# Members Interview: Niaz



## WAJsal

@Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
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*The interview:*

*Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
*
Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.

After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.

I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.

My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.

Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.

Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.

Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).

My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.

*Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*

Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.

I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.

I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.

There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.

First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.

Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.

Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.

In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.

Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.

After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.


There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.

First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.

Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.

Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.

Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.

A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.

4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.

5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.

6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.

I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.

It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.

Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.

*Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
*
Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.

No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.

Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.


Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.

East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.

Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.

Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.

Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.

Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.

However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.

*Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*

Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.

I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.

In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.

*Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*

Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.

*Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of' 
*
Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.

Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.

For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.

Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.

*Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*

Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.

Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.

Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.

I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.

*Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*

Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.

Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.


Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.

In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.

I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.

My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.

Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.


I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.

To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.

Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.

*Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
*
Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.

What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.

*Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*

Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.

To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.

I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.

I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.


Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.

The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.

Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.

The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.

There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.

Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.


I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?

*Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*

Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.

Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.

But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.

*Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*

Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.

Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.

There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.

*Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*

Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.

*Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *

Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.


*Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *

Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.

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## WAJsal

@WebMaster ,@Horus ,@Oscar ,@TaimiKhan ,@Manticore ,@waz ,@Jungibaaz ,@Emmie ,@Slav Defence ,@Shotgunner51 ,@ahojunk ,@Fenrir ,@Levina ,@Joe Shearer ,@scorpionx ,@MilSpec ,@jbgt90 ,@anant_s ,@AUSTERLITZ ,@nair ,@saiyan0321 ,@Gufi ,@TankMan ,@HRK ,@Arsalan ,@fatman17 ,@notorious_eagle ,@abdulbarijan ,@The Eagle ,@That Guy ,@The Sandman ,@Moonlight ,@Chauvinist ,@Spring Onion ,@django ,@Mr.Meap ,@PARIKRAMA ,@Khafee ,@Neutron ,@Zibago ,@Chinese-Dragon ,@Icarus ,@Zibago ,@Armstrong ..............

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## Shotgunner51

It's an excellent opportunity for all PDFers, old and new, to get to learn more about such a distinguished figure as @niaz.

Marvelous piece of work by @WAJsal @Zaki!

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## Spring Onion

Speechless. What an honor and pleasure to read and have Sir Niaz on this forum. have bookmarked this to read again and again. 

Thank you.

@WAJsal i would love to see Sir 
@Joe Shearer get interviewed next.

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## The Sandman

As shogun said it's an excellent opportunity for us younger ones to learn a lot from him to get to know what was the environment in our country during all those events that happened in our country. Everyone share it as much as you can. Thank you so much for this interview Sir @niaz.

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## pak-marine

Impressed @niaz sahab .. no wonder your posts are so enlightening .. bless you sir .. respect!

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## VCheng

> it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true.





> However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism.





> Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth.





> CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation



Thank you for speaking out the blunt truth. I hope that PDF as a whole is able to comprehend the wisdom behind these comments.

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## Hyde

Thank you for creating this thread Wajsal. Finally our hard work paid off

Special thanks to our honourable members who helped us prepare questions and double thanks to you for coming up such idea and working hard to ensure it materialises



Spring Onion said:


> Speechless. What an honor and pleasure to read and have Sir Niaz on this forum. have bookmarked this to read again and again.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> @WAJsal i would love to see Sir
> @Joe Shearer get interviewed next.


Yes Joe Shearer is also in my mind. Please don't worry

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## Spring Onion

Zaki said:


> Thank you for creating this thread Wajsal. Finally our hard work paid off
> 
> Special thanks to our honourable members who helped us prepare questions
> 
> 
> Yes Joe Shearer is also in my mind. Please don't worry


Thank You Zaki and the Team for this Great effort and wonderful feature.

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## YeBeWarned

Nice Initiative ..  whoever had this idea, very good thinking .

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## The Eagle

Indeed, a pleasure to read and gain of knowledge and information. A beautifully presented conversation and the way @niaz Sahib inked it, it's like read & read again. Thank you so much for your time Niaz Sahib and @WAJsal as well as @Zaki for the great work.

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## T-123456

A true realist sir Niaz,respect.

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## Safriz

I been following Niaz for a Long time,now that i know more about the guy,i can carry out my Diabolical evil plan (Joking)

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## Jungibaaz

Great read, thanks for taking the time to conduct and publish this @niaz @WAJsal and @Zaki.

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## django

@WAJsal I and others on PDF would certainly appreciate interviews of erudite PDF bloggers like @Joe Shearer @blain2 @Xeric and @Kaptaan

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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> @WAJsal I and others on PDF would certainly appreciate interviews of erudite PDF bloggers like @Joe Shearer @blain2 @Xeric and @Kaptaan



I am not fit to polish the shoes of Niaz Sahib. I agree with your other choices, though.



Spring Onion said:


> Speechless. What an honor and pleasure to read and have Sir Niaz on this forum. have bookmarked this to read again and again.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> @WAJsal i would love to see Sir
> @Joe Shearer get interviewed next.



My sincere thanks. But this level, Niaz Sahib's level, is several levels above me.

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## saiyan0321

Spring Onion said:


> Speechless. What an honor and pleasure to read and have Sir Niaz on this forum. have bookmarked this to read again and again.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> @WAJsal i would love to see Sir
> @Joe Shearer get interviewed next.



Yes I also professionals like @Joe Shearer should be next along with our other think tanks. Could learn a lot from them and always a delight to read their posts.

@WAJsal great interview. @niazi posts are those where irrespective of the topic you stop and read it thoroughly no matter how long bcz you will always learn something. Massive realist and his posts on discovery of natural resources are great.

I have often stated that those that were there in that time, place and country know more about that time, place and country than those that were not.

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## livingdead

nice thread... it was a bit long for people like me(with short attention span)...

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## Joe Shearer

saiyan0321 said:


> Yes I also professionals like @Joe Shearer should be next along with our other think tanks. Could learn a lot from them and always a delight to read their posts.
> 
> @WAJsal great interview. @niazi posts are those where irrespective of the topic you stop and read it thoroughly no matter how long bcz you will always learn something. Massive realist and his posts on discovery of natural resources are great.



How I wish you were right, and that I was fit material for an interview, or to be mentioned in the same breath as Niaz Sahib. Let me put you to an infallible test; read a post by Niaz Sahib, any post, and then read mine. You will see why he is on a level of his own.

@WAJsal 
@Zaki (strictly in alphabetical order!)

Words fail me. One of the most heart-warming pieces to have read, about a gentleman and an officer of the old school. Thank the blue sky above that he is still there to nudge us into line, to chastise our stupid moments, to gently lead us back into reason and logic, to tell us with unflinching truthfulness but with affection where we fall short, to show us what we can still do.

A single post by him is worth a whole brangling thread by the rest of us.

Please, Sirs, I want more (but please also ignore the misguided who have suggested unsuitable names; only Pakistani members should be interviewed, IMHO).

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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> I am not fit to polish the shoes of Niaz Sahib. I agree with your other choices, though.
> 
> 
> 
> My sincere thanks. But this level, Niaz Sahib's level, is several levels above me.


@Joe Shearer My dear chap you are way too modest and most certainly one of the brightest bloggers on PDF, no question about it.Kudos sir.

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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> @Joe Shearer My dear chap you are way too modest and most certainly one of the brightest bloggers on PDF, no question about it.Kudos sir.



An additional thing to be considered is that it is appropriate to select Pakistani members of eminence first, to be interviewed. I think that should come first; guests can be taken up, if they deserve it, later.

Just think of the positive influence of one interview with Niaz Sahib. Isn't it worth it to go on, on the same lines?

I say this with the utmost sincerity and strength of feeling. That is not to say that I do not very humbly thank those of you who have mentioned me, even though I disagree strongly.

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## saiyan0321

Joe Shearer said:


> How I wish you were right, and that I was fit material for an interview, or to be mentioned in the same breath as Niaz Sahib. Let me put you to an infallible test; read a post by Niaz Sahib, any post, and then read mine. You will see why he is on a level of his own.



I believe that each has his own story to share and teach. No doubt Niaz sahib is a level above many many posters here but in my personal view many posters hold their own expertise and knowledge and experience that others do not possess and together fill the gaps. For example @pakistani342 has amazing insight in afpak relations and he calls spade to spade highlighting the issues both nations have eith each other. He is another poster whose posts I always read.m bcz they carry great insight to the afpak problems and relations that many others lack. 


Joe Shearer said:


> Words fail me. One of the most heart-warming pieces to have read, about a gentleman and an officer of the old school. Thank the blue sky above that he is still there to nudge us into line, to chastise our stupid moments, to gently lead us back into reason and logic, to tell us with unflinching truthfulness but with affection where we fall short, to show us what we can still do.



