# Vikramditya & the IAC Vikrant Threat To Pakistan Waters



## Storm Force

Until Today These where just theoretical threats to Pakistans sea lanes ie

2 new 40k tonne meduim sized carriers who between them can boast 60+ fighters and helicopters

But now its ground reality

Vikramditya rebuilt into a formidable weapons platform is arriving into the indian navy tomrrow AND the IAC indengious carrier is gathering pace in its commissioning soon.

This will help transform their operational capability

'INS Vikramaditya will be a game-changer' - Times Of India







below the indengious VIKRANT even more powerful and modern potentially is taking shape inn indian ship yards






eventually to this by 2016

The MIG29K fighters are already here

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## Luftwaffe

It is true that ACs posses Threats in its own ways but Pakistan has heavily invested in Carrier Killers as Weapons of choice, the motives and objectives should be well know to INavy, decommission ACs temporary out of War is in itself a major success but remains to be seen how effectively Pakistan Navy/Air plans would be. It would be understatement and underestimation by INavy and they should be concerned as with little investment Pakistan can potentially achieve the objectives to taking out ACs out of War..

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## Abingdonboy

Luftwaffe said:


> It is true that ACs posses Threats in its own ways but Pakistan has heavily invested in Carrier Killers as Weapons of choice, the motives and objectives should be well know to INavy, decommission ACs temporary out of War is in itself a major success but remains to be seen how effectively Pakistan Navy/Air plans would be. It would be understatement and underestimation by INavy and they should be concerned as with little investment Pakistan can potentially achieve the objectives to taking out ACs out of War..


The real question is how does Pakistan deploy these much-hyped "carrier killers" against CBGs with significant AAD capability (see MF-STAR/RAN-40L Barak LR-SAM combo) that can launch supersonic fighters, flying BARCAP, with ranges in the 1000s of kms and with IFR capability that are able to take on the best fighter a/c the PAF has to offer and in a situation where the ACC will never need to be put directly in harms way. 


@Dillinger, anything more to add?

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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> The real question is how does Pakistan deploy these much-hyped "carrier killers" against CBGs with significant AAD capability (see MF-STAR/RAN-40L Barak LR-SAM combo) that can launch supersonic fighters, flying BARCAP, with ranges in the 1000s of kms and with IFR capability that are able to take on the best fighter a/c the PAF has to offer and in a situation where the ACC will never need to be put directly in harms way.
> 
> 
> @Dillinger, anything more to add?



I already have, from providing the lineage of the AKG to the near exact time interval between detection and terminal approach and the requirements for its interception during the terminal approach (even with a pulsed rocket it is highly vulnerable to an interceptor with high lateral acceleration operating with the required illumination of the target- all of this is present in the pages of the AKG thread), at best it will place constraints on the AC's operational maneuverability, otherwise its a sub-par option and will not nearly provide the quantum of protection that many here assume that it will. Pakistan's only real defense will lie in a sea-skimming supesonic precision ASCM- that too launched from a nuke sub (albeit a conventional sub will do with certain operational penalties)- and obviously guided in by a complete grid of satellites meant for the express purpose akin to the Upravlayemyi Sputnik (both the passivniy and aktivniy systems from the same family).

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## American Pakistani

Yes they are threat to Pakistan but Pakistan has invested in Carrier Killers as above member too has mentioned. For now these should be a threat to india's billion$ ACC's.

But I think in future Pakistan should try getting one.

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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> I already have, from providing the lineage of the AKG to the near exact time interval between detection and terminal approach and the requirements for its interception during the terminal approach (even with a pulsed rocket it is highly vulnerable to an interceptor with high lateral acceleration operating with the required illumination of the target- all of this is present in the pages of the AKG thread), at best it will place constraints on the AC's operational maneuverability, otherwise its a sub-par option and will not nearly provide the quantum of protection that many here assume that it will. Pakistan's only real defense will lie in a sea-skimming supesonic precision ASCM- that too launched from a nuke sub (albeit a conventional sub will do with certain operational penalties)- and obviously guided in by a complete grid of satellites meant for the express purpose akin to the Upravlayemyi Sputnik (both the passivniy and aktivniy systems from the same family).


Thanks, I'll have to go to the AKG tread and have a read of your comments 

I too was thinking the only credible threat Pakistan could offer against IN ACCs are advanced SSNs and by advanced I don't mean the "noisy" subs the PLAN are operating that would quite easily be detected by the advanced ASW kit the IN has/is set to acquire but truly state of the art contemporary SSNs. And for oh so many reasons this is a just a pipe dream as far as Pakistan is concerned for the short to medium term.

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## acid rain

Abingdonboy said:


> Thanks, I'll have to go to the AKG tread and have a read of your comments
> 
> I too was thinking the only credible threat Pakistan could offer against IN ACCs are advanced SSNs and by advanced I don't mean the "noisy" subs the PLAN are operating that would quite easily be detected by the advanced ASW kit the IN has/is set to acquire but truly state of the art contemporary SSNs. And for oh so many reasons this is a just a pipe dream as far as Pakistan is concerned for the short to medium term.



ACC's for Pakistan is overkill because of the proximity and its geography.

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## EagleEyes

What kind of support fleet does India have?

Pakistan as usual will invest a lot in submarines in the future, but that is not the focus currently.


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## Abingdonboy

WebMaster said:


> What kind of support fleet does India have?


A modest one but it is growing rapidly. 


WebMaster said:


> Pakistan as usual will invest a lot in submarines in the future, but that is not the focus currently.


But is this really enough? Unless they are SSNs up to the level of contemporary Western designs then what real threat is this to the IN with its advanced and growing ASW capabilities.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> But is this really enough? Unless they are SSNs up to the level of contemporary Western designs then what real threat is this to the IN with its advanced and growing ASW capabilities.



A SSN is not not important.. A quiet Diesel will also do. What is required is numbers. These subs have to be able to successfully get close into the ASW net to create issues. However, I would not count out the value of systems such as the Cm-400 or AGM-84. If nothing else, they serve as a source of consternation and have the fleet commander fretting at every flying object coming within 200km of the carrier. It also will force constant BARCAP which in itself is a drain on resources.

Moreover, BARCAPs are not a 100% guarantee that something will not get through or be launched. After all.. PAF mirages managed to break through BARCAPs by F-14s during exercises.. so its better never to underestimate the low level launch platform skimming some 30 feet above the sea.

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## Water Car Engineer

Storm Force said:


>












I like those two slots for the Italian naval guns.

I dont think I have seen an AC with such naval guns attached.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...07-03.jpg/800px-Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg


IAC-1 will look pretty neat when finished.

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## kaykay

Abingdonboy said:


> The real question is how does Pakistan deploy these much-hyped "carrier killers" against CBGs with significant AAD capability (see MF-STAR/RAN-40L Barak LR-SAM combo) that can launch supersonic fighters, flying BARCAP, with ranges in the 1000s of kms and with IFR capability that are able to take on the best fighter a/c the PAF has to offer and in a situation where the ACC will never need to be put directly in harms way.
> 
> 
> @Dillinger, anything more to add?


You forgot mentioning it's powerful 'Electronics Warfare suite' with long range radars which will make a survelliance bubble of 500 km around the ships. Enemy aircrafts will have to struggle to detect the ship and launch any weapon as It has capability to make them 'Blind' beyond 100s of KM. Though quite submarines can be a problem to some extent.


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## HariPrasad

acid rain said:


> ACC's for Pakistan is overkill because of the proximity and its geography.




Exactly, Pakistan already phase a high risk from non AC warships of India. To attack pakistan, Indian planes do not require to fly from AC. So I do not think that India's AC has significantly increased any threat to Pakistan or Pakistan navy. I believe that most threatening part to PN shall be Brahmos mounted on MKIs. Once fired on PN ship, it will be very difficult for the ships to survive.

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## kaykay

Water Car Engineer said:


> I like those two slots for the Italian naval guns.
> 
> I dont think I have seen an AC with such naval guns attached.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...07-03.jpg/800px-Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg
> 
> 
> IAC-1 will look pretty neat when finished.


Bhai saab, I think those 2 slots are not for such naval artillary guns but rather for CIWS.


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## Water Car Engineer

kaykay said:


> Bhai saab, I think those 2 slots are not for such naval artillary guns but rather for CIWS.




I remember seeing CGI of two of those placed there. As far as I can remember.

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## kaykay

Water Car Engineer said:


> I remember seeing CGI of two of those placed there. As far as I can remember.


You may be right.


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## Water Car Engineer

Yup, two of these on the front. Two on the back, this will have four OTO Melara 76 mms on it.

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## Nishan_101

Pakistan needs to work on Frigates, Corvettes and FAC with Auxiliary equipment with China and on Submarines with Germany or France...


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## GURU DUTT

Nishan_101 said:


> Pakistan needs to work on Frigates, Corvettes and FAC with Auxiliary equipment with China and on Submarines with Germany or France...


but sir where will you get money for them  


American Pakistani said:


> Yes they are threat to Pakistan but Pakistan has invested in Carrier Killers as above member too has mentioned. For now these should be a threat to india's billion$ ACC's.
> 
> But I think in future Pakistan should try getting one.


well buddy look at it this way to launch your ASMs you need to be at least in 200 Kms near a CBG first question is how will you manage that cause an indian CBG will have have a 500 Km+ multi layered Radar shield around it while owr ground based assets(Radars+Fighters) scan/track & will take them owt before they even could reach near the CBGs + CBGs are not for paistan MKIs & Mig29 squads based in jamnagar alone can take care of all your assets in southern part of pakistan all the way uptill Balochistan + there are no shortage of fighters in jodhpur for central and ambala for north among others there is no way if a PAF planes takes off & survive to reach in firing zone anywhere say 200 Km+ from owr CBGs with so called "carrier killers" 

please care to tell me how many Planes PAF can spare for this role while bulk of it will be engaged in a battle to save pakistani air space from indian domination 

thanks in advance

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## Echo_419

V


Nishan_101 said:


> Pakistan needs to work on Frigates, Corvettes and FAC with Auxiliary equipment with China and on Submarines with Germany or France...



Very good,excellent,BRAVO

But this is not the thread to tell us that

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## SrNair

An Aircraft Carrier that can carry 30 fighters and supported by number frigates , destroyers and nuclear submarine offer too much power projection.Even some pakistanis here trying to underestimate that fact,I dont think PN underestimate that.


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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> A SSN is not not important.. A quiet Diesel will also do. What is required is numbers. These subs have to be able to successfully get close into the ASW net to create issues. However, I would not count out the value of systems such as the Cm-400 or AGM-84. If nothing else, they serve as a source of consternation and have the fleet commander fretting at every flying object coming within 200km of the carrier. It also will force constant BARCAP which in itself is a drain on resources.
> 
> Moreover, BARCAPs are not a 100% guarantee that something will not get through or be launched. After all.. PAF mirages managed to break through BARCAPs by F-14s during exercises.. so its better never to underestimate the low level launch platform skimming some 30 feet above the sea.



Not to mention that if you can actually saturate the air space and surface/sub-surface with possible bogies then someone or something is bound to get through...I would wager that if things get too hot under the collar then Pakistan might attempt a full out saturation attack..that would be bad. 

@WebMaster The CBG for IN will be composed of the P-15A destroyers among other ships, as such it will have adequate air defense against aircrafts (albeit not if they are attacking from stand-off ranges) and moreover the same interceptor system is designed from the bottom up for missile interception (cruise missile and terminal interception of depressed trajectory SRBM/TBMs). As such it will be adequate for now, dunno how relevant it would be 10-15 years later since the threat scenario changes quite rapidly these days.

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## IND151

PN may invest more in subs in coming years I think, if the IAC 1 and Vikramaditya are part of their new threat perception.


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## Nishan_101

Pakistan never had money for anything... We have to arrange everything...


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## Dash

I dont think A/C wil be used extensively for a fight against Pakistan, but yes war can be unpredictable.

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## Capt.Popeye

Luftwaffe said:


> It is true that ACs posses Threats in its own ways but Pakistan has heavily invested in *Carrier Killers* as Weapons of choice, the motives and objectives should be well know to INavy, decommission ACs temporary out of War is in itself a major success but remains to be seen how effectively Pakistan Navy/Air plans would be. It would be understatement and underestimation by INavy and they should be concerned as with little investment Pakistan can potentially achieve the objectives to taking out ACs out of War..


 
It is apparent that you do not _read, analyse and comprehend_ the information that is available in "open source" before you toss up a piece of journalistic hype: i.e. "*Carrier Killers*".

I need to again point you at what @Oscar painstakingly pointed out on numerous occassions on some other threads about the fallacy of attempting to "kill" Carriers with a few missiles. I will just laugh at such _Farmer John's simple-minded notions_; so do take the trouble to read what Oscar has explained.

It is very important to understand _first of all; _how a Carrier is constructed. It is not constructed like a Canoe or even the Titanic. And a Carrier is constructed even more substantially than even todays RMS Queen Mary 2! There is something known as Damage Control which is an area of study that governs design and construction of Warships (actually all ships) and it stands to reason that those measures will reach their _acme_ in the context of Carriers.

Then do try to imagine how those _alleged_ "*Carrier Killers*" can even get delivered to _a Carrier (which will be part of a CBG) manuevering on the high seas_. Even more so; factor in the relative strengths of the Naval Assets (in three spheres of activity) at the command of the two adversaries in the scenario that you are attempting to conjure up.

All said and done those devices that you so _lovingly and hopefully_ look upon as "*Carrier Killers*" can be considered to nice _phallic symbols_; little else.

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## Shaped charge

hehehe nice birthday gift for me Sevmash


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## Luftwaffe

Capt.Popeye said:


> It is apparent that you do not _read, analyse and comprehend_ the information that is available in "open source" before you toss up a piece of journalistic hype: i.e. "*Carrier Killers*".
> 
> I need to again point you at what @Oscar painstakingly pointed out on numerous occassions on some other threads about the fallacy of attempting to "kill" Carriers with a few missiles. I will just laugh at such _Farmer John's simple-minded notions_; so do take the trouble to read what Oscar has explained.
> 
> It is very important to understand _first of all; _how a Carrier is constructed. It is not constructed like a Canoe or even the Titanic. And a Carrier is constructed even more substantially than even todays RMS Queen Mary 2! There is something known as Damage Control which is an area of study that governs design and construction of Warships (actually all ships) and it stands to reason that those measures will reach their _acme_ in the context of Carriers.
> 
> Then do try to imagine how those _alleged_ "*Carrier Killers*" can even get delivered to _a Carrier (which will be part of a CBG) manuevering on the high seas_. Even more so; factor in the relative strengths of the Naval Assets (in three spheres of activity) at the command of the two adversaries in the scenario that you are attempting to conjure up.
> 
> All said and done those devices that you so _lovingly and hopefully_ look upon as "*Carrier Killers*" can be considered to nice _phallic symbols_; little else.


 
Sure whatever keeps you happy day dreaming, those weapons are specifically being developed to take out ships/ACs out of service "temporarily out of war". Every piece of equipment has its drawbacks and vulnerabilities, ACs are not invincible. You should focus indian ACs not US ACs you would actually be deploying close to Pakistan Area of interests you are mistaken that nothing would come close or touch it that is why PN is considerably investing in smart low costs Anti-Ship weapons including CM-AKG and their further development, they are not being developed to sink fishing boats. Again I would not be so stupid to underestimate such weapons and their use. It is important to understand "Carrier Killer" weapons are developed-tested keeping in mind ACs and ships alike. You are going to enter or come close to the Area of interests heavily protected and you would think it is piece of cake to just sit in there...expect resistance and target, I would also suggest this is not 1971 this is 2013+ you are going to see new and improved weapons over time CM-AKG is just tip of the ice berg. I read you post and all I can get from you post is in simply indian assets are invincible, you are dead wrong though. @AhaseebA comments.


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## AirRodgers

Will just ask/try and buy the DF 21 ASBM, with its long range it will keep the Indian AC far away from Pakistani shore for them to be effective..

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## nomi007

so when will u attack on us
we already have anti-ship missiles
and i future Chinese will take control gawader
i wish india will deploy carriers near pakistan

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## MKI 30

nomi007 said:


> so when will u attack on us
> we already have anti-ship missiles
> and i future Chinese will take control gawader
> i wish india will deploy carriers near pakistan



So much trust on your anti ship missile. Many variables need to be considered and factor those in and it is not so easy. When situation demands sure it would be put to use but lets pray that day never comes. A basic objective of procuring such platforms is to deter the enemy form doing any misadventure. So in a way you could see it as a platform which deters the enemy attacking. And at the end of the day isn't it the only thing we want - PEACE. So dont wish for something that could be harmful for the whole region.

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## Capt.Popeye

Luftwaffe said:


> Sure whatever keeps you happy day dreaming, those weapons are specifically being developed to take out ships/ACs out of service "temporarily out of war". Every piece of equipment has its drawbacks and vulnerabilities, ACs are not invincible. You should focus indian ACs not US ACs you would actually be deploying close to Pakistan Area of interests you are mistaken that nothing would come close or touch it that is why PN is considerably investing in smart low costs Anti-Ship weapons including CM-AKG and their further development, they are not being developed to sink fishing boats. Again I would not be so stupid to underestimate such weapons and their use. It is important to understand "Carrier Killer" weapons are developed-tested keeping in mind ACs and ships alike. You are going to enter or come close to the Area of interests heavily protected and you would think it is piece of cake to just sit in there...expect resistance and target, I would also suggest this is not 1971 this is 2013+ you are going to see new and improved weapons over time CM-AKG is just tip of the ice berg. I read you post and all I can get from you post is in simply indian assets are invincible, you are dead wrong though. @AhaseebA comments.


 
NOPE, this is 2013; but a phallic symbol does not become a much-hyped *"Carrier Killer"* because of that.
As I said earlier; take a look at the explanation offered by @Oscar; if the questions that I raised are unable to provoke you to think further. 


AirRodgers said:


> Will just ask/try and buy the DF 21 ASBM, with its long range it will keep the Indian AC far away from Pakistani shore for them to be effective..


 
Another simple-minded Farmer John appears. 
ASBM--------indeed?

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## Storm Force

I think the only carriers that have ever been sunk have occurred in World War 2 and that was by air strikes ...

Cruise missles i think may and can sink a 4000 tonne frigate

But a 40,000 tonne carrier packed with MIG29K awacs helo support & anti missle systems & SAMS will be a tall order.

This TALL ORDER become more difficult when you consider the following

BBC News - India launches first defence satellite GSAT-7

Dedicated Naval satalite operrational; since August 2013 GSTAT 7

The carriers at present will be protected by upto 5 of the following types with one support ship


The Indian Navy's CBG usually consists of two destroyers (usually of the _Delhi_ class, previously _Kashin_s were used) and two or more frigates, (usually a combination of _Brahmaputra_, _Talwar_ or _Shivalik_ classes) and one support ship.[_citation needed_]

Personally if i was Advising Pakistani Response i would get 2 Sqds of 36 J11 flankers

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## Vinod2070

acid rain said:


> ACC's for Pakistan is overkill because of the proximity and its geography.



As already mentioned, Pakistan is not the primary target for such potent platforms.


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## Storm Force

Vinod

The carriers are coming to protect indian shipping lanes for the next 30 years+

But lets not kid ourselves

Both Vikramditya & Vikrant from 2017 onwarsds CAN and will play a role in any war/ conflict or rising tension in the future if it occurred. If that war happens to be with Pakistan WE will not see india say oh sorry you where not acquired for use against Pakistan.

FOR THIS REASON it is prudent for Pak Military especially Navy to plan for such a scenario.

For all we KNOW they may have the answer already


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

HariPrasad said:


> Exactly, Pakistan already phase a high risk from non AC warships of India. To attack pakistan, Indian planes do not require to fly from AC. So I do not think that India's AC has significantly increased any threat to Pakistan or Pakistan navy. I believe that most threatening part to PN shall be Brahmos mounted on MKIs. Once fired on PN ship, it will be very difficult for the ships to survive.





In-fact IMO, we will use these 2 AC's only to launch deep strikes into pakistan _(In case of full scale war)_ from the least secured border of Baluchistan on Iranian Border.






If you look at the map above, then you can realize that these AC's will give us Unique edge in case we plan to attack pakistan from two sides, without even worrying about Mid-Air Refueling of Fighter jets. In-fact we can simultaneously launch coordinated Air Offense from both Arabian sea _(INAF , 60+ Fighter Jets)_and mainland India _(IAF)._

_A_nd a coordinated offense from east and south will surprise the PAF with Already scattered resources.This is the only scenario i can think of about our Ac's getting used against PN, other-then that our surface fleet of western command is enough for one on one fight considering the current strength of PN.



@Abingdonboy @Dillinger @Vinod2070 @Capt.Popeye

Your views on above scenario ?

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## The Deterrent

Time to ask the Chinese for DF-21 ASBM seeker and guidance technology.

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## AirRodgers

Capt.Popeye said:


> NOPE, this is 2013; but a phallic symbol does not become a much-hyped *"Carrier Killer"* because of that.
> As I said earlier; take a look at the explanation offered by @Oscar; if the questions that I raised are unable to provoke you to think further.
> 
> Another simple-minded Farmer John appears.
> ASBM--------indeed?


An elite member attack the messenger and ignore what posted.


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## Guynextdoor2

why don't you guys negotiate and settle things with us. These 'threats' will suddenly look irrelevant.

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## SrNair

nomi007 said:


> so when will u attack on us
> we already have anti-ship missiles
> and i future Chinese will take control gawader
> i wish india will deploy carriers near pakistan



So you have pride and glad to see that one of your port in your soil is controlled by another foriegn country like china ,that good really good.Wish you Good luck pakistan.

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## SrNair

what are the advantages of mig 29k?How can our rivals counter these fighter jets?


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yup, two of these on the front. Two on the back, this will have four OTO Melara 76 mms on it.


Hmm, I had absolutely NO idea the IN was thinking about putting these weapons on their warships! If true this is absolutely GREAT news, such an advanced and useful self-protection asset.

But will they be the Strales system? Ie with this automation and dart/illumination tracking or just regular OTO Melare 76s as on the Shivlaik class?


@sancho, @Dillinger is this really true? Haven't seen/heard anything on this.

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## Slayer786

*  India’s Muddled Carrier Plans  *
*By Robert Farley *
July 10, 2013

At long last, the delivery of _INS Vikramaditya_, the former Russian _Admiral Gorshkov_ finally appears imminent. Vikramaditya is currently undergoing sea trials with a mixed Russian-Indian crew, and a transfer to Indian service is scheduled for the autumn. The delivery comes several years late, but still perhaps in time for the Indian Navy to use the carrier as a test-bed for _INS Vikrant_, its first indigenous carrier, scheduled for commissioning in 2018.

However, while the delayed delivery of Vikramaditya has surely proven problematic for the Indian Navy, the program has an altogether broader set of problems. Unlike the PLAN, the Indian Navy has a long history of carrier operations, running from the Majestic class INS Vikrant to the former Centaur class _INS Viraat_.

But India’s carrier heritage may be less of an asset than it seems. India doesn’t appear interested in achieving greater efficiency in many areas— even in terms of common training and operational procedures— with this path of carrier fleet development. 

With the arrival of Vikramaditya, the Indian Navy will be flying new aircraft off of a new carrier of largely unfamiliar design. Although the Indian Navy has experience with both carriers and with Russian vessels, its previous carriers have been of British design, and it has never operated a ship this large. 

Furthermore, no Kiev class carrier has been put to sea in an operational sense since the early 1990s, and the modifications to Vikramaditya make her a virtually new vessel in any case. Even after delivery, Vikramaditya will require considerable practice and time to become an effective, operational unit. The MiG-29K is also relatively new to carrier operations, with the first aircraft entering service in 2011. 

Operational tempo in Russian service has thus far been slow, meaning that many of the kinks with the carrier-based version of the veteran fighter will have to be worked out in Indian service. If India follows through on plans to build _INS Vishal_ as a CATOBAR carrier, the Navy will again have to learn an entirely new set of procedures, presumably with a new generation of aircraft, in the next decade.

The most interesting points to watch will be Indian collaboration with other carrier-operating navies. The obvious candidate is Russia, but Russia owns only one carrier, which operates at a relatively low temp and may shortly re-enter a prolonged refurbishment period. The only other navy to operate a similar carrier will, ironically, be the PLAN, which is unlikely to share many of its developing operational procedures with the Indian Navy. 

The risk of duplication of effort can surely be overstated; some of the tacit knowledge of naval aviation operations will carry over from the STOVL Viraat to the STOBAR Vikramaditya and Vikrant to the CATOBAR Vishal. However, “knowledge efficiency” and modularity do not appear to be strongly valued by the Indian Navy; beginning in 2018, it will operate three carriers of radically different age, design, and capability, and will likely maintain that state of affairs into the medium term (even after Vishal replaces Viraat).

Source:© 2013 The Diplomat. All Rights Reserved


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmm, I had absolutely NO idea the IN was thinking about putting these weapons on their warships! If true this is absolutely GREAT news, such an advanced and useful self-protection asset.
> 
> But will they be the Strales system? Ie with this automation and dart/illumination tracking or just regular OTO Melare 76s as on the Shivlaik class?
> 
> 
> @sancho, @Dillinger is this really true? Haven't seen/heard anything on this.



No real idea at the moment, if it is indeed the Strales though then it will be a beneficial addition specially against sea-skimmers which may need to be engaged up close and within a limited interception envelope. The Strales would also open up certain future opportunities (more on that later)...lets see.

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## Capt.Popeye

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> In-fact IMO, we will use these 2 AC's only to launch deep strikes into pakistan _(In case of full scale war)_ from the least secured border of Baluchistan on Iranian Border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at the map above, then you can realize that these AC's will give us Unique edge in case we plan to attack pakistan from two sides, without even worrying about Mid-Air Refueling of Fighter jets. In-fact we can simultaneously launch coordinated Air Offense from both Arabian sea _(INAF , 60+ Fighter Jets)_and mainland India _(IAF)._
> 
> _A_nd a coordinated offense from east and south will surprise the PAF with Already scattered resources.This is the only scenario i can think of about our Ac's getting used against PN, other-then that our surface fleet of western command is enough for one on one fight considering the current strength of PN.
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Dillinger @Vinod2070 @Capt.Popeye
> 
> Your views on above scenario ?


 

Interesting picture and scenario sketched out there..........hehehe.
For starters; something was alluded to by @Oscar elsewhere on another thread; I was impressed by his prescience (though it was in just a phrase or just two words). So I'd like to invite his views.
Much better than the "_tu-tu, main-main_" that is so rife otherwise.

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## Dillinger

AhaseebA said:


> Time to ask the Chinese for DF-21 ASBM seeker and guidance technology.



That would require a high res LEO sat grid for targeting, a larger grid than the deployed Chinese Yaogan (NOSS) constellation.


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## Capt.Popeye

Dillinger said:


> That would require a high res LEO sat grid for targeting, a larger grid than the deployed Chinese Yaogan (NOSS) constellation.


 
_C'mon yaar; do'nt break Farmer John's dreams_ !

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Interesting picture and scenario sketched out there..........hehehe.
> For starters; something was alluded to by @Oscar elsewhere on another thread; I was impressed by his prescience (though it was in just a phrase or just two words). So I'd like to invite his views.
> Much better than the "_tu-tu, main-main_" that is so rife otherwise.



Not sure what you are alluding to Cap.. ?


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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> _C'mon yaar; do'nt break Farmer John's dreams_ !



Well Ahaseeb is a yaar, he is well versed with missiles but the NOSS/targeting system particulars seems to be obscure details for a lot of people.

Although if its any solace to whichever John you encountered, we will see operational limitations being set upon us as we will have to run a robust BARCAP/"mig-screen" along with keeping the Kamovs in rotation for proper coverage, add to that a K or two with buddy refueling pods being sent up periodically or being kept on the deck for launch- its going to be high tempo/high sortie rate all the way for us..but not the wishful notion of scoring hits by simply sending up the thunders into the air as they imagine..


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Not sure what you are alluding to Cap.. ?


 
Refer back to a post that you put here on the step-motherly treatment meted out the PN; it was less than a week ago.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Refer back to a post that you put here on the step-motherly treatment meted out the PN; it was less than a week ago.


Cap. I have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to PDF.

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## kaykay

Dillinger said:


> That would require a high res LEO sat grid for targeting, a larger grid than the deployed Chinese Yaogan (NOSS) constellation.


somewher i have read that to target a moving carrier, so called carrier killer will need atleast 7 satellites or so. Not sure though.


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## Capt.Popeye

Dillinger said:


> Well Ahaseeb is a yaar, he is well versed with missiles but the NOSS/targeting system particulars seems to be obscure details for a lot of people.
> 
> Although if its any solace to whichever John you encountered, we will see operational limitations being set upon us as we will have to run a robust BARCAP/"mig-screen" along with keeping the Kamovs in rotation for proper coverage, add to that a K or two with buddy refueling pods being sent up periodically or being kept on the deck for launch- its going to be high tempo/high sortie rate all the way for us..but not the wishful notion of scoring hits by simply sending up the thunders into the air as they imagine..


 
Hell no; I was not referring to @AhaseebA at all. He can mix both knowledge and humor in equal parts. And come with a Great Cocktail/Mocktail !

I was referring to some others; whose views I responded to earlier. 


Oscar said:


> Cap. I have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to PDF.


 
Ah well; I do not kow what the memory of a Goldfish is; neither do I have the brains/intelligence of a Dolphin.
Ok; though I can't reproduce it here verbatim. You mentioned how lack of providing assets to PN could allow the SLOCs to be cut off _and _the vulnerability to amphibious attack.

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## Dillinger

kaykay said:


> somewher i have read that to target a moving carrier, so called carrier killer will need atleast 7 satellites or so. Not sure though.



Depends upon the scope and scale of the area under surveillance, it is no easy job that's for sure.

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## Capt.Popeye

Dillinger said:


> Depends upon the scope and scale of the area under surveillance, it is no easy job that's for sure.


 
That Sir; is some understatement !

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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> That Sir; is some understatement !



Well the Russians found that out the hard way with the US-A/P system. Although with advances in over the horizon radars who knows what might emerge by the next decade or the one after that.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Ah well; I do not kow what the *memory of a Goldfish* is; neither do I have the brains/intelligence of a Dolphin.
> Ok; though I can't reproduce it here verbatim. You mentioned how lack of providing assets to PN could allow the SLOCs to be cut off _and _the vulnerability to amphibious attack.



Not more than 3 seconds. 

But yes, the PN is the step child and also the most politically influenced(_and profitable_) branch of the Pak military(_usually by the PPP_). As such, I do not see anything new that the Vikramaditya could pull off using its air wings that MKIs out of Pune could not achieve as well. The range on the Sukhoi is enough for it to pull off the exact circumventing attack from the South or west on the PAF as the vikramaditya can achieve. However, the CVBG will have to first position itself(_where successful or not the move will be contested by PN sub surface assets_) and then be protected by destroyers that would be better off simply engaging the PN fleet and putting it out of action. In either case, having the Vikramaditya around also gives the PAF Mirage VPA's(and future JF-17s) a target to aim for.. and on the off chance they are successful at getting a swipe at it , it will lower the morale all around. Because in the end, it is the prize asset.. regardless of the many potent cavalry around..a hit to the Maharaja will have its effect. It is then better to only bring in the Vikramaditya to provide cover for amphibious assets once the PAF has been whittled down and driven back. Alternatively, the A/C on the carrier may be employed with the assets based on Bhuj or Naliya to keep the pressure on Mauripur(_This is a big base with the largest wing the PAF has_). But in that case ample room must be given to keep the Carrier out of strike range of PAF assets and that of PN Missile boats(there was a little something of an effort quite a while ago in the early 2000s to give target relaying ability to PN sub surface assets for the Missiles on the the PN Missile boat squadron, so a PN sub is a little more potent even if it does not show its fangs). Either way, any pincer via amphibious landing may achieve much less(_and have much lesser chances of success_) the further west they head. So whatever has to happen regarding that, it has to happen eastward of Karachi and specifically aiming towards the gap between Karachi and Hyderabad. 



A Naval blockade of Karachi is quite easy to achieve as such, but a total blockade of Pakistan not so. For that the IN has to push further west towards Ormara and Gwadar. While both of these will never be able to match the logistical input of Karachi.. they can keep weapon supplies from friendly states rolling in. 


Dillinger said:


> Well the Russians found that out the hard way with the US-A/P system. Although with advances in over the horizon radars who knows what might emerge by the next decade or the one after that.


That is question. The closer you bring a carrier to employ its strike assets, the more you risk exposing it to surveillance.

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> Not more than 3 seconds.
> 
> But yes, the PN is the step child and also the most politically influenced(_and profitable_) branch of the Pak military(_usually by the PPP_). As such, I do not see anything new that the Vikramaditya could pull off using its air wings that MKIs out of Pune could not achieve as well. The range on the Sukhoi is enough for it to pull off the exact circumventing attack from the South or west on the PAF as the vikramaditya can achieve. However, the CVBG will have to first position itself(_where successful or not the move will be contested by PN sub surface assets_) and then be protected by destroyers that would be better off simply engaging the PN fleet and putting it out of action. In either case, having the Vikramaditya around also gives the PAF Mirage VPA's(and future JF-17s) a target to aim for.. and on the off chance they are successful at getting a swipe at it , it will lower the morale all around. Because in the end, it is the prize asset.. regardless of the many potent cavalry around..a hit to the Maharaja will have its effect. It is then better to only bring in the Vikramaditya to provide cover for amphibious assets once the PAF has been whittled down and driven back. Alternatively, the A/C on the carrier may be employed with the assets based on Bhuj or Naliya to keep the pressure on Mauripur(_This is a big base with the largest wing the PAF has_). But in that case ample room must be given to keep the Carrier out of strike range of PAF assets and that of PN Missile boats(there was a little something of an effort quite a while ago in the early 2000s to give target relaying ability to PN sub surface assets for the Missiles on the the PN Missile boat squadron, so a PN sub is a little more potent even if it does not show its fangs). Either way, any pincer via amphibious landing may achieve much less(_and have much lesser chances of success_) the further west they head. So whatever has to happen regarding that, it has to happen eastward of Karachi and specifically aiming towards the gap between Karachi and Hyderabad.
> 
> 
> 
> A Naval blockade of Karachi is quite easy to achieve as such, but a total blockade of Pakistan not so. For that the IN has to push further west towards Ormara and Gwadar. While both of these will never be able to match the logistical input of Karachi.. they can keep weapon supplies from friendly states rolling in.
> That is question. The closer you bring a carrier to employ its strike assets, the more you risk exposing it to surveillance.



Ergo the larger K variant which was insisted upon by the IN, although I still don't want to take a chance- I would have preferred an Osprey based AEW&C with more range and endurance for our STOBAR boats (the only kind we've got ) so as to ensure better coverage (more powerful sensors too perhaps).


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## acid rain

AirRodgers said:


> An elite member attack the messenger and ignore what posted.



I am sure you havent heard of missile control regime.


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## acid rain

Vinod2070 said:


> As already mentioned, Pakistan is not the primary target for such potent platforms.



It doesnt make sense at all other than in a war we intend to use airpower from their South West, but then their whole territory is within range anyways.

I believe The CBG's are for patrolling our three seas and for force projections as well as increase our blue water navy credentials.


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## The Deterrent

Dillinger said:


> That would require a high res LEO sat grid for targeting, a larger grid than the deployed Chinese Yaogan (NOSS) constellation.



I was being funny!

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## Dillinger

AhaseebA said:


> I was being funny!



My sense of humor is dead, it rots away like a cadaver thrown away as refuse...being a Munshi will do that you.....


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmm, I had absolutely NO idea the IN was thinking about putting these weapons on their warships! If true this is absolutely GREAT news, such an advanced and useful self-protection asset.
> 
> But will they be the Strales system? Ie with this automation and dart/illumination tracking or just regular OTO Melare 76s as on the Shivlaik class?
> 
> 
> @sancho, @Dillinger is this really true? Haven't seen/heard anything on this.




It's not confirmed, but IN should seriously consider it over the regular ones.


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> It's not confirmed, but IN should seriously consider it over the regular ones.


If the IAC-1 will in fact have OTO Melare 76s on board then it would make sense for them to be configured for Strales.I mean to have them in a standard configuration seems entirely pointless when you consider the range is only around 25km and the IAC-1 is never going to get within 25km of a threat when it has escorts and its fighters. The days when warships would line up against each other and use naval guns to take on each other are LONG GONE. So with Strales in an AAD role is in the only realistic reason these weapons would be included onboard.

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## illusion8

Quite an interesting video on the recently tested LRASM from LM @Capt.Popeye, @Dillinger, @Abingdonboy , @Oscar.

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## Capt.Popeye

AhaseebA said:


> I was being funny!


 
Yes I know (if you were'nt then you'd better have been ); I quite like the cocktails/mocktails that you serve up from time to time. 


illusion8 said:


> Quite an interesting video on the recently tested LRASM from LM @Capt.Popeye, @Dillinger, @Abingdonboy , @Oscar.


 
Very slick video, with all the necessary CGI and..............................its from the US of A.


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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> Ergo the larger K variant which was insisted upon by the IN, although I still don't want to take a chance- I would have preferred an Osprey based AEW&C with more range and endurance for our STOBAR boats (the only kind we've got ) so as to ensure better coverage (more powerful sensors too perhaps).



Be that as it may, the air threat should not be taken as lightly as it is being presumed here. Its effectiveness as AD/A2 systems is still enough to create the probability and hence worry for fleet commanders.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Be that as it may, the air threat should not be taken as lightly as it is being presumed here. Its effectiveness as AD/A2 systems is still enough to create the probability and hence worry for fleet commanders.


 
An Air Threat can never be taken lightly. Is'nt that what caused the demise of the "Age of the Dreadnought/Battleship" ?


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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> Be that as it may, the air threat should not be taken as lightly as it is being presumed here. Its effectiveness as AD/A2 systems is still enough to create the probability and hence worry for fleet commanders.



Oh that it will, ergo the reason that I took great pains in my posts on the AKG thread to incorporate the possible methods which the PAF could employ to bypass or breach the BARCAP for example or what may happen in the eventuality of a saturation attack...its a classic case of one side overestimating the efficiency of a system and tactic and other underestimating it..


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## Abingdonboy

illusion8 said:


> Quite an interesting video on the recently tested LRASM from LM @Capt.Popeye, @Dillinger, @Abingdonboy , @Oscar.


Now THAT is how you do a PR video!!!


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> An Air Threat can never be taken lightly. Is'nt that what caused the demise of the "Age of the Dreadnought/Battleship" ?



Which is why even Phallic looking system such as the KH-15 or CM-400 is fairly potent when deployed. IMHO the employment may not be of one weapon system. And it is likely that a combination of AGM-84, C-802 and CM-400 is the employment method likely to be used in AD/A2 moves.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Which is why even Phallic looking system such as the KH-15 or CM-400 is fairly potent when deployed. IMHO the employment may not be of one weapon system. And it is likely that a combination of AGM-84, C-802 and CM-400 is the employment method likely to be used in AD/A2 moves.


