# Kashmir | The Geopolitical Implications & its impact on regional peace and security



## Kompromat

*BRIEF | EU Parliament
*​*Kashmir: the Geopolitical Implications & its impact on regional peace and security Kashmir EU week at the European Parliament.*

Brussels, Belgium
November 2013
By | Laura Schuurmans






​
*CONTENTS:*

*Introduction *
*Is Kashmir a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan? *
*The Afghanistan quagmire *
*China’s growing influence *
*Geopolitical implications *
*Conclusion *
*References *

*Introduction*​

The Kashmir conflict has remained unresolved for more than six decades. The dispute can be analyzed from various angles, of which the following three are the most important. Firstly, the Kashmir conflict is usually portrayed by international media, mainstream society and academia as a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan. 

Secondly, to a lesser extent, the dispute is analyzed from a humanitarian angle, wherein an outright repression, violation of human rights and strong discontentment amongst the vast majority of Kashmiris indicating a humanitarian crisis within Kashmir, which over the past few decades has reached an unprecedented level. Thirdly, the Kashmir dispute can be analyzed from a geopolitical angle and the impact it has on regional peace and security.

In academic journals and mainstream media, much has been published about the bilateral dispute over Kashmir between India and Pakistan. Much less has been published on the human rights abuses of the Kashmiris, particularly in the Kashmir Valley. Reports such as “Alleged Perpetrators: Stories of impunity from Jammu and Kashmir” are important readings that the international community should not leave disregarded. Regretfully, the international community has continued to neglect the Kashmiris by failing to challenge the human rights abuses by the Indian security forces in Kashmir. 

The longer the international community continues to overlook these human rights violations, the worse the impact is going to be, not only on the suffering of the people of Kashmir but have repercussions on Kashmir per se and also jeopardize the whole of nuclearized South Asia. The scholarly analysis of the geopolitical implications of the Kashmir dispute is another angle that the international community often neglects. There is no denying, for instance, that peace in Afghanistan does go through the valleys of Kashmir.

Moreover, although the US remains the global superpower, China’s reformations and opening up to the West under Deng Xiaoping in 1978, has seen it become the world’s second largest economy and it is expected to overtake the United States within a decade. China has gradually been taking a more predominant role in global politics and in addition, maintains a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Although the Kashmir dispute is usually considered a conflict between India and Pakistan, China also controls a part of the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir, known as Aksai Chin. This region is under China’s administration, but is claimed by India as an integral part of the disputed Ladakh region.

While China has not actively participated in the Kashmir dispute and maintains a position that the dispute should be settled bilaterally between India and Pakistan, China does essentially lay claim to part of the Kashmir region. It is needless to point out that these three countries all possess nuclear weapons. This brief will provide an overview of geopolitical implications of the Kashmir dispute, briefly outline human rights abuses in Indian-held Kashmir, and analyze the potential threat the conflict has on both regional and global peace and security.



*Is Kashmir a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan?*
​
To analyze the dispute between India and Pakistan objectively, it is essential to briefly examine the historical context. During the time of partition of the British Raj in 1947, the treaty of partition was based on the ‘Two Nation Theory’, which stated that all areas with a Muslim majority population would become part of Pakistan, and those with a Hindu majority would join India. The Princely States that were part of the British Raj had the choice to accede to either India or Pakistan, based on their religious and geographical factors. 

The Muslim majority Princely States located deep inside today’s India, however, did not join Pakistan even if the Muslim majority population favored it accession. *The Muslim majority Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu Maharaja (Hari Singh) and were contiguous to both India and Pakistan, thus free to join either country. At the time of partition, the vast majority of the population favored to join Pakistan, as all rivers and road links of the valley were with Pakistan.*

*Afraid of a popular uprising, Maharaja Hari Singh fled Kashmir and signed a controversial treaty of accession with India, which led to the Indian invasion of Kashmir on 27 October 1947 and the outbreak of war. Interestingly, this instrument of accession has still to see the daylight, as it has never been shown to the world. In January 1948 the then Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru took the issue of Kashmir to the United Nations Security Council and both India and Pakistan pledged to allow the people of Kashmir a right of self-determination.
*
Unfortunately, the 1947 war led to a deterioration in the relationship between India and Pakistan and mistrust continued to grow, with two further wars in 1965 and 1971, the latter leading to the secession of East-Pakistan, today’s Bangladesh. To add to this regional tension, both countries declared overt possession of nuclear weapons in 1998. *More than six decades later, the Kashmir dispute has gone beyond a mere struggle of self-determination.* The people of the South Asian continent that used to cohabit in a relatively peaceful fashion for centuries, now remain deeply divided over Kashmir, with much ongoing antagonism at both political and societal levels. 

The book “Kashmir, the Case for Freedom” in which the Indian Booker Prize Winner Arundathi Roy also contributed a book chapter, illustrates the hatred of the different religions within much of Indian society. *The chapter by Hilal Bhatt, narrates the brutal killings of Kashmiri students on a train ride to Delhi (Kashmir, the Case for Freedom, 2011).* In addition, after both India and Pakistan declared their nuclear arsenal in 1998, peace and security of South Asia has been further jeopardized.

Over the past six decades, neither India nor Pakistan have relinquished their claims over the Kashmir region, and they do not appear to have plans to make any concessions over the disputed region anytime in the near future. *While, on one hand, Pakistan has made its efforts to bring the sufferings of Kashmiri people to the attention of the international community, there has been no doubt that India prefers to preserve the status quo. The longer the international community waits to bring the Kashmir dispute on its political agenda, the more the ticking time-bomb will count down towards a potential catastrophic event with far-reaching implications.* Moving towards a resolution of the dispute is essential to bringing back peace to the Kashmiris and the wider South Asian region.



*The Afghanistan quagmire*​


*Durable peace in Afghanistan can never be achieved without a resolution to the Kashmir dispute. World powers and the United Nations will have to seek an amicable solution to the Kashmir conflict through legal and moral mechanisms instead of political rhetoric and commercial interests. Several solutions to the problems facing Afghanistan pass through the valleys of Kashmir where the Indian armed forces indulge in serious human rights violations. *

*The world must take notice of Kashmir if it genuinely hopes to see stability and durable peace in Afghanistan, the South Asian subcontinent and consequently the whole world (Schuurmans, 2010). *From 1979-1989 the Afghan-Soviet War brought Afghanistan to the global spotlight. This proxy war initiated by the United States laid the foundations for today’s Al Qaeda’s terrorist network and the so called jihad or holy war.

In 2001, following the tragic September 11 terrorist attack that changed the world, the US and its allies once again ventured into Afghanistan to topple the Taliban regime that brutally oppressed its people, as well as to dismantle the Al Qaeda terrorist network. More than a decade later, the US and its coalition forces have not succeeded in their mission to return stability to war-torn Afghanistan, and much of the country has mostly been left in ruins while the US and its allies have been preparing for exit in 2014.

Sun Tzu, a famous Chinese war strategist quoted in what is probably the oldest study of military strategy in history ‘the Arts of War’ that ‘in practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact: to shatter and destroy is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them’ (Sun Tzu).

In other words, the repercussions of the withdrawal of the foreign troops in 2014, is yet to be seen. Moreover, today’s Afghanistan has been left with significant obstacles. Rampant corruption, opium growth and a fragmented society are just a few examples. An undeniable fact that has often been overlooked is the ongoing struggle for strategic influence in Afghanistan by some regional countries that has halted the success to bringing peace back to war torn Afghanistan. Let’s briefly analyze the India-Pakistan-Kashmir nexus and the struggle of both countries for exercising influence in Afghanistan.