There is not a word in that entire interview that I would disagree with. Everything is the blunt truth and he has very distinctly highlighted the two stages ( extremely different from each other) that Pakistan went through. The ore islamization period and post. Result is that the very same mullahs who hated Pakistan have hijacked it and I have seen islamists here stating that our founder wanted a no non Muslim land ignoring the speeches well recorded where he highlights minorities. Anyhow it was an amazing interview. 


Joe Shearer said:


> A single post by him is worth a whole brangling thread by the rest of us.
> 
> Please, Sirs, I want more (but please also ignore the misguided who have suggested unsuitable names; only Pakistani members should be interviewed, IMHO



Can't disagree with that. 

Completely disagreed. 

Utterly disagreed. To make a rule where only Pakistani members are interviewed would blatantly and openly be akin to spiting on the efforts and knowledge shared here by our non Pakistani residents. An interview of esteemed members does not see distinction of countries.

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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> An additional thing to be considered is that it is appropriate to select Pakistani members of eminence first, to be interviewed. I think that should come first; guests can be taken up, if they deserve it, later.


Irrespective of what side of the Radcliffe line one belongs too, if they have something informative to say, I for one would definitely like to here their stories.Kudos Joe

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## Joe Shearer

saiyan0321 said:


> I believe that each has his own story to share and teach. No doubt Niaz sahib is a level above many many posters here but in my personal view many posters hold their own expertise and knowledge and experience that others do not possess and together fill the gaps. For example @pakistani342 has amazing insight in afpak relations and he calls spade to spade highlighting the issues both nations have eith each other. He is another poster whose posts I always read.m bcz they carry great insight to the afpak problems and relations that many others lack.
> 
> 
> There is not a word in that entire interview that I would disagree with. Everything is the blunt truth and he has very distinctly highlighted the two stages ( extremely different from each other) that Pakistan went through. The ore islamization period and post. Result is that the very same mullahs who hated Pakistan have hijacked it and I have seen islamists here stating that our founder wanted a no non Muslim land ignoring the speeches well recorded where he highlights minorities. Anyhow it was an amazing interview.
> 
> 
> Can't disagree with that.
> 
> Completely disagreed.
> 
> Utterly disagreed. To make a rule where only Pakistani members are interviewed would blatantly and openly be akin to spiting on the efforts and knowledge shared here by our non Pakistani residents. An interview of esteemed members does not see distinction of countries.



It is good to see the candour and lucid transparency of your views; although I might quibble with one detail or the other, I cannot help gaining great comfort from the spirit displayed. 

I will make it a point to follow @pakistani342 in future, once I start following the mails here regularly, once again; unfortunately, a mixture of discouragement and plain struggle for existence has kept me off PDF for several weeks.

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## Winchester

Delightful read.

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## Joe Shearer

From a private comment by an esteemed member



> When the forum had become a picnic garden for useless, hateful, abusive, incendiary comments, this thread of Niaj Sir's point of views on several chapters of Pakistan's history and present scenario came as a fresh air from the mountains.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/...



Very well said. The member's place of origin is evident in his rendition of the interviewee's name.

Thank you, @Zaki ; thank you, @WAJsal .

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## Sugarcane

Other than @Joe Shearer @blain2 @Xeric, I would request to include @Solomon2, @Syed.Ali.Haider to list. They maybe controversial and most of the time people don't agree with them but still there is a lot which we can learn from them. I personally appreciate them for their ability to keep cool and being respectful despite being ridiculed, I am trying to adopt this great characteristic of them.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Great interview and great initiative by @WAJsal .
The answers were a balance of nostalgia,patriotism,humility and hard nosed realism.Great read.We can all learn.

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## T-123456

Joe Shearer said:


> I am not fit to polish the shoes of Niaz Sahib. I agree with your other choices, though.


Come on @Joe Shearer ,people dont call your name for nothing.
Very interested in your life story and your view on matters @WAJsal , @Zaki

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## niaz

Joe Shearer said:


> I am not fit to polish the shoes of Niaz Sahib. I agree with your other choices, though.
> 
> 
> 
> My sincere thanks. But this level, Niaz Sahib's level, is several levels above me.




Honourable Joe Shearer.

I am humbled by the praise and the kind words. We are all fallible and unless divinely inspired, mortal humans have weakness and liable to make erroneous judgments.

I am neither humble nor arrogant by nature, but please believe me I am not worthy of the high esteem that you hold me in. I am just a reasonably well educated and well-read person whose views have been tempered by the age and the experience of associating with the intelligent persons of different nationalities; hence I value a compassionate “Human Being” or an exceptionally talented one; higher than a “Pious” one. For example in my opinion, Adus Sattar Edhi, Kailash Satyarthi, Abdus Salam & CV Raman were better human beings than Dalai Lama and Mother Teresa.

In my humble opinion, you are a professional and equal to anyone; if not first among equals; in your field of expertise. It would be an honour and a pleasure to gleam a vista of your life & experience. However, please don’t feel pressurized and if you feel inconvenienced in any way whatsoever, I for one would respect you decision.

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## livingdead

django said:


> @Joe Shearer My dear chap you are way too modest and most certainly one of the brightest bloggers on PDF, no question about it.Kudos sir.


you must be the first person to accuse joe of being modest...

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## Zarvan

WAJsal said:


> @Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
> Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
> It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
> Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The interview:*
> 
> *Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
> *
> Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.
> 
> After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.
> 
> I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.
> 
> My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.
> 
> Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.
> 
> Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.
> 
> Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).
> 
> My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*
> 
> Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.
> 
> I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.
> 
> I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.
> 
> There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.
> 
> First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.
> 
> Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.
> 
> Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.
> 
> In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.
> 
> Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.
> 
> After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.
> 
> First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.
> 
> Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.
> 
> Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.
> 
> Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.
> 
> A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.
> 
> 4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.
> 
> 5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.
> 
> 6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.
> 
> I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.
> 
> It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.
> 
> Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.
> 
> *Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
> *
> Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.
> 
> No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.
> 
> Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.
> 
> 
> Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.
> 
> East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.
> 
> Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.
> 
> Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.
> 
> Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.
> 
> However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*
> 
> Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.
> 
> I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.
> 
> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.
> 
> *Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*
> 
> Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.
> 
> *Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of'
> *
> Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.
> 
> Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.
> 
> For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.
> 
> Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.
> 
> *Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*
> 
> Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.
> 
> Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.
> 
> Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.
> 
> I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.
> 
> *Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*
> 
> Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.
> 
> Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.
> 
> In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.
> 
> I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.
> 
> My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.
> 
> Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.
> 
> 
> I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.
> 
> To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.
> 
> Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.
> 
> *Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
> *
> Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.
> 
> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.
> 
> *Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*
> 
> Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.
> 
> To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.
> 
> I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.
> 
> I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.
> 
> 
> Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.
> 
> The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.
> 
> Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.
> 
> The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.
> 
> There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.
> 
> Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.
> 
> 
> I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?
> 
> *Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*
> 
> Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.
> 
> Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.
> 
> But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.
> 
> *Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*
> 
> Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.
> 
> Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.
> 
> There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.
> 
> *Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> *Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *
> 
> Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.
> 
> 
> *Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *
> 
> Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.



I like this initiative. And great to see interview of one distinguish member. Hope to see more soon

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## punit

WAJsal said:


> @WebMaster ,@Horus ,@Oscar ,@TaimiKhan ,@Manticore ,@waz ,@Jungibaaz ,@Emmie ,@Slav Defence ,@Shotgunner51 ,@ahojunk ,@Fenrir ,@Levina ,@Joe Shearer ,@scorpionx ,@MilSpec ,@jbgt90 ,@anant_s ,@AUSTERLITZ ,@nair ,@saiyan0321 ,@Gufi ,@TankMan ,@HRK ,@Arsalan ,@fatman17 ,@notorious_eagle ,@abdulbarijan ,@The Eagle ,@That Guy ,@The Sandman ,@Moonlight ,@Chauvinist ,@Spring Onion ,@django ,@Mr.Meap ,@PARIKRAMA ,@Khafee ,@Neutron ,@Zibago ,@Chinese-Dragon ,@Icarus ,@Zibago ,@Armstrong ..............


saved for future reference ! 

*Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.

Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.*

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/members-interview-niaz.473879/#ixzz4WaLPZfc0

dont hate for saying this .. but some one seriously take an interview with @MastanKhan .. the guy has something what we call X faCTOR. very difficult to explain but i m sure his words will be help the management professional a lot.

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## Moon

A realist view of country's situation throughout it's history. I completely agree with Mr. Niaz's view on CPEC and his views on Ayub's era too are accurate. All in all, a refreshing change from the now increasingly saturating articles flying about everywhere.