 
That needs two things first; very good surveillance systems and very reliable delivery systems. 
And both of that in adequate strength/numbers.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> That needs two things first; very good surveillance systems and very reliable delivery systems.
> And both of that in adequate strength/numbers.



Surveillance may be assisted by P-3Cs as they have undergone quite an upgrade making them equal to the P-3C AIP program in the US. The APS-137 on board has been tested to pick up destroyer sized targets in moderate sea state with a mean 70nmi . Additionally the ZDK-03 systems have been designed with the sea in mind. The question then is not of surveillance capability, but of knowing where to look. That then depends on the whims of the FOC of the Indian western command and the deployment tactics.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Cap. I have the memory of a goldfish when it comes *to PDF*.



And women, I hope !  

Which means heres a glass to you being out there once more my Pakistani Don Juan brother !  

Achaaa Oscar eik question : How effective could mobile Land Based Missile Batteries be against the Aircraft Carrier & more so against Surface Vessels ?


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Surveillance may be assisted by P-3Cs as they have undergone quite an upgrade making them equal to the P-3C AIP program in the US. The APS-137 on board has been tested to pick up destroyer sized targets in moderate sea state with a mean 70nmi . Additionally the ZDK-03 systems have been designed with the sea in mind. The question then is not of surveillance capability, but of knowing where to look. That then depends on the whims of the FOC of the Indian western command and the deployment tactics.


 
Yes, of course. That is just the half of it. Then the question of delivery afer having located.
Then again throw the opposition's air-cover (which you had earlier alluded to) into the stew-pot.
That gets interseting as it progresses.

Air-Power (both for surveillance and for attack) has a large role in this particular scenario.


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## Darth Vader

American Pakistani said:


> Yes they are threat to Pakistan but Pakistan has invested in Carrier Killers as above member too has mentioned. For now these should be a threat to india's billion$ ACC's.
> 
> But I think in future Pakistan should try getting one.


It Will be OverKill FOR Pakistan we cant afford it nor we need it instead of buying 1 we cant buy way more frigates and destroyers which in long run can be more capable


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> And women, I hope !
> 
> Which means heres a glass to you being out there once more my Pakistani Don Juan brother !
> 
> Achaaa Oscar eik question : How effective could mobile Land Based Missile Batteries be against the Aircraft Carrier & more so against Surface Vessels ?



No, the Pind wali khatoon is unforgivable.. With women.. I hold grudges that would make India's problem with Hafiz Saeed look like friendly disagreement.

As for Land based missiles, they are effective as long as they can get to the Carrier and surface vessels and be provided with targeting information. Silkworm batteries are a famous example.. and the father of the Brahmos.. the P-800 is an example of an effective system like that today.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> No, the Pind wali khatoon is unforgivable.. With women.. *I hold grudges that would make India's problem with Hafiz Saeed look like friendly disagreement*.
> 
> As for Land based missiles, they are effective as long as they can get to the Carrier and surface vessels and be provided with targeting information. Silkworm batteries are a famous example.. and the father of the Brahmos.. the P-800 is an example of an effective system like that today.



Oh Allah Khair kareiiii !  

Yaraaa but wouldn't a mix & match of the C-802/3, C-400AKG , Babur, Ra'ad & a squadron of Mirages or Jf-17s at Gwadar or Pasni along with a SPADA 2000 or one of those Medium Ranged HQ series be able to make for a decent Blockade Denial Ability for our forces ?


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Oh Allah Khair kareiiii !
> 
> Yaraaa but wouldn't a mix & match of the C-802/3, C-400AKG , Babur, Ra'ad & a squadron of Mirages or Jf-17s at Gwadar or Pasni along with a SPADA 2000 or one of those Medium Ranged HQ series be able to make for a decent Blockade Denial Ability for our forces ?



For a while yes. The Babur and Ra'ad are both not yet capable of being used against shipping. The VPAs with their exocets are already dedicated to that role. When and If the JF-17's replace the F-7 squadron at Masroor they can undertake missions with both the C-802 and CM-400AKG. As such, the 5 P-3C Orions that we will have eventually will also be able to provide support with their Harpoons.. 
So it is still a respectable deterrent force. But the simply problem is, that it will be facing overwhelming odds(in case the Indian military planners play it right and not take it overly cautious)

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## Storm Force

Sending p3 orions and mirage 5 with cruise missles against a carrier with 24 mig29k on board is risk. Firstly u run the risk of fuel shortage or u wil need refullers. The carrier may be constantly moving yet retain a radius of 400km from pak shores. More importantly the mig29k bvr danger is huge...like I said earlier bigger more potent mmrca wil be better like j11. Or super hornets ....


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## Dillinger

Storm Force said:


> Sending p3 orions and mirage 5 with cruise missles against a carrier with 24 mig29k on board is risk. Firstly u run the risk of fuel shortage or u wil need refullers. The carrier may be constantly moving yet retain a radius of 400km from pak shores. More importantly the mig29k bvr danger is huge...like I said earlier bigger more potent mmrca wil be better like j11. Or super hornets ....



That is a given (albeit you need to furnish details in a better manner), but what @Oscar, @Capt.Popeye and me have been trying to clear up is as follows. Attacking an AC is akin to striking at a target within a dense ADGE, it is indeed risky and the chances of success depend upon many factors (flight profile adopted, ability to catch the CBG with surveillance). On the other hand defending against a determined air-attack is also not without its challenges, the chances of success depend upon many factors (ability of on-board AEW&C assets to detect low altitude intruders, ability of the CBG's defense system wrt dealing with a saturation attack). What we are trying to get across is that a lot of posters here need to look past their binary mode of looking at things and try to incorporate all the variables involved.

As such if I were to state that at a considerable distance off the shore of Pakistan, limiting the Fulcrums to a maritime and shore attack role, the AC would be quite safe and would have the requisite operational space within which to avoid detection by PN's aerial assets and set up an effective BARCAP- I would be largely correct.

IF @Oscar were to state that if the AC closes in and begins to be employed as a platform for launching deeper strikes into Pakistan, as it nears the engagement envelope of shore based over the horizon radars and the airspace in and around the Pakistani littorals the threat to the AC will be very high- he would be largely correct.

Now these contexts are super simplified, meant to convey the basic idea, but I thing you'll get the gist.

@Armstrong Why are you meandering around here and not on Naswar...

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## GURU DUTT

Armstrong said:


> Oh Allah Khair kareiiii !
> 
> Yaraaa but wouldn't a mix & match of the C-802/3, C-400AKG , Babur, Ra'ad & a squadron of Mirages or Jf-17s at Gwadar or Pasni along with a SPADA 2000 or one of those Medium Ranged HQ series be able to make for a decent Blockade Denial Ability for our forces ?


salaam bhai jaan 

well you will need new seakers and totally new gidence/radars in your Babu/Raad combo to make them an effective ASM while C-802/3 &C-400AKG can be threats if you could bring them close (say at least 200Km radius) to the CBG which again will have multi layeres ASEA based Radar shield backed my a huge innoventorry of LR/MR & SR missiles and CWG systems and backed by heli borne AWACs and a Squad of MIG29Ks with there own BVR, HARM & ALCMs..

and about your Gadwar & Pansi JF-17 will be already engaged by the land based assets(Pune/baroda/bangluru) of IAFs.. MKI s, M2K s , Jags & in future Rafale - FGFA combo not to forget all pakistani airspace is already scanned/tracked by indian ground and aerostat based radar systems

as for your Spada 2000 , HQ series well all owr airial assets have fairli most modern EW suits and they carry a wide variety of AA , SA , ASM & ARM missiles

so there is hardli PN & PAF can do to counter naval blockade onli thing you can do is make peace with india and that good for both nations

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## nomi007

MKI 30 said:


> So much trust on your anti ship missile. Many variables need to be considered and factor those in and it is not so easy. When situation demands sure it would be put to use but lets pray that day never comes. A basic objective of procuring such platforms is to deter the enemy form doing any misadventure. So in a way you could see it as a platform which deters the enemy attacking. And at the end of the day isn't it the only thing we want - PEACE. So dont wish for something that could be harmful for the whole region.


we trust in ALLAH not in weapons sir
your
*Vikramditya *lacks air defence system and it is easy to hit a big ship with march 4+ speed missile
proof
Livefist: Vikramaditya Done, Russia Wants To Help With New Vikrant
 


RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> In-fact IMO, we will use these 2 AC's only to launch deep strikes into pakistan _(In case of full scale war)_ from the least secured border of Baluchistan on Iranian Border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at the map above, then you can realize that these AC's will give us Unique edge in case we plan to attack pakistan from two sides, without even worrying about Mid-Air Refueling of Fighter jets. In-fact we can simultaneously launch coordinated Air Offense from both Arabian sea _(INAF , 60+ Fighter Jets)_and mainland India _(IAF)._
> 
> _A_nd a coordinated offense from east and south will surprise the PAF with Already scattered resources.This is the only scenario i can think of about our Ac's getting used against PN, other-then that our surface fleet of western command is enough for one on one fight considering the current strength of PN.
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Dillinger @Vinod2070 @Capt.Popeye
> 
> Your views on above scenario ?


sir u are going to attack on Pakistan not Somalia


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## GURU DUTT

nomi007 said:


> we trust in ALLAH not in weapons sir
> your
> *Vikramditya *lacks air defence system and it is easy to hit a big ship with march 4+ speed missile
> proof
> Livefist: Vikramaditya Done, Russia Wants To Help With New Vikrant
> 
> sir u are going to attack on Pakistan not Somalia


well sir "Vikrmaditya" as you think does have the best 3D/4D + ASEA based 400KM+ multi layered radar shield with a huge innoventorry of LR/MR&SR Sam batteries thanks to the multiple assets gaurding it like corvetts/cruisers & destroyers + there are 24 MIG29Ks with 850KM+ fighting radius withowt extrnal feul tanks and the deadli arsenell of AA/SA/ARM missiles & stand off wepons they carry that will neutralize any threats from your devine PAF if it ever tries to be adventureous while they will be supported by a bunch of Heliborne K31s AWACS

first tell me how will you neutralize them before having a chance to fire your supa-dupa ASMs at INS Vikramaditya

the hard fact is all you could do is hope that you never come in such a situation as IAFs Greenpines and other radars backed by MKIs + MIG29s & M2K9s & Jags will not let your F-16s and JF-17 venture even owt of there airbases and your dreaming of taking on CBGs

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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> we trust in ALLAH not in weapons sir
> your
> *Vikramditya *lacks air defence system and it is easy to hit a big ship with march 4+ speed missile
> proof
> Livefist: Vikramaditya Done, Russia Wants To Help With New Vikrant
> 
> sir u are going to attack on Pakistan not Somalia


 
LOLLL; then its time to disband your Army and turn all its soldiers into Mullas !!!!!
Kiyani can then become the Grand Mufti.



> sir u are going to attack on Pakistan not Somalia


 
Is there so much difference?

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## MKI 30

nomi007 said:


> we trust in ALLAH not in weapons sir
> your
> *Vikramditya *lacks air defence system and it is easy to hit a big ship with march 4+ speed missile
> proof
> Livefist: Vikramaditya Done, Russia Wants To Help With New Vikrant



Are you acting dumb? 

A AC never ventures out alone. It is well protected by a group of ships both above and under the surface. So first you have to breach the robust defence shield and even after that the chances of missile actually hitting the target is not 100% as the carrier can get mobile at good speeds. 

And you are talking as if Pakistan is readying its fleet to attack the Carrier on its way to India. LOL 

Please note it would not remain a sitting duck as you assume it to be and somewhere near 2017 the BARAK-8 system would be installed on the ship in addition to the CBG which you so conveniently forget.


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## IND151

AirRodgers said:


> Will just ask/try and buy the DF 21 ASBM, with its long range it will keep the Indian AC far away from Pakistani shore for them to be effective..



ASBM demands efficient Nox and several satellites permenatly providing surveillance of certain area; A report suggests if China wants to constantly monitor all SCS 24x7' it will require 18-20 sats.

Oblivious now you will know that ASBM is hyped weapon.


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## akand bharat

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir "Vikrmaditya" as you think does have the best 3D/4D + ASEA based 400KM+ multi layered radar shield with a huge innoventorry of LR/MR&SR Sam batteries thanks to the multiple assets gaurding it like corvetts/cruisers & destroyers + there are 24 MIG29Ks with 850KM+ fighting radius withowt extrnal feul tanks and the deadli arsenell of AA/SA/ARM missiles & stand off wepons they carry that will neutralize any threats from your devine PAF if it ever tries to be adventureous while they will be supported by a bunch of Heliborne K31s AWACS
> 
> first tell me how will you neutralize them before having a chance to fire your supa-dupa ASMs at INS Vikramaditya
> 
> the hard fact is all you could do is hope that you never come in such a situation as IAFs Greenpines and other radars backed by MKIs + MIG29s & M2K9s & Jags will not let your F-16s and JF-17 venture even owt of there airbases and your dreaming of taking on CBGs


YOU COMPLETLY OWNED HIM BROTHER

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## Nassr

It is indeed surprising that whenever warfare is being discussed in the South Asian ambiance, conventional balance is the only factor discussed. South Asia crossed the Nuclear Rubicon a long time ago and the environment which was tilted earlier in favour of conventional superiority has been superseded by the equation which is now balanced through nuclear deterrence. In the current and future environment nuclear factor determines the extant of conventional superiority and its application is determined by the extant of nuclear thresholds.

The strategy of choking the sea lanes of communications through use of ACCs of AC Battle Groups is a bygone in South Asian environment. The symbolism of possessing an ACC remains a mere symbolism in the future warfare between India and Pakistan. India can however use this capability for selective coercive application against target countries at high seas during the peace time, against non-nuclear littoral states for force projection, fighting piracy and provision of logistical support during humanitarian disasters etc.

This however does not stop the technology bugs from discussing hi-tech platforms which essentially remain technology demonstrators in possession of those who think that India becomes a world power by possessing a few big boats in seas dominated by much stronger extra-regional navies.

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## Dillinger

nomi007 said:


> we trust in ALLAH not in weapons sir
> your



Into divination much, @Oscar? Seems like someone is out to validate your post on the "Has the army learnt its lesson" thread.


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## Edevelop

Pakistan won't be buying aircraft carriers, at least not anytime soon. Lets face it. We are cash strapped and our Navy has always been inferior.

So how do we counter IAC Vikrant ?

In my view if we increase quantities of the assets we already have then we can become quite effective. This is just one method. I'm sure our military has thought of other ways also

Agosta Submarines






F-22P Frigrates






ZDK-03 AWACS






P3C Orion Maratime Patrol and Bomber





JF-17 Naval Block ? (Dual Seat, Enhanced Suite)





Ra'ad Air launched Cruise Missile







Babur Cruse Missile Naval Version






Exocet Anti-Shipping






C-802 Anti-Shipping




CM-400 Aircraft Carrier Killer

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## UKBengali

^^ Diesel powered submarines are not suited to hunt carriers as they are too slow.

The problem that Pakistan has with the Vikramdytia is that it has a formidable air-defences that comprise 24 Mig-29K fighters, 2 destoyers and 2 frigates that between then can simultaneously engage more than 30 targets.

It will be very difficult to penetrate the defences of the CVBG but not impossible.

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## kbd-raaf

@Oscar @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye

Have you fellas ever thought about doing up a naval/air wargame on these forums? It'd be interesting to say the least. Perhaps the Indians could roleplay the Pakistani side and vice versa.

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## acid rain

Nassr said:


> It is indeed surprising that whenever warfare is being discussed in the South Asian ambiance, conventional balance is the only factor discussed. South Asia crossed the Nuclear Rubicon a long time ago and the environment which was tilted earlier in favour of conventional superiority has been superseded by the equation which is now balanced through nuclear deterrence. In the current and future environment nuclear factor determines the extant of conventional superiority and its application is determined by the extant of nuclear thresholds.
> 
> The strategy of choking the sea lanes of communications through use of ACCs of AC Battle Groups is a bygone in South Asian environment. The symbolism of possessing an ACC remains a mere symbolism in the future warfare between India and Pakistan. India can however use this capability for selective coercive application against target countries at high seas during the peace time, against non-nuclear littoral states for force projection, fighting piracy and provision of logistical support during humanitarian disasters etc.
> 
> This however does not stop the technology bugs from discussing hi-tech platforms which essentially remain technology demonstrators in possession of those who think that India becomes a world power by possessing a few big boats in seas dominated by much stronger extra-regional navies.



I was actually surprised why no one's yet mentioned Pakistan's nuclear bums, so here it is now - an answer to everything is Pakistans nuclear bum. 

Nukes are weapons that are not meant for use because the day you use it will be your last day, but there's a hell of a lot that's in between before you fire your first nooklear bum.

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## Capt.Popeye

kbd-raaf said:


> @Oscar @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye
> 
> Have you fellas ever thought about doing up a naval/air wargame on these forums? It'd be interesting to say the least. Perhaps the Indians could roleplay the Pakistani side and vice versa.


 
Ain't there enough War-Games taking place here already? 
The idea is good but for a more serious and less futilely combative Forum.

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## Stealth

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir "Vikrmaditya" as you think does have the best 3D/4D + ASEA based 400KM+ multi layered radar shield with a huge innoventorry of LR/MR&SR Sam batteries thanks to the multiple assets gaurding it like corvetts/cruisers & destroyers + there are 24 MIG29Ks with 850KM+ fighting radius withowt extrnal feul tanks and the deadli arsenell of AA/SA/ARM missiles & stand off wepons they carry that will neutralize any threats from your devine PAF if it ever tries to be adventureous while they will be supported by a bunch of Heliborne K31s AWACS
> 
> first tell me how will you neutralize them before having a chance to fire your supa-dupa ASMs at INS Vikramaditya
> 
> the hard fact is all you could do is hope that you never come in such a situation as IAFs Greenpines and other radars backed by MKIs + MIG29s & M2K9s & Jags will not let your F-16s and JF-17 venture even owt of there airbases and your dreaming of taking on CBGs




lol posts like

I have a Car having spoiler, Nos, Turbo etc etc how you will beat my car ?? lol ****** post!

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## Alpha1

acid rain said:


> I was actually surprised why no one's yet mentioned Pakistan's nuclear bums, so here it is now - an answer to everything is Pakistans nuclear bum.
> 
> Nukes are weapons that are not meant for use because the day you use it will be your last day, but there's a hell of a lot that's in between before you fire your first nooklear bum.


Depends upon the size of the Nuke.. if you know what i mean

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## PoKeMon

Alpha1 said:


> Depends upon the size of the Nuke.. if you know what i mean



Size doesn't matter....if you know what Indian policy mean

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## Nassr

acid rain said:


> I was actually surprised why no one's yet mentioned Pakistan's nuclear bums, so here it is now - an answer to everything is Pakistans nuclear bum.
> 
> Nukes are weapons that are not meant for use because the day you use it will be your last day, but there's a hell of a lot that's in between before you fire your first nooklear bum.



It is not that. One can not discuss warfare without taking into account the existing environment in entirety. Pakistan's declared nuclear policy is first use, to deter the threat and use of conventional as well as nuclear weapons. Contrarily, the Indian policy revolves around a second strike and to deter the threat and use of nuclear and chemical (added later) weapons. It wants a free run for it superior conventional capability. 

For India nuclear weapons may only be meant for deterrence and not for use. Pakistan will use the nuclear weapons if certain nuclear thresholds are crossed. India should not have any doubt in this regard and this is also Pakistan's declared policy. 

And don't tell me now that whereas India would be able to absorb Pakistani first strike, Indian second strike would destroy Pakistan completely - this is a favourite and a misplaced Indian response. Probably the reason Pakistan is enhancing its nuclear capability is to acquire such a wherewithal which could also destroy India completely, encompassing the complete spectrum of conventional and nuclear environment. 

Therefore, whenever warfare in South Asia is discussed, do not forget that nuclear equation has become part and parcel of the overall environment and conclusions can not be arrived at unless this factor is weighed in.

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## GURU DUTT

Stealth said:


> lol posts like
> 
> I have a Car having spoiler, Nos, Turbo etc etc how you will beat my car ?? lol ****** post!


he he he he so thats the best answer you could come up with ..jalli jalli tappi tappi

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## CorporateAffairs

My Pak bros shouldnt be worried at all. These carriers are not for you. have some coffee and focus on your economy.

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## GURU DUTT

cb4 said:


> Pakistan won't be buying aircraft carriers, at least not anytime soon. Lets face it. We are cash strapped and our Navy has always been inferior.
> 
> So how do we counter IAC Vikrant ?
> 
> In my view if we increase quantities of the assets we already have then we can become quite effective. This is just one method. I'm sure our military has thought of other ways also
> 
> Agosta Submarines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-22P Frigrates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZDK-03 AWACS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P3C Orion Maratime Patrol and Bomber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 Naval Block ? (Dual Seat, Enhanced Suite)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ra'ad Air launched Cruise Missile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Babur Cruse Missile Naval Version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exocet Anti-Shipping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C-802 Anti-Shipping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CM-400 Aircraft Carrier Killer


he he he he well for your subs we have P8Is & Ka25-31

for your proposed navan block JF17s and C-802 & CM 400 combo + raad & babur we have owr owr MIG29Ks & Naval LCAs + MKIs & Jags with there AA/SA/ASM backed by multi layered Indian/french/israeli & russian 2D / 3D / 4D Land & arial based radar systems which again are backed by systems like Akash/SA2/S 300PMU & S-400 + Spyder/Maitri & YASHROD and soon to be added Barack LR/MR &SR SA batteries in huge numbers that you could onli dream of 

now tell me will you get past them as you niether have the numbers nor the Technickal upper hand over us


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## Stealth

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he he well for your subs we have P8Is & Ka25-31
> 
> for your proposed navan block JF17s and C-802 & CM 400 combo + raad & babur we have owr owr MIG29Ks & Naval LCAs + MKIs & Jags with there AA/SA/ASM backed by multi layered Indian/french/israeli & russian 2D / 3D / 4D Land & arial based radar systems which again are backed by systems like Akash/SA2/S 300PMU & S-400 + Spyder/Maitri & YASHROD and soon to be added Barack LR/MR &SR SA batteries in huge numbers that you could onli dream of
> 
> now tell me will you get past them as you niether have the numbers nor the Technickal upper hand over us



Tu phir abhe hamla kardooona muna pakistan pe hamla intezaar kis cheez ka hey ?? LOLz use tarhan jesay surgical strike honay wali the ?

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## GURU DUTT

we


Stealth said:


> Tu phir abhe hamla kardooona muna pakistan pe hamla intezaar kis cheez ka hey ?? LOLz use tarhan jesay surgical strike honay wali the ?


well bhai himmat aur befkoofi me faraq hota hai aur hum hindustani ye faraq achee tarah jante hain aur sahee mauke pe sahi jagah chot kerte hain aur aisa hamne kai baar kiya hai apke saath chinta mat karo jab sahi waqt ayega to wo guzarish bhi poori ker denge apki aur apke apne dosto se hi apko ye sabaq dilwayenge ...
recent example USA(your so called ''freinds not masters) and what it is doing in your own country and your establishemnt is showing criminal sielence over it ...hope u got my point sir

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## PiyaraPakistan

Storm Force said:


> I think the only carriers that have ever been sunk have occurred in World War 2 and that was by air strikes ...
> 
> *Cruise missles i think may and can sink a 4000 tonne frigate
> 
> But a 40,000 tonne carrier packed with MIG29K awacs helo support & anti missle systems & SAMS will be a tall order.*
> 
> This TALL ORDER become more difficult when you consider the following
> 
> BBC News - India launches first defence satellite GSAT-7
> 
> Dedicated Naval satalite operrational; since August 2013 GSTAT 7
> 
> The carriers at present will be protected by upto 5 of the following types with one support ship
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy's CBG usually consists of two destroyers (usually of the _Delhi_ class, previously _Kashin_s were used) and two or more frigates, (usually a combination of _Brahmaputra_, _Talwar_ or _Shivalik_ classes) and one support ship.[_citation needed_]
> 
> Personally if i was Advising Pakistani Response i would get 2 Sqds of 36 J11 flankers


Bhai storm force for bold and underlined part,sinking an 40000 ACC is not the purpose, by partially damage it we can easily send your super duper ACC to home for sick leave. 
Our carrier killer missile can sink your 40000 ACC, if you are not agree with that then lay a samnay apna ACC hum nashana laga ker try ker letay hen ager na dooba to sorry ker len gay.


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## PiyaraPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> we
> 
> well bhai himmat aur befkoofi me faraq hota hai aur hum hindustani ye faraq achee tarah jante hain aur sahee mauke pe sahi jagah chot kerte hain aur aisa hamne kai baar kiya hai apke saath chinta mat karo jab sahi waqt ayega to wo guzarish bhi poori ker denge apki aur apke apne dosto se hi apko ye sabaq dilwayenge ...
> recent example USA(your so called ''freinds not masters) and what it is doing in your own country and your establishemnt is showing criminal sielence over it ...hope u got my point sir


as a common citizen we have never ever claimed that American GOVTs are our friends, for your dhamki, play positive role for peaceful neighborhood warna hum kertay ziada hen oh kehtay kum hen.


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## GURU DUTT

PiyaraPakistan said:


> as a common citizen we have never ever claimed that American GOVTs are our friends, for your dhamki, play positive role for peaceful neighborhood warna hum kertay ziada hen oh kehtay kum hen.


well hamne bare achhe se dekha hai apke kehne aur kerne ko ..khair wo ek doosri behes hai pakistan ko apni aukat samjhani chaiye aur apni hudood me rehker faisle kerne chaiye jisse uski mahashi taraqi ho na ki unse apna ghar to sambhalta nahi aur hum ko fateh kerne ke khwaab poore kerne ke liye pange lete rehte hain aapke apno ne 1948 me pange na liye hote to aaj kashmir apka hota 
apke apne field marshal ne operation gibralter aur grand slam na kia hota to na to 1965 ki jang hoti aur aj hindustan aur pakistan dono achhe doston ki tarah mil ke taraqi ker rehe hote ...

pehle panga apne 1965 liye ki jiska jawab hamne apko 1971 me sood samet de diye fir apne 1999 me panga liya aur jiska hisab aaj abhi tak chukka rahe hain socho jab ABV bus leke lahore dosti ka paigam leke gaya tha agar tab aapke generals kargil na kerte to dubara kashmir ka masla sulajh hi chukka tha per kya hua aur uska kya nateeja nikla (nawaz had to go to washington with begging bowl for cease fire & USA became suspecious of you and came to owr fold and still helping us with economy and millitarry/wepons while killing your people in your own land)

so brother hum apni aukat jante hain aur waqt ke hirab se faisle kerte hain jabki aaj pakistan ka haal ye hai "na to karwan hi milla na wasal E sanam na idhar ke rahe na udhar ke hum"

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## PiyaraPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> well hamne bare achhe se dekha hai apke kehne aur kerne ko ..khair wo ek doosri behes hai pakistan ko apni aukat samjhani chaiye aur apni hudood me rehker faisle kerne chaiye jisse uski mahashi taraqi ho na ki unse apna ghar to sambhalta nahi aur hum ko fateh kerne ke khwaab poore kerne ke liye pange lete rehte hain aapke apno ne 1948 me pange na liye hote to aaj kashmir apka hota
> apke apne field marshal ne operation gibralter aur grand slam na kia hota to na to 1965 ki jang hoti aur aj hindustan aur pakistan dono achhe doston ki tarah mil ke taraqi ker rehe hote ...
> 
> pehle panga apne 1965 liye ki jiska jawab hamne apko 1971 me sood samet de diye fir apne 1999 me panga liya aur jiska hisab aaj abhi tak chukka rahe hain socho jab ABV bus leke lahore dosti ka paigam leke gaya tha agar tab aapke generals kargil na kerte to dubara kashmir ka masla sulajh hi chukka tha per kya hua aur uska kya nateeja nikla (nawaz had to go to washington with begging bowl for cease fire & USA became suspecious of you and came to owr fold and still helping us with economy and millitarry/wepons while killing your people in your own land)
> 
> so brother hum apni aukat jante hain aur waqt ke hirab se faisle kerte hain jabki aaj pakistan ka haal ye hai "na to karwan hi milla na wasal E sanam na idhar ke rahe na udhar ke hum"


O bhai ap phir ziada keh gai ho, ab ager me is k against kuch kahoo ga ya koi or members from both sides a ker involve ho jayen gay to bat bohat lambi ho jaye, ap nay history ko apni ainak(Glasses) say dekha lakin history totally is k against hai, ap MashaAllah senior member hen bachon wali dhamkian na den. ager hum friendship mod me hen to isey change kernay ke koshish na keren, Allhamdulilah i am true Pakistani and i love my country, similarly you true indian and love india, ab hum apni countries say piyar he jatatay rahen gay ya kuch humanity ka bhi sochen gay?. Humen apni History ke buri yadon ko bhulana hai lakin heroes ko nahi.

now come to the topic. Pakistan can sink the Indian ACC.


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## MKI 30

PiyaraPakistan said:


> now come to the topic. Pakistan can sink the Indian ACC.



Wow what a comeback to the topic. Pakistan can only damage Indian carrier if it breaks the robust defence shield. So do tell me how you plan to achieve this?

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## GURU DUTT

PiyaraPakistan said:


> O bhai ap phir ziada keh gai ho, ab ager me is k against kuch kahoo ga ya koi or members from both sides a ker involve ho jayen gay to bat bohat lambi ho jaye, ap nay history ko apni ainak(Glasses) say dekha lakin history totally is k against hai, ap MashaAllah senior member hen bachon wali dhamkian na den. ager hum friendship mod me hen to isey change kernay ke koshish na keren, Allhamdulilah i am true Pakistani and i love my country, similarly you true indian and love india, ab hum apni countries say piyar he jatatay rahen gay ya kuch humanity ka bhi sochen gay?. Humen apni History ke buri yadon ko bhulana hai lakin heroes ko nahi.
> 
> now come to the topic. Pakistan can sink the Indian ACC.


well bhai jaan history ka sirf ek hi angle hotahai aur usko sirf ek hi paimane se napa jata hai

history hamesha vijeta likhta hai aur hone wale kissi bhi hadse ya shahkaar ki buniyad me kuch maqasid hoten hain aur dono hi pehlu apni jagah sahi hain per tareekh me wahi vijeta hoten hain jo apne makasid poore kerne ke liye imandari aur mehnat ka sahara lete hain baki behes bari lambi hai ...choro jane do aap apne ghar khush ham apne ghar khush ..jhagra kis baat ka hai 

rahi baat "topic=indian ACC" ki to bhai hamne usse hasil kerne ke liye bari lambi aur hadson se bhara rasta paar kiya hai aap ka maqsad hai use tabah kerna per aap use hasil kaise karoge kyonki aapki mashihat ki kya halat hai aap hamse achi tarah jante ho na aapke paas hamse jyada tadat hai aurn nahi technical superiorty aur na hi wasail ..achha isse me hai ki apka mulk bharat se sulah ker le aur apni mahashi aur samajick tarakee me poori taqat aur akl lagaye ...jitni taqat aur akal pichle 66 salon me pakistan ne bharat se kashmir hatiyane aur bharat ko neecha dikhane aur takleef pahunchane me lagayee thi usse adha bhi ausne apni quwam /masheehat aur riyaya ki taraqi me lagayee hoti to aaj pakistan ka duniya me kuch aur hi makam hota baki ...good luck for future

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## PiyaraPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai jaan history ka sirf ek hi angle hotahai aur usko sirf ek hi paimane se napa jata hai
> 
> history hamesha vijeta likhta hai aur hone wale kissi bhi hadse ya shahkaar ki buniyad me kuch maqasid hoten hain aur dono hi pehlu apni jagah sahi hain per tareekh me wahi vijeta hoten hain jo apne makasid poore kerne ke liye imandari aur mehnat ka sahara lete hain baki behes bari lambi hai ...choro jane do aap apne ghar khush ham apne ghar khush ..jhagra kis baat ka hai
> 
> rahi baat "topic=indian ACC" ki to bhai hamne usse hasil kerne ke liye bari lambi aur hadson se bhara rasta paar kiya hai aap ka maqsad hai use tabah kerna per aap use hasil kaise karoge kyonki aapki mashihat ki kya halat hai aap hamse achi tarah jante ho na aapke paas hamse jyada tadat hai aurn nahi technical superiorty aur na hi wasail ..achha isse me hai ki apka mulk bharat se sulah ker le aur apni mahashi aur samajick tarakee me poori taqat aur akl lagaye ...jitni taqat aur akal pichle 66 salon me pakistan ne bharat se kashmir hatiyane aur bharat ko neecha dikhane aur takleef pahunchane me lagayee thi usse adha bhi ausne apni quwam /masheehat aur riyaya ki taraqi me lagayee hoti to aaj pakistan ka duniya me kuch aur hi makam hota baki ...*good luck for future*


*On Topic-* Bhai is me koi doubt nahi k aj ap(India) jis stage per ho ap logon nay baray papar belay hon gay jo k bohat achi cheez hai. Rahi bat ACC ko Tabah kernay ke to is me Pakistan ke Financial condition ka koi taluq nahi humen ye kernay k liye sirf Carrier killer missile chahiye wo hamary pas hai, Hamari submarine inventory bohat achi hai or hum mazeed acha bananay ke koshish ker rahey hen.
*Kashmir*- Suppose kal ap ka koi hukmaran a ker india ke kisi state ko paisey lay ker kisi third party ko bech day to kia ap indians agree ker lo gay- Mera khyal hai bilkul nahi. is Say ziada mujhay or kuch nahi kehna is baray me. 
*Good Relationship with India*- Hum logon nay to bari koshish ke lakin ap logon ke taraf say ziada acha response nahi milta, achay relations k liye pehley zaroori muslon ka hal zaroori hai belive me jub yeh Masalay hul ho jayen gay to Pakistan India ke dosti bhi dushmani ke tarha Masali(Example) ho ge. 
Thanks for the bold part in your post.


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## GURU DUTT

[/quote]
well bhai


PiyaraPakistan said:


> *On Topic-* Bhai is me koi doubt nahi k aj ap(India) jis stage per ho ap logon nay baray papar belay hon gay jo k bohat achi cheez hai. Rahi bat ACC ko Tabah kernay ke to is me Pakistan ke Financial condition ka koi taluq nahi humen ye kernay k liye sirf Carrier killer missile chahiye wo hamary pas hai, Hamari submarine inventory bohat achi hai or hum mazeed acha bananay ke koshish ker rahey hen.
> *Kashmir*- Suppose kal ap ka koi hukmaran a ker india ke kisi state ko paisey lay ker kisi third party ko bech day to kia ap indians agree ker lo gay- Mera khyal hai bilkul nahi. is Say ziada mujhay or kuch nahi kehna is baray me.
> *Good Relationship with India*- Hum logon nay to bari koshish ke lakin ap logon ke taraf say ziada acha response nahi milta, achay relations k liye pehley zaroori muslon ka hal zaroori hai belive me jub yeh Masalay hul ho jayen gay to Pakistan India ke dosti bhi dushmani ke tarha Masali(Example) ho ge.
> Thanks for the bold part in your post.


pehli baat bhai jaan ACC kabhi bhi akela nahi nikalta uske saath 2 destroyers + 2 cruisers+2 frigates + 2 submariens + 1 supply ship+1 feul tanker hota hai aur her tayyarre per uska khud ke multiple band PESA & ASEA -2D/3D radar systems (with 400KM+track and scan capability )+ anty ASM & Anty Aircraft LR/MR & SR missile batteries hotin hain + not to forget hmare vikrmaditya per 24 MIG29Ks aur 10 ASW and AWACS helicopters bhi hain jo kissi bhi fizai khatre se larne me aur dushman ko uske ghar me ghuske marne ke liye hi tainaat kiye gaye hain aur hamare paas inki tadaat apse kaheen zyaada hain aur hame CBGs ko oprate aur mentain kerte hue 50 saal se jyada arsa ho chukka hai to zara batayenge ki aap isse kiss tarah nuksan pahuncha sakte hain

mana apke paas carrier killer ASM aur larakoo fizai tayyarre hain per aap unko killer zone me dakhil kaise karayenge kyonki unhe apne target tak pahunchane ke liye apke laraku tayyaron ko kam se kam 200 KM radius me aana parega

rahi baat submariens ki to bhai indian CBG ke saath filhaal 2 Kilo class submariens hain jabki apki submariens ko marne ke liye hamamre CBG me 5 K31 anty sub & AWAC helicopters + hamne P8I bhi hasil ker liya hai jiski taqat apke PC3 orions se teen gunne se bhi jyada hai

ab rahi baat kashmir ki to galat ho ya sahi kashmir baharat ka attoot ang hai aur wo to hum apko denge nahi agar kashmirion ka itna hi khayal hai to hum unko azad kashmir me rehabilitate kerwane me apki maddat zaroor ker akte hain agar apko manzoor ho to

baki rahi dosti ki baat to bhai koshish to hamne kai baar ki per her baar aapke ayyar fitrat kee establishment ne hamari peeth me churra bhonka recent exdample ABV taking BUS to lahore for peace and your genreelas indruding into kargil during the winter cease fire and when there asses got whopped left right and centre they begged USa to intervien and had to vacate indian peaks


so tell me how will some one trust suxcch an adverseri still we tried to be good with you but then again 26/11 happenned and more than 200+ innocent civilians were butchered in cold blood by pakistani born & trained so called "non state actors"

bhai dosti kerni hai to ab apko hamri terms pe karni hogi warna wahi hota rahega jo aaj badkismati se pakistan me ho raha hai

baki on personal note aagar hum achhe dost ben ker nahi reh sakte to achhe parosi to banke reh hi sakte hain per Pak Fauj ki terms per nahi hamari terms per


baki Good Luck

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## PiyaraPakistan

*well bhai

pehli baat bhai jaan ACC kabhi bhi akela nahi nikalta uske saath 2 destroyers + 2 cruisers+2 frigates + 2 submariens + 1 supply ship+1 feul tanker hota hai aur her tayyarre per uska khud ke multiple band PESA & ASEA -2D/3D radar systems (with 400KM+track and scan capability )+ anty ASM & Anty Aircraft LR/MR & SR missile batteries hotin hain + not to forget hmare vikrmaditya per 24 MIG29Ks aur 10 ASW and AWACS helicopters bhi hain jo kissi bhi fizai khatre se larne me aur dushman ko uske ghar me ghuske marne ke liye hi tainaat kiye gaye hain aur hamare paas inki tadaat apse kaheen zyaada hain aur hame CBGs ko oprate aur mentain kerte hue 50 saal se jyada arsa ho chukka hai to zara batayenge ki aap isse kiss tarah nuksan pahuncha sakte hain

mana apke paas carrier killer ASM aur larakoo fizai tayyarre hain per aap unko killer zone me dakhil kaise karayenge kyonki unhe apne target tak pahunchane ke liye apke laraku tayyaron ko kam se kam 200 KM radius me aana parega

rahi baat submariens ki to bhai indian CBG ke saath filhaal 2 Kilo class submariens hain jabki apki submariens ko marne ke liye hamamre CBG me 5 K31 anty sub & AWAC helicopters + hamne P8I bhi hasil ker liya hai jiski taqat apke PC3 orions se teen gunne se bhi jyada hai

ab rahi baat kashmir ki to galat ho ya sahi kashmir baharat ka attoot ang hai aur wo to hum apko denge nahi agar kashmirion ka itna hi khayal hai to hum unko azad kashmir me rehabilitate kerwane me apki maddat zaroor ker akte hain agar apko manzoor ho to

baki rahi dosti ki baat to bhai koshish to hamne kai baar ki per her baar aapke ayyar fitrat kee establishment ne hamari peeth me churra bhonka recent exdample ABV taking BUS to lahore for peace and your genreelas indruding into kargil during the winter cease fire and when there asses got whopped left right and centre they begged USa to intervien and had to vacate indian peaks


so tell me how will some one trust suxcch an adverseri still we tried to be good with you but then again 26/11 happenned and more than 200+ innocent civilians were butchered in cold blood by pakistani born & trained so called "non state actors"

bhai dosti kerni hai to ab apko hamri terms pe karni hogi warna wahi hota rahega jo aaj badkismati se pakistan me ho raha hai

baki on personal note aagar hum achhe dost ben ker nahi reh sakte to achhe parosi to banke reh hi sakte hain per Pak Fauj ki terms per nahi hamari terms per
baki Good Luck[/quote]*

Bhai, pehli bat frankly speaking ap k ACC say kuch na kuch to threat hai lakin is k against Pakistan nay kia CAPA (Corrective action, Preventive action) liye hen is ka jawab ap ko bhi pata hai or mujhay bhi, We have all our trust on our Army that’s why we have absolutely no worry/tension about any type of threat at least from your side. Detail me nahi jatay ager hamaray defence me kuch halka sa bhi gap hota to ap zaroor attack kertay, ya phir himat nahi hai ye hap ka matter hai ap ko hi pata ho ga. Hum nay bari machli (Your ACC) ko he kaboo kerna hai remaning kam ap ki himat tootnay say ho jaye ga. Abhi jo ander khatay Pakistan navy k liye ho raha wo to ap ko count kerwanay ke zaroorat he nahi MashAllah ap meri tarha kafi intelligent lagtey ho.


