# ATR-72 for Pakistan Navy



## Imran Khan

Pakistan facing numerous challenges: Sandila
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PPI 15 hrs ago | Comments (0)
Navy

KARACHI - Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila has said the country is faced with traditional and a host of non-traditional challenges, however, under the guidance of the governments policies, Pakistan Navy is currently engaged in executing its designated efforts to meet the challenges at national as well as regional level, and will continue to play its due role in future too.
The naval chief said this on Wednesday while addressing the annual efficiency competition parade and awards ceremony of Pakistan Navy for the year 2012 held at PN Dockyard. To pick up the gauntlet of participating in naval operations to combat terrorism and international piracy in collaboration with allied navies, Pakistan Navys regular contribution as well as commanding Task Forces 150 and 151 is ample acknowledgement of PNs high professional standards as well as endeavor to establish peace in the region, he added.
The efficiency parade, held every year, signifies the professional achievements of PN fleet units over the last 12 months. Fleet units, which excel in various categories, are awarded shields to acknowledge their outstanding performances, besides boosting healthy competition within the Command, an ISPR release said. The chief of the naval staff said that we bow our heads in expressing our gratitude to the Almighty for endowing upon us the opportunity to observe and celebrate the conclusion of another year of professional dedication; simultaneously, it is a day for expressing not only our firm resolve that during the new year too we shall not only take up the mantle of gradually enhancing our professional standards but also endeavor to apply ourselves dedicatedly towards the accomplishment of our professional goals with even greater commitment. While paying tribute to the brave officers, sailors and men who laid down their lives while defending against terror attacks, the naval chief said in the prevailing milieu, Pakistan Navy had undertaken a number of steps but to effectively counter the prevailing threat, preparation to meet challenges is a persistent effort, constant vigilance and preparedness can make national defence impregnable.
He added that apart from Pakistan fleets various successful operations, the effective execution of exercises RIBAT and SEASPARK are the prominent achievements. Additionally, missile and torpedo firings have played an effective role in enhancing our war preparedness, confidence and training. He commended the Fleet Command for undertaking the noble task of providing fresh drinking water to the residents of Gwadar and supporting own countrymen. The induction of the Modified P3C aircraft and PNS AZMAT in Pakistan Naval Fleet during 2012 is a significant landmark. Additionally, with the construction of PNS ASLAT and PNS DEHSHAT [FAC (M)] at Karachi shipyard, which will be formally inducted in PN Fleet in 2013, our defence capabilities will be further augmented. This year, ATR-72 aircraft will join PN and replace the ageing Fokkers.
He said the rapid changes in the technologies for defence equipment, especially maritime warfare and latest developments in naval strategies, demand optimum professional capabilities and the highest level of proficiency. Commander Pakistan Fleet, Vice Admiral Zakaullah, in his welcome address, recounted the operational achievements of PN Fleet during the year 2012. In the end, the Chief Guest Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila gave away the shields and congratulated all the efficiency winners. 


Pakistan facing numerous challenges: Sandila | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

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## XYON

A second hand ATR 72-500 is being sought by the Navy that has both passenger and cargo carrying facility.


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## Imran Khan

XYON said:


> A second hand ATR 72-500 is being sought by the Navy that has both passenger and cargo carrying facility.



only one ? why not 3

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## XYON

Money only available for buying one used ATR 72-500!!



Imran Khan said:


> only one ? why not 3

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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> only one ? why not 3



bhai atleast thank they are buying something otherwise the way our economy is going ...you cant expect anything substantial

PIA too operates some of them so they might transfer some in future like they did with fokker and airbus .

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## Jango

XYON said:


> A second hand ATR 72-500 is being sought by the Navy that has both passenger and cargo carrying facility.



So it is going to be replacing the VIP Fokker and not the MPA?

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## Imran Khan

Mani2020 said:


> bhai atleast thank they are buying something otherwise the way our economy is going ...you cant expect anything substantial
> 
> PIA too operates some of them so they might transfer some in future like they did with fokker and airbus .



pia operate ATR-42 dear not ATR-72

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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> pia operate ATR-42 dear not ATR-72



pretty much common in both platforms


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## Imran Khan

Mani2020 said:


> pretty much common in both platforms



no not at all if you watched crash documentary of ATR-72 

engineer think same as you that's why its crashed on sea

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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> no not at all if you watched crash documentary of ATR-72
> 
> engineer think same as you that's why its crashed on sea



The ATR 72 was developed from the ATR 42 in order to increase the seating capacity (48 to 78) by stretching the fuselage by 4.5 metres (15 ft), increasing the wingspan

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## Imran Khan

Mani2020 said:


> The ATR 72 was developed from the ATR 42 in order to increase the seating capacity (48 to 78) by stretching the fuselage by 4.5 metres (15 ft), increasing the wingspan



yes sir but you can't use technical staff and parts of each other both are totally different . tuninter air ATR 72 was crashed because fuel gauge of atr-42 was installed by engineers and maintenance .



On 6 August 2005, Tuninter Flight 1153, a Tuninter ATR 72 en route from Bari, Italy, to Djerba, Tunisia, ditched in the Mediterranean Sea about 18 miles (29 km) from the city of Palermo. Sixteen of the 39 people on board died. The accident resulted from engine fuel exhaustion due to the installation of fuel quantity indicators designed for the ATR 42 in the larger ATR 72.

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## Jango

Fuel gauge showed different readings because the tank volume in 72 is larger than 42. So the volume was calibrated wrongly by the fuel indicator.

A fair few mechanical systems on both the aircraft are similar, the cockpits are same, basic flight systems, fuselage cross section, landing gears etc etc. The engines are basically the same model as well except for a few changes and different power output. The type rating is also same for both aircraft.

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## razgriz19

What was the role of the fokker aircraft in the navy?
was it just for transport?


And If the ATR is used then we can safely assume that its not a ASW version that Turkish and other navies ordered...

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## Jango

razgriz19 said:


> What was the role of the fokker aircraft in the navy?
> was it just for transport?
> 
> 
> And If the ATR is used then we can safely assume that its not a ASW version that Turkish and other navies ordered...



It is also used as MPA. A couple examples also have FLIR installed on them.

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## Luftwaffe

razgriz19 said:


> What was the role of the fokker aircraft in the navy? was it just for transport?



ASW and possibly Transport, PN has its needed requirements, quesition is why didn't PN not look in CN-235/CN-295 from the point of view that Air Force is also operating CN235 in Transport Role. PAF can help PN initially in maintenance. I heard people saying due to Europeans components well ATR-72 also is French/Italian so what is the point when people say Western [Euro/US].

We shouldn't be looking at Turkey they have their requirements they have both CN-235 and ATR-72 as ASW/MPA. In context of Pakistan, I believe CN-235 is much better as well as Fleet commonality.

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## Last Hope

Luftwaffe said:


> ASW and possibly Transport, PN has its needed requirements, quesition is why didn't PN not look in CN-235/CN-295 from the point of view that Air Force is also operating CN235 in Transport Role. PAF can help PN initially in maintenance. I heard people saying due to Europeans components well ATR-72 also is French/Italian so what is the point when people say Western [Euro/US].
> 
> We shouldn't be looking at Turkey they have their requirements they have both CN-235 and ATR-72 as ASW/MPA. In context of Pakistan, I believe CN-235 is much better as well as Fleet commonality.



There are rumors that Pakistan (PAF/PN) might go for more CN-235s and C-130s soon.

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## Luftwaffe

Last Hope said:


> There are rumors that Pakistan (PAF/PN) might go for more CN-235s and C-130s soon.



Yes heard CN-235 for PAF. Think we should not go for more C-130H and wait till we have enough cash for C-130J. C-130s and CN-235 are enough for current requirement better save that cash for the future. We should stop buying older crap C-130E/H and look forward to C-130J in the Future in the next decade 2022+, how long would we be buying and refurbishing older models. I am more Interested in PAF getting its hand on couple of KC-130s for the F-16 Fleet that's the least we can get, it shouldn't cost more than $35M each as KC-130J costs approx $82-$85M.

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## Last Hope

Luftwaffe said:


> Yes heard CN-235 for PAF. Think we should not go for more C-130H and wait till we have enough cash for C-130J. C-130s and CN-235 are enough for current requirement better save that cash for the future. We should stop buying older crap C-130E/H and look forward to C-130J in the Future in the next decade 2022+, how long would we be buying and refurbishing older models. I am more Interested in PAF getting its hand on couple of KC-130s for the F-16 Fleet that's the least we can get, it shouldn't cost more than $35M each as KC-130J costs approx $82-$85M.



I agree, but I've better idea in my opinion, to convert the Boeing 707s into Aerial-Refuellers for F-16s. You can post further discussion in the sticky thread on this matter. 

Lets wait and see what the new leadership brings with them.

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## razgriz19

Last Hope said:


> I agree, but I've better idea in my opinion, to convert the Boeing 707s into Aerial-Refuellers for F-16s. You can post further discussion in the sticky thread on this matter.
> 
> Lets wait and see what the new leadership brings with them.



First of all, I doubt those 707 are still around...PIA already scrapped the older 747s and so i doubt PAF would fly much older aircraft. 
707s are very costly to operate, and with those older turbojet engines, also very unreliable. IF PAF still have them, I doubt they would upgrade it to KC-135 standard.

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## Luftwaffe

razgriz19 said:


> First of all, I doubt those 707 are still around...PIA already scrapped the older 747s and so i doubt PAF would fly much older aircraft. 707s are very costly to operate, and with those older turbojet engines, also very unreliable. IF PAF still have them, I doubt they would upgrade it to KC-135 standard.



Well the israel air force operates KC-707 but they are planning to replace them with KC-46 converted from Boeing 767 which is already selected by USAF. 

I agree with Last Hope lets discuss this in Transport/Air Refueller Thread.

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## Donatello

What is important is what gadgets and surveillance equipment are these ATR-72 going to come with?

How many is PN looking at?

Because i thought they were already looking for more P3Cs as it is a proven platform, plus it shares the engines with the C130 so ease of maintenance.

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## genmirajborgza786

Last Hope said:


> I agree, but I've better idea in my opinion, to convert the Boeing 707s into Aerial-Refuellers for F-16s. You can post further discussion in the sticky thread on this matter.
> 
> Lets wait and see what the new leadership brings with them.



the engines of those 707 are too old for any air refueling program if its done on those 707 for how long can it perform you should have given due consideration to that point when suggesting such

just my two cents

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## Luftwaffe

Gentlemen, lets not make it Transport/Air Refueller Thread, we can discuss that in appropriate Thread.