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## Jugger

This was an exceptional read for me and conforms to my understanding of the subcontinent and enriching it.
I really liked your analysis that modern education and skill oriented learning will solve many problems faced by today's Pakistan.

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## Blue Marlin

niaz said:


> Honourable Joe Shearer.
> 
> I am humbled by the praise and the kind words. We are all fallible and unless divinely inspired, mortal humans have weakness and liable to make erroneous judgments.
> 
> I am neither humble nor arrogant by nature, but please believe me I am not worthy of the high esteem that you hold me in. I am just a reasonably well educated and well-read person whose views have been tempered by the age and the experience of associating with the intelligent persons of different nationalities; hence I value a compassionate “Human Being” or an exceptionally talented one; higher than a “Pious” one. For example in my opinion, Adus Sattar Edhi, Kailash Satyarthi, Abdus Salam & CV Raman were better human beings than Dalai Lama and Mother Teresa.
> 
> In my humble opinion, you are a professional and equal to anyone; if not first among equals; in your field of expertise. It would be an honour and a pleasure to gleam a vista of your life & experience. However, please don’t feel pressurized and if you feel inconvenienced in any way whatsoever, I for one would respect you decision.


i have a question if you dont mind me asking.

you said Musharraf and ayyub were one of Pakistanis greatest leaders. the latter i agree with but don't you think the former (Musharraf) is a bit controversial? i would love to hear on why you think Musharraf was a good leader.
ansl also would it be a good idea for him to be pakistan next pm? (hypothetically)

thanks in advance


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## RISING SUN

WAJsal said:


> @Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
> Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
> It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
> Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The interview:*
> 
> *Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
> *
> Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.
> 
> After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.
> 
> I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.
> 
> My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.
> 
> Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.
> 
> Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.
> 
> Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).
> 
> My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*
> 
> Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.
> 
> I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.
> 
> I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.
> 
> There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.
> 
> First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.
> 
> Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.
> 
> Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.
> 
> In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.
> 
> Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.
> 
> After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.
> 
> First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.
> 
> Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.
> 
> Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.
> 
> Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.
> 
> A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.
> 
> 4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.
> 
> 5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.
> 
> 6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.
> 
> I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.
> 
> It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.
> 
> Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.
> 
> *Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
> *
> Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.
> 
> No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.
> 
> Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.
> 
> 
> Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.
> 
> East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.
> 
> Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.
> 
> Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.
> 
> Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.
> 
> However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*
> 
> Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.
> 
> I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.
> 
> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.
> 
> *Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*
> 
> Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.
> 
> *Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of'
> *
> Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.
> 
> Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.
> 
> For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.
> 
> Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.
> 
> *Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*
> 
> Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.
> 
> Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.
> 
> Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.
> 
> I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.
> 
> *Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*
> 
> Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.
> 
> Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.
> 
> In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.
> 
> I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.
> 
> My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.
> 
> Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.
> 
> 
> I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.
> 
> To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.
> 
> Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.
> 
> *Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
> *
> Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.
> 
> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.
> 
> *Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*
> 
> Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.
> 
> To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.
> 
> I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.
> 
> I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.
> 
> 
> Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.
> 
> The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.
> 
> Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.
> 
> The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.
> 
> There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.
> 
> Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.
> 
> 
> I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?
> 
> *Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*
> 
> Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.
> 
> Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.
> 
> But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.
> 
> *Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*
> 
> Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.
> 
> Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.
> 
> There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.
> 
> *Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> *Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *
> 
> Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.
> 
> 
> *Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *
> 
> Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.


Even if I give unlimited thanks for such a gem of interview, it will be like drop of water in vast ocean. Since I started reading it, I knew I never wanted it to end. I don't have words to explain the deep respect for such a experienced person amongst us. Dear @niaz sir thanking you very-2 much for giving us the glimpse of shared past. Ye Dil mange more!!!

I will most definitely share it on my social pages.

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## niaz

Blue Marlin said:


> i have a question if you dont mine me asking.
> 
> you said Musharraf and ayyub were one of Pakistanis greatest leaders. the latter i agree with but don't you think the former (Musharraf) is a bit controversial? i would love to hear on why you think Musharraf was a good leader.
> ansl also would it be a good idea for him to be pakistan next pm? (hypothetically)
> 
> thanks in advance


 
Hon Sir,

Please I am being misunderstood. Here is what I said.

Quote
*
Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*

Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.

UnQuote

I am not saying that these two were one of the 'Greatest'. I have said best after Jinnah. IMHO Pakistan never had a ‘Great’ leader. If the Quaid had lived long enough may be? But his tenure was too short for him to be classified as Great by the historians.

The best and the worst is always a very subjective term because each person applies different criteria. My ex- Chartered Accountant, originally a Lahori; considers Zia ul Haq as the best leader ever because in his opinion Zia defeated might of the USSR. (He is my ex Tax accountant because he retired and sold his practice. He was a good accountant and I miss him).

Musharraf must have been doing something right because during 8 years from 1997 to 2007, Pakistan’s economy grew at more than 6% per year. I remember going to Islamabad and Lahore in 2005 and I had difficulty finding vacancy in the Islamabad Marriott and Pearl Continental Lahore.

Besides, these were my opinions and any one is welcome to disagree.

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## Blue Marlin

niaz said:


> Hon Sir,
> 
> Please I am being misunderstood. Here is what I said.
> 
> Quote
> *
> Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> UnQuote
> 
> I am not saying that these two were one of the 'Greatest'. I have said best after Jinnah. IMHO Pakistan never had a ‘Great’ leader. If the Quaid had lived long enough may be? But his tenure was too short for him to be classified as Great by the historians.
> 
> The best and the worst is always a very subjective term because each person applies different criteria. My ex- Chartered Accountant, originally a Lahori; considers Zia ul Haq as the best leader ever because in his opinion Zia defeated might of the USSR. (He is my ex Tax accountant because he retired and sold his practice. He was a good accountant and I miss him).
> 
> Musharraf must have been doing something right because during 8 years from 1997 to 2007, Pakistan’s economy grew at more than 6% per year. I remember going to Islamabad and Lahore in 2005 and I had difficulty finding vacancy in the Islamabad Marriott and Pearl Continental Lahore.
> 
> Besides, these were my opinions and any one is welcome to disagree.


best, great. near enough the same thing, it was unfortunate jinnah died so soon after pakistan's creation
i under stand the economy grew at 6% but what i think that made him lose his credibility is during his tenure when the ttp was born and caused hell in pakistan.


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## Blue Marlin

@WAJsal what about @Bilal Khan 777 ? he'd be great

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## Kambojaric

Great initiative. Thanks for interviewing such an esteemed member

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## Joe Shearer

RISING SUN said:


> Even if I give unlimited thanks for such a gem of interview, it will be like drop of water in vast ocean. Since I started reading it, I knew I never wanted it to end. I don't have words to explain the deep respect for such a experienced person amongst us. Dear @niaz sir thanking you very-2 much for giving us the glimpse of shared past. Ye Dil mange more!!!
> 
> I will most definitely share it on my social pages.



Nicely said. Few of us have this kind of moral courage.



hinduguy said:


> you must be the first person to accuse joe of being modest...



Only on this single issue, I hasten to reassure you!

I promise you that I will remain as obnoxious to you as ever. Be of good cheer.

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## Skywalker

It was pleasure reading about you sir, and congrats to @WAJsal for initiating this.

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## WAJsal

@WebMaster ,@Horus ,@Side-Winder , can we please have this shared on our social media pages? thank you.

I would request all to go further in detail and ask more questions from Niaz bhai if possible.


RISING SUN said:


> Even if I give unlimited thanks for such a gem of interview, it will be like drop of water in vast ocean. Since I started reading it, I knew I never wanted it to end. I don't have words to explain the deep respect for such a experienced person amongst us. Dear @niaz sir thanking you very-2 much for giving us the glimpse of shared past. Ye Dil mange more!!!


Thank you for perfectly summarizing my thoughts. It is the very reason i never bothered editing the initial draft, it would be a crime to cancel out content. Kudos to everyone for their efforts and Niaz bhai for finding the time.
@Kambojaric ,@save_ghenda ,@member.exe ,@krash ,@unleashed , in case you miss it.

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## krash

WAJsal said:


> @WebMaster ,@Horus ,@Side-Winder , can we please have this shared on our social media pages? thank you.
> 
> I would request all to go further in detail and ask more questions from Niaz bhai if possible.
> 
> Thank you for perfectly summarizing my thoughts. It is the very reason i never bothered editing the initial draft, it would be a crime to cancel out content. Kudos to everyone for their efforts and Niaz bhai for finding the time.
> @Kambojaric ,@save_ghenda ,@member.exe ,@krash ,@unleashed , in case you miss it.



