# Pakistan possible answer against india nuclear submarine



## jalip

will U boats will be sufficent to defend against indian threat are we have to go for neculear sub in near future


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## amarnath

jalip said:


> will U boats will be sufficent to defend against indian threat are we have to go for neculear sub in near future



It depends on the efficiency of ones armed forces, To protect its Country no matter how the neighboring country is developing, And ofcourse An indigenous submarine with such caliber Can put pakistan to an alert stand.


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## glomex

As of now and I mean 2 yrs INS Arihant will be busy with Sea trials around Bay of Bengal....and will be fully operational by yr 2011.....

So this is what Pakistan Should Do.....


Short term: 

1. Lease Nuclear submarine from Countries Like france, China or any Neutral Country. And the process should be Initiated ASAP so that the Submarine is delivered within next two years.


Long term:

1. Start the process for procurement of 2 to 3 Nuclear submarines ....ASAP...


Pakistan should not start development of Indigenous submarine...for two reasons....Pakistani coastline is not huge enough so that you can justify the cost of a huge project like that.... second...if development starts now...it might take more than a decade to bring that Submarine to Sea...

But for me the first reason stands valid....Return on investment....

Thats an honest suggestion....

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## amarnath

glomex said:


> As of now and I mean 2 yrs INS Arihant will be busy with Sea trials around Bay of Bengal....and will be fully operational by yr 2011.....
> 
> So this is what Pakistan Should Do.....
> 
> 
> Short term:
> 
> 1. Lease Nuclear submarine from Countries Like france, China or any Neutral Country. And the process should be Initiated ASAP so that the Submarine is delivered within next two years.
> 
> 
> Long term:
> 
> 1. Start the process for procurement of 2 to 3 Nuclear submarines ....ASAP...
> 
> 
> Pakistan should not start development of Indigenous submarine...for two reasons....Pakistani coastline is not huge enough so that you can justify the cost of a huge project like that.... second...if development starts now...it might take more than a decade to bring that Submarine to Sea...
> 
> But for me the first reason stands valid....Return on investment....
> 
> Thats an honest suggestion....



Yes, Thats What can be done.. well said mate.


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## Myth_buster_1

in my opinion... If PN ever considers a nuclear powered sub they should acquire only 1 or 2.. 
btw.. U-boats are more then enough to take down indian nuclear sub.. however the type-214 does not match nuclear capabilities such as almost unlimited range and the SLBM and more launch tubes.. mean while.. the more stealthier U-214 has a better chance to hunt that down..


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> in my opinion... If PN ever considers a nuclear powered sub they should acquire only 1 or 2..
> btw.. U-boats are more then enough to take down indian nuclear sub.. however the type-214 does not match nuclear capabilities such as almost unlimited range and the SLBM and more launch tubes.. mean while.. the more stealthier U-214 has a better chance to hunt that down..



Sounds Interesting mate  .....


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## nightrider_saulat

*NEWS AGOSTA SUBS FRON FRANCE AND UPGRADES ON AGOSTA 70s
CAN BE A VERY GOOD DEAL FOR PN AT THIS PART OF TIME*


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## arihant

DesiGuy said:


> how much more pakistan wants to be under debt??
> 
> 
> think little bit about your economy as well.
> 
> good luck.



But, still purchase of such weapons will boost morale of the


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## Screaming Skull

I have a very simple exercise for those who think that a conventional diesel electric sub can take out the Indian SSBN. Here it goes-

Estimate the shortest distance between any Pakistani Naval base and the Indian Vizag port in our east coast where our SSBN will be stationed. Then calculate the total time that any PN conventional sub (include the U214 if you like) would take to reach anywhere close to this port/base to fire its longest range torpedo, assuming that it travels at its fastest submerged speed. Now, compare the required time and the endurance of your subs. You will be in for a big shock!

My post is not meant to discredit PN or the diligence of the Pakistani armed forces and its people to match up to the Indian military. But the fact is that a nuclear powered SSBN can only be taken out with a nuclear powered attack sub, which Pakistan doesn't possess at the moment!

So, to address the theme of the thread, I would say that Pakistan will have to acquire/build a nuclear powered attack sub, if it wishes to take out the Indian nuclear powered SSBN. 

Regards


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## Super Falcon

i think chinese jin class is very lethal submarine which launches nukes from its 8 silos inside it it is based on russian nuke submarine i hope pn will lease it and also buy its their are 4 types of nuke submarines china produces and france submarine is good but nuke submarine they will never sell if u214 and 2 nuke submarine and few destroyers pn gets pn will for sure give answers for next 15 years for all IN aquasitions


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## Super Falcon

i put some submarines config infront of u all nuke subs plz discuss on them and which is pn can go for

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

Six Barracuda nuclear-powered attack submarines are to be built for the French Navy. The Barracuda Class is being introduced to replace the existing force of the four SSN Rubis submarines which entered service from 1983 to 1988 and the two SSN Amethyst Class submarines which entered service in 1992 and 1993.

The Barracuda missions include anti-surface and fast deep anti-submarine warfare, land attack using stealthy long-range cruise missiles, surveillance and intelligence gathering, crisis management and special operations.

The Barracuda submarine is a key element in the FOST (Force Oc&#233;anique Strat&#233;gique) Navy Command of the French Strategic Nuclear Forces and the Marine Nationale 2015 Navy Model which defines the naval force requirements for 2015.

"The Barracuda Class is being introduced to replace the existing force of the four SSN Rubis submarines."In 1998 the French Ministry of Defence put in place the Barracuda integrated project team (BIPT) with team members D&#233;l&#233;gation G&#233;n&#233;rale pour l'Armament (DGA); DCN, with responsibility as the platform design authority and ship building prime contractor; Technicatome, which has responsibility for the nuclear power system; and the Commissariat &#224; l'&#201;nergie Atomique (CEA), the French nuclear regulatory authority.

The feasibility study for the Barracuda Class was successfully completed in 2002 and the programme entered the design definition phase in late 2002.

The French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA) awarded DCN and Areva TA (prime contractor for the nuclear powerplant) the contract for the design, development and production of the first of class vessel, with options on the remaining five, in December 2006. The first submarine is scheduled to enter service in 2017 with the remainder at two yearly intervals to 2027.

The first-of-class submarine will be called Suffren. The other hulls will be Duguay-Trouin, Dupetit-Thouars, Duquesne, Tourville and De Grasse. First steel for Suffren was cut in December 2007 at DCNS Cherbourg.

Barracuda submarine design

The Barracuda will have a displacement of about 4,100t surfaced, which is an increase of 70&#37; compared to the Amethyste Class submarines. The maximum speed will be 25kt and the diving depth more than 350m.

The high level of automation integrated into the submarine's operational and mission systems will allow the submarine a complement of 60 (in two crews) compared to 78 in the Rubis and Amethyst Classes. The operational cost will be reduced by 30% compared to that of the Rubis Class.

The Barracuda incorporates a range of diving, safety and damage control technologies and an integrated platform management system (IPMS). Many of the technologies developed by DCN for the Le Triomphant Class and by Izar and DCN for the Agosta and Scorpene Classes are being integrated into the design of the Barracuda.

The ship design incorporates a range of stealth technologies to minimise the acoustic, magnetic, radar and visual signatures. The Barracuda provides a high silent running speed and manoeuvrability for the anti-submarine role.

EADS Astrium is supplying the life support system for the submarine, which will be based on the carbon dioxide regenerative technology Astrium has developed for human spaceflight.

Command and control

The SYCOBS (syst&#232;me de combat pour Barracuda et SSBN) the battle management system is being developed by DCN and Thales.

SYCOBS will also be fitted on the final SSBN submarine, Le Terrible, being built for the French Navy.

"The submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes and accommodates 18 torpedo and missiles in a mixed load."The combat system integrates active and passive sensors, electronic, optronic and optical sensors and data processing, signal processing of downloaded external tactical data, the launch and control of torpedoes, missiles and countermeasures, external communications and navigation. The communications suite includes satellite and extra-long-frequency acoustic links.

Sagem D&#233;fense S&#233;curit&#233; has been contracted to supply the DAS surface detection system which comprises one radar mast and two optronic masts and integrates a passive electromagnetic detection sensor.

Torpedoes

The submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes with water ram weapon discharge and accommodates 18 torpedo and missiles in a mixed load.

The submarine will carry new heavyweight torpedoes. The Barracuda will be capable of deploying the Black Shark torpedo developed by DCN and WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei). Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system.

Missiles

The Barracuda's anti-surface missile is an upgraded version of the SM39 Exocet missile which is launched from the torpedo tube. The Exocet, armed with a 165kg warhead, uses inertial cruise guidance and active radar homing in the terminal phase of flight. The missile travels at high subsonic speed, Mach 0.9, to a target range of 50km.

The new naval land-attack cruise missile, Naval Scalp, developed by MBDA, can be fired from Nato-standard 533mm torpedo tubes. Naval Scalp will enter service in 2012. The missile is derived from the Scalp EG and Storm Shadow air-launched missile.

The missile has long-range precision attack capability against targets at ranges up to 1,000km. Scalp has inertial guidance which is continuously updated in flight with digital terrain matching and GPS (global positioning system). An imaging infrared seeker and automatic target recognition provide terminal guidance.

The Scalp Naval version has a longer body than the air-launch version and the wings are extended from within the missile body after launch rather than being externally mounted. The missile is being developed for both submarine torpedo-tube ejection and surface ship vertical launch.

Unmanned underwater vehicles

The Barracuda will be configured to enable a future back-fitting of unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs), although there are no current operational requirements for the installation of a UUV.

Sonar

"The Barracuda incorporates a range of diving, safety and damage control technologies."Thales Underwater Systems has been selected as prime contractor for the sonar suite. The submarine is fitted with bow sonar wide-aperture flank sonar and towed sonar arrays.

Thales Underwater Systems has placed a contract on the Centre for Submarine Technology, a division of the UK MoD QinetiQ organisation, to carry out a feasibility study on the deployment of reelable thin line towed sonar arrays for the Barracuda class.

Propulsion

The nuclear propulsion system is a new hybrid design providing electric propulsion for economical cruise speeds and turbo-mechanical propulsion for higher speeds. The power plant will be based on technologies developed for the 150MW K15 pressure water reactor installed in the Triomphant Class submarine and the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier.

Thermodyn of Le Creusot has been selected to provide the two turbo-generators and one propulsion turbine for each vessel.


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The six Barracuda nuclear-powered attack submarines will replace the four Rubis submarines and two Amethyst class submarines in the French Navy.

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The Barracuda will have a displacement of about 4,100t surfaced, an increase of 70% compared to the Amethyste class submarines. Maximum speed will be 25kt and diving depth over 350m.

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The Barracuda missions will include anti-surface and fast deep anti-submarine warfare, land attack using stealthy long-range cruise missiles, surveillance and special operations.

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Expand Image
Barracuda will be armed with the Naval Scalp cruise missile which has long-range precision attack capability against targets at ranges of up to 1,000km.

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The Barracuda's anti-surface missile is an upgraded version of the SM39 Exocet missile, which travels at high subsonic speed, Mach 0.9, to a target range of 50km.

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The Black Shark heavyweight torpedo, developed by DCN and Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS).


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## Super Falcon

As a cruise-missile submarine, the Oscar was designed primarily to attack NATO aircraft carrier battle groups. To cope with its resource problems, the Russian Navy, in the early 1990s, made an effort at preserving its core submarine force capabilities. The Russian Navy continued to invest in new construction. In the late 1990s it completed several new submarines of the third generation Oscar II. 11 of the larger Oscar II submarines were built between 1985 and 1999 at the Sevmash yard in Severodvinsk. Three have been decommissioned and one, the Kursk, sank. Two Oscar II submarines are active with the Northern Fleet and five with the Pacific Fleet.

DESIGN

Designed to deliver missile blows on groups of ships and coastal installations, the submarine constitutes an updated version of Project 949 with one additional compartment to improve the inner arrangement of the armament and equipment.

The Oscar II is a double-hulled design, and is divided into ten major compartments. The reinforced rounded cover of the sail is intended to break through the ice of the Artic ice cap. The two periscopes, radio-sextant and radar masts are located within the retractable devices area. The HF and UHF radio-masts, radio direction-finder masts and satellite communication and navigation masts are located on the airshaft to feed compressors. The submarine is fitted with a floating antenna buoy to receive radio messages, target designation data and satellite navigation signals at a great depth and under the ice. The bow horizontal hydroplanes are retracted into the hull. The main mechanisms have modular design and two-cascade shock-absorbing system.

As with other Russian submarines, the Oscar features a double hull, comprising an inner pressure hull and an outer hydrodynamic hull. The 3.5m separation between the inner and outer hulls on the Oscar provides significant reserve buoyancy, and improved survivability against conventional torpedoes. These large submarines are said to be slow to dive and manoeuvre, though they are credited with a submerged speed of about 30 knots &#8211; sufficient to keep pace with their targets. 

The improved Oscar II is about 10m longer than the Oscar I, possibly making room for a quieter propulsion system, and features upgraded electronic systems. The Oscar II is also characterized by a substantially enlarged fin, which should improve underwater manoeuvrability. 

OSCAR II WEAPONS SYSTEMS
The submarine is equipped with 24 SS-N-19 Granit (NATO codename "Shipwreck") cruise missiles with a range of 550km. The missile has a length of 10.5m and weighs 6.9t with a warhead weighing 1000kg. Its speed is Mach 1.5. Under the START treaty, nuclear warheads for these missiles have been replaced with high explosive warheads. The missiles, which are launched while the submarine is submerged, are fired from tubes fixed at an angle of approximately 40&#176;. The tubes, arranged in two rows of twelve, are each covered by six hatches on each side of the sail, with each hatch covering a pair of tubes. The launchers are placed between the inner pressure hull and the outer hydrodynamic hull.

The torpedo tubes fire both torpedoes and shorter range anti-ship missiles, and a combination of some two dozen weapons are carried including the SS-N-16 missile. The SS-N-16 has a range of 50km and is powered by a liquid fuel turbojet engine. It can carry either an explosive warhead or a Type 40 torpedo.

In the 1980s the Rubin Design Bureau was responsible for developing a number of third-generation nuclear submarines with cruise missiles, including Projects 949 ("Granit", "Oscar I") and 949A ("Antey", "Oscar II"). The Bureau took the lead in using naval cruise missiles, designing the first cruise missile nuclear submarine &#8211; Project 659 ("Echo I"), then Project 675 ("Echo II") and related modifications.

THE KURSK DISASTER
On 12 August 2000, the Oscar II nuclear-powered cruise missile submarine, Kursk (K 141), sank in the Barents Sea, with the loss of all 118 crew. Commissioned in 1994, the Kursk was part of the Russian Northern Fleet. From Norwegian seismological records, it appeared that the submarine was destroyed by two explosions. A subsequent enquiry confirmed that these were caused by the explosion of a Type 65 high test peroxide (HTP) 650mm torpedo, which triggered the explosion in the weapons compartment that caused the vessel to sink. The blast was caused by highly volatile torpedo propellant that leaked and came in contact with kerosene and metal. Vain efforts to rescue any surviving crew were aided by the UK's LR5 submarine rescue vehicle and a Norwegian diving team. 

The Kursk was raised in October 2001 and towed to the Russian naval shipyard in Murmansk. The forward weapons compartment was cut out prior to lifting and sections were later lifted in May 2002. Wreckage remaining on the seabed was blown up. The nuclear reactors and Granit cruise missiles were all recovered. The salvage operation was carried out by two Dutch companies, Mammoet Worldwide and Smit International



russia will never sell this to pakistan because of india


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## Super Falcon

The Vanguard submarines were built by Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Limited (now BAE Systems Marine) at Barrow-in-Furness. They are the largest submarines manufactured in the UK, displacing 15,900t submerged, twice the displacement of the Resolution class Polaris submarines which they replaced.

The first of class, HMS Vanguard, was commissioned in 1993, HMS Victorious in 1995, HMS Vigilant in 1996 and HMS Vengeance in 1999. The Vanguard submarines are based at the Royal Naval Base at Faslane in Scotland. 

In February 2002, HMS Vanguard arrived at Devonport Naval Base to begin a two year refit including a new reactor core, which was completed in January 2005.

Following sea trials, which included test launching of Trident II D5 ballistic missiles, the vessel has returned to the fleet. A new dry dock was completed in 2001 for the refit of Vanguard and other RN nuclear-powered submarines. HMS Victorious began refit in January 2005, which was completed in July 2008. Following sea trials she is to return to operational service in 2009.

Missiles

The Vanguard has the capacity to carry 16 Trident missiles. The Trident II or D5 missile (designated UGM-133A) is a strategic submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) manufactured by Lockheed Martin Missiles and Space. The missile carries a number of multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs), each armed with a yield of 100kt to 120kt.

"The Vanguard Class submarines have the capacity to carry 16 Trident missiles."The Trident II missile can carry up to 12 MIRVs but START I treaty agreements limit this to eight. D5 missiles for the Vanguard Class will carry a maximum of four warheads and, in 1999, it was announced that each vessel would carry a maximum of 48 warheads.

Trident II is a three-stage solid propellant missile with supersonic speed. Weight is 59,000kg. The US Navy gives the range of the D5 as 'greater than 7,360km' but this could be up to 12,000km, depending on the payload mix.

The accuracy of strike on the target is given by the Circle of Equal Probability (CEP) value, which is the radius of the circle within which half the strikes will impact. The Mark 6 guidance system on Trident II is a star-sight aided inertial guidance system, which gives a CEP of 120m. The missile is ejected from the submarine by high-pressure gas. When it reaches the surface the first rocket stage fires automatically. The missile's inertial guidance system calculates flight behaviour and guidance.

After the third rocket motor has separated, the warhead carrier takes a star-sighting to confirm position and manoeuvres to the point at which the warheads can be released to freefall onto the target.

Torpedoes

Vanguard is fitted with four 533mm torpedo tubes and carries the Spearfish torpedo supplied by BAE Systems. Spearfish is a heavyweight wire-guided torpedo with both active and passive homing.

It has a speed of 102km/h (55kt) and range of 54km (30nm) at low speed, 26km (12.5nm) at high speed. Length is 7m (23ft), diameter is 533mm (21in) and weight is 1,850kg (4,075lb), with a 300kg (660lb) warhead.

Electronic warfare

The submarine is fitted with two SSE Mark 10 launchers for deployment of Type 2066 and 2071 decoys. The submarine's electronic support measures (ESM) intercept system is the UAP Mark 3 supplied by Thales Defence.

Sensors

Vanguard is equipped with the Thales Underwater Systems Type 2054 composite sonar system. Type 2054 is a multi-mode multi-frequency suite, which includes the 2046, 2043 and 2082 sonar systems. In September 2006, Lockheed Martin UK was awarded a contract to upgrade the Type 2054 sonar systems.

The upgrade will include open architecture processing using COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) technology, based on the ARCI (Acoustic Rapid COTS Insertion) model that has been in service with the US Navy since 1998. The upgraded system will enter service from 2009.

The Vanguard's towed sonar array is the Type 2046, which provides passive search capability and operates at very low frequency. The Type 2043 is the hull-mounted active and passive mode search sonar and the Type 2082 sonar provides passive intercept and ranging capability.

"Vanguard is fitted with four 533mm torpedo tubes."The submarine is fitted with the CK51 search periscope and the CH91 attack periscope from Thales (formerly Pilkington) Optronics. These periscopes include TV camera and thermal imager as well as optical channel. All above water sensors are combined into self-protection masts in the submarine's fin.

The submarine's navigation radar is the Type 1007 I-band radar supplied by Kelvin Hughes.

Propulsion

The Vanguard class submarine's main nuclear powered propulsion system is based on the second-generation Rolls-Royce PWR 2, which was developed specifically for the Vanguard Class. Current generations of PWR allow submarines to circumnavigate the world about 20 times, whereas the latest development of PWR would allow circumnavigation 40 times without refuelling.

The other main items of machinery are two GEC turbines, and a single shaft with a pump jet propulsor. There are two Paxman diesel alternators, and two turbo generators from WH Allen. The propulsion system provides a maximum submerged speed of 25 knots.


this english submarine is good for short term answer to IN nuke submarine this can fire nuke bullistic missiles


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## Super Falcon

The Typhoon ballistic missile nuclear-powered (SSBN) submarines are the largest submarines ever to be built. They were constructed at the Severodvinsk Shipyard, on the White Sea near Archangel.

The first of the six members of the class to be commissioned was TK 208 in 1981, followed by TK 202 in 1983, TK 12 in 1984, TK 13 in 1985, TK 17 in 1987 and TK 20 in 1989. The submarines were stationed with the Russian Northern Fleet at Litsa Guba.

Of the six, only TK 17 and TK 20 are operational. TK 208 was relaunched following refit in 2002 and is being used as a trials ship. TK 12 and TK 13 are decommissioned, waiting to be scrapped.

With assistance from the United States, through the cooperative threat reduction programme, TK 202 has had its nuclear fuel removed by US funded processing facilities and converted into forms suitable for long-term storage or reuse. The UK has also agreed to take part in the dismantling of Russia's decommissioned nuclear submarines.

Design

The Typhoon Class submarine is of multi-hulled design &#8211; five inner hulls are situated inside a superstructure of the two parallel main hulls. The superstructure is coated with sound-absorbent tiles. There are 19 compartments including a strengthened module which houses the main control room and electronic equipment compartment which is above the main hulls behind the missile launch tubes.

"The Typhoon Class submarine is of multi-hulled design, with five inner hulls."The submarine's design includes features for travelling under ice and ice-breaking. It has an advanced stern fin with horizontal hydroplane fitted after the screws. The nose horizontal hydroplanes are in the bow section and are retractable into the hull.

The retractable systems include two periscopes (one for the commander and one for general use), radio sextant, radar, radio communications, navigation and direction-finder masts.

They are housed within the sail guard. The sail and sail guard have a reinforced rounded cover for ice-breaking.

Maximum diving depth is 400m. Speed is 12kt when surfaced and 25kt when submerged. Typhoon is capable of spending 120 days at sea.

Missiles

The submarine carries 20 RSM-52 intercontinental, three-stage solid propellant ballistic missiles. The two rows of missile launch tubes are situated in front of the sail between the main hulls.

Each missile consists of ten independently targetable multiple re-entry vehicles (MIRV's), each with a 100kt nuclear warhead. Guidance is inertial with stellar reference updating. Range is 8,300km with accuracy (CEP) of 500m. The missile weighs 84,000kg at launch and was designed by the Makayev Design Bureau. It has the NATO designation of SS-N-20 Sturgeon.

In September and December 2005, the Dmitry Donskoy carried out successful flight tests of a new solid fuel intercontinental ballistic missile, the SS-N-30 Bulava, being developed for the Russian Navy. Bulava is reported to have a range of more than 8,000km and to be able to carry a 550kt nuclear warhead. It is based on the land-launched Topol missile (SS-27). Bulava is to arm the Russian Navy&#8217;s new Borey Class submarines from 2008 and may be retrofitted to the Typhoon Class.

Torpedoes

Typhoon has four 630mm torpedo tubes and two 533mm torpedo tubes with a total of 22 anti-submarine missiles and torpedoes of varying types. The torpedo room is in the upper part of the bow between the hulls. The torpedo tubes can also be used to deploy mines.

Systems

The sonar is an active / passive search and attack type with the sonar mounted on the hull under the torpedo room. The submarine is fitted with I/J-band surface target detection radar.

"Typhoon has four 630mm torpedo tubes and two 533mm torpedo tubes with a total of 22 anti-submarine missiles and torpedoes."Countermeaures include ESM (electronic support measures), radar warning system and direction-finding system.

The submarine has both radio and satellite communications systems. It is fitted with two floating antenna buoys to receive radio signals, target designation data and satellite navigation signals, at depth and under ice cover.

Propulsion

The submarine main machinery consists of two nuclear water reactors and two turbogear assemblies comprising steam turbine and gearbox. One reactor and one turbogear assembly are fitted in each main hull.

Each nuclear water reactor produces 190MW. These drive two 50,000hp steam turbines and four 3,200kW turbogenerators. Two 800kW diesel generators serve as standby propulsion units and are coupled to the shaft line. The two propellers are seven-blade, fixed-pitch shrouded. The built-in thrusters on the bow and stern are two telescopic turning screw rudders and are powered by a 750kW motor


china also makes copy of this submarine we can get it from them on lease or simply buy it


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## Machoman

> how much more pakistan wants to be under debt??
> 
> 
> think little bit about your economy as well.
> 
> good luck.



Sorry to say but American should do the same thing too.


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## Super Falcon

Le Triomphant (S616) is the French Navy's ballistic missile nuclear-powered submarine (SSBN), intended to replace the L'Inflexible M4 Class SSBNs.

The submarine was designed and built at DCN's Cherbourg shipyard. This first-of-class submarine was launched in July 1993 and entered service in 1997. The second, Le Temeraire (S617), entered service in January 2000. The third, Le Vigilant (S618), was launched in April 2003 and commissioned in November 2004.

The fourth and last, Le Terrible (S619) was rolled out in March 2008 and is scheduled for launch in mid-2008. It is planned to commission in 2010.

In April 2007, DCN became DCNS. This followed an agreement in which Thales became a 25&#37; shareholder in the new company and DCN acquired the naval business of Thales France (excluding naval equipment).

Missiles

The submarine carries 16 vertically launched M45 ballistic missiles supplied by EADS Space Transportation (formerly Aerospatiale), based in Les Mureaux, France. The M45 propulsion system has three-stage solid fuel rocket motors producing hypersonic speed. The inertial control and guidance system is equipped with a Sagittaire digital computer supplied by Thales (formerly Thomson-CSF).

"Le Triomphant (S616) is the French Navy's ballistic missile nuclear-powered submarine, built by DCN in Cherbourg."The missile carries a thermonuclear warhead, developed by the Commissariat a l'Energie Atomique, with six multiple re-entry vehicles (MRVs), each of 150kt, in the TN-71 warhead. The range is 6,000km.

The new enhanced M51 missile, due to enter service in 2010, weighs more than 50t and will carry a warhead with 12 MIRVS, and have an increased range of 8,000km. The submarine is equipped with a SAD strategic data system for control of the M45 ballistic missile. 

EADS Space Transportation received a production contract for the new enhanced M51 missile in December 2004.

The M51 is due to enter service from 2010 on Le Terrible and then be retrofitted to the other vessels of the class. The missile weighs more than 50t, carries a warhead with six MIRVS and has an increased range of 8,000km. Sagem is providing the new navigation and guidance system, which will contribute to the first hit accuracy of the M51. A successful first test firing of the M-51, without the warhead, took place in November 2006.

The submarine's surface-to-surface missile is the Exocet SM39 supplied by MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale). Target range and bearing data is downloaded from the submarine's SAT tactical data system and the DLA 4A weapon control system into the Exocet's computer.

The SM39 in a launch capsule is launched from the submarine's torpedo tubes using a gas generator. The launch capsule is propelled away from the submarine and clear of the surface of the sea by a solid propellant motor. The missile separates from the capsule and the boost motor is ignited. The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile approaches the target at speeds over Mach 0.9 and the range is 50km. The Exocet's 165kg high-explosive shaped charge warhead is armed with a delayed impact fuse and a proximity fuse. 

Torpedoes

The submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of 18 ECAN L5 mod 3 torpedoes and Exocet missiles. The torpedo, armed with a 150kg warhead, is equipped with both active and passive homing. The range is over 9km and the speed 35kt.

Electronic warfare

The DR 3000U electronic support system is supplied by Thales, based in Malakoff, France. DR 3000U is a radar warning receiver (French Navy designation ARUR-13) operating in D to K bands.

The system uses a masthead antenna array with omnidirectional and monopulse directional antennas and a separate periscope warning antenna. The system provides direction-finding with an accuracy greater than 1&#176;. 

"The submarine carries 16 vertically launched M45 ballistic missiles."Sensors

The submarine is fitted with the Thales Underwater Systems (formerly Thomson Marconi Sonar) DMUX 80 bow and flank array sonar suite. The DMUX 80 provides passive target ranging and interception capability. The submarine's low-frequency towed array sonar provides very long-range capability. 

The submarine's search radar, supplied by Thales, operates at I-band.

Propulsion

The submarine's propulsion system is a nuclear turbo-electric system based on a Type K15 pressure water reactor (PWR) supplying 150MW. The auxiliary propulsion system is diesel electric, with two SEMT-Pielstick 8 PA 4 v 200 SM diesels. 

Le Triomphant has a submerged speed in excess of 25kt and a surface speed of 20kt. The diving depth is more than 300m. The endurance of the submarine is over 60 days.
this is alos good optuion for pn


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## IceCold

DesiGuy said:


> how much more pakistan wants to be under debt??
> 
> 
> think little bit about your economy as well.
> 
> good luck.



