# SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate



## The SC

Due to some wide spread information on many sites and in the specialized media about the possibility of Pakistan acquiring the 5th generation Chinese (/Pakistani?) stealth fighter jet, and the communality of their future engine the WS-13. I have decided to open this thread for serious discussions about the plane, its capabilities, the possibilities, and the probability of acquiring it by PAF, knowing that PAF has not been operating, or reluctant to operate twin engined warplanes.
My personal opinion is that the maintenance won't be a big hurdle since PAF will be maintaining only one type engine for both JF-17 and J-31.



























An article in the People’s Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. *The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter*, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S.’ F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be China’s next carrier-borne fighter.

“Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35,” the People’s Daily report said, noting also that competition to sell the fighter jets to international customers was “becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game.”

The report added that, “The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a serious threat to U.S. arms manufacturers.” Later in the same article, however, People’s Daily noted that the plane’s landing gear was built to sustain the impact of landing on a carrier better than the current J-15s, and therefore might be used as China’s future carrier-based jet.

One possibility is that China is building both a domestic and export version of the aircraft. Some foreign news outlets have indeed said that China may sell a version of the aircraft abroad under the name F-60, while maintaining a fleet of domestic J-31s for the PLA.

With so little known about the J-31, it’s hard to gauge how credible China’s claims are that the J-31 is a low-cost alternative to the F-35. In a report in Defense News last August, shortly after the first few images of the plane surfaced, Project 2049 Institute’s Robert Cliff dismissed the notion that the J-31 would pose a serious threat to the F-35 in terms of overseas sales.

““India won’t buy it. Russia won’t buy it,” Cliff noted, adding: “That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next.”

He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane.

*Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter*. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry.

J-21 J-31 stealth fighter jet : 空军世界

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

I believe it will be a mix of 4th generation stealth fighter and a fully 5th Generation stealth fighter, according to the pictures above.

What is your take?

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## The SC

The possible weapons configurations.






















So, it is about the same principle of the US F-35, for internal/external weapon's carriage.

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## The SC

Size matters:
With J-20




With J-16





It is also about the same size as the F-35, although with twin engines, while the f-35 is sigle engined.
Is it an advantage?

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## The SC

*Prototypes of J-11B and J-31/ F60 Fighter Jets in Flight*




The J-31 sleekness






Amazing fact: India's A-MCA looks strangely like the JF-17, albeit with double engines !!! Seeing all their criticism of the JF-17 I wonder if it is by ignorance of this resemblance for their futuristic fighter plane. This shows that PAF's JF-17 has some very sound design, adaptable to future design requirements of stealth fighters.

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## I <3 PAK ARMY

nyce


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## Kompromat

Its certainly a very good option for PAF.


Same class of engines as JFT
TOT
Same class of weapons as JFT
Possibility of sharing or seeding software 
Shared datalink with JFT

These jets given their reliable performance may start replacing our F-16s.

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## The SC

*Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter*
Shenyang offers a low-observable fighter that, for some reason, does not satisfy the Chinese air force

As much as the resources wielded by the Chinese state aerospace industry impress outsiders these days, few could have expected that one of the companies in the sector would want to produce a stealth fighter on its own account.
But that is just what Shenyang Aircraft wants to do. Equally surprisingly, the Chinese air force is turning its nose up at the result. What looks like a thoroughly modern stealth fighter is apparently not good enough to serve as China's next medium-weight combat aircraft.

After three evidently staged appearances of the real aircraft this year, Avic displayed a model at Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, displaying the fighter that is unofficially called the J-31 and known to come from Shenyang. The aircraft is being developed “for the international defense market,” says Avic.

The model was labeled as a concept fighter, but it showed few if any differences from the real aircraft that appeared first under wraps on a truck in June, then being pulled around an airfield in September and, finally, on Oct. 31, in the air, prominently numbered “31001” and possibly making its first flight. It is clear, then, that the project has transcended the concept stage.

The aircraft has been designed to deliver a highly stealthy configuration at low cost, with a heavy weapons load capability over a wide combat radius, says Avic. The model is a single-seat, twin-tail, twin-engine aircraft with a high wing, like the real aircraft seen in unattributed photographs on the Internet. As described at the show, the fighter has a typical takeoff weight of 17.5 metric tons, is 16.9 meters (55.5 ft.) long and 4.8 meters high with a wingspan of 11.5 meters.





The aircraft that flew last month has two Klimov RD-93 engines, which project engineers do not regard as sufficiently powerful, industry executives say. As fitted to the JF-17 (or FC-1) single-engine export fighter from Shenyang's rival, Chengdu Aircraft, the RD-93 produces 19,000 lb. thrust. Regardless of the RD-93's power, Shenyang needs a Chinese engine if it is to avoid Russia holding a veto over J-31 sales. Judging from photographs of the prototype, the nacelles may be designed for engines larger in diameter than the RD-93, a derivative of the MiG-29's RD-33. The alternative may be the reported WS-13 Taishan from the Guizhou plant of propulsion specialist Avic Engine.

Avic says the J-31 has a combat radius of 1,250 km (780 mi.) on internal fuel or 2,000 km with external tanks. Maximum speed is Mach 1.8, takeoff distance is 400 meters and its landing distance 600 meters.

“Operational effectiveness will be higher than current or upgraded fourth-generation fighters or almost equivalent to typical fifth-generation,” says Avic. The reference to fifth-generation aircraft presumably indicates the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35.

The J-31 is known to come from Shenyang because the company displayed a flyable model of a similar fighter last year with the designation F-60 and because a wrapped object that was presumably the real aircraft was trucked in June from Shenyang to Xian, where China has a flight-test center.

The designation “J-31” may be no more valid than the widely assumed but unconfirmed moniker “J-20” applied to a larger fighter from the Chengdu fighter works. The Shenyang aircraft is also sometimes called J-21—again, without any certain validity. The J-20 was revealed in late 2010 and appears to have made its first flight in January 2011. It was not promoted at Zhuhai.

And therein lies a key piece of evidence of the status of the J-31. The J-20 was not at Zhuhai because it is not for sale and because China does not want to reveal too much about it. It is intended for the Chinese air force.

Conversely, because the J-31 was exhibited at Zhuhai and is promoted as an export product, the Chinese air force obviously does not want it. Early production of a fighter intended for Chinese service would be reserved for the air force, as has been Chengdu's J-10, the current Chinese medium-weight fighter.

Why, then, has Shenyang developed it? There are a few possibilities. It could be a technology demonstrator funded by the military, one that the company's management thinks has good potential for full development as an operational fighter.

Alternatively, it could be an internally funded program for the export market, as the company seems to suggest, encouraged by the knowledge that not all countries have access to Western fighters. The J-31 would mainly be a competitor to Russian fighters—though Shenyang might also be calculating that buyers of Western equipment will want more choice as some U.S. and European types go out of production over the next decade or two. Importantly, the Chinese fighter should be cheap, as the JF-17 is, while offering at least the prestige of stealth technology.

Shenyang is working on China's ship-borne fighters, raising the possibility that the J-31 was at one time intended for the newly commissioned aircraft carrier Liaoning and its successors. If so, it probably is not now destined for such service, since the navy, like the air force, would not want to exhibit an aircraft that it intended to operate.

The difference in the sizes between the J-20 and J-31 indicates that they have probably not been designed for the same requirement. Moreover, Avic makes no mention of any domestic use for the aircraft.

A foreign aerospace executive with insight into Shenyang and the wider Chinese industry has perhaps the simplest explanation for the J-31's existence: “This is the program of a company that has more engineers than it knows what to do with.”





While a prototype or technology demonstrator is flying, a key question is whether much progress has been made in developing low-observability features that are easily maintained and do not encumber the aircraft with much weight. An even greater challenge for Shenyang and its suppliers to overcome is fitting the aircraft with electronic systems that merge the inputs from various sensors to give the pilot situational awareness. Avic's statement that the aircraft will offer capability “almost equivalent” to the latest U.S. fighter suggests that it aims to go some way in that direction.

And yet that could all be far away. There is a world of difference between, on the one hand, flying an aircraft that from the outside looks like a fighter and, on the other, building an operational combat aircraft. The F-35 will go into service almost 20 years after the first flight of its X-35 technology demonstrator. Similarly, Shenyang may so far have little more than a bare aircraft that an “export” customer would be expected to help fully develop, or at least fund, as Pakistan has with the JF-17.

Avionics immaturity may be the reason why the J-31 is an export-only aircraft, even though it seems well-sized as a successor to the Chinese air force's J-10 and as a cheaper, large-production complement to the J-20. The air force may well have decided that Chinese industry has enough of a challenge in improving the J-10 and integrating systems for the J-20. But yet another possibility is that Shenyang or Chengdu is cooking up something more advanced than the J-31. With no clear answer, that probably remains the key mystery about the J-31: Why does the Chinese military not want it?

Reviewing the J-31's configuration, it appears that the designers have aimed for an aircraft that has stealth but also conventional fighter versatility, and they are not trying to achieve supersonic flight without afterburning, as the F-22 does. The choice of a quad aft-tail arrangement—two horizontal and two vertical stabilizers—indicates the designers wanted to combine low radar reflectivity with high angles of attack and therefore easier handling in combat, which that would have been hard to do with a canard configuration.

The aft-tail layout also puts hard points close to the center of gravity, probably making the carriage of stores easier and thereby promoting versatility. Photographs of the aircraft at an airfield in September revealed the doors of a large ventral weapons bay.

The model has only moderate sweep on the leading edge of the J-31's wing. To minimize radar reflections, air inlets for the engines have no boundary-layer diverter plates. The nose volume is not large, leaving room for only a modestly sized radar antenna.

For all its habitual secretiveness, the Chinese military displayed two recent attack helicopters at Zhuhai for the first time. One of these was the Z-10 (or WZ-10), which Chinese media suggest is sized between the Eurocopter Tiger and Boeing AH-64 Apache. It is a product of the Changhe works of Avic rotary-wing specialist Avicopter.

The other was the Z-19, an adaptation of the Z-9 and, ultimately, Eurocopter AS352 Dauphin, but with a new fuselage and tandem seating. As a Dauphin derivative, the aircraft should have a gross weight of 4-5 tons, making it somewhat smaller than the Z-10. Harbin Aircraft, also part of Avicopter, builds the Dauphin derivative. It did so originally under a license that Eurocopter says has expired.

Both attack helicopters are powered by Chinese engines, says Avic. The Z-10, at least, has reportedly been fitted with foreign engines during development.

Harbin has also developed an attack version of the Z-9 that retained the bulky cabin of the original utility helicopter. The Chinese army allowed rare close inspection of a recent version, the Z-9WZ in July. 

Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Bias, jealousy? The helicopters too, were on the Zhuhai air show, how come the Chinese military still wants them? and not the J-31 for the simple reason that they were shown in the show with the possibility of an export version !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Icewolf

Pakistan will definently no doubt get this bird

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## TOPGUN

Looks like the best option for us , lets see what the future holds .

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## rockstar08

this will be best possible option for us in future , but i think we will see what happen after Jf-17 block 3 start producing

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## Cyberian

Can't imagine Pakistan buying a Chinese fighter aircraft that the Chinese won't buy themselves unless it's designed specifically for Pakistan like the FC-1 Fierce Dragon / JF-17 Thunder.

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## Kompromat

SUPARCO said:


> Can't imagine Pakistan buying a Chinese fighter aircraft that the Chinese won't buy themselves unless it's designed specifically for Pakistan like the FC-1 Fierce Dragon / JF-17 Thunder.



Chinese Navy will buy it.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions

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## Dr. Strangelove

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions


100 % is not viable 
we dont have the ability to build engines 
if we opt for it it will be mix of western avionics and chinese systems


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The ideal scenario would be we get the TOT and Production line , and wait untill Chinese perfect their local engines and then make a switch

Engines construction should be not an issue provided we setup a local program to reverse engineer available engine components we have all the tools when needed

J-31 would be a big scalp of action

However, I do feel that China will need itself 500-700 jets in stealth category so we are better off tarketing J11 class Air-Air role fighters in mean while

This plane is ideal for China / Pakistan for strategic needs

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## Cyberian

Horus said:


> Chinese Navy will buy it.



Any confirmed deal?


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## desimorty

TOT is not possible. Not just because Pakistan industry is lacking but because those engines used on the J-11 copies aren't copies but licence productions from Russia and they are still working out the quality control issue perhaps in the tooling. Same said for the engines on this particular aircraft. RnD is expensive, ToT is cheaper and effective. You'll have to go the Russians for the engines, however its best to walk before you run, especially when you don't have large resources.
That being said, why would Pakistan buy this fighter? Its logical, the engines are quick to go so the fighter will be a great interceptor but twin engine fighter costs more in every spectrum. This may sound like a good idea from defense perspective but financially when Pakistan has already put in so much for the JF-17 I don't see this happening. PAF should be concerned with internal issues now and CAS for the frontier. Going up against the IAF especially in the future seems futile especially when they can hit your airbases in short notice. Bulk of the defense budget should be used for denial, ie Army, SAMs and Submarines.


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## MilSpec

Looks really good, i am amazed at the speed at which Chinese Engineers have designed and developed this....Great job..

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## HariPrasad

Good luck to Pakistan. When are you getting this plane?


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## PakEye

Good Wishes for your wishes
i tink. twin engine fighter is not in list of PAF

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## monitor

For reliable sanction free option is J-31 . other option like TFX still far from reality and getting F-35 will be unlikely and costly for Pakistan so PAF should concentrate its effort to get this baby by 2020 -2023 with TOT


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## Basel

What configuration is posted of this bird if its true PAF may not go for it until they customize it as per their needs, PAF will not want JF-17s engine in a 5th gen plane, because it will be short legged like Mig-29s and those engines will not provide IR / Heat signature stealth from back of the plane which is a must for 5th gen plane to be stealth.


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## Storm Force

Loving the J31 what a beauty

Hate and admire the chinease 

PAF is very lucky to have this option


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## Basel

This bird is for PLAN so PAF may not even go for it as China have more 5th gen projects to offer Pakistan exclusively like JF-17 project.


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## desimorty

> This bird is for PLAN so PAF may not even go for it as China have more 5th gen projects to offer Pakistan exclusively like JF-17 project.
> 
> Source: Shenyang J-31 5th generation fighter for Pakistan | Page 2


Like the J-20? Unlikely as the turnaround time for those engines powering the J-11s and J-20 prototypes is high. PAF likes these engines on the JF-17 which is why it was chosen over the J-10. Even though less thrust and consumes more fuel than the GE 404 its the turnaround time that PAF wants. Geographically Pakistan is NOT China. PAF does NOT have the luxury of times if any air force enters their airspace. j-31 would be great option, but financially? Does the PAF still believe in trying to counter IAF 1 vs 1? Not going to happen soon. If they want to deter IAF, then the JF-17 in numbers is a great option keeping in mind the IAF will have Raffles, Flankers and Migs for many decades to come. Will work well for airdefence. However, if the stealth features or the J-31 are good, then it may be better. But right now the stealth on the J-31 is not worth it. Still in the prototype stage though, wait n watch to see how it evolves. Building prototypes is easy, but takes time for flight testing especially the launch bays.


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## tarrar

Still a very long way to go for J31 & J20.

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## Max Pain

HariPrasad said:


> Good luck to Pakistan. When are you getting this plane?



2030 would be a good year to induct them, hopefully the economy is better by then and our traditional competitor (India) wouldve inducted their own 5th Gen jet by then.

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## The Great One

sandy_3126 said:


> Looks really good, i am amazed at the speed at which Chinese Engineers have designed and developed this....Great job..


You mean the amazing speed at which they added an engine to the stolen F-35 design.

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## Cherokee

The Great One said:


> You mean the amazing speed at which they added an engine to the stolen F-35 design.



Even to steal you require brain . Tum me hai , tum bhi kar lo , kaun rok raha hai ?

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## The Great One

Cherokee said:


> Even to steal you require brain . Tum me hai , tum bhi kar lo , kaun rok raha hai ?


I'm just giving credit where it's due.

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## Irfan Baloch

sandy_3126 said:


> Looks really good, i am amazed at the speed at which Chinese Engineers have designed and developed this....Great job..


nothing beats an Indian papdum. beautiful to look at and has great taste specially due to the hollowness and the trapped air.

this plane?also looks good.. rest ? maybe Toba Tek Singh will have more clue whats inside and if it makes the outlook? dont want to down play the Chinese though.. the plane flies .. now thats something.


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## MilSpec

The Great One said:


> You mean the amazing speed at which they added an engine to the stolen F-35 design.


Only if stealing design was that easy....give credit where due


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## The Great One

sandy_3126 said:


> Only if stealing design was that easy....give credit where due


Giving links I believe is quite unnecessary given the obvious physical similarities





but still.
Top Official Admits F-35 Stealth Fighter Secrets Stolen « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> nothing beats an Indian papdum. beautiful to look at and has great taste specially due to the hollowness and the trapped air.
> 
> this plane?also looks good.. rest ? maybe Toba Tek Singh will have more clue whats inside and if it makes the outlook? dont want to down play the Chinese though.. the plane flies .. now thats something.


The time taken for them to deliver the prototype surpasses everytimeline, right from the french, brits, americans, probably could be only comparable to the russians in thier heydays. 

I do not know about the what's inside, but they are known to have had good experience in building avionics for fc20, fc1, f7, jh7's, and along with the j20 proto's. There is nothing to suggest they would be lacking in the avionics side.



The Great One said:


> Giving links I believe is quite unnecessary given the obvious physical similarities
> View attachment 119012
> 
> but still.
> Top Official Admits F-35 Stealth Fighter Secrets Stolen « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


Sorry then, you know more i guess...


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## Irfan Baloch

sandy_3126 said:


> The time taken for them to deliver the prototype surpasses everytimeline, right from the french, brits, americans, probably could be only comparable to the russians in thier heydays.
> 
> I do not know about the what's inside, but they are known to have had good experience in building avionics for fc20, fc1, f7, jh7's, and along with the j20 proto's. There is nothing to suggest they would be lacking in the avionics side.
> 
> 
> Sorry then, you know more i guess...


dont know man.. it seems like a sausage factory.
do note though
experts in the west acknowldge the chinese ability to make exotic designs and tehcnology which closely resembles the latest Western designs but that only stops at tech demonstrator and prototypes, they cat carry it to the serial production. 

they lack the technology for that and cant successfully source all the elements needed to make mass production without getting the attention fo the West that promptly punishes its companies and confiscates the parts being illegally smuggled to china or puts a ban on them even if they are commercial with duel military usage. (case in point Z-10 .. when its news broke out for the first time.. the hammer fell on many western companies).


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## IceCold

Why is it that Pakistanis are always interested in Imaginary things?


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## Munir

The Chinese are busy with stealth, not copying 70-'era design that is a simplified delta... And even then in a much smaller and lighter form. Everything is known by having mirage2000H for decades. Nothing is new or remarkable...

If the J31 is so easy to do when seeing not operational not known plane like JSF... Why is India not busy with F22 copy? They cannot produce a prop trainer. They never could handle something that big.

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## fatman17

everyone 'copies and steals with pride' - mantra of the world these days.

the J31 will be a reality and even if its 80% of what a F35 can do, it would be a threat to many airforces.


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## volatile

Munir said:


> If the J31 is so easy to do when seeing not operational not known plane like JSF... Why is India not busy with F22 copy? They cannot produce a prop trainer. They never could handle something that big.



Well Said!!!! Here every one makes claim about producing what ever 100 year advance tech is doing specially Indian`s i dont know what they have been drinking lately but it`s not building a model or some thing its proper performance plan .I bet India cant even produce F-16 performance fighter which is 1970`s era fighter.


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## Mav3rick

The SC said:


> I believe it will be a mix of 4th generation stealth fighter and a fully 5th Generation stealth fighter, according to the pictures above.
> 
> What is your take?



The Chinese 'generation' of Jets is a step different to the global 'generation'. The Chinese consider the JF-17, J-10B etc as 3rd Generation of Jets. It is their own measurement of generations and has nothing to do with global understanding or marking of generation. The Chinese consider the J-20 and J-31 as 4th generation of fighter jets.


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## aamerjamal

The Great One said:


> Giving links I believe is quite unnecessary given the obvious physical similarities
> View attachment 119012
> 
> but still.
> Top Official Admits F-35 Stealth Fighter Secrets Stolen « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


i think u don't know a s**t about the stealth design,,, just ask any Indian member that for stealth design for a single minor change required extensive study, here we are talking about one with single engine while other have twin.... do you think its like walk in the park?
btw did you ever notice the similarities in your junk and mirage planes?

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## RAMPAGE

The SC said:


> Size matters


Jeeeez !!!


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## RKO

aamerjamal said:


> i think u don't know a s**t about the stealth design,,, just ask any Indian member that for stealth design for a single minor change required extensive study, here we are talking about one with single engine while other have twin.... do you think its like walk in the park?
> btw did you ever notice the similarities in your junk and mirage planes?


ignore him man! Chiness have done a great job so far! Even if it is stolen..it does'nt really matter..atleast they did!

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## Super Falcon

I hope pakistan buy them on stage bases 10 to 12 in first batch after 2 years go for 20 to 30 by doing that we dont have more headache of finance and by time we get more advance blocks too


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## cirr

It is hoped that Pakistan would take a serious interest in v2.0 of the plane which is scheduled for unveiling in 2015.

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## 帅的一匹

RKO said:


> ignore him man! Chiness have done a great job so far! Even if it is stolen..it does'nt really matter..atleast they did!


steal? try to steal one for me. you shall get a filter on those brain to mouth stuff


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## RKO

wanglaokan said:


> steal? try to steal one for me. you shall get a filter on those brain to mouth stuff


im not a hacker...china got the best hackers in the world!!!!


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## 帅的一匹

RKO said:


> im not a hacker...china got the best hackers in the world!!!!


USA got the best hackers in the world, we may rank in top five.


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## graphican

pakeye said:


> Good Wishes for your wishes
> i tink. twin engine fighter is not in list of PAF


According to my learning, twin-engine platform was in the list of PAF and it was mentioned that it will be procured after 2018. Could it be J-31? There is a more chance for it than not.



The Great One said:


> Giving links I believe is quite unnecessary given the obvious physical similarities
> View attachment 119012
> 
> but still.
> Top Official Admits F-35 Stealth Fighter Secrets Stolen « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary



May be Chinese wanted to build something similar to F-35 but they later found their own design is even better and went along that route. Chinese are known to walk on the "two legs", they plan for the success as well as failure. This is also something which I have learned from Chinese fellows and employed in my professional life

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## The SC

fatman17 said:


> everyone 'copies and steals with pride' - mantra of the world these days.
> 
> the J31 will be a reality and even if its 80% of what a F35 can do, it would be a threat to many airforces.



The French were the most active in industrial espionage in the US during the 70's and 80's ( and probably still doing it).
Just follow on the history of the F-16 and the all of a sudden Rafale design, I was amazed at the resemblance when it came out.

The J-31 won't have only some of the F-35 capabilities, but some of the F-22 too, which make it truly original with a combination of some very potent technologies and capabilities. It is a fighter plane that is optimized (by discarding all the shortcomings of both American stealth planes) to handle the jobs of a 4++ and a 5th generation fighter. China is being pragmatic, knowing that not everyone has worldwide interests to defend, it has concentrated on the best possibilities for a potent stealth fighter with potent capabilities. The F-31 was not designed to exactly match the F-35 or the F-22, but certainly to have some of their best characteristics in stealth technology and avionics combined, but not to the point where the US is (or still experimenting)... for the moment!

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## nomi007

1st impressive flight video of j-31
http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0423/v...5uZXQCL3Bvc3RfODM3Mzk1OF8xLmh0bWw=&bc=&type=0

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## princefaisal

J-31 is a very capable aircraft for Pakistan but it needs to mature further and will thus require at least 7 to 10 years to be operationally ready. Pl note that we had been discussing the procurement of J-10 for Pakistan since 2003 (or before) and after passing more than 10 years, it's not inducted in PAF yet but we are still expecting more mature & advance technology to be incorporated into it. Technology upgrade is mandatory but quantity gap should also be considered.

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## The SC

*




*

*



*

*New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests*

The J-31 continues flight testing at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation research facility in northern China. As China's second fifth generation fighter, the J-31 makes China the second nation in the world, after the United States, to have flown two fifth generation fighters. With a length of about 17 meters and an 11.5m wingspan, the J-31 is about the size of the F-35 Lightning II and smaller than the F-22, J-20 and PAK-FA. A large model of the J-31, designated as "F-60", appeared at the Zhuhai 2012 Airshow, indicating a Chinese willingness to export the J-31 as a international competitor to the F-35. Once it enters service, the J-31 is likely to be serve alongside less numerous J-20s as part of a "high/low" combination, similar to the F-35/F-22 mix in the US Air Force. The J-31 is also likely to serve aboard future Chinese aircraft carriers, greatly enhancing their capabilities. * Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer for the J-31*, as Islamabad hopes to counter the Indian purchase of Russian FGFA stealth fighters. 

The J-31 "Gyrfalcon" stealth fighter reportedly uses technology from the J-19, Shenyang's failed bid for the Chinese heavy 5th generation fighter (which the Chengdu J-20 won). The J-31 has conducted at least six test flights in Shenyang since fall 2012 and a second prototype is under assembly. Compared to censorship of some J-20 photos, there is less secrecy about the J-31's development. 

To save weight, the J-31 uses an immense number of of 3D laser printed components, including titanium wing spars. Compared to the F-35, the J-31 uses two smaller Russian RD-33 engines instead of a larger engine like the AL-31 or WS-10. This gives the J-31 a flatter fuselage than the F-35; which suggests a more pronounced air superiority focus for the J-31, since a flatter fuselage results in a smaller weapons bay but improves fuel efficiency and speed by decreasing drag. It is likely that the J-31 could carry larger missiles like the YJ-12 anti-ship missile under its wings, but like with the F-35, at the cost of stealth. Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the Russian MiG aircraft design bureau, has praised the J-31 as a "well done indigenous design" and "good machine" resulting from China's ambitious aviation industry. 

New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests | Popular Science

Many reports state that it will be ready in 2 to 3 years, which means that by 2018 to 2020 Pakistan can get its first squadrons of the J-31, the likelihood of Pakistan inducting them is quite big, since it has decided to skip the J-20s all together to wait for this stealth plane.
While I consider a 100 of these jets to constitute a good detterent, what is your take on this?

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## The SC

Pakistanis will work harder to acquire anything of their desire, they know it and they have proven it too.
In fact, the J-31 will be inducted in PAF sooner than anyone can believe or imagine it. The same as the 6 new Qing class All electric and AIP Submarines.

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## UKBengali

The J-31 is likely to come into service around 2020 with the WS-13A engine producing 10,000kg of thrust. 

It will only be able to fulfil it's true potential when, middle of next decade, the definite 5th generation engine with 11-12000kg of thrust is ready.

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## DirtyCop

What do you mean by "Pakistani j-31" As of know its not even certain whether it will enter serial production or not. And here you have even set grounds for stealthy dog fights between PAF and IAF.

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## The SC

UKBengali said:


> The J-31 is likely to come into service around 2020 with the WS-13A engine producing 10,000kg of thrust.
> 
> It will only be able to fulfil it's true potential when, middle of next decade, the definite 5th generation engine with 11-12000kg of thrust is ready.


2020 is a pessimistic prediction, almost all experts convene to it to be ready in 2 to 3 years.The American F-35 took 7 to 8 years from initial tests to mass production (and still testing). The J-31 initial test (maiden flight) was in 2012, and due to the speed of which China can produce any weapon system, with the help of it super computers and 3d printing now a days, we can expect the J-31 to be ready in 2018. WS-13 or 13 A is already under tests with the J-10s, and at least the WS-13 went into production. But still Pakistan can power its J-31s with the Klimov engines in the mean time, or as from these known facts, their will be no need for Russian engines by that time.



DirtyCop said:


> What do you mean by "Pakistani j-31" As of know its not even certain whether it will enter serial production or not. And here you have even set grounds for stealthy dog fights between PAF and IAF.



There is a tip, and it is the skipping of the J-10B induction, eventhough one squadron was offered to Pakistan for free, or as a gift from China... The only other alternative on hand is the J-31 offered for export, it reminds one of the JF-17, although there is no evidence of PAF involvement in the project of the J-31, many reports state that some PAF engineers were participating in the project. Considering the low amount of money India had put down (a few hundred million dollars, less than $300 m as a down payment) for its participation in the Russian PAK-FA program, one can anticipate that Pakistan can also participate with a low down payment in a Chinese program of its interest.

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## Viking 63

PAF will acquire 2 sqrds for sure. In my opinion in next 5-7 years.

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## TOPGUN

One can take it all the way to the bank that these babies will be in PAF's hands very soon , just watch and see GOD is great.

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## GreenFalcon

DirtyCop said:


> What do you mean by "Pakistani j-31" As of know its not even certain whether it will enter serial production or not. And here you have even set grounds for stealthy dog fights between PAF and IAF.


Nice try Mr.India

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## DirtyCop

GreenFalcon said:


> Nice try Mr.India


Insult me again like that and I'll unload a truck of obscenities on you.

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## GreenFalcon

DirtyCop said:


> Insult me again like that and I'll unload a truck of obscenities on you.

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## Kompromat

We need to save up till 2020-2022 then acquire these jets in strong numbers.

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## GreenFalcon

Horus said:


> We need to save up till 2020-2022 then acquire these jets in strong numbers.


Yeap, if Our JF-17s' production continues on track, then we don't need to purchase any other fighters until this bad boy is ready

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## rockstar08

yeah sure , that will be a good induction in PAF ..... till than we still need a new platform in our inventory , we just cant rely on F-16s and Jf's .......... we need a heavy Fighter at least 50 of them ... and SAM"S too ..
but this bird is very potent to counter any threat IAF can pose till 2025 ...

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## HAIDER

As long as its running on AL31 Pakistan won t get it. Same story with J10 Pakistan deal was, because India raise the objection export of AL31. AL31 is backbone of Indian top of line aircraft fleet. Plus we are broke , a nation don t believe in paying taxes.

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## Irfan Baloch

DirtyCop said:


> Insult me again like that and I'll unload a truck of obscenities on you.


hi Indian friend, 
don't you think India should not allow the sale of this fighter to Pakistan because it has AL31 engine?

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## HRK

HAIDER said:


> As long as its running on *AL31*



RD-93

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## Max Pain

DirtyCop said:


> What do you mean by "Pakistani j-31" As of know its not even certain whether it will enter serial production or not. And here you have even set grounds for stealthy dog fights between PAF and IAF.


*now


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## The SC

HAIDER said:


> As long as its running on AL31 Pakistan won t get it. Same story with J10 Pakistan deal was, because India raise the objection export of AL31. AL31 is backbone of Indian top of line aircraft fleet. Plus we are broke a nation don t believe in paying taxes.


If all Pakistanis see the urgent need to acquire any potent system to counter a threat to their survival, they will start paying taxes (if they really aren't) and even gathering funds for their armed forces to buy, produce or both any needed gear.

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## ANG

Hi, this is the pre-demo practice flight of the J-31 for Zuhai 2014. This programs seems to be progressing well. It current uses two RD-93 engines; the same engine used for the JF-17. In addition, it is planned to use the WS-13 on it in the future. The WS-13 is the Chinese engine fitted to the JF-17.






Guizhou WS-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I think J-31 is a good candidate for Pakistan to counter Indian's 5th gen. fighter, of course there is also F-35 out there if Pakistan can get it. I don't know if Pakistan airforce has already defined the requirements for it own 5th gen. The sooner the better to get all desirable features of the 5th aircraft ready, and see if J-31 can be buit specific to Pakistan need because any change to an aircraft could take alot of time....of course this is only the feasibility phase of the project, that doesnt mean Pakistan need to commite anything to J-31.

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## Max Pain

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I think J-31 is a good candidate for Pakistan to counter Indian's 5th gen. fighter, of course there is also F-35 out there if Pakistan can get it. I don't know if Pakistan airforce has already defined the requirements for it own 5th gen. The sooner the better to get all desirable features of the 5th aircraft ready, and see if J-31 can be buit specific to Pakistan need because any change to an aircraft could take alot of time....of course this is only the feasibility phase of the project, that doesnt mean Pakistan need to commite anything to J-31.



Indeed, however we are already too worked up on JF-17, its already facing too many delays, Ive waited the whole year for Block 2 and im still waiting and look at you guys, the maiden flight of J-31 an amazing 5th Gen Jet was held in 2012 and look at this platform now, its maturing in a very fast pace, with regards to pace you guy did surpass F-35 which already took like 7-8 years for testing. what im trying to say is that you guys have an abundance of funds while we drastically lack in that aspect.as much as id love to see the J-31 in Pakistani colors it'll take a lot of time to induct it.we first have to fulfill our need of 250 thunders which is gonna take a lot of time if this pace goes on,lets hope our economy improves and somehow the pace increases and then we might see this beauty in our Air force.you every cooperation is deeply appreciated here in Pakistan.

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## Shinigami

i once unknowingly bought a chinese copy of beats headphones. lasted just 2 weeks.

learned the hard way to never buy chinese copies for the rest of my life

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## Max Pain

Shinigami said:


> i once unknowingly bought a chinese copy of beats headphones. lasted just 2 weeks.
> 
> learned the hard way to never buy chinese copies for the rest of my life



did you ever learned anything about trolling?
or do you like it the hard way, cuz I sure see a lot of trolls eventually getting banned.

speaking of a lasting product, heard the Su-30 mki is grounded. is everything ok?

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## Arya Desa

I'm just praying pakistan buys these in bulk.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Max Pain said:


> Indeed, however we are already too worked up on JF-17, its already facing too many delays, Ive waited the whole year for Block 2 and im still waiting and look at you guys, the maiden flight of J-31 an amazing 5th Gen Jet was held in 2012 and look at this platform now, its maturing in a very fast pace, with regards to pace you guy did surpass F-35 which already took like 7-8 years for testing. what im trying to say is that you guys have an abundance of funds while we drastically lack in that aspect.as much as id love to see the J-31 in Pakistani colors it'll take a lot of time to induct it.we first have to fulfill our need of 250 thunders which is gonna take a lot of time if this pace goes on,lets hope our economy improves and somehow the pace increases and then we might see this beauty in our Air force.you every cooperation is deeply appreciated here in Pakistan.


 
when the economic corridor is completed, I hope it will boost Pakistan economy and make it prosper. Once secure all the fund you need for the defense, you will have no problem to procure the J-31, and I'm eager to see J-31 with Pakistan's flag too

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## Max Pain

Shinigami said:


> i swear it actually happened. maybe it has yet to happen to a PAF official
> 
> SU30 grounding is a safety precaution. i think investigations are still ongoing



lets keep the fingers crossed then,
safety precautions do get a hold when a jet crashes for unknown reasons.


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## NKVD

The SC said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests*
> 
> The J-31 continues flight testing at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation research facility in northern China. As China's second fifth generation fighter, the J-31 makes China the second nation in the world, after the United States, to have flown two fifth generation fighters. With a length of about 17 meters and an 11.5m wingspan, the J-31 is about the size of the F-35 Lightning II and smaller than the F-22, J-20 and PAK-FA. A large model of the J-31, designated as "F-60", appeared at the Zhuhai 2012 Airshow, indicating a Chinese willingness to export the J-31 as a international competitor to the F-35. Once it enters service, the J-31 is likely to be serve alongside less numerous J-20s as part of a "high/low" combination, similar to the F-35/F-22 mix in the US Air Force. The J-31 is also likely to serve aboard future Chinese aircraft carriers, greatly enhancing their capabilities. * Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer for the J-31*, as Islamabad hopes to counter the Indian purchase of Russian FGFA stealth fighters.
> 
> The J-31 "Gyrfalcon" stealth fighter reportedly uses technology from the J-19, Shenyang's failed bid for the Chinese heavy 5th generation fighter (which the Chengdu J-20 won). The J-31 has conducted at least six test flights in Shenyang since fall 2012 and a second prototype is under assembly. Compared to censorship of some J-20 photos, there is less secrecy about the J-31's development.
> 
> To save weight, the J-31 uses an immense number of of 3D laser printed components, including titanium wing spars. Compared to the F-35, the J-31 uses two smaller Russian RD-33 engines instead of a larger engine like the AL-31 or WS-10. This gives the J-31 a flatter fuselage than the F-35; which suggests a more pronounced air superiority focus for the J-31, since a flatter fuselage results in a smaller weapons bay but improves fuel efficiency and speed by decreasing drag. It is likely that the J-31 could carry larger missiles like the YJ-12 anti-ship missile under its wings, but like with the F-35, at the cost of stealth. Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the Russian MiG aircraft design bureau, has praised the J-31 as a "well done indigenous design" and "good machine" resulting from China's ambitious aviation industry.
> 
> New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests | Popular Science
> 
> Many reports state that it will be ready in 2 to 3 years, which means that by 2018 to 2020 Pakistan can get its first squadrons of the J-31, the likelihood of Pakistan inducting them is quite big, since it has decided to skip the J-20s all together to wait for this stealth plane.
> While I consider a 100 of these jets to constitute a good detterent, what is your take on this?


Even if they acquired it which I don't see it in coming it before 2025 or beyond in PAF which too in limited numbers because of the PAF budget constraints.Paf current budget is not more than 3 billion which peanut in comparison of modern Airforces like SA or turkey I don't think CCP will sell there prime technology so easily without proper cash.but I believe PAF will acquire it in future but not before 2025.well it just my opnion other members may have different view points that mine.


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## Max Pain

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> when the economic corridor is completed, I hope it will boost Pakistan economy and make it prosper. Once secure all the fund you need for the defense, you will have no problem to procure the J-31, and I'm eager to see J-31 with Pakistan's flag too



true. couldnt agree with you more, However it takes huge sincere efforts to replenish the economy and it'll take time but lets hope that does happen cuz its gonna be a pretty sight our defense budget is quite big for a country with such an economy.as soon as the economy prospers it'll have positive effect on the defense budget as well.

oh the picture you attached is a joy to watch, J-31 is going to drastically neutralize the upper hand of Indians when it comes to capable aircrafts.it'll balance the odds


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## HariPrasad

I had came across an article in none other than Chinese media terming J 31 as a very bad plane.


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## JonAsad

Irfan Baloch said:


> thank you my RAW agent friend. do bring* your wife and my children* to my house some time we will have some party together and talk about Balochistan air force.

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## Max Pain

NKVD said:


> Even if they acquired it which I don't see it in coming it before 2025 or beyond in PAF which too in limited numbers because of the PAF budget constraints.Paf current budget is not more than 3 billion which peanut in comparison of modern Airforces like SA or turkey I don't think CCP will sell there prime technology so easily without proper cash.but I believe PAF will acquire it in future but not before 2025.well it just my opnion other members may have different view points that mine.



since you put it that way, we respect your opinion. however I personally think we might get it around 2022,
this platform is maturing drastically.once its up for export and mass production, the cost might decrease a bit.
yet what you said is quite correct to some extent.


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## Max Pain

HariPrasad said:


> I had came across an article in none other than Chinese media terming J 31 as a very bad plane.


please do share it here,
btw evolving platforms often face many issues in preliminary stages.


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## HariPrasad

Max Pain said:


> please do share it here,
> btw evolving platforms often face many issues in preliminary stages.




Article is on PDF itself . Pl search.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Some J-31 prototypes have been started to test with the WS-13A engine, but our goal is to fit it with the next generation WS-17 engine.

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## Max Pain

HariPrasad said:


> Article is on PDF itself . Pl search.


sure.


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## ChineseTiger1986

HariPrasad said:


> I had came across an article in none other than Chinese media terming J 31 as a very bad plane.



Except F-22/J-20/T-50/F-35, I don't think there are other aircrafts could be superior to J-31.

Just face the truth, J-31 is a real 5th gen aircraft which is now demonstrating its F-22-ish supermaneuverability for the Zhuhai airshow.

The countries like Japan and Korea are still making their so-called 5th gen aircraft on the paper, but nobody is bashing these flightless toys, so why J-31 is getting such unfair treatment?

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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> We need to save up till 2020-2022 then acquire these jets in strong numbers.


This seems to be the idea. Keep the focus on JF17 future blocks, try bring it to a 4+ generation level with better avionic, EW suite, radars, engine, payload, essentially take it to a new level and do it all in-house keeping the foreign exchange spending to a minimum. A few used F-16 here and there and get to post 2020 scenario and go for the fifth generation planes. this is the reason that supposedly dropped FC20 from PAF procurement list. Lets hope our economy is in comparatively better shape by that time.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Arsalan said:


> This seems to be the idea. Keep the focus on JF17 future blocks, try bring it to a 4+ generation level with better avionic, EW suite, radars, engine, payload, essentially take it to a new level and do it all in-house keeping the foreign exchange spending to a minimum. A few used F-16 here and there and get to post 2020 scenario and go for the fifth generation planes. this is the reason that supposedly dropped FC20 from PAF procurement list. Lets hope our economy is in comparatively better shape by that time.



J-17 is to boost Pakistan's indigenous aerospace industry, so it is a bad idea to keep working on it before getting J-31.


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## UKBengali

Pakistan needs to purchase 150 J-31s in order to be able to neutralise Indian air-superiority.


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## Max Pain

UKBengali said:


> Pakistan needs to purchase 150 J-31s in order to be able to neutralise Indian air-superiority.



we wont have the money to do so.
lets be a bit realistic.

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## Shinigami

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except F-22/J-20/T-50/F-35, I don't think there are other aircrafts could be superior to J-31.
> 
> Just face the truth, J-31 is a real 5th gen aircraft which is now demonstrating its F-22-ish supermaneuverability for the Zhuhai airshow.
> 
> The countries like Japan and Korea are still making their so-called 5th gen aircraft on the paper, but nobody is bashing these flightless toys, so why J-31 is getting such unfair treatment?






demonstrating its F-22-ish supermaneuverability? seems barely a loop. its nowhere near an f22






or even an Indian made MKI

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## ChineseTiger1986

Shinigami said:


> demonstrating its F-22-ish supermaneuverability? seems barely a loop. its nowhere near an f22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or even an Indian made MKI



J-31 is still a prototype, so it is nowhere as good as F-22, but I see its supermaneuverability better than those of MKI.

Now MKI is grounded, so I don't think that you should throw it out.


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## Shinigami

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-31 is still a prototype, so it is nowhere as good as F-22, but I see *its supermaneuverability better than those of MKI*.


i seriously doubt  although i am impressed it can do barrel rolls


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now MKI is grounded, so I don't think that you should throw it out.


safety procedure. happens in a real airforce

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## ChineseTiger1986

Shinigami said:


> i seriously doubt  although i am impressed it can do barrel rolls



Stop insisting this pointless argument, it is a 5th gen aerodynamic frame design versus a 4th gen aerodynamic frame design, so it is quite obvious who is superior.

You may even insist that MKI is superior to J-20, that's your problem, but it won't change the reality.

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## Shinigami

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Stop insisting this pointless argument, it is a 5th gen aerodynamic frame design versus a 4th gen aerodynamic frame design, so it is quite obvious who is superior.
> 
> You may even insist that MKI is superior to J-20, that's your problem, but it won't change the reality.


the only advantage a 5th gen airframe has over a 4th gen one is stealth, not maneuverability.

regarding j20 vs MKI, unless the J20 stealth is near american levels, its obvious who is the winner. just check up all the parameters. not to mention one is a prototype while the other is operational for a decade in large numbers


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## ChineseTiger1986

Shinigami said:


> the only advantage a 5th gen airframe has over a 4th gen one is stealth, not maneuverability.
> 
> regarding j20 vs MKI, unless the J20 stealth is near american levels, its obvious who is the winner. just check up all the parameters. not to mention one is a prototype while the other is operational for a decade in large numbers



J-20 right now is using the 155kN WS-10G, even it is still slightly inferior to the F119, but much more than the normal AL-31 using by MKI.

Both are around 40 tons, so J-20 is much more supermaneuverable.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Shinigami said:


> the only advantage a 5th gen airframe has over a 4th gen one is stealth, not maneuverability.
> 
> regarding j20 vs MKI, unless the J20 stealth is near american levels, its obvious who is the winner. just check up all the parameters. not to mention one is a prototype while the other is operational for a decade in large numbers



You're just upset that no one is talking about getting the LCA. 

Even the Indian Airforce doesn't want the LCA.

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## birju

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Apparently the world disagrees.
> 
> We already sell our planes on a large scale.
> 
> But who on Earth will even think about buying the LCA? Even you admitted that it is crap, and that's the only thing India is capable of making.



But you ...... predictably..... will not admit that JF-17 and J-10 are crap because even countries close to China like Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and lastly Egypt and Iraq all opted for Russian warplanes like Mig-29 and SU-30s but not JF-17s and J-10s. All these countries selected to buy these Russian planes after rejecting Jf-17 and J-10.

Which plane of the J-10 and Jf-17 have you sold on a large scale and to which country other than Pakistan?????

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## || |\| ||)) || /\\ |\|

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yet every manufactured product in the world is made in China, or has something to do with China.
> 
> From both high end goods to low end goods.
> 
> What does India make?
> 
> Even India's own PC market is dominated by Lenovo, which is the number 1 PC maker in the world.
> 
> That's one of the reasons India has such a huge trade deficit to China, because you can't make your own stuff. The LCA is a prime example, which was rejected even by your own Air Force.



Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud. 

There are a lot things made in India as well, like the name of your country and culture for one


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## cirr

J-21 mock-up on display：







SAC 31001 is a tech demonstrator. The above is a model for the J-21 prototype.

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## cirr

The real thing out in 2015.

Our Indian friends will likely stare at the beauty then with their eyeballs protruded out.

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## ChineseTiger1986

cirr said:


> J-21 mock-up on display：
> 
> View attachment 147852
> 
> 
> SAC 31001 is a tech demonstrator. The above is a model for the J-21 prototype.



J-31 will eventually use the flat nozzle, since it is China's mature TVC technology.

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## Shinigami

cirr said:


> The real thing out in 2015.
> 
> Our Indian friends will likely stare at the beauty then with their eyeballs protruded out.


why admire the duplicate when the original looks so much better?


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## Chinese-Dragon

|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\| said:


> Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud.
> 
> There are a lot things made in India as well, like the name of your country and culture for one



What is your country famous for on the international media?

Oh yes, "rape capital" and "open defecation capital". Not my words, that's from the international media.

And still Indians buy so much Chinese products that they are in a huge deficit to us.

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## OrionHunter

The SC said:


> Many reports state that it will be ready in 2 to 3 years, which means that by 2018 to 2020 Pakistan can get its first squadrons of the J-31, the likelihood of Pakistan inducting them is quite big, since it has decided to skip the J-20s all together to wait for this stealth plane.
> While I consider a 100 of these jets to constitute a good detterent, what is your take on this?


Firstly, what is the flyaway cost? Add to that the life cycle costs and it would cost a bomb.

Considering your suggestion of buying 100 off the shelf, it would put you down by at least $6 billion at about $60 million a pop at discounted rates that China usually gives to Pakistan! It'll probably cost more. Add to that the life cycle costs and it would add up to at least $10-15 billion *at today's rates!* That's a lot of dosh.

Secondly, it would be overambitious to presume that the J-31 would be fully operational within 2-3 years. It would take at least 5 years more after which the PLAF would have first priority for induction. That would take another 4 to 5 years before they have sufficient quantity for export.

So, it comes about that it would be at least 10 years before China can commence exports to Pakistan, or not before 2025! And by then add inflationary costs and the package would probably double to a whopping $20-25 billion!

Or am I missing something here?


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## Ultima Thule

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-31 will eventually use the flat nozzle, since it is China's mature TVC technology.


J-31 is far looking better than J-20 in the term of rear RCS, far far better than J20


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## || |\| ||)) || /\\ |\|

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What is your country famous for on the international media?
> 
> Oh yes, "rape capital" and "open defecation capital". Not my words.
> 
> And still Indians buy so much Chinese products that they are in a huge deficit to us.




The topic was military equipment and how China is known for producing crap. But if you wanna know what else you're known for such as "eating fetesus" and "dogs, cats, lizards, trash, and God knows that else" I'd be happy to post some links

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## Chinese-Dragon

|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\| said:


> The topic was military equipment and how China is known for producing crap. But if you wanna know what else you're known for such as "eating fetesus" and "dogs, cats, lizards, trash, and God knows that else" I'd be happy to post some links



LOL you mean the disproven urban legend? Try asking for that in a restaurant in China, and you'll be arrested. 

The topic is about the J-31, China's new generation stealth fighter. And Pakistan wanting to buy it. Not crap like the LCA, which even the IAF doesn't want.

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## birju

Chinese airforce bought J-7s, a 50-year old Mig21 copy well into the years leading upto 2003-5 but does that make a Chinese Mig-21 it any superior to Su-27s which China first received in 1992?????


Chinese armed forces are known to buy indigenous Chinese crap like Chinese copies of ancient 50-year old Soviet aircraft like AN-12, An-26, Mig-21 (J-7), Mig-23 J-8II to sanitize the image of Chinese weapons but buyer countries are not fooled by this hideous treachery. With an economy 5 times greater than Russia since at least 2000, they even could not come up with their own equal performance missile and copied Brahmos/Russian Onyks missile after TWO DECADES in 2014. 

In 2006, they found Il-76 not "up to Chinese requirements" and "too expensive" but had no problem buying crappy and much less efficient Y8/Y12 and they want other countries to buy crappy Chinese goods at higher prices so that the Chinese nation can sustain itself. 

The Chinese believe they are entitled to higher prices for their commodities no matter what they produce.


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## Rajaraja Chola

The aircraft is in testing phase, and everyone are talking of buying J31 and comparing it with F35 . I mean guys, the aircraft doesnt have the 5th gen engine, which the F22 and F35 has, along with the combination of electronics in both birds.. 
The Russians are working on the 5th gen engine to be outfitted on Pakfa , and thats why it takes some time.. And I guess, until such time Russians dont succeed in it, the Chinese would be forced to use 4th gen engine on its 5th gen fighters. (If you know what I mean  ) 
J31 is a good platform, its going to be a decent 5th gen fighter. But comparing with F35 is a joke (for now)

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## Ultima Thule

Rajaraja Chola said:


> The aircraft is in testing phase, and everyone are talking of buying J31 and comparing it with F35 . I mean guys, the aircraft doesnt have the 5th gen engine, which the F22 and F35 has, along with the combination of electronics in both birds..
> The Russians are working on the 5th gen engine to be outfitted on Pakfa , and thats why it takes some time.. And I guess, until such time Russians dont succeed in it, the Chinese would be forced to use 4th gen engine on its 5th gen fighters. (If you know what I mean  )
> J31 is a good platform, its going to be a decent 5th gen fighter. But comparing with F35 is a joke (for now)


most reasonable post by an indian, for electronic wise J-20 and J-31 is far far behind from F-22/F-35 but for the engine wait some more year i think it will be reaveld in 2016 or17 we might see LOAN type nozzle just like F-22 have,
as for your information in the starting of a ATF program sevral design presented to pentagon just like J-20/J-31, i mean today J-20/J-31 have a frontal stealth and less on a rear


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## Skywalker

Shinigami said:


> i seriously doubt  although i am impressed it can do barrel rolls
> 
> safety procedure. happens in a real airforce


When did your real airforce realized that...after loosing about 500 aircrafts and unknown number of pilots.

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## Skywalker

|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\| said:


> Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud.
> 
> There are a lot things made in India as well, like the name of your country and culture for one


Yet people can't live without china......even your own prime minister dieting to improve trade...what a hypocrite.

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## Skywalker

birju said:


> Indians do not eat meat curry which contains private parts of animals filled with sperms or intestines which are not properly washed and are still filed with goat or cow excreta which are very much appreciated in Pakistani kebab and curry dishes. Intestines filled with excreta are not a part of Indian curry dishes unlike some very popular Pakistani dishes and no amount of cleaning or washing will remove the complete presence or smell of excreta from the intestines and we know how some Pakistanis wash their meat.
> 
> Going to a rat temple is far more preferable than seeing happily while sitting near an animal and see it being slaughtered and praying and thanking God when an innocent animal is being slaughtered.


What a bunch of lies....should I start naming restaurants in India where your fellow countrymen come and eat same meat belongings to animals filled with sperms and intestines...and talking about sperms after having a population of 1300 millions, don't look good.

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## Spy Master

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except F-22/J-20/T-50/F-35, I don't think there are other aircrafts could be superior to J-31.
> 
> Just face the truth, J-31 is a real 5th gen aircraft which is now demonstrating its F-22-ish supermaneuverability for the Zhuhai airshow.
> 
> The countries like Japan and Korea are still making their so-called 5th gen aircraft on the paper, but nobody is bashing these flightless toys, so why J-31 is getting such unfair treatment?


I had came across an article says that China is not Willing to sell J-20 to even Pakistan which is superior than J-31? Could you tell us what is the reason behind this or the article was just BS??

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## forcetrip

Rajaraja Chola said:


> The aircraft is in testing phase, and everyone are talking of buying J31 and comparing it with F35 . I mean guys, the aircraft doesnt have the 5th gen engine, which the F22 and F35 has, along with the combination of electronics in both birds..
> The Russians are working on the 5th gen engine to be outfitted on Pakfa , and thats why it takes some time.. And I guess, until such time Russians dont succeed in it, the Chinese would be forced to use 4th gen engine on its 5th gen fighters. (If you know what I mean  )
> J31 is a good platform, its going to be a decent 5th gen fighter. But comparing with F35 is a joke (for now)



This is how things are done when tech or production of a component is out of reach at the moment. Granted that engines are the most important component but waiting for it to be done till you start on other things seems like a waste of time. You can believe me that they are working on those engines you speak of. They will be happy and proud of even flying a 3rd generation plane with the potential of becoming a 5th generation one rather than waiting on having everything at once. The amount of research and knowledge they have gained by jumping into and flying this project is immense. The Russians are doing the same thing. This is what should have been done with the LCA as well.


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## AwA.

cirr said:


> J-21 mock-up on display：
> 
> View attachment 147852
> 
> 
> SAC 31001 is a tech demonstrator. The above is a model for the J-21 prototype.



Do you have more pix of this model? Is this pic taken at Zhuhai air show 2014?


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## rockstar08

every tech needs time to evaluate .. even F-35 and F-22 are unproven platforms ... let the time pass, but at least china has taken fine steps towards modernizing their fleet with J-10's J-11's , J-15's , J-31's and J-20 ... they are learning and learning fast about Electronics and Engines , its just matter of time they will be in market like Russians , WEst and US ... every tree is just a plant in the beginning

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## UKBengali

Max Pain said:


> we wont have the money to do so.
> lets be a bit realistic.





Let us say that China sells each J-31 to Pakistan for 75 million dollars.Chinese will allow favourable terms and will be more than happy to spread the cost in equal installments over the say 2020-2030 period of induction.

150 aircraft will cost around 10 billion dollars and spread over ten years it comes to 1 billion dollar a year.

Pakistan defence budget is capable of this purchase if it is made a PRIORITY.


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## Max Pain

UKBengali said:


> Let us say that China sells each J-31 to Pakistan for 75 million dollars.Chinese will allow favourable terms and will be more than happy to spread the cost in equal installments over the say 2020-2030 period of induction.
> 
> 150 aircraft will cost around 10 billion dollars and spread over ten years it comes to 1 billion dollar a year.
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is capable of this purchase if it is made a PRIORITY.



come to think of it,yeah youre quite right.it will however take 15-20 years approx.


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## SrNair

J20 is more indigenous than j31.
Those J 31 seems to be a direct copy of F 35.
Anyway J 31 is a good evolving fighter.But comparing it with F 35 or F22 is a joke. Americans have top notch futuristic technologies.Russians only issue is their lack of money or they are the only one that can compete American Aero industry .Chinese are not developed that much .Perhaps in future.
Pakistan will induct these fighters and probably J 20 also.But they will get a decent squadron only after 2025.Prime reason is it is still developing and till now Chinese fighters didnt face a real war scenario.Then more tests is needed.
And at last maintaining afifth generation fighter need deep pockets.Pakistan can do it only if they speed up their economy as soon as possible.
Lets see.


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## DirtyCop

Max Pain said:


> *you* every cooperation is deeply appreciated here in Pakistan.


*YOUR


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## SrNair

UKBengali said:


> Let us say that China sells each J-31 to Pakistan for 75 million dollars.Chinese will allow favourable terms and will be more than happy to spread the cost in equal installments over the say 2020-2030 period of induction.
> 
> 150 aircraft will cost around 10 billion dollars and spread over ten years it comes to 1 billion dollar a year.
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is capable of this purchase if it is made a PRIORITY.



10 billion for 150 fifth generation fighters .What type of fifth generation is that?
Even Chinese would be ashamed if they saw your golden scripts.
We are talking about a fifth generation fighter not barbie dolls.
During 2020-30 timeline cost of a decent fifth gen fighter would be 150 million$ for one fighter ,even Chinese cant reduced from it.

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## UKBengali

sreekumar said:


> 10 billion for 150 fifth generation fighters .What type of fifth generation is that?
> Even Chinese would be ashamed if they saw your golden scripts.
> We are talking about a fifth generation fighter not barbie dolls.
> During 2020-30 timeline cost of a decent fifth gen fighter would be 150 million$ for one fighter ,even Chinese cant reduced from it.



Dude, I am talking at today's prices. As prices rise for arms and so a country's GDP also rises.

Consider the cost of F-15 was around 20 million each in the 1980s. They now come in at 100 million each 30 years later. Indian economy in nominal terms is nearly TEN times larger than it was 30 years ago and hence F-15 has become more affordable over time for it.

Probably Pakistan won't grow as fast as India but it will grow quickly enough that any increase in the J-31 price will be compensated by increased GDP.

J-20 is estimated to be 100 million dollars each, current prices, and J-31 will be cheaper at around 75 million dollars.

Current flyaway cost of F-35 is a little under 100 million each and so 75 million for each J-31 is reasonable.

Need any further teaching today?

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## Cat Shannon

Skywalker said:


> When did your real airforce realized that...after loosing about 500 aircrafts and unknown number of pilots.



hey man, we fly our own plnes and fly them long, unlike you who has to train them on US maintained gulf countries birds.

500 aircrafts ? why not 500 a month ?


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## Cat Shannon

UKBengali said:


> Dude, I am talking at today's prices. As prices rise for arms and so a country's GDP also rises.
> 
> Consider the cost of F-15 was around 20 million each in the 1980s. They now come in at 100 million each 30 years later. Indian economy in nominal terms is nearly TEN times larger than it was 30 years ago and hence F-15 has become more affordable over time for it.
> 
> Probably Pakistan won't grow as fast as India but it will grow quickly enough that any increase in the J-31 price will be compensated by increased GDP.
> 
> J-20 is estimated to be 100 million dollars each, current prices, and J-31 will be cheaper at around 75 million dollars.
> 
> Current flyaway cost of F-35 is a little under 100 million each and so 75 million for each J-31 is reasonable.
> 
> Need any further teaching today?



you are pulling numbers out of your @ss... and comparing two completely unrelated things (gdp and the price of an aircraft ) and teaching that to people online. lolwa means...total lolwa.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

birju said:


> But you ...... predictably..... will not admit that JF-17 and J-10 are crap because even countries close to China like Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and lastly Egypt and Iraq all opted for Russian warplanes like Mig-29 and SU-30s but not JF-17s and J-10s. All these countries selected to buy these Russian planes after rejecting Jf-17 and J-10.
> 
> Which plane of the J-10 and Jf-17 have you sold on a large scale and to which country other than Pakistan?????


 
Simply because not alot of nation get used with China made airplane, they're more familiar with Russian plane but in the furture Chinese Jets will be sold like "Xiaome" cell phone sold into India...After using Chinese product for the first time, they will automatically remove psychological barrier and feel comfortable with it.

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## SrNair

UKBengali said:


> Dude, I am talking at today's prices. As prices rise for arms and so a country's GDP also rises.
> 
> Consider the cost of F-15 was around 20 million each in the 1980s. They now come in at 100 million each 30 years later. Indian economy in nominal terms is nearly TEN times larger than it was 30 years ago and hence F-15 has become more affordable over time for it.
> 
> Probably Pakistan won't grow as fast as India but it will grow quickly enough that any increase in the J-31 price will be compensated by increased GDP.
> 
> J-20 is estimated to be 100 million dollars each, current prices, and J-31 will be cheaper at around 75 million dollars.
> 
> Current flyaway cost of F-35 is a little under 100 million each and so 75 million for each J-31 is reasonable.
> 
> Need any further teaching today?



Did you read my post ?
Talking about F 35 .F 35 is funded by entire NATO nation and entire NATO and their Asian allies would induct it.
So cost will naturally come down when their export increases.
Cost will vary due to flyaway cost and lifecycle cost .Your price tag of 75 million was the real price of EFT when we started MMRCA now its cost is around 130 million$ keep in mind that it is a 4.5 gen only .
Now talking about exporting of J 31.Exporting will be purely business oriented and Chinese are known for their business .No nation can bleed their economy and business in the name of all weather friendship.
If Chinese dont get essential market like that of F 35 got .Price will again increase and inflation at that time would be mind boggling.At any case they cant reduce its pricetag below that of 140 million and I am being generous here.
Now ypu should have an economy having 8+ GDP(for Pakistan it might be 10+) and US not gonna give you aid for this luxury.
I dont try to teach you.I dont have time for that.


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## jkroo

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Simply because not alot of nation get used with China made airplane, they're more familiar with Russian plane but in the furture Chinese Jets will be sold like "Xiaome" cell phone sold into India...After using Chinese product for the first time, they will automatically remove psychological barrier and feel comfortable with it.


Indian really like Xiaomi and Huawei smartphone. I am astonished when I visited flipkart. If you check the Huawei honor 6 page, you will be convinced.

I read some news that it says J31 will SOP in 5 years and the engine will be matured in 2 years, lets wait and see.

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## monitor

India eventually would have a fleet of 800+ aircraft compose of 4.5 and 4.5++ and fifth generation fighter to counter this future threat Pakistan should have a good number of J-31 along with other option would be available after 2020 like TFX KFX etc . if Pakistan can manage to induct 100 J-31 along with 250+ JF-17 and 100+ F-16 and other option i think enough to counter the invading Indian air force considering Pakistani pilots quality and home grounds advantage as the will be supported by the Air defense network .


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## UKBengali

sreekumar said:


> Did you read my post ?
> Talking about F 35 .F 35 is funded by entire NATO nation and entire NATO and their Asian allies would induct it.
> So cost will naturally come down when their export increases.
> Cost will vary due to flyaway cost and lifecycle cost .Your price tag of 75 million was the real price of EFT when we started MMRCA now its cost is around 130 million$ keep in mind that it is a 4.5 gen only .
> Now talking about exporting of J 31.Exporting will be purely business oriented and Chinese are known for their business .No nation can bleed their economy and business in the name of all weather friendship.
> If Chinese dont get essential market like that of F 35 got .Price will again increase and inflation at that time would be mind boggling.At any case they cant reduce its pricetag below that of 140 million and I am being generous here.
> Now ypu should have an economy having 8+ GDP(for Pakistan it might be 10+) and US not gonna give you aid for this luxury.
> I dont try to teach you.I dont have time for that.



You don't understand mathematics. Not many people do and so don't feel bad about it.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rajaraja Chola said:


> The aircraft is in testing phase, and everyone are talking of buying J31 and comparing it with F35 . I mean guys, the aircraft doesnt have the 5th gen engine, which the F22 and F35 has, along with the combination of electronics in both birds..
> The Russians are working on the 5th gen engine to be outfitted on Pakfa , and thats why it takes some time.. And I guess, until such time Russians dont succeed in it, the Chinese would be forced to use 4th gen engine on its 5th gen fighters. (If you know what I mean  )
> J31 is a good platform, its going to be a decent 5th gen fighter. But comparing with F35 is a joke (for now)


 
Fair enought, J31 is still a developping aircraft, it's too earlier to compare with F-35 without a proper 5th gen engine, and i dont want to bragg any further beyong this point. But on this 5th gen aircraft market, there is only few choice availalble F-35, J31, India's version of PakFA. Pakistan can only chose between F-35 and J-31, politically J-31 is not an restriction for Pakistan and will definitely much more cheaper while F-35 will be problem because India will do everything it could to block it.

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## Gandhara

cirr said:


> The real thing out in 2015.
> 
> Our Indian friends will likely stare at the beauty then with their eyeballs protruded out.



propaganda and marketing tricks are well understood by everyone, as an Indian the more I see chinese propaganda pics the more I understand chinese psychology, 
actually we Indians in general are not that image conscious like chinese, may be because chinese communist govt. has put the concept of victimization in your state media,education<foreigners deceived you, foreigners raped, killed you> so its perfectly understood chinese are show offs like they are desperately trying to impress west<leave defense I remember the Olympic episode when a small photogenic chinese girl was put in front of camera when a not so photogenic girl was the voice behind the song>, so chinese can put as much as propaganda pics or marketing pics but no defense enthusiast is going to take them at face value when only nations who buys these chinese copy products are mostly economically backward nations who buy these weapons on soft loans given by chinese themselves.
So to answer your question no I am not impressed Mr, cirr.

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## Yeti

Unproven fighters can not be measured only when they face a real air fight can their worth be measured!


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## Yeti

It is why fighters like the legendary F16, F15 go into the history books because they proved their merit in countless wars as did the Mig 29 which in India's hands in Kargil did a marvellous job.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Yeti said:


> Unproven fighters can not be measured only when they face a real air fight can their worth be measured!


 
At least we're not measuring from paper, we have a prototype and it's flying high

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## Yeti

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> At least we're not measuring from paper, we have a prototype and it's flying high



Yes but the bird is unproven it has never faced a real combat experience so it remains untested as do it's credentials.


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## Max Pain

jkroo said:


> Indian really like Xiaomi and Huawei smartphone. I am astonished when I visited flipkart. If you check the Huawei honor 6 page, you will be convinced.
> 
> I read some news that it says J31 will SOP in 5 years and the engine will be matured in 2 years, lets wait and see.



even Im a fan of Huawei, my Current phone is also from Huawei

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Yeti said:


> It is why fighters like the legendary F16, F15 go into the history books because they proved their merit in countless wars as did the Mig 29 which in India's hands in Kargil did a marvellous job.


 
That's total bullshit, US have huge support behind F-16 and F-15 sucess, they have AWAC, satellite spy and communication, all kind of force multipliers to ensure the flawless victory and wihtout saying that they have best research facility and training to make the pilot the best of the best...so all the success should not contribute to F-!6 and F-15 along.


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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> Yes but the bird is unproven it has never faced a real combat experience so it remains untested as do it's credentials.



there are many other jets that never faced any combat, they're unproven too right?
even Rafale is in that list and you guys are going to but that unproven platform.

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## Yeti

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> That's total bullshit, US have huge support behind F-16 and F-15 sucess, they have AWAC, satellite spy and communication, all kind of force multipliers to ensure the flawless victory and wihtout saying that they have best research facility and training to make the pilot the best of the best...so all the success should not contribute to F-!6 and F-15 along.




Well duh this is 2015 of course you have force multipliers, India itself has the Israeli phalcon awacs! but a untested fighter is still untested it has not witnessed any real combat.

China can 'claim' this is the best fighter in the world but the proof is in the pudding! until it actually proves its merit it will never be legendary or have a cult status like the F16. F15 or the Sukhoi's.


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## Max Pain

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> That's total bullshit, US have huge support behind F-16 and F-15 sucess, they have AWAC, satellite spy and communication, all kind of force multipliers to ensure the flawless victory and wihtout saying that they have best research facility and training to make the pilot the best of the best...so all the success should not contribute to F-!6 and F-15 along.



dont worry, we're gonna use the J-31 in combat scenarios once we get our hands on it,
we always have some terrorist hideouts to bomb

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## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> there are many other jets that never faced any combat, they're unproven too right?
> even Rafale is in that list and you guys are going to but that unproven platform.



Well no the Rafale has been tested in the recent Libyan conflict.


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## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> dont worry, we're gonna use the J-31 in combat scenarios once we get our hands on it,
> we always have some terrorist hideouts to bomb



testing bombs on some rats in the desert is hardly proving combat worth, a fighter will be measured when it goes into battle against other similar fighters.


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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> Well no the Rafale has been tested in the recent Libyan conflict.


really? you might wanna mention some links, it'll back your argument.
can you say the same about raptor?
or for that matter, MKI ?


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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> testing bombs on some rats in the desert is hardly proving combat worth, a fighter will be measured when it goes into battle against other similar fighters.



yet there have been jets that failed even that.

as years pass buy all the the new jets will be unproven platform since the prospect of wars decreases.
wars have become too expensive now.


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## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> really? you might wanna mention some links, it'll back your argument.
> can you say the same about raptor?
> or for that matter, MKI ?



Raptor I believe did see combat in the Iraq war because of it's stealth features as for the MKI it is a upgraded version of the Sukhoi family which has seen combat also.


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## Yeti




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## jkroo

Max Pain said:


> even Im a fan of Huawei, my Current phone is also from Huawei


I am also a fan of Huawei, I have Ascend D2 and P6. I ordered Honor 6 today to replace P6 which can access 4G network. Huawei's phone is good.
For your information, Huawei's flag smartphone Honor 6 and Ascend Mate 7's sales performance is very good in China and even in Europe. That's proved enough.

Some industries are matured in China now, I hope aviation industry can be matured soon for the huge investment.


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## Max Pain

jkroo said:


> I am also a fan of Huawei, I have Ascend D2 and P6. I ordered Honor 6 today to replace P6 which can access 4G network. Huawei's phone is good.
> For your information, Huawei's flag smartphone Honor 6 and Ascend Mate 7's sales performance is very good in China and even in Europe. That's proved enough.
> 
> Some industries are matured in China now, I hope aviation industry can be matured soon for the huge investment.




i have Honor 3C and im quite satisfied with it.
the phones you mentioned are even better.

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## SrNair

UKBengali said:


> You don't understand mathematics. Not many people do and so don't feel bad about it.



Yes .You are right .I cant understand your seventh grade mathematics pulling out from your a** .


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## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> yet there have been jets that failed even that.
> 
> as years pass buy all the the new jets will be unproven platform since the prospect of wars decreases.
> wars have become too expensive now.



But they can also prove their merit in 'war games' so if this fighter does take part in a war game against other fighters we will have a better idea of it's effectiveness and it's weaknesses.


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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> Raptor I believe did see combat in the Iraq war because of it's stealth features as for the MKI it is a upgraded version of the Sukhoi family which has seen combat also.



Neither Raptor nor MKI have seen real combat,
lets be rational, youre trying to make a point but this aint the right way,
i can tell you about many good jets that have seen no combat action,
its a real booster but its not the only scale to judge an Aircraft.


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## AMDR

Yeti said:


> Raptor I believe did see combat in the Iraq war


Yes it did see combat against ISIS in syria

ISIS command post in Raqqah before and after a F-22 strike


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## Secret Service

yeah its true ... these are confirmed reports but kept secret.Pakistan will get these jets by 2022


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Yeti said:


> Yes but the bird is unproven it has never faced a real combat experience so it remains untested as do it's credentials.


 
By your logic, we dont need to develop new fighters, WW1 and WW2 fighters have more proven combat experience and we might as well stick with those antiquated design such as bi-plane and tri-plane...LMAO

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## Yeti

Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22

Bear in mind India did not switch on it's BARS radar for this exercise.


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## Basel

NKVD said:


> Even if they acquired it which I don't see it in coming it before 2025 or beyond in PAF which too in limited numbers because of the PAF budget constraints.Paf current budget is not more than 3 billion which peanut in comparison of modern Airforces like SA or turkey I don't think CCP will sell there prime technology so easily without proper cash.but I believe PAF will acquire it in future but not before 2025.well it just my opnion other members may have different view points that mine.



Basically J-31 is not funded by Chinese Govt. or any of their forces it is build & funded by Shenyang and Like FC-1 they need foreign partner for it and for Chinese companies Pakistan is number one when it comes to have foreign partners. JF-17 project is a success for CAC and that is why SAC is also hopeful that PAF may look into it for its 5th gen needs and if PAF goes for it it will be much different as FC-1 and JF-17s are very different planes specially from inside.

Pakistan must keep working to develop JF-17 further as FGFA is at least way till 2025, therefore no need to worry, and PAF must develop a stealthy version of JF-17 as Advance Super Hornet is developed it will narrow the gap between IAF & PAF.

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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> But they can also prove their merit in 'war games' so if this fighter does take part in a war game against other fighters we will have a better idea of it's effectiveness and it's weaknesses.



the fighters that are a part of war games used to be unproven platforms too,
dont worry, our J-31 will also be a part of any war game when its the right time, a jet not participating in combat wont make it any less important, we'll pursue it despite that.


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## Yeti

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> By your logic, we dont need to develop new fighters, WW1 and WW2 fighters have more proven combat experience and we might as well stick with those antiquated design such as bi-plane and tri-plane...LMAO



No my logic states this plane remains untested! it has neither taken part in any air war game to judge it's character! so until it actually does it will always remain a fighter which will be mysterious regardless of it's so called 5th gen features and design.


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## Max Pain

AMDR said:


> Yes it did see combat against ISIS in syria
> 
> ISIS command post in Raqqah before and after a F-22 strike
> View attachment 148044



when did that happen? a month ago I presume.


----------



## Max Pain

Basel said:


> Basically J-31 is not funded by Chinese Govt. or any of their forces it is build & funded by Shenyang and Like FC-1 they need foreign partner for it and for Chinese companies Pakistan is number one when it comes to have foreign partners. JF-17 project is a success for CAC and that is why SAC is also hopeful that PAF may look into it for its 5th gen needs and if PAF goes for it it will be much different as FC-1 and JF-17s are very different planes specially from inside.
> 
> Pakistan must keep working to develop JF-17 further as FGFA is at least way till 2025, therefore no need to worry, and PAF must develop a stealthy version of JF-17 as Advance Super Hornet is developed it will narrow the gap between IAF & PAF.



the very presence of J-31 will narrow the odds.


----------



## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> No my logic states this plane remains untested! it has neither taken part in any air war game to judge it's character! so until it actually does it will always remain a fighter which will be mysterious regardless of it's so called 5th gen features and design.



there are many jets that might as well wont see any action.this wont make em any less potent.


----------



## Basel

birju said:


> But you ...... predictably..... will not admit that JF-17 and J-10 are crap because even countries close to China like Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and lastly Egypt and Iraq all opted for Russian warplanes like Mig-29 and SU-30s but not JF-17s and J-10s. All these countries selected to buy these Russian planes after rejecting Jf-17 and J-10.



Both planes are not crap, the reason is both still use Russian engine and China is now lagging in engine tech, when China started fielding its jet with its own developed and build quality engines there will be different story of selling those jets.


----------



## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> there are many jets that might as well wont see any action.this wont make em any less potent.




But we do not really know how 'potent' they are that is my point yes the fighter might have a real 5th gen design with stealth features which you would like to believe would give it a edge but there is no certainty it can win everytime. Only when this bird has matured enough and has taken part in some air exercises can we start to understand it's dynamics.


----------



## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> But we do not really know how 'potent' they are that is my point yes the fighter might have a real 5th gen design with stealth features which you would like to believe would give it a edge but t*here is no certainty it can win everytime.* Only when this bird has matured enough and has taken part in some air exercises can we start to understand it's dynamics.



the same holds true for even the aircrafts that have seen combat action.
There is no certainty that any aircraft will win every time.


----------



## Yeti

Basel said:


> Both planes are not crap, the reason is both still use Russian engine and China is now lagging in engine tech, when China started fielding its jet with its own developed and build quality engines there will be different story of selling those jets.




I believe Egypt opted for the MIG35 which is a upgraded bird and now has smokeless engines and some 5th gen features.


----------



## AMDR

Max Pain said:


> when did that happen? a month ago I presume.


You are correct sir, September 23
U.S. Military Releases Video Of F-22 Strike Against ISIS - Yahoo News

Waiting to see J-31 drop munitions, I haven't seen any testing pictures yet. Will be interesting the new ground attack weapons the Chinese develop for j-31


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## Basel

@Max Pain J-31 will be more expensive then stealthy JF-17, and even after induction of few squadrons of J-31 PAF will still need a stealthy work horse which can break through Indian air defense castle which is very well guarded now.


----------



## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> the same holds true for even the aircrafts that have seen combat action.
> There is no certainty that any aircraft will win every time.



That is true as force multipliers play a big role in todays conflict


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## Basel

Yeti said:


> I believe Egypt opted for the MIG35 which is a upgraded bird and now has smokeless engines and some 5th gen features.



China also can offer J-10B with AESA and 5th gen tech but it is still flying with Russian engine and Chinese engine is not available for export that is why China is not being able to sell its new birds till now.


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## Max Pain

Basel said:


> @Max Pain J-31 will be more expensive the a stealthy JF-17, and even after induction of few squadrons of J-31 PAF will still need a stealthy work horse which can break through Indian air defense castle which is very well guarded now.



a stealthy JF-17 is quite hypothetical to be honest,that would require some huge R&D infrastructure, as time passes the higher share of JF-17 project will be in Pakistan's hands, we just cant develop a stealth technology, it really sophisticated.
the best chance we have is that once we receive some J-31's we might get to know some ins and outs of Stealth technology and we somehow incorporate it in some God knows what block of JF-17.

its just a hypothetical scenario.


----------



## Yeti

Basel said:


> China also can offer J-10B with AESA and 5th gen tech but it is still flying with Russian engine and Chinese engine is not available for export that is why China is not being able to sell its new birds till now.




China's is a newcomer in the AESA business and the yanks are streets ahead and I believe the Russians are also with the SU35 which the Chinese are keen to get their hands on. Again we do not know how good the J10B AESA is.


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Yeti said:


> No my logic states this plane remains untested! it has neither taken part in any air war game to judge it's character! so until it actually does it will always remain a fighter which will be mysterious regardless of it's so called 5th gen features and design.


 
J-31 was designed base on the 5th gen design concept and requirement such as stealthyness, none a fresh new design fighter have combat experience especially when it's still at the development stage, but with the physical caracteristcs such speed, turn rate, climb rate...radar cross section on the spec sheet...any experienced fighter pilot can still judge if the aircraft is still up for the task that they're asking even before put it into real combat.


----------



## Gandhara

including combat proven one thing we should also look into
from which legacy the fighter is coming

rafale comes from legacy of mirage
f-22/35 comes from legacy of famous teens
pak fa comes from legacy of sukhois

j-31/j-20 from sukhoi legacy copies j-11/12/15/16 or j-7/j-10???
j-10 comes from lavi design
jf-17 comes from mig-33 design
both of above don't use chinese engines


----------



## Yeti

It’s too early to tell the true status of the Chinese AESA program,” says a Washington-based intelligence official. “We’ve seen lots of press and air show information on the program, but that doesn’t automatically translate into a robust development or give us an accurate look at where [China] is as far as fielding one anytime soon.
“Like the [high-performance] engine, it’ll be a challenge to take the step from older radars to one designed for a fifth-generation fighter,” he says. “Again, though, the J-20 is just the first or second—depending on whom you believe—prototype in a very long development program.”


China’s Stealth Aircraft Program Will Face Advanced Defenses | AWIN content from Aviation Week


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## Basel

Max Pain said:


> a stealthy JF-17 is quite hypothetical to be honest,that would require some huge R&D infrastructure, as time passes the higher share of JF-17 project will be in Pakistan's hands, we just cant develop a stealth technology, it really sophisticated.
> the best chance we have is that once we receive some J-31's we might get to know some ins and outs of Stealth technology and we somehow incorporate it in some God knows what block of JF-17.
> its just a hypothetical scenario.



A stealthy version of JF-17 is much more feasible for PAF then going for 5th gen jet now CAC have all the 5th gen tech and they can build stealthy version of JF-17. CAC will also offer its 5th gen to PAF as they will not want to lose their client to SAC.

If you remember CAC beat SAC with their J-20 project for PLAAF 5th gen plane requirements, that competition is also on when it comes to offer jets to PAF.

China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
.
China-Pak in MoU to Develop Stealth Variant of JF-17 Thunder | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Spy Master

monitor said:


> India eventually would have a fleet of 800+ aircraft compose of 4.5 and 4.5++ and fifth generation fighter to counter this future threat Pakistan should have a good number of J-31 along with other option would be available after 2020 like TFX KFX etc . if Pakistan can manage to induct 100 J-31 along with 250+ JF-17 and 100+ F-16 and other option i think enough to counter the invading Indian air force considering Pakistani pilots quality and home grounds advantage as the will be supported by the Air defense network .


800 of 4++ generation? may be in 2050...


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Yeti said:


> It’s too early to tell the true status of the Chinese AESA program,” says a Washington-based intelligence official. “We’ve seen lots of press and air show information on the program, but that doesn’t automatically translate into a robust development or give us an accurate look at where [China] is as far as fielding one anytime soon.
> “Like the [high-performance] engine, it’ll be a challenge to take the step from older radars to one designed for a fifth-generation fighter,” he says. “Again, though, the J-20 is just the first or second—depending on whom you believe—prototype in a very long development program.”
> 
> 
> China’s Stealth Aircraft Program Will Face Advanced Defenses | AWIN content from Aviation Week


 
And China doesn't need to prove anything about Chinese AESA to US, this will be consider as cheap way of spying without effort, this is like saying " your aircraf is a junk, proof me the contrary, show me what you got to prove my affirmation wrong"...LMAO

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## Max Pain

Basel said:


> A stealthy version of JF-17 is much more feasible for PAF then going for 5th gen jet now CAC have all the 5th gen tech and they can build stealthy version of JF-17. CAC will also offer its 5th gen to PAF as they will not want to lose their client to SAC.
> 
> If you remember CAC beat SAC with their J-20 project for PLAAF 5th gen plane requirements, that competition is also on when it comes to offer jets to PAF.
> 
> China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
> .
> China-Pak in MoU to Develop Stealth Variant of JF-17 Thunder | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS



id love to see it, but honestly this sounds too good to be true,
to me a dedicated 5th Gen platform would be more feasible, its a whole new jet. a whole new platform,
stealthy or not, JF-17 will complement the J-31 splendidly.having stealth features wont ever disregard the very reason this jet is build for, first we need to replace all the mirages and f-7's.stealthy features would be rather more feasible wehn atleast 3-4 block are completed.so it will take a lot of time.


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## Basel

Yeti said:


> China's is a newcomer in the AESA business and the yanks are streets ahead and I believe the Russians are also with the SU35 which the Chinese are keen to get their hands on. Again we do not know how good the J10B AESA is.



Chinese AESA will become mature soon, only reason for purchasing Su-35 will be its engines not avionics as Israel is still supporting China in its weapons program from back channels as many Chinese radar are based on Israeli tech not the Russian tech.

US will keep its dominance in making new tech jets, but China will narrow the gap in first half of this century.


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## Max Pain

Yeti said:


> It’s too early to tell the true status of the Chinese AESA program,” says a Washington-based intelligence official. “We’ve seen lots of press and air show information on the program, but that doesn’t automatically translate into a robust development or give us an accurate look at where [China] is as far as fielding one anytime soon.
> “Like the [high-performance] engine, it’ll be a challenge to take the step from older radars to one designed for a fifth-generation fighter,” he says. “Again, though, the J-20 is just the first or second—depending on whom you believe—prototype in a very long development program.”
> 
> 
> China’s Stealth Aircraft Program Will Face Advanced Defenses | AWIN content from Aviation Week



I kinda lost faith on Washington based intelligence officials when they couldnt even dig out the those hypothetical WMD's in Iraq and fought the whole damn war over it/


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## The Great One

Max Pain said:


> I kinda lost faith on Washington based intelligence officials when they couldnt even dig out the those hypothetical WMD's in Iraq and fought the whole damn war over it/


But regained it after they successfully tracked OBLD


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## Shinigami

Spy Master said:


> 800 of 4++ generation? may be in 2050...


scary isnt it? its possible way before that


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## Basel

Max Pain said:


> id lo
> ve to see it, but honestly this sounds too good to be true,
> to me a dedicated 5th Gen platform would be more feasible, its a whole new jet. a whole new platform,
> stealthy or not, JF-17 will complement the J-31 splendidly.having stealth features wont ever disregard the very reason this jet is build for, first we need to replace all the mirages and f-7's.stealthy features would be rather more feasible wehn atleast 3-4 block are completed.so it will take a lot of time.



The problem with us is that threat perception is evolving fast and out foe is rapidly fielding advance systems which need to be looked and taken care of, that is why MOU of stealthy version of JF-17 was signed and it is most economical and logical step to be taken. If you read how F-18 is evolved to Advance Super Hornet F-18 then you will understand that how much potent threat will be a stealthy JF-17 to any non 5th gen plane fielded by IAF and this is what is need of the time as IAF will not have 5th gen plane till 2025.

JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation

Although not official pic but Stealthy JF-17 may look similar to above poted pic which is circulating on net since long.


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## Max Pain

The Great One said:


> But regained it after they successfully tracked OBLD







yeah well i kinda still am finding it hard to believe,

December 2001 FOX NEWS REPORTS : Bin Laden Already Dead. | NONTELEVISED TRUTH

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## monitor

Spy Master said:


> 800 of 4++ generation? may be in 2050...



no i mean 4+4.5+4.75+5=800~


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## Cherokee

mubarak ho . I hope you get these in bulk along with joint production .


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## Max Pain

Basel said:


> View attachment 148055
> 
> 
> The problem with us is that threat perception is evolving fast and out foe is rapidly fielding advance systems which need to be looked and taken care of, that is why MOU of stealthy version of JF-17 was signed and it is most economical and logical step to be taken. If you read how F-18 is evolved to Advance Super Hornet F-18 then you will understand that how much potent threat will be a stealthy JF-17 to any non 5th gen plane fielded by IAF and this is what is need of the time as IAF will not have 5th gen plane till 2025.
> 
> JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation
> 
> Although not official pic but Stealthy JF-17 may look similar to this pic which is circulating on net since long.



the design looks quite beautiful and stealthy but it still seems too good to be true.im all up for a stealthy JF-17, i mean why not?
the news you mentioned is over 5 years old and not many info is release about it,I fear this project might be dead just like the acquisition of J-10.news like these are usually much hyped about.thats not the case here.
the speed at which j-31 is developing might indicate that we'll get the 5th gen aircraft before India.havent heard about FGFA lately.


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## Spy Master

Shinigami said:


> scary isnt it? its possible way before that


800 is too much optimistic figure...may be round about 500...!


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## ChineseTiger1986

Spy Master said:


> I had came across an article says that China is not Willing to sell J-20 to even Pakistan which is superior than J-31? Could you tell us what is the reason behind this or the article was just BS??



Sure, but J-20 is very expensive, so J-31 which costs about 80 million per unit will be more suitable economically.

The relation between J-20 and J-31 is similar to F-22 and F-35.

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## Skywalker

Cat Shannon said:


> hey man, we fly our own plnes and fly them long, unlike you who has to train them on US maintained gulf countries birds.
> 
> 500 aircrafts ? why not 500 a month ?


Go back and check your history first I don't have time for kids here....


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## Yeti

Basel said:


> Chinese AESA will become mature soon, only reason for purchasing Su-35 will be its engines not avionics as Israel is still supporting China in its weapons program from back channels as many Chinese radar are based on Israeli tech not the Russian tech.
> 
> US will keep its dominance in making new tech jets, but China will narrow the gap in first half of this century.




Not just the engine they want the AESA new radar on the SU-35 which is quite advanced.

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## SQ8

Pakistan was never looking for the J-31.


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## Yeti

Max Pain said:


> I kinda lost faith on Washington based intelligence officials when they couldnt even dig out the those hypothetical WMD's in Iraq and fought the whole damn war over it/



They knew there was no WMD's but they wanted to go to war and needed a reason but their reason was found out in the end.


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## Rajaraja Chola

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Fair enought, J31 is still a developping aircraft, it's too earlier to compare with F-35 without a proper 5th gen engine, and i dont want to bragg any further beyong this point. But on this 5th gen aircraft market, there is only few choice availalble F-35, J31, India's version of PakFA. Pakistan can only chose between F-35 and J-31, politically J-31 is not an restriction for Pakistan and will definitely much more cheaper while F-35 will be problem because India will do everything it could to block it.



No we dont and we cant. USA have sold all their top of line weapon systems to Pakistan in the past, and still now, F16 is their frontline AF. But F-35 comes with a lots of strings attached like ToT, no modifying equipments.. If Pak can go with that costlier bird they can go to it. 
J31 is also a 5th gen AF. However I am not sure if Chinese would share ToT with Pakistan for now. But it is going to be cheaper than 35 bird for sure.


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## Spy Master

Oscar said:


> Pakistan was never looking for the J-31.


what do u mean by this?


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## GR!FF!N

UKBengali said:


> Dude, I am talking at today's prices. As prices rise for arms and so a country's GDP also rises.
> 
> Consider the cost of F-15 was around 20 million each in the 1980s. They now come in at 100 million each 30 years later. Indian economy in nominal terms is nearly TEN times larger than it was 30 years ago and hence F-15 has become more affordable over time for it.
> 
> Probably Pakistan won't grow as fast as India but it will grow quickly enough that any increase in the J-31 price will be compensated by increased GDP.
> 
> J-20 is estimated to be 100 million dollars each, current prices, and J-31 will be cheaper at around 75 million dollars.
> 
> Current flyaway cost of F-35 is a little under 100 million each and so 75 million for each J-31 is reasonable.
> 
> Need any further teaching today?



Real world doesn't work what you've mentioned dude.

see the cost of Su-27 an F-15 in 1980s.and see the cost now.whatever you've mentioned is just the flyaway cost.its way way more costly whatever these aircrafts are flying.they integrate their own modifications and equipments.its called Weapons System Cost,and that increases the cost generally some 40% more...plus,it'll take more to modify for future scenario.and thats what increases more..

eg.

Lockheed stated that 5th lot of F-35s costs over *$146.3 million,and its average cost of the various variants.and these are flyaway cost.*

but in fact it is way way more..when you divide the money you payed with the numbers of aircraft you get,it costs some $223 Mil.

US Govt didn't even provide the Weapons System Cost of F-35.
plus,there is always the issue of Cost Escalation and Overruns,which are very very real for any project.

when you anticipate these informations,it'll going to provide how costly the J-31 could be.cost of a 5th Gen(don't know the Chinese one,but the other projects and their estimated costs) generally runs in hundreds of millions,not less than hundred.

time to read this news properly....

GAO Draft Slams F-35 On ‘Unaffordable’ Costs: $8.8B Over Legacy Fighters « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

now,unless they're going to provide a 5th gen aircraft on 4th gen's cost(and/or Capability),I don't see how China will make your dream possible.hell,even our latest Su-30's cost nearly 100 million a piece,forget about cost of Super MKI.and these are very 4th gen.

and one thing,the cost of F-35 is not decreasing that much...

Analyst: F-35C to Cost $337 Million Apiece in FY15 | DoD Buzz


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## Rajaraja Chola

forcetrip said:


> This is how things are done when tech or production of a component is out of reach at the moment. Granted that engines are the most important component but waiting for it to be done till you start on other things seems like a waste of time. You can believe me that they are working on those engines you speak of. They will be happy and proud of even flying a 3rd generation plane with the potential of becoming a 5th generation one rather than waiting on having everything at once. The amount of research and knowledge they have gained by jumping into and flying this project is immense. The Russians are doing the same thing. This is what should have been done with the LCA as well.



If you read my comments properly, I am not making fun of J31 or anything. They have something instead of nothing, and if we take out the equation of 5th gen engines, it might still become a decent platform. 
I am just telling those, who are talking as if J31 is now the direct competitor to F35 bird, when it is clearly not the case. The amount of research put into F35 is miind boggling. Of course you do not need me to tell you the comparison of apples and oranges. 
Let J31 take time.

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## Rajaraja Chola

pakistanipower said:


> most reasonable post by an indian, for electronic wise J-20 and J-31 is far far behind from F-22/F-35 but for the engine wait some more year i think it will be reaveld in 2016 or17 we might see LOAN type nozzle just like F-22 have,
> as for your information in the starting of a ATF program sevral design presented to pentagon just like J-20/J-31, i mean today J-20/J-31 have a frontal stealth and less on a rear



Engine wise it is going to take more time for the Chinese. The WS10 4th gen engine platform is still facing problems. And the Russians are still working on 5th gen engine.. So it is going to take after 2020 for the 5th gen engine for a realistic date. However J31 might enter service with a Russian Engine or a Chinese 4th gen Engine. 
Electronics wise, PAKFA and J20 for now are behind F22, the great. Both are in testing phase, and we cannot know how it is going to fare in the future.


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## Abingdonboy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sure, but J-20 is very expensive, so J-31 which costs about 80 million per unit will be more suitable economically.
> 
> The relation between J-20 and J-31 is similar to F-22 and F-35.


I still don't see the PAF being able to afford to operate a twin engined fighter in large numbers, it would have been a far more attractive product had the J-31 been design with one engine but obviously there is no suitable such engine out there available to China so the compromise had to be made. 

I'd say the PAF are more than likely going to order a 5th gen fighter by 2020 given the IAF is set to get theirs around that time and the nature of these two airforces has always been tit for tat, the PAF just wouldn't allow itself to be so publicly inferior.

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## Viking 63

Don't worry we don't need Al-31 engines Chinese will make sure to have these birds flying on their home made engines. I can guarantee you that PAF will fly these Birds in Big numbers.


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## Storm Force

Indian FGFA will not arriving until 2025.

5 years after the PAK FA enters Russian service.

AND I DONT TRUST IAF even getting it ion 2025

looks like the PAF will have J31 before india gets FGFA


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## Basel

Yeti said:


> Not just the engine they want the AESA new radar on the SU-35 which is quite advanced.



nope, they don't want its AESA as China is ahead in this electronics and their industry learned initial lesson from west and they have already fielded many AESA radar on different platform including fighter jet, how many AESA radar on different platform are fielded by Russians till now?

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## Basel

Oscar said:


> Pakistan was never looking for the J-31.



Yes, Pakistan was not looking for J-31 but SAC is looking for partner in J-31 and Pakistan is likely candidate for it but CAC will not like to lose its client to another company.


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## ChineseTiger1986

J-31 with the WS-13A engine in the 2012 display mockup and the WS-17 engine in the 2014 display mockup.

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## tarrar

J31 is very young & it will take time for J31 to develop completely. 

I see China really working hard on J20 more than J31. any how lets wait & see what happens, PAF is looking for a modern & advance fighters so lets hope for the best.


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## UKBengali

@GR!FF!N: I am only interested in flyaway cost as that will be the price that Pakistan will pay China for each J-31. Other costs will be budgeted separately like weapons, infrastructure and training.

The US arms manufacturers even profit from selling to the US government and make even more money per plane when it sells overseas.

Chinese will be able to build their plane cheaper and will sell at cost price to their number one ally Pakistan. 75 million dollars each, at today's prices, is a reasonable estimate of how much Pakistan will be charged by China for each J-31.

I expect Pakistan to buy between 100-150 J-31s, dependent on how their economy performs over the next 1-2 decades.


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## cranwerkhan

Cat Shannon said:


> hey man, we fly *our own plnes* and fly them long, unlike you who has to train them on US maintained gulf countries birds.
> 
> 500 aircrafts ? why not 500 a month ?


Our own planes ..lolz delusional fantasy of typical indian


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## asad71

PAF would perhaps like to induct in the J-10C immediately.


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## Max Pain

asad71 said:


> PAF would perhaps like to induct in the J-10C immediately.


no that option is long gone.


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## Storm Force




----------



## Storm Force

basel this is what you guys are will be up against

Indian version of Russian PAK FA is called FGFA

iT WILL FEATURE INTERNAL CHANGES to the Russian version

144 WILL BE ORDERED at a cost of $25 billion

they wil arrive 2025

so you better get these J31 ordered quick


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## GR!FF!N

UKBengali said:


> @GR!FF!N: I am only interested in flyaway cost as that will be the price that Pakistan will pay China for each J-31. Other costs will be budgeted separately like weapons, infrastructure and training.
> 
> The US arms manufacturers even profit from selling to the US government and make even more money per plane when it sells overseas.
> 
> Chinese will be able to build their plane cheaper and will sell at cost price to their number one ally Pakistan. 75 million dollars each, at today's prices, is a reasonable estimate of how much Pakistan will be charged by China for each J-31.
> 
> I expect Pakistan to buy between 100-150 J-31s, dependent on how their economy performs over the next 1-2 decades.



again wrong.as I quoted,even flyaway cost is nowhere near 100 mil when we're talking about F-35.and calculate,they're projecting to make nearly 2400 of these atleast.if these massive figure isn't enough to bring the cost within 100 mil for the first lots,then wonder how costly the future versions will be.and its better not to talk about J-31.let them make the aircraft first(we'll discuss the cost in post 2020).75 million is not only hypothetical,but also an imaginary figure.and I doubt PAF would be able to get 100 of these.just watch their pathetic economic condition.


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## Storm Force

Paf could not afford 36 j10 at 40 million each.

A low cost fourth gen fighter far cheaper than any new fourth gen fighter on the planet bar thunder or tejas

What chance they can buy 100 milliondollar ffifth gen j31 .


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## Icewolf

Pakistan will be the first to buy this new bird... Indians can cry all they want.


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## 帅的一匹

Yes, FC31 is the resolution to all IAF fighter


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## 帅的一匹

In the future, FC31 is way superior than any fighter in the IAF's inventory. PAF will be in dominant position after inducting FC31.


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## 帅的一匹

When India is stucking with FGFA and Rafale deal, the FC31 project seems will have a brilliant future. Now the J3001 project has been given a official name FC31, which means it will be inducted by PLAAF and pakistan in the future. I see no IAF inventory could counter it mighty until now, it's time for celebration and PAF will dominate the sky at the time of FC31 delivered. I've to say Fc31 is the most promising medium class 5gen fighter until now. Time for rockin and roll!

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## 帅的一匹

credit to @Horus

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## Shabi1

Not to mention eased maintenance. Both JF-17 and the J-31 share the same power plant. LOAN (saw tooth low IR signature) nozzels could maybe end up on Thunder Block-3s

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## Krate M

Is a FC20 deal being announced too?


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## DrSomnath999

i just cant understand one thing 
"why such kind of sensational heading in a thread with zero content with no sources /links to back anything "

rather post something which could be discussed in a serious manner in a realistic scenario

*CHEERS*

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## 帅的一匹

The link for the newest PLAAF recruitment advertisment video, i got shocked
空军宣传片—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

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## 帅的一匹

Krate M said:


> Is a FC20 deal being announced too?


PAF no need to go for FC20 when FC31 is ready in the nearfuture. China's development pace is even beyond PAF's expectation.

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## 帅的一匹

DrSomnath999 said:


> i just cant understand one thing
> "why such kind of sensational heading in a thread with zero content with no sources /links to back anything "
> 
> rather post something which could be discussed in a serious manner in a realistic scenario
> 
> *CHEERS*


Now it's time to discuss how India is gonna counter FC31 without FGFA in hand.

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## 帅的一匹

外形变化很大：中航展示最新款歼-31战机_军事图库_中华网


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## 帅的一匹

AsianUnion said:


> FC31 is such a rubbish name.


I don't mind you saying that as you might be a falseflagger.

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## Krate M

wanglaokan said:


> PAF no need to go for FC20 when FC31 is ready in the nearfuture. China's development pace is even beyond PAF's expectation.


Then what will happen to the FC20? FC31 will not be ready for some time. Also priority will be PLAAF delivery. Has China supplied to other countries any systems that were being made for it?


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## 帅的一匹

New version of WS10, we can see it's longer and the nozzle is different

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## 帅的一匹

Krate M said:


> Then what will happen to the FC20? FC31 will not be ready for some time. Also priority will be PLAAF delivery. Has China supplied to other countries any systems that were being made for it?


Too many to mention, check the export thread in CHina section.


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## GORKHALI

According to China,they export only crap . And FC 31 flying with Smoky 4th gen RD 33 engine.Only chinese know what is 5th gen Credit to @Beast 

On you shitty claim ,India struck with FGFA and rafale are done deal the former is struck with costing and sharing of tech,while rafale is struck with TOT issue.

All we need to do is come up with Smoke detector missiles

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## 帅的一匹

While all other important nations' leaders(Obama/Abe Shinzo/Putin) stick together to hold APEC meeting in Beijing, Modi is loitering in other nations. Why?

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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> According to China,they export only crap . And FC 31 flying with Smoky 4th gen RD 33 engine.Only chinese know what is 5th gen Credit to @Beast
> 
> On you shitty claim ,India struck with FGFA and rafale are done deal the former is struck with costing and sharing of tech,while rafale is struck with TOT issue.


we'll have new prototype with indigenous 9.5ton thrust medium engine by the end of next year. We know where its heading to unlike AMCA, we have a time frame, of course, a specific deadline.


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## chhota bheem

wanglaokan said:


> Too many to mention, check the export thread in CHina section.


Congrats to our Pakistani friends in advance for going to dominate the sky :rolf:


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## 帅的一匹

RD93 is a stop gap, we will throw it into russbish bin anytime after the new engine is ready. Take your time seeing the smocky performance, I promise you won't see it in the next ZHuhai show.

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## chhota bheem

wanglaokan said:


> Too many to mention, check the export thread in CHina section.


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## 帅的一匹

chhota bheem said:


> Congrats to our Pakistani friends in advance for going to dominate the sky :rolf:


Yes, they will . Time to turn over the table with China's support. You can't be always leading the competition.

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## chhota bheem

wanglaokan said:


> Yes, they will . Time to turn over the table with China's support. You can't be always leading the competition.


Ok with china's planes


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> we'll have new prototype with indigenous 9.5ton thrust medium engine by the end of next year. We know where its heading to unlike AMCA, we have a time frame, of course, a specific deadline.


AMCA was never given a timeline but a concept testing till now it not even come out from Wind tunnel testing but ADA will start working on prototype once its given a green signal from IAF. 
On topic :What makes FC 31 a 5th Gen ? Just because it "looks" stealthy and it got internal carriage doesn't mean its 5th gen yet. Just compare it with F-35 where is the sensor fusion ,engine ,where is 5th Gen weapon and where is the 5th Gen AESA radar ? 
Indo-Russian FGFA is answering all those answer that's why delay in the programe.
Engine :More powerful and highly efficient engine known as the _izdeliye_ 30 with 3D vector
Weapon : K 74MD ,K 77M,KH 38M,Kh 35UE
Radar: N036-1-01 X-bandActive Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
Avionics : Well its just too much to write.

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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> AMCA was never given a timeline but a concept testing till now it not even come out from Wind tunnel testing but ADA will start working on prototype once its given a green signal from IAF.
> On topic :What makes FC 31 a 5th Gen ? Just because it "looks" stealthy and it got internal carriage doesn't mean its 5th gen yet. Just compare it with F-35 where is the sensor fusion ,engine ,where is 5th Gen weapon and where is the 5th Gen AESA radar ?
> Indo-Russian FGFA is answering all those answer that's why delay in the programe.
> Engine :More powerful and highly efficient engine known as the _izdeliye_ 30 with 3D vector
> Weapon : K 74MD ,K 77M,KH 38M,Kh 35UE
> Radar: N036-1-01 X-bandActive Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
> Avionics : Well its just too much to write.


no deadline means vanity project for cheating taxpayer? non of those stated tech you mention above will be transfered to India, cause Russian won't let its cash cow go so easily with some 20 billions.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

How is China making so many project at once !!!!

If China takes over India , it will help with the resource planning

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## AsianLion

what is the cost of J-31 or PJ-31?

Nice aircraft for PAF to have in future but it will be beyond 2020 if ever J31 gets order, after JF-17 had been fully utilized.


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## 帅的一匹

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> How is China making so many project at once !!!!
> 
> If China takes over India , it will help with the resource planning


just image the power of 1.3 billion smart and hardwoking people with 4 trillion reserve.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Yes China is hard working which is why they make "HIGH" quality products ... used by Best airforces in world like Pakistan Airforce and Chinese Airforce


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## narcon

*it's time for celebration and PAF will dominate the sky *

Source: PAF ready to dominate the sky with FC31

Machili samundar me, mummy masala pees rahi..

Lol

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## 帅的一匹

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Yes China is hard working which is why they make "HIGH" quality products ... used by Best airforces in world like Pakistan Airforce and Chinese Airforce


Somewhere feel sacarstic, what is going on here today?


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## FNFAL




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## FNFAL




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## 帅的一匹

it only take 50 cents to bring India down.


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> *it's time for celebration and PAF will dominate the sky *
> 
> Source: PAF ready to dominate the sky with FC31
> 
> Machili samundar me, mummy masala pees rahi..
> 
> Lol


The truth is always hard to swallow.


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## SpArK

Sensational header, flame baiting dialogues with focus on Indians, zero credibility. 

Just another day in pdf.

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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> When India is stucking with FGFA and Rafale deal, the FC31 project seems will have a brilliant future. Now the J3001 project has been given a official name FC31, which means it will be inducted by PLAAF and pakistan in the future. I see no IAF inventory could counter it mighty until now, it's time for celebration and PAF will dominate the sky at the time of FC31 delivered. I've to say Fc31 is the most promising medium class 5gen fighter until now. Time for rockin and roll!
> View attachment 149272


I have heard that besides J-31 and J-20 China is also working on few more Stealth Fighter Jets is it true ?


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> no deadline means vanity project for cheating taxpayer? non of those stated tech you mention above will be transfered to India, cause Russian won't let its cash cow go so easily with some 20 billions.


Haha I knew you 50 cent army will never reply this kind questions but digress to another. Tell me where is Chinese technology or they are waiting for Russia to get it develop so china can rip off the design and finally come up with indigenous tech.


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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> Sensational header, flame baiting dialogues with focus on Indians, zero credibility.
> 
> Just another day in pdf.


The problem is Chinese and their clowns. They think china will help them in case of any war with India.

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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> Haha I knew you 50 cent army will never reply this kind questions but digress to another. Tell me where is Chinese technology or they are waiting for Russia to get it develop so china can rip off the design and finally come up with indigenous tech.


yeh, india is supa powa that China is never gonna catch up with your superior Russian technology, ok?

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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> The problem is Chinese and their clowns. They think china will help them in case of any war with India.


the best support to PAF is something like FC31, which you can't easily get in the market. That's called brotherhood, seems very difficult for you to understand? sooner or later, you will be outnumbered and inferior in quality. get some rafale to save your a$$ against FC31, or you r baby airforce will be slaughtered.

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> I have heard that besides J-31 and J-20 China is also working on few more Stealth Fighter Jets is it true ?


 
@Beast @cirr @Chinese-Dragon dragon @rcjm


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## fatman17

too early to comment but i admire your enthusiasm.....

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Sensational header, flame baiting dialogues with focus on Indians, zero credibility.
> 
> Just another day in pdf.


why the hell we are here if we don't point to India in this forum?

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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> the best support to PAF is something like FC31, which you can't easily get in the market. That's called brotherhood, seems very difficult for you to understand? sooner or later, you will be outnumbered and inferior in quality. get some rafale to save your a$$ against FC31, or you r baby airforce will be slaughtered.


Pakistan suffered alot because of this wet dream of brotherhood and ummah. 
Baby airforce is a 4th largest airforce  with Combat experience and trained with the best of the world.While China is like frog in a well,recently their pilots just learned to do barrel roll. @gambit

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## 帅的一匹

fatman17 said:


> too early to comment but i admire your enthusiasm.....


Time for rising up, it's PAF's turn.

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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> why the hell we are here if we don't point to India in this forum?



You are nothing but a flame baiter. 
You lack skills for a constructive dialogue, finds happiness in irritating people.
You will get a few to engage here with ur fantasy stories. Best of luck.

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## fatman17

*




*
*China Plans To Export J-31 Stealth Fighter*
* 
Nov. 10, 2014 - 06:45PM | By WENDELL MINNICK *






*A model of the J-31 fighter is shown at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow. China announced at the current show that it would export the stealthy aircraft. (Wendell Minnick/Staff)*

Fighter Surprises Unveiled at Zhuhai Preshow
*ZHUHAI, CHINA* — China plans to export its stealthy twin-engine J-31 fighter, which would become the first aircraft of its kind available to global customers who cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35. The fighter is similar in configuration to the single-engine F-35 stealth fighter.
The J-31 export revelation occurred in the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft Nov. 10 during a preshow tour of this week’s Airshow China in Zhuhai. The placard for the model states: “FC-31 4th Generation Multi-Purpose Medium Fighter.”
Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export,” and this is the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.
Though overcast, a J-31 performed a demonstration flight during the preshow tour, as did the Russian Su-35 multirole fighter. China and Russia are expected to sign a deal for export of the Su-35 sometime later this month.
The 10th biennial China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition (Airshow China) has been an outlet for defense companies to market new products for export and for China’s military to show off sophisticated weapon systems. The Nov. 11-16 airshow has become the biggest commercial and defense airshow in Asia with over 700 companies exhibiting. ■
*Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.*

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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> Pakistan suffered alot because of this wet dream of brotherhood and ummah.
> Baby airforce is a 4th largest airforce  with Combat experience and trained with the best of the world.While China is like frog in a well,recently their pilots just learned to do barrel roll. @gambit


Oh come on, don't drag your father Gambit here to save your a$$. You will get used to it slowly when PAF lead the run

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> You are nothing but a flame baiter.
> You lack skills for a constructive dialogue, finds happiness in irritating people.
> You will get a few to engage here with ur fantasy stories. Best of luck.


India is nothing but a super hyper
India lack skills for constuctive develoment, find happiness in lying to its people
India get a few to engage here with ur fantasy delusion. Get out of my thread now.

one more for free: India is not qualified to compete with China.

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## chhota bheem

wanglaokan said:


> why the hell we are here if we don't point to India in this forum?


Wont you think instead of FC 31 why dont you call it PC 31 it sounds more scary and meaningful and you gve P for pakistan and C for china that make sence,others can make their own words but still they mean the same,what do you say.

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## 帅的一匹

fatman17 said:


> *
> View attachment 149311
> *
> *China Plans To Export J-31 Stealth Fighter*
> *
> Nov. 10, 2014 - 06:45PM | By WENDELL MINNICK *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A model of the J-31 fighter is shown at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow. China announced at the current show that it would export the stealthy aircraft. (Wendell Minnick/Staff)*
> 
> Fighter Surprises Unveiled at Zhuhai Preshow
> *ZHUHAI, CHINA* — China plans to export its stealthy twin-engine J-31 fighter, which would become the first aircraft of its kind available to global customers who cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35. The fighter is similar in configuration to the single-engine F-35 stealth fighter.
> The J-31 export revelation occurred in the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft Nov. 10 during a preshow tour of this week’s Airshow China in Zhuhai. The placard for the model states: “FC-31 4th Generation Multi-Purpose Medium Fighter.”
> Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export,” and this is the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.
> Though overcast, a J-31 performed a demonstration flight during the preshow tour, as did the Russian Su-35 multirole fighter. China and Russia are expected to sign a deal for export of the Su-35 sometime later this month.
> The 10th biennial China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition (Airshow China) has been an outlet for defense companies to market new products for export and for China’s military to show off sophisticated weapon systems. The Nov. 11-16 airshow has become the biggest commercial and defense airshow in Asia with over 700 companies exhibiting. ■
> *Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.*


PAF shall join this project ASAP.

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## 帅的一匹

chhota bheem said:


> Wont you think instead of FC 31 why dont you call it PC 31 it sounds more scary and meaningful and you gve P for pakistan and C for china that make sence,others can make their own words but still they mean the same,what do you say.


Yes, tejas has a better name.

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## narcon

wanglaokan said:


> The truth is always hard to swallow.



Come back when the truth is turned into a fact!

Above photos have no value from China, as even Chinese Government doctors them (photos)


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> Come back when the truth is turned into a fact!
> 
> Above photos have no value from China, as even Chinese Government doctors then (photos)


keep delusion, i woudn't even bother to tell you the truth.


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## AUSTERLITZ

The j-31 engine is not a 5th gen plane engine...to even think that a rd-93/ws-10 can compete with 2 supercruising new gen pak fa engines is just chinese physics.First fix engine-then talk of dominating skies.


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## chhota bheem

wanglaokan said:


> Yes, tejas has a better name.


See,you are so sweet,thanks for that.can we name your a/c pc 31.


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## krishnathealien

wanglaokan said:


> it only take* 50 cents* to bring India down.



From IMF or US aid ?


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## 帅的一匹

krishnathealien said:


> From IMF or US aid ?


ICBC

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## 帅的一匹

AUSTERLITZ said:


> The j-31 engine is not a 5th gen plane engine...to even think that a rd-93/ws-10 can compete with 2 supercruising new gen pak fa engines is just chinese physics.First fix engine-then talk of dominating skies.


coming soon....take your time


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## narcon

wanglaokan said:


> keep delusion, i woudn't even bother to tell you the truth.









China mocked over massive Photoshop failure of officials visiting elderly residents

If China can do above, what it can not do is anybody's guess!

And the Chinese Gov admitted that.
Lol


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## 帅的一匹

AUSTERLITZ said:


> The j-31 engine is not a 5th gen plane engine...to even think that a rd-93/ws-10 can compete with 2 supercruising new gen pak fa engines is just chinese physics.First fix engine-then talk of dominating skies.


i underdtand you logic. the fast MKI cruises, the fast it could run away from FC31. F31 will dominate the sub-continent sky while J20 could be deployed at east coast. Engine is no more the problem, we'd invested billions in it.

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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> View attachment 149321
> 
> 
> China mocked over massive Photoshop failure of officials visiting elderly residents
> 
> If China can do above, what it can not do is anybody's guess!
> 
> And the Chinese Gov admitted that.
> Lol


Unless Chinese fighter kick your but, or you never gonna realize you are done.


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## 帅的一匹

The newly developed WS13A will adopt 'leaky' design as F414. Credit to gambit


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## Roybot

I wonder how safe China's cutting edge stealth fighters will be in PAF's hand given how close the Pakistani establishment is with the US Military and given the CIA's reach in Pakistan . All the weakness and strengths of next generation Chinese fighter jets will be exposed.

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## OrionHunter

wanglaokan said:


> When India is stucking with FGFA and Rafale deal, the FC31 project seems will have a brilliant future. Now the J3001 project has been given a official name FC31, which means it will be inducted by PLAAF and pakistan in the future. I see no IAF inventory could counter it mighty until now, it's time for celebration and PAF will dominate the sky at the time of FC31 delivered. I've to say Fc31 is the most promising medium class 5gen fighter until now. Time for rockin and roll!




Good joke! By the time the PAF starts thinking of induction, it would be well past 2022-23! By which time India would have already had half its air force flying the bird of prey! 

The FC-31 hasn't even completed its flight tests so far. Meaning it would take another 3-4 years before induction into the PLAF. And another 4-5 years to have enough of them for export. 

So there's nothing to rock and roll now.


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## narcon

wanglaokan said:


> Unless Chinese fighter kick your but, or you never gonna realize you are done.




China can not stretch itself thin with many borders and as many enemies.
Right now, you are investing money in India:
Indo-China cooperation: Gurgaon to get $ 5 billion expo centre : Business, News - India Today 

War is beyond you.
But if you are itching for it, go and wrestle away Taiwan first, which you can not do.


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## narcon

Roybot said:


> I wonder how safe China's cutting edge stealth fighters will be in PAF's hand given how close the Pakistani establishment is with the US Military and given the CIA's reach in Pakistan . All the weakness and strengths of next generation Chinese fighter jets will be exposed.



Chinese are smart, they know Pakistan's psych.
They will never hand over latest technology to Pakistan.


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## Roybot

narcon said:


> Chinese are smart, they know Pakistan's psych.
> They will never hand over latest technology to Pakistan.



Yup, same reason why they never sold J-10 to Bangladesh, cause that would mean India getting a close, real close look at it


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## narcon

Roybot said:


> Yup, same reason why they never sold J-10 to Bangladesh, cause that would mean India getting a close, real close look at it



With money/pressure everything is for sale.
And Chinese know this very well/


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> With money/pressure everything is for sale.
> And Chinese know this very well/


I don't think BAF will let you close to the jet if we sign a security treaty with them.


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> Chinese are smart, they know Pakistan's psych.
> They will never hand over latest technology to Pakistan.


I don't think Pakistanis are psyche, they are forced upon on by supa power India.


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## 帅的一匹

Roybot said:


> I wonder how safe China's cutting edge stealth fighters will be in PAF's hand given how close the Pakistani establishment is with the US Military and given the CIA's reach in Pakistan . All the weakness and strengths of next generation Chinese fighter jets will be exposed.


if you don't trust your closest ally, who you will trust?


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> China can not stretch itself thin with many borders and as many enemies.
> Right now, you are investing money in India:
> Indo-China cooperation: Gurgaon to get $ 5 billion expo centre : Business, News - India Today
> 
> War is beyond you.
> But if you are itching for it, go and wrestle away Taiwan first, which you can not do.


Taiwan is our internal problem, you can spare your concern.


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## 帅的一匹

Roybot said:


> Yup, same reason why they never sold J-10 to Bangladesh, cause that would mean India getting a close, real close look at it


Hasina is not that dumb as you describe. gotten to the point you take a close look at J10A, F31 will fly all over the sky.


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## Roybot

wanglaokan said:


> Hasina is not that dumb as you describe. gotten to the point you take a close look at J10A, *F31 will fly all over the sky*.



Yeah since its a plane, thats the least one would expect from it

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## Roybot

wanglaokan said:


> if you don't trust your closest ally, who you will trust?



There is no closest ally, did US sell F-22 to Israel or Japan or South Korea?


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## 帅的一匹

Roybot said:


> There is no closest ally, did US sell F-22 to Israel or Japan or South Korea?


f35 is good enough, USA won't sell F35 to IAF cause you might be a potential trouble maker.


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## narcon

Five posts within few minutes!
Someone needs a itch guard!


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## narcon

wanglaokan said:


> Taiwan is our internal problem, you can spare your concern.



How is it your internal problem?
Taiwan is officially a independent sovereign country with their own Capital and currency, which does not say we belong to China.
You might wanna say whatever deems fit to your pony brain.
But the reality bites. right?


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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> How is it your internal problem?
> Taiwan is officially a independent sovereign country with their own Capital and currency, which does not say we belong to China.
> You might wanna say whatever deems fit to your pony brain.
> But the reality bites. right?
> 
> View attachment 149343


Taiwan is a part of PRC, your government agree with it.


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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> Taiwan is a part of PRC, your government agree with it.


Let the modi lovers rolling in thier million dollors slumbs, can you post pics of that flying dragon?


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## 帅的一匹

batmannow said:


> Let the modi lovers rolling in thier million dollors slumbs, can you post pics of that flying dragon?


@Beast your turn

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## 帅的一匹

batmannow said:


> Let the modi lovers rolling in thier million dollors slumbs, can you post pics of that flying dragon?


Anyone knows why Modi is absent in APEC? to snub China or something else?

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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> @Beast your turn


Excuse me, friend what are you up to?

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## ashwamedh

wanglaokan said:


> Now it's time to discuss how India is gonna counter FC31 without FGFA in hand.


With the one and only LCA Tejas...............


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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> Anyone knows why Modi is absent in APEC? to snub China or something else?


Snub china!
friend , just wana know that machine as you were telling that its the ultimate what PAF can get, wana know more about it!

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## 帅的一匹

batmannow said:


> Excuse me, friend what are you up to?


you asked for more picture, Beast would love to post.

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## 帅的一匹

batmannow said:


> Snub china!
> friend , just wana know that machine as you were telling that its the ultimate what PAF can get, wana know more about it!


check the zhuhai airshow thread in a China section, you will have all you want.

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## 帅的一匹

ashwamedh said:


> With the one and only LCA Tejas...............


maybe MK1000?

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## narcon

wanglaokan said:


> Taiwan is a part of PRC, your government agree with it.



Indian government also says Tibet is Chinese part - But on the other hand it shows middle finger to China by giving asylum to Dalai Lama. What has China done with this regard to India?
More trade with India!


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## Sasquatch

Meh dumb thread, wait for the 2015 the second prototype will come out like the model at zhuhai. WS-17 engines is what you need be looking out for. 

@Horus I suggest you close this thread and clean it up from the usual trolls.

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## 帅的一匹

narcon said:


> Indian government also says Tibet is Chinese part - But on the other hand it shows middle finger to China by giving asylum to Dalai Lama. What has China done with this regard to India?
> More trade with India!


that is how you backstab China in 1962? and you got your middle fingers cut in the end.

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## 帅的一匹

Hu Songshan said:


> Meh dumb thread, wait for the 2015 the second prototype will come out like the model at zhuhai. WS-17 engines is what you need be looking out for.
> 
> @Horus I suggest you close this thread and clean it up from the usual trolls.


how am I dumb?在其他人面前抽自己老乡耳刮子很帅是吧。

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## 帅的一匹

which part of my thread looks dumb? or you just don't have enough confidence on your own.

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## ashwamedh

wanglaokan said:


> maybe MK1000?


No MK2 itself !..........We have integrated Super Stealth technology........Which makes the plane completely invisible..........
Jokes apart.......Good progress by China.......Only if we could emulate your speed of progress and development.....
But then again......Different country.....Different goals.......Different path to progress........


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## Sasquatch

wanglaokan said:


> which part of my thread looks dumb? or you just don't have enough confidence on your own.





wanglaokan said:


> how am I dumb?在其他人面前抽自己老乡耳刮子很帅是吧。



Never said you were dumb, just the thread. FC-31 is a still a prototype, before we go chest thumping lets wait until the next prototype comes out in 2015. Then maybe we can have something to boast about. It's the WS-13 upgraded engines that will be ready next year that we should be watching out for.

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## 帅的一匹

I fully support PAF against potential threat cross the border, maybe next time I should shut it down. I m happy our ally could take the lead, FC 31 will render the ability very soon. you don't see Modi is busy with messing with China while Xo is extending the Oliver branch to him. India is our enemy, Pakistan is our true friend.

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## 帅的一匹

Hu Songshan said:


> Never said you were dumb, just the thread. FC-31 is a still a prototype, before we go chest thumping lets wait until the next prototype comes out in 2015. Then maybe we can have something to boast about. It's the WS-13 upgraded engines that will be ready next year that we should be watching out for.


some times i just can't control, my 2 cents. please don't delete it cause it matter to me. those troll said PAF won't get FC 31 until 2022? what you say?

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## pursuit of happiness

wanglaokan said:


> Now it's time to discuss how India is gonna counter FC31 without FGFA in hand.


--
FC 31 .. 
when PLAF inducting it? or only for PAF? 
how many flight test ... ? 
--


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## 帅的一匹

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> FC 31 ..
> when PLAF inducting it? or only for PAF?
> how many flight test ... ?
> --


PAF will be the first customer, I don't think China will sell it immediately to other counties other than PAkistan cause the security or classified issue. regarding the induction time I think no later than year 2020. I don't know the actual numbers it depends on your economy and long term planning.

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## EL LOBO

chhota bheem said:


> Wont you think instead of FC 31 why dont you call it PC 31 it sounds more scary and meaningful and you gve P for pakistan and C for china that make sence,others can make their own words but still they mean the same,what do you say.



man you are talking like children and amatuer teens.....

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## Donatello

It is natural that PAF be the first customer of J-31. and it will get it at the same time, or before India gets FGFA

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## Donatello

Roybot said:


> I wonder how safe China's cutting edge stealth fighters will be in PAF's hand given how close the Pakistani establishment is with the US Military and given the CIA's reach in Pakistan . All the weakness and strengths of next generation Chinese fighter jets will be exposed.



Thank you for your concern. Americans won't be given access to these planes, just like Chinese are not given access to F16s, they won't allow American personal near those base. You know, it is pretty easy to pick up a 'white' or 'black' guy in Pakistan.

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## 帅的一匹

I am not posting this thread in India section, I shall not be blamed for inviting trolls. I can't set the entry password for a thread?

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## EL LOBO

wanglaokan said:


> I fully support PAF against potential threat cross the border, maybe next time I should shut it down. I m happy our ally could take the lead, FC 31 will render the ability very soon. you don't see Modi is busy with messing with China while Xo is extending the Oliver branch to him. India is our enemy, Pakistan is our true friend.



man you are the best...

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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> Dont dig out the mud... you will be ashmed if i started posting same for your country..



Go ahead, except that this thread doesn't concern you. But you get the gastroenteritis automatically.

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## 帅的一匹

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> thanks
> can you tell me on what parameters FC is beter than PA K FA ?
> we going for 144 units minimum ...


EoTS, better stealthy feature in F22 level, WS17 engine to sponsor Supercruise, Chinese “pave pillar" avionics structure ，PL21 ramjet BVRAAM, saw teeth nozzle for infrared suppression ,New AESA radar, Hotas ,better EW and so on. or any other features you wanna add?

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## 帅的一匹

those specification are highly classified, I think only PAF can get access to.

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## pursuit of happiness

wanglaokan said:


> EoTS, better stealthy feature in F22 level, WS17 engine to sponsor Supercruise, Chinese “pave pillar" avionics structure ，PL21 ramjet BVRAAM, saw teeth nozzle for infrared suppression ,New AESA radar, Hotas ,better EW and so on. or any other features you wanna add?


---
WS engine done ?if yes details ?
Pave pillar .. detial ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
PL21 .. detials ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
AESA ready .. detials ? better than Russian tech ?
EW.. which one ? detial ? better athn islera l and french EW?


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## Donatello

With a Stealth Fighter, China Tries to Gain Attention
BEIJING — Amid the whine of high-performance jet engines at the start of an air show in Zhuhai, the Chinese government is hoping to generate a different sort of buzz: admiration, and perhaps purchases, of its shadowy J-31 stealth fighter, which is expected to make its first public appearance.

For almost 20 years, the event, Airshow China, has been a showcase for the country’s homegrown hardware, and a marketplace for those interested in selling to the world’s most populous country. As the country tries to climb into the high-end arms market, it has been eager to display fighters, missiles and drones that it hopes will demonstrate how China can compete on the global stage.

By exhibiting a stealth aircraft at the show, China wants to show just how far its arms industry has come, experts say. The United States is the only country with operational stealth planes, and Lockheed Martin the only company to have successfully exported one, the F-35.

The air show, which starts Tuesday, is widely expected to be “a coming-out party for the J-31,” said John Stillion, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, an independent research institute in Washington.

“The more ambitious the display, probably the closer it is to being ready for prime time. If they fly it, that’s a big deal,” he said. “One of the ways countries try to increase demand for their combat aircraft is displaying them, doing cool stuff at air shows; it’s an opportunity to show off.”

After scrutinizing online videos and squinting at oblique references in Chinese state news media, foreign experts say there are many open questions regarding the J-31’s development: how soon the plane will be in service, whether it will use engines that are domestically made or imported from Russia, whether its capabilities will be a match for Lockheed Martin’s jets, and whether it will be substantially cheaper than the competition.

It is also unclear whether the introduction of the J-31 at the show will significantly bolster China’s clout in the global arms trade. It is not even certain that the jet, developed by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, is meant for export. Another stealth fighter, the J-20, is being developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.

“People think the J-20 won the contest,” said Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow and coordinator of the Military Transformations Program at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore.

Some shortcomings may be evident in the plane’s appearance, he said. Unlike the F-35, the J-31 has two engines.

“Traditionally the Chinese have to stick in extra engines because their engines aren’t powerful enough — that’s a warning signal right there,” he said. Lockheed Martin’s F-22, the world’s only operational stealth fighter, also has two engines, but they are powerful enough to propel the plane faster than the speed of sound without using the fuel-intensive afterburner.

Robert M. Farley, an assistant professor at the University of Kentucky’s Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce, said engine designs had hindered Chinese aerospace ambitions. The Xian Aircraft Industry Y-20, a domestically produced military transport that will also be shown at Zhuhai, has been developed with engines made by the Russian company Aviadvigatel that are far less efficient than their Western counterparts, typically made by General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce.

“The problem with Chinese engines is that they’ve been remarkably unreliable,” Mr. Farley said. “Engines require extremely tight tolerances in construction; even small errors can lead to the engine burning out.”

Quality control, in general, could undermine the J-31’s biggest apparent selling point: its ability to evade radar.

“The potential problem with Chinese- and Russian-construction stealth fighters is that if there’s a bolt out of place, it shows up on a radar signature,” Mr. Farley said. “Russian and Chinese construction is typically much looser.”

“Will Chinese fighters be as ‘stealthy’ as Western fighters? We won’t know that for another five or 10 years,” he said.

If China’s fighters perform as advertised, Mr. Farley said, the J-31 will attract buyers — but only if it is marketed well below the F-35’s price tag, which ranges from about $150 million to more than $300 million depending on the model. Development costs for the J-31 are completely hidden from public view, but the journal Science noted that about 45 percent of the Chinese government’s research and development spending is “not accounted for” and probably allocated to defense.

“My guess is that somewhere around $75 million, or at least less than $100 million, is the ballpark cost to make it attractive,” Mr. Farley said. *“Pakistan, of course, would be a huge buyer.* Several Latin American countries are recapitalizing their air forces. In the Middle East, there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with the U.S. and U.S. equipment. A cheaper Chinese stealth fighter could do well.”

Political pressures and incentives could also affect who buys from China, said Robert C. Michelson, principal research engineer emeritus at the Georgia Tech Research Institute.

“Countries with poor Western relations, such as Iran, might be forced to consider the J-31 in the absence of other competing options,” he said. “Of course the Chinese jets will be in competition with the Russian jets, and will have to prove more cost-effective.”

Russia is the world’s second-largest exporter of arms, controlling 27 percent of the global market; its Sukhoi aeronautics company is also developing a so-called fifth-generation jet, the T-50, jointly with India. The United States controls 29 percent of the market, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, or Sipri.

By last year, China had overtaken France as the world’s fourth-largest exporter of arms, according to Sipri data; Germany is No. 3. Although China has long sold small arms and ammunition, increasing manufacturing sophistication means that it is now also trying to export air-defense missile systems, antitank weaponry, helicopters and warships.

In just five years, the percentage of the global arms trade sourced from China has jumped to 6 percent from 2 percent, even as total international arms sales have risen 14 percent. From 2009 to 2013, China’s top arms customers were Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. Meanwhile, China’s arms imports have shrunk as domestic factories fill more orders, according to Sipri.

The country’s aviation industry is also trying to break into commercial manufacturing; China’s first domestically produced jet airliner, the C919, is in the final stages of development, as is the ARJ21, a regional jet.

The C919 is “meant to compete with Airbus and Boeing,” said Ray Jaworowski, senior aerospace analyst at Forecast International.

“In both instances, the planes will be powered by Western engines — they will be incorporating Western systems, and this will help them compete in Western markets,” Mr. Jaworowski said, adding that finding buyers outside China would be difficult no matter what.

One advantage for China as it tries to become a bigger manufacturer of aviation hardware is a large internal market.

“A lot of these companies in China have been doing pretty well because the Chinese defense budget has gone up so significantly,” said Mr. Bitzinger of the S. Rajaratnam School. In 1997, China’s total defense budget was about $7 billion; by 2014, it was officially $150 billion, and perhaps much higher, he said.

Although the public is expected to get its first official glimpse of the J-31 at Zhuhai — the plane, called the Falcon Hawk in the show’s program, is scheduled to fly on Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday — there will almost certainly not be a peek under the hood.

“I suspect that this is intended to be the public debut of the J-31 so that the world will be impressed that it is real,” said Mr. Michelson of Georgia Tech. “Rightfully, China is proud of this development and wants to show it off.”

“Performance claims will no doubt be made for the J-31 at Zhuhai, but until those are vetted, they will just be claims,” he added.

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/b...ghter-china-tries-to-gain-attention.html?_r=1



So, yes, Pakistan is definitely going to be a buyer.

Keep the JF-17 program rolling, wait for J-31 to mature in the next 2-3 years, and place orders 5 years from now, with PAC building in partnership.

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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> you are TT .. so please respect the position.
> why this thread dont concenr me .. are you MOD
> you going off topic .. *dont ejjoy misery of those who alredy suffred.. if pak is btter handling death of children due to diesase please give use sugestion to improve .. if not try to concentrate either on topic or the people who are dying for reason you mention in your own country*

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## 帅的一匹

trolls swarm in to call FC31 crap,my god!

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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> trolls swarm in to call FC31 crap,my god!


Is China working on other Stealth Planes too other than J-31 and J-20 ?

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> Is China working on other Stealth Planes too other than J-31 and J-20 ?


I high Suspicious that CAC is working on a medium class stealthy fighter? I'm not sure until yet. I mean the workload of CAC is very heavy, I don't know they have extra resource and time for another stealthy fighters? the possibility is very low.

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## The Headache

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Yes China is hard working which is why they make *"HIGH" quality products* ... used by* Best airforces in world like Pakistan Airforce* and Chinese Airforce


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## Hyperion

Imagine the Chinese coming up with a supercruise engine in the near future -- don't you think they are capable of doing it? If it were to happen, then many here would get a heart-attack! 

China is on the right path...... they haven't waited for all the technologies to mature and are testing various powerplants and technologies...... things will mature and in the mean time they will accumulate data that you, I and others could only wish for.

Now look at it from a neutral PoV........ in their J31 and J20 projects, they have almost EVERYTHING sorted out, other than the engines......... how long before they have that sorted out too? I feel it won't be that long!



AUSTERLITZ said:


> The j-31 engine is not a 5th gen plane engine...to even think that a rd-93/ws-10 can compete with 2 supercruising new gen pak fa engines is just chinese physics.First fix engine-then talk of dominating skies.

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## Ultima Thule

AsianUnion said:


> what is the cost of J-31 or PJ-31?
> 
> Nice aircraft for PAF to have in future but it will be beyond 2020 if ever J31 gets order, after JF-17 had been fully utilized.


it is on the prototype stage, its price may be 80 to 90 million $

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## Rain

W


Donatello said:


> With a Stealth Fighter, China Tries to Gain Attention
> BEIJING — Amid the whine of high-performance jet engines at the start of an air show in Zhuhai, the Chinese government is hoping to generate a different sort of buzz: admiration, and perhaps purchases, of its shadowy J-31 stealth fighter, which is expected to make its first public appearance.
> 
> For almost 20 years, the event, Airshow China, has been a showcase for the country’s homegrown hardware, and a marketplace for those interested in selling to the world’s most populous country. As the country tries to climb into the high-end arms market, it has been eager to display fighters, missiles and drones that it hopes will demonstrate how China can compete on the global stage.
> 
> By exhibiting a stealth aircraft at the show, China wants to show just how far its arms industry has come, experts say. The United States is the only country with operational stealth planes, and Lockheed Martin the only company to have successfully exported one, the F-35.
> 
> The air show, which starts Tuesday, is widely expected to be “a coming-out party for the J-31,” said John Stillion, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, an independent research institute in Washington.
> 
> “The more ambitious the display, probably the closer it is to being ready for prime time. If they fly it, that’s a big deal,” he said. “One of the ways countries try to increase demand for their combat aircraft is displaying them, doing cool stuff at air shows; it’s an opportunity to show off.”
> 
> After scrutinizing online videos and squinting at oblique references in Chinese state news media, foreign experts say there are many open questions regarding the J-31’s development: how soon the plane will be in service, whether it will use engines that are domestically made or imported from Russia, whether its capabilities will be a match for Lockheed Martin’s jets, and whether it will be substantially cheaper than the competition.
> 
> It is also unclear whether the introduction of the J-31 at the show will significantly bolster China’s clout in the global arms trade. It is not even certain that the jet, developed by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, is meant for export. Another stealth fighter, the J-20, is being developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.
> 
> “People think the J-20 won the contest,” said Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow and coordinator of the Military Transformations Program at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore.
> 
> Some shortcomings may be evident in the plane’s appearance, he said. Unlike the F-35, the J-31 has two engines.
> 
> “Traditionally the Chinese have to stick in extra engines because their engines aren’t powerful enough — that’s a warning signal right there,” he said. Lockheed Martin’s F-22, the world’s only operational stealth fighter, also has two engines, but they are powerful enough to propel the plane faster than the speed of sound without using the fuel-intensive afterburner.
> 
> Robert M. Farley, an assistant professor at the University of Kentucky’s Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce, said engine designs had hindered Chinese aerospace ambitions. The Xian Aircraft Industry Y-20, a domestically produced military transport that will also be shown at Zhuhai, has been developed with engines made by the Russian company Aviadvigatel that are far less efficient than their Western counterparts, typically made by General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce.
> 
> “The problem with Chinese engines is that they’ve been remarkably unreliable,” Mr. Farley said. “Engines require extremely tight tolerances in construction; even small errors can lead to the engine burning out.”
> 
> Quality control, in general, could undermine the J-31’s biggest apparent selling point: its ability to evade radar.
> 
> “The potential problem with Chinese- and Russian-construction stealth fighters is that if there’s a bolt out of place, it shows up on a radar signature,” Mr. Farley said. “Russian and Chinese construction is typically much looser.”
> 
> “Will Chinese fighters be as ‘stealthy’ as Western fighters? We won’t know that for another five or 10 years,” he said.
> 
> If China’s fighters perform as advertised, Mr. Farley said, the J-31 will attract buyers — but only if it is marketed well below the F-35’s price tag, which ranges from about $150 million to more than $300 million depending on the model. Development costs for the J-31 are completely hidden from public view, but the journal Science noted that about 45 percent of the Chinese government’s research and development spending is “not accounted for” and probably allocated to defense.
> 
> “My guess is that somewhere around $75 million, or at least less than $100 million, is the ballpark cost to make it attractive,” Mr. Farley said. *“Pakistan, of course, would be a huge buyer.* Several Latin American countries are recapitalizing their air forces. In the Middle East, there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with the U.S. and U.S. equipment. A cheaper Chinese stealth fighter could do well.”
> 
> Political pressures and incentives could also affect who buys from China, said Robert C. Michelson, principal research engineer emeritus at the Georgia Tech Research Institute.
> 
> “Countries with poor Western relations, such as Iran, might be forced to consider the J-31 in the absence of other competing options,” he said. “Of course the Chinese jets will be in competition with the Russian jets, and will have to prove more cost-effective.”
> 
> Russia is the world’s second-largest exporter of arms, controlling 27 percent of the global market; its Sukhoi aeronautics company is also developing a so-called fifth-generation jet, the T-50, jointly with India. The United States controls 29 percent of the market, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, or Sipri.
> 
> By last year, China had overtaken France as the world’s fourth-largest exporter of arms, according to Sipri data; Germany is No. 3. Although China has long sold small arms and ammunition, increasing manufacturing sophistication means that it is now also trying to export air-defense missile systems, antitank weaponry, helicopters and warships.
> 
> In just five years, the percentage of the global arms trade sourced from China has jumped to 6 percent from 2 percent, even as total international arms sales have risen 14 percent. From 2009 to 2013, China’s top arms customers were Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. Meanwhile, China’s arms imports have shrunk as domestic factories fill more orders, according to Sipri.
> 
> The country’s aviation industry is also trying to break into commercial manufacturing; China’s first domestically produced jet airliner, the C919, is in the final stages of development, as is the ARJ21, a regional jet.
> 
> The C919 is “meant to compete with Airbus and Boeing,” said Ray Jaworowski, senior aerospace analyst at Forecast International.
> 
> “In both instances, the planes will be powered by Western engines — they will be incorporating Western systems, and this will help them compete in Western markets,” Mr. Jaworowski said, adding that finding buyers outside China would be difficult no matter what.
> 
> One advantage for China as it tries to become a bigger manufacturer of aviation hardware is a large internal market.
> 
> “A lot of these companies in China have been doing pretty well because the Chinese defense budget has gone up so significantly,” said Mr. Bitzinger of the S. Rajaratnam School. In 1997, China’s total defense budget was about $7 billion; by 2014, it was officially $150 billion, and perhaps much higher, he said.
> 
> Although the public is expected to get its first official glimpse of the J-31 at Zhuhai — the plane, called the Falcon Hawk in the show’s program, is scheduled to fly on Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday — there will almost certainly not be a peek under the hood.
> 
> “I suspect that this is intended to be the public debut of the J-31 so that the world will be impressed that it is real,” said Mr. Michelson of Georgia Tech. “Rightfully, China is proud of this development and wants to show it off.”
> 
> “Performance claims will no doubt be made for the J-31 at Zhuhai, but until those are vetted, they will just be claims,” he added.
> 
> Source:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/b...ghter-china-tries-to-gain-attention.html?_r=1
> 
> 
> 
> So, yes, Pakistan is definitely going to be a buyer.
> 
> Keep the JF-17 program rolling, wait for J-31 to mature in the next 2-3 years, and place orders 5 years from now, with PAC building in partnership.


Writer is shamefully unrealistic, so are his most of experts...

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## Hyperion

@Horus @Oscar @Fulcrum15 @Jungibaaz: This is a decent thread, specially with V2.0 of J31 AKA J21..... please clean irritant Indian trolls and their posts for a decent discussion on the latest development of the aircraft and it's probable utility for PAF.

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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> it is on the prototype stage, its price may be 80 to 90 million $


ballpark price from 70 million to 100 million, I think PAF will procure at the lowest price.

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## 帅的一匹

if PLAAF navy induct it, the price will be lower.

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## Stealth

Oscar said:


> Pakistan was never looking for the J-31.



Since how many years J-31 "WAS" launched ?? lol Pakistan was and remain looking for something which will serve as in long run... now J-31 is offically on aiiiiiiiiiiirrrr

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## syedali73

pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. *detial* ? better than *isreal* and *frech* avionic ?
> PL21 .. *detials* ?better than r77 , Mica , *meter* .. ?
> AESA ready .. *detials* ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? *detial *? better *athn* *islera* l and french EW?


Paan ka khokha chalatey ho?

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## Hyperion

How do you know that J31 will cost @ USD100 million? Stop posting nonsense. You are not in charge for procurement @ PAF.



Storm Force said:


> Paf could not afford 36 j10 at 40 million each.
> 
> A low cost fourth gen fighter far cheaper than any new fourth gen fighter on the planet bar thunder or tejas
> 
> What chance they can buy 100 milliondollar ffifth gen j31 .


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## Kompromat

This is an exciting opportunity. I am sure the blue shirts already stationed in China are keeping up with the developments. We need no other jet. We ought to save up for it for another decade and build up thunders in the meanwhile. If PAF buys FC-31, we ought to buy them in strong numbers.

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## SQ8

Stealth said:


> Since how many years J-31 "WAS" launched ?? lol Pakistan was and remain looking for something which will serve as in long run... now J-31 is offically on aiiiiiiiiiiirrrr



Yup.. the J-31 platform isn not what the PAF was aiming for. But it can always be a competitor if the *developed* version offers more than the other offering.

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## fatman17

*




*
*China’s 5G fighter to fly Russian jet engines*
Published time: November 10, 2014 14:00

Computer-generated imagery (CGI) of the J-31/ F-60 fifth generation fighter jet in action with beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles and fifth generation short range infrared homing air-to-air missiles. (Image from Chinese Military Review)

An exportable Chinese fifth-generation fighter jet will be equipped with gas-turbine jet engines developed and assembled by Russian companies, confirmed the head of Russian delegation at the Airshow China exhibition.
The mid-sized advanced J-31 fighter jet developed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation got off the ground for the first time on October 31, 2012, and has been in the process of modification ever since.

_“The J-31 with the Russian RD-93 engine is considered to be an export program, capable of rivaling the American F-35 fifth-generation aircraft on the regional markets,”_ Rosoboronexport’s Air Force Equipment Export Department Head Sergey Kornev said in an interview to RIA Novosti.

The Russian RD-93 turbofan jet engine is a modification of the RD-33 engines, developed in 1968-1985 by the Klimov Design Bureau specifically for MiG-29 fighter jet family.

Initially, the RD-93 was developed by Klimov specifically for the FC-1 Xiaolong (also known as JF-17 Thunder), a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China to become the Pakistan Air Force’s primary fighter jet.

Kornev said that the J-31 competing with the F-35 _“is an ambitious program, yet very real, particularly taking into consideration the high cost of F-35 and certain problems with its development,”_ in comments to RIA Novosti at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai.

China’s science and aviation industries demonstrate high potential, since the country has two fifth-generation fighter jets, the J-31 and J-20, in development, Kornev said.

The Chengdu J-20 is stealth, twin-engine fifth-generation fighter aircraft prototype being developed by Chengdu Aerospace Corp. for the Chinese Air Force. It performed its maiden flight in 2011 and could be introduced into service starting from 2017, if it gets the quality of engine a true fifth-generation fighter jet deserves.

In March 2012, RT reported that J-20 was performing test flights with two Russian AL-31F jet engines it borrowed from the Russian Su-27 fighter jet that entered Chinese service in the mid-1980s.

The J-20 needs an engine with characteristics similar to AL-41F1C engines Russian newest Su-35 multifunctional fighter jets are equipped with. This engine enables a fighter to achieve supersonic speed without an afterburner, a feature attributed to 5G jets. The AL-41F1C is actually a de-rated version of the AL-41F1 (117C) engine used on the T-50 PAK-FA, Russian 5G fighter jet currently undergoing tests.

The Su-35 fighter has arrived at Airshow China and will perform demonstration stunts in an attempt to impress the Chinese Air Force top brass, as Beijing has been considering buying the Su-35 fighters for several years now.

Chinese engineers are busy developing jet engines of home design, such as WS-10, WS-13 and WS-15, but so far have not succeeded to reach reliability and durability similar to Russian engines.

_“The aircraft engines design and construction technology is very complex, lengthy and costly process,”_ Kornev told RIA Novosti, noting that two years ago Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) reported it had made real progress in creating new heat-resistant alloys, the key technology in developing afterburning turbofan jet engines.

For the moment there are five 5G fighter jets put on a wing worldwide, namely American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, Russian T-50 (PAK FA) and Chinese J-20 and J-31, with only the US F-22 being deployed for active service.

China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition to be conducted in China’s Zhuhai on November 11-16.


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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> This thread resembles the j10 vanguard thread from 2005 ... In this very forum.
> 
> As soon as the plaaf started to induct these we had multiple threads
> 
> Paf to buy j10
> Pakistan to license build j10
> Paf to buy 159 j10.
> 
> Then it turned to
> 
> Paf will wait for j10b or j10c
> 
> Nine years laters paf is no longer looking to buy j10 . plaaf have over 250 in service now and growing.
> 
> This is why we some of us treat your j31,claims with a pinch of salt and a great deal of skeptism
> 
> We can't see the pak finance ministry matching the pak military desires.or the desires of Pakistan defense forum posters in here forum
> 
> The timelines we will have in 2020 are outrageous.
> 
> I'm not even sure if the plaaf Wil have this by then



@Jungibaaz 

Your daily troll kill.

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## HRK

Oscar said:


> Yup.. the J-31 platform isn not what the PAF was aiming for. But it can always be a competitor if the *developed* version offers more than the other offering.



Don't you think you are hinting too much about too little available options in just two lines, I mean what other option do we have other then 'FC-31' ....


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## Donatello

wanglaokan said:


> if PLAAF navy induct it, the price will be lower.


 That's very much true.


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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> check the zhuhai airshow thread in a China section, you will have all you want.


How about its weapons integration?


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## trident2010

It is a good option for PAF if it develops into mature platform.


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## My-Analogous

Russian stated that engine they offer is RD93*s*. Any body have any info about that?


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## pursuit of happiness

wanglaokan said:


> those specification are highly classified, I think only PAF can get access to.


---
@wanglaokan 
WS engine done ?if yes details ?
Pave pillar .. detial ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
PL21 .. detials ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
AESA ready .. detials ? better than Russian tech ?
EW.. which one ? detial ? better athn islera l and french EW?

--


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> @wanglaokan
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. detial ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
> PL21 .. detials ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
> AESA ready .. detials ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? detial ? better athn islera l and french EW?
> 
> --


中国的ws13发动机，根据我们国内的最新报道看，进度完全可以跟的上j31的研发速度，因为报道称ws13发动机很快就能投入使用，新的aesa雷达中国的肯定非常不错，世界都知道俄罗斯的雷达水平不高，但是比法国的如何我们还不清楚，导弹更没问题了，中国有全套的导弹，从近距离格斗弹到中距离主动弹都有，而且性能很不错，机动G数比r77强多了，难道你们不记得在西亚某国，他们的苏27曾经发射过大量导弹却无一命中的故事吗？


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## zhang5521

ghazaliy2k said:


> Russian stated that engine they offer is RD93*s*. Any body have any info about that?


现在试飞中的j31采用了两台rd33或93发动机，但是中航工业公司表示，中国已经新投入了几百亿资金在发动机上，ws13很快就能投入使用，而ws15在2012年就研发完成了核心机，目前已经进入高台实验阶段，ws15推力预计有15到17吨，是中国歼20使用的发动机，而j10b和j11b已经开始大量使用ws10a发动机，前几个月中国j11b在南海上空拦截美国p8的时候，那架j11b就是用的两台ws10a发动机，ws10a发动机已经成熟并且装备部队，推力有13.2吨，总体看，ws13的研发进度完全跟的上j31的研发进度


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## Donatello

RD-93 and it's further development confirmed for J-31. Russia is keen on collaborating with China. Good prospects for Pakistan as Jf-17 fleet will have engine commonality.


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> @wanglaokan
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. detial ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
> PL21 .. detials ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
> AESA ready .. detials ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? detial ? better athn islera l and french EW?
> 
> --


　　中评社北京8月17日电／中国枭龙战机、利剑无人机和歼31战机目前使用的都是俄罗斯RD-93中等推力发动机。由于受技术和专利限制购买外国发动机成本很高。近期通过中航相关部门对外公开的股份资料显示，如今中国类似RD-93的第三代中等推力发动机（应为之前已经开始研制的涡扇13发动机）已经完成研发，开始打造生产线准备大批量生产。一旦该发动机实现量产，中国枭龙战机、利剑无人战机和歼31战机都将换装国产涡扇13中推发动机，一方面减少了外国制约，一方面使用国产发动机可以大幅降低生产成本，利于大批量生产装备和增强外销竞争力。
China completed WS13 engine research and development work, began to enter the preparatory stage of production line


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## zhang5521

Donatello said:


> RD-93 and it's further development confirmed for J-31. Russia is keen on collaborating with China. Good prospects for Pakistan as Jf-17 fleet will have engine commonality.


中国已经完成了ws13的研发，已经进入了生产线准备阶段，很快，jf17和j31都将使用ws13发动机


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## zhang5521

narcon said:


> How is it your internal problem?
> Taiwan is officially a independent sovereign country with their own Capital and currency, which does not say we belong to China.
> You might wanna say whatever deems fit to your pony brain.
> But the reality bites. right?
> 
> View attachment 149343


台湾的国民党政府是二战结束后被pla打到台湾的，台湾是原来的国民政府最后一块地盘，现在全世界都承认中华人民共和国的合法性，中国还是联合国常任理事国，五大国之一，也就是说，台湾属于中国的一部分，是中国的一个省，台湾省的政府是原来的中国国民党政府，但是这属于内战问题，不是国与国之间的问题，懂了吗？


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## 帅的一匹

涡扇13的单台推力是多少？


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## 帅的一匹

搜了搜百度说开加力以后只有86.37KN，推重比只有7.8。要是这样的话，就太差劲了。


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## Hyperion

A short summary (few words) in English will be appreciated!



zhang5521 said:


> 中国已经完成了ws13的研发，已经进入了生产线准备阶段，很快，jf17和j31都将使用ws13发动机





zhang5521 said:


> 台湾的国民党政府是二战结束后被pla打到台湾的，台湾是原来的国民政府最后一块地盘，现在全世界都承认中华人民共和国的合法性，中国还是联合国常任理事国，五大国之一，也就是说，台湾属于中国的一部分，是中国的一个省，台湾省的政府是原来的中国国民党政府，但是这属于内战问题，不是国与国之间的问题，懂了吗？





wanglaokan said:


> 涡扇13的单台推力是多少？





wanglaokan said:


> 搜了搜百度说开加力以后只有86.37KN，推重比只有7.8。要是这样的话，就太差劲了。

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## zhang5521

narcon said:


> How is it your internal problem?
> Taiwan is officially a independent sovereign country with their own Capital and currency, which does not say we belong to China.
> You might wanna say whatever deems fit to your pony brain.
> But the reality bites. right?
> 
> View attachment 149343





wanglaokan said:


> 搜了搜百度说开加力以后只有86.37KN，推重比只有7.8。要是这样的话，就太差劲了。


怕啥？那不两台呢吗？ws13是中推，要那么大推力干啥


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## zhang5521

wanglaokan said:


> 搜了搜百度说开加力以后只有86.37KN，推重比只有7.8。要是这样的话，就太差劲了。


现在大推有ws10a，ws15两个型号了，ws13目标就是中推，用于jf17j31和无人机，我们如果同时搞三个大推，枭龙j31用啥？中国现在也急需一款中推啊，ws13的定位就是中推，老ws9太大了，j31装两台就太大了，所以要ws13


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## zhang5521

Hyperion said:


> A short summary (few words) in English will be appreciated!


Sorry, my English is not good, this paragraph of word is more complicated, I can only express in Chinese，You can try to use translation software to translate

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## 我是恐怖分子

zhang5521 said:


> 现在大推有ws10a，ws15两个型号了，ws13目标就是中推，用于jf17j31和无人机，我们如果同时搞三个大推，枭龙j31用啥？中国现在也急需一款中推啊，ws13的定位就是中推，老ws9太大了，j31装两台就太大了，所以要ws13


ws10，ws10a，ws15，ws13是不是都是太行系列的？还是太行和WS是完全不同的两种发动机？ 求解。。


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## zhang5521

我是恐怖分子 said:


> ws10，ws10a，ws15，ws13是不是都是太行系列的？还是太行和WS是完全不同的两种发动机？ 求解。。


ws10和10a是太行，ws13和ws15不是，是完全不同的发动机，ws10和ws10a虽然都是太行，但是其实也不同


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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> how am I dumb?在其他人面前抽自己老乡耳刮子很帅是吧。


By talking non sense out of subject ?


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## 帅的一匹

zhang5521 said:


> 怕啥？那不两台呢吗？ws13是中推，要那么大推力干啥


这样的推力能实现超巡么？


----------



## zhang5521

wanglaokan said:


> 这样的推力能实现超巡么？


两台总推力比f135还大，飞机重量又轻，采用三d打印技术，即便不能超巡，超机动也能做到了，话说，超巡是远程奔袭用的，j31和jf17都是中型机，用不着远程奔袭，类似f35，他们做好自己中型机的中近程任务就可以了

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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> 中评社北京8月17日电／中国枭龙战机、利剑无人机和歼31战机目前使用的都是俄罗斯RD-93中等推力发动机。由于受技术和专利限制购买外国发动机成本很高。近期通过中航相关部门对外公开的股份资料显示，如今中国类似RD-93的第三代中等推力发动机（应为之前已经开始研制的涡扇13发动机）已经完成研发，开始打造生产线准备大批量生产。一旦该发动机实现量产，中国枭龙战机、利剑无人战机和歼31战机都将换装国产涡扇13中推发动机，一方面减少了外国制约，一方面使用国产发动机可以大幅降低生产成本，利于大批量生产装备和增强外销竞争力。
> China completed WS13 engine research and development work, began to enter the preparatory stage of production line



Could you please try to keep your posts in English. Thank you.

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## SQ8

wanglaokan said:


> 这样的推力能实现超巡么？


Please keep posts in English as much as possible.

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## 帅的一匹

Oscar said:


> Please keep posts in English as much as possible.


I'm asking my fellow whether FC31 could super cruise with WS13, he said yes. he said he is not good at English, do I have to talk with him in Chinese.

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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> Please keep posts in English as much as possible.


yes i know. but my english is realy bad ，please forgive me ，and i think ，Chinese is also the United Nations official language, I would like to use it is nothing serious......Because some of these languages, I use English cannot express clearly


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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> yes i know. but my english is realy bad ，please forgive me ，and i think ，Chinese is also the United Nations official language, I would like to use it is nothing serious......Because some of these languages, I use English cannot express clearly



No forgiveness needed. It helps us understand if you are saying something interesting. You may use google translate for difficult words if needed. A good idea would be to coordinate with other Chinese members if you have something interesting that you are not able to post. 

Chinese is not understood well by a lot of users on this forum from other countries which is why we chose english as the official language to allow for common communication.


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## SQ8

wanglaokan said:


> I'm asking my fellow whether FC31 could super cruise with WS13, he said yes. he said he is not good at English, do I have to talk with him in Chinese.



You can help him translate his replies and assist in English.

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## Last Samuri

Very interesting plane the j31=

Description as the low end of China's stealth programme ie smaller more economical fighters than the j20 which is China answer to raptor and not for export.

I understand the j10.cost 40 million each and thunders. Only 20 million.

We under stand that the pak fa will be 100 million range and f35 more than this. Amount.

My guess j31, export version Wil be some where between 50/70 million each.

Would you guys agree. 

I understand there is only one prototype flying suggesting a decade of testing yet


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> No forgiveness needed. It helps us understand if you are saying something interesting. You may use google translate for difficult words if needed. A good idea would be to coordinate with other Chinese members if you have something interesting that you are not able to post.
> 
> Chinese is not understood well by a lot of users on this forum from other countries which is why we chose english as the official language to allow for common communication.


 thank you for reminding me,
Before I published a news from China, the news that a WS13 engine developed, has begun to enter the preparation of the production stage, and the WS13 engine thrust is medium thrust engine, because China already have WS10 and WS10A and WS15 three kinds of high thrust engines, while WS13 is used for equipment JF17 and J31 such a medium fighter, so do not need a lot of thrust, but must take the size is reduced, and because J31 is equipped with two WS13 engine, so the total thrust is bigger than F35, but like JF17, J31 is also a medium fighter, so they like F35 don't need to have supersonic cruise capability, they do not need long range combat, so do not need to have the ability to supercruise, only large range fighter just need that kind of ability, while the J31 only need to complete a good distance and near distance operational tasks can be, there is a J31 using two WS13 engine, can realize the super maneuver capability.
do you understand me?i'msorry ,my english is so bad.hehehe

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## SQ8

Last Samuri said:


> Very interesting plane the j31=
> 
> Description as the low end of China's stealth programme ie smaller more economical fighters than the j20 which is China answer to raptor and not for export.
> 
> I understand the j10.cost 40 million each and thunders. Only 20 million.
> 
> We under stand that the pak fa will be 100 million range and f35 more than this. Amount.
> 
> My guess j31, export version Wil be some where between 50/70 million each.
> 
> Would you guys agree.
> 
> I understand there is only one prototype flying suggesting a decade of testing yet




The F-35 is the supposed low end of the Stealth range as well for the US.. even though that is a rather relative and ironic term. In addition, the costs take into account labour costs as well. the quiet and ignored revolution in the Chinese manufacturing industry is quality control whilst still maintaining its relatively cheaper labour costs. That revolution owes its existence to the surge in multi-national firms producing their products in China. 

So the cost in man hours for say a single rivet on the J-20 is easily less than half that of the same on the F-22. A simple widespread example is that the same labour that makes the audio chips for Apple or Samsung also ends up taking that know how and making those chips for Chinese consumer electronic brands. So cost is a very sketchy term to try and judge a products quality these days from China. 

The J-31 may be for export but that is not happening anytime soon. The aircraft has a LONG developmental process to go ahead with and I doubt that the Pakistan Air Force is looking at it for the time being. CATIC has its own product on the line for later and that may suit the PAF's budget and timeline requirements.

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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> thank you for reminding me,
> Before I published a news from China, the news that a WS13 engine developed, has begun to enter the preparation of the production stage, and the WS13 engine thrust is medium thrust engine, because China already have WS10 and WS10A and WS15 three kinds of high thrust engines, while WS13 is used for equipment JF17 and J31 such a medium fighter, so do not need a lot of thrust, but must take the size is reduced, and because J31 is equipped with two WS13 engine, so the total thrust is bigger than F35, but like JF17, J31 is also a medium fighter, so they like F35 don't need to have supersonic cruise capability, they do not need long range combat, so do not need to have the ability to supercruise, only large range fighter just need that kind of ability, while the J31 only need to complete a good distance and near distance operational tasks can be, there is a J31 using two WS13 engine, can realize the super maneuver capability.
> do you understand me?i'msorry ,my english is so bad.hehehe



No problem. While the usage of the RD-93 is a good option and the presence of the RD-93MA development by Klimov will ensure that a powerful engine remains for the J-31 to use.. I believe for now the aircraft may be slightly underpowered for its potential and specifically for Pakistan.. I dont think the J-31 is what they are looking at. While Shenyang institute has been useful in supplying Pakistan in the past (J-6 and Q-5 fighter) there has been a good relationship that has developed between CATIC and Pakistan Air Force through the F-7MP, F-7PG and JF-17 program.. and is likely to continue to dominate future PAF purchases.

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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> You can help him translate his replies and assist in English.





Oscar said:


> The F-35 is the supposed low end of the Stealth range as well for the US.. even though that is a rather relative and ironic term. In addition, the costs take into account labour costs as well. the quiet and ignored revolution in the Chinese manufacturing industry is quality control whilst still maintaining its relatively cheaper labour costs. That revolution owes its existence to the surge in multi-national firms producing their products in China.
> 
> So the cost in man hours for say a single rivet on the J-20 is easily less than half that of the same on the F-22. A simple widespread example is that the same labour that makes the audio chips for Apple or Samsung also ends up taking that know how and making those chips for Chinese consumer electronic brands. So cost is a very sketchy term to try and judge a products quality these days from China.
> 
> The J-31 may be for export but that is not happening anytime soon. The aircraft has a LONG developmental process to go ahead with and I doubt that the Pakistan Air Force is looking at it for the time being. CATIC has its own product on the line for later and that may suit the PAF's budget and timeline requirements.


 and then ,i say that...
WS10 engine and WS10A engine belongs to China's Taihang series engine, but they are completely different engine, the core of the WS10 machine learning technology is AL31F, but the WS10A core engine technology learning is a F110 engine. But they thrust is 12.5 tons to 13.2 tons
...e........
I don't know my grammar right.


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> No problem. While the usage of the RD-93 is a good option and the presence of the RD-93MA development by Klimov will ensure that a powerful engine remains for the J-31 to use.. I believe for now the aircraft may be slightly underpowered for its potential and specifically for Pakistan.. I dont think the J-31 is what they are looking at. While Shenyang institute has been useful in supplying Pakistan in the past (J-6 and Q-5 fighter) there has been a good relationship that has developed between CATIC and Pakistan Air Force through the F-7MP, F-7PG and JF-17 program.. and is likely to continue to dominate future PAF purchases.


 oh...no..no.no.no..my friend ,
Although Chinese and Russia are good friends, but our country is hoping to become a superpower, so we will not allow our plane is always filled with other countries of the engine, we must develop their own engine, so we can be at ease, because in this way we can 100% domestic J31 fighter, so that once a war the outbreak, we don't need to rely on anyone will be able to produce their own fighter, this is we have been pursuing, and also we have part of the realization of the goal, in addition, China treat Pakistan as is the best of friends, so Chinese also hope that Pakistan can not be Russia pinned down, because the relationship between Russia and India is also good, so Chinese also hope Pakistan can choose the WS13 engine, so once the Pakistan war needs, so Chinese can fully meet the demand of Pakistan aircraft, and do not need to look at the Russian idea.

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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> oh...no..no.no.no..my friend ,
> Although Chinese and Russia are good friends, but our country is hoping to become a superpower, so we will not allow our plane is always filled with other countries of the engine, we must develop their own engine, so we can be at ease, because in this way we can 100% domestic J31 fighter, so that once a war the outbreak, we don't need to rely on anyone will be able to produce their own fighter, this is we have been pursuing, and also we have part of the realization of the goal, in addition, China treat Pakistan as is the best of friends, so Chinese also hope that Pakistan can not be Russia pinned down, because the relationship between Russia and India is also good, so Chinese also hope Pakistan can choose the WS13 engine, so once the Pakistan war needs, so Chinese can fully meet the demand of Pakistan aircraft, and do not need to look at the Russian idea.



I understand, but think of it as a safety. In case there is not enough time to produce WS-13, the RD-93 can still work to keep the program going. China's slow progress in engines in not related to the design of the engine and China can if it wishes design an engine that can compete with Russian engines easily. China's problem has been with metal alloy manufacturing for engines which has slowed its local engine programs down.


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## truthseeker2010

wont it be better for PAF to develop a stealth variant of jf-17, rather than acquiring j-31, due to financial implications, because 5th gen is hell expensive.


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> No problem. While the usage of the RD-93 is a good option and the presence of the RD-93MA development by Klimov will ensure that a powerful engine remains for the J-31 to use.. I believe for now the aircraft may be slightly underpowered for its potential and specifically for Pakistan.. I dont think the J-31 is what they are looking at. While Shenyang institute has been useful in supplying Pakistan in the past (J-6 and Q-5 fighter) there has been a good relationship that has developed between CATIC and Pakistan Air Force through the F-7MP, F-7PG and JF-17 program.. and is likely to continue to dominate future PAF purchases.


 
I think J31 stealth ability should be more powerful than the J20 fighter, because J20 fighter jets that are larger in size and has a duck wing. (we Chinese told the little front wings called duck wing). These are not conducive to stealth, and J31 smaller size, appearance is more concise, using conventional layout mode, stealth capability may be better than J20, but the J20 stealth ability is also very good, some time ago, J20 fighters mounted angle reflector photo exposure, this means that in the case of using the corner reflector, J20 can realize the radar cannot detect the target, but I still believe J31 stealth ability is more powerful, the Chinese like J20 is out of his fly farther, and bomb more, because of China's land area is very big,

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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> I think J31 stealth ability should be more powerful than the J20 fighter, because J20 fighter jets that are larger in size and has a duck wing. (we Chinese told the little front wings called duck wing). These are not conducive to stealth, and J31 smaller size, appearance is more concise, using conventional layout mode, stealth capability may be better than J20, but the J20 stealth ability is also very good, some time ago, J20 fighters mounted angle reflector photo exposure, this means that in the case of using the corner reflector, J20 can realize the radar cannot detect the target, but I still believe J31 stealth ability is more powerful, the Chinese like J20 is out of his fly farther, and bomb more, because of China's land area is very big,



The J-20 design may have good stealth from the front.. so if it approaches a target it may have a small radar size. Which is why I have said again and again that the J-20 is more of an interceptor like the Russian Mig-31 rather than like the F-22. This does not mean that it is not stealthy, but that the J-20 is designed for a different type of combat. It is going to be a very effective strike aircraft along with an excellent interceptor. 

The J-31 may have better stealth but not much can be said unless these aircraft go onto a Radar testing area where the values can be checked.


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> I understand, but think of it as a safety. In case there is not enough time to produce WS-13, the RD-93 can still work to keep the program going. China's slow progress in engines in not related to the design of the engine and China can if it wishes design an engine that can compete with Russian engines easily. China's problem has been with metal alloy manufacturing for engines which has slowed its local engine programs down.


 
China aviation industry group, said a news conference: WS13 has completed the research and development work, ready to open the production line has entered the stage, while the J31 fighter at least until 2018 or so can be delivered for use, in 2018, the WS13 engine is very safe and reliable, stable and mature.
don't worry


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> The J-20 design may have good stealth from the front.. so if it approaches a target it may have a small radar size. Which is why I have said again and again that the J-20 is more of an interceptor like the Russian Mig-31 rather than like the F-22. This does not mean that it is not stealthy, but that the J-20 is designed for a different type of combat. It is going to be a very effective strike aircraft along with an excellent interceptor.
> 
> The J-31 may have better stealth but not much can be said unless these aircraft go onto a Radar testing area where the values can be checked.


 
China has been on these data is very secure, radar size J31 how we also can make nothing of it, but an Australian research institutions have done a calculation, stealth performance obtained J20 and J31 radar data of specific size, I forgot, but stealthy performance is good, after all, the use of corner reflector to enlarge his radar size needed in the test phase, or flight staff also not detect the aircraft.


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## SQ8

zhang5521 said:


> China has been on these data is very secure, radar size J31 how we also can make nothing of it, but an *Australian research institutions *have done a calculation, stealth performance obtained J20 and J31 radar data of specific size, I forgot, but stealthy performance is good, after all, the use of corner reflector to enlarge his radar size needed in the test phase, or flight staff also not detect the aircraft.



I would not rely too much on the reports of Carlo Kopp. He is very biased and unreliable.


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> I would not rely too much on the reports of Carlo Kopp. He is very biased and unreliable.


i'm so sorry. my english is bad. so i cannot experse my iad


Oscar said:


> I would not rely too much on the reports of Carlo Kopp. He is very biased and unreliable.


 
So, many languages I can not express ah, sorry,


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## zhang5521

Oscar said:


> I would not rely too much on the reports of Carlo Kopp. He is very biased and unreliable.


 so........that is ..what .i mean......so .....thankyou to talk whith me .....with my so bad english....e ...thank you .and.good .night.byebye


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## ChineseTiger1986

China and Pakistan are starting to negotiate about the 5th gen aircraft (J-31).

Here China is demonstrating the HMD of J-31 to the military representatives from Pakistan in the Zhuhai airshow.

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## ChineseTiger1986

zhang5521 said:


> I think J31 stealth ability should be more powerful than the J20 fighter, because J20 fighter jets that are larger in size and has a duck wing. (we Chinese told the little front wings called duck wing). These are not conducive to stealth, and J31 smaller size, appearance is more concise, using conventional layout mode, stealth capability may be better than J20, but the J20 stealth ability is also very good, some time ago, J20 fighters mounted angle reflector photo exposure, this means that in the case of using the corner reflector, J20 can realize the radar cannot detect the target, but I still believe J31 stealth ability is more powerful, the Chinese like J20 is out of his fly farther, and bomb more, because of China's land area is very big,



J-20 does have the flexible canard. Unlike the fixed canard of Mig 1.44, so it doesn't really affect its stealth.

Please, the SAC fans should stop dissing the CAC products, and the PLAAF will clearly choose J-20 over J-31, and SAC should now focus on the 5th gen naval based aircraft instead of insisting for a losing battle.


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## zhang5521

Shinigami said:


> why admire the duplicate when the original looks so much better?


We discuss the stealth fighter, the Indians still play no one cares LCA

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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> J20 is more indigenous than j31.
> Those J 31 seems to be a direct copy of F 35.
> Anyway J 31 is a good evolving fighter.But comparing it with F 35 or F22 is a joke. Americans have top notch futuristic technologies.Russians only issue is their lack of money or they are the only one that can compete American Aero industry .Chinese are not developed that much .Perhaps in future.
> Pakistan will induct these fighters and probably J 20 also.But they will get a decent squadron only after 2025.Prime reason is it is still developing and till now Chinese fighters didnt face a real war scenario.Then more tests is needed.
> And at last maintaining afifth generation fighter need deep pockets.Pakistan can do it only if they speed up their economy as soon as possible.
> Lets see.


j31 is better than lca ，that is enough


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## ChineseTiger1986

zhang5521 said:


> and then ,i say that...
> WS10 engine and WS10A engine belongs to China's Taihang series engine, but they are completely different engine, the core of the WS10 machine learning technology is AL31F, but the WS10A core engine technology learning is a F110 engine. But they thrust is 12.5 tons to 13.2 tons
> ...e........
> I don't know my grammar right.



The WS-10A engine and the AF-31F engine have completely different design layout, hence they are not related.

You talk about WS-10 is a copy of AL-31F, whereas WS-10A is a copy F110, that's not true, it has already been debunked.

I know explaining with you in Chinese is better for understanding, but it is against the forum rules.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The WS-10A engine and the AF-31F engine have completely different design layout, hence they are not related.
> 
> You talk about WS-10 is a copy of AL-31F, whereas WS-10A is a copy F110, that's not true, it has already been debunked.
> 
> I know explaining with you in Chinese is better for understanding, but it is against the forum rules.



Problem is no one knows whats the truth.


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## he-man

Oscar said:


> I would not rely too much on the reports of Carlo Kopp. He is very biased and unreliable.



His analysis is shitty but facts are 100% verifiable


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Problem is no one knows whats the truth.



The WS-10 core design has been inspired by the gas turbine version of the F100 engine.

But he mentioned about AL-31F and F110, which are not really involved on this issue.

It is not a secret, China's early engine has been greatly inspired by the superior foreign engine, but still he has pointed out the wrong sources, so i was merely correcting his mistakes.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The WS-10 core design has been inspired by the gas turbine version of the F100 engine.
> 
> But he mentioned about AL-31F and F110, which are not related.
> 
> It is not a secret, China's early engine has been greatly inspired by the superior foreign engine, but still he has pointed out the wrong sources, so i was merely correcting his mistakes.



Let me point here that western engine design is not superior and certainly not the f-100 which is old just like al-31f and both having similar low t:w ratios.

The difference is between the materials used in newer western engines prolonging the life cycle.
Russia has reached 4000 hours with 117s ,,,,can u tell about chinese engine??


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Let me point here that western engine design is not superior and certainly not the f-100 which is old just like al-31f and both having similar low t:w ratios.
> 
> The difference is between the materials used in newer western engines prolonging the life cycle.
> Russia has reached 4000 hours with 117s ,,,,can u tell about chinese engine??



Still, we have studied the F100 engine's core design since the 1980s, so our fundamental knowledge for the modern turbofan engine basically came from this.

However, it doesn't mean that we will stick at that level of knowledge forever.

Our 155kN WS-10G derived from this fundamental knowledge, and our coming 180kN WS-15 was also derived from this fundamental knowledge.


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Russia has reached 4000 hours with 117s ,,,,can u tell about chinese engine??



Again, 4000 hours is the overall lifespan, not the overhaul lifespan.

Our WS-10 engine is 1000 hours overhaul, which means the overall lifespan will be close to 3000 hours. So the late WS-10 variants will be even longer for sure.

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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Again, 4000 hours is the overall lifespan, not the overhaul lifespan.
> 
> Our WS-10 engine is 1000 hours overhaul, which means the overall lifespan will be close to 3000 hours. So the late WS-10 variants will be even longer for sure.



Thats debatable.
Till figures are out ,,we cannot be sure but yeah 3000 hours is good.

But new 117 engine of pakfa should approach 6000 hours i think.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Still, we have studied the F100 engine's core design since the 1980s, so our fundamental knowledge for the modern turbofan engine basically came from this.
> 
> However, it doesn't mean that we will stick at that level of knowledge forever.
> 
> Our 155kN WS-10G derived from this fundamental knowledge, and our coming 180kN WS-15 was also derived from this fundamental knowledge.



I still don't believe u can make a 180 kn engine with meaningful t/w
Russians made al-41 20 years back but had lot of weight.

p and w f-135 has 190-200 kn and it was made only few years back so china cannot take such a leap so fast.
It will take 10 years imho.

140 KN is possible as u had al-31 and f-100 as template while 155-180 kn would be new designs and hence require extensive testing


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Thats debatable.
> Till figures are out ,,we cannot be sure but yeah 3000 hours is good.
> 
> But new 117 engine of pakfa should approach 6000 hours i think.



The WS-10 engine has reached 1000 hours overhaul since 2005.

Over 40 days of non-stop ground testing, so 40*24=960 hours, so it is about 1000 hours.

In a total lifespan of a engine, you need to overhaul it twice (3 x 1000 = 3000) before it is completely scrapped.

Here is the Chinese document about the WS-10 engine.


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> I still don't believe u can make a 180 kn engine with meaningful t/w
> Russians made al-41 20 years back but had lot of weight.
> 
> p and w f-135 has 190-200 kn and it was made only few years back so china cannot take such a leap so fast.
> It will take 10 years imho.
> 
> 140 KN is possible as u had al-31 and f-100 as template while 155-180 kn would be new designs and hence require extensive testing



Right now the basic model of WS-10 is 135kN, so 155kN is just an improvement.

While the 180kN WS-15 will be completely new successor generation of the WS-10 engine.

The AL-31F is 125kN, so 117 has 145kN. And don't get me wrong, 117 is not completely a new generation, but a AL-31F on steroid.

Right now, the only rival of the F119 will be the S-15, not anything else.

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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The WS-10 engine has reached 1000 hours overhaul since 2005.
> 
> Over 40 days of non-stop ground testing, so 40*24=960 hours, so it is about 1000 hours.
> 
> In a total lifespan of a engine, you need to overhaul it twice (3 x 1000 = 3000) before it is completely scrapped.
> 
> Here is the Chinese document about the WS-10 engine.



Its all good and dandy.
Even kaveri is not a failure per se as it produces 50/80 kn in dry/wet mode.

But till engine characteristics are known,,we just cannot comment.
But i agree its a matter of 10-15 years for china to overtake russia in this.................india is further 10 years away at least


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Right now the basic model of WS-10 is 135kN, so 155kN is just an improvement.
> 
> While the 180kN WS-15 will be completely new successor generation of the WS-10 engine.
> 
> The AL-31F is 125kN, so 117 has 145kN. And don't get me wrong, 117 is not completely a new generation, but a AL-31F on steroid.
> 
> Right now, the only rival of the F119 will be the S-15, not anything else.



Wrong

al-31f has many derivatives

Basic one is 123 kn(has no fadec)
117s is 142 kn(fadec+)
117 is >142 kn but unspecified.(further modification,flying in pakfa)

idz 30 or type 30----------180 kn vce for pakfa intended.(completely new,maybe inspired from al-41)

So the rival to f-119 is 117s in su-35.


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Its all good and dandy.
> Even kaveri is not a failure per se as it produces 50/80 kn in dry/wet mode.
> 
> But till engine characteristics are known,,we just cannot comment.
> But i agree its a matter of 10-15 years for china to overtake russia in this.................india is further 10 years away at least



We will completely overtake Russia in the aircraft engine domain once the WS-15 is installed on the next prototype of J-20.

But still, Russia possesses more variety of jet engines compared to us. That's why J-20 uses the more powerful domestic engine WS-10G, while J-31 still uses the smaller RD-93.

USSR should have came up with the true 180kN AL-41 if it didn't follow a dissolution.


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Wrong
> 
> al-31f has many derivatives
> 
> Basic one is 123 kn(has no fadec)
> 117s is 142 kn(fadec+)
> 117 is >142 kn but unspecified.(further modification,flying in pakfa)
> 
> idz 30 or type 30----------180 kn vce for pakfa intended.(completely new,maybe inspired from al-41)
> 
> So the rival to f-119 is 117s in su-35.



The Su-35 engine is not comparable to the F119.

Only the scrapped version of AL-41 will be a true superior rival of the F119.

@SvenSvensonov

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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We will completely overtake Russia in the aircraft engine domain once the WS-15 is installed on the next prototype of J-20.
> 
> But still, Russia possesses more variety of jet engines compared to us. That's why J-20 uses the more powerful domestic engine WS-10G, while J-31 still uses the smaller RD-93.
> 
> USSR should have came up with the true 180kN AL-41 if it didn't follow a dissolution.



I don't agree.............u need at least 10 years.
And hey did make al-41,,just had no money to modify it/mass produce it.

Btw is j-31 eligible for export to india??


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Su-35 engine is not comparable to the F119.
> 
> Only the scrapped version of AL-41 will be a true superior rival of the F119.
> 
> @SvenSvensonov



I never said in all specs.
But in thrust at least


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> I don't agree.............u need at least 10 years.
> And hey did make al-41,,just had no money to modify it/mass produce it.
> 
> Btw is j-31 eligible for export to india??



I mean the next gen aircraft engine.

117S is not next gen like F119, not sure about 117, but if it is still another improvement based on 117S, then it won't be the next gen either.

If China has put WS-15 on the J-20 earlier than Russia has with her true next gen on the PAK FA, then sorry, we are leaping ahead.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I mean the next gen aircraft engine.
> 
> 117S is not next gen like F119, not sure about 117, but if it is still another improvement based on 117S, then it won't be the next gen either.
> 
> If China has put WS-15 on the J-20 earlier than Russia has with her true next gen on the PAK FA, then sorry, we are leaping ahead.



U won't have it dude,,its just not believeble.
U cannot make 4-5 categories of engines simultaneously,,not even usa can do that

Patience


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> I never said in all specs.
> But in thrust at least



F119 is 170kN, while 117S is 142kN.


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## AgentOrange

IMO, I don't see why Pakistan *wouldn't* end up with the J-31. In its current iteration, the J-31 runs on 2 RD-93s which also power the JF-17. There's no political barrier for the J-31 being sold to Pakistan and maybe a tech transfer (maybe).


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> F119 is 170kN, while 117S is 142kN.



f-119 is 150 kn class(156)
f-135 is 180-200 kn class


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## he-man

AgentOrange said:


> IMO, I don't see why Pakistan *wouldn't* end up with the J-31. In its current iteration, the J-31 runs on 2 RD-93s which also power the JF-17. There's no political barrier for the J-31 being sold to Pakistan and maybe a tech transfer (maybe).



Pakistan has no money to get it in the first place.
Plus we will get rafale,,so who cares really


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> U won't have it dude,,its just not believeble.
> U cannot make 4-5 categories of engines simultaneously,,not even usa can do that
> 
> Patience



It is not believable for India, but China is just in another category.

For example, your Kaveri engine has to pass its flight test in Russia?! What the heck is that? Why you need Russia to babysit you for everything?

Indigenous Kaveri Engine Clears Flight Tests in Russia

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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> Pakistan has no money to get it in the first place.
> Plus we will get rafale,,so who cares really



J-31 will have first-look, first-shot, first-kill advantage over Rafale.

There is no point comparing a 4.5-gen Rafale against a 5-gen J-31.

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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> J-31 will have first-look, first-shot, first-kill advantage over Rafale.
> 
> There is no point comparing a 4.5-gen Rafale against a 5-gen J-31.



U have no idea whats inside rafale
Chinese need a decade to field the western equivalent in electronics,,,ask a chinese member to decline my claim.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is not believable for India, but China is just in another category.
> 
> For example, your Kaveri engine has to pass its flight test in Russia?! What heck is that? Why you need Russia to babysit you for everything?
> 
> Indigenous Kaveri Engine Clears Flight Tests in Russia



It actually cleared that test but we lack the materials knowledge.
We are at least 10 years behind china. in engines.

In other fields even more


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> f-119 is 150 kn class(156)
> f-135 is 180-200 kn class



The F135 is HBR, while F119 LBR, which is suitable for the supercruise, they are not the same type of engine.

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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> U have no idea whats inside rafale
> Chinese need a decade to field the western equivalent in electronics,,,ask a chinese member to decline my claim.



Who gives a rat's what is inside the Rafale!

J-31 will see the Rafale first and fire multiple BVR missiles at it and kill it. End of story

J-31 will come online around 2020, and by then Chinese radar and electronic tech will be comparable to what France can produce. By 2030 China will have surpassed all countries in military tech bar USA.

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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The F135 is HBR, while F119 LBR, which is suitable for the supercruise, they are not the same type of engine.



We are discussing thrust here.
F-135 is simply miles ahead of anything ever made


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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> Who gives a rat's what is inside the Rafale!
> 
> J-31 will see the Rafale first and fire multiple BVR missiles at it and kill it. End of story
> 
> J-31 will come online around 2020, and by then Chinese radar and electronic tech will be comparable to what France can produce. By 2030 China will have surpassed all countries in military tech bar USA.



By that time french will have Gan aesa based jammers
Don't post garbage here.

Whats truth is truth.


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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Who gives a rat's what is inside the Rafale!
> 
> J-31 will see the Rafale first and fire multiple BVR missiles at it and kill it. End of story
> 
> J-31 will come online around 2020, and by then Chinese radar and electronic tech will be comparable to what France can produce. By 2030 China will have surpassed all countries in military tech bar USA.



Our electronics are already exceeded that of France.

Just tell me when France could come up with the AESA radar that is comparable to that of the Type 052D, or even that of the Type 052C?

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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> By that time french will have Gan aesa based jammers



Who really think France will be able to match China in military tech in 2030?

USA and China will battle it out for military supremacy from 2030 onwards. All others will watch the show.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our electronics are already exceeded that of France.
> 
> Just tell me when France could come up with the AESA radar that is comparable to that of the Type 052D, or even that of the Type 052C?



Ship based aesas are not comparable to fighter based due to heat dissipation problem
So please don't make it a flame war.

Offtopic here

What earphones do u use @ChineseTiger1986 ??


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> It actually cleared that test but we lack the materials knowledge.
> We are at least 10 years behind china. in engines.
> 
> In other fields even more



The engine gap between perhaps much more than just 10 years.

Tell me when do you think that India could come up with an indigenous engine of over 125kN with 3000 hours of total lifespan?

Even you manage to achieve that by 2020, then you are still 15 years behind of China.

Not mention that Kaveri has some serious trouble, and I don't believe that you can come up with a new high thrust engine just in 5 years.


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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> Who really think France will be able to match China in military tech in 2030?
> 
> USA and China will battle it out for military supremacy from 2030 onwards. All others will watch the show.



I said atleast 10 years in my post.
Even after that due to easy component availability among nato they will still have superior r and d simply because they are too many of them when u take nato as a whole with korea and japan.

Don't make stupid claims of x vs y.

Only chance we have lies in asian integration and going eu way but religious nuts won't let it happen


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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our electronics are already exceeded that of France.
> 
> Just tell me when France could come up with the AESA radar that is comparable to that of the Type 052D, or even that of the Type 052C?



Actually France can. It has produced the Empar radar for Horizon frigate which is passive though.

Rafale has an AESA radar and its electronics like Spectra are considered to be very sophisticated.

I agree that in some areas that China has caught up with France in radar and electronics but the French do have a bit more experience but China is catching up fast.

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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The engine gap between perhaps much more than just 10 years.
> 
> Tell me when do you think that India could come up with an indigenous engine of over 125kN with 3000 hours of total lifespan?
> 
> Even you manage to achieve by 2020, then you are still 15 hours behind of China.
> 
> Not mention that Kaveri has some serious trouble, and I don't believe that you can come up with a new high thrust engine just in 5 years.



It can be fixed in 5 years provided we fund it.
It works but we cannot make single crystal blades and its oveweight.


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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> I said atleast 10 years in my post.
> Even after that due to easy component availability among nato they will still have superior r and d simply because they are too many of them when u take nato as a whole with korea and japan.
> 
> Don't make stupid claims of x vs y.
> 
> Only chance we have lies in asian integration and going eu way but religious nuts won't let it happen



LOL. USA does not share its best tech with anyone.

F-22 is not sold to either UK or Japan.


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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> LOL. USA does not share its best tech with anyone.
> 
> F-22 is not sold to either UK or Japan.



Its no full radar but components like mmic's and other materials dude.
They are banned for china

And japan was the first country in the world to produce a Gan mmic.


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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> Its no full radar but components like mmic's and other materials dude.
> They are banned for china
> 
> And japan was the first country in the world to produce a Gan mmic.



Why would China care?

It's electronics industry is maturing and is reckoned to be 5-10 years away from matching Japan and Korea.


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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Actually France can. It has produced the Empar radar for Horizon frigate which is passive though.
> 
> Rafale has an AESA radar and its electronics like Spectra are considered to be very sophisticated.
> 
> I agree that in some areas that China has caught up with France in radar and electronics but the French do have a bit more experience but China is catching up fast.



Sorry, but J-20 is now fielding the AESA radar comparable to F-22 even with the EOTS.

France simply needs to prove themselves by coming up with a true 5th gen aircraft avionics.

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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> Why would China care?
> 
> It's electronics industry is maturing and is reckoned to be 5-10 years away from matching Japan and Korea.



Are u joking??
U seem to be having too much delusion.

Its china vs nato as not one component would be exported to china.Now calculate the combined r and d of nato.

Wake up


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sorry, but J-20 is now fielding the AESA radar comparable to F-22 even with the EOTS.
> 
> France simply needs to prove themselves by coming up with a true 5th gen aircraft avionics.



The avionics in rafale are second to only f-35.
F-22 is too old and outdated in electronics,,j-20 will be better than that as its being mad 15 years later.

The processor speed has increased 1000's of times from 2000 level.
APG-77 simply is too old


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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sorry, but J-20 is now fielding the AESA radar comparable to F-22 even with the EOTS.
> 
> France simply needs to prove themselves by coming up with a true 5th gen aircraft avionics.



OK. let us agree to disagree here.

Anyway we both agree that China has world-class electronics now. It has come a long, long way in the last decade.

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## he-man

UKBengali said:


> OK. let us agree to disagree here.
> 
> Anyway we both agree that China has world-class electronics now. It has come a long, long way in the last decade.



No one doubts that

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## he-man

Why no one is answering me on earphones/headphones??
What brand do u guys use??


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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> It can be fixed in 5 years provided we fund it.
> It works but we cannot make single crystal blades and its oveweight.



Ironically, Rolls Royce has already started to outsource their crystal blades to us.

This is a secret deal, they didn't dare to report it.

无锡透平叶片厂获罗·罗公司订单 大飞机的“中国心”又近一步-观察者网

It is not that they want to let us to copy their technology, it is because China can already make the crystal blades as good as that of the R&R with a much cheaper price.

I was simply LMAO when I saw those anti-China news still boast how China cannot make the proper crystal blades.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Ironically, Rolls Royce has already started to outsource their crystal blades to us.
> 
> This is a secret deal, they didn't dare to report it.
> 
> 无锡透平叶片厂获罗·罗公司订单 大飞机的“中国心”又近一步-观察者网
> 
> It is not that they want to let us to copy their technology, it is because China can already make the crystal blades as good as that of the R&R with a much cheaper price.
> 
> I was simply LMAO when I saw those anti-China news still boast how China cannot make the proper crystal blades.



I never said it,,i said india cannot mass produce it.
But with funding it may be possible in next 5 years.

India is way behind but we will get there

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## ChineseTiger1986

he-man said:


> Why no one is answering me on earphones/headphones??
> What brand do u guys use??



Well, I use the keyboard, not the earphone or headphone.


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## he-man

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, I use the keyboard, not the earphone or headphone.



Thats too bad.
I say this as almost all the brands i use are chinese ordered from hong kong
Cheap and great performance


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## SvenSvensonov

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Su-35 engine is not comparable to the F119.
> 
> Only the scrapped version of AL-41 will be a true superior rival of the F119.
> 
> @SvenSvensonov



Even the AL-41 wouldn't be a good comparison to the F119. Russian engines are notoriously fickle and high maintenance, which was my main reason for surprise when it was announced that the export model of the J-31 would use such an engine. This would give the J-31 poor range and high maintenance costs due to the engines unsuitability. Too be fair no one is sure if these reports are true or not, but if they are it's a sign that China is trying to protect its own engine development by offering Russian engines instead of its own. Russian engines offer good performance, but poor reliability over the course of their lives. I'm in no position to offer an opinion or analysis on China's engine development, given the lack of public information, but historically Chinese engines have been even more unreliable than Russian ones. As China progresses this will probably reverse, but keep in mind the Russian's have been producing engines for far longer than China, almost as long as the US, and they still haven't quite got their designs to be reliable enough. Typically other Western designs are the best comparison for the F119, they offer good performance, reliability and cost. It will be interesting to see China's continued engine development and especially if they can overcome the issues that the Russians have yet to solve.

I am impressed with China new engines though. But I can't say if they are any good or not since nothing about them has been confirmed as far as performance. The WS-15 could come closest to the F119, but again we need to see some confirmed specifications.

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## ChineseTiger1986

SvenSvensonov said:


> Even the AL-41 wouldn't be a good comparison to the F119. Russian engines are notoriously fickle and high maintenance, which was my main reason for surprise when it was announced that the export model of the F-31 would use such an engine. This would give the J-31 poor range, and high maintenance costs due to the engines unsuitability. Too be fair no one is sure if these reports are true or not, but if they are it's a sign that China is trying to protect its own engine development by offering Russian engines instead or its own. Russian engines offer good performance, but poor reliability over the course of their lives. I'm in no position to offer an opinion or analysis on China's engine development, given the lack of public information, but historically Chinese engines have been even more unreliable than Russian ones. As China progresses this will probably reverse, but keep in mind the Russian's have been producing engines for far longer than China, almost as long as the US, and they still haven't quite got their designs to be reliable enough. Typically other Western designs are the best comparison for the F119, they offer good performance, reliability and cost. It will be interesting to see China's continued engine development and especially if they can overcome the issues that the Russians have yet to solve.
> 
> I am impressed with China new engines though. But I can't say if they are any good or not since nothing about them has been confirmed as far as performance. The WS-15 could come closest to the F119, but again we need to see some confirmed specifications.



We are waiting for the new WS-15 to turn the table on this domain.

The basic WS-10 is in fact superior to the basic AL-31 in its design, but it had some problems during the early stage because of the premature stage and the lack of the skillful assembly workers.

The prototype worked finely with 1000 hours of non-stop ground test, but some early mass produced units have suffered some performance problems because the unexperienced assembly workers.

BTW, the TWR of the WS-15 is reported to be around 10-11.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

How come we can't add images on website anymroe


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## zhang5521

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The WS-10A engine and the AF-31F engine have completely different design layout, hence they are not related.
> 
> You talk about WS-10 is a copy of AL-31F, whereas WS-10A is a copy F110, that's not true, it has already been debunked.
> 
> I know explaining with you in Chinese is better for understanding, but it is against the forum rules.


Baidu encyclopedia says so


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> The F-35 is the supposed low end of the Stealth range as well for the US.. even though that is a rather relative and ironic term. In addition, the costs take into account labour costs as well. the quiet and ignored revolution in the Chinese manufacturing industry is quality control whilst still maintaining its relatively cheaper labour costs. That revolution owes its existence to the surge in multi-national firms producing their products in China.
> 
> So the cost in man hours for say a single rivet on the J-20 is easily less than half that of the same on the F-22. A simple widespread example is that the same labour that makes the audio chips for Apple or Samsung also ends up taking that know how and making those chips for Chinese consumer electronic brands. So cost is a very sketchy term to try and judge a products quality these days from China.
> 
> The J-31 may be for export but that is not happening anytime soon. The aircraft has a LONG developmental process to go ahead with and I doubt that the Pakistan Air Force is looking at it for the time being. CATIC has its own product on the line for later and that may suit the PAF's budget and timeline requirements.


I have seen your posts about the J -31, and how often you say that it is not what Pakistan is looking for. Can you please elaborate a bit further, and tell us what platform you think PAF might be looking for, let us say we take out the J-10 and J-31 for now, we can add new F-16s to this list, and since we all know that JF-17 is the priority, that won't fit in the discussion either, so what other choices are there or being contemplated by PAF in your opinion? All is left are the J-20 and the SU-27 family of Chinese birds.


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> The J-20 design may have good stealth from the front.. so if it approaches a target it may have a small radar size. Which is why I have said again and again that the J-20 is more of an interceptor like the Russian Mig-31 rather than like the F-22. This does not mean that it is not stealthy, but that the J-20 is designed for a different type of combat. It is going to be a very effective strike aircraft along with an excellent interceptor.
> 
> The J-31 may have better stealth but not much can be said unless these aircraft go onto a Radar testing area where the values can be checked.


Some relatively pessimistic reports put the RCS of the J-20 and J-31 at the 0.1 square meter specter, and in my own opinion that is the least to say.


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## he-man

SvenSvensonov said:


> Even the AL-41 wouldn't be a good comparison to the F119. Russian engines are notoriously fickle and high maintenance, which was my main reason for surprise when it was announced that the export model of the J-31 would use such an engine. This would give the J-31 poor range and high maintenance costs due to the engines unsuitability. Too be fair no one is sure if these reports are true or not, but if they are it's a sign that China is trying to protect its own engine development by offering Russian engines instead of its own. Russian engines offer good performance, but poor reliability over the course of their lives. I'm in no position to offer an opinion or analysis on China's engine development, given the lack of public information, but historically Chinese engines have been even more unreliable than Russian ones. As China progresses this will probably reverse, but keep in mind the Russian's have been producing engines for far longer than China, almost as long as the US, and they still haven't quite got their designs to be reliable enough. Typically other Western designs are the best comparison for the F119, they offer good performance, reliability and cost. It will be interesting to see China's continued engine development and especially if they can overcome the issues that the Russians have yet to solve.
> 
> I am impressed with China new engines though. But I can't say if they are any good or not since nothing about them has been confirmed as far as performance. The WS-15 could come closest to the F119, but again we need to see some confirmed specifications.



Pure speculation at best.


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## he-man

The SC said:


> Some relatively pessimistic reports put the RCS of the J-20 and J-31 at the 0.1 square meter specter, and in my own opinion that is the least to say.



Where is this data??
Don't just post random numbers here


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## ChineseTiger1986

zhang5521 said:


> Baidu encyclopedia says so



The knowledge came from our big shrimps, but based on the layout, WS-10 is pretty much different from AL-31.

Even that British guy @mike2000 has properly explained that you cannot copy the turbofan engine technology, which is considered as the diamond on the crown for the modern industry.

Inspired by its design yes, but copy no.


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## The SC

@he-man

IMO, If the J-31 is a true 5th generation fighter, it will have at least an RCS 0.01 (still pessimistic), if not 0.005 like the F-35, or even better due to its sleek design.

F-35 / JSF 0.005
F-117 0.003
F-22 0.0001
B-2 0.0001


The radar cross section (RCS) of a target is defined as the effective area intercepting an amount of incident power which, when scattered isotropically, produces a level of reflected power at the radar equal to that from the target. RCS calculations require broad and extensive technical knowledge, thus many scientists and scholars find the subject challenging and intellectually motivating. This is a very complex field that defies simple explanation, and any short treatment is only a very rough approximation.
The units of radar cross section are square meters; however, the radar cross section is NOT the same as the area of the target. Because of the wide range of amplitudes typically encountered on a target, RCS is frequently expressed in dBsm, or decibels relative to one square meter. The RCS is the projected area of a metal sphere that is large compared with the wavelength and that, if substituted for the object, would scatter identically the same power back to the radar. However, the RCS of all but the simplest scatterers fluctuates greatly with the orientation of the object, so the notion of an equivalent sphere is not very useful.





Different structures will exhibit different RCS dependence on frequency than a sphere. However, three frequency regimes are identifiable for most structures. In the Rayleigh region at low frequencies, target dimensions are much less than the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is proportional with the fourth power of the frequency. In the Resonance or Mie Region at medium frequencies, target dimensions and the radar wavelength are in the same order. The RCS oscillates in the resonance region. In the Optical Region of high frequencies, target dimensions are very large compared to the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is roughly the same size as the real area of target. The RCS behaves more simply in the high-frequency region. In this region, the RCS of a sphere is constant.

In general, codes based on the methods-of-moments (MOM) solution to the electrical field integral equation (EFIE) are used to calculate scattering in the Rayleigh and resonance regions. Codes based on physical optics (PO) and the physical theory of diffraction (PTD) are used in the optical or high-frequency region. The target's electrical size (which is proportional to frequency and inversely proportional to the radar wavelength) that determines the appropriate algorithm to calculate the scattering. When the target length is less than 5 to 10 wavelengths, the EFIE-MOM algorithm is used. Alternatively, if the target wavelength is above 5 to 10 wavelengths, the PO-PTD algorithm is used.

The RCS of a stealth aircraft is typically multiple orders of magnitude lower than a conventional plane and is often comparable to that of a small bird or large insect. "From the front, the F/A-22's signature is -40dBm2 (the size of a marble) while the F-35's is -30 dBm2 (the size of a golf ball). The F-35 is said to have a small area of vulnerability from the rear because engineers reduced cost by not designing a radar blocker for the engine exhaust." [Aviation Week & Space Technology; 11/14/2005, page 27] The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. B-2 stealth bomber has a very small cross section. The RCS of a B-26 bomber exceeds 35 dBm2 (3100m2 ) from certain angles. In contrast, the RCS of the B-2 stealth bomber is widely reported to be about -40dBm2 .

A conventional fighter aircraft such as an F-4 has an RCS of about six square meters (m2), and the much larger but low-observable B-2 bomber, which incorporates advanced stealth technologies into its design, by some accounts has an RCS of approximately 0.75 m2 [this is four orders of magintude greater than the widely reported -40dBm2 ]. Some reports give the B-2 a head-on radar cross section no larger than a bird, 0.01 m2 or -20dBm2. A typical cruise missile with UAV-like characteristics has an RCS in the range of 1 m2; the Tomahawk ALCM, designed in the 1970s and utilizing the fairly simple low-observable technologies then available, has an RCS of less than 0.05 m2.

The impact of lowered observability can be dramatic because it reduces the maximum detection range from missile defenses, resulting in minimal time for intercept. The US airborne warning and control system (AWACS) radar system was designed to detect aircraft with an RCS of 7 m2 at a range of at least 370 km and typical nonstealthy cruise missiles at a range of at least 227 km; stealthy cruise missiles, however, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.

Radar scattering from any realistic target is a function of the body's material properties as well as its geometry. Once the specular reflections have been eliminated by radar absorbing materials, only nonspecular or diffractive sources are left. Non-specular scatterers are edges, creeping waves, and traveling waves. They often dominate backscattering patterns of realistic targets in the aspect ranges of most interest. The traveling wave is a high frequency phenomenon. Surface traveling waves are launched for horizontal polarization and grazing angles of incidence on targets with longs mooth surfaces. There is little attenuation from the flat smooth surface, so the wave builds up as it travels along the target. Upon reaching a surface discontinuity, for example an edge, the traveling wave is scattered and part of it propagates back toward the radar. The sum of the traveling waves propagating from the far end of the target toward the near end is the dominant source to the target radar cross section.

The radar cross section (RCS) of a target not only depends on the physical shape and its composite materials, but also on its subcomponents such as antennas and other sensors. These components on the platforms may be designed to meet low RCS requirements as well as their sensor system requirements. In some cases, the onboard sensors can be the predominant factor in determining a platform's total RCS. A typical example is a reciprocal high gain antenna on a low RCS platform. If the antenna beam is pointed toward the radarand the radar frequency is in the antenna operating band, theantenna scattering can be signi?cant.

The traditional measure of an object's scattering behavior is the RCS pattern which plots the scattered field magnitude as a function of aspect angle for a particular frequency and polarization. Although suitable to calculate the power received by a radar operating with those particular parameters, the RCS pattern is an incomplete descriptor of the object's scattering behavior. While the RCS pattern indicates the effect of the scattering mechanism, it does not reveal the physical processes which cause the observed effect. In contrast, imaging techniques, which exploit frequency and angle diversity to spatially resolve the reflectivity distribution of complex objects, allow the association of physical features with scattering mechanisms. These processes, therefore, indicate the causal components of the overall signature level observed in RCS patterns.


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## NKVD

The SC said:


> @he-man
> 
> IMO, If the J-31 is a true 5th generation fighter, it will have at least an RCS 0.01 (still pessimistic), if not 0.005 like the F-35, or even better due to its sleek design.
> 
> F-35 / JSF 0.005
> F-117 0.003
> F-22 0.0001
> B-2 0.0001


j-31 have used RAM Coating and few design change in reducing Rcs Unlike US they have mastered the stealth design and aircraft's like f-35 and,f-22 are fully baked in Fiber-mat Stealth and their structural compositions are Classified .In first impressions of j-31 you can see it is created taking aspect of frontal RCS in A2A combat Typical common in Chinese designs and Russian. but in aerial engagement aircraft should have 360 degree coverage all depend on sensors and jammers used


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## Lil Mathew

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The engine gap between perhaps much more than just 10 years.
> 
> Tell me when do you think that India could come up with an indigenous engine of over 125kN with 3000 hours of total lifespan?
> 
> Even you manage to achieve that by 2020, then you are still 15 years behind of China.
> 
> Not mention that Kaveri has some serious trouble, and I don't believe that you can come up with a new high thrust engine just in 5 years.


Achievement is not high thrust, but thrust to weight ratio (spec impulse, bypass ratio or super cruise ability etc etc are also must be accounted)is the real achievement.. You are just referring thrust class only.. That is a 2000 kg 100KN class turbofan is not a big achievement..
Your WS13( for j31) and kaveri are comparable.. Both have 7.8 thrust to weight ratio.. Did WS13 is fully developed yet??
WS10A is a bigger engine comparable to AL31F.. But AL31F is matured and has a thrust to weight ratio of 7.8 vs 7.5 of WS10A..
F119 in F22 has a thrust to weight ratio of ~10.. China is trying to achieve that with WS15( for j20) with the experience of WS10A development..
So China moving decades above India in engine development is unacceptable.. China now has more money.. But India has a chance to access foreign matured technology( if signed a jv for further kaveri development.. Things may turn upside down in next 10 years.. So wait and see..


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lil Mathew said:


> Achievement is not high thrust, but thrust to weight ratio is the real achievement.. You are just referring thrust class only.. That is a 2000 kg 100KN class turbofan is not a big achievement..
> Your WS13( for j31) and kaveri are comparable.. Both have 7.8 thrust to weight ratio.. Did WS13 is fully developed yet??
> WS10A is a bigger engine comparable to AL31F.. But AL31F is matured and has a thrust to weight ratio of 7.8 vs 7.5 of WS10A..
> F119 in F22 has a thrust to weight ratio of ~10.. China is trying to achieve that with WS15( for j20) with the experience of WS10A development..
> So China moving decades above India in engine development is unacceptable.. China now has more money.. But India has a chance to access foreign matured technology( if signed a jv for further kaveri development.. Things may turn upside down in next 10 years.. So wait and see..



The TWR of the WS-10A is 8, and 9 for the WS-10G.

It is just stouter compared to the AL-31F, but also shorter.

The stouter engine is usually more powerful compared to the lankier one.

India's jet engine technology is nowhere near to that of China, you should take the reality instead of the delusion.

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## SrNair

zhang5521 said:


> j31 is better than lca ，that is enough



But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


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## pursuit of happiness

@wanglaokan
WS engine done ?if yes details ?
Pave pillar .. detail ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
PL21 .. details ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
AESA ready .. details ? better than Russian tech ?
EW.. which one ? detail ? better than islareal l and french EW?


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## Lil Mathew

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The TWR of the WS-10A is 8, and 9 for the WS-10G.
> 
> It is just stouter compared to the AL-31F, but also shorter.
> Hi
> The stouter engine is usually more powerful compared to the lankier one.
> 
> India's jet engine technology is nowhere near to that of China, you should take the reality instead of the delusion.


If China is such a good position in turbofan tech, why jf17 and j31 uses RD-93 instead of WS13???? ( kaveri, ws13, rd93 are all same thrust class)
New Chinese Stealth Fighter Relies on Russian Jet Engine - USNI News 
Everywhere it is quoted that WS10A's thrust to weight ratio is 7.5.. If WS10A is so matured, why first 50 j10s uses AL31F engines???
Don't think China is in par with even Russian tech let alone western..you also should take the reality instead of the delusion.


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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is not believable for India, but China is just in another category.
> 
> For example, your Kaveri engine has to pass its flight test in Russia?! What the heck is that? Why you need Russia to babysit you for everything?
> 
> Indigenous Kaveri Engine Clears Flight Tests in Russia


cause India doesn't have the ground infrastructure to undergo engine test, they don't have everything. the Russia will do the test for Indian for money although they know this very crap can't even work at the first beginning.

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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


First, they are not your own made， second, where are they? To spend money to buy defense? Remember Argentina?


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


The J31 fighter, the j10.j11 fighter jet, which is created by ourselves, and we have the J20, there have been several aircraft in flight, you? We these aircraft are made in China , you made in India? Those of US aircraft not only their own use, but also the export, you? You as an importer, what qualifications and weapons manufacturing country put on a par with? Besides, I have never heard of India imported F35 fighter, is you gave money to India to buy? Ha-ha


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


India's weapons manufacturing is a joke, Arjun tanks, India army don't, LCA, India air force do not, India manufacturing ships? Ha ha, Calcutta destroyer bubble ten years into service, aegis type we Chinese Destroyers have served 6 ships, 7 ships under construction, all of India's domestic weapons are a joke


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## 帅的一匹

Lil Mathew said:


> Achievement is not high thrust, but thrust to weight ratio (spec impulse, bypass ratio or super cruise ability etc etc are also must be accounted)is the real achievement.. You are just referring thrust class only.. That is a 2000 kg 100KN class turbofan is not a big achievement..
> Your WS13( for j31) and kaveri are comparable.. Both have 7.8 thrust to weight ratio.. Did WS13 is fully developed yet??
> WS10A is a bigger engine comparable to AL31F.. But AL31F is matured and has a thrust to weight ratio of 7.8 vs 7.5 of WS10A..
> F119 in F22 has a thrust to weight ratio of ~10.. China is trying to achieve that with WS15( for j20) with the experience of WS10A development..
> So China moving decades above India in engine development is unacceptable.. China now has more money.. But India has a chance to access foreign matured technology( if signed a jv for further kaveri development.. Things may turn upside down in next 10 years.. So wait and see..


I've get bored with these JV BS about engine, who the hell will transfer India the ability to build a decent engine? still live in delusion and never wake up . when Indian can't produce something, they say we need TOT. that's brutal naive.


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## 帅的一匹

no country in this world will transfer the know how of advanced turbojet engine to other country, not even USA to Japan. engine tech is the same as Weapon if mass destruction.

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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


now. tell me ，we j10 has 250 frames. How many of you have LCA fighters?
and we have the j11fighter. Is the man, let's compare their country production aircraft，Buy them weapons, to calculate what skill?
We have J20, J31, J10, j10b.j11.j11b.j15.j16.fbc1. and other domestic fighter, Y8, y9.y12.y20. and other domestic transport, with domestic H6 bombers, kj200.kj2000.kj3000 and other domestic AWACS, now you tell me, in addition to India will make jokes like LCA, but also what? It's really a joke


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> @wanglaokan
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. detail ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
> PL21 .. details ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
> AESA ready .. details ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? detail ? better than islareal l and french EW?


Using the ws10a engine j11b fighter, has been in the South China Sea to intercept America P8 electronic machine, and there are at least 150 j11b in the China service, all is the ws10a engine, unless your eyes can not see


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> @wanglaokan
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. detail ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
> PL21 .. details ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
> AESA ready .. details ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? detail ? better than islareal l and french EW?


You said the weapons, which is made in India?


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> @wanglaokan
> WS engine done ?if yes details ?
> Pave pillar .. detail ? better than isreal and frech avionic ?
> PL21 .. details ?better than r77 , Mica , meter .. ?
> AESA ready .. details ? better than Russian tech ?
> EW.. which one ? detail ? better than islareal l and french EW?


now. tell me ，we j10 has 250 frames. How many of you have LCA fighters?
and we have the j11fighter. Is the man, let's compare their country production aircraft，Buy them weapons, to calculate what skill?
We have J20, J31, J10, j10b.j11.j11b.j15.j16.fbc1. and other domestic fighter, Y8, y9.y12.y20. and other domestic transport, with domestic H6 bombers, kj200.kj2000.kj3000 and other domestic AWACS, now you tell me, in addition to India will make jokes like LCA, but also what? It's really a joke

Source: Prospects of Pakistan acquiring a J-31 derivative and its potential impact. | Page 28


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> But our reply would be FGFA and perhaps naval F 35.


the j31. made in china ，the j20 made in china ，the j10.j10b.j11.j11b.fbc1.y8.y9.y20.kj200.kj2000.kj3000.h6.all of them are made in china. so. 
In addition to LCA，which plane are made in india.？
Disgrace yourself.


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> now. tell me ，we j10 has 250 frames. How many of you have LCA fighters?
> and we have the j11fighter. Is the man, let's compare their country production aircraft，Buy them weapons, to calculate what skill?
> We have J20, J31, J10, j10b.j11.j11b.j15.j16.fbc1. and other domestic fighter, Y8, y9.y12.y20. and other domestic transport, with domestic H6 bombers, kj200.kj2000.kj3000 and other domestic AWACS, now you tell me, in addition to India will make jokes like LCA, but also what? It's really a joke
> 
> Source: Prospects of Pakistan acquiring a J-31 derivative and its potential impact. | Page 28


1. is it lca thread... did we comparing lca ...it was chinese memebr claim for ws 10 ... not mine
2.you have all Js and X accepted.. 
all are pirated.. knok out.. 
india buy original or with TOT ...as per inertntionl agreement ... so dont teach us...
3.despit having al Js and Y and Z in future you need Su 30 mkk from russua and Su35 too..
--
china is good in its own way of self reliance of wepaons...
india dont want to follow same path.. 
put your Js aginst Rafael and Su30mki and see the result..
i know number have own quality but quality has its own number too.. 
its your choice where to follow ...
----


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> 1. is it lca thread... did we comparing lca ...it was chinese memebr claim for ws 10 ... not mine
> 2.you have all Js and X accepted..
> all are pirated.. knok out..
> india buy original or with TOT ...as per inertntionl agreement ... so dont teach us...
> 3.despit having al Js and Y and Z in future you need Su 30 mkk from russua and Su35 too..
> --
> china is good in its own way of self reliance of wepaons...
> india dont want to follow same path..
> put your Js aginst Rafael and Su30mki and see the result..
> i know number have own quality but quality has its own number too..
> its your choice where to follow ...
> ----


What if you are not made, don't say that others do not well, at least we can made. Chinese buy su35 fighter? You give Chinese money to buy? Where is the su35？ you home？


----------



## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> 1. is it lca thread... did we comparing lca ...it was chinese memebr claim for ws 10 ... not mine
> 2.you have all Js and X accepted..
> all are pirated.. knok out..
> india buy original or with TOT ...as per inertntionl agreement ... so dont teach us...
> 3.despit having al Js and Y and Z in future you need Su 30 mkk from russua and Su35 too..
> --
> china is good in its own way of self reliance of wepaons...
> india dont want to follow same path..
> put your Js aginst Rafael and Su30mki and see the result..
> i know number have own quality but quality has its own number too..
> its your choice where to follow ...
> ----


M88 engine thrust is much smaller than ws10a, ws10a is a big thrust engine, M88 is a medium thrust engine. R77 is a joke


----------



## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> 1. is it lca thread... did we comparing lca ...it was chinese memebr claim for ws 10 ... not mine
> 2.you have all Js and X accepted..
> all are pirated.. knok out..
> india buy original or with TOT ...as per inertntionl agreement ... so dont teach us...
> 3.despit having al Js and Y and Z in future you need Su 30 mkk from russua and Su35 too..
> --
> china is good in its own way of self reliance of wepaons...
> india dont want to follow same path..
> put your Js aginst Rafael and Su30mki and see the result..
> i know number have own quality but quality has its own number too..
> its your choice where to follow ...
> ----


M88 engine thrust is only 9 tons, ws10a engine thrust of 13.2 tons, and the ws10a is China own production, he was on the j11b fighter, you see


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> 1. is it lca thread... did we comparing lca ...it was chinese memebr claim for ws 10 ... not mine
> 2.you have all Js and X accepted..
> all are pirated.. knok out..
> india buy original or with TOT ...as per inertntionl agreement ... so dont teach us...
> 3.despit having al Js and Y and Z in future you need Su 30 mkk from russua and Su35 too..
> --
> china is good in its own way of self reliance of wepaons...
> india dont want to follow same path..
> put your Js aginst Rafael and Su30mki and see the result..
> i know number have own quality but quality has its own number too..
> its your choice where to follow ...
> ----


You said China weapon is pirated, so I ask you, what J10 piracy? J20 piracy what? J31 piracy what? F35? The two engine aircraft piracy one engine aircraft? Are you sure that you are awake?


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> You said China weapon is pirated, so I ask you, what J10 piracy? J20 piracy what? J31 piracy what? F35? The two engine aircraft piracy one engine aircraft? Are you sure that you are awake?


dear .. fist thisis not the topic .. its j31 
what your though on reevese engineering and china and IPR?
if im not awak please awak me with above ans


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> M88 engine thrust is only 9 tons, ws10a engine thrust of 13.2 tons, and the ws10a is China own production, he was on the j11b fighter, you see


--
if you claim relaity bravo china 
but you have to prove it is with facts ... 
You CAN beat france rusia, usa but you have to prove it


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> if you claim relaity bravo china
> but you have to prove it is with facts ...
> You CAN beat france rusia, usa but you have to prove it


China 800 fourth generation fighter aircraft, the French only about 500, in addition China and 700 second generation fighter aircraft and two in the development of fifth generation fighter, our ws10a engine than the M88 engine is better, I ask you, I still need to prove what? That you don't know the number of French fighter? That you don't know M88 engine thrust?


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> if you claim relaity bravo china
> but you have to prove it is with facts ...
> You CAN beat france rusia, usa but you have to prove it


India is not French, not Russia, money can't buy technology, money can't buy the defense industry, once the war, the supply of weapons in India will be very difficult, this is your fault, not an advantage, please remember.


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> China 800 fourth generation fighter aircraft, the French only about 500, in addition China and 700 second generation fighter aircraft and two in the development of fifth generation fighter, our ws10a engine than the M88 engine is better, I ask you, I still need to prove what? That you don't know the number of French fighter? That you don't know M88 engine thrust?


--
best of luck with china..
max i say
If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
Sun Tzu


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> if you claim relaity bravo china
> but you have to prove it is with facts ...
> You CAN beat france rusia, usa but you have to prove it


Chinese proved to spend money to buy weapons are not used in World War II, Chinese had German production tanks and USA production aircraft, but still beat Japan, since the end of World War II, Chinese understood the importance of making weapons of their own, this is China blood experience

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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> India is not French, not Russia, money can't buy technology, money can't buy the defense industry, once the war, the supply of weapons in India will be very difficult, this is your fault, not an advantage, please remember.


---
money cant buy it .. accepted...
we have own way of doing it.. slow .. clumsy but our own... 
its a long marathon.. you may loose in laps few times but best strategy will win the matathon 
so let time decide


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> Chinese proved to spend money to buy weapons are not used in World War II, Chinese had German production tanks and USA production aircraft, but still beat Japan, since the end of World War II, Chinese understood the importance of making weapons of their own, this is China blood experience


--
china had advangte of being with aleeys in WWii 
you have system which facilitate secrecy and no question asked 
india work diffrenl... 
china have own game plan so does the inida... 
yes on scale we cant match china as of now.. but on quality may be


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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> best of luck with china..
> max i say
> If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
> Sun Tzu


How apt of you to use a Chinese quote.


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## pursuit of happiness

Donatello said:


> How apt of you to use a Chinese quote.


applies to all india ,, china pak


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> china had advangte of being with aleeys in WWii
> you have system which facilitate secrecy and no question asked
> india work diffrenl...
> china have own game plan so does the inida...
> yes on scale we cant match china as of now.. but on quality may be


Only blood, in order to allow a country to realize the importance of weapons, India is also understand, only India industry is too weak, India can not do, India will not do, That's it


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> Only blood, in order to allow a country to realize the importance of weapons, India is also understand, only India industry is too weak, India can not do, India will not do, That's it


--
remember you satreted 10 yr early than us ..we also lost decade isn poliitcs..
lets wait for 10 more yrs then see the picture


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## Sulman Badshah

[Global military report] at this air show, the Pakistan Air Force exhibited an FC-1 fighter, the scale is less than the previous two exhibitions as a huge contingent of exhibitors. Reporters in China Aviation Museum exhibition FC-1 interview with the Pakistan Air Force Major General Khalid • Major General Mahmoud.

Reporter: Compared to the previous two Zhuhai Air Show, the Zhuhai Airshow this we only saw an FC-1. Why on such a grand celebration, Pakistan did not send "lion" flight demonstration team it?

Khalid: This year's air show is different. *This year's focus is the J-31, -20, and various radar operation. *With them, this is a good session airshow. We understand that. But we also brought a gift, you can see us on the outside of the JF-17 (ie, FC-1).

Reporter: Zhuhai Airshow previous two we can encounter a lot of the Pakistan Air Force pilots and ground crew. But this year we often encounter on the Zhuhai Airshow UAE pilots rarely see Pakistan Air Force personnel.

Khalid: Yes. Before we send a lot of planes fly in Zhuhai, so we'll have a lot of pilots, engineers and service staff. But this time we are coming from Chengdu, came only six people.

Reporter: As you said, the focus is on J-31, you have any comments on behind the J-31?


Khalid: This is a high-tech and high-quality aircraft. Really impressive, so that everyone participate in Zhuhai Air Show this session have left a deep impression. This is a strong signal that China has made considerable progress in aircraft manufacturing. This is a huge jump, but this is not the first time, but the second time. We are also very proud of this, because you are our friend.

Reporter: Zhuhai Airshow last time a lot of Jian Shi Pakistani military officers showed great interest in the past two years Pakistan has the intention to buy Jian Shi it?

Khalid:* We are currently co-production of fighter only JF-17 (ie, FC-1). There are 48 in production. Next month and there will be a number of new fighters appear. *So we have a good few years.

Reporter: Chengdu Jian Shi and J20 is produced, there is no contact with the Pakistan Air Force aircraft?

Khalid:* Our pilots have flown Jian Shi a. But the J-20 to show us before, we only saw, no driving too.* Next month the latest batch of JF-17 will appear, aircraft conducted a lot of improvements, equipped with new weapons. This is great progress.

used google translator
jian shi is J10

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## Donatello

Sulman Badshah said:


> [Global military report] at this air show, the Pakistan Air Force exhibited an FC-1 fighter, the scale is less than the previous two exhibitions as a huge contingent of exhibitors. Reporters in China Aviation Museum exhibition FC-1 interview with the Pakistan Air Force Major General Khalid • Major General Mahmoud.
> 
> Reporter: Compared to the previous two Zhuhai Air Show, the Zhuhai Airshow this we only saw an FC-1. Why on such a grand celebration, Pakistan did not send "lion" flight demonstration team it?
> 
> Khalid: This year's air show is different. *This year's focus is the J-31, -20, and various radar operation. *With them, this is a good session airshow. We understand that. But we also brought a gift, you can see us on the outside of the JF-17 (ie, FC-1).
> 
> Reporter: Zhuhai Airshow previous two we can encounter a lot of the Pakistan Air Force pilots and ground crew. But this year we often encounter on the Zhuhai Airshow UAE pilots rarely see Pakistan Air Force personnel.
> 
> Khalid: Yes. Before we send a lot of planes fly in Zhuhai, so we'll have a lot of pilots, engineers and service staff. But this time we are coming from Chengdu, came only six people.
> 
> Reporter: As you said, the focus is on J-31, you have any comments on behind the J-31?
> 
> 
> Khalid: This is a high-tech and high-quality aircraft. Really impressive, so that everyone participate in Zhuhai Air Show this session have left a deep impression. This is a strong signal that China has made considerable progress in aircraft manufacturing. This is a huge jump, but this is not the first time, but the second time. We are also very proud of this, because you are our friend.
> 
> Reporter: Zhuhai Airshow last time a lot of Jian Shi Pakistani military officers showed great interest in the past two years Pakistan has the intention to buy Jian Shi it?
> 
> Khalid:* We are currently co-production of fighter only JF-17 (ie, FC-1). There are 48 in production. Next month and there will be a number of new fighters appear. *So we have a good few years.
> 
> Reporter: Chengdu Jian Shi and J20 is produced, there is no contact with the Pakistan Air Force aircraft?
> 
> Khalid:* Our pilots have flown Jian Shi a. But the J-20 to show us before, we only saw, no driving too.* Next month the latest batch of JF-17 will appear, aircraft conducted a lot of improvements, equipped with new weapons. This is great progress.
> 
> used google translator
> jian shi is J10



Been hearing next month for the past 12 months. WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE IT !!!!!!!!