I did miss it. Thanks for tagging me. This must not be missed.


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## WebMaster

Great read like most of your posts. 

Thanks for sharing!

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## pakistani342

saiyan0321 said:


> I believe that each has his own story to share and teach. No doubt Niaz sahib is a level above many many posters here but in my personal view many posters hold their own expertise and knowledge and experience that others do not possess and together fill the gaps. For example @pakistani342 has amazing insight in afpak relations and he calls spade to spade highlighting the issues both nations have eith each other. He is another poster whose posts I always read.m bcz they carry great insight to the afpak problems and relations that many others lack.
> 
> 
> There is not a word in that entire interview that I would disagree with. Everything is the blunt truth and he has very distinctly highlighted the two stages ( extremely different from each other) that Pakistan went through. The ore islamization period and post. Result is that the very same mullahs who hated Pakistan have hijacked it and I have seen islamists here stating that our founder wanted a no non Muslim land ignoring the speeches well recorded where he highlights minorities. Anyhow it was an amazing interview.
> 
> 
> Can't disagree with that.
> 
> Completely disagreed.
> 
> Utterly disagreed. To make a rule where only Pakistani members are interviewed would blatantly and openly be akin to spiting on the efforts and knowledge shared here by our non Pakistani residents. An interview of esteemed members does not see distinction of countries.



Thank you for your kind words 

I'm taking a hiatus from Afghanistan -- these days I kinda feel sorry for Afghanistan and Afghans 

It looks like one round of the game has come to an end -- a new one seems about to begin :-/ -- more misery more misery

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## django

@WAJsal How about an interview with @Nilgiri , a very talented and bright individual indeed.Kudos

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## Nilgiri

django said:


> @WAJsal How about an interview with @Nilgiri , a very talented and bright individual indeed.Kudos



Wow excellent thread. Thanks for tagging me here, I am reading it slowly now heh. Lots of good stuff.

There are like dozens of members that should be interviewed like this before me I feel.

I would like to give a special thanks to @niaz for being so detailed in his responses, it felt like I am in a different era reading them. Also really excellent initiative by @WAJsal, @Zaki and whoever else involved and great question prep/flow!

I would like to see more of this kind of quality efforts on PDF to make a good counter-current from the usual threads that are populating the forum more and more it seems.

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## unleashed

What a great effort boys. I must say it was one of the best reads of PDF since i join this forum. I hope you guys will keep up the good work and interview some more PDF veteran. I am not a questionnaire expert, however, i would suggest you to include some more questions regarding contemporary issues/developments of Pakistan. As you did include question regarding CPEC. 

@WAJsal , @Zaki

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## saaju

Excellent interview and initiative ..


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## sarosh yakoob mehdi

WAJsal said:


> @Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
> Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
> It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
> Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The interview:*
> 
> *Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
> *
> Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.
> 
> After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.
> 
> I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.
> 
> My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.
> 
> Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.
> 
> Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.
> 
> Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).
> 
> My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*
> 
> Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.
> 
> I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.
> 
> I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.
> 
> There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.
> 
> First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.
> 
> Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.
> 
> Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.
> 
> In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.
> 
> Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.
> 
> After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.
> 
> First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.
> 
> Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.
> 
> Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.
> 
> Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.
> 
> A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.
> 
> 4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.
> 
> 5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.
> 
> 6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.
> 
> I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.
> 
> It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.
> 
> Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.
> 
> *Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
> *
> Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.
> 
> No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.
> 
> Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.
> 
> 
> Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.
> 
> East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.
> 
> Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.
> 
> Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.
> 
> Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.
> 
> However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*
> 
> Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.
> 
> I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.
> 
> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.
> 
> *Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*
> 
> Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.
> 
> *Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of'
> *
> Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.
> 
> Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.
> 
> For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.
> 
> Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.
> 
> *Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*
> 
> Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.
> 
> Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.
> 
> Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.
> 
> I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.
> 
> *Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*
> 
> Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.
> 
> Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.
> 
> In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.
> 
> I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.
> 
> My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.
> 
> Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.
> 
> 
> I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.
> 
> To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.
> 
> Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.
> 
> *Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
> *
> Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.
> 
> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.
> 
> *Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*
> 
> Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.
> 
> To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.
> 
> I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.
> 
> I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.
> 
> 
> Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.
> 
> The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.
> 
> Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.
> 
> The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.
> 
> There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.
> 
> Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.
> 
> 
> I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?
> 
> *Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*
> 
> Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.
> 
> Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.
> 
> But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.
> 
> *Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*
> 
> Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.
> 
> Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.
> 
> There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.
> 
> *Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> *Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *
> 
> Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.
> 
> 
> *Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *
> 
> Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.





django said:


> @WAJsal I and others on PDF would certainly appreciate interviews of erudite PDF bloggers like @Joe Shearer @blain2 @Xeric and @Kaptaan


I do not have words to appreciate such brutal but true writing. Thanks for taking us through the path of history in a sequential way. The impact is 4 folds. Leaves us in a deep thought as to what can we contribute now to save our dream, our Pakistan. You have beautifully stated the way ahead. Thanks


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## Zee-Gen

I have read it 3x already and still desires to read it once more……..simply amazing and Niaz sir, I had great respect for you, but now it has increased many folds……and God bless you all involved in this process……lastly I will recommend @MastanKhan to be interviewed.


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## Shah01

Thank you for pointing me to this thread @Wajsal. Excellent initiative by you and @Zaki.
Can I say thank you @niaz for taking the time to share this with us. If I may I would like a bit more information/view regarding the following:



WAJsal said:


> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.


I agree with OIC and "Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb".
But the first point was his own creation... ZAB created the problem when he walked away from the Polish resolution...



WAJsal said:


> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job


Sir couldn't agree more. I see lots of resistance in my own family when I try to tell cousins to go into a field other than becoming a doctor/engineer/teacher. The older generation just can't come to terms with professions like Pharmacist, Robotics, Dentistry etc let alone helping the young with jobs like plumber/tailor etc.



WAJsal said:


> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.


Sir ZAB and the bigot (as you put it) Zia were the main downfalls of the country. Maybe many ills would've avoided by taking these two guys out..... Furthermore who's idea was 1965 war?



WAJsal said:


> and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.


Sir I fail to understand why we haven't built other dams if we are unable to come to an agreement for Kalabagh... There are so many other sites for water reservoirs as well as for hydel power generation.

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## niaz

Shah01 said:


> Thank you for pointing me to this thread @Wajsal. Excellent initiative by you and @Zaki.
> Can I say thank you @niaz for taking the time to share this with us. If I may I would like a bit more information/view regarding the following:
> 
> 
> I agree with OIC and "Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb".
> But the first point was his own creation... ZAB created the problem when he walked away from the Polish resolution...
> 
> 
> Sir couldn't agree more. I see lots of resistance in my own family when I try to tell cousins to go into a field other than becoming a doctor/engineer/teacher. The older generation just can't come to terms with professions like Pharmacist, Robotics, Dentistry etc let alone helping the young with jobs like plumber/tailor etc.
> 
> 
> Sir ZAB and the bigot (as you put it) Zia were the main downfalls of the country. Maybe many ills would've avoided by taking these two guys out..... Furthermore who's idea was 1965 war?
> 
> 
> Sir I fail to understand why we haven't built other dams if we are unable to come to an agreement for Kalabagh... There are so many other sites for water reservoirs as well as for hydel power generation.



Thanks for all the accolade. But I had my say and let us leave it that. Without being modest, I can say with certainty that there are many extremely competent and knowledgeable members of this forum and I wait to hear their opinion..

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## Indus Pakistan

niaz said:


> Thanks for all the accolade. But I had my say and let us leave it that. Without being modest, I can say with certainty that there are many extremely competent and knowledgeable members of this forum and I wait to hear their opinion..


I read your interview and I not only thoroughly enjoyed reading it but found it very insightful. It probably is one of the* top posts* I have read at PDF. I am surprised that I have (my loss) not had any engagement with yourself or at least to my recollection.

Most of the points you mention drawn from your long experiance tallied with what I have read and heard from from my dad who is only few years older than you. He also looks back at Ayub era as the golden period in Pakistan. Similar to you it was during his rule that he availed of certain grants toward higher education that led him to UK and ending up permanently settling there - My life is a product of that decision.

There are a few points that I would offer as part of critical analysis of your post when I get the time. It would be great to see more contribution from yourself around PDF. Once again thank you for a marvellous read.

And thanks also to the two gents @WAJsal @Zaki for making this possible

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## Hyde

Thank you so much @niaz Sir

It was pleasure reading your interview again n again. Thank you so much for your time

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## Blue Marlin

@WAJsal so who are you gonna interview next?