Wasay ap nay Kashmir per meray Question ka theek say jawab nahi dia, bari chalaki say gol ker gai hen. Chalo ap billions kharch kertay raho Kashmir per qabza kernay me, hum thora sa intizar ker letay hen, piyaray bhai hum mer to saktay hen lakin IOK ko kabhi nahi choren gay.


Ap hamari terha apni sari bat Pakistan per keu dal detay ho, don’t forget dosti train service, Dirty Game behind NewDelhi/Mumbai attack, and many many more. Wasay ap k Name say Sanjay Dutt yad a gia jis per Bomb blasts me madad kernay ka ilzam hai, doosron per ilzam kum dia keren or apna gher theek keren bhai.


Wasay bhai wo log bohat achay hotey hen jo apni country say bohat ziada piyar kertay ap bhi aik asey he insan ho.


Take care bye.


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## GURU DUTT

PiyaraPakistan said:


> Bhai, pehli bat frankly speaking ap k ACC say kuch na kuch to threat hai lakin is k against Pakistan nay kia CAPA (Corrective action, Preventive action) liye hen is ka jawab ap ko bhi pata hai or mujhay bhi, We have all our trust on our Army that’s why we have absolutely no worry/tension about any type of threat at least from your side. Detail me nahi jatay ager hamaray defence me kuch halka sa bhi gap hota to ap zaroor attack kertay, ya phir himat nahi hai ye hap ka matter hai ap ko hi pata ho ga. Hum nay bari machli (Your ACC) ko he kaboo kerna hai remaning kam ap ki himat tootnay say ho jaye ga. Abhi jo ander khatay Pakistan navy k liye ho raha wo to ap ko count kerwanay ke zaroorat he nahi MashAllah ap meri tarha kafi intelligent lagtey ho.
> 
> 
> Wasay ap nay Kashmir per meray Question ka theek say jawab nahi dia, bari chalaki say gol ker gai hen. Chalo ap billions kharch kertay raho Kashmir per qabza kernay me, hum thora sa intizar ker letay hen, piyaray bhai hum mer to saktay hen lakin IOK ko kabhi nahi choren gay.
> 
> 
> Ap hamari terha apni sari bat Pakistan per keu dal detay ho, don’t forget dosti train service, Dirty Game behind NewDelhi/Mumbai attack, and many many more. Wasay ap k Name say Sanjay Dutt yad a gia jis per Bomb blasts me madad kernay ka ilzam hai, doosron per ilzam kum dia keren or apna gher theek keren bhai.
> 
> 
> Wasay bhai wo log bohat achay hotey hen jo apni country say bohat ziada piyar kertay ap bhi aik asey he insan ho.
> 
> 
> Take care bye.


well bhai apki fauj sirf peeth peeche war ker sakti hai aur uske genrals sirf golf khel sakte hain ya shadi haals , petrol pumps & bakeries ka mangement dekh sakte hain ...agar unme jara bhi quuwaat aur ghairat hoti to mana kerne per bhi drone attacks ke baad sarwe drones jo pakistani ser zameen se urthe hain unhe tabah ker dete per unhone kya kiya , unhone kya ker liya slalllaa aur raymond davis affair ke baad

bhai ji hum aap per attack kyon karenm uska fayeda kya milega humko aur jab hamara kaam khud apke so called "strategick assets " & "freinds not masters" ker rahe hain to hum apne haath kyon gande karen 

rahi baat bari machali= INS vikrmaditya ko kabu/tabah kerne ki to bhai roka kisne hain koshish ker ke dekh lo apko apnee aukat khud pata chal jayegi 

rahi baat kashmir ki to pichle 66 saalon me apne apna adha mulk to gawa hi diya hai gilgit aur balistan aur baloochistan ka adha hissa to chinio ke paas 50 saal ke liye girvi para hai KPK aur FATA apse sambhale nahi sambhal rahe aur aapka sara zor kashmir hasil kerne pe ..achhee baat yoonhi lage raho hamara kaam aur asaan bana rahe ho aap 

hum pakistan ko fateh kerke kya bhuute bhoonenge jabki apke under hi to sabse bara bomb haio wo apki barbaadi ke liye kafee hai (sectairinism,relegeous inolrence , corruoption,poverty & population explosion) hame to bas apko bekar ki baaton me uljhaye rakhna hai aur ye kaam aap log poori shiddat aur mehnat se ker rahe ho ...lage raho ji 

now abou guru dutt well he is my most admired and loved cine director and actor of bollywood 

Guru Dutt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

on the other hand i never like sanjay dutt though sunil dutt his father had his own class 

now about mumbai well remeber tassawurr rana and dawood gilllani / richard hadley well if you dont know about them its even better 

what your so called "non state actors " did in mumbai on 26/11 well we killed 9 owt of ten terrorist and captured one(ajmal qasab= resident of faridkoat punjab) and used him to his full potential to show the real face of PA /ISI and your nation is still paying the dividents for that(like if you have ever been to a eourpean or US airport)

so bhai hum hindustani hain aur hamare hamle kerne ka aur badla lene ka bhi andaz alag hai jo apko tab samjh aata hai jab aap sab kuch kho chukke hote ho ab bhi dushmani kerni hai to 100 bar bismillah

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## nair

@GURU DUTT bhai english mein likho.... Padna mushkil hora ha hein....

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## Penguin

MKI 30 said:


> Wow what a comeback to the topic. Pakistan can only damage Indian carrier if it breaks the robust defence shield. So do tell me how you plan to achieve this?


Submarines with wake homing torps and anti-ship missiles will do quite nicely. While I can't follow the above discussion, I get the impression that there is a lot of talk about sensors. Please do not confuse sensor and weapon range with zone of control: in operational reality actual control and kill capability is much more limited i.e. by natural circumstances.

Meanwhile, wasn't the main forum language English (so more nationalities can participate in discussion)?

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## Penguin

UKBengali said:


> ^^ Diesel powered submarines are not suited to hunt carriers as they are too slow.
> 
> The problem that Pakistan has with the Vikramdytia is that it has a formidable air-defences that comprise 24 Mig-29K fighters, 2 destoyers and 2 frigates that between then can simultaneously engage more than 30 targets.
> 
> It will be very difficult to penetrate the defences of the CVBG but not impossible.


Pay attention: why do you think USN leased a Swedish conventional diesel powered submarine?
In a defensive scenario, you don't go hunting (chasing) a carrier group but you position yourself where the carrier group is likely to appear and patrol. SS(K)s are VERY effective against surface ships as they are more quiet than SSNs.

30 targets isn't al that much: 10 Mirage fighters with 1 AShM each, plus a pair of MPA's with 4 AShM each, a frigate with 8 AShM, a submarine with 4 AShM. Use JF-17 and you can have 5 jets with 10 AShM and 5 jets flying shotgun. Throw in 1 more frigate and 1 more submarine and you have 42 missile targets (plus 2 submarines lurking afterwards with torpedos). Add a pair of Azmat missile boats for some additional complexity. Add some low level strike aircraft armed with stand-off PGMs and pretty soon you're group is really busy fending for itself (i.e. not being used offensively).

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## MKI 30

Penguin said:


> Submarines with wake homing torps and anti-ship missiles will do quite nicely.



Yes Submarines remain the most preferred option, but does pakistan have the required Submarines for that? My knowledge of submarines is limited so could you please explain if the objective could be achieved by the current PN Subs and do take into account the future ones they are to induct.


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## UKBengali

Penguin said:


> Pay attention: why do you think USN leased a Swedish conventional diesel powered submarine?
> In a defensive scenario, you don't go hunting (chasing) a carrier group but you position yourself where the carrier group is likely to appear and patrol. SS(K)s are VERY effective against surface ships as they are more quiet than SSNs.
> 
> 30 targets isn't al that much: 10 Mirage fighters with 1 AShM each, plus a pair of MPA's with 4 AShM each, a frigate with 8 AShM, a submarine with 4 AShM. Use JF-17 and you can have 5 jets with 10 AShM and 5 jets flying shotgun. Throw in 1 more frigate and 1 more submarine and you have 42 missile targets (plus 2 submarines lurking afterwards with torpedos). Add a pair of Azmat missile boats for some additional complexity. Add some low level strike aircraft armed with stand-off PGMs and pretty soon you're group is really busy fending for itself (i.e. not being used offensively).



You forgot the 24 Mig-29Ks in your analysis.


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## Srinivas

Penguin said:


> Pay attention: why do you think USN leased a Swedish conventional diesel powered submarine?
> In a defensive scenario, you don't go hunting (chasing) a carrier group but you position yourself where the carrier group is likely to appear and patrol. SS(K)s are VERY effective against surface ships as they are more quiet than SSNs.
> 
> 30 targets isn't al that much: 10 Mirage fighters with 1 AShM each, plus a pair of MPA's with 4 AShM each, a frigate with 8 AShM, a submarine with 4 AShM. Use JF-17 and you can have 5 jets with 10 AShM and 5 jets flying shotgun. Throw in 1 more frigate and 1 more submarine and you have 42 missile targets (plus 2 submarines lurking afterwards with torpedos). Add a pair of Azmat missile boats for some additional complexity. Add some low level strike aircraft armed with stand-off PGMs and pretty soon you're group is really busy fending for itself (i.e. not being used offensively).



CBG's are integrated to Satellites as well. CBG's will try to avoid such a massive confrontation scenarios, CBG's have their war doctrines related to these kind of scenarios and how to avoid them. The Frigates and destroyers have more fire power as well as close range automated guns.
At any given day CBG group is expected to have more fire power than the adversary, if the scenario is different then CBG's avoid confrontation and opt for defensive maneuvers.

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## Penguin

UKBengali said:


> You forgot the 24 Mig-29Ks in your analysis.



No, just have to time the packages to arrive at a time when the Mig29K's are out doing something else (e.g. responding to a diversion) and jam the crap out of them and everybody else. 


MKI 30 said:


> Yes Submarines remain the most preferred option, but does pakistan have the required Submarines for that? My knowledge of submarines is limited so could you please explain if the objective could be achieved by the current PN Subs and do take into account the future ones they are to induct.


Nothing wrong with the subs PN has got AFAIK

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## Penguin

Srinivas said:


> CBG's are integrated to Satellites as well. CBG's will try to avoid such a massive confrontation scenarios, CBG's have their war doctrines related to these kind of scenarios and how to avoid them. The Frigates and destroyers have more fire power as well as close range automated guns.
> At any given day CBG group is expected to have more fire power than the adversary, if the scenario is different then CBG's avoid confrontation and opt for defensive maneuvers.



Just responding to what UKBengali gave in terms of numbers. It would not be hard to increase the numbers. I know what IN has. Untill Barak 8 becomes operational, it's longest range modern naval SAM comprises the 3S-90 single rail launcher for the 45km 9M317 (SA-N-12), backed by the 10km Barak 1 and AK630s.

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## UKBengali

Penguin said:


> No, just have to time the packages to arrive at a time when the Mig29K's are out doing something else (e.g. responding to a diversion) and jam the crap out of them and everybody else.




At least 6 of the Mig-29Ks will be tasked with protecting the carrier, and that means engaging hostile ships and aircraft which may try to launch missiles at the carrier

If the rest of them, 18 on total, are "out doing something else", that means the CVBG group is able to do more than be busy defending itself. Even if it is responding to a diversion the amount of resources to be able to successfully attack the Indian CVBG group will be enormous.

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## MilSpec

Penguin said:


> Pay attention: why do you think USN leased a Swedish conventional diesel powered submarine?
> In a defensive scenario, you don't go hunting (chasing) a carrier group but you position yourself where the carrier group is likely to appear and patrol. SS(K)s are VERY effective against surface ships as they are more quiet than SSNs.
> 
> 30 targets isn't al that much: 10 Mirage fighters with 1 AShM each, plus a pair of MPA's with 4 AShM each, a frigate with 8 AShM, a submarine with 4 AShM. Use JF-17 and you can have 5 jets with 10 AShM and 5 jets flying shotgun. Throw in 1 more frigate and 1 more submarine and you have 42 missile targets (plus 2 submarines lurking afterwards with torpedos). Add a pair of Azmat missile boats for some additional complexity. Add some low level strike aircraft armed with stand-off PGMs and pretty soon you're group is really busy fending for itself (i.e. not being used offensively).




Ok when we are situating the appreciation, instead of appreciating the situation, how about accounting for 12 MKI (hunter killer config) and 6 Mig29 SMT flying Air Sup providing forward patrol against the threat??? With 4 Jaguars (maritme strike) 2 kamorta class ASW Corvettes and INS Kolkatta class with a couple of Kilo class on hunting missions coinciding with Carrier operations....To spice things up....

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## Contrarian

sandy_3126 said:


> Ok when we are situating the appreciation, instead of appreciating the situation, how about accounting for 12 MKI (hunter killer config) and 6 Mig29 SMT flying Air Sup providing forward patrol against the threat??? With 4 Jaguars (maritme strike) 2 kamorta class ASW Corvettes and INS Kolkatta class with a couple of Kilo class on hunting missions coinciding with Carrier operations....To spice things up....


Till the time Barak 8 is not installed on the Carrier and till the time we dont get AAW frigates to be part of the CBG - our CBG is not fit to fight any competent enemy.


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## MilSpec

Contrarian said:


> Till the time Barak 8 is not installed on the Carrier and till the time we dont get AAW frigates to be part of the CBG - our CBG is not fit to fight any competent enemy.



I assumed, they were operational in the scenario where JF17's were qualified for AsCM's and Maritime roles... aren't we just fooling around?


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## Contrarian

sandy_3126 said:


> I assumed, they were operational in the scenario where JF17's were qualified for AsCM's and Maritime roles... *aren't we just fooling around?*


I didnt actually consider that. 
lol

Just pissed at the pace of acquisition of Barak 8 and dedicated AAW's.
Carrier is a liability without them against any proper Nation.

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## MilSpec

Contrarian said:


> I didnt actually consider that.
> lol
> 
> Just pissed at the pace of acquisition of Barak 8 and dedicated AAW's.
> Carrier is a liability without them against any proper Nation.



We are pissed at DRDO, HAL, BEL, OFB because of delay's and poor development time frame, I have always wondered how come MoD's defence procurement and planning commission has zero accountability???

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## Fireurimagination

Pakistan's Navy is defensive in nature and we will not exactly be sailing the CBG to Pakistan's shore on the first day of conflict. So will the relatively small PN leave it shores to hunt for the Indian CBG.


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## PiyaraPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai apki fauj sirf peeth peeche war ker sakti hai aur uske genrals sirf golf khel sakte hain ya shadi haals , petrol pumps & bakeries ka mangement dekh sakte hain ...agar unme jara bhi quuwaat aur ghairat hoti to mana kerne per bhi drone attacks ke baad sarwe drones jo pakistani ser zameen se urthe hain unhe tabah ker dete per unhone kya kiya , unhone kya ker liya slalllaa aur raymond davis affair ke baad
> 
> bhai ji hum aap per attack kyon karenm uska fayeda kya milega humko aur jab hamara kaam khud apke so called "strategick assets " & "freinds not masters" ker rahe hain to hum apne haath kyon gande karen
> 
> rahi baat bari machali= INS vikrmaditya ko kabu/tabah kerne ki to bhai roka kisne hain koshish ker ke dekh lo apko apnee aukat khud pata chal jayegi
> 
> rahi baat kashmir ki to pichle 66 saalon me apne apna adha mulk to gawa hi diya hai gilgit aur balistan aur baloochistan ka adha hissa to chinio ke paas 50 saal ke liye girvi para hai KPK aur FATA apse sambhale nahi sambhal rahe aur aapka sara zor kashmir hasil kerne pe ..achhee baat yoonhi lage raho hamara kaam aur asaan bana rahe ho aap
> 
> hum pakistan ko fateh kerke kya bhuute bhoonenge jabki apke under hi to sabse bara bomb haio wo apki barbaadi ke liye kafee hai (sectairinism,relegeous inolrence , corruoption,poverty & population explosion) hame to bas apko bekar ki baaton me uljhaye rakhna hai aur ye kaam aap log poori shiddat aur mehnat se ker rahe ho ...lage raho ji
> 
> now abou guru dutt well he is my most admired and loved cine director and actor of bollywood
> 
> Guru Dutt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> on the other hand i never like sanjay dutt though sunil dutt his father had his own class
> 
> now about mumbai well remeber tassawurr rana and dawood gilllani / richard hadley well if you dont know about them its even better
> 
> what your so called "non state actors " did in mumbai on 26/11 well we killed 9 owt of ten terrorist and captured one(ajmal qasab= resident of faridkoat punjab) and used him to his full potential to show the real face of PA /ISI and your nation is still paying the dividents for that(like if you have ever been to a eourpean or US airport)
> 
> so bhai hum hindustani hain aur hamare hamle kerne ka aur badla lene ka bhi andaz alag hai jo apko tab samjh aata hai jab aap sab kuch kho chukke hote ho ab bhi dushmani kerni hai to 100 bar bismillah


*786*
Dutt bhai now don’t play ping pong with me. I am boring with your ‘Kitabi baten’ whatever your biased historians or media tells you or creation of your mind. Yes we know that there are some law n order issues in our country but these are not permanent problems, most of the countries faced these types of problems in their development stage, solution will take some time. We are getting valuable experience from these problems with the passage of time and applying it to resolve these issues. Swat and Srilanka are best example for you to understand the nature of our said experience.

*Gilgit-Baltistan*—Haha just want to say cheap propaganda. Look in my avatar and guess where I am…Bhai it’s from Gilgit-Baltistan, very beautiful place indeed. We regularly paid visits to Gilgit –Baltistan, twice in a year, we found that local people are very loving in nature infect/perhaps they love Pakistan more than I. O bhai kabhi pictures mebhi is alakay ko dekha hai(lol, ab internet khol ker dekhnay na lug jana), you are sitting hundred & thousands of kilometer away from this place and commenting/ making propaganda against our back bone. Just silly (sorry for that).

*Balochistan*- Yeah yeah we know said issue is very popular now days, we are well aware that who is exploiting this issue, but the reality is that 99.99% Balochs are Pro-Pakistani. All the parties are in “Qoumi Dhara”. Yes there are some small (really tiny) groups involved in killing and bomb blasts but we believe that our political and military leadership will resolve this issue very easily. BTW, my most of the class fellows were from different areas of Blochistan, and I was very pleased to hear from them that no such independence movement exists; no doubt they have some valid concerns But don’t you worry InshAllah we will resolve them very comprehensively. Doosray Mulak jo panga lay rahey hen hum wo bhi jantay hen.

Now bhai kabhi ap 7 sisters states gai ho, mera mashwara mano to gusa kha ker chaley na jana warna mujhay apney achey dost say hath dhona peray ga.

*O Bhai O Bhai hum kis behas me per gai please yar chor is blame game ko, bhool ja buri History ko ghaltian hamari bhi or tumhari bhi chul dosti ka hath milaen, Hum apni next generation ko kia yehi blame game or dushmani transfer keren gay- mera dil nahi manta.*


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## HariPrasad

sandy_3126 said:


> We are pissed at DRDO, HAL, BEL, OFB because of delay's and poor development time frame, I have always wondered how come MoD's defence procurement and planning commission has zero accountability???




But they have done some excellent Jobs also. You can thank them if you want.


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## MilSpec

HariPrasad said:


> But they have done some excellent Jobs also. You can thank them if you want.


do you mean the MOD?? read the post in context...


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## Malik Usman

They are just a missiles away for Pakistan Navy....


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## Penguin

UKBengali said:


> At least 6 of the Mig-29Ks will be tasked with protecting the carrier, and that means engaging hostile ships and aircraft which may try to launch missiles at the carrier
> 
> If the rest of them, 18 on total, are "out doing something else", that means the CVBG group is able to do more than be busy defending itself. Even if it is responding to a diversion the amount of resources to be able to successfully attack the Indian CVBG group will be enormous.



6 Mig 29K versus and escort of at least 5 JF-17, leaving the MPA's unchallenged. Or divide up, but this gives that JF17 package better odds.

18 Migs out doing something else may also be land-strike, or long range missile with buddy-buddy refuelling. 

And all this is assuming just the basic package of 2 MPA and 10 JF-17.... (of which there are more)

We can debate the outcome here endlessly but the point is ... under the right conditions, the odds aren't always overwhelmingly against the strike package or invariably in favor if the Indian force.

Not counting luck, that is.



Fireurimagination said:


> Pakistan's Navy is defensive in nature and we will not exactly be sailing the CBG to Pakistan's shore on the first day of conflict. So will the relatively small PN leave it shores to hunt for the Indian CBG.


Maybe, maybe not.



UKBengali said:


> At least 6 of the Mig-29Ks will be tasked with protecting the carrier, and that means engaging hostile ships and aircraft which may try to launch missiles at the carrier



6 migs means a continuous patrol of just 2 aircraft ....

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## Storm Force

You cannot send out a single engined light weight fighter out to sea 400km away in the hope you will track it and engage it .

The CBG is a moving target
JF17 is a limited unit with small combt radius and worse a small load
It was never built to carry out martime patrol which is a burden taken on by far bigger multi role fighters .
Your small fleet of thunders will not leave the cover of your GCC and nearby support network of sams & F16s

You want engage the CBG you need a sledge HAMMER

That means big powerful long range strike aircraft with long range BVRS to take out the MIG29Ks
big powerful EW suites & Jammers ie

SU33 /J11
F18 Super hornets
Rafale


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## GURU DUTT

Penguin said:


> 6 Mig 29K versus and escort of at least 5 JF-17, leaving the MPA's unchallenged. Or divide up, but this gives that JF17 package better odds.
> 
> 18 Migs out doing something else may also be land-strike, or long range missile with buddy-buddy refuelling.
> 
> And all this is assuming just the basic package of 2 MPA and 10 JF-17.... (of which there are more)
> 
> We can debate the outcome here endlessly but the point is ... under the right conditions, the odds aren't always overwhelmingly against the strike package or invariably in favor if the Indian force.
> 
> Not counting luck, that is.
> 
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> 6 migs means a continuous patrol of just 2 aircraft ....


well given that you think there will onli be two MIG29K (owt of six) for continuous patrol

Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Zhuk-ME is a development of the N010 Zhuk radar, introducing functions such as terrain mapping and following. The radar, weighing 220 kilograms (490 lb), features improved signal processing and a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant. In the air targeting mode, up to 10 targets can be tracked and 4 targets engaged simultaneously
CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Range75km for 3m2 RCS, 130km for 5m2 RCS

so tell me how will say if ..."if" PAF manages to allot 1 squad 20 JF 17s to attack the indian CBG they will be well picked up by indian radars as soon as they leave there bases and tracked all the while thus simontainousli waerning the CBG abut them

il put my money on 2 MIG 29s with 6 X BVRs(mix of Alamo/Adder & navotar K-100) & 2 VWRs (python 5)in air to air combat mode can take care of a bunch of JF17s and hold them till the other 4 MIG 29Ks join the party as MIGs will have range advantage deu to more feul & better ship based and K 31 heli AWACS radar backup where as since CBG will remain at least 500 KM away from the pakistani cost line there JF17s will be carrying more feul than missiles as they are short legged and will be fighting away from home withowt the "AWACS cover" so they become an easy target for owr MIG 29Ks as Indian land based radars will be monitarring them aswell

so my point is a bunch(6-10) of JF17s getting any where near (200KMs) indian CBG is 2/100

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## kaykay

Its very difficult for enemy fighters to come anywhere near Ins Vikramaditya because of its advance Electronics Warfare suite(can detect fighters as away as 500 KM and make them blind), long range SAMs(once installed), and at last 24 Mig-29K fighters of which 6-8 would be anytime ready for protection of CBG.


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## kaykay

Interesting article about Vikramaditya's electronics warfare capabilities. 
It says not a single aircraft(including Mig-29K, Su-33s and IL-38) could detect Ins Vikramditya when electronics warfare system was On during trails. It detected those aircrafts and made them blind as far as 400Km away.
INS Vikramaditya has might but little protection against air attacks - Indian Express

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## Capt.Popeye

Penguin said:


> 6 Mig 29K versus and escort of at least 5 JF-17, leaving the MPA's unchallenged. Or divide up, but this gives that JF17 package better odds.
> 
> 18 Migs out doing something else may also be land-strike, or long range missile with buddy-buddy refuelling.
> 
> And all this is assuming just the basic package of 2 MPA and 10 JF-17.... (of which there are more)
> 
> We can debate the outcome here endlessly but the point is ... under the right conditions, the odds aren't always overwhelmingly against the strike package or invariably in favor if the Indian force.
> 
> Not counting luck, that is.
> 
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> 6 migs means a continuous patrol of just 2 aircraft ....


 
Are you trying to write a Hollywood film script? seriously!


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## ExtraOdinary

kaykay said:


> Interesting article about Vikramaditya's electronics warfare capabilities.
> It says not a single aircraft(including Mig-29K, Su-33s and IL-38) could detect Ins Vikramditya when electronics warfare system was On during trails. It detected those aircrafts and made them blind as far as 400Km away.
> INS Vikramaditya has might but little protection against air attacks - Indian Express



What about enemy subs equipped with exocets ?


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## kaykay

ExtraOdinary said:


> What about enemy subs equipped with exocets ?


hull based and towed sonars. Especially the towed sonars with long range detection. Though I am being very optamistic.


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## kaykay

GURU DUTT said:


> well given that you think there will onli be two MIG29K (owt of six) for continuous patrol
> 
> Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Zhuk-ME is a development of the N010 Zhuk radar, introducing functions such as terrain mapping and following. The radar, weighing 220 kilograms (490 lb), features improved signal processing and a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant. In the air targeting mode, up to 10 targets can be tracked and 4 targets engaged simultaneously
> CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Range75km for 3m2 RCS, 130km for 5m2 RCS
> 
> so tell me how will say if ..."if" PAF manages to allot 1 squad 20 JF 17s to attack the indian CBG they will be well picked up by indian radars as soon as they leave there bases and tracked all the while thus simontainousli waerning the CBG abut them
> 
> il put my money on 2 MIG 29s with 6 X BVRs(mix of Alamo/Adder & navotar K-100) & 2 VWRs (python 5)in air to air combat mode can take care of a bunch of JF17s and hold them till the other 4 MIG 29Ks join the party as MIGs will have range advantage deu to more feul & better ship based and K 31 heli AWACS radar backup where as since CBG will remain at least 500 KM away from the pakistani cost line there JF17s will be carrying more feul than missiles as they are short legged and will be fighting away from home withowt the "AWACS cover" so they become an easy target for owr MIG 29Ks as Indian land based radars will be monitarring them aswell
> 
> so my point is a bunch(6-10) of JF17s getting any where near (200KMs) indian CBG is 2/100


Just one correction.
KLJ-7 radar has a detection range of 105 KM for rcs of 5 m2. Its less than Zuke ME of Mig-29K.

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## --,-'{@

GURU DUTT said:


> well hamne bare achhe se dekha hai apke kehne aur kerne ko ..khair wo ek doosri behes hai pakistan ko apni aukat samjhani chaiye aur apni hudood me rehker faisle kerne chaiye jisse uski mahashi taraqi ho na ki unse apna ghar to sambhalta nahi aur hum ko fateh kerne ke khwaab poore kerne ke liye pange lete rehte hain aapke apno ne 1948 me pange na liye hote to aaj kashmir apka hota
> apke apne field marshal ne operation gibralter aur grand slam na kia hota to na to 1965 ki jang hoti aur aj hindustan aur pakistan dono achhe doston ki tarah mil ke taraqi ker rehe hote ...
> 
> pehle panga apne 1965 liye ki jiska jawab hamne apko 1971 me sood samet de diye fir apne 1999 me panga liya aur jiska hisab aaj abhi tak chukka rahe hain socho jab ABV bus leke lahore dosti ka paigam leke gaya tha agar tab aapke generals kargil na kerte to dubara kashmir ka masla sulajh hi chukka tha per kya hua aur uska kya nateeja nikla (nawaz had to go to washington with begging bowl for cease fire & USA became suspecious of you and came to owr fold and still helping us with economy and millitarry/wepons while killing your people in your own land)
> 
> so brother hum apni aukat jante hain aur waqt ke hirab se faisle kerte hain jabki aaj pakistan ka haal ye hai "na to karwan hi milla na wasal E sanam na idhar ke rahe na udhar ke hum"




ye log kabhi nai sudhrengay. inko mitana hee padega ya fir reverse brainwashing camps me daalna padega. pehla option is the best 1. ye log baar baar humla karengay. aukaad hai nai humse jeetnay ki isslea covert jihad ka formula use kartey hai. dimag chod mujhadeen ko bhejtey hai or apne kattar muslim volunteers army k bhejtey hai mujhadeen k naam pe ( naam pe mat jao har ek muslim mujhadeen kehla sakta hai, they r happy to die in the name of allahh.


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## --,-'{@

lets start charity from our home thts India.

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## Maler

Nassr said:


> It is not that. One can not discuss warfare without taking into account the existing environment in entirety. Pakistan's declared nuclear policy is first use, to deter the threat and use of conventional as well as nuclear weapons. Contrarily, the Indian policy revolves around a second strike and to deter the threat and use of nuclear and chemical (added later) weapons. It wants a free run for it superior conventional capability.
> 
> For India nuclear weapons may only be meant for deterrence and not for use. Pakistan will use the nuclear weapons if certain nuclear thresholds are crossed. India should not have any doubt in this regard and this is also Pakistan's declared policy.
> 
> And don't tell me now that whereas India would be able to absorb Pakistani first strike, Indian second strike would destroy Pakistan completely - this is a favourite and a misplaced Indian response. Probably the reason Pakistan is enhancing its nuclear capability is to acquire such a wherewithal which could also destroy India completely, encompassing the complete spectrum of conventional and nuclear environment.
> 
> Therefore, whenever warfare in South Asia is discussed, do not forget that nuclear equation has become part and parcel of the overall environment and conclusions can not be arrived at unless this factor is weighed in.




Pakistanis should not have any doubt that If there is a slight provocation and Intent shown by Pakistan during Indo-Pak war scenario to use nuclear weapons, India would not preempt a nuclear strike!!!! India has advantage of arial surveillance covering whole Pakistan due to Its small size through Its space & air assets and also has the capability to detect nuclear material's movement. A slight indication of moving or preparation to launch nuclear assets by Pakistan will force India to take appropriate steps and preempt a nuclear strike to destroy Pakistan's nuclear capability in advance. It is better to kill than be killed saving enemy lives, as simple as that.

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## Nassr

Maler said:


> Pakistanis should not have any doubt that If there is a slight provocation and Intent shown by Pakistan during Indo-Pak war scenario to use nuclear weapons, India would not preempt a nuclear strike!!!! India has advantage of arial surveillance covering whole Pakistan due to Its small size through Its space & air assets and also has the capability to detect nuclear material's movement. A slight indication of moving or preparation to launch nuclear assets by Pakistan will force India to take appropriate steps and preempt a nuclear strike to destroy Pakistan's nuclear capability in advance. It is better to kill than be killed saving enemy lives, as simple as that.



Even the most militarily advanced country in the world USA does not have this capability. And you are stating that India possess such technological ability. Ye Ambarsar se Bhatinda janay wali bus ki advance booking nahin hai jo online kar lo. Kabhi kabhi aqal ki baat bhi kar letay hein.

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## Maler

Nassr said:


> Even the most militarily advanced country in the world USA does not have this capability. And you are stating that India possess such technological ability. Ye Ambarsar se Bhatinda janay wali bus ki advance booking nahin hai jo online kar lo. Kabhi kabhi aqal ki baat bhi kar letay hein.




Do you really think US has no capability to detect fissile material movement through satellite or through other means? You need to educate yourself, after that come for discussion.


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## Nassr

Maler said:


> Do you really think US has no capability to detect fissile material movement through satellite or through other means? You need to educate yourself, after that come for discussion.



Limited because they do not know where majority of nuclear weapons are located and therefore tracking the unknown is never easy.


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## Nassr

Maler said:


> You can't even able built a rocket to deliver a TV size satellite to earth's lower orbit, which require a very low tech as compare to your so called highfy nuclear missile technology, you are farting about. Stop day dreaming and face the the reality. Annihilate India......hm....are you smoking some superior shit like Zaid Hamid??? You first survive from TTP, then think to fight with us. You are not more than a a rotten society, who can't even accept their soldiers martyrdom when fighting against terrorist. You can produce nothing more than some salwar wearing terrorist...hahaha.....Annihilate India...Our war planners know that If you throw a stone at shit, it will blow back and dirty your cloths, so let the shit convert into dust automatically and that is what happening with you!!!!! .....Gazwa e Hind....You can't even walk to your own city Miran shah and you are dreaming about Gazwa e Hind!!!!!.....One More Sir Zaid's fan child....hahahaha....Gazwa e Hind!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American even has the information about the pin of your every hand grenade, let alone fissile material!!!!! *Why do you think Americans built a 2nd Pentagon in Islamabad?? to sell chocolates*, I think!!!!!



Nope. Probably to eat mangoes. Ja bhai time zaya na kar with your uninformed rhetoric.


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## newdelhinsa

This thread is becoming laborious with nonacademic assumptions.

To make an ACC inoperable one should first learn mathematics before firing cruise missiles on it. No Pakistani poster has mention how many CMs will they need to do so.

Oh I hate myself; when giving tips to trolls.


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## Penguin

kaykay said:


> Interesting article about Vikramaditya's electronics warfare capabilities.
> It says not a single aircraft(including Mig-29K, Su-33s and IL-38) could detect Ins Vikramditya when electronics warfare system was On during trails. It detected those aircrafts and made them blind as far as 400Km away.
> INS Vikramaditya has might but little protection against air attacks - Indian Express



If it were actively jamming (ECM) , that would immediately reveal its position. If not jamming, it would be merely listening (ESM).



Capt.Popeye said:


> Are you trying to write a Hollywood film script? seriously!


No, seriously.

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## luckych



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## GURU DUTT

Maler said:


> You can't even able built a rocket to deliver a TV size satellite to earth's lower orbit, which require a very low tech as compare to your so called highfy nuclear missile technology, you are farting about. Stop day dreaming and face the the reality. Annihilate India......hm....are you smoking some superior shit like Zaid Hamid??? You first survive from TTP, then think to fight with us. You are not more than a a rotten society, who can't even accept their soldiers martyrdom when fighting against terrorist. You can produce nothing more than some salwar wearing terrorist...hahaha.....Annihilate India...Our war planners know that If you throw a stone at shit, it will blow back and dirty your cloths, so let the shit convert into dust automatically and that is what happening with you!!!!! .....Gazwa e Hind....You can't even walk to your own city Miran shah and you are dreaming about Gazwa e Hind!!!!!.....One More Sir Zaid's fan child....hahahaha....Gazwa e Hind!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American even has the information about the pin of your every hand grenade, let alone fissile material!!!!! Why do you think Americans built a 2nd Pentagon in Islamabad?? to sell chocolates, I think!!!!!


oye jaan de weera chadd inna nu !!!!

well thing is they have been force fed that "1 pakistani = 10 Indians" and still consider indians to be the same as there great grand parents left when they went to pakistan 66 years back but you see they will never aknowledge Indian might...lolzzz they even dream of conqureing USA & West one day 

the thing actualli is there establishment played a laying game with them for long and got away with almost every thing till USA came here for so called "WOT" after that there secrets started coming owt like leaves of a onion and the process is still going on 

lolzz they cant even control there financial capital , cant even have there states writt over there 40% country and they dream of "Gazwa E Hind" ever wondered why ?

well now about Indian navy & specially INS Vikrmaditya ..well to all of them . owr land based Radars + Air force can take care of all pakistans fancy dreams against us and we can & will pay you back at appropriate time(100 sonar ki aur ek lohar ki) till then have fun . secondli we dont need to use a sabre to do a needels work...

the onli thing thats saving them from not being eaten up alive by USA/WEST & Taliban is chinese interests in baloochistan / Gilgit & balistan (both wich they have leased to China)and from there to afghanistan and beyond

i guess its time Mods closes this thread for good now ..hope hes watching


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## kaykay

Penguin said:


> If it were actively jamming (ECM) , that would immediately reveal its position. If not jamming, it would be merely listening (ESM).
> 
> 
> No, seriously.


Thanks. Anyway can you give more info on that??


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## PiyaraPakistan

Capt.Popeye said:


> Are you trying to write a Hollywood film script? seriously!


*Penguin* is one of the most knowledgable person regarding Naval warfare. understand or cyclestand?.


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## Immanuel

Penguin said:


> If it were actively jamming (ECM) , that would immediately reveal its position. If not jamming, it would be merely listening (ESM).


 
Well Viky's radar will detect any **** assets way before anything else, quite simply because its radars are far more advanced, moreover, as soon as P-3s or Erieyes are spotted, it will disappear if confrontation is not on the menu, however, if breakfast needs to be served, Migs will unleashed, plenty to counter. Secondly, in an all out conventional war IN, IAF will play offensive, with crippling Brahmos strikes, after day 2, there will be no operational bases where PAF can take off from. 

With the amount of air defences being gradually inducted, no **** aircraft will make it beyond 3-5 km into India.