Historically, India and Afghanistan have enjoyed close relations. India was a Cold War ally of the Soviet Union and never objected to Soviet’s presence in Afghanistan during the war from 1979-1989. After the tragic 9/11 attacks India became a staunch supporter of the attempts to topple the Taliban regime, dismantle the Al Qaeda network, and eradicate militancy in Afghanistan, which after the end of the Afghan- Soviet War was used as a hub, sanctuary and training ground for Kashmiri militants.

*Secondly, within the Afghan society, the human rights abuses against innocent Muslims in Indian-held Kashmir have not been left unnoticed. Presently, 700,000 Indian security forces are keeping a population of 7 million Muslims in the Kashmir Valley under tight control. An estimated 50,000 – 80,000 people have been killed in the Kashmir conflict over the past two decades and at least 6,000 – 8,000 innocent civilians remain missing in Kashmir. 

Ongoing human rights abuses in Indian-held Kashmir will continue to radicalize an angry youth in Afghanistan, and will undoubtedly stir militancy in the wider region. It is important to highlight that the Mumbai attacks of 2008 were allegedly carried out by the Kashmir based, and Afghan trained, Lashkar- e-Taiba militant group. *Lastly, Pakistan and India have been archenemies since their creation in 1947.
*
Pakistan claims it has strong evidence that India has been using Afghanistan as a ‘strategic backyard’ to encircle Pakistan from both its eastern and western borders and to use Afghanistan as a hub aimed to destabilize Pakistan by fueling the problems of the Baluchistan separatist movement and to destabilize its tribal areas.*

*The question could be posed as to why India needed to open 12 consulates throughout Afghanistan, which is, in fact, more than they have in any other country in the world. Pakistan has claimed that these consulates are used as a cover by RAW, India’s intelligence agency, to plan and execute covert operations to destabilize Pakistan.* The longer the fact that both India and Pakistan are struggling for influence in Afghanistan is ignored, the worse the overall impact will be on regional peace and security, particularly following US withdrawal in 2014.



*China’s growing influence*​


An important fact that has been overlooked in western circles is that another nuclear power has its claims over Kashmir. In 1962, following a short but brutal border war with India, China took full control of Aksai Chin. This disputed region has been claimed by India and is located in the far western part of China adjacent to Xinjiang province, home to the Uygur Muslim minority that has been prone to social unrest. Following this Sino-Indo border war, China developed an all weather friendship with Pakistan. China supported Pakistan in the wars against India in 1965 and 1971 and staunchly supported Pakistan in its stance over Kashmir. 

However, after Deng Xiaoping’s policies of opening up and political reform in 1978, during which period China was in the process to normalize relations with India – and other countries – after almost three decades of revolutionary diplomacy, China has increasingly been balancing its relations with both India and Pakistan, and has gradually been adapting its stance over Kashmir. Following the end of the Cold War, China chose to adopt a neutral stance on the dispute and still maintains today that the dispute should be resolved peacefully and bilaterally through negotiations (Garver, 2001).

Although China solved many of its land border disputes with neighboring countries, the boundary issues with India remain unresolved (Shirk, 2007). During the latest visit of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to China in October 2013, the two most populous nations and neighbors, signed the Border Defence Cooperation Agreement to maintaining peace and tranquility on the border and to make preliminary progress toward the settlement of their boundary issues (Li, Zhang,2013). This border agreement, however, only preserves today’s status quo.

Resolving the boundary issues between the two Asian giants has remained a difficult task to achieve. This does not mean, however, that one cannot move forward towards negotiations and seeking the possibilities to improve the overall living conditions of the people in disputed regions that are a breeding ground for a disillusioned youth that often finds no hope for a better, alternative future.

China has also been dealing with terrorist related issues in its far western Xinjiang province bordering with the disputed Kashmir region. As recent as October 2013 the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM) launched a suicide attack in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square that killed two people and injured another 40. Ma Pinyan, a senior anti-terrorism researcher and deputy director of the ethnic and religious study center at the Xinjiang Academy of Social Sciences in Urumqi, has stated that border areas with China in neighboring countries have become hotbeds for its activities, aims to provide continuous training for people in Xinjiang and masterminding attacks (Cui, 2013).

The international media, however, has criticized China for this terrorist attack and in article published on the CNN website “Tiananmen crash: Terrorism or cry of desperation”, the author Sean R. Roberts felt compelled to ask the question whether the alleged attack was a well-prepared terrorist act or a hastily assembled cry of desperation from a people on the extreme margins of the Chinese state’s monstrous development machine (Roberts, 2013).

There undoubtedly are problems within China’s borders especially among the minority groups that are fundamentally different than the majority Han Chinese, but those, that are really desperate in this world, are the people of Kashmir. In its strategy to contain China, the international community does not hesitate to criticize China’s human rights record, but the *world has continued to look away and close its eyes to the human rights violations that are taking place in Indian-held Kashmir. The stories of abuses, rape and torture practices by Indian security forces will keep awake each and every individual at night.*



*Geopolitical Implications*​


The geopolitical implications of the Kashmir dispute are grave. Although the conflict is often considered a dispute between India and Pakistan, China also has its claims over the Kashmir region indirectly affecting overall peace and security of its western Xinjiang province home to
the Uygur Muslim minority. This region which borders with both Afghanistan, Pakistan and the disputed region of Kashmir has been prone to social unrest, tensions and terrorism related activities. Peace in Afghanistan will never be achieved if no concrete steps towards a resolution of the Kashmir conflict are made. Furthermore, beyond the scope of this brief, the case is
the same for Iran.

Generally, the boundaries of South Asia are looked at those of Pakistan and India only. A settlement of the disputed Kashmiri boundaries, however, will enhance South Asian peace and security. The Line of Control has divided Kashmir between Pakistan and India, and the Line of Actual Control separates Kashmir from China. These de facto borders have often been the subject of border incursions and skirmishes between military forces. 

As recent as this year, cross border firing between Indian and Pakistani soldiers increased tensions between the two nuclear giants. The conflict over the Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir has either been ignored, forgotten, or its potential dangers to regional peace and security been mostly underestimated. Whilst China has stated no intentions to become embroiled in the dispute, it effectively is part of it per se. A resolution for Kashmir will benefit not only the South Asian states and Afghanistan, but also boost peace and security in the most western parts of China and beyond. 

*For more than six decades, the people of Kashmir have been waiting for their promised plebiscite.* Their hopes have been continuously dashed, the desperate youth growing increasingly angry and the people of Kashmir forced to exist in a state of darkness in their own communities and homes. *Equally important, three nuclear giants claim Kashmir. The Kashmir dispute can no longer be considered a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan only, but one with real geopolitical implications of which the repercussions will have long term effect on regional peace and security.*


*Conclusion

*​*If human rights, equality and democracy genuinely matter to the West, it is now time to address effectively the issue of Kashmir.* The only way to move towards a resolution on Kashmir is to touch the root cause of the conflict and to prioritize above all the *overall dire living conditions of the Kashmiri people who have been deprived of their right of self-determination.*

During the occupation of East Timor when the Indonesian armed forces were condemned
for their human rights violations in this disputed territory, European leaders, human rights activists and the international media repeatedly rang alarm bells and demanded a move towards a resolution of the conflict.

During those turbulent years, the whole of Europe stood united to defend the rights of the East Timorese, and no single country averted its eyes to the human rights abuses, oppression, and suffering of the people. *The case of East Timor, on one hand, never posed a serious threat to regional peace and security. Kashmir, on the other hand, has and will
remain a threat with geopolitical implications for the wider South Asian region. Europe must stand up for the rights of the Kashmiris which will ultimately deliver effective results for both regional peace and security and that of the entire world.*


*References*

Bhatt, Hilal & other authors.
Kashmir: The Case for Freedom.
Verso.

2011
Li, Xiaokung and Zhang, Yunbi.
China Daily.
Border agreement to boost ties.

22 October 2013
Garver, W John.
Protracted Contest.
University of Washington Press.

2001
Robert, Sean R.
Tiananmen crash: Terrorism or cry of desperation.
CNN website.

31 October 2013
Schuurmans, Laura.
Solution to the Afghan problem through the valley of Kashmir.
Panorama for global security environment issues.