Dude thats none of your bloody damn business how much debt we are in or we want to be in. If you cant contribute to the topic at hand, better yet keep your big mouth shut and dont troll here, this is a professional defence forum, if you cant debate dont debate at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## IceCold

glomex said:


> As of now and I mean 2 yrs INS Arihant will be busy with Sea trials around Bay of Bengal....and will be fully operational by yr 2011.....
> 
> So this is what Pakistan Should Do.....
> 
> 
> Short term:
> 
> 1. Lease Nuclear submarine from Countries Like france, China or any Neutral Country. And the process should be Initiated ASAP so that the Submarine is delivered within next two years.
> 
> 
> Long term:
> 
> 1. Start the process for procurement of 2 to 3 Nuclear submarines ....ASAP...



For both your suggestions, keep Pakistan's economy in mind, we cannot afford a nuclear sub and as far as leasing is concerned, well that cant be exercised either one France wont give one for obvious reasons and 2 China has yet not reached the same level in a Sub development as that of its counter parts such as Russia the US or europeans. This is exactly the reason why even for our conventional subs, we only accepted tenders from France and Germans and the German U boat was selected.


----------



## jeypore

Pakistan: Indian military acquisitions threaten peace 


Islamabad - Pakistan has accused India of threatening peace in South Asia by expanding its military arsenal. "Continued induction of new lethal weapon systems by India is detrimental to regional peace and stability," Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said late Monday. 

The statement came a day after arch-rival India launched its first nuclear-powered submarine for sea trials. 

The 6,000-ton INS Arihant, or Destroyer of Enemies, carries a crew of up to 95 and is armed with 12 ballistic missiles, each capable of carrying a 500-kilogram nuclear warhead to a target 750 kilometres away. 

"Without entering into an arms race with India, Pakistan will take all appropriate steps to safeguard its security and maintain strategic balance in South Asia," the ministry statement said. 

"Pakistan believes that maintenance of strategic balance is essential for peace and security in South Asia."

Both countries regularly test ballistic missiles and other advanced military hardware and Pakistan conducted tit-for-tat nuclear explosions in 1998. 

Pakistani defence strategists say the majority of India's arsenal is Pakistan-specific, and the stockpiles are growing amid New Delhi's increasing desire for military hegemony in the region. 

The two neighbours have fought three wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947. 

Relations between them are currently under strain over India's demands that Pakistan act firmly against the proscribed Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorist organization, which is believed to be behind the November 2008 attacks in Mumbai, which killed 170 people. 

Pakistan: Indian military acquisitions threaten peace : India World


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## Super Falcon

The Ohio Class submarines serve the United States Navy as the virtually undetectable undersea launch platforms of intercontinental missiles. The Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics, based at Groton, Connecticut, has built 18 Ohio submarines, commissioned between 1981 and 1997.

The submarines of the Pacific Fleet are based at Bangor, Washington, and those of the Atlantic Fleet at King's Bay, Georgia. The submarines spend 70 days at sea followed by 25 days in dock for overhaul.

Ohio SSGN conversion

Under the requirements of the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, START II, which was agreed in June 1992, the number of strategic missile submarines was limited to 14 from the year 2002. Rather than decommissioning these four submarines, the US Navy has converted them to SSGNs (conventionally armed nuclear-powered) submarines.

"Ohio Class submarines are virtually undetectable undersea launch platforms for intercontinental missiles."In September 2002, Electric Boat received a contract for the conversion of USS Ohio (SSBN 726), Michigan (727), Florida (728) and Georgia (729). The submarines have been refitted with up to 154 Tomahawk TLAM (land attack) or Tactical Tomahawk (block IV) missiles and are also be capable of conducting special operations missions with accommodation for Northrop Grumman advanced SEAL delivery systems (ASDS), mission control centre and 102 special operations troops.

General Dynamics Advanced Information Systems is modifying the Trident fire control system for the Tomahawk weapon control.

Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is adapting the missile launch tubes, developing a multiple all-up round canister (MAC) which provides storage and launch of up to seven Tomahawk missiles from each of the submarine's 22 missile tubes. The SSGN submarines are also fitted with the Raytheon AN/BYG-1 combat data system.

USS Ohio began conversion in November 2002, which was completed in January 2006, when the ship rejoined the fleet following sea trials in December 2005. USS Florida began the SSGN conversion in July 2003 and rejoined the fleet in April 2006. USS Michigan returned to service in June 2007. USS Georgia was delivered from conversion in December 2007 and returned to service in March 2008. SSBN's USS Pennsylvania and USS Kentucky have shifted homeport from Kings Bay to Bangor to balance the strategic force.

In November 2007, USS Ohio left for final trials off Hawaii before beginning its first operational deployment as an SSGN in the western Pacific Ocean.

In January 2003, USS Florida took part in Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) experiment 'Giant Shadow' to test the capabilites of the new SSGNs. The experiment included validation launches of two Tomahawk missiles, the first ever launch of a UUV (unmanned underwater vehicle) and insertion of a navy SEALs force. The SSGN will have the capacity to accommodate 66 SEALS.

Advanced SEAL delivery system (ASDS)

The Northrop Grumman advanced SEAL delivery system (ASDS) is a submersible for the delivery of US Navy SEALs and combat gear to the shore. Each Ohio SSGN has had its two forward-most missile tubes converted into ASDS capable lock-out chambers. ASDS is equipped with multiple sonars, GPS/ inertial navigation, communications and electronic support measures (ESM). It has also been fitted to Los Angeles Class submarines USS Charlotte (SSN-766) and the USS Greeneville (SSN-772) and is to equip the Virginia Class SSNs.

In March 2008, USS Michigan successfully completed the operational evaluation of ASDS across a range of operational conditions.

Missiles

The Ohio Class submarine is equipped with the Trident strategic ballistic missile from Lockheed Martin Missiles and Space. The Trident was built in two versions, Trident I (C4), which is being phased out, and the larger and longer-range Trident II (D5), which entered service in 1990.

"The Ohio Class SSGNs are conventionally armed nuclear-powered submarines."The first eight submarines, (SSBN 726 to 733 inclusive) were equipped with Trident I and the following ten (SSBN 734 to 743) carry the Trident II. Conversion of the four Trident I submarines remaining after START II (Henry M Jackson, Alabama, Alaska and Nevada) to Trident II began in 2000 and is planned to complete in 2008.

Lockheed Martin received a contract in January 2002 for the production of 12 Trident II missiles for the four submarines.

The submarine has the capacity for 24 Trident missile tubes in two rows of 12. The dimensions of the Trident II missile are 1,360cm long with a diameter of 210cm, and the weight is 59,000kg. The three-stage solid fuel rocket motor is built by ATK (Alliant Techsystems) Thiokol Propulsion.

The US Navy gives the range as 'greater than 7,360km' but this could be up to 12,000km depending on the payload mix. Missile guidance is provided by an inertial navigation system, supported by stellar navigation.

Trident II is capable of carrying up to 12 MIRVs (multiple independent re-entry vehicles), each with a yield of 100kt, although the SALT treaty limits this number to eight a missile. The circle of equal probability (the radius of the circle within which half the strikes will impact) is less than 150m. The Sperry Univac Mark 98 missile control system controls the 24 missiles. 

Torpedoes

The Ohio Class submarine is fitted with four 533mm torpedo tubes with a mk118 digital torpedo fire control system. The torpedoes are the Gould mk48 torpedoes.

The mk48 is a heavy weight torpedo with a warhead of 290kg, which has been operational in the US Navy since 1972. The torpedo can be operated with or without wire guidance and the system has active and/or passive acoustic homing.

Range is up to 50km at a speed of 40kt. After launch the torpedo carries out target search, acquisition and attack procedures delivering to a depth of 3,000ft.

Ohio countermeasures

The Ohio Class submarine is equipped with eight launchers for the mk2 torpedo decoy. Electronic warfare equipment is the WLR-10 threat warning system and the WLR-8(V) surveillance receiver from GTE of Massachusetts.

The WLR-8(V) uses seven YIG-tuned and vector-tuned superheterodyne receivers to operate from 50MHz up to J-band. An acoustic interception and countermeasures system, AN/WLY-1 from Northrop Grumman, has been developed to provide the submarine with an automatic response against torpedo attack.

"The Ohio Class submarine is equipped with eight launchers for the mk2 torpedo decoy."Sensors

The surface search, navigation and fire control radar is BPS 15A I/J-band radar. The sonar suite includes: IBM BQQ 6 passive search sonar, Raytheon BQS 13, BQS 15 active and passive high-frequency sonar, BQR 15 passive towed array from Western Electric, and the active BQR 19 navigation sonar from Raytheon. Kollmorgen Type 152 and Type 82 periscopes are fitted.

The Ohio submarines are being upgraded with the Lockheed Martin AN/BQQ-10(V4) sonar processing system under the acoustic-rapid commercial-off-the-shelf insertion (A-RCI) programme.

Propulsion

The main machinery is the pressure water reactor GE PWR S8G with two turbines providing 60,000hp and driving a single shaft. The submarine is equipped with a 325hp Magnatek auxiliary prop motor. The propulsion provides a speed in excess of 18kt surfaced and 25kt submerged.


Expand Image
Four Ohio Class submarines are being converted to SSGN (conventionally armed nuclear-powered) submarines.


----------



## IceCold

DesiGuy said:


> IceCold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude thats none of your bloody damn business how much debt we are in or we want to be in.
> 
> 
> haha, cool down, dude.
> 
> of course this is our business, pakistan is our neihgbor and we care about it.
> 
> i was just saying for your own benefit.
> 
> anyways, just wondering who will give you nucler submaine, China?
> 
> 
> ask china to improve your economy as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can shove that care of yours up your *** for all we care and as for the economy again thats none of your business and in case you didnt read my previous post i already said we have neither the means nor are we interested in a nuclear sub. So what in the hell are you babbling about.
> By the level of your post it is evident that your purpose here is to just troll and nothing more which will only shorten your stay here and nothing more.
Click to expand...


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## Super Falcon

The Russian Navy operates seven Delta IV class strategic missile submarines. The submarines operate in the Northern Fleet and are based at the Saida Guba Naval Base.

The submarines were built at the Severodvinsk Shipyard from 1981 to 1992. The first of class, K51, was commissioned in December 1985. In Russia, they are referred to as the Delfin or Dolphin class Project 667 submarines.

DESIGN

The submarine design is similar to that of Delta III (Project 667 BDR). The submarine constitutes a double-hulled configuration with missile silos housed in the inner hull.

"The Russian Navy operates seven Delta IV class strategic missile submarines."The nose horizontal hydroplanes are arranged on the sail. They can rotate to the vertical for breaking through the ice cover. The operational diving depth of the submarine is 320m with a maximum depth of 400m. The propulsion system provides a run speed of 24kt surfaced and 24kt submerged. The submarine carries supplies for an endurance of 80 days. The surface of the submarine has an acoustic coating to reduce the acoustic signature.

MISSILES

The Delta IV submarines are strategic nuclear missile submarines designed to carry out strikes on military and industrial installations and naval bases.

The submarine carries the RSM-54 Makeyev missile (NATO designation: SS-N-23 Skiff) Submarine-Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM). The RSM-54 is a three-stage liquid-propellant ballistic missile with a range of 8,300km.

The warhead consists of four to ten Multiple, Independently targeted Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) each rated at 100kt. The missile uses stellar inertial guidance to provide a Circle of Equal Probability (CEP) of 500m. The CEP value is a measure of the accuracy of strike on the target and is the radius of the circle within which half the strikes will impact.

In July 2007, the Sineva SLBM, a development of the RSM-54, entered service with the Russian Navy. Sineva is being fitted to the Delta IV class submarines. It is reported to have ten MIRVs and have a range of 8,300km.

The submarine is also capable of launching the Novator SS-N-15 Starfish anti-ship missile or mk40 anti-ship torpedoes. Starfish is armed with a 200kt nuclear warhead and has a range of up to 45km.

TORPEDOES

The submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes capable of launching all types of torpedoes, including anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-hydroacoustic devices. The system is fitted with a rapid reloading torpedo system. The submarine can carry up to 18 missiles or torpedoes. All torpedoes are accommodated in the bow section of the hull.

ELECTRONIC WARFARE

The submarines' radar warning receiver is the Brick Pulp system. The optronic mast is the Brick Spit. 

"The SSBN Delta Class IV submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes capable of launching all types of torpedoes."SENSORS

The Snoop Tray surface search radar operates at I-band. 

The sonar suite includes the hull-mounted Shark Gill sonar, which operates at low and medium frequencies in active and passive search and attack mode. The Mouse Roar active attack sonar is hull mounted and operates at high frequency. The Shark Hide flank array sonar is a passive low-frequency system. A Pelamida towed array sonar provides a very low-frequency passive search capability. The dispenser for the thin-line towed array is visible on the after fin.

COMMUNICATIONS

The submarine has two floating VLF and ELF antenna buoys to receive radio messages, target designation data and satellite navigation signals while remaining at a safe depth. 

PROPULSION

The Delta IV is nuclear-powered with two VM-4 pressure water reactors rated at 180MW. There are two turbines, type GT3A-365 rated at 27.5MW. The propulsion system drives two shafts with seven-bladed fixed-pitch propellers


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## Machoman

> yea right, but how much usa has given to pakistan?
> 
> and how much pakistan gave them?
> don't say stuff like they r fighting, because that does not count in this world.


Every penny count my friend, American first wasted billions of dollars in Iraq and now in Afghanistan. Just because of one damn guy Osama how many people died and economy go into gutter. I ask one question American have so much technology and so much source. How come they could catch one guy for past 5 years. This is shame because all the tax people pay in USA going in war for past 5 + years and result basically is zero. America have over a trillion dollar deficit who is going to pay that? America just start giving money to Pakistan few months ago so&#8230; Please don&#8217;t start here


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## Super Falcon

desi guy who gave u that nuke submarine which u call ideginous i tell u what u got the blue prints of subl from russia any way china will give us nuke submarine if we ask them and i must tell u if u got nuke sub it is not end of the world their are severla solutions for ur nuke which pn can acquire


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## Machoman

> You can shove that care of yours up your *** for all we care and as for the economy again thats none of your business and in case you didnt read my previous post i already said we have neither the means nor are we interested in a nuclear sub. So what in the hell are you babbling about.


Calm down my friend he is just expressing his view and I think we all are, so I think we do not need get hyped up here. Cool dude..


----------



## Super Falcon

As a cruise-missile submarine, the Oscar was designed primarily to attack NATO aircraft carrier battle groups. To cope with its resource problems, the Russian Navy, in the early 1990s, made an effort at preserving its core submarine force capabilities. The Russian Navy continued to invest in new construction. In the late 1990s it completed several new submarines of the third generation Oscar II. 11 of the larger Oscar II submarines were built between 1985 and 1999 at the Sevmash yard in Severodvinsk. Three have been decommissioned and one, the Kursk, sank. Two Oscar II submarines are active with the Northern Fleet and five with the Pacific Fleet.

DESIGN

Designed to deliver missile blows on groups of ships and coastal installations, the submarine constitutes an updated version of Project 949 with one additional compartment to improve the inner arrangement of the armament and equipment.

The Oscar II is a double-hulled design, and is divided into ten major compartments. The reinforced rounded cover of the sail is intended to break through the ice of the Artic ice cap. The two periscopes, radio-sextant and radar masts are located within the retractable devices area. The HF and UHF radio-masts, radio direction-finder masts and satellite communication and navigation masts are located on the airshaft to feed compressors. The submarine is fitted with a floating antenna buoy to receive radio messages, target designation data and satellite navigation signals at a great depth and under the ice. The bow horizontal hydroplanes are retracted into the hull. The main mechanisms have modular design and two-cascade shock-absorbing system.

As with other Russian submarines, the Oscar features a double hull, comprising an inner pressure hull and an outer hydrodynamic hull. The 3.5m separation between the inner and outer hulls on the Oscar provides significant reserve buoyancy, and improved survivability against conventional torpedoes. These large submarines are said to be slow to dive and manoeuvre, though they are credited with a submerged speed of about 30 knots &#8211; sufficient to keep pace with their targets. 

The improved Oscar II is about 10m longer than the Oscar I, possibly making room for a quieter propulsion system, and features upgraded electronic systems. The Oscar II is also characterized by a substantially enlarged fin, which should improve underwater manoeuvrability. 

OSCAR II WEAPONS SYSTEMS
The submarine is equipped with 24 SS-N-19 Granit (NATO codename "Shipwreck") cruise missiles with a range of 550km. The missile has a length of 10.5m and weighs 6.9t with a warhead weighing 1000kg. Its speed is Mach 1.5. Under the START treaty, nuclear warheads for these missiles have been replaced with high explosive warheads. The missiles, which are launched while the submarine is submerged, are fired from tubes fixed at an angle of approximately 40&#176;. The tubes, arranged in two rows of twelve, are each covered by six hatches on each side of the sail, with each hatch covering a pair of tubes. The launchers are placed between the inner pressure hull and the outer hydrodynamic hull.

The torpedo tubes fire both torpedoes and shorter range anti-ship missiles, and a combination of some two dozen weapons are carried including the SS-N-16 missile. The SS-N-16 has a range of 50km and is powered by a liquid fuel turbojet engine. It can carry either an explosive warhead or a Type 40 torpedo.

In the 1980s the Rubin Design Bureau was responsible for developing a number of third-generation nuclear submarines with cruise missiles, including Projects 949 ("Granit", "Oscar I") and 949A ("Antey", "Oscar II"). The Bureau took the lead in using naval cruise missiles, designing the first cruise missile nuclear submarine &#8211; Project 659 ("Echo I"), then Project 675 ("Echo II") and related modifications.

THE KURSK DISASTER
On 12 August 2000, the Oscar II nuclear-powered cruise missile submarine, Kursk (K 141), sank in the Barents Sea, with the loss of all 118 crew. Commissioned in 1994, the Kursk was part of the Russian Northern Fleet. From Norwegian seismological records, it appeared that the submarine was destroyed by two explosions. A subsequent enquiry confirmed that these were caused by the explosion of a Type 65 high test peroxide (HTP) 650mm torpedo, which triggered the explosion in the weapons compartment that caused the vessel to sink. The blast was caused by highly volatile torpedo propellant that leaked and came in contact with kerosene and metal. Vain efforts to rescue any surviving crew were aided by the UK's LR5 submarine rescue vehicle and a Norwegian diving team. 

The Kursk was raised in October 2001 and towed to the Russian naval shipyard in Murmansk. The forward weapons compartment was cut out prior to lifting and sections were later lifted in May 2002. Wreckage remaining on the seabed was blown up. The nuclear reactors and Granit cruise missiles were all recovered. The salvage operation was carried out by two Dutch companies, Mammoet Worldwide and Smit International.


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## Super Falcon

stop fighting and discuss on the thread which is given and desiguy today america is a super power because of us remember the days when soviet union use to rule the world including usa and usa never have courage to have a war 1 0n 1 with them thats why the came bagging to pakistan for help than we helped u by our mujhahidens in afghanistan and soviet union crappled as a super power and u became super power so dont remind us what u gave us what we gave u u can never ever compare it what u give us now


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## Super Falcon

any way the usa super power days are very near to end when ur nation will be same like russia next big thing will be china which even now rules the world market hope in few years china will take on world economy thats why USA is scared and helping india


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

i find very funny here when people gives certain preposition of"taking out he nuke sub"

do they really know that...this is the only vessel which carry a fully integrated....at one place.......nuclear missiles......not like.....in land where...every part of missiles is kept along the length and breadth of the country....for safety........now u imagine the potential threat froma anuclear submarine........armed with live nuclear missile...that to in numbers.....and just press of a butoom and....boooooom........

so this is potentially the biggest threat and the last line........bigger than any stealth plane....any armoured battery.....and to an extent....bigger than nuclear missiles at land or at air......because here u dont know......from where...and when the enemy is going to strike....very dangerous business....further...it not only ends here.....to maintain a nuclea sub....u need a separate command and control.......this is even more critical than for missiles which are available on land or on air......here the missiles are nuclear tipped...ready....on a trigger of button.....


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## LiberalPakistani

Pakistan Navy should induct a couple of new submires and test ICBM's


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## Jako

Why icbm???


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## Super Falcon

desi guy should be banned it seems he is wearing skin of usa but from he is anti pakistan indian


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> i find very funny here when people gives certain preposition of"taking out he nuke sub"
> 
> do they really know that...this is the only vessel which carry a fully integrated....at one place.......nuclear missiles......not like.....in land where...every part of missiles is kept along the length and breadth of the country....for safety........now u imagine the potential threat froma anuclear submarine........armed with live nuclear missile...that to in numbers.....and just press of a butoom and....boooooom........
> 
> so this is potentially the biggest threat and the last line........bigger than any stealth plane....any armoured battery.....and to an extent....bigger than nuclear missiles at land or at air......because here u dont know......from where...and when the enemy is going to strike....very dangerous business....further...it not only ends here.....to maintain a nuclea sub....u need a separate command and control.......this is even more critical than for missiles which are available on land or on air......here the missiles are nuclear tipped...ready....on a trigger of button.....



i think you might be referring to me.. let me tell you... pak is already in advance stage of producing Submarine launch cruise missiles which will be fitted in Augosta-90B AIP as well as future sub.. then your stances ends right there.. lol... btw.. i was merely talking about one on one situation.. and it does not matter if you are carrying SLBM or 12+ launch tubes.. i believe U-214 still has one of the best hunt down shot down capability..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Myth_buster_1

LiberalPakistani said:


> i want to see Pakistan Missile ICBM test that's the best answer and icrease of Naval Support force.



sir g... that was back in the days when politicians had some dignity... but now dont you see who is on the seat???


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## Gin ka Pakistan

If Pakistan leases Gwadar port to China then Pakistan can make Indian sub a direct problem of Chinese too. One and one is eleven.


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## IceCold

DesiGuy said:


> IceCold said:
> 
> 
> 
> why r u being so mad?
> dude, don't show me that attitude, ok
> 
> so you are not interested in nuclear sub?
> um...i doubt.
> so why the hell your navy officer is so worried about it?
> 
> DAWN.COM | Pakistan | India?s nuclear submarine to trigger arms race: Pak Navy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get lost! I have already wasted enough time.
Click to expand...


----------



## IceCold

LiberalPakistani said:


> Pakistan Navy should induct a couple of new submires and test ICBM's



And what purpose will testing an ICMB serve? Seriously guys get a hold of your imagination. Pakistan will do nothing and that is the only truth, all this talk about changing the balance of power by the PN is for political purpose and thats about it.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

DesiGuy said:


> dude, i came to america when i was 9, and since than i am living in US.
> 
> 
> honestly speaking, i am not against pakistan, but i am against the terriosm that they support.
> 
> don't bother to tell me, that pakistan does not support terriosm, i know we both disagree with each other.



duuuuude.. you are a perfect example of a ABCD.. so what ever the media is telling you must be the truth? 
son.. if pak was supporting terrorism in india then by now india would be somthing like Afghanistan.. lolzzz


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> i think you might be referring to me.. let me tell you... pak is already in advance stage of producing Submarine launch cruise missiles which will be fitted in Augosta-90B AIP as well as future sub.. then your stances ends right there.. lol... btw.. i was merely talking about one on one situation.. and it does not matter if you are carrying SLBM or 12+ launch tubes.. i believe U-214 still has one of the best hunt down shot down capability..




now this is really very funny.........although i donot keep neither indian or pakistani stance...but again...u are saying "best hunt down shot down capability"..............please elaborate on that....even if there are signatures from this nuke sub...which a U boat recognises....does the commander of the U-boat...will ever try to hit that nuke sub......just a question to you...............


further consider it without snorkelling... nearly 20 days for Uboat and 100 days for nuke sub.....even if the both commander play hide and seek game...a conventional sub..will have to give it up.......


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> now this is really very funny.........although i donot keep neither indian or pakistani stance...but again...u are saying "best hunt down shot down capability"..............please elaborate on that....even if there are signatures from this nuke sub...which a U boat recognises....does the commander of the U-boat...will ever try to hit that nuke sub......just a question to you...............



yepppp.. kaaaboooom.. the nuclear sub gone!!


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> yepppp.. kaaaboooom.. the nuclear sub gone!!



 good ......u r smarter than i think...


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> further consider it without snorkelling... nearly 20 days for Uboat and 100 days for nuke sub.....even if the both commander play hide and seek game...a conventional sub..will have to give it up.......



first of all.. i dough future pak indo full scale conflicts are going to last 20+ days.. and plus type214 is not a WWII sub... snorkeling does not mean a 100% death!


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> good ......u r smarter than i think...



ok wait.. so your concern is the sub tipped with nukes? or what??


----------



## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> first of all.. i dough future pak indo full scale conflicts are going to last 20+ days.. and plus type214 is not a WWII sub... snorkeling does not mean a 100&#37; death!



in my last post....i had already given up...u won.....


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## Super Falcon

desi guy when same terroerist act happen in gujrat when bajrangi ripped the stomach of pragnent woman u say he must be in jail he kills innocent muslim and their is no bigger crime than that still u said to put him in jail not to hang him if same thing happen with u hindus u take symthy of world by saying terroe attck by muslims on india and must kill those terrorists man u should go to cycatrist than come and talk i respect u as our friend but ur words says it all that ur anti islam


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> desi guy when same terroerist act happen in gujrat when bajrangi ripped the stomach of pragnent woman u say he must be in jail he kills innocent muslim and their is no bigger crime than that still u said to put him in jail not to hang him if same thing happen with u hindus u take symthy of world by saying terroe attck by muslims on india and must kill those terrorists man u should go to cycatrist than come and talk i respect u as our friend but ur words says it all that ur anti islam




and how do we put nuclear submarine discussion on this post .......


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> in my last post....i had already given up...u won.....



please please... tell me tell...


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## graphican

DesiGuy said:


> dudeeee, you r right!
> 
> i did not say , pakistan is supporting terroists In India!
> you r saying that.
> 
> indeed, pakistan is supporting terriosts in jammu and kashmir and look what happens, jammu and kashmir became like afghanistan.



How nice! Sweet little analysis of humanity lovers who has bloomed flowers in Afghanistan. Ofcours you should be worried about other gardens that are not being taken care as good as you are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Aww such a lovely dovely babies you are. *MUA* *MUA* *MUA* Huny bunch do you want some candies?


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## TOPGUN

Forget the nuke sub for Pak right now or even later in the future ! we need the 3 subs eather from france or germany! when ever if GOD forgive the showdown happens we shall see to it!


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## graphican

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> If Pakistan leases Gwadar port to China then Pakistan can make Indian sub a direct problem of Chinese too. One and one is eleven.



We should take responsibility of our concerns and security on our shoulders. China is a supporter, not solution to all our problems.

By the way, why do we need a "tit for tat" for every single bit of development that India does? India has many times more human, natural and economic resources than we do and the gap between our strengths is rational. If they have a submarine, we better have some anti-submarine technology and the issue is solved. Now this is where Pakistan can look towards China, France or other friendly nations.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> please please... tell me tell...



Brief comparison of Nuclear vs Conventional Sub capability / advantages / disadvantages.

1) Cost &#8211; A modern nuclear submarine is at least twice as expensive as a conventional submarine. A U-214 will cost ~ $400-500 million per sub, while even small French subs such as Rubis Amethyste Class cost close to $1 billion per sub. Chinese SSN are probably cheaper but there are no public figures available on that. So those who reason that one should have a larger fleet of conventional subs have a valid argument.


2) Sensor Suite &#8211; Modern conventional subs have quite advanced sensors. We know at least in the case if French that many sensors from their nuclear sub programmes have found their way into the conventional subs. 

3) Weapons &#8211; With the exception of Ballistic missiles, conventional subs can deploy all of the weapons a nuclear sub can deploy. However, a nuclear sub is typically bigger so it can carry a bigger payload.

4) Stealth &#8211; Modern nuclear subs are much quieter than those of the past generation but even the quietest nuclear sub makes more noise than a conventional sub running on batteries. A conventional sub running on it batteries is very very difficult to find, specially in littoral waters. The stories of US nuclear subs being unable to find NATO conventional subs in exercises are well know. For a nuclear sub, there is noise from pumps, steam and electric plant, all of which can be picked up by a good sonar system. But the littoral water also offer the nuclear sub the same protection in terms of masking its noise as they would for a conventional sub, so that environment is difficult for sub hunting in any case. I once read a very good article on this specific topic of how a nuclear sub may try and offset some of its stealth disadvantage, I will try and find it. 