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## Mani2020

Luftwaffe said:


> Yes heard CN-235 for PAF. Think we should not go for more C-130H and wait till we have enough cash for C-130J. C-130s and CN-235 are enough for current requirement better save that cash for the future. We should stop buying older crap C-130E/H and look forward to C-130J in the Future in the next decade 2022+, how long would we be buying and refurbishing older models. I am more Interested in PAF getting its hand on couple of KC-130s for the F-16 Fleet that's the least we can get, it shouldn't cost more than $35M each as KC-130J costs approx $82-$85M.




There were talks for kc-135s some time back even talks for converting a-310 into refuelers that can be used for f-16s but the later one was rejected by the manufacturer as the aircraft was no longer in production instead they offered a-320 which i think Paf didnt have enough many to go for ...

kc-135s were getting retired by USAF due to their high operating costs as they are getting old ....a new platform was planned to replace these kc-135s but due to some budget cuts the program has not yet materialized ...retirement is getting delayed may be thats why PAF didnt get one or else the other reason will be their age and high operating cost keeping PAF away from them 

Another option can be incorporating boom refueling system in one of il-78 by mean of some foreign vendor to be used for f-16s

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## fatman17

two ATR are being purchased. one multi-role, one MPA

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## Luftwaffe

Mani2020 said:


> There were talks for kc-135s some time back even talks for converting a-310 into refuelers that can be used for f-16s but the later one was rejected by the manufacturer as the aircraft was no longer in production instead they offered a-320 which i think Paf didnt have enough many to go for.



You know A310 being rejected by manufacturer was just an excuse to Pakistan I can certainly say they were pressured, Even Germany and Canada chose A310 MRTT and the first one was operational with German Air Force by 2009, 707 is also not in production how is it israelis are operating 7-8 of them. The Fact is we are bad at buying why we lose opportunities. Now we don't know how much would it cost at converting 2 A310s and a few extra engines as spares, but I guess it would cost more in case of Pakistan so the best option still is KC-130 MRTT.

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## Mani2020

Luftwaffe said:


> You know A310 being rejected by manufacturer was just an excuse to Pakistan I can certainly say they were pressured, Even Germany and Canada chose A310 MRTT and the first one was operational with German Air Force by 2009, 707 is also not in production how is it israelis are operating 7-8 of them. The Fact is we are bad at buying why we lose opportunities. Now we don't know how much would it cost at converting 2 A310s and a few extra engines as spares, but I guess it would cost more in case of Pakistan so the best option still is KC-130 MRTT.



May be because PAF wanted the conversion of just 1 a-310 so it wouldnot have left the manufacturer with much of a profit so found an excuse to pitch a-320 for the role

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## airomerix

A310 can be easily converted to MRTT configuration. The A310 in service with the Airforce should be handed over to the germans for conversion. F-16s need it more then the mirages as they perform the CAP's.

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## Inception-06

Luftwaffe said:


> ASW and possibly Transport, PN has its needed requirements, quesition is why didn't PN not look in CN-235/CN-295 from the point of view that Air Force is also operating CN235 in Transport Role. PAF can help PN initially in maintenance. I heard people saying due to Europeans components well ATR-72 also is French/Italian so what is the point when people say Western [Euro/US].
> 
> We shouldn't be looking at Turkey they have their requirements they have both CN-235 and ATR-72 as ASW/MPA. In context of Pakistan, I believe CN-235 is much better as well as Fleet commonality.



you are 100% right, we would save a lot of cash by maintaince and training !

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## fatman17

A310's were only sold to Turkey and PIA by Airbus. it was not one of their more successful models. now converting to a tanker would cost an-arm-and-a-leg. would be better to upgrade the IL-78's with glass cockpit, avionics and quieter engines, and ofcourse buy a couple more.

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## Tehmasib

from which country PN going to buy this bird???


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## Imran Khan

Tehmasib said:


> from which country PN going to buy this bird???



as i know they are from UTair Aviation and 2 of them will join PN.

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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> A310's were only sold to Turkey and PIA by Airbus. it was not one of their more successful models. now converting to a tanker would cost an-arm-and-a-leg. *would be better to upgrade the IL-78's with glass cockpit, avionics and quieter engines*, and ofcourse buy a couple more.



is ukraine upgrading il-78s with the modifications you mentioned or have they done before to any of such aircrafts? at engine part as far as i know PAF already have different engines on the il-78 compared to the base models and many other aircrafts operational in other airforces

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> would be better to upgrade the IL-78's with glass cockpit, avionics and quieter engines, and ofcourse buy a couple more.



Il-476 is what you are looking for. Maybe some upgrades could be incorporated after about 7-8 years from the 476

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## Penguin

Tehmasib said:


> from which country PN going to buy this bird???



The ATR 42 is a twin-turboprop, short-haul regional airliner built in France and Italy by ATR (Aerei da Trasporto Regionale or Avions de Transport Régional). ATR and some Airbus models have their final assembly in Toulouse, and share resources and technology. 

Civil operators include Pakistan International Airlines (7)

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## Fieldmarshal

*A deal for two MPA varient of the ATR had been signed. crew training is complete and PN is awaiting delivery in a month or two.*

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## Gentelman

Good news..
well for what purpose they will be used??
just for transportation of some sort of surveillance can ve done with them??


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## Viper0011.

Imran Khan said:


> only one ? why not 3



Multiple reasons, the US agreeing to supplying more P3C's that can be used in dual roles. Lack of $$ for brand new planes due to PAF using funds for buying jets and JFT. Plus they want a TEST Drive first before procuring more. Typical PAF - PN procurement model


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> *A deal for two MPA varient of the ATR had been signed. crew training is complete and PN is awaiting delivery in a month or two.*



Deal signed with whom?

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## airomerix

A naval officer did tell me that the Fokkers of PN are in very good condition. But then the newer the better.


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## Jango

airomerix said:


> A naval officer did tell me that the Fokkers of PN are in very good condition. But then the newer the better.



IMO the ATR-72 will be a replacement for the Atlantiques, no?

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## airomerix

fatman17 said:


> A310's were only sold to Turkey and PIA by Airbus. it was not one of their more successful models. now converting to a tanker would cost an-arm-and-a-leg. would be better to upgrade the IL-78's with glass cockpit, avionics and quieter engines, and ofcourse buy a couple more.



Even Qatar Airways used A310's for quite some time. The only A310 in service with PAF was gifted by Qatar Airways to the Government of Pakistan when the Qatar Airways hoped to purchase PIA but our government never gave a **** even after receiving the jet. And today it is used as a VVIP transport by our President and Prime minister.

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## airomerix

nuclearpak said:


> IMO the ATR-72 will be a replacement for the Atlantiques, no?



Only if we can find out about the possible upgrades which ATRs will go through. Atlantiques were martime patrol props and a standard ATR cannot serve that purpose. The Fokkers however maybe replaced. Fingers Crossed.


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## Jango

airomerix said:


> Only if we can find out about the possible upgrades which ATRs will go through. Atlantiques were martime patrol props and a standard ATR cannot serve that purpose. The Fokkers however maybe replaced. Fingers Crossed.



It would certainly be interesting to see what happens to the FLIR Fokkers, whether they will be kept on stored and ATR perhaps be equipped with FLIR?

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## airomerix

nuclearpak said:


> It would certainly be interesting to see what happens to the FLIR Fokkers, whether they will be kept on stored and ATR perhaps be equipped with FLIR?



If we look at the numbers then I guess Atlantiques are to be replaced. PN has 6 Fokkers and had 2 Atlantiques. The talk going on is about the purchasing of 2 ATR's. Hence the replacement of 2 Atlantiques with 2 ATR's makes sense. 

Except if PN is looking to retire 2 or 3 oldest Fokkers in favor of 2 new ATR's.

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## Jango

airomerix said:


> If we look at the numbers then I guess Atlantiques are to be replaced. PN has 6 Fokkers and had 2 Atlantiques. The talk going on is about the purchasing of 2 ATR's. Hence the replacement of 2 Atlantiques with 2 ATR's makes sense.
> 
> Except if PN is looking to retire 2 or 3 oldest Fokkers in favor of 2 new ATR's.



Yeah...the news articles say that Fokkers are going to be replaced (there are no direct quotes though), but the aircraft that has been retired is Atlantique. Another thing is that there is also talk that ATR will also be used in a transport role, and Fokker is also in a transport role. The outgoing aircraft (Atlantique) was not used as a transport IMO.

It certainly is one to look out for...

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## Imran Khan

getting ready for PN

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## Imran Khan



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## Jango

So looks like it will just be a normal VIP/Cargo platform, not a ASW or MPA. So not a replacement for Atlantiques.

BTW, isn't the flag painted wrong in the above pic?

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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> So looks like it will just be a normal VIP/Cargo platform, not a ASW or MPA. So not a replacement for Atlantiques.
> 
> BTW, isn't the flag painted wrong in the above pic?



The ac we see in the pic is to serve as the trainer for crew fimilarization, after the crew are ready the MPA will be delivered.


p.s : are the atr brand new or referbished ? cuz from the pic it looks like referbished with spanish registeration.

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> The ac we see in the pic is to serve as the trainer for crew fimilarization, after the crew are ready the MPA will be delivered.
> 
> 
> p.s : are the atr brand new or referbished ? cuz from the pic it looks like referbished with spanish registeration.



Yup they are refurbished. Nearly 9 years old, Binter Canarias was the last airline.

So this would be like the Saabs, one for crew familiarization and the rest for actual roles.

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## Jango

The ATR has left Spain on it's delivery flight, will probably make a couple of stops in the way.

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


>



the MPA fit is still required - the config will be just like the Fokkers - transport / MPA.

the only VIP / ESM aircraft is the Hawker 850 in PN service.

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## Imran Khan



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## Gentelman

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah...the news articles say that Fokkers are going to be replaced (there are no direct quotes though), but the aircraft that has been retired is Atlantique. Another thing is that there is also talk that ATR will also be used in a transport role, and Fokker is also in a transport role. The outgoing aircraft (Atlantique) was not used as a transport IMO.
> 
> It certainly is one to look out for...



what Atlantique is retired???
ATR can carry weapons?? i don't think they can...while Atlantique can be used for anti ship role...
so wt about that??
ATR will just be a reconnaissance aircraft with a radar fitted on it for this purpose??