2010
Shirk, Susan L.
China, fragile super power.
Oxford University Press.

2007
Sun Tzu.
The Art Of War.
Signature Press.

2007

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Source | http://lauraschuurmans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Final.pdf

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## Kompromat

Please have a read and share this report with your friends. The struggle of the Kashmiri people must not be forgotten, we all owe the debt of freedom to our folk in the valley. 

@Armstrong , @Oscar , @Aamna14 , @Zarvan , @Neptune , @cabatli_53 , @T-123456 , @Yzd Khalifa @Al Bhatti , @al-Hasani @asad71 @Hyperion @Arabian Knight @BLACKEAGLE @Loki , @Serpentine , @Hussein .

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## Indischer

* "Interestingly, this instrument of accession has still to see the daylight, as it has never been shown to the world.*"

The instrument of accession is on the internet for all to see. This article lost it's credibility and I hence I didn't bother to read any further.

Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Nassr

The instrument of accession was conveniently lost after 1947 and then surprisingly re-emerged in 2005, after the death of the last Raja of Kashmir and was placed on Indian Home Ministry’s web site. Since 2005, it has been repeatedly stated by Indian government that it has lost its value as Kashmir has become part of Indian Union. There are many who say that this one is a mere forgery. The UN resolutions still declare Kashmir a disputed territory and it will remain so till a final settlement is arrived at.

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## nair

The recent articles, statements and replys shows only one thing..... What is gonna happen in kashmir next year..... Kashmir was kind of silent for some time......


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## Kompromat

Nassr said:


> The instrument of accession was conveniently lost after 1947 and then surprisingly re-emerged in 2005, after the death of the last Raja of Kashmir and was placed on Indian Home Ministry’s web site. Since 2005, it has been repeatedly stated by Indian government that it has lost its value as Kashmir has become part of Indian Union. There are many who say that this one is a mere forgery. The UN resolutions still declare Kashmir a disputed territory and it will remain so till a final settlement is arrived at.




Indian colonial rule on Kashmir is an internationally accepted fact, regardless of what they do, they can't win the moral ground. Sooner or later Kashmir is going to be free, thats how colonialism ends. Indians should learn from their own history.



nair said:


> The recent articles, statements and replys shows only one thing..... What is gonna happen in kashmir next year..... Kashmir was kind of silent for some time......




It was silent according to Indian govt's standards. From normal standards 100s of people have been shot dead, fake encounters are taking place, there is zero internet/media freedom and the black colonial laws are still in operation.

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## nair

Aeronaut said:


> It was silent according to Indian govt's standards. From normal standards 100s of people have been shot dead, fake encounters are taking place, there is zero internet/media freedom and the black colonial laws are still in operation.



Its the way we look at it.... We both look at a glass and you say "It is half filled"and i say "Its half empty"....


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## T-123456

As an outsider i'm asking,why not hold a referendum and let the people decide what they want?


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## Kompromat

nair said:


> Its the way we look at it.... We both look at a glass and you say "It is half filled"and i say "Its half empty"....



The issue of Kashmir is that, ironically it matters what Pakistanis and Indians say, while no one cares about what the Kashmiri people have to say.



T-123456 said:


> As an outsider i'm asking,why not hold a referendum and let the people decide what they want?



India won't allow a referendum because Kashmir is an 'integral part of India'.


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## T-123456

Aeronaut said:


> The issue of Kashmir is that it matters what Pakistanis and Indians say, while no one cares about what the Kashmiri people have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> India won't allow a referendum because Kashmir is an 'integral part of India'.


So,this means they are afraid of the outcome/results of a referendum ?


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## Kompromat

T-123456 said:


> So,this means they are afraid of the outcome/results of a referendum ?




What else would be the reason? - Kashmiri people would either join Pakistan or would opt for a free country. Either of which is fine for Pakistan but not for India.

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## T-123456

A referendum is the only way to peace,i dont see another way.

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## Kompromat

T-123456 said:


> A referendum is the only way to peace,i dont see another way.




India is occupying J&K and they hope that by doing it long enough, people of Kashmir will give up their demand for freedom. Learning from India's own colonial history, it couldn't be further from the truth.
Its India and India alone that prevents a referendum, therefore its India that doesn't want peace between India and Pakistan as well as in the greater S.Asia.

This is what Chief Minister of Kashmir ( Indian puppet ) had to say recently about the 'so called merger'.

Kashmir 'NEVER Merged' with India | CM Omar Abdullah

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## Aamna14

T-123456 said:


> So,this means they are afraid of the outcome/results of a referendum ?



Exactly though most don't have the guts to admit it.

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## Chinese-Dragon

I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?

Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.

Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> Please have a read and share this report with your friends. The struggle of the Kashmiri people must not be forgotten, we all owe the debt of freedom to our folk in the valley.
> 
> @Armstrong , @Oscar , @Aamna14 , @Zarvan , @Neptune , @cabatli_53 , @T-123456 , @Yzd Khalifa @Al Bhatti , @al-Hasani @asad71 @Hyperion @Arabian Knight @BLACKEAGLE @Loki , @Serpentine , @Hussein .


We need to do few things first raise Kashmir issue with all possible means even if we have to use small scale fights with India and also need to raise awareness in Muslim world both among leaders and Muslims of other countries about Indian Brutalities in Kashmir that will make sure 1.5 Billion people turn against India and finally build our Military Muscle and improve our economy until our economy gets improved we should try to take help of Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and Kuwait and Qatar to build our Military finally if India doesn't solve it peacefully than war is always an option because through Kashmir India is trying to stop our water and turn our land into barren so better we fight and finish the enemy rather than dying from thirst and hunger ourselves

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## Kompromat

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> 
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> 
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.




They are hoping that, as their economic engagement with the world powers grows, they will not raise the Kashmir issue and slowly people will give up on their demand for self determination by accepting colonialism. It hasn't worked historically and it will not work in the future. The final winners will be the Kashmiri people.

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## T-123456

Aeronaut said:


> India is occupying J&K and they hope that by doing it long enough, people of Kashmir will give up their demand for freedom. Learning from India's own colonial history, it couldn't be further from the truth.
> Its India and India alone that prevents a referendum, therefore its India that doesn't want peace between India and Pakistan as well as in the greater S.Asia.
> 
> This is what Chief Minister of Kashmir ( Indian puppet ) had to say recently about the 'so called merger'.
> 
> Kashmir 'NEVER Merged' with India | CM Omar Abdullah


You know what the Turkish Ambassador said,i second that.



Zarvan said:


> We need to do few things first raise Kashmir issue with all possible means even if we have to use small scale fights with India and also need to raise awareness in Muslim world both among leaders and Muslims of other countries about Indian Brutalities in Kashmir that will make sure 1.5 Billion people turn against India and finally build our Military Muscle and improve our economy until our economy gets improved we should try to take help of Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and Kuwait and Qatar to build our Military finally if India doesn't solve it peacefully than war is always an option because through Kashmir India is trying to stop our water and turn our land into barren so better we fight and finish the enemy rather than dying from thirst and hunger ourselves


War is no option and forget the ''Muslim Muscle''.
Do you really think there is ONE muslim country that would support you openly on the Kashmir issue?

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## acid rain

T-123456 said:


> A referendum is the only way to peace,i dont see another way.





Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> 
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> 
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.



We never promised a referendum on Indian Kashmir - read through the UN resolution on Kashmir - there are a few conditions there that need to be met with before even thinking of a plebiscite....another factor here is Pakistan signing the Shimla agreement that turns the Kashmir issue into a bilateral issue. If just by making a hue and cry about it annd trying to arm twist India into talking by sending terrorists across win convince us into discussing it than thats not going to happen for a long time.