5) Power, Range and Endurance &#8211; These are the biggest advantages that nuclear subs have over conventional submarine. They are truly independent of the surface for as long as their food supplies last. The nuclear reactor provides all the energy needed. They make their own water and oxygen, their batteries can be recharged even while deeply submerged. They can stay on-station, submerged for months. This was a huge tactical advantage. 

For a conventional submarine, AIP has considerably improved the submerged time. For example Agosta 70 can stay underwater for ~ 4 days at 3.5kts with a range of 350 kts, for Agosta 90, AIP improves this by a factor of 3-5 to 10-15 days. However, they key here to understand that the range underwater is considerably decreased particularly if they go fast. U- 214 has a12,000nm range &#8211; but that is only if it is surfaced (which makes it quite vulnerable); also, its max speed is 10-12kts on surface. Its submerged range is much reduced at 420 nmi (at 8 kts) and 1248 nmi (at 4kts) on AIP/fuel cells. So while theoretically it can stay under water for 2-3 weeks, its speed and range are strongly affected in those conditions.

A conventional sub speed tops out at ~20kts under water (Agosta 90 is listed as 17kts). A nuclear sub can do at least 30kts. This considerably decreases transit time to its target and they ability to catch or out run the enemy. 


For a Pakistan / India scenerio, a nuclear sub would offer the PN several operational advantages and flexibility.

1) A nuclear sub will give PN unlimited range to be threat to the entire Indian coast including the assets in the Bay of Bengal. IN will no longer be able to hide its carrier there without significant protection. Indians have built a lot of their strategic sites far south to stay out of PAF&#8217;s range. While many of SSMs can target those, this will give added options (specially when armed with cruise missiles). While a SSK can be deployed to these locations, its transit time and range are no match for an SSN as I have previously described. A nulcear sub can get to the Bay of Bengal in under 4 days at 30kts and under 2 days to the southern tip of the Indian peninsula - and it can do this while submerged to escape detection. If a U-214 attempts this entire journey submerged, it will take it 10 days, to go the journey quicker as faster speed, it will have to surface to charge batteries as the fuel cells will get depleted much quicker at fast speeds. This will make it much more vulnerable.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

graphican said:


> We should take responsibility of our concerns and security on our shoulders. China is a supporter, not solution to all our problems.
> 
> By the way, why do we need a "tit for tat" for every single bit of development that India does? India has many times more human, natural and economic resources than we do and the gap between our strengths is rational. If they have a submarine, we better have some anti-submarine technology and the issue is solved. Now this is where Pakistan can look towards China, France or other friendly nations.



I was refereeing to in case Pakistan faces navel blockade in future so it will block Gwadar port too so China will make sure it never happens if they are there.
You need protection from the bully if they are big


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## toxic_pus

Pakistan's biggest disadvantage is its coastline. It is just too short. Given the limited number of ports, naval and civilian, theoretically it very much possible for IN to keep track of every single vessel comming in or sailing out of the ports (which in any case they probably do). The vessels can then be stalked on priority basis (IN doesn't have enough submarine to stalk all the vessels). That includes, the apparently invincible U-214. So it is possible for IN, at least theoretically, to know the whereabouts of vessels, that IN considers as potential threat. On the other hand INS Arihant will probably be berthed on the west coast of India, making it impossible for PN to keep track of its departure or arrival schedule, unless of course China comes to the rescue. IN doesn't have this advantage with conventional subs. 

What this means is that, Pak will be practically clueless about the location of IN nuclear sub(s), whereas it is very much possible for IN to be very much aware of its adversaries location and can take it out, if necessary, without too much hassle. All this "best hunt down shot down capability" will come to naught then.

Just my 2 paisa.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

so from above analysis....my friends u all know what india has acquired.....quite threatning...


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## PAFAce

You do not require a nuclear submarine to counter a nuclear submarine. What a ridiculous idea that is. It all depends on your strategy. Pakistan cannot afford and does not need a nuclear submarine anytime soon (up to 10 years). I do believe that it will be a worthwhile effort to begin our own efforts of nuclear submarine design, but let's not panic. India's plans are much grander than Pakistan's. Also, we must keep in mind that Pakistan Army and Navy have always been good at countering Indian impetuosity with cool, calm intelligence, severely blunting, if not nullifying, Indian advantages on most occasions. It is the Pakistani Air Force that lacks in this regard, unfortunately, and has not yet found its way.

Hence, let's wait before we make any brash moves. Indian nuclear submarine is like a good horror flick, it's scary at first, but the effect will wear off as we realize that it's no big threat to us.

Also, DesiGuy, your days here seem to be very numbered. This forum is a place where intelligence is welcomed, not biased-agenda and ignorant-low-blows. I suggest you continue to behave the way you are, so that we can see the back of you soon.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> You do not require a nuclear submarine to counter a nuclear submarine. What a ridiculous idea that is. It all depends on your strategy. Pakistan cannot afford and does not need a nuclear submarine anytime soon (up to 10 years). I do believe that it will be a worthwhile effort to begin our own efforts of nuclear submarine design, but let's not panic. India's plans are much grander than Pakistan's. Also, we must keep in mind that Pakistan Army and Navy have always been good at countering Indian impetuosity with cool, calm intelligence, severely blunting, if not nullifying, Indian advantages on most occasions. It is the Pakistani Air Force that lacks in this regard, unfortunately, and has not yet found its way



i disagree with you.................. for land based defense..there can be a strategy....for air based defense there cann be strategy....for on-sea based...there can be a strategy............but my dear friend....here comes the father of all STEALTH..........a nuclear submarine deep inside water........there is no strategy...to defend this...until on the opposite side there is another one to lock horns...


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

pls remember a nuclear submarine is a potential threat to air, sea, land based platforms.......whereas vice versa is not true...and even if vice versa is true....asians do not have that " tested and effective technology "presently................anybody correct me if i am wrong


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## Super Falcon

our anti submarine Z 10 also can do the job against ur nuke sub and if war goes between us china will send its half of navy to gawadar


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> our anti submarine Z 10 also can do the job against ur nuke sub and if war goes between us china will send its half of navy to gawadar



i donot have neither PN or IN stance......but pls elaborate....how?


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui

you are over hyping nuclear powered subs capabilities.. high costs do not necessarily means you have the best thing... only if pakistan was few thousand km apart from india would those nuclear powered subs really posed their full limit threat.. first of all... and again.. what i was trying to emphases that Type-214 will be more then enough to take on indian nuclear sub one on one. i have no idea how you came up with a conclusion that nuclear powered sub is threat to AIR?? while conventional powered sub like TYPE-214 pose no threat to sea,air,and land?? what BS?? infact ever heard of *IDAS*? this weapon was on display along with German U-boat in pakistan defence exibition.. i man sure once the deal is done, IDAS will be part of weapons package. *this will make our U-boat true ANTI-air,land,sea,sub capable submarine! *


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> i donot have neither PN or IN stance......but pls elaborate....how?



uffff. plez dont bother going into this off topic... Z-10 is just a average anti-sub chopper.... nothing more.. case closed..


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## SEAL

we should have atleast 2 nuclear submarines for minimum credible deterrence only two countries will ready to sell us FRANCE or CHINA,
French Triomphant class or Chinese type 094


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## Myth_buster_1

fox said:


> we should have atleast 2 nuclear submarines for minimum credible deterrence only two countries will ready to sell us FRANCE or CHINA,
> French Triomphant class or Chinese type 094



opting for current nuclear subs will only be a knee jerk reaction.... PN should first acquire 6-9 type-214... plus nuclear subs are very expensive.. nuclear subs are like air craft carrier to PN.. meaning PN has other priority to full fill.. and mind you... Pakistan has a very small coastal line..


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> i have no idea how you came up with a conclusion that nuclear powered sub is threat to AIR??



....good point.....as i said i don't keep neither PN or IN stance.........well i doubt they are not working on this......indians are now mastering the art of air defense system(already tested).......probably....one day u hear that also.....but for present it is a probability


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> ....good point.....as i said i don't keep neither PN or IN stance.........well i doubt they are not working on this......indians are now mastering the art of air defense system.......probably....one day u hear that also.....but for present it is a probability



so are you trying to tell us.. that indians will be the first one after germans to come up with Sub launch anti-aircraft weapon? 
plez enlighten us what indian art has won your mind?


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> plez enlighten us what indian art has won your mind?




 well if u pls. enlighten me....what are the hinderances that it cannot be developed.......


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## maverick2009

Pakistan will not be able to match India SUB 4 SUB or Carrier 4 Carrier. 

The indians are set to Spend $100 billion over the next 10 YEARS on their Armee Forces with the Navy Alone Receving $25 billion for 5 nuke subs 2 new 40k meduim sized carriers and up to 15 new Stealth Ships (destroyers & frigates) . This excvludes the Scorpene deal already signed. 

This is a direct result of the massive Gap between The Indian & Pakistani GDPs that has widened to 8 fold in india,s advantage. 

Pakistan will have to use its nuke card end of story.


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## Myth_buster_1

maverick2009 said:


> Pakistan will not be able to match India SUB 4 SUB or Carrier 4 Carrier.
> 
> The indians are set to Spend $100 billion over the next 10 YEARS on their Armee Forces with the Navy Alone Receving $25 billion for 5 nuke subs 2 new 40k meduim sized carriers and up to 15 new Stealth Ships (destroyers & frigates) . This excvludes the Scorpene deal already signed.
> 
> This is a direct result of the massive Gap between The Indian & Pakistani GDPs that has widened to 8 fold in india,s advantage.
> 
> Pakistan will have to use its nuke card end of story.





uneducated indian FOOL!

as usual your stupid rants never ends.. cant live without satisfying your loser ego.. have you ever tried sticking up to the topic???? 
well.. i am not forgetting.. this forum is not BR.. 
btw.. enjoy the freedom of speech.. we wont get it on your forums..

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> Pakistan will not be able to match India SUB 4 SUB or Carrier 4 Carrier.
> 
> The indians are set to Spend $100 billion over the next 10 YEARS on their Armee Forces with the Navy Alone Receving $25 billion for 5 nuke subs 2 new 40k meduim sized carriers and up to 15 new Stealth Ships (destroyers & frigates) . This excvludes the Scorpene deal already signed.
> 
> This is a direct result of the massive Gap between The Indian & Pakistani GDPs that has widened to 8 fold in india,s advantage.
> 
> Pakistan will have to use its nuke card end of story




i think u exaggerated a lot....pls tell me how as far as i know from internet 54&#37; of the armed forces budget goes directly on salaries and pensions...i might be wrong..pls correct me....


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## Machoman

To DesiGuy Where u originally from? Your ancestors?


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> well if u pls. enlighten me....what are the hinderances that it cannot be developed.......



first of all... india has to find a foreigner producer of this weapon.... if germany is willing to joint venture with indians then indian subs may have this capability in 7-8 years.. no other country has this capability other then germany so its a BIG NO for india that they can produce this (Indigenous weapon)..


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> Pakistan will not be able to match India SUB 4 SUB or Carrier 4 Carrier.
> 
> The indians are set to Spend $100 billion over the next 10 YEARS on their Armee Forces with the Navy Alone Receving $25 billion for 5 nuke subs 2 new 40k meduim sized carriers and up to 15 new Stealth Ships (destroyers & frigates) . This excvludes the Scorpene deal already signed.
> 
> This is a direct result of the massive Gap between The Indian & Pakistani GDPs that has widened to 8 fold in india,s advantage.
> 
> Pakistan will have to use its nuke card end of story




so what i calculated it is around $28 BN this year...out of which 54&#37; goes on pensions and salary....so it remains less than $13-14 BN to aquire new technolgy..................and u say $100 BN.......are u from this planet...


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> first of all... india has to find a foreigner producer of this weapon.... if germany is willing to joint venture with indians then indian subs may have this capability in 7-8 years.. no other country has this capability other then germany so its a BIG NO for india that they can produce this (Indigenous weapon)..




so as u say ....here comes the indian art.which u were asking me before.....LOL..........i like indian's.....because they are clever people when it comes to diplomacy.......and i hope u will also agree on this.....India has good relations with most of the european nations.....including Germany.....although i say it again...it is a probability....but good enough....(and also remember i keep independent stance)..........i hope we discussed on this issue a lot...let us close this and move ahead.....


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## Myth_buster_1

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> so as u say ....here come indian art...LOL.....which u were asking before.....i like indian's.....because they are clever people when it comes to diplomacy.......and i hope u will also agree on this.....India has good relations with most of the european nations.....including Germany.....although i say it again...it is a probability....but good enough....(and also remember i keep independent stance)..........i hope we discussed on this issue a lot...let us close this and move ahead.....



well.. you are right 

i have better words for the indians.. they are like JEW SMART! 
who doesnt wanna be friends with EU??


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

cool...


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## waz

If you are looking at a strategic basis, we currently have no counter, as this forms part of India&#8217;s triad nuclear forces setup. In order for us to do the same, we too would have to go down the nuclear submarine route. 

In terms of naval warfare it doesn&#8217;t do squat, as such a submarine would be hunted down by the latest generation diesel submarines. The joint US/Australian exercises involving the Australian Collin&#8217;s submarine showed this, where the &#8220;Waller&#8221; and later &#8220;Sheean&#8221; engaged and destroyed US nuclear submarines. A Swedish &#8220;Gotland&#8221; class also &#8220;sank&#8221; a US nuclear submarine during exercises, which triggered off a whole study into effective measures against such submarines.


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## ironman

*Indonesia and Turkey to work together on anti-submarine warfare aircraft*
Indonesian aviation specialist PT Dirgantara has formed a partnership with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to develop a prototype of an anti-submarine warfare version of the CN-235 maritime patrol aircraft, a Dirgantara official told Jane's on 16 July. "We signed a deal with TAI that allowed our engineers to stay in Turkey to prepare the prototype," said the official (Received via email from Jane's.) [first posted to Jane's Defence Weekly - Your first line of defence - 17 July 2009] 

What about joining this?


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## paritosh

@waz
the outcome of those exercise can't undermine the importance of having a nuclear sub....can it?
if your point is that a nuke sub can be hunted..it's intelligent and understandable.
but if you intend to put a diesel-electric sub ahead of a nuke sub...then we can talk about it.


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## Hutchroy

*Pakistan will not join maritime arms race : Admiral*

By Zhang Haizhou and Hou Lei (Chinadaily.com.cn)

India&#8217;s launch of its first indigenously-made nuclear submarine is a &#8220;disturbing factor&#8221; for Indian Ocean&#8217;s security, Admiral Noman Bashir, Pakistan&#8217;s chief of naval staff, said in Beijing on Tuesday.

*Bashir, who is in China to witness the commissioning of the first China-made frigate for Islamabad, also said Pakistan would not join in the maritime &#8220;arms race&#8221;.*

&#8220;We knew about it (India&#8217;s nuclear marine plan) a long time ago,&#8221; Bashir said. &#8220;A nuclear submarine could be a disturbing factor&#8221; as it would &#8220;jeopardize the security&#8221; of the Indian Ocean.

The Pakistani naval head said the Indian Ocean is the most important one in the world.

India on Sunday launched &#8216;INS-Arihant&#8217; (Destroyer of the enemy), the first nuclear-powered submarine built on its soil, joining just five other countries that can design and construct such vessels.

Despite of calling the move as &#8220;a matter of concern&#8221;, Bashir, however, didn&#8217;t consider the neighboring country&#8217;s military leap-forward as a major security threat for Islamabad&#8217;s own navy.

Instead, he said his navy&#8217;s key jobs would be combating terrorism, piracy, and other illegal uses of the sea as drug trafficking, and protecting the sea lines of communication in the Indian Ocean.

&#8220;We are not focused on India. India is a neighbor, so we must have good relationship (with it),&#8221; Bashir said, while suggesting both countries continue dialogues to improve ties.

Bashir made the remarks only hours late after Pakistan Foreign Office expressed concern over India&#8217;s introduction of the nuclear submarine, according to media report.

Saying the INS-Arihant could trigger off an arms race in South Asia, the Pakistan Foreign Office has said that such a step would destabilize the region and would have a detrimental effect on regional peace.

&#8220;Continued induction of new lethal weapon systems by India is detrimental to regional peace and stability,&#8221; Pakistan Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said. Basit said Pakistan would take all measures to ensure strategic balance in the region.

&#8220;Without entering into an arms race with India, Pakistan will take all appropriate steps to safeguard its security and maintain strategic balance in South Asia,&#8221; Basit said.

*But Ye Hailin, a South Asia studies expert at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said India was not targeting on Pakistan by introducing the vessel.

&#8220;India does not need to use a nuclear submarine to do so,&#8221; Ye told China Daily, noting neither Pakistan would join the arms race or waste money to build its own similar vessel to respond. Ye, however, said the balance of power in the Indian Ocean would shift to India&#8217;s favor by introducing the INS-Arihant.*

Despite India, only the United States, Russia, France, Britain and China had the capabilities to develop nuclear submarines until now.

China-made frigate ready to set sail for Pakistan

After visiting Beijing, Bashir is due to attend the commissioning ceremony of the first of the four F-22P frigates in Shanghai on July 30.

The vessels were ordered by the Pakistani navy from China four years ago.

The deal marks the navy&#8217;s first purchase of a major fighting unit from China. In the past, it procured such military hardware from Western countries including Britain and France.

Bashir said the commissioning of the F-22p frigates would mark &#8220;a big step forward&#8221; for the cooperation between the Chinese navy and its Pakistani counterpart.

&#8220;They will contribute for the security of the Indian Ocean,&#8221; Bashir commented on the prospective role of the China-made frigates.

He also said his country would &#8220;look beyond the F-22p&#8221;, in hoping for more cooperation with China, whose military industry is of &#8220;high quality&#8221;.


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## PAFAce

waz said:


> In terms of naval warfare it doesnt do squat, as such a submarine would be hunted down by the latest generation diesel submarines. The joint US/Australian exercises involving the Australian Collins submarine showed this, where the Waller and later Sheean engaged and destroyed US nuclear submarines. A Swedish Gotland class also sank a US nuclear submarine during exercises, which triggered off a whole study into effective measures against such submarines.


Thank you for the information, waz. It solidies my point, a nuke submarine does not exactly fit into Pakistan's grand strategy.



paritosh said:


> @waz
> the outcome of those exercise can't undermine the importance of having a nuclear sub....can it?
> if your point is that a nuke sub can be hunted..it's intelligent and understandable.
> but if you intend to put a diesel-electric sub ahead of a nuke sub...then we can talk about it.


No the outcome of those exercise doesn't undermine te nuke sub, it's importance remains. I don't think that's what he meant. Nuclear submarines have many advantages over diesel-powered, and India will no doubt enjoy all those advantages, but it is not the end all of naval warfare, and neither is it invincible from a Pakistani standpoint (as many of your countrymen believe). Pakistan Navy _will_ lose sleep over it, for a few months, but eventually I trust them to develop counter-strategies. This kind of gives away my position on ouioui's statement, there is definitely much strategy involved in naval warfare as well. Every great weapon has a weakness, and everything can be countered, history is proof of this. Military thinking is based on measures and counter-measures, and this game never ends.

I must admit, though, India has played a real Ace here. It's going to be tough to trump this one.

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## EagleEyes

I believe inductions of the U boats would be good enough. Pakistan shouldn't be in arms race, weaponry such as these will come over time. Pakistan KNEW that it India is going towards this path.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

jalip said:


> will U boats will be sufficent to defend against indian threat are we have to go for neculear sub in near future



Pakistan does NOT need nuclear submarines if they don't intend to project power at great distances, regular diesel/gas-turbine subs will be more than sufficient deterrant. What is needed is LARGE NUMBERS of subs. These can resurface and cycle. So Gwadar port is important. Pakistan needs MORE PORTS and more subs & frigates. 

There's no need for nuclear sub since pakistan does not wish to intrude on other nations territory (unlike ....).


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## jeypore

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> There's no need for nuclear sub *since pakistan does not wish to intrude on other nations territory (unlike India)*.




That beggs me to wonder, China also does not wish to intrude on other nations, why are they working towards nuclear submarines and secreat bases for it? hummmmmmmm.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

jeypore said:


> That beggs me to wonder, China also does not wish to intrude on other nations, why are they working towards nuclear submarines and secreat bases for it? hummmmmmmm.





China's nuclear sub is for safeguarding trade routes and protecting the nation -- whereas US is to wage war in poor nations and kill innocent people. See the difference. 

I did not specifically refer to India, it was meant for ALL nations with power-projection (i.e. Germany, UK, France, Israel, US, China, Japan, India, etc). I knew someone would assume that I implied India when I didn't specifically. Personally I see nothing overly worrisome about India's ATV -- congrats to them. Honestly, it is not Asia that is overly worried about a rising India, but the white-controlled nations. USA is only 2/3 white but the whites control nearly 100% of the national politics and military (where non-whites are just cannon foddler).


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## dbc

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> China's nuclear sub is for safeguarding trade routes and protecting the nation -- whereas US is to wage war in poor nations and kill innocent people. See the difference.


Sino's right as usual; we routinely drop nuclear subs on citizens of poor hapless nations. I wonder how they fit those things on a F-16? Got to go I'm late for my KKK meeting....

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## PAFAce

jeypore said:


> That beggs me to wonder, China also does not wish to intrude on other nations, why are they working towards nuclear submarines and secreat bases for it? hummmmmmmm.


The US and China have not exactly been very friendly, historically. That is a justified threat (or was until a decade ago). But, I implore you to ignore the psychos here and engage in more intelligent discussion, as you have previously displayed you are capable of doing. India's steps will most assuredly undermine peace in the region, because anytime there is great imbalance of power, peace cannot be achieved. When there is no imbalance of power, either peace is achieved through mutual efforts, or you end up in a tense stand-off substituting for peace, aka Cold War, but no war. India may claim that China is a threat, but it seems an empty argument, since China has shown little interest in engaging in military campaigns against India. Hence, you must admit, further development of nuclear arms will not make the region any more stable. It will, however, give India what they want more than regional peace, international importance and a seat on the international bully lunch table (just like the one in high school, remember?).

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## aimarhenry

come on,guys.Pakistan is close enough to New Delhi,it's the best answer......
india's long-range missile still can't reach to any other P5 except china,that's why they desperately need the nuclear submarine

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## maqbool

India has a no first use policy which means that if employed, they stand the risk of losing their nuke ability to an opponent's first strike (opponent could be us, as in Pakistan or China.) That's why they need a fallback.
We need to spend more money on educating our people in a way that opens their eyes to the world and integrates us with the world economy. The nuke subs can come later.

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## jeypore

> PAFAce
> India's steps will most assuredly undermine peace in the region, because anytime there is great imbalance of power, peace cannot be achieved. When there is no imbalance of power, either peace is achieved through mutual efforts, or you end up in a tense stand-off substituting for peace, aka Cold War, but no war.



First of all your logic is real wrong, India is expanding it military might not only based on neighbors, but ALSO based on economic growth, try to understand that first. Secondly Pakistan is also expanding it's nuclear capabilities, if you did not know, does that constitute the furthering the cold war senario that you have given, ofcorse not. To you that constitutes expansions on newer capabilities and trashing the old. Simply India submarines have to be upgraded and the total nuclear submarines planned to be build are 8 if I am not wrong.




> India may claim that China is a threat, but it seems an empty argument, since China has shown little interest in engaging in military campaigns against India. Hence, you must admit, further development of nuclear arms will not make the region any more stable.



India does not care if China is a threat or not, what matters to India most is to be par at any occassions. India has already specified that it will remain as "No first strike". Currently, India feels that it is lagging technologically in defense related fields and needs a badly upgrade in all sectors. It has the money and the abilities to do it, why not. It is up to Pakistan to catch-up, if it feels threaten, not India's problem!!!



> It will, however, give India what they want more than regional peace, international importance and a seat on the *international bully lunch table *(*just like the one in high school, remember*?).



No, In India's perspective it will bring more regional peace. The burden of regional peace lies with Pakistan, not India. Pakistan has to step up to the plate and fix it's own mess and start growing economically for the regional peace.


Ps.

I always hated bully's in high school, I used to beat them up just to show-off with the ladies!! Just kidding!!!


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## paritosh

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Pakistan does NOT need nuclear submarines if they don't intend to project power at great distances, regular diesel/gas-turbine subs will be more than sufficient deterrant. What is needed is LARGE NUMBERS of subs. These can resurface and cycle. So Gwadar port is important. Pakistan needs MORE PORTS and more subs & frigates.
> 
> There's no need for nuclear sub since pakistan does not wish to intrude on other nations territory (unlike ....).



I expect you to know that a nuclear sub's endurance is not just about going further away from the mainland...but also in being submerged for longer periods...unlike a diesel-electric which has to charge it's batteries...and surfaces often.

this apart...there is not much difference...otherwise.


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## Myth_buster_1

paritosh said:


> I expect you to know that a nuclear sub's endurance is not just about going further away from the mainland...but also in being submerged for longer periods...unlike a diesel-electric which has to charge it's batteries...and surfaces often.
> 
> this apart...there is not much difference...otherwise.



your point is valid but to some extent..

Type-214 has all the nessesery sensors on board to make it comfortably snorkel on the surface.. the most important thing is to keep human fatigue in mind.. can they cope with 100 days of duration under water?? its like.. asking MKI pilots to conduct 72+ hours inflight missions without changing shifts... even if they do... their performance will be very very very bad compared to a pilot who just took off or is in 4-6 hours flight..


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## waz

paritosh said:


> @waz
> the outcome of those exercise can't undermine the importance of having a nuclear sub....can it?
> if your point is that a nuke sub can be hunted..it's intelligent and understandable.
> but if you intend to put a diesel-electric sub ahead of a nuke sub...then we can talk about it.



I didn&#8217;t undermine anything here friend. In actual fact I put down the edge the nuclear submarine gives first. 

Ahead, In terms of hunting other submarines, in a small setting like South Asia, yes I do and those numerous exercises are pretty vindictive of that. I&#8217;m not undermining the nuclear submarine at all, but to use it, in regions where the far stealthier diesel operates, is akin to sending it to an early, watery grave.

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## sancho

PAFAce said:


> India's steps will most assuredly undermine peace in the region, because anytime there is great imbalance of power, peace cannot be achieved. When there is no imbalance of power, either peace is achieved through mutual efforts, or you end up in a tense stand-off substituting for peace, aka Cold War, but no war. India may claim that China is a threat, but it seems an empty argument, since China has shown little interest in engaging in military campaigns against India. Hence, you must admit, further development of nuclear arms will not make the region any more stable. It will, however, give India what they want more than regional peace, international importance and a seat on the international bully lunch table (just like the one in high school, remember?).


From Pakistans point of view it will be an imbalance sure, cause it means one more thread that Pakistan need to counter. But you also have to see it from Indias point of view! These new developments are clearly made to balance the advantages China has at the moment. India is not a real nuclear thread to China, because the balistic missiles can't reach their major cities in the east. So as you said, if there is a great imballance of power, there cannot be peace. The further developments in missile and nuclear sub technology will bring more ballance and security for India.

If India had attacked you before, has missiles near to the border to reach more targets in your country, renew roads and train tracks near the border (which could be used for faster movement of troops), build many ports around your mainland, has big numbers of submarines including nuclear SSBNs, would you call it a thread, or an empty argument?
Of course a thread and we just don't want to wait till China might show interest in engaging us militarily. We try anything to prevent that and nuclear deterrence to China is a key issue.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sino's right as usual; we routinely drop nuclear subs on citizens of poor hapless nations. I wonder how they fit those things on a F-16? Got to go I'm late for my KKK meeting....



Where's your KKK meeting this time? Is it in Iraq, Afghan or Pakistan's Swat valley and borders. Last time you guys held secret meetings in Vietnam-Laos-Cambodia where your CIA and army beheaded thousands of innocent humans. Perhaps a meeting in My Lai or some other 'savages' village???


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## SinoIndusFriendship

aimarhenry said:


> come on,guys.Pakistan is close enough to New Delhi,it's the best answer......
> india's long-range missile still can't reach to any other P5 except china,that's why they desperately need the nuclear submarine



That's why I said it is NOT China that is concerned, nor is it really any other Asian or Arab nation since these already fall in India's Agni II/III range ---> it is Europe and ANZUS that is concerned with a rising Asian military might. Richard Nixon exposed the cabal's intention when he said that India's population needed to be reduced (i.e. genocide).

Look here, we Asians have lived together peacefully for thousands and thousands of years. Through all that millennia we have come to understand our neighbors down to the people-to-people level. In fact I welcome a stronger Asian trust and power. 

- If Japan is strong I am proud because "one of us" is strong!

- If Korea is at the forefront of R&D I am proud because they are "one of us"!