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## Taha Samad

I think with at least 7-9 P-3Cs, PN has much increased Anti-Ship and Anti-Submarine Capability compared to the past. 



Gentelman said:


> what Atlantique is retired???
> ATR can carry weapons?? i don't think they can...while Atlantique can be used for anti ship role...
> so wt about that??
> ATR will just be a reconnaissance aircraft with a radar fitted on it for this purpose??

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like a good purchase, transport planes are in shortage

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## Gentelman

Taha Samad said:


> I think with at least 7-9 P-3Cs, PN has much increased Anti-Ship and Anti-Submarine Capability compared to the past.



well but we should have 2 platforms...
and P3-Cs came for almost free...
P3-Cs use Harpoons and all stuff from US which is unpredictable 
and i heard that ATR will also be surveillance aircraft with some kind og radar fitted on it...

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## Donatello

Any details on the MPA equipment for these ATRs?


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## Imran Khan



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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> the MPA fit is still required - the config will be just like the Fokkers - transport / MPA.
> 
> the only VIP / ESM aircraft is the Hawker 850 in PN service.



MPA cant be used as transport. As ur typical military MPA is fitted with a wide range of sensors:
Radar ,Magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) Sonobuoys ,ELINT ,Infrared cameras etc 
and this is very basic equipment that i have written above in addition to different kind of weapons ranging from a2a- a2sub surface.
on top that a military MPA typically carries a dozen or so crew members, including relief flight crews, to effectively operate the equipment for 8-12 hours sorties at a time.
Their is no way that any one or any navy will remove all that equipment to convert the ac into a transport over night or ever. plus with all the equipment and crew on board thier is no room for any passenger or cargo.

so in such a situation the trainer will be the only ATR in the PN fleet which could be used for transport purposes.

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## fatman17

Fieldmarshal said:


> MPA cant be used as transport. As ur typical military MPA is fitted with a wide range of sensors:
> Radar ,Magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) Sonobuoys ,ELINT ,Infrared cameras etc
> and this is very basic equipment that i have written above in addition to different kind of weapons ranging from a2a- a2sub surface.
> on top that a military MPA typically carries a dozen or so crew members, including relief flight crews, to effectively operate the equipment for 8-12 hours sorties at a time.
> Their is no way that any one or any navy will remove all that equipment to convert the ac into a transport over night or ever. plus with all the equipment and crew on board thier is no room for any passenger or cargo.
> 
> so in such a situation the trainer will be the only ATR in the PN fleet which could be used for transport purposes.



MPA's in PN service are un-armed. you may be referring to an P-3C ASW configuration.

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## fatman17

typical MPA will be fitted with an electro-optical sensor and synthetic aperture radar that will feed data to at least three crew monitoring stations.

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## Jango

Looking at the tender of the PA aircraft, looks like only one ATR-72 has been ordered as of this moment.

ANd that aircraft has no provisions whatsoever for a MPA or ASW role. The conditions stipulated in the tender outline that their should be a cargo bay, a cargo door, and a capacity of 4 tonnes.

The seating would be done just like in any other cargo aircraft, those tarpaulin seats on the walls.

Their is also a provision for para drops.

So only cargo and troop carrier...

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Looking at the tender of the PA aircraft, looks like only one ATR-72 has been ordered as of this moment.
> 
> ANd that aircraft has no provisions whatsoever for a MPA or ASW role. The conditions stipulated in the tender outline that their should be a cargo bay, a cargo door, and a capacity of 4 tonnes.
> 
> The seating would be done just like in any other cargo aircraft, those tarpaulin seats on the walls.
> 
> Their is also a provision for para drops.
> 
> So only cargo and troop carrier...



MPA fit will be done locally by removing the sensors, radars and crew stations from the fokkers and these are in good working condition.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> MPA fit will be done locally by removing the sensors, radars and crew stations from the fokkers and these are in good working condition.



So why the provision for Cargo and para drop? 

I don't think there is enough room to have 4 tonnes of cargo and para drop if you have MPA equipment?

And if it does happen, so old MPA equipment will be taken of the Fokker and aircraft will be retired?

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> So why the provision for Cargo and para drop?
> 
> I don't think there is enough room to have 4 tonnes of cargo and para drop if you have MPA equipment?
> 
> And if it does happen, so old MPA equipment will be taken of the Fokker and aircraft will be retired?



sir i am only quoting naval source - plus ATR-72 is larger than Fokker F-27. F-27 = Atr-42

i can be wrong - i was wrong once...!

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> i can be wrong - i was wrong once...!



No probs sirjee...I believe you since I have no info on the issue.

BTW, when were you wrong before?

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> No probs sirjee...I believe you since I have no info on the issue.
> 
> BTW, when were you wrong before?



dont remember.....

BTW all naval fokkers were used in multi-role due to lack of assets.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> dont remember.....



Abhi app itnay burhay nhn huay!!!

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Abhi app itnay burhay nhn huay!!!



59 years young!

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> 59 years young!



That's the spirit!!!

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Navy Acquires Second-Hand ATR72*


Posted on: March 4th, 2013

Newly-acquired Pakistan Navy ATR72-212A EC-JAH (c/n 712) seen on the ramp at Las Palmas-Gran Canaria, Spain, on February 28, awaiting delivery. The aircraft departed for Pakistan on March 2. 

A SINGLE second-hand ATR72-212A, EC-JAH (c/n 712), has been acquired by the Pakistan Navy. The aircraft was previously operated by Spanish commercial airline Binter Canarias, based at Las Palmas-Gran Canaria, where it was repainted in Pakistan Navy colours before delivery. It departed from Las Palmas on March 2 on its delivery flight, initially routing via Palma, Spain; Antalya, Turkey and Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

A tender had been issued by the Pakistan Navy on October 31, 2012, for the supply of a single combi-configured ATR72-500, which was required to be delivered within six months. Bids had to be submitted by December 18.

The tender documents specified a requirement for an aircraft with a large cargo door, plus an air-openable rear door for air drop of relief goods and rescue personnel. However, the example acquired does not appear to have been modified and it may be that this will take place later in order to get the aircraft quickly into service for crew training.

Although the tender only specified one aircraft, previous reports had suggested that an order for two was likely to be placed to enable replacement of two of the Navy&#8217;s elderly Fokker F27 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA). It had been planned to acquire the ATRs initially in a basic configuration for crew training, converting them later for the MPA role. It is thought likely that lack of funding has probably led to just one aircraft being initially purchased.
AFD-Dave Allport

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## Fieldmarshal

Still the atr are multiple in number, 3-4 and not one.


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## airomerix

Pakistan Navy ATR 72-212A (former EC-JAH) photographed at Gran Canaria Airport (Las Palmas Airport) on February 28, 2013.







The delivery flight route for this aircraft was:

Gran Canaria Airport->Palma de Mallorca Airport->Antalya Airport->Jeddah Airport.

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> to enable replacement of two of the Navy&#8217;s elderly Fokker F27



Makes me chuckle @ elderly Fokker...

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Makes me chuckle @ elderly Fokker...


 
but they are.....!



Fieldmarshal said:


> Still the atr are multiple in number, 3-4 and not one.



yes thats the requirement - when it will be fulfilled is anybody's guess.


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## Fieldmarshal

the requesit no. of crews for multiple no. of atr are now rated to fly the ac. they are all back in Pak now.


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## Lebanks

Using F-27 as donor aircraft for re-equipping the ATR's is a feasible option for PN. Examples of similar donor programs involved removal of the Harpoon & CIWS weapons platforms from retired Gearing class DDG's & retrofitting them to the Type-21 FFG's. 

The MPA suite on the PN F-27 is nowhere near as comprehensive as that on the current P-3C's or even the Atlantics. Any MPA capability will be a relatively limited by comparison. The need for a multifunctional troop/cargo aircraft is what the current stated requirement is. SSGN role has seen increased impetus in the last decade or so & fortunately PN has had the foresight to factor this in when looking at acquisition of aviation assets. Of course helping shift large loads in particular during national emergencies is vital.

As with all things, funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole and not just PN. F-27 are getting long in the tooth & it's only a matter of time before the 7 serving examples are retired & need replacing. By going for an air frame in use by the national airline may have been a coincidence, but will nonetheless by a welcome relief for PN as the sole example ATR aircraft will likely be maintained or at least leverage the experience of PIA. This was much the same when PN & MSA initially inducted F-27's & sent their aircraft to PIA for service/maintainer until they built their own organic infrastructure.

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## khanasifm

Lebanks said:


> Using F-27 as donor aircraft for re-equipping the ATR's is a feasible option for PN. Examples of similar donor programs involved removal of the Harpoon & CIWS weapons platforms from retired Gearing class DDG's & retrofitting them to the Type-21 FFG's.
> 
> The MPA suite on the PN F-27 is nowhere near as comprehensive as that on the current P-3C's or even the Atlantics. Any MPA capability will be a relatively limited by comparison. The need for a multifunctional troop/cargo aircraft is what the current stated requirement is. SSGN role has seen increased impetus in the last decade or so & fortunately PN has had the foresight to factor this in when looking at acquisition of aviation assets. Of course helping shift large loads in particular during national emergencies is vital.
> 
> As with all things, funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole and not just PN. F-27 are getting long in the tooth & it's only a matter of time before the 7 serving examples are retired & need replacing. By going for an air frame in use by the national airline may have been a coincidence, but will nonetheless by a welcome relief for PN as the sole example ATR aircraft will likely be maintained or at least leverage the experience of PIA. This was much the same when PN & MSA initially inducted F-27's & sent their aircraft to PIA for service/maintainer until they built their own organic infrastructure.



F27 radar and sensor, Ocean Master radar

Pakistan Naval Aviation ASW ... At A Glance

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Documents/Brochure_Ocean_Master_09-2011/

Radar Basics


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## fatman17

Lebanks said:


> Using F-27 as donor aircraft for re-equipping the ATR's is a feasible option for PN. Examples of similar donor programs involved removal of the Harpoon & CIWS weapons platforms from retired Gearing class DDG's & retrofitting them to the Type-21 FFG's.
> 
> The MPA suite on the PN F-27 is nowhere near as comprehensive as that on the current P-3C's or even the Atlantics. Any MPA capability will be a relatively limited by comparison. The need for a multifunctional troop/cargo aircraft is what the current stated requirement is. SSGN role has seen increased impetus in the last decade or so & fortunately PN has had the foresight to factor this in when looking at acquisition of aviation assets. Of course helping shift large loads in particular during national emergencies is vital.
> 
> As with all things, funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole and not just PN. F-27 are getting long in the tooth & it's only a matter of time before the 7 serving examples are retired & need replacing. By going for an air frame in use by the national airline may have been a coincidence, but will nonetheless by a welcome relief for PN as the sole example ATR aircraft will likely be maintained or at least leverage the experience of PIA. This was much the same when PN & MSA initially inducted F-27's & sent their aircraft to PIA for service/maintainer until they built their own organic infrastructure.



at least 2-4 ATR-72's are planned for induction to replace the F-27's.

also welcome to the forum. hope your stay is fruitful.