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## Penguin

PiyaraPakistan said:


> e most knowledgable person regarding Naval warfare. understand or cyclestand?.





kaykay said:


> Thanks. Anyway can you give more info on that??


EW has three branches: Electronic Support Measures (ESM), Electronic Countermeasures (ECM), and Electronic Counter-Counter Measures (ECCM).

Electronic support measures (ESM) search the RF spectrum for emissions and analyze the results to exploit the weapons or sensors involved. Exploitation includes tactical early warning, identification for counterweapon selection and recording to support countermeasures development.

The second major division of Electronic Warfare is ECM, and of the three divisions it is probably the best known. Partly this is because ECM tends to be visualized as "black boxes" that display a visible realization of electronic warfare. Often it appears that if one understands the black boxes, then one has an understanding of ECM, but such an attitude is very narrow because it ignores the two types of ECM: jamming and deception.

Of the two types of electromagnetic radiating systems against which ECM may be employed--either sensors and/or communications systems--enemy sensors receive by far the greatest attention. The primary reasons for this fact are: (1) the enemy sensor system produces an immediate threat, whereas the communications system does not, and (2) the sensor system is usually specifically directed toward the friendly forces, and communications are not.

From a strategic point of view, using ECM against an enemy communications system is questionable, for by so doing the opportunity to gain valuable information by eavesdropping is lost. Tactically, however, it may be very advantageous to jam the enemy communications system in order to cause a breakdown in his battle plan.

Typical electronic sensors against which ECM might be used include long-range passive detectors; radar-warning picket ships; airborne radar patrols (AWACS); long-range early-warning radar sets; ground-controlled intercept radar sets; fighter intercept radar; missiles guided by radar or infrared; radio and radar navigation equipment; electronic bombing equipment; electronic identification equipment (IFF); terrain-following radar; antiaircraft artillery (AAA); fire control radar; and surface-to-air (SAM) control radar, etc. The particular method used will depend upon the tactical situation.

 Jamming Tactics. 
Self-screening jammers (SSJ)Stand-off jammers (SOJ).Stand-forward jammers (SFJ).

The other major type of active ECM is deception. In contrast to noise jamming, deception tries to mimic the radar echo so that the radar will respond as if it is receiving an echo from another aircraft or ship.

*Electronic Counter-Countermeasures (ECCM)*



Electronic counter-countermeasures is the art of reducing the effectiveness of an EW threat with the objective of making the cost of effective EW prohibitive for the enemy.
Chapter 11 COUNTERMEASURES



> the ship's electronic warfare systems defeated all incoming aircraft by *blinding them with directed energy*.


INS Vikramaditya has might but little protection against air attacks - Indian Express
While the attacking aircraft would be blinded, the opponent might use its ESM to locate the source of the directed energy (=jamming) from a MPA, ship or shore based installation. As a ship group you maintain EMCON (emissions control), you only start jamming at the point where you come under attack (i.e. after you've been spotted). Jamming helps prevent a succesfull attack (e.g. opposing force's weapons' lock) but it doesn't render your own assets invisible or undetectable.

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## Penguin

[url="http://www.scribd.com/doc/126234829/An-Illustrated-Overview-of-ESM-and-ECM-Systems"]An Illustrated Overview of ESM and ECM Systems[/URL]
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf
ADM: Electronic Warfare: EW systems for the new AWD
The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

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## jaibi

Can you please come to the Jr. TT section or start a conversation with me, I've to talk to you.


Penguin said:


> An Illustrated Overview of ESM and ECM Systems
> http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf
> ADM: Electronic Warfare: EW systems for the new AWD
> The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

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## Chronos

Pakistanis relax.

Vikramaditya isn't going to see action.


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## Slayer786

Ravi Nair said:


> Pakistanis relax.
> 
> Vikramaditya isn't going to see action.




Indians relax.

We know.

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## notorious_eagle

Penguin said:


> 6 migs means a continuous patrol of just 2 aircraft ....



Sir

You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.


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## Alphacharlie

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.



Your Eminence has forgotten IN has Buddy Refuelling and IAF Also has Buddy refuelling + Aerial Tankers...

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## kaykay

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.


Well Mig-29Ks have a combat radius of 850KM with full internal fuel(4500KG) while It is able to take off with a total 5500KG load (including internal fuel) from Ins Vikramaditya so, with full fuel it can carry 4 BVR missiles easily for a range of 850 KM combat radius(more than enough for patrolling). 

Again for maritime missions, it can carry around 3000KG fuel+ 2500KG weapon load(2-3 anti-ship missiles, 3-4 bvr missiles) for around 500KM combat radius. Also it has buddy refueling option. I find this more than enough for above mentioned tasked i.e patrolling and maritime missions.

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## Penguin

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.



Doesn't matter to this point. Flying CAP for the carrier (not going anywhere else), Mig29Ks would be lightly loaded anyway (AAMs+ fuel). It is the rest of the Mig's that your point would apply to.



kaykay said:


> Well Mig-29Ks have a combat radius of 850KM with full fuel(4500KG) while It is able to take off with a total 5500KG load(including fuel) so, with full fuel it can carry 4 BVR missiles easily for a range of 850 KM combat radius(more than enough for patrolling).
> 
> Again for maritime missions, it can carry around 3000KG fuel+ 2500KG weapon load(2-3 anti-ship missiles, 3-4 bvr missiles) for around 500KM combat radius. Also it has buddy refueling option. I find this more than enough for above mentioned tasked i.e patrolling and maritime missions.



Buddy refuelling would eat into the Mig complement's punch carrying out tasks other than CAP. For the CAP units, it would increase the number needed to stay and defend 'home' i.e. the carrier force.



Alphacharlie said:


> Your Eminence has forgotten IN has Buddy Refuelling and IAF Also has Buddy refuelling + Aerial Tankers...



The IAF currently operates 6-7 IlyushinIl-78MKIs in the aerial refueling (tanker) role. As the Indian Air Force inducts new high-value aircraft, the need for aerial refueling tankers grows along with them. The IAF's requirement for mid-air tankers is urgent as it will be acquiring 200-300 additional combat aircrafts over the next two decades. In response, the IAF plans to buy another 6 aerial tankers. IN january 2013 Airbus got the order for 6 A330 MRTT air refuelling tankers.

... I doubt the IN (navy) would get much use of those .....

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## kaykay

@Penguin Sir, If you meant tasks like Land strike etc then I am totally agree that buddy refueling will some what eat the punch or they have to bring CBG close to the shore which will make it vulnerable. But for Maritime missions and CAP, its more than enough.
PS: Personally I believe that One carrier won't make much difference If I consider war with a country like Pakistan. But again our Primary interest is different than to strike some country.

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## Storm Force

The vikramditya will be fitted out with the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_8_(missile)

Kashtan CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will be the eventually nos of Sam & ciws that are lntergrated into the carrier over the next 3 years

Armament:
- 3 X 24 SA-N-9 SAM
- 4 X 32 CADS-N-1 SAM/CIWS
- 4 X AK-630 30mm CIWS
-2 X 12 ASW RBU-6000
As per various new reports.

That is 72 SAM at any one time

Lets not forget

24 mig29k





These BVR fighters are a match for anything in the PAF including their small FLEET of F16 falcons, arguablly the most advanced MIG29 anywhere with FBW flight control new cockpits and twin egines.

Almost certainly when VIKRAM DITYA gos to war it will be escorted both on sea and in the air to give a massive circle of cover

P8 posedions
SU30MKI
AT LEAST 4 FRIGATES & DESTROYERS

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## kaykay

^^ not to forget Barak8 LR Sams for Viki.

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## Penguin

Storm Force said:


> The vikramditya will be fitted out with the following
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_8_(missile)
> 
> Kashtan CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This will be the eventually nos of Sam & ciws that are lntergrated into the carrier over the next 3 years
> 
> Armament:
> - 3 X 24 SA-N-9 SAM
> - 4 X 32 CADS-N-1 SAM/CIWS
> - 4 X AK-630 30mm CIWS
> -2 X 12 ASW RBU-6000
> As per various new reports.
> 
> That is 72 SAM at any one time



At present she isn't fitted with any of the above armaments.

Kashtan is VERY unlikely, also given that the batch 2 Talwars didn't get any. CGs with Kashtan certainly do not show 4 united (actually only 1 above the bridge, foreward of the main survaillance radar.... you might be able to park another 2 united on port and starboard beam, but then you don't have space for AK630s anymore).

As for 3x24 SA-N-9, I don't know where you got that, but that's 3x the launchercapacity of the Talwar/Shivalik and I don't see where those would be fitted. Besides, she'ld need to get 4-8 Orekh missile directors as well to guide those SARH missiles.

Others have claimed she's to be fitted with Barak-8 (which may not become available for quite some time) coupled to Elta Alpha radar. Then again, I'm not convinces by the source references for that.

Personally, I expect 2x1 or 2x2 AK 630 or perhaps a pair of licence built 76mm Oto cannon, plus Barak-1 (moved over from Viraat).

As for the migs, it is a matter of putting together a good strike package or two with their own protection, adding a sub, surface and mpa componen for complexity, finding a good moment (so that many/most are not available for fleet air defence), and providing electronic support (e.g. ESM and jamming).

(overconfidence will get you killed)

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## kaykay

Ins Vikramaditya's combat management system.
LESORUB-E Combat Management Automated System - Concern Morinformsystem-Agat


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## Contrarian

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.


@Penguin
What you say depends on where the Carrier is to be used.
If its against Pakistan -
1. India does not require a CBG to blockade Karachi and Gwadar. It can be accomplished without them easily enough.
2. If its against Pakistan - then IN will have access to IAF refuelers and other resources to be effective in a task assigned to it.
3. Alternatively they could just be used as decoys to add another threat from a completely different direction to the PAF's highly overburdened and over-stretched resources.
Multiple ways it can be used..

However this particular Carrier is *not* potent in an individual situation in an area which has:
1. No Indian land based cover (Yes the Malacca Straits do have Indian land support)
2. The opposing faction has a professional airforce with the numbers to back it up.

In both such scenarios, this Carrier is next to pointless.

However this Carrier can be thought of as the stepping stone to IN getting familiarized with _modern_ Carrier ops with high performance jets on a proper Carrier - the last one barely cut it at around 20,000 tons.

The IAC 2 - at 65,000 tons and a CATOBAR would be *as* big a leap forward from the Vikramaditya's capabilities as Vikramaditya has been from the Virat. That means a major leap.

Lastly, we never know how geopolitics shapes up, if say in a decade or so India decides to get F-35 for Vikaramaditya (transferring the MiG 29K's to the IAF and going for an off the shelf buy of two dozen F-35's), that would change the equations *completely*.


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## Alpha1

Contrarian said:


> @Penguin
> 
> 1. India does not require a CBG to blockade Karachi and Gwadar. It can be accomplished without them easily enough.


kindly elaborate this point

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## MilSpec

Alpha1 said:


> kindly elaborate this point



Indian Surface fleet along with the support from IAF Western command will be able to blockade Pakistan, i guess that is the contention

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## Alphacharlie

Penguin said:


> Doesn't matter to this point. Flying CAP for the carrier (not going anywhere else), Mig29Ks would be lightly loaded anyway (AAMs+ fuel). It is the rest of the Mig's that your point would apply to.
> 
> 
> 
> Buddy refuelling would eat into the Mig complement's punch carrying out tasks other than CAP. For the CAP units, it would increase the number needed to stay and defend 'home' i.e. the carrier force.
> 
> 
> 
> The IAF currently operates 6-7 IlyushinIl-78MKIs in the aerial refueling (tanker) role. As the Indian Air Force inducts new high-value aircraft, the need for aerial refueling tankers grows along with them. The IAF's requirement for mid-air tankers is urgent as it will be acquiring 200-300 additional combat aircrafts over the next two decades. In response, the IAF plans to buy another 6 aerial tankers. IN january 2013 Airbus got the order for 6 A330 MRTT air refuelling tankers.
> 
> ... I doubt the IN (navy) would get much use of those .....



Mr Penguin...your skipped the Threat Posed by Buddy Re-fueling in your assertion......


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## Contrarian

Alpha1 said:


> kindly elaborate this point


The last time it was done by a couple of missile boats with Styx and the _threat_ of the IN deploying off Karachi.

You have access to what Indian Navy fields now.
What IAF fields.

And you know that PN barring its 3 Agostas is not a capable force.

Its barely even a challenge anymore at this point. Give it another decade, with the new destroyers coming in, it would cease to be a talking point.

It is highly unlikely that the Carrier would be used to blockade Pakistan. The mere presence of the Carrier would/could infact force PAF to devote a lot of resources to target it.


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## Roybot

AirRodgers said:


> Will just ask/try and buy the DF 21 ASBM, with its long range it will keep the Indian AC far away from Pakistani shore for them to be effective..



Why would America buy DF-21 from China, and why would China sell it to America


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## MilSpec

Contrarian said:


> The last time it was done by a couple of missile boats with Styx and the _threat_ of the IN deploying off Karachi.
> 
> You have access to what Indian Navy fields now.
> What IAF fields.
> 
> And you know that PN barring its Agostas is not a capable force.
> 
> Its barely even a challenge anymore at this point. Give it another decade, with the new destroyers coming in, it would cease to be a talking point.
> 
> It is highly unlikely that the Carrier would be used to blockade Pakistan. The mere presence of the Carrier would/could infact force PAF to devote a lot of resources to target it.



Hey.. if you blockade anything, PN will deploy, NASR on a Boat, and thus that is the answer to all games.... Like a Boss!

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## Water Car Engineer

sandy_3126 said:


> Hey.. if you blockade anything, PN will deploy, NASR on a Boat, and thus that is the answer to all games.... Like a Boss!




Dude, if they're putting NASR on boats, what's the point of having a navy then? It's pretty much game, set, and match if they put legendary NASR on patrol boats.

Rumors going around that they're putting NASRs on the backs of JF-17s, like why have an airforce? It's over.

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## GURU DUTT

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, if they're putting NASR on boats, what's the point of having a navy then? It's pretty much game, set, and match if they put legendary NASR on patrol boats.
> 
> Rumors going around that they're putting NASRs on the backs of JF-17s, like why have an airforce? It's over.


lolzzzz that was realli funny dude any way i like your name "water car Engineer"


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## Storm Force

Some of this putting cruise missles on Thunder is made up.

We have no idea or proof its happening.

Not sure a tiny small single engined fighter can carry a LARGE enough cruise missle to seriuosly damage a frigate let alone a massive 40k tonne carrier.

But i understand sometimes whenm your response means are so limited outside the box thinking is required.


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## The Archnazi

ur country tried that in 1971 and what happend? pns ghazi was sunk. so please , admit it, IN is way too powerful for PN to subdue


Luftwaffe said:


> It is true that ACs posses Threats in its own ways but Pakistan has heavily invested in Carrier Killers as Weapons of choice, the motives and objectives should be well know to INavy, decommission ACs temporary out of War is in itself a major success but remains to be seen how effectively Pakistan Navy/Air plans would be. It would be understatement and underestimation by INavy and they should be concerned as with little investment Pakistan can potentially achieve the objectives to taking out ACs out of War..


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## Alphacharlie

Threat to Vikramaditya -

1) Pakistan Navy Procures Even 1 SSBN.
2) In case PN exploded Under Sea Nuke & Start a Nuke WAR
3) Pakistan Detonates ESM Bomb (Only US of A POSESSION)
None Rest.....


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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, if they're putting NASR on boats, what's the point of having a navy then? It's pretty much game, set, and match if they put legendary NASR on patrol boats.
> 
> Rumors going around that they're putting NASRs on the backs of JF-17s, like why have an airforce? It's over.



Arrey Mazak kar raha tha woh 
Since PK tests nassar for every missile india tests 

On topic 
IN without carrier is enough to blockade Krachi


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## HariPrasad

Vikky can blind all the palnes in 500 KM range. Vikky parked near Jamnagar can blind the PAK plane up to some where around KARACHI. They can not see any Naval warship. So indirectly it is a protection to other ships floating around ViKky.


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## kurup

Alphacharlie said:


> Threat to Vikramaditya -
> 
> 1) Pakistan Navy Procures Even 1 SSBN.
> 2) In case PN exploded Under Sea Nuke & Start a Nuke WAR
> 3) Pakistan Detonates ESM Bomb (Only US of A POSESSION)
> None Rest.....



SSBN are supposed to carry SLBM . You must be talking about SSN .


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## nomi007

we will only use atom bomb to end the story

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## Alphacharlie

nomi007 said:


> we will only use atom bomb to end the story



Shooting from HIP again!!.............................

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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> we will only use atom bomb to end the story


 
_Ahanh; woh Atami Bum ? _


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## nomi007

Alphacharlie said:


> Shooting from HIP again!!.............................


you r not replying to ur papa


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## acid rain

nomi007 said:


> we will only use atom bomb to end the story



What do you think we will use in reply from land, air and sea?

On the topic, of course its a threat, a full blown CBG against a kindergarten Navy is obviously a threat.

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## nomi007

acid rain said:


> What do you think we will use in reply from land, air and sea?
> 
> On the topic, of course its a threat, a full blown CBG against a kindergarten Navy is obviously a threat.


when u will attack than we will see
by the way check the Chinese site who they find many drawbacks in Vikramaditya


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## Penguin

Alphacharlie said:


> Mr Penguin...your skipped the Threat Posed by Buddy Re-fueling in your assertion......


No I didn't:


> Buddy refuelling would eat into the Mig complement's punch carrying out tasks other than CAP. For the CAP units, it would increase the number needed to stay and defend 'home' i.e. the carrier force.


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## Penguin

Contrarian said:


> @Penguin
> What you say depends on where the Carrier is to be used.
> If its against Pakistan -
> 1. India does not require a CBG to blockade Karachi and Gwadar. It can be accomplished without them easily enough.
> 2. If its against Pakistan - then IN will have access to IAF refuelers and other resources to be effective in a task assigned to it.
> 3. Alternatively they could just be used as decoys to add another threat from a completely different direction to the PAF's highly overburdened and over-stretched resources.
> Multiple ways it can be used..


Agree on the first point. Not on second point (IAF will give priority to its own when providing tanker support, particularly considering 6+eventually another 6 tankers for over 200 IAF jets - it just isn't a big enough tanker fleet)
As for 3, well, in a real war scenario anything is possible.



Contrarian said:


> However this particular Carrier is *not* potent in an individual situation in an area which has:
> 1. No Indian land based cover (Yes the Malacca Straits do have Indian land support)
> 2. The opposing faction has a professional airforce with the numbers to back it up.


I'll trade you my air defence destroyer or frigate for a carrier like Vikramaditya anyday. Plus you have to consider NAVY AIR tasks > primarily against another naval opponent and when outside of land-based air (why else would you need a carrier in the first place .....?). Life got complicated for carriers with long range land based jets like Su27/30 and J10 (or F15E for that matter)



> However this Carrier can be thought of as the stepping stone to IN getting familiarized with _modern_ Carrier ops with high performance jets on a proper Carrier - the last one barely cut it at around 20,000 tons.


Hermes/Viraat 
Displacement:23,900 tonnes standard 2; 28,700 tonnes full load
You are about 1/3rd off....

Even so, the Italian Garibaldi of barely 14k tonnes yet with 16 Sea Harrier 2s cannot be ignored, nor can Spain's 16700 ton Principe d'Asturias with her 29 fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. Or the 22k ton Invincible class with some 22 aircraft. THese were effective for what they are intended to do.

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## MilSpec

Penguin said:


> Even so, the Italian *Garibaldi *of barely 14k tonnes yet with 16 Sea Harrier 2s cannot be ignored, nor can Spain's 16700 ton Principe d'Asturias with her 29 fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. Or the 22k ton Invincible class with some 22 aircraft. THese were effective for what they are intended to do.


IN had actually considered and entered negotiations with the italians for the garibaldi before geting the HMS hermes. IAC 1 with 42K tons seems underutilised with 12 Mig 29K's and 8 LCA's


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## acid rain

nomi007 said:


> when u will attack than we will see
> by the way check the Chinese site who they find many drawbacks in Vikramaditya



Its LRSAMS are not in place, we know that already.


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## nomi007

acid rain said:


> Its LRSAMS are not in place, we know that already.


dear technical drawbacks 
designing


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## Penguin

sandy_3126 said:


> IN had actually considered and entered negotiations with the italians for the garibaldi before geting the HMS hermes. IAC 1 with 42K tons seems underutilised with 12 Mig 29K's and 8 LCA's


Isn't she suppose to operate 16 Migs and some 8-10 helicopters?



> The 44,500 ton ex-Soviet vessel, which is undergoing an extensive modernization, (70 per cent of the structure will be completely renewed) will carry 16 new MiG-29K aircraft, as well as an assortment of Kamov-28 and Kamov-31 helicopters.


India’s Future Aircraft Carrier Force and the Need for Strategic Flexibility | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

In soviet service, Baku/Gorshov carried 16 Yak jets +19 helicopters. Also, you do realize IN acquired a total of 30 SeaHarriers, 25 for operational use and the remainder as dual-seat trainer aircraft, which it has operated from both its aircraft carriers INS _Vikrant_ and INS Viraat (ex-HMS_Hermes_). Currently the Indian Navy uses 15 upgraded Sea Harriers on INS Viraat only. So, in reality, the aircraft complement of 16 Migs on Vikramaditya is similar and consistent (but of course the Mig29K is vastly superior to SeaHarrier). It was never intended by as a full fledged strike carrier. It's key function is extended fleet air defence, and all other capabilities (naval and land strike) as a nice bonus. And mind you, Liaoning will likely not operate more than 24 fighter jets, so even that bigger ship is limited compared to e.g. USN carriers. Note also that the RUssian Kuznetsov will get 28 Mig 29K eventually to replace it current Su-33s.



sandy_3126 said:


> IN had actually considered and entered negotiations with the italians for the garibaldi before geting the HMS hermes. IAC 1 with 42K tons seems underutilised with 12 Mig 29K's and 8 LCA's


I very much doubt the IN was to acquire THE Garibaldi (though possibly interested in A Garibaldi class ship). HMS Hermes was transferred to India in 1987. The Italian carrier Garibaldi first commissioned 30 september 1985. Until 1988 only Italian helicopters landed on her deck, as well as RN Sea Harriers during NATO joint maneuvers. The ban on Italian naval fixed-wing aircraft was lifted in 1989, and the Italian Navy since received fixed-wing Harrier II fighters to fly from the _Giuseppe Garibaldi. _

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## notsuperstitious

Our aircraft carriers are just not cost effective in a Pakistan centric scenario. Discussing this is fine, but the real value lies in the bigger picture, the Indian Ocean.

In a Pakistan centric role, the carrier is an overkill and a misfit. Discssing only this in isolation is underestimating the true role of the carrier.

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## acid rain

nomi007 said:


> dear technical drawbacks
> designing
> View attachment 10946
> View attachment 10948



Pls share the link.


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## trident2010

Aircraft carrier is meant to project power far away from the shores so for local conflicts, it will be used for the blockade at most.


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## Capt.Popeye

Penguin said:


> Isn't she suppose to operate 16 Migs and some 8-10 helicopters?
> 
> 
> India’s Future Aircraft Carrier Force and the Need for Strategic Flexibility | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses
> 
> In soviet service, Baku/Gorshov carried 16 Yak jets +19 helicopters. Also, you do realize IN acquired a total of 30 SeaHarriers, 25 for operational use and the remainder as dual-seat trainer aircraft, which it has operated from both its aircraft carriers INS _Vikrant_ and INS Viraat (ex-HMS_Hermes_). Currently the Indian Navy uses 15 upgraded Sea Harriers on INS Viraat only. So, in reality, the aircraft complement of 16 Migs on Vikramaditya is similar and consistent (but of course the Mig29K is vastly superior to SeaHarrier). It was never intended by as a full fledged strike carrier. It's key function is extended fleet air defence, and all other capabilities (naval and land strike) as a nice bonus. And mind you, Liaoning will likely not operate more than 24 fighter jets, so even that bigger ship is limited compared to e.g. USN carriers. Note also that the RUssian Kuznetsov will get 28 Mig 29K eventually to replace it current Su-33s.
> 
> 
> I very much doubt the IN was to acquire THE Garibaldi (though possibly interested in A Garibaldi class ship). HMS Hermes was transferred to India in 1987. The Italian carrier Garibaldi first commissioned 30 september 1985. Until 1988 only Italian helicopters landed on her deck, as well as RN Sea Harriers during NATO joint maneuvers. The ban on Italian naval fixed-wing aircraft was lifted in 1989, and the Italian Navy since received fixed-wing Harrier II fighters to fly from the _Giuseppe Garibaldi. _


 
I will go with the inferences there.
About the Garibaldi; there was no such plan. A version of the Garibaldi was considered as the basis to design a Carrier in India. At that time; the only thing that was clear; was that IN desired to keep the Carrier Wing going and the (old) INS Vikrant was a rapidly depleting asset. IN's DND was juggling various Carrier design concepts at the same time; all built around the concept of STOVL aircraft viz. the Sea Harrier. Even the Yak-40 Forger was looked at and summarily discarded.

Just as the Hermes/INS Viraat project happened quite fortiously, so did the Gorshkov/INS Vikramaditya project. It also coincided with the shift in IN's doctrinal thinking away from STOVL again.

The rest is history.

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## Penguin

notsuperstitious said:


> Our aircraft carriers are just not cost effective in a Pakistan centric scenario. Discussing this is fine, but the real value lies in the bigger picture, the Indian Ocean.
> 
> In a Pakistan centric role, the carrier is an overkill and a misfit. Discssing only this in isolation is underestimating the true role of the carrier.


Very much agree with this. SInce its first carrier, IN has looked at three ship carrier force.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We already have nuclear deterrent, all the fancy planes will wash off the Carrier once a nuc goes off unleashing a gigantic Tsunami wave

Not to mention we have unlimited amount of weapons to launch from land to sea platform


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## Vinod2070

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We already have nuclear deterrent, all the fancy planes will wash off the Carrier once a nuc goes off unleashing a gigantic Tsunami wave
> 
> *Not to mention we have unlimited amount of weapons to launch from land to sea platform*



You can't sustain a war for more than a week, two at the max.


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## asad71

1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.

2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.

3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.

4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.

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## Parul

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.



Arey _Ghazab_, Yeh toh Latest news Hai

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## trident2010

I do not see that PN will be able to come up with some thing to counter two ACs in the near future. Only option for PN is to give a way when IN is coming

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## Vinod2070

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.



A zealous but petty and insignificant hater. Condemned to insignificance and pettiness.

Burn haters burn!

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## notorious_eagle

Vinod2070 said:


> You can't sustain a war for more than a week, two at the max.



We can sustain it for 45 days. Please explain how you're getting these numbers?


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## Vinod2070

notorious_eagle said:


> We can sustain it for 45 days. Please explain how you're getting these numbers?



Read it somewhere. Will post if I can dig that out.

This is what happened in 1965 as well where PA was out of ammunition and India had 80% of the stock still intact.

Yes, your spending may be more now but so will be the intensity and cost of armament. Things have not changed much on a relative scale, they have only gotten worse.

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## Capt.Popeye

Flamingo said:


> Arey _Ghazab_, Yeh toh Latest news Hai


 
_Ghazab to hai; Mohatarma. 
Miah ney dimagh sey kuch ajooba hi nikala hai._

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## Parul

Capt.Popeye said:


> _Ghazab to hai; Mohatarma.
> Miah ney dimagh sey kuch ajooba hi nikala hai._



a sad miah bhi ajoobay say kam nahi hai. PDF ka professional KOHINOOR HEERA hai...
a sad miah.

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## danger007

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.




arey yar,you are the professional...keep it up??? but does BN have sub??got fund to buy atleast 1960's sub??? Forget about upgrades.... killer sub? to kill AC??? oh my god we should hide our P-8I...do we need to use AC for BN???? our Coast gaurd is enough for the BN.... anyways forget about Sub...first buy an Helicopter for your NAVY??? When did you check the Maintenance of our NAVAL SHIPS???

Remove TURKEY,INDONESIA,MALAYSIA,UAE,S ARABIA,UAE,CHINA,PN...none of the above want to fight with IN.... who remained BN with no fighters,choppers,frigate,Destroyers....with the just fishing trawlers what you guys gonna do...TROLLING???

First of all, Does bd and pak got good relation to align???

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## Parul

danger007 said:


> arey yar,you are the professional...keep it up??? but did BN have sub??got fund to buy atleast 1960's sub??? Forget about upgrades.... killer sub? to kill AC??? oh my god we should hide our P-8I...do we need to use AC for BN???? our Coast gaurd is enough for the BN.... anyways forget about Sub...first buy an Helicopter for your NAVY??? When did you check the Maintenance of our NAVAL SHIPS???
> 
> Remove TURKEY,INDONESIA,MALAYSIA,UAE,S ARABIA,UAE,CHINA,PN...none of the above want to fight with IN.... who remained BN with no fighters,choppers,frigate,Destroyers....with the just fishing trawlers what you guys gonna do...TROLLING???
> 
> First of all, Does bd and pak got good relation to align???



 a sad miah is a Professional Troll.

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## notorious_eagle

Vinod2070 said:


> This is what happened in 1965 as well where PA was out of ammunition and India had 80% of the stock still intact.



I didn't know that it was 1965.

Pakistan since than has worked very hard to ensure that it maintains adequate supplies. Officially doctrine states that Pakistan maintains 45 days worth of supplies, and that is a very conservative number. Since than, PA and other fighting forces have developed a very elaborative concept of supply depots spread throughout the country. In conclusion, you need to do more research on Pakistan's Logistical Capability instead of blurting out unsubstantiated statements. 



Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, your spending may be more now but so will be the intensity and cost of armament. Things have not changed much on a relative scale, they have only gotten worse.



Not really, the balance of power is roughly the same. Pakistan is still immune from a military strike from India and can match India at Corps Level Deployment.

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## kaykay

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.


Je baat Professional saheb!!!


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## SrNair

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.




Ha ha .Very nice try.But we think IN is more professional than you.Actually they show it in 1971,and BD born.


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## acetophenol

asad71 said:


> 1.An AC is a white elephant without necessary compliments of craft/eqpt to make a unit with the AC as the centrepiece. Unless integrated into the national plan/strategy/doctrine to wage war,the AC can be a liability.Aside WMD AC is the important strategic asset a nation can posses. Using the AC merely to project power,when there is none,can costly.To obtain operational capability a fleet with AC will need extensive and lengthy training/exercise -which themselves are expensive.
> 
> 2.IN's maintenance level is quite poor and really laughable for such a large navy.An AC contains some sophisticated tools/eqpt which will puzzle IN Maintenance/Logistics for long.
> 
> 3. To counter IN ACs, PN and BN need to acquire killer subs - always upgrading them. Also should be inducted is the Chinese AC Killer missile.
> 
> 4. The lay of the Indian Ocean demand that PN forge close relations with the navies of Indonesia,BD, Malaysia,SL,UAE and S Arabia.And extend this to Turkey and China.Training, joint exercises, and reciprocity base arrangements should be forged.


You are questioning IN's ability to Operate an AC?Do you realize that IN has been operating them for several decades,and including INS Vikrant AC playing a major role in '71 war?


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## UKBengali

danger007 said:


> arey yar,you are the professional...keep it up??? but does BN have sub??got fund to buy atleast 1960's sub??? Forget about upgrades.... killer sub? to kill AC??? oh my god we should hide our P-8I...do we need to use AC for BN???? our Coast gaurd is enough for the BN.... anyways forget about Sub...first buy an Helicopter for your NAVY??? When did you check the Maintenance of our NAVAL SHIPS???
> 
> Remove TURKEY,INDONESIA,MALAYSIA,UAE,S ARABIA,UAE,CHINA,PN...none of the above want to fight with IN.... who remained BN with no fighters,choppers,frigate,Destroyers....with the just fishing trawlers what you guys gonna do...TROLLING???
> 
> First of all, Does bd and pak got good relation to align???



BD Navy is no match for Indian Navy but it will not be as bad as you think.

By the time both your new carriers are ready BD will likely have:

1/ 2-3 Modern submarines.
2/ 5 frigates with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
3/ 6-8 corvettes with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
4/ Possibly 2-3 frigates with 24-32 VLS medium range SAMs - Chinese will have them available for countries like BD at an affordable price(200-250 million each) but not sure yet whether BD will purchase though.


No match for IN but way more powerful than the Indian coast guard!


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## danger007

UKBengali said:


> BD Navy is no match for Indian Navy but it will not be as bad as you think.
> 
> By the time both your new carriers are ready BD will likely have:
> 
> 1/ 2-3 Modern submarines.
> 2/ 5 frigates with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
> 3/ 6-8 corvettes with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
> 4/ Possibly 2-3 frigates with 24-32 VLS medium range SAMs - Chinese will have them available for countries like BD at an affordable price(200-250 million each) but not sure yet whether BD will purchase though.
> 
> 
> No match for IN but way more powerful than the Indian coast guard!



Tell me one thing does BD got funds to buy 1 modern Sub???? Sub are not any Pizza to get within 30min.... You need to make deal by this year end If you want to have operational sub by the time Both Vikky and IAC1 is operational together....5 frigates??? lol get one frigate and 2 corvettes...

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## UKBengali

danger007 said:


> Tell me one thing does BD got funds to buy 1 modern Sub???? Sub are not any Pizza to get within 30min.... You need to make deal by this year end If you want to have operational sub by the time Both Vikky and IAC1 is operational together....5 frigates??? lol get one frigate and 2 corvettes...



BD already has 3 frigates and 2 more have been ordered. Those two are due to arrive in BD by early next year.

3 submarines from China will cost 1 billion dollars. BD spent 4 billion dollars in the last 5 years on arms imports.

Deal has already been made for two Chinese subs for training purposes but they will not be the modern Song/Yuan types.

BD's 150 billion dollar economy is forecast to grow at nearly 7% a year to 2018 - you can do the math there.


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## kaykay

@UKBengali no disrespect but I just checked BD naval ships and Myanmar Naval ships and found that Myanmar is better equipped atleast with current ships.
Also though its offtopic but I would like to see comparision between future of BD navy and Myanmar navy considering Myanmar to operate 8 Frigates(6 Indigenous), 2-4 submarines(kilo class), 2-4 corvettes each armed with 4 C-802 missiles, 10 FACs each armed with 4 C-802 anti-ship missiles by 2020.

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## Shadow_Hunter

kaykay said:


> @UKBengali no disrespect but I just checked BD naval ships and Myanmar Naval ships and found that Myanmar is better equipped atleast with current ships.
> Also though its offtopic but I would like to see comparision between future of BD navy and Myanmar navy considering Myanmar to operate 8 Frigates(6 Indigenous), 2-4 submarines(kilo class), 2-4 corvettes each armed with 4 C-802 missiles, 10 FACs each armed with 4 C-802 anti-ship missiles by 2020.



Thats a better navy than pakistan. Bangladesh needs to gear up

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## asad71

danger007 said:


> Tell me one thing does BD got funds to buy 1 modern Sub???? Sub are not any Pizza to get within 30min.... You need to make deal by this year end If you want to have operational sub by the time Both Vikky and IAC1 is operational together....5 frigates??? lol get one frigate and 2 corvettes...


1.Graft ridden nation and graft ridden defense sector should be ashamed to raise voice. Have you forgotten what all went on in acquiring the Russian scrapped ship Vikramaditya? And don't lecture us on a Service famed for wife-swapping.What a filthy dirty lot of scums!

2. Fyi,we have several subs on offer to us for free from PLAN - including basing a nuclear sub in a base to be constructed by them.That is recorded in the proceedings of the Parliamentary Committee on Defense headed by Gen Mahbub during BNP rule.


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## danger007

asad71 said:


> 1.Graft ridden nation and graft ridden defense sector should be ashamed to raise voice. Have you forgotten what all went on in acquiring the Russian scrapped ship Vikramaditya? And don't lecture us on a Service famed for wife-swapping.What a filthy dirty lot of scums!
> 
> 2. Fyi,we have several subs on offer to us for free from PLAN - including basing a nuclear sub in a base to be constructed by them.That is recorded in the proceedings of the Parliamentary Committee on Defense headed by Gen Mahbub during BNP rule.


Nuke sub to BN???  enough jokes for the day.... lol delusional again...

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## Capt.Popeye

danger007 said:


> Nuke sub to BN???  enough jokes for the day.... lol delusional again...


 
_Lagta ki Banda bilkul sathiya gaya hai....._

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## danger007

Capt.Popeye said:


> _Lagta ki Banda bilkul sathiya gaya hai....._



e Banda ko Nanga carrier bahut chalak, modern lagti hi... lol lio nanga tho bahut advanced AC nikla,US carrier se bi..bina jets....


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## Mitro

in case of war both country will take out target of interest from ballistic missile like
Air field ,Naval dock,command centre Ballastic missile storage and silos just few example's

It will take atleast 4 - 5 years before the carrier and the destroyer get fully equiped with LR-SAM[Barak-8] till then good luck to protect it .in war when a enemy can destroy enemy air field and fighter plane before they can take off with heavy protection then any thing can happen to air craft carrier battle group.Awacs have made it more interesting because they can locate enemy ship from more then 400 kms and can direct the attack to the target.

with limited resourses pakistan is always happen to maintain conventionally edge with india superior machine.

Future war will be multi-dimension and multi nation so it will be very difficult war i think india should focus on china more then pakistan because of MAD scenario[matual assured destruction].Always give defeating army a passage to escape or they will fight till they die and in this case we all know what will happen.

Technology is changing so rapidly and with friend like china the situation in sub continent can change very rapidly so its very important to keep on doing innovation and improving ratherthen celebrating paper victory .


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## MilSpec

UKBengali said:


> BD already has 3 frigates and 2 more have been ordered. Those two are due to arrive in BD by early next year.
> 
> 3 submarines from China will cost 1 billion dollars. BD spent 4 billion dollars in the last 5 years on arms imports.
> 
> Deal has already been made for two Chinese subs for training purposes but they will not be the modern Song/Yuan types.
> 
> BD's 150 billion dollar economy is forecast to grow at nearly 7% a year to 2018 - *you can do the math there.*



Is the math poiting towards obliterating IN??? please do look up IN strength, and in a tactical scenario, the rest of Indian military.... I am pleasantly surprised when bangladeshi members want to turn India-Bn scenario into a regional conflict theater, when there are no scenario' which can lead to one....


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## UKBengali

sandy_3126 said:


> Is the math poiting towards obliterating IN??? please do look up IN strength, and in a tactical scenario, the rest of Indian military.... I am pleasantly surprised when bangladeshi members want to turn India-Bn scenario into a regional conflict theater, when there are no scenario' which can lead to one....



Why do people never read post history in their entirety and jump to conclusions on incomplete information!

I was replying to a poster who was confident that the Indian Coast Guard was more than enough for the BD Navy and that BD was too poor to afford modern submarines.

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## danger007

asad71 said:


> You can't read or what?The nuke sub of PLAN will be based here. And what is so very funny if BN eventually acquires a nuke sub? Just like your low-cast mind cannot digest the fact that your cricket team was beaten by ours again and again.