- If India becomes a military & economic might I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!

- If Pakistan develops strong relations with Arab and Muslim world I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!

- If ASEAN surpasses EU I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!

etc...


The people on this forum for most part are NOT stupid. Let's not try to deceive intelligent people here. In the past it was "okay" to publicly and openly be a racist, hang 'them n1ggers', rape them 'g00ks', get me a 'ch1nkie or c00lie' -- but nowadays it is PC -- there's retaliation for PUBLIC display of racism.

What resulted is not the elimination of racism, rather the deceptive move underground. We non-whites want to raise ourselves to a level of dignity. We do so NOT by pulling others down, rather lifting ourselves up with our own efforts and sweat. Like the Indian author of best-selling book said, "It's not so much America is declining rather that the rest of the world is rising up!"

It should be obvious by all the 'covert' and lame 'human-rights' excuses (by the way those who use it against us 'savages' are the MAJOR violator of human rights around the globe) actions take to "KEEP US DOWN". We are not stupid, we know hypocrites - and we despise them. 

That is why I welcome India's advancement - I only hope GOI realizes a strong Asia-Arab-African-American union is best for the world peace.

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## maverick2009

Lets be brutally Honest Sinoindus. 

The last thing Pakistanis can stomach is a India with a Huge GDP and Nuke subs and aircraft carriers on its door step. 

Its really odd because the WEST are happy about a rising india. But no so Much their Neighbour Pakistan.


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## Myth_buster_1

maverick2009 said:


> Lets be brutally Honest Sinoindus.
> 
> The last thing Pakistanis can stomach is a India with a Huge GDP and Nuke subs and aircraft carriers on its door step.
> 
> Its really odd because the WEST are happy about a rising india. But no so Much their Neighbour Pakistan.



your English is soooo extremely poor and bad and yet you live in UK...


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## SQ8

We care less about the economy,more about the conventional imbalance.
Which is why I fail to understand why dont we simply adopt a thorough first strike policy. Simple.. Let the Indians know that if they so much as step on 10m of our territory without our permission we launch everything we have at them. Pakistan is lost in the retaliation for sure, what could be so bad? The Taliban get taken out in the process, and most of the majority population can feel elated it achieved martydom or similar levels of nirvana.. but I doubt India would be any better off with all its major cities, ports, airbases and the like uninhabitable. And that way the sub continent would be a very peaceful neighborhood for the next 10000 years.


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## A1Kaid

Here are some possible answers...This is a sensitive topic therefore I must limit myself here.


1) Invite the Chinese Navy to the Indian ocean (on Pakistan's side) and west of Indian mainland. 

2) Build a nuclear submarine with friendly nations such as Turkey and China.

3) Set up a buffer zone that is Nuclear Sub is not allowed within x amount of miles of the Pakistani coastline and or assets.

4) Better get ready to build nuclear bunkers (for population) in Karachi and other cities.



I have said this before I will say it again, the War was declared a long time ago...


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## A1Kaid

santro said:


> We care less about the economy,more about the conventional imbalance.
> Which is why I fail to understand why dont we simply adopt a thorough first strike policy. Simple.. Let the Indians know that if they so much as step on 10m of our territory without our permission we launch everything we have at them. Pakistan is lost in the retaliation for sure, what could be so bad? The Taliban get taken out in the process, and most of the majority population can feel elated it achieved martydom or similar levels of nirvana.. but I doubt India would be any better off with all its major cities, ports, airbases and the like uninhabitable. And that way the sub continent would be a very peaceful neighborhood for the next 10000 years.




Oh Young man,


In the elite offices of the Pakistani military, at the helm of military command knowledge and wisdom will prevail.


Let the enemy defeat himself, use the least energy to generate the maximum attack.

To say the least...


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## sabir

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> That's why I said it is NOT China that is concerned, nor is it really any other Asian or Arab nation since these already fall in India's Agni II/III range ---> it is Europe and ANZUS that is concerned with a rising Asian military might. Richard Nixon exposed the cabal's intention when he said that India's population needed to be reduced (i.e. genocide).
> 
> Look here, we Asians have lived together peacefully for thousands and thousands of years. Through all that millennia we have come to understand our neighbors down to the people-to-people level. In fact I welcome a stronger Asian trust and power.
> 
> - If Japan is strong I am proud because "one of us" is strong!
> 
> - If Korea is at the forefront of R&D I am proud because they are "one of us"!
> 
> - If India becomes a military & economic might I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!
> 
> - If Pakistan develops strong relations with Arab and Muslim world I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!
> 
> - If ASEAN surpasses EU I am proud b/c they are "one of us"!
> 
> etc...
> 
> 
> The people on this forum for most part are NOT stupid. Let's not try to deceive intelligent people here. In the past it was "okay" to publicly and openly be a racist, hang 'them n1ggers', rape them 'g00ks', get me a 'ch1nkie or c00lie' -- but nowadays it is PC -- there's retaliation for PUBLIC display of racism.
> 
> What resulted is not the elimination of racism, rather the deceptive move underground. We non-whites want to raise ourselves to a level of dignity. We do so NOT by pulling others down, rather lifting ourselves up with our own efforts and sweat. Like the Indian author of best-selling book said, "It's not so much America is declining rather that the rest of the world is rising up!"
> 
> It should be obvious by all the 'covert' and lame 'human-rights' excuses (by the way those who use it against us 'savages' are the MAJOR violator of human rights around the globe) actions take to "KEEP US DOWN". We are not stupid, we know hypocrites - and we despise them.
> 
> That is why I welcome India's advancement - I only hope GOI realizes a strong Asia-Arab-African-American union is best for the world peace.


hey ! I dont remember whether i have criticised you in some other thread or not....but here...you are bang on target. Yes, we will prosper together.
(india+china+pakistan+bangladesh) zindabaad. Japan. korea etc do not need our wishes...they are already much ahead.


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## maverick2009

Santro. 

Your military policy/ideology is already wat the Pakistanis have adapted. 

In other words. 

We can,t match your Ships, Planes, $$$ budgets. BUT if you cross our threshold we will nuke you FIRST. 

ie Pakistan has clearly said they are happy to use nukes FIRST. The reason being they acknwledge in a conventional war they will start to lose territory sooner or later due to india,s greater resources. 

IN CONTRAST INDIA has a clear NO FIRST USE POLICY./ 

For the reason they do not expect to be in a situation with regards to Pakistan where India may lose a Conventional war. They perceive the resource gap is to big for this to occur.


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## Khajur

*&#8220;A technology demonstrator&#8221; *


T.S. Subramanian 

CHENNAI: Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar said on Sunday that the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), by building the miniaturised reactor that propelled the country&#8217;s nuclear-powered submarine, had demonstrated &#8220;that we have our indigenous Pressurised Water Reactor (PWR) technology.&#8221; He called the launching of INS Arihant &#8220;an important milestone&#8221; in the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) programme. &#8220;This PWR technology is very complex. We have been able to compact this reactor and pack it in the cramped space&#8221; of the hull of the submarine, Dr. Kakodkar told The Hindu from Visakhapatnam where the submarine was launched. 

The shore-based PWR has been working at Kalpakkam, 60 km from Chennai, for the past three years, he said.

*India has been a world leader in building Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWRs) that use natural uranium as fuel, and heavy water as moderator and coolant. But this is the first time that India has built a PWR that used enriched uranium as fuel, and light water as both coolant and moderator.*

Dr. Kakodkar said the BARC mastering the PWR technology was significant now, because the Light Water Reactors that India would be importing (from Russia, France, and the U.S.) were PWRs that used enriched uranium as fuel, and light water as both coolant and moderator.

*To a question, the AEC Chairman said, &#8220;Yes, we miniaturised the reactor [on our own]. The basic complexity is that you have to make it into a compact power system to fit into a submarine.&#8221; *


Srikumar Banerjee, BARC Director, also stressed that &#8220;*the event marks the beginning of PWR technology in India.&#8221; *The BARC made many design features to make this reactor compact. &#8220;There are novelties not only in the reactor&#8217;s design but in its manufacturing,&#8221; he said. For instance, the steam generator which drove the turbine to generate electricity, was compacted in a novel manner. The heart of the reactor is the steam generator.

Dr. Banerjee said: &#8220;A boat of this type is a major technology in itself. Its steam generator is yet another technology. The whole platform is a very complex combination of various technologies. That is why we are happy it has reached fruition.

&#8220;We have so far developed reactors built on the shore [on firm ground]. But a submarine is a moving platform. It is rolling and pitching, and undergoes other kinds of motion. Against these, we have designed and developed this compact reactor. This is a major achievement.&#8221;

*Asked whether the Russians helped the BARC in miniaturising the reactor, Dr. Banerjee said, &#8220;No, no. They were consultants&#8230;Consultancy was done for the whole submarine, not for the power part alone.&#8221;*


He denied that there was an inordinate delay in the programme. The ATV was conceptualised only in 1984. &#8220;This is a completely new technology. It takes time to develop.&#8221; 

&#8220;Great event for nation&#8221; 


A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said: &#8220;Launching the Arihant is a great event for the nation because we are in the select club of countries having a nuclear-powered submarine.&#8221; 

Only Russia, France, the U.S., the U.K., and China have nuclear-powered submarines. 

The Hindu : National : &#8220;A technology demonstrator&#8221;


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## pmukherjee

maverick2009 said:


> Lets be brutally Honest Sinoindus.
> 
> The last thing Pakistanis can stomach is a India with a Huge GDP and Nuke subs and aircraft carriers on its door step.
> 
> Its really odd because the WEST are happy about a rising india. But no so Much their Neighbour Pakistan.



Maverick
Hi, you are right. Pakistan needs to revisit its ambitions vis-a-vis its capabilities and national desirabilities. Pakistan is already a nuke weapon state and it assumes, perhaps rightly so, that being a nuke weapon state makes it immune to foreign invasions. Why then should it try to match India? A SSBN is designed to give a nation the capability of second strike. India's No first Use policy mandates the availability of a second strike capability. We had no option but to go for it. Pakistan has no such obligation therefore this logic does not apply to it. I will not presume to advise the Pakistanis on what they should do. But it is pointless going into another arms race with India. Even an imbecile can see that Arihant is not Pakistan specific. What I can say with certainity however, is that Indians on this thread who are boasting and threatening Pakistan with the Arihant may be forgiven as immature.


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## haawk

santro said:


> We care less about the economy,more about the conventional imbalance.
> Which is why I fail to understand why dont we simply adopt a thorough first strike policy. Simple.. Let the Indians know that if they so much as step on 10m of our territory without our permission we launch everything we have at them. Pakistan is lost in the retaliation for sure, what could be so bad? The Taliban get taken out in the process, and most of the majority population can feel elated it achieved martydom or similar levels of nirvana.. but I doubt India would be any better off with all its major cities, ports, airbases and the like uninhabitable. And that way the sub continent would be a very peaceful neighborhood for the next 10000 years.






1)pakistan already has a first strike policy
2) if you are willing to let your entire country perish
----->a)what are you fighiting for?
b)what do you acheive by killing so many lives that you 
can boast off?
c)with everyone dead (including you ). who will be there 
to feel proud for your stupidity?
3) india will not completely destroyed .......yes it will be terribly hit but it will continue to exhist......some people will be left behind to get the country back together( it may take xxx yrs but someone is there to get back.....)
4) with pakistan totally gone ..... we can occupy it completely(just a sugession)if this happen there is no sense in your stupid act of destroying both the countries .....atleast india gets more land (useless but yes we get land) pakistan gets what?

considering the above stuff i trust you will not make a fool of yourself again(by posting crap like the one you have just posted)!!!!!


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## Super Falcon

i think pakistan does not require nuke sub we need 12 submarine very new and one thing more if we get nuke submarine it will give our nuke missiles more options to hit india from all the corners and dont forgot that nuke sub of india is onlt threat to pak indian aircraft group is also a threat to us because it has delhi class destroyer, kilo sub and frigates it will be hard to gettting near to it in war and if their aircraft be intact in war PN will have more headache we need more subs to get in near to it and few destroyers to keep indian ships minds on them so our subs can destroy indian aircraft carrier if our navy does it IN backbone will be crushed and morale if we get their aircraft carrier and few subs it will hurt india both ecnomyically and millitrically


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## Super Falcon

indian aircraft carrier is a backbone of indian sae fleet destroy it u will get half of IN lie its head on u

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## Machoman

> India, Punjab.
> 
> why do care about my ancestors?
> 
> now don't say, just for info!



Exactly just for info!


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## MastanKhan

Screaming Skull said:


> I have a very simple exercise for those who think that a conventional diesel electric sub can take out the Indian SSBN. Here it goes-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> That was a very simplistic statement---sub warfare is not handled like you stated---nuclear or diesel---the machine that runs the quitest wins---whomsoever has better equipment and ever vigilant electronic operators and crew--will take the first and second shot.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> Hi,
> 
> That was a very simplistic statement---sub warfare is not handled like you stated---nuclear or diesel---the machine that runs the quitest wins---whomsoever has better equipment and ever vigilant electronic operators and crew--will take the first and second shot



the strategic platforms cannot be and should not be compared at all.........sometimes making noise.....also help......the enemy know....that something big is nearby....so it's just like a shark......not many people are attacked by it.....but when u know that is part of ocean contains A BIG WHITE SHARK...people FEAR...it is just to create FEAR .......in the minds..........................after all the territorial water of any country is upto 12 Nauticle miles only....


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## Myth_buster_1

lol super falcon.. you made me laugh.. sorry bro...
but hey... nuclear sub does not mean its a NUKE tipped submarine... but actually the whole point is that its powered by nuclear plant.... and bro... even pakistani A-90B AIP is capable of carrying nuke weapons once our sub lauch cruise missile is ready..


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## Myth_buster_1

ok guys.. lets keep this thread only (PAK possible answer to indian nuclear sub)... i am kindly asking request from indians to avoid getting into of topic BS.. page 7 is the prime example..


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## paritosh

Growler said:


> your point is valid but to some extent..
> 
> Type-214 has all the nessesery sensors on board to make it comfortably snorkel on the surface.. the most important thing is to keep human fatigue in mind.. can they cope with 100 days of duration under water?? its like.. asking MKI pilots to conduct 72+ hours inflight missions without changing shifts... even if they do... their performance will be very very very bad compared to a pilot who just took off or is in 4-6 hours flight..



what sensors are you talking about mate?
snorkeling is different...to charge the batteries the sub has to resurface...and it is vulnerable then...AIP(air-independent prop.) does help in reducing the freqs of surfacing but only to a certain extent...the sub is slow when it is closer to the surface..it's Sonar signature is enhanced because of the formation of unwanted convergence zones...near it.
as far as the human fatigue factor is concerned...people work in shifts...and when you sign up for the armed forces...you have to bear everything.


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## paritosh

A1Kaid said:


> Here are some possible answers...This is a sensitive topic therefore I must limit myself here.
> 
> 
> 1) Invite the Chinese Navy to the Indian ocean (on Pakistan's side) and west of Indian mainland.
> 
> 2) Build a nuclear submarine with friendly nations such as Turkey and China.
> 
> 3) Set up a buffer zone that is Nuclear Sub is not allowed within x amount of miles of the Pakistani coastline and or assets.
> 
> 4) Better get ready to build nuclear bunkers (for population) in Karachi and other cities.
> 
> 
> 
> I have said this before I will say it again, the War was declared a long time ago...



why not strive for peace?cheaper option...but some egos might get bruised on both sides.


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## Screaming Skull

> Hi,
> 
> That was a very simplistic statement



That was in response to the several other simplistic statements made before my post and wasn&#8217;t meant for a learned member such as you.



> ---sub warfare is not handled like you stated---nuclear or diesel---the machine that runs the quitest wins---whomsoever has better equipment and ever vigilant electronic operators and crew--will take the first and second shot.



Those in my humble opinion are blanket statements that do not address the main topic at hand. What use are better electronics, stealth and vigilant operators if you can never get in range to destroy your adversary? That is what I wanted to convey from my rather simplistic statements. 

A nuclear powered SSBN has literally unlimited endurance, in the sense that it can remain submerged for several months without surfacing even once. Let us assume that the Indian SSBN, INS Arihant has an endurance of 100 days (very conservative estimate). It will carry nuclear tipped ballistic missiles of over 3000km range initially (maybe by 2011-2012). Reports also suggest that the submerged speed is close to 40 knots. In my analysis I will assume it to be 25 knots (1knot=1.85km/hr). Now, with the data at hand we can calculate the total distance the sub can cover in 100 days (to and fro from base). It works out to be 25*1.85*24*100=111000km, i.e. 111000/2=55500km is the maximum distance it can go from base!

So, that suggests, that if it carries a BM of 3000km range, then it can be at least 3000km (min aerial distance) away from its target (let s say a Pak city) effortlessly! So, a Pak conventional submarine will have to cover god knows how many times that distance (since 3000km is the min aerial distance), circumventing other nations&#8217; coasts, islands, archipelagos etc. just to get in range to fire a torpedo at the SSBN. Now, you tell me is that possible with a conventional diesel electric power plant which can offer a range of a few weeks at max? If you are talking about covering such distances with your PAF jets and anti-sub helis, then again they will have to cross so much distance over god knows how many countries&#8217; airspaces, maybe including India. Hence, that option too is ruled. The situation worsens further if India develops missiles of greater ranges (Here the missile range is a limiting factor for the distance that can be potentially covered by the SSBN). 

Hence, I will again make the point that I made before, that a nuclear powered SSBN can only be taken out by a nuclear powered attack submarine simply because a conventional sub can never match a nuke sub for its endurance, no matter how advanced its electronics, stealth features or operators are!


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## Myth_buster_1

paritosh said:


> as far as the human fatigue factor is concerned...people work in shifts...and when you sign up for the armed forces...you have to bear everything.



seriously.. god may help you indians....

 shifts?? yep... in middle of war zone when this nuclear sub has to keep its location classified will surface and change shifts... if not since super human indians have signed up for their armed force they have to BEAR 100 days of submerged torturing..... 
indian stupidity have no bounds..


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## Screaming Skull

Growler said:


> seriously.. god may help you indians....
> 
> shifts?? yep... in middle of war zone when this nuclear sub has to keep its location classified will surface and change shifts... if not since super human indians have signed up for their armed force they have to BEAR 100 days of submerged torturing.....
> indian stupidity have no bounds..



Try to understand what he is saying if your intention is to participate in a healthy debate without degrading other members point of view.

The Indian SSBN can carry a crew of 100 men who all work in shifts. There is no need for 100 men to work together at any point of time. I dont know if you have been inside a sub, but I have. Let me assure you that the facilities inside the subs are far better than what you will see in many middle class Indian and Pakistani homes. They have quality chefs who will cook delicious and healthy food, day in and day out, depending on the size of the subs they have spacious bunkers to sleep, gyms to work out and stay fit, TV rooms and several other amenities to keep the crew entertained. So, where is the fatigue factor? And here we arent talking about ordinary men, they will be the best and the fittest men of the Indian Navy hand picked to man what might be the countrys biggest strategic asset.

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## Myth_buster_1

Screaming Skull said:


> A nuclear powered SSBN has literally unlimited endurance, in the sense that it can remain submerged for several months without surfacing even once. Let us assume that the Indian SSBN, INS Arihant has an endurance of 100 days (very conservative estimate).



first of all.. to a normal human beings the first question will arise... do humans have unlimited about of endurance let alone in a conjuncted sub? 



> It will carry nuclear tipped ballistic missiles of over 3000km range initially (maybe by 2011-2012).
> Reports also suggest that the submerged speed is close to 40 knots. In my analysis I will assume it to be 25 knots (1knot=1.85km/hr). Now, with the data at hand we can calculate the total distance the sub can cover in 100 days (to and fro from base). It works out to be 25*1.85*24*100=111000km, i.e. 111000/2=55500km is the maximum distance it can go from base!
> So, that suggests, that if it carries a BM of 3000km range, then it can be at least 3000km (min aerial distance) away from its target (let s say a Pak city) effortlessly!



what a senseless to say... look... in pak indo context.. such enormous long distance does not matter... in event of war.. PN will try to gain a strategic point by sending few subs armed with cruise missiles on the other side of india (extreme east).. while india will try to blockade PAK in Arabian see which is not that huge of a distance.. 
in order for this nuclear sub to take full potential out of its 3000km range SLBM they have to get 1500 or so km close to pak coastal area.. 
and again.... you are diverting the main subject of this Type-214 being the nuclear sub hunter... with your own ego satisfying posts.. 



> So, a Pak conventional submarine will have to cover god knows how many times that distance (since 3000km is the min aerial distance), circumventing other nations coasts, islands, archipelagos etc. just to get in range to fire a torpedo at the SSBN. Now, you tell me is that possible with a conventional diesel electric power plant which can offer a range of a few weeks at max? If you are talking about covering such distances with your PAF jets and anti-sub helis, then again they will have to cross so much distance over god knows how many countries airspaces, maybe including India. Hence, that option too is ruled. The situation worsens further if India develops missiles of greater ranges (Here the missile range is a limiting factor for the distance that can be potentially covered by the SSBN).


 
now those who think indians are very intelligent and educated should commit suicide after reading this comic story.. 

you think NAVAL WARFARE COLLAGE is made for just pass time?? and in event of war... they will say... naaaaaaa. IN nuclear sub is 3,000km away from us... it will be waist of time to catch them so lets just take a nap... 
and btw... this is Type-214 we are talking about... its unique fuel cells AIP system can make way pass your estimated guess of just few weeks lol.. in fact it can travel about *90 days.*. 



> Hence, I will again make the point that I made before, that a nuclear powered SSBN can only be taken out by a nuclear powered attack submarine simply because a conventional sub can never match a nuke sub for its endurance, no matter how advanced its electronics, stealth features or operators are!



oh please tell those dumb Germans who are so deluded that they can take on russian nuclear subs with their type-212.. 
i must knock their doors with your very wonderful piece of enlightening post.. please can i plagiarize your work and maybe those germans will be so impressed and offer me a job in their Naval war collage..


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## zombie

Question to someone knowleadgeable about submarines - Why dont usually countries keep nuclear tipped missiles(either cruise or ballistic) in a conventional submarine..or do they?


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## Beskar

Screaming Skull said:


> So, that suggests, that if it carries a BM of 3000km range, then it can be at least 3000km (min aerial distance) away from its target (let s say a Pak city) effortlessly!



First get a Ballistic Missile with a range of 3000 KM installed in the Arihant and THEN we'll talk about how far we'd have to go to sink your boat. 

Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away.

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## Screaming Skull

> first of all.. to a normal human beings the first question will arise... do humans have unlimited about of endurance let alone in a conjuncted sub?



100 days for 100 men in shifts? Dont compare your endurance with that of trained military personnel. Read my previous post!



> what a senseless to say... look... in pak indo context.. such enormous long distance does not matter... in event of war.. PN will try to gain a strategic point by sending few subs armed with cruise missiles on the other side of india (extreme east)..



So, you plan to take out a sub with a cruise missile? Very intelligent indeed! 



> while india will try to blockade PAK in Arabian see which is not that huge of a distance..



India will try to do this, Pak will try to do that! Of course you are the genius here with the crystal orb!



> in order for this nuclear sub to take full potential out of its 3000km range SLBM they have to get 1500 or so km close to pak coastal area..



What nonsense is this? No word of the above sentence makes any sense. Why would it have to get 1500 km close to ur coast when it has a range of 3000km.



> and again.... you are diverting the main subject of this Type-214 being the nuclear sub hunter... with your own ego satisfying posts..



Ooooh m so scared! U-214 s nuke sub hunter! But you still cant explain how it will get close to the Arihant (Destroyer of enemies by the way!) to hunt it!



> now those who think indians are very intelligent and educated should commit suicide after reading this comic story..



Naaaah, intelligent and educated Indians only laugh to a comic story unlike some unintelligent and uneducated trolls! 



> you think NAVAL WARFARE COLLAGE is made for just pass time?? and in event of war... they will say... naaaaaaa. IN nuclear sub is 3,000km away from us... it will be waist of time to catch them so lets just take a nap...
> I dont know for what the Naval warfare college is made for
> and btw... this is Type-214 we are talking about... its unique fuel cells AIP system can make way pass your estimated guess of just few weeks lol.. in fact it can travel about 90 days..



Genius! Let s see what an educated and intelligent Pakistani does after reading this part! 90 days without snorkeling!!!!!! Of course! I forgot, it s PN we are talking bout. They make super duper things happen. Go get your facts right kiddo!



> oh please tell those dumb Germans who are so deluded that they can take on russian nuclear subs with their type-212..



No maybe I should just tell those dumb Yankees and the brits instead who dont operate a single conventional sub! 



> i must knock their doors with your very wonderful piece of enlightening post.. please can i plagiarize your work and maybe those germans will be so impressed and offer me a job in their Naval war collage..



Oh please do if you are so jobless! May your dreams of getting into their Naval war college come true!


----------



## Screaming Skull

Bezerk said:


> First get a Ballistic Missile with a range of 3000 KM installed in the Arihant and THEN we'll talk about how far we'd have to go to sink your boat.
> 
> Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away.



And you get the mighty 'Nuke Sub Hunter-U214' first and then device ways of taking out Arihant!

*"Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away."*

On a more serious note, don't quote me out of context. Read my post again, I have mentioned the expected time line ie 2011-2012. And what makes you think that it won't be installed by the time the Arihant is inducted into IN? I can show you reports where they say that the sub launched version of Agni-3 (3.5k km range) has been tested already.


----------



## Beskar

Screaming Skull said:


> And you get the mighty 'Nuke Sub Hunter-U214' first and then device ways of taking out Arihant!
> 
> *"Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away."*
> 
> On a more serious note, don't quote me out of context. Read my post again, I have mentioned the expected time line ie 2011-2012. And what makes you think that it won't be installed by the time the Arihant is inducted into IN? I can show you reports where they say that the sub launched version of Agni-3 (3.5k km range) has been tested already.



I didn't said anything about the U-214. Arihant can be easily hunted even today with conventional means if found taking its chances anywhere near our waters. But that's not the point.

There's no doubt that Agni-3 might have a range of 3.5k KM. The point was that fitting a ballistic missile (with a 3500+ range) which almost qualifies as an ICBM, is not an easy job. Definitely not going to happen by 2012.


----------



## Screaming Skull

> I didn't said anything about the U-214.



You didnt say that. But the guys for whom my post was meant said that and that is why I said dont quote me out of context!



> Arihant can be easily hunted even today with conventional means if found taking its chances in our waters.



My only argument through out this thread has been that the range and endurance of Arihant is far greater than any conventional sub PN has or intends to buy. I even went as far as to say that it can be 3000km away from Pak coast and still be mighty effective. Even the base where it is stationed right now is just about 2000-2500 km away from Karachi. So, with a 3000 km SLBM it wont even have to leave its base to do the job. When that is the case, why would it get into your territorial waters? 



> There's no doubt that Agni-3 might have a range of 3.5 KM. The point was that fitting a ballistic missile (with a 3500+ range) which almost qualifies as an ICBM, is not an easy job. Definitely not going to happen by 2012.



Read this-



> A miniaturised submarine-launched version of the Agni-III called Agni-III SL is also being developed and could be test-fired shortly.
> 
> The Hindu News Update Service



That news appeared about a year back. And there are roomers that it has already been tested and the test was hushed up due to obvious reasons. Any way, if it was planned to be tested in 2008, 2011-2012 is a good time gap I have given for complete development.


----------



## waz

Both screaming skull and Bezerk have points. In plain and simple terms the 214 does not have the endurance of the Indian submarine, so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible. However, yes it is true that the 214 and most of the other diesel electric submarines have a significant edge, over their nuclear counterparts in a confrontation. This was clearly seen to devastating effect in the joint US/Australian war games, and earlier the Swedish US Naval exercises. The Sheehanand Waller both sank US nuclear class submarines, repeatedly during engagements. The Gotland class also achieved a similar feat, before it was leased out as part of the US Navys groundbreaking research into countering such submarines.


----------



## MastanKhan

Screaming Skull said:


> That was in response to the several other simplistic statements made before my post and wasnt meant for a learned member such as you.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.
> 
> At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.
> 
> Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.
> 
> The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.
> 
> Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SinoIndusFriendship

MastanKhan said:


> Screaming Skull said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was in response to the several other simplistic statements made before my post and wasnt meant for a learned member such as you.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.
> 
> At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.
> 
> Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.
> 
> The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.
> 
> Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing this informative info.
Click to expand...


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## Screaming Skull

> Hi,
> 
> My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.
> 
> At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.
> 
> Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.