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## narcon

First give Pakistan J-10 then talk about the best that you think you got/have!

I know this PDF will be on fire, when Pakistan gets J-10..

Any Peanut that Pakistan possesses as such is turned into a Precious stone and exalted for nothing.

Pakistanis are adept at making a mountain out of a mole hill..

Its their propensity to be one up on Indians, albeit imaginary.

Khali wali...Love me or leave me..

We know how to separate chaffs from the grains.

We did not do kargil - Its Mujhadins stupid!!!

Osama is long dead stupid - He is not in Pakistan!!!


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> remember you satreted 10 yr early than us ..we also lost decade isn poliitcs..
> lets wait for 10 more yrs then see the picture


The defense industry can't set up for 10 years can, I ask you, India has a high precision lathe and bearing? Senior material? If not, is all zero


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> The defense industry can't set up for 10 years can, I ask you, India has a high precision lathe and bearing? Senior material? If not, is all zero


--
to be honest i m not expert in domain..
what i can say.. china is ahed of india and remain for few decades ... 
india is slow but not stagnant..


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> to be honest i m not expert in domain..
> what i can say.. china is ahed of india and remain for few decades ...
> india is slow but not stagnant..


India still has a lot to learn, before this, you cannot fight Chinese, and Chinese has gone you will walk the way，China chasing American, and India, are not Chinese opponent, China didn't put India in the eyes


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> to be honest i m not expert in domain..
> what i can say.. china is ahed of india and remain for few decades ...
> india is slow but not stagnant..


Industry will not be so easily established, it needs at least two generations, if you know China walk this road use much time, and, Chinese go faster than India


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> Industry will not be so easily established, it needs at least two generations, if you know China walk this road use much time, and, Chinese go faster than India


--
that why i said . you getting fruit of your prevous decde work...
india is working so fruits decade ahead. .


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> that why i said . you getting fruit of your prevous decde work...
> india is working so fruits decade ahead. .





pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> that why i said . you getting fruit of your prevous decde work...
> india is working so fruits decade ahead. .


Learn to respect others' success, try to learn from others', to surpass others, belittle others, can only fail


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## zhang5521

to all india friend 
Though J-31 and J-20 fighters have some imperfections , they are China's homebred fifth-generation fighters and they are now ready to rock'n 'roll.Is India now able to build their own FGFs? 
China now has two kinds of homebred third-generation fighters, J-10 and J-11. Does India have ever one kind?India now only have one kind homebred fighter,LCA,but the so-called homebred fighter can only equipped with American jet engines and the localization rate of its avionics system is only 60%.Even though there are so many imported parts in LCA,it still can not satisfy its users. And now even IAF refuses to equip LCA fighters.No doubt the LCA is such a loser.
Chinese J-11B fighter is equipped with Chinese fan jet engines,WS-10A,and homebred radar system.Its localization rate is about 100% and now there are a large number of J-11B fighters serving.Chinese homebred third-generation fighters such as J-10,J-10B,J-11 and J-11B have become the main force of PLAAF for a long time.But India's LCA is now a unwanted child,though it takes tens of years in its development process.
It is CLEAR that Indian homebred fighter is a tragedy, so I sincerely suggest that our Indian friends can drink less Ganges water to help yourselves to get real.You said Cy-30МКИ？Oh come on!PLEASE know the differences between ASSEMBLE and DEVELOPMENT.


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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> that why i said . you getting fruit of your prevous decde work...
> india is working so fruits decade ahead. .


Decades ahead in what? Bullcrapping? Yup, sure.


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## pursuit of happiness

Donatello said:


> Decades ahead in what? Bullcrapping? Yup, sure.


china is decades ahead of india based on their last decade hardwork
india doing now waht china did in 90s so got it ?


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> Learn to respect others' success, try to learn from others', to surpass others, belittle others, can only fail


--
i respect china on its manufactuing success ... SEZ .. export ... some good university ..its a fact 
but 
Defence ... that too indegenus .. Sorry .. may be some 
but most most of your hardware is reverse engineer or blatant abuse of IPR...
this is also fact


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## pursuit of happiness

sreekumar said:


> You know 'Copy paste ' is not an advanced tech.


--
but they still copy paste and do it effectively...india is diffrent ball game but we can learn from them 
but no cut ciopy paste 
heeeee

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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> Do you mean about Shenyang J 11?
> A clear cut version of stealing and copying and of course shameless action.J 31 already made it source when there was a mass cyberhacking in LM from China.Almost identical to F35.
> J 10 still dont see any war .Noone except China inducted this sytem .Dont know its real capabilities


J31 has two engines, F35 is an engine, aerodynamic layout change, we must re blowing hole, and to re arrangement of lines, thus disrupting the overall design, do you think J31 is just so simple replication of the F35? India is not to copy, but to do so, because India has complete industrial system, this is not clear, still need to see the military?

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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> but they still copy paste and do it effectively...india is diffrent ball game but we can learn from them
> but no cut ciopy paste
> heeeee


this is my way.you just cannot ，instead of dont


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## Syed Hussain

The SC said:


> WS-13 or 13 A is already under tests with the J-10s


WS-13 fitting in J-10?????



The SC said:


> J-10B induction, eventhough one squadron was offered to Pakistan for free, or as a gift from China


& a free squadron of J-10s???
Oh God.....I think I should't have commented in the first place...!


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## pursuit of happiness

zhang5521 said:


> this is my way.you just cannot ，instead of dont


---
Ok..
fine


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## zhang5521

pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> Ok..
> fine


this is truth，India industry is too weak

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## SrNair

zhang5521 said:


> J31 has two engines, F35 is an engine, aerodynamic layout change, we must re blowing hole, and to re arrangement of lines, thus disrupting the overall design, do you think J31 is just so simple replication of the F35? India is not to copy, but to do so, because India has complete industrial system, this is not clear, still need to see the military?



Look at the link posted n this page.The real source of your fighter.


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> Look at the link posted n this page.The real source of your fighter.


 
No matter what, two engine aircraft, cannot copy one engine aircraft, if you even the aircraft aerodynamic layout modifications is equal to the re manufacturing aircraft do not know, then you still have what qualified to discuss the air force?


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> Look at the link posted n this page.The real source of your fighter.


 
You said J11B copycat the Sukhoi fighter, so I ask you, Sukhoi fighter can launch SD10 missile?
?


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## SrNair

zhang5521 said:


> You said J11B copycat the Sukhoi fighter, so I ask you, Sukhoi fighter can launch SD10 missile?
> ?



Now I ask you.Do you have any quality to discuss airforce matters?


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> Now I ask you.Do you have any quality to discuss airforce matters?


 
I hope that all the Indians like you stupid, do not know how to change the same aircraft aerodynamic layout, do not know the two engine aircraft and one engine aircraft have what different, so you will never complacent in India in existence, and then stopped, like doing now. 30 years to develop a do not want to use the aircraft--LCA. Nice work


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## zhang5521

sreekumar said:


> Now I ask you.Do you have any quality to discuss airforce matters?


 
Then we China, then every year a large number of new aircraft, we have been upgrading their overall industrial level, we based on domestic aircraft, drive our country industry upgrade, then led to the improvement of people's living standard, drive the social modernization, to earn the money to continue for the development of new fighter, this is a benign cycle. India you do. Because you don't have a good industrial system.


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## Donatello

Why are Indians commenting in this thread?

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## aliyusuf

Most Indian members are here for trolling ... which fulfills their need to gloat, to assure their egos that they are something and generally to be a constant source of pestilence on this forum.


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## Sasquatch

@Horus @Oscar you may want to clean this thread up and ban users from this thread.


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## Donatello

Indian members:
1-Join a thread with some useless BS, ridicule what Pakistan or China do.
2-All weapons built by China and procured by Pakistan are of no use (but they are happy buying products made in China)
3-Post a vague reference to some half baked Indian project
4-Hijack the thread
5-Discussion goes from topic at hand to discussing what is India is doing and how good it must be 20 years from now on
6-Their job for the day is done
7-Thread ruined completely with their idiocy and senseless arguments
8-Broadcast to the world how much inferiority complex they have

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## mr.robot

Shinigami said:


> i once unknowingly bought a chinese copy of beats headphones. lasted just 2 weeks.
> 
> learned the hard way to never buy chinese copies for the rest of my life


Original ones are very likely also made in China. Almost everything these days comes out of Chinese factories, be it original or crap. It is up to you which one you buy.


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## mrnohnaimers

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> i respect china on its manufactuing success ... SEZ .. export ... some good university ..its a fact
> but
> Defence ... that too indegenus .. Sorry .. may be some
> but most most of your hardware is reverse engineer or blatant abuse of IPR...
> this is also fact


I actually like China's approach toward indigenous weapons platform development. It's very practical and goes a step beyond reverse engineering.

I'm glad the Chinese used the air frame designs of Su-27s for their J-11B, Su-33 for J-15 and Su-30 for J-16s. What's the point of wasting resources (both time and money) to create a completely new 4th generation aircraft at this point in time? 5th generation aircrafts are right around the corner, so why spend more $$ and more time to create yet another 4th generation aircraft when those resources can be allocated toward the 5th generation projects such as J-20 and J-31? 

For J-11, J-15 and J-16 China had the following 2 options:

Option 1: Design a completely new 4th generation aircraft.
Pro: So that internet fan boys can have something to brag about

Con: Cost several billion $$ more
Con: Take 4-5 years longer. what can you do to fulfill the current requirements? Import more aircrafts which again cost more $$. So the same amount of $$ allocated will equal far fewer aircrafts. 
Con: By the time the new design is finished, J-20 or J-31 is probably approaching production.... so what's the point of the new design?

Option 2: Base the air frame design on the current flankers and make improvements (using composite in the air frame, better radar, more powerful engine etc)
Pro: Get the planes faster and for a cheaper price
Pro: More investments for the domestic arms industry and more resources available for 5th generation R&D.
Pro: Just look at the end results. J-11B is much better than Su-27, J-15 is much better than the basic Su-33 and J-16 is arguably more advanced than any other Su-30 variants out there (Su-30MKI included.)

Con: None, since due to the arms embargo European & American companies can't sell weapons to China anyways and the Russian companies are so desperate to sell this don't even matter.



Intellectual property rights protection is completely irrelevant when in the realms of national defense. It's the job of any intelligence agency in every country to try to "steal" information and technology.

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## The SC

Syed Hussain said:


> WS-13 fitting in J-10?????
> 
> 
> & a free squadron of J-10s???
> Oh God.....I think I should't have commented in the first place...!



That was for JF-17 and J-31, which were undergoing tests with the WS-13, The J-10 will have/ has the WS-10.
The WS-13 Taishan was certified in 2007 and serial production began in 2009. The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.

In November 2012, Aviation Week reported that a JF-17 Thunder is flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine.

The WS-10 is a high power, high thrust to weight ratio and low bypass ratio engine with 12 stage structures, including a 3-level fan, nine-level stator, one-level high pressure compressor and one low pressure compressor. For the development of WS-10, China made almost 300 breakthroughs in aviation technologies and materials, such as transonic turbine, air film cooling blade, integrated fan rotor by electron beam welding, squeeze film damper, metal brush seal, high energy igniter, variable camber inlet guide vanes and convergent / divergent nozzle. The combined cooling blade of turbine used hi-tech materials called Directionally Solidified Eutectic Super-alloy and can stand 5000 time tests without cracking.

That offer of a free squadron of J-10s was reported some time ago, during a visit by some previous Pakistani prime minister to China. you can still find it on the net.


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## Bratva

*Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
12 November 2014


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to _IHS Jane's_ .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.

In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told _IHS Jane's_ that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.

(134 of 373 words)

@TheOccupiedKashmir @fatman17 Can you get full access to article ?

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## AsianLion

http://www.janes.com...uy-30-40-fc-31s

*Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'*

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
12 November 2014

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.

In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.


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## siegecrossbow

I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17.

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## The SC

Bratva said:


> *Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'*
> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
> 12 November 2014
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> "The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.
> 
> The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.
> 
> In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told _IHS Jane's_ that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> (134 of 373 words)
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @fatman17 Can you get full access to article ?


The article makes sense since the J-10s were skipped, and one of the reasons is most probably the little time frame that Pakistan had to wait to induct a much more potent platform, the second reason being the platform is a 5th generation one, the third reason is about the common engine with the JF-17 platform.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

..MORE dreams


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## The SC

You are right, and induction should start as soon as the J-31 is available, since it is quite a potent fighter even if in its first version or block (not talking about the prototype here, but the first version that will be inducted) it should mature in time, so there is no need to wait for that to happen, the F-35 is still undergoing tests, and is not that mature either, but it is being inducted in many countries.
That is the way it works in real life, upgrades and improvements will follow suite for the rest of the plane life.
I do think that the J-31 will follow approximatively the same path of induction in PAF as the JF-17. Start in 2018 with a 30 to 40 block 1, 30 to 40 block 2 and a block 3 to make it around 100 to120 5th generation fighter planes by 2025.
2018 is about the same time that JF-17 block 3 will be finalized and 150 planes would be inducted. Blocks 4 and 5, would most probably be skipped to start production of the J-31.

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## chhota bheem

siegecrossbow said:


> I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a *true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17*.


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## cirr

siegecrossbow said:


> I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17.



But the J-21 will use *NEW advanced medium thrust* engines，not the stop-gap Russian engines currently in 31001。


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## pursuit of happiness

mrnohnaimers said:


> I actually like China's approach toward indigenous weapons platform development. It's very practical and goes a step beyond reverse engineering.
> 
> I'm glad the Chinese used the air frame designs of Su-27s for their J-11B, Su-33 for J-15 and Su-30 for J-16s. What's the point of wasting resources (both time and money) to create a completely new 4th generation aircraft at this point in time? 5th generation aircrafts are right around the corner, so why spend more $$ and more time to create yet another 4th generation aircraft when those resources can be allocated toward the 5th generation projects such as J-20 and J-31?
> 
> For J-11, J-15 and J-16 China had the following 2 options:
> 
> Option 1: Design a completely new 4th generation aircraft.
> Pro: So that internet fan boys can have something to brag about
> 
> Con: Cost several billion $$ more
> Con: Take 4-5 years longer. what can you do to fulfill the current requirements? Import more aircrafts which again cost more $$. So the same amount of $$ allocated will equal far fewer aircrafts.
> Con: By the time the new design is finished, J-20 or J-31 is probably approaching production.... so what's the point of the new design?
> 
> Option 2: Base the air frame design on the current flankers and make improvements (using composite in the air frame, better radar, more powerful engine etc)
> Pro: Get the planes faster and for a cheaper price
> Pro: More investments for the domestic arms industry and more resources available for 5th generation R&D.
> Pro: Just look at the end results. J-11B is much better than Su-27, J-15 is much better than the basic Su-33 and J-16 is arguably more advanced than any other Su-30 variants out there (Su-30MKI included.)
> 
> Con: None, since due to the arms embargo European & American companies can't sell weapons to China anyways and the Russian companies are so desperate to sell this don't even matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Intellectual property rights protection is completely irrelevant when in the realms of national defense. It's the job of any intelligence agency in every country to try to "steal" information and technology.


--
as i said.. china is doing good... but base of that is reverse enineering...
if IPR is irrerlevant for china for national def .. on other side IPR of Al31 or su35 is one of most imp secrets of national secuirty of Russia ...
you cant play with others national secuirty....
These Su design and related sub system info is base of defence strategy of concern nation,,
--
Strategy...
China ... opemy use reverse engineinrg .. suported hugly by govt and political envi
india....more in to TOT .not much enthusiam till now by govt.. 
what china will have is inedegenis product and trained HR
what india will ahve is forign -indian mix of product with trained HR .... with some nastry $ payments 
india just opned defece to private sector ...now its game on.. for india... but big leap to match china


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## AsianLion

^^^ Dear Indian, badmouthing about China and Chinese is banned on a Pakistani Discussion Forum.

China reverse engineering is actually a prefered technology qimick around the world, to stay up-to-date. Tell me which country does not do it, in West.



Pakistani J-31 Stealth with Manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and so much similarity with its JF17s Thunder Programme.

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## The SC

The whole F-16 program costed Pakistan more than $ 5.5 billion. It was vital and very important, this fact being known to Washington and allies, they have put strings attached to that deal...up till now!!!
I would say that for the same amount, Pakistan will get around 100 J-31s, with ToT and...with no strings attached.

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## AsianLion

The SC said:


> The whole F-16 program costed Pakistan more than $ 5.5 billion. It was vital and very important, this fact being known to Washington and allies, they have put strings attached to that deal...up till now!!!
> I would say that for the same amount, Pakistan will get around 100 J-31s, with ToT and...with no strings attached.




Brother, greatest worry everyone is asking is that only one Prototype of J-31 is seen yet, since OCT 2012. Second is RD-93,J-31 need new upgraded engines with strong power, since when more weapons are installed it will become more heavier and need more power. 

J31 with RD-93M upgraded ones with better power, and less smoke should be on prototype 2.


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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> ^^^ Dear Indian, badmouthing about China and Chinese is banned on a Pakistani Discussion Forum.
> 
> China reverse engineering is actually a prefered technology qimick around the world, to stay up-to-date. Tell me which country does not do it, in West.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani J-31 Stealth with Manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and so much similarity with its JF17s Thunder Programme.


Reverse engineering is an engineering field of its own, I might add that it is the most difficult of all engineering fields. since, in any field of engineering one has to master that field first, then try that engineering on a reverse gear.
I know what it means in real life engineering, but the best example I have found to describe it is in Kung Fu (or any other martial art where there are Kata (forms)), when one masters a complicated form (Kata) and has to master it in reverse too, which constitutes the acme of skill.

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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> Brother, greatest worry everyone is asking is that only one Prototype of J-31 is seen yet, since OCT 2012.
> 
> .


That is like the JF-17 block 2, all we all have heard was 2 in production, and all of a sudden there are going to be 40 or 50 unveiled in December this year!!!

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## he-man

The SC said:


> @he-man
> 
> IMO, If the J-31 is a true 5th generation fighter, it will have at least an RCS 0.01 (still pessimistic), if not 0.005 like the F-35, or even better due to its sleek design.
> 
> F-35 / JSF 0.005
> F-117 0.003
> F-22 0.0001
> B-2 0.0001
> 
> 
> The radar cross section (RCS) of a target is defined as the effective area intercepting an amount of incident power which, when scattered isotropically, produces a level of reflected power at the radar equal to that from the target. RCS calculations require broad and extensive technical knowledge, thus many scientists and scholars find the subject challenging and intellectually motivating. This is a very complex field that defies simple explanation, and any short treatment is only a very rough approximation.
> The units of radar cross section are square meters; however, the radar cross section is NOT the same as the area of the target. Because of the wide range of amplitudes typically encountered on a target, RCS is frequently expressed in dBsm, or decibels relative to one square meter. The RCS is the projected area of a metal sphere that is large compared with the wavelength and that, if substituted for the object, would scatter identically the same power back to the radar. However, the RCS of all but the simplest scatterers fluctuates greatly with the orientation of the object, so the notion of an equivalent sphere is not very useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Different structures will exhibit different RCS dependence on frequency than a sphere. However, three frequency regimes are identifiable for most structures. In the Rayleigh region at low frequencies, target dimensions are much less than the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is proportional with the fourth power of the frequency. In the Resonance or Mie Region at medium frequencies, target dimensions and the radar wavelength are in the same order. The RCS oscillates in the resonance region. In the Optical Region of high frequencies, target dimensions are very large compared to the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is roughly the same size as the real area of target. The RCS behaves more simply in the high-frequency region. In this region, the RCS of a sphere is constant.
> 
> In general, codes based on the methods-of-moments (MOM) solution to the electrical field integral equation (EFIE) are used to calculate scattering in the Rayleigh and resonance regions. Codes based on physical optics (PO) and the physical theory of diffraction (PTD) are used in the optical or high-frequency region. The target's electrical size (which is proportional to frequency and inversely proportional to the radar wavelength) that determines the appropriate algorithm to calculate the scattering. When the target length is less than 5 to 10 wavelengths, the EFIE-MOM algorithm is used. Alternatively, if the target wavelength is above 5 to 10 wavelengths, the PO-PTD algorithm is used.
> 
> The RCS of a stealth aircraft is typically multiple orders of magnitude lower than a conventional plane and is often comparable to that of a small bird or large insect. "From the front, the F/A-22's signature is -40dBm2 (the size of a marble) while the F-35's is -30 dBm2 (the size of a golf ball). The F-35 is said to have a small area of vulnerability from the rear because engineers reduced cost by not designing a radar blocker for the engine exhaust." [Aviation Week & Space Technology; 11/14/2005, page 27] The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. B-2 stealth bomber has a very small cross section. The RCS of a B-26 bomber exceeds 35 dBm2 (3100m2 ) from certain angles. In contrast, the RCS of the B-2 stealth bomber is widely reported to be about -40dBm2 .
> 
> A conventional fighter aircraft such as an F-4 has an RCS of about six square meters (m2), and the much larger but low-observable B-2 bomber, which incorporates advanced stealth technologies into its design, by some accounts has an RCS of approximately 0.75 m2 [this is four orders of magintude greater than the widely reported -40dBm2 ]. Some reports give the B-2 a head-on radar cross section no larger than a bird, 0.01 m2 or -20dBm2. A typical cruise missile with UAV-like characteristics has an RCS in the range of 1 m2; the Tomahawk ALCM, designed in the 1970s and utilizing the fairly simple low-observable technologies then available, has an RCS of less than 0.05 m2.
> 
> The impact of lowered observability can be dramatic because it reduces the maximum detection range from missile defenses, resulting in minimal time for intercept. The US airborne warning and control system (AWACS) radar system was designed to detect aircraft with an RCS of 7 m2 at a range of at least 370 km and typical nonstealthy cruise missiles at a range of at least 227 km; stealthy cruise missiles, however, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.
> 
> Radar scattering from any realistic target is a function of the body's material properties as well as its geometry. Once the specular reflections have been eliminated by radar absorbing materials, only nonspecular or diffractive sources are left. Non-specular scatterers are edges, creeping waves, and traveling waves. They often dominate backscattering patterns of realistic targets in the aspect ranges of most interest. The traveling wave is a high frequency phenomenon. Surface traveling waves are launched for horizontal polarization and grazing angles of incidence on targets with longs mooth surfaces. There is little attenuation from the flat smooth surface, so the wave builds up as it travels along the target. Upon reaching a surface discontinuity, for example an edge, the traveling wave is scattered and part of it propagates back toward the radar. The sum of the traveling waves propagating from the far end of the target toward the near end is the dominant source to the target radar cross section.
> 
> The radar cross section (RCS) of a target not only depends on the physical shape and its composite materials, but also on its subcomponents such as antennas and other sensors. These components on the platforms may be designed to meet low RCS requirements as well as their sensor system requirements. In some cases, the onboard sensors can be the predominant factor in determining a platform's total RCS. A typical example is a reciprocal high gain antenna on a low RCS platform. If the antenna beam is pointed toward the radarand the radar frequency is in the antenna operating band, theantenna scattering can be signi?cant.
> 
> The traditional measure of an object's scattering behavior is the RCS pattern which plots the scattered field magnitude as a function of aspect angle for a particular frequency and polarization. Although suitable to calculate the power received by a radar operating with those particular parameters, the RCS pattern is an incomplete descriptor of the object's scattering behavior. While the RCS pattern indicates the effect of the scattering mechanism, it does not reveal the physical processes which cause the observed effect. In contrast, imaging techniques, which exploit frequency and angle diversity to spatially resolve the reflectivity distribution of complex objects, allow the association of physical features with scattering mechanisms. These processes, therefore, indicate the causal components of the overall signature level observed in RCS patterns.




It uses useless rd-93 engine.
No one knows what radar it uses.
What irst it uses?
What type of maws it has?

Have u seen the radar complex of pakfa??
It has 270 degrees coverage with 2300 t/r elements for russian version with l band iff which is first in a fighter aircraft.

Indian version will have 360 degrees aesa coverage.


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## Mav3rick

Just wondering how ***** will be set on fire if Pakistan acquires a 5th Gen Fighter ahead of India getting her hands on either PAK-FA or Rafale. I mean that would put all IAF forward bases at the mercy of PAF and thereby nullify any single advantage that any Indian Jet may have over PAF.

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## Saifullah Sani

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

*"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.*

The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.

In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

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## fatman17

its a med to long term prospect - 2018-2020. FC-31 would need a lot of development and evaluation with PAF wanting many modifications and western systems.
its a good start

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## he-man

Hot air
Although j-31 looks good we have no idea whats inside.

Anyways it will be a quantum leap from jf-17 for sure

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## Zarvan

Saifullah Sani said:


> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .
> 
> *"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.*
> 
> The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.
> 
> In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360


Dam we are already in talks that is fast thing to do we should also go for new Cruise Missiles displayed by China I am talking about Air variant but still production would start at least by 2018 and if our economy seriously improves by than than 3 squadrons or in other words having 54 Jets by 2020 and 2022 would be great


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## he-man

fatman17 said:


> its a med to long term prospect - 2018-2020. FC-31 would need a lot of development and evaluation with PAF wanting many modifications and western systems.
> its a good start



That u won't get in a chinese 5 gen aircraft,,,one of the side effect of chinese
Evenindia will have problems in getting western stuff in pakfa if russia continues to rile the west


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## farhan_9909

Something inevitable,Perfectly fit PAF doctrine

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## he-man

Zarvan said:


> Dam we are already in talks that is fast thing to do we should also go for new Cruise Missiles displayed by China I am talking about Air variant but still production would start at least by 2018 and if our economy seriously improves by than than 3 squadrons or in other words having 54 Jets by 2020 and 2022 would be great



Those cruise missiles are untested as of now


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## The SC

It is a 5th generation fighter. What do you expect it to use, in avionics, radar and so on ?
the engine is, well we all know is a stop gap for the prototype. And what the Chinese mean with it , is , if the J-31 can perform well on a "sh***" engine, you can expect its performance to be greater with a better (in production) Chinese engine.


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## NKVD

Saifullah Sani said:


> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .
> 
> *"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.*
> 
> The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.
> 
> In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360


30-40 means 3-4 billion $.that's a whole budget of PaF itself so what they will do with rest of the fleet :O


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## he-man

The SC said:


> It is a 5th generation fighter. What do you expect it to use, in avionics, radar and so on .
> the engine is, well we all know is a stop gap for the prototype. And what the Chinese mean with it , is , if the J-31 can perform well on a "sh***" engine, you can expect its performance to be greater with a better (in production) Chinese engine.



A very evasive answer telling me nothing.
Making an engine is no joke,,till i see the stats on manufacturer's website i have no trust


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## farhan_9909

NKVD said:


> 30-40 means 3-4 billion $.that's a whole budget of PaF itself so what they will do with rest of the fleet :O



Bhai jaan,we will considering signing the deal most probably in 2018-19,by than our Budget will be more than enough considering we are all set to change our base year of GDP next year.

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## The SC

he-man said:


> A very evasive answer telling me nothing.
> Making an engine is no joke,,till i see the stats on manufacturer's website i have no trust


Confidential, Secret, Top secret.
You are too curious for now, when the specs would be out, you'll know.


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## he-man

The SC said:


> Confidential, Secret, Top secret.
> You are too curious for now, when the specs would be out, you'll know.



It will never have 360 aesa coverage ,,nor the l band aesa iff.
That we already know.

As for the engine india will have a 180 kn engine in 2020-21,idz 30 and it will be an upgrade over 117s of su-35.
Needless to say better than whatever chinese come up with.


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## volatile

NKVD said:


> 30-40 means 3-4 billion $.that's a whole budget of PaF itself so what they will do with rest of the fleet :O


Any air force doesnt buy and pay on one day there are always payment terms i m sure one`s who are negotiating knows way better then us .


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## he-man

farhan_9909 said:


> Bhai jaan,we will considering signing the deal most probably in 2018-19,by than our Budget will be more than enough considering we are all set to change our base year of GDP next year.



Also the payment will be made over many years.
Still costly proposition.

The bigger thing to worry about will be performance if ws series engines are not ready,,then only option left will be rd-93


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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> its a med to long term prospect - 2018-2020. FC-31 would need a lot of development and evaluation with PAF wanting many modifications and western systems.
> its a good start



I think more better if Pakistan can license produce the FC-31 with necessary Pakistan specific modification and upgrade .

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## Arsalan

We are talking about a 2018-2020 timeline for the procurement, This gives enough time to arrange funding, better assessment of the plane, proper evaluation, required modifications etc. It is very early to jump on conclusions that who will Pakistan arrange for money or who the will the plane perform or whether we will require some western systems and will they be allowed! lots of things can and will change in theses 5/6 years. It is good news that PAF have registered there interest and we can now go ahead from here. 
What is really pleasing for me is that 2018/2020 timeline means that we will keep on working on JF-17 future blocks. I am very optimistic about the future role of JF-17 in PAF. Not investing in J10 also seem to be a good move now considering that we can keep working on JF17 (as it is necessary for us now) and in about 5/6 years can go to fifth generation plane.

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## salman-1

By the nature of rapid development of chinese, The FC-31 will be available to PAF in next 2 years max as AESA radar technology is already in J10-b fighters and the aircraft shown with specs by AVIC IN ZHUHAI clearly shows AESA radar installed in it, the laser designator with golden window shows its ready or in test trial with the aircraft, retractable fuel probe, stealth features of air frame etc are available. PAF helped china develop DSI intakes in J-10b , internal weapons bay with new missiles has also an impressive layout. What comes out to be is a mixture of latest 4th and some fifth generation technology. *It seems more like an advanced F-15 covered with a stealth airframe of F-35*. 
Technology used is of 4 -4.5 generation but air frame is of stealth as Chinese even don't have their own engine, cruise control is out of question.


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## razgriz19

Stop dreaming people. I can guarantee you J-31 won't see service with PAF until the F-16 starts retiring. 
That's not going to happen till 2025 at the very least.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Where are those Block 2 JF17 thunders the war is about to start


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## My-Analogous

zhang5521 said:


> thank you for reminding me,
> Before I published a news from China, the news that a WS13 engine developed, has begun to enter the preparation of the production stage, and the WS13 engine thrust is medium thrust engine, because China already have WS10 and WS10A and WS15 three kinds of high thrust engines, while WS13 is used for equipment JF17 and J31 such a medium fighter, so do not need a lot of thrust, but must take the size is reduced, and because J31 is equipped with two WS13 engine, so the total thrust is bigger than F35, but like JF17, J31 is also a medium fighter, so they like F35 don't need to have supersonic cruise capability, they do not need long range combat, so do not need to have the ability to supercruise, only large range fighter just need that kind of ability, while the J31 only need to complete a good distance and near distance operational tasks can be, there is a J31 using two WS13 engine, can realize the super maneuver capability.
> do you understand me?i'msorry ,my english is so bad.hehehe



Believe me your english is not that bad as you think so keep writing

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## salman-1

razgriz19 said:


> Stop dreaming people. I can guarantee you J-31 won't see service with PAF until the F-16 starts retiring.
> That's not going to happen till 2025 at the very least.


PAF is already working on it for near future induction. Read interviews to IHS'Janes


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## salman-1

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

*"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official*

Source: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'


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## The SC

NKVD said:


> 30-40 means 3-4 billion $.that's a whole budget of PaF itself so what they will do with rest of the fleet :O


They are not buying the F-35 buddy, just the J-31 which should be half the price of the latter, so, make it 100 planes for $5 billion, spread on 10 years from now, that means Pakistan can budget for it about $500 million a year for the next 10 years, so by 2025 100 J-31 will be paid for and flying under the colors of PAF.


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## My-Analogous

Oscar said:


> I understand, but think of it as a safety. In case there is not enough time to produce WS-13, the RD-93 can still work to keep the program going. China's slow progress in engines in not related to the design of the engine and China can if it wishes design an engine that can compete with Russian engines easily. China's problem has been with metal alloy manufacturing for engines which has slowed its local engine programs down.



The only problem with Chinese engines is heat signature and their they were strangling to keep heat signature low and now somehow they are now come up with something to keep that into satisfactory level and now working on to the level of good.


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## Derolo

Will we get Pak-fa/fgfa first or will paf get j-31 first...

Should be close


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## trident2010

Pakistan can get F-35 instead. US is its ally and F-35s are the second best after F-22 atm.


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## Stealth

*Full report - Read Carefully*


_"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official._

*Which Govt official said to IHS Jane's according to the report by the way ????*

_In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters._

_*Now what next already 7 years gone ????*_


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## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> It will never have 360 aesa coverage ,,nor the l band aesa iff.
> That we already know.
> 
> As for the engine india will have a 180 kn engine in 2020-21,idz 30 and it will be an upgrade over 117s of su-35.
> Needless to say better than whatever chinese come up with.



Which one have 180kn even AL-31F have 176kn after burn thrust, so please give us the source of claim


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## Asfandyar Khan

Can't see this bird in PAF before 2020 if not 2025. Our economy is going downhill and soon NATO war in Afghanistan will end so say good bye to that aid.
We need to stand on own feet first and the buy these toys...otherwise we will end up as north korea


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## Ultima Thule

he-man said:


> It will never have 360 aesa coverage ,,nor the l band aesa iff.
> That we already know.
> 
> As for the engine india will have a 180 kn engine in 2020-21,idz 30 and it will be an upgrade over 117s of su-35.
> Needless to say better than whatever chinese come up with.


what India is making 180 kn class engine in 2020-21 in your wet dream, even you don't make kaveri for LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT, finish kaveri first then talk about idz 30

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## SpArK

he-man said:


> It uses useless rd-93 engine.
> No one knows what radar it uses.
> What irst it uses?
> What type of maws it has?
> 
> Have u seen the radar complex of pakfa??
> It has 270 degrees coverage with 2300 t/r elements for russian version with l band iff which is first in a fighter aircraft.
> 
> Indian version will have 360 degrees aesa coverage.




Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com


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## Stealth



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## he-man

pakistanipower said:


> what India is making 180 kn class engine in 2020-21 in your wet dream, even you don't make kaveri for LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT, finish kaveri first then talk about idz 30



U need to cut the rhetoric mate,,,and gain some knowledge.
Su-35 already flies with 142 kn engine,,,pakfa will have newer 180 kn idz 30 engine


----------



## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Which one have 180kn even AL-31F have 176kn after burn thrust, so please give us the source of claim



Its a well known fact,all articles are in russian,search ypurself.
Russians already had al-41 producing 180 kn 20 years back


----------



## My-Analogous

NKVD said:


> j-31 have used RAM Coating and few design change in reducing Rcs Unlike US they have mastered the stealth design and aircraft's like f-35 and,f-22 are fully baked in Fiber-mat Stealth and their structural compositions are Classified .In first impressions of j-31 you can see it is created taking aspect of frontal RCS in A2A combat Typical common in Chinese designs and Russian. but in aerial engagement aircraft should have 360 degree coverage all depend on sensors and jammers used



Not any more  Usama effects


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## he-man

And to ignorant members stop wasting everyone's time.Once u are on a defence forum behave.

@pakistanipower

T-50
Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) - 5th Generation Multi-Role Stealth Aircraft - Page 2 of 2
The testing of a new engine intended for PAK FA will be started in 2014 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

Now don't cry

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## sathya

It would be better for Pakistan industry if it gets an aircraft that it can license manufacture 

Ie after the production of JF 17,

Otherwise facilities would get downgraded or wasted ,

I highly doubt china will allow their flagship project to be license produced in Pakistan for less than optimum numbers..


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## NKVD

ghazaliy2k said:


> Not any more  Usama effects



The FC-31 is designed to look like a stealth fighter aircraft in the class of the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. It is also the second, but smaller, stealth-type design to be developed by China. The FC-31's "Big Brother," the Chengdu J-20, first flew in January 2011 but has been shrouded in secrecy ever since.

The FC-31 "looks" stealthy and its shape mimics that of the F-35 in some respects. But it is impossible to tell just how successful the Shenyang design team has been in developing an aircraft with a low radar cross section without knowing the materials used, the placement of the engines inside the aircraft, and how well the heat signature from the engines has been suppressed by the design of the exhaust nozzle section.

Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com


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## he-man

@ghazaliy2k


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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com


Good enough to slaughter any type of fighter in IAF's inventory.

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## My-Analogous

Lil Mathew said:


> If China is such a good position in turbofan tech, why jf17 and j31 uses RD-93 instead of WS13???? ( kaveri, ws13, rd93 are all same thrust class)
> New Chinese Stealth Fighter Relies on Russian Jet Engine - USNI News
> Everywhere it is quoted that WS10A's thrust to weight ratio is 7.5.. If WS10A is so matured, why first 50 j10s uses AL31F engines???
> Don't think China is in par with even Russian tech let alone western..you also should take the reality instead of the delusion.



Pakistani J31 will have RD93 (S) new version b/c we already have train engineers and technician for that and Chinese will have WS10 A and if we got embargo from Russia then we will easily switch to WS10A and on that time it will be much mature then own and well tested also


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## he-man

NKVD said:


> The FC-31 is designed to look like a stealth fighter aircraft in the class of the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. It is also the second, but smaller, stealth-type design to be developed by China. The FC-31's "Big Brother," the Chengdu J-20, first flew in January 2011 but has been shrouded in secrecy ever since.
> 
> The FC-31 "looks" stealthy and its shape mimics that of the F-35 in some respects. But it is impossible to tell just how successful the Shenyang design team has been in developing an aircraft with a low radar cross section without knowing the materials used, the placement of the engines inside the aircraft, and how well the heat signature from the engines has been suppressed by the design of the exhaust nozzle section.
> 
> Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com



These trolls have 0 knowledge,,no need to waste time.
I think they are even unaware of stuff in jf-17,,,forget about indian stuff

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> Good enough to slaughter any type of fighter in IAF's inventory.



Oh,no
Be specific next time.


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## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Pakistani J31 will have RD93 (S) new version b/c we already have train engineers and technician for that and Chinese will have WS10 A and if we got embargo from Russia then we will easily switch to WS10A and on that time it will be much mature then own and well tested also



Rd 93 will remain shit,use whatever version u want.
It just cannot power a 5 gen properly with 100 kn thrust estimate for newer variant.

Mki will be upgraded to su-35 enfine,117s producing 142 kn ,,indian pakfa will have 180 kn class engine


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## Ultima Thule

he-man said:


> U need to cut the rhetoric mate,,,and gain some knowledge.
> Su-35 already flies with 142 kn engine,,,pakfa will have newer 180 kn idz 30 engine


it mean you dont have a clue india doesnt have the capabilites to develop a180 kn class engineinstead russia has to develop idz 30 not india btw you first complete kaveri than speak that you can make something like idz 31 in 2090 to 2100rofl:


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## he-man

pakistanipower said:


> it mean you dont have a clue india doesnt have the capabilites to develop a180 kn class engineinstead russia has to develop idz 30 not india btw you first complete kaveri than speak that you can make something like idz 31 in 2090 to 2100rofl:



Great technical answer like i expected from u.

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## he-man

@wanglaokan 

U have doubts about 117 s engine?


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## 帅的一匹

T50 is far behind its scheldue, no earlier than year 2020. Russian will not TOT any important tech to India, cause they don't want to let go the cash cow. While USA refuse Javelin TOT to India, Russia will take India for granted in the future. China will overtake India in airforce in the next decades without doubt. The Su35 deal will be signed soon, J20 is on its way. Tell me how India is gonna deal with PLAAF in the coming years? The anwser is probably very persimistic.


----------



## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> Good enough to slaughter any type of fighter in IAF's inventory.



Okay.


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> @wanglaokan
> 
> U have doubts about 117 s engine?


No, i just think WS15 is much better.


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> No, i just think WS15 is much better.



No its not.
117S has claimed 4000 hours life on npo saturn website while chinese agree their engine will be about 3000 hours.
Well if not,prove me wrong


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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Okay.


You guys will pay the price if you ignored Chinese weapon system, you are not good enough to be a ANAlYST. ALL you judgment is based on wild guess from some western source, i'm sure you don't know we are capable of. You think you really smart, acutally you are not. I would not even borther to teach you a lesson, you are not gonna understand how lame IAF is compared to PLAAF.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> T50 is far behind its scheldue, no earlier than year 2020. Russian will not TOT any important tech to India, cause they don't want to let go the cash cow. While USA refuse Javelin TOT to India, Russia will take India for granted in the future. China will overtake India in airforce in the next decades without doubt. The Su35 deal will be signed soon, J20 is on its way. Tell me how India is gonna deal with PLAAF in the coming years? The anwser is probably very persimistic.



India will get everything and more as ours will have idz engine.
Plus like mki we can integrate western stuff.

U cannot,,neither can russians themselves.

And su-35 is way too inferior to pakfa


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> No its not.
> 117S has claimed 4000 hours life on npo saturn website while chinese agree their engine will be about 3000 hours.
> Well if not,prove me wrong


3000 hours is for WS10A, keep it in mind.


----------



## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> You guys will pay the price if you ignored Chinese weapon system, you are not good enough to be a ANAlYST. ALL you judgment is based on wild guess from some western source, i'm sure you don't know we are capable of. You think you really smart, acutally you are not. I would not even borther to teach you a lesson, you are not gonna understand how lame IAF is compared to PLAAF.




okay... what else?


----------



## he-man

@wanglaokan 

come here when u have something better than this

NPO "SATURN" > ENGINES FOR MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND UAS

Also u can see there is already a slot on site for engine for pakfa meaning the engine is better than 117s


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> India will get everything and more as ours will have idz engine.
> Plus like mki we can integrate western stuff.
> 
> U cannot,,neither can russians themselves.
> 
> *And su-35 is way too inferior to pakfa*


J20 is there, even before you get FGFA. FGFA is still on the paper, long way to go. and delay is for sure as you always delay.


----------



## The SC

*China's J-31 Stealth Fighter: Then and Now*

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer
Posted 11.13.2014 at 9:30 am
 





J-31's Debut

The J-31 "31001" technology demonstrator flies past in a public demonstration at the Zhuhai 2014 Airshow. In addition to generating export interest, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is looking to get J-31 business from the PLAAF.
Hunter Chen
Much has been made of China’s J-31 stealth fighter making an appearance at the 2014 Zhuhai Airshow. (Too much in fact; for example_ Foreign Policy_ magazine tried to tie the news to Obama’s visit this week, despite the fact that the airshow has been going on since 1996 and the plane flying since 2012.) But what can we learn from its appearance?





J-31 Lands

The J-31 "31001" makes another approach at Zhuhai. The J-31 is still a tech demonstrator at this point, and lacks extras like electro-optical and missile launch warning sensors, as well as likely using a preexisting radar (J-10) at this point.
Flyer via Weibo
Made by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), it is highly likely that the J-31 will be China's version of the Joint Strike Fighter; its development is expected to spiral into both PLAAF and PLANAF variants. However, the J-31’s primary mission at Zhuhai has been to hunt for export customers. Beyond Chinese sales, likely customers for the J-31 include nations that have operated earlier generation Chinese export fighters like the F-7 and JF-17 (such as Pakistan and Egypt), as well as those looking for less expensive or non-U.S. alternatives.





J-31

The J-31 differs from the F-35 in that it has two engines, which in turn reduces its area ruling, making for more efficient supersonic flight, including future supercruise once the J-31 obtains more powerful engines.
Hunter Chen
Currently, "31001" is a technology demonstrator for SAC's stealth fighter technology. Hence it uses preexisting systems, like the Russian RD-93 engines found on the FC-1 fighter, as well as having an older two piece canopy over the cockpit. "31001" was stated at the Zhuhai 2012 airshow to have a combat weight of 17.6 tons; like the transition from the X-35 to the F-35, production variants of the J-31 are likely to be heavier than the demonstrator.





FC-31

This up to date scale model of the FC-31 (the J-31's export designation) at Zhuhai 2014 shows several important upgrades from "31001", including the installation of a Electro Optical Targeting Sensor (EOTS) pod under the nose (shiny gold fairing).
Blitzo at Sinodefense Forum




Stealthines

The updated FC-31 design has several radar cross section reduction measures, such as clipped wing edges, and revised vertical stabilizers, to reduce reflected radar waves.
Andreas Rupprecht via China Defense Forum
While "31001" flew crowd pleasing maneuvers at Zhuhai, a new and updated scale model of the J-31, or FC-31 in its export designation, on display shows changes that would come to any likely final plane. The new model has redesigned wings, clipped at the corners to enhance stealth, and all new vertical stabilizers, which have been enhanced for stealth. The new model also has an Infrared Search and Track sensor installed on the underside of its nose, to enable the J-31 to track the heat signatures of enemy aircraft. It also has redesigned, stealth optimized engine nozzles, which suggest that a Chinese 10- to 11-ton thrust engine will ultimately replace the Russian RD-93. Notably, such future engines could allow the J-31 to supercruise, a feature that the F-35 does not have.





New Engines

The stealthy new engine nozzles on the FC-31 model indicate that SAC looks to replace the current RD-93 turbofans. The yet unnamed turbofan engines will each generate about 10-11 tons of afterburning thrust, which could enable the J-31 to supercruise.
mil.ifeng.com




Next Gen Display

This flight simulator/cockpit avionics display shows state of the art pilot/cockpit interface technology, including a holographic Heads Up Display (HUD), a built in helmet wide display, and multi-functional display screens (not shown) that would show and fuse sensor data, managed communications, as well as firing and controlling weapons.
china.com
The J-31 is clearly intended to be a true “fifth-generation” fighter, not only in stealth but also in sensor fusion and flight avionics. To its advantage, the J-31 does not have the difficult challenge of producing a design that allows both traditional flight and a STVOL variant like the F-35B. However, the great challenges in producing a multi-role fifth-generation fighter and high-performance engines means that SAC has its work cut out if the J-31 is going to enter service in 2022, a decade after its first flight.

China's J-31 Stealth Fighter: Then and Now | Popular Science

Then:





Now:


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> 3000 hours is for WS10A, keep it in mind.



Even that is debatable.
Engine time depends on materials so is ws 10 is 3000 then ws 15 will be no different


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> J20 is there, even before you get FGFA. FGFA is still on the paper, long way to go. and delay is for sure as you always delay.



How many protos of j-20 are there??
Whats the radar?
Whats the irst?
Whats the engine?

We know nothing except that its still flying with al-31


----------



## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> okay... what else?


don be shy everytime i say PLAAF overwhelm IAF, better say something instead of 'what else'.


----------



## SQ8

ghazaliy2k said:


> The only problem with Chinese engines is heat signature and their they were strangling to keep heat signature low and now somehow they are now come up with something to keep that into satisfactory level and now working on to the level of good.



Not really. The problem with any component in which combustion takes places is heat signature. The F-16 has a higher heat signature than the JF-17. What is important is the reduction of the heat signature via thermal shielding as is done with the F-117 and F-22... That the Chinese have not done yet in the J-20 but do seem to have some wish to do so in the J-31 as it seems.

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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> don be shy everytime i say PLAAF overwhelm IAF, better say something instead of 'what else'.



Okay. 

Hello, how are you?


----------



## Khalid Newazi

What's the price of each jet?


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> How many protos of j-20 are there??
> Whats the radar?
> Whats the irst?
> Whats the engine?
> 
> We know nothing except that its still flying with rd-93


How come J20 fly with RD93? MY GOD, i think you learn something in this forum.


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## NKVD

wanglaokan said:


> J20 is there, even before you get FGFA. FGFA is still on the paper, long way to go. and delay is for sure as you always delay.


After seeing 
Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com
@wanglaokan need

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Okay.
> 
> Hello, how are you?


I'm fine, and you?


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> How come J20 fly with RD93? MY GOD, i think you learn something in this forum.



Has it gone to ws series??
Picture would be appreciated


----------



## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> I'm fine, and you?



Im fine too.


----------



## 帅的一匹

NKVD said:


> After seeing
> Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com
> @wanglaokan need
> View attachment 151312


common western article to despise Chinese weapons, i can read tons of similiar in a year.


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Has it gone to ws series??
> Picture would be appreciated


go check J20 thread in China section, time to get up to speed.


----------



## v9s

Let's not get excited folks. The j-31 is largely an unfinished jet...many subsytems haven't even been developed and you guys are anticipating its induction


----------



## SQ8

he-man said:


> How many protos of j-20 are there??
> Whats the radar?
> Whats the irst?
> Whats the engine?
> 
> We know nothing except that its still flying with al-31



The J-20 is flying with the AL-31 variant. And till 2003 when bill sweetman's book on the F-22 was published.. not much was known about the raptor as well... even though the development aircraft flew eleven years before that.

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## aliyusuf

Lets not get carried away. J-31 is in a flying demonstrator stage and not even at a prototype stage. What that means is that it is in an advanced and functional proof of concept stage. We cannot make estimates at this juncture about how long it will take to attain IOC and also to go into full serial production. 

In my humble opinion we should take this news of talks on buying 30 to 40 fighters with a pinch of salt. We should be skeptical till more information is made available.


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## 帅的一匹

The newest version of WS10 engine can generate 14tons thrust power, not far near the 117S. source:涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事

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## he-man

Oscar said:


> The J-20 is flying with the AL-31 variant. And till 2003 when bill sweetman's book on the F-22 was published.. not much was known about the raptor as well... even though the development aircraft flew eleven years before that.



I corrected in time.
But my point stands,,,,they are not too confident on ws series at the moment while india is poised to get at least 117s/117 having 142/147 kn with fadec.

Al-31 has no fadec and 1500 hours life


----------



## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> Its a well known fact,all articles are in russian,search ypurself.
> Russians already had al-41 producing 180 kn 20 years back



Give me a source give stated that AL-41 or 51 or 61 will be used in Indian 5th gen.


----------



## NKVD

Oscar said:


> The J-20 is flying with the AL-31 variant. And till 2003 when bill sweetman's book on the F-22 was published.. not much was known about the raptor as well... even though the development aircraft flew eleven years before that.


I Still Can challenge you there Its Just A tip of Ice Berg what is Known About F-22 Secrets


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> The newest version of WS10 engine can generate 14tons thrust power, not far near the 117S. source:涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事



Then why not fit it in j-20 or j-31??
It has to be properly certified,,only thrust is not enough.


----------



## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Give me a source give stated that AL-41 or 51 or 61 will be used in Indian 5th gen.



I gave u 3 sources and don't make a fool of yourself asking rhetorical questions.
Any senior pakistani member can confirm this for u


----------



## PakGuns

trident2010 said:


> Pakistan can get F-35 instead. US is its ally and F-35s are the second best after F-22 atm.


How about no ? We have had enough with US with spare and repairs of f-16s.. They also stopped the delivery of 16 of F-16s in the past.. and our front-line jet remained grounded many times. . Yani jb chaha ungli ker di .. we don't want that again .. and btw
f-35 is beyond our dreams as well. . . so, f-31 with PAF modifications .. best for beast

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> go check J20 thread in China section, time to get up to speed.



Its al-31 and before oscar could quote rd-93,,i was quick to correct


----------



## 帅的一匹

Oscar said:


> The J-20 is flying with the AL-31 variant. And till 2003 when bill sweetman's book on the F-22 was published.. not much was known about the raptor as well... even though the development aircraft flew eleven years before that.


Chinese Aviation Research 606 Institute staff in Zhuhai airshow said the Threst power of the latest ws10 engine had reached 140KN, with life span of 1500 hours. This is the most reliable source i've ever get until now.


----------



## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> And to ignorant members stop wasting everyone's time.Once u are on a defence forum behave.
> 
> @pakistanipower
> 
> T-50
> Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) - 5th Generation Multi-Role Stealth Aircraft - Page 2 of 2
> The testing of a new engine intended for PAK FA will be started in 2014 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM
> 
> Now don't cry



Even this link stated that 174kn after burn, where is 180kn engine?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Oscar said:


> The J-20 is flying with the AL-31 variant. And till 2003 when bill sweetman's book on the F-22 was published.. not much was known about the raptor as well... even though the development aircraft flew eleven years before that.


acually WS10G with 140KN thrust power, this has been confirmed by offical staff in the zhuhai airshow.


----------



## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Even this link stated that 174kn after burn, where is 180kn engine?



Are u so hell bent on ignorance??
u want to nitpick 174,176 and 180 now?


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## NKVD

wanglaokan said:


> The newest version of WS10 engine can generate 14tons thrust power, not far near the 117S. source:涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事


My friend what you Posted is taking References from newspaper Articles What @he-man Posted Was Direct from Source Site of NPO.


----------



## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> Rd 93 will remain shit,use whatever version u want.
> It just cannot power a 5 gen properly with 100 kn thrust estimate for newer variant.
> 
> Mki will be upgraded to su-35 enfine,117s producing 142 kn ,,indian pakfa will have 180 kn class engine



Don't just troll mate this shit (RD33 variant of RD93) is using in your famous SU30


----------



## 帅的一匹

NKVD said:


> My friend what you Posted is taking References from newspaper Articles What @he-man Posted Was Direct from Source Site of NPO.


We Chinese have our own way to insinuate the critical information, you shall believe it. All we are lack of is the TVC.

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## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Don't just troll mate this shit (RD33 variant of RD93) is using in your famous SU30



No,,,su-30 uses shitty al-31f and mig-29 uses shitty rd-33mk2.
Both are not good,i already know that.

Point is mki will be upgraded and pakfa will have idz30


----------



## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> Are u so hell bent on ignorance??
> u want to nitpick 174,176 and 180 now?



If you can't honor your own words and proof its right. Then we better thing you as a troll factory and nothing else and we will ignore you from now on


----------



## nair

@Oscar I know you are busy, but this guy need immediate attention....


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> We Chinese have our own way to insinuate the critical information, you shall believe it. All we are lack of is the TVC.



With 1500 hours life u are way behind even russians

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## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> If you can't honor your own words and proof its right. Then we better thing you as a troll factory and nothing else and we will ignore you from now on



Now u have something to contribute??
If not,please move on


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## 帅的一匹

WS10 series are getting matured, J10 B will mount WS10 newly type in the near future. in other word, J10B is ready for export. Salute to the hardworking Chinese engineers, they create a miracle.


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## NKVD

ghazaliy2k said:


> Don't just troll mate this shit (RD33 variant of RD93) is using in your famous SU30


Thats 4.5 gen fighter are you comparing it with j-31Now .Well its being upgraded to 117S in Super-30 upgrade which 142 kn

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## DESERT FIGHTER

razgriz19 said:


> Stop dreaming people. I can guarantee you J-31 won't see service with PAF until the F-16 starts retiring.
> That's not going to happen till 2025 at the very least.


Do you think PAF will retire 52+s in 25?? You are sadly mistaken ..... As for FC-31 they will probably be arriving after 2018...

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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> With 1500 hours life u are way behind even russians


1500 is for WS10A, the newest version is near 3000 hours with 140KN thrust power. You will see it in J10B in the future. I'm fully confident of my country without any doubt, they are building a turbo jet engine with thrust to weight ratio of 8 from scratch, and now they will develop WS15 with ratio 10. Good bless my country.

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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> With 1500 hours life u are way behind even russians


1500 hours is more than enough during war.


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> 1500 hours is more than enough during war.



Never said its bad.
Its pretty good but please don't claim u have overtaken russia.

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## 帅的一匹

NKVD said:


> Thats 4.5 gen fighter are you comparing it with j-31Now .Well its being upgraded to 117S in Super-30 upgrade which 142 kn


i think SU30MKI with 117S is far superior than Rafale, why you guys insist on buying Rafale at nearly 1.5 times price of Super sukhoi?


----------



## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Never said its bad.
> Its pretty good but please don't claim u have overtaken russia.


It doesn't matter whether we surpass Russia at the moment, all we care is we have our own fine engine. No country in this planet is gonna able to black mail China with engine any more. You agree with on that?


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> i think SU30MKI with 117S is far superior than Rafale, why you guys insist on buying Rafale at nearly 1.5 times price of Super sukhoi?



Because its not superior in anything except more range due to more internal fuel


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## NKVD

wanglaokan said:


> i think SU30MKI with 117S is far superior than Rafale, why you guys insist on buying Rafale at nearly 1.5 times price of Super sukhoi?


Because of the low RCS and Package it comes up with meteor,spectra Etc And we have to make number UP of our Squadrons.But its off topic


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> It doesn't matter whether we surpass Russia at the moment, all we care is we have our own fine engine. No country in this planet is gonna able to black mail China will engine any more. You agree with on that?



Yes i agree its a great achievement

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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> i think SU30MKI with 117S is far superior than Rafale, why you guys insist on buying Rafale at nearly 1.5 times price of Super sukhoi?




We are buying both.

Reason is best of both worlds and Rafale being a Medium fighter.

And yes both are nothing infront of J-10 and J31, J-30 etc etc.

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> We are buying both.
> 
> Reason is best of both worlds and Rafale being a Medium fighter.
> 
> And yes both are nothing infront of J-10 and J31, J-30 etc etc.


No, i don't think J10a could overrun SUPER mki. I'm not a lier. J20 yes.


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## 帅的一匹

NKVD said:


> Because of the low RCS and Package it comes up with meteor,spectra Etc And we have to make number UP of our Squadrons.But its off topic


Why you guys not try to integrate France avionics and weapons on super MKI?


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> No, i don't think J10a could overrun SUPER mki. I'm not a lier. J20 yes.



You are mistaken. Please visit J10a sticky thread for more details.

J-10a even with present specs can overrun rafale or Mki...


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## 帅的一匹

It make the maintenance and logistics more easier to run.


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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> You are mistaken. Please visit J10a sticky thread for more details.
> 
> J-10a even with present specs can overrun rafale or Mki...


Don' take those emotional as serious, you believe that?


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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Airshow China 2014: AVIC unveils FC-31 export fighter concept*
*Kelvin Wong, Singapore* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
12 November 2014

The FC-31 next-generation export stealth fighter concept was revealed for the first time at Airshow China 2014. (IHS/Kelvin Wong)

State-owned aircraft research and development firm Shenyang Aviation Company (SAC) showcased its FC-31 twin-engined, medium multirole stealth fighter design at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai.

SAC, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), calls the FC-31 a "4th-Generation Multipurpose Medium Fighter". The new concept is based predominantly - if not entirely - on its ongoing J-31 Falcon Eagle development programme.

However, the 1:2 scale representation displayed at AVIC's pavilion features a number of visible changes to the J-31 prototype (aircraft number 31001) seen flying in the past two years, which is also performing flight demonstrations at this year's show.

An electro-optical and sensor system (EOSS) turret on the underside of the nosecone makes an appearance for the first time in the Falcon Eagle's development history, indicating that the production aircraft could feature enhanced air-to-ground strike capabilities. IHS Jane's All The World's Aircraft lists its large twin internal payload bay as spanning a third of the overall length of the aircraft and capable of carrying an estimated payload of 2,268 kg (5,000 lb). It is also not known if the FC-31 is equipped with external stores carrying capability.

The airframe and control surfaces of the two aircraft are similar, comprising the low aspect ratio design and chined fuselage, with forward-swept engine intakes, 35° sweptback trapezoidal planform wings, and similarly-shaped tailplanes. However, the outward-canted twin vertical fins and rudders have now been updated, terminating in tips that are diametrically angled compared with the current design's flushed tips.

AVIC officials at Airshow China 2014 would not comment on the J-31 and FC-31's development, nor detail the aircrafts' respective performance specifications, except to reiterate that the FC-31 is intended for the international export market, with "a number of countries expressing an interest in the aircraft".

Additionally, the company showcased a full-scale cockpit demonstrator of an unknown aircraft type directly next to the FC-31 display. AVIC officials would not discuss if this demonstrator is an accurate representation of the actual cockpit design, although they did reveal that the system is capable of simultaneously displaying the full range of mission-critical data, including aircraft telemetry, attitude director indicator (ADI), friend-or-foe (FOF) target indication, and weapons systems readiness states to the pilot on a large, touch-capable multifunction monitor measuring at least 20 x 8 inches.

Interestingly, the cockpit demonstrator also included a nose-mounted electro-optical infrared (EO/IR) sensor pod just slightly forward of the canopy bubble on the starboard section of the nose - a feature absent on the FC-31 scale model - which was directly interfaced to the main monitor.

AVIC officials also claimed that the pilot will be equipped with an advanced flight helmet that IHS Jane's understands will perform on a level comparable to western Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS). The helmet, which is still under development, will be capable of displaying "multiple streams of data" for enhanced situational awareness and as well as functioning as an off-boresight missile cueing system with "improved accuracy" over existing systems in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) latest multirole fighters.

*COMMENT*
SAC's FC-31 multirole fighter concept is China's most ambitious export fighter programme yet, under which it is seeking to develop a relatively low cost multirole platform with an emphasis on strike capabilities and incorporating some degree of stealth - although the latter's actual radar evading effectiveness is unknown.
The design evidently stands a reasonable chance of entering production (provided that a customer is found) given that a prototype, the J-31, has already been successfully flown for a number of years and has now been demonstrated to the international public.

However, like with other advanced aircraft developments in China, the J-31/FC-31 programme is hamstrung by the need to import most of its high-performance jet engines from Russian suppliers. The country has expressed interest in a number of systems from Russia, including the Saturn/Lyulka 117S engine that powers the latest Sukhoi Su-35 as well as the PAK-FA/T-50 next-generation aircraft programme. Russian officials remain suspicious over any engine deals with China as a potential competitor in the international combat aircraft market, fearing reverse-engineering of its systems after co-produced Su-27SKs (also known as the Shenyang J-11 in China) were manufactured by SAC without licence.

Likewise, the J-31 prototype is currently powered by two Klimov RD-93 engines - each rated at 8.5 tonnes of thrust - that also power the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Group's (CAC's) FC-1 Thunder Dragon, which was exported to Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder. However, the current state of advanced Chinese aircraft engines remains shrouded in uncertainty. Local media carry often-repeated, but unsubstantiated, reports that Chinese aerospace industries have "made great strides" with aero-engine research and that indigenously developed high performance systems will be entering the market "in the near future".

China's track record in exporting combat aircraft is at best modest, with only the Chengdu J-7 (a licence-built MiG-21), HAIC K-8 Karakoram trainer/light attack fighter, and the FC-1/JF-17. As a result, it remains to be seen whether the low cost stealth premise of the J-31/FC-31 platform can attract any international interest, although it may draw the attention of countries unable to afford, or access, western fourth and fifth generation aircraft.

At the very least, it is the definitive crowd pleaser at Airshow China 2014.

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## 帅的一匹

MKI is the high end fighter in IAF, we have to deploy J10B and J20 against it. Never underestimate your rival's strength.


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## he-man

SpArK said:


> We are buying both.
> 
> Reason is best of both worlds and Rafale being a Medium fighter.
> 
> And yes both are nothing infront of J-10 and J31, J-30 etc etc.



Rafale has superior electronics with similar payload capacity,additional aesa radar vs pesa for mki and having far lower rcs.
Not to mention spectra and much better sensor fusion.

M-88 engine has 6000 hours life compared to al-31 with 1500 hours and lacking fadec


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## My-Analogous

he-man said:


> Now u have something to contribute??
> If not,please move on



Yes my contribution will be that you change your name to troll.


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## 帅的一匹

What i'm insterested is what happen when MKI face J10B, hope the anwser will never be revealed.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> MKI is the high end fighter in IAF, we have to deploy J10B and J20 against it. Never underestimate your rival's strength.



Yes especially after it gets aesa,,most probably pakfa's which has 1500t/r elements


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## he-man

ghazaliy2k said:


> Yes my contribution will be that you change your name to troll.



Anyone who knows about these fighters will understand who is trolling


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## 帅的一匹

What i'm insterested is what happen when MKI face J10B, hope the anwser will never be revealed.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> What i'm insterested is what happen when MKI face J10B, hope the anwser will never be revealed.



Depends.
Mki will most probably be upgraded with su-35 or pakfa electronics in future.

But we will get rafale too...........now what??


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Depends.
> Mki will most probably be upgraded with su-35 or pakfa electronics in future.
> 
> But we will get rafale too...........now what??


We will discuss further after you sign the Rafale contract.


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## 帅的一匹

China's engine industry is matrured, all we gonna do is keep developing better one. We had start to study VCE engine, hope it will be a sucess.


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## SpArK

he-man said:


> Rafale has superior electronics with similar payload capacity,additional aesa radar vs pesa for mki and having far lower rcs.
> Not to mention spectra and much better sensor fusion.
> 
> M-88 engine has 6000 hours life compared to al-31 with 1500 hours and lacking fadec




Oii.. dude..bhai... sirjiii.... I know it.... My quotes and comments are not for general public. 

Its for my beloved friend @wanglaokan only.

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## NKVD

wanglaokan said:


> Why you guys not try to integrate France avionics and weapons on super MKI?


Rfi for Meteor BVR is issued before As far .We also going for indigenous Platforms well RWR tarang mk2 was success in MKI plus Astra We also use Israeli targeting pods for Mki Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s .Maybe it will get upgraded in future


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> Don' take those emotional as serious, you believe that?



Yes i believe that.


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## 帅的一匹

The core engine of WS15 with TW ratio 10 had started to undergo ground test since year 2012, i think it will mature before year 2018.


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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Yes i believe that.


You better quit it, or the title of Analyst will be cancelled soon.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> The core engine of WS15 with TW ratio 10 had started to undergo ground test since year 2012, i think it will mature before year 2018.


We will talk then


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> We will talk then


just FYI, so you won't get caught off guard when WS15 pops out of nowhere when it make public.


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## 帅的一匹

@he-man, we will talk about it later.


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> You better quit it, or the title of Analyst will be cancelled soon.



One of the main characteristics of an analyst is to learn things they dont know. 

Im doing it.

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> @he-man, we will talk about it later.



sure anytime
Just got my vsonic vc02 earphones from china

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## Zarvan

Hyperion said:


> Imagine the Chinese coming up with a supercruise engine in the near future -- don't you think they are capable of doing it? If it were to happen, then many here would get a heart-attack!
> 
> China is on the right path...... they haven't waited for all the technologies to mature and are testing various powerplants and technologies...... things will mature and in the mean time they will accumulate data that you, I and others could only wish for.
> 
> Now look at it from a neutral PoV........ in their J31 and J20 projects, they have almost EVERYTHING sorted out, other than the engines......... how long before they have that sorted out too? I feel it won't be that long!


They have already completed WS-10 and they are working on WS-13 they would soon come up with that too as for Indians let them live in dreams each dream of Indians will shatter


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## narcon

he-man said:


> M-88 engine has *6000 hours* life compared to al-31 with 1500 hours and lacking fadec



Where did we get this figure from?


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## narcon

he-man said:


> don't remember,,have to dig up again.



Actual numbers are 4K
But 6K is the norm suggested by engine makers to be a standard.


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## Ultima Thule

he-man said:


> Great technical answer like i expected from u.


give me source that india is in the development stages with russia to develop 180 kn class engine and as for WS 15 we dont have any technical data so why you r assuming that it is inferior to 117S, let wait and see


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> *Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'*
> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
> 12 November 2014
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> "The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.
> 
> The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.
> 
> In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told _IHS Jane's_ that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> (134 of 373 words)
> 
> @TheOccupiedKashmir @fatman17 Can you get full access to article ?



Stomach bug hits India.

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## Donatello

@Oscar @Jungibaaz @WebMaster @Horus @Chak Bamu @Manticore 

Guys,

Seriously, why are Indian members allowed to post here? It's not like they can add anything technical to discussion to the topic at hand. All the information is available to us as it comes, and it is naturally a topic for Pakistanis and Chinese only.

Please thread ban all Indians. They are contributing nothing of value.

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## Donatello

he-man said:


> The discussion was going on about engines.Whats offtopic here?



The fact what India operates and what it will operate in dreams.


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## Donatello

The thread should at max be 10 pages long. But wallah, thanks to the retards from across the LOC, we will have another thread part 2 soon. India this India that. F***in Bullshyt.

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## narcon

The SC said:


> While I consider a 100 of these jets to constitute a good detterent, what is your take on this?



In 2020 100 pcs of such fighters will cost Pakistan how much?

I do not think China will donate them. 

As for the Chinese investment in Pakistan last year, being an all weather friend, was very dismal = Measly 90 million only.
Whereas China spent 100 Billion overseas.

Under such scenario, Pakistan will have tough time coughing up any such (probable) hefty amount.


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## Donatello

siegecrossbow said:


> I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17.


what are specs on the AESA for J-31.....and any IRST system?


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## The SC

narcon said:


> In 2020 100 pcs of such fighters will cost Pakistan how much?
> 
> I do not think China will donate them.
> 
> As for the Chinese investment in Pakistan last year, being an all weather friend, was very dismal = Measly 90 million only.
> Whereas China spent 100 Billion overseas.
> 
> Under such scenario, Pakistan will have tough time coughing up any such (probable) hefty amount.


Chinese investment in Pakistan most recent news is about $50 billion.
100 FC-31s from 2018 to 2025 will cost around $5 billion, maybe a bit more, let us say that Pakistan starts saving $500 million a year from now to 2025, that will make it $5 billion by that time or end of production., this is well in the capacities of Pakistan, the economic growth rate is around 4% now, and with a better economy, $5 or $6 billion budget spread on a10 year period will be even easier than now.


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## SQ8

*Any other posts discussing equipment unrelated to the J-31 will be considered off topic and liable for warnings............*

*or worse*

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## My-Analogous

@Manticore

Guys,

Seriously, why are Indian members allowed to post here? It's not like they can add anything technical to discussion to the topic at hand. All the information is available to us as it comes, and it is naturally a topic for Pakistanis and Chinese only.

Please thread ban all Indians. They are contributing nothing of value.[/QUOTE]

"I am 2nd to you and only think they are doing that we have Super Duper masters and highly intelligent and what we are working on its junks."


----------



## NKVD

The SC said:


> Chinese investment in Pakistan most recent news is about $50 billion.
> 100 FC-31s from 2018 to 2025 will cost around $5 billion, maybe a bit more, let us say that Pakistan starts saving $500 million a year from now to 2025, that will make it $5 billion by that time or end of production., this is well in the capacities of Pakistan, the economic growth rate is around 4% now, and with a better economy, $5 or $6 billion budget spread on a10 year period will be even easier than now.


Civilian invest is different from Military . if We assume fC-31 cost around 80 billion Excluding flying cost per piece just multiply 80x100= 8 billion $ As of now whole operating Budget of PAF is 3 billion $ so you will do what Retire all Rest of the Fleet.


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## narcon

The SC said:


> *Chinese investment in Pakistan most recent news is about $50 billion.*
> 100 FC-31s from 2018 to 2025 will cost around $5 billion, maybe a bit more, let us say that Pakistan starts saving $500 million a year from now to 2025, that will make it $5 billion by that time or end of production., this is well in the capacities of Pakistan, the economic growth rate is around 4% now, and with a better economy, $5 or $6 billion budget spread on a10 year period will be even easier than now.



Last year the news was similar, but what materialized is worth noting, and that was meager 90 million.
Why do you think all of a sudden this year China will be extra kind to Pakistan and walk an extra mile for her?
For Pakistan to save 500 million a year and not provide electricity to its Awam is criminal act.
Come with better and rational response.


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## My-Analogous

So 

When we will have this ? any idea.


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## NKVD

ghazaliy2k said:


> So
> 
> When we will have this ? any idea.


PAF will have this Not before 2025 after retiring f-16 Same goes for FGFA too


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## My-Analogous

NKVD said:


> Civilian invest is different from Military . if We assume fC-31 cost around 80 billion Excluding flying cost per piece just multiply 80x100= 8 billion $ As of now whole operating Budget of PAF is 3 billion $ so you will do what Retire all Rest of the Fleet.



in 2006 we purchase F16 worth 5.5B US$, so we can easily go upto 10B by 2018-19 after finishing our 150 JF17


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## Stealth

*Got Information/Confirmation from the Air force source that Pakistan Airforce capable and has enough FUNDS to buy and maintain FC-31 and discussion officially on ground (in real) :S*

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## My-Analogous

NKVD said:


> PAF will have this Not before 2025 after retiring f-16 Same goes for FGFA too



I thing J31 will be mature within 5 years b/c Chinese technology they test in multiply platforms so Pakistan may have these birds in 2021 or 2022


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## The SC

narcon said:


> Last year the news was similar, but what materialized is worth noting, and that was meager 90 million.
> Why do you think all of a sudden this year China will be extra kind to Pakistan and walk an extra mile for her?
> For Pakistan to save 500 million a year and not provide electricity to its Awam is criminal act.
> Come with better and rational response.


We are talking about different budgets, do not mix up things, rationality is something you have to define in your own mind before posting., there is a What ever thread...if you want to post what ever stuff.
The latest news is that China has signed an around $50 billion investment deal with Pakistan. You can Google it either you like it or not, it is there.

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## The SC

NKVD said:


> Civilian invest is different from Military . if We assume fC-31 cost around 80 billion Excluding flying cost per piece just multiply 80x100= 8 billion $ As of now whole operating Budget of PAF is 3 billion $ so you will do what Retire all Rest of the Fleet.


That is $80 Million not billion.
It won't cost that much when produced in Pakistan, maybe around $50 million a piece, for the first 2 blocks, after that it might go up to 60, 70 or 80 million a piece depending on the the top of the line Avionics, sensors, radars and engines that will be available after 2025.


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## NKVD

ghazaliy2k said:


> in 2006 we purchase F16 worth 5.5B US$, so we can easily go upto 10B by 2018-19 after finishing our 150 JF17


Source


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## AsianLion

Pakistani J-31 Stealth with manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan, to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and which has so much similarity with its own JF17s Thunder Programme.

AL-31 is not a reliable engine, as J10 had engine issues with it, and so Pakistan will not have Fc20. 

WS-13A or RD-93M should be on the second prototype of Shenyang J-31 jet.


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## NKVD

The SC said:


> That is $80 Million not billion.
> It won't cost that much when produced in Pakistan, maybe around $50 million a piece, for the first 2 blocks, after that it might go up to 60, 70 or 80 million a piece depending on the the top of the line Avionics, sensors, radars and engines that will be available after 2025.


my mistake!! But be Realistic you really think Chinese Industry is so Mature that it Pecked down prices of fifth gen fighter to 50 million when there j-15 is cost them more than 55-60 million A Piece Really. well Even west with So Mature Aviation Industry Couldn't achieve this.And manufacturing j-31 in PAC its your industry is capable to achieve that much of complicated TOT.

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## Lil Mathew

ghazaliy2k said:


> in 2006 we purchase F16 worth 5.5B US$, so we can easily go upto 10B by 2018-19 after finishing our 150 JF17


What?? Pakistan spend 5.5 Billion in 2006???? Then where are those f16s??


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## NKVD

AsianUnion said:


> Pakistani J-31 Stealth with manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan, to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and which has so much similarity with its own JF17s Thunder Programme.
> 
> AL-31 is not a reliable engine, as J10 had engine issues with it, and so Pakistan will not have Fc20.
> 
> WS-13A or RD-93M should be on the second prototype of Shenyang J-31 jet.


rd-93dm is even inferior too Engine used in Mki AL-31FP Really


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## Mugwop

J-31 is great but I would have picked J-10B because of single engines and cost.


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## Arsalan

Mugwop said:


> J-31 is great but I would have picked J-10B because of single engines and cost.


While J10B is a 4.5 generation aircraft the J31 is designated fifth generation with advance stealth features.

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## sathya

Pak can build j 10b but j 31 can only be bought off the self..


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## 帅的一匹

FC31 will receive orders from PAF that's for sure. BAF is somehow interested in J10,I think we will sell them if they ask. @BDforever Pakistan will always be the first user of Chinese top notch weapon system, simply because it's China's Israel. no one could replace Pakistan's position in The heart of all Chinese. they are always our sincere friend since our tough time, it's time to collect payback for Pakistan.

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## 帅的一匹

FC31 will receive orders from PAF that's for sure. BAF is somehow interested in J10,I think we will sell them if they ask. @BDforever Pakistan will always be the first user of Chinese top notch weapon system, simply because it's China's Israel. no one could replace Pakistan's position in The heart of all Chinese. they are always our sincere friend since our tough time, it's time to collect payback for Pakistan.

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## 帅的一匹

we shall give PAF more discount in FC31, or I will protest Xi if he is not doing that.

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## 帅的一匹

both Pakistani and Chinese are sensational people, we born to support each other. money always comes second when it comes to brothers.

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## Donatello

NKVD said:


> Civilian invest is different from Military . if We assume fC-31 cost around 80 billion Excluding flying cost per piece just multiply 80x100= 8 billion $ As of now whole operating Budget of PAF is 3 billion $ so you will do what Retire all Rest of the Fleet.


Typical type of Indian response, where the poster has no clue what he is talking about.


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> *Got Information/Confirmation from the Air force source that Pakistan Airforce capable and has enough FUNDS to buy and maintain FC-31 and discussion officially on ground (in real) :S*


Than by 2022 if everything goes to according to plan we should for 3 sqaudrons with 18 jets in each sqaudron


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## NKVD

Donatello said:


> Typical type of Indian response, where the poster has no clue what he is talking about.


Replying to him that he to Exaggerated In Fact he Was Delusional. I Simply Asked him the Fact PAF with Limited Budget of 3 billion Want to operate 100 fc-31 which cost btw 8-10 billion dollars withing A span of 5-6 years.


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## Donatello

NKVD said:


> Replying to him that he to Exaggerated In Fact he Was Delusional. I Simply Asked him the Fact PAF with Limited Budget of 3 billion Want to operate 100 fc-31 which cost btw 8-10 billion dollars withing A span of 5-6 years.


I'll just say again, you have no clue what you are talking about. and i am not going to dwell into and entertain off topic posts.

Answer this:

When IAF's budget is XX, yet it wants 20 billion USD Rafale tender, how does it expect to fund the planes and maintain them, along with MKIs, MIGs and Mirage?

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## Ultima Thule

Donatello said:


> I'll just say again, you have no clue what you are talking about. and i am not going to dwell into and entertain off topic posts.
> 
> Answer this:
> 
> When IAF's budget is XX, yet it wants 20 billion USD Rafale tender, how does it expect to fund the planes and maintain them, along with MKIs, MIGs and Mirage?


yes that is the point bro


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## NKVD

Donatello said:


> I'll just say again, you have no clue what you are talking about. and i am not going to dwell into and entertain off topic posts.
> 
> Answer this:
> 
> When IAF's budget is XX, yet it wants 20 billion USD Rafale tender, how does it expect to fund the planes and maintain them, along with MKIs, MIGs and Mirage?


It was my answer too!! I never denied that paf operate FC-31 but it will take a decade too its high operating cost and budget.it will too in limited numbers.india already planned to invest 200 billion in defense in next 10-15 years funds are not problem but for Paf it has.


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## monitor

now the reason understood why Pakistan cancel the initial plan to buy J-10B. Pakistan as the closest ally may have got the inside information that a more advance option is going to available soon and the JF-17 were showing more prospect then expected so it was decided to discard J-10B in favor of JF-17 and use that fund to upgrade it and wait for a fifth generation fighter . long live China Pakistan friendship

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## SQ8

NKVD said:


> It was my answer too!! I never denied that paf operate FC-31 but it will take a decade too its high operating cost and budget.it will too in limited numbers.india already planned to invest 200 billion in defense in next 10-15 years funds are not problem but for Paf it has.



I dont disagree with you. The cost of operating the J-31 will be high, but I would not expect it to be astronomical as it might be if India purchases the F-35 or FGFA. The reason for that again comes down to commonality of procedure in maintenance and logistics along with the procurement costs.

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## Lil Mathew

Donatello said:


> I'll just say again, you have no clue what you are talking about. and i am not going to dwell into and entertain off topic posts.
> 
> Answer this:
> 
> When IAF's budget is XX, yet it wants 20 billion USD Rafale tender, how does it expect to fund the planes and maintain them, along with MKIs, MIGs and Mirage?


A big country with a high defence budget have many times capital budget that in really seems..
For example.. Take PAF and IAF.. 
PAF budget is ~1.5 billion and IAF budget is 10 billion.. Only 6 times bigger... But take a look at capital budget.. This year IAF capital budget is ~6 billion.. That is revenue budget for maintaining present fleets is ~4 billion.. For maintain a minimum std PAF's old and big fleet also needs somewhat ~1.2 billion.. So capital budget is ~300 million..
That is IAF capital budget is 6 billion against PAF's 300 million.. So IAF's capital budget is *20 times* bigger than PAF's..


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## NKVD

Oscar said:


> I dont disagree with you. The cost of operating the J-31 will be high, but I would not expect it to be astronomical as it might be if India purchases the F-35 or FGFA. The reason for that again comes down to commonality of procedure in maintenance and logistics along with the procurement costs.


yeah it is 70-80 million is the optimistic figure i gave it to you.Even with FGFA i will bet any one about its value of 30 billion will be pecked up to 50 billion by the time it will be come-out it will be around 140-150 million $ we know Russians well

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## AsianLion

How many J-31s are we buying? How many will be produced inside Pakistan ? When will we see first squadron of PAF customized variant in Pakistan?

Any news of Prototype II and III of J-31, when it will come out.


This is a great, really beautiful Fifth Generation Fighter Jet paf is buying.

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## siegecrossbow

Donatello said:


> what are specs on the AESA for J-31.....and any IRST system?



I don't know about the first one. AESA system specs are probably under wraps right now. As for IRST system, future variants will field a similar system to the EODAS used on J-20 2011/2012 judging by the static mockup on display at Zhuhai.

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## Donatello

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't know about the first one. AESA system specs are probably under wraps right now. As for IRST system, future variants will field a similar system to the EODAS used on J-20 2011/2012 judging by the static mockup on display at Zhuhai.



Hmm, interesting. So we don't know yet which radar J-31 is flying with? I believe it would be similar to J-20's, except that since J-20 is more of a fighter bomber than a fighter, radar modes might differ a bit.


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## My-Analogous

Lil Mathew said:


> What?? Pakistan spend 5.5 Billion in 2006???? Then where are those f16s??



A very old news and now get back to topic please

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

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## Mugwop

Arsalan said:


> While J10B is a 4.5 generation aircraft the J31 is designated fifth generation with advance stealth features.


I agree! The size is perfect for PAF but we would have to save up alot of money and wait till 2019 to get J-31.

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## Last Samuri

There will be absolutely no need for paf to induct the j31,before 2020.

The current fleet is enough deterrence to prevent a iaf from venturing to far accross loc.

I don't see rafale coming until 2020 in meaningful nos ie fifty plus.

Indian Fgfa is decade away and may not happen.

In which case wat will paf do with a such s expensive and senstive fighter like j31,


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## Last Samuri

I would continue to take some of the hi end technology incorporated in both the j10 programmes and the j20/j31 programmes. Ie radars weapons avionics ew suites etc and utilise in a new version of thunder in mk3.

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## Syed Hussain

Donatello said:


> Civilian invest is different from Military . if We assume fC-31 cost around 80 billion Excluding flying cost per piece just multiply 80x100= 8 billion $ As of now whole operating Budget of PAF is 3 billion $ so you will do what Retire all Rest of the Fleet.


That's why the 3D printing has been brought for in J-31 project...I will cost max around 6 mill per unit.
Budget is indeed a problem for PAF but when it comes for doing something then same Pakistan completed it's nuclear program(which by West is believed to be many folds advanced than that of indian) & you are well aware for the costs associated with it.


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## Sanchez

Last Samuri said:


> I would continue to take some of the hi end technology incorporated in both the j10 programmes and the j20/j31 programmes. Ie radars weapons avionics ew suites etc and utilise in a new version of thunder in mk3.



Or try to reduce the weight of JF-17 by using more composite materials.


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## MastanKhan

Last Samuri said:


> There will be absolutely no need for paf to induct the j31,before 2020.
> 
> In which case wat will paf do with a such s expensive and senstive fighter like j31,



Sir,

Make peace-----what else.


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## In arduis fidelis

In the Zhuhai airshow stall its is shown as a 4th gen aircraft but everyone here is calling it a 5 th gen whats up with that?


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## rockstar08

well guys i have a off topic question , that why peoples seems to ignore the fact block 3 Jf-17 can be a potent fighter , and right now we need to focus on JF and try to procure more f-16's and mlued them...where block 3 will stand in comparison to J-10s or f-16's ???

on topic , as most of senior members suggest that we should wait and save money till 2018-2020 and than get 3-4 sqs of J-31 , or may be upgrade them according to our needs ...but it is yet to disclose that which Radar j-31 will be using ,and RCS , IRST etc...


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## rockstar08

Rafay Jamil said:


> In the Zhuhai airshow stall its is shown as a 4th gen aircraft but everyone here is calling it a 5 th gen whats up with that?



4th gen according to China Standards , i think ....
@ChineseTiger1986

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## Donatello

Syed Hussain said:


> That's why the 3D printing has been brought for in J-31 project...I will cost max around 6 mill per unit.
> Budget is indeed a problem for PAF but when it comes for doing something then same Pakistan completed it's nuclear program(which by West is believed to be many folds advanced than that of indian) & you are well aware for the costs associated with it.



Hi,

The money for Pakistan's nuclear program came from Libya-Gadafi. (Hence the Gadafi stadium in Lahore, even though libyans got no clue about cricket). In 1980s it came from Saudi.

PIA flights were used to carry 100million USD IN CASH on their Karachi-Tripoli-Cario-Rome-Karachi flights in 1970s. Tell me how much is 100 million USD in 1970s worth today?
Later Saudis pumped in money as well.

We don't have that luxury with J-31. It will probably come from Pakistan's account and Chinese Eximp bank.

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## AsianLion

Rafay Jamil said:


> In the Zhuhai airshow stall its is shown as a 4th gen aircraft but everyone here is calling it a 5 th gen whats up with that?




Yes China always gives a Generation less, Like 4th Chinese Generation = 5th Western Generation. 

However Pakistan keeps the western generation as a common name to give to its generation classification.

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## In arduis fidelis

AsianUnion said:


> Yes China always gives a Generation less, Like 4th Chinese Generation = 5th Western Generation.
> 
> However Pakistan keeps the western generation as a common name to give to its generation classification.


Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Hurter

AsianUnion said:


> It is so exciting news.
> 
> Any news of Prototype II development of J-31, when it will come out.
> 
> PAF will get 30 jets in 2020, best induction time to rule over skies.
> 
> Awesome J-31 Stealth Fighter :



Its 40 I guess.. But its a wonderful news. Can't wait


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## sathya

Yo buy it quickly ... 

It's possible for us to skip MMRCA only if you do it before we sign it..


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## Hurter

wanglaokan said:


> we shall give PAF more discount in FC31, or I will protest Xi if he is not doing that.



Any idea of starting price of J-31? What about the variants?


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## AsianLion

sathya said:


> Yo buy it quickly ...
> 
> It's possible for us to skip MMRCA only if you do it before we sign it..




MMRCA of over 14 years is effectively finished with French...India is an underdog now..Indian negotiations of Rafale are effectively destroyed, this is what Franch got from refusing to sell JF17 avionics.


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## Muhammad Omar

are we getting v1 or v 2??


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## Ultima Thule

Donatello said:


> Hmm, interesting. So we don't know yet which radar J-31 is flying with? I believe it would be similar to J-20's, except that since J-20 is more of a fighter bomber than a fighter, radar modes might differ a bit.


its in a testing phase, it may have pulse dropler radar, PEASA or AESA who knows, who tell you that J-20 is fighter bomber? it more like air defense fighter with a secondary role of air to ground


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## Lil Mathew

ghazaliy2k said:


> A very old news and now get back to topic please
> 
> Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s


Leaked cables are out.. We know almost everything about f 16 deal now..
80337: F-16 LOA signed at last
*MG Tariq Salim Malik, Additional Secretary of Ministry of Defense Production (MODP), signed the Letter of Acceptance (LOA) to purchase 18 F-16s Saturday evening, September 30.*
80337 10/2/2006 10:31:00 AM 06ISLAMABAD19208 Embassy Islamabad CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN 06ISLAMABAD17768 | 06ISLAMABAD17992 VZCZCXRO6356PP RUEHLH RUEHPWDE RUEHIL #9208/01 2751031ZNY CCCCC ZZHP 021031Z OCT 06FM AMEMBASSY ISLAMABADTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 1582INFO RUEHNE/AMEMBASSY NEW DELHI PRIORITY 9402RUEHKP/AMCONSUL KARACHI PRIORITY 2947RUEHLH/AMCONSUL LAHORE PRIORITY 0249RUEHPW/AMCONSUL PESHAWAR PRIORITY 8304RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC PRIORITYRHEHNSC/NSC WASHDC PRIORITY C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 ISLAMABAD 019208 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/05/2016 TAGS: MASS, MCAP, PK, PREL

SUBJECT: F-16 LOA SIGNED AT LAST.

REF: A.) ISLAMABAD 017768 B.) ISLAMABAD 017992

Classified By: Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker, Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d)

1. (C) MG Tariq Salim Malik, Additional Secretary of Ministry of Defense Production (MODP), signed the Letter of Acceptance (LOA) to purchase 18 F-16s Saturday evening, September 30. Following the private signing ceremony, MODP presented to Office of Defense Representative Pakistan a side memo, the text of which is printed in paragraph 3.



2. (C) Comment: We consider the memo to be separate from the LOA, which constitutes a valid legal contract. Many of the issues raised in the memo were addressed and resolved in President Musharraf's Washington D.C. meetings with President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, and other USG principals. In preparing a response, post encourages USG agencies to include references to the understandings regarding the F-16 LOA that came out of those Washington meetings. End Comment.



3. (SBU) Text of the September 30 momo:



(Begin Text)



RESTRICTED



IMMEDIATE Ministry of Defence Production Directorate General Defence Purchase Pakistan Secretariat II, Rawalpindi Telephone: 9270924 No. 1367/F-16 pkg/DGDP/FMS



30 Sep 2006



To: ODRP

--- US Embassy,

-- Islamabad



Copy to: DSCA

-- 1111 Jefferson Davis HWY

-- Arlington, VA-22202



Subject: Signing of F-16 LOAs



1. All the three F-16 Package LOAs (PK-D-SAF, PK-D-NAP, PK-D-YAD) are being signed subject to the following conditions: -
a. On the method and schedule of payments we request that Pakistan Be allowed to avail clause 4.4.6 of the LOA Standard Terms and conditions; which allows payment on delivery rather cash prior to deliver. If this is absolutely impossible then we suggest as an alternative, that the schedule of payments be modified. *Under the existing schedule for the 3 LOAs, out of the total package of $2965.95 million*, 83% or $2450.23 million are to be paid by 2009-10, the first four years of the programme. This schedule will be an immense strain on Pakistan,s fiscal and foreign exchange resources, posing sever constraints on Pakistan,s ability to invest in the social and fiscal infrastructure. This will jeopardize Pakistan,s growth and poverty alleviation prospects in a particularly challenging period. We, therefore, request that the payment schedule be back loaded in a manner that most of the payments fall in the last three years of the programme.
“The bottom line is that Pakistan cannot afford the $2 billion required to complete this F-16 program,” wrote Ambassador Patterson in 2009 (*189129: secret*). “At the same time, nothing is more important to good military-military (and overall U.S.-Pakistani) relations than avoiding a blow-up over the F-16 case.”

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE SEEKS FMF FOR F-16 MLU CASE



3. (SBU) In September 2006 the U.S. and Pakistan reached agreement to provide U.S. manufactured F-16's to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The agreement served to stabilize the conventional military balance in South Asia, provide additional business for U.S. defense companies and most importantly, promised to yield foreign policy benefits for the U.S. by exorcising, at least partially, the bitter legacy of the Pressler Amendment. The *F-16 sale was primarily built around three separate Foreign Military Sales cases that had a potential value of $5.1 billion. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes purchased from 36 to 18 lowering the overall value of the deal to $3.1 billion.*



4. (SBU) The three cases were built around the 18 new planes valued at $1.4 billion; associated F-16 munitions for approximately $641 million; and the Mid Life Update for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet valued at $891 million. Additionally, the U.S. has agreed to provide Pakistan with F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA); Pakistan accepted 12 Block 15 F-16 A/B EDA aircraft.



5. (SBU) The Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the Mid-Life Update case covers the sale of the upgrade kits for Pakistan's existing fleet of Block 15 F-16 A/B aircraft, the cost of training Pakistani technicians, and the purchase of specialized tooling to accomplish the installation. Pakistan will also the MLU kits to upgrade some of the EDA F-16's we are providing them. The MLU case was written and agreed upon by the USG and Pakistan as a "mixed funding" case, allowing Pakistan to use $108.395 million in FMF credits on the overall $891 million case. This price does not include the cost of MLU installation outside of Pakistan -- a decision that will likely push the total value of this FMF case to over $1 billion. Pakistan viewed this allowance to partially fund the case with FMF as an opening to amend it on an annual basis. The PAF leadership believes the U.S. understood Pakistan intended to use future FMF credits on the MLU case.


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## Donatello

pakistanipower said:


> its in a testing phase, it may have pulse dropler radar, PEASA or AESA who knows, who tell you that J-20 is fighter bomber? it more like air defense fighter with a secondary role of air to ground



Look at the shape of the wings. Not very agility oriented, but well enough for carrying heavy payload, lots of internal fuel for range and stable flight to drop those bombs.


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## ChineseTiger1986

rockstar08 said:


> 4th gen according to China Standards , i think ....
> @ChineseTiger1986



For China, J-11/J-15 are 3rd gen, while J-20/J-31 are 4th gen.

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## Ultima Thule

Donatello said:


> Look at the shape of the wings. Not very agility oriented, but well enough for carrying heavy payload, lots of internal fuel for range and stable flight to drop those bombs.


and what about the wings of MIG-1.44 and eurofighter, rafale and gripen these r agile fighters with a very similar wing configration, Canard delta planform build for agility not for stable flight to drop bombs, do some research and then talk, no hard feeling


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## Donatello

pakistanipower said:


> and what about the wings of MIG-1.44 and eurofighter, rafale and gripen these r agile fighters with a very similar wing configration, Canard delta planform build for agility not for stable flight to drop bombs, do some research and then talk, no hard feeling


Check the distance of the wings from the cockpit on Typhoon or Mirage or Gripen or Rafale. There is thing called the aspect ratio. It has its part in the flight dynamics. Please have a look yourself.


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## The SC

NKVD said:


> my mistake!! But be Realistic you really think Chinese Industry is so Mature that it Pecked down prices of fifth gen fighter to 50 million when there j-15 is cost them more than 55-60 million A Piece Really. well Even west with So Mature Aviation Industry Couldn't achieve this.And manufacturing j-31 in PAC its your industry is capable to achieve that much of complicated TOT.


Size matters, and yes Pakistan is capable of achieving a part of that ToT, that is why the price should not exceed $50 million a piece. Where the F-16 block 52 costs $34 million a piece made in USA, I mean including very expensive labor and profit.

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## Hyperion

Only F35 is baked, furthermore, composites are not classified, not anymore.



NKVD said:


> j-31 have used RAM Coating and few design change in reducing Rcs Unlike US they have mastered the stealth design and aircraft's like f-35 and,f-22 are fully baked in Fiber-mat Stealth and their structural compositions are Classified .In first impressions of j-31 you can see it is created taking aspect of frontal RCS in A2A combat Typical common in Chinese designs and Russian. but in aerial engagement aircraft should have 360 degree coverage all depend on sensors and jammers used


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## The SC

Lil Mathew said:


> A big country with a high defence budget have many times capital budget that in really seems..
> For example.. Take PAF and IAF..
> PAF budget is ~1.5 billion and IAF budget is 10 billion.. Only 6 times bigger... But take a look at capital budget.. This year IAF capital budget is ~6 billion.. That is revenue budget for maintaining present fleets is ~4 billion.. For maintain a minimum std PAF's old and big fleet also needs somewhat ~1.2 billion.. So capital budget is ~300 million..
> That is IAF capital budget is 6 billion against PAF's 300 million.. So IAF's capital budget is *20 times* bigger than PAF's..


You forgot to substract the $4 billion for maintaining the IAF fleet, have you done it on purpose?
So that will be capital budget: India $2 billion, Pakistan $300 million (That is, if PAF budget is $1.5 billion as you think, If it is $2 billion, the gap will not be that big, PAF capital budget would be $800 million. So IAF capital buget would be  2.5 times bigger)


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## The SC

Syed Hussain said:


> That's why the 3D printing has been brought for in J-31 project...I will cost max around 6 mill per unit.
> Budget is indeed a problem for PAF but when it comes for doing something then same Pakistan completed it's nuclear program(which by West is believed to be many folds advanced than that of indian) & you are well aware for the costs associated with it.


Do you mean $60 million per unit?


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## Ultima Thule

Donatello said:


> Check the distance of the wings from the cockpit on Typhoon or Mirage or Gripen or Rafale. There is thing called the aspect ratio. It has its part in the flight dynamics. Please have a look yourself.


so what is your point dear


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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> ..MORE dreams


well atleast it makes more sense than J-10, if true,
a 70-80 f-16s, 200 jf-17 and 30-60 j-31 means pakistan will be good enough till 2030 . and even ready for MRCA and FGFA from IAF


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## zhang5521

ghazaliy2k said:


> Believe me your english is not that bad as you think so keep writing


thank you my friend

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## Kompromat

Col Amir was suggesting that PAF is in 'no hurry' of buying the FC-31 because its totally and utterly focused on replacing PAF's old fleet of A-5, Mirage-III, Mirage V, F-7P aircrafts with different blocks of JF-17 Thunder fighter. Looking towards the future though the PAF also would have to replace its F-7PGs as well as the older F-16A/B MLU-MIII aircrafts which it received in the 80s. PAF is looking for a platform which shares some aspects in common with the JF-17s to reduce cost, increase its response time and readiness. FC-31 fits the bill because it not only allows the PAF to get hooked with SAC early in its formative years of development to make sure that the end product fits PAF's future needs vis-a-vis PAK-FA/Rafale etc but also is powered by the same class of engines which would be interchangeable with its JF-17s (WS-13/17). FC-31 also offers a common data link/sensor fusion, HMD, some other spare parts and weaponry. The weapon systems PAF will mature on the JF-17s can then be integrated on the FC-31 to make sure that the new jet reaches its operational service level in a short period of joining PAF's service. Its also likely that Pakistan will increase its order as the time goes by and would receive some transfer of technology.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

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## Kompromat



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## zpak

I do believe the A-5C were dual jet aircraft (as they were modeled after the Mig-19. So the PAF does have experience in that regards. This is excellent news. Would be a massive leap. Pakistan should negotiate for partial TOT.


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## AsianLion

@Horus FC-31 is a general term for export version of J-31, What will be the Pakistan Customised version name?

China marketing to sell other countries with FC-31 should not have same name as PAF J31 or FC31.

I am sure FC-31, if lets say Turkey buys one, will remain the same FC-31 as the PAF.

Pakistani indigenous variant would need something like a name, J-31 P or FC31 P. something...something...and all Pakistanis or PAF should call it.


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## Kompromat

AsianUnion said:


> @Horus FC-31 is a general term for export version of J-31, What will be the Pakistan Customised version name?
> 
> China marketing to sell other countries with FC-31 should not have same name as PAF J31 or FC31.
> 
> I am sure FC-31, if lets say Turkey buys one, will remain the same FC-31 as the PAF.
> 
> Pakistani indigenous variant would need something like a name, J-31 P or FC31 P. something...something...and all Pakistanis or PAF should call it.



Too early to say. Personally i think if we buy this jet, we need to nickname it FC-31P Shaheen.

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## truthseeker2010

From another article, "The problem with Chinese engines is that they’ve been remarkably unreliable, Engines require extremely tight tolerances in construction; even small errors can lead to the engine burning out. Quality control, in general, could undermine the J-31’s biggest apparent selling point: its ability to evade radar."

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## Tiger.King

after reading so much about these 5th generation jets i just have one question 
we have seen in red flag that typhoon has take out raptors which are currently only stealth fighter in service indicating that typhoon is a counter jet for these birds so why don't we buy typhoon instead as they are battle tested and can counter stealth jets as well as iaf's migg's and raffles 
I THINK TYPHOON IS A GOOD CHOICES AGAINST VERITY OF ENEMIES


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## AsianLion

Horus said:


> Too early to say. Personally i think if we buy this jet, we need to nickname it FC-31P Shaheen.




Yeah something like FC31 P, BLACK SHAHEEN. Put a Pakistani Oriented title like FC-31P Grey Shaheen.

J-31 normally is called 'Falcon Hawk' or 'GerFalcon'/GyrFalcon as per wiki details : Shenyang J-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## ssethii

Tiger.King said:


> after reading so much about these 5th generation jets i just have one question
> we have seen in red flag that typhoon has take out raptors which are currently only stealth fighter in service indicating that typhoon is a counter jet for these birds so why don't we buy typhoon instead as they are battle tested and can counter stealth jets as well as iaf's migg's and raffles
> I THINK TYPHOON IS A GOOD CHOICES AGAINST VERITY OF ENEMIES


stealth = element of surprise.
If the enemy is weak then they would come out next day blaming the greys for the attack.


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## Last Samuri

Tigerking 

Re your enquiry re paf buying typhoon..as response to rafale and the migs of iaf.

Simple answer we will never ve able to grant you the massive financial concessions that the chinease Wil give you for any of their fighters and the Americans gave you grant aid to buy your falcons recently.

At over 100 million the tyohoon Wil be more expensive than any grant aided falcon and probably even the loan aided j31.

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## graphican

Just saw CNN's video about J-31. How stupid, they are showing a flanker and are calling it J-31  

Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter? - CNN.com

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## Bratva

What's the chance FC-31 turns out to be another FC-20 and GoP is just trolling as usual. Give or take after 2 years, this thread will be unpinned

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## 帅的一匹

zhang5521 said:


> thank you my friend


The more you write, the more you improve.

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## 帅的一匹

Junaid B said:


> Any idea of starting price of J-31? What about the variants?


80 millions Bucks


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## Kompromat

Tiger.King said:


> after reading so much about these 5th generation jets i just have one question
> we have seen in red flag that *typhoon has take out raptors* which are currently only stealth fighter in service indicating that typhoon is a counter jet for these birds so why don't we buy typhoon instead as they are battle tested and can counter stealth jets as well as iaf's migg's and raffles
> I THINK TYPHOON IS A GOOD CHOICES AGAINST VERITY OF ENEMIES



In a close in dogfight. In a real fight the Typhoon won't have the luxury to see the Raptor. You mix PAF pilots the masters of dogfighting in a Stealth aircraft --- i guess we are looking at a pretty lethal makeup.

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## Syed Hussain

The SC said:


> Do you mean $60 million per unit?


Exactly, & most of it will be because of engines & avionics...air frame & small parts cost can be cut through 3D printing as much as 75%.


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## Saifullah Sani

An unidentified Middle Eastern country is in “advanced” talks to make the first foreign purchase of a fighter jet jointly developed by Pakistan and China.

The joint sales team from the Pakistan Air Force and China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation also known as CATIC, are in advanced talks with 10 other countries to sell the JF-17 Thunder, said PAF Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, who heads sales and marketing for the fighter jet.

“We are in advanced negotiations with a Middle Eastern country, but the political situation over there has delayed the deal,” said Mahmood in an interview at the Zhuhai Air Show yesterday, declining to give more details. “But we still expect them to be our first foreign client.”

The JF-17 Thunder fighter jet is among several aircraft China is seeking to export, after designating its domestic aerospace sector as a key national strategic industry. The twin-engine jet was jointly designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, a subsidiary of state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China, also known as AVIC.

The partners are in “advanced talks” with clients in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and South America for jet sales, Mahmood said. He declined to identify any of them. *Prospective orders will be for the third block of 50 planes, with the Pakistan Air Force having ordered the first two blocks of 50.*

*Dual-Seat Version*

Mahmood said there are plans in place for a dual-seater version of the JF-17 Thunder after feedback from potential clients. The third-generation fighter jet, also known as FC-1 Dragon by the Chinese, can be used for aerial reconnaissance and has air-to-air and air-to-surface combat capabilities, according to its product website.

Flightglobal, an aviation-related website, previously reported that the partnership was close to making its first foreign sale.

A mock up of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17 is on display at the Zhuhai Air Show that started Nov. 11 in the province of Guangdong, along with several others produced by AVIC -- including the J-31, one of China’s fifth-generation stealth fighters.

The J-31 gave its first public demonstration at China’s largest air show on Tuesday. Manufactured by a Shenyang AVIC subsidiary, the fighter is a test of the country’s ability to deliver cutting-edge defense technology.

Still largely-shrouded in secrecy, the production of the fighter could add heft to China’s sea and air expansion in the region and its push-back against decades of U.S. economic and military dominance.

China-Pakistan Fighter Jet Nears First Foreign Deal - Businessweek

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## Lil Mathew

The SC said:


> You forgot to substract the $4 billion for maintaining the IAF fleet, have you done it on purpose?
> So that will be capital budget: India $2 billion, Pakistan $300 million (That is, if PAF budget is $1.5 billion as you think, If it is $2 billion, the gap will not be that big, PAF capital budget would be $800 million. So IAF capital buget would be  2.5 times bigger)


I clearly stated IAF total budget is $10 billion.. After subtracting $4 billion revenue budget, capital budget remains $6 billion..
IAF total budget(2013-14)=57502 Rs in cr= $9.3 billion
Capital budget= 37048 Rs in cr= $ 6.15 billion
India’s Defence Budget 2013-14: A Bumpy Road Ahead | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

PAF total budget (2014-15)=Rs149 billion= $1.46 billion
Rs 700 billion allocatedfor defence, up by 12%


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## The SC

Lil Mathew said:


> I clearly stated IAF total budget is $10 billion.. After subtracting $4 billion revenue budget, capital budget remains $6 billion..
> IAF total budget(2013-14)=57502 Rs in cr= $9.3 billion
> Capital budget= 37048 Rs in cr= $ 6.15 billion
> India’s Defence Budget 2013-14: A Bumpy Road Ahead | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses
> 
> PAF total budget (2014-15)=Rs149 billion= $1.46 billion
> Rs 700 billion allocatedfor defence, up by 12%



Well, I have estimated your total yearly budget at $6 billion give or take, and that is because I have seen reports that India can not sustain the current "official" budget, the economy is just not doing that great or as projected, in other words it has slowed down, and budgeting is going trough some major reshufflement. There are also major problems with the IAF fleet that will eat up through the budget.
So theoretically you might have a 20 times bigger budget than PAF's one, but in reality that figure is way too way exaggerated. Also PAF has another budget for procurements and production of new jets (Or do you think the $300 million that you count is sufficient?), so in my own estimate, PAF budget should be at least twice what you think it is.

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## Lil Mathew

The SC said:


> Well, I have estimated your total yearly budget at $6 billion give or take, and that is because I have seen reports that India can not sustain the current "official" budget, the economy is just not doing that great or as projected, in other words it has slowed down, and budgeting is going trough some major reshufflement. There are also major problems with the IAF fleet that will eat up through the budget.


That is not correct.. Allocated money never be reduced according to current economical growth, but will effect next years allocation.. Over spending and underspending will be there( very narrow difference)... For example IAF overspend 72 cr rupees in 2012-13 fidcal year.. That is 0.25 % overspending.. Also IAF underspend 2.5% in 2013-14 fiscal [ this will be added to next year].. All datas are available in official sites..



The SC said:


> So theoretically you might have a 20 times bigger budget than PAF's one, but in reality that figure is way too way exaggerated. Also PAF has another budget for procurements and production of new jets (Or do you think the $300 million that you count is sufficient?), so in my own estimate, PAF budget should be at least twice what you think it is.


Pakistan's economy is a very small economy with very high fiscal deficit.. Allocating extra money to defence other than fiscal budget is somewhat impossible.. From where money will come??


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## farhan_9909

Lil Mathew said:


> That is not correct.. Allocated money never be reduced according to current economical growth, but will effect next years allocation.. Over spending and underspending will be there( very narrow difference)... For example IAF overspend 72 cr rupees in 2012-13 fidcal year.. That is 0.25 % overspending.. Also IAF underspend 2.5% in 2013-14 fiscal [ this will be added to next year].. All datas are available in official sites..
> 
> 
> Pakistan's economy is a very small economy with very high fiscal deficit.. Allocating extra money to defence other than fiscal budget is somewhat impossible.. From where money will come??



Pakistan revenue growth is around 20% per year as this year budget was 0.8trillion pkr more than previous.as per my rough calculation based off 20% average revenue growth(Excluding the deficit),our over all budget would be around 99Billion dollars by 2019 or having the defence budget of 21Billion dollars by 2019.

Though because of the possibility of imran khan govt next year and the space level tax reform's.i am forced to believe that our budget by 2019 will be no less than 130-150Billion dollars or the defence budget no less than 26-28Billion dollars by 2020


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## farhan_9909

2014-15 Budget

43Billion dollars with deficit reduced to 4.9%

2014–15 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2013-14 budget

35Billion dollars

2013–14 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An increase of 22% only in 1 year,expect next year budget to be 52-55Billion dollars or defence budget of 10Billion dollars

Gone are the days of 6% average revenue growth rate.16% was the last year growth rate and so for 19.6% is the growth rate of the first 4 months of this fy


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## The SC

Lil Mathew said:


> That is not correct.. Allocated money never be reduced according to current economical growth, but will effect next years allocation.. Over spending and underspending will be there( very narrow difference)... For example IAF overspend 72 cr rupees in 2012-13 fidcal year.. That is 0.25 % overspending.. Also IAF underspend 2.5% in 2013-14 fiscal [ this will be added to next year].. All datas are available in official sites..
> 
> 
> Pakistan's economy is a very small economy with very high fiscal deficit.. Allocating extra money to defence other than fiscal budget is somewhat impossible.. From where money will come??


Those are savings planned for years ago and invested on long term haul, you won't see them in the budget. So these calculations are at best speculative.


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## Lil Mathew

farhan_9909 said:


> 2014-15 Budget
> 
> 43Billion dollars with deficit reduced to 4.9%
> 
> 2014–15 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2013-14 budget
> 
> 35Billion dollars
> 
> 2013–14 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> An increase of 22% only in 1 year,expect next year budget to be 52-55Billion dollars or defence budget of 10Billion dollars
> 
> Gone are the days of 6% average revenue growth rate.16% was the last year growth rate and so for 19.6% is the growth rate of the first 4 months of this fy


This spending is very low compared to other countries.. Your spending is below 20% of total gdp.. Also take a look at your revenue structure. Tax revenue is less than 10% of gdp or ~20 billion.. It is not even adequate for your debt management..


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## dil_dil

farhan_9909 said:


> 2014-15 Budget
> 
> 43Billion dollars with deficit reduced to 4.9%
> 
> 2014–15 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2013-14 budget
> 
> 35Billion dollars
> 
> 2013–14 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> An increase of 22% only in 1 year,expect next year budget to be 52-55Billion dollars or defence budget of 10Billion dollars
> 
> Gone are the days of 6% average revenue growth rate.16% was the last year growth rate and so for 19.6% is the growth rate of the first 4 months of this fy



If Pakistan can archive GDP growth target of 7% in 2-3 years then i can see revenues raising 20%+ every year. Plus this gov is serious about getting rid of loss making public companies which cost Pakistan Rs500 billion every year.

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## Lil Mathew

The SC said:


> Those are savings planned for years ago and invested on long term haul, you won't see them in the budget. So these calculations are at best speculative.


Sorry.. I didn't get you.. Please explain with an example of such investment..


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## dil_dil

Lil Mathew said:


> This spending is very low compared to other countries.. Your spending is below 20% of total gdp.. Also take a look at your revenue structure. Tax revenue is less than 10% of gdp or ~20 billion.. It is not even adequate for your debt management..



Tax collection was near $23 billion last year, this year it will be close to $28 billion. Actually going from $43 billion budget to $100 billion by 2018 will not be that big of deal looking at tax revenues increase.


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## The SC

Syed Hussain said:


> Exactly, & most of it will be because of engines & avionics...air frame & small parts cost can be cut through 3D printing as much as 75%.





Lil Mathew said:


> Sorry.. I didn't get you.. Please explain with an example of such investment..


The JF-17 program should do as an example.


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## MastanKhan

rockstar08 said:


> well guys i have a off topic question , that why peoples seems to ignore the fact block 3 Jf-17 can be a potent fighter , and right now we need to focus on JF and try to procure more f-16's and mlued them...where block 3 will stand in comparison to J-10s or f-16's ???
> 
> on topic , as most of senior members suggest that we should wait and save money till 2018-2020 and than get 3-4 sqs of J-31 , or may be upgrade them according to our needs ...but it is yet to disclose that which Radar j-31 will be using ,and RCS , IRST etc...



Hi,

The lesson learnt from integrating JF 17 is that you start ahead of the game to be ready in time. And specially with something like the J31----I will give it 8 to 10 years---. Perfect timing if the deal is going to be made.

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## farhan_9909

Lil Mathew said:


> This spending is very low compared to other countries.. Your spending is below 20% of total gdp.. Also take a look at your revenue structure. Tax revenue is less than 10% of gdp or ~20 billion.. It is not even adequate for your debt management..



It is,but each year pakistan overall budget is atleast 20-22% more than previous,pakistan deficit is around 4.9% as compared to 4% for india.

Considering that this year our budget was 21% of GDP($7Billion+$1.6billion),our budget with this growth rate will reach 21Billion dollars by 2019 and even more onwards


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## Shabi1

Lil Mathew said:


> This spending is very low compared to other countries.. Your spending is below 20% of total gdp.. Also take a look at your revenue structure. Tax revenue is less than 10% of gdp or ~20 billion.. It is not even adequate for your debt management..



Pakistan has a huge black economy (undocumented economy), which is the reason why economic figures dont give an accurate estimate for Pakistan and that even despite low economic stats Pakistan manages to boast such a well equipped military and a complex nuclear program.

IMF and other agencies are aware of this, attended a World Bank lecture once and the person giving the lecture acknowledged this. Actual GDP and other stats are much different, its deliberately kept undocumented so that the elite can get away with tax evasion plus a black budget covers for the nuclear program.

Making a economic comparison argument seems irrelevant, the fact is if Pakistan's leadership feels they need something on priority they can procure it. Its about priorities. At the moment Pakistan's priorities are fighting a war with the militants so it is hesitant from committing resources on conventional weapons since war on the eastern front is unlikely and it will avoid one no matter what the provocation. Soon as the internal and western threat is neutralized and focus is again on eastern threat, expect a flux of modernization projects. The decision makers in Pakistan are very competent and know its better to hold out for better weapon systems for which they likely have received advance knowledge. The J-31 over taking the FC-20/J-10B being one example. Same reason for delaying the Cobra and frigate replacements. Despite delaying decisions for better options, if you analyze current platforms, operational capabilities are not being sacrificed and meeting all current actual threat assessments.


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## farhan_9909

oye_natta said:


> Tax collection was near $23 billion last year, this year it will be close to $28 billion. Actually going from $43 billion budget to $100 billion by 2018 will not be that big of deal looking at tax revenues
> increase.



Total revenue collection last year was 35Billion dollars and 40Billion dollars this year

2014–15 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Arsalan

Last Samuri said:


> I would continue to take some of the hi end technology incorporated in both the j10 programmes and the j20/j31 programmes. Ie radars weapons avionics ew suites etc and utilise in a new version of thunder in mk3.



The PAF people surely second you in these wishes. The requirement is to keep developing JF17 in future blocks. We all talk about Blk III but with 2020 timeline for a new platform (FC-31) we may even see a Block IV. So what needs to be done is keep building and developing JF17, the airframe have the potential of all the avionics and radar up gradations, the open structure design gives loads of room for further enhancements. Try to get hands on some hi end tech from J10b and FC-31 (since we are going to buy it eventually so why not get some goodies now approach) and fit JF17 future block with that. This will not only take JF17 to a next level but will also help PAF to evaluate some of the technology they will be getting in FC-31 like in no other way possible and thus we can get the required modifications and improvements. With a decent number of JF17 in service and the old air planes retired, we can go FC-31 and eventually replace the remaining older aircraft (the ones we say wont be replaced by JF17 now like F7PG and Mirage ROSE III) and ending up using two (JF17 and FC-310 or three (JF17, FC-31 and a few F-16/heavier twin engine planes for long range duties like at sea) different platforms in our air force.

*And guys, can we get back to discussing air planes rather then economics )*
*we do have a complete section for that.*


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## dil_dil

farhan_9909 said:


> Total revenue collection last year was 35Billion dollars and 40Billion dollars this year
> 
> 2014–15 Pakistan federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yep, overall revenues will be close to $40 billion. $28 b is just tax collection by FBR.


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## dil_dil

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan has a huge black economy (undocumented economy), which is the reason why economic figures dont give an accurate estimate for Pakistan and that even despite low economic stats Pakistan manages to boast such a well equipped military and a complex nuclear program.
> 
> IMF and other agencies are aware of this, attended a World Bank lecture once and the person giving the lecture acknowledged this. Actual GDP and other stats are much different, its deliberately kept undocumented so that the elite can get away with tax evasion plus a black budget covers for the nuclear program.
> 
> Making a economic comparison argument seems irrelevant, the fact is if Pakistan's leadership feels they need something on priority they can procure it. Its about priorities. At the moment Pakistan's priorities are fighting a war with the militants so it is hesitant from committing resources on conventional weapons since war on the eastern front is unlikely and it will avoid one no matter what the provocation. Soon as the internal and western threat is neutralized and focus is again on eastern threat, expect a flux of modernization projects. The decision makers in Pakistan are very competent and know its better to hold out for better weapon systems for which they likely have received advance knowledge. The J-31 over taking the FC-20/J-10B being one example. Same reason for delaying the Cobra and frigate replacements. Despite delaying decisions for better options, if you analyze current platforms, operational capabilities are not being sacrificed and meeting all current actual threat assessments.



Black economy does not benefit state/army in terms of budget. We should only look at overall state budget and revenues.


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## Sulman Badshah

Last Samuri said:


> Tigerking
> 
> Re your enquiry re paf buying typhoon..as response to rafale and the migs of iaf.
> 
> Simple answer we will never ve able to grant you the massive financial concessions that the chinease Wil give you for any of their fighters and the Americans gave you grant aid to buy your falcons recently.
> 
> At over 100 million the tyohoon Wil be more expensive than any grant aided falcon and probably even the loan aided j31.


kind of agree with you .... PAF needs a decent 4.5 gen fighter too


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## Lil Mathew

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan has a huge black economy (undocumented economy), which is the reason why economic figures dont give an accurate estimate for Pakistan and that even despite low economic stats Pakistan manages to boast such a well equipped military and a complex nuclear program.
> 
> IMF and other agencies are aware of this, attended a World Bank lecture once and the person giving the lecture acknowledged this. Actual GDP and other stats are much different, its deliberately kept undocumented so that the elite can get away with tax evasion plus a black budget covers for the nuclear program.
> 
> Making a economic comparison argument seems irrelevant, the fact is if Pakistan's leadership feels they need something on priority they can procure it. Its about priorities. At the moment Pakistan's priorities are fighting a war with the militants so it is hesitant from committing resources on conventional weapons since war on the eastern front is unlikely and it will avoid one no matter what the provocation. Soon as the internal and western threat is neutralized and focus is again on eastern threat, expect a flux of modernization projects. The decision makers in Pakistan are very competent and know its better to hold out for better weapon systems for which they likely have received advance knowledge. The J-31 over taking the FC-20/J-10B being one example. Same reason for delaying the Cobra and frigate replacements. Despite delaying decisions for better options, if you analyze current platforms, operational capabilities are not being sacrificed and meeting all current actual threat assessments.


How your government access this black economy for spending?? Do your govt secretly collects black money?? Or whether they recover black money?? Or is it state running the black economy??
Black economy is that which is illegal with no taxing.. So no revenue getting from this economy.. Sometimes regarded as a secret streangth, that is if recovered it increases revenue considerably.. India also got a huge black economy.. But of no use until it is counted legally..


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## volatile

Lil Mathew said:


> How your government access this black economy for spending?? Do your govt secretly collects black money?? Or whether they recover black money?? Or is it state running the black economy??



Through GST .


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## Jf Thunder

WE ARE GETTING NEW PLANES


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## Last Samuri

Financially those talking budgets let me suggest that no way is Pakistan in a position to buy a any plus sixty million fighter. That can be block 60.falcons euro canards or j31.

The reason you Wil achieve this is is thru aid alone from either USA or soft loans from china.

Paf current air force budget leaves virtually no money for new fighters. It's operating s very large fleet of fighters eating huge resources in man power maintenance and fuel. 

Paf combat fleet is as larger than most of the wealthy nations of Europe ie France or raf and germany. 

Without aid buying fighters is non starter. This is why you cancelled the j10 purchase for 30.fighters..

USA has 18 block 52s waiting for guys in s second batch you guys have not acquired them despite being outnumbered three to one in 4,th generation fighters by India.

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## Rafi

Last Samuri said:


> Financially those talking budgets let me suggest that no way is Pakistan in a position to buy a any plus sixty million fighter. That can be block 60.falcons euro canards or j31.
> 
> The reason you Wil achieve this is is thru aid alone from either USA or soft loans from china.
> 
> Paf current air force budget leaves virtually no money for new fighters. It's operating s very large fleet of fighters eating huge resources in man power



The PRC and the US will continue to equip and train with the Pak Armed Forces.


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## Last Samuri

Rafi your 200% correct without aid you have no chance


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## Shabi1

Lil Mathew said:


> How your government access this black economy for spending?? Do your govt secretly collects black money?? Or whether they recover black money?? Or is it state running the black economy??
> Black economy is that which is illegal with no taxing.. So no revenue getting from this economy.. Sometimes regarded as a secret streangth, that is if recovered it increases revenue considerably.. India also got a huge black economy.. But of no use until it is counted legally..



We have indirect taxing several other things as well. But economy is not the topic here.


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## razgriz19

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you think PAF will retire 52+s in 25?? You are sadly mistaken ..... As for FC-31 they will probably be arriving after 2018...



when did i say 52+?
We only have 18 52+, the rest are old, they may have been upgraded, but they were originally made in 80s and 90s.
In a decade or so they will become what F-7 and mirage has become for PAF. Flying cofins. They will start to drop from the sky


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## Cinder

Can anyone tell me what fighters and interceptors PAF currently has and how many? Sorry for being a noob, I'm just curious


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## Cinder

Can anyone tell me what fighters and interceptors PAF currently has and how many? Sorry for being a noob, I'm just curious


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## asad71

razgriz19 said:


> when did i say 52+?
> We only have 18 52+, the rest are old, they may have been upgraded, but they were originally made in 80s and 90s.
> In a decade or so they will become what F-7 and mirage has become for PAF. Flying cofins. They will start to drop from the sky


I've heard they have gone beyond Blk 52.


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## Last Samuri

Falcons mlu will remain your state if the art fighter for next decade until 2025.

J31 will not be arriving until then for various reasons not just cost.

For a start this is just a single tech demonstrator they need a dozen or so for going thru three thousand test flights yet. That will take five years plus.

Then plaaf will get first batch post 2020 til 2024.

Building a fifth gen fighter is incredibly expensive and time consuming .

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## rockstar08

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The lesson learnt from integrating JF 17 is that you start ahead of the game to be ready in time. And specially with something like the J31----I will give it 8 to 10 years---. Perfect timing if the deal is going to be made.



yes i agree with you , i am sure PAF will not go for a un proven Platform , Jf is also unproven but PAF is making them according to their needs , and who knows that we see some major improvement in JF project ... its like more money we put in this project , more better this project will be , and may be in future French will be ready to sell Electronic Suits or Eqip to Pak for JF's ...

back on topic ... J-31 is still in prototype phase , but right now PAF does not need 5th gen fighter , at least not till 2020...because either IAF go for Rafale or F-35 , or maybe more Mki , still we can counter without going for a completely new platform ... with more f16's mlued , Mirage 2k 's or maybe anyone from J-series of Plaaf would do the work .. but i prefer that PAF should buy more med and long range SAM's along with more F-16's , and put their focus and money on mass producing thunders ... 
what do you think ?

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## Stealth

IMO its good for Pakistan to join FC31 program. In future Pakistan have only option to buy 5th gen is from CHINA. If Pakistan join the program btw, it will give Pakistan Airforce good opportunity to learn how to make, build, maintain such aircrafts. Pakistan will definitely MUST join FC31 program but in PAF inventory, FC31 take 2022 to join officially before its in development phase and after China's AF order will be the first priority for China. JF is still shit nothing else more... we are just glorify JF17 is like F22 on ground its just a 3 generation aircraft and if you ask any Pakistan airforce pilot or official, they will just call JF17 "New aircraft to replace old fleet" thats it....

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Make peace-----what else.


Sir.
I firmly believe that the best and most lasting peace is one made from a position of strength .We need to be able to deter our enemy from rash actions for them to talk peace. 
Araz

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## Last Samuri

Araz.

I can assure the Indians want to be left alone to concentrate on growinn g their large economy and realising their potential to be a global industrial giant.

The Indians have more to lose from conflict than . Pakistan they are the ones that everybody in the west expects to be leading the Asian growth engine. India wants to pull millions out of poverty to do his they need stability . A war or conflict with anyone will slow down Indian growth.

This notion that India is planning to invade Pakistan and destroy it is not what people see or perceive in the west.

There are elements in power that insist on stirring trouble and until power is wrestled from these elements peace and growth in particular for Pakistan will never happen


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## universal soldier

any idea about the middle eastern country that want to purchase JF-17 ?


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## RAMPAGE

Syria?

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## A2Z

choudhryl16 said:


> Can anyone tell me what fighters and interceptors PAF currently has and how many? Sorry for being a noob, I'm just curious


Search PAF in wikipedia and look the inventory section. This is probably the easiest way, you wont get the exact number but you'll get an idea.


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## A2Z

J-31 would be a great addition but I think its too early to say that Pakistan would be getting it for sure. Earlier PAF also showed interest in J-10B but now its quite clear that Pakistan wont buy J-10B.


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## Ray_of_Hope

I pray that this deal goes through cuz we have heard of so many possible deals but not a single one went through

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## nwmalik

Maybe Bahrain? 
Just my guess.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

My guess is Lebanon. 
Reason 
ISIS on door step.
Funds paid for Aircraft procurement by Saudi Arabia.
Syria can not send her armed forces for protection in case of an invasion from any direction.

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## Hurter

@Oscar I am unable to see my homepage.. It gives an error 

'You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.'

Am I banned?


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## monitor



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## SQ8

Junaid B said:


> @Oscar I am unable to see my homepage.. It gives an error
> 
> 'You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.'
> 
> Am I banned?



upgrades in progress. Please be patient as bugs will be encountered while we update the forum.

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## monitor



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## monitor

*Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter?*
Editor's note: Reuben F. Johnson is a correspondent for IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, a publication devoted to defense and security intelligence and analysis. The views expressed are his own.

Zhuhai, Guangdong Province (CNN) -- Zhuhai's Air Show has always been a venue for surprises, usually first-time showings of advanced Chinese military hardware.

China's pathologically secretive defense industry normally shows nothing official of its weapons programs to anyone, which makes the biennial Zhuhai expo the only chance to see what its weapons makers have been up to.

Much has been written in the past few years about China's defense sector developing increasingly more capable weapons systems that approach the capability of their U.S. and European analogues.

Some Chinese weapons, such as a full range of anti-ship and air-to-surface missiles, seem to show that its military -- the People's Liberation Army (PLA) -- is equipped to challenge U.S. Navy carrier battle groups and potentially deny the U.S. the ability to operate in certain areas of the Pacific. But questions remain about how battle-ready the PLA is and whether it can function in a modern, network-centric warfare environment.

Battlefield autonomy
Today's battlefield operates on the premise that autonomy should be pushed down to the lowest level -- even down to the man in the field -- because time is of the essence. Getting inside of the enemy's "decision loop" is the key to victory. But, giving individual units the ability to make their own tactical decisions without their orders being delivered from several layers up the chain of command is an anathema to the "control uber alles" mentality of the Chinese leadership.

In terms of new weapons, the number one attraction at Zhuhai this year was the new Shenyang FC-31 fighter. It has generated a good deal of excitement as it's the first time a new Chinese military aircraft has been unveiled while still in the early stages of development -- we usually have to wait until after they start serving in the PLA's air force.
The FC-31 is designed to look like a stealth fighter aircraft in the class of the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. It is also the second, but smaller, stealth-type design to be developed by China. The FC-31's "Big Brother," the Chengdu J-20, first flew in January 2011 but has been shrouded in secrecy ever since.

The FC-31 "looks" stealthy and its shape mimics that of the F-35 in some respects. But it is impossible to tell just how successful the Shenyang design team has been in developing an aircraft with a low radar cross section without knowing the materials used, the placement of the engines inside the aircraft, and how well the heat signature from the engines has been suppressed by the design of the exhaust nozzle section.

Flawed design?
Like other PLAAF fighter aircraft, the FC-31 is powered by Russian-made jet engines, in this case two Klimov RD-93 models, which are a specialized variant of the same engine that powers the famous Mikoyan "MiG-29." There have been rumors that a team of renegade designers from the Mikoyan bureau in Moscow assisted Shenyang in the development of the aircraft, but a senior MiG official stated "no, as far as I know they [the Chinese] completed this design themselves, and they seem to have done a good job on their own."

The MiG official may be correct. An aircraft of this type designed with Russian assistance would probably perform better.
The FC-31's flight routine shows that it "bleeds" too much energy -- so when it enters into a turn it begins to lose altitude. Even during straight and level flight the pilot has to engage the engine's afterburners in order to keep the aircraft from sinking to a lower altitude. These are defects in the aircraft's aerodynamic design that a Russian design team would not have made.

Western aerospace analysts point out that the FC-31 flown at Zhuhai is a "clean" jet in that it is not armed, which means that an aircraft configured for a real mission and fitted with weapons would be even heavier and would perform even worse.
Timing a coincidence?
So, why has the PLAAF chosen to exhibit an aircraft that is either overweight, underpowered or both?
It could be an oblique signal to Washington timed to coincide with President Barack Obama's visit to Beijing for the APEC summit. The underlying message: "China is stronger than you think."

This would not be the first such example of China trying to use its defense industry to flex its muscles. In January 2011, when the J-20 first flew, then-U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was in Beijing for an official visit. His read was that the timing of the two events was in no way coincidental.
Unfortunately for the PLA, the gesture falls flat.

Many would have been more impressed by the FC-31 in photos posted on Chinese websites than after seeing it actually fly at the air show.
Looks can be deceiving, as they say.


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## Dil Pakistan

Egypt ?


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## zhang5521




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## aliyusuf

choudhryl16 said:


> Can anyone tell me what fighters and interceptors PAF currently has and how many? Sorry for being a noob, I'm just curious



I have hashed up something in the link below based on how many, of what is currently operational, was inducted and (based on my internet findings and news releases) what has been lost due to attrition. It is still a guestimate at best.

Pakistan Air Force Current Fighter Fleet | aliyusufs


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## Green Arrow

Good news. It will boost our defence industry


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## Viper0011.

Last Samuri said:


> *I can assure the Indians want to be left alone to concentrate on growinn g their large economy and realising their potential to be a global industrial giant.*
> 
> *The Indians have more to lose from conflict than*



You are making some seriously dangerous assumptions Pal. Modi isn't trying to get into a Nuclear war. He's preparing the IAF and supportive IA and IN regiments of a temporary, small scale conflict which may leave long term impotence in the other country's air defense, Naval and other capabilities. 
A large air strike by SU-30's, Jag's and supportive MIG-21's (let alone Mirages and all), can leave serious damage to your assets. If you down 100 jets out of 200 invading, so what??? How many would you lose and can you sustain the loss of -16's in numbers as its your only primary BVR jet.....add losses on the ground to this. One air strike or a few small conflicts don't call out for a Nuke war. Nor will the world allow for it. There is wish to live in Pakistan as well. Its not India where everyone wants to live. So small conflicts won't lead to a Nuke war as many here think.
So back to the conventional setup....making these dangerous assumptions like the above is silly. What you need is, more jets and stronger Navy. Support your gov't as they are bringing a lot of investment, you'll start to see results in the next three years. Additional 4-5 billion in the next 3-4 years (if the system continues to make progress), will NOT be an issue. PAF can go shopping and get the advanced twin turbines. I think they've realized the need before any Stealthy platform can ever be acquired. Get your self prepared well for small conflicts, instead of making imaginary statements and assumptions that could become huge miscalculations (like the mistakes and assumptions already made by the PAF planning division since 1990's). No more room exists for these serious mistakes for future planning.

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## zaid butt

if we now order them then we will get them in near 2018 i guess and with TOT it will be beyond almost 2022

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## The SC

Stealth said:


> IMO its good for Pakistan to join FC31 program. In future Pakistan have only option to buy 5th gen is from CHINA. If Pakistan join the program btw, it will give Pakistan Airforce good opportunity to learn how to make, build, maintain such aircrafts. Pakistan will definitely MUST join FC31 program but in PAF inventory, FC31 take 2022 to join officially before its in development phase and after China's AF order will be the first priority for China. JF is still shit nothing else more... we are just glorify JF17 is like F22 on ground its just a 3 generation aircraft and if you ask any Pakistan airforce pilot or official, they will just call JF17 "New aircraft to replace old fleet" thats it....


JF-17 is a third generation fighter in the Chinese system, in the Western system it is a 4th generation fighter, and by all accounts, it is said to be an overall potent multirole light fighter jet. Adding an AESA radar and some other tweaks will make it at least a 4+ generation, which is not bad at all considering the price and the mission.

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## pigtaker

Jordan, we have report here.

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## LonE_WolF

pigtaker said:


> Jordan, we have report here.



kindly share that report here


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## pigtaker

LonE_WolF said:


> kindly share that report here


it just mentioned in the report that jordan has interesting in it, not too much information. this happened in Zhuhai show.

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## PakEye

Maybe IRAQ, already selected Mushaaq Aircrafts.


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## araz

AsianUnion said:


> It is so exciting news for Pakistan and China.
> 
> Any news of Prototype II development of J-31, when it will come out.
> 
> PAF will get 30 jets in 2020, best induction time to rule over skies.
> 
> Awesome J-31 Stealth Fighter :


I would wait a bit more till we have more credible news coming out. For many reasons F31 seems to be tbe .ost logical next purchase. However PAF has its hands full with absorbing the knowledge gained from JFT. Does it have the finances, manpower and indeed the expertise to contribute to the project? If the answer is No which unfortunately at this point seems to be the case the the news has to be premature if not incorrect. 
So what seems to be going on?To my mind the following come to mind.
1. PAF genuinely like the fighter and want to incorporate some aspects of it in JFT to enhance its prospects and develop it. As an offshoot they will agree to buy it when it meets their requirements. This would mean further enhancements of JFT with incorporation of more technologies and commonality of equipment leading to reduction of price and involvement of local industry enhanced production of other technologies such as composites and others.
2. The news has been intentionally floated to suit CATIC to hype up the plane and find local / international partners for further growth and development.
3. It will put the IAF in further disarray as the Rafale contract no longer seems worth the 20 billion that you wanted to pay for it.The soviet 5th generation f8ghter would need some time to mature and therefore they will not have much options but to conceed .superiority or look at even more expensive options from else where

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## qamar1990

Saifullah Sani said:


> An unidentified Middle Eastern country is in “advanced” talks to make the first foreign purchase of a fighter jet jointly developed by Pakistan and China.
> 
> The joint sales team from the Pakistan Air Force and China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation also known as CATIC, are in advanced talks with 10 other countries to sell the JF-17 Thunder, said PAF Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, who heads sales and marketing for the fighter jet.
> 
> “We are in advanced negotiations with a Middle Eastern country, but the political situation over there has delayed the deal,” said Mahmood in an interview at the Zhuhai Air Show yesterday, declining to give more details. “But we still expect them to be our first foreign client.”
> 
> The JF-17 Thunder fighter jet is among several aircraft China is seeking to export, after designating its domestic aerospace sector as a key national strategic industry. The twin-engine jet was jointly designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, a subsidiary of state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China, also known as AVIC.
> 
> The partners are in “advanced talks” with clients in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and South America for jet sales, Mahmood said. He declined to identify any of them. *Prospective orders will be for the third block of 50 planes, with the Pakistan Air Force having ordered the first two blocks of 50.*
> 
> *Dual-Seat Version*
> 
> Mahmood said there are plans in place for a dual-seater version of the JF-17 Thunder after feedback from potential clients. The third-generation fighter jet, also known as FC-1 Dragon by the Chinese, can be used for aerial reconnaissance and has air-to-air and air-to-surface combat capabilities, according to its product website.
> 
> Flightglobal, an aviation-related website, previously reported that the partnership was close to making its first foreign sale.
> 
> A mock up of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17 is on display at the Zhuhai Air Show that started Nov. 11 in the province of Guangdong, along with several others produced by AVIC -- including the J-31, one of China’s fifth-generation stealth fighters.
> 
> The J-31 gave its first public demonstration at China’s largest air show on Tuesday. Manufactured by a Shenyang AVIC subsidiary, the fighter is a test of the country’s ability to deliver cutting-edge defense technology.
> 
> Still largely-shrouded in secrecy, the production of the fighter could add heft to China’s sea and air expansion in the region and its push-back against decades of U.S. economic and military dominance.
> 
> China-Pakistan Fighter Jet Nears First Foreign Deal - Businessweek


all is bs till we actually see any of the money…

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## SQ8

araz said:


> I would wait a bit more till we have more credible news coming out. For many reasons F31 seems to be tbe .ost logical next purchase. However PAF has its hands full with absorbing the knowledge gained from JFT. Does it have the finances, manpower and indeed the expertise to contribute to the project? If the answer is No which unfortunately at this point seems to be the case the the news has to be premature if not incorrect.
> So what seems to be going on?To my mind the following come to mind.
> 1. PAF genuinely like the fighter and want to incorporate some aspects of it in JFT to enhance its prospects and develop it. As an offshoot they will agree to buy it when it meets their requirements. This would mean further enhancements of JFT with incorporation of more technologies and commonality of equipment leading to reduction of price and involvement of local industry enhanced production of other technologies such as composites and others.
> 2. The news has been intentionally floated to suit CATIC to hype up the plane and find local / international partners for further growth and development.
> 3. It will put the IAF in further disarray as the Rafale contract no longer seems worth the 20 billion that you wanted to pay for it.The soviet 5th generation f8ghter would need some time to mature and therefore they will not have much options but to conceed .superiority or look at even more expensive options from else where



1. The aircraft was not the product PAF was looking at for its 5th generation requirement. However, if a developed version offers all that the PAF wants, it will take a flying aircraft over as of yet concept. 

2. CATIC is so far not in charge of the project's export. 

3. Not exactly, the Rafale still remains a potent threat. What a 5th generation platform with the PAF will do is that it will create problems for the Indian ADGE(Air Defence Ground Environment) to provide sufficient warning and defence for its most key installations and give PAF the ability to strike Anywhere in the most heavily defended areas of India.

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## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> 3. Not exactly, the Rafale still remains a potent threat. What a 5th generation platform with the PAF will do is that it will create problems for the Indian ADGE(Air Defence Ground Environment) to provide sufficient warning and defence for its most key installations and give PAF the ability to strike Anywhere in the most heavily defended areas of India.



It would have clear first shoot advantage against Rafale but on the downside in internal bay only configuration it won't carry more than 4 AAMs and it probably lacks a canon too.

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## JonAsad

Saifullah Sani said:


> The twin-engine jet was jointly designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Corporation



Twin engine?-


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## Jungibaaz

JonAsad said:


> Twin engine?-



Typical journalistic bs. Now JF-17 is a twin engine fighter, news to us all.


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## JonAsad

Jungibaaz said:


> Typical journalistic bs. Now JF-17 is a twin engine fighter, news to us all.


Why people like you or me cant be the journos who actually knows a few things about defence- 
Question: how to apply to be a journalist? -

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## araz

loTE="Last Samuri, post: 6432230, member: 152893"]Araz.

I can assure the Indians want to be left alone to concentrate on growinn g their large economy and realising their potential to be a global industrial giant.

The Indians have more to lose from conflict than . Pakistan they are the ones that everybody in the west expects to be leading the Asian growth engine. India wants to pull millions out of poverty to do his they need stability . A war or conflict with anyone will slow down Indian growth.

This notion that India is planning to invade Pakistan and destroy it is not what people see or perceive in the west.

There are elements in power that insist on stirring trouble and until power is wrestled from these elements peace and growth in particular for Pakistan will never happen[/QUOTE]
My friend.
I am not naive to not realize the pressures on both India and Pakistan to not escalate a skirmish into full scale fight. However please forgive me for taking your statement of India wanting to leave Pakistan alone with a bucketful of salt.
I dont want to digress too much from the subject at hand but in the division of Indo Pak lies the very key to our problems. Our former rulers have effectively left a wedge between the 2 countries in the form of Kashmir. IndIia's initial reason for usurping Kashmir was none other than the establishment of the legacy of the Nehru family. Subsequently the rift in major states and call for independence in various parts of India has rightly brought fears in the heart of the indian polity that releasing their hold on kashmir will lead to subsequent dismemberment of the indian state. The situation is very tricky and the last attempt made by Musharraf to restore sanity at the cost of a national step down from our stated position . No one else but the indians are to be blamed for scupperring that peace overture.
For an agricultural nation the most important thing is water and inspite of sheer stupidity and neglect we have a genuine concern about indian control and manipulation of our resource. This will lead to more conflict and in fact I can see a major war in the region in or around the 30s. Our and your arming by vested interests is merely to ensure that this war occurs and leads to the 3rd world war unless we are careful.
araz


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## Last Samuri

First impressions

J31,/ looks a great airframe very stealthy.

My question or doubt on the fighter is how good or bad is the engine technology.

Secondly a fifth generation platform deserves fifth generation radar cockpit and weapons . At this stage all of these are yet to demonstrateed by chinease.

I am sure j31, will get the engine radars weapons and ew suites eventually but those Pakistanis expecting this to happen before 2025 are being grossly optimistic.

For me fifth generation fighter need a tvc engine of Russian or European standard.

Aesa radars ew suites of dassult spectra capability and bvr missiles of the amraam d or meteors bvr standard.

At this stage these areas the chinease are marginally behind the europeans and Americans 

This is what will take five or seven more years

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## rockstar08

JonAsad said:


> Why people like you or me cant be the journos who actually knows a few things about defence-
> Question: how to apply to be a journalist? -



Oh damn, RIP to Journalism .. as @JonAsad is about to be one 

on topic, first it was KSA , but nothing happen ... they show interest and than forget ... unless we see show orders and $$$ , nothing to be excited

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## airmarshal

Well all Middle East countries are in a state of flux thanks to American intervention and our accepting this open terrorism of the west. 

My guess is Egypt or Iraq.


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## Dil Pakistan

Last Samuri said:


> First impressions
> 
> J31,/ looks a great airframe very stealthy.
> 
> My question or doubt on the fighter is how good or bad is the engine technology.
> 
> Secondly a fifth generation platform deserves fifth generation radar cockpit and weapons . At this stage all of these are yet to demonstrateed by chinease.
> 
> I am sure j31, will get the engine radars weapons and ew suites eventually but those *Pakistanis expecting this to happen before 2025 are being grossly optimistic.*
> 
> For me fifth generation fighter need a tvc engine of Russian or European standard.
> 
> Aesa radars ew suites of dassult spectra capability and bvr missiles of the amraam d or meteors bvr standard.
> 
> At this stage these areas the chinease are marginally behind the europeans and Americans
> 
> This is what will take five or seven more years



Generally your points are fair but I want to touch on the above one point only.

PAF was not born yesterday and they also not deaf, dumb and blind. If they have put their hands into something then they have a plan as well.

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## siegecrossbow

Donatello said:


> Hmm, interesting. So we don't know yet which radar J-31 is flying with? I believe it would be similar to J-20's, except that since J-20 is more of a fighter bomber than a fighter, radar modes might differ a bit.



I am under the impression (from weapons bay size and airframe configuration) that it is more of a fighter-interceptor with accomodations for air-to-ground munitions.

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## Max Pain

aliyusuf said:


> I have hashed up something in the link below based on how many, of what is currently operational, was inducted and (based on my internet findings and news releases) what has been lost due to attrition. It is still a guestimate at best.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Current Fighter Fleet | aliyusufs



is it possible that you might update the info and inventory of PAF on wikipedia page, I ve noticed a lot of information is woefully outdated, it needs an update, looks like nobody has bothered updating it, yet everyone checks it.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In a short conflict---neither parties can afford to lose over 50 aircraft a piece. After digging deeper into it----india cannot have any conflict with Pakistan---plain and simple---. It simply cannot afford to---.

There is too much risk involved----and then the " what if " factor---. As a striking force----it will suffer heavier losses of its aircraft---. If the iaf suffers 1 and 1 / 2 to twice the numbers----its myth is blown to smithereens---from a wannabe policeman of south asia---it would become a laughing stock.

And what about the counter---paf will always make counter strikes---as a matter of fact as the iaf strikes be coming in---paf strikes would be going out as well.

If paf can get 2 sqdrn's of heavies---I would say that Mr Modi will have some serious second thoughts.

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## fatman17

*




*
*With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement*
*
Nov. 15, 2014 - 04:37PM | 
By WENDELL MINNICK*

*Export Ambitions: A Chinese J-31 stealth fighter performs at the Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai on Nov. 11. (JOHANNES EISELE/ / AFP/Getty Images)*

*ZHUHAI, CHINA* — When China’s stealthy, twin-engine J-31 took to the skies over Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, the skies were cloudy, but the message the country wanted to send was clear.

Beijing not only plans to sell a new fighter — it also wants to sell itself on the world stage.

“I think the public unveiling of J-31 certainly shows the Chinese military is now more confident and transparent,” said Wang Dong, director of the School of International Studies, Center for Northeast Asian Strategic Studies, Peking University.

Beijing’s lack of transparency has created suspicion and speculation in the Pentagon and among China watchers in Washington.

“This is a message of reassurance to the region,” Wang said. Becoming more transparent and revealing your top military technologies serves as a message of deterrence to potential rivals. “China’s increase in confidence and transparency should be applauded.”

China plans to export the J-31; the customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan. The J-31 will be the first stealth fighter available on the global market for those who face US export restrictions or cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35.

The J-31 export revelation occurred in the AVIC Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft during the preshow media tour. The placard for the model said “FC-31.” Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export. This was the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.

Larry Wortzel, a commissioner of the US congressionally appointed US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the first public demonstration flight of the J-31 and the unveiling of the FC-31 coincides with the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Beijing and the visit of US President Obama.

It reminded Wortzel of the same greeting that former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates got with the surprise first flight of the CAC-built J-20 stealth fighter during his visit to China in January 2011. The incident was interpreted by many in Washington as a political signal to the US delegation, though Chinese officials denied there was a connection. Regarding the coincidence of Obama’s visit to China and the appearance of the J-31 at Zhuhai, Wortzel said, “at least this time there is some advance notice.”

The presence of the aircraft at Zhuhai indicates China is looking at the export arena, said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.

“This, however, raises numerous questions, not least of all, just which of China’s present export customers is in the market for or has the capacity to absorb and field what is at least notionally a fifth-generation combat aircraft,” he said. Barrie noted that in terms of a successor to the Chengdu J-7 fighter family in the export arena, developments of the CAC-built J-10 or the JF-17/FC-1 are far more credible in the near term.

China seems to be aiming at an odd market niche, said Roger Cliff, nonresident senior fellow for the Asia Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council. “Countries that don’t want to pay for an F-35, but want something better, than, say, a MiG-29 or F-16,” such as Iran and Pakistan, might be interested in the FC-31. However, there does not seem to be enough of an export market to justify the development costs, Cliff said. “Not that everything AVIC does is driven by economic logic.”

Cliff suspects that if the Chinese Air Force is planning to buy the J-31, “it will be the ‘low’ part of a high-low mix with the more-capable system, the J-20 [stealth fighter], conspicuously absent at Zhuhai, even though it is presumably further along in its development.”

Cliff said that if the point was to show off China’s capabilities, it would bring a J-20 to Zhuhai. “For China to offer for export the less-capable of two similar systems, however, would be consistent with past practice,” such as the JF-17/FC-1 and J-10 fighters and the KS-1 and HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems.

The one item the Chinese have trouble duplicating is advanced fighter engine designs. The Russian-built Saturn AL-31 engine is believed to be the power source for the J-31 prototype. This does not necessarily mean the fighter will have export problems due to licensing. Cliff said there is precedent for the Russian’s allowing re-export of the RD-93 engine on the FC-1/JF-17, “so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed in this case.”

China is trying to develop the indigenous WS-13 engine to take the RD-93’s place on the FC-1 and, presumably, the J-31. “If they succeed, then Russian engines won’t be an issue.”

Chinese officials have not explained the J-31’s striking resemblance to the F-35, but espionage is the most likely explanation.

“I have argued you always get a double bounce from [Chinese] espionage — they get the system for the [military] and also sell it,” said Edward Timperlake, former Pentagon director of technology assessment, international technology security. “The bad news/ good news is if the collectors [aka spies] were successful in getting the F-35, hopefully they did it mid-software design, so they really do not have the logic of the software as the US constantly improves the coding — much like successfully stealing a calculus midterm without being present in class — being proud of an A and then failing to steal the final.”

Evidence does exist that suggests China is still trying to get access to that final test paper. In June, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation alleged that a Chinese businessman living in Canada, Su Bin, accessed both F-22 Raptor and F-35 secrets from US defense industry computers. Su is alleged to have obtained F-35 test plans and “blueprints” that would “allow us [China] to catch up rapidly with US levels … [and] stand easily on the giant’s shoulders,” according to Su’s e-mails made public by the US Department of Justice.

Wortzel, who wrote the book, “The Dragon Extends its Reach: Chinese Military Power Goes Global,” said it is still unknown how much reverse engineering and technology theft influenced the aircraft design.

“It is a significant development that shows how the parallel development process is going inside AVIC” for the J-31 and J-20. “The commission’s annual report project [initial operating capability] for both the J-20 and the J-31 is in the 2016-2017 time frame.”

But how stealthy and fifth-generation is the J-31 compared to its near mirror image, the F-35? Fifth-generation means more than just stealth, Cliff said.

“It also includes super-cruise, thrust vectoring, AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar, and high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links,” he said.

Admittedly, by those standards even the F-22 and F-35 are not completely fifth-generation, Cliff said, “but since, like the F-35, the J-31 doesn’t look like it will have super-cruise or thrust-vectoring, whether it is more than just a stealthy fourth-generation fighter will depend on whether it comes with an AESA radar and/or high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links, which the F-35 does have.”

The physical resemblance between the J-31 and the F-35 — despite the difference in relative size — indicates an effort by China to reproduce the F-35s stealthy external design, Timperlake said.

“If it is a success in being physically stealthy and they build a lot it could be a problem” for our allies in the region, he said.

However, stealth is simply a survivability feature and analysts must learn more about the internal systems. The real combat engagement operational and tactical question is the F-35 fusion cockpit and whether the Chinese actually have anything close to it, Timperlake said.

“Fusion will make all the difference in looking at the J-31 as a real competitor or just a linear generational development aircraft with perhaps enhanced survivability that will still need a hub spoke battle management [concept of operations] — [airborne warning and control system] or [ground-controlled interception] being essential for them,” he said. ■

*Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.*

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## HAIDER

Stealth plane with smoke ???...no fun. But anyway this is done deal because its coming with RD93, but J10 deal failed due to better engine sanction/ AL31. J10 engine and frame wise better then J31. ..2cents


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## Xn Jin

Pakistan today said it is looking to sell JF-17 Thunder combat jets and trainer aircraft to Saudi Arabia, but rejected reports it was in talks with the oil-rich nation for nuclear cooperation. Saudi Crown Prince Salman bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud is scheduled to visit Pakistan during February 15-17. The visit is expected to focus on deeper security and defence cooperation between the two sides.
Foreign Office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam told a weekly news briefing that defence cooperation would figure in the Crown Prince’s interactions and that Pakistan was eyeing Saudi Arabia as a market for military gear. “Certainly, defence cooperation would figure in the talks. The army chief would be calling him separately,” she said.
Pakistan is interested in selling arms to Saudi Arabia, including the JF-17 Thunder jet co-developed with China, the Mushak trainer aircraft and other equipment, she added. Aslam rejected recent Western media reports suggesting that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are looking at nuclear cooperation, describing them as “baseless”. “There is a whispering campaign and at times there are reports based on leaks or background briefings…They are baseless. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not discussing nuclear cooperation,” she said.
This would be Crown Prince’s first visit to Pakistan after he became Defence Minister in 2011. Prince Salman, Aslam noted, was also the Deputy Prime Minister. During the visit, the Prince will hold talks with President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on bilateral and global issues of mutual interest.


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## Rafi

Our nuclear program is for us, and us alone.

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## Xn Jin

JonAsad said:


> Why people like you or me cant be the journos who actually knows a few things about defence-
> Question: how to apply to be a journalist? -


 consult hamid meer to be a davil one or consult lukman to be more davil


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## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> It would have clear first shoot advantage against Rafale but on the downside in internal bay only configuration it won't carry more than 4 AAMs and it probably lacks a canon too.



The weapons load is too soon to tell. However, first shoot advantage it would have against most Indian platforms. Yet, I dont see that as a reason for purchase as much as the ability to attack within a dense air defence network with some impunity.

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## Tayyab1796

my guess is Jordan or Iraq ...


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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In a short conflict---neither parties can afford to lose over 50 aircraft a piece. After digging deeper into it----india cannot have any conflict with Pakistan---plain and simple---. It simply cannot afford to---.
> 
> There is too much risk involved----and then the " what if " factor---. As a striking force----it will suffer heavier losses of its aircraft---. If the iaf suffers 1 and 1 / 2 to twice the numbers----its myth is blown to smithereens---from a wannabe policeman of south asia---it would become a laughing stock.
> 
> And what about the counter---paf will always make counter strikes---as a matter of fact as the iaf strikes be coming in---paf strikes would be going out as well.
> 
> If paf can get 2 sqdrn's of heavies---I would say that Mr Modi will have some serious second thoughts.


The heavies in my opinion will be some custom made J-20s for PAF, I think it because PAF pilots were invited to get into them...
These will be on top of the FC-31s the medium stealth platform. They might be 24 heavies and 80 medium weights.

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## Last Samuri

China is not selling the j20. As per report above . This is their version of the f22 raptor.

They Will not sacrifice their cutting edge technology falling into USA hands..

As report states it's the smaller lower cost j31 that is bring marketed to buyers hence with only prototype they are keen to display this.

J20 will enter service by 2020.with plaaf and j31.several years later again just like raptor and lightening program


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## aliyusuf

Max Pain said:


> is it possible that you might update the info and inventory of PAF on wikipedia page, I ve noticed a lot of information is woefully outdated, it needs an update, looks like nobody has bothered updating it, yet everyone checks it.



Had done that exercise many years ago ... it got changed many times by others. But good idea ... I will give a go at it again, when I have some free time.


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## niaz

Country is obviously Egypt. But why does the report mentions 'Twin engine fighter'. JF-17 has a single RD-93 engine?


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## AsianLion

MastanKhan said:


> If paf can get 2 sqdrn's of heavies---I would say that Mr Modi will have some serious second thoughts.




Are you suggesting maximum 2 squadrons of J-31, FC31P for Pakistan, to do the job?


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## MastanKhan

AsianUnion said:


> Are you suggesting maximum 2 squadrons of J-31, FC31P for Pakistan, to do the job?



Hi,

2 sqdrn's of heavies is for the current situation----like the J11 variants or the J7 H B version or maybe maybe F15's.

J 31 is 6 to 10 years away. We have a current problem at hand that needs to be addressed as well.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

niaz said:


> Country is obviously Egypt. But why does the report mentions 'Twin engine fighter'. JF-17 has a single RD-93 engine?


It might be 'Twin seat fighter' which is miscommunicated as twin engined fighter.


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## shuntmaster

Who will be seller, china or Pakistan?
Which engines will be used?


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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 2 sqdrn's of heavies is for the current situation----like the J11 variants or the J7 H B version or maybe maybe F15's.
> 
> J 31 is 6 to 10 years away. We have a current problem at hand that needs to be addressed as well.


I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.

world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions). 
even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish) 

still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones

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## FaujHistorian

Irfan Baloch said:


> I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.
> 
> world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions).
> even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish)
> 
> still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones




Ab Puchtaa-ay kya ho-wat
jub chiryan chug ga-ayeen khait

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## ali_raza

FaujHistorian said:


> Ab Puchtaa-ay kya ho-wat
> jub chiryan chug ga-ayeen khait


not to mention some 3billion$ in 1998 aid from japan in case pakistan remain nuclear free.

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## FaujHistorian

ali_raza said:


> not to mention some 3billion$ in 1998 aid from japan in case pakistan remain nuclear free.



For a moment even if we forget about such aid etc.

The biggest loss for Pakistan thanks to nukie crackers?

-- Flight of business and money FROM Pakistan. 

So it was a double whammy. 

But why do we care. We are bunch of emotional youthias at heart.


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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 2 sqdrn's of heavies is for the current situation----like the J11 variants or the J7 H B version or maybe maybe F15's.
> 
> J 31 is 6 to 10 years away. We have a current problem at hand that needs to be addressed as well.


Can they be leased? I mean the J-11s. F-15s I wish, and I have done extensive search but no one is offering them, even SA is upgrading its old fleet, and can not sell or lease them without US approval and we all know what that means for Pakistan.
Some experts were stating the the J-31 will be ready in 2 to 3 years, around the same time as the J-20.


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## MastanKhan

FaujHistorian said:


> For a moment even if we forget about such aid etc.
> 
> The biggest loss for Pakistan thanks to nukie crackers?
> 
> -- Flight of business and money FROM Pakistan.
> 
> So it was a double whammy.
> 
> But why do we care. We are bunch of emotional youthias at heart.




Hi,

Flight of business and capital was due to bad mistake by our Dear Nawaz Sharif----when he put restriction on foreign currency----.

India was in a similar quandry---same issuesof sanctions----foreign exchange leaking like water gushing thru a sewer pipe----but then they decided---no---we will not put any restrains----the indian expats said we will stand up and deliver----I believe they delivered close to 20 billion dollars.

Pakistani expats said the same----but Nawz Sharif being the coward that he was----and his dear beloved Ishaq Dar----said no----stop the flow of foreign currency----.

We expats had the capacity to send in around 3 to 5 billion dollars at that time----. With 6 nuc's popping all the expats were running on a massive high---Nawaz Sharif just deflated our ego.

Now----as for the J 20----not being COST EFFECTIVE----since when heavy weapons which give you dominance over the enemy cost effective.

This truly is a golden oppurtunity for pakistan to get the J20----total air superiority in the arena---and then go for peace.

Pakistanis cannot cpomprehend how bad they have been screwed up by the PAF for delaying the procurement of an aircraft between 2002 and 2004. The JF 17 that they were showing their dependence on is still about 2 years away from its begining to show its true colors.

There are still some members around from 7---8 years ago when I used to emphasize how difficult it is to integrate a new aircraft in your air force----an aircraft that is brand new and nothing known about it----. I would give it a time of 6 to 10 years---.

The problem with paf's thinking was that it made the mistake of thinking that the other party was static in its procurement----well they were---thanks to Mr Singh---but he was just an election away for the change to come----.

They thought that they will develop this plane---keeping in view 'best case scenarios'----the fools never heard that you keep a worst case scenario in mind for a first time adventure----.

Today----we have an oppurtunity that has suddenly popped up from nowhere----we can again have parity with the enemy---actually we can have superioty----we need to make the decision to take on the short term goals on a fast track as well as long term goals.

Instead of going for 30 JF 17's----pak navy should go for 30 JH 7 B's---and 20 JF 17's---this gives us the time for some stability---JH 7 B is a heavy strike aircraft with reasonable legs----the second objective is long term goals----air superiority / air dominance is a must.

China understands this dillema very well----the last six months have been an eye opener for china----actually china has been shocked into a re-awakening---japan, vietnam, philipines and the insttigator of all---india----suddenly---they are slowly trying to put a net of containment around china----.

I think a lots of stuff will be coming china to pakistan for free or on extremely easy terms----. China is not going to take the threat of having vietnam armed by india real easy.

The paf will have to slow down on the Jf 17 and will have to find ways to get some J 20's---regardless of the costs----. We cannot live under the fear of a strike for ever---our economy cannot grow like that at all.

Paf's bad policies have made us negotiate from a position of weakness----we need to find a place to talk from a position of strenght----.

And to those pakistani admins, TT's and mods on this board who were nay sayers of Rafale----look where this aircraft stands today and look at the weapons package it has.

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## FaujHistorian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Flight of business and capital was due to bad mistake by our Dear Nawaz Sharif----when he put restriction on foreign currency----.
> 
> India was in a similar quandry---same issuesof sanctions----foreign exchange leaking like water gushing thru a sewer pipe----but then they decided---no---we will not put any restrains----the indian expats said we will stand up and deliver----I believe they delivered close to 20 billion dollars.
> 
> Pakistani expats said the same----but Nawz Sharif being the coward that he was----and his dear beloved Ishaq Dar----said no----stop the flow of foreign currency----.
> 
> We expats had the capacity to send in around 3 to 5 billion dollars at that time----. With 6 nuc's popping all the expats were running on a massive high---Nawaz Sharif just deflated our ego.
> 
> Now----as for the J 20----not being COST EFFECTIVE----since when heavy weapons which give you dominance over the enemy cost effective.
> 
> This truly is a golden oppurtunity for pakistan to get the J20----total air superiority in the arena---and then go for peace.
> 
> Pakistanis cannot cpomprehend how bad they have been screwed up by the PAF for delaying the procurement of an aircraft between 2002 and 2004. The JF 17 that they were showing their dependence on is still about 2 years away from its begining to show its true colors.
> 
> There are still some members around from 7---8 years ago when I used to emphasize how difficult it is to integrate a new aircraft in your air force----an air force that is brand new and nothing known about it----. I would give it a time of 6 to 10 years---.
> 
> The problem with paf's thinking was that it made the mistake of thinking that the other party was static in its procurement----well they were---thanks to Mr Singh---but he was just an election away for the change to come----.
> 
> They thought that they will develop this plane---keeping in view 'best case scenarios'----the fools never heard that you keep a worst case scenario in mind for a first time adventure----.
> 
> Today----we have an oppurtunity that has suddenly popped up from nowhere----we can again have parity with the enemy---actually we can have superioty----we need to make the decision to take on the short term goals on a fast track as well as long term goals.
> 
> Instead of going for 30 JF 17's----pak navy should go for 30 JH 7 B's---and 20 JF 17's---this gives us the time for some stability---JH 7 B is a heavy strike aircraft with reasonable legs----the second objective is long term goals----air superiority / air dominance is a must.
> 
> China understands this dillema very well----the last six months have been an eye opener for china----actually china has been shocked into a re-awakening---japan, vietnam, philipines and the insttigator of all---india----suddenly---they are slowly trying to put a net of containment around china----.
> 
> I think a lots of stuff will be coming china to pakistan for free or on extremely easy terms----. China is not going to take the threat of having vietnam armed by india real easy.
> 
> The paf will have to slow down on the Jf 17 and will have to find ways to get some J 20's---regardless of the costs----. We cannot live under the fear of a strike for ever---our economy cannot grow like that at all.
> 
> Paf's bad policies have made us negotiate from a position of weakness----we need to find a place to talk from a position of strenght----.
> 
> And to those pakistani admins, TT's and mods on this board who were nay sayers of Rafale----look where this aircraft stands today and look at the weapons package it has.



Bhai I respect you. 


it will be 1000 meter high $tupidity to compare India and Pakistan of the 1990s. 

By comparing apples to oranges, you will always reach a wrong conclusion. Always!


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## MastanKhan

FaujHistorian said:


> Bhai I respect you.
> 
> 
> it will be 1000 meter high $tupidity to compare India and Pakistan of the 1990s.
> 
> By comparing apples to oranges, you will always reach a wrong conclusion. Always!



Hi,

What I was saying to you in part one was---that Nawaz did not have the courage to trust the loyalty of expats after the nuc test----. We would have delivered----but this idiot of his Ishaq Dar----drowned the nation----.

The rest of the post was to other readers.


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## The SC

I totally agree on the essence of the thought that Pakistan should go for Air supremacy for its peace of mind, and for seeking peace through deterrence if necessary.
I also like the idea of the heavy strike aircraft JH 7 B for the navy, if it is less expensive than the J-11, anyhow the best of the two.


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## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> The weapons load is too soon to tell. However, first shoot advantage it would have against most Indian platforms. Yet, I dont see that as a reason for purchase as much as the ability to attack within a dense air defence network with some impunity.



It would be able to take pot shots at enemy strike packages flying high and far with same impunity and maintain air superiority at least within our airspace.

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.
> 
> world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions).
> even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish)
> 
> still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones



Hi,

At that time---Clinton was not honest t us---and Nawaz was a very weak PM___Clinton knew that. The only saving grace would have been----like I wrote earlier----not to have blocked the transfer of foreign exchange----. Nawaz killed the country---.

Here is the bottomline---pakistan was totally broke----so what was the big deal of taking a chance on its expats----. That is why I keep saying---Nawaz has always been a coward----and deals from a position from weakness---.

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## tarrar

Surely PAF will go for it & there are already reports that Pakistan is negotiating with China for J31.

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## boke

很高兴看到这样的新闻，实际上我认为巴基斯坦暂时不必在意这些还未真正确定的新闻报道，枭龙在中国国内看来也是相当不错的一款飞机，从现在已经公布的报道看，巴基斯坦对枭龙的改进还在深入，这说明巴基斯坦对这款飞机的掌握在不断加深，也说明这款飞机的升级改进潜力很大。巴基斯坦空军现在面临的压力比较大，应该先满足自身需要，然后才能全力进攻国际市场，至于现在日常宣传，完全可以当做是预热。我希望巴基斯坦能把枭龙改进成三代半战机，这样就能自我满足来自印度和西方战机的威胁了。好处就是，巴基斯坦可以自己生产和升级这款战机，而不是只能依靠国外，这样不管什么时候都不会被人卡脖子！


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Going back to Clinton----he was just toying with Nawaz-----the supposed offer of F16's was nothing---. Bill was arrogant---remember he would not shake hands with Musharraf the first time he stopped by in Pakistan----.

Nawaz never had the technique to deal from a position of strength----. By putting restriction on capital leaving Pakistan---he had already put himself and the country in a very weak position---a position he could not negotiate from----.

Now if there were no restrictions and expats had filled the coffers with 5 billion plus dollars---Nawaz had a position to deal from strength-----.

But---again----you guys are forgetting something----these nucs are our security----. See what happened to Libya---Iraq---Syria---and on top of that Russia----cold war ended and the Russia was dumped----.

Don't second guess about the F 16 or F 15 deal---if we could trade our nucs for them---if anything you want to second guess or want to HANG SOMEONE----it is the chief of Pakistan air force during 2002 - 2005 ---if it was not for the TRAITORS OF PAF ---- we would not have had these issues.

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## ejaz007

*With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement*

*ZHUHAI, CHINA* — When China’s stealthy, twin-engine J-31 took to the skies over Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, the skies were cloudy, but the message the country wanted to send was clear.

Beijing not only plans to sell a new fighter — it also wants to sell itself on the world stage.

“I think the public unveiling of J-31 certainly shows the Chinese military is now more confident and transparent,” said Wang Dong, director of the School of International Studies, Center for Northeast Asian Strategic Studies, Peking University.

Beijing’s lack of transparency has created suspicion and speculation in the Pentagon and among China watchers in Washington.

“This is a message of reassurance to the region,” Wang said. Becoming more transparent and revealing your top military technologies serves as a message of deterrence to potential rivals. “China’s increase in confidence and transparency should be applauded.”

China plans to export the J-31; *the customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan*. The J-31 will be the first stealth fighter available on the global market for those who face US export restrictions or cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35.

The J-31 export revelation occurred in the AVIC Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft during the preshow media tour. The placard for the model said “FC-31.” Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export. This was the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.

Larry Wortzel, a commissioner of the US congressionally appointed US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the first public demonstration flight of the J-31 and the unveiling of the FC-31 coincides with the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Beijing and the visit of US President Obama.

It reminded Wortzel of the same greeting that former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates got with the surprise first flight of the CAC-built J-20 stealth fighter during his visit to China in January 2011. The incident was interpreted by many in Washington as a political signal to the US delegation, though Chinese officials denied there was a connection. Regarding the coincidence of Obama’s visit to China and the appearance of the J-31 at Zhuhai, Wortzel said, “at least this time there is some advance notice.”

The presence of the aircraft at Zhuhai indicates China is looking at the export arena, said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.

“This, however, raises numerous questions, not least of all, just which of China’s present export customers is in the market for or has the capacity to absorb and field what is at least notionally a fifth-generation combat aircraft,” he said. Barrie noted that in terms of a successor to the Chengdu J-7 fighter family in the export arena, developments of the CAC-built J-10 or the JF-17/FC-1 are far more credible in the near term.

China seems to be aiming at an odd market niche, said Roger Cliff, nonresident senior fellow for the Asia Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council. “Countries that don’t want to pay for an F-35, but want something better, than, say, a MiG-29 or F-16,” such as Iran and Pakistan, might be interested in the FC-31. However, there does not seem to be enough of an export market to justify the development costs, Cliff said. “Not that everything AVIC does is driven by economic logic.”

Cliff suspects that if the Chinese Air Force is planning to buy the J-31, “it will be the ‘low’ part of a high-low mix with the more-capable system, the J-20 [stealth fighter], conspicuously absent at Zhuhai, even though it is presumably further along in its development.”

Cliff said that if the point was to show off China’s capabilities, it would bring a J-20 to Zhuhai. “For China to offer for export the less-capable of two similar systems, however, would be consistent with past practice,” such as the JF-17/FC-1 and J-10 fighters and the KS-1 and HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems.

The one item the Chinese have trouble duplicating is advanced fighter engine designs. The Russian-built Saturn AL-31 engine is believed to be the power source for the J-31 prototype. This does not necessarily mean the fighter will have export problems due to licensing. Cliff said there is precedent for the Russian’s allowing re-export of the RD-93 engine on the FC-1/JF-17, “so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed in this case.”

China is trying to develop the indigenous WS-13 engine to take the RD-93’s place on the FC-1 and, presumably, the J-31. “If they succeed, then Russian engines won’t be an issue.”

Chinese officials have not explained the J-31’s striking resemblance to the F-35, but espionage is the most likely explanation.

“I have argued you always get a double bounce from [Chinese] espionage — they get the system for the [military] and also sell it,” said Edward Timperlake, former Pentagon director of technology assessment, international technology security. “The bad news/ good news is if the collectors [aka spies] were successful in getting the F-35, hopefully they did it mid-software design, so they really do not have the logic of the software as the US constantly improves the coding — much like successfully stealing a calculus midterm without being present in class — being proud of an A and then failing to steal the final.”

Evidence does exist that suggests China is still trying to get access to that final test paper. In June, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation alleged that a Chinese businessman living in Canada, Su Bin, accessed both F-22 Raptor and F-35 secrets from US defense industry computers. Su is alleged to have obtained F-35 test plans and “blueprints” that would “allow us [China] to catch up rapidly with US levels … [and] stand easily on the giant’s shoulders,” according to Su’s e-mails made public by the US Department of Justice.

Wortzel, who wrote the book, “The Dragon Extends its Reach: Chinese Military Power Goes Global,” said it is still unknown how much reverse engineering and technology theft influenced the aircraft design.

“It is a significant development that shows how the parallel development process is going inside AVIC” for the J-31 and J-20. “The commission’s annual report project [initial operating capability] for both the J-20 and the J-31 is in the 2016-2017 time frame.”

But how stealthy and fifth-generation is the J-31 compared to its near mirror image, the F-35? Fifth-generation means more than just stealth, Cliff said.

“It also includes super-cruise, thrust vectoring, AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar, and high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links,” he said.

Admittedly, by those standards even the F-22 and F-35 are not completely fifth-generation, Cliff said, “but since, like the F-35, the J-31 doesn’t look like it will have super-cruise or thrust-vectoring, whether it is more than just a stealthy fourth-generation fighter will depend on whether it comes with an AESA radar and/or high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links, which the F-35 does have.”

The physical resemblance between the J-31 and the F-35 — despite the difference in relative size — indicates an effort by China to reproduce the F-35s stealthy external design, Timperlake said.

“If it is a success in being physically stealthy and they build a lot it could be a problem” for our allies in the region, he said.

However, stealth is simply a survivability feature and analysts must learn more about the internal systems. The real combat engagement operational and tactical question is the F-35 fusion cockpit and whether the Chinese actually have anything close to it, Timperlake said.

“Fusion will make all the difference in looking at the J-31 as a real competitor or just a linear generational development aircraft with perhaps enhanced survivability that will still need a hub spoke battle management [concept of operations] — [airborne warning and control system] or [ground-controlled interception] being essential for them,” he said. ■

*Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.

With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement | Defense News | defensenews.com*


----------



## faisal6309

boke said:


> 很高兴看到这样的新闻，实际上我认为巴基斯坦暂时不必在意这些还未真正确定的新闻报道，枭龙在中国国内看来也是相当不错的一款飞机，从现在已经公布的报道看，巴基斯坦对枭龙的改进还在深入，这说明巴基斯坦对这款飞机的掌握在不断加深，也说明这款飞机的升级改进潜力很大。巴基斯坦空军现在面临的压力比较大，应该先满足自身需要，然后才能全力进攻国际市场，至于现在日常宣传，完全可以当做是预热。我希望巴基斯坦能把枭龙改进成三代半战机，这样就能自我满足来自印度和西方战机的威胁了。好处就是，巴基斯坦可以自己生产和升级这款战机，而不是只能依靠国外，这样不管什么时候都不会被人卡脖子！


First of all, I had to use Google translate to know what you were saying, so please use English to write.

Second, yes, Pakistan is currently relying a lot on foreign countries because of their air crafts. But things will change now. USA is forcing us to make our own full fledged defence industry and friendly cooperation between Pakistan and China will help us counter threats from India as well as west. We now need to cooperate more to end this dependency of technology on other countries (especially west).


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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> *With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement*
> 
> *ZHUHAI, CHINA* — When China’s stealthy, twin-engine J-31 took to the skies over Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, the skies were cloudy, but the message the country wanted to send was clear.
> 
> Beijing not only plans to sell a new fighter — it also wants to sell itself on the world stage.
> 
> “I think the public unveiling of J-31 certainly shows the Chinese military is now more confident and transparent,” said Wang Dong, director of the School of International Studies, Center for Northeast Asian Strategic Studies, Peking University.
> 
> Beijing’s lack of transparency has created suspicion and speculation in the Pentagon and among China watchers in Washington.
> 
> “This is a message of reassurance to the region,” Wang said. Becoming more transparent and revealing your top military technologies serves as a message of deterrence to potential rivals. “China’s increase in confidence and transparency should be applauded.”
> 
> China plans to export the J-31; *the customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan*. The J-31 will be the first stealth fighter available on the global market for those who face US export restrictions or cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35.
> 
> The J-31 export revelation occurred in the AVIC Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft during the preshow media tour. The placard for the model said “FC-31.” Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export. This was the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.
> 
> Larry Wortzel, a commissioner of the US congressionally appointed US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the first public demonstration flight of the J-31 and the unveiling of the FC-31 coincides with the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Beijing and the visit of US President Obama.
> 
> It reminded Wortzel of the same greeting that former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates got with the surprise first flight of the CAC-built J-20 stealth fighter during his visit to China in January 2011. The incident was interpreted by many in Washington as a political signal to the US delegation, though Chinese officials denied there was a connection. Regarding the coincidence of Obama’s visit to China and the appearance of the J-31 at Zhuhai, Wortzel said, “at least this time there is some advance notice.”
> 
> The presence of the aircraft at Zhuhai indicates China is looking at the export arena, said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.
> 
> “This, however, raises numerous questions, not least of all, just which of China’s present export customers is in the market for or has the capacity to absorb and field what is at least notionally a fifth-generation combat aircraft,” he said. Barrie noted that in terms of a successor to the Chengdu J-7 fighter family in the export arena, developments of the CAC-built J-10 or the JF-17/FC-1 are far more credible in the near term.
> 
> China seems to be aiming at an odd market niche, said Roger Cliff, nonresident senior fellow for the Asia Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council. “Countries that don’t want to pay for an F-35, but want something better, than, say, a MiG-29 or F-16,” such as Iran and Pakistan, might be interested in the FC-31. However, there does not seem to be enough of an export market to justify the development costs, Cliff said. “Not that everything AVIC does is driven by economic logic.”
> 
> Cliff suspects that if the Chinese Air Force is planning to buy the J-31, “it will be the ‘low’ part of a high-low mix with the more-capable system, the J-20 [stealth fighter], conspicuously absent at Zhuhai, even though it is presumably further along in its development.”
> 
> Cliff said that if the point was to show off China’s capabilities, it would bring a J-20 to Zhuhai. “For China to offer for export the less-capable of two similar systems, however, would be consistent with past practice,” such as the JF-17/FC-1 and J-10 fighters and the KS-1 and HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems.
> 
> The one item the Chinese have trouble duplicating is advanced fighter engine designs. The Russian-built Saturn AL-31 engine is believed to be the power source for the J-31 prototype. This does not necessarily mean the fighter will have export problems due to licensing. Cliff said there is precedent for the Russian’s allowing re-export of the RD-93 engine on the FC-1/JF-17, “so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed in this case.”
> 
> China is trying to develop the indigenous WS-13 engine to take the RD-93’s place on the FC-1 and, presumably, the J-31. “If they succeed, then Russian engines won’t be an issue.”
> 
> Chinese officials have not explained the J-31’s striking resemblance to the F-35, but espionage is the most likely explanation.
> 
> “I have argued you always get a double bounce from [Chinese] espionage — they get the system for the [military] and also sell it,” said Edward Timperlake, former Pentagon director of technology assessment, international technology security. “The bad news/ good news is if the collectors [aka spies] were successful in getting the F-35, hopefully they did it mid-software design, so they really do not have the logic of the software as the US constantly improves the coding — much like successfully stealing a calculus midterm without being present in class — being proud of an A and then failing to steal the final.”
> 
> Evidence does exist that suggests China is still trying to get access to that final test paper. In June, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation alleged that a Chinese businessman living in Canada, Su Bin, accessed both F-22 Raptor and F-35 secrets from US defense industry computers. Su is alleged to have obtained F-35 test plans and “blueprints” that would “allow us [China] to catch up rapidly with US levels … [and] stand easily on the giant’s shoulders,” according to Su’s e-mails made public by the US Department of Justice.
> 
> Wortzel, who wrote the book, “The Dragon Extends its Reach: Chinese Military Power Goes Global,” said it is still unknown how much reverse engineering and technology theft influenced the aircraft design.
> 
> “It is a significant development that shows how the parallel development process is going inside AVIC” for the J-31 and J-20. “The commission’s annual report project [initial operating capability] for both the J-20 and the J-31 is in the 2016-2017 time frame.”
> 
> But how stealthy and fifth-generation is the J-31 compared to its near mirror image, the F-35? Fifth-generation means more than just stealth, Cliff said.
> 
> “It also includes super-cruise, thrust vectoring, AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar, and high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links,” he said.
> 
> Admittedly, by those standards even the F-22 and F-35 are not completely fifth-generation, Cliff said, “but since, like the F-35, the J-31 doesn’t look like it will have super-cruise or thrust-vectoring, whether it is more than just a stealthy fourth-generation fighter will depend on whether it comes with an AESA radar and/or high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links, which the F-35 does have.”
> 
> The physical resemblance between the J-31 and the F-35 — despite the difference in relative size — indicates an effort by China to reproduce the F-35s stealthy external design, Timperlake said.
> 
> “If it is a success in being physically stealthy and they build a lot it could be a problem” for our allies in the region, he said.
> 
> However, stealth is simply a survivability feature and analysts must learn more about the internal systems. The real combat engagement operational and tactical question is the F-35 fusion cockpit and whether the Chinese actually have anything close to it, Timperlake said.
> 
> “Fusion will make all the difference in looking at the J-31 as a real competitor or just a linear generational development aircraft with perhaps enhanced survivability that will still need a hub spoke battle management [concept of operations] — [airborne warning and control system] or [ground-controlled interception] being essential for them,” he said. ■
> 
> *Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.
> 
> With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement | Defense News | defensenews.com*


 
posted already


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## cnleio

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, also need two seats version.

Congratulation !


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## Jaam92

Qatar or Bahrain 
may be UAE


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## kaku1

rockstar08 said:


> Oh damn, RIP to Journalism .. as @JonAsad is about to be one
> 
> on topic, first it was KSA , but nothing happen ... they show interest and than forget ... unless we see show orders and $$$ , nothing to be excited



KSA is like housewives, they open up the whole shop and in the end they dont buy a thing. In the end KSA will go American or European.

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## OrionHunter

war khan said:


> I pray that this deal goes through cuz we have heard of so many possible deals but not a single one went through


I believe that the Russians haven't given the go-ahead as yet because of the engines?


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## Dr. Strangelove

i hope this wont turn out to be another FC-20


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## AsianLion

Super news, PAF getting 5th Generation Aircraft.

One of the most exciting news, a new Pakistan and China Stealth Fighter, that a profound effect on Indians is clearly seen.

J-31 truly has the best and most beautiful aerodynamic design.


Any news of Prototype II development of J-31, when it will come out.

Under powered Rd-93, Engines seems a major issue both with J-17 Thunder and J-31 ?

PAF will get 30-40 jets in 2020 which is 6 years from now, best induction time to rule over skies.

Awesome J-31 Stealth Fighter :


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## Arsalan

Last Samuri said:


> Araz.
> 
> I can assure the Indians want to be left alone to concentrate on growinn g their large economy and realising their potential to be a global industrial giant.
> 
> The Indians have more to lose from conflict than . Pakistan they are the ones that everybody in the west expects to be leading the Asian growth engine. India wants to pull millions out of poverty to do his they need stability . A war or conflict with anyone will slow down Indian growth.
> 
> This notion that India is planning to invade Pakistan and destroy it is not what people see or perceive in the west.
> 
> There are elements in power that insist on stirring trouble and until power is wrestled from these elements peace and growth in particular for Pakistan will never happen



Kashmir will be the all important role in any peace script written for Pakistan and India. Pakistan wont back out of there genuine claim on Kashmir, India wont grant it, both will keep trying to damage the other through proxies. We had our success with this in the past, India have it now, it can shift back anytime, do not count on things to be messy only for Pakistan.

In short, unless Kashmir dispute is resolved the whole region will kept engaged in these conflicts. Perhaps one reason no one for rest of the world step up any more to get that resolved. Pakistan and India will have to show maturity.

Till then, we both will keep spending on military hardware and keep procuring systems to counter one an other.

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## rockstar08

kaku1 said:


> KSA is like housewives, they open up the whole shop and in the end they dont buy a thing. In the end KSA will go American or European.



they got $$ , they can buy any weapon they want ,


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## Last Samuri

Nobody gives up territory when in a position of strength.

And yes all the power is with the Indians.

You people have enough internal issues to resolve I would not bank in support of europe or the westbb India has great influence in these nations now .

Continued arms race will bankrupt Pakistan eventually you must realise their economic power is leaving you behind year in year out


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## SQ8

Last Samuri said:


> Nobody gives up territory when in a position of strength.
> 
> And yes all the power is with the Indians.
> 
> You people have enough internal issues to resolve I would not bank in support of europe or the westbb India has great influence in these nations now .
> 
> Continued arms race will bankrupt Pakistan eventually you must realise their economic power is leaving you behind year in year out



Depends on what the objectives of the race are for each. but yes.. it is the economy that matters. 
If by some chance the economy turns around.. Pakistan can continue this arms race for as long as it wants.


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## greatone

Oscar said:


> Depends on what the objectives of the race are for each. but yes.. it is the economy that matters.
> If by some chance the* economy turns around*.. Pakistan can *continue this arms race* for as long as it wants.



That is a self refuting idea, a logical fallacy don't you agree ?

Unless you mean arms race with Afghanistan


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## SQ8

greatone said:


> That is a self refuting idea, a logical fallacy don't you agree ?
> 
> Unless you mean arms race with Afghanistan



Not exactly. The scaling of the arms race is exactly what I refer to. Pakistan needs minimum deterrence.. not a winning strategy. A survival strategy... that may cost much less than the winning strategy does for India.

The economy can thrive today and provide all the amount we need.. the issue has a lot to do with mismanagement and massive corruption than just a recession.

But then again, it is a big IF. At its current state Pakistan is NOT in so much a arms race as it is in a survival race....which it is losing fast as well. And yes, it will kill the economy too if it continues to be in its poor shape and the survival race drains it out.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

OrionHunter said:


> I believe that the Russians haven't given the go-ahead as yet because of the engines?



If they want to buy JF 17 Pakistan would get them a deal of Western engines. $ buys any thing!


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## greatone

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. The scaling of the arms race is exactly what I refer to. Pakistan needs minimum deterrence.. not a winning strategy. A survival strategy... that may cost much less than the winning strategy does for India.
> 
> The economy can thrive today and provide all the amount we need.. the issue has a lot to do with mismanagement and massive corruption than just a recession.
> 
> But then again, it is a big IF. At its current state Pakistan is NOT in so much a arms race as it is in a survival race....which it is losing fast as well. And yes, it will kill the economy too if it continues to be in its poor shape and the survival race drains it out.



Race in my understanding implies striving to better your opponent.
Perhaps arms race is not the correct phrase for what you mean.


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## SQ8

greatone said:


> Race in my understanding implies striving to better your opponent.
> Perhaps you arms race is not the correct phrase for what you mean.



Not exactly.. and yes. The race is there for arms.. but for wholly different goals when it comes to bettering your opponent.
For India it is already there but now the race is to better its ability to achieve its objectives in a conflict with Pakistan...with minimum losses and in minimum time.
For Pakistan it means to maximise India's losses and delay or subvert India's ability to achieve its objectives within a conflict.

So it still is an Arms race.. just that the track and finish line(if there is such a thing) for each is different.

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## greatone

Oscar said:


> Not exactly.. and yes. The race is there for arms.. but for wholly different goals when it comes to bettering your opponent.
> For India it is already there but now the race is to better its ability to achieve its objectives in a conflict with Pakistan...with minimum losses and in minimum time.
> For Pakistan it means to maximise India's losses and delay or subvert India's ability to achieve its objectives within a conflict.
> 
> So it still is an Arms race.. just that the track and finish line(if there is such a thing) for each is different.




Exactly my point.
Just that I wouldn't call it a race when objectives of the participants are different.
But the point is moot since you qualified your statement.


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## cirr

Hello guys and gals，this is how your future FC-31P will be built:












Fresh from 2014 Zhuhai Airshow：FC-31's titanium rear fuselage frame 3D printed.

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## SQ8

cirr said:


> Hello guys and gals，this is how your future FC-31P will be built:
> 
> View attachment 153182
> 
> 
> View attachment 153183
> 
> 
> Fresh from 2014 Zhuhai Airshow：FC-31's titanium rear fuselage frame 3D printed.



Did they bring it in the same day or was it there from the start of the show?


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## Max Pain

aliyusuf said:


> Had done that exercise many years ago ... it got changed many times by others. But good idea ... I will give a go at it again, when I have some free time.



man you should do it, is out dated, not everyone will make an account on pak def just for info on PAF, 
you should give it a priority.we all will benefit from it.


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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Going back to Clinton----he was just toying with Nawaz-----the supposed offer of F16's was nothing---. Bill was arrogant---remember he would not shake hands with Musharraf the first time he stopped by in Pakistan----.
> 
> Nawaz never had the technique to deal from a position of strength----. By putting restriction on capital leaving Pakistan---he had already put himself and the country in a very weak position---a position he could not negotiate from----.
> 
> Now if there were no restrictions and expats had filled the coffers with 5 billion plus dollars---Nawaz had a position to deal from strength-----.
> 
> But---again----you guys are forgetting something----these nucs are our security----. See what happened to Libya---Iraq---Syria---and on top of that Russia----cold war ended and the Russia was dumped----.
> 
> Don't second guess about the F 16 or F 15 deal---if we could trade our nucs for them---if anything you want to second guess or want to HANG SOMEONE----it is the chief of Pakistan air force during 2002 - 2005 ---if it was not for the TRAITORS OF PAF ---- we would not have had these issues.


Blaming every ill on the PAF is a childish approach and would not cut grass in any historical/ strategic circle. In fact I challenge you that if you sat in any strategic circle you would be mauled very badly.
Having said that I agree that Nawaz's move to block foreign currency accounts was extremely foolish and totally devoid of any logic. But this is what you expect from a fool with nothing but paya on his head and a bunch of crooks surrounding him. Incidentally nearly 500 million$ were transferred out that very night after kidnapping some bank managers.
At the expense of sounding like a teacher it is not as simple as PAF asking for some money for a platform and getting its shopping bag out and walking to the nearest wallmart to place an order. Your request has to go through the procurement section which sends a summary to the PM. The PM nèeds to approve it before you can place the order. If your coffers are empty no amount of cajolement will get you a positive response. Point in case the need to shore up on 16s. The easiest source is US and tye best way would be to say we buy 18 52s if you give us 2 squadrons of older 32/42 to MLU. Seems nice but do you have the resources to sustain the expenditure. Another point to note! you may have the money but the resource refuses to sell you the product you want to buy. Note that your enquiry for Griffin was politely refused. You evaluated the Rafale and felt it was unaffordable. The 16s were not available and the chinese did not have anything to sell either. The red bear was not ready to be your friend. What do you do. You may respond that the M2K were available but the assembly line was close to shutting down and you had already evaluated it many times and found it lacking. The deal was just not there.
So yes PAF is not without its faults and idiocies and yes the M2K BUY in the early 90s may have shut all the avenues for the Indians but it did not happen that way and the rest is history. 
araz


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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.
> 
> world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions).
> even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish)
> 
> still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones


Irfan.
I dont think it was as simple as that. If you had not done so they would not have given you jack till you had agreed to an international inspection and complete roll back of the whole programme. I dont think the fools in command had the balls to stand upto international pressure. Plus you would have had your erstwhile neighbour poking you in 2002. I think it was thought to be the best strategy to stand up and be counted as a nuclear nation once and for all
Araz

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> Blaming every ill on the PAF is a childish approach and would not cut grass in any historical/ strategic circle. In fact I challenge you that if you sat in any strategic circle you would be mauled very badly.
> Having said that I agree that Nawaz's move to block foreign currency accounts was extremely foolish and totally devoid of any logic. But this is what you expect from a fool with nothing but paya on his head and a bunch of crooks surrounding him. Incidentally nearly 500 million$ were transferred out that very night after kidnapping some bank managers.
> +



Sir,

Please---I am a man---a middle aged at that----plz address me as such---. Regardless of what a man says and regardless of what his approach is----you never address it as childish---at least in America----in the last 30 plus years---no American has ever stated that to me----white black brown or yellow----but paks make it a habbit---.

I never make such a comment to even my 12 year old----.

As for mauling me----this old dad was the only one stating that how much time it would take paf to integrate the JF 17----close to 10 years---and everyone else was in the 1 year to 2 years mode----.

I don't mind a mauling---but isn't paf the only agency---that in time of war was negligent to have 3 to 4 of its most expensive assets destroyed due to lack of security. Enough said---hehn.

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## Ray_of_Hope

OrionHunter said:


> I believe that the Russians haven't given the go-ahead as yet because of the engines?


If that was the case,then pakistan would not have gone for the export of JFT.But pakistan did,so thats not the case

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## Last Samuri

Thunder has been exported ??????

Where to who.m ???????


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## Ultima Thule

Last Samuri said:


> Thunder has been exported ??????
> 
> Where to who.m ???????


to none,although oders from Azerbaijan 24, Egypt 12 to16 and Zimbabwe 12 already placed.


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## The SC

FC-31 v2.0

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Please---I am a man---a middle aged at that----plz address me as such---. Regardless of what a man says and regardless of what his approach is----you never address it as childish---at least in America----in the last 30 plus years---no American has ever stated that to me----white black brown or yellow----but paks make it a habbit---.
> 
> I never make such a comment to even my 12 year old----.
> 
> As for mauling me----this old dad was the only one stating that how much time it would take paf to integrate the JF 17----close to 10 years---and everyone else was in the 1 year to 2 years mode----.
> 
> I don't mind a mauling---but isn't paf the only agency---that in time of war was negligent to have 3 to 4 of its most expensive assets destroyed due to lack of security. Enough said---hehn.


As to respect it is earned and not demanded. Where I have liked and agreed with your post I have duly acknowledged it and to be fair so have you.So no use of ranting. We are more or less the same age so lets get on with it.
I have never said that PAF is the best a gift from Allah SWT. It has many faults and many facets of neglect and corruption which come down to gross neglect. However the impression I get from your post is that PAF is the root of all the ills facing Pakistan. The things that you blatantly ignore is the procurement process and multiple parties and vested interests within the government cadre trying to help their paymasters. The whole system is corrupt to the core and singling a scapegoat out 8s what I object to.
As to PAF Losses the PN was blatantly neglectful when the orions were fried. However the Erieyes were in their hangar when a grenade was fired through the door. The US has also lost assetts in Afghanistan due to guerrilla warfare. Do you think they were neglectful as well. Our war and its reasons are very complex and tax the loyalties of the masses in general. This is what has been played against the Forces again and again. Yes we have suffered a huge loss but name a war in which there were no losses to any 0f the parties. 
Produce a balanced post it will be respected produce a bad one it will be criticized . this is the nature of this game. This is how it happens. live with it.
Araz

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## nomi007

*Pakistani delegation taking info about fc-31*

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## nomi007

why we are getting *fc-1*
paf need to consider this
beast

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## aqdus

yes i agree with brother nomi007 that this beast is just awesome but it should be considered as heavy while j-31 is medium one and fc-1 is light. so it should act more like a bomber while fc-1 and j-31 should be our frontline fighters.

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## AsianLion

nomi007 said:


> why we are getting *fc-1*
> paf need to consider this
> beast
> View attachment 154094




J-20 big size, looks more like a Bomber than a Multi-role capability of J-31.


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## aqdus

1 squadron of these heavies can take down any thing for us. Our enemies will never "WHAT HIT THEM"


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## aqdus

1 squadron of these heavies can take down any thing for us. Our enemies will never know "WHAT HIT THEM"

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## aqdus

So can anybody tell me in which year we are expecting this birds (j-31 and j-20) in our skies.


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## Syed Hussain

AsianUnion said:


> J-20 big size, looks more like a Bomber than a Multi-role capability of J-31.


Actually J-20 fits more into the "multi-role" term. J-31 don't have enough internal space to carry even a typical A2A weapons which for example will be 4 PL-12's & 2 PL-5's(it can carry only 4 AAM's). & J-31's internal apace is also not suitable for bigger A2G munitions. In J-20 you have non of these shortcomings & plus it has "double the range" comparing to J-31.


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## AsianLion

Syed Hussain said:


> Actually J-20 fits more into the "multi-role" term. J-31 don't have enough internal space to carry even a typical A2A weapons which for example will be 4 PL-12's & 2 PL-5's(it can carry only 4 AAM's). & J-31's internal apace is also not suitable for bigger A2G munitions. In J-20 you have non of these shortcomings & plus it has "double the range" comparing to J-31.




As per China, J-20 is more fighter bomber, have u seen the massive size of the aircraft its like two J10s, hence very easy to detect and locked on, it has more range and weapons space, but not an ideal platform for dogfights, for which u need low radar feasibility and better avionics sensors with increased speed.

We donot need so many missiles in our FC-31 P, limited number but definitely more than JF-17 will suffice, the best for defending Pak Skies.

Have u ever wondered y most modern world air forces 'prefer' to have small sized or medium sized aircrafts. Even the F-22 is smaller than J-20. it is overall capability and efficiency of aircrafts, notice Russian fighters are big and hence larges RCS and long turnaround times. The Russian big fighters have lost more in numbers, as compared to western or american jets of medium and small size, which hardly any shot down.


J-31 / FC-31 P fits the PAF bill perfectly as smaller size, its budgeted requirements, stealth qualities, fuel consumption, low maintenance, mission requirements and similarity to JF-17 as a new upgrade.


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## Syed Hussain

AsianUnion said:


> As per China J-20 is more fighter bomber, have u seen the massive size of the aircraft its like two J10s, hence very easy to detect and short down, it has range and weapons space, but not an ideal platform for dogfights, for which u need low radar feasibility and better avionics sensors with increased speed.
> 
> We donot need so many missiles in our FC-31 P, limited number but definitely more than JF-17 will suffice, the best.
> 
> Have u ever wondered y most modern world air forces prefer have small sized or medium sized aircrafts. Even the F-22 is smaller than J-20. it is overall capability of aircrafts, notice Russian fighters are big and hence larges rcs for missiles to lock and shoot. The Russian big fighters have lost more in numbers, as compared to western or american jets of medium and small size.
> 
> 
> J-31 / FC-31 P fits the PAF bill perfectly, its budget requirements, fuel consumption, low maintenance, mission requirements and similarity to JF-17 as a new upgrade.


For your kind information(which you should verify from Chinese sources instead of self speculations) J-20's initial role will be of a pure air supremacy fighter for countering the threats of western 5th gen fighters & keeping the Chinese "shores" safe, multirole capabilities will be added in later variants. & As per Chinese sources it's more stealthy+maneuverable than J-31. J-31 was dropped by PLAAF because it wasn't "good enough" for them so Shenyang decided to carry it on it's own as an "export product" just like JF-17 which was never inducted by China.
Bigger size is the + point of J-20, & you should read about the testing reports by US Air Force stating that in simulations the F-22's were able to penetrate Chinese air space & come back successfully but wouldn't be able to make it back to stations because of low fuel capacity which is because of "lower size"...!
Money is the only problem We have otherwise there is no comparison at all between the two aircrafts.


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## Syed Hussain

AsianUnion said:


> similarity to JF-17 as a new upgrade.


?????????????????


----------



## AsianLion

aqdus said:


> So can anybody tell me in which year we are expecting this birds (j-31 and j-20) in our skies.




No J-20. J-31 / FC-31 P ideal size aircraft will be around 2020 timeline in 2 squadrons, when its fully developed into 5th generation capabilities.

PAF has already joined with J-31 developments updates from now in Shenyang, in its formative years.



Syed Hussain said:


> ?????????????????




Hint Engine, similarity! whoop whoop!

Kinda similar shape not exactly too much, but JF17 Block 3/4 will better have similarity to J-31s...unlike J-20.


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## Syed Hussain

It's just the engine, nothing else at all.


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## Syed Hussain

Just one advice, always read Chinese sources for info on Chinese stuff.


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## AsianLion

Syed Hussain said:


> As per Chinese sources it's more stealthy+maneuverable than J-31. J-31 was dropped by PLAAF because it wasn't "good enough" for them so Shenyang decided to carry it on it's own as an "export product" just like JF-17 which was never inducted by China.
> 
> Bigger size is the + point of J-20, & you should read about the testing reports by US Air Force stating that in simulations the F-22's were able to penetrate Chinese air space & come back successfully but wouldn't be able to make it back to stations because of low fuel capacity which is because of "lower size"...!
> 
> Money is the only problem We have otherwise there is no comparison at all between the two aircrafts.




Only real reason J-20 was prefered over J-31 by PLAAF is the that J-31 is small as it cannot cover the range of all china borders as do J-20. While for ur information J-31 is actively funded as a seed development by PLA and there are reports that J-31 navalised will be used on aircraft variants.

Its crazy to say while Shenyang J-6 and Chengdu J-7 China inducted in its own airforce, it exported to Pakistan as well in the shape of PAF F-6, and F-7. Do you know that?

J-20 does not fit PAF bill simply PAF has a smaller country to defend, then the long length-breath, big size of Chinese borders, and secondly J-20 is way to above PAF budget to afford.

Read this, J-20 as a bomber or a true air-superiority supersonic fighter: Stealth Fighter or Bomber? | The Diplomat

Only Shenyang J31....that is customised Pak Fc-31 fits PAF bill.


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## araz

Syed Hussain said:


> Actually J-20 fits more into the "multi-role" term. J-31 don't have enough internal space to carry even a typical A2A weapons which for example will be 4 PL-12's & 2 PL-5's(it can carry only 4 AAM's). & J-31's internal apace is also not suitable for bigger A2G munitions. In J-20 you have non of these shortcomings & plus it has "double the range" comparing to J-31.


I don't think J20 will be up for sale. Even if the Chinese agree to a sale it would be prohibitive cost wise.Also time wise you will probably have to wait at least a decade before getting any of the 5th generation platforms. So at best the talk is in preliminary stages. The chinese have a habit of surprising us and don't think these are the only 2 platforms they will churn out. So lets just wait and see what happens.
Araz

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## aqdus

AsianUnion said:


> As per China, J-20 is more fighter bomber, have u seen the massive size of the aircraft its like two J10s, hence very easy to detect and locked on, it has more range and weapons space, but not an ideal platform for dogfights, for which u need low radar feasibility and better avionics sensors with increased speed.
> 
> We donot need so many missiles in our FC-31 P, limited number but definitely more than JF-17 will suffice, the best for defending Pak Skies.
> 
> Have u ever wondered y most modern world air forces 'prefer' to have small sized or medium sized aircrafts. Even the F-22 is smaller than J-20. it is overall capability and efficiency of aircrafts, notice Russian fighters are big and hence larges RCS and long turnaround times. The Russian big fighters have lost more in numbers, as compared to western or american jets of medium and small size, which hardly any shot down.
> 
> 
> J-31 / FC-31 P fits the PAF bill perfectly as smaller size, its budgeted requirements, stealth qualities, fuel consumption, low maintenance, mission requirements and similarity to JF-17 as a new upgrade.



ok if China need j-20 because of its size its ok. But one thing that cross my mind is that is Pakistan going to play as defender for ever are we never going to respond to any threat made by our enemy. if yes than we should stick with just j-20 but if no than we have to get both j-20 and j-31 only in that way we can give answer to threats like india or any other by taking these beasts deep into our enemy's territory.


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## aqdus

araz said:


> I don't think J20 will be up for sale. Even if the Chinese agree to a sale it would be prohibitive cost wise.Also time wise you will probably have to wait at least a decade before getting any of the 5th generation platforms. So at best the talk is in preliminary stages. The chinese have a habit of surprising us and don't think these are the only 2 platforms they will churn out. So lets just wait and see what happens.
> Araz



yes you are right in the way you said about cost that we cant afford. But China will not have any issue with selling J-20 to Pakistan as it is shown by their attitude as PAF is only airforce in the world which is allowed to take closer look at j-20 but its all what i guess but future is never far we will see what will happens to our economy and these projects. All we can do is just hope for the best.


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## Syed Hussain

araz said:


> I don't think J20 will be up for sale. Even if the Chinese agree to a sale it would be prohibitive cost wise.Also time wise you will probably have to wait at least a decade before getting any of the 5th generation platforms. So at best the talk is in preliminary stages. The chinese have a habit of surprising us and don't think these are the only 2 platforms they will churn out. So lets just wait and see what happens.
> Araz


I don't know much but I heard from this very forum that Chinese officials agreed on J-20 if Pak was willing. J-20 may come with cost of around 80 million per unit & that's indeed prohibitive, for PAF has no choice but to always go for "cheap price tag". But there won't be much difference of cost between both fighters. So if going for a 5th gen fighter has been decided than better be it J-20 than under performing J-31.


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## Basel

It is surprising that CAC has not offered any 5th gen Solution to PAF or PAF have not announced it as they may be evaluating it? PAF has very close working relationship with CAC since inception of JF-17 project and it is said in media that PAF continuously posted few of its staff on CAC, whereas PAF don't have much working relationship with SAC which is building J-31.


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## araz

aqdus said:


> yes you are right in the way you said about cost that we cant afford. But China will not have any issue with selling J-20 to Pakistan as it is shown by their attitude as PAF is only airforce in the world which is allowed to take closer look at j-20 but its all what i guess but future is never far we will see what will happens to our economy and these projects. All we can do is just hope for the best.


My friend.
China has repeatedly refused to let you have looks at systems when it is against their national interests. For instance they did not allow you to see the Quing submarine. Also PAF was initially not allowed to see the J10. Every one has a project which it does not want to share with anyone else. the US has F22 and for China it is J20.


aqdus said:


> yes you are right in the way you said about cost that we cant afford. But China will not have any issue with selling J-20 to Pakistan as it is shown by their attitude as PAF is only airforce in the world which is allowed to take closer look at j-20 but its all what i guess but future is never far we will see what will happens to our economy and these projects. All we can do is just hope for the best.


The J20 is currently not for sale to any nation like the F22 is not for anyone else. People who say J20 can be sold to PAF need to prove their statements.


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## Last Samuri

j20 is,the premiere fighter of plaaf and not availablec.for export. just like f22 raptor of usa wil not be exported the j20 of china will not be exported to keep their best technology away from enemies.

the j31,or fc31,is a poor mans fifth generation fighter.and will be exported just like f35 lightening of USA.

The j31 will be the only fifth generation fighter without tvc engines

Too keep it cheap


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## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan hankers after China's J-31 stealth fighter*

China's J-31 fifth-generation stealth fighter jet, which will be fitted with a made-in-China engine, is being highly sought after by Pakistan, reports the state-run China News Service.

The J-31, also known as "Gyrfalcon" or Falcon Hawk by some military enthusiasts, is a twin-engine, mid-size fighter currently under development by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The jet revealed some new additions last week at the 10th Zhuhai Airshow in southern China's Guangdong province, displaying a metallic film designed to improve stealth and prevent radar waves from penetrating the inside of the cockpit.

The plane's chief designer, Sun Cong, also told reporters that the J-31 won't just have a "made in China" exterior, but will also have a "Chinese heart," indicating that the aircraft's engine will also be domestically developed.

It is believed that the J-31 matches a strong need for fifth-generation fighters by Pakistan, which is struggling to find an aircraft to go up against the Russian-developed T-50 fifth-generation fighter currently being modified for export to part-financier India.

Of the current fifth-generation fighters, the only one being exported on a wide scale is the F-35 Lightning II, for which the costs of development are being shared by NATO members or close US allies. The US-made F-22 Raptor and Chinese-made J-20 do not appear to be being prepared for export at this stage.

*The smaller J-31 is not necessarily perfect for Pakistan because of its lower fuel capability and narrower battle radius, but its agility and strong stealth capabilities are considered to be strong positives. *The most attractive aspect of the jet, however, is its price, which should be well below that of the F-35, expected to cost between US$150 million to US$300 million depending on the model.

The most advanced fighter jet being exported by China right now is the JF-17 Thunder, a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. Given that it is not particularly cheap and its capabilities are arguably no stronger than upgraded secondhand versions of the F-16, the JF-17 has so far had difficulty locating buyers apart from the Pakistan Air Force.

Pakistan hankers after China's J-31 stealth fighter｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

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## Syed Hussain

araz said:


> My friend.
> China has repeatedly refused to let you have looks at systems when it is against their national interests. For instance they did not allow you to see the Quing submarine. Also PAF was initially not allowed to see the J10. Every one has a project which it does not want to share with anyone else. the US has F22 and for China it is J20.
> 
> The J20 is currently not for sale to any nation like the F22 is not for anyone else. People who say J20 can be sold to PAF need to prove their statements.



Pakistani pilots are working in PLAAF on deputation where they are flying both Chinese & Russian made Flankers along with J-10's & training Cino pilots as well...& it's going on since last two decades.
& Quing class submarines are under construction to be delivered to Pak.... & I do not speak on the basis of "web links" but "ground links"...!

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## farhan_9909

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has expressed interest in procuring fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 from China.

*Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told Dawn on Friday the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities.*

*It is for the first time that a senior government functionary has confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft — an issue that has been a subject of speculation in defence circles since the 10th edition of the Zhuhai Air Show (China) held earlier this month, when the aircraft was unveiled.*

The Jane’s Defence Weekly had quoted an unnamed Pakistani official as saying that the PAF was holding talks with China for the purchase of 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 fighter planes and that discussions had gone beyond initial inquiries.

The FC-31 is being developed by China primarily for the export market. Chinese officials claim that several countries have expressed interest in the aircraft believed to be comparable to US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

A prototype of the aircraft, designated as J-31, has been flown by the Chinese aircraft research and development firm Shenyang Aviation Company for a couple of years now.

What particularly interests the PAF is that FC-31 prototype (J-31) and JF-17 use the same Russian Klimov RD-93 engines.

Pakistan is increasingly relying on China as a reliable source for its defence procurements.

Mr Hussain said that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter Z-10.

China and Pakistan had earlier co-produced JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan has been eagerly trying to market this fighter aircraft.

*“We have nearly confirmed orders from seven countries for JF-17,” Mr Hussain said.*

Pakistan, which is at present producing Block-2 of JF-17 at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, is eyeing orders from countries in the Middle East and Africa.

“The PAF has a requirement of 250 aircraft, but now we have decided that we’ll sell some of the JF-17 Block-2 to international buyers besides fulfilling our local demand,” the minister said.

The minister sounded upbeat about the upcoming four-day defence exhibition IDEAS 2014 beginning in Karachi on Dec 1.

Some 175 companies, including 34 local firms, are participating in the international event this year.

Mr Hussain said a few MoUs and agreements on joint ventures were expected to be signed during the exhibition, but no orders were expected at the event.

“The basic spirit behind the exhibition is to increase interaction with defence industry (officials) of other countries and provide exposure to our own industry,” he said.

_Published in Dawn, November 22th, 2014

PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
_

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## farhan_9909

First ever official confirmation


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## datalibdaz

Looks like we will be inducting FC 31 the same time when our neighbour will be inducting the rafale

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## farhan_9909

datalibdaz said:


> Looks like we will be inducting FC 31 the same time when our neighbour will be inducting the rafale



i still remember when the deal was suppose to be signed in 2012,they initial delivery schedule was set at 2018,considering that the deal will be signed in 2015-16 so expect the delivery schedule to begin from 2021-22 or the complete delivery by 2028-29

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## dil_dil

Isn't FC31 downgraded version of China 5th gen aircraft? I mean considiring India will have advance western aircrafts while Pak will get downgraded version of 5th gen Chinese aircraft? :/

Unless China can make exception for Pakistan and provide same aircraft as they will use themselves.


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## datalibdaz

farhan_9909 said:


> i still remember when the deal was suppose to be signed in 2012,they initial delivery schedule was set at 2018,considering that the deal will be signed in 2015-16 so expect the delivery schedule to begin from 2021-22 or the complete delivery by 2028-29



You never know, don't underestimate the pace with which Chinese are developing and inducting jets.

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## datalibdaz

oye_natta said:


> Isn't FC31 downgraded version of China 5th gen aircraft? I mean considiring India will have advance western aircrafts while Pak will get downgraded version of 5th gen Chinese aircraft? :/
> 
> Unless China can make exception for Pakistan and provide same aircraft as they will use themselves.



How you know FC31 is downgraded when there is no info released yet. Stop this verbal diarrhea and take some pills.

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## fatman17

FC-31 needs plenty of development work. it will be a while before it is inducted (if ever) into the PAF. the airforce has its hands full on the JFT Program for the next 2-4 years plus lobbying the US for surplus F-16s (at least another 18-36).

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## dil_dil

datalibdaz said:


> How you know FC31 is downgraded when there is no info released yet. Stop this verbal diarrhea and take some pills.



Read about FC31 being export variant which basically mean downgraded version of proper 5th gen aircraft.


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## fatman17

before we jump up and down....remember the J-10 deal....an MoU was signed but in the end the price of the deal (USD1.5B) and the russian engine issues, fizzled the deal. so easy does it.

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## Chinese-Dragon

farhan_9909 said:


> i still remember when the deal was suppose to be signed in 2012,they initial delivery schedule was set at 2018,considering that the deal will be signed in 2015-16 so expect the delivery schedule to begin from 2021-22 or the complete delivery by 2028-29



India will get complete delivery of the Rafale by 2029? 

Man we will be on seriously advanced stealth fighters by then. The J-20 alone is supposed to enter operational service in 2017, which is pretty damn close. Only Heaven knows what we will have by 2029.

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## datalibdaz

fatman17 said:


> before we jump up and down....remember the J-10 deal....an MoU was signed but in the end the price of the deal (USD1.5B) and the russian engine issues, fizzled the deal. so easy does it.



Agreed. PAF do plan to induct 5th Gen fighter jets and their is no better choice other than FC31. F35 seems a distant dream.

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## farhan_9909

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India will get complete delivery of the Rafale by 2029?
> 
> Man we will be on seriously advanced stealth fighters by then. The J-20 alone is supposed to enter operational service in 2017, which is pretty damn close. Only Heaven knows what we will have by 2029.



The first time i heard about MRCA,i was a in 8th grade in 2007,i am now close to graduation and they have not even signed the deal yet.So it is india,it may even surpass the 2029 mark

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## tarrar

PAF needs J31 to strengthen PAF even more.

Dead Mirages are a huge concern now & they need to be replaced by J10B, PAF should not drop J10B.

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## NKVD

farhan_9909 said:


> i still remember when the deal was suppose to be signed in 2012,they initial delivery schedule was set at 2018,considering that the deal will be signed in 2015-16 so expect the delivery schedule to begin from 2021-22 or the complete delivery by 2028-29


Delivery start from 2017 itself remember first squadrons are directly imported from France. Which already have manufacturing facilities for rafale since past decade there is also an option of importing all aircraft directly from France by then it will deliver all aircraft by 2024.indian nuclear Ac will be out by 2020 and options of importing F-35 will be increased.india need not worry for the future it's economy is way to big to counter any threat from pakistan.


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## he-man

Well first let it complete trials people.
It will not be done for 4-5 years imho.


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## Screambowl

so Pakistan will have stealth fighter before we Indians acquire , some time baniya giri is too time consuming.

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## Edevelop

> Mr Hussain said that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter Z-10.




It will be nice to see a fleet of Cobra (American), MI-35 (Russian) , and Z-10 (Chinese)


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## Nitin Goyal

they also wanted to buy j10 .. what happened to that... they are basically loose mouth.


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## SpArK

oye_natta said:


> Read about FC31 being export variant which basically mean downgraded version of proper 5th gen aircraft.



FC-31 if ever exported to Pakistan wont be a downgraded one. It will be with same capabilities of China or will have provisions of integrating Pakistan's choices of weaponry and avionics.

Can you be clear on what you actually meant by downgraded?

Weapons, Avionics, EW suite, Engine, Radar...or the airframe itself???

Be specific.

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## he-man

SpArK said:


> FC-31 if ever exported to Pakistan wont be a downgraded one. It will be with same capabilities of China or will have provisions of integrating Pakistan's choices of weaponry and avionics.
> 
> Can you be clear on what you actually meant by downgraded?
> 
> Weapons, Avionics, EW suite, Engine, Radar...or the airframe itself???
> 
> Be specific.



No one knows whats inside it at the moment.
0 analysis.

But it will be huge jump over jf-17 and even f-16,thats a given.
Its another matter how pakistan finances it though.


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## SpArK

he-man said:


> No one knows whats inside it at the moment.
> 0 analysis.
> 
> But it will be huge jump over jf-17 and even f-16,thats a given.
> Its another matter how pakistan finances it though.



I think at present PAF is having an idea of having 2 squadrons of fighters. ( 40+).

With generous soft loan and usage of domestic facilities on a deal based on mutual interest it can be done time bound.

Pakistan is not broke, they can afford it over a period of time with some help from China .

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## graphican

fatman17 said:


> before we jump up and down....remember the J-10 deal....an MoU was signed but in the end the price of the deal (USD1.5B) and the russian engine issues, fizzled the deal. so easy does it.



Russians are increasing their cooperation with Pakistan. We just had a deal of Mi-35 helicopters with them and find engine issues (if there were any) getting resolved and perhaps a bit more than that. It will be unjust if we term this deal as a pure business deal and ignore the strategic dimensions associated with it. 

J-10s considered only a little better than improved JF-17s we will have. A major and understandable reason of its cancellation (which I still doubt) is not supply of engines but relatively small gain vs potential cost. As per available news, Russia has already offered better engines than JF-17s are using.

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## NKVD

he-man said:


> No one knows whats inside it at the moment.
> 0 analysis.
> 
> But it will be huge jump over jf-17 and even f-16,thats a given.
> Its another matter how pakistan finances it though.


Another matter of fun here is PAF actually downgraded it's capabilities from premier western tech like F-16 to Chinese rip-offs as their primary combat aircraft it's a matter of pity.


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## Sinnerman108

SpArK said:


> I think at present PAF is having an idea of having 2 squadrons of fighters. ( 40+).
> 
> With generous soft loan and usage of domestic facilities on a deal based on mutual interest it can be done time bound.
> 
> Pakistan is not broke, they can afford it over a period of time with some help from China .



fund it via jf17 sales revenue.

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## Rain

he-man said:


> No one knows whats inside it at the moment.
> 0 analysis.
> 
> But it will be huge jump over jf-17 and even f-16,thats a given.
> Its another matter how pakistan finances it though.


First part is logical and good.
About second part. we will finance it with Indian Money.

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## he-man

NKVD said:


> Another matter of fun here is PAF actually downgraded it's capabilities from premier western tech like F-16 to Chinese rip-offs as their primary combat aircraft it's a matter of pity.



No...............f-16 block 40-52 is not that good in 2014 anymore.Plus its future development is nil with 0 possibility of aesa as usa will not allow it.

So jf-17 and j-31 are actually good options


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## he-man

SpArK said:


> I think at present PAF is having an idea of having 2 squadrons of fighters. ( 40+).
> 
> With generous soft loan and usage of domestic facilities on a deal based on mutual interest it can be done time bound.
> 
> Pakistan is not broke, they can afford it over a period of time with some help from China .



Depends if IMF allows them to spend so much when they have taken a loan from them.
Its like india trying to buy su-27/30 in 1991 financial crisis.Not a good time imho.

Also the main concern will be maintainance cost and of course the USA FACTOR with chances of aid significantly reducing.

But i do believe that as we will be getting pakfa and rafale,pakistan has a good case of getting j-31,they cannot be found sleeping here.


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## Thorough Pro

good for you then, no need to worry about our downgraded equipment, while you keep waiting for another 10 years for new upgrades to come before you even sign the deal.



oye_natta said:


> Isn't FC31 downgraded version of China 5th gen aircraft? I mean considiring India will have advance western aircrafts while Pak will get downgraded version of 5th gen Chinese aircraft? :/
> 
> Unless China can make exception for Pakistan and provide same aircraft as they will use themselves.

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## HAIDER

Don t understand what type of stealth fighter with smoky engine.....Saw demo leave smoke trail .....its fuel or engine.....


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## datalibdaz

farhan_9909 said:


> The first time i heard about MRCA,i was a in 8th grade in 2007,i am now close to graduation and they have not even signed the deal yet.So it is india,it may even surpass the 2029 mark



Or maybe they dont have the cash for MRCA at all and bluffing everyone so they stay away from Pakistan. It doesn't take 8 years only to sign an agreement. Look at their other purchases, all those in acceptable within their range, they signed it within the time frame.

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## MastanKhan

Nitin Goyal said:


> they also wanted to buy j10 .. what happened to that... they are basically loose mouth.



Hi,

J10 B 's are available---a sqdrn strength was available to us for immediate delivery---but then we got extra F16's from Jordan----and as more F 16 's become available---the need for the J 10 B will diminish.

Now as for the J 31----PAF will have to run a parallel program for acquiring this aircraft.

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## he-man

HAIDER said:


> Don t understand what type of stealth fighter with smoky engine.....Saw demo leave smoke trail .....its fuel or engine.....



Smoky engine has nothing to do with stealth.
Its smoky as it uses rd-93 engine which like almost all rd series is smoky.


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## BoQ77

In USA, Gen. Asim Saleem Bajwa stated that Pak has no plan to buy FC-31


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## Ali Q

Not gonna happen within next 4-8 years...until the platform matures. And we have some sales going with JFT. Thus we wont have JFT development on our heads without revenue...more resources to spend on a third project. And a ready to buy and operate 5th gen platform available.


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## zaid butt

good news at all
TOT and Chinese engine will be better


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## he-man

zaid butt said:


> good news at all
> TOT and Chinese engine will be better



No chinese engine won't be better than rd-93 at least for a while in lifespan.
RD-33/93 is rated at 4000 hours compared to estimate of 3000 hours that chinese members are giving for ws series.

Truth needs to be seen though.

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## he-man

datalibdaz said:


> Or maybe they dont have the cash for MRCA at all and bluffing everyone so they stay away from Pakistan. It doesn't take 8 years only to sign an agreement. Look at their other purchases, all those in acceptable within their range, they signed it within the time frame.



India has reserves>300billion.
The bone of contention is tot agreement and too many projects at the same time.

But rest assured winter is coming


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## Max Pain

NKVD said:


> Another matter of fun here is PAF actually downgraded it's capabilities from premier western tech like F-16 to Chinese rip-offs as their primary combat aircraft it's a matter of pity.



that was all due to the embargo, we opted for cheap alternatives, but youre right, 40 odd Mirage 2000 or Saab JAS-39 Gripen wouldve been much better than those hundreds of F-7's. back then we began giving priority to quantity over quality.
but thank God things began changing since the last decade.

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## Hurter

Please make it correct. F-31 is not a 4th gen. Its 5th.


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## Ek pandran

Let c


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

Islamabad: Pakistan plans to buy the fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft from China to boost its defence capability, according to a media report on Saturday.

The matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities, Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain was quoted as saying by the Dawn newspaper.

"It is for the first time that a senior government functionary has confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft ? an issue that has been a subject of speculation in defence circles since the 10th edition of the Zhuhai Air Show (China) held earlier this month, when the aircraft was unveiled," the paper reported.

The Jane's Defence Weekly also quoted an unnamed Pakistani official as saying that the Pakistan Air Force was in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 fighters.

FC-31 being developed by China primarily for the export market and reportedly several countries are interested in the aircraft believed to be comparable to US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

A prototype of the aircraft, designated as J-31, has been flown by the Chinese aircraft research and development firm Shenyang Aviation Company for a couple of years now.

What particularly interests the PAF is that FC-31 prototype (J-31) and JF-17 use the same Russian Klimov RD-93 engines.

Pakistan is increasingly relying on China as a reliable source for its defence procurements.

Hussain said that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter Z-10.

China and Pakistan had earlier co-produced JF-17 Thunder.

Pakistan has been eagerly trying to market this fighter aircraft.

"We have nearly confirmed orders from seven countries for JF-17," Hussain said.

Pakistan, which is at present producing Block-2 of JF-17 at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, is eyeing orders from countries in the Middle East and Africa.

"The PAF has a requirement of 250 aircraft, but now we have decided that we'll sell some of the JF-17 Block-2 to international buyers besides fulfilling our local demand," the minister said.

Pakistan plans to buy stealth fighter aircraft from China | Zee News

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## zaid butt

he-man said:


> No chinese engine won't be better than rd-93 at least for a while in lifespan.
> RD-33/93 is rated at 4000 hours compared to estimate of 3000 hours that chinese members are giving for ws series.
> 
> Truth needs to be seen though.


chinese engines are better than rd 93
ENGINES:
Chinese Russian Percentage
WS13 RD-93 Difference
Length (m): 4.15 4.25 -2.35%
Diameter (m): 1.02 1.04 -1.92%
Weight (kg): 1135 1055 +7.58%
Thrust (afterburning, kN): 86.37 81.3 +6.24%
Thrust (dry, kN): 56.75 50 +13.50%
Bypass ratio: 0.57 0.49 +16.33%


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## zaid butt

already on pdf


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## Mav3rick

*PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister*

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has expressed interest in procuring fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 from China.

Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told Dawn on Friday the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities.

It is for the first time that a senior government functionary has confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft — an issue that has been a subject of speculation in defence circles since the 10th edition of the Zhuhai Air Show (China) held earlier this month, when the aircraft was unveiled.

The Jane’s Defence Weekly had quoted an unnamed Pakistani official as saying that the PAF was holding talks with China for the purchase of 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 fighter planes and that discussions had gone beyond initial inquiries.

The FC-31 is being developed by China primarily for the export market. Chinese officials claim that several countries have expressed interest in the aircraft believed to be comparable to US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

A prototype of the aircraft, designated as J-31, has been flown by the Chinese aircraft research and development firm Shenyang Aviation Company for a couple of years now.

What particularly interests the PAF is that FC-31 prototype (J-31) and JF-17 use the same Russian Klimov RD-93 engines.

Pakistan is increasingly relying on China as a reliable source for its defence procurements.

Mr Hussain said that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter Z-10.

China and Pakistan had earlier co-produced JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan has been eagerly trying to market this fighter aircraft.

“*We have nearly confirmed orders from seven countries for JF-17*,” Mr Hussain said.

Pakistan, which is at present producing Block-2 of JF-17 at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, is eyeing orders from countries in the Middle East and Africa.

“The PAF has a requirement of 250 aircraft, but now we have decided that we’ll sell some of the JF-17 Block-2 to international buyers besides fulfilling our local demand,” the minister said.

The minister sounded upbeat about the upcoming four-day defence exhibition IDEAS 2014 beginning in Karachi on Dec 1.

Some 175 companies, including 34 local firms, are participating in the international event this year.

Mr Hussain said a few MoUs and agreements on joint ventures were expected to be signed during the exhibition, but no orders were expected at the event.

“The basic spirit behind the exhibition is to increase interaction with defence industry (officials) of other countries and provide exposure to our own industry,” he said.

_Published in Dawn, November 22th, 2014_

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## Sulman Badshah

Junaid B said:


> Please make it correct. F-31 is not a 4th gen. Its 5th.


chinese 4th gen is equal to World 5th gen ( they have different standard) 

meanwhile Chinese standards consider all 4th gen fighter as 3rd gen

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## araz

Syed Hussain said:


> Pakistani pilots are working in PLAAF on deputation where they are flying both Chinese & Russian made Flankers along with J-10's & training Cino pilots as well...& it's going on since last two decades.
> & Quing class submarines are under construction to be delivered to Pak.... & I do not speak on the basis of "web links" but "ground links"...!


 Dost 
You maybe right but I stand by my assertion that at this point in time J20 is not for sale. The news today also supports my assertion.Unlike you I have no "ground links". However to us lesser mortals who rely on the internet there is plenty of evidence to suggest that. My earlier assertions were based on previous times when the projects were mired in secrecy and therefore once better products became available they became more open. I am aware of the contingent of PAF Pilots as well as engineers on the chinese projects as well as our familiarity with the sino russian platforms. I do not know about the subs project but my understanding is that the project is somewhat different from Quing. Rest I will agree with you.

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## SQ8

Syed Hussain said:


> Pakistani pilots are working in PLAAF on deputation where they are flying both Chinese & Russian made Flankers along with J-10's & training Cino pilots as well...& it's going on since last two decades.
> & Quing class submarines are under construction to be delivered to Pak.... & I do not speak on the basis of "web links" but "ground links"...!



The above has been on the forums for quite a while.. and the submarines you talk of must have completely missed the eyes of DCNS(projects). Funny that he has no idea of Qings...and was still in negotiations with the Chinese on a Song derivative.


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## tarrar

J31 is advance but it is a 4th Generation fighter where as J/F35 to whom which the people compare with is a 5th Generation fighter. J31 uses the same engine RD93 which is the same one which JF17 is using, but the good news is China is working on an improved variant named WS-13A with 100KN of thrust for J-31 & there are rumors that WS-13A will also be used by JF17.

So though the news is official which I am very happy to hear but it will take time for J31 to develop completely.

Mean while PAF needs to work on replacing dead mirages completely with J10B, with this move PAF will get a modern fighter jet.


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## Hurter

Sulman Badshah said:


> chinese 4th gen is equal to World 5th gen ( they have different standard)
> 
> meanwhile Chinese standards consider all 4th gen fighter as 3rd gen



Ye to latest news hai


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## Syed Hussain

Oscar said:


> The above has been on the forums for quite a while.. and the submarines you talk of must have completely missed the eyes of DCNS(projects). Funny that he has no idea of Qings...and was still in negotiations with the Chinese on a Song derivative.


It's been no mare than 2 months since I joined this forum so what's been here before I don't know & care about, but in this two months I have "encountered" at least 3 "years old" members who were trying to fit WS-15 in JF-17(old can also be a fool's gold). What I know is I have bunch of friends & relatives working in all three branches of Pak defense forces in both fighting & technical categories. So much for "laptop" intellectuals like you


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## khanboy007

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has expressed interest in procuring fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 from China.

Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told Dawn on Friday the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities.

It is for the first time that a senior government functionary has confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft — an issue that has been a subject of speculation in defence circles since the 10th edition of the Zhuhai Air Show (China) held earlier this month, when the aircraft was unveiled.

The Jane’s Defence Weekly had quoted an unnamed Pakistani official as saying that the PAF was holding talks with China for the purchase of 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 fighter planes and that discussions had gone beyond initial inquiries.

The FC-31 is being developed by China primarily for the export market. Chinese officials claim that several countries have expressed interest in the aircraft believed to be comparable to US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

A prototype of the aircraft, designated as J-31, has been flown by the Chinese aircraft research and development firm Shenyang Aviation Company for a couple of years now.

What particularly interests the PAF is that FC-31 prototype (J-31) and JF-17 use the same Russian Klimov RD-93 engines.

Pakistan is increasingly relying on China as a reliable source for its defence procurements.

Mr Hussain said that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter Z-10.

China and Pakistan had earlier co-produced JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan has been eagerly trying to market this fighter aircraft.

“We have nearly confirmed orders from seven countries for JF-17,” Mr Hussain said.

Pakistan, which is at present producing Block-2 of JF-17 at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, is eyeing orders from countries in the Middle East and Africa.

“The PAF has a requirement of 250 aircraft, but now we have decided that we’ll sell some of the JF-17 Block-2 to international buyers besides fulfilling our local demand,” the minister said.

The minister sounded upbeat about the upcoming four-day defence exhibition IDEAS 2014 beginning in Karachi on Dec 1.

Some 175 companies, including 34 local firms, are participating in the international event this year.

Mr Hussain said a few MoUs and agreements on joint ventures were expected to be signed during the exhibition, but no orders were expected at the event.

“The basic spirit behind the exhibition is to increase interaction with defence industry (officials) of other countries and provide exposure to our own industry,” he said.

_Published in Dawn, November 22th, 2014_

_PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

-------------------------------------------------

_

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## he-man

Posted before.


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## A.Rafay

khanboy007 said:


> “We have nearly confirmed orders from seven countries for JF-17,” Mr Hussain said.
> 
> “The PAF has a requirement of 250 aircraft, but now we have decided that we’ll sell some of the JF-17 Block-2 to international buyers besides fulfilling our local demand,” the minister said.



This is fantastic news. I hope all those seven countries buy it. A huge success for Pakistan and China.

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## OrionHunter

> Chinese officials claim that several countries have expressed interest in the aircraft *believed to be comparable to US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.*



It's comparable to the US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter???  Now that was epic!!


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## he-man

OrionHunter said:


> It's comparable to the US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter???  Now that was epic!!



Thats height of propaganda seriously.
Even old warhorse drdo chief tyagi can learn from this troll


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## Sanchez

tarrar said:


> J31 is advance but it is a 4th Generation fighter where as J/F35 to whom which the people compare with is a 5th Generation fighter. J31 uses the same engine RD93 which is the same one which JF17 is using, but the good news is China is working on an improved variant named WS-13A with 100KN of thrust for J-31 & there are rumors that WS-13A will also be used by JF17.
> 
> So though the news is official which I am very happy to hear but it will take time for J31 to develop completely.
> 
> Mean while PAF needs to work on replacing dead mirages completely with J10B, with this move PAF will get a modern fighter jet.



RD93 is only a test engine of flying J-31 prototypes.

WS-13A (thrust/weight ratio=7.8）was developed for JF17, FC-1 as well as a UAV. A 4G engine of 9500kg class with thrust/weight ratio of 10 is under development, namely WS-17. The time frame of availability is 2015-2016 for WS-13A, and 2019-2020 for WS-17.

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## root

Awesome clever decision by PAF.

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## A.Rafay

Mi-35
Mi-28
Z-10
T-129
J-31

We want to buy a lot of weapons but we don't have enough funds.

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## Ray_of_Hope

A.Rafay said:


> Mi-35
> Mi-28
> Z-10
> T-129
> J-31
> 
> We want to buy a lot of weapons but we don't have enough funds.


We will buy only mi 35 and j31 from ur list

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## Ray_of_Hope

Do u guys have some info regarding the probable sale of 30--40 J 31`s to Pakistan
PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-wants-to-buy-chinese-stealth-aircraft-minister.345123/#ixzz3Jnm8wAqF
@Chinese-Dragon @Other chinese members


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight - dark exhaust emitting from the jet's engine indicates the engine's poor efficiency in burning fuel. : worldnews


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight - dark exhaust emitting from the jet's engine indicates the engine's poor efficiency in burning fuel. : worldnews


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## Sulman Badshah

kahonapyarhai said:


> J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight - dark exhaust emitting from the jet's engine indicates the engine's poor efficiency in burning fuel. : worldnews


RD 33 is used in prototypes ... Final version will have chinese engines 
so engine matter is pointless by now


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## Donatello

kahonapyarhai said:


> J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight - dark exhaust emitting from the jet's engine indicates the engine's poor efficiency in burning fuel. : worldnews



it's not even a full prototype.....


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## aliaselin

Basel said:


> It is surprising that CAC has not offered any 5th gen Solution to PAF or PAF have not announced it as they may be evaluating it? PAF has very close working relationship with CAC since inception of JF-17 project and it is said in media that PAF continuously posted few of its staff on CAC, whereas PAF don't have much working relationship with SAC which is building J-31.


CAC has an export version of 5th gen solution and did not get money support from AVIC as FC-31






length：15.58m, wingspan: 9m, empty load 9 ton, engine is one WS-15
Since many Pakistan officers and engineers are working in CAC, I think they know about it but 。。。no money you can do nothing

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## thrilainmanila

why does pakistan always opt for the option the chinese have rejected. for example the JF-17 is a design the Chinese aren't interested in, pakistan picks it up and takes it same with other projects like Type-98 tank, mbt-3000, F-22 frigates and now the J-31. I think the J-10 has a way better design concept then the J-31, The J-31 seems more like a failed Chinese experiment.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

aliaselin said:


> CAC has an export version of 5th gen solution and did not get money support from AVIC as FC-31
> View attachment 155361
> 
> 
> length：15.58m, wingspan: 9m, empty load 9 ton, engine is one WS-15
> Since many Pakistan officers and engineers are working in CAC, I think they know about it but 。。。no money you can do nothing


this may become JF17 block 3


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## Donatello

BoQ77 said:


> In USA, Gen. Asim Saleem Bajwa stated that Pak has no plan to buy FC-31



I find that funny, that a General would be commenting on the prospects of what the air force would want.

There could be some truth to it......it may not be FC31 since it is all speculation......what is not speculation is the natural and understood fact that PAF will go for a low RCS aircraft in the future and it would be from China.
The reason we are itching to get J-31 is that it features common engine design with our JF-17......RD93/WS13.

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## Icewolf

thrilainmanila said:


> why does pakistan always opt for the option the chinese have rejected. for example the JF-17 is a design the Chinese aren't interested in, pakistan picks it up and takes it same with other projects like Type-98 tank, mbt-3000, F-22 frigates and now the J-31. I think the J-10 has a way better design concept then the J-31, The J-31 seems more like a failed Chinese experiment.



You're right, PAF should go for 7th gen TEJAS, instead of J-31

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## thrilainmanila

Icewolf said:


> You're right, PAF should go for 7th gen TEJAS, instead of J-31


typical village mentality exists on this forum, whenever a genuine criticism is aimed against the pakistan armed forces, everyone assumes that person is an indian, first of all get you're head out of your *** and go and get a proper education you retard

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## thrilainmanila

the risks of buying this aircraft outweigh the rewards.


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## Viper0011.

thrilainmanila said:


> *Type-98 tank, mbt-3000, F-22 frigates and now the J-31. I think the J-10 has a way better design concept then the J-31, The J-31 seems more like a failed Chinese experiment*.



I follow the Chinese military development a lot. I am surprised to read your post. Either you don't know what you are talking about or have no clue about design and performance of different platforms.
1) Type 98 is slightly older concept but still not an inferior platform compared to the theater it'll be working in (India vs. Pakistan)
2) MBT 3000 is actually a much better platform. The Chinese really studied Western tank designs and incorporate a lot of design factors in it, specially the benefits of the wide body, angles, armor, etc. It's probably a couple of notches below Leopard in capability and design, but offers (on paper) pretty much everything a latest tank design does.
3) J-10 (X-Lavi) is really a 2.5-3rd generation design (goes back to 1980's and originates from Mirage with added features). With advance electronics, it is considered a 4th gen design like Mirage 2005-N, Gripen, -16 Block 40-50. So its a good platform almost on par with the typical 4th gen platforms. But its not a comparison with the J-31
4) J-31 is a Stealth platform, similar to the JSF (although inferior). The Chinese stole a lot of tech from the US so all that stuff will be added to this jet IMO. Which makes it a much credible platform. What makes you think this is a "failed" Chinese experiment when they will be selling it to a few selected nations at the initial price tag of $ 75-100 million???? That's a LOT of price for a "failed" concept!

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## thrilainmanila

orangzaib said:


> I follow the Chinese military development a lot. I am surprised to read your post. Either you don't know what you are talking about or have no clue about design and performance of different platforms.
> 1) Type 98 is slightly older concept but still not an inferior platform compared to the theater it'll be working in (India vs. Pakistan)
> 2) MBT 3000 is actually a much better platform. The Chinese really studied Western tank designs and incorporate a lot of design factors in it, specially the benefits of the wide body, angles, armor, etc. It's probably a couple of notches below Leopard in capability and design, but offers (on paper) pretty much everything a latest tank design does.
> 3) J-10 (X-Lavi) is really a 2.5-3rd generation design (goes back to 1980's and originates from Mirage with added features). With advance electronics, it is considered a 4th gen design like Mirage 2005-N, Gripen, -16 Block 40-50. So its a good platform almost on par with the typical 4th gen platforms. But its not a comparison with the J-31
> 4) J-31 is a Stealth platform, similar to the JSF (although inferior). The Chinese stole a lot of tech from the US so all that stuff will be added to this jet IMO. Which makes it a much credible platform. What makes you think this is a "failed" Chinese experiment when they will be selling it to a few selected nations at the initial price tag of $ 75-100 million???? That's a LOT of price for a "failed" concept!





orangzaib said:


> I follow the Chinese military development a lot. I am surprised to read your post. Either you don't know what you are talking about or have no clue about design and performance of different platforms.
> 1) Type 98 is slightly older concept but still not an inferior platform compared to the theater it'll be working in (India vs. Pakistan)
> 2) MBT 3000 is actually a much better platform. The Chinese really studied Western tank designs and incorporate a lot of design factors in it, specially the benefits of the wide body, angles, armor, etc. It's probably a couple of notches below Leopard in capability and design, but offers (on paper) pretty much everything a latest tank design does.
> 3) J-10 (X-Lavi) is really a 2.5-3rd generation design (goes back to 1980's and originates from Mirage with added features). With advance electronics, it is considered a 4th gen design like Mirage 2005-N, Gripen, -16 Block 40-50. So its a good platform almost on par with the typical 4th gen platforms. But its not a comparison with the J-31
> 4) J-31 is a Stealth platform, similar to the JSF (although inferior). The Chinese stole a lot of tech from the US so all that stuff will be added to this jet IMO. Which makes it a much credible platform. What makes you think this is a "failed" Chinese experiment when they will be selling it to a few selected nations at the initial price tag of $ 75-100 million???? That's a LOT of price for a "failed" concept!


the chinese aren't going to buy the J-31 there money is going into the J-20. the J-31 is powered by 2 RD-93 engines, latest stealth planes incorporate TVC, to me this J-31 is just a chinese experiment, it won't attract major buyers. the aircraft has so many unknown factors, radar, engines are probably not on par with top fighters. the leopard was designed in the 1970s the chinese operate better tanks the the mbt-3000 and tbh its not like the pak army needs more tanks. the J-10s design has been compared with the eurofighter and latest version of grippen, the whole idea that the chinese stole US JSF designs and incorporated it into the J-31 is BS. They've probably done it but have invested it into the J-20.


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## monitor

thrilainmanila said:


> the chinese aren't going to buy the J-31 there money is going into the J-20. the J-31 is powered by 2 RD-93 engines, latest stealth planes incorporate TVC, to me this J-31 is just a chinese experiment, it won't attract major buyers. the aircraft has so many unknown factors, radar, engines are probably not on par with top fighters. the leopard was designed in the 1970s the chinese operate better tanks the the mbt-3000 and tbh its not like the pak army needs more tanks. the J-10s design has been compared with the eurofighter and latest version of grippen, the whole idea that the chinese stole US JSF designs and incorporated it into the J-31 is BS. They've probably done it but have invested it into the J-20.



It will be power by WS-15/17 series of engine when those Engine mature RD-93 is interim measures just as for JF-17 will be powered by WS-13 in future if WS can mature enough . In future lets see can they incorporate TVC on J-31 btw J-20 too doesn't have any TVC as of now which is going to use by China it self so your argument of Chinese experiment is not right . Euro fighter or gripen are good fighter but not fifth generation fighter where J-31 degine as a fifth generation fighter .

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## Storm Force

J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
This is a chinease report

Its a honest assessment of the J31

poor DATED engine that smokes (all other fifth gen fighters will have TVC engines)

Considered to be too heavy to be a agile dog fighter. A PAK FA or RAPTOR would run circles round it.

PLAAF will not be buying this plane only the J20 WHICH HOUSES all their cutting edge technology

J31 will be acquired by poor countries in chinease sphere of influence ie Pakistan Bangladesh North Korea etc.

READ THE ARTICLE dont kill the messenger.

MY Conclusion

China has made incredible strides with it Fighter technology

China still lacks in key areas over the WEST ie Engine tech sensor fusion and accuracy of weapons

J31 will do well to beat off a meteore equipped aeasa radar rafale/typhoon

WE SHALL SEE HOW IT DEVELOPES OVER NEXT TEN YEARS.

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## PakEye

* 
Falcon Eagle FC-31 or J-31 Mystery, Questions, Objections and Lack Of Information*

*Show of Falcon Eagle FC-31 or J-31*
The J-31 "31001" technology demonstrator flies past in a public demonstration at the Zhuhai 2014 Airshow. In addition to generating export interest, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is looking to get J-31 business from the PLAAF.

*J-31 Lands
*
The J-31 "31001" makes another approach at Zhuhai. The J-31 is still a tech demonstrator at this point, and lacks extras like electro-optical and missile launch warning sensors, as well as likely using a preexisting radar (J-10) at this point.
The J-31 differs from the F-35 in that it has two engines, which in turn reduces its area ruling, making for more efficient supersonic flight, including future supercruise once the J-31 obtains more powerful engines.
*FC-31*
This up-to-date scale model of the FC-31 (the J-31's export designation) at Zhuhai 2014 shows several important upgrades from "31001", including the installation of a Electro Optical Targeting Sensor (EOTS) pod under the nose (shiny gold fairing).

*Stealthiness
*
FC-31 hasseveral radar cross-section reduction measures, such as clipped wing edges, and revised vertical stabilizers, to reduce reflected radar waves. which have been enhanced for stealth. The new model also has an Infrared Search and Track sensor installed on the underside of its nose, to enable the J-31 to track the heat signatures of enemy aircraft..It also has redesigned, stealth optimized engine nozzles, which suggest that a Chinese 10- to 11-ton thrust engine will ultimately replace the Russian RD-93. Notably, such future engines could allow the J-31 to supercruise, a feature that the F-35 does not have.

*New Engines *
The stealthy new engine nozzles on the FC-31 model indicate that SAC looks to replace the current RD-93 turbofans. The yet unnamed turbofan engines will each generate about 10 to 11 tons of afterburning thrust, which could enable the J-31 to supercruise.

*Next Gen Display*
This flight simulator/cockpit avionics display shows state of the art pilot/cockpit interface technology, including a holographic Heads Up Display (HUD), a built in helmet wide display, and multi-functional display screens (not shown) that would show and fuse sensor data, managed communications, as well as firing and controlling weapons.

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## HRK

Storm Force said:


> J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
> This is a chinease report
> 
> Its a honest assessment of the J31
> 
> poor DATED engine that smokes (all other fifth gen fighters will have TVC engines)
> 
> Considered to be too heavy to be a agile dog fighter. A PAK FA or RAPTOR would run circles round it.



Same concerns were raised against 'F-35' but its there as the 'need for a product' ( lower tier 5 gen aircraft) exists in that part of the world, same is the case here i.e. 'need of a product' similar to it exist here at this part of the world as well, so may be FC-31 in its 'current form' is not up to the mark 'as of now' but may be in next '3-5' years it might show better prospectives to address the demand.

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## NKVD

HRK said:


> Same concerns were raised against 'F-35' but its there as the 'need for a product' lower tier 5 gen aircraft exist in that part of the world, same is the case here i.e. 'need of a product' similar to it exist here at this part of the world as well, so may be FC-31 in its 'current form' is not up to the mark 'as of now' but may be in next '3-5' years it might show better prospectives to address the demand.


F-35 Was not first Stealth they build. they have fifth gen Prototypes almost decades old they are already ahead of all weather its Radars,sensors, Designs Every thing


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The smoke is non issue----a regular modified RD93 on a JF 17 does not smoke like that----. On a Jf 17---the smoke is there but not like this----black plumes of smoke---and it seemed like coming from one engine.

Secondly----the current engine is just the initial power plant and not the final----the power plant option maybe the RD93A or the one in the current MIG 29's what is it the RD 33! PAF will not go for a Chinese engine just for the sake of it---.

Our concern is not the Raptor but the SU 30 MKI's and Rafales.

The bvr missile is already available----in 5 years possibly the latest version of the SD 10 B will be available----also---. In their final stages now the aesa radars will also be available---all the upto date EW packages would be up and going in 5 years----.

The timing is right for the J31----the Ew packages and weapons are a ready to go---integration will be easier for paf this time around-----and same for the Chinese---.

TVC does not bring anything to the table for paf

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## Storm Force

Master Khan.

Re TVC brush off not brining anything.

F22 RAPTOR
J20 CHINA
PAK FA Russia

ALL HAVE TVC ......There is a reason why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND this notion that ALL WILL WELL IN 5 YEARS is blind faith....

TRY 10 YEARS


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> Master Khan.
> 
> Re TVC brush off not brining anything.
> 
> F22 RAPTOR
> J20 CHINA
> PAK FA Russia
> 
> ALL HAVE TVC ......There is a reason why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> AND this notion that ALL WILL WELL IN 5 YEARS is blind faith....
> 
> TRY 10 YEARS



Why doesn't F-35 have TVC?


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## NKVD

Horus said:


> Why doesn't F-35 have TVC?


TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
For starters, witness the B model nozzle assembly. Consider. A and C models are single engine/single nozzle aircraft restricted to ceilings well below F-22, and high altitude is where TVC can pay off. TVC on all models F-35 would only impose penalties. Granted, it does sound like a fine idea for C model takeoffs until you consider "roll rate" and rapid loss of lift given single engine and nozzie. 0.02


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## Kompromat

NKVD said:


> TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
> For starters, witness the B model nozzle assembly. Consider. A and C models are single engine/single nozzle aircraft restricted to ceilings well below F-22, and high altitude is where TVC can pay off. TVC on all models F-35 would only impose penalties. Granted, it does sound like a fine idea for C model takeoffs until you consider "roll rate" and rapid loss of lift given single engine and nozzie. 0.02



Bigger engine = more fuel consumption = lower loiter time = reduced battle effectiveness.

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## NKVD

Horus said:


> Bigger engine = more fuel consumption = lower loiter time = reduced battle effectiveness.


TVC has little or no use at Medium-Low Altitudes??? 

I did not say that re F-22 with substantially longer tail lever arm and two TVC units vice F-35. I am saying that for F-35 single engine on centerline stationment. How do you generate torque using F-22 TVC for F-35, a centerline engine/nozzle combination? How do you counter unwanted torque in a productive way with TVC F-35? 

Also, while the TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.

TVC weight is but one penalty, but it's a valid one. I claim all it can accomplish is to snap the nose in a useful way - arguably. 

What do you believe TVC on F-35 would achieve? I mean, you want the option.


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## Kompromat

NKVD said:


> TVC has little or no use at Medium-Low Altitudes???
> 
> I did not say that re F-22 with substantially longer tail lever arm and two TVC units vice F-35. I am saying that for F-35 single engine on centerline stationment. How do you generate torque using F-22 TVC for F-35, a centerline engine/nozzle combination? How do you counter unwanted torque in a productive way with TVC F-35?
> 
> Also, while the TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
> 
> TVC weight is but one penalty, but it's a valid one. I claim all it can accomplish is to snap the nose in a useful way - arguably.
> 
> What do you believe TVC on F-35 would achieve? I mean, you want the option.



TVC makes sense for an aircraft the size of F-22, J-20 and T-50 but for F-35 and FC-31, i don't see its merits. Personally i would want to see full spectrum sensor fusion and supercruise in FC-31 if China can bring in a 100kn engine.

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## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> Master Khan.
> 
> Re TVC brush off not brining anything.
> 
> F22 RAPTOR
> J20 CHINA
> PAK FA Russia
> 
> ALL HAVE TVC ......There is a reason why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> AND this notion that ALL WILL WELL IN 5 YEARS is blind faith....
> 
> TRY 10 YEARS



Hi,

You don't know what I know-----. If you don't want to believe it----that is not my problem.

Just remember many a years ago I stated----on JF 17 it would be 8 to 10 years----.

As for J31----it is 5 years from the word go----. Every thing else is in its final stages----this is a modular design---it is plug and play. There are 3 issues---if they are over come on a fastrak----there might be a surprise waiting at or around 4 years time period.

As for you---it is just wait and see---as for me---it is what I know.

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## razgriz19

Syed Hussain said:


> For your kind information(which you should verify from Chinese sources instead of self speculations) J-20's initial role will be of a pure air supremacy fighter for countering the threats of western 5th gen fighters & keeping the Chinese "shores" safe, multirole capabilities will be added in later variants. & As per Chinese sources it's more stealthy+maneuverable than J-31. J-31 was dropped by PLAAF because it wasn't "good enough" for them so Shenyang decided to carry it on it's own as an "export product" just like JF-17 which was never inducted by China.
> Bigger size is the + point of J-20, & you should read about the testing reports by US Air Force stating that in simulations the F-22's were able to penetrate Chinese air space & come back successfully but wouldn't be able to make it back to stations because of low fuel capacity which is because of "lower size"...!
> Money is the only problem We have otherwise there is no comparison at all between the two aircrafts.



Oh bhai jaan bottom line is, Its not for sale!
Jst like the F-22. why do you think the chinese came up with J-31 in the first place? 
That's for export. J-20 is not for sale.


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> why we are getting *fc-1*
> paf need to consider this
> beast
> View attachment 154094


we must consider F-22 with TOT and J-20 and PAKFA with TOT and presidency of Uganda

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## Syed Hussain

aliaselin said:


> CAC has an export version of 5th gen solution and did not get money support from AVIC as FC-31
> View attachment 155361
> 
> 
> length：15.58m, wingspan: 9m, empty load 9 ton, engine is one WS-15
> Since many Pakistan officers and engineers are working in CAC, I think they know about it but 。。。no money you can do nothing


It's a fan made animation.


thrilainmanila said:


> why does pakistan always opt for the option the chinese have rejected. for example the JF-17 is a design the Chinese aren't interested in, pakistan picks it up and takes it same with other projects like Type-98 tank, mbt-3000, F-22 frigates and now the J-31. I think the J-10 has a way better design concept then the J-31, The J-31 seems more like a failed Chinese experiment.



Partially, I would agree with you. Pakistan always goes for "cheap price tag" & that's why JF-17, MBT-2000, F-22 frigates, were chosen instead of J-10, Type-99mbt, & type-54 frigates...!
Budget is indeed a problem but you can think in a different way also,,,for example if you decide to go for J-10b instead of FC-1,(former being double the price of the later) than you should also think of the plus point that 100 J-10's will do the job better than 150 FC-1's...!


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## Syed Hussain

razgriz19 said:


> Oh bhai jaan bottom line is, Its not for sale!
> Jst like the F-22. why do you think the chinese came up with J-31 in the first place?
> That's for export. J-20 is not for sale.


I can't go in detail, only have a look at this "chwl" of former Defense Minister of Pakistan
China agree to give J-20/FC-20 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Pakistan" Ahmad Mukhtar Pakistani Defence Minister Said after returning from China. - Google Search


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## Max Pain

thrilainmanila said:


> typical village mentality exists on this forum, whenever a genuine criticism is aimed against the pakistan armed forces, everyone assumes that person is an indian, first of all get you're head out of your *** and go and get a proper education you retard



sometimes stupidity is best replied with sarcasm but lemme give you the answer, China and Pakistan are two different countries and their armed forces have different needs, why did China didnt Induct JF-17 simply because the plane is wayy to small and does not possess the range to cover the vast terrain of China, however the scenario is totally different when it comes to Pakistan, we have a history of flying aircrafts of such class e.g F-16, they handsomely fullfill our need of replacing the old mirages and F-7's.
if you really think JF-17 is rejected then tell me why are Chinese developing WS-10A solely for JF-17? Engine tech is a massive investment so they have better plans in mind, Since Pakistan enjoys great relations with china, the projects you mentioned are more specifically designed to fullfill Pakistan's needs, our foes are different.we have our own way to tackle threats and they have their own.
hope I answered your question.

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## aliaselin

Syed Hussain said:


> It's a fan made animation.



Yes, but based on information revealed by internals

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## Mav3rick

tarrar said:


> *J31 is advance but it is a 4th Generation fighter where as J/F35 to whom which the people compare with is a 5th Generation fighter*. J31 uses the same engine RD93 which is the same one which JF17 is using, but the good news is China is working on an improved variant named WS-13A with 100KN of thrust for J-31 & there are rumors that WS-13A will also be used by JF17.
> 
> So though the news is official which I am very happy to hear but it will take time for J31 to develop completely.
> 
> Mean while PAF needs to work on replacing dead mirages completely with J10B, with this move PAF will get a modern fighter jet.



Although someone has already pointed it out earlier, let me rephrase, The Chinese generation of fighter jets is not the same as the western generation. The Chinese consider the F-22, F-35, J-20, J-31, PAK-FA, FGFA etc. to be the 4th generation of Jets while they consider the JF-17, the SU-30MKI, the Rafael, Mig-29SMT, Typhoon, F-15SE etc., to be the third generation (with a '+' on case basis).

Furthermore, the single most important technology for the latest gen of fighters, 5th for the west and 4th for the Chinese, is all aspect stealth which the J-20 and J-31 provide. Also note that the J-31, although said to be flying with the same engine as JF-17, still engages technology that minimizes its exposure and that it will eventually be replaced with a true 5th gen engine, Chinese or otherwise.


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## Viper0011.

NKVD said:


> TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
> For starters, witness the B model nozzle assembly. Consider. A and C models are single engine/single nozzle aircraft restricted to ceilings well below F-22, and high altitude is where TVC can pay off. TVC on all models F-35 would only impose penalties. Granted, it does sound like a fine idea for C model takeoffs until you consider "roll rate" and rapid loss of lift given single engine and nozzie. 0.02



Actually, you got it partly right but majority of your understanding is incorrect. The JSF (Naval and the Marine versions) should have TVC as they will use STOVL during deployment and carrier based operations. However, the same TVC on a single engine is a performance kill.
Unlike the Raptor or the PakFa or the SU-35/30, etc, recovery on a single engine is difficult at an optimum level in an intense maneuverable situation like getting rid of a BVR lock or even warhead explosion avoidance.

Add a full combat load to it, defying gravity, free-fall and then vertical spin stabilization and control become extremely critical. The flight computer is too busy using unstable air-designs to recover from an intense anti-gravity scenario and its using many millions of calculations and jet's airframe and functions for stability.

You may beat a missile with an upside down U or a Cobra, etc, but you'll be a sitting duck for a WVR missile or guns following that maneuver. High risk of losing a plane in that scenario and hard recovery post stall. Now apply the concept to heavies, the recovery is much instantaneous in the Raptor's case (or in the Pak-Fa or SU-30/35, etc's case).

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## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
> This is a chinease report
> 
> Its a honest assessment of the J31
> 
> poor DATED engine that smokes (all other fifth gen fighters will have TVC engines)
> 
> Considered to be too heavy to be a agile dog fighter. A PAK FA or RAPTOR would run circles round it.
> 
> PLAAF will not be buying this plane only the J20 WHICH HOUSES all their cutting edge technology
> 
> J31 will be acquired by poor countries in chinease sphere of influence ie Pakistan Bangladesh North Korea etc.
> 
> READ THE ARTICLE dont kill the messenger.
> 
> MY Conclusion
> 
> China has made incredible strides with it Fighter technology
> 
> China still lacks in key areas over the WEST ie Engine tech sensor fusion and accuracy of weapons
> 
> J31 will do well to beat off a meteore equipped aeasa radar rafale/typhoon
> 
> WE SHALL SEE HOW IT DEVELOPES OVER NEXT TEN YEARS.



Whomever believes that PLAF/PLAAF/PLAN will not employ J-31 are in extreme ignorance. Just as the F-35 becomes the workhorse of the US forces so too will the J-31, eventually, become the workhorse of Chinese forces with the J-20 serving the same purpose for the Chinese that the F-22 does for the Americans!

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## Viper0011.

Horus said:


> TVC makes sense for an aircraft the size of F-22, J-20 and T-50 but for F-35 and FC-31, i don't see its merits. Personally i would want to see full spectrum sensor fusion and supercruise in FC-31 if China can bring in a 100kn engine.



You are right. TVC makes sense on the heavies. I've given a very detailed explanation to this topic below. But FC-31 should have the TVC as its considered a Medium to Heavy jet with twin turbines. Single engine tvc (JSF for example) doesn't make sense as there is not a real scenario. The recovery on a single engine from a tvc related maneuver is very complex and it takes time. While the plane may be a sitting duck for the second missile or guns for a good few seconds. JSF for the Marines and for the Navy would have tvc as its going to use STOVL and will use aircraft carrier based platforms.

Twin engines recover almost instantaneously, see the Raptor's recovery below:

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## Mav3rick

Irfan Baloch said:


> we must consider F-22 with TOT and J-20 and PAKFA with TOT and presidency of Uganda



If only you had thrown in the CM'ship of Maharashtra, I would have supported you.


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## Stealth

Storm Force said:


> J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
> This is a chinease report
> 
> Its a honest assessment of the J31
> 
> poor DATED engine that smokes (all other fifth gen fighters will have TVC engines)
> 
> Considered to be too heavy to be a agile dog fighter. A PAK FA or RAPTOR would run circles round it.
> 
> PLAAF will not be buying this plane only the J20 WHICH HOUSES all their cutting edge technology
> 
> J31 will be acquired by poor countries in chinease sphere of influence ie Pakistan Bangladesh North Korea etc.
> 
> READ THE ARTICLE dont kill the messenger.
> 
> MY Conclusion
> 
> China has made incredible strides with it Fighter technology
> 
> China still lacks in key areas over the WEST ie Engine tech sensor fusion and accuracy of weapons
> 
> J31 will do well to beat off a meteore equipped aeasa radar rafale/typhoon
> 
> WE SHALL SEE HOW IT DEVELOPES OVER NEXT TEN YEARS.



Good so attack on China they will let you know how much their weapons are accurate lol... and if you still alive after their response... please reply over here about your chinese hardware experince lol

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## PakEye

Stealth said:


> Good so attack on China they will let you know how much their weapons are accurate lol... and if you still alive after their response... please reply over here about your chinese hardware experince lol


after successful debut of FC-31 at Zuhahi air show 2014 some western and indian members feeling heat & jealous they are criticize only for criticism the major part of their criticism are based on partiality they are ignoring that Currently, "31001" is only a technology demonstrator and using available pre exist parts that will be replaced later 
Currently, "31001" is a technology demonstrator for SAC's stealth fighter technology. the J-31’s primary mission at Zhuhai has been to hunt for export customers for the J-31 include nations as those looking for less expensive or non-U.S. alternate. Hence it uses preexisting systems, like the Russian RD-93 .

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## Last Samuri

Tvc is a relatively new concept.

It gives large powerful angles of attack and instant turn rates that just don't exist in non tvc fighters.

This is why all the latest super fighters have tvc engines


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## Saifullah Sani

*No qualms about showing J-31 to potential buyers: colonel*

As China's J-31 stealth fighter, also known as the FC-31, has been designed primarily for the export market, the country had no qualms about demonstrating the fighter at the Zhuhai Airshow earlier this month, Senior Colonel Xu Yongling of the PLA Air Force has told Guangzhou's Southern Daily.

A test pilot for China's J-10 fighter, Xu said China made use of the biennial airshow to promote its advanced fighter, still in development, to the overseas market. Xu said the J-31 was not developed using a great deal of new technology that the country does not want the public to know about; on the contrary, decision makers in Beijing realized that China should play more important role in the global aircraft market. *In addition to its regular client Pakistan, China also envisions selling the fighter to countries in the Middle East, South Asia and Latin America.*

Xu said the Chinese fighter carries a significant cost advantage American and Russian competitors. The quality of China's fourth-generation fighters has also improved gradually over time, he added. He believes the design of FC-31 fifth-generation stealth fighters should meet the individual requirements of potential buyers among developing nations.

Xu said the fifth-generation FC-31 has been developed with lessons learned from developing fourth-generation fighters. This is a reason why the Chinese aviation industry was willing to display this aircraft to the public while the Chengdu J-20, the country's first stealth fighter, has still been kept largely under wraps. Xu admitted however that the problem of developing a sufficiently powerful and reliable engine for advanced fighters remains one that China faces as it eyes up the export market.

Xu also said that it is possible the J-31 may serve as a future carrier-based fighter for the PLA, though the navy has not made any decision on this yet and it is unlikely that fourth-generation fighters like the J-15 will be totally replaced by the J-31. It is more likely that both aircraft will serve jointly in the future.

*China still needs five years to put this new stealth fighter into production, Xu said.*

*No qualms about showing J-31 to potential buyers: colonel｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com*

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## Donatello

*Pakistan considers buying 30-40 stealth fighters from China

Pakistan is interested in acquiring a stealth fighter and has expressed interest in the newly unveiled Chinese FC-31. Pakistan is one of several countries interested in the new Chinese fighter - the first stealth aircraft available for export without US or Russian restrictions.

Pakistan is interested in acquiring a stealth fighter and has expressed interest in the newly unveiled Chinese FC-31. thePakistani Dawn publication quoted Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain saying the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities. According to media reports Pakistan is interested in acquiring 30-40 Shenyang FC-31s, an aircraft developed by China primarily for the export market.

A stealth fighter could provide Pakistan (and China) with limited strike capability within the Indian sub continent, since India currently lacks viable counter stealth radar capability

The export version of the new stealth fighter will be powered by two Russian Klimov RD-93 engines, the same engine that powers the JF-17 Thunder operated by the Pakistani Air Force. Mr Hussain added that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese Z-10 helicopter gunship.

Pakistan considers buying 30-40 stealth fighters from China | Defense Update:



*


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## Donatello

TVC is useless. It doesn't make a stealth aircraft do wonders. Simply because, if you intend on using it in the wvr domain, you are pretty dead already......no point in having stealth then.....look first shoot first. 
Secondly, a HOBS missile offer a very high wide angle of attack so even if you pull 15Gs, the missile will come for you.
Same with BVR that can outrun and out turn any 'TVC' equipped fighter.

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## SQ8

Syed Hussain said:


> It's been no mare than 2 months since I joined this forum so what's been here before I don't know & care about, but in this two months I have "encountered" at least 3 "years old" members who were trying to fit WS-15 in JF-17(old can also be a fool's gold). What I know is I have bunch of friends & relatives working in all three branches of Pak defense forces in both fighting & technical categories. So much for "laptop" intellectuals like you



Well, then all your friends and relatives have been feeding you poppycock. So while Laptop intellectuals here(god knows who was trying to fit the WS-15 into where) may be having their guesses, Im guessing tablet intellectuals like you aren't having much luck either.

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## nomi007

Irfan Baloch said:


> we must consider F-22 with TOT and J-20 and PAKFA with TOT and presidency of Uganda


chor yar phir tu mind kar jahe ga


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> chor yar phir tu mind kar jahe ga


dear looks like I annoyed you. reason for my joke was

the flying ship look alike J-20 is a Chinese specific heavy aircraft with its territories in mind. it doesn't suite our PAF doctrine. J-31 is already a big leap of faith for a force that runs away from 2 engine platforms like a plague. 

not only asking for a platform which China wants to hide and keep for itself will be rude but its purchase and running costs will breakdown PAF budget. to cover for whatever it can bring to the table , we got cruise missiles cheers

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## rockstar08

its funny to see how indians are crying over Engine issues again and again , and right now J-31 is in initial stage of testing , they are making Engines and stealth fighter , and on the other hand our neighbors are trying their best to sign the rafale deal ... World is appreciating Chinese tech and weapons but our neighbors blinded by jealousy and superiority complex are just living in delusion ...

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## Viper0011.

thrilainmanila said:


> *the chinese aren't going to buy the J-31 there money is going into the J-20. the J-31 is powered by 2 RD-93 engines, latest stealth planes incorporate TVC, to me this J-31 is just a chinese experiment, it won't attract major buyers.* .




Read your own post. I almost didn't want to answer it as it you are adding things like "money is going into J-20" and "to me this J-31 is a Chinese experiment".....you lost credibility immediately. You are not an expert on the Chinese weapons program nor you are an expert on Chinese military financials. Pulling stuff out of thin air just wastes people's time to respond to imagination based posts.
However, the Chinese have a strategic need. You obviously don't understand how Chinese military works. Outside of its Naval ambitions, it doesn't want to nor it is trying to go compete with the US head to head or jet to jet. It knows it can't. The global power status will still remain to the US military. No doubt about it. Whether India, China, Brazil, Saudia become regional powers or not, they won't challenge the US military globally like the US can. That's a fact. These guys will be limited to their regions ONLY. But of-course posing a THREAT to the US through long range strikes or missiles. 

Now having that established, why would China need another twin engined Stealth jet? They might acquire some eventually to be based next to Thailand and all, but it'll be a few. Their goal is invisible strike at long ranges......that's J-20 due to its large body, weapons load and all. They figured that if they can produce a true stealthy platform for strikes, having air to air options are not that important as they have plenty of jets for that, from J-10 to SU series and everything else. 

Japan and China, if they go to war, the air to air will be limited due to the distance. There will be some naval confrontation but if the Chinese strikes Japan (or India) without being "seen", that's huge. You take out strike bases, what's left for the other one to retaliate with???
To deal with India's threat immediately or today, they have similar and more fire power on the border in the shape of SU, J-11's, etc, etc which will compete with SU-30's and the likes. 

So no need for J-31 strategically. Same situation happened with the JFT. They didn't need JFT as they had J-10 in pipes which is a bigger platform with more range and weapons load. However, to fill the gap in the PAF's case, JFT turned out to be an excellent choice as its cost effective and has a range of capabilities that the PAF never had before in its Mirages, F-7's and A-5's. Plus distance between India and Pakistan is so short that a modernized true 4.5th Gen JFT can easily challenge SU-30 and Rafale with enhanced avionics and missiles. Today's jets may never see each other eye to eye as majority of the kills will be BVR related. So the superior maneuverability in dog fighting may be very limited. Anyone with good avionics and missiles can potentially take down a better enemy. 
So this is all strategic, just because a nation doesn't have the need for an expensive jet, doesn't mean its a failed design!

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## Chak Bamu

SAC alone and by itself can not run with FC-31. AVIC is the mother of Chinese aviation companies and the one that actually calls the shots. A second stealth program could not have started without their consent. So anyone who thinks that Chinese do not know what they are doing, is deluding themselves. PLAN might or might not order this bird, but SAC needs to make something other than SU series clones after a few years. So, FC-31 is not merely an experiment. It would not have been the show's star at Zuhai show, if it were only an experiment.

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## SSGPA1

Pakistan's first priority should be an anti missile system and an anti aircraft system that could counter JSF etc. Next war may be against multiple countries and one or two squadrons of a stealth fighter may not do much. We need SAMs that could give nightmares to the enemies of Pakistan.


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## SQ8

Last Samuri said:


> Tvc is a relatively new concept.
> 
> It gives large powerful angles of attack and instant turn rates that just don't exist in non tvc fighters.
> 
> This is why all the latest super fighters have tvc engines



Not the F-35. Because when the F-35 was designed(much after the F-22 and the super fighters) it was found that the cost benefits of TVC versus the ability of most modern close range air to air missiles combined with a helmet mounted sight essentially ensure a kill rate of 90% and above even against super-manoeuvring targets..

Aircraft like the F-22 do more than just use TVC for maneouvers. And today's F-35 can fire a Aim-9X whilst pointing its nose away from say a Su-35 doing cartwheels and "ballet" in the air.. and still blow it out of the sky.
Why?
Because the TVC aircraft is limited by the human condition of withstanding a certain amount of g.. while the missile can do close to 60g. The Russians figured this out earlier as well, their banking on TVC has to do more with the hope that once US aircraft have expended their missiles or missed their first shot..and survived the Russian first shot...they can get in position quicker to kill the American aircraft. Problem with that is that the American air to air combat doctrine specifically avoids the situation of getting into post-stall manoeuvres.. so they wont be fighting at all where the Russian will have the advantage with TVC. Even when they do, today most modern aircraft have Helmet mounted sighting systems for highly agile missiles.. the result is that the first shot usually kills.. and the first shot no longer needs to be made with the aircraft pointing its nose at the other.

Tomorrows air combat, including that in the India Pak arena will be less about turning around in dogfighting and more about getting the first shot of without the other person knowing..and then running away. The IAF knows that already, which is why it did not insist on TVC with the Rafale...and most air displays with the MKI rely on showing off its superior aerodynamics.. and not the rather limited utility of its TVC.

The Red Flag video that is much hated by Indians because it makes the horrible mistake of saying something negative about Indians(regardless of whether it is true or not) and has its inaccuracies.. is not all wrong of the limitations of TVC in combat.

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## Storm Force

Oscar.

HMS (helmet mounted sight) is not unique to F35 or USA.

Infact did the Russians not invent this concept first in the mig29 flankers.

HMS is standard in most modern fighters of the 4th gen era.ie su30mki etc.

in which case a su30mki which has both hms & tvc is absolutely lethal


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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Tomorrows air combat, including that in the India Pak arena will be less about turning around in dogfighting and more about getting the first shot of without the other person knowing..and then running away. The IAF knows that already, which is why it did not insist on TVC with the Rafale...and most air displays with the MKI rely on showing off its superior aerodynamics.. and not the rather limited utility of its TVC.



Hi,

When I made that statement 6 --- 7 years ago on this board---shoot and scoot---there were posters on this board after my head---and on that board pakdef.org 10 + years ago---they ran me out---specially that idiot Hkhan.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When I made that statement 6 --- 7 years ago on this board---shoot and scoot---there were posters on this board after my head---and on that board pakdef.org 10 + years ago---they ran me out---specially that idiot Hkhan.



I'd rather not discuss Pakdef.. they are the intellectual equivalent of Bharat rakshak.. privy to half baked information courtesy of Mamoos and Chachas.

The shoot and scoot argument is one that is supported by most western air warfare analysts(if you disregard rebels-for-the-sake-of-attention like Pierre Sprey). Just because an idea was misjudged in the era of the Vietnam war does not mean that the same mistake will be repeated. 

Unless the Russians or the Chinese come up with a point defence system for aircraft(like CIWS on a ship) based on energy weapons or otherwise. The day of spinning around in circles is fairly limited.

HOWEVER, that being said it would be overly presumptuous of us to say that in the future turning fights will not occur. There could be various scenarios where manoeuvrability would be important.. but how much is the real question. Considering that there are advances in counter measures and counter counter measures.. there may be a period again where air combat manoeuvring comes into its own(albeit with a twist) so it will continue to remain an essential part of training syllabi. 


But for today, as of right now and for the next ten years or so.. An aircraft with a superior dogfight missile like the A-darter or Aim-9X combined with a good helmet fighting system will equalize the fight between one with TVC and a similar system. 

Our well respected member Chogy who was a F-15 driver with the "Gorillas" himself had the same opinion.

@gambit regardless of the hoopla on the other thread.. would be nice if you pitch in about this.

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## Donatello

Yes, i believe Gambit is best left to sort the technical aspects here......where we can actually learn something.

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## Basel

@Oscar China don't need Russia to built energy weapons, they have just developed one to take out UAVs and low flying objects, they will improve it and Pakistan should look into it for future needs as the system can be mounted on a truck.


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## SQ8

Basel said:


> @Oscar China don't need Russia to built energy weapons, they have just developed one to take out UAVs and low flying objects, they will improve it and Pakistan should look into it for future needs as the system can be mounted on a truck.



I dont I mentioned either that they need the Russians for that. But their weapon is far from being able to be mounted on an actual combat platform..


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## Basel

@Oscar check below links of western media which shows China have developed and mounted laser on truck although it can not take out all threats but still first step in right direction.

China Develops Anti-Drone Lasers | The Diplomat
.
Why China is using lasers to take down drones - Yahoo News


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## SQ8

Basel said:


> @Oscar check below links of western media which shows China have developed and mounted laser on truck although it can not take out all threats but still first step in right direction.
> 
> China Develops Anti-Drone Lasers | The Diplomat
> .
> Why China is using lasers to take down drones - Yahoo News



And these are rather low powered lasers that have lesser value on targets with thicker skin.


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## Basel

@Oscar I have said similar thing in my post, but it is good development as they can field laser weapons and now they will definitely field high power system soon.


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## zaid butt

orangzaib said:


> You are right. TVC makes sense on the heavies. I've given a very detailed explanation to this topic below. But FC-31 should have the TVC as its considered a Medium to Heavy jet with twin turbines. Single engine tvc (JSF for example) doesn't make sense as there is not a real scenario. The recovery on a single engine from a tvc related maneuver is very complex and it takes time. While the plane may be a sitting duck for the second missile or guns for a good few seconds. JSF for the Marines and for the Navy would have tvc as its going to use STOVL and will use aircraft carrier based platforms.
> 
> Twin engines recover almost instantaneously, see the Raptor's recovery below:


what a jet excellent


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## AsianLion

I thought one of our mods said, Pakdef Forum has links with the most authoritative DefenceNews.com, Janes and Pakistani Establishment as a fact.

We can agree that not all the time PakDef Forums could be correct but a high intellectual forum, like our sister forum, nevertheless.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> And these are rather low powered lasers that have lesser value on targets with thicker skin.



Technology has its own natural evolution. How long did it take for the Steam engine to spread across:
1-Britain
2-Europe
3-World
??


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Technology has its own natural evolution. How long did it take for the Steam engine to spread across:
> 1-Britain
> 2-Europe
> 3-World
> ??



Around 10 years for England.. 20 for europe.. and 60 for the world. 
That meant that for ten years.. the British had the best in the technology.. and so on. 
In this context, it means that the Americans will continue to have their lead in the tech for some time. However, moore's law does apply where certain technological advancements are concerned.. so the Chinese may not have a better laser(unless they can gain it via espionage) but they will have a comparable targeting system.

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## Hyperion

Whenever it's a matter of national security, I feel as if the Chinese will be able to/will replicate almost any system they focus on. It's always about how deep ones pockets are, and at the moment and for the foreseeable future, their pockets seem pretty deep. 

Regarding Energy Weapons, IMO, they'll go the espionage + R&D way (from historical data). If they can target it, other part of the equation will become much simpler to solve.



Oscar said:


> Around 10 years for England.. 20 for europe.. and 60 for the world.
> That meant that for ten years.. the British had the best in the technology.. and so on.
> In this context, it means that the Americans will continue to have their lead in the tech for some time. However, moore's law does apply where certain technological advancements are concerned.. so the Chinese may not have a better laser(unless they can gain it via espionage) but they will have a comparable targeting system.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Around 10 years for England.. 20 for europe.. and 60 for the world.
> That meant that for ten years.. the British had the best in the technology.. and so on.
> In this context, it means that the Americans will continue to have their lead in the tech for some time. However, moore's law does apply where certain technological advancements are concerned.. so the Chinese may not have a better laser(unless they can gain it via espionage) but they will have a comparable targeting system.



That is what i precisely meant. What is unique and relevant to one party today, will be eventually in the hands of another. Time has it's way of correcting imbalance. But it favors only those that understand the value of time. It does not mean Pakistan or Vietnam will have a laser weapon in the development.

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## cirr

Oscar said:


> And these are rather low powered lasers that have lesser value on targets with thicker skin.



If only China would reveal to the public its laser weapon programmes which are rather extensive to say the least、

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## cirr

Horus said:


> TVC makes sense for an aircraft the size of F-22, J-20 and T-50 but for F-35 and FC-31, i don't see its merits. Personally i would want to see full spectrum sensor fusion and supercruise in FC-31 if China can bring in a 100kn engine.



Two *Type S3-2* technology demonstrators were completed in 2011，laying the foundation for the research and development of the WS12 with TVC and 9800kgf for a thrust-weight ratio of over 9：







Now who in his right mind would seriously think that China would develop the FC-31 without a parallel programme for a new generation of advanced medium-thrust engine？

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## SpArK

The fighter looks great and is a stunner with regard to design. 
The issues cited fortunately are of engine which can be easily replaced, rectifying the issues.

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## fatman17

too early to make any judgements / conclusions...


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## hassan1



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## Irfan Baloch

[QUOTE="Oscar, post: 6461058, member: 14956]

Unless the Russians or the Chinese come up with a point defence system for aircraft(like CIWS on a ship) based on energy weapons or otherwise. The day of spinning around in circles is fairly limited.
.[/QUOTE]
out turning and spinning out of an energy based weapon would be impossible because the speed will be near light and even a classic CIWS throws so much lead that staying out of range will be only way to escape it.

proponents of F-35 say that its missiles will do all the work, try out turning the Gs pulled by the missiles.
say Aim 9x. that said there are chances where the jets might merge and NATO's philosophy seems to be that such situation never arises. this is the same pitch used by Typhoon, superior speed and missiles, shoot first and leave the battle field immediately. the target can show off with its cobra until its pasted by the missile.

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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> Around 10 years for England.. 20 for europe.. and 60 for the world.
> That meant that for ten years.. the British had the best in the technology.. and so on.
> In this context, it means that the Americans will continue to have their lead in the tech for some time. However, moore's law does apply where certain technological advancements are concerned.. so the Chinese may not have a better laser(unless they can gain it via espionage) but they will have a comparable targeting system.


 this is where West is frantically working on. even china claimed a drone kill with it

guns maybe replaced with directed energy weapons once the size of the apparatus can be compacted and its "fuel" requirements can become more efficient. currently it is only housed in a plane of 747 size.


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## SSG-Korea

Pakistan should look forward to Western system and China as well too. As China still lack modern avionics as we know and still they flying these machines with lack power engines. I, know Euro Typhoon , why Pakistan stop looking towards Europe. Pakistan should have talk with European countries about Euro Typhoon ! rather than putting all sticks in Chines weapons! 

It is better to both side weapons China +Europe! 

I know Economical issues are with Pakistan too. but still Western Aircraft are still more modern J31.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

SSG-Korea said:


> Pakistan should look forward to Western system and China as well too. As China still lack modern avionics as we know and still they flying these machines with lack power engines. I, know Euro Typhoon , why Pakistan stop looking towards Europe. Pakistan should have talk with European countries about Euro Typhoon ! rather than putting all sticks in Chines weapons!
> 
> It is better to both side weapons China +Europe!
> 
> I know Economical issues are with Pakistan too. but still Western Aircraft are still more modern J31.



May be we are looking towards the KFX project and T50 for training.


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## SSG-Korea

Korea is Looking towards to his own sustainable and reliable program but it mostly based on western system. Korea is happy to help Pakistani friends in MBT K2 too as it much advance tank. However, fighter KAI KF-X is still progress and Pakistan can be participate in it.

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## Kompromat

SSG-Korea said:


> Pakistan should look forward to Western system and China as well too. As China still lack modern avionics as we know and still they flying these machines with lack power engines. I, know Euro Typhoon , why Pakistan stop looking towards Europe. Pakistan should have talk with European countries about Euro Typhoon ! rather than putting all sticks in Chines weapons!
> 
> It is better to both side weapons China +Europe!
> 
> I know Economical issues are with Pakistan too. but still Western Aircraft are still more modern J31.



F-16s are doing fine.


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## Saifullah Sani

Pakistan continues to proceed with improvements to its JF-17 Thunder jet fighter program, but the recent Zhuhai air show also revealed *possible longer term ambitions to acquire stealth aircraft*, namely the Shenyang FC-31.

According to Pakistan officials at Zhuhai, progress is being made to improve the JF-17’s avionics and software, and to fix a probe.

Kaiser Tufail, analyst, author and former air commodore, said these upgrades may not require the aircraft to be sent back to the factory at Pakistani Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, but could be handled locally at unit level.

“As flight trials with different weapons are getting completed, it is time for hardware and software upgrades. I am not sure if these would be done at unit level or factory level; perhaps the former.”

Though the upgrades are not a radical departure from the Block I standard, Tufail nevertheless has “no doubt that they would improve the operational readiness considerably” for the Air Force.

What the future holds for the fighter is uncertain as details of a Block III variant have not been revealed, and Tufail says at present “no one seems willing to talk about them.”

Similarly, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said only reasonable speculation can made at present.

“Block-III is conceptual right now but most likely will see an AESA radar, HMD [helmet-mounted display] and some other avionics improvements. I am not sure if the airframe will be further modified for RCS [radar cross-section] reduction or airframe life enhancements. We just have to wait and see,” he said.

The perennial question regarding the JF-17, however, is its hitherto lack of export orders. Shabbir highlights the disruption facing the fighter’s most likely customers, but is still optimistic.

*“Many of the countries that are probable JF-17 buyers have had political or financial turmoil but it is highly likely that an order will be won in 2015.”*

Nevertheless, Pakistan revealed that a squadron of 18 JF-17s recently took part in a major exercise in western China, which marks the type’s first large-scale deployment.

Meanwhile, although Pakistan’s apparent interest in the FC-31 has caused a stir, Tufail maintains such an aircraft is not required.

“It seems to be a knee-jerk statement without much substance at this point in time,” he said.

“While stealth capability is welcome, the long-range capability that goes with this aircraft may be an overkill for an Air Force that is configured primarily for tactical air support to surface forces,” he said.

“Besides, a concerted strategic bombing campaign to decimate the enemy’s war-fighting capability needs months to achieve results. That option is a non-starter for nuclear-armed belligerents, as much as it is for the rest of the world, which can’t sit back and watch the dangerous escalation,” he added.

“So, I stick to my previously professed contention that it is tactical fighters that we need first and foremost. Two dozen or so stealth fighters seems more of a ‘fashion’ statement.”

*He also highlights a perennial concern for Pakistan that may rule out the FC-31; “Who has got the money? Not Pakistan.”*

Whether a Pakistani order for the FC-31 will materialize is unclear, though *there will be an eventual need to replace the F-16, which is Pakistan’s most potent front-line combat aircraft.*

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attaché to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, said the FC-31 is a likely candidate, but perhaps not for some time.

“It’s being described in some quarters as an export machine, but that is bound to take a long, long time. Certainly there will have to be some sort of replacement for the F-16s, and it won’t be European or Russian, for obvious reasons, so it must be China,” he said.

“I think we can bet on the FC-31.”

Pakistan Continues JF-17 Upgrades, Possible Interest in FC-31 Emerges | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## RAMPAGE

Nothing we didn't know already!


----------



## he-man

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan continues to proceed with improvements to its JF-17 Thunder jet fighter program, but the recent Zhuhai air show also revealed *possible longer term ambitions to acquire stealth aircraft*, namely the Shenyang FC-31.
> 
> According to Pakistan officials at Zhuhai, progress is being made to improve the JF-17’s avionics and software, and to fix a probe.
> 
> Kaiser Tufail, analyst, author and former air commodore, said these upgrades may not require the aircraft to be sent back to the factory at Pakistani Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, but could be handled locally at unit level.
> 
> “As flight trials with different weapons are getting completed, it is time for hardware and software upgrades. I am not sure if these would be done at unit level or factory level; perhaps the former.”
> 
> Though the upgrades are not a radical departure from the Block I standard, Tufail nevertheless has “no doubt that they would improve the operational readiness considerably” for the Air Force.
> 
> What the future holds for the fighter is uncertain as details of a Block III variant have not been revealed, and Tufail says at present “no one seems willing to talk about them.”
> 
> Similarly, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said only reasonable speculation can made at present.
> 
> “Block-III is conceptual right now but most likely will see an AESA radar, HMD [helmet-mounted display] and some other avionics improvements. I am not sure if the airframe will be further modified for RCS [radar cross-section] reduction or airframe life enhancements. We just have to wait and see,” he said.
> 
> The perennial question regarding the JF-17, however, is its hitherto lack of export orders. Shabbir highlights the disruption facing the fighter’s most likely customers, but is still optimistic.
> 
> *“Many of the countries that are probable JF-17 buyers have had political or financial turmoil but it is highly likely that an order will be won in 2015.”*
> 
> Nevertheless, Pakistan revealed that a squadron of 18 JF-17s recently took part in a major exercise in western China, which marks the type’s first large-scale deployment.
> 
> Meanwhile, although Pakistan’s apparent interest in the FC-31 has caused a stir, Tufail maintains such an aircraft is not required.
> 
> “It seems to be a knee-jerk statement without much substance at this point in time,” he said.
> 
> “While stealth capability is welcome, the long-range capability that goes with this aircraft may be an overkill for an Air Force that is configured primarily for tactical air support to surface forces,” he said.
> 
> “Besides, a concerted strategic bombing campaign to decimate the enemy’s war-fighting capability needs months to achieve results. That option is a non-starter for nuclear-armed belligerents, as much as it is for the rest of the world, which can’t sit back and watch the dangerous escalation,” he added.
> 
> “So, I stick to my previously professed contention that it is tactical fighters that we need first and foremost. Two dozen or so stealth fighters seems more of a ‘fashion’ statement.”
> 
> *He also highlights a perennial concern for Pakistan that may rule out the FC-31; “Who has got the money? Not Pakistan.”*
> 
> Whether a Pakistani order for the FC-31 will materialize is unclear, though *there will be an eventual need to replace the F-16, which is Pakistan’s most potent front-line combat aircraft.*
> 
> Analyst, author and former Australian defense attaché to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, said the FC-31 is a likely candidate, but perhaps not for some time.
> 
> “It’s being described in some quarters as an export machine, but that is bound to take a long, long time. Certainly there will have to be some sort of replacement for the F-16s, and it won’t be European or Russian, for obvious reasons, so it must be China,” he said.
> 
> “I think we can bet on the FC-31.”
> 
> Pakistan Continues JF-17 Upgrades, Possible Interest in FC-31 Emerges | Defense News | defensenews.com



Important points.


----------



## xyxmt

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan continues to proceed with improvements to its JF-17 Thunder jet fighter program, but the recent Zhuhai air show also revealed *possible longer term ambitions to acquire stealth aircraft*, namely the Shenyang FC-31.
> 
> According to Pakistan officials at Zhuhai, progress is being made to improve the JF-17’s avionics and software, and to fix a probe.
> 
> Kaiser Tufail, analyst, author and former air commodore, said these upgrades may not require the aircraft to be sent back to the factory at Pakistani Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, but could be handled locally at unit level.
> 
> “As flight trials with different weapons are getting completed, it is time for hardware and software upgrades. I am not sure if these would be done at unit level or factory level; perhaps the former.”
> 
> Though the upgrades are not a radical departure from the Block I standard, Tufail nevertheless has “no doubt that they would improve the operational readiness considerably” for the Air Force.
> 
> What the future holds for the fighter is uncertain as details of a Block III variant have not been revealed, and Tufail says at present “no one seems willing to talk about them.”
> 
> Similarly, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said only reasonable speculation can made at present.
> 
> “Block-III is conceptual right now but most likely will see an AESA radar, HMD [helmet-mounted display] and some other avionics improvements. I am not sure if the airframe will be further modified for RCS [radar cross-section] reduction or airframe life enhancements. We just have to wait and see,” he said.
> 
> The perennial question regarding the JF-17, however, is its hitherto lack of export orders. Shabbir highlights the disruption facing the fighter’s most likely customers, but is still optimistic.
> 
> *“Many of the countries that are probable JF-17 buyers have had political or financial turmoil but it is highly likely that an order will be won in 2015.”*
> 
> Nevertheless, Pakistan revealed that a squadron of 18 JF-17s recently took part in a major exercise in western China, which marks the type’s first large-scale deployment.
> 
> Meanwhile, although Pakistan’s apparent interest in the FC-31 has caused a stir, Tufail maintains such an aircraft is not required.
> 
> “It seems to be a knee-jerk statement without much substance at this point in time,” he said.
> 
> “While stealth capability is welcome, the long-range capability that goes with this aircraft may be an overkill for an Air Force that is configured primarily for tactical air support to surface forces,” he said.
> 
> “Besides, a concerted strategic bombing campaign to decimate the enemy’s war-fighting capability needs months to achieve results. That option is a non-starter for nuclear-armed belligerents, as much as it is for the rest of the world, which can’t sit back and watch the dangerous escalation,” he added.
> 
> “So, I stick to my previously professed contention that it is tactical fighters that we need first and foremost. Two dozen or so stealth fighters seems more of a ‘fashion’ statement.”
> 
> *He also highlights a perennial concern for Pakistan that may rule out the FC-31; “Who has got the money? Not Pakistan.”*
> 
> Whether a Pakistani order for the FC-31 will materialize is unclear, though *there will be an eventual need to replace the F-16, which is Pakistan’s most potent front-line combat aircraft.*
> 
> Analyst, author and former Australian defense attaché to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, said the FC-31 is a likely candidate, but perhaps not for some time.
> 
> “It’s being described in some quarters as an export machine, but that is bound to take a long, long time. Certainly there will have to be some sort of replacement for the F-16s, and it won’t be European or Russian, for obvious reasons, so it must be China,” he said.
> 
> “I think we can bet on the FC-31.”
> 
> Pakistan Continues JF-17 Upgrades, Possible Interest in FC-31 Emerges | Defense News | defensenews.com



Pakistan may not want to buy FC-31 but China would like to sell it for PAF flying their birds will give notoriety to the plane.

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## Basel

PAF never stated that they will purchase FC-31 or J-31, people only assumed it as CAC has not shown any other 5th gen jet for export and only SAC's bird is pitched for export for now, but who knows what rest in future.


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## Tayyab1796

PAF should opt for upgrades and improvement in JF17 (since we know alot about it) instead of buying a new weapons platform (which we don't know about and which is untried) ...


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## Basel

Some Chinese member on PDF posted image of a CAC version of Single engine 5th gen plane which was said to be shelved due to funds issue, but it can be JF-17 NG as there are news since long that stealthy version will be developed of JF-17.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Recently we did get some 1 Billion dollar credit line from Russia , time to use the credit line


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## he-man

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Recently we did get some 1 Billion dollar credit line from Russia , time to use the credit line



U should get su-35 from them


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## Donatello

PAF never wanted J-31 but another design.....however, due to recent western speculation, we can't say anything. One thing for sure is, PAF will procure Stealth Aircraft and it will most probably be from China. There is no question about it. Chinese would love to sell their next gen plane to a professional airforce like PAF.

Also, how the hell did 18 JF-17s go to China and no one noticed?

@Oscar


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## My-Analogous

We already discussed that in old thread @Oscar please closed this thread and merge with old one


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## Basel

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 156146



Dear, that is J-31 is just a prototype not full scale production model, at "Zhuhai Airshow 2014" FC-31 V.2.0 model was displayed which might become the production plane (picture below).


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> PAF never wanted J-31 but another design.....however, due to recent western speculation, we can't say anything. One thing for sure is, PAF will procure Stealth Aircraft and it will most probably be from China. There is no question about it. Chinese would love to sell their next gen plane to a professional airforce like PAF.
> 
> Also, how the hell did 18 JF-17s go to China and no one noticed?
> 
> @Oscar



Did PAF wanted this type of 5th gen jet design (picture below)?? it is concept posted by a Chinese PDF member and he claimed it is CACs design which also produced JF-17s, it might become JF-17 NG.

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## AsianLion

JF 17 Thunder and PAK FC-31 Stealth side by side, a sight to behold:

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## araz

cirr said:


> Two *Type S3-2* technology demonstrators were completed in 2011，laying the foundation for the research and development of the WS12 with TVC and 9800kgf for a thrust-weight ratio of over 9：
> 
> View attachment 156023
> 
> No one is denying that China does not have the capacity to build an engine. However to the extent that we as outsiders know Chinas attempts at building a reliable WS10 have so far floundered badly. One has to extrapolate the scenario from there to other projects to say that China is yet 3-5yrs away from a reliable engine production. Once they have success I one project the rest of the projects will be completed quickly .
> Araz


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## The SC

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Recently we did get some 1 Billion dollar credit line from Russia , time to use the credit line


That is most probably for the hellies.


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## PakEye

Tayyab1796 said:


> PAF should opt for upgrades and improvement in JF17 (since we know alot about it) instead of buying a new weapons platform (which we don't know about and which is untried) ...


yes JF-17 R&D and upgrades and improvement are base of our requirements.
But in presence of Russia and India (T-50) FGFA (India and Russia Joint Stealth Fighter) project the Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter in shape of J-31 will be very important.

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## The SC

* Worldwide media collective attention to China's fourth generation fighter: to subvert the existing concept of the fighter *
7:03:00 PM Zhao Yan 



Imagine the map of China's future fighterNovember 8, China's deputy commander of the Air Force take pride in the acceptance of CCTV Ho "face to face" column interview, said, according to the data reveal that China's fourth-generation fighters will soon be to conduct first flight, it is possible 8 to 10 years after the armed forces. A ripple. He revealed the news in the proud, the United States, "Aviation Week" website, the "Han Dynasty and the Defense Review" and other foreign media have speculated the performance of China's fourth-generation fighters, and possible difficulties encountered.Flexibility to overturn the traditional conceptGermany's "military technology" magazine that China is developing a fourth-generation fighter plane may be named F--14. The fourth-generation fighter planes (according to Russia's method of classification for the fifth-generation fighter) is the ability to meet the criteria for determining the "4S", that is super-maneuverability, supersonic cruise, the more visual range air combat and stealth capabilities. The fourth-generation fighters, and improved third-generation relative of three generations of half-planes, with the overwhelming technological advantage, is an unprecedented generational gap. At present, the world is already in service or access to the actual fourth-generation fighter plane developed by the United States with the "Raptor" F-22, F-35 and Russian T-50.The magazine is circulated through the imagination of online maps, China's fourth-generation fighter plane's aerodynamic shape was analyzed: The most unique design of aircraft outside the V-shaped full-motion tilting wing, replacing the vertical tail fin increases the level of the traditional structure of at the same time added a canard. Full-motion V-tail design for improving the aircraft stealth characteristics are very beneficial. And by reducing the control surface and the corresponding control mechanism also helps the aircraft to reduce weight and reduce drag. However, this design is bound to face a test of flight control system of the complex.Meanwhile, the planes will be installed telex flight control system for aircraft automatic stability control. From duck-style layout and belly of the inlet can be seen clearly that the overall design of the aircraft from the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation F -10 development experience gained and the extensive use of derived from the Russian MiG-1.44-type presentation machine technology.The magazine also considered that will be equipped with a -14 F active electronically scanned phased-array radar, with the same multi-objective operational capabilities. Moreover, it will be a major rival F-22A. At the same time, the United Kingdom, "Jane's Defense Weekly" reported that China's fourth generation of fighter aircraft models show proof of concept, the aircraft with the U.S. F-22A stealth fighters have some similarities, such as the built-in weapons, bomb compartment.Canada, "Han Defense Review," also published an article said that China's fourth-generation heavy fighter - F--14 is a new high-performance, multi-purpose, all-weather fighter. Aircraft, heavy-duty, low-cost-oriented thinking, high-performance, high survivability, high combat effectiveness of the design goals. "Han and Defense Review," also said that China's fourth-generation fighters will be extensive use of stealth materials and technology, aircraft taking off and landing performance, have been greatly improved its flexibility will completely subvert the people's fighter of existing concepts. 

The U.S. definition of four generations of machines must meet the "4S" standards, while at present only F-22, F-35 and Russian T-50 to achieve this standard.Performance will exceed the U.S. F-22 In China's fourth-generation fighter and the U.S. F-22 "Raptor" and the issue of performance comparison, according to Russia's "The Independent" reported that Russian military experts, Vyacheslav Navarro, Dr. King believed that China's fourth-generation fighters in order to be able to fight F-22, does not imitate the United States or Russia's program will highlight the performance in order to air the primary design goals, and give up other multi-functional to ensure the "hollow" combat power to achieve the level of F-22.At the same time, China's Jian, deputy chief designer of Chang Chi-kao -10 In an interview with the Hong Kong media, "Wen Wei Po," an interview, said the two "It's hard to do the comparison." He said the U.S. F-22 is the most advanced aircraft, it has some features we do not know. U.S. F-22 early in the development of the objectives set, and finally successfully developed the original vision has changed, technically there are new features.However, Chang Chi-kao said that from China's economic strength to the research strength, you can talk about China's fourth-generation aircraft to reach beyond the F-22 level. But when they can reach beyond the prize is not the individual is estimated that a 10-year as a unit. R & D objectives will ultimately be met or exceeded F-22 level, we must look at scientific research and progress, through the flight test to verify, but also the need to prove actual combat.In addition, according to the U.S. "ship to air weekly" Web site reported on the 13th, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Andrew Brooks, that there is no reason not to use F-22 standards to measure China's new aircraft design, because technology can be exported. International Assessment and Strategy Research Center, Richard Fisher also believes that China's actual F-22 is aimed at the technical level.At the same time, the "Han Dynasty, and Defense Review," that China's fourth-generation fighters will not rule out the F-22 or F-35 as an object of study of the possibilities, but China's fourth-generation fighters, there are two major problems need to tackle key problems, namely, the engine and radar. However, Singapore's "Lianhe Zaobao" is that China will soon be the fourth-generation fighter plane flight, which indicates that China's high-thrust turbofan aircraft engines and active phased array radar, the two key technologies, has made a major breakthrough. China unveiled the air during the National Day this year, police -2.0 thousand early warning aircraft, use is made of solid-state active phased array radar.Reported that the Chinese public offering of professional journals, but also published a large number of relevant research results: the "fourth-generation non-afterburning engine performance of supersonic cruise research", "fourth-generation fighters of the concept of Integrated Avionics System", "the first four-generation fighter operational requirements ", etc.. Are reports bluntly said: China's aviation industry for aircraft and stealth technology for a long time on research and testing, in the structural design, materials and coatings research has made a lot of success is entirely possible through efforts designed to reach the fourth generation of requirements of stealth fighter planes. 



Imagine the map of China's future fighterThe gap with the West getting smaller and smaller Maiden flight of China's fourth-generation fighters will soon shows that China has become the world's first three to enter the actual development process of the fourth-generation fighters of the country, already has a say in the field of high-end fighter. At present, although China's new generation military aircraft and Western countries there are gaps, but this gap is gradually being reduced, and smaller and smaller.At present, China can not only develop and produce a model of the aircraft, but also developed several series, and was a complete fighter aviation equipment system. Can be seen from this year's National Day military parade in front of empty police -2,000, empty police -200, including the back and the F -11 F -10, etc., which are independently developed by China.In particular, the forthcoming breakthrough in China's fourth-generation fighters, the Chinese 200-ton large-scale military aircraft, is also about to debut, and its successful development will compensate for the Chinese Air Force has long gaps in this area. It is reported that China Aviation Group, Hu Xiaofeng, general manager of Aircraft Corporation announced the November 4: "The Chinese Air Force military aircraft and a specific kind, 200-ton large aircraft will be unveiled at the end of the year."The U.S. "ship an empty magazine" site on the 13th reported that China's 200-ton large-scale military aircraft, using universal high-wing, T-tail design. Wing round the top of the fuselage, rather than in the middle of the fuselage, as this will affect the aircraft's available space. The main engine installed in the high protruding part of the high degree of cockpit electronics, all kinds of information through the electronic screen display 5 at a glance."Youth Reference" is reported that China's newly developed 200-ton large military aircraft, as if Il-76MD. Il-76MD is an improved version of Il -76, take-off weight of 200 tons, a maximum range of 9,000 kilometers, fully loaded range of 4,500 kilometers. IL -76, a former Soviet Union in the last century, developed in the late 60's long-range transport aircraft, capable of carrying 40 tons of military supplies all-weather flight.Reported that China's large military aircraft using advanced materials and engine technology, the main performance will be improved, close to the U.S. Air Force's "Globemaster" C-17 heavy transport aircraft.J -10 R & D success of the Chinese bid farewell to "imitation," the era of self-research and development into the new era of fighter planes; and fourth-generation fighter's first flight will mark a Chinese fighter R & D capability achieved leapfrog development, and its successful development and service will greatly enhance China's air capacity, change has long lagged behind developed countries in the face of aerial equipment.

Worldwide media collective attention to China's fourth generation fighter: to subvert the existing concept of the fighter - China Military Report

And this was in 2009!

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## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> Also, how the hell did 18 JF-17s go to China and no one noticed?
> 
> @Oscar



Hi,

I missed that news---could you plz elaborate. Thanks.


----------



## Kompromat

China Unveils New Stealth Fighter in a Show of Strength


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## mehboobkz

TOPGUN said:


> One can take it all the way to the bank that these babies will be in PAF's hands very soon , just watch and see GOD is great.




Pakistan Plans To Buy Chinese FC-31 Stealth Aircraft

_China on Friday ignored questions about Pakistan plan to procure the fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 Shenyang, according to a media reports._


----------



## tarrar

JF17 is NOT a solution for everything, it is good JF17 is getting good updates but that does not mean JF17 has become a one man army, no. PAF needs new fighter jets & in my opinion FC31 is a good pick by PAF & they should go for it.

Now old & dead mirages are real concern here, PAF should go for J10B to replace them. I will say thing again JF17 is NOT a one man army & hence PAF should not see JF17 as only solution.


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## tarrar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions



TOT & sharing of knowledge is the best thing to go for.


----------



## Donatello

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan continues to proceed with improvements to its JF-17 Thunder jet fighter program, but the recent Zhuhai air show also revealed possible longer term ambitions to acquire stealth aircraft, namely the Shenyang FC-31.
> 
> According to Pakistan officials at Zhuhai, progress is being made to improve the JF-17’s avionics and software, and to fix a probe.
> 
> Kaiser Tufail, analyst, author and former air commodore, said these upgrades may not require the aircraft to be sent back to the factory at Pakistani Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, but could be handled locally at unit level.
> 
> “As flight trials with different weapons are getting completed, it is time for hardware and software upgrades. I am not sure if these would be done at unit level or factory level; perhaps the former.”
> 
> Though the upgrades are not a radical departure from the Block I standard, Tufail nevertheless has “no doubt that they would improve the operational readiness considerably” for the Air Force.
> 
> What the future holds for the fighter is uncertain as details of a Block III variant have not been revealed, and Tufail says at present “no one seems willing to talk about them.”
> 
> Similarly, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said only reasonable speculation can made at present.
> 
> “Block-III is conceptual right now but most likely will see an AESA radar, HMD [helmet-mounted display] and some other avionics improvements. I am not sure if the airframe will be further modified for RCS [radar cross-section] reduction or airframe life enhancements. We just have to wait and see,” he said.
> 
> The perennial question regarding the JF-17, however, is its hitherto lack of export orders. Shabbir highlights the disruption facing the fighter’s most likely customers, but is still optimistic.
> 
> “Many of the countries that are probable JF-17 buyers have had political or financial turmoil but it is highly likely that an order will be won in 2015.”
> 
> *Nevertheless, Pakistan revealed that a squadron of 18 JF-17s recently took part in a major exercise in western China, which marks the type’s first large-scale deployment.*
> 
> Meanwhile, although Pakistan’s apparent interest in the FC-31 has caused a stir, Tufail maintains such an aircraft is not required.
> 
> “It seems to be a knee-jerk statement without much substance at this point in time,” he said.
> 
> “While stealth capability is welcome, the long-range capability that goes with this aircraft may be an overkill for an Air Force that is configured primarily for tactical air support to surface forces,” he said.
> 
> “Besides, a concerted strategic bombing campaign to decimate the enemy’s war-fighting capability needs months to achieve results. That option is a non-starter for nuclear-armed belligerents, as much as it is for the rest of the world, which can’t sit back and watch the dangerous escalation,” he added.
> 
> “So, I stick to my previously professed contention that it is tactical fighters that we need first and foremost. Two dozen or so stealth fighters seems more of a ‘fashion’ statement.”
> 
> He also highlights a perennial concern for Pakistan that may rule out the FC-31; “Who has got the money? Not Pakistan.”
> 
> Whether a Pakistani order for the FC-31 will materialize is unclear, though there will be an eventual need to replace the F-16, which is Pakistan’s most potent front-line combat aircraft.
> 
> Analyst, author and former Australian defense attaché to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, said the FC-31 is a likely candidate, but perhaps not for some time.
> 
> “It’s being described in some quarters as an export machine, but that is bound to take a long, long time. Certainly there will have to be some sort of replacement for the F-16s, and it won’t be European or Russian, for obvious reasons, so it must be China,” he said.
> 
> “I think we can bet on the FC-31.”
> 
> Pakistan Continues JF-17 Upgrades, Possible Interest in FC-31 Emerges | Defense News | defensenews.com





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I missed that news---could you plz elaborate. Thanks.



Sir, read the above quoted post.....


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## SQ8

Pretty sure this thread will end up the same way as with the J-10B "FC-20" reports. 
First it was "Coming sooN". 
Next it was "coming"... when yours truly said it wont be
Then it was "Probably coming". 
Finally it became "We never wanted them anyway". 

This aircraft is NOT coming unless or until a massive cash injection is made into the PAF. The rest of the visits and rumours are all just that; sightseeing.

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## Stephen Cohen

@Oscar Sir 

I believe that for China making a new J 31 is* easier *;considering Twin engines
and new avionics including AESA ; A bigger airframe ie more space
than making a JF 17 BLOCK 3 with AESA ;RCS reduction ; composites ie a new airframe

You have earlier said in Another thread that AESA in JF 17 will require
redesigning the airframe since it requires more space as well as cooling equipment

A single engined Jf 17 with RD 93 has its limitations in what all equipment
can be fit into it


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## SQ8

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Oscar Sir
> 
> I believe that for China making a new J 31 is* easier *;considering Twin engines
> and new avionics including AESA ; A bigger airframe ie more space
> than making a JF 17 BLOCK 3 with AESA ;RCS reduction ; composites ie a new airframe
> 
> You have earlier said in Another thread that AESA in JF 17 will require
> redesigning the airframe since it requires more space as well as cooling equipment
> 
> A single engined Jf 17 with RD 93 has its limitations in what all equipment
> can be fit into it




YES

I stated that the AESA requires a cooling solution, nothing more.


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## Max Pain

SSG-Korea said:


> Korea is Looking towards to his own sustainable and reliable program but it mostly based on western system. Korea is happy to help Pakistani friends in MBT K2 too as it much advance tank. However, fighter KAI KF-X is still progress and Pakistan can be participate in it.


we already have Al Khalid, and we're quite satisfied by it.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

lol, that last comment sure was off topic answer went from Stealth to Tanks


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## TOPGUN

mehboobkz said:


> Pakistan Plans To Buy Chinese FC-31 Stealth Aircraft
> 
> _China on Friday ignored questions about Pakistan plan to procure the fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 Shenyang, according to a media reports._




Thanks for showing nonsense , something of great importance is not going to be talked about in the media for everyone's joy but you don't have to worry because this will take place in years to come then you can read all about it all over again .


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## The SC

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Oscar Sir
> 
> I believe that for China making a new J 31 is* easier *;considering Twin engines
> and new avionics including AESA ; A bigger airframe ie more space
> than making a JF 17 BLOCK 3 with AESA ;RCS reduction ; composites ie a new airframe
> 
> You have earlier said in Another thread that AESA in JF 17 will require
> redesigning the airframe since it requires more space as well as cooling equipment
> 
> A single engined Jf 17 with RD 93 has its limitations in what all equipment
> can be fit into it


What about the Gripen, The F-16, The Mirage 2000, they are all single engined !? 
I think what is concerning you the most is the variety of weapons the JF-17 is already capable of carrying, they are just awesome, and still growing. With an AESA radar they will become more potent yet. As for the RD 93 engines, they are more than enough as stop gap.


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## Super Falcon

Yaaar first buy j 10 than think for j 31


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## Kompromat

Airshow China 2014: AVIC unveils FC-31 export fighter concept - IHS Jane's 360

China flight tests J-31 stealth fighter during Zhuhai airshow - Airforce Technology


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## mehboobkz

TOPGUN said:


> Thanks for showing nonsense , something of great importance is not going to be talked about in the media for everyone's joy but you don't have to worry because this will take place in years to come then you can read all about it all over again .



You just contradicted yourself, without ever realizing it.

On one hand it is something of a great importance, and on the other it is nonsense.


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## melb4aust

Oscar said:


> Pretty sure this thread will end up the same way as with the J-10B "FC-20" reports.
> First it was "Coming sooN".
> Next it was "coming"... when yours truly said it wont be
> Then it was "Probably coming".
> Finally it became "We never wanted them anyway".
> 
> This aircraft is NOT coming unless or until a massive cash injection is made into the PAF. The rest of the visits and rumours are all just that; sightseeing.



Pardon me for jumping into thread which is nothing more than a fan boy's dream as truly highlighted by Oscar above. I spent some early days on this forum and had a chance get along with some really nice members like WindJammer, Oscar, Mastan Khan, Blain, Jana shah, Neo, Sir Muradk.

So my point is I came back into this forum after such long time and saw members still brigging about an aircraft which is not even being manufactured or so called completed. Induction with PLAF itself is far ahead. Personally I would love to carry on and comment on stuff which we already have or perhaps already ordered. A country which is already starving while having an exceptional poverty rate is even facing an hard time affording F-16 project alone. History of long lived sanctions on procuring spares and other military equipment for the last few decades has also left a dent on military modernisation. Political turmoil and sheer corruption while becoming a lethal termite has eaten us away and our inner beings. Thanks to few cost effective projects like JF-17 & Al-Khalid we still hold some honor to speak proudly about indigenously produced gear.

Summing up in short to say; we currently owe over USD13 Billion to IMF alone, procuring such projects in near future is far from reality however modernisation will stay effective probably and surely through by other means.

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## HRK

melb4aust said:


> Summing up in short to say; we currently owe over USD13 Billion to IMF alone,



As of End Jun 2014 it was $ 3.020 billion
Thought IMF has approved $ 6.68 billion under Extended Fund Facility (EFF) 

plz read the following links:
1- IMF 
Press Release: IMF Executive Board Approves 3-Year, US$6.64 Billion Extended Arrangement for Pakistan

IMF Program Note on Pakistan

Transactions with the Fund, Disbursements and Repayments Detail, Pakistan

Transactions with the Fund, Pakistan

2- SBP
http://www.sbp.org.pk/m_policy/2014/MPS-Sep-2014-Compendium.pdf


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## TOPGUN

mehboobkz said:


> You just contradicted yourself, without ever realizing it.
> 
> On one hand it is something of a great importance, and on the other it is nonsense.



I didn't contradict jack what you read is what it was meant for you to understand simply ...


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## mehboobkz

TOPGUN said:


> I didn't contradict jack what you read is what it was meant for you to understand simply ...



Keep the change.


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## melb4aust

HRK said:


> As of End Jun 2014 it was $ 3.020 billion
> Thought IMF has approved $ 6.68 billion under Extended Fund Facility (EFF)
> 
> plz read the following links:
> 1- IMF
> Press Release: IMF Executive Board Approves 3-Year, US$6.64 Billion Extended Arrangement for Pakistan
> 
> IMF Program Note on Pakistan
> 
> Transactions with the Fund, Disbursements and Repayments Detail, Pakistan
> 
> Transactions with the Fund, Pakistan
> 
> 2- SBP
> http://www.sbp.org.pk/m_policy/2014/MPS-Sep-2014-Compendium.pdf



Look mate, figures I provided above regarding IMF loan were from some random web extract. And were quoted for the purpose to prove my point rather to discuss economic structure all alone. The source u gave from State Bank is relatively more accurate than anything thus depicting figures from 3rd quarter and I certainly believe that they will be a lot different in January 2015 when Monitory Policy after the last quarter will be declared.


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## melb4aust

Now getting back to the topic again. News indeed is already there regarding the procurement of stealth fighter jets from China.

*Pak to counter Indian air force aerial dominance * 
* December 02, 2014 

 
ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani military authorities are determined to acquire 30 to 40 fourth generation stealth fighter (FC-31) aircrafts from China with a view to pre-empting the rapidly increasing aerial dominance of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the region.

Conceding that senior Pakistani defence officials were already holding talks with their Chinese counterparts to acquire the fourth generation stealth aircrafts (also called Shenyang FC¬31 Multi-Purpose Medium Fighter Jets), informed sources in the security establishment said that Pakistan has been made to approach China and Russia to fulfill its defence procurements as the Pak-US defence ties continue to chill, despite General Raheel Shareefs recent visit to the United States.

The Pakistani defence officials are already in the process of inking an agreement with Russia to purchase 20 Mi-35 gunship helicopters which can be operated in the mountainous terrain of the Waziristan region where a military operation is in full swing against the Taliban militants.

The sources said Pakistan wants to procure the Chinese FC¬31 aircraft as a part of its ongoing efforts to boost the air combat capabilities of the PAF and offset the growing strength of the Indian Air Force in the region.

International media reports say China is offering its 18 ton J-31 stealth fighter to export customers as the FC-31.

The FC-31 stealth fighter jet reportedly matches a strong need for fifth generation fighters by the Pakistan Air Force, which is already struggling to find an aircraft to go up against the Russian-made T-50 fifth-generation fighter, being acquired by India.

The twin-engine FC-31 fighter jet resembles the American Air Force’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, being produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation. 

FC-31 is the export version of the Shenyang J-31 which is already flying since 2012 and is powered by two Russian-made engines.

Designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions, the Pakistan Air Force intends to buy FC-31 to replace the American-made F-16s, although it is to employ tactical rather than stealth aircraft in actual missions to support ground troops.

Being produced by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, China’s Shenyang FC-31 Fighter Jet is intended to be a rival to the American F-35 and Russian Sukhoi Su-35. The Chinese fighter jet was displayed at the recently held air show in China’s Zhuhai city in Guangdong Province.

gulftoday.ae | Pak to counter Indian air force aerial dominance
*
The credibility of the article itself goes suspicious when it say PAF intends to buy FC-31 in order to replace American made F-16s. Any how I am out of this debate regarding Pakistans future procurement.


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## jupiter2007

Writer is confused, Pakistan's F-16 inventory is going to increase in next 3 years and FC-31 will take at least 5 years before it goes in serial production.


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## TOPGUN

mehboobkz said:


> Keep the change.




Keep up the trolling


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## araz

melb4aust said:


> Now getting back to the topic again. News indeed is already there regarding the procurement of stealth fighter jets from China.
> 
> *Pak to counter Indian air force aerial dominance *
> * December 02, 2014
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani military authorities are determined to acquire 30 to 40 fourth generation stealth fighter (FC-31) aircrafts from China with a view to pre-empting the rapidly increasing aerial dominance of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the region.
> 
> Conceding that senior Pakistani defence officials were already holding talks with their Chinese counterparts to acquire the fourth generation stealth aircrafts (also called Shenyang FC¬31 Multi-Purpose Medium Fighter Jets), informed sources in the security establishment said that Pakistan has been made to approach China and Russia to fulfill its defence procurements as the Pak-US defence ties continue to chill, despite General Raheel Shareefs recent visit to the United States.
> 
> The Pakistani defence officials are already in the process of inking an agreement with Russia to purchase 20 Mi-35 gunship helicopters which can be operated in the mountainous terrain of the Waziristan region where a military operation is in full swing against the Taliban militants.
> 
> The sources said Pakistan wants to procure the Chinese FC¬31 aircraft as a part of its ongoing efforts to boost the air combat capabilities of the PAF and offset the growing strength of the Indian Air Force in the region.
> 
> International media reports say China is offering its 18 ton J-31 stealth fighter to export customers as the FC-31.
> 
> The FC-31 stealth fighter jet reportedly matches a strong need for fifth generation fighters by the Pakistan Air Force, which is already struggling to find an aircraft to go up against the Russian-made T-50 fifth-generation fighter, being acquired by India.
> 
> The twin-engine FC-31 fighter jet resembles the American Air Force’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, being produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation.
> 
> FC-31 is the export version of the Shenyang J-31 which is already flying since 2012 and is powered by two Russian-made engines.
> 
> Designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions, the Pakistan Air Force intends to buy FC-31 to replace the American-made F-16s, although it is to employ tactical rather than stealth aircraft in actual missions to support ground troops.
> 
> Being produced by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, China’s Shenyang FC-31 Fighter Jet is intended to be a rival to the American F-35 and Russian Sukhoi Su-35. The Chinese fighter jet was displayed at the recently held air show in China’s Zhuhai city in Guangdong Province.
> 
> gulftoday.ae | Pak to counter Indian air force aerial dominance
> *
> The credibility of the article itself goes suspicious when it say PAF intends to buy FC-31 in order to replace American made F-16s. Any how I am out of this debate regarding Pakistans future procurement.


I agree that the news is probably premature. However having looked at the situation it seems a lot more sensible to go for J31 than J10 B. The advantages of this move are many. Firstly a PAF contingent is already in China. J31 involvement for them means familiarisation with the complexities of designing and producing 5th generation platforms. This experience can percolate down to JFT and its modernisation in subsequent blocks. PAF choices are limited in any case and the cost benefits exercise would show significant advantages of involvement in this venture as compared to others. Similarly Chinese experience in design and manufacturing of J20 will cut the cost of j31 development. The only disadvantage is money but then small amounts over 5-7 years would be a very smart way of acquiring such skills and the advantages will certainly propel Pakistani aviation industry forward. However one significant disadvantage is the chinese failure in producing an appropriate engine to power the plane and this maybe a significant disadvantage. All said and done, I think the decision has sound logic behind it . However only people with first hand knowledge of the project can determine what would be the best way and time to join the project.
Araz


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## Rafi

araz said:


> I agree that the news is probably premature. However having looked at the situation it seems a lot more sensible to go for J31 than J10 B. The advantages of this move are many. Firstly a PAF contingent is already in China. J31 involvement for them means familiarisation with the complexities of designing and producing 5th generation platforms. This experience can percolate down to JFT and its modernisation in subsequent blocks. PAF cboices are limited in any case and the cost benefits exercise would show significant advantages of involvement in this venture as compared to others. Similarly Chinese e perience in design and manufacturing of J20 will cut the cost of j31 development. The only disadvantage is money but then small amountsover 5-7 years would be a very smart way of acquiring such skills and the advantages will certainly propel Pakistani aviation industry forward.
> I think the decision has sound logic behind it . However only people with first hand knowledge of the project can determine what would be the best way and time to join the project.
> Araz



Pakistani Defense Officials have even been shown around the J20, not that it is for sale, but shows the level of comfort the two countries have around each other.

I have been saying for years (read PAKDEF), that we have been shown this project from it's earliest days, and have been briefed on it's development constantly.

Regarding purchasing, it is inevitable, pace will depend upon - on the adversary's own purchase of 5th Gen, but there is every likelyhood that we will get ours first.

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## araz

Rafi.
Frankly with Rafale update M2Ks and mig 29s not to mention pakfa we dont have any other option but to go for J31. I am aware of the level of comfort and trust between Pak and China. On our part we too have done our fair share to help out at key moments.
Araz

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## Rafi

araz said:


> Rafi.
> Frankly with Rafale update M2Ks and mig 29s not to mention pakfa we dont have any other option but to go for J31. I am aware of the level of comfort and trust between Pak and China. On our part we too have done our fair share to help out at key moments.
> Araz



Definitely - this aircraft is so potent that it's induction will negate alot of the enemies investment.

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## black-hawk_101

What is the cost of J-31? and will Jordan look towards it?


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## Storm Force

As seniors members have tried to explain this thread is premature to the extreme.

The j31 is years behind in it's development cycle as compared to both j20 and pak fa. 

Eg j31 there is one single plane a tech demonstrator with less than fifty flights flown.

The pak fa and j20 have half dozen prototypes and four hundred test flights plus. 

J31 will enter service but three to five years after the j20/pak fa. 

Educated guess plaaf will get j31 between 2020-2022.

Exports 2025

Way way way to early to start a thread.

We have no idea or concept.of engines
Radars weapons ew suites range payload performance . 

Give the plane a chance to grow. 

If you can't wait then bang the door of the usa and get f35.

I will refrain from mentioning finances fir fear of causing unrest.

For those fearing Indian Fgfa I can tell you now this won't happen until 2025


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## Ultima Thule

Storm Force said:


> As seniors members have tried to explain this thread is premature to the extreme.
> 
> The j31 is years behind in it's development cycle as compared to both j20 and pak fa.
> 
> Eg j31 there is one single plane a tech demonstrator with less than fifty flights flown.
> 
> The pak fa and j20 have half dozen prototypes and four hundred test flights plus.
> 
> J31 will enter service but three to five years after the j20/pak fa.
> 
> Educated guess plaaf will get j31 between 2020-2022.
> 
> Exports 2025
> 
> Way way way to early to start a thread.
> 
> We have no idea or concept.of engines
> Radars weapons ew suites range payload performance .
> 
> Give the plane a chance to grow.
> 
> If you can't wait then bang the door of the usa and get f35.
> 
> I will refrain from mentioning finances fir fear of causing unrest.
> 
> For those fearing Indian Fgfa I can tell you now this won't happen until 2025


you are on the spot sir it is too early to start this kind of thread


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## fatman17

*FC-31 / J-31 (Jianjiji-31 Fighter aircraft 31)*

China lacks the extensive electronic support [eg, RIVET JOINT, AWACS, etc] and aerial refueling capabilities that American stealth aicraft can rely upon. The J-31, also designated the FC-31 (Fighter China 31), might achieve an initial operational capability in the 2025 timeframe.

The Chinese military leaked the first photos of long-rumored new stealth fighter, the second model revealed in China. The J-31 attracted wide public attention in June when some online pictures showed the cutting-edge fighter fully wrapped but with its futuristic shape still discernible. The J-31 fighter, named Falcon Eagle in Chinese, took its first flight at 10:32 am Beijing local time, Wednesday 31 October 2012, along with two J-11BS fighter jets from the runway of Shenyang Aircraft Corp, the producer and researcher of the fighter in Liaoning Province.

Shenyang Aircraft Industry Group (SAC), one of the leading aircraft design and manufacturing corporations of China’s aviation industry, revealed the prototype of what might eventually become Chinese analog to the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The new aircraft, said to be designated the J-31 or to have the codename F-60, has external characteristics that suggest to some that it could be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers. The J-31 prototype jet has the side number 31001, which is the origin of the J-31 nomenclature, since the first two J-20 prototypes had “2001” and “2002” side numbers, respectively.

Photos of a model labeled F-60 were posted online as early as September 2011. These images show only scaled-down models, not the real thing, with one notable difference being the single wheel in the model versus the paired nose-wheels in the real deal. This radio-controlled F-60 model had been built with the Shenyang University of Aeronautics and Astronautics [SUAA]. In June 2012 a photograph of a full scale airframe being transported on a truck trailer, obscured by netting, appeared online.

Though no characteristics of the prototype have been unveiled, one major difference is obvious: unlike its American relative, China’s J-31 has two engines, as does the previously revealed J-20. The pictures of the Chinese technology demonstrator suggest that the engines the aircraft is currently equipped with do not have thrust vectoring nozzles. Possibly the prototype is at an early a stage of testing, and might be fitted with a more sophisticated and powerful propulsion package at a later date. The twin vertical tail and wide-spaced ram air inlets are reminiscent of these features on the Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor.

The J-31 inlet design features diverterless supersonic inlet [DSI] similar in concept to that used on the American F-35. The F-35's diverterless inlet lightens the overall weight of the aircraft. Traditional aircraft inlets were comprised of many moving parts and are much heavier than newer diverterless inlets. The diverterless inlet also eliminates all moving parts. DSI moved from concept to reality when it was flown on a Block 30 F-16 in a highly successful demonstration program consisting of twelve flights flown in nine days in December 1996.
Unlike the Russians and Indians, whose joint project to develop a fifth generation aircraft produced a single design, the Chinese military followed the American example and placed its bets on two horses: Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, which is already testing the J-20 fifth generation heavy combat aircraft, and Shenyang Aircraft Industry Group with its F-31/F-60 aircraft. It is unclear which America practice the Chinese have emulated. Possibly this is like the Advanced Tactical Fighter and Joint Strike Fighter programs, in which competing designs were flight tested before one was selected for production. Or possibly the J-31 and J-20 are not to be regarded as competitors, but as complementary pair such as the F-22 and F-35, because to some it appeared the aircraft may have different specializations.

The problem with the competitive fly-off explanation is that the first flight of the J-20 came in January 2010, nearly two years before the first flight of the J-31. This belies a competitive fly-off, absent a rather spectacular schedule delay in the J-31, or an extremely sedate development schedule in which such a two year discrepancy is insignficant in the long view. The complementary role explanation fails due to the apparent similarity in size. Unlike the large twin-engine air-superiority F-22 and smaller single engine air-to-ground F-35, both the graceful J-20 and the slightly shorter but visibly chunkier J-31 are twin-engined, presumably with the same WS10 Taihang engines. If the total weight of the shorter J-31 was signficiantly less than that of the J-20 [a fact not in evidence], either the J-31 would seem rather over-powered, or the J-20 somewhat under-powered.

*Carrier-based Deployment*
China's J-31 stealth fighter may also be used on the carrier in future. The Liaoning would have about 40 fixed-wing aircraft on board. Possibly the complementarity lies in the J-20 being destined for land-based operations, while the J-31 is slated to go down to the sea in ships. Carrier based aircraft are normally twin-engined for safety reasons, and the Chinese might have decided that the greater structural strength needed for carrier operations would be wasted on a land-based J-20.

The shorter J-31 would also make for easier handling on an aircraft carrier, where space is at a premium. The Chinese might also have decided that little was to be gained from trying to apply a common airframe to both the land and carrier missions. The F-4 Phantom succeeded in this effort, but the American F-35 was bedeviled by the requirements of being all things to all services.

The Chinese Military Review website published computer-generated images of the J-31 fifth generation fighter jet in action, with a variety of air to air missiles. On at least two images the aircraft is depicted with an extended tailhook that sea-based aircraft use to stop after landing on the deck of an aircraft carrier. The two-wheeled front rack chassis of the J-31 prototype also suggests the aircraft was designed for naval use, facilitating the attachment of the holdback device installed on the nosegear to the catapult, like sea-based versions of Dassault’s Rafale in France, Lockheed Martin’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and the Russian Su-33. There is no indications that the J-31 prototype is capable of short take off and vertical landing, a capability of the F-35B STOVL variant.

Sun Cong is chief designer of the J-15 carrier-borne fighter jet and a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. Sun is also the chief designer of the J-31. He hopes the J-31 can pair up with J-20 in the future in tasks of both high and low altitudes, to maintain continuing striking capability.

In March 2013, the chief architect of the J-31 fighter Sun Cong confirmed that the improved version of the J-31 is expected to become China's next generation of carrier-based aircraft. Analysts believe that the J-31 fighter can act as a carrier-borne aircraft. One of the important factors affecting this question is the configuration of the landing gear. The front landing gear of the J-31 is designed with double wheels (the J-20, which is twice the weight, only has single front wheel), while the back landing gear adopts a dogleg structure - both these features provide strong supporting capacity and excellent shock resistance.

Considering that a carrier-borne aircraft requires the ability to withstand a greater impact when landing on an aircraft carrier than when landing on land, the J-31 seems designed to meet the requirements of a carrier-borne landing. In addition, it has been reported that if the J-31 is deployed on the aircraft carrier, it may combine in light-weight battle formations with the early-service J-15.

*Engine Problems*
Early reports indicate that the J-31 is equipped with twin Russian RD-93 engines - news that has been confirmed by Russia's MiG Aircraft Corporation. The Fierce Dragon light fighter developed jointly by China and Pakistan is also equipped with this model of engine. Judged against the specifications of fourth-generation aircraft, the RD-93 engine seems somewhat old,the north face hyvent, but during prototype testing the use of a stable engine with mature technology is the safest approach. Sources point out that once in service, the J-31 will hopefully carry Chinese-developed WS-13 engine, which has significantly improved performance in comparison with the RD-93.

The current weak point of the J-31 - and the J-20, and the non-stealthy J-15 [also known as the Flying Shark, which is said to be a match for US F-18 Hornet fighters] - is its Russia-made Al-31 engines, which are less powerful than those of the American F-35 fighter. However, these fighters will be more competitive in future when the Chinese jets is equipped with more powerful Chinese engines, because the American F-35 has only a single engine.

As is well known, both Chengdu’s J-20 and Shenyang’s J-31 face the problem of the lack of reliable Chinese-made jet engines with technical characteristics appropriate for a fifth generation fighter. Initially both may be fitted with Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofans from Russia. China continues to buy Russian military jet engines. The WS10 Taihang, China's flagship jet fighter engine, remained seriously flawed after a quarter of century of development effort. The WS10 engine was intended to equip the new J-10 fighter, low-rate initial production of which was authorised in 2002. But at least the initial run of fifty J-10 aircraft were to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines instead. The WS10 engine was reverse-engineered from the CFM-56 commercial turbofan, which in turn was a derivative of the General Electric F101 engine originally designed for the 1960s-era Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft, which was eventually deployed as the B-1 bomber. That is to say, after nearly a quarter century development effort on a four decade old design, China remained unable to produce a viable high performance fighter engine. It is expected that eventually both the J-20 and J-31 will be fitted with the WS15 engine, but the core engine for the WS-15 engine was first tested in April 2005, suggesting a long road ahead.

A Russian-made RD-93 engine will power the Chinese J-31 fifth generation fighter, Rosoboronexport official told RIA Novosti 10 NOvembe 2014. "J-31 with the Russian engine RD-93 is considered to be an export program, able to compete with the American F-35 fifth generation aircraft on the regional markets," Rosoboronexport’s Air Force Equipment Export Department Head Sergey Kornev said. "The program is ambitious, but very real, especially considering the high cost of F-35 and some problems with its development," Kornev added. Russian RD-93 engines are a variant of the RD-33 engines, initially developed to power MiG-29 fighters. The RD-93 was developed by Russia’s Klimov design bureau specifically for the FC-1 fighter, known in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder.

*Export Potential*
Since August 2013 China's fourth-generation stealth fighter, the J-31 Falcon Hawk, carried out more than three sets of trial flights at a rapidly increasing frequency. America's fourth-generation [according to Chinese taxonomy] equivalent has achieved huge market penetration, and Chinese analysts believe that the performance of the J-31 will make it a strong competitor in this market.

Although similar to the J-20 stealth fighter, the J-31's overall aerodynamic design and stealth appearance is not identical with J-20, which has a higher degree of public exposure. Military analysts prefer to compare the relation of J-31 and J-20 with that of the US Air Force F-22 and F-35. The J-31 and F-35 use the same DSI inlet (non-boundary layer separated lane supersonic inlet) design, the difference is, the F-35 uses a single engine to provide power, but J-31 is designed with double engines. In addition, some models of F-35 support the short distance/vertical landing; J-31 cannot do this for the time being.

China's Air Force test pilot expert Xu Yongling claims that the J-31's stealth aerodynamic design, stealth engine design and stealth coating design have all reached internationally advanced standards in stealth technology. He also claims that the J-31 possesses both stealth and a considerable payload capability. In addition, Xu Yongling says that China has its own considerations in the development of fourth-generation aircraft, taking account not only of the need for stealth, but also of its performance in air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, and the relevant weapons requirements. This means that in payload, the J-31 will prevail over the F-35.
A landmark in international military aviation history, the Chinese fourth-generation stealth aircraft will not only have a great impact on combat strategy, but also exercise a tremendous influence on geopolitics, especially on international relations and the geo-strategic situation in the Asia-Pacific region. The stealth fighter has gone beyond a simple weapons platform; its presence is now an indication of the balances and the strategic considerations at play among different countries.

It could be said that the high-tech weapon systems represented by stealth fighters are becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game. Chinese experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future and will steal the limelight from the F-35. China's fourth-generation aircraft will become a new option for those countries which have not yet made the decision to purchase the F-35. In particular for those countries which are excluded from access to US arms exports, China's fourth generation aircraft may be attractive. The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a potential threat to US arms manufacturers.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) showed interest in buying fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft FC-31 from China. Janes reported 12 November 2014 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai. Pakistani Defence Production minister Rana Tanveer Hussain said in late Novembe 2014 that the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities. According to Dawn, it was for the first time that a senior government functionary had confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft.

GS.org


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## Hurter

black-hawk_101 said:


> What is the cost of J-31? and will Jordan look towards it?



$80 Million according to one Chinese friend on this forum.


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## black-hawk_101

Junaid B said:


> $80 Million according to one Chinese friend on this forum.


Too much costly for PAF.


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## Hurter

black-hawk_101 said:


> Too much costly for PAF.



Its Stealth my friend. It should be costly. The production of J-31 is going to happen in the coming years. And there is possibility that our defence budget might increase in future so it wouldn't be hard to buy these birds.

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## black-hawk_101

Junaid B said:


> Its Stealth my friend. It should be costly. The production of J-31 is going to happen in the coming years. And there is possibility that our defence budget might increase in future so it wouldn't be hard to buy these birds.


I think our economy will only be good once we have privatized everything. So taxes money won't be used in running companies and instead these companies would be paying taxes to Govt. So taxes from people+consumer goods+companies will make a lot of money for Pakistan.

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## salman-1

Aircraft carrier landing trials are under way of FC-31


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## SQ8

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 162809
> 
> 
> Aircraft carrier landing trials are under way of FC-31



The photoshop is high in this one.

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## rockstarIN

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 162809
> 
> 
> Aircraft carrier landing trials are under way of FC-31




Add duel racks too


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## salman-1

No photo shop pictures are real. Carrier landing trials with trials are with full weapon load





It has outer hard points as well. Only waiting for surplus WS-10 engines for actual capability trials . WS-10 production is booked only for J-15/16 aircrafts

On Lower Deck Hanger of Chinese Aircraft carrier. These pictures confirm China working side by side both on Land and Coastal version. But Land version will mostly be offered for export only.USA reports say, its mostly competitive with FA-18E in capabilities except for the stealth shape. The stealth design is mostly copy of F-35

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## forcetrip

salman-1 said:


> No photo shop pictures are real. Carrier landing trials with trials are with full weapon load
> View attachment 162882
> 
> 
> It has outer hard points as well. Only waiting for surplus WS-10 engines for actual capability trials . WS-10 production is booked only for J-15/16 aircrafts
> 
> On Lower Deck Hanger of Chinese Aircraft carrier. These pictures confirm China working side by side both on Land and Coastal version. But Land version will mostly be offered for export only.USA reports say, its mostly competitive with FA-18E in capabilities except for the stealth shape. The stealth design is mostly copy of F-35
> View attachment 162908



It would be a good development but none of those pictures are authenticated.


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## Sinnerman108

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 162809
> 
> 
> Aircraft carrier landing trials are under way of FC-31



If it is stealth, it won't have external weapon mounts.

THINK !


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## krash

Hank Moody said:


> If it is stealth, it won't have external weapon mounts.
> 
> THINK !



Ummm....

F-35:










F-22:













salman-1 said:


> No photo shop pictures are real. Carrier landing trials with trials are with full weapon load
> View attachment 162882
> 
> 
> It has outer hard points as well. Only waiting for surplus WS-10 engines for actual capability trials . WS-10 production is booked only for J-15/16 aircrafts
> 
> On Lower Deck Hanger of Chinese Aircraft carrier. These pictures confirm China working side by side both on Land and Coastal version. But Land version will mostly be offered for export only.USA reports say, its mostly competitive with FA-18E in capabilities except for the stealth shape. The stealth design is mostly copy of F-35
> View attachment 162908



The first one is CGI belonging to a set that came out back in 2012. The second picture is again very old and of a small scale model stuck to a wall. See the below post from 2012,



Hu Songshan said:


> Concept design

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## SQ8

salman-1 said:


> No photo shop pictures are real. Carrier landing trials with trials are with full weapon load
> View attachment 162882
> 
> 
> It has outer hard points as well. Only waiting for surplus WS-10 engines for actual capability trials . WS-10 production is booked only for J-15/16 aircrafts
> 
> On Lower Deck Hanger of Chinese Aircraft carrier. These pictures confirm China working side by side both on Land and Coastal version. But Land version will mostly be offered for export only.USA reports say, its mostly competitive with FA-18E in capabilities except for the stealth shape. The stealth design is mostly copy of F-35
> View attachment 162908



Not even the F-35 would carry out carrier trials with its weapon bays open, so unless Shenyang wants to test how much clearance it gets from the slam on an aircraft carrier by seeing it it scrapes the doors.... It is a photoshop.. made with some effort but a photoshop.

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## learner

Its my conviction that J31 is very advanced and potent weapon. Its the future of Pakistan


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## salman-1

Oscar said:


> Not even the F-35 would carry out carrier trials with its weapon bays open, so unless Shenyang wants to test how much clearance it gets from the slam on an aircraft carrier by seeing it it scrapes the doors.... It is a photoshop.. made with some effort but a photoshop.



I dont know how old are these pictures, but i am 100% sure they are not photo shop. Clarity of weapons attached can be seen. All JF-17 weapon pictures are mostly PS. The arr ester hook is visible, It could also be a land platform made to the size of deck practice, which is not visible. The lower deck picture is taken from mobile camera and posted. It is a test prototype on the deck for sure.


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## LonE_WolF

black-hawk_101 said:


> So any possibility that Jordan, Oman, Yemen or any other MENA countries will also look towards license production of J-31 or J-20s?


Nishan_101 Alert   @Horus @Oscar


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## salman-1

First Picture F-22 and FC-31 comparson

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## black-hawk_101

a Dual seat version would be appreciable.


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## ghazi52

Great pictures.


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## The SC

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 163565
> 
> 
> View attachment 163566
> 
> 
> First Picture F-22 and FC-31 comparson


The difference in intakes is evidence that the concepts are different, without mentioning the exhaut systems.


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## lifesci

So what if the external pods / weapons were coated with absorbent material? Would it reduce the additional RCS incurred by externally loaded weapons?


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## salman-1

Few fuel tanks are designed for low RCS , other weapons are not configured or designed for low RCS. Its gonna be a whole new field of stealth design of weapons. Unless all Air forces are equipped with stealth fighters this trend is difficult to introduce


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## salman-1

News confirm Air force discussing with Chinese for the acquisition of FC-31 stealth fighter. Around 30-40 birds. I think minimum order will be 36 aircrafts to raise two squadrons . If 40 then 4 aircrafts will be OCS sqdrn but i think no twin seater is built for training. First simulation training will be done.

The real info required is what type of avionics are available for this so called fifth gen fighter. The F-35 uses Fusion cockpit concept which replaces the glass cockpit technology. Its like 3D version of avionics. A back view of Radar emission and firing weapons in all 360 degree. Does such tech exists with china 5th gen.

With Russian RD-93 or may be RD-93MA (if it exists) there is no chance of cruise control. Is there a Full all electronic quadruple fly by wire control system. AESA Radar range and firing modes. Ability to track how many targets and simultaneously engaging how many targets. What new Air to Air weapons for internal bay apart from SD-10 missiles. Chinese have not given enough info of FC-31 on any site. If its really






for export whats the price asked for it and with what package of avionics and weapons it has.


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## salman-1

F-35 Cockpit « DarkGovernment 
Check F-35 cockpit reviews by Pilots


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## 帅的一匹

Donatello said:


> TVC is useless. It doesn't make a stealth aircraft do wonders. Simply because, if you intend on using it in the wvr domain, you are pretty dead already......no point in having stealth then.....look first shoot first.
> Secondly, a HOBS missile offer a very high wide angle of attack so even if you pull 15Gs, the missile will come for you.
> Same with BVR that can outrun and out turn any 'TVC' equipped fighter.


I can't agree with you more. TVC is useless when it comes to steathy fighters. But it may help to reduce the many rudder surface to lower RCS(like tail fins).


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## krash

salman-1 said:


> I dont know how old are these pictures, *but i am 100% sure they are not photo shop.* Clarity of weapons attached can be seen. All JF-17 weapon pictures are mostly PS. The arr ester hook is visible, It could also be a land platform made to the size of deck practice, which is not visible. The lower deck picture is taken from mobile camera and posted. It is a test prototype on the deck for sure.



Scroll down:

Chinese JSF copy-ish surfaces... J-31? - F-35 versus XYZ


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## A2Z

Right now PAF should keep all its attentions on JF-17 and make it as lethal as possible, i am talking about AESA radar and better weapons (indigenous) and may be a naval variant as well. As far as J-31/F-60 is concerned we can not say anything until we get their deliveries or our pilots are training to fly them, similar news were heard about J-10 and their deliveries were supposed to have started by now.
The fact is J-31 wont be ready till 2030 or 2025 at least and when it is a reality the Chinese would first meet their own needs so there is no chance we will get it before 2035. So right now we need to concentrate on JF-17 since we are not getting any J-10s.


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## IrbiS

We still don't know if it can do anything right now, a questionable fact! Some say that it's a private gesture with company's investment targeted for export and less or no PLAAF/PLAN interest, hence slow development due to less capital may be wrong but even if you ignore it, there're other things to be taken in consideration as from PAF's view.

PAF can't afford two new platforms even if there were other options except Chinese, were available which unfortunately there're not. So whatever 5th gen. PAF's 'll choose, it would have to give most bang for less bucks. The number of jets too 'll be smaller, at least for initial years. 

So where does J-31 stands right now? Nowhere close where we want it. First of all, it needs a new pair of engines. There's talk about WS-19 with 20,000lbs of thrust but I'm not aware of program's status or likely RD-93MA with aroun 17,000lbs. Anyway, it should have an engine comparable or surpassing M88 with supercruise most definitely AND TW only if service(PAF) thinks needed. There is certainty to limited extent that currently flying ones may not even be carrying a radar, which 'll take time with development and testing plus it's code is gonna take time too, to be written and checked. Without software related work completed and advanced avionics installed, its sensor-fusion capabilities(one of the most important for future fighters) are not even born yet. Robust radio attack and defence capabilities with integrated avionics should also be priority but only possible after when above mentioned goals are completed(I think I've gone too far in this line, haven't I?) and secure datalink among whole other things.

Advanced armament should also be considered. Advanced short-to-medium range missile with most likely heat-seeeking head with lock after launch capability and datalink is essential with good HMD(BTW, currently even U.S F-22 and F-35 with AIM-9X lack lock after launch capability only to be fulfilled by Block II.AIM-9X has to 'see' the target first before launch meaning open the internal-bay door lock first then launch). PL-12 optimezed to maximum or a ram-jet powered bvr is the choice for future with extended range to stand a chance against foes carrying similar weapons. I hope its AAQ-40 looking EO system under chin works great for both air and ground use. Satellite and laser guided PGMs are essential plus some long-legged weapon too.

Majority here should be critical or think I'm flying too high. All I'm saying is that J-31 is an infant and needs time before we start speculating, and for small fleet of 5th gen. PAF should consider quality the most important to counter emerging and future threats.

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## Raihan Ordnance

Gd one


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## Ultima Thule

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> We still don't know if it can do anything right now, a questionable fact! Some say that it's a private gesture with company's investment targeted for export and less or no PLAAF/PLAN interest, hence slow development due to less capital may be wrong but even if you ignore it, there're other things to be taken in consideration as from PAF's view.
> 
> PAF can't afford two new platforms even if there were other options except Chinese, were available which unfortunately there're not. So whatever 5th gen. PAF's 'll choose, it would have to give most bang for less bucks. The number of jets too 'll be smaller, at least for initial years.
> 
> So where does J-31 stands right now? Nowhere close where we want it. First of all, it needs a new pair of engines. There's talk about WS-19 with 20,000lbs of thrust but I'm not aware of program's status or likely RD-93MA with aroun 17,000lbs. Anyway, it should have an engine comparable or surpassing M88 with supercruise most definitely AND TW only if service(PAF) thinks needed. There is certainty to limited extent that currently flying ones may not even be carrying a radar, which 'll take time with development and testing plus it's code is gonna take time too, to be written and checked. Without software related work completed and advanced avionics installed, its sensor-fusion capabilities(one of the most important for future fighters) are not even born yet. Robust radio attack and defence capabilities with integrated avionics should also be priority but only possible after when above mentioned goals are completed(I think I've gone too far in this line, haven't I?) and secure datalink among whole other things.
> 
> Advanced armament should also be considered. Advanced short-to-medium range missile with most likely heat-seeeking head with lock after launch capability and datalink is essential with good HMD(BTW, currently even U.S F-22 and F-35 with AIM-9X lack lock after launch capability only to be fulfilled by Block II.AIM-9X has to 'see' the target first before launch meaning open the internal-bay door lock first then launch). PL-12 optimezed to maximum or a ram-jet powered bvr is the choice for future with extended range to stand a chance against foes carrying similar weapons. I hope its AAQ-40 looking EO system under chin works great for both air and ground use. Satellite and laser guided PGMs are essential plus some long-legged weapon too.
> 
> Majority here should be critical or think I'm flying too high. All I'm saying is that J-31 is an infant and needs time before we start speculating, and for small fleet of 5th gen. PAF should consider quality the most important to counter emerging and future threats.


you are on the spot Mr


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> We still don't know if it can do anything right now, a questionable fact! Some say that it's a private gesture with company's investment targeted for export and less or no PLAAF/PLAN interest, hence slow development due to less capital may be wrong but even if you ignore it, there're other things to be taken in consideration as from PAF's view.
> 
> PAF can't afford two new platforms even if there were other options except Chinese, were available which unfortunately there're not. So whatever 5th gen. PAF's 'll choose, it would have to give most bang for less bucks. The number of jets too 'll be smaller, at least for initial years.
> 
> So where does J-31 stands right now? Nowhere close where we want it. First of all, it needs a new pair of engines. There's talk about WS-19 with 20,000lbs of thrust but I'm not aware of program's status or likely RD-93MA with aroun 17,000lbs. Anyway, it should have an engine comparable or surpassing M88 with supercruise most definitely AND TW only if service(PAF) thinks needed. There is certainty to limited extent that currently flying ones may not even be carrying a radar, which 'll take time with development and testing plus it's code is gonna take time too, to be written and checked. Without software related work completed and advanced avionics installed, its sensor-fusion capabilities(one of the most important for future fighters) are not even born yet. Robust radio attack and defence capabilities with integrated avionics should also be priority but only possible after when above mentioned goals are completed(I think I've gone too far in this line, haven't I?) and secure datalink among whole other things.
> 
> Advanced armament should also be considered. Advanced short-to-medium range missile with most likely heat-seeeking head with lock after launch capability and datalink is essential with good HMD(BTW, currently even U.S F-22 and F-35 with AIM-9X lack lock after launch capability only to be fulfilled by Block II.*AIM-9X has to 'see' the target first before launch meaning open the internal-bay door lock first then launch)*. PL-12 optimezed to maximum or a ram-jet powered bvr is the choice for future with extended range to stand a chance against foes carrying similar weapons. I hope its AAQ-40 looking EO system under chin works great for both air and ground use. Satellite and laser guided PGMs are essential plus some long-legged weapon too.
> 
> Majority here should be critical or think I'm flying too high. All I'm saying is that J-31 is an infant and needs time before we start speculating, and for small fleet of 5th gen. PAF should consider quality the most important to counter emerging and future threats.




I believe the optronics (EOTS) on board the F-35 can provide the target guidance to AIM9X via the data bus.....so opening the door may not be necessary.....secondly, even if the door is open, the missile seeker would need an unrestricted view of the target, which is difficult to obtain if the missile is packed inside.


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> I believe the optronics (EOTS) on board the F-35 can provide the target guidance to AIM9X via the data bus.....


How? Explain a little


Donatello said:


> secondly, even if the door is open, the missile seeker would need an unrestricted view of the target, which is difficult to obtain if the missile is packed inside.


That's the point. You gotta have equally capable weapons for the advanced platforms to get the best out of them


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> How? Explain a little


The EOTS can scan in the IR spectrum and hence provide the recognized target image to on board computer of the AIM9X ( correct me if am wrong there) because that is the whole point of the optronics on board the F-35....it can see in a lot of spectrums just like the FSO on board the Rafale.

Just like a true IIR (Imaging Infrared Seeker) on a missile can provide the image to the onboard plane. So if the aircraft doesn't have it's own IRST, as long as the missile is hooked up to the data lines of the aircraft, the missile seeker acts as an external imaging device. Of course, once the missile is launched, that capability is gone.


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> The EOTS can scan in the IR spectrum and hence provide the recognized target image to on board computer of the AIM9X ( correct me if am wrong there) because that is the whole point of the optronics on board the F-35....it can see in a lot of spectrums just like the FSO on board the Rafale.
> 
> Just like a true IIR (Imaging Infrared Seeker) on a missile can provide the image to the onboard plane. So if the aircraft doesn't have it's own IRST, as long as the missile is hooked up to the data lines of the aircraft, the missile seeker acts as an external imaging device. Of course, once the missile is launched, that capability is gone.



Imaging infrared doesn't mean that you take a snap of plane and feed it to your missile and ask it "Go buddy, find this guy in the sky and kill it". R-73 being an early example with substantial off-bore capability and later examples following which can be used with HMDs, When you look off-bore at the target missile's seeker too looks in that direction and locks-on and after launch due to extreme manueverability can turn highly off-bore and go to other direction than launching platform. Aim-9x is essentially this type, its fire-and-forget like the ones described above. It has to see the target before launch. MICA IR on the other hand is more advanced with Lock-on before Launch and Lock-on after launch capability with one way data-link.When used in conjunction with FSO, it can be devastating. Until recently, Integrated IRSTs could only be seen on MiG-29 and Su-27 with main reason being the passive detection of target without using radar, hence not being detected easily. MICA has a data-link, you can launch it and then provide targeting data from FSO.


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Imaging infrared doesn't mean that you take a snap of plane and feed it to your missile and ask it "Go buddy, find this guy in the sky and kill it". R-73 being an early example with substantial off-bore capability and later examples following which can be used with HMDs, When you look off-bore at the target missile's seeker too looks in that direction and locks-on and after launch due to extreme manueverability can turn highly off-bore and go to other direction than launching platform. Aim-9x is essentially this type, its fire-and-forget like the ones described above. It has to see the target before launch. MICA IR on the other hand is more advanced with Lock-on before Launch and Lock-on after launch capability with one way data-link.When used in conjunction with FSO, it can be devastating. Until recently, Integrated IRSTs could only be seen on MiG-29 and Su-27 with main reason being the passive detection of target without using radar, hence not being detected easily. MICA has a data-link, you can launch it and then provide targeting data from FSO.



That is why i mentioned the FSO, and the ETOS of F-35 is meant to fulfill the same function, albeit maybe with a newer missile. Basically, your onboard IRST is useless if you can detect a target passively but not be able to launch a weapon towards it, similar to the having a APG66/68 on the F-16 but no AIM120. In the case of an Active guided missile, you need initial targeting information anyway, the missile's own seeker is too small to detect at it's max range, so it is launched with the preset directions and the missile is updated with the latest info. As it nears the target it can get a lock by itself.

Though i don't know how effective the FSO like system would be when chasing a F-22/F-35 class target.......there should be enough infrared generated for the target to be detected. How does it work then?


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## Supply&Demand

_
During the airshow, the J-31/FC-31 revealed aerodynamic inefficiencies during flight maneuvers. The aircraft bled a lot of energy and the pilot had a hard time keeping the nose up during turns and other maneuvers. The afterburners also had to be engaged often to maintain a proper energy utilization curve. Flights were done when the jet was "clean," so results would be worse when fitted with a combat loadout._
_
China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News_


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## Viper0011.

salman-1 said:


> First Picture F-22 and FC-31 comparson



One of the pictures of -22 has one of the PAF's F-7 behind it right?


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## The SC

Supply&Demand said:


> _During the airshow, the J-31/FC-31 revealed aerodynamic inefficiencies during flight maneuvers. The aircraft bled a lot of energy and the pilot had a hard time keeping the nose up during turns and other maneuvers. The afterburners also had to be engaged often to maintain a proper energy utilization curve. Flights were done when the jet was "clean," so results would be worse when fitted with a combat loadout.
> 
> China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News_



_Rarely do the Chinese display an aircraft ahead of the completion of its development, which caused the ground swell when the FC-31 made headlines at the Chinese air show. Plenty of cameras from across the globe were pointed into the sky as foreign military leaders got their first up close look at the aircraft._

China's FC-31 Stealth Fighter Makes Statement at Zhuhai Air Show | Defense Tech

*China’s Stealth Fighter Could Get a Lot Better*

*Model hints at possible FC-31 enhancements*

*We don’t know much about the FC-31, China’s other stealth fighter prototype. But a non-flying model of the FC-31 that appeared at the Zhuhai air show in southern China in early November offers some compelling new clues.
That’s because the model is different than the flying FC-31 prototype—which also attended the Zhuhai show. Comparing the model and the plane could reveal Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s ambitions for its new stealth jet.

The model boasts better stealth features, new engines and a wider range of sensors. If Shenyang adds all these enhancements to the FC-31, the resulting fighter could more closely match the American F-35.

But if the non-flying model at Zhuhai is any indication, the FC-31 could get a host of improvements. The model has a bigger nose, possibly to indicate carriage of a high-tech electronically-scanned-array radar. The model also includes an under-nose fairing for a camera, similar to the fairing on the F-35.





At top—the FC-31 at Zhuhai. Above—the model at Zhuhai. Photos via Chinese social media
The model’s tail fins are a different shape than the flying prototype’s fins, with parallel angles that could improve the plane’s ability to avoid radar detection. The canopy is one-piece—representing another possible signature reduction.

Likewise, the model’s engines are different, with sawtooth nozzles that could also improve the FC-31’s stealth. Shenyang reportedly wants to fit domestically-made motors to the FC-31 to replace the Russian RD-93s.

Now, we don’t know when—or even if—Shenyang plans to add the model’s improvements to the FC-31. Although, it’s worth pointing out that Chengdu has progressively improved its J-20 prototypes with stealth features.

China’s Stealth Fighter Could Get a Lot Better — War Is Boring — Medium
*


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> That is why i mentioned the FSO, and the ETOS of F-35 is meant to fulfill the same function, albeit maybe with a newer missile. Basically, your onboard IRST is useless if you can detect a target passively but not be able to launch a weapon towards it, similar to the having a APG66/68 on the F-16 but no AIM120. In the case of an Active guided missile, you need initial targeting information anyway, the missile's own seeker is too small to detect at it's max range, so it is launched with the preset directions and the missile is updated with the latest info. As it nears the target it can get a lock by itself.
> 
> Though i don't know how effective the FSO like system would be when chasing a F-22/F-35 class target.......there should be enough infrared generated for the target to be detected. How does it work then?


Data sharing is the core-capability these days. Imagine a target with cruel intentions is coming toward you and is detected by, let's take Erieye and Falcons are on the prowl. AEW&C detects it at long range while fighters are patrolling low so enemy radars don't know they're there. They position themselves in the range stealthily and launch AMRAAMs without even turning own radars but with targeting data provided by AEW&C and turn away, because 2000 can guide the missile with Link-16. Now, isn't it something?

In fact, One Rafale launched a MICA EM at a target drone over the shoulder without having even a radar contact with the target and targeting data provided to missile from another Rafale using Link-16. Missile made a 180-degree turn after launch and homed-on its target.

Sensor-fusion is essential for 5th-gen. fighters, all sensors work simultaneously and give you combined data for best results. Officials say that radar is more accurate for target range than passive systems and F-35's EOTS is more accurate in azimuth than the radar, combine the two and you get best result. Sure these planes too can be detected by other aircrafts with capable sensors. ASRAAM can also be launched with target data initially provided by radar.

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## salman-1

No its British light


orangzaib said:


> One of the pictures of -22 has one of the PAF's F-7 behind it right?


No its British lightining interceptor fighter


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Data sharing is the core-capability these days. Imagine a target with cruel intentions is coming toward you and is detected by, let's take Erieye and Falcons are on the prowl. AEW&C detects it at long range while fighters are patrolling low so enemy radars don't know they're there. They position themselves in the range stealthily and launch AMRAAMs without even turning own radars but with targeting data provided by AEW&C and turn away, because 2000 can guide the missile with Link-16. Now, isn't it something?
> 
> In fact, One Rafale launched a MICA EM at a target drone over the shoulder without having even a radar contact with the target and targeting data provided to missile from another Rafale using Link-16. Missile made a 180-degree turn after launch and homed-on its target.
> 
> Sensor-fusion is essential for 5th-gen. fighters, all sensors work simultaneously and give you combined data for best results. *Officials say that radar is more accurate for target range than passive systems and F-35's EOTS is more accurate in azimuth than the radar*, combine the two and you get best result. Sure these planes too can be detected by other aircrafts with capable sensors. ASRAAM can also be launched with target data initially provided by radar.



This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....so how is the distance measured?

Another question, let's say AIM120 is launched from 70km out....it's onboard radar is too small to scan for the target on its own, so it need mid course guidance from the launch aircraft or some other external source. However, let's say the pilot moves the plane out of the scenario after AIM120 launch, what does the AIM120 do?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Another question, let's say AIM120 is launched from 70km out....it's onboard radar is too small to scan for the target on its own, so it need mid course guidance from the launch aircraft or some other external source. However, let's say the pilot moves the plane out of the scenario after AIM120 launch, what does the AIM120 do?


First of all, I don't think that if you launch AMRAAM exactly 70 km away from target, it would ever reach target. Its just stated and if tested, should have been under ideal conditions. For example if I'm flying at 5,000 and target is at 30,000 70km away, even if coming straight into me, I should wait. At most, range should be 50 km in combat conditions. Active Missiles are a leap forward compared to semi-active ones because you can turn away in the final stage but don't take 'em as fire-and-forget. Till it goes active itself, it should be guided if the target is a slow mover and poses less threat to the launch platform. But if confronted by a maneuvering target carrying same missiles, you should try to be as stealthy as possible. For example, if an enemy fighter is at 50km coming directly into an F-16, Falcon first should go far a co-operative stealthy engagement as described earlier. If it's on its own as you are saying, you should launch the missile with initial data and then turn to side frequently turning back in target and locking it for updating missile. Because enemy 'll keep flying in the straight line and if you launch as fire-and-forget and go back, it will most definitely not score against a worthy target unless it's a 'Mad Dog'(Code for launching in active mode but you need to be closer to the target for this). It shows you in the HUD, DLZ(Dynamic launch zone: a bar appears on hud with maximum limit of launch and minimum varying according to your and enemy position) before launch and timt to go active after launch.



Donatello said:


> This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....so how is the distance measured?


Advanced systems like aaq-40 combine infrared and laser. For the missiles, I don't know that much but, they are stated to have the capability to even target certain parts like cockpit or engine using focal pane array,iir combined with advanced algorithms


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## Umar AA

SSGPA1 said:


> Pakistan's first priority should be an anti missile system and an anti aircraft system that could counter JSF etc. Next war may be against multiple countries and one or two squadrons of a stealth fighter may not do much. We need SAMs that could give nightmares to the enemies of Pakistan.



I fully endorse his idea, Pakistan is in dire need of Advanced SAM systems

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## AFlover

Umar AA said:


> I fully endorse his idea, Pakistan is in dire need of Advanced SAM systems


Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?


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## Ray_of_Hope

AFlover said:


> Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?


We cannot really defuse or neutrlize a SAM but we can confuse it using different systems, the extent of which depends on the type of missile and its guidance system...MANPADS can be deceived by flares,radar guided SAMs by chaff.

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## IrbiS

AFlover said:


> Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?


That's what they call SEAD(Supression Of Enemy Air Defences) and DEAD(Destruction Of Enemy Air Defences) 'DEED' Using ECMs and Missiles. I like the USAF's motto for this mission: YGBSM(You Gotta Be S**ting Me)

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## Ray_of_Hope

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> That's what they call SEAD(Supression Of Enemy Air Defences) and DEAD(Destruction Of Enemy Air Defences) 'DEED' Using ECMs and Missiles. I like the USAF's motto for this mission: YGBSM(You Gotta Be S**ting Me)


I think he was asking about ``defusing`` a SAM after its launch

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....*so how is the distance measured?*


With infrared detection, distance is *NEVER* measured.

In order to truly measure something, you need absolute control of the medium and method of measurement, which includes units of measurement, such as kilogram or centimeter or hectare. You actually take the ruler and apply it against the object to be measured.

With radar detection, you control the measurement medium -- EM wavelengths that are outside of the visible and infrared spectrum. You control the method -- a specifically designed transmitter. And you control the timing of events -- when to transmit and if you want to receive the reflections.

With infrared detection, you control only if you want to receive any infrared radiation -- or not.







The more in control of factors in an environment, the more aware are you of that environment, which includes how long some things happens, to what degree, in which direction, etc. This is why radar detection is still the preferred and premier method of detection for objects that are beyond physical reach.

As far as distance in infrared detection goes, because you are *NOT* in control of the detection medium -- EM wavelengths that are in the infrared region -- you do not know the medium's characteristics common in radar such as pulse repetition and duration, you cannot adequately compensate for real time variations of the medium, and because you cannot compensate for variations, you have no choice but to use whatever medium characteristics you can get and work from there.

In infrared detection, the best and always coarse medium characteristic is irradiance.

- the flux of radiant energy per unit area (normal to the direction of flow of radiant energy through a medium).

If there is an increase in irradiance over time, then you can guess, with reasonable certainty, that you are approaching the target, or you are the target and the object is approaching you. The key here is time. The finer the granularity of time measurement, such as millisecond or better picosecond, the better your guess as to how far/near is the target from you. But ultimately, it is still a guess, albeit a calculated one.

Application of this ? Your TV remote control...For example...

http://inside.mines.edu/~whoff/courses/EENG383/reference/appnote2.pdf


> The maximum possible transmission distance of an IR remote control system depends on various parameters, but is mainly conditional on the *radiant intensity of the emitter* (Ie) and the sensitivity of the receiver.


Irradiance levels are used by the receiver to cut off responses, meaning that if you hold the TV remote control at a certain distance from the TV, the infrared receiver inside the TV will not respond to any embedded commands. This is to prevent the TV from responding to stray infrared that maybe in the area.

If the radiant intensity of the body increases and you are keeping time with zero as the moment of detection, you can be reasonably certain that the body is approaching you. Conversely, if the irradiance of an object is at a certain level, you can guess its distance from you based upon a preset table.

Again...Infrared distance is never measured, only derived or inferred.

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## IrbiS

war khan said:


> I think he was asking about ``defusing`` a SAM after its launch


Well, I took the 'neutralizing' part

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## AFlover

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Well, I took the 'neutralizing' part


War khan/Umair khan sahib
Thanks for details, I meant pre and post launch of SAM systems, how easy is it to trace the Sam batteries for an enemy aircraft or missile to make a loop hole in air defense?
Wen we compare India pak what r the qualitative and quantitative difference between both?

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## Viper0011.

AFlover said:


> War khan/Umair khan sahib
> Thanks for details, I meant pre and post launch of SAM systems, how easy is it to trace the Sam batteries for an enemy aircraft or missile to make a loop hole in air defense?
> Wen we compare India pak what r the qualitative and quantitative difference between both?




You can track SAM systems from 60 or more miles away if you have the tech. You don't have to wait for the pre or post launch. Air defense loop holes can also be found through SigInt, but there are tiers of SAM coverage so you can't always be sure that the farthest signal frequency that you are detecting a loop hole on, is actually true as there will be shorter range radars as you get closer to enemy's airspace. However, Stealth tech eliminates that issue and a jet like the F-117 or more advanced F-22, can literally go inside any dense EM environment and do whatever it needs to.

India is a much bigger country with more money. So they have a lot of advanced and diverse radar systems and now they are developing a few internally, including SAMS. But India is also 7 times larger than Pakistan, so her area is much huge that requires coverage. Pakistan is way behind in internal SAM development, something which should be given a much higher priority.

Pakistan had a pretty decent radar system, all integrated even in the 90's if I remember correctly, all around the borders with India. But Pakistan never made Afghanistan and the Chinese side a priority for radar coverage so in those mountainous areas, the coverage used to be spotty even during the Afghan war.

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## AFlover

Viper0011. said:


> You can track SAM systems from 60 or more miles away if you have the tech. You don't have to wait for the pre or post launch. Air defense loop holes can also be found through SigInt, but there are tiers of SAM coverage so you can't always be sure that the farthest signal frequency that you are detecting a loop hole on, is actually true as there will be shorter range radars as you get closer to enemy's airspace. However, Stealth tech eliminates that issue and a jet like the F-117 or more advanced F-22, can literally go inside any dense EM environment and do whatever it needs to.
> 
> India is a much bigger country with more money. So they have a lot of advanced and diverse radar systems and now they are developing a few internally, including SAMS. But India is also 7 times larger than Pakistan, so her area is much huge that requires coverage. Pakistan is way behind in internal SAM development, something which should be given a much higher priority.
> 
> Pakistan had a pretty decent radar system, all integrated even in the 90's if I remember correctly, all around the borders with India. But Pakistan never made Afghanistan and the Chinese side a priority for radar coverage so in those mountainous areas, the coverage used to be spotty even during the Afghan war.


Thanks for details I read that India has S400 which is very advanced and pak doesn't have any theing that good to counter their su30s and mirages

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## Donatello

gambit said:


> With infrared detection, distance is *NEVER* measured.
> 
> In order to truly measure something, you need absolute control of the medium and method of measurement, which includes units of measurement, such as kilogram or centimeter or hectare. You actually take the ruler and apply it against the object to be measured.
> 
> With radar detection, you control the measurement medium -- EM wavelengths that are outside of the visible and infrared spectrum. You control the method -- a specifically designed transmitter. And you control the timing of events -- when to transmit and if you want to receive the reflections.
> 
> With infrared detection, you control only if you want to receive any infrared radiation -- or not.
> 
> View attachment 192788
> 
> 
> The more in control of factors in an environment, the more aware are you of that environment, which includes how long some things happens, to what degree, in which direction, etc. This is why radar detection is still the preferred and premier method of detection for objects that are beyond physical reach.
> 
> As far as distance in infrared detection goes, because you are *NOT* in control of the detection medium -- EM wavelengths that are in the infrared region -- you do not know the medium's characteristics common in radar such as pulse repetition and duration, you cannot adequately compensate for real time variations of the medium, and because you cannot compensate for variations, you have no choice but to use whatever medium characteristics you can get and work from there.
> 
> In infrared detection, the best and always coarse medium characteristic is irradiance.
> 
> - the flux of radiant energy per unit area (normal to the direction of flow of radiant energy through a medium).
> 
> If there is an increase in irradiance over time, then you can guess, with reasonable certainty, that you are approaching the target, or you are the target and the object is approaching you. The key here is time. The finer the granularity of time measurement, such as millisecond or better picosecond, the better your guess as to how far/near is the target from you. But ultimately, it is still a guess, albeit a calculated one.
> 
> Application of this ? Your TV remote control...For example...
> 
> http://inside.mines.edu/~whoff/courses/EENG383/reference/appnote2.pdf
> 
> Irradiance levels are used by the receiver to cut off responses, meaning that if you hold the TV remote control at a certain distance from the TV, the infrared receiver inside the TV will not respond to any embedded commands. This is to prevent the TV from responding to stray infrared that maybe in the area.
> 
> If the radiant intensity of the body increases and you are keeping time with zero as the moment of detection, you can be reasonably certain that the body is approaching you. Conversely, if the irradiance of an object is at a certain level, you can guess its distance from you based upon a preset table.
> 
> Again...Infrared distance is never measured, only derived or inferred.



Well, okay, i understand that because with IR or UV detection, you are not really sending any EM radiation, so you cannot know accurately how far it is, since the typical speed/distance/time for echo/reflection calculations don't work....with 2 variable missing.....but then how good is the estimate? For example, the F-35 has a IRST suit for that purpose and the Rafale has the FSO.....the idea is to let the IR sensors on board guide the IIR missiles, just like the Radar would guide the active or semi-active radar guided missiles.....we want to use the IR in place of the Radar....so that the aircraft can remain silent....and secondly, in case of a stealth aircraft, Radar may not return anything, so you go for another detection mechanism, which would be IR.

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## Coolboy

What is your take?[/QUOTE]
Chinees call it 4th generation..... actually it is 5th generation...... F-16 A/B is 3rd generation according to chinees

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## zhang5521

Many Chinese military enthusiasts think, PAF up to now have no specific negotiation action, just have the air force officers have expressed interest, however, may not funded the purchase of PAF fc31, there are several reasons for this: the first is expensive, second is likely to buy F35, third is not an urgent need, India has a stealth fighter then will buy, fourth as J20 worse than some stealth aircraft, the performance of J31 may not be satisfactory...... Now I want to know, in Pakistan in the news, there is no new reports and news about fc31? Chinese here no PAF to buy the news......


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## The SC

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to _IHS Jane's_ .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

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## wiseone2

The SC said:


> Due to some wide spread information on many sites and in the specialized media about the possibility of Pakistan acquiring the 5th generation Chinese (/Pakistani?) stealth fighter jet, and the communality of their future engine the WS-13. I have decided to open this thread for serious discussions about the plane, its capabilities, the possibilities, and the probability of acquiring it by PAF, knowing that PAF has not been operating, or reluctant to operate twin engined warplanes.
> My personal opinion is that the maintenance won't be a big hurdle since PAF will be maintaining only one type engine for both JF-17 and J-31.
> 
> An article in the People’s Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. *The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter*, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S.’ F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be China’s next carrier-borne fighter.
> 
> ““India won’t buy it. Russia won’t buy it,” Cliff noted, adding: “That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next.”
> 
> He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane.
> 
> *Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter*. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry.
> 
> I believe it will be a mix of 4th generation stealth fighter and a fully 5th Generation stealth fighter, according to the pictures above.
> 
> What is your take?



China can barely make a 4th generation by Western standard fighter
Talking about fifth and sixth generation aircraft is little premature


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wiseone2 said:


> China can barely make a 4th generation by Western standard fighter
> Talking about fifth and sixth generation aircraft is little premature



JF-17,J-10,J-15,J-11Bs etc .... 4.5 gen fighters by any standards.


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## wiseone2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> JF-17,J-10,J-15,J-11Bs etc .... 4.5 gen fighters by any standards.



People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30

What is a J-15 ??

JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wiseone2 said:


> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30



Guess what even J-11 is a modified variant of SU that China built under license .. Than came more advanced. + carrier variants like J-11B,J-15,J-16



> JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.



Jf-17 has been a PAF baby (which also own 55+% share in the project).. It was created for PAF by PAF & Chinese. The SU-30 itself was inducted by russian much later in small numbers with its first user being india.
P.S: Chinese have J-10 which fits their needs.


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## That Guy

wiseone2 said:


> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30
> 
> What is a J-15 ??
> 
> JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.


Don't come here and troll. All of your points have been addressed in the past.

The J-15 is the carrier version of the J-11b, Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can use google to do basic research.


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## Ultima Thule

That Guy said:


> Don't come here and troll. All of your points have been addressed in the past.
> 
> The J-15 is the carrier version of the J-11b, Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can use google to do basic research.


you are trolling and he is right J-11 is modified form of Su-27, j15 is based on Su-33 obtain from UKRAINE got it or not kid


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## shaheenmissile

pakistanipower said:


> you are trolling and he is right J-11 is modified form of Su-27, j15 is based on Su-33 obtain from UKRAINE got it or not kid


Go worry about your Tejas which is ready for museum now

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## Ultima Thule

shaheenmissile said:


> Go worry about your Tejas which is ready for museum now


i am pakistani and chinese side but fact is fact all PLAAF aircrafts russian design including J-20, now go live on your fools world


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## Viper0011.

wiseone2 said:


> *J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30*. What is a J-15 ??
> 
> *JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it*.



See answers to bold above:
1) Majority of the top end Russian and Chinese jets are further advanced derivatives of the SU family.....including the PAKFA!!

2) The JFT is actually a 4th Gen platform. There is no doubt about it. But under the Chinese military's focus, they need the low-mid tier aircraft to have higher range and payload capability. China's landmass is huge and a JFT flying from one end to another, would require refuel like 4 times. 

Its a great plane for the Indo-Pak theater due to borders being next to each other. About 90% of the air-wars in the Indo-Pak scenario, will be fought within 800 KM, where the JFT comes into play and provides a much cheaper bang for the buck. 

But in China's case, a much larger geography and area coverage is required, way beyond Pakistan and India's situation. The J-10, J-11's are a much nicer option due to their larger payloads and range. The J-10 will replace the J-8, J-7 and the Q series, from what I am observing about the Chinese military. The future of the Chinese air force would be low-hi in the form of J-10 and J11 with Stealth options low - hi in the shape of the J-31 and J-20


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## shaheenmissile

pakistanipower said:


> i am pakistani and chinese side but fact is fact all PLAAF aircrafts russian design including J-20, now go live on your fools world


No you arw an Indian too ashamed of showing your true identity.

اور اگر واقعی پاکستانی ہو تو ذرا علامہ اقبال کی سب سے مشہور دعائیہ نظم کے پہلے دو اشعار لکھو ادھر ـ ہم بھی دیکھیں کتنے پاکستانی ہو تم؟

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## Ultima Thule

Viper0011. said:


> See answers to bold above:
> 1) Majority of the top end Russian and Chinese jets are further advanced derivatives of the SU family.....including the PAKFA!!
> 
> 2) The JFT is actually a 4th Gen platform. There is no doubt about it. But under the Chinese military's focus, they need the low-mid tier aircraft to have higher range and payload capability. China's landmass is huge and a JFT flying from one end to another, would require refuel like 4 times.
> 
> Its a great plane for the Indo-Pak theater due to borders being next to each other. About 90% of the air-wars in the Indo-Pak scenario, will be fought within 800 KM, where the JFT comes into play and provides a much cheaper bang for the buck.
> 
> But in China's case, a much larger geography and area coverage is required, way beyond Pakistan and India's situation. The J-10, J-11's are a much nicer option due to their larger payloads and range. The J-10 will replace the J-8, J-7 and the Q series, from what I am observing about the Chinese military. The future of the Chinese air force would be low-hi in the form of J-10 and J11 with Stealth options low - hi in the shape of the J-31 and J-20


you r on the spot mr


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## shaheenmissile

pakistanipower said:


> you r on the spot mr


چلو اب اوپر لکھے میرے کمنٹس کا بھی جواب لکھ "دو "پاکستانی بھائ

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## wiseone2

That Guy said:


> Don't come here and troll. All of your points have been addressed in the past.
> 
> The J-15 is the carrier version of the J-11b, Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can use google to do basic research.



J-15 is derivative of the Su-33. There are 15 aircraft built.



Viper0011. said:


> See answers to bold above:
> 1) Majority of the top end Russian and Chinese jets are further advanced derivatives of the SU family.....including the PAKFA!!
> 
> 2) The JFT is actually a 4th Gen platform. There is no doubt about it. But under the Chinese military's focus, they need the low-mid tier aircraft to have higher range and payload capability. China's landmass is huge and a JFT flying from one end to another, would require refuel like 4 times.
> 
> Its a great plane for the Indo-Pak theater due to borders being next to each other. About 90% of the air-wars in the Indo-Pak scenario, will be fought within 800 KM, where the JFT comes into play and provides a much cheaper bang for the buck.
> 
> But in China's case, a much larger geography and area coverage is required, way beyond Pakistan and India's situation. The J-10, J-11's are a much nicer option due to their larger payloads and range. The J-10 will replace the J-8, J-7 and the Q series, from what I am observing about the Chinese military. The future of the Chinese air force would be low-hi in the form of J-10 and J11 with Stealth options low - hi in the shape of the J-31 and J-20



My basic point is that Chinese have barely mastered the design for Western 4th generation combat aircraft. It ain't easy building a 4th generation combat aircraft



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Guess what even J-11 is a modified variant of SU that China built under license .. Than came more advanced. + carrier variants like J-11B,J-15,J-16
> 
> 
> 
> Jf-17 has been a PAF baby (which also own 55+% share in the project).. It was created for PAF by PAF & Chinese. The SU-30 itself was inducted by russian much later in small numbers with its first user being india.
> P.S: Chinese have J-10 which fits their needs.



The JF-17 is equipped with Russian RD-93 engines

My basic point is that it is silly to be talking about 5th and 6th generation combat aircraft when you barely have 4th generation aircraft working


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wiseone2 said:


> J-15 is derivative of the Su-33. There are 15 aircraft built.
> 
> 
> 
> My basic point is that Chinese have barely mastered the design for Western 4th generation combat aircraft. It ain't easy building a 4th generation combat aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> The JF-17 is equipped with Russian RD-93 engines
> 
> My basic point is that it is silly to be talking about 5th and 6th generation combat aircraft when you barely have 4th generation aircraft working


Forget it .. We can sense your butthurt & bruised little ego.

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## Viper0011.

wiseone2 said:


> J-15 is derivative of the Su-33. There are 15 aircraft built.
> 
> My basic point is that Chinese have barely mastered the design for Western 4th generation combat aircraft. It ain't easy building a 4th generation combat aircraft
> 
> The JF-17 is equipped with Russian RD-93 engines
> 
> My basic point is that it is silly to be talking about 5th and 6th generation combat aircraft when you barely have 4th generation aircraft working



Your posts don't make any sense almost all the time. I wonder how old you really are. Its almost like a waste of time and energy trying to debate with you when you either don't have the "basics" down properly or just lack the knowledge, but yet, you'd like to jump onto every topic.

1) J-15 is a derivitave of the SU-33....which itself comes from the SU-30, which is really a very upgraded SU-27!!! What's your point? So if China can make a derivative of SU-33, which is one of the most recent and advanced Russian planes......4th Gen++........your argument is that the Chinese can't make a 4th Gen plane? Common man, get your facts and posts in a row before posting contradictory low quality posts.

2) Whether JFT uses a RD-93 engines or an engine made by Indian Maruti cars, does it matter? The jet does provide all the capability a 4th Gen plane provides....so why stupidfy (my own word), the entire thread???

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## Ultima Thule

Viper0011. said:


> Your posts don't make any sense almost all the time. I wonder how old you really are. Its almost like a waste of time and energy trying to debate with you when you either don't have the "basics" down properly or just lack the knowledge, but yet, you'd like to jump onto every topic.
> 
> 1) J-15 is a derivitave of the SU-33....which itself comes from the SU-30, which is really a very upgraded SU-27!!! What's your point? So if China can make a derivative of SU-33, which is one of the most recent and advanced Russian planes......4th Gen++........your argument is that the Chinese can't make a 4th Gen plane? Common man, get your facts and posts in a row before posting contradictory low quality posts.
> 
> 2) Whether JFT uses a RD-93 engines or an engine made by Indian Maruti cars, does it matter? The jet does provide all the capability a 4th Gen plane provides....so why stupidfy (my own word), the entire thread???


you r on the spot mr


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## shaheenmissile

pakistanipower said:


> you r on the spot mr


Its "spot on" 
Not "on the spot"
جعلی پاکستانی

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## That Guy

pakistanipower said:


> you are trolling and he is right J-11 is modified form of Su-27, j15 is based on Su-33 obtain from UKRAINE got it or not kid


Kid? Who're talking to? The j-11 series is based on the Su-27 family.

Anyway, if he DID already know that, then that just proves he's troll. Not to mention his comment about the jf-17 is ridiculously trollish.

Then again, I don't need to explain myself to you, KID.

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## Thorough Pro

@gambit 
Isn't intensity if IR a controlled measure too? Can't they use the system's known capability to measure a specific intensity level from a known distance and compare that with the received intensity to calculate the distance with reasonable accuracy?



gambit said:


> With infrared detection, distance is *NEVER* measured.
> 
> Again...Infrared distance is never measured, only derived or inferred.


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## Ultima Thule

wiseone2 said:


> J-15 is derivative of the Su-33. There are 15 aircraft built.
> 
> 
> 
> My basic point is that Chinese have barely mastered the design for Western 4th generation combat aircraft. It ain't easy building a 4th generation combat aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> The JF-17 is equipped with Russian RD-93 engines
> 
> My basic point is that it is silly to be talking about 5th and 6th generation combat aircraft when you barely have 4th generation aircraft working


just give me a break,answer my one question why you take so much time to develop your super duper LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT 1983 to 2015, its takes almost 32 year to develop,your beloved LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT has no technology develop by indians, it design based on french MIRAGE 2000, radar is ISRAELI, fly by wire software develop and tested by AMERICAN, avionics is ISRAELI, RUSSIAN, FRENCH, and some INDIAN, engine is also AMERICAN, so why you crapy indians said that your crapy little LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT is your indigenous product, what a fool you poor indiansPP



That Guy said:


> Kid? Who're talking to? The j-11 series is based on the Su-27 family.
> 
> Anyway, if he DID already know that, then that just proves he's troll. Not to mention his comment about the jf-17 is ridiculously trollish.
> 
> Then again, I don't need to explain myself to you, KID.


ok mr you'r right,but you'r wrong about J-15 is develop from J-11b, may be it has some avionic from J-11b but it does not mean that J-15 is develop from J-11b thanks

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## gambit

Thorough Pro said:


> @gambit
> Isn't intensity if IR a controlled measure too? Can't they use the system's known capability to measure a specific intensity level from a known distance and compare that with the received intensity to calculate the distance with reasonable accuracy?


Yes, you can. In fact, the newer IR sensors have this data processing capability. But it is still inferior in precision and accuracy compare to active radar signals.


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## Viper0011.

wiseone2 said:


> without examining a Su-33 and J-15 how do you know it isn't a carbon copy ? Give it to the Chinese they are very good at copying stuff.
> 
> When you cannot build an engine for 4th generation fighter how are you going to build an engine for 5th generation fighter ?



Either you have a lot of empty space between both of your ears or the "stuff" that might exist in your head, doesn't have brain waves, showing thinking ability. 

I don't think I denied that something was or WAS NOT a carbon copy. The argument was, the Chinese can't make a 4th gen jet. I've given you plenty of examples that they have been building MANY 4th gen fighters. Whether they copy or not, that's just quality. If a jet the Chinese built, does everything a F-16 or an F-15 does, but does it 70 or 80% of the American or Western products, that's a quality issue. Doesn't mean that their planes aren't 4th gen. 

By reading your messages, it doesn't look like you, yourself know the topic you started and derailed the thread!!


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## Indian Jatt

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions


frequent visits to Delhi haan????? yes off course......to pickup the leftover of the plane right????


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## Khurram2349

Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !


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## Sulman Badshah

Khurram2349 said:


> Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !


J20 will be designated PLAAF fighter jet and will not be available for export ... 

the only best thing that china going to export will be J31


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## araz

Khurram2349 said:


> Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !


Bhai.
Technology transfer is the most misunderstood concept amongst you guys. Just think clearly, you have just taken baby steps at manufacturing a fourth generation fighter. Your contribution to it is still 58%manufacturing. You do not have the grasp of the subject and the skills of manufacturing the full fighter. Now on top of it you want to manufacture a fifth generation fighter. You don't have the skill set to manufacture the composites and RAM coatings, the metallurgy to make the parts, the research to get into these fields. An even bigger stupidity is that you want another country no matter how friendly to hand over their latest technology on a silver platter and say to you,"here you go little brother we will give you what we have sweated over for 20yrs to acquire and let you manufacture it by setting up plants in your country and while you are at it we will also fork out the money to do so and forget about any of our aspirations to make money out of our investment". Do you see the stupidity of this line of thinking?
It is like getting your baby to learn particle physics at PHD level without having gone through kindergarten. It will work as well as you trying to manufacture a fifth generation fighter. 
Lastly, assuming you have the skills, the utility of TOT depends on the numbers produced as the price per unit drops down as the numbers increase. PAF will probably not require more than a couple of squadrons to begin with( ie. within the next ten years!!!) And you want to establish plants that will set you back 4-5 billion$ to manufacture just 40 fighters!!! What do you think the price per fighter is going to be? We need to think clearly before we write and try and analyze what we are writing. This, along with some research, is what will develop your skills as an internet warrior.
Araz

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> By reading your messages, it doesn't look like you, yourself know the topic you started and derailed the thread!!



Hi,

He knows everything very well----he is just trying to scratch to get every bit of information out there. His inquisitions are of the professional quality---there are a few others as well. A snub here a provocation there---very well practiced jibes---.

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## The SC

araz said:


> Bhai.
> Technology transfer is the most misunderstood concept amongst you guys. Just think clearly, you have just taken baby steps at manufacturing a fourth generation fighter. Your contribution to it is still 58%manufacturing. You do not have the grasp of the subject and the skills of manufacturing the full fighter. Now on top of it you want to manufacture a fifth generation fighter. You don't have the skill set to manufacture the composites and RAM coatings, the metallurgy to make the parts, the research to get into these fields. An even bigger stupidity is that you want another country no matter how friendly to hand over their latest technology on a silver platter and say to you,"here you go little brother we will give you what we have sweated over for 20yrs to acquire and let you manufacture it by setting up plants in your country and while you are at it we will also fork out the money to do so and forget about any of our aspirations to make money out of our investment". Do you see the stupidity of this line of thinking?
> It is like getting your baby to learn particle physics at PHD level without having gone through kindergarten. It will work as well as you trying to manufacture a fifth generation fighter.
> Lastly, assuming you have the skills, the utility of TOT depends on the numbers produced as the price per unit drops down as the numbers increase. PAF will probably not require more than a couple of squadrons to begin with( ie. within the next ten years!!!) And you want to establish plants that will set you back 4-5 billion$ to manufacture just 40 fighters!!! What do you think the price per fighter is going to be? We need to think clearly before we write and try and analyze what we are writing. This, along with some research, is what will develop your skills as an internet warrior.
> Araz


Why not? i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it. I know he has his driver's license and drives well. I also make computers and give him all the tech he needs to make some too and be independent since I know that he's got his PHD in science. It takes nothing from my business. I also know that if I was in need he would support me wholeheartedly.
So what if Pakistan decides to make a 150 or more J-31s, just like the JF-17 (low end/high end), the investment will certainly be worth it, and more yet, it will bring in other foreign interests, just like the JF-17. So in the long run the investment will even be financially rewarding on top of securing both lands.


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## araz

The SC said:


> Why not? i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it. I know he has his driver's license and drives well. I also make computers and give him all the tech he needs to make some too and be independent since I know that he's got his PHD in science. It takes nothing from my business. I also know that if I was in need he would support me wholeheartedly.
> So what if Pakistan decides to make a 150 or more J-31s, just like the JF-17 (low end/high end), the investment will certainly be worth it, and more yet, it will bring in other foreign interests, just like the JF-17. So in the long run the investment will even be financially rewarding on top of securing both lands.


Try again when your brother is 2 yrs old see what benfit that merc will do him. My feiend you are either very naive or taking the mickey out of me. In either case there is no free lunch in this world and if you think anyone will hand you the tech for 5th generation fighters then you are obviously from a different world. Good luck and when you seriously want to learn we can talk again. I can tell you on good authority that your dream is not about to come true at least for the next decade and possibly more.
Araz

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## The SC

araz said:


> Try again when your brother is 2 yrs old see what benfit that merc will do him. My feiend you are either very naive or taking the mickey out of me. In either case there is no free lunch in this world and if you think anyone will hand you the tech for 5th generation fighters then you are obviously from a different world. Good luck and when you seriously want to learn we can talk again. I can tell you on good authority that your dream is not about to come true at least for the next decade and possibly more.
> Araz



I know my brother can make nuclear bombs, Ballistic missiles, submarines, Tanks...etc, at the edge of technology and science and be responsible about it, so he is no 2 years old in anything. You must be the naive one here thinking that Pakistan is a backward country.
You can be sure of one thing, Pakistan never goes for something beyond its reach in procurements, and there are just very few of them due to the foreign blows to its economics which are getting better by the day...The brains are already there beyond anything you can imagine.

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## Viper0011.

The SC said:


> *i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it.* .



Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech. 

I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....


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## The SC

Viper0011. said:


> Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech.
> 
> I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....


The Chinese investments in Pakistan contradicts your thoughts, you should think about it twice.
By the way , the US has provided its allies with its best tech with ToT for decades till they could get on their feet, including nuclear tech... it has also provided and still doing so its best technologies with ToT to Usrael...


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## SQ8

Viper0011. said:


> Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech.
> 
> I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....



Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.

That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(_which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies_) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd.

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## Viper0011.

The SC said:


> The Chinese investments in Pakistan contradicts your thoughts, you should think about it twice.



The Chinese investment doesn't contradict my thoughts, you should go read up on my posts. I may be one of the few people on here who know the investments inflows to Pakistan a lot more than you can imagine.

Chinese investments and strategic offensive weapons are two VERY different things and entirely opposite in perspective. For example, the US and Japan do hundreds of billions of trade, but the US has refused to sell the -22 to it. Japan is the US's one of the biggest trading partner for decades. Same thing with Israel, Israel is one of our closes allies. But the US government refused to provide -22 to them. Instead they offered the -35 (which still is years advanced than anything their opponents have, but still, saying no to Israel is a huge deal).

So, both Japan and Israel are very strong organizations, both financially, trade wise and militarily. And Pakistan has just embarked herself on a long economic journey......so a LOT of differences. It won't be easy for Pakistan to get the Chinese to sell her tech related to the J-31, period. You can happily live in your dream world.

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## SQ8

The SC said:


> I know my brother can make nuclear bombs, Ballistic missiles, submarines, Tanks...etc, at the edge of technology and science and be responsible about it, so he is no 2 years old in anything. You must be the naive one here thinking that Pakistan is a backward country.
> You can be sure of one thing, Pakistan never goes for something beyond its reach in procurements, and there are just very few of them due to the foreign blows to its economics which are getting better by the day...The brains are already there beyond anything you can imagine.



Its backward is evident in its inability to leverage all that intelligence effectively. Trying to use the economics excuse has gone old on Pakistan. The corruption and mediocrity within its R&D department is plentiful enough to see projects shuttling about in nothing more than files. 

As for your ideals of procurement, you could not be more wrong.. Pakistan makes ONLY what it cannot procure easily from any source. Which means Pakistan only makes something when it know that it is near impossible for it to ensure a steady supply of that item. Otherwise it is very happy procuring things that are available at much cheaper rates than it would take to make them. We are not India,and have no ambitions to try and climb up the steep steps of total indignization and shoot ourselves in the foot multiple times along the way.

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## The SC

Viper0011. said:


> The Chinese investment doesn't contradict my thoughts, you should go read up on my posts. I may be one of the few people on here who know the investments inflows to Pakistan a lot more than you can imagine.
> 
> Chinese investments and strategic offensive weapons are two VERY different things and entirely opposite in perspective. For example, the US and Japan do hundreds of billions of trade, but the US has refused to sell the -22 to it. Japan is the US's one of the biggest trading partner for decades. Same thing with Israel, Israel is one of our closes allies. But the US government refused to provide -22 to them. Instead they offered the -35 (which still is years advanced than anything their opponents have, but still, saying no to Israel is a huge deal).
> 
> So, both Japan and Israel are very strong organizations, both financially, trade wise and militarily. And Pakistan has just embarked herself on a long economic journey......so a LOT of differences. It won't be easy for Pakistan to get the Chinese to sell her tech related to the J-31, period. You can happily live in your dream world.


In the case of Japan, you should know that it was occupied by the US and even nuked by it, do you think the US is not scared of a militarized Japan again?
You can better compare the ToT from China to Pakistan with that of yours with Usrael; Pakistan said openly that it is going for the J-31 not the J-20, that is like the F-35 vs the F-22.



Oscar said:


> Its backward is evident in its inability to leverage all that intelligence effectively. Trying to use the economics excuse has gone old on Pakistan. The corruption and mediocrity within its R&D department is plentiful enough to see projects shuttling about in nothing more than files.
> 
> As for your ideals of procurement, you could not be more wrong.. Pakistan makes ONLY what it cannot procure easily from any source. Which means Pakistan only makes something when it know that it is near impossible for it to ensure a steady supply of that item. Otherwise it is very happy procuring things that are available at much cheaper rates than it would take to make them. We are not India,and have no ambitions to try and climb up the steep steps of total indignization and shoot ourselves in the foot multiple times along the way.



The Afghan war quagmire added to a natural disaster had a very negative impact on Pakistan's economy, add to it foreign conspiracies from India, the US and Usrael to ferment internal havoc called terrorism, and you can see that the economy played a large part in that inability of leveraging all the potential of Pakistan's brains and intelligence, the war in Afghanistan and the internal conflicts imposed a big toll on Pakistan as a whole.
You have got the whole thing about procurements wrong. The whole world functions like that, even China buys foreign weapon systems, because they are readily available and good stop gaps when one is developing its own.


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## araz

Oscar said:


> Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
> From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.
> 
> That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(_which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies_) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd.


This is not unusual and the same level of security is around the Bl.60s of UAE.
This business of handing over technology just like that just does not happen and arguments about it is a waste of time.
Araz

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## black-hawk_101

I am sure PAF is in talks with Chinese over joining the program or looking for license production instead of J-10s.


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## CHI RULES

So far Chinese have given clear signals that J31 is for export customers so if Pakistan goes for them they will get them just like any other country however J20 is clearly designed for Chinese requirements and will not be available for exports in any near future.( Just like F22 not offered by USA to any country but they have offered F35 to their allies.


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## black-hawk_101

Im sure PAF is looking to procure or produce FC31 rather J10.


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## boke

作为中国人，我认为空军准备的技术和装备更新换代是很正常的，一如歼-10在技术上的不断升级，最终的效果应该是4++的水平；而5代机中国因为同时有两款在研制当中，J-20和J-31，不同的是，这两款5代机的用途各不相同，比较适合中国用的是前者，后者则适用于国土面积和防空压力相对较小的国家。值得庆幸的同样是中国研制的5代战机，如果一种战机得到真正的突破，那么另一款的横空出世就会很快了，技术之间是有借鉴和创新的，相信即使是J-31出来了，它也一定和J-20有不同的特点。对于巴基斯坦来说，引进哪一款都需要根据自己实际情况和需要来谈，中国和巴基斯坦是战略上的盟友，别的不用多说什么！


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## ACE OF THE AIR

boke said:


> 作为中国人，我认为空军准备的技术和装备更新换代是很正常的，一如歼-10在技术上的不断升级，最终的效果应该是4++的水平；而5代机中国因为同时有两款在研制当中，J-20和J-31，不同的是，这两款5代机的用途各不相同，比较适合中国用的是前者，后者则适用于国土面积和防空压力相对较小的国家。值得庆幸的同样是中国研制的5代战机，如果一种战机得到真正的突破，那么另一款的横空出世就会很快了，技术之间是有借鉴和创新的，相信即使是J-31出来了，它也一定和J-20有不同的特点。对于巴基斯坦来说，引进哪一款都需要根据自己实际情况和需要来谈，中国和巴基斯坦是战略上的盟友，别的不用多说什么！



Translation

As a Chinese, I think the Air Force to prepare the technology and equipment replacement is normal, as the J-10 is technically escalating , the final result should be level 4 ++ ; and the 5th generation machine China because while there Both of them in the development , J-20 and J-31, the difference is , these two 5th generation machines use different , more suitable for Chinese use of the former, the latter is applicable to the land area and air defense pressure relatively small country. Fortunately, the same Chinese developed the 5th generation fighter , if a fighter get real breakthrough , it will be another turned out very quickly , there is a draw between technology and innovation , I believe that even J- 31 came out, it must also J-20 and have different characteristics . For Pakistan , the introduction of which one need according to their actual situation and needs to talk , China and Pakistan are strategic allies , needless to say anything else !

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## boke

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Translation
> 
> As a Chinese, I think the Air Force to prepare the technology and equipment replacement is normal, as the J-10 is technically escalating , the final result should be level 4 ++ ; and the 5th generation machine China because while there Both of them in the development , J-20 and J-31, the difference is , these two 5th generation machines use different , more suitable for Chinese use of the former, the latter is applicable to the land area and air defense pressure relatively small country. Fortunately, the same Chinese developed the 5th generation fighter , if a fighter get real breakthrough , it will be another turned out very quickly , there is a draw between technology and innovation , I believe that even J- 31 came out, it must also J-20 and have different characteristics . For Pakistan , the introduction of which one need according to their actual situation and needs to talk , China and Pakistan are strategic allies , needless to say anything else !


 非常感谢你的翻译！这位朋友，我不用英语，一方面是因为长时间没有用英语写作，这方面能力有所欠缺，另一方面是我对自己的语言比较有自信，中国人用中文写作是理所当然的事情。当然，在交流方面可能有巴基斯坦朋友看不懂中文，但是看到你能准确的理解我所写的内容，我由衷的感到高兴，希望中文能在巴基斯坦普及开，我希望有一天我能用中文在巴基斯坦愉快的旅行！


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## ACE OF THE AIR

我在这个论坛上英语的朋友是被使用，但我们也知道，还有人在世界上谁不知道英语的唯一语言。他们也欢迎他们的语言写的。有可用的像谷歌某些翻译网站翻译，有时甚至是不完全准确的翻译所以一些修正是必需的。

在巴基斯坦有一个计划，以启动中国语言要教作为一个受孩子但现在取消了。

My friend on this forum English is the only language that is to be used but we do understand that there are people in the world who do not know English. They are also welcome to write in their language. There are some translation sites available like Google Translate, some times it even is not fully accurate in translation so some corrections are required. 

In Pakistan there was a plan to start Chinese Language to be taught as a subject to children but it is now canceled.



boke said:


> 非常感谢你的翻译！这位朋友，我不用英语，一方面是因为长时间没有用英语写作，这方面能力有所欠缺，另一方面是我对自己的语言比较有自信，中国人用中文写作是理所当然的事情。当然，在交流方面可能有巴基斯坦朋友看不懂中文，但是看到你能准确的理解我所写的内容，我由衷的感到高兴，希望中文能在巴基斯坦普及开，我希望有一天我能用中文在巴基斯坦愉快的旅行！

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## Blue Marlin

rockstar08 said:


> this will be best possible option for us in future , but i think we will see what happen after Jf-17 block 3 start producing


yes after the block 3 and also after the FC-20 which should be in the works soon i would say around 2023 would be a good time for induction. the jf17 and the j31 share the same engine so maintenance would be very easy and also knowledge with Chinese jet will help.


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## FunkyGen

boke said:


> 非常感谢你的翻译！这位朋友，我不用英语，一方面是因为长时间没有用英语写作，这方面能力有所欠缺，另一方面是我对自己的语言比较有自信，中国人用中文写作是理所当然的事情。当然，在交流方面可能有巴基斯坦朋友看不懂中文，但是看到你能准确的理解我所写的内容，我由衷的感到高兴，希望中文能在巴基斯坦普及开，我希望有一天我能用中文在巴基斯坦愉快的旅行！


 @boke 
Brother chinese language at it's very basis is very different to the other languages as it revolves around a different set of alphabets and their understanding...
it also happens to be a very difficult language...
therefore it is very impractical for us to adopt it on a large scale...
we know english because of the british rule over the sub continent but our mother language is still urdu...


however there are plans for post graduate chinese classes in some of our universities and the formation of a cultural center...
with that being said we value the Chinese friendship and partnership to the utmost... thanks!


----------



## Khanivore

I know I'm late to reply but here it is anyway...


|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\| said:


> *Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud.*


*ahem* They ARE proud hence why they are sitting on the biggest pile of forex reserves in the world, some US$3.7 TRILLION.

Your own country's largest imports from China is Chinese phone equipment. India is flooded with Chinese phones! And don't even deny the fact that you Indians are actually drooling over latest Chinese *designed and made* *smartphones*. Google for *gizchina* where many Indians are checking out latest Chinese phones which are not copies/clones but are Chinese by design and manufacture. Have you heard about the Chinese phone which has a touch sensitive laser projector built-in? It's a world first and no doubt you Indians will be checking it out.



|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\| said:


> *There are a lot things made in India as well, like the name of your country and culture for one *


Apart from raw and processed materials, what is India exporting that is a technological success? (I'm not talking about software)

To China alone your largest export is copper! You're actually helping China produce "absolute crap" by exporting to China the materials it needs, for goods the world wants!

About the only technological export is your software that has been contracted to your Indian IT firms by Western companies but that changing in this fast moving world. Now many other countries offer same services.

What about your call centres which are totally disliked by the general population in the West, especially the British public. Your thick Indian accent and not understanding your callers because you're too busy reading off prepared scripts has annoyed the hell out of the public in Britain, hence why your call centre operators are labeled "script monkeys". Western companies have now started to move away from India and have setup call centres in countries like Bulgaria.

BUT above all else, do you realize how much bad rep India is getting for the horrendous number of rapes and abuse of your own women and children? Makes you wonder which terrorists the women and children of India should really fear. An excerpt from The Guardian paper in Britain, _"Of all the rich G20 nations, India has been labelled the worst place to be a woman. But how is this possible in a country that prides itself on being the world's largest democracy?"_


----------



## Spectre

Khanivore said:


> Apart from raw and processed materials, what is India exporting that is a technological success? (I'm not talking about software)
> 
> To China alone your largest export is copper! You're actually helping China produce "absolute crap" by exporting to China the materials it needs, for goods the world wants!
> 
> About the only technological export is your software that has been contracted to your Indian IT firms by Western companies but that changing in this fast moving world. Now many other countries offer same services.
> 
> What about your call centres which are totally disliked by the general population in the West, especially the British public. Your thick Indian accent and not understanding your callers because you're too busy reading off prepared scripts has annoyed the hell out of the public in Britain, hence why your call centre operators are labeled "script monkeys". Western companies have now started to move away from India and have setup call centres in countries like Bulgaria.
> 
> BUT above all else, do you realize how much bad rep India is getting for the horrendous number of rapes and abuse of your own women and children? Makes you wonder which terrorists the women and children of India should really fear. An excerpt from The Guardian paper in Britain, _"Of all the rich G20 nations, India has been labelled the worst place to be a woman. But how is this possible in a country that prides itself on being the world's largest democracy?"_



Please educate yourself before posting crap

India's Top 5 exports

1. Gems and Jewelry $ 8 billion- *Value added industry (Import -> Diamond Cutting ->Export)*
2. Oil: $4.4 billion - *Value added Industry (Import -> Refining ->Export)*
3. Pharmaceuticals: $3.8 billion Indigenous *Manufacturing*
4. Other textiles, worn clothing: $2.2 billion *Manufacturing*
5. Machines, engines, pumps: $2 billion *Manufacturing

Sincere request - educate yourself*


----------



## 大汉奸柳传志

AVIC recently updated its chinese webpage to put FC-31 on the menu. Maybe they feel confident enough for this bird to be on market soon.

No specs are given，only a few key words as a teaser：High survivability，Multi-role，Comprehensive Support Capabilities，Ban for the buck（literally they said that..lol）


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## ACE OF THE AIR

utp45 said:


> Ban for the buck（literally they said that..lol）



Ban or Bang ?


----------



## 大汉奸柳传志

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Ban or Bang ?


OH It‘s in chinese ，must be my typo

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## Khanivore

Spectre said:


> Please educate yourself before posting crap
> 
> India's Top 5 exports
> 
> 1. Gems and Jewelry $ 8 billion- *Value added industry (Import -> Diamond Cutting ->Export)*
> 2. Oil: $4.4 billion - *Value added Industry (Import -> Refining ->Export)*
> 3. Pharmaceuticals: $3.8 billion Indigenous *Manufacturing*
> 4. Other textiles, worn clothing: $2.2 billion *Manufacturing*
> 5. Machines, engines, pumps: $2 billion *Manufacturing
> 
> Sincere request - educate yourself*



Umm, what is "crap" in my post?... Let me politely remind you that my reply was to the following cheap jibe from one of your countrymen: "*Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud."*

Did you actually read exactly what I was replying to in my post or skimmed it for tidbits so you could post your pitiful "India's Top 5 exports" in comparison to China??


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## Spectre

Khanivore said:


> Umm, what is "crap" in my post?... Let me politely remind you that my reply was to the following cheap jibe from one of your countrymen: "*Your country is famous for making absolute crap. You're world famous for that, you should be proud."*
> 
> Did you actually read exactly what I was replying to in my post or skimmed it for tidbits so you could post your pitiful "India's Top 5 exports" in comparison to China??



I agree Indian export to China is mostly primary goods but that is because China restricts or imposes heavy levy on goods like pharma.

My countrymen was wrong in that and I apologize. We are in no position to compare ourselves with China but even you have said that:

_*Apart from raw and processed materials, what is India exporting that is a technological success? (I'm not talking about software)*_

My reply was to above statement. India exports pharma, automobiles and electronics too of course nothing on the scale of China so your statement is tad unfair


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## Khanivore

Spectre said:


> _*Apart from raw and processed materials, what is India exporting that is a technological success? (I'm not talking about software)*_
> 
> My reply was to above statement. India exports pharma, automobiles and electronics too of course nothing on the scale of China so your statement is tad unfair


You are right about pharmaceutical sector which is actually one of India's successes and I appreciate you pointed that out to me. Fair point. However, overall, India has a long way to go but not without increasing difficulties due to stiff global competition.

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## Spectre

Khanivore said:


> You are right about pharmaceutical sector which is actually one of India's successes and I appreciate you pointed that out to me. Fair point. However, overall, India has a long way to go but not without increasing difficulties due to stiff global competition.



I agree, you guys pulled way ahead of us during 2000-2015 and we had a corrupt and inept govt from 2003-2014 which suffocated the industry. We can only catch up now but the lead will remain.

What will happen is India will take China's place in low tech manufacturing as China moves to high -tech


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## kakajee

Spectre said:


> I agree, you guys pulled way ahead of us during 2000-2015 and we had a corrupt and inept govt from 2003-2014 which suffocated the industry. We can only catch up now but the lead will remain.
> 
> What will happen is India will take China's place in low tech manufacturing as China moves to high -tech


we should get rid of corruption first...Indian meds recently banned in us


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## Spectre

kakajee said:


> we should get rid of corruption first...Indian meds recently banned in us



I agree although only certain meds of certain comapanies have under review. India still exports large amount of pharma products to US and all over the world


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## Bilal Khan 777

We have no appetite for such aircraft. Pakistan's front line fighter will be JF17. All the other work will be done by F16s, a fleet of which will be enhanced further. China tries to sell everything to PK as a testing and demonstration ground, this aircraft is yet to be proven, and is years away from being something useful for us.


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## nk2120132471

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> China tries to sell everything to PK as a testing and demonstration ground, this aircraft is yet to be proven, and is years away from being something useful for us.


no need to worry.If FC-31 is seld to pakistan,it must be combat ready.the producer AVIC has a standard process of designing,producing,testing and selling.besides,PAF will make an asessment about it before it join paf.


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## Mrc

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We have no appetite for such aircraft. Pakistan's front line fighter will be JF17. All the other work will be done by F16s, a fleet of which will be enhanced further. China tries to sell everything to PK as a testing and demonstration ground, this aircraft is yet to be proven, and is years away from being something useful for us.




The key is to get this jet in to service quickly..
Even if it has no ground attack capability, if it has an engine and can fly, has a descent radar and can fire air to air missiles, it is more than worth inducting it...
Its a stealth fighter, and even with above basics wud thrust PAF into a force generation ahead of others, provided it can be inducted fairly quickly


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## Mrc

Let me put it another way..stealth fighter is going to be a game changer. It will make any 4th gen airforce obsolete if inducted early enough. Pakistan shud focus on j 31 as dedicated air superiority fighter and forget about inducting another 4th gen aircraft if this can be percured in a reasonable time..

I dont know bilal khan what are u talking about and your whole post is very detached from reality...


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## abaseen99

*Russia can put Pakistan Su-35*
09/07/2015
981




Russia may deliver to Pakistan, apart from a few units of Mi-35M, Su-35. This was announced by the Assistant Russian President Vladimir Kozhin, RIA Novosti reported.

According to the source, the negotiations on the preparation of contracts for the delivery to Pakistan of "several pieces of" Mi-35M and Su-35 are continuing. At the same time, he stressed that there is no information on the number of fighters, estimated to delivery.

Earlier reports said that Pakistan can be supplied attack helicopters Mi-35M. This was stated by the Russian ambassador in the country, without specifying the number of combat vehicles.

The Su-35 has not previously been supplied abroad. Currently we are discussing a contract for the sale of fighter jets to China.

Su-35 - multirole fighter generation 4 ++, deep modernization of the Su-27 avionics with elements of combat aircraft of the fifth generation. Fighter in 2011, is being tested. The first aircraft of this type appeared in the army in late 2012 and transferred into trial operation.
Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35 | Военный информатор


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## Hurter

abaseen99 said:


> *Russia can put Pakistan Su-35*
> 09/07/2015
> 981
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia may deliver to Pakistan, apart from a few units of Mi-35M, Su-35. This was announced by the Assistant Russian President Vladimir Kozhin, RIA Novosti reported.
> 
> According to the source, the negotiations on the preparation of contracts for the delivery to Pakistan of "several pieces of" Mi-35M and Su-35 are continuing. At the same time, he stressed that there is no information on the number of fighters, estimated to delivery.
> 
> Earlier reports said that Pakistan can be supplied attack helicopters Mi-35M. This was stated by the Russian ambassador in the country, without specifying the number of combat vehicles.
> 
> The Su-35 has not previously been supplied abroad. Currently we are discussing a contract for the sale of fighter jets to China.
> 
> Su-35 - multirole fighter generation 4 ++, deep modernization of the Su-27 avionics with elements of combat aircraft of the fifth generation. Fighter in 2011, is being tested. The first aircraft of this type appeared in the army in late 2012 and transferred into trial operation.
> Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35 | Военный информатор



This has been discussed I think. And this news only came on the Russian website.


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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> Let me put it another way..stealth fighter is going to be a game changer. It will make any 4th gen airforce obsolete if inducted early enough. Pakistan shud focus on j 31 as dedicated air superiority fighter and forget about inducting another 4th gen aircraft if this can be percured in a reasonable time..
> 
> I dont know bilal khan what are u talking about and your whole post is very detached from reality...




Hi,

It is better and cheaper to continue on with the 4 and 4.5 gen technology for as long as possible.

Pakistan should delay the purchase of a 5th gen for as long as possible till India does not make a commitment.

Changing fighter aircraft is not like changing your underwear. There is a systematic and a pragmatic approach to the issue. You just don't go out and buy something just like that---you have to buy it keeping in mind and seeing what the enemy is going to procure and what it has procured.

J31 is going to develop in time and the longer it takes for development---the better end product we will have. If the strategic issues give us a 10---15 years time to start integrating the J31---then one should rest assured that the technology outcome would almost be time and a half to twice as good---and same with the weapons as well.

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is better and cheaper to continue on with the 4 and 4.5 gen technology for as long as possible.
> 
> Pakistan should delay the purchase of a 5th gen for as long as possible till India does not make a commitment.
> 
> Changing fighter aircraft is not like changing your underwear. There is a systematic and a pragmatic approach to the issue. You just don't go out and buy something just like that---you have to buy it keeping in mind and seeing what the enemy is going to procure and what it has procured.
> 
> J31 is going to develop in time and the longer it takes for development---the better end product we will have. If the strategic issues give us a 10---15 years time to start integrating the J31---then one should rest assured that the technology outcome would almost be time and a half to twice as good---and same with the weapons as well.


Dear Sir,
Mostly I am agreed with You but some new platform is due for Pak in heavy category of 4.5 gen as India is also getting Rafaels though in limited numbers. While Pak only has 76 F16s we may say handful to counter Indian Jets even their Migs have been upgraded. We may go for same engines for our new plat form as used in our Jf17s.
Similarly excuse that Indian Su Mki are not in good shape then what abt our Mirrages and F7s. We want replacement of our vintage jets soon.
Being only a layman I can say that PAF and PN are in dire need of 4.5th gen Platform for deep strike missions. Some times offence is the best defense. One major part in our surrender in Bangladesh was our defensive posture.


----------



## Mani2020

Mrc said:


> Let me put it another way..*stealth fighter is going to be a game changer. It will make any 4th gen airforce obsolete if inducted early enough.* Pakistan shud focus on j 31 as dedicated air superiority fighter and forget about inducting another 4th gen aircraft if this can be percured in a reasonable time..
> 
> I dont know bilal khan what are u talking about and your whole post is very detached from reality...



That is an exaggeration of the fact. Had it been the case USA would have replaced all its 4 or 4. 5 generation aircrafts with f22. There are various things that need to be considered. first is the budget which in case of paf becomes more significant. Second is the technology being used, an aircraft tagged as 5th generation on paper doesn't make it so, it has to prove its worth... similarly as some 4th generation aircrafts were better than their counterparts while other were duds same is the case with 5th generation... third is the number inducted... you can't expect paf with 50 f31 making Indian 300 su30 and 100 odd mirages and mig 29s obsolete. Fourth is the fact that being 5th generation aircraft doesn't make it something invisible which can go and beat the shit out of enemy any day any time. Fifth is the fact that either you are offender or defender. Besides with awacs, net centric environment and good SAMs no airforce with some 5th generation aircrafts can make other airfore with good 4 or 4. 5 generation aircrafts obsolete. 

You always have to maintain a high- lo combo especially when you are a dead economy like ours... even keeping that sometimes is a hectic task... we by no means have so much funds that we can go all out with a 5th generation aircraft to make our adversary look like a dodo... everything we do is mostly a reaction to what our adversary do... we can't afford to be the initiaters because we know the other party has full pockets and they can throw back it at us with double magnitude and impact

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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir,
> Mostly I am agreed with You but some new platform is due for Pak in heavy category of 4.5 gen as India is also getting Rafaels though in limited numbers. While Pak only has 76 F16s we may say handful to counter Indian Jets even their Migs have been upgraded. We may go for same engines for our new plat form as used in our Jf17s.
> Similarly excuse that Indian Su Mki are not in good shape then what abt our Mirrages and F7s. We want replacement of our vintage jets soon.
> Being only a layman I can say that PAF and PN are in dire need of 4.5th gen Platform for deep strike missions. Some times offence is the best defense. One major part in our surrender in Bangladesh was our defensive posture.



Hi,

You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.

There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.

To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.

Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.

I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.

How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.

The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.

Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.

Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.

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## Mrc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is better and cheaper to continue on with the 4 and 4.5 gen technology for as long as possible.
> 
> Pakistan should delay the purchase of a 5th gen for as long as possible till India does not make a commitment.
> 
> Changing fighter aircraft is not like changing your underwear. There is a systematic and a pragmatic approach to the issue. You just don't go out and buy something just like that---you have to buy it keeping in mind and seeing what the enemy is going to procure and what it has procured.
> 
> J31 is going to develop in time and the longer it takes for development---the better end product we will have. If the strategic issues give us a 10---15 years time to start integrating the J31---then one should rest assured that the technology outcome would almost be time and a half to twice as good---and same with the weapons as well.




I would respectfully disagree...

If j 31 is stealth enuf and gives a very weak signal, too weak to b locked on to, it would make BVR missiles useless as they rely on radar lock; which is also the case for most medium and high altitude SAMs...

But a 4 4.5 gen should be visible for a lock to j 31, thus u get first shot capability...that does mean that all the sukhois and migs become mostly irrelevant...
This is far better and cheaper option than trying to compete in numbers with 4th gen aircraft

With russian stealth programe in doldrums it may give you alot if breathing space viz via any 4th gen airforce..


----------



## That Guy

abaseen99 said:


> *Russia can put Pakistan Su-35*
> 09/07/2015
> 981
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia may deliver to Pakistan, apart from a few units of Mi-35M, Su-35. This was announced by the Assistant Russian President Vladimir Kozhin, RIA Novosti reported.
> 
> According to the source, the negotiations on the preparation of contracts for the delivery to Pakistan of "several pieces of" Mi-35M and Su-35 are continuing. At the same time, he stressed that there is no information on the number of fighters, estimated to delivery.
> 
> Earlier reports said that Pakistan can be supplied attack helicopters Mi-35M. This was stated by the Russian ambassador in the country, without specifying the number of combat vehicles.
> 
> The Su-35 has not previously been supplied abroad. Currently we are discussing a contract for the sale of fighter jets to China.
> 
> Su-35 - multirole fighter generation 4 ++, deep modernization of the Su-27 avionics with elements of combat aircraft of the fifth generation. Fighter in 2011, is being tested. The first aircraft of this type appeared in the army in late 2012 and transferred into trial operation.
> Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35 | Военный информатор



Bullshit news.


----------



## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> I would respectfully disagree...
> 
> If j 31 is stealth enuf and gives a very weak signal, too weak to b locked on to, it would make BVR missiles useless as they rely on radar lock; which is also the case for most medium and high altitude SAMs...
> 
> But a 4 4.5 gen should be visible for a lock to j 31, thus u get first shot capability...that does mean that all the sukhois and migs become mostly irrelevant...
> This is far better and cheaper option than trying to compete in numbers with 4th gen aircraft
> 
> With russian stealth programe in doldrums it may give you alot if breathing space viz via any 4th gen airforce..



Hi,

Paf will wait till IAF decides what they are getting----.


----------



## Quwa

I have a somewhat different angle. I do think the PAF should consider the J-31, but it shouldn't make the J-31 its sole next generation solution. In fact, as with the JF-17, the next mainstay fighter in the PAF should be a locally produced platform. The J-31 should be acquired to bridge that transition, but the long-term solution cannot be an imported system.

The PAF should build upon the method it used to approach the JF-17. In other words, Pakistan will probably still need a foreign partner to heavily assist with development. However, this time it shouldn't shy away from a high performance design, the aim should be that of a 'world class fighter.' Not only that, but it should focus on producing a much higher proportion of the system (including engine) at home. This won't be achieved in 10 years, so J-31 should be bought to bridge the gap until said platform (15 years from now?) can be ready.


----------



## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.
> 
> There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.
> 
> To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.
> 
> Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.
> 
> I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.
> 
> How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.
> 
> The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.
> 
> Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.
> 
> Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.



Dear Sir,

Nice reply and I wonder why PAF and especially PN have not taken decision in this regard. Further You are quite right that JF17 is there only to complement main strike Fighter it can;t be used in lead role. For deep offence we should at least go for navalised version of J11 series 1 to squadrons and in case if possible instead of J11, J16 should be much better option almost competitive as per specs to any modern jet. 

Further due to secrecy maintained by Chinese we can't get complete specs of mentioned jets so should not degrade their qualities as happened in the past by many member's. Further u before Chinese president visit said that PN is going for improved variant of JH7 but still no news out there.

The Chinese are not fools to offer an under powered /semi stealth platform to Pak, as PAF shall be testing ground for these jets actual performance. The Chinese are continuously improving this jet and will offer this to Pak only when they are satisfied with the performance. So pressure is on Chinese. They knew due to cost factor it shall be inducted in limited numbers in PAF. The Chinese main target market is Arab countries along with few North American countries and may be few African nations.


----------



## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> Nice reply and I wonder why PAF and especially PN have not taken decision in this regard. Further You are quite right that JF17 is there only to complement main strike Fighter it can;t be used in lead role. For deep offence we should at least go for navalised version of J11 series 1 to squadrons and in case if possible instead of J11, J16 should be much better option almost competitive as per specs to any modern jet.
> 
> Further due to secrecy maintained by Chinese we can't get complete specs of mentioned jets so should not degrade their qualities as happened in the past by many member's. Further u before Chinese president visit said that PN is going for improved variant of JH7 but still no news out there.
> 
> The Chinese are not fools to offer an under powered /semi stealth platform to Pak, as PAF shall be testing ground for these jets actual performance. The Chinese are continuously improving this jet and will offer this to Pak only when they are satisfied with the performance. So pressure is on Chinese. They knew due to cost factor it shall be inducted in limited numbers in PAF. The Chinese main target market is Arab countries along with few North American countries and may be few African nations.




Hi,

Rest assured that if Pakistan and China agree on a product---it will be the best that the Chinese will offer in that product line. For Pakistan---there is no hold back.

Just like the F7PG's that we got was an extremely superior aircraft by Chinese definition and did more than what it promised.

The navy should consider two sqdrn's of JH7B's---JF 17 by itself is not enough to do the job.

Just remember---out 6 flying out----1 or 2 aircraft will break through the quadrant and be able to launch their anti ship missiles---.

If it is a JF 17 with 2 of them----then you have a zero chance of a hit. Out of 8 missiles launched at ships----5 or 6 will be shot down----2 to 3 will hit----.

So---if out of your six Heavy aircraft if 2 of them are able to launch 6 to 8 missiles each at the enemythat will be between 12 to 16 missiles----which means now you will have the chance of scoring around 40--50% hits---. The higher the number of missiles---the higher the number of strikes by percentage---.

Lower the number of missiles launched----let us say 4 missiles launched at a flotilla of 4 ships---- by 2 JF 17's and all of them will be taken out by the ant missile defence of the ships---so you may not get a single hit and those two JF 17's that were able to sneak in---they will also be lost.

So---basically---in the first strikes---you need to overwhelm the opponent with the number of aircraft and missile strikes on the enemy ships---.

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## JonAsad

1 noob question-
How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-


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## CHI RULES

JonAsad said:


> 1 noob question-
> How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-


still in developing stage


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## Beast

JonAsad said:


> 1 noob question-
> How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-



RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?


----------



## JonAsad

Beast said:


> RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?


I am noob i got this from the OP-


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## SQ8

Beast said:


> RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?


Its called the RD-33...and until China can make engines that last beyond 200 hours..it is the engine that will be for any export.


----------



## danger007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.
> 
> There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.
> 
> To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.
> 
> Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.
> 
> I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.
> 
> How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.
> 
> The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.
> 
> Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.
> 
> Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.




Apart Sam does JF-17 have long legs to reach the ships ??? lets not forget IN air wing... are those jf 17 enough to counter Mig 29k and at the same time Naval strike mission???


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> Apart Sam does JF-17 have long legs to reach the ships ??? lets not forget IN air wing... are those jf 17 enough to counter Mig 29k and at the same time Naval strike mission???


A2A refuelling takes care of that. And yes, it can attack the Migs and do Naval strike. 

What is not guaranteed is its return after that mission.

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## danger007

Oscar said:


> A2A refuelling takes care of that. And yes, it can attack the Migs and do Naval strike.
> 
> What is not guaranteed is its return after that mission.




first of all are there any plan to Induct JF-17 into PN ,if yes then how many jets going to be Inducted... if No, will PAF allow PN to use it's jets for other roles???


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> first of all are there any plan to Induct JF-17 into PN ,if yes then how many jets going to be Inducted... if No, will PAF allow PN to use it's jets for other roles???


The PN will not operate fast jets but its budget may be cannibalized to get a JF-17 squadron going for the PAF at Karachi which will be dedicated to providing support for the PN.

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## CHI RULES

no one can forecast future with surety many developments in case of PAF and PN are due.


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## Mrc

JonAsad said:


> 1 noob question-
> How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-




Stealth does not mean invisible...it means invisible to radar...

You might be able to physically see the aircraft...but as long as it is invisible to radar... it will be qualified as stealth....and radar cannot see smoke

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## MastanKhan

JonAsad said:


> 1 noob question-
> How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-




Hi,

That smokey engine was a diversion a confusion---most people did not notice that the smoke was coming from one engine and the other was running clear----.

You cannot see smoke from 50 or a 100 miles and neither can your radar.

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## CHI RULES

Oscar said:


> A2A refueling takes care of that. And yes, it can attack the Migs and do Naval strike.
> 
> What is not guaranteed is its return after that mission.


in defensive role yes it can perform limited naval strikes but can't perform deep penetration missions further maximum range of anti ship missiles PN using is from 120 KM to 280 KM (C803) of which platform not clear whether installed on frigates or Mirages. I think Pak should launch new Naval Missiles with longer ranges i.e from 500 KM to 1500 KM at least with the help of China then we shall have real chance of attacking our enemy in their own naval limits with minimal damage. 

So PN should fit existing Missiles to expected JF17s at most we may arm them with RAAD cruise missile if useful for naval role with 350 KM+ range. Meanwhile navalised Babar cruise Missile with range from 1000 to 1200+ KM should fitted with any new Naval deep strike platform like J11B or J16 .


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> in defensive role yes it can perform limited naval strikes but can't perform deep penetration missions further maximum range of anti ship missiles PN using is from 120 KM to 280 KM (C803) of which platform not clear whether installed on frigates or Mirages. I think Pak should launch new Naval Missiles with longer ranges i.e from 500 KM to 1500 KM at least with the help of China then we shall have real chance of attacking our enemy in their own naval limits with minimal damage.
> 
> So PN should fit existing Missiles to expected JF17s at most we may arm them with RAAD cruise missile if useful for naval role with 350 KM+ range. Meanwhile navalised Babar cruise Missile with range from 1000 to 1200+ KM should fitted with any new Naval deep strike platform like J11B or J16 .



Hi,

These long range missiles that you are talking about----they are for fixed targets---like shipyards or at dock ships----. Anti ship missiles are those that you can launch at ships at sea. The newest one available for JF 17 would be around 150 to 200 miles---I am not sure.

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## CHI RULES

PN should fit existing Missiles to expected JF17s at most we may arm them with RAAD cruise missile if useful for naval role with 350 KM+ range. Meanwhile navalised Babar cruise Missile with range from 1000 to 1200+ KM should fitted with any new Naval deep strike platform like J11B or J16 .



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> These long range missiles that you are talking about----they are for fixed targets---like shipyards or at dock ships----. Anti ship missiles are those that you can launch at ships at sea. The newest one available for JF 17 would be around 150 to 200 miles---I am not sure.[/QUOTE
> 
> Sir,
> Brahmos current range is 500KM,DF21 D range 1450KM, HY4 China range 300 to 500KM,. Pak already has RAAD cruise Missile with Rnage of 350+km for slow moving or static Naval targets. Against strong future air defenses i.e Barak SAM Pak require long range ASHMs to attack Air craft Carrier and destroyers in the docks of enemy.
> (further most of above given missiles are not for static targets only)



Sir,
Brahmos current range is 500KM,DF21 D range 1450KM, HY4 China range 300 to 500KM,. Pak already has RAAD cruise Missile with Rnage of 350+km for slow moving or static Naval targets. Against strong future air defenses i.e Barak SAM Pak require long range ASHMs to attack Air craft Carrier and destroyers in the docks of enemy.
(further most of above given missiles are not for static targets only)


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## Mrc

Best solution is to adopt and build on df21 d technology..
With virtually no countermeasures against such a missile and a range that can be extended; it can keep any navy away from our shores...


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## CHI RULES

Pls clarify whether DF21 can hit moving naval targets or not ?


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## Mrc

It can hit a moving naval target...

Gen colin powell addressing a senate standing committee said that this missile does not change rules of the game... it changes the whole game all together


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## Pindi Boy

Rajaraja Chola said:


> The aircraft is in testing phase, and everyone are talking of buying J31 and comparing it with F35 . I mean guys, the aircraft doesnt have the 5th gen engine, which the F22 and F35 has, along with the combination of electronics in both birds..
> The Russians are working on the 5th gen engine to be outfitted on Pakfa , and thats why it takes some time.. And I guess, until such time Russians dont succeed in it, the Chinese would be forced to use 4th gen engine on its 5th gen fighters. (If you know what I mean  )
> J31 is a good platform, its going to be a decent 5th gen fighter. But comparing with F35 is a joke (for now)


Buddy please just grow up and stop looking america as ur #Dada g IT is proven that F 35 is just crap Even beaten by F 16


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## araz

usama fiaz said:


> Buddy please just grow up and stop looking america as ur #Dada g IT is proven that F 35 is just crap Even beaten by F 16


That is an unfair remark. it is not reflective of the situation at hand. F35 maybe having problems but these are the problems encountered when you induct cutting edge technology. These problems will be solved and the f35 will become a feared adversary for any air arm. Let us all be realistic and accept the situation for what it is. You dont have nations lining up to procure an aircraft if it does not perform to its remit. The turn arounds have had more to do with the cost over runs and timing of induction.
Araz


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## Rajaraja Chola

usama fiaz said:


> Buddy please just grow up and stop looking america as ur #Dada g IT is proven that F 35 is just crap Even beaten by F 16



Its we who should grow up. Anyone with a good defence knowledge will know USA is a world beater in all technologies "till now". We should dream to match them. Such is the reality now.


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## MastanKhan

usama fiaz said:


> Buddy please just grow up and stop looking america as ur #Dada g IT is proven that F 35 is just crap Even beaten by F 16



Sir,

This forum is read worldwide---. There are so many professionals over here so please avail this opportunity and listen and learn----and please don't comment on things that you don't know and don't understand about.

It is not good to look ignorant.

F35 is not designed to get into a dog fight with an F16----.

Just remember---whatever negative you hear about an American product---it is a smoke screen.

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## MastanKhan

usama fiaz said:


> i think u need burnol



spoken like a true 17 years old. It is better to learn than to retort.

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## krash

usama fiaz said:


> i think u need burnol



Tell us this, when have the Americans not fielded the most potent aircraft?

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## mike2000 is back

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> This forum is read worldwide---. There are so many professionals over here so please avail this opportunity and listen and learn----and please don't comment on things that you don't know and don't understand about.
> 
> It is not good to look ignorant.
> 
> F35 is not designed to get into a dog fight with an F16----.
> 
> Just remember---whatever negative you hear about an American product---it is a smoke screen.



Its funny that people think the U.S can build the worlds most sophisticated and only operational fifth generation fighter jet F-22 over a decade ago and yet its latest stealth fighter is a junk.? Makes no sense at all. Lmao.

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## Pindi Boy

MastanKhan said:


> spoken like a true 17 years old. It is better to learn than to retort.


yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????


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## Djinn

krash said:


> Tell us this, when have the Americans not fielded the most potent aircraft?


On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?


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## Viper0011.

Djinn said:


> On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?



In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!

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## Djinn

Viper0011. said:


> In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
> I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!


Please mention which MIG's went up against American aircraft's? Also American competitors are not Russians alone. Again all i sense is "if it's American it's best because its battle proven against Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya" Speaking of modern times i can quote examples were American state of the art "STEALTHY" f-22 lost to Russian SU-30. American report on j-10 is also well circulated one, so again do tell me..........How do we ascertain that American jets are the most superior.


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## Ultima Thule

usama fiaz said:


> yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????


Use the commonsense you think F-35 is crap then why they spending billions of $ it is most electronically advance plane of the world use your brain Miss you are acting like a 12 year old girl


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## Viper0011.

Djinn said:


> Please mention which MIG's went up against American aircraft's? Also American competitors are not Russians alone. Again all i sense is "if it's American it's best because its battle proven against Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya" Speaking of modern times i can quote examples were American state of the art "STEALTHY" f-22 lost to Russian SU-30. American report on j-10 is also well circulated one, so again do tell me..........How do we ascertain that American jets are the most superior.



Either you have NO clue, or you are just silly questioning stuff that you have NO idea about !!!! How about you do some research and learn for yourself before just wasting others time. 

Also, I'd LOVE to see where the -22 lost to SU-30 or ANY Russian jet even in a fun and simulated combat. Do share details with me. The only time so far, anyone was able to get a lock onto a -22 was an EFT, at very close range in dog fighting and that was also an IFR lock. Not through its AESA (apparently even the AESA's can't see a -22 when its flying right in front of the EFT and the pilot can visually see it and lock on it through IFR). Also remember, even in this scenario, the -22 isn't a dog fighter. I'd be VERY surprise if even 1% of the -22's ever see their enemies withing 2-3 miles!! 

Here, read up direct Israeli air battle with the Russians (not Arabs flying plans, but the Russian pilots flying Mig-21's): Ambush Over the Desert Israel AF VS Soviet AF 

Here are some recorded encounters during the 91's Gulf war:
*17 January 1991*
USAF F-15C vs. IRAF MiG-29
The first air-air kills of the war occurred when two USAF F-15Cs shot down two Iraqi MiG-29s.[2]
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF Mirage F1s
Later on the same night, an F-15C scored a double-kill against two Mirages with AIM-7 missiles. His wingman scored another kill on a third Mirage F1, for a total of three kills in the dogfight.[2]

USN F/A-18s vs. IRAF MiG-25s
On the first night of the war, two F/A-18s from the carrier USS _Saratoga_ were flying outside of Baghdad when two Iraqi MiG-25PDs interceptors from the 96th Squadron engaged them. In the beyond-visual-range (BVR) kill, one of the Iraqi MiGs piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Zuhair Dawood, fired an R-40 missile, shooting down one of the F/A-18's as it was travelling Mach 0.92. The pilot, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher, was killed. It is widely believed he died upon the impact of the missile.[2]
USAF F-111s vs. IRAF MiG-23
An Iraqi MiG-23 fired a R-24T missile at a F-111 on a bombing run and scored a hit, although the bomber made it safely back to base. Another similar incident occurred with the same Iraqi interceptor several minutes later, this F-111 also made it back to base despite the severe damage to the aircraft. This is Iraq's only success of the Persian Gulf War using MiG-23s.[4]

*19 January 1991*
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF MiG-25s
In a brief dogfight, two F-15Cs engaged and shot down two Iraqi MiG-25s attempting to engage them, both using AIM-7 missiles.[2][3] One was destroyed by Captain Rick Tuleni and the second by Captain Larry Pitts

*6 February 1991*
*USAF F-15C vs. IRAF Su-25s*
A F-15C spots two Iraqi Su-25s and gives chase, locking on, and shooting down both planes with AIM-9 missiles.[2]


*27 December 1992*
USAF F-16 vs. IRAF MiG-25
A MiG-25 crossed the no-fly zone and an F-16D shot it down with an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. It is the first kill with an AIM-120, and also the first USAF F-16 kill.[11]

.

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## In arduis fidelis

usama fiaz said:


> yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????


Boy a friendly advice just lay low for few days observe the forum then start commenting.You will thank me later for this.


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## Syed Hussain

mike2000 is back said:


> Its funny that people think the U.S can build the worlds most sophisticated and only operational fifth generation fighter jet F-22 over a decade ago and yet its latest stealth fighter is a junk.? Makes no sense at all. Lmao.


Because F-22 was not an "export product". No doubt F-35 has the most superior sensor and avionic package fielded and has "exceptional" stealth features BUT is "zero" in aerodynamics, speed, agility, range and payload(in stealth config).



Viper0011. said:


> In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
> I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!


A single RAF Typhoon defeated "3" Singaporean F-16's in a simulated dog fight during the testing process for a Singaporean bid for buying Jets ...Same RAF Typhoons went against F-16mlu's flown by Pakistani Pilots in 1 on 1 simulated dog fights during "Anatolian Eagle" exercise...and the result was 3 to 0 loss to Typhoons.

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## Djinn

Viper0011. said:


> Either you have NO clue, or you are just silly questioning stuff that you have NO idea about !!!! How about you do some research and learn for yourself before just wasting others time.
> 
> Also, I'd LOVE to see where the -22 lost to SU-30 or ANY Russian jet even in a fun and simulated combat. Do share details with me. The only time so far, anyone was able to get a lock onto a -22 was an EFT, at very close range in dog fighting and that was also an IFR lock. Not through its AESA (apparently even the AESA's can't see a -22 when its flying right in front of the EFT and the pilot can visually see it and lock on it through IFR). Also remember, even in this scenario, the -22 isn't a dog fighter. I'd be VERY surprise if even 1% of the -22's ever see their enemies withing 2-3 miles!!
> 
> Here, read up direct Israeli air battle with the Russians (not Arabs flying plans, but the Russian pilots flying Mig-21's): Ambush Over the Desert Israel AF VS Soviet AF
> 
> Here are some recorded encounters during the 91's Gulf war:
> *17 January 1991*
> USAF F-15C vs. IRAF MiG-29
> The first air-air kills of the war occurred when two USAF F-15Cs shot down two Iraqi MiG-29s.[2]
> USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF Mirage F1s
> Later on the same night, an F-15C scored a double-kill against two Mirages with AIM-7 missiles. His wingman scored another kill on a third Mirage F1, for a total of three kills in the dogfight.[2]
> 
> USN F/A-18s vs. IRAF MiG-25s
> On the first night of the war, two F/A-18s from the carrier USS _Saratoga_ were flying outside of Baghdad when two Iraqi MiG-25PDs interceptors from the 96th Squadron engaged them. In the beyond-visual-range (BVR) kill, one of the Iraqi MiGs piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Zuhair Dawood, fired an R-40 missile, shooting down one of the F/A-18's as it was travelling Mach 0.92. The pilot, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher, was killed. It is widely believed he died upon the impact of the missile.[2]
> USAF F-111s vs. IRAF MiG-23
> An Iraqi MiG-23 fired a R-24T missile at a F-111 on a bombing run and scored a hit, although the bomber made it safely back to base. Another similar incident occurred with the same Iraqi interceptor several minutes later, this F-111 also made it back to base despite the severe damage to the aircraft. This is Iraq's only success of the Persian Gulf War using MiG-23s.[4]
> 
> *19 January 1991*
> USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF MiG-25s
> In a brief dogfight, two F-15Cs engaged and shot down two Iraqi MiG-25s attempting to engage them, both using AIM-7 missiles.[2][3] One was destroyed by Captain Rick Tuleni and the second by Captain Larry Pitts
> 
> *6 February 1991*
> *USAF F-15C vs. IRAF Su-25s*
> A F-15C spots two Iraqi Su-25s and gives chase, locking on, and shooting down both planes with AIM-9 missiles.[2]
> 
> 
> *27 December 1992*
> USAF F-16 vs. IRAF MiG-25
> A MiG-25 crossed the no-fly zone and an F-16D shot it down with an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. It is the first kill with an AIM-120, and also the first USAF F-16 kill.[11]
> 
> .


F-15 vs MIG 21, Su 25, MIG 23, Mirage F1...............Oh yeah that is indeed some competition. The fact that you are comparing USAF's top of the line fighter with obsolete jets says a lot about how weak your argument is. Yes that was Euro-Fighter scoring a win against F-22---which again negates the notion that "American jets are superior". At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better? Why don't you answer by comparing current generation fighters like SU30, SU35, MIG35, J10, J11, J15, Rafale, Euro-fighter, Gripen. Instead of gloating over American wins over nations like Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.P.S Instead of advising others, how about you develop some comprehension skills and try to understand others point of view before jumping guns with your peripheral preconceived notions.


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## Al-Taïr

People .....vwhich page of this thread should i go to, to actualy read something about fc31.. . . & as for american jets... There is a reason we have such a good kil ratio against indians& and still are very much interested in F-16s.. . Learn to respect the technology.


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## Viper0011.

Djinn said:


> F-15 vs MIG 21, Su 25, MIG 23, Mirage F1...............Oh yeah that is indeed some competition. The fact that you are comparing USAF's top of the line fighter with obsolete jets says a lot about how weak your argument is. Yes that was Euro-Fighter scoring a win against F-22---which again negates the notion that "American jets are superior". At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better? Why don't you answer by comparing current generation fighters like SU30, SU35, MIG35, J10, J11, J15, Rafale, Euro-fighter, Gripen. Instead of gloating over American wins over nations like Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.P.S Instead of advising others, how about you develop some comprehension skills and try to understand others point of view before jumping guns with your peripheral preconceived notions.



The comparisons I gave you, also had MIG-29's in it. You conveniently forgot that. It was supposed to be an Apple to Apple comparison. Then, the Russian Mig-21's, attacking Israeli Mirages is also an Apple to Apple comparison. The Pakistani F-16's have also scored kills against the Russian jets of that time. There is no weak argument here. I provided facts to you. You just want to make silly comments and ignore what you want ignored so you can TRY to score a point which otherwise makes no sense. 

Euro-fighter won against a -22.....did you read my post with attention? The -22 isn't a dog fighter.....putting a boxer in a dog cage doesn't mean the boxer would win. He would try to survive the dog attack and would definitely throw a few punches in, before escaping, or the dog can totally nail him. But irrespective of the outcome, the boxer wasn't trained to fight dogs!!! Similarly, the -22 wasn't designed to dog fight !!!

You asked me SPECIFICALLY to show you details on where the American jets have fought against the Russians. I did give you all those details. Now you are trying to change topic as my provided details proved you wrong.

Out of the list you provided of 4th and 4++ gen aircraft's, I'd personally pick EFT for an air force. I wouldn't pitch the EFT against the F-22 in a real war as you'll end up losing a whole squadron of the EFT's by a pair of the -22's within a few minutes post contact. But the EFT's can handle everything else from your list.

The next one on the list is a tie between SU-35 and the F-15. SU-30 is simply somewhat upgraded SU-27. Outside of the upgraded radar in MKI version of it, there are some serious maintenance and performance flaws in SU-30. I'd put the SU-35 above all other MIG and SU-X family of aircrafts.


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## Djinn

Viper0011. said:


> The comparisons I gave you, also had MIG-29's in it. You conveniently forgot that. It was supposed to be an Apple to Apple comparison. Then, the Russian Mig-21's, attacking Israeli Mirages is also an Apple to Apple comparison. The Pakistani F-16's have also scored kills against the Russian jets of that time. There is no weak argument here. I provided facts to you. You just want to make silly comments and ignore what you want ignored so you can TRY to score a point which otherwise makes no sense.
> 
> Euro-fighter won against a -22.....did you read my post with attention? The -22 isn't a dog fighter.....putting a boxer in a dog cage doesn't mean the boxer would win. He would try to survive the dog attack and would definitely throw a few punches in, before escaping, or the dog can totally nail him. But irrespective of the outcome, the boxer wasn't trained to fight dogs!!! Similarly, the -22 wasn't designed to dog fight !!!
> 
> You asked me SPECIFICALLY to show you details on where the American jets have fought against the Russians. I did give you all those details. Now you are trying to change topic as my provided details proved you wrong.
> 
> Out of the list you provided of 4th and 4++ gen aircraft's, I'd personally pick EFT for an air force. I wouldn't pitch the EFT against the F-22 in a real war as you'll end up losing a whole squadron of the EFT's by a pair of the -22's within a few minutes post contact. But the EFT's can handle everything else from your list.
> 
> The next one on the list is a tie between SU-35 and the F-15. SU-30 is simply somewhat upgraded SU-27. Outside of the upgraded radar in MKI version of it, there are some serious maintenance and performance flaws in SU-30. I'd put the SU-35 above all other MIG and SU-X family of aircrafts.


LOL i feel like i am replying to a 10 year old.


> A MIG-25PDS, piloted by Lt. Zuhair Dawood of the 84th Fighter Squadron, shot down an U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornet from VFA-81 on the first night of the war.
> Flying a MIG-29 he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1A with R-60 missiles.
> In another incident, an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 eluded eight USAF F-15C Eagles, firing three missiles at a USAF EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then out-ran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats; none of which could reach them.


Please note all this is from western sources and the history proves it that they are not very authentic especially American and Izzraeli, but still they serve well to refute your perception.
*So applying your logic here proves that MIG25 is superior to F-15 AND F-18.
Last time i checked Mirages were FRENCH and not American, so try harder.
Yes PAF f-16's scored kills, but MIG's scored kills too.*
Wow how conveniently you bothered to mention generations now but some how cunningly ignored to mention them while gloating over American kills against Iraq?
The rest of your post is solely based on your subjective assessment and thus allow me to say that since there are no International benchmarks to award jets from a particular country as best........*.The notion that American jets are most superior is utterly flawed and partial.*

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## Viper0011.

Djinn said:


> *LOL i feel like i am replying to a 10 year old.*
> 
> Please note all this is from western sources and the history proves it that they are not very authentic especially American and Izzraeli, but still they serve well to refute your perception.
> *So applying your logic here proves that MIG25 is superior to F-15 AND F-18.
> Last time i checked Mirages were FRENCH and not American, so try harder.
> Yes PAF f-16's scored kills, but MIG's scored kills too.*
> Wow how conveniently you bothered to mention generations now but some how cunningly ignored to mention them while gloating over American kills against Iraq?
> The rest of your post is solely based on your subjective assessment and thus allow me to say that since there are no International benchmarks to award jets from a particular country as best........*.The notion that American jets are most superior is utterly flawed and partial.*



See the bold above:

1) So you have no facts to come back with and a ton of facts I provided, make you feel like you are talking to a child? I think there is only one child here and that's you.

2) I never "applied any logic" saying Mig-25 was superior to F-15 and the F-18, in historical kills I mentioned to you, there are many Mig-25 who were taken out by the -15 and -18's. You obviously can't read simple enlish!!!

3) Mirages ARE French. What you missed from that link was the F-4's which were a part of that attack on the Soviets. Again issue with reading simple English and paying attention to details !! 

4) If the notion that American jets are superior is flawed. You should tell your PAF to immediately convert ALL jets to Mig-25 and 29 and SU-30. Per your logic, the PAF may not be able to defend themselves as the American planes aren't superior and the IAF is filled with superior planes like Mig-25, Mig, 29 and SU-30's.

Last but not least, don't respond to my post or add another one on here asking me to participate. When you learn a thing or two about REAL life, how the US jets have ruled the skies, whether it was the Russians or anyone else, you can come back and have a conversation.

@Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.


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## Djinn

Viper0011. said:


> See the bold above:
> 
> 1) So you have no facts to come back with and a ton of facts I provided, make you feel like you are talking to a child? I think there is only one child here and that's you.
> 
> 2) I never "applied any logic" saying Mig-25 was superior to F-15 and the F-18, in historical kills I mentioned to you, there are many Mig-25 who were taken out by the -15 and -18's. You obviously can't read simple enlish!!!
> 
> 3) Mirages ARE French. What you missed from that link was the F-4's which were a part of that attack on the Soviets. Again issue with reading simple English and paying attention to details !!
> 
> 4) If the notion that American jets are superior is flawed. You should tell your PAF to immediately convert ALL jets to Mig-25 and 29 and SU-30. Per your logic, the PAF may not be able to defend themselves as the American planes aren't superior and the IAF is filled with superior planes like Mig-25, Mig, 29 and SU-30's.
> 
> Last but not least, don't respond to my post or add another one on here asking me to participate. When you learn a thing or two about REAL life, how the US jets have ruled the skies, whether it was the Russians or anyone else, you can come back and have a conversation.
> 
> @Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.