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## muse

All these threads end "funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole " ---

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## Jango

Where is the first ATR? No pics, no news or anything.

It had reportedly departed the canary Islands last month and its last stop on it's route was supposed to be Jeddah...so b y now it should have been in Pak territory.
@fatman17, any news?

BTW, a tender for a third ATR also combi version has been released by PN.


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## Mani2020

muse said:


> All these threads end "funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole " ---



sshh dnt hit on the nerves of braggers !!


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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> All these threads end "funds are the main source of issue for Pakistan as a whole " ---



Money can still be obtained, but it is the access to technology that would be denied due to potential sanctions that we must avoid.


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## Mani2020

Argus Panoptes said:


> *Money can still be obtained*, but it is the access to technology that would be denied due to potential sanctions that we must avoid.



can you kindly elaborate this part, the question that clicks is how!!! in past we have obtained funds from saudi's in return of some services but we have wasted them one way or the other. No country is going to baby sit you time n time again if you dont want to learn from the retrospect and stand on your own feet... You are becoming a liability for many


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## Argus Panoptes

Mani2020 said:


> can you kindly elaborate this part, the question that clicks is how!!! in past we have obtained funds from saudi's in return of some services but we have wasted them one way or the other. No country is going to baby sit you time n time again if you dont want to learn from the retrospect and stand on your own feet... You are becoming a liability for many



For military purchases like the ATR-72 for the Navy, money is the easiest to arrange, it is the willingness of the seller that is the real issue for most purchases. For example, our economy may be have a down period, but it is relatively easy to set aside a few billion within a year or two by taking proper management steps if we really put our minds to it. But look at Iran. Even with oil money nobody will set it anything really useful. That was my point.

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## Mani2020

Argus Panoptes said:


> For military purchases like the ATR-72 for the Navy, money is the easiest to arrange, it is the willingness of the seller that is the real issue for most purchases. For example, our economy may be have a down period, but it is relatively easy to set aside a few billion within a year or two by taking proper management steps if we really put our minds to it. But look at Iran. Even with oil money nobody will set it anything really useful. That was my point.



Navy needs some major modernization , for that setting couple of billions aside will not make much of a difference ...for small acquisitions like couple of refurbished atr-72 it might will providing that the seller is willing to sell them on credit....but for other things like modern frigates, submarines and related gadgets they will not make much of a difference . the last resort is china who is the only one country providing you with soft loans for purchases but for european tech you need hard cash ...remember the u boat deal is dead coz of the same reasons .....US will never let you get your hands on their latest gadgets so the only option will be china but the big question ; is the chinese equipment on par with western counterparts . F-22P is one of the examples where for me PN went for it coz of two reasons urgent need for replacement and beef up secondly it was relatively cheaper but when you compare it with the modern frigates it certainly lags behind


btw out of meager 6.5 billion budget with one of the largest military by size that needs heavy modernization wat kind of funds management you are talking about is above my head !!!!!!!!


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## muse

Argus Panoptes said:


> Money can still be obtained, but it is the access to technology that would be denied due to potential sanctions that we must avoid.




We are seeking access to technology with invisible funds? That's interesting - you know it seems to me that if funds can be available so can anything else. We need to be honest with ourselves, our malady is not that funds are unavailable, but rather we that we refuse to acknowledge how we can create funding.

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## fatman17

Argus Panoptes said:


> For military purchases like the ATR-72 for the Navy, money is the easiest to arrange, it is the willingness of the seller that is the real issue for most purchases. For example, our economy may be have a down period, but it is relatively easy to set aside a few billion within a year or two by taking proper management steps if we really put our minds to it. But look at *Iran.* Even with oil money nobody will set it anything really useful. That was my point.



thats not a good example. iran is under UN mandated sanctions. PK comes under US country-to-country sanctions. for other countries esp. west we need to have better relations with them.

and yes money does talk.....



nuclearpak said:


> Where is the first ATR? No pics, no news or anything.
> 
> It had reportedly departed the canary Islands last month and its last stop on it's route was supposed to be Jeddah...so b y now it should have been in Pak territory.
> @fatman17, any news?
> 
> BTW, a tender for a *third ATR* also combi version has been released by PN.



pics were posted.
what about the 2nd first.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> pics were posted.
> what about the 2nd first.



Those pics were of the plane still in Canary Islands...not on the delivery flight.

The tender for second one was already given along with the first one, 2 aircraft in one tender before, now a separate one for third.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Those pics were of the plane still in Canary Islands...not on the delivery flight.
> 
> The tender for second one was already given along with the first one, 2 aircraft in one tender before, now a separate one for third.



delivery ho gai hai.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> delivery ho gai hai.



Any idea about the serial number waghaira?

It should be at PNS Mehran right...


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## Argus Panoptes

fatman17 said:


> thats not a good example. *iran is under UN mandated sanctions. PK comes under US country-to-country sanctions.* for other countries esp. west we need to have better relations with them.
> 
> and yes money does talk.....
> ................



Good point Sir, except that UN sanctions on Iran were imposed by the same group of nations that can extend country to country sanction to the international levels. We must avoid that by having better relations with the west, like you say.



muse said:


> We are seeking access to technology with invisible funds? That's interesting - you know* it seems to me that if funds can be available so can anything else.* We need to be honest with ourselves, our malady is not that funds are unavailable, but rather we that we refuse to acknowledge how we can create funding.



My point is that money can be hard to come by or limited, but it is relatively easier to obtain compared to technology which is under sanctions. That is why I quoted Iran with the observation that we must avoid that situation.

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## Nishan_101

Its amazing to see that PN has done a great mistake. Rather it should have focused with PAF that if PAC will assemble two types then they will going to buy it from PAC:
7 Saab-340 MPAs
11 Saab-2000 MPAs
both will have external weapons carriage capability along with MPA equipment from EU.

And Even PAF will buy bunch of it like:
5 Saab-2000 for AEW&Cs
7-8 Saab-2000 for transport
3 Saab-2000 for Recon and Survellance

5 Saab-340 for Recon and Survellance
5-7 Saab-340 for transport

And Even can be offered to PIA on behalf of payment from GoP.
5 Saab-340
5 Saab-2000

We can modify it like we did to Mushak and make them near to or even better than ATR-42 and ATR-72


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## imiakhtar

Nishan_101 said:


> Its amazing to see that PN has done a great mistake. Rather it should have focused with PAF that if PAC will assemble two types then they will going to buy it from PAC:
> 7 Saab-340 MPAs
> 11 Saab-2000 MPAs
> both will have external weapons carriage capability along with MPA equipment from EU.
> 
> And Even PAF will buy bunch of it like:
> 5 Saab-2000 for AEW&Cs
> 7-8 Saab-2000 for transport
> 3 Saab-2000 for Recon and Survellance
> 
> 5 Saab-340 for Recon and Survellance
> 5-7 Saab-340 for transport
> 
> And Even can be offered to PIA on behalf of payment from GoP.
> 5 Saab-340
> 5 Saab-2000
> 
> We can modify it like we did to Mushak and make them near to or even better than ATR-42 and ATR-72



Why would Saab sell Pakistan licensing rights to assemble and upgrade aircraft? After all, Saab is making good money doing that.

Furthermore, do you realise that the ATR family of aircraft have been the best selling turboprop of the last decade due to it's low operating costs? Bang for buck (sorry, rupee), it's the best turboprop out there.

Stop dreaming and look at the reality. The PAF and Army will continue to enjoy the bulk of the defence budget (which isn't very much), and the Navy will be left with scraps. That will continue to be the case until Pakistanis start paying their taxes.

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## razgriz19



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## fatman17

imiakhtar said:


> Why would Saab sell Pakistan licensing rights to assemble and upgrade aircraft? After all, Saab is making good money doing that.
> 
> Furthermore, do you realise that the ATR family of aircraft have been the best selling turboprop of the last decade due to it's low operating costs? Bang for buck (sorry, rupee), it's the best turboprop out there.
> 
> Stop dreaming and look at the reality. The PAF and Army will continue to enjoy the bulk of the defence budget (which isn't very much), and the Navy will be left with scraps. That will continue to be the case until Pakistanis start paying their taxes.



nishan101 logic or illogic is based on his 'desirements' not realistic assessments of 'requirements'.



Argus Panoptes said:


> Good point Sir, except that UN sanctions on Iran were imposed by the same group of nations that can extend country to country sanction to the international levels. We must avoid that by having better relations with the west, like you say.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that money can be hard to come by or limited, but it is relatively easier to obtain compared to technology which is under sanctions. That is why I quoted Iran with the observation that we must avoid that situation.



i dont disagree and therefore the nation should pay its taxes so that we can purchase material with our own soverign funds and have many suppliers - hard cash is hard to refuse.......


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## Nishan_101

But still I would say that if PAC had started up a JV with Chinese on Y-9 and smaller twin prop. then it will be good for PN to have an MPA version of it in their fleet about 11 Big and 11 small ones...


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## Argus Panoptes

fatman17 said:


> nishan101 logic or illogic is based on his 'desirements' not realistic assessments of 'requirements'.
> 
> 
> 
> i dont disagree and therefore *the nation should pay its taxes so that we can purchase material with our own soverign funds and have many suppliers - hard cash is hard to refuse*.......



Again, a good point. Our tax revenues need to increase substantially if we are to make ourselves secure.

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## truthseeker2010

nuclearpak said:


> Any idea about the serial number waghaira?
> 
> It should be at PNS Mehran right...



Its registered as EC-JAH (cn 712)..... its an ex Binter Canarias aircraft.

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## Jango

I meant the number in navy...that is civilian registration.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> I meant the number in navy...that is civilian registration.



PN S/N are painted when a/c arrives at its destination.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> PN S/N are painted when a/c arrives at its destination.