Yes am belong to low cast and am Dalith... I am Proud to be Indian...I am happy with my country... before going personal.... let me remind you one thing... am PH.D scholar,researching MAGLEV EMS and EDS..... what are you??? mind your language..i don't give damn about you nor about your country... delusional people.... There will be no free things from china...

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## MilSpec

UKBengali said:


> Why do people never read post history in their entirety and jump to conclusions on incomplete information!
> 
> I was replying to a poster who was confident that the Indian Coast Guard was more than enough for the BD Navy and that BD was too poor to afford modern submarines.



I am not sure about the merit of comparison with ICG, but the contention is metaphorical with mammoth sized OPV and IPV fleet that out numbers BN patrol fleet by almost 4 to 5 times for ICG, along with 38 Do 228 maritime surveillance aircraft, 9 ALH's and 18 chetak utility helicopters. On operating inventory, personell, and air wing of Indian coast guards, it is larger than the entire BN combined....



asad71 said:


> You can't read or what?The nuke sub of PLAN will be based here. And what is so very funny if BN eventually acquires a nuke sub? Just like your low-cast mind cannot digest the fact that your cricket team was beaten by ours again and again.



Man... you are funny... I like reading your posts....

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## MilSpec

asad71 said:


> You can't read or what?The nuke sub of PLAN will be based here. And what is so very funny if BN eventually acquires a nuke sub? Just like your low-cast mind cannot digest the fact that your cricket team was beaten by ours again and again.



Yes absolutely we were humbled when your team won the world cup, and is currently reigning no 1 ODI side & No2 Test and T20 side....... emm wait thats India...

But I do wish that your dream comes true, all the the countries you envisage do vulture around India, that will make us only more stronger,

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## UKBengali

sandy_3126 said:


> I am not sure about the merit of comparison with ICG, but the contention is metaphorical with mammoth sized OPV and IPV fleet that out numbers BN patrol fleet by almost 4 to 5 times for ICG, along with 38 Do 228 maritime surveillance aircraft, 9 ALH's and 18 chetak utility helicopters. On operating inventory, personell, and air wing of Indian coast guards, it is larger than the entire BN combined....



Let us be realistic.

Indian coast guard will be heavily out-gunned by the BD Navy that will come into being by the end of the decade. Having greater numbers of vessels will count for nothing when the anti-ship missiles from the BD Navy's frigates and corvettes blow them out of the water

It is pretty much guaranteed that 2-3 modern submarines, 5 frigates and 6-8 corvettes that will be nearly as powerful as the frigates will be in service

While this is now speculation, it is not unrealistic to also add 2/3 ultra-modern frigates with 24/32 VLS with medium range SAMs may also be available.

How will BD pay for this? I repeat that with a 150 billion dollar economy, that is predicted to grow at nearly 7% a year for the next 5 years, this is very much possible.

There is no way the Indian coast guard will be any match for the small but the relatively modern BD Navy by the end of this decade.


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## MilSpec

UKBengali said:


> Let us be realistic.
> 
> Indian coast guard will be heavily out-gunned by the BD Navy that will come into being by the end of the decade. Having greater numbers of vessels will count for nothing when the anti-ship missiles from the BD Navy's frigates and corvettes blow them out of the water



My bad, i thought you understood what metaphorical meant, but I am quite amused that you scratched your head to have one on one with ICG, that does bring a smile...




UKBengali said:


> Let us be realistic.It is pretty much guaranteed that 2-3 modern submarines, 5 frigates and 6-8 corvettes that will be nearly as powerful as the frigates will be in service
> 
> While this is now speculation, it is not unrealistic to also add 2/3 ultra-modern frigates with 24/32 VLS with medium range SAMs may also be available.


If you are being realistic, why spend money on asymmetrical growth in armed forces when there is no adversary present in the distant horizon...




UKBengali said:


> How will BD pay for this? I repeat that with a 150 billion dollar economy, that is predicted to grow at nearly 7% a year for the next 5 years, this is very much possible.
> 
> There is now way the Indian coast guard will be any much for the small but the relatively modern BD Navy by the end of this decade.


I had commented on the patrolling capability based on the strength of the IPV's and OPV's, but *if* your contentions still stands to confront some navy in the Indian ocean, Myanmar would be a good candidate to start,

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## UKBengali

sandy_3126 said:


> I had commented on the patrolling capability based on the strength of the IPV's and OPV's, but *if* your contentions still stands to confront some navy in the Indian ocean, Myanmar would be a good candidate to start,



BD has no real wish to confront anyone.

India is far too powerful now and Myanmar dispute has been settled.

BD needs at least a certain level of capability to act as some kind of deterrent to even India.Maybe nothing credible this decade but certainly towards the end of the next.

It seems settled that around 2% of GDP will be spent on defence and this will allow increasing funding as the economy grows over time. With the increasing sophistication of Chinese arms and coupled with generous finance terms( and before anyone makes a comment BD will pay for all arms in full), it seems possible that by 2030 BD could have a pretty decent Navy.


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## Slayer786

sandy_3126 said:


> Yes absolutely we were humbled when your team won the world cup, and is currently reigning no 1 ODI side & No2 Test and T20 side....... emm wait thats India...
> 
> But I do wish that your dream comes true, all the the countries you envisage do vulture around India, that will make us only more stronger,




lol. He was talking about us beating you india. Not about rankings which you guys achieved by beating other teams. But against us you lost more. LOL. 


ODI:

125 played. Pak won 71, India won 50, Tied 4

Test:
59 played. Pak won 12, India won 9, Draw 38

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## danger007

Slayer786 said:


> lol. He was talking about us beating you india. Not about rankings which you guys achieved by beating other teams. But against us you lost more. LOL.
> 
> 
> ODI:
> 
> 125 played. Pak won 71, India won 50, Tied 4
> 
> Test:
> 59 played. Pak won 12, India won 9, Draw 38




Sleep tight... we sliced some thing in 1971...

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## Echo_419

danger007 said:


> Yes am belong to low cast and am Dalith... I am Proud to be Indian...I am happy with my country... before going personal.... let me remind you one thing... am *PH.D scholar,researching MAGLEV EMS and EDS*..... what are you??? mind your language..i don't give damn about you nor about your country... delusional people.... There will be no free things from china...



Yeh Kya hota hai


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## danger007

Echo_419 said:


> Yeh Kya hota hai


MAGLEV in other words bullet train... am researching Electro Dynamic Suspension and as well as Magnetic Suspension, Super conductors ...etc...

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## GURU DUTT

kamal ho gaya ye thread abhi tak chal raha hai


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## PiyaraPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> kamal ho gaya ye thread abhi tak chal raha hai


me bhi ye hi soch raha ho.


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## Vinod2070

notorious_eagle said:


> I didn't know that it was 1965.
> 
> Pakistan since than has worked very hard to ensure that it maintains adequate supplies. Officially doctrine states that Pakistan maintains 45 days worth of supplies, and that is a very conservative number. Since than, PA and other fighting forces have developed a very elaborative concept of supply depots spread throughout the country. In conclusion, you need to do more research on Pakistan's Logistical Capability instead of blurting out unsubstantiated statements.
> 
> Not really, the balance of power is roughly the same. Pakistan is still immune from a military strike from India and can match India at Corps Level Deployment.



Well, there is a 6-7 times gap in defense spending at the very least.

It has to translate somewhere.


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## Immanuel

UKBengali said:


> BD already has 3 frigates and 2 more have been ordered. Those two are due to arrive in BD by early next year.
> 
> 3 submarines from China will cost 1 billion dollars. BD spent 4 billion dollars in the last 5 years on arms imports.
> 
> Deal has already been made for two Chinese subs for training purposes but they will not be the modern Song/Yuan types.
> 
> BD's 150 billion dollar economy is forecast to grow at nearly 7% a year to 2018 - you can do the math there.


 

Really 

BD only exists because our dears Indira and Sam decided to send in troops to liberate that patch of semi submerged pile of increasing garbage. You now want to compare or confront India. ICG is vast and is one of the fastest growing part of the Indian military establishment.

IN won't even come to play if BD has to be taught a lesson. ICG is more than BD can handle.


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## arp2041

UKBengali said:


> BD already has 3 frigates and 2 more have been ordered. Those two are due to arrive in BD by early next year.
> 
> 3 submarines from China will cost 1 billion dollars. BD spent 4 billion dollars in the last 5 years on arms imports.
> 
> Deal has already been made for two Chinese subs for training purposes but they will not be the modern Song/Yuan types.
> 
> *BD's 150 billion dollar economy is forecast to grow at nearly 7% a year to 2018 - you can do the math there.*



But BD is predicted to be under Bay of Bangal by 2050

Potential impact of sea-level rise on Bangladesh | GRID-Arendal - Publications - Vital Climate Graphics

Warming Climate to Hit Bangladesh Hard with Sea Level Rise, More Floods and Cyclones, World Bank Report Says

YOU CAN DO THE *GEOGRAPHY* HERE.

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## danger007

arp2041 said:


> But BD is predicted to be under Bay of Bangal by 2050
> 
> Potential impact of sea-level rise on Bangladesh | GRID-Arendal - Publications - Vital Climate Graphics
> 
> Warming Climate to Hit Bangladesh Hard with Sea Level Rise, More Floods and Cyclones, World Bank Report Says
> 
> YOU CAN DO THE *GEOGRAPHY* HERE.



lol... be aware... all BD nationals will surround India to Contain us through Bay of bengal and Indian ocean....


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## UKBengali

arp2041 said:


> But BD is predicted to be under Bay of Bangal by 2050
> 
> Potential impact of sea-level rise on Bangladesh | GRID-Arendal - Publications - Vital Climate Graphics
> 
> Warming Climate to Hit Bangladesh Hard with Sea Level Rise, More Floods and Cyclones, World Bank Report Says
> 
> YOU CAN DO THE *GEOGRAPHY* HERE.





http://archive.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=135529

Land mass of BD is actually increasing.

Anyway some forecasts have predicted the landmass to decrease by 16% by 2050 if NOTHING is done. This is not good but hardly the end of BD.

All that an increasingly prosperous BD has to do is to devote maybe 1% of it's GDP to sea defences and even this worse case scenario will not happen.

Sit back and burn while BD increases it's military power with the help of China.



Immanuel said:


> Really
> 
> BD only exists because our dears Indira and Sam decided to send in troops to liberate that patch of semi submerged pile of increasing garbage. You now want to compare or confront India. ICG is vast and is one of the fastest growing part of the Indian military establishment.
> 
> *IN won't even come to play if BD has to be taught a lesson. ICG is more than BD can handle.*



What weapon does ICG have to engage BD frigates and corvettes then?


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## Slayer786

danger007 said:


> Sleep tight... we sliced some thing in 1971...



Well then you better sleep really peacefully. Because we have carved Pakistan out of India and Bangladesh plus we took Gilgit and Baltistan too and gave a little of Kashmir to China too. So lol when we talk about carving India has been carved out so much that I feel sorry for you indians who were dreaming of 'Akhund Bharat' or whatever that is.


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## Janmejay

danger007 said:


> MAGLEV in other words bullet train... am researching Electro Dynamic Suspension and as well as Magnetic Suspension, Super conductors ...etc...





danger007 said:


> MAGLEV in other words bullet train... am researching Electro Dynamic Suspension and as well as Magnetic Suspension, Super conductors ...etc...


in india or abroad?


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## danger007

Janmejay said:


> in india or abroad?




Japan...currently living in India only..

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## Immanuel

What weapon does ICG have to engage BD frigates and corvettes then?[/quote]

ICG doesn't need weapons, ICG can with relative ease block all incoming ships to BD in the first place. Moreover, BD's enemy number 1 is the floods, BD shouldn't be looking to make any more enmies. Mother nature alone is more of an enemy than BD can handle

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## GURU DUTT

Slayer786 said:


> Well then you better sleep really peacefully. Because we have carved Pakistan out of India and Bangladesh plus we took Gilgit and Baltistan too and gave a little of Kashmir to China too. So lol when we talk about carving India has been carved out so much that I feel sorry for you indians who were dreaming of 'Akhund Bharat' or whatever that is.


well no indian dreams of akhand bharat and taking back/merging pakistan & bangladesh with india is owr biggest nightmare lolzzz we never wanted it other wise we could have merged bangladesh way back in 1971 but we dint cause we know its not worth it its better for us to keep you two intact and free

now the thread is about INS vikmraditya and Vikrant well we dont need CBGs or carriers now fro pakistan or bangladesh as owr land based air planes are enof to control you guys its for extending indias reach to monitor far into arbaian sea and indian ocean as for mallacka streits well IAF & IN is in process of rebuilduing and mordenizing its old Air bases in Andamn and nicobar islands which soon will hosta couple of Mid air refulers+ 3 AWACS,6 P8I ,40 MKIs + 40 LCA and equal number of helicopters with at least + one infantry and 1 imphibious assult division and a few Subs 

so my friend sleep tight dont worry the latest purchases are not for pakistan or bangladesh but for countering risks posted by over zelous and ever agressive dragon and its policy of so called "string of pearls"

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## SrNair

Slayer786 said:


> Well then you better sleep really peacefully. Because we have carved Pakistan out of India and Bangladesh plus we took Gilgit and Baltistan too and gave a little of Kashmir to China too. So lol when we talk about carving India has been carved out so much that I feel sorry for you indians who were dreaming of 'Akhund Bharat' or whatever that is.



BD illegal immigrants already a liability.Who talk about AKHAND BHARAT to you ?.some guys in India
talk that and you think that is the policy of GOI pathetic.Who want a failed state like pakistan,man 
use some brain otherwise go and die

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## notorious_eagle

Vinod2070 said:


> Well, there is a 6-7 times gap in defense spending at the very least.
> 
> It has to translate somewhere.



It certainly hasn't translated down to the force level. As i said before, Pakistan can counter India's Corps or Division Level Deployment Strength.


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## Slayer786

sreekumar said:


> BD illegal immigrants already a liability.Who talk about AKHAND BHARAT to you ?.some guys in India
> talk that and you think that is the policy of GOI pathetic.Who want a failed state like pakistan,man
> use some brain otherwise go and die




Now we are going away from the topic. But yes since the BJP came to power after the shameful destruction of Babri Masjid. Indians have started dreaming about 'Akhund Bharat'. Now with Narendan Modi BJP is set to rise and have a chance of winning the elections. 

*IN THE SHADOW OF SHIVA*
*Crazed Hindu-fascists threaten the world*
_
"I am become Death, the shatterer of worlds."

*Behind the Headlines
by Justin Raimondo
Antiwar.com*
*June 3, 2002*

*HINDU-FASCISM IN ACTION*

*T*he rise of Hindu fundamentalism as a political force in India catapulted the Bharatiya Janata Party to power and sought to expunge the Gandhian pacifism of the old militantly secular Congress Party tradition, replacing it with a new martial spirit. The idea of Hindutva, which energizes the Hindu activists, sees India not only as a Hindu state, but as a militantly revanchist force in the region, a nation determined to recapture its old empire. As I explained in a previous column devoted to this fascinating subject, the Hindutva movement has created a whole mythology based on the idea of ethnic Indians as the first and only pure Aryans: the swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol, and has been revived by what I call the Hindu-fascist forces in India. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological center of Hindutva, has a provision in its constitution that its leader must be a blue-eyed Sarasvat Brahmin.

I hesitate to use the term "neo-Nazi" to describe a contemporary political movement, as it has become almost a ritualistic term of abuse. However, in this case, the label fits precisely: to begin with, the Hindutva theory of "Aryan" racial superiority is nearly identical to that of the German Nazis. Hitler’s followers borrowed not only the swastika but also adopted other mythic aspects of Hindu mysticism, such as the alleged Arctic origins of the "Aryan" race propagated by B. G. Tilak and others.

Marquand cites Francine Frankel, director of the Center for the Advanced Study of India, as saying that India's ruling party "has reinterpreted Hinduism to include a manly assertiveness." This is confirmed by the exclamation of one Hindu leader who, averring his support for India's nuclear program, declared "We are no longer eunuchs!"

The psycho-religious symbolism of India's nuclear exhibitionism may have eluded our political leaders, but it wasn't lost on the scholarly community. Marquand cites Sanskrit scholar Surendra Gamphir, who says militarism is so "deeply embedded [a] concept in Hindu culture that you hold scripture in one hand and a weapon in the other."

In short, what we are dealing with, in India, is a bunch of neo-Nazi nutballs with a giant nuclear chip on their shoulders – and suffering under a terrible feeling of inadequacy, or impotency. Calling a group or party "nutballs" is a bit harsh: but, again, there is no other way to describe the Indian leaders' professed indifference to the consequences of a nuclear exchange. Surely a stoic calm in the face of such a horror has deep – and dark – psychological roots. Such a volatile mixture of psychological and ideological maladies ought to have set off alarm bells, back in 1998, when they became a nuclear power, but nobody seemed to "connect the dots," as they say. As Marquand pointed out at the time:

"Yet after last month's test, experts in New Delhi and Washington are not speaking of a 'Hindu bomb' - [even] as they speak of an 'Islamic bomb.'"

India made its position clear last year, when George Fernandes, India's defense minister, declared:

"We could take a strike, survive and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished."

One Western diplomat worried aloud that "these people have never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," but, then again, perhaps Westerners have trouble understanding the concept of reincarnation, which figures prominently in the religions of Asia, and especially in the Hindu tradition. You may be incinerated by a nuclear bomb in this life, but don't worry – you'll come back. Perhaps as a citizen of a more civilized country, where the idea of mass death is unthinkable. It's the next best thing to a green card.

Source: Antiwar.com

_


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## danger007

Slayer786 said:


> Now we are going away from the topic. But yes since the BJP came to power after the shameful destruction of Babri Masjid. Indians have started dreaming about 'Akhund Bharat'. Now with Narendan Modi BJP is set to rise and have a chance of winning the elections.
> 
> *IN THE SHADOW OF SHIVA*
> *Crazed Hindu-fascists threaten the world*
> _"I am become Death, the shatterer of worlds."
> 
> *Behind the Headlines*
> *by Justin Raimondo*
> *Antiwar.com*
> *June 3, 2002*
> 
> *HINDU-FASCISM IN ACTION*
> 
> *T*he rise of Hindu fundamentalism as a political force in India catapulted the Bharatiya Janata Party to power and sought to expunge the Gandhian pacifism of the old militantly secular Congress Party tradition, replacing it with a new martial spirit. The idea of Hindutva, which energizes the Hindu activists, sees India not only as a Hindu state, but as a militantly revanchist force in the region, a nation determined to recapture its old empire. As I explained in a previous column devoted to this fascinating subject, the Hindutva movement has created a whole mythology based on the idea of ethnic Indians as the first and only pure Aryans: the swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol, and has been revived by what I call the Hindu-fascist forces in India. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological center of Hindutva, has a provision in its constitution that its leader must be a blue-eyed Sarasvat Brahmin.
> 
> I hesitate to use the term "neo-Nazi" to describe a contemporary political movement, as it has become almost a ritualistic term of abuse. However, in this case, the label fits precisely: to begin with, the Hindutva theory of "Aryan" racial superiority is nearly identical to that of the German Nazis. Hitler’s followers borrowed not only the swastika but also adopted other mythic aspects of Hindu mysticism, such as the alleged Arctic origins of the "Aryan" race propagated by B. G. Tilak and others.
> 
> Marquand cites Francine Frankel, director of the Center for the Advanced Study of India, as saying that India's ruling party "has reinterpreted Hinduism to include a manly assertiveness." This is confirmed by the exclamation of one Hindu leader who, averring his support for India's nuclear program, declared "We are no longer eunuchs!"
> 
> The psycho-religious symbolism of India's nuclear exhibitionism may have eluded our political leaders, but it wasn't lost on the scholarly community. Marquand cites Sanskrit scholar Surendra Gamphir, who says militarism is so "deeply embedded [a] concept in Hindu culture that you hold scripture in one hand and a weapon in the other."
> 
> In short, what we are dealing with, in India, is a bunch of neo-Nazi nutballs with a giant nuclear chip on their shoulders – and suffering under a terrible feeling of inadequacy, or impotency. Calling a group or party "nutballs" is a bit harsh: but, again, there is no other way to describe the Indian leaders' professed indifference to the consequences of a nuclear exchange. Surely a stoic calm in the face of such a horror has deep – and dark – psychological roots. Such a volatile mixture of psychological and ideological maladies ought to have set off alarm bells, back in 1998, when they became a nuclear power, but nobody seemed to "connect the dots," as they say. As Marquand pointed out at the time:
> 
> "Yet after last month's test, experts in New Delhi and Washington are not speaking of a 'Hindu bomb' - [even] as they speak of an 'Islamic bomb.'"
> 
> India made its position clear last year, when George Fernandes, India's defense minister, declared:
> 
> "We could take a strike, survive and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished."
> 
> One Western diplomat worried aloud that "these people have never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," but, then again, perhaps Westerners have trouble understanding the concept of reincarnation, which figures prominently in the religions of Asia, and especially in the Hindu tradition. You may be incinerated by a nuclear bomb in this life, but don't worry – you'll come back. Perhaps as a citizen of a more civilized country, where the idea of mass death is unthinkable. It's the next best thing to a green card.
> 
> Source: Antiwar.com
> _


you should read the thread title... stop posting your non-sense..


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## MilSpec

@Neptune @Loki ... some cleanup for off topics...plz


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## Slayer786

danger007 said:


> you should read the thread title... stop posting your non-sense..



I did write that I was going off-topic. But the guy was asking for it. LOL. And when you guys dont have anything to reply. This excuse comes up.

Anyway, getting back to the topic. I dont believe that India will have an easy time with the blockade even with two aircraft carriers. An experts opinion below.

*What Might an India-Pakistan War Look Like?*
_By Christopher Clary

India's substantial quantitative and qualitative naval superiority is unlikely to be an important factor in a short, limited war. India has twelve frigates to Pakistan's six, an aging aircraft carrier and ten destroyers where Pakistan has none, twenty corvettes with anti-ship missiles compared to Pakistan's six smaller missile boats, and fourteen diesel-electric submarines compared to Pakistan's five (excluding Pakistan's midget subs).6 But the question is not which navy would win a maritime war, but rather whether the Indian Navy could beat its Pakistani counterpart so decisively and quickly that it might alter the strategic situation on land. Past India-Pakistan conflicts have been brief. Large-scale fighting lasted one month in 1965, two weeks in 1971, and two months in the 1999 Kargil conflict. As a result, the Indian Navy played a limited role in earlier Indo-Pakistani conflicts and this pattern seems likely to persist.

Most analyses do not account adequately for how difficult it would be for the navy to have a substantial impact in a short period of time. Establishing even a partial blockade takes time, and it takes even more time for that blockade to cause shortages on land that are noticeable. As the British strategist Julian Corbett noted in 1911, "it is almost impossible that a war can be decided by naval action alone. Unaided, naval pressure can only work by a process of exhaustion. Its effects must always be slow…."7 Meanwhile, over the last decade, Pakistan has increased its ability to resist a blockade. In addition to the main commercial port of Karachi, Pakistan has opened up new ports further west in Ormara and Gwadar and built road infrastructure to distribute goods from those ports to Pakistan's heartland. To close off these ports to neutral shipping could prove particularly difficult since Gwadar and the edge of Pakistani waters are very close to the Gulf of Oman, host to the international shipping lanes for vessels exiting the Persian Gulf. A loose blockade far from shore would minimize risks from Pakistan's land-based countermeasures but also increase risks of creating a political incident with neutral vessels. Even if India were to be successful in establishing a blockade, new overland routes to China are likely to further protect Pakistan from strangulation from the sea. While the navy is not irrelevant, there are strong reasons to be skeptical that the naval balance has tilted in such a way as to affect strategic outcomes in a limited India-Pakistan conflict.

Source: MIT Center for International Studies_


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## SrNair

Slayer786 said:


> Now we are going away from the topic. But yes since the BJP came to power after the shameful destruction of Babri Masjid. Indians have started dreaming about 'Akhund Bharat'. Now with Narendan Modi BJP is set to rise and have a chance of winning the elections.
> 
> *IN THE SHADOW OF SHIVA*
> *Crazed Hindu-fascists threaten the world*
> _"I am become Death, the shatterer of worlds."
> 
> *Behind the Headlines*
> *by Justin Raimondo*
> *Antiwar.com*
> *June 3, 2002*
> 
> *HINDU-FASCISM IN ACTION*
> 
> *T*he rise of Hindu fundamentalism as a political force in India catapulted the Bharatiya Janata Party to power and sought to expunge the Gandhian pacifism of the old militantly secular Congress Party tradition, replacing it with a new martial spirit. The idea of Hindutva, which energizes the Hindu activists, sees India not only as a Hindu state, but as a militantly revanchist force in the region, a nation determined to recapture its old empire. As I explained in a previous column devoted to this fascinating subject, the Hindutva movement has created a whole mythology based on the idea of ethnic Indians as the first and only pure Aryans: the swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol, and has been revived by what I call the Hindu-fascist forces in India. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological center of Hindutva, has a provision in its constitution that its leader must be a blue-eyed Sarasvat Brahmin.
> 
> I hesitate to use the term "neo-Nazi" to describe a contemporary political movement, as it has become almost a ritualistic term of abuse. However, in this case, the label fits precisely: to begin with, the Hindutva theory of "Aryan" racial superiority is nearly identical to that of the German Nazis. Hitler’s followers borrowed not only the swastika but also adopted other mythic aspects of Hindu mysticism, such as the alleged Arctic origins of the "Aryan" race propagated by B. G. Tilak and others.
> 
> Marquand cites Francine Frankel, director of the Center for the Advanced Study of India, as saying that India's ruling party "has reinterpreted Hinduism to include a manly assertiveness." This is confirmed by the exclamation of one Hindu leader who, averring his support for India's nuclear program, declared "We are no longer eunuchs!"
> 
> The psycho-religious symbolism of India's nuclear exhibitionism may have eluded our political leaders, but it wasn't lost on the scholarly community. Marquand cites Sanskrit scholar Surendra Gamphir, who says militarism is so "deeply embedded [a] concept in Hindu culture that you hold scripture in one hand and a weapon in the other."
> 
> In short, what we are dealing with, in India, is a bunch of neo-Nazi nutballs with a giant nuclear chip on their shoulders – and suffering under a terrible feeling of inadequacy, or impotency. Calling a group or party "nutballs" is a bit harsh: but, again, there is no other way to describe the Indian leaders' professed indifference to the consequences of a nuclear exchange. Surely a stoic calm in the face of such a horror has deep – and dark – psychological roots. Such a volatile mixture of psychological and ideological maladies ought to have set off alarm bells, back in 1998, when they became a nuclear power, but nobody seemed to "connect the dots," as they say. As Marquand pointed out at the time:
> 
> "Yet after last month's test, experts in New Delhi and Washington are not speaking of a 'Hindu bomb' - [even] as they speak of an 'Islamic bomb.'"
> 
> India made its position clear last year, when George Fernandes, India's defense minister, declared:
> 
> "We could take a strike, survive and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished."
> 
> One Western diplomat worried aloud that "these people have never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," but, then again, perhaps Westerners have trouble understanding the concept of reincarnation, which figures prominently in the religions of Asia, and especially in the Hindu tradition. You may be incinerated by a nuclear bomb in this life, but don't worry – you'll come back. Perhaps as a citizen of a more civilized country, where the idea of mass death is unthinkable. It's the next best thing to a green card.
> 
> Source: Antiwar.com
> _




Again I told you ,use your brain or go and die.I am just answer your question ,it is you 
get away from topic.
Narendra Modi is not a upper class hindu, he is a lower class .So your so called nazism ended there.
Secondly you dont know about Hindus,In Islam some religious fanatics orderes something and rest of follows that folly.If some rational muslims in there ,rest of muslims will eliminate them call as traitors.But in India ,Hindu has freedom,so Hindus dominate in both congress and BJP.
They use wisdom.In this case who the f** want a failed state like pakistan?huhhh..
give me a reason.
IN navy modernistaion is not for you .INS vikramaditya and INS vikrant will use for some other big purpose.You guys think that whole modernization of India is for pakistan,who are you guys?even 40% of Indian Armed Forces and their assets is enough for pakistan

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## Rashid Mahmood

The indian navy never brought their carrier near the Pakistani coast and they never will, so we are not bothered. It is not a threat because they will never take the risk of bringing it close.

The main role of the PN is to safeguard the SLOC's and they will be able to do it pretty easily. The Gwadar Port and the Coastal highway has reduced this risk almost to nil.

PN has no aggressive designs to launch an offensive on the indian coast.


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## SrNair

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The indian navy never brought their carrier near the Pakistani coast and they never will, so we are not bothered. It is not a threat because they will never take the risk of bringing it close.
> 
> The main role of the PN is to safeguard the SLOC's and they will be able to do it pretty easily. The Gwadar Port and the Coastal highway has reduced this risk almost to nil.
> 
> PN has no aggressive designs to launch an offensive on the indian coast.




For using mig-29k against pakistan,INS Vikrant or Vikramaditya dont want to come close to the
pakistani coast.mig-29 range is 1240 miles.Again ACC has 500 km EW suite and protected by
destroyers and subs,It is easy to boast about so called PN ability in PDF.But in real war applications
these is not that easy .1 CBG is enough for PN.and PN also know that

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## Rashid Mahmood

sreekumar said:


> For using mig-29k against pakistan,INS Vikrant or Vikramaditya dont want to come close to the
> pakistani coast.mig-29 range is 1240 miles.Again ACC has 500 km EW suite and protected by
> destroyers and subs,It is easy to boast about so called PN ability in PDF.But in real war applications
> these is not that easy .1 CBG is enough for PN.and PN also know that




It's easy to boast IN capability on PDF. You said it yourself, in real war it ain't easy.

1240 miles is the "*Ferry Range*" and I am sure you have no idea what it means... 
The "*combat radius"* is 531 miles with AA payload, which will further reduce with AG missiles...


I have been at sea for 20 years sonny and I know how it is out there.


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## SrNair

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It's easy to boast IN capability on PDF. You said it yourself, in real war it ain't easy.
> 
> 1240 miles is the "*Ferry Range*" and I am sure you have no idea what it means...
> The "*combat radius"* is 531 miles with AA payload, which will further reduce with AG missiles...
> 
> 
> I have been at sea for 20 years sonny and I know how it is out there.




OK ,531 miles not that bad .And you forget about buddy refuelling and refuelling using tankers ..
Indians dont need to boast about the capability of IN.We know the result of 1971 war.
Its sure 1CBG is enough for pakistan navy.

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## Rashid Mahmood

sreekumar said:


> OK ,531 miles not that bad .And you forget about buddy refuelling and refuelling using tankers ..
> Indians dont need to boast about the capability of IN.We know the result of 1971 war.
> Its sure 1CBG is enough for pakistan navy.



So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
Where do you get all this weird info..... 

1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.

Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.


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## akand bharat

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
> Where do you get all this weird info.....
> 
> 1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.
> 
> Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.


Another Fan Boy


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## kaykay

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
> Where do you get all this weird info.....
> 
> 1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.
> 
> Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.


why?? Whats wrong with buddy refueling with full load?? 4 Mig-29Ks can do that to 4 other Mig-29Ks simultaneously with full load and also buddy refueling will be required for only aircrafts with full load and not aircrafts with other missions(CAP, Maritime strike). And once another CBG will be formed in next 4 years, things will be much easier for us.

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## SrNair

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
> Where do you get all this weird info.....
> 
> 1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.
> 
> Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.




What an idiot?A fighter with full load cant refuell with tankers ,then give me a reason.If you know all about refuelling technique then please enlighten me.Who want to come closer to karachi,?haha then what is the use of ACC?.
An enemy fighter within 500km of INS Vikramaditya will blind and cant know
whereabout of ships.
Oh sorry I forgot.your so called JF-17 has technology of alien spacecraft

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## Alfa-Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
> Where do you get all this weird info.....
> 
> 1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.
> 
> Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.


why to bring near karachi , our PJ-10 from gujrat border enough to wipe out pn navy, and Af bases.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Alfa-Fighter said:


> why to bring near karachi , our PJ-10 from gujrat border enough to wipe out pn navy, and Af bases.




We just need to spray pesticide and your whole west coast would perish.....


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## Shadow_Hunter

If people have read about naval blockade of 1971, it is clear that carrier can enforce that even while remaining hundreds of miles away from the harbor. All that is required is destroying any pakistani ships defending the harbor and sinking any merchant vessels supplying Karachi. Once they sink, no more ships will try to enter Karachi and the remaining PN ships will be too afraid to come out of harbor, i.e. naval blockade.

This could be done using mig 29k carrying harpoon or our Frigates carrying Klub or Brahmos.

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## Alfa-Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> We just need to spray pesticide and your whole west coast would perish.....


so why didn't you tried when your karachi was burned down?


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan can get oil from Iran anytime

I believe 2 dedicated squadrons of JF-17 each with 2xcm-400akg will be more than enough.


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## danger007

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you will air-to air re-fuel your 29's with a full weapon load coming to attack PN Ships..
> Where do you get all this weird info.....
> 
> 1971, the CBG was in the bay of Bengal with no PN presence nor PAF.
> 
> Bringing you CBG near Karachi with the present PN & PAF assets, it's altogether another ball game, and I am sure your Admiral's won't be that suicidal.




Why would we need to bring AC near to your port???lol.... think logical...IN is not stupid like you...

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## notorious_eagle

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It's easy to boast IN capability on PDF. You said it yourself, in real war it ain't easy.
> 
> 1240 miles is the "*Ferry Range*" and I am sure you have no idea what it means...
> The "*combat radius"* is 531 miles with AA payload, which will further reduce with AG missiles...
> 
> 
> I have been at sea for 20 years sonny and I know how it is out there.



The combat radius is lower than 531 miles. You are forgetting, its being launched through a ski jump and not a catapult like the F18's are launched. Thus, the MIG29 will burn most of its fuel during take off as its going up full after burner. Most likely it is going to take off with half its weight due to fuel constraints. The more realistic number for combat radius would be 250-300.


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## kaykay

notorious_eagle said:


> The combat radius is lower than 531 miles. You are forgetting, its being launched through a ski jump and not a catapult like the F18's are launched. Thus, the MIG29 will burn most of its fuel during take off as its going up full after burner. Most likely it is going to take off with half its weight due to fuel constraints. The more realistic number for combat radius would be 250-300.


WRONG!!! Its just nonsense to say that it would burn half of its fuel in 30 seconds of afterburner. And it has a combat radius of 850KM with full internal fuel(4500 KG) while from Ins Vikramaditya, it can takeoff with 5500 kg of total weight. Means 1000kg weapon with full internal fuel(4 AAMs or 2 antiship missiles). And make Internal fuel 3500 KG which would be enough for almost 600 KM combat radius and weapon load of 2000 kg (2-3 antiship missiles along with 2 long range AAMs, perfect for maritime strike)

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## Basel

PN is not buying UAVs to play they are their for purpose, and for IN CBG JF-17 is not the main threat its PNs P-3s which can do variety of missions and when all available systems are combined in a net centric environment our current assets are good enough to keep IN far away from our area of interest.

Pakistan also have these too, it can be used it for target acquisition and have long endurance as per link.

Scan Eagle > U.S. Air Force > Fact Sheet Display


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## Slayer786

sreekumar said:


> Again I told you ,use your brain or go and die.I am just answer your question ,it is you
> get away from topic.
> Narendra Modi is not a upper class hindu, he is a lower class .So your so called nazism ended there.
> Secondly you dont know about Hindus,In Islam some religious fanatics orderes something and rest of follows that folly.If some rational muslims in there ,rest of muslims will eliminate them call as traitors.But in India ,Hindu has freedom,so Hindus dominate in both congress and BJP.
> They use wisdom.In this case who the f** want a failed state like pakistan?huhhh..
> give me a reason.
> IN navy modernistaion is not for you .INS vikramaditya and INS vikrant will use for some other big purpose.You guys think that whole modernization of India is for pakistan,who are you guys?even 40% of Indian Armed Forces and their assets is enough for pakistan




Sorry I cant go off topic again. People dont like it here. We can discuss that issue in a proper thread. 

But for now lets stick to the topic please. 

India wont be able to effectively blockade Pakistani ports so easily now. As we have adequate weapons to counter it. Our submarines which will be equipped soon with Babar nuclear cruise missiles will be a nightmare for India.


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## Shadow_Hunter

notorious_eagle said:


> The combat radius is lower than 531 miles. You are forgetting, its being launched through a ski jump and not a catapult like the F18's are launched. Thus, the MIG29 will burn most of its fuel during take off as its going up full after burner. Most likely it is going to take off with half its weight due to fuel constraints. The more realistic number for combat radius would be 250-300.



The figure of 531 files is without external fuel tanks. For A2A missions, the fulcrum will always fly with fuel tanks. Secondly, that figure is for mig 29A, not mig 29k. And who told you mig 29k will burn all its fuel during take? Do you even know what is its SFC at afterburner? And it won't take off with half its weight. mig 29k is capable of taking off at mtow from from STOBAR. That was the major reason IN preferred it over Su33. more realistic number for combat radius will be much higher than 531 miles. in range of 700-800 miles.

I don't understand why do you choose to spread lies among your countrymen even after being a think tank.

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## Contrarian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The indian navy never brought their carrier near the Pakistani coast and they never will, so we are not bothered. It is not a threat because they will never take the risk of bringing it close.
> 
> The main role of the PN is to safeguard the SLOC's and they will be able to do it pretty easily. The Gwadar Port and the Coastal highway has reduced this risk almost to nil.
> 
> PN has no aggressive designs to launch an offensive on the indian coast.


Is idiocy an inherent trait?
Indian Navy can easily blockade the Pakistani ports. The PN cant do it even if their entire Navy depended on it.

Lastly Indian Navy does not need the Carrier to blockade Pakistan.
Do yourself a favour - find out
1. How a blockade is actually implemented.
2. What is the minimum assets and of what capability are required to blockade Pakistan.
3. What assets IN owns.
4. What assets it may get from sister services for support.

Talk to some senior Pakistani members for more insight into this subject.

Lastly, PN has no aggressive designs to launch an offensive on Indian coast because they are not even remotely _capable_ of launching one.
You dont say that Cuban Navy has no offensive designs on US coasts now do you. There is a reason for that.

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## notorious_eagle

Shadow_Hunter said:


> The figure of 531 files is without external fuel tanks. For A2A missions, the fulcrum will always fly with fuel tanks. Secondly, that figure is for mig 29A, not mig 29k. And who told you mig 29k will burn all its fuel during take? Do you even know what is its SFC at afterburner? And it won't take off with half its weight. mig 29k is capable of taking off at mtow from from STOBAR. That was the major reason IN preferred it over Su33. more realistic number for combat radius will be much higher than 531 miles. in range of 700-800 miles.



And how is the MIG29 going to take off with those external fuel tanks and additional weapons. Do i need to remind you for the 1000th time that the MIG29K is being launched from a Ski Jump, and not a catapult. There is only so much you do with such a small runway. The more weight you add to an aircraft, the more fuel and distance it will require to take off. Look, the lift of an aircraft is dependent on the speed and speed is dependent on acceleration. Its simply not possible for an aircraft to take off with such heavy load in such a short distance of 150m, unless the IN has a secret catapult. Physics does not support your answer, so stop making these paper claims. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> I don't understand why do you choose to spread lies among your countrymen even after being a think tank.