Dear Sir, is that all you found of interest in my post? I think you misinterpreted what I wanted to say! Though I completely endorse your views on efficacy of a sub at low speeds, my primary argument was never about speed, it was about *'range and endurance'*! You can scale down the speed in my analysis from 25kts to 5kts if you like. But that still gives the sub a range of 55500/5=11100km from base!



> The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.



It is a recipe for a winner only if both decide to tango with each other! Why dont you understand that a nuke powered *SSBN* is never meant to fight with the enemy vessels? It is merely a launch platform for ballistic missiles and will be thousands of miles away from the theater of conflict, where no enemy vessel can reach it! The responsibility of fighting the enemy vessels lies with *attack subs* (conventional or nuke powered) and there your argument is absolutely valid!



> Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.



I think you answered the question yourself! The Pakistani diesel could lock on to the US carrier because it was in the Arabian Sea. That s exactly what I am trying to highlight here, the Indian SSBN will never be in the Arabian Sea or anywhere close to your vessels or where they can potentially get!


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## Screaming Skull

> Both screaming skull and Bezerk have points. In plain and simple terms the 214 does not have the endurance of the Indian submarine, so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible.



You have summed up the essence of my posts very nicely! 

*so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible*

that is the bottomline!



> However, yes it is true that the 214 and most of the other diesel electric submarines have a significant edge, over their nuclear counterparts in a confrontation. This was clearly seen to devastating effect in the joint US/Australian war games, and earlier the Swedish US Naval exercises. The Sheehanand Waller both sank US nuclear class submarines, repeatedly during engagements. The Gotland class also achieved a similar feat, before it was leased out as part of the US Navys groundbreaking research into countering such submarines.



The U214 is indeed very advanced and I never denied that. But, you have to understand that there is nothing like a Nuclear class sub as you mention in your post. They are nuclear powered and are of two types- the ballistic missile subs and the attack subs. The SSBNs like the Indian Arihant will never enter a potential conflict zone. In fact, it will be stationed as far away from the conflict zone as possible. However, the primary responsibility of a nuke attack sub is to find and hunt down enemy vessels just like any other conventional sub. In that conflict, what you have said may be true and the U214 may indeed have an edge over certain nuclear powered attack subs!


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## SBD-3

hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that


> Ballistic missile submarines differ in purpose from attack submarines and cruise missile submarines; while attack submarines specialise in combat with other naval vessels (including enemy submarines and merchant shipping), and cruise missile submarines are designed to attack large warships and tactical targets on land, the primary mission of the ballistic missile is nuclear deterrence.


considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility


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## SinoIndusFriendship

hasnain0099 said:


> hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that
> 
> considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
> Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility



Good point. It's called "Asymmetrical Warfare" (or Guerilla warfare). Highly effective - both cost and results.


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## amarnath

hasnain0099 said:


> hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that
> 
> considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
> Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility



Babur cruise missile as you state has a maximum operational range of 700kms. with a speed of MACH 0.8. By the time it reaches here, we can launch either shourya missile with a speed of more than MACH 4.Or Interceptor missile.Or sagarika from Arihant.


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## SBD-3

here is something interesting 
SSBN


> 14 nuclear-powered SSBNs (ballistic missile submarines), each armed with *24 Trident II SLBMs*; they are also known as "Trident" submarines, and provide the sea-based leg of the nuclear triad of the United States strategic nuclear weapons arsenal


SSGN


> 4 nuclear-powered SSGNs (cruise missile submarines),*each capable of carrying 154 Tomahawk cruise missileswith conventional warheads*


no wonder PN is looking towards SL version of Babur as since babur can be equipped with Nuke Warhead one can imagine the capacity


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## Mercenary

Pakistan needs to stop competing with India on every military purchase. 

India is a big country, with a bigger GDP, more foreign countries invest in India and thus India can afford to acquire big ticket items like Nuclear Submarines, Aircraft carriers, etc...

We need more defensive capability rather than offensive capability.

Our Missiles can do the offensive damage.

To counter the Indian Navy, we need to acquire some Naval Fighters such as F-18, Harriers, etc. Around 32 to 48 should be enough deployed in various naval bases. 

Then we need ships armed with latest anti-submarine torpedoes and coastal batteries to hammer any Indian Submarine that comes close to the Pakistani coast.

We should also try to get the Iranians to give us the Sunburn Missile and try to reverse engineer it. It is a deadly Anti-ship missile which even gives the Mighty US Navy pause.

Having an arsenal of 500 Sunburn Missiles can devastate the Indian Navy.

Offensive weapons are expensive and we don't need them. We need to guard Pakistan and thus we need defensive weaponry.


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## amarnath

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan needs to stop competing with India on every military purchase.
> 
> India is a big country, with a bigger GDP, more foreign countries invest in India and thus India can afford to acquire big ticket items like Nuclear Submarines, Aircraft carriers, etc...
> 
> We need more defensive capability rather than offensive capability.
> 
> Our Missiles can do the offensive damage.
> 
> To counter the Indian Navy, we need to acquire some Naval Fighters such as F-18, Harriers, etc. Around 32 to 48 should be enough deployed in various naval bases.
> 
> Then we need ships armed with latest anti-submarine torpedoes and coastal batteries to hammer any Indian Submarine that comes close to the Pakistani coast.
> 
> We should also try to get the Iranians to give us the Sunburn Missile and try to reverse engineer it. It is a deadly Anti-ship missile which even gives the Mighty US Navy pause.
> 
> Having an arsenal of 500 Sunburn Missiles can devastate the Indian Navy.
> 
> Offensive weapons are expensive and we don't need them. We need to guard Pakistan and thus we need defensive weaponry.




both our country started from scrap after the british rule, So it make effort to develop a country. So If you can get 500 sunburn, As u said, that How much can we counter? I Respect your attitude. Keep it up friend


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## Myth_buster_1

Screaming Skull said:


> 100 days for 100 men in shifts? Dont compare your endurance with that of trained military personnel. Read my previous post!


i stand corrected. 



> So, you plan to take out a sub with a cruise missile? Very intelligent indeed!


Hypocrisy at its best..you are such a nutcase.. when you are done with ejaculating paper specs maybe you will come back to your senses that i was merely discussing type-214 hunter capability until you came along and brought up this irrelevant contest... oh btw.. i never knew this nuclear sub can hunt down conventional subs with their 3000KM range SLBM..



> What nonsense is this? No word of the above sentence makes any sense. Why would it have to get 1500 km close to ur coast when it has a range of 3000km.


it doesnt take a genius to comprehend the fact that most of PAK major cities are located on north about 1200km or so... only if this sub plans to threaten Karachi with its nuclear tiped SLBM only can they utilize its full potential range of 3000km or so.. and even then it has to get 3000km in our coastal range. 



> Ooooh m so scared! U-214 s nuke sub hunter! But you still cant explain how it will get close to the Arihant (Destroyer of enemies by the way!) to hunt it!


kid you need to grow up... arihant has yet to deliver its performance... what if it also ends up like ARJUN MBT (the mythical crossbow hindu warrior)



> No maybe I should just tell those dumb Yankees and the brits instead who dont operate a single conventional sub!



thats because their naval doctrine is long range? thats why they perfer nuclear powered subs??? you never know which country across the globe they are going to attack? Germany have more of a self defense doctrine.... they want to utilize their shallow water costle and place silent stealthy U-boats? they are going to be their for some purpose?? perhaps hunt russian nuclear subs in case of an event??


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> i stand corrected.
> 
> 
> it doesnt take a genius to comprehend the fact that most of PAK major cities are located on north about 1200km or so... only if this sub plans to threaten Karachi with its nuclear tiped SLBM only can they utilize its full potential range of 3000km or so.. and even then it has to get 3000km in our coastal range.



Did you forget Operation Trident and Operation Python,1971 war? With the kind of navy we have, we can blockade your harbour very easily.




Growler said:


> kid you need to grow up... arihant has yet to deliver its performance... what if it also ends up like ARJUN MBT (the mythical crossbow hindu warrior)



Ignorance at its best,Arihant has already been tested in waters, However it has to go through 2year sea trials, like any other Submarines which goes before getting inducted. It will have to test its nuke warheads. Arihant is even now ready to operate. It will not take time for us to complete all the 4 other Submarines as we have an exp of building one. Those will be even better.


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> Babur cruise missile as you state has a maximum operational range of 700kms. with a speed of MACH 0.8. By the time it reaches here, we can launch either shourya missile with a speed of more than MACH 4.Or Interceptor missile.Or sagarika from Arihant.



or or or gomutra from arihant at mach 100?? 
are we done now with your stars wars?? first of all.. Babur CM is not going to be any loitering flying object in indian air space.. first go learn a thing or two about CM and then gobble about your star wars... their is a reasion behind this sub-sonic ground hugging CM which is adopted by almost every other CM nations..


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> or or or gomutra from arihant at mach 100??
> are we done now with your stars wars?? first of all.. Babur CM is not going to be any loitering flying object in indian air space.. first go learn a thing or two about CM and then gobble about your star wars... their is a reasion behind this sub-sonic ground hugging CM which is adopted by almost every other CM nations..



whos having a star wars here, and that too with baboon missiles? lol


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> whos having a star wars here, and that too with baboon missiles? lol



Indians...


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> Oh really, When was that? when we defeated you in all the wars? or was it in your sweet dreams?



their goes typical deluded wet dreaming bharatraksak fanboy... keep dreaming kid...


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> Cant digest the facts huh? lol... keep dreaming KID



should i really give you some hard facts that will chock you on the spot? or should i act like a grown up and not involve myself in this P1ssing contest which indians are very good at? 
how is your desscusion relivent to the subject? if you wish to discuss your mythical star wars then please do so in a different thread...


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> should i really give you some hard facts that will chock you on the spot? or should i act like a grown up and not involve myself in this P1ssing contest which indians are very good at?
> how is your desscusion relivent to the subject? if you wish to discuss your mythical star wars then please do so in a different thread...



Yes, Give me your hard facts....... Give it..... Lets see what the hard fact you have.......


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> Yes, Give me your hard facts....... Give it..... Lets see what the hard fact you have.......



this is not your usual p1ssing contest bharatraksak.... fallow the rules and show some civility at least here.. like i said before.. if you want to discuss pak-indo wars then you are most welcome to do so in your own new thread.. and for now stop flaming the thread.


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## waz

amarnath said:


> Oh really, When was that? when we defeated you in all the wars? or was it in your sweet dreams?



Stop putting up your bull here; it may look great on Indian websites but not here or any neutral forum. Stop lying to yourself. If you still insist, start putting up references to your supposed total wins in 48, Rann of Kutch, 65 and Kargil, there are plenty of threads around for that.

Moderators could you watch this guy, brining in off topic nonsense in a thread devoted to the topic of submarines.

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## waz

amarnath said:


> Come on, Go back to the threads And see who pulled me into this...



Originally Posted by Growler View Post
or or or gomutra from arihant at mach 100??
are we done now with your stars wars?? first of all.. Babur CM is not going to be any loitering flying object in indian air space.. first go learn a thing or two about CM and then gobble about your star wars... their is a reasion behind this sub-sonic ground hugging CM which is adopted by almost every other CM nations..


*whos having a star wars here, and that too with baboon missiles? lol*

I already did, hence my post above.


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## amarnath

waz said:


> Originally Posted by Growler View Post
> or or or gomutra from arihant at mach 100??
> are we done now with your stars wars?? first of all.. Babur CM is not going to be any loitering flying object in indian air space.. first go learn a thing or two about CM and then gobble about your star wars... their is a reasion behind this sub-sonic ground hugging CM which is adopted by almost every other CM nations..
> 
> 
> *whos having a star wars here, and that too with baboon missiles? lol*
> 
> I already did, hence my post above.



And still dont know who went off topic?


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## SBD-3

amarnath said:


> both our country started from scrap after the british rule, So it make effort to develop a country. So If you can get 500 sunburn, As u said, that How much can we counter? I Respect your attitude. Keep it up friend



hello! INDIA starting from scrap? go read some fact book brother


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## amarnath

hasnain0099 said:


> hello! INDIA starting from scrap? go read some fact book brother



Yeah, what did we have,which you dint? We had a good labour force.And moreover jinnah dint ask for anything more. Technically,Both India and Pakistan Started from scrap


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## Myth_buster_1

amarnath said:


> Yeah, what did we have,which you dint? We had a good labour force.And moreover jinnah dint ask for anything more. Technically,Both India and Pakistan Started from scrap



why are you acting like a stupid burden donkey on the middle of the road! what dont you understand! cut the chatter and fallow the simple rule! dont go off topic...


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> why are you acting like a stupid burden donkey on the middle of the road! what dont you understand! cut the chatter and fallow the simple rule! dont go off topic...



Oh comeon, Digest the fact..... Stik to the topic ...


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## Myth_buster_1

You are right.. i should disgust the fact that Type-214 is a arihant hunter...


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## amarnath

Growler said:


> You are right.. i should disgust the fact that Type-214 is a arihant hunter...



Provide me your source... lets see.


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## EjazR

IMHO, the Indian N-sub would be tactically useless against Pakistan.

The main benefit of a N-sub is that it can stay under water for long periods (years) and remain undetected while it conducts survelience or acts as a deterrent. It would most likely be directed against countries with large blue water navies like the Chinese an to protect Indian interests in the ASEAN region.

So Pakistan would'nt need to do anything to counter this. Just my 2 cents

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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Khajur

Nuke sub will provide india its most *reliable second strike capability*for its unlimited indurance ...keeping in the fact that india has no first strike policy.

INS Arihant is SSBN unlike a nuclear attack sub whose *primary task *would be to remain undetected and lob nuclear war heads incase india is attacked with nuke missiles.

With its 3000k missiles its main targets ofcourse be *pakistan and china*.For more far off targets it'll need icbm.


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## EjazR

I think you are missing the point that N-sub does not mean nuclear missile capability only. India already has capability to launch nuclear missiles (balistic missiles specifically) from submarines such as the sagarika.

The N-sub means that this submarine runs on a nuclear reactor. So it doesn't need to refuel for long periods of time. So yes it can fire nuke missiles, but you don't need N-subs to do that. N-subs provide a wholly different capability.


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## Aamir Hussain

Guys the Nuke is an overkill for Pakistan -- in case of a Nuclear exchange it would not really matter if India has 2nd strike capability --Pakistan would have been finished as a place fit to live for human beings and so would be the case with India.

In case of conventional exchange the nuke can lob cruise missiles and remain undetected - but not for long if Pakistan goes for a strong Airborne ASW Platforms like the later versions of Orion or the new Posiedon.

My take on this!!!

BTW -- it will take years for the boat to be full on stream for operational use. We should build our long range air ASW element as a counter.


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## Super Falcon

but i still think N submarine is not a big threat yes it is a threat but the bigger threat is indian Aircraft carrier which is supposed to be ships likes of delhi class destroyer which can fire cruise missile which carry nukes i think pakistan and china incraese submarines china already have enough but pakistan should get more state of art subs like U 214 which is hard to detect and also can destroy air targets like anti sub helicopters and aircrafts with missiles from underwater


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## SBD-3

amarnath said:


> Yeah, what did we have,which you dint? We had a good labour force.And moreover jinnah dint ask for anything more. Technically,Both India and Pakistan Started from scrap


i think you are not a good history here is a small chunk of only idsutrial sector in Pakistan at independence 
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/596-2.pdf
compare it with India at that time 
furthermore here is an extract from an article about defence industry


> During the colonial rule, sixteen ordnance factories were established in the sub-continent. After the creation of Pakistan in 1947, all those sixteen factories fell to Indian share since none of them were located in Muslim majority areas forming Pakistan.1 The newly-created Pakistan emerged with a fragile state apparatus and rudimentary Armed Forces headed by three British Chiefs for its respective forces, and scarcely had any infrastructure or equipment and no ammunition manufacturing facility, to meet the security challenges confronting its sovereignty, national security and territorial integrity. By October 1947, just two and half months after its creation, in such dire conditions the fledgling state of Pakistan already faced its first major externally-launched security threat  namely the Indian aggression against and its occupation of two-thirds of the Jammu and Kashmir State.
> 
> After independence, India provided Pakistan with only 6,000 tons of munitions out of 1700,000 tons in its possession, when it was proportionately entitled to more. The subsequent war in Kashmir pushed Pakistans army into a state of actual imbalance.2 On the economic front, Pakistan faced the same situation. Of its total dues Pakistan received only 147 million pounds sterling, representing 17% of the total balance held by India.3 On an immediate basis, Pakistan had to use almost 70% of that amount in arms purchases to redress this imbalance.


PAKISTAN DEFENCE PRODUCTION: PROSPECTS FOR DEFENCE EXPORT
all other financial and administration issue aside 
looking for your response


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## SBD-3

amarnath said:


> Babur cruise missile as you state has a maximum operational range of 700kms. with a speed of MACH 0.8. By the time it reaches here, we can launch either shourya missile with a speed of more than MACH 4.Or Interceptor missile.Or sagarika from Arihant.


logically idiotic post!
first see the modus operandi of Babur Crusie Missile


> The Babur's guidance system uses a combination of inertial navigation systems, terrain contour matching (TERCOM) and satellite guidance. The satellite guidance is believed to be compatible with both the USA's Global Positioning System satellites and the Chinese COMPASS navigation satellite system. The guidance system reportedly gives the missile pinpoint accuracy.[1]
> 
> *The missile has a high degree of manoeuvrability, allowing it to "hug" the terrain. Terrain hugging ability helps the missile avoid enemy radar detection by utilising "terrain masking", giving Babur the capability to penetrate enemy air defence systems undetected and survive until reaching the target.*[1] The missile's design features can be compared with the American BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile.[4]
> 
> *More advanced versions of the Babur are under development. Later versions are planned to have a range of 1000 km [4][8] and be capable of being launched from submarines such as the Pakistan Navy's Agosta 90B class submarine and Type 214 submarine*


then see the nature of missiles that you have posted to be the likely interceptors


> The Shaurya missile (Sanskrit: Valour) is a canister launched *hypersonic surface-to-surface tactical missile* developed by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) for use by the Indian Armed Forces. It has a range of between 600-700 km and is capable of carrying a payload of one-tonne conventional or nuclear warhead.[3] It can hit targets deep inside Pakistan and China, both nations having unsettled disputes with India


and about sagrika 


> is a nuclear-capable *submarine-launched ballistic missile *with a range of 750 kilometres (466 mi).


Are you pitting an SSM and SLBMs rather than a SAM or SLAM to counter a trrain hugging Crusie missile?



> It happens only in India!


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## ARSENAL6

not neeeded !!!!!!!


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## mervyn797

hasnain0099 said:


> logically idiotic post!
> first see the modus operandi of Babur Crusie Missile
> 
> then see the nature of missiles that you have posted to be the likely interceptors
> 
> and about sagrika
> Are you pitting an SSM and SLBMs rather than a SAM or SLAM to counter a trrain hugging Crusie missile?



absolutely wrong, i consider. tell me what can the babur cruise missile do?


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## Super Falcon

this might be good answer to indian nuke submarine and aircraft battle group


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## Myth_buster_1

Super Falcon said:


> ohZWZGlfvF8[/media] - Eurocopter Tiger in action.
> 
> 
> this might be good answer to indian nuke submarine and aircraft battle group



come on yaar.. what are you thinking!! dont randomly post something..
ok tell me how is Tiger going to hunt a freaking submarine?


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## Super Falcon

i posted wrong video


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## Skywalker

Guys stop dreaming about U 214 deal...this deal is off, Daily Jang just reported that. Infact Naval cheif (The tout of Dog zardari) has been summoned by NA as the oppostion lodged a protest that why French subs prefered over U 2124.

This swine Zardari is in full throtle for kickbacks.


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Myth_buster_1

okay this is what pakistan navy should do....
since IN is gearing up to be one mammoth navy PN has to come up with their own countering tactic.. 
PN cant match every indian acquisition with similar capability so what they should do is transform the navy into more of a submarine and aviation force...


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## Khajur

EjazR said:


> I think you are missing the point that N-sub does not mean nuclear missile capability only. India already has capability to launch nuclear missiles (balistic missiles specifically) from submarines such as the sagarika.
> 
> The N-sub means that this submarine runs on a nuclear reactor. So it doesn't need to refuel for long periods of time. So yes it can fire nuke missiles, but you don't need N-subs to do that. N-subs provide a wholly different capability.



*No where i mentioned conventional sub cant deliver nuke missiles.*.Obviously u didnt get my point.

But as i said in my last post, a SSBN Nuke sub gives the most reliable second strike capability as* its unlimited endurance means it can lurk undetected for long period of time far away from the danger zone*.
Its also for this sole reason why worldclass Navies of nuclear power nations choose SSBNs as primary platform for carry guided nuke missiles.


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## SQ8

maverick2009 said:


> Santro.
> 
> Your military policy/ideology is already wat the Pakistanis have adapted.
> 
> In other words.
> 
> We can,t match your Ships, Planes, $$$ budgets. BUT if you cross our threshold we will nuke you FIRST.
> 
> ie Pakistan has clearly said they are happy to use nukes FIRST. The reason being they acknwledge in a conventional war they will start to lose territory sooner or later due to india,s greater resources.
> 
> IN CONTRAST INDIA has a clear NO FIRST USE POLICY./
> 
> For the reason they do not expect to be in a situation with regards to Pakistan where India may lose a Conventional war. They perceive the resource gap is to big for this to occur.



Is that a bad thing???


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## Super Falcon

after watching the movie of u 214 i will want martial law should be inforced in pakistan to let armed forces want they get these politicians ruined aquisations


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## Myth_buster_1

Khajur said:


> *No where i mentioned conventional sub cant deliver nuke missiles.*.Obviously u didnt get my point.
> 
> But as i said in my last post, a SSBN Nuke sub gives the most reliable second strike capability as* its unlimited endurance means it can lurk undetected for long period of time far away from the danger zone*.
> Its also for this sole reason why worldclass Navies of nuclear power nations choose SSBNs as primary platform for carry guided nuke missiles.



very wrong.. nuclear powered subs generate alot of noise specially the russians and chinese once.... second.. just check out the specs.. its humongous! it will be picked by modern non nuclear subs like Type-214 and 212 if you are planning to lurk this SSBN in Arabian sea..


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## Super Falcon

r u sure U 214 is officialy caled off for PN please tell me reliable info


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## SBD-3

mervyn797 said:


> absolutely wrong, i consider. tell me what can the babur cruise missile do?



another such post!
if you can explain the process of taking down a missile with Surface to surface missile and sea to surface missile then i ll be really thankful why are you making me repeat the words


> It happens only in India


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## jalip

Super Falcon said:


> after watching the movie of u 214 i will want martial law should be inforced in pakistan to let armed forces want they get these politicians ruined aquisations



it was martial law in 71 i think? zardari have nothing to do with it and even he want he cant do any thing deals are done through ministry of defence and sectary of defence i think is a rtd general he can check it on the other hand it can be possible that some of our military establishment work with zardari then its different scenario .
the main reason i think is the german govt they will analyse the situation in pakistan after sep election in germany then they will finalized it just wait.
U boat is a world class submarine they cant give it to a unstable country( according to them ) 

i think french like ppp if some think fishy fishy happen some body will leak the information to the media and then opposition and media will handle it wait.
USA blocked our F 16 during Zia era so that was also in martial law
I never Understand why people with good military knowledge on this forum come up with these ideas.


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## graphican

Growler said:


> yepppp.. kaaaboooom.. the nuclear sub gone!!



Definitely, Even If I was the commander, that would have been an easy decision for me.. because in real Jihad, bodies aside, we offer our souls!


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> r u sure U 214 is officialy caled off for PN please tell me reliable info



it is not called off.I think the french are tricking this.They can do any thing for money.I think PN chief should have the capability to defend their decision
any ways here is the extract


----------



## glomex

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Why an arms race?

MONDAY night is sure to have caused anxiety and excitement among certain sections of those who received the news of Indias launch of its first indigenous nuclear submarine.

The Foreign Office denounced the development as something that could start a nuclear-arms race in the region, and Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar awoke from his slumber and lambasted the Indians.

The Pakistan Navys admirals spoke about the need to respond. The question is: will the launch really trigger a nuclear-arms race in the region and destabilise Pakistans security?

First, the term nuclear submarine does not mean a submarine loaded with nuclear weapons. In fact, it would be appropriate to say a nuclear-powered submarine that can stay submerged for a longer period of time. This capability alone makes a nuclear submarine an extremely lethal weapon because it could sneak beneath a countrys territorial waters and fire a conventional or nuclear warhead. Also, since they are longer, nuclear subs can carry larger torpedo tubes that are useful for firing nuclear warheads.

Indias launch shouldnt come as a surprise because New Delhi had been working on this project since the end of the 1980s when it had hired a Charlie-class Soviet nuclear-powered sub. This was basically to familiarise itself with the use of a nuclear sub. Even at that time, senior officers in Pakistan were upset and desirous of obtaining similar technology for Pakistan. Luckily, we did not embark upon an expensive project. Later, during the 1990s, the Indian Navy exercised with the Israeli Navy in the Indian Ocean practising on Israels Scorpene subs of French origin, learning how to fire nuclear warheads from conventional subs.

We dont need to copy the Indians because the Pakistan Navy already has the French Agosta 90B subs with an air-independent propulsion system that allows it to remain submerged for longer periods than the older subs. This means that if the navy could miniaturise nuclear warheads, it could sneak into Indian waters with the Agosta 90B at a time of extreme crisis and threaten the Indians. Technically speaking, the job is done. Now, we dont have to follow the Indians who probably wanted the new submarine for a feel-good effect and to join the league of the bigger boys including China, the US, Britain and France.

The real danger of the launch of a nuclear submarine by India is that it might force us to follow suit. If our admirals close their eyes they might just see their counterparts sticking out their tongues at them. This could prove to be a dangerous bait and bleed us financially. A nuclear submarine is an extremely expensive project. The Indians have managed to do it because they had more cash and a lot of Russian help. Pakistan, that had toyed with the idea of hiring nuclear submarines during the 1980s in response to Indias action and had failed to get one, might want to buy one from China. It does not seem likely that Beijing would give this technology to Pakistan at this stage.

An arms race is not the best formula for Pakistan. We will probably want to force ourselves to acquire this or that technology within a short span of time. There are two possible options. First, we could covertly

buy the technology from someone and end up with the kind of bargain we did with North Korea  this might give us a bloody nose. The second would be to start on an indigenous product.

Although we secretly claim to have the capability to adapt our Agosta 90Bs to carry nuclear warheads, the French designers deny that we have the capacity to alter the basic design of the torpedo tube. But this might just be the extent of our naval engineering work. Despite our claims to have made the Agosta 90B subs under a transfer-of-technology deal with the French, our agreement with Paris for the subs and the mine-hunters was so wishy-washy that we really cannot go beyond assembling these naval platforms or integrating the systems on these machines.

This is one of the basic steps in the development of indigenous production. We have never gone any further due to a lack of research and development, the absence of offset arrangements with original weapons manufacturers and a weak vendor industry. The defence industry, which is in the public sector, and its vendors, who are mostly private entrepreneurs, represent two diverse cultures. Mainly due to organisational-cultural problems there has never been a healthy interface to allow the public-private defence industry to carry out value-added work.

In comparative terms, the Pakistan Ordnance Factories and the Heavy Industries Taxila have taken bigger strides. But this is also because the technology is less complex than what the air force and navy require. The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex was catching up a few years ago when it had signed an offset agreement with Boeing. However, there are problems in its Karakoram-8 and JF-17 Thunder co-development, co-production contract that must be eradicated if the air force is to get maximum benefit. The navy lags behind.

Indeed, if any lesson is to be drawn from the Indian nuclear sub launch it is that Pakistan must revamp its entire defence production policy that rarely gets attention because those at the top are interested in buying weapons off-the-shelf. We have to develop our engineering and technology base, which in turn means greater education. And better education will mean setting our priorities straight. (One is reminded of a poster inscribed with the hope that a day would come when schools would have ample money and the air force would have to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber.)

In the meantime, lets leave the nuclear-powered sub competition to China. In any case, having acquired an indigenous nuclear-sub-building technology India has not really acted wisely, for this has been at the cost of millions of dispossessed and hungry. Why would we want to take that route?


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## xebex

glomex said:


> In the meantime, let&#8217;s leave the nuclear-powered sub competition to China. In any case, *having acquired an indigenous nuclear-sub-building technology India has not really acted wisely, for this has been at the cost of millions of dispossessed and hungry*. Why would we want to take that route?



I knew it!!!!, it will bounce back to the old phrase "starving poor Indian", we been hearing this for quiet a while, atleast we are not eating grass in the name of a nuke sub.lolz. Infact India is doing good day after day.....doing much better than when the nuke sub project started in the 80's.after all, more indigenous projects means more local jobs. Its as simple as that.