Don't tell me that they haven't reached Pak yet...!

It was spotted in Mallorca on a delivery flight on 3 March!!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Don't tell me that they haven't reached Pak yet...!
> 
> It was spotted in Mallorca on a delivery flight on 3 March!!!



Who says they are not reached, I've seen it twice landing at Faisal Base Karachi. Although i've captured P-3c & C-130 several times with cellphone camera but i could not capture it.

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## Jango

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Who says they are not reached, I've seen it twice landing at Faisal Base Karachi. Although i've captured P-3c & C-130 several times with cellphone camera but i could not capture it.



Remember to get a picture the next time!


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## Cool_Soldier

PAkistan Navy Assets

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## Penguin

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/3/0/9/7/96568_1362182790.jpg
http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/3/3/1/8/93204_1366299813.jpg
http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/3/9/6/4/56341_1365272469.jpg
http://www.aviationcorner.net/public/photos/0/2/avc_00290202.jpg
http://www.aviationcorner.net/public/photos/9/1/avc_00290091.jpg
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/airomerix/ECJAH_zps361c7749.jpg

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## Bamboo Castle

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan facing numerous challenges: Sandila
> News Comments (0)
> PPI 15 hrs ago | Comments (0)
> Navy
> 
> KARACHI - Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila has said the country is faced with traditional and a host of non-traditional challenges, however, under the guidance of the governments policies, Pakistan Navy is currently engaged in executing its designated efforts to meet the challenges at national as well as regional level, and will continue to play its due role in future too.
> The naval chief said this on Wednesday while addressing the annual efficiency competition parade and awards ceremony of Pakistan Navy for the year 2012 held at PN Dockyard. To pick up the gauntlet of participating in naval operations to combat terrorism and international piracy in collaboration with allied navies, Pakistan Navys regular contribution as well as commanding Task Forces 150 and 151 is ample acknowledgement of PNs high professional standards as well as endeavor to establish peace in the region, he added.
> The efficiency parade, held every year, signifies the professional achievements of PN fleet units over the last 12 months. Fleet units, which excel in various categories, are awarded shields to acknowledge their outstanding performances, besides boosting healthy competition within the Command, an ISPR release said. The chief of the naval staff said that we bow our heads in expressing our gratitude to the Almighty for endowing upon us the opportunity to observe and celebrate the conclusion of another year of professional dedication; simultaneously, it is a day for expressing not only our firm resolve that during the new year too we shall not only take up the mantle of gradually enhancing our professional standards but also endeavor to apply ourselves dedicatedly towards the accomplishment of our professional goals with even greater commitment. While paying tribute to the brave officers, sailors and men who laid down their lives while defending against terror attacks, the naval chief said in the prevailing milieu, Pakistan Navy had undertaken a number of steps but to effectively counter the prevailing threat, preparation to meet challenges is a persistent effort, constant vigilance and preparedness can make national defence impregnable.
> He added that apart from Pakistan fleets various successful operations, the effective execution of exercises RIBAT and SEASPARK are the prominent achievements. Additionally, missile and torpedo firings have played an effective role in enhancing our war preparedness, confidence and training. He commended the Fleet Command for undertaking the noble task of providing fresh drinking water to the residents of Gwadar and supporting own countrymen. The induction of the Modified P3C aircraft and PNS AZMAT in Pakistan Naval Fleet during 2012 is a significant landmark. Additionally, with the construction of PNS ASLAT and PNS DEHSHAT [FAC (M)] at Karachi shipyard, which will be formally inducted in PN Fleet in 2013, our defence capabilities will be further augmented. This year, ATR-72 aircraft will join PN and replace the ageing Fokkers.
> He said the rapid changes in the technologies for defence equipment, especially maritime warfare and latest developments in naval strategies, demand optimum professional capabilities and the highest level of proficiency. Commander Pakistan Fleet, Vice Admiral Zakaullah, in his welcome address, recounted the operational achievements of PN Fleet during the year 2012. In the end, the Chief Guest Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila gave away the shields and congratulated all the efficiency winners.
> 
> 
> Pakistan facing numerous challenges: Sandila | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia



I heard, the ATR-72 are meant for replacing those two P-3C orions destroyed in 2011. I guess I heard wrong.


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## Bamboo Castle

Imran Khan said:


> only one ? why not 3



Budget crisis... One as trainer at the moment, and when the budget constrain refrains then two more with ASW kit.


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## fatman17

and the ASW kit is rumoured to be the turkish Meltam-III.

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## Inception-06

Cant the F-27 be upgraded and use for SSG or NSSG air borne Troops ?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> and the ASW kit is rumoured to be the turkish Meltam-III.



Any idea when it would be fitted? And the aircraft will go to Turkey I assume?


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## khanasifm

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld

Per Alan Warnes April 3, PN getting 4 ATR-72 to replace F27s.

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Any idea when it would be fitted? And the aircraft will go to Turkey I assume?



most likely.....



khanasifm said:


> https://twitter.com/warnesyworld
> 
> Per Alan Warnes April 3, PN getting 4 ATR-72 to replace F27s.



thats the plan. now it depends on our govt. to allocate funds for these capital expenditures...


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## monitor

Alenia Aeronautica has used its engineering and consolidated integration capabilities to design the ATR72 ASW. Based on the ATR72-500 aircraft, the ATR72 ASW is a new solution for a medium range anti-submarine warfare aircraft at affordable cost. The ATR72 ASW integrates the Maritime Patrol Mission System with the additional capabilities required for ASW missions including acoustic system with sonobuoy launcher, MAD, self protection and antisurface and antisubmarine armament.The ATR72 ASW has been recently selected as the winner of the MELTEM-3 Program issued by the Turkish Government for the supply of ten aircraft to the Turkish Navy.Alenia Aeronautica also realizes the ATR42 MP Surveyor, the maritime patrol version of the ATR commuter aircraft, already in service with the Italian Customs Police and Coast Guard.


The Meltem III program, the contract of which was signed with Alenia Aeronautica S.p.A. in December 2005, became effective in April 2006. Under the program, the modification, regarding the transformation of a total of 10 ATR72-500 aircraft into ATR72-500ASW Maritime Patrol (MPA) aircraft will be realized by TAI.

TAI&#8217;s work load, which is increased proportionally when compared to Meltem II program, comprises; design of system installation and structural integration, Kit-A and tools manufacturing, procurement of material and support equipment, structural modification, assembly, ground-flight support and integrated logistics support (ILS) activities for a total of 42 work packages.


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## Nishan_101

So what are the alternative aircraft of such categories like of:
ATR-72/Saab-2000

ATR-42/Saab-340

Please members upload complete date about them along with pictures.


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## Nishan_101

I think if PN and PAF has decided at earlier stages like in 2000 along with PIA(under confidence from GoP in terms of Finance  like always) then it wouldn't be a bad idea at all for PAC to license produce:

*For PN:*(with weapons carriage two under each wing and two under fuselage)
11 ATR-42s MPA
11 ATR-72s MPA

*For PAF:*(with weapons carriage two under each wing and two under fuselage)
11 ATR-42s AEW&Cs
11 ATR-72s Surveillance and Reconnaissance

May be some:
11 ATR-42s Military Transport
11 ATR-72s Military Transport

That will be used by All of the Military and Govt. branches to travel on.

*For PIA(GoP Finance)*
7 ATR-42s Transport
7 ATR-72s Transport

So about 30 of both Aircraft would be produced under license at PAC that will going to give jobs to many people and the money would be then returned in the form of Knowledge as well. And we can also have export potential due to lower price as well as future partnership as well.

*I have a relative in PIA who always says that PIA earns a lot for these Cheap Turbo Props and PIA had made a decent amount of money from F-27 Foker which requires less maintenance and fuel as well.*


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## AUSTERLITZ

Can this carry harpoon missiles?



Nishan_101 said:


> I think if PN and PAF has decided at earlier stages like in 2000 along with PIA(under confidence from GoP in terms of Finance  like always) then it wouldn't be a bad idea at all for PAC to license produce:
> 
> *For PN:*(with weapons carriage two under each wing and two under fuselage)
> 11 ATR-42s MPA
> 11 ATR-72s MPA
> 
> *For PAF:*(with weapons carriage two under each wing and two under fuselage)
> 11 ATR-42s AEW&Cs
> 11 ATR-72s Surveillance and Reconnaissance
> 
> *For PIA(GoP Finance)*
> 7 ATR-42s AEW&Cs
> 7 ATR-72s Surveillance and Reconnaissance
> 
> So about 30 of both Aircraft would be produced under license at PAC that will going to give jobs to many people and the money would be then returned in the form of Knowledge as well. And we can also have export potential due to lower price as well as future partnership as well.
> 
> *I have a relative in PIA who always says that PIA earns a lot for these Cheap Turbo Props and PIA had made a decent amount of money from F-27 Foker which requires less maintenance and fuel as well.*



Turboprops are good for maritime patrol,unless u have opposition carrier battle group in area,in that case u need fighter escorts.Otherwise they are cheap and slow enough to track and kills subs with efficiency.Against surface battle group they need escort and long range standoff weapons as with big RCS ships radar will pick them up very early.


----------



## fatman17

*Thales Displays Full-Up Maritime Patrol System AIN Defense Perspective*

» June 21, 2013 by Chris Pocock


An operator views screens that form part of the Thales Amascos system.

On show for the first time at the Paris Air Show this week was a complete Thales Amascos system, the French company&#8217;s contender in the booming maritime surveillance market.


The integrated system weighs less and requires less power than older systems, Thales claims. It ties together radar, Elint, electronic warfare, optronic and acoustic sensors, as well as communications systems and tactical datalinks. It has a modular architecture that enables it to be adapted to smaller aircraft performing surveillance from a single console only, to large aircraft for the anti-surface and anti-submarine missions, which will have four or five consoles. Each console position has two screens that are redundant and interchangeable. The system can be reconfigured during a mission, if the tactical coordinator desires, and this means the aircraft can stay airborne for longer, resulting in a potentially smaller fleet.

&#8220;We are masters of most sensors, and we are also strong in maritime C2 architecture, where 50 navies already use our Tacticos system,&#8221; Pierre Eric Pommelet, Thales executive vice president, defense mission systems, told AIN. But Thales will adapt Amascos to work with any sensor that a customer specifies, which is more likely to be in the communications and Elint domain, he added.