The question you should be asking yourself is why are you so gullible, why do you believe every B.S propaganda fed to you? 

Don't get me wrong, this is a huge achievement for India. It adds teeth to India's Force Projection, but this AC does not add much against the likes of Pakistan and China. In fact, i am more afraid of a Land Based SU30MKI swinging around the Indian Ocean and making a dash for Balochistan than a MIG29K operating from the sea.


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## danish_vij

are yaar ab suno dhyaan se....kya yaar kitne dino se ye sab latka k rakha haii

*indian navy k pass sirf CBG nahi hai 
mig 29 sirf CBG wale nai hai baki mig 29 bhi hai ar baki navy jhakk nai maregi  
btw ppl are talking about using airforce against our navy...but sir fir indian airforce ko kaun counter karega ? ganja defence shield? 
pakistani members ne apni poori navy show kr di k vo carrier uda denge...but baki indian navy k baare mein to soch lo *

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## Contrarian

notorious_eagle said:


> And how is the MIG29 going to take off with those external fuel tanks and additional weapons. Do i need to remind you for the 1000th time that the MIG29K is being launched from a Ski Jump, and not a catapult. There is only so much you do with such a small runway. The more weight you add to an aircraft, the more fuel and distance it will require to take off. Look, the lift of an aircraft is dependent on the speed and speed is dependent on acceleration. Its simply not possible for an aircraft to take off with such heavy load in such a short distance of 150m, unless the IN has a secret catapult. Physics does not support your answer, so stop making these paper claims.
> 
> 
> 
> The question you should be asking yourself is why are you so gullible, why do you believe every B.S propaganda fed to you?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, this is a huge achievement for India. It adds teeth to India's Force Projection, but this AC does not add much against the likes of Pakistan and China. In fact, i am more afraid of a Land Based SU30MKI swinging around the Indian Ocean and making a dash for Balochistan than a MIG29K operating from the sea.


You are right.
It doesnt add much against the likes of Pakistan and China in a conventional face-off.

However you of all people should know that it still has its uses against Pakistan in other ways! The mere presence of the Carrier near Pakistani Coast would mean PAF would be diverting massive resources to try and sink it. After all sinking an Indian AC would be the biggest morale booster except for probably winning a war. It would ensure a regime survival for PA/PAF Chief as well as Pakistani Govt despite losing the war.

There are multiple means of using this Carrier against Pakistan, however conventional faceoff and regular bombing on Pakistan is not possible before PAF is vastly dimished in size by IAF.

That said, to me it appears the real power of the Carrier lies not in using it but the _threat_ of using it.
It adds quite a bit to IN power projection ability and reach. Not to mention increase our stature internationally.
Secondly, it introduces IN to a _real and_ modern carrier. The Virat is not a proper carrier for modern ages - of around 22,000 tons and harriers.

Vik introduces modern fighter jets and proper carrier ops. Vikrant will be the largest military ship ever built in India. These are I think stepping stones to the Carrier that will actually make a difference in a war, one that can fight a conventional fight against the likes of PAF - the IAC 2. 65,000 tons with Cats.

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## Shadow_Hunter

notorious_eagle said:


> And how is the MIG29 going to take off with those external fuel tanks and additional weapons. Do i need to remind you for the 1000th time that the MIG29K is being launched from a Ski Jump, and not a catapult. There is only so much you do with such a small runway. The more weight you add to an aircraft, the more fuel and distance it will require to take off. Look, the lift of an aircraft is dependent on the speed and speed is dependent on acceleration. Its simply not possible for an aircraft to take off with such heavy load in such a short distance of 150m, unless the IN has a secret catapult. Physics does not support your answer, so stop making these paper claims.
> 
> 
> 
> The question you should be asking yourself is why are you so gullible, why do you believe every B.S propaganda fed to you?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, this is a huge achievement for India. It adds teeth to India's Force Projection, but this AC does not add much against the likes of Pakistan and China. In fact, i am more afraid of a Land Based SU30MKI swinging around the Indian Ocean and making a dash for Balochistan than a MIG29K operating from the sea.





notorious_eagle said:


> And how is the MIG29 going to take off with those external fuel tanks and additional weapons. Do i need to remind you for the 1000th time that the MIG29K is being launched from a Ski Jump, and not a catapult. There is only so much you do with such a small runway. The more weight you add to an aircraft, the more fuel and distance it will require to take off. Look, the lift of an aircraft is dependent on the speed and speed is dependent on acceleration. Its simply not possible for an aircraft to take off with such heavy load in such a short distance of 150m, unless the IN has a secret catapult. Physics does not support your answer, so stop making these paper claims.
> 
> 
> 
> The question you should be asking yourself is why are you so gullible, why do you believe every B.S propaganda fed to you?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, this is a huge achievement for India. It adds teeth to India's Force Projection, but this AC does not add much against the likes of Pakistan and China. In fact, i am more afraid of a Land Based SU30MKI swinging around the Indian Ocean and making a dash for Balochistan than a MIG29K operating from the sea.



This is not a paper claim. You are not well informed on mig 29k. It has substantially larger wing area than the normal mig 29. Hence it can generate higher lift even at low speeds. So it can take off at mtow from a ski jump carrier. Chinese claim even their elephant J15 can take off at mtow from the Ukrainian AC. No one questions that story. But a small mig 29k should have problems. Right. I would think a think tank will research better before making claims.

And anyways a BARCAP mission doesn't require a aircraft to take of at mtow. So this discussion is moot in any case. I just wanted highlight that the combat radius is much higher than some people have been claiming here.


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## TexasJohn

would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??


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## SirHatesALot

TexasJohn said:


> would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??


That's Indian English.


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## indiatester

TexasJohn said:


> would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??


Not worth translating. You can safely ignore it.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Contrarian said:


> You are right.
> It doesnt add much against the likes of Pakistan and China in a conventional face-off.
> 
> However you of all people should know that it still has its uses against Pakistan in other ways! The mere presence of the Carrier near Pakistani Coast would mean PAF would be diverting massive resources to try and sink it. After all sinking an Indian AC would be the biggest morale booster except for probably winning a war. It would ensure a regime survival for PA/PAF Chief as well as Pakistani Govt despite losing the war.
> 
> There are multiple means of using this Carrier against Pakistan, however conventional faceoff and regular bombing on Pakistan is not possible before PAF is vastly dimished in size by IAF.
> 
> That said, to me it appears the real power of the Carrier lies not in using it but the _threat_ of using it.
> It adds quite a bit to IN power projection ability and reach. Not to mention increase our stature internationally.
> Secondly, it introduces IN to a _real and_ modern carrier. The Virat is not a proper carrier for modern ages - of around 22,000 tons and harriers.
> 
> Vik introduces modern fighter jets and proper carrier ops. Vikrant will be the largest military ship ever built in India. These are I think stepping stones to the Carrier that will actually make a difference in a war, one that can fight a conventional fight against the likes of PAF - the IAC 2. 65,000 tons with Cats.



I disagree. Vikramaditya does provide substantial benefits in conventional face off against Pakistan. The biggest of which it simply opens a new air front at the sea and everything that comes with it. Now you have dedicate AWACS at sea as well. You have to provide air cover for your P3C Orion. You have to run CAP missions to defend against possible air strike against Karachi Harbor.

Secondly many members here seem to believe that it will be limited to carrying 16 mig29k which is simply not true. The wartime complement of a carrier is much greater than its peacetime complement. I can show you the post of a Navy Harrier pilot on another forum saying it will be able to carry 36 mig29k and 8 helis. We already have enough mig 29k to load it to whatever we want to. 
Its also provides us a tactical advantage in the sense that it provides us more options. Being an aggresive weapon. We can deploy carrier according to our choice. We might choose to surprise Pakistanis and attack Gwadar using the carrier. What it means for them? Placing sam at Gwadar as well. It is still not a strong power projection tool, but enough for any conflict in IOR.

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## Contrarian

I simply meant the limitations on the use of this Carrier as a *static floating airbase* fighting the PAF. That is sustained conventional fights for air domination.

There are multiple ways in which this carrier would be useful against Pakistan in other ways.

A USN Super carrier can on the other hand act as a static airfield running air domination campaign against a well defended adversary. The key is the size of the Carrier and the Cats.

We cant have that size , economic reasons.
What we can have are cats that increase the loadout and range of the fighters.

And the IAC-2 with Cats would be far more potent than the Vik/IAC-1 because of higher tonnage but most importantly because of cats.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Contrarian said:


> I simply meant the limitations on the use of this Carrier as a *static floating airbase* fighting the PAF. That is sustained conventional fights for air domination.
> 
> There are multiple ways in which this carrier would be useful against Pakistan in other ways.
> 
> A USN Super carrier can on the other hand act as a static airfield running air domination campaign against a well defended adversary. The key is the size of the Carrier and the Cats.
> 
> We cant have that size , economic reasons.
> What we can have are cats that increase the loadout and range of the fighters.
> 
> And the IAC-2 with Cats would be far more potent than the Vik/IAC-1 because of higher tonnage but most importantly because of cats.



As I have said before as well, mig 29k can take off at mtow from Vikramaditya. I can prove it if you want. 

USN and Indian carriers are not comparable because of size and roles. USN carriers carry 3-4 squadrons of fighters versus 1 for us. They use strike fighters against we using fighter bombers. So while US fighters do require heavy loadout fighters, we don't since a fleet defence role doesn't require us to be armed to the teeth.

With the difference in roles comes the difference in doctrine. If US were to attack Karachi, they would simply bomb it till they can find any part of it above water, and then they will move in. We, on the other hand, will attack and destroy their ships defending the harbour and pull anchor a safe distance from their airfields and establish a BARCAP, waiting for their fighters to come into the carrier's air defence zone, while we sit tight, patiently waiting as Pakistan runs out of supplies


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## Contrarian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> As I have said before as well, mig 29k can take off at mtow from Vikramaditya. I can prove it if you want.
> 
> USN and Indian carriers are not comparable because of size and roles. USN carriers carry 3-4 squadrons of fighters versus 1 for us. They use strike fighters against we using fighter bombers. So while US fighters do require heavy loadout fighters, we don't since a fleet defence role doesn't require us to be armed to the teeth.
> 
> With the difference in roles comes the difference in doctrine. If US were to attack Karachi, they would simply bomb it till they can find any part of it above water, and then they will move in. We, on the other hand, will attack and destroy their ships defending the harbour and pull anchor a safe distance from their airfields and establish a BARCAP, waiting for their fighters to come into the carrier's air defence zone, while we sit tight, patiently waiting as Pakistan runs out of supplies


Which is exactly my point. That brute force is enabled by the Carriers.

We have to move beyond providing fleet air defence with low offensive abilities using our carriers and turn them into offensive weapons able to stand against a sustained enemy AF.
We would start getting there slowly once we put cats on our Carrier.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Contrarian said:


> Which is exactly my point. That brute force is enabled by the Carriers.
> 
> We have to move beyond providing fleet air defence with low offensive abilities using our carriers and turn them into offensive weapons able to stand against a sustained enemy AF.
> We would start getting there slowly once we put cats on our Carrier.



I agree. We will get that capability with IAC-2. But I wanted to clarify it to everyone that even though Vikramaditya is smaller than USN carriers, it can perform Naval blockade of Pakistan as good as any other ship. The lesser capability can be compensated for by using a different tactic. So pakistanis who have been saying that Gorky is not a threat should wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Contrarian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I agree. We will get that capability with IAC-2. But I wanted to clarify it to everyone that even though Vikramaditya is smaller than USN carriers, it can perform Naval blockade of Pakistan as good as any other ship. The lesser capability can be compensated for by using a different tactic. So pakistanis who have been saying that Gorky is not a threat should wake up and smell the coffee.


With all of that I agree.
Then again, a Carrier is not required either to blockade Pakistan. Thats an overkill.

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## kaykay

@Shadow_Hunter How much weight Mig-29K can carry from Ins Vikramaditya including full internal fuel?? I am asking because so far i thought that It can carry only 5500KG (including full internal fuel).


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## Shadow_Hunter

kaykay said:


> @Shadow_Hunter How much weight Mig-29K can carry from Ins Vikramaditya including full internal fuel?? I am asking because so far i thought that It can carry only 5500KG (including full internal fuel).



Actually the internal fuel capacity itself is 5500 kg. The external stores capacity is around 4000 kg, bringing total capacity to 9500 kg.

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## Capt.Popeye

TexasJohn said:


> would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??


 
Please do just pass that by. Nothing much to think of.


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## kaykay

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Actually the internal fuel capacity itself is 5500 kg. The external stores capacity is around 4000 kg, bringing total capacity to 9500 kg.


Just one correction: Internal fuel capacity is 4500 KG, with combat radius on 850 KM.


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## Shadow_Hunter

kaykay said:


> Just one correction: Internal fuel capacity is 4500 KG, with combat radius on 850 KM.



I picked my figure from here

MIG-29 TECHNICAL DETAILS

which mentions total internal fuel capacity of around 6900 ltrs. there are a lot of sources with different claims. Bharat Rakshak claims something else. Anyways, one thing they agree on it total capacity including internal fuel approaches 10000 kg. Combat radius again depends upon m_i_ssion profile. It is not constant.


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## Nexus

danish_vij said:


> are yaar ab suno dhyaan se....kya yaar kitne dino se ye sab latka k rakha haii
> 
> *indian navy k pass sirf CBG nahi hai
> mig 29 sirf CBG wale nai hai baki mig 29 bhi hai ar baki navy jhakk nai maregi
> btw ppl are talking about using airforce against our navy...but sir fir indian airforce ko kaun counter karega ? ganja defence shield?
> pakistani members ne apni poori navy show kr di k vo carrier uda denge...but baki indian navy k baare mein to soch lo *


very true. i was reading this thread from starting and i saw same shit posted by other members.

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## notorious_eagle

Shadow_Hunter said:


> This is not a paper claim. You are not well informed on mig 29k. It has substantially larger wing area than the normal mig 29. Hence it can generate higher lift even at low speeds.



TWR for a clean cut MIG29:

MIG29K: 0.97
MIG29: 1.09

Physics is a real bi** isn't it 

I would need some concrete proof to believe that the MIG29K can generate a higher lift at lower speeds, considering the fact that it has a lower TWR than 1. Mind you that this TWR ratio is for a clean cut fighter, increase the weight on that plane and watch the TWR go even lower. It does appear that you are under the hallucination that Russians have created an airplane that defies the Laws of Physics. 

Check and Mate Son



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Chinese claim even their elephant J15 can take off at mtow from the Ukrainian AC. No one questions that story. But a small mig 29k should have problems.



The Chinese can claim whatever they want, how does that relate to the claims that you have made? Deflecting the attention, got ya. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> I would think a think tank will research better before making claims.



I already have researched my claims and presented my argument in-front of you. I am yet to see you reciprocate. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> I just wanted highlight that the combat radius is much higher than some people have been claiming here.



You haven't proven sh**, the only thing you have been feeding us is horse sh**. Making up lies just to make a point, you have been called out Son. Have some integrity and STOP LYING


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## Shadow_Hunter

notorious_eagle said:


> TWR for a clean cut MIG29:
> 
> MIG29K: 0.97
> MIG29: 1.09
> 
> Physics is a real bi** isn't it
> 
> I would need some concrete proof to believe that the MIG29K can generate a higher lift at lower speeds, considering the fact that it has a lower TWR than 1. Mind you that this TWR ratio is for a clean cut fighter, increase the weight on that plane and watch the TWR go even lower. It does appear that you are under the hallucination that Russians have created an airplane that defies the Laws of Physics.
> 
> Check and Mate Son



Here

Aviation EXplorer: Испытания АВ «Викрамадитья» идут хорошо

Translate this page to English from Russian. You will find a line like this:



> Now we have to start to work with the MiG-29K full load to reiterate that the aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight is able to take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier



I was showing you little respect considering your rank. But as you have clearly shown, you certainly don't deserve it and should be treated like any other troll.

You haven't researched a single f*cking thing. You were making claims of combat radius of mig 29k being 200-300 miles purely out of thin air. When I proved them BS you went to mtow, even though a BARCAP mission doesn't require take off at mtow. Now since this proof has also been provided maybe you will choose to shut up and move on with your pathetic life. Or may you will again question the veracity of proof. whatever you want to tell yourself, tell it to yourself. I already had enough of your BS.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Vinod2070 said:


> You can't sustain a war for more than a week, two at the max.



Says who ?

BOOM boom , time comes , all gloves are off

All these "assets" fancy assets become meaningless real fast

Aircraft carrier is old technology past ... it was relevant in 30's and 40's and vs opponents that don't have nuclear capabilities

These are just walking sardine cans floating on sea

They look cool if you wana attack maldives or Afganistan


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## Shadow_Hunter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Says who ?
> 
> BOOM boom , time comes , all gloves are off
> 
> All these "assets" fancy assets become meaningless real fast
> 
> Aircraft carrier is old technology past ... it was relevant in 30's and 40's and vs opponents that don't have nuclear capabilities
> 
> These are just walking sardine cans floating on sea
> 
> They look cool if you wana attack maldives or Afganistan



Don't display your ignorance so openly. Afghanistan is a land locked country.


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## Badbadman

Alphacharlie said:


> Shooting from HIP again!!.............................


would take a lot of effort to do that


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## Vinod2070

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Says who ?
> 
> BOOM boom , time comes , all gloves are off
> 
> All these "assets" fancy assets become meaningless real fast
> 
> Aircraft carrier is old technology past ... it was relevant in 30's and 40's and vs opponents that don't have nuclear capabilities
> 
> These are just walking sardine cans floating on sea
> 
> They look cool if you wana attack maldives or Afganistan



Not really.

For example, let's just say the US aircraft carriers in the Indian ocean were quite persuasive in making Musharraf and other Pakistani generals in deciding which way to go after 9/11.

Anyway, we don't really need a carrier for Pakistan. So you don't need to worry about it much.


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## notorious_eagle

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Here
> 
> Aviation EXplorer: Испытания АВ «Викрамадитья» идут хорошо
> 
> Translate this page to English from Russian. You will find a line like this:



What a wonderful source 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> I was showing you little respect considering your rank. But as you have clearly shown, you certainly don't deserve it and should be treated like any other troll.



Respect is earned, not given. I have eared my badges, you on the other hand have earned your title as the epic troll. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> You haven't researched a single f*cking thing.



You claimed that MIG29A has less power than MIG29K, i proved it wrong. Whose done research and who hasn't ? Science is a bit** isn't it. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> You were making claims of combat radius of mig 29k being 200-300 miles purely out of thin air.



I was using deductive reasoning, after all thats what we all have right now. My reasoning was based on physics, while on the other hand your reasoning was based on Shadow Hunter Logic devoid of any physics or science. In only your little world, an aircraft with TWR of less than 1 can launch with a full load of weapons with external fuel kits in less than 150m . Your knowledge of military affairs is quite amusing Sir. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> When I proved them BS



You still haven't. You are yet to prove it to me how can an aircraft with a TWR of less than 1 in a clean cut figure do all these things that you are claiming it can. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Now since this proof has also been provided maybe you will choose to shut up and *move on with your pathetic life.*



Okay now you have pushed it. One more B.S out of your mouth and your gone. Consider yourself lucky i am not moderating this post. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> I already had enough of your BS.



Your correct, no point in arguing with a child. 

Consider yourself dismissed

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## Shadow_Hunter

notorious_eagle said:


> What a wonderful source
> 
> 
> 
> Respect is earned, not given. I have eared my badges, you on the other hand have earned your title as the epic troll.
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed that MIG29A has less power than MIG29K, i proved it wrong. Whose done research and who hasn't ? Science is a bit** isn't it.
> 
> 
> 
> I was using deductive reasoning, after all thats what we all have right now. My reasoning was based on physics, while on the other hand your reasoning was based on Shadow Hunter Logic devoid of any physics or science. In only your little world, an aircraft with TWR of less than 1 can launch with a full load of weapons with external fuel kits in less than 150m . Your knowledge of military affairs is quite amusing Sir.
> 
> 
> 
> You still haven't. You are yet to prove it to me how can an aircraft with a TWR of less than 1 in a clean cut figure do all these things that you are claiming it can.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay now you have pushed it. One more B.S out of your mouth and your gone. Consider yourself lucky i am not moderating this post.
> 
> 
> 
> Your correct, no point in arguing with a child.
> 
> Consider yourself dismissed



Questioning the veracity of proof as I predicted? Obviously you hadn't got any other argument left. You asked for a source, you got it. You haven't proved anything you said till now, just blabbering like an idiot. If you want to proved me wrong, you better what have been saying till now. But then again, how can one expect a person to learn who already thinks he knows everything. Keep living in your own world. Anyways don't bother replying. I prefer talking to intelligent beings only.

As for the logic part, first google what wing loading means and how it affects take off speeds.

PS: I never claimed mig29A has lesser power than m_ig29 k_ . seems that you have started lying as well.

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## Jf Thunder

American Pakistani said:


> Yes they are threat to Pakistan but Pakistan has invested in Carrier Killers as above member too has mentioned. For now these should be a threat to india's billion$ ACC's.
> 
> But I think in future Pakistan should try getting one.


i don't think we need one, because it is like a target calling for someone to hit it, supposedly if we hit an Indian carrier it will be a HUGE LOSS for them, in contrast if loose a few missiles or a few planes while attempting to destroy a carrier it will be nothing compared to loosing a while carrier.


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## Storm Force

You will not get within 200km of a Indian Carrier group.


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## Basel

@Storm Force don't be over confident, because even US CBG is not invincible they have fear against China and they know in war nothing is invincible. Your thought look similar to makers of Titanic who claim it can not be sunk.


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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> @Storm Force don't be over confident, because even US CBG is not invincible they have fear against China and they know in war nothing is invincible. Your thought look similar to makers of Titanic who claim it can not be sunk.


yeah but pakistan is not china.....
And we know the capability of PN....
I hope you remember 1971....


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## Basel

@Janmejay its not 1971 buddy PN have learnt their lession although they are short of funds but they are doing many things which will put our adversary at bay and u don't know what kind of assets our friendly country is ready to commit in case of war with India, they are not fool to invest in Gawadar.


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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> @Janmejay its not 1971 buddy PN have learnt their lession although they are short of funds but they are doing many things which will put our adversary at bay and u don't know what kind of assets our friendly country is ready to commit in case of war with India, they are not fool to invest in Gawadar.


China didnt help you in 1965,71 or 99....
anyways if you think that then keep dreaming...
This aircraft carrier is not for pakistan,our navy is enough to counter puny PN....
PN does not have any chance against IN....


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## Basel

> China didnt help you in 1965,71 or 99....
> anyways if you think that then keep dreaming...
> This aircraft carrier is not for pakistan,our navy is enough to counter puny PN....
> PN does not have any chance against IN....



At that times China was not going to become a super power and they had their own problems, today its totally different story, China is becoming a power to recon with and they are willing to project power beyond their backyard in future. The rise of China and India in last two decades have changed many things in the region.

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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> At that times China was not going to become a super power and they had their own problems, today its totally different story, China is becoming a power to recon with and they are willing to project power beyond their backyard in future. The rise of China and India in last two decades have changed many things in the region.


China will not help you in any war becausw then they wont be able to catch with america which is there main aim....
Sino-Indo relations are improving....
We are doing buisness....
China may be willing to project there power beyond there backyard but not for pakistan...


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## Basel

> China will not help you in any war becausw then they wont be able to catch with america which is there main aim....
> Sino-Indo relations are improving....
> We are doing buisness....
> China may be willing to project there power beyond there backyard but not for pakistan...



Yes, China will not go to war with India if India attacked us but they had and will commit / provide assets to ensure that India don't get dominance in whole war.


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## kya_haal_hai

Basel said:


> At that times China was not going to become a super power and they had their own problems, today its totally different story, China is becoming a power to recon with and they are willing to project power beyond their backyard in future. The rise of China and India in last two decades have changed many things in the region.


Don't worry it is just in the case of war. 

India don't have balls to attack Pakistan first because of our over defensive foreign policies and weak leadership.

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## Shinigami

Janmejay said:


> yeah but pakistan is not china.....
> And we know the capability of PN....
> I hope you remember 1971....



you are a fool 
due to past wars, many indians like you tend to underestimate pakistan and overestimate china


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## li0nheart

nomi007 said:


> we will only use atom bomb to end the story



Then We'll use Sunny Leone (ITEM BOMB), to restart the story.

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## GURU DUTT

Shinigami said:


> you are a fool
> due to past wars, many indians like you tend to underestimate pakistan and overestimate china


well brothr we are chankayan idology followers cunning & evil yaindoos 

+what yousee always in not so simple and true as you want it to be specialli when dealingwith hindu banya indians 

as they are masters of deception and never under estimate or over estimate and thats percieslli why we survived 800 years of islamick and 100 years of britsh dominence and now with 66 years have bounced back to give your Ummah the nightmares ever wondered why 

as for dealing with pakistan we dont need CBGs for it we already have better and much much cheaper options 



Basel said:


> At that times China was not going to become a super power and they had their own problems, today its totally different story, *China is becoming a power to recon with and they are willing to project power beyond their backyard in future. The rise of China and India in last two decades have changed many things in the region.*



few things 

1. China will not fight a war with india to save pakistan ...period 

2. India is not the smae as it was in 1947, 65 or even 1999 as you experienced..they are much more agressive and in revenge mode with a very cunning and calculative owtlook to owtsmart & defeat pakistan in any adverse situation if it evr happens 

3. Pkaistan no longer enjoys its traditional levrage and trust to all those whos opinion matters now in the world to survive and many of its friends are abondaning it for india for the same cause 

4. world of today is about economy and intellect rather than muscule power or valour .... even in valour and muscle power world has seen true face of pakistan after OBL raid and slallaa anddaili drone drizzel and the usual pakistani response that follows 

so my brother its best for pakistan to make peace with india on indian terms other wise it will face the same fate as that of east timor or checkoslovakia

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## Janmejay

Shinigami said:


> you are a fool
> due to past wars, many indians like you tend to underestimate pakistan and overestimate china


lol,i thought you are an Indian.
anyways my post was not to understimate or overestimate anyone.....
I replied to him the way he replied to the thread....
You are a senior memeber and an Indian(my guess) so i am not replying you harshly like you called me a fool...


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## Basel

> few things
> 
> 1. China will not fight a war with india to save pakistan ...period
> 
> 2. India is not the smae as it was in 1947, 65 or even 1999 as you experienced..they are much more agressive and in revenge mode with a very cunning and calculative owtlook to owtsmart & defeat pakistan in any adverse situation if it evr happens
> 
> 3. Pkaistan no longer enjoys its traditional levrage and trust to all those whos opinion matters now in the world to survive and many of its friends are abondaning it for india for the same cause
> 
> 4. world of today is about economy and intellect rather than muscule power or valour .... even in valour and muscle power world has seen true face of pakistan after OBL raid and slallaa anddaili drone drizzel and the usual pakistani response that follows
> 
> so my brother its best for pakistan to make peace with india on indian terms other wise it will face the same fate as that of east timor or checkoslovakia



Pakistanis are the one who are hurting the nation by playing in others hands for self interest or miss guided, India don't have guts to fight a fair war with us although they enjoy superiority over Pakistan in conventional warfare. If your Modi become PM show guts even then Pakistan is able to hit u hard and your economy cant take that hit. 

Pakistan has nothing to lose its India who have lots at risk in case of a war with Pakistan.


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## Vinod2070

Basel said:


> Pakistanis are the one who are hurting the nation by playing in others hands for self interest or miss guided, India don't have guts to fight a fair war with us although they enjoy superiority over Pakistan in conventional warfare. If your Modi become PM show guts even then Pakistan is able to hit u hard and your economy cant take that hit.
> 
> *Pakistan has nothing to lose its India who have lots at risk in case of a war with Pakistan.*



This "pahanega kya aur nichodega kya" mindset needs to change.

It is just saying that you don't have anything so you can't lose anything.

And to keep this "advantage" you will never have anything!

This is cutting one's nose to spite the face.

And what if we don't give a damn! What if we are not interested at all?

What if we never come and all of it goes waste? What if all that paranoia was for nothing?

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## Basel

> This "pahanega kya aur nichodega kya" mindset needs to change.
> 
> It is just saying that you don't have anything so you can't lose anything.
> 
> And to keep this "advantage" you will never have anything!
> 
> This is cutting one's nose to spite the face.
> 
> And what if we don't give a damn! What if we are not interested at all?
> 
> What if we never come and all of it goes waste? What if all that paranoia was for nothing?



Its India who is doing every thing to put Pakistan with wall and think that we will not go to MAD if specific threshold is crossed, what they don't understand is that its them who are forcing Pakistan to be in this position. People in Pakistan are not extremist as many in India think, its India itself who is pushing ppl and concerned quarters of Pakistan to wall.

India is stopping our water violating water treaty, no ready to leave Siachin where both countries are uselessly killing their soldiers through mother nature and list goes on.


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## Pfpilot

I'm not sure what the relevance of such a topic has in the Indo-Pak scenario. An aircraft carrier is a tool for power projection over long distances. More than likely, the emerging IN fleet of aircraft carriers will be directed towards China. In times of heightened tensions or conflict with China, they will likely be deployed in the Pacific and/or the eastern part of the Indian ocean, in order to reach parts of mainland China that are beyond the range of IAF resources.

Deploying an aircraft carrier off the coast of Karachi, on the other hand, is likely to yield very little returns for an insane amount of risk. Operating from forward bases, IAF aircraft can easily reach any major Pakistani city, making the IN aircraft a luxury, not a requirement. Sticking an aircraft carrier within range of all Pakistani assets, whether missiles or aircraft, puts India at a disadvantage. For a nonexistent advantage, a billion dollar piece of equipment and its rather large crew could be sunk by only a few PAF assets slipping through IN defenses.

Generally speaking, wars are not fought in a vacuum and nations don't deploy assets with the reckless abandon of us, forum members.While the IN may deploy a carrier against Pakistan, it would be to provide cover for other IN assets in a naval blockade of Karachi. Even then, its effectiveness against Pakistan will always be limited; we don't exactly have a world beating navy, nor do we expect to dominate the seas. The PAF and PA will likely try to strike fast and impart enough damage over land to bring India to the table for a ceasefire, long before a blockade could do its damage. 

Then again, plans often fall apart in practice; but that applies to both Pakistan and India. Much like a successful blockade would cripple the Pakistani war effort; a sunk aircraft carrier would irreversibly damage the Indian psyche within the confines of the conflict.

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## Storm Force

Vikramditya will be deployed 400km from Krachi in a blockade scenario

The RING of steel around it will include

Su30mki land based
P8 Posedion martime
And at least 5 frigates & destroyers

I doubt you Pakistani will get even 200km from the carrier

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## Basel

Storm Force said:


> Vikramditya will be deployed 400km from Krachi in a blockade scenario
> The RING of steel around it will include
> Su30mki land based
> P8 Posedion martime
> And at least 5 frigates & destroyers
> I doubt you Pakistani will get even 200km from the carrier
> 2 minutes ago #326



If it will be diployed 400 kms from coast of Pakistan then it will be in trouble, because PN coastal defense can hit beyond 400 kms. PN even dont have to use other assets for that, but to punish IN CBG hard in your said rang PN can bring hell to your CBG with its limited resources due to its net centric capability.

PN posses this system for coastal defense but there are also other systems too.

C-602 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aforesaid system has been discussed on PDF link below:

Pakistan received 120 cruise missiles C602 from China


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## Mitro

Vikramaditya if made it close to 400km from karachi 
no matter how many frigate or destroyer protect it ,it will take couple of hit and will be out of war.
so According to you 30 MKI has nothing good to do then protect aircraft carrier.
so what about mig 29 its just for showcase.
why people forget of Awacs in pakistan posession with europian and chinese can detect and send fighter towards the Su30mki or mig29 or P8.

Carrier group is vulnerable without proper LRSAM and Barak 2 if install is still just 70km.

When Pakistan have a formidable sea denial capacity still people are stupid of thinking about Blockade.

Blockade is only posible when PAF is completely own by IAF and it never happen in past and it will never happen in future and if happen then Indian cross the thresold and nobody will be able to stop "MAD" situation.






Storm Force said:


> Vikramditya will be deployed 400km from Krachi in a blockade scenario
> 
> The RING of steel around it will include
> 
> Su30mki land based
> P8 Posedion martime
> And at least 5 frigates & destroyers
> 
> I doubt you Pakistani will get even 200km from the carrier

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## indiatester

Czar786 said:


> Vikramaditya if made it close to 400km from karachi
> no matter how many frigate or destroyer protect it ,it will take couple of hit and will be out of war.
> so According to you 30 MKI has nothing good to do then protect aircraft carrier.
> so what about mig 29 its just for showcase.
> why people forget of Awacs in pakistan posession with europian and chinese can detect and send fighter towards the Su30mki or mig29 or P8.
> 
> Carrier group is vulnerable without proper LRSAM and Barak 2 if install is still just 70km.
> 
> When Pakistan have a formidable sea denial capacity still people are stupid of thinking about Blockade.
> 
> Blockade is only posible when PAF is completely own by IAF and it never happen in past and it will never happen in future and if happen then Indian cross the thresold and nobody will be able to stop "MAD" situation.



Couple of hits won't take an AC out of war.
You are also under the assumption that the AC has to be close to the coast to enforce a blockade. An AC can enforce a distant blockade too. 
When you are talking about sea denial capacity of PN, do you know how many resources PN & PAF have to dedicate to take care of the threat posed by Vikramaditya?


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## Janmejay

Shinigami said:


> you are a fool
> due to past wars, many indians like you tend to underestimate pakistan and overestimate china





Basel said:


> If it will be diployed 400 kms from coast of Pakistan then it will be in trouble, because PN coastal defense can hit beyond 400 kms. PN even dont have to use other assets for that, but to punish IN CBG hard in your said rang PN can bring hell to your CBG with its limited resources due to its net centric capability.
> 
> PN posses this system for coastal defense but there are also other systems too.
> 
> C-602 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Aforesaid system has been discussed on PDF link below:
> 
> Pakistan received 120 cruise missiles C602 from China


I dont think cruise missiles cant hit moving targets ....
Besides that the carrier will have barak missile defence system....


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## ejaz007

indiatester said:


> Couple of hits won't take an AC out of war.
> You are also under the assumption that the AC has to be close to the coast to enforce a blockade. An AC can enforce a distant blockade too.
> When you are talking about sea denial capacity of PN, do you know how many resources PN & PAF have to dedicate to take care of the threat posed by Vikramaditya?



Couple of hits would take any aircraft carrier out of war if not sink her.

It depends where the missile hits the carrier. If carriers own resources (fuel and ammunition) com into play then believe me one has a very messy situation at his disposal.


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## indiatester

ejaz007 said:


> Couple of hits would take any aircraft carrier out of war if not sink her.
> 
> It depends where the missile hits the carrier. If carriers own resources (fuel and ammunition) com into play then believe me one has a very messy situation at his disposal.


CM-400AKG: Pakistan's supersonic carrier killer | Page 20

Has been discussed.


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## Basel

Janmejay said:


> I dont think cruise missiles cant hit moving targets ....
> Besides that the carrier will have barak missile defence system....



Basically all subsonic anti ship missiles are cruise missiles and they are very lethal, if they were not then Russia would not go to develop these and US would have not seen them more deadly then supersonic anti ship missiles and US itself have a Tomahawk missile variant in anti ship role which they consider very lethal weapon. All air defense systems can be overwhelmed and no ACC air defense system can stop all incoming anti ship missiles in a salvo of 100+ missiles, even IN CBG will find it very difficult to handle.

PN is now capable to launch salvo of 100+ missiles from coastal defense batteries alone for 400+ kms rang targets, if you combine all assets of PN and with net centric capability then IN have to think more than twice for having a blockade of Karachi or any other Pakistani port, because price of doing it will be very high for IN.


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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> Basically all subsonic anti ship missiles are cruise missiles and they are very lethal, if they were not then Russia would not go to develop these and US would have not seen them more deadly then supersonic anti ship missiles and US itself have a Tomahawk missile variant in anti ship role which they consider very lethal weapon. All air defense systems can be overwhelmed and no ACC air defense system can stop all incoming anti ship missiles in a salvo of 100+ missiles, even IN CBG will find it very difficult to handle.
> 
> PN is now capable to launch salvo of 100+ missiles from coastal defense batteries alone for 400+ kms rang targets, if you combine all assets of PN and with net centric capability then IN have to think more than twice for having a blockade of Karachi or any other Pakistani port, because price of doing it will be very high for IN.


which naval version of cruise missile pakistan has?
@GURU DUTT ,@gslv mk3 ,can pakistani cruise missiles hit moving targets?

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## Basel

@Janmejay please read post #327


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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> @Janmejay please read post #327


In addition to anti-shipping capability, the missile is also capable of land attack. The missile has a maximum range in excess of 400 kilometres (250 mi),[1] though the exact number is uncertain, but for the export version, the maximum range is reduced to 280 kilometres (170 mi) to meet the international arms trade regulation which limits the maximum range below 300 kilometres (190 mi).
so missiles maximum range is 300 kilometres

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## Basel

@Janmejay The missile is capable to go beyond 400+kms as per wiki, but I have heard that it can go upto 600 kms in anti ship role and PN have it. PN may only show below 300 kms rang version as purchased one from  and come up with a Pakistani version with range of 600 kms. 

It is purchased to keep away IN assets to launch Brahmos missile and their CBG to blockade of ports and shipping lines so u can guess what range missile PN would have gone for as they know Brahmos may be coming from 500kms range.


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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> Pakistanis are the one who are hurting the nation by playing in others hands for self interest or miss guided, India don't have guts to fight a fair war with us although they enjoy superiority over Pakistan in conventional warfare. If your Modi become PM show guts even then Pakistan is able to hit u hard and your economy cant take that hit.
> 
> Pakistan has nothing to lose its India who have lots at risk in case of a war with Pakistan.


well its was pakistan who always strted the wars and every time they used there proxies like afridies in 1948 , then there covert soldiers again disguised as proxies , then again india had to use force to stop the massacre and rapes of bengalies by your brave and superior army which surrenderred in range of 93000 after fighting just 12 odd days and then agin u used proxies in punjab and kargil and you have guts to talk about fighting like men lolzzzz

as for launching an attack on you well forget that we dont need to as what we wanted to do is already been done by your own proxies and your so called "friends not masters "

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## Janmejay

Basel said:


> @Janmejay The missile is capable to go beyond 400+kms as per wiki, but I have heard that it can go upto 600 kms in anti ship role and PN have it. PN may only show below 300 kms rang version as purchased one from  and come up with a Pakistani version with range of 600 kms.


1-China cannot export missile of range more than 300km due to MTCR
2-the AC will have barak 8 missile defence sysytem
3-the IAF will neutralize these batteries by bombing....

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## Basel

@Janmejay read my post again and try to under stand it.