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## WAJsal

Blue Marlin said:


> @WAJsal so who are you gonna interview next?


Best to keep it a secret. It will be posted next month. You can give suggestions. 

I reckon everyone loved this interview.

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## livingdead

WAJsal said:


> Best to keep it a secret. It will be posted next month. You can give suggestions.
> 
> I reckon everyone loved this interview.


my suggestions please interview @Salik @Zarvan @ImranKhan @S.U.R.B.

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## Blue Marlin

WAJsal said:


> Best to keep it a secret. It will be posted next month. You can give suggestions.
> 
> I reckon everyone loved this interview.


dont be mean and at least give us a clue.


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## WAJsal

Blue Marlin said:


> dont be mean and at least give us a clue.


It will be an international member.


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## Blue Marlin

WAJsal said:


> It will be an international member.


international as in another british pakistani or international as in someone whos not pakistani?

tag me once its posted


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## hembo

One of the top posts of PDF and my already prevailing great respect to @niaz ji has grown manifold. Great initiative @WAJsal @Zaki and all other involved..

I would suggest @fatman17 , @MastanKhan , @Joe Shearer , @blain2 , @Salik as probable future endeavors...

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## EasyNow

What an excellent thread. 

@niaz sir, you are the one and only person that I choose to follow on this site. Your views are so well informed and consistent and they clearly come from a good heart. I look forward to reading many more of your posts in the future.

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## Chak Bamu

Bravo @niaz sb. I have been reading your posts for 11 years now. I can not tell you how much I admire the effort you put into arriving at your views (though I disagree with some of them). You are an inspiration indeed!

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## WAJsal

Great feedback from all , @Zaki .

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## Green Arrow

Great thread @WAJsal and thank you @niaz bhai for your wonderful insights into the problem which we are facing it now. 

Plz. Add @MastanKhan and @Oscar into the interview list as well.

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## Blue Marlin

ok @WAJsal its February now post the next interview

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> ok @WAJsal its February now post the next interview



Quality over quantity friend.

Hold your horses

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## Blue Marlin

Nilgiri said:


> Quality over quantity friend.
> 
> Hold your horses


well kind off id prefer an un modified interview as was niaz's.
how long does an interview take?


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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> well kind off id prefer an un modified interview as was niaz's.
> how long does an interview take?



No idea how long it takes.


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## WAJsal

Not as easy as it may sound, the mix of questions are a challenge. 
@Blue Marlin , will be posted on 20th February.

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## WAJsal

Very excited for the next one @Zaki , i think the questions are great. 


Blue Marlin said:


> international as in another british pakistani or international as in someone whos not pakistani?


It will not be a Pakistani member. We agreed to interview an international member for the second interview.

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## Blue Marlin

WAJsal said:


> Very excited for the next one @Zaki , i think the questions are great.
> 
> It will not be a Pakistani member. We agreed to interview an international member for the second interview.


is the person european?


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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> is the person european?



LOL, you are one of those pests aren't you.


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## Blue Marlin

Nilgiri said:


> LOL, you are one of those pests aren't you.


no, im an angel

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## RescueRanger

Fantastic write up, it's a pleasure to have such esteemed professionals on PDF.

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## Green Arrow

Where is the 2nd Interview for Feb?

@WAJsal

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## The Eagle

Green Arrow said:


> Where is the 2nd Interview for Feb?
> 
> @WAJsal



https://defence.pk/threads/members-interview-austerlitz.478805/

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## Sheikh Rauf

Excellent interview and great idea of interview with such a great personality like Mr. Niaz.

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## Salza

Just done reading this. What a great write up. Thanks for your views Niaz sb.

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## Musafir117

I always see hope in Pakistan to having people like @niaz Sahib and most of them can find here in PDF, there are couples of bloggers/Posters here I love to read and Niaz sahib one of them. Thanks Admin.

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## Green Arrow

So Who is the next one ? @WAJsal

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## WAJsal

Green Arrow said:


> So Who is the next one ? @WAJsal


Can you give me a day or two to post it. Just giving it a final touch.

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## Green Arrow

WAJsal said:


> Can you give me a day or two to post it. Just giving it a final touch.


Thanks. PLease tagged me as well once done.


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## Nilgiri

@WAJsal where did the 3rd interview go (navy veteran one)?

Can it be pinned here (in this section) so its all in the same place?

Thanks.

BTW, when is the 4th one due?

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## WAJsal

Nilgiri said:


> @WAJsal where did the 3rd interview go (navy veteran one)?
> 
> Can it be pinned here (in this section) so its all in the same place?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> BTW, when is the 4th one due?


It was removed for some reason. 4th one is coming together nicely, give it some time.

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## Green Arrow

Can we not have all interviews at the same place Just to find it easier ? @WAJsal

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## WAJsal

Green Arrow said:


> Can we not have all interviews at the same place Just to find it easier ? @WAJsal


I would request Webmaster to make a separate sub-section in announcement section for the interviews.

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## Divergent

WAJsal said:


> @Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
> Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
> It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
> Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The interview:*
> 
> *Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
> *
> Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.
> 
> After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.
> 
> I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.
> 
> My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.
> 
> Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.
> 
> Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.
> 
> Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).
> 
> My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*
> 
> Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.
> 
> I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.
> 
> I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.
> 
> There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.
> 
> First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.
> 
> Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.
> 
> Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.
> 
> In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.
> 
> Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.
> 
> After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.
> 
> First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.
> 
> Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.
> 
> Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.
> 
> Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.
> 
> A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.
> 
> 4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.
> 
> 5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.
> 
> 6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.
> 
> I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.
> 
> It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.
> 
> Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.
> 
> *Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
> *
> Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.
> 
> No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.
> 
> Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.
> 
> 
> Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.
> 
> East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.
> 
> Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.
> 
> Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.
> 
> Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.
> 
> However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*
> 
> Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.
> 
> I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.
> 
> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.
> 
> *Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*
> 
> Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.
> 
> *Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of'
> *
> Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.
> 
> Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.
> 
> For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.
> 
> Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.
> 
> *Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*
> 
> Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.
> 
> Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.
> 
> Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.
> 
> I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.
> 
> *Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*
> 
> Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.
> 
> Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.
> 
> In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.
> 
> I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.
> 
> My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.
> 
> Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.
> 
> 
> I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.
> 
> To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.
> 
> Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.
> 
> *Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
> *
> Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.
> 
> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.
> 
> *Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*
> 
> Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.
> 
> To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.
> 
> I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.
> 
> I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.
> 
> 
> Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.
> 
> The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.
> 
> Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.
> 
> The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.
> 
> There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.
> 
> Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.
> 
> 
> I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?
> 
> *Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*
> 
> Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.
> 
> Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.
> 
> But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.
> 
> *Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*
> 
> Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.
> 
> Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.
> 
> There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.
> 
> *Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> *Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *
> 
> Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.
> 
> 
> *Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *
> 
> Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.





WAJsal said:


> @Side-Winder , please share it on our social media pages, thank you.
> Moderation team came up with an idea of interviewing prominent members of PDF, none better than @niaz bhai to start this initiative with. Before i post the interview i would like to thank @niaz bhai for finding the time for us. It has been an honour for me and @Zaki to have interviewed him. I would also like to thank the admins and moderation team for their efforts. I would also like to thank a group of members for their help and effort.
> It is a long interview, i promise it's worth it.
> Last comments: It is an effort on our part, it will absolutely not be perfect. Please overlook any mistakes from our part. Please share it with others, do try to share it with our younger generation i think everyone can learn a lot from this interview.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The interview:*
> 
> *Question: Being an old member on PDF you are well-known and followed by many, can you give a small background about yourself for our new members or guests reading this interview?
> *
> Niaz: I was born in 1943. Had early schooling in Sialkot & Rawalpindi. Joined Gov’t College Sargodha for the F.Sc and then moved to Gov’t College Lahore.
> 
> After a B.Sc. Hons Chemical Technology. I got a job as Assistant Scientific Officer in Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and was sent to UK in 1962 where I studied for the D.I.C (Diploma Imperial College) in Nuclear Technology under Colombo Plan scholarship scheme and also obtained a M.Sc. Chemical Engineering from the University of London. After working for one year at National Engineering Laboratories, East Kilbride, Glasgow I returned to Pakistan in December 1966.
> 
> I had specialized in Nuclear Fuel Processing and at the time there was no work for me at the PAEC. I was therefore asked to go to Spain for ‘On the job’ training. Not being happy, I resigned from PAEC and joined Esso Eastern Inc. in 1967. In 1970, I was in USA working as Process Engineer. Esso Eastern Office relocated to Houston and I returned to Pakistan in the summer of 1971.
> 
> My progress at Esso was good and I was promoted to the manager level when I was barely 30. However, after Esso was sold out to the Pakistan government and became PSO in 1976; I experienced murder of merit & saw ‘Nepotism’ in action. I resigned and joined Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1977.
> 
> Kuwaitis nationalized Amin Oil Refinery (Now Mina Abdulla Refinery) in 1979. I was then in the ‘black oils’ section and was transferred to the international marketing with the task of disposing off the surplus fuel oil from the Amin Oil plant. I managed to sell the fuel oil to the Italian refineries. Since then I have not looked back and have been working with the various International Oil refining & marketing companies in the UK and in UAE. My last job was with an Oil Trading company in Fujairah.
> 
> Since 2011, I am semi-retired and trying to eke out a living as Petroleum / Energy Consultant. My latest assignment is as an ‘Expert Witness’ in a dispute over the quality of oil tested at the discharge port.
> 
> Only professional organization I belong is the American Institute of Chemical Engineers of which I am a senior member. I have rowed during my Imperial College days and played squash on the side. I also play Bridge & Chess. I am an amateur star-gazer and have a couple of high powered telescopes and am also member of the West of London Astronomical Society (WOLAS).
> 
> My favorite subject is History but I also like Poetry. In addition to the Urdu & Punjabi poetry, I am an ardent fan of Omar Khayyam & Sheik Saadi. I like collecting books that interest me. My personal library has about 400 books on different subjects but mostly on the history & religions of the world.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the happiest and saddest times Pakistan has been through, from Ayub khan to Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Bhutto...how has your experience been through these times?*
> 
> Niaz: I have nostalgic memories of Ayyub Khan’s era. Pakistan was a fast developing country with the 1st & 2nd 5 year plans. Maxipak Wheat, Irri Rice, Indus water treaty, Scarp (Salinity Control & Reclamation Project), PINSTECH, KANUP, Suparco, Karachi Shipyard, Pakistan Steel Mill, Pakistan Refinery limited, National refinery, Warsak Dam, Mangla Dam, Tarbela Dam, Quaid e Azam’s mausoleum and the PTV; all were completed or started during Ayyub era. I don’t remember any sad times from that period.
> 
> I was in UK during 1965 war which was a turning point. I found things changed drastically on my return to Pakistan in December 1966. I went thru the mayhem started by ZA Bhutto that after the ‘Decade of Development” celebrations and was in Pakistan during Yahya Khan’s martial law.
> 
> I was in USA when the military action started in East Pakistan in 1970 but returned to Pakistan during summer of 1971. I was witness to the drama played out in the UN when ZA Bhutto tore up the Polish resolution and ensured that there was no honorable way out for Pakistani troops fighting in East Pakistan. I suffered the worst & saddest moment of my life watching Gen. Niazi surrender at Paltan maidan, Dacca. Dec 16, 1971.
> 
> There have been quite a few bright moments in Pakistan’s short history.
> 
> First bright moment of Pakistan’s history occurred in 1952 when Sui gas was discovered. Then again in March 1956, when Pakistan became a Republic. Next bright moment was when the UN Tribunal awarded 10% of the disputed territory of the Rann of Kutch to Pakistan in Feb. 1968.
> 
> Another milestone event was the OIC conference in Lahore in Feb 1974. At that time Pakistan was truly in the forefront of the Islamic world.
> 
> Wining of Hockey Gold in 1960 Olympics was another happy moment for me along with 1992 Cricket world Cup. However, 1992 event shifted the emphasis away from Hockey which until that time had been our national sport.
> 
> In my opinion, most important event in Pakistan’s Science occurred when Dr Abdus Salam was appointed Scientific Advisor by Ayyub Khan in 1960. It was Dr Salam who, by enlarging the PAEC & setting up Suparco, started the process which culminated in Pakistan becoming a Nuclear Power. Dr Salam’s contacts and good offices resulted in a large number of scholarships made available to the Pakistani youth. My family could never afford to pay for my UK education and had it not been for Ayyub Khan & Dr Abdus Salam; I would have never managed to get to where I am today.
> 
> Conducting the nuclear test was not a bright moment but a necessity. India had exploded 5 nuclear bombs at Pokhran Test Range in May 11, 1998 under ‘Operation Shakti’ if we had missed that opportunity, the window would have been closed for ever.
> 
> After the initial pilot transmissions, Pakistan TV had been set up in 1964. The news coverage was highly biased and PTV used mostly for the purpose of enhancing image of the political party in power. In 2002 Musharraf government allowed private TV channels to operate in Pakistan. This gave rise to a freedom of expression scenario unheard of in Pakistan of pre-2002 period. I don’t exactly know how many, but there must be more than 50 Channels operating in Pakistan today. IMHO this event was the last bright moment in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There have been too many sad moments in Pakistan’s history. I can only recount the ones that I think important.
> 
> First one was the “Doctrine of Necessity” invented by the then CJ of the Federal Court, Justice Mohammed Munir. Gov. Gen. Ghulam Mohammed unilaterally dissolved the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1954. Justice Munir upheld this decision because it was necessary. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia’ Justice Munir admitted that it was a grave mistake.
> 
> Second one was agitation by ZA Bhutto against Ayyub Khan. It was wrongly portrayed by ZAB that Pakistan had won the 1965 war and Ayyub had thrown way the advantage by signing Russian brokered Tashkent Agreement.
> 
> Realistically speaking; Pakistan started the war but failed to attain her objective of liberating Indian occupied Kashmir. However, we managed to fight vastly superior Indian force to a ‘Stalemate’. Hence portraying 1965 war as ‘Victory’ is gross exaggeration.
> 
> Nearly all of our military hardware was of the US origin. After USA imposed sanctions, we were running out of ammunition for guns and spare parts for the fighter planes. Pakistan was in no position to carry on the fight to finish. An honorable ceasefire was therefore the best option. Nevertheless ZA Bhutto managed to fool Pakistani public into thinking that Pakistan had won and started the agitation that resulted in the eventual takeover by Gen.Yahya Khan.
> 
> A very sad event was refusal of ZA Bhutto to accept the national mandate and his slogan “Uther tum ither hum” meaning ‘You there , we here’; which ultimately resulted in Pakistan’s defeat by India in 1971 and Pakistan cut in half.
> 
> 4th bad moment was nationalization of industries including the banks by the PPP government under ZA Bhutto. It killed off the entrepreneurship and started the culture of over employment in the state owned industries resulting in PIA, PSM & the Railways turning into pit holes of the tax payer’s money.
> 
> 5th bad event was when ZA Bhutto injected religion into Pakistani laws. Had it been done sincerely, it would have been okay, but ZA Bhutto did it to release the pressure of ‘Nizam-e-Mustafa’ movement. It was the classical ‘Too little too late’ action and ZAB was toppled a couple of years later.
> 
> 6th and one of the worst moments of Pakistan’s history was the imposition of Martial law by Zia ul Haq. I personally heard Zia promising to hold elections within 90 days, but he carried on for 12 years. Most of the current ills of our society like drugs & Kalashnikov culture, sectarianism, Hudood Laws & the intolerance are his legacy.
> 
> I had many Palestinian colleagues during my employment for Kuwait National Petroleum Company. All of them loved ZA Bhutto and hated Zia ul Haq. My fellow members may not remember that despite being only a ‘Military Advisor' in Jordan; Brig Zia ul Haq took direct command of the Jordan’ Armored Div. and was the key figure in killing of nearly 5,000 Palestinians.
> 
> It was not Pakistan’s war? What business does a Pakistani Brigadier have to fight the Palestinians on the side of King of Jordan? JI & religious parties cry blue murder whenever there is talk of Pakistan recognizing Israel because of the Palestine question, but the same religious parties love Zia ul Haq, butcher of nearly 5000 Palestine Muslims.
> 
> Zia wanted to make us good Muslims, instead he turned us into a society of Muslims where some members sodomise young boys, make videos of the act and then blackmail the parents for money, as happened in Kasur and more recently in Islamabad.