The company is also platform-agnostic. To date, Amascos has been integrated on Airbus Military CN-235s (Indonesia and Turkey); Alenia ATR 72s (Turkey); Beechcraft King Airs (Malaysia); Bombardier Dash 8s (UAE Air Force); Dassault Falcon 900s (Japan); and Gulfstream IVs (Turkey). The Turkish ATR 72 contract is currently under way, having recently been adjusted from 10 ATR 72-500s to the latest glass-cockpit and more powerful ATR 72-600 version, two of which will be basic utility aircraft followed by six multi-role, torpedo-armed aircraft. They are being modified by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in a program called KMeltem 3. Sensors include Thales&#8217; own Ocean Master radar and optronics from local company Aselsan.

Dassault is currently marketing the Falcon 2000 as a maritime recon aircraft&#8211;an example was on display at Le Bourget&#8211;with the Amascos system. The two French companies are also working together on a further upgrade of the French Navy&#8217;s ATL2 that was previewed in the recent French defense white paper. &#8220;We expect to get the work,&#8221; said Pommelet.

most likely system for PN MPA requirements.


----------



## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *Thales Displays Full-Up Maritime Patrol System AIN Defense Perspective*
> 
> » June 21, 2013 by Chris Pocock
> 
> 
> An operator views screens that form part of the Thales Amascos system.
> 
> On show for the first time at the Paris Air Show this week was a complete Thales Amascos system, the French companys contender in the booming maritime surveillance market.
> 
> 
> The integrated system weighs less and requires less power than older systems, Thales claims. It ties together radar, Elint, electronic warfare, optronic and acoustic sensors, as well as communications systems and tactical datalinks. It has a modular architecture that enables it to be adapted to smaller aircraft performing surveillance from a single console only, to large aircraft for the anti-surface and anti-submarine missions, which will have four or five consoles. Each console position has two screens that are redundant and interchangeable. The system can be reconfigured during a mission, if the tactical coordinator desires, and this means the aircraft can stay airborne for longer, resulting in a potentially smaller fleet.
> 
> We are masters of most sensors, and we are also strong in maritime C2 architecture, where 50 navies already use our Tacticos system, Pierre Eric Pommelet, Thales executive vice president, defense mission systems, told AIN. But Thales will adapt Amascos to work with any sensor that a customer specifies, which is more likely to be in the communications and Elint domain, he added.
> 
> The company is also platform-agnostic. To date, Amascos has been integrated on Airbus Military CN-235s (Indonesia and Turkey); Alenia ATR 72s (Turkey); Beechcraft King Airs (Malaysia); Bombardier Dash 8s (UAE Air Force); Dassault Falcon 900s (Japan); and Gulfstream IVs (Turkey). The Turkish ATR 72 contract is currently under way, having recently been adjusted from 10 ATR 72-500s to the latest glass-cockpit and more powerful ATR 72-600 version, two of which will be basic utility aircraft followed by six multi-role, torpedo-armed aircraft. They are being modified by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in a program called KMeltem 3. Sensors include Thales own Ocean Master radar and optronics from local company Aselsan.
> 
> Dassault is currently marketing the Falcon 2000 as a maritime recon aircraftan example was on display at Le Bourgetwith the Amascos system. The two French companies are also working together on a further upgrade of the French Navys ATL2 that was previewed in the recent French defense white paper. We expect to get the work, said Pommelet.
> 
> most likely system for PN MPA requirements.



I think better for PAFAEW&Cs, Recon and transport , PN MPA and AEW&Cs and PIA transport, To go for license production of ATR-42&72-600/700 or do a similar JV with China...


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## nomi007

when will atr-72 touches ppakistani soil


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## fatman17

*Second ATR72-500 Delivered to Pakistan Navy*


Posted on: July 9th, 2013 



New Pakistan Navy ATR72-212A A2-ABS (c/n 788), a former Air Botswana aircraft, arriving on its delivery flight at Palma de Mallorca, Spain, yesterday from Las Palmas-Gran Canaria in the Canary Islands, where it had been refurbished. The aircraft is destined for PNS Mehran, where it will join another of the type that was delivered earlier this year. Javier Rodriguez

A SECOND ATR72-500 has been delivered to the Pakistan Navy. The former Air Botswana aircraft, ATR72-212A A2-ABS (c/n 788), was refurbished at Las Palmas-Gran Canaria in the Canary Islands. It departed from there yesterday, July 8, on its delivery flight, initially routing via Palma de Mallorca, Spain.

Although repainted in new grey military colours, it only wore a Pakistan Navy emblem on the forward fuselage and was otherwise unmarked, apart from the Botswana registration, which was temporarily taped back on.

As reported previously on AFD, another ATR-212A, EC-JAH (c/n 712), was delivered to the Pakistan Navy earlier this year. That too was refurbished at Las Palmas, from where it left on delivery on March 2 and arrived at Pakistan Naval Base Mehran two days later. 

AFD-Dave Allport


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## Jango

@fatman17, what's the latest on the MPA retrofit? Are plans on hold right now?

And any news about the serial number given to them?


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> @fatman17, what's the latest on the MPA retrofit? Are plans on hold right now?
> 
> And any news about the serial number given to them?



the retrofit could be in 1-2 years time. first there is the asimillation of the crews, then they have 2 options.
1. install the MPA equipment from F-27's to ATR's. if that is not possible then
2. MELTEM-II or III


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## Windjammer

*
Pakistan Navy's second ATR-72*

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

what are specifications of atr-72 mpa
can we compare it with p-3c Orion?


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## XYON

PN at this time lacks funds for the conversion of the ATR72 in MPA platforms. It will be around 3-4 years before they can even think of a full conversion project by any vendor.


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## Dr. Strangelove

cant both are different type of aircrafts 

p-3c was specially designed for maritime petrol 
while atr-72 is an airliner


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## Neptune

nomi007 said:


> what are specifications of atr-72 mpa
> can we compare it with p-3c Orion?



as PN's gonna operate ATR-72/212:

Well Orion comes with a larger payload (but most of the designated armaments are retired from the service), better range, better climbing rate than ATR.

While ATR's payload is smaller than the Orion. But has more modern armament. Parly equal in systems when compared to the most advanced P-3 that the US has. But it uses European systems such as Thales. It has a better engine when compared the aircraft body.

And here's my question everybody, the military variant is based on ATR-72/500 but why PN went with ATR-72/212 instead of going with 500MP like Italy, Turkey did. Thx.

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## XYON

Neptune said:


> as PN's gonna operate ATR-72/212:
> 
> And here's my question everybody, the military variant is based on ATR-72/500 but why PN went with ATR-72/212 instead of going with 500MP like Italy, Turkey did. Thx.



BECAUSE, a user ATR72/500 is more expensive then a used ATR72/212 not to even think about buying new ones!!

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## nomi007

what is basic purpose of purchasing ATR-72


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## Neptune

nomi007 said:


> what is basic purpose of purchasing ATR-72



to enlarge/upgrade the aerial ASW capabilities of PN.


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## Windjammer




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## nomi007

when they are arriving


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## Super Falcon

imran bhai why one i say go for mirages from qatar or uae with a heavy pumch what these atr do in war just for another vip visits international and domestic more probleum for naval finance atr for vip use we dont need we need serious punch pakistan navy are not serious getting new helis which we are needed the most heay lifter helis we need but they are more serious for luxorous atr

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## Inception-06

Super Falcon said:


> imran bhai why one i say go for mirages from qatar or uae with a heavy pumch what these atr do in war just for another vip visits international and domestic more probleum for naval finance atr for vip use we dont need we need serious punch pakistan navy are not serious getting new helis which we are needed the most heay lifter helis we need but they are more serious for luxorous atr



They could not safe the P3C Orions, and AWACS at Kamar but buying more and more Aircrafts of this Type. What they need are Air defence Ships !


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## Nishan_101

Buddies, I think PN has done some wrong decision in the past like not acquiring ATR 500 Series as MPA with weapons load under fuselage and under wings:
11 ATR-72 MPA
11 ATR-42 MPA

Although use them when we need it but concentrate more on UAVs operation and Satellite Watch over Arabian sea and on Indian Ocean.


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## nomi007

both of art-72 reached pakistan express news


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## nomi007

The Pakistan Navy Thursday inducted two ATR-72 aircraft in its fleet as part of an ongoing programme to enhance its operational capabilities, officials said.

The turboprop aircraft, equipped with collision avoidance system and semi-glass cockpit instrumentation, were inducted during a ceremony held at PNS Mehran base in this southern port city.

The naval chief, Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila, was the chief guest at the event.

The induction of the aircraft is being seen as a "giant leap forward in accelerating the capabilities of the Pakistan Navy" and they will provide a "low cost solution to maritime operations at sea", a spokesman said.

Sandila said the navy was involved in countering terrorism and arms and human smuggling, which have led to focused maritime security operations.

"These clear and present dangers demand a timely response and an enhancement in capabilities, in order to match the changing maritime paradigm," he said.

Other officials said the navy had inducted modified P3C Orion surveillance aircraft and Z9 anti-surface warfare helicopters and established an unmanned aerial vehicle squadron.


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## Donatello

Okay so if PN has inducted these quite quickly, then i am assuming they have already selected a maritime package to be installed on them? Though, they might not have the long boon at the back for the MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector), as on the P3C orions?


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## nomi007

still did not publish any video or picture
Allah Pk inko dushmanoo se mehfooz rakhe.AMEEN


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## Zarvan

@Imran Khan what are the used for and can they fire something ?


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## nomi007




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## alibaz

*Two aircrafts inducted in Pakistan Navy fleet*

KARACHI (Online): Pakistan Navy has inducted two state of the art ATR-72 aircraft in its fleet to augment effectiveness and enhance its operational flexibility and reach.

An impressive induction ceremony was held at PNS MEHRAN, Thursday. Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila was the chief guest.

ATRs are modern and widely operated turboprop platforms equipped with state of the art Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS), Auto pilot, semi glass cockpit instrumentation and high efficiency 6 bladed propellers.

Average ground speed of the aircraft is 250 knots with an endurance of about 6 hours. The induction of these aircrafts, being considered as a giant leap forward in accelerating the capabilities of PN Arm, will provide a low cost solution to Maritime Operations at sea.

Speaking on the occasion Chief of the Naval Staff said that at sea we are entrusted with the added responsibilities of countering terrorism including drugs, arms and human smuggling which has led to more focused maritime security operations.