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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> Its India who is doing every thing to put Pakistan with wall and think that we will not go to MAD if specific threshold is crossed, what they don't understand is that its them who are forcing Pakistan to be in this position. People in Pakistan are not extremist as many in India think, its India itself who is pushing ppl and concerned quarters of Pakistan to wall.
> 
> India is stopping our water violating water treaty, no ready to leave Siachin where both countries are uselessly killing their soldiers through mother nature and list goes on.


well if you can sponsor your so called "non state actors " to massacre and terrorize owr civilians whats wrong in taking differnt tacktiks to teach your establishment a lesson and hurt your interests where they hurt most cause pakistan onli understands the language of fear and greed not loyalty, compassion or khair jane do

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## Janmejay

@Basel ,China cannot export missile of range more than 300 km due to MTCR,what's your point?
Are you saying that pakistan will develop its own anti ship missile of range 600km?
when pakistan will deploy it then we will talk about it......


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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> @Janmejay The missile is capable to go beyond 400+kms as per wiki, but I have heard that it can go upto 600 kms in anti ship role and PN have it. PN may only show below 300 kms rang version as purchased one from  and come up with a Pakistani version with range of 600 kms.
> 
> It is purchased to keep away IN assets to launch Brahmos missile and their CBG to blockade of ports and shipping lines so u can guess what range missile PN would have gone for as they know Brahmos may be coming from 500kms range.


wel buddy thing is we dont need to send owr ACC or CBG to do naval blokade of pakistan remeber india is next door to pakistan and there are some 12 air fields in western sctor alone(forget about central indian & south indian ones) with each having a couple of squaads of one each of jags and MKIs backed by MIG 29 & M2k which can make your life reallivery difficult + there are many small attack naval ships which are fast enof and in range to engage karachi and gadawar while dont forget owr subs nd ASW cababillities which now are second onli to USN in this sector 

hope you get the picture


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## Storm Force

Nothing can compensate for the firepower destructive capability of a CBG and a aircraft carrier battle group.

Pakistanis are hoping and preying that a salvo of stationary land based missles will stop a BLOCKADE or prevent INDIAN DOMINANCE at SEA they are hoping more than expecting.

YOUR GREAT FRIENDS the chinease are not relying on the cruise missles they supply you for the PLAN they themselves LIKE INDIA realise nothing matches the flexibility & power of a carrier and LIKE INDIA are inducting Carriers.

That alone should tell you a lot

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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> Nothing can compensate for the firepower destructive capability of a CBG and a aircraft carrier battle group.
> 
> Pakistanis are hoping and preying that a salvo of stationary land based missles will stop a BLOCKADE or prevent INDIAN DOMINANCE at SEA they are hoping more than expecting.
> 
> YOUR GREAT FRIENDS the chinease are not relying on the cruise missles they supply you for the PLAN they themselves LIKE INDIA realise nothing matches the flexibility & power of a carrier and LIKE INDIA are inducting Carriers.
> 
> That alone should tell you a lot

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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> Pakistanis are the one who are hurting the nation by playing in others hands for self interest or miss guided, India don't have guts to fight a fair war with us although they enjoy superiority over Pakistan in conventional warfare. If your Modi become PM show guts even then Pakistan is able to hit u hard and your economy cant take that hit.
> 
> Pakistan has nothing to lose its India who have lots at risk in case of a war with Pakistan.


 
Wholesome and healthy logic. We don't have an economy so we don't have anything to lose, India has an economy so has lots to lose- that's why we will win. Has it ever occurred to you that what you need more than a war with India is to have an economy, do well, prosper and have a better life?

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## Mitro

If you see the post i was responding say around 400 km
Once a missile hits the carrier most of it fighting capacity is gone and its sitting duck relying on other platform.

Paf and Pn Sea denial capacity
1)Pakistan has received 120 Chinese C602 anti-ship cruise missile
400+ km / 280+ km for export .
2)280 km (CM-802AKG); 180 km (C-802A)
3)CM-400AKG anti-ship missile
4)SM39 submarine-launched
5)Am-39 Air Lauch-missile
6)AGM-84A air-launched


Coastal defence battery,Mirage,Jf-17,Agosta 90B,F-22p frigate.
P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft,Missile boats



indiatester said:


> Couple of hits won't take an AC out of war.
> You are also under the assumption that the AC has to be close to the coast to enforce a blockade. An AC can enforce a distant blockade too.
> When you are talking about sea denial capacity of PN, do you know how many resources PN & PAF have to dedicate to take care of the threat posed by Vikramaditya?

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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> If you see the post i was responding say around 400 km
> Once a missile hits the carrier most of it fighting capacity is gone and its sitting duck relying on other platform.
> Paf and Pn Sea denial capacity
> 1)Pakistan has received 120 Chinese C602 anti-ship cruise missile
> 400+ km / 280+ km for export .
> 2)280 km (CM-802AKG); 180 km (C-802A)
> 3)CM-400AKG anti-ship missile
> 4)SM39 submarine-launched
> 5)Am-39 Air Lauch-missile
> 6)AGM-84A air-launched
> Coastal defence battery,Mirage,Jf-17,Agosta 90B,F-22p frigate.
> P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft,Missile boats



This is the most sane post in response to my post here, what ppl don't understand is that PN will not fight to get control of the sea they will fight for sea denial and for that as a professional force they have purchased systems which fits their doctrine and also know what capacity IN have. What PN want is to make war so costly for IN so they don't come to blockade for Pakistani sea routes and ports, and PN have now some other more lethal assets too which are not disclosed, there were rumors that PN might have big brother with twice the range, speed and capability of so called carrier killer missile of PAF although even PAF don't call it a carrier killer but it is effective against them.

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## Mitro

*Did china care about the world when they gave pakistan the ballistic missile and nuclear technology .
Barak 8 Missile max range is 70 km 
When IAF are destroying the batteries PAF are taking vacation in K-2*




Janmejay said:


> 1-China cannot export missile of range more than 300km due to MTCR
> 2-the AC will have barak 8 missile defence sysytem
> 3-the IAF will neutralize these batteries by bombing....

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## Basel

@Czar786 well said, what u said in first line many ppl in India don't understand that China damn care about world when it comes to safeguard its interest and in Pakistan it has long term strategic interest, even some of them call Pakistan their Israel. They forgot that after May 2, 2011 how they responded to Pakistan's concerns, after that there were news that in case of hostilities with India specially they will provide any thing what is required to safeguard Pakistani borders.

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## Mitro

Yeah i know how china said if you mess with Islamabad you mess with Beijing 
they will never fight with india but they will keep india busy with pakistan and will provide anything they need.so india will be always pakistan centric not china .



Basel said:


> @Czar786 well said, what u said in first line many ppl in India don't understand that China damn care about world when it comes to safeguard its interest and in Pakistan it has long term strategic interest, even some of them call Pakistan their Israel. They forgot that after May 2, 2011 how they responded to Pakistan's concerns, after that there were news that in case of hostilities with India specially they will provide any thing what is required to safeguard Pakistani borders.

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## indiatester

Czar786 said:


> If you see the post i was responding say around 400 km
> Once a missile hits the carrier most of it fighting capacity is gone and its sitting duck relying on other platform.
> 
> Paf and Pn Sea denial capacity
> 1)Pakistan has received 120 Chinese C602 anti-ship cruise missile
> 400+ km / 280+ km for export .
> 2)280 km (CM-802AKG); 180 km (C-802A)
> 3)CM-400AKG anti-ship missile
> 4)SM39 submarine-launched
> 5)Am-39 Air Lauch-missile
> 6)AGM-84A air-launched
> 
> 
> Coastal defence battery,Mirage,Jf-17,Agosta 90B,F-22p frigate.
> P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft,Missile boats



If an AC is within 400 kms of the coast, then most possibly the resistance has been obliterated by that time. 
Again the point I disagree with is that one hit taking out most of the fighting capacity of an AC. While it is not entirely impossible, but for it to happen, the attackers must be very very lucky.
@Penguin You have explained this earlier in part, but can you please tell us generally how saturated the attack must be to take out an AC.


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## Janmejay

Czar786 said:


> *Did china care about the world when they gave pakistan the ballistic missile and nuclear technology .
> Barak 8 Missile max range is 70 km
> When IAF are destroying the batteries PAF are taking vacation in K-2*


lol,i can also say that brahmos range is more than 600km......
There is a thread named "nuclear chronology of pakistan",read it first,dont assume things.....
There will be a lot of pressure on PAF due to IAF already so PAF cant afford to......
and IAF will not be used for bombing but fighter planes of navy will be used for it....
@Basel


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## ejaz007

indiatester said:


> CM-400AKG: Pakistan's supersonic carrier killer | Page 20
> 
> Has been discussed.



And what is the outcome of that discussion.

My point is very simple one. Couple of hits would take any carrier out of war. It is not hard to understand. If IN has found a way to tackle this kind of situation then share with us.


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## Janmejay

ejaz007 said:


> And what is the outcome of that discussion.
> 
> My point is very simple one. Couple of hits would take any carrier out of war. It is not hard to understand. If IN has found a way to tackle this kind of situation then share with us.


its range is not more than 300 km due to MTCR


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## ejaz007

Janmejay said:


> its range is not more than 300 km due to MTCR




Range does not describe how lethal a weapons is.


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## Janmejay

ejaz007 said:


> Range does not describe how lethal a weapons is.


of course,but the AC will be at 500 km distance from your coastline so how you are planning to hit it by land based anti ship missiles?
even if you manage to hit it,we will repair it and deploy it again....


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## Alpha1

Janmejay said:


> of course,but the AC will be at 500 km distance from your coastline so how you are planning to hit it by land based anti ship missiles?
> *even if you manage to hit it,we will repair it and deploy it again..*..


once it is rendered useless in battle during an Indo-pak conflict by the time it gets fixed the confict will be over.
we aim to put it out of the battle atleast


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Yes, China will not go to war with India if India attacked us but they had and will commit / provide assets to ensure that India don't get dominance in whole war.




This has not happened in past. Lt us see what happens in future. So far as India is concern, we shall try to avoid the war so far as possible. If war is imposed on US like 1971 or 1999, we shall fight it out.


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## Star Wars

why do we need a carrier to blockade Pakistan anyway ? carrier wont be used anywhere in the east , there are enough IAF aircrafts..besides..... its highly possible IAF will take out the coastal defense assets before viki is used ( even if it is used )


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Pakistan is able to hit u hard and your economy cant take that hit



Are you accepting the bankruptcy of Pakistan?



Basel said:


> If it will be diployed 400 kms from coast of Pakistan then it will be in trouble, because PN coastal defense can hit beyond 400 kms. PN even dont have to use other assets for that, but to punish IN CBG hard in your said rang PN can bring hell to your CBG with its limited resources due to its net centric capability.
> 
> PN posses this system for coastal defense but there are also other systems too.
> 
> C-602 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Aforesaid system has been discussed on PDF link below:
> 
> Pakistan received 120 cruise missiles C602 from China




Not at all a threat once Barak 1 and LRSAM is deployed. Viky also can JAM it any time. Absolute no Issue.

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## Janmejay

HariPrasad said:


> Are you accepting the bankruptcy of Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all a threat once Barak 1 and LRSAM is deployed. WIKI also can JAM it any time. Absolute no Issue.


and also China cant export missiles of range more than 300km...


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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> If you see the post i was responding say around 400 km
> Once a missile hits the carrier most of it fighting capacity is gone and its sitting duck relying on other platform.
> 
> Paf and Pn Sea denial capacity
> 1)Pakistan has received 120 Chinese C602 anti-ship cruise missile
> 400+ km / 280+ km for export .
> 2)280 km (CM-802AKG); 180 km (C-802A)
> 3)CM-400AKG anti-ship missile
> 4)SM39 submarine-launched
> 5)Am-39 Air Lauch-missile
> 6)AGM-84A air-launched
> 
> 
> Coastal defence battery,Mirage,Jf-17,Agosta 90B,F-22p frigate.
> P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft,Missile boats




You see Vikramaditya have Lots and lots of electronic counter measures and blinded all russian planes in testing from a distance of over 500 KM. This small toys will never be able to lock on Vikky. All PAF airforce and missiles shall be useless once enter in 500 KM radios of Vikky.

@Basel 

Since you have thanked a post claiming that no body could stop China from giving BM to PAkistan, Now do not oppose when somebody says that Pakistani Missiles are actually something given by China.

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## Janmejay

Alpha1 said:


> once it is rendered useless in battle during an Indo-pak conflict by the time it gets fixed the confict will be over.
> we aim to put it out of the battle atleast


i am not able to find out that post where an American guy posted video and details that how it took 2 weeks for american navy to put the aircraft carrier out of battle(they tried all possible things),when they succeded the enemy repaired it and deployed it again...


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## HariPrasad

ejaz007 said:


> Range does not describe how lethal a weapons is.




China has always sold its Junk weapons to Pakistan. Whether it is plane that China herself do not deploy or outdated missile or tanks. These so called missile are of very short range than advertised and useless against moving target.


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## Basel

Janmejay said:


> lol,i can also say that brahmos range is more than 600km......
> There is a thread named "nuclear chronology of pakistan",read it first,dont assume things.....
> There will be a lot of pressure on PAF due to IAF already so PAF cant afford to......
> and IAF will not be used for bombing but fighter planes of navy will be used for it....



I don't assume things, Years back I have worked in some military department for a while and I understand things much better than you, I know how they think and trust me they don't take Indian capacity lightly, further they want system which make strategic impact even conventional ones, when your country said brahmos has 300kms, it is taken as 500kms range weapon at least. 

First time PN is now going to fight land to land fight too with their capacity to hit target deep inside India with their land assets, now PN, PAF & PA will fight a net centric war in which they will share resources, information and targets.


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## Basel

> You see Vikramaditya have Lots and lots of electronic counter measures and blinded all russian planes in testing from a distance of over 500 KM. This small toys will never be able to lock on Vikky. All PAF airforce and missiles shall be useless once enter in 500 KM radios of Vikky.
> 
> @Basel
> 
> Since you have thanked a post claiming that no body could stop China from giving BM to PAkistan, Now do not oppose when somebody says that Pakistani Missiles are actually something given by China.
> Today at 2:48 PM #363



Sorry to say are you are day dreaming man? IN is big and potent force in region but its not invincible and don't talk about Russian system as PN don't use them all major electronics comes from west and all strikes will be done in net centric environment so PN, PAF & PA know well whom they have to deal and how they have deal with it. Further PN is trained by USN in terms of net centric warfare so u can think what kind of capacity they have provided us and what we have learned with the most advance net centric fighting NAVY. They were also training PN how to handle big enemy by utilizing their resources in a net centric environment.

on the second part of your post, I have never said that they have not given us system, yes they have but it was old days story, what they do now they teach our Engineers, scientists, technicians etc. so they don't have provide any thing, we built it by our own with making them better by using knowledge learned and systems purchased from west (F-22P is good example of that) means they become new systems with better quality.

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## Mitro

bcoz we are in the missile age where your adversary has full range of Ballistic missile operational so when a conflict happen the first thing he is going to take out is your airbases and runways and command centre either by ballistic missile of cruise missile .
if your enemy can destroy your fighter aircraft in their hanger before they can take off so what will stop them to attack your aircraft carrier battle group it will be a big target your carrier battle group is not US carrier battle group.
once your AC is hit its first priority will be move away to a safe zone so that they can see the damage so even it not destroyed but will be out of action.
never underestimate your enemy always essume them more stronger then yourself so you always ready and always improving.



indiatester said:


> If an AC is within 400 kms of the coast, then most possibly the resistance has been obliterated by that time.
> Again the point I disagree with is that one hit taking out most of the fighting capacity of an AC. While it is not entirely impossible, but for it to happen, the attackers must be very very lucky.
> @Penguin You have explained this earlier in part, but can you please tell us generally how saturated the attack must be to take out an AC.



Russia never broken any treaty to help his friends but china did and history is full of example's
there will be more pressure on india then pakistan because they can hit IAF in their bases by firing Ballistic and Cruise missile .

For navy they don't need more fighter because of their small coast line .


Janmejay said:


> lol,i can also say that brahmos range is more than 600km......
> There is a thread named "nuclear chronology of pakistan",read it first,dont assume things.....
> There will be a lot of pressure on PAF due to IAF already so PAF cant afford to......
> and IAF will not be used for bombing but fighter planes of navy will be used for it....
> @Basel



Weapon manufacture always make tall claim just to sell it when they are tested in war they become dud so don't take it granted and start celebrating you already won the war.
not even american claim this super weapon in their carrier which are one of the best .



HariPrasad said:


> You see Vikramaditya have Lots and lots of electronic counter measures and blinded all russian planes in testing from a distance of over 500 KM. This small toys will never be able to lock on Vikky. All PAF airforce and missiles shall be useless once enter in 500 KM radios of Vikky.

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## Mitro

You are absolutely right now china teaches pakistan with all the new technology and share their research .on other hand india buys new latest weapons spend top dollar but no technology so their scientist are have no real time knowledge .




Basel said:


> Sorry to say are you are day dreaming man? IN is big and potent force in region but its not invincible and don't talk about Russian system as PN don't use them all major electronics comes from west and all strikes will be done in net centric environment so PN, PAF & PA know well whom they have to deal and how they have deal with it. Further PN is trained by USN in terms of net centric warfare so u can think what kind of capacity they have provided us and what we have learned with the most advance net centric fighting NAVY. They were also training PN how to handle big enemy by utilizing their resources in a net centric environment.
> 
> on the second part of your post, I have never said that they have not given us system, yes they have but it was old days story, what they do now they teach our Engineers, scientists, technicians etc. so they don't have provide any thing, we built it by our own with making them better by using knowledge learned and systems purchased from west (F-22P is good example of that) means they become new systems with better quality.


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## Basel

@Czar786 Sorry for off topic:but how u r so sane person? Its ppl like you will make difference in all departments because you don't carried away when you have good / successful time which means making less mistakes.

Nice to see ppl like you here 



Czar786 said:


> You are absolutely right now china teaches pakistan with all the new technology and share their research .on other hand india buys new latest weapons spend top dollar but no technology so their scientist are have no real time knowledge .



I have not said that India is behind, for me India is ahead due to access to tech from Isreal and other nations but China is making sure what ever you get Pakistan must be able to counter it and I love this strategy because it show how easily they make sure to keep India busy with Pakistan and keep a buffer type state in between, but I don't want war either because it will finish every thing for both countries.

The deference between India and Pakistan is that you have to spend billions to get some tech because you are co-developing with other countries too, but Pakistan can't afford it, what China did is they learn and develop main tech and teach us so we can develop it as per our requirements without spending billions.


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## Mitro

I live in real world don't get me wrong i love my country but i don't like ppl who think that they have some kind of allien technology that cannot be defeated.

about technology we can buy any latest one but nobody wants to sell us their hardwork i.e TOT when we buy their weapons they just wants us to depend on them forever.



Basel said:


> @Czar786 Sorry for off topic:but how u r so sane person? Its ppl like you will make difference in all departments because you don't carried away when you have good / successful time which means making less mistakes.
> 
> Nice to see ppl like you here
> 
> 
> 
> I have not said that India is behind, for me India is ahead due to access to tech from Isreal and other nations but China is making sure what ever you get Pakistan must be able to counter it and I love this strategy because it show how easily they make sure to keep India busy with Pakistan and keep a buffer type state in between, but I don't want war either because it will finish every thing for both countries.
> 
> The deference between India and Pakistan is that you have to spend billions to get some tech because you are co-developing with other countries too, but Pakistan can't afford it, what China did is they learn and develop main tech and teach us so we can develop it as per our requirements without spending billions.

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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> I live in real world don't get me wrong i love my country but i don't like ppl who think that they have some kind of allien technology that cannot be defeated.
> about technology we can buy any latest one but nobody wants to sell us their hardwork i.e TOT when we buy their weapons they just wants us to depend on them forever.



Still India is getting much TOT than any other country in the world and reason is China, west want to use some Asian countries against them and it will be biggest mistake if Asian countries went to war or cold war with each other to safeguard western interests. Because no one can change neighbors you have to live with happily or fighting, so living peacefully and working with each other is best solution.


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## Storm Force

COMING back to Topic.

Thank you for posting all the Pakistani countermeasures to Vikramditya coming with 400km to Gwadar & Karachi and the array of Pak Cruise missles and fighter planes like Thunders on stand by to cripple the vikramdiyta.

THE REALITY

I doubt the indians would ever deploy a $2.5 billion ship where there is a risk of attack..

In 1971 INDIANS attacked Karachi using submarines & missles corvettes. I think this time iit will be
nuclear powered subs like Akula or Arihant and air strikes from Land by SU30MKI and mirages with stand off cruise missles like brahmos or popeye turbo from israel

Unfortunately the fast moving CBG vikramditya and its support ships x 5 destroyers frigates who between them will carrying up to 100 brahmos cruise missles and over Severral hundred sams will stay well clear from Pakistan shore based assets until they are severley damaged. 

Until the ports are taken out a blockade could occur up to 800km out by the Arabian Sea or even block the sea lanes in indian ocean and harress and stop all shipping to Pakistan during war.

They great beauty of the P8 posedions from USA and the massive SU30MKI fleet india will have up to 1000km radius of air power coverage and projection over the sea lanes in indian ocean.

Remember all of this movement of CBG nuclear subs hundreds of fighters will be screened by a NETWORK of radars and satalites called AFNET

IAF's AFNET enabling network centric warfare goes live - Brahmand.com

The indian Navy has its own dedicated satalite which is linked to all its Naval Shops ASSETS.

Navy's first satellite GSAT-7 now in space - The Hindu

Do you honestly think you get near a CBG...

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## Mitro

TOT on paper just to play with public opinion .
see what happening with Rafale,scorpion subs,t-90,su30mki,ATGM
no tot just kits to assemble



Basel said:


> Still India is getting much TOT than any other country in the world and reason is China, west want to use some Asian countries against them and it will be biggest mistake if Asian countries went to war or cold war with each other to safeguard western interests. Because no one can change neighbors you have to live with happily or fighting, so living peacefully and working with each other is best solution.


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## Alpha1

Storm Force said:


> Unfortunately the fast moving CBG vikramditya and its support ships x 5 destroyers frigates who between them will carrying up to 100 brahmos cruise missles and over Severral hundred sams will stay well clear from Pakistan shore based assets until they are severley damaged.


how about exploding a NEMP above the CBG 
the whole CBG will be nothing but floting metal.
all the electronics will be fried, just speculating


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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> TOT on paper just to play with public opinion .
> see what happening with Rafale,scorpion subs,t-90,su30mki,ATGM
> no tot just kits to assemble



But India is spending billions of dollars and you spend them wisely when it comes to purchase military equipment how you are not getting TOT whereas media is reporting you are getting TOT in nearly all deals.


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## Robinhood Pandey

Basel said:


> But India is spending billions of dollars and you spend them wisely when it comes to purchase military equipment how you are not getting TOT whereas media is reporting you are getting TOT in nearly all deals.


he is a false flagger.


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## Storm Force

Before you get to Vikramditya

You have to get thru these $1 billion destroyers.

Indians very own AEGIES class warships

First one has arrived 2 more next year

and 4 more by 2019

AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

Look closel;y

They carry huge AESA radars from Israel
4 brahmos cruise missles launches each onec carrying 4 missles each

An array CIWS and SAMS systems including BARAK 8 from Israel

I repeat it wont be easy to get close to VIKY

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## Basel

What Indian don't get is that west has to sell weapons and if they sell sword to Pakistan then they sell Sheild to India to make sure that their industry keep flourishing, now India is their top client but it does not mean they will / have abandoned Pakistan totally, because they will lose influence over Pakistan.



chak de INDIA said:


> he is a false flagger.



What you mean by that?


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## Robinhood Pandey

Basel said:


> What Indian don't get is that west has to sell weapons and if they sell sword to Pakistan then they sell Sheild to India to make sure that their industry keep flourishing, now India is their top client but it does not mean they will / have abandoned Pakistan totally, because they will lose influence over Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> What you mean by that?


go through his postings history and u will understand what i mean.


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## Basel

chak de INDIA said:


> go through his postings history and u will understand what i mean.



Oh! I thought you were calling me false flagger.

What Indians don't understand is that it will be INs surface and subsurface fleet which will be cause of concern of PN not their ACC because IN can bring majority of their asset to western command and in Arabian see to out number PN, for that PN is doing whatever it can in its limited resources.


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## Mitro

COMING back to Topic.

Thank you for posting all the Pakistani countermeasures to Vikramditya coming with 400km to Gwadar & Karachi and the array of Pak Cruise missles and fighter planes like Thunders on stand by to cripple the vikramdiyta.

THE REALITY

I doubt the indians would ever deploy a $2.5 billion ship where there is a risk of attack..

In 1971 INDIANS attacked Karachi using submarines & missles corvettes. I think this time iit will be
nuclear powered subs like Akula or Arihant and air strikes from Land by SU30MKI and mirages with stand off cruise *missles like brahmos or popeye turbo from israel*
_*[Air Launch Brahmos is in drawing broad,brahmos land base just 290km and popeye turbo range is only 78 KM]*_
_*[Pakistan Have Raad with 400KM and babur with 700km operational]*_
Unfortunately the fast moving *CBG vikramditya and its support ships x 5 destroyers frigates* who between them will carrying up to *100 brahmos cruise missles* and over *Severral hundred sams* will stay well clear from Pakistan shore based assets until they are severley damaged.
*[Then it will be more easy to pick up target at sea and to strike 100 brahmos they have to come close to pakistani shore around 250km and get hit by C-602 missile batteries]*
Until the ports are taken out a blockade could occur up to 800km out by the Arabian Sea or even block the sea lanes in indian ocean and harress and stop all shipping to Pakistan during war.
*[it will be very easy for pakistan to harass indian merchant ship if they just declare war zone indian shipping insurance goes up]*
They great beauty of the P8 posedions from USA and the massive SU30MKI fleet india will have up to 1000km radius of air power coverage and projection over the sea lanes in indian ocean.
[P-3C ORION also have more then 1000km and good agosta 90b sub]
Remember all of this movement of CBG nuclear subs hundreds of fighters will be screened by a NETWORK of radars and satalites called AFNET

IAF's AFNET enabling network centric warfare goes live - Brahmand.com

The indian Navy has its own dedicated satalite which is linked to all its Naval Shops ASSETS.

Navy's first satellite GSAT-7 now in space - The Hindu

Do you honestly think you get near a CBG...
i honestly think they can disable your carrier


Basel said:


> But India is spending billions of dollars and you spend them wisely when it comes to purchase military equipment how you are not getting TOT whereas media is reporting you are getting TOT in nearly all deals.


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## Storm Force

Please Indian or Pakistani tell me the last carrier that got disabled....


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## Mitro

Barak 8 max range is 70km and Jf-17 can fire C-802A from 100km and here goes your $1 Billion destroy in Ashes .
Aesa Radar can detect the Jf-17 can't do sh$$ .

to protect this destroyer you have put lots of Su30mki or mig29 round the clock 

2019 will become 2029 thats indian standard .



Storm Force said:


> Before you get to Vikramditya
> 
> You have to get thru these $1 billion destroyers.
> 
> Indians very own AEGIES class warships
> 
> First one has arrived 2 more next year
> 
> and 4 more by 2019
> 
> AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE
> 
> Look closel;y
> 
> They carry huge AESA radars from Israel
> 4 brahmos cruise missles launches each onec carrying 4 missles each
> 
> An array CIWS and SAMS systems including BARAK 8 from Israel
> 
> I repeat it wont be easy to get close to VIKY

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## illusion8

Czar786 said:


> i honestly think they can disable your carrier



You honestly think so? - we are building more acc's so that you can honestly think harder.

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## Storm Force

P3 orions will last s few minutes infront. Of mig29k or Su30mki umbrella. Regarding haressing Indian ships no chance the paknavy iis to small to confront India on the open seas would be suicide for them


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## illusion8

Czar786 said:


> Barak 8 max range is 70km and Jf-17 can fire C-802A from 100km and here goes your $1 Billion destroy in Ashes .
> Aesa Radar can detect the Jf-17 can't do sh$$ .
> 
> to protect this destroyer you have put lots of Su30mki or mig29 round the clock
> 
> 2019 will become 2029 thats indian standard .



Yes of course a single JF17 can take out a whole CBG.

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## Mitro

yeah right in 2050 when there no need for it 


illusion8 said:


> You honestly think so? - we are building more acc's so that you can honestly think harder.


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## illusion8

Czar786 said:


> yeah right in 2050 when there no need for it




why what's happening by 2050? gazwa E Hind? dajjal? qayamat? why would'nt India require acc's by 2050?

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## Mitro

There no need for PN to go to open seas when they just have keep their life line open .
And P8i with fight AoA with F16 and Jf-17 good luck


bcoz things move very slow in india so what ever they plan for 2015 will happen in 2025 [remember tejas]
Isro come in my dream and told me that allien are going to take over earth.


illusion8 said:


> why what's happening by 2050? gazwa E Hind? dajjal? qayamat? why would'nt India require acc's by 2050?


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Sorry to say are you are day dreaming man? IN is big and potent force in region but its not invincible and don't talk about Russian system as PN don't use them all major electronics comes from west and all strikes will be done in net centric environment so PN, PAF & PA know well whom they have to deal and how they have deal with it. Further PN is trained by USN in terms of net centric warfare so u can think what kind of capacity they have provided us and what we have learned with the most advance net centric fighting NAVY. They were also training PN how to handle big enemy by utilizing their resources in a net centric environment.
> 
> on the second part of your post, I have never said that they have not given us system, yes they have but it was old days story, what they do now they teach our Engineers, scientists, technicians etc. so they don't have provide any thing, we built it by our own with making them better by using knowledge learned and systems purchased from west (F-22P is good example of that) means they become new systems with better quality.




Thanks that you accepted that IN is big and potent force in region. How ever whether it is invincible or not is dependent on with whom we are fighting. It is certainly invincible for PN. Your problem is that when you think that you are getting stuff from west and you have scientist, you forget that we have access to much advance technology world wide including US, France, Russia, Israel the major power. You have access to none.

So far as indiginization in concern we are much much ahead of you. We have achieved some of the best systems on our own and on the threshold of building many.

_I do not _deny that Pakistan is progressing but we are progressing at a much faster rate. Gap is widening more and more. In fact we have stopped considering Pakistan a threat (Except in Nuclear war). Currently we have reached in a position where we can produce batter indigenous stuff compared to your imported stuff. There is a lots of asymmetry in power equation that you should consider.



Czar786 said:


> bcoz we are in the missile age where your adversary has full range of Ballistic missile operational so when a conflict happen the first thing he is going to take out is your airbases and runways and command centre either by ballistic missile of cruise missile .
> if your enemy can destroy your fighter aircraft in their hanger before they can take off so what will stop them to attack your aircraft carrier battle group it will be a big target your carrier battle group is not US carrier battle group.
> once your AC is hit its first priority will be move away to a safe zone so that they can see the damage so even it not destroyed but will be out of action.
> never underestimate your enemy always essume them more stronger then yourself so you always ready and always improving.




But that requires very high accuracy missile like Iskander, Shaurya, Prahar etc. Air base are highly protected. Plane are not kept at airbase in war time.

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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> Weapon manufacture always make tall claim just to sell it when they are tested in war they become dud so don't take it granted and start celebrating you already won the war.
> not even american claim this super weapon in their carrier which are one of the best .





If you have any doubt about Russian weapon, ask Israel and Us why they shy away from attacking Iran and Syria. 



Czar786 said:


> TOT on paper just to play with public opinion .
> see what happening with Rafale,scorpion subs,t-90,su30mki,ATGM
> no tot just kits to assemble




Absolutely wrong. Except metallurgy and Gun, everything is made in India. We prepare Su 30 MKI engines here from mattles supplied by russia. etc., etc..



Basel said:


> Oh! I thought you were calling me false flagger.
> What Indians don't understand is that it will be INs surface and subsurface fleet which will be cause of concern of PN not their ACC because IN can bring majority of their asset to western command and in Arabian see to out number PN, for that PN is doing whatever it can in its limited resources.




My free advise to your country. Buy subsurface vessel (Subs) and don't spend money on surface ships. It is totally useless against India. Past war has proved that.



Czar786 said:


> [Air Launch Brahmos is in drawing broad,brahmos land base just 290km and popeye turbo range is only 78 KM]
> [Pakistan Have Raad with 400KM and babur with 700km operational]




Brahmos have over 500 Km range and babur is a surface to surface missile and not antiship missile.

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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> Barak 8 max range is 70km and Jf-17 can fire C-802A from 100km and here goes your $1 Billion destroy in Ashes




MRSAM with booster has 110 KM range.



Storm Force said:


> P3 orions will last s few minutes infront. Of mig29k or Su30mki umbrella. Regarding haressing Indian ships no chance the paknavy iis to small to confront India on the open seas would be suicide for them




PC 3 orion shall be useless in war as Su 30 MKI shall be carrying K100 missile, A missile with 400 KMs of range.



Czar786 said:


> There no need for PN to go to open seas when they just have keep their life line open .
> And P8i with fight AoA with F16 and Jf-17 good luck




PN can not save itself in Pakistan water forget about fighting in open sea. We shall be having full information of all PN surface vessel and we have pinpoint missile to strike them right in pakistan port where they are stationed.

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## illusion8

Czar786 said:


> There no need for PN to go to open seas when they just have keep their life line open .
> And P8i with fight AoA with F16 and Jf-17 good luck
> 
> 
> bcoz things move very slow in india so what ever they plan for 2015 will happen in 2025 [remember tejas]
> Isro come in my dream and told me that allien are going to take over earth.



And, you believe in dreams - that's so obvious that you do.

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## GURU DUTT

Czar786 said:


> Barak 8 max range is 70km and Jf-17 can fire C-802A from 100km and here goes your $1 Billion destroy in Ashes .
> Aesa Radar can detect the Jf-17 can't do sh$$ .
> 
> to protect this destroyer you have put lots of Su30mki or mig29 round the clock
> 
> 2019 will become 2029 thats indian standard .


lolzz wise guy first thing For your JF17s or F16s or missage IIIs to reach within missile launching range od there C-802 or Harpoons they nead get at least 100 Miles of the CBG but the thing is that that Indian CBG has multiple layered(PESA/ASEA) and multi Band radar shield that extends way beyond 400 KMs and have a dedicated AA- LR, MR&SR missile in dozens + a dedicated air wing of MIG 29Ks for Air defence only (they have a fighting radius of 850 Km withowt external feul tanks) & not to mention around 6-9 K 31 helix as AWACS

so tell me how wil you avoid them first cause air defence radars are allways on 24X7 so are the AA batteries complemented by multiple CIWSs (ifever things come to that)

and dont forget thet you wil already be hounded & hunted by the land based (again multi layered and multi band radars) backed by squads of Jags , MKIs , M2Ks & MIG29s 

just tell me how will you dodge them to have a go at the ACC which again will have 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers & 3-4 frigates which again have all those multi layered radars & SA batteries 

please sir kindly do give us your devine wisdom on that Thanks



Czar786 said:


> THE REALITY
> 
> I doubt the indians would ever deploy a $2.5 billion ship where there is a risk of attack..


 Thats the curx of the matter and the point i was trying to tell pakistani members that why will india send its flagship CBG to block pakistani ports when the same result can easli be achieved by very small and fast attack boats(which are staelthy and carry multiple ASMs) , indian Subs & land based deep strike fighter /bomber aircrafts which is way much cheaper and risk free + is very potent and leathel option ...."why use a sledge hammer for a Job of a pocket knife "

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## ejaz007

HariPrasad said:


> China has always sold its Junk weapons to Pakistan. Whether it is plane that China herself do not deploy or outdated missile or tanks. These so called missile are of very short range than advertised and useless against moving target.




Yet this junk does not fall from sky on regular basis unlike our neighbors. Wonder what is keeping this junk flying.

If range is the key to determine the quality then how would you rate your brahmose.


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## GURU DUTT

ejaz007 said:


> Yet this junk does not fall from sky on regular basis unlike our neighbors. Wonder what is keeping this junk flying.
> 
> If range is the key to determine the quality then how would you rate your brahmose.


well brother about the junk falling from the skies could you please tell us how many air crashes did PAF had to suffer in last one year onli 

now about bhramos brother thing is all indian surface ships (cruisers, frigates, destroyers) have bhramos by now and subs are in process of upgradation for the same + the biggest thing is the "officialli disclosed" range is 290Kms and that is enof to attck and cripple all your assets judging by the diference in distance between the target and launch sites vice-versa india -pak theater and every MKI as of now is capable of carrying at least one bhramos so i guess its pretty enof for you ,,...whats your take on that sir ..Thanks in advance



Czar786 said:


> There no need for PN to go to open seas when they just have keep their life line open .
> And P8i with fight AoA with F16 and Jf-17 good luck
> 
> 
> bcoz things move very slow in india so what ever they plan for 2015 will happen in 2025 [remember tejas]
> Isro come in my dream and told me that allien are going to take over earth.


well the thing is P8is wont fight your F16s & JF 17s but MKIs, M2Ks& MIG29s will who knows rafale& FGFA too some day and the catch is all of them have enof range + the distance betwwen there targets and air bases (from where they will fly off ) is not that great if you look at the geography of the indian sub continent and location of owr air bases 

and as for when will there be such a situation ...god forbidd if it ever happens but dear even today your in no postion to be adventurous with us forget about future cause looking at your current state and your econmy and in which direction it is going i think we dont have to worry mutch owr work is already being done by your own "strategick assets " & "friends not masters"

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## Mitro

You are funny Shaurya,prahar is not operation 



HariPrasad said:


> But that requires very high accuracy missile like Iskander, Shaurya, Prahar etc. Air base are highly protected. Plane are not kept at airbase in war time.



*Yeah you are right they just got allien technology to make aircraft carrier invisible *



HariPrasad said:


> If you have any doubt about Russian weapon, ask Israel and Us why they shy away from attacking Iran and Syria.
> 
> 
> *Hahaha funny are you 12 years old india cannot repair the engine they have to send it to russia to fix it.*
> 
> Absolutely wrong. Except metallurgy and Gun, everything is made in India. We prepare Su 30 MKI engines here from mattles supplied by russia. etc., etc..
> 
> 
> *I think Brahmos is first intercontinental cruise missile with 10000 km range with multiple war heads*
> 
> 
> Brahmos have over 500 Km range and babur is a surface to surface missile and not antiship missile.


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> You are funny Shaurya,prahar is not operation
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeah you are right they just got allien technology to make aircraft carrier invisible *




Prahar is operational and its variants are ready for export.

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## Mitro

*First worry about LRsam that is 70 KM *


HariPrasad said:


> MRSAM with booster has 110 KM range.
> 
> *
> same think with P8I *
> 
> PC 3 orion shall be useless in war as Su 30 MKI shall be carrying K100 missile, A missile with 400 KMs of range.
> 
> 
> *so the war is over you won now go to sleep and celebrate in your dream*
> 
> PN can not save itself in Pakistan water forget about fighting in open sea. We shall be having full information of all PN surface vessel and we have pinpoint missile to strike them right in pakistan port where they are stationed.



I am sorry with prahaar but with only 150km range can not do Sh$$


Srinivas said:


> Prahar is operational and its variants are ready for export.