> 
> *Question: Having lived through the entire India-Pakistan conflict - was it inevitable? Could things have turned out differently? If so, when were the points in history you think an opportunity was lost?
> *
> Niaz: Looking back, 1947 partition was extremely bloody & momentous affair. It is estimated that about 2-million lost their lives and more than 10-million displaced. This left very deep scars which may never heal completely.
> 
> No matter what ‘lies’ the history text books written during Zia’s time try to portray; I would like to remind my fellow members that Muslim League was formed in 1906 in Dacca. In 1937 provincial election, Muslim League won 37 seats in Bengal out of 250. Whereas in Punjab only one seat (Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan) out of 175.
> 
> Even UP delivered Muslim League 26 seats out of 228. In Sind & NWFP, Muslim League did not win a single seat whereas Congress got 7 out 60 in Sind and 19 out of 50 in NWFP.
> 
> 
> Lahore Resolution of 23rd March was written by Zafarullah Khan (a Qadiani) and proposed by AK Fazlul Haq, then Chief Minister of Bengal. Bengalis & Qadianis were therefore supporter of Pakistan and of the Muslim League. On the other hand Jamaat Islami and religious parties were anti-Pakistani to core. Hence role of Bengali Muslims in the Pakistan movement was far greater than Muslims from Punjab, NWFP & Sind where a large number of political leaders remained against Pakistan until the very end.
> 
> East Pakistan separated primarily because ZA Bhutto realized that as long as Bengalis were Pakistanis, he could never attain power. Sadly the Army, officered largely by the Punjabis & the Pashtuns, went along with him and we lost half the country. Recent dharnas by Imran Khan remind me somewhat of agitation led by ZA Bhutto during 1969 which led to the second Martial Law and when Imran hinted ‘when finger of the umpire is raised’, he was obviously banking on Pak Army intervention.
> 
> Congress never wanted partition and even though Pakistan was not much more than a pinprick; after 1965 India was waiting for the opportunity to cut pinprick into half the pinprick. In 1971 the Bengali component of the security forces split from the Pak Army and became the core of Mukti Bahini. India supplied funds, arms and military training to the new recruits which enabled Mukti Bahini to launch an effective guerrilla campaign against Pakistan Army.
> 
> Atrocities were committed from both sides. Inspired by Sheikh Mujib ur Rahman, thousands of Biharis Muslims were brutally slaughtered by the Mukti Bahini. Atrocities committed by Pak Army were also horrendous. Bengali nationalists’ claim of some 3-million slaughtered is obviously exaggerated but even if a tenth of the number, that is 300,000 were killed; it is far too many and need to be unreservedly condemned.
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by my Bangladeshi friends that Pak Military had armed gangs of Jamaat Islami volunteers who went on rampage as death squads killing off the nationalists. It was then I realized that the Two Nation Theory had ceased to be of any relevance.
> 
> Just hammering the point that because people of both the wings were Muslims; they should remain united on account of Islam does not work. I had visited East Pakistan twice while working for Esso and felt that I had more in common with non- Muslim inhabitants of East Punjab, Haryana and Utter Pradesh than with the Bengali Muslims. I am sure East Pakistanis also felt that they were closer to the Hindus of West Bengal than the Muslims of West Pakistan. Eventual separation was therefore unavoidable but the bloodshed could have been avoided. This could have been thru a referendum in East Pakistan like the one held in Scotland.
> 
> However, I still maintain that decision to partition British India on religious lines was a correct one and proved to be good for the Muslims. Rise of staunchly anti-Muslim gov’t in India represented by the BJP under Modi leadership vindicates that decision. The problem occurred because even though Pakistan was conceived as a ‘Federation’ where residents of each unit were free to choose their destiny; Pakistan ended up as a highly centralized State. Anyone can see that it took 63 years before 18th amendment could be passed. Provincial governments, while claiming to be torch bearers of democracy, are still not prepared to hand over power to the district councils.
> 
> *Question: You have lived through the 1965 war and 1971 war between Pakistan and India, what was your experience of those times? How was the political situation in those days? and what was the general atmosphere in Pakistan back then?*
> 
> Niaz: I was not in Pakistan during 1965 war. But was very much in the 1971 war. Situation in 1971 was bad and every Bengali other than domestic servants were considered suspect.
> 
> I spent 10 days alternating between day & night shifts at the Esso Keamari storage terminal during the 13 day war. We were bombed at least twice every night. I was there when storage tanks at Keamari were bombed and caught fire. Morale of the public was down and everyone was is despair after the surrender of 90,000 soldiers.
> 
> In my opinion ZA Bhutto only did 3 worthwhile things for Pakistan. These being negotiating release of the POWs, holding of OIC conference and the Bhutto’s resolve that “Pakistanis would eat grass but we will make the nuclear bomb” after the Indian nuclear test of May 1974 at Pokhran.
> 
> *Question: What is the biggest step forward that Pakistan can take for building good relations in South Asia?*
> 
> Niaz: There would be no peace until Kashmir problem is resolved. Ground reality is that we cannot win IOK by military means and India is not going to hand it us either. Only possibility left to explore is “Out of the box” thinking and pursue the Musharraf idea of making travel between the AK & IOK so easy for the Kashmiris that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA / Canada border.
> 
> *Question: Why can't Pakistan get sincere leadership like the one of Quaid-e-Azam? And do you think the 'Pakistan dream' will ever come true? 'Pakistan dream being a great state our forefathers dreamt of'
> *
> Niaz: Main problem is that nearly all politico- religious parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI, Majlis e Ahrar, were against Quaid-e-Azam and creation of Pakistan. The very same people hijacked Pakistan after the take over by the bigot Zia. This section of the society does not believe in the democratic process or in the national boundaries or in the ‘Pakistan Dream’. Instead they would like to turn Pakistan into a dark age Khilafat. Scholars who disagree with this interpretation of Islam are either killed or hounded out such as Allama Ghamdi.
> 
> Politicians on the other hand are in the political game for the sole purpose of attaining power and making money. Additionally, general public doesn’t think that corruption is bad thing and keeps on voting the same faces /names time & again.
> 
> For example, people’s party is the led by the most incompetent and corrupt leadership but they would always win in rural Sind. Despite being known thug and drunk, Altaf Hussein still has a strong following among the Urdu speakers of Karachi & Hyderabad. Voting is on the other hand solely on the basis of ‘Braderi’ in Punjab. Can any sane man justify Rana Sana Ullah’s killing of Minhaj supporters in Model Town Lahore? But you will see that PML-N as well as Rana Sana Ullah would be voted back in by the Punjabi voters.
> 
> Until such time that elections are won and / or lost on the ‘Issues’ such as economic welfare, health & education and crime; it is indeed difficult to envisage that Pakistan dream will ever come true. I had great hopes for Imran Khan but gave up on him because of his love of the Taliban cut-throats and because all he does is ‘disruptive’ politics. One can only hope that sooner or later a new Quaid will be born but probably not during my lifetime.
> 
> *Question: How do you make political establishment of the country more accountable. What more political reforms do you feel are needed to accommodate aspirations and concerns of youth, who seem to be getting detached from current setup?*
> 
> Niaz: National Accountability Bureau (NAB) is not the answer because it will always be used selectively. Way to make politicians accountable is thru fear of the ballot box.
> 
> Based on the current rule, Nawaz Sharif can remain Prime Minister until he drops dead. Hence there is little chance of anyone else coming up. Leadership is also becoming hereditary in Pakistan. First thing is to make a law that no one can become Prime Minister or President or even a provincial minister or chief minister for more than two terms. Additionally there must be free and fair elections within the party as well and also no one to remain leader of the party for more than 3 terms. This is the only way that some top positions in the party will open up to the new cadre.
> 
> Young men in Pakistan after graduation and even higher qualification have little chance of finding gainful employment. No government can provide jobs to all the school leavers and college graduates. Majority of the jobs are generated by the private sector and private sector needed a safe and stable environment and progress friendly local laws.
> 
> I am no intellectual and thus not able to come up with any innovative solution. I can only quote from the criterion of self-reference. To me most important are the local council elections which give chance to the young & underprivileged to come up the political ladder. UK Mayor is son of a Pakistan immigrant whose father was a bus driver! On the other hand in Pakistan local bodies were dissolved by the political parties and even after 8 years are still not fully active.
> 
> *Question: How do you see the change in next generation and possible way of teaching them as per our culture, society and values? Like parents and schooling responsibility?*
> 
> Niaz: First we have to agree as to what is our culture and / or the inherited values. Pakistanis born before 1960 will remember that all provinces of Pakistan enjoy a rich & colorful heritage of poetry, food, dancing & music. The current puritanical culture imposed on us by the bigot Zia is not our culture nor our heritage but an alien import from Saudi Arabia. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Being Muslims does not imply that we forget our original roots.
> 
> Pakistan is a land of the Sufis. Majority of Punjabis & Sindhis converted to Islam not by force of arms but by means of love and compassion. Examine life of any of the Sufi Saints, no one preached jihad or killing of infidels.