These clear and present dangers demand a timely response and an enhancement in capabilities, in order to match the changing maritime paradigm. Air arm is being transformed to remain at par with continual changing threat. Integration of Pakistan Upgrade Programme (PUP), modified P3Cs and Z9 Anti Surface warfare helicopters in Fleet operations, addition of new warfare dimension of unmanned aerial vehicles as an established UAV Squadron and now the induction of ATR-72 are the steps towards the attachment of national objectives and international obligations.

Veteran Naval Aviators, Pakistan Navy Flag Officers and civilian and military dignitaries attended the ceremony. 

Dunya News: Pakistan:-Two aircrafts inducted in Pakistan Navy fleet...


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## nomi007

alibaz said:


> *Two aircrafts inducted in Pakistan Navy fleet*
> 
> KARACHI (Online): Pakistan Navy has inducted two state of the art ATR-72 aircraft in its fleet to augment effectiveness and enhance its operational flexibility and reach.
> 
> An impressive induction ceremony was held at PNS MEHRAN, Thursday. Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila was the chief guest.
> 
> ATRs are modern and widely operated turboprop platforms equipped with state of the art Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS), Auto pilot, semi glass cockpit instrumentation and high efficiency 6 bladed propellers.
> 
> Average ground speed of the aircraft is 250 knots with an endurance of about 6 hours. The induction of these aircrafts, being considered as a giant leap forward in accelerating the capabilities of PN Arm, will provide a low cost solution to Maritime Operations at sea.
> 
> Speaking on the occasion Chief of the Naval Staff said that at sea we are entrusted with the added responsibilities of countering terrorism including drugs, arms and human smuggling which has led to more focused maritime security operations.
> 
> These clear and present dangers demand a timely response and an enhancement in capabilities, in order to match the changing maritime paradigm. Air arm is being transformed to remain at par with continual changing threat. Integration of Pakistan Upgrade Programme (PUP), modified P3Cs and Z9 Anti Surface warfare helicopters in Fleet operations, addition of new warfare dimension of unmanned aerial vehicles as an established UAV Squadron and now the induction of ATR-72 are the steps towards the attachment of national objectives and international obligations.
> 
> Veteran Naval Aviators, Pakistan Navy Flag Officers and civilian and military dignitaries attended the ceremony.
> 
> Dunya News: Pakistan:-Two aircrafts inducted in Pakistan Navy fleet...


oper pasto te nai likhi hoi si


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## alibaz

nomi007 said:


> oper pasto te nai likhi hoi si



Nomi Bhai I think credits of this news were in Pashto which you didn't reproduce and it is pasted as product of poster.

Aik aur nay to naya thread hi chala dia hai
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/271422-two-atr-72-aircraft-inducted-pn-fleet.html#post4644479


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## Gryphon

*15 August, 2013*






KARACHI: Pakistan Navy has inducted two state of the art ATR-72 aircraft in its fleet to augment effectiveness and enhance its operational flexibility and reach.

An impressive induction ceremony was held at PNS Mehran on Thursday, says a Pakistan Navy press release.

It said that the Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila, was the Chief Guest on the occasion.

ATRs are modern and widely operated turboprop platforms equipped with state of the art Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS), Auto pilot, semi glass cockpit instrumentation and high efficiency 6 bladed propellers.

Average ground speed of the aircraft is 250 knots with an endurance of about 6 hours. The induction of these aircraft, being considered as a giant leap forward in accelerating the capabilities of PN Arm, will provide a low cost solution to Maritime Operations at sea.

Speaking on the occasion Chief of the Naval Staff said that "at sea we are entrusted with the added responsibilities of countering terrorism including drugs, arms and human smuggling which has led to more focused maritime security operations.

These clear and present dangers demand a timely response and an enhancement in capabilities, in order to match the changing maritime paradigm.

Air arm is being transformed to remain at par with continual changing threat. Integration of Pakistan Upgrade Program (PUP), modified P3Cs and Z9 Anti Surface warfare helicopters in Fleet operations, addition of new warfare dimension of unmanned aerial vehicles as an established UAV Squadron and now the induction of ATR-72 are the steps towards the attachment of national objectives and international obligations.

Veteran Naval Aviators, Pakistan Navy Flag Officers and civilian and military dignitaries attended the ceremony.

Two ATR-72 aircraft inducted in PN fleet

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## Chanakyaa

Congratulations !
Its a Nice Bird...


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## Chanakyaa

Congratulations !
Its a Nice Bird...


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## MJaa

*Read more: Pakistan Navy Inducts Two ATR-72 Twin Engine Turboprop Aircraft ~ Pakistan Military Review*


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## nomi007

alibaz said:


> Nomi Bhai I think credits of this news were in Pashto which you didn't reproduce and it is pasted as product of poster.
> 
> Aik aur nay to naya thread hi chala dia hai
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/271422-two-atr-72-aircraft-inducted-pn-fleet.html#post4644479


sorry bro
actually u just copy past my lines

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## Donatello

Somebody care to shed light on the 'Jadeed Tareen Technology' that these aircrafts come with?


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## A.Rafay

Donatello said:


> Somebody care to shed light on the 'Jadeed Tareen Technology' that these aircrafts come with?



'Jadeed Tareen Technology se lace' is the term our media uses for any ordinary technology.


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## alibaz

Donatello said:


> Somebody care to shed light on the 'Jadeed Tareen Technology' that these aircrafts come with?



They come with semi glass cockpit, twisted propeller blades and and and .... They fly very high


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## rohailmalhi

Pakistan Navy has inducted two ATR-72 aircraft in its fleet during an impressive ceremony held at PNS Mehran on Thursday. Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila, was the chief guest on the occasion.


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## air marshal



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## Imran Khan

good now 3 more and all fokkers will be stored forever


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## mr_cool

Pardon me for my ignorance, but can someone please shed some light as to the main purpose of these planes and what they offer etc..?
Thanks in advance


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## Gentelman

mr_cool said:


> Pardon me for my ignorance, but can someone please shed some light as to the main purpose of these planes and what they offer etc..?
> Thanks in advance



Do care to go through the thread bro before just jumping in it I hope you would got all info you need


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## Gentelman

Donatello said:


> Somebody care to shed light on the 'Jadeed Tareen Technology' that these aircrafts come with?



Just found something on Pakistan Military reviews&#8230;
"ATR-72 aircraft will augment the P-3C Orions
which have been modified under Pakistan
Upgrade Program (PUP). ATR-72 twin-engine
turboprop aircraft can be modifed for Anti
Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti Surface
Warfare (ASuW) missions and can be armed
with lightweight aerial torpedoes, anti-ship
missiles and depth charges."
but it is now i guess is useless and I don't think modefications would be such fast vut they would be first converted ibto reconcilliation platform by adding capable radar and maybe FLIR(i hope) then afterwards the weapon upgrades would be done&#8230;&#8230;


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## Nishan_101

air marshal said:


>



I hope that after sometime; PN will going to order the new series of ATR-72 and ATR-42 of 600 series and sell these two to any operator like Turkey.


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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> I hope that after sometime; PN will going to order the new series of ATR-72 and ATR-42 of 600 series and sell these two to any operator like Turkey.



and why would they do that?
these are new airplanes


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## Nishan_101

razgriz19 said:


> and why would they do that?
> these are new airplanes



They are not new ones; they are old ones ex-airliners.

I am sure if PN would like it then they might order some new ones or if China or any other country came up with their own aircraft.


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## Super Falcon

well misuse of funds only for commercial use better they should have utilized the money on New Helicopters for anti ship and sub role


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## Gentelman

Super Falcon said:


> well misuse of funds only for commercial use better they should have utilized the money on New Helicopters for anti ship and sub role



They are survillance platform which can be modified to carry light torpedos,deapth charges and antiship missiles


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## fatman17

they will have a dual purpose - transport and MPA. the MPA suite will either be the re-fit of equipment from F-27MPA's or a new avionics package eg from MILGEM.

and can be maintained by PIA Engineers


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## Neptune

Nishan_101 said:


> I hope that after sometime; PN will going to order the new series of ATR-72 and ATR-42 of 600 series and sell these two to any operator like Turkey.



Turkey already operates the ATR-72/600 ASW with TMUA and MPA roles . 2 in service and 8 to be recieved.


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## Rashid Mahmood

ATRs cannot be compared with the P-3Cs in any way.
The ATRs will be upgraded to a maritime package as were the F-27s.
The maritime package has not yet been finalized.

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## nomi007

ATR 72-212A (ex-EC-JAH)


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## Luftwaffe

Nishan_101 said:


> PN should only request US to get 8-10 P-3Cs and about 3-5 P-3Cs AEW&Cs.


 
Bhai are you going write the Check of $1.5b...

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Bhai are you going write the Check of $1.5b...


No, will shake the many trees of $100 bills in his backyard and they will fall out. Phir kya.. bori mein bharey aur Amrika bhej diye.

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## Luftwaffe

Oscar said:


> No, will shake the many trees of $100 bills in his backyard and they will fall out. Phir kya.. bori mein bharey aur Amrika bhej diye.


 
Trees like that should grow in all of our houses...darakhat a kalum hai Nishan sahib dey dain.

@Nishan_101 we all understand you want to see inventory of planes, ships, subs, tanks and what not but try to grow up you've been on this forum for a long time now you know the situation of Pakistan so try not to come up with Pak should buy 1000 this 10,000 that stay with reality.

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## Donatello

Rashid Mahmood said:


> ATRs cannot be compared with the P-3Cs in any way.
> The ATRs will be upgraded to a maritime package as were the F-27s.
> The maritime package has not yet been finalized.



How good is the F-27 maritime package?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Donatello said:


> How good is the F-27 maritime package?



Considering the platform, the maritime package is good. It supplements the Surveillance efforts of the LRMP's.
Radar, ESM, Sonobouy processor etc...


----------



## KingRaj

@Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Jango

Both IISS and Flight Global 2016 says that Pakistan Navy has retired it's last two Atlantiques and replaced them with ATR-72s.
Are they right?


----------



## Viper0011.

XYON said:


> A second hand ATR 72-500 is being sought by the Navy that has both passenger and cargo carrying facility.