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## Aamna14

Sukapha said:


> The article is a piece of garbage. Kashmir is a part of India and will remain so. Deal with it.



lolz are you insane? Kashmir is a disputed territory so come back from you're dreamland and start acknowledging facts.


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## KRAIT

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.


Kindly read the terms under which referendum should be held before making comments, buddy.

Pakistanis always whine about Kashmir.

BTW Arunachal Pradesh is also not a disputed territory, but just because you are not democracy, does it gives you right to claim it yours ?

Also P0K is disputed territory acc. to UN too, but you built road there. Aren't you breaking international laws ? Can I call china hypocrite now.

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## Sukapha

Aamna14 said:


> lolz are you insane? Kashmir is a disputed territory so come back from you're dreamland and start acknowledging facts.



Disputed? In your mind!!! No country apart from one thinks so! We do not consider it disputed. It is an integral part of India, will remain so. Deal with it before you get an ulcer! Remember, it does not matter what foreigners say, what matters is what we, Indians do.


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## Chinese-Dragon

KRAIT said:


> Kindly read the terms under which referendum should be held before making comments, buddy.
> 
> Pakistanis always whine about Kashmir.
> 
> BTW Arunachal Pradesh is also not a disputed territory, but just because you are not democracy, does it gives you right to claim it yours ?
> 
> Also P0K is disputed territory acc. to UN too, but you built road there. Aren't you breaking international laws ? Can I call china hypocrite now.



What don't you understand?

Democracy - Referendums, Right to self-determination

One-party Autocracy - Nothing of the kind is required


So you're waiting for an *Autocratic non-democracy* like China to give a referendum to Tibet (  ), before you fulfill your obligations to give a referendum to Kashmir?

That's a cheap way of saying you'll never fulfill the promise you made.



KRAIT said:


> BTW Arunachal Pradesh is also not a disputed territory, but just because you are not democracy, does it gives you right to claim it yours ?



This makes no sense. Firstly, Zangnan IS disputed territory.

Secondly, what does that have to do with Democracy?

A white Englishman called MacMahon drew a line across Asian territory that he had no right over, and that is the basis for India's claim on AP.

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## Aamna14

Sukapha said:


> Disputed? In your mind!!! No country apart from one thinks so! We do not consider it disputed. It is an integral part of India, will remain so. Deal with it before you get an ulcer! Remember, it does not matter what foreigners say, what matters is what we, Indians do.



Then India is the only country in the world who doesn't consider it disputed. The whole world refers to it as disputed. I am sure you mean the entire world doesn't matter to you that way. Indians aren't any special to be treated above the law in case you haven't noticed till now. It is a disputed territory and would remain so as long as the issue isn't resolved no matter how much you whine or utter insults.

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## acid rain

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What don't you understand?
> 
> Democracy - Referendums, Right to self-determination
> 
> One-party Autocracy - Nothing of the kind is required
> 
> 
> So you're waiting for a *non-democracy* like China to give a referendum to Tibet (  ), before you fulfill your obligations to give a referendum to Kashmir?
> 
> That's a cheap way of saying you'll never fulfill the promise you made.
> 
> 
> 
> This makes no sense. Firstly, Zangnan IS disputed territory.
> 
> Secondly, what does that have to do with Democracy?
> 
> A white Englishman called MacMahon drew a line across Asian territory that he had no right over, and that is the basis for India's claim on AP.



LOL, so many fails there that its hilarious.


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## Chinese-Dragon

acid rain said:


> LOL, so many fails there that its hilarious.



Yet you were not able to counter even a single one of my points in your post.


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## acid rain

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yet you were not able to counter even a single one of my points in your post.



LOL, ok here goes, lets see if you can make something out of it.

Democracy - Kashmir goes to elections every year and elects its leaders. So we are following the democratic process to the tee.
Democracy doesnt mean that people have a say in an international issue directly - as in, they elect leaders and a government to do that. 

India does not have any obligations to give a referendum till the set conditions are fulfilled - as I said read up on the UN resolution first, India never promised a referendum only on "Indian Kashmir".

To fulfill the so called "promise" the set conditions need to be fulfilled which I doubt that they can ever do.

Whats Zangnan? 

AP is a state in India so I dont see how is it even a concern?.

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## [Bregs]

The Kashmir issue can be resolved only bilaterally not through any referendum


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## bronxbull

kashmir issue cant be resolved.


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## India_rocks

Kashmir is an integral part of India, we dont even consider it as a disputed territory now.


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## Slayer786

I think you all are forgetting that India is one of the future major economic powers. The West is catering to it as the West needs India. India knows it and thats why it has been able to keep Kashmir isssue out of the limelight. The West doesn't care as it is only muslims who are dying there. Not like east Timor or South Sudan where the population was Christians and the West helped them both to gain independence.
So nothing is going to happen. India will get away with it and we will only be wasting time waiting for the World to wake up.

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## acid rain

Slayer786 said:


> I think you all are forgetting that India is one of the future major economic powers. The West is catering to it as the West needs India. India knows it and thats why it has been able to keep Kashmir isssue out of the limelight. The West doesn't care as it is only muslims who are dying there. Not like east Timor or South Sudan where the population was Christians and the West helped them both to gain independence.
> So nothing is going to happen. India will get away with it and we will only be wasting time waiting for the World to wake up.



Nothing happened even when we were at the weakest point in the past and Pakistan was backed by the entire west via CEATO and CENTO plus the Chinese, Arabs, Iranians, Brits and practically entire Muslim world including Iran. So yeah, you are right you are wasting your time and ours as well.

Kashmir was a paradise with nil crimes - forget killings, for the decades that preceded 1989 when Pakistan started sending the mujadaheens and till date the terrorists that come across the borders and the radical shyteheads who brainwash the Kashmiri youths to become jihadists are the reasons for the bloodshed in the valley. 

23000 plus terrorists (mostly Pakistani origin terrorists) and a few thousand Indian troops have lost their lives (includes the deaths that occured in the Kargil and Siachen conflict) and a few thousand deaths of Kashmiri locals have died (mostly at the hands of the terrorists). - the deaths of Indian troops is an great obligation on us that needs to be repaid back multifold with interest.


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## MohitV

Slayer786 said:


> I think you all are forgetting that India is one of the future major economic powers. The West is catering to it as the West needs India. India knows it and thats why it has been able to keep Kashmir isssue out of the limelight. The West doesn't care as it is only muslims who are dying there. Not like east Timor or South Sudan where the population was Christians and the West helped them both to gain independence.
> So nothing is going to happen. India will get away with it and we will only be wasting time waiting for the World to wake up.



u r one smart pakistani....


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## Kompromat

[Bregs] said:


> The Kashmir issue can be resolved only bilaterally not through any referendum



In other words, what Kashmiris want doesn't matter and what Pakistan and India want does?

I am against this logic, i believe that the people of that part of the world have a God given right to decide for themselves, nor India or Pakistan have the right to call shots on their behalf.


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## Jade

Aeronaut said:


> The issue of Kashmir is that, ironically it matters what Pakistanis and Indians say, while no one cares about what the Kashmiri people have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> India won't allow a referendum because Kashmir is an 'integral part of India'.



Never will India conduct a referendum.



Aeronaut said:


> They are hoping that, as their economic engagement with the world powers grows, they will not raise the Kashmir issue and slowly people will give up on their demand for self determination by accepting colonialism. It hasn't worked historically and it will not work in the future. The final winners will be the Kashmiri people.



Why do you think India is not toying with the idea of changing the demographics of Kashmir. If you see J&K census since 1947, there has been a increase in Hindu population in Kashmir.

If Chinese can do it Tibet and Pakistan can do it in occupied Kashmir, why do you think India hasn't done it yet.