You sir are a dogmatist and this is rightly expected of you.
I never said MIG's are superior. I only illustrated that by using your "logic" If it escaped your understanding then i am not to be blamed.
PAF's love affair with American tech is a different topic & cannot be used as a benchmark to rule that "AMERICAN JETS ARE SUPERIOR"
No one can deny that IAF has got an edge over PAF.
A humble advise don't try to force your preposterous and fanatical whims on others when you don't have the stomach to digest reality. You quoted my post first, so i have every right to answer your gibberish as i please.
Trying to blow my statement out of proportion is only reflecting the limited mental agility that you posses.
Again i have never said 'American tech is inferior' but what i am highlighting is the absolute fact that, in the absence of any standard competition GLOBALLY it can't be ruled that American jets are the most advanced and the others are inferior
Calling in enforcements johnny! too chicken to fight your own battles? Anyways, i fight fire with fire so here goes. @Chinese-Dragon @Abingdonboy @ChineseTiger1986 @MilSpec @vostok @TaiShang @cnleio @Deino Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.

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## MilSpec

Djinn said:


> You sir are a dogmatist and this is rightly expected of you.
> I never said MIG's are superior. I only illustrated that by using your "logic" If it escaped your understanding then i am not to be blamed.
> PAF's love affair with American tech is a different topic & cannot be used as a benchmark to rule that "AMERICAN JETS ARE SUPERIOR"
> No one can deny that IAF has got an edge over PAF.
> A humble advise don't try to force your preposterous and fanatical whims on others when you don't have the stomach to digest reality. You quoted my post first, so i have every right to answer your gibberish as i please.
> Trying to blow my statement out of proportion is only reflecting the limited mental agility that you posses.
> Again i have never said 'American tech is inferior' but what i am highlighting is the absolute fact that, in the absence of any standard competition GLOBALLY it can't be ruled that American jets are the most advanced and the others are inferior
> Calling in enforcements johnny! too chicken to fight your own battles? Anyways, i fight fire with fire so here goes. @Chinese-Dragon @Abingdonboy @ChineseTiger1986 @MilSpec @vostok @TaiShang @cnleio @Deino Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.


This is what happens when you engage a non-technical individual in a technical debate.



Djinn said:


> At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better?


You can't because all are slightly different, have more or less different philosophy of use, and has it's own advantages and limitations. All we can do is objectively study the capabilities and limitations of the aircrafts/munitions/tactics in question.

Based on these capabilities and limitations what fits, the immediate threat scenario is the better aircraft for you.



Viper0011. said:


> @Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.



@Oscar I would like to learn some of those basics too....

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## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> I would like to learn some of those basics too....



You should scroll up and see the previous content I had provided him from the Gulf war of the 90's, with dates and encounters, etc. That would give you a lot of stuff to read and learn about.


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## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> You should scroll up and see the previous content I had provided him from the Gulf war of the 90's, with dates and encounters, etc. That would give you a lot of stuff to read and learn about.


again not, operational history, but basics of combat platform evaluations.

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## krash

Djinn said:


> On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?



Hmmmm.....let's see. Maybe it's that they had assets (5th gen) decades before anyone thought of making one? Maybe its the fact that aviation terminologies themselves are created by them, which then everyone else tries to live up to? Maybe it's that they pioneered pretty much everything that we see in modern combat aircraft? Maybe, it's that they were already fielding technology (e.g. stealth) many years before anyone even thought it could be done? Maybe it's that some of their assets only came to be known about because they decided to retire them (SR-71)? Maybe it's that they make prototypes (the X series) just to research single/some aspect(s) of aircraft flight? Maybe it's the performance of their birds; maintenance, combat history, etc., etc.? I don't know, take your pick....


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## drunken-monke

kakajee said:


> we should get rid of corruption first...Indian meds recently banned in us


Import alert... That what it is precisely.. Once you comply with USFDA and get you site FDA approved again by audit, one can again export medicine to USA.. Meanwhile, India is the largest supplier of generic medicine to USA outside USA...


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## Super Falcon

We need this greyfalcon other wise we are at mercy of iaf 

Iaf looking for F 35 now and along with T 50 we cant fight air war against these jets with 3 gen jets


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## MastanKhan

Djinn said:


> Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.



Hi,

Sorry to interject---indeed the American jets are based on 'some kind' of martian technology. The rest of the world has not be able to manufacture the likes of a J58 engine ( for SR 71 )---which came out in 1960 I believe----and it does not look like one coming for another 25 years----.

So 70 - 80 years ahead of time and it is not martian technology.

The U S is so far ahead of other nations---that it has stopped production of new heavy bombers--because the ones produced in the early 60's---are being re-furbished to fight for another 30-40 years---the B52 bomber.


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry to interject---indeed the American jets are based on 'some kind' of martian technology. The rest of the world has not be able to manufacture the likes of a J58 engine ( for SR 71 )---which came out in 1960 I believe----and it does not look like one coming for another 25 years----.
> 
> So 70 - 80 years ahead of time and it is not martian technology.
> 
> The U S is so far ahead of other nations---that it has stopped production of new heavy bombers--because the ones produced in the early 60's---are being re-furbished to fight for another 30-40 years---the B52 bomber.



Yes, recently whole fleet of B52 is going for upgrades.

As far as FC31, again its old cheap smoky Russian RD93 engines..Smoke literally a big turn off for any high tech looking plane..


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## In arduis fidelis

HAIDER said:


> Yes, recently whole fleet of B52 is going for upgrades.
> 
> As far as FC31, again its old cheap smoky Russian RD93 engines..Smoke literally a big turn off for any high tech looking plane..


By the time it comes out chinese indigenous engines would be ready.So no worries on that front.


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## Pindi Boy

can the J-31 stand up to HAL FGFA?

PAK FA seems to be way ahead of the Chinese so HAL FGFA is based on it


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## Mrc

usama fiaz said:


> can the J-31 stand up to HAL FGFA?
> 
> PAK FA seems to be way ahead of the Chinese so HAL FGFA is based on it



Can you enligyten us how you reached that conclusion? 
Russians have cut order for pak fa to 24. Indians rumoured to 35...it seems to b in trouble....

Chinese are building atleast 3 new stealth fighters...with j 20 might b entering service soon..

What facts are behind your querry??


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## Pindi Boy

Mrc said:


> Can you enligyten us how you reached that conclusion?
> Russians have cut order for pak fa to 24. Indians rumoured to 35...it seems to b in trouble....
> 
> Chinese are building atleast 3 new stealth fighters...with j 20 might b entering service soon..
> 
> What facts are behind your querry??


Sir did u know chinese j22 is copy of mig 1.4



usama fiaz said:


> Sir did u know chinese j22 is copy of mig 1.4


sir i have just ask a question if i am wrong plz tell me hoe j 31 is better than FGFA and PAk FA + F35


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## Mrc

Mig 1.24 never got built...exists only in video games

There is no fighter called j 22 ...i even tried to google it... j 20 is not a copy of any thing previously seen or known..

You are wrong in a sense since no body actually knows any thing significant about russian chinese or american stealth fighters...so its premature to discuss superiority or inferiority...

But as a general rule; what we know so far f22 is likely to be best followed closely by j 20....
Pak fa likely to be the worse...

Rest google your self amd update your knowledge before making statements.. few people rry to keep it serious here


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## Tameem

*MAKS: Chinese firm unveils new sensors for J-20, J-31*
*
26 August, 2015
BY: Stephen Trimble
Moscow
*
A privately-owned Chinese sensor company has unveiled a suite of air-to-air and air-to-ground sensors in development for the latest Chinese and Russian fighters.

Wang Yanyong, technical director for Beijing A-Star Science and Technology, confirms that two systems – the EOTS-89 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and the EORD-31 infrared search and track (IRST) – are in development for China’s J-20 and J-31 fighters.

Marketing brochures on A-Star’s booth suggest that the J-20 could use the passive sensors to detect and aim missiles against the Northrop Grumman B-2 bomber and Lockheed Martin F-22 fighter, even while its radar is being being jammed by a Boeing EA-18G Growler. It lists detection ranges for the B-2 at 150km and for the F-22 at up to 110km.

Both systems have completed ground testing in a laboratory, and are now ready to enter flight testing, he says. Chinese combat aircraft manufacturer AVIC is considering integrating the sensors on a testbed aircraft, then could decide to test them on the J-20 and J-31, he says. Operational status is at least a year away for both sensors and possibly longer, Yanyong adds.

A-Star exhibited the systems at MAKS in hopes of attracting buyers from Russian and Commonwealth of Independent States countries, he says.
MAKS: Chinese firm unveils new sensors for J-20, J-31

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## Blue Marlin

Tameem said:


> *MAKS: Chinese firm unveils new sensors for J-20, J-31*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 26 August, 2015
> 
> BY: Stephen Trimble
> 
> Moscow
> *
> A privately-owned Chinese sensor company has unveiled a suite of air-to-air and air-to-ground sensors in development for the latest Chinese and Russian fighters.
> 
> Wang Yanyong, technical director for Beijing A-Star Science and Technology, confirms that two systems – the EOTS-89 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and the EORD-31 infrared search and track (IRST) – are in development for China’s J-20 and J-31 fighters.
> 
> Marketing brochures on A-Star’s booth suggest that the J-20 could use the passive sensors to detect and aim missiles against the Northrop Grumman B-2 bomber and Lockheed Martin F-22 fighter, even while its radar is being being jammed by a Boeing EA-18G Growler. It lists detection ranges for the B-2 at 150km and for the F-22 at up to 110km.
> 
> Both systems have completed ground testing in a laboratory, and are now ready to enter flight testing, he says. Chinese combat aircraft manufacturer AVIC is considering integrating the sensors on a testbed aircraft, then could decide to test them on the J-20 and J-31, he says. Operational status is at least a year away for both sensors and possibly longer, Yanyong adds.
> 
> A-Star exhibited the systems at MAKS in hopes of attracting buyers from Russian and Commonwealth of Independent States countries, he says.
> MAKS: Chinese firm unveils new sensors for J-20, J-31


a lot of people think that chinas tech is not good but it catching up at a unprecedented pace i would imagine about 5-7 years away.

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## moving_ahead1

apni chezai banana sekho bhaiyo.......warna duniya mai kahin izat ni pao gay


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## BoQ77

2x WS-13 can reach the performance of 1xF135 on F35 or not?


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## Hurter

moving_ahead1 said:


> apni chezai banana sekho bhaiyo.......warna duniya mai kahin izat ni pao gay



We've made according to our resources.. And IA we will make even more. It's all about money.

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## Khanivore

PL-15 depicted for J-31 in this CG:

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## Al-Taïr

Any updates on engine? ws13? TVC in particular...... any thing? Latest news? Rumors? Wild guesses :p


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## AsianLion

Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, told reporters in November, “Since the start of the J-31's development, we have planned to use the plane to end some foreign nations' dominance of the fifth-generation fighter jet. One of its variants will be specifically designed for export,” Chinese media reported.

Export of the J-31 would be a breakthrough for China's aviation industry because the plane would give AVIC a substantial boost in competition with Western defense aircrafts.

*The J-31 has a combat range of 1,200km and a top speed of 2,205 km/h. The fifth-generation fighter jet also has a maximum payload capacity of 8 metric tons and service span of 30 years.*

Xu Bangnian, a professor at the PLA Air Force Command Institute, said he expected international demand for the plane as it seemed to be the only choice for developing countries who are interested in an affordable fifth-generation stealth aircraft.

Source: Now on Sale: China Set to Export New Fifth Generation Fighter Jet


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## GS Zhou

RKO said:


> im not a hacker...china got the best hackers in the world!!!!


Since India is so proud of its IT technologies, why not hack into Pantagon and then build your own F22 or F35?

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## volatile

GS Zhou said:


> Since India is so proud of its IT technologies, why not hack into Pantagon and then build your own F22 or F35?


Nice one .Only thing Indians can do is called SU-30 as there own project ,MIG Ug upgrade Indigenous ,with LCA more than half of components from Design to engine its own .In Urdu we say Nukul ke liya bhi ukul chahiya hottey hai means in order to copy you still need wisdom


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## mymeaningislion

moving_ahead1 said:


> apni chezai banana sekho bhaiyo.......warna duniya mai kahin izat ni pao gay



Please give us a time device to stop time for atleast 30 to 40 years....just google " development of engine" and you would know that big countries took and spend how much time and effort in refining the tech they are presenting now....so if you suggest that we can do that ....i am sure we can but atleast it would require 10 years ....so in coming ten years what are our chance of survival....bro be realistic...we need JV's....it would be like some one give you hand in some difficult job...got my point


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## MastanKhan

GS Zhou said:


> Since India is so proud of its IT technologies, why not hack into Pantagon and then build your own F22 or F35?



Hi,

They cannot build with actual blueprints and tech support----and you talk about building one from hacked material.

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## Zain Malik

tarrar said:


> J31 is very young & it will take time for J31 to develop completely.
> 
> I see China really working hard on J20 more than J31. any how lets wait & see what happens, PAF is looking for a modern & advance fighters so lets hope for the best.


Is Pakistan serous for buying this aircraft? well it seems to be good in PAF....!!!!


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## Ultima Thule

Zain Malik said:


> Is Pakistan serous for buying this aircraft? well it seems to be good in PAF....!!!!


it is only option viable to pakistan, F-35 no chance and very expensive, TFX is initial stages of their development, KFX late stages of development and least chance.


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## muhammadali233

why not go for J-20 has better design,more fire power can easily outperform any western stealth counterparts,engine is surprisingly not RD-93 that thing smokes more than 2 stroke rickshaw to be honest.
FC 31 is a 5th gen aircraft but just not a capable one.
People read in the articles that the Chinese stole/hacked F-35 tech hence claim FC-31 equally powerful to F-35 but what they did not read was it was hacked back in 2009,F-35 tech is improving every second had many facelift and alot new gizmos added,Chinese engineers are quite talented and are improving the FC 31 but F 35 is being jointly devolved by all finest engineers from 5 countries who made there own aircraft not copied others....
FC-31 might be good against 3rd or 4th gen aircraft but surely it can not stand a chance against any 5th gen in the block.
It failed to impress people in the air show too.
J-20 is a better option overall then FC-31,idk ACM knows better.


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## Zain Malik

*What are the reasons why PAF is not going for EuroFighter Typhoon or Gripen....????*


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## muhammadali233

Zain Malik said:


> *What are the reasons why PAF is not going for EuroFighter Typhoon or Gripen....????*


too expensive in that price you can get a Russian Su 35 or a Chinese 5th gen.
other than that the typhoon,gripen and rafale are all European so they are alot under American influence,embargoes can be placed and restrictions ultimately giving us a hard time like we had with the 16's.


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## Ultima Thule

muhammadali233 said:


> why not go for J-20 has better design,more fire power can easily outperform any western stealth counterparts,engine is surprisingly not RD-93 that thing smokes more than 2 stroke rickshaw to be honest.
> FC 31 is a 5th gen aircraft but just not a capable one.
> People read in the articles that the Chinese stole/hacked F-35 tech hence claim FC-31 equally powerful to F-35 but what they did not read was it was hacked back in 2009,F-35 tech is improving every second had many facelift and alot new gizmos added,Chinese engineers are quite talented and are improving the FC 31 but F 35 is being jointly devolved by all finest engineers from 5 countries who made there own aircraft not copied others....
> FC-31 might be good against 3rd or 4th gen aircraft but surely it can not stand a chance against any 5th gen in the block.
> It failed to impress people in the air show too.
> J-20 is a better option overall then FC-31,idk ACM knows better.


J-20 is not for export, just like F-22 and as for engine of J-31 is temporary one in production their is WS-13A with J-31


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## muhammadali233

pakistanipower said:


> J-20 is not for export, just like F-22 and as for engine of J-31 is temporary one in production their is WS-13A with J-31


 Chalo kuch na honay say hona bheter hai


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## Ultima Thule

muhammadali233 said:


> Chalo kuch na honay say hona bheter hai


I think J-31 is better design than J-20 , J-20 has a oversized canard surfaces which might be increases its frontal RCS and from the rear its worst than its front, its has ventral fins which might be increases its RCS from the sides, its engine is not shielded from below and sides, I don't like the J-20 current configuration because is over hyped by China, no hard feeling my Chinese friends

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## Zain Malik

J31 is a good aircraft with most advance technology that can even compete fighters like F-35 and American Raptors..
Pakistan should go for it..!!!!


----------



## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> I think J-31 is better design than J-20 , J-20 has a oversized canard surfaces which might be increases its frontal RCS and from the rear its worst than its front, its has ventral fins which might be increases its RCS from the sides, its engine is not shielded from below and sides, I don't like the J-20 current configuration because is over hyped by China, no hard feeling my Chinese friends



Its not hard feeling but rather you have fed with too many American/western propaganda. PLAAF top brass going through the comparison by China top aviation scientist concluded J-20 is superior than J-31 in all aspect which is the reason why J-20 is selected as PLAAF 5th gen fighter while J-31 relegated to export.

Ventral fin is to shield RCS from side bottom. The shape is specially configurate for that purpose. Canard if with careful alignment do not contributed too much of RCS. Please read the report from Song Wencong assessment of J-20.

Translation of J-20 Article by Dr. Song Wencong


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## silent hawk

Sooner or later we would have to go for a stealth fighter.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Its not hard feeling but rather you have fed with too many American/western propaganda. PLAAF top brass going through the comparison by China top aviation scientist concluded J-20 is superior than J-31 in all aspect which is the reason why J-20 is selected as PLAAF 5th gen fighter while J-31 relegated to export.
> 
> Ventral fin is to shield RCS from side bottom. The shape is specially configurate for that purpose. Canard if with careful alignment do not contributed too much of RCS. Please read the report from Song Wencong assessment of J-20.
> 
> Translation of J-20 Article by Dr. Song Wencong


OK sir I admitted the fact that J-20 has better stealth than J-31 thank you for your article


----------



## MastanKhan

Zain Malik said:


> *What are the reasons why PAF is not going for EuroFighter Typhoon or Gripen....????*




Hi,

It is too late to buy the Grippen now----I greatly favored that aircraft along with the Rafale. It should have been bought in 2003-----almost 12 years have gone by---.

The JF17 BLK2 is better equipped than any Grippen as an overall package---so---basically more advance---remember---you got air to surface---air to air and air to ship missiles available----all weather and night time flying capability and smart weapons launch capability. ----same against Grippen NG---the BLK 3 with aesa would be as capable----but again with the total weapons package----it would be more potent and advanced.

At this time it does not make any sense to buy a Grippen.

What makes sense is to buy heavy strike aircraft.

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## Zain Malik

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is too late to buy the Grippen now----I greatly favored that aircraft along with the Rafale. It should have been bought in 2003-----almost 12 years have gone by---.
> 
> The JF17 BLK2 is better equipped than any Grippen as an overall package---so---basically more advance---remember---you got air to surface---air to air and air to ship missiles available----all weather and night time flying capability and smart weapons launch capability. ----same against Grippen NG---the BLK 3 with aesa would be as capable----but again with the total weapons package----it would be more potent and advanced.
> 
> At this time it does not make any sense to buy a Grippen.
> 
> What makes sense is to buy heavy strike aircraft.


Understood ,

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## Falcon Madeeha

Fully armed JF 17 Thunder Block-1 aircraft.

Weapons name ??


----------



## Akasa

Shenyang is looking for international partners for the FC-31 program.

AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive | Dubai Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week



> *AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive
> *
> China’s Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) has stated plans to fly a production version of its FC-31 Gyrfalcon fifth-generation fighter by 2019.
> 
> Although reluctant to take questions, company officials also stated they are in negotiations with the Chinese government to offer the aircraft to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force, despite previous reports that the fighter would only be offered for export.
> 
> Speaking in Dubai, where the company is displaying a model of the FC-31 outside China for the first time as the company begins the export push for the Gyrfalcon, Li Yuhai, deputy general manager at AVIC, said the aircraft was demonstrating the “technological and management progress” of the program.
> 
> Lin Peng, the FC-31’s chief designer, hinted that the company was looking for an international partner for the aircraft rather than the relationship it has with Pakistan’s Aeronautical Complex on the JF-17. He said that international customers would be able to customize their aircraft in terms of communication systems, sensors and weapons, something that would likely only be done outside China.
> 
> He added that the aircraft would be low-observable against a number of multi-spectrum sensors, and claimed the aircraft would be stealthy against L-band and Ku-band radars.
> 
> Peng said the aircraft’s primary armament would be the PL-9 short-range missile, the SD-10A medium-range air-to-air missile and small diameter bombs. He said the aircraft would be able to carry 2,000 kg (4,400 lb.) of weapons in its single internal bay and 6,000 kg (13,220 lb.) externally.
> 
> The company would not say which engine would power production aircraft but that it would be a “advanced medium thrust engine” producing 88.29 kN. (20,000 lb./9,000 kg) of thrust. The demonstrator aircraft is currently powered by the Russian RD-93 which powers the Mikoyan MiG-29.
> 
> With a first flight planned for 2019, an initial operating capability would occur some time in 2022/23 and the aircraft would become fully operationally capable two years later.

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## Ultima Thule

Manidabest said:


> PAF should go for 3 squadrons of j11, 3 squadrons of J31 and if possible atleaset 1 squadron of J20 but having in view that we are also manufacturing jf17 which needs to be accelerated and join Turkish TFX program


if we go J-11 series of aircraft unit price of J-11 is let assume 60 mil $ so 60*50= 3 billion $, as for J31 is in development stage, if final configration of J-31 is unit price 80 to 100 mil $, let assume 90 mil $ so 90*50=4.5 billion $, and J-20 is not for export it is a chinese specific program, if it is a possibility to purchase J-20, it unit price 120 mil $ to 150 Mil $, so 120*24=2.8 billion $, so total amount of money of these fighter is 10.3 billion $, and don't talk about Turkish TFX, it is in initial phase of development and i think it is ready in 2030 time-frame, we have no funds to purchase these three fighter and forget about Turkish TFX


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## Manidabest

but we can raise money lets say in next 10 years and i m sure we will get some soft loans for those aircraft...& i dont think tey will cost that high if we compare the prices with other aircrafts like f-35 also for TFX we should join this program .....


----------



## monitor

*China Touts Stealth Fighter Jet, But So Far No Takers*
Lara Seligman 12:18 p.m. EST November 8, 2015





(Photo: Aaron Mehta/Staff)

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DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — China showcased its first stealth fighter jet here on the opening day of the Dubai Air Show, but so far the fifth-generation aircraft has no customers in sight.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is "in negotiations" with the Chinese Air Force to buy the multi-role FC-31, AVIC project manager Lin Peng told reporters on Sunday. Peng declined to say when a deal would be finalized.

Top company officials briefed the media on the stealth characteristics and attack capabilities of the FC-31, but did not take questions from the audience.

This is the first time the Chinese company has showcased the FC-3, also known as the J-31 internationally, although a prototype aircraft flew during the Zhuhai Air Show in China last year. Chinese fighters are designated with a "J" for fighter and "FC" for export.


DEFENSE NEWS

With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement

FC-31 would be the first aircraft of its kind available to global customers who face US export restrictions or cannot afford Lockheed Martin's F-35 joint strike fighter. The Chinese company is trying to pitch the FC-31 as a competitor to the JSF, but at this point it is unclear how successful this will be. The customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan.

The FC-31, which closely resembles the F-35, is a medium-sized, low-observable aircraft designed for "the demands of future battlefield environments," Peng told reporters during the briefing.

Officials touted the aircraft's "outstanding situational awareness" achieved with advanced radar, high maneuvering capabilities, and multi-spectrum low-observability. The plane is equipped with twin engines made in China, officials said — not the Russian RD-93 engines previously on the aircraft.

The FC-31 will carry the Small Diameter Bomb, as well as a variety of guided and unguided weapons, officials said.

*The test aircraft has been flying for more than two years, Peng told reporters after the briefing. AVIC is planning first flight of the production aircraft in 2019, with initial operational capability scheduled for 2022. The FC-31 will be fully operational in 2024.*

US officials and analysts widely believe the FC-31 design was stolen from the F-35 after reports of a major cyber breach of Lockheed's programs by Chinese hackers in April 2009.




DEFENSE NEWS

Industry Fears Massive Losses Through Espionage

Email: lseligman@defensenews.com

Twitter: @laraseligman

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## Ultima Thule

Manidabest said:


> but we can raise money lets say in next 10 years and i m sure we will get some soft loans for those aircraft...& i dont think tey will cost that high if we compare the prices with other aircrafts like f-35 also for TFX we should join this program .....


More feasible is to invest J-31 which is coming in 2025 2027 time frame and forget Turkish TFX, you might think these fighter s are expensive, and these fighter with AESA IRST and other goodies cost 25 to 35 million $ and don't forget Indian, Russian FFGA which is coming in India after 2020 to 2025​


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## Muhammad Omar

Can Pakistan Invest in J-31 to? Just like we did in JF-17? Local production of 5th generation aircraft in PAC to... + Few fighters we can have from Turkey... after a decade 

Duo of these would be deadly


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## Akasa

AVIC's ex-president has confirmed that the J-31 is capable of supercruise.

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## volatile

I agree with you over this ,but you have to understand what type of value we can offer to this project as earlier in JF program we already had a lot of experience of F16 but 5th Gen is all together different ball game .In my view R&D money is not an issue in case of J31 designers the cooperation has to be inform of experience and perfecting the tech by end user who should have fair knowledge of requirement .



Muhammad Omar said:


> Can Pakistan Invest in J-31 to? Just like we did in JF-17? Local production of 5th generation aircraft in PAC to... + Few fighters we can have from Turkey... after a decade
> 
> Duo of these would be deadly


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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> More feasible is to invest J-31 which is coming in 2025 2027 time frame and forget Turkish TFX, you might think these fighter s are expensive, and these fighter with AESA IRST and other goodies cost 25 to 35 million $ and don't forget Indian, Russian FFGA which is coming in India after 2020 to 2025​


PAF wants to buy these fighters off the shelf. Although JFT has been a success t was complicated by the Chinese AF subsequent refusal to induct these fighters inspite of the agreement. This had implications on its development pace and cost.PAF does not want a repeat of the same picture especially with a far more riskier project which could easily absorb 5-10 billion more in its development cycle. We need smaller number and a huge outlay may not be worth the benefit.

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## kurutoga

volatile said:


> I agree with you over this ,but you have to understand what type of value we can offer to this project.



Actually I think any partner of this type of projects can do is only to provide requirements, funding and share risk. Think of US, Russia, South Korea, Turkey ... because nobody has the experience flying a stealth fighter. For Pakistan, the issue is if you need a stealth fighter in 10 years. And if this is too early to send your requirements to the program. J-20 was produced out of PLA AF requirements, that is the only reason they are buying it.

On the other hand, J-31 appears to be a general purpose platform that contains a basic set of common denominator type features. Additional changes are possible through customization. Of course it does not mean PLA AF will never buy it. Depends on if different requirements will be formed later that J-20 can not handle.

In fact, I think FC-31 is easier to work with than Russia's new jet. Because it was designed from the ground up to be modular. T-50 on the other hand is based on Russia's specific requirements mostly.


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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  Nov 8
FC-31 briefing with AVIC was interesting. For export - not PLAAF. Second prototype to fly 'soon' incorporating many design changes.

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## Akasa

Windjammer said:


> *Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  Nov 8
> FC-31 briefing with AVIC was interesting. For export - not PLAAF. Second prototype to fly 'soon' incorporating many design changes.



In other words, the interview yielded no information of value.


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## Windjammer

SinoSoldier said:


> In other words, the interview yielded no information of value.



I guess the author would want to save that for his own publications.


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## Akasa

Windjammer said:


> I guess the author would want to save that for his own publications.



True that


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## Ultima Thule

Windjammer said:


> *Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  Nov 8
> FC-31 briefing with AVIC was interesting. For export - not PLAAF. Second prototype to fly 'soon' incorporating many design changes.[/QUOTE/
> What not for PLAAF, why windy bahi? They doesn't make like combo of F-22/F-35, please explain?


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## Windjammer

Could be several reasons, PLAAF focused on J-20, it may consider the FC-31 once it's ready to go into production.


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## LeGenD

Muhammad Omar said:


> Can Pakistan Invest in J-31 to? Just like we did in JF-17? Local production of 5th generation aircraft in PAC to... + Few fighters we can have from Turkey... after a decade
> 
> Duo of these would be deadly


Pakistan doesn't have much experience in the design of a stealthy aircraft and neither the resources to inject in to an ambitious military project.

Investment in JF-17 Thunder program was feasible on both technical and financial aspects. PAF had experience (in the use of) and inventory of F-16 aircraft and could provide meaningful input for the design of JF-17 Thunder aircraft. This military project was also cost-effective.


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## Muhammad Omar

LeGenD said:


> Pakistan doesn't have much experience in the design of a stealthy aircraft and neither the resources to inject in to an ambitious military project.
> 
> Investment in JF-17 Thunder program was feasible on both technical and financial aspects. PAF had experience (in the use of) and inventory of F-16 aircraft and could provide meaningful input for the design of JF-17 Thunder aircraft. This military project was also cost-effective.



Well if you put it this way... Did Pakistan had any Experience in making Fighter jets? NO but did we Invest in it Yes... Did Pakistan had Experience or People to Make Nuclear Weapons NO... But still we send them to the Universities so that they can lean and work on it and Alhamdulillah Pakistan succeeded and made Nuclear Bombs... 

To get the Experience of Stealthy Aircraft all it's need is to put some money and study and learn the system... 
We don't have to give 5 6 7 Billion Dollars right away to China but should invest some $Billions and pay them in years.. Remember J-31 is not coming before 2024... so we have 9 years and we can spare some 3 4 Billion in 9 years easily... 

And Chinese J-31 will come Cheap just like JF-17 we can continue to invest money in JF-17 as Economy is going up slowly so does our Military Budget


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## madmusti

Pakistan should join to the Project from South Korea instead of this Aircraft that even is a 5th Gen.


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## Muhammad Omar

madmusti said:


> Pakistan should join to the Project from South Korea instead of this Aircraft that even is a 5th Gen.



any specific reason?


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## Ultima Thule

madmusti said:


> Pakistan should join to the Project from South Korea instead of this Aircraft that even is a 5th Gen.


Sanction prone program for pakistan, KFX will be using too much technology from USA, my best bet is to stick J-31 program

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## mil-avia

*Side view :*






*950 × 428 pixels

*
Related link(s).

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## CHI RULES

madmusti said:


> Pakistan should join to the Project from South Korea instead of this Aircraft that even is a 5th Gen.


Korean fighter jet project is more looks like 4.5th gen jet just like Turkish project, both jets shall be used in complementary role alongwith true 5th gen jets.

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## The Eagle

if is it about to choose to join the project rather buying off the shelf, Turkey's project would be ideal in respect of their advancement in tech and would help a lot more to learn by this program. It was heard that J-31 is arriving in ISB for testing or anything yet no news nor any information about PAK-China development in J-31 program so far? does things iced or is it like no news to disclose yet but i hope process is underway


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## Manticore

pshamim at pakdef
''
F-31are being discussed now. Upto 60 may be purchased initially, if talks succeed hopefully
Quantities may vary. This is the latest information. Let's see what transpires next. 
Numbers are ambitious but where the money will come from. Apprehensive but assure the discussions are on''

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## asia2000

Manticore said:


> pshamim at pakdef
> ''
> F-31are being discussed now. Upto 60 may be purchased initially, if talks succeed hopefully
> Quantities may vary. This is the latest information. Let's see what transpires next.
> Numbers are ambitious but where the money will come from. Apprehensive but assure the discussions are on''


Is PAF joining the development? Someone said the 2nd prototype of FC-31 would come out this year.


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## Quwa

asia2000 said:


> Is PAF joining the development? Someone said the 2nd prototype of FC-31 would come out this year.


I don't think there's any other way to get the FC-31 program going, especially since the AVIC chief (during the Dubai Air Show) said that an external partner was being sought.


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## Wolf

Quwa said:


> I don't think there's any other way to get the FC-31 program going, especially since the AVIC chief (during the Dubai Air Show) said that an external partner was being sought.



How much investment in the project is being sought? If say 2 billion dollars of investment will get Pakistan to license produce them locally in 2 years time or if PAF gets 2 squadrons of FC 31 in 2 years time, then, its not a bad investment.


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## Quwa

Wolf said:


> How much investment in the project is being sought? If say 2 billion dollars of investment will get Pakistan to license produce them locally in 2 years time or if PAF gets 2 squadrons of FC 31 in 2 years time, then, its not a bad investment.


Unfortunately I don't know.


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## 592257001

araz said:


> PAF wants to buy these fighters off the shelf. Although JFT has been a success t was complicated by the Chinese AF subsequent refusal to induct these fighters inspite of the agreement. This had implications on its development pace and cost.PAF does not want a repeat of the same picture especially with a far more riskier project which could easily absorb 5-10 billion more in its development cycle. We need smaller number and a huge outlay may not be worth the benefit.



Interesting, this is the first time I've heard of such complication, do you have any source as to this information, sir? From what I know, JF-17/FC-1/Super-7 project never had a "J" series name , meaning it was never designed nor planned to be inducted as a fighter aircraft by the PLAAF (analogous to how only J-20 has the J series name, but not FC-31, which is meant for export). It would also be a doubtfully surprising move for the PLAAF to order the induction of two indigenous fighters of similar size in the same relative time frame, especially when the J-10 conducted its first test flight 5 years before the JF-17. 

On the contrary, do you not believe JF-17's development process has actually been EXPEDITED because of the PLAAF's investment into more advanced jets such as the J-10B and the J-20 during JF-17's later block's continuing development? The effort of research into the development of various sub-systems for those jets has allowed JF-17's own development to be free of obstacles due to trickle-down effect. Many of these "off-the-shelf" sub-systems such as EW suites/Avionics/weapons systems would not have been so easily accessible if they have to be made possible for the first time on the JF-17's platform.

FYI, the PLAAF did not favor JF-17 because it considers it sub-par, but because there is not a niche for light weight multi-role fighter in PLAAF. All jets are comprised of compromises due to their design requirement. PLAAF's most paramount requirement for J-10 was air-air combat, and ALL aircraft design has to yield to that, which resulted in little consideration to J-10's anti-ship/anti-surface capabilities. PLAAF's fine with that because its got dedicated strike fighters suc has JH-7 and various flanker derivatives, but PAF NEEDS a multi-role fighter that can excel in all those regard. It is only logical for both air force to equip different jets.

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## Viper0011.

mil-avia said:


> *Side view :*
> 
> View attachment 278355
> 
> *950 × 428 pixels
> 
> *
> Related link(s).



You realize this picture really means at this time in flight and with this weapons' configuration, the RCS is around 3(MS)s right? There is nothing stealthy with missiles hanging and the weapons bay opened!! You have got to hide everything....

If you want to fly this jet like this, its a waste of like $ 75 million per plane. JFT block III may be a better option for such configuration. Use this plane with stealthy techniques. Don't make it a sitting duck with weapon loads attached!!


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## 592257001

Viper0011. said:


> You realize this picture really means at this time in flight and with this weapons' configuration, the RCS is around 3(MS)s right? There is nothing stealthy with missiles hanging and the weapons bay opened!! You have got to hide everything....
> 
> If you want to fly this jet like this, its a waste of like $ 75 million per plane. JFT block III may be a better option for such configuration. Use this plane with stealthy techniques. Don't make it a sitting duck with weapon loads attached!!



Imagine an attack scenario on the Ins vikramaditya, PAF's FC-31 carries two C-802 externally, two BVR PL-12C internally and two WVR PL-10 internally (A VERY modest loadout for the FC-31). Even with a RCS of 3M squared due to the external ASMs (let's assume it's the non-stealth C-802), it will still be able to reach within ~250km of the Ins vikramaditya at a relatively high cruising altitude (for fuel conservation and maximizing ASM range), a range that's much closer than a non-stealth JF-17 could reach without being detected.

Upon detection of the FC-31's faint radar signal, Ins vikramaditya launches its MIGs and possibly Tejas  to intercept. Then, FC-31 launches both of its ASMs, and in turn disappears from all Indian radar due to its now <0.1m squared frontal RCS. Still accelerating towards the vikramaditya , FC-31 launches its BVRs and takes out the Ka-31 that was launched from the vikramaditya to detect the approaching sea-skimming ASMs, making sure the vikramaditya will have minimum time upon detection to intercept the ASMs. FC-31 now defends it self from the Migs and Tejas with its PL-10s and retreats back to Pakistan soil with its super cruise capability.


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## CHI RULES

Dear Sir,

The non stealthy Air superiority jets are also not useless not now and perhaps in future as they have effective EW suites and other countermeasures. If equipped with LRAM and flying above 60,000Ft shall be difficult to counter. Similarly SAMS don't have 100% kill probability especially capable Air superiority jets like SU30-35. In case of Indo/Pak scenario even Pak Mirages if fielded in numbers can do much damage though with heavy losses let alone the FC31.

One should expect that even for external loads the some sort of stealthy measures shall be taken in final phase.

Apart from J20, F22 Raptor or F35 no other project look to be a true stealthy fighter.The anti stealth measures are also on their way.


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## 592257001

xuv_AERO said:


> INS Vikramaditya sails with its battle group typically 2D 2F 2C 1-2 SSK spread across 1000s of square kilometers, on board radar on most of these ships can track fighter size targets 100s of kilometers,
> with Mig-29ks on patrol, a fighter size object will be spotted by front destroyers much beyond the range of any anti ship missiles, so the time destroyers spot with her MF Star radars Barak2 will be locked on to target and Mig 29s will be redirected to that area.
> And I am pretty sure Indian Navy will be flying F-35 or naval AMCA's when pakistanis will get thr hands on FC-31.



Really now?

"A 2011 article in the United States Naval War College Review credited the "YJ-91/YJ-12" with a range of 400 km and a 205 kg high explosive warhead, compared to the 130 km (81 mi; 70 nmi) range of a Harpoon anti-ship missile. Furthermore, an aircraft could launch the "YJ-91/YJ-12" while still 230 km beyond the range of SM-2 and Sparrow anti-air missiles, which have ranges of less than 170 km." 

"At the 9th Zhuhai Airshow held in November 2012, another series of gliding bomb developed from LS PGB was revealed to the public. Designated as CM-506 kg, it weighs 150 kg and has a maximum range of 130 km. Guidance is inertial navigation and satellite guidance, but other forms of guidance can be adopted, such as TV, IR, mm wave radar, and SAL"

I would like to know in which parallel universe could a Mig-29, or ANY ship-borne/air-borne radar able to detect a FC-31 even with some external payload @ 400km of range. 
The BEST ship-borne/air-borne radar in India's arsenal is the MF Star as you pointed out, with its MAXIMUM RANGE against high altitude fighter size aircraft (NOT STEALTH FIGHTER) to be 250km. Furthermore, the maximum range of your Barak is only 70km. FC-31 doesn't even require ASMs, even small-diamter guided bombs such as the CM-506 is enough to strike well outside of IN's ship-borne anti-air defenses. 

And, yes, I do believe in the however distant future, US might eventually authorize the sale of F-35s to Indian and/or the naval AMCA will evolve beyond fan arts. But engagements between fifth gen stealth fighters are meant to be largely WVR, as radars from neither planes will be able to detect the other from hundreds of KM away.

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## 592257001

xuv_AERO said:


> INS Vikramaditya sails with her CBG with air defense destroyers/frigates or multi role corvettes all these other ships will most likely be spread 100s of kilometers ahead of any potential attack from enemy so an integrated network of radars will be formed which will be covering 1000s of square kilometers of area including airborne chopper based or even AWACS in play there is no way any enemy air assets will be allowed to go near any of these big ships during war.
> Any aircraft will big Anti ship missiles will be detected much beyond any anti ship missile range and I am not sure how the AC will be tracked or locked by FC-31 more than 500 kms away, most likely a Kolkatta type destroyer will be able to pick a FC-31 armed with these anti ship missiles and locked on easily and a Kolkatta type destroyer can easily handle whatever anti ship missles chinese or pakistanis have with Barak-2 or may be upgraded versions that time




Hmm, I know I'm not supposed to feed the trolls, but I can't help but be amused by your blatant show of blind confidence. This is not a thread for pathetic ego-boosting Indians to talk about how LCA Tejas can win out a match against J-20 (which I'm sure is the case in your delusions of grandeur), but was rather a discussion about how stealth aircraft such as the FC-31 will still have an edge over conventional non-stealth jets such as the JF-17 in conducting strike missions with external payload. If there's no benefits at all in using stealth aircrafts in such missions, there would be no need for F-35 to be tested in such environments.
Lockheed Martin to test signature impact of F-35 external weapons carriage | IHS Jane's 360

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## Paksanity

592257001 said:


> Hmm, I know I'm not supposed to feed the trolls, but I can't help but be amused by your blatant show of blind confidence. This is not a thread for pathetic ego-boosting Indians to talk about how LCA Tejas can win out a match against J-20 (which I'm sure is the case in your delusions of grandeur), but was rather a discussion about how stealth aircraft such as the FC-31 will still have an edge over conventional non-stealth jets such as the JF-17 in conducting strike missions with external payload. If there's no benefits at all in using stealth aircrafts in such missions, there would be no need for F-35 to be tested in such environments.
> Lockheed Martin to test signature impact of F-35 external weapons carriage | IHS Jane's 360




Quick question. Does PLAAF or PLAN intend to induct Fc-31 along with J-20 or it is slated exclusively for exports?


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## 592257001

Paksanity said:


> Quick question. Does PLAAF or PLAN intend to induct Fc-31 along with J-20 or it is slated exclusively for exports?



To answer that, I would like to point out some necessary information regarding the official choice of PLAAF first: 

"The J-XX program was started in the late 1990s. A proposal from Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, designated Project 718, won the PLAAF endorsement following a 2008 competition against a Shenyang proposal that was larger than the J-20.[9]"

Because CAC's design proposal at the time was more aligned with PLAAF's requirement, J-20 has had the full backing of PLAAF in terms of funding and technical personals ever since. That's why J-20 has already began low rate initial production (LRIP) for service with PLAAF starting with serial # 2101 yet FC-31 does not yet have a "J" series branding (It has NEVER been called J-21/J-31 in any official publication, unlike the J-20) and is quite behind in terms of progress. 

That being said, PLAN has not finalized its decision on the stealth carrier-borne multi-role fighter yet, and tensions are high between CAC and SAC in the bid towards that competition. 

In the end, if PAF decides to purchase FC-31, many "ready-off-the-shelf" sub-systems from J-20 will be made available for fitting onto the FC-31 if the PAF so desires (avionics, weapons, EW suites, etc) , AVIC will make sure the petty disagreements between CAC and SAC does not come between an important deal between China and Pakistan.

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## 592257001

xuv_AERO said:


> well I was just correcting you when you were pointing rather boasting FC-31 armed with anti ship missiles can take a CBG on its own I never wrote about LCA or J - 20, FC-31 will lose its stealth advantage the day it carries external weapons specially couple of anti ship missiles, it will glow on radars of outer ring of CBG's destroyers much sooner than it even spots an aircraft career which will be somewhere in the middle of CBG protected by complement of ships and fighters and awacs.



My points stand, Indian's carrier, especially Indian's CVBG is MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger of a target in terms of RCS compared to a stealth aircraft+2 external ASMs. You would need to rework your elementary math skill if you sincerely believe a non-stealth aircraft+2 external ASMs will pose the same RCS.





Now, take the BEST AWAC that the IAF+IN has and think with a clear head, where would the FC-31+2 external ASMs fit in this diagram? How far away and just how many AWAC or the equivalent air-defense destroyers would be needed to from a tight enough radar perimeter so that a target with a RCS of FC-31 will not be able to intrude undetected @ the ASM launch distance of 300 km? IN doesn't even have enough AWAC/air-defense destroyers to perform that role in rotation, not even considering the number of fighters that would be needed to protect those assets. 

Given the known capability of Chinese maritime surveillance satellites, which is enough to provide real-time mid-course guidance for DF-21D/DF-26 ASBM, why wouldn't the FC-31 be able to know where the Indian's carrier is located?

I also pointed out earlier that externally carried ASMs are just ONE of MANY options FC-31 has in taking on a carrier, it could easily carry small-diameter guided bombs with terminal IR/mm wave radar in its internal weapons bay and launch ~150km away from the carrier, reducing its frontal RCS even more. 

If the PAF does purchase the FC-31, just the fact that IAF/IN will be aware of those capabilities that the FC-31 has is enough of a deterrence to STOP them from sending its carrier to strike @ Pakistan, thus maintaining peace.

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## 592257001

xuv_AERO said:


> again now your ego and arrogance is blinding you.
> 
> First correction Indian doesnt use A-50 India use Israeli Phalcon radars on its AWACS,
> 
> second thing every single destroyer/frigate of Indian navy is multi role which can play both Air Defense or act as sub hunters plus attack enemy ships and land.
> 
> FC-31 with two ASM missiles will be easily picked up by any destroyers in front of Career battle groups how hard is it to explain this to you???
> Its not stealthy when its carrying two big *** anti ship missiles and with its radar on to lock on to any ships it will give away its position in both cases it will be engaged by a destroyer in front or Indian naval fighters will be sent to engage it.
> 
> Here for your info. this I am quoting from internet:
> 
> "The navy's new carrier battle group centered on Vikramaditya consists of the modern Kolkata class destroyers, Shivalik and Talwar-class frigates, Kamorta-class anti-submarine warfare corvettes and new tankers.[9][10][11] INS Chakra II is expected to fill the sub-surface component."
> 
> all of these ships will be equipped with advance radars which can pick anything from a drone to super sonic cruise missiles. Fc-31 will be killed much before it can even penetrate the outer ring of CBG.
> 
> I am not sure in which area you are imagining this battle will take place but location of Indian peninsula provides Indian navy edge on all adversaries, any air force assets can be called for support in a moments notice.



Your ignorance continous to amuses me, I've already asked to to "think with a clear head", guess you are not capable of doing that. 

Heck, let's even pretend that FC-31's RCS with 2 external ASMs is the same RCS as the non-stealth MQ-9 on that graph there. Now, draw a circle with its center as the carrier, with smaller circles representing the A-50 being 220km away from the carrier, each with a effective detection range of 80km against something that's similar to the MQ-9 in RCS. Only then would they be able to detect the FC-31 AT THE MOMENT that it launches the ASMs. Tell me just how many of small circles are needed? Is your pathetic number of escort ships remotely close to enough to provide coverage?

I forgot how in your head, all radar systems designed for Indian is automatically quadrupled in its effectiveness compare to their counterparts used else where. Your "A-50I" is so powerful that nothing from that graph I attached applies to it

Lastly, why the f*ck would there ever be a "lock" performed by the FC-31 against the carrier? Inertial guidance+mid-course correction from data-link with Yaogan series maritime surveillance Satellite+terminal IR guidance is all that is required. You just displayed a military knowledge and intelligence of 12 year old with that comment of your yours

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## 592257001

xuv_AERO said:


> Actually you are pretty illogical here for the first few lines even pakistanis will not agree rest when I say sea hugging super sonic missile and a big *** plane carrying two ASM attach to its belly will deflect all the radar waves easily so all the stealth advantage is gone a 3 m square target will be painted beyond 200 kilometers away on MF star and on air borne radars. A single kolkatta type will employ anywhere between 30-40 barak 2 anti ship missile so even if 10 ASM missiles are thrown at kolkatta type its system will still not be saturated and it can take all of them at once now think 3 of these will be in a single CBG and with almost same capability 3 frigates and INS Vikramaditya is also equipped with same.
> There is no way fc-31 in any situation can take out IN CBG,



I love how your imagined number of escort ships keeps on increasing yet the number of FC-31 remains to be one, logic at its finest.

200km? You really loves throwing around random numbers huh? You just said "I am pretty sure it can find a FC-31 carrying two ASMs around 100 kms away." You can't back sh*t with these " I'm pretty sure" numbers, with a clear disregard of the RCS vs. radar detection range graph above.

Heck, 200km, 100km, or 80km, really doesn't change any thing LOL, because FC-31 would have launched its ASMs well outside of those distances Are you naturally ret*arded or are you trying to be funny? Kolkata can carry 40 barak 2? Last time I checked it's only got 32 VLS for baraks, where do you expect it to fit the extra 8? Inside your lungi? 

Also, just how well do you think the Barak-8, with a maximum speed of Mach2, designed only for supersonic and slower targets will fair against the CM-400AGK which reaches hypersonic (Mach 5+) speeds?

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## 帅的一匹

F31 2.0 type is a monster, we shall wait and see. Think Pakistan shall fund the project if money is available to accelerate its development. If pla navy wanna induct F31, then money will be no problem. I think J16 and F31 will be a powerful combination for PAF to deal with Indian CBG. j16 can take out those carriers and F31 provide air cover to counter those Mig29 and Navy Tejas. When f31 just carrys only air superiority configuration, Mig29 is doomed. How can a non stealthy fighter filed against a stealthy fighter in the sky? Especially when Indian navy Mig29 sucks in the EW system.

To be honest, India is no more potent to be China's real enemy, the tech gap is widening day by day. They even don't have proper ASM on their MKI.

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## Reichsmarschall

cirr said:


> It is hoped that Pakistan would take a serious interest in v2.0 of the plane which is scheduled for unveiling in 2015.


Sir its 2016 now did you have any info or pic of v 2.0???

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## ghauri05

The SC said:


> Size matters:
> With J-20
> View attachment 112204
> 
> With J-16
> View attachment 112205
> 
> 
> It is also about the same size as the F-35, although with twin engines, while the f-35 is sigle engined.
> Is it an advantage?
> View attachment 112206


As compared to other stealth fighters j31 is comparatively small, so won't we stuck in the same dilemma of a medium range aircraft..than as a long range and heavy aircraft...just like we don't have any heavy now...???


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## The Eagle

Hope to hear about some progress..... anyone plz? Heard about FC-31 V 2.0 but no pics shared so far yet....


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## Cool Mind

whoa....!!!


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> F31 2.0 type is a monster, we shall wait and see. Think Pakistan shall fund the project if money is available to accelerate its development. If pla navy wanna induct F31, then money will be no problem. I think J16 and F31 will be a powerful combination for PAF to deal with Indian CBG. j16 can take out those carriers and F31 provide air cover to counter those Mig29 and Navy Tejas. When f31 just carrys only air superiority configuration, Mig29 is doomed. How can a non stealthy fighter filed against a stealthy fighter in the sky? Especially when Indian navy Mig29 sucks in the EW system.
> 
> To be honest, India is no more potent to be China's real enemy, the tech gap is widening day by day. They even don't have proper ASM on their MKI.



The J-16, or any Flanker derivative, will not be exported.

And, to play the devil's advocate, how can you authoritatively make claims with regards to the MiG-29's EW system when you don't even have access to its performance data?

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## Viper0011.

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-16, or any Flanker derivative, will not be exported.



On the cards for Pakistan is the FC-20 (B or the C, most upgraded version), J-11B/D and later, FC-31 (version 2.0). The J-16 won't be exported as it will be a mimicked copy of the SU-35 (the ones coming to China from Russia soon) and the Russian would be pissed off if their tech got out, like what happened with the J-11. It took them a decade to get over it


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## Akasa

Viper0011. said:


> On the cards for Pakistan is the FC-20 (B or the C, most upgraded version), J-11B/D and later, FC-31 (version 2.0). The J-16 won't be exported as it will be a mimicked copy of the SU-35 (the ones coming to China from Russia soon) and the Russian would be pissed off if their tech got out, like what happened with the J-11. It took them a decade to get over it



1. As iterated before, Flanker variants will not be exported. The J-11B & J-11D fall into this category.

2. The J-16 has nothing to do with the Su-35. It marries a J-11BS airframe with modernized avionics, weapons, and ECM/EW equipment.

3. I would be rather skeptical as to assume that the Chinese would want to "copy" anything present in the Su-35. Evaluations and compare notes? Definitely. But to make the effort to reverse engineer subsystems that the Chinese will most likely find redundant? Dubious at best. The Russians probably have anticipated this and hence went ahead with the deal (ironically, it was the Russians who fervently pushed for the export of Su-35 to the Chinese).


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## 帅的一匹

To be honest, SU35 is not a must. It only reinforce PLAAF's power, not that strategical important compare with J20.

If Russia doesn't sell it, it's their loss.


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## Tank131

The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.

AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely

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## Viper0011.

Tank131 said:


> The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.
> 
> AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely



1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary. 

2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least. 

3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.

So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.
> 
> AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely



Hi,

Thank you very much for the post---sometimes it is so difficult to make the average pakistani understand to what is available and what is not.

The problem over here is that this disease of ignorance is not only prevalent in the civilians---but in the pakistan air force personal as well up to some extent.



Viper0011. said:


> 1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary.
> 
> 2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least.
> 
> 3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.
> 
> So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?



Hi,

Viper---the paf will have to understand that they might not get what they want in the first batch--but they will get it in the second batch.

They need to start with at least 18 of them----and they need to learn to fly and operate and maintain them---integration is not an easy process for a 4th gen and above aircraft.

The thing is that they think have SOME BREATHING ROOM now---but then if you look at the JF17 BLK1---they put that aircraft out there in a rush with an average fire control radar---but it gave their pilots enough time in the air to familiarize themselves and the maintenance crew how to work on it---even though the aircraft was only good for dropping dumb bombs and launching WVR missiles---.

A sqdrn strength of J11's would just totally change the psyche of the pakistani defence forces----it would be such a massive force multiplier.

The rejection of the J10C was due to the fact the the paf wanted to go full tilt with the BLK3 JF17---.

I think that for the BLK4---the air force needs two versions of this aircraft----.

1.Air superiority---keep it a similar size---give it the Gripen NG kind of structure and electronics upgrade---

2.Then another JF17 like the japanese F2---slighty larger than the F16---same style as in the NG type upgrade but with a bigger power plant---larger wing area and load carrying capacity around 6000-8000KG---so that the need for an F16 type aircraft disappears.

I think that it would be cheaper for the long run---paf would get a new aircraft with the state of the art electronics and don't have to worry about buying used F16---having them refurbished and then worrying about the sanctions---.

I personally think that for the second upgrade---there would be a much bigger market for that aircraft in the middle east and some african countries as well---even though that aircraft will beinfringing on the domain of the J10's---

Somehow I get a feeling that the Paf does not care much about the delta wing and canards in the front of an aircraft---. They would rather go for the JF17 type wing---.

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## Quwa

One way the PAF could get J-11s is by getting Russia to agree to a license fee. Granted, the Russians won't get as much as they could with selling Pakistan fighters directly, but if it isn't going to sell, then it might jump at the opportunity to get something out of China's J-11 production. Unlikely, though not the worst idea to be floated. @Tank131 @MastanKhan

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## Akasa

Viper0011. said:


> 1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary.



I would disagree. The Chinese have been developing and fielding airborne AESA radars for quite some time now, which would hamper any Chinese interest in the Irbis-E. There isn't really enough information about the Su-35's EW/ECM, datalinks, or FBW system to draw a decent judgment of its need within the PLAAF.

There were reports, from a week or so ago, that the Chinese are testing a thrust-vectored variant of the WS-10B engine, with approximately 14.5 tons of thrust, aboard a flying testbed, so even the AL-41 might be out the window.



Viper0011. said:


> 2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least.



Pakistan has never been offered the J-11B. The Chinese made a de-facto agreement with the Russians not to export any Flanker derivatives, albeit not strictly or legally enforced.



Viper0011. said:


> 3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.
> 
> So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?



So, what would be the technical difference between getting a J-11D as opposed to a Su-35 (Chinese Flankers won't be exported, but lets tickle the devil's tail for once)? In fact, I'd go as far as to project that the former will be significantly cheaper and will have the added benefit of AESA radars.



Tank131 said:


> The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.



There was a rumor that the 117S was exhibited at the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow but the Chinese weren't interested.



Tank131 said:


> AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely



You left out the J-10C, which the Chinese can (and is pushing to) export.

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## Tank131

SinoSoldier said:


> You left out the J-10C, which the Chinese can (and is pushing to) export



I should have been more clear, i meant heavy strike fighter. The J-10 would not fit that mold unfortunately and it appears the PAF has already ruled against going for it. It has less range and payload than the F-16 and not significantly better than JF-17 to warrant adding it. It would be redundant in the PAF fleet. The JF-17 block 3 should begim to somewhat approach its capabilities in terms of systems (albeit not physical performance). The Flanker and JH-7B (modified with something like J-16 electronics) would be more along the lines of PAF needs (in addition to the FC-31

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## Akasa

Tank131 said:


> I should have been more clear, i meant heavy strike fighter. The J-10 would not fit that mold unfortunately and it appears the PAF has already ruled against going for it. It has less range and payload than the F-16 and not significantly better than JF-17 to warrant adding it. It would be redundant in the PAF fleet. The JF-17 block 3 should begim to somewhat approach its capabilities in terms of systems (albeit not physical performance). The Flanker and JH-7B (modified with something like J-16 electronics) would be more along the lines of PAF needs (in addition to the FC-31



That would make sense, even though the Su-35 wouldn't fit into that category either.

Could elaborate on why would the J-10 has less range/payload than a F-16 and wouldn't be "better" than a JF-17?


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## Tank131

The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.


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## Akasa

Tank131 said:


> The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.



Do you have sources to back that up? I don't think the J-10's raw specifications were ever released.


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## Kompromat

PAF won't go for J-10s. To quote a highly influential air warfare expert and policy maker in Pakistan, its time has came and gone. PAF wants to maintain a healthy fleet of up to 400 fighter jets and a sizable support and special mission aircrafts. We will acquire more F-16s to build strong fleet for up to 100 vipers plus 250 JF-17 thunders which leaves 50 units to meet the goal and my good guess is that its going to be FC-31 Stealth platform which will replace our F-7PG squadrons. 



Tank131 said:


> The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.

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## Daniel808




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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


>




Sadly only a dumb photoshop-fake ...

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## Daniel808

*Nice Shenyang J-31 V 2.0 5th Gen CGI*





















Credit to @cnleio

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## Beast

Daniel808 said:


> *Nice Shenyang J-31 V 2.0 5th Gen CGI*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit to @cnleio



I think this CG depict the real J-31 V2. Real life J-31 V2 will be exactly the same as this computer birdie.

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## UniverseWatcher



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## C130

Daniel808 said:


> *Nice Shenyang J-31 V 2.0 5th Gen CGI*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Credit to @cnleio




pretty nice for CGI


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## 帅的一匹

C130 said:


> pretty nice for CGI


Why you laugh? Anything funny?

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## Akasa

New rumors indicate that the redesigned prototype of the FC-31 has performed taxi tests.

Images to follow in the coming days or weeks.

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## The Eagle

SinoSoldier said:


> New rumors indicate that the redesigned prototype of the FC-31 has performed taxi tests.
> 
> Images to follow in the coming days or weeks.



Good news, hope to see those pics soon.

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## Tank131

Any idea about what exactly was changed?


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## aftab_s81

When are we going to see 2nd prototype?


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## aliaselin

If CAC develops a 5th generation fighter with tailless configuration, _i.e_., to some extent, it would be similar to LCA, will Pakistan accept it?


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## aftab_s81

aliaselin said:


> If CAC develops a 5th generation fighter with tailless configuration, _i.e_., to some extent, it would be similar to LCA, will Pakistan accept it?


I think its better if they could finish the project already started i.e, J-31. In that way they can focus their resources. A third 5th gen project? Not a good idea.

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## RAMPAGE

Tank131 said:


> Any idea about what exactly was changed?


Vertical and horizontal stabilizers, Wings, Intakes and engine nozzles.



SinoSoldier said:


> New rumors indicate that the redesigned prototype of the FC-31 has performed taxi tests.
> 
> Images to follow in the coming days or weeks.


So no supercruise for FC-31?  This ain't fair!


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## aliaselin

aftab_s81 said:


> I think its better if they could finish the project already started i.e, J-31. In that way they can focus their resources. A third 5th gen project? Not a good idea.


FC31 is not a project of CAC and they are free now.


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## Zain Malik

When it entering to mass production and how much chances are visible that PAF will procure this...???


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## aftab_s81

Any pictures of second prototype?


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## Cpt.usman

Zain Malik said:


> When it entering to mass production and how much chances are visible that PAF will procure this...???



Currently there is not much info about mass production but chances of paf r 50-50... they may buy 50


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## sohail.ishaque

aliaselin said:


> If CAC develops a 5th generation fighter with tailless configuration, _i.e_., to some extent, it would be similar to LCA, will Pakistan accept it?



if a jet becomes similar to LCA, will it become Indian ??? No.. 
will it become non-chines ?? No

We r buying jets from our friend China not on the basis of Shape but performance and friendship. and if a jet don't become Indian just becoz of loosing its tail, i think Pak will have no issues.. 

IF it is good and Pak can afford it, Tail or without tail, won't matter...


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## aliaselin

sohail.ishaque said:


> if a jet becomes similar to LCA, will it become Indian ??? No..
> will it become non-chines ?? No
> 
> We r buying jets from our friend China not on the basis of Shape but performance and friendship. and if a jet don't become Indian just becoz of loosing its tail, i think Pak will have no issues..
> 
> IF it is good and Pak can afford it, Tail or without tail, won't matter...


Good points. As a matter of fact, I'm tired of comparing LCA anc JF17 here

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## Windjammer

Albeit, the article is about the Russian Stealth fighter but interestingly the author points out the PAF connection with the J-31.

*''The PAK FA plays a major role in India’s competition with China and Pakistan, its two major regional rivals. China has pushed the J-20 stealth fighter project to a stage competitive with the PAK FA, although we know less of the former’s capabilities than of the latter.

For its part, we can expect that Pakistan will likely acquire J-31 stealth fighters from China, whether off the shelf or as part of some kind of joint production scheme.''

https://warisboring.com/so-is-russias-stealth-fighter-any-good-or-not-57a8ed255135#.u0wy4klc4*

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the article is about the Russian Stealth fighter but interestingly the author points out the PAF connection with the J-31.
> 
> *''The PAK FA plays a major role in India’s competition with China and Pakistan, its two major regional rivals. China has pushed the J-20 stealth fighter project to a stage competitive with the PAK FA, although we know less of the former’s capabilities than of the latter.
> 
> For its part, we can expect that Pakistan will likely acquire J-31 stealth fighters from China, whether off the shelf or as part of some kind of joint production scheme.''
> 
> https://warisboring.com/so-is-russias-stealth-fighter-any-good-or-not-57a8ed255135#.u0wy4klc4*



Thanks for the article, kind sir. 

Right in front of everyone's view...Sino-pak projects have been developing fast.

JF2.0 with angular/stealth shaping is more or less a decade away. If one is not mistaken a MoU was signed way back.

The Chinese CGIs have a nasty habit of becoming the real things..so no one should be surprised to see JF2.0- -- larger, with reduced RCS through angular design incorporating goodies from J10C and J31.

One is certain to see evolution of J31 into PAFs first medium stealth fighter. In numbers, with local production... JF17 has been truly a pathfinder for your country's aviation industry.

Keep this wise strategy of tight lipped execution. It has served your country very well.

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## Mohammad ahsen

pakistanipower said:


> J-31 is far looking better than J-20 in the term of rear RCS, far far better than J20



no i will argue J20 is more superior than j31 
because china also said J20 not for sale just like america said F22 not for sale


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## Ultima Thule

Mohammad ahsen said:


> no i will argue J20 is more superior than j31
> because china also said J20 not for sale just like america said F22 not for sale


do some reasrch than talk


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

PAF's 5th generation fighter, let us call it JF3.0, will be inherting a lot of technology from J20 and J31.
So, even without acquiring J20 as platform, you will have the required capabilities in your particutlar environment.

Without PLAAF acquiring J31 in massive numbers, the platform will too expensive for PAF. The only pragmatic choice would be to work with SAC and CAC and develop JF3.0 and JF2.0 respectively.

The end result will amaze your airforce just like JF1.0 Thunder has done. But a JF3.0 is more than a decade away at least. First a semi stealth fighter to serve your medium platform needs is to materialise.

All the best.

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## Ultima Thule

Sinopakfriend said:


> Thanks for the article, kind sir.
> 
> Right in front of everyone's view...Sino-pak projects have been developing fast.
> 
> JF2.0 with angular/stealth shaping is more or less a decade away. If one is not mistaken a MoU was signed way back.
> 
> The Chinese CGIs have a nasty habit of becoming the real things..so no one should be surprised to see JF2.0- -- larger, with reduced RCS through angular design incorporating goodies from J10C and J31.
> 
> One is certain to see evolution of J31 into PAFs first medium stealth fighter. In numbers, with local production... JF17 has been truly a pathfinder for your country's aviation industry.
> 
> Keep this wise strategy of tight lipped execution. It has served your country very well.


their is no stealth or semi stealth versions of JF-17 sir



Sinopakfriend said:


> PAF's 5th generation fighter, let us call it JF3.0, will be inherting a lot of technology from J20 and J31.
> So, even without acquiring J20 as platform, you will have the required capabilities in your particutlar environment.
> 
> Without PLAAF acquiring J31 in massive numbers, the platform will too expensive for PAF. The only pragmatic choice would be to work with SAC and CAC and develop JF3.0 and JF2.0 respectively.
> 
> The end result will amaze your airforce just like JF1.0 Thunder has done. But a JF3.0 is more than a decade away at least. First a semi stealth fighter to serve your medium platform needs is to materialise.
> 
> All the best.


main stealth fighter for PAF will be J-31 not your virtual JF2.0, JF3.0


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

pakistanipower said:


> their is no stealth or semi stealth versions of JF-17 sir



Of course there is not for obvious reasons. JF2.0 is not thunder. It is logical follow up towards a medium multirole platform. Since PAF will not be acquiring any J10s... they will need a home built aircraft in this category. It is only called JF2.0 for distinction to Thunder for want of a better word.



pakistanipower said:


> their is no stealth or semi stealth versions of JF-17 sir
> 
> 
> main stealth fighter for PAF will be J-31 not your virtual JF2.0, JF3.0



You are right from your perspective, kind sir, as in virtual JF2.0 and JF3.0.


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## Ultima Thule

Sinopakfriend said:


> Of course there is not for obvious reasons. JF2.0 is not thunder. It is logical follow up towards a medium multirole platform. Since PAF will not be acquiring any J10s... they will need a home built aircraft in this category. It is only called JF2.0 for distinction to Thunder for want of a better word.
> 
> 
> 
> You are right from your perspective, kind sir, as in virtual JF2.0 and JF3.0.


fighter development is no that easy you thought, if Pakistan starts a development Medium multi-role platform, it takes 10 to 15 years to complete the project,at this the we will start inducting J-31 so its useless to develop a 4.5 gen

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

pakistanipower said:


> fighter development is no that easy you thought, if Pakistan starts a development Medium multi-role platform, it takes 10 to 15 years to complete the project,at this the we will start inducting J-31 so its useless to develop a 4.5 gen



Kind sir, thank you for the reply. I understand your point of much better now.

Thanks!

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## araz

Sinopakfriend said:


> PAF's 5th generation fighter, let us call it JF3.0, will be inherting a lot of technology from J20 and J31.
> So, even without acquiring J20 as platform, you will have the required capabilities in your particutlar environment.
> 
> Without PLAAF acquiring J31 in massive numbers, the platform will too expensive for PAF. The only pragmatic choice would be to work with SAC and CAC and develop JF3.0 and JF2.0 respectively.
> 
> The end result will amaze your airforce just like JF1.0 Thunder has done. But a JF3.0 is more than a decade away at least. First a semi stealth fighter to serve your medium platform needs is to materialise.
> 
> All the best.


Again this is pure conjecture. I agree some of the technology from the 5th generation fighters will trickle down in to JFT eventually. The question is when? If it too good to be true it generally is not true at all. JFT in its current iteration is a nonstealthy design. Just adding a few tweeks here and there will not turn it into one. Our needs are many and resources limitedand a new project especially a stealthy design will set us back billions of dollars which we dont have. I think we need to let a simple design remain a simple design. Too much tweeking will break it and the end result will be disasterous and very very expensive. If you look at the Chinese design philosophy and indeed what has been done with JAS39 and F16s it will give you an idea about what is possible without breaking the bank or the plane. You will also realize that a lot can be done with a design without meddling around much and chopping and changing that which works.

So what is possible is:
more software upgrades,
better man machine interface,
incorporation of IRST and AESA.
additional hardpoints ,
mounted POD(most likely on the chin),
CFT,
DERs,
Engine with more thrust(RD93MA or WS13/15. which ever is better)
.
What is less likely to happen is:
moving the wheels towards the wings utilizing the body for additional hardpoints
wing enlargement.
General enlargement of the air frame.
a bigger engine
EU sourced engine.

What in my humble opinion is not going to happen at all.
Stealthy design
A

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## Falcon26

If the PAF can take the J-31 and mate it with European/Turkish sensors, electronics, avionics, radars and advanced Russian engines, then Pakistan can have a reasonable and cost effective platform to go against the rapid modernization of India. If not, then the TFX is a must for the PAF.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

araz said:


> Again this is pure conjecture. I agree some of the technology from the 5th generation fighters will trickle down in to JFT eventually. The question is when? If it too good to be true it generally is not true at all. JFT in its current iteration is a nonstealthy design. Just adding a few tweeks here and there will not turn it into one. Our needs are many and resources limitedand a new project especially a stealthy design will set us back billions of dollars which we dont have. I think we need to let a simple design remain a simple design. Too much tweeking will break it and the end result will be disasterous and very very expensive. If you look at the Chinese design philosophy and indeed what has been done with JAS39 and F16s it will give you an idea about what is possible without breaking the bank or the plane. You will also realize that a lot can be done with a design without meddling around much and chopping and changing that which works.
> So what is possible is:
> more software upgrades,
> better man machine interface,
> incorporation of IRST and AESA.
> additional hardpoints ,
> mounted POD(most likely on the chin),
> CFT,
> DERs,
> Dorsal fin mounted software on the dual seater.
> Engine with more thrust(RD93MA or WS13/15. which ever is better)
> . What is less likely to happen is:
> moving the wheels towards the wings utilizing the body for additional hardpoints
> wing enlargement.
> General enlargement of the air frame.
> a bigger engine
> EU sourced engine.
> What in my humble opinion is not going to happen at all.
> Stealthy design
> A



Dear Araz, many thanks for your kind feedback. Highly valued! 

You are absolutely correct that Thunder will remain in the present airframe with only upgrades to enhance performance. Totally agree with your analysis there.

However, how are you going to replace your medium level platform? This needs to happen in due time.
What is your take on that?

Regarding stealth fighter well it is going to be Chinese with local assembly/production. Subsystems are a different story.

I guess my calling JF2.0 or JF3.0 was perhaps confusing. I, of course, was not referring to Thunder but future joint fighters for medium and stealth configuration.

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## Mugwop

I'd say lets go for J-10B it's single engine and cheaper to operate plus we won't have to wait til 2020 to get it.



Mohammad ahsen said:


> no i will argue J20 is more superior than j31
> because china also said J20 not for sale just like america said F22 not for sale


J20 is way to big for PAF, J-31 is medium sized and well suited for PAF.


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## Taygibay

araz said:


> Dorsal fin mounted software on the dual seater.



Sorry Araz mate but what?
There must be a mistake in your sentence; that means nothing!
Software is immaterial and doesn't require a specific location.

Have a good day, Tay.

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## araz

Taygibay said:


> Sorry Araz mate but what?
> There must be a mistake in your sentence; that means nothing!
> Software is immaterial and doesn't require a specific location.
> 
> Have a good day, Tay.


Hi Tay
Its 33degrees C in london and you can understand the brain of an old man getting befuddled. I dont even have the strength to correct my mistake. HaHaa.
Have a good day.
A

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## Blue Marlin

araz said:


> Hi Tay
> Its 33degrees C in london and you can understand the brain of an old man getting befuddled. I dont even have the strength to correct my mistake. HaHaa.
> Have a good day.
> A


wow only 1 degree off from where im from. i went out in a jacket in the morning im drowing in my own sweat


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## Ultima Thule

Sinopakfriend said:


> I guess my calling JF2.0 or JF3.0 was perhaps confusing. I, of course, was not referring to Thunder but future joint fighters for medium and stealth configuration.


if we will have J-31, why we need to develop JF-XXX, and as for medium weight we have F-16 till 2030

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## Army research

Let's just get stealth fighter bomber in limited number with pgm for preemptive strike on iaf that's it job done


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## MastanKhan

pakistanipower said:


> fighter development is no that easy you thought, if Pakistan starts a development Medium multi-role platform, it takes 10 to 15 years to complete the project,at this the we will start inducting J-31 so its useless to develop a 4.5 gen



Sir,

If you had the ability to understand the gentleman's posts----you would not have commented as you did---.

Stop talking SMART and start listening smart.

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## The SC

JF-17 in due time will get as stealthy as possible, maybe through FBL, active cancellation, AESA/IRST up till 4+(+) generation, While J-31 will be the main Pakistani Stealth fighter and maybe as an exception to the rule a few J-20s for air superiority..

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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> JF-17 in due time will get as stealthy as possible, maybe through FBL, active cancellation, AESA/IRST up till 4+(+) generation, While J-31 will be the main Pakistani Stealth fighter and maybe as an exception to the rule a few J-20s for air superiority..


Not airframe wise but in RADAR and avionics wise

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## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> Not airframe wise but in RADAR and avionics wise


Yes, and I did not mention airframe either.. Maybe after the the JF-17 block 3 there might be a new larger design..


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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> Yes, and I did not mention airframe either.. Maybe after the the JF-17 block 3 there might be a new larger design..


than it wil be no more JF-17 but JF-XXXX


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## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> than it wil be no more JF-17 but JF-XXXX


Yes something like that .. a medium fighter with the same or better tech than JF-17 and more hard-points, more loitering time, bigger AESA radar, bigger and more powerful engine and some more enhancements in maneuverability..I hope for an airframe of about 60% composite materials so the thrust to weight ratio will be optimized too..


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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> Yes something like that .. a medium fighter with the same or better tech than JF-17 and more hard-points, more loitering time, bigger AESA radar, bigger and more powerful engine and some more enhancements in maneuverability..I hope for an airframe of about 60% composite materials so the thrust to weight ratio will be optimized too..


if we start this project now than it will take at least 10 to 15 years to complete it and than we will start inducting J-31 and i think can buy medium weight fighter which is more cost effective than to develop from the scratch because we have no $$$


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## Taygibay

The SC said:


> JF-17 in due time will get as stealthy as possible, maybe through FBL, active cancellation, AESA/IRST up till 4+(+) generation,





The SC said:


> Yes, and I did not mention airframe either.. Maybe after the the JF-17 block 3 there might be a new larger design..



Actually, you did mate! That's why Pakistanipower answered you.
Stealth will require composites in main wet areas at minima and the Thunder has none.
FBL is also a complete re-work of the main frame/cell for you'll have to replace most actuators.

JF-17 has limited options due to design and becoming stealthy is one.
Go for J-31 or another entirely new design if physical stealth is your thing.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## aliyusuf

Taygibay said:


> Stealth will require composites in main wet areas at minima and the Thunder has none.



Just curious, and also for my own knowledge, it has been my understanding that composites contribute to stronger air frame and lighter weight (albeit being costlier to install and maintain).

It has no direct relation to stealth. That is the domain of the RAM = Radar Absorbent Materials. RAM could be special purpose composites, but they are not obviously implied when one mentions just composites.

Your clarification into this would be realty appreciated, thanks.


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## Taygibay

aliyusuf said:


> That is the domain of the RAM = Radar Absorbent Materials. RAM could be special purpose composites, but they are not obviously implied when one mentions just composites.



Your first paragraph is essentially correct but few composites show up as much
as metal alloys on normal AC radars so that it does add some stealth de facto.

See it this way : all composites are not RAM but all RAMs are composites.
The single case in which composites heighten a radar's reflecting waves is
if you keep a big metallic structure under a composite skin that lets Rwaves in.

In general, composites are radar transparent to some degree if not absorbent.
So as you correctly guessed, one can mess up stealth with them but that should
be seen as a blunder and rare.

Correctly used, composites should help in stealth.

Have a great day, Tay.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> If you had the ability to understand the gentleman's posts----you would not have commented as you did---.
> 
> Stop talking SMART and start listening smart.



MK Ultra! Kind... how one gets to understand the vibe and mind of good people...?

Not through MSM but through alt media and of course the goldmine of comments sections...

The writing is on the wall:

After JF17, cometh out of blue a replacement JV for the medium multirole fighter to be built by PAC and thence forth cometh a medium stealth fighter to be built by PAC (might be an exisitng frame or adoptation of a successful design). 

Tech and sub systems from everyone, of course.

Pragmatic and practical.

Eveyone talks about lack of funds and then forgets to calcuate the best possible option in every possible sense and would like to pay them Russians billions for two sqd of SU35. 

Two billions spent at home and freedom forever...and all those local fighters = which side is the math?

The global geopolitical landscape is shifting... fast, time for your good country to make things at home and build comprehensive national strength. Of course jobs, jobs, jobs...

Obviously one has the deepest respect and best wishes for your good country and her people.

All the best. And kindly sell those beautiful JF17s left, right and centre.


----------



## CHI RULES

Mohammad ahsen said:


> no i will argue J20 is more superior than j31
> because china also said J20 not for sale just like america said F22 not for sale


May be J31 is smaller brother of J20 yet quite useful as per Pak requirements. Further Pak FA clearly though have less RCS yet it will not be stealthy like F35.


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## MastanKhan

Sinopakfriend said:


> MK Ultra! Kind... how one gets to understand the vibe and mind of good people...?
> 
> Not through MSM but through alt media and of course the goldmine of comments sections...
> 
> The writing is on the wall:
> 
> After JF17, cometh out of blue a replacement JV for the medium multirole fighter to be built by PAC and thence forth cometh a medium stealth fighter to be built by PAC (might be an exisitng frame or adoptation of a successful design).
> 
> Tech and sub systems from everyone, of course.
> 
> Pragmatic and practical.
> 
> Eveyone talks about lack of funds and then forgets to calcuate the best possible option in every possible sense and would like to pay them Russians billions for two sqd of SU35.
> 
> Two billions spent at home and freedom forever...and all those local fighters = which side is the math?
> 
> The global geopolitical landscape is shifting... fast, time for your good country to make things at home and build comprehensive national strength. Of course jobs, jobs, jobs...
> 
> Obviously one has the deepest respect and best wishes for your good country and her people.
> 
> All the best. And kindly sell those beautiful JF17s left, right and centre.



Hi,

The problem with the paf is with its lackadaisical attitude towards procurement in a timely manner.

And then a small trickle of problems becomes a raging stream when taking into account 25 + years of indecisions.

The problem with the paf is that it is an incomplete air force---since they wiped out the bombers---it has become a fighter interceptor aircraft kind of air force---where the glory lies in talking about making 9G turns and WVR dog fights.

That is where a heavy strike aircraft has gotten lost deep in the translation. 

The enemy has covered all the fronts thru their LR SAMs---the only place they have no control is over the ocean / arabian seas---the bases like pasni / gwadar are beyond the reach of their LR SAMS---thus allowing paf's heavy deep strike aircraft to operate freely and divert the enemy's resources and THIN them out---.

Our problem is that we do not have a civilian " enforcer " or a paf general with out of the box kind of thinking---.

Tactically---money spent on the SU 35 would not be the best deal---unless it is the EFT---but then again you have to look at things this way---at what juncture the deployable chinese EW suite technology is today in comparison to what it will be in 3-5 years---from Turkey and from Italy as well.

And if it is the italian or Turkish EW suite---what guarantees be put in place that a French fiasco does not happen.

The best overall solution is a JF17 version 2.0---at least 20% larger with a load carrying capability of 7000---8000 KG---and that is before the paf gets its Gen 5 aircraft.



Mohammad ahsen said:


> no i will argue J20 is more superior than j31
> because china also said J20 not for sale just like america said F22 not for sale



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. An fighter / bomber / strike aircraft design and size has its utility and function. It is not a matter of it being superior to another---but rather a matter of TEAM---which means Together Everyone Achieves More---.

You cannot use a 155mm canon shell where you need a small caliber mortar round---now can you---.

And neither can you use a 5.56 round when you need a .50 caliber strike---but just because the .50 caliber overshadows all the infantry rounds---does it mean everything else is inferior---.

It does not work that way---every aircraft type has its utility and function---that is why aircraft are built in different shapes and sizes and carry different loads.

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## ebrahym

Mugwop said:


> J-31 is medium sized and well suited for PAF.


cant we get j-31 airframe and then install avionics we want


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The problem with the paf is with its lackadaisical attitude towards procurement in a timely manner.
> 
> And then a small trickle of problems becomes a raging stream when taking into account 25 + years of indecisions.
> 
> The problem with the paf is that it is an incomplete air force---since they wiped out the bombers---it has become a fighter interceptor aircraft kind of air force---where the glory lies in talking about making 9G turns and WVR dog fights.
> 
> That is where a heavy strike aircraft has gotten lost deep in the translation.
> 
> The enemy has covered all the fronts thru their LR SAMs---the only place they have no control is over the ocean / arabian seas---the bases like pasni / gwadar are beyond the reach of their LR SAMS---thus allowing paf's heavy deep strike aircraft to operate freely and divert the enemy's resources and THIN them out---.
> 
> Our problem is that we do not have a civilian " enforcer " or a paf general with out of the box kind of thinking---.
> 
> Tactically---money spent on the SU 35 would not be the best deal---unless it is the EFT---but then again you have to look at things this way---at what juncture the deployable chinese EW suite technology is today in comparison to what it will be in 3-5 years---from Turkey and from Italy as well.
> 
> And if it is the italian or Turkish EW suite---what guarantees be put in place that a French fiasco does not happen.
> 
> The best overall solution is a JF17 version 2.0---at least 20% larger with a load carrying capability of 7000---8000 KG---and that is before the paf gets its Gen 5 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum---. An fighter / bomber / strike aircraft design and size has its utility and function. It is not a matter of it being superior to another---but rather a matter of TEAM---which means Together Everyone Achieves More---.
> 
> You cannot use a 155mm canon shell where you need a small caliber mortar round---now can you---.
> 
> And neither can you use a 5.56 round when you need a .50 caliber strike---but just because the .50 caliber overshadows all the infantry rounds---does it mean everything else is inferior---.
> 
> It does not work that way---every aircraft type has its utility and function---that is why aircraft are built in different shapes and sizes and carry different loads.



Kind sir, the need for heavies is a stand alone one. The only practical solution is to go for JHA/B. 

That bird can carry loads..more economic and readily available. With EW suit, which ever available, is still miles ahead in capability than having none. You can have it numbers as well. What more is needed? F35 or F22 is never coming your way. Ever. 

Your good country is a central asian and ME power. Your sea borders are dangerously exposed.

The increase in size of JF-17, to say making it JF18, will solve so many of your airforce's woes and redeem so many of the past issues, that it will dazzle you much more than JF17 today. 

The funny thing is that you will be able to sell some as well.

Infrastructure and manpower is there. Money is no issue. All is needed is creativity and some daredevil spirit.

Why don't you write a white paper with some good peple like Oscar, Qwua and Billal Khan and have it on the desk of someone who might listen. These gents seem to know things inside out.

You have been advocating these things for ages... why not then give it shot?

You have a great thing going here for your aviation industry, almost on a glide path, build upon it and never look back. China is not holding you back.

Guess preaching to the converted here. Do forgive these silly repititions...of an aging person.


----------



## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> cant we get j-31 airframe and then install avionics we want


not possible, west can't allow you to use their top avionics in J-31


----------



## MastanKhan

Sinopakfriend said:


> Kind sir, the need for heavies is a stand alone one. The only practical solution is to go for JHA/B.
> 
> That bird can carry loads..more economic and readily available. With EW suit, which ever available, is still miles ahead in capability than having none. You can have it numbers as well. What more is needed? F35 or F22 is never coming your way. Ever.
> 
> Your good country is a central asian and ME power. Your sea borders are dangerously exposed.
> 
> The increase in size of JF-17, to say making it JF18, will solve so many of your airforce's woes and redeem so many of the past issues, that it will dazzle you much more than JF17 today.
> 
> The funny thing is that you will be able to sell some as well.
> 
> Infrastructure and manpower is there. Money is no issue. All is needed is creativity and some daredevil spirit.
> 
> Why don't you write a white paper with some good peple like Oscar, Qwua and Billal Khan and have it on the desk of someone who might listen. These gents seem to know things inside out.
> 
> You have been advocating these things for ages... why not then give it shot?
> 
> You have a great thing going here for your aviation industry, almost on a glide path, build upon it and never look back. China is not holding you back.
> 
> Guess preaching to the converted here. Do forgive these silly repititions...of an aging person.



Hi,

You know what---when you talk to the Paf about JH7B---they say it does not have enough power---I mean to say " power to do what "---.

With your experience---and wisdom---you might have a solution for it---tell me how to switch those riding thoroughbreds to riding mules---.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You know what---when you talk to the Paf about JH7B---they say it does not have enough power---I mean to say " power to do what "---.
> 
> With your experience---and wisdom---you might have a solution for it---tell me how to switch those riding thoroughbreds to riding mules---.




*Unnecessarily long and rather boring answer! *



When one was busy raising kids...one learnt many things. 

The kids can drive you mad, but are great, lovely teachers.

When they wanted to wait/or not do things with excuses if only I have that that then can I do this this...

Waiting of course is never a solution. So one tried to reapeat and practice... let us do with what we have..let us not wait. lets create something out of nothing. 

Repeating, repeacting...with patience of gods...finally taken up by them. All happy in the end and learnt the value of making do with what one has.

PAF is a bit of spoilt child. Without a father figure... well. But they are also professional. Once they get the taste of freedom through local production... and see their prestige rise internationally. Things will change. 

Transformation of a person or organisation always is rooted in the mind. 

When attitude changes the Tao/Universe or Divine, whatever is your pick, will conspire to align with that thought process.

Successful sales is pure attitude/state of mind.

Chin up, shoulders straight and back up right...had to repeact to kids a million times. 

And of course, never feeling sorry for one self. 

Saddness allowed. 

Grief allowed. 

But self pitty, oh, big NO NO. Had to lead by example though...tough thing really.

Does it make sense to you, kind sir. I know it is jigbrish..have no right to say what your good countrymen should or should not do. Hence the abastract answer.

China was making those mig21s for how long? They were poorer than you then. But they made those jets and kept their skies safe. Many attempts and many failures..but kept going. And now everything has to come from China. 

You have your PAC going...patience, patience. 

PAF will change the doctorine sooner than later. 

The entire force structure of your good country is evolving. When they move towards an integrated defence forces philosophy... many things are bound to happen. 

You are an island nation. In seas lies your wealth and security.

You, Mr. MK, can of course write a book and publish online. Time it takes, but offers a great statisfaction! 

Even a free PDF will do wonders. 

Be light hearted... there are many things are at play here...just forget PAF or your country for a moment...
Take a step back... look at the world. What do you see..

Personally, peace and development are the wisest choices... hence whatever creates jobs has to the strategic goal of a state that wishes to be.....

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## ebrahym

pakistanipower said:


> not possible, west can't allow you to use their top avionics in J-31


we can buy their avionics separately for jf-17 and replicate them on j-31 air frame ......


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> we can buy their avionics separately for jf-17 and replicate them on j-31 air frame ......


kid how old are you do do some research and than talk, you are saying that we use JF-17 avionics in J-31, go kid this place is not for yours go play your toys


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## ebrahym

pakistanipower said:


> kid how old are you do do some research and than talk, you are saying that we use JF-17 avionics in J-31, go kid this place is not for yours go play your toys


sir yes sir ................................. sorry to interrupt your busy schedule


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> sir yes sir ................................. sorry to interrupt your busy schedule


kid your logic is totally wrong


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## ebrahym

pakistanipower said:


> kid your logic is totally wrong


roger that captain ......


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## The Eagle

pakistanipower said:


> kid your logic is totally wrong





a_b said:


> roger that captain ......



Both of you need to stop such behavior for the sake of readers and forum. 

@a_b if you have something to add to the topic or any idea/information share here but try to make it in detail and a little brief could be appreciated.

@pakistanipower if you have anything to answer with, come in detail and try to share the info in respect of knowledge to share and gain rather than start others to call kid, this & that like personal attacks. Hopefully you may avoid such attitude while responding to anyone.

Kindly avoid such type of chit chat for everyone's sake here. Thanks you and no offense intended.

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## ebrahym

The Eagle said:


> if you have something to add to the topic or any idea/information share here but try to make it in detail and a little brief could be appreciated


all i wanted to say was that if we can get j-31 airframe intact and add whatever avionics we want ........ on which the other guy @pakistanipower said that it was not possible to add western avionics to a chinese airframe ......... end of story no offense given and none taken


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> we can buy their avionics separately for jf-17 and replicate them on j-31 air frame ......


how can we use 4 generation avionics in 5 generation fighter jet? care to explain


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## ebrahym

pakistanipower said:


> how can we use 4 generation avionics in 5 generation fighter jet? care to explain


i may have mislead you i just wanted to say the avionics "we want" .......... and when you said that west will not let it use on a chinese design then i said perhaps we can use jf-17 to get them but instead replicate them on j-31 but you were right it is just a stupid fanboy idea ......... its not worth discussion so lets just move on


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## gambit

a_b said:


> ...if we can get j-31 airframe intact and add whatever avionics we want...


You cannot do that. Or at best, you options will be severely limited.

The F-117 used the F-16's flight controls avionics. Not from the F-15. But from the F-16. Even so, that did not mean we can swap the flight controls computer (FLCC) between the two platforms. What we did was took the FLCS from the F-16 and modified it to compensate for the F-117's flying idiosyncrasies, and every airframe have its quirks. The F-117 was no different. The F-16's FLCS was flexible enough to be modded. General Dynamics did not planned it that way. They just happened to design the entire package, airframe + avionics, in a combination that became unexpectedly versatile.

What you asked for, there are many unknowns. To start, you must have baseline data of the J-31's aerodynamics, at least from wind tunnel testing. Then you must have data from as wide a variety of FLCS as possible on the ranges of each system, such as AOA limits, surface deflection degrees and rates, and the list is long.

Go back to the F-16's FLCS for a moment. The F-16 have mechanical speedbrakes, but the F-117 does not. Unmodified, if the computer did not 'see' a pair of speedbrakes, it would assume that there is something wrong with the entire aircraft and default to certain basic flight control algorithms. We had to disable that part of the FLCC in order to perform in the F-117. The F-16 have leading edge (LE) flaps, the F-117 does not. The differences between the two airframes are long, but the fact that the F-16's FLCS was used is testament to the genius from General Dynamics.

While what you asked for is not technically impossible, it will be costly in terms of exploration if a foreign avionics package can be adapted to the J-31. If you throw enough money at the challenge, you will succeed. So how much money does Pakistan have ?

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## ebrahym

gambit said:


> While what you asked for is not technically impossible, it will be costly in terms of exploration if a foreign avionics package can be adapted to the J-31. If you throw enough money at the challenge, you will succeed. So how much money does Pakistan have ?


will it be as expensive as j-31 acquisition from china or a fifth gen program ?????......


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## Falcon26

a_b said:


> i may have mislead you i just wanted to say the avionics "we want" .......... and when you said that west will not let it use on a chinese design then i said perhaps we can use jf-17 to get them but instead replicate them on j-31 but you were right it is just a stupid fanboy idea ......... its not worth discussion so lets just move on



It's not difficult to integrate Western avionics and other subsystems on the J-31. It's the same procedure that's used for other fighter jets such as the JF-17. Anyone that says it can't be done has their heads deep in the sand. The issue of integrating western subsystems on the J-31 are political and not technical....and in Pakistan's case, financial as well.

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## ebrahym

Falcon26 said:


> J-31 are political and not technical....and in Pakistan's case, financial as well.


well it will be still cheaper than full j-31 purchase from china ........ political issues are the ones to be dealt with ...... still depends on the immediate need of PAF


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> well it will be still cheaper than full j-31 purchase from china ........ political issues are the ones to be dealt with ...... still depends on the immediate need of PAF


no sir it is not a cheaper option, western countries wouldn't allow us to put in the J-31 and Chinese captures their sensitive technology, just like US one in the distant past


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## Mugwop

a_b said:


> cant we get j-31 airframe and then install avionics we want


Yea we can but we would have to wait till 2020 or even longer for that to happen.

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## ebrahym

Mugwop said:


> Yea we can but we would have to wait till 2020 or even longer for that to happen.


damn right its not like we need 5th gen platform right now................ Falcons are still the best


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> damn right its not like we need 5th gen platform right now................ Falcons are still the best


With the exception of F-22 there is no other 5th gen platform in service in the world, so why you are in a hurry mood?


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## ebrahym

pakistanipower said:


> why you are in a hurry mood?


bro that is exactly what i have said


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## Ultima Thule

a_b said:


> bro that is exactly what i have said


as i said on my above post there is single 5th gen fighter in service and others are in the different development phases, if you are worrying India & Russia's FFGA, i think it will not come after 2022 to 2025 to the Indian airforce, at same time we will have J-31


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## Mohammad ahsen

pakistanipower said:


> as i said on my above post there is single 5th gen fighter in service and others are in the different development phases, if you are worrying India & Russia's FFGA, i think it will not come after 2022 to 2025 to the Indian airforce, at same time we will have J-31


you are ri8 we will waiting for it this time we will made jf 17 comparable to f16 and also in 2022 or 2025 turkey also made fidth generation fighter so we have many option of it



pakistanipower said:


> as i said on my above post there is single 5th gen fighter in service and others are in the different development phases, if you are worrying India & Russia's FFGA, i think it will not come after 2022 to 2025 to the Indian airforce, at same time we will have J-31


and we also equip western avionics in turkey 5th generation so wait and watch


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## Ultima Thule

Mohammad ahsen said:


> you are ri8 we will waiting for it this time we will made jf 17 comparable to f16 and also in 2022 or 2025 turkey also made fidth generation fighter so we have many option of it


sir do some research than reply turkey 5th generation fighter is in initial phase of development and will not come after 2030 no we have only two options 1,TFX 2, J-31 and best bet for Pakistan is J-31 because its string free, the weakest point for TFX is its engine which will come from EF-2000 which is string prone to Pakistan, hope you understand my points Thanks


Mohammad ahsen said:


> and we also equip western avionics in turkey 5th generation so wait and watch


look at my above post


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## fatman17

Saturday, September 10, 2016

J-31 Updates

Most recently, the first LRIP batch of J-20 appears to be handed over to FTTC to start the processing of getting inducted into PLAAF later this year or early next. While J-20 has progressed very smoothly up to this point, J-31 appears to have run into a major roadblock. 

As readers may know, the first J-31 demonstrator came out a couple of years ago to great fanfare. At the time, it was thought to be a SAC funded private project that was also getting some PLAAF funding. Many people, including me, thought that was the first step to getting picked up by PLAAF and/or PLANAF. As it happened, we never saw a second version or a real prototype of J-31 despite many rumours and interesting models in air shows. There were even some rumours earlier this year that a second version of J-31 was about to come out that would be a lot further along toward a production model. 

Most recently, one of the insiders on Chinese forums said that J-31 has not been picked up by PLAAF or PLANAF. At the same time, a more official source said that J-31 is for export. And we know that J-31 will again be brought to display in the 2016 Zhuhai air show. From all of this, it seems that SAC is working hard to attract foreign funding to continue this project. At least as of now, neither the air force nor the navy has interest in this project. Now, I was always under the impression that PLAAF only had interest in one 5th generation fighter jet prior to J-31 demonstrator came out. After that, I thought J-31 might serve as the low end of PLAAF’s future combat force instead of an upgraded J-10 variant. If PLAAF rejected J-31, that could either mean it has no interest in funding a 2nd type of 5th generation aircraft or that J-31 is simple not up to par. If the reason is latter, that could either mean J-31 design is technologically up to PLAAF expectations (in terms of stealth, radar or flight performance) or cost to performance below expectations or certain components simply not ready (like the next generation engine). While PLAAF questions are harder to answer, we do know for sure that PLANAF will need a next generation naval aircraft to replace J-15s. However, they rejected J-31 even though SAC has some real naval aircraft experience in developing and building J-15. So what do I make all of this? 

I think PLAAF will not be ordering that many J-20 over its lifetime, because it is envisions as a high-end aircraft (ala F-22). They definitely need a cheaper and less capable fighter jet that can at least be competitive against F-35s. I don’t think the extremely unstealthy J-11 series or the light and less powerful J-10 series can be the answer to that. Sometimes in the next decade, PLAAF will have the desire for a true lower end 5th generation aircraft. In the past, PLAAF eventually did pick aircraft types that it had originally rejected like JH-7 and K-8 (possibly even L-15). In the case of latter, Hongdu managed to persuade foreign investment into the project. It was only after suitable engines became available that PLAAF decided to pick up K-8 as JL-8. I think that is the road J-31 could go. If it can attract enough foreign funding to continue, then domestic engine options should become available sometimes next decade. At that time, PLAAF could certainly choose to order it. The other question is whether or not PLAAF is willing to have Chengdu produce 2 different 5th generation types. Up until now, PLAAF has preferred to split its projects between Chengdu and Shenyang. Shenyang got the heavy fighter and Chengdu the light fighter. Chengdu won the 5th generation contest with its heavy design to the surprise of many. With J-20’s rapid progress, it hardened my view that Chengdu is far more capable of developing new fighter jet series than Shenyang. With the failure of J-31, I do question whether or not Shenyang is even capable of developing a new fighter jet that appeals to PLAAF. We know it can create new variants of flankers, but that’s far from developing a new aircraft. On the other hand, Chengdu has a lot of work with J-20 series, J-10 series and numerous UAVs. While J-20 was in serious development, the progress of J-10B/C was quite slow due to the shift in engineering resources. When J-20 does go in production in a couple of years, could Chengdu have enough resource again for a new fighter series as well as continued support and upgrades for J-20 and J-10? I certainly have doubts about that. I do think that it is still more likely Shenyang will be producing a 5th generation aircraft type for PLAAF in the future. 

As for PLANAF, the fight is now between a navalized version of J-20 from CAC or something new from SAC. Shenyang won the first round, because PLAN liked the range and payload of flankers. For the next generation, SAC has to start from scratch, while CAC already has a functioning aircraft. Since J-31 has already been rejected, SAC has to come up with something better than that to win over PLAN. J-15 is likely to be in production for at least the next aircraft carrier CV-17. After that, the next generation aircraft carriers of PLAN will likely to be larger than CV-16/17. They would be CATOBAR carriers that can launch fixed wing AEW asset, fully loaded fighter jet and long-range fighter-bombers. Even though J-15 has only joined service recently, PLANAF will soon be deciding between SAC and CAC on the next generation fighter jet. At this point, it seems more likely that a naval version of J-20 or a naval fighter-bomber based on J-20 would get picked. 

So all of this would indicate SAC needs to do something to impress on the decision makers. Most of their projects right now are some flanker variations. We saw the sharp sword demonstrator a while back, but CAC has shown more UAV designs. It will be interesting to see how SAC can move on from the J-11 series. 

Finally, I hear the rumour that the “20” series of aircraft will be the start in Zhuhai airshow this year. I can certainly see Y-20 and Z-20 make appearances in the air show and fly around. However, I do not think J-20 will participate this year. J-31 will appear and try to attract more funding. H-20 is the other project that has attracted a lot of attention from PLA watchers. At this point, we probably won’t see much about it until after it makes a maiden flight. With the size of J-20, I think it can be used to develop a next generation fighter-bomber.

Feng at 6:57 AM

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## Daniel808

*J-31 V.2.0 CG*






*
*

*It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing. 
*











Credit to @cirr
https://defence.pk/threads/sac-fc-31-stealth-aircraft-development-news-discussions.207796/page-148

Pakistan? Iran? Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Bangladesh?

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## syed_yusuf

i think it is Pakistan and Turkey


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lovely bird


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> i think it is Pakistan and Turkey



Turkey has ordered F35


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## fatman17

Pakistan is the only potential buyer at this point, however these are early days as J31 is not a high priority for the Chinese, the J20 is.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAF will be weary ... at least until PLAAF or PLAN buy in or until the Chinese Gov't decides to invest in it in earnest.

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## R!CK

Daniel808 said:


> *J-31 V.2.0 CG*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit to @cirr
> https://defence.pk/threads/sac-fc-31-stealth-aircraft-development-news-discussions.207796/page-148
> 
> Pakistan? Iran? Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Bangladesh?



Pakistan - Possible

Iran - Possible

Turkey - Not possible ( only NATO compatible aircraft will be operated) TFX project and F35 on-order.

Saudi Arabia - Not possible ( Only western jets will be considered, probable customer of TFX)

Bangladesh - Not possible ( Economy and threat perception warrants JF-17 or J-10 at best ) however current political situation votes against JF-17.

Other probable options?

Algeria and other African nations which are currently operating Su30 and can't afford PAKFA.

South American countries that can't afford PAKFA.

Good Day!

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## Dazzler

Static Frame being readied...

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## Ultima Thule

Dazzler said:


> Static Frame being readied...


i think its an old image a year or two old


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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> i think its an old image a year or two old




Indeed ... but even if I'm usually already more than impatient, I always thought, SAC will likely show the FC-31.V2 at least by late September in order to "celebrate" 4th maiden-flight anniversary.

Given that these rumours are around since - like You say - more than a year and V1 was unveiled on 16. September 2014 followed by a maiden flight on 31. October I'm slowely losing my faith !

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## Zain Malik

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Lovely bird


Is that a photoshop or what..??


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Indeed ... but even if I'm usually already more than impatient, I always thought, SAC will likely show the FC-31.V2 at least by late September in order to "celebrate" 4th maiden-flight anniversary.
> 
> Given that these rumours are around since - like You say - more than a year and V1 was unveiled on 16. September 2014 followed by a maiden flight on 31. October I'm slowely losing my faith !



Well, the V1 technically flew on 31 October 2012, so we still have 10 days left.


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## Ultima Thule

Zain Malik said:


> Is that a photoshop or what..??


Photoshop bro not real


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## aftab_s81

Looks so real, and flattering too.


pakistanipower said:


> Photoshop bro not real



Looks so real, and flattering too.


pakistanipower said:


> Photoshop bro not real


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## Ultima Thule

aftab_s81 said:


> Looks so real, and flattering too.
> 
> 
> Looks so real, and flattering too.


its J-31 v2, mock-up will be shown in up coming Zuhai airshow in china, first flight will be expected in letter this year or early next year


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## aftab_s81

pakistanipower said:


> its J-31 v2, mock-up will be shown in up coming Zuhai airshow in china, first flight will be expected in letter this year or early next year




Will be obliged to see any source of this information.


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## Indo-Pak

I have some queires, which I can't get from this thread even after reading last 4-5 page of this thread,

1. Is China selling FC31?
2. Is JF31 ready for sale?
3. Is Pakistani and China jointly working on FC31 as they did with JF17?
4. Is there any official negotiation going for FC31? 
5. Is there interest shown by PAF to Govenment for aquiring 5th gen plane?


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## aftab_s81

Indo-Pak said:


> I have some queires, which I can't get from this thread even after reading last 4-5 page of this thread,
> 
> 1. Is China selling FC31?
> 2. Is JF31 ready for sale?
> 3. Is Pakistani and China jointly working on FC31 as they did with JF17?
> 4. Is there any official negotiation going for FC31?
> 5. Is there interest shown by PAF to Govenment for aquiring 5th gen plane?



1. Yes, but its called J-31
2. There is no aircraft named JF31
3. No, only China working on that
4. I don't think there are any negotiations but EVALUATION is an ongoing process, so is the case may be for Su-35
5. Officially no statement, rumors are PAF want J-31 or similar to take place of their Tier-I platform, i.e, F-16.

@Windjammer


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## Indo-Pak

gambit said:


> You cannot do that. Or at best, you options will be severely limited.
> 
> The F-117 used the F-16's flight controls avionics. Not from the F-15. But from the F-16. Even so, that did not mean we can swap the flight controls computer (FLCC) between the two platforms. What we did was took the FLCS from the F-16 and modified it to compensate for the F-117's flying idiosyncrasies, and every airframe have its quirks. The F-117 was no different. The F-16's FLCS was flexible enough to be modded. General Dynamics did not planned it that way. They just happened to design the entire package, airframe + avionics, in a combination that became unexpectedly versatile.
> 
> What you asked for, there are many unknowns. To start, you must have baseline data of the J-31's aerodynamics, at least from wind tunnel testing. Then you must have data from as wide a variety of FLCS as possible on the ranges of each system, such as AOA limits, surface deflection degrees and rates, and the list is long.
> 
> Go back to the F-16's FLCS for a moment. The F-16 have mechanical speedbrakes, but the F-117 does not. Unmodified, if the computer did not 'see' a pair of speedbrakes, it would assume that there is something wrong with the entire aircraft and default to certain basic flight control algorithms. We had to disable that part of the FLCC in order to perform in the F-117. The F-16 have leading edge (LE) flaps, the F-117 does not. The differences between the two airframes are long, but the fact that the F-16's FLCS was used is testament to the genius from General Dynamics.
> 
> While what you asked for is not technically impossible, it will be costly in terms of exploration if a foreign avionics package can be adapted to the J-31. If you throw enough money at the challenge, you will succeed. So how much money does Pakistan have ?




Though I join soon, I have been reading your posts/replies since years. Big admirer of you..



aftab_s81 said:


> 1. Yes, but its called J-31
> 2. There is no aircraft named JF31
> 3. No, only China working on that
> 4. I don't think there are any negotiations but EVALUATION is an ongoing process, so is the case may be for Su-35
> 5. Officially no statement, rumors are PAF want J-31 or similar to take place of their Tier-I platform, i.e, F-16.
> 
> @Windjammer




Thank you Sir, @aftab_s81 , So it means, the plane is not ready yet. Once its ready and If china is willing to sell it Pakistan "MAY" buy it , provided Pakistan economy allows. 

I am looking the net to find out when this plane will be ready for China and when China will have adaquate number of bird and when the assembly line will be free for Exports.. 

For example: India has made a bird, the assembly line will be busy for next 5 years to fullfil india need, once that is done India can export that bird. In short, Once domestic need to fulfill birds can be exported. 

*If a bird is ready to be made, it may take 5-10 years for export (unless joint developed like JF17, F35 or FGFA).*


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## aftab_s81

Indo-Pak said:


> Though I join soon, I have been reading your posts/replies since years. Big admirer of you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Sir, @aftab_s81 , So it means, the plane is not ready yet. Once its ready and If china is willing to sell it Pakistan "MAY" buy it , provided Pakistan economy allows.
> 
> I am looking the net to find out when this plane will be ready for China and when China will have adaquate number of bird and when the assembly line will be free for Exports..
> 
> For example: India has made a bird, the assembly line will be busy for next 5 years to fullfil india need, once that is done India can export that bird. In short, Once domestic need to fulfill birds can be exported.
> 
> *If a bird is ready to be made, it may take 5-10 years for export (unless joint developed like JF17, F35 or FGFA).*




The plane is in the prototyping stage. China may unveil (rumors) the second, aerodynamically more refined prototype, in the coming Airshow China (http://www.airshow.com.cn). I personally think the induction may happen near/beyond 2020 PROVIDED, one, it meets PAF requirements, two, PAF has finances. Also there must be consideration if PLANAF (the air branch of Chinese Navy) inducts it or not. PAF has always been secretive in this regard and Chines are always very secretive. BTW first prototype flew in 2014, process is slow due priority of J-20.

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## Dazzler

FC-31 is exclusively developed for export market. Here is what Catic Website says....


The FC-31 is a *fourth generation multi role fighter developed for the international market*. With excellent combined operation effectiveness and independent intellectual property rights, it adopts a normal configuration - single seat, twin engine, outward tilted twin vertical tail and all movable horizontal tail, with big S inlet on its both sides and a built-in weapon pod.
*
Features:*
a) High survival rate: low radar observability, low IR radiation, excellent ECM, and low vulnerability;
b) Multi mission capabilities: strong target detection and integrated outside information capability, outstanding status sensing and information sharing capability, beyond visual range (BVR) multi target attacking and large off-boresight all directional combat capability, accurate air-surface strike capability, and complicated weather conditions and vast region operation adaptability;
c) Excellent integrated logistics capability; and
d) High cost performance.


http://www.catic.cn/front

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## volatile

Dazzler said:


> *Features:*
> a) High survival rate: low radar observability, low IR radiation, excellent ECM, and low vulnerability;
> b) Multi mission capabilities: strong target detection and integrated outside information capability, outstanding status sensing and information sharing capability, beyond visual range (BVR) multi target attacking and large off-boresight all directional combat capability, accurate air-surface strike capability, and complicated weather conditions and vast region operation adaptability;
> c) Excellent integrated logistics capability; and
> d) High cost performance.


Thanks ,Just a quick question is there any third party verification for the claims ? e.g like a body/protocols which verifies these claims

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## aftab_s81

IMHO, it doesn't make sense to buy this aircraft (J-31), unless China chooses for it PLANAF. It will be highly insecure platform if country of origin doesn't put some of its eggs in this basket as well. Moreover, the selection of PLANAF will actually accelerate the development process and further refine the base design. Pakistan will have a readily available carrier-based platform, if in future, ever Pakistan decides to have one.
@MastanKhan @Windjammer

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## Deino

aftab_s81 said:


> 1. Yes, but its called J-31
> ..




NO !! This aircraft is ONLY called FC-31 ... J-31 - even if I use this erroneously too - is wrong, since only operational types within the PLAAF get a "J"-designation.

Deino

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## Dazzler

volatile said:


> Thanks ,Just a quick question is there any third party verification for the claims ? e.g like a body/protocols which verifies these claims



Hmm, I wonder, did you ever question LM or Boeing or SAAB about their product features they have listed on their website?


----------



## volatile

Dazzler said:


> Hmm, I wonder, did you ever question LM or Boeing or SAAB about their product features they have listed on their website?


Its a generic question not centric or biased to any one .Argument i choose over this narration e.g tomorrow HAL comes up with XYZ claim or PAC claims some thing but in reality the performance is not as it seems to be so thats why there are several bodies like ISO for quality guarantee ,CoC Chain of custody or some thing on these lines ,it will be interested and educated for all of us to know that

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## MastanKhan

aftab_s81 said:


> IMHO, it doesn't make sense to buy this aircraft (J-31), unless China chooses for it PLANAF. It will be highly insecure platform if country of origin doesn't put some of its eggs in this basket as well. Moreover, the selection of PLANAF will actually accelerate the development process and further refine the base design. Pakistan will have a readily available carrier-based platform, if in future, ever Pakistan decides to have one.
> @MastanKhan @Windjammer



Hi,

Paf has become an extremely unpredictable and unpatriotic organization---. The nation needs to start to decide what needs to be done regarding the purchase of the airforce.

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## Incog_nito

I think J-20s are coming....


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## aftab_s81

Oxair Online said:


> I think J-20s are coming....



I think F-22 is coming alongwith F-35, Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen and .. did I miss any?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf has become an extremely unpredictable and unpatriotic organization---. The nation needs to start to decide what needs to be done regarding the purchase of the airforce.



I don't want to tag them unpatriotic (or anyone else for that matter), but they are extremely unpredictable. They are unlike any airforce in the world. Sweds are working on Gripen NG, India on Rafale, PAK-FA, even smaller airforces have visible plan. But when it comes to PAF, well, you can see.

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## Ultima Thule

Oxair Online said:


> I think J-20s are coming....


Not possible, ban for export just like F-22


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## 592257001

aftab_s81 said:


> IMHO, it doesn't make sense to buy this aircraft (J-31), unless China chooses for it PLANAF. It will be highly insecure platform if country of origin doesn't put some of its eggs in this basket as well. Moreover, the selection of PLANAF will actually accelerate the development process and further refine the base design. Pakistan will have a readily available carrier-based platform, if in future, ever Pakistan decides to have one.
> @MastanKhan @Windjammer



Neither was FC-1/JF-17 choosen by PLAN/PLAAF, yet it has flourished into a very capable fighter for PAF. 

At the end of the day, the same reason which prohibited the PLAN/PLAAF from inducting JF-17 exists for FC-31 as well. The quantitative demand for fighters in China is great enough to warrant highly specialized fighters, instead of "Jack of all trades" such as JF-17 or FC-31. 

Whereas PAF most likely prioritizes the element of multi-purpose more than anything else.

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## aftab_s81

592257001 said:


> Neither was FC-1/JF-17 choosen by PLAN/PLAAF, yet it has flourished into a very capable fighter for PAF.
> 
> At the end of the day, the same reason which prohibited the PLAN/PLAAF from inducting JF-17 exists for FC-31 as well. The quantitative demand for fighters in China is great enough to warrant highly specialized fighters, instead of "Jack of all trades" such as JF-17 or FC-31.
> 
> Whereas PAF most likely prioritizes the element of multi-purpose more than anything else.



Selecting JF-17 for PAF, IMHO, wasn't the smartest choice. I think J-10 with better payload and range also inducted into PLAAF, would have been a better choice. And we wouldn't have been crying for F-16s from US. PAF (and all armed forces of Pak) have habit of glorifying their toys, it does not change the regional balance of power. JF-17 is short legged, also pointed out by Tofail kaiser, a veteran and legendary PAF pilot. 

My point is, if the manufacturing nation inducts a platform in her own Airforce/Navy, it gives a great boost to the program itself. It actually accelerated the development process, makes the unit cost to come down. There has been lots of criticism of JF-17 not being inducted in PLAAF. I assert my point of view that inducting J-31 without being inducted by PLANAF is far below the ideal situation.
@Windjammer, @MastanKhan @Dazzler

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## AsifIjaz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf has become an extremely unpredictable and unpatriotic organization---. The nation needs to start to decide what needs to be done regarding the purchase of the airforce.



Just like your dozens of other posts on the PAF fiascos, I agree with you on this one as well. The nation need to know these stories and they deserve better. I urge you that for a change please stop your knowledgeable discussion solely from your smart phone or laptop and submit a petition to make you the air chief.... as it is apparent that you can think, anticipate and take calculated and farsighted decisions better than individuals who have spent a life time in PAF.

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Well, the V1 technically flew on 31 October 2012, so we still have 10 days left.




Now only 3 days left !


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## royalharris

I think FC 31 project will come into production much more later compared with anticipation. maybe it will never come into production.


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## Akasa

First photographs of the v2.0 prototype have appeared. It seems that the FC-31 is still going on!

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## khanasifm

JF17/FC-1 was go ahead because the numbers needed by just PAF around 200-250/275 made it viable plus some export 100-200 w/o PLAAF

JF-31 I do not think PAF would go for that big no max 40-80 (guess as F16 replacement in 15 years or so) so its better it goes after something low risk with a/c order my another partner like Turkish or PLAAF J-20, J-20 may not be av. now but in future it can be to PAF

F-31 is a possibility if someone else makes a big order like ME country or Egypt and then PAF follows

My 2 cents


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## Akasa

The FC-31 v2.0 prototype has been completed. It might make its maiden flight soon.

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## WarFariX

By the looks of this pic , jet's surrounding has been cut in photoshop.....and as the canopy is open and the tail stabilizers are down , i guess in a day or 2 it will make its first flight. Already the picture hints that a fully functional prototype is standing outside


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## WarFariX

not to mention , they have even cut the wheels


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## Teejay khan

better to buy J-31 
i would prefer that make little effect on the JF-17 to become stealth and more light 
changing their design like J-31 nearly
with single Engine better chinses Enging with good grade


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## nadeemkhan110

*China's AVIC and Pakistan's PAF is Looking into the Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter Project*
*




*

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232

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## S10

J-31 is the perfect fit for PAF, since it shares the same engine as the JF-17 (RD-93, later WS-13E). Pakistan will be able to have a much easier time maintaining the fleet compared to a plane that uses WS-10 or WS-15. In addition, JF-17 could simply use a simplified version of J-31's advanced avionics and radar for its future upgrades. Did I mention they will likely share commonality in weapon systems too?

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## WarFariX

S10 said:


> J-31 is the perfect fit for PAF, since it shares the same engine as the JF-17 (RD-93, later WS-13E). Pakistan will be able to have a much easier time maintaining the fleet compared to a plane that uses WS-10 or WS-15. In addition, JF-17 could simply use a simplified version of J-31's advanced avionics and radar for its future upgrades. Did I mention they will likely share commonality in weapon systems too?


when it comes to internal weapons bays missile versions matter..as fins and size of missile may or may not fit


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## aliyusuf

@MarvellousThunder@PDC 

Well your prediction about the 2nd J-31 prototype flying this December is apparently going to come true.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232


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## S10

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> when it comes to internal weapons bays missile versions matter..as fins and size of missile may or may not fit


There is a PL-12 variant in development that have smaller fins for internal carriage, similar in performance to AIM-120D. J-31 will be able to carry 4 medium range (PL-12C) + 2 short range AAM (PL-10) in its bay.

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## WarFariX

S10 said:


> There is a PL-12 variant in development that have smaller fins for internal carriage, similar in performance to AIM-120D. J-31 will be able to carry 4 medium range (PL-12C) + 2 short range AAM (PL-10) in its bay.


yes i know...thnx btw.....but i am eager to see recently tested huge PL-15 and in development PL-21 rumoured range 400+
for J-31 with reduced size version


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## WarFariX

aliyusuf said:


> @MarvellousThunder@PDC
> 
> Well your prediction about the 2nd J-31 prototype flying this December is apparently going to come true.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232


yep..


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## WarFariX

aliyusuf said:


> @MarvellousThunder@PDC
> 
> Well your prediction about the 2nd J-31 prototype flying this December is apparently going to come true.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232


and i also think most probably by 22-23


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## WarFariX

aliyusuf said:


> @MarvellousThunder@PDC
> 
> Well your prediction about the 2nd J-31 prototype flying this December is apparently going to come true.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232


we can also expect in the same period the first inducted J-20 picture with serial number


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## mzeeshanfahd

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> we can also expect in the same period the first inducted J-20 picture with serial number



I think @Dieno already shared it ..... will try to find it ...


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## Akasa

The FC-31 v2.0 has started ground taxi tests. Flight tests are imminent.

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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> yes i know...thnx btw.....but i am eager to see recently tested huge PL-15 and in development PL-21 rumoured range 400+
> for J-31 with reduced size version


PL-15 has a range of 180,200 Km not 400 Km and PL-21 is in development but range is not 400 Km but in a same class Euro METEOR with a range of 100 Km


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## Maxpane

Any special change in v2?

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## Akasa

Maxpane said:


> Any special change in v2?



Cropped wings, single-piece canopy, addition of an EOTS, cockpit changes, possible engine upgrade, enlarged fuselage, redesigned vertical stabilizers, modifications to enhance VLO capabilities, and fully-functioning subsystems. Essentially, the V2.0 would be to the FC-31 v1.0 what the F-35A was to the X-35.

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## Maxpane

SinoSoldier said:


> Cropped wings, single-piece canopy, addition of an EOTS, cockpit changes, possible engine upgrade, enlarged fuselage, redesigned vertical stabilizers, modifications to enhance VLO capabilities, and fully-functioning subsystems. Essentially, the V2.0 would be to the FC-31 v1.0 what the F-35A was to the X-35.


Thanks


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## messiach

Interesting beginning. 



SinoSoldier said:


> Cropped wings, single-piece canopy, addition of an EOTS, cockpit changes, possible engine upgrade, enlarged fuselage, redesigned vertical stabilizers, modifications to enhance VLO capabilities, and fully-functioning subsystems. Essentially, the V2.0 would be to the FC-31 v1.0 what the F-35A was to the X-35.

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## Cool_Soldier

Hope to see ne of them (J31 0R J20) in PAF clours soon.

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## 帅的一匹

PAF just wait for it, make it fast.

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## 帅的一匹

I think J31 V2 shall have similar scheme and paint job of J20, it looks sharp.


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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Interesting beginning.


Not exactly. considering you have worked with them; you should know. Chinese see, Chinese do. 
There is a reason they are forbidden from Jacobabad.

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## araz

messiach said:


> Interesting beginning.


A very laden and I dare say cryptic message. Please elaborate.
regards
A


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## WarFariX

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. considering you have worked with them; you should know. Chinese see, Chinese do.
> There is a reason they are forbidden from Jacobabad.


elaborate jacobabad plz


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## messiach

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. considering you have worked with them; you should know. Chinese see, Chinese do.
> There is a reason they are forbidden from Jacobabad.



I left 2005. I have limited info on project 611 apart from OKB turbines. There are hundreds of engineers working under various heads (but connections always remain live).

I have limited info on project 611 apart from high thrust OKB turbines.



araz said:


> A very laden and I dare say cryptic message. Please elaborate.
> regards
> A

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> I left 2005. I have limited info on project 611 apart from OKB turbines. There are hundreds of engineers working under various heads (but connections always remain live).
> 
> I have limited info on project 611 apart from high thrust OKB turbines.


Not referring to the project but why they are essentially forbidden from Jacobabad. Why every other product they offer has some inspiration from other sources.

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## CHINA83NEWS

SUPARCO said:


> Can't imagine Pakistan buying a Chinese fighter aircraft that the Chinese won't buy themselves unless it's designed specifically for Pakistan like the FC-1 Fierce Dragon / JF-17 Thunder.


no longer.As you can on the platform of an important weight

For Pakistan awacs with China is a very good fighter.Also adding new technology.


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## messiach

This is not my perception. Despite third rated arm-twisting tactics by western capitals directly or indirectly through russian blackmail, they successfully completed HTT projects under different heads. Chinese are resilient and innovative contrary to many beliefs.


Oscar said:


> Not referring to the project but why they are essentially forbidden from Jacobabad. Why every other product they offer has some inspiration from other sources.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> This is not my perception. Despite third rated arm-twisting tactics by western capitals directly or indirectly through russian blackmail, they successfully completed HTT projects under different heads. Chinese are resilient and innovative contrary to many beliefs.


You are linking resilience and innovation with their ability to adapt various western conceps quickly which is fair.

But that does not take away a general approach of reverse engineering that they take. To the extent that even the Turks were wary when we suggested that we would like to test the "NRTC" radios compatibility with some Chinese offerring.


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## WarFariX

messiach said:


> This is not my perception. Despite third rated arm-twisting tactics by western capitals directly or indirectly through russian blackmail, they successfully completed HTT projects under different heads. Chinese are resilient and innovative contrary to many beliefs.


can you guys tell me what is this project 611 and is it anyway linked with those large turbine engines 5-6months ago being moved from HIT taxila to somewhere else????


Oscar said:


> You are linking resilience and innovation with their ability to adapt various western conceps quickly which is fair.
> 
> But that does not take away a general approach of reverse engineering that they take. To the extent that even the Turks were wary when we suggested that we would like to test the "NRTC" radios compatibility with some Chinese offerring.


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## messiach

Reverse engineering HTT's - high thrust turbines is not possible. Chinese never bothered to reverse engineer mikoyan engines. Turbines now being tested onboard their heavy-lifter are pure bread chinese. RE is not chinese exclusive, UK based firms RE when the need and demand arise and circumstances exist. 



Oscar said:


> You are linking resilience and innovation with their ability to adapt various western conceps quickly which is fair.
> 
> But that does not take away a general approach of reverse engineering that they take. To the extent that even the Turks were wary when we suggested that we would like to test the "NRTC" radios compatibility with some Chinese offerring.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Reverse engineering HTT's - high thrust turbines is not possible. Chinese never bothered to reverse engineer mikoyan engines. Turbines now being tested onboard their heavy-lifter are pure bread chinese. RE is not chinese exclusive, UK based firms RE when the need and demand arise and circumstances exist.


I am not referring to purely HTT's, but other avenues. UK firms(and elsewhere) doing RE end up in IP courts, such as Qinetiq did and depending on the deepness of pockets and effectivness of lawyers; some lose millions while others get away.


The highlight is not RE , but the level of dependence on it. Although in the past few years it has lessened considerably. There is nothing wrong with wanting to adopt ideas and improvements, but where it 

That being said, the Israelis led the RE and knowledge theft field during the 70's and 80's.


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## WarFariX

@Deino ban him plz[emoji651][emoji651][emoji651][emoji651][emoji651]


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## messiach

I recognise where you are coming from.
US is guilty of RE EMPP (electromagnetic pr.propulsion) & grade 6+ titanium/tin/vanadium/palladium/niobium+silicone alloys for AeroSp engineering. All countries do, but i take your point.



Oscar said:


> I am not referring to purely HTT's, but other avenues. UK firms(and elsewhere) doing RE end up in IP courts, such as Qinetiq did and depending on the deepness of pockets and effectivness of lawyers; some lose millions while others get away.
> 
> 
> The highlight is not RE , but the level of dependence on it. Although in the past few years it has lessened considerably. There is nothing wrong with wanting to adopt ideas and improvements, but where it
> 
> That being said, the Israelis led the RE and knowledge theft field during the 70's and 80's.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> I am not referring to purely HTT's, but other avenues. UK firms(and elsewhere) doing RE end up in IP courts, such as Qinetiq did and depending on the deepness of pockets and effectivness of lawyers; some lose millions while others get away.
> 
> 
> The highlight is not RE , but the level of dependence on it. Although in the past few years it has lessened considerably. There is nothing wrong with wanting to adopt ideas and improvements, but where it
> 
> That being said, the Israelis led the RE and knowledge theft field during the 70's and 80's.



Hi,

Could you please give the example of one major weapon that they reverse engineered.


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## Avicenna

For starters the Mirage 5. Although there are rumors they were helped by Dassault.


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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> For starters the Mirage 5. Although there are rumors they were helped by Dassault.



Hi,

If you are responding to my question---then your answer is incorrect---.

You must not have read the book about the operation that bagged the blueprints of the mirage 5 being built in switzerland---they weighed about 2 tons and were stored in a general storage facility---someone guided the israelis in that direction---the storage manager was a ' kind ' hearted man and looked the other way after his pockets were warmed---.

So---that is not reverse engineering.

Reverse engineering is something that you have to build something from the actual copy without the benefits of blueprints or other material, technical or FUNCTIONAL input---which means---that you take it apart---look and analyze every part and understand how every part was designed to function and what it would do.

As jew scientists were on both the sides of the wall and most of the inventions had jewish scientists influence in them----reverse engineering was not what they were looking for.

But rather---ENHANCED engineering product is what they were after---once they decided to manufacture it themselves---after stealing the designs---.

Here is a quote from a post on sinodefence forum

"he fighter that Israel produced Kfir, which is a perfect copy of Mirage 5 Israel got all the blueprint from Swiss engineer who work on licence built mirage 5 for the swiss airforce. So much for high fallutin IAI. They steal the design of Mirage 5 lock stock and barrel

_By 1968, Dassault had finished production of the 50 Mirage 5Js paid for by Israel, but an arms embargo imposed upon Israel by the French government in 1967 prevented deliveries from taking place. *The Israelis replied by producing an unlicensed copy of the Mirage 5, the Nesher, with technical specifications for both the airframe and the engine obtained by Israeli spies*.[1] Some sources claim Israel received 50 Mirage 5s in crates from French Air Force (AdA), while the AdA took over the 50 aircraft originally intended for Israel_

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-01-19/news/mn-255_1_alfred-frauenknecht
_Alfred Frauenknecht, 64, a Swiss engineer found guilty in 1971 of selling Mirage jet engine secrets to Israel. Frauenknecht was sentenced to 4 1/2 years in prison in what was then Switzerland's biggest spy trial since World War II. At his trial, Frauenknecht, who was not Jewish, said he felt morally obliged to help the Jewish people after the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War. He said he was concerned that the Soviet Union was helping Egypt to rebuild its armed forces, while Israel was suffering from an arms embargo imposed by France after the war. The Israeli air force relied on French equipment for its Mirage jet fighter force. Frauenknecht was a senior engineer with the company that manufactured the Mirage jet fighter engines for the Swiss air force under license from the French company. He admitted receiving $200,000 from Israel for about 200,000 jet engine blueprints smuggled in crates. The case prompted the Swiss government to expel an Israeli military attache. In Aadorf, Switzerland, on Jan. 8 after a heart attack".

I had the book in possesion---but I guess the last time I moved---I donated it to a library._

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## Avicenna

Yes you are correct.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Could you please give the example of one major weapon that they reverse engineered.


F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi 
RLGs, early(1970s) radar tech, nuclear weapon designs
T-55s at the lower end
A huge amount of software
Etc etc

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## Avicenna

I think he meant Israeli examples of RE.

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## messiach

Avicenna said:


> For starters the Mirage 5. Although there are rumors they were helped by Dassault.



Thats correct. Part of Bombardier AeroSp engineering core, i have collaborated with Dassault aviations and Enovia. Both the latter organisations are infested with Israelis.

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## messiach

Oscar said:


> F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi
> Etc etc


No IAI aircraft incld. LAVI in parts or full was ever transferred to chengu or elsewhere. Initial models had detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in russian wind-tunnels. Sino-russian collaboration was key in J-10 development.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> No IAI aircraft incld. LAVI in parts or full was ever transferred to chengu or elsewhere. Initial models had detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in russian wind-tunnels. Sino-russian collaboration was key in J-10 development.



I know a very senior GD engineer who would state otherwise. The Israelis sent a fairly large team to FW to learn to maintain their own jets in house and manufacture spare parts. In their goodwill , the GD engineers were very open to them. Information that ended up on the Lavi, and information that was shared beyond IAI.

Not saying that the J-10 is the lavi or that the program originated from there. But a lot of concepts were shared, and then a lot of assistance was taken from the Russians too.

Just because international relations point in one direction doesnt mean that cooperation for cash stops. The F-7MGs wing isnt something thought up in house either, or at least not without inspiration. 

I am searching for an image from an old Grumman notebook which shows the idea for the cranked delta done by the Grumman engineer during the Super 7 program.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> I know a very senior GD engineer who would state otherwise. The Israelis sent a fairly large team to FW to learn to maintain their own jets in house and manufacture spare parts. In their goodwill , the GD engineers were very open to them. Information that ended up on the Lavi, and information that was shared beyond IAI.
> 
> Not saying that the J-10 is the lavi or that the program originated from there. But a lot of concepts were shared, and then a lot of assistance was taken from the Russians too.
> 
> Just because international relations point in one direction doesnt mean that cooperation for cash stops. The F-7MGs wing isnt something thought up in house either, or at least not without inspiration.
> 
> I am searching for an image from an old Grumman notebook which shows the idea for the cranked delta done by the Grumman engineer during the Super 7 program.


This might/might not be it (double delta Sabre II)

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/f7mf.html


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might/might not be it (double delta Sabre II)
> 
> http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/f7mf.html


There is an image out there of the rough sketch by grumman engineers


----------



## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi
> RLGs, early(1970s) radar tech, nuclear weapon designs
> T-55s at the lower end
> A huge amount of software
> Etc etc




Hi,

But that is not reverse engineering---. That is product enhancement---. 

They would find the resource for the design---material---blue prints and have a total picture of the technology up in the front and build up on it---.

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## 帅的一匹

http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d8673e1ly1fb0n1ymj0dj20hr0bujso0.jpg

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## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> But that is not reverse engineering---. That is product enhancement---.
> 
> They would find the resource for the design---material---blue prints and have a total picture of the technology up in the front and build up on it---.


Maybe PAF will be the first one in South Asia to produce 5th gen fighter in the near future.

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## raazh

wanglaokan said:


> http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d8673e1ly1fb0n1ymj0dj20hr0bujso0.jpg



What engine are those ?? The exhaust petals look a bit too dark for RD93 ..


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## 帅的一匹

raazh said:


> What engine are those ?? The exhaust petals look a bit too dark for RD93 ..


WS13E

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## Akasa

More photos of the FC-31 v2. The engines are WS-13E.

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## I FLY HIGH

wonderful , i think PAF is involved in its development too , it is a future bird for PAF.


----------



## royalharris

wanglaokan said:


> Maybe PAF will be the first one in South Asia to produce 5th gen fighter in the near future.


I think maybe Iran or ksa
Paf are more infatuated with west options,like Tfx or F35


----------



## MystryMan

wanglaokan said:


> WE13E


Any information or specifications available for WS13E?


----------



## I FLY HIGH

royalharris said:


> I think maybe Iran or ksa
> Paf are more infatuated with west options,like Tfx or F35


not at all , F35 is nowhere , F16s are refused , TFX is on paper may or may not mature . Pakistan has no other choice available. Secondly now Chinese scientists and engineers have really bridged the technological gap between European and Chinese defence products . We have JF17 as a best example of quality and reliabilty.So i am sure PAF will go for fc31.

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## 帅的一匹

MystryMan said:


> Any information or specifications available for WS13E?


Max wet thrust: >90KN
Weight: 1050KG
Life span: 3000 hours
First overhaul interval: 1000 hours

The final target will be >98KN

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## aftab_s81

Some nice pics of J-31 V2 here:

http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/12/23/second-fc-31-takes-to-the-air/

Fight Global: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinas-second-fc-31-takes-flight-432720/


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## aliyusuf

wanglaokan said:


> Max wet thrust: >90KN
> Weight: 1050KG
> Life span: 3000 hours
> First overhaul interval: 1000 hours
> 
> The final target will be >98KN



Could you kindly post whatever that is known of the specification of this aircraft? Like dimensions, engines, performance, radar and EW Suite etc. if possible?

This would be a great help for everyone I presume.

Thanks


----------



## Daniel808

WS-13 IPE Engine + 3D Printing Technology 







Cannot wait to see, this beast with PAF Colour

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## khanasifm

Is there official statement that engines are chi nese ws13 or rd93 modified version??? 

I guess everyone is guessing correct?


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## WarFariX

khanasifm said:


> Is there official statement that engines are chi nese ws13 or rd93 modified version???
> 
> I guess everyone is guessing correct?


yes officially confirmed that it is using WS-13E . Check the other SAC FC31 thread , a guy their posted a link in which an official confirms ws13e

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## aziqbal

khanasifm said:


> Is there official statement that engines are chi nese ws13 or rd93 modified version???
> 
> I guess everyone is guessing correct?



Just look at the picture we don't need official statement


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## WarFariX

aziqbal said:


> Just look at the picture we don't need official statement


bro clearly its not a rd93 coz its even darker


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## messiach

Since you are quoting a senior engineer, i will accept it otherwise Jian10 & lavi programmes have nothing in common. I have been involved, I aught to know.




Oscar said:


> I know a very senior GD engineer who would state otherwise. The Israelis sent a fairly large team to FW to learn to maintain their own jets in house and manufacture spare parts. In their goodwill , the GD engineers were very open to them. Information that ended up on the Lavi, and information that was shared beyond IAI.
> 
> Not saying that the J-10 is the lavi or that the program originated from there. But a lot of concepts were shared, and then a lot of assistance was taken from the Russians too.
> 
> Just because international relations point in one direction doesnt mean that cooperation for cash stops. The F-7MGs wing isnt something thought up in house either, or at least not without inspiration.
> 
> I am searching for an image from an old Grumman notebook which shows the idea for the cranked delta done by the Grumman engineer during the Super 7 program.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Since you are quoting a senior engineer, i will accept it otherwise Jian10 & lavi programmes have nothing in common. I have been involved, I aught to know.


Please do not misconstrue my inference on information as indicating that IAI engineers sat in Chengdu or anything of that sort. I am referring to information sharing , idea sharing and so on which was very much a monetary transaction.

I am not questioning your knowledge or involvement, but lets not discount that for many years despite our vehement opposition to Israel; various spare parts and even knowledge has been transferred to us(_via channels_) as pure monetary transaction.


----------



## Naif al Hilali

*China’s Highly Evolved FC-31 Stealth Fighter Makes Its First Flight*
*China’s high-low stealth fighter mix strategy is evolving rapidly.*
By Tyler Rogoway
December 23, 2016





Chinese Internet
_
The War Zone_ reported on the existence of a second rendition of China’s Shenyang FC-31 Gyrfalcon stealth fighter when pictures of the design under construction surfaced during the Zhuhai Air Show in early November. Now that aircraft—which features substantial upgrades in its low observable shaping and manufacturing quality—has flown for the first time, as evidenced by the photos and video below.

Not only could an operational FC-31 help fill the ranks of PLAAF medium and light fighter squadrons, but it could also be adapted for China’s emerging CATOBAR aircraft carrier program. This would give China a stealthy fighter that can project power far from the Chinese mainland.

If this redesign proves fruitful, it's all but guaranteed China will move to export the FC-31 to anyone with the cash to buy it. Many countries either can't afford, or are not allowed to buy, the Lockheed Martin F-35 from the US. These nations could turn to China and the FC-31 to provide them with a “poor man’s” Joint Strike Fighter. Pakistan, in particular, is a very ripe candidate to join the FC-31 program early on–especially as new aircraft join the Indian Air Force’s fleet, including the PAK-FA based on Russia’s stealthy T-50 fighter.

The FC-31 appeared for the first time over four years ago, and the fact that already moved from “YF” configuration to a near production configuration is telling. It shows how committed China is to developing multiple stealth fighters as part of a high-low capability mix, and to take a larger share of the fighter export market abroad.





AP
The FC-31/J-31 prototype appeared at Zhuhai in 2014 but disappeared for some time thereafter, with some analysts saying the program was dead. Now it is reemerging in a vastly upgraded form.

The FC-31 is one of three light to medium-weight stealthy fighters being developed indigenously in the region—Japan and Korea are the other two countries taking on such endeavours, and both are also F-35 customers. They will likely end up with designs that will be similar to what the F-35 would have been like without the F-35B’s damning STOVL requirements that mired the jet’s design and specifically its aerodynamics.

How stealthy an airframe and how advanced China's FC-31's sensor fusion and avionics suite will be is unknown. But even an 70% solution alternative to the F-35 that costs 40% of Lockheed Martin's price is an enticing proposition, as quantity has a quality all its own.





AP
An artists impression of the FC-31/J-31 and the J-20 over China's only carrier the Liaoning. 

_Contact the author Tyler@thedrive.com_

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## dropkix

The SC said:


> *
> View attachment 112246
> 
> View attachment 112247
> 
> 
> View attachment 112248
> *


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> Please do not misconstrue my inference on information as indicating that IAI engineers sat in Chengdu or anything of that sort. I am referring to information sharing , idea sharing and so on which was very much a monetary transaction.
> 
> I am not questioning your knowledge or involvement, but lets not discount that for many years despite our vehement opposition to Israel; various spare parts and even knowledge has been transferred to us(_via channels_) as pure monetary transaction.


 I do respect your opinion, but some examples of spare parts and knowledge transfer will be appreciated..


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## SQ8

The SC said:


> I do respect your opinion, but some examples of spare parts and knowledge transfer will be appreciated..


From where to where?


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> From where to where?


Usrael to Pakistan.. I knew about their deals with China ( not confirmed though from China as they are considered Western propaganda), but Pakistan!? There are no evidences.. Maybe you can shed some light about it.. not too deep just some light..


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## SQ8

The SC said:


> Usrael to Pakistan.. I knew about their deals with China ( not confirmed though from China as they are considered Western propaganda), but Pakistan!? There are no evidences.. Maybe you xan shed some light about it.. not too deep just some light..


1990s. Ring laser Gyros, Avionics spares, engine spares for F-16s. 
Flight computers for UAVs, infact almost all early Pakistani UAV's that had flight computers came from either Elbit or IAI.
IDS lived on them.

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## dropkix

Using an engine common to the JF 17 thunder is a brilliant design concept in my opinion and I also want to add that fighter jets are pretty much the coolest vehicle humans have ever designed I love fighter jets [emoji178]


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> 1990s. Ring laser Gyros, Avionics spares, engine spares for F-16s.
> Flight computers for UAVs, infact almost all early Pakistani UAV's that had flight computers came from either Elbit or IAI.
> IDS lived on them.


*Pakistan Denies Receiving Military Equipment From Israel *
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.529120

The other though is obviously, what will you do to demean another or other nations who do not want to recognize you and consider you as an enemy? You would want to create havoc and stir trouble between the people and their governments and military.. Which we have seen in many instance..
Just a thought!


----------



## Falcon26

The SC said:


> *Pakistan Denies Receiving Military Equipment From Israel *
> http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.529120
> 
> The other though is obviously, what will you do to demean another or other nations who do not want to recognize you and consider you as an enemy? You would want to create havoc and stir trouble between the people and their governments and military.. Which we have seen in many instance..
> Just a thought!



The Haaretz report is probably true. There are many documented examples of Pakistan and Israel clandestinely doing deals. There's no harm in that but it carries diplomatic repercussions which is why both nations continue to deny.


----------



## araz

The SC said:


> *Pakistan Denies Receiving Military Equipment From Israel *
> http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.529120
> 
> The other though is obviously, what will you do to demean another or other nations who do not want to recognize you and consider you as an enemy? You would want to create havoc and stir trouble between the people and their governments and military.. Which we have seen in many instance..
> Just a thought!


The F16 spares were a widely known thing. On the surface both governments will deny the issue as diplomatically it would be unsavoury as other posters have pointed out.
A

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## messiach

OK, possible. 



Oscar said:


> Please do not misconstrue my inference on information as indicating that IAI engineers sat in Chengdu or anything of that sort. I am referring to information sharing , idea sharing and so on which was very much a monetary transaction.
> 
> I am not questioning your knowledge or involvement, but lets not discount that for many years despite our vehement opposition to Israel; various spare parts and even knowledge has been transferred to us(_via channels_) as pure monetary transaction.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

Falcon26 said:


> The Haaretz report is probably true. There are many documented examples of Pakistan and Israel clandestinely doing deals. There's no harm in that but it carries diplomatic repercussions which is why both nations continue to deny.


There are no facts.The United States by report Iraq bring down into the ISIS.The report is a bitch.


----------



## WarFariX

hi could someone provide me a chinese source which says that j31 will enter production by 2019 or 2020 plz


----------



## MystryMan

Daniel808 said:


> WS-13 IPE Engine + 3D Printing Technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannot wait to see, this beast with PAF Colour


Is there any difference between WS13E and WS13IPE? @wanglaokan


----------



## WarFariX

good question @MystryMan


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## 帅的一匹

MystryMan said:


> Is there any difference between WS13E and WS13IPE? @wanglaokan


IPE means increased performance engine, which is totally bullshit. Shorter life span for bigger thrust. I think the current engine is till WS13A, and Ws13E is the final target. There is no WS13 IPE. Only in fancy dream.

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## Daniel808

MystryMan said:


> Is there any difference between WS13E and WS13IPE? @wanglaokan



IPE stand for Improved Performance Engine.
FC-31 V2.0 that flying yesterday use WS-13E Engine.
IPE is what we called it.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Current there is no demand of FC31 from PLAAF, so AVIC is in no hurry to spare resource on improving WS13 engine. Unless PAF presicribe the specification and engine performance! The status of FC31 is very embarrassed cause it just a programs funded by AVIC it's own. If Pakistan don't plunge in, the project might be tough to make an ends meet. It need investor. PAF still study the project, yet to make decision.


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## Daniel808

wanglaokan said:


> IPE means increased performance engine, which is totally bullshit. Shorter life span for bigger thrust. I think the current engine is till WS13A, and Ws13E is the final target. There is no WS13 IPE. Only in fancy dream.



You are wrong.
The one in FC-31 V 2.0 that flying yesterday is WS-13E/IPE not WS-13A.


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## 帅的一匹

Daniel808 said:


> You are wrong.
> The one in FC-31 V 2.0 that flying yesterday is WS-13E/IPE not WS-13A.


No official confirmation yet.


----------



## Daniel808

wanglaokan said:


> No official confirmation yet.



Yes, not yet. but soon...
Huitong, the one of the most reliable source for Chinese Aviation already stated that.

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## 帅的一匹

Daniel808 said:


> Yes, not yet. but soon...
> Huitong, the one of the most reliable source for Chinese Aviation already stated that.


If this is true, then a good news for both China and Pakistan. Means FC31 already has potential customers.

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> No official confirmation yet.


officially confirmed yesterday bro

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> If this is true, then a good news for both China and Pakistan. Means FC31 already has potential customers.


could u plz pl pl translate this pic :-D


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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> officially confirmed yesterday bro


Source?


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## MystryMan

[QUOTE="MarvellousThunder@PDC, post: 9042233, member: hi could someone provide me a chinese source which says that j31 will enter production by 2019 or 2020 plz[/QUOTE]
If subsystems from J20 can b incorporated (scaled down version) then production version can b achieved in 2019-20 timeframe IMHO. @MarvellousThunder@PDC[/USER


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## 帅的一匹

MystryMan said:


> [QUOTE="MarvellousThunder@PDC, post: 9042233, member: 1hi could someone provide me a chinese source which says that j31 will enter production by 2019 or 2020 plz


If subsystems from J20 can b incorporated (scaled down version) then production version can b achieved in 2019-20 timeframe IMHO. @MarvellousThunder@PDC[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it could be delivered before year 2020, as long as PAF pushes SAC.

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> If this is true, then a good news for both China and Pakistan. Means FC31 already has potential customers.


could i translate this whole pic plz....i once saw an eng version of this pic too


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## mdmm

Did Pakistan Signed agreement with China to get J-31 planes??
When Will Pakistan get J-31 from China ?


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## Mugwop

mdmm said:


> Did Pakistan Signed agreement with China to get J-31 planes??
> When Will Pakistan get J-31 from China ?


No news of agreement but if PAF decides to buy them then maybe we can get them around 2020


----------



## Incog_nito

I think now everything will be Chinese in Pakistan


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## 帅的一匹

Oxair Online said:


> I think now everything will be Chinese in Pakistan


It USA isolate Pakistan and side with India to contain China. Yankees betrayed Pakistan at first. The market is open, USA can sell F35 to Pakistan! No one stops you. Just guess what India reaction if USA sell F35A to PAF, middle finger to yankees.Anyway, even India doesn't want USA cheap cheap F16V assembly line cause they do know what hide inside USA's skin.

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> It USA isolate Pakistan and side with India to contain China. Yankees betrayed Pakistan at first. The market is open, USA can sell F35 to Pakistan! No one stops you. Just guess what India reaction if USA sell F35A to PAF, middle finger to yankees.Anyway, even India doesn't want USA cheap cheap F16V assembly line cause they do know what hide inside USA's skin.


bro i am asking you soooo many times , translate that j31 poster and tell what it says about mass production


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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> bro i am asking you soooo many times , translate that j31 poster and tell what it says about mass production


Can you post up the picture, I can't see it. I will try to translate it.


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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> Can you post up the picture, I can't see it. I will try to translate it.


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## 帅的一匹

It says:
1. High viability: multi spectra, wide frequency band，high performance stealthy design, low vulnerability design, high ECM ability.
2. Situation awareness: AESA and many other sensor equipment.
3.12 hang points(6 at bay, 6 at wing stations), 8 tons payload(2 tons at bay, 6 tons at wing station).
4. High performance domestic engine equipped to ensure high manuverabity, the performance adjacent to most other 5th gen fighters.
5. It's had 1250 KM combat radius( I guess assumed when carry weapons only in weapon bay status), air refueling capable.
6. Long Life span, high reliability, maintenance friendly-oriented, high sortie rate, healthy management system placed.
7. Low life circle cost.

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## Jammer

http://www.dawn.com/news/1304599/ch...ype-aiming-to-end-wests-monopoly-in-warplanes


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## Wolf

Jammer said:


> http://www.dawn.com/news/1304599/ch...ype-aiming-to-end-wests-monopoly-in-warplanes


So when is serial production expected to start?


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## 帅的一匹

Wolf said:


> So when is serial production expected to start?


At least need or build extra four/ five prototype to test, I think before year 2020.

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## The SC

wanglaokan said:


> It says:
> 1. High viability: multi spectra, wide frequency band，high performance stealthy design, low vulnerability design, high ECM ability.
> 2. Situation awareness: AESA and many other sensor equipment.
> 3.12 hang points(6 at bay, 6 at wing stations), 8 tons payload(2 tons at bay, 6 tons at wing station).
> 4. High performance domestic engine equipped to ensure high manuverabity, the performance adjacent to most other 5th gen fighters.
> 5. It's had 1250 KM combat radius( I guess assumed when carry weapons only in weapon bay status), air refueling capable.
> 6. Long Life span, high reliability, maintenance friendly-oriented, high sortie rate, healthy management system placed.
> 7. Low life circle cost.


And the cost is around 70 million $..Less than Rafale, Eurofighter and F-35..

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## hotstone

FC-31 *II *took its first flight in Shenyang

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## The SC

Rare image of FC-31





New FC-31 design in IDEX 2017

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## Kabotar

SDS1 said:


> lol, if PAK have any capability to buy, operate and maintain F35? last time they want funds form US for F-16 purchase. Half of their weapons come from US Aids.


Yes half of our weapons come from 300 million military aid. DUMB A*S

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## khanasifm

Folks need To pay attention to atticates on this forum 

Admin please address the lack of it 

Thanks


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## LeGenD

The SC said:


> And the cost is around 70 million $..Less than Rafale, Eurofighter and F-35..


One thing I understand from my purchases of electronic items is that if price gap is huge, something is amiss in the much cheaper item.

A high quality product, be it Chinese or American, will never be cheap.

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## Kabotar

SDS1 said:


> View attachment 378599
> 
> 
> View attachment 378600


https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/tri...7-obama-proposes-860m-aid-for-pakistan/?amp=1






I was wrong it was 265 millions for capital expenditure. Most of the aid was and is operations related as Pakistan army will carry out operations and US will reimburse part of it. Last year close to half of the aid was withheld by defense department. 

It is foolish for people to think that Pakistan who did multi billion$ deal with China for subs could not arrange extra$400 mil for Jets.

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## ziaulislam

SDS1 said:


> View attachment 378599
> 
> 
> View attachment 378600


all of the aid has gone for funding military operation on western boarder, Pakistan has deployed 80,000 troops, if usa stops fund, just by cutting our operations in half would be able to counter the funds stopped, last year army spent over 100 billion on western boarder operations

even so this is less than 8% of total military budget

last time we paid for all f-16s, it was 3 billion dollars deal


----------



## The SC

LeGenD said:


> One thing I understand from my purchases of electronic items is that if price gap is huge, something is amiss in the much cheaper item.
> 
> A high quality product, be it Chinese or American, will never be cheap.


That was something of the past, you are talking about a cheap low Q product vs an expensive high Q product, it does not apply anymore to the recent world realities.. Where one can by a high Q Lexus automobile for almost half the price of the same category BMW or Mercedes..
In the latest news the price of the F-35 has been lowered to less than 100 million $, without those huge profit margins it should be around 80 million $, the price for the latest SU-35 fully equipped is also around 70 million $, are these all cheap quality?
I am pretty sure that you also know about the difference in wages between China and the US or Europe..


----------



## HRK

SDS1 said:


> ..........




https://defence.pk/threads/navy-gets-only-10pc-of-defence-budget.406897/page-4#post-7848653
https://defence.pk/threads/race-beg...topping-10-billion.381056/page-3#post-7276444
https://defence.pk/threads/civil-nu...ospects-and-consequences.413475/#post-7999828


----------



## Kabotar

SDS1 said:


> http://www.dawn.com/news/1261205
> 
> read this .. u cant even buy 8 planes by yourself ....
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1261205
> cant pay for 8 planes ...as of now
> 
> 
> 
> You people want someone else PAY you to secure your own country...


Again your small brain can't comprehend the difference between WANT and CAN. 

https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/tri...y-pakistan-eight-new-attack-submarines/?amp=1

We don't give a fvck how they manage their books our deal was $35 mil/plane not $90 mil/plane. For a plane which will be largely used for air superiority cause US doesn't sell us SOW. In the end of the day 8 Jets will unlikely change the balance of war specially when we can raise a whole squadron with the same money of JF-17 with AESA,advance avionics and maybe even PL-15 which is giving US nightmares. 

We are not fools like our neighbor who paid close to $250 mil for a plane and it's armaments and seven years worth of support. French knew Indians were desperate not for the Jets but to save face and took them for a ride of their life. 

Lastly I know it is difficult for you to understand simple things but let me reiterate THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES. 

One more thing this is FC-31 thread stay on topic.

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## Akasa

Interesting... apparently a model of the *third FC-31 prototype* will be making an appearance at the 2017 Paris Airshow.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting... apparently a model of the *third FC-31 prototype* will be making an appearance at the 2017 Paris Airshow.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600




Ohhh ... again waiting until June 19th to June 25th 2017 !

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Ohhh ... again waiting until June 19th to June 25th 2017 !



Seems like somebody needs a vacation (and it isn't me).

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Seems like somebody needs a vacation (and it isn't me).



Indeed ... I'm in eager need for vacation. During the last three weeks I was correcting the Chemistry exams of my pupils and right thereafter we are preparing my brother's wedding, which will occur this weekend. ... and now I was caught by the flu. So I'm right now really in desperate need for vacation. 

But I read somewhere large doses of full-size, high-resolution images showing most modern Chinese military aircraft will also help.

Deino

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Indeed ... I'm in eager need for vacation. During the last three weeks I was correcting the Chemistry exams of my pupils and right thereafter we are preparing my brother's wedding, which will occur this weekend. ... and now I was caught by the flu. So I'm right now really in desperate need for vacation.
> 
> But I read somewhere large doses of full-size, high-resolution images showing most modern Chinese military aircraft will also help.
> 
> Deino



Congratulations to your brother! And I hope you recover from the bug. 

I'm also waiting for 4K sized photos of PT-3, but I'm sure Paris will send its love.

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## MystryMan

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting... apparently a model of the *third FC-31 prototype* will be making an appearance at the 2017 Paris Airshow.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600


The pt-3 will b a new prototype or the one that flew last December?


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## Akasa

MystryMan said:


> The pt-3 will b a new prototype or the one that flew last December?



A "third prototype" implies that it's not the V2.0, but it's up in the air.


----------



## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> Indeed ... I'm in eager need for vacation. During the last three weeks I was correcting the Chemistry exams of my pupils and right thereafter we are preparing my brother's wedding, which will occur this weekend. ... and now I was caught by the flu. So I'm right now really in desperate need for vacation.
> 
> But I read somewhere large doses of full-size, high-resolution images showing most modern Chinese military aircraft will also help.
> 
> Deino


Specially j10c


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## Deino

Readerdefence said:


> Specially j10c




Ohh, not only ! J-10C indeed esp. in full serials, the same for J-16s, but I think - maybe then in a higher dose - FC-31V2-images or additional LRIP-J-20s are fine too.

Not to forget, a Y-20 + WS-20 !

Deino

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Ohh, not only ! J-10C indeed esp. in full serials, the same for J-16s, but I think - maybe then in a higher dose - FC-31V2-images or additional LRIP-J-20s are fine too.
> 
> Not to forget, a Y-20 + WS-20 !
> 
> Deino


You can call China Defence department to send you some picture, maybe they will consider it from humanitarian perspective.

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## Deino

Hey, a brilliant idea !


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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> Ohh, not only ! J-10C indeed esp. in full serials, the same for J-16s, but I think - maybe then in a higher dose - FC-31V2-images or additional LRIP-J-20s are fine too.
> 
> Not to forget, a Y-20 + WS-20 !
> 
> Deino


Don't worry I'm closely following this on sinodefence

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## ChineseToTheBone

Speaking of the Sino Defence Forum, the confirmation e-mail for me never arrived no matter how many times I tried requesting for a resend for some reason. It has been especially frustrating since I plan on posting The Military Balance 2017 report from IISS there.

Back on topic, could PT-3 actually be what is currently know as V2.0? After all, the new incorrect model of the plane that we have seen at IDEX 2017 might have been PT-2.

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## Akasa

Pakistan's recent announcement of an indigenous 5th generation aircraft program *could* be an indication that it has officially joined the FC-31 project, either as a co-funder or even possibly as a partner. Although co-funding the development of the FC-31 is more expensive than purchasing the jet off-the-shelf, it allows Pakistan to have a say in the IPR & sales of the FC-31.

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## Deino

ChineseToTheBone said:


> ...After all, the new incorrect model of the plane that we have seen at IDEX 2017 might have been PT-2.




But why is it then numbered '31001' ??? IMO the simplest explanation is still it is a plain inaccurate model.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

pakeye said:


> Good Wishes for your wishes
> i tink. twin engine fighter is not in list of PAF


why?


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

J31有点小。最新国产发动机正在测试。


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## 帅的一匹

CHINA83NEWS said:


> J31有点小。最新国产发动机正在测试。


有点小啥意思？


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

wanglaokan said:


> 有点小啥意思？


我是沈阳的哦。就是说J31正在改大。

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## 帅的一匹

CHINA83NEWS said:


> 我是沈阳的哦。就是说J31正在改大。


Good news! Enlarged fuselage of FC31 means more range, and will be on our carrier!


----------



## Kabotar

wanglaokan said:


> Good news! Enlarged fuselage of FC31 means more range, and will be on our carrier!


Like to see side bays too


----------



## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Good news! Enlarged fuselage of FC31 means more range, and will be on our carrier!




Pardon, but given a "translator" this post above only mentions that he "is at Shenyang and that the J31 is modified" ?? Could You please help me out with an explanation, on where You translate it as "Enlarged fuselage"?

And by the way, when will it fly again and when will we see it again ???

Thanks in advance,
Deino


----------



## Cool_Soldier

As per Air chief, Pakistan is negotiating with 2-3 countries for purchasing Fifth Generation Air Craft.
But only three Platform are under development / operational
USA: F22/ F35 Export version
Russia: T50 Project is shared with India
China: J20/J31 Export version

Only Possible talk could be with China for J31 and to some extent with USA for F 35


----------



## CHI RULES

Cool_Soldier said:


> As per Air chief, Pakistan is negotiating with 2-3 countries for purchasing Fifth Generation Air Craft.
> But only three Platform are under development / operational
> USA: F22/ F35 Export version
> Russia: T50 Project is shared with India
> China: J20/J31 Export version
> 
> Only Possible talk could be with China for J31 and to some extent with USA for F 35


Pak chances to get F35 are less than 0% we even can't get V upgrade for our F16s.

Pak may go for collaboration in Fc-31 production but it can;t be started in few years domestically as I honestly don't think PAF/ Kamra so far has capabilities to build such hitech Jet. May be in next 5-10 Years. Till then perhaps we may go for assembling and getting expertise through next blocks of JF17.

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## MystryMan

wanglaokandimension323837 said:


> Good news! Enlarged fuselage of FC31 means more range, and will be on our carrier!


Enlarged in which dimension(s)?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Pardon, but given a "translator" this post above only mentions that he "is at Shenyang and that the J31 is modified" ?? Could You please help me out with an explanation, on where You translate it as "Enlarged fuselage"?
> 
> And by the way, when will it fly again and when will we see it again ???
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


He said original FC31 prototype is too small, SAC had started to enlarge the fuselage of FC31. It is compatible with the Navy's request of long combat radius of 5th gen carrier borne fighters' solution. The navy doesn't want it short-legged.


----------



## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> He said original FC31 prototype is too small, SAC had started to enlarge the fuselage of FC31. It is compatible with the Navy's request of long combat radius of 5th gen carrier borne fighters' solution. The navy doesn't want it short-legged.




Thanks ... but if the PLANAF requires a larger, heavy fighter and SAC enlarges the FC-31, it then would require a different engine (maybe WS-10 ??) ... what would be de fact a new fighter !


----------



## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Thanks ... but if the PLANAF requires a larger, heavy fighter and SAC enlarges the FC-31, it then would require a different engine (maybe WS-10 ??) ... what would be de fact a new fighter !


very likely, it seems get fun! I think China navy give SAC specification of what they want FC31 going to be. The possibility of induction is getting higher.


----------



## Akasa

CHINA83NEWS said:


> 我是沈阳的哦。就是说J31正在改大。



Hmm ... does this mean that the PLAN has selected the FC-31?



Deino said:


> Thanks ... but if the PLANAF requires a larger, heavy fighter and SAC enlarges the FC-31, it then would require a different engine (maybe WS-10 ??) ... what would be de fact a new fighter !



No; the navy variant of the FC-31 would most likely have enlarged wings (à la F-35C) but the same fuselage. If the J-20 were to become a naval fighter, it would too require enlarged wings/tails.


----------



## Readerdefence

SinoSoldier said:


> Hmm ... does this mean that the PLAN has selected the FC-31?
> 
> 
> 
> No; the navy variant of the FC-31 would most likely have enlarged wings (à la F-35C) but the same fuselage. If the J-20 were to become a naval fighter, it would too require enlarged wings/tails.


Enlarged wings mean then they have to be folded also


----------



## X_Killer

I have a question?
Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?

Waiting for a decent answer.
Thanks in advance


----------



## Arsalan

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance


These planes have electronic stealth, not optical stealth!! That is, they are difficult to track electronically via radars and sensors, not that they are difficult to "see" optically.

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## X_Killer

Arsalan said:


> These planes have electronic stealth, not optical stealth!! That is, they are difficult to track electronically via radars and sensors, not that they are difficult to "see" optically.


1. One should be physically fit first than we can think about its mental status.

2. Please share IR signature map , if you can

3. It can be easily shot down with portable or manually fired SAMs when clearly visible inside Enemy territory


----------



## Taygibay

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.



So as Arsalan said, these ACs are stealthy not invisible.
However, "seeing" a jet fighter in a pic on the tarmac is
not the same as seeing it in the sky 60+km away with fog.

To "see" further, radar was invented. It is against radar
that stealth in the usual meaning makes them hard to spot.

Galileo saw Jupiter's first 4 moons with a telescope, much
farther than any jet although much bigger too, 507 years ago.
Visual identification will always work, at least until we invent
light diffraction units that can withstand 9G and 30mike bullets.
Portable ones.

The best anti-seeing techniques as, offered above, center on
reducing heat ( engine and systems ) or masking it somehow.

Have a good day, Tay.

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## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance


Here's your answer, take a good look at it.....yup, it's your super duper PAK FA.

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## X_Killer

Windjammer said:


> Here's your answer, take a good look at it.....yup, it's your super duper PAK FA.
> 
> View attachment 389158


Please don't compare a mistake with another mistake.
It won't make a good sense.

Request you to elaborate the answer of my question sensible. I'm serious


----------



## Arsalan

X_Killer said:


> 1. One should be physically fit first than we can think about its mental status.
> 
> 2. Please share IR signature map , if you can
> 
> 3. It can be easily shot down with portable or manually fired SAMs when clearly visible inside Enemy territory



Are we talking planes or humans?
Please do some research on Stealth aspects and you will understand. 

IR Signature map was shared previously on this thread as far as i remember, you may have to dig that yourself and will unearth plenty of other useful things while doing the same.

Flying at the height that it does, it wont be visible to naked eye sir. I guess you are talking about the color/paint of the plane? That will be optimized for the plane to blend in.

Here, see this, do you think these are pieces of junk or do you say that they are *not visible optically?*

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## RoadRunner401

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance



Here is the pic of the JET in stealth mode

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## X_Killer

Arsalan said:


> Are we talking planes or humans?
> Please do some research on Stealth aspects and you will understand.
> 
> IR Signature map was shared previously on this thread as far as i remember, you may have to dig that yourself and will unearth plenty of other useful things while doing the same.
> 
> Flying at the height that it does, it wont be visible to naked eye sir. I guess you are talking about the color/paint of the plane? That will be optimized for the plane to blend in.
> 
> Here, see this, do you think these are pieces of junk or do you say that they are *not visible optically?*


With a dark black tail behind the jet makes it more easier to view with optical aid or even with a naked eyes.
These smoky tails allows enemies to pay attention towards it.
Rest upto you.



RoadRunner401 said:


> Here is the pic of the JET in stealth mode
> 
> View attachment 389162



Oh, nice
Please wake up 

As I previously requested , please stick with the topic and be serious


----------



## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> Please don't compare a mistake with another mistake.
> It won't make a good sense.
> 
> Request you to elaborate the answer of my question sensible. I'm serious


You mean something like how elsewhere you were comparing the Tejas mistake with JF-17 and instead calling the JF-17 a junk fighter.........

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## Arsalan

X_Killer said:


> With a dark black tail behind the jet makes it more easier to view with optical aid or even with a naked eyes.
> These smoky tails allows enemies to pay attention towards it.
> Rest upto you.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, nice
> Please wake up
> 
> As I previously requested , please stick with the topic and be serious


OJ!! So you are talking about the smoke?
Why beat about the bush then mate, you can come out and say it out loud!  No one is going to hurt you. 

Yes, the smoke trail is a problem but this is not the only plane to have faced this at initial stage of evolution. Also these are not visible as they are in these images taken as close shots. Flying and thousands of feet, there is no chance to spot the smoke from ground. Also remember that when one if looking for a smoke trail in the WHOLE sky full of sunshine and clouds and what not, it is essentially more than looking for a needle in a hay stack.

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## gambit

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance


There are many ways to perceive an object. Take a ball, for example.

If you hold the ball, then you are perceiving it thru direct 'skin to skin' contact.

If the ball is on the table and you are looking at it, then you are perceiving it thru a specific range of the electromagnetic spectrum.

The keyword here is 'perception'.

What everybody casually calls 'stealth' is technically correct as 'low radar observability' or 'low radar perceivable'.

With radar, you are perceiving the ball or the aircraft thru a specific but different range of the electromagnetic spectrum.







So an aircraft designed to be 'stealth' would be shaped to make perception difficult in the microwave range of the EM spectrum.

Hope that helped.

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## X_Killer

Windjammer said:


> You mean something like how elsewhere you were comparing the Tejas mistake with JF-17 and instead calling the JF-17 a junk fighter.........


Excuse never be a answer

Leave it, if you Don't have the answer
Good day



Arsalan said:


> OJ!! So you are talking about the smoke?
> Why beat about the bush then mate, you can come out and say it out loud!  No one is going to hurt you.
> 
> Yes, the smoke trail is a problem but this is not the only plane to have faced this at initial stage of evolution. Also these are not visible as they are in these images taken as close shots. Flying and thousands of feet, there is no chance to spot the smoke from ground. Also remember that when one if looking for a smoke trail in the WHOLE sky full of sunshine and clouds and what not, it is essentially more than looking for a needle in a hay stack.


Yup, I usually saw this smoke trail on migs but they are not STEALTHY , so that is why we can put them away from stealth fighter category.
There is a well-known quote " hope for the best, Prepare for the worst". But if if we only think about favourable climate ALLL tha time than it will not going to be possible



gambit said:


> There are many ways to perceive an object. Take a ball, for example.
> 
> If you hold the ball, then you are perceiving it thru direct 'skin to skin' contact.
> 
> If the ball is on the table and you are looking at it, then you are perceiving it thru a specific range of the electromagnetic spectrum.
> 
> The keyword here is 'perception'.
> 
> What everybody casually calls 'stealth' is technically correct as 'low radar observability' or 'low radar perceivable'.
> 
> With radar, you are perceiving the ball or the aircraft thru a specific but different range of the electromagnetic spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So an aircraft designed to be 'stealth' would be shaped to make perception difficult in the microwave range of the EM spectrum.
> 
> Hope that helped.



This is what I can call a "decent" answer.

But 
All current stealth aircraft were designed to counter X-Band radars, but those shapes are getting ineffective if a radar operates in S-band and even more ineffective when the radar operates in L-band. The reason for the stealth aircraft to be detected is the wavelength of the radar, a radar operating in L-band produces wavelengths with comparable size to the aircraft itself and should exhibit scattering in the resonance region rather than the optical region, so that most of the existing stealth aircraft will turn from invisible, to visible.

It will be difficult to detect those STEALTH Aircrafts from another Aircraft is difficult but it will be quite easier to detect them from Ground based L-BAND and S-band Radars & Also by airborne RADARS


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## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> Excuse never be a answer
> 
> Leave it, if you Don't have the answer
> Good day



Oh i do have the answer, but it's you jumping the gun by comparing an RD93 powered prototype with some mature platforms. Firstly this engine is well known to have smoke issues, MiG-29 is a prime example.
The JF-17 sufferers from same problem but in it's last display the smoke was totally absent so much so that onlookers were thinking that it must have had a newer engine installed, however the display pilot disclosed that an aircraft emitting smoke also has to do with atmospheric environment.. @gambit

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## Arsalan

X_Killer said:


> Excuse never be a answer
> 
> Leave it, if you Don't have the answer
> Good day
> 
> 
> Yup, I usually saw this smoke trail on migs but they are not STEALTHY , so that is why we can put them away from stealth fighter category.
> There is a well-known quote " hope for the best, Prepare for the worst". But if if we only think about favourable climate ALLL tha time than it will not going to be possible
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I can call a "decent" answer.
> 
> But
> All current stealth aircraft were designed to counter X-Band radars, but those shapes are getting ineffective if a radar operates in S-band and even more ineffective when the radar operates in L-band. The reason for the stealth aircraft to be detected is the wavelength of the radar, a radar operating in L-band produces wavelengths with comparable size to the aircraft itself and should exhibit scattering in the resonance region rather than the optical region, so that most of the existing stealth aircraft will turn from invisible, to visible.
> 
> It will be difficult to detect those STEALTH Aircrafts from another Aircraft is difficult but it will be quite easier to detect them from Ground based L-BAND and S-band Radars & Also by airborne RADARS




LOLZ!!
You are talking about somke and optical visibility, he told you about radar signature and electronic visibility (same as mentioned in first post) but his is a decent answer and mine is a baseless argument because he carries a US flag while i carry a green one. Cool, i get what you are looking for. Sorry, call me uneducated but i do not have anything else to add.

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## X_Killer

Windjammer said:


> Oh i do have the answer, but it's you jumping the gun by comparing an RD93 powered prototype with some mature platforms. Firstly this engine is well known to have smoke issues, MiG-29 is a prime example.
> The JF-17 sufferers from same problem but in it's last display the smoke was totally absent so much so that onlookers were thinking that it must have had a newer engine installed, however the display pilot disclosed that an aircraft emitting smoke also has to do with atmospheric environment.. @gambit



I know it RD-93 produce more smoke comparable with other Engines . Also I found the same issue (smoke) in J-20. I'm not sharing them here due to different thread but I can share if someone raise a request.

Back to the point, how can we call these FIGHTER AIRCRAFTS a genuine "STEALTH Aircraft " with smoking trails.



Arsalan said:


> LOLZ!!
> You are talking about somke and optical visibility, he told you about radar signature and electronic visibility (same as mentioned in first post) but his is a decent answer and mine is a baseless argument because he carries a US flag while i carry a green one. Cool, i get what you are looking for. Sorry, call me uneducated but i do not have anything else to add.


Dude, Don't worry.
I'm not Racist. I need a genuine answer.
I know none of the Aircraft is completely stealthy and superior forever. But we should know about pros and cons About all familiar machines


----------



## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> I know it RD-93 produce more smoke comparable with other Engines . Also I found the same issue (smoke) in J-20. I'm not sharing them here due to different thread but I can share if someone raise a request.
> 
> Back to the point, how can we call these FIGHTER AIRCRAFTS a genuine "STEALTH Aircraft " with smoking trails.


Seems you haven't exactly caught the idea of what stealth in essence means, i doubt it has anything to do with a naked eye, besides with newer engines becoming available, the smoke issue would be addressed.

*stealth*
(chiefly of aircraft) designed in accordance with technology which makes detection by radar or sonar difficult.

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## Sully3

X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance



photoshopped images. indians getting excited for no reason. sit back down !

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## gambit

X_Killer said:


> But
> All current stealth aircraft were designed to counter X-Band radars, but those shapes are getting ineffective if a radar operates in S-band and even more ineffective when the radar operates in L-band. The reason for the stealth aircraft to be detected is the wavelength of the radar, a radar operating in L-band produces wavelengths with comparable size to the aircraft itself and should exhibit scattering in the resonance region rather than the optical region, so that most of the existing stealth aircraft will turn from invisible, to visible.
> 
> It will be difficult to detect those STEALTH Aircrafts from another Aircraft is difficult but it will be quite easier to detect them from Ground based L-BAND and S-band Radars & Also by airborne RADARS


The problem for longer wavelengths is decreasing target resolutions.

- Altitude
- Speed
- Heading
- Aspect angle

As the wavelengths gets longer, those above resolutions degrades.

There are three main wavelengths:

- Volume search: longest wavelengths
- Tracking
- Targeting: shortest wavelengths

Missiles always have the 'Targeting' wavelengths.

Using an airport as example. Volume search will help the traffic controllers sees the inbounds. Tracking is more focused and helps the controllers assign waiting altitudes. Targeting is when the controllers needs to focus on a single aircraft to help him land safely.

It is the targeting freqs that 'stealth' fighters are shaped against. You can see me, but you cannot shoot me.


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## X_Killer

gambit said:


> The problem for longer wavelengths is decreasing target resolutions.
> 
> - Altitude
> - Speed
> - Heading
> - Aspect angle
> 
> As the wavelengths gets longer, those above resolutions degrades.
> 
> There are three main wavelengths:
> 
> - Volume search: longest wavelengths
> - Tracking
> - Targeting: shortest wavelengths
> 
> Missiles always have the 'Targeting' wavelengths.
> 
> Using an airport as example. Volume search will help the traffic controllers sees the inbounds. Tracking is more focused and helps the controllers assign waiting altitudes. Targeting is when the controllers needs to focus on a single aircraft to help him land safely.
> 
> It is the targeting freqs that 'stealth' fighters are shaped against. You can see me, but you cannot shoot me.


@Sully3
“Stealth is ‘delayed detection’ and that delay is getting shorter. SAM (Surface-to-Air Missile) radars are shifting their frequencies into lower frequency bands

When it comes to S-400, the fact remains that even if Russian low-frequency search and acquisitions radars can detect and track tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft such as the F-22 or F-35, fire control radars operating in C, X and Ku bands cannot paint low observable (LO) jets except at very close ranges. Stealth is not—and never has been—invisibility, but it does offer greatly delayed detection so that a fighter or bomber and can engage a target and leave before the enemy has time to react.

In case of US' B-2 &B-21, to counter lower frequency radars, a larger flying-wing stealth aircraft design like the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit or the B-21 Raider—which lacks many of the features that cause a resonance effect.
If we compare J-20 & J-31 with F-22 and F-35 , both lag behind in many terms of stealth.

Hence I can say that, with high end tech, if I can see you than I can also track and destroy you.


----------



## DARING

ideal choice for pak


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## Kompromat

More pictures please.


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## Fawadqasim1

gambit said:


> The problem for longer wavelengths is decreasing target resolutions.
> 
> - Altitude
> - Speed
> - Heading
> - Aspect angle
> 
> As the wavelengths gets longer, those above resolutions degrades.
> 
> There are three main wavelengths:
> 
> - Volume search: longest wavelengths
> - Tracking
> - Targeting: shortest wavelengths
> 
> Missiles always have the 'Targeting' wavelengths.
> 
> Using an airport as example. Volume search will help the traffic controllers sees the inbounds. Tracking is more focused and helps the controllers assign waiting altitudes. Targeting is when the controllers needs to focus on a single aircraft to help him land safely.
> 
> It is the targeting freqs that 'stealth' fighters are shaped against. You can see me, but you cannot shoot me.


there can/must be some tactics which mid tech air forces can use against them. If I can see you I can get you eg point defence interceptions can be scrambled against them with irst and dual sensors iir missiles just a thought what do you say sir


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## gambit

Fawadqasim1 said:


> there can/must be some tactics which mid tech air forces can use against them. If I can see you I can get you eg point defence interceptions can be scrambled against them with irst and dual sensors iir missiles just a thought what do you say sir


Currently, all tactics that claimed to be effective against 'stealth' are nothing more than speculations. For starter, you can safely assume that the US have thought a great deal about those tactics simply because we have '4th gen' platforms to test against 'stealth'.

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## nomi007

we need to take 1 j-31 for testing and evaluation purposes


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## HannibalBarca

No new news about FC-31? Articles? Pics? ...


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## ChineseToTheBone

HannibalBarca said:


> No new news about FC-31? Articles? Pics? ...


Supposedly we have to wait until the Paris Air Show later this year in June for new pictures.


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## 帅的一匹

Saudi had invested heavily in FC31, we will see a robust machine in the future.

Pakistan may persuade Saudi invest in FC31, so PAF will be a direct benefoci art. It's a strategical collaboration.


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## salman-1

What's the source of Saudi investment in Fc-31


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## Fledgingwings

Nice Post


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## 帅的一匹

salman-1 said:


> What's the source of Saudi investment in Fc-31


Rumors flying all around in Chinese forum.

I guess Saudi Royal airforce and PAF will be customers of FC31.

With hell lots of investment , FC31 will be escalated to a whole new level.


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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> Saudi had invested heavily in FC31, we will see a robust machine in the future.
> 
> Pakistan may persuade Saudi invest in FC31, so PAF will be a direct benefoci art. It's a strategical collaboration.


Source ?



wanglaokan said:


> Rumors flying all around in Chinese forum.
> 
> I guess Saudi Royal airforce and PAF will be customers of FC31.
> 
> With hell lots of investment , FC31 will be escalated to a whole new level.


i somehow object that


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## 帅的一匹

China is one of the best friend of Saudi, Pakistan is even closer.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Source ?
> 
> 
> i somehow object that


Do you think the investment from Saudi will nothing to do with Pakistan? Definitely yes.


----------



## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> China is one of the best friend of Saudi, Pakistan is even closer.
> 
> 
> Do you think the investment from Saudi will nothing to do with Pakistan? Definitely yes.


My reason is something else. Cant tell


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## 帅的一匹

Without Saudi's investment, FC31 project will die for sure.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> My reason is something else. Cant tell


What is that?


----------



## Hassan Guy

This thread will probably go on for another decade, it'll be a lolz moment when the jet still isn't bought by then.


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## WarFariX

Hassan Guy said:


> This thread will probably go on for another decade, it'll be a lolz moment when the jet still isn't bought by then.


han F-35 khareedenge na xD

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## Hassan Guy

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> han F-35 khareedenge na xD


probably a better aircraft at the current moment of time.


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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> han F-35 khareedenge na xD


What you say?


----------



## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> What you say?


was joking with him



Hassan Guy said:


> probably a better aircraft at the current moment of time.


jaise ke


----------



## 帅的一匹

If China government doesn't invest much in FC31, Pakistan doesn't have enough cash to invest as well. Maybe only Saudi will invest it. I also believe the Chinese navy need FC31, but the number is not enough to bring the cost down. Economy of scale.

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## ChineseToTheBone

wanglaokan said:


> I also believe the Chinese navy need FC31, but the number is not enough to bring the cost down.



Concept art of a naval variant for aircraft carriers.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Concept art of a naval variant for aircraft carriers.


Damn beautiful, the future is brilliant for China and Pakistan.

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## Fawadqasim1

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Concept art of a naval variant for aircraft carriers.


Its a beauty

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## 帅的一匹

Steady and pragmatic, Chinese and Pakistanis have the same positive characteristic.

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## The Accountant

wanglaokan said:


> Steady and pragmatic, Chinese and Pakistanis have the same positive characteristic.



I think Pakistan needs to invest in it along with KSA ...

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## 帅的一匹

Just image Chinese navy induct 300 J31, Pakistan induct 100 plus and Saudi induct a hundred. This baby will have a great future. The cost will be low.

Who is India?

4 more carriers with 60 units of J31 per, including the backup. At least need 300 units.





The Accountant said:


> I think Pakistan needs to invest in it along with KSA ...


Sure, you must.

It's a feast, closest friend shall not miss it.

I strongly believe PAF had get involved in FC31 project.

I think PLAAF shall also induct 300 FC31 as J20 is too expansive to go beyond 500 units.

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## Hassan Guy

The Accountant said:


> I think Pakistan needs to invest in it along with KSA ...


The thing is the KSA will obviously go for fighter jets from the US and Europe maybe Russia.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Hassan Guy said:


> The thing is the KSA will obviously go for fighter jets from the US and Europe maybe Russia.


USA is not selling. f35 to KSA, as KSA is on the verge of the circle of trust. Europe has no 5th gen to offer. Zero chance of getting weapon from Russia as they are supporting Syria government. The only possibility is FC31. KSA knows it's time to diversify its military procurement so that USA won't take them for granted. It's strategical move not just a weapon procurement.

Even KSA didn't invest, China and Pakistan will keep push the project to its final success. We welcome KSA's investment, but it's not indispensable.

KSA's looking east policy will make Benifits for them in the end.

It was Pakistan that China and KSA could become friend.

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## Muhammad Omar

Hassan Guy said:


> The thing is the KSA will obviously go for fighter jets from the US and Europe maybe Russia.



If there's a may be in your post then Add MAY BE CHINA


----------



## Hassan Guy

Muhammad Omar said:


> If there's a may be in your post then Add MAY BE CHINA


UAE is buying Su-35. So more might buy from Russia.


----------



## Fawadqasim1

Hassan Guy said:


> The thing is the KSA will obviously go for fighter jets from the US and Europe maybe Russia.


How so?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Hassan Guy said:


> UAE is buying Su-35. So more might buy from Russia.



hmm Link They are more tilted towards India now


----------



## Hassan Guy

Fawadqasim1 said:


> How so?


Because that is exactly what they have done.






KSA may buy the aircraft once its actually ready(possibly), though I doubt they would fund its development.


----------



## Fawadqasim1

Hassan Guy said:


> Because that is exactly what they have done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KSA may buy the aircraft once its actually ready(possibly), though I doubt they would fund its development.





Hassan Guy said:


> Because that is exactly what they have done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KSA may buy the aircraft once its actually ready(possibly), though I doubt they would fund its development.


Why? please elaborate


----------



## Hassan Guy

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Why? please elaborate


They've already spent billions on fighters that haven't been delivered yet.


----------



## Fawadqasim1

wanglaokan said:


> USA is not selling. f35 to KSA, as KSA is on the verge of the circle of trust. Europe has no 5th gen to offer. Zero chance of getting weapon from Russia as they are supporting Syria government. The only possibility is FC31. KSA knows it's time to diversify its military procurement so that USA won't take them for granted. It's strategical move not just a weapon procurement.
> 
> Even KSA didn't invest, China and Pakistan will keep push the project to its final success. We welcome KSA's investment, but it's not indispensable.
> 
> KSA's looking east policy will make Benifits for them in the end.
> 
> It was Pakistan that China and KSA could become friend.


Absolutely wang bro you have saved me from typing this

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

wanglaokan said:


> USA is not selling. f35 to KSA, as KSA is on the verge of the circle of trust. Europe has no 5th gen to offer. Zero chance of getting weapon from Russia as they are supporting Syria government. The only possibility is FC31. KSA knows it's time to diversify its military procurement so that USA won't take them for granted. It's strategical move not just a weapon procurement.
> 
> Even KSA didn't invest, China and Pakistan will keep push the project to its final success. We welcome KSA's investment, but it's not indispensable.
> 
> KSA's looking east policy will make Benifits for them in the end.
> 
> It was Pakistan that China and KSA could become friend.







Pak is the landbridge between China and ME... traffic goes both ways. This goes back decades.

And there is of course Iran factor... besides SA wants to build local defence industry, including aviation. Just like UACVs...SA will cut the development cycle short and buy off aviation capability.

I am more interested in the cooperation between SA, Pak and China in this regard.. J31 can glue these together.

Look beyond just aircrafts... it is military-industrial alignment.

We, however, must excercise caution and let Time unravel mysteries.


I agree with you that PLAN will go for J31. If all plays out...we are looking at at least 700 fighters in the entire life cycle of this aircraft...that means 4 times as many engines.

Production of truly capable Chinese engine _en masse_ is the key here. J20 Tech will find its way into J31.


----------



## Fawadqasim1

Hassan Guy said:


> They've already spent billions on fighters that haven't been delivered yet.


Which ones


----------



## The Accountant

Hassan Guy said:


> The thing is the KSA will obviously go for fighter jets from the US and Europe maybe Russia.


US is not willing to provide 5th generation to saudia ... Russia will not as it means annoying Iran which is russia key ally in the region so only supplier with 5th generation is China ... KSA dont have any option ...


----------



## Hassan Guy

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Which ones


F-15's and Eurofighters.



The Accountant said:


> US is not willing to provide 5th generation to saudia ... Russia will not as it means annoying Iran which is russia key ally in the region so only supplier with 5th generation is China ... KSA dont have any option ...


Just wait till the Saudi's role over that paycheck.


----------



## 帅的一匹

The Accountant said:


> US is not willing to provide 5th generation to saudia ... Russia will not as it means annoying Iran which is russia key ally in the region so only supplier with 5th generation is China ... KSA dont have any option ...


China is the best option

We gave them ballistic missile, why can't 5th gen fighter.

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## HannibalBarca

wanglaokan said:


> China is the best option
> 
> We gave them ballistic missile, why can't 5th gen fighter.


the only...at this stage.


----------



## 帅的一匹

China's goal is become number one on this planet, we will strive for influence in KSA with USA at any cost. KSA need China and China need KSA.

KSA dare not bet his stake on USA only like used to be, he knows USA will sell him out any time at some points.


----------



## The Accountant

Hassan Guy said:


> F-15's and Eurofighters.
> 
> 
> Just wait till the Saudi's role over that paycheck.



Not this time us is moving away from KSA


----------



## 帅的一匹

A Christian America will trust a Muslim KSA? Never.


----------



## HannibalBarca

The Accountant said:


> Not this time us is moving away from KSA


it's mostly KSA who is moving away of US


----------



## The Accountant

HannibalBarca said:


> it's mostly KSA who is moving away of US


Thats good for the region as US has made alot of mess in the region ...


----------



## 帅的一匹

The Accountant said:


> Not this time us is moving away from KSA


Obama's compromising policy against Iran had pissed KSA off, it's KSA stay away from USA. With China rise, it's not surprise that China and KSA get closer. KSA need to ensure it has better tie with China than Iran.

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## The Accountant

wanglaokan said:


> Obama's compromising policy against Iran had pissed KSA off, it's KSA stay away from USA. With China rise, it's not surprise that China and KSA get closer. KSA need to ensure it has better tie with China than Iran.


You are right but i wish that somehow tentions should reduce between iran and KSA as it is best for region, muslim and humanity ...

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## 帅的一匹

China will keep a subtle balance between Iran and KSA, little bit tilted toward KSA.



The Accountant said:


> You are right but i wish that somehow tentions should reduce between iran and KSA as it is best for region, muslim and humanity ...


It fit in the regional interets.


----------



## khanasifm

http://www.janes.com/article/65359/new

features side-stick controls, a single reconfigurable large multifunction display (MFD), a wide head-up display (HUD) and a new helmet-mounted display similar to the Striker system produced by BAE Systems for use in the Eurofighter Typhoon.


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## Ultimate Weapon

The FC-31 may also use the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) KLJ-7A active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, also displayed for the first time at Airshow China, which is claimed to have a performance similar the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 AESA radar of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

If we are interested in this bird. Then most probably KLJ 7A will be selected for JF17 block 3.

And that would be the most logical move.

For link please refer to khanasifm's above post.


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## 帅的一匹

An Chinese military insider had disclosed today that FC31 had been chosen as new generation of carrier fighter. It means China and Pakistan will both induct FC31. Finally!

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## Path-Finder

wanglaokan said:


> An Chinese military insider had disclosed today that FC31 had been chosen as new generation of carrier fighter. It means China and Pakistan will both induct FC31. Finally!


so the FC31 wasn't really dead as it was lead to believe or lost interest to J20.


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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> so the FC31 wasn't really dead as it was lead to believe or lost interest to FC20.


FC-20 is history, we are directly going to 5th gen jet


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## Path-Finder

pakistanipower said:


> FC-20 is history, we are directly going to 5th gen jet


I meant J20


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## CHACHA"G"

FC-31 is more affordable bird , easy to operate , cost less and other advantages ,, China know that , that's Why they bring this bird this far , If they don't want it they might have killed the programme long ago, And no one will invest in a bird Just for International Market in current Geo Inv.........
China wont allow her enemies to find out about Her latest tech etc..............
I only want As much possible ToT on this bird and Cooperation with China for our own next Gen Bird.

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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> I meant J20


 sir currently J-20 not for export, it has a export bar by Chinese just like US F-22, the only option left for PAF is J-31


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## Path-Finder

pakistanipower said:


> sir currently J-20 not for export, it has a export bar by Chinese just like US F-22, the only option left for PAF is J-31


What i meant to say is J20 was going to be the frontline fighter for China. FC31 was facing a uncertain future as reports were indicating because it lost interest from the forces. But as it becomes the preferred carrier fighter the program is going to be receiving funding and the program will get the necessary tech developed as needed.

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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> What i meant to say is J20 was going to be the frontline fighter for China. FC31 was facing a uncertain future as reports were indicating because it lost interest from the forces. But as it becomes the preferred carrier fighter the program is going to be receiving funding and the program will get the necessary tech developed as needed.


Yes sir but it take time in my opinion J-31 will be ready in 2020-2022 for PAF

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## Muhammad Omar

wanglaokan said:


> An Chinese military insider had disclosed today that FC31 had been chosen as new generation of carrier fighter. It means China and Pakistan will both induct FC31. Finally!



Are you sure Bro Pakistan will Induct it and when any timeline??


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## 帅的一匹

Path-Finder said:


> What i meant to say is J20 was going to be the frontline fighter for China. FC31 was facing a uncertain future as reports were indicating because it lost interest from the forces. But as it becomes the preferred carrier fighter the program is going to be receiving funding and the program will get the necessary tech developed as needed.


It had started to bring in J20 technology. So the only customer for FC31 will be Pakistan as China have to prevent core information leakage.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Are you sure Bro Pakistan will Induct it and when any timeline??


All proves lead to FC31 induction by Chinese navy, and some insider also insinuate it. Timeline before year 2020.

Only Pakistan is worth of trusted when it comes to export of top line fighter like J31. If it goes to KSA, it must be a water down version. I can't expect Fc31's export to a third country in the near future, Pakistan comes first.

Also can't exclude PLAAF inducting FC31V2(like F35A), and V3(as photo leakage) for new carrier(like F35C). 90% of the components are interchangeable, means economy of scale. These days we have great news each day! Hah hah

I need to admit the stealthy feature of FC31 or RCS is even better than J20 by adopting a conventional fuselage setup(no canards).

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## XDescendantX

The Accountant said:


> I think Pakistan needs to invest in it along with KSA ...



Only if the pilots in KSA are Pakistani and the Chinese are allowed to build a military base in KSA to guarantee the enemy won't steal these awesome birds and reverse engineer them.


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## XDescendantX

MystryMan said:


> The pt-3 will b a new prototype or the one that flew last December?



It will be a mystery. 



X_Killer said:


> I have a question?
> Where is the STEALTH of this Aircraft, when one can even saw them with a naked eyes?
> 
> Waiting for a decent answer.
> Thanks in advance


You do realize the J-31 can be flown at night right? 



Hassan Guy said:


> This thread will probably go on for another decade, it'll be a lolz moment when the jet still isn't bought by then.



Hehe don't jinx us we want the J-31 ASAP!!


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## X_Killer

XDescendantX said:


> You do realize the J-31 can be flown at night right?



You mean, its not built for day flight.
Applaud for you


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## Fawadqasim1

wanglaokan said:


> An Chinese military insider had disclosed today that FC31 had been chosen as new generation of carrier fighter. It means China and Pakistan will both induct FC31. Finally!


Pakistan still need j16s.

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## The SC

wanglaokan said:


> An Chinese military insider had disclosed today that FC31 had been chosen as new generation of carrier fighter. It means China and Pakistan will both induct FC31. Finally!


China will develop a naval version of the FC-31 then..



Fawadqasim1 said:


> Pakistan still need j16s.


Why J-16.. it is a "bomb truck"






Did you mean J-11 multirole fighter for the PN


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## Fawadqasim1

The SC said:


> China will develop a naval version of the FC-31 then..
> 
> 
> Why J-16.. it is a "bomb truck"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you mean J-11 multirole fighter for the PN


Pakistan needs a long footed heavy lifter with good ew suite I think j16 fits the bill

moreover it will be very hard for china to sell j11s to pakistan without russian authorisation

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## 帅的一匹

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Pakistan needs a long footed heavy lifter with good ew suite I think j16 fits the bill
> 
> moreover it will be very hard for china to sell j11s to pakistan without russian authorisation


J16 is an attacking weapon system.


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## WarFariX

ATTENTION ALL :
PT-3 IS THE NAME OF PROTOTYPE WHICH FLEW IN DEC 2016. I CONFIRMED THIS FROM AIR FORCES MONTHLY MAGAZINE. MODEL OF PT-3 WILL BE DISPLAYED AT PARIS AIR SHOW JUNE

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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> ATTENTION ALL :
> PT-3 IS THE NAME OF PROTOTYPE WHICH FLEW IN DEC 2016. I CONFIRMED THIS FROM AIR FORCES MONTHLY MAGAZINE. MODEL OF PT-3 WILL BE DISPLAYED AT PARIS AIR SHOW JUNE




Why PT-3 ??? ... since PT-2 is the static test specimen, what would make sense ... however I think some here are still mixing the number of prototypes and configuration:

So IMO the...
PT-1 = no. 01 demonstrator (31001) = FC-31V1 (even if V1 & V2 are sure non-official designations)
PT-2 = most likely IMO the static test airframe = FC-31V1
PT-3 = the first revised prototype, which just flew today for the second time

Deino

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Why PT-3 ??? ... since PT-2 is the static test specimen, what would make sense ... however I think some here are still mixing the number of prototypes and configuration:
> 
> So IMO the...
> PT-1 = no. 01 demonstrator (31001) = FC-31V1 (even if V1 & V2 are sure non-official designations)
> PT-2 = most likely IMO the static test airframe = FC-31V1
> PT-3 = the first revised prototype, which just flew today for the second time
> 
> Deino


you mean v1 has 2 prototyoes?


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## Ultima Thule

X_Killer said:


> You mean, its not built for day flight.
> Applaud for you


It was just a joke, but remember if you want keep your development jet in extreme secrecy you always fly it at night examples are SR-71, U-2, F-117 and B-2


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## Deino

Yes, ... most likely the one that was transported back to Shenyang during summer last year.

Or what should PT-2 be by Your interpretation ?


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> ATTENTION ALL :
> PT-3 IS THE NAME OF PROTOTYPE WHICH FLEW IN DEC 2016. I CONFIRMED THIS FROM AIR FORCES MONTHLY MAGAZINE. MODEL OF PT-3 WILL BE DISPLAYED AT PARIS AIR SHOW JUNE



Unlikely, since the revised variant would also have its own static prototype, making it PT-04.

As per numerous other sources, a third variant is definitely in development, with moderate changes.


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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Unlikely, since the revised variant would also have its own static prototype, making it PT-04.
> 
> As per numerous other sources, a third variant is definitely in development, with moderate changes.


any hint or something? alan warnes said that he confirmed from sac officials that pt3 is the prototype that flew on december


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> any hint or something? alan warnes said that he confirmed from sac officials that pt3 is the prototype that flew on december



I don't doubt Mr. Warnes at all, but there have been persistent rumors of a new version, possibly with an enlarged airframe and other modifications, in development. It's likely a naval variant, but that is unconfirmed.


----------



## 帅的一匹

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170428V09TWD00


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## Maxpane

anything special in new version?


----------



## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170428V09TWD00


@Deino Well Sir it does look like a flanker tho tbh

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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Deino Well Sir it does look like a flanker tho tbh




Yes for sure, but to identify the specific version from these blurred few-seconds clip is at least beyond my ability in aircraft recognition; sorry if my post was misleading.

By the way, I cannot access that link.
is it the same like this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600

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## Fawadqasim1

wanglaokan said:


> https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170428V09TWD00


Wang bro can you find us pics of V3


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## 帅的一匹

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Wang bro can you find us pics of V3


I think V3 is a navy on board version, can't find it. I think the one exported to PAF will be V2.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Yes for sure, but to identify the specific version from these blurred few-seconds clip is at least beyond my ability in aircraft recognition; sorry if my post was misleading.
> 
> By the way, I cannot access that link.
> is it the same like this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600


yes but clearer enough to tell its a flanker...still you cant tell the version

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> is it the same like this?





MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> yes but clearer enough to tell its a flanker...still you cant tell the version



From the same Tweet (screenshot)

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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> From the same Tweet (screenshot)
> 
> View attachment 393751




STill no access to that video ... I really would like to see that Flanker a bit clearer !


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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> STill no access to that video ... I really would like to see that Flanker a bit clearer !



You mean this video (shared in tweet).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600
Clearly, FC-31

However, as you are not able to access the video, just got screenshots for you.

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## nomi007

Deino said:


> STill no access to that video ... I really would like to see that Flanker a bit clearer !


what is status of sidewings missiles like j20


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> You mean this video (shared in tweet).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600
> Clearly, FC-31
> 
> However, as you are not able to access the video, just got screenshots for you.




Thanks mate, but in the meantime I found the video somewhere else. However the J-11 is still not visible.

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## khanasifm



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## salman-1

Expert comments required

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## Maxpane

@Deino sir can you plz give us some info about new prototype ?

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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> @Deino sir can you plz give us some info about new prototype ?




To admit but by now I cannot tell You more than was already posted. 
As far as i know this is the second - first revised - flying prototype, but it is often called Pt.3. 
Following the latest rumours there seems to be indeed a raising interest on that type on behalf of the PLAN, but nothing confirmed so far ... 

I think we have to wait.

Deino

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> To admit but by now I cannot tell You more than was already posted.
> As far as i know this is the second - first revised - flying prototype, but it is often called Pt.3.
> Following the latest rumours there seems to be indeed a raising interest on that type on behalf of the PLAN, but nothing confirmed so far ...
> 
> I think we have to wait.
> 
> Deino


 thank 
you sir for your comment

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## The Accountant

Deino said:


> To admit but by now I cannot tell You more than was already posted.
> As far as i know this is the second - first revised - flying prototype, but it is often called Pt.3.
> Following the latest rumours there seems to be indeed a raising interest on that type on behalf of the PLAN, but nothing confirmed so far ...
> 
> I think we have to wait.
> 
> Deino


Is there any progress on this with Pakistan ?


----------



## salman-1

Yes certainly project is flourushing otherwise PT-3 would not have been made or tested. News are that PL navy has got interest in it as J-20 is a very heavy contender for catapult type aircraft carrier, it's underconstruction and a stealth variant instead or along with a j15 is only a viable option comes out to be Fc-31. But still not officially confirmed but once basic testing is done and approved according to desired standards for a stealth fighter it will be heavily funded and will be having a lot new gadgets from J-20 scaled down to fit in it.

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## Deino

The Accountant said:


> Is there any progress on this with Pakistan ?




Pardon, I have no Information but I'm sure other's here have or will have if available.

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## Ahmet Pasha

J-20 being tried for naval operation on cv16 aircraft carrier. PLAAN may discard j-31 after all?!


----------



## 帅的一匹

Ahmet Pasha said:


> J-20 being tried for naval operation on cv16 aircraft carrier. PLAAN may discard j-31 after all?!


It's only a CG made by fan boy

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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> J-20 being tried for naval operation on cv16 aircraft carrier. PLAAN may discard j-31 after all?!


That is a very good CGI


----------



## salman-1

The first thing that would prove testing on board will be new plat form with foldable wings. The present carrier is a jump sky type carrier and j-20 needs a catapult type aircraft carrier which is under construction yet. That's the pre requisite for J-20 a catapult. The space that j20 requires is huge more than an F-14 even. So j-31 stands a lot better chance for a carrier based fighter.

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## Ahmet Pasha

It may very well be a CGI


----------



## The SC

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 400418
> View attachment 400415
> View attachment 400416
> View attachment 400417
> 
> 
> Expert comments required


All the edges have been cut, even the inlets edges, the bottom is totally flat..what could they have added between the exhausts?


----------



## salman-1

It's internal weapon Bay Area has been increased for Sd-15 type missiles, almost 1/2 area is weapons bay, Chinese are designing new American type cased bomb for both J type stealth. The engine casing might be just to cover the unstealth area followed by the internal weapons bay. It also might be having bigger chaffs and flare launching kit.


----------



## Stealth

Ahmet Pasha said:


> J-20 being tried for naval operation on cv16 aircraft carrier. PLAAN may discard j-31 after all?!



lol behind the aircraft, blurlly sea background (evident of Aircraft engine is active) Error photoshop


----------



## UniverseWatcher



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## POPEYE-Sailor

DjSmg said:


> View attachment 403009
> View attachment 403010



Bro PAF has $$$ to purchase this aircraft or any upgarde plan for mirage ROSE ?


----------



## Ultima Thule

Ahmet Pasha said:


> J-20 being tried for naval operation on cv16 aircraft carrier. PLAAN may discard j-31 after all?!


Photoshop, J-20 is too heavy for an aircraft carrier, there is a rumors that single engine and scale-down version of J-20 is in development for PLAAN



ahmedlatif said:


> Bro PAF has $$$ to purchase this aircraft or any upgarde plan for mirage ROSE ?


bro in 2022-2025 time frame Pakistan economy is way better than todays, we can surely buy this jet at 2022-2025 time-frame from China and as for ROSE Mirage will replaced by JF-17blk-2-3


----------



## salman-1

Could these j/31 would be able to compete with rafael fighters which India is going to induct?
My answer is no. Buts comments are requested


----------



## Hassan Guy

salman-1 said:


> Could these j/31 would be able to compete with rafael fighters which India is going to induct?
> My answer is no. Buts comments are requested


advanced variants of the F-16 like the block 60 are


----------



## POPEYE-Sailor

pakistanipower said:


> Photoshop, J-20 is too heavy for an aircraft carrier, there is a rumors that single engine and scale-down version of J-20 is in development for PLAAN
> 
> 
> bro in 2022-2025 time frame Pakistan economy is way better than todays, we can surely buy this jet at 2022-2025 time-frame from China and as for ROSE Mirage will replaced by JF-17blk-2-3



May ALLAH Bless Pakistan..!!

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## Tank131

salman-1 said:


> Could these j/31 would be able to compete with rafael fighters which India is going to induct?
> My answer is no. Buts comments are requested



*If they are truly stealth/ 5th Gen fighters*, then given the types of advanced electronics China is fielding currently including new AESA radars, as well as EOTS-89 and EORD-31 which were able to supposedly detect Raptors from 100km away, I would say yes, these would be more than a match for Rafale.

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## Ultima Thule

Tank131 said:


> *If they are truly stealth/ 5th Gen fighters*, then given the types of advanced electronics China is fielding currently including new AESA radars, as well as EOTS-89 and EORD-31 which were able to supposedly detect Raptors from 100km away, I would say yes, these would be more than a match for Rafale.


Yes it is truly 5th generation jet, why you are in doubt 
But sir J-31 have weapon bays where Rafale have nothing rafale has bigger RCS then F-22 so definitely J-31 has been detected Rafale in excess of 100 Km

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Out of the two---detecting the Raptor is the " easier part "---getting a lock on it where the real problem is---.

It maybe dancing 10 miles in front of you and you may not get a lock.

You need missile head that has a picture memory in it---once it sees the aircraft and matches it to the picture memory---it heads that way---.

If something like that can be designed---!!!

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## volatile

MastanKhan said:


> You need missile head that has a picture memory in it---once it sees the aircraft and matches it to the picture memory---it heads that way---.


Sir I think there is a technology available which detects and engage by storing unique signature of an aeroplane but it's in development phase ,Im sorry only reference im quoting is from a movie 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1146673_1146673_stealth

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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> Yes it is truly 5th generation jet, why you are in doubt
> But sir J-31 have weapon bays where Rafale have nothing rafale has bigger RCS then F-22 so definitely J-31 has been detected Rafale in excess of 100 Km




But You are comparing apples with bananas !

The Rafale is a formidable, capable and mature fourth generation type with proven capabilities albeit certain limitations simply since it is a fourth generation fighter. The FC-31 is by now a concept demonstrator and a prototype. Not truly tested, far away from being mature and even more away from being operational against the Rafale, where is maybe could exploit its superiority it might have since it is a fifth generation project.

Deino

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## his5850

we need to buy an other 4th generation plane or we need to fast step the acquisition of 5th generation of plan that is very dangerous if India start build F-16


Deino said:


> But You are comparing apples with bananas !
> 
> The Rafale is a formidable, capable and mature fourth generation type with proven capabilities albeit certain limitations simply since it is a fourth generation fighter. The FC-31 is by now a concept demonstrator and a prototype. Not truly tested, far away from being mature and even more away from being operational against the Rafale, where is maybe could exploit its superiority it might have since it is a fifth generation project.
> 
> Deino



FC-31 going to be mature in 2 or 3 years and we need that plan more then ever


----------



## gambit

MastanKhan said:


> You need missile head that has a picture memory in it---once it sees the aircraft and matches it to the picture memory---it heads that way---.


Visual spectrum memory retention is not new, but it is memory space intensive, especially under combat maneuvers. Further, there is the problem of design evolution.

Take a look at the JF-17 and the F-16. They are very similar in terms of basic design layout. Not identical, just similar but similar enough that unless you look at the details, you can mistake one for the other. This is not WW I where you can distinguish out the Baron's tri-plane design from the Camel's typical bi-plane design. Modern air forces' needs have moved beyond the %50 threshold towards multi-role multi-missions designs, which necessitates similar compromises.

For example, if you want three hardpoints per wing, taken into consideration of munitions you carry for that multi-role multi-missions requirement, your wing span will be very similar to another design's wing span.

So for your visual spectrum identification design, you will need a higher than typical memory space capability, plus the processing power, then coupled them with high resolution optics, which is not new but can be physically imposing since now you must protect the optics from shock and environment.

The system will have to remember the physical details of the JF-17 and the F-16 since the major structures are similar enough to each other. Do you want the pilot to have any inputs like the current optical guidance system ? Air-air combat is not the same as going after a tank or a fixed SAM station. The tank is an excellent example of design similarities. All tanks pretty much looks alike. You need human guidance to tell the Abrams from the Leopard.

What you asks for is not impossible. We already have the basic technologies, although they are spread out thru other weapons systems. For an air-air missile that have sensor integration of optical identification with radar returns will require a dedicated program with its own 'untouchable' financing to achieve design goals.

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## PDF

Can anyone confirm Pakistan participation in FC-31 program?


----------



## SQ8

M.Musa said:


> Can anyone confirm Pakistan participation in FC-31 program?


None

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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> But You are comparing apples with bananas !
> 
> The Rafale is a formidable, capable and mature fourth generation type with proven capabilities albeit certain limitations simply since it is a fourth generation fighter. The FC-31 is by now a concept demonstrator and a prototype. Not truly tested, far away from being mature and even more away from being operational against the Rafale, where is maybe could exploit its superiority it might have since it is a fifth generation project.
> 
> Deino


sorry sir my bad i am wrong, you are right


----------



## Deino

his5850 said:


> FC-31 going to be mature in 2 or 3 years and we need that plan more then ever




Sorry again, if I'm not that optimistic ! What happened within the last two years ??? Not that much and even if the FC-31 will have a similar schedule akin to the J-20, which even more is a fully-state-baked high-priority program, it will never be mature within 2-3 years. At best also comparable within 5 years and only a proper budget is founded...

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## Ahmet Pasha

Now PAF needs to do something because enemy is gaining technological edge with every passing moment.


----------



## MastanKhan

his5850 said:


> we need to buy an other 4th generation plane or we need to fast step the acquisition of 5th generation of plan that is very dangerous if India start build F-16
> 
> 
> FC-31 going to be mature in 2 or 3 years and we need that plan more then ever



Hi,

When we tell you guys that a conventional aircraft would mature in 8-10-12 years and the 5th gen maybe around 10-20 years for a first time aircraft---then you need to show your intellect to learn and understand how it works---.

There is such rash of these thoughtless posts from young pakistanis---.

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## his5850

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When we tell you guys that a conventional aircraft would mature in 8-10-12 years and the 5th gen maybe around 10-20 years for a first time aircraft---then you need to show your intellect to learn and understand how it works---.
> 
> There is such rash of these thoughtless posts from young pakistanis---.



There are also those Pakistani who think they are PAF general by the way they said JF-17 is a waste of money and know defending it and these old people think are the master of the forum

Em saying Block update of FC-31 like JF-17 buy it in like TOT agreement as we did with JF-17 that will put Indian investment down the drain is that too much thought to get through your old skull we will have advantage over SU-30 and Rafale IF you put your money in 2 year and after that in 5 year you will have FC-31 which will give us 7 year in total which will also give it time to be more mature


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## ChineseToTheBone

his5850 said:


> These are also those Pakistani who think they are PAF general who said JF-17 is a waste of money and know defending it and these old people think are the master of the forum


Can you explain what you are referring to here exactly? It was my assumption that improved avionics for Block 3 of the JF-17 will make it a relatively even match against the F-16.


----------



## his5850

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Can you explain what you are referring to here exactly? It was my assumption that improved avionics for Block 3 of the JF-17 will make it a relatively even match against the F-16.


em not saying it i think is it is a great plane for PAF block 3 will be even better *em saying** MastanKhan in one post said we should have went for J-10 and JF-17 is waste of money *

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## ChineseToTheBone

If the later variants of the JF-17 and the upcoming J-31 do end up sharing the same engine in the future, then it would be an even clearer sign the original choice was the correct one.

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## Ahmet Pasha

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When we tell you guys that a conventional aircraft would mature in 8-10-12 years and the 5th gen maybe around 10-20 years for a first time aircraft---then you need to show your intellect to learn and understand how it works---.
> 
> There is such rash of these thoughtless posts from young pakistanis---.





his5850 said:


> These are also those Pakistani who think they are PAF general who said JF-17 is a waste of money and know defending it and these old people think are the master of the forum
> 
> Em saying Block update of FC-31 like JF-17 buy it in not TOT agreement that will put Indian investment down the drain is that too much thought to get through your old skull we will have advantage over SU-30 and Rafale IF you put your money in 2 year after 5 year you will have FC-31 which will 7 year in total which will also give it time to be more mature



You both are correct in your own way but one does not have defense expertise and cant speak good english. The other is quite arrogant and bossy.
So guys chill out relax and dont heat things up. Cheers


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## MastanKhan

his5850 said:


> There are also those Pakistani who think they are PAF general by the way they said JF-17 is a waste of money and know defending it and these old people think are the master of the forum
> 
> Em saying Block update of FC-31 like JF-17 buy it in like TOT agreement as we did with JF-17 that will put Indian investment down the drain is that too much thought to get through your old skull we will have advantage over SU-30 and Rafale IF you put your money in 2 year and after that in 5 year you will have FC-31 which will give us 7 year in total which will also give it time to be more mature



Hi,

Youg man---write in english----so we can understand what you are saying---. Write with a calm head---so you express yourself better in a clear manner.

When you respond angry---you lose focus and cohesion. 

try one more time and write a bit clearer to what you want to say.

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## Advocate Pakistan

So guys, no J-31??


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## Cyberian

Advocate Pakistan said:


> So guys, no J-31??


Wait for the start of the Rafales' delivery to India first.

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## DarX

Advocate Pakistan said:


> So guys, no J-31??



Sir the PAF will fully evaluate the J-31 before making any decision. It is only in the prototype stage and the design is still being updated. But the most important issue is that China still lacks indigenous engines for the plane and the RD-93s are just not good enough.

So it still has a long way to go, and when it does become available, the PAF will test before committing to it. I was actually quite convinced that Pakistan would go for the Z-10, but although it tested the platform rigorously, I've heard that we have now started negotiations with Turkey for T-129 Atak. This shows that Pakistan makes independent decisions and the J-31 will be accepted only if it meets the mark.



SUPARCO said:


> Wait for the start of the Rafales' delivery to India first.



I'm pretty sure the PAF is making its own planes independently of the IAF's procurement decisions. In fact, rather than waiting for the Rafale deliveries, this might've sped up the PAF's own plans for choosing a high performance platform.


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## salman-1

As far as Atak 129 decision had already been taken and 40 machines are on order and half may be more would be assembled in kaamra complex. 
J-31 is due to come in PAF for sure either we have to install Rd-93ma or RD-33mk. Most probably Rd-33mk as it's rate at 98kn or 22000lbs of thrust with4000 hrs of engine life. Engine choice of Pakistan and China could be different as China might use Ws-13e even if it's service life span is shorter like Al-31 or Ws-10, because it's there home made product.
The second prototype of J-31 is made with some Pakistani assistance for airframe changes as done in J-10b. It's being made for Pakistan.

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## syed_yusuf

Did Pakistan ordered 30 or 40 ATAK Helis?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

salman-1 said:


> As far as Atak 129 decision had already been taken and 40 machines are on order and half may be more would be assembled in kaamra complex.
> J-31 is due to come in PAF for sure either we have to install Rd-93ma or RD-33mk. Most probably Rd-33mk as it's rate at 98kn or 22000lbs of thrust with4000 hrs of engine life. Engine choice of Pakistan and China could be different as China might use Ws-13e even if it's service life span is shorter like Al-31 or Ws-10, because it's there home made product.
> The second prototype of J-31 is made with some Pakistani assistance for airframe changes as done in J-10b. It's being made for Pakistan.



Can you clarify the last line. 
J-31 second prototype is for PAF only or J10 B is also for PAF. 

There is a picture which shows both J-10 and JF 17B Refer post 5301

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.8600/page-234


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## salman-1

I said J-31 airframe being modified with Pakistani assistance as j-10b was modified on Pak request, changes were made dsi intake and horizontal stabilisers, ECM etc. I know Pak never opted for J10b due to engine refusal by Russia at that time. But later china offered us 18 free J10b if we buy total atleast 2 sqdrns. The redesigning of J-10b was the reason china offered free for 18 in reward.

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## araz

salman-1 said:


> I said J-31 airframe being modified with Pakistani assistance as j-10b was modified on Pak request, changes were made dsi intake and horizontal stabilisers, ECM etc. I know Pak never opted for J10b due to engine refusal by Russia at that time. But later china offered us 18 free J10b if we buy total atleast 2 sqdrns. The redesigning of J-10b was the reason china offered free for 18 in reward.


May I ask what the basis of this information is. You just dont offer a squadron of your lead fighters so theother country can be enticed into buying another squadron. The loss on such a deal would not make financial sense.
A

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## 帅的一匹

salman-1 said:


> I said J-31 airframe being modified with Pakistani assistance as j-10b was modified on Pak request, changes were made dsi intake and horizontal stabilisers, ECM etc. I know Pak never opted for J10b due to engine refusal by Russia at that time. But later china offered us 18 free J10b if we buy total atleast 2 sqdrns. The redesigning of J-10b was the reason china offered free for 18 in reward.


The why J10b doesn't make its appearance in PAF?


----------



## salman-1

seesonic said:


> If you are referring to Pakistan assisting the chinese in designing the J31 then you must be trolling.
> 
> For a nation that only has zero design capability, a assembly plant at best to "assist" a country like China who has experience in designing 4th gen to 5th gen is like boy scout giving guidance to a US Ranger on how to navigate through a jungle


Assistance doesn't mean covering the whole scenario, it could be a guidence in a specialised area which you could more refinements to offer. I read in some articals that The air intake of J-10A was adjustable for certain angle for proper Airflow to engine which caused some problems in maintenance. Pak engineers helped design it's new DSI intake for a uniform Airflow, that's assistance. It doesn't mean they designed the whole J-10b model.



wanglaokan said:


> The why J10b doesn't make its appearance in PAF?


Engine availability by Russians. Due to Indian pressure. But in case of Rd-93 they had an excuse as Indians were using American engine for Tejas


----------



## ziaulislam

salman-1 said:


> Could these j/31 would be able to compete with rafael fighters which India is going to induct?
> My answer is no. Buts comments are requested


If j31 is truly suppose to be a fifth gen.ac than asking this question is foolish


----------



## seesonic

salman-1 said:


> Assistance doesn't mean covering the whole scenario, it could be a guidence in a specialised area which you could more refinements to offer. I read in some articals that The air intake of J-10A was adjustable for certain angle for proper Airflow to engine which caused some problems in maintenance. Pak engineers helped design it's new DSI intake for a uniform Airflow, that's assistance. It doesn't mean they designed the whole J-10b model.
> 
> 
> Engine availability by Russians. Due to Indian pressure. But in case of Rd-93 they had an excuse as Indians were using American engine for Tejas



"Guidance" you say when Pakistan has *zero *experience in developing a modern day aircraft on your own

Dont make our chinese audience here laugh, they have enough laughter over at the Indians already


----------



## salman-1

seesonic said:


> "Guidance" you say when Pakistan has *zero *experience in developing a modern day aircraft on your own
> 
> Dont make our chinese audience here laugh, they have enough laughter over at the Indians already


Don't be so over confident with your acheivements, all you have today in your inventory is based on foreign help and assistance of friends. Russians mainly, pioneers are the super powers. If PAF gave some assistance in improving something it's not to be shy and laugh about. Respect all those who work with you.


----------



## MastanKhan

seesonic said:


> "Guidance" you say when Pakistan has *zero *experience in developing a modern day aircraft on your own
> 
> Dont make our chinese audience here laugh, they have enough laughter over at the Indians already



Hi,

You can laugh as much as you want to---but Paf had much more exposure to and workings of high tech aircraft of the western world than china had in the early part of the 21st century---.

Of those aircraft there is the F16---Mirage 2000---F18---Grippen---F15---Rafale---.

So---please---don't laugh too hard---.

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## seesonic

salman-1 said:


> Don't be so over confident with your acheivements, all you have today in your inventory is based on foreign help and assistance of friends. Russians mainly, pioneers are the super powers. If PAF gave some assistance in improving something it's not to be shy and laugh about. Respect all those who work with you.



Its doesnt matter my friend, i mean if you are out to troll or you are having some false sense of pride from the success of JF17 at least practice some common sense in doing so.

Chinese engineers have sort assistance from Amercians, Russian and Ukraine. Thus they are able to achieve what they are, today.

Seriously, our chinese audience must be bursting into laughter if this ever got translated into mandarin. Its a 5th generation plane for fug sake. The amount of trumpet blowing is comparable to the Indians claiming that LCA is the best in the entire universe.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You can laugh as much as you want to---but Paf had much more exposure to and workings of high tech aircraft of the western world than china had in the early part of the 21st century---.
> 
> Of those aircraft there is the F16---Mirage 2000---F18---Grippen---F15---Rafale---.
> 
> So---please---don't laugh too hard---.



Having a glorify assembly plant is nothing.

Having a know how and know why is the key.

Your mentality is no different from the Indians thinking that they can build whatever they want as long as they import the entire assembly line be it from the russians, french, amercians.

Please dont ever let the chinese know i bet they will be laughing their @ss off.

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## salman-1

Plz go ahead and write in your mandarin to some professional who has some credible knowledge and see how he laughs at your mental abilities.

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## el nino

ziaulislam said:


> If j31 is truly suppose to be a fifth gen.ac than asking this question is foolish


Ok
J31 will be unknown in cockpit technology 
By bet the Chinease radars ew suites and weapons are inferior to the west options


----------



## MastanKhan

seesonic said:


> Its doesnt matter my friend, i mean if you are out to troll or you are having some false sense of pride from the success of JF17 at least practice some common sense in doing so.
> 
> Chinese engineers have sort assistance from Amercians, Russian and Ukraine. Thus they are able to achieve what they are, today.
> 
> Seriously, our chinese audience must be bursting into laughter if this ever got translated into mandarin. Its a 5th generation plane for fug sake. The amount of trumpet blowing is comparable to the Indians claiming that LCA is the best in the entire universe.
> 
> 
> 
> Having a glorify assembly plant is nothing.
> 
> Having a know how and know why is the key.
> 
> Your mentality is no different from the Indians thinking that they can build whatever they want as long as they import the entire assembly line be it from the russians, french, amercians.
> 
> Please dont ever let the chinese know i bet they will be laughing their @ss off.



Hi,

Write with reason and you will stay on this board---sarcasm will get you a one way ticket out of this board---.

We don't need to bring an entire assembly line---.

If this is the range of your observations and information is---yu are a worthless addition to the board---.

Enjoy your stay here for the next few days till you guide yourself out of the exit door.

Thanks for coming.

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## seesonic

snow lake said:


> and what do you know?


What i do know when i see a trumpet blower. Or a shameless liar for this instance.

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## Ahmet Pasha

seesonic said:


> What i do know when i see a trumpet blower. Or a shameless liar for this instance.



Go save ur country from imminent destruction, hyperinflation and famine first. 

BTW zimbabwe air force also uses Pakistani made K-8 jets.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

seesonic said:


> Thats hardly the point, if you have something to back his claim then do if not i dont see a point in you people barking like a retarded animal.


Although its my first comment on this forum but i m a regular viewer of this forum bcz i found it very infornative.I have never seen such a bad language "barking like a retarted animal " what does it shows ? 
Is there any senior who can stop this man ?


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## HRK

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Go save ur country from imminent destruction, hyperinflation and famine first.
> 
> BTW zimbabwe air force also uses Pakistani made K-8 jets.


do you really think he is from Zimbabwe ...??
He is an INDIAN who is *ashamed *to display the flag of his country

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## Ahmet Pasha

Mods someone take care of this guy he is constantly derailing a thread. @waz @Horus @Oscar 



seesonic said:


> Thats hardly the point, if you have something to back his claim then do if not i dont see a point in you people barking like a retarded animal.





HRK said:


> do you really think he is from Zimbabwe ...??
> He is an INDIAN who is *ashamed *to display the flag of his country



I know but just trying to contest with the context he is presenting.


----------



## kurutoga

It is hard to believe Turkey can design a new stealth fighter jet from where they are today. But I guess good luck! Based on the HQ9 experience I don't think a China/Turkey joint project is remotely possible any more, maybe never.

PLAAF is not obligated to use FC31. PLAN may talk them into a carrier version. Neither is concrete.

There is no loss for Shenyang to design the FC-31 prototype. The amount of money is investment to keep the design team employed and gain more experience. Even if it is not sold to anyone. For a country like China there were so many project never entered production. Certainly not something that is worrisome.

Chinese defense budget will exceed $200b/year soon. As more countries seek alignment with China, buying stealth fighter from China is certainly a big plus for both sides. If FC-31 is not working out, there will be the next generation. What about weapons, AMRAAM, radar systems... China is going to overwhelm competitors in all aspects.

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## .

Since this thing has a bomb bay , will it be able to carry any ACM ? Will it be able to carry on any nuclear role ?


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## ChineseToTheBone

Multiple J-31 stealth fighter jets were featured quite prominently at the beginning of this rather official promotion video directly from our air force media department some while back. Not saying this would represent anything concrete of course, but it just might be a hint they are indeed supporting the development of this project.

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## Daniel808

*Shenyang FC-31 Grey Falcon 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter*

















Credit to @cirr

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## CHI RULES

Russian T50/PAK FA is ready for induction in Russian air force so one should be clear that it's export version may be inducted in IAF as soon as by 2019. Pak should start negotiations with China for purchase of FC31 if it is ready.