What Pakistan needs to do, is to setup a JV with majority Chinese investment in building the Y-8 and Y-9 generations of aircraft in Pakistan. The same aircraft and chassis can be used to build medium sized commercial planes inside Pakistan for regular commercial travel (non-propeller of course), outside of her growing need for similar planes for her military use. That way, Pakistan can establish her own aviation industry all the way and manufacture these planes for much cheaper. And help the Chinese with exports through her own contacts (like it has been the case with the JFT). Never hurts to make more $$$$

http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2013/05/cockpit-of-y-9-turboprop-medium.html

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## Rashid Mahmood

KingRaj said:


> @Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Jango
> 
> Both IISS and Flight Global 2016 says that Pakistan Navy has retired it's last two Atlantiques and replaced them with ATR-72s.
> Are they right?



Yes Atlantiques have been retired, but they have been replaced by P-3Cs.
ATR's are in addition but in a different role.

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## fatman17

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yes Atlantiques have been retired, but they have been replaced by P-3Cs.
> ATR's are in addition but in a different role.



ATR are presently in transport and logistics role. When they are converted to maritime role is an open question at this time.

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## Cool_Soldier

ATR, something is better than nothing.


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## fatman17

KingRaj said:


> @Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Jango
> 
> Both IISS and Flight Global 2016 says that Pakistan Navy has retired it's last two Atlantiques and replaced them with ATR-72s.
> Are they right?



Atlantiques are retired but ATR'S are currently being used for transport and logistics role.


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## Cool_Soldier

Atlantiques were used for different role, I think mostly for servilience role. Am I right?

Are they replaced by ZDK 03 purchased from China?


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## Danish saleem

sorry to say brothers, as compere to the Navy of India, and the expansion of Indian Navy in last few years, and their future planning, our Navy have to face very difficult time.
Just relying on submarines, is not a good tactics at all.


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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> Atlantiques were used for different role, I think mostly for servilience role. Am I right?
> 
> Are they replaced by ZDK 03 purchased from China?



ZDK operated by PAF


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## Cool_Soldier

Yes, ZDK is part of PAF but might be same role as Mirage 5 operated by PAF and dedicated role for Navy.
ZDK are based in Karachi too.
Correct me if I am wrong!



Danish saleem said:


> sorry to say brothers, as compere to the Navy of India, and the expansion of Indian Navy in last few years, and their future planning, our Navy have to face very difficult time.
> Just relying on submarines, is not a good tactics at all.



Agree, that is why we are planning to expand our punch by using all available resources.
We rae still is defensive position. we need to come up with offensive punch against enemy lines in oceans.


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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> Yes, ZDK is part of PAF but might be same role as Mirage 5 operated by PAF and dedicated role for Navy.
> ZDK are based in Karachi too.
> Correct me if I am wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, that is why we are planning to expand our punch by using all available resources.
> We rae still is defensive position. we need to come up with offensive punch against enemy lines in oceans.



Correct but ZDK aew AEW aircraft


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## Super Falcon

Well same press release over and over again they are using money on joy ride plans


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## cloud4000

Danish saleem said:


> sorry to say brothers, as compere to the Navy of India, and the expansion of Indian Navy in last few years, and their future planning, our Navy have to face very difficult time.
> Just relying on submarines, is not a good tactics at all.



If it's about defending one's coastline, Pakistan has it much better than India. Pakistan doesn't need a huge navy to defend itself: combination of surface ships, submarines, and land based fighters should do the trick.

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## HRK



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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


>



so PN ATR 72 is just a transport plane. and they expect to find and hunt IN submarines with a transport plane with 70 passenger seats. what a joke


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> so PN ATR 72 is just a transport plane. and they expect to find and hunt IN submarines with a transport plane with 70 passenger seats. what a joke


only one of the 3 ATRs the other two are under conversion in Germany for MPA role


> The PN has also acquired *three second-hand ATR 72 *turboprop transports, and after several years of operations as utility aircraft the PN has contracted Rheinland Air Services in Germany to upgrade two of them to the MPA role. They will be modified with a *Leonardo Seaspray-7300 X-band airborne surveillance radar integrated into Aerodata AG’s Aerodata mission system*, by Rheinland Air Service at Monchengladbach, in Germany, *and being configured for the ASW role with torpedoes and depth charges.* Marshal Aerospace based in Cambridge in eastern England has been contracted to do the design work on the aircraft.
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2017/08/maritime-troubled-waters/

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

They should just refurbish the PIA planes reinstall new engines and redo wiring and use these for similar role as P8 with Chinese tracking systems installed on planes

Should be able to fit 4 Babur cruise missiles on these planes


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## Rashid Mahmood

Atlantic LRMP (Retired)
P-3C LRMP (Active)
ATR 72 MPA (Upgraded)

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## Falcon26

HRK said:


> only one of the 3 ATRs the other two are under conversion in Germany for MPA role



How credible is the AESA radar that's envisaged to be on the PN ATRs? I understand Bangladesh recently selected the same radar for illegal fishing etc detection. Is this radar good enough to hunt IN ships? @Quwa


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> How credible is the AESA radar that's envisaged to be on the PN ATRs? I understand Bangladesh recently selected the same radar for illegal fishing etc detection. Is this radar good enough to hunt IN ships? @Quwa


Leonardo didn't disclose the range, but the Seaspray is capable of tracking surface targets, including ships. In fact, Saab is packaging the Seaspray 7500E with the Swordfish MPA, which is advertised as being capable of AShW. The rest depends on the AShM the PN decides to pair with the ATR-72 MPA, assuming it intends to use it for AShW.

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## HRK

Falcon26 said:


> How credible is the AESA radar that's envisaged to be on the PN ATRs? I understand Bangladesh recently selected the same radar for illegal fishing etc detection. Is this radar good enough to hunt IN ships? @Quwa



not sure about BD's acquisition of this radar set (would appreciate if you could plz post link for further reading) but it seems a robust system 
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=172043&x=

it is the same radar which used by Italian airforce in their ATR-72MP


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> not sure about BD's acquisition of this radar set (would appreciate if you could plz post link for further reading) but it seems a robust system
> https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=172043&x=
> 
> it is the same radar which used by Italian airforce in their ATR-72MP


Bangladesh: http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/seaspray-500e-bangladesh

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## Falcon26

HRK said:


> not sure about BD's acquisition of this radar set (would appreciate if you could plz post link for further reading) but it seems a robust system
> https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=172043&x=
> 
> it is the same radar which used by Italian airforce in their ATR-72MP



There's an excellent new post by Quwa today 

http://quwa.org/2017/09/14/bangladesh-selects-leonardo-seaspray-aesa-radar-mpa/

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## HRK

@gambit can you plz explain technical information in this link 
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=172043&x=


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## Tank131

Turkey also used ATR-72 as a ASW/MPA (but i believe they use ATR-72 600 vs PN's 500). That being said, i would encourage PN to look at the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) which has the largest MAD of any ASW/MPA and has the capability to carry ~8 torpedoes or 8 AShM missiles. By itself it could overwhelm a ships anti-missile defense.


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## khanasifm

I think pn has 6 or 7 fokers in the fleet assuming atr will replace one fo one or it can be less as well as atr has better availability rate vs older 60s fokers 

Per recent news 2 atr are being converted to asw/asub warefare paltform But order is for 2 plus 2 in future so pn will eventually buy 4 plus what ever is the req for transport if pn goes one for one then 2/3 for transport

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## The-Hack

New ATR-72 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) for the Pakistan Navy


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well a great Initiative to improve our capacity specially after few P3 Orions were damaged in past the addition 2-3 ATR to do the recon work and few Torpedoes loaded re-equips our Navy

*Origional Capcity :* 10 P3 Orions

Damaged planes due to Terrorist (3 units lost)

*Recovered Capacity :* 7 P3 Orions + 3 ATR (Equiped with Senors and Torpedoes)


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think if we are trying to replace the Fokker , with alternative down the line the Bombardier's Marine platform is a wonderful option


*C4ISR Bombardier (Canadian Company) *
Has an ideal modern platform for marine

In today’s world, gaining vital information for military, government and civil organizations is critical. The unique combination of our aircraft’s performance features and spacious interiors, enable us to provide superior special mission platforms that make gathering intelligence around the world possible. From aerial surveillance over land and sea to battlefield communications management, or command and control of friendly forces in theater, we have the specialized solution to meet your challenge.
















Mean while Sword Fish , platform from Sweden is a great alternative for P3 Orion

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## volatile

What is this express delivery ?


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## Inception-06

volatile said:


> What is this express delivery ?



express means fast service!


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Tank131 said:


> Turkey also used ATR-72 as a ASW/MPA (but i believe they use ATR-72 600 vs PN's 500). That being said, i would encourage PN to look at the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) which has the largest MAD of any ASW/MPA and has the capability to carry ~8 torpedoes or 8 AShM missiles. By itself it could overwhelm a ships anti-missile defense.


If my memory serves me correctly Pakistan Navy is upgrading the ATR72-500 to ATR72-600.
The difference is in the Avionics and Engines most of the flight characteristics is the same.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ras-...-72-conversion-to-maritime-patrol-asw.438708/


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## TOPGUN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think if we are trying to replace the Fokker , with alternative down the line the Bombardier's Marine platform is a wonderful option
> 
> 
> *C4ISR Bombardier (Canadian Company) *
> Has an ideal modern platform for marine
> 
> In today’s world, gaining vital information for military, government and civil organizations is critical. The unique combination of our aircraft’s performance features and spacious interiors, enable us to provide superior special mission platforms that make gathering intelligence around the world possible. From aerial surveillance over land and sea to battlefield communications management, or command and control of friendly forces in theater, we have the specialized solution to meet your challenge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mean while Sword Fish , platform from Sweden is a great alternative for P3 Orion



Agreed great platform however, you guys need to understand that the PN P-3's aren't going anywhere for a very long time they have been upgraded as well.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Brazilian company also sells some Options
Easy to see if Pakistan was serious we could buildup a new 10 Unit Anti Submarine / Electronic Jammers with combinatin of some local research and development


*Embraer ERJ 140 *(18 Million Price Tag)






*Embraer ERJ 145* ($20 Millin Price Tag)






*Embraer Legacy 600 ($ 25 million)*






*Embraer 190 (A bigger platform 32 Million price Tag)*


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## volatile

Sir I can understand Express  ,what i mean was what type of weapon syytem


Ulla said:


> express means fast service!

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## fatman17

Too much rumour mongering going on.


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Too much rumour mongering going on.


Sir what sort of rumors ???


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## fatman17

HRK said:


> Sir what sort of rumors ???


Read the above posts

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## hassan1



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## khanasifm

Ulla said:


> express means fast service!



The yellow cover looks like protective cover for propellers so this looks like a torpedo and not depth charge


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