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## chhota bheem

Aeronaut said:


> In other words, what Kashmiris want doesn't matter and what Pakistan and India want does?
> 
> I am against this logic, i believe that the people of that part of the world have a God given right to decide for themselves, nor India or Pakistan have the right to call shots on their behalf.



Yup even i think that ,It was very sad that part of Kashmiris Kashmir was handed over to China by Pakistan, and yet claim Kashmir is close to Pakistans heart.


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## ares

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> 
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> 
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.



Why not?

Let Pakistani forces and all Pakistanis leave Kashmiri territory as was the UN pre-requisite for the referendum ..let Chinese return the part of Kashmir which Pakistanis gifted them for appeasement and then we can have a referendum.

So lets forget about Pakistanis for a minute since you are Chinese, who so deeply cares about Kashmiri rights perhaps you can guide me, when will Chinese give back Kashmiri territory(recognized as a part of Kashmir as per the same UNSC resolutions). So that Kashmiris are but a one step closer to 'self determination'.

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## Chinese-Dragon

ares said:


> Why not?
> 
> Let Pakistani forces and all Pakistanis leave Kashmiri territory as was the UN pre-requisite for the referendum ..let Chinese return the part of Kashmir which Pakistanis gifted them for appeasement and then we can have a referendum.
> 
> So lets forget about Pakistanis for a minute since you are Chinese, who so deeply cares about Kashmiri rights perhaps you can guide me, when will Chinese give back Kashmiri territory(recognized as a part of Kashmir as per the same UNSC resolutions). So that Kashmiris are but a one step closer to 'self determination'.



I don't care about the people of Kashmir, they are not Chinese citizens so they are not my concern.

Self-determination and referendums are core to Democratic principles. We are not a Democracy, so again, it is irrelevant.

And Aksai Chin is a part of Chinese sovereign territory.

Just because a white Englishman called MacArthur drew a line across Asian territory does not mean anything at all. White Englishmen have no authority to carve lines across Asian territories, their land is on the other side of the planet.


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## ares

> Chinese-Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care about the people of Kashmir, they are not Chinese citizens so they are not my concern.
> 
> Self-determination and referendums are core to Democratic principles. We are not a Democracy, so again, it is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You hit the nail on the head when you said you are not a democracy...perhaps that's is why it is so difficult for you to grasp, that democracy is a method of selecting one's govt and not one's nation.
> 
> A referendum in Kashmir has nothing to do democracy but is one of the suggested methods of dispute resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Aksai Chin is a part of Chinese sovereign territory.
> 
> Just because a white Englishman called MacArthur drew a line across Asian territory does not mean anything at all. White Englishmen have no authority to carve lines across Asian territories, their land is on the other side of the planet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the problem for you is the yellow gentlemen who were in charge at that time accepted those lines and signed a document saying so.
> The same white gentleman(English, Americans,Russians, French) were the ones who decided on referendum as method of deciding the fate of kaleidoscope kashmris and as you say white people sitting thousands of miles away have no business in deciding.
> . What happens in South Asia. ..we agree.
Click to expand...


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## Chinese-Dragon

ares said:


> Well the problem for you is the yellow gentlemen who were in charge at that time accepted those lines and signed a document saying so



Except they didn't.

The Chinese government never accepted those lines drawn by the white Englishmen.

Neither did Indians, they signed on your behalf.


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## ares

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Except they didn't.
> 
> The Chinese government never accepted those lines drawn by the white Englishmen.
> 
> Neither did Indians, they signed on your behalf.



And who is Chinese govt back then... You had no writ over the areas when the lines were being demarcated. 
Those who did, accepted those lines. 

Those lines might have demarcated on our behalf but we do accept them. . Just like we and Pakistanis accept the Radclife line demarcating the India Pakistan border. Or how Pakistanis govt accepts Durand line demarcating Pak-afghan border

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## Slayer786

acid rain said:


> Nothing happened even when we were at the weakest point in the past and Pakistan was backed by the entire west via CEATO and CENTO plus the Chinese, Arabs, Iranians, Brits and practically entire Muslim world including Iran. So yeah, you are right you are wasting your time and ours as well.
> 
> Kashmir was a paradise with nil crimes - forget killings, for the decades that preceded 1989 when Pakistan started sending the mujadaheens and till date the terrorists that come across the borders and the radical shyteheads who brainwash the Kashmiri youths to become jihadists are the reasons for the bloodshed in the valley.
> 
> 23000 plus terrorists (mostly Pakistani origin terrorists) and a few thousand Indian troops have lost their lives (includes the deaths that occured in the Kargil and Siachen conflict) and a few thousand deaths of Kashmiri locals have died (mostly at the hands of the terrorists). - the deaths of Indian troops is an great obligation on us that needs to be repaid back multifold with interest.




I think you got the wrong idea. We are wasting time talking peace with India. The only way to get back at India is through proxy war again in Kashmir. Anyway, very soon we will have aconfrontation with India over water rights. So why waste time. 
Yeh to is par yeh us par.





MohitV said:


> u r one smart pakistani....




Well u r one not so smart indian. I meant no point having peace with india without Kashmir issue. Forget the west coming to aid Kashmiri with their rights. No one is going to help them. We would just have to start sending fighters back and wake up the indians.


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## MohitV

Slayer786 said:


> Well u r one not so smart indian. I meant no point having peace with india without Kashmir issue. Forget the west coming to aid Kashmiri with their rights. No one is going to help them. We would just have to start sending fighters back and wake up the indians.



i nvr said m smart.....but u r definitely one smart pakistani 

rarest of the rare


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## Slayer786

MohitV said:


> i nvr said m smart.....but u r definitely one smart pakistani
> 
> rarest of the rare




well right back at you.........

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## SrNair

Aeronaut said:


> The issue of Kashmir is that, ironically it matters what Pakistanis and Indians say, while no one cares about what the Kashmiri people have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> India won't allow a referendum because Kashmir is an 'integral part of India'.




All of you guys talk about Kashmiri Muslims,but none of you consider lakhs of Kashmiri Pandits,tortured
raped and displaced from their land of kashmir valley before and after for short time of 1948 kashmir war.They tortured ,raped and displaced by pakistani invading forces and tribes like patanis.Now all they live in Jammu and Delhi area.This western lady dont considered that.Presently kashmir valley is majority of muslims because valleys owners kashmiri pandits displaced from there.



Aamna14 said:


> Then India is the only country in the world who doesn't consider it disputed. The whole world refers to it as disputed. I am sure you mean the entire world doesn't matter to you that way. Indians aren't any special to be treated above the law in case you haven't noticed till now. It is a disputed territory and would remain so as long as the issue isn't resolved no matter how much you whine or utter insults.



Jammu and Kashmiris is integral part of India.And it will be remain as integral part of India.take it or leave it .we just dont care.


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## acid rain

Slayer786 said:


> I think you got the wrong idea. We are wasting time talking peace with India. The only way to get back at India is through proxy war again in Kashmir. Anyway, very soon we will have aconfrontation with India over water rights. So why waste time.
> Yeh to is par yeh us par.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well u r one not so smart indian. I meant no point having peace with india without Kashmir issue. Forget the west coming to aid Kashmiri with their rights. No one is going to help them. We would just have to start sending fighters back and wake up the indians.



This is where you are wrong, the proxies are always there and will be there in Pakistan including their recruitment, training camps and the brainwashing radical fundamental network of madrassahs, so called social charity organizations and the terrorist organizations - what happened for the last decade was you ended up smack in the middle of a war where the whole NATO and their agencies came roaming around inside Pakistan and also the money ran out so Pakistan dropped the terrorism support for the Kashmiri terrorists by 50%. 
But this past decade has thrown Pakistan into the spotlight as a state that encourages and runs terrorist networks and its Pakistan thats sending its proxies into its neighboring countries. 
And, it wont be easy to do it in Kashmir again because Pakistan has lost its financial backing for running of its various proxy armies and a consequence of that is all those terrorist attacks on the master and thats whats happening in Pakistan, Pakistan is under incredibly tremendous pressure to dismantle its terrorist infrastructure by the international community and this pressure will only increase exponentially. The reason for that being a lot of countries in Asia, Europe and America are getting threatened by the Jihaadi camps, organizations and schools that are operating in Pakistan......