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## Daniel808

*Another FC-31 Grey Falcon 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter Test Flights with WS-13 IPE Engine yesterday*














Credit to @grey boy 2 

She is ready

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## Taygibay

CHI RULES said:


> Russian T50/PAK FA is ready for induction in Russian air force so one should be clear that it's export version may be inducted in IAF as soon as by 2019. Pak should start negotiations with China for purchase of FC31 if it is ready.



Big LOL there mate! It's worse than that.
The Su-57 won't be exported for a few years yet
and the Indians want a re-worked version as with
the MKI, the definition of which isn't frozen today.

As an export offering, the FC-31 stands alone.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## Maxpane

wish paf joins this project

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## Taygibay

Maxpane said:


> wish paf joins this project



So does Daniel but that's a thinker!
The Thunder has to keep evolving;
PAC is not in the Gyrfalcon industrial ecosystem.
Thus, there's more to be gained in the first case
as FC-31 would be an outright buy, no real ToT.

If the PAF Falcons were nearer to retirement, it
would be easier to fathom. One way to do this in
my view would be to prepare and sign the next
collaboration with the Celestials now and sell the
F-16s to pay for the new inductees; a win-win?

Added bonus, switching so fast after the Rafale
buy from the South-East could provoke India to
spring for X-wing fighters and Death Stars thus
bankrupting its economy in the process!!!   

Good day both, Tay.

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## grey boy 2

A nice one

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## salman-1

If tests are going on with new engines then it means the new prototype will become an exportable fighter.


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## 帅的一匹

salman-1 said:


> If tests are going on with new engines then it means the new prototype will become an exportable fighter.


Maybe PAF is already in the business, who knows? They always give surprise.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Not sure why we are not the first nation to purchase this beside China his is perfect 5th generation platform for our Airforce's 50-60 Front Line Fighter program

We should get 100-120 5th Generation crafts and donate all F16 to Palestinians

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## Maxpane

we should join this project and earn money by exporting it to the friendly nations and end monopoly of u s and western countries


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## CHI RULES

Taygibay said:


> Big LOL there mate! It's worse than that.
> The Su-57 won't be exported for a few years yet
> and the Indians want a re-worked version as with
> the MKI, the definition of which isn't frozen today.
> 
> As an export offering, the FC-31 stands alone.
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.




Sir, sorry to differ from your point but as soon as Pak even goes for a contract regarding FC-31, India may start induction of 5th gen Jets at earliest as they are not limited in options even may go for F35 if start production of F16 block70 in India. Big market, big opportunities. Even now IAF not only has edge in case of numbers but also in quality.
We require serious threat analysis. India has improved operational readiness of 200+Sukhois by c rash program of storing spares at huge level and intends to improve operational readiness in next 1-2 Years up to 70%+ of fleet. Jaguars being upgraded with AESA and other tech. Mig 29 Ks in naval role already capable. Rafael induction from 2019 and prospective production of F16 block70 or Grippen NG. Capable low to high level Radars coverage with capable SAMs along with near future induction of S400. HOBS WVRs and BVRs of next gen.

What Pak has.
Only start of JF17 block 3 proposed induction from 2018-19.
So far no plans to get next gen BVRs or HOBs WVRs. ( Perhaps SD10b or PL-15s and PL10s with JF 17 next block.).
A generation behind AMRAAM120 C-5 and PL9s though capable but older.

Old low level Radars and whole network prone to jamming as done/claimed to be done by NATO during OBL operation.

Virtually no high altitude SAM only few batteries perhaps functional of HQ2b. Limited induction of medium/Low level SAMs.

No chance of up gradation of F16s and also sanction prone. Further we may not go for their sale in same way as US has blocked sale of old F16s to Pak by Jordan.
200+ jets to be replaced. Passed their useful life.

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## ziaulislam

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, sorry to differ from your point but as soon as Pak even goes for a contract regarding FC-31, India may start induction of 5th gen Jets at earliest as they are not limited in options even may go for F35 if start production of F16 block70 in India. Big market, big opportunities. Even now IAF not only has edge in case of numbers but also in quality.
> We require serious threat analysis. India has improved operational readiness of 200+Sukhois by c rash program of storing spares at huge level and intends to improve operational readiness in next 1-2 Years up to 70%+ of fleet. Jaguars being upgraded with AESA and other tech. Mig 29 Ks in naval role already capable. Rafael induction from 2019 and prospective production of F16 block70 or Grippen NG. Capable low to high level Radars coverage with capable SAMs along with near future induction of S400. HOBS WVRs and BVRs of next gen.
> 
> What Pak has.
> Only start of JF17 block 3 proposed induction from 2018-19.
> So far no plans to get next gen BVRs or HOBs WVRs. ( Perhaps SD10b or PL-15s and PL10s with JF 17 next block.).
> A generation behind AMRAAM120 C-5 and PL9s though capable but older.
> 
> Old low level Radars and whole network prone to jamming as done/claimed to be done by NATO during OBL operation.
> 
> Virtually no high altitude SAM only few batteries perhaps functional of HQ2b. Limited induction of medium/Low level SAMs.
> 
> No chance of up gradation of F16s and also sanction prone. Further we may not go for their sale in same way as US has blocked sale of old F16s to Pak by Jordan.
> 200+ jets to be replaced. Passed their useful life.


so wahts the solution within our resources

i think fast pace jf-17s, work on 2-3 squardons of FC 31 and get if possible used f-16s(they come cheap), do a JV in AAM and HMDS for jf-17 with either south africa or turkey
built and revamp infrastructure, radars and SAMs(JV large scale medium SAM)

all of this can be acheived in 7-8 billion dollars budget and is mcuh better option rather spedning all that money to just buy a single defense ticket project


----------



## Maxpane

we are far far behind now


----------



## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/919949408447348736

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## Maxpane




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We really need to place order for 50 of these birds to retire the F16 sell them to another nation


----------



## Advocate Pakistan

royalharris said:


> Interesting
> Indonesia are turning from kfx to fc31
> pakistan seems turning from fc31 to tfx



Any rumors in Indonesian circles about such a shift?
And as far as Pakistan is concerned, they seem to be looking to calculate their resources. Key would be technology transfers, financing etc before a decision is made. Plus, with J 31 having a 50/50 chance of getting inducted in PLAAF or PLANAF, PAF would want to see them commiting before she does.


----------



## Maxpane

any new about the bird?


----------



## araz

Maxpane said:


> any new about the bird?


No and unlikely to be heard from for the next 5 years. Remember this is a new generation plane with unknown problems and teething troubles. PAF will probably not look at induction till PLAAF/ PLAN gives the go ahead to it indicating money for its development.
A


----------



## Maxpane

araz said:


> No and unlikely to be heard from for the next 5 years. Remember this is a new generation plane with unknown problems and teething troubles. PAF will probably not look at induction till PLAAF/ PLAN gives the go ahead to it indicating money for its development.
> A


ok sir . can i ask you another question? how if plaaf does not approve it then how paf will get its fifth gen bird?


----------



## Trango Towers

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Not sure why we are not the first nation to purchase this beside China his is perfect 5th generation platform for our Airforce's 50-60 Front Line Fighter program
> 
> We should get 100-120 5th Generation crafts and donate all F16 to Palestinians


Palestinians....Oh God

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## araz

Maxpane said:


> ok sir . can i ask you another question? how if plaaf does not approve it then how paf will get its fifth gen bird?


J31 will then remain a prototype and PAF will buy the J20 or wait for the Turkish platform. Have you not heard that PAF high ups are already hinting towards that.
A


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> J31 will then remain a prototype and PAF will buy the J20 or wait for the Turkish platform. Have you not heard that PAF high ups are already hinting towards that.
> A


nation want nothing less then 5t gen sir


----------



## araz

Imran Khan said:


> nation want nothing less then 5t gen sir


Then the nation needs to stop it's Haraam khori and haraam kaari , work hard and pay it's taxes.
No money no honey my friend.
A

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## Trango Towers

araz said:


> Then the nation needs to stop it's Haraam khori and haraam kaari , work hard and pay it's taxes.
> No money no honey my friend.
> A


No money no honey only applies in brothels.
This is Pakistan and PAF knows what it's doing. 
Jumping up and down doesn't help. None of us really know what the actual problems faced by PAF. Maybe j31 isn't as capable as stated. Maybe it needs time to develop. Is it really a a fighter than can take on the best out there and win. Stealth is a word thrown about liberally these days. F117a was a stealth fighter bomber. Where is it now? Short life.


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> Then the nation needs to stop it's Haraam khori and haraam kaari , work hard and pay it's taxes.
> No money no honey my friend.
> A


 breathing tax is remaining sir her cheez per to tax laga hai


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## Daniel808

Maxpane said:


> any new about the bird?



This beauty seen to flying many Extensive Test Flight in recent days over Shenyang sky






There is a rumour in their forum that China's Navy will go for J-20 (H Variant) for their land based 5th Gen Stealth Fighter, and FC-31 for their Aircraft Carrier based 5th Gen Stealth Fighter.

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## Akasa

Daniel808 said:


> This beauty seen to flying many Extensive Test Flight in recent days over Shenyang sky
> 
> View attachment 434586
> 
> 
> There is a *rumour in their forum that China's Navy will go for J-20 (H Variant) for their land based 5th Gen Stealth Fighter, and FC-31 for their Aircraft Carrier based 5th Gen Stealth Fighter.*



From which forum?


----------



## Silicon0000

Is there any news of CAC single engine 5th Gen?


----------



## clarkgap

Silicon0000 said:


> Is there any news of CAC single engine 5th Gen?



The 5th Gen fighter need internal boomb bay, so it cannot be too light.

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## Ultima Thule

Silicon0000 said:


> Is there any news of CAC single engine 5th Gen?


Just a rumor

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## python-000

J-31v2 is the best option for Pakistan Air Force.
any idea when its going to the production line ?


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## Dazzler

Pl-21 inside the bay...

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/928612680776138753

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## Maxpane

4 pl 21 in bay?


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## Daniel808

*Another Test flight of FC-31V2.0 today
Credit to : @JSCh 





*
I am suspicious there is a potential buyer, why so many test flight in recent month

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## countryman

Pakistan should go for complete production or TOT of lower generation fighter jet first - we're missing air frame design and manufacturing capabilities.


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## Shabi1

Daniel808 said:


> *Another Test flight of FC-31V2.0 today
> Credit to : @JSCh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I am suspicious there is a potential buyer, why so many test flight in recent month



In terms of appearance, to me it looks better than J-20 (those canards don't look stealthy). And even when compared with JSF it's more streamlined.

Really hoping and will not be surprised if Project Azm 5th gen project turns out to be localized J-31.

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## Falcon26

Shabi1 said:


> In terms of appearance, to me it looks better than J-20 (those canards don't look stealthy). And even when compared with JSF it's more streamlined.
> 
> Really hoping and will not be surprised if Project Azm 5th gen project turns out to be localized J-31.



This is my view as well. Hard to imagine Pakistan building a 5th generation fighter all on its own. This jet might turn out to be a Pakistani iteration of MBT-2000/Al Khalid and CH-3/Burraq. Cost effective and logical step forward to handle Indian Rafael with the TAI TFX filling high-end 5th generation slot IMO

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## Daniel808

*Another amazing shot of Test Flight FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter *
*





*

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## Maxpane

wow beauty


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## CHACHA"G"

Falcon26 said:


> This is my view as well. Hard to imagine Pakistan building a 5th generation fighter all on its own. This jet might turn out to be a Pakistani iteration of MBT-2000/Al Khalid and CH-3/Burraq. Cost effective and logical step forward to handle Indian Rafael with the TAI TFX filling high-end 5th generation slot IMO


Logical and cost effective way,,,,,,,, JF-17 and J-31 (both local), F-16 and TFX or EFT and TFX (one "TFX" can be local) , as we all know PAF have to replace 36 older F-16 in 10 years time.


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## Maxpane

beautiful ,stealthy and deadly beast


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## python-000

PAF must go for it


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## Ultimate Weapon

python-000 said:


> PAF must go for it



I second it.


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## Advocate Pakistan

dy1022 said:


> No, TFX is much better !



TFX is to be an air superiority fighter like the F-22. Might not be at par with the F-22 but the Turks are aiming for something as close to the Raptor as possible.
If we go the TFX way only, we might in future be discussing the unavailability of a strike platform in PAF, 2 decades from now. The role which the F-35 will serve primarily for U.S. and her allies.

I believe if money wasn't an issue and in ideal circumstances, the PAF would go for both the platforms. Gaining knowledge and expertise from both and marrying it into a local Fifth gen fighter when the JF17 Thunder would need replacement.


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## Maxpane

hm


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## Signalian

Advocate Pakistan said:


> TFX is to be an air superiority fighter like the F-22. Might not be at par with the F-22 but the Turks are aiming for something as close to the Raptor as possible.


which avionics? indigenous or american?


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## Advocate Pakistan

Signalian said:


> which avionics? indigenous or american?



Mostly Turkish, but details are rare. I believe we will have to wait for details till the time first prototype takes to air 2023.
We can have further discussion in the TFX thread. I don't like comments being deleted by mods.


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## HAIDER

Officially first J31 in production

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## Advocate Pakistan

HAIDER said:


> Officially first J31 in production



Production! For prototype, testing or LRIP? If prototype than we have already seen a few earlier.


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## HAIDER

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Production! For prototype, testing or LRIP? If prototype than we have already seen a few earlier.


must be LRIP , frame testing was done over year ago. Avionic test and staging will be later.


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## Maxpane

really?


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## Advocate Pakistan

HAIDER said:


> must be LRIP , frame testing was done over year ago. Avionic test and staging will be later.


Please share the source link.


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## Akasa

The FC-31 is certainly not in production.


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## python-000

SinoSoldier said:


> The FC-31 is certainly not in production.


how can you say that do you have any proof !!!


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## Akasa

python-000 said:


> how can you say that do you have any proof !!!



No customers, not to mention flight testing isn't even close to being finished.


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## Dalit

Without a doubt, this 5th gen platform is a strong contender for PAF. I don’t see anything coming close to this.


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## python-000

can Pakistan finalize any deal or Contract with China in 2018 about J-31 v2 with TOT ???
2nd what is the Chinese opinion about this !


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## kurutoga

python-000 said:


> can Pakistan finalize any deal or Contract with China in 2018 about J-31 v2 with TOT ???
> 2nd what is the Chinese opinion about this !



Since FC-31 is designed for export, it will take any offers I guess. Rumor says Saudi is interested but highly unlikely. If Pakistan wants this jet it is best to join soon. I have a feeling Iran would take a close look at it after the boycott is over.

There is a remote chance PLAN will purchase FC-31. Although FC-31 is fairly nice, so far no concrete message on purchasing.

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## jupiter2007

python-000 said:


> can Pakistan finalize any deal or Contract with China in 2018 about J-31 v2 with TOT ???
> 2nd what is the Chinese opinion about this !



Pakistan was never involved in the development of J-31. You can not expect Chinese to share their 5th generation technology for free. If Chinese are asking for 60 millions each for of the shelf cost of J-10c, do you think they will sell J-31 for peanuts. Are we willing to pay 100 million each for J-31?
People need to stop day dreaming and face the reality. Corrupt politicians have looted and bankrupt the country. Our reserves will keep us floating until April 2018, our currency will be devalued and there will be massive increases in prices after April 2018.

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## Ahmet Pasha

But isnt cpec supposed to be a glimmer of hope.


jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan was never involved in the development of J-31. You can not expect Chinese to share their 5th generation technology for free. If Chinese are asking for 60 millions each for of the shelf cost of J-10c, do you think they will sell J-31 for peanuts. Are we willing to pay 100 million each for J-31?
> People need to stop day dreaming and face the reality. Corrupt politicians have looted and bankrupt the country. Our reserves will keep us floating until April 2018, our currency will be devalued and there will be massive increases in prices after April 2018.


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## python-000

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan was never involved in the development of J-31. You can not expect Chinese to share their 5th generation technology for free. If Chinese are asking for 60 millions each for of the shelf cost of J-10c, do you think they will sell J-31 for peanuts. Are we willing to pay 100 million each for J-31?
> People need to stop day dreaming and face the reality. Corrupt politicians have looted and bankrupt the country. Our reserves will keep us floating until April 2018, our currency will be devalued and there will be massive increases in prices after April 2018.


So why is that Threat still alive on PAF section ???


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## jupiter2007

python-000 said:


> So why is that Threat still alive on PAF section ???


Hope my friend, hope keep us going.

Once all the snakes are behind bar, we will be able to make some positive moves.
Building dams to generate electricity should be the top priority.


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## python-000

jupiter2007 said:


> Hope my friend, hope keep us going.
> 
> Once all the snakes are behind bar, we will be able to make some positive moves.
> Building dams to generate electricity should be the top priority.


Ok bro lest hope for the better future InshAllah ....


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## araz

kurutoga said:


> Since FC-31 is designed for export, it will take any offers I guess. Rumor says Saudi is interested but highly unlikely. If Pakistan wants this jet it is best to join soon. I have a feeling Iran would take a close look at it after the boycott is over.
> 
> There is a remote chance PLAN will purchase FC-31. Although FC-31 is fairly nice, so far no concrete message on purchasing.


The F31 needs a commitment from PLAAF before securing buyers. PAF has been stung by their refusal to buy the JFT inspite of commitment to do so. No country will pour money into it till the product is complete and ready for use which it is not. This is where the problem with J31 lies

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## Tameem

araz said:


> The F31 needs a commitment from PLAAF before securing buyers. PAF has been stung by their refusal to buy the JFT inspite of commitment to do so. No country will pour money into it till the product is complete and ready for use which it is not. This is where the problem with J31 lies



Right Approach

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## araz

Tameem said:


> Right Approach


Fully agreed. The research into 5th generation could be a bottomless pit and PAF is rightly not budging on its demands.
A


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## kurutoga

araz said:


> The F31 needs a commitment from PLAAF before securing buyers. PAF has been stung by their refusal to buy the JFT inspite of commitment to do so. No country will pour money into it till the product is complete and ready for use which it is not. This is where the problem with J31 lies



Once PLAAF orders FC-31, some people will complain they are made to the needs of PLAAF, not our AF. Buyers will buy, window shoppers will not. FC-31 positions itself as being the only 5th gen jet available to countries who can't buy F-35. Possibly FC-31 has better technology than F-35 base model. If that is not enough, then you have to wait till 2040 or later until more options are available, if ever. So far, these promising projects all turn out to be paper planes in the end.

Now look, I am not trying to sell FC-31. Just saying the first customer will have a major say how the project will be developed. So if there is a need, I suggest interested buyers join the project sooner rather than later. If there is not a need, FC-31 will remain as a project in testing.

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## araz

kurutoga said:


> Once PLAAF orders FC-31, some people will complain they are made to the needs of PLAAF, not our AF. Buyers will buy, window shoppers will not. FC-31 positions itself as being the only 5th gen jet available to countries who can't buy F-35. Possibly FC-31 has better technology than F-35 base model. If that is not enough, then you have to wait till 2040 or later until more options are available, if ever. So far, these promising projects all turn out to be paper planes in the end.
> 
> Now look, I am not trying to sell FC-31. Just saying the first customer will have a major say how the project will be developed. So if there is a need, I suggest interested buyers join the project sooner rather than later. If there is not a need, FC-31 will remain as a project in testing.


Your post has a lot of statements which need proof.
A. We are talking about a plane that is yet a prototype unless I am mistaken. So how are you judging its capabilities?
B. We are talking about a plane that CURRENTLY does not have an engine and is flying on RD series engines.
C. Over the last 5 years there has been pretty little progress on the platform apart from building a second prototype with a few air frame changes. How do you know that the design is finalized and what its weaknesses are?
D. What technologies will go into it is another mystery as there has been no announcement from Chinese sources so even that is fluid ie not fixed. So again what is the basis of your claims?
E. Pak China relations being what they are you have seen a lot of Ex PAF people suddenly talking about the J20. PAF has a habit of keeping pretty quiet till it decides so why this interest in J20. 
I personally dont think that the J31 will move beyond prototypes unless there is support from PLAAF/PLAANAF. However let us wait and see what happens. Secondly for the next decade the Chinese will remain behind the US in technological prowess and start catching up by 2030. Till that time much as I love the J20/J31 it will be second tier to the F22/35 and this is generally accepted by all and sundry. Any misconception in this regard is shear folly.
Regards
A

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## Ahmet Pasha

When did you come across PAF talking about J 20??


araz said:


> Your post has a lot of statements which need proof.
> A. We are talking about a plane that is yet a prototype unless I am mistaken. So how are you judging its capabilities?
> B. We are talking about a plane that CURRENTLY does not have an engine and is flying on RD series engines.
> C. Over the last 5 years there has been pretty little progress on the platform apart from building a second prototype with a few air frame changes. How do you know that the design is finalized and what its weaknesses are?
> D. What technologies will go into it is another mystery as there has been no announcement from Chinese sources so even that is fluid ie not fixed. So again what is the basis of your claims?
> E. Pak China relations being what they are you have seen a lot of Ex PAF people suddenly talking about the J20. PAF has a habit of keeping pretty quiet till it decides so why this interest in J20.
> I personally dont think that the J31 will move beyond prototypes unless there is support from PLAAF/PLAANAF. However let us wait and see what happens. Secondly for the next decade the Chinese will remain behind the US in technological prowess and start catching up by 2030. Till that time much as I love the J20/J31 it will be second tier to the F22/35 and this is generally accepted by all and sundry. Any misconception in this regard is shear folly.
> Regards
> A


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/934044648183537664

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> When did you come across PAF talking about J 20??


There is an interview from Retd AVM zulfiqar mentioning J20. ACM also has talked of PAF evaluating J20/J31. The point is all of a sudden people have started talking about the J20 after having heard that J20 is only for PLAAF.
A


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/934098092923719682

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## araz

rcrmj said:


> TFX will be as good as a paper work, Turkey has no base, experience and technological-readness to develop 4th gen fighter let alone 5th, period !


You are being unfair to Turkey. The development in the aviation industry in Turkey needs to be researched by you. They built and had the software codes to their own F16s. This puts them at least at level with us if not further. Some of the work on ASELPOD is superior to the Chinese offerings to PAF.
A

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## Deino

Berkant said:


> ... but Turkey develops 5th gen Jet Fighter ( will be the best Fighter in the World )




 Pardon, I don't know what stuff You smoked but I want some too

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## Ahmet Pasha

If not the the best then one of the best. @Berkant has a point there.


Deino said:


> Pardon, I don't know what stuff You smoked but I want some too


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## Deino

... nothing more than Turkish propaganda. 

Could You please stop derailing this thread - which is on the FC-31 for Pakistan - with Your hyper nationalistic propaganda of any Turkish aerospace products? 




Ahmet Pasha said:


> If not the the best then one of the best. @Berkant has a point there.



No, he has not. ... all these projects, TFX, UAVs, carriers, helicopters and so on will burst like a soap-bubble because of rising inflation, internal political unrest and isolation, especially on the part of Europe. Most of them are nothing more than a wet dreams.

And now back to the topic this is for the FC-31 in Pakistan !

Deino

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> There is an interview from Retd AVM zulfiqar mentioning J20. ACM also has talked of PAF evaluating J20/J31. The point is all of a sudden people have started talking about the J20 after having heard that J20 is only for PLAAF.
> A


I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.


I personally think knowing PAF's modus operandi that there will be "significant input" from 3rd parties and multiple collaborators will result in our next fifth generation project. The help will be in nearly all departments including design. The design may be original but will have lots of input from other parties. 
I understand that PAC and PAF is really upbeat but objectively a new generation design with no experience from earlier planes of the same generation is asking a bit too much. This remains my own assessment so maybe totally wrong.
A

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## The Eagle

Discussion w.r.t. credibility of other platform in favour of any nation, may please be moved and members are advised to tag concerned debaters in respective section/thread. 

Regards,

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> I personally think knowing PAF's modus operandi that there will be "significant input" from 3rd parties and multiple collaborators will result in our next fifth generation project. The help will be in nearly all departments including design. The design may be original but will have lots of input from other parties.
> I understand that PAC and PAF is really upbeat but objectively a new generation design with no experience from earlier planes of the same generation is asking a bit too much. This remains my own assessment so maybe totally wrong.
> A


Absolutely. Original design, but with strong external support.


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## rcrmj

araz said:


> You are being unfair to Turkey. The development in the aviation industry in Turkey needs to be researched by you. They built and had the software codes to their own F16s. This puts them at least at level with us if not further. Some of the work on ASELPOD is superior to the Chinese offerings to PAF.
> A


not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source

and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
assembly
extension work
upgrade
R&D

Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic

thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago



Berkant said:


> TURKEY produced under license F16 Fighter Jets and General Electric F110-GE-100 Engines for more than 25 years
> 
> Turkey has base, experience and technological-readness easly to develop 4th gen fighter ... but Turkey develops 5th gen Jet Fighter ( will be the best Fighter in the World )
> 
> -- Aselsan IFF (Friend or Foe) System
> -- Aselsan SPEWS II Electronic Warfare Self Protection Suite
> -- Aselsan GaN based AESA Radar
> -- Aselsan ASELPOD Targeting Pod
> -- Aselsan MEHPOD Jamming Pod
> -- Tubitak - Sage SOM Cruise Missile
> -- Tubitak - Sage HGK and KGK Smart Bombs
> -- Tubitak - Sage GOKTUG BVR and VWR Air to Air Missiles
> -- Aselsan TEBER Smart Bomb
> -- Aselsan LGK Laser Guided Bomb
> 
> also Turkish TAI ANKA MALE Armed Drone ( UCAV ) SAR Radar+SATCOM+Laser Guided Missiles ( only The US,,Israel,,Turkey and China in the World )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also TURKEY started to develop new TAI ATAK-2 Attack Helicopter
> -- 6-8 ton class new design
> -- 2 x Turkish TEI TS-1400 Engines
> -- Turkish Mission Computer
> -- Turkish Aselsan Helicopter Electronic Warfare System
> -- Turkish MILDAR milimetric wave fire control Radar ... ( 12 km range )
> -- Turkish AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS)
> -- 8 km Turkish CIRIT Laser guided Rocket
> -- 8 km Turkish MIZRAK Laser guided Missile
> -- 30 km Turkish TEMREN Missile
> -- 22 km Turkish GOKTUG Air to Air Missile


to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.

so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!

so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````

between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion

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## Globalwarrior

With all due respect, forget Turks in the 5th gen
The Chinese ones are already in the air 
Need to get coupled with one of them asap

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## rcrmj

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.


FC-31 is the only viable option so far````at the end of the day CAC or SAC they are all from the same coporation

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.



The Pak military has said a lot of things and it for domestic consumption. They said the Buraq UAV and Barq Missile are Pakistani, based on CH-3, when we all know that the only thing that is Pakistani were the hands that opened the kits and assembled them. There is a possibility that Pakistan may be manufacturing them, but they are the CH-3 UAV and AR-1 Missile to be sure.

The reality is that IF Pakistan wants to get into the 5th gen fighter game, there are 4 ways. 

1. BUY a solution off the shelf. This means acquiring a product in production ala F-16. The only option at this point could be J-20 as J-31 may never be produced for China. TFX could be am option in the future, but there is not much beyond comcepts currently. PAF cannot afford to be the only buyer of a design unless it has some control over the project. It is too risky amd costly unless the home nation is also acquiring the type. The KAI/IA KFX may also be am option in the future but will likely be under a lot of US influence. 

2. JOINT VENTURE: this could entail PAF being the sole initial buyer for the type (as it was in JF-17) because it allows for some control of the project. J-31 is ideal for this but TFX is a possibility. 

3. R&D from scratch. But Pakistan has very little experience in the aviation sector. Further more it has no experience in aeronautical design and zero experience in engine design or manufacturing. This would be a decades long endeavor culminating likely in 2040s

4. Contracting out the R&D while maintaining IP of the part and technology. This could include acquiring a project wholesale as the Turks did when they bought the Agusta Mangusta project amd turned it into the TAI ATAK. They took a project that was complete and bough the technology and IP for it, allowing them to jump to the end of the project. This is likely (imho) what project AZM will turn out to be. Pakistan will probably buy out the IP for a design (like J-31). China has shown little to no interest in it, but development it continuing on a rapid pace. Pakistan (the most logical launch customer has discussed it in passing). My suspicion it that J-31 will become F-31 for Project AZM. They may further contract out other subsystems when it comes under their control (like more J-20 subsystems or engine from Turkey (ala EJ200 Variant that turkey plans to acquire)). Pakistan in my opinion will likely buy the J-31 program much like Turkey bought the Mangusta project. It may evem have financial backing to do so by the Arabs (which would be huge for Pakistan) in order to supply them unencumbered by western demands.

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> FC-31 is the only viable option so far````at the end of the day CAC or SAC they are all from the same coporation


Same corporation with different culture


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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> Same corporation with different culture


I dont see any issue in that``````


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## MMM-E

rcrmj said:


> not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source
> 
> and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
> If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
> assembly
> extension work
> upgrade
> R&D
> 
> Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic
> 
> thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago
> 
> 
> to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
> the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.
> 
> so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!
> 
> so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````
> 
> between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion




You know nothing about TURKEY ....

Aselsan , Havelsan , Meteksan , AYESAS , MILSOFT and TUBITAK have developed Software , Source codes , National Data Links,,Data Software,, IFF Identification Friend or Foe System ,,, Combat Management System , etc for Turkish F-16s , T-129 Attack Helicopter ,,Frigates and Submarines

Turkish Airforce 163 of CCIP modernized F-16s uses Turkish software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems ... ( Turkey is only Muslim Country that uses its own software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems,,etc )

also TURKEY has developed everything you said , including JP-10 type Missile Fuel which is produced only a few countries in the world

-- Aselsan ASELPOD Targeting Pod
-- Aselsan MEHPED Jamming Pod ... ( only The US,Israel,Turkey and Russia in the World )
-- Aselsan KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System .. ( only Russia and Turkey )
-- Aselsan Quantum-well infrared photodetectors ... ( only 5 in world wide)
-- Aselsan NANO Tecnology microchip for Radars ...( only 4 in world wide )
-- Aselsan Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suite (SPEWS )....( only 6 in world wide )
-- Aselsan TORK anti torpedo hard kill system .. ( only The US,Israel,Turkey ,Germany and Russia in the World )
-- Aselsan GaN based AESA Radars ..( 450km CAFRAD Radar for TF-2000 class Frigate ) one of the longest range

-- Meteksan MILDAR Fire control Radar for T-129 Attack Helicopter ... 12 km MILDAR is better than 8km American LONGBOW Radar

-- TAI ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) ..SATCOM+SAR Radar+Laser guided Missiles ...( only The US,,Israel,,Turkey and China in the World )

-- by 2004 TURKEY was the 4th Country that developed Smart Bomb after The US , Israel and Russia

-- SOM and ATMACA Missiles are with Network enabled capability ... ( only The US,,Uk,,Turkey and Germany in the World )

I can show you around 550 Turkish Military Projects


TURKEY started to develop weapons after 2003 ... but only in 13 years 3 Turkish Defense Companies Aselsan,Roketsan and TAI entered into top 100 in the World by 2017

The US : 42
UK : 9
Japan : 8
Russia : 6
France : 5
Israel : 4
Turkey : 3
S.Korea : 3
Germany : 2
India : 2
China : 0

Source : http://people.defensenews.com/top-100/


its not propaganda and delsuion .... its reality ..... TURKEY IS MORE THAN YOU KNOW

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and what about China ? Russian-Ukranian and NATO technology 

-- Russia designed , tested and gave Z10 Attack Helicopter to China
-- HQ9 Air Defense System = the HQ-9 was developed with Russian assistance and benefits from Russian technology transfers
-- Israel gave Jet Fighter Technology to China
U.S. Says Israel Gave Combat Jet Plans to China
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-28/news/mn-13774_1_combat-planes

-- Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China ,,, Secret U.S. missile and electro-optics technology was transferred to China recently by Israel
https://www.defensetech.org/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china/


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## MMM-E

rcrmj said:


> you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````



TURKEY can make 4th gen Fighter as good as even F-16 Block70 ...

TURKISH F-16 BLOCK-70 MODERNIZATION







,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Turkish Aerospace Industries has enough base, experience and technological-readness

I am saying again Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) produced under license F16 Fighter Jets and General Electric F110-GE-100 Engines for more than 25 years

and now Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) design , develops and manifantures its own platforms

TAI ANKA UCAV




TAI HURKUS TRAINER and LIGHT ATTACK AIRCRAFT




TAI T-625 5 ton class UTILITY HELICOPTER




,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

also Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) started to develop another new weapons until 2023

TAI ATAK-2 ATTACK HELICOPTER




TAI 10 ton class UTILITY HELICOPTER




TAI HURJET New Generation Basic Trainer and Close-Air Support / Light Strike Jet




TAI TFX 5th gen stealth Fighter Jet




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btw 10 Turkish Companies produce critical parts of the F35 Fighter Jet and F135 Engine , including Center Fuselage and Bliks-Spool technology






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## MMM-E

Tank131 said:


> The Pak military has said a lot of things and it for domestic consumption. They said the Buraq UAV and Barq Missile are Pakistani, based on CH-3, when we all know that the only thing that is Pakistani were the hands that opened the kits and assembled them. There is a possibility that Pakistan may be manufacturing them, but they are the CH-3 UAV and AR-1 Missile to be sure.
> 
> The reality is that IF Pakistan wants to get into the 5th gen fighter game, there are 4 ways.
> 
> 1. BUY a solution off the shelf. This means acquiring a product in production ala F-16. The only option at this point could be J-20 as J-31 may never be produced for China. TFX could be am option in the future, but there is not much beyond comcepts currently. PAF cannot afford to be the only buyer of a design unless it has some control over the project. It is too risky amd costly unless the home nation is also acquiring the type. The KAI/IA KFX may also be am option in the future but will likely be under a lot of US influence.
> 
> 2. JOINT VENTURE: this could entail PAF being the sole initial buyer for the type (as it was in JF-17) because it allows for some control of the project. J-31 is ideal for this but TFX is a possibility.
> 
> 3. R&D from scratch. But Pakistan has very little experience in the aviation sector. Further more it has no experience in aeronautical design and zero experience in engine design or manufacturing. This would be a decades long endeavor culminating likely in 2040s
> 
> 4. Contracting out the R&D while maintaining IP of the part and technology. This could include acquiring a project wholesale as the Turks did when they bought the Agusta Mangusta project amd turned it into the TAI ATAK. They took a project that was complete and bough the technology and IP for it, allowing them to jump to the end of the project. This is likely (imho) what project AZM will turn out to be. Pakistan will probably buy out the IP for a design (like J-31). China has shown little to no interest in it, but development it continuing on a rapid pace. Pakistan (the most logical launch customer has discussed it in passing). My suspicion it that J-31 will become F-31 for Project AZM. They may further contract out other subsystems when it comes under their control (like more J-20 subsystems or engine from Turkey (ala EJ200 Variant that turkey plans to acquire)). Pakistan in my opinion will likely buy the J-31 program much like Turkey bought the Mangusta project. It may evem have financial backing to do so by the Arabs (which would be huge for Pakistan) in order to supply them unencumbered by western demands.



PAKISTAN buys Turkish-Italian TAI T129 Attack Helicopters

and PAKISTAN should join to Turkish TAI TFX 5th gen Fighter Jet Project ..first flight by 2023
TURKEY and UK will develop better Fighter Jet than Chinese J31

NATO Aircraft and Engine technology are always better than Chinese

also TAI TFX 5th gen Fighter Jet will have Turkish software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems ,, etc also Aselsan develops GaN based AESA Radar


---AYESAS and KALE in Aviation 
---TAI in Fuselage design and integration 
---ASELSAN in Avionics (AESA Radar)... Electronics,,,Mission Computer ,,Targeting Pod...Self protection Electronic Warfare Suite ,,, Identification friend or foe system..etc
---ROKETSAN , TUBITAK and MKEK in Weapon systems
---AYESAS and MILSOFT in Data Software 
---METEKSAN in National Data Links 

also Turkish KALE AERO and British ROLLS ROYCE will develop the national engine for TF-X

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...create-defence-aero-engine-joint-venture.aspx

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## MMM-E

pakistanipower said:


> Main problem with the TFX will be engines a version of (EF-200) which will bbe sanction prone



no any sanction prone ..... , Turkey intends to export the TFX. Intellectual property ownership of the design and the joint venture manufacturing of the turbofan engine (and export licenses) will be essential

Kale Group (Turkey ) will own 51% and Rolls-Royce 49% of the joint venture, which aims to develop aircraft engines for Turkey

I remind You In August 2016, the Pakistani Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told Pakistan’s state-owned television network PTV that Turkey invited Pakistan to take part in the TFX program

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## Dungeness

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Absolutely. Original design, but with strong external support.



It depends if the "original design" comes in on a piece of restaurant napkin or on a truck load of blue prints.



rcrmj said:


> not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source
> 
> and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
> If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
> assembly
> extension work
> upgrade
> R&D
> 
> Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic
> 
> thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago
> 
> 
> to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
> the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.
> 
> so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!
> 
> so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````
> 
> between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion




Nowadays, every John and Joe thinks he is just as capable of creating a 5th gen fighter jet from ground up, since even Chinese could do it.

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## MMM-E

rcrmj said:


> more of Turkish propaganda and usual China bashing materials``
> 
> there is only two countries that has a complete R&D capability, U.S and China, (Soviet was the one before China)
> and few countries that excel in respective fields: U.K, Russia and France
> and few countries that excel in material and machine tools techs: Japan, Germany and Holland
> and few countries that have good system integration capabilities in respective field: Israel, Sweden
> 
> Turkey is no body, it is capable of assembly, forget about ground breaking and systematic R&D
> 
> Military high tech field is quite clear and ordered, you'd know the true landscape once your are in the circle```no matter how long the list you can make of Turkey "developed" weapon systems, but they are more of bought parts assembly and few extension works, Turkey is nobody at high tech defense field, fact
> 
> 
> forget about TFX, they have no technological know-how and readness to develop a 4th gen, let alone a 5th gen, not for 30 years they can make a flying one, no disrespect, but its a hard fact!
> 
> 
> 
> nothing comes funnier than these delusion`````the french came to offer their full pakage of aviation techs in exchange for our quantum techs, "that guy" replied (not actual words, but close in friendly way):" why would we trade the world's leading tech for something we already have and better?"
> 
> Turkey's rocket techs are full breed Chinese, it is the only field that Turkey can brag about ground R&D, but that is based on importing the entire production line, facilities and data pakages from China``````I guess we are too kind, unlike the West and America that only gives you assembly line````yet, you are still clueless to know that there are two Alps inbetween assembly and ground R&D



I am not compare Turkey with China , TURKEY needs more 10 years . then everybody will see Turkey is nobody or not

and almost all military technology was transferred to China by Russia, Ukraine and Israel ... still Chinese weapons has no high tech NATO quality

1..) SOM Cruise Missile , ATMACA Anti Ship Missile , CIRIT 70mm laser guided rocket, UMTAS anti Tank Missile MIZRAK Missile , TEMREN Missile , GOKTUG Air to Air Missile designed , developed and manifactured by ROKETSAN ..... nothing with Chinese

also AKBABA Anti-radiation Missile , Supersonic Anti ship Missile and GEZGIN Land and Naval based Cruise Missile are under development

also HGK , KGK and TEBER Smart Bombs ( 29-110 km ) and LGK Laser guided Missile have developed by TUBITAK-SAGE and ASELSAN

KALE AERO and ROKETSAN develops Engines including RAMJET for Missiles
TUBITAK has developed JP-10 type Missile Fuel which only a few countries developed in the World


2 .. ) ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) was designed ,developed and manifactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) ... nothing with The US or NATO

ASELSAN , ROKETSAN , METEKSAN have developed Software , Source codes , Flight control System , Electro-Optics ,SATCOM , SAR Radar , Laser guided Missiles , etc

TEI ( Turkish Engine Industries ) has developed TEI PD-170 Engine ( 170 hp ) for ANKA UAV-UCAV


The US blocked to sell Armed Drone ( UCAV ) to TURKEY and The US said that TURKEY can not develop Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in 30 years

but Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has developed ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in 9 years and by 2017 only The US,Israel,Turkey and China uses their own MALE Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in the World

and now Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) started to develop Stealth UCAV and New Generation Basic Trainer and Close-Air Support / Light Strike Jet ( mach 1,2 speed , 35.000 feet service ceiling ,3 tons payload ..... first flight by 2022 )

so Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) can develop 4th gen Fighter .... but 5th gen Fighter is another level ... so TAI develops 5th gen Fighter with British BAE Systems ( first fligh by 2023 and will be in service by 2029 ) and TAI TFX will be superior to Chinese J31



3 ...) ASELPOD Targeting Pod , MEHPOD Jamming Pod ,KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System , Airborne Stand off Jammer ,, Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suite (SPEWS ) , CATS (Common Aperture Targeting System) , IFF System , AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS) , Quantum-well Infrared Photodetectors , NANO Tecnology Microchip , GaN based AESA Radars , TORK Anti Torpedo hard kill System , DAKA Acoustic Torpedo Countermeasure Decoys , TBT-01 YAKAMOZ Sonar , AKKOR Active Protection System , Imaging Infrared Seeker for Missiles , Missile seeker Radar , HISAR Air Defense Systems ,, High energy LASER , Electromagnetic Rail Gun were developed by ASELSAN

*ASELSAN Research Center *




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btw Air to Air Missile technology , Electro-optics technology and Combat Aircraft technology ( American technology ) were transferred to China by Israel

Air Defense Systems technology , Anti Ship and Cruise Missile technology and Engine technology ( Soviet technology ) were transferred to China by Russia and Ukraine

even Russia designed developed tested and gave Z10 Attack Helicopter to China

NATO , Russia , Japan are far superior to China ..... China is good in replica , nothing else

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## Deino

*@Berkant *

*STOP these nationalistic propaganda and off-topic-posts. This is the thread on any possible FC-31-use in the PAF and not a Turkish-propaganda thread.*

*Take this as a warning.*

Deino

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## araz

Dungeness said:


> It depends if the "original design" comes in on a piece of restaurant napkin or on a truck load of blue prints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays, every John and Joe thinks he is just as capable of creating a 5th gen fighter jet from ground up, since even Chinese could do it.


That is an unfair comment. People always aspire to do well and better themselves. 
You have to understand that Turkey is a stake holder in the F35 programme. That will give them exposure and exposure in its own rights has value. Or have our Chinese brothers forgotten the joint collaboration between PAF and PLAAF which has borne fruit in various projects which China calls its own and looks at proudly. So just like you dont want the Chinese effort to be belittled, do not belittle the efforts that the Turks are making. The Chinese have launched their efforts into 5th generation fighters which are bearing fruits. Why not be happy at the efforts others are making. We will fall, get up and walk together. We will crawl, walk run and then fly together. There is no need to take offence at posts that you find wrong, just press the report button. 
Kind regards
A

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## HannibalBarca

What I love about this thread... is those who belittle were belittled by another a decade and half before when they seek to achieve what the other got... and a decade later acheived it... at least what they want you to believe...since the thing that they are proud of ( and should be) is yet not combat proven...

"The King always forget that he was also a baby... and forgot that a Prince is in the making..."

Best regards...

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## Dungeness

araz said:


> That is an unfair comment. People always aspire to do well and better themselves.
> You have to understand that Turkey is a stake holder in the F35 programme. That will give them exposure and exposure in its own rights has value. Or have our Chinese brothers forgotten the joint collaboration between PAF and PLAAF which has borne fruit in various projects which China calls its own and looks at proudly. So just like you dont want the Chinese effort to be belittled, do not belittle the efforts that the Turks are making. The Chinese have launched their efforts into 5th generation fighters which are bearing fruits. Why not be happy at the efforts others are making. We will fall, get up and walk together. We will crawl, walk run and then fly together. There is no need to take offence at posts that you find wrong, just press the report button.
> Kind regards
> A



Being on PDF for quite a few years, I have seen enough grandiose "plans" and "projects" that ended nowhere. Quite a few counties have announced their "plans" to build their own version of 5-gen fighter since J-20 surfaced in 2011, but we yet to see anything except for Japan's Shinshin demonstrator. So I tend to pay my respect more to the result than to the talk. 

A military enthusiast arrogantly dismissed Chinese military industries, which are tens of times larger than their biggest, so I just politely posted some information to supplement his knowledge deficit. There is no any hard feelings, so reporting is not warranted.

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## 武成王

It's good to see other countries develop their 5th generation fighters, China is an inspiration to them, this is one of the Chinese contribution to the world, an inspiring model, a part of soft power. Please applaud more, belittle less, to such efforts. Or just ignore troll, Or keep this thread clean.

Chinese fellows should have a mentality of tolerant super power, don't learn from pseudo power 2012, arguing over chicken feather and garlic skin.

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## araz

Dungeness said:


> Being on PDF for quite a few years, I have seen enough grandiose "plans" and "projects" that ended nowhere. Quite a few counties have announced their "plans" to build their own version of 5-gen fighter since J-20 surfaced in 2011, but we yet to see anything except for Japan's Shinshin demonstrator. So I tend to pay my respect more to the result than to the talk.
> 
> A military enthusiast arrogantly dismissed Chinese military industries, which are tens of times larger than their biggest, so I just politely posted some information to supplement his knowledge deficit. There is no any hard feelings, so reporting is not warranted.


There wqs no question to report. No one is denegradi g the Chinese efforts and they are wsll on their way to becoming a leading Superpower. So criticism is unwarranted. I merely pointed out that one ahould respect the ecforts of other nations. They might not be there at the moment but God willing will get there. The emphasis should be on learning from one another about the efforts of the respective countries. I would even criticize those who put down the HAL Tejas effort. If we give respect we will get respect back. As to Jingoism the posters will soon sift between diamond and coal so let the idiots rant and get banned.
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## MastanKhan

pher said:


> Japan spent 10 years and over $40 billion to come up with this 5th freak called Shinshin, what make turkey believe they can do a better job than japan? both financially and technologically. Now even pak members joint this brag contest by preaching their own 5th program, what a joke!!!
> 
> There is only a limit number of countries could produce 4th planes, much less could develop 5th. Europe couldn't, russian is struggling, what make turkey so confident? by assembling f16? indians also assemble s30 for years while counld't pull off their lca. There turks really elevate their braging skill to another level to even make indians look humble.
> 
> View attachment 440434
> 
> 
> View attachment 440435



Hi,

Pakistanis make big claims out of habbit---. The 5th gen aircraft is of a different dimension---.

Turkey may want to---but it has no experience in it---.

It has no industrial complex like that of Japan either.

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## royalharris

Everyone should keep a realistic point of view, don't belittle others nor flatter others
No one like te be belittled, but most of people like to be flattered, ultra compliment will make people drop to ground badly

Every nation can say you want to do everyting, just do it , wish you succeed
But before achieving it, pls do more, say less, especially don't compared PPT with others from time to time
We wish others grown up quickly, but it is boresome to compare a primay student with a graduation one

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## IblinI

Berkant said:


> thread is belong to my Pakistani brothers , not Chinese
> 
> and I am talking about only military ( 5th gen stealth Fighter projects )
> 
> why are Chinese guys so angry ? Pakistan has good relationship with both Turkey and China
> 
> if China gives the 5th gen stealth Fighter to Pakistan , then I will be so happy
> 
> maybe FC-31 and TFX will be future combat fleet for PAF ( Nightmare for Indian Air Force )
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


First of all, I do not think anyone here is angry, secondly please read the thread title again.
*SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF*

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## python-000

YuChen said:


> Yet he has stopped posting but you have continued for several pages of your list include a lots of trolling.
> @Deino ( another Chinese user from Germany )...


why you both bro's are fighting with each other you know Pakistan will never do any thing like that because of any thing you fight with each other you both are most precious & most reliable friends of Pakistan

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## Deino

@Berkant 

*Take this as a warning !!*

Shut up, stay on topic and PLEASE spare us this Turkish propaganda. 

This is a thread purely discussing the possible involvement, introduction and service of the FC-31 in Pakistan. Not related to the TFX, TAI or Your propaganda.

Your last posts have been reported to a moderator of this section and he will handle hat issue.

Deino

PS: and by the way, I'm not a German Chinese regardless You will claim.

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## araz

Deino said:


> @Berkant
> 
> *Take this as a warning !!*
> 
> Shut up, stay on topic and PLEASE spare us this Turkish propaganda.
> 
> This is a thread purely discussing the possible involvement, introduction and service of the FC-31 in Pakistan. Not related to the TFX, TAI or Your propaganda.
> 
> Your last posts have been reported to a moderator of this section and he will handle hat issue.
> 
> Deino
> 
> PS: and by the way, I'm not a German Chinese regardless You will claim.


MODS.
Please shu5 this thread down for a day or two. There is a lot of garbage and unrelated posts. That needs to be deleted and thread brought back to order.
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## The Eagle

Thread cleaned and appropriate action taken. Insults to MOD(s) or any other member as well, are not allowed. It has been requested many times and still, I repeat here too, do not feed any off-topic discussion or cause derailment as every reply results in giving a lifeline to the one that instigates. However, in case of any post that does not belongs to relevant to subject, please report button which is your friend and do not quote back. Derailing any thread is not allowed and members interested in other topics can please tag others in relevant and respective subject of discussion. Please stay on topic and enjoy discussion.

Regards,

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## monitor



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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistanis make big claims out of habbit---. The 5th gen aircraft is of a different dimension---.
> 
> Turkey may want to---but it has no experience in it---.
> 
> It has no industrial complex like that of Japan either.



Sir I respect your views no matter how negative they are, but 5th gen Jets are prepared by Human being not by spirits. Even in NASA and at other organisations many Pak work, some of them may come back if called upon like AQ Khan.
Turkey u should have known that due to EU access has much high level of tech base, they may easily get technology from EU countries if not from USA even Russia and China are open to them as they have brains with bulks. Turkish have the ability to get raw gadgets and improve them by themselves. They are not only assembling F16 but also preparing lot of hardware and software also. They have plans TFX jet shall certainly be of 5th gen. I wonder a guy like u do not believe in that. If Pakistan commits itself with FC31 project one should not be surprised if PAF starts to get them by start of 2019. Chinses are making wonders and Turkey is on same path with more options. The only missing area in which even Chinses are also not much successful is engine for which Turks have already started collaborations with EU countries.
On other PAF has also started a ten year aviation city project which shall be hub of all aeronautical work.Even Air University campus has started which is part of that project and Inshallah in next ten Years Pak shall rise and shine .


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I respect your views no matter how negative they are, but 5th gen Jets are prepared by Human being not by spirits. Even in NASA and at other organisations many Pak work, some of them may come back if called upon like AQ Khan.
> Turkey u should have known that due to EU access has much high level of tech base, they may easily get technology from EU countries if not from USA even Russia and China are open to them as they have brains with bulks. Turkish have the ability to get raw gadgets and improve them by themselves. They are not only assembling F16 but also preparing lot of hardware and software also. They have plans TFX jet shall certainly be of 5th gen. I wonder a guy like u do not believe in that. If Pakistan commits itself with FC31 project one should not be surprised if PAF starts to get them by start of 2019. Chinses are making wonders and Turkey is on same path with more options. The only missing area in which even Chinses are also not much successful is engine for which Turks have already started collaborations with EU countries.
> On other PAF has also started a ten year aviation city project which shall be hub of all aeronautical work.Even Air University campus has started which is part of that project and Inshallah in next ten Years Pak shall rise and shine .



Hi,

As usual---you are clueless to what you are writing---AQ Khan is a metalurgist of the 70's education---. Those engr's from nasa if they come back---where are they going to get the material from!!!

To climb the K2---first you have to prepare yourself to fear the slope of the mountain---then you have to learn to fear the mountain to DEFY death---and then have to count on your stars as well---and not to make a simple statement like---that people conquer K2---.

People don't conquer K2---exceptions conquer K2---.

Once you learn to appreciate that term---and begin to understand the task---then it can give you the perspective just to begin imagining about it---.

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## Raider 21

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I respect your views no matter how negative they are, but 5th gen Jets are prepared by Human being not by spirits.* Even in NASA and at other organisations many Pak work*, some of them may come back if called upon like AQ Khan.


Right about the NASA part, the JF-17 introduction team had an aerodynamics engineer from PAF....he moved to the US and started working for NASA....presently a professor at the Tuskegee University. 
https://www.tuskegee.edu/Content/Up...cademics/COE/Aerospace/Vita-MJK-2011-Web2.pdf

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## python-000

monitor said:


>


wow yr the J-31 v2 is dam GOOD option for PAF


----------



## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As usual---you are clueless to what you are writing---AQ Khan is a metallurgist of the 70's education---. Those engr's from nasa if they come back---where are they going to get the material from!!!
> 
> To climb the K2---first you have to prepare yourself to fear the slop of the then---then you have to learn to fear the mountain to DEFY death---and then have to count on your stars as well---and not to make a simple statement like---that people conquer K2---.
> 
> People don't conquer K2---exceptions conquer K2---.
> 
> Once you learn to appreciate that term---and begin to understand the task---then it can give you the perspective just to begin imagining about it---.



Sir at least one retired person who worked in NASA project remained my teacher for one semester. My points were not baseless as you think. In 1995 one NASA scientist visited our school being past student of our school. Lot of material and perks shall be there when and if they will/shall come back once PAF project is materialized. Believe me still a per stature PAF has lot of technicians and aeronautical engineers. The numbers can be increased with enhanced requirements in few years by sending technicians and engineers to China and even Russia for advanced training. 

Sir for sake of your knowledge I have met people directly who have worked under supervision of the mentioned Metallurgist. The scientist as older he becomes is considered more valuable in west unlike Pakistan where we retire our scientists at age of 60 and majority of them then likes to settle abroad. Instead of such shit approach these scientists should be offered lucrative services in Universities in areas of applied Physics, Computer engineering and chemistry , believe me people are ready to serve country even in lesser perks but at least some respect should be given by our Govt. 


May be one day you should also come back to Pakistan and start at least a car show room.

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## The Eagle

> The air chief disclosed that Pakistan was currently working to manufacture next generation aircraft with the support of Chinese experts


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## IblinI

What does this mean, not a JV of FC-31?


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Sir at least one retired person who worked in NASA project remained my teacher for one semester. My points were not baseless as you think. In 1995 one NASA scientist visited our school being past student of our school. Lot of material and perks shall be there when and if they will/shall come back once PAF project is materialized. Believe me still a per stature PAF has lot of technicians and aeronautical engineers. The numbers can be increased with enhanced requirements in few years by sending technicians and engineers to China and even Russia for advanced training.
> 
> Sir for sake of your knowledge I have met people directly who have worked under supervision of the mentioned Metallurgist. The scientist as older he becomes is considered more valuable in west unlike Pakistan where we retire our scientists at age of 60 and majority of them then likes to settle abroad. Instead of such shit approach these scientists should be offered lucrative services in Universities in areas of applied Physics, Computer engineering and chemistry , believe me people are ready to serve country even in lesser perks but at least some respect should be given by our Govt.
> 
> 
> May be one day you should also come back to Pakistan and start at least a car show room.



Hi,

The problem with your posts are that you are TOO CASUAL in making big statements----we can do this and we can do that---.

For a 5th gen program----we would need 100's of PhD's in the related fields---highly qualified at that. 

Just like for our nuc program---we had those numbers to do the job---foreign qualified at that as well.

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## The Eagle

YuChen said:


> What does this mean, not a JV of FC-31?



For the time being and after reading different statements, it seems like that no joint venture but NGF for PAF by the help of friends.


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## Tank131

The Air Chief stated Pakistan will have an aircraft ready in 5 years time and that China is going to provide technical assistance to the aviation sector in Pakistan. From where i see it, the only way the project will bear an aircraft in 5 years is if PAF has bought the rights to J-31 or is acquiring full ToT for the J-31 and will subsequently produce its own aircraft. There is no way that Pakistan with limited resources will be able to 1)learn how to design and aircraft let alone a 5th gen one, 2) learn how to design, manufacture, and mass produce a modern jet engine, 3)develop top notch avionics including radar, ECCM, ECM ect.

What it could do is scrounge up enough money to acquire the project en whole like Turks did with ATAK and get the chinese to teach them as they go. That is still a great option /accomplishment, and has been the pattern with Azmat FAC, Zarb, Buarraq UAV and Barq Missile. They buy the production rights and develop their own variants by the second generation of the system. The chinese infact started the exact same way. Infact the JF-17 is the first aircraft completely built in Chinese know how (J-10 has clear Lavi design themes albeit may only have been a stepping stone).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> The Air Chief stated Pakistan will have an aircraft ready in 5 years time and that China is going to provide technical assistance to the aviation sector in Pakistan. From where i see it, the only way the project will bear an aircraft in 5 years is if PAF has bought the rights to J-31 or is acquiring full ToT for the J-31 and will subsequently produce its own aircraft. There is no way that Pakistan with limited resources will be able to 1)learn how to design and aircraft let alone a 5th gen one, 2) learn how to design, manufacture, and mass produce a modern jet engine, 3)develop top notch avionics including radar, ECCM, ECM ect.
> 
> What it could do is scrounge up enough money to acquire the project en whole like Turks did with ATAK and get the chinese to teach them as they go. That is still a great option /accomplishment, and has been the pattern with Azmat FAC, Zarb, Buarraq UAV and Barq Missile. They buy the production rights and develop their own variants by the second generation of the system. The chinese infact started the exact same way. Infact the JF-17 is the first aircraft completely built in Chinese know how (J-10 has clear Lavi design themes albeit may only have been a stepping stone).


The ACM could have also meant first prototype (or demonstrator) in 5 years.


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The ACM could have also meant first prototype (or demonstrator) in 5 years.



Be it prototype, tech demonstrator or production model, i think the critques all hold true. I honestly believe that the best way forward for AvDI in Pakistan is to acquire the rights for J-31 and gain the technical know how to build aircraft through this. Then develop your tech based on the variations and modifications you make to the existing systems. The Chinese did the exact same thing acquiring Mig-19 and developed that into the venerable F-6 and A-5 and FT-6. They took the Mig-21 amd made the F-7, JL-9 and even gave a basis for the J-8.

Pakistan can take the J-31, make it the FC-31 and give rise to a new variation of the aircraft.

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## The Accountant

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The ACM could have also meant first prototype (or demonstrator) in 5 years.


I think we can't even produce demonstrator model in 5 years ... 5 years will be consumed only in the establishment of infrastructure required ... In JF17 the design research was done by Chinese whereas Pakistani's input was mostly towards the performance criterias ... 3 years back we were even running to Chinese to redesign our Mirage rebuild factory into thunder's R&M factory ... As of now our capabilities are very limited

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Dnt know why our todays jet have very low ground clearance, jf17 has very small height from ground likewise j31 has even more smaller :-/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Dnt know why our todays jet have very low ground clearance, jf17 has very small height from ground likewise j31 has even more smaller :-/


But FC-31 also has an internal payload bay, so the lower ground clearance isn't an issue as the munition will in reality be stored well above that (within the bay).

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## messiach

Good. Cat is finally out @Quwa

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> Good. Cat is finally out @Quwa


Still some uncertainty. The PAF has two routes: (1) Accelerate with an off-the-shelf FC-31 purchase with local licensed manufacturing of airframe and platform access for custom subsystem and weapons integration. (2) Original design (in collaboration with China), which enables for investing in Pakistan's design and R&D capacities. 

While (2) is certainly riskier and requires more time, but it will result in raising human capital, establishing R&D infrastructure, etc that will come in handy for the very long-term. (2) also means a chance for Pakistan to own most of the IP and to profit off it the most.


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## kurutoga

Originally design is just too expensive. Minimal 5 billion USD, plus production cost. Easily a 7-8 billion project. Almost one full year of Pak defense budget.


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## MastanKhan

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Dnt know why our todays jet have very low ground clearance, jf17 has very small height from ground likewise j31 has even more smaller :-/



Hi,

That is a very important question that you asked---.

The Paf screwed up big time---it did not realize that it would have Ra'ad missile in its inventory down the road when it designed the JF17---. 

But it should have known about it---just like the F16---the original design never had enough space under the belly for a large missile---like the Mirage's.

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## Thorough Pro

I am sure you pulled these 7-8 billion Dollar figure from your Dollar an hour stinky indian arse 



kurutoga said:


> Originally design is just too expensive. Minimal 5 billion USD, plus production cost. Easily a 7-8 billion project. Almost one full year of Pak defense budget.


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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> I am sure you pulled these 7-8 billion Dollar figure from your Dollar an hour stinky indian arse


That was an uncalled for statement. The fact remains that unless work has been ongoing for the last 5-10 years, or PAC has bought the rights to local production of J31, the time line seems a bit too good to believe. HOwevewr, the two provisos which I have pointed out may well be why Madam Messiach has pointed to the cat being out of the bag.PAF has a history of collaboration with CATIC which may be where one needs to look for for our next production. The extent of collaboration will also be a massive input from the Chinese although as compared to JFT it may well be slightly less. The engine remains a problem unless the Chinese are making tangible headway into mastering the engine technology. So quite a few hurdles to cross still.

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## Akasa

messiach said:


> Good. Cat is finally out @Quwa



Any insight from your end as to what Project Azm involves? FC-31 or a clean-sheet design?


----------



## 帅的一匹



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## UniverseWatcher

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 442226


what a beauty


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## 帅的一匹

DjSmg said:


> what a beauty


Next I want it the same paint job as J20.

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## MastanKhan

SinoSoldier said:


> Any insight from your end as to what Project Azm involves? FC-31 or a clean-sheet design?



Hi,

It would really be a surprise if it is not the FC31---. A new item is a 15 plus years project---.

FC31 is within 5 years time period---.

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## monitor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would really be a surprise if it is not the FC31---. A new item is a 15 plus years project---.
> 
> FC31 is within 5 years time period---.




What's your opinion Pakistan should wait 15 years for her own baby or customized FC-31 as per PAF requirment and induct a fifth generation fighter within 5_6 years.

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## MastanKhan

monitor said:


> What's your opinion Pakistan should wait 15 years for her own baby or customized FC-31 as per PAF requirment and induct a fifth generation fighter within 5_6 years.



Hi,

The only requirement for a weapon of death and destruction is that it is potent---.

There is no such thing as " own " baby anymore---.

This is the day and age and time of " Joint Ventures ". 

Those who succeed---if you look at their overall results---you will find that they had better " team work "---" work load was well distributed and SHARED "---.

Sharing is the shortest road to " SUCCESS".

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would really be a surprise if it is not the FC31---. A new item is a 15 plus years project---.
> 
> *FC31 is within 5 years time period---.*


Let's put the 5th-gen stuff aside and look at the FC-31 for it actually offers: 8,000 kg payload, twin engine, 2,000 kg concealable, apparent ability for low-level penetration flight, AESA radar and integrated EOTS. If that alone is available and fully usable from 2023, then I'd be surprised if the PAF would skip that in favour of the Mirage ROSE and Mirage 5PA in the strike and maritime operations role, respectively.

Just imagine the idea of equipping 2 Ra'ad II ALCM or 2 AShM in the internal bay and then super-cruising at low-altitude to launch points over land or sea, then firing, and then being gone by the time the adversary tries intercepting your munitions.

Even if one wants to develop a separate FGF, fine, but it'd be wildly curious to keep flying the Mirage ROSE and -5PA when you could have the FC-31, even as a bridge or interim fighter until the PAC FGF comes online.

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## Ahmet Pasha

On a side note.
Your premium is a good step but I think u r too straighforward with the fee. If you make it something like $x.99 thats better cuz its a psychological thing. People think it costs less with .99
(I really wanted to PM you but I dnt knw how )


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Let's put the 5th-gen stuff aside and look at the FC-31 for it actually offers: 8,000 kg payload, twin engine, 2,000 kg concealable, apparent ability for low-level penetration flight, AESA radar and integrated EOTS. If that alone is available and fully usable from 2023, then I'd be surprised if the PAF would skip that in favour of the Mirage ROSE and Mirage 5PA in the strike and maritime operations role, respectively.
> 
> Just imagine the idea of equipping 2 Ra'ad II ALCM or 2 AShM in the internal bay and then super-cruising at low-altitude to launch points over land or sea, then firing, and then being gone by the time the adversary tries intercepting your munitions.
> 
> Even if one wants to develop a separate FGF, fine, but it'd be wildly curious to keep flying the Mirage ROSE and -5PA when you could have the FC-31, even as a bridge or interim fighter until the PAC FGF comes online.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Let's put the 5th-gen stuff aside and look at the FC-31 for it actually offers: 8,000 kg payload, twin engine, 2,000 kg concealable, apparent ability for low-level penetration flight, AESA radar and integrated EOTS. If that alone is available and fully usable from 2023, then I'd be surprised if the PAF would skip that in favour of the Mirage ROSE and Mirage 5PA in the strike and maritime operations role, respectively.
> 
> Just imagine the idea of equipping 2 Ra'ad II ALCM or 2 AShM in the internal bay and then super-cruising at low-altitude to launch points over land or sea, then firing, and then being gone by the time the adversary tries intercepting your munitions.
> 
> Even if one wants to develop a separate FGF, fine, but it'd be wildly curious to keep flying the Mirage ROSE and -5PA when you could have the FC-31, even as a bridge or interim fighter until the PAC FGF comes online.



Hi,

I believe that the FC31 is going to be be a lot more advanced than a lots of people are thinking---.

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## Trango Towers

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe that the FC31 is going to be be a lot more advanced than a lots of people are thinking---.


For once I agree. The negative aspect is people perception of made in China. Yet China has advanced significantly

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## fasiiih

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Let's put the 5th-gen stuff aside and look at the FC-31 for it actually offers: 8,000 kg payload, twin engine, 2,000 kg concealable, apparent ability for low-level penetration flight, AESA radar and integrated EOTS. If that alone is available and fully usable from 2023, then I'd be surprised if the PAF would skip that in favour of the Mirage ROSE and Mirage 5PA in the strike and maritime operations role, respectively.
> 
> Just imagine the idea of equipping 2 Ra'ad II ALCM or 2 AShM in the internal bay and then super-cruising at low-altitude to launch points over land or sea, then firing, and then being gone by the time the adversary tries intercepting your munitions.
> 
> Even if one wants to develop a separate FGF, fine, but it'd be wildly curious to keep flying the Mirage ROSE and -5PA when you could have the FC-31, even as a bridge or interim fighter until the PAC FGF comes online.



Also add engine commonality between JF-17 & FC-31 to this list, simplyfying logistics & maintenance.

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## Trango Towers

fasiiih said:


> Also add engine commonality between JF-17 & FC-31 to this list, simplyfying logistics & maintenance.


But the smoke issue on the engine has to be fixed going forward with overhaul and maintenance to be done in Pakistan


----------



## Clutch

snow lake said:


> But the smoke issue on the engine has to be fixed going forward with overhaul and maintenance to be done in Pakistan




Smoke is the least of the issue...

The range of the aircraft abysmal... just 770 miles is less than half of most Aircrafts out there 5th Gen.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Clutch said:


> Smoke is the least of the issue...
> 
> The range of the aircraft abysmal... just 770 miles is less than half of most Aircrafts out there 5th Gen.


I read somewhere about naval variant probably bigger in size , may be it can carries more internal fuel ??? 
R thy making any naval variant ???


----------



## messiach

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 442226


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Blue Marlin Several member has asked the same Q, I am not with chengdu now, this process has been under various stages of discussions since 2005. I have looked at different LiftC vs AoA analysis for three different models, so lets see which is accepted.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Blue Marlin Several member has asked the same Q, I am not with chengdu now, this process has been under various stages of discussions since 2005. I have looked at different LiftC vs AoA analysis for three different models, so lets see which is accepted.


The PAC Chairman had also called on the private sector to invest in domestic gas turbine and engine development work in 2016 (link). We (in the public) will have to wait and see how much of that figures in the FGF and/or UAV, but it's not a coincidence that ACM Sohail Aman has overtly been emphasizing indigenization. In previous years, the PAF CAS have been forthright in mentioning China as a supplier, but I think the idea is now shifting to partner (e.g. similar to UK-US efforts) and building the domestic industry.



> He stressed the need for exploring possibilities of collaboration in the defence industry and identified four areas as a way forward for the private sector in the defence-related aviation sector — upgrade of PAC Kamra for manufacturing of auto parts, commercial engines and industrial gas turbines and calibration of equipment.

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## Akasa

messiach said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Blue Marlin Several member has asked the same Q, I am not with chengdu now, this process has been under various stages of discussions since 2005. I have looked at different LiftC vs AoA analysis for three different models, so lets see which is accepted.



Are all 3 models from the same institute or country? Or is it like another CAC vs SAC competition?


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## messiach

Same institute. Which country, for that you should wait.



SinoSoldier said:


> Are all 3 models from the same institute or country? Or is it like another CAC vs SAC competition?



This is not a separate project. It should be considered as an arm and extension. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAC Chairman had also called on the private sector to invest in domestic gas turbine and engine development work in 2016 (link). We (in the public) will have to wait and see how much of that figures in the FGF and/or UAV, but it's not a coincidence that ACM Sohail Aman has overtly been emphasizing indigenization. In previous years, the PAF CAS have been forthright in mentioning China as a supplier, but I think the idea is now shifting to partner (e.g. similar to UK-US efforts) and building the domestic industry.
> ​

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## Akasa

messiach said:


> Same institute. Which country, for that you should wait.



Interesting, since this suggests that the Azm project is a new design, rather than a direct adaptation of the FC-31 or an existing fighter, and that three designs are in contention.


----------



## messiach

I have not named the country or a particular aircraft. 



SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting, since this suggests that the Azm project is a new design, rather than a direct adaptation of the FC-31 or an existing fighter, and that three designs are in contention.


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## Maxpane

any news about fc 31


----------



## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Maxpane said:


> any news about fc 31


Kaala dhuaan marta ha bhut


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## Ultima Thule

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Kaala dhuaan marta ha bhut


But with RD-93 , with new WS-13 on V2 there is no/ minimal smoke

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## Deino

That is maybe interesting...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943739291749949440

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## Maxpane




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## mzeeshanfahd

Maxpane said:


>


unable to see images


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## Maxpane

dnt know why isnt it showing


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## Cookie Monster

messiach said:


> I have not named the country or a particular aircraft.


Bro u r teasing us all. I'm dying to find out something/anything about project Azm.


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## Maxpane

25591754_773535902816906_1443906951385177766_n.jpg

25591891_773535909483572_3902226137038001368_n.jpg

25659331_773535962816900_8854587379269256936_n.jpg

25659383_773536009483562_4928597838387945616_n.jpg

25659560_773535969483566_1853339933919565223_n.jpg

26055615_773535959483567_4390128954503641477_n


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## rizhussain44

Maxpane said:


> 25591754_773535902816906_1443906951385177766_n.jpg
> 
> 25591891_773535909483572_3902226137038001368_n.jpg
> 
> 25659331_773535962816900_8854587379269256936_n.jpg
> 
> 25659383_773536009483562_4928597838387945616_n.jpg
> 
> 25659560_773535969483566_1853339933919565223_n.jpg
> 
> 26055615_773535959483567_4390128954503641477_n




Can't see the images... seems the stealth tech is really working

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## Maxpane

sir i tried m best 


rizhussain44 said:


> Can't see the images... seems the stealth tech is really working



https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=strategical journal

hope it will work

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## Muhammad Omar



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## Maxpane

i tried to post these pics but didnt work


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## rambro

Maxpane said:


> i tried to post these pics but didnt work


Screenshot n post


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Maxpane said:


> i tried to post these pics but didnt work


U can take screen shots of those pics ,crop them and then post thm it works


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## Fledgingwings

It requires alot of Payola to bring this aircraft into pakistan.with ever climbing rate of debts from IMF, I wonder If and When?


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## Maxpane

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> U can take screen shots of those pics ,crop them and then post thm it works


take a lot of time tell me shortcut

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## Tank131

FC-31 is looking much larger than I initially thought.


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## 中国士兵

F-31电子设备肯定很先进。中国这几年空军慢慢超越了俄罗斯，还在赶超美国。


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## rcrmj

中国士兵 said:


> F-31电子设备肯定很先进。中国这几年空军慢慢超越了俄罗斯，还在赶超美国。


兄弟是哪里来的？ 铁血、天涯、超大、新浪还是其它论坛的···
oh, btw, you have to post in English, not many people here read Chinese, even half of the Chinese members here cant read Chinese



snow lake said:


> For once I agree. The negative aspect is people perception of made in China. Yet China has advanced significantly


stereotype carries no weight of reality

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## The Eagle

中国士兵 said:


> F-31电子设备肯定很先进。中国这几年空军慢慢超越了俄罗斯，还在赶超美国。



Translation would be appreciated. Also, note that use of regional language/other than English, is not allowed for the ease of members.

Regards,

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## The SC

The Eagle said:


> Translation would be appreciated. Also, note that use of regional language/other than English, is not allowed for the ease of members.
> 
> Regards,


It says:

"F-31 electronic equipment is certainly very advanced. Over the past few years, China's air force has surpassed Russia and is still overtaking the United States."

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## python-000

by the way there was a rummer circulate around the country that Pakistan testing J-31 in Pakistani soil is it true & what is the status of this is there any contract signed between Pakistan China.


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## araz

python-000 said:


> by the way there was a rummer circulate around the country that Pakistan testing J-31 in Pakistani soil is it true & what is the status of this is there any contract signed between Pakistan China.


No and No.
A


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## TOPGUN

Muhammad Omar said:


>



Can't wait to see it in PAF colors inshallah !!

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## Karachikid

TOPGUN said:


> Can't wait to see it in PAF colors inshallah !!


Yes that SUV would look great in green and white 



Karachikid said:


> Yes that SUV would look great in green and white


Jokes aside, this bird looks larger than I had thought. I'm unsure if its fuselage/paint is as advanced as US technology but body curves/angles and concealed weaponry sure improves radar imprint. I'm still concerned about the ferry range though airborne refueling should help a bit.


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## Ahmet Pasha

China has harnesed it's talent pool that had moved to West for it's own beefit. Yet Pakistan is still sleeping.


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## S10

Ahmet Pasha said:


> China has harnesed it's talent pool that had moved to West for it's own beefit. Yet Pakistan is still sleeping.


It's really strange how Pakistan seems to be stuck. If you walk into any engineering faculty at Ivy League colleges in US, you will mostly hear students speaking in Chinese, Farsi and Urdu. Pakistan has failed to produce a stable political environment for its large pool of oversea talents to return. Due to corruption and poor security situation, its economic growth has been held back.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

S10 said:


> It's really strange how Pakistan seems to be stuck. If you walk into any engineering faculty at Ivy League colleges in US, you will mostly hear students speaking in Chinese, Farsi and Urdu. Pakistan has failed to produce a stable political environment for its large pool of oversea talents to return. Due to corruption and poor security situation, its economic growth has been held back.


It's not even the environment. Let's say the environment is bad, then what is to stop the Pakistani government from creating gated communities with simplified tax-rates, decent wages, etc? If you're going to spend on defence R&D, then you can connect the labour-end as well and manage it properly. This is true for China as well. It wasn't as if China was always a great place to live, some olive branches had to have been given to Chinese expatriates.

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## Tank131

Well there are a few major structural issues, that if resolved, could encourage expats to return back.

1. People paying their taxes allows government to collect a lump sum to pay its debts and invest in development.

2. Corruption ending measures allows consumer confidence and people to have hope that they will get a fair shake. People will create new companies if allowed and are sure they wont be pushed out of what they created because some jackass with connections wants it,

3. Ending camera system and preventing nepotism will allow common man to have equal rights before the court instead of thuggish children of the rich being allowed to murder whomever they please and daddy threatening poor families into forgiving them and the courts allowing it.

Fix these and it will go a long way into expats returning.

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## MrSato1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not even the environment. Let's say the environment is bad, then what is to stop the Pakistani government from creating gated communities with simplified tax-rates, decent wages, etc? If you're going to spend on defence R&D, then you can connect the labour-end as well and manage it properly. This is true for China as well. It wasn't as if China was always a great place to live, some olive branches had to have been given to Chinese expatriates.


I wouldn’t really compare Pakistan’s situation to China’s, especially based on the points brought up. I wouldn’t credit Chinese returnees for China’s successes. CHINA was always a safe place to live for its nationals bar fear of Communism for overseas Chinese. Even then the ones that did return especially the famous ex nasa rocket engineer return regardless of China’s situation in the mids of the great famine, he was a patriotic Chinese though American reared. Overseas Chinese on a whole Only “returned” because China’s was growing, China didn’t grow because they returned. Furthermore Chinese borned student that return are mostly those who already would have returned because they had hight expectations of the West only for it to be no different from home expect when it comes to politics in which they are not interested in either way. They saw violence rape shootings, police brutality etc with democracy which they don’t care for vs peace of mind and cultural accept in China with communism which they cared for!

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## 帅的一匹

FC31 V2 credit to @Deino

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## GriffinsRule

Looks like two different planes. One has a single piece canopy, while the other has a two piece one.


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## 帅的一匹

GriffinsRule said:


> Looks like two different planes. One has a single piece canopy, while the other has a two piece one.


V2 seems much bigger.


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## Ultima Thule

GriffinsRule said:


> Looks like two different planes. One has a single piece canopy, while the other has a two piece one.


Second pics of V1, and first V2


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## GriffinsRule

pakistanipower said:


> Second pics of V1, and first V2



The opposite actually. The 2 piece canopy is the newer version.

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## Ultima Thule

GriffinsRule said:


> The opposite actually. The 2 piece canopy is the newer version.



https://goo.gl/images/8gwgYh
Single piece one is V2, two piece one is V1 look at image link


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## python-000

wanglaokan said:


> V2 seems much bigger.


i love FC-31 v2 much more then J-20, Cant wait to see this fighter in PAF colours in a big numbers

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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> https://goo.gl/images/8gwgYh
> Single piece one is V2, two piece one is V1 look at image link


Sorry but how can you say that the canopy is single or 2 piece when in the second picture it is not on! I did not understand this one.
Regards
A


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## MiG-35-BD

I think the best product for Azm 5th gen project would be to use the parts bin, front section of the J-31, and the FCS, layout of the J-20. Make it single engined (WS-15). 

But simplify it with no canards, and the rear twin "V tail" providing F-23 like dual control surfaces. Instead of the canards, use a larger LERX. This would create an airframe with phenomenal supercruise and range. not to mention, it would be inherently a more stealthy design than any other 5th gen. 

just my layman thoughts.

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## SherDil

S10 said:


> It's really strange how Pakistan seems to be stuck. If you walk into any engineering faculty at Ivy League colleges in US, you will mostly hear students speaking in Chinese, Farsi and Urdu. Pakistan has failed to produce a stable political environment for its large pool of oversea talents to return. Due to corruption and poor security situation, its economic growth has been held back.



True.


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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> Sorry but how can you say that the canopy is single or 2 piece when in the second picture it is not on! I did not understand this one.
> Regards
> A


Hi I think in second picture first part of canapoy is already laid down as well in first one it’s a full 
Single piece I assume so hope not wrong
Thx


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## Ultima Thule

araz said:


> Sorry but how can you say that the canopy is single or 2 piece when in the second picture it is not on! I did not understand this one.
> Regards
> A


Look at the second picture just behind the nosecone there is a second piece in front of canopy whereas in the first picture there is no second piece in front of canopy
Regard


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## mingle

This plane looks bigger in size or just close up.


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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> This plane looks bigger in size or just close up.


Bigger than V1

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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> Look at the second picture just behind the nosecone there is a second piece in front of canopy whereas in the first picture there is no second piece in front of canopy
> Regard


The first picture is a single peice canopy.


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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> Look at the second picture just behind the nosecone there is a second piece in front of canopy whereas in the first picture there is no second piece in front of canopy
> Regard


Got it. Thanks. 
A


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## mzeeshanfahd

pla-mkii said:


> I think the best product for Azm 5th gen project would be to use the parts bin, front section of the J-31, and the FCS, layout of the J-20. Make it single engined (WS-15).
> 
> But simplify it with no canards, and the rear twin "V tail" providing F-23 like dual control surfaces. Instead of the canards, use a larger LERX. This would create an airframe with phenomenal supercruise and range. not to mention, it would be inherently a more stealthy design than any other 5th gen.
> 
> just my layman thoughts.



ahhh .... just like my guess in this post ....

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/project-azm-stealth-ambition-project.522011/page-15#post-10117116

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## UserUnknown2025



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## UserUnknown2025

The designer of the FC31 appeared on a talk show and revealed that the RCS of the plane is around 0.05 meter squared.

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## 帅的一匹

UserUnknown2025 said:


> The designer of the FC31 appeared on a talk show and revealed that the RCS of the plane is around 0.05 meter squared.


Same with F35


----------



## LKJ86



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## Raider 21

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 492338
> 
> 
> View attachment 492339
> View attachment 492340


The bottom jet looks like a YF-22 with X-35 intakes...


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## LKJ86

Knuckles said:


> The bottom jet looks like a YF-22 with X-35 intakes...


FC-31 V1


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## LeGenD

wanglaokan said:


> Same with F35


True RCS of F-35, F-22 and B-2 is classified. Figures floating around on the web, are not verified.

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## Raider 21

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 V1


I'm well aware...just pointing out the similarities.

Cheers !!!


----------



## LKJ86



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## Readerdefence

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 496306
> View attachment 496300
> View attachment 496301
> View attachment 496302


Hi my friend if possible to translate it into English point wise will be appreciated
Thank you


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## Trailer23

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend if possible to translate it into English point wise will be appreciated


That's a whole lotta translating to cover...


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## Sucha Kuggu

SUPARCO said:


> Can't imagine Pakistan buying a Chinese fighter aircraft that the Chinese won't buy themselves unless it's designed specifically for Pakistan like the FC-1 Fierce Dragon / JF-17 Thunder.


My be insider know better but do you thing China is so dying for Pakistan to do that solely for Pakistan, This very much like CPEC that Pakistan thinks it for them only may be (20/80 Pak/China). It always good to be optimistic but as far as army is concerned I have no doubt, but if you see Chines projects in Punjab they had just lotted us, after offer rainbows of transportation Metros and Line which soled to us.
in Urdu we call it if you want to be optimistic also be "mera ban na ban , apna tu ban"


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## Readerdefence

Trailer23 said:


> That's a whole lotta translating to cover...


Hi it’s true but then it’s useless if you cannot understand specifically on this forum
Thank you


----------



## pzfz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not even the environment. Let's say the environment is bad, then what is to stop the Pakistani government from creating gated communities with simplified tax-rates, decent wages, etc? If you're going to spend on defence R&D, then you can connect the labour-end as well and manage it properly. This is true for China as well. It wasn't as if China was always a great place to live, some olive branches had to have been given to Chinese expatriates.



People overplay the security situation card AND the expat card in a high tech development setup. None of these engineers will be working on the side of the road or in an high visibility environment - they're going to be working in a closed setup in the middle of nowhere where they are protected (see the nuclear program). Pak's lack of development in high tech industry is the result of the usual myopia, laziness, corruption, overall lack of vision which translates into the incompetence you see today. Have a vision, set some verifiable goals, enact and implement proper economic and tech levers (just the start) and you'll have something, anything, after a while. As long as defense production and defense tech positions are military controlled and babu staffed thinking that it's a place to retire or a way for paid overseas trips nothing is going to change. Fresh and innovative thinking are anathema to a status-quo preferring military. Pak can't even recognize that there is a problem, how is going to begin solving it?

Even with the supposed necessity of security Pak still wouldn't have progressed. Even without the security, Pak could've (and could still) still progressed if it had a coherent and actionable strategy.

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## TOTUU

pzfz said:


> People overplay the security situation card AND the expat card in a high tech development setup. None of these engineers will be working on the side of the road or in an high visibility environment - they're going to be working in a closed setup in the middle of nowhere where they are protected (see the nuclear program). Pak's lack of development in high tech industry is the result of the usual myopia, laziness, corruption, overall lack of vision which translates into the incompetence you see today. Have a vision, set some verifiable goals, enact and implement proper economic and tech levers (just the start) and you'll have something, anything, after a while. As long as defense production and defense tech positions are military controlled and babu staffed thinking that it's a place to retire or a way for paid overseas trips nothing is going to change. Fresh and innovative thinking are anathema to a status-quo preferring military. Pak can't even recognize that there is a problem, how is going to begin solving it?
> 
> Even with the supposed necessity of security Pak still wouldn't have progressed. Even without the security, Pak could've (and could still) still progressed if it had a coherent and actionable strategy.


 I very much agree with you . Especially this sentence--“Have a vision, set some verifiable goals, enact and implement proper economic and tech levers (just the start) and you'll have something, anything, after a while.”----
China is did that , The United States, Japan, and Germany actually do the same . When we are backward and poor, learning others technology is more important than innovation.When we are students , our most important thing is to learn, not to innovate ，When we got to the university, we learn and innovative .


Gross domestic spending on R&D 
China very low , but slowly growing .
https://data.oecd.org/rd/gross-domestic-spending-on-r-d.htm


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## Fawadqasim1

Sucha Kuggu said:


> My be insider know better but do you thing China is so dying for Pakistan to do that solely for Pakistan, This very much like CPEC that Pakistan thinks it for them only may be (20/80 Pak/China). It always good to be optimistic but as far as army is concerned I have no doubt, but if you see Chines projects in Punjab they had just lotted us, after offer rainbows of transportation Metros and Line which soled to us.
> in Urdu we call it if you want to be optimistic also be "mera ban na ban , apna tu ban"


Those were not part of cpec those were requests of gungas 
That too on a very high markup rates i.e 8%.


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## Star Expedition

The SC said:


> Size matters:
> With J-20
> View attachment 112204
> 
> With J-16
> View attachment 112205
> 
> 
> It is also about the same size as the F-35, although with twin engines, while the f-35 is sigle engined.
> Is it an advantage?
> View attachment 112206



thanks for the beautiful pictures.
before J31, F35 is just a little chicken while F22 is big hen.
hahaha.

Pak FA is such a pretty. I hope we can get 10.

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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> Same with F35



F-35 has an RCS of 0.005m2


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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> F-35 has an RCS of 0.005m2


Who knows?


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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Who knows?



True, but at least the internet sources claim that. The real thing may be different. But, why would the FC-31 designer reveal something as classified as RCS on a tv show? Propaganda?

http://mil-embedded.com/guest-blogs/radar-cross-section-the-measure-of-stealth/


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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> True, but at least the internet sources claim that. The real thing may be different. But, why would the FC-31 designer reveal something as classified as RCS on a tv show? Propaganda?
> 
> http://mil-embedded.com/guest-blogs/radar-cross-section-the-measure-of-stealth/


You must know that FC-31 is for export.

Do you find such a tv show about J-20?


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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> You must know that FC-31 is for export.
> 
> Do you find such a tv show about J-20?



Still, such sensitive matters should not be discussed else who would buy it? Stealth should remain just that, export or no export.


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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Still, such sensitive matters should not be discussed else who would buy it? Stealth should remain just that, export or no export.


If no one knows how good FC-31 is, who would buy it?
The RCS of F-35 is told to be 0.005m2, and does it matter?


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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> If no one knows how good FC-31 is, who would buy it?
> The RCS of F-35 is told to be 0.005m2, and does it matter?



(F35) Estimated by some blog vs (FC-31) designer exposing the RCS to the world. Do you see the difference?


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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> (F35) Estimated by some blog vs (FC-31) designer exposing the RCS to the world. Do you see the difference?


RCS is a very complex stuff, and is changed with different angles.
You can almost get nothing from what the designer said, just like estimation from some blog.


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## BHarwana

Negotiations have started between China and Pakistan on FC-31. I don't know it will be JF-31 or FC-31 but the process has started.

There are no official news about it now but in coming days it will be there.

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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> Negotiations have started between China and Pakistan on FC-31. I don't know it will be JF-31 or FC-31 but the process has started.
> 
> There are no official news about it now but in coming days it will be there.


Are you sure?


----------



## BHarwana

LKJ86 said:


> Are you sure?


I am hearing reports for a month now. Hesitated in posting it but if any one else has more info please update.



BHarwana said:


> I am hearing reports for a month now. Hesitated in posting it but if any one else has more info please update.


J-20 exports has been banned completely I any country and J-31 has been offered that is what I am hearing.


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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> I am hearing reports for a month now. Hesitated in posting it but if any one else has more info please update.
> 
> 
> J-20 exports has been banned completely I any country and J-31 has been offered that is what I am hearing.


To be honest, the middle-weight FC-31 suits Pakistan better, and has better development potential than the light-weight JF-17.
Pakistan can develop its own aviation industry by designing and producting different upgraded versions of FC-31, just like Mig-21/J-7 to China.

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## Maxpane

Hm interesting news sir


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## Kompromat

J-31 lacks side bays. 



LKJ86 said:


> To be honest, the middle-weight FC-31 suits Pakistan better, and has better development potential than the light-weight JF-17.
> Pakistan can develop its own aviation industry by designing and producting different upgraded versions of FC-31, just like Mig-21/J-7 to China.


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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> J-31 lacks side bays.


Up to now, only the heavy-weight fighters (F-22 and J-20) have side bays.
F-35A/B/C, KF-X, and TF-X also have no side bays.

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## Maxpane

On which area there is still need to do work on fc 31?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

FC-31 would still be a great addition to Pakistan Airforce

The Production line will be 100% Used for Pakistani Order so it is a win win situation for Pakistani Goals

36 Planes would be great cover for lost F16 orders












Really looks bit like F15 from rear and stealth what else can you want in a plane


----------



## Kompromat

LKJ86 said:


> Up to now, only the heavy-weight fighters (F-22 and J-20) have side bays.
> F-35A/B/C, KF-X, and TF-X also have no side bays.




Buddy, PAF will not go for a fighter that can't protect itself. While J-31 can carry SRAAMs inside its centerline bay, but that means a reduction of 2 BVRAAMs in a typical mission.

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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Buddy, PAF will not go for a fighter that can't protect itself. While J-31 can carry SRAAMs inside its centerline bay, but that means a reduction of 2 BVRAAMs in a typical mission.


So, do you mean that the fifth-generation fighters that have no side bays cannot protect theirself, and Pakistan chooses to develop a heavy-weight one?

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## Amigator

Probably they will work in a tight formation alongwith Thunders block 3


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## Shabi1

Horus said:


> Buddy, PAF will not go for a fighter that can't protect itself. While J-31 can carry SRAAMs inside its centerline bay, but that means a reduction of 2 BVRAAMs in a typical mission.



I don't think this seems valid, because the JSF is supposed to carry AMRAAMs in center bay.


This J-31 model seems to have SD-10/PL-12s in center bay.

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## Kompromat

F-22 will escort F-35 
J-20 will escort J-31

Countries that only have the F-35 or J-31 will be left in the cold. Their capabilities will be halved as compared to both jets operated under the cover provided by Raptor or J-20. 

I hope you get my point. If China truly cares about Pakistan's Security it will clear J-20s for sale too because only J-31s will put us at a disadvantage against IAF or other future adversaries. 



LKJ86 said:


> So, do you mean that the fifth-generation fighters that have no side bays cannot protect theirself, and Pakistan chooses to develop a heavy-weight one?





Shabi1 said:


> I don't think this seems valid, because the JSF is supposed to carry AMRAAMs in center bay.
> 
> 
> This J-31 model seems to have SD-10/PL-12s in center bay.




You've clearly failed to understand what i stated above.

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## Shabi1

Horus said:


> F-22 will escort F-35
> J-20 will escort J-31
> 
> Countries that only have the F-35 or J-31 will be left in the cold. Their capabilities will be halved as compared to both jets operated under the cover provided by Raptor or J-20.
> 
> I hope you get my point. If China truly cares about Pakistan's Security it will clear J-20s for sale too because only J-31s will put us at a disadvantage against IAF or other future adversaries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've clearly failed to understand what i stated above.



JF-17s in air defense alert configuration carry 2 BVRAAMs and 2 SRAAMs, PAF seems to be happy with this ADA configuration. Same config on J-31 seems adequate. For stealth fighters the tactic is supposed to be shoot while undetected and then exit the theater. If the aggressor numbers out number a stealth it is better to delay engagements till reinforcements arrive. For PAF this is feasible because of proximity of threat areas to bases. Secondly aircraft can be detected even before they are in Pakistan airspace so ground control/AWACs can provide better threat assessment. Pakistan doesnt have huge coverage areas where assets have to operate independently just as have to be done by USA, China and Russia.

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## CHACHA"G"

how good FC-31 is as a bomber ? Can we replace our Mirages with them for same role ?
(What if)PAF of Future FC-31(with some sort of tech or production line transform) + JF-17 + new heavy twine engine bird + TFX or J-20(to replace F-16s) …….. Total 4 , 1 light , 1 medium Stealth , 1 heavy and 1 medium to heavy Stealth


----------



## monitor

CHACHA"G" said:


> how good FC-31 is as a bomber ? Can we replace our Mirages with them for same role ?
> (What if)PAF of Future FC-31(with some sort of tech or production line transform) + JF-17 + new heavy twine engine bird + TFX or J-20(to replace F-16s) …….. Total 4 , 1 light , 1 medium Stealth , 1 heavy and 1 medium to heavy Stealth



In twenty first century heavy weapons loads us not mandatory as you can hit your target with a single strike unlike 2 world war . ,FC-31 have a decent load of weapons which can work as mini bomber by sacrificing stealth. Future of PAF is JF-17 block III with F-16 continue to serve as long as possible . TFX is still far from reality.


----------



## LKJ86

Horus said:


> F-22 will escort F-35
> J-20 will escort J-31
> 
> Countries that only have the F-35 or J-31 will be left in the cold. Their capabilities will be halved as compared to both jets operated under the cover provided by Raptor or J-20.
> 
> I hope you get my point. If China truly cares about Pakistan's Security it will clear J-20s for sale too because only J-31s will put us at a disadvantage against IAF or other future adversaries


I understand what you mean.
It is really ambitious.

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## Kompromat

JF-17 is not relevant to the future battlefield. The survivability of fifth generation assets is paramount. The key selling point for F-35 among NATO states is that they can expect the US to deploy raptors in times of escalation, barred which the F-35/J-31 will see a massive reduction in capability and frankly not worth the price. 




Shabi1 said:


> JF-17s in air defense alert configuration carry 2 BVRAAMs and 2 SRAAMs, PAF seems to be happy with this ADA configuration. Same config on J-31 seems adequate. For stealth fighters the tactic is supposed to be shoot while undetected and then exit the theater. If the aggressor numbers out number a stealth it is better to delay engagements till reinforcements arrive. For PAF this is feasible because of proximity of threat areas to bases. Secondly aircraft can be detected even before they are in Pakistan airspace so ground control/AWACs can provide better threat assessment. Pakistan doesnt have huge coverage areas where assets have to operate independently just as have to be done by USA, China and Russia.



Ideally PAF would like to only purchase the J-20 because we have limited funds to purchase and operate. Therefore we will prefer a solution that can not only fulfill all the roles but also increases the survivability of our 4th gen fleet. 



LKJ86 said:


> I understand what you mean.
> It is really ambitious.


----------



## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Ideally PAF would like to only purchase the J-20 because we have limited funds to purchase and operate. Therefore we will prefer a solution that can not only fulfill all the roles but also increases the survivability of our 4th gen fleet.


Does Pakistan have any deadlines for its fifth-generation fighter project?
As we all know that, J-20 won't be exported in the near future for sure, due to the huge demand from PLAAF and PLAN.
Are there other viable options?


----------



## Kompromat

LKJ86 said:


> Does Pakistan have any deadlines for its fifth-generation fighter project?
> As we all know that, J-20 won't be exported in the near future for sure, due to the huge demand from PLAAF and PLAN.
> Are there other viable options?



The Govt has officially asked for J-20 during negotiations. However it remains a prerogative of the Chinese Govt to respond to the request. 

If Beijing for one reason or another refuses to service our request, then we'll ask for a joint venture with CAC preferably under Project Azm to develop a fifth generation plus aircraft tailored to PAF requirements.

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## sohail.ishaque

A noob question...
Has it anything to do with S-400 deal ? And can it be a counter to it ?


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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> The Govt has officially asked for J-20 during negotiations. However it remains a prerogative of the Chinese Govt to respond to the request.


Really? When?


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## Kompromat

Last year. 



LKJ86 said:


> Really? When?


----------



## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Last year.


Does Pakistan plan to buy some J-20s, not including its production line?


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## Kompromat

Yeah of course, even two squadrons will form the spearhead and do wonders for our airpower. We can replace F-16s and others with a smaller tactical fifth generation fighter. 




LKJ86 said:


> Does Pakistan plan to buy some J-20s, not including its production line?

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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Yeah of course, even two squadrons will form the spearhead and do wonders for our airpower. We can replace F-16s and others with a smaller tactical fifth generation fighter.


Yep, it is affordable to Pakistan.
Besides, if China wants to help Russia for pushing India to buy Su-57, it is also a good choice to sell Pakistan some J-20s.

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## Goku-kun

LKJ86 said:


> Yep, it is affordable to Pakistan.
> Besides, if China wants to help Russia for pushing India to buy Su-57, it is also a good choice to sell Pakistan some J-20s.


https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/3...-sell-48-high-end-military-drones-to-pakistan
any update on it? 48 wing loongs are being purchased by Pakistan with TOT?

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## LKJ86

Goku-kun said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/3...-sell-48-high-end-military-drones-to-pakistan
> any update on it? 48 wing loongs are being purchased by Pakistan with TOT?


It should need to be confirmed by Pakistani officials, and China never takes the initiative to do that.


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## Kompromat

Goku-kun said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/3...-sell-48-high-end-military-drones-to-pakistan
> any update on it? 48 wing loongs are being purchased by Pakistan with TOT?




Yeah, we'll get to hear about it. WL has been tested in Pakistan, one craft crashed too.


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## BHarwana

Goku-kun said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/3...-sell-48-high-end-military-drones-to-pakistan
> any update on it? 48 wing loongs are being purchased by Pakistan with TOT?



It is in main stream media now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049656225116250112


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## syed_yusuf

is this sale and co development that significant and why? is PAC going to produce them in Pakistan?


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## LKJ86

KF-X from South Korea


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## Kompromat

Pakistan cant opt for KFX if the jet is filled with American parts, engine and weapons. 



LKJ86 said:


> KF-X from South Korea
> View attachment 504173

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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> Pakistan cant opt for KFX if the jet is filled with American parts, engine and weapons.


and its semi stealthy without weapon bay. believe me China is the next super power, being with China will pay off in the long term.


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## 帅的一匹

Royal Blue007 said:


> That haraam


China will be a super power, thats for sure.


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4294758429456370

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## Kompromat

Looks like they've redesigned the inlets again.


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## HRK

Horus said:


> Looks like they've redesigned the inlets again.


I am more interested in a model of KUANG-CHI which similar to JSOW

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504852
> View attachment 504853
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4294758429456370


sir is it fc 31?


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> sir is it fc 31?


Wait for the Zhuhai Airshow-2018 next month. There will be more informations about FC-31.

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> Wait for the Zhuhai Airshow-2018 next month. There will be more informations about FC-31.


ok . thank you sir

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1051469093012946944


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## patriotpakistan

The plane won't be a refined product until the engines are buried properly in the airframe and the exhaust nozzles are redesigned.


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## Fawadqasim1

LKJ86 said:


> KF-X from South Korea
> View attachment 504173


A useless effort


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## Deino

Fawadqasim1 said:


> A useless effort



Why? IMO this is probably the most realistic approach for any of these "smaller" fifth generation types that are currently under development - like the Türkish TFX, the Indian AMCA - in countries that so far have no experience in developing a fifth generation type.

It might be rated a lame compromise between cost, operational performance, stealth and own the own industry's capabilities but IMO I expect this one at least to fly, whereas all other's I'm most sceptical.


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## Fawadqasim1

Deino said:


> Why? IMO this is probably the most realistic approach for any of these "smaller" fifth generation types that are currently under development - like the Türkish TFX, the Indian AMCA - in countries that so far have no experience in developing a fifth generation type.
> 
> It might be rated a lame compromise between cost, operational performance, stealth and own the own industry's capabilities but IMO I expect this one at least to fly, whereas all other's I'm most sceptical.


It's lame


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## Cybernetics

HRK said:


> I am more interested in a model of KUANG-CHI which similar to JSOW


Kuang-Chi a company that develops and produces meta-materials. I wouldn't take their product demonstrations at face value. They are there more for showcasing their technologies. Their technologies can be used on a JSOW like product or 5th generation fighter but those models do not represent final products.

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## Deino

Fawadqasim1 said:


> It's lame




But again why? You simply state this as if it is a fact, no explanations??

IMO it is better to have such a type flying and reaching operational status some day than hanging on wet-dreams which in the end fail due to too high aims. IMO the TFX and AMCA are prime examples for this.


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## Fawadqasim1

Deino said:


> But again why? You simply state this as if it is a fact, no explanations??
> 
> IMO it is better to have such a type flying and reaching operational status some day than hanging on wet-dreams which in the end fail due to too high aims. IMO the TFX and AMCA are prime examples for this.


I will I am posting via mobile


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> I will I am posting via mobile


please explain how its lame in shortest word @Fawadqasim1 ???


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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> please explain how its lame in shortest word @Fawadqasim1 ???




Maybe he's just driving, maybe he's at work ... I think we should have patience.

Otherwise I think this is a good question in general: How ambitious can a project - say project Azm - be and how much of a compromise it has to be in order succeed?

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## Cookie Monster

Deino said:


> Maybe he's just driving, maybe he's at work ... I think we should have patience.
> 
> Otherwise I think this is a good question in general: How ambitious can a project - say project Azm - be and how much of a compromise it has to be in order succeed?


IMO it would depend on how much China would be willing to share its 5th gen tech. China has spent billions on R&D towards engines, composites, stealth coatings, radars, etc. If China helps Pak in developing project Azm then it's much more likely to succeed since China has already done much of the hard work and gained valuable knowledge and experience.

If Pak has to do it alone then Pak would have to...
1) either lower its expectations considerably in order to do it in roughly the time estimated for this project.
2) or if the project is too ambitious then it might end up like Tejas...spending an eternity in development phase. For this option Pak doesn't have the funds to waste...nor do I think this route will be taken.

Azm would most likely be a collaboration with China.

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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> please explain how its lame in shortest word @Fawadqasim1 ???


any weapon which is non lethal when it's stealthy and non stealthy when it's lethal can only be termed as lame and we can also see the money and effort put in stealth detection technologies.so


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## The Accountant

Fawadqasim1 said:


> any weapon which is non lethal when it's stealthy and non stealthy when it's lethal can only be termed as lame and we can also see the money and effort put in stealth detection technologies.so


Yes the only difference the time for being non stealthy is merely few seconds which are too small to engage the aircraft


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> any weapon which is non lethal when it's stealthy and non stealthy when it's lethal can only be termed as lame and we can also see the money and effort put in stealth detection technologies.so


What is the term Non lethal @Fawadqasim1 Are you talking about against China KFX is Non lethal than your term Non lethal has no value @Fawadqasim1 



Cookie Monster said:


> IMO it would depend on how much China would be willing to share its 5th gen tech. China has spent billions on R&D towards engines, composites, stealth coatings, radars, etc. If China helps Pak in developing project Azm then it's much more likely to succeed since China has already done much of the hard work and gained valuable knowledge and experience.
> 
> If Pak has to do it alone then Pak would have to...
> 1) either lower its expectations considerably in order to do it in roughly the time estimated for this project.
> 2) or if the project is too ambitious then it might end up like Tejas...spending an eternity in development phase. For this option Pak doesn't have the funds to waste...nor do I think this route will be taken.
> 
> Azm would most likely be a collaboration with China.


He is asking about Korean KFX not our project AZM sir for the @Fawadqasim1 's post its a *lame project* @Cookie Monster sir


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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> What is the term Non lethal @Fawadqasim1 Are you talking about against China KFX is Non lethal than your term Non lethal has no value @Fawadqasim1
> 
> 
> He is asking about Korean KFX not our project AZM sir for the @Fawadqasim1 's post its a *lame project* @Cookie Monster sir


any stealth aircraft without internal weapons bay is a scam and Korean KFX is one of them


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> any stealth aircraft without internal weapons bay is a scam and Korean KFX is one of them


There are 3 versions of it which will come step by step first without weapon bays, second with semi ress under the fuselage just like EF-2000, and final version will have weapon bays, and remeber that it will be stealth multi-role jet just like F-35 which means F-35 can't carry all weapon load out in its internal weapon bays on CAS SEAD DEAD role @Fawadqasim1


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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> There are 3 versions of it which will come step by step first without weapon bays, second with semi ress under the fuselage just like EF-2000, and final version will have weapon bays, and remeber that it will be stealth multi-role jet just like F-35 which means F-35 can't carry all weapon load out in its internal weapon bays on CAS SEAD DEAD role @Fawadqasim1


And I was not talking about project azm

Project azm is probably a variant of j31 just like 
Jf17 I may be wrong though



The Accountant said:


> Yes the only difference the time for being non stealthy is merely few seconds which are too small to engage the aircraft


Just carrying two aams externally can reduce an aircraft's stealth features significantly.



pakistanipower said:


> There are 3 versions of it which will come step by step first without weapon bays, second with semi ress under the fuselage just like EF-2000, and final version will have weapon bays, and remeber that it will be stealth multi-role jet just like F-35 which means F-35 can't carry all weapon load out in its internal weapon bays on CAS SEAD DEAD role @Fawadqasim1


Yes it comprises it's stealth significantly.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> And I was not talking about project azm
> 
> Project azm is probably a variant of j31 just like
> Jf17 I may be wrong though





Fawadqasim1 said:


> Yes it comprises it's stealth significantly.


So does F-35/ Project AZM or J-31 on CAS/Strike load out @Fawadqasim1


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## The Accountant

Fawadqasim1 said:


> And I was not talking about project azm
> 
> Project azm is probably a variant of j31 just like
> Jf17 I may be wrong though
> 
> 
> Just carrying two aams externally can reduce an aircraft's stealth features significantly.
> 
> 
> Yes it comprises it's stealth significantly.


Agree, i thought you are talking about internal weapons ,,, My bad


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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> Agree, i thought you are talking about internal weapons ,,, My bad


@Fawadqasim1 says that about Korean KFX will has no weapon bays, so by his logic KFX will be a lame project @The Accountant

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## The Accountant

pakistanipower said:


> @Fawadqasim1 says that about Korean KFX will has no weapon bays, so by his logic KFX will be a lame project @The Accountant


I agree with him


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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> I agree with him


then by @Fawadqasim1 logic F-35/Project AZM/J-31 will also be lame projects with full weapons load out on CAS/Strike missions because they can't carry full air to ground load out in internal weapon bays @The Accountant  think logically @The Accountant


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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> then by @Fawadqasim1 logic F-35/Project AZM/J-31 will also be lame projects with full weapons load out on CAS/Strike missions because they can't carry full air to ground load out in internal weapon bays @The Accountant  think logically @The Accountant


With full weapon load non of the above are in their
Stealth role.
One brotherly advice from me please go see a psychiatrist.

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## Indos

Horus said:


> Pakistan cant opt for KFX if the jet is filled with American parts, engine and weapons.



Why not ? Is Pakistan F 16 Block 52 still operational until Today ? I think the answer is yes. I think you are worried to much. 

According to me, Pakistan will start acquiring Stealth fighter after 2025 where another new Stealth fighter (hopefully) will come up like KFX. KFX will be less American than F 16 as many major part will also come from South Korea (radar and other avionics) beside American engine. The design is Korean, American, and Indonesian. There will be European part as well. If I am not mistaken South Korean will also develop AA missile for KFX/IFX. https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ally-develop-missile-for-homemade-future-jet/ 

Talking about AZM project, it is supposed to be a research project conducted by Pakistani to nurture its design capability, because without new project the skill can be faded and there is a need to give experience to the new designers so that the industry and knowledge can still survive and developed. Actually the design skill can also be developed and nurtured by designing a civilian aircraft, and the cost will be much minimal with much better potential market.

And in order to get AZM project become successful and really make sense and produce real fighter (not just research program), it needs to have an experience partner in Stealth design, and another partner that will burden the development cost and plus become a fixed customer.


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## HRK

Indos said:


> Why not ?


becasue we do not want to commit the same POLITICAL mistake as previous

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## Fawadqasim1

No one is going to share stealth technology with Pakistan other than china period

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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> With full weapon load non of the above are in their
> Stealth role.
> One brotherly advice from me please go see a psychiatrist.


You need to update on stealth tech with air to ground payload even F-22 stealth is compromised @Fawadqasim1 


Fawadqasim1 said:


> No one is going to share stealth technology with Pakistan other than china period


May be Turkey will share us @Fawadqasim1


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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> You need to update on stealth tech with air to ground payload even F-22 stealth is compromised @Fawadqasim1
> 
> May be Turkey will share us @Fawadqasim1


Ok


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## GriffinsRule

There is no such thing as a stealth aircraft really, just low observable. When stated that way, an aircraft even with an external loadout can vary the range it would get detected by using both active (jamming) and passive (design, reduced emissions) means.

If we can vouch for an F-7 sized fighter to be harder to detect vs an Su-27, both armed with external weapons, the same would apply for a low-observable fighter. It maybe be larger than an F-7 and carry weapons externally, but still might end up with a smaller radar cross-section depending on its design and systems. 

In the Indo-Pak context, its unrealistic to think PAF will have all stealth fighters. Project AZM, if it comes to fruition, will not be for a token buy of 40-50 aircraft where you could say sure, just have all weapons internally. It will be a replacement for over 80 F-16s and possibly be inducted in 150+ numbers in the long run. Thus, a design such as the Korean one, with recessed weapons among other features is the most likely scenario with PAF. 

This goes both in line with the design philosophy at PAC and PAF, where keep it simple is the mantra for success. Having an aircraft that recessed weapons bay only serves to increase costs and complexity and given that those internals bays would be useful only for carrying a few AAMs, not at all effective for multirole operations PAF requires of all its aircraft. 

Thats my take on it. AZM will not be a "stealth" fighter in the same capacity as J-20 or F-22 as some are envisioning here.

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## Ali_Baba

GriffinsRule said:


> Thats my take on it. AZM will not be a "stealth" fighter in the same capacity as J-20 or F-22 as some are envisioning here.



It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.

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## Cybernetics

GriffinsRule said:


> There is no such thing as a stealth aircraft really, just low observable. When stated that way, an aircraft even with an external loadout can vary the range it would get detected by using both active (jamming) and passive (design, reduced emissions) means.





Ali_Baba said:


> It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.


@GriffinsRule was saying how "stealth" is not a binary situation where you either have "stealth" or "no stealth". Rather is a gradient of observability that can be measured in RCS (radar cross section), IR signatures, etc.

We only call certain jets "stealth" as a simple categorization of jets with low enough observability to give it an sufficient enough edge against enemy radars and sensors. "Stealth" planes are detectable by radar if you get close enough. "Stealth" is more of a marketing term.



GriffinsRule said:


> If we can vouch for an F-7 sized fighter to be harder to detect vs an Su-27, both armed with external weapons, the same would apply for a low-observable fighter. It maybe be larger than an F-7 and carry weapons externally, but still might end up with a smaller radar cross-section depending on its design and systems.
> 
> In the Indo-Pak context, its unrealistic to think PAF will have all stealth fighters. Project AZM, if it comes to fruition, will not be for a token buy of 40-50 aircraft where you could say sure, just have all weapons internally. It will be a replacement for over 80 F-16s and possibly be inducted in 150+ numbers in the long run. Thus, a design such as the Korean one, with recessed weapons among other features is the most likely scenario with PAF.
> 
> This goes both in line with the design philosophy at PAC and PAF, where keep it simple is the mantra for success. Having an aircraft that recessed weapons bay only serves to increase costs and complexity and given that those internals bays would be useful only for carrying a few AAMs, not at all effective for multirole operations PAF requires of all its aircraft.


Here he looks at low observable fighters more holistically and at its combat effectiveness in PAFs missions. Incredibly low observability might not be desired as it in his view compromises payload capacity. An very low obserable fighter with internal bays using extnal hardpoints to compensate for its low payload would erode it's original advantsge. A good balance in his view would be just sufficient low observability for mission survival and enough payload to deliver a heavy punch. The exact balance of fixed cost, maintenance, observability, and payload that is optimal would depend on the requirements of PAF. A very low observable fighter might not be the most optimal. He thinks it is possible that KF-X matches closely with those requirements.

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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.


What is making you think PAF will just give up on adesign it has worked on for nearly 20 yr. To give you an idea F16s were first seen in the mid to late 70 and even today remain relevant even to the USAwhich wants their life expanded to 2040. So a 50-70 yrs period of sustained progression can be expected. That which was designed in the 90s will not always remain so but will evolve with time as can be seen.
A


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## Silicon0000

Did Project AZM bring True 5th Gen fighter or a bit more stealthy 4th Gen fighter?

A fighter without internal weapon bay means only better RCS profile and nothing more.

What's the difference between eurofighter/Rafale and F35/F22 needs to be understand. There is a reason they called 4++ & 5 Gen.

KFX or any other fighter is pure BS to be called 5th Gen without internal weapon bay. 5th Gen can carry weapon both internally and externally but 4++ Gen can only carry them externally.

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## LKJ86

There is a rumor that FC-31 has got the orders from PLAN (J-35?), and will not be to Zhuhai Airshow-2018.
Wait and see...

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> There is a rumor that FC-31 has got the orders from PLAN (J-35?), and will not be to Zhuhai Airshow-2018.
> Wait and see...


are you sure?


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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> are you sure?



Huitong says so..


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## SQ8

araz said:


> What is making you think PAF will just give up on adesign it has worked on for nearly 20 yr. To give you an idea F16s were first seen in the mid to late 70 and even today remain relevant even to the USAwhich wants their life expanded to 2040. So a 50-70 yrs period of sustained progression can be expected. That which was designed in the 90s will not always remain so but will evolve with time as can be seen.
> A


What is important is to keep in mind is what is “stealth” in proper context and what is expected of the other side.
The JF-17 can be considered a low observable aircraft when compared to the Su-30.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> What is important is to keep in mind is what is “stealth” in proper context and what is expected of the other side.
> The JF-17 can be considered a low observable aircraft when compared to the Su-30.


RCS concerns might not even be a factor if the goal is to launch a long-range ALCM (Ra'ad II is 550 km, but 10 years from now it might go even farther, e.g. 750+ km) from interior Sindh or Baluchistan.


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## SQ8

Quwa said:


> RCS concerns might not even be a factor if the goal is to launch a long-range ALCM (Ra'ad II is 550 km, but 10 years from now it might go even farther, e.g. 750+ km) from interior Sindh or Baluchistan.


The goal is to provide a strike asset to that can reduce the detection capacity of Indian ADGE to create gaps where it can slip in to deal damage; much like the F-117s did.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> The goal is to provide a strike asset to that can reduce the detection capacity of Indian ADGE to create gaps where it can slip in to deal damage; much like the F-117s did.


That'll likely be a Project Azm thing.


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## araz

Oscar said:


> What is important is to keep in mind is what is “stealth” in proper context and what is expected of the other side.
> The JF-17 can be considered a low observable aircraft when compared to the Su-30.


Allama Mufti Saheb.
Do you know of any studies looking at the reduction in RCS with recessed weapons. Seems to me that if the cost vs benefit is there that might be the next stage prior to going the silent eagle way!
A


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## SQ8

araz said:


> Allama Mufti Saheb.
> Do you know of any studies looking at the reduction in RCS with recessed weapons. Seems to me that if the cost vs benefit is there that might be the next stage prior to going the silent eagle way!
> A


Done years ago, but as such it would have to be weight in.
Think of it as trying to reduce the noise of one instrument if the others are already loud enough. So even if you reduce one violin, it wont matter if the cello is still louder. 

For the JF-17, at its price point and capability the design is already so small in return that anything short of internal weapons does nothing to reduce its RCS significantly while remaining cost effective.

Per my information, in all exersizes the JF-17 has taken part in both internally and externally; it is able to get in closer than any other fighter in the PAF inventory and usually end up in WVR ranges if it hasn’t killed off the opposing side with BVR.

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## GoldenRatio1618

Need to acquire hundreds of long range high altitude (more than 30 km altitude flying) drones and equip them with air to ground attack small nuclear missiles and integrated them with war management software's control and operated through satellites it will be more enough reply to indian S-400 missile system to make it bankrupt because indian S-400 only track and hit the target up to 30 km of high altitude but if drones flying at 32-35 km altitude and throwing direct stones on S-400 can destroy it completely.


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## GriffinsRule

Another source for those people who ask for evidence on Chinese statements that the J-20 will not be offered for export. The excerpt is from the latest issue of Flight International. So this should at least settle that debate

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## LKJ86



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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511303


a confirmation for PLAN.... ??


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## Deino

HRK said:


> a confirmation for PLAN.... ??




I think we won't get a true confirmation soon, but how credible do you rate this latest round of rumours? I must admit as much as I wish and applaud this decision if done, I'm still rather sceptical since we've heard this rumour already so often.

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## LKJ86



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## HRK

Deino said:


> I'm still rather sceptical since we've heard this rumour already so often.


same here ...

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## Trailer23

*SOURCE:*






*China's second fifth-generation engine turbofan 19 debut or equipped with FC-31 fighter
November 5, 2018, 13:53*

*



*
*The picture shows the turbofan 19 engine*​
*Recently, according to media reports, China's second five-generation engine was unveiled, but this time it is not a turbofan 15, but a turbofan-19 engine codenamed "Huangshan." For this mysterious engine of this exposure, some experts said that this engine will be used as the power of the 歼31. Since then, the 歼31 will usher in a new life. After learning the truth, the Chinese people are completely boiling.

It is reported that at present, the company is developing two engine projects at the same time, one is the domestically produced turbofan-13 turbofan engine developed on the Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, and the other is the new generation of turbofan in China. Engine - turbofan 19 engine. From the current information on all exposures, the R&D reference target for the turbofan-19 engine should be the US F-414 engine.
*
*



*
*The picture shows the F-414 engine*​
*The US F-414 engine is a turbofan engine developed by General Electric Company. It is widely equipped on the Super Hornet series carrier-based aircraft, and its comprehensive performance is quite excellent. The turbofan 19 engine is likely to use the same design as the F-414 with a three-stage fan and a single-stage high-pressure turbine. It is worth mentioning that the Russian RD-93 engine used a four-stage fan design, resulting in an overly complex overall engine design, difficult internal layout, and excessive engine weight.

The turbofan-19 engine abandoned this design and switched to a three-stage fan, making the engine structure much simpler. And there is news that the engine may also adopt the thrust vector design. If the turbofan-19 can basically reach the goal of the initial development, the turbofan 19 will be a very good medium-pushing engine, which will undoubtedly be equipped. On the 歼-31 stealth fighter, the overall combat performance of the 歼-31 stealth fighter is not satisfactory. This is because it is equipped with the Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, the thrust is low, and the engine core technology is relatively backward.

The 歼-31 originally had a relatively good stealth design, but it was because of a heart disease that it could not fully exploit its full combat potential. The solution is of course to equip a new engine. If equipped with a turbofan-13, it is expected that the thrust-to-weight ratio of the turbofan 13 is 9 and the thrust is about 10 tons. The performance improvement of the 歼-31 is not obvious, and the push-to-weight ratio of the turbofan 19 is expected to reach 11 The thrust is about 11 tons, and the two turbofans 19 can provide about 22 tons of thrust for the 歼-31.

Taking the F-35 stealth fighter as an example, the thrust of a single engine of the F-35 stealth fighter reached 21 tons of thrust, making the maximum takeoff weight of the F-35 stealth fighter reach 33 tons, while the two turbofans 19 were equipped. The take-off weight of the -31 stealth fighter is almost 35 tons. If the basic design of the 歼-31 is amplified and improved, it means that the 歼-31's voyage and the carrying capacity can be improved. The comprehensive combat performance is naturally much better than the current 歼-31, so the Chinese are very much looking forward to the arrival of the turbofan 19.
(Author's signature: Zhuge Xiaoche)*

*------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China's FC-31 engine may have been ready to start matching with the aircraft
November 5th, 2018, 15:16

Just a few moments ago, CCTV announced the last of the Air Force's 20 plans, the H20 stealth strategic bomber. The Chinese Air Force's 20 plans, including helicopters, heavy-duty stealth fighters and bombers, are about to be completed. Now, the most important thing for Chinese military fans to remember is when we can have our fifth-generation stealth carrier-based fighter.
*
*



*​
*At present, there are only two fighters in China that match the ship, one is the 歼-20 heavy-duty stealth fighter that the Air Force is currently equipped, and the other is the FC-31 eagle fighter designed and produced by Shenyang Aircraft Manufacturing. The J-20 fighter is difficult to use as a carrier aircraft for the Navy for the following reasons:*

*First of all, the 歼-20 as a heavy-duty stealth fighter, although in line with the mainstream thinking of the current heavy-duty aircraft, but as a carrier-based aircraft, its size is too large. The 歼-20 adopts a delta wing with a large sweep angle. The wing on the upper ship is difficult to fold, and its own large size, the same hangar capacity may be only about half of 歼15.*

*Secondly, the 歼-20 was designed to meet the squad attack of the Air Force's long-range sprinter. Its weapon mounting capability and subsequent upgrade capability have been greatly affected, and it may be difficult to meet the operational requirements of the carrier aircraft.*

*



*
*Finally, the production speed of the J-20 is still unable to meet the Chinese Air Force, and for a long time it was unable to balance the Navy.*​*
In contrast, Shen Fei's other FC-31 Eagle Fighter has a number of advantages.

Shen Fei has a unique advantage in the production of carrier aircraft and HNA fighters. The FC-31 is small in size and has the potential to be converted into a carrier aircraft. Although the design and construction of the FC-31 Eagle Fighter medium-sized aircraft has been criticized by many people, from the state of the improved FC-31 fighter, its overall size has been increased, and the overall aerodynamic construction of the aircraft has been improved. , indicating that its upgrade potential is very huge.

For now, one of the biggest reasons why the FC-31 Eagle Fighter cannot be boarded is that China does not have a suitable engine.The FC-31 Hawker prototype uses two RD-93 engines produced in Russia. This engine is the engine of the famous "Airport Defender" MiG-29. It may be more than enough for the FC-31 to use this engine as a medium-sized foreign trade stealth fighter from the beginning, but it is not enough for the ship to become a carrier aircraft. If the turbofan-19 new mid-push is being successfully deployed, the probability of the FC-31 on board will increase greatly. Just recently, Sun Fei’s academician Sun Cong and Wang Yongqing’s chief engineer went to China Aviation to send Guiyang to conduct research on the development of a certain type of engine. According to the news, the model has begun to match the aircraft and the engine, which is likely to indicate that the development of the turbofan-19 new mid-push is nearing completion.

Whether it is the FC-31 Eagle or the 歼-20 Veyron, these two stealth fighters will one day compete on the same stage, and strive to become China's first stealth carrier-based fighter. In the air force's confrontation, the FC-31 eagle is purely powerless, but this eagle has never given up the dream of fighting the sea. I believe that in the future, this is the Chinese sea eagle, and will eventually fly!
(Author's signature: sharp edge / AL)*


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## LKJ86



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## Trailer23

*Source:*






*China's FC-31 fighter will turn into a carrier aircraft? The chief teacher responded: Wait!
November 10, 2018 08:56*

*Original title: "The Eagle" fighter or will be turned into a carrier aircraft? Sun Cong responded: Wait!

　　The 12th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition opened in Zhuhai on November 6th. In terms of aviation equipment, the 歼-20, Yun-20, and 歼-10B thrust vector verification machines have become the stars. In this year's air show, another stealth fighter FC-31 "Suiying" in the "two-type four generations" was displayed in the exhibition hall only in a large scale model, which made countless audiences regret it.

As is known to all, the "Eagle" fighter is a new generation of fighter aircraft independently developed by the aviation industry. At present, there is no public information to prove that it has obtained military approval. The biggest concern of the outside world for the future development of the "Eagle" is whether it will develop into the next generation of carrier aircraft of the Chinese Navy. At the "Dream of Dreams" media meeting held by the aviation industry on November 5th, a reporter asked, Shenyang, as the birthplace of China's first type of carrier-based fighter 歼-15, what kind of carrier on the next generation of carrier-based aircraft At the time of deployment, Sun Cong, chief designer of the FC-31 "Eagle" fighter, replied: From a technical point of view, the development of our fourth-generation machine technology has made great progress and reserves. In the field of carrier aircraft, we also have A wealth of experience, from a time point of view, this is a country's positioning in the development of the problem, once the military needs, the Shenyang area will go all out to complete the development task.

　　When a reporter asked about the heavy-duty and medium-sized choices in the development of China's next-generation carrier-based aircraft, Sun Cong replied that the so-called medium-sized and heavy-duty choices were fulfilled by missions. Sun Cong also cited the famous senior commander of the US Naval Air Force. Joseph Levy, who is known as the "father of the aircraft carrier", said that the aircraft's combat power is characterized by the number of aircraft that are released within the unit hours, so whether it is a heavy machine or a medium aircraft, the aircraft carrier needs more. The aircraft is the first priority. Sun Cong finally emphasized that as a carrier-based aircraft, the more aircraft carriers can fly without the generation difference, the better the carrier is compiled.






"Dream of Dreams" media meeting​
As early as the two sessions in March 2013, Sun Cong, then a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, revealed that China's next-generation carrier-based aircraft would be available before 2020. In February 2018, the scientific and technological personnel of the Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute of the Aviation Industry wrote in the "China Aviation News" that medium-sized multi-function carrier-based fighters have different combat missions such as performing air combat, suppressing/destroying enemy air defenses, and attacking the ground (sea). The ability can significantly improve the battlefield environment adaptability and flexibility of the aircraft carrier formation, while optimizing the structure and simplifying logistics support. Heavy-duty carrier-based combat opportunities affect the number of aircraft carriers carried by aircraft carriers. The use of medium-sized carrier-based fighters not only increases the number of carriers carried by aircraft carriers, but also lowers maintenance and repair costs, and higher frequency of sunrise movements, and better overall operational efficiency and economic performance. . Therefore, the medium-sized multi-function carrier-based fighter is the mainstream of the current carrier-based fighters, and it is also the trend of development in the future.

　　At the press conference on November 5, CCTV reporters asked Sun Cong to verify whether the rumors on the Internet about "the eagle turned positive" were real-time, Sun Cong smiled. "Online news puts my heart's wishes out. We are also very concerned about this matter. As for my answer, that is: Wait!"
(Chen Xin Li Muyu)
*


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## FuturePAF

Wait till 2020. J-31 as Sea Eagle. 

How many fighters does the PLAN want on its Carriers? With the Type 003 planned to be as large as a Nimitz or Ford Class Carrier; it will probably need a similar number as currently on a Nimitz; 24-36 Strike Fighters and 2 Squadrans 10-12 each of Standard Fighters. That's 44-60 Fighters. That's a formidable number for power projection and to cement Superpower status. Protected by 2-3 Type 055 Destroyers and a Mix of Type 052D, 054A, and Submarines; The Chinese navy is starting to remake Chinese power projection not seen since the likes of Zheng He.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_003_aircraft_carrier

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Horus @Oscar what are your thoughts on the PAF getting the FC-31 off the shelf as a bridge fighter in the lead up to Project Azm? 

I'm asking because Alan Warnes, after speaking to the CAS, said Azm would fly within 10 years and is to fully materialize (I'm guessing be in service in healthy numbers?) by 2047. The CAS also framed Azm as a "5/6 gen fighter" ?

That leaves a gap in the 2020s and 2030s where the older F-16s and JF-17s must go. The latter can probably go via a Block-IV/V, but the former?

As I see it, we might see an interim FGF bid between the FC-31 and the TFX (remember, Warnes said last year it'd figure into the PAF's plans, and ACM Aman said something re: working with Turkey on a next gen fighter).

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## Kompromat

That depends if the Chinese WS-19 can pump up to 100kn of reheat. It depends on the quality of the software available, sensors and weapons. 

PAF has to replace those PGs you know. Two Squadrons of J-31 wouldn't hurt. 

Im waiting to see if PLN places an order. That'll inject the much needed cash into the project and accelerate its development. 




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Horus @Oscar what are your thoughts on the PAF getting the FC-31 off the shelf as a bridge fighter in the lead up to Project Azm?
> 
> I'm asking because Alan Warnes, after speaking to the CAS, said Azm would fly within 10 years and is to fully materialize (I'm guessing be in service in healthy numbers?) by 2047. The CAS also framed Azm as a "5/6 gen fighter" ?
> 
> That leaves a gap in the 2020s and 2030s where the older F-16s and JF-17s must go. The latter can probably go via a Block-IV/V, but the former?
> 
> As I see it, we might see an interim FGF bid between the FC-31 and the TFX (remember, Warnes said last year it'd figure into the PAF's plans, and ACM Aman said something re: working with Turkey on a next gen fighter).

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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> Im waiting to see if PLN places an order. That'll inject the much needed cash into the project and accelerate its development.


If PLAN places an order, I don't think it is a good news to PAF.


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## Kompromat

It should not be an issue i think. PLAN will pay for a carrier variant with folded wings, catapult enabled landing gear etc.

The same aircraft can be produced with a conventional wing and landing gear. Much like the Mig-29 SMT & Mig-29 K.

Again, the deciding factor will be the engine.



LKJ86 said:


> If PLAN places an order, I don't think it is a good news to PAF.


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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> It should not be an issue i think. PLAN will pay for a carrier variant with folded wings, catapult enabled landing gear etc.
> 
> The same aircraft can be produced with a conventional wing and landing gear. Much like the Mig-29 SMT & Mig-29 K.
> 
> Again, the deciding factor will be the engine.


I mean maybe it won't be exported.


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## Kompromat

That decision lies with the CCP. If China bans its export, there's nothing Pakistan can do. We'd just have to look for a replacement elsewhere, since we don't have the capacity to develop a 5th generation aircraft on our own. 




LKJ86 said:


> I mean maybe it won't be exported.

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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> That decision lies with the CCP. If China bans its export, there's nothing Pakistan can do. We'd just have to look for a replacement elsewhere, since we don't have the capacity to develop a 5th generation aircraft on our own.


What about project Azm?


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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> What about project Azm?


its a long journey ....


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## Kompromat

Project Azm will fly in 2028.
Rafales arrive in 2022.

What will do for those years in between? 



LKJ86 said:


> What about project Azm?


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## Quwa

LKJ86 said:


> If PLAN places an order, I don't think it is a good news to PAF.


I think the FC-31 as-is will be offered for export, the PLAN would get a very different sub-variant for both carrier ops and other improvements. Basically, the J-10A (FC-20) vs. J-10B/C story.

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## Trango Towers

HRK said:


> its a long journey ....


always glass half full. 
there are some who still doubt our abilities


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

snow lake said:


> always glass half full.
> there are some who still doubt our abilities


I'd put it this way... What Pakistan can do itself, it'll apply it on Azm. What Pakistan can't do, it'll rely on a trusted partner. Mixing indigenous with reliance on overseas is the reality for everyone except for the US, China and Russia. We should make sure that our partners won't drop us on the 11th hour.

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## Trango Towers

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd put it this way... What Pakistan can do itself, it'll apply it on Azm. What Pakistan can't do, it'll rely on a trusted partner. Mixing indigenous with reliance on overseas is the reality for everyone except for the US, China and Russia. We should make sure that our partners won't drop us on the 11th hour.


I agree...also we dont need to reinvent the wheel. Even if you look at f22 f35 eurofighter their parts come from many sources. Sure we have weaknesses but we are a long way from the 1970. Sadly some people here are still at the toyota corolla stage and only imported things are good

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## Silicon0000

PAF future is only F-16, JF-17 block xyz & B variant and Project AZM FGF (Different variant/ blocks). 

Rest (J10, F31 etc) all are only in case of need things.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Horus @Oscar what are your thoughts on the PAF getting the FC-31 off the shelf as a bridge fighter in the lead up to Project Azm?
> 
> I'm asking because Alan Warnes, after speaking to the CAS, said Azm would fly within 10 years and is to fully materialize (I'm guessing be in service in healthy numbers?) by 2047. The CAS also framed Azm as a "5/6 gen fighter" ?
> 
> That leaves a gap in the 2020s and 2030s where the older F-16s and JF-17s must go. The latter can probably go via a Block-IV/V, but the former?
> 
> As I see it, we might see an interim FGF bid between the FC-31 and the TFX (remember, Warnes said last year it'd figure into the PAF's plans, and ACM Aman said something re: working with Turkey on a next gen fighter).


It is possible to have an interim 5th generation element for force transition and familiarity but it brings with it its own support issues, along with ensuring that a potent enough power plant exists to avoid the early issues the J-20 had.

It may be possible to do a small buy of some 30-40 each provided we can secure the most open variant of LO tech from China due to their reservations regarding the PAF being too exposed to US equipment and training which leaves the high possibility of moles.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> It is possible to have an interim 5th generation element for force transition and familiarity but it brings with it its own support issues, along with ensuring that a potent enough power plant exists to avoid the early issues the J-20 had.
> 
> It may be possible to do a small buy of some 30-40 each provided we can secure the most open variant of LO tech from China due to their reservations regarding the PAF being too exposed to US equipment and training which leaves the high possibility of moles.


If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter. 

Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "_We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft,"_ (source) and Alan Warnes saying, _"No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement,"_ (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.

You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

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## Thorough Pro

That collaboration may be limited to certain technologies only and not the whole project. I don't think PAF has the budget to afford two seperate next gen programs. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter.
> 
> Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "_We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft,"_ (source) and Alan Warnes saying, _"No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement,"_ (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.
> 
> You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter.
> 
> Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "_We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft,"_ (source) and Alan Warnes saying, _"No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement,"_ (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.
> 
> You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)


Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail


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## rcrmj

CAC is currently working on* JF-17 Block III,* quite advanced for a size like JF-17!

and regarding this *FC-31* model, it is *more like a demonstrator* of China's *second type stealth fighter*, and its offsprings will be* an export version of medium sized stealth fighter,* and a family of *medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies*

now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.

but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into* two versions* (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), *a highly geared version* uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and *a standerd version* with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).

Thank to the SAC has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet


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## Silicon0000

rcrmj said:


> CAC is currently working on* JF-17 Block III,* quite advanced for a size like JF-17!
> 
> and regarding this *FC-31* model, it is *more like a demonstrator* of China's *second type stealth fighter*, and its offsprings will be* an export version of medium sized stealth fighter,* and a family of *medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies*
> 
> now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.
> 
> but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into* two versions* (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), *a highly geared version* uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and *a standerd version* with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).
> 
> Thank to the *CAC* has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet



CAC medium size stealth fighter ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail


That predates Alan Warnes' point, in later PAF statements (e.g. ACM Aman) it seemed the TF-X could be more than integration work.

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## messiach

I am not aware of an 'interim fighter jet' procurement.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too.



Referring to NGF we are better-off with Russia +/- China. Turbofan will decide its ultimate fate.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)



@gambit @CriticalThought good arguments.


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## Thorough Pro

Maybe it was only for the targeting pods, or some 5th Gen technology from Turkish program that can be adopted for Pakistani program. Who knows?



HRK said:


> Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail

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## rcrmj

Silicon0000 said:


> CAC medium size stealth fighter ???


my mistake SAC```````

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thorough Pro said:


> Maybe it was only for the targeting pods, or some 5th Gen technology from Turkish program that can be adopted for Pakistani program. Who knows?


Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:

_“Importantly, *joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey*. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”_​
November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:

Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.

_“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them.* For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”
_
April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

Source: Bol Narratives (link)

_No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement._

Alan Warnes

Source: Twitter​Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:
> 
> _“Importantly, *joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey*. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”_​
> November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:
> 
> Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.
> 
> _“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them.* For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”
> _
> April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.
> 
> Source: Bol Narratives (link)
> 
> _No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement._
> 
> Alan Warnes
> 
> Source: Twitter​Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?



Hi,

I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.

There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.

TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.

Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.

I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.

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## BHarwana

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.
> 
> There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.
> 
> TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.
> 
> Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.
> 
> I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.



Wrong analysis. Our requirement is both jets FC 31 and TFX. One to bomb and other to escort. There are no side bays in FC 31.

So we will get 1 from China and one from Turkey.

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## royalharris

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.
> 
> There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.
> 
> TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.
> 
> Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.
> 
> I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.



The result is clear
But people will say we get knowledge with the large amount of investment， but who the hell know where the money go，who the hell know any so-called knowledge learned

Best way to get money

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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> CAC is currently working on* JF-17 Block III,* quite advanced for a size like JF-17!
> 
> and regarding this *FC-31* model, it is *more like a demonstrator* of China's *second type stealth fighter*, and its offsprings will be* an export version of medium sized stealth fighter,* and a family of *medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies*
> 
> now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.
> 
> but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into* two versions* (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), *a highly geared version* uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and *a standerd version* with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).
> 
> Thank to the SAC has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet



Despite all the talk from Aviation Week and numerous Chinese sources, we should still treat rumors as rumors until more concrete evidence comes in.

Not saying that there is zero possibility of the FC-31 being the basis of the PLAN's next-generation fighter, but there is no guarantee either.

Wait and see.


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## GriffinsRule

Pakistan will learn nothing from the FC-31 in regards to aircraft development. Its a finished product. The real groundwork for future of an aviation industry would be set by joining an effort in its onset, where we are involved in the actual planning, design considerations (not I want single engine or twin-engine blah blah but the nuts and bolts of engineering decisions and compromises etc), building up the system/software architecture and implementation of all the hundreds and thousands of aspects of the aircraft design are made. 

If we buy the FC-31 whatever, it would be the largest fraud and disservice to the future generations of Pakistan. 

Gladly, it seems the PAF leadership has a similar vision of what they want to accomplish in the long term and are not running to the Chinese for an off the shelf purchase. In the 15yr interim, upgrading JF-17 and later the F-16s will be more than enough to keep Indians at bay, supported by all our other assets.

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## rcrmj

Akasa said:


> Despite all the talk from Aviation Week and numerous Chinese sources, we should still treat rumors as rumors until more concrete evidence comes in.
> 
> Not saying that there is zero possibility of the FC-31 being the basis of the PLAN's next-generation fighter, but there is no guarantee either.
> 
> Wait and see.


you need to wait, as time can clear out rumors, but not fact, as fact is there, always there, cant be changed by, lets say personal opinions``?



GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan will learn nothing from the FC-31 in regards to aircraft development. Its a finished product. The real groundwork for future of an aviation industry would be set by joining an effort in its onset, where we are involved in the actual planning, design considerations (not I want single engine or twin-engine blah blah but the nuts and bolts of engineering decisions and compromises etc), building up the system/software architecture and implementation of all the hundreds and thousands of aspects of the aircraft design are made.
> 
> If we buy the FC-31 whatever, it would be the largest fraud and disservice to the future generations of Pakistan.
> 
> Gladly, it seems the PAF leadership has a similar vision of what they want to accomplish in the long term and are not running to the Chinese for an off the shelf purchase. In the 15yr interim, upgrading JF-17 and later the F-16s will be more than enough to keep Indians at bay, supported by all our other assets.



aviation sector isnt something that can be done with "visions", the hundres and thousands of bits and bots do not come from *one R&D* center or *one factory*, but hundreds if not thousands. "drawing" a PPT is one thing (least savvy```), but having hundreds reliable suppliers that are ready and upto the requirement isnt something can be done collectively.

for the time being, in this world that we are living in (not some Indian or Turkish or Iranian delusion), that there are only two blocks that is up to the task, the western block led by the U.S and the East block led by China (used to be Russia, but now it relies on West or China for bits and bots for their aviation industry)````

India will have 5th gen stealth fighter one way or another, you cant rely on 4th gen fighter to deal with 5th gen threat````so it leaves the question of choosing China or U.S for PAF's 5th gen fleet?

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> you need to wait, as time can clear out rumors, but not fact, as fact is there, always there, cant be changed by, lets say personal opinions``?
> 
> 
> 
> aviation sector isnt something that can be done with "visions", the hundres and thousands of bits and bots do not come from *one R&D* center or *one factory*, but hundreds if not thousands. "drawing" a PPT is one thing (least savvy```), but having hundreds reliable suppliers that are ready and upto the requirement isnt something can be done collectively.
> 
> for the time being, in this world that we are living in (not some Indian or Turkish or Iranian delusion), that there are only two blocks that is up to the task, the western block led by the U.S and the East block led by China (used to be Russia, but now it relies on West or China for bits and bots for their aviation industry)````
> 
> India will have 5th gen stealth fighter one way or another, you cant rely on 4th gen fighter to deal with 5th gen threat````so it leaves the question of choosing China or U.S for PAF's 5th gen fleet?


thats realistic.


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## serenity

Internal bays is so hard to build into a fighter. Korea changed plans already. Turkey may insist and get main bays but side bays will be very hard for medium engines. They will need large TFX for side bays + main bays. So I am willing to bet they end up with no side bays like F35, PAKFA, KFX, and FC-31. None have side bays and only PAKFA is two heavy thrust engined fighter of the bunch. Side bays mostly for air to air missiles so not for bombing. Pakistan will want their first 5th generation fighter to be air superiority mission role. Not for bombing targets. They have missiles and rockets already and other planes can drop bombs when PAF has air superiority. No money for two FG fighters. Pick one and make it good and work well for PAF for okay price. Pakistan is not wealthy nation and should not be spending so much on military. We are not United States and cannot just keep telling everyone our money is worth XYZ. Otherwise we will go bankrupt. USA never goes bankrupt because they can change the definition.

FC-31 is not finished. TFX barely to prototype stage. Who knows which will be better and when they can be finished products. Only PAF who will become a buyer will really know when they test it and they will decide what conditions and situations is best for them. If PAF buys FG fighter, they will definitely go with one of these.

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## chengdusudise

here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them

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## Fawadqasim1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.
> 
> There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.
> 
> TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.
> 
> Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.
> 
> I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.


Absolutely bullseye sir.
Turkey has nothing no engine no prototype airframe

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## Dazzler

chengdusudise said:


> here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them



Chinese expertise has been sought in Azm from the word go. No way Pak can make a 5g fighter on their own this early. Thanks to China, we managed to manage a good chunk of the jf-17 at home.

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## LKJ86

chengdusudise said:


> here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them


When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
And J-20 also can be exported at that time...

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## Beast

J-20 is a very complex and engineering marvel. Kowtow to Chinese engineer.

- a low RCS
-decent size weapon bay
-while still maintain good aerodynamic to be agile.
- on top of that , large amount of avionics and subsystem need for be fitted in.

Seriously, PA shall stick with a proven aviation giant of fc-31.

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## python-000

Beast said:


> J-20 is a very complex and engineering marvel. Kowtow to Chinese engineer.
> 
> - a low RCS
> -decent size weapon bay
> -while still maintain good aerodynamic to be agile.
> - on top of that , large amount of avionics and subsystem need for be fitted in.
> 
> Seriously, PA shall stick with a proven aviation giant of fc-31.


Bro' i totally agree with you...

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## messiach

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar
> 
> The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.


 In November 2016 the PAF told Jane's about the need to procure 30-40 fighters as an interim for the 2020s until the FGF came online. But at that time, the options given we're Su-35 and J-10.


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## chengdusudise

LKJ86 said:


> When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
> And J-20 also can be exported at that time...


it will never be ready.they have a little GDP. a little goverment income. a little R&D expenditure. a little Industry output .all in all. a little country with almost no money no tech to deveope 5th G fighter.
except for keeping produce PPT and plastic model,there will be no more progress

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## LKJ86

chengdusudise said:


> it will never be ready.they have a little GDP. a little goverment income. a little R&D expenditure. a little Industry output .all in all. a little country with almost no money no tech to deveope 5th G fighter


At least, Turkey is very ambitious.


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## serenity

Europe can form group to build FGF easy. They have money, industry, experience and all the skills. Little assistance can be gotten from USA as well if they want it. Japan too if they want to spend the money and time. Korea is like Japan. They are much more capable of doing this than we think. Turkey got some smarts and some of the industry but economy will need years to recover if not many decades. FGF with such limited funding and hardly any reliable partners to help out with, it's close to impossible in real life but people want to dream. Let them do it. They all called China copycat, but all their PPT and plastic models are worse garbage then cheapest Chinese products and their designs are worse copies of F-22. We all laughed at them because they called us copycat now they reveal how shit they all are. Good. These shit people call chinese copycats but they fail to build even a lower standard of copy. They are worse than the worst Chinese hahahahahaha .

More time will reveal just how empty all their bullshit talk and bluff are. Like India with AMCA. It reminds me years ago Indians make fun of China's pollution. Reality is when they teased China, their pollution was already higher. Now it's already got attention of their western masters and shown to be MUCH worse than China's. This is reality. Not their bullshit internet talk. Will just be like their AMCA. They will produce cheap ugly F-22 copy that eventually they will reject themselves 20 times separately around year 2050. Then they will call China bad things even louder and how J-20 is Mig1.44 copy or J-20 is photoshop.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar
> 
> The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.


Klimov would be open to it since their order books arent as filled as that for Saturn or Salyut.



messiach said:


> I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar
> 
> The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.


Turkish MoU is more symbolic than concrete and based upon increasing cooperation in all sectors rather than Azm alone.

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## dBSPL

Just a little example, minimum of 3-4 million lines of code are written for the avionics systems of a current combat jets. When you want to buy this accumulation as ready, every system change on the aircraft, creates dependency on exporter.

Pakistan's only problem is not about India's air force inventory. At the same time need to establish a sustainable aviation industry. So sooner or later, Pakistan has to work with China or another country to design a 5th gen. jet from scratch.

The other issue is that, if Pakistan completes J-31 order with all of its Chinese subsystems(fastest supply) in this day, theoretically when the first operational fleet be ready? 10 years?



Oscar said:


> Klimov would be open to it since their order books arent as filled as that for Saturn or Salyut.
> 
> 
> Turkish MoU is more symbolic than concrete and based upon increasing cooperation in all sectors rather than Azm alone.


As I understand it, Turkey's objectives rather than being commercial, They will trying to have the common aviation(and naval) infrastructure with Pakistan and Azerbaijan.

In this direction, we can have such a prediction for Turkey and Azerbaijan like that:
PAC Super Mushshak, primary trainer
Hurkus B, basic trainer
Hurjet, as a LIFT
PAC JF-17 B3 or Hurjet as low-operational-cost attack jet
TFX / AZM as a primary Interceptor

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar
> 
> The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.




Hi,

Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.

It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.

Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.



Fawadqasim1 said:


> Absolutely bullseye sir.
> Turkey has nothing no engine no prototype airframe



Hi,

And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.

So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.

Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland---.

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## rambro

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.
> 
> It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.
> 
> Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.
> 
> So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.
> 
> Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland---.



Pak is more emotional hence will go with who scores higher on the BrotherMeter.
Not sure if i make sense there LOL.

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## messiach

Interesting. Lets wait for Ideas then. @Oscar @MastanKhan 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In November 2016 the PAF told Jane's about the need to procure 30-40 fighters as an interim for the 2020s until the FGF came online. But at that time, the options given we're Su-35 and J-10.


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## Thorough Pro

I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.

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## Fawadqasim1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.
> 
> It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.
> 
> Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.
> 
> So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.
> 
> ---.





MastanKhan said:


> Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland


I can think of only one reason kickbacks.

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## serenity

FG is hard but not impossible. It is possible for Turkey to build it if they really dedicated everything. But this is unrealistic. It doesn't require them to have already done 3 gen then 4 gen then 4.5 gen before they can do 5 gen. It is a matter of expertise, people, machinery, time, and money. If they wanted to all these problems can be solved and they will build a good TFX FGF. It is putting all these things together. Not just having skills and genius working on the project.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It betrays common sense to go with Turkey on a JV for a 5th gen aircraft---when China---which is under massive threat from the US is pouring billions into its stealth program---.

And Paf would leave it to go with Turkey who hardly has any funds for such a massive venture---that is TREASON---.

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## denel

Thorough Pro said:


> I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
> Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
> Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.


ever heard of relabelling. This is exactly what i had been saying; PAF must be told do their thing ... fly the planes; let the R&D and evolution to proper engineers and scientists. They are part of the problem not the solution.

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## Ali_Baba

Thorough Pro said:


> I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
> Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
> Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.



Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,

You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.

Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.

HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas

The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!

Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.

I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....

Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...

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## Kompromat

Project Azm is designed to internalise:

1: Materials 
2: Software
3: Design skills
4: Test, Evaluation and Certification 
5: Air Ordnance design & development 
6: Unmanned Technologies 

First, they might go for JF-17 Block-4, to internalise 4.5+ generation technology, then use that experience for a 5+ generation aircraft project. The capabilities you mentioned is exactly what this project tries to develop. 



Ali_Baba said:


> Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,
> 
> You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.
> 
> Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.
> 
> HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas
> 
> The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!
> 
> Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.
> 
> I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....
> 
> Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> Project Azm is designed to internalise:
> 
> 1: Materials
> 2: Software
> 3: Design skills
> 4: Test, Evaluation and Certification
> 5: Air Ordnance design & development
> 6: Unmanned Technologies
> 
> First, they might go for JF-17 Block-4, to internalise 4.5+ generation technology, then use that experience for a 5+ generation aircraft project. The capabilities you mentioned is exactly what this project tries to develop.


Azm seems to be clean sheet, but that doesn't mean Pakistan is doing it alone. The previous CAS clearly said China was involved in some capacity.

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## M16174

Might I be wrong, but I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC.

As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
As did Alan say about J10.

We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.

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## LeGenD

M16174 said:


> Might I be wrong, but I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC.
> 
> As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
> Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
> USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
> As did Alan say about J10.
> 
> We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.


We can approach Turkey. 

They have contributions in F-35 program.


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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,
> 
> You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.
> 
> Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.
> 
> HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas
> 
> The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!
> 
> Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.
> 
> I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....
> 
> Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...


I would disagree..under license production is manufacturing only. Pakistan was involved and LEARNED at design stage from jf-17, k8, and mushaq (super mushaq)...it didnt simply produced blue prints..

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> I would disagree..under license production is manufacturing only. Pakistan was involved and LEARNED at design stage from jf-17, k8, and mushaq (super mushaq)...it didnt simply produced blue prints..



You are incorrect on the Mushshak (we bought the license and manufacturing rights from Sweden) and very little information is available, if any, of any Pakistani involvement in the K-8, beyond our 25% share in its manufacturing. Americans were involved in that program at the onset, which later they withdrew from of course.


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## messiach

Two examples from chinese LoCon programme & one from an unknown source. The stumbling block would be the turbine. Its the same two decades old story around FC1 turbines being repeated again. 

I would agree with the 6 points of @Horus also including development of airforce space command.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Azm seems to be clean sheet, but that doesn't mean Pakistan is doing it alone. The previous CAS clearly said China was involved in some capacity.

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> You are incorrect on the Mushshak (we bought the license and manufacturing rights from Sweden) and very little information is available, if any, of any Pakistani involvement in the K-8, beyond our 25% share in its manufacturing. Americans were involved in that program at the onset, which later they withdrew from of course.


super mushaq was comprehensive upgrade, read about it


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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Interesting. Lets wait for Ideas then. @Oscar @MastanKhan


Interim fighters were highly dependent upon economic conditions; however the lean was on the EF.

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## CriticalThought

In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:

1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.

This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.

@Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Thorough Pro

We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc. 




CriticalThought said:


> In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:
> 
> 1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
> 2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
> 3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
> 4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
> 5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.
> 
> This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.
> 
> @Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc.



There is the design aspect and the industrial aspect. The only realistic way is to obtain the industrial aspect from China.


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## serenity

Thorough Pro said:


> We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc.



This costs too much. You can do it but it will come with more costs because you are developing everything from scratch.


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## rcrmj

chengdusudise said:


> they just smoke too much cannabis,but they are not alone, here we have iranis,indians,S.koreas are smoking cannabis like no tommorw.
> the only two possible can develope a 5th G fighter now are united europe and *jap*


even worse than India, leave Jap, it is too much overated for military tech, there is a very big, big, big gap between civilian and military tech systems``````people from my circle dont even talk about Japan in this field````

however, they make superb small bits and bots, that I have to say`````well, they just cant put them all together to work perfectly````


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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Two examples from chinese LoCon programme & one from an unknown source. The stumbling block would be the turbine. Its the same two decades old story around FC1 turbines being repeated again.
> 
> I would agree with the 6 points of @Horus also including development of airforce space command.



Hi,

To a person with some intellect---that would a signal enough to understand the level of difficulty---but the level of thoughtlessness amongst young pakistanis is so severe that they have no clue what that means---.

What that means is that manufacturing a successful modern fighter aircraft engine maybe a 1000 times more difficult than manufacturing an atom bomb---.


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## dBSPL

I do not want to digress, but made quite erroneous determinations exist without enough information about Turkey's current installed capacity , contracts in progress in the international arena, as well as on ongoing infrastructure investments and guarantees legal and financial...

We expect to reach more than 70% of the sub-system by 2025. Because many projects for many years now began to become the final product. If there is a curiosity, we can evaluate more than 100 subsystems in its topic. The main problem is trying to exceed original mainframe design certification process in Turkey. The first step was the Hurkus project (and also included AESA certification process) was successfully completed. The second step will be the Hurjet LIFT. Turkey has the capacity of an important modernization projects but more importantly, completed their own first mission computers like OZGUR project almost 10 years ago . Together with the Hurjet project, the existing 4.5 generation systems and other ongoing projects will be tested for the first time on an indeginous design. TFX is a very long-term project, marathon and another topic.

Ok, i go back to the subject.And again I like to mention that the idea of having a common aviation infrastructure with Turkey's "in all circumstances allies / brother" countries like Pakistan. If I'm analyzing the situation correctly, I think that there is such a projection.

If China allows the integration of its technology (i mean which opened to Pakistan before and now) into Turkish systems, , Pakistan and Turkey (and indirectly, China) can establish a common aviation infrastructure in 30 years projection. If This common infrastructure to be established by Pakistan and Turkey, may followed by some countries like Russian natural market countries in Central Asia, and some US market in the Middle East/euro-asia

In other words, the fact that China plays a positive role in Turkish-Pakistani defense relations can produces both strategic and economic benefits. And as far as I can understand , the Chinese state will act rationally in this field. For example, I presume, we will see advanced derivative MILGEM classes at Karaçi Shipyard with bearing Chinese EW and Weapon systems.

PS
In addition, I need to specify: It is very important for Pakistan to establish the infrastructure that will produce 5 gen of jet within its own borders. That's what matters. Each other question is secondary. Because Pakistan is the eastern castle of our people. Pakistan's survival in aviation is more important than anything else.

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> super mushaq was comprehensive upgrade, read about it



Thanks, I know enough about Super Mushshak to know that all the upgrade work was done with the help out outside firms. Who do you think supplies the newer engine, propellers, or all the updated cockpit instrumentation. 

Anyways, an upgrade is not the same as designing the aircraft from bare bones. In the end, its still a Swedish design

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## CriticalThought

dBSPL said:


> I do not want to digress, but made quite erroneous determinations exist without enough information about Turkey's current installed capacity , contracts in progress in the international arena, as well as on ongoing infrastructure investments and guarantees legal and financial...
> 
> We expect to reach more than 70% of the sub-system by 2025. Because many projects for many years now began to become the final product. If there is a curiosity, we can evaluate more than 100 subsystems in its topic. The main problem is trying to exceed original mainframe design certification process in Turkey. The first step was the Hurkus project (and also included AESA certification process) was successfully completed. The second step will be the Hurjet LIFT. Turkey has the capacity of an important modernization projects but more importantly, completed their own first mission computers like OZGUR project almost 10 years ago . Together with the Hurjet project, the existing 4.5 generation systems and other ongoing projects will be tested for the first time on an indeginous design. TFX is a very long-term project, marathon and another topic.
> 
> Ok, i go back to the subject.And again I like to mention that the idea of having a common aviation infrastructure with Turkey's "in all circumstances allies / brother" countries like Pakistan. If I'm analyzing the situation correctly, I think that there is such a projection.
> 
> If China allows the integration of its technology (i mean which opened to Pakistan before and now) into Turkish systems, , Pakistan and Turkey (and indirectly, China) can establish a common aviation infrastructure in 30 years projection. If This common infrastructure to be established by Pakistan and Turkey, may followed by some countries like Russian natural market countries in Central Asia, and some US market in the Middle East/euro-asia
> 
> In other words, the fact that China plays a positive role in Turkish-Pakistani defense relations can produces both strategic and economic benefits. And as far as I can understand , the Chinese state will act rationally in this field. For example, I presume, we will see advanced derivative MILGEM classes at Karaçi Shipyard with bearing Chinese EW and Weapon systems.
> 
> PS
> In addition, I need to specify: It is very important for Pakistan to establish the infrastructure that will produce 5 gen of jet within its own borders. That's what matters. Each other question is secondary. Because Pakistan is the eastern castle of our people. Pakistan's survival in aviation is more important than anything else.



Thanks, a very sensible post.


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## messiach

Interesting.


Oscar said:


> Interim fighters were highly dependent upon economic conditions; however the lean was on the EF.



FC1 was a no go w/o russian assisstance. Wth an industrial base on respirator, your best option as they say - 'Boss is always right. When Boss is wrong, read rule number One.'



CriticalThought said:


> In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:
> 
> 1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
> 2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
> 3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
> 4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
> 5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.
> 
> This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.
> 
> @Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



If chinese can do it, we could have also done it. 

Thanks to turram khans like ijlal H zaidi & bullshitters like jamaat shah, we are where we are. These wretched souls & the mafias behind them raped this country. If atall, justice was possible.....




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> What that means is that manufacturing a successful modern fighter aircraft engine maybe a 1000 times more difficult than manufacturing an atom bomb---.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> FC1 was a no go w/o russian assisstance. Wth an industrial base on respirator, your best option as they say - 'Boss is always right. When Boss is wrong, read rule number One.'
> 
> 
> 
> If chinese can do it, we could have also done it.
> 
> Thanks to turram khans like ijlal H zaidi & bullshitters like jamaat shah, we are where we are. These wretched souls & the mafias behind them raped this country. If atall, justice was possible.....



Hi,

You are right in what you are saying---. If you had progressed at that time---we could have had a reasonable aircraft engine---.


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## messiach

Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> If you had progressed at that time---we could have had a reasonable aircraft engine---.

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## The Accountant

messiach said:


> Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.


This is so stupid of you to bring secterian differences here ... urdu speaking community was long removed from top bureaucratic levels back in 70s by bhutto and that was the same period the decline started ... sorry to see that you are not only miss quoting the facts by trying to create secterian divide ... only an insane person can say that water power and finance divisions are dominated by urdu speaking ... even the quota sysyem dont allow more than 2 to 3 percent of beaurecrates from karachi then how the hell urdu speaking can dominate 2 ministeries ?

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.




Hi,

Thank you for bringing that up---. The sectarian difference was real---.

You are talking about time 30 plus years ago---.


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## messiach

Interesting.


The Accountant said:


> urdu speaking community was long removed from top bureaucratic levels back in 70s by bhutto and that was the same period the decline started ...



Even better.


The Accountant said:


> ....only an insane person can say that water power and finance divisions are dominated by urdu speaking ... even the quota sysyem dont allow more than 2 to 3 percent of beaurecrates from karachi


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## Dazzler

messiach said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> Even better.



What do you mean by that?


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## messiach

MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property. 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Thank you for bringing that up---. The sectarian difference was real---.



Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.


The Accountant said:


> trying to create secterian divide

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.
> 
> 
> 
> Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.



Hi,

Bhutto only removed a very few of them---and I am not being prejudicial---.


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## Thorough Pro

What is PAC's contribution in that?
Unless you rollup your dhoti and sleeves, nothing will ever be achieved.
Success rides on the back of failures, and failures teach you what no collaboration, cooperation, or TOT can ever teach. To learn to swim you have to get wet and let go off of floating supports.





M16174 said:


> Might I be wrong, but *I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC*.
> 
> As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
> Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
> USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
> As did Alan say about J10.
> 
> We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.



That is the only way to get experience based knowledge, a key ingredient to grow in any area. There is a difference in getting expertise and hiring experts. Self sufficiency comes from former, not later. 



serenity said:


> This costs too much. You can do it but it will come with more costs because you are developing everything from scratch.



In a layman's terms I call that knowing
What to do (Design aspect), and
How to do (Industrial aspect)

Unless you have mastered the first, second is useless.
For example there are millions of mechanics who can run a lathe and copy a sample, but they can not produce an original working part unless someone with that knowledge provides them with a design. 




CriticalThought said:


> There is the design aspect and the industrial aspect. The only realistic way is to obtain the industrial aspect from China.



The thread just went south a few posts above.

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## CriticalThought

Thorough Pro said:


> What is PAC's contribution in that?
> Unless you rollup your dhoti and sleeves, nothing will ever be achieved.
> Success rides on the back of failures, and failures teach you what no collaboration, cooperation, or TOT can ever teach. To learn to swim you have to get wet and let go off of floating supports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the only way to get experience based knowledge, a key ingredient to grow in any area. There is a difference in getting expertise and hiring experts. Self sufficiency comes from former, not later.
> 
> 
> 
> In a layman's terms I call that knowing
> What to do (Design aspect), and
> How to do (Industrial aspect)
> 
> Unless you have mastered the first, second is useless.
> For example there are millions of mechanics who can run a lathe and copy a sample, but they can not produce an original working part unless someone with that knowledge provides them with a design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thread just went south a few posts above.



For cutting edge projects, the design actually drives the industrial manufacturing. For the SR-71, entirely new tooling had to be invented to shape and join titanium alloys. That is like the zenith of manufacturing capability.

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## The Accountant

messiach said:


> MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.
> 
> 
> 
> Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.


I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Bhutto only removed a very few of them---and I am not being prejudicial---.


Yes but transferred all of them to other counteries as counsulate officers as bureacracy of that time was very powerful and bhutto was power hungry ... he promoted persons of his choice on secretary level and introduced quotas to make sure that bureaucracy keep on coming from small ruler class that can be controlled and manupilated and the strong and highly skilled educated individuals do not join bureaucracy to keep upper hand of politicians ... there is a reason that Pakistan grew leaps and bounds in first two decades as it was being run by professionals in bureaucracy but bhutton change the laws to give decision making and execution powers to ministers which should have been limited to policy making only ... and result is known to everyone ...



messiach said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> Even better.


I used to respect you but now you not only lost my respect but i would like to say that if you cant contribute to my country by living here and face the problems then atleast try to not to create a divide ... people like you are the real culprit and fuel of divide and rule ... stay the hell out of affairs of my country if yoh contribute positively ...



Dazzler said:


> What do you mean by that?


Thats a rediculous statement and obviously shiw the personalitg of the person ...

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.
> 
> 
> 
> Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.


It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system. 

It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...

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## The Accountant

Oscar said:


> It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.
> 
> It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...


So do a punjabi, sindhi, balochi and pathan are ... there are good and bad people irrespective of nationality ... we knows that zardari is sindhi and NS is punjabi but do we say that punjabi politicians looted the whole Pakistan and transfer money abroad or a sindhi prime president looted 10% of every business transaction for good 5 years ? ... no because we understand that its is above community ... traitors are in all the community and same are patriotics ... but unfortunately few people are so naive that they bring own personal biased as a trend ...

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.
> 
> It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...



I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.

My father was a staunch supporter, and I grew up fanatically looking up to Altaf Hussain. Until ninth grade when the mum of my Punjabi friend got to know about my affiliations. She sat down with me and painstakingly explained the problems with Altaf Hussain. She witnessed his antics first hand during early 80s in Karachi Uni. His favorite act was breaking soft drink bottles on the heads of opponents. His entire rise to power was based on brutality. Even during his escape, he had the guards accompanying him to the airport executed. That knocked a lot of sense into my head. I can't say the same for my father who remained a supporter till death.

My uncle was a sector incharge. He managed to reach Canada. He tells the story of a friend there who used to spontaneously fall into prostration all the time. When quizzed, he revealed that he tied someone behind a car/motorcycle and dragged him around. Each time he remembered that, he fell into prostration.

My cousin joined a technical college in Karachi. On his very first day, he was quizzed by a guy holding a very large knife. During one clash with JI students, the MQM APMSO gang fired a burst of AK-47 fire into a JI student's head, due to which his brain literally splattered on the wall.

The guy who used to come to tutor us at home was a previous unit incharge at a Karachi college. He used to boast about armed clashes with JI. They used to form positions around the college, the girls filling up magazines while the guys fired. Once during a takeover they tried breaking in using a car. His friend received a full burst to the stomach that caused the guts to spill out. He literally pushed them back with hands and rushed to the hospital.

There are a thousand and one such stories involving an entire generation. And there are reasons behind it.

During the early seventies, my father hobnobbed with Sindhi elite in a social club at a five star hotel. He spoke Sindhi so fluently, you could not discern he is actually an Urdu speaker. He heard people saying we are going to push these Muhajirs into the Arabian Sea. Fast forward to circa 2001 my cousin, who similarly speaks Sindhi, heard the exact same words in the Sindh Secretariat.

This exploitation isn't limited to only MQM. I got on the radar of JI activists during my college days. On day, a car started following me as I walked to college and the person driving insisted that I get in. Eventually I got into the car. Luckily he did drive me to the college but he also offered me to join JI which I tactfully refused. Then one day, I was reading in the library when two JI students sat next to me. They started talking to each other saying things like what is the use of studying? Why waste time with books? Blah blah. Thankfully I survived college.

I consider myself very different from most Urdu speakers. But decades if poisonous propaganda and organized marginalization have left them in a very bad intellectual state. Which is why we need education.

Education. Education. Education. That is what we need.

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.
> 
> My father was a staunch supporter, and I grew up fanatically looking up to Altaf Hussain. Until ninth grade when the mum of my Punjabi friend got to know about my affiliations. She sat down with me and painstakingly explained the problems with Altaf Hussain. She witnessed his antics first hand during early 80s in Karachi Uni. His favorite act was breaking soft drink bottles on the heads of opponents. His entire rise to power was based on brutality. Even during his escape, he had the guards accompanying him to the airport executed. That knocked a lot of sense into my head. I can't say the same for my father who remained a supporter till death.
> 
> My uncle was a sector incharge. He managed to reach Canada. He tells the story of a friend there who used to spontaneously fall into prostration all the time. When quizzed, he revealed that he tied someone behind a car/motorcycle and dragged him around. Each time he remembered that, he fell into prostration.
> 
> My cousin joined a technical college in Karachi. On his very first day, he was quizzed by a guy holding a very large knife. During one clash with JI students, the MQM APMSO gang fired a burst of AK-47 fire into a JI student's head, due to which his brain literally splattered on the wall.
> 
> The guy who used to come to tutor us at home was a previous unit incharge at a Karachi college. He used to boast about armed clashes with JI. They used to form positions around the college, the girls filling up magazines while the guys fired. Once during a takeover they tried breaking in using a car. His friend received a full burst to the stomach that caused the guts to spill out. He literally pushed them back with hands and rushed to the hospital.
> 
> There are a thousand and one such stories involving an entire generation. And there are reasons behind it.
> 
> During the early seventies, my father hobnobbed with Sindhi elite in a social club at a five star hotel. He spoke Sindhi so fluently, you could not discern he is actually an Urdu speaker. He heard people saying we are going to push these Muhajirs into the Arabian Sea. Fast forward to circa 2001 my cousin, who similarly speaks Sindhi, heard the exact same words in the Sindh Secretariat.
> 
> This exploitation isn't limited to only MQM. I got on the radar of JI activists during my college days. On day, a car started following me as I walked to college and the person driving insisted that I get in. Eventually I got into the car. Luckily he did drive me to the college but he also offered me to join JI which I tactfully refused. Then one day, I was reading in the library when two JI students sat next to me. They started talking to each other saying things like what is the use of studying? Why waste time with books? Blah blah. Thankfully I survived college.
> 
> I consider myself very different from most Urdu speakers. But decades if poisonous propaganda and organized marginalization have left them in a very bad intellectual state. Which is why we need education.
> 
> Education. Education. Education. That is what we need.


I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...

Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...

Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit

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## HRK

CriticalThought said:


> I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.


actually not one but three 
- First generation of Altaf and his companions and elders 
- Than Generation of kids during mid 80s and 90s


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## khanmubashir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It betrays common sense to go with Turkey on a JV for a 5th gen aircraft---when China---which is under massive threat from the US is pouring billions into its stealth program---.
> 
> And Paf would leave it to go with Turkey who hardly has any funds for such a massive venture---that is TREASON---.[/QUOTE
> Turks r procuring f35 even make parts of its fuselage Turkey is the European hub of f35
> Maintainace so they must have some knowhow and industrial base
> We selected there irst Pods for jf17
> Turks already working. With rolls Royce on engine
> In case of j31 conflicting reports emerge time to time that its gonna be shelved
> And then there is question of tech transfer
> 
> I believe pak would procure some j31as interim solution if they become operational as turks would procure f35 but both nations should work together using there experience of respective jets to develop tfx/azm


Turks r procuring f35 even make parts of its fuselage Turkey is the European hub of f35
Maintainace so they must have some knowhow and industrial base
We selected there irst Pods for jf17
Turks already working. With rolls Royce on engine
In case of j31 conflicting reports emerge time to time that its gonna be shelved 
And then there is question of tech transfer 

I believe pak would procure some j31as interim solution if they become operational as turks would procure f35 but both nations should work together using there experience of respective jets to develop tfx/azm

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## Cookie Monster

The Accountant said:


> I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...
> 
> Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...
> 
> Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...
> 
> Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...
> 
> Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit


Very well said. We as Pakistanis need to put this Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan, etc. crap behind us. I'm not dissing these identities...one can be a proud Punjabi or a proud Pathan...but this shouldn't get in the way of our nationality(Pakistani). This "us vs them" mentality is dangerous...it divides us. This is exactly what our enemies want...it's been done before with Bengalis(Bangladeshis). Yes tensions existed...unfairness occurred...but it was fueled and hatred was incited to the point of no return.

In this case too...among various ethnic groups in Pakistan...yes unfairness has occurred...but at the end of the day we should put in front of us the common cause, which is _a strong prosperous Pakistan. _Being divided and pointing fingers leads us in the opposite direction. Regardless of ethnicity we should bring to justice the corrupt traitors(like Altaf Hussein, Zardari, etc.) or if that's not possible, at the very least we should try to keep them out of power. Power should be given to those who are right for the job and have the qualities to be good leaders for the nation...again regardless of their ethnic background.

P.S. let's all try to come back to topic here...which is FC-31...bcuz otherwise this sectarian/ethnic crap is going to be a long discussion with no end in sight.

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## Dazzler

Pretty shallow and pathetic thinking shown by a supposedly knowledgeable member is indeed unfortunate. Mistakes were made by all and there is no reason to bring all that into this thread. Open another thread and discuss your regrets there.

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...
> 
> 
> Yes but transferred all of them to other counteries as counsulate officers as bureacracy of that time was very powerful and bhutto was power hungry ... he promoted persons of his choice on secretary level and introduced quotas to make sure that bureaucracy keep on coming from small ruler class that can be controlled and manupilated and the strong and highly skilled educated individuals do not join bureaucracy to keep upper hand of politicians ... there is a reason that Pakistan grew leaps and bounds in first two decades as it was being run by professionals in bureaucracy but bhutton change the laws to give decision making and execution powers to ministers which should have been limited to policy making only ... and result is known to everyone ...
> 
> 
> I used to respect you but now you not only lost my respect but i would like to say that if you cant contribute to my country by living here and face the problems then atleast try to not to create a divide ... people like you are the real culprit and fuel of divide and rule ... stay the hell out of affairs of my country if yoh contribute positively ...
> 
> 
> Thats a rediculous statement and obviously shiw the personalitg of the person ...



Hi,

Only if it was in black or white---.

when a knowledgeable person says all good that you want to hear is fine---but when you hear what you don't like---then there is a problem with that person---.


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## aliyusuf

A very knowledgeable and otherwise decent person can also make a pretty ordinary or offensive statement. Nobody is infallible. We all say or do something that is not acceptable to some. 

We should only point out the person's folly and then move on. Because as no one is above reproach, being knowledgeable and generally decent doesn't give someone a carte blanche to say or opine whatever they think without caring for other's sensibilities. Nor should we completely dismiss such a person as an absolute wrong doer, in the context of the knowledge and insight that persons usually shares and provides.

I too am Urdu speaking and advise everyone to end all this and get back to the main topic FC-31.

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## messiach

@Oscar @The Accountant @everybodyelse

Quota or no quota is an irrelevant debate. The tensions between provincial bureacracy & CSP cadre in the centre apexed during late 90s with many postings and transfers on hold & many CEE cadre decisions landed at LHC doorsteps. Many SG&D officers i know personally, were send back to centre or 'khuddaylined'. The 'alletist group' in the centre that i mention more often than not, than realised that they were being exposed more often than not. It was now time for a face change. They came out with a plan which most honest CSP cadre including my own son calls 'Plan - lets get the hell out here'. The method that came out of this sinister plan was the '18th amendment' by virtue of which first they transferred all resources to the provinces & then very conveniently slipped out into provincial services with all the resources still in their lap. And worst of all this dubious honour of constitutional amendment was dropped on the shoulders of politicians, who gladly accepted all the responsibility. @Oscar quota system is a smoke screen, behind which this 'alletist group'' has committed henious crimes against this docile nation. I mean, this is like jews, whenever Anthony Sutton exposed their deeds under trilateral commision, they came out against him under the disguise and deception of anti-semitism. Whenever I try to expose their crimes against this nation, these blood thirsty pack of hounds try to hide behind quota system.

Anyways, the message is directed to an 'alletist group' & not to a language based community.



Oscar said:


> It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.
> 
> It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...



Ok.


The Accountant said:


> I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...
> 
> Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...
> 
> Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...
> 
> Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...
> 
> Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit



I would like to know but only PM it. Their maybe entirely innocent names that you may never have met or known & they could be my friends or collegues of past.

Language is a great assett but when used to create administrative cartels, secluded caucuses within administration, power-houses within a government, that alienates and destroys. This has happened in the past.



The Accountant said:


> I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> @Oscar @The Accountant @everybodyelse
> 
> Quota or no quota is an irrelevant debate. The tensions between provincial bureacracy & CSP cadre in the centre apexed during late 90s with many postings and transfers on hold & many CEE cadre decisions landed at LHC doorsteps. Many SG&D officers i know personally, were send back to centre or 'khuddaylined'. The 'alletist group' in the centre that i mention more often than not, than realised that they were being exposed more often than not. It was now time for a face change. They came out with a plan which most honest CSP cadre including my own son calls 'Plan - lets get the hell out here'. The method that came out of this sinister plan was the '18th amendment' by virtue of which first they transferred all resources to the provinces & then very conveniently slipped out into provincial services with all the resources still in their lap. And worst of all this dubious honour of constitutional amendment was dropped on the shoulders of politicians, who gladly accepted all the responsibility. @Oscar quota system is a smoke screen, behind which this 'alletist group'' has committed henious crimes against this docile nation. I mean, this is like jews, whenever Anthony Sutton exposed their deeds under trilateral commision, they came out against him under the disguise and deception of anti-semitism. Whenever I try to expose their crimes against this nation, these blood thirsty pack of hounds try to hide behind quota system.
> 
> Anyways, the message is directed to an 'alletist group' & not to a language based community.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.


I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.


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## messiach

Yes. Just bare facts.

I was at a briefing with a ranking CSP officer IHZ, for purposes of modesty i dont wish to name. During our conversation, i for the first time came to know of the 'hagelian dialect'. This was a CSP officer advising me howto & hownot to rule. Hagelian dialect is where you create a 'group' & then an 'anti-group' and then bring these two groups into a catastrophic but controlled conflict where you conrol the war, its objectives and the end. Now, this was a CSP officer talking. This is how this 'alletist group based on a language' used this country as an experimental pot for their dirty ends. These demons sucked the blood out of us and our children & hennce my sensitivity for this subject.




Oscar said:


> I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
> Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
> Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.





Oscar said:


> I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
> Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
> Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.


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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Yes. Just bare facts.
> 
> I was at a briefing with a ranking CSP officer IHZ, for purposes of modesty i dont wish to name. During our conversation, i for the first time came to know of the 'hagelian dialect'. This was a CSP officer advising me howto & hownot to rule. Hagelian dialect is where you create a 'group' & then an 'anti-group' and then bring these two groups into a catastrophic but controlled conflict where you conrol the war, its objectives and the end. Now, this was a CSP officer talking. This is how this 'alletist group based on a language' used this country as an experimental pot for their dirty ends. These demons sucked the blood out of us and our children & hennce my sensitivity for this subject.


That is essentially a human issue and cannot be fixed overnight. Even in a well “integrated” society on the surface like the UK you will see it pop up

A gentleman who hailed from Ridoli in UP, graduate from Indian Naval academy and had his Pak Navy number in the early teens(12 or 13) and provided nav planning for Dwarka was
sidelined after he disagreed during 71 on operational decisions with one of these good ol boys group(Bhuttos flat and flabby ones) who were keen to keep decision making (to be interpreted as sitting around watching kemari burn while chugging drinks and commenting “what a lovely bonfire!”) and left as commodore. 

Your experience is with one group, Ive lived in three provinces and everyone has black hands and feet with the stench of nepotism, racism and corruption all over.. be it a Punjabi or Pathan or whosoever. 

But, kudos to those throughout the country who still fight and try to stave off such disasters to get things done.. they are a reason why we arent a vassal state or like Burma.

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## Readerdefence

Hi to all learned and senior posters if we are still in j31 can you all please delete your irrelevant 
Post as mods also a very busy person not have enough time to culminate all these irrelevant posts 
I hope my senior colleague don’t mind 
Thank you


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## credence

I heard that Turkey is planning to assemble a 5th Gen fighter by acquiring sub-systems from all over the world, including Engine, Air frame and stealth technology. The reason why Turkey invites Pak is because he wants to get help from China through Pak. 
5th Gen fighter is really a very hard project. Considering Turkey's limited economic, technology, talents and Research and Industrial capability, without the help from outside, it's not optimistic about the fate of this project. Look, how India was/is so struggling in the 4th Gen Tejas. Advanced countries like Korea and Japan also got frustrated in their own 5th gen. Turkey had never designed even a 4th gen fighter, let alone 5th gen. It would be a long long long way to go.
Anyway, Pak would definitely get help from China on 5th Gen fighter, but not sure if Turkey will get involved.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Only if it was in black or white---.
> 
> when a knowledgeable person says all good that you want to hear is fine---but when you hear what you don't like---then there is a problem with that person---.


Same is applied to learned members, when we agree to your opinions than its fine but if we dont then we are inexperienced and naive ... thats incorrect approach ...

You know in every soft skill trainings we are told that leadership starts from listening skills and understand others by controlling your own self beliefs and opinions only then a leader can make a team of energetic and high calibre individuals otherwise you would be ended up becoming a boss of bunch of yes man ...

What i am trying to say that senior memeber should have to look the bigger picture free from personnal bias otherwise if you are against one power group and not the others than probably you are part of other power group ... it appears that you are not against making power group but against those who are going against your power group ...

Dont we know that we have power group based on all languages and all provinces ? Then why condemning just one ? Because it is against your own personal power group ?

We have to raise ourselves above this in order to unify ourselves as a nation ...

As a senior member we look upto you guys to give us an image of division free Pakistan ... to motivate us to fight against these power groups irrespective of their community but if you condemn one and praise other than indirectly you are forcing us to side with power group of my community and start working against yours ...

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## cabatli_53

LeGenD said:


> We can approach Turkey.
> 
> They have contributions in F-35 program.




Pakistan operates two origin of fighter jet from West and East. It is the diversification policy of Pakistani Airforce not to put all eggs into same basket to benefit the advancement of different origin fighters in crisis times. When Pakistani aircrafts approached to the end of operational time scale, I firstly thought that You would replace them with same logic under the same policy. In this aspect, I considered that F-16 fighters would be replaced with a Western origin fighters, while continuation of Jf-17 may be done over another Chinese origin new generation aircraft or newer blocks but;

Pakistan made a vital decision to have a 5th generation aircraft under the name of Azm. Pakistan wants freedom on next generation fighter and so my calculations have been collapsed. With project AZM, The aircraft Pakistani Airforce will operate by 2030’s will be provided with multi-role fighter which is going to be manufactured in Pakistani institutes. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan is searching JV and collaboration opportunity with similar countries having similar programs. In this aspect, Turkey’s Tf-X and Chinese J-31 will come into mind for likely rivals in 2020’s. I know the will of Turkish officials to collect brother states into such a large and strategic program so It is officially stated out that negotiations have been proceeding with a couple of states. It is even reported that a few state wants to join into development and joint-funding to have a place in Tf-x. The real impact will take effect in 2023 when Tf-X roll-out ceremony will be carried out in front of many delegation coming from friendly states and We may see the name of Pakistan on Tf-X fuselage. Azerbaijan is another country who officially requested to join into program.

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## cabatli_53

LKJ86 said:


> When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
> And J-20 also can be exported at that time...




Turkey produces big scale strategic projects for not only meeting the requirement of Armed Forces but also improving the technological infrastructure and the number of experienced engineering army under the lights of domestic research and development activities. I mean continuation of programs are vital If you walk on this path with that logic. The country who completed to develop a 5th generation fighter, will certainly proceed to develop further variants. See Atak and Atak-2, Firtina and Firtina-2...etc The technological gap between advanced states motivate us to concentrate more over ambitious targets to catch up their efforts. If we consider US to be sole powerhouse of stealth aircraft tech who has successfully developed a matured/advanced 5th generation fighter for export markets at present, We can assume that from 2018 to 2030 won’t be a long time differences to pass into 6th generation fighters, so I don't suppose anyone out of US succeeds to reveal a full configuration 6th generation in such a short time period so I don’t think the gap will be such large in 2030’s.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:
> 
> _“Importantly, *joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey*. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”_​
> November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:
> 
> Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.
> 
> _“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them.* For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”
> _
> April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.
> 
> Source: Bol Narratives (link)
> 
> _No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement._
> 
> Alan Warnes
> 
> Source: Twitter​Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?




Within 1-2 years, Tf-X will pass into critical design/prototype production phase. According to TAI officials, The partnerships for the Tf-X will be more clear and trust of likely partners to the program will be improved. I think Partnership of Pakistan and Turkey for next generation aircraft program is more logical than any other alternative because We will learn many things under the umbrella of Tf-X/AZM program which is in its design phase. Turkey wants to establish a joint training and striking aircraft infrastructure containing three states and acting accordingly.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

cabatli_53 said:


> Within 1-2 years, Tf-X will pass into critical design/prototype production phase. According to TAI officials, The partnerships for the Tf-X will be more clear and trust of likely partners to the program will be improved. I think Partnership of Pakistan and Turkey for next generation aircraft program is more logical than any other alternative because We will learn many things under the umbrella of Tf-X/AZM program which is in its design phase. Turkey wants to establish a joint training and striking aircraft infrastructure containing three states and acting accordingly.


There is logic in your statement that Turkey wants to establish a joint training and strike aircraft infrastructure initially with 3 partner states but this number would increase gradually. 

Over the years we have learned that as far as training is concerned these 3 states have been coordinating and facilitating each other with many MOU's being signed but no official agreement has ever been made public at-least.

Now getting back on the topic of TF-X / AZM. Many times in the past quoted that PAF should have acquired the design of single-engine TF-X specially after TuAF chose the multi-engine one. Both designs are similar and can be easily worked on simultaneously. This would have been similar to what F-15's and F-16's achieved back in the late 70's and early 80's. 

The design chosen by Turkey is of an air superiority fighter as they were already procuring the F-35's which were multirole, whereas Pakistan was looking for a multirole design that could have been augmented by one or two squadrons of air superiority fighter bought directly. However with the restriction that might be forced upon F-35's this possibility seems more logical. 

The issue on hand is how far has PAF gone in on J-31 or J-20 program. Things will be clearer once the JF-17 Block III is made public. If this aircraft has been heavily modified in its design then it is highly likely PAF would continue with it and try ways to use its design features in any 5th gen program.

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## messiach

The water&power crisis luming in our metropolitans incld karachi of today has its seeds sown 4 decades ago. Punjabi or sindhi administration only rose to absolute prominence post mid-90s when nasty shareefain created their power caucuses. Before mid-90s, it was all a relentless rule of untouchable power cuacus which dictated pakistans water&power generation, fuel&oils, borders&customs, ports&shipping. I once said to saeed mehdi, your family business of long is oil&gas, why would you allow hydro-electriks in this country? Wickedly smiling he said thats why we are all here. 'Bilkul Baap ka maal tha Pakistan'. 

I hope this CJ can stay for another 20 yrs although I see his efforts as too little & way too late.

@The Accountant This country was created as federation of federating units powered by a legal framework as envisioned by the Qiad-e-Azam. We will survive as long as we remain within the order. We cannot survive & no country can survive by creating language & ethnic based power caucuses with unparallel omnipotent authority within the administration. Additionally, I do sincerely apologise, it may have hurt you in ways.




Oscar said:


> That is essentially a human issue and cannot be fixed overnight. Even in a well “integrated” society on the surface like the UK you will see it pop up
> 
> A gentleman who hailed from Ridoli in UP, graduate from Indian Naval academy and had his Pak Navy number in the early teens(12 or 13) and provided nav planning for Dwarka was
> sidelined after he disagreed during 71 on operational decisions with one of these good ol boys group(Bhuttos flat and flabby ones) who were keen to keep decision making (to be interpreted as sitting around watching kemari burn while chugging drinks and commenting “what a lovely bonfire!”) and left as commodore.
> 
> Your experience is with one group, Ive lived in three provinces and everyone has black hands and feet with the stench of nepotism, racism and corruption all over.. be it a Punjabi or Pathan or whosoever.
> 
> But, kudos to those throughout the country who still fight and try to stave off such disasters to get things done.. they are a reason why we arent a vassal state or like Burma.

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## The Accountant

messiach said:


> The water&power crisis luming in our metropolitans incld karachi of today has its seeds sown 4 decades ago. Punjabi or sindhi administration only rose to absolute prominence post mid-90s when nasty shareefain created their power caucuses. Before mid-90s, it was all a relentless rule of untouchable power cuacus which dictated pakistans water&power generation, fuel&oils, borders&customs, ports&shipping. I once said to saeed mehdi, your family business of long is oil&gas, why would you allow hydro-electriks in this country? Wickedly smiling he said thats why we are all here. 'Bilkul Baap ka maal tha Pakistan'.
> 
> I hope this CJ can stay for another 20 yrs although I see his efforts as too little & way too late.
> 
> @The Accountant This country was created as federation of federating units powered by a legal framework as envisioned by the Qiad-e-Azam. We will survive as long as we remain within the order. We cannot survive & no country can survive by creating language & ethnic based power caucuses with unparallel omnipotent authority within the administration. Additionally, I do sincerely apologise, it may have hurt you in ways.



Thanks for understanding.

The reason we have difference of opinion is i belong to a generation who has seen the political elites of 90s and we realize that this community based division has given us nothing but hatred .... my father also has opinion similar to yours but we need to pass this ... there is a reason our generation supports IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different ethinicity ...

We should keep our past differences aside and has to remove this community boundries and should work on building Pakistani nation ... we should appreciate the work of our elder generation but on the same time we should condemn the communal politics of our seniors ... which includes you and my father both ... only then we can unite and prosper ... i hope you understand ...

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## HRK

The Accountant said:


> IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different nationality ...


IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different ethnicity

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## chengdusudise

SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter


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## Kompromat

chengdusudise said:


> SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter




Are they developing one?


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## Trailer23

chengdusudise said:


> SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter


I beg to differ...

The FC-31 is still trial phase. And with the new engines it might be getting in the near future - it just might be the Aircraft the Navy might consider.

As for the comparison with the J20 - I don't see anyone comparing the F-22 (raptor) with the F-35 (JSF).

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## credence

Rumors came that SAC has got the orders from Navy for J31. A new version of J31 is currently under development. It will match the timeline of type-003 carrier ship. This new bird will be equipped with two WS-19 engines.


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## syed_yusuf

credence said:


> Rumors came that SAC has got the orders from Navy for J31. A new version of J31 is currently under development. It will match the timeline of type-003 carrier ship. This new bird will be equipped with two WS-19 engines.



TVC?


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## credence

syed_yusuf said:


> TVC?


TVC is definitely on the road map, because China has this technology. The research has been conducted for decades. But we won't see TVC in the first block of mass production.
SAC is currently very quiet about J31, because this bird is under modification to meet PLAN's requirements. PLAAF will also purchase some. This project is now survived. You will see.

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## Akasa

credence said:


> TVC is definitely on the road map, because China has this technology. The research has been conducted for decades. But we won't see TVC in the first block of mass production.
> SAC is currently very quiet about J31, because this bird is under modification to meet PLAN's requirements. PLAAF will also purchase some. This project is now survived. You will see.



I'm guessing that this rumor came from Chinese bloggers like *PB19980515* and not from that Aviation Week November article?


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## credence

Akasa said:


> I'm guessing that this rumor came from Chinese bloggers like *PB19980515* and not from that Aviation Week November article?


It has been many times rumor has been proved to be true! There is no need to give an official announcement.


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## dBSPL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069109264013176832
I hope these three countries join forces for Project AZM. And hopefully we will see the new generation JF17 mainframes in some Turkish countries inventory.

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## HRK

dBSPL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069109264013176832
> I hope these three countries join forces for Project AZM. And hopefully we will see the new generation JF17 mainframes in some Turkish countries inventory.


never trust any news about Pakistan from Indian source ....

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## silent hawk

In my opinion Project Azm is a waste of money.
The future belongs to UCAVs. That is where we should be investing.
We would not have been wasting this money if political oversight had provided the required check and balances to rationalize military spending


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## Kompromat

Agreed. The Americans are morons for investing 1t in JSF. Because other countries are going to takeover the US technologically. 




silent hawk said:


> In my opinion Project Azm is a waste of money.
> The future belongs to UCAVs. That is where we should be investing.
> We would not have been wasting this money if political oversight had provided the required check and balances to rationalize military spending

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## silent hawk

Horus said:


> Agreed. The Americans are morons for investing 1t in JSF. Because other countries are going to takeover the US technologically.



Is there a way to like a post here?


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## Trango Towers

Horus said:


> Agreed. The Americans are morons for investing 1t in JSF. Because other countries are going to takeover the US technologically.


Ouch


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## MastanKhan

Horus said:


> Agreed. The Americans are morons for investing 1t in JSF. Because other countries are going to takeover the US technologically.



Hi,

It won't happen---without the US permission---.


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## cabatli_53

silent hawk said:


> In my opinion Project Azm is a waste of money.
> The future belongs to UCAVs. That is where we should be investing.
> We would not have been wasting this money if political oversight had provided the required check and balances to rationalize military spending



US-F22/35
Russia-T57
China-J20/31
UK-Tempest
Europe- Eurofighter-2
Turkey-TF-X
S.Korea/Indonesia-KF-X

World think otherwise.

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## Muhammad Omar

Pakistan will get both maybe 

As when the news of project AZM came out they said about 2 fighter aircraft one was termed as medium term and other long term plan to replace F-16 

Mid term might be FC-31 and long term maybe TAI TFX and TAKNTFX isn't coming before 2035 while FC-31 is not coming before 2025


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## Nasr

Project Azm has far reaching consequences other than to be able to manufacture stealth aircraft. The project's objectives are more than what they appear to be and Pakistan Air Force took the correct decision when they opted to go ahead with it.

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## Fawadqasim1

silent hawk said:


> In my opinion Project Azm is a waste of money.
> The future belongs to UCAVs. That is where we should be investing.
> We would not have been wasting this money if political oversight had provided the required check and balances to rationalize military spending


Project azm will enable us to design and fabricate stealth ucavs

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## 帅的一匹

Muhammad Omar said:


> Pakistan will get both maybe
> 
> As when the news of project AZM came out they said about 2 fighter aircraft one was termed as medium term and other long term plan to replace F-16
> 
> Mid term might be FC-31 and long term maybe TAI TFX and TAKNTFX isn't coming before 2035 while FC-31 is not coming before 2025


TFX is too far away.


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## Muhammad Omar

wanglaokan said:


> TFX is too far away.


F-16's aren't going anywhere till 2030 probably


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## araz

snow lake said:


> Ouch


Kaka thanu hoya kee see jadoun thanu ban kar ditta. Stay on the straight and narrow now.
A


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## Incog_nito

I think so PAF might not be interested in it as PAF can develop it's own 5th Gen. But let's see if SU-35s are not coming then J-31 might be the answer.


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## Nasr

According to current ACM, Pakistan will be looking into designing, building, testing and manufacturing it's Gen-5 Stealth Fighter from scratch. Which a very ambitious plan, but when one can clearly see China with its enormous wealth, struggle to design and manufacture durable, high performance jet engines for its fighter aircraft. Then what chance does Pakistan have in getting everything done from scratch? No disrespect intended, but this sort of ambition is vividly reminiscent of what the indians have tried to do with tejas. Unless of course if they plan to develop the stealth jet but incorporate the engine from China or Russia. If that's the case, then I think PAC would be able to successfully accomplish this.

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## Maxpane

Hm we can wait

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## JohnWick

IM Ozair said:


> PAF can develop it's own 5th Gen.


True.


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## salman-1

I think we can only design it, but manufacturing all components not possible specifically the engine, we have no facility even producing a Mushaq engine. It's a very expensive than a long way for Pakistan atleast. Turkey who assembled and manufactured many parts of F16s is still not able to produce a close performance engine. Still struggling. Azm project has alot of Azm in it but not basis to complete it.

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## JohnWick

salman-1 said:


> we have no facility even producing a Mushaq engine. .


Really I thought we priduce it indigenous.


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## Nasr

JohnWick said:


> Really I thought we priduce it indigenous.



Mushaq have IO-360-AIB6 Textron Lycoming piston engines, the manufacturer of these engines is an American company based out of Williamsport, Pennsylvania.

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## JohnWick

Ghazwa1 said:


> Mushaq have IO-360-AIB6 Textron Lycoming piston engines, the manufacturer of these engines is an American company based out of Williamsport, Pennsylvania.


Thank you Sir I thought that it manufacture is Saab Sweden.

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## credence

I think it's too crazy to design from scratch. few countries in this world are able to do this, because even you have money, you may not have the technology and talents, and even you have money, tech and talents and are able to design one, you may not have the advanced industry infrastructure to manufacture it.

Because China is huge, he always can collect enough money to pursue advanced technology, but still had been struggling for decades. From that, you can see how difficult it is.




Ghazwa1 said:


> According to current ACM, Pakistan will be looking into designing, building, testing and manufacturing it's Gen-5 Stealth Fighter from scratch. Which a very ambitious plan, but when one can clearly see China with its enormous wealth, struggle to design and manufacture durable, high performance jet engines for its fighter aircraft. Then what chance does Pakistan have in getting everything done from scratch? No disrespect intended, but this sort of ambition is vividly reminiscent of what the indians have tried to do with tejas. Unless of course if they plan to develop the stealth jet but incorporate the engine from China or Russia. If that's the case, then I think PAC would be able to successfully accomplish this.


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## Tank131

Ghazwa1 said:


> According to current ACM, Pakistan will be looking into designing, building, testing and manufacturing it's Gen-5 Stealth Fighter from scratch. Which a very ambitious plan, but when one can clearly see China with its enormous wealth, struggle to design and manufacture durable, high performance jet engines for its fighter aircraft. Then what chance does Pakistan have in getting everything done from scratch? No disrespect intended, but this sort of ambition is vividly reminiscent of what the indians have tried to do with tejas. Unless of course if they plan to develop the stealth jet but incorporate the engine from China or Russia. If that's the case, then I think PAC would be able to successfully accomplish this.



Indeginous and from scratch are terms used loosely in Pakistan. I still think Project Azm will end up being FC-31 (More likely) or TFX (Less likely) with PAF flare,meaning modified and maybe having some Pakistani tech on it. They may take an airframe and add some turnish and chinese components,some local components, aand a russian engine and Call it a day. Or they will hire outside design bureaus like SAC, CAC, TAI, Sukhoi and Mikoyan on a consultant basis to help design and test various components along side Pakistani engineers but wholey owned by PAC. This includes airframe, electronics and engine.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Indeginous and from scratch are terms used loosely in Pakistan. I still think Project Azm will end up being FC-31 (More likely) or TFX (Less likely) with PAF flare,meaning modified and maybe having some Pakistani tech on it. They may take an airframe and add some turnish and chinese components,some local components, aand a russian engine and Call it a day. *Or they will hire outside design bureaus like SAC, CAC, TAI, Sukhoi and Mikoyan on a consultant basis to help design and test various components along side Pakistani engineers but wholey owned by PAC. This includes airframe, electronics and engine.*


IMO...it seems to be going that way (bold).

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## credence

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...it seems to be going that way (bold).



Otherwise, no way. I know it's not pleasure to hear that, but it's the reality.

Actually, even for purchasing sub-systems to assemble, it is still not an easy job, let alone that you may not be able to get desired sub-systems with only money.

Money is important, but not everything.

TFX is something like Teja. Too many unknown, uncertainties.

Considering the friendship between China and Pak, probably J31 or J31 variant is the thing that one can count on.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...it seems to be going that way (bold).



If that’s the case then this plane won’t take off till 2030s with possible induction around mid to late 2030s. It also means that PAF has chosen the most risky and expensive route.

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## GriffinsRule

Falcon26 said:


> If that’s the case then this plane won’t take off till 2030s with possible induction around mid to late 2030s. It also means that PAF has chosen the most risky and expensive route.



That is the time frame already given, with IOC production starting in about a decade. Following FOC, serial production probably will be in the mid 2030s.

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## Falcon26

GriffinsRule said:


> That is the time frame already given, with IOC production starting in about a decade. Following FOC, serial production probably will be in the mid 2030s.



Hopefully it doesn’t turn into HAL LCA because Pakistan has neither the technological, industrial or the financial means to undertake such a massive project

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...it seems to be going that way (bold).



I think that is the smartest way to proceed. It will give you a crash course in aviation technology and rapidly build your capacity and capability if PAC is working along side these design houses. I think of it as Turkey buying the Mangusta design but at an earlier phase, where instead of buying the finished product they bought the rights and design (and assisted in the design) of the finished product and its individual components.

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## abaseen99

*FC31 may have been out, Pakistan's next-generation stealth fighter or choose to change the dragon*
*QUWA, the famous defense website in Pakistan, recently reported on the recent progress of the country's AZM stealth fighter project, mentioning that Pakistan will set up a special economic zone with the help of China to produce this new generation of fighter aircraft. For the first time, the two countries will jointly produce navigation systems, radar systems and airborne weapons for new fighters in Pakistani factories. Previously, the US media also reported that Pakistani Ministry of Planning and Development officials confirmed that the project will expand China-Pakistan cooperation on JF-17 fighte*
*This is likely to indicate that Pakistan has chosen Chengfei as a partner in the AZM project. The new generation of stealth fighters will be the legendary JF-17 "Zhenlong" stealth version, not Shen Fei's FC-31 "鹘鹰" .
In October of this year, the network accidentally exposed the model of three single-shot stealth fighters, one of which was named JF-17.6, one could not see the sideboard number of the cockpit, and the last one was named JF-20. From the appearance, the JF-17.6 and the unnamed models belong to the direct stealth improvement of the JF-17 "Zhenlong" fighter, retaining the basic aerodynamic layout of the JF-17, such as the DSI without the boundary layer air inlet, Gothic The pointed arch has a large side strip, but the side of the front fuselage adds a hidden ridgeline, and the rear fuselage is changed from a single vertical tail to a cambered double tail. JF-17.6 uses a belly-mounted semi-buried bomb and a stealth conformal weapon pod on the weapon mount. The unnamed model has a new built-in bomb bay on the belly, which is obviously more perfect in stealth design. However, it will adversely affect the flight of the aircraft due to the occupation of the internal oil space.
The JF-20's body shape has been completely redesigned, not only the nose radome is sharper, the cockpit cover is more integrated into the front fuselage, the transition between the lower surface of the fuselage and the wing is smoother, and JF-17 is also eliminated. The pointed arch is large. Like the unrecognized model, the JF-20 has a large bomb bay on the belly. This machine is obviously the best high-end solution in stealth performance of the three schemes. Of course, this means that the development cost is the highest.

The reason why the Pakistan Air Force did not focus on the spot-based FC-31, and finally chose to fly to develop a single-engine stealth fighter based on JF-17. The main reason is the high procurement and maintenance cost of the dual-engine fighter. Take air power in a certain area as an example. In 2009, the cost per hour of F-16A/B flight was $4,900, and the cost of flying F-CK-1A/B fighters per hour was as high as $7,700. It can be seen. The Pakistani Air Force with limited military spending has a long history of operating single-engine fighters, and its active main fighters Mirage III/5, 歼-7, JF-17, and F-16 are all single-engine, so they continue to be used in the AZM project. The single shot design is also understandable.
The invisible "Zhenlong" will become the most anxious opponent of the Indian Air Force. In stark contrast to Pakistan's orderly promotion of the fifth-generation aircraft development, the FGFA fifth-generation aircraft project jointly carried out by India and Russia has now fallen into Waterloo, and the country is currently under The development of a generation of fighters still has no clue, and it is caught in the direct purchase of F-35 or the continued difficulty of self-developing AMCA. I am afraid that after India finally understands, the ACM prototype has already made its first successful flight.
http://k.sina.com.cn/article_631736...er_mil&loc=2&r=9&doct=0&rfunc=20&tj=none&tr=9*


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## Deino

Oh please .... do you really need to post a simple report - even more spiced with fan-made models - in font-size 7???

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## Khanivore

From 3 years ago...






I wonder how it's progressing today.


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## ozranger

Many truly authentic and public sources showed that PLANAF's preference on a stealth fighter jet is still J-20, including a recent interview with a PLANAF pilot. So if PLANAF is not currently investing on FC-31 or the so called J-35, PAF would have to invest on it all on their own if they really want to get it. Financially it is not quite feasible.

Most realistic solution will be a stealth JF-17 which carries 2 x PL-15 and 2 x PL-10 in internal weapon bays with a V-tail aft body. I suggest it is realistic because such stealth JF-17 would be dedicated to air-to-air missions hunting key enemy airborne assets only.


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## Legio XI The Ironclads

ozranger said:


> Many truly authentic and public sources showed that PLANAF's preference on a stealth fighter jet is still J-20, including a recent interview with a PLANAF pilot. So if PLANAF is not currently investing on FC-31 or the so called J-35, PAF would have to invest on it all on their own if they really want to get it. Financially it is not quite feasible.
> 
> Most realistic solution will be a stealth JF-17 which carries 2 x PL-15 and 2 x PL-10 in internal weapon bays with a V-tail aft body. I suggest it is realistic because such stealth JF-17 would be dedicated to air-to-air missions hunting key enemy airborne assets only.



PLAAF might have no requirement for an additional stealth fighter, But Navy most certainly do. J20 is too large to operate from current and up coming carriers and J15 have had mixed performance in PLAN. My gut feeling is J31or a modified variant will find a home in PLAN.

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## MIRauf

Rumor is that CAC is working on a new design to compete for Navy's J-15 replacement / to augment it. IMHO PAF / PAC can't afford to go alone on J-31/J-35 unless its the base for the AZM.

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## aziqbal

J31 is the obvious choice 

lets be honest which other country would sell a 5th generation fighter to Pakistan 

even more could Pakistan even afford it 

A Ultra high tech JF31 for Pakistan would ensure PAF meets the highest standards of 5th generation aircraft 

putting it for the first time in a league of nations right at the top

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## Black_Wind

J-31 , F-35 and Y-37
Could be any of these 3


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## Trailer23

aziqbal said:


> lets be honest which other country would sell a 5th generation fighter to Pakistan


Could be an option..., but probably goes with price tag.
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) - TF-X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TF-X


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## MastanKhan

aziqbal said:


> J31 is the obvious choice
> 
> lets be honest which other country would sell a 5th generation fighter to Pakistan
> 
> even more could Pakistan even afford it
> 
> A Ultra high tech JF31 for Pakistan would ensure PAF meets the highest standards of 5th generation aircraft
> 
> putting it for the first time in a league of nations right at the top



Hi,

Only China---.

Turkish aircraft is on paper---.


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## Trailer23

Source:*



*

*Chinese new engine developed successfully! What models will be equipped in the future? CCTV reveals important information.*

18-04-2019

Recently, several online photos show that China has achieved success in the development of new aero engines. In the 22nd "Sichuan Youth May Fourth Medal" to be commended, the picture of the development team of China Aerospace Turbofan Engine was announced. In addition to the team's concern, the engine behind it is more interesting. The engine was covered with a thick mosaic, and although it was coded, the outline could still be distinguished. From the outline point of view, the engine nozzle is not large, but it is suspected to be jagged. If it is jagged, it may be a vector aero engine or a stealth engine specially designed for stealth fighters.




In terms of size, the film is speculated as a medium-thrust aero engine, not a large-thrust engine. Some analysts believe that this is a turbofan-15 large thrust aero engine, but more it is considered a medium-thrust turbofan-19 aero engine. Because it is a turbofan-15, its size will be larger, for which more analysis is considered to be a turbofan-19 aero engine. The engine had previously been rumored that it entered the two-machine special project in 2016 and became a national key model, which means that the Russian development of the engine has been successful. In fact, the turbofan-19 is a medium-thrust engine. It is not the same as the turbofan-10 series and the turbofan-15. It is just the same level as the turbofan-13 series. The thrust is less than 10 tons. It is suitable for light fighters or medium-duty doubles. Use with fighters, such as the Dragon Fighter, the medium-sized dual-engine FC-31 "The Eagle Stealth Fighter" or some trainers.




What models will be equipped in the future?

What kind of aircraft will be equipped in the future? If it is a turbofan-medium thrust engine, it will gradually replace the turbofan-13 series engine in the future. Its positioning is similar to that of the Russian Air Force's RD-93 aircraft engine and the US Army F-414 aircraft. The engine, one equipped with the MiG-29, and one equipped with the F/A-18 "Super Hornet". The RD-93 aero engine is now being mass-produced on the FC-1/JF-17 "Dragon Fighter" and becomes the main power unit. Although China's turbofan-13 engine has been successfully developed for many years, it is equipped with very few aircraft. Although the parameters are more advantageous than the RD-93, there is actually a big gap.




At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2014, the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighters appeared at the Zhuhai Air Show, which left a deep impression on the audience. At the same time, the engine smoky during the flight show disappointed the audience. Because the engine of the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighter was suspected to be a turbofan-13 model, the lack of power caused the occurrence of black smoke problems. If the turbofan-19 was successfully developed, then the future FC-31 "鹘鹰" stealth The fighter can solve the power problem. Judging from the video released by CCTV, the video has a large number of images of the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighter, and it is likely to become its core power in the future.





Black smoked FC-31 at Zhuhai Air Show​
Judging from the current data, the maximum take-off weight of the FC-31 "Eagle" stealth fighter is below 28 tons, which is only equivalent to the US F-35 "Lightning Joint Attack Aircraft", but it is more than the Russian MiG-29 "Pivot Point". "The fighter plane is much higher than the US Army F-18 nickname "Hornet". Therefore, once the turbofan-19 is successfully developed, the prospect of the future FC-31 "Xiaoying" stealth fighter will be more clear, and it is impossible to rule out the possibility of getting on the ship. From its size and take-off weight, it is entirely possible to become China. The next generation of aircraft carrier carrier aircraft, specifically how we are not good, let us look forward to this!




​Link: http://www.sohu.com/a/308815365_99913293


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## MastanKhan

Falcon26 said:


> Hopefully it doesn’t turn into HAL LCA because Pakistan has neither the technological, industrial or the financial means to undertake such a massive project



Hi,

You are correct---. Pakistan must have the JV---because any failure would be pakistan's alone---.

I believe that it would be based ON ARROGANCE to have an OWN PROGRAM---.

It does not make sense technically to do that---.

If the europeans had JV with the US for their 5th gen---then Paf stands nowhere on its own---.

We already had two massive setbacks for the JF17 program that had delayed the aircraft by 5-7 years---the engine issue and the French EW package.

If Paf would want a single engine 5th gen---they should modify the J31 to a single engine aircraft---. Chinese engine for the J20 is coming of age---. That should do nicely for a single engine---.

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> If Paf would want a single engine 5th gen---they should modify the J31 to a single engine aircraft---. Chinese engine for the J20 is coming of age---. That should do nicely for a single engine---.


...just the possibility of that even possible could push the project 3-5 Years at the very least. If memory serves, it has never been attempted by anyone in the past and the chances seem slim-to-none.

The only way a FC-31/J-31 with the 01 Engine (a la F-35) even be possible would be to start from scratch.


----------



## Beast

Trailer23 said:


> Source:*
> View attachment 554220
> *
> 
> *Chinese new engine developed successfully! What models will be equipped in the future? CCTV reveals important information.*
> 
> 18-04-2019
> 
> Recently, several online photos show that China has achieved success in the development of new aero engines. In the 22nd "Sichuan Youth May Fourth Medal" to be commended, the picture of the development team of China Aerospace Turbofan Engine was announced. In addition to the team's concern, the engine behind it is more interesting. The engine was covered with a thick mosaic, and although it was coded, the outline could still be distinguished. From the outline point of view, the engine nozzle is not large, but it is suspected to be jagged. If it is jagged, it may be a vector aero engine or a stealth engine specially designed for stealth fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of size, the film is speculated as a medium-thrust aero engine, not a large-thrust engine. Some analysts believe that this is a turbofan-15 large thrust aero engine, but more it is considered a medium-thrust turbofan-19 aero engine. Because it is a turbofan-15, its size will be larger, for which more analysis is considered to be a turbofan-19 aero engine. The engine had previously been rumored that it entered the two-machine special project in 2016 and became a national key model, which means that the Russian development of the engine has been successful. In fact, the turbofan-19 is a medium-thrust engine. It is not the same as the turbofan-10 series and the turbofan-15. It is just the same level as the turbofan-13 series. The thrust is less than 10 tons. It is suitable for light fighters or medium-duty doubles. Use with fighters, such as the Dragon Fighter, the medium-sized dual-engine FC-31 "The Eagle Stealth Fighter" or some trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What models will be equipped in the future?
> 
> What kind of aircraft will be equipped in the future? If it is a turbofan-medium thrust engine, it will gradually replace the turbofan-13 series engine in the future. Its positioning is similar to that of the Russian Air Force's RD-93 aircraft engine and the US Army F-414 aircraft. The engine, one equipped with the MiG-29, and one equipped with the F/A-18 "Super Hornet". The RD-93 aero engine is now being mass-produced on the FC-1/JF-17 "Dragon Fighter" and becomes the main power unit. Although China's turbofan-13 engine has been successfully developed for many years, it is equipped with very few aircraft. Although the parameters are more advantageous than the RD-93, there is actually a big gap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2014, the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighters appeared at the Zhuhai Air Show, which left a deep impression on the audience. At the same time, the engine smoky during the flight show disappointed the audience. Because the engine of the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighter was suspected to be a turbofan-13 model, the lack of power caused the occurrence of black smoke problems. If the turbofan-19 was successfully developed, then the future FC-31 "鹘鹰" stealth The fighter can solve the power problem. Judging from the video released by CCTV, the video has a large number of images of the FC-31 "Suiying" stealth fighter, and it is likely to become its core power in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black smoked FC-31 at Zhuhai Air Show​
> Judging from the current data, the maximum take-off weight of the FC-31 "Eagle" stealth fighter is below 28 tons, which is only equivalent to the US F-35 "Lightning Joint Attack Aircraft", but it is more than the Russian MiG-29 "Pivot Point". "The fighter plane is much higher than the US Army F-18 nickname "Hornet". Therefore, once the turbofan-19 is successfully developed, the prospect of the future FC-31 "Xiaoying" stealth fighter will be more clear, and it is impossible to rule out the possibility of getting on the ship. From its size and take-off weight, it is entirely possible to become China. The next generation of aircraft carrier carrier aircraft, specifically how we are not good, let us look forward to this!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Link: http://www.sohu.com/a/308815365_99913293


The black smoke thing only occurs frequently on Russian imported rd-33 engine which happens to be install on the first prototype of FC-31. And thick black smoke don't always occur as only when pump increase fuel. We all can see JF-17 during most of the flight do not produce thick smoke and small amount of trail light smoke.

According to another source. WS-13 is the first modern turbofan of China approved for mass production. It is quite a successful engine project for China aviation. It also the catalyst for quick development of more advance WS-19 turbofan.


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## ARMalik

Beast said:


> The black smoke thing only occurs frequently on Russian imported rd-33 engine which happens to be install on the first prototype of FC-31. And thick black smoke don't always occur as only when pump increase fuel. We all can see JF-17 during most of the flight do not produce thick smoke and small amount of trail light smoke.
> 
> According to another source. WS-13 is the first modern turbofan of China approved for mass production. It is quite a successful engine project for China aviation. It also the catalyst for quick development of more advance WS-19 turbofan.



The concern is that such news about the success of WS-13 have been floating around for years, and hence a lot of people specially in the West do not take such news seriously. The only way for China to prove that it has been successful in developing the engine is if a large number of its new fighter jets are installed with the new engine. *When do you expect the new engines to be installed on mutiple jets? *


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## Beast

ARMalik said:


> The concern is that such news about the success of WS-13 have been floating around for years, and hence a lot of people specially in the West do not take such news seriously. The only way for China to prove that it has been successful in developing the engine is if a large number of its new fighter jets are installed with the new engine. *When do you expect the new engines to be installed on mutiple jets? *


JF-17.


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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> ...just the possibility of that even possible could push the project 3-5 Years at the very least. If memory serves, it has never been attempted by anyone in the past and the chances seem slim-to-none.
> 
> The only way a FC-31/J-31 with the 01 Engine (a la F-35) even be possible would be to start from scratch.



Hi,

Technically---no---. The engine is just a power plant lifting you off the ground and pushing you forward---.

So---as long it has enough thrust to do what is needed---it will do the job---. The wings don't care if it is a single engine or a dual engine---and neither does the fuslage---even though it would be a single tube---the intakes would be on the sides---as they already are---the nose is what a nose is---.

So---pretty much most of the work has been done---

One must remember that the J31 is a copy of the F35 and the F35 is a single engine machine---.



ARMalik said:


> The concern is that such news about the success of WS-13 have been floating around for years, and hence a lot of people specially in the West do not take such news seriously. The only way for China to prove that it has been successful in developing the engine is if a large number of its new fighter jets are installed with the new engine. *When do you expect the new engines to be installed on mutiple jets? *



Hi,

There would be a major fight developing between two manufacturing companies---.

Both would be fighting tooth and nail for the Paf contract for future engine---the chinese and the russians---. And both would be pitching their wares to the perspective buyers of the aircraft---.

RD93 has been a God given gift to the JF17 & Paf---. How difficult would it be for the Paf to step away from this power plant---@messiach---?

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## ARMalik

Beast said:


> JF-17.



I know you mentioned this on another thread that JF-17s were using WS-13 engines. But why is there such a secrecy on this - why can't China or Pakistan confirm this news? Obviously it would be great news for China's aeronautical industry.


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## Beast

ARMalik said:


> I know you mentioned this on another thread that JF-17s were using WS-13 engines. But why is there such a secrecy on this - why can't China or Pakistan confirm this news? Obviously it would be great news for China's aeronautical industry.


Of cos, it cannot be official. It unlicensed making of the engine. But new WS-19 make be make announcement soon as it shared no similarity with RD-33 engine.

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Technically---no---. The engine is just a power plant lifting you off the ground and pushing you forward---.
> 
> So---as long it has enough thrust to do what is needed---it will do the job---. The wings don't care if it is a single engine or a dual engine---and neither does the fuslage---even though it would be a single tube---the intakes would be on the sides---as they already are---the nose is what a nose is---.
> 
> So---pretty much most of the work has been done---
> 
> One must remember that the J31 is a copy of the F35 and the F35 is a single engine machine---.


But the rear would require a lot of engineering marvel to achieve that. They'd have to re-do the whole thing. From housing 02 Engines, they'd have to do one.

Now this is a quick Photoshop of what i'm talking about.

1. The current FC-31 with 02 Engines.
2. With reduction in opacity (transparency), you can compare between 02 engines & 01.
3. Well - you get the picture.

I'd hate to be the Project Manager to get the call, "Can you do with One?"


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## monitor

China will invest 300 billion dollar in next 2 decades to develop military and civilian engine tells how complex engine development is . Until now Chinese local engine unable to supercruise without afterburner like their American counterpart.

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## Beast

monitor said:


> China will invest 300 billion dollar in next 2 decades to develop military and civilian engine tells how complex engine development is . Until now Chinese local engine unable to supercruise without afterburner like their American counterpart.


Super cruise is aerodyanmic , high thrust to weight ratio. Nothing to with engine alone. Current high thrust WS-19 and WS-15 with the correct aircraft can super cruise. Even J-20 with WS-10E can have limited super cruise of 1.2M speed.

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## Deino

Do we really have to discuss such stupid ideas to convert the FC-31 into a single engine type and even to think about if it would be doable?

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## messiach

It would be a diplomatik disaster for PAF/Pk to step-away.
The tug of war is already in motion. No escape. Stategic trade-off underway in negotiations.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There would be a major fight developing between two manufacturing companies---.
> 
> Both would be fighting tooth and nail for the Paf contract for future engine---the chinese and the russians---. And both would be pitching their wares to the perspective buyers of the aircraft---.
> 
> RD93 has been a God given gift to the JF17 & Paf---. How difficult would it be for the Paf to step away from this power plant---@messiach---?

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Do we really have to discuss such stupid ideas to convert the FC-31 into a single engine type and even to think about if it would be doable?



Hi,

What do you mean " stupid "---? It is not a conversion---. The fuselage can be made for a single engine.

A J31 is an F35 but with two engines---was it a conversion---? Did you call the chinese stupid at that time for " converting "---.

The frontal aspect---the side aspect---the tails design would stay in the same parameters of design---.

A conversion means that taking an existing body and cutting and chopping it to fit a new design---.

As there are no SPARE J31's sitting around to be chopped---where would the term conversion come from---?

I thought you were smarter than that---but i guess not.



Trailer23 said:


> But the rear would require a lot of engineering marvel to achieve that. They'd have to re-do the whole thing. From housing 02 Engines, they'd have to do one.
> 
> Now this is a quick Photoshop of what i'm talking about.
> 
> 1. The current FC-31 with 02 Engines.
> 2. With reduction in opacity (transparency), you can compare between 02 engines & 01.
> 3. Well - you get the picture.
> 
> I'd hate to be the Project Manager to get the call, "Can you do with One?"
> 
> View attachment 554252



Hi,

You getting carried away in sarcasm---. There are no J31's sitting around to be cut and chopped from a dual engine to a single engine---.

I think you are smarter than what you are trying to show---.



messiach said:


> It would be a diplomatik disaster for PAF/Pk to step-away.
> The tug of war is already in motion. No escape. Stategic trade-off underway in negotiations.



Hi,

It is next to impossible to walk away from the RD93---.


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## Sine Nomine

messiach said:


> It would be a diplomatik disaster for PAF/Pk to step-away.
> The tug of war is already in motion. No escape. Stategic trade-off underway in negotiations.


Tilt on which side?


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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> What do you mean " stupid "---? It is not a conversion---. The fuselage can be made for a single engine.
> A J31 is an F35 but with two engines---was it a conversion---? Did you call the chinese stupid at that time for " converting "---.
> The frontal aspect---the side aspect---the tails design would stay in the same parameters of design---.
> A conversion means that taking an existing body and cutting and chopping it to fit a new design---.
> As there are no SPARE J31's sitting around to be chopped---where would the term conversion come from---?
> I thought you were smarter than that---but i guess not..




Dear MastanKhan,

with all due respect, your post surprises me and even if we did not always share the same opinion, I always respect yours. Here however - and I hope this ruins not everything - it is either a fundamental misunderstanding or indeed I cannot say differently, a plain stupid idea.

1. even if similar in overall appearance, in configuration or layout, to call the FC-31 a twin-engine F-35 is stupid. I'm always annoyed - in fact pissed-off - by the same stupid US accusations, but these constant copy & paste theories are s much stupid that I really cannot hold my horses. Therefore I'm flattered that You follow this ... or do you also think the A320 is a copied B737 and even more the C919 a "conversion of an Airbus?

2. No, the fuselage of the FC-31 cannot be rebuilt to fit only one engine, that's exactly as stupid as these similar stupid claims, "just take two RD-93, mate them and you have a twin-engine JF-17". 
To say, the overall configuration, lay-out and concept could be taken, and redesigned around a decent engine like the WS-15, that would be possible, but result de facto in a new design. 
Do you really think aeronautical design, engineering and manufacturing is so easy, just like plug & play on a Samsung mobile? Therefore again sorry to say so, but if You really believe this, then I'm indeed arrogant ...

3. The epitome of stupidity is to think one WS-19 - as done in his artwork No. 3 - could substitute two RD-93/WS-13.  Do you guys at least sometimes try to think about such proposals? How could a ~100kN engine with the size of the RD-93 substitute 2x about 80 kN??  To enable this at least a similar thrust performance would be necessary and even with a WS-15 it would be difficult since we are again at point 2 of my explanation.

So again I hope it is more a misunderstanding based on different definition ... otherwise I deeply regret the situation, but I will hold my opinion.