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## Super Falcon

more local jobs to naval personal not to a comman poor people


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## glomex

Super Falcon said:


> more local jobs to naval personal not to a comman poor people



Somebody needs to teach you some economics...

Let me help you:


Multiple Ingeniousness defense projects... means ......More localization...means more orders for local component manufacturers......this means need to invest more in Infrastructure and human resources.....which means more jobs for educated and talented professionals.......which means more consumption by these people.... which means...more business and economic activity down the line.....so the entire economy moves...along with the so called poor people......


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## Super Falcon

i agree with u but we are talking here for common poor people and these jobs given to them who are not too much poor it good to give jobs but where those who live below to common mans life standard what u do for them


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> i agree with u but we are talking here for common poor people and these jobs given to them who are not too much poor it good to give jobs but where those who live below to common mans life standard what u do for them


Its not the problem of India it is the bi product of capitalism we had a very good lecture on capitalism and luckily i made the report on that here is the extract 


> Market Economy and Its Limits:
> In the modern era virtually everywhere the market economy is playing the central role in economy. Though seemingly beneficial, in fact, this system has greatly damaged our society and we must find alternative means for this system. The systems whose foundations and framework were chalked out by Polanyi, still remains little understood in our lives though it occupies immense importance. Simply defining, in market economy the market is at the centre of all the functions and can only exist in Market Societies i.e. where markets determine the social structure.
> It is not true that economies cant run without markets, earlier all the economies used to operate on non-market basis. But with the passage of time the market economies took over from societies and replaced the core human principals, torment to the human values.
> This economic system that talks about Money, Land and Labor is prone to different disasters from time to time till it finally came to an end in WW2 according to Polanyi and resulted Keynesian theory for labor that was in fact a step to save this system for time being which lasted for 30 years almost but it again revitalized it self and led to current disaster. This system uses violence either natural or created and uses illusions to portray sufferings and disasters as development.
> Comparison of Market System from Social System:
> As Polanyi argued previously to our time, no society has ever existed that, even in principal, was not controlled by the market. But this argument is against the traditional wisdom of Adam Smiths barter, track and trade. A strong argument in this regard is that the activity in market economy can not be achieved by the commodity money that existed in the earlier times as market economy focuses on the growth i.e. inflation for its sustainability as against deflation threat and inflexible money supply offered by the commodity money standard. But market system was not able to rule out commodity money as it was the only alternative available for international trade as against fiat money. But within the economies it has achieved great success.
> Basis and development of market economy:
> The structure of market economy as pointed by Polanyi is dependent upon three factors.
> &#61558;	Money.
> &#61558;	Land.
> &#61558;	Labor.
> It is one of the characteristics of market economy that it hostilely takes over social economies that is the case proven in the course of history. What this new system did is that it hampered the Social system that had characteristics of low GNP but no concept of poverty as the distribution of wealth was fair and there was a strong social infrastructure to ensure the flow of resources from wealthy to poor.
> But for the market economy, it needed labor for running its factories and production and it was only possible when the people with low resources were deprived off and made desperate to sell themselves against wages. The process started in England with the concept of Pareto Optimality i.e. sacredness of private property and as rich people started occupying the land.
> 
> 
> As a result, a large number of people living on these lands were either displaced or lost their livelihood that they used to get by using those lands. As a result the concept of poverty evolved and to further promote this system it was given backing by ideology that for smooth functioning of markets excess labor is required and that can be achieved by depriving the poor from all resources.
> &#61558;	Ricardo said, If we help the poor, the society will be at loss
> &#61558;	Pittsburg said, If we showed pity towards the poor, system will not work
> &#61558;	Theory of markets suggest that any intervention i.e. subsidies will distort the market and benefits of free markets will be lost
> 
> History, aftermaths and working of market capitalism:
> Founded in England 50 years before the industrial revolution, when it achieved its objectives i.e. excess productivity via excess labor. It entered into the second phase i.e. to sell that produce. For this, it adopted the concept of free trade and England started to export its excess production to the Europe and US. Soon these countries realized that these countries were at loss because of the free trade that was destroying their own industries. So they developed protectionist policies to develop their own industrial base. As a result, England and other countries following the market structure started colonization in order to sell off their commodities that not only jeopardized the independence of colonized countries but also stopped industrial development in those countries. The economic power vested in the market economies helped them to exploit the others which ultimately led to WW2 in which Japan was forced to surrender on free trade!
> This kind of aftermath led to some adjustment meant to save the system from global unacceptability. JM Keynes introduced his labor theory where Govt was urged to intervene in the labor market to lower unemployment. This theory held up till stagflation of 1970s when it was assumed that the 1930 recession was not a result of the market system rather is was due to administrative lapses on the part of Govt. So the system was revitalized and creating a series of other crises it finally led to another global recession in 2008.
> The system recognizes Money is the ultimate objective of all human activates.
> This system measures human being on the bases of its earning stream generated through its life.
> Value of Human Being = Discounted cash flows generated
> This philosophy leads to a serious implication that people who do not posses the means to create money dont posses any value what so ever in the society or effectively dont deserve to be a part of society, a route cause that leads to all the social evils.
> Conclusion:
> After stating all the above facts. We come to a conclusion that the capitalism only promotes greed, hunger and disparity as development and progress and as Muslims we should do our best to promote welfare culture in our society for the improvement of above issues.


hope it ll be a help


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## Super Falcon

yes it helped for some extent thanx


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## Aamir Hussain

Dear Glomax Sahib:

Why does India need a Nuclear submarine??? Is it under threat from US, UK, Russia, China or the more lethal nations like Mauratius, Siri Lanka (now that they have taken care of the Tamils they can shift their sights on Indian Tamils) or is it truly Bangladesh which has its hands on the Indian Jagular????

Come on guys why this offensive arming ? This makes all the regional countries nervous and as a result the start arming! It is a zero sum game.

Do you all truly believe you have a real threat from anywhere -- is US going to land its troops and take over a a nation of billion babus or for that matter China starts choking your oil (now that you have the new love afairs' gift -- Nuclear Power Agreement this will become very soon a non issue.)

Or the plan is more sinister -- India is taking one after another very careful and measured set of steps on a game-plan that clearly smells of Regional hegemony in a big way!!!!!

The issues for us is not the millions who are going hungry in India or will go hungry -- the issue for us is much more closer to heart; these plans and steps clearly are overkill to handle the regional navies -- it is starting to look more and more like the arming of of the infamous Third Reich -- who are you going to annex next??? Is there an Austria around your borders to annex -- 

Than you wonder why people on this forum are deadly serious when it comes to India!!!!!

Food for thought my friend --- I do hope you realize where this path of arming will lead your country to. A large Army, highly trained, armed with the latest weapons, navy loking for 100 craft blue ocean force, an airforce starting to get filled with high tech weaponry -- movies spuing out the Greater Indian superiority the "Shining India," nothing can stop India becoming the power it should be -- remember the Swastika???? What india is lacking today to make this the killer brew is an Indian Hitler!!!! 

Have a nice day!!!


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## Jako

India surely wouldn't go for n-sub if pak had a no first use policy.........


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## Aamir Hussain

Dear Jako:

Do you truly belive this???

Could you please explain how the acqusition of the aircraft carrier dovetails with this theory or the reason to project airpower beyond the EEZ is to protect Indian origin citizen of say Madagascar???

Why dont you release the burden and say ou loudwhat we all know -- India is in the hunt for a regional and if luck and the right leader comes long -- a global military power -- with "Greater India of Ashoka" as the centerpiece of the empire!!!! 

May be tha saner element in you ranks can emulate Japan -- a global power without the military might to make its neighbours extremly uncomfortable!

Food for thought!


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## Jako

My dear friend amir,the aircraft career isn't targeted for pak... why would a ac be needed to counter pak,but the n-sub partially is,to develop a second strike capability for any nuke attack by pak,as you dont follow a 'no first use policy'....,.the ac is to counter rising chinese muscle flexing in the indian ocean


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Why india needs a nuclear sub---the question must be asked---why not. 

For a country or a geographical area that has been ruled by foreigners for a thousand years, beaten and pummelled for centuries by people in search of new kingdoms or new conquests for the crown---it seems very natural that the indians would want to have their say in the world and especially at a time when their economy is strong and there is a lots of money in the coffers to buy or produce whatever they want, when their educated people are in high demand the world over, when every single nation of the world wants to do business with them and have better relations with them---it would seem foolish not to step into the natural progression.

It almost seems like the case of MANIFEST DESTINY. The indians won't be running away from it. The decision regarding their future was already made a long time ago. It was just a matter of time, when they would break their self imposed shackles and stand free.

So, nothing surprising about the first of the ten nuclear submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Super Falcon

we will use our nukes for sure if india tried to occupy pak territory what is the reason than keeping nukes


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## Aamir Hussain

My Friend Jako Sahib:

It would be better for this region if India concetrate on economic co-prosperity sphere instead of going after chariots of WAR -- as MastanKhan Sahib rightly pointed out --it is difficult to ignore India in the new scheme of things wether military or no military. 

May be it is time to think differently ....


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## maverick2009

Master Khan is right. 

India is a big country with BIG GDP so why should it not have 1 or 5 or even 10 nuke subs. 

Thats wat BIG countries have


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## Developereo

I think we are missing the point here.

The SSBN is not meant as a gesture towards Pakistan. India believes it has neutralized Pakistan as an offensive threat long ago and is now eyeing the big leagues.

With the SSBN, the space program, the top billionaires list, etc., India is joining a number of exclusive clubs and is ticking all the right boxes to sit at the Big Boys table. And it will be welcomed by the West which has been helping India and cultivating it as a counterweight against China.

Of course, India still has enormous poverty and internal problems but, unlike us, they are moving in the right direction. They have a world class education system that churns out very smart people, a growing economy that brings in forex, and a very effective propaganda and diplomacy apparatus active around the world.

The Pakistan armed forces have done remarkably well given our country's far more limited resources and the sanctions, but we cannot continue this arms race with India unless we improve our fundamentals. We seriously need to grow our economy and upgrade our educational base. We also need to forge strong military alliances in the region. A couple of PAF bases and nuclear-armed Agostas parked in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would cause much insomnia in Delhi.

As other people have noted, we need a Putin. A no-nonsense tough guy who will take all our pathetic, corrupt politicians with their interminable petty squabbles and lock them in a room -- and then get on with the important task of taking the country forward.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## dbc

Developereo said:


> As other people have noted, we need a Putin. A no-nonsense tough guy who will take all our pathetic, corrupt politicians with their interminable petty squabbles and lock them in a room -- and then get on with the important task of taking the country forward.


Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.
Getting back to the Indian nuclear sub, I was debating nuclear deterrence with A1kaid on another thread - now that India has second strike capability what happens to MAD?


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## Patriot

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.
> Getting back to the Indian nuclear sub, I was debating nuclear deterrence with A1kaid on another thread - now that India has second strike capability what happens to MAD?


The scenerio has always been MAD..If Pakistan and India ever goes Nuclear it will be Mutually Assured Desturction.


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## muse

A bigger fish to fry than Nuclear Submarines?



* Strategic stability in South Asia *



Saturday, August 01, 2009
Tariq Osman Hyder

The launch of India's first missile-capable nuclear submarine, the latest proliferation of lethal WMD in the region, has serious implications for South Asia and beyond. It poses response choices for Pakistan to avert strategic imbalance. India must also reflect on what kind of an overarching architecture of relationship it wishes in the long term to evolve with Pakistan. How far is India's strategic and conventional build-up a consequence of its threat perceptions or motivated by the objective of threat projection and hegemony. Furthermore the international community must reassess its responsibility for this deterioration and how it should act in future to support peace and security in South Asia. 

_*Pakistan continues to perceive that, while socio-economic progress and combating extremism constitute core objectives, its main existential threat continues to emanate from India. An India in which core policy makers and influential segments continue to regard the creation of Pakistan from "mother India" as a historical mistake, which at best may still be undone and till then Pakistan should be dealt with so that it gives up its support for Kashmiri self-determination and acquiesces to a subordinate role in South Asia*_.

Pakistan, though a significant middle order country, has always faced an asymmetrical imbalance and threat in the conventional field from a much larger India. Pakistan's hard won nuclear capability has kept the peace by providing, through a credible minimum nuclear deterrent, strategic stability in South Asia.

The peace process, the composite dialogue which was set in motion between the two countries in 2004 was an effort to manage the different facets of this difficult relationship with the objective of resolving disputes in a peaceful manner acceptable to both sides so that both countries could increasingly concentrate on improving the lives of their peoples in a region which had increasingly fallen behind the rest of the world.

As part of the composite dialogue expert level talks were initiated on both nuclear and conventional CBMs. In the first Nuclear CBMs meeting in June 2004, both sides agreed that the nuclear capabilities of each other, which are based on their national security imperatives, constitute a factor for stability. Two main agreements on pre-notification of ballistic missile tests and reduction of risks of accidents related to nuclear weapons were signed. Even before India broke off the peace process after the Mumbai incident, the peace process had slowed down. There was no concrete movement on the core issue of Kashmir and no promise of movement on Siachin, Sir Creek and the Indus Waters which provide Pakistan's life blood. *While the nuclear CBMs agreements continue to hold, there was no forward movement and India wanted to de-link itself from Pakistan even in this nuclear CBMs field in which India reversed the maxim of thinking globally and acting locally.

In this India has been encouraged by a number of developments. The US-Indo nuclear deal was the high water mark of this bilateral strategic partnership. The United States lost the opportunity of encouraging nuclear restraint in South Asia while providing civil nuclear power to both fossil fuel deficit countries. The agreement enhanced India's strategic capability, freeing its limited uranium reserves for military use and keeping eight reactors out of safeguards with the ability to produce fissile material for 280 nuclear weapons annually, apart from its equally un-safeguarded 13 breeder reactors programme.

The US, Israel and Russia agreed to cooperate with India for its ABM programme which would further destabilise the strategic balance and force Pakistan to increase its missile throw weight. India rejected and the international community did not support Pakistan's proposal for a Strategic Restraint Regime with its three interlocking elements of conflict resolution, nuclear and missile restraint, including non-introduction of ABMs, and conventional balance, to avoid an unnecessary arms race.

Russia over almost two decades supported India's nuclear submarine project through technology, technical advice and leasing of nuclear submarines. India's cruise missile Brahmos was jointly developed with Russia*.

The first stage of India's nuclear submarine project is to build five submarines carrying 12 nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles at first with a range of between 300-700 kilometres and then of 3500 kilometres. The two Akula class submarines to be leased from Russia would carry some 48 ballistic missiles between them. Hence, this submarine-based part of the ambitious India nuclear triad of land-, air- and sea-based nuclear weapons would have some 100+ nuclear weapons at its disposal. The other air launched gravity nuclear weapons, land launched ballistic missiles, tactical nuclear weapons and land, air and sea launched cruise missiles would make up a formidable nuclear delivery capability.

India justifies this build-up as it claims that it faces potential threats from China as well as from Pakistan. While US wants to build up India as a counter to China's growing influence, and Russia may wish to do so to a lesser degree apart from maintaining its strategic partnership with India in the face of growing American influence, given the growing economic and political relationship between India and China, no objective strategist has been able to postulate any credible conflict scenario between the two countries. 

On the other hand, *95 percent of India's military potential is targeted against Pakistan. The planned nuclear submarine fleet with its short range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles is Pakistan-specific*

*Despite policy statements of wanting better relations with Pakistan, India's "Cold Start" or proactive military doctrine aims at giving India the ability of rapidly seizing parts of Pakistan while remaining under the nuclear threshold. Hence, while the nuclear submarine-based fleet has been justified to provide India with an assured second strike capability, which it claims is necessitated by its "no-first-use" doctrine, it will be used to reinforce the "cold start" objectives by reinforcing pressure on Pakistan not to use nuclear weapons, tactical or strategic, to deter or counter any Indian thrust into Pakistan*.

Pakistan's response has been that it will take all steps to safeguard its security and to maintain strategic balance in the region. *What should Pakistan do?* *First of all develop its own second strike nuclear submarine based capability on which it must have given some thought having been long aware of the Indian programme. Secondly, equip its conventional submarines with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Thirdly, as the Russian assistance to India for this project, and the lack of any objection from the US or any other party has shown that both leasing of nuclear submarines and technology for their production are completely compatible with the global non-proliferation regime, Pakistan should explore such possibilities. Fourthly, the most important lesson for Pakistan, a latecomer by necessity as a nuclear state, is that while it does not have to match India, nuclear weapon by nuclear weapon, even so, to maintain strategic stability in these changing and adverse ground realities, it will need to continue its modest fissile material production in the foreseeable future and cannot brook any developments or negotiations counter to this vital national security requirement*. *Hence, faced with these escalating threats Pakistan must oppose the initiation of negotiations on the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty, which countries, with their own comfortable fissile material stockpiles and who have also helped arm India, want to begin and prioritise in the conference on Disarmament in Geneva, specifically at Pakistan's expense, and if negotiations begin, not to accept any outcome detrimental to Pakistan' strategic and energy security. If our policy makers and negotiators in Geneva do not live up to this task they will never be forgiven by the nation.*


The writer, a former diplomat, headed Pakistan's delegation in talks with India on nuclear and conventional CBMs (2004-2007). Email: ambassador.tariqosmanhyder@ gmail.com

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## glomex

Aamir Hussain said:


> Dear Glomax Sahib:
> 
> Why does India need a Nuclear submarine??? Is it under threat from US, UK, Russia, China or the more lethal nations like Mauratius, Siri Lanka (now that they have taken care of the Tamils they can shift their sights on Indian Tamils) or is it truly Bangladesh which has its hands on the Indian Jagular????
> 
> Come on guys why this offensive arming ? This makes all the regional countries nervous and as a result the start arming! It is a zero sum game.
> 
> Do you all truly believe you have a real threat from anywhere -- is US going to land its troops and take over a a nation of billion babus or for that matter China starts choking your oil (now that you have the new love afairs' gift -- Nuclear Power Agreement this will become very soon a non issue.)
> 
> Or the plan is more sinister -- India is taking one after another very careful and measured set of steps on a game-plan that clearly smells of Regional hegemony in a big way!!!!!
> 
> The issues for us is not the millions who are going hungry in India or will go hungry -- the issue for us is much more closer to heart; these plans and steps clearly are overkill to handle the regional navies -- it is starting to look more and more like the arming of of the infamous Third Reich -- who are you going to annex next??? Is there an Austria around your borders to annex --
> 
> Than you wonder why people on this forum are deadly serious when it comes to India!!!!!
> 
> Food for thought my friend --- I do hope you realize where this path of arming will lead your country to. A large Army, highly trained, armed with the latest weapons, navy loking for 100 craft blue ocean force, an airforce starting to get filled with high tech weaponry -- movies spuing out the Greater Indian superiority the "Shining India," nothing can stop India becoming the power it should be -- remember the Swastika???? What india is lacking today to make this the killer brew is an Indian Hitler!!!!
> 
> Have a nice day!!!



Why Does China need all those nuclear submarines.....do you ask the same question to them......

India has all the right in the world to strengthen its Armed forces and so does Pakistan.......India has a coastline may be 10 times that of Pakistan so we need more Warships and Submarines than Pakistan....


YOu may claim Indias plans to be sinister....but tell me ...why should India look up to America or any country as a lesser threat......just because we have trade relations with major powers it does not mean they will not attack India in future...who knows...Americans were friends of Pakistan sometime back and now most of the Pakistanis look at them as enemies..


India also aspires to be Regional power just like Pakistan aspires to be a Islamic Power....why doubt our intentions ....Pakistan also adds Alll kind of weaponry ...and its not just for fun...

Don't worry about Millions Indians being Hungry....we are not going out with a begging bowl to the world forum ..asking for more money every quarter.....nor we ask for loan waivers..from IMF.....

A strong defense force is a requisite if you have to grow as a Powerful economy and India will keep on doing that whatever people may say...
Your thoughts are skewed because you have only seen dictoatorships for Most of the time in past 6 decades..but India had been a democracy....so don't worry we are not going to have a Hitler anytime soon...or may be ever....


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## Super Falcon

china has USA and india as her bigger enemies and world's Biggest country voth by land and peoples live in it it needs power full millitary to counter underdogs india and USA against china


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## SBD-3

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.


lolz well it depends, lets take a scenario that Russians realize after a while and they beg for the reversal of deal.


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## Mercenary

Patriot said:


> The scenerio has always been MAD..If Pakistan and India ever goes Nuclear it will be Mutually Assured Desturction.



No thats not possible.

Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.


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## duhastmish

Mercenary said:


> No thats not possible.
> 
> Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.
> 
> A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.



Dude - nuke wars are not child's play. if there will be any kind of nuke war and - either country end up hurting civilian means - world intervention and - wiping of that country from planet earth. and people are not idiot in either countries to let their goverment bomb - innocent civilian on both sides. so lets not take it too far - to full scale nuke war.

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## Patriot

Mercenary said:


> No thats not possible.
> 
> Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.
> 
> A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.


Well, Even if we destroy 60% of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.


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## third eye

Patriot said:


> Well, Even if we destroy 60&#37; of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.



To 'destroy' 60 % of a land mass as large as India is simply not possible. In any case what does " destroy' mean ? After the 1st strike should any nation allow its adversary to retain delivery systems for the next ? 

Winds change direction at diff times of the year. I agree that a nuc situation is quite worthless. A nuke loses its relevance once used. 

It is worth considering the fact tha all major Pk rivers originate from India & flow in the N- S direction. The implications are enormous.


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## maverick2009

You people talk about nuclear war like it was a border Skirmesh with Rifles. 

The so called Civlised world has had Nuke weapons for over 60 years. 

Never been used. 

Unless our Gov,ts are crazed lunnatic animals/ caveman with no comprehension of wat a nuke war head can do " i don,t think we will ever see a nuke war in indo/pak or indo/china conflict. 

However I DO THINK A SMALL CONVENTIONAL border clash can happen with india pakistan.. 
But the World will stop it very quckily. 

We like to think we are independant free nations can do what we like no one can stop us. 

ITS RUBBISH we are both at the mercy of the UN. and the world..

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## maverick2009

By the Way Great post by a Newbie Developro

_I think we are missing the point here.

The SSBN is not meant as a gesture towards Pakistan. India believes it has neutralized Pakistan as an offensive threat long ago and is now eyeing the big leagues.

With the SSBN, the space program, the top billionaires list, etc., India is joining a number of exclusive clubs and is ticking all the right boxes to sit at the Big Boys table. And it will be welcomed by the West which has been helping India and cultivating it as a counterweight against China.

Of course, India still has enormous poverty and internal problems but, unlike us, they are moving in the right direction. They have a world class education system that churns out very smart people, a growing economy that brings in forex, and a very effective propaganda and diplomacy apparatus active around the world.

The Pakistan armed forces have done remarkably well given our country's far more limited resources and the sanctions, but we cannot continue this arms race with India unless we improve our fundamentals. We seriously need to grow our economy and upgrade our educational base. We also need to forge strong military alliances in the region. A couple of PAF bases and nuclear-armed Agostas parked in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would cause much insomnia in Delhi.

As other people have noted, we need a Putin. A no-nonsense tough guy who will take all our pathetic, corrupt politicians with their interminable petty squabbles and lock them in a room -- and then get on with the important task of taking the country forward. _


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## Hutchroy

Patriot said:


> Well, Even if we destroy 60% of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..*keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed*.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.



I hope you are aware that the Indian Subcontinent gets two Monsoon Rains i.e. South West Monsoon and North East Monsoon.

In the First Case the SW Winds travel up to the Gangetic Plain from where they are deflected and take a North Westerly direction towards Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In the Second Case the NE Winds travel from Tibet etc. to India.

Thus the reality is exactly apposed to your assumptions.

IOW : Pakistan will suffer from Dropping Nuclear Bombs on India however all Indian Nuclear Attacks on Pakistan will carry the "Radiation + Fissile Material" (please correct my terminology) towards Afghanistan etc.

A School Book on Geography should suffice.


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## Spring Onion

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.



would be great deal for us


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## trickey

Super Falcon said:


> we will use our nukes for sure if india tried to occupy pak territory what is the reason than keeping nukes



India already occupies a significant chunk of territory that Pakistan claims it's own.


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## trickey

Aamir Hussain said:


> Dear Jako:
> 
> Do you truly belive this???
> 
> Could you please explain how the acqusition of the aircraft carrier dovetails with this theory or the reason to project airpower beyond the EEZ is to protect Indian origin citizen of say Madagascar???
> 
> Why dont you release the burden and say ou loudwhat we all know -- India is in the hunt for a regional and if luck and the right leader comes long -- a global military power -- with "Greater India of Ashoka" as the centerpiece of the empire!!!!
> 
> May be tha saner element in you ranks can emulate Japan -- a global power without the military might to make its neighbours extremly uncomfortable!
> 
> Food for thought!



Can't afford to be Japan when there is North Korea in our neighbourhood.


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## SBD-3

trickey said:


> Can't afford to be Japan when there is North Korea in our neighbourhood.


North Korea ------------------>Pakistan or China?


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## Developereo

hasnain0099 said:


> North Korea ------------------>Pakistan or China?



Why do you feed trolls?


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## SBD-3

Developereo said:


> Why do you feed trolls?



for nothing


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## samiullahawan

Does Pakistan will made nuclear submarine in 1 year?

I have confirmed information that its almost completed!!!

Anyone with more information or wants to comment!!!


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## samiullahawan

I mean its about to complete.....


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## MZUBAIR

samiullahawan said:


> I mean its about to complete.....



Dear , How can u say that..............

I havent heard any Nuke submarine plan.


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## LiberalPakistani

Good News Pakistan will not lack behind in India in this arms race that India has started as Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto said "we will eat grass and make a bomb" we must never back down to fight no matter what is the outcome whether we lose or win.

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## Zarbe Momin

I think pakistan will not go for nuclear submarine pakistan will go for Diesel submarines, if Pakistan choose U214 then its ok.


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## black tiger

Hi,
In the present scenario it will be better for pakistan to improve its land based deterent ie. Induct shaheen or add a new long range missile, plus acquire good ASW capability via indution of OHP's p3c's and ultimately U_214. This would be more practical, cost effective and can restore balance faster than induction of an SSBN which would be phenominally costly. That money can be better spent elsewhere. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you guys....

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## samiullahawan

but guys i think its really important for Pakistan to have Nuke Submarine....nd soon u people will hear this good news of Pakistan becoming 8th country of world to have Nuke Submarine.InsAllah


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## DaRk WaVe

samiullahawan said:


> Does Pakistan will made nuclear submarine in 1 year?
> 
> I have confirmed information that its almost completed!!!
> 
> Anyone with more information or wants to comment!!!



wats ur source????


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## Guest

well, i would be appreciated if you could answer these questions
1) nuclear subs cost billions not millions to be build, where did the money comes from?
2) which countrys would be the sources of these technologies or materals(powerplants, communication, weapon systems, and the steels that are used to bulid the main frame)?
3) where is this sub to be build?

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## Machoman

Hawa may teer chalana mana nahi hai, no news no proof.


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## DesiGuy

samiullahawan said:


> Does Pakistan will made nuclear submarine in 1 year?akistan:
> 
> I have confirmed information that its almost completed!!!
> 
> Anyone with more information or wants to comment!!!





Why Pakistan people are not thinking of improving economy rather than thinking about military? no offense. 


i don't think India will attack Pakistan, because India want to improve it's economy to catch up with china. 

So Pakistan should also try to catch up with India in economic development, than military.

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## Myth_buster_1

Nuclear sub is waist of investment for pakistan at the moment! the amount of money we are going to spend on just nuclear reactor we can probably afford world class submarine. 
IMO PN will be better off with more type-214 then nuclear powered subs of its own.


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## samiullahawan

Haven't u heard chief of naval staff that we will go for nuke sub......though i can't tell my source but its confirm nd as i said before u will soon have good news of nuke sub of Pakistan!!!!

Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......u can bet on this if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever...


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

samiullahawan said:


> I have confirmed information that its almost completed!!!



Your source is???????? How can you claim that the news is "confirmed info."? You should nt be reluctant to disclose the source esp. if it only a year away.....


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## samiullahawan

Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......*u can bet on this* if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever.....