Under this limelight Pakistan is in no position to start sending terrorists again to the same level that they did in the 90's...we will maintain the international pressure to the fullest as well.

This so called water war is BS and you dont have a sound reason to start a war with India - and if you did then forget about any international assistance or support from anyone because we have followed the lopsided IWT to the tee.


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## Capt.Popeye

Aeronaut said:


> Please have a read and share this report with your friends. The struggle of the Kashmiri people must not be forgotten, we all owe the debt of freedom to our folk in the valley.
> 
> @Armstrong , @Oscar , @Aamna14 , @Zarvan , @Neptune , @cabatli_53 , @T-123456 , @Yzd Khalifa @Al Bhatti , @al-Hasani @asad71 @Hyperion @Arabian Knight @BLACKEAGLE @Loki , @Serpentine , @Hussein .


 

_NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW. 
NOTHING DID FOR 6 DECADES PLUS; EXCEPT FOR SOME EXTREMISTS TO KEEP SHOUTING AND NOW THE RANTING ABOVE.
OF COURSE IT ALSO HELPS TO GIVE SOME BEARDOS WHO WERE OTHERWISE UNEMPLOYED; SOMETHING TO DO.
BUT LITTLE ELSE, THOUGH OF COURSE IT ALSO GIVES A CHANCE FOR SOME KHAKIS TO FEEL IMPORTANT TOO._

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## Capt.Popeye

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> 
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> 
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.


 
You're just talking through your _Chinese Mandarin's Hat_ there. 
*Read the UN Resolutions terms that need to be complied with BEFORE a Referendum can be initiated.* Unfortunately, Pakistan either over-looked reading that bit or was unable to comprehend the English! Or pretends to do both.......
Now that is a subject that @toxic_pus will happily educate you on!!! 
And @Joe Shearer; will fill in the gaps; if you cannot understand.

Otherwise; this topic is just great for _idle Charlies_ to resurrect periodically when Life seems just meaningless.
_Deja Vu ?_

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## Zabaniyah

Interesting article.

I never knew that Afghanistan has the potential to impact Kashmir. Why should it?

I don't think that anything pretty would come out of Afghanistan after the Yanks pull out. It is not like one can conjure up a "good" and "stable" country in one day given the history of Afghanistan and what is most certainly to come. Corruption, draconian-style leadership, massive unemployment levels, high-crime, and other untold miseries. That leaves the rulers to rule and the potential for Afghans to become unhappy. Balancing that, and the threat of the Taliban is very tricky. Even the Americans won't be able to. Had it been not by their failure by leaving behind an incomplete war, none of that had to happen.

I think it'd be a waste of time on the part of Kashmiris to give a moment's thought about Afghanistan. And the Afghans better think of how to better themselves (a general suggestion). 

As to why there hadn't been due attention given to human rights abuses on the Indian side of Kashmir, I think it is the environment which both sides created. By arming themselves with nuclear weapons, it does make people shut-up more. Hence, the issue is never brought up. It's a sensitive region, and someplace where nuclear war can take place at any time. So, they don't bring it up.

The best way forward is for a peaceful referendum on both sides of the border. Violence and nukes don't solve a problem. It is the Kashmiris alone who should be given the power to determine their destiny. Now if both Pakistanis and Indians are going along with childish jingoism over Kashmir, then frankly, they are the problem.

Let them set up a peaceful referendum and let the Kashmiris decide for themselves. Can both sides ensure that peace and security for all during that referendum process? And most of all, tolerance? If no, then their politicians are all cowards.


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## sree45

T-123456 said:


> So,this means they are afraid of the outcome/results of a referendum ?





Chinese-Dragon said:


> I thought India already promised to give Kashmir a referendum, half a century ago?
> 
> Now that is a strange bit of hypocrisy. Indians are always going on about Tibet, even though Tibet is not recognized as a disputed region by anyone in the world. And obviously, China is not a democracy, so we don't do referendums.
> 
> Whereas India is supposed to be a democracy, and not only that, but they also promised a referendum to Kashmir.



Frankly speaking. After Independence, India was never desperate about Kashmir. The Maharaja wanted Kashmir to become an Independent country but Pakistan wanted it to join them as most of the pakistani rivers originate in Kashmir. So, PA along with a few extremists attacked kashmir and was only a few KM's away from its capital city. So, the Maharaja signed an instrument of accesion with India. Immediately, IA responded and pushed the PA back. 

In 1948, When India & Pak approached UN to resolve the Kashmir issue. UN recognized the Instrument of accession as a valid legal document asked Pakistan to withdraw it's troops from Kashmir and instructed India to hold a plebiscite in ENTIRE Kashmir. But Pakistan refused to remove it's troops and after 1971 war, Pakistan signed an agreement saying that Kashmir issue will only be resolved bilaterally with out any International pressure. 

Kashmir was a peaceful state till 1980's. Realizing that PA cannot take over Kahsmir in a conventional war. Pakistan started sending insurgents into India(Their own heads of states have confessed to it)

People in J&K elect their own govt. and they have absolute control over all matters except Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications.


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## illusion8

Loki said:


> The best way forward is for a peaceful referendum on both sides of the border. Violence and nukes don't solve a problem. It is the Kashmiris alone who should be given the power to determine their destiny. Now if both Pakistanis and Indians are going along with childish jingoism over Kashmir, then frankly, they are the problem.
> 
> Let them set up a peaceful referendum and let the Kashmiris decide for themselves. Can both sides ensure that peace and security for all during that referendum process? And most of all, tolerance? If no, then their politicians are all cowards.



The missing thing here is peace - after all the cross border infiltration's, wars and terrorist attacks and hundreds of thousands of deaths that were hoisted on India and after all the sacrifices that the Indian troops and the Indian people have given there is no way that what Pakistan wants for free is going to happen.

If you plead it on humanitarian or emotional grounds then what does India get in return to forget all those sacrifices of life? What is on offer that would make us give away the rightfully owned land?

If one argues that the Kashmiri's want freedom or want to join Pakistan then they are free to do that similar to how millions of Indian Muslims did when they thought that they couldn't live with Hindu's and that is by migrating to the country that was created specifically for the Muslims of India. They too left their lands back and went across and so did the Hindu's who migrated from Pakistan to India.

If you want it settled as per UN resolution or the Shimla agreement then the terms need to be met with first.

The only reason why Nawaz Sharif has started stressing on dialogue on Kashmir today is because the valley has seen snow and the terrorists cannot come across - this topi drama goes on every year and has been going on for some years - during summer time terrorists are sent across the LOC and during winter they talk of dialogue and peaceful resolution.

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## Jzaib

sreekumar said:


> All of you guys talk about Kashmiri Muslims,but none of you consider lakhs of Kashmiri Pandits,tortured
> raped and displaced from their land of kashmir valley before and after for short time of *1948* kashmir war.They *tortured ,raped *and displaced by pakistani invading forces and tribes like patanis.Now all they live in Jammu and Delhi area.This western lady dont considered that.Presently kashmir valley is majority of muslims because valleys owners kashmiri pandits displaced from there.


all happened after ur army invaded kashmir .. before u attacked muslims and pundits were living peaceful .. muslims have ruled u for 800 years ... we were quite secular ... after ur army invaded kashmir ... may be that is the reason hindu pundits were targeted ,..its a natural reaction


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## bronxbull

Most of the people masquerading here as kashmiris of pakistan are punjabis and not kashmiris,they cant squeak in the kashmiri language.

Lot of potoharis shout that we are kashmiri.