Best regards,
Deino

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## Army research

Deino said:


> Dear MastanKhan,
> 
> with all due respect, your post surprises me and even if we did not always share the same opinion, I always respect yours. Here however - and I hope this ruins not everything - it is either a fundamental misunderstanding or indeed I cannot say differently, a plain stupid idea.
> 
> 1. even if similar in overall appearance, in configuration or layout, to call the FC-31 a twin-engine F-35 is stupid. I'm always annoyed - in fact pissed-off - by the same stupid US accusations, but these constant copy & paste theories are s much stupid that I really cannot hold my horses. Therefore I'm flattered that You follow this ... or do you also think the A320 is a copied B737 and even more the C919 a "conversion of an Airbus?
> 
> 2. No, the fuselage of the FC-31 cannot be rebuilt to fit only one engine, that's exactly as stupid as these similar stupid claims, "just take two RD-93, mate them and you have a twin-engine JF-17".
> To say, the overall configuration, lay-out and concept could be taken, and redesigned around a decent engine like the WS-15, that would be possible, but result de facto in a new design.
> Do you really think aeronautical design, engineering and manufacturing is so easy, just like plug & play on a Samsung mobile? Therefore again sorry to say so, but if You really believe this, then I'm indeed arrogant ...
> 
> 3. The epitome of stupidity is to think one WS-19 - as done in his artwork No. 3 - could substitute two RD-93/WS-13.  Do you guys at least sometimes try to think about such proposals? How could a ~100kN engine with the size of the RD-93 substitute 2x about 80 kN??  To enable this at least a similar thrust performance would be necessary and even with a WS-15 it would be difficult since we are again at point 2 of my explanation.
> 
> So again I hope it is more a misunderstanding based on different definition ... otherwise I deeply regret the situation, but I will hold my opinion.
> 
> Best regards,
> Deino


People with limited knowledge in aircraft design ( I too am among them however have already offers from universities to study the same topic ) think aircraft are just plug and play ? And all the talk of the J31= Copied f35 is such utter rubbish , physically speaking it is, even if the said 'design ' is copied and stolen by Chinese hackers or so they say ( also rubbish as one is dual engine and the other single so all the fuel allocation etc I'm not gonna dive deeper) , then did they also copy every single piece of code ? If it's copied won't they also need to have copied the engine ? The radar ? The eots? The IBMS ? FADEC ? HMD? TDL? Doesn't this mean China already has supposedly already copied the entirety of the cream of nato technology ? Wouldn't this just mean China is already way more advanced than the West so it won't even have needed to copy in the first place ? The paradox which they subtly refuse to answer,

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Dear MastanKhan,
> 
> with all due respect, your post surprises me and even if we did not always share the same opinion, I always respect yours. Here however - and I hope this ruins not everything - it is either a fundamental misunderstanding or indeed I cannot say differently, a plain stupid idea.
> 
> 1. even if similar in overall appearance, in configuration or layout, to call the FC-31 a twin-engine F-35 is stupid. I'm always annoyed - in fact pissed-off - by the same stupid US accusations, but these constant copy & paste theories are s much stupid that I really cannot hold my horses. Therefore I'm flattered that You follow this ... or do you also think the A320 is a copied B737 and even more the C919 a "conversion of an Airbus?
> 
> 2. No, the fuselage of the FC-31 cannot be rebuilt to fit only one engine, that's exactly as stupid as these similar stupid claims, "just take two RD-93, mate them and you have a twin-engine JF-17".
> To say, the overall configuration, lay-out and concept could be taken, and redesigned around a decent engine like the WS-15, that would be possible, but result de facto in a new design.
> Do you really think aeronautical design, engineering and manufacturing is so easy, just like plug & play on a Samsung mobile? Therefore again sorry to say so, but if You really believe this, then I'm indeed arrogant ...
> 
> 3. The epitome of stupidity is to think one WS-19 - as done in his artwork No. 3 - could substitute two RD-93/WS-13.  Do you guys at least sometimes try to think about such proposals? How could a ~100kN engine with the size of the RD-93 substitute 2x about 80 kN??  To enable this at least a similar thrust performance would be necessary and even with a WS-15 it would be difficult since we are again at point 2 of my explanation.
> 
> So again I hope it is more a misunderstanding based on different definition ... otherwise I deeply regret the situation, but I will hold my opinion.
> 
> Best regards,
> Deino



Hi,

You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.

A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.

A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.

All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.

Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.

The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.

Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.

It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.

At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.



Army research said:


> People with limited knowledge in aircraft design ( I too am among them however have already offers from universities to study the same topic ) think aircraft are just plug and play ? And all the talk of the J31= Copied f35 is such utter rubbish , physically speaking it is, even if the said 'design ' is copied and stolen by Chinese hackers or so they say ( also rubbish as one is dual engine and the other single so all the fuel allocation etc I'm not gonna dive deeper) , then did they also copy every single piece of code ? If it's copied won't they also need to have copied the engine ? The radar ? The eots? The IBMS ? FADEC ? HMD? TDL? Doesn't this mean China already has supposedly already copied the entirety of the cream of nato technology ? Wouldn't this just mean China is already way more advanced than the West so it won't even have needed to copy in the first place ? The paradox which they subtly refuse to answer,



Hi,

They may have copied it but building it is a different thing---.

So stop this british habiot of chewing your words---looking sarcastic and acting arrogant---.

The US intel agy's the senate the congress and every magazine in the world calle dthe J31 a copy of the F35---.

Who and what are you to challenge that---do you have any substance---talking big---.

Nothing is plug and play per say---you assume it is---because when you hear a conversation---you respond to it at your level of thinking and understanding---.

When i say it---it is taking into consideration my 30 plus years of professional experience by default in expecting the READER WILL HAVE COMMON SENSE AND BRAINS to understand that any venture a nation is taking has considered the ups and downs and the difficulties associated with it---.

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## Army research

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.
> 
> A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.
> 
> A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.
> 
> All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.
> 
> Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.
> 
> The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.
> 
> Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.
> 
> It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.
> 
> At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> They may have copied it but building it is a different thing---.
> 
> So stop this british habiot of chewing your words---looking sarcastic and acting arrogant---.
> 
> The US intel agy's the senate the congress and every magazine in the world calle dthe J31 a copy of the F35---.
> 
> Who and what are you to challenge that---do you have any substance---talking big---.
> 
> Nothing is plug and play per say---you assume it is---because when you hear a conversation---you respond to it at your level of thinking and understanding---.
> 
> When i say it---it is taking into consideration my 30 plus years of professional experience by default in expecting the READER WILL HAVE COMMON SENSE AND BRAINS to understand that any venture a nation is taking has considered the ups and downs and the difficulties associated with it---.


Sir I may be in Britain right now , but respectuflly I have very limited British habits and have been raised up on the streets of Rawalpindi, 
I wasn't looking to be sarcastic rather I presented questions and a paradox that you have yet not answered except in vague terms , 
Also respectfully sir when you say western magazines , congress and us intelligence calls it a copy , well sir they also call pakistan a hub for terrorists and many think of us as nothing but flat herders , 
Also my habit which you have negatively portrayed as arrogance and chewing words up, it's come not from Britain rather my English teacher in saint Mary's, lalazar Rawalpindi teached me this , a fine teacher Allah forgive her soul 
As for my substance for supposedly talking big sir , I firstly always mention as I have above in the brackets, that I am no source however I have a insurmountable interest in the aviation industry ranging from single person carrying quadcopters to the craft that will launch sattelites into low orbit , and I have the most interest in defence aircraft especially the fifth gens ( minus the Su 57 ) , 
I've talked to many many people of varying roles in PAC and airforce sir , I speak based on these and my own experiences , 
Apologies if I may have offended you as you are a senior member of this forum one I've being reading posts of even before joining this forum 6 years ago when I was only 12 ,

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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Sir I may be in Britain right now , but respectuflly I have very limited British habits and have been raised up on the streets of Rawalpindi,
> I wasn't looking to be sarcastic rather I presented questions and a paradox that you have yet not answered except in vague terms ,
> Also respectfully sir when you say western magazines , congress and us intelligence calls it a copy , well sir they also call pakistan a hub for terrorists and many think of us as nothing but flat herders ,
> Also my habit which you have negatively portrayed as arrogance and chewing words up, it's come not from Britain rather my English teacher in saint Mary's, lalazar Rawalpindi teached me this , a fine teacher Allah forgive her soul
> As for my substance for supposedly talking big sir , I firstly always mention as I have above in the brackets, that I am no source however I have a insurmountable interest in the aviation industry ranging from single person carrying quadcopters to the craft that will launch sattelites into low orbit , and I have the most interest in defence aircraft especially the fifth gens ( minus the Su 57 ) ,
> I've talked to many many people of varying roles in PAC and airforce sir , I speak based on these and my own experiences ,
> Apologies if I may have offended you as you are a senior member of this forum one I've being reading posts of even before joining this forum 6 years ago when I was only 12 ,



Hi,

Thanks for your post---. I am one of the very very few members who have talked about the engineering difficulties of copying and producing a viable machine for the last 15 years over here---.

JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---.

The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here---.

Just let me put it this way---without the input of Paf---the J10 would not be the aircraft that it is---.

The next item that came about was the J31 and the J20---. So---the stealth design is out of the box---. From an engineering point of view---it is not an outrageous project like a fighter aircraft engine---.

So---that hill has been crossed as well---. Be it a twin engine or a single engine aircraft---it is not that big of a deal as it was 10 years ago---. If it was a big deal---Paf would not have talked about doing project AZM---.

The big deal is still the power plant---the big deal is still the EW package---the big deal is the modern helmet to use an off bore-sight missile---.

So---if the Paf decides to build a 5th gen aircraft---and not buy the J31---then it would be an aircraft slightly larger than the JF17--ask why---the answer would be---because they feel comfortable with that size---JF17---F16---Mirage 3/5---.

If they had wanted a bigger aircraft---they would have picked up the JH7A for strike roles---and the J31 for stealth roles---.

But then with Paf---you never know till they show---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.
> 
> A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.
> 
> A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.
> 
> All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.
> 
> Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.
> 
> The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.
> 
> Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.
> 
> It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.
> 
> At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.



Yes, all aircraft are copies ... the Airbus of the Wright Flyer and the Concorde of B-29, nothing more to say. 

To admit, in a short sentence, I'm out and I really feel sorry, that you decided not to pick up the explanation of different definitions of what is a copy to explain our dispute, while instead still think "Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---."

So if You think indeed, the AZM will look like a single engined FC-31, if you even think it could be done with one WS-19 based on the same airframe by Pakistan and that all in a few years I wish You luck ... but then I cannot help.

And if you think I'm arrogant even after this explanation, then I simply have to live on with this, but it will not change my mind and each and everyone with aeronautical understanding would agree. Designing an aircraft is not plug & play and the reason why all US magazines and official sources call it a copy is, since its fits well into their political agenda to bash against Chinese or anything from China. But anyway ...

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## serenity

Sorry but FC-31 will never be made into single engine fighter. What engine you will use? WS-15 is only one powerful enough for such a frame. If you want a smaller frame to fit WS-19 you need to redesign entire FC-31. Entire thing down to the fasteners. More time then to retest everything and some time to tool factory for production. Second and third step are not even done yet with FC-31 prototypes. So single engine FC-31 can be made without waste in those departments but redesign work will take time and no way Pakistan alone can provide all the funding. China doesn't want a single engine FC-31. If SAC thinks PAF or PLAAF wanted single engine, they would start with that prototype. Chinese air manufacturers still don't have 100% trust in Chinese engine manufacturers yet. Especially the powerful engines with more than F110 level thrust. J-10 still use Russian engines because WS-10 less reliable than even Russian engine.

This project if it becomes PAF fighter or PLAAF PLAN fighter in future will 100% be double engine and most likely using WS-19. No resizing. This isn't making a suit or adjusting your watch. Entire balance and stress profile changes.

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## TheTallGuy

My pick is Project AZM is - Modified J31V2 or V3 anything other is just not doable and does not make sense. we cant afford an aircraft 5th Gen built from scratch. J31 Technology demonstrator provide bases to work on future. 

This is the most cost saving way possible!

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## serenity

TheTallGuy said:


> My pick is Project AZM is - Modified J31V2 or V3 anything other is just not doable and does not make sense. we cant afford an aircraft 5th Gen built from scratch. J31 Technology demonstrator provide bases to work on future.
> 
> This is the most cost saving way possible!



Most important quality about such a fighter is stealth. Seems like after J-20 work, maybe FC-31 can be made to same level of stealth. No need to change too much about other small details. After the shaping and manufacturing details, just equip with latest radar and electronics that can be afforded and can take on IAF and be upgraded in future. Single engine is too dangerous with new high performance engine. Unproven reliability and probably takes years to refine until point where the engineers understand early bugs.

Two WS-19 is better than one WS-15. More expensive but already the frame design is basically done.

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## TheTallGuy

@MastanKhan

We had experience of operating F-16s at the time of JF17 this is how we played a crucial role..now its opposite..we have no exposure to 5th Gen Aircraft and china has one design operational and one technological demonstrator..now we should listen to them as well.

Honestly, J31 Design is quite good and since China has the engines WS19 about to be ready or may be already ready ..there commitment of FOC by 2023 look reasonable.

Project AZM is JV between Pakistan-China (J31V2 or V3) no redesign no cut sizing ...it is developed with the Pakistani needs in mind...

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.


So, TF-X, KF-X, and F-3 should be called F-22?

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## Stealth

1. Pakistan does not have any capacity, capability or knowledge to develop 5 Gen fighter to be very frank. Project AZM is nothing but a piece of paper sorry to say (Not undermining ourself but logically speaking we are nowhere in R&D of developing state-of-the-art weapon systems with high-performance applications). Even Turkey having long expertise in F16 still their 5Gen project is only on paper.

2. Anything coming from China will be the last bet for PAF in accordance to 5 Gen (most probably J31).

3. At first glance, J31 completely failed to attract audience because of its engines performance and also lack of interest by the Chinese AF in the aircraft afterwards.

4. China never make anything for Pakistan. They had zero interest in developing JF17 thunder (rather a testing platform or R&D purpose). Later when Pakistan officially jumps into the FC program (long story short our stupid AF think tanks wasted 1 and half decade to realized that the Americans are ******— looking for something cheaper to maintain and need something for a longer-run with no fear of sanctions, FC program was the last option at that time. When Pakistanis have shown interest into the FC program, then Chinese gotta hint okay we will help you to develop this to serve your needs else Chinese had zero interest.

5. J31 is again only designed and developed for the Chinese Air Force. If Pakistan need this, we should again become a part but we can’t modify from 2 X to 1 engine. The aircraft completely designed according to the core requirement of Chinese Airforce not for us or any third party technically.

6. Seems like platform design somehow close to F35 JSF, but the aircraft with two engines clearly shows they have something in their mind which is “carrier based naval platform” where you need power-pack machine for take-off and landing.

7. Again because of lack of interest by the PLAA, platform suffers a-lot. They want it but they’re not hurry... if Pakistan need it, we have to become a part of this project officially then might be Chinese will push this project faster...

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## Muhammad Omar

It's amazing that anyone can use photoshop and make a twin engine jet with single engine 

Pure aeronautics engineering

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## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> So, TF-X, KF-X, and F-3 should be called F-22?



Hi,

You may call them whatever you want them to---but their design was initiated by the F22 / F35---.

If Paf had no fear of repercussions from the US---the JF17 would have looked exactly like the F16---.

None of those countries behind those aircraft type references that you gave had the capability of knowing about stealth design---.

They had no experience of stealth---they did not know from where to start and where to finish---.

Stealth design is not a myth anymore---.

What is myth is what is hidden in that skin---what is behind that skin---what is being carried inside of that skin---that is where the real secrets lie---and to copy those items is like conquering the K-2 in a blizzard---.

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## mdmm

MastanKhan wrote that,
""JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---....
The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here--
*****************************************************************************
I am overseas Pakistan without deep info about PAF.Kindly explain above sentences.Did you mean Pakistan is getting or making J 10 with China ??


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## messiach

There is no such scientific term as stealth. What we have is a relative envelop of undetectibility. This is little dependant on aerdynamics.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You may call them whatever you want them to---but their design was initiated by the F22 / F35---.
> 
> If Paf had no fear of repercussions from the US---the JF17 would have looked exactly like the F16---.
> 
> None of those countries behind those aircraft type references that you gave had the capability of knowing about stealth design---.
> 
> They had no experience of stealth---they did not know from where to start and where to finish---.
> 
> Stealth design is not a myth anymore---.
> 
> What is myth is what is hidden in that skin---what is behind that skin---what is being carried inside of that skin---that is where the real secrets lie---and to copy those items is like conquering the K-2 in a blizzard---.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> There is no such scientific term as stealth. What we have is a relative envelop of undetectibility. This is little dependant on aerdynamics.



Hi,

Yes ma'am---that term is for us illiterate types to make us look smart---.



mdmm said:


> MastanKhan wrote that,
> ""JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---....
> The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here--
> *****************************************************************************
> I am overseas Pakistan without deep info about PAF.Kindly explain above sentences.Did you mean Pakistan is getting or making J 10 with China ??

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> What is myth is what is hidden in that skin---what is behind that skin---what is being carried inside of that skin---that is where the real secrets lie


Well currently that skin & what's behind it lies somewhere at the bottom of the Pacific - up for grabs.


messiach said:


> There is no such scientific term as stealth. What we have is a relative envelop of undetectibility. This is little dependant on aerdynamics.


...and its well documented in an old History Channel documentary on the *Lockheed F-117 (Nighthawk)*.

Timestamp - *6:50*

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## araz

Stealth said:


> 1. Pakistan does not have any capacity, capability or knowledge to develop 5 Gen fighter to be very frank. Project AZM is nothing but a piece of paper sorry to say (Not undermining ourself but logically speaking we are nowhere in R&D of developing state-of-the-art weapon systems with high-performance applications). Even Turkey having long expertise in F16 still their 5Gen project is only on paper.
> 
> 2. Anything coming from China will be the last bet for PAF in accordance to 5 Gen (most probably J31).
> 
> 3. At first glance, J31 completely failed to attract audience because of its engines performance and also lack of interest by the Chinese AF in the aircraft afterwards.
> 
> 4. China never make anything for Pakistan. They had zero interest in developing JF17 thunder (rather a testing platform or R&D purpose). Later when Pakistan officially jumps into the FC program (long story short our stupid AF think tanks wasted 1 and half decade to realized that the Americans are ******— looking for something cheaper to maintain and need something for a longer-run with no fear of sanctions, FC program was the last option at that time. When Pakistanis have shown interest into the FC program, then Chinese gotta hint okay we will help you to develop this to serve your needs else Chinese had zero interest.
> 
> 5. J31 is again only designed and developed for the Chinese Air Force. If Pakistan need this, we should again become a part but we can’t modify from 2 X to 1 engine. The aircraft completely designed according to the core requirement of Chinese Airforce not for us or any third party technically.
> 
> 6. Seems like platform design somehow close to F35 JSF, but the aircraft with two engines clearly shows they have something in their mind which is “carrier based naval platform” where you need power-pack machine for take-off and landing.
> 
> 7. Again because of lack of interest by the PLAA, platform suffers a-lot. They want it but they’re not hurry... if Pakistan need it, we have to become a part of this project officially then might be Chinese will push this project faster...


I want to add a few comments to your post. Before I start please understand that my post is written from the Paklands perspective. I do not want to degrade the efforts of the Chinese friends but will consider facts as reported in Pak news media.
When the JFT project was being designed it was always thought that that the cooperation was on the basis of 50:50 investment and a commitment on the part of PLAAF to buy 250 units. The Chinese then reneged on the latter promise, but PAF continued with its drive to get an economical and effective fighter. To their credit our Chinese friends endured the constantly changing demands and additions by PAF, something which their seniors have alluded to in various articles available in open press. I do not want to go into the nitty gritties of why China backed out but understand that they made a logical decision based on their interests.
PAF in my view felt a bit hard done by this experience. However our cooperation has continued to go from strength to strength which has been good for both the sides.
Regarding the J31 it is still a prototype which requires funds to develop it to production stage. These funds can be variable depending on the amount of work needed and can go into Billions if one is not careful. PAF just does not have these funds. We want a workable solution which is ready for production, rather than an unfinished project, which we can get production rights for and modfy to our needs. This is where, in my humble opinion the political and economic wrangling is coming from. The Chinese want to utilize the experience from the J20 to finish the J31 but even then it is going to require a fair bit of money and they would like to get a partner to finish the project without utilizing their own resources. Whether they can find someone else who can do that and Support Paklands as a conduit for its supply remains to be seen. However anyone investing in a risky project would want a tangible product at the end of their negotiations which is ready for production not a "work in progress".
I suspect this along with the availability of the engine to drive the platform remain major bugbears. PAF will continue to watch the project carefully knowing fully well it has no other hope as the Turkish offering is not going to happen till mid 30s where as the Chinese can come up with a solution in late 20s which will be more affordable for PAF.
A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> The Chinese want to utilize the experience from the J20 to finish the J31 but even then it is going to require a fair bit of money and they would like to get a partner to finish the project without utilizing their own resources. Whether they can find someone else who can do that and Support Paklands as a conduit for its supply remains to be seen. However anyone investing in a risky project would want a tangible product at the end of their negotiations which is ready for production not a "work in progress".
> I suspect this along with the availability of the engine to drive the platform remain major bugbears. PAF will continue to watch the project carefully knowing fully well it has no other hope as the Turkish offering is not going to happen till mid 30s where as the Chinese can come up with a solution in late 20s which will be more affordable for PAF.
> A


1. China mainly has two fighter manufacturers, SAC (J-11/15/16) and CAC (J-10/20), similar to USA's Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

2. FC-31 V1 and V2 are just the technology demonstrators of SAC to be free from Chinese Franker family fighters and compete with CAC in the future. And SAC is more interested in the orders from PLAAF and PLAN.

3. What China lacks is not fund, but time.

4. What PLAAF and PLAN need are not the same as what PAF needs. When FC-31 gets the orders from PLAAF or PLAN, it won't be another FC-1/JF-17 any more.

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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> 1. China mainly has two fighter manufacturers, SAC (J-11/15/16) and CAC (J-10/20), similar to USA's Boeing and Lockheed Martin.
> 
> 2. FC-31 V1 and V2 are just the technology demonstrators of SAC to be free from Chinese Franker family fighters and compete with CAC in the future. And SAC is more interested in the orders from PLAAF and PLAN.
> 
> 3. What China lacks is not fund, but time.
> 
> 4. What PLAAF and PLAN need are not the same as what PAF needs. When FC-31 gets the orders from PLAAF or PLAN, it won't be another FC-1/JF-17 any more.


You have responded to my post but please forgive me I have totally failed to see your point of view. If you could clarify whatcyou want to project then we can have a conversation. If it is a general remark then thank you for your contribution.
Regards
PS: Iam very aware of Chinese financial liquidity so understand that point. However from a purely business sense it is standard practice to ask for a partner to share research costs. The Chinese have so far not invested in F31 inspite of their financial liquidity.
A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> You have responded to my post but please forgive me I have totally failed to see your point of view. If you could clarify whatcyou want to project then we can have a conversation. If it is a general remark then thank you for your contribution.
> Regards
> PS: Iam very aware of Chinese financial liquidity so understand that point. However from a purely business sense it is standard practice to ask for a partner to share research costs. The Chinese have so far not invested in F31 inspite of their financial liquidity.
> A


Over 100 4.5/5th-generation fighters are builded for PLAAF and PLAN each year.
FC-31 is said to be J-35 and has got orders from PLAN.

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## Pakistani Fighter

LKJ86 said:


> Over 100 4.5/5th-generation fighters are builded for PLAAF and PLAN each year.
> FC-31 is said to be J-35 and has got orders from PLAN.


Then FC 31 is not J 20?


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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Then FC 31 is not J 20?


What?


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## mdmm

Brother LKJ86.
Thank you very much brother for details.
Refreshing historical brotherhood between China and Pakistan..Pakistan was the first country to recognize PRC as a free country,Pakistan was first to vote for China in UNO.Pakistan PIA airline was first to land in China .
Pakistan does not have any capacity, capability or knowledge to develop 5 Gen fighter to be very frank.
So China must help Pakistan in technology and finance to buy/manufacture 5 Gen fighters.??


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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> Over 100 4.5/5th-generation fighters are builded for PLAAF and PLAN each year.
> FC-31 is said to be J-35 and has got orders from PLAN.


Your figures and news need qualification. Firstly no one denies the Chinese prowess at building 4.5 gen jets. However to the best of my knowledge J20 if at all is in Low rate production. J31 has not had conformed orders from PLAAN. This is just a rumour ao far with nothing to prove beyond that. I am sure at some stage we will have some orders for J31 but to the best of my knowledge there are so far no confirmed orders for J31 which is why things have not progressed beyond 2 prototypes.
A

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## Kabotar

araz said:


> Your figures and news need qualification. Firstly no one denies the Chinese prowess at building 4.5 gen jets. However to the best of my knowledge J20 if at all is in Low rate production. J31 has not had conformed orders from PLAAN. This is just a rumour ao far with nothing to prove beyond that. I am sure at some stage we will have some orders for J31 but to the best of my knowledge there are so far no confirmed orders for J31 which is why things have not progressed beyond 2 prototypes.
> A


I believe the bottleneck is engine and maybe PLAAF is fine tuning their doctrine on how to employ then fully. Once the engines are sorted out we might see production numbers similar to J10s. As far as J31 is concerned I think PLAAF is not interested so they might be working naval variant hoping to get PLAN to pay for development. 

BTW when is PLAN hoping to induct flat top carriers? Cause that might give us a timeline.


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Your figures and news need qualification. Firstly no one denies the Chinese prowess at building 4.5 gen jets. However to the best of my knowledge J20 if at all is in Low rate production. J31 has not had conformed orders from PLAAN. This is just a rumour ao far with nothing to prove beyond that. I am sure at some stage we will have some orders for J31 but to the best of my knowledge there are so far no confirmed orders for J31 which is why things have not progressed beyond 2 prototypes.
> A


What I wanted to say is just that, what China lacks is not fund, but time.

Whether FC-31 gets orders from PLAN, it just depends on whether FC-31 can meet the needs of PLAN, or there is a better choice from CAC.

Besides, in China, no news is a good news.

PLAAF has got J-20, over 100 J-16, over 100 J-10C and 24 Su-35, but PLAN gets none of them. There are no more choices for PLAN.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> What I wanted to say is just that, what China lacks is not fund, but time.
> 
> Whether FC-31 gets orders from PLAN, it just depends on whether FC-31 can meet the needs of PLAN, or there is a better choice from CAC.
> 
> Besides, in China, no news is a good news.
> 
> PLAAF has got J-20, over 100 J-16, over 100 J-10C and 24 Su-35, but PLAN gets none of them. There are no more choices for PLAN.


Pakistan must placed order for them least 2 to 3 sqd maybe China & Pakistan resolved this issue internally...


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## Cool_Soldier

PAF should also ask China for J-20 acquisition.
One Sqd can do the job for deep strike and AIR SUPERIORITY ROLE.


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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> What I wanted to say is just that, what China lacks is not fund, but time.
> 
> Whether FC-31 gets orders from PLAN, it just depends on whether FC-31 can meet the needs of PLAN, or there is a better choice from CAC.
> 
> Besides, in China, no news is a good news.
> 
> PLAAF has got J-20, over 100 J-16, over 100 J-10C and 24 Su-35, but PLAN gets none of them. There are no more choices for PLAN.


I dont think you have 100 J20s but the rest I agree with.
A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> I dont think you have 100 J20s but the rest I agree with.
> A


Who claimed that China has 100 J-20s already?


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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> Who claimed that China has 100 J-20s already?


Sorry. Reread your post. My mistake.
Regards
A


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## Readerdefence

LKJ86 said:


> What I wanted to say is just that, what China lacks is not fund, but time.
> 
> Whether FC-31 gets orders from PLAN, it just depends on whether FC-31 can meet the needs of PLAN, or there is a better choice from CAC.
> 
> Besides, in China, no news is a good news.
> 
> PLAAF has got J-20, over 100 J-16, over 100 J-10C and 24 Su-35, but PLAN gets none of them. There are no more choices for PLAN.


Hi LKJ86 what choice do PLAN have beside j31 what’s your take on j20 will that fit on ACC
China is building as my understanding is still PLAN have sometime to get 001 fully operational so till that time you think j31 will be able to come up to the expectations Chinese naval wing 
Thank you


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## messiach

OK. 


Trailer23 said:


> Well currently that skin & what's behind it lies somewhere at the bottom of the Pacific - up for grabs.
> 
> ...and its well documented in an old History Channel documentary on the *Lockheed F-117 (Nighthawk)*.
> 
> Timestamp - *6:50*


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi LKJ86 what choice do PLAN have beside j31 what’s your take on j20 will that fit on ACC
> China is building as my understanding is still PLAN have sometime to get 001 fully operational so till that time you think j31 will be able to come up to the expectations Chinese naval wing
> Thank you


J20 is too heavy and large for current ACC of China ...

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## gambit

Trailer23 said:


> ...and its well documented in an old History Channel documentary on the *Lockheed F-117 (Nighthawk)*.


The word 'stealth' is somewhat a 'slang' or casual label. The more technically appropriate phrase is 'low radar observable'.

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## Trailer23

I never used the word 'Stealth'.

Seems everyone woke up from cryogenic (at the same time) & started replying back to a 2 day old post.


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## MIRauf

Current J-20 Model is not suited for A2G modes, the weapons bay is not deep enough to carry bombs. It probably could carry A2G Anti Radiation Missiles but so far all indication are on the A2A missiles only.

SAC has done great job on SU-27 / Su-30 Series, however to go from scratch design PAC/PAF is better off partnering with CAC ( J-10, J-20, FC-1 ) under their belt.

Rumor is that they ( CAC ) are working on a fighter for PLAAN, will it be available for export if selected by PLAAN si another question.


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## Beast

MIRauf said:


> Current J-20 Model is not suited for A2G modes, the weapons bay is not deep enough to carry bombs. It probably could carry A2G Anti Radiation Missiles but so far all indication are on the A2A missiles only.
> 
> SAC has done great job on SU-27 / Su-30 Series, however to go from scratch design PAC/PAF is better off partnering with CAC ( J-10, J-20, FC-1 ) under their belt.
> 
> Rumor is that they ( CAC ) are working on a fighter for PLAAN, will it be available for export if selected by PLAAN si another question.


What bomb do u expect to hang inside J-20 main weapon bay? Tsar bomb? J-20 weapon bay is even bigger than F-22.

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## Irfan Baloch

Beast said:


> What bomb do u expect to hang inside J-20 main weapon bay? Tsar bomb? J-20 weapon bay is even bigger than F-22.


that is true 
one can put an entire shipment of Chinese contraband and shower it on any target country bypassing customs duty

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## MIRauf

Beast, most likely 500lb / 1000lb, laser guided. So far PLAAF hasn't showed that J-20 can, yes I know there are things PLAAF keeps close to it chest and only shows when it's absolute necessary but can it do meaningful A2G ?

PS: Sharp Sword UAV be much better option for hunting S400 system then using J-20s.


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## Readerdefence

The Accountant said:


> J20 is too heavy and large for current ACC of China ...


Hi thx for your reply so with your answer there is definitely a j31 for PLAN in near coming years 
As these can be around 3-4 years max once the second fully operational ACC for China is up & running if I may allow to say and a bright chance for PAF with the j31
Your intake please on the above 
Thank you


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## Beast

MIRauf said:


> Beast, most likely 500lb / 1000lb, laser guided. So far PLAAF hasn't showed that J-20 can, yes I know there are things PLAAF keeps close to it chest and only shows when it's absolute necessary but can it do meaningful A2G ?
> 
> PS: Sharp Sword UAV be much better option for hunting S400 system then using J-20s.


You just reply what u ask. I don't think I need to say more.


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thx for your reply so with your answer there is definitely a j31 for PLAN in near coming years
> As these can be around 3-4 years max once the second fully operational ACC for China is up & running if I may allow to say and a bright chance for PAF with the j31
> Your intake please on the above
> Thank you



J31 is having some issues currently specially with respect to power to weight ratio ... for carrier operations a powerful engine is a must to adjust to short take off requirements so unkess j31 get this basic issue sorted out plan will not evaluate it further

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## LKJ86

The Accountant said:


> J31 is having some issues currently specially with respect to power to weight ratio ... for carrier operations a powerful engine is a must to adjust to short take off requirements so unkess j31 get this basic issue sorted out plan will not evaluate it further


If FC-31 is chose by PLAN, it will use WS-13E, and then WS-19.

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## The Accountant

LKJ86 said:


> If FC-31 is chose by PLAN, it will use WS-13E, and then WS-19.


Yes but engine is the core of an aircraft specially for naval warfare ... they will not commit unless they r sure of engine reliablity which is currenrly not there


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## Readerdefence

The Accountant said:


> J31 is having some issues currently specially with respect to power to weight ratio ... for carrier operations a powerful engine is a must to adjust to short take off requirements so unkess j31 get this basic issue sorted out plan will not evaluate it further


Hi so as per your analysis in your previous post coz of j20 bigger weight only viable option is j31
Beside the engine commonality no other issues so hopefully China will sort it out within 3 years timeline with this issue 
Any info on this 
Thank you


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## The Eagle

@khanasifm saw your post in other thread. 

That appears to be side bay door due to panel shape on FC-31 (V1) but what I am unable to understand is that, there is no room inside to hold weapons. May be they had plan for later modification or there is nothing as such?








Interestingly, the same panels did not exist in other photo of FC-31 V2.

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## Hayreddin

J31 is best option for paf in project azm if paf have plan to unveil 5 gen until 2025 .
Pakistan vesion of J31 could be with more powerful engine and with turkish systems / other intl markets options , better alloy for low observity , next gen avionics . Turkey is partner and have experience wid f35 and blockage created fuss btw USA and turkey . Time to get "benefit" from turkey in upgradation of pak version of j31 project azm . 
Paf can make potent 5 gen out of it and this can be possible within 5 years time span . 
Tai tfx is prolinged game after 2030 . J20 doesnt suit paf requirments .

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## Falcon26

Hayreddin said:


> J31 is best option for paf in project azm if paf have plan to unveil 5 gen until 2025 .
> Pakistan vesion of J31 could be with more powerful engine and with turkish systems / other intl markets options , better alloy for low observity , next gen avionics . Turkey is partner and have experience wid f35 and blockage created fuss btw USA and turkey . Time to get "benefit" from turkey in upgradation of pak version of j31 project azm .
> Paf can make potent 5 gen out of it and this can be possible within 5 years time span .
> Tai tfx is prolinged game after 2030 . J20 doesnt suit paf requirments .



A logical and smart approach, but we have seen enough indications that PAF is obsessed with a clean sheet design.

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## Fledgingwings

Its gonna be super expensive!!!!


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## python-000

Fledgingwings said:


> Its gonna be super expensive!!!!


But i think J-31 got every thing that our PAF needed with minor changes.


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## PakEye

Are the Project AZAM is a simple project for assembling of Chinese J-31 ???


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## Imran Khan

PakEye said:


> Are the Project AZAM is a simple project for assembling of Chinese J-31 ???


i will be happy if it is

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## Maxpane

it would save millions of dollars and would provide a home grown solution . it would becsanction proof

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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> it would save millions of dollars and would provide a home grown solution . it would becsanction proof


But cost more @Maxpane


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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> But cost more @Maxpane


elaborate sir


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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> elaborate sir


Means that for R & D Its consume lots of $$$$$ instead buying off the shelf product from other countries, which is cheaper option @Maxpane


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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> Means that for R & D Its consume lots of $$$$$ instead buying off the shelf product from other countries, which is cheaper option @Maxpane


R&d would benefit in longterm while buying would become the reason of sanctions and nothing. we can research and sell our product like jf 17 and it will reduce cost and improve product


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## Fawadqasim1

Clean sheet design will take a lot of time
We can play with our clean sheet design
and induct j31 somewhere in mid 20s


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Clean sheet design will take a lot of time
> We can play with our clean sheet design
> and induct j31 somewhere in mid 20s


FC-31 project is currently in jeopardy, Chinese military is not financing, it currently private (company) project @Fawadqasim1

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## Fawadqasim1

pakistanipower said:


> FC-31 project is currently in jeopardy, Chinese military is not financing, it currently private (company) project @Fawadqasim1


We can spare a few hundred million dollars
for it it's Paramount for us to have a stealth 
fighter in next few years. remember s400 
and Rafale are soon entering indian air force service.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> We can spare a few hundred million dollars
> for it it's Paramount for us to have a stealth
> fighter in next few years. remember s400
> and Rafale are soon entering indian air force service.


to disable S-400 and RAFALE threats there are lots way to defeat those system Stealth is not necessary, We could stop RAFALE to Purchase long range SAMs like HQ-9 as for S-400 we can counter it with Cruise Missiles, Short range Ballistic missile, Harpy like suicide drone etc etc @Fawadqasim1


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## Incog_nito

Any real possibility that PAF will get 50 j-20s after 2020?

Also, PAF should seek some Russian fighters along with Eu fighters.


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## Deino

IM Ozair said:


> Any real possibility that PAF will get 50 j-20s after 2020?
> 
> Also, PAF should seek some Russian fighters along with Eu fighters.



No ... and who should pay for this all?

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## Ultima Thule

IM Ozair said:


> Any real possibility that PAF will get 50 j-20s after 2020?
> 
> Also, PAF should seek some Russian fighters along with Eu fighters.


Forget EU or Russian fighters, and J-20 is also banned for export just like US F-22, Only options we have Either we can go J-10C or for Stealth FC-31 If project completed and PLAAN agrees to purchase FC-31 @IM Ozair

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## Fieldmarshal

Nothing is banned for Pakistan, when it comes to China.

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## Shabi1

pakistanipower said:


> FC-31 project is currently in jeopardy, Chinese military is not financing, it currently private (company) project @Fawadqasim1


As per sinodefence forum J-31 V3 or re designated J-35 is in the pipeline. Project was being stalled because of improved engine availability. WS-13E was insufficient thrust for carrier operations and future size increase of the jet so it's being redesigned for use with WS-19 engine and increased size for more internal fuel.

The coincidence of timeline overlap with what is being expected for Azm is uncanny so I'm still predicting this could still be customized/rebranded and enter PAF as Project Azm.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-...rrier-borne-fighter.t8173/page-25#post-548571
New rumor from *草根设计师-CAD*: https://www.weibo.com/3762825331/HnJRp9L10

那啥35，一切按步就班的推进，上船增重未超过10%, 燃油超过了8，估计两年内吧。关键是又有耍流氓的，又要玩截胡，还说我急我先来。
I provided a summary, but a detailed translation would be much appreciated:

Work is being done on the *J-35* (believed to be a carrier-borne fighter based on the FC-31)
There will be no more than a 10% increase in its mass
Its internal fuel exceeds 8 (tons?)
Estimated to be 2 years (away from reveal/debut?)
The PLAAF might also purchase the plane, and the air force variant might come out sooner than the naval variant (translation of the last part is needed)


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## Ultima Thule

Shabi1 said:


> As per sinodefence forum J-31 V3 or re designated J-35 is in the pipeline. Project was being stalled because of improved engine availability. WS-13E was insufficient thrust for carrier operations and future size increase of the jet so it's being redesigned for use with WS-19 engine and increased size for more internal fuel.
> 
> The coincidence of timeline overlap with what is being expected for Azm is uncanny so I'm still predicting this could still be customized/rebranded and enter PAF as Project Azm.
> 
> https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-...rrier-borne-fighter.t8173/page-25#post-548571
> New rumor from *草根设计师-CAD*: https://www.weibo.com/3762825331/HnJRp9L10
> 
> 那啥35，一切按步就班的推进，上船增重未超过10%, 燃油超过了8，估计两年内吧。关键是又有耍流氓的，又要玩截胡，还说我急我先来。
> I provided a summary, but a detailed translation would be much appreciated:
> 
> Work is being done on the *J-35* (believed to be a carrier-borne fighter based on the FC-31)
> There will be no more than a 10% increase in its mass
> Its internal fuel exceeds 8 (tons?)
> Estimated to be 2 years (away from reveal/debut?)
> The PLAAF might also purchase the plane, and the air force variant might come out sooner than the naval variant (translation of the last part is needed)


I know that bro but as you refer waiting for engine, and probable delays because redesign is not that easy as you think, i thinks 5 year will be more exact position for roll out J-31 V3 @Shabi1


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## Shabi1

pakistanipower said:


> I know that bro but as you refer waiting for engine, and probable delays because redesign is not that easy as you think, i thinks 5 year will be more exact position for roll out J-31 V3 @Shabi1


True, airframe redesign is major work, but we don't know how long back this has been initiated maybe naval variant started 2 year back (speculation). So as per the Chinese source 2 more years would total 4yrs is plausible.
Nothing confirm but we do know alot of waiting involved.

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## Humble Analyst

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions


Is even China willing to give this to Pakistan?



Fieldmarshal said:


> Nothing is banned for Pakistan, when it comes to China.


That is optimistic, very optimistic.

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## Deino

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions





Fieldmarshal said:


> Nothing is banned for Pakistan, when it comes to China.



I'm really amazed on these posts at first sight but annoyed the more often I read such a BS:

Why do you guys always think Pakistan is in the position to decide in regard to Chinese developed systems on what they get, and how? If they can go to ToT or simply purchase and even more this strange belief that everything is available and at best for free? 

I reminds me on the early days of the Sin-Soviet relationship, where the strange consequence was the misbelief of the PRC’s leadership not only that China has a right to receive this all for nearly nothing, but also, that it was so much easy to develop modern combat aircraft and exactly the same is here: "just take the JF-17 and enlarge it; let us add a much larger, wider and more powerful engine - or at best even two of them -, let us add several more pylons, weapons and so on ... it's all that easy, just like updating a new App at the mobile. 

You guys are really funny, but you should grew up, do your homework and learn to become realistic.

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## Dazzler

IM Ozair said:


> Any real possibility that PAF will get 50 j-20s after 2020?



J20 is not for export.

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## zulu

Spot on .Tragedy of us the Pakistanis,always try to define strategic and economic relations between countries either on love (in case of China) or hate basis(USA) but not on their real merit 


Humble Analyst said:


> Is even China willing to give this to Pakistan?
> 
> 
> That is optimistic, very optimistic.

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## The Accountant

Deino said:


> I'm really amazed on these posts at first sight but annoyed the more often I read such a BS:
> 
> Why do you guys always think Pakistan is in the position to decide in regard to Chinese developed systems on what they get, and how? If they can go to ToT or simply purchase and even more this strange belief that everything is available and at best for free?
> 
> I reminds me on the early days of the Sin-Soviet relationship, where the strange consequence was the misbelief of the PRC’s leadership not only that China has a right to receive this all for nearly nothing, but also, that it was so much easy to develop modern combat aircraft and exactly the same is here: "just take the JF-17 and enlarge it; let us add a much larger, wider and more powerful engine - or at best even two of them -, let us add several more pylons, weapons and so on ... it's all that easy, just like updating a new App at the mobile.
> 
> You guys are really funny, but you should grew up, do your homework and learn to become realistic.



Kindly ignore fan boy posts. Senior members here knows that nothing is for free. Even aid and donations has conditions attached to it and have hidden costs

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## araz

Deino said:


> I'm really amazed on these posts at first sight but annoyed the more often I read such a BS:
> 
> Why do you guys always think Pakistan is in the position to decide in regard to Chinese developed systems on what they get, and how? If they can go to ToT or simply purchase and even more this strange belief that everything is available and at best for free?
> 
> I reminds me on the early days of the Sin-Soviet relationship, where the strange consequence was the misbelief of the PRC’s leadership not only that China has a right to receive this all for nearly nothing, but also, that it was so much easy to develop modern combat aircraft and exactly the same is here: "just take the JF-17 and enlarge it; let us add a much larger, wider and more powerful engine - or at best even two of them -, let us add several more pylons, weapons and so on ... it's all that easy, just like updating a new App at the mobile.
> 
> You guys are really funny, but you should grew up, do your homework and learn to become realistic.


Deino
Dont waste your breath and raise your BP. Believe me we have tried and given up. It is simply no use. It is the same naivity of"if you can't afford it take a loan and get it". Or ee can get XYand Z when the fountry is morally economically and socially bankrupt. I dont even know what to say to these naive posters.
A

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## Trailer23

Fieldmarshal said:


> Nothing is banned for Pakistan, when it comes to China.


To keep everything perspective - that statement isn't accurate, however, China does seem to bend the rules for Pakistan (when needed).

If Pakistan were to take interest in the J-20, China may budge - but financing it may be out of our reach.

So its pointless to get into the debate of what Pakistan can or can't get their hands on.

Plus, I am bit curious as to what the J-20 is sooooo off-limits to other nations? What (do) the Chinese have in the bird that's so secretive.

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## Readerdefence

Trailer23 said:


> To keep everything perspective - that statement isn't accurate, however, China does seem to bend the rules for Pakistan (when needed).
> 
> If Pakistan were to take interest in the J-20, China may budge - but financing it may be out of our reach.
> 
> So its pointless to get into the debate of what Pakistan can or can't get their hands on.
> 
> Plus, I am bit curious as to what the J-20 is sooooo off-limits to other nations? What (do) the Chinese have in the bird that's so secretive.


Hi my friend it’s the same case like F22 which is even off limit for even from USA most trusted country on this earth Israel airforce though they can get anything from USA on any terms 
Alas F22 is off limits now the Q here is why we want j20 from China one can imagine easily it’s their prime & sole innovation at the moment 
PAF can get j20 in one case & that is if Pakistani government can convince Chinese to station their j20s with their own pilots rest assured paf can get j20 at their own once Chinese jump to 6 generation or something better then j20 for their self 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## Imran Khan

Get this baby before its too late


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## Trailer23

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend it’s the same case like F22 which is even off limit for even from USA most trusted country on this earth Israel airforce though they can get anything from USA on any terms
> Alas F22 is off limits now the Q here is why we want j20 from China one can imagine easily it’s their prime & sole innovation at the moment
> PAF can get j20 in one case & that is if Pakistani government can convince Chinese to station their j20s with their own pilots rest assured paf can get j20 at their own once Chinese jump to 6 generation or something better then j20 for their self
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you


Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.

The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: *Huawei 5G*

I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.

Its either:
*a)* PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
*b)* PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.

Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!

Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.

Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "_Not for Export_". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...

Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?


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## Ultima Thule

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.
> 
> The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: *Huawei 5G*
> 
> I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.
> 
> Its either:
> *a)* PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
> *b)* PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.
> 
> Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!
> 
> Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.
> 
> Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "_Not for Export_". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...
> 
> Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?


there is a Chance that both Parties don't want to export both jets for export because its technology (F-22/J-20) might fall into enemy hands for F-22 (Russian/Chinese), for J-20 (India/USA/EU) @Trailer23


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## Readerdefence

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.
> 
> The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: *Huawei 5G*
> 
> I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.
> 
> Its either:
> *a)* PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
> *b)* PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.
> 
> Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!
> 
> Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.
> 
> Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "_Not for Export_". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...
> 
> Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?


Hi my friend thanks for your detailed & in-depth reply 
Now if i May ask you couple of more Q against the j20 supply for PAF
I hope you can elaborate more against my Q
A why would you think China will give away their latest technology which even they didn’t export 
To any other country even not sharing anything with Russia against their stealth technology 
B Why do you think China shouldn’t take the same stride as USA did for F22 
As being a less informed member on this forum I think I can say to some extent that f35 is less capable then the F22 as USA is not willing to share their Raptor technology with any other nation 
I think same is the case with China they will surely sell their stealth technology to PAF or may be any other Middle Eastern country but with inferior technology to j20 that’s the reason j31 is still in the shadows for some time as China also have some years to go for their fully operational 2/3
ACC for their naval force 
Just my thoughts Pakistan shouldn’t be expecting everything specially the top tier Chinese technology until unless Chinese have upgraded version of that technology as there is no free lunch on the table specially every time 
Once again thx for your early detailed reply
Thank you


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## Ultima Thule

Readerdefence said:


> To any other country even not sharing anything with Russia against their stealth technology


Not sharing but its a possibility that J-20 tech will fall in enemy hands (india/USA) through spying missions that why China hesitates to export J-20 and same goes to USA @Readerdefence


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## Trailer23

pakistanipower said:


> there is a Chance that both Parties don't want to export both jets for export because its technology (F-22/J-20) might fall into enemy hands for F-22 (Russian/Chinese), for J-20 (India/USA/EU) @Trailer23


Well, yeah that could be the case, but as I mentioned earlier the F-22 is no longer in production & Congress doesn't want to buy any more OR let Lockheed Martin sell 'em to another Nation.

Not to upset our Chinese friends, but the fact is that though the F-22 is 2 decade old tech, the J-20 isn't anywhere near the Raptor.

And there is a purpose for these type of Jets wither we accept it or not. The so-called 'Stealth' technology was basically an advanced version of the U-2 that the Americans introduced. If China fears that it may end up in the hands of India/US/EU, then they might as well put them under covers & fly 'em at Parades & Air Shows.



Readerdefence said:


> A. why would you think China will give away their latest technology which even they didn’t export To any other country even not sharing anything with Russia against their stealth technology
> B. Why do you think China shouldn’t take the same stride as USA did for F22 As being a less informed member on this forum I think I can say to some extent that f35 is less capable then the F22 as USA is not willing to share their Raptor technology with any other nation
> I think same is the case with China they will surely sell their stealth technology to PAF or may be any other Middle Eastern country but with inferior technology to j20 that’s the reason j31 is still in the shadows for some time as China also have some years to go for their fully operational 2/3
> ACC for their naval force
> Just my thoughts Pakistan shouldn’t be expecting everything specially the top tier Chinese technology until unless Chinese have upgraded version of that technology as there is no free lunch on the table specially every time
> Once again thx for your early detailed reply
> Thank you


First off, though the J-20 is now operational - I do not believe that the Chinese are completely satisfied with its engines 100%. Sure, there might be a Block II in the works with more goodies involved, but to say the J-20 is near perfect is an under statement. They can & will improve it (further).

If the J-20 was all as it has been advertised, the Chinese would not be shopping for the Su-57...and trust me, those RUSki's don't need China to share their Stealth Tech.

Obviously the F-22 is far more advanced than the F-35, which also explains the drop in $10 Million price tag from Lockheed Martin for the USAF.

In comparison the J-20 is the F-22 & the J-31 is the F-35 for China. And China might not sell the J-20 to anyone in the Middle East (for obvious reasons), but if there is any Nation - Pakistan would/could get it - if they could cough up the money.

I (personally) believe that some of friends on PDF automatically insinuate that just because we've had a long standing relations with China, they're just gonna pick up the phone & ask us to come over & take whatever we want in their inventory free of cost.

Currently..., i'm interested in a Trump/IK Meeting in the future. THAT meeting will lay out the options the PAF will have. We either get F-16's or not.

If not, what're our options...? J-10's or FC-31/J-31.

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## Humble Analyst

zulu said:


> Spot on .Tragedy of us the Pakistanis,always try to define strategic and economic relations between countries either on love (in case of China) or hate basis(USA) but not on their real merit





Trailer23 said:


> Well, yeah that could be the case, but as I mentioned earlier the F-22 is no longer in production & Congress doesn't want to buy any more OR let Lockheed Martin sell 'em to another Nation.
> 
> Not to upset our Chinese friends, but the fact is that though the F-22 is 2 decade old tech, the J-20 isn't anywhere near the Raptor.
> 
> And there is a purpose for these type of Jets wither we accept it or not. The so-called 'Stealth' technology was basically an advanced version of the U-2 that the Americans introduced. If China fears that it may end up in the hands of India/US/EU, then they might as well put them under covers & fly 'em at Parades & Air Shows.
> 
> 
> First off, though the J-20 is now operational - I do not believe that the Chinese are completely satisfied with its engines 100%. Sure, there might be a Block II in the works with more goodies involved, but to say the J-20 is near perfect is an under statement. They can & will improve it (further).
> 
> If the J-20 was all as it has been advertised, the Chinese would not be shopping for the Su-57...and trust me, those RUSki's don't need China to share their Stealth Tech.
> 
> Obviously the F-22 is far more advanced than the F-35, which also explains the drop in $10 Million price tag from Lockheed Martin for the USAF.
> 
> In comparison the J-20 is the F-22 & the J-31 is the F-35 for China. And China might not sell the J-20 to anyone in the Middle East (for obvious reasons), but if there is any Nation - Pakistan would/could get it - if they could cough up the money.
> 
> I (personally) believe that some of friends on PDF automatically insinuate that just because we've had a long standing relations with China, they're just gonna pick up the phone & ask us to come over & take whatever we want in their inventory free of cost.
> 
> Currently..., i'm interested in a Trump/IK Meeting in the future. THAT meeting will lay out the options the PAF will have. We either get F-16's or not.
> 
> If not, what're our options...? J-10's or FC-31/J-31.


Forget about getting anything of value. Time for reality check

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## Deino

*Guys ... stay on topic, and neither the F-22 and Israel nor the J-20 has any relevance to the FC-31 and the PAF.*

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## thepakistani

Newer version J35 seems more promising and capable with WS19 engine 
It would suit ideally with project Azam
Parallel to this TFX can be incorporated

If AZAM and TFX both focus it, may develop into a formidable fifth gen to challenge F35

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

@Deino has talked many a times about pakistan not having funds for aircraft---.

Yet the production of 054's has begun---4---one after the other---8 submarines---1 after the other---and multiple other corvettes and weapons---.

What was that---close to 8 billion dollar deals for navy---.

And according to deino---pak had no funds---.

Now for the J20---the J20 is not fully developed---it is in the critical stage of final development---. Once it reaches that stage---it would first meet the needs of the Plaaf by default---. And after that if Paf decides to buy it---there is nothing from the chinese side that would stop it---.

Write it down---take it to the bank and deposit it in the safe deposit---.

Over 8 years ago I wrote about pak navy to get the type 054's---4 subs and aircraft---and all super studs were crying---Pak has no money---but about 3-4 years ago---suddenly the money popped up---.

The problem here is not china---the problem here is pakistan---. Pakistanis are petty criminals---all they know is to take bribes and commission and steal land---they do not know how to make deals for the welfare of the nation---.

The American came asking for help after 9/11---. Pakistan was sitting on the deal of the century---yet they fckd up so bad that you cannot even cry about it---. The US was a LAYDOWN at that time---and yet the pakistani public let them get away with it---.

What happened with the 8 submarine order---and the 4 type 054 order---. The indian sub came in visiting---. Pakistan navy was fck face wondering what happened---china was fck faced what did we do---they both suddenly found out that they both fckd up---.

The geo political tactical situation of gwadar had taken a very very serious and a sharp turn or the worst---as it was supposed to---and I had talked about it for a almost decade ago that neither would china---nor would pakistan be ready to protect gwadar because they both were not ready to understand what gwadar was doing to the region---.

Next came the Yemen crisis---where pakistan again failed miserably to understand the consequences---. The came 26th feb---and then came the sanctions back on iran---iran also threatened to attack pakistan as well---US naval battle group back in the region and then suddenly china realized how critical the situation had grown---.

The US had deployed the F22 / F35 in an active role in the region ( syria )to tell pakistan and china---hey little boyz---take a look at our toyz---.

Now why is china building the J20's if it still needs changes---because it wants to get its pilots and techs ready to use the aircraft to its fullest capacity and familiarize itself with what it has now---and when the final changes take place the pilots and tech would already be on top of their game knowing the aircraft to around 80%---and the newer changes would be absorbed at a much much faster pace---.

That final product is what the Paf would want---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> @Deino has talked many a times about pakistan not having funds for aircraft---.
> ...
> And according to deino---pak had no funds---.
> ....
> That final product is what the Paf would want---.




Pardon to say so, but again You are deliberately misquote one of my previous post, put it into a wrong perspective, hide the issue I addressed to by other useless and irrelevant stuff and in the end reply with exactly the same nonsense like my once two year-old kid in the Supermarket.

In summary: I want this and that and I need to get it the way I like it to get ... like "That final product is what the Paf would want"

Again, after our last discussion on "just mate the FC-31 design, which is a copy of the F-35 and mate it with a WS-19 - that can't be too difficult - .." I cannot take you serious any more.

Therefore I would like to quote You from another post:



MastanKhan said:


> That is not intelligent of you---. Talk intelligent please---.



Please take your own advice and "Talk intelligent please".

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## python-000

Just


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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Pardon to say so, but again You are deliberately misquote one of my previous post, put it into a wrong perspective, hide the issue I addressed to by other useless and irrelevant stuff and in the end reply with exactly the same nonsense like my once two year-old kid in the Supermarket.
> 
> In summary: I want this and that and I need to get it the way I like it to get ... like "That final product is what the Paf would want"
> 
> Again, after our last discussion on "just mate the FC-31 design, which is a copy of the F-35 and mate it with a WS-19 - that can't be too difficult - .." I cannot take you serious any more.
> 
> Therefore I would like to quote You from another post:
> 
> 
> 
> Please take your own advice and "Talk intelligent please".



Hi @Deino

I have yet to see an article about J31 that does not say it to not to be a copy of the F35---.

The reports presented in front of the US congress / senate say the same thing about the stolen design---.

They don't know---but the great @Deino knows it all---even though the chinese were spanked hard for stealing the design features of the F35---but as they did not inform you---it did not happen---.

Deino---I know what I know---I just bring out your name just to rub your face in the dirt to let you know---if pakistan wants it---it will get it from china---just like the 8 sub contract---just like the 4 type 054's in production---an over 6 billion dollar deal---.

These are just 3 links at random on the web comparing the j31 to be a design of the F35---.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938

https://www.businessinsider.com/9-p...t-version-of-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-2018-10


https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/g23303922/china-copycat-air-force/

Shenyang J-31 and the U.S. F-35





VCG AND YICHUAN CAO/NURPHOTOGETTY IMAGES
Like the F-22, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was also compromised by Su Bin, leading to China’s J-31 program. This jet, still under development, possesses a greater operational range and larger payload capacity than the F-35 it was based on. There is an expectation that the J-31 will become China’s primary carrier-based fighter once it reaches full production, replacing the PLA-N’s troubled J-15 once it enters service. Like the J-20 program, the J-31 is limited by China’s inexperience with stealth aircraft.

Aesthetically, the J-31 seems to borrow heavily from both the F-35 and F-22 programs, suggesting that it may be lighter and more maneuverable than America’s top-tier fighter. But it does lack some degree of the F-35’s stealth characteristics, as well as the American jet’s real claim to fame—a sensor suite that offers the pilot greater awareness of the battlespace.

In many ways, the F-35 serves not only as a fighter, but as a data hub. There is no indication that China’s J-31 has been able to fuse such a large variety of feeds into a singular manageable interface. That means the F-35’s ability to fight from beyond the horizon won’t be found in its Chinese knock-off.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938

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## Ghessan

intelligence does not come easy, one who talk intelligent only worth when he is a big mouth and big mouth be little others hence always harsh and not easy to swallow. 

knowledge when come, it stays and bring more of everything only by furthering of it in a sea of the fields of life with time and age. it does not only help learn something respective but open the mind up to a universal level and by understanding of things due to observation which is then correct by a refined brain to the level next to everything.

knowledge is not understood, it is beyond that and surprise every time until you are in a company of "the people" which is hard to find.

challenging knowledge is ignorance which is easily available and sell cheap.


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## MastanKhan

https://thediplomat.com/2018/11/is-china-rethinking-the-shenyang-j-31-fighter/

Moreover, the United States has repeatedly suggested that the J-31 depends on several technologies stolen from the F-35, which might also create concerns for fighter customers sensitive to U.S. intellectual property law. The ability of the United States to interfere with arms transactions between China and Russia portends ill for states that try to purchase technologies that the U.S. regards as stolen.

Unlike the F-35, the J-31 has two engines, making it more palatable to the naval aviation community. These engines will reportedly be a upgrade of the WS-13 engine currently used by the JF-17. Given that China continues to struggle with the larger, more complex engines on the J-20, this success may serve to make the J-31 an even more attractive option. Indeed, Perret and Trimble also report that the PLAAF will acquire some number of J-31s, given that the navy will be paying the bulk of development and testing costs in any case.

Problems remain with the J-31. While the airframe seems to strongly resemble the F-35, there is little reason to believe that it integrates the kind of technology suite that makes the F-35 uniquely lethal. Moreover, the J-31 still requires years of development. But at this point, it looks like the PLAN may have a plan for its first real generation of carrier aircraft.

_The views expressed here are his personal views and do not necessarily reflect those of the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, the Army War College, or any other department or agency of the U.S. government.

@Deino --
you just talk clever---

Here you are denying US govt's reports about china's J31 and US F35 issues---._

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.
> 
> The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: *Huawei 5G*
> 
> I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.
> 
> Its either:
> *a)* PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
> *b)* PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.
> 
> Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!
> 
> Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.
> 
> Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "_Not for Export_". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...
> 
> Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?


A few random thoughts regarding your post. Firstly I dont think China is where it needs to be to take on a fight with the US. The Huawei point you mentioned is a life or death situation for the Chinese telecom industry but it will not translate into a full blown war or possibly even a full blown trade war with the US. Neither sides can afford it and at some stage depending on the relative strengths in the argument of both sides compromises will be made. Idont think Chinese naval developments are quite there to match the US. However push coming to shove, the Chinese can give the US A bloody nose if not a full blown knock out in this game either. So I think this is aggressive posturing which will be used to gain a relative strength or weak posture which can then be used to negotiate a trade settlement. I think it would be extremely unwise of either parties to indulge in aggressive actions so beyond posturing to gain strength HOPEFULLY(there are stages of aggression and the risk is one or the other party may lose their nerve and then send things into a spiral of no retuurn) nothing much more will happen. 
J20 vis a vis Paklands is an interesting scenario. Iagree that China will not part with it but at what stage do the stakes go high enough for China to reconsider is an interesting analytical dilemma for us arm chair generals. Ex CAS in hks last speech gave some parameters for project Azm. If I remember it said 6k km range which only J20 can cover. J31 is fast approaching its end of life and without support from PLAN might die a slow death. Iwill gladly accept otherwise but my memory suggests that it does not have the requisite range to qualify for PAF. So PAF may either get J20 in limited numbers to maintain parity and then continue on Azm as a single engined fighter or if things improve significantly may go for the TFX/ chinese single seat offering as joint production. Where the money for all of this is going to come from is anyone's guess. I dont for my sins see Paklands economy improving in the short to middle term.
A


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## Deino

I knew would bring again these BS report and as I already said - in fact offered to as an explanation for our dispute - these reports are all politically biased, aimed for a certain public interest to spur opinion and not a fact. Every Lockheed Martin designer know that they are not a copy, ... only you still think so.

but again, it is all on the definition of "copy" and IMO a C919 is not a copy or an A320 or B-737 even if they are even more similar than the F-35 and FC-31. Therefore holding this opinion the FC-31 is a bold-by-bolt copy of the F-35 is plain stupid.

And by the way, quoting Nationalinterest.org and Dave Majumdar as a reliable source says everything.

But yes, tell the world how stupid I am, bring out my name just to rub my face in the dirt to let me ... anyone with a common sense agrees with that statue below.

Nuff said









MastanKhan said:


> https://thediplomat.com/2018/11/is-china-rethinking-the-shenyang-j-31-fighter/
> ...._
> Here you are denying US govt's reports about china's J31 and US F35 issues---._



Again more blablabla from You, several issues I do not question and even agree, but the point of calling it a copy is plain stupid and even more ridiculous is to think Pakistan can simply say I want and China jumps and delivers, even more the blue-prints of the FC-31 & WS-19 so that You can "easily develop a single engines type". That is so much utterly nonsense ....

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> and even more ridiculous is to think Pakistan can simply say I want and China jumps and delivers,



Hi,

Pakistan asked and china has---. The 054's---possible delivery to start next year---the submarine possible delivery to start next year---. That is close to 6 billion dollars +++ deal---.

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## LeGenD

@Deino

I agree with you in this, FC-31 is not a clone of F-35 and/or F-22 upon a closer look. In fact, FC-31 is technically more similar to Su-57 (LO design).

J-20 is China's true experiment in developing something close to American 5th generation aircraft but still a vastly different design. China have defined its own jet design classes actually.

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> @Deino
> 
> I agree with you, FC-31 is not a clone of either F-35 and F-22 upon a closer look. In fact, FC-31 is technically more similar to Su-57 (LO design).
> 
> J-20 is China's true experiment in developing something close to American 5th generation but still a vastly different design. China have defined its own jet design classes actually.


What F-31 is more similar to Su-57, please explain how, and there are no clear definition on VLO/LO designs, J-20 is VLO design similar to F-22 in frontal aspects but in rear aspects we should wait until WS-15 will install on J-20 in 2023 @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> What F-31 is more similar to Su-57, please explain how, and there are no clear definition on VLO/LO designs, J-20 is VLO design similar to F-22 in frontal aspects but in rear aspects we should wait until WS-15 will install on J-20 in 2023 @LeGenD


Have a closer look:-
















Both are vastly different designs, and FC-31 is not VLO (not even close).
















FC-31 is technically similar to Russian jets (look at the entire aft/rear section), even frontal cone, radar system and engines in use. There is some difference in S-duct aspect mainly.

LO = 1.0 m^2 - 0.01 m^2 uniform RCS range
VLO = 0.001 m^2 and lower uniform RCS range

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> Have a closer look:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are vastly different designs, and FC-31 is not VLO (not even close).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FC-31 is technically similar to Russian jets (look at the entire aft/rear section). Even frontal cone and radar structures are technically similar to Russian jets.
> 
> LO = 1.0 m^2 - 0.01 m^2 uniform RCS range
> VLO = 0.001 m^2 and lower uniform RCS range


and what about lots of bumps on F-35 fuselage they should increase RCS from all angle, Stealth first rule that fuselage clean and smooth surfaces as much as can, that F-22/FC-31/J-20 using this rule, F-35 has bigger RCS than those jet, i thinks @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> and what about lots of bumps on F-35 fuselage they should increase RCS from all angle, Stealth first rule that fuselage clean and smooth surfaces as much as can, that F-22/FC-31/J-20 using this rule, F-35 has bigger RCS than those jet, i thinks @LeGenD




FC-31 prototype (31001) have such a clean bottom and surface because it is not finalized and lacking in key war-fighting technicalities (tech-demonstrator).

F-35 in the images I provided in my earlier post, is/was operating with "radar reflectors."

---

F-35 operating in VLO mode for reference.











Absolutely clean bottom is not necessary to ensure VLO output, and neither technically feasible in a complex war-fighting machine. Nevertheless, F-35 have smooth and shapely edges all around, and look at its aft section (VLO-compliant engine design; details below*).






Su-57 have two very long and sharp protruding edges in comparison, and look at the aft/rear section (not VLO; traditional Russian).

---

Both F-35 and F-22 operating in testing phase(s) below.











---

VLO design philosophy is a very complex domain with lot of minute details that are not clear to public.











---

*One of the largest sources of RCS is the engine + exhaust nozzles combo.

Engine of F-35 is designed to have a small thermal footprint and deflect radar waves with its carefully designed serrated exhaust nozzles.
















Unusually long exhaust pipe which narrows down the viewing angle from where hot & highly-reflective parts are visible to an IRST/radar and there is also a radar blocker in the exhaust pipe.


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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> FC-31 prototype (31001) have such a clean bottom and surface because it is not finalized and lacking in key war-fighting technicalities (tech-demonstrator).
> 
> ---
> 
> F-35 operating in VLO mode for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely clean bottom is not necessary to ensure VLO output, and neither technically feasible in a complex war-fighting machine. Nevertheless, F-35 have smooth and shapely edges all around, and look at the engine rear (VLO design format).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-57 have sharp protruding edges in comparison, and look at the aft/rear section = not even a semblance of VLO in there.
> 
> ---
> 
> Both F-35 and F-22 operating in testing phase(s) below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *NOTE:* F-35 in the images I provided in my earlier post, is/was operating with radar reflectors.
> 
> ---
> 
> VLO design philosophy is a very complex domain with lot of minute details that are not clear to public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> One of the largest sources of RCS is the engine.
> 
> Engine of F-35 is designed to have a small thermal footprint and deflect radar waves with its carefully designed serrated nozzles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unusually long exhaust pipe which narrows down the viewing angle from where hot & highly-reflective parts are visible to an IRST/radar and there is also a radar blocker in the exhaust pipe.


Sir you are too much inspire USA tech, F-35 bottom bumps for underside of its fuselage might increase its RCS from below, Russian has no $$$ to build true 5th gen VLO designs, if you thinks FC-31 in development stages then why you compare it to F-35/Su-57 which are more complete projects currently @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> Sir you are too much inspire USA tech, F-35 bottom bumps for underside of its fuselage might increase its RCS from below, Russian has no $$$ to build true 5th gen VLO designs, if you thinks FC-31 in development stages then why you compare it to F-35/Su-57 which are more complete projects currently @LeGenD


US is the driver of innovation worldwide including in China, and the undisputed leader in the domain of aeronautical engineering. China have to prove its mettle in this domain on the other hand.

F-35(x) Block-3f (approved for mass production) have a uniform RCS of 3.8 mm (0.0003 - 0.0004 m^2 range) in VLO mode = information declassified by the Air Force Magazine source in 2019 recently.

What can you tell about the uniform rcs of FC-31 in person just from pictures? Any insider source? Any finalized design? NOTHING, just wild assumptions. The jet looks far from complete to me TBH.






Fixed this image in my previous post - bottom technicalities of F-35 - a very well-equipped warfighting machine on the whole.

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## Avicenna

LeGenD said:


> Americans are drivers of innovation worldwide including in Chin, and undisputed leader in aeronautical engineering - do I have to highlight this simple fact to you?
> 
> F-35(x) Block 3f (mass production variant) have a uniform RCS of 3.8 mm in VLO mode = information declassified by the Air Force Magazine source in 2019 recently.
> 
> What do you know about FC-31 in person? Any concrete uniform rcs figure? Any finalized design? NOTHING, just wild assumptions. The jet looks far from complete to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*That*_ is a complete and a very complex war-machine.



No one can touch the US when it comes to aerial warfare.

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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi @Deino
> 
> I have yet to see an article about J31 that does not say it to not to be a copy of the F35---.
> 
> The reports presented in front of the US congress / senate say the same thing about the stolen design---.
> 
> They don't know---but the great @Deino knows it all---even though the chinese were spanked hard for stealing the design features of the F35---but as they did not inform you---it did not happen---.
> 
> Deino---I know what I know---I just bring out your name just to rub your face in the dirt to let you know---if pakistan wants it---it will get it from china---just like the 8 sub contract---just like the 4 type 054's in production---an over 6 billion dollar deal---.
> 
> These are just 3 links at random on the web comparing the j31 to be a design of the F35---.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/9-p...t-version-of-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-2018-10
> 
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/g23303922/china-copycat-air-force/
> 
> Shenyang J-31 and the U.S. F-35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VCG AND YICHUAN CAO/NURPHOTOGETTY IMAGES
> Like the F-22, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was also compromised by Su Bin, leading to China’s J-31 program. This jet, still under development, possesses a greater operational range and larger payload capacity than the F-35 it was based on. There is an expectation that the J-31 will become China’s primary carrier-based fighter once it reaches full production, replacing the PLA-N’s troubled J-15 once it enters service. Like the J-20 program, the J-31 is limited by China’s inexperience with stealth aircraft.
> 
> Aesthetically, the J-31 seems to borrow heavily from both the F-35 and F-22 programs, suggesting that it may be lighter and more maneuverable than America’s top-tier fighter. But it does lack some degree of the F-35’s stealth characteristics, as well as the American jet’s real claim to fame—a sensor suite that offers the pilot greater awareness of the battlespace.
> 
> In many ways, the F-35 serves not only as a fighter, but as a data hub. There is no indication that China’s J-31 has been able to fuse such a large variety of feeds into a singular manageable interface. That means the F-35’s ability to fight from beyond the horizon won’t be found in its Chinese knock-off.
> 
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938


China is not eager to share the stealth technology with Pakistan at the moment and this is the reality

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## Readerdefence

Humble Analyst said:


> China is not eager to share the stealth technology with Pakistan at the moment and this is the reality


Hi my friend if I may say to add precisely not eager to share at the moment and specifically with J20
Thank you

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## Falcon26

Pakistan is working with China on it’s next generation fighter program. Both countries are cooperating in the manufacturing of advanced radars, avionics and other subsystems. This is part of CPEC and was broken by the NY TIMES in December 2018. This gives Pakistan an accelerated path to its stealth fighter program by piggybacking off China’s technological advances. 

“a special economic zone under CPEC would be created in Pakistan to produce a new generation of fighter jets. For the first time, navigation systems, radar systems and onboard weapons would be built jointly by the countries at factories in Pakistan.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/world/asia/pakistan-china-belt-road-military.html

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> F-35(x) Block-3f (approved for mass production) have a uniform RCS of 3.8 mm (0.0003 - 0.0004 m^2 range) in VLO mode = information declassified by the Air Force Magazine source in 2019 recently.


Not as a whole it might be has only front/head on RCS that you refer from side and from below it has much increased RCS due to those bumps @LeGenD


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## GriffinsRule

Stealth is more than shaping but also goes deeper than the surface. Internal structure of the airframe is also designed to reduce signature as radar waves penetrate carbon fiber and other composite materials to varying degrees than metal surfaces. 
The flat bottom of the FC-31 is probably more reflective than the curved undersides of the F-35. 
The aircraft many times stealthier than the F-35 is the B-2 and it's not a flat panel.

Outside of the design, the real strength of America besides the engines is their software, radars, ew and then the interconnectivity of all the various sensors from all sources. This sensor fusion is what gives the Americans the real leg up

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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> Not as a whole it might be has only front/head on RCS that you refer from side and from below it has much increased RCS due to those bumps @LeGenD


No, it is uniform RCS.

Declassified information at a glance: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/PublishingImages/2019/May 2019/F-15.F-35_Vertical.v30.pdf

RCS reduction measures are numerous, and many of these measures are not thoroughly/properly elaborated in public domain (understandable). There is no such thing as a standard stealth design for every developer to emulate *but* select-few rcs reduction PRINCIPLES are important considerations in theory. For instance, shaping should be done in the manner as to deflect radar waves in directions away from the emitter and high quality RAM coatings should be applied to the surface to minimize 'surface reflections' by turning the energy into heat. 

Shaping might be 90% important and materials might be 10% important for rcs reduction in theory, but this isn't true in practice. Below is some revelation:

_"The F-22's RCS was equated to that of a marble (−40 dBsm) during development, but is rumored to have beaten this figure. The F-35's RCS was originally equated to that of a golf ball (−30 dBsm), but more recently insiders have hinted its RCS might have beaten the F-22 with its superior modeling, stealthier intakes and advanced materials." _- Aviation Week

Construction secrets HINTED.

F-35's airframe = 42% of composite fiber mat 
F-22's airframe = 22% of composite fiber mat
F-16's airframe = 2% of composite fiber mat

Composite construction is essential to reduce 'mismatches and gaps' that create unwanted radar reflections off the aircraft's body and surfaces.







F-35's airframe also feature non-perpendicular corners to suppress 'surface reflections'. Lockeed Martin's revolutionary RAM coatings suppress 'surface reflections' even more. 

An important consideration is to limit the number of edges an aircraft has, and to align the existing edges to a small number of directions; parts that stick up with a lot of edges need to be covered by a curved surface. F-35 have blended curves all around accordingly.

Once again, flat body structure is not necessary, might not be technically feasible based on the type of war-fighting capabilities expected from the finalized product, and neither it will make much difference all on its own. A developer need to factor-in various war-fighting technicalities in order to develop a very capable war-machine within a specified budget. Therefore, developer will have to look for additional ways to ensure VLO output, and this is why true VLO aircraft are very expensive and difficult to design on the whole.

Design of engine; exhaust structure; exhaust nozzles; avionics; and RAM coatings = every facet will make difference in the end.

Refer back to my revelations in post # 2410: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...-updates-debate.343466/page-161#post-11536231

All of it flew over your head, didn't it?

Chinese LO designs have significant shortcomings which trained eyes can easily notice and pinpoint. FC-31 prototype (31001) is an RC toy in comparison to F-35 in its current form (Block-3f). Provide technical evidence to the contrary, if you can.

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> No, it is uniform RCS.
> 
> Declassified information at a glance: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/PublishingImages/2019/May 2019/F-15.F-35_Vertical.v30.pdf
> 
> RCS reduction measures are numerous, and many of these measures are not thoroughly/properly elaborated in public domain (understandable). There is no such thing as a standard stealth design for every developer to emulate *but* select-few rcs reduction PRINCIPLES are important considerations in theory. For instance, shaping should be done in the manner as to deflect radar waves in directions away from the emitter and high quality RAM coatings should be applied to the surface to minimize 'surface reflections' by turning the energy into heat.
> 
> Shaping might be 90% important and materials might be 10% important for rcs reduction in theory, but this isn't true in practice. Below is some revelation:
> 
> _"The F-22's RCS was equated to that of a marble (−40 dBsm) during development, but is rumored to have beaten this figure. The F-35's RCS was originally equated to that of a golf ball (−30 dBsm), but more recently insiders have hinted its RCS might have beaten the F-22 with its superior modeling, stealthier intakes and advanced materials." _- Aviation Week
> 
> Construction secrets HINTED.
> 
> F-35's airframe = 42% of composite fiber mat
> F-22's airframe = 22% of composite fiber mat
> F-16's airframe = 2% of composite fiber mat
> 
> Composite construction is essential to reduce 'mismatches and gaps' that create unwanted radar reflections off the aircraft's body and surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-35's airframe also feature non-perpendicular corners to suppress 'surface reflections'. Lockeed Martin's revolutionary RAM coatings suppress 'surface reflections' even more.
> 
> An important consideration is to limit the number of edges an aircraft has, and to align the existing edges to a small number of directions; parts that stick up with a lot of edges need to be covered by a curved surface. F-35 have blended curves all around accordingly.
> 
> Once again, flat body structure is not necessary, might not be technically feasible based on the type of war-fighting capabilities expected from the finalized product, and neither it will make much difference all on its own. A developer need to factor-in various war-fighting technicalities in order to develop a very capable war-machine within a specified budget. Therefore, developer will have to look for additional ways to ensure VLO output, and this is why true VLO aircraft are very expensive and difficult to design on the whole.
> 
> Design of engine; exhaust structure; exhaust nozzles; avionics; and RAM coatings = every facet will make difference in the end.
> 
> Refer back to my revelations in post # 2410: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...-updates-debate.343466/page-161#post-11536231
> 
> All of it flew over your head, didn't it?
> 
> Chinese LO designs have significant shortcomings which trained eyes can easily notice and pinpoint. FC-31 prototype (31001) is an RC toy in comparison to F-35 in its current form (Block-3f). Provide technical evidence to the contrary, if you can.


I consider this propaganda of USAF/Pentagon/western world @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> I consider this propaganda of USAF/Pentagon/western world @LeGenD


Sure, bro...


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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> Sure, bro...


whatever suit your boat but its not from neutral source @LeGenD , every country pretend/show/present its weapon system best of the best in the world @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> whatever suit your boat but its not from neutral source @LeGenD , every country pretend/show/present its weapon system best of the best in the world @LeGenD


No source is 'neutral' in reality, and your disbelief is irrelevant. I have highlighted numerous VLO-compliant aspects of F-35 in my arguments, and your reaction is plain dismissal (but but flat surface.... ). Therefore, I cannot help you further in developing a better understanding of VLO sciences.

You expect a Chinese source to provide rich insights about VLO characteristics, and output level, of F-35? Best of luck.

Following information is from a Chinese source by the way:






- And this very source admit that F-35 is stealthier than it looks (F-22A range or possibly lower). 

Chinese LO designs? Look around PAK-FA (Chinese language).


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## Ultima Thule

Ok then, might be in future USAF called their upcoming 6th gen fighter jets will have a RCS of microscopic dust grains from all angle @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> Ok then, might be in future USAF called their upcoming 6th gen fighter jets will have a RCS of microscopic dust grains from all angle @LeGenD


This might surprise you but US conceived, developed and fielded extraordinarily advanced and expensive platforms such as B-2 Spirit bomber, TR-3B anti-gravity aircraft and RQ-180 UAV to simulate various aspects of a futuristic combat aircraft over the course of years (road-map set well in advance to achieve a massive leap in war-fighting capabilities at some point). The upcoming B-1 Raider is even more interesting than the already impressive B-2 Spirit, and even the likes of F-22A Raptor and F-35A/B/C are a means to an end. All of these platforms have been fantastic teachers in their respective ways.

B-2 Spirit is VLO across multiple bands (broadband), one of the best VLO designs in existence.

_The only official statement regarding the B-2’s RCS comes from Senate testimony by the Air Force chief of staff in 1990. The service had submitted a brochure that listed the RCS of several birds and insects, the latter of which included examples at 0.001, 0.0001 and 0.000063 m2. Asked where the B-2 fell in the chart, the chief answered, “in the insect category” but declined to specify further. Analysts have since assessed the B-2 in the 0.001-0.0001 (-30 to -40-dBsm) range. But by the late 1990s, program officials were hinting that RAM improvements had driven the RCS smaller, and the trend would continue._ - Aviation Week

To date, B-2 Spirit is *the* most frustrating aircraft to notice and obtain a lock upon in existence even in the face of massive advances in the domain of radar systems over the course of years. Its relatively much lesser known cousins in TR-3B and RQ-180 might be equally or even harder to defeat but these are essentially GHOST platforms (lack of advertisement in public domain; classified missions).

Information in relation to VLO sciences is understandably very limited in public domain, but if you know which sources to tap, then you can piece together interesting bits of information to achieve a better understanding of this game.

_Edge Treatments, Silver Paint and S-Curves The next stealth aircraft, Northrop Grumman’s B-2, was said to rely more on shape and less on RAM than the F-117. Since the stealth fighter’s fully faceted shape dealt well with specular reflections, this likely referred to surface-wave suppression. With upper and lower surfaces composed entirely of curves, the stealth bomber’s shape has no discontinuities to create strong surface waves except for the edges of the aircraft. But engineers now had a fix for this edge issue. Beginning with the B-2, all U.S. stealth aircraft have sported a distinctive “edge treatment,” visible as a different-colored band around the perimeter of the airframe. Theory suggests what lies beneath. Within the triangular wedge is a lightweight material, such as glass-fiber honeycomb, loaded with carbon in a concentration that increases from tip to base. Impedance therefore decreases from air at the tip to zero at the conductive surface behind it. This allows surface currents to transition slowly rather than abruptly, as well as be absorbed. This arrangement suppresses three contributors to RCS: edge waves by slowing surface current transitions; traveling waves by absorbing the currents; and edge diffraction by absorbing incident radar waves. RCS drops significantly from every angle and particularly at off-normal angles. The B-2 has considerable depth for an effective absorber made of dielectric materials alone but reports also indicate the incorporation of a magnetic material for better VHF-band absorption. To enhance taper and minimize diffraction, the conductive surface beneath may also slowly transition into a narrow wedge. While edge treatments can absorb surface currents, those currents have to reach the edges and any surface discontinuity can prevent that. The B-2 airframe used as few panels as possible to minimize gaps, but channels around doors and access panels were inevitable. Radar energy can even induce surface currents in the doors and panels themselves and, if those currents encounter discontinuities, they emit strong edge and traveling waves because the features have small dimensions. Therefore, those gaps must be bridged with conductive caulks or tapes. Around 3,000 ft. of tape was originally required for each aircraft. In addition, the B-2’s coating included a silver paint. The effect of a discontinuity depends on its size and the conductivity of its sides. Silver is the most conductive metal, so its application might minimize the effect of gaps while also absorbing currents and blocking radar penetration. To suppress engine returns, the B-2 used a serpentine duct lined with RAM. Both shape and material are vital to this RCS reduction technique. The RAM is thin, but the inlet’s curve causes waves to bounce so many times the absorption adds up. Compared to a notional straight duct, an untreated serpentine inlet might achieve a reduction of 30 dB at boresight, but the advantage is zero outside 5 deg. off centerline. Add RAM, and RCS drops another 30 dB at boresight and stays 30-40 dB below unlined ducts, straight or curved, past 10 deg. Changes to the B-2’s RAM scheme since the 1990s have focused on reducing the maintenance burden, as well as RCS. Better tapes were introduced along with stronger caulks with shorter curing times. In 2003-10, B-2s also received the Advanced High- Frequency Material: a magnetic RAM robotically applied to access panels to reduce time required to restore stealth after routine maintenance. Flexible “blade seals” became the conductive bridge for some panels and certain gaps were surrounded with narrow bands of magnetic RAM called “picture frames.” The F-22 continued use of many RCS reduction techniques from the B-2. Its shape is composed of blended facets to minimize surface waves. Edge treatment is evident around wings, control surfaces and engine inlets. The intakes are S-curved and RAM-coated. Magnetic RAM is also used on certain panels and conductive techniques bridge impedance gaps. The “Magic” Layer and the Future of RAM The low-observable materials developed for the B-2 and F-22 kept RCS small, but their maintenance burdens proved heavy. Their durability disappointed, necessitating frequent replacements that ballooned support costs and time while restricting aircraft availability. RAM fillers tend to be spherical, a few to tens of micrometers in size and densely packed, which is good for absorptive qualities but bad for durability. Bonding them to aircraft surfaces also proved troublesome. So, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs. Use of several RAM techniques continued, including S-curved, RAM-lined ducts, edge treatments and what appear to be picture frames abutting many gaps. Early reports also indicated the number of parts making up the skin would be minimized and laser-alignment would fit pieces so precisely “that 99% of maintenance requires no restoration of low-observable surfaces,” Lockheed says. The goal was likely to make the intensive gap-bridging procedures unnecessary. But during development, something happened. First, program officials began hinting the F-35 might be stealthier than the F-22; hard to believe, given its less-disciplined shape. Then officials started referring to a material secret, a “conductive layer . . . where the magic happens.” In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the “biggest technical breakthrough we’ve had on this program.” The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave”— which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary. Lockheed declined to provide further details, citing classification. Without further evidence, fiber mat would imply use of fibers, rather than particles, which would make for stronger surfaces and the word “conductive” points to carbon-based RAM. But only a month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal—with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, number of walls, connectivity and even orientation. The CNT-infused fibers can absorb or reflect radar, and connectivity among the CNTs provides pathways for induced currents. Significantly, the CNTs can be impregnated with iron or ferrite nanoparticles. Fibers can have differing CNT densities along their lengths and homogenous fibers can be layered or mixed. The embodiments described include front layers with impedance matching air, use of quarter-wavelength depths for cancellation, stepped or continuous CNT-density gradients and continuously varying densities at specific depths for broadband absorption. The fibers can be disposed with “random orientation” in materials including “a woven fabric, a non-woven fiber mat and a fiber ply.” The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz, a bandwidth unheard of in commercial absorbers, with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver. While the patent mentions stealth aircraft, it does not mention the F-35 specifically, and the manufacturing readiness level of the material at the time it was granted is not known. But the proximity in timing and technology of the filing to the “fiber mat” disclosure is hard to ignore. Asked to comment on whether CNT-infused fiber RAM is in use on the F-35 and whether it is the technology to which Burbage had referred, Lockheed Martin spokesman Mike Rein stated only, “We have nothing to add to what was outlined in the patent submittal.” Even if CNT-infused fibers are not the F-35’s “magic” layer, they may represent the new state-of-the-art in RAM. And while this may be the biggest development in the technology, it is not the only one. New materials are being tested all the time. In particular, metamaterials which use sub-wavelength geometric structures to impart qualities that do not exist in nature have received particular attention for their stealth applications. The future of stealth may be inseparable from the future of RAM._ - Aviation Week



The upcoming B-21 Raider is hinted to achieve 0.000001 m^2 rcs mark (equal to mosquito), a functioning prototype will be unveiled soon but will not receive much publicity due to sensitivity factor. B-21 Raider is also American-exclusive platform.

There is another - a major leap from F-22A Raptor.

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> This might surprise you but US conceived, developed and fielded extraordinarily advanced and expensive platforms such as B-2 Spirit bomber, TR-3B anti-gravity aircraft and RQ-180 UAV to simulate various aspects of a futuristic combat aircraft over the course of years (road-map set well in advance to achieve a massive leap in war-fighting capabilities at some point). The upcoming B-1 Raider is even more interesting than the already impressive B-2 Spirit, and even the likes of F-22A Raptor and F-35A/B/C are a means to an end. All of these platforms have been fantastic teachers in their respective ways.
> 
> B-2 Spirit is VLO across multiple bands (broadband), one of the best VLO designs in existence.
> 
> _The only official statement regarding the B-2’s RCS comes from Senate testimony by the Air Force chief of staff in 1990. The service had submitted a brochure that listed the RCS of several birds and insects, the latter of which included examples at 0.001, 0.0001 and 0.000063 m2. Asked where the B-2 fell in the chart, the chief answered, “in the insect category” but declined to specify further. Analysts have since assessed the B-2 in the 0.001-0.0001 (-30 to -40-dBsm) range. But by the late 1990s, program officials were hinting that RAM improvements had driven the RCS smaller, and the trend would continue._ - Aviation Week
> 
> To date, B-2 Spirit is *the* most frustrating aircraft to notice and obtain a lock upon in existence even in the face of massive advances in the domain of radar systems over the course of years. Its relatively much lesser known cousins in TR-3B and RQ-180 might be equally or even harder to defeat but these are essentially GHOST platforms (lack of advertisement in public domain; classified missions).
> 
> Information in relation to VLO sciences is understandably very limited in public domain, but if you know which sources to tap, then you can piece together interesting bits of information to achieve a better understanding of this game.
> 
> _Edge Treatments, Silver Paint and S-Curves The next stealth aircraft, Northrop Grumman’s B-2, was said to rely more on shape and less on RAM than the F-117. Since the stealth fighter’s fully faceted shape dealt well with specular reflections, this likely referred to surface-wave suppression. With upper and lower surfaces composed entirely of curves, the stealth bomber’s shape has no discontinuities to create strong surface waves except for the edges of the aircraft. But engineers now had a fix for this edge issue. Beginning with the B-2, all U.S. stealth aircraft have sported a distinctive “edge treatment,” visible as a different-colored band around the perimeter of the airframe. Theory suggests what lies beneath. Within the triangular wedge is a lightweight material, such as glass-fiber honeycomb, loaded with carbon in a concentration that increases from tip to base. Impedance therefore decreases from air at the tip to zero at the conductive surface behind it. This allows surface currents to transition slowly rather than abruptly, as well as be absorbed. This arrangement suppresses three contributors to RCS: edge waves by slowing surface current transitions; traveling waves by absorbing the currents; and edge diffraction by absorbing incident radar waves. RCS drops significantly from every angle and particularly at off-normal angles. The B-2 has considerable depth for an effective absorber made of dielectric materials alone but reports also indicate the incorporation of a magnetic material for better VHF-band absorption. To enhance taper and minimize diffraction, the conductive surface beneath may also slowly transition into a narrow wedge. While edge treatments can absorb surface currents, those currents have to reach the edges and any surface discontinuity can prevent that. The B-2 airframe used as few panels as possible to minimize gaps, but channels around doors and access panels were inevitable. Radar energy can even induce surface currents in the doors and panels themselves and, if those currents encounter discontinuities, they emit strong edge and traveling waves because the features have small dimensions. Therefore, those gaps must be bridged with conductive caulks or tapes. Around 3,000 ft. of tape was originally required for each aircraft. In addition, the B-2’s coating included a silver paint. The effect of a discontinuity depends on its size and the conductivity of its sides. Silver is the most conductive metal, so its application might minimize the effect of gaps while also absorbing currents and blocking radar penetration. To suppress engine returns, the B-2 used a serpentine duct lined with RAM. Both shape and material are vital to this RCS reduction technique. The RAM is thin, but the inlet’s curve causes waves to bounce so many times the absorption adds up. Compared to a notional straight duct, an untreated serpentine inlet might achieve a reduction of 30 dB at boresight, but the advantage is zero outside 5 deg. off centerline. Add RAM, and RCS drops another 30 dB at boresight and stays 30-40 dB below unlined ducts, straight or curved, past 10 deg. Changes to the B-2’s RAM scheme since the 1990s have focused on reducing the maintenance burden, as well as RCS. Better tapes were introduced along with stronger caulks with shorter curing times. In 2003-10, B-2s also received the Advanced High- Frequency Material: a magnetic RAM robotically applied to access panels to reduce time required to restore stealth after routine maintenance. Flexible “blade seals” became the conductive bridge for some panels and certain gaps were surrounded with narrow bands of magnetic RAM called “picture frames.” The F-22 continued use of many RCS reduction techniques from the B-2. Its shape is composed of blended facets to minimize surface waves. Edge treatment is evident around wings, control surfaces and engine inlets. The intakes are S-curved and RAM-coated. Magnetic RAM is also used on certain panels and conductive techniques bridge impedance gaps. The “Magic” Layer and the Future of RAM The low-observable materials developed for the B-2 and F-22 kept RCS small, but their maintenance burdens proved heavy. Their durability disappointed, necessitating frequent replacements that ballooned support costs and time while restricting aircraft availability. RAM fillers tend to be spherical, a few to tens of micrometers in size and densely packed, which is good for absorptive qualities but bad for durability. Bonding them to aircraft surfaces also proved troublesome. So, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs. Use of several RAM techniques continued, including S-curved, RAM-lined ducts, edge treatments and what appear to be picture frames abutting many gaps. Early reports also indicated the number of parts making up the skin would be minimized and laser-alignment would fit pieces so precisely “that 99% of maintenance requires no restoration of low-observable surfaces,” Lockheed says. The goal was likely to make the intensive gap-bridging procedures unnecessary. But during development, something happened. First, program officials began hinting the F-35 might be stealthier than the F-22; hard to believe, given its less-disciplined shape. Then officials started referring to a material secret, a “conductive layer . . . where the magic happens.” In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the “biggest technical breakthrough we’ve had on this program.” The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave”— which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary. Lockheed declined to provide further details, citing classification. Without further evidence, fiber mat would imply use of fibers, rather than particles, which would make for stronger surfaces and the word “conductive” points to carbon-based RAM. But only a month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal—with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, number of walls, connectivity and even orientation. The CNT-infused fibers can absorb or reflect radar, and connectivity among the CNTs provides pathways for induced currents. Significantly, the CNTs can be impregnated with iron or ferrite nanoparticles. Fibers can have differing CNT densities along their lengths and homogenous fibers can be layered or mixed. The embodiments described include front layers with impedance matching air, use of quarter-wavelength depths for cancellation, stepped or continuous CNT-density gradients and continuously varying densities at specific depths for broadband absorption. The fibers can be disposed with “random orientation” in materials including “a woven fabric, a non-woven fiber mat and a fiber ply.” The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz, a bandwidth unheard of in commercial absorbers, with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver. While the patent mentions stealth aircraft, it does not mention the F-35 specifically, and the manufacturing readiness level of the material at the time it was granted is not known. But the proximity in timing and technology of the filing to the “fiber mat” disclosure is hard to ignore. Asked to comment on whether CNT-infused fiber RAM is in use on the F-35 and whether it is the technology to which Burbage had referred, Lockheed Martin spokesman Mike Rein stated only, “We have nothing to add to what was outlined in the patent submittal.” Even if CNT-infused fibers are not the F-35’s “magic” layer, they may represent the new state-of-the-art in RAM. And while this may be the biggest development in the technology, it is not the only one. New materials are being tested all the time. In particular, metamaterials which use sub-wavelength geometric structures to impart qualities that do not exist in nature have received particular attention for their stealth applications. The future of stealth may be inseparable from the future of RAM._ - Aviation Week
> 
> 
> 
> The upcoming B-21 Raider is hinted to achieve 0.000001 m^2 rcs mark (equal to mosquito), a functioning prototype will be unveiled soon but will not receive much publicity due to sensitivity factor. B-21 Raider is also American-exclusive platform.


ok ok, why not USA didn't try Plasma sh!t Stealth to achieve total stealth or invisible to all electromagnetic radiation mosquito is like a elephant or whale on current modern LF/VLF anti stealth radars @LeGenD


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## LeGenD

pakistanipower said:


> ok ok, why not USA didn't try Plasma sh!t Stealth to achieve total stealth or invisible to all electromagnetic radiation mosquito is like a elephant or whale on current modern LF/VLF anti stealth radars @LeGenD


One of these supposedly anti-stealth radar systems YJ-20 while deployed in Syria:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087795248762441728
This was the work of an F-35 operating in VLO mode, a few months ago. Oops...

Dude, if you think that I am exchanging jokes with you, then you are sadly mistaken. Time to wake-up.

Keep in mind that [they] blinded our defenses on the night of May 2, 2011, for the needful. VLO sciences in general, and American conventional war-fighting capabilities at large, are serious business. In fact, a Chinese naval officer admitted that they are like 3 generations behind US in cutting-edge. Have a nice day.

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## Ultima Thule

LeGenD said:


> One of these supposedly anti-stealth radar systems YJ-20 while deployed in Syria:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087795248762441728
> This was the work of an F-35 operating in VLO mode, a few months ago. Oops...
> 
> Dude, if you think that I am exchanging jokes with you, then you are sadly mistaken. Time to wake-up.
> 
> Keep in mind that [they] blinded our defenses on the night of May 2, 2011, for the needful. VLO sciences in general, and American conventional war-fighting capabilities at large, are serious business. In fact, a Chinese naval officer admitted that they are like 3 generations behind US in cutting-edge. Have a nice day.


Ok @LeGenD


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## Type59

LeGenD said:


> One of these supposedly anti-stealth radar systems YJ-20 while deployed in Syria:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087795248762441728
> This was the work of an F-35 operating in VLO mode, a few months ago. Oops...
> 
> Dude, if you think that I am exchanging jokes with you, then you are sadly mistaken. Time to wake-up.
> 
> Keep in mind that [they] blinded our defenses on the night of May 2, 2011, for the needful. VLO sciences in general, and American conventional war-fighting capabilities at large, are serious business. In fact, a Chinese naval officer admitted that they are like 3 generations behind US in cutting-edge. Have a nice day.



Does not prove anything. A surveillance radar can see a flying object but cant shoot it down.


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## LeGenD

Type59 said:


> Does not prove anything. A surveillance radar can see a flying object but cant shoot it down.


I only highlighted a part of the show.

Full story in this link: https://www.thetribunepapers.com/20...sraeli-strike-destroys-air-defenses-in-syria/


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## Deino

*Can we please come back to the FC-31 and an eventual PAF deal?*

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## thepakistani

https://www.thedailybeast.com/phenomenal americano technology 

america-is-stuck-with-a-dollar400-billion-stealth-fighter-that-cant-fight


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## Myth_buster_1

LeGenD said:


> One of these supposedly anti-stealth radar systems YJ-20 while deployed in Syria:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087795248762441728
> This was the work of an F-35 operating in VLO mode, a few months ago. Oops...
> 
> Dude, if you think that I am exchanging jokes with you, then you are sadly mistaken. Time to wake-up.
> 
> Keep in mind that [they] blinded our defenses on the night of May 2, 2011, for the needful. VLO sciences in general, and American conventional war-fighting capabilities at large, are serious business. In fact, a Chinese naval officer admitted that they are like 3 generations behind US in cutting-edge. Have a nice day.



US had better intelligence, training, and equipment so even B-2 in Syrian air force's hands is like an AK in monkey's hands.

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## gambit

pakistanipower said:


> and what about lots of bumps on F-35 fuselage they should increase RCS from all angle,...


Not necessarily...

https://science.howstuffworks.com/stealth-bomber4.htm


> ... if you tilt the mirror 45 degrees, it will reflect your image straight upward. You won't see yourself; you'll see an image of the ceiling. A curved mirror also deflects light at an angle. If you were to *aim a laser pointer at a curved mirror, the laser beam would never bounce straight back to the pointer, no matter how you positioned it.*
> 
> ...every surface is curved in order to deflect radio waves. The *curves are designed to bounce almost all radio waves away at an angle.*


Curvatures induces a set of different wave behaviors from flat surfaces.

Early derision -- especially from Air Power Australia -- regarding the F-35's bumps were idiotic.

These behaviors are what curvatures produces...







In many ways, the shaping on the F-35 is more advanced than the F-22 in the sense that the F-35 is multi-roles and such an airframe demands compromises, and that the F-35's speculative RCS is near F-22 level is testament to the attention to details of shaping of those curves to control radiation behaviors.



thepakistani said:


> https://www.thedailybeast.com/phenomenal americano technology
> 
> america-is-stuck-with-a-dollar400-billion-stealth-fighter-that-cant-fight


Pierre Sprey -- Is that you?

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## aliaselin

LeGenD said:


> No source is 'neutral' in reality, and your disbelief is irrelevant. I have highlighted numerous VLO-compliant aspects of F-35 in my arguments, and your reaction is plain dismissal (but but flat surface.... ). Therefore, I cannot help you further in developing a better understanding of VLO sciences.
> 
> You expect a Chinese source to provide rich insights about VLO characteristics, and output level, of F-35? Best of luck.
> 
> Following information is from a Chinese source by the way:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - And this very source admit that F-35 is stealthier than it looks (F-22A range or possibly lower).
> 
> Chinese LO designs? Look around PAK-FA (Chinese language).


You take Japanese for Chinese? Intentionally to cheat people who do not understand Chinese?

@pakistanipower You are cheated by him

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## mingle

Myth_buster_1 said:


> US had better intelligence, training, and equipment so even B-2 in Syrian air force's hands is like an AK in monkey's hands.


Issue with Syria is they don't have viable airforce best air defence is fighter jet not missile.


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## jaybird

pakistanipower said:


> ok ok, why not USA didn't try Plasma sh!t Stealth to achieve total stealth or invisible to all electromagnetic radiation mosquito is like a elephant or whale on current modern LF/VLF anti stealth radars @LeGenD



The RCS chart posted by LeGenD is not from Chinese source. It's Japanese source. Those are not Chinese words.

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## GriffinsRule

jaybird said:


> The RCS chart posted by LeGenD is not from Chinese source. It's Japanese source. Those are not Chinese words.


That is ok, doesnt mean its not credible

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## jaybird

GriffinsRule said:


> That is ok, doesnt mean its not credible



Credible or not is another question. But it's false claim. Do you think is okay to post something from Indian source and then claim is from Pakistan source as prove of something when debating with someone?

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## GriffinsRule

jaybird said:


> Credible or not is another question. But it's false claim. Do you think is okay to post something from Indian source and then claim is from Pakistan source as prove of something when debating with someone?


Id give him the benefit of the doubt. Most cant tell the difference between Chinese, Korean or Japanese. Can you tell the difference between Farsi, Urdu or Arabic?

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## jaybird

GriffinsRule said:


> Id give him the benefit of the doubt. Most cant tell the difference between Chinese, Korean or Japanese. Can you tell the difference between Farsi, Urdu or Arabic?



I can not. That's why I will not use something I don't understand as facts to debate with someone else as prove to mislead.

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## LeGenD

aliaselin said:


> You take Japanese for Chinese? Intentionally to cheat people who do not understand Chinese?
> 
> @pakistanipower You are cheated by him


My bad, thanks for pointing out. I am not a linguist.

He was talking about the neutrality aspect of sources so I gave him the benefit of doubt. Japanese or Chinese, is not my chief concern, but truthfulness is. Japanese are honest and professional people on average so no worries.

I have access to the actual source of that image, and it is very well-researched compilation of information on the whole with numerous references; details which are not common knowledge.

Your unusually harsh reaction B/W I am doing something right here, busting some of the prevalent misconceptions that is....



jaybird said:


> I can not. That's why I will not use something I don't understand as facts to debate with someone else as prove to mislead.


Don't care about your butt-hurt.

Here is the harsh truth: FC-31 is an underdeveloped fraud... a work of cosmetics to attract less informed potential customers...

There, I said it.


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## jaybird

LeGenD said:


> My bad, thanks for pointing out. I am not a linguist.
> 
> He was talking about the neutrality aspect of sources so I gave him the benefit of doubt. Japanese or Chinese, is not my chief concern, but truthfulness is. Japanese are honest and professional people on average so no worries.
> 
> I have access to the actual source of that image, and it is very well-researched compilation of information on the whole with numerous references; details which are not common knowledge.
> 
> Your unusually harsh reaction B/W I am doing something right here, busting some of the prevalent misconceptions that is....
> 
> 
> Don't care about your butt-hurt.
> 
> Here is the harsh truth: FC-31 is an underdeveloped fraud... a work of cosmetics to attract less informed potential customers...
> 
> There, I said it.



All I did was Simply pointing out the fact that you mislead another poster with your chart's origin as Chinese source instead of Japanese source. I never said you were intentional or it was just a mistake.

I have no problem with you saying FC-31 as an underdeveloped fraud project. You have every right to express your own opinion. There.... there.... feeling better now? Have a nice day.

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> *Can we please come back to the FC-31 and an eventual PAF deal?*


Yes, it appears that topic has shifted from the FC-31/J-31 to (whatever)...

However, its difficult to discuss an (eventual) deal - if there is no Fighter available. The FC-31 is still undergoing Tests & at the moment Turkey seems more interested in it than Pakistan.

Now obviously the PAF have more insight about when the Aircraft will be ready for trials, but also appears Pakistan is now leaning towards the Su-35 (not MiG-35) as I've picked up on a couple of websites.

Now all I've mentioned about the sudden shift from China to Russia is an entirely different topic. I would, however, like to stay on Topic question on how much longer do (potential) customers of the FC-31 have to wait before the project is given the green light for Trials by Nations.

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## MastanKhan

jaybird said:


> I have no problem with you saying FC-31 as an underdeveloped fraud project. You have every right to express your own opinion. There.... there.... feeling better now? Have a nice day.



Hi,

J-31 is not an underdeveloped fraud project---.

Pakistan's project director AVM r Shahid Latif stated in his interview that if the americans saw any copies of F16 on the JF17---he would pay dearly for that---.

AVM Latif was a top tier F16 fighter pilot---. The compromises made on the JF17 was for that reason---it would have beeen a true copy of the F16 other than the intake on the belly---.

Similarly with the J31---there is no doubt that the chinese stole all the designs of the F35---but when it came to building a true copy---the threat from the US was very obvious---"make a true copy at your peril"----. The consequences were too high for china---.

Now---could pakistan build a true physical copy of F35---absolutely---maybe not as capable---but they will---that is why project AZM---.

The J31 may definitley not be as capable as the F35---but it would still be ahead of most of the 4.5 gen aircraft


Trailer23 said:


> Yes, it appears that topic has shifted from the FC-31/J-31 to (whatever)...
> 
> However, its difficult to discuss an (eventual) deal - if there is no Fighter available. The FC-31 is still undergoing Tests & at the moment Turkey seems more interested in it than Pakistan.
> 
> Now obviously the PAF have more insight about when the Aircraft will be ready for trials, but also appears Pakistan is now leaning towards the Su-35 (not MiG-35) as I've picked up on a couple of websites.
> 
> Now all I've mentioned about the sudden shift from China to Russia is an entirely different topic. I would, however, like to stay on Topic question on how much longer do (potential) customers of the FC-31 have to wait before the project is given the green light for Trials by Nations.



Hi,

Readers should rest assured that if Paf goes for the J31---it will get all those bumps and curves that are needed for stealth---.

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## Falcon26

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J-31 is not an underdeveloped fraud project---.
> 
> Pakistan's project director AVM r Shahid Latif stated in his interview that if the americans saw any copies of F16 on the JF17---he would pay dearly for that---.
> 
> AVM Latif was a top tier F16 fighter pilot---. The compromises made on the JF17 was for that reason---it would have beeen a true copy of the F16 other than the intake on the belly---.
> 
> Similarly with the J31---there is no doubt that the chinese stole all the designs of the F35---but when it came to building a true copy---the threat from the US was very obvious---"make a true copy at your peril"----. The consequences were too high for china---.
> 
> Now---could pakistan build a true physical copy of F35---absolutely---maybe not as capable---but they will---that is why project AZM---.
> 
> The J31 may definitley not be as capable as the F35---but it would still be ahead of most of the 4.5 gen aircraft
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Readers should rest assured that if Paf goes for the J31---it will get all those bumps and curves that are needed for stealth---.



If PAF’s objective was to build an F-16 copy, it would have settled for the J-10 which in essence is the Israeli Lavi- a copy of the F-16. But PAF did not and even today isn’t interested in the J-10. People, especially you, have criticized PAF’s procurement strategy but the events of Feb 27th have vindicated PAF’s strategic thinking. Simply buying expensive and flashy equipment won’t cut it. Procured assets have to serve tactical & strategic purpose. JF-17 and F-16 datelines with Falcon-20 & Erieyes neutralized IAF entire fleet and compelled the much vaunted SU-30MKI to run for dear life (even by Indian admission) 

We need to give credit where credit is due

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## MastanKhan

Falcon26 said:


> If PAF’s objective was to build an F-16 copy, it would have settled for the J-10 which in essence is the Israeli Lavi- a copy of the F-16. But PAF did not and even today isn’t interested in the J-10. People, especially you, have criticized PAF’s procurement strategy but the events of Feb 27th have vindicated PAF’s strategic thinking. Simply buying expensive and flashy equipment won’t cut it. Procured assets have to serve tactical & strategic purpose. JF-17 and F-16 datelines with Falcon-20 & Erieyes neutralized IAF entire fleet and compelled the much vaunted SU-30MKI to run for dear life (even by Indian admission)
> 
> We need to give credit where credit is due



Hi,

Paf does not like those winglets on the J10.

The reason for not going for the J10 was nt technical but rathe for the reason that an army general wanted to force it upon them---ie Gen Mush---& when people found out that the J10 is superior to JF17---the goose that laid the golden egg ( JF17 ) would die---.

The F16 / JF17 didn't neuter the whole fleet---the Paf gave away its secrets for a minor circumstantial show off gain---the price it would pay for the security of pakistan's skies would be very heavy---.


----------



## Falcon26

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf does not like those winglets on the J10.
> 
> The reason for not going for the J10 was nt technical but rathe for the reason that an army general wanted to force it upon them---ie Gen Mush---& when people found out that the J10 is superior to JF17---the goose that laid the golden egg ( JF17 ) would die---.
> 
> The F16 / JF17 didn't neuter the whole fleet---the Paf gave away its secrets for a minor circumstantial show off gain---the price it would pay for the security of pakistan's skies would be very heavy---.



You are not an objective critic of the PAF, and so you shouldn’t try to pass off your judgements as some sort of honest critique. Your problem with the PAF is very personal and while we are in no position to tell you what and how you think of the PAF (or any organization, for that matter) it’s important to understand that your opinions aren’t based on any facts. In fact, you should preface your posts with the disclaimer that your opinions are based on personal history/grudge against the PAF.

The PAF hit India hard and comprehensively and sent them a very strong message to the point that the leadership in New Delhi quickly and dramatically came to the realization that its Air Force wasn’t up to the task to face Pakistan; hence the missile threats which were ultimately found to be suicidal. The job of any Air Force is to act as a deterrence against aggression. It’s not in the business to send calibrated posturing. At any rate, Pakistan’s military leadership even before PAF’s retaliation stated clearly that Pakistan was going to dominate the escalation ladder. The PAF acted with this overarching reality in mind. Everyone understood that PAF/Pakistan was going to come down hard on India. There was no question of subtle retaliation and the PAF did so in a remarkable and an unambiguous manner. Its neutralization of the much better funded and larger IAF was admitted even by Pakistan’s most staunch haters and critics.

It’s these sorts of bold and fatal blows that prevent future wars. Not the silly hide and seek games you suggest. If India revises its tactics as a result of the feb 27th skirmishes, you can be rest assured that PAF won’t be sitting idle. But you are free to project your personal grudges.

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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> Paf does not like those winglets on the J10.


What you talking about, J-10 has a winglets, do you know what are the winglets are @MastanKhan


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## Keysersoze

MastanKhan said:


> The F16 / JF17 didn't neuter the whole fleet---the Paf gave away its secrets for a minor circumstantial show off gain---the price it would pay for the security of pakistan's skies would be very heavy---.


Actually no They have given the enemy pause. What they thought was a walkover backfired. Now they are bleating about Rafales being needed. That has given a few years breathing room for the PAF.

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## MastanKhan

Keysersoze said:


> Actually no They have given the enemy pause. What they thought was a walkover backfired. Now they are bleating about Rafales being needed. That has given a few years breathing room for the PAF.



Hi,

That is incorrect---. They---paf---have given the enemies their secrets---.

They have also opened the door for india to get what was not available before---.

Now indian air force may become the test ground for some seriously capable weapons of some sellers


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## Keysersoze

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is incorrect---. They---paf---have given the enemies their secrets---.
> 
> They have also opened the door for india to get what was not available before---.
> 
> Now indian air force may become the test ground for some seriously capable weapons of some sellers


I suggest you read these thoughts of yours out aloud before typing.

Should they have done nothing so secrets would be kept? That's frankly stupid.

A weapon unused is a useless weapon. Tactics evolve and change regularly. The IAF has always been a test ground for serious sellers I mean they have been courted for a decade around the MRCA deal before economic realities hit.

Now they won't try any "surgical strikes" without remembering their pilot getting a shoe in the face.

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## MastanKhan

Keysersoze said:


> I suggest you read these thoughts of yours out aloud before typing.
> 
> Should they have done nothing so secrets would be kept? That's frankly stupid.
> 
> A weapon unused is a useless weapon. Tactics evolve and change regularly. The IAF has always been a test ground for serious sellers I mean they have been courted for a decade around the MRCA deal before economic realities hit.
> 
> Now they won't try any "surgical strikes" without remembering their pilot getting a shoe in the face.



Hi,

Thy should have been prepared to counter the enemy the first night of incursion---.

The enemy had already announced its intention of invasion---.

Paf goes ahead makes the strike on the 27th---but then it does an incomplete job---of letting multiple enemy aircraft escape---even though it had prepared for the strike---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thy should have been prepared to counter the enemy the first night of incursion---.
> 
> The enemy had already announced its intention of invasion---.
> 
> Paf goes ahead makes the strike on the 27th---but then it does an incomplete job---of letting multiple enemy aircraft escape---even though it had prepared for the strike---.



So you are suggesting that after the PAF let the IAF fighters get away scot-free after their botched bombing run, we should not have retaliated as to keep our capabilities hidden?

Can you use your expertise to tell us the repercussions of not doing anything would have been?

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> So you are suggesting that after the PAF let the IAF fighters get away scot-free after their botched bombing run, we should not have retaliated as to keep our capabilities hidden?
> 
> Can you use your expertise to tell us the repercussions of not doing anything would have been?



Hi,

What I stated was that Paf was not ready to take on the enemy---even though the enemy had declared intent of war---.

The areas of incursion were known in advance---yet Paf was satisfied with a late reaction to just shoo them off so no confrontation takes place---.

In the day & date of modern weapons---Paf's mindset was still of 50 years old---. Nowadays enemy air strike force can decimate targets in pakistan from a range of over 100 miles---so that becomes the threat zone and not the LOC---and that is when the enemy has already declared an " intent of war ".

If there is " no intent of war " declared---then normal boundary lines are fine---but when " military action " is declared---then any enemy aircraft taking off from their fields and coming towards you are bringing a threat of war to you---and then you must do what the Israelis do---.

The issue over here is when the decision was made to go in on the 27th on our terms and condition---then all enemy aircraft targetted should have been decimated with asking FOR SECONDARY permission from HQ---.

That permission should have been granted in advance---knowing very well that we will expose our technical & tactical assets---so our strike shouLD be the STRIKE OF THE HAMMER OF THOR.


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What I stated was that Paf was not ready to take on the enemy---even though the enemy had declared intent of war---.
> 
> The areas of incursion were known in advance---yet Paf was satisfied with a late reaction to just shoo them off so no confrontation takes place---.
> 
> In the day & date of modern weapons---Paf's mindset was still of 50 years old---. Nowadays enemy air strike force can decimate targets in pakistan from a range of over 100 miles---so that becomes the threat zone and not the LOC---and that is when the enemy has already declared an " intent of war ".
> 
> If there is " no intent of war " declared---then normal boundary lines are fine---but when " military action " is declared---then any enemy aircraft taking off from their fields and coming towards you are bringing a threat of war to you---and then you must do what the Israelis do---.
> 
> The issue over here is when the decision was made to go in on the 27th on our terms and condition---then all enemy aircraft targetted should have been decimated with asking FOR SECONDARY permission from HQ---.
> 
> That permission should have been granted in advance---knowing very well that we will expose our technical & tactical assets---so our strike shouLD be the STRIKE OF THE HAMMER OF THOR.



I am not going to argue regarding what they should have done to pre-empt the IAF strike in the first place or to shoot the intruding aircraft.

I am actually asking about your assertion that PAF disclosed their tactics somehow to IAF in their response to their strikes in KPK. You have raised this point multiple times and that is what I want to understand from your point of view about these secret capabilities that PAF has.

How would, PAF having decimated their ground targets, in anyways preclude IAF from knowing about whatever tactics we used vs not destroying their ground targets and just send a message.

And the second part of my question relates to above on the repercussions side. Can you tell me what those would have been (keeping in mind the sole purpose of this is not divulging our secret tactics to the enemy)? Would you go for no response post-Balakot (already a no from you), destroy all 4 targets (your favored response but still divulges all our tactics) or go in half-cocked and maybe lose a couple of aircraft since you didn't bring in any supporting elements to the fight?

Mind you, IAF has access to all technologies we do as well as training opportunities in Europe, Asia and America and they have actively participated in all these exercises that Pakistan has more or less to learn how to manage a battle space and employ your assets. If they didnt, it is by no means a lack of understanding but just incompetence of the leadership (which was let go) and that is not something PAF would bank on anyways. We would expect to prepare and train for an enemy just as capable, if not more, than us.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> I am not going to argue regarding what they should have done to pre-empt the IAF strike in the first place or to shoot the intruding aircraft.
> 
> I am actually asking about your assertion that PAF disclosed their tactics somehow to IAF in their response to their strikes in KPK. You have raised this point multiple times and that is what I want to understand from your point of view about these secret capabilities that PAF has.
> 
> How would, PAF having decimated their ground targets, in anyways preclude IAF from knowing about whatever tactics we used vs not destroying their ground targets and just send a message.
> 
> And the second part of my question relates to above on the repercussions side. Can you tell me what those would have been (keeping in mind the sole purpose of this is not divulging our secret tactics to the enemy)? Would you go for no response post-Balakot (already a no from you), destroy all 4 targets (your favored response but still divulges all our tactics) or go in half-cocked and maybe lose a couple of aircraft since you didn't bring in any supporting elements to the fight?
> 
> Mind you, IAF has access to all technologies we do as well as training opportunities in Europe, Asia and America and they have actively participated in all these exercises that Pakistan has more or less to learn how to manage a battle space and employ your assets. If they didnt, it is by no means a lack of understanding but just incompetence of the leadership (which was let go) and that is not something PAF would bank on anyways. We would expect to prepare and train for an enemy just as capable, if not more, than us.



Hi,

I am not talking about the ground assets---I was addressing the enemy air assets---. Thank you.


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not talking about the ground assets---I was addressing the enemy air assets---. Thank you.



Are you trying to skirt the issue? You have been raising a point on us giving away our tactics over and over again (A-A ones sure). I am asking you in very plain terms so there is no misunderstanding now, explain under what scenario would that not have happened post-Balakot strikes.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Are you trying to skirt the issue? You have been raising a point on us giving away our tactics over and over again (A-A ones sure). I am asking you in very plain terms so there is no misunderstanding now, explain under what scenario would that not have happened post-Balakot strikes.



Hi,

I have already answered---. If you are not capable of understanding---and this is not the first time---then it is not my problem---. 

I have very clearly stated my point---.


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## Flight of falcon

Mastan Khan where do you come up with these bizarre sequence of events. You claim to know everything but when someone questions you become like a spoiled little stubborn kid. I can’t help but ask you how old are you? 
Do you even have a military knowledge or you just like to shit all over to piss people off. Just wondering .....

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have already answered---. If you are not capable of understanding---and this is not the first time---then it is not my problem---.
> 
> I have very clearly stated my point---.



Apparently you havent explained your point well at all or there would be no ambiguity about it. Or perhaps you are unable to put thoughts down coherently for people like myself to understand.

But since when asked about it, if the best you do is just try to sidestep the issue, proves you dont really have any idea what you are talking about either. Good to know

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## Kompromat

They were intercepted on 26th. PAF didn't allow them to shoot.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thy should have been prepared to counter the enemy the first night of incursion---.
> 
> The enemy had already announced its intention of invasion---.
> 
> Paf goes ahead makes the strike on the 27th---but then it does an incomplete job---of letting multiple enemy aircraft escape---even though it had prepared for the strike---.

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## Cookie Monster

LeGenD said:


> TR-3B anti-gravity aircraft


Anti gravity fields and related phenomena only exist in the sci-fi realm so far. Plz don't bring it up in a serious discussion on a serious thread. Among the 4 fundamental forces of nature, gravity is the least understood. We don't even have a clue about the corresponding carrier particle of the gravitational force(unlike the other 3)...let alone having enough knowledge to be able to manipulate the gravitational field.

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## Deino

*Guys ... can you please stop this nasty and stupid off-topic discussion?

Since about two pages you are all off the FC-31.*

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## LeGenD

Cookie Monster said:


> Anti gravity fields and related phenomena only exist in the sci-fi realm so far. Plz don't bring it up in a serious discussion on a serious thread. Among the 4 fundamental forces of nature, gravity is the least understood. We don't even have a clue about the corresponding carrier particle of the gravitational force(unlike the other 3)...let alone having enough knowledge to be able to manipulate the gravitational field.


TR-3B is American exclusive project and accomplishment.

FYI: https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/18/us-n...raft-resembling-ufo-documents-reveal-9246755/

Very serious.


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## Cookie Monster

LeGenD said:


> TR-3B is American exclusive project and accomplishment.
> 
> FYI: https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/18/us-n...raft-resembling-ufo-documents-reveal-9246755/
> 
> Very serious.


The article is mentioning being able to generate gravitational waves...something we just recently detected from two merging black holes. Are u suggesting that humans have reached a technological level(even if limited to US military) to be able to generate gravitational waves?

Secondly it mentions the craft being able to reduce it's mass. Again the scientific community was just recently able to confirm the Higg's Boson(confirming the Higg's field). This means that a particle's weight is dependent on how much it interacts with the Higg's Field...the more it interacts the more massive it is...the less it interacts the less mass it has. Being able to change ur mass on the fly would mean being able to change the interaction of the particles(the aircraft is made up of) with the Higg's Field.

The current understanding and knowledge isn't advanced enough to be able to do any of those things. If the supposed claims are right and this TR3B could indeed do all these things...then why would US come back to relying on regular methods of propulsion and induct fighter jets like the F35? It would put US comfortably at least a century(if not more) ahead of the rest of the world combined. It would make it possible for US to have those sci-fi airborne aircraft carrier(like that shown in Captain America winter soldier) in it's Air Force. Hell u can even make a submarine that can get out of water and levitate...fly around like a jet...literally an all in one type of "vehicle" that can operate in any environment...underwater, on water, on land, in air, and even in space. But instead US is going for conventional propulsion methods still? That's like choosing to go with a bow and arrow when u can instead be armed with a machine gun.

This sounds more like one of those UFO stories...I would rather stick with science I know than believe in something fantastical based on hearsay.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Very interesting short video---.

It again re-confirms what I stated---chinese intentionally did not make a true copy of the F35---even though they had all the designs---. They took the US threat very serious---.

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## python-000

If J-31 inducted in PAF it will be a great addition if its ever happens...


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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very interesting short video---.
> 
> It again re-confirms what I stated---chinese intentionally did not make a true copy of the F35---even though they had all the designs---. They took the US threat very serious---.



Honestly ... how credible is RT as a proof for the claim, the FC-31 is a copy of the F-35?

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Honestly ... how credible is RT as a proof for the claim, the FC-31 is a copy of the F-35?



Hi,

Not very credible---. 

But when I compare it to the interview of Air Vice Marshall Latif---top notch F16 fighter pilot---who competed with all top notch america pilots when he was in his initial training in the US in the early 80's---the first project director of JF17 program---and how he mentioned the threats from US officials about F16 design and information release in his recent interviews---it confirms that the chinese faced a similar threat---.

I would not doubt the americans saying" we know you have stolen our tech---but you better not build it---otherwise you won't like the consequences---".

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## Trailer23

*China's FC-31 fighter jet shows major upgrades at Paris Air Show*​
By Liu Xuanzun

China's fifth-generation stealth fighter jet FC-31 showcased its latest upgrades at the ongoing Paris Air Show, and analysts noted on Wednesday that the displayed model shows noteworthy changes in design that could significantly improve its capabilities.

A scaled model of the FC-31 is being displayed by the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) at the company's stand at the 53rd Paris Air Show, which is scheduled to run from Monday to Sunday.

Chinese military observers and media said the model on display appears to have undergone many changes compared to the aircraft's past designs.

The area behind the cockpit and the areas where the two engines are housed are now bulkier, Weihutang, a military column affiliated with China Central Television, reported on Wednesday.

The optimized aerodynamic design further reduces wind resistance, the report said.

Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Wednesday that these changes could mean the aircraft has been made more agile and is capable of carrying more fuel, which will give it a larger operational range.

It might also carry additional electronic devices for communication or satellite links, Wang said.

The upgraded FC-31 might even feature a pair of new engines, reported Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry.

The nozzles of the engines on the FC-31 model displayed in Paris are very different in structure and shape than the ones previously used, the periodical said, noting that this means the warplane will become more competitive on the international market, giving it a better chance of joining the People's Liberation Army if it gets new and more powerful engines.

Wang said that the warplane will continue to boost its capabilities.

For countries looking to buy an advanced stealth fighter jet, the FC-31 is similar to the US F-35 but much cheaper, and China does not attach political conditions to arms sales as the US does, Wang said.

*Video Link:* https://www.iqiyi.com/v_19rs7oc9fw.html
This video is only available in Chinese & has yet to be uploaded on YouTube, so you'll have to visit the site above.

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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> *China's FC-31 fighter jet shows major upgrades at Paris Air Show*​
> By Liu Xuanzun
> 
> China's fifth-generation stealth fighter jet FC-31 showcased its latest upgrades at the ongoing Paris Air Show, and analysts noted on Wednesday that the displayed model shows noteworthy changes in design that could significantly improve its capabilities.
> 
> A scaled model of the FC-31 is being displayed by the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) at the company's stand at the 53rd Paris Air Show, which is scheduled to run from Monday to Sunday.
> 
> Chinese military observers and media said the model on display appears to have undergone many changes compared to the aircraft's past designs.
> 
> The area behind the cockpit and the areas where the two engines are housed are now bulkier, Weihutang, a military column affiliated with China Central Television, reported on Wednesday.
> 
> The optimized aerodynamic design further reduces wind resistance, the report said.
> 
> Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Wednesday that these changes could mean the aircraft has been made more agile and is capable of carrying more fuel, which will give it a larger operational range.
> 
> It might also carry additional electronic devices for communication or satellite links, Wang said.
> 
> The upgraded FC-31 might even feature a pair of new engines, reported Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry.
> 
> The nozzles of the engines on the FC-31 model displayed in Paris are very different in structure and shape than the ones previously used, the periodical said, noting that this means the warplane will become more competitive on the international market, giving it a better chance of joining the People's Liberation Army if it gets new and more powerful engines.
> 
> Wang said that the warplane will continue to boost its capabilities.
> 
> For countries looking to buy an advanced stealth fighter jet, the FC-31 is similar to the US F-35 but much cheaper, and China does not attach political conditions to arms sales as the US does, Wang said.
> 
> *Video Link:* https://www.iqiyi.com/v_19rs7oc9fw.html
> This video is only available in Chinese & has yet to be uploaded on YouTube, so you'll have to visit the site above.




Already posted several times ... it's nonsense, GT is highly unreliable and so I would better forget this BS.


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## araz

Deino said:


> Already posted several times ... it's nonsense, GT is highly unreliable and so I would better forget this BS.


Plus there is nothing concrete there. A lot of "might and may and will". This is wishful thinking till it materialises .
A

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## Armchair

The FC-31 would have perhaps done best had it used a Mirage profile of a simple delta wing. Would have been faster and had longer range (from the large amount of fuel in the wings and of lesser drag. Would have been a very stable low level strike platform.


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## MastanKhan




----------



## python-000

J-31 is Need of Time for PAF to counter indian rafales...


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## araz

python-000 said:


> J-31 is Need of Time for PAF to counter indian rafales...


It is not going to be ready for thew next 5 years or longer. For PAF to want it we will need to invest money to develop it and because o the intricacies involved in 5th generation designing, we could soon be down a couple of billion with no thing to show for it. So we want the Chinese to show us a finished product before we test it and decide.
A

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## Trailer23

*





AVIC official sounds upbeat note about FC-31*​09 July, 2019
​*Development of the AVIC FC-31 fighter is going well, and the aircraft is destined to enter service with the People's Liberation Army (PLA), according to its chief designer.*​
A report the official China Daily newspaper quotes Sun Cong, a chief researcher at AVIC's Shenyang Aircraft Corporation unit, as saying that observers can expect news about the project at some point.

"You will see its latest developments in due course, in the near future," Sun is quoted as saying.

The report goes on to add that the FC-31 will at some point enter the Peoples' Liberation Army, though it does not specify the Peoples' Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) or Peoples' Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).​





*AVIC displayed a model of the FC-31 at the 2019 Paris air show*

It contends that Sun's comments should scorch the view that the FC-31 programme is stalled, with Beijing focused on building up its fleet of Chengdu J-20 fighters.

While some observers have speculated the FC-31 will never enter Chinese service, there has also been speculation that the FC-31 will replace the J-15 as China's carrier-borne fighter.

The FC-31 is based on the J-31, a prototype aircraft that appeared in the 2014 Air Show China in Zhuhai, but which did not make an appearance in 2016 or 2018.

Like the J-31, the FC-31 is believed to be powered by a pair of Klimov RD-93 engines, although AVIC officials have never confirmed this. It is believed that eventually the aircraft will get a Chinese engine, the developmental AVIC Guizhou WS-13 Taishan.

The FC-31, which first flew in 2016, features a cropped tail, whereas the J-31 had a nearly triangular tails with a horizontal top.

AVIC had a rare public discussion about the FC-31 at the Dubai air show in 2015, when it appeared to be seeking an international partner for the type.

In the Dubai press briefing, Gyrfalcon designer Lin Peng said the FC-31 is envisaged as a low-observable jet with “multi-spectrum, low-observability characteristics.”​





*The J-31 performing at Air Show China 2014*

The fighter will be capable of a range of missions, including offensive/defence counter air, deep strike, suppression of enemy air defences, interdiction, close air support, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance.

In its 2019 report to Congress about Chinese military developments, the US Department of Defense noted that China was making progress with the FC-31.

While it said the J-20 had likely entered service, it said FC-31 production could begin in 2019. For both types, however, the report noted that China is having difficulties with engines and radars.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...-sounds-upbeat-note-about-fc-31-repor-459530/​

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

*
The New Chinese Stealth Fighter Plane is Undergoing Incredible Advancements*​
10 July, 2019

The development of FC-31, the second stealth fighter aircraft created by China, is advancing at a good pace and on time, said its chief designer.

Sun Cong, chairman of the Chinese Aviation Establishment of the China Aviation Industry Corporation, said on Thursday during a press conference held in Shenyang, Liaoning Province, that one must be patient and expect good news from the project.

“In due course we will present the latest developments,” said Sun, who is also a senior researcher at the Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute of AVIC.

Sun also indicated that China has never wavered in its attempts to develop and build a second series of stealth fighters after the J-20 entered the Air Force of the People’s Liberation Army two years ago.




Due to his disappearance from public view in the last two years, Sun’s comments reassure about the fate of FC-31.

The twin-engine radar fighter aircraft was unveiled in October 2012 when a prototype made its first flight, becoming, after the J-20, the second Chinese fifth generation fighter aircraft.

The FC-31 has a high survival rate, a low radar signature, advanced electronic countermeasures, strong information gathering and handling capabilities, excellent situational awareness and combat capability beyond visual range.

In addition to air combat, it can also carry out attacks against land and sea targets. And this plane has a large deposit for weapons and can carry multiple external missiles.

According to the specifications of the AVIC, the FC-31 has a *maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons*, a *combat range of 1,200 kilometers* and a *maximum speed between 1.8 and 2,205 kilometers per hour*. It can carry *8 tons of weapons* and has a lifespan of 30 years.

The FC-31 will enter service in the People’s Liberation Army. This aircraft is the most recent success of the Shenyang Aviation Corporation, after the aircraft carrier-based fighter plane J-15 and the J-8 series fighter aircraft of half a century.

*Source:* PeopleDaily / Wings Hearld

http://www.wingsherald.com/the-new-...-plane-is-undergoing-incredible-advancements/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## CIA Mole

will we see it in this year’s parade?
h20 development is behind it seems.

Or maybe PLA intentionally quiet to not poke the hawks?


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## Cool_Soldier

Still capabilities of J-31 are not clear. needs a solid platform to induct to tackle upcoming threats from Eastern side.


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## PDF

Pakistan's requirement is of a single engine aircraft.


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## Tamiyah

Hachiman said:


> Pakistan's requirement is of a single engine aircraft.


Who knows? Any official statement?


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## The Eagle

Speaking of possibility of Pakistan's NGF, the tail art of one of the PAF C-130B participating in RIAT 2019 suggest as follows.





Possible dual engine PAC's NGF on tail.





A close look-up of the same Tail Art.

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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Speaking of possibility of Pakistan's NGF, the tail art of one of the PAF C-130B participating in RIAT 2019 suggest as follows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Possible dual engine PAC's NGF on tail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A close look-up of the same Tail Art.


J31 dont have canards sir


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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> J31 dont have canards sir



Bhai, I only meant to share possible PAC's NGF which seems like mix of J-20 & FC-31 to the some extent. I can be wrong but if to go by Tail Art on PAF's C-130B; doesn't looks like FC-31 is coming to PAF.

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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Bhai, I only meant to share possible PAC's NGF which seems like mix of J-20 & FC-31 to the some extent. I can be wrong but if to go by Tail Art on PAF's C-130B; doesn't looks like FC-31 is coming to PAF.


Hum ne bhi sirf bat ki hai sir

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> Hum ne bhi sirf bat ki hai sir


PAF loves delat

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## waja2000

FC-31 seems like waiting new engine. wait 2020 more clear situation for FC-31 ...


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## LKJ86



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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571970



FC-31 V2? Can you confirm how old that picture is?


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J-31 is not an underdeveloped fraud project---.
> 
> Pakistan's project director AVM r Shahid Latif stated in his interview that if the americans saw any copies of F16 on the JF17---he would pay dearly for that---.
> 
> AVM Latif was a top tier F16 fighter pilot---. The compromises made on the JF17 was for that reason---it would have beeen a true copy of the F16 other than the intake on the belly---.
> 
> Similarly with the J31---there is no doubt that the chinese stole all the designs of the F35---but when it came to building a true copy---the threat from the US was very obvious---"make a true copy at your peril"----. The consequences were too high for china---.
> 
> Now---could pakistan build a true physical copy of F35---absolutely---maybe not as capable---but they will---that is why project AZM---.
> 
> The J31 may definitley not be as capable as the F35---but it would still be ahead of most of the 4.5 gen aircraft
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Readers should rest assured that if Paf goes for the J31---it will get all those bumps and curves that are needed for stealth---.


I think you can copy the frame, but its all avionics . F16 design been adopted by many countries.



Deino said:


> *Can we please come back to the FC-31 and an eventual PAF deal?*


recent comparison. My humble opinion, F35 vs FC31 is totally wrong comparison.


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## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> I think you can copy the frame, but its all avionics . F16 design been adopted by many countries.



Hi,

Like which countries---.


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Like which countries---.








Jap F2 , then South Korea did it too.


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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Like which countries---.


ISRAEL/CHINA/ KOREA @MastanKhan


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## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> Jap F2 , then South Korea did it too.



That is old news---I thought you had a surprise somewhere---.


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> That is old news---I thought you had a surprise somewhere---.


well , you ask for design. I showed you design.


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## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> well , you ask for design. I showed you design.



Hi,

We were talking about design restriction on countries who are not in the good books of the US---For JF17 and for the F31---pakistan --- china---and may have severe threats from of the US for copy paste---.

And you bring in the example of two of the closest american allies---Japan / so korea---.


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Was that all your input---.


at this moment yes. There is no much info about avionics about these planes. Except pretty much they use American made or locally made copies of western avionics.


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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We were talking about design restriction on countries who are not in the good books of the US---For JF17 and for the F31---pakistan --- china---and may have severe threats from of the US for copy paste---.
> 
> And you bring in the example of two of the closest american allies---Japan / so korea---.


what do you think about Thunder or J10


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## mdmm

Is there any possibility that PAF will buy J10 c , J20, J31 from China ?
As India has a big line of modern Jet fighters , SU30,Mig29,Jaguar,F35,Rafale,Teja etc etc.
Pakistan may have to wrestle those Indian jet in near future with only JF17 Thunder, since USA has ban F16 for attacking PAF on India.


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## The Accountant

mdmm said:


> Is there any possibility that PAF will buy J10 c , J20, J31 from China ?
> As India has a big line of modern Jet fighters , SU30,Mig29,Jaguar,F35,Rafale,Teja etc etc.
> Pakistan may have to wrestle those Indian jet in near future with only JF17 Thunder, since USA has ban F16 for attacking PAF on India.


Only j31 is a possibiblity nothing else ...

J10 offer nothing significant over jf17 except for range therefore focus is on improving thunder ... f16s upgrades and f16 v is on the cards


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## TheTallGuy

The reason we have not seen J10 in PAF service is the engine (AL31FN) now Chinese have started placing WS10 Engines in J10C still long way to maturity.

Now Project Azm = (J31 with WS19 engine and European/Chinese avionics)

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## Syed1.

TheTallGuy said:


> The reason we have not seen J10 in PAF service is the engine (AL31FN) now Chinese have started placing WS10 Engines in J10C still long way to maturity.
> 
> Now Project Azm = (J31 with WS19 engine and European/Chinese avionics)



Project Azm is meant to be a clean slate indigenous project, not J31 in PAF paint job. Sure we will get plenty of assistance from the Chinese and the end product may even have plenty of resemblances to J-31, but it still will be an inhouse design and development.

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## The Accountant

Syed1. said:


> Project Azm is meant to be a clean slate indigenous project, not J31 in PAF paint job. Sure we will get plenty of assistance from the Chinese and the end product may even have plenty of resemblances to J-31, but it still will be an inhouse design and development.


I am cautious with will be ... i think desired to be is more suited ...


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## LKJ86

Syed1. said:


> Project Azm is meant to be a clean slate indigenous project, not J31 in PAF paint job.


Do you mean Project Azm will take the developing pattern of India's LCA?

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## Umar Nazir

We should try for J20. I knew china dont want to export J20 but Pakistan is very special friend of china and little diplomatic effort can convince china for J20 export to only Pakistan

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## Deino

Umar Nazir said:


> We should try for J20. I knew china dont want to export J20 but Pakistan is very special friend of china and little diplomatic effort can convince china for J20 export to only Pakistan




Let me just think about it? ... Nope!

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Jap F2 , then South Korea did it too.


Bottom one r Taiwan jets like our JF-17


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## Awan68

Deino said:


> Let me just think about it? ... Nope!


Hey XI Jinping, is that u?

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## DrWatson775

TheTallGuy said:


> The reason we have not seen J10 in PAF service is the engine (AL31FN) now Chinese have started placing WS10 Engines in J10C still long way to maturity.
> 
> Now Project Azm = (J31 with WS19 engine and European/Chinese avionics)


Project Azm design will be local. No ToT of an already built aircraft. Yes there will be foreign input and almost certainly a foreign engine. I think PAF does not want to get in a situation of earlier block JF17s with a short legged fighter with limited ordinance (although still capable and the only option to induct in numbers).

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## LKJ86

DrWatson775 said:


> I think PAF does not want to get in a situation of earlier block JF17s with a short legged fighter with limited ordinance (although still capable and the only option to induct in numbers).


What do you want a lightweight fighter to be?

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## The Accountant

DrWatson775 said:


> Project Azm design will be local. No ToT of an already built aircraft. Yes there will be foreign input and almost certainly a foreign engine. I think PAF does not want to get in a situation of earlier block JF17s with a short legged fighter with limited ordinance (although still capable and the only option to induct in numbers).


Lolz ,,, we have no capacity to build a local design ... specially a fifth generation ... the focus is on lot of localization but design is the most complex part and cant be local as of now ...

At max on board design specifying the capability definition and technologies to be used will be done locally by the help of CAD but we are not equipped with building and testing prototypes as of yet ...



LKJ86 said:


> What do you want a lightweight fighter to be?


By looking at his post do you think he understands the purpose of thunder ? We all know thunder was short legged by design and not by short coming ... it was never intended for deep strike mission and to defend own territory it is fixed with IFR probe ...

Except for engine and hard points, thunder is a wonderful project and has delivered much more than our expectations ...

we replaced second generation aircraft like F7, F6 and Mirrage III with a true 4.5 generation fighter having capabiltiies of BVR engagement and stand-off munitions ... what else we could have done ?

Offcourse we need our future front end fighter to replace f16s but that has nothing to do with thunder poject

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## DrWatson775

The Accountant said:


> Lolz ,,, we have no capacity to build a local design ... specially a fifth generation ... the focus is on lot of localization but design is the most complex part and cant be local as of now ...
> 
> At max on board design specifying the capability definition and technologies to be used will be done locally by the help of CAD but we are not equipped with building and testing prototypes as of yet ...
> 
> 
> By looking at his post do you think he understands the purpose of thunder ? We all know thunder was short legged by design and not by short coming ... it was never intended for deep strike mission and to defend own territory it is fixed with IFR probe ...
> 
> Except for engine and hard points, thunder is a wonderful project and has delivered much more than our expectations ...
> 
> we replaced second generation aircraft like F7, F6 and Mirrage III with a true 4.5 generation fighter having capabiltiies of BVR engagement and stand-off munitions ... what else we could have done ?
> 
> Offcourse we need our future front end fighter to replace f16s but that has nothing to do with thunder poject



True it is a great aircraft for PAF… but allow me to put this forward. Whatever we will see in block III (maybe except the AESA) including likely increased BVR carrying capability could have been done from the getgo. The question is why wasn't it done? … and why is PAF not jumping to join J31?

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## Umar Nazir

Deino said:


> Let me just think about it? ... Nope!


It will be big yes


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## araz

Because PAF could neither jump nor join. Somehow people have this concept that anything China builds is our devine right to have. This is not the case and a lot has changed in the last 20 years.
A


DrWatson775 said:


> True it is a great aircraft for PAF… but allow me to put this forward. Whatever we will see in block III (maybe except the AESA) including likely increased BVR carrying capability could have been done from the getgo. The question is why wasn't it done? … and why is PAF not jumping to join J31?

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## MIRauf

SAC's J-31 looks like a red headed step child, PLAAF doesn't seems to be interested in it nor does PLAAN, why should PAF go for it on its own ? PAF with its great working relationship with CAC will most likely stick with them for AZM or the Next Gen Fighter.

As for why PAF is not jumping on J-31 ? did you see what happened on Feb 27th ? did PAF get rolled over that it needs to panic and pick up a design that gets looks and well gets looks and that's about it ?


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Because PAF could neither jump nor join. Somehow people have this concept that anything China builds is our devine right to have. This is not the case and a lot has changed in the last 20 years.
> A


IMO, Pakistan may prefer high-cost weapons from the west.


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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> IMO, Pakistan may prefer high-cost weapons from the west.


It is not about the cost but about reliability. From a sellers perspective however, the more weapons you can mate with your fighter jet the more its demand and acceptability.
A

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## Danishwer

MIRauf said:


> SAC's J-31 looks like a red headed step child, PLAAF doesn't seems to be interested in it nor does PLAAN, why should PAF go for it on its own ? PAF with its great working relationship with CAC will most likely stick with them for AZM or the Next Gen Fighter.
> 
> As for why PAF is not jumping on J-31 ? did you see what happened on Feb 27th ? did PAF get rolled over that it needs to panic and pick up a design that gets looks and well gets looks and that's about it ?



God forbid, but history can repeat itself like A5


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## sparten

J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.


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## Imran Khan

sparten said:


> J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.


how we know sir ?


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## PakShaheen79

sparten said:


> J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.



Can you elaborate a bit more on it please particularly on lacking part. Thanks.


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## MastanKhan

sparten said:


> J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.



Hi,

For decades we have been made to believe that the PAF is all about " MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE"---so where does the " lacking " come into the picture---.

Paf always claimed that is was the pilot that projected the aircraft---



DrWatson775 said:


> True it is a great aircraft for PAF… but allow me to put this forward. Whatever we will see in block III (maybe except the AESA) including likely increased BVR carrying capability could have been done from the getgo. The question is why wasn't it done? … and why is PAF not jumping to join J31?



Hi,

Because it wants a guaranteed project to make money---.

J31 is a completed project---. There is not much money to be made on it now---.

The new project AZM would have a lots of funds to be plundered during the build up stage and no over sight---.

You should be able to get it by now---



DrWatson775 said:


> Project Azm design will be local. No ToT of an already built aircraft. Yes there will be foreign input and almost certainly a foreign engine. I think PAF does not want to get in a situation of earlier block JF17s with a short legged fighter with limited ordinance (although still capable and the only option to induct in numbers).



Hi,

You have not done enough research---.

The size of the JF17 was the choice of the Paf---. It is not a short legged aircraft for its size---as a matter of fact---it has pretty good legs.

If it gets a modern engine---the fuel mileage would increase by default---and it would be in a very optimal range as compared to other aircraft in its class---.

Project AZM is another money making fraud by the PAF---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Project AZM is another money making fraud by the PAF---.



But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians. 
By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.

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## Syed1.

GriffinsRule said:


> But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
> By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.


Using his own words against him, I like it


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
> By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.


For what it's worth, even the PLAAF isn't necessarily convinced of the J-31 either. The scope of a joint Sino-Pak project through Chengdu is still there.

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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Using his own words against him, I like it



Hi,

Rather than being stupid---it is better to ask why---before you start yapping just because you got a tongue in your mouth---.

Those M2K's were the need of the hour---they were ready due to a cancelled order---a proven aircraft of the first degree fully electronic & weapons integrated just needed the flyers to learn to operate and techs to do their job---.

The top tier aircraft built by a proven aircraft manufacturer with a lots of pride and a very high quality control---.

@syed1

OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.

Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.

Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.

Second thing---in case of war---it is well within the reach of the enemy strike weapons---. If enemy destroys project AZM facilities---which they will right at its peak---there is nowhere else to go---.

But if the JF17 facility is destroyed---china can still produce it---.

The previous military vehicles or similar have resulted in failures---. I do not know of a tier one military vehicle project that is a success---.

So---my question to you is---who teaches you kids these ideas of stupidity---is it your teachers---your seniors at school---family at home---friends---acquintances---who teaches you these things---because I don't teach you to talk like imbeciles on any subject matter---. So---where do you learn these things---.

You already know your industrial capacity and capability if you have any general idea---you know the level of corruption that is prevailing in the ranks---.

See---that 10 million dollar an aircraft bribe for M2K would not have done anything to the engineering side of the aircraft---. That aircraft would still have been a 10 on a scale of 10---regardless---.

The JF17 succeeded because you had an obnoxious ars-ehole of a project director who got superceded by others for rank and he being the mad man that he was---he had to prove that his assignment was no fluke to shut the naysayers up---.

You also had the chinese who had the driving force to make something for pakistan to show that they can do what we demanded---.

The question needed to be asked is---why does the J31 not meet the needs of Paf---. What is its handicap---what is the problem that cannot be fixed---.

We are in a state of war for the last 10 days and our much needed 125 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020---.

The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.

You kids are pathetic---sitting on the sidelines waiting like vultures to pounce on me if I make a supposed error---how disgusting of you---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rather than being stupid---it is better to ask why---before you start yapping just because you got a tongue in your mouth---.
> 
> Those M2K's were the need of the hour---they were ready due to a cancelled order---a proven aircraft of the first degree fully electronic & weapons integrated just needed the flyers to learn to operate and techs to do their job---.
> 
> The top tier aircraft built by a proven aircraft manufacturer with a lots of pride and a very high quality control---.
> 
> @syed1
> 
> OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.
> 
> Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.
> 
> Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.
> 
> Second thing---in case of war---it is well within the reach of the enemy strike weapons---. If enemy destroys project AZM facilities---which they will right at its peak---there is nowhere else to go---.
> 
> But if the JF17 facility is destroyed---china can still produce it---.
> 
> The previous military vehicles or similar have resulted in failures---. I do not know of a tier one military vehicle project that is a success---.
> 
> So---my question to you is---who teaches you kids these ideas of stupidity---is it your teachers---your seniors at school---family at home---friends---acquintances---who teaches you these things---because I don't teach you to talk like imbeciles on any subject matter---. So---where do you learn these things---.
> 
> You already know your industrial capacity and capability if you have any general idea---you know the level of corruption that is prevailing in the ranks---.
> 
> See---that 10 million dollar an aircraft bribe for M2K would not have done anything to the engineering side of the aircraft---. That aircraft would still have been a 10 on a scale of 10---regardless---.
> 
> The JF17 succeeded because you had an obnoxious ars-ehole of a project director who got superceded by others for rank and he being the mad man that he was---he had to prove that his assignment was no fluke to shut the naysayers up---.
> 
> You also had the chinese who had the driving force to make something for pakistan to show that they can do what we demanded---.
> 
> The question needed to be asked is---why does the J31 not meet the needs of Paf---. What is its handicap---what is the problem that cannot be fixed---.
> 
> We are in a state of war for the last 10 days and our much needed 15 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020---.
> 
> The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.
> 
> You kids are pathetic---sitting on the sidelines waiting like vultures to pounce on me if I make a supposed error---how disgusting of you---.



Well I would counter that by stating that IAF was always going to target Kamra, KSW, HIT, POF and other defense related industries etc. That has not stop us from investing in our industrial complex in the past and neither should it in the future. Part of the AZM project, that will be strategic in nature wont be the equipment and machinery, as that is replaceable in a quick fashion, but the knowledge gained from all the different aspects of engineering disciplines that go in such a project. That is where its worth really is in my eyes.

Furthermore, as PAF has already indicated. it is looking to partner up with other countries, so there will still be redundant capacity outside of Pakistan to build back up the numbers needed after a conflict to account for attrition.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) you are correct. PLAAF is not satisfied or perhaps even interested in J-31. PLAN might have no choice but to induct in down the line but the program was perhaps too immature and rushed through and is not up to par for the standards expected going into the 2020s and beyond. Chinese will still keep at it and improve its native content and it might yet get inducted, but I am glad Pakistan is not just jumping at it. We know next to nothing about the aircraft and its performance outside of the fact that it uses RD-93s for now and what it looks like (which is still subject to change).

The way I see it, JF-17 was a light fighter that PAF envisioned fulfilling a certain role in its structure, which it seems to have accomplished in droves. Prior to that, every other jet in our inventory was bought off the shelf and usually only what was available to us. We all know the stories behind the inductions of F-7s, F-6s, A-5s, used Mirages etc ... none of them were our first choice. With JF-17, Pakistan has had a taste of something tailor built for it and it likes how it fits. They are now going to try to do the same with the next LO design and hopefully succeed in it as well. But they have to try first to find out.

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## MystryMan

MastanKhan said:


> our much needed 15 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020


which aircraft is that?


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## guest9999

MastanKhan said:


> OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.
> 
> Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.
> 
> *Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility*---.
> …
> 
> The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.


The part in red is beautiful...

PAF has no business producing fighter aircraft, let alone 5th generation. *Such an endeavor is a pipe dream for even more technologically advanced countries like Japan & South Korea, who both have designs on paper which have not materialized despite years having gone by. A country like Pakistan, which is one of the worst when it comes to education & manufacturing, dreaming to make a stealth fighter, is one of the cruelest jokes played with the sentiments of people in this country*.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You want to build a 5th gen aircraft---who is going to sell you the machinery for that project---.


MystryMan said:


> which aircraft is that?



Hi,

My apologies---that was a typo----we were supposed to have replaced 100---125 aircraft by 2020 with newer one to get our number of new aircraft to around 350

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You want to build a 5th gen aircraft---who is going to sell you the machinery for that project---.


You can let them worry about where they source it from.


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## kursed

MastanKhan said:


> Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.



For what its worth, I doubt PAF is building any fifth generation warplanes within the country. The ultimate scope of Project Azm is to have 'basic' manpower available to even 'sustain' such an aircraft, should the situation arise where Pakistan is able to 'afford' a low-observable aircraft from China. As of right now, the entire manpower is trained on 3rd and 4th generation fighters. They will not even be able to keep up with routine maintenance of such a fighter aircraft in future. Everything else, being shown off, is to give a 'vision' to this project, nothing more. As they say, you'd aim for the stars, will ultimately land somewhere in the middle. =)

As for corruption, PAF is absolutely responsible for it, in a variety of fighter / non-fighter deals. It's pretty much a given part of all deals with all military arms of Pakistan.

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## araz

kursed said:


> For what is it's worth, I doubt PAF is building any fifth generation warplanes within the country. The ultimate scope of Project Azm is to have 'basic' manpower available to even 'sustain' such an aircraft, should the situation arise where Pakistan is able to 'afford' a low-observable aircraft from China. As of right now, the entire manpower is trained on 3rd and 4th generation fighters. They will not even be able to keep up with routine maintenance of such a fighter aircraft in future. Everything else, being shown off, is to give a 'vision' to this project, nothing more. As they say, you'd aim for the stars, will ultimately land somewhere in the middle. =)
> 
> As for corruption, PAF is absolutely responsible for it, in a variety of fighter / non-fighter deals. It's pretty much a given part of all deals with all military arms of Pakistan.


Your statement is contrary to what is being said by other members. The same was said when PAF started down the route of co designing and co building the JFT. We have certainly progressed since the early 2000s. Whereas based on publically available information I have nothing to deny your assertion, I do not agree with it either. A joint venture may still be a possibility and we may have a LO platform instead of a pure stealth platform in the interim(my own assertion). However there is no evidence to support your assertion either. I would therefore wait and watch.
A

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## kursed

araz said:


> Your statement is contrary to what is being said by other members. The same was said when PAF started down the route of co designing and co building the JFT. We have certainly progressed since the early 2000s. Whereas based on publically available information I have nothing to deny your assertion, I do not agree with it either. A joint venture may still be a possibility and we may have a LO platform instead of a pure stealth platform in the interim(my own assertion). However there is no evidence to support your assertion either. I would therefore wait and watch.
> A



A fighter project of this scale, cannot be pulled out like a rabbit out of a hat. In any case, feel free to disagree. This was my opinion anyway.

And even in case of JF-17, all first batches of manpower for JF-17 project were trained in China, maintenance crews included. And there is only a certain portion of the aircraft that we are right now able to build within the country, not 100% of it. And this is while not even taking into account the avionics end. And JF-17 right now, without the AESA is a 3.5 gen aircraft. What you are referring to a low-observable aircraft program here. Can sort the math out yourself.


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## araz

kursed said:


> A fighter project of this scale, cannot be brought to light as a rabbit out of a hat. In any case, feel free to disagree. This was my opinion anyway.
> 
> And even in case of JF-17, all first batches of manpower for JF-17 project was trained in China, maintenance included. And there is only a certain portion of the aircraft that we are right now able to build within the country, not even 100% of it. And this is to not even take into account the avionics end. And JF-17 right now, without the AESA is a 3.5 aircraft. You're referring to a low-observable aircraft program here. Can sort the math out yourself.


I think there is a lot more going on than you are aware of. I agree that Paklands lack basic infrastructure but they have always been able to procure subcomponents and make products themselves. So avionics are now being assembled in house. This is not ideal but this is how we can and do things. You cannot say that since we do not have X or Y capability, we cannot do ABandC. The problem is that there are quite a few unknowns which none of us are aware of. Progress ha been made since we started manufacturing JFTs and things will advance in spite of our inabilities t ocarry out ceertain functions. So as I said we will have to wait and see as none of us myself included is fully aware of what stage the project is at.
A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> I think there is a lot more going on than you are aware of. I agree that Paklands lack basic infrastructure but they have always been able to procure subcomponents and make products themselves. So avionics are now being assembled in house. This is not ideal but this is how we can and do things. You cannot say that since we do not have X or Y capability, we cannot do ABandC. The problem is that there are quite a few unknowns which none of us are aware of. Progress ha been made since we started manufacturing JFTs and things will advance in spite of our inabilities t ocarry out ceertain functions. So as I said we will have to wait and see as none of us myself included is fully aware of what stage the project is at.
> A


Only when face sanctions from outside, you will have to learn to do everything by yourself, like China, Iran, or North Korea...
Otherwise, India would be a very good example.

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## mdmm

Thank you for reply.Kindly provide details, what means by "" Now Project Azm = (J31 with WS19 engine and European/Chinese avionics)"""
One more questions.
No body like a war .Pakistan will fight if attacked by India or Afghanistan.Kindly provide information about , for how many days of ammunition /arms do Pakistan and India , have??


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## MastanKhan

kursed said:


> A fighter project of this scale, cannot be brought to light as a rabbit out of a hat. In any case, feel free to disagree. This was my opinion anyway.
> 
> And even in case of JF-17, all first batches of manpower for JF-17 project was trained in China, maintenance included. And there is only a certain portion of the aircraft that we are right now able to build within the country, not even 100% of it. And this is to not even take into account the avionics end. And JF-17 right now, without the AESA is a 3.5 aircraft. You're referring to a low-observable aircraft program here. Can sort the math out yourself.



Hi,

Thank you for your comments and post---.

For 30 plus years we have been talking about war and being prepared for war with india and yet we still are 100-150 aircraft short of our requirements---.

And why is that---because of all the fiascos---not making the decision at the right time---picking the wrong aircraft---too much dependence on good working relationship and not understanding the technical tactical aspect of the political decision making---investing in an aircraft and finding no EW package at the last minute---investing in the aircraft and finding out no engine for the aircraft---advertising for an air superiority fighter and giving us a strike platform in return---.

And these issues were of a 3.5 - 4 th gen aircraft---. When you proceed to building a 5th gen aircraft---the issues are a 100 times more---.

Look at the Paf---it tested the most POTENT 4.5 gen aircraft the RAFALE in early 2000's and called it not up to their standards---till they saw it in operation in Libya and then they changed their minds---but too late---.

How can you trust this organization---?

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your comments and post---.
> 
> For 30 plus years we have been talking about war and being prepared for war with india and yet we still are 100-150 aircraft short of our requirements---.
> 
> And why is that---because of all the fiascos---not making the decision at the right time---picking the wrong aircraft---too much dependence on good working relationship and not understanding the technical tactical aspect of the political decision making---investing in an aircraft and finding no EW package at the last minute---investing in the aircraft and finding out no engine for the aircraft---advertising for an air superiority fighter and giving us a strike platform in return---.
> 
> And these issues were of a 3.5 - 4 th gen aircraft---. When you proceed to building a 5th gen aircraft---the issues are a 100 times more---.
> 
> Look at the Paf---it tested the most POTENT 4.5 gen aircraft the RAFALE in early 2000's and called it not up to their standards---till they saw it in operation in Libya and then they changed their minds---but too late---.
> 
> How can you trust this organization---?


As others have said, when the basic building blocks are not there for a foundation, it will be a knock down kit assembly with a relabeled chinese unit

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## kursed

MastanKhan said:


> Look at the Paf---it tested the most POTENT 4.5 gen aircraft the RAFALE in early 2000's and called it not up to their standards---till they saw it in operation in Libya and then they changed their minds---but too late---.
> 
> How can you trust this organization---?


Don't have a choice, to be honest. =) I do trust my pilot friends and the absolute hard work they put in, day in/day out.

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## MastanKhan

kursed said:


> Don't have a choice, to be honest. =) I do trust my pilot friends and the absolute hard work they put in, day in/day out.



Hi,

You are absolutely correct---. The issue is not about the pilots---it has never been about the pilots---but it is about the Managers---.

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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> Only when face sanctions from outside, you will have to learn to do everything by yourself, like China, Iran, or North Korea...
> Otherwise, India would be a very good example.


This remains a problem with all small countries with limited budget. They get influenced by bigger suppliers and arms are a means of exerting influence. This is why aid is a curse because you are given aid to come under the influence of other powers and once you avail it the trap is set. Subcomponent manufacturing/ subassembly is not as hazardous as buying full systems as most companies will continue to sell components.
A


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> As others have said, when the basic building blocks are not there for a foundation, it will be a knock down kit assembly with a relabeled chinese unit



Hi,

I have the same feeling about the J31 as I had for the Rafale---. After a few years Paf will say---we did not realize the aircraft would be this good---.

I for one would like to find out what the shortcomings in the J31 are---because the Paf has claimed to hide behind this answer one too many times and later found out to get egg on their faces---.

This is also an excuse for a lack of bribe or not enough kick back---and it is also a case of being what the true need is and the true capability of the aircraft---in case of rejecting the Hawkeye in 80's---telling the US it was not worth it---till they later found out how fckd up the Paf's assessment was---.

Or now going for all the Mirage 3 / 5 all around the world and getting them like there is no tomorrow and yet not going after the Mirage F1---.

Now don't get me wrong---a mirage 3 /5 upgraded with the right EW package is still a hell of a strike platform-.

The lack of predictability in the Paf from one CEO to the next CEO is not conducive to the running of a fighting force as to what he is going to do---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the same feeling about the J31 as I had for the Rafale---. After a few years Paf will say---we did not realize the aircraft would be this good---.
> 
> I for one would like to find out what the shortcomings in the J31 are---because the Paf has claimed to hide behind this answer one too many times and later found out to get egg on their faces---.
> 
> This is also an excuse for a lack of bribe or not enough kick back---and it is also a case of being what the true need is and the true capability of the aircraft---in case of rejecting the Hawkeye in 80's---telling the US it was not worth it---till they later found out how fckd up the Paf's assessment was---.
> 
> Or now going for all the Mirage 3 / 5 all around the world and getting them like there is no tomorrow and yet not going after the Mirage F1---.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong---a mirage 3 /5 upgraded with the right EW package is still a hell of a strike platform-.
> 
> The lack of predictability in the Paf from one CEO to the next CEO is not conducive to the running of a fighting force as to what he is going to do---.


Simply put - NO FUTURE VISION. We have said it too often enough.



LKJ86 said:


> Only when face sanctions from outside, you will have to learn to do everything by yourself, like China, Iran, or North Korea...
> Otherwise, India would be a very good example.


Correct, that is same for us; Sanctions were excellent for us!. I am not joking, it made us stand on our 2 feet but our leaders had a good vision and already took precautionary measures to make sure key industries were there to support plus institutions.

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## Silicon0000

I am not an expert, infact didn't belong to this field but it looks me interesting so that's why asking. Don't know which thread would be best to put on so asking here.

I have few question .....

Why fighter aircrafts and specially FGF has air engine inlets on the front lower side and not on the upper side like B2 bomber? ...... Is it reduces the RCS or not? And what are the pro and cons?

By the way there should be a dedicated thread for foolish ideas comes to people mind from nowhere

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## MastanKhan

Silicon0000 said:


> By the way there should be a dedicated thread for foolish ideas comes to people mind from nowhere




Hi,

Ask @Dubious to create a sticky for all crazy questions---.

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## Dubious

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ask @Dubious to create a sticky for all crazy questions---.


itna mera kaam matt bar hain!

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## Silicon0000

Dubious said:


> itna mera kaam matt bar hain!



Jahan itna barha hai wahan kuch aur sahi


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## Imran Khan

i think we should wait for j31


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## LKJ86

Silicon0000 said:


> Why fighter aircrafts and specially FGF has air engine inlets on the front lower side and not on the upper side like B2 bomber? ...... Is it reduces the RCS or not? And what are the pro and cons?


It means you basically choose to give up the fighter's maneuverability.

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## Dazzler

For PLAN?


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## gambit

Silicon0000 said:


> Why fighter aircrafts and specially FGF has air engine inlets on the front lower side and not on the upper side like B2 bomber? ...... Is it reduces the RCS or not? And what are the pro and cons?


It is for 'angle of attack' (AOA).

In air combat maneuver (ACM), the pitch up (nose up or pulling back the stick) is a common action. Look at the F-16 here...






In this maneuver, if the intake is on the backbone section of the jet, there would be almost no airflow to the intake, choking the engine.

With the B-2, the jet was not designed to have this kind of maneuvers, so for radar cross section (RCS) reduction, the intakes can be located topside.

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## Silicon0000

gambit said:


> It is for 'angle of attack' (AOA).
> 
> In air combat maneuver (ACM), the pitch up (nose up or pulling back the stick) is a common action. Look at the F-16 here...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this maneuver, if the intake is on the backbone section of the jet, there would be almost no airflow to the intake, choking the engine.
> 
> With the B-2, the jet was not designed to have this kind of maneuvers, so for radar cross section (RCS) reduction, the intakes can be located topside.


Thanks


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## Ark_Angel

Karam Ali said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the same feeling about the J31 as I had for the Rafale---. After a few years Paf will say---we did not realize the aircraft would be this good---.
> 
> I for one would like to find out what the shortcomings in the J31 are---because the Paf has claimed to hide behind this answer one too many times and later found out to get egg on their faces---.
> 
> This is also an excuse for a lack of bribe or not enough kick back---and it is also a case of being what the true need is and the true capability of the aircraft---in case of rejecting the Hawkeye in 80's---telling the US it was not worth it---till they later found out how fckd up the Paf's assessment was---.
> 
> Or now going for all the Mirage 3 / 5 all around the world and getting them like there is no tomorrow and yet not going after the Mirage F1---.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong---a mirage 3 /5 upgraded with the right EW package is still a hell of a strike platform-.
> 
> The lack of predictability in the Paf from one CEO to the next CEO is not conducive to the running of a fighting force as to what he is going to do---.


Sir the main reason we didn’t opt for the J-31 till yet is that it has not been commmitted to by the PLAAF/PLAN. After the Project Super-7 experience when the Chinese ditched us at the last moment when they had committed to Buy 200 of the Jets and in the end walked off placed a lot of pressure on PAF Fiscal domain. Along with that numerous other factors have had been a bitter experience for PAF. JF-17 project suffered numerous Timeline delays, Capability gaps due to Chinese backing out. Since we learnt the extremely hard way, PAF will only commit to an A/C duly committed to and inducted with in the Chinese Military Machine. Had it not been for the Thunder experience we could have seen PAF committing to the J-31, but reality struck us hard!

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## fatman17

Ark_Angel said:


> Sir the main reason we didn’t opt for the J-31 till yet is that it has not been commmitted to by the PLAAF/PLAN. After the Project Super-7 experience when the Chinese ditched us at the last moment when they had committed to Buy 200 of the Jets and in the end walked off placed a lot of pressure on PAF Fiscal domain. Along with that numerous other factors have had been a bitter experience for PAF. JF-17 project suffered numerous Timeline delays, Capability gaps due to Chinese backing out. Since we learnt the extremely hard way, PAF will only commit to an A/C duly committed to and inducted with in the Chinese Military Machine. Had it not been for the Thunder experience we could have seen PAF committing to the J-31, but reality struck us hard!


They are going with J20, HST, Pakistan opted for the Super Sabre which morphed into the JF17, which BTW China has not inducted also, so nothing stops the PAF from taking over the FC31 project which is in advanced prototype stage, of course PAF will look to ring changes into this project to configure to its needs and makes absolute sense. why reinvent the wheel aka Project Azm.


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## Ark_Angel

fatman17 said:


> They are going with J20, HST, Pakistan opted for the Super Sabre which morphed into the JF17, which BTW China has not inducted also, so nothing stops the PAF from taking over the FC31 project which is in advanced prototype stage, of course PAF will look to ring changes into this project to configure to its needs and makes absolute sense. why reinvent the wheel aka Project Azm.


Sir that’s what has been mentioned above. China had committed to 200 Super-7s aka JF-17s at the onset of the project. 150 were committed to by the PAF which will now be enlarged to 250. When the Chinese backed out the per unit cost increased along with multiple other factors like commonality of Platform, PLAAF input etc. Which had left PAF in a limbo. There were multitude of other factors which can’t probably be mentioned here. This particular experience has left PAF scarred on not to commit to any Non-PLAAF A/C or any project which is not committed to by their own Military. Cost mitigation being one of the reasons and continuous upgrades by the Chinese for their own Hardware another. Connection to the Chinese Fighter Eco System will be one of the objectives in any future acquisitions be it J-10C or J-20(subject to export) or any other Chinese A/C. Coming over to AZM from the Knowledge that I have, there is a major Chinese Expertise coming in, along with that Turkish and A European Defence Player. PAF is vying for Total independence by this project not dependent on any single country/vendor that’s what Thunder has taught us. Slowly and gradually we aim to reach there. As far as short to medium term timeframe we might see a 5G Plane with us before AZM. AZM is long term.

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## Nasr

The main issue with J-31s is the engines. There cannot be a repeat of what went on during the Thunder development program. China has been working on indigenous engines for quite sometime now, and the anticipation is that their hard work will bare fruit. Whether the J-31's power plant would be ready by the time the aircraft is certified as combat ready, is anyone's guess. However it is imperative that Pakistan Air Force take a decision on whether they want to pursue the J-31 program or not. In my view, the power-plant issue needs resolution. When there is a viable engine, that has a long life-cycle, generates considerable amount of power required for Gen-5 Stealth Aircraft and can be assimilated into Pakistan Aeronautical Complex capacity. Then Pakistan Air Force has the realistic probability to pursue the J-31 program. Besides the power-plant, there is the avionics package, the electronic warfare system and of course the lethality of combat jet, it's missiles. 

I do believe that Pakistan Air Force, investing it's time, experience and funds on the J-31s, sufficiently enough, would come out with a 5th-Gen Stealth Combat Jet, the likes of which even the Shenyang Corporation could conceive. Real war-fighting experience thrown into the mix, is what makes the fighter-jet, lethal. One only has to look at the success story of F-16s, nearly 4000 aircraft manufactured and operated by so many countries.

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## khanasifm

Ark_Angel said:


> Sir that’s what has been mentioned above. China had committed to 200 Super-7s aka JF-17s at the onset of the project. 150 were committed to by the PAF which will now be enlarged to 250. When the Chinese backed out the per unit cost increased along with multiple other factors like commonality of Platform, PLAAF input etc. Which had left PAF in a limbo. There were multitude of other factors which can’t probably be mentioned here. This particular experience has left PAF scarred on not to commit to any Non-PLAAF A/C or any project which is not committed to by their own Military. Cost mitigation being one of the reasons and continuous upgrades by the Chinese for their own Hardware another. Connection to the Chinese Fighter Eco System will be one of the objectives in any future acquisitions be it J-10C or J-20(subject to export) or any other Chinese A/C. Coming over to AZM from the Knowledge that I have, there is a major Chinese Expertise coming in, along with that Turkish and A European Defence Player. PAF is vying for Total independence by this project not dependent on any single country/vendor that’s what Thunder has taught us. Slowly and gradually we aim to reach there. As far as short to medium term timeframe we might see a 5G Plane with us before AZM. AZM is long term.



Nothing of the sort read paf history book it states everything no need for creating dramas


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## Ark_Angel

khanasifm said:


> Nothing of the sort read paf history book it states everything no need for creating dramas


You may continue to believe your literature. I’ll stick to mine. Thanks.


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> You may continue to believe your literature. I’ll stick to mine. Thanks.


JF-17 is not based on previous upgrades of F-7 or super7 projects, its is based on canceled Soviet project of MIG-33 (unrelated to Mig-29 versions) @Ark_Angel


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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> JF-17 is not based on previous upgrades of F-7 or super7 projects, its is based on canceled Soviet project of MIG-33 (unrelated to Mig-29 versions) @Ark_Angel


We are talking about Designation of the Project. JF-17 project designation was altered in 01. Previously it was known as Super-7 in the AF. Period.

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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> We are talking about Designation of the Project. JF-17 project designation was altered in 01. Previously it was known as Super-7 in the AF. Period.


its have roots from super7 project but you're totally wrong after the termination from USA this super7 project was long dead and 1995 China purchase a design of single engine MIG-33 from Russia and JF-17 design based on Mig-33 rather then a super7, you're newbie here you need to research lot about JF-17 project, and last watch you tongue, did i abuse you @Ark_Angel

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## python-000

Dazzler said:


> For PLAN?


I think Pakistan Air Force & Navy need to forget about project AZM & go for J-31 at immediate basses because it will


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## Shabi1

python-000 said:


> I think Pakistan Air Force & Navy need to forget about project AZM & go for J-31 at immediate basses because it will


There is a strong chance that AZM end up being customized J-31. Already acknowledged China is doing Azm airframe work as they have better infrastructure to do it faster and cheaper, Pakistan will do system integration and software part. Even quoted timeline of 2025 for both jets is same.

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## DANGER-ZONE

python-000 said:


> I think Pakistan Air Force & Navy need to forget about project AZM & go for J-31 at immediate basses because it will



Relax, in the end it will surely be either Chinese or Turkish aircraft.
If you turn the clock back 10 years, there was a top secret drone project by PAF called BURRAQ and all the reports suggested that it would be a home grown predator type aircraft and what we got in the end, a Chinese CH-3.

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## Code_Geass

Ark_Angel said:


> You may continue to believe your literature. I’ll stick to mine. Thanks.


Shahid Latif project director JF-17 has said that PLAAF did not participate in JF-17 from the start so why'd they commit numbers?


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## ARMalik

Ark_Angel said:


> We are talking about Designation of the Project. JF-17 project designation was altered in 01. Previously it was known as Super-7 in the AF. Period.



Saying "Period" doesn't mean anything dude. What you are posting has been discussed to death on this Forum, and here you are with you 36th post, and pretending as you have conquered the World and sip tea with ACM and some other shi.t. And for F* sake stop using the word "Super-7" and listen to what the Project Director of JF-17 who happens to be an Air Chief said about this very topic.

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## Deino

Ark_Angel said:


> You may continue to believe your literature. I’ll stick to mine. Thanks.




To admit, then it's the wrong literature.

As mentioned by others, if you look at this program's history, I'm not surprised that some are still confused or even fooled, but what you are claiming - as long as you do not provide fats in the case of reliable sources or books - contradicts everything that is known since years end even discussed to death here.

So please relax, calm down and especially temper your tone.

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## Ark_Angel

ARMalik said:


> Saying "Period" doesn't mean anything dude. What you are posting has been discussed to death on this Forum, and here you are with you 36th post, and pretending as you have conquered the World and sip tea with ACM and some other shi.t. And for F* sake stop using the word "Super-7" and listen to what the Project Director of JF-17 who happens to be an Air Chief said about this very topic.


Mr Malik what’s up with swearing? You better do some research on the project and probably you need some classes on manners as well. *whats up with the upbringing of kids these days!* 
https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...cles/marconi-abandons-fc-1-fighter-bid-53136/
I hope when you were playing with kids in kindergarten there were people like me working on projects like these. Just because I don’t post here doesn’t mean I dont follow this forum. Due to contractual compulsions I couldn’t otherwise I have been following/posting on Pakistani Defence(before it lost its domain) /F-16.net when you were probably in Junior school!
https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...n-agree-on-super-7-fighter-development-53912/
Now go and read the dates and increase your knowledge base! It’s from 1999.

Consequently in 2003 the designation changed to JF-17 Thunder!
https://web.archive.org/web/2014071...articles/sino-pakistani-fighter-flies-170984/

I’ll say this on record again! PAF personnel being deputed to Chengdu China were sent for Project Super 7! The designation of the Project changed in 2003!

@Deino Massive respect for you. I believe your one of the few Credible people left here on Defence.Pk. The designation of the project that I seem to have steered quite a bit of a controversy here was only Regarding how the PAF designated it in their own paper work. International defence Giants( Read Italian FIAR, Marconi,Thomson CSF etc) would respond to tender of FC-1/Super 7 back in the days. Heck even Denel once offered us their AAM in 1999-2000.






Ark_Angel said:


> Mr Malik what’s up with swearing? You better do some research on the project and probably you need some classes on manners as well. *whats up with the upbringing of kids these days!*
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...cles/marconi-abandons-fc-1-fighter-bid-53136/
> I hope when you were playing with kids in kindergarten there were people like me working on projects like these. Just because I don’t post here doesn’t mean I dont follow this forum. Due to contractual compulsions I couldn’t otherwise I have been following/posting on Pakistani Defence(before it lost its domain) /F-16.net when you were probably in Junior school!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...n-agree-on-super-7-fighter-development-53912/
> Now go and read the dates and increase your knowledge base! It’s from 1999.
> 
> Consequently in 2003 the designation changed to JF-17 Thunder!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2014071...articles/sino-pakistani-fighter-flies-170984/
> 
> I’ll say this on record again! PAF personnel being deputed to Chengdu China were sent for Project Super 7! The designation of the Project changed in 2003!
> 
> @Deino Massive respect for you. I believe your one of the few Credible people left here on Defence.Pk. The designation of the project that I seem to have steered quite a bit of a controversy here was only Regarding how the PAF designated it in their own paper work. International defence Giants( Read Italian FIAR, Marconi,Thomson CSF etc) would respond to tender of FC-1/Super 7 back in the days. Heck even Denel once offered us their AAM in 1999-2000.








Ark_Angel said:


> Mr Malik what’s up with swearing? You better do some research on the project and probably you need some classes on manners as well. *whats up with the upbringing of kids these days!*
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...cles/marconi-abandons-fc-1-fighter-bid-53136/
> I hope when you were playing with kids in kindergarten there were people like me working on projects like these. Just because I don’t post here doesn’t mean I dont follow this forum. Due to contractual compulsions I couldn’t otherwise I have been following/posting on Pakistani Defence(before it lost its domain) /F-16.net when you were probably in Junior school!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...n-agree-on-super-7-fighter-development-53912/
> Now go and read the dates and increase your knowledge base! It’s from 1999.
> 
> Consequently in 2003 the designation changed to JF-17 Thunder!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2014071...articles/sino-pakistani-fighter-flies-170984/
> 
> I’ll say this on record again! PAF personnel being deputed to Chengdu China were sent for Project Super 7! The designation of the Project changed in 2003!
> 
> @Deino Massive respect for you. I believe your one of the few Credible people left here on Defence.Pk. The designation of the project that I seem to have steered quite a bit of a controversy here was only Regarding how the PAF designated it in their own paper work. International defence Giants( Read Italian FIAR, Marconi,Thomson CSF etc) would respond to tender of FC-1/Super 7 back in the days. Heck even Denel once offered us their AAM in 1999-2000.





Ark_Angel said:


> Mr Malik what’s up with swearing? You better do some research on the project and probably you need some classes on manners as well. *whats up with the upbringing of kids these days!*
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...cles/marconi-abandons-fc-1-fighter-bid-53136/
> I hope when you were playing with kids in kindergarten there were people like me working on projects like these. Just because I don’t post here doesn’t mean I dont follow this forum. Due to contractual compulsions I couldn’t otherwise I have been following/posting on Pakistani Defence(before it lost its domain) /F-16.net when you were probably in Junior school!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...n-agree-on-super-7-fighter-development-53912/
> Now go and read the dates and increase your knowledge base! It’s from 1999.
> 
> Consequently in 2003 the designation changed to JF-17 Thunder!
> https://web.archive.org/web/2014071...articles/sino-pakistani-fighter-flies-170984/
> 
> I’ll say this on record again! PAF personnel being deputed to Chengdu China were sent for Project Super 7! The designation of the Project changed in 2003!
> 
> @Deino Massive respect for you. I believe your one of the few Credible people left here on Defence.Pk. The designation of the project that I seem to have steered quite a bit of a controversy here was only Regarding how the PAF designated it in their own paper work. International defence Giants( Read Italian FIAR, Marconi,Thomson CSF etc) would respond to tender of FC-1/Super 7 back in the days. Heck even Denel once offered us their AAM in 1999-2000.


@denel

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## BRAVO_

When you’re a nation the size of China, the ability to cover such vast air space becomes much more essential, particularly with China’s maritime military ambitions, while for small ranges, in the presence of J-10, JF-17 does not fit in the chines requirement.

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## The Eagle

In-case if members forgot, _the subject is _

*SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate.*

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## jupiter2007

_Pakistan should come up with AZM fighter design similar to Korean 5th generation fighter._


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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> _Pakistan should come up with AZM fighter design similar to Korean 5th generation fighter._


All 5th Gen jetts gonna look alike brothers and sisters

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> All 5th Gen jetts gonna look alike brothers and sisters


Form follows function. 

Though YF-23 was a trailblazer design.

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## Silicon0000

jupiter2007 said:


> _Pakistan should come up with AZM fighter design similar to Korean 5th generation fighter._



Useless wishlist thing. 

There is no Stealth without internal weapon bay. Only little bit reduced Radar signature. 

Not worthy and not the true 5th Gen. 

Only waste of time and resources like LCA.

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## Syed1.

It cannot be 5th Gen if it has weapons mounted externally

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## GriffinsRule

Syed1. said:


> It cannot be 5th Gen if it has weapons mounted externally


Yea its a LO design, not necessarily all specturm stealth. Still, with recessed weapons on the body instead of internal bays, if it was flying with clean wings, would still be tough to spot and would have a lower RCS than every 4-4.5 gen aircraft. Its a very pragmatic design and probably costs a lot less. When you factor in that most stealth fighters cant carry a meaningful A-G load and will carry weapons on their wings, it makes sense for even a developed nation like SK to design something along these lines for practicality.

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## Quwa

jupiter2007 said:


> _Pakistan should come up with AZM fighter design similar to Korean 5th generation fighter._


Speculation: I think the PAF FGFA design will be similar in concept to the KF-X. You'll notice that the launch version of the KF-X also lacks an internal bay @messiach @Oscar. The PAF seems to be more focused on getting a specific range and payload level up in the air (with a complex line of electronics) than 'stealth'. South Korea was thinking on the same lines.

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## SQ8

Quwa said:


> Speculation: I think the PAF FGFA design will be similar in concept to the KF-X. You'll notice that the launch version of the KF-X also lacks an internal bay @messiach @Oscar. The PAF seems to be more focused on getting a specific range and payload level up in the air (with a complex line of electronics) than 'stealth'. South Korea was thinking on the same lines.


Stealth is relative to detection technology. A F-22 is the size of a hummingbird from some angles because that is the highest spike certain bands of radar will see reflected back.

In the case of the KF-X, it’s possible that the program wants to keep the highest return to the external weapons. So flush mounted missiles could bring the return size down to that of a small drone. 
However, KFC threat spectrum is Chinese and Russian in nature which they may not face the best of hence lower requirementsz

The PAF is likely going to face pretty decent radars so it has to keep its requirements pertinent to that threat.

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## The Eagle

Quwa said:


> Speculation: I think the PAF FGFA design will be similar in concept to the KF-X. You'll notice that the launch version of the KF-X also lacks an internal bay @messiach @Oscar. The PAF seems to be more focused on getting a specific range and payload level up in the air (with a complex line of electronics) than 'stealth'. South Korea was thinking on the same lines.



If you mean NxGF before Azm then I can assume what it may turn out to be i.e. KFX design without internal bays. FC-31 type without side bays may fit well.


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## Quwa

The Eagle said:


> If you mean NxGF before Azm then I can assume what it may turn out to be i.e. KFX design without internal bays. FC-31 type without side bays may fit well.


Well the interesting thing is that the KF-X Block 2 will have internal bays. So, you could design for it, but to save time and cost in the near term, you can skip it. If the PAF can't get additional new F-16s or some other jet, then what other option is there to expedite Azm as a bayless fighter first, and then bring in a bay-version later?

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## The Eagle

Quwa said:


> Well the interesting thing is that the KF-X Block 2 will have internal bays. So, you could design for it, but to save time and cost in the near term, you can skip it. If the PAF can't get additional new F-16s or some other jet, then what other option is there to expedite Azm as a bayless fighter first, and then bring in a bay-version later?



Chief, 
NxGF is what it may looks like, the bayless fighter but having low RCS design and carrying most EW punch to reduce further, as you suggested. AZM may turn out to be the true 5th generation. However, I am only guessing in view of developments and especially Thunder Block-III progress as well validation/tests of different Techs that will help into NxGF.

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## Silicon0000

Quwa said:


> Speculation: I think the PAF FGFA design will be similar in concept to the KF-X. You'll notice that the launch version of the KF-X also lacks an internal bay @messiach @Oscar. The PAF seems to be more focused on getting a specific range and payload level up in the air (with a complex line of electronics) than 'stealth'. South Korea was thinking on the same lines.





Quwa said:


> Well the interesting thing is that the KF-X Block 2 will have internal bays. So, you could design for it, but to save time and cost in the near term, you can skip it. If the PAF can't get additional new F-16s or some other jet, then what other option is there to expedite Azm as a bayless fighter first, and then bring in a bay-version later?



Many are thinking that JF-17 next block will be like KFX. Some are saying Azm fighter is going to be 5+ generation and you are telling them that Azm fighter will be actually a KFX like 5- generation jet


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## Quwa

Silicon0000 said:


> Many are thinking that JF-17 next block will be like KFX. Some are saying Azm fighter is going to be 5+ generation and you are telling them that Azm fighter will be actually a KFX like 5- generation jet


Let's keep expectations low. But the PAF needs this fighter, especially as the likelihood of a jet in the interim is unlikely now. Going less than 5 could also mean getting the jet sooner than later


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## Fawad alam

Quwa said:


> If the PAF can't get additional new F-16s


I pray that PAF will not get addition F16s and we will be forced to utilize all resources to our indigenous program, The new threat of Rafael can be our opportunity for self reliance.

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## MIRauf

Fawad alam said:


> I pray that PAF will not get addition F16s and we will be forced to utilize all resources to our indigenous program, The new threat of Rafael can be our opportunity for self reliance.



A PAF well Wisher will not say that about the PAF & F-16s.

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## S.Y.A

The Eagle said:


> Chief,
> NxGF is what it may looks like, the bayless fighter but having low RCS design and carrying most EW punch to reduce further, as you suggested. AZM may turn out to be the true 5th generation. However, I am only guessing in view of developments and especially Thunder Block-III progress as well validation/tests of different Techs that will help into NxGF.


Damn, I hope that the PAF doesnt go the JF-17 route (short range, light weight, with low load carrying capacity) with the 5th gen aircraft. need to pour everything into the program, need to make a "true" 5th gen aircraft. bayless aircraft would mean a major blunder on part of the PAF.



MIRauf said:


> A PAF well Wisher will not say that about the PAF & F-16s.


More F-16s would mean more money being spent _for_ the said F-16s. If the PAF is serious about the 5th gen plane, then it should forget about additional F-16s. upgrade the existing ones, upgrade the JF-17s, and go for SAMs as well as 5th gen jets.

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## The Eagle

S.Y.A said:


> Damn, I hope that the PAF doesnt go the JF-17 route (short range, light weight, with low load carrying capacity) with the 5th gen aircraft. need to pour everything into the program, need to make a "true" 5th gen aircraft. bayless aircraft would mean a major blunder on part of the PAF.



I did not assume a bayless, low RCS fighter as 5th Generation. NxGF & 5th Gen Azm, were two different ideas from my side. Azm will be real 5th Generation Fighter and NxGF will help bridge the gap between JF-17 Block-III and Azm.


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## S.Y.A

The Eagle said:


> Azm will be real 5th Generation Fighter and NxGF will help bridge the gap between JF-17 Block-III and Azm.


So, essentially, a JF-17 blk 4?


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## MIRauf

S.Y.A, you will not likely see AZM type for another 5/6 years ( prototype. ) Then it being ist revision, you may not see the IP Units for about a decade, that is why PAF needs the F-16s. I am not trying to belittle the JF-17, what latest JF-17 can do F-16 latest can do better ( today's standard ) and PAF deserves better.

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## Haris Ali2140

MIRauf said:


> S.Y.A, you will not likely see AZM type for another 5/6 years ( prototype. ) Then it being ist revision, you may not see the IP Units for about a decade, that is why PAF needs the F-16s. I am not trying to belittle the JF-17, what latest JF-17 can do F-16 latest can do better ( today's standard ) and PAF deserves better.


But what if US doesn't sell F-16s???What then???

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## GreyHat

So, from going to Super-7. Has there been any event where Pakistan approached Grumman for AZM.
If we look at it.Northtop and we were going smoothly until the Presseler Sanctions came in.So, Why not them?
- Second is that if AZM is really eyeing something of YF-23 standards, then who better than Grumman themselves. The original creators of the BLACK WIDOW


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## messiach

That would be a minus.


Quwa said:


> Speculation: I think the PAF FGFA design will be similar in concept to the KF-X. @messiach @Oscar.

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## MIRauf

Harris Ali 2140, Obama Administration had approved the request for 8, so it is very possible that US will sell to PAF, ( Block 52+ likely 72 perhaps. ) $ from Pak side is the hurdle, Pak rejected the last offer to pay full price, but at the end defense is an expensive thing but can you place $ on Freedom ?

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## Chak Bamu

MIRauf said:


> Harris Ali 2140, Obama Administration had approved the request for 8, so it is very possible that US will sell to PAF, ( Block 52+ likely 72 perhaps. ) $ from Pak side is the hurdle, Pak rejected the last offer to pay full price, but at the end defense is an expensive thing but can you place $ on Freedom ?



We could learn from Bangladesh. They have higher growth on back of higher HDI investment. In five years they could be in a position to afford what Pakistan would only dream of.

Defense is expensive, yes; but what good is hardware when HDI is abysmal & future prospects non-existent?

All the talk of 4.5 Gen & 5th Gen is nonsense if it means further dent to the very meager development budget. Rest assured that this is exactly what it would do.

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## Sine Nomine

Chak Bamu said:


> We could learn from Bangladesh. They have higher growth on back of higher HDI investment. In five years they could be in a position to afford what Pakistan would only dream of.
> 
> Defense is expensive, yes; but what good is hardware when HDI is abysmal & future prospects non-existent?
> 
> All the talk of 4.5 Gen & 5th Gen is nonsense if it means further dent to the very meager development budget. Rest assured that this is exactly what it would do.


Pakistan stands at cross roads today,few years from that position,there won't be any coming back.
We have force to deter any aggression,we just need to sit down and think about nation building.
Left overs of East India Company can't think about other than themselves.

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## MIRauf

BD is India's Client state, sure Pak can ride that boat as well and likely can come out on top as well. Freedom has it's $, do you think India will allow BD to have decent military capability ?

I write this as no disrespect to BD, their model suits them well, will it suite Pak ?

I see hard work as salvation of Pakistan, not some quick $ making route that most their like to follow. I have had heard of stories of Arab's pumping $ in business in 70s and motto was roll with it and they will pump more and we don't have to deliver anything, very short term gains by businessmen.

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## Chak Bamu

MIRauf said:


> BD is India's Client state, sure Pak can ride that boat as well and likely can come out on top as well. Freedom has it's $, do you think India will allow BD to have decent military capability ?
> 
> I write this as no disrespect to BD, their model suits them well, will it suite Pak ?
> 
> I see hard work as salvation of Pakistan, not some quick $ making route that most their like to follow. I have had heard of stories of Arab's pumping $ in business in 70s and motto was roll with it and they will pump more and we don't have to deliver anything, very short term gains by businessmen.



You are partly correct. BD had no choice but to become a client state. On my first visit to BD in 2001, I was surprised to see the quantum of Indian products in use. It looked like a market totally captured by India.

But numbers speak louder than first impressions. I have a lot of respect for BD, its people's hard work, & consistency. It is a fit case to demonstrate what is possible when government allows nation's people to work and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

While Pakistan stands up to India at every turn, other SAARC countries keep a very diplomatic attitude. Smaller neighbors of India take advantage of Pakistan's strong stance against Indian hegemony. So, in a sense Pakistan subsidizes other SAARC countries' diplomatic & strategic needs.

But now it is getting to a point where Pakistan can not keep pushing a hard line. The current situation has shown the limits of what is possible for Pakistan. According to some experts, with the current HDI Pakistan's can not grow at more than 4% annually. Periodically a government may push the growth rate above 4%, but the costs are high and subsequently the growth rate dips. Right now GDP growth rate has crashed from around 5.8% in 2017-18 to 2.8% in current FY. The bottleneck is HDI, not security. We could give a strong pushback to India without having to invest in expensive gear. The only way forward is to create markets for military hardware that Pakistan produces (JF-17, Al-Khalid, K-8, various munitions). The only way to support a 5th gen is if it is possible to leverage it economically & strategically. 

There is no point in hankering after expensive gear when Pakistan's internal contradictions are so glaring.

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## Quwa

Chak Bamu said:


> You are partly correct. BD had no choice but to become a client state. On my first visit to BD in 2001, I was surprised to see the quantum of Indian products in use. It looked like a market totally captured by India.
> 
> But numbers speak louder than first impressions. I have a lot of respect for BD, its people's hard work, & consistency. It is a fit case to demonstrate what is possible when government allows nation's people to work and enjoy the fruits of their labor.
> 
> While Pakistan stands up to India at every turn, other SAARC countries keep a very diplomatic attitude. Smaller neighbors of India take advantage of Pakistan's strong stance against Indian hegemony. So, in a sense Pakistan subsidizes other SAARC countries' diplomatic & strategic needs.
> 
> But now it is getting to a point where Pakistan can not keep pushing a hard line. The current situation has shown the limits of what is possible for Pakistan. According to some experts, with the current HDI Pakistan's can not grow at more than 4% annually. Periodically a government may push the growth rate above 4%, but the costs are high and subsequently the growth rate dips. Right now GDP growth rate has crashed from around 5.8% in 2017-18 to 2.8% in current FY. The bottleneck is HDI, not security. We could give a strong pushback to India without having to invest in expensive gear. The only way forward is to create markets for military hardware that Pakistan produces (JF-17, Al-Khalid, K-8, various munitions). The only way to support a 5th gen is if it is possible to leverage it economically & strategically.
> 
> There is no point in hankering after expensive gear when Pakistan's internal contradictions are so glaring.


There's a middle path too. We can properly align military and political needs to the economy, and in turn, build the economy to support the former two.

So, while an aggressive focus on HDI is an option, we have to keep in mind we also made very little or zero investment in developing critical inputs for our military hardware, such as gas turbines, rockets, or semiconductors. Yes, education and facilities are required to achieve it, but you can make select or focused investments there (much like China and Russia do) and push the whole cart up.

Our problem has been that we approached defence in isolation of even its contributing factors. Had we developed the inputs in the 1950s, we could very well have had solid long term exports, perhaps mirror South Korea and Taiwan on both economy and defence spending.

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## CHACHA"G"

@The Eagle , @Horus , @WebMaster , @Dubious 
Why few people turning every defence related thread into economy thread ?


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## The Eagle

CHACHA"G" said:


> @The Eagle , @Horus , @WebMaster , @Dubious
> Why few people turning every defence related thread into economy thread ?



In my opinion, economy plays a major role for defence progress so we can afford a bit of discussion or couple of posts to support our arguments in regard to our acquisitions/force build up and possible route to enhance our defence capability. I do agree to the extent that Economy alone shouldn't be the center of discussion and it can be done only in manners where the relation can be established in specific area/point to argue.

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## Quwa

The Eagle said:


> In my opinion, economy plays a major role for defence progress so we can afford a bit of discussion or couple of posts to support our arguments in regard to our acquisitions/force build up and possible route to enhance our defence capability. I do agree to the extent that Economy alone shouldn't be the center of discussion and it can be done only in manners where the relation can be established in specific area/point to argue.


I agree. In some respects, like the PAF FGFA, they're clearly connected. A big part of the PAF's stated vision with Project Azm is to build a proper aerospace industry. They're aware that the key for high tech acquisitions is to also export high tech solutions, hence the effort to design a fighter locally (a sub industry itself if we think about CAD/CAM expertise, design, testing in wind-tunnels, and in time machine learning, etc) and build as much as possible locally, which brings us to gas turbines, composites, etc.

If we can advance our aerospace, space and nuclear industries to an extent where we can export across each, we won't have to worry about our economy, IMO.

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## The Eagle

Quwa said:


> I agree. In some respects, like the PAF FGFA, they're clearly connected. A big part of the PAF's stated vision with Project Azm is to build a proper aerospace industry. They're aware that the key for high tech acquisitions is to also export high tech solutions, hence the effort to design a fighter locally (a sub industry itself if we think about CAD/CAM expertise, design, testing in wind-tunnels, and in time machine learning, etc) and build as much as possible locally, which brings us to gas turbines, composites, etc.
> 
> If we can advance our aerospace, space and nuclear industries to an extent where we can export across each, we won't have to worry about our economy, IMO.



Can't agree more. Having not so pleasant economic situation; one will have to look at two way road... if you have noticed, I was talking to another member in Mirage thread and I am of the opinion that we do have weak economy but unfortunately, we couldn't supplement that area due to incapable diplomatic forces in past. Yes, the economic issue will become secondary where we have achieved most of inhouse solutions with an exchange of expertise within departments as you mentioned while, the diplomatic forces can be helpful as & when needed. We will needed help for our friends and unlike past; we are now moving ahead. 

FC-31 could have been the choice back then but seems like PAF had our own plans in view of local solutions for the fighter in such category.

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## ziaulislam

Chak Bamu said:


> You are partly correct. BD had no choice but to become a client state. On my first visit to BD in 2001, I was surprised to see the quantum of Indian products in use. It looked like a market totally captured by India.
> 
> But numbers speak louder than first impressions. I have a lot of respect for BD, its people's hard work, & consistency. It is a fit case to demonstrate what is possible when government allows nation's people to work and enjoy the fruits of their labor.
> 
> While Pakistan stands up to India at every turn, other SAARC countries keep a very diplomatic attitude. Smaller neighbors of India take advantage of Pakistan's strong stance against Indian hegemony. So, in a sense Pakistan subsidizes other SAARC countries' diplomatic & strategic needs.
> 
> But now it is getting to a point where Pakistan can not keep pushing a hard line. The current situation has shown the limits of what is possible for Pakistan. According to some experts, with the current HDI Pakistan's can not grow at more than 4% annually. Periodically a government may push the growth rate above 4%, but the costs are high and subsequently the growth rate dips. Right now GDP growth rate has crashed from around 5.8% in 2017-18 to 2.8% in current FY. The bottleneck is HDI, not security. We could give a strong pushback to India without having to invest in expensive gear. The only way forward is to create markets for military hardware that Pakistan produces (JF-17, Al-Khalid, K-8, various munitions). The only way to support a 5th gen is if it is possible to leverage it economically & strategically.
> 
> There is no point in hankering after expensive gear when Pakistan's internal contradictions are so glaring.


our model is to print notes, subsidize the rupee and drop the interest rate..resultant free (loan) money is than pumped into the country resulting infrastructure spending and consumption leading to growth....this than leads to huge fiscal, current deficits, low savings, low local investment than ultimately ends in situation where no one lends us any money..than to avoid bankruptcy we got to IMF with promise of reforms..reforms are partially done but quickly rolled back once we leave IMF and same cycle is repeated....
ironically its done by same people who were in power in one form or another for 30+ years..the push comes from leaders more and *if someone down the line resists they are either fired, or they resign..*

this is whats happening in last 30 years

zero focus on education (we are no different in primary education since 2000 infact our rates have dropped), health(~which should 10-15% of GDP), productivity and exports

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## ZedZeeshan

FC31 Promotional Video.
https://www.xuexi.cn/lgpage/detail/index.html?id=7954007171789412673

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## PakFactor

Any update?


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## Silicon0000

PakFactor said:


> Any update?



No


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## Deino

Silicon0000 said:


> No

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## StructE

These days most predictions regarding main stream products are made by supply chain or filings to financial regulatory bodies, here is one for Chinese Jet Engines.

https://news.yahoo.com/chinas-stealth-fighters-stealth-bombers-070000618.html

The mismatch between airframes and engines could be a drag on the overall performance of Chinese military aircraft.

Perhaps the biggest shortfall is in the production of WS-15s and WS-19s, the custom motors respectively for J-20 stealth fighters and FC-31 export stealth fighters. “Data provided by Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. shows a maximum of only five WS-15 and WS-19 engines each year from 2020 ‘til 2026,” Alert 5 reported.

The first few combat-capable J-20s reportedly entered service in 2017. Flight Global’s survey of all the world’s military aircraft for 2020 listed 15 J-20s in front-line use. J-20s usually appear in public with Russian-made AL-31 motors, which experts consider to be inadequate for the heavy, long-range, supersonic fighter.

Even the up-rated 117S version of the AL-31F “would likely not be sufficient to extract the full performance potential of this advanced airframe,” wrote Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon, analysts with the Air Power Australia think tank.

A dearth of WS-15s could force J-20 regiments to continue flying with AL-31s. Meanwhile it could be difficult for Chinese industry to find buyers for the FC-31 if the plane lacks a custom engine. Prototype FC-31s fly with what appear to be Russian-made RD-93s.

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## Muhammad Omar

Is J-31 Project dead??


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## PakFactor

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is J-31 Project dead??



I believe they had a test flight with a different engine or something but that’s about it. I’m thinking it’s a test bed and they’ll move onto something else seems this is dead.


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## Mrc

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is J-31 Project dead??


Unless PAC wants to partner as jf 17....


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## Silicon0000

Converted/Transitioned into J35 project. 



Muhammad Omar said:


> Is J-31 Project dead??


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## StormBreaker

Silicon0000 said:


> Converted/Transitioned into J35 project.


That’s still a rumor


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## Silicon0000

StormBreaker said:


> That’s still a rumor



In a sense most of the things people believe here can be classified as rumor as very few knows exact details .........

Anyway name change doesn't mean much.

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## StormBreaker

Silicon0000 said:


> In a sense most of the things people believe here can be classified as rumor as very few knows exact details .........
> 
> Anyway name change doesn't mean much.


Is J designation restricted to those fighters that are on way to be inducted and confirmed or already inducted ?

Since FC-31 wasn’t officially titles J-31 so all this J-31 fuss was self made and that the actual thing was to be called J-35 @Deino ?


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## Trailer23

*FC-31 will launch a new version this year, with significant performance upgrades, and a number of technologies surpassing the F-35*

25/01/2020

It has been 8 years since FC-31 flew for the first time. Because it was not accepted by the domestic market, its development focus turned completely abroad. However, since only two verification machines of the FC-31 have been struggling to support them in these 8 years, it was once rumored that the machine has stopped development.







In response to these rumors, Sun Cong, the chief division, has revealed last year that the FC-31 fighter will launch a third verification aircraft in 2020. The aircraft will use a large number of new technologies to ensure combat performance. At the same time, as the performance of the aircraft is greatly upgraded, many technologies are above the F-35, which makes the aircraft more confident in foreign trade.






From the previous air show, the third verification aircraft of the FC-31 fighter will use EOTS. At the same time, the size and space of the built-in bomb bay will also increase. The division of labor between the combat bomb bay and the main bomb bay is clear. More importantly, the 3.0 version of FC-31 will also increase the oil in the fuselage, further increasing the range and combat radius.






In addition to the above, it is also important to note that the new version of the FC-31 seems to also use a new three-sided array radar system. If this is the case, there is no doubt that its situational awareness will directly exceed the F-35, and it will exist as second only to the J-20 in the world.
*
http://www.sohu.com/a/368833916_100185115*

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> *FC-31 will launch a new version this year, with significant performance upgrades, and a number of technologies surpassing the F-35*
> 
> 25/01/2020
> 
> It has been 8 years since FC-31 flew for the first time. Because it was not accepted by the domestic market, its development focus turned completely abroad. However, since only two verification machines of the FC-31 have been struggling to support them in these 8 years, it was once rumored that the machine has stopped development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In response to these rumors, Sun Cong, the chief division, has revealed last year that the FC-31 fighter will launch a third verification aircraft in 2020. The aircraft will use a large number of new technologies to ensure combat performance. At the same time, as the performance of the aircraft is greatly upgraded, many technologies are above the F-35, which makes the aircraft more confident in foreign trade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the previous air show, the third verification aircraft of the FC-31 fighter will use EOTS. At the same time, the size and space of the built-in bomb bay will also increase. The division of labor between the combat bomb bay and the main bomb bay is clear. More importantly, the 3.0 version of FC-31 will also increase the oil in the fuselage, further increasing the range and combat radius.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the above, it is also important to note that the new version of the FC-31 seems to also use a new three-sided array radar system. If this is the case, there is no doubt that its situational awareness will directly exceed the F-35, and it will exist as second only to the J-20 in the world.
> *
> http://www.sohu.com/a/368833916_100185115*


Is this in reference to one of your earlier post reply to me regarding a new variant in 2020 march ? @Stealth


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## Pakistani Fighter

Trailer23 said:


> *FC-31 will launch a new version this year, with significant performance upgrades, and a number of technologies surpassing the F-35*
> 
> 25/01/2020
> 
> It has been 8 years since FC-31 flew for the first time. Because it was not accepted by the domestic market, its development focus turned completely abroad. However, since only two verification machines of the FC-31 have been struggling to support them in these 8 years, it was once rumored that the machine has stopped development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In response to these rumors, Sun Cong, the chief division, has revealed last year that the FC-31 fighter will launch a third verification aircraft in 2020. The aircraft will use a large number of new technologies to ensure combat performance. At the same time, as the performance of the aircraft is greatly upgraded, many technologies are above the F-35, which makes the aircraft more confident in foreign trade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the previous air show, the third verification aircraft of the FC-31 fighter will use EOTS. At the same time, the size and space of the built-in bomb bay will also increase. The division of labor between the combat bomb bay and the main bomb bay is clear. More importantly, the 3.0 version of FC-31 will also increase the oil in the fuselage, further increasing the range and combat radius.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the above, it is also important to note that the new version of the FC-31 seems to also use a new three-sided array radar system. If this is the case, there is no doubt that its situational awareness will directly exceed the F-35, and it will exist as second only to the J-20 in the world.
> *
> http://www.sohu.com/a/368833916_100185115*


Hope this is true
Sir @airomerix is Project Azm related to this?


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## The Eagle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Project Azm



I don't see any side bay as of yet on FC-31 which may predict that FC-31 is not for air superiority at all but tactical strikes only or in other words stealth bomber that will need an escort in-case of hostile interception. AZM will be on par of 5th Gen aircraft that posses the quality to take on air adversary by any given day.

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## Stealth

StormBreaker said:


> Is this in reference to one of your earlier post reply to me regarding a new variant in 2020 march ? @Stealth

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## Akasa

Stealth said:


>



There is no way you could know this information. Sorry if I sound harsh but all "predictions" up to this point are baseless speculations.


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## StormBreaker

Akasa said:


> There is no way you could know this information. Sorry if I sound harsh but all "predictions" up to this point are baseless speculations.


V3 has been in rumors for some years, even though if he made a wild guess, it was a successful one.


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## FuturePAF

Consider the range requirements and thrust limitations of Chinese engines, should we expect the engines to be changed to the WS-10/WS-20 class?


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## Stealth

Akasa said:


> There is no way you could know this information. Sorry if I sound harsh but all "predictions" up to this point are baseless speculations.



Maybe I know one of the people who involve in the project or maybe I have ghosts or maybe I know someone who was a part of this project and still has some links or maybe I am speculating...


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## Silicon0000

Stealth said:


> Maybe I know one of the people who involve in the project or maybe I have ghosts or maybe I know someone who was a part of this project and still has some links or maybe I am speculating...



It's not about knowing him ........ It's more about what he wants you to know ...... Truth or some deception .......


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## StormBreaker

Silicon0000 said:


> It's not about knowing him ........ It's more about what he wants you to know ...... Truth or some deception .......


Ohh come on, you are stretching it.
A person will lose his credibility if he lies for a mere first flight or appearance which is no big deal or something highly critical or classified

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## Silicon0000

StormBreaker said:


> Ohh come on, you are stretching it.
> A person will lose his credibility if he lies for a mere first flight or appearance which is no big deal or something highly critical or classified



Just kidding bro ...... Don't take it seriously.


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## Stealth

Silicon0000 said:


> Just kidding bro ...... Don't take it seriously.



even CIA HQ is not safe when it comes to "highly classified". Information always travels from one to another. You can't protect the information. If for instance there will be no test in March it doesn't mean that whatever I said is wrong might be the information which I have received from someone who was or remain or maybe activity involves or maybe have some links somewhere might be got wrong information or maybe some of the issues cause the delay. We are humans, not GOD!

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## Silicon0000

Stealth said:


> even CIA HQ is not safe when it comes to "highly classified". Information always travels from one to another. You can't protect the information. If for instance there will be no test in March it doesn't mean that whatever I said is wrong might be the information which I have received from someone who was or remain or maybe activity involves or maybe have some links somewhere might be got wrong information or maybe some of the issues cause the delay. We are humans, not GOD!



Bhai Tum to Dil par hi le Gaye. I know you are right dear.


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## python-000

TOPGUN said:


> Looks like the best option for us , lets see what the future holds .


even Pakistan can do changes what ever he want whit the collaboration of China & i think duel engine is not a big problem as we used F-5 before...


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## araz

python-000 said:


> even Pakistan can do changes what ever he want whit the collaboration of China & i think duel engine is not a big problem as we used F-5 before...


I suspect the Chinese(and please understand I do not blame them at all) were unwilling to incorporate changes and more importantly let us produce the product locally. In any case it is a sign of a maturing industry that it stops taking piggy back rides and want to take their steps on their own.It can be argued that the PAC will still need a lot of supporting hands for it to walk but if we can do it it would be a huge leap for us. There is no comparison between a nation who buys a product and another nation who produces products.
A

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## python-000

araz said:


> I suspect the Chinese(and please understand I do not blame them at all) were unwilling to incorporate changes and more importantly let us produce the product locally. In any case it is a sign of a maturing industry that it stops taking piggy back rides and want to take their steps on their own.It can be argued that the PAC will still need a lot of supporting hands for it to walk but if we can do it it would be a huge leap for us. There is no comparison between a nation who buys a product and another nation who produces products.
> A


why not we can convert it into join venture between China & Pakistan as we did it in JF-17 project...

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## araz

python-000 said:


> why not we can convert it into join venture between China & Pakistan as we did it in JF-17 project...


That may well happen. There are however, a few things to consider. 
The Chinese may not want to share next generation technologies acquired through sheer hard work just like that.
Even if they do the costs might be out of our reach. 
Developing technology locally involves setting up newer skills set which mean more jobs locally.
Also there may be more independence in incorporating technologies from 3rd parties which the Chinese might object to for all the right reasons.
However I feel PAF has learnt a bit of ideological independence. Being a proud and confident nation they might want to establish their own mark on their next product. To be fair it is quite a high mark set by PAC for it to achieve. Recent progress especially on repairing the AWACS and possibly rejuvinating the AH1s suggest the PAC is getting closer to achieving its aims.
This remains my thinking. You can disagree with it.
A

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## StormBreaker

araz said:


> That may well happen. There are however, a few things to consider.
> The Chinese may not want to share next generation technologies acquired through sheer hard work just like that.
> Even if they do the costs might be out of our reach.
> Developing technology locally involves setting up newer skills set which mean more jobs locally.
> Also there may be more independence in incorporating technologies from 3rd parties which the Chinese might object to for all the right reasons.
> However I feel PAF has learnt a bit of ideological independence. Being a proud and confident nation they might want to establish their own mark on their next product. To be fair it is quite a high mark set by PAC for it to achieve. Recent progress especially on repairing the AWACS and possibly rejuvinating the AH1s suggest the PAC is getting closer to achieving its aims.
> This remains my thinking. You can disagree with it.
> A


You both are missing a point.
JV isn’t possible now, maybe if it was 2015/2016, then yes but Now ? No.

The new prototype will definitely be the final shape and the All-improved version. Time for development has gone so no more chances for JV. Furthermore, this is not CAC, this is SAC, SAC and PAC don't have much in common. The best they can do for us is providing License production, but ToT is questionable. 

A way we can have JV is taking SAC on tables, FC-31 becomes the base for our next gen platform development and we design and develop a heavily modified FC-31 for PAF


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> That may well happen. There are however, a few things to consider.
> The Chinese may not want to share next generation technologies acquired through sheer hard work just like that.
> Even if they do the costs might be out of our reach.
> Developing technology locally involves setting up newer skills set which mean more jobs locally.
> Also there may be more independence in incorporating technologies from 3rd parties which the Chinese might object to for all the right reasons.
> However I feel PAF has learnt a bit of ideological independence. Being a proud and confident nation they might want to establish their own mark on their next product. To be fair it is quite a high mark set by PAC for it to achieve. Recent progress especially on repairing the AWACS and possibly rejuvinating the AH1s suggest the PAC is getting closer to achieving its aims.
> This remains my thinking. You can disagree with it.
> A





StormBreaker said:


> You both are missing a point.
> JV isn’t possible now, maybe if it was 2015/2016, then yes but Now ? No.
> 
> The new prototype will definitely be the final shape and the All-improved version. Time for development has gone so no more chances for JV. Furthermore, this is not CAC, this is SAC, SAC and PAC don't have much in common. The best they can do for us is providing License production, but ToT is questionable.
> 
> A way we can have JV is taking SAC on tables, FC-31 becomes the base for our next gen platform development and we design and develop a heavily modified FC-31 for PAF


IMO, you have missed some very important points:
1. Are the needs of PAF same as those of PLAN or PLAAF?
2. If JV in FC-31 or others, who leads the project? PLAN? PLAAF? PAF?

In short, which development pattern would PAF choose? Like JF-17, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, or F-16?

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## Haris Ali2140

LKJ86 said:


> IMO, you have missed some very importan points:
> 1. Are the needs of PAF same as those of PLAN or PLAAF?
> 2. If JV in FC-31 or others, who leads the project? PLAN? PLAAF? PAF?
> 
> In short, which development parttern would PAF choose? Like JF-17, Eurofigher Typhoon, F-35, or F-16?



PAF needs a heavyweight, long range and dual engine 5th gen. aircraft as per the req. stated by ex ACM. 

Like F-35 PLAAF will too need a 5th gen. fighter which will form the backbone. There are chances a jet like that will come into PAF.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> IMO, you have missed some very important points:
> 1. Are the needs of PAF same as those of PLAN or PLAAF?
> 2. If JV in FC-31 or others, who leads the project? PLAN? PLAAF? PAF?
> 
> In short, which development pattern would PAF choose? Like JF-17, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, or F-16?


my Bro, I think in this whole scenario J-31 block 2 is the best option for PAF & it is a very capable fighter jet...


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## fatman17

The Chinese are committed to the J20 as their prime 4th gen aircraft and they are ensuring that this is a successful project. at this time J20 is exclusive to China only. Whilst the J31 is a project for the export market and to the Chinese understanding that PAF will be it's first customer. However as usual, the PAF will want substantial modifications to the base model. PAF did it with the F6, A5, F7PG and the JFT. With the Rafale available across the border the PAF planners need to accelerate the Project AZM which could be the incorporation of J31 with western and TFX technologies.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

36 F-31(Chinese) in Pakistani Airforce would have been great addition would have given an extra bite to the airforce

While it may not have been a platform on par with F22 Raptor (USA) , almost 100% not

It would have still added capability and new tactics for Airforce



With Pakistan Airforce committed to Project Azm
And JF17 Block III

I think F-31 may not be joining Pakistani Airforce from looks of how things are rolling
Authorities seem to love projects which turn around in 8-10 years from day of ordering


Pakistan has Suprised the world with their Nuclear Program and Missile Programs , so a surprise in the Stealth Domain is only a matter of time


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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> which could be the incorporation of J31 with western and TFX technologies


Impossible


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## fatman17

LKJ86 said:


> Impossible


Nothing is impossible


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## FuturePAF

fatman17 said:


> The Chinese are committed to the J20 as their prime 4th gen aircraft and they are ensuring that this is a successful project. at this time J20 is exclusive to China only. Whilst the J31 is a project for the export market and to the Chinese understanding that PAF will be it's first customer. However as usual, the PAF will want substantial modifications to the base model. PAF did it with the F6, A5, F7PG and the JFT. With the Rafale available across the border the PAF planners need to accelerate the Project AZM which could be the incorporation of J31 with western and TFX technologies.



Basically Pakistan needs a future proof 5th generation fighter; hence the J-31 won’t be procured until it can at least on paper defeat the F-35 and Su-57. This will require cutting edge Electronics, EW, Data-links, AESA, EOTS, Weapons especially A2A, and a maintenance program that allows maximum availability with minimal maintenance; hence the need for an advancement in baked in Stealth and not RAM coating. Also, the WS-13/WS-19 engine needs to be in the GE-414 class (110-116 kn max thrust) with super-cruise and a long time between overhaul.

How far along is China in these Technologies? Which of these technologies can Pakistan source from other providers (Turkey or Europe) in the case that Chinese sub-systems are not yet mature?


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## fatman17

FuturePAF said:


> Basically Pakistan needs a future proof 5th generation fighter; hence the J-31 won’t be procured until it can at least on paper defeat the F-35 and Su-57. This will require cutting edge Electronics, EW, Data-links, AESA, EOTS, Weapons especially A2A, and a maintenance program that allows maximum availability with minimal maintenance; hence the need for an advancement in baked in Stealth and not RAM coating. Also, the WS-13/WS-19 engine needs to be in the GE-414 class (110-116 kn max thrust) with super-cruise and a long time between overhaul.
> 
> How far along is China in these Technologies? Which of these technologies can Pakistan source from other providers (Turkey or Europe) in the case that Chinese sub-systems are not yet mature?



I agree, but don't underestimate the Chinese. they are making rapid progress in engine technology as well as electronics / avionics etc.

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## GriffinsRule

It can't be the J-31 in its current form. PAF will wait for either the PLAAF and the PLAN to induct the aircraft first. Why should we be the sole customer for an aircraft made by a private company we had no skin in? PAF learned this the hard way as in case people forget, PLAAF was supposed to buy some 150+ JF-17s as well and it would have further reduced the cost per unit and made the aircraft perhaps even more appealing for export early on with both countries being the operators. 
PLAAF and PLAN might have good reason, that are not public, for not buying the J-31 as well. First and foremost among these is perhaps the use of RD-93 in the prototypes and technology demonstrators. There is also the lack of any new prototypes or even general news coming out about the jet so its future seems very tentative.


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## ProudPak

LKJ86 said:


> Impossible


So was the fact you are alive bug there you have it


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## LKJ86

GriffinsRule said:


> It can't be the J-31 in its current form. PAF will wait for either the PLAAF and the PLAN to induct the aircraft first. Why should we be the sole customer for an aircraft made by a private company we had no skin in? PAF learned this the hard way as in case people forget, PLAAF was supposed to buy some 150+ JF-17s as well and it would have further reduced the cost per unit and made the aircraft perhaps even more appealing for export early on with both countries being the operators.
> PLAAF and PLAN might have good reason, that are not public, for not buying the J-31 as well. First and foremost among these is perhaps the use of RD-93 in the prototypes and technology demonstrators. There is also the lack of any new prototypes or even general news coming out about the jet so its future seems very tentative.


You pay more, and will get more.

Besides, FC-31 wasn't showed on Dubai Airshow-2019, meaning that the JV on FC-31 is impossible already, and you would find the maiden flight of the new variant very soon.

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## GriffinsRule

LKJ86 said:


> You pay more, and will get more.
> 
> Besides, FC-31 wasn't showed on Dubai Airshow-2019, meaning that the JV on FC-31 is impossible already, and you would find the maiden flight of the new variant very soon.


Exactly my point. Pakistan is not going to be purchasing any 5th generation aircraft off the shelf. That means no J-20 or J-31. 
We will see collaboration with China, Turkey and any other country Pakistan can get technology, design and manufacturing expertise for the myriad of systems that go into a fighter jet and go from there in designing our next fighter.

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## LKJ86

GriffinsRule said:


> We will see collaboration with China, Turkey and any other country Pakistan can get technology, design and manufacturing expertise for the myriad of systems that go into a fighter jet and go from there in designing our next fighter.


A good choice.

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## aliyusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> Exactly my point. Pakistan is not going to be purchasing any 5th generation aircraft off the shelf. That means no J-20 or J-31.
> We will see collaboration with China, Turkey and any other country Pakistan can get technology, design and manufacturing expertise for the myriad of systems that go into a fighter jet and go from there in designing our next fighter.


True. But in the absence of a full fledged manufacturing and support industry in our country, our first iteration of a 5th gen fighter will have to be heavily based on the existing design & technologies used in J-20/J-31/TFX/etc ... with a lots of TOT.

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## FuturePAF

fatman17 said:


> I agree, but don't underestimate the Chinese. they are making rapid progress in engine technology as well as electronics / avionics etc.



I don’t underestimate the Chinese, but there are certain technologies others have a head start in, which China will catch up in due time. Certain Networking/Data-Link and EW tech Pakistan could buy from Turkey or Europe (especially Sweden if it is open to sell it) could enough far enough ahead that it can make the difference. Link-16 helped a lot for the Feb 27 counter-attack. We need to try to get the best tech from wherever we can, and be the best at integrating it.


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## Ultima Thule

aliyusuf said:


> True. But in the absence of a full fledged manufacturing and support industry in our country, our first iteration of a 5th gen fighter will have to be heavily based on the existing design & technologies used in J-20/J-31/TFX/etc ... with a lots of TOT.


I thinks Project AZM is more research/learning/TOT project, and you're absolute right sir, we have few experience in our hand, like we get TOT from Italy for radar of F-7PG ( Grifo-7) but biggest hurdle will be develop suitable engine for AZM, most probably it will have foreign engine

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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> Certain Networking/Data-Link and EW tech


But what you may not have considered is that they are just what China is good at.

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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> But what you may not have considered is that they are just what China is good at.



It’s possible China has gotten very good at these technologies, and for Pakistan’s sake I hope they have great systems. Any indication where these systems have been battle tested and refined, similar to how the Russians have done in Syria for the last decade?


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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> It’s possible China has gotten very good at these technologies, and for Pakistan’s sake I hope they have great systems. Any indication where these systems have been battle tested and refined, similar to how the Russians have done in Syria for the last decade?


The same weapon would have completetly different performances while used by USA and Saudi Arabia respectively.


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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> The same weapon would have completetly different performances while used by USA and Saudi Arabia respectively.



True, but through field testing some of the limitations, especially in Datalinks and EW can be found. Besides Pakistan, where are Chinese datalinks and EW being used these days?


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## fatman17

FuturePAF said:


> I don’t underestimate the Chinese, but there are certain technologies others have a head start in, which China will catch up in due time. Certain Networking/Data-Link and EW tech Pakistan could buy from Turkey or Europe (especially Sweden if it is open to sell it) could enough far enough ahead that it can make the difference. Link-16 helped a lot for the Feb 27 counter-attack. We need to try to get the best tech from wherever we can, and be the best at integrating it.


Exactly, Pakistan has always incorporated western technology wherever possible when it invests in Chinese platforms whether in the air, sea or land. but with the JF17 program they have been selecting Chinese avionics as their confidence level increases. If you remember in the early days, PAF wanted french radar and missiles but the french government refused citing technology transfer to China by Pakistan. Few decades ago, the Chinese were definitely behind the west but the gap is closing fast.

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> Exactly, Pakistan has always incorporated western technology wherever possible when it invests in Chinese platforms whether in the air, sea or land. but with the JF17 program they have been selecting Chinese avionics as their confidence level increases. If you remember in the early days, PAF wanted french radar and missiles but the french government refused citing technology transfer to China by Pakistan. Few decades ago, the Chinese were definitely behind the west but the gap is closing fast.


Don't we have Western/Turkish EW Pod for JF 17?


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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> where are Chinese datalinks and EW being used these days?


So, in your opinion, what are KJ-500, J-16D, J-20, Type 055 DDG, and so on using?

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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Don't we have Western/Turkish EW Pod for JF 17?


Which one?


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## Pakistani Fighter

LKJ86 said:


> Which one?


I think ALQ 500P from Indra


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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think ALQ 500P from Indra


Can you show the pic?

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## fatman17

Yes, also Russian engine and RSA refuelling pod. We were mainly referring to the radar and missiles.


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Don't we have Western/Turkish EW Pod for JF 17?

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## Deino

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Don't we have Western/Turkish EW Pod for JF 17?




The clear images we have show a KG600.

... but this is all off topic

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## Silicon0000

PAF doctrine is basically based on and in responsive of Indian Capabilities. 

5th Gen AZM fighter capabilities and timelines will be as per Indian developments. 

Whether it's modified J31 or something new that all depends on how much time India give us.


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Don't we have Western/Turkish EW Pod for JF 17?


yes


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think ALQ 500P from Indra


No that a spanish ECM/EW system on block-2


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> and you would find the maiden flight of the new variant very soon.



What do you base your statement on?


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## StormBreaker

LKJ86 said:


> You pay more, and will get more.
> 
> Besides, FC-31 wasn't showed on Dubai Airshow-2019, meaning that the JV on FC-31 is impossible already, and you would find the maiden flight of the new variant very soon.


Any official or rumoured update regarding this ? Will the virus affect this as well ?


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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> Will the virus affect this as well ?


Why do you think it would affect China heavily?