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## xebex

samiullahawan said:


> Does Pakistan will made nuclear submarine in 1 year?
> 
> *I have confirmed information* that its almost completed!!!
> 
> Anyone with more information or wants to comment!!!





samiullahawan said:


> Haven't u heard chief of naval staff that we will go for nuke sub......though i can't tell my source but its confirm nd as i said before u will soon have good news of nuke sub of Pakistan!!!!



dude u cant just simply claim that u have confirmed information without providing us any source.......u simply cant.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DesiGuy said:


> Why Pakistan people are not thinking of improving economy rather than thinking about military? no offense.
> 
> 
> i don't think India will attack Pakistan, because India want to improve it's economy to catch up with china.
> 
> So Pakistan should also try to catch up with India in economic development, than military.


*
This is not the economy section, and this is not the first time you have brought in issues irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You will be banned next time.

Threads merged, since there was no source given for the post by samiullahawan, and it falls in the category of the existing thread.*


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

samiullahawan said:


> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......*u can bet on this* if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever.....



Meri jaan.................. the thing is that "nothing is impossible. I strongly believe that.
I do know that Pakistan knew from the very beginning( several , several yrs ago) that IN was working on a nuclear sub.
But what does nt add up is that do we have any subs that can be modified to accommodate a reactor & such? Arent nuke subs very large & such? I am not an expert when it comes to ships etc so I am just wondering if we are actually able to pull it off. off course, China would help in such an undertaking.

If you have a solid source , pls share it or atleast pm that info to Pakistani ember if you wish not to indulge such info on a forum so we can vouch based on the source.


---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *
> This is not the economy section, and this is not the first time you have brought in issues irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You will be banned next time.
> 
> Threads merged, since there was no source given for the post by samiullahawan, and it falls in the category of the existing thread.*



Finally someone stick it to daisyguy.....................


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## Adios Amigo

samiullahawan said:


> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......*u can bet on this* if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever.....


 come on guys, y dont u believe him, he is on the verge of leaving this forum plz dont do that, i would like to stand with u even if there is no link provided atleast i will have fealgood effect, plus it will be good news for us in a surperising manner


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## ahf_nuke1

I am not here to disappoint anyone ...but nuclear submarine is a messy business in terms of finances and technology... even if we get one somehow ...do we have enough money to maintain it ?? It needs to be refueled with 99&#37; enriched uranium every year or two plus the other maintenance cost is also high for the reactor ...we enrich the fuel for our missiles and we do it at pretty steady level but its is kinda slow ...we will have to increase our capacity before even thinking about it other wise it will be just another ship stationed on the harbor. Russia have some of the best nuke subs ....but everyone know what happened to many of those subs due to finances ...
Navy will have to train personnel to just run this reactor under water and other things like that which our navy does not have the capability to do right now ...designing that kinda reactors is also not very easy job we haven't even designed our own civilian reactors yet ....On other hand India have designed their own reactors plus I'm pretty sure they got foreign help for this nuke sub reactor ...they were working on it for long time .....
It will be waste of our country's resources for now to go for Nuke ballistic sub...we dont need it ...We should spend more money to get more Cruise missiles and other Ballistic missiles for defenses and deploy them on our Destroyers and Frigrates .... 
Other best option is to get Attack Nuclear Sub from China ....No one else will be willing to give us that ....and start developing our own fleet of under water missiles or torpedoes which can detect and destroy this kinda threat from safe distances through air ....


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## XYON

samiullahawan said:


> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......*u can bet on this* if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever.....



Humay MAKHI PARR MAKHI NAHIN MARNI CHAHIYAY!

I think that the Arihant is designed by the Indians to have blue-water ability and to counter the increasing Chinese domination on the Indian Ocean (Gwadar, Myanmar etc). We do not necessarily need a nuke-powered sub to counter the Arihant. We just need a stronger response base, which means that if the Indians use the sub to come close to our water-line or to launch nukes at our cities we go super-ballistic with firing higher kiloton (Hydrogen Bomb?) and longer range MIRV missiles at Indian cities. In defense strategy; its not necessarily an eye for an eye all the time. You need out-of-the-box solutions to counter Goliath threats!

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## lindsyebanks

There has been talk over the years on Pakistan looking at sea based nuclear assets, but they were then discounted by the very same sources. As early as 2001, Adm Afzal Tahir (who at the time was R Adm and Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Operations) said that Pakistan may equip its submarine flotilla with nuclear weapons. This was naturally picked up around the world and resulted in the usual doomsday scenario being projected against Pakistan. Not much has been heard since and just as well. If Pakistan is to deploy/develop nuclear weapons, then there are no advantages gained by pre-announcing it. An example is Babur/Raad cruise missiles, which pretty much caught a lot of observers by surprise as the assumption had been drawn that this technology was beyond Pakistans ability.

If an SSN construction program is underway and if we momentarily put aside the question of cost, it is not unreasonable to assume that such a mammoth project is not beyond Pakistan's ability from a development standpoint. The current French Rubis SSN's shared some key components with the older Agosta 70, including using the latters hull as a baseline to some degree. Pakistan too may well feel emboldened (justifiably) that its experience assembling/part constructing (***as explained further below) Agosta 90B's has given her new found confidence to look at options of using a minitiarised reactor much as France did with the Rubis SSN's. It can safely be assumed that assistance will have been sought from other nations notably  China, but there is no assurance that this would have been forth coming - at least not likely to be acknowledged publicly. 

All this however does not take into account the pro's and con's of having an SSN or SSK fleet. For Pakistan (or any other country for that matter) the advantages of the former would have to outweight those of the latter greatly to justify build effort and funds required for undertaking an SSN build program. As an example, the french Rubis class SSN has an endurance of 45 days at sea. However its now defunct (owing to cancellation) nemesis the Turquoise class SSK which was based on the Rubis SSN had an endurance of 60 days and this was without any AIP. Fitment of an AIP to the Turquoise would have increased the endurance of the SSK to almost 90 days and that is a very very very (yes I said it 3 times) respectable figure. 

In March 1997, PN undertook a series of ASW exercises with the French navy's SSN &#8211; Amethyste in the Arabian Sea. PNS Khaiber was successful in locating the Amethyste in 7 out of the 8 scenarios exercised. Just because INS Arihant and her future sister ships have the ability to lurk outside of Karachi for months doesn&#8217;t mean they can&#8217;t be found and subsequently attacked. Anyone versed in the basics of ASW knows that current day SSK&#8217;s are still quieter than SSN&#8217;s. Neither do the SSN&#8217;s offer any advantage in littoral waters. 

Finally it would be naive to assume Pakistan Navy did not conduct feasibility studies  to ascertain their ability to have an SSN fleet or nuclear armed SSK's for that matter. Global Politics and not just funds would dictate Pakistan&#8217;s decision to ply forward with any SSN development plans.

* as noted above, the term "assembly/part constructed" is used as it correctly describes the SSK building process vis-a-vis Pakistan whereby all the sub-assembly components were sourced and cannot be duplicated in Pakistan, e.g. fire control system, propulsion, AIP etc

*Please see the link and corresponding below report*_. 
Urdu
Urdu Daily: Pakistan Building Nuclear Submarine
An Urdu-language Pakistani daily reveals that Pakistan has speeded up the building up of its nuclear submarine after India launched its nuclear submarine recently.
According to a report in the Urdu-language newspaper Roznama Nawa-i-Waqt, "about this [Pakistani] project, utmost secrecy is being maintained."
The report added: "Nawa-i-Waqt has learned that Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and the Pakistan Navy are jointly working on this project rapidly. However, everyone [involved in it] has adopted total silence."
Source: Roznama Nawa-i-Waqt, Pakistan, August 3, 2009
_

Regards,

Lindsy

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## wild peace

DesiGuy said:


> Why Pakistan people are not thinking of improving economy rather than thinking about military? no offense.
> 
> 
> i don't think India will attack Pakistan, because India want to improve it's economy to catch up with china.
> 
> So Pakistan should also try to catch up with India in economic development, than military.


Hahahahaa econnomy:. theives stole it if you do not have the power.


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## SBD-3

samiullahawan said:


> Haven't u heard chief of naval staff that we will go for nuke sub......though i can't tell my source but its confirm nd as i said before u will soon have good news of nuke sub of Pakistan!!!!
> 
> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......u can bet on this if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever...



lols well i don't doubt your sincerity but producing a miniature reactor is a very costly thing and one needs a lot of help just like India got from Russia and *There is NO!need for us to go for a nuke sub* we should enhance our subs to fire SL Babur and enhance their carriage capacity that all we already have excellent platform and we will Inshallah get U-214 if we can improve its design then it can be a hell of goodness for PN no nukes required IMHO


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## wild peace

Choosing French Submarine over German? : Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence ?
Published by editor Pakistan Aug 3, 2009


*A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.*

However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navys persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his militarys preference for the German subs to take up a better offer from France.

But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment, whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.

What France has in store?

There are three options 1. Scorpion, 2. Marlin and 3. *Barracuda* submarines. But again the scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.

U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales), France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians.

Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine, but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.

Despite having French Agosta B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta B due to the superior German technology.

Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.

Following is the comparison between French subs and German U 214.

Specifications of U-214

Crew

27 (including five officers)
Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes

Six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes

Combat Data Syetem

Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)

Countermeasures:

ESM

EADS

FL1800U

Decoys

TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

Radar

Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar

Sonar

STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes

Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack

Propulsion

Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW
U214 Dimensions:

Length

64m

Height

13m

Surface Displacement

1,700m³

Presure Hull Diameter

6.3m

Buoyancy Reserve 10%
U214 Performance:

Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance

6kt

Range

12,000nm

Mission Endurance

12 weeks

Constantly Submerged

Three weeks without snorkelling

Mission Sprint Speed

15kt to 20kt

Maximum Dive Depth

400m+

Scorpion (Scorpène) Subs (French One) Specifications

Key Data:

Crew

32
Dimensions:

Overall Length

63.5m

Draught

5.4m

Submerged Displacement

1,590t

Surface Displacement

1,450t

Pressure Hull Weldable and High-Tensile Steel

80HLES, more than 700Mpa
Performance:

Maximum Operating Depth

350m

Submerged Speed

Over 20 kt

Range (at 8kt)

6,400nm

Endurance

50 days
Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes / Missiles

Six 21in torpedo tubes for 18 torpedoes / missiles

Comparison
Specs Scorpion U-214 Marlin
Crew 32 27
Maximum Operating Depth


350 meters More than 400 meters
Range 6400 nm 12000 nm
Endurance 50 Days 84 Days


The comparison clearly indicates the superiority of German U-214 submarine.

If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.

Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.

Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.
On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.

Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.

In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.

There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.

are we again wasting our money on french subs?. Is their any one who kill these bas.....
GOD HELP PAKISTAN


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## Guest

Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong

1) Diesel subs can&#8217;t deliver nuke missiles, coz they are too small to lunch it. 
2) The chances of N-subs to be sunk by D-subs are extremely slim, and ambush is the only chance for D-subs. Coz A. the N-subs can choose to engaged or not; B. the N-subs can lunch their heavy-torpedoes first and then disengaged;

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## Guest

And here are some rumors
1) China has canceled the lease of the 092G together with 12.5 billion investments in Gwadar port due to security reasons. It seems that Mr.10&#37; has chosen the 11 billion US packages rather than the Chinese package singed by the ex-president.

2) The Indian N-sub is still under construction, the nuclear power plant and weapon system are incomplete, which means it can neither move nor attack.


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## Kamakazi 69

Wont the nuclear submarine be easier to detect as it is noisier than diesel submarines?

We don't have delusions of a blue-water navy and I think our diesel electric submarines can defend our coastlines more than adequately.


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## Kamakazi 69

Guest said:


> Correct me if Im wrong
> 
> 1) Diesel subs cant deliver nuke missiles, coz they are too small to lunch it.
> 2) The chances of N-subs to be sunk by D-subs are extremely slim, and ambush is the only chance for D-subs. Coz A. the N-subs can choose to engaged or not; B. the N-subs can lunch their heavy-torpedoes first and then disengaged;




Submarine warfare is about patience and stealth. You track your enemy for an eternity while at the same time avoid him making contact with him. It's a pretty slow process. Ambushing your opponent is a very good tactic.
And considering our submarines would hesitate to go that far from the coast and take on the Indian Navy means that our tactics are well suited to diesel submarines due to the fact that they are smaller and quieter.


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## arihant

Post in wrong thread... Sorry


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## Myth_buster_1

Guest said:


> Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong
> 
> 1) Diesel subs can&#8217;t deliver nuke missiles, coz they are too small to lunch it.
> 2) The chances of N-subs to be sunk by D-subs are extremely slim, and ambush is the only chance for D-subs. Coz A. the N-subs can choose to engaged or not; B. the N-subs can lunch their heavy-torpedoes first and then disengaged;



1) Diesel subs have the capability to fire long range cruise missiles. in case of PAKistan who are already developing Sub-launch version of babur Cruise missile which will be equipped in Augosta-90B and Type-214.
2) i have no idea from where you got that. but in indo-pak context a good top of the line diesel sub like type-214 have alot of advantages over average nuclear powered sub like Arihant or even chinese. 
a) stay undetected on sea bed more effectively.
b) very very very low Acoustics signature meaning very hard to detect.
c) more torpedo tubes meaning more armaments can be launched at same time. Primary torpedoes are DM2A4 and Black shark which are by far one of the best long range torpedoes. in fact DM2A4 have the longest range and the most deadliest which is not going to be equipped in arihant. 
and no.. ambush is not the only chance their are many other ways.

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## Guest

Growler said:


> 1) Diesel subs have the capability to fire long range cruise missiles. in case of PAKistan who are already developing Sub-launch version of babur Cruise missile which will be equipped in Augosta-90B and Type-214.
> 2) i have no idea from where you got that. but in indo-pak context a good top of the line diesel sub like type-214 have alot of advantages over average nuclear powered sub like Arihant or even chinese.
> a) stay undetected on sea bed more effectively.
> b) very very very low Acoustics signature meaning very hard to detect.
> c) more torpedo tubes meaning more armaments can be launched at same time. Primary torpedoes are DM2A4 and Black shark which are by far one of the best long range torpedoes. in fact DM2A4 have the longest range and the most deadliest which is not going to be equipped in arihant.
> and no.. ambush is not the only chance their are many other ways.



1) Well, I dont think any countries dare to mount a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile, just like no countries would mount a conventional warhead on a ballistic missile. Its a universal acknowledgement that a CM means conventional and a BM means nuclear, so I think it will remain the same in the foreseeable future. 

2) In a scout mission, you are right. D-subs are quiet and difficult to detect. But in a hunting context, where the N-subs are deployed to hunt down the quiet enemies, its quite a different story. The N-sub will turn on all its active detectors, so hiding is meaningless. Furthermore, the range of the torpedoes is not a constant. 50KMs may be is the longest range of DM2A4 while attacking a sit-still target. But for a fish that can swim at 30+ knots, its effective range would reduce significantly (5-8 KMs maybe). And how fast can a D-sub run underwater: 10 or 20 knot at the most, which means the effective range, for its enemy, would be 8-11KMs. And that would be the differences between live and death.


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## Myth_buster_1

IMO indian troller? 
In advance sorry if you are a pakistan.



Guest said:


> 1) Well, I dont think any countries dare to mount a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile, just like no countries would mount a conventional warhead on a ballistic missile. Its a universal acknowledgement that a CM means conventional and a BM means nuclear, so I think it will remain the same in the foreseeable future.


did you read your own post? because it does not make sense to me. 
Pakistan did not produce long range Cruise missiles for just "conventional" warhead. its only your opinion based on unknown facts that pakistan will not use nukes on Sub launch CM. and no no.. its not a universal acknowledgmnet but its all based on doctrines. for intense pakistan will not be shy to use nukes on just about any means of delivering be it CM BM MRCAs or any platforms. 


> 2) In a scout mission, you are right. D-subs are quiet and difficult to detect. But in a hunting context, where the N-subs are deployed to hunt down the quiet enemies, its quite a different story.


huh? their is no such thing as "N-subs deployed to hunt quietest subs". it all depends on classification of the submarines.

SSBN ballistic nuclear missile-carrying submarine
SSGN Cruise missile submarine
SSK long-range attack submarine
SSN nuclear-powered fast attack submarine



> The N-sub will turn on all its active detectors, so hiding is meaningless. Furthermore, the range of the torpedoes is not a constant. 50KMs may be is the longest range of DM2A4 while attacking a sit-still target.


seriously....? what active detectors? please enlighten us. furthermore please enlighten us a little bit about this "meaningless hiding" for "D-SUB". 


> But for a fish that can swim at 30+ knots, its effective range would reduce significantly (5-8 KMs maybe).


A dream come true for a SSK specially when its on a hunt for Nuclear sub. do you know how much acoustic signature average nuclear sub like Arihant is going to be generating at this speed? like i said before. a dream come true for ASuW Aircraft, Frigates, corvettes, etc...


> And how fast can a D-sub run underwater: 10 or 20 knot at the most, which means the effective range, for its enemy, would be 8-11KMs. And that would be the differences between live and death.


all i have to say.. you have a long way to learn and understand this subject. 

please dont mind if you are a pakistani which i highly dough

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## Guest

Growler said:


> IMO indian troller?
> In advance sorry if you are a pakistan.


indian troller? No! i'm just standing for the N-subs.



Growler said:


> did you read your own post? because it does not make sense to me.
> Pakistan did not produce long range Cruise missiles for just "conventional" warhead. its only your opinion based on unknown facts that pakistan will not use nukes on Sub launch CM. and no no.. its not a universal acknowledgmnet but its all based on doctrines. for intense pakistan will not be shy to use nukes on just about any means of delivering be it CM BM MRCAs or any platforms.


of course you can, but you have to shoulder the consequences as well. that 's why US have to ask permittion from Russia,UK,China... etc before mounting converntional warheads on BMs. guess what, she got nothing but "No"s, no one wants to cross that red line and trigger a nuclear war accidentally.



Growler said:


> huh? their is no such thing as "N-subs deployed to hunt quietest subs". it all depends on classification of the submarines.
> 
> SSBN ballistic nuclear missile-carrying submarine
> SSGN Cruise missile submarine
> SSK long-range attack submarine
> SSN nuclear-powered fast attack submarine


what classification is irrelevant. as long as they are nuclear powered, they are fast and have the energy to power up all the equipments on board as long as they wished.



Growler said:


> seriously....? what active detectors? please enlighten us. furthermore please enlighten us a little bit about this "meaningless hiding" for "D-SUB".


low/high frequency active sonar or even midium frequency ones whose feed back data are perfect to be used in underwater image processing.



Growler said:


> A dream come true for a SSK specially when its on a hunt for Nuclear sub. do you know how much acoustic signature average nuclear sub like Arihant is going to be generating at this speed? like i said before. a dream come true for ASuW Aircraft, Frigates, corvettes, etc...


well, i suppose we are talking about an one on one scenario. a system confrontation would be quite different of course, and i'm sure you will figure out a best system to match the enemies.



Growler said:


> all i have to say.. you have a long way to learn and understand this subject.


prove me wrong plz. "officially 'greater than 5 miles' " is the wiki data. 



Growler said:


> please dont mind if you are a pakistani which i highly dough


at least you got this right, i'm a .
BTW, how to deter the enemy N-subs is not a fresh topic for PLAN. and yellow water, <=200KMs off shore, ambush seems to be the option available.


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## black tiger

Hi,
Reading above post's gives me an imprrssion that some of you feel that in a confrontation between an SSN & an SSK(note SSBN's are stragergic weapons they prefer to lurk far from enemy vessels ready to launch once the go ahead is given, their torpedoes are for defence only, no SSBN captain would risk his boat and his country's stratrgic trump card on an wild goose chase) In a confrontation between an SSK & an SSN, the SSN enters the field with an distinc disadvantages ie.it cannot shut down all it's equipments and go totally silent, it has to keep it's coolant pumps running. From then on the outcome is determined by onboard systems.
Regarding using active sonar, submarines prefer to remain quiet, because their strength lies in stealth once that is compromised then they can be easily destroyed, and further passive sonar has long range, for example us SSBN's can allegedly listen to target's hundred's of km away and take evasive action. Whereas active sonar is very short range and further ur passive sonar becomes useless when you are active, and every one in the area can can hear you & u might attract unwanted company. Hope this helps.
Thank you.

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## sadiqams

The indian made nuclear sub has no nuclear reactor, as yet, so how is it a nuclear sub?


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## Myth_buster_1

Guest said:


> i
> 
> 
> 
> of course you can, but you have to shoulder the consequences as well. that 's why US have to ask permittion from Russia,UK,China... etc before mounting converntional warheads on BMs. guess what, she got nothing but "No"s, no one wants to cross that red line and trigger a nuclear war accidentally.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. and where you get your information from? what ever you have heard about this subject please kindly leave it behind and listen to some credible information.
> Perior to 2008 French nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle use to carry live nuclear warheads! its a freaking "AIR CRAFT CARRIER"! i am not going to emphasize on that every nuclear power country carries nukes on their platforms but all i have to say when the situation arise for any country they are going to make it dam sure that their nuclear weapons are deployed!
> in case of pak-indo... i too agree that in peace time both of their side wont carry around nuclear weapons under normal circumstances but like i have said before it wont take much time in tense situation to do so..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what classification is irrelevant. as long as they are nuclear powered, they are fast and have the energy to power up all the equipments on board as long as they wished.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do not know of what you are talking about. nuclear powered submarines do not necessarily means they are the best subs in the world! you can have a nuclear powered sub from 60s and get toasted by average 21st century diesel sub. you have to be spesific about which sub you are talking about. you can not win arguments about nuclear powered subs based on technicality of superior US nuclear submarine and say indian or chinese nuclear subs are one of the best in the world.
> another thing. like black tiger has said above..
> 
> 
> 
> submarines prefer to remain quiet, because their strength lies in stealth once that is compromised then they can be easily destroyed,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in your case running indian/chinese nuclear powered subs on top speed will result in increase of its acoustic signature and detection of the sub.
> 
> 
> 
> low/high frequency active sonar or even midium frequency ones whose feed back data are perfect to be used in underwater image processing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and?
> 
> 
> 
> well, i suppose we are talking about an one on one scenario. a system confrontation would be quite different of course, and i'm sure you will figure out a best system to match the enemies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> to be precise Type-214 vs Arihant....
> 
> 
> 
> prove me wrong plz. "officially 'greater than 5 miles' " is the wiki data.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "WIKIPEDIA" and thats were everything gets wrong
Click to expand...


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## garibnawaz

nightrider_saulat said:


> *NEWS AGOSTA SUBS FRON FRANCE AND UPGRADES ON AGOSTA 70s
> CAN BE A VERY GOOD DEAL FOR PN AT THIS PART OF TIME*



Operational life for Augosta-70's is over. The new boats are simply going to replace the 70's.

GB


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## SEAL

samiullahawan said:


> Haven't u heard chief of naval staff that we will go for nuke sub......though i can't tell my source but its confirm nd as i said before u will soon have good news of nuke sub of Pakistan!!!!
> 
> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......u can bet on this if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever...



I totally agree with you


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## praveen

> I think we are missing the point here.
> 
> The SSBN is not meant as a gesture towards Pakistan. India believes it has neutralized Pakistan as an offensive threat long ago and is now eyeing the big leagues.



good point.You dont need a SSBN for Pakistan whose cities are quite near to the fence


> With the SSBN, the space program, the top billionaires list, etc., India is joining a number of exclusive clubs and is ticking all the right boxes to sit at the Big Boys table. And it will be welcomed by the West which has been helping India and cultivating it as a counterweight against China.
> 
> Of course, India still has enormous poverty and internal problems but, unlike us, they are moving in the right direction. They have a world class education system that churns out very smart people, a growing economy that brings in forex, and a very effective propaganda and diplomacy apparatus active around the world.
> 
> 
> The Pakistan armed forces have done remarkably well given our country's far more limited resources and the sanctions, but we cannot continue this arms race with India unless we improve our fundamentals.



Democracy,Hard work and dedication worked for us .We started nation building 63 years back and we will continue it for eternity

When will Pakistan start nation building



> We also need to forge strong military alliances in the region. A couple of PAF bases and nuclear-armed Agostas parked in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would cause much insomnia in Delhi.


.
Sri Lanka and Bangladesh may not be friendly to us ,but they do not want to be an enemy of a billion people esp Sri Lanka

How are you going to secure Logistic lines for those two bases?


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## IceCold

praveen said:


> When will Pakistan start nation building



I dont think any Indian needs to worry about that. Tough times does not mean we do not have a nation or we do not understand the concept of nation building or for that matter we havent started one.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> I dont think any Indian needs to worry about that. Tough times does not mean we do not have a nation or we do not understand the concept of nation building or for that matter we havent started one.



perhaps they must focus on there on nation and nationalist building and empowerment, i wonder if the neuclear sub can bring food to million who sleep with out a dinner, every day since years,,,

nation building and power projection are two different points,,,
i hope they understand!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

*Pakistan possible answer against india neculear submarine *

i think we got the answer!!
Inshallah..

have a look:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/32890-good-news-pn-u-214-deal-being-finalized-2.html

regards!


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## wild peace

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!


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## LCA Tejas

wild peace said:


> Happy Defence Day to all of you,
> 
> May Pakistan Live long,
> Inshallah!



happy defense day guys


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## PakShaheen79

praveen said:


> good point.You dont need a SSBN for
> 
> When will Pakistan start nation building



Have you done your's if not please don't worry about Pakistan.


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## deathfromabove

*India&#8217;s Arihant &#8212; upping the psychological ante*

Shireen M Mazari

Coming back to the Indian nuclear powered submarine &#8211; it should be pointed out that we do not yet know how it will perform once its reactor goes critical. Will it actually have the speed and capability &#8211; given that it has been built with Soviet/Russian technology and the fate of many Soviet/Russian subs lies at the bottom of the seas &#8211; taking a heavy toll of human life and reflecting the limitations of Soviet weapon systems?

While Pakistan&#8217;s decision makers squabble over whether to go ahead and implement the 2008 decision of buying German submarines or alter course and seek more French subs instead, India has put its prototype nuclear powered submarine, INS Arihant, into the waters. Incidentally, those in Pakistan who have been ranting for years over the use of Islamic warrior names for our missiles seem absurdly mute in commenting on India&#8217;s aggressive usage of Hindu mythology warrior names not only for its missiles but now also for its nuclear-powered submarine. Of course, the reality is that the nuclear reactor of this submarine will not go critical till 2012, so at the moment Arihant is more of a symbolic reflection of where India is headed in terms of its nuclear arsenal. Nevertheless, the development has signalled the nuclearisation of the Indian Ocean by a littoral state &#8211; since nuclear weapons have been present in this Ocean through the military presence of the external nuclear powers, especially the US.

That is one major reason why the US, France and UK always opposed the UN General Assembly&#8217;s efforts to make the Indian Ocean a weapon-free &#8220;zone of peace&#8221; &#8211; as reflected in the first UN GA Resolution of 16 December 1971(2832:XXVI). Ironically, along with the Soviet Union, India was a major force behind this Non-Aligned Movement-supported UN resolution. But then this has been the hallmark of Indian security policy: seeking time through multilateral diplomatic moves while it builds its military capability. In contrast to the Indian position on the Indian Ocean as a Zone of Peace resolution, the US, France and the UK always voted against this idea and in 1989 they chose to withdraw from the 44 member UN committee on this issue that had been set up in 1972. The US in fact demanded that the committee be eliminated so as to reduce UN spending and we know how this whole issue simply died for lack of visible progress. Now that India has also moved towards nuclear militarisation of the Indian Ocean, it will be difficult to see any revival of the zone of peace proposal for this region in the future. With the launching of the Arihant, India has moved still further away from being a proponent of nuclear disarmament to being a projector of nuclear force. Strategic rationality makes it incumbent on Pakistan to seek to restore the nuclear balance for the future.

However, this should not be a major issue for us even in financial terms, as long as the lure of commissions does not distort or destroy our strategic interests. *We already have conventional submarines including the Agosta-type which are not only capable of carrying nuclear warheads, but can be upgraded to being fitted with air-independent propulsion technology (AIP) specifically designed to allow conventional subs to remain submerged for longer periods. That is the main advantage of nuclear-powered submarines, along with the speed element &#8211; they do not need to surface like conventional subs that need to surface after short periods of being submerged and therefore become vulnerable. AIP technology is specifically designed for conventional subs and the Germans have been in the forefront of this technological development, although the Agostas can also be upgraded.*

It is unfortunate that Pakistan&#8217;s purchase of subs has been delayed apparently over the commissions lure, because now the international community will make it harder for this country to acquire these subs. Have we learnt no lessons from what happened to Pakistan in 1974 after the Indian nuclear test? India tested and Pakistan was penalised! The Canadians withdrew from KANUPP despite IAEA safeguards and a legal agreement. There is nothing to suggest that things will be different this time round &#8211; given how Hillary Clinton practically blessed Indian militarisation with a new defence pact. Besides Pakistan&#8217;s pathetic record of asserting legal agreements with its allies makes us easy victims of foreign pressure and diktat &#8211; remember the replacement of F-16s with wheat and soya beans? Not only did we lose our money, but before the US finally retracted on the deal, we were made to pay parking charges for these F-16s also! But we always forget US abuse and present ourselves for more of the same whenever the occasion arises!