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## Jade

Loki said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> I never knew that Afghanistan has the potential to impact Kashmir. Why should it?
> 
> I don't think that anything pretty would come out of Afghanistan after the Yanks pull out. It is not like one can conjure up a "good" and "stable" country in one day given the history of Afghanistan and what is most certainly to come. Corruption, draconian-style leadership, massive unemployment levels, high-crime, and other untold miseries. That leaves the rulers to rule and the potential for Afghans to become unhappy. Balancing that, and the threat of the Taliban is very tricky. Even the Americans won't be able to. Had it been not by their failure by leaving behind an incomplete war, none of that had to happen.
> 
> I think it'd be a waste of time on the part of Kashmiris to give a moment's thought about Afghanistan. And the Afghans better think of how to better themselves (a general suggestion).
> 
> As to why there hadn't been due attention given to human rights abuses on the Indian side of Kashmir, I think it is the environment which both sides created. By arming themselves with nuclear weapons, it does make people shut-up more. Hence, the issue is never brought up. It's a sensitive region, and someplace where nuclear war can take place at any time. So, they don't bring it up.
> 
> The best way forward is for a peaceful referendum on both sides of the border. Violence and nukes don't solve a problem. It is the Kashmiris alone who should be given the power to determine their destiny. Now if both Pakistanis and Indians are going along with childish jingoism over Kashmir, then frankly, they are the problem.
> 
> Let them set up a peaceful referendum and let the Kashmiris decide for themselves. Can both sides ensure that peace and security for all during that referendum process? And most of all, tolerance? If no, then their politicians are all cowards.




It is easy to give advices? Why not give the same to China on Tibet or to Pakistan on Baluchistan? 

But, the reality is World don't functions that way. If every ethnic groups/religions wants separate countries than world will have 20000 countries. Kashmir should be solved, there is no doubts on that, but the solution should be within Indian constitution.


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## Joe Shearer

@Capt.Popeye, 

I don't feel like participating in this kind of boring thread any more, for a variety of reasons.

Now that Pakistanis of that inclination have more or less shot their bolts, and had their paper-thin arguments shot to pieces in argument, they have no way 'forward' other than citing pseudo-Kashmiris or supposed foreign authorities. These citations are typically cut and paste jobs out of the columns of Pakistani newspapers, and redolent with the wisdom of those hacks.
There is then a cacophony of support, from several sources.
The sub-teen bred in the US/Australia/Canada fight-to-the-last-Pakistani set;
The religious segment, who fall back on the exploits of the Islamic conquests, the glories of Ottoman Turkey, and finally the resistance of Iraqi terrorists and Afghan fundamentalists to foreign military presence to claim that this too will happen in Kashmir - some day;
The military man, or ex-military man, intent on maintaining esprit de corps, and denying that it was all a waste of time and lives, and bad for the service he came from;
The most egregious breed, the Pakistani revisionist, intent on creating a mythology for Pakistan to replace what he himself does not believe in anymore;

There is a counter chorus of Indians, whom I shall not categorise because it is an equally boring exercise, and one that is a punishment to undertake;
The Chinese, even the responsible Chinese minority, weigh in, with heavy ponderous posts very clearly written out of a sense of duty, rather than any genuine feeling for the subject;
Gridlock is achieved. The purpose is served.
And that is why I do not get into these threads. Sorry, @Capt.Popeye

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## toxic_pus

@Capt.Popeye 

I managed to read the paragraph titled '*Is Kashmir a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan?*' and I immediately lost any interest in this thread.

As @Joe Shearer said, the Chinese members do what they do, out of their sense of obligation to their BFFs. In matters related to Kashmir, they should be taken as seriously as Bozo the clown.

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## SrNair

Jzaib said:


> all happened after ur army invaded kashmir .. before u attacked muslims and pundits were living peaceful .. muslims have ruled u for 800 years ... we were quite secular ... after ur army invaded kashmir ... may be that is the reason hindu pundits were targeted ,..its a natural reaction



Our Army strike pakistanies in kashmir ,after pakistanis brutally kill poor kasmiri pandits and try to defeat kashmir king.Indian Army only entered in Kashmir after Instrument Of Accession.Whole the world know that except you.You are trying to twist historical fact.You Know ,We know and the Whole
World know Indian Army entered int Kashmir after pak army and tribal patanis attack poor kashmiris.
We also have proof.So dont talk like an idiot..
Muslims ruled us for 800 years,...which muslims? ,may some barbaric central asian muslim invade India, and ruled india for 800 years ,not pakistanies.You are the manifestation of that barbaric rule.
So for progress of India rejecting some barbaric manifestation is necessary.1947 partition is litmus test for that.Muslims love India remain in this country as an Indian.Manifestation of barbaric rules of muslim invaders combined and form country called pakistan. And your country is still in that place.
Pakistanis simply allow west countries for attack in your country.what is reason for that?because you are still governed by UK and US.pathetic


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## acid rain

Jzaib said:


> all happened after ur army invaded kashmir .. before u attacked muslims and pundits were living peaceful .. muslims have ruled u for 800 years ... we were quite secular ... after ur army invaded kashmir ... may be that is the reason hindu pundits were targeted ,..its a natural reaction



Revisionist history - full of lies and "maybe's" and boring as hell to try and rectify.....Its not the first example....there's hundreds of such fabrications and there will be hundreds more in the future.


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## OrionHunter

> Secondly, to a lesser extent, the dispute is analyzed from a humanitarian angle, wherein an outright repression, violation of human rights and strong discontentment amongst the vast majority of Kashmiris indicating a humanitarian crisis within Kashmir, which over the past few decades has reached an unprecedented level.


After reading this part I stopped going any further. *It's utter rubbish and nonsense written by some clowns sponsored by the Pakistani Establishment. I wonder how much they were paid for writing this sh!t? *

*Bottom line: Whatever any self styled analyst may write (Especially those sponsored by the Pakistan Establishment) Kashmir will remain an integral part of India, including those areas under the illegal occupation of Pakistan. Period!*


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## Zabaniyah

Jade said:


> It is easy to give advices? Why not give the same to China on Tibet or to Pakistan on Baluchistan?



I never said it'd be easy....

Tibet, and Baluchistan are different issues. Cooperation of both sides would be required on the table. 

Do folks honestly expect to drag Kashmir forever?


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## StormShadow

If pakistan had gone to the UN instead of fighting against India situation may have been tough for India. But since pak has fought not once nor twice but thrice and lost, it has lost the moral authority to talk about kashmir. India will use all means possible to tackle kashmir situation and no country or organization has the capability to separate kashmir from India since India has invested heavily in kashmir and the only possible solution is converting LoC into an international border.

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## Joe Shearer

Loki said:


> I never said it'd be easy....
> 
> Tibet, and Baluchistan are different issues. Cooperation of both sides would be required on the table.
> 
> Do folks honestly expect to drag Kashmir forever?



Isn't this precisely the question we are asking our Pakistani friends?

They have themselves testified that as their state trails further and further behind, their successive efforts at seeking a military solution have met with less and less success. How long do they intend to do this geopolitical Haka dance?

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## Zabaniyah

Joe Shearer said:


> Isn't this precisely the question we are asking our Pakistani friends?
> 
> They have themselves testified that as their state trails further and further behind, their successive efforts at seeking a military solution have met with less and less success. How long do they intend to do this geopolitical Haka dance?



Well, I don't think that cross-border militancy is going to go anywhere either. 

Though, turning the LOC into an international border doesn't sound bad either. Kashmir is like a caged princess.

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## IBRIS

Demilitarize P()K first Pakistan and curb the terror network. There is no other option left anymore you have used all the other ones without any outcome. Then Pak Army would be out of work giving way to prosperous Pakistan. Which is not in Armies interest so it will continue....Move along people


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## $elf

Loki said:


> Well, I don't think that cross-border militancy is going to go anywhere either.
> 
> Though, turning the LOC into an international border doesn't sound bad either. Kashmir is like a caged princess.