*99 new confirmed cases of coronavirus infection reported on Chinese mainland*
Source: Xinhua | 2020-03-07 09:00:36 | Editor: huaxia

BEIJING, March 7 (Xinhua) -- Chinese health authority said Saturday it received reports of 99 new confirmed cases of novel coronavirus infection and 28 deaths on Friday on the Chinese mainland.

The 28 deaths were all reported in Hubei Province, according to the National Health Commission.

Meanwhile, 99 new suspected cases were reported, said the commission.

*Also on Friday, 1,678 people were discharged from hospital after recovery, while the number of severe cases decreased by 248 to 5,489.*

*The overall confirmed cases on the mainland had reached 80,651 by the end of Friday, including 22,177 patients who were still being treated, 55,404 patients who had been discharged after recovery, and 3,070 people who had died of the disease.*

The commission said that 502 people were still suspected of being infected with the virus.

The commission added 26,730 close contacts were still under medical observation. On Friday, 4,773 people were discharged from medical observation.

Also on Friday, 24 imported cases of novel coronavirus infection were reported on the mainland, including 17 in Gansu Province, three in Beijing, three in Shanghai and one in Guangdong Province. By the end of Friday, 60 imported cases had been reported, said the commission.

By the end of Friday, 107 confirmed cases including two deaths had been reported in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR), 10 confirmed cases in the Macao SAR, and 45 in Taiwan, including one death.

Fifty-one patients in Hong Kong, 10 in Macao and 12 in Taiwan had been discharged from hospital after recovery.

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## Trailer23

*Strong Chinese "heart": Can advanced turbofan 19 drive FC-31 into carrier-based aircraft*

*The Frontier Post*
March 3, 2020

The advanced aero engine is one of the important signs of the highest level of industrial manufacturing in the country, and is called "the pearl in the crown of industrial manufacturing". At present, only a few countries, such as China, the United States, Russia, Britain, and France, are able to independently design and manufacture advanced aviation, and only the United States and Russia have obvious advantages. China has been able to independently develop advanced aviation and apply it to our fighter aircraft, which has always been one of the biggest dreams of the Chinese people.

At present, according to international standards, the advanced “four generations of medium push” engines need to meet a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 10 and an afterburning thrust of 11 tons, which can enable fighter aircraft to achieve ultra-maneuvering and super-cruising requirements. Looking at China, it seems that only turbofan-19 meets these requirements.

Speaking of, China's demand for medium-thrust turbofan engines was initially revealed by drones. Previously, China ’s large unmanned aerial vehicles generally used medium-thrust non-afterburning turbofan engines. At that time, China also introduced the RD-93 engine from Russia for the Phenom fighter. Not suitable for drones, so Guizhou Liyang, one of China ’s aviation development research units, started to develop engines with self-produced Xiaolong fighters based on the RD-93. Turbofan-13 "Taishan" engine.






*RD-93 Engine*​
Li Yang's research and development base is relatively weak, so it decided to invite experienced Jiangyou 624 to develop together. After the turbofan-13 was developed, it was first used on the Dragon, and the non-boosted model was used on the sharp sword drone. It is known that in addition to the dragon and sword, Turbofan-13 was also equipped on Shen Fei's J-31. Like the Dragon, the F-31 used the Russian RD-93 engine.

However, even the improved turbofan-13 has a maximum thrust-to-weight ratio of only 9 and a thrust of only 10 tons, which makes the fighter's combat radius not large enough. This is also considered by many people that the J-31 cannot become the next generation of shipborne Machine reason.





*FC-31 at the Paris Air Show 2019*​
Of course, Shen Fei will not let the J-31 stop at the turbofan-13. Previously, it was reported that 624 with turbofan-13 project successful experience and turbofan-15 engine core machine, designed a new type of powerful Chinese "heart" turbofan in a very short time. -19 "Huangshan". According to data, the turbofan-19 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 11 and a thrust of more than 11 tons, which meets the requirements of "four generations of thrust". So can this "advanced medium push" turbofan 19 promote the J-31 to become a carrier-based aircraft?





*J-31 Prototype*​
At present, the improved F-135 engine of the US F-35 single-engine fighter has a thrust of 21 tons, and the maximum take-off weight of the fighter is 33 tons. If the J-31 twin-engine fighter is equipped with two turbofans -19, its thrust is expected to exceed F-35, the take-off weight of the fighter can reach at least 35 tons. At this time, the combat radius of the J-31 can reach more than 1,200 kilometers, which is enough to ensure the advantages of our aircraft carriers.





*P&W F135 Engine*​
However, some analysts believe that Turbofan-19 still has some way to go to form the combat power for the J-31. Considering that the current Dragon platform is more mature than the J-31, it is very likely that Turbofan-19 will first go to Dragon for verification. In addition, some people think that the J-20 can become the next generation of carrier-based aircraft. However, the J-20 is not designed for the Navy. To convert to a carrier-based aircraft requires extensive changes, which is a huge project. However, no matter where China's next-generation carrier-based aircraft is spent, the step-by-step development of domestic engines such as turbofan-19 is indispensable.

https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2020-03-03/doc-iimxyqvz7379045.shtml

*------------------------------------------------*​
*Foreign media said that China's FC31 war opportunities cannot be sold*

*March 8, 2020*

Recently, the FC31 (J31 aircraft) has begun to test again. Although this aircraft is advanced enough, it has not been favored by the Chinese military and the international market, so far there are only 2 verification aircraft, compared to the 9 of the J-20. There is a big gap between the verification aircraft and the 12 low-volume production models. Ping Kefu, editor-in-chief of the Canadian "Hanhe Defense Review" magazine, even declared that "China's FC-31 aircraft cannot be sold." *Recently, Pakistan announced that it will jointly develop a fifth-generation aircraft with Turkey. In fact, it can be seen that Pakistan Air Force is not ready to introduce the F31 fighter.* Military experts told reporters that there are many reasons why the FC-31 fighter is so embarrassing. The main reason is of course that China already has the J-20, but the secondary reasons are diverse. In addition to market reasons, the FC31 itself also exists. Many problems, if not solved, this aircraft will be difficult to be used in the Chinese military, it is even more difficult to export to other countries.




First of all, the most important problem is the engine problem. The Chinese Air Force does not have a suitable advanced 4th generation mid-thrust engine. The most advanced turbofan 13E has only 9500 kg of thrust, which is only 45% of the F135 engine on the F35 fighter. And the thrust-to-weight ratio is only about 8. Although the two engines can provide 19 tons of thrust, the total weight is about 2300 kg, while the F135 has a weight of less than 1700 kg. This 600 kg is basically equivalent to the air-optimized mode. Carrying capacity. If the FC31 uses two turbofans 13E, not only will it not be able to achieve supersonic cruise, but its air combat capability will also be greatly affected. Even its performance is not as good as the F35 fighter, and it will not be a fifth-generation fighter in the true sense. Unless China can increase the thrust of the turbofan 13E to about 12 tons, then the two engines can provide about 24 tons of thrust for the FC31, which is enough for the FC31 to achieve sufficient flight performance.




The second is demand. The Chinese Air Force already has advanced F-20 fighters and has opened four production lines in the Chengfei Group. It is likely that the annual output can reach 2-3 regiments, and it can be equipped with more than 500 in less than 10 years. The Chinese Navy can completely transform the F-20 fighters onto the ship. Even if some FC31 fighters are needed, in the next 10 years or even 20 years, the Chinese Navy can only have a maximum of 5-6 aircraft carriers and a maximum of about 300 fighters. This number is not many. Unless FC31 is able to export on a large scale, the price of FC31 will inevitably be unacceptably high, which may well exceed US $ 85 million. *Now the export of FC31 can only confirm that Pakistan will buy 2 ~ 3 brigades48 ~ 72 fighters, but China's export price to Pakistan has always been very conscience, and the price of the FC1 "Dragon" is only 20 million US dollars. It is impossible to rely on exports to reduce costs.*




The last is the speed of equipment. The US F35 has begun full production in six countries, and the annual production volume is more than 200. This is mainly because most of the US allies are industrial countries and have the strength of self-produced fighters. However, China does not have a good ally of the industrial countries. The only one that has the capability to produce its own aircraft is Pakistan. Even if China produces at full capacity, it is not possible to impact the global market by the same amount as the United States. In this case, China can only at most Build a batch of FC31s for your country and Pakistani army. In addition, maybe some local tyrants in the Middle East will come to buy a few.

In summary, although FC31 is not behind, it is still difficult to sell a good sales figure in the international market, but as one of the first generation of China's fifth-generation fighter, the significance of FC31 need not be questioned.

https://www.hotbak.net/key/中国FC31战机是否全面落后F35专家只说了四个字FC31新浪军事.html

@LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Beast

Reactions: Like Like:
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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> *Strong Chinese "heart": Can advanced turbofan 19 drive FC-31 into carrier-based aircraft*
> 
> *The Frontier Post*
> March 3, 2020
> 
> The advanced aero engine is one of the important signs of the highest level of industrial manufacturing in the country, and is called "the pearl in the crown of industrial manufacturing". At present, only a few countries, such as China, the United States, Russia, Britain, and France, are able to independently design and manufacture advanced aviation, and only the United States and Russia have obvious advantages. China has been able to independently develop advanced aviation and apply it to our fighter aircraft, which has always been one of the biggest dreams of the Chinese people.
> 
> At present, according to international standards, the advanced “four generations of medium push” engines need to meet a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 10 and an afterburning thrust of 11 tons, which can enable fighter aircraft to achieve ultra-maneuvering and super-cruising requirements. Looking at China, it seems that only turbofan-19 meets these requirements.
> 
> Speaking of, China's demand for medium-thrust turbofan engines was initially revealed by drones. Previously, China ’s large unmanned aerial vehicles generally used medium-thrust non-afterburning turbofan engines. At that time, China also introduced the RD-93 engine from Russia for the Phenom fighter. Not suitable for drones, so Guizhou Liyang, one of China ’s aviation development research units, started to develop engines with self-produced Xiaolong fighters based on the RD-93. Turbofan-13 "Taishan" engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *RD-93 Engine*​
> Li Yang's research and development base is relatively weak, so it decided to invite experienced Jiangyou 624 to develop together. After the turbofan-13 was developed, it was first used on the Dragon, and the non-boosted model was used on the sharp sword drone. It is known that in addition to the dragon and sword, Turbofan-13 was also equipped on Shen Fei's J-31. Like the Dragon, the F-31 used the Russian RD-93 engine.
> 
> However, even the improved turbofan-13 has a maximum thrust-to-weight ratio of only 9 and a thrust of only 10 tons, which makes the fighter's combat radius not large enough. This is also considered by many people that the J-31 cannot become the next generation of shipborne Machine reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FC-31 at the Paris Air Show 2019*​
> Of course, Shen Fei will not let the J-31 stop at the turbofan-13. Previously, it was reported that 624 with turbofan-13 project successful experience and turbofan-15 engine core machine, designed a new type of powerful Chinese "heart" turbofan in a very short time. -19 "Huangshan". According to data, the turbofan-19 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 11 and a thrust of more than 11 tons, which meets the requirements of "four generations of thrust". So can this "advanced medium push" turbofan 19 promote the J-31 to become a carrier-based aircraft?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *J-31 Prototype*​
> At present, the improved F-135 engine of the US F-35 single-engine fighter has a thrust of 21 tons, and the maximum take-off weight of the fighter is 33 tons. If the J-31 twin-engine fighter is equipped with two turbofans -19, its thrust is expected to exceed F-35, the take-off weight of the fighter can reach at least 35 tons. At this time, the combat radius of the J-31 can reach more than 1,200 kilometers, which is enough to ensure the advantages of our aircraft carriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *P&W F135 Engine*​
> However, some analysts believe that Turbofan-19 still has some way to go to form the combat power for the J-31. Considering that the current Dragon platform is more mature than the J-31, it is very likely that Turbofan-19 will first go to Dragon for verification. In addition, some people think that the J-20 can become the next generation of carrier-based aircraft. However, the J-20 is not designed for the Navy. To convert to a carrier-based aircraft requires extensive changes, which is a huge project. However, no matter where China's next-generation carrier-based aircraft is spent, the step-by-step development of domestic engines such as turbofan-19 is indispensable.
> 
> https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2020-03-03/doc-iimxyqvz7379045.shtml
> 
> *------------------------------------------------*​
> *Foreign media said that China's FC31 war opportunities cannot be sold*
> 
> *March 8, 2020*
> 
> Recently, the FC31 (J31 aircraft) has begun to test again. Although this aircraft is advanced enough, it has not been favored by the Chinese military and the international market, so far there are only 2 verification aircraft, compared to the 9 of the J-20. There is a big gap between the verification aircraft and the 12 low-volume production models. Ping Kefu, editor-in-chief of the Canadian "Hanhe Defense Review" magazine, even declared that "China's FC-31 aircraft cannot be sold." *Recently, Pakistan announced that it will jointly develop a fifth-generation aircraft with Turkey. In fact, it can be seen that Pakistan Air Force is not ready to introduce the F31 fighter.* Military experts told reporters that there are many reasons why the FC-31 fighter is so embarrassing. The main reason is of course that China already has the J-20, but the secondary reasons are diverse. In addition to market reasons, the FC31 itself also exists. Many problems, if not solved, this aircraft will be difficult to be used in the Chinese military, it is even more difficult to export to other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, the most important problem is the engine problem. The Chinese Air Force does not have a suitable advanced 4th generation mid-thrust engine. The most advanced turbofan 13E has only 9500 kg of thrust, which is only 45% of the F135 engine on the F35 fighter. And the thrust-to-weight ratio is only about 8. Although the two engines can provide 19 tons of thrust, the total weight is about 2300 kg, while the F135 has a weight of less than 1700 kg. This 600 kg is basically equivalent to the air-optimized mode. Carrying capacity. If the FC31 uses two turbofans 13E, not only will it not be able to achieve supersonic cruise, but its air combat capability will also be greatly affected. Even its performance is not as good as the F35 fighter, and it will not be a fifth-generation fighter in the true sense. Unless China can increase the thrust of the turbofan 13E to about 12 tons, then the two engines can provide about 24 tons of thrust for the FC31, which is enough for the FC31 to achieve sufficient flight performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second is demand. The Chinese Air Force already has advanced F-20 fighters and has opened four production lines in the Chengfei Group. It is likely that the annual output can reach 2-3 regiments, and it can be equipped with more than 500 in less than 10 years. The Chinese Navy can completely transform the F-20 fighters onto the ship. Even if some FC31 fighters are needed, in the next 10 years or even 20 years, the Chinese Navy can only have a maximum of 5-6 aircraft carriers and a maximum of about 300 fighters. This number is not many. Unless FC31 is able to export on a large scale, the price of FC31 will inevitably be unacceptably high, which may well exceed US $ 85 million. *Now the export of FC31 can only confirm that Pakistan will buy 2 ~ 3 brigades48 ~ 72 fighters, but China's export price to Pakistan has always been very conscience, and the price of the FC1 "Dragon" is only 20 million US dollars. It is impossible to rely on exports to reduce costs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last is the speed of equipment. The US F35 has begun full production in six countries, and the annual production volume is more than 200. This is mainly because most of the US allies are industrial countries and have the strength of self-produced fighters. However, China does not have a good ally of the industrial countries. The only one that has the capability to produce its own aircraft is Pakistan. Even if China produces at full capacity, it is not possible to impact the global market by the same amount as the United States. In this case, China can only at most Build a batch of FC31s for your country and Pakistani army. In addition, maybe some local tyrants in the Middle East will come to buy a few.
> 
> In summary, although FC31 is not behind, it is still difficult to sell a good sales figure in the international market, but as one of the first generation of China's fifth-generation fighter, the significance of FC31 need not be questioned.
> 
> https://www.hotbak.net/key/中国FC31战机是否全面落后F35专家只说了四个字FC31新浪军事.html
> 
> @LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Beast


Is hotbak a defence website ? @LKJ86 @Beast Or is this just another fanboy/patriot article ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Beast

Trailer23 said:


> *Strong Chinese "heart": Can advanced turbofan 19 drive FC-31 into carrier-based aircraft*
> 
> *The Frontier Post*
> March 3, 2020
> 
> The advanced aero engine is one of the important signs of the highest level of industrial manufacturing in the country, and is called "the pearl in the crown of industrial manufacturing". At present, only a few countries, such as China, the United States, Russia, Britain, and France, are able to independently design and manufacture advanced aviation, and only the United States and Russia have obvious advantages. China has been able to independently develop advanced aviation and apply it to our fighter aircraft, which has always been one of the biggest dreams of the Chinese people.
> 
> At present, according to international standards, the advanced “four generations of medium push” engines need to meet a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 10 and an afterburning thrust of 11 tons, which can enable fighter aircraft to achieve ultra-maneuvering and super-cruising requirements. Looking at China, it seems that only turbofan-19 meets these requirements.
> 
> Speaking of, China's demand for medium-thrust turbofan engines was initially revealed by drones. Previously, China ’s large unmanned aerial vehicles generally used medium-thrust non-afterburning turbofan engines. At that time, China also introduced the RD-93 engine from Russia for the Phenom fighter. Not suitable for drones, so Guizhou Liyang, one of China ’s aviation development research units, started to develop engines with self-produced Xiaolong fighters based on the RD-93. Turbofan-13 "Taishan" engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *RD-93 Engine*​
> Li Yang's research and development base is relatively weak, so it decided to invite experienced Jiangyou 624 to develop together. After the turbofan-13 was developed, it was first used on the Dragon, and the non-boosted model was used on the sharp sword drone. It is known that in addition to the dragon and sword, Turbofan-13 was also equipped on Shen Fei's J-31. Like the Dragon, the F-31 used the Russian RD-93 engine.
> 
> However, even the improved turbofan-13 has a maximum thrust-to-weight ratio of only 9 and a thrust of only 10 tons, which makes the fighter's combat radius not large enough. This is also considered by many people that the J-31 cannot become the next generation of shipborne Machine reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FC-31 at the Paris Air Show 2019*​
> Of course, Shen Fei will not let the J-31 stop at the turbofan-13. Previously, it was reported that 624 with turbofan-13 project successful experience and turbofan-15 engine core machine, designed a new type of powerful Chinese "heart" turbofan in a very short time. -19 "Huangshan". According to data, the turbofan-19 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 11 and a thrust of more than 11 tons, which meets the requirements of "four generations of thrust". So can this "advanced medium push" turbofan 19 promote the J-31 to become a carrier-based aircraft?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *J-31 Prototype*​
> At present, the improved F-135 engine of the US F-35 single-engine fighter has a thrust of 21 tons, and the maximum take-off weight of the fighter is 33 tons. If the J-31 twin-engine fighter is equipped with two turbofans -19, its thrust is expected to exceed F-35, the take-off weight of the fighter can reach at least 35 tons. At this time, the combat radius of the J-31 can reach more than 1,200 kilometers, which is enough to ensure the advantages of our aircraft carriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *P&W F135 Engine*​
> However, some analysts believe that Turbofan-19 still has some way to go to form the combat power for the J-31. Considering that the current Dragon platform is more mature than the J-31, it is very likely that Turbofan-19 will first go to Dragon for verification. In addition, some people think that the J-20 can become the next generation of carrier-based aircraft. However, the J-20 is not designed for the Navy. To convert to a carrier-based aircraft requires extensive changes, which is a huge project. However, no matter where China's next-generation carrier-based aircraft is spent, the step-by-step development of domestic engines such as turbofan-19 is indispensable.
> 
> https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2020-03-03/doc-iimxyqvz7379045.shtml
> 
> *------------------------------------------------*​
> *Foreign media said that China's FC31 war opportunities cannot be sold*
> 
> *March 8, 2020*
> 
> Recently, the FC31 (J31 aircraft) has begun to test again. Although this aircraft is advanced enough, it has not been favored by the Chinese military and the international market, so far there are only 2 verification aircraft, compared to the 9 of the J-20. There is a big gap between the verification aircraft and the 12 low-volume production models. Ping Kefu, editor-in-chief of the Canadian "Hanhe Defense Review" magazine, even declared that "China's FC-31 aircraft cannot be sold." *Recently, Pakistan announced that it will jointly develop a fifth-generation aircraft with Turkey. In fact, it can be seen that Pakistan Air Force is not ready to introduce the F31 fighter.* Military experts told reporters that there are many reasons why the FC-31 fighter is so embarrassing. The main reason is of course that China already has the J-20, but the secondary reasons are diverse. In addition to market reasons, the FC31 itself also exists. Many problems, if not solved, this aircraft will be difficult to be used in the Chinese military, it is even more difficult to export to other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, the most important problem is the engine problem. The Chinese Air Force does not have a suitable advanced 4th generation mid-thrust engine. The most advanced turbofan 13E has only 9500 kg of thrust, which is only 45% of the F135 engine on the F35 fighter. And the thrust-to-weight ratio is only about 8. Although the two engines can provide 19 tons of thrust, the total weight is about 2300 kg, while the F135 has a weight of less than 1700 kg. This 600 kg is basically equivalent to the air-optimized mode. Carrying capacity. If the FC31 uses two turbofans 13E, not only will it not be able to achieve supersonic cruise, but its air combat capability will also be greatly affected. Even its performance is not as good as the F35 fighter, and it will not be a fifth-generation fighter in the true sense. Unless China can increase the thrust of the turbofan 13E to about 12 tons, then the two engines can provide about 24 tons of thrust for the FC31, which is enough for the FC31 to achieve sufficient flight performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second is demand. The Chinese Air Force already has advanced F-20 fighters and has opened four production lines in the Chengfei Group. It is likely that the annual output can reach 2-3 regiments, and it can be equipped with more than 500 in less than 10 years. The Chinese Navy can completely transform the F-20 fighters onto the ship. Even if some FC31 fighters are needed, in the next 10 years or even 20 years, the Chinese Navy can only have a maximum of 5-6 aircraft carriers and a maximum of about 300 fighters. This number is not many. Unless FC31 is able to export on a large scale, the price of FC31 will inevitably be unacceptably high, which may well exceed US $ 85 million. *Now the export of FC31 can only confirm that Pakistan will buy 2 ~ 3 brigades48 ~ 72 fighters, but China's export price to Pakistan has always been very conscience, and the price of the FC1 "Dragon" is only 20 million US dollars. It is impossible to rely on exports to reduce costs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last is the speed of equipment. The US F35 has begun full production in six countries, and the annual production volume is more than 200. This is mainly because most of the US allies are industrial countries and have the strength of self-produced fighters. However, China does not have a good ally of the industrial countries. The only one that has the capability to produce its own aircraft is Pakistan. Even if China produces at full capacity, it is not possible to impact the global market by the same amount as the United States. In this case, China can only at most Build a batch of FC31s for your country and Pakistani army. In addition, maybe some local tyrants in the Middle East will come to buy a few.
> 
> In summary, although FC31 is not behind, it is still difficult to sell a good sales figure in the international market, but as one of the first generation of China's fifth-generation fighter, the significance of FC31 need not be questioned.
> 
> https://www.hotbak.net/key/中国FC31战机是否全面落后F35专家只说了四个字FC31新浪军事.html
> 
> @LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Beast


IMHO, the reason for slow speed of FC-31 is lack of advance spec. Not becos Shenyang can't meet it under AVIC but many tech used on J-20 have not approved for export. Therefore the demonstrator flown during Zuhai airshow are disappointing in terms of capabilities for prospect of export customers. Since J-20 are far superior than FC-31, there are no domestic demand for such aircraft. Making it a very dead project.

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## StormBreaker

Beast said:


> IMHO, the reason for slow speed of FC-31 is lack of advance spec. Not becos Shenyang can't meet it under AVIC but many tech used on J-20 have not approved for export. Therefore the demonstrator flown during Zuhai airshow are disappointing in terms of capabilities for prospect of export customers. Since J-20 are far superior than FC-31, there are no domestic demand for such aircraft. Making it a very dead project.


Except for design, i guess FC-31 lags behind from other 5th Gen Fighters in terms of Advanced Sensor Fusion, Situational Awareness, Modern Cockpit and SuperCruise


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> IMHO, the reason for slow speed of FC-31 is lack of advance spec. Not becos Shenyang can't meet it under AVIC but many tech used on J-20 have not approved for export. Therefore the demonstrator flown during Zuhai airshow are disappointing in terms of capabilities for prospect of export customers. Since J-20 are far superior than FC-31, there are no domestic demand for such aircraft. Making it a very dead project.


FC-31 V1 and V2 should be called SAC's technology demonstrators...

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 V1 and V2 should be called SAC's technology demonstrators...


Shenyang boast a lot of things but not without CPC approval first of the things they promise.

Iran once showed interest in JH-8F and JH-7A export version a decade ago with Shenyang and Xian promise a lot of things , only to be disappointed when re-export of certain tech are forbidden by CPC higher level. Iran in the end, loses interest as they would not settle for less than what they will promise earlier.

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## StormBreaker

Beast said:


> Shenyang boast a lot of things but not without CPC approval first of the things they promise.
> 
> Iran once showed interest in JH-8F and JH-7A export version a decade ago with Shenyang and Xian promise a lot of things , only to be disappointed when re-export of certain tech are forbidden by CPC higher level. Iran in the end, loses interest as they would not settle for less than what they will promise earlier.


Why is SAC looked down in terms of export ? They do get local orders for Flankers but rarely do they get a chance to export...

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## Beast

StormBreaker said:


> Why is SAC looked down in terms of export ? They do get local orders for Flankers but rarely do they get a chance to export...


Their design team is very conservative. Being pioneer in China aviation history, they do have protection or retain some privilege from CPC. That is why they got a huge order from CPC to keep them sustainable.

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## StormBreaker

Beast said:


> Their design team is very conservative. Being pioneer in China aviation history, they do have protection or retain some privilege from CPC. That is why they got a huge order from CPC to keep them sustainable.


What are some export achievements of SAC ?


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Shenyang boast a lot of things but not without CPC approval first of the things they promise.


At least, SAC's J-11B, J-11BS, and J-16 make WS-10 mature finally.


----------



## Beast

StormBreaker said:


> What are some export achievements of SAC ?


F-6. Clone of Mig-19



LKJ86 said:


> At least, SAC's J-11B, J-11BS, and J-16 make WS-10 mature finally.


I wouldn't call that an achievement but rather failure since the time taken is so long.


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> I wouldn't call that an achievement but rather failure since the time taken is so long.


There is no short cut in developing engines. Otherwise, you have to copy AL-31F engine or others all the time.

Besides, SAC has done lots of work similar to those of NASA in aviation. Maybe China should consider to break up SAC, and founds China's NASA in aviation.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> There is no short cut in developing engines. Otherwise, you have to copy AL-31F engine or others all the time.
> 
> Besides, SAC has done lots of work similar to those of NASA in aviation. Maybe China should consider to break up SAC, and founds China's NASA in aviation.


They do copy the AL-31FN(Improve version), remember there is an CCTV documentary 2-3 years talking about technician making parts for engine of J-20, only to be taken down just a week after posted. Its no secret China do reverse engineer AL-31FN engine(With better parts) but concurrently running WS-10 engine series to compete /compliment each others to improve China aero-engine industries. China has never even send back a single AL-31FN engine back to Russia to overhaul for more than a decade.


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> They do copy the AL-31FN(Improve version), remember there is an CCTV documentary 2-3 years talking about technician making parts for engine of J-20, only to be taken down just a week after posted. Its no secret China do reverse engineer AL-31FN engine(With better parts) but concurrently running WS-10 engine series to compete /compliment each others to improve China aero-engine industries. China has never even send back a single AL-31FN engine back to Russia to overhaul for more than a decade.


So what? WS-10 would replace all of them finally.

WS-10 can be called AECC's "J-10".

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> So what? WS-10 would replace all of them finally.


Yes, I guess WS-10B max 14500kg thrust finally surpass any possible upgrade of the legacy of AL-31FN.


----------



## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> There is no short cut in developing engines. Otherwise, you have to copy AL-31F engine or others all the time.
> 
> Besides, SAC has done lots of work similar to those of NASA in aviation. Maybe China should consider to break up SAC, and founds China's NASA in aviation.



Hi,

So true---manufacturing a capable high performance fighter jet engine is one of the most difficult engineering accomplishments of any engineering industrial megaplex---.

USA UK France Russia only 4 primary producers---. Even Germany---Italy---Sweden Israel South Africa not in the run---.

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> USA UK France Russia only 4 primary producers---. Even Germany---Italy---Sweden Israel South Africa not in the run---.


And only USA, Russia, and China are producting engines as the same class of WS-10.

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## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> And only USA, Russia, and China are producing engines as the same class of WS-10.



Hi,

It is a great accomplishment of chinese engineering industrial complex to successfully reach this stage of performance for the fighter aircraft engines---.


----------



## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is a great accomplishment of chinese engineering industrial complex to successfully reach this stage of performance for the fighter aircraft engines---.


AECC's WS-10 is just as AVIC's J-10. And AECC has to work harder for its "J-20","FC-31", "Y-20", and so on.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Cookie Monster

LKJ86 said:


> And only USA, Russia, and China are producting engines as the same class of WS-10.


Since WS10 has been in development(with newer variants) and used on various platforms for a long time now...I assume the reliability has significantly improved...

According to recent news China is going to produce J15(which is powered by WS10) and other Chinese jets that traditionally relied on AL31 are also now being made with WS10. Does anyone know the current TBO of WS10? Or better yet is there information available on how TBO of WS10 has improved over time?


----------



## araz

Cookie Monster said:


> Since WS10 has been in development(with newer variants) and used on various platforms for a long time now...I assume the reliability has significantly improved...
> 
> According to recent news China is going to produce J15(which is powered by WS10) and other Chinese jets that traditionally relied on AL31 are also now being made with WS10. Does anyone know the current TBO of WS10? Or better yet is there information available on how TBO of WS10 has improved over time?


I dont know where I read this and please feel free to rubbish the news. The Chinese floated their company on the stock exchange. As a part of this they had to provide details of the work they will be doing. In the summary they wrote that till 2025 they will not be producing more than 5 engines every year. It seems that, if this is true the Chinese are on the verge of a breakthrough but it cannot be translated into mass production. This is the most critical stage of engine development where you continuously produce engines of high quality. it seems that the Chinese have achieved results but want to ensure they maintain quality while mass producing these engines.
A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> In the summary they wrote that till 2025 they will not be producing more than 5 engines every year. It seems that, if this is true the Chinese are on the verge of a breakthrough but it cannot be translated into mass production. This is the most critical stage of engine development where you continuously produce engines of high quality. it seems that the Chinese have achieved results but want to ensure they maintain quality while mass producing these engines.


Do you mean WS-15?


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## Cookie Monster

araz said:


> I dont know where I read this and please feel free to rubbish the news. The Chinese floated their company on the stock exchange. As a part of this they had to provide details of the work they will be doing. In the summary they wrote that till 2025 they will not be producing more than 5 engines every year. It seems that, if this is true the Chinese are on the verge of a breakthrough but it cannot be translated into mass production. This is the most critical stage of engine development where you continuously produce engines of high quality. it seems that the Chinese have achieved results but want to ensure they maintain quality while mass producing these engines.
> A


Which company were they going to privatize? They have multiple state owned enterprises that are involved in engine development...
...also only 5 engines being produced a year? Like a specific type I assume...WS15 perhaps(since that's still under development for J20). It seems unlikely that this applies to all the jet engines...WS10 is used to power Chinese flankers and J10C...so they must be churning those out at more than 5 a year.

Could u provide more details about this rumor? Like which engine? Which company?


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## araz

Cookie Monster said:


> Which company were they going to privatize? They have multiple state owned enterprises that are involved in engine development...
> ...also only 5 engines being produced a year? Like a specific type I assume...WS15 perhaps(since that's still under development for J20). It seems unlikely that this applies to all the jet engines...WS10 is used to power Chinese flankers and J10C...so they must be churning those out at more than 5 a year.
> 
> Could u provide more details about this rumor? Like which engine? Which company?


As age advances, my memory goes. I read it somewhere but cannot remember where. I will try and find the article and post it.
A



LKJ86 said:


> Do you mean WS-15?


My friend as I said earlier I cannot remember where I read it. As soon as I find it I will post the article.
A

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## Silicon0000

I am not sure but if I remember correctly it is some internship guy report about WS15 parts producing company or something like that and that number could be a batch number. Lots of debate has been done on it on PDF some thread maybe some engine thread so if someone do the search can find it.



araz said:


> I dont know where I read this and please feel free to rubbish the news. The Chinese floated their company on the stock exchange. As a part of this they had to provide details of the work they will be doing. In the summary they wrote that till 2025 they will not be producing more than 5 engines every year. It seems that, if this is true the Chinese are on the verge of a breakthrough but it cannot be translated into mass production. This is the most critical stage of engine development where you continuously produce engines of high quality. it seems that the Chinese have achieved results but want to ensure they maintain quality while mass producing these engines.
> A





LKJ86 said:


> Do you mean WS-15?





Cookie Monster said:


> Which company were they going to privatize? They have multiple state owned enterprises that are involved in engine development...
> ...also only 5 engines being produced a year? Like a specific type I assume...WS15 perhaps(since that's still under development for J20). It seems unlikely that this applies to all the jet engines...WS10 is used to power Chinese flankers and J10C...so they must be churning those out at more than 5 a year.
> 
> Could u provide more details about this rumor? Like which engine? Which company?





araz said:


> As age advances, my memory goes. I read it somewhere but cannot remember where. I will try and find the article and post it.
> A
> 
> 
> My friend as I said earlier I cannot remember where I read it. As soon as I find it I will post the article.
> A


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> As age advances, my memory goes. I read it somewhere but cannot remember where. I will try and find the article and post it.
> A
> 
> 
> My friend as I said earlier I cannot remember where I read it. As soon as I find it I will post the article.
> A





Silicon0000 said:


> I am not sure but if I remember correctly it is some internship guy report about WS15 parts producing company or something like that and that number could be a batch number. Lots of debate has been done on it on PDF some thread maybe some engine thread so if someone do the search can find it.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...ews-discussions.111471/page-810#post-11962113

@fatman17
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-68#post-11979150

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## capricorn5192

araz said:


> I dont know where I read this and please feel free to rubbish the news. The Chinese floated their company on the stock exchange. As a part of this they had to provide details of the work they will be doing. In the summary they wrote that till 2025 they will not be producing more than 5 engines every year. It seems that, if this is true the Chinese are on the verge of a breakthrough but it cannot be translated into mass production. This is the most critical stage of engine development where you continuously produce engines of high quality. it seems that the Chinese have achieved results but want to ensure they maintain quality while mass producing these engines.
> A



I have also read it on pdf, will try to find the link


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## Trailer23

*Is this a J-31/FC-31 in PLAAF livery  ?*





Apologies if its a J-20.

There is also a video (_but in Chinese_). At Timestamp 3:20, they talk about the Pakistan Air Force.

@LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Beast @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> *Is this a J-31/FC-31 in PLAAF livery  ?*
> 
> View attachment 616146​
> Apologies if its a J-20.
> 
> There is also a video (_but in Chinese_). At Timestamp 3:20, they talk about the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> @LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Beast @Bilal Khan (Quwa)




No, ... it is NOT a J-31 simply since none such type exist! PERIOD.

It is however the second FC-31 prototype - most often labeled FC-31V2 - painted in grey but from some info I have, this image is already from late-2018.


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> prototype


I think it should be called a technology demonstrator.

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> No, ... it is NOT a J-31 simply since none such type exist! PERIOD.
> 
> It is however the second FC-21 prototype - most often labeled FC-31V2 - painted in grey but from some info I have, this image si already from late-2018.


Okay, Mr. INT'L MOD. There really isn't the need to put the word '_Period_' in CAPS, if you've already used '!' to convey your message.

Now in regard to if there is a type referred to as a 'J-31' could be argumentative based on the information provided by Wikipedia (below)...







Notice how _Mr. Yongling_ referred to it as J-31...

Now I have no clue as to what is a *FC-21* (as you've pointed out above).

And i'm certainly not disputing if it was or wasn't taken in late-2018. But even if it was, one would wonder why has it all of a sudden popped up on the .net (now). I mean _if it is from 2018_, is there any evidence to link it to that particular year in time?


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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, Mr. INT'L MOD. There really isn't the need to put the word '_Period_' in CAPS, if you've already used '!' to convey your message.
> 
> Now in regard to if there is a type referred to as a 'J-31' could be argumentative based on the information provided by Wikipedia (below)...
> 
> View attachment 616183
> 
> 
> Notice how _Mr. Yongling_ referred to it as J-31...
> 
> Now I have no clue as to what is a *FC-21* (as you've pointed out above).
> 
> And i'm certainly not disputing if it was or wasn't taken in late-2018. But even if it was, one would wonder why has it all of a sudden popped up on the .net (now). I mean _if it is from 2018_, is there any evidence to link it to that particular year in time?




Pardon, if you rate my post as offensive but I would not use Wiki to proof a wrong designation. For example, the Type 002 carrier is still labeled Type 001A and Type 003 = 002 ... so much on Wiki 

The FC-21 is a stupid typo. Sorry for that.

As for why this only popped up now, I don't know but allegedly the photographer decided only to post it now ... maybe we should ask him.

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> ... so much on Wiki


How 'bout FlightGlobal...?
https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...upbeat-note-about-fc-31-report/133476.article

Are they getting 'J-31' wrong too. Not that I care what designation is given officially by the Chinese, Pakistani's OR NATO.

My inquiry was purely inquisitive about the Photo I picked up from the .net earlier today.


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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> How 'bout FlightGlobal...?
> https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...upbeat-note-about-fc-31-report/133476.article
> 
> Are they getting 'J-31' wrong too. Not that I care what designation is given officially by the Chinese, Pakistani's OR NATO.
> 
> My inquiry was purely inquisitive about the Photo I picked up from the .net earlier today.



In short, YES that report written by my old friend Greg Waldron has a minor error: J-31 is wriong, and there si nothing to debate.

As for that image again: It was posted in two minor cut-out parts already I think last year in September but allegedly - as per original photographer - already taken in 2018. Why it was published only now, I don't know, I wasn't able to ask the original source, but in short to answer your question: 






NO, it is not a J-31 nor a FC-31 in PLAAF livery. Most likely - at least from what I heard - it is only the painted FC-31's second revised demonstrator (thanks @LKJ86 for the correction). IMO it has the typical FC-31-logo on its tail as shown on the models, but not yet the PLAAF symbol. 






Sorry again if my post was rated offensive, it was not meant that way, and also if I wasn't able to answer your question, but that's what I know ... and again, there is no J-31 regardless what certain press releases post.

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## Trailer23

https://infografis.sindonews.com/ph...jet-tempur-stealth-untuk-indonesia-1585434672

@Indos


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## Indos

Trailer23 said:


> https://infografis.sindonews.com/ph...jet-tempur-stealth-untuk-indonesia-1585434672
> 
> @Indos



I think that is only wish list from that newspaper reporter who make that graphic. He/she literally just make a suggestion to Indonesian Airforce to make FC 31 as alternative for future acquisition.

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## Akasa

New photos of the repainted FC-31 2.0 in flight have been released. If the PAF ends up selecting this fighter, this is what they'll most likely look like in service, of course with a PAF roundel.

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## graphican

Akasa said:


> New photos of the repainted FC-31 2.0 in flight have been released. If the PAF ends up selecting this fighter, this is what they'll most likely look like in service, of course with a PAF roundel.
> 
> View attachment 624616
> 
> View attachment 624617



If FC-31 is selected, will it be in the place of indigenous project Azam?


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## Trailer23

Akasa said:


> New photos of the repainted FC-31 2.0 in flight have been released. If the PAF ends up selecting this fighter, this is what they'll most likely look like in service, of course with a PAF roundel.


If you scroll up on Post #2704, you'll find your 2nd image is taken from a different by clearer angle in the exact same spot.

So technically - this picture is pretty old.

Can't comment on the first one where the FC-31 is in air.


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## LKJ86

Via @钢铁机机 from Weibo

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> A lot of composites... also, appears to be not that small.. medium category?
> 
> Interesting would be know the weapons bay capacity and how much feul it can carry....
> 
> With overall advancement in the Chinese electronics ...J31 can leverage a lot of mature things from J20 as well.
> 
> Would be nice if PAC is at least a study partner in this project.... Production techniques of medium weight stealth fighter are different than JF Blk3, I guess.
> 
> Keep us posted @LKJ86


It has always been medium category sir, if you didn’t knew it.

It will host 2 RD-93 category engines (WS-13E/WS-19)



Trailer23 said:


> How 'bout FlightGlobal...?
> https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...upbeat-note-about-fc-31-report/133476.article
> 
> Are they getting 'J-31' wrong too. Not that I care what designation is given officially by the Chinese, Pakistani's OR NATO.
> 
> My inquiry was purely inquisitive about the Photo I picked up from the .net earlier today.


Just for info sake,
FlightGlobal people are nill in terms of chinese knowledge... Many a times, I have found their articles with typos and bogus info.



Akasa said:


> New photos of the repainted FC-31 2.0 in flight have been released. If the PAF ends up selecting this fighter, this is what they'll most likely look like in service, of course with a PAF roundel.
> 
> View attachment 624616
> 
> View attachment 624617


@Deino Still no EOTS mounted, HUD on the first one, Seems similar to Block 3.

Makes me wonder deeply, Who manufactures HUD ? Does CAC and SAC have their own models ?

Coz the one on J-10C and the one on J-20, both aren't similar to Block 3, so we have 3 different HUDs. So, SAC makes HUDS, Any images of the latest models ? Coz if the HUD is from SAC (Least likely as Thunder is a CAC product but still possible since PAC is involved), That would mean SAC and PAC are cooperating, What if Block 3 or the Thunder program might have something to do with FC-31 in the future ? Like sort of a testbed or maybe future collaboration with FC-31 being the interim fighter to counter the meteor threat and a possible super sukhoi upgrade with K-77s ?

And since China is already working on PL-21 (Miniaturized RAMJET for Internal Bays), This would be useful for FC-31 as well. And since PAF apparently is only stuck at 50 Block 3s, doesn’t explain how they can wait till at least 2035-38 before inducting AZM. Mirage upgrade is for Ground roles but something stealthy to country S-400, Meteor and Super sukhoi....

Maybe AZM Project could have a NGF in the long term but a licensed FC-31 FGFA in the short term, 2 types of fighters, Hands on experience of operating and upgrading/producing Fifth gen fighter (FC-31) before AZM NGFA.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @aliyusuf @Blacklight @Mangus Ortus Novem @araz 

Quote my post in the PAF thread so as to keep this thread clean

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## Pakistani Fighter

The Width of the weapon bay looks similar to J20



StormBreaker said:


> something stealthy to country S-400, Meteor and Super sukhoi....


Going for FC31 will make India go towards SU57 or F35


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## StormBreaker

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> The Width of the weapon bay looks similar to J20
> 
> 
> Going for FC31 will make India go towards SU57 or F35


Don’t start here, i said paf Thread.

India won’t be in a position to go for them any time soon. Coming times for indian economy are disastrous, Enemy is breaking from inside, Write that


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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> @Deino Still no EOTS mounted, HUD on the first one, Seems similar to Block 3.


It is just a technology demonstrator, just like that of J-20:










StormBreaker said:


> Makes me wonder deeply, Who manufactures HUD ? Does CAC and SAC have their own models ?


CAC and SAC don't product HUD.

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## Trailer23

StormBreaker said:


> Makes me wonder deeply, Who manufactures HUD ? Does CAC and SAC have their own models ?


The *'Aurora' EHUD-2* is a product of *AVIC* itself which we're expecting to be on the Block III.




Not sure 'bout the *J-10* & *J-20* or *FC-31*. But I think that might fall under AVIC too.




Just so that you know, *SAC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation)* is a subsidiary of *AVIC* too. So they're actually one big happy family.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> It has always been medium category sir, if you didn’t knew it.
> 
> It will host 2 RD-93 category engines (WS-13E/WS-19)
> 
> 
> Just for info sake,
> FlightGlobal people are nill in terms of chinese knowledge... Many a times, I have found their articles with typos and bogus info.
> 
> 
> @Deino Still no EOTS mounted, HUD on the first one, Seems similar to Block 3.
> 
> Makes me wonder deeply, Who manufactures HUD ? Does CAC and SAC have their own models ?
> 
> Coz the one on J-10C and the one on J-20, both aren't similar to Block 3, so we have 3 different HUDs. So, SAC makes HUDS, Any images of the latest models ? Coz if the HUD is from SAC (Least likely as Thunder is a CAC product but still possible since PAC is involved), That would mean SAC and PAC are cooperating, What if Block 3 or the Thunder program might have something to do with FC-31 in the future ? Like sort of a testbed or maybe future collaboration with FC-31 being the interim fighter to counter the meteor threat and a possible super sukhoi upgrade with K-77s ?
> 
> And since China is already working on PL-21 (Miniaturized RAMJET for Internal Bays), This would be useful for FC-31 as well. And since PAF apparently is only stuck at 50 Block 3s, doesn’t explain how they can wait till at least 2035-38 before inducting AZM. Mirage upgrade is for Ground roles but something stealthy to country S-400, Meteor and Super sukhoi....
> 
> Maybe AZM Project could have a NGF in the long term but a licensed FC-31 FGFA in the short term, 2 types of fighters, Hands on experience of operating and upgrading/producing Fifth gen fighter (FC-31) before AZM NGFA.
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @aliyusuf @Blacklight @Mangus Ortus Novem @araz
> 
> Quote my post in the PAF thread so as to keep this thread clean


Don't get caught up on whether Project AZM is/can be FC-31, TF-X, etc. 

Ultimately, the PAF will work with a big industrial power -- i.e., China -- (just as Korea relies on the US) to source the most difficult/complex parts of the fighter.

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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Don't get caught up on whether Project AZM is/can be FC-31, TF-X, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, the PAF will work with a big industrial power -- i.e., China -- (just as Korea relies on the US) to source the most difficult/complex parts of the fighter.


So,it will be some kind of a JV like with the JF-17?

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## HRK

T-123456 said:


> So,it will be some kind of a JV like with the JF-17?


no most probably sort of JAS-39 Gripen production model, where Design and IP will be ours but some of subcomponents from allied countries would be acquired to fetch benefit of some of the existing technical and production infrastructure to keep cost down and to keep the project feasible in terms of Technology and Finance ....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> So,it will be some kind of a JV like with the JF-17?





HRK said:


> no most probably sort of JAS-39 Gripen production model, where Design and IP will be ours but some of subcomponents from allied countries would be acquired to fetch benefit of some of the existing technical and production infrastructure to keep cost down and to keep the project feasible in terms of Technology and Finance ....


It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).


Do we have cabalility to make Radar, Cockpit, EW for a new Fighter?


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Do we have cabalility to make Radar, Cockpit, EW for a new Fighter?


Remember bro we have a TOT for Griffo-7 radars from Itlay so at least we have some basic know how to how to develop a radars but he is talking about JV


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## Syntage

JV is the best option for timely completion of this project without compromising its capabilities.
The question here is this, are we going to put all the equipments and components of chinese origin or PAF has any western tech in mind via Turkey?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Trailer23

I don't care if PAF has a shot at getting this jet.

I just want to see it fly. Make some progress. I'd be a waste if it came this far and become one of those unfinished projects.

As SAC belongs to AVIC..., big brother needs to pump some money into this project.

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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> As SAC belongs to AVIC..., big brother needs to pump some money into this project.


CAC also belongs to AVIC.


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## Trailer23

LKJ86 said:


> CAC also belongs to AVIC.


Yeah, but we're talking about SAC & the FC-31 on this Topic.

I really like this jet. Okay, its no J-20, but still as someone who likes jets, i've been disappointed as no progress has been seen for months/years.

Even (some) Chinese Media Outlets seem to have given up on the FC-31.


----------



## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> i've been disappointed as no progress has been seen for months/years.


I think you are really hurt by Turkey
Just kidding!


Trailer23 said:


> Even (some) Chinese Media Outlets seem to have given up on the FC-31.


When J-20 is put into mass production, you would find the progress of J-XX from the media.
PLAAF and PLAN need to get feedback from J-20 to develop J-XX.

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## Trailer23

LKJ86 said:


> I think you are really hurt by Turkey
> Just kidding!


I don't follow...

Honestly, I don't.

What does Turkey have to do with FC-31?


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## FuturePAF

For stealth coatings to stay effective (due to making ease of maintenance quicker) the Chinese will have to adopt baked in stealth and move away from coatings.



https://imgur.com/j98hikP

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...rumbling-radar-absorbent-skin-are-fascinating

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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> I don't follow...
> 
> Honestly, I don't.
> 
> What does Turkey have to do with FC-31?


Turkey shows so many beautiful mockups...


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## Trailer23

LKJ86 said:


> Turkey shows so many beautiful mockups...


Okay, but what did Turkey have to do with my personal interest in the FC-31 and its progress?

I think you might be confusing my interest in the Gray Falcon with your displeasure towards the Turks and their future endeavors.

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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> I think you might be confusing my interest in the Gray Falcon with your displeasure towards the Turks and their future endeavors.


No no no
I am waiting for TF-X, Hürjet, new engines, and so on.
No offense


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## Trailer23

LKJ86 said:


> No no no
> I am waiting for TF-X, Hürjet, new engines, and so on.
> No offense


None taken.

I'm not Turkish.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).


Does seem like it. Local research and “Reinventing the wheel” requires billions of dollars for studies...

And if that is the case, AZM may very well be a thing by 2030 (That means quick)



FuturePAF said:


> For stealth coatings to stay effective (due to making ease of maintenance quicker) the Chinese will have to adopt baked in stealth and move away from coatings.
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/j98hikP
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...rumbling-radar-absorbent-skin-are-fascinating


J-20 is a mystery in that terms but most experts claim that it has simple coatings instead of baked in coating.

Plus, Baked in coating even though are quite successful for stealth, increase the maintenance costs significantly

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## FuturePAF

StormBreaker said:


> Does seem like it. Local research and “Reinventing the wheel” requires billions of dollars for studies...
> 
> And if that is the case, AZM may very well be a thing by 2030 (That means quick)
> 
> 
> J-20 is a mystery in that terms but most experts claim that it has simple coatings instead of baked in coating.
> 
> Plus, Baked in coating even though are quite successful for stealth, increase the maintenance costs significantly



The increased cost is something China is probably willing to accept, if it gets results. 

With experience, they may find ways to bring down the costs enough that it will offset by reduced maintenance costs. 

If they can apply the technology to other vehicles in their military, including ships and 4th gen aircraft, and even some munitions like cruise missiles, they could significantly reduce maintenance personnel and equipment, and see a leaner fighting force sooner. 

not to mention that they can increase sortie rates as planes can turnaround quicker and they would need less aircraft to be available in an area of operation.

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## StormBreaker

FuturePAF said:


> The increased cost is something China is probably willing to accept, if it gets results.


I have heard China had hard times getting its hands on baked in stealth tech, It is quite different from normal coatings...

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## FuturePAF

StormBreaker said:


> I have heard China had hard times getting its hands on baked in stealth tech, It is quite different from normal coatings...



Its worth the investment in R&D. (I've edited my post above to list some examples)

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).


Smart way to go...
Now we need some level heads in PA as well to follow same model for every mass produced item rather than off the shelf buying even if its expensive its worth it given the amount of local economy involved

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## IblinI

Here is a gem thread from a notable member who works in the related defense sector talking about our navy's stealth fighter and many more.(Sorry it is only in Chinese)
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2461769-1-1.html


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## PeacefulWar

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, but we're talking about SAC & the FC-31 on this Topic.
> 
> I really like this jet. Okay, its no J-20, but still as someone who likes jets, i've been disappointed as no progress has been seen for months/years.
> 
> Even (some) Chinese Media Outlets seem to have given up on the FC-31.


I guess PLAAF already have J-20 so they are not interested.
PLAN need lighter 5th fighters for AC but I guess they don't have much faith on SAC. That's why J-31 can't find funding for further progress.
SAC never designed its own fighter before after all.

If my memory serves me well, SAC's senior management team had been replaced by much younger successors last year because of the poor performance.
This maybe bring some changes. China definitely want to maintain two or more high performance team for competition.

That's only my personal thoughts.

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## khanasifm

PeacefulWar said:


> I guess PLAAF already have J-20 so they are not interested.
> PLAN need lighter 5th fighters for AC but I guess they don't have much faith on SAC. That's why J-31 can't find funding for further progress.
> SAC never designed its own fighter before after all.
> 
> If my memory serves me well, SAC's senior management team had been replaced by much younger successors last year because of the poor performance.
> This maybe bring some changes. China definitely want to maintain two or more high performance team for competition.
> 
> That's only my personal thoughts.




Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
Number that can have an Impact


If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31


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## FuturePAF

khanasifm said:


> Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?
> 
> today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
> Number that can have an Impact
> 
> 
> If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31



If the WS-15 engine comes online at the expected performance level of 180 kn in full reheat, that technology can be applied to the WS-19 engine project for the J-31 ; approx. max reheat with similar tech maybe near 120-130 kn. Two WS-19 engines could be powerful enough to allow the J-31 design to be competitive with the naval F-35 (F-35 B and F-35C) as well as the F-18, while still allowing the carriers to operate enough fighters to be a match for the Ford Class carriers.

It does indeed come town to the engines


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## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?


20


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## Ultima Thule

khanasifm said:


> Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?
> 
> today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
> Number that can have an Impact
> 
> 
> If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31


J20 is already in operationalize. In PLAAF
With interim engine 20 already in service


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## PeacefulWar

khanasifm said:


> Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?
> 
> today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
> Number that can have an Impact
> 
> 
> If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31


Currently 28 J-20 are in service. What do you mean only f-22 and f-35 are operational?
I don't agree.
Even 1 sqn of 5th gen fighters can make huge compact.

Chinese engines are on the edge of breaking through. Single engine J-10C switched to WS-10 showed great confidence.
But engine is the most high tech component in aviation, it needs money, talents and patient. To reach USA level, it needs at least 15+ years.

In short, engine is relatively weak point but not a show stopper at all.

J-20 to replace Mirage? Interesting


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## Trailer23

I accidentally posted this article in the wrong Topics. Must've been pretty late at nite. Anyways, incase some may have missed it...


Trailer23 said:


> ehh... Guys, I don't know Chinese, but this vid was recently uploaded on *sina*.
> 
> Link to video: https://k.sina.cn/article_5941687237_m16226f3c503300ri9v.html
> 
> Translation: *"Sea Four Generations" finally appeared! FC-31 is a positive result ...
> *
> *<-------------------------------------------------------->*​
> *FC-31 will soon become a carrier-based aircraft?
> The fuselage usher in major changes, painted in navy gray!*​
> All along, the debate about who is the fourth generation of stealth carrier aircraft in China between the F-20 and FC31 is enduring. However, recently the FC31 Falcon verification machine suddenly appeared in a new coat. Could it be that China stealth carrier aircraft The battle finally came to fruition?
> 
> Judging from the photos exposed this time, there is still a considerable gap between the current FC31 Falcon Eagle verification machine and the true carrier-based aircraft standard. When the Falcon Eagle debuted, people found that the front landing gear of this verification machine used a two-wheel structure. This design can allow the fighter to withstand more descent rates, and it is indeed convenient for the ship to transform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if you want to become a carrier-based aircraft, you don't just need to modify the landing gear. Take the wing, for example, due to the limited hangar and deck space of the aircraft carrier, the fighter wing needs to have a folding function to save space. The exposure of the Falcon verification machine can be clearly seen. Segment flaps are not two-stage flaps designed to facilitate folding.
> 
> The second is the wing area. If you want to put the fighter on board, there is an indicator that is very important, that is, the landing speed, or the stability of low altitude and low speed. Due to the limited length of the aircraft carrier deck, the distance that can be left for the carrier aircraft to decelerate is very short. They all rely on the blocking cable to force the carrier aircraft to slow down.
> 
> However, the pulling force that the blocking cable and the carrier aircraft can withstand is also limited. As we all know, the higher the speed, the greater the kinetic energy carried by the object. This requires that the landing speed of the carrier aircraft cannot be too fast, otherwise the blocking cable will be broken. Or the body of the carrier aircraft itself.
> 
> And if the stability at low altitude and low speed is good, it is more convenient for the pilot to control the landing of the aircraft more smoothly.
> 
> The most critical point for slowing down the landing speed of the fighter is to increase the lift. At present, there are two methods. For the conventional layout carrier aircraft such as Falcon, it is to increase the wing area. The other is the use of duck wing aircraft, fighters with duck wings have better innate low-speed performance. For example, the prototype of China's J-15 fighter, Su 33, is Su 27 to add a pair of winglets to increase the lift of the head to reduce the landing speed.
> 
> Taking the US F35 fighter as an example, the US Navy increased the wing area of the basic model F35A fighter from 42.7 square meters to 57.6 square meters in order to allow the F35 fighter to board the ship, which is 30% more. This is the US Navy ’s F35c fighter. .
> 
> Another point lies in the side magazine. Currently, the Falcon verification machine that is publicly disclosed generally does not have a side magazine design, which means that it cannot be hung on short-range air-to-air missiles. The US Navy F35c carrier aircraft also does not have a side magazine. This leads to F35c if you want to mount AIM9x fighting bullets, you must use an external rack, which is extremely inconvenient and not to mention, it will also destroy stealth performance.
> 
> The Falcon itself, as a twin-engine medium engine, takes up too much space on its two engines, and its belly magazine capacity is limited. If there is no side magazine, the weapons that it can mount will be greatly reduced. At the same time, the engine is also a big problem. If the Falcon verification machine can meet the above conditions for becoming a carrier-based aircraft, it will inevitably have a consequence that the weight of the fighter will increase significantly.
> 
> Taking the US F35 as an example, the empty weight of its basic model F35A is only about 13.1 tons, while the empty weight of the F35c fighter as a carrier aircraft suddenly increased to 15.6 tons, which is more than 2.5 tons! According to public information, the Falcon Verifier has an empty weight of 12.5 tons. If the above improvements are made, the weight may not be lower than F35c.
> 
> But the problem is that the Falcon Eagle currently uses the Russian RD93 engine, and the single thrust is only about 8.3 tons, while the F35c fighter ’s F135 engine has a single thrust of more than 18 tons, which means that the thrust of the two Falcon eagle engines together It ’s no match for the F35c. Now the mobility of the F35 series of fighters has been questioned. Unless the Falcon replaces the engine with a higher thrust, its mobility will only be worse than that of the F35c.
> 
> In fact, judging from these conditions, the J-20 is indeed more suitable for boarding than the Falcon. Its changes are also the smallest. The J-20 magazine is large enough, the fuel tank is large enough, and the low-altitude and low-speed performance is also very good. Improvements in landing gear and corrosion protection are required.
> 
> In general, Brother Hu believes that if you want to transform the current Falcon verification machine into a qualified carrier-based aircraft, one needs to increase the wing area while allowing the wings to fold, and the other is to need a larger For the magazine, the third is to replace the engine with greater thrust. Taking into account the range problem, it is even necessary to enlarge the structure of the fuselage to ensure sufficient internal oil space.
> 
> However, after such an improvement, I am afraid that Falcon will bid farewell to the positioning of the mid-size aircraft. This is the case with the F35c fighter opposite the ocean. Although it is a single release, its maximum take-off weight has reached 31.8 tons, which is almost the same as the J-15. There is nothing wrong with the heavy machine. So the question is, after such a big change, can Falcon Eagle be called Falcon Eagle? (Shun)
> 
> https://new.qq.com/omn/20200422/20200422A05UJG00.html?pc


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## Trailer23

*




*​*Which of J-20 and FC-31 will become the fourth generation of the sea? Maybe everyone is wrong! Not both of these? *
3rd May, 2020

Which of J-20 and FC-31 will become the fourth generation of the sea? Maybe everyone is wrong. The fourth generation of the sea may be *J-18* or *J-31*, but it will never be J-20 and FC-31.

Today, an old-fashioned and revisited topic is the controversy of the four generations of the Hai. Since the introduction of the direct deck large aircraft carrier project, the battle between the four generations of the sea has not stopped. Basically, they are focused on the two stealth fighters, the J-20 and the FC-31.

In fact, according to observers, this statement itself is wrong.

Even if the J-20 is changed to a carrier aircraft, it will not be called the J-20 after it is changed out. The FC-31 is simply not the number of our military fighter, the export model, and there is no contentious.

The true so-called Sea IV battle is between Cheng Fei and Shen Fei. *Whether the Sea IV is called J-18 or J-31 has not yet been determined.* The key now is to see whether the news of the first sea IV will come from Shen Fe Cheng Fei.




​
The person who believed in Shen Fei bet on the magic change of FC-31. Recently, a new low-visibility FC-31 photo of the Air Force is still full of expectations, but the model of this photo is not yet Shipborne models.

The reason for Xin Chengfei is mainly the success of the J-20. Unbelievers always think that the J-20 is too large.

Regardless of whether the J-20 or FC-31 is on board, *it requires a magical modification of the aircraft type*. The difference between the carrier-based aircraft and the land-based fighter is quite large.

Great adjustments should be made in the strength of the fuselage to adapt to the impact of short take-off and landing.

*Corrosion resistance must also withstand certain salt spray corrosion.*

From the current situation, the current J-20 and FC-31 still under development do not meet these requirements.

In fact, for Cheng Fei and Shen Fei, Cheng Fei's advantage lies in the successful development of stealth fighter J-20, with stealth fighter research and development experience. *Shen Fei's advantage lies in the development of the J-15, which has experience in research and development of carrier-based aircraft.*

Don't forget, no matter whether it is Shen Fei or Cheng Fei, they are all owned by AVIC. The high probability is that two experienced engineers work together to develop their respective strengths and finally provide our navy with a brand-new advanced carrier-based aircraft.

*In fact, you can also refer to Lockheed Martin ’s F-35 fighter. Although the F-35 is said to be produced by Loma, Northrop Grumman, who produced the B-2, also participated in it. In addition, The participation of British BAE companies is also relatively deep.*

Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman are two completely American aviation companies. They can develop the F-35 together. Cheng Fei and Shen Fei, both of which are affiliated with AVIC, are almost There is no dispute.

Of course, in the end, the factory in the North and South factories produced the fourth generation of the sea, and it was up to the design scheme to satisfy the Navy.

At this point, observers are still faithful. After all, the Xiaolong, J-10, and J-20 developed by Cheng Fei in recent years are all original works that are handy. Shen Fei's originality is indeed weaker.

https://www.sohu.com/a/392811546_100145046


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## GreyHat

Shenyang FC-31(V3) Prototype.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258298572572745730

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## Deino

GreyHat said:


> Shenyang FC-31(V3) Prototype.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258298572572745730




Nope ... it's just V2


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258303238396403717


Trailer23 said:


> ...​Which of J-20 and FC-31 will become the fourth generation of the sea? Maybe everyone is wrong. The fourth generation of the sea may be *J-18* or *J-31*, but it will never be J-20 and FC-31.
> ....
> https://www.sohu.com/a/392811546_100145046




Pardon, but the J-18 designation is so much ridiculous that it makes the whole article unreliable.


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## GreyHat

Deino said:


> Nope ... it's just V2


How the number sequence goes in the Serial no. given. Is the first 3 letters "310" are for Project 310 or first two letters for "31" for FC-31/J-31.
Additionally, assuming J-35 comes in as a successor for J-31, is it more a title name or will it be displayed on Serial no. as well, making it a TEDBF?


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## Deino

GreyHat said:


> How the number sequence goes in the Serial no. given. Is the first 3 letters "310" are for Project 310 or first two letters for "31" for FC-31/J-31.
> Additionally, assuming J-35 comes in as a successor for J-31, is it more a title name or will it be displayed on Serial no. as well, making it a TEDBF?




That's the question since we have only one number confirmed. Most likely 31001 means Project 310 No. 01 aircraft and as such many expect the second one - aka second flying to be precisely - to be numbered 31002. It could however be that the second aircraft is in fact a static airframe and so this one could indeed be 310003 even if it is still the well known FC-31V2.

As for the J-31, which is often rumored to be the third flying prototype I don't know... if it is indeed called J-35 then I expect a 4-digit serial like this one we know on the first J-16 prototype. If I should wage a guess I would say let's wait 3501.

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## Khanivore

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258331343269789696


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## LKJ86

Khanivore said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258331343269789696


FC-31 V1 and V2 are just technology demonstrators, similar to these ones:

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 V1 and V2 are just technology demonstrators, similar to these ones:
> View attachment 630441
> View attachment 630442




Indeed and so do this one too. But I must apologise again.... It is indeed the FC-31 prototype no. 31003.

(Image via xyqq/SDF)

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## LKJ86

Via @9谢艺航6 from Weibo

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## Armchair

Looking like a much more mature design.

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## LKJ86

Armchair said:


> Looking like a much more mature design.


It makes little sense to discuss whether the design of a technology demonstrator is mature or not...

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## Muhammad Omar



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## LKJ86

Via @9谢艺航6 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 634476
> 
> Via @9谢艺航6 from Weibo




Pitot or not pitot?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Deino what's the sense now about the J-31's export potential. Will it be a family tree split with one branch being the domestic only J-35 and the other an export only design (with some overlap, e.g. engines, but different in electronics, maybe airframe material, and some structural elements like aircraft carrier operability)? Or is AVIC going to take the FC-31 off the export catalogue?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Muhammad Omar said:


> View attachment 633189


Beautiful picture, beginning to fall for it again.


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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Deino what's the sense now about the J-31's export potential. Will it be a family tree split with one branch being the domestic only J-35 and the other an export only design (with some overlap, e.g. engines, but different in electronics, maybe airframe material, and some structural elements like aircraft carrier operability)? Or is AVIC going to take the FC-31 off the export catalogue?




Sorry for the delayed reply.

I must admit I have my estimations and a certain feeling in my stomach towards the FC-31, but I would rate this all as too much unconfirmed, premature and insecure.

IMO it most of all depends on the role and priority the PLA has assigned to this project. As such rumors like SAC has no interest/is no longer allowed to let a foreign partner participate (see thread in the China military section) might be a hint that it is a high priority project and that the PLA has no interest in letting any of their own requirements, timeframe/schedule or so being influenced by a third party. How reliable or credible these rumors are ... i don't know.

Otherwise for long my best guess was, that it would be indeed an export type FC-31 and maybe a second branch - this description describes quite nicely what i had in mind - of this family tree called J-35.

I must admit I would prefer to wait for a conclusive statement ...

Best

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## Trailer23

*Speculation of military commission rises as FC-31 stealth fighter jet appears in PLA Navy recruitment video*​4/6/2020
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190597.shtml




@LKJ86 @beijingwalker @Deino

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## Trailer23

Don't you just love it when Chinese-Tech makes waves in the US Media.

If it ain't 5G, its the 5th Gen Fighter Jet . Now articles like this have appeared on National Interest and a few other sites, but when *FOX News* covers it - its just as sweet. I truly hope Pakistan takes this jet seriously.
-------------------------
*Is China's new J-31 stealth multi-role fighter an F-35 rip-off?*​
*China has a long history of copying and stealing designs used for U.S. F-35*

By *Kris Osborn | Warrior Maven*

Chinese media reports are now referencing new photos of the emerging J-31 5th-Gen stealth fighter appearing on social media, ostensibly showing various design improvements to the new radar-evading multi-role aircraft.

A May 5th report in the Global Times, an English-language Chinese newspaper, says the new photos show an … “upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.”

Improvements or changes to the J-31 likely continue a long-standing pattern of China’s alleged effort to copy, steal or mirror designs used for the U.S. F-35.

Virtually all photos and renderings of the J-31, since first unveiled, revealed a striking resemblance to the U.S. F-35. This does not come to the surprise of many in the U.S., given China’s well-known and documented cyberespionage efforts. A 2014 “U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission” Congressional report specifically cites a Defense Science Board finding that Chinese cyberattacks resulted in the theft of significant specs and technical details of a range of U.S. weapons systems—including the F-35.

At the same time, a 2018 Pentagon news story about DoD’s annual China report mentions that apparent similarities between the F-35 and Chinese J-20 could very well be a result of espionage.

A cursory look at the J-20 does appear to show some resemblance to the F-35, particularly the blended wing-body front end and internally built, conformal exhaust pipes. These similarities do appear, despite the apparent differences, as the J-20 has a wider and longer lower-body. However, available photos show an even larger measure of similarity between the F-35 and Chinese J-31 multi-role fighter.





*A Chinese J-31 stealth fighter performs at the Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong province on November 11, 2014*​
As recently as last year, another Global Times report said the J-31 showed design improvements at the 2019 Paris Air Show.

Photos from the story reveal profound visual similarities between the F-35 and J-31. This is not without precedent, as the Chinese media itself has noted similarities between the two aircraft. Portions of a story from the Chinese government’s “People’s Daily Online” as far back as 2013 specifically cites design similarity between the emerging Chinese J-31 and the F-35, writing that the “J-31 and F-35 use the same DSI inlet (non-boundary layer-separated lane supersonic inlet).”

The only major difference, the paper notes, is that the U.S. has an F-35B Short Take Off and Landing variant and that the J-31 uses two engines compared to the F-35’s single-engine propulsion configuration.

The article’s reference to a “non-boundary layer separated lane supersonic inlet” appears both interesting and significant, as it pertains to designs engineered to manage heat and air movement signatures demonstrated by the aerodynamic phenomenon of airflow surrounding supersonic flight. “Boundary layer” aerodynamics, referring to the airflow surrounding a weapon or platform as it transits, can greatly impact the flight stability and stealth characteristics of an aircraft.

A pertinent comparison can be found in the Air Force Research Laboratories’ current work on “boundary layer phenomenology” related to next-generation hypersonic weapons. Senior Air Force science and technology leaders and weapons developers told me at the Air Force Association symposium in 2019 that “boundary layer phenomenology” was figuring prominently in ongoing research and development regarding future weapons and platforms. Managing heat flow and temperature is, of course, vital to maintaining flight stability for hypersonic weapons traveling at speeds up to five-times the speed of sound. Developers seek to engineer configurations that will generate a “laminar” or smooth airflow as opposed to “turbulent” boundary layer to enable a weapon to sustain an accurate trajectory and manage excessive heat.

Therefore, by extension, it seems apparent the same aerodynamic principles apply to stealth aircraft configurations that seek to manage the heat signatures and turbulence potentially generated in the airflow boundary layers of stealth jets flying at supersonic speeds.

Accordingly, a “non-boundary layer separated lane” for airflow, (as cited by the article) which does not break up or radically change airflow trajectory, could not only ensure smoother flight at high speeds but also help manage temperature. Of course, there would be significant differences between the thermal management technical engineering needed for hypersonics and stealth aircraft, yet smoother wing-body melded external designs, absent hard or protruding edges, clearly bring the added advantage of a smoother and cooler air flow boundary layer. Along these lines, the 2019 Global Times report details a few design changes to the 2019 J-31 which, according to the photographs, show a smoother, less-jagged exterior behind the cockpit compared to earlier models.

The Chinese newspaper stops short of exploring a fully-detailed discussion of aerodynamic designs related to the aircraft, but does cite a Chinese Air Force test pilot expert as saying “the J-31’s stealth aerodynamic design, stealth engine design and stealth coating design have all reached internationally advanced standards in stealth technology.” (China’s Air Force test pilot expert Xu Yongling.

However, external configuration and some elements of visible heat-signature management represent merely a few of many characteristics when it comes to stealth technology; stealth designs also often incorporate internally-built engines, radar-absorbent coating materials and internal weapons bays, among other things. Along these lines, the People’s Daily Online report makes the claim that the J-31 has a superior weapons payload capability compared with the F-35. However, available specs report that the J-31 travels with six external weapons hardpoints… the same number as the F-35.

As for how the J-31 may be employed, Chinese and U.S. newspapers are filled with various kinds of speculation; some reports say the fighter is intended for export as a way to counter the reach and scope of the F-35, however other reports cite Chinese officials saying the J-31 is intended for domestic use and possibly could even fly off of Chinese aircraft carriers.

Chinese progress with the J-31 calls to mind several timely strategic calculations. A more recent Congressional report, the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission, makes specific reference to concern regarding China’s expansionist aims when it comes to projecting air, land and sea power. The text of the review points to dramatic upticks in “long-distance over-water training” exercises over new areas in recent years which, the study goes on to suggest, improves the PLA Air Force’s capability to gather intelligence and “execute maritime missions against the U.S.”

“In November and December 2017, China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted at least nine long-distance training flights over maritime areas along China’s periphery, continuing a trend that began in 2015,” stated the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission.

All of this pertains to the often and widely discussed recognition that China has long-since passed its ambitions to operate as a dominant regional power and migrated aggressively toward positioning itself as a massive, leading global power.

Source: https://www.foxnews.com/tech/is-chinas-new-j-31-stealth-multi-role-fighter-an-f-35-rip-off


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Shenyang FC-31 Could bring fresh Tactical scenarios in favor of Pakistan Airforce against Rafale









In 80's , Pakistan was offered the F16 , fighter Jets which were a peak quality platform. The platform gave Pakistan a much needed assurance to maintain a certain level of balance in region against it's adversaries.


Fast forward 2020, and we see Pakistan Airforce taking small strides to become a stronger Air Force every year which passes.


However , with the current acquisition of Rafale planes by India , and their internal Teja projects gradually picking up pace, it is once again becoming clear that Pakistan Airforce need a big, adrenaline boost up their arms , to revitalize the Modernization drive in order to match the weapons accumulation happening across the border


While the Project Azm , has been initiated a while back and it will certainly take 5-10 years for any prototype to surface, however in the time till that project concludes
Pakistan needs a fall back Fighter Jet which gives us a Edge in Air warfare


The FC-31 appears to be one such platform which can give a tactical advantage to Pakistan Airforce vs the 4th generation crafts that India operates


While the craft was not selected by Chinese Airforce , because they opted for a bigger aircraft , however for Pakistan , the FC-31 offers a vital tactical advantage of stealth because we don't have the option otherwise


Even if the plane may be a not so ideal fit for 1 vs 1 battles however the advantage it would provide for Silent Attacks against prominent targets across the border for Deep Penetrating blows , is unparalleled


The plane could be used as an Ideal Surprise Delivery platform for Tactical Delivery of gifts.


30-40 planes FC-31 would offer a magnificent boost for Tactical Bombing across the border


Another advantageous aspect of the FC-31 is that if Pakistan becomes the first Export customer , the delivery would be on Time since Pakistan is the first country to get the craft (if it becomes an order placed by Pakistan). It is not like we will have to wait 5-10 years for planes to get delivered to Pakistan


The FC-31 would of course have full capability to fly over Delhi in night and the pilot would also have ability to take a selfie with Indian Awacs nice up and close



If FC-31 is attained by Pakistan, it may not be ideal for role of 1 vs 1 Dog fighting craft , but is attained more for the role of Tactical Stealth delivery platform it would give a tremendous boost to Pakistan Airforce



During the February 2019 Raid Pakistan Airforce conducted over Indian positions , with multiple Mirages , the same could be done with just 1 FC-31 in broad day light


It is argued that the plane could technically fly over India Undetected all the way to Beijing, China of course if the craft's fuel supports that trip

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## khanmubashir

Is there an operational j31 available
To my understanding it's still in development phase


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

FC-31 could be what F16 was to our airforce in 1990's

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Who says J-31 Is better than JF-17 Thunder Block 3? How is it better? What does anyone know anything about the J-31?

So far, J-31 Is still closer to a myth than reality.

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## Muhammad Omar

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Who says J-31 Is better than JF-17 Thunder Block 3? How is it better? What does anyone know anything about the J-31?
> 
> So far, J-31 Is still closer to a myth than reality.


So is BLOCK 3 we just saw 1 prototype everything else is pure speculation


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## KaiserX

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Who says J-31 Is better than JF-17 Thunder Block 3? How is it better? What does anyone know anything about the J-31?
> 
> So far, J-31 Is still closer to a myth than reality.



You gotta be joking lol

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## Baloch Pakistani

If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.

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## Akh1112

Baloch Pakistani said:


> If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.




I do feel it would Kickstart India into a rush acquisition of an FGFA, with the F-35 being a very likely candidate down the line. However, for now, unless India lets go of S400's, the F-35 is just a pipe dream


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I would love to see these jets in PAF with TOT. These planes have immense potential and may even add to our AZM project.

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## SABRE

Baloch Pakistani said:


> If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.



My concerns exactly. Pakistan should be cautious of this.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

FC-31 is a must for Airforce even just 40 Units would be sufficient for strategic purpose
For true Ninja like , missions in silence and Darkness of night go in Deep and deliver presents

On a 1 vs 1 the key point really is what you can't see on your radar screen you can't do much to it unless you have visual observation

And that is where it opens up new tactical options for Pakistan Airforce 

To get out of the Dog Fight Mindset and also introduce another card up their sleeves for key battles

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## Clutch

Baloch Pakistani said:


> If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.



With that logic... It means pakistan should always under equip itself?... I thought the best strategy is to have the qualitative edge over the enemy???

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## Akh1112

Clutch said:


> With that logic... It means pakistan should always under equip itself?... I thought the best strategy is to have the qualitative edge over the enemy???


Yes, it is, now tell me how you intend to gain a qualitative edge over the F-35?


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## python-000

PAF must join this project with China & need to induct them in a large number in its orignal form...


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Muhammad Omar said:


> So is BLOCK 3 we just saw 1 prototype everything else is pure speculation



This is confirmed scheduled production of Block-3 by the Air Chief:

2020: Block-3 x2
2021: Block-3 x12
2022: Block-3 x12
2023: Block-3 x12
2024: Block-3 x12

It is August 2020. So far, so good.
Which Air Chief has confirmed anything about J-31?

Pakistan has officially launched Project Azm and announced completion of its conceptual design so far along with a 10-year journey that began from July 2017.

What has Pakistan said anything about J-31? Nothing.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Baloch Pakistani said:


> If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.



The US will not sell F-35 to India simply because of deep Indian military integration with Russian defence industry.

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## GriffinsRule

There should be no FC-31 purchase by Pakistan, no matter what people here have been recommending, until PLAAF and/or PLAN have already purchased a few hundred of these already and they have been in service with the Chinese for a decade. Why should PAF be the sole or the first customer of a jet that it had no stake in, not to mention might not even meet the Chinese standards much less the PAF ones.
Add on the high cost due to non-existent supply chain set up and no economies of scale, we need to stay away from it as if it has STDs and Covid 19
For all intents and purposes, this is still a technology demonstrator and not an actual operational aircraft with only two airframes flying for a number of years already.

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## KaiserX

Pakistan will most likely place an initial order for 40-50. Who cares if India goes for F-35... will prob take them a decade to sign the contract then another decade to receive them  we will have 200+ 5th generation jets by then.

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## crankthatskunk

SABRE said:


> My concerns exactly. Pakistan should be cautious of this.



This is extremely negative and cowardly approach. 
There are chances that USA would give F 35 to India in any case. 
Where would Pakistan stand then!!

Things are going to change because of China factor too. 
For USA , Pakistan is not that important , but China certainly is. 

As we all know, USA sees India as cows (Lambs not suitable for India. lolz ) to the slaughter. 
USA will beef up India , to send them to the slaughter by the Chinese.


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## Clutch

Akh1112 said:


> Yes, it is, now tell me how you intend to gain a qualitative edge over the F-35?



It will be tough. Would require innovative counter measures. On the other hand, India can pursue the F-35 without Pakistan acquiring any new platform either.

Lets say India does another failed Balakot attack 2.0 .. And the Rafael doesn't live up to its promised dominance.... They will go for F-35. 

Taking a reactive approach will not provide Pakistan with the security and defense it seeks.

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## GriffinsRule

Clutch said:


> It will be tough. Would require innovative counter measures. On the other hand, India can pursue the F-35 without Pakistan acquiring any new platform either.
> 
> Lets say India does another failed Balakot attack 2.0 .. And the Rafael doesn't live up to its promised dominance.... They will go for F-35.
> 
> Taking a reactive approach will not provide Pakistan with the security and defense it seeks.


So another 4-5 years for them to operationalize the Rafales, try another Balakot, fail. Then start an F-35 tender that would take them another ten years to decide upon, and another five on top of that to take delivery. Seems like we have a lot of time in between now and then.


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## Akh1112

Clutch said:


> It will be tough. Would require innovative counter measures. On the other hand, India can pursue the F-35 without Pakistan acquiring any new platform either.
> 
> Lets say India does another failed Balakot attack 2.0 .. And the Rafael doesn't live up to its promised dominance.... They will go for F-35.
> 
> Taking a reactive approach will not provide Pakistan with the security and defense it seeks.




They cant realistically, they have tried, what did they get? The F-21 in return.


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## Clutch

Akh1112 said:


> They cant realistically, they have tried, what did they get? The F-21 in return.



I think it depends how embedded India becomes in the growing Western Anti-China camp. Why should the West give away it's carrots without a commitment first?

India historically vhas maintained a balance between the Western alliance and Russian camp. It's main focus and preparedness has been Pakistan centric. Now India is at a crossroads... As new boundaries are formed.

If India aligns itself fully with the Western agenda... It will be given the F-35 and more. Just like the UAE. It cannot remain neutral and expect all the carrots... It has to make a choice in a growing polarized world.

India can play a double game... Commit fully to the Anti-China Western campaign... But then still focus the newly acquired military wealth (F-35 and beyond) against Pakistan while only paying lip service to Chinese threats...


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## Figaro

SABRE said:


> My concerns exactly. Pakistan should be cautious of this.


Thanks to the Indian purchase of the S-400, this is impossible. India can only opt for the Su-57 at this point.

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## Clutch

GriffinsRule said:


> So another 4-5 years for them to operationalize the Rafales, try another Balakot, fail. Then start an F-35 tender that would take them another ten years to decide upon, and another five on top of that to take delivery. Seems like we have a lot of time in between now and then.



True... Valid points. However, due to complexities with modern aircraft from acquisition, adoption, then deployment will also force pakistan to start making its counter plans... I.e. they cannot wait for India to formally announce their interest in 5th gen F-35 or similar and then PAF responds...


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## Akh1112

Clutch said:


> I think it depends how embedded India becomes in the growing Western Anti-China camp. Why should the West give away it's carrots without a commitment first?
> 
> India historically vhas maintained a balance between the Western alliance and Russian camp. It's main focus and preparedness has been Pakistan centric. Now India is at a crossroads... As new boundaries are formed.
> 
> If India aligns itself fully with the Western agenda... It will be given the F-35 and more. Just like the UAE. It cannot remain neutral and expect all the carrots... It has to make a choice in a growing polarized world.
> 
> India can play a double game... Commit fully to the Anti-China Western campaign... But then still focus the newly acquired military wealth (F-35 and beyond) against Pakistan while only paying lip service to Chinese threats...




Problem is, India will have its own ambitions as it grows, also, India is heavily invested in domestic NGFA programs, they are chugging away slowly, if we were to suddenly narrow that capabilities gap and tilt the balance of power, it gives the US valid reasoning to enable the IAF to procure the F-35, heck, potentially to the point where the IAF would consider ditching the S-400 for the sake of re balancing power in the region. The US would also be worried about surveillance or whatever from the Chinese, the PLA has HQ-9 stationed not too far from IoK, any forward deployments of the F-35 could enable the PLA to gather whatever data they please from what they have, just like how the US is worried the S-400 can be used to gather intel against the F-35.


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## LeGenD

Baloch Pakistani said:


> If Pakistan gets FC-31 then USA will sell f35 to India imo.


Russian factor....

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## Muhammad Omar

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> This is confirmed scheduled production of Block-3 by the Air Chief:
> 
> 2020: Block-3 x2
> 2021: Block-3 x12
> 2022: Block-3 x12
> 2023: Block-3 x12
> 2024: Block-3 x12
> 
> It is August 2020. So far, so good.
> Which Air Chief has confirmed anything about J-31?
> 
> Pakistan has officially launched Project Azm and annoumced completion of its conceptual design so far along with a 10-year journey that began from July 2017.
> 
> What has Pakistan said anything about J-31? Nothing.



Pakistan will either end up something like J31 or TAI TFX under Project AZM Pakistan is not gonna make a plane from scratch we can't even make engines or Radars let alone Complete 5th Generation aircraft

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## Figaro

Muhammad Omar said:


> Pakistan will either end up something like J31 or TAI TFX under Project AZM Pakistan is not gonna make a plane from scratch we can't even make engines or Radars let alone Complete 5th Generation aircraft


Pakistan would definitely have to import the radar, engines, and other key subsystems, that is for sure. But that does not mean AZM is dead ... Pakistan does not have to create all the subsystems on its own for the AZM to be a success.

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## Akh1112

I don't understand how you make that claim tbh. PAC is actively working on an airborne phased array FCR. We have credible evidence to suggest this, while they may not have a fab for the TRM's, that is not an issue considering Aselsan does and is willing to export.


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## masterchief_mirza

Akh1112 said:


> Yes, it is, now tell me how you intend to gain a qualitative edge over the F-35?


I would respond - worry first about what the enemy has, before worrying about what they might get later.


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## Akh1112

masterchief_mirza said:


> I would respond - worry first about what the enemy has, before worrying about what they might get later.




And thats what the PAF is doing, with Block 3, however you would rather not dig yourself a hole that you cannot match later on. Why make your life difficult. Pakistan realises this, why do you think HQ-9 isnt a thing yet? Doing so, PA would push India to speeding up their S400 acq/deployment

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## python-000



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## SQ8

Clutch said:


> With that logic... It means pakistan should always under equip itself?... I thought the best strategy is to have the qualitative edge over the enemy???


Rock and a hard place situation - until we let India know we could listen into their radio’s, they had not gone into panic against us.

Same way, unless India equips with the F-35(which it will) we should not announce anything. Israel is the smartest airforce in the world not because of just equipment and training; but because they make small local statements at a high level on capability and then let performance along with media savvy(letting western sources be the validation mouth pieces) do the rest in solidifying fear within enemy ranks.

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## ziaulislam

India think j20 is inferior to their su30
They might rate j31 as good as mig29 

So i doubt a reaction would happen


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## Figaro

ziaulislam said:


> India think j20 is inferior to their su30
> They might rate j31 as good as mig29
> 
> So i doubt a reaction would happen


You are confusing with what the Indian media or retired generals think versus the IAF itself. I highly highly doubt the top brass of the IAF thinks the J-20 is not a 5th generation fighter lol. They are only saying these things because they want to project confidence, but deep down they know the J-20 is basically a noose around the IAF's neck at this point.

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## masterchief_mirza

Akh1112 said:


> And thats what the PAF is doing, with Block 3, however you would rather not dig yourself a hole that you cannot match later on. Why make your life difficult. Pakistan realises this, why do you think HQ-9 isnt a thing yet? Doing so, PA would push India to speeding up their S400 acq/deployment


Well I believe a panicked arms race - which is what you're describing - is probably already under way. I take your point that Pakistan cannot match India's potential in such an arms race, however, nothing at present will stop India's military supermarket sweep because USA is motivating it against the Chinese. If India is boosting itself to face off against China, surely it makes no difference what Pakistan does or doesn't purchase with regards to India's current motivation?


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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 30-40 planes FC-31 would offer a magnificent boost for Tactical Bombing across the border


Disagree on many accounts. 

A major point being that Pakistan should have the capability to produce own aircrafts, tanks, helicopters, ships, UCAVs etc. Once the industry and related factories are in place, Pakistan can produce weapons in capacity as required, otherwise allocate funds towards development of non-defence related projects in Pakistan for the betterment of own population, such as hospitals, pharmacies, schools, universities, disaster relief centres, roads etc as well as upgrade current infrastructure and facilities to international level. Indian weapons race in the region is never-ending and Pakistan's Government should look for a long term solution to address this issue.

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## Signalian

Clutch said:


> With that logic... It means pakistan should always under equip itself?... I thought the best strategy is to have the qualitative edge over the enemy???


 A good strategy is to acquire ' indigenous ' capability to manufacture own weapons and systems, all types. 
India will buy S-400, Rafale, aircraft carrier etc, this is to force Pakistan to go on a buying spree of weapons to match all these. PAF has so far been able to keep up against IAF through JF-17, which is still not completely indigenous.

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## jupiter2007

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The US will not sell F-35 to India simply because of deep Indian military integration with Russian defence industry.



US will be in catch 22 situation since India has S-400 air defense system.

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> India think j20 is inferior to their su30
> They might rate j31 as good as mig29
> 
> So i doubt a reaction would happen



They think J-20 is crap in front of Tejas block 2


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## PakAlp

We discussed this many times, the J31 fighter will not be ready till 2030, it only has 2 prototypes. The chinese airforce at the moment are concentrating on the J20 fighter and this is why J31 project has gone quiet, it could also be possible they are making another fighter jet ie J35. Whichever fighter it is, it won't be ready till 2030. 

Pakistan will not induct 5th generation jet till 2030, project AZM will be J31 or J35 with Pakistani specs, the 2nd 5th generation we are looking at is Tfx which also won't be available till 2030. 

This is not an issue because India will induct 5th generation in a decade time so PAF plan is in force already. To counter current su30Mki, Tejas, Mig29 and Rafael, we have f16 upgraded, f16 block 52s, jf17 block 2s and latest Block 3. This will definitely give us enough power to counter any attack, also if we are lucky we could also purchase more brand new f16s or 2nd hand ones.


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## ziaulislam

PakAlp said:


> We discussed this many times, the J31 fighter will not be ready till 2030, it only has 2 prototypes. The chinese airforce at the moment are concentrating on the J20 fighter and this is why J31 project has gone quiet, it could also be possible they are making another fighter jet ie J35. Whichever fighter it is, it won't be ready till 2030.
> 
> Pakistan will not induct 5th generation jet till 2030, project AZM will be J31 or J35 with Pakistani specs, the 2nd 5th generation we are looking at is Tfx which also won't be available till 2030.
> 
> This is not an issue because India will induct 5th generation in a decade time so PAF plan is in force already. To counter current su30Mki, Tejas, Mig29 and Rafael, we have f16 upgraded, f16 block 52s, jf17 block 2s and latest Block 3. This will definitely give us enough power to counter any attack, also if we are lucky we could also purchase more brand new f16s or 2nd hand ones.


Unless PAF gets block 70/aim120d it will be at disadvantage in vis to vis competition with rafale

It will therefore need something by 2025..
I think PAF should wait till j35/j31 situation clears up but as soon as something mature (5th gen)is available it should order it to counter the IAF..
IAF wont stop with 36 rafale..expect incremental orders to ultimately around 100-120 over next 10 years

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## kursed

Clutch said:


> It will be tough. Would require innovative counter measures. On the other hand, India can pursue the F-35 without Pakistan acquiring any new platform either.
> 
> Lets say India does another failed Balakot attack 2.0 .. And the Rafael doesn't live up to its promised dominance.... They will go for F-35.
> 
> Taking a reactive approach will not provide Pakistan with the security and defense it seeks.


We'd be glad they opted for getting S400, then. =)


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## volatile

I think there is another view of looking into this .PAF if today gets a chance of matured 5th generation platform they will go for it irrespective of IAF decision. FC-31 has its own merits and demerits .

*Demerits of FC-31*
FC-31 is untested /immature platform just like F-35 even they had F22 examples and life cycle still is undergoing lots of technological incorporation .So FC-31 being derivative of F-35 will require serious R&D input and with Chinese Air force no interest it will more be a tech demonstrator IMO unless foreign player pool into R&D with Shenyang Corp . 
More importantly Rd-93/WE-13 series are generation below the 5th generation stealth requirement so it will be tough sell unless a truly mature engine is developed (Both Russia/China are struggling in this currently) 

Merits of FC-31
Stealth design and being derivative of F35 many manufacturing challenges have overcome. 
Rd-93 engines have wide range of operators e.g PAF with overhauling facility and 200+ examples flying can have a excellent platform absorption to current fleet and infrastructure.

IMO 
For my stealth fan boys stealth is part of system not the system .So dreaming of taking selfies and flying to Delhi alone is quite chest thumping but in reality 5th Generation roles are different . PAF has clearly mentioned that they are looking to skip 5th Generation platform and Azm will be 5.5 Gen platform so common sense says let the technology mature enough to proceed further .By heart we should have 2 squadrons of these birds to supplement roles and take burden off from F16 and trust me when i say this .US/Europe will consider giving us 5th Generation if we move towards Chinese /Russian solution oldest trick of the book

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## Pandora

Any off the shelf purchase will be a curse for Pakistan. Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. There is no point in inducting a jet which we cant even at least maintain on our own. If Pakistan is to induct FC 31 lets say 5 years from now after putting an order today how will that benefit us? Out next gen jet is meant to replace F16s which means we have plenty of time and no need to rush. Opting for a foreign jet now would mean destroying our own Jet fighter industry which we spent billions to raise ground up. Even if its another 10-15 years we should wait for project Azm bcz there is no such thing as a reliable partner. What if we come at odds with China in next decade our FC31s will rot like a hunk of junk without proper spares just as it happened with F16s.

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## ziaulislam

Pandora said:


> Any off the shelf purchase will be a curse for Pakistan. Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. There is no point in inducting a jet which we cant even at least maintain on our own. If Pakistan is to induct FC 31 lets say 5 years from now after putting an order today how will that benefit us? Out next gen jet is meant to replace F16s which means we have plenty of time and no need to rush. Opting for a foreign jet now would mean destroying our own Jet fighter industry which we spent billions to raise ground up. Even if its another 10-15 years we should wait for project Azm bcz there is no such thing as a reliable partner. What if we come at odds with China in next decade our FC31s will rot like a hunk of junk without proper spares just as it happened with F16s.


Becasue airforce is one thing u need parity with your foe..its navy land forces u can compromise but airforce ..no... 

Azm is 20 years away 36-48 5th gen fighters wont hurt azm but will maintain parity with india.

Instead army could have waited in buying VT4s or t129 or so many other deals and worked on domestic solution for tanks arterllery etc..much easier then building a fifth gen fighter 

We are doing it other way around
First we neeto focus on guns, bigger guns(arterllery), EW, weapons, avionics, trainers and then jump to the impossible ...
just like turkey did

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## redtom

GriffinsRule said:


> There should be no FC-31 purchase by Pakistan, no matter what people here have been recommending, until PLAAF and/or PLAN have already purchased a few hundred of these already and they have been in service with the Chinese for a decade. Why should PAF be the sole or the first customer of a jet that it had no stake in, not to mention might not even meet the Chinese standards much less the PAF ones.
> Add on the high cost due to non-existent supply chain set up and no economies of scale, we need to stay away from it as if it has STDs and Covid 19
> For all intents and purposes, this is still a technology demonstrator and not an actual operational aircraft with only two airframes flying for a number of years already.


China may not purchase the medium 5th generation fighter, the FC31 is highly likely not to be purchased, but this does not mean that the FC31 is not suitable for PAF.Because China needs long-range fighters, the PAF does not. 
PAF attack on New Delhi only takes 400 km and mumbai only takes 700 km. The U.S. base is more than 1,000 km away from China. So PLAF prefers long range fighters like J16,J20 .

The BEST option for the PAF is to use an advanced medium fighter alongside a multi-role light fighter. FC31 and JF17 BLK3 are good choices.Therefore, I suggest that PAF get in touch with THE FC31 project as soon as possible to make the design direction of FC31 meet the requirements of PAF, or make AZM integrate with FC31.


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## Pandora

ziaulislam said:


> Becasue airforce is one thing u need parity with your foe..its navy land forces u can compromise but airforce ..no...
> 
> Azm is 20 years away 36-48 5th gen fighters wont hurt azm but will maintain parity with india.
> 
> Instead army could have waited in buying VT4s or t129 or so many other deals and worked on domestic solution for tanks arterllery etc..much easier then building a fifth gen fighter
> 
> We are doing it other way around
> First we neeto focus on guns, bigger guns(arterllery), EW, weapons, avionics, trainers and then jump to the impossible ...
> just like turkey did



Off the shelf purchases for once will need lots of money. We havnt even started inducting JF-17 block 3 and you want to Pay for another Jet fighter. It would effectively mean the end of thunder production line due to our limited financial resources. We have already bought more than enough weapons on credit so unless you want our country to go bankrupt lets give it a rest to Purchase of weapons on credit. Our focus should be on JF Thunder so that at least we can first replace all of our vintage aircraft. Even our older Blk 1s are due to upgrade so lets keep our priorities straight. Lets not jump so high that we fall down on our flat faces rather than on our feet. China for decades had been on a technological deficit with US but they built their industry up by supporting their local initiatives rather than going on buying spree from other countries. For decade US flaunted stealth tech over others but did you see china or Russia jumping up and down to gain parity? 

We are not jumping to impossible but rather taking next natural step in fighter jet production. Pakistan air force built aviation city for the sole purpose of our next gen plans. We have learnt a lot from our experience with Thunders. Also please dont mix up procurement plans of Army and other forces.


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## Metal 0-1

No one knows about the capability of these NOT SO 5th Gen Stealth Jets. 

PAF should focus on on incorporating western tech on AZM with Turkey's help... We don't need these...


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## LeGenD

volatile said:


> I think there is another view of looking into this .PAF if today gets a chance of matured 5th generation platform they will go for it irrespective of IAF decision. FC-31 has its own merits and demerits .
> 
> *Demerits of FC-31*
> FC-31 is untested /immature platform just like F-35 even they had F22 examples and life cycle still is undergoing lots of technological incorporation .So FC-31 being derivative of F-35 will require serious R&D input and with Chinese Air force no interest it will more be a tech demonstrator IMO unless foreign player pool into R&D with Shenyang Corp .
> More importantly Rd-93/WE-13 series are generation below the 5th generation stealth requirement so it will be tough sell unless a truly mature engine is developed (Both Russia/China are struggling in this currently)
> 
> Merits of FC-31
> Stealth design and being derivative of F35 many manufacturing challenges have overcome.
> Rd-93 engines have wide range of operators e.g PAF with overhauling facility and 200+ examples flying can have a excellent platform absorption to current fleet and infrastructure.
> 
> IMO
> For my stealth fan boys stealth is part of system not the system .So dreaming of taking selfies and flying to Delhi alone is quite chest thumping but in reality 5th Generation roles are different . PAF has clearly mentioned that they are looking to skip 5th Generation platform and Azm will be 5.5 Gen platform so common sense says let the technology mature enough to proceed further .By heart we should have 2 squadrons of these birds to supplement roles and take burden off from F16 and trust me when i say this .US/Europe will consider giving us 5th Generation if we move towards Chinese /Russian solution oldest trick of the book


Sir,

FC-31 is woefully inadequate and underdeveloped platform in comparison to F-35 in its current form; only 2 prototypes to show thus far and even the 2nd prototype look too 'clean' and with much inferior engine to be taken seriously. FC-31 is more of a concept demonstrator than being a warfighting machine in its current form.

Hundreds of F-35 variants have been developed and tested by now; F-35A and F-35B are mature variants at Block-3F stage and battle-tested over a number of countries including in Syria since 2017. How can you miss so many news items and leaks in relation?

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## Irfan Baloch

Akh1112 said:


> I do feel it would Kickstart India into a rush acquisition of an FGFA, with the F-35 being a very likely candidate down the line. However, for now, unless India lets go of S400's, the F-35 is just a pipe dream


despite am aggressive nuclear program and nuclear weapons use policy the Indians got special waivers and support by west to join nuclear suppliers group ( only blocked temporarily by China)

and access to American weapons sales to Indian choosing. S400 issue will be happily ignored by Americans and they will convince Indians to buy the Jets.
It is the overall alignment and strategic partnerships that matter not a single weapon system. 
Turkey got the boot from F35 prigram and bab from its sale despite being a NATO member, despite being the JSF program partner, despite going by the NATO charter which allows it to buy any defence system for its security.

India can get the same jet for breaking every single rule and reasons because Americans need it against China even if it gets SU 57 From Russia.

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## SABRE

crankthatskunk said:


> This is extremely negative and cowardly approach.
> There are chances that USA would give F 35 to India in any case.
> Where would Pakistan stand then!!
> 
> Things are going to change because of China factor too.
> For USA , Pakistan is not that important , but China certainly is.
> 
> As we all know, USA sees India as cows (Lambs not suitable for India. lolz ) to the slaughter.
> USA will beef up India , to send them to the slaughter by the Chinese.





Figaro said:


> Thanks to the Indian purchase of the S-400, this is impossible. India can only opt for the Su-57 at this point.



In politics, domestic or international, there are no cowardice, only cautious calculations. The U.S. is almost always willing to create exceptions for India, even with the lack of quid pro quo from it. This is evinced by the U.S. lead NSG wavier for India even though India did not conclude contracts with any of the U.S. nuclear power plant vendors - leading to the eventual demise of some of them. Even as India went for Russian technologies the U.S. continued to relax its export control policies for it. The U.S. bureaucracy is of the belief that the U.S. should empower India unconditionally to counter China. I have met with some State Department officials and almost all of them seemed onboard on this strategy, either tacitly or explicitly. Their only challenger is the U.S. Congress. Someone in the bipartisan setup is bound to raise issues, whether out of their moralistic concerns or for the sake of opposition or because of some lobby's coaxing. If the U.S. government decides to offer F-35 to India there is a chance that some Congressional members would raise the issue of flaring arms race in South Asia - or at least, Pakistan would have some ground to convince them on that argument. But if Pakistan introduces FC-31 first, Congress might be easily convinced to approve F-35 for India. In the end, we would be facing a much more capable aircraft then FC-31. Bear in mind, Modi is not Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh or other previous Indian PMs who were unwilling to surrender their strategic autonomy to the U.S., even to counter China. He will sell it for F-35s in a blink.

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## Figaro

Metal 0-1 said:


> No one knows about the capability of these NOT SO 5th Gen Stealth Jets.
> 
> PAF should focus on on incorporating western tech on AZM with Turkey's help... We don't need these...


I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.


SABRE said:


> In politics, domestic or international, there are no cowardice, only cautious calculations. The U.S. is almost always willing to create exceptions for India, even with the lack of quid pro quo from it. This is evinced by the U.S. lead NSG wavier for India even though India did not conclude contracts with any of the U.S. nuclear power plant vendors - leading to the eventual demise of some of them. Even as India went for Russian technologies the U.S. continued to relax its export control policies for it. The U.S. bureaucracy is of the belief that the U.S. should empower India unconditionally to counter China. I have met with some State Department officials and almost all of them seemed onboard on this strategy, either tacitly or explicitly. Their only challenger is the U.S. Congress. Someone in the bipartisan setup is bound to raise concerns, whether out of their moralistic concerns or for the sake of opposition or because of some lobby's coaxing. If the U.S. government decides to offer F-35 to India there is a chance that some Congressional members would raise the issue of flaring arms race in South Asia - or at least, Pakistan would have some ground to convince them on that argument. But if Pakistan introduces FC-31 first, there is virtually nothing that would stop Congress from approving F-35 for India. In the end, we would be facing a much more capable aircraft then FC-31. Bear in mind, Modi is not Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh or other previous Indian PMs who were unwilling to surrender their strategic autonomy to the U.S., even to counter China. He will sell it for F-35s in a blink.


Once again, I doubt the US cares enough about India to give it F-35s, especially when the S-400 is present. I could not imagine any scenario where the F-35 would be sold to India even if the PAF receives the FC-31. I am almost 100% sure India's 5th gen fighter is not going to be the F-35 but instead a fly away Su-57. There is just no way the US would sell their state of art fighter to a country with deep ties to Russian defense industry and one that possesses the S-400. Politics is one thing but national security is another.


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## Vapour

Signalian said:


> Disagree on many accounts.
> 
> A major point being that Pakistan should have the capability to produce own aircrafts, tanks, helicopters, ships, UCAVs etc. Once the industry and related factories are in place, Pakistan can produce weapons in capacity as required, otherwise allocate funds towards development of non-defence related projects in Pakistan for the betterment of own population, such as hospitals, pharmacies, schools, universities, disaster relief centres, roads etc as well as upgrade current infrastructure and facilities to international level. Indian weapons race in the region is never-ending and Pakistan's Government should look for a long term solution to address this issue.



Do you believe in a military solution to Kashmir? 

Maybe not now, but as you mention, if investment in developing indigenous capability and production begins from now and we can produce weaponry at will across the spectrum, say, in 10-15 years time - PA would be in a position to deal with IOK?


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## Taimur Khurram

Acquiring 36 of them would do nicely.


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## SABRE

Figaro said:


> I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.



Perhaps, AVIC should partner up SAC with CAC to streamline the FC-31 development.

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## Signalian

Vapour said:


> Do you believe in a military solution to Kashmir?


Yes, but not the only solution.




> Maybe not now, but as you mention, if investment in developing indigenous capability and production begins from now and we can produce weaponry at will across the spectrum, say, in 10-15 years time - PA would be in a position to deal with IOK?


Pakistan needs to strengthen its economy, not with temporary gimmicks like loans, but through a solid footing. If Pakistan had oil, the story would have been different. Pakistan has its biggest resource as its population, who need jobs and pay taxes through income taxes. IK has been raising taxes on business, who take out money from pockets of public. IMO, one of the places where Pakistan can have a good start is through investing in technology - be it defence related or non-defence. Curtail the imports, start exporting. Most of the higher education students go abroad, some return to serve the country, mostly don't. This means that other countries accept their talents/skills and give them a chance to progress. If Pakistan has the R&D in universities, the ability to design in industries and then factories to produce the item - any item be it laptop, car, truck, tank, helicopter, aircraft, satellite etc then the country can start to prosper. This is where the International relations will take a turn in favour of Pakistan. The 'nuclear' status is not working anymore in the international arena. West takes it as major threat. Pakistan could have learnt from China or South Korea or any other country which has an active enemy sitting on its borders. As an example, take Hyundai, it sells cars and tanks. Pakistani military is interested in national projects to produce military vehicles and aircrafts, but the non-defence sector is trotting along otherwise since decades. Honda, Toyota and Suzuki are being assembled, the local brand Adam is dead. While USA helped South Korea by all means possible, China did the same for Pakistan. One has to see what went wrong where.

As Pakistan takes time to prosper, India gets stronger everyday. Its also vice verca, it goes in Pakistan's favour too. This is why India has created a conventional arms race since Pakistan poses an undeniable potent threat in the arena of cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, second strike capability and nuclear weapons. India has to live with this fact. The speed with which Pakistan's nuclear arsenal increased has created lots of stir in India and few other countries. But you see, Nuclear deterrent saves Pakistan from another 1971, but it doesn't guarantee IOK becoming a part of Pakistan.

Pakistan's progress and its development does not have to revolve around freedom of IOK. Pakistan has to build its economy for itself, for its public, for its say on international diplomatic levels and to repair its tarnished image since early 2000s. 

Wars and mobilisation require money. Its next to impossible to take IOK without a strong economy. Realistically, in next 10 years, PAF might have replaced all older aircraft with JF-17 and maybe could have got its hands on more F-16s, but in a war PAF will suffer F-16 losses and those would need replacements. A stealth aircraft out of Azm might have come up. If PA buys VT-4, it still won't have enough modern tanks to replace AK or T-80 or VT-4 losses except if any T-59 or T-69 are left in storage as replacements. If AH-1F are put in storage, then they will replace T-129 losses. PN will have to replace corvette and frigate losses. Replacements are necessary to continue an offensive. Replacements by older systems provides no edge in quality while Pakistan already cannot match India's quantity. Pakistan will look towards China or Turkey or any other country to replenish losses during the war and then after the war. This again means importing weaponry and technology. If all the components of a weapons system are local, its cheaper to produce. Next, when the required amount is produced, the factory can either go in slow or minimal production or start exporting that weapons system. When a war occurs, the factory can produce en masse through round the clock shifts. Through clever designing of machinery, the factories which produce trucks or heavy construction machinery in peace time could be able to produce MRAP and Tanks during war. 

Pakistan has to manage speed and tenacity in military domain as well as manage diplomacy and narrative in international domain to gain a foot hold in IOK which currently Pakistan might not be able to do so, unless through some miracle. How many days before international powers intervene and ask both countries to back off ? 3 days, 5 days maybe 7 days. Pakistan does not have enough military muscle to capture IOK. Importing more and more weapons to gain that strength will further drain its economy. Using newly acquired modern foreign weapons does not guarantee victory over IOK.

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## Deino

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Shenyang FC-31 Could bring fresh Tactical scenarios in favor of Pakistan Airforce against Rafale
> ...




*Do we really need yet again a new thread for the same topic??*

*We already have one and IMO it is enough:*









SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate


Due to some wide spread information on many sites and in the specialized media about the possibility of Pakistan acquiring the 5th generation Chinese (/Pakistani?) stealth fighter jet, and the communality of their future engine the WS-13. I have decided to open this thread for serious...



defence.pk

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Muhammad Omar said:


> Pakistan will either end up something like J31 or TAI TFX under Project AZM Pakistan is not gonna make a plane from scratch we can't even make engines or Radars let alone Complete 5th Generation aircraft



Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?

Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far? 

No.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Pandora said:


> ... Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. ...



They are different weight classes. Do you think hundreds of light-weight A-5s, F-6s and F-7s should be replaced by medium-weight F-16s? Where's the logic, feasibility and effiency in that?


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## Muhammad Omar

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?
> 
> Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far?
> 
> No.


They are trying to


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## volatile

LeGenD said:


> Sir,
> 
> FC-31 is woefully inadequate and underdeveloped platform in comparison to F-35 in its current form; only 2 prototypes to show thus far and even the 2nd prototype look too 'clean' and with much inferior engine to be taken seriously. FC-31 is more of a concept demonstrator than being a warfighting machine in its current form.
> 
> Hundreds of F-35 variants have been developed and tested by now; F-35A and F-35B are mature variants at Block-3F stage and battle-tested over a number of countries including in Syria since 2017. How can you miss so many news items and leaks in relation?


Yes i agree with your point of view and may be this is PAF hesitance towards induction of FC31 as on today .By 2024 we are booked with JF17 orders and in parallel it will be a great time to building 1st prototype but in reality 5th generation technology is scarce resource with little or no help from US and EU many countries will struggle to keep up specially in Pakistan case there is an other constraint that is big money .Porject Azm in my view makes more sense around sensor fusion ,EW suite and other parameters as designing and building plan + engine is a big No .Simply we dont have a industrial base and private sector is not opened so in this case FC31 today being prototype /tech demonstrator will continue to develop in steady state like in 2013 first flight and now in 2019 second prototype .similarly i believe FC31 will be mature enough plane by 2024 as Chinese are not idiot to keep spending on this plane. It has potential and Azm compliments this potential with sensors and other suite


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## Figaro

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?
> 
> Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far?
> 
> No.


There is something called the WS-13.


SABRE said:


> Perhaps, AVIC should partner up SAC with CAC to streamline the FC-31 development.


Never ... SAC would IMHO bring CAC down. SAC has so far failed to achieve any meaningful indigenous design ... they're hallmarks are ultimately still unlicensed flanker variations (J-15, J-16).


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## Rafi

<sigh> ☆ why this regurgitation of past arguments.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Figaro said:


> I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.
> 
> Once again, I doubt the US cares enough about India to give it F-35s, especially when the S-400 is present. I could not imagine any scenario where the F-35 would be sold to India even if the PAF receives the FC-31. I am almost 100% sure India's 5th gen fighter is not going to be the F-35 but instead a fly away Su-57. There is just no way the US would sell their state of art fighter to a country with deep ties to Russian defense industry and one that possesses the S-400. Politics is one thing but national security is another.


I think folks are also forgetting that the J-31s we see right now are technology demonstrators.

They're not indicative of the final fighter design. However, the demonstrator is a very important step. SAC is effectively 10 years ahead of anything PAC/AvRID is doing (let's assume PAC/AvRID can access Chinese inputs like engines, avionics and even flight control tech as though it were CAC or SAC).

The other factor is that buying into the FC-31 may give Pakistan enough leverage later down the line to access Chinese inputs for a proprietary design later on. If we do it right, our side could learn a lot about the Chinese industry and gain a lot of roadways/contacts in China. We could even pull for other things, e.g., CH-7 UCAV.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Figaro said:


> There is something called the WS-13.



There maybe but it hasn't been installed on any of the 128 JF-17 Thunders so far.

Point being, there was never a condition imposed on the project that JF-17 can only be produced if the Chinese produced their engines first.

Similarly, most of the stuff can be imported for FGF until as and when it is possible to be constructed in the country. 

I just don't get why so many Pakistanis think only when every single bolt and screw is produced in Pakistan, only then Project Azm can be considered indigenous or purely a Pakistani aircraft PF-65 Sultan.

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## IblinI



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## Daniel808

IblinI said:


>



What a beauty

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## Muhammad Omar

IblinI said:


>


Hope PAF gets this beast

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## IceCold

IblinI said:


>


Just look at it. Wow. Always loved the design in fact more than J-20 for one it closely resembles to raptor.

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## LKJ86

IceCold said:


> Just look at it. Wow. Always loved the design in fact more than J-20 for one it closely resembles to raptor.


It is just a technology demonstrator...
You should wait for the prototypes of J-35.

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## Stealth

ShitAF aka IAF will literally pee in their pants if they see F16s along with this coming for the engagement lol

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## Kabotar

IceCold said:


> Just look at it. Wow. Always loved the design in fact more than J-20 for one it closely resembles to raptor.


Let's hope Chinese industry comes up with better stealth coating and electro optics or at least at par that is on F35.


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## The SC

The new FC-31












Compare to this..

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> It is just a technology demonstrator...
> You should wait for the prototypes of J-35.



When in 2021 do you think we might get photos of the prototype?


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## LKJ86

The SC said:


> The new FC-31
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare to this..


*31001/31002*







-----------------------------------
*31003*

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## Pakistan Space Agency

LKJ86 said:


> *31003*
> View attachment 667935
> View attachment 667936



When did the third prototype first flew?


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## Deino

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> When did the third prototype first flew?



This aircraft is not new, it is only that we became aware quite late that the one we always called FC-31V2 is in fact the third airframe. The second in fact never flew.

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## PakAlp

J31 looks amazing. Hope chinese military decides to buy this so the project is worked on at full swing. By 2030 we should have a lethal J31/J35 ready to induct

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## Trango Towers

Pakistan will not buy this bird as project azm is our goal. Jf17 blk 3 will fill the gap


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## Figaro

Trango Towers said:


> Pakistan will not buy this bird as project azm is our goal. Jf17 blk 3 will fill the gap


The problem is project AZM is still a very long ways off from being operational ... the JF-17 Block III is a very good 4.5 generation fighter but compared to a 5th generation fighter like the FC-31, it is not enough. A FC-31 or J-35 purchase would allow the PAF to achieve 5th generation capability all the way till AZM goes into service. There is only so much the PAF can squeeze out of a 4th generation design.

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## Deino

imran_haji27 said:


> نہیں لیتے تو نہ لیں ایف سی ۳۱ لیکن ان جے ایف ۱۷ کے ائر انٹیکس کو تو ونگز کے اوپر یا ونگز کے نیچے کر دیں تاکہ جہاز کچھ خوبصورت تو لگے




Oh man ... give at least a translated summary!

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## Laser

Deino said:


> Oh man ... give at least a translated summary!


i don't know english writing. only read


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## El Observer

Deino said:


> Oh man ... give at least a translated summary!


Translation:
If they dont want FC-31, fine. But at least redesign the intakes of JF-17 above or below the wings so that it looks aestheticaly better.

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## Muhammad Omar

Trango Towers said:


> Pakistan will not buy this bird as project azm is our goal. Jf17 blk 3 will fill the gap



Project AZM is not gonna materialise anytime soon


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## Trango Towers

Figaro said:


> The problem is project AZM is still a very long ways off from being operational ... the JF-17 Block III is a very good 4.5 generation fighter but compared to a 5th generation fighter like the FC-31, it is not enough. A FC-31 or J-35 purchase would allow the PAF to achieve 5th generation capability all the way till AZM goes into service. There is only so much the PAF can squeeze out of a 4th generation design.


Well. We can say what we like. PaF is still using f7pg and mirages and upgrades have made them very competent and potent weapons systems. History shows the PAF doesn't jump into purchases and the Southern unfriendly neighbour has a very slow procurement process. By the time they make a decision project azm will be operational


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## The Accountant

El Observer said:


> Translation:
> If they dont want FC-31, fine. But at least redesign the intakes of JF-17 above or below the wings so that it looks aestheticaly better.


Its a war plane designed as per aerodynamic and performance requirements and not an actress or model designed on asthetics

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## Readerdefence

Hi more knowledgeable members will agreed to my post once j35/31 or whatever it’s name will Start landing on Chinese ACC which will happen one way or the other soon PAF will be the next customer for these planes AZM long way to go & in coming years in near future Indians will be the next customer for F35 & can be for their upcoming ACC B version of F35 
thank you


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## Akh1112

Philip the Arab said:


> Does anyone know if a HAVE GLASS like coating could reduce RCS of JF-17? Maybe even External stealth weapon pods could reduce it further.
> 
> @Figaro
> 
> 
> For reference
> 
> *Block 60's Haveglass:*
> 
> “One of the things they did on the Block 60s — was they did a coating on the Block 60 that’s got the texture of about 40 grit sandpaper — 60 grit sandpaper. It’s very, very rough.
> 
> It was designed for RCS (Radar Cross Section) reduction. Since then for the Block 70.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Force F-16C Receives New “Have Glass V” Paint Scheme - Fighter Jets World
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-16 from the 149th Fighter Wing, Texas Air National Guard with a new, darker singl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fighterjetsworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, all “Vipers” are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.



Course, but we also have to remember the JF-17 is primarily aluminium. We should be working on upping the composite content and then look to a RAM coating if need be (not necessarily needed, look at other LO aircraft, rafale, shornet etc.), however, we would need to develop it ourselves which is something we dont have the capability to do nor does it make sense to do so when the world is moving towards baked in fibre mats for stealth, so this wouldn't even be useful for azm eitherl.

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## CrazyZ

Philip the Arab said:


> Does anyone know if a HAVE GLASS like coating could reduce RCS of JF-17? Maybe even External stealth weapon pods could reduce it further.
> 
> @Figaro
> 
> 
> For reference
> 
> *Block 60's Haveglass:*
> 
> “One of the things they did on the Block 60s — was they did a coating on the Block 60 that’s got the texture of about 40 grit sandpaper — 60 grit sandpaper. It’s very, very rough.
> 
> It was designed for RCS (Radar Cross Section) reduction. Since then for the Block 70.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Force F-16C Receives New “Have Glass V” Paint Scheme - Fighter Jets World
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-16 from the 149th Fighter Wing, Texas Air National Guard with a new, darker singl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fighterjetsworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, all “Vipers” are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.


RCS of JF-17 B3 is classified but it is safe to assume that every new version will have lower RCS than previous versions.

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## Philip the Arab

Akh1112 said:


> Course, but we also have to remember the JF-17 is primarily aluminium. We should be working on upping the composite content and then look to a RAM coating if need be (not necessarily needed, look at other LO aircraft, rafale, shornet etc.), however, we would need to develop it ourselves which is something we dont have the capability to do nor does it make sense to do so when the world is moving towards baked in fibre mats for stealth, so this wouldn't even be useful for azm eitherl.


JF-17 will be in service for many years, if this solution was not useful the US air national guard would not use it to upgrade their capabilities. I'm sure the Chinese could put something together that Pakistan can locally produce.

Does aluminum make this solution unworkable or something? I dont see JF-17 being a lot more composite after Block 3.


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## Philip the Arab

CrazyZ said:


> RCS of JF-17 B3 is classified but it is safe to assume that every new version will have lower RCS than previous versions.


Most likely yes, was just thinking of making it even more low rcs matching the Eurofighters.


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## Figaro

Philip the Arab said:


> Does anyone know if a HAVE GLASS like coating could reduce RCS of JF-17? Maybe even External stealth weapon pods could reduce it further.
> 
> @Figaro
> 
> 
> For reference
> 
> *Block 60's Haveglass:*
> 
> “One of the things they did on the Block 60s — was they did a coating on the Block 60 that’s got the texture of about 40 grit sandpaper — 60 grit sandpaper. It’s very, very rough.
> 
> It was designed for RCS (Radar Cross Section) reduction. Since then for the Block 70.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Force F-16C Receives New “Have Glass V” Paint Scheme - Fighter Jets World
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-16 from the 149th Fighter Wing, Texas Air National Guard with a new, darker singl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fighterjetsworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, all “Vipers” are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.


Most of the RCS given off I believe is from the shaping itself. So any external payload will kill its RCS, irregardless of even shaping or RAM. The Rafale claims to achieve a 1 m^2 RCS in a very clean state, but when it carries its weapons load (as it would in combat), this instantly spikes up. So to summarize, yes the JF-17 can adopt those features to possibly lower RCS but it would not be enough to make any meaningful decreases in detection range.


The Accountant said:


> Its a war plane designed as per aerodynamic and performance requirements and not an actress or model designed on asthetics


If we are going to go off looks, then the F-35 is easily the worst looking fifth generation fighter lol.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Figaro said:


> Most of the RCS given off I believe is from the shaping itself. So any external payload will kill its RCS, irregardless of even shaping or RAM. The Rafale claims to achieve a 1 m^2 RCS in a very clean state, but when it carries its weapons load (as it would in combat), this instantly spikes up. So to summarize, yes the JF-17 can adopt those features to possibly lower RCS but it would not be enough to make any meaningful decreases in detection range.
> 
> If we are going to go off looks, then the F-35 is easily the worst looking fifth generation fighter lol.


It might be wiser to apply coatings to ALCMs like Ra'ad. The ALCM itself is a LO-design, but the coating could be a good 'assurance' factor, especially for long-range attacks (300-600 km).

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## PDF

The Accountant said:


> Its a war plane designed as per aerodynamic and performance requirements and not an actress or model designed on asthetics


Actually, in engineering, aesthetic and appearance is taken into account but it depends on the requirements. Compromises can be made when some factors need domination so some things can be ignored.

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## The Accountant

PDF said:


> Actually, in engineering, aesthetic and appearance is taken into account but it depends on the requirements. Compromises can be made when some factors need domination so some things can be ignored.


Agreed but position of intake is based on the required performance parameters ... For car asthetics are highly important but for a fighter aircraft performance is priority.

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## The Eagle

The next thing for thread derailment is that, offenders will be banned permanent from topic. Enough reminders & soft warnings issued. One banned.

Regards,

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## MastanKhan

Akh1112 said:


> Course, but we also have to remember the JF-17 is primarily aluminium. We should be working on upping the composite content and then look to a RAM coating if need be (not necessarily needed, look at other LO aircraft, rafale, shornet etc.), however, we would need to develop it ourselves which is something we dont have the capability to do nor does it make sense to do so when the world is moving towards baked in fibre mats for stealth, so this wouldn't even be useful for azm eitherl.



Hi,

Aluminum is still the best low cost answer to any flying machine.

Composites are extremely expensive and defects in them are not as noticeable as in the aluminum.

There is a recently built Boeing aircraft that has been grounded due to failure in the composities materials integrity.

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## OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

I'm afraid J-35/FC-31 may yet be the best stopgap solution for PAF... AZM will have to leapfrog to next-gen! At this pace they'll probably hit 5th gen possibly in a decade but it is not needed... especially when 6th gen is already being tested. One must keep their priorities straight and in this case a solution off the shelf is the right answer... all the while next generation is researched.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It might be wiser to apply coatings to ALCMs like Ra'ad. The ALCM itself is a LO-design, but the coating could be a good 'assurance' factor, especially for long-range attacks (300-600 km).



Hi,

The more you dig deeper into it---the more surprises you may find in the fighter aircraft skin material---. More of it to be aluminum.

Years ago I posted a picture of an F22---going re-surfacing---its skin was being chiselled away to remove the putty covering the skin and you could see the rivets in the aluminum skin attached to the frame.

That putty that covered the F22 aircraft skin was made from a material that made the aircraft invisible and it was not the composite materials that did it as much---.

I personally thinks that the americans have tried to confuse their enemies by diverting them to composite materials while still using aluminum skin and radar absorbing putty material covering the skin for ultimate stealth projection---.

The Boeing 787 I believe has been ground due to the failure of composites---.

What do you think @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The more you dig deeper into it---the more surprises you may find in the fighter aircraft skin material---. More of it to be aluminum.
> 
> Years ago I posted a picture of an F22---going re-surfacing---its skin was being chiselled away to remove the putty covering the skin and you could see the rivets in the aluminum skin attached to the frame.
> 
> That putty that covered the F22 aircraft skin was made from a material that made the aircraft invisible and it was not the composite materials that did it as much---.
> 
> I personally thinks that the americans have tried to confuse their enemies by diverting them to composite materials while still using aluminum skin and radar absorbing putty material covering the skin for ultimate stealth projection---.
> 
> The Boeing 787 I believe has been ground due to the failure of composites---.
> 
> What do you think @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I can't speak to the Americans (not too informed on it), but I'm increasingly believing in KISS. 

Basically, if we can get the required performance and capability parameters by keeping the materials simpler (and in turn less prone to sanctions, complications, flaws, etc), we'll save more in money and time. We would also avoid supply-side issues. 

That said, composites may have their value for small applications, such as attritible drones (e.g., ALCM, decoy, loyal wingman, etc). The key is commoditizing the production chain to the point where the parts are generally on the simpler side while also cheap and quick to roll-out.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The more you dig deeper into it---the more surprises you may find in the fighter aircraft skin material---. More of it to be aluminum.
> 
> Years ago I posted a picture of an F22---going re-surfacing---its skin was being chiselled away to remove the putty covering the skin and you could see the rivets in the aluminum skin attached to the frame.
> 
> That putty that covered the F22 aircraft skin was made from a material that made the aircraft invisible and it was not the composite materials that did it as much---.
> 
> I personally thinks that the americans have tried to confuse their enemies by diverting them to composite materials while still using aluminum skin and radar absorbing putty material covering the skin for ultimate stealth projection---.
> 
> The Boeing 787 I believe has been ground due to the failure of composites---.
> 
> What do you think @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



What you are saying is correct, the link below has some good details; I feel we’ve been focusing on the wrong thing. While some panels have baked in stealth it’s more to do with the coating. 









These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating


The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.




www.thedrive.com

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## MastanKhan

PakFactor said:


> What you are saying is correct, the link below has some good details; I feel we’ve been focusing on the wrong thing. While some panels have baked in stealth it’s more to do with the coating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating
> 
> 
> The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com



Hi,

Thanks for finding that article. Here is a quip from it

" It's amazing to think that the powerful lines of the F-22 that we have come so familiar with are really just a cloak that conceals the aircraft beneath it. As these photos prove, when it comes to the Raptor, there is so much more than meets the eye and we may never really know anywhere near all of its shrouded secrets nor much about shrouds themselves that conceal them".

Now you wonder why the aircraft has issues in wet climate---.

Americans are masters of disguise---. The preach the principals of KISS to everyone---but many do not understand it or do not know what to do with it.

That is one thing different about pakistan's military's industrial complex---in successful projects---you would see them following that rule---which means the project director knew and understood what he had in plan.

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## Kabotar

What is KISS?


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for finding that article. Here is a quip from it
> 
> " It's amazing to think that the powerful lines of the F-22 that we have come so familiar with are really just a cloak that conceals the aircraft beneath it. As these photos prove, when it comes to the Raptor, there is so much more than meets the eye and we may never really know anywhere near all of its shrouded secrets nor much about shrouds themselves that conceal them".
> 
> Now you wonder why the aircraft has issues in wet climate---.
> 
> Americans are masters of disguise---. The preach the principals of KISS to everyone---but many do not understand it or do not know what to do with it.
> 
> That is one thing different about pakistan's military's industrial complex---in successful projects---you would see them following that rule---which means the project director knew and understood what he had in plan.


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## CaptainNemo

Kabotar said:


> What is KISS?



Keep It Simple Stupid

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## MastanKhan

Kabotar said:


> What is KISS?



Hi,

Keep It Simple Stupid----. That is the basic american industrial engineering mantra---.

It is the principal behind the build of the JF17.

It is the principal behind the F16---F15---The Gripen The Mirage 3/5's---the Mirage F1---the Mig29's.

Basically a functional and utilitarian form of engineering---.

Always keep in mind " that the wheel has already been invented "---. So---you cannot re-invent the wheel---. You can make it look better---lighter---stronger---durable---.

Now following that principal in its function---you have already gained 50% success in your endeavor right from the gitgo---. Why---because in your planning period---you considered all options and overcame almost all the con cerns---.

You came up with certain design parameters---which you learnt from your association with the americans---the german---the french---.

And you also understood that why those people were successful and you were not was because they spent enough time to analyze discuss and understand the project and once committed---would see thru to the end---.

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## Metal 0-1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The FC-31 would of course have full capability to fly over Delhi in night and the pilot would also have ability to take a selfie with Indian Awacs nice up and close





AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It is argued that the plane could technically fly over India Undetected all the way to Beijing, China of course if the craft's fuel supports that trip


Really... Even Raptor can't do this....


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## Syed1.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Keep It Simple Stupid----. That is the basic american industrial engineering mantra---.
> 
> It is the principal behind the build of the JF17.
> 
> It is the principal behind the F16---F15---The Gripen The Mirage 3/5's---the Mirage F1---the Mig29's.
> 
> Basically a functional and utilitarian form of engineering---.
> 
> Always keep in mind " that the wheel has already been invented "---. So---you cannot re-invent the wheel---. You can make it look better---lighter---stronger---durable---.
> 
> Now following that principal in its function---you have already gained 50% success in your endeavor right from the gitgo---. Why---because in your planning period---you considered all options and overcame almost all the con cerns---.
> 
> You came up with certain design parameters---which you learnt from your association with the americans---the german---the french---.
> 
> And you also understood that why those people were successful and you were not was because they spent enough time to analyze discuss and understand the project and once committed---would see thru to the end---.


Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.

Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed1. said:


> Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.
> 
> Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.


IMO the F-35 was more of a victim of corporate shiftiness than its own technical issues. 

The demonstrator was a solid idea for a fighter capable of both conventional and VTOL operations. It's just that it underwent some development issues after that point. However, many of those issues may have been necessary for the US to maintain its technology edge over others.

Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon). Overall, the F-35 got a lot of flack, but it's coming along fairly well now.

Moving forward I don't think the US would develop a single platform for every need. Rather, it'll likely focus on common subsystems (like in the 1980s), but allow for each service to develop a unique solution.

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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.
> 
> Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.



Hi,

Don't be too quick to judge them---. They have set the standards that everyone in the world is chasing after.

Sometimes the wannabe nations get entrapped in what the americans are doing---like spending money on extravagant stuff---. To the ordinary it looks like a wastage---but it is not---.

Just look at the re-birth of the F15---just look at the re-birth of the B-52 bomber---.

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## ziaulislam

Metal 0-1 said:


> Really... Even Raptor can't do this....


Lol with so few AWECS i bet even an f16 can fly undetected

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the F-35 was more of a victim of corporate shiftiness than its own technical issues.
> 
> The demonstrator was a solid idea for a fighter capable of both conventional and VTOL operations. It's just that it underwent some development issues after that point. However, many of those issues may have been necessary for the US to maintain its technology edge over others.
> 
> Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon). Overall, the F-35 got a lot of flack, but it's coming along fairly well now.
> 
> Moving forward I don't think the US would develop a single platform for every need. Rather, it'll likely focus on common subsystems (like in the 1980s), but allow for each service to develop a unique solution.


USA block orders fell below 100million mark
F35 seems to be cheaper then rafale 
Its new launcher will allow it to carry six AIM120 this would slaughter any 4.5 gen fighters as they would have no time to react against the solvo of BVRs..
Wait till the thinner next gen missles come into service ..!!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> USA block orders fell below 100million mark
> F35 seems to be cheaper then rafale
> Its new launcher will allow it to carry six AIM120 this would slaughter any 4.5 gen fighters as they would have no time to react against the solvo of BVRs..
> Wait till the thinner next gen missles come into service ..!!


Yep...and I doubt the US will go through as many issues with its future next-gen fighters. It is now focusing on simplifying R&D management and design/development (via digital twins etc). The US will hammer us with F-35s plus new (and many) UCAV designs, 5+ and 6-gen fighters, etc.

The world was foolish to think all that $$$ spent on R&D over the decades wasn't going to surface. China just showed that it's a big enough threat for the US to flex again, but that flex is a collective dressing down of UK, France, Germany, and everyone else who thought the US was losing it. Thanks China >_>

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## PDF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon).


What is the cost of operating each platfrom per flight hour approximately? That will give a better picture. I am sure 5 Gen jet will certainly be costlier to fly and maintain.


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## Nasr

The key to defeating the western stealth threat, lay in revolutionary electronic warfare from the ground, sea and air. A country that doesn't have the necessary resources to develop their own stealth fighter program, or have a comprehensively impenetrable Air Defense Network, ought to invest in development of advance electronic warfare systems.

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## LeGenD

Nasr said:


> The key to defeating the western stealth threat, lay in revolutionary electronic warfare from the ground, sea and air. A country that doesn't have the necessary resources to develop their own stealth fighter program, or have a comprehensively impenetrable Air Defense Network, ought to invest in development of advance electronic warfare systems.


Russia adopted this strategy in Ukraine and Syria respectively. Russian EW capabilities achieved wonders in Ukraine but failed to counter both US and Israel in Syria.

FYI: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf-analog/article/14173343/electronic-warfare-ew-avionics-f35

A country with struggling economy and other shortcomings cannot achieve supremacy in this game.

My take? Continue to invest in defensive applications but strive for lasting peace in the region.

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## python-000



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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep...and I doubt the US will go through as many issues with its future next-gen fighters. It is now focusing on simplifying R&D management and design/development (via digital twins etc). The US will hammer us with F-35s plus new (and many) UCAV designs, 5+ and 6-gen fighters, etc.
> 
> The world was foolish to think all that $$$ spent on R&D over the decades wasn't going to surface. China just showed that it's a big enough threat for the US to flex again, but that flex is a collective dressing down of UK, France, Germany, and everyone else who thought the US was losing it. Thanks China >_>



Hi,

Pres Trump made some claims just recently about stuff that no one know---.

A future next Gen fighter has already been developed by the US and in flight---.

The manufacturer claims that it was developed in one year---. Is it a shocking news---the time factor---NO---but another next gen fighter---that is.

Search for it on the web---the news just came out on yahoo a couple of days ago---and it disappeared.

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> A future next Gen fighter has already been developed by the US and in flight---.


If USA hasn't started its next Gen fighter project yet, that would be really a big news.


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## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> If USA hasn't started its next Gen fighter project yet, that would be really a big news.



Sir,

Developing it in 1 year is a big news.

" Even though the US Air Force’s flight of a demonstrator was not expected for years, the service took its ‘next generation air dominance’, or NGAD fighter from selection process to a virtual version to reportedly flying at least one prototype in just one year ".









Mysterious US jet with 'next-gen technology' has been built and flown: Report


The USAF has reportedly confirmed earlier this week to have secretly built and flown at least one prototype of its startling next-generation fighter jet.




www.republicworld.com

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## MastanKhan

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet


Does this give the Next Generation Air Dominance program more momentum, or does it open it up to more scrutiny?




news.yahoo.com


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Developing it in 1 year is a big news.
> 
> " Even though the US Air Force’s flight of a demonstrator was not expected for years, the service took its ‘next generation air dominance’, or NGAD fighter from selection process to a virtual version to reportedly flying at least one prototype in just one year ".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mysterious US jet with 'next-gen technology' has been built and flown: Report
> 
> 
> The USAF has reportedly confirmed earlier this week to have secretly built and flown at least one prototype of its startling next-generation fighter jet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.republicworld.com


...and this is just _one _project. We haven't gotten into the chance of them applying the Digital Century concept on loyal wingman drones, UCAVs, and other manned fighters. The US is aiming to return to the 1950s type of rapid development, many different platforms, etc.

This is a good example of KISS. The US is sticking to existing inputs/subsystems, but is developing different platforms on those inputs. It's looking at short production runs and re-instituting the culture of replacing old with new (instead of upgrading the old by prolonging lifecycles). Basically, keep the most difficult stuff (e.g., engines) for as long as possible, but change the solution or application using those inputs to keep up with the times. It also opens the industry up to experiment with new ideas, so we may see the return of lightweight fighters, or a true successor the C-130 Herc, for example.

The PAF will really need to think about this trend. Do we want to saddle ourselves with one platform for a long time? Or do we want to incentivize the private sector to constantly reinvest in new capacity to pump out new platforms every 7-10 years? What do we do to develop the latter scenario?

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...and this is just _one _project. We haven't gotten into the chance of them applying the Digital Century concept on loyal wingman drones, UCAVs, and other manned fighters. The US is aiming to return to the 1950s type of rapid development, many different platforms, etc.
> 
> This is a good example of KISS. The US is sticking to existing inputs/subsystems, but is developing different platforms on those inputs. It's looking at short production runs and re-instituting the culture of replacing old with new (instead of upgrading the old by prolonging lifecycles). Basically, keep the most difficult stuff (e.g., engines) for as long as possible, but change the solution or application using those inputs to keep up with the times. It also opens the industry up to experiment with new ideas, so we may see the return of lightweight fighters, or a true successor the C-130 Herc, for example.
> 
> The PAF will really need to think about this trend. Do we want to saddle ourselves with one platform for a long time? Or do we want to incentivize the private sector to constantly reinvest in new jigs and stuff to pump out new platforms every 10-15 years?



We need a similar program and encourage private sector to design.
I feel the US knows sooner or later it’ll be facing bigger powers and attrition will wear it down. Also, they’ve wasted time and money playing with small countries to no benefit in the long term.


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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet
> 
> 
> Does this give the Next Generation Air Dominance program more momentum, or does it open it up to more scrutiny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



a competitor strong enough to induct bags full of dollars into R&D and excel into new advancements, may have forced them to keep things secret like their competitor.

so is it justified to say F-35 even F-16 blk 70/72 is going to sell like hotcakes with whoever pays for it by lowering the US's own selection criteria of buying countries?

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...and this is just _one _project. We haven't gotten into the chance of them applying the Digital Century concept on loyal wingman drones, UCAVs, and other manned fighters. The US is aiming to return to the 1950s type of rapid development, many different platforms, etc.
> 
> This is a good example of KISS. The US is sticking to existing inputs/subsystems, but is developing different platforms on those inputs. It's looking at short production runs and re-instituting the culture of replacing old with new (instead of upgrading the old by prolonging lifecycles). Basically, keep the most difficult stuff (e.g., engines) for as long as possible, but change the solution or application using those inputs to keep up with the times. It also opens the industry up to experiment with new ideas, so we may see the return of lightweight fighters, or a true successor the C-130 Herc, for example.
> 
> The PAF will really need to think about this trend. Do we want to saddle ourselves with one platform for a long time? Or do we want to incentivize the private sector to constantly reinvest in new capacity to pump out new platforms every 7-10 years? What do we do to develop the latter scenario?




Well I would argue that the PAF did indeed anticipate this. US is just realising it also needs affordable and effective platforms in numbers. Whilst the rest of the world was focusing on twin engine heavy fighters or super expensive stealth, essentially just Sweden and Pakistan went down a route of cheap and lightweight fighters Something that had gone out of fashion since the F-5/MIG-21

We know have a fighter that whilst not as capable as say a SU-30 or Rafale, gives us much of the capability for much much lower cost. USAF now find themselves in a situation where they have to upgrade more F-16s and F-15s and even order new F-15s. This is simply due to not having numbers and going for very high end.

Likewise with AZM, it seems that this is just not one project but several using elements of the same tech.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Well I would argue that the PAF did indeed anticipate this. US is just realising it also needs affordable and effective platforms in numbers. Whilst the rest of the world was focusing on twin engine heavy fighters or super expensive stealth, essentially just Sweden and Pakistan went down a route of cheap and lightweight fighters Something that had gone out of fashion since the F-5/MIG-21
> 
> We know have a fighter that whilst not as capable as say a SU-30 or Rafale, gives us much of the capability for much much lower cost. USAF now find themselves in a situation where they have to upgrade more F-16s and F-15s and even order new F-15s. This is simply due to not having numbers and going for very high end.
> 
> Likewise with AZM, it seems that this is just not one project but several using elements of the same tech.


Yep. The key is making AZM's critical inputs -- i.e., engine, radar (or TRM tech), etc -- available to as many design institutes (including in the private sector) to come up with applications. 

So, while the PAF may want a twin-engine fighter, perhaps someone else (be AvRID or private sector) can come up with a single-engine lightweight as a complementary solution or trainer or something.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. The key is making AZM's critical inputs -- i.e., engine, radar (or TRM tech), etc -- available to as many design institutes (including in the private sector) to come up with applications.
> 
> So, while the PAF may want a twin-engine fighter, perhaps someone else (be AvRID or private sector) can come up with a single-engine lightweight as a complementary solution or trainer or something.



Yes, as you say, it is the critical elements. Engine and radar. With JF-17 experience we can now handle airframes and systems integration (we can even build our own Eriyes once we buy just the radar!). 

Engine and AESA will require foreign component. China can still not rival the very best that P&W or GE can build. This is basically due to mastering fan blade metallurgy. Not easy at all but they are getting there. This is why Chinese can make low powered engines or ones that need overhaul often. Once they master this we can see extremely powerful and sophisticated engines on class of F119 and Eurojet EJ2000

AESA wise in 5-10 years I really suspect China will surpass or at least match Europe/US.

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## Figaro

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, as you say, it is the critical elements. Engine and radar. With JF-17 experience we can now handle airframes and systems integration (we can even build our own Eriyes once we buy just the radar!).
> 
> Engine and AESA will require foreign component. China can still not rival the very best that P&W or GE can build. This is basically due to mastering fan blade metallurgy. Not easy at all but they are getting there. This is why Chinese can make low powered engines or ones that need overhaul often. Once they master this we can see extremely powerful and sophisticated engines on class of F119 and Eurojet EJ2000


Actually this is not true. The Chinese are best in high thrust turbofans and the weakest in low thrust turbofans due to a lack of investment in the area. That is why they still rely on Motor Sich for the AL-222 for the L-15 trainer aircraft. The main issue historically with the Chinese gas turbine industry is the manufacturing quality of the single crystal superalloy and P/M disks. But ever since 2017, they are able to produce superalloy with a 90% yield rate (the best indicator of material quality), which is pretty comparable to Western engine makers. That is why the J-20, J-10C, and all major aircrafts of the PLAAF has switched to Chinese engines now. Regarding the lifespan issue, the WS-10 was reported to have a 1500 hour service life with 300 hours "regular maintenance" back in 2014, which was the original design specs. I have no doubt the latest WS-10s have exceeded this but they still have considerably lower lifespans than the F110GE-132 or F119, which is something that can only be solved by the next generation of engines.


Yasser76 said:


> Once they master this we can see extremely powerful and sophisticated engines on class of F119 and Eurojet EJ2000


The Chinese have two engine programs directed to this. The WS-15 is expected to be incorporated into the J-20 between 2021 and 2023 while the WS-19 will take a little longer, although progress is very fast. Both are T/W > 10 engines. 

WS-15 : 180 kN engine (analogous to the F119 or F135) ---> J-20, H-20, future single engine fighter
WS-19 : 110 kN engine (analogous to a heavily uprated EJ200) ---> J-35, FC-31, AZM

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Figaro said:


> Actually this is not true. The Chinese are best in high thrust turbofans and the weakest in low thrust turbofans due to a lack of investment in the area. That is why they still rely on Motor Sich for the AL-222 for the L-15 trainer aircraft. The main issue historically with the Chinese gas turbine industry is the manufacturing quality of the single crystal superalloy and P/M disks. But ever since 2017, they are able to produce superalloy with a 90% yield rate (the best indicator of material quality), which is pretty comparable to Western engine makers. That is why the J-20, J-10C, and all major aircrafts of the PLAAF has switched to Chinese engines now. Regarding the lifespan issue, the WS-10 was reported to have a 1500 hour service life with 300 hours "regular maintenance" back in 2014, which was the original design specs. I have no doubt the latest WS-10s have exceeded this but they still have considerably lower lifespans than the F110GE-132 or F119, which is something that can only be solved by the next generation of engines.
> 
> The Chinese have two engine programs directed to this. The WS-15 is expected to be incorporated into the J-20 between 2021 and 2023 while the WS-19 will take a little longer, although progress is very fast. Both are T/W > 10 engines.
> 
> WS-15 : 180 kN engine (analogous to the F119 or F135) ---> J-20, H-20, future single engine fighter
> WS-19 : 110 kN engine (analogous to a heavily uprated EJ200) ---> J-35, FC-31, AZM


The PAF also said it wants super-cruising with AZM/FGFA, so, unless it's somehow got-in on the F414/EJ200/M88, it's probably looking at the WS-19/WS-15.

But if AVIC makes it easy for our private industry to buy these engines, our companies could start designing their own equipment. So, for example, access to a 10 kN Chinese engine can help some Pakistani companies develop a loyal wingman UAV. The key is cutting the red-tape and simplifying collaboration between Chinese and Pakistani companies.

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## Figaro

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF also said it wants super-cruising with AZM/FGFA, so, unless it's somehow got-in on the F414/EJ200/M88, it's probably looking at the WS-19/WS-15.


If the AZM is aiming for a J-20/Su-57/F-22 weight class, then it will be the WS-15. If it is aiming for a medium weight class like the FC-31, then the WS-19 will do. I'm sure either engine could be upscaled or downscaled in thrust if the AZM wants something in the middle, to an extent.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Figaro said:


> If the AZM is aiming for a J-20/Su-57/F-22 weight class, then it will be the WS-15. If it is aiming for a medium weight class like the FC-31, then the WS-19 will do. I'm sure either engine could be upscaled or downscaled in thrust if the AZM wants something in the middle to an extent.


_If _the PAF is aiming for a single fighter fleet, then AZM could end up being in-between the FC-31 and J-20. So, an approximate MTOW of 29,000 kg to 32,000 kg. It might be a situation of trying to pull more range, so having more space for internal fuel. But at the same time, they'll want to control operating costs. I think WS-19 would be a good fit.

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## GreyHat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> _If _the PAF is aiming for a single fighter fleet, then AZM could end up being in-between the FC-31 and J-20. So, an approximate MTOW of 29,000 kg to 32,000 kg. It might be a situation of trying to pull more range, so having more space for internal fuel. But at the same time, they'll want to control operating costs. I think WS-19 would be a good fit.


I don't think it is plausible that PAF can afford a Single fleet Fighter Jet. Sure the cost and logistics can be reduced a lot more, & As you mentioned, China could catch up in Engine manufacturing & AESA department until the time Project Azm could be in final shape. But is it really viable to restrict the fleet so much that benefits of fighter jets that might be easier to get (TFx , FC-31) should not attained keeping in mind that they can/will have better performance in some department which AZM Does not Excel in?

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## Yasser76

Figaro said:


> Actually this is not true. The Chinese are best in high thrust turbofans and the weakest in low thrust turbofans due to a lack of investment in the area. That is why they still rely on Motor Sich for the AL-222 for the L-15 trainer aircraft. The main issue historically with the Chinese gas turbine industry is the manufacturing quality of the single crystal superalloy and P/M disks. But ever since 2017, they are able to produce superalloy with a 90% yield rate (the best indicator of material quality), which is pretty comparable to Western engine makers. That is why the J-20, J-10C, and all major aircrafts of the PLAAF has switched to Chinese engines now. Regarding the lifespan issue, the WS-10 was reported to have a 1500 hour service life with 300 hours "regular maintenance" back in 2014, which was the original design specs. I have no doubt the latest WS-10s have exceeded this but they still have considerably lower lifespans than the F110GE-132 or F119, which is something that can only be solved by the next generation of engines.
> 
> The Chinese have two engine programs directed to this. The WS-15 is expected to be incorporated into the J-20 between 2021 and 2023 while the WS-19 will take a little longer, although progress is very fast. Both are T/W > 10 engines.
> 
> WS-15 : 180 kN engine (analogous to the F119 or F135) ---> J-20, H-20, future single engine fighter
> WS-19 : 110 kN engine (analogous to a heavily uprated EJ200) ---> J-35, FC-31, AZM



Indeed you are correct in terms of low thrust. With regards to WS-15 and WS-19, even if ready I imagine PAF will want to see this being flown in real conditions by Chinese for a few years before we adopt it.


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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF also said it wants super-cruising with AZM/FGFA, so, unless it's somehow got-in on the F414/EJ200/M88, it's probably looking at the WS-19/WS-15.
> 
> But if AVIC makes it easy for our private industry to buy these engines, our companies could start designing their own equipment. So, for example, access to a 10 kN Chinese engine can help some Pakistani companies develop a loyal wingman UAV. The key is cutting the red-tape and simplifying collaboration between Chinese and Pakistani companies.



Indeed, even out going Chinese Ambassador said only issue in our relationship with them is getting more Pakistanis in Pak Gov who understand how Chinese companies work. It is shocking that after all these years of collaboration we still need to progress on such a basic front

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Well I would argue that the PAF did indeed anticipate this. US is just realising it also needs affordable and effective platforms in numbers. Whilst the rest of the world was focusing on twin engine heavy fighters or super expensive stealth, essentially just Sweden and Pakistan went down a route of cheap and lightweight fighters Something that had gone out of fashion since the F-5/MIG-21
> 
> We know have a fighter that whilst not as capable as say a SU-30 or Rafale, gives us much of the capability for much much lower cost. USAF now find themselves in a situation where they have to upgrade more F-16s and F-15s and even order new F-15s. This is simply due to not having numbers and going for very high end.
> 
> Likewise with AZM, it seems that this is just not one project but several using elements of the same tech.


Thank you for an interesting perspective on the prevailing situation from both yourself and @Bilal Khan (Quwa). What I:wanted to point out is the possibility that US may indeed return to ordering more F35s as production ramps up and per unit cost goes down. It seems they do not have a replacement for the mighty F15 given its utility. To some extent neither F16s nor F35s/22s can replace this for obvious reasons. One wonders whether there maybe a hybrid solution ala the silent eagle on the 22s but obviously it would compromize its utility to some extent.
From PAF's perspective we need cheap affordable platforms in numbers that are/easy tocmaintain and manufacture and where technology could be updated as it becomes available.
A

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> Thank you for an interesting perspective on the prevailing situation from both yourself and @Bilal Khan (Quwa). What I:wanted to point out is the possibility that US may indeed return to ordering more F35s as production ramps up and per unit cost goes down. It seems they do not have a replacement for the mighty F15 given its utility. To some extent neither F16s nor F35s/22s can replace this for obvious reasons. One wonders whether there maybe a hybrid solution ala the silent eagle on the 22s but obviously it would compromize its utility to some extent.
> From PAF's perspective we need cheap affordable platforms in numbers that are/easy tocmaintain and manufacture and where technology could be updated as it becomes available.
> A




Many thanks for your words. Well we certainly live in interesting times. Historically PAF always had a large number of "low end" complemented by a small number of "high end"

in the 50s/60s this was Sabre/F-104 Starfighter, in the 70s this was basically F-6/Mirage combo and in the 80s/90s this was basically F-7-Mirage/F-16A and now basically JF-17/ F-16 MLU/C/D (F-7 now pretty much relegated to second line duties).

Question is does PAF continue this strategy of low end and high end? Thank goodness we are not taking an IAF approach of basically having 7 overlapping types all capable of doing the same job!

If we go high end and low end again what does that look like? in 10 years even Block 52 F-16 will be considered "low end".. So do we have a "low end" force of JF-17 Block III/F-16 C/Ds and a high end of AZM?

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## Pakistan Space Agency

PakFactor said:


> We need a similar program and encourage private sector to design. ...



Private sector can design but can it deliver? Look at the failed project like the LCA Flying Rickshaw for an example.

Do we know the reasons why FC-31 has still not been inducted by a single air force?

@MastanKhan says it's because the US won't allow it.


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## LKJ86

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Do we know the reasons why FC-31 has still not been inducted by a single air force?
> 
> @MastanKhan says it's because the US won't allow it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GreyHat said:


> I don't think it is plausible that PAF can afford a Single fleet Fighter Jet. Sure the cost and logistics can be reduced a lot more, & As you mentioned, China could catch up in Engine manufacturing & AESA department until the time Project Azm could be in final shape. But is it really viable to restrict the fleet so much that benefits of fighter jets that might be easier to get (TFx , FC-31) should not attained keeping in mind that they can/will have better performance in some department which AZM Does not Excel in?


I think it depends. 

Today, the hi/lo mix makes sense for the PAF because we operate lightweight and medium-weight frames. In addition, our access to medium-weight frames is generally restricted due to cost or other issues. And we are able to make a lightweight airframe at home with China's help.

However, with AZM (or even FC-31) we would get our biggest airframe to-date. The range, payload and on-board electronics/capability restrictions are gone. So, does 'lightweight' or 'medium-weight' even matter if the PAF continually has a fighter that can do everything it needs it to do? 

The only reason we'd maintain multiple fighter types is (1) to fulfil niche roles and (2) the cost of twin-engine jets is too high for sustaining a single fighter fleet. 

I don't know how much of a factor cost will be since we will have to evaluate the fighter on a cost-per-flight-hour basis. China's economies-of-scale could make the WS-19 a generally affordable system, for example. 

Now if we're talking about (2) -- e.g., a dedicated stealth strike fighter or light-bomber -- then that's probably a different story.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think it depends.
> 
> Today, the hi/lo mix makes sense for the PAF because we operate lightweight and medium-weight frames. In addition, our access to medium-weight frames is generally restricted due to cost or other issues. And we are able to make a lightweight airframe at home with China's help.
> 
> However, with AZM (or even FC-31) we would get our biggest airframe to-date. The range, payload and on-board electronics/capability restrictions are gone. So, does 'lightweight' or 'medium-weight' even matter if the PAF continually has a fighter that can do everything it needs it to do?
> 
> The only reason we'd maintain multiple fighter types is (1) to fulfil niche roles and (2) the cost of twin-engine jets is too high for sustaining a single fighter fleet.
> 
> I don't know how much of a factor cost will be since we will have to evaluate the fighter on a cost-per-flight-hour basis. China's economies-of-scale could make the WS-19 a generally affordable system, for example.
> 
> Now if we're talking about (2) -- e.g., a dedicated stealth strike fighter or light-bomber -- then that's probably a different story.




Also need to throw into the mix that we can never again allow us to be held hostage to one country. China has and I suspect always will be, Pakistan's strongest ally but no one can predict the future 20 years from now. A totally all Chinese fleet does provide some element (albeit very small) of risk. I am sure in the early 80s when new F-16s were being delivered we did not imagine 10 years later in 1991 a total arms embargo by US.

I think mix of JF-17 Block III where PAF can still fully support itself independently and a AZM with great Chinese input maybe the future. Unsure where (if anywhere) European/Turkish suppliers fit in. I really doubt PAF (for many reasons) will want to cut off all technical/training ties with the West

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Also need to throw into the mix that we can never again allow us to be held hostage to one country. China has and I suspect always will be, Pakistan's strongest ally but no one can predict the future 20 years from now. A totally all Chinese fleet does provide some element (albeit very small) of risk. I am sure in the early 80s when new F-16s were being delivered we did not imagine 10 years later in 1991 a total arms embargo by US.
> 
> I think mix of JF-17 Block III where PAF can still fully support itself independently and a AZM with great Chinese input maybe the future. Unsure where (if anywhere) European/Turkish suppliers fit in. I really doubt PAF (for many reasons) will want to cut off all technical/training ties with the West


Turkey's got a gas turbine program. I'd put some money on the Turkish turbofan if it means we co-own the IP of the final product. It may or may not succeed in the end, but what's the harm in hedging?

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## Syed1.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but wouldn't engine selection be driven by size, weight of the aircraft as well as design cruise altitude range and loiter/combat radius. This would mean that you don't buy an engine and build a jet around it, rather you want close collaboration with the engine manufacturer and engine selection starts from the conceptual design phase. 

From the discussion here it seems we are waiting for the Chinese to build a competent engine for THEIR needs and we just buy it and make it work for our FGFA.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed1. said:


> Correct me if I'm mistaken but wouldn't engine selection be driven by size, weight of the aircraft as well as design cruise altitude range and loiter/combat radius. This would mean that you don't buy an engine and build a jet around it, rather you want close collaboration with the engine manufacturer and engine selection starts from the conceptual design phase.
> 
> From the discussion here it seems we are waiting for the Chinese to build a competent engine for THEIR needs and we just buy it and make it work for our FGFA.


It depends.

The starting point is the PAF setting its general requirements. I think this part was complete with the "first conceptual design phase" of the project. The PAF wants a twin-engine jet with super-cruising capability. We can assume the PAF is also looking for enough capacity for delivering SOWs. 

So AvRID should have an idea of what kind of engine it wants.

It will now look at the market to see what's available.

IIRC the safer route is to select and engine and then design the fighter around it. The PAF is indeed waiting for a Chinese (or some ITAR-free engine available to it, the only non-Chinese route is Turkey tbh). 

Yes, the engine would be developed for someone else's needs, but they're functionally the same across the board that it's not an issue as long as the ASR is met. 

I do think we should hedge with the Turks, especially if they're open to two engine programs (i.e., the 130 kN for their TF-X and a 90+ kN for their LIFT Hurjet -- we can fund the latter engine).

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends.
> 
> The starting point is the PAF setting its general requirements. I think this part was complete with the "first conceptual design phase" of the project. The PAF wants a twin-engine jet with super-cruising capability. We can assume the PAF is also looking for enough capacity for delivering SOWs.
> 
> So AvRID should have an idea of what kind of engine it wants.
> 
> It will now look at the market to see what's available.
> 
> IIRC the safer route is to select and engine and then design the fighter around it. The PAF is indeed waiting for a Chinese (or some ITAR-free engine available to it, the only non-Chinese route is Turkey tbh).
> 
> Yes, the engine would be developed for someone else's needs, but they're functionally the same across the board that it's not an issue as long as the ASR is met.
> 
> I do think we should hedge with the Turks, especially if they're open to two engine programs (i.e., the 130 kN for their TF-X and a 90+ kN for their LIFT Hurjet -- we can fund the latter engine).




I heard that Rolls Royce and Kale Pratt Whitney - TEI cooperation (Trmotor) continues, but this is for TFX. In such an economic environment, TAI -TEI can't dreams develop new engine for Hurjet. Even Hürjet itself covers the development costs from TAI's own budget. Working with Rolls Royce in India as far as I know, they play a little too lobbying for Pakistan. I think Pac's strategy will be to complete the project with minimal input like JF17 and then replace them with their native counterparts. This includes the engine. As your Chinese friend said, prototype or phase 1 (whatever you say) stage will use WS series engines.

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## Deino

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Private sector can design but can it deliver? Look at the failed project like the LCA Flying Rickshaw for an example.
> 
> Do we know the reasons why FC-31 has still not been inducted by a single air force?
> 
> @MastanKhan says it's because the US won't allow it.




And you believe him? 

Why on earth should the USA have even the slightest saying in if or if not to export the FC-31?

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends.
> 
> The starting point is the PAF setting its general requirements. I think this part was complete with the "first conceptual design phase" of the project. The PAF wants a twin-engine jet with super-cruising capability. We can assume the PAF is also looking for enough capacity for delivering SOWs.
> 
> So AvRID should have an idea of what kind of engine it wants.
> 
> It will now look at the market to see what's available.
> 
> IIRC the safer route is to select and engine and then design the fighter around it. The PAF is indeed waiting for a Chinese (or some ITAR-free engine available to it, the only non-Chinese route is Turkey tbh).
> 
> Yes, the engine would be developed for someone else's needs, but they're functionally the same across the board that it's not an issue as long as the ASR is met.
> 
> I do think we should hedge with the Turks, especially if they're open to two engine programs (i.e., the 130 kN for their TF-X and a 90+ kN for their LIFT Hurjet -- we can fund the latter engine).


Hypothetical question: Lets say J-31 with PAF customization is selected. What happens to AZM?


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Deino said:


> And you believe him?
> 
> Why on earth should the USA have even the slightest saying in if or if not to export the FC-31?



Of course not but his argument is that FC-31 is stolen technology of F-22 or F-35 that the US is willing to fight a war over should China build it.

But ofcourse it's already been built, at least 3 prototypes of it.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Hypothetical question: Lets say J-31 with PAF customization is selected. What happens to AZM?


Depends.

If AZM was always meant to be a developmental effort, it would continue as our indigenous project. But if we were to pick-up FC-31/J-35, then I think we would likely steer AZM into a heavyweight, strike-focused aircraft.

OTOH, if we were always going to focus on one platform, then one of two things:

1. We pick up FC-31 and, more or less, close the book on AZM.

2. We pick up FC-31 and work on AZM as a means to develop our R&D base. So, we may not even produce our own fighter per se, but we could develop flight control tech, composites, avionics, etc. We use that basis to localize our inputs for the J-35, or we take on a 6th-gen fighter much later on.

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## CrazyZ

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Depends.
> 
> If AZM was always meant to be a developmental effort, it would continue as our indigenous project. But if we were to pick-up FC-31/J-35, then I think we would likely steer AZM into a heavyweight, strike-focused aircraft.
> 
> OTOH, if we were always going to focus on one platform, then one of two things:
> 
> 1. We pick up FC-31 and, more or less, close the book on AZM.
> 
> 2. We pick up FC-31 and work on AZM as a means to develop our R&D base. So, we may not even produce our own fighter per se, but we could develop flight control tech, composites, avionics, etc. We use that basis to localize our inputs for the J-35, or we take on a 6th-gen fighter much later on.


I believe the Chinese will develop FC-31 into a good 5 gen fighter in a few years that will be availble for purchase. My opinion is AZM should go one of two ways....either be more land/naval strike oriented AC....or be a lesser 5 gen aircraft, a stealthy air frame but with off the shelve j10 components. Some thing that could get into service quick but may lack some features like super cruise. 

6th gen is a bit of a gimmick right now...they will be more of an evolution of 5th gen. Not a big leap.

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## MastanKhan

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Private sector can design but can it deliver? Look at the failed project like the LCA Flying Rickshaw for an example.
> 
> Do we know the reasons why FC-31 has still not been inducted by a single air force?
> 
> @MastanKhan says it's because the US won't allow it.



Hi,

When it came out---there was a case of massive retaliation by the US---not military necessarily---but sanctions of other kind. The US took it as a personal insult to its integrity---.

But today---the US does not care if the chinese proceed further in that field---.

What has come to knowledge of the US is that the chinese are still far behind in the power plant technology and electronics---. Even though they have come up with very potent BVR missiles that have looked good and promising on paper---the americans have moved ahead in leaps and bounds---.

The technological breakthrough that the US has made---has made the US able and capable to produce extremely extremely potent weapons systems in a very short time.

Just remember---what mattered to the US 5 years ago---may not matter to them 5 years later---. Because they have spent those 5 years assessing analyzing and over coming that concern---.

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## Figaro

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Do we know the reasons why FC-31 has still not been inducted by a single air force?


Because it was a privately funded project without the support of the Chinese military. Note the FC-31 was basically SAC's, the company which lost the bid for the fifth generation fighter project now known as J-20, attempt to develop a fifth generation fighter. Since it found no interest in the PLAAF, it switched its gears to export, which as you know was not successful (after all, who would want to purchase a demonstrator aircraft not even wanted by the Chinese military?). But in recent years, the naval offshoot of the FC-31, the J-35, has been possibly backed by the Chinese military for the 5th generation carrier fighter and as such has made a huge leap forward over the latest FC-31 prototypes that came out in 2016. Now, most of SAC's effort/resources is directed towards the J-35 as opposed to the FC-31, which has not made significant improvements. I have heard the FC-31 and J-35, while originating from the same base, have parted ways significantly so it is much more likely Pakistan will induct the J-35 (or its export variant) as opposed to the FC-31.


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> @MastanKhan says it's because the US won't allow it.


Nonsense. The Chinese MIC has already been sanctioned beyond relief since 1989 ...


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When it came out---there was a case of massive retaliation by the US---not military necessarily---but sanctions of other kind. The US took it as a personal insult to its integrity---.
> 
> But today---the US does not care if the chinese proceed further in that field---.
> 
> What has come to knowledge of the US is that the chinese are still far behind in the power plant technology and electronics---. Even though they have come up with very potent BVR missiles that have looked good and promising on paper---the americans have moved ahead in leaps and bounds---.
> 
> The technological breakthrough that the US has made---has made the US able and capable to produce extremely extremely potent weapons systems in a very short time.
> 
> Just remember---what mattered to the US 5 years ago---may not matter to them 5 years later---. Because they have spent those 5 years assessing analyzing and over coming that concern---.


I highly highly doubt the Chinese military gives a second's thought about the US' personal integrity. This argument is absolutely senseless.

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## LKJ86

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Of course not but his argument is that FC-31 is stolen technology of F-22 or F-35 that the US is willing to fight a war over should China build it.
> 
> But ofcourse it's already been built, at least 3 prototypes of it.


Yep, China even can steal something that USA doesn't have.

Besides, don't forget that who is really the king of hacking in the world.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> Because it was a privately funded project without the support of the Chinese military. Note the FC-31 was basically SAC's, the company which lost the bid for the fifth generation fighter project now known as J-20, attempt to develop a fifth generation fighter. Since it found no interest in the PLAAF, it switched its gears to export, which as you know was not successful (after all, who would want to purchase a demonstrator aircraft not even wanted by the Chinese military?). But in recent years, the naval offshoot of the FC-31, the J-35, has been possibly backed by the Chinese military for the 5th generation carrier fighter and as such has made a huge leap forward over the latest FC-31 prototypes that came out in 2016. Now, most of SAC's effort/resources is directed towards the J-35 as opposed to the FC-31, which has not made significant improvements. I have heard the FC-31 and J-35, while originating from the same base, have parted ways significantly so it is much more likely Pakistan will induct the J-35 (or its export variant) as opposed to the FC-31.


It is impossible for PLA to develop two completely different 5th-generation fighters almost at the same time. (J-20 made its maiden flight in 2011, and FC-31 in 2012)

From the beginning, J-20 is a PLAAF-led project basing on China's whole aviation industry (not just AVIC), and FC-31 are just SAC's technology demonstrators.

After J-20 is inducted into service, it is time to develop J-35.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Depends.
> 
> If AZM was always meant to be a developmental effort, it would continue as our indigenous project. But if we were to pick-up FC-31/J-35, then I think we would likely steer AZM into a heavyweight, strike-focused aircraft.
> 
> OTOH, if we were always going to focus on one platform, then one of two things:
> 
> 1. We pick up FC-31 and, more or less, close the book on AZM.
> 
> 2. We pick up FC-31 and work on AZM as a means to develop our R&D base. So, we may not even produce our own fighter per se, but we could develop flight control tech, composites, avionics, etc. We use that basis to localize our inputs for the J-35, or we take on a 6th-gen fighter much later on.


pakistan needs a stop gap fighter till azm comes online in 2035..
that fighter should either be western 4.5 gen(f16b70) or Chinese 5th gen fighter 

unless ofcourse the chinese think pakistan as strategic patner and are helping out on azm secretly, this might acce azm to 2030 time line(highly unlikly, chinese dont think this way)


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## MastanKhan

Figaro said:


> Nonsense. The Chinese MIC has already been sanctioned beyond relief since 1989 ...
> 
> I highly highly doubt the Chinese military gives a second's thought about the US' personal integrity. This argument is absolutely senseless.



Hi,

You may chose to argue---. I don't.

I am making a statement---. I am telling how it is---.


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## GreyHat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think it depends.
> 
> Today, the hi/lo mix makes sense for the PAF because we operate lightweight and medium-weight frames. In addition, our access to medium-weight frames is generally restricted due to cost or other issues. And we are able to make a lightweight airframe at home with China's help.
> 
> However, with AZM (or even FC-31) we would get our biggest airframe to-date. The range, payload and on-board electronics/capability restrictions are gone. So, does 'lightweight' or 'medium-weight' even matter if the PAF continually has a fighter that can do everything it needs it to do?
> 
> The only reason we'd maintain multiple fighter types is (1) to fulfil niche roles and (2) the cost of twin-engine jets is too high for sustaining a single fighter fleet.
> 
> I don't know how much of a factor cost will be since we will have to evaluate the fighter on a cost-per-flight-hour basis. China's economies-of-scale could make the WS-19 a generally affordable system, for example.
> 
> Now if we're talking about (2) -- e.g., a dedicated stealth strike fighter or light-bomber -- then that's probably a different story.


Well I think it will be very hard to satisfy a single frame that can excel in everything. Two Countries are struggling to perfect their 5th Generation Jet(China & Russia) both of them are looking for a 2nd main as well, having different attributes in them.

One can argue that they are making it, because the prominent defence companies in their environment have to produce results. But, YF-23 comes in special contention here because firstly, it was not persued(Although YF-17 was rejected but still persued by Navy for F-18).But, such need was not felt at ATF(YF-22 , YF-23) times. But now, not only F-35 is there, A hybrid of f-22 & f-35 is in contention as well. I am assuming that It is specifically because both might lack(or deficiencies for better use of words) in some specific department.

For Pakistan, Yes, Opening to a MWF, gives them alot of space to play with, But I don't think up until the development of 5th Generation fighter jets at least, Pakistan would not "bat an eye" for fighter jet makers or system makers that are currently superior than our position at this moment.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

ziaulislam said:


> pakistan needs a stop gap fighter till azm comes online in 2035..
> that fighter should either be western 4.5 gen(f16b70) or Chinese 5th gen fighter
> 
> unless ofcourse the chinese think pakistan as strategic patner and are helping out on azm secretly, this might acce azm to 2030 time line(highly unlikly, chinese dont think this way)



Is there a series shortage in the PAF that it requires stop gap fighters or is there an urgency for acceleration of Azm for some reason because I don't see the enemy getting a Fifth Generation Fighter any time soon.


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## python-000

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Is there a series shortage in the PAF that it requires stop gap fighters or is there an urgency for acceleration of Azm for so.e reason because I don't see the enemy getting a Fifth Generation Fighter any time soon.


So my bro, you are saying when our enemy get 5th generation fighter then we start thinking about 5th generation & the world talking about 6th generation...


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## Pakistan Space Agency

python-000 said:


> So my bro, you are saying when our enemy get 5th generation fighter then we start thinking about 5th generation & the world talking about 6th generation...



No but you have to know what your up against.

What is Pakistan up against?
230+ Su-30 MKIs
36 Rafales

Where is adversary's Fifth Generation Fighter? Why hasn't the adversary rushed to acquire a Fifth Generation Fighter when the world is researching Sixth Generation Fighters?

So, do explain why Pakistan needs a stop gap fighter (FC-31 / J-35) or Project Azm needs to be accelerated?

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## Path-Finder

I don't know what is worse the shooting in the dark or over speculations.


----------



## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You may chose to argue---. I don't.
> 
> I am making a statement---. I am telling how it is---.



Sorry, couldn't resist; as such just a minor correction by a teacher! 



> You may chose to argue---. I don't argue *whenever I ran out of arguments or my opponents arguments don't fit my opinion.*
> 
> I am making a statement---. I am telling how it is *in my opinion, which is not necessarily based on facts but more on ego, hubris and arrogance against anyone who does not share MY opinion*.



@Mangus Ortus Novem @Figaro

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## Readerdefence

Hi by the time PAF develops the AZM isnt it possible that the world will be experiencing with some very advance stealth detection mode radars 
as I’m sure if USA is going towards 6th generation they must have sorted out something about detecting 5th generation fighters well in advance 
any info about any radar development accordingly 
@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
thank you


----------



## python-000

Seems like j-31B is in production line just look at this beast PAF...

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist; as such just a minor correction by a teacher!
> 
> 
> 
> @Mangus Ortus Novem



Hi,

Alright---so that made you happy---.

But do write something about weapons and weapons systems---and not stuff stolen from others---.


----------



## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi by the time PAF develops the AZM isnt it possible that the world will be experiencing with some very advance stealth detection mode radars
> as I’m sure if USA is going towards 6th generation they must have sorted out something about detecting 5th generation fighters well in advance
> any info about any radar development accordingly
> @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> thank you



Hi,

That does not stop development from taking place---.

In a given time---any radar manufacturer can stumble across detecting stealth aircraft---.

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## Deino

python-000 said:


> View attachment 673668
> 
> Seems like j-31B is in production line just look at this beast PAF...




Why do you think this is the J-31B? In cat it is the well known old FC-31V2 we all know now as the second flying demonstrator numbered 31003 and that image was already posted at least since August 2017!















MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Alright---so that made you happy---.
> 
> But do write something about weapons and weapons systems---and not stuff stolen from others---.




And why then are you making so many mistakes and still post BS claims (shall I remember to all the stupid claims you "fully agreed on the Block 3 JF-17 including AMRAAM integration and an Italian engine" ?) even if by your own perception you are the only one qualified to something about weapons and weapons systems?

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Why do you think this is the J-31B? In cat it is the well known old FC-31V2 we all know now as the second flying demonstrator numbered 31003 and that image was already posted at least since August 2017!
> 
> View attachment 673705
> 
> 
> View attachment 673706
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And why then are you making so many mistakes and still post BS claims (shall I remember to all the stupid claims you "fully agreed on the Block 3 JF-17 including AMRAAM integration and an Italian engine" ?) even if by your own perception you are the only one qualified to something about weapons and weapons systems?



Hi,

Your knowledge is based on " LINKS " that is what you ask for from others---no links---no knowledge for you---.

What if my knowledge is not based on links---what then---.

Just an example---there are 3 items that I suggested for Pak navy about close to 8-10 years ago on this forum long before anyone had any clue---the JH7A's---chinese submarines---and Type 054's---.

Type 054 is in trails right now---the first sub should be coming out in a year and a half---. So 2 out of 3 are already in---.

You were one of them on sinodef who claimed that pakistan is broke---pakistan is poor---pakistan is a beggar nation---pakistan will not get anything from china---.

Even though you claimed pakistan to be a beggar nation years ago---pakistani @WebMaster has made you a moderator on this very forum---.

Maybe I know a lot more than you can imagine---maybe I don't need links to get my information---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> ...
> Just an example---there are 3 items that I suggested for Pak navy about close to 8-10 years ago on this forum long before anyone had any clue---the JH7A's---chinese submarines---and Type 054's---.
> 
> Type 054 is in trails right now---the first sub should be coming out in a year and a half---. So 2 out of 3 are already in---.
> 
> You were one of them on sinodef who claimed that pakistan is broke---pakistan is poor---pakistan is a beggar nation---pakistan will not get anything from china---.
> 
> Even though you claimed pakistan to be a beggar nation years ago---pakistani @WebMaster has made you a moderator on this very forum---.
> 
> Maybe I know a lot more than you can imagine---maybe I don't need links to get my information---.




------I never said "pakistan is broke---pakistan is poor---pakistan is a beggar nation"; I only noted that indeed "pakistan will not get anything from china" like your overhyped claims including Type 055, the Liaoning, JH-7A, J-15, J-16, J-20 and so on.

You were correct in one point - one that I never refuted since it was not on discussion! - but you are still wrong with so many other: no JH-7A, no J-16, no J-20, no 055, no Liaoning ... and also no AMRAAM on the JF-17 and no Italian engine!

But I'm sure all this is beyond my and surely webmaster's imagination since only You know.

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Oh poor old man, that truly must hurt you or at least your ego!? It hurts so much that again you are lying and twisting words; but maybe it's your age: I never said "pakistan is broke---pakistan is poor---pakistan is a beggar nation"; I only noted that indeed "pakistan will not get anything from china" like your overhyped claims including Type 055, the Liaoning, JH-7A, J-15, J-16, J-20 and so on.
> 
> Ok, like a defunct clock, that is also correct twice a day You were correct in one point - one that I never refuted since it was not on discussion! - but you are still wrong with so many other: no JH-7A, no J-16, no J-20, no 055, no Liaoning ... and also no AMRAAM on the JF-17 and no Italian engine!
> 
> But I'm sure all this is beyond my and surely webmaster's imagination since only You know.



Hi,

People are excited about the first tranche of BLK3---Wait till the second tranche of BLK3 comes out---

Poster like you were saying the same thing before the Type 054 and submarine deal got done with the chinese---.

When pak placed the order for the 054's and the subs---and when the first 054 got sea launched---those posters cannot be found anywhere---.

Your ending won't be any different from them---it is just a matter of time.

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## Akh1112

Deino said:


> Oh poor old man, that truly must hurt you or at least your ego!? It hurts so much that again you are lying and twisting words; but maybe it's your age: I never said "pakistan is broke---pakistan is poor---pakistan is a beggar nation"; I only noted that indeed "pakistan will not get anything from china" like your overhyped claims including Type 055, the Liaoning, JH-7A, J-15, J-16, J-20 and so on.
> 
> Ok, like a defunct clock, that is also correct twice a day You were correct in one point - one that I never refuted since it was not on discussion! - but you are still wrong with so many other: no JH-7A, no J-16, no J-20, no 055, no Liaoning ... and also no AMRAAM on the JF-17 and no Italian engine!
> 
> But I'm sure all this is beyond my and surely webmaster's imagination since only You know.


why do you entertain him, block him, ever since i have it has been bliss.

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## S10

python-000 said:


> View attachment 673668
> 
> Seems like j-31B is in production line just look at this beast PAF...


It's not a production model, judging by the pitot tube in front of the radar dome.


----------



## python-000

Deino said:


> Why do you think this is the J-31B? In cat it is the well known old FC-31V2 we all know now as the second flying demonstrator numbered 31003 and that image was already posted at least since August 2017!
> 
> View attachment 673705
> 
> 
> View attachment 673706
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And why then are you making so many mistakes and still post BS claims (shall I remember to all the stupid claims you "fully agreed on the Block 3 JF-17 including AMRAAM integration and an Italian engine" ?) even if by your own perception you are the only one qualified to something about weapons and weapons systems?


New images...

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## Daniel808

*J-31/35 3rd Prototype





Ready for 2021? 😉*

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## Imran Khan

Daniel808 said:


> *J-31/35 3rd Prototype
> View attachment 701913
> 
> 
> Ready for 2021? 😉*


now its look perfect

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## MIRauf

Daniel808 said:


> *J-31/35 3rd Prototype
> View attachment 701913
> 
> 
> Ready for 2021? 😉*



That is one very nice looking bird.

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## LKJ86

MIRauf said:


> That is one very nice looking bird.


Just a technology demonstrator.


----------



## Imran Khan

LKJ86 said:


> Just a technology demonstrator.


and then where china will actually use this technology in j-21?????????


----------



## LKJ86

Imran Khan said:


> and then where china will actually use this technology in j-21?????????


Only PLAN can answer the question.

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## MIRauf

LKJ86 said:


> Just a technology demonstrator.


Still very nice looking, not talking about capabilities, I won't even touch that part till we get more info about it.


----------



## CIA Mole

man J35 seems like a breadnbutter 5th gen jet

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## Ali_Baba

Daniel808 said:


> *J-31/35 3rd Prototype
> View attachment 701913
> 
> 
> Ready for 2021? 😉*



Is that really the F-35? I see some lines on the wings, though it is difficult to see from the angle, if they will allow the wing to fold up, of carrier operations.


----------



## MastanKhan

Akh1112 said:


> why do you entertain him, block him, ever since i have it has been bliss.



Hi,

Why would he block me---? He is a spook---he is desperately trying to instigate posters to leak information on this forum---.

Everyone of his posts is trying to dig deeper into why the poster is stating what he is.

He needles---pins and prods---insults---degrades---humiliates just to get the the poster to spill out more than needed---.

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## crankthatskunk

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why would he block me---? He is a spy---he is desperately trying to instigate posters to leak information on this forum---.
> 
> Everyone of his posts is trying to dig deeper into why the poster is stating what he is.



Something on this forum doesn't make sense to me. 
Something strange.

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## Arsalan 345

I don't understand this awkward discussion. I think we are all mature. let's respect each others opinion. just RELAX!


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Only PLAN can answer the question.



Any hint when we might see the J-35 prototype in 2021?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Nasr said:


> The guy sits in America, lectures Pakistanis about our country and always is condescending toward others. He seems to think that the father of nation, Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a whiskey drinking, pork eating, secularist who fought to gain a independent state for the Muslims of South Asia. Ever since, I have stopped taking this guy seriously. He can babble all he wants, goes in one ear and out the other.


happy new year

cool it bro


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why would he block me---? He is a spook---he is desperately trying to instigate posters to leak information on this forum---.
> 
> Everyone of his posts is trying to dig deeper into why the poster is stating what he is.
> 
> He needles---pins and prods---insults---degrades---humiliates just to get the the poster to spill out more than needed---.


if the pictures are to be believed then the craft looks much more streamlined and sleek. indeed its what its made of is important.

like you been saying. China will surprise us all specially the suspicious ones

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> happy new year
> 
> cool it bro
> 
> if the pictures are to be believed then the craft looks much more streamlined and sleek. indeed its what its made of is important.
> 
> like you been saying. China will surprise us all specially the suspicious ones



Hi,

Actually it is the Paf that has been pushing them beyond the limits---. Foreigners have no clue about the exposure of the Paf engineers and pilots---and as I stated---engineering is a frame of mind---.

Right now the " show me the link mafia " is in control---so many a posts get badgered---.

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## Daniel808

Ali_Baba said:


> Is that really the F-35? I see some lines on the wings, though it is difficult to see from the angle, if they will allow the wing to fold up, of carrier operations.



This is J-31. J-35 will be based on this.
Hopefully we can see J-35 maiden flight in this year (2021)


----------



## Nasr

Irfan Baloch said:


> happy new year



Happy New Year to you too brother


----------



## MastanKhan

MIRauf said:


> Still very nice looking, not talking about capabilities, I won't even touch that part till we get more info about it.




Hi,

An old american saying---if it looks nice---it flies nice---.

Jab Hussan hota hai---tau nazakat aa hi jati hai---hehehehhe.

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## LKJ86

Daniel808 said:


> This is J-31. J-35 will be based on this.
> Hopefully we can see J-35 maiden flight in this year (2021)


There is no so-called "J-31".

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## Daniel808

LKJ86 said:


> There is no so-called "J-31".



FC-31 and J-35


----------



## The Eagle

python-000 said:


> View attachment 707355



Why I feel like that is CGI for J-35? If is it so, please avoid posting non credible images or there should be some detail for posting such CGI at-least.

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## Incog_nito

Will PAC be able to license produced it in Pakistan?


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## Deino

Incog_nito said:


> Will PAC be able to license produced it in Pakistan?




If the Chinese would agree, why not ... but that most of all depends on 💰

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## Incog_nito

Is there any dual seat J-31 in development?


Daniel808 said:


> *J-31/35 3rd Prototype
> View attachment 701913
> 
> 
> Ready for 2021? 😉*



This seems that the progress is on going and PAF can induct these in 2025?


----------



## IblinI

Incog_nito said:


> Is there any dual seat J-31 in development?
> 
> 
> This seems that the progress is on going and PAF can induct these in 2025?


J20 has a dual seat version, that is for sure.

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## Incog_nito

IblinI said:


> J20 has a dual seat version, that is for sure.


Any Images?


----------



## IblinI

Incog_nito said:


> Any Images?


not yet but it has appeared in several different promotion video from CAC and confirmed by insiders aswell.

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## Incog_nito

IblinI said:


> not yet but it has appeared in several different promotion video from CAC and confirmed by insiders aswell.



When is the J-31 coming to PAF? Or will it going to be produced at PAC?


----------



## Deino

Incog_nito said:


> When is the J-31 coming to PAF? Or will it going to be produced at PAC?




Again read the previous posts: So far NOTHING is decided and production in Pakistan only if the Chinese would agree, why not ... but that most of all depends on 💰

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## MIRauf

Incog_nito said:


> When is the J-31 coming to PAF? Or will it going to be produced at PAC?



J-31 is Tech demonstrator, it has been discussed on this forum and others. ADHD issue ?


----------



## ziaulislam

Daniel808 said:


> *J-31/35 3rd Prototype
> View attachment 701913
> 
> 
> Ready for 2021? 😉*


Though looks an excellent plateform for novice like me especially if it gets the rd93ma(commonality of engine with jf17b3) 
With better weapons for internal bay, i.e modified BVRs with folded wings & small diameter bomb ...36-72 bought in small batches ..this will ensure PAF superiority beyond 2030 possibly till 2035

But PAF doesnt like it..may be they have their reasons
Two rd93 ma will provide 50% more thrust then rafale and more thrust then f35

PAF may even leverage liscene production of rd93ma

Azm if truely an indigenous project wont be in serial production till 2035-2040

So a true fighter for in between period..rather then for paying 3-5b for j10/f16(new ones)

The buying can be batch wise over 10 years dont need to be immediate


----------



## GriffinsRule

Pakistan will never get license production of RD-93. And even if it does in the unlikely case, the engine costs will go up significantly. Better to have an overhaul and repair facility instead. 
Also, I don't think RD-93 is a good choice for an engine for a NGF. The only reason we have it for JF-17 is as it was the only choice for a low cost fighter. AZM's 5th gen fighter cant be one where we are pinching pennies or cutting corners (in the long run RD-93 might cost more than a western engine anyways). That is why I think we should really try for an option from Europe and EJ200 is a terrific engine if we can get it. I don't think the Chinese engines have the maturity either to have them be the powerplant for our top end fighter jet yet.

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## CIA Mole

I really like the K-FX design






Looks much simpler/cheaper than internal bay 5th gen.


----------



## applesauce

CIA Mole said:


> I really like the K-FX design
> View attachment 708515
> 
> 
> Looks much simpler/cheaper than internal bay 5th gen.



simpler and cheaper for sure, but also much worse in terms of radar reflection


----------



## Incog_nito

MIRauf said:


> J-31 is Tech demonstrator, it has been discussed on this forum and others. ADHD issue ?


DO you mean by the name?


----------



## MIRauf

Incog_nito said:


> DO you mean by the name?


Name and or Type, the current platform is a Tech demonstrator, still one beautiful / sleek looking bird. Will something concrete comes out of it ? only time will tell. Will J-35 be based off the J-31 platform ? so far just speculations that it will be.

"PS: Sorry, I didn't mean to write thesis on this, just couldn't pen it all down in Cliff Notes."

-- .. .-.


----------



## Incog_nito

So, PAF might be getting FC-35 in the coming years.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan will never get license production of RD-93. And even if it does in the unlikely case, the engine costs will go up significantly. Better to have an overhaul and repair facility instead.
> Also, I don't think RD-93 is a good choice for an engine for a NGF. The only reason we have it for JF-17 is as it was the only choice for a low cost fighter. AZM's 5th gen fighter cant be one where we are pinching pennies or cutting corners (in the long run RD-93 might cost more than a western engine anyways). That is why I think we should really try for an option from Europe and EJ200 is a terrific engine if we can get it. I don't think the Chinese engines have the maturity either to have them be the powerplant for our top end fighter jet yet.


Another idea, albeit controversial and probably unrealistic, is to work with Ukraine in developing an RD-93MA-class engine.

Ukraine has an engine industry, albeit focused on 42kN class afterburning engines and high bypass turbines. But, they know a lot about the fundamentals, and have worked on the Klimov engines as long as anyone in terms of maintenance, repair and overhaul.

In theory, we can look at commissioning them to develop a decent 97 kN engine. However, they'll probably want to keep critical tech to themselves (it's an issue of survival for them), but sharing co-production with them is better than purely importing.


----------



## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...is to work with Ukraine in developing an RD-93MA-class engine.


The Commander of the Ukrainian Air Force was in Pakistan last year.

I do wonder what these meetings are all about. I mean they speak of 'mutual interests' and throw words like 'strategic' every now and again, but I have yet to see or even hear about Companies like Antanov.

PAF should be working closely with Leonardo, Antanov and Embrear.

It feels like PAF has put all its eggs in one basket & labelled it 'AZM'.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Another idea, albeit controversial and probably unrealistic, is to work with Ukraine in developing an RD-93MA-class engine.
> 
> Ukraine has an engine industry, albeit focused on 42kN class afterburning engines and high bypass turbines. But, they know a lot about the fundamentals, and have worked on the Klimov engines as long as anyone in terms of maintenance, repair and overhaul.
> 
> In theory, we can look at commissioning them to develop a decent 97 kN engine. However, they'll probably want to keep critical tech to themselves (it's an issue of survival for them), but sharing co-production with them is better than purely importing.



I was meaning to reply back but I think this requires some thought or discussion. The latest news from Aero India that for me is the most worrisome is that they have now abandoned the Kaveri and are going to have Rolls Royce basically design and develop an engine for them to be used in the AMCA as well as LCA Mk 2. Not only that, RR will also give them technology to produce the engine at home. A similar bid for collaboration from France was apparently rejected due to cost. The video also made a point that GE414 will not be the powerplant for LCA Mk 2. (Cant seem to find which thread had that video now to link here).

That to me indicates two things ... first they are perhaps rightfully so divesting from the GE engine due to potential sanctions from the US due to their S400 purchase. And second, UK is more than willing to transfer the technology and develop a new engine for them. I can't imagine it being that different from what the Turks-UK cooperation would have entailed but clearly UK is a source of technology which the US specifically does not want to share with any potential competitors.

This engine will allow them immense technological leap as well as security and cost savings in the future and will become the backbone of their fleet and combat UAVs/loyal wingman. Things will be clearer by the end of the year but it does not bode well for us if we are planning on sticking with the RD-93. And unfortunately Ukraine is not going to be the source for an engine we need for the next say 50 years. India has the advantage of two decades of dabbling with the tech, and while Kaveri is a failure, setbacks teach you more than success. I still think we need to figure out a way to collaborate with the Brits on our future jet engines too. 

Working with the Brits, and for argument sake joining in the efforts with the Turks could be the best way forward. Pakistan does not have the political clout, money or the local demand by itself. However, if we take TuAF and PAF together, then there is a huge fleet of aircraft that the Brits would be supplying to and keeping their own industry alive and profitable. I think it will be a win-win for all parties involved. Clearly, the IAF down the line has a requirement for a 300-400 hundred fighters at least that the new engine will power. PAF (Mirages + F-16s) and TuAF (F-16s +F-4s) combined have a similar, if not larger air component that needs to be replaced in the future. 

Thoughts? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @SQ8 @Hodor @HRK @The Raven @Bilal Khan 777

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> I was meaning to reply back but I think this requires some thought or discussion. The latest news from Aero India that for me is the most worrisome is that they have now abandoned the Kaveri and are going to have Rolls Royce basically design and develop an engine for them to be used in the AMCA as well as LCA Mk 2. Not only that, RR will also give them technology to produce the engine at home. A similar bid for collaboration from France was apparently rejected due to cost. The video also made a point that GE414 will not be the powerplant for LCA Mk 2. (Cant seem to find which thread had that video now to link here).
> 
> That to me indicates two things ... first they are perhaps rightfully so divesting from the GE engine due to potential sanctions from the US due to their S400 purchase. And second, UK is more than willing to transfer the technology and develop a new engine for them. I can't imagine it being that different from what the Turks-UK cooperation would have entailed but clearly UK is a source of technology which the US specifically does not want to share with any potential competitors.
> 
> This engine will allow them immense technological leap as well as security and cost savings in the future and will become the backbone of their fleet and combat UAVs/loyal wingman. Things will be clearer by the end of the year but it does not bode well for us if we are planning on sticking with the RD-93. And unfortunately Ukraine is not going to be the source for an engine we need for the next say 50 years. India has the advantage of two decades of dabbling with the tech, and while Kaveri is a failure, setbacks teach you more than success. I still think we need to figure out a way to collaborate with the Brits on our future jet engines too.
> 
> Working with the Brits, and for argument sake joining in the efforts with the Turks could be the best way forward. Pakistan does not have the political clout, money or the local demand by itself. However, if we take TuAF and PAF together, then there is a huge fleet of aircraft that the Brits would be supplying to and keeping their own industry alive and profitable. I think it will be a win-win for all parties involved. Clearly, the IAF down the line has a requirement for a 300-400 hundred fighters at least that the new engine will power. PAF (Mirages + F-16s) and TuAF (F-16s +F-4s) combined have a similar, if not larger air component that needs to be replaced in the future.
> 
> Thoughts? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @SQ8 @Hodor @HRK @The Raven @Bilal Khan 777


There's a fundamental issue here.

The Indians will say and 'plan' for a lot of things, and they'll attempt to take a crack at it. In a lot of cases, they'll fail, but at that failing point, they get a 'graceful exit' (e.g., UK's RR offering engine tech). 

Our problem is that when we say, "let's make an engine," we get, "totally impossible, we can't do it, we must not do it, we'll be in Tejas-mode like India, blah, blah, blah, blah." 

The net impact is that we develop zero expertise in the technology, and we have nothing to show or leverage with experienced parties. India has Kaveri, for example. Heck, Turkey has the TR Motor engine.

What do we have, besides Negative Naeems I mean? @JamD

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## Indos

GriffinsRule said:


> I was meaning to reply back but I think this requires some thought or discussion. The latest news from Aero India that for me is the most worrisome is that they have now abandoned the Kaveri and are going to have Rolls Royce basically design and develop an engine for them to be used in the AMCA as well as LCA Mk 2. Not only that, RR will also give them technology to produce the engine at home. A similar bid for collaboration from France was apparently rejected due to cost. The video also made a point that GE414 will not be the powerplant for LCA Mk 2. (Cant seem to find which thread had that video now to link here).
> 
> That to me indicates two things ... first they are perhaps rightfully so divesting from the GE engine due to potential sanctions from the US due to their S400 purchase. And second, UK is more than willing to transfer the technology and develop a new engine for them. I can't imagine it being that different from what the Turks-UK cooperation would have entailed but clearly UK is a source of technology which the US specifically does not want to share with any potential competitors.
> 
> This engine will allow them immense technological leap as well as security and cost savings in the future and will become the backbone of their fleet and combat UAVs/loyal wingman. Things will be clearer by the end of the year but it does not bode well for us if we are planning on sticking with the RD-93. And unfortunately Ukraine is not going to be the source for an engine we need for the next say 50 years. India has the advantage of two decades of dabbling with the tech, and while Kaveri is a failure, setbacks teach you more than success. I still think we need to figure out a way to collaborate with the Brits on our future jet engines too.
> 
> Working with the Brits, and for argument sake joining in the efforts with the Turks could be the best way forward. Pakistan does not have the political clout, money or the local demand by itself. However, if we take TuAF and PAF together, then there is a huge fleet of aircraft that the Brits would be supplying to and keeping their own industry alive and profitable. I think it will be a win-win for all parties involved. Clearly, the IAF down the line has a requirement for a 300-400 hundred fighters at least that the new engine will power. PAF (Mirages + F-16s) and TuAF (F-16s +F-4s) combined have a similar, if not larger air component that needs to be replaced in the future.
> 
> Thoughts? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @SQ8 @Hodor @HRK @The Raven @Bilal Khan 777



Nope, they will use F414 for both Tejas MK2 and AMCA. The plan to collaborate with RR to develop engine is their wishlist only.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's a fundamental issue here.
> 
> The Indians will say and 'plan' for a lot of things, and they'll attempt to take a crack at it. In a lot of cases, they'll fail, but at that failing point, they get a 'graceful exit' (e.g., UK's RR offering engine tech).
> 
> Our problem is that when we say, "let's make an engine," we get, "totally impossible, we can't do it, we must not do it, we'll be in Tejas-mode like India, blah, blah, blah, blah."
> 
> The net impact is that we develop zero expertise in the technology, and we have nothing to show or leverage with experienced parties. India has Kaveri, for example. Heck, Turkey has the TR Motor engine.
> 
> What do we have, besides Negative Naeems I mean? @JamD


I totally agree. Even with their failed attempts at SAMs and A-A missiles for example, they have eventually learned from their failures and are on the verge of producing a lot more capable missiles and more importantly, self-sustainment in the long run. However, they have had a lot of help recently from Israeli military complex, which has to be with a tactic nod from the US. But failure is nothing to be ashamed of and while it is fun to make fun of their programs, they have been attempting to indigenize in as many domains as possible. 

Pakistan has had limited successes in our own weapons but we either failed to get projects started/funded or gave up whenever it was possible to buy from US or China. Its an effective short-term strategy for small countries, but Pakistan is not a small country and it can not afford to think in short-term goals.

If Brazil and South Africa could collaborate to make A-A missiles decades ago, I don't see why we can not do so now. We have been operating and manufacturing tactical drones for years now, so buying CH-4 or CH-5 does not make any sense to me. These solutions should have come from Pakistan as a natural progression of things even if we had to get the Chinese to supply us with the innards such as cameras/comms etc. We should not be buying complete systems from anyone where ever possible as a path forward. 

These advances can really only come at a faster clip from private/public industry collaboration, which is what India realized and it is starting to bear them fruit now. We should try to replicate where they had success and where we can leverage Chinese help in advanced weapon development. 

I don't think its late for Pakistan to start on new smarter/smaller weapons as technology is always in a flux and there are always advances happening. That means you can jump in during anytime and play catchup with the help of others. 

Basically we should focus on weapons that will help us against Indian military in a future war. It might mean developing weapons that cater to those specific requirements, and might not be available in the market place even. For eg new loitering munitions that can be carried in larger quantities will definitely be the future in A-G roles, specially in a target rich environment of the subcontinent and will help negate the disadvantage of a smaller fighter like the JF-17. Same applies for decoys that can loiter and confuse the enemy air defenses etc.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> I totally agree. Even with their failed attempts at SAMs and A-A missiles for example, they have eventually learned from their failures and are on the verge of producing a lot more capable missiles and more importantly, self-sustainment in the long run. However, they have had a lot of help recently from Israeli military complex, which has to be with a tactic nod from the US. But failure is nothing to be ashamed of and while it is fun to make fun of their programs, they have been attempting to indigenize in as many domains as possible.
> 
> Pakistan has had limited successes in our own weapons but we either failed to get projects started/funded or gave up whenever it was possible to buy from US or China. Its an effective short-term strategy for small countries, but Pakistan is not a small country and it can not afford to think in short-term goals.
> 
> If Brazil and South Africa could collaborate to make A-A missiles decades ago, I don't see why we can not do so now. We have been operating and manufacturing tactical drones for years now, so buying CH-4 or CH-5 does not make any sense to me. These solutions should have come from Pakistan as a natural progression of things even if we had to get the Chinese to supply us with the innards such as cameras/comms etc. We should not be buying complete systems from anyone where ever possible as a path forward.
> 
> These advances can really only come at a faster clip from private/public industry collaboration, which is what India realized and it is starting to bear them fruit now. We should try to replicate where they had success and where we can leverage Chinese help in advanced weapon development.
> 
> I don't think its late for Pakistan to start on new smarter/smaller weapons as technology is always in a flux and there are always advances happening. That means you can jump in during anytime and play catchup with the help of others.
> 
> Basically we should focus on weapons that will help us against Indian military in a future war. It might mean developing weapons that cater to those specific requirements, and might not be available in the market place even. For eg new loitering munitions that can be carried in larger quantities will definitely be the future in A-G roles, specially in a target rich environment of the subcontinent and will help negate the disadvantage of a smaller fighter like the JF-17. Same applies for decoys that can loiter and confuse the enemy air defenses etc.


I agree.

If we go around announcing programs like India, some might accuse of vaporware, but vapor is matter too. I mean, we can undertake R&D in these areas and develop varying levels of research, IP, and even demonstrators. If anything, you can at least bring some value to the table with potential partners. 

Obviously, if we restrict the domestic market to source domestically (including high-tech domains), then there's incentive for the private industry to invest and support the R&D base.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's a fundamental issue here.
> 
> The Indians will say and 'plan' for a lot of things, and they'll attempt to take a crack at it. In a lot of cases, they'll fail, but at that failing point, they get a 'graceful exit' (e.g., UK's RR offering engine tech).
> 
> Our problem is that when we say, "let's make an engine," we get, "totally impossible, we can't do it, we must not do it, we'll be in Tejas-mode like India, blah, blah, blah, blah."
> 
> The net impact is that we develop zero expertise in the technology, and we have nothing to show or leverage with experienced parties. India has Kaveri, for example. Heck, Turkey has the TR Motor engine.
> 
> What do we have, besides Negative Naeems I mean? @JamD




Hi,

The indians have lived under slavery for close to a 1000 years---while we have had ample experience in manufacturing weapons during those times---.

It is just a matter of time when the indians will break that unseen threshold---.

So---let's not get cocky over issues.

People don't understand the monstrosity that is living behind science---. The enemy is always a breakthrough away from becoming invincible---.


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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> The latest news from Aero India that for me is the most worrisome is that they have now abandoned the Kaveri and are going to have Rolls Royce basically design and develop an engine for them to be used in the AMCA as well as LCA Mk 2. Not only that, RR will also give them technology to produce the engine at home. A similar bid for collaboration from France was apparently rejected due to cost. The video also made a point that GE414 will not be the powerplant for LCA Mk 2. (Cant seem to find which thread had that video now to link here).


there no official announcement fro RR, so wait for it; but for general discussion yes engine development is the most important venture of aerospace Industry of any country could take.

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> there no official announcement fro RR, so wait for it; but for general discussion yes engine development is the most important venture of aerospace Industry of any country could take.



This is from last summer and it spells it out more or less. Its going to be an advanced engine which will propel Indian aviation industry ahead by a few decades. Its an Indian source thats quotes RR spokes person but if the Indian government has given it the green light, it will be in the news sooner or later.





__





Detail Report: DRDO-Rolls Royce Jv for 110 kN Jet engine soon: Rolls Royce India – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org





This venture has clearly been thought about and pursued to some extent for a few years at least. Perhaps even since the Jag upgrade was envisioned and the latest joint venture is an offshoot of that Darin upgrade program.










Co-creating the future of combat


Co-creating the future of combat




www.rolls-royce.com





"The government can invest in programmes where companies can participate and work together to co-create products and solutions. For example, in defence, when there is co-creation of an aircraft technology, then it could be a joint IP between governments. Whether it is then manufactured here in India or elsewhere, India could be a co-owner of that IP and that is what makes this a powerful proposition for the future of combat."

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's a fundamental issue here.
> 
> The Indians will say and 'plan' for a lot of things, and they'll attempt to take a crack at it. In a lot of cases, they'll fail, but at that failing point, they get a 'graceful exit' (e.g., UK's RR offering engine tech).
> 
> Our problem is that when we say, "let's make an engine," we get, "totally impossible, we can't do it, we must not do it, we'll be in Tejas-mode like India, blah, blah, blah, blah."
> 
> The net impact is that we develop zero expertise in the technology, and we have nothing to show or leverage with experienced parties. India has Kaveri, for example. Heck, Turkey has the TR Motor engine.
> 
> What do we have, besides Negative Naeems I mean? @JamD


The problem is perrineal and long standing. No one is willing to spend money to acquire a special steel plant which would be the basis of creating the alloys needed to create engines. Then we start small and manufacturing motor bike and car-engines to Turbines. That will open doors for other technologies which will result in the AC engine that we want. The real question has always been whether the means justify the end, ie the specialized alloys plant and research into metallurgy equates to engine production. I dont know if anyone has done the maths but-would love to know the logic behind and the sheer investment required to produce the end result. Even if we could do sim0le turbines for power generation it would have been helpful but compared to India we are starting 20 years behind. Then what is the need and what is the-demand.
Lastly Turkey and collaboration with is a very plausible solution as we are more or less at a stage to be able to share technological-advances but for us-the finances remain a problem.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> The problem is perrineal and long standing. No one is willing to spend money to acquire a special steel plant which would be the basis of creating the alloys needed to create engines. Then we start small and manufacturing motor bike and car-engines to Turbines. That will open doors for other technologies which will result in the AC engine that we want. The real question has always been whether the means justify the end, ie the specialized alloys plant and research into metallurgy equates to engine production. I dont know if anyone has done the maths but-would love to know the logic behind and the sheer investment required to produce the end result. Even if we could do sim0le turbines for power generation it would have been helpful but compared to India we are starting 20 years behind. Then what is the need and what is the-demand.
> Lastly Turkey and collaboration with is a very plausible solution as we are more or less at a stage to be able to share technological-advances but for us-the finances remain a problem.
> A


I can offer another angle to "why"

Probably, the Pakistani youth are increasingly concerned about Pakistan's ties with China (re: Uyghurs). You notice that our own leadership is silent about the matter -- i.e., they can't even support the Chinese, nor can they deny them in public (for obvious reasons).

However, if the post-9/11 situation has shown us, if we do not "straighten the line," we risk confusing massive swaths of our population and, in turn, leave them open to TTP/AQ-like influences (because they fill the void).

OTOH, a Pakistan that can stand on its own two feet in terms of economy and military technology can say and (up to an extent) do whatever it wants.

The argument I'm making is ... our internal stability and internal cohesion may, at some level, be contingent on the strength of our economy and domestic industry.

Turkey understood this for its own people (who are super proud and split between Europe and Islam, basically), so it said, "we'll carve our own unique path and be our own power so that we can say and do what our people want us to do."

Pakistan will need to do something similar, and I think we'll need to double down on AZM et. al.

Obviously, we can't do jack if we don't implement a real economic development policy, but that's actually quite easy if you put the right people in charge (which is actually the hard part for us).

@SQ8 Thoughts?

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I can offer another angle to "why"
> 
> Probably, the Pakistani youth are increasingly concerned about Pakistan's ties with China (re: Uyghurs). You notice that our own leadership is silent about the matter -- i.e., they can't even support the Chinese, nor can they deny them in public (for obvious reasons).
> 
> However, if the post-9/11 situation has shown us, if we do not "straighten the line," we risk confusing massive swaths of our population and, in turn, leave them open to TTP/AQ-like influences (because they fill the void).
> 
> OTOH, a Pakistan that can stand on its own two feet in terms of economy and military technology can say and (up to an extent) do whatever it wants.
> 
> The argument I'm making is ... our internal stability and internal cohesion may, at some level, be contingent on the strength of our economy and domestic industry.
> 
> Turkey understood this for its own people (who are super proud and split between Europe and Islam, basically), so it said, "we'll carve our own unique path and be our own power so that we can say and do what our people want us to do."
> 
> Pakistan will need to do something similar, and I think we'll need to double down on AZM et. al.
> 
> Obviously, we can't do jack if we don't implement a real economic development policy, but that's actually quite easy if you put the right people in charge (which is actually the hard part for us).
> 
> @SQ8 Thoughts?


Agreed - unfortunately this difference of opinion emerges as education and exposure increases until the inflection point or where one ideaology overpowers the other. Only then can progress really start - in Pakistan’s case neither has been reached nor will be in the near future. So growth is to be constrained by the divided purposes of the educated middle class. Both the poor and elite are technically useless in technology growth since either their interests are wholly self serving or they have zero contribution.

On a side note - the US Project Longshot , what a great idea if Pakistan had something like a ground launched version to work incoordination with aerial assets.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Agreed - unfortunately this difference of opinion emerges as education and exposure increases until the inflection point or where one ideaology overpowers the other. Only then can progress really start - in Pakistan’s case neither has been reached nor will be in the near future. So growth is to be constrained by the divided purposes of the educated middle class. Both the poor and elite are technically useless in technology growth since either their interests are wholly self serving or they have zero contribution.
> 
> On a side note - the US Project Longshot , what a great idea if Pakistan had something like a ground launched version to work incoordination with aerial assets.


It also reminds me of Anatol Lieven's book, "Pakistan: A Hard Country."

Generally, a population's buy-in with their country comes from the economy. No one would want instability because it could threaten their jobs and livelihood. Moreover, to do well in the system, families emphasize the pursuit of education (e.g., even Trump supporters have college degrees), good citizen conduct, etc.

But in Pakistan, that "buy-in" comes from top-down money transfers, which we know come from state coffers, public enterprises, aid, and loans. You "get in" on these transfers by joining a political party (or entering an institution like the civil bureaucracy or armed forces). Or you rely on remittances.

IMO, the "buy in dynamics" of Pakistan is the reason why our governance structure works the way it does, and why "real change" isn't on the horizon. The current system just works for those who matter (and I'm not saying everyone's corrupt: if your tummy's full, why change things?).

Basically, "real change" in our situation is a "new deal" where a revamped development policy focuses on replacing "money transfers" with "living off the economy." For the latter to work, you have to create lots of jobs, generate exports, and invest in social safety nets (public health and education).

I think with CPEC, the Chinese figured they could deliver the raw capacity to support economic growth, but it didn't accurately cope with Pakistan's dynamics. OTOH, the US just didn't care, so the aid went in, and jack-all after that.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It also reminds me of Anatol Lieven's book, "Pakistan: A Hard Country."
> 
> Generally, a population's buy-in with their country comes from the economy. No one would want instability because it could threaten their jobs and livelihood. Moreover, to do well in the system, families emphasize the pursuit of education (e.g., even Trump supporters have college degrees), good citizen conduct, etc.
> 
> But in Pakistan, that "buy-in" comes from top-down money transfers, which we know come from state coffers, public enterprises, aid, and loans. You "get in" on these transfers by joining a political party (or entering an institution like the civil bureaucracy or armed forces). Or you rely on remittances.
> 
> IMO, the "buy in dynamics" of Pakistan is the reason why our governance structure works the way it does, and why "real change" isn't on the horizon. The current system just works for those who matter (and I'm not saying everyone's corrupt: if your tummy's full, why change things?).
> 
> Basically, "real change" in our situation is a "new deal" where a revamped development policy focuses on replacing "money transfers" with "living off the economy." For the latter to work, you have to create lots of jobs, generate exports, and invest in social safety nets (public health and education).
> 
> I think with CPEC, the Chinese figured they could deliver the raw capacity to support economic growth, but it didn't accurately cope with Pakistan's dynamics. OTOH, the US just didn't care, so the aid went in, and jack-all after that.


Pakistanis have become accustomed to free money, whether it is from remits abroad by a few hardworking folk (as a % of population) or by the public sector where people get their salaries for years on end without every working. Even when those enterprises have been shut down like the steel mill.
3rd world countries have this symptom where aid money actually takes away their will to reform or uplift themselves. There are many studies that show this to be true in African countries and it is true in Pakistan's case as well. 
But this wholescale change is much harder to achieve then a focused approach for a smaller, more tangible goal such as AZM.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistanis have become accustomed to free money, whether it is from remits abroad by a few hardworking folk (as a % of population) or by the public sector where people get their salaries for years on end without every working. Even when those enterprises have been shut down like the steel mill.
> 3rd world countries have this symptom where aid money actually takes away their will to reform or uplift themselves. There are many studies that show this to be true in African countries and it is true in Pakistan's case as well.
> But this wholescale change is much harder to achieve then a focused approach for a smaller, more tangible goal such as AZM.


But AZM (and our defence industry as a whole) can be a starting point. Let's say we develop a cluster: PAC manages final assembly and testing, but the private sector supplies the sub-assemblies, electronics, and critical inputs. 

Even if the set-up employs 100,000 individuals industry-wide, that's a direct economic uplift to 500,000 Pakistanis (via families), and indirect uplift to 2-3 million others (via consumption of the AZM employees). 

If we scale this across our defence needs and employ 500,000 Pakistanis via the public and private sectors, we can indirectly support 10-15 million Pakistanis. If we can link 20 million to a real economic system, I think we'll see real change.

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## mdmm

This is not any fake news. But following vLog is telling that Pakistan and Iran has contacted China and shown interest in buying Chinese J-31/ FC-31 . Kindly provide some proof here. Donot reply without solid evidence here.

*After jf 17 !! Pakistan to buy China's new stealth fighter Aircraft-•Jun 1, 2021*
MILITARY NEWS UPDATE (76.5K subscribers)




The Pakistani Air Force is reportedly considering buying between 30 and 40 of the Chinese stealth combat aircraft to replace the F-16 fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US. The FC-31 is designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions.

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## Trango Towers

mdmm said:


> This is not any fake news. But following vLog is telling that Pakistan and Iran has contacted China and shown interest in buying Chinese J-31/ FC-31 . Kindly provide some proof here. Donot reply without solid evidence here.
> 
> *After jf 17 !! Pakistan to buy China's new stealth fighter Aircraft-•Jun 1, 2021*
> MILITARY NEWS UPDATE (76.5K subscribers)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force is reportedly considering buying between 30 and 40 of the Chinese stealth combat aircraft to replace the F-16 fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US. The FC-31 is designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions.


Close Air support....I think not
Pakistan could collapse
Over 200 nukes.


Is this an Indian video with a voice over?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Probably a mock-up display of Shenyang FC-31 Gyrfalcon .

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## Nomad40

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Probably a mock-up display of Shenyang FC-31 Gyrfalcon .
> View attachment 755172
> 
> View attachment 755173


This is a 100% mockup!

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## Abid123

mdmm said:


> This is not any fake news. But following vLog is telling that Pakistan and Iran has contacted China and shown interest in buying Chinese J-31/ FC-31 . Kindly provide some proof here. Donot reply without solid evidence here.
> 
> *After jf 17 !! Pakistan to buy China's new stealth fighter Aircraft-•Jun 1, 2021*
> MILITARY NEWS UPDATE (76.5K subscribers)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force is reportedly considering buying between 30 and 40 of the Chinese stealth combat aircraft to replace the F-16 fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin Corporation of the US. The FC-31 is designed to fly close air support, air interdiction and other missions.


40 is way to low in my opinion. We should go for 100 J-35/J-31.

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## SQ8

Abid123 said:


> 40 is way to low in my opinion. We should go for 100 J-35/J-31.


Agreed - have you and your friends gathered $12-15 billion needed for it? A charity donation drive might help since the national tax and revenue net cannot afford it or an additional loan.

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## maverick1977

Pakistan need 4 squadrons minimum


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Checkmate vs FC-31 vs F-35 vs KFX

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## Scorpiooo

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Checkmate vs FC-31 vs F-35 vs KFX
> View attachment 762838


Checkmate = j35 ?


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## KaiserX

I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.

No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.

It may be more likely that the PAF may be purchasing a dozen J-31/J35 rather than J20 but my source stood by his word. So far his own sources have been on point.

There would be value in the PAF purchasing a few dozen J-31/J-35 before maybe eventually starting its own production, but the J20 would be of immense value for the PAF and they might have concluded that a few dozen (24) might be reasonable to purchase (in batches of 12)?

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## The Eagle

Scorpiooo said:


> Checkmate = j35 ?



Russia will unveil it during MAKS21 airshow. Not J-35 but new Russian single engine fighter with 5th gen characteristics.


KaiserX said:


> I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.
> 
> No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.
> 
> It may be more likely that the PAF may be purchasing a dozen J-31/J35 rather than J20 but my source stood by his word. So far his own sources have been on point.
> 
> There would be value in the PAF purchasing a few dozen J-31/J-35 before maybe eventually starting its own production, but the J20 would be of immense value for the PAF and they might have concluded that a few dozen (24) might be reasonable to purchase (in batches of 12)?



It's too much of such claims. Almost everyone claimed so there's no royalty of claims in internet world. Secondly, there's a source that claimed that 2 different types have already landed too. Having said that, time for us to share opinion instead of convincing people to believe me.

The source of the Source, is well known to me. My suggestion is that, don't believe into everything.

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## phrozenflame

SQ8 said:


> Agreed - have you and your friends gathered $12-15 billion needed for it? A charity donation drive might help since the national tax and revenue net cannot afford it or an additional loan.


Charity donation drive for 5th gen aircraft? lol

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## MastanKhan

KaiserX said:


> I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.
> 
> No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.
> 
> It may be more likely that the PAF may be purchasing a dozen J-31/J35 rather than J20 but my source stood by his word. So far his own sources have been on point.
> 
> There would be value in the PAF purchasing a few dozen J-31/J-35 before maybe eventually starting its own production, but the J20 would be of immense value for the PAF and they might have concluded that a few dozen (24) might be reasonable to purchase (in batches of 12)?



Hi,

Thank you very much for your post. 

J-20 is a reality for Pakistan---. I had stated in years ago that if need be---the J-20 would be available to the Paf---. There were some silly comments to that---but the reality is that a lot has been on offer to pakistan.

Why the Paf has not taken the offer of other chinse aircraft in the past decade---sometimes it was a matter of ego---other times they got sabotaged by the F-16 mafia.

As of the J-20---china would rather have Paf use it against the enemy rater than china.

If it is successful---china can claim the victory and j=kudos to the Paf pilots---but if the Paf failed---china can then blame the Paf for being upto the mark on the 5th gen aircraft---.

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## StructE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you very much for your post.
> 
> J-20 is a reality for Pakistan---. I had stated in years ago that if need be---the J-20 would be available to the Paf---. There were some silly comments to that---but the reality is that a lot has been on offer to pakistan.
> 
> Why the Paf has not taken the offer of other chinse aircraft in the past decade---sometimes it was a matter of ego---other times they got sabotaged by the F-16 mafia.
> 
> As of the J-20---china would rather have Paf use it against the enemy rater than china.
> 
> If it is successful---china can claim the victory and j=kudos to the Paf pilots---but if the Paf failed---china can then blame the Paf for being upto the mark on the 5th gen aircraft---.


At the moment PAF has no need of J-20, most of PAF agenda is India Centric. It is not like PAF is looking to engage USAF. Stealth fighters are notorious to maintain, if you have a squadron, expect to have maximum 4 fighters ready to scramble at any given time. Probably not worth the hassle. 

Downside of getting J-20 will be that it will push India in a frenzy of buying and upgrading. In that process they might end up fixing their training issues as well.

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## MastanKhan

StructE said:


> At the moment PAF has no need of J-20, most of PAF agenda is India Centric. It is not like PAF is looking to engage USAF. Stealth fighters are notorious to maintain, if you have a squadron, expect to have maximum 4 fighters ready to scramble at any given time. Probably not worth the hassle.
> 
> Downside of getting J-20 will be that it will push India in a frenzy of buying and upgrading. In that process they might end up fixing their training issues as well.



Hi,

You are correct---. Paf has been caught in a scary position of incompetence---damned if they go for it and damned if they don't---.

The cutesies of Paf will play havoc with the the future defences of pakistan---.

At the most critical juncture of pakistan's integrity---the Paf has left pakistan extremely vulnerable.


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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct---. *Paf has been caught in a scary position of incompetence---damned if they go for it and damned if they don't---.*
> 
> The cutesies of Paf will play havoc with the the future defences of pakistan---.
> 
> At the most critical juncture of pakistan's integrity---the Paf has left pakistan extremely vulnerable.



It’s stupid to first of all think along the Indian Centric line and wait for your enemy to purchase and then purchase to counter it while you should purchase first and establish superiority. The minimum deterrence and training is showing it’s fruits at the wrong time in all branches of armed forces.

For Pakistan our eastern neighbor India isn’t a strategic or national threat as WoT has shown it’s from 12,000 miles away and they need to figure out what the hell they need to do to counter it. Because Pakistan will soon be on the chopping block.

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## KaiserX

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct---. Paf has been caught in a scary position of incompetence---damned if they go for it and damned if they don't---.
> 
> The cutesies of Paf will play havoc with the the future defences of pakistan---.
> 
> At the most critical juncture of pakistan's integrity---the Paf has left pakistan extremely vulnerable.



Unfortunately I feel like in the last few years the priorities of the PAF have taken a back burner compared to the priorities of the PA & PN. The amount of new weaponry coming onboard the next few years for the PA & PN is mind boggling while the PAF is still in limbo unsure of the J10CE (atleast publicly).

We are willing to spend 6 BN on 8 chinese submarines whereby we complain of the lack of funds to replace 200+ 50s era vintage fighters. I am not saying that AIP submarines are unimportant, but would it not have been a better idea to go with 4 subs initially and use the other half of funds (3BN) to aqcuire a decent amount of Fighters?

I just see our procurements all over the place with no vision in mind. Id like to see EVERY procurement placed on a temporary hold until we can wrap our heads around what is needed on an urgent basis for the PAF and prioritize that. Without air power our army & navy would be doomed in battle. The first step is to build a stakeholder concensus that the PAF is going to be prioritized above all else.

1 2 3 priority needs to be given to the PAF, JF17B3s are great, but it is not enough when India is expected to induct hundreds of fighters in the next 2 years (Rafales, MKI, Mig29, LCA) along with S400 SAMS.

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## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you very much for your post.
> 
> J-20 is a reality for Pakistan---. I had stated in years ago that if need be---the J-20 would be available to the Paf---. There were some silly comments to that---but the reality is that a lot has been on offer to pakistan.
> 
> Why the Paf has not taken the offer of other chinse aircraft in the past decade---sometimes it was a matter of ego---other times they got sabotaged by the F-16 mafia.
> 
> As of the J-20---china would rather have Paf use it against the enemy rater than china.
> 
> If it is successful---china can claim the victory and j=kudos to the Paf pilots---but if the Paf failed---china can then blame the Paf for being upto the mark on the 5th gen aircraft---.


Sir , Can PAF afford induction and then flyaway cost of J20 ?


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct---. Paf has been caught in a scary position of incompetence---damned if they go for it and damned if they don't---.
> 
> The cutesies of Paf will play havoc with the the future defences of pakistan---.
> 
> At the most critical juncture of pakistan's integrity---the Paf has left pakistan extremely vulnerable.


@MastanKhan Do you think J10C induction will make some kind balance now between PAF and IAF or we still need new block F16s


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## PakFactor

Scorpiooo said:


> Sir , Can PAF afford induction and then flyaway cost of J20 ?
> 
> @MastanKhan Do you think J10C induction will make some kind balance now between PAF and IAF or we still need new block F16s



@MastanKhan will answer this question himself. But I would like to interject into this that we need to stop thinking of F-16s that is a by gone era and we aren't getting anymore unless a WoT type conflict happens and Pak services are needed as the 80's and 00's has shown.

American priority is to arm India and they will not do anything to upset that, and the American's don't really care about the strategic balance at the moment between Pak-Indian. You only choice is below:

- Purchase J-10C High-End + J-17BIII low-mid end
- Increase your fighter inventory levels to match you neighbors, jet per jet (or the attrition will kill you)
- Invest in Long Range SAMs
- OSINT and Other Intel activities to target Indian SAM sites
- Naval Air Arm (PAF can't carry this burden as it will have to focus mainland air space, those who think PAF will provide some sort of cover are living in a fools paradise and that's PAF/PN High Ups). Hence I feel if the Navy doesn't built up our surface fleets will be picked of easily by our enemies.

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## Scorpiooo

> - Naval Air Arm (PAF can't carry this burden as it will have to focus mainland air space, those who think PAF will provide some sort of cover are living in a fools paradise and that's PAF/PN High Ups). Hence I feel if the Navy doesn't built up our surface fleets will be picked of easily by our enemies.


We need to induct few dedicated heavy twin jet for naval role in comings years in PAF and post 2030-35 need to have independent jets in naval air arm


PakFactor said:


> @MastanKhan will answer this question himself. But I would like to interject into this that we need to stop thinking of F-16s that is a by gone era and we aren't getting anymore unless a WoT type conflict happens and Pak services are needed as the 80's and 00's has shown.


We can't forgot one thing that is PAF baba jee love for F16s and expertise there pilots got on them.. 
Whatever the case PAF baba jee will continue there trys for F16s


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## PakFactor

Scorpiooo said:


> We need to induct few dedicated heavy twin jet for naval role in comings years in PAF and post 2030-35 need to have independent jets in naval air arm
> 
> We can't forgot one thing that is PAF baba jee love for F16s and expertise there pilots got on them..
> Whatever the case PAF baba jee will continue there trys for F16s



Hence why it pains me to see these babe jee's waste their time -- our people don't have a forward thinking capability. I often wonder how we in the West think on completely different level than our counter parts back home.