Coming back to the Indian nuclear powered submarine &#8211; it should be pointed out that we do not yet know how it will perform once its reactor goes critical. Will it actually have the speed and capability &#8211; given that it has been built with Soviet/Russian technology and the fate of many Soviet/Russian subs lies at the bottom of the seas &#8211; taking a heavy toll of human life and reflecting the limitations of Soviet weapon systems? A major disadvantage of nuclear-powered subs is that they are noisier because they have to keep the reactor powered on all the time so if conventional subs can acquire longer submergeable capability through AIP technology &#8211; although it will still not be the same as a nuclear-driven sub &#8211; the imbalance can be offset to some extent.

Sea-launched nuclear missiles are central to second strike capability which acts as a stabiliser in the context of nuclear strategy since it reduces the imperatives for first strike. In this context, although Pakistan has not officially made any declarations regarding the development of this capability, it is now fairly well-established that we are already on the way to ensuring this second strike capability. It is also now recognised that we have had more success with missile development than India &#8211; probably because we have kept our missile ranges and types limited and focused more on developing solid fuelled delivery systems (which, again, are more stable) and reducing circular error probabilities. India, on the other hand, chose to have a wide-ranging missile programme including seeking the development of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). While we have stabilised our cruise missile as well as moved towards the beginnings of sea-launched ballistic missiles, from all accounts, India has not been too successful in both these fields &#8211; especially with the Sagarika (which is to be its sea-launched missile) in surface tests. So if India is to gain any advantage from its nuclear-powered submarine, assuming it will perform as expected once its reactor goes critical, it will have to work more on its delivery systems.

For Pakistan while there is no need to go into panic mode, we will have to stop sacrificing good deals simply because of the greed over commissions. The fact that a French inquiry has hinted at commissions lying at the root of the death of the French engineers in Karachi should be a sobering moment for any leadership. But the brazenness with which our successive decision-makers have been proceeding, with scant regard for propriety and wastage of limited national resources, shows that no lessons have been learnt &#8211; nor is there any desire to learn from even recent history.

Worse still, our rulers are full of bombast but are unwilling to take proactive concrete actions. Take the case of Balochistan. Political leaders of all shades have been repeating ad nauseum the need for political healing and economic investment in that province but why have the first steps in that direction not been taken beyond publication of reports and statements? Why is the leadership so hesitant to declare a general amnesty for all Baloch political figures and the release of all political prisoners? When we can talk to militants (and we should if they are our own people prepared to accept the writ of the state) and be allied to the Americans who continue to kill our people through drone attacks, why are we so unwilling to begin the healing process with the Baloch people and their leaders? Why are we allowing our detractors to provide support for the dissidents instead of taking the punch out of their dissidence by granting them a one-time amnesty if they accept the writ of the state? How can we rise to external military challenges posed by countries like India and the US when we are unable to deal with our own people? Our weakness lies within ourselves reflecting a psychological confidence deficit which makes the rulers aggressive and non-accommodative with the nation and timorous before external players. The Indians and Americans are exploiting this well which is why the Indian&#8217;s are making grandiose statements about a submarine that has yet to show how it performs!


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## Hunter911

samiullahawan said:


> Pakistan is working on nuclear submarines since 1993......and soon u people will came to know about our nuke sub....besides if india remains the only nuke sub holder in this region then it will be soon a problem for Pakistan...believe it or not soon Pakistan will be nuke sub holder......*u can bet on this* if Pakistan does not announce about its nuke sub within 1 year and 8 months then i'll leave this forum for ever.....



if pn they need oneday,why not borrow one nuc sub from china,pk just take a application. no offence! india had one nuc sub form russia,so why not Pakistan to follow suit? a peaceful asia is good for everyone,besides the indian ocean is not india's,so ,pakistan can do what they thought right things.

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## PakSher

Agreed. It is time that the 1000 natical miles of Pakistan's martime boundary and the Arabian Sea be named Pak-Arab or Asian Oceon. We need to rename it as India has renamed it cities from Bombay to Mumbai and In Pakistan Layallpur was renamed to Faisalabad.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

glomex said:


> As of now and I mean 2 yrs INS Arihant will be busy with Sea trials around Bay of Bengal....and will be fully operational by yr 2011.....
> 
> So this is what Pakistan Should Do.....
> 
> 
> Short term:
> 
> 1. Lease Nuclear submarine from Countries Like france, China or any Neutral Country. And the process should be Initiated ASAP so that the Submarine is delivered within next two years.
> 
> 
> Long term:
> 
> 1. Start the process for procurement of 2 to 3 Nuclear submarines ....ASAP...
> 
> 
> Pakistan should not start development of Indigenous submarine...for two reasons....Pakistani coastline is not huge enough so that you can justify the cost of a huge project like that.... second...if development starts now...it might take more than a decade to bring that Submarine to Sea...
> 
> But for me the first reason stands valid....Return on investment....
> 
> Thats an honest suggestion....




How about we sink that carrier while its not armed ?


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## Dark Angel

yeah right its as easy as killing a mosquito


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Pakistan should try to opt LA class submarines on lease from US...! It will be the best possible ans to the Indian subs ...!


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## Dark Angel

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Pakistan should try to opt LA class submarines on lease from US...! It will be the best possible ans to the Indian subs ...!




With pakistan there is always a chance of chinese colabrating so given the fact that The Los Angeles class, sometimes called the LA class or the 688 class, is a class of nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSN) that forms the *backbone *of the United States submarine fleet. With *45 submarines on active-duty *
US will never lease it to pak


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## Chanakyaa

Realistic choices:
1. Get u214
2. Get better maritime patrol a/c.

still, arihant is difficult target as it need not be close to pak shores with 700 km sagarika and later 3500 km agni 3 slbm.

add to it that agostas and u boats will be on scanner by worlds best P8s.


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## Super Falcon

virginia class american submarine fits well for pn but no way we will get it


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> With pakistan there is always a chance of chinese colabrating so given the fact that The Los Angeles class, sometimes called the LA class or the 688 class, is a class of nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSN) that forms the backbone of the United States submarine fleet. With 45 submarines on active-duty
> US will never lease it to pak



the US is planning to replace its fleet of LA class subs with more latest subs , so its possible that US might lease one or two to Pakistan ..!


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## sab

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> the US is planning to replace its fleet of LA class subs with more latest subs , so its possible that US might lease one or two to Pakistan ..!


only one country can think of leasing (I said think of) a SSN to Pakistan- it is China. No neutral country is going to lease SSN- forget America.

BTW I believe inclusion of modern conventional subs which can prevent India from blocking Karachi is what Pakistan needs.


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## Super Falcon

but atleast 20 conventinal subs not 8


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## shekhar

the only way Pakistan can counter fast growing Indian navy or air force or army is to make stronger Pakistani economy no other way around and no short cut
today china is stronger because it took some steps back in 70s 
today India is second fastest growing nation because it took some steps in early 90
what i believe is that more than stronger military Pakistan today needs good policymakers so that 15 years down the line it can emerge as fast growing nation which can support the requirement for military
its all up to you accept it or not today as per this date pakistan cannt match india in any field not because india is bigger country japan has almost same population as of pakistan and very low resources with continuous earth-quack problem still japan is second biggest economy in world
forget the Indian nuclear submarine that's only one example the basic line is economy which India understood in 80s china in 60s and yet to be understood by Pakistan
to day India made its first nuclear sub few more under construction akula coming from Russia but the basic fact is India is doing all this with her own money no loan no easy installment payment
all the big countries and big defence companies are coming to India because of only one reason the can make money from India or India can afford these toys

thus coming to the point best way to counter Indian nuke sub is to make the Pakistan economy stronger which still is far from reality

Pakistan has to think why global companies (not only defence related) are eager to do business from India why companies like ford and Honda are transferring their manufacturing hub in India why not Pakistan ?

the day Pakistan finds the answer it will also get all answers to the question " how to counter India ?"

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

interesting read


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## ice_man

shekhar said:


> the only way Pakistan can counter fast growing Indian navy or air force or army is to make stronger Pakistani economy no other way around and no short cut
> today china is stronger because it took some steps back in 70s
> today India is second fastest growing nation because it took some steps in early 90
> what i believe is that more than stronger military Pakistan today needs good policymakers so that 15 years down the line it can emerge as fast growing nation which can support the requirement for military
> its all up to you accept it or not today as per this date pakistan cannt match india in any field not because india is bigger country japan has almost same population as of pakistan and very low resources with continuous earth-quack problem still japan is second biggest economy in world
> forget the Indian nuclear submarine that's only one example the basic line is economy which India understood in 80s china in 60s and yet to be understood by Pakistan
> to day India made its first nuclear sub few more under construction akula coming from Russia but the basic fact is India is doing all this with her own money no loan no easy installment payment
> all the big countries and big defence companies are coming to India because of only one reason the can make money from India or India can afford these toys
> 
> thus coming to the point best way to counter Indian nuke sub is to make the Pakistan economy stronger which still is far from reality
> 
> Pakistan has to think why global companies (not only defence related) are eager to do business from India why companies like ford and Honda are transferring their manufacturing hub in India why not Pakistan ?
> 
> the day Pakistan finds the answer it will also get all answers to the question " how to counter India ?"



only 6 posts & you are talking very well & sensible! welcome buddy we need people like you on this fourm who speak out the truth...& are not bias....

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## illuminatidinesh

I thought This guy would be getting hate messages for his comment on that economy. But surprise........... Today i see some good and gentle people from other side too. I agree with his assesment. 
Thanks to those who welcomed him


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## leoberetta

Growler said:


> in my opinion... If PN ever considers a nuclear powered sub they should acquire only 1 or 2..
> btw.. U-boats are more then enough to take down indian nuclear sub.. however the type-214 does not match nuclear capabilities such as almost unlimited range and the SLBM and more launch tubes.. mean while.. the more stealthier U-214 has a better chance to hunt that down..



diesel electric subs of any kind are mainly meant for costal patrol or at the max for patroling a nations territorial waters and is not primarily suited for hunting down nuclear submaries in blue water operations...U-214 is a good submarine and can only engage Indian Nuclear subs if they get close to shores to launch an attack on pakistani assets but Ins arihant with its long range range missiles need not have to do that.....so build a nuclear attack sub to counter INS arihant or INS chakra(akula-2)...


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## leoberetta

shekhar said:


> the only way Pakistan can counter fast growing Indian navy or air force or army is to make stronger Pakistani economy no other way around and no short cut
> today china is stronger because it took some steps back in 70s
> today India is second fastest growing nation because it took some steps in early 90
> what i believe is that more than stronger military Pakistan today needs good policymakers so that 15 years down the line it can emerge as fast growing nation which can support the requirement for military
> its all up to you accept it or not today as per this date pakistan cannt match india in any field not because india is bigger country japan has almost same population as of pakistan and very low resources with continuous earth-quack problem still japan is second biggest economy in world
> forget the Indian nuclear submarine that's only one example the basic line is economy which India understood in 80s china in 60s and yet to be understood by Pakistan
> to day India made its first nuclear sub few more under construction akula coming from Russia but the basic fact is India is doing all this with her own money no loan no easy installment payment
> all the big countries and big defence companies are coming to India because of only one reason the can make money from India or India can afford these toys
> 
> thus coming to the point best way to counter Indian nuke sub is to make the Pakistan economy stronger which still is far from reality
> 
> Pakistan has to think why global companies (not only defence related) are eager to do business from India why companies like ford and Honda are transferring their manufacturing hub in India why not Pakistan ?
> 
> the day Pakistan finds the answer it will also get all answers to the question " how to counter India ?"



Very sensible talk buddy...pakistan should concentrate on its economy more so that in the future it can support its military...India is no threat to pakistan...and India's massive induction of sophisticated arms are meant to counter china...India dosent need nuclear subs, agni's, ultra modern jets and 1000's of Mbt to go against pakistan but its meant to counter any chinese military moves..pakistan should think about it and divert its resources to where its needed..a major portion of pakistan's revenues are diverted to pay back foreign debts and so it will only destroy its economy if it try to engage in an arms race with India..americans are now supporting pakistan with money because it need pak but when the Us motives are achieved they will simply ignore Pakistanis as they had done before...remember the US pressler amendment which denioed pakistan any Us military aid..but pakistan has still not learnt the lessons..


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## Arik

jalip said:


> will U boats will be sufficent to defend against indian threat are we have to go for neculear sub in near future



U boats will not be enough.Each nuclear sub carrying nuclear tipped weapons have escort submarines which r generally conventinal attack submarines.


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## Penguin

Arik said:


> U boats will not be enough. Each nuclear sub carrying nuclear tipped weapons have escort submarines which r generally conventinal attack submarines.



Such an escort of convential attack subs would really negate the advantages that the nuclear sub has (e.g. continues high speed, no need to surface or schnorkel).


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## Penguin

leoberetta said:


> diesel electric subs of any kind are mainly meant for costal patrol or at the max for patroling a nations territorial waters and is not primarily suited for hunting down nuclear submaries in blue water operations...U-214 is a good submarine and can only engage Indian Nuclear subs if they get close to shores to launch an attack on pakistani assets but Ins arihant with its long range range missiles need not have to do that.....so build a nuclear attack sub to counter INS arihant or INS chakra(akula-2)...



There is nothing that prevents large diesel electric attack subs (2500-3500 tons) like Walruss and Collins classes from doing ocean patrols. However, for that work, nuclear power has advantages, mainly due to possibilities for fast transit at continuous high underwater speed. 

U212 (1800+ tons submerged) was develop in part with the mediterranean in mind, and surely the U214 will do fine there as well. That's not pure ocean work, but also not pure coastal work. Thesedays, true coastal subs are often really small (often less than 1000 tons submerged)

The famous WW2 German Type VII U-boat displaced 745-1181 tons submerged (respectively A version and F version) and they worked of the US, African and European coasts as well as in the Med and Atlantic.


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## ramu

Super Falcon said:


> but atleast 20 conventinal subs not 8



Pakistan should not try and match India in numbers. 20 subs will cost a lot of money and it is better used in ensuring a way by which an attempt an naval blockade can be averted.

Not sure 20 subs will do that job.

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## flameboard

A better stealthier and safer as well as cheaper alternative would be hydrogen and oxygen powered sub. Heat detection can be easily avoided with this.


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## Myth_buster_1

We need a fishing boat to catch the nuclear sub

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## Lefa

flameboard said:


> A better stealthier and safer as well as cheaper alternative would be hydrogen and oxygen powered sub. Heat detection can be easily avoided with this.



Quoted, right now, thats the most cost/effective solution.
PEM systems are damn efficent but there are also other good AIP systems out there, less sofisticated.

Why you guys are so attracted from these nuke subs? 
You dont need nuclear power in order to suit your needs, nations that are supposed to operate anytime worldwide with patrols that last months or in particular scenarios such as under ice operations needs it. 
The key in ASW warfare is to be stealth (nukes subs are everything but silent), I would choose a submarine with a low magnetic, acustic and termic signature.
Such a machine would give several advantages, not only about attack but also about infomation recon (and thats not few).

What do you guys think about the "new" joint venture between Rubin (Russia) and Fincantieri (Italy) in the export submarines field?
Rumors says that the new product, S-1000 sub (a small, cheap attack submarine) gained experience from both 212 and Amur classes, and looks like India showed interest in this project.

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## Super Falcon

i still think U 214 will suit pakistan but dont know for last 5 years we did not choose any submarine which we have dont it in last 4 years time


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## somebozo

Diesel electric submarines are quieter and cheaper to operate than nuclear given the Pakistan smaller sea coast. 

Nuclear submarines


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## Lefa

I'm reading now, in the magazine "Navires & Histoire", n.61, LELA PRESSE, ago/sep 2010, that Pakistan signed a contract with the chinese government for the supply of 4 submarines "Yuan" class (2000t) of which one or two to be built in Karachi and three or four to be built in chinese shipyards.
As for future, the contract would also option other three submarines.

Is this information confirmed?


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## Arsalan

pakistan dont really need a nuclear sub.
with our aims and objectives clear at sea, there is no real need to go for these big money deals.

a perfect choice for PN would be conventional attack subs that are stealthier. the U214 was the obvious choice, now with the deal off table, china turkey pakistna cooperation can provide a good solution. ability to fire nuclear capable babur missiles will also give a second strike capability.

we can spend these funds on much more important projects..

regards!

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## IND151

*strength of Indian navy*Commerce raiding: Encyclopedia - Commerce raiding
Indian navy is strongest in south Asia. Russia


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## khurasaan1

to make a better and bigger nuclear sub to counter any threat frm india


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## Arsalan

khurasaan1 said:


> to make a better and bigger nuclear sub to counter any threat frm india



bigger is not always better... 

lets just stick to better,,


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## pak blood

i dont think Pakistan need any nuclear sub , we just need any good anti ship missiles . like the Russians or Iranians have , like sunburn or Exocet i hope i wrote it right


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## satishkumarcsc

pak blood said:


> i dont think Pakistan need any nuclear sub , we just need any good anti ship missiles . like the Russians or Iranians have , like sunburn or Exocet i hope i wrote it right




Uhhh...You already have the exocet and the Sunburn is out of production. And why go for Sunburn when you have the C-802...Sunburn's Chinese clone?


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## farhan_9909

1 ballistic missile equipted N sub is what we need..

if war happened between US/Pakistan so then we can damage them unlike what they did to the iraq.

N sub with SLBM having MIRV capability

so that we can hit many cities in one missile..


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## Jigs

At this point it doesn't matter what Pakistan goes for as long as it is something modern. Those Agosta 70s are now 29-30 years old and while Pakistan can operate them past 2015 it doesn't become very safe to do so. Submarine hulls start to become compromised after 35-40 years of use. The normal lifespan is generally rated at around 30 years. You would need a refit to keep them in service.

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## Safriz

drones of the sea? why not look into robotic submarines...wont need life support systems,and will be able to work on their own....same as we have drones in the skies.


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## MastanKhan

safriz said:


> drones of the sea? why not look into robotic submarines...wont need life support systems,and will be able to work on their own....same as we have drones in the skies.



Sir,

It would be nice to do some research on submarines, submarine warfare and what kind of robotic submarines are available---and how you are going to operate them.

Please----people---for goodness sake---pick up a book----pick up a " book of fiction " regarding submarine warfare and at least get an idea as to what is involved in submarine operation and submarine warfare---how the sea lanes are tracked and how the subs go from one point to the other---how they hunt and track each other---.

There is no such thing as a robotic submarine to fight an under sea battle.


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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It would be nice to do some research on submarines, submarine warfare and what kind of robotic submarines are available---and how you are going to operate them.
> 
> Please----people---for goodness sake---pick up a book----pick up a " book of fiction " regarding submarine warfare and at least get an idea as to what is involved in submarine operation and submarine warfare---how the sea lanes are tracked and how the subs go from one point to the other---how they hunt and track each other---.
> 
> There is no such thing as a robotic submarine to fight an under sea battle.



I support that. Really good suggestion. Research based on fiction is best source of great knowledge. We can really improve our military capabilities by watching Star Wars and Star Trek.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

To be Honest in the VASTNESS of seas , a submarine just vanishes 
and agostas could operate under water for weeks and weeks so its quite a sufficient platform 

Yet for last 10 years we have sat on our own chairs and watched as years past while the lingering questions remains when we will get the new submarines 

If we order today new ones will come to us in 3-4 years.

So why not build ones that we had the alleged transfer of technology. 

If we had 8 Agosta submarines , I don't think we would have a pressure as we have now ... 2-3 subs don't do much to any defence 

Yes it will give you an option for few days untill its found but thats about it 

You need 8-9 subs in your inventory to do anything


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## MZUBAIR

PN must procure atleast 3 subs from China....


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## Safriz

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It would be nice to do some research on submarines, submarine warfare and what kind of robotic submarines are available---and how you are going to operate them.
> 
> Please----people---for goodness sake---pick up a book----pick up a " book of fiction " regarding submarine warfare and at least get an idea as to what is involved in submarine operation and submarine warfare---how the sea lanes are tracked and how the subs go from one point to the other---how they hunt and track each other---.
> 
> There is no such thing as a robotic submarine to fight an under sea battle.



Well said..there is no such thing as a robotic submarine...at the moment..But that doesn't mean there cant be...
unmanned subs haven't been looked into... Probably due to communication barriers,as radio waves are absorbed by sea water..but if properly researched,a very low frequency remote control signal can be devised..lower the frequency,greater the range of radio signal underwater?

Pakistan is an underdeveloped country and on most things has to start from zero..Our "Start" is usually buying other people's scrapped junk..would be much better if we could make something new of our own..


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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> I support that. Really good suggestion. Research based on fiction is best source of great knowledge. We can really improve our military capabilities by watching Star Wars and Star Trek.



Hi,

I told you one time not to answer when you are mad at me---it clouds your thinking---.

Star trek and Star wars are "SCIENCE FICTION"---I didnot say science fiction. If you had read some of them, you would understand the difference between the two.

Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October is a good start---to get some understanding for a lay person---.


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## ARSENAL6

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I told you one time not to answer when you are mad at me---it clouds your thinking---.
> 
> Star trek and Star star wars are "SCIENCE FICTION"---I didnot say science fiction. If you had read some of them, you would understand the difference between the two.
> 
> Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October is a good start---to get some understanding for a lay person---.



erm.........NO STAR WARS IS not SCience fiction

if so then explain how ?


----------



## MastanKhan

safriz said:


> Well said..there is no such thing as a robotic submarine...at the moment..But that doesn't mean there cant be...
> unmanned subs haven't been looked into... Probably due to communication barriers,as radio waves are absorbed by sea water..but if properly researched,a very low frequency remote control signal can be devised..lower the frequency,greater the range of radio signal underwater?
> 
> Pakistan is an underdeveloped country and on most things has to start from zero..Our "Start" is usually buying other people's scrapped junk..would be much better if we could make something new of our own..



Hi,

You are talkiong about VLF and ELF type of signals----well---that is why I stated that you need to read up on some of the material so that you have a better idea of what you want to discuss---.

If you had any idea as to how the submarines operate and work---you would not have written what you did---.

A submarine is a stealth weapon---once it leaves the dock---it is living in a world of its own---on every mission the world is seemingly coming to an end---.

Submarines do get orders from land----but they are slow in coming like the ELF---but any message coming in can also be snagged by the enemy.

You seemingly want to take my post as an insult and didnot take the oppurtunity to learn---well that does not help---.

Yes---in the real world---for the next century onwards----there will be no submarines going fishing on their without a crew---.

A submarine is not a sterilized environment where everything is working like a swiss watch---on a sub, things break down---steam pipes leak---engine bearings burn----generators have problems---electronic systems can malfunction---there are a thousand and one things tha can go wrong and those need to be fixed under the sea---with no help from outside.

There have to be tactics developed on the run against the enemy minefields, submarine hunters, submarine sensors.

You need to understand that submarine warfare is a new game---just barley over a 100 years old---we have barely scrateched the surface only---. We have been fighting land battles for thousands of years and have seen a great bit of evolution----plus on land and in air---we can see our mistakes and errors and correct them before the damage is done or even after the damage is done. Under sea---is a totally different world---where the margins of error----actually there is no margin of error.

And it is a totally different world---where the rules of operations and survival have totally different standards---.

Please don't take it as personal---if you want to talk about it---then learn about it---thankyou.


To take it further---submarines operate on their own under water---once they go under----there is no knopwing what direction they would take---or what they will face---every deployment of a submarine is sort of a last journey----they never know what kind of world they wioll return to.

as the subs rely on stealth---meaning any signal communication will give out their locatio---specially the one controlling them----the enemy then has to destroy the base from where the signal is origination---or just simply jam the signal----and now you have lost your billions of dollars worth of submarine---to a simple jamming equipment.


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## MastanKhan

ARSENAL6 said:


> erm.........NO STAR WARS IS not SCience fiction
> 
> if so then explain how ?




Hi,

Please write a clear sentence as to what you want to ask me. Thanks. I could not decipher what you wrote. Thanks.


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## Kompromat

Probably we will lease a Nuclear sub from China.


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## Penguin

Black Blood said:


> Probably we will lease a Nuclear sub from China.



China has just 8 nuclear subs, some of which old, all of which it needs for itself as strategic assets.

By comparison, Russia has some 44 nuclear submarines, of which 24 are operational.

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## ARSENAL6

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please write a clear sentence as to what you want to ask me. Thanks. I could not decipher what you wrote. Thanks.



I was asking why do you think Star Wars comes under science fiction ?


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## logic

We should spend this money to develop IT parks to give our youth a fighting chance instead.
Navy boys want some shiny toys.


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## senselesstalk

Sorry, I know this is not the right thread to put this. But frankly speaking neither India would attack pakistan /china or the opposite. Even if some war erupts it would be minimal and would be contained in a day or two with international countries mounting pressure. 

The next war weapon india and china would be using against each other would be their Economy, yes both will use their economic might for strategic purposes. As China is far more ahead economically it will have more say in the world, that doesnt mean India will lag behind, its getting up there. 

Meanwhile china will keep helping pakistan as stop gap arrangement for India. But in the end of the race.. its pakistan who is going to lose, not china / India. As both are progressing economically, where as pakistan is just focussing on military with india as its arch foe. But pakistan has to understand that todays friend might be tomorrows foe, what if some other bigger nations confront it, will its military be able to reply to those threats.

Instead it has stand alone, never rely on anyone including china / US, be self reliant economically and militarily. For strong military we need strong economy and good work force which require good academics, so its all a cycle .. where it starts with economy.

I am not here to pin point pakistan or something. A strong pakistan is good for South Asia, We asian countries are lagging behind many european countries, thats why they are making us play according to their tunes controlling funds in IMF and worldbank making as bankrupt nations, even this happend to India before 1990 economic liberalisation.

Hope I havent hurt anyone ...

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## MastanKhan

senseless,

No, you are not wrong---that is what it seems like---.


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## Hassan Guy

To build one of its own ofc.


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## vizier

There will be a gap in the navy until 2022 when you get those subs. Since you need a regional defensive approach against Indian navy and not a global strike naval force the best during that time is to go for indigeneous small hunter submarines. Some countries in the region for example Iran already has that capability. Small-midget subs also are less detectable if you acquire the technology to build them. Otherwise until 2022 you will be waiting with a gap in the navy.

Yes India has several A3 orion anti sub aircraft that needs to fly over your subs to detect them near your waters but you have plenty of bvr aircraft at your disposal to take out Indian 2-3 anti submarine aircraft flying over your waters. Also even if they are detected they are mobile and it is not that easy to hit them at least more difficult than attacking surface vessels that shine on the radar.

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## MadDog

vizier said:


> There will be a gap in the navy until 2022 when you get those subs. Since you need a regional defensive approach against Indian navy and not a global strike naval force the best during that time is to go for indigeneous small hunter submarines. Some countries in the region for example Iran already has that capability. Small-midget subs also are less detectable if you acquire the technology to build them. Otherwise until 2022 you will be waiting with a gap in the navy.
> 
> Yes India has several A3 orion anti sub aircraft that needs to fly over your subs to detect them near your waters but you have plenty of bvr aircraft at your disposal to take out Indian 2-3 anti submarine aircraft flying over your waters. Also even if they are detected they are mobile and it is not that easy to hit them at least more difficult than attacking surface vessels that shine on the radar.



Just a bit of correction brother. Pakistan Navy has P3C Orion and Indian Navy has P8I Poseidon anti submarine aircraft. 
Hopefully Pakistan will be becoming part of Turkey's Istanbul class frigate program along with buying Turkish corvettes !!!

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## Hassan Guy

vizier said:


> There will be a gap in the navy until 2022 when you get those subs. Since you need a regional defensive approach against Indian navy and not a global strike naval force the best during that time is to go for indigeneous small hunter submarines. Some countries in the region for example Iran already has that capability. Small-midget subs also are less detectable if you acquire the technology to build them. Otherwise until 2022 you will be waiting with a gap in the navy.
> 
> Yes India has several A3 orion anti sub aircraft that needs to fly over your subs to detect them near your waters but you have plenty of bvr aircraft at your disposal to take out Indian 2-3 anti submarine aircraft flying over your waters. Also even if they are detected they are mobile and it is not that easy to hit them at least more difficult than attacking surface vessels that shine on the radar.


Pakistan Navy already has Midget Submarines.


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