It is the crown of INDIA. 

We've fought wars on it, we won't give it. EVER

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## Signalian

A politically correct way to decide the fate of Kashmir either through UN or Muslim world. Otherwise a covert ops using only PA military personnel which is risky by itself because if caught will bring a bad name for Pakistan.

I would probably get ready for a negative rating because i personally think that supporting freedom fighters in kashmir is not good step by Pakistan (though i am in favour of Kashmir liberation from india) because:

1. From past it has been seen that freedom fighters or mujahideen in Afghanistan who later became Taliban and some formed other factions Al-Qaida have proved to be a problem for Pakistan internationally. TTP sprung up through foreign assistance against Pakistan. Then the good and bad Taliban scenario came up. This quagmire still continues after taking a toll of precious Pakistani lives both civilian and uniformed. 

2. Arming a civilian population is always risky. Any one fighting for their freedom have a motivation, usually patriotism. Such civilians when attain their goal and get their land freed may not sit in peace and harmony if the new occupier or the new Government is not functioning according to their will and wishes. They have learnt a way of attaining freedom through weapons and will again do the same.

3. Bringing a hard-lined weapon-trained fighter back to into community as a peaceful civilian with a decent job after freedom is not an easy task. The kashmiri freedom fighters number in thousands.

For kashmir freedom from India, there are a few scenarios and both are dangerous for Pakistan:

Kashmir becomes an Independent country/state:
Although rare chances of this, Pakistan already has a war torn country to its west, Afghanistan and the militancy issue there through Taliban/AQ/ISIS is ever continuing. Then a new country (Kashmir) will be formed and will have the same issue because it would have won its independence on same lines like Afghanistan in 1980's. A new "Taliban" type Government may be formed. Pakistan will have a problem again with Azad Kashmir-New independent kashmir people relations and links just like Pukhtoon-FATA link with Afghanistan. and secondly what if the new independent Kashmir now wants Azad-kashmir also included in it. Do bear in mind that the new independent Kashmir has thousands of trained fighters who are patriotic and fully weaponised.

Kashmir becomes Part of Pakistan:
Part of same issue outlined already. Integrating trained fighters into a civilian community is very difficult. FATA is a very good example of this. Lal masjid scenario is the same. These fighters have been trained to handle weapons and sought solutions with force and guns, not by law and order. If they dont find things going their way, they will resort to weapons again.

Secondly what if they dont want to put down weapons at all, most of the trained fighters in FATA have left for Afghanistan, but where will the Kashmiri fighters go now, and Kashmiri fighters may want to fight by going into:
1. Syria, joining ISIS.
2. Palestine, fighting Israel
3. Afghanistan, joining taliban and fighting USA/NATO.
or any other muslim oppressed area in the world.

Thirdly, China and Pakistan are very close. If these fighters now want Aksai-Chin part or J&K part also from China, will pakistan be able to convince these fighters to put down weapons against China through talks.


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## El Sidd

@Imran Khan 

How do you expect Kashmiris to arm themselves or sustain the struggle without outside support in post A35 and A370 region?

The amount of effort required to stop people flocking to the Kashmir cause is too much for any government.

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## Imran Khan

El Sidd said:


> @Imran Khan
> 
> How do you expect Kashmiris to arm themselves or sustain the struggle without outside support in post A35 and A370 region?
> 
> The amount of effort required to stop people flocking to the Kashmir cause is too much for any government.


if you read the plan of former Prime Minister of Norway Kjell Magne Bondevik and talks were going on between ind and pak i am optimist one of his 5 solutions suits pakistan and india both . all i want that damn talks start and reach on result from that plan . please search it find it and read . there is no need of arms what that plan .


$elf said:


> It is the crown of INDIA.
> 
> We've fought wars on it, we won't give it. EVER


you lost more then half already dear


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## El Sidd

Imran Khan said:


> if you read the plan of former Prime Minister of Norway Kjell Magne Bondevik and talks were going on between ind and pak i am optimist one of his 5 solutions suits pakistan and india both . all i want that damn talks start and reach on result from that plan . please search it find it and read . there is no need of arms what that plan .



Why do you think India and Pakistan would agree to a 3rd party plan made thousands of kms away? 

You would always need arms. There are grieving parties to Kashmir issue in all continents of the world. 

Even peace requires an army

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## Imran Khan

El Sidd said:


> Why do you think India and Pakistan would agree to a 3rd party plan made thousands of kms away?
> 
> You would always need arms. There are grieving parties to Kashmir issue in all continents of the world.
> 
> Even peace requires an army


because its best plan and suits both of them . i think you dont know Kjell Magne Bondevik he is world famous for solving territoral disputes . in his plan we all got something and we leave somthing . even modi meet him and let him meet kashmiris and give him free hand in occupied kashmir . that plan is really nice and it can bring peace in south asia forever . he visited both kashmirs india and pakistan for fixing issue . but then modi have elections and he created mess .


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## El Sidd

Imran Khan said:


> because its best plan and suits both of them . i think you dont know Kjell Magne Bondevik he is world famous for solving territoral disputes . in his plan we all got something and we leave somthing . even modi meet him and let him meet kashmiris and give him free hand in occupied kashmir . that plan is really nice and it can bring peace in south asia forever . he visited both kashmirs india and pakistan for fixing issue . but then modi have elections and he created mess .



does the plan include how to control the roughly 500 million people who now see the conflict beyond it's originality of being just territorial? 

you are blaming Modi for only harvesting the seed sown for decades.

the territorial dispute has morphed itself into a clash of civilisation

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## Imran Khan

El Sidd said:


> does the plan include how to control the roughly 500 million people who now see the conflict beyond it's originality of being just territorial?
> 
> you are blaming Modi for only harvesting the seed sown for decades.
> 
> the territorial dispute has morphed itself into a clash of civilisation


yes there is plan for kasmiri people too please read i think you will like it , its only possible thing we have .


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## El Sidd

Imran Khan said:


> yes there is plan for kasmiri people too please read i think you will like it , its only possible thing we have .


How elusive is it to get a hold of it? Just post it


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## Imran Khan

El Sidd said:


> How elusive is it to get a hold of it? Just post it


if i will find it i will post it .

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## ghazi52

RAJA SAKHI DALER KHAN





above (left)

Khan, was born in a village in Kotli, present day Pakistan-administered-Kashmir.

He was initially affiliated with the Indian national Congress, but later left and joined the Muslim League, during the early forties.

Towards independence, he visited the Prime Minsister & Maharaja of Kashmir, Ram Chandra Kak, and Hari Singh, asking them about their plans regarding the fate of Kashmir, i.e joining India or Pakistan.

He had a hint that the Maharaja was considering other options. He therefore felt that Kashmir’s Muslims were in a state of danger.

He along with his fellows published the Azad Kashmir Pamphlet on the 17th of July, 1947, which supported the state’s accession to Pakistan.

As partition neared, a rebellion broke out in Poonch, Jammu and Kashmir, which is where Khan’s hometown was also located. The Maharaja began to massacre Muslims in a bid to the crush the rebellion. Around 2,37,000 Muslims were killed in the state’s Jammu division.

Khan, along with another prominent commander, led Pakistani irregulars and troops into Kashmir, on the 22nd of October, 1947.

The troops went to the aid of their fellow Muslims and captured the Western parts of the state.







A map of the region, depicting the Pakistani advancement into Kashmir

The Maharaja fled to Jammu. And his state troops were badly defeated. This prevented the rest of the Muslims of Kashmir from falling into the hands of the Dogra troops. If it weren’t for Daler Khan, Muslims would’ve been totally wiped off from Jammu and Azad Jammu & Kashmir wouldn’t be free today.


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