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## Scorpiooo

PakFactor said:


> Hence why it pains me to see these babe jee's waste their time -- our people don't have a forward thinking capability. I often wonder how we in the West think on completely different level than our counter parts back home.


These baba jee are still in there youth era 1980s when F16s was incredible and advance machine, Now time have evolved alot of things but they are still there

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## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> Sir , Can PAF afford induction and then flyaway cost of J20 ?
> 
> @MastanKhan Do you think J10C induction will make some kind balance now between PAF and IAF or we still need new block F16s



Hi,

Do you want to live your tomorrow as a free and strong nation---????

If 8 billion were found for 8 subs and 4 Type 054's then more funds can be found elsewhere.

Just don't donate it for earthquake relief.

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## FuturePAF

PakFactor said:


> @MastanKhan will answer this question himself. But I would like to interject into this that we need to stop thinking of F-16s that is a by gone era and we aren't getting anymore unless a WoT type conflict happens and Pak services are needed as the 80's and 00's has shown.
> 
> American priority is to arm India and they will not do anything to upset that, and the American's don't really care about the strategic balance at the moment between Pak-Indian. You only choice is below:
> 
> - Purchase J-10C High-End + J-17BIII low-mid end
> - Increase your fighter inventory levels to match you neighbors, jet per jet (or the attrition will kill you)
> - Invest in Long Range SAMs
> - OSINT and Other Intel activities to target Indian SAM sites
> - Naval Air Arm (PAF can't carry this burden as it will have to focus mainland air space, those who think PAF will provide some sort of cover are living in a fools paradise and that's PAF/PN High Ups). Hence I feel if the Navy doesn't built up our surface fleets will be picked of easily by our enemies.



The best thing for national defense would be long term reforms to get the economy on the right track. A growing economy can afford to spare more on national defense; especially when we know what we need but can’t spare a few billion here and there to procure them.

Many of us, individually and/or collectively have a live and let live attitude to personal and professional responsibility, while the rest of the world is harsh and is taking more and more of our market share in everything we do.

Our elders have been hobbled by the short term planning they have been forced by our economic and diplomatic circumstances, as well as our own lack of discipline. National will needs to be focused by competent bold leadership with a realistic vision we can build, incrementally and humbly, not afraid to challenge how things have been run for decades. Considering how inefficient we currently are, any leader worth their salt will be willing to push for the reforms we need and damn the consequences.

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## python-000

No doubt J-31/J-35 is the best option for PAF because it's a medium size dual-engines with Stealth features...


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## ProudPak

KaiserX said:


> I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.
> 
> No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.
> 
> It may be more likely that the PAF may be purchasing a dozen J-31/J35 rather than J20 but my source stood by his word. So far his own sources have been on point.
> 
> There would be value in the PAF purchasing a few dozen J-31/J-35 before maybe eventually starting its own production, but the J20 would be of immense value for the PAF and they might have concluded that a few dozen (24) might be reasonable to purchase (in batches of 12)?


Who is your source? Job etc? And why would your source give you secret info?
No j10 and no j20 are coming period...this is bs.
Remember we had hundreds of pages on Pakistan getting f16 block 70 started by an Arab with insider info...couple of guys called him out and he has since left the forum. All lies


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## Shabi1

KaiserX said:


> I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.
> 
> No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.
> 
> It may be more likely that the PAF may be purchasing a dozen J-31/J35 rather than J20 but my source stood by his word. So far his own sources have been on point.
> 
> There would be value in the PAF purchasing a few dozen J-31/J-35 before maybe eventually starting its own production, but the J20 would be of immense value for the PAF and they might have concluded that a few dozen (24) might be reasonable to purchase (in batches of 12)?


There was a recent picture of a PAF ZDK-03 in China with crew and poster claimed they are being discreetly upgraded for more work in PAF. This indicates PAF is planning on greater reliance on Chinese platforms/missiles for future engagements as PAF used Erieyes to guide AMRAAMs on the F-16s. 

Until J-10s actually land and show up in PAF colors, the J-10s are coming has been so much said that should be taken with skepticism. Its been a year and we only have 3 pictures of JF-17 B3 so I doubt if they can keep such a tight lid on JF-17 any one with knowledge will actually share anything until we see it flying in 23rd March Parade.


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## sal29

Just rambling .... Keeping in mind AZM project and discussing state of R&D in Pakistan

As per my experience armed forces (only had experience with army) have no clue how R&D works. Or it could be that they want to remain oblivious by choice. Real core expertise will be developed by private sector (less red tape overall) but private sector requires funding not just for final manufacturing of the product but also for R&D. In my experience they are willing to buy the final version but are not willing to fund the R&D part and have unrealistic expectations on costs, function and time to market. They also cannot grasp the concept of incremental changes to improve. The private sector cannot invest itself in these kinds of venture as first they don't guarantee that they will buy the final product and as most of these products are bespoke, it cant be sold to other customers easily. The government and armed forces also have no policy to develop the secondary industries that will be required for projects like AZM. For example we will need industry for military grade PCB manufacturing in private sector (could also product consumer products to decrease operating costs) and electronic component distributors (there is no presence of big distributors like digikey, arrow etc), easy access (duty free) to electronic equipment like RF analyzers, oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers etc (we cant even import a 3d printer  ). They also need to invest in development of machines that manufacture those machines like investments in additive manufacturing, high accuracy cnc machines, investment in development of machinery that can speed up manufacturing of composite parts etc.

Now lets come to technical expertise. We churning out thousands of technical graduates every year. Unfortunately most of them are not competent as one would hope. Real competency cannot come until significant reforms are made at university level. Most universities (even top tier) focus more on theoretical side of things (makes sense as they want to publish papers) rather than teaching how products are engineered. We also are not actively investing in technical education (dae level) of workforce. This work force is essential if you want to develop an industrial base.

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## Deino

KaiserX said:


> I was told last year by the same source which told me about Pakistans purchase of 40 J-10CEs that the PAF had also purchased a dozen J-20 fighter jets.
> 
> No one believed me since the last 6 months when I said that the first 2 squadrons are expected to arrive by the end of the year but it surprises me that might source also mention the purchase of a dozen J-20s and was adamant about it.
> ...



Indeed and still no-one - upps, sorry, one grumpy old man believes everything that I don't believe, but surely not since it's correct, but simply to disagree with me  - believes taht Pakistan will ever get J-20s, even less that they "had also purchased" already J-20s and most of all only "a dozen J-20 fighter jets".

Can we finally put this non-sense to a rest - even more since it is off-topic in the FC-31 thread - that some think from time to time they need to put out this topic?

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## PakAlp

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you very much for your post.
> 
> J-20 is a reality for Pakistan---. I had stated in years ago that if need be---the J-20 would be available to the Paf---. There were some silly comments to that---but the reality is that a lot has been on offer to pakistan.
> 
> Why the Paf has not taken the offer of other chinse aircraft in the past decade---sometimes it was a matter of ego---other times they got sabotaged by the F-16 mafia.
> 
> As of the J-20---china would rather have Paf use it against the enemy rater than china.
> 
> If it is successful---china can claim the victory and j=kudos to the Paf pilots---but if the Paf failed---china can then blame the Paf for being upto the mark on the 5th gen aircraft---.



If Pakistan buys the J20 then it would be by 2030 as we have no need for it at the moment. Our defence is targeted against India and they will not have a 5th generation jet till atleast 2030. By 2030 China will be targeting the 6th generation jet and J20 would easily be available, the benefit for paf would be that it will have chinese engine and would be more advanced. The J35 and Tfx is another option ofcourse.


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## mingle

PakAlp said:


> If Pakistan buys the J20 then it would be by 2030 as we have no need for it at the moment. Our defence is targeted against India and they will not have a 5th generation jet till atleast 2030. By 2030 China will be targeting the 6th generation jet and J20 would easily be available, the benefit for paf would be that it will have chinese engine and would be more advanced. The J35 and Tfx is another option ofcourse.


J20 are good if we wont able to get F16s upgardes logical replacement of old vipers is 5th Gen jet


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## PakAlp

mingle said:


> J20 are good if we wont able to get F16s upgardes logical replacement of old vipers is 5th Gen jet


 
F16s after 2030s? Yes paf wouldn't mind upgrades on it but J20 is the next generation fighter jet, we will need it no matter what.

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## Thorough Pro

8 subs are not going to be delivered next month, and not the full payment is done in advance.
8 subs will be delivered in the next 10 years and the payment will probably be made in the next 20 years.




KaiserX said:


> Unfortunately I feel like in the last few years the priorities of the PAF have taken a back burner compared to the priorities of the PA & PN. The amount of new weaponry coming onboard the next few years for the PA & PN is mind boggling while the PAF is still in limbo unsure of the J10CE (atleast publicly).
> 
> We are willing to spend 6 BN on 8 chinese submarines whereby we complain of the lack of funds to replace 200+ 50s era vintage fighters. I am not saying that AIP submarines are unimportant, but would it not have been a better idea to go with 4 subs initially and use the other half of funds (3BN) to aqcuire a decent amount of Fighters?
> 
> I just see our procurements all over the place with no vision in mind. Id like to see EVERY procurement placed on a temporary hold until we can wrap our heads around what is needed on an urgent basis for the PAF and prioritize that. Without air power our army & navy would be doomed in battle. The first step is to build a stakeholder concensus that the PAF is going to be prioritized above all else.
> 
> 1 2 3 priority needs to be given to the PAF, JF17B3s are great, but it is not enough when India is expected to induct hundreds of fighters in the next 2 years (Rafales, MKI, Mig29, LCA) along with S400 SAMS.


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## Deino

PakAlp said:


> F16s after 2030s? Yes paf wouldn't mind upgrades on it but J20 is the next generation fighter jet, we will need it no matter what.




You sound just like my little son while standing in front of a Porsche Cayenne telling me "dad, *we will need it no matter what*."! 
So welcome to reality: that's the harsh clash of dream meets reality!

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## Ghessan

Deino said:


> You sound just like my little son while standing in front of a Porsche Cayenne telling me "dad, *we will need it no matter what*."!
> So welcome to reality: that's the harsh clash of dream meets reality!



sometimes it feels you love to do this stuff...

waiting for a fish, get caught and then cut it down the belly, just to find whats inside.
but fish ain't have anything inside, everything it has is itself.

there is one more thing, people really need to grow old to learn few things as wisdom demands it.

but when someone somewhere does not learn with time but put the dirt on it and keep going with the intellect he or she possess, considering it enough to be a god, it becomes a blunder. 
a blunder that sane people observe from the distance but never correct him as they know it is worthless.


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## TOTUU

This video has a lot of information for those who know Chinese.


This 3.0 FC-31 (*Navy version*) carries fewer missiles than the J20, but can carry the same missile size as the J20.
It's supersonic cruise speed is greater than the supersonic cruise speed of J20 and the maximum speed is less than the maximum speed of J20.
Maximum flight speed is greater than Mach 2.2.
Electronic equipment is comparable to J20.
The heaviest anti-ship missile carried is launched at supersonic cruise with a theoretical range of more than 1,000 km.
The aerodynamic shape is more complex than the J20, resulting in more complex flight control software, so the development time is longer than the J20, the development costs are higher than the J20.
The video says that the advantages of the F35 over the FC31 are its large bomb load and long range, and its disadvantages are poor flight performance, weak combat power, and small maximum size of missiles that can be carried. The FC-31 is a high-altitude, high-speed fighter designed to attack the F35, which can be thought of as *a slimmed-down combat version of the F35 *. *the overall performance is ahead of the F35*.



FC-31 2.0 proving aircraft is an export model (*land-based version*) . 3.0 is the 2.0 version of the sea-based type

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> You sound just like my little son while standing in front of a Porsche Cayenne telling me "dad, *we will need it no matter what*."!
> So welcome to reality: that's the harsh clash of dream meets reality!




Hi,

You got dirt on your face many a times. Why do you keep asking for more---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You got dirt on your face many a times. Why do you keep asking for more---.




Indeed, just as you noted, it was me who's post was deleted by a senior moderator due to being again a completely irrelevant off-topic post with the only intention to insult by lying ... or wasn't it just the other way reversed?   

Can you not simply shut up and ignore or at least argue if there's anything to say? 

But again it seems insulting and "pouring oil into the fire to aggravate this already more than stupid dispute" is all you can. 

Oh man, get mature, go and look for a satisfying job or hobby but don't try to anger other peoples who have a live and even more see a meaning in live. What you are doing here, has surely none but to give you a good feeling and this in return is only a pity.

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## Shotgunner51

TOTUU said:


> FC-31 2.0 proving aircraft is an export model (*land-based version*) . 3.0 is the 2.0 version of the sea-based type


The more likely scenario is that 2.0 was a testbed (技术验证机) not prototype (原型机), the project has since day one been a naval/CV jet. SAC needs to fly the testbed(s) somewhere, naturally they choose to begin from dry land close to SAC facility, it doesn't mean it is a land-based "version" which never exists. The only one variant is naval/CV as of now, IF there is land-based or export or JV or twin-seat or whatever variants we love to imagine, they will only be developed after the original gets deployed on 003. Just my opinion.


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## TOTUU

Shotgunner51 said:


> The more likely scenario is that 2.0 was a testbed (技术验证机) not prototype (原型机), the project has since day one been a naval/CV jet. SAC needs to fly the testbed(s) somewhere, naturally they choose to begin from dry land close to SAC facility, it doesn't mean it is a land-based "version" which never exists. _The only one variant is naval/CV as of now_, IF there is land-based or export or JV or twin-seat or whatever variants we love to imagine, they will only be developed after the original gets deployed on 003. Just my opinion.


 The video at 3:22 makes it clear that the 3.0 is a 2.0 naval derivative, and the export type is also a 2.0 derivative. 

That means there are two derivative models of 2.0 -----1， the 3.0 version(Naval electromagnetic catapult type) . 2, the export version （ Land-based type ）.


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## Shotgunner51

TOTUU said:


> The video





TOTUU said:


> That means


This video is made by Xi Yazhou (席亚洲), a good observer but far from being official, his opinion/judgement could be just as wrong as yours and mine, nothing conclusive.

On this matter, I dispute with his opinion. Just like any military SOE, winning approval from central is always top priority for SAC, not to mention that's also an endorsement for exports. They know military doctrines of different military branches very well, it is natural for SAC to eye on next gen CV-based jets, that's their best bet. They should know as long as they hit this jack pot, exports as bonuses will come eventually, especially when the jet clearly differentiate (twin medium-thrust config) from potential competitors like J-10, F-35, and one G ahead of Rafale/Mig-35.

Technically speaking, I also doubt the relatively "crude" appearance of 2.0 (in comparison to 3.0) qualifies itself as any "prototype", most related to its smaller size and perhaps lesser equipment/weight installed. I believe it's a testbed.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Abid123

Pakistan needs to get around 100 J-31s.

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## Abid123

Trango Towers said:


> And you will pay with your pocket money ofcourse


No, you can tell your fellow Pakistanis to start paying tax. Tell them to stop cheating. If they do the tax revenue could easily pay for 100 J-31s.

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## Raja Porus

FC-31?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473530990622838789


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## Scorpiooo

Desert Fox 1 said:


> FC-31?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473530990622838789


All other jet belong to CAC so it cant be j31


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> All other jet belong to CAC so it cant be j31




Why not, the J-11/16 encircled in green is also not from CAC, but SAC.

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## Ali_Baba

Looks like the Su--57 Felon if you ask me - must have been taken during some exercise with the Ruskies..


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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Why not, the J-11/16 encircled in green is also not from CAC, but SAC.
> 
> View attachment 803397
> View attachment 803397


So in green is J35 ?


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> So in green is J35 ?




Please read my text: „the J-11/16 encircled in green“ .. green = a Flanker and surely not the J-35

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## Last starfighter

China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter




A model of China's FC-31 stealth fighter jet is on display at the Airshow China 2021 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Liu Xuanzun/GT

China has established an office dedicated to promoting the country's independently developed FC-31 stealth fighter jet on the international market in an effort by the aircraft's manufacturer to actively find customers.

Facing competition from foreign counterparts, like the US F-35 and the Russian Su-75, China's FC-31 has its own advantages including advanced technology, acceptable pricing, the lack of political restrictions, and complete service, analysts said on Thursday.

In a report published earlier this week introducing Zhan Qiang, Deputy General Manager of the Shenyang Aircraft Company (SAC), under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, the company said that Zhan made important progress in exploring the international arms market with the FC-31 as a key product to be offered.

Zhan organized the research resources of the SAC, transformed the company's traditional planning-oriented marketing mindset and actively explored the arms market for high-end aviation products. Zhan made good use of air shows to showcase the FC-31's technical advantages.

The FC-31 will be made into an iconic product and will provide real experience to customers, the company said.

Zhan has put together resources from the manufacturing company, the research institute and the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation to establish an office to promote exports of the FC-31 under a development tactic of "self-oriented active promoting" aimed to cultivate targeted users, according to the company.
This is also part of a plan to let the FC-31 to serve two markets, the company said, likely referring to the domestic and the international markets.

The international market of stealth fighter jets is far from saturated and the FC-31 will be very competitive, Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times on Thursday.

The US' F-35 stealth fighter jet mainly targets US allies and partners, and while many countries want to procure it, they lack enough budget or face a wide range of export restrictions set by the US, Wei said, noting that Russia has revealed its new Su-75 stealth fighter, but it has yet to make its maiden flight.
China's FC-31 is technically mature, can be fully domestically produced and enjoys advantages including high technology, acceptable pricing, the lack of political restrictions and complete service, as China can also provide a full set of airborne equipment and weapons," Wei said.

China could even have deeper cooperation with a customer by building assembly lines in the customer's country, Wei predicted.
The FC-31, China's second stealth fighter jet after the J-20, was recently put on display at the Airshow China in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, from late September to early October 2021, together with the powerful PL-15E beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

Reports suggest that the FC-31 will also become China's next-generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.

The FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine, medium-sized multi-role fighter jet with outstanding stealth capabilities, strong situational awareness, high maneuverability, advanced integrated logistics and good cost-effectiveness, according to the manufacturer.

How good would this be flying PAF colours

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## kankan326

Great news. This is more than earning money. The countries that buy most advanced fighter jet from China will naturally build closer tie with China

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## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

This is good move.. goodbye to F-35

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## untitled

China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## Daniel808

The First Customer will be China's Navy 👍 
















Soon

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## Beidou2020

Daniel808 said:


> The First Customer will be China's Navy 👍
> 
> View attachment 816722
> View attachment 816720
> View attachment 816718
> View attachment 816717
> 
> 
> 
> Soon
> View attachment 816719
> View attachment 816721



2nd customer should be the PLA Air Force.

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## retaxis

Shouldn't sell it to any country that is too close to the Anglo Axis. They will no doubt snoop around and try to figure out weaknesses of the jet. Maybe sell to Vietnam, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar, Central Asia and Argentina. Myanmar and Venezuela wants it too but they got no money for it.


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## Indos

Iran should get it


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## casual

Daniel808 said:


> The First Customer will be China's Navy 👍
> 
> View attachment 816722
> View attachment 816720
> View attachment 816718
> View attachment 816717
> 
> 
> 
> Soon
> View attachment 816719
> View attachment 816721


fc-1 won't have hardpoints on wing. that defeats the purpose of stealth shaping.


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## Daniel808

casual said:


> fc-1 won't have hardpoints on wing. that defeats the purpose of stealth shaping.



Depends on your missions & requirements.

If your Forces decimated enemy defence & gain Air-Superiority. Then you will see Stealth Aircfraft carrying payloads like this.

Just like J-20 5th Gen Stealth-Fighter also have external pylons


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## Ali_Baba

Last starfighter said:


> How good would this be flying PAF colours



I think PAF would prefer China to properly commit to this fighter before committing to it - Pakistan will not want to be the lead client on this and it will not want to procure until the PLAAF does .... PAF will want economies of scale on this platform before considering it. That is why the TFX is quite interesting to PAF - Turkey will commit to TFX big time - maybe more than China will to the FC-31 ... PAF got its fingers burned with the China on the JF17 when China pulled out of buying it - that act undermined a large portion of the business case for the JF17(China is at liberty to do what it wants etc ... ) but it meant Pakistan had to devote more financial resources to its design and build phase that it was originally planning to.. Lesson learned!!!!



Daniel808 said:


> Depends on your missions & requirements.
> 
> If your Forces decimated enemy defence & gain Air-Superiority. Then you will see Stealth Aircfraft carrying payloads like this.
> 
> Just like J-20 5th Gen Stealth-Fighter also have external pylons
> View attachment 816781



To me - this is the most beautiful picture of the J20 ever !!! Looks like a proper snarling Dragon here !!!

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## SuvarnaTeja

kankan326 said:


> Great news. This is more than earning money. The countries that buy most advanced fighter jet from China will naturally build closer tie with China



China should offer J-31 to India for the 114 MRFA requirement.

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## Zarvan

A new office in China has been established for the purpose of promoting the FC-31 stealth fighter in foreign markets, indicating that the aircraft is considered ready for serial production if not that production may have already begun. The Shenyang Aircraft Manufacturing Company’s FC-31 fifth generation fighter program saw the aircraft make its first flight in 2012, a year after its rival the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group’s J-20, and although largely overshadowed by its competitor it has seen considerable progress towards serial production over the past decade. While the J-20 entered service in the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force in March 2017, and has since seen extensive improvements made to the design and a specialised twin seat variant developed, the FC-31 program for a lighter medium weight stealth fighter appears to have seen less interest from the PLA. Although it has been used as the basis for developing a carrier based fighter, ground based variants of the aircraft has long been speculated to be aimed at export markets capitalising on the fact that the higher end J-20 is reserved for domestic use only by the PLA. There is a significant possibility that China's armed forces will not acquire any of the aircraft other than variants modified for aircraft carrier operations.












China has a history of producing fighters primarily for export, most notably the JF-17 series which are not in PLA service, as it currently has more fighter classes in production than any other country. The FC-31 is the only medium weight fifth generation fighter to have flown, and will complete with the lighter single engine American F-35 on foreign markets. The F-35 and J-20 are currently the only fifth generation fighters in the world in production and fielded at squadron level strength - highlighting Chinese and U.S. leadership in the field of combat aviation. This left the F-35 as the only fifth generation fighter offered for export, although the market is expected to become more competitive not only with the introduction of the FC-31, but also the Russian Su-57 heavyweight fighter which is expected to begin to see foreign sales around 2025. Russia is currently the only country to offer a heavyweight fifth generation fighter for export due in part to its smaller defence budget and greater need for foreign funding to support its programs. 












Alongside the FC-31 and F-35, Russia has also developed the S-75 Checkmate lightweight fighter which is expected to fly around 2025. Having flown 10-15 years earlier, however, and produced by a country with much greater experience developing and operating fifth generation fighters, the FC-31 will likely have an advantage. The Chinese fighter’s greater weight, however, while likely providing a superior performance, will also likely result in operational costs which are higher than the S-75 and possibly even than those of the F-35. It remains uncertain whether the FC-31 will see any foreign interest, with the F-35 and Su-57 potentially being more attractive because they are used in the U.S. and Russian air forces while their Chinese rival is not used in the PLA Air Force. The fighter's use in the PLA Navy, however, could do much to mitigate this - much like the American F-18E Super Hornet fourth generation fighter saw considerable interest for use in foreign air forces despite being used exclusively by the U.S. Navy domestically. The FC-31 represents the first medium or heavyweight fighter China has offered for export, with only the JF-17 and the lightweight J-10C previously having been offered abroad. Southeast Asia, the Arab world, and possibly Iran, are considered possible clients. A lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client. 





__





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com

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## GOAT

I came across this article which states that: 

“A lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”

This is exciting if true. Welcome any additional insights on this.

Military Watch Magazine: 5th Gen Successor to JF-17


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## Daniel808

Ali_Baba said:


> I think PAF would prefer China to properly commit to this fighter before committing to it - Pakistan will not want to be the lead client on this and it will not want to procure until the PLAAF does .... PAF will want economies of scale on this platform before considering it. That is why the TFX is quite interesting to PAF - Turkey will commit to TFX big time - maybe more than China will to the FC-31 ... PAF got its fingers burned with the China on the JF17 when China pulled out of buying it - that act undermined a large portion of the business case for the JF17(China is at liberty to do what it wants etc ... ) but it meant Pakistan had to devote more financial resources to its design and build phase that it was originally planning to.. Lesson learned!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> To me - this is the most beautiful picture of the J20 ever !!! Looks like a proper snarling Dragon here !!!



FC-31 already secured commitment both from Navy and Air Force.

With Navy version called J-35, and Air Force version called J-21.

But, the Priority is for Navy Version at this moment. Because the Launching of China’s Next-Gen EMALS Super-Carrier (CVBG-18) is imminent. Only few months left.







J-35 (FC-31) Nice Wallpaper

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## FuturePAF

GOAT said:


> I came across this article which states that:
> 
> “A lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”
> 
> This is exciting if true. Welcome any additional insights on this.
> 
> Military Watch Magazine: 5th Gen Successor to JF-17



A stealthily lightweight fighter (100-120kn engine) could be very competitive, price wise at ~$40 million, in a market still flooded with 4 and 4.5 Gen fighters.

If it can hold at least 3-4 PL-15 in an internal bay and house WVR missiles in a pod similar to the SU-57, it would be very attractive to even NATO countries like Turkey, and maybe able to hold its own against other Fifth Gen fighters with the right C4ISR.

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## Shotgunner51

Ali_Baba said:


> JF17 when China pulled out of buying it


Bro I've seen this narrative before but that's not true. JF-17 (FC-1, Super 7) has always been a PAF-specific and PAC-led project to start with, involving CAC as original designer, Klimov on RD-93, and some European vendors like Martin Baker. It's unrelated with PLAAF, which has bet all money on flankers, J-10 & WS-10 turbofan.

J-35 (or FC-31) is slightly different, it's a PLAN-specific and SAC-led project from day one. But again, PLAAF is not in the picture, their money is vested heavy on J-10 as mainstay, they won't procure another non-WS-10-powered MMRCA, at least in the short run.

I guess PAF's next gen could be TFX, or a land-based variant of J-35 (or FC-31). You are right, if they are interested in the latter, they may wait till the bird getting IOC or FOC on PLAN's carriers, then make decision.

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## MH.Yang

PakAlp said:


> By 2030 China will be targeting the 6th generation jet and J20 would easily be available, the benefit for paf would be that it will have chinese engine and would be more advanced. The J35 and Tfx is another option ofcourse.



J20 has a long body and is very suitable for the development of two seater J20. The two seater J20 is suitable for controlling loyal wingmen, J20 is likely to develop into a 5.5G fighter in the future. 
I don't think PLAAF will allow the export of J20 in 2030.



Two seater J20 and dark arrow supersonic UAV have been born:

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## FuturePAF

Shotgunner51 said:


> Bro I've seen this narrative before but that's not true. JF-17 (FC-1, Super 7) has always been a PAF-specific and PAC-led project to start with, involving CAC as original designer, Klimov on RD-93, and some European vendors like Martin Baker. It's unrelated with PLAAF, which has bet all money on flankers, J-10 & WS-10 turbofan.
> 
> J-35 (or FC-31) is slightly different, it's a PLAN-specific and SAC-led project from day one. But again, PLAAF is not in the picture, their money is vested heavy on J-10 as mainstay, they won't procure another non-WS-10-powered MMRCA, at least in the short run.
> 
> I guess PAF's next gen could be TFX, or a land-based variant of J-35 (or FC-31). You are right, if they are interested in the latter, they may wait till the bird getting IOC or FOC on PLAN's carriers, then make decision.



The JF-17 probably also doesn’t fit into the PLAAF or PLANAF’s doctrine because the JF-17 is a relatively short legged aircraft with a lighter payload.

Just like how the J-10 has matured enough to match the Rafale, perhaps the PAF is waiting till the J-35 and/or T-FX match or exceed the F-35 (which could eventually be sold to India). The PAF always focuses on maintaining a qualitative edge when possible. In the meantime, a low observable Loyal wingman would be a project the PAF is focusing on, in the fighter arena beyond development of the JF-17 and acquisition of the J-10.

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## MH.Yang

Ali_Baba said:


> PAF got its fingers burned with the China on the JF17 when China pulled out of buying it



China has never promised to buy JF17, that's a rumor. 
JF17 is a good fighter, but China will not buy any light fighter. 
The distance from Zengmu Misha, the southernmost island in China, to Haikou airport is 1800km, so light fighters are not suitable for China.

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## FuturePAF

MH.Yang said:


> China has never promised to buy JF17, that's a rumor.
> JF17 is a good fighter, but China will not buy any light fighter.
> The distance from Zengmu Misha, the southernmost island in China, to Haikou airport is 1800km, so light fighters are not suitable for China.


It maybe a good idea to promote further co-development of the JF-17 with the Turks, if they are actually interested. They have a need to counter not only the Rafale, but soon enough they will be faced with the F-35 in the Hellenic Air Force. Not sure about the reliability of this news from today, but it will be true sooner rather then later.



Redirect Notice



Pakistan too would want to continue the development of the JF-17 and a low RCS development would be attractive to many Air Forces around the world. If the price is half that of a F-35 and below that of even 4th Gen fighters, it could wipe out sales prospects of all other competitors in the light fighter market of non-aligned nations.

The Turks even studied a single engine conventional layout T-FX design. The Turks will also need a reliable engine supplier for their T-FX program, so acquiring/co-producing a light single engine fighter with 100-120 kn class engine may have future downstream benefits for decades to come.




https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2018/01/1l-Image-TAI-TF-X-Stealth-Fighter.jpg

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## Shotgunner51

FuturePAF said:


> The JF-17 probably also doesn’t fit into the PLAAF or PLANAF’s doctrine of a relatively short legged aircraft with a lighter payload.
> 
> Just like how the J-10 has matured enough to match the Rafale, perhaps the PAF is waiting till the J-35 and/or T-FX match or exceed the F-35 (which could eventually be sold to India). The PAF always focuses on maintaining a qualitative edge when possible. In the meantime, a low observable Loyal wingman would be a project the PAF is focusing on, in the fighter arena beyond development of the JF-17 and acquisition of the J-10.


Exactly! There are multiple next gen options for PAF to choose, I won't know what's their choice, but for PLAAF, it's obviously going for more unmanned and perhaps AI-controlled vehicles.

For PLAAF, air superiority will be primarily centered on J-20 (with UAV aka "loyal wingman"), J-11B as supplement (say fleet escort or "shooter"), while strike missions done by heavy/medium multi-role fighters (J-10/16), bombers (H-6K/N, H-20) or UAV (GJ-11) depending on the mission type. You can see why there is no urgent need for J-35 (FC-31).

But PLAN is different, they need J-35 (FC-31) to do what J-20 is doing in PLAAF.

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## Deino

Via 高山CG

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> It maybe a good idea to promote further co-development of the JF-17 with the Turks, if they are actually interested. They have a need to counter not only the Rafale, but soon enough they will be faced with the F-35 in the Hellenic Air Force. Not sure about the reliability of this news from today, but it will be true sooner rather then later.
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan too would want to continue the development of the JF-17 and a low RCS development would be attractive to many Air Forces around the world. If the price is half that of a F-35 and below that of even 4th Gen fighters, it could wipe out sales prospects of all other competitors in the light fighter market of non-aligned nations.
> 
> The Turks even studied a single engine conventional layout T-FX design. The Turks will also need a reliable engine supplier for their T-FX program, so acquiring/co-producing a light single engine fighter with 100-120 kn class engine may have future downstream benefits for decades to come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2018/01/1l-Image-TAI-TF-X-Stealth-Fighter.jpg


The JFT is too small to be a stealth fighter. They will require a 140 kn engine to have enough space to house 4+2 missiles on the body plus have enough range to carry out its mission profile. I dont see that happenning on the JFT sized frame but the J10 sized frame might be enough.
A



MH.Yang said:


> China has never promised to buy JF17, that's a rumor.
> JF17 is a good fighter, but China will not buy any light fighter.
> The distance from Zengmu Misha, the southernmost island in China, to Haikou airport is 1800km, so light fighters are not suitable for China.


The problem is ever since I have heard of the JFT I have been hearing in the international and Pakistani press of a commitment by the Chinese Govtt to buy 150 platforms. Now I dont know what the source of this is but it is stuck in our minds. 
Lately we have heard that this was never the case but to get the fact out of Pakistani memory bank is difficult. I can understand exactly why the PLAAF would not want to buy the JFT.
A

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## BigMelatonin

Indos said:


> Iran should get it


Yes, the J-31 is the only real option for IRIAF. There is no point in buying a 4th gen fighter at this point and Russia will never sell any non-obsolete fighters to Iran.

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> The JFT is too small to be a stealth fighter. They will require a 140 kn engine to have enough space to house 4+2 missiles on the body plus have enough range to carry out its mission profile. I dont see that happenning on the JFT sized frame but the J10 sized frame might be enough.
> A
> 
> 
> The problem is ever since I have heard of the JFT I have been hearing in the international and Pakistani press of a commitment by the Chinese Govtt to buy 150 platforms. Now I dont know what the source of this is but it is stuck in our minds.
> Lately we have heard that this was never the case but to get the fact out of Pakistani memory bank is difficult. I can understand exactly why the PLAAF would not want to buy the JFT.
> A


Retrospectively doing a JV when one party wont induct isnt a smart idea.

However pakistan didnt had any other options anyway and was a good learning experience

Weather we can take it one step ahead is the question

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> The JFT is too small to be a stealth fighter. They will require a 140 kn engine to have enough space to house 4+2 missiles on the body plus have enough range to carry out its mission profile. I dont see that happenning on the JFT sized frame but the J10 sized frame might be enough.
> A
> 
> 
> The problem is ever since I have heard of the JFT I have been hearing in the international and Pakistani press of a commitment by the Chinese Govtt to buy 150 platforms. Now I dont know what the source of this is but it is stuck in our minds.
> Lately we have heard that this was never the case but to get the fact out of Pakistani memory bank is difficult. I can understand exactly why the PLAAF would not want to buy the JFT.
> A


That’s true. Being limited to a 100-120 kn engine would restricted the potential of a stealth platform. That’s why the SAAB stealth design was centered around a 170 kn engine, from whom the Turks got some consulting work for their T-FX. The real question is who would be willing to supply the Turks with a stand-alone engine of that class. At that point the Turks might as well work with the Chinese to further develop the FC-31 or just sit tight and chance it till the T-FX is ready. They could also just buy/license produce? the J-10CE and put some of their own sub-Systems inside as a stop-gap.









Everything you need to know about Turkey's next-gen stealth fighter jet


As Turkey puts its specialist expertise to the task of developing its own stealth fighter, these are the advanced technological developments you can expect to see.




www.trtworld.com


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## python-000

Deino said:


> View attachment 816879
> 
> 
> 
> Via 高山CG


Hope PAF will go for J-35 after J-10C...

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## dBSPL

BigMelatonin said:


> Russia will never sell any non-obsolete fighters to Iran.


Hi, I'm really curious why this is. I would be very pleased if you could give some information about the reasons for this here or in the related topic.Ty.


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## Trailer23

​Credit: @NA71

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## BigMelatonin

dBSPL said:


> Hi, I'm really curious why this is. I would be very pleased if you could give some information about the reasons for this here or in the related topic.Ty.


For a couple of reasons, Russia and the Israeli state have close relations. For example, Russia allows IAF to bomb unopposed in Syria as long as they do not harm Russians. This is why, despite having modern SAMs, the Syrian Air Defense is using decades old SA-5s against the attacks. 
And while Iran and Russia are not enemies, you could call them geopolitical rivals with some converging interests, similar to Iran and Turkiye. They delayed sale of S-300 for years and since then no major sales outside of infantry rifles have been made.
There have been repeated reports of Iranian military officials asking Russians for Su-30/35 and from all the reports I've seen they best thing Russia offered was Su-27SK from the 90s.

But to keep on topic, IMO IRIAF should make serious efforts to try to obtain the J-31 in large numbers to replace it's ancient fleet. Issue will be lack of cash as China seems to be less open to payment with oil.

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## Last starfighter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
> This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions


Yes special occasions like their holi


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## Indos

BigMelatonin said:


> For a couple of reasons, Russia and the Israeli state have close relations. For example, Russia allows IAF to bomb unopposed in Syria as long as they do not harm Russians. This is why, despite having modern SAMs, the Syrian Air Defense is using decades old SA-5s against the attacks.
> And while Iran and Russia are not enemies, you could call them geopolitical rivals with some converging interests, similar to Iran and Turkiye. They delayed sale of S-300 for years and since then no major sales outside of infantry rifles have been made.
> There have been repeated reports of Iranian military officials asking Russians for Su-30/35 and from all the reports I've seen they best thing Russia offered was Su-27SK from the 90s.
> 
> But to keep on topic, IMO IRIAF should make serious efforts to try to obtain the J-31 in large numbers to replace it's ancient fleet. Issue will be lack of cash as China seems to be less open to payment with oil.



Many Jews also live in Russia, and like happening in Western nations, they may be a successful business people who can influence the government.

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## Daniel808

Exactly! There are multiple next gen options for PAF to choose, I won't know what's their choice, but for PLAAF, it's obviously going for more unmanned and perhaps AI-controlled vehicles.


Shotgunner51 said:


> For PLAAF, air superiority will be primarily centered on J-20 (with UAV aka "loyal wingman"), J-11B as supplement (say fleet escort or "shooter"), while strike missions done by heavy/medium multi-role fighters (J-10/16), bombers (H-6K/N, H-20) or UAV (GJ-11) depending on the mission type. You can see why there is no urgent need for J-35 (FC-31).
> 
> But PLAN is different, they need J-35 (FC-31) to do what J-20 is doing in PLAAF.




Yes, Air Force budget still focused on pumping J-20 Production lines. End 2021 alone, J-20 Production already reach 150+ units.

That’s why after 7th Batch J-10C/CP production finished, they would moved to J-10C Production lines to GAC (Guizhou AVIC). While CAC (Chengdu AVIC) focusing on J-20 Production lines.

J-20 Production unit itself expected to be reach 220-250+ Units in the end of this year (Surpassing F-22 production number with high margin)

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## Luosifen

Daniel808 said:


> Exactly! There are multiple next gen options for PAF to choose, I won't know what's their choice, but for PLAAF, it's obviously going for more unmanned and perhaps AI-controlled vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Air Force budget still focused on pumping J-20 Production lines. End 2021 alone, J-20 Production already reach 150+ units.
> 
> That’s why after 7th Batch J-10C/CP production finished, they would moved to J-10C Production lines to GAC (Guizhou AVIC). While CAC (Chengdu AVIC) focusing on J-20 Production lines.
> 
> J-20 Production unit itself expected to be reach 220-250+ Units in the end of this year (Surpassing F-22 production number with high margin)


Just for clarification, when you say production, are you talking about production as 150 total units built from beginning of serial production, or a 150 build rate per year? I had been under the impression J-20 output was ramping up to somewhere around 40/year.


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## casual

Daniel808 said:


> Depends on your missions & requirements.
> 
> If your Forces decimated enemy defence & gain Air-Superiority. Then you will see Stealth Aircfraft carrying payloads like this.
> 
> Just like J-20 5th Gen Stealth-Fighter also have external pylons
> View attachment 816782
> View attachment 816783
> View attachment 816781


Those are fuel tanks for ferrying the plane over long distances. They aren't ever used in combat missions.


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## Daniel808

Luosifen said:


> Just for clarification, when you say production, are you talking about production as 150 total units built from beginning of serial production, or a 150 build rate per year? I had been under the impression J-20 output was ramping up to somewhere around 40/year.



Yes, from beginning. 150+ is Total units right now deployed in China's Air Force (PLA-AF) Active Service.

In 2021 alone, J-20 Production line capacity is somewhat around 48-52+ Units/year. With 8th Batch J-10C production lines moved to Guizhou (GAC AVIC), and Production Lines from New Chengdu (CAC AVIC) Facility, it would reach 72-96+ units/year for sure.

They really pumping up J-20 Production rate, as it's categorized by China's Air Force (PLA-AF) as urgent needs. if not they wouldn't moved J-10C Production lines to Guizhou (GAC AVIC) after they finished 7th Batch & Pakistani (PAF) Order

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## MH.Yang

BigMelatonin said:


> For a couple of reasons, Russia and the Israeli state have close relations. For example, Russia allows IAF to bomb unopposed in Syria as long as they do not harm Russians. This is why, despite having modern SAMs, the Syrian Air Defense is using decades old SA-5s against the attacks.
> And while Iran and Russia are not enemies, you could call them geopolitical rivals with some converging interests, similar to Iran and Turkiye. They delayed sale of S-300 for years and since then no major sales outside of infantry rifles have been made.
> There have been repeated reports of Iranian military officials asking Russians for Su-30/35 and from all the reports I've seen they best thing Russia offered was Su-27SK from the 90s.
> 
> But to keep on topic, IMO IRIAF should make serious efforts to try to obtain the J-31 in large numbers to replace it's ancient fleet. Issue will be lack of cash as China seems to be less open to payment with oil.



Chinese people welcome oil payment. 

But I don't think the Iranian govt will allow China to enter the Iranian military field. 

After invests US $400 billion for Iran, China is bound to have a great influence on Iran's economy. The Iranian govt must need other forces to balance China's influence.

The Iranian govt will certainly buy fighters from Russia, not China.


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## EpiiC

U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will likely be more than a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. They suggest that the capability of the J-31 against the newest fighters, such as the U.S. F-22 and F-35, would depend on factors such as numbers of platforms, quality of pilots, and capabilities of radars and other sensors.

Possibly better than 4th gen US planes but likely outdone by f-35 and f-22.

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## ProudPak

EpiiC said:


> U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will likely be more than a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. They suggest that the capability of the J-31 against the newest fighters, such as the U.S. F-22 and F-35, would depend on factors such as numbers of platforms, quality of pilots, and capabilities of radars and other sensors.
> 
> Possibly better than 4th gen US planes but likely outdone by f-35 and f-22.


The white man really is under the skin of people here. They always think the white products are superior. Yet have no knowledge other than hyped up marketing

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## EpiiC

ProudPak said:


> The white man really is under the skin of people here. They always think the white products are superior. Yet have no knowledge other than hyped up marketing


U really think f-31 is better than F-35?


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## Luosifen

Which PAF squadrons would be 1st priority for the FC-31?


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## tphuang

Daniel808 said:


> Yes, from beginning. 150+ is Total units right now deployed in China's Air Force (PLA-AF) Active Service.
> 
> In 2021 alone, J-20 Production line capacity is somewhat around 48-52+ Units/year. With 8th Batch J-10C production lines moved to Guizhou (GAC AVIC), and Production Lines from New Chengdu (CAC AVIC) Facility, it would reach 72-96+ units/year for sure.
> 
> They really pumping up J-20 Production rate, as it's categorized by China's Air Force (PLA-AF) as urgent needs. if not they wouldn't moved J-10C Production lines to Guizhou (GAC AVIC) after they finished 7th Batch & Pakistani (PAF) Order


There aren't 150 in service right now. Probably 100 based on recent counting of serial numbers and units we know about. My guess the current production rate is around a 40 a year and on the way to 50 a year. This might go up higher in the coming years, but they will need to keep optimizing and improving production line.

It's a huge deal to be able to produce J-20 this quickly already.


EpiiC said:


> U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will likely be more than a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. They suggest that the capability of the J-31 against the newest fighters, such as the U.S. F-22 and F-35, would depend on factors such as numbers of platforms, quality of pilots, and capabilities of radars and other sensors.
> 
> Possibly better than 4th gen US planes but likely outdone by f-35 and f-22.


All this is paper talk. F-22 has 50% availability rate. It could not even fly off the ground when a big hurricane struck one of its based in NC and ended up damaging a whole bunch of them. And it's only getting most costly to maintain and less available as we step further away from its production ending date. The USAF decision to stop F-22 production is turning out to be a a huge disaster.

We'd have to see what J-31 looks like to get a better understanding of its stealth and overall capabilities. It looks to be the best approximation of F-35 you can find with the exception of having 2 engines instead of 1. The T/W ratios are about the same. The configurations are very similar. Based on the prototypes, J-31 production quality looks close to J-20 and F-22 and below that of F-35. Stealth wise, it looks very similar to F-35 in shaping from front and sides. It definitely has more issue in the rear compared to F-35, although F-35 is also less stealthy from rear than F-22. Unless they can fix the rear and improve production quality, I would expect J-31 to be less stealthy than F-35, but still very stealthy from most angles. In terms of electronics, it should be very well designed to use passive and LPI active sensors like J-20 and F-35. So from most aspect, it's competitive with F-35, but theoretically worse in stealth. Depending on what J-31 is fighting with, that may or may not overcome those differences.

Keep in mind that J-31 should still eat 4th gen aircraft for lunch. There is a huge gap between aircraft with high level of stealth and modern situation awareness/networking vs those that don't. So in a battlefield, things like numbers, availability, endurance, cap time and supporting aircraft will matter a lot. J-31 does not need to take down too many F-35s to be victorious. It just needs to out last F-35s and take out a good chunk of non-stealthy aircraft like tankers, AWACs and 4th generation aircraft. It's far easier to take out F-35 when they return to their flight deck of air base for maintenance rather than taking them out while they are still flying. So when certain people say that J-20 or J-31 aren't as stealthy/capable as F-35, that really completely over looks other aircraft in the theater. 5th generation aircraft are larger threats to other aircraft than they are too each other.

For PAF, the best case scenario is if IAF ends up purchasing Su-57 as its "5th generation" aircraft. The worst case scenario is if IAF ends up purchasing F-35. With the former, PAF will have a pretty large qualitative advantage. With the latter, PAF will need a little more help from PLAAF in ways to counter.

By the way, land version of FC-31 will never be available for a while. I'm guessing at least 5 more years before land version of FC-31 join service, so earliest export will probably be in 2029 to 2030 range.

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## Beast

BigMelatonin said:


> For a couple of reasons, Russia and the Israeli state have close relations. For example, Russia allows IAF to bomb unopposed in Syria as long as they do not harm Russians. This is why, despite having modern SAMs, the Syrian Air Defense is using decades old SA-5s against the attacks.
> And while Iran and Russia are not enemies, you could call them geopolitical rivals with some converging interests, similar to Iran and Turkiye. They delayed sale of S-300 for years and since then no major sales outside of infantry rifles have been made.
> There have been repeated reports of Iranian military officials asking Russians for Su-30/35 and from all the reports I've seen they best thing Russia offered was Su-27SK from the 90s.
> 
> But to keep on topic, IMO IRIAF should make serious efforts to try to obtain the J-31 in large numbers to replace it's ancient fleet. Issue will be lack of cash as China seems to be less open to payment with oil.


Close r/s? Russia and Israel nearly go into war over a Russia down AWACS as Israel EW caused Syria air defense to down a Russia plane. They don't each other eye to eye. Israel enjoy close r/s with US which something Russian are wary of.


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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> Chinese people welcome oil payment.
> 
> But I don't think the Iranian govt will allow China to enter the Iranian military field.
> 
> After invests US $400 billion for Iran, China is bound to have a great influence on Iran's economy. The Iranian govt must need other forces to balance China's influence.
> 
> The Iranian govt will certainly buy fighters from Russia, not China.


Absolutely disagree with you. After signing the USD 400 billion deal, it is even more imperative for Iran to get Chinese arms and allow barter trade to reduce waste on forex exchange rate. Oil to trade for weapon. Advantage is on Iran side. 

Iranian are no fools just to take some unsatisfactory weapon just to reduce leverage on others. They will buy what is good for them.


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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> Absolutely disagree with you. After signing the USD 400 billion deal, it is even more imperative for Iran to get Chinese arms and allow barter trade to reduce waste on forex exchange rate. Oil to trade for weapon. Advantage is on Iran side.
> 
> Iranian are no fools just to take some unsatisfactory weapon just to reduce leverage on others. They will buy what is good for them.



Pakistan is a neighbor of Iran, and the two countries are not closely related. Considering the special relationship between China and Pakistan. If there is a conflict between the Pakistan and Iran, how can Iran ensure the right to use Chinese fighters?

Iran is sure to buy Russian fighter planes and only favor China economically. That is to balance Russia's influence through China, and contain Pakistan's diplomatic tendency. In turn, Iran also can use Russia to balance China's influence.


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## BigMelatonin

Beast said:


> Close r/s? Russia and Israel nearly go into war over a Russia down AWACS as Israel EW caused Syria air defense to down a Russia plane. They don't each other eye to eye. Israel enjoy close r/s with US which something Russian are wary of.


Disagree, they did not even come close to conflict. All Russia did was deliver S-300 to Syria which it doesn't even allow to be used against Israeli aircraft. Since then the heads of the Israeli state have repeatedly visited Russia to cooperate on "regional issues."









Bennett extends Russia trip over Shabbat after ‘warm’ Putin talks run long


First meeting between leaders seen as key in keeping Russia-Israel ties on track following departure of Netanyahu; talks said to have focused on Syria, Iran




www.timesofisrael.com






MH.Yang said:


> Pakistan is a neighbor of Iran, and the two countries are not closely related. Considering the special relationship between China and Pakistan. If there is a conflict between the Pakistan and Iran, how can Iran ensure the right to use Chinese fighters?
> 
> Iran is sure to buy Russian fighter planes and only favor China economically. That is to balance Russia's influence through China, and contain Pakistan's diplomatic tendency. In turn, Iran also can use Russia to balance China's influence.


Well that's too bad them because Russia is definitely not selling anything, and it's not for a lack of interest on Iran's part.









Israel and Russia coordinate arms sale preventing deals with Iran


Ariel Bulshtein, adviser to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has announced that Israel has refused to sell weapons to Georgia, at Russia's request. He also stated a month and a half a...




www.middleeastmonitor.com





Like I said, the J-31 is the ONLY option Iran has for a good 5th generation fighter.


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## IblinI

BigMelatonin said:


> the J-31 is the ONLY option Iran has for a good 5th generation fighter.


are you referring to J-35? Because J-31 as a program may not existed anymore.

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## MH.Yang

BigMelatonin said:


> Disagree, they did not even come close to conflict. All Russia did was deliver S-300 to Syria which it doesn't even allow to be used against Israeli aircraft. Since then the heads of the Israeli state have repeatedly visited Russia to cooperate on "regional issues."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bennett extends Russia trip over Shabbat after ‘warm’ Putin talks run long
> 
> 
> First meeting between leaders seen as key in keeping Russia-Israel ties on track following departure of Netanyahu; talks said to have focused on Syria, Iran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's too bad them because Russia is definitely not selling anything, and it's not for a lack of interest on Iran's part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel and Russia coordinate arms sale preventing deals with Iran
> 
> 
> Ariel Bulshtein, adviser to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has announced that Israel has refused to sell weapons to Georgia, at Russia's request. He also stated a month and a half a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.middleeastmonitor.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, the J-31 is the ONLY option Iran has for a good 5th generation fighter.



Iran is not without access to Chinese weapons. As early as the Iran Iraq war, Iran purchased a large amount of equipment from China, including missile production lines. However, unlike missiles, fighters need long-term technical support from exporting countries. Therefore, Iran govt will certainly consider the stability of diplomatic relations.
It is not that China refuses to sell J35, but that the Iran govt is afraid to buy J35.


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## BigMelatonin

IblinI said:


> are you referring to J-35? Because J-31 as a program may not existed anymore.


Isn't J-35 carrier based version of J-31?


MH.Yang said:


> Iran is not without access to Chinese weapons. As early as the Iran Iraq war, Iran purchased a large amount of equipment from China, including missile production lines. However, unlike missiles, fighters need long-term technical support from exporting countries. Therefore, Iran govt will certainly consider the stability of diplomatic relations.
> It is not that China refuses to sell J35, but that the Iran govt is afraid to buy J35.


As far as I know they have not approached China for any aircraft, rather as you said they keep going to Russia fruitlessly.


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## IblinI

BigMelatonin said:


> Isn't J-35 carrier based version of J-31?


J-31 was an exported project started by SAC itself but later won the heart of PLAN, but everything has upgraded aligned with PLAN's requirement.
btw it is no longer a second tier fifth gen fighter after J-20 that people once thought, in fact, J-35 has been using tech that J20 doesn't have according to some insider.

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## Deino

IblinI said:


> J-31 was an exported project started by SAC itself but later won the heart of PLAN, but everything has upgraded aligned with PLAN's requirement.
> btw it is no longer a second tier fifth gen fighter after J-20 that people once thought, in fact, J-35 has been using tech that J20 doesn't have according to some insider.




Indeed ... and since it is now a high priority PLAN project - in fact I'm quite sure it always was fully supported but delayed due to other reasons and as such "labelled an export type" - it lost this export necessary. So I'm sure, any future customer has to wait until it is mature and in service in numbers in PLAN service ...

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## araz

Deino said:


> Indeed ... and since it is now a high priority PLAN project - in fact I'm quite sure it always was fully supported but delayed due to other reasons and as such "labelled an export type" - it lost this export necessary. So I'm sure, any future customer has to wait until it is mature and in service in numbers in PLAN service ...


Deino.
Iam looking at it slightly differently. I think it did not have support initially. So they went out seeking it in the guise of an export only version. They did not get any joy. Now that the PLAN has shown interest the history is being changed to "we always had support. It just got delayed". The sceptic in me sees a bit of spin doctoring. However, I fully agree that it is a more beautiful plane than the J20. Its size might make it more appealing to many buyers and it will find interest from buyers once it is fully developed.
By the by do you have any inklings on this 3rd design that is based on J20 being offered for export to PAF. Help appreciated.
A

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## That Guy

BigMelatonin said:


> Disagree, they did not even come close to conflict. All Russia did was deliver S-300 to Syria which it doesn't even allow to be used against Israeli aircraft. Since then the heads of the Israeli state have repeatedly visited Russia to cooperate on "regional issues."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bennett extends Russia trip over Shabbat after ‘warm’ Putin talks run long
> 
> 
> First meeting between leaders seen as key in keeping Russia-Israel ties on track following departure of Netanyahu; talks said to have focused on Syria, Iran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's too bad them because Russia is definitely not selling anything, and it's not for a lack of interest on Iran's part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel and Russia coordinate arms sale preventing deals with Iran
> 
> 
> Ariel Bulshtein, adviser to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has announced that Israel has refused to sell weapons to Georgia, at Russia's request. He also stated a month and a half a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.middleeastmonitor.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, the J-31 is the ONLY option Iran has for a good 5th generation fighter.


Would China really compromise Pakistan's national security by selling more advanced weapons to Iran than Pakistan has?

From what China has said in the past, Pakistan is to China what Israel is to the USA.

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## Shotgunner51

BigMelatonin said:


> Isn't J-35 carrier based version of J-31?
> 
> As far as I know they have not approached China for any aircraft, rather as you said they keep going to Russia fruitlessly.


Nope, there's no J-31, only FC-31 as factory code of Shenyang AC or J-35 as military code. It's like FC-1, Super 7, these are factory codes, and became JF-17 when inducted by PAF.

Shenyang FC-31 (or J-35 after acceptance by PLAN) should be a CATOBAR-based project from day one. But of course testbeds and prototypes started flying from land-based air strips, not from any CATOBAR which is still under construction. There's no land-based variant up till this moment (PLAAF is heavy on J-10, no urgent need for another MMRCA), I guess we have to wait till J-35 gets IOC/FOC with PLAN and see how it goes.


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## tphuang

That Guy said:


> Would China really compromise Pakistan's national security by selling more advanced weapons to Iran than Pakistan has?
> 
> From what China has said in the past, Pakistan is to China what Israel is to the USA.


nobody is selling Iran anything.

China can get what it wants from Iran for a lot less than exporting FC-31.

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## FuturePAF

The J-35 once cleared for export, maybe an ideal platform for a new dedicated Air arm (long range fighters) of the Pakistan Navy.

India is looking to buy mistral class LHD, so building up the Pakistan Marines and a dedicated naval air arm should be prioritized.

In peacetime they can protect the SLOCs and guard the patrol aircraft in the EEZ and beyond.

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## That Guy

tphuang said:


> nobody is selling Iran anything.
> 
> China can get what it wants from Iran for a lot less than exporting FC-31.


That's exactly what I thought. Still, best to make sure I'm not wrong.


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## BigMelatonin

That Guy said:


> Would China really compromise Pakistan's national security by selling more advanced weapons to Iran than Pakistan has?
> 
> From what China has said in the past, Pakistan is to China what Israel is to the USA.


Pakistan will almost certainly get J-35 so they wouldn't be getting something more advanced.

Also conflict between Iran and Pakistan is very unlikely despite some attitudes on this forum.


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## Bleek

tphuang said:


> There aren't 150 in service right now. Probably 100 based on recent counting of serial numbers and units we know about. My guess the current production rate is around a 40 a year and on the way to 50 a year. This might go up higher in the coming years, but they will need to keep optimizing and improving production line.
> 
> It's a huge deal to be able to produce J-20 this quickly already.
> 
> All this is paper talk. F-22 has 50% availability rate. It could not even fly off the ground when a big hurricane struck one of its based in NC and ended up damaging a whole bunch of them. And it's only getting most costly to maintain and less available as we step further away from its production ending date. The USAF decision to stop F-22 production is turning out to be a a huge disaster.
> 
> We'd have to see what J-31 looks like to get a better understanding of its stealth and overall capabilities. It looks to be the best approximation of F-35 you can find with the exception of having 2 engines instead of 1. The T/W ratios are about the same. The configurations are very similar. Based on the prototypes, J-31 production quality looks close to J-20 and F-22 and below that of F-35. Stealth wise, it looks very similar to F-35 in shaping from front and sides. It definitely has more issue in the rear compared to F-35, although F-35 is also less stealthy from rear than F-22. Unless they can fix the rear and improve production quality, I would expect J-31 to be less stealthy than F-35, but still very stealthy from most angles. In terms of electronics, it should be very well designed to use passive and LPI active sensors like J-20 and F-35. So from most aspect, it's competitive with F-35, but theoretically worse in stealth. Depending on what J-31 is fighting with, that may or may not overcome those differences.
> 
> Keep in mind that J-31 should still eat 4th gen aircraft for lunch. There is a huge gap between aircraft with high level of stealth and modern situation awareness/networking vs those that don't. So in a battlefield, things like numbers, availability, endurance, cap time and supporting aircraft will matter a lot. J-31 does not need to take down too many F-35s to be victorious. It just needs to out last F-35s and take out a good chunk of non-stealthy aircraft like tankers, AWACs and 4th generation aircraft. It's far easier to take out F-35 when they return to their flight deck of air base for maintenance rather than taking them out while they are still flying. So when certain people say that J-20 or J-31 aren't as stealthy/capable as F-35, that really completely over looks other aircraft in the theater. 5th generation aircraft are larger threats to other aircraft than they are too each other.
> 
> For PAF, the best case scenario is if IAF ends up purchasing Su-57 as its "5th generation" aircraft. The worst case scenario is if IAF ends up purchasing F-35. With the former, PAF will have a pretty large qualitative advantage. With the latter, PAF will need a little more help from PLAAF in ways to counter.
> 
> By the way, land version of FC-31 will never be available for a while. I'm guessing at least 5 more years before land version of FC-31 join service, so earliest export will probably be in 2029 to 2030 range.


Nice analysis, it is fair without any bias. I think you deserve PDF think tank position.

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## FuturePAF

BigMelatonin said:


> Pakistan will almost certainly get J-35 so they wouldn't be getting something more advanced.
> 
> Also conflict between Iran and Pakistan is very unlikely despite some attitudes on this forum.


If Pakistan operates the J-35 in the future, especially, for the Navy, it would make interoperability with and maintenance for the PLAN carrier borne J-35, assigned to patrols in the Indian Ocean, easier. China may not be willing to put up a J-35 maintenance facility in Djibouti, but one in Pakistan would be more secure and subsidized by PAF’s own operations.

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## Readerdefence

Hi as expected j31/35 whatever designation it will be carrying this has to be operational or in service for PLANAF
when and where EMALS will be online with the Chinese navy accordingly 
as most of the Pakistani members should know PAF or PN doesn’t have the opportunity or budget to shape this plane accordingly to their need (as happened with J10c) so by virtue of timeline and when is it possible for China to bring this aircraft to there desire Pakistan navy or airforce will also have the chance to get this aircraft accordingly 
another factor is if Indians going for F35 soon hope not 
then PAF will be looking for it asap 
thank you


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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Deino.
> Iam looking at it slightly differently. I think it did not have support initially. So they went out seeking it in the guise of an export only version. They did not get any joy. Now that the PLAN has shown interest the history is being changed to "we always had support. It just got delayed". The sceptic in me sees a bit of spin doctoring. However, I fully agree that it is a more beautiful plane than the J20. Its size might make it more appealing to many buyers and it will find interest from buyers once it is fully developed.
> By the by do you have any inklings on this 3rd design that is based on J20 being offered for export to PAF. Help appreciated.
> A


Really is there any 3rd design then J20 and j31 for 5th gen ?


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Really is there any 3rd design then J20 and j31 for 5th gen ?


There has been chatter that the PLAAF has shown the PAF a third design of a stealth plane. What this design is and how it looks is anybody's guess. 
A

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> There has been chatter that the PLAAF has shown the PAF a third design of a stealth plane. What this design is and how it looks is anybody's guess.
> A


Ok mean possible option for AZM !, But now PAF selected TAI for JV instead of Chinese


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Ok mean possible option for AZM !, But now PAF selected TAI for JV instead of Chinese


Nothing is written in stone. All we can say is there has been close cooperation with TAI. No one at this moment in time knows what the scope of this cooperation is likely to be. We have roughly 8-10 years in which a lot will become clearer. We will most likely have subsidiary agreements which will depend on the progress various partners have made. One thing , which we can be sure of is that we will have a number of avenues we will concentrate on and depending on which one bears fruit directions will be determined. It is too early to say where these paths will lead to. All that can be said is PAC and TAI are in very close and regular contact. 
Where and what role the Chinese play in this whole game is not known. The goal posts have now changed and China is now looking at becoming one of the bastions of progress in the world. What that translates into from Pakistan's perspective is difficult to guess. We can become their backyard like the US- Canada equation, or we can be a more vibrant and dynamic relationship looking at emerging regional scenarios together. What is apparent is that we need to be independent and not looking at helping hands from here and there but indulge in partnerships on an equal basis. 
A

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Nothing is written in stone. All we can say is there has been close cooperation with TAI. No one at this moment in time knows what the scope of this cooperation is likely to be. We have roughly 8-10 years in which a lot will become clearer. We will most likely have subsidiary agreements which will depend on the progress various partners have made. One thing , which we can be sure of is that we will have a number of avenues we will concentrate on and depending on which one bears fruit directions will be determined. It is too early to say where these paths will lead to. All that can be said is PAC and TAI are in very close and regular contact.
> Where and what role the Chinese play in this whole game is not known. The goal posts have now changed and China is now looking at becoming one of the bastions of progress in the world. What that translates into from Pakistan's perspective is difficult to guess. We can become their backyard like the US- Canada equation, or we can be a more vibrant and dynamic relationship looking at emerging regional scenarios together. What is apparent is that we need to be independent and not looking at helping hands from here and there but indulge in partnerships on an equal basis.
> A


From current scenario its major partner will turkey and minor will be Pakistan, we have one advantage that is China, we add Chinese stuff in PAF variant as well


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> From current scenario its major partner will turkey and minor will be Pakistan, we have one advantage that is China, we add Chinese stuff in PAF variant as well


Look at all possibilities. Why would China-share its engines for an AC which will become its competitor? The engine however remains the weakest link of any Pak Turk project. Our Turk brothers say their cumulative experience wipl help them build an engine but that remains to be seen. If they flounder where do we get an engine from? Russia is a possibility. China could be( with prior reservations) EU and US unlikely. Minor subsystems can come from anywhere including China.
A

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## RealNapster

That Guy said:


> Would China really compromise Pakistan's national security by selling more advanced weapons to Iran than Pakistan has?
> 
> From what China has said in the past, Pakistan is to China what Israel is to the USA.



Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.



FuturePAF said:


> The J-35 once cleared for export, maybe an ideal platform for a new dedicated Air arm (long range fighters) of the Pakistan Navy.
> 
> India is looking to buy mistral class LHD, so building up the Pakistan Marines and a dedicated naval air arm should be prioritized.
> 
> In peacetime they can protect the SLOCs and guard the patrol aircraft in the EEZ and beyond.



We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.

Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.

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## Blueskiez 2001

RealNapster said:


> Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.
> 
> 
> 
> We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.
> 
> Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.



Sorry to say but not buying 5th generation because you will force the other part to buy one is an outdated thinking...


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## RealNapster

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Sorry to say but not buying 5th generation because you will force the other part to buy one is an outdated thinking...



Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.

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## Shotgunner51

RealNapster said:


> Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.


On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).


I don't think so. US spares are well known to be expensive. It is always the same trick used by those manufacturer who claim to sold u cheap second hand plane only to claim condition is no good and need plenty of maintenance or replacement of spare parts. This second hand plane has no guarantee , meaning you need to fork out more. Service interval is also more often. 

Instead of going thru these torment. Better switch to new platform and supplier who treat customer more reasonable and less restriction. New plane has years of guarantee and free servicing. Yes, u go thru the pain of handling all new stuff from operating to maintenance but worth getting with less money spend in the long run.

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## RealNapster

Shotgunner51 said:


> On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).



There was a deal for 8 F-16s which were initially meant to be paid from foreign military assistance aid. But when that was blocked then US asked Pakistan to pay something like $850+ million to purchase those 8 F-16s. This amount gives PAF 20 J-10Cs


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## That Guy

RealNapster said:


> Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.
> 
> 
> 
> We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.
> 
> Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.


It challenges Pakistan's supremacy over its western borders.

Also, I'm not one of those fools here that believes Iran is a friend towards Pakistan.

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## Shotgunner51

RealNapster said:


> There was a deal for 8 F-16s which were initially meant to be paid from foreign military assistance aid. But when that was blocked then US asked Pakistan to pay something like $850+ million to purchase those 8 F-16s. This amount gives PAF 20 J-10Cs


I guess that $850+ mil would include $699 mil for 8 jets plus associated items, but PAF personnel can put them into combat readiness immediately, no need to spend 2~3 years on training & tactics development, let alone avoiding the extra capital investment on MRO/training facilities, spare parts & weapon systems (A2A/A2G missiles, pods) which are not included in the fly-away cost of J-10C which is around $50 mil per unit. It's always economical to extend an already used fleet rather than inducting an entirely new system, and there are cheap used F-16 in the market like the $15 mil Danish F-16.

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## RealNapster

That Guy said:


> It challenges Pakistan's supremacy over its western borders.
> 
> Also, I'm not one of those fools here that believes Iran is a friend towards Pakistan.



Is Iran a friend or foe ? Debatable but in concerned thread.

Do Iranian weapon procurement (which don't even exist as we speak) threat Pakistan ? No. Because Iranians will he "catching up" for atleast 10 years from they day they start procurement of weapons from countries.



Shotgunner51 said:


> I guess that $850+ mil would include $699 mil for 8 jets plus associated items, but PAF personnel can put them into combat readiness immediately, no need to spend 2~3 years on training & tactics development, let alone avoiding the extra capital investment on MRO/training facilities, spare parts & weapon systems (A2A/A2G missiles, pods) which are not included in the fly-away cost of J-10C which is around $50 mil per unit. It's always economical to extend an already used fleet rather than inducting an entirely new system, and there are cheap used F-16 in the market like the $15 mil Danish F-16.



Extending fleet is favourable the current inventory life is not too much. Pakistan operate F-16s since 80s. We can not plan to have them around till 2050. J-10C offers that freedom. It's a fighter of 2017. It is meant to grow further. We will be seeing J-10 till atleast 2060. So it's better to built new inventory and tactics to serve future.

Btw Pakistan plan to start F-16 replacement post 2030.

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## Blueskiez 2001

RealNapster said:


> Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.



Maybe you´re right in that if India do not induct a 5th generation fighter then PAF will also not opt for one. Never the less it is still an outdated thinking - and I am convinced that PAF has evolved and has moved away form this form of planning. 

Just look at AZM, cooperation with TAI and so on....

And since development, induction, training, infrastructure, logistics, training of man power take time do you think that PAF will sit around and wait for India to induct a 5 generation fighter before PAF starts to plan of inducting...??? I am convinced they will NOT! Just look at PAF history and their problems in the 90 when they did not have BVR.....

And Pakistan will find resources when it comes to defending motherland....

I rest my case.

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## GriffinsRule

RealNapster said:


> Is Iran a friend or foe ? Debatable but in concerned thread.
> 
> Do Iranian weapon procurement (which don't even exist as we speak) threat Pakistan ? No. Because Iranians will he "catching up" for atleast 10 years from they day they start procurement of weapons from countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Extending fleet is favourable the current inventory life is not too much. Pakistan operate F-16s since 80s. We can not plan to have them around till 2050. J-10C offers that freedom. It's a fighter of 2017. It is meant to grow further. We will be seeing J-10 till atleast 2060. So it's better to built new inventory and tactics to serve future.
> 
> Btw Pakistan plan to start F-16 replacement post 2030.


PAF will be retiring Mirages by 2030s. F-16AM/BMs are to stay in PAF through the 50s at least


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## RealNapster

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF will be retiring Mirages by 2030s. F-16AM/BMs are to stay in PAF through the 50s at least



Not all of F-16s are modernised. We still operate majority of basic versions. Also, I said the retirement of F-16 will "start" in 2030s.


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## ziaulislam

FuturePAF said:


> If Pakistan operates the J-35 in the future, especially, for the Navy, it would make interoperability with and maintenance for the PLAN carrier borne J-35, assigned to patrols in the Indian Ocean, easier. China may not be willing to put up a J-35 maintenance facility in Djibouti, but one in Pakistan would be more secure and subsidized by PAF’s own operations.


Dont think navy will procure
Airforce has always been against navy procuring aircarfts and have calles it a waste



RealNapster said:


> Not all of F-16s are modernised. We still operate majority of basic versions. Also, I said the retirement of F-16 will "start" in 2030s.


The jordans one will have to be retired in 2030
The ABMs in 2040s at the latest

There is no way they can be pushed beyond these simply because we cant rebuild them like mirages

Now if we are given acess to used f16s and we are abale to rebuild them then sure but that will not happen


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## FuturePAF

ziaulislam said:


> Dont think navy will procure
> Airforce has always been against navy procuring aircarfts and have calles it a waste
> 
> 
> The jordans one will have to be retired in 2030
> The ABMs in 2040s at the latest
> 
> There is no way they can be pushed beyond these simply because we cant rebuild them like mirages
> 
> Now if we are given acess to used f16s and we are abale to rebuild them then sure but that will not happen



The Air Force may hold that view but the Navy would surely appreciate dedicated fighter coverage as it considers venturing further out to sea; to control the EEZ and the SLOCs. I guess it has to come down to if their is a shift in doctrine from a defensive navy to a more offensive navy.


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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Look at all possibilities. Why would China-share its engines for an AC which will become its competitor? The engine however remains the weakest link of any Pak Turk project. Our Turk brothers say their cumulative experience wipl help them build an engine but that remains to be seen. If they flounder where do we get an engine from? Russia is a possibility. China could be( with prior reservations) EU and US unlikely. Minor subsystems can come from anywhere including China.
> A


TAI is very close to finalize deal with RR for local assembly of engines, Russian and Chinese will be backup plan

Regarding Chinese they have multiple engine programs in process so they will happily try to earn from any engine that will less then there best for export markets like American



araz said:


> Look at all possibilities. Why would China-share its engines for an AC which will become its competitor? The engine however remains the weakest link of any Pak Turk project. Our Turk brothers say their cumulative experience wipl help them build an engine but that remains to be seen. If they flounder where do we get an engine from? Russia is a possibility. China could be( with prior reservations) EU and US unlikely. Minor subsystems can come from anywhere including China.
> A


TAI is very close to finalize deal with RR for local assembly of engines, Russian and Chinese will be backup plan

Regarding Chinese they have multiple engine programs in process so they will happily try to earn from any engine that will less then there best for export markets like American


FuturePAF said:


> The Air Force may hold that view but the Navy would surely appreciate dedicated fighter coverage as it considers venturing further out to sea; to control the EEZ and the SLOCs. I guess it has to come down to if their is a shift in doctrine from a defensive navy to a more offensive navy.


Navy or PAF what ever finance, there is higher chance of limited J31 induction post 2025 as AZM or even TFX will take atleast decade to be materials


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## The SC

Chinese J-35 stealth fighters spotted on aircraft carriers

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## Zhukov

The SC said:


> Chinese J-35 stealth fighters spotted on aircraft carriers
> 
> View attachment 837683


you mean J-31


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## Scorpiooo

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> you mean J-31


Now is designated as J35 for naval variant


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## Luosifen

The SC said:


> Chinese J-35 stealth fighters spotted on aircraft carriers
> 
> View attachment 837683


That's a training facility on land, not a carrier.

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## The SC

Luosifen said:


> That's a training facility on land, not a carrier.
> View attachment 837685


Training to be on a carrier.. isn't it?


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## Luosifen

The SC said:


> Training to be on a carrier.. isn't it?


Yes, the original description was just worded poorly, that's all. No offense meant


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## Akasa

The SC said:


> Training to be on a carrier.. isn't it?



Your original post incorrectly states that the jets were photographed on a carrier and subsequent response is to refute that.

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## White and Green with M/S

The SC said:


> Training to be on a carrier.. isn't it?


No, This picture shows FC-31/J-35s are on land not on carrier


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## siegecrossbow

The SC said:


> Chinese J-35 stealth fighters spotted on aircraft carriers
> 
> View attachment 837683



Not aircraft carrier. Testing facility on land.


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## Deino

The SC said:


> Chinese J-35 stealth fighters spotted on aircraft carriers
> 
> View attachment 837683




*No*, most likely two mock ups for handling trials were noted at the NAS Huangdicun, *NOT *on an aircraft carrier!


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## python-000

its means that J-35 progressing very fast & on the Right track & there are 2 different J-35 1 for Air Force & 1 for Navy...


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## Readerdefence

Hi by getting pictures of j31/35 by china it looks like as usual Pakistan requested BB to mature the technology of medium weight stealth which can be exported to PAF or PN
for their role in Pakistani hierarchy 
as being posted before Pakistan can’t not or don’t have resources to put up money towards these technologies that’s why one has to wait certain time limit in case of J10c
& then request for exporting towards Pakistan from China 
another catch in it is as Chinese Navy not in a hurry to develop J31/35 as compared to J20 that’s why pakistan also have to wait accordingly but now as more Chinese ACC coming online so finger crossed will see these soon within Pakistani borders 
thank you


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> its means that J-35 progressing very fast & on the Right track & there are 2 different J-35 1 for Air Force & 1 for Navy...




Pardon, we are sure there is one prototype flying and we have seen two mock-ups (most likely) at Huangdicun and NO land-based prototype. So please explain, why you think there are „are 2 different J-35 1 for Air Force & 1 for Navy.“!?

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## python-000

Deino said:


> Pardon, we are sure there is one prototype flying and we have seen two mock-ups (most likely) at Huangdicun and NO land-based prototype. So please explain, why you think there are „are 2 different J-35 1 for Air Force & 1 for Navy.“!?








Two different j-35 for 2 different roles...


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## White and Green with M/S

python-000 said:


> View attachment 840968
> 
> Two different j-35 for 2 different roles...


no just no its older prototype pf J-31 which is no more and converted into J-35


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> View attachment 840968
> 
> Two different j-35 for 2 different roles...




Come on … that is well known that the yellow one is the original second flying demonstrator and the green one is the first true prototype. 

It would be as if you take the original YF-17 Cobra and a recent F/A-18E as proof there would be also a second project for the Air Force, which in fact was one, but was won by the F-16.


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## johncliu88

Just my wild thought. If Pakistan buys some of the J-31/35 5th gen planes, how will our neighbor respond? Buy F-35 from US, or continue to work on the AMCA project? Or just simply pay Russia to speed up the SU-75 Checkmate?


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## SaadH

Chinese have probably told Bajwa to go buy F-35s instead from his biggest trade partner...


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## Abid123

SaadH said:


> Chinese have probably told Bajwa to go buy F-35s instead from his biggest trade partner...


The yankees are never going to sell F-35 to Pakistan.


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## Princeps Senatus

johncliu88 said:


> Just my wild thought. If Pakistan buys some of the J-31/35 5th gen planes, how will our neighbor respond? Buy F-35 from US, or continue to work on the AMCA project? Or just simply pay Russia to speed up the SU-75 Checkmate?


They would put themselves under the delusion that their Rafale is better than the J-35 until the AMCA arrives (which they would accelerate work on perhaps with foreign help) 

F-35 is extremely unlikely i think it's more likely the US helps them with AMCA 

Su-75 died a premature death and Russians are unable to produce enough 5th gen for themselves let alone for foreign countries so that isn't a option either


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## Abid123

Pakistan would need 150 J-31s to keep a strategic balance in the region.

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## MajesticPug

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan would need 150 J-31s to keep a strategic balance in the region.


Given the Pak government and military are closely aligned with the US, I don't think China wants to sell its latest techs to the Pak. It's a tough choice but I'm sure Pakistanis in general understand. The current J10C's are enough to balance whatever India has. J10C's have a lot of 5th-gen techs and will be able to guard Pakistan's airspace in the next decade or longer. J31 or J35's will be naval version that Pakistan can't use.


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## 帅的一匹

MajesticPug said:


> Given the Pak government and military are closely aligned with the US, I don't think China wants to sell its latest techs to the Pak. It's a tough choice but I'm sure Pakistanis in general understand. The current J10C's are enough to balance whatever India has. J10C's have a lot of 5th-gen techs and will be able to guard Pakistan's airspace in the next decade or longer. J31 or J35's will be naval version that Pakistan can't use.


Our relationship with Pakistan is somehow established on the relationship with their military more than government. As long as India is there , the relationship between the two country won’t derail.

No matter Imran Khan or sharif family n charge , Pakistan is good with China.


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## Deino

Abid123 said:


> The yankees are never going to sell F-35 to Pakistan.




But also NEVER To India

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> But also NEVER To India


Why

I mean if China sell J35 or J20 to Pakistan, what s other choice left for India to make a counter move


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## Luosifen

Deino said:


> But also NEVER To India


I wouldn't say never, when China and the USA move on to 6th gen fighters the F-35s wouldn't be top of the line anymore and make a good item to offload for some cash. That and the USA would love to bind India down with all its strings-attached operational conditions while trying to kill off AMCA as a potential export competitor.


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## MajesticPug

帅的一匹 said:


> Our relationship with Pakistan is somehow established on the relationship with their military more than government. As long as India is there , the relationship between the two country won’t derail.
> 
> No matter Imran Khan or sharif family n charge , Pakistan is good with China.



Nothing changed with the relationship. But there's no need, not a great idea given the threat posted by Pakistan's '_friend/partner_' America, to sell 5th-gen fighter jets to Pakistan unless Pakistan's existence is threatened. I'm sure the Americans feel the same way about selling sensitive weapons to Pakistan.



帅的一匹 said:


> Why
> 
> I mean if China sell J35 or J20 to Pakistan, what s other choice left for India to make a counter move



You got to be kidding? China will not sell Pakistan J35's unless Pakistan is threatened. As far as I can see, India will not get F35's in 10-15 years or until 6th-gen jets are in service.


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## Deino

帅的一匹 said:


> Why
> 
> I mean if China sell J35 or J20 to Pakistan, what s other choice left for India to make a counter move




My point is - and all analysts I spoke with agree - that as long as India has ANY Russian system in service, that also has regular "contact" with either Russians or requires a coordination with US systems like anything for joint, the US won't sell the F-35.


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## Beast

johncliu88 said:


> Just my wild thought. If Pakistan buys some of the J-31/35 5th gen planes, how will our neighbor respond? Buy F-35 from US, or continue to work on the AMCA project? Or just simply pay Russia to speed up the SU-75 Checkmate?


J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.


J35 is our top notch technology, we will think carefully before we sell it.



Deino said:


> My point is - and all analysts I spoke with agree - that as long as India has ANY Russian system in service, that also has regular "contact" with either Russians or requires a coordination with US systems like anything for joint, the US won't sell the F-35.


My perception is that India won’t go for F35 even it is offered by the states.

If China offers J35 to Pakistan , It will drive India nuts.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.


Not pro US exactly, but try to keep a balance between two giants like used to be, and make most benefits out of it.

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## _NOBODY_

Beast said:


> J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.


China has Pakistan's balls in its hand and it can very easily twist them, Pakistan can never go against China even if it wanted to. Pakistan depends too heavily on China.


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## 帅的一匹

_NOBODY_ said:


> China has Pakistan's balls in its hand and it can very easily twist them, Pakistan can never go against China even if it wanted to. Pakistan depends too heavily on China.


Quite the opposite, Actually your balls is in US hands right now. Yankees twist it and IK is kicked out.

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## chinasun

_NOBODY_ said:


> China has Pakistan's balls in its hand and it can very easily twist them, Pakistan can never go against China even if it wanted to. Pakistan depends too heavily on China.








J35 appeared at the air show, indicating that it can be sold. If Pakistan buys fifth-generation aircraft, India will also buy Russian fifth-generation aircraft or F35. An arms race is bad for both sides. Pakistan just wants to keep the balance, and the funds for economic development are limited.
Whoever becomes prime minister must first safeguard Pakistan's national interests. There is no simple definition of being pro-American or pro-China. Of course, ik is clean, focusing on Pakistan's long-term interests and improving Pakistan's development potential. China admires it.

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## python-000

_NOBODY_ said:


> China has Pakistan's balls in its hand and it can very easily twist them, Pakistan can never go against China even if it wanted to. Pakistan depends too heavily on China.


PAKISTAN & PAKISTANIS Love & Respect China's friendship & brotherhood if China give us J-35 or not it dosent matter Pakistan always be with China...

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## Abid123

@Princeps Senatus 
What's so funny?


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## _NOBODY_

帅的一匹 said:


> Quite the opposite, Actually your balls is in US hands right now. Yankees twist it and IK is kicked out.


Yankees can only influence Pakistan to a certain extent, Pakistan can survive without the Yankees but Pakistan will crumble without China. Plus the Yanks know their limits, as long they are unable to offer Pakistan something equivalent to CPEC they can never harm Pakistan's relationship with China. Also what makes you think that the current government is anti-China?

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## 帅的一匹

_NOBODY_ said:


> Yankees can only influence Pakistan to a certain extent, Pakistan can survive without the Yankees but Pakistan will crumble without China. Plus the Yanks know their limits, as long they are unable to offer Pakistan something equivalent to CPEC they can never harm Pakistan's relationship with China. Also what makes you think that the current government is anti-China?


I’m not saying current government is anti China because they wanna build relationship with USA.


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## Princeps Senatus

Abid123 said:


> @Princeps Senatus
> What's so funny?


Sir we cannot afford 150 J-35s. We had around 100 F-86s and now we have around 80 F-16s.

If we were to acquire J-35s it would be foolish to acquire more than 50.


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## Abid123

MajesticPug said:


> J31 or J35's will be naval version that Pakistan can't use.


Is there not a land based version?


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## python-000

Abid123 said:


> Is there not a land based version?


No but one that makes a land based version Samosa jet it can fullfil your raquirements...




With jet fighter truck well come comeletly free hurry up offer is limited...

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## Readerdefence

Abid123 said:


> Is there not a land based version?


Hi just a little modification and it’s a land based jet nothing special like F18 sold to Canada & even Kuwait which are land based 
thank you

Hi i can’t understand why Chinese members all of a sudden think that j/31/35 is not for sale it’s not ,China top of the notch stealth like J20 
USA too develop F35 instead of exporting F22 as their congress has put a ban at that time not to export F22 even to near & dear ally of USA which is Israel 
so better not to be paranoid & if and when j31/35 ready for export and probably as long as China open a credit line like J10s Pakistan can get these why to bother and poke in neighbouring big budget buyer until unless they will get something or about to get something 
another thing about j31/35 is it’s some5hing a alternate to F35 for countries with chink of money but won’t be able to get F35 due to one or the other reason 
thank you


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## tphuang

Deino said:


> My point is - and all analysts I spoke with agree - that as long as India has ANY Russian system in service, that also has regular "contact" with either Russians or requires a coordination with US systems like anything for joint, the US won't sell the F-35.


This should be such a basic and obvious point. Us will never sell it's top secret stuff to India. I am really amazed that people don't get it.

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## Sayfullah

Beast said:


> J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.





帅的一匹 said:


> Quite the opposite, Actually your balls is in US hands right now. Yankees twist it and IK is kicked out.


I don’t mean any disrespect to our Chinese friends but, you shouldn’t comment on our internal situation because it’s too complicated for an outsider to understand. I am pro imran khan and pro pro however, let’s not forget it was ppp which started cpec and pmln also worked heavily on cpec and worked well with Chinese. Pakistan China ties are unbreakable and unshakeable no matter what government is in power. Imran Khan wasn’t ousted because of Pakistan China relations rather because of US disapproval of our growing relations with Russia and is going against them. Usa knows whatever happens Pakistan China relations can’t be broken so it has basically accepted that. Our ties started getting strong when Zia Ul Haq was president of Pakistan and in Pakistans history we haven’t had a leader who was closer to usa then Zia Ul Haq yet he was close to China and basically cemented our ties with China while also envisioning a future cpec type project. 
Rn the parties which are in power, pmln and ppp, they have ruled Pakistan for decades and in those decades Pakistan China relations have hit new highs. Pakistans military even the most pro usa are still pro China. Our pro usa types are different as in they aren’t anti China rather they want close relations with usa plus China. Joining cpec already put us in Chinese camp but these pro usa elements want Pakistan to have strong ties with usa especially in counter “terrorism” while anti usa see that as too much us influence. Strong ties with China is default for every government and army chief in Pakistan. This is evident because of the growing relations between Pakistan and China and, in the past 50 years even, Pakistan China relations have only grown never went down under all parties and establishments. This recent things is more to do with Pakistan on Ukraine issue and Pakistan on Afghanistan issue. So please stop commenting on Pakistani internal politics because it’s not as black and white as it seems. Rest reassured Pakistan China relations will always be strong and only get stronger. 



帅的一匹 said:


> Quite the opposite, Actually your balls is in US hands right now. Yankees twist it and IK is kicked out.


Our balls aren’t in anyone’s hands. IK getting kicked out had nothing to do with our relations with China. USA knows Pakistan China relations is unshakable so it doesn’t bother with it. USA changed our government because of our other policies like on Iran on Taliban on Russia and on Islamphobia. 
If Pakistan China ties can grow under Ayub Khan who built Karakoram Highway, under Zia Ul Haq who involved China in soviet war, under Musharraf who made deals with Chinese companies for investments especially their energy companies, under Zardari who started cpec and under Nawaz, than it shows our ties are i breakable and unshakeable. I on purpose mentioned those names of those leaders because they were seen as US stooges in Pakistan but even under this US stooges our relations with China have only went to the next level. 
As I’ve said, good relations with China is the default for every leader every establishment in Pakistan.

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## 帅的一匹

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> I don’t mean any disrespect to our Chinese friends but, you shouldn’t comment on our internal situation because it’s too complicated for an outsider to understand. I am pro imran khan and pro pro however, let’s not forget it was ppp which started cpec and pmln also worked heavily on cpec and worked well with Chinese. Pakistan China ties are unbreakable and unshakeable no matter what government is in power. Imran Khan wasn’t ousted because of Pakistan China relations rather because of US disapproval of our growing relations with Russia and is going against them. Usa knows whatever happens Pakistan China relations can’t be broken so it has basically accepted that. Our ties started getting strong when Zia Ul Haq was president of Pakistan and in Pakistans history we haven’t had a leader who was closer to usa then Zia Ul Haq yet he was close to China and basically cemented our ties with China while also envisioning a future cpec type project.
> Rn the parties which are in power, pmln and ppp, they have ruled Pakistan for decades and in those decades Pakistan China relations have hit new highs. Pakistans military even the most pro usa are still pro China. Our pro usa types are different as in they aren’t anti China rather they want close relations with usa plus China. Joining cpec already put us in Chinese camp but these pro usa elements want Pakistan to have strong ties with usa especially in counter “terrorism” while anti usa see that as too much us influence. Strong ties with China is default for every government and army chief in Pakistan. This is evident because of the growing relations between Pakistan and China and, in the past 50 years even, Pakistan China relations have only grown never went down under all parties and establishments. This recent things is more to do with Pakistan on Ukraine issue and Pakistan on Afghanistan issue. So please stop commenting on Pakistani internal politics because it’s not as black and white as it seems. Rest reassured Pakistan China relations will always be strong and only get stronger.
> 
> 
> Our balls aren’t in anyone’s hands. IK getting kicked out had nothing to do with our relations with China. USA knows Pakistan China relations is unshakable so it doesn’t bother with it. USA changed our government because of our other policies like on Iran on Taliban on Russia and on Islamphobia.
> If Pakistan China ties can grow under Ayub Khan who built Karakoram Highway, under Zia Ul Haq who involved China in soviet war, under Musharraf who made deals with Chinese companies for investments especially their energy companies, under Zardari who started cpec and under Nawaz, than it shows our ties are i breakable and unshakeable. I on purpose mentioned those names of those leaders because they were seen as US stooges in Pakistan but even under this US stooges our relations with China have only went to the next level.
> As I’ve said, good relations with China is the default for every leader every establishment in Pakistan.


We are just ordinary people discussing, and can’t influence China foreign policy, we just stated what we think.

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## Sayfullah

帅的一匹 said:


> We are just ordinary people discussing, and can’t influence China foreign policy, we just stated what we think.


True but the general public shouldn’t get a negative view on us just because of our recent internal situation. I respect your opinion but my point is the stuff going on in Pakistan rn isn’t as black and white as it seems. Chinese plan long term and China is a very smart country. They surely know what their doing when it comes to Pakistan and, surely if they seen it fit not to interfere in internal politics of a country where their almost $70 billion investments is, that means they approve or are uneffected by the current situation in Pakistan. 
I just don’t want Chinese public to get a negative image of Pakistan based on this because us Pakistanis often witness this political chaos it isn’t new to us. And Chinese have witnessed it happen many times in Pakistan since our relations first began. 
So everything will be alright.

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## MastanKhan

python-000 said:


> No but one that makes a land based version Samosa jet it can fullfil your raquirements...
> View attachment 841438
> 
> With jet fighter truck well come comeletly free hurry up offer is limited...



Hi,

This display is a DECEPTION to make pakistanis not see the real threat---.

Indians are not stupid to display this aircraft on a trailer bed.


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## IblinI

Abid123 said:


> Is there not a land based version?


The airforce version can be seen this year.


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## Beast

帅的一匹 said:


> We are just ordinary people discussing, and can’t influence China foreign policy, we just stated what we think.


Global times editor Hu Xijin surf this forum. I can assure you. They do collect some opinion and info from here to conclude some foreign policy. Some CPC high level members do seek opinion from these influential foreign affairs editor for advise.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Global times editor Hu Xijin surf this forum. I can assure you. They do collect some opinion and info from here to conclude some foreign policy. Some CPC high level members do seek opinion from these influential foreign affairs editor for advise.


Wow, is PDF that famous


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## Beast

帅的一匹 said:


> Wow, is PDF that famous


There are already few Chinese video and analysis talking about opinion from PDF although it didn't openly mention it. But PDF is banned in China. Still it a venue to collect opinion and analysis for foreign policy due to its diverse members.

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## Abid123

Deino said:


> But also NEVER To India


We cant say that for sure. But the chances are low. You are right.


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## credence

Beast said:


> J-35 will not be sold to Pakistan. Their management is now pro US but they will still not get F-35 due to lobby by India.


I don't think it's right for you to post such unfriendly comments here. Looks like you don't even know the basics of history and politics. Pak-China relation is the result of geo-politics. It has been developing for more than half a century via wars and hardships. Definitely it's unshakable.
J35 must be ready on the shelf for Pak. I totally believe that talks are under way between the two governments. No news will be leaked to the public until the day that those birds fly to Pak.

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## waz

帅的一匹 said:


> Wow, is PDF that famous



Yes it is we are one of the most visited sites in the world, and the most busiest defence site by way of visits and web traffic.
We have them all here from intelligence agencies the world over, to high ranking military staff, to simple fans, the world's press, the 'axis of evil' folks , the 'free world' folks you name it. 
They all converge here.

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## Falconless

Beast said:


> Global times editor Hu Xijin surf this forum.


Bhai itna wela hai?


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## JX-1

I thought your profile picture was your pet cat. Now that I look closely I realised it's a big cat...


waz said:


> Yes it is we are one of the most visited sites in the world, and the most busiest defence site by way of visits and web traffic.
> We have them all here from intelligence agencies the world over, to high ranking military staff, to simple fans, the world's press, the 'axis of evil' folks , the 'free world' folks you name it.
> They all converge here.

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## waz

JX-1 said:


> I thought your profile picture was your pet cat. Now that I look closely I realised it's a big cat...



Big cat of Pakistan and the Himalayas. The snowy legend…

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## Abid123

Princeps Senatus said:


> Sir we cannot afford 150 J-35s. We had around 100 F-86s and now we have around 80 F-16s.
> 
> If we were to acquire J-35s it would be foolish to acquire more than 50.


I understand what you are trying to say. Looking at the our current situation we cannot afford it. 

The thing is that we are most likely going to consider the J-35 at the end of this decade. That is a long time. We can easily get our economy back on track by that time. 

"We had around 100 F-86s and now we have around 80 F-16s".

With all due respect sir the F-16 example is a poor one. We have 50+ F-16 on order which were never delivered. PAF had originally planned on having 150 F-16 if not for the arms embargo. We would be amongst the largest foreign F-16 operators along side Egypt, Turkey and Israel.

"If we were to acquire J-35s it would be foolish to acquire more than 50". 

Only 50 5th generation for a air force the size of PAF? In any case the minimum number should be 100. 150 is the number for PAF needed to neutralize Indian air superiority. 

The J-35 is expected to have a unit price of around 80 million USD. So 80x150= 12 billion USD. Spread that over a 10 year plan. If made a priority by the Pakistan armed forces it should not be a problem.

@Zarvan What do you think. How many units of the J-35 should the PAF induct?

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## Zarvan

Abid123 said:


> I understand what you are trying to say. Looking at the our current situation we cannot afford it.
> 
> The thing is that we are most likely going to consider the J-35 at the end of this decade. That is a long time. We can easily get our economy back on track by that time.
> 
> "We had around 100 F-86s and now we have around 80 F-16s".
> 
> With all due respect sir the F-16 example is a poor one. We have 50+ F-16 on order which were never delivered. PAF had originally planned on having 150 F-16 if not for the arms embargo. We would be amongst the largest foreign F-16 operators along side Egypt, Turkey and Israel.
> 
> "If we were to acquire J-35s it would be foolish to acquire more than 50".
> 
> Only 50 5th generation for a air force the size of PAF? In any case the minimum number should be 100. 150 is the number for PAF needed to neutralize Indian air superiority.
> 
> The J-35 is expected to have a unit price of around 80 million USD. So 80x150= 12 billion USD. Spread that over a 10 year plan. If made a priority by the Pakistan armed forces it should not be a problem.
> 
> @Zarvan What do you think. How many units of the J-35 should the PAF induct?


You are worrying about J-35 you should also know we are also now partners in TFX project of Turkey. I have always maintained this that eventually we would have two types of 5th Generation Fighter jets at least. One from China and one from Turkey and we have only 80 F16 because US doesn't let us buy more. It's not that we want to remain limited to 80. US decides to give us 100 more F-16 BLOCK 72 without any stupid conditions trust me we would make the deal in no time.

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## python-000




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## Abid123

python-000 said:


>


Good replacement for our F-16s.


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## Syntage

Abid123 said:


> Good replacement for our F-16s.


Well, it feels good to think like that but we won't buy any 5th Gen aircraft until India does. Its been the history and strategy of folks in big offices.

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## Abid123

Syntage said:


> Well, it feels good to think like that but we won't buy any 5th Gen aircraft until India does. Its been the history and strategy of folks in big offices.


Makes sense. We can't compete with Indian air force in a arms race. India will probably induct 5th generation in the early 2030s.

We should get our economy back on track by that time. Have a functioning tax revenue system. So we could order and maintain a large number of them. 150 minimum.

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## Ali_Baba

Abid123 said:


> Good replacement for our F-16s.



I do think PAF is looking towards both the TFX and J-3(X?)' s to replace the F16s. Do note the J-35 is the Naval version, there is no airforce derivative of the J-35 yet ..

The Turks are doing interesting things with their UCAVs/UAVs/EW systems and Turkey will supply the "absolute best" it has to Pakistan - there seems to be far fewer hangups about what Turkieye is prepared to sell to Pakistan.. China has always been relucant to give its "absolute" best - it only seems to sell systems 1 or 2 tiers below their absolute best that is given to their own services...

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## Abid123

Ali_Baba said:


> I do think PAF is looking towards both the TFX and J-3(X?)' s to replace the F16s. Do note the J-35 is the Naval version, there is no airforce derivative of the J-35 yet ..


You are right. We are most likely going to induct two 5th generation fighters the TFX and J-35/J-31. 

I am a little confused. Is the J-31/J-35 not the same prototype? Because China will make a land based 5th generation aimed at the export market.





__





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com


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## credence

Ali_Baba said:


> I do think PAF is looking towards both the TFX and J-3(X?)' s to replace the F16s. Do note the J-35 is the Naval version, there is no airforce derivative of the J-35 yet ..
> 
> The Turks are doing interesting things with their UCAVs/UAVs/EW systems and Turkey will supply the "absolute best" it has to Pakistan - there seems to be far fewer hangups about what Turkieye is prepared to sell to Pakistan.. China has always been relucant to give its "absolute" best - it only seems to sell systems 1 or 2 tiers below their absolute best that is given to their own services...


Not always this case. for example, VT-4 tank is much better than PLA best tank Type-99 , and J10CP is better PLA J10C.

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## credence

Abid123 said:


> You are right. We are most likely going to induct two 5th generation fighters the TFX and J-35/J-31.
> 
> I am a little confused. Is the J-31/J-35 not the same prototype? Because China will make a land based 5th generation aimed at the export market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com


different variants of the same prototypes, parts can be shared.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

CGI of the Chinese Underdevelopment J35

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## Horse_Rider

Readerdefence said:


> Hi i can’t understand why Chinese members all of a sudden think that j/31/35 is not for sale it’s not ,China top of the notch stealth like J20
> USA too develop F35 instead of exporting F22 as their congress has put a ban at that time not to export F22 even to near & dear ally of USA which is Israel



Is buying J-31 making more sense? I have an alternative proposal and wanted to gauge interest / check logic here from senior members. Would it make sense to acquire J-10CE production line and build 100-150 jets under the brand of JF-17 block 4 with delta wings? (speaking long term here, not next year). The same line can later be used for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild and stealthy options from J-31 can start to be introduced to build expertise and industry on certain components and tech.

The same production line can later be enhanced to produce a stealthy version of the 5th gen J-10-JXX when we get to that stage by rebranding project AZM using J-31 or J-20's tech. This would save a lot of national expenditure and we'd have in-house capacity for building / maintaining our fleet of our top line jets.

Thoughts?


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## MastanKhan

Horse_Rider said:


> Is buying J-31 making more sense? I have an alternative proposal and wanted to gauge interest / check logic here from senior members. Would it make sense to acquire J-10CE production line and build 100-150 jets under the brand of JF-17 block 4 with delta wings? (speaking long term here, not next year). The same line can later be used for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild and stealthy options from J-31 can start to be introduced to build expertise and industry on certain components and tech.
> 
> The same production line can later be enhanced to produce a stealthy version of the 5th gen J-10-JXX when we get to that stage by rebranding project AZM using J-31 or J-20's tech. This would save a lot of national expenditure and we'd have in-house capacity for building / maintaining our fleet of our top line jets.
> 
> Thoughts?


Hi,

That is f-'d up---

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## Horse_Rider

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is f-'d up---



Care to go beyond "f-d up"? and help provide some details? I've read some of your posts lately. I don't know how much you know about setting up a manufacturing line, tech buildout for such applications, cost and localization / industry aspects of things as well as national expenditure being a country like Pakistan. Keep in mind, we now build majority of the JF-17 ourselves so aircrafts and tech aren't new to Pakistan anymore.


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## applesauce

Horse_Rider said:


> Is buying J-31 making more sense? I have an alternative proposal and wanted to gauge interest / check logic here from senior members. Would it make sense to acquire J-10CE production line and build 100-150 jets under the brand of JF-17 block 4 with delta wings? (speaking long term here, not next year). The same line can later be used for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild and stealthy options from J-31 can start to be introduced to build expertise and industry on certain components and tech.
> 
> The same production line can later be enhanced to produce a stealthy version of the 5th gen J-10-JXX when we get to that stage by rebranding project AZM using J-31 or J-20's tech. This would save a lot of national expenditure and we'd have in-house capacity for building / maintaining our fleet of our top line jets.
> 
> Thoughts?



???? why would you call a j-10 line, jf-17 block 4???? those are entirely different planes

inducting a line isnt impossible or anything, just weird you would call it that.

and you cant just use the same line to make stuff for an entirely different jet.

and no, you are not "enhancing" a j-10 line to make 5th gen later, it would be a new line

lastly this would cost a boat load of money that pakistan does not have, and no china isn't going to gift you j-20 tech or j-35 line.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horse_Rider said:


> Is buying J-31 making more sense? I have an alternative proposal and wanted to gauge interest / check logic here from senior members. Would it make sense to acquire J-10CE production line and build 100-150 jets under the brand of JF-17 block 4 with delta wings? (speaking long term here, not next year). The same line can later be used for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild and stealthy options from J-31 can start to be introduced to build expertise and industry on certain components and tech.
> 
> The same production line can later be enhanced to produce a stealthy version of the 5th gen J-10-JXX when we get to that stage by rebranding project AZM using J-31 or J-20's tech. This would save a lot of national expenditure and we'd have in-house capacity for building / maintaining our fleet of our top line jets.
> 
> Thoughts?


Through the 2020s, the PAF will keep buying J-10CEs and JF-17 Block-3s. The PAF will buy J-10CEs off-the-shelf in small or incremental batches (similar to the PAF's Mirage III/5 acquisition in the 1970s). The PAF doesn't buy a new fighter unless it's planning to commit to at least 90 units. So, by the 2030s, the PAF could have around 90 J-10CEs. As for the JF-17 Block-3, the PAF's procurement run would depend on export demand and if it wants to upgrade the Block-I/IIs, or simply replace them with Block-3s. So, the Block-3 run could be anywhere from 30 to 150 units. 

The NGFA will start becoming a serious topic closer to the 2030s, especially as the older F-16A/Bs start nearing the end of their OEM-defined lifecycles. By this point, the PAF could possibly take a more traditional offset approach. So, instead of asking for ToT, the PAF would buy some fighters (again, 90+ in total), but request the OEM re-invest in Pakistan, ideally by sourcing some of the fighter's supply from Pakistan. In that respect, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) already has a little bit of a head start via its local office in Pakistan.

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## MastanKhan

Horse_Rider said:


> Care to go beyond "f-d up"? and help provide some details? I've read some of your posts lately. I don't know how much you know about setting up a manufacturing line, tech buildout for such applications, cost and localization / industry aspects of things as well as national expenditure being a country like Pakistan. Keep in mind, we now build majority of the JF-17 ourselves so aircrafts and tech aren't new to Pakistan anymore.


Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

We are just a little child in aircraft manufacture

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## python-000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Through the 2020s, the PAF will keep buying J-10CEs and JF-17 Block-3s. The PAF will buy J-10CEs off-the-shelf in small or incremental batches (similar to the PAF's Mirage III/5 acquisition in the 1970s). The PAF doesn't buy a new fighter unless it's planning to commit to at least 90 units. So, by the 2030s, the PAF could have around 90 J-10CEs. As for the JF-17 Block-3, the PAF's procurement run would depend on export demand and if it wants to upgrade the Block-I/IIs, or simply replace them with Block-3s. So, the Block-3 run could be anywhere from 30 to 150 units.
> 
> The NGFA will start becoming a serious topic closer to the 2030s, especially as the older F-16A/Bs start nearing the end of their OEM-defined lifecycles. By this point, the PAF could possibly take a more traditional offset approach. So, instead of asking for ToT, the PAF would buy some fighters (again, 90+ in total), but request the OEM re-invest in Pakistan, ideally by sourcing some of the fighter's supply from Pakistan. In that respect, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) already has a little bit of a head start via its local office in Pakistan.


In my opinion J-35 Is the Best option for PAF without any western string attached...


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## araz

python-000 said:


> In my opinion J-35 Is the Best option for PAF without any western string attached...


PAF has been stung badly by the JFT saga. It will not buy any plane that has not been inducted in PLAAF. J35 is likely to be a carrier based fighter. If you look at the life cycle of PAF's interest in J10. It took from 2007-8 to 2021 for PAF to move towards a platform. In the process the J10 matured and underwent 3 iterations before PAF chose it. It will likely take 7-10years of a land version of J35/31 for PAF to show interest in it. It will however keep a very close eye on things.
The TFX is another platformPAF seems interested in and is more likely to go for provided Turkiye has independence on engine manufacturing and selling without any interruptions/ interventions. Closer to the time(2030-35) PAF will compare both the platforms against its requirements and decide. There maybe other factors in the acquisitions ie offsets, local component manufacturing, limited TOT, Local servicing and depot maintenance, generous loan terms amongst other things. I dont see a 5th generation offering in the subcontinent till the mid to late 30s. However with the level and speed of advancements who knows!!.
A

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## Ali_Baba

araz said:


> PAF has been stung badly by the JFT saga. It will not buy any plane that has not been inducted in PLAAF



Absolutely agree on this - China was meant to purchase as many JF17s as Pakistan was meant to. When China pulled out of the programme from a procurement persepective - it fell on Pakistan to fund the completion of Block I, and pay for Block II / III's itself. There was no sharing of development costs which was part of the original business case for the JF17 !!! This funding of the development programme "soaked" up money that could have been used to perform more units of the JF17 - hence why the procurement of the JF17 felt so glacial for so long.

This has for sure left a sour taste in PAF's mouth as far as future development programmes go and how they will be structured.



araz said:


> . J35 is likely to be a carrier based fighter. If you look at the life cycle of PAF's interest in J10. It took from 2007-8 to 2021 for PAF to move towards a platform. In the process the J10 matured and underwent 3 iterations before PAF chose it. It will likely take 7-10years of a land version of J35/31 for PAF to show interest in it. It will however keep a very close eye on things.



Agree - let CATIC / China finance it and develop a mature product - there is no value in being the launch customer for the J-31/35 and paying for its development costs - when that money can be spent on procurements of platforms once the development was complete. This is not a co-development project that will directly benefit Pakistans aerospace industry much. Best decision Pakistan made was to sit on the sidelines for the J-35 programme despite all the PR/pressure/hard-sell by China / CATIC applied to try and get Pakistan as the launch customer and then make Pakistan pay for its development !!!!



araz said:


> The TFX is another platformPAF seems interested in and is more likely to go for provided Turkiye has independence on engine manufacturing and selling without any interruptions/ interventions. Closer to the time(2030-35) PAF will compare both the platforms against its requirements and decide. There maybe other factors in the acquisitions ie offsets, local component manufacturing, limited TOT, Local servicing and depot maintenance, generous loan terms amongst other things. I dont see a 5th generation offering in the subcontinent till the mid to late 30s. However with the level and speed of advancements who knows!!.



I am beyond certain that Pakistan will induct the TFX. Pakistan is starting to incorporate Turkish military technology into its military with a view of having military diversity of course, but also as leverage against some of the more "sharper" Chinese "business" practices over its sales and prices of some it's systems. It is a hedge.

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## Trango Towers

araz said:


> PAF has been stung badly by the JFT saga. It will not buy any plane that has not been inducted in PLAAF. J35 is likely to be a carrier based fighter. If you look at the life cycle of PAF's interest in J10. It took from 2007-8 to 2021 for PAF to move towards a platform. In the process the J10 matured and underwent 3 iterations before PAF chose it. It will likely take 7-10years of a land version of J35/31 for PAF to show interest in it. It will however keep a very close eye on things.
> The TFX is another platformPAF seems interested in and is more likely to go for provided Turkiye has independence on engine manufacturing and selling without any interruptions/ interventions. Closer to the time(2030-35) PAF will compare both the platforms against its requirements and decide. There maybe other factors in the acquisitions ie offsets, local component manufacturing, limited TOT, Local servicing and depot maintenance, generous loan terms amongst other things. I dont see a 5th generation offering in the subcontinent till the mid to late 30s. However with the level and speed of advancements who knows!!.
> A


Pakistan has not been stung by the JFT. It was a pakistan proposed and Pakistan specific light fighter based on f16. This is straight from air Marshall shahid lateef the founder of the program. Now if Pakistan has suffered why now the block 3 has j20 tech in it. Its designed to take on Indian front line fighters. .
So your assumptions are negative and false

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## MH.Yang

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> We are just a little child in aircraft manufacture


Disagree. 

There are more than 200 countries in the world, only P5, Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy, whose fighter aircraft manufacturing is significantly stronger than that of Pakistan. India, Brazil, South Korea, Spain, Israel, Canada, Australia, Türkiye and other countries are at a similar level with Pakistan. More than 100 countries are significantly weaker than Pakistan. 

So if Pakistan is just a child, then there are more than 100 countries just fertilized eggs.

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## Trango Towers

MH.Yang said:


> Disagree.
> 
> There are more than 200 countries in the world, only P5, Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy, whose fighter aircraft manufacturing is significantly stronger than that of Pakistan. India, Brazil, South Korea, Spain, Israel, Canada, Australia, Türkiye and other countries are at a similar level with Pakistan. More than 100 countries are significantly weaker than Pakistan.
> 
> So if Pakistan is just a child, then there are more than 100 countries just fertilized eggs.


He was being sarcastic


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## Ali_Baba

Trango Towers said:


> Pakistan has not been stung by the JFT. It was a pakistan proposed and Pakistan specific light fighter based on f16. This is straight from air Marshall shahid lateef the founder of the program. Now if Pakistan has suffered why now the block 3 has j20 tech in it. Its designed to take on Indian front line fighters. .
> So your assumptions are negative and false



Pakistan "had to persevere" and progress the JF17 after the PLAAF pulled out of the FC1 programme - Pakistan had no choice but to carry on with it on it own.

My point, was very clearly was that China's PLAAF was meant to buy the FC1/JF17 jets in equal numbers to the PAF when the joint partnership was launched to develop the jet and the original business case/financials were centred around that. And when the PLAAF backed out of that commitment, it affected the programme as it fell to Pakistan to fund the various blocks on its own. Costs were not shared as originally planned with the PLAAF as the PLAAF had abandoned the FC1 programme in favour of the J-10 series.

Yes - JF17 has some J20 DNA in it - the integration of which was paid for by Pakistan, and different to the original plans of shared developement costs for enhancements between the PAF and PLAAF, but how does that relate to the PLAAF's original commitment to buy the FC1 aswell, and then backing out of that commitment?

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## Beast

araz said:


> PAF has been stung badly by the JFT saga. It will not buy any plane that has not been inducted in PLAAF. J35 is likely to be a carrier based fighter. If you look at the life cycle of PAF's interest in J10. It took from 2007-8 to 2021 for PAF to move towards a platform. In the process the J10 matured and underwent 3 iterations before PAF chose it. It will likely take 7-10years of a land version of J35/31 for PAF to show interest in it. It will however keep a very close eye on things.
> The TFX is another platformPAF seems interested in and is more likely to go for provided Turkiye has independence on engine manufacturing and selling without any interruptions/ interventions. Closer to the time(2030-35) PAF will compare both the platforms against its requirements and decide. There maybe other factors in the acquisitions ie offsets, local component manufacturing, limited TOT, Local servicing and depot maintenance, generous loan terms amongst other things. I dont see a 5th generation offering in the subcontinent till the mid to late 30s. However with the level and speed of advancements who knows!!.
> A


Let me repeat. JF-17 is a project wanted by PAF. From start to end, PLAAF never wanted JF-17 becos we have our own J-10 program.

And now we have somebody throwing false accusation claiming PLAAF promised to induct JF-17 into PLAAF and PAF which is bluntly lies just trying to shove blame on China. Shown me an official statement by PLAAF that they will induct JF-17 into PLAAF and then they back off from this statement...

All the while , its PAF making assumption based on J-7PG project that JF-17 will also be inducted into PLAAF. PAF even make an embarrassing statement without official approval for PLAAF that China will induct JF-17 into its own fleet.


I am very frustrated with such allies like Pakistan throwing blatant lies against China despite our generous help of our JF-17 project. Instead of a thank you, all China get is cheapshot from these backstabbers. Even the JF-17B is never want to be develop by China but on insistent and based on friendship with Pakistan. AVIC take on these project and complete it according to Pakistan requirement for a twin seat fighter plane. And you know why JF-17B has those ugly hinges on the canopy purposely design by AVIC designer?

And do you know that JF-17B is a direct compete with AVIC L-15B fighter project? Which is a big reason why AVIC never wanted such project. Again, its insistent from Pakistan and on your account, we complete it for you.

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## Tank131

Trango Towers said:


> He was being sarcastic


No he wasnt. What can pakistan make for its aeronautical industry by itself? It can assemble, sure, but its aviation sector is truly in its infancy. It has no ability to design much beyond some low to mid level UAVs, it has not wind tunnels to test those models. There are talks about some AESA Radar research but nothing concrete. There is not enough metallurgical experience in the country to even speak of creating or researching toward a jet engine. There is limited missile development (mostly restricted to SSM or ASM). There is something to build on, but it is in its infancy. Nothing to deride though as it only was truly invested in starting in the early 2000s. 

India, though we seei to deride it, has research into design (though hasnt really produced much), into radars, a2a missiles and jet engines. While its labour's haven't yielded much fruit, the foundations are there, it is a toddler. 

South Korea is far ahead of Pakistan having designed and built its own fighter from scratch, it was able to produce a fighter very similar to JF-17. Yes it used some off the shelf tech from USA but the design work and radar houses are local. Manufacturing is also 100% in house and between its fighter, trainer and attack variants, it has build 200+ models on its own. Jf-17 has 150 copies built with Chinese assistance. Toddler to young child. 

Brazil has a far better aviation sector with embraer than Pakistan. It just hasn't focused on fighter applications. 

Turkey has been manufacturing parts for F-16,assembling F-16, AND giving MLU for F-16 for decades. It has thriving weapons design houses (Pakistan has a handful and their scope this far is limited). Turkey has radar houses Pakistan doesnt. Turkey is advanced drones, Pakistan is buying from turkey. Same in FGFA. Turkey is by far out of ahead of Pakistan. But again, has been had an advanced aviation sector for few decades. 

The other countries have the pluses and minuses but arent trying to make fighter aircraft as it is cheaper to buy it off shelf than invest in local development. And due to their geopolitical position they arent in need of safe pathways free of coercion.

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## Beast

Tank131 said:


> No he wasnt. What can pakistan make for its aeronautical industry by itself? It can assemble, sure, but its aviation sector is truly in its infancy. It has no ability to design much beyond some low to mid level UAVs, it has not wind tunnels to test those models. There are talks about some AESA Radar research but nothing concrete. There is not enough metallurgical experience in the country to even speak of creating or researching toward a jet engine. There is limited missile development (mostly restricted to SSM or ASM). There is something to build on, but it is in its infancy. Nothing to deride though as it only was truly invested in starting in the early 2000s.
> 
> India, though we seei to deride it, has research into design (though hasnt really produced much), into radars, a2a missiles and jet engines. While its labour's haven't yielded much fruit, the foundations are there, it is a toddler.
> 
> South Korea is far ahead of Pakistan having designed and built its own fighter from scratch, it was able to produce a fighter very similar to JF-17. Yes it used some off the shelf tech from USA but the design work and radar houses are local. Manufacturing is also 100% in house and between its fighter, trainer and attack variants, it has build 200+ models on its own. Jf-17 has 150 copies built with Chinese assistance. Toddler to young child.
> 
> Brazil has a far better aviation sector with embraer than Pakistan. It just hasn't focused on fighter applications.
> 
> Turkey has been manufacturing parts for F-16,assembling F-16, AND giving MLU for F-16 for decades. It has thriving weapons design houses (Pakistan has a handful and their scope this far is limited). Turkey has radar houses Pakistan doesnt. Turkey is advanced drones, Pakistan is buying from turkey. Same in FGFA. Turkey is by far out of ahead of Pakistan. But again, has been had an advanced aviation sector for few decades.
> 
> The other countries have the pluses and minuses but arent trying to make fighter aircraft as it is cheaper to buy it off shelf than invest in local development. And due to their geopolitical position they arent in need of safe pathways free of coercion.


Mind you, South Korea has a robust industries and is a 1.8 trillion USD economy. There is no doubt money is critical in developing complex military platform. To compare South Korea (1.8 trillion economy ) vs Pakistan (200 billion economy ) is totally not a realistic comparison. Not to mention India as 3 trillion economy. Even just as an assembler for Pakistan, is already an achievement.

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Let me repeat. JF-17 is a project wanted by PAF. From start to end, PLAAF never wanted JF-17 becos we have our own J-10 program.
> 
> And now we have somebody throwing false accusation claiming PLAAF promised to induct JF-17 into PLAAF and PAF which is bluntly lies just trying to shove blame on China. Shown me an official statement by PLAAF that they will induct JF-17 into PLAAF and then they back off from this statement...


PLAAF's demands are not the same as those of PAF.
The name, FC-1, means a lot.


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## MastanKhan

MH.Yang said:


> Disagree.
> 
> There are more than 200 countries in the world, only P5, Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy, whose fighter aircraft manufacturing is significantly stronger than that of Pakistan. India, Brazil, South Korea, Spain, Israel, Canada, Australia, Türkiye and other countries are at a similar level with Pakistan. More than 100 countries are significantly weaker than Pakistan.
> 
> *So if Pakistan is just a child, then there are more than 100 countries just fertilized eggs.*


Hi,

The highlighted is correct---.


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## Tank131

Beast said:


> Mind you, South Korea has a robust industries and is a 1.8 trillion USD economy. There is no doubt money is critical in developing complex military platform. To compare South Korea (1.8 trillion economy ) vs Pakistan (200 billion economy ) is totally not a realistic comparison. Not to mention India as 3 trillion economy. Even just as an assembler for Pakistan, is already an achievement.


100%. My statement is not a slight on Pakistan, but a reality check. To where its sector is vs fanboy dreams. We like to talk without understanding of our actual capabilities or those of others. That said, i honestly believe with better and non military management (private sector) of these aviation and weapons developers in Pakistan, the nation would be further ahead in the last 20 years.

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## Trango Towers

Ali_Baba said:


> Pakistan "had to persevere" and progress the JF17 after the PLAAF pulled out of the FC1 programme - Pakistan had no choice but to carry on with it on it own.
> 
> My point, was very clearly was that China's PLAAF was meant to buy the FC1/JF17 jets in equal numbers to the PAF when the joint partnership was launched to develop the jet and the original business case/financials were centred around that. And when the PLAAF backed out of that commitment, it affected the programme as it fell to Pakistan to fund the various blocks on its own. Costs were not shared as originally planned with the PLAAF as the PLAAF had abandoned the FC1 programme in favour of the J-10 series.
> 
> Yes - JF17 has some J20 DNA in it - the integration of which was paid for by Pakistan, and different to the original plans of shared developement costs for enhancements between the PAF and PLAAF, but how does that relate to the PLAAF's original commitment to buy the FC1 aswell, and then backing out of that commitment?


Commitments and requirements change. We wouldn't have had a fighter if it wasn't for the manufacturing base of China. Fc1 in its original for was a mig 21 essentially. So its good they quit and we git a much better aircraft

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## Beast

Trango Towers said:


> Commitments and requirements change. We wouldn't have had a fighter if it wasn't for the manufacturing base of China. Fc1 in its original for was a mig 21 essentially. So its good they quit and we git a much better aircraft


Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.

After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.

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## Trango Towers

Beast said:


> Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.
> 
> After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.


You wrote all that...why? Did I say anything to the contrary? Amazing bro

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## Beast

Trango Towers said:


> "Fc1 in its original for was a mig 21 essentially"





Trango Towers said:


> You wrote all that...why? Did I say anything to the contrary? Amazing bro




Becos FC-1 is never a Mig21. Sabre F-7 which is unrelated, is indeed a Mig21 derived.

Both project are in fact unrelated. FC-1 is FC-1. Sabre-7 is Sabre-7. There are different.

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## MastanKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> Absolutely agree on this - China was meant to purchase as many JF17s as Pakistan was meant to. When China pulled out of the programme from a procurement persepective - it fell on Pakistan to fund the completion of Block I, and pay for Block II / III's itself. There was no sharing of development costs which was part of the original business case for the JF17 !!! This funding of the development programme "soaked" up money that could have been used to perform more units of the JF17 - hence why the procurement of the JF17 felt so glacial for so long.
> 
> This has for sure left a sour taste in PAF's mouth as far as future development programmes go and how they will be structured.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree - let CATIC / China finance it and develop a mature product - there is no value in being the launch customer for the J-31/35 and paying for its development costs - when that money can be spent on procurements of platforms once the development was complete. This is not a co-development project that will directly benefit Pakistans aerospace industry much. Best decision Pakistan made was to sit on the sidelines for the J-35 programme despite all the PR/pressure/hard-sell by China / CATIC applied to try and get Pakistan as the launch customer and then make Pakistan pay for its development !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I am beyond certain that Pakistan will induct the TFX. Pakistan is starting to incorporate Turkish military technology into its military with a view of having military diversity of course, but also as leverage against some of the more "sharper" Chinese "business" practices over its sales and prices of some it's systems. It is a hedge.


Hi,

The playing field changed---for that reason c hina stuck with the J10---.

The JF17 was what paf needed and that is what it got---.

PAF did a very poor homework on how to make the JF17 happen---. Structurally they did not have any issues---but the power plant and the EW package became a big hurdle---which was overcome with persistence---time was lost---experience was gained---self reliance was gained---.

The major issue was not having a 2 seater right from gitgo---that was a very very bad decision---.

That was a " court martial " type of decision---,

You cannot sell the aircraft if you cannot fly the aircraft---.

But in the end---JF17 fulfilled what the air force needed---. The J10 is filling a niche position---.

The success story of the Jf17 is that it is " ready when called on" and able to deliver as needed---. What more does an air force need---.

Now for its sale---.

Selling a fighter aircraft is a herculean task---specially for a nation like pakistan---.

If the pak govt had been more honest to pakistan in the last 15 years---and kepts its pakistan first priorities straight---things would be different---.

But even then---JF17 is still a success story---.

Every success has its failures---every victory has its moments of despair---. Set backs are a package enroute to success---but to make a " SOB STORY----translated in pakistani as Randi Rona about the JF17---is like negating the hardships & hurdles faced to make this aircraft a success.



Beast said:


> Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.
> 
> After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.


Hi,

JF17 has nothing to do with Sabre-7---.

Two totally different projects---.

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## Trango Towers

Beast said:


> Becos FC-1 is never a Mig21. Sabre F-7 which is unrelated, is indeed a Mig21 derived.
> 
> Both project are in fact unrelated. FC-1 is FC-1. Sabre-7 is Sabre-7. There are different.


OK
Tomatoes tomaitoes whatever...are you happy


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## Raider 21

MH.Yang said:


> Disagree.
> 
> There are more than 200 countries in the world, only P5, Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy, whose fighter aircraft manufacturing is significantly stronger than that of Pakistan. India, Brazil, South Korea, Spain, Israel, Canada, Australia, Türkiye and other countries are at a similar level with Pakistan. More than 100 countries are significantly weaker than Pakistan.
> 
> So if Pakistan is just a child, then there are more than 100 countries just fertilized eggs.


I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.

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## MH.Yang

Raider 21 said:


> I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.



CF-105

CS300

CL-215

PT6

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## PakFactor

Raider 21 said:


> I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft,* it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.*



I have an issue when it tries and does what it's not designed to do.
To establish this consortium, there should be civil-military joint ownership and bringing in talent from various fields, both national and international.

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## Horse_Rider

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> We are just a little child in aircraft manufacture



Thank you. I've been an avid visitor of this forum for over 12 years . Just never had the time to join in and participate.

On the subject, not to derail a J-31 thread, I'm moving my response to a J-10 thread. Will add you to the comment there.

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## Trango Towers

Raider 21 said:


> I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.


Yet no other airforce on the planet has designed developed and manufactured a fighter aircraft. Yes with a partner but how many partner nations does the f35 have? The typhoon, the tornado, jaguar etc etc

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## araz

Trango Towers said:


> Pakistan has not been stung by the JFT. It was a pakistan proposed and Pakistan specific light fighter based on f16. This is straight from air Marshall shahid lateef the founder of the program. Now if Pakistan has suffered why now the block 3 has j20 tech in it. Its designed to take on Indian front line fighters. .
> So your assumptions are negative and false


Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons. 
Kind regards
A


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## Trango Towers

araz said:


> Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons.
> Kind regards
> A


No I have no opinion on the j31. Having said that one has to ask why the J31 is being designed and is it export specific. If its export specific what tech will it bring to PAF that can neutralise the enemy threat. Additionally why are we not in the Turkish fighter program? They have offered it on a plate and we are still messing about.
Let's hope the future is good for Pakistan and its airforce but brother re j31 ... hard for me to say


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## SQ8

PakFactor said:


> I have an issue when it tries and does what it's not designed to do.
> To establish this consortium, there should be* civil-military joint ownership and bringing in talent from various fields, both national and international.*


You can take a horse to water but not force it to drink it , nor can you change a donkey into a horse.

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## araz

Trango Towers said:


> No I have no opinion on the j31. Having said that one has to ask why the J31 is being designed and is it export specific. If its export specific what tech will it bring to PAF that can neutralise the enemy threat. Additionally why are we not in the Turkish fighter program? They have offered it on a plate and we are still messing about.
> Let's hope the future is good for Pakistan and its airforce but brother re j31 ... hard for me to say


J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom. 
The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.

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## tphuang

On J-35, they very recently said the project has 3 variants. Most people guessed it's going to be naval, land and export. The land and export version should be quite similar. They will probably purchase at least 500 naval variant units. But this point, my assumption is that the Saudis are going to be a major customer here and may even be funding the export variant. J-35 itself is likely to join service in 2024/2025 so it will be a mature platform by 2030s. I think countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE will want a 5th gen aircraft before the end of this decade. My guess is that they will be capable of producing 70 of these a year by then. The question is whether or not PLAAF will bring in the land based version. That's really dependent on 6th gen progress and the manned/unmanned force mix. If CAC's 6th gen project is in service by early 2030s, then they will probably stop j-20 production at 1000 aircraft and will need quite a few land version to replace the departing J-10/flankers. But overall, I would be surprised if they don't order some land base variant, since it's hard to convince other countries to buy it if PLAAF itself doesn't operate it.

But let's be clear here. China does not need foreign money to complete the project.

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## MastanKhan

Trango Towers said:


> Yet no other airforce on the planet has designed developed and manufactured a fighter aircraft. Yes with a partner but how many partner nations does the f35 have? The typhoon, the tornado, jaguar etc etc



Hi,

Air forces are not designed to manufacture their own aircraft---/ They would try to hide their blunders and incompetence---.

Now if Masankahn's factory manufactured a fighte aircraft then Paf would test it---try to rip it apart---if it come thru right---it will praise it---otherwise---it will go to the sh-it can.

But if the Paf manufactured it---then who would know what is the truth and what is not---.

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## credence

araz said:


> J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom.
> The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.


No, Things had changed long time ago. J31/J35 no longer relied on external finance investment. Chinese Navy also put a lot of money on this program to get a stealthy for aircraft, which was renamed to J35. There will be two more variants for land base and export. Rumor says that Chinese air force will purchase around 500.



araz said:


> Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons.
> Kind regards
> A


Your information is fake or wrong. Chinese Navy funded the carrier fighter J35 project, and Chinese Air Force will acquire 500 land variant J35.

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## Trango Towers

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Air forces are not designed to manufacture their own aircraft---/ They would try to hide their blunders and incompetence---.
> 
> Now if Masankahn's factory manufactured a fighte aircraft then Paf would test it---try to rip it apart---if it come thru right---it will praise it---otherwise---it will go to the sh-it can.
> 
> But if the Paf manufactured it---then who would know what is the truth and what is not---.


Hello,
True to some extent.
Alternative view.
An airforce designs an aircraft because they will fight in it. Who wants to fight in an aircraft that they will loses in. Additionally, you know very well PAF didn't work alone they worked with a very competent Chinese manufacturer who's know how was invaluable.
The combination of the two has made this a capable and potent light weight fighter.



araz said:


> J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom.
> The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.


Agreed. 
I still feel unless project AZam is a credible project we should jump on the TFX or j31 bus. We need the know how and investing in knowledge and manufacturing is a long term thing


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## Readerdefence

Hi all our senior and Chinese members should keep one thing in mind about j31/35 I believe it will be j35 all the development around j35 will go according to the Chinese Emals ACC to come on line so if we go by history of Chinese ACC good to go by 2025/26 this particular ACC can be online by that logic j35 will also be available by that time Indians will also either budge to USA for F35 or whatever else available from Russian side at that time 
so I’m sure PAF will be able to get these birds accordingly now to mature a land version of j35 is not a big deal for as they are ready to export these stealth to $$ with money specially to countries which are not getting F35 
as per the norms Pakistan always give their input to Chinese defence related development but without ready to or I should say without spending or having any money to input in that project latest scenario is J10 as in coming days Z10 helicopters 
im sure senior members on this forum will be knowing something more & up to date info 
thank you

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## araz

credence said:


> No, Things had changed long time ago. J31/J35 no longer relied on external finance investment. Chinese Navy also put a lot of money on this program to get a stealthy for aircraft, which was renamed to J35. There will be two more variants for land base and export. Rumor says that Chinese air force will purchase around 500.
> 
> 
> Your information is fake or wrong. Chinese Navy funded the carrier fighter J35 project, and Chinese Air Force will acquire 500 land variant J35.


OK. My information might be false. Please present the roght information which is credible. What we need to understand is that credible information is hard to come by when it comes to chinese platforms. PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO. So the Chinese brigade comes out en masse when we ask these question and accusations of false information/propaganda/misleading fly about. Just so we stop asking the pertinent questions. Meanwhile JFT runs on the RD 93s avoiding WS13 series despite protestations that the engine is now matured. One wondors why that is so, although the possibility of the setup of overhauling facilities for the RD93 at Kamra could be cited as one of the reasons. I think the logical answer is the gains in thrust ( if at all) are not worth the change.
I keep out of debates because I dont normally have much time to indulge in lengthy arguments. But still no one will give out simple information on Chinese engines/platforms. To give an example we have platforms ordered in late 60s (M3/5s) running and performing yet all the F7ps inducted in the 80s are gone and the pgs will go before the upgraded M3/5s go. Tells you something does it not!! But dare I say something against the Chinese platforms. Another example is a aimple question of what is the life of the J10 airframe. Can we compare it with the life of the F16s?
A

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## credence

araz said:


> OK. My information might be false. Please present the roght information which is credible. What we need to understand is that credible information is hard to come by when it comes to chinese platforms. PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO. So the Chinese brigade comes out en masse when we ask these question and accusations of false information/propaganda/misleading fly about. Just so we stop asking the pertinent questions. Meanwhile JFT runs on the RD 93s avoiding WS13 series despite protestations that the engine is now matured. One wondors why that is so, although the possibility of the setup of overhauling facilities for the RD93 at Kamra could be cited as one of the reasons. I think the logical answer is the gains in thrust ( if at all) are not worth the change.
> I keep out of debates because I dont normally have much time to indulge in lengthy arguments. But still no one will give out simple information on Chinese engines/platforms. To give an example we have platforms ordered in late 60s (M3/5s) running and performing yet all the F7ps inducted in the 80s are gone and the pgs will go before the upgraded M3/5s go. Tells you something does it not!! But dare I say something against the Chinese platforms. Another example is a aimple question of what is the life of the J10 airframe. Can we compare it with the life of the F16s?
> A


Regarding your last question, properly no one can give you an answer. One thing that we are sure is that J10CP is not bad, otherwise PAF would not have inducted this bird.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The reason JF17 is still using the RD93 because it does what the aircraft needs---. It is reliable---it is capable---it is *predictable*---.

Predictability is the most important item in any weapon or weapon system---.

Paf now has over a decade & half experience with RD93---. It just simply cannot let go of this engine just like that---.

That was the dillema that the chinese had about that---if the Paf went for the RD93---it would stay with it for almost forever---.

The russians have not given any reason to pakistan to not use it---. The thrust of the machine is to the liking of the Paf---. It is to the liking of a couple of foreign buyers as well and others who are interested in it as well---.

Now for the J-10 CP---Paf starts with a capable chinese engine and will flow with it---.

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## araz

credence said:


> Regarding your last question, properly no one can give you an answer. One thing that we are sure is that J10CP is not bad, otherwise PAF would not have inducted this bird.


PAF BOUGHT F7Ps AS WELL. Do you mean to tell me they were not bad? This logic does not impress me. 
So let me qualify that which you are avoiding.
PAF bought the Ps as it was desperate to maintain zquadron numbers due to the US embargo. It was not a particularly enticing plane but given our lack of choice and empty coffers it proved to be the sanest choice at the moment.
The PGs were however a vast improvement over the Ps. They could hold their own against any fighter in the point defence role. However, no BVR, shortlegged and only 5 HPs meant no significant role beyond point defence role. 
The J10s are leagues above the other Chinese offerings. It signifies that the Chinese have really matured as an aviation giant. Most of the advantages are in electronics, radar and weaponry.More composite materials with reduction of RCS. However, compared to other 4.5 ++generation offerings, Rafale, EFT, Gripen, or the Block 70s..... where do we stand. With Radar, electronics and weaponry, in the ball park of the Western offerings if not better. However, it will lose out on engine life air frame life and maintainability of engine. Does that make it a better fighter than the otherWestern ones.......NO. However it will definitely stand tall and prove its deterence value in any arena.
The fact still remains, we cannot compare it with cold hard figures which the Chinese dont give out, which makes life really difficult for the number crunchers.
A

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## Beast

araz said:


> PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO.


Dont be so impatient. PAF will soon reveal the WS-10 MTBO. PAF already reveal the max thrust of WS-10B as 29000 pounds.

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## credence

araz said:


> PAF BOUGHT F7Ps AS WELL. Do you mean to tell me they were not bad? This logic does not impress me.
> So let me qualify that which you are avoiding.
> PAF bought the Ps as it was desperate to maintain zquadron numbers due to the US embargo. It was not a particularly enticing plane but given our lack of choice and empty coffers it proved to be the sanest choice at the moment.
> The PGs were however a vast improvement over the Ps. They could hold their own against any fighter in the point defence role. However, no BVR, shortlegged and only 5 HPs meant no significant role beyond point defence role.
> The J10s are leagues above the other Chinese offerings. It signifies that the Chinese have really matured as an aviation giant. Most of the advantages are in electronics, radar and weaponry.More composite materials with reduction of RCS. However, compared to other 4.5 ++generation offerings, Rafale, EFT, Gripen, or the Block 70s..... where do we stand. With Radar, electronics and weaponry, in the ball park of the Western offerings if not better. However, it will lose out on engine life air frame life and maintainability of engine. Does that make it a better fighter than the otherWestern ones.......NO. However it will definitely stand tall and prove its deterence value in any arena.
> The fact still remains, we cannot compare it with cold hard figures which the Chinese dont give out, which makes life really difficult for the number crunchers.
> A


Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.


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## That Guy

credence said:


> Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.


10,000+ hours is quite a bold claim. One I don't think Chinese members on pdf I've asked have told me.

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## LeGenD

credence said:


> Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.


10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.


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## araz

credence said:


> Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.


You guys either are not understanding the issue or intentionally skirting round it which is intellectual dishonesty.
SPELLING IT OUT AGAIN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
NO OFFICIAL FIGURES NO COMPARISON. NO COMPARISON --- YOUR CLAIM OR ANYBODY ELSE'S CLAIM IS WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE AND THEREFORE VALUELESS.
We are your friends but won't believe any cow dung you serve us, telling us it is latest culinary delight. This remains the biggest problem with Chinese products. Even on the radars there are no figures on MTBF. No figures on shelf lives of your missiles. So your claim for 10k hrs engine life is cow dung. Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.
A

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## Beast

LeGenD said:


> 10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.


AL-31F is only 4000hrs.



araz said:


> Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.


Nothing to do with MTBO but rather the cost and disruptive effect if switch to Chinese engine for JF-17.









Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials


Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials | IHS Jane's 360 Air Platforms Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly 18 November 2015 A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder making the type's first...



defence.pk





*"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme."*


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## GiantPanda

Beast said:


> AL-31F is only 4000hrs.
> 
> 
> Nothing to do with MTBO but rather the cost and disruptive effect if switch to Chinese engine for JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials
> 
> 
> Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials | IHS Jane's 360 Air Platforms Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly 18 November 2015 A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder making the type's first...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme."*




Exactly, Argentina is asking for JF-17 production lines with WS-13.

And China has created a WS-13E mass production line in 2021 even though no current frontline Chinese fighter uses a medium engine. 

That production line is an hard evidence of the confidence in the engine type for the J-35, the FC-31 and new JF-17 variants and blocks coming up. This is not just words but putting real infrastructure behind the WS-13.

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## renhai

That Guy said:


> 10,000+ hours is quite a bold claim. One I don't think Chinese members on pdf I've asked have told me.





LeGenD said:


> 10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.


bro. Engine life is mainly affected by material technology. Look at how much Russian material technology lags behind China.

I know that many countries cannot understand how "materials" affect "modern technology" Because many countries believe that "materials" are very basic and low-end things.... But I'm sorry to tell you. If your material technology is backward. You can hardly make any high-tech products.

The short life of the Russian engine is mainly because the material technology of Russia is more backward than that of India.

"Material determines longevity. The foundation determines the destiny". Sadly many countries only see tall buildings. But you can't see the foundations hidden deep in the ground...


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## That Guy

renhai said:


> bro. Engine life is mainly affected by material technology. Look at how much Russian material technology lags behind China.
> 
> I know that many countries cannot understand how "materials" affect "modern technology" Because many countries believe that "materials" are very basic and low-end things.... But I'm sorry to tell you. If your material technology is backward. You can hardly make any high-tech products.
> 
> The short life of the Russian engine is mainly because the material technology of Russia is more backward than that of India.
> 
> "Material determines longevity. The foundation determines the destiny". Sadly many countries only see tall buildings. But you can't see the foundations hidden deep in the ground...


Have you heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect?

Just asking for no particular reason.


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## renhai

That Guy said:


> Have you heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect?
> 
> Just asking for no particular reason.


You know all the effects in the world. You know how to build tall buildings..... But you don't have a foundation in materials engineering. You don't even want to learn any basic engineering. Do you think it's a waste of time?

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## That Guy

renhai said:


> You know all the effects in the world. You know how to build tall buildings..... But you don't have a foundation in materials engineering. You don't even want to learn any basic engineering. Do you think it's a waste of time?


🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sure, bro. You go ahead and assume everything on your own and how you're the smartest person ever.


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## renhai

That Guy said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Sure, bro. You go ahead and assume everything on your own and how you're the smartest person ever.


bro. I don't have that idea. Just to remind you to pay attention to basic engineering. If you think the base material is not important. Please ignore me.


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## That Guy

renhai said:


> bro. I don't have that idea. Just to remind you to pay attention to basic engineering. If you think the base material is not important. Please ignore me.


YOU assumed that about me, I never mentioned the base material. I'm gonna now ignore you because you're clearly smarter than the entire world and I'm clearly not worthy enough to even look at you, let alone talk to you.😂😂😂😂


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## LeGenD

Beast said:


> AL-31F is only 4000hrs.



4000 hours only?

AL-31F lifespan = 900 hours
WS-10A lifespan = 2000 hours
RD-93 lifespan = 2200 hours
AL-31FP lifespan = 3000 hours
AL-31FM1 lifespan = 4000 hours
AL-41F1A lifespan = 4000 hours

Chinese Col. Li Jie disclosed that WS-10H has lifespan on par with AL-31F. I am assuming one of the improved AL-31F variants in this case. 

Nothing to sneeze at.

*References*






Lyulka AL-31 / Saturn AL-31 / UMPO 117


The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, later NPO Saturn, of the Soviet Union, originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the...



www.all-aero.com










China reaches a major milestone in the field of military turbojets - Meta-Defense.fr







www.meta-defense.fr







https://inf.news/en/news/7cd9d098f5e1456d9d6de3dea8d9690e.html

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## credence

araz said:


> You guys either are not understanding the issue or intentionally skirting round it which is intellectual dishonesty.
> SPELLING IT OUT AGAIN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
> NO OFFICIAL FIGURES NO COMPARISON. NO COMPARISON --- YOUR CLAIM OR ANYBODY ELSE'S CLAIM IS WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE AND THEREFORE VALUELESS.
> We are your friends but won't believe any cow dung you serve us, telling us it is latest culinary delight. This remains the biggest problem with Chinese products. Even on the radars there are no figures on MTBF. No figures on shelf lives of your missiles. So your claim for 10k hrs engine life is cow dung. Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.
> A


I don't know about WS13, what we discussed was about WS10 series for heavy fighters like J10 and J20. WS10 series are already mature. There are many variants tailored for different planes.


LeGenD said:


> 4000 hours only?
> 
> AL-31F lifespan = 900 hours
> WS-10A lifespan = 2000 hours
> RD-93 lifespan = 2200 hours
> AL-31FP lifespan = 3000 hours
> AL-31FM1 lifespan = 4000 hours
> AL-41F1A lifespan = 4000 hours
> 
> Chinese Col. Li Jie disclosed that WS-10H has lifespan on par with AL-31F. I am assuming one of the improved AL-31F variants in this case.
> 
> Nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> *References*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lyulka AL-31 / Saturn AL-31 / UMPO 117
> 
> 
> The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, later NPO Saturn, of the Soviet Union, originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the...
> 
> 
> 
> www.all-aero.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China reaches a major milestone in the field of military turbojets - Meta-Defense.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.meta-defense.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://inf.news/en/news/7cd9d098f5e1456d9d6de3dea8d9690e.html


What's WS-10H? I have never heard of it. WS-10A was gone. It's just the initial version which was not mature. Now China uses WS-10B for J10, J16, and WS-10C for J20, which has 14.6 ton power, i.e. 91% of US F119 power. And the binary vector thrust version WS10 is also available now for J20. WS-15 2nd design is under development (first design was overturned). WS-15 will have even higher power.


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## LeGenD

credence said:


> I don't know about WS13, what we discussed was about WS10 series for heavy fighters like J10 and J20. WS10 series are already mature. There are many variants tailored for different planes.
> 
> What's WS-10H? I have never heard of it. WS-10A was gone. It's just the initial version which was not mature. Now China uses WS-10B for J10, J16, and WS-10C for J20, which has 14.6 ton power, i.e. 91% of US F119 power. And the binary vector thrust version WS10 is also available now for J20. WS-15 2nd design is under development (first design was overturned). WS-15 will have even higher power.











WS-10 engine has 7 variants equipped in 5 fighters including J-20


Introduction to seven variants of WS-10 engine being equipped in China's five types of fighters, including J-11, J-16, J-10C, J-15, J-20.




www.china-arms.com


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Shenyang J-35(J-31) 5th Generation Carrier Borne Stealth Aircraft. Look like J-35 equip with 2D Thrust Vectoring!

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## credence

LeGenD said:


> WS-10 engine has 7 variants equipped in 5 fighters including J-20
> 
> 
> Introduction to seven variants of WS-10 engine being equipped in China's five types of fighters, including J-11, J-16, J-10C, J-15, J-20.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.china-arms.com


I see. So WS-10H is the variant for carrier-based J15. H is Hai which is sea in Chinese language. This shows that WS-10 series are already mature, lift hours should not be an issue any more.


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## MastanKhan

credence said:


> I see. So WS-10H is the variant for carrier-based J15. H is Hai which is sea in Chinese language. This shows that WS-10 series are already *mature,* lift hours should not be an issue any more.


Hi,

The word I would use is a " FUNCTIONAL ENGINE "---which means that it meets & exceeds the minimal criteria of power---reliability--- serviceability & life span of the engine---.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Shenyang J-35(J-31) 5th Generation Carrier Borne Stealth Aircraft. Look like J-35 equip with 2D Thrust Vectoring!
> View attachment 902941




Nope ... it is a well known image of one of the first two prototypes and almost too blurry to identify anything. but it surely has no 2D nozzle:

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## LeGenD

credence said:


> I see. So WS-10H is the variant for carrier-based J15. H is Hai which is sea in Chinese language. This shows that WS-10 series are already mature, lift hours should not be an issue any more.



WS-10H is possibly the most advanced variant because of its stressful operation requirements.

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## credence

Deino said:


> Nope ... it is a well known image of one of the first two prototypes and almost too blurry to identify anything. but it surely has no 2D nozzle:
> 
> View attachment 903092


you are wrong. China is testing both the regular version and 2D vector thrust version. the 2D engine was displayed in Zhuhai Airshow 2022


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## Deino

credence said:


> you are wrong. China is testing both the regular version and 2D vector thrust version. the 2D engine was displayed in Zhuhai Airshow 2022




Come on ... we've seen not many images of the J-35 and all so far showed the regular nozzle including this one, which is a still from a video and the fact that China displayed a model of the 2D nozzle at Zhuhai only tells us that they are working on such a system, not that the J-35 is already using it.

Otherwise, the proof is in the pudding and since it is a quite bold claim from you, it's you who need to prove it, not in return.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## That Guy

@Deino 

Does anyone know if this will have a cannon? I know the J-20 doesn't. Don't think it'll see much success in the export market without a proper cannon.


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## Deino

That Guy said:


> @Deino
> 
> Does anyone know if this will have a cannon? I know the J-20 doesn't. Don't think it'll see much success in the export market without a proper cannon.




Actually I don‘t know and so I have seen nothing that hints, it should have one.

In fact I#m not that much convinced, a modern fighter needs a gun and even lesser to be succesful in the export market.

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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> Actually I don‘t know and so I have seen nothing that hints, it should have one.
> 
> In fact I#m not that much convinced, a modern fighter needs a gun and even lesser to be succesful in the export market.


They tried removing the canons from the f4 jets at cost. A cannon is the last line of defence and good for strafing


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## Deino

Trango Towers said:


> They tried removing the canons from the f4 jets at cost. A cannon is the last line of defence and good for strafing




But aerial combat has changes dramatically ... and while the F-4 still need to into close range, where a gun was indeed "the last line of defence", at the age of stealth it is no longer that necessary.

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## That Guy

Deino said:


> But aerial combat has changes dramatically ... and while the F-4 still need to into close range, where a gun was indeed "the last line of defence", at the age of stealth it is no longer that necessary.


I don't know about that. In a near peer conflict, Stealth won't be as important, as nations like China would 100% have ways to defeat stealth. In which case, dog fights may end up becoming the norm once again, as stealth won't play as big of a role.

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## Horse_Rider

That Guy said:


> I don't know about that. In a near peer conflict, Stealth won't be as important, as nations like China would 100% have ways to defeat stealth. In which case, dog fights may end up becoming the norm once again, as stealth won't play as big of a role.



The dog fighting days are limited to gone. The Western jets even have proposals to remove cannons. There are just too many sensors. Heavier FLIR/IR/LASER can see stealth jets. That's how the EFT was able to lock onto an F-22 a couple of times in near BVR scenarios using IR sensors. Whether it could take one down in real life is a totally different story. 

In a future conflict, you'd have LRBVR missiles (150KM+), then current generation of BVR missiles 100KM+ and then HOBS based IR guided such as AIM-9X and PL-10, Spider, etc, so there are 3 tiers of offensive weapons that will be fired at you. Chances of defeating everything and still get to your opponent for a dog fight and with enough fuel to fight and return are very, very slim to non-existant. 

Even if you beat the LRBVR tier and got to a second tier (From AMRAAM-D to AMRAAM C-5 range), the chances are that you'd be very low on fuel due to defending and reducing energy and regaining it with constant afterburners. The C-5 range (second tier) would drain a big portion of your left over fuel and if you survive, you'd have to disengage to go get refueled. But it's very difficult to imagine beating two layers of advance BVR weapons.


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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> But aerial combat has changes dramatically ... and while the F-4 still need to into close range, where a gun was indeed "the last line of defence", at the age of stealth it is no longer that necessary.


Agreed bro. Longer range shots with much more accurate missiles. I along with many think there is still a place for a cannon

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## siegecrossbow

Trango Towers said:


> Agreed bro. Longer range shots with much more accurate missiles. I along with many think there is still a place for a cannon



Might as well as wait for laser pod. Could be used to defend against incoming missiles and, in the unlikely event of merge, be used against enemy fighters.

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## Horse_Rider

siegecrossbow said:


> Might as well as wait for laser pod. Could be used to defend against incoming missiles and, in the unlikely event of merge, be used against enemy fighters.



Laser pods are being tested on US jets as well as EFT's. I'd expect the Chinese to roll these out soon for their top tier jets at the least. Any updates from the Chinese military on these?


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## Beast

Trango Towers said:


> They tried removing the canons from the f4 jets at cost. A cannon is the last line of defence and good for strafing


And how long has Vietnam war ended...Almost 50 years ago. Technology has improved dramatically. Install gun is just a waste of precious space in modern age stealth and increase the RCS.

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## Trango Towers

Beast said:


> And how long has Vietnam war ended...Almost 50 years ago. Technology has improved dramatically. Install gun is just a waste of precious space in modern age stealth and increase the RCS.


Well when was the wheel invented? Why use it. 

Some things work so why change them


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## GriffinsRule

Trango Towers said:


> Agreed bro. Longer range shots with much more accurate missiles. I along with many think there is still a place for a cannon


With all jets being multirole, canons will remain a weapon, only it's purpose will change from being used in dogfights to attacking ground targets. A strafing run on a convoy is just as effective and a whole lot cheaper than using bombs or missiles. High cost of war makes the low cost cannon indispensable.

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## siegecrossbow

Trango Towers said:


> Well when was the wheel invented? Why use it.
> 
> Some things work so why change them



A wisdom tooth is functional and can come in handy if you lose several molars. But how often does that happen?

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## Trango Towers

siegecrossbow said:


> A wisdom tooth is functional and can come in handy if you lose several molars. But how often does that happen?


Wisdom tooth is used all the time. Just because someone named it wisdom tooth doesn't mean you become wise. Lots of dumb people have it as well loooool

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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> And how long has Vietnam war ended...Almost 50 years ago. Technology has improved dramatically. Install gun is just a waste of precious space in modern age stealth and increase the RCS.


Hi,

The Phantom never scored a hit with that machine gun---. It was a waste of resources---.

You can't even shoot a slow moving drone from a fighter aircraft with a machine gun / canon---. You have to use a missile---.

People talk about machine guns / canons on fighter aircraft and no proof to substantiate the need for it---.



GriffinsRule said:


> With all jets being multirole, canons will remain a weapon, only it's purpose will change from being used in dogfights to attacking ground targets. *A strafing run on a convoy is just as effective and a whole lot cheaper than using bombs or missiles. High cost of war makes the low cost cannon indispensable*.


Hi,

Then it has a 70% +++ chance of being hit with an shoulder launch SA missile---.

Now if you have a modular canon or machine gun---that you can mount it per use---.

No one says how many vietnamese aircraft were hit by machine gun fire.

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## Beast

Trango Towers said:


> Well when was the wheel invented? Why use it.
> 
> Some things work so why change them


Lol..according to you, why need 5th gen stealth fighter, why not just still with Mig-15?

Let me ask u, how many aerial warfare between major countries in past 20 years involved using guns?

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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> Lol..according to you, why need 5th gen stealth fighter, why not just still with Mig-15?
> 
> Let me ask u, how many aerial warfare between major countries in past 20 years involved using guns?


Hi,

Not a single one. 

I am not sure but someone can answer---did Paf score any gun kills against the russians in afg during the 80's?


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## Horse_Rider

araz said:


> J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others.



They may be in luck. KSA is considering local assembly of some Chinese advance weapons, J-31 is one of them! If that happens I guess Pakistan will by default get some on some payment terms. Let's see how the round two of Sino-Saudi defense agreements go in the near future.


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## Beidou2020

Are Saudis buying F-35 or FC-31 as their stealth fighter?


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## Luosifen

Beidou2020 said:


> Are Saudis buying F-35 or FC-31 as their stealth fighter?


I don't see how the USA will offer F-35s when KSA signed deals with Huawei, after the UAE chose Huawei over getting F-35s earlier.

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## Beidou2020

Luosifen said:


> I don't see how the USA will offer F-35s when KSA signed deals with Huawei, after the UAE chose Huawei over getting F-35s earlier.



F-35 have too many political strings attached. Israel will lobby the US not to sell the F-35 to Saudis.


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Phantom never scored a hit with that machine gun---. It was a waste of resources---.
> 
> You can't even shoot a slow moving drone from a fighter aircraft with a machine gun / canon---. You have to use a missile---.
> 
> People talk about machine guns / canons on fighter aircraft and no proof to substantiate the need for it---.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Then it has a 70% +++ chance of being hit with an shoulder launch SA missile---.
> 
> Now if you have a modular canon or machine gun---that you can mount it per use---.
> 
> No one says how many vietnamese aircraft were hit by machine gun fire.


So are you in favor of getting rid of the cannon on attack helicopters as well? Since the chance of them getting hit my a manpad must even be higher


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## GiantPanda

Using a stealth jet to strafe is nuts. The idea of stealth is to remain hidden. When you use a gun you need to put yourself within someone's feel of vision. There are a lot of other platform you can do gunplay with.

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## Trango Towers

Beast said:


> Lol..according to you, why need 5th gen stealth fighter, why not just still with Mig-15?
> 
> Let me ask u, how many aerial warfare between major countries in past 20 years involved using guns?


That why countries are developing small highly agile subsonic aircraft for ground attack purposes. 
When u have a brain stuck on stealth you cannot think laterally. 
Regardless of past encounters. Is there a zero possibility of a close quarter aerial dogfight? Why do PAF and other major airforce still train for WVR air combat? 
I guess you are the only genius who knows better than the guys who fight in the air yet are still at home using mommy's smart phone.

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## GriffinsRule

Trango Towers said:


> That why countries are developing small highly agile subsonic aircraft for ground attack purposes.
> When u have a brain stuck on stealth you cannot think laterally.
> Regardless of past encounters. Is there a zero possibility of a close quarter aerial dogfight? Why do PAF and other major airforce still train for WVR air combat?
> I guess you are the only genius who knows better than the guys who fight in the air yet are still at home using mommy's smart phone.


Not just sub sonic. I mean the Korean and Indonesians have included the GAU-22 on their latest under-development LO fighter, KAI KF-21 for a reason too.
And per GD, "The gun is easily configured to mount in either the *F-35A internal gun system* *installation* or the F-35B/C missionized gun pods." Maybe they didnt get the no-cannon memo either.









GAU-22/A 25mm Gatling Gun


The 25mm GAU-22/A is an externally powered Gatling Gun selected for installation in the F-35 Lightning II fighter.




www.gd-ots.com





You can bet so will the Turks.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> So are you in favor of getting rid of the cannon on attack helicopters as well? Since the chance of them getting hit my a manpad must even be higher


Hi,

I do not think that you have any concept of usage of a machine gun / cannon against slow moving flying targets by a fast flying jet---.

Onceyou learn and understand that concept---it will make things easy to understand---.

A helicopter is a slow moving machine designed to target slow moving targets or static targets with a cannon / machine gun---.

For a particular reason---I requested for someone to give 1 example where a modern fighter aircraft has gone guns on guns with another fighter aircraft for the last 30-40 years---.

As for helicopter---rarely you will see one with air to air missiles---. They all have their guns as their primary fighting weapon---so to ask to remove that primary weapon sound more silly than serious---.

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## credence

Egypt, SAC, FC-31 procurement and TOT deal​


https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal

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## Ali_Baba

Interesting if true - will wait on more reports. Very brave to be the lead customer on a non-collaborative project. They will be learning and debugging that thing for decades esp if PLAAF/PLAN do not buy it aswell.


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## credence

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting if true - will wait on more reports. Very brave to be the lead customer on a non-collaborative project. They will be learning and debugging that thing for decades esp if PLAAF/PLAN do not buy it aswell.


The last sentence of your statements is ridiculous. Everyone knows that China Navy funds this project for a carrier based variant and China Air Force wants the land based one. Why collaborate? Who will give you the top secret technologies? Since J20 is already in mass production, you should believe that China has all necessary technologies and industry capabilities to develop a stealthy fighter.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Reportedly a satellite image of China's J-35 5th generation carrier borne aircraft emerges...
But it could be Air Force version...J-31


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## Horse_Rider

Beidou2020 said:


> Are Saudis buying F-35 or FC-31 as their stealth fighter?



Saudis are interested in FC-31 / J-31. I think I reported it when Xi went to KSA. I think they will go about in a different way. I think they'll allow and help Egypt to buy license production of this aircraft and will then buy indirectly from Egypt. That way, they won't upset the West. That's my guess and this way they will be allowed to integrate Western weapons on it too. That's my guess but they can easily buy directly. F-35 has minimal chances to go into KSA.



credence said:


> Egypt, SAC, FC-31 procurement and TOT deal​
> 
> 
> https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal



I just posted about this , this may be how KSA will get it so it's not "directly" made in China and they will be able to get Western tech integrated on the platform. This seems like a smart move on KSA's part. Let's see.


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## musaji

Horse_Rider said:


> Saudis are interested in FC-31 / J-31. I think I reported it when Xi went to KSA. I think they will go about in a different way. I think they'll allow and help Egypt to buy license production of this aircraft and will then buy indirectly from Egypt. That way, they won't upset the West. That's my guess and this way they will be allowed to integrate Western weapons on it too. That's my guess but they can easily buy directly. F-35 has minimal chances to go into KSA.
> 
> 
> 
> I just posted about this , this may be how KSA will get it so it's not "directly" made in China and they will be able to get Western tech integrated on the platform. This seems like a smart move on KSA's part. Let's see.


whats up with Egyptian military? They have lately been buying all the toys from all over the world including Rafaels, Su-35, Mig 29s, F-16 (over 200 in service), M2000, F-15 (agreement made earlier). Their economy is busted and they have been living on loans for sometime now and seems to be in a pretty bad shape with all the insane amount of spending.

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## sami_1

musaji said:


> whats up with Egyptian military? They have lately been buying all the toys from all over the world including Rafaels, Su-35, Mig 29s, F-16 (over 200 in service), M2000, F-15 (agreement made earlier). Their economy is busted and they have been living on loans for sometime now and seems to be in a pretty bad shape with all the insane amount of spending.








Lack of information and ignorance of things lead to stupid analyzes
The Egyptian economy is very well received
There is a tendency to invest heavily in industrial and agricultural sectors

Egypt has huge reserves of gas in the Mediterranean Sea and began to announce new gas fields
Egypt has a surplus in electricity production estimated at 30,000 megawatts and is working to add an additional 60,000 megawatts.
Egypt has already signed agreements in COP 27 worth 89 billion dollars, 

((( 
*cop 27 agreements and mou’s NOV. 2022





The players lining up to get involved in Egypt’s green hydrogen plans:

#1- ReNew Power and El Sewedy Electric* signed an agreement for an *USD 8 bn project* that will produce *220k tons of green hydrogen* and *1.1 mn tons of ammonia* a year, ReNew and cabinet said. The company said it will undertake further studies and will make a final investment decision in the next 12-16 months. If it goes ahead, it expects to begin commissioning the pilot phase in 2026.

*#2- *UK power producer *Globeleq* inked an agreement to build a *2 mn-ton green hydrogen facility*. The Africa-focused company had signed an early agreement in August for the plant.

*#3- *Saudi company *Alfanar *signed one for its *500k-ton green ammonia facility.* Alfanar earlier this year signed a USD 3.5 bn MoU with several Egyptian organizations to build the facility that will produce ammonia from 100k tons of green hydrogen every year.

*#4- Masdar, Hassan Allam, and Infinity *inked an agreement to establish a *facility to produce up to 480k tons of green hydrogen* a year.

*#5- *Australian energy producer *Fortescue Future Industries* signed an agreement to set up *a green ammonia production facility* with an annual production capacity of some 2 mn tons.

*#6- Norway’s Scatec, Fertiglobe, Orascom Construction, and the SFE inked an agreement for the consortium’s 100 MW green hydrogen facility* in Ain Sokhna. The companies last week began commissioning of the first phase of the plant. Once fully developed, it will produce up to 15k tons of green hydrogen as feedstock for as much as 3 mn tons of ammonia per year.

*#7- Al Nowais subsidiary AMEA Power’s* put pen to paper for a *390k-ton per-year green ammonia* plant and could be up and running by the end of 2025 at its *500 MW green hydrogen plant in Ain Sokhna*.

*#8- *French energy producer *TotalEren* and SME investor *Enara Capital *signed an agreement for a *300k-ton green ammonia facility* in Ain Sokhna. TotalEren and Enara first signed an MoU with Egypt back in May that stipulated the facility would initially produce 300k tons of ammonia each year.

*#9- EDF Renewables *and Egyptian firm *ZeroWaste *inked an agreement with the SCZone for a USD 3 bn *facility* that is slated to produce some 350k tons of green ammonia for ships. Construction of the plant is expected to begin in 2024, with operations slated to begin in 2026 )))






and we will present these projects that target Europe, importing electricity, hydrogen and gas from Egypt, with a large expansion in the coming months.






We have investment projects worth $400 billion
The current aim is to establish a new industrial city with an area of 109 million cubic meters, in addition to the new investments in the Egyptian industrial cities
We are completing the development of the Egyptian port network, 19 ports
The economic crisis in Egypt is temporary, caused by the military's control of the economy, but they are forced to get out of the economy and their empire will be dismantled, but the Egyptian economy continues to expand and of course it is much better than the country of the speaker
Egypt is currently getting rid of the dollar, as it begins to deal in the local currencies of countries such as Russia, China, India, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, and the Swiss franc, in order to limit the dollar, in addition to increasing the gold reserves of the Central Bank of Egypt.
The dollar shortage is a temporary factor, but Egypt has a large and diversified economy. We add one million acres of agricultural land annually
Egyptian military capabilities
The Egyptian navy is expanding its ability to protect its new wealth from gas and oil fields, whether from Turkey, Europe or Israel. The Turks were unable to confront and are trying to courtship because they are unable to challenge Egypt.





The Egyptian Air Force is being developed to face the threats Turkey occupies parts of the Libyan lands, and our neighbor, Israel, when he sees Egypt as strong, will maintain the stage of peace with Egypt.
Terrorism coming from Libya and Gaza has been curbed by controlling the borders
The Egyptian Air Force has always been great

Egypt had 500 MIG-21 and had 150 F-7, 90 F-6, 112 MIRAGE-5.
Therefore, keeping 500 4++ generation fighter jets, 400-600 UCAVs, and 500 helicopters for a country of 105 million people that has commitments in the blood of the Gulf against Iran and confronting Israel, Turkey, Ethiopia, and full of security vacuums in Libya and Sudan is not a luxury.

We come to a final point, the Egyptian people do not suffer from any commodity shortage, even the level of price hikes during the past years was lower than other countries. last year 2.5
There are excellent indications for increasing revenues from tourism, gas exports, and industrial exports, which are expected to increase by an additional $18 billion this year over last year.
Misleading propaganda against Egypt, especially because Egypt is a stumbling block in front of the greed of countries that failed to implement their plans, or hatred of the Muslim Brotherhood gangs is normal.
Some have to focus on improving the deteriorating economy before talking about the economy of other countries. All the preliminary reports talk about the quality of the performance of the Egyptian economy and its good future.


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## serenity

Germany has signed with Huawei to deliver Germany's 5G networks.

Germany is still part of NATO although it is not buying F-35.

Reasons for US to sour relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE are not simply over buying Huawei equipment.

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## Beast

serenity said:


> Germany has signed with Huawei to deliver Germany's 5G networks.
> 
> Germany is still part of NATO although it is not buying F-35.
> 
> Reasons for US to sour relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE are not simply over buying Huawei equipment.


They are sick of US order them around and giving them a bad PR. Look at recent Qatar WC and you will know the reason. Qatar spend billions and try to please the western but still get a bad press. Saudi are no fool to be like Qatar. Obedient to western is useless. Since they cant please western then piss them off is the best way. How to piss them off badly? 

Join their biggest enemy, China.


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## Horse_Rider

musaji said:


> whats up with Egyptian military? They have lately been buying all the toys from all over the world including Rafaels, Su-35, Mig 29s, F-16 (over 200 in service), M2000, F-15 (agreement made earlier). Their economy is busted and they have been living on loans for sometime now and seems to be in a pretty bad shape with all the insane amount of spending.



Egypt and Indian air forces seem more like air defense exhibitions with so many aircrafts flying than professional airforces. Egypt gets a lot of funding from the KSA. They are now getting a $ 10 billion aid package and I'd assume a part of that would go to acquiring the J-31. This may be KSA's strategy to buy from them and remove the optics of "Made in China".

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## Beast

credence said:


> The last sentence of your statements is ridiculous. Everyone knows that China Navy funds this project for a carrier based variant and China Air Force wants the land based one. Why collaborate? Who will give you the top secret technologies? Since J20 is already in mass production, you should believe that China has all necessary technologies and industry capabilities to develop a stealthy fighter.


I think there is some credibility. SAC has been looking for funder for many years. Yes, they have the backing of PLAAF/PLANF but this is aim for export in the first place.

What can be export are different from what PLAN are using. There is reason why Egypt purchase a batch of PL-15 missile recently.


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## FuturePAF

J-31/J-35 review by a former USAF F-15 pilot and member / former member of the USAF thunderbirds (F-16). Basically talks about the engines and the pitot tube.






Once the J-35 gets its WS-19/21 engines, it will probably only then start to perform at the start of its full potential.


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## credence

FuturePAF said:


> J-31/J-35 review by a former USAF F-15 pilot and member / former member of the USAF thunderbirds (F-16). Basically talks about the engines and the pitot tube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once the J-35 gets its WS-19/21 engines, it will probably only then start to perform at the start of its full potential.


The J31 in the video is the preliminary, unmature version, the ultimate J31 should be the land based J35.

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## araz

credence said:


> The last sentence of your statements is ridiculous. Everyone knows that China Navy funds this project for a carrier based variant and China Air Force wants the land based one. Why collaborate? Who will give you the top secret technologies? Since J20 is already in mass production, you should believe that China has all necessary technologies and industry capabilities to develop a stealthy fighter.


Please maintain decorum. There is nothing ridiculous in a point of view. To the best of my knowledge there are no plans on the part of PLAAF to induct J31.

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## FuturePAF

credence said:


> The J31 in the video is the preliminary, unmature version, the ultimate J31 should be the land based J35.


It’s the longest video of a J-31 flying, which is why I think he used it. But his opinion as a capable USAF aviator should be understood for what it is. He didn’t say it was a bad design, but that the US would find a way to outcompete it.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

One school of thought puts Chinese J-35 / FC-31




as an option ; Other one puts its trust behind Turkish MMU / TFX

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## GiantPanda

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> One school of thought puts Chinese J-35 / FC-31
> 
> 
> 
> as an option ; Other one puts its trust behind Turkish MMU / TFX



The FC-31 is designed for export and has been flying for a decade with a sanction proof engine (WS-13E) and has a set path to an advance engine (WS-19) in the future.

TFX has not flown yet and when it does it will be using an engine (F100) that is a major sanction risk. It will be no different than the T129.

So realistically not only does Pakistan need to wait until the TFX flies but also an indigenous Turkish engine to be developed, tested and productionized before it can be a viable option.

Meanwhile, the FC-31 is here and now and there is a distinct possibility that it would already be sold in the near future if rumors of Egypt and Saudi Arabia are correct.

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## Deino

credence said:


> Egypt, SAC, FC-31 procurement and TOT deal​
> 
> 
> https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal




Thsi report is plain fake, wrong and nothin g but a lie … the next day after this BS they reported, Egypt would also negotiate a huge purchase of XAC JH-7 fighter bombers.

Forget this site!!

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## Readerdefence

Hi 
in my opinion until IAF acquire any 5th generation until then PAF will wait & see, history of China exporting fighter 
jets to other countries road goes through Pakistan 
why pakistan coz it’s airforce always give feed back to China whatever they got from western sources another
way is if PAF using that particular jet it’s a force multiplier for China to export it for customers with much confidence 
and way of telling them or showing them beside us another airforce is also involved 
so yea whatever the circumstances at that time once IAF have it Pakistan will go for J31/35 im not speculating about J20😏 no chance & can’t be affordable for PAF 
TWIN ENGINE J31/35 best bet until unless Turkish can offer 
something at that time as Pakistan always short of money 
best bet is China 
thank you

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## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi
> in my opinion until IAF acquire any 5th generation until then PAF will wait & see, history of China exporting fighter
> jets to other countries road goes through Pakistan
> why pakistan coz it’s airforce always give feed back to China whatever they got from western sources another
> way is if PAF using that particular jet it’s a force multiplier for China to export it for customers with much confidence
> and way of telling them or showing them beside us another airforce is also involved
> so yea whatever the circumstances at that time once IAF have it Pakistan will go for J31/35 im not speculating about J20😏 no chance & can’t be affordable for PAF
> TWIN ENGINE J31/35 best bet until unless Turkish can offer
> something at that time as Pakistan always short of money
> best bet is China
> thank you


PAF will not buy J31 till:
A. The PLAAF/PLAN buy them.
B. Some other nation goes ahead and buys it. 
5th generation technology is very complex and initial research outlay is huge. The teething troubles are also likely to be more and require expensive fixes. If PLAAF/PLAN/Others buy it, the cost outlays become divided and fixes have already been achieved lowering costs and outlays. 
If PAF goes for TFX, the TUAF will bear some of the costs of these developments/fixes. As many posters have pointed out engine remains a bug bear for the TFX. However from the work share POV, it remains a much better option. The Chinese at this stage of their development will not share technology but rather sell products to PAF which increases cost of maintenance. Depot level maintenance/overhauling facilities will be provided if the order is large enough. However, the Chinese are very likely to become protective of their technology as it advances and might not let PAF service key components for fear of information leaking out.
A


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## CivilianSupremacy

araz said:


> PAF will not buy J31 till:
> A. The PLAAF/PLAN buy them.
> B. Some other nation goes ahead and buys it.



You forgot the most important point: 
PAF will not buy J31 until: 
*A: India buys a 5th gen fighter*


The J-10Cs are also inducted in response to Rafales. Pakistan simply has no money for such ridiculously expensive stuff until we are forced to buy it to keep minimum deterrence level. However, sooner or later india will get 5th gen fighters maybe by end of this decade or next. Too early to say anything as of now.

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> PAF will not buy J31 till:
> A. The PLAAF/PLAN buy them.
> B. Some other nation goes ahead and buys it.
> 5th generation technology is very complex and initial research outlay is huge. The teething troubles are also likely to be more and require expensive fixes. If PLAAF/PLAN/Others buy it, the cost outlays become divided and fixes have already been achieved lowering costs and outlays.
> If PAF goes for TFX, the TUAF will bear some of the costs of these developments/fixes. As many posters have pointed out engine remains a bug bear for the TFX. However from the work share POV, it remains a much better option. The Chinese at this stage of their development will not share technology but rather sell products to PAF which increases cost of maintenance. Depot level maintenance/overhauling facilities will be provided if the order is large enough. However, the Chinese are very likely to become protective of their technology as it advances and might not let PAF service key components for fear of information leaking out.
> A


Hi araz 
thanks for your detailed reply, if I may continue with this reply with couple of points 
1 PAF or GOP is not buying anything before the show of IAF 
hand & im optimistic at the end USA will make them buy F35 too , as they are in Quad alliance so until then PAF can restrain themselves 
2 As you know better then my knowledge GoP always short of funds so their one & only hope is china of course gop not getting J20 so only option 31/35 whatever why I’m insisting is another 3/4 years for Chinese Newley built carrier to be operational by that time J35 will be inline or will be prioritised by China on top of J31
3 off the shelf my friend they not even got J10 technology transfer which been with China with so many years and lots of fighters already in the air how come a 5th generation technology transfer no way no chance 
4 About getting after someone else this can be debated as you know who that someone can be though those are also like our airforce in love with western technology till the end 
until no other way but even before them I’m sure Chinese want their machine to be in PAF hands to make it credible to get a Nod form other wealthy countries only those are Middle Eastern 
5 About Turkish options I don’t have a problem with their product but their pocket is not too deep to take on our burden and supply at least a squad on long term loan sharing technology how my friend until gop start putting money against their project but I think ATAK saga is enough for paksitani problems until turks got engine technology fully in house 
thank you


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## credence

J-35

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## LKJ86

credence said:


> J-35


CG

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## Bilal9

rockstar08 said:


> this will be best possible option for us in future , but i think we will see what happen after Jf-17 block 3 start producing



Ideal future scenario for Pakistan. 

JF-17 Block 3 will be "quantity" fighter fielded in numbers strength.

FC-31 will be "quality" fighter for frontline strategic use. Bangladesh will be well advised to consider this option.

Both will have their mission applications and uses.

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## GiantPanda

Bilal9 said:


> Ideal future scenario for Pakistan.
> 
> JF-17 Block 3 will be "quantity" fighter fielded in numbers strength.
> 
> FC-31 will be "quality" fighter for frontline strategic use. Bangladesh will be well advised to consider this option.
> 
> Both will have their mission applications and uses.



Yes, both JF-17 and FC-31 were created as export products by AVIC based on the same medium class range of engines.

So a fleet of JF-17s and FC-31s centered around the WS-13 engine with a future upgrade to WS-19 is a pretty rational development path.

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## credence



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## Deino

credence said:


> J-35
> View attachment 908236




Here's the full one!

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Here's the full one!
> 
> View attachment 908266



It does look better and the "lines" flow more naturally than the F-35. Suprised they decided to go for/keep the single piece canopy for naval operations, rather than adopt a 2 piece canopy which is the trend these days.



GiantPanda said:


> Yes, both JF-17 and FC-31 were created as export products by AVIC based on the same medium class range of engines.
> 
> So a fleet of JF-17s and FC-31s centered around the WS-13 engine with a future upgrade to WS-19 is a pretty rational development path.



I dont see PAF re-engining to the WS-13 - there is no value unless it offers a sufficent military advantage to make it worthwhile relative to the cost of adopting a new engine. Maybe not even WS-19. Maintenance/support costs a big factor for the PAF and the luxury of changing to an engine that gives you the same performance makes no economic sense.


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## GiantPanda

Ali_Baba said:


> It does look better and the "lines" flow more naturally than the F-35. Suprised they decided to go for/keep the single piece canopy for naval operations, rather than adopt a 2 piece canopy which is the trend these days.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont see PAF re-engining to the WS-13 - there is no value unless it offers a sufficent military advantage to make it worthwhile relative to the cost of adopting a new engine. Maybe not even WS-19. Maintenance/support costs a big factor for the PAF and the luxury of changing to an engine that gives you the same performance makes no economic sense.



Agree. But the performance won't be the same. Especially with WS-19.

In this case, Bilal was talking about Bangladesh or other new users.

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## mhosein

The Chinese J-35/J-31 is the go to option for Pakistan Air Force IF this aircraft is permitted by China to Pakistan. As for going with the Turkish option, well that's got stupidity written all over it. 

I said many years ago, J-10 was the way forward for Pakistan to wean itself off of the F-16 coolaid, today many years later, Pakistan Air Force has inducted J-10Cs.

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## Silicon0000

mhosein said:


> The Chinese J-35/J-31 is the go to option for Pakistan Air Force IF this aircraft is permitted by China to Pakistan. As for going with the Turkish option, well that's got stupidity written all over it.
> 
> I said many years ago, J-10 was the way forward for Pakistan to wean itself off of the F-16 coolaid, today many years later, Pakistan Air Force has inducted J-10Cs.


PAF always prefer "C" instead of "A" 😉

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## MajesticPug

Silicon0000 said:


> PAF always prefer "C" instead of "A" 😉


"A" leads the characters "SS" as in pain in the A S S because of suspicions of kill switches, political infraction into Pakistan sovereignty, troubles of explaining yourself when an A missile is used, and possible sanctions when an "A" is not happy. F16's are flying coffins against the latest IAF Rafales anyway.


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## NA71

bhai kuch salaries ki fikar karo .... we don't have enough money for next month's salaries of Govt. employees , all mega industries have been shut down, Suzuki, Toyota, Kia, Honda, steel industries. textile industries, etc all closed .....and on PDF we are selecting FC-31 GREY FALCON

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## lightning F57

Is the Snow Owl a different plane to this. Any latest or rumoured specs around on this plane?


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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> Here's the full one!
> 
> View attachment 908266


Is this real or CG?


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## credence

TopGun786 said:


> Is this real or CG?


Real. J35 will enter service next year with the new Fujian air carrier.

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## Deino

credence said:


> Real. J35 will enter service next year with the new Fujian air carrier.



Nope, he asked, if that image is real … it is clearly a CG.
The J-35 however as a fighter is indeed real even if it won’t enter service already next year

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## Corax

araz said:


> PAF will not buy J31 till:
> A. The PLAAF/PLAN buy them.
> B. Some other nation goes ahead and buys it.
> 5th generation technology is very complex and initial research outlay is huge. The teething troubles are also likely to be more and require expensive fixes. If PLAAF/PLAN/Others buy it, the cost outlays become divided and fixes have already been achieved lowering costs and outlays.
> If PAF goes for TFX, the TUAF will bear some of the costs of these developments/fixes. As many posters have pointed out engine remains a bug bear for the TFX. However from the work share POV, it remains a much better option. The Chinese at this stage of their development will not share technology but rather sell products to PAF which increases cost of maintenance. Depot level maintenance/overhauling facilities will be provided if the order is large enough. However, the Chinese are very likely to become protective of their technology as it advances and might not let PAF service key components for fear of information leaking out.
> A



Not necessarily true, the JF-17 hasn't been bought by the PLAF, and some previous Chinese platforms have been very PAF specific. Although the J-31/35 would make the most logical sense (in terms of third-party sanction risk and ToT), I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.


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## Ali_Baba

Corax said:


> I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.



What ever ASR requirements PAF "has" - it has to "shred" them. PAF / Pakistan do not have the technical capabilities to design and deliver a fighter jet itself, let alone a "5th Gen" platform. So talk of having ASR that dont match either the TFX or J-31/5 are exercises of obsene sillyness. These 2 platforms are the only hope that PAF has of a 5th Gen Stealth fighter .. Period.

So - they need to decide which of the two they can "afford" to spend it's meagre resources on....


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## Corax

Ali_Baba said:


> What ever ASR requirements PAF "has" - it has to "shred" them. PAF / Pakistan do not have the technical capabilities to design and deliver a fighter jet itself, let alone a "5th Gen" platform. So talk of having ASR that dont match either the TFX or J-31/5 are exercises of obsene sillyness. These 2 platforms are the only hope that PAF has of a 5th Gen Stealth fighter .. Period.
> 
> So - they need to decide which of the two they can "afford" to spend it's meagre resources on....



Yes, that is the ground reality the PAF has now recognised. But project Azm isn't completely dead. It was envisaged as an approach to establish competency in personnel and technology to meet future indigenous solutions, across a wide range of systems. The FGFA was but one component, albeit too ambitious. The groundwork is being laid to bear fruit, and it has to start from a low base. The PAF's indigenous C4I and Link 17 are but just a few examples of what it can do if it focuses on realistic targets.

But it's also worth considering that both the TFX and J-31/35 have developed and evolved to come close to meeting the PAF's ASR, and if either platform is selected, it will most definitely be heavily modified for PAF specs.

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## araz

Corax said:


> Not necessarily true, the JF-17 hasn't been bought by the PLAF, and some previous Chinese platforms have been very PAF specific. Although the J-31/35 would make the most logical sense (in terms of third-party sanction risk and ToT), I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.


You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on *existing* Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
A

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## Ali_Baba

araz said:


> You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on *existing* Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
> A



I have been following the J17 programme when it first started out as the Super 7 / Sabre programme and followed all its ups and downs and the commitment by China to also purchase the JF17 as an equal partner was "part of the business case to make the unit cost affordable" - but this does not get acknowledged by the chinese posters here who attempt to say that the programme was for "Pakistan only" etc. This is one of the main reasons why PAF has been luke warm on the whole J-31/35 programme(lessons learnt) - as PAF does not want to fund another development of a fighter programme (ie spend hundreds of millions of dollars ) for the chinese industry - it would much rather buy them off the shelf if the PLAAF/N take it seriously then use those "hundreds of millions" on unit procurement etc....

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## Horse_Rider

araz said:


> You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on *existing* Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
> A



JFT is ONLY a PAF specific jet. Won't be used by China. In fact, per Chinese strategy, even the J-10 doesn't play a big enough role in the future so they are reducing it's future production to increase J-20's numbers instead through re-purposing the same manufacturing line. J-10's future with China would become more like internal and coastal defense. China's major threat scenario is around SCS, and there it will solely depend on heavies (both Flankers / J20/31, etc).

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## Horse_Rider

Corax said:


> Yes, that is the ground reality the PAF has now recognised. But project Azm isn't completely dead. It was envisaged as an approach to establish competency in personnel and technology to meet future indigenous solutions, across a wide range of systems. The FGFA was but one component, albeit too ambitious. The groundwork is being laid to bear fruit, and it has to start from a low base. The PAF's indigenous C4I and Link 17 are but just a few examples of what it can do if it focuses on realistic targets.
> 
> But it's also worth considering that both the TFX and J-31/35 have developed and evolved to come close to meeting the PAF's ASR, and if either platform is selected, it will most definitely be heavily modified for PAF specs.




I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases. Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures". We need local industry and buying a J-10C manufacturing line would do wonders for us. When our orders are finished, we turn the same manufacturing line into a "rebuild / sustainment" factory. We can retrain Mirage rebuild factory's crew and use our internal engineering graduates that are very smart and in numbers. Local assembly of J-10C will do wonders, will start a tech industry base in Pakistan also and we can support this platform during a conflict ourselves. Plus acquiring a manufacturing line that's achieved economies of scale would be cheaper now, vs. in Ten years when we'd need a "rebuild" factory.

On AZM, its dead (to build a local airframe), but it's still a project to study and acquire TFX through a partnership. With Akinci (EW / ISR/ CAP/anti ship) and KizilElma (CAP / anti ship roles only) combination and capability, it would make sense to go towards acquiring the TFX to maintain a combination that would work together and to support, we'd have gained knowledge and trained our people. CH series drones will be used by Pak Army for CAS / COIN / ISR, etc, linked with JFT and J-10C's, making another combination of 4+gen tech.


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## GiantPanda

The PLAAF hasn't introduced a small or a medium engine aircraft like the JF-17 since the J-7. The J-10, J-11, J-16 and J-20 are all based on the heavy engine class, in particular the WS-10 and WS-15 in the future.

Very unlikely the JF-17 was ever on the PLAAF's roadmap. FC-1 was always developed as an export aircraft.

In fact, the JF-17 is assembled mainly in Pakistan not China. That would not happen if it were a PLAAF jet.



Horse_Rider said:


> I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases. Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures".



That was exactly what the JF-17 was intended to do. The J-10 line might be available as the PLAAF move into an increasing 5th gen and then 6th gen force. But I am not sure Pakistan would or could sustain another line until its industry is more mature.

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more).


PLAAF even wanted to give up J-10 to buy more Su-30s. And PLAAF wasn't involved in development of FC-1/JF-17 from the beginning, so why would PLAAF consider the lightweight fighter?


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## Corax

araz said:


> You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on *existing* Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
> A



As the Chinese members have elaborated, the JF-17 was always envisaged as an export project, without any official PLAF commitments. Sure there was "talk" in the media, but I don't think there was ever an official requirement for the aircraft from the PLAF. If anything, I remember it was being touted as a ground attack specific aircraft for the PLAF, and the ground attack biased focus of its canon is probably a relic of that requirement. At the time the PLAF had several programmes to suite its requirements - the Flanker variants, JH-7, J-10, J-8, etc, there was no need or space for another platform that didn't match is requirements. Heck, the Chinese were also still modifying the J-7 airframe (with the PAF I might add, F-7PG anyone?) as well as the Q-5 Fantan.

But you're missing one clearly obvious point from your argument - is the JF-17 a failure or has it affected its success with the PAF by the fact that it wasn't ordered by the PLAF?! If anything, the PAF has been able to push through its specific requirements relatively easy, and managed to have overall command of what it can do with the platform, than if the PLAF had a greater stake in the platform.

Of course replicating the same model as the JF-17 for an FGFA will be considerably more expensive, but so will going it alone or hitching a ride on the TFX or J-31/35 by virtue of the leap in generation in technology. Project Azm clearly demonstrates that the PAF wants greater control of the next gen fighter programme, but it's clearly recognised that it has bitten off more than it can handle, or can afford.


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## SQ8

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF even wanted to give up J-10 to buy more Su-30s. And PLAAF wasn't involved in development of FC-1/JF-17 from the beginning, so why would PLAAF consider the lightweight fighter?


I think the aspect of changing requirements comes in. Much like all air forces the PLAAF creates a doctrine requirements document which it reviews and revises(as needed) annually or even semi-annually. So if the US can change its requirements from 750 F-22 down to barely 180 and now is adding more upgraded Legacy aircraft; it is very likely that the PLAAF may have had a requirements document back in the late 90s based on what its staff saw then as their needs of Jf-17s but then revised it seeing the J-10 and later seeing the nature of conflict change may have looked to push for even more heavy aircraft. Its constantly evolving for all forces and the PLAAF is adapting to its threat spectrum as well.

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## MastanKhan

Horse_Rider said:


> I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases.* Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures". *We need local industry and buying a J-10C manufacturing line would do wonders for us. When our orders are finished, we turn the same manufacturing line into a "rebuild / sustainment" factory. We can retrain Mirage rebuild factory's crew and use our internal engineering graduates that are very smart and in numbers. Local assembly of J-10C will do wonders, will start a tech industry base in Pakistan also and we can support this platform during a conflict ourselves. Plus acquiring a manufacturing line that's achieved economies of scale would be cheaper now, vs. in Ten years when we'd need a "rebuild" factory.


Hi,

*The allies won the 2nd world war---because the production lines were out of the reach of the enemy---. No one could bomb the factories in the US*---.

& guess what---why did Germany lose---poor buggers---. Their production lines were destroyed---. They could not supply enough weapons to the frontlines----.

Wars are all about the supply line and not about dying for your country---.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The threshold of minimum power display changed in the arena---.

Even though the JF17 was far superior and far advanced than the aircraft F-7's that it replaced---the chinese had to re-assess their power positioning due to the changing level of threat---.

*They wanted to meet the enemy a little farther out of the mainland with more weapons---.

Whereas paf could have its bases 20 miles from the enemy border---china did not have that option available---. They were a lot farther away from their enemy---.*

Simply a wiser decision by plaaf---.

Bottomline is that they got what they wanted---*and we got almost a free fighter aircraft in the process* that we could mould down to our needs---.

*Guys---we got a free 4th gen aircraft in the form of the BLK 1 & 2---and a 4.5 gen aircraft coming in the form of BLK 3----.*

Pakistan could not have asked for more---. Chinese have not stopped developing the BLK 3----their assistance is there 100% to make the aircraft better and potent at every level of development---.

*Go back in history---and look at the size of the sword that the Roman soldiers carried and compare it to the size of the sword of its enemies.*

*It was 2 ft long to 2'-4" long---and how about the length of the enemy's sword---3'---3.5' long---.

Each army designs weapons to suit its needs---function---utility---.*

*For that reason---we still have the G3 in service---whereas others have changed their weapon multiple times---.*

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## Trango Towers

musaji said:


> whats up with Egyptian military? They have lately been buying all the toys from all over the world including Rafaels, Su-35, Mig 29s, F-16 (over 200 in service), M2000, F-15 (agreement made earlier). Their economy is busted and they have been living on loans for sometime now and seems to be in a pretty bad shape with all the insane amount of spending.


Still can't fight Israel


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## MastanKhan

musaji said:


> whats up with Egyptian military? They have lately been buying all the toys from all over the world including Rafaels, Su-35, Mig 29s, F-16 (over 200 in service), M2000, F-15 (agreement made earlier). Their economy is busted and they have been living on loans for sometime now and seems to be in a pretty bad shape with all the insane amount of spending.


Hi,

They have funds coming from GCC---plus they have discovered large amount of oil & gas reservoirs---.

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## GriffinsRule

Horse_Rider said:


> I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases. Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures". We need local industry and buying a J-10C manufacturing line would do wonders for us. When our orders are finished, we turn the same manufacturing line into a "rebuild / sustainment" factory. We can retrain Mirage rebuild factory's crew and use our internal engineering graduates that are very smart and in numbers. Local assembly of J-10C will do wonders, will start a tech industry base in Pakistan also and we can support this platform during a conflict ourselves. Plus acquiring a manufacturing line that's achieved economies of scale would be cheaper now, vs. in Ten years when we'd need a "rebuild" factory.
> 
> On AZM, its dead (to build a local airframe), but it's still a project to study and acquire TFX through a partnership. With Akinci (EW / ISR/ CAP/anti ship) and KizilElma (CAP / anti ship roles only) combination and capability, it would make sense to go towards acquiring the TFX to maintain a combination that would work together and to support, we'd have gained knowledge and trained our people. CH series drones will be used by Pak Army for CAS / COIN / ISR, etc, linked with JFT and J-10C's, making another combination of 4+gen tech.


You are completely wrong. Future wars with India will be short and intense and expect major infrastructure destroyed (disproportionately inside Pakistan) including all these factories churning out weapons. The sustainment/rebuild phase only comes after the 2-week war in which manpower will be more important than machining and tooling (which is faster and easier to replace). 
And not buying this argument for "wonders" that will happen from assembly work. I mean come on

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## applesauce

Ali_Baba said:


> I have been following the J17 programme when it first started out as the Super 7 / Sabre programme and followed all its ups and downs and the commitment by China to also purchase the JF17 as an equal partner was "part of the business case to make the unit cost affordable" - but this does not get acknowledged by the chinese posters here who attempt to say that the programme was for "Pakistan only" etc. This is one of the main reasons why PAF has been luke warm on the whole J-31/35 programme(lessons learnt) - as PAF does not want to fund another development of a fighter programme (ie spend hundreds of millions of dollars ) for the chinese industry - it would much rather buy them off the shelf if the PLAAF/N take it seriously then use those "hundreds of millions" on unit procurement etc....



situation is different.


fund?

the j-31/35??

that boats sailed a long time ago and pakistan didn't get on it, now they got confirmed PLAN and likely PLAAF support, meaning plenty of funds.

and it isnt even a choice now with the project nearing completion. at best some minor electronic adjustments for any potential pakistan(or others like the middle east) order, otherwise its off the shelf.

i bet the situation is the same for TFX as well. though that program is behind china's so maybe? some collaboration is still possible, but then Pakistan doesn't really have any funds and no tech superior to turkey's to share except as a middle man to china but then china isnt interested in sharing tech with turkey who likes to stick its nose into china's internal muslim affairs every now and again so theres that.

and frankly i dont see why pakistan would be lukewarm to a project based on the jf-17 anyhow. i never saw any official chinese guarantee to buy any of the jets, only online speculation. and you act like pakistan got nothing out of it and only funded chinese aerospace developments. which could not be farther from the truth. Pakistan got tons of tech out of it, domestic production, abid with some central parts from china(and engines from russia). for a meagre 500 million at that


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## FuturePAF

GiantPanda said:


> The FC-31 is designed for export and has been flying for a decade with a sanction proof engine (WS-13E) and has a set path to an advance engine (WS-19) in the future.
> 
> TFX has not flown yet and when it does it will be using an engine (F100) that is a major sanction risk. It will be no different than the T129.
> 
> So realistically not only does Pakistan need to wait until the TFX flies but also an indigenous Turkish engine to be developed, tested and productionized before it can be a viable option.
> 
> Meanwhile, the FC-31 is here and now and there is a distinct possibility that it would already be sold in the near future if rumors of Egypt and Saudi Arabia are correct.


What are the specs of the WS-19 expected to be? The T-FX’s engines will probably be in the league for the F110.


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## GiantPanda

FuturePAF said:


> What are the specs of the WS-19 expected to be? The T-FX’s engines will probably be in the league for the F110.



The WS-19 is rumored be 110kN. WS-13E at 100kN.

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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> I have been following the J17 programme when it first started out as the Super 7 / Sabre programme and followed all its ups and downs and the commitment by China to also purchase the JF17 as an equal partner was "part of the business case to make the unit cost affordable" - but this does not get acknowledged by the chinese posters here who attempt to say that the programme was for "Pakistan only" etc. This is one of the main reasons why PAF has been luke warm on the whole J-31/35 programme(lessons learnt) - as PAF does not want to fund another development of a fighter programme (ie spend hundreds of millions of dollars ) for the chinese industry - it would much rather buy them off the shelf if the PLAAF/N take it seriously then use those "hundreds of millions" on unit procurement etc....


I have read the response of some of our Chinese brothers and also the suggestion of the venerable @SQ8. I agree with him that the Chinese requirement has changed as they have gotten their hands on the SU series and built them up along with developing it. However, international and Pakistani print media has repeatedly stated the position I have alluded to. The Chinese ASR changing is only too natural given its geographical conditions. However it has relied heavily on single engined fighters (for the lack of suitable twin engined ones). As soon as tbis happened it has changed its requirements and I fully support this.
Posters have given the example of the pgs. But again PAF bought the Ps first and then asked for changes. With the J10s PAF has suggested changes in 2007 and then bought the platform in the 20s when it had matured. PAF will not buy a non matured idea from the Chinese due to potential cost sinks. The same will possibly be the case with the Turks now having learnt from the T129 fiasco.
A

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## araz

Horse_Rider said:


> I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases. Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures". We need local industry and buying a J-10C manufacturing line would do wonders for us. When our orders are finished, we turn the same manufacturing line into a "rebuild / sustainment" factory. We can retrain Mirage rebuild factory's crew and use our internal engineering graduates that are very smart and in numbers. Local assembly of J-10C will do wonders, will start a tech industry base in Pakistan also and we can support this platform during a conflict ourselves. Plus acquiring a manufacturing line that's achieved economies of scale would be cheaper now, vs. in Ten years when we'd need a "rebuild" factory.
> 
> On AZM, its dead (to build a local airframe), but it's still a project to study and acquire TFX through a partnership. With Akinci (EW / ISR/ CAP/anti ship) and KizilElma (CAP / anti ship roles only) combination and capability, it would make sense to go towards acquiring the TFX to maintain a combination that would work together and to support, we'd have gained knowledge and trained our people. CH series drones will be used by Pak Army for CAS / COIN / ISR, etc, linked with JFT and J-10C's, making another combination of 4+gen tech.


I will only respond to the last paragraph of your post. When the PAF/PN/PA are acquiring drones from multiple sources and fulfilling their requirements Azm appears to just be another institution where people gain fat arses from sitting in plush offices and doing nothing. In the long run PAF will be forced to look inwards but currently nothing of value has been produced due to multiple factors ( foreign items make money for generals, lack of investmemt into infrastructure, and lack of basic infrastructure being one of the many reasons). I dont know whether we have put the cart before the horse here or what! However I will be absolutely thrilled and proud when we start producing post graduate students to supply to the rest of the world like all other institutes in Pakistan. We lose people as we cannot pay them what other companies will pay, there is no career progression and no will to reward genius or individual efforts. Even if something is produced incorporation in the industry becomes problematic. We need to progress far but both the means and the will seems to be lacking at the moment.
A

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## FuturePAF

GiantPanda said:


> The WS-19 is rumored be 110kN. WS-13E at 100kN.


Does the maker of the WS-10 engines share technology with the maker of the WS-19 engine, if they aren’t the same company?


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## GiantPanda

FuturePAF said:


> Does the maker of the WS-10 engines share technology with the maker of the WS-19 engine, if they aren’t the same company?



All engine makers in China belong to AECC. New technologies for WS-15 are actually confirmed on the WS-10 and WS-13 and the production process on WS-10 and WS-13 production lines.

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## FuturePAF

GiantPanda said:


> All engine makers in China belong to AECC. New technologies for WS-15 are actually confirmed on the WS-10 and WS-13 and the production process on WS-10 and WS-13 production lines.


So it’s possible the WS-19, destined for the J-35, will be developed further, and higher thrust numbers will be achieved.

If the WS-10 is currently around 145 kn and the WS-13/19 is around 100-110, then when the WS-15 is achieved around 180 kn, the thrust of the WS-19’s new model may reach between 124-135 kn. A power output comparable to the F110, but smaller, making the J-35 in comparable position as the T-FX.


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## Horse_Rider

araz said:


> I will only respond to the last paragraph of your post. When the PAF/PN/PA are acquiring drones from multiple sources and fulfilling their requirements Azm appears to just be another institution where people gain fat arses from sitting in plush offices and doing nothing. In the long run PAF will be forced to look inwards but currently nothing of value has been produced due to multiple factors ( foreign items make money for generals, lack of investmemt into infrastructure, and lack of basic infrastructure being one of the many reasons). I dont know whether we have put the cart before the horse here or what! However I will be absolutely thrilled and proud when we start producing post graduate students to supply to the rest of the world like all other institutes in Pakistan. We lose people as we cannot pay them what other companies will pay, there is no career progression and no will to reward genius or individual efforts. Even if something is produced incorporation in the industry becomes problematic. We need to progress far but both the means and the will seems to be lacking at the moment.
> A



I agree with a lot of stuff you said. I disagree with the part about "generals making money", can some do? Yes, it's like everything else in the world. It would be the same case if two companies produced JFT and J-10C locally, someone will get commissions. This here identifies the LARGEST issue we face in Pakistan. Corruption is "hidden" and done a lot. We need to mature up, there is NO society on planet with 0 corruption. So make a % of it legit, the French and Indians have it at 10%, the US calls it "lobby", etc, etc. The world simply works like this. Whichever politician sells the "chorun" of "corruption free society", is dumb as hell or making people total fools and lying to them far off reality. So if 80/90% is spent on the country and 10% is legally taken as "commission", I am PERSONALLY fine by it, why? Because otherwise 80/90% doesn't go to public right now, it's looted and ALL politicians are involved. Now there are new tactics, you stop supporting them due to their MASSIVE corruption including corruption inside institutions, they try to run over you and want you their police force!

Now, with respect to internal manufacturing and experts, we can't produce PHD's, we don't have the institutions built at that level of expertise. So like India, what we do need first is the Horse, not the cart. We use the same engineers who graduate in thousands with good profiles and train them on strategic weapon's technology (JFT / J-10C being an example). Indians went to US/ Canada / UK around 1995 in numbers, studied and worked there and it was only from 2015 onwards you started to hear "design houses" forming in India whether through DRDO or other Tech institutes, until 2010 or so, they worked overseas and learned and established institutions. That's a 30 year journey.

This links to the SAME theme I've been singing, SOMEONE needs to start thinking long term for Pakistan! We have the JFT manufacturing in house and Mirage rebuild factory, the senior most talent exists, we need to go into an overdrive and expand these center of excellence quickly, supplement by our labor force towards J-10C, Drones, may be a BVR weapon, and whatever else becomes "strategic enough". A part of this labor then needs to be sent for PHD's and bring back to expand the local knowledge base. 15 years from now, we'll be where you want to be at, but in that timeframe, we'd have established independence in producing critical components or majority of strategic assets with a much lower cost, with institutions or center of excellence and support current acquisitions for next 30 years.

This right here needs to be a national strategy on everything. Right now being one of the poorest countries we import everything, from food, grocery items, to oil, gas, machinery, defense equipment! And the entire nation LOVES foreign brands and has no sense of Nationalism!


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## Corax

araz said:


> I have read the response of some of our Chinese brothers and also the suggestion of the venerable @SQ8. I agree with him that the Chinese requirement has changed as they have gotten their hands on the SU series and built them up along with developing it. However, international and Pakistani print media has repeatedly stated the position I have alluded to. The Chinese ASR changing is only too natural given its geographical conditions. However it has relied heavily on single engined fighters (for the lack of suitable twin engined ones). As soon as tbis happened it has changed its requirements and I fully support this.
> Posters have given the example of the pgs. But again PAF bought the Ps first and then asked for changes. With the J10s PAF has suggested changes in 2007 and then bought the platform in the 20s when it had matured. PAF will not buy a non matured idea from the Chinese due to potential cost sinks. The same will possibly be the case with the Turks now having learnt from the T129 fiasco.
> A



No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.


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## GiantPanda

Corax said:


> No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.
> 
> As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.



The J-35 is the variant ordered by the PLA Navy. The FC-31 program has official PLA support now.

True there is no clear signal from the PLAAF. But mainly that is because the Chinese Air Force is centered around a heavyweight class of engine mainly the WS-10 and the upcoming WS-15 with the J-20 gearing up to be produced in massive numbers. Waiting on the PLAAF to commit first is not really a rational reason.

Besides the PLANAF ordering the J-35, the aircraft had been offered to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East. Unless you have access to the F-35 this is the most realistic option for a fifth gen that countries and buy and fly in the near future. Everything else, including the TFX and KFX, are far less along in development and are susceptible to Western sanctions on their engines.

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## R Wing

GiantPanda said:


> The J-35 is the variant ordered by the PLA Navy. The FC-31 program has official PLA support now.
> 
> True there is no clear signal from the PLAAF. But mainly that is because the Chinese Air Force is centered around a heavyweight class of engine mainly the WS-10 and the upcoming WS-15 with the J-20 gearing up to be produced in massive numbers. Waiting on the PLAAF to commit first is not really a rational reason.
> 
> Besides the PLANAF ordering the J-35, the aircraft had been offered to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East. Unless you have access to the F-35 this is the most realistic option for a fifth gen that countries and buy and fly in the near future. Everything else, including the TFX and KFX, are far less along in development and are susceptible to Western sanctions on their engines.



Has the J-35 order been officially confirmed? When are deliveries due?


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## Ali_Baba

R Wing said:


> Has the J-35 order been officially confirmed? When are deliveries due?



The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?

The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.

Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered  )...

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## Horse_Rider

R Wing said:


> Has the J-35 order been officially confirmed? When are deliveries due?



Pakistan won't get the J-31 more than likely. Not sure who told you there was an order.


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## lightning F57

Corax said:


> No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.
> 
> As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.


Not to derail this thread do you have any links which summarise the differences between J10s flown by PLAAF and the export CE version. Just curious to know.


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## credence

Land based J35

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## Deino

credence said:


> Land based J35
> View attachment 909013
> View attachment 909014




No, not land-based (variant) … you can clearly see the catapult-launch bar

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## credence

Deino said:


> No, not land-based (variant) … you can clearly see the catapult-launch bar


It’s said to be land based variant in Chinese media. The major difference is that this variant doesn’t come with folding wing and the internal structure is not so strong as carrier based version.


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## Deino

credence said:


> It’s said to be land based variant in Chinese media. The major difference is that this variant doesn’t come with folding wing and the internal structure is not so strong as carrier based version.




Actually I‘m pretty sure NO CHinese media says that … again look at the catapult bar and from all i got via various Weibo posts is, it is the same naval 350003 but earlier images only posted today.


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## SQ8

Corax said:


> No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the *Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version*. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.
> 
> As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.


Not an Urban myth - go read PAFs own history published back in 2008 by Alan Warnes where the J-10A is shown as the FC-20A and was available to purchase - unless you consider the PAF liars versus your own words.

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## MastanKhan

Corax said:


> No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.


Hi,

And yeah Gen Musharraf lied in his TV interviews about the J-10's---.

& you are speaking the 'truth'.


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## Corax

SQ8 said:


> Not an Urban myth - go read PAFs own history published back in 2008 by Alan Warnes where the J-10A is shown as the FC-20A and was available to purchase - unless you consider the PAF liars versus your own words.



I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.


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## GiantPanda

Ali_Baba said:


> The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?
> 
> The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.
> 
> Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered  )...



The J-35 is the PLAN's 5th gen carrier fighter. Just like KJ-600 is the PLAN's carrier AEW aircraft. These things are the intended platforms for upcoming CATOBARs. They are ordered and unless you suddenly see a navalized J-20, the J-35 is the Navy's stealth fighter going forward until the 6th Gen comes out.


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## Readerdefence

GiantPanda said:


> The J-35 is the PLAN's 5th gen carrier fighter. Just like KJ-600 is the PLAN's carrier AEW aircraft. These things are the intended platforms for upcoming CATOBARs. They are ordered and unless you suddenly see a navalized J-20, the J-35 is the Navy's stealth fighter going forward until the 6th Gen comes out.


Hi 
if you possibly add another line of Fujian to be online and operational around 2/3 years, by that time J35 will be too 
& probably we all will be able to see KJ600 landing and takeoff 
thank you


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## SQ8

Corax said:


> I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.


Agreed that it was not the main reason - but perhaps you mistated or I misunderstood but the J-10A was available for export to the PAF as your post seemed to indicate otherwise.

As for improvements to the J-10A, I cannot state any references other than my own through a personal “horse’s mouth” situation regarding inputs (not drivers hut suggestions) for the J-10B so I cannot convince you otherwise


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## Clairvoyant

Corax said:


> I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.



Paf evaluated the J.10A in detail during the Shaheen series exercises when it first visited Pakistan and during that particular exercise at Paf Rafiqui even F.7PG's were scoring regularly against them with their AIM.9L's. During that particular exercise 17 squadron took part with their F.7PG's and scored more than regularly against the J.10A's.

They suggested a number of improvements and only decided to go for the J-10C's after evaluating them in the Shaheen series held at Paf Bholari.

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> Agreed that it was not the main reason - but perhaps you mistated or I misunderstood but the J-10A was available for export to the PAF as your post seemed to indicate otherwise.
> 
> As for improvements to the J-10A, I cannot state any references other than my own through a personal “horse’s mouth” situation regarding inputs (not drivers hut suggestions) for the J-10B so I cannot convince you otherwise


So how satisfied are they with the J-10C? 

Just meets the standard requirements or much better and capable than expected?


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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> So how satisfied are they with the J-10C?
> 
> Just meets the standard requirements or much better and capable than expected?


No way to tell unless another trip to pk is taken.

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## applesauce

Ali_Baba said:


> The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?
> 
> The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.
> 
> Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered  )...



its virtually guaranteed though. 

PLAN literally has no other choice. Fujian is going to be in sea trials later this year. there is no way some other carrier stealth jet appears in time.


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## araz

Corax said:


> No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.
> 
> As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.


Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
A

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
> A


Just relax, and J-35 has nothing to do with PAF. 
SAC just foucs on the needs of PLAN and PLAAF.

There would be no projects likes FC-1/JF-17 any more.

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## Corax

araz said:


> Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
> A



What were those "suggestions" provided by the PAF? For example, was it the PAF who suggested and designed the DSI on the B and C model? Did the Chinese incorporate them, or simply ignore the "suggestions", given that they were already developing the revised B and C models? Does that mean the PAF "improved" the J-10? Again, a lot of this is vapourware and ether without any details. As you highlighted with uppercase letters, the J-31/35 is flying, and has been for over 10 years. The engines are still in development, but if your point was to question the ability of the Chinese to design and manufacture aircraft engines, maybe ask the PAF, since they acquired the J-10C with Chinese engines, not Russian. In fact, if you read Alan Warnes book, the PAF originally wanted to install western avionics, weapons, and radar on the J-10, along with Russian AL-31 engines. What happened to that idea? In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and will rely on western engines, until the Turks have designed and manufactured their own high performance fighter engine, where they have no track record. Which was my original point - the J-31/35 is the only realistic option for the PAF, while the TFX is far too risky from the PAF's point of view, given the example of the T-129.


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## Silicon0000

LKJ86 said:


> Just relax, and J-35 has nothing to do with PAF.
> SAC just foucs on the needs of PLAN and PLAAF.
> 
> There would be no projects likes FC-1/JF-17 any more.



Trust me when India is about to aquire 5th Gen then their will be a project of J35 similar to J10C vs J10CE. 😇

Post 2040, TFX is like F-16 of PAF & will be in limited numbers and J35XE will be like JF-17/J10 and in bigger numbers.


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## araz

Corax said:


> What were those "suggestions" provided by the PAF? For example, was it the PAF who suggested and designed the DSI on the B and C model? Did the Chinese incorporate them, or simply ignore the "suggestions", given that they were already developing the revised B and C models? Does that mean the PAF "improved" the J-10? Again, a lot of this is vapourware and ether without any details. As you highlighted with uppercase letters, the J-31/35 is flying, and has been for over 10 years. The engines are still in development, but if your point was to question the ability of the Chinese to design and manufacture aircraft engines, maybe ask the PAF, since they acquired the J-10C with Chinese engines, not Russian. In fact, if you read Alan Warnes book, the PAF originally wanted to install western avionics, weapons, and radar on the J-10, along with Russian AL-31 engines. What happened to that idea? In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and will rely on western engines, until the Turks have designed and manufactured their own high performance fighter engine, where they have no track record. Which was my original point - the J-31/35 is the only realistic option for the PAF, while the TFX is far too risky from the PAF's point of view, given the example of the T-129.


Bhai
I do not have the contacts or the capacity/ tolerance for cavity exploration to ask PAF what the suggestions were. Suffice it to say if Shahid Lateef says so, unless you can bring evidence to the fore to contradict him, then you will not be accepted as a counter source. If you can ask and are well enough afterwards to convey us the changes suggested, please feel free to do so.
Can you care to highlight how many prototypes of J31/35 are currently flying. I can bet you will be able to count them on the fingers of your hand. I have no qualms against the platform and actually love it. However, It is not yet complete and certainly not in use with the PLAN/PLAAF, contrary to the hype created with our Chinese brothers. As a platform unless PLAN/ PLAAF inducts it on their own, PAF will not be inducting it. I cannot say what the House of Saud will do, but the cost sink is too much for PAF to bear on an untested platform which needs to attain operational maturity. The rest I am fine with.
Regards
A


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## credence

araz said:


> Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
> A


I believe this is true. PAF gave a lot of suggestions to improve J10, since PAF is very familiar with F16. But it's mainly focus on the convenience of controlling this big bird for a pilot, As for the core tech, like DSI, engine, radar, it relied solely on Chinese developers' own knowledges and capabilities.

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## credence

araz said:


> Bhai
> I do not have the contacts or the capacity/ tolerance for cavity exploration to ask PAF what the suggestions were. Suffice it to say if Shahid Lateef says so, unless you can bring evidence to the fore to contradict him, then you will not be accepted as a counter source. If you can ask and are well enough afterwards to convey us the changes suggested, please feel free to do so.
> Can you care to highlight how many prototypes of J31/35 are currently flying. I can bet you will be able to count them on the fingers of your hand. I have no qualms against the platform and actually love it. However, It is not yet complete and certainly not in use with the PLAN/PLAAF, contrary to the hype created with our Chinese brothers. As a platform unless PLAN/ PLAAF inducts it on their own, PAF will not be inducting it. I cannot say what the House of Saud will do, but the cost sink is too much for PAF to bear on an untested platform which needs to attain operational maturity. The rest I am fine with.
> Regards
> A


Funding is not an issue for J31/35. Chinese Navy wants a carrier based stealthy fighter badly. Chinese Air Force also wants another type of stealthy fighter to balance the high cost of J20, to fill in the role like J10. China always keeps things secret, there is no desire and no need to disclose the number of prototypes of J31/35. in previous days, you didn't know how many J10, J20 prototypes either.

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## Corax

araz said:


> Bhai
> I do not have the contacts or the capacity/ tolerance for cavity exploration to ask PAF what the suggestions were. Suffice it to say if Shahid Lateef says so, unless you can bring evidence to the fore to contradict him, then you will not be accepted as a counter source. If you can ask and are well enough afterwards to convey us the changes suggested, please feel free to do so.
> Can you care to highlight how many prototypes of J31/35 are currently flying. I can bet you will be able to count them on the fingers of your hand. I have no qualms against the platform and actually love it. However, It is not yet complete and certainly not in use with the PLAN/PLAAF, contrary to the hype created with our Chinese brothers. As a platform unless PLAN/ PLAAF inducts it on their own, PAF will not be inducting it. I cannot say what the House of Saud will do, but the cost sink is too much for PAF to bear on an untested platform which needs to attain operational maturity. The rest I am fine with.
> Regards
> A



Your logic doesn't hold any weight. Try to count on your fingers how many TFX are flying. Did the PAF wait for the JF-17 to gain "operational maturity"? Yet, the PAF is more than willing to lay down "sunk costs" for project Azm, without having to wait for "operational maturity". You don't get it, the PAF has no options, but to fork out the cash, for whatever option it chooses, to get an FGFA. Otherwise, using your logic, basically the PAF has no option whatsoever for a fifth gen type.

As other people have pointed out, unless the Chinese are secretly developing yet another fifth gen type that will mature within the next 5-10 years for their CATOBAR carriers, they have only the option of the J-31/35, even if they haven't "officially" stated it as such, so it's extremely likely the J-31/35 will be inducted in sizeable numbers, otherwise SAC wouldn't waste energy further developing the type.

As for the J-10, @credence has explained it. The PAF "input", if you can call it that, was on MMI and operational performance, based on its experience with the Viper (the closest western analogue) rather than any changes to the fundamental design of the aircraft.


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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> Just relax, and J-35 has nothing to do with PAF.
> SAC just foucs on the needs of PLAN and PLAAF.
> 
> There would be no projects likes FC-1/JF-17 any more.


I would agree with you. The world of aviation is bitterly fought out and China has spent a lot of blood and sweat. It would not jist hand over its hard won prize to another nation. Especially one with no money! I have maintained that for the next generation fighter Turkey and Pakistan are more natural allies as China has crossed that threshold where it would embark on joint ventures (the reasons are many and I will not insult your intelligence by explaining it to you) 
In the 5th gen domain PAF has nothing to offer it in any case. Iam fully aware of the Turkish engine problems and restrictions that puts on Turkiye. However to me it seems a more likely joint venture than the J31/35.
Interestingly the PAF ex officers have always talked of J20 as a possible acquisition rather than j31. Dont ask me how or why but this is what has been said. Since we are potentially talking about mid of next decade it may become a possibility as China would have progressed much beyond J20. So what is sacrosanct now will not remain so.
Project Azm may just end up rebranding a product bought from st elsewhere. We are no where near the technological state to make even a 4.5+ generation fighter than venture into 5th generation sphere



credence said:


> Funding is not an issue for J31/35. Chinese Navy wants a carrier based stealthy fighter badly. Chinese Air Force also wants another type of stealthy fighter to balance the high cost of J20, to fill in the role like J10. China always keeps things secret, there is no desire and no need to disclose the number of prototypes of J31/35. in previous days, you didn't know how many J10, J20 prototypes either.


It may not be an issue now but it remained so for quite a few years. I agree there is some news of PLAN'S interest in J35 as a naval platform, and the international media is bringing out news of money being poured in to the project. J35 will be a navalized version but J31 for the moment remains dead in the water.
A

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## GiantPanda

There two FC-31 flying prototypes:

31001


credence said:


> Funding is not an issue for J31/35. Chinese Navy wants a carrier based stealthy fighter badly. Chinese Air Force also wants another type of stealthy fighter to balance the high cost of J20, to fill in the role like J10. China always keeps things secret, there is no desire and no need to disclose the number of prototypes of J31/35. in previous days, you didn't know how many J10, J20 prototypes either.



There are at least two flying prototypes of the FC-31 and at least two of the J-35:

31001





31003





350003 and 350001

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## araz

Corax said:


> Your logic doesn't hold any weight. Try to count on your fingers how many TFX are flying. Did the PAF wait for the JF-17 to gain "operational maturity"? Yet, the PAF is more than willing to lay down "sunk costs" for project Azm, without having to wait for "operational maturity". You don't get it, the PAF has no options, but to fork out the cash, for whatever option it chooses, to get an FGFA. Otherwise, using your logic, basically the PAF has no option whatsoever for a fifth gen type.
> 
> As other people have pointed out, unless the Chinese are secretly developing yet another fifth gen type that will mature within the next 5-10 years for their CATOBAR carriers, they have only the option of the J-31/35, even if they haven't "officially" stated it as such, so it's extremely likely the J-31/35 will be inducted in sizeable numbers, otherwise SAC wouldn't waste energy further developing the type.
> 
> As for the J-10, @credence has explained it. The PAF "input", if you can call it that, was on MMI and operational performance, based on its experience with the Viper (the closest western analogue) rather than any changes to the fundamental design of the aircraft.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Kompromat

Should have gotten these instead of J-10s.


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## syed_yusuf

Kompromat said:


> Should have gotten these instead of J-10s.


they are not ready nor available for sale

Beside PAF should go for J20C or J20D instead

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## MastanKhan

Kompromat said:


> Should have gotten these instead of J-10s.


Hi,

Really---kindly share your reasoning please---.


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## Abid123

syed_yusuf said:


> they are not ready nor available for sale
> 
> Beside PAF should go for J20C or J20D instead


PAF will never get the J-20 as it is not for export and never will be.


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## That Guy

Kompromat said:


> Should have gotten these instead of J-10s.


I mean, they're still under development, and I doubt PAF would even receive them before the PLAAF/PLANAF fill their own requirements first.


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## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---kindly share your reasoning please---.



Even in small numbers, they would've made an excellent tip of the spear asset for (a) nuclear role (b) air dominance vis a via Rafale. The J-10C fills the gap for the F-16s we didn't get. They maybe somewhat at par with Rafale but certainly does not give a wildcard advantage a low observable platform such as J-35 would have.


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## syed_yusuf

Abid123 said:


> PAF will never get the J-20 as it is not for export and never will be.


never say never again

this is a strange world with unexpected decisions 

this is what was said about J10 also


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## Kompromat

That Guy said:


> I mean, they're still under development, and I doubt PAF would even receive them before the PLAAF/PLANAF fill their own requirements first.



If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.

PAF is excellent but it suffers from '*reactionary planning syndrome'*. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.

They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.

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## Bleek

Kompromat said:


> If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.
> 
> PAF is excellent but it suffers from '*reactionary planning syndrome'*. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.
> 
> They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.


Well the idea of a stealth platform has been around for a while especially considering project Azm.

They foresaw a valid reason to procure the J-10C rather than jumping to a 5th gen platform for whatever reason they thought was right


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## Abid123

Bleek said:


> Well the idea of a stealth platform has been around for a while especially considering project Azm.


Project AZM does not exist anymore.

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## Bleek

Abid123 said:


> Project AZM does not exist anymore.


Yeah I know but it used to, which means the idea of a stealth platform was officially lurking around previously so there must be a reason why they chose J-10C instead of jumping straight to 5th generation aircraft


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## That Guy

Kompromat said:


> If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.
> 
> PAF is excellent but it suffers from '*reactionary planning syndrome'*. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.
> 
> They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.


So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.

I agree that Pakistan should have invested in a NGFA program like the Chinese or Turkish fighters. To me the purchase of the J-10C was a waste of money.

Having said that, unless we're going to say that Pakistani military planners are incompetent, they probably had a good reason to do this. It's still not too late to invest in one of these programs, after all the second best time to invest is now (considering they failed to invest early).

Perhaps the PAF decided that 5th Gen were too expensive to maintain with Pakistan's small weak economy?

Who knows? Maybe you're right.

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## MastanKhan

Kompromat said:


> Even in small numbers, they would've made an excellent tip of the spear asset for (a) nuclear role (b) air dominance vis a via Rafale. The J-10C fills the gap for the F-16s we didn't get. They maybe somewhat at par with Rafale but certainly does not give a wildcard advantage a low observable platform such as J-35 would have.


Hi,

Thank you for the post---.

Then the game goes to a different level where someone may not want to be---.

The enemy would go for something superior---.

Currently the opponent thinks that their aircraft is superior and they are happy with it----and we think we are a match on many fronts and superior in other fronts---.

So---as long as the enemy is happy with its procurement---we should stay with what we have and get some more---.

A realm of predictability is better than a realm of uncertainty---.

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## Abid123

That Guy said:


> So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.


PAF bought them at 50-60 million USD per unit. So for 36 J-10C we are talking roughly 1.8-2.2 billion USD.


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## That Guy

Abid123 said:


> PAF bought them at 50-60 million USD per unit. So for 36 J-10C we are talking roughly 1.8-2.2 billion USD.


We don't actually know that though. That's just a number that's being thrown around, because we don't know anything about the negotiation process.

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## Kompromat

That Guy said:


> So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.
> 
> I agree that Pakistan should have invested in a NGFA program like the Chinese or Turkish fighters. To me the purchase of the J-10C was a waste of money.
> 
> Having said that, unless we're going to say that Pakistani military planners are incompetent, they probably had a good reason to do this. It's still not too late to invest in one of these programs, after all the second best time to invest is now (considering they failed to invest early).
> 
> Perhaps the PAF decided that 5th Gen were too expensive to maintain with Pakistan's small weak economy?
> 
> Who knows? Maybe you're right.



They're not incompetent, just short sighted. Hope that the new Think Tank PAF has created might fix that.

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## SQ8

Kompromat said:


> They're not incompetent, just short sighted. Hope that the new Think Tank PAF has created might fix that.


Hopefully knowing leadership in Pakistan this isn’t the case








That Guy said:


> We don't actually know that though. That's just a number that's being thrown around, because we don't know anything about the negotiation process.


Interestingly, the PAF is following the same pattern it outlined many years ago for this timeframe - ~150 JF-17,~80 F-16, ~40PG, ~36 J-10 , ~60 Mirage ROSE types

What is changing is likely JF-17s taking on all of the F-7s and J-10s replacing more of the Mirages barring a few that carry strategic weapon systems or the ROSE variants.

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## Ali_Baba

Kompromat said:


> If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.
> 
> PAF is excellent but it suffers from '*reactionary planning syndrome'*. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.
> 
> They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.



i think PAF's problem is more lack of money then anything else. The JF17 for example was originally hampered by the engine choice - Russians would only sell the RD-93 under indian pressure and china had nothing good at that stage.

PAF has always had to compromise and be pragmattic due to money issues(lack ) aswell as geopolitics and associated political influence on its decision making and procurement cycles.

JF17 would have been closer to the F16 interms of size, load, range if PAF had better engine choices during the design phase e.g. some derivative of the Saturn AL-31 series of engines. They may have asked Russia for the AL-31 series to build a jet around that - and Russia declined and offered only the RD-93 for PAF / China to build a jet around instead..

At that time - the talk of the town for russia was potentially the Suhkoi S-54 - single engine variant of the Su-27 series and they may have seen the China/Pakistan fighter as a potential commerical rival at that time ( the S-54 got dropped in the end and recenly a similar concept of a single engine fighter in the form of the Checkmate - Su-75 has been revived ).

PAF has always wanted a jet in the category of the F16 ...


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## credence

Land based J35. Confirmed !

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## Luosifen

credence said:


> Land based J35. Confirmed !
> View attachment 910513


Looks like an old, previously posted photo.


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