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s society is not going to change until there is better education and opportunities for betterment for the underprivileged. One cannot eliminate elitist schools primarily because no two students have the same ability and the very rich would always want to remain aloof from rest of the public.
> 
> In my time there were three classes of students. One who went to the elitist schools such as Aitchison College, the second went thru the Cambridge education system and the third who went to the Gov’t run or Urdu medium schools. Now there is a 4th kind of education as well, that is the madrassah.
> 
> I am not against the madrassah system per se. It provides education and takes care of thousands of children from very poor background. My problem is that young men completing the madrassah education do not learn any productive skill and hence find it hard to earn a decent living. Majority of such students therefore end up joining jihadi organizations and becoming terrorists.
> 
> My compatriots must realize that there are some eternal laws of nature and change / growth is one such law. A nation without the capacity to change with the times and adapting modern technology will be left behind. Unfortunately the religious lobby, especially the Al-Qaida / ISIS /Taliban type thinking, presumes that because we are Muslims, it is our right to be in the front. Regrettably reality is quite different.
> 
> Changez Khan killed nearly 40-million; majority being Muslims when there was still a Khalifa in Baghdad primarily because Mongols were better soldiers. Ranjit Singh hired French Generals to train the infantry and the cavalry with Col. Gardner to modernize the artillery. Even the English avoided confronting Khalsa Army while Ranjit Singh was alive. Whereas Muslims lost India to the English and the Ottoman Empire disappeared because the Muslim rulers were not able to sufficiently adapt to the changing times.
> 
> 
> I don’t believe the in the notion that this world is nothing and one should only worry about after life where 72 houris eagerly await him. I consider myself an Allah fearing Muslim who believes that Allah desires Muslims to succeed in this life as well in the next for which Muslims must also make an effort.
> 
> To succeed in this life a sound education in the modern sciences and / or acquiring a productive skill is a must. It is my belief that religious education should complement the formal education and not replace it.
> 
> Madrassa curriculum should include vocational training and the science subjects and the students should also take the Matric examination. This way hundreds of thousands of young men would have the chance of some productive occupation after they finish the school. Rigorous religious education like all specialized subjects should start after F.A. / B.Sc. or at least after Matric.
> 
> *Question: What in your opinion is wrong with our current education system? How do you propose to correct it?
> *
> Niaz: As nation we must realize that everybody cannot become doctor or engineer or a CSP officer. Simple BA education only produces clerks. Therefore in addition to the normal colleges & universities; we need a lot more vocation schools teaching practical skills i.e. plumbing, carpentry, tailoring, masonry & building trades, electric welding & operating machine tools and motor car mechanics etc. This would produce young men & women with some technical skill (Hunar) which will enable them to earn an honorable living.
> 
> What is also needed is change of the mind-set that job of an artisan such as an electrician or a plumber or a tailor is beneath a white collar job. Frankly, I don’t see an easy solution to this problem.
> 
> *Question: How do we end ingrained extremism in our society without starting a civil war?*
> 
> Niaz: You cannot eliminate extremism without changing the hearts & minds of the people. Extremism is not native to Pakistan. It was imported into KPK in the 1820’s by Syed Ahmed Braelvi. In Punjab & Sind it came with the Urdu speaking refugees of Deobandi affiliation and was propagated vigorously by the anti-Pakistan parties like Jamaat Islami and JUI faction of Sami ul Haq.
> 
> To get rid of this extremist streak requires strong political leaders; not the weak kneed Nawaz Sharif nor the Taliban Khan or Mr 10 percent Zardari. Military action alone is not enough and strong political will on the part of government is needed.
> 
> I repeat that I am not an innovative thinker and therefore can only quote try and tested example. In my view, Pakistan should adopt something on the Omani lines.
> 
> I have visited Sohar Refiney in Oman half a dozen times during my stay at Fujairah and have many Omani friends some of them quite bright and not afraid to discuss religious extremism.
> 
> 
> Apart from the some minor residual tensions resulting from Wahhabi incursions into the coast of Oman around two centuries ago, Oman has not experienced any significant episode of sectarian conflict. Main reason being that Omani gov’t implemented policies for social integration and accommodation of different identities and religious sects rather than those for dissimulation propagated in Pakistan during the long era of the bigot Zia.
> 
> The most telling illustration of the lack of sectarianism in Oman came during the 2011 Arab Spring protests that occurred in different parts of the Sultanate from late January until late May 2011. In both the north in Sohar and in the south in Salalah, Omani protesters made no mention whatsoever of sectarianism. Demonstrators’ demands were focused on socio-economic and corruption-related issues. Also Omani government did not play the sectarian or regional card as a way to defuse the impetus of the protests.
> 
> Omani government does not keep official statistics on religious affiliation, however it is estimated that 75% of Omani nationals belong to the Ibadi / Kharji sect of Islam. The remaining 25% are either Sunni or Shia Muslims. There is also small community of ethnically Indian Hindus & Christians that have been naturalized.
> 
> The basic Law of Oman declares that Islam is the State religion and that Shari’a is the source of legislation. Law also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides for the freedom to practice religious rites as long as doing so does not disrupt public order.
> 
> There is a prohibition on religious gatherings in locations other than government-approved houses of worship. All religious organizations must be registered and licensed by the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs (MERA). Religious leaders of all faiths and Muslim Imams must be licensed by the MERA. However unlicensed lay members are not prohibited from leading prayers in mosques.
> 
> Foreigners on tourist visas are prohibited from preaching, teaching, or leading worship. Article 209 of the Penal Code assigns a prison sentence and fine to anyone who publicly blasphemes Allah or His prophets, commits an affront to religions and faiths by spoken or written word, or breaches the peace of a lawful religious gathering.
> 
> 
> I know that the above is easier said than done. However I for one can’t think of any effective cure for extremism. Even Civil war will not resolve it. There would be peace no doubt but it would be a harsh & suppressive peace like the silence in a grave yard as we saw in Afghanistan under Mulla Omer. How many Pakistanis will like to live under such a regime?
> 
> *Question: Pakistan has vast mineral resources, a fertile land, and water resources, why can't we utilize these resources?*
> 
> Niaz: Pakistan does not have vast mineral resources and whatever resources we have are bound up in rivalry hence we are unable to exploit this wealth. Take Reko dek as an example, the company who was ready to do the needful was kicked out 5 years ago. No progress since then. Lubricant of industrial progress is Energy and Pakistan is severely short in this department but still we don’t agree to build Kalabagh Dam.
> 
> Pakistan is short of water and the arable land is limited whereas the population growth goes on unchecked. There were 35-million West Pakistanis in 1951, now we are close to 200-million. At this rate and we would not have sufficient land to grow enough grain to feed all.
> 
> But the commodity that is most severely lacking is the ‘Human resource’ which is the most important element in economic progress. This is not because there are no bright Pakistani minds but because merit is discouraged and most of the competent Pakistanis are forced to immigrate due to the nepotism prevailing the society. Pakistan badly needs an Ataturk to pull Pakistan out of the Middle Age time warp.
> 
> *Question: Do you think CPEC will benefit Pakistan and this region? How?*
> 
> Niaz: Benefiting Pakistan is not the CPEC main agenda. CPEC investment is primarily to facilitate import & export of goods from the China’s Eastern half. Any benefit to Pakistan is therefore only a ‘Bye product’.
> 
> Inevitably there would be many economic benefits to Pakistan but IMHO, CPEC is not the panacea that it is made out to be. Only benefit that I can see at this point in time is improvement of the transport infrastructure and the power generation.
> 
> There are no ‘Free lunches’ in this world. Among the nations, there is always a ‘Quid pro quo’. What is the ‘Pro quo’ required of Pakistan, does anyone really know? Only time will tell how good CPEC is for Pakistan.
> 
> *Question: After Jinnah who would say was the best leader Pakistan had?*
> 
> Niaz: In my opinion, Ayyub Khan & Musharraf were the best and the worst was Gen Zia ul Haq.
> 
> *Question: If you were to be given three wishes for your country by an all-powerful djinn, what would you wish for? *
> 
> Niaz: I would want to revert to the Pakistan as it was during the 1960 – 1964 period. Second wish would be for Pakistan to be self-sufficient in Energy and third would be to have the Kalabagh Dam built.
> 
> 
> *Question: If you had your life to lead all over again, would you change it? *
> 
> Niaz: I would not want to change anything. We were 8 brothers & sisters and more than two dozen first cousins. I had a happy childhood and I am thankful to Allah that he provided me with the opportunities that a middle class boy of average ability in today’s Pakistan can only dream of.



This was a brilliant read and I agreed with many points. Thank you to all those who put effort into this.

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## WAJsal

Guys we are thinking of stop making it a monthly affair, we'll try our best. It's hard for us at times...


Divergent1 said:


> This was a brilliant read and I agreed with many points. Thank you to all those who put effort into this.


Please thank the interviewee.

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## Divergent

@niaz excellent views displayed sir. Thank you

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