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> *First worry about LRsam that is 70 KM *
> 
> 
> I am sorry with prahaar but with only 150km range can not do Sh$$



It is also getting ready and the installation process is going on ......


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## Mitro

Yeah i am always in LALALAND dreaming 


illusion8 said:


> And, you believe in dreams - that's so obvious that you do.


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> *First worry about LRsam that is 70 KM *
> I am sorry with prahaar but with only 150km range can not do Sh$$



Dude ...... !!!!

Prahar is a quick reaction missile (solid propellant). This missile is designed to bridge the gap between Prithvi and Pinaka. Used for ground targets.

Prahar has very good accuracy.

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## Mitro

Israhell got this system in august 2013 so you can imagine when india will get and be operational.



Srinivas said:


> It is also getting ready and the installation process is going on ......


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> Israhell got this system in august 2013 so you can imagine when india will get and be operational.



Installation process has started and it is being fitted on to the Battle ships.


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## Mitro

A-100 multi-rocket launch systems will do more damage then this missile and with more range then this missile .



Srinivas said:


> Dude ...... !!!!
> 
> Prahar is a quick reaction missile (solid propellant). This missile is designed to bridge the gap between Prithvi and Pinaka. Used for ground targets.
> 
> Prahar has very good accuracy.



Any link will help me change my opinion.


Srinivas said:


> Installation process has started and it is being fitted on to the Battle ships.


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> A-100 multi-rocket launch systems will do more damage then this missile and with more range then this missile .



A-100 is just a guided rocket, which is of 100 km range and it is not known whether it can carry nuclear war head or not.

Prahaar on the other hand has 150 Km range and is highly accurate and can carry nuclear war head.

There is no comparison between a guided rocket and a missile.

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## Mitro

*When ever PAF will decide to take on Carrier battle group their will be multiple weapon on different platform using their Awacs system which will easily track then from 350 to 400 km away and direct them to their target with out using their radar so their RCS will be minimum and can also use AWACS data on F-16 AMraam with out using f-16 radar to guide them in mid course then switching their own radar to target Mig29.

F-16 job will be to take care of Mig29 which is carrier base fighter .
J717 will take care of mig29 and will deliver C802 cruise missile.
Mirage will be only for attacking carrier battle group.*

*and i am not talking about naval platforms like F22p and sub.*



GURU DUTT said:


> lolzz wise guy first thing For your JF17s or F16s or missage IIIs to reach within missile launching range od there C-802 or Harpoons they nead get at least 100 Miles of the CBG but the thing is that that Indian CBG has multiple layered(PESA/ASEA) and multi Band radar shield that extends way beyond 400 KMs and have a dedicated AA- LR, MR&SR missile in dozens + a dedicated air wing of MIG 29Ks for Air defence only (they have a fighting radius of 850 Km withowt external feul tanks) & not to mention around 6-9 K 31 helix as AWACS
> 
> so tell me how wil you avoid them first cause air defence radars are allways on 24X7 so are the AA batteries complemented by multiple CIWSs (ifever things come to that)
> 
> *Land base fighter will be busy saving the A$$ and targeting pakistani bases.
> 
> *
> and dont forget thet you wil already be hounded & hunted by the land based (again multi layered and multi band radars) backed by squads of Jags , MKIs , M2Ks & MIG29s
> 
> *bigger battle group more to choose from to attack.*
> 
> just tell me how will you dodge them to have a go at the ACC which again will have 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers & 3-4 frigates which again have all those multi layered radars & SA batteries
> 
> please sir kindly do give us your devine wisdom on that Thanks
> 
> India will never use CBG because of losing them in the battle and that will be *psychological disaster
> and keep on dreaming about blockage
> *
> Thats the curx of the matter and the point i was trying to tell pakistani members that why will india send its flagship CBG to block pakistani ports when the same result can easli be achieved by very small and fast attack boats(which are staelthy and carry multiple ASMs) , indian Subs & land based deep strike fighter /bomber aircrafts which is way much cheaper and risk free + is very potent and leathel option ...."why use a sledge hammer for a Job of a pocket knife "


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## Srinivas

Czar786 said:


> A-100 multi-rocket launch systems will do more damage then this missile and with more range then this missile .
> 
> 
> 
> Any link will help me change my opinion.




Here is the link Dude ....... Now change your opinion accordingly 

Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests


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## acid rain

Czar786 said:


> *When ever PAF will decide to take on Carrier battle group their will be multiple weapon on different platform using their Awacs system which will easily track then from 350 to 400 km away and direct them to their target with out using their radar so their RCS will be minimum and can also use AWACS data on F-16 AMraam with out using f-16 radar to guide them in mid course then switching their own radar to target Mig29.
> 
> F-16 job will be to take care of Mig29 which is carrier base fighter .
> J717 will take care of mig29 and will deliver C802 cruise missile.
> Mirage will be only for attacking carrier battle group.*
> 
> *and i am not talking about naval platforms like F22p and sub.*



LOL, that was a fun read - no wonder you live in lalaland - by your own admission.

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## Basel

Storm Force said:


> P3 orions will last s few minutes infront. Of mig29k or Su30mki umbrella. Regarding haressing Indian ships no chance the paknavy iis to small to confront India on the open seas would be suicide for them



P3C Orions can hit targets from standoff ranges, they will never comes in range of your MIG-29Ks and CBG air defense and they will be the big headache of IN in case of hostilities because they are very versatile and potent systems.

@Czar786 Pakistani Mirages carry H4 standoff system which is now being further developed to hit moving targets with multiple seekers on board so you can guess what kind of targets they will be used, ships are big and easy to hit then moving tanks.

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## Capt.Popeye

Srinivas said:


> A-100 is just a guided rocket, which is of 100 km range and it is not known whether it can carry nuclear war head or not.
> 
> Prahaar on the other hand has 150 Km range and is highly accurate and can carry nuclear war head.
> 
> There is no comparison between a guided rocket and a missile.


 
LOLLL; you are talking to a guy who "_does not know the difference between a Mortar and a Motor; a Gorilla and a Guerilla";_ to recall the immortal words of Sam Bahadur.............


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> Thanks that you accepted that IN is big and potent force in region. How ever whether it is invincible or not is dependent on with whom we are fighting. It is certainly invincible for PN. Your problem is that when you think that you are getting stuff from west and you have scientist, you forget that we have access to much advance technology world wide including US, France, Russia, Israel the major power. You have access to none.
> So far as indiginization in concern we are much much ahead of you. We have achieved some of the best systems on our own and on the threshold of building many.
> I do not deny that Pakistan is progressing but we are progressing at a much faster rate. Gap is widening more and more. In fact we have stopped considering Pakistan a threat (Except in Nuclear war). Currently we have reached in a position where we can produce batter indigenous stuff compared to your imported stuff. There is a lots of asymmetry in power equation that you should consider.



I think you have not read my previous posts, if you read them you will understand how and why Pakistan is capable to defend its ports and sea lines, air space and land. What will be very difficult for Pakistan is to strike targets in India, for that drones and standoff weapons will play major role.


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## Penguin

Ok guys, you've had your fun. Done with the pissing contests.Naval topics only please.

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## illusion8

Czar786 said:


> Yeah i am always in LALALAND dreaming




That's the best place for you - i recommend you stay there forever.


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> My free advise to your country. Buy subsurface vessel (Subs) and don't spend money on surface ships. It is totally useless against India. Past war has proved that.



Don't worry PN understand much better than you and PN always put more importance to subsurface fleet than surface ones, we always had more modern submarines than ships, hope if funds were not stopped than we may see very advance nuclear submarine of western standards in PN fleet soon.



Penguin said:


> Ok guys, you've had your fun. Done with the pissing contests.Naval topics only please.



Penguin please provide an brief analysis of capabilities of PN & IN and how both can perform in hostilities against each other, you have good knowledge of Naval warfare.


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## Mitro

For high value target cruise missile is the best and cheaper too like Raad 450km and Babur 750km range the Prahaar is just 150 km is too small range to be very effective or target high value target.

Pakistan Uses ar1a MLrv with A number of warheads are available for this system, including *HE-FRAG, fuel-air explosive, cargo, with anti-tank or anti-personnel submunitions. A standard HE-FRAG warhead weights about 200 kg*. Maximum range of fire is up to *130 km*. Minimum range is 20 km. Rockets are fitted with a range and direction correction system for improved accuracy.




Srinivas said:


> A-100 is just a guided rocket, which is of 100 km range and it is not known whether it can carry nuclear war head or not.
> 
> Prahaar on the other hand has 150 Km range and is highly accurate and can carry nuclear war head.
> 
> There is no comparison between a guided rocket and a missile.



http://***************** 



Srinivas said:


> Here is the link Dude ....... Now change your opinion accordingly
> 
> Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests





illusion8 said:


> That's the best place for you - i recommend you stay there forever.



Thats where i Am 


illusion8 said:


> That's the best place for you - i recommend you stay there forever.


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## Mitro

acid rain said:


> LOL, that was a fun read - no wonder you live in lalaland - by your own admission.



*Prahaar is not Operational lol *
India's Prahaar missile to be tested by DRDO - IHS Jane's 360



Srinivas said:


> Dude ...... !!!!
> 
> Prahar is a quick reaction missile (solid propellant). This missile is designed to bridge the gap between Prithvi and Pinaka. Used for ground targets.
> 
> Prahar has very good accuracy.


----------



## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Don't worry PN understand much better than you and PN always put more importance to subsurface fleet than surface ones, we always had more modern submarines than ships, hope if funds were not stopped than we may see very advance nuclear submarine of western standards in PN fleet soon.



That is my opinion. I see you are agree on that.

Forget about Nuclear Sub with western standard. Even china do not have it. Only we have that sub (Nepra). At the most Pakistan can get a nuke sub of dated (Even by chinese standard) technology.



Czar786 said:


> For high value target cruise missile is the best and cheaper too like Raad 450km and Babur 750km range the Prahaar is just 150 km is too small range to be very effective or target high value target.




Why do you forget Hypersonic Shaurya?



Basel said:


> I think you have not read my previous posts, if you read them you will understand how and why Pakistan is capable to defend its ports and sea lines, air space and land. What will be very difficult for Pakistan is to strike targets in India, for that drones and standoff weapons will play major role.



Tell me how would you counter Brahmos?



Czar786 said:


> When ever PAF will decide to take on Carrier battle group their will be multiple weapon on different platform using their Awacs system which will easily track then from 350 to 400 km away and direct them to their target with out using their radar so their RCS will be minimum and can also use AWACS data on F-16 AMraam with out using f-16 radar to guide them in mid course then switching their own radar to target Mig29.



First of all they are AWE &C not AWACS. We have K 100 AWACS killer. Which can target AWACS from 400 KM. We are developing SAM of 300 KM range.

Even though your AWA& C Direct BABUR And RAAD (Actually it is nonsense as they are Surface to surface and Air to surface missile.) to Viky, we have sufficient counter measure in form of EW suit, Multi fire Gun etc. Barak 8 will come shortly as well as Matri.

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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> Prahaar is not Operational lol
> India's Prahaar missile to be tested by DRDO - IHS Jane's 360




Forget about operationalization, we have offered it for sell in international market.


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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> I am sorry with prahaar but with only 150km range can not do Sh$$




But Prahar can hit lots and lots of Pakistani Stratagic assets in its limited range of 150 KM with a deadly accuracy of 2 m CEP. You forgot Prithvi and Agni Series.



Czar786 said:


> You are funny Shaurya,prahar is not operation




You are making fun of yourself on forum.



Czar786 said:


> so the war is over you won now go to sleep and celebrate in your dream




So far as Pakistan is concern we are sleeping with peace in mind without and any tension. We are worried about China only.

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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> Yeah you are right they just got allien technology to make aircraft carrier invisible




It is not less than alien technology for technologically backward country.



Czar786 said:


> Hahaha funny are you 12 years old india cannot repair the engine they have to send it to russia to fix it.




More nonsense than what your usual crap writing.



Czar786 said:


> I think Brahmos is first intercontinental cruise missile with 10000 km range with multiple war heads



No dear, it is 290 KM range Mach 3 cruise missile.


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## Storm Force

Czar 786 sounds desperate.

Somebody ask this fella how many nuke subs Pakistan building or how many destroyers and frigates they building. Ask him what Pakistan can do with a tiny forex of 8 billion versus 300 billion for poor India. Does this Pakistani understand theddirect correlation on no GDP = no military capability.. cruise missles from China will do zilch in the end.

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## GURU DUTT

Czar786 said:


> *When ever PAF will decide to take on Carrier battle group their will be multiple weapon on different platform using their Awacs system which will easily track then from 350 to 400 km away and direct them to their target with out using their radar so their RCS will be minimum and can also use AWACS data on F-16 AMraam with out using f-16 radar to guide them in mid course then switching their own radar to target Mig29.
> 
> F-16 job will be to take care of Mig29 which is carrier base fighter .
> J717 will take care of mig29 and will deliver C802 cruise missile.
> Mirage will be only for attacking carrier battle group.*
> 
> *and i am not talking about naval platforms like F22p and sub.*


well bhai thing is qwality and numbers and on those two parameters alone you are in no pstion to challenege india your onli hope is ...iff...iff i mean chinese come to your rescue but the thing is chinese will go to war onli when they want to they will never go to war to save pakistan cause if they do that it gives USA, Japan, S korea , Vietnam & Taiwan to fully and openli support india cause "an enemy of your enemy is your friend" but the thing is we are already going great guns and dont need anybodies help but in wartime that shal be apreciated and will not be forgotten but tell me which ummah nation will come to your rescue 'iff' ever theres a indo - pak war 

now as for your AWACS well buddy i think you have no idea about them go and ask any PAF official and he will tell you why sending land based AWACS to open seas is a bad tactical move ..... well the thing is AWACS needs at least 2-4 Fighter aircrafts to escort it even if its in your own air space while CBGs ...read Indian CBGs have there own multiple heli based AWACs (K31 helix) now go and google it even USN uses E2D on its super carriers ever wondered why 

as for there range wll by the thing is india already has Novotar K-100 very long range BVR missiles and each Mig 29K will carry at least one apart from 2 WVRs & 2 BVRs 

one more thing pakistan is next door to india and during war time owr multiple & multi band PESA/ASEA/2D-3D-4D land based and aerostat radars will be scanning , tracking and annaylising all your movements cause most of them have 400 Km+ range which again will be backed by 5 phalcon AWACS + equal Number(if not more) of Indian made AWACS all of whome while remaining at least 50 Km inside indian air space can scan,track as far as hindukush mountain ranges & will alert all indian offensive & defensive assets simontainousli which in return will alert indian navy, indian air force and CBGs which will do the needfull to stop and blunt your attck well before they could even reach in a striking postion 

as for satnd off wepons do you have any idea what stand off wepons we have

please il ask you my intellegent sir google it and do some research

the main thing is indian navy will never send CBG for blocking your sea lanes as i told before its not worth risking CBG to do naval blockade of a country like pakistan

as for your super dupar F 16s well bhai that will be your biggest tactical mistake if ever you send them to do naval job as thanks to friends like israelies & singaporeans we now have quite a bit of inside knowledge of your primarry platform 

you donthave to worry onli carrier based Mig29Ks as all your air bases are not more than 150 kilometers from the indo pak border and there we have at least 
100 MKIs +60 each of upgraded MIG 29s & M2Ks + 150 MIG 21 Bisons(all carry BVRs)
backed by 150 jags for strike role

lolzzz even USA dosent uses F16s for naval jobs...you will need something like F18 or typhoon to do that job deu to range

so bhai ji thing is CBGs are not for naval blockade job tell me how will you attack us when nor do you have numbers niether the quwality 

but then good luck cause you will need it more than us

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## Janmejay

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai thing is qwality and numbers and on those two parameters alone you are in no pstion to challenege india your onli hope is ...iff...iff i mean chinese come to your rescue but the thing is chinese will go to war onli when they want to they will never go to war to save pakistan cause if they do that it gives USA, Japan, S korea , Vietnam & Taiwan to fully and openli support india cause "an enemy of your enemy is your friend" but the thing is we are already going great guns and dont need anybodies help but in wartime that shal be apreciated and will not be forgotten but tell me which ummah nation will come to your rescue 'iff' ever theres a indo - pak war
> 
> now as for your AWACS well buddy i think you have no idea about them go and ask any PAF official and he will tell you why sending land based AWACS to open seas is a bad tactical move ..... well the thing is AWACS needs at least 2-4 Fighter aircrafts to escort it even if its in your own air space while CBGs ...read Indian CBGs have there own multiple heli based AWACs (K31 helix) now go and google it even USN uses E2D on its super carriers ever wondered why
> 
> as for there range wll by the thing is india already has Novotar K-100 very long range BVR missiles and each Mig 29K will carry at least one apart from 2 WVRs & 2 BVRs
> 
> one more thing pakistan is next door to india and during war time owr multiple & multi band PESA/ASEA/2D-3D-4D land based and aerostat radars will be scanning , tracking and annaylising all your movements cause most of them have 400 Km+ range which again will be backed by 5 phalcon AWACS + equal Number(if not more) of Indian made AWACS all of whome while remaining at least 50 Km inside indian air space can scan,track as far as hindukush mountain ranges & will alert all indian offensive & defensive assets simontainousli which in return will alert indian navy, indian air force and CBGs which will do the needfull to stop and blunt your attck well before they could even reach in a striking postion
> 
> as for satnd off wepons do you have any idea what stand off wepons we have
> 
> please il ask you my intellegent sir google it and do some research
> 
> the main thing is indian navy will never send CBG for blocking your sea lanes as i told before its not worth risking CBG to do naval blockade of a country like pakistan
> 
> as for your super dupar F 16s well bhai that will be your biggest tactical mistake if ever you send them to do naval job as thanks to friends like israelies & singaporeans we now have quite a bit of inside knowledge of your primarry platform
> 
> you donthave to worry onli carrier based Mig29Ks as all your air bases are not more than 150 kilometers from the indo pak border and there we have at least
> 100 MKIs +60 each of upgraded MIG 29s & M2Ks + 150 MIG 21 Bisons(all carry BVRs)
> backed by 150 jags for strike role
> 
> lolzzz even USA dosent uses F16s for naval jobs...you will need something like F18 or typhoon to do that job deu to range
> 
> so bhai ji thing is CBGs are not for naval blockade job tell me how will you attack us when nor do you have numbers niether the quwality
> 
> but then good luck cause you will need it more than us


man why you are taking pains and writing so much for him,we should answer him in his own language....

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## HariPrasad

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai thing is qwality and numbers and on those two parameters alone you are in no pstion to challenege india your onli hope is ...iff...iff i mean chinese come to your rescue but the thing is chinese will go to war onli when they want to they will never go to war to save pakistan cause if they do that it gives USA, Japan, S korea , Vietnam & Taiwan to fully and openli support india cause "an enemy of your enemy is your friend" but the thing is we are already going great guns and dont need anybodies help but in wartime that shal be apreciated and will not be forgotten but tell me which ummah nation will come to your rescue 'iff' ever theres a indo - pak war
> 
> now as for your AWACS well buddy i think you have no idea about them go and ask any PAF official and he will tell you why sending land based AWACS to open seas is a bad tactical move ..... well the thing is AWACS needs at least 2-4 Fighter aircrafts to escort it even if its in your own air space while CBGs ...read Indian CBGs have there own multiple heli based AWACs (K31 helix) now go and google it even USN uses E2D on its super carriers ever wondered why
> 
> as for there range wll by the thing is india already has Novotar K-100 very long range BVR missiles and each Mig 29K will carry at least one apart from 2 WVRs & 2 BVRs
> 
> one more thing pakistan is next door to india and during war time owr multiple & multi band PESA/ASEA/2D-3D-4D land based and aerostat radars will be scanning , tracking and annaylising all your movements cause most of them have 400 Km+ range which again will be backed by 5 phalcon AWACS + equal Number(if not more) of Indian made AWACS all of whome while remaining at least 50 Km inside indian air space can scan,track as far as hindukush mountain ranges & will alert all indian offensive & defensive assets simontainousli which in return will alert indian navy, indian air force and CBGs which will do the needfull to stop and blunt your attck well before they could even reach in a striking postion
> 
> as for satnd off wepons do you have any idea what stand off wepons we have
> 
> please il ask you my intellegent sir google it and do some research
> 
> the main thing is indian navy will never send CBG for blocking your sea lanes as i told before its not worth risking CBG to do naval blockade of a country like pakistan
> 
> as for your super dupar F 16s well bhai that will be your biggest tactical mistake if ever you send them to do naval job as thanks to friends like israelies & singaporeans we now have quite a bit of inside knowledge of your primarry platform
> 
> you donthave to worry onli carrier based Mig29Ks as all your air bases are not more than 150 kilometers from the indo pak border and there we have at least
> 100 MKIs +60 each of upgraded MIG 29s & M2Ks + 150 MIG 21 Bisons(all carry BVRs)
> backed by 150 jags for strike role
> 
> lolzzz even USA dosent uses F16s for naval jobs...you will need something like F18 or typhoon to do that job deu to range
> 
> so bhai ji thing is CBGs are not for naval blockade job tell me how will you attack us when nor do you have numbers niether the quwality
> 
> but then good luck cause you will need it more than us




Excellent analysis.

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## trident2010

As said many times ACC is not needed for pakistan but if needed, is a nightmare for the PN.


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> That is my opinion. I see you are agree on that.
> Forget about Nuclear Sub with western standard. Even china do not have it. Only we have that sub (Nepra). At the most Pakistan can get a nuke sub of dated (Even by chinese standard) technology.



You are totally outdated about Pakistan military capacity, from start PN had two option one western and other Chinese to develop nuclear sub and the approach PN have taken to develop is bit different and an American and western country is on board as per local news with China as backup, and to my knowledge PN already has capacity to launch land attack cruise missiles from its subsurface fleet, so PN already has limited nuke strike capacity. In case of emergency PN can put TELs of BMs & CMs on domestic commercial ships and launch them from open sea too.

In the end you can think whatever you want but it will not change reality of what we have to defend our interests, it will be good for us if you under estimate us.


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> Tell me how would you counter Brahmos?



Pakistan is in process of developing net centric warfare capability in which all services will share their resources, data and targets and by doing that Pakistan will increase its current fighting capacity by many folds.

Its true that brahmos is potent system and threat, but its not impossible to shoot it down and Pakistan will not be able to shoot down all in coming missiles and same goes for India. Pakistani military establishment dont see a single system as threat but they look how all Indian systems combined create threat for the nation and then they devise strategy to cope them, and to stop brahmos integrated air defense will work against it which will share its resources, information and even targets and when this will happen many systems will act to stop incoming threat not just one.


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## Alpha1

Basel said:


> so PN already has limited nuke strike capacity.


Are you talking about Babur launched from Agosta90b?


> *In case of emergency can put TELs of BMs & CMs on domestic commercial ships and launch them from open sea too.*
> 
> In the end you can think whatever you want but it will not change reality of what we have to defend our interests, it will be good for us if you under estimate us.


sounds to far fetched. commercial ships will be sitting ducks and there will be a huge probability of loosing considerable part of our deterence
and commercial ship are not designed to support ; carry TELS and launch BMs


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## Basel

Alpha1 said:


> sounds to far fetched. commercial ships will be sitting ducks and there will be a huge probability of loosing considerable part of our deterence
> and commercial ship are not designed to support ; carry TELS and launch BMs



Not far fetched, PN was ready to do it in hostilities if things go worse, and long range systems will be used to make sure launching ships remain safe and they will not be huge ships so it will be easier for them to shoot n scoot but still it will a daredevil mission which Pakistanis are not afraid to take if necessary.

Do you know PN was the first navy in region to initiate unmanned stealthy missile craft to launch BMs & CMs back in late 90s and boyz of NED University were behind it.



Alpha1 said:


> Are you talking about Babur launched from Agosta90b?



I don't know the system but during discussion with a friend who have many family members in PN told me that we have this capacity, he don't give details but said we can defend our self don't worry.


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## Alpha1

Basel said:


> Not far fetched, PN was ready to do it in hostilities if things go worse, and long range systems will be used to make sure launching ships remain safe and they will not be huge ships so it will be easier for them to shoot n scoot but still it will a daredevil mission which Pakistanis are not afraid to take if necessary.
> 
> Do you know PN was the first navy in region to initiate unmanned stealthy missile craft to launch BMs & CMs back in late 90s and boyz of NED University were behind it.


Incase of a conflict with India I hope we are lucky enough to stop india from enforcing a blockade IMO such ''ships'' will be of limited use and very vunreable. our ships will not be able to venture out far from the coast in either case.let alone escort an improvised BM TEL carrying cargo ships to a distance where our BMs can reach more targets than the BMs on land.
I won't count on them.


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## Basel

Alpha1 said:


> Incase of a conflict with India I hope we are lucky enough to stop india from enforcing a blockade IMO such ''ships'' will be of limited use and very vunreable. our ships will not be able to venture out far from the coast in either case.let alone escort an improvised BM TEL carrying cargo ships to a distance where our BMs can reach more targets than the BMs on land.
> I won't count on them.



What is hurting Pakistani military capacity is its economy, if it kicked starts then all three services have plans in place to implement which will take them to 21st century fighting force capability, we have made our own data link system which allow us to make communicate between NATO & non NATO systems and if you know Pakistani military capacity you will understand how much this capacity will increase their fighting and survival capacity.


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## Capt.Popeye

Alpha1 said:


> Incase of a conflict with India I hope we are lucky enough to stop india from enforcing a blockade IMO such ''ships'' will be of limited use and very vunreable. our ships will not be able to venture out far from the coast in either case.let alone escort an improvised BM TEL carrying cargo ships to a distance where our BMs can reach more targets than the BMs on land.
> I won't count on them.


 
I do not wish to comment on your post; except for the underlined part.
A BM TEL on a Merchant Ship is/will be a sitting duck. Regardless of what fleet you have. In the Sea a slow-moving ship cannot hide and can be obliterated once identified and tracked. Which again is easy to do.
At Sea, the only platform for a BM that is viable is a Sub.
Otherwise keep the TELS on land; they will be far more mobile and concealable.

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## MilSpec

Alpha1 said:


> Incase of a conflict with India I hope we are lucky enough to stop india from enforcing a blockade IMO such ''ships'' will be of limited use and very vunreable. our ships will not be able to venture out far from the coast in either case.let alone escort an improvised BM TEL carrying cargo ships to a distance where our BMs can reach more targets than the BMs on land.
> I won't count on them.



I think I had foreseen Nasr on boat before as a checkmate argument, albeit somewhat diluted without the jingoism... this comes pretty close....


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Pakistan is in process of developing net centric warfare capability in which all services will share their resources, data and targets and by doing that Pakistan will increase its current fighting capacity by many folds.
> 
> Its true that brahmos is potent system and threat, but its not impossible to shoot it down and Pakistan will not be able to shoot down all in coming missiles and same goes for India. Pakistani military establishment dont see a single system as threat but they look how all Indian systems combined create threat for the nation and then they devise strategy to cope them, and to stop brahmos integrated air defense will work against it which will share its resources, information and even targets and when this will happen many systems will act to stop incoming threat not just one.




You are right. Brahmos is a potent system and Pakistan or China has nothing to shoot it down. Perhaps US or Russia can shoot it but no other country. We have so many other things to shootdown pakistani surface ships except Brahmos. All other naval assets (Except Ships) can easily be targeted by other missiles such as Prahar, Prithvi and agni, and K series.


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> to my knowledge PN already has capacity to launch land attack cruise missiles from its subsurface fleet, so PN already has limited nuke strike capacity




Do not make much difference as you may attack us from land. Your ships will have to travel a fair distance from your sea to attack southern part of India which is risky. Your surface ships definately can go to high sea to attack southern India. For your subs, It is risky too. You will always prefer to use ballistic missile insted.



Basel said:


> PN already has capacity to launch land attack cruise missiles from its subsurface fleet,




Never heard of. Pl provide the link. 



Basel said:


> In case of emergency PN can put TELs of BMs & CMs on domestic commercial ships and launch them from open sea too.



First of all prove that you can launch them from war ship. It is not easy to launch them from commercial ship as they lacks the infrastructure to launch it. In case you do, your commercial ships shall be considered as the war ship an shall be attacked. It will not be able to defend itself.


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## trident2010

Basel said:


> In case of emergency PN can put TELs of BMs & CMs on domestic commercial ships and launch them from open sea too.



It is sounds like a good idea but the problem with this is that India has number of remote sensing satellites deployed over the south asia. Each image is checked by the experts and if PN wants to load any ship with missiles, it will be shown in the pictures. Indian forces will share this information and will destroy that ship before it can fire. To succeed, you needs 10s of ships with 100s of armed missile to make sure one or two of these would slip through and do the damage. Too expensive and risky option in my opinion.


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## indiatester

trident2010 said:


> It is sounds like a good idea but the problem with this is that India has number of remote sensing satellites deployed over the south asia. *Each image is checked by the experts* and if PN wants to load any ship with missiles, it will be shown in the pictures. Indian forces will share this information and will destroy that ship before it can fire. To succeed, you needs 10s of ships with 100s of armed missile to make sure one or two of these would slip through and do the damage. Too expensive and risky option in my opinion.



We must have software for that by now. Don't we?


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## trident2010

indiatester said:


> We must have software for that by now. Don't we?



No, since softwares are not as good the eye on an expert. They use software to enhance it but final call is made by the person.

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## Mitro

*what ever you mention is future aquisition and not currently oeprational and nobody has seen future you never know what your enemy have it then.

and which ever weapon or missile i mention are currently operation with your enemy thats the reality.*



HariPrasad said:


> That is my opinion. I see you are agree on that.
> 
> Forget about Nuclear Sub with western standard. Even china do not have it. Only we have that sub (Nepra). At the most Pakistan can get a nuke sub of dated (Even by chinese standard) technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you forget Hypersonic Shaurya?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me how would you counter Brahmos?
> 
> 
> 
> First of all they are AWE &C not AWACS. We have K 100 AWACS killer. Which can target AWACS from 400 KM. We are developing SAM of 300 KM range.
> 
> Even though your AWA& C Direct BABUR And RAAD (Actually it is nonsense as they are Surface to surface and Air to surface missile.) to Viky, we have sufficient counter measure in form of EW suit, Multi fire Gun etc. Barak 8 will come shortly as well as Matri.



*Why you forget about their missile Abdali,shaheen,babur,raad,ghauri*



HariPrasad said:


> But Prahar can hit lots and lots of Pakistani Stratagic assets in its limited range of 150 KM with a deadly accuracy of 2 m CEP. You forgot Prithvi and Agni Series.
> 
> 
> *please post any link that says Prahaar and Shaurya operation and deploye*d
> 
> You are making fun of yourself on forum.
> 
> 
> *Thats why you did nothing when 26-11 happen and *_*Operation Parakram and you know how many indian soldier died without firing a single bullet and cost you $200billion* _
> 
> So far as Pakistan is concern we are sleeping with peace in mind without and any tension. We are worried about China only.


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> You are right. Brahmos is a potent system and Pakistan or China has nothing to shoot it down. Perhaps US or Russia can shoot it but no other country. We have so many other things to shootdown pakistani surface ships except Brahmos. All other naval assets (Except Ships) can easily be targeted by other missiles such as Prahar, Prithvi and agni, and K series.



Once again to much over confidence, I hope @gambit joins this thread and post what he has posted before about how net centric fighting force can employ its system to stop an incoming threat, that kind of force don't need specific anti supersonic missile defense to stop a missile like brahmos.



HariPrasad said:


> Do not make much difference as you may attack us from land. Your ships will have to travel a fair distance from your sea to attack southern part of India which is risky. Your surface ships definately can go to high sea to attack southern India. For your subs, It is risky too. You will always prefer to use ballistic missile insted.



When Agosta 90Bs which are upgraded will go hunting your navy will be on their toes, because one tiny mistake and they are gone. PN now want these subs to have air defense capability while submerged it will add more punch and your assets like P-8s will be in pressure too.



trident2010 said:


> is sounds like a good idea but the problem with this is that India has number of remote sensing satellites deployed over the south asia. Each image is checked by the experts and if PN wants to load any ship with missiles, it will be shown in the pictures. Indian forces will share this information and will destroy that ship before it can fire. To succeed, you needs 10s of ships with 100s of armed missile to make sure one or two of these would slip through and do the damage. Too expensive and risky option in my opinion.



No they can be hide, have u seen Russian Klub missile develop to be deployed from merchant ships??


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## Mitro

Desperadors are those who don't have any capacity and pretend to have it 
e.g
1)Tejas mk1 is not ready and ppl talk about mk2 
2)Air launch brahmos is in drawing board and ppl talk about destroying the enemy with that 
3)Nuclear sub is just prototype 
4)russian sub cannot carry nuke
5)Aircraft carrier battle group without proper air defense
6)Ageing sub 
7)Scorpion sub without AIP.
8)despite of Arjun tank but still army buys T90.
9) no long range air or ground launch cruise missile .

Pakistan have right weapon system to defend them self 
already have sub that are more advance with AIP then kilo class and scorpion sub do not have AIP 
F22p frigate enough to protect their shore lines and missile boats with 180 km range cruise missile.
they spend less money and make you guys spend more money and you guys end up buying dud's weapons without tot so they keep on buying .

Pakistan has the technology to make Sub and knowledge to make reactor fot it i bet it will be more advance and cheaper then indian sub marine and it will be in service before indian nuke sub.



Storm Force said:


> Czar 786 sounds desperate.
> 
> Somebody ask this fella how many nuke subs Pakistan building or how many destroyers and frigates they building. Ask him what Pakistan can do with a tiny forex of 8 billion versus 300 billion for poor India. Does this Pakistani understand theddirect correlation on no GDP = no military capability.. cruise missles from China will do zilch in the end.


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## Basel

link for those who think missiles cant be hide and launched from commercial ships specially for those who praise Russia, now tell me is Russia stupid that they develop this??








Club-K Container Missile System Royalty Free Stock Photography - Image: 26146327

another link.

Deadly new Russian weapon hides in shipping container| Reuters


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## trident2010

Basel said:


> No they can be hide, have u seen Russian Klub missile develop to be deployed from merchant ships??



Yes they can hide but when they are transported to the ships at that time can be detected. During peace time when the satellite data is not scrutinise in as much detail as during the confrontation, it has more chances to slip through. 

As I said before, PN will need many ships with hundreds of missile and hope that few can slip through the IN surveillance to do the job.


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## Basel

trident2010 said:


> Yes they can hide but when they are transported to the ships at that time can be detected. During peace time when the satellite data is not scrutinise in as much detail as during the confrontation, it has more chances to slip through.
> As I said before, PN will need many ships with hundreds of missile and hope that few can slip through the IN surveillance to do the job.



How much area Indian sats cover?? because PN may not just use its own ports to launch these type of ships (if ever needed) and they will use long range missile. Many Indian are here are very over confident of stuff they have purchased from other countries, if India is so good then why afraid of China, go and finish them with all the advance tech you have and Chinese stuff is junk as per Indians in most forums then why afraid?? Chest thumping is easy and fighting a war is totally different ball game. 

Indians think they have Russia with them what they don't understand that they had USSR with them in 1971 and now its Russia with you and Russia is not USSR if you understand the difference between them. China is next USSR level upcoming power in the world and whole world knows that and you think you can mess up with its Israel (Pakistan) and run away with it, and China will not take measures to protect its Israel (Pakistan), for tech / stuff India spend billions to have we get counter tech in just millions due to China.


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## trident2010

Basel said:


> How much area Indian sats cover??



It covers all of south asia, china and part of central asia. Also since all the remote sensing satellites are sun synchronous, they can see any point on the earth passing through their orbit.

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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> I hope @gambit joins this thread and post what he has posted before about how net centric fighting force can employ its system to stop an incoming threat,




Very funny!!!!

How network centeric force is going to counter a missile? Any idea? or shooting from Hips? Do you know what network centeric force mean? Pl give me a single reference which says that network centric force counter a missile Or anything without a proper weapon to counter it? Only Single reference. 



Basel said:


> When Agosta 90Bs which are upgraded will go hunting your navy will be on their toes, because one tiny mistake and they are gone. PN now want these subs to have air defense capability while submerged it will add more punch and your assets like P-8s will be in pressure too.




Now you seem to have accepted the fact that only sub surface ship of Pakistan can be a threat to India and not surface vessel.


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## HariPrasad

Czar786 said:


> Why you forget about their missile Abdali,shaheen,babur,raad,ghauri




Because they are not anti ship missile.



Czar786 said:


> 1)Tejas mk1 is not ready and ppl talk about mk2



MK 1 is ready today. MK2 is under construction. It is same as pakistan talks of Block 2 without Block 1 getting FOC.



Czar786 said:


> 2)Air launch brahmos is in drawing board and ppl talk about destroying the enemy with that



Brahmos is a operational system for many years. Aircrft is getting ready to integrate it.



Czar786 said:


> 3)Nuclear sub is just prototype



It has entered a crucial phase of testing and delivery systems are ready.



Czar786 said:


> 4)russian sub cannot carry nuke



Very funny. Keep entertaining.



Czar786 said:


> 5)Aircraft carrier battle group without proper air defense



It has very strong EW suit to counter any plane or missile from 500 KM away. CBI filled closure report in Barak case. Very soon Barak 8 will be there to counter high speed missile. Current anti aircraft guns are more than sufficient to counter any subsonic missile.



Czar786 said:


> 6)Ageing sub



4 Arihant class, 4 scorpin class under construction. More nepra will be leased.



Czar786 said:


> 7)Scorpion sub without AIP.



Future version shall have it.



Czar786 said:


> 8)despite of Arjun tank but still army buys T90.


The orders were given a long back. No new order for T 90. 250 Arjun are on order. More order after Testing of MK2 is over.



Czar786 said:


> 9) no long range air or ground launch cruise missile .



Nirbhay will be operational within 3 years. However they are Not required. In Pakistan's case. Brahmos is more than sufficient. There is an army of Ballastic missile with high accuracy which can do the job.



Czar786 said:


> Pakistan have right weapon system to defend them self



Pakistan has hardly anything to defend. (Yes, they have the things to attack)



Czar786 said:


> what ever you mention is future aquisition and not currently oeprational and nobody has seen future you never know what your enemy have it then.
> and which ever weapon or missile i mention are currently operation with your enemy thats the reality.




Pl talk specific and not general. If we do not know what enemy will have than enemy also do not know ahat we will have. Missile you mentioned operational but for different role and are of no use for topic under discussion. The missile I mentioned are also operational.

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## HariPrasad

indiatester said:


> We must have software for that by now. Don't we?




In fact If Pakistan does that, that will give India a chance to destroy all merchant ships of pakistan saying that it carries Missile.


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## gambit

Basel said:


> Once again to much over confidence, I hope @gambit joins this thread and post what he has posted before about how net centric fighting force can employ its system to stop an incoming threat, that kind of force don't need specific anti supersonic missile defense to stop a missile like brahmos.


Networking is about the sharing of data and share it as fast and as often as possible.

For example...A machine gun can bring down a supersonic cruise missile if enough bullets hit it, so theoretically speaking, we can have an array of anti-aircraft machine guns of large calibers slaved to high power radars and networked to each other to have an effective point defense of any incoming threats. But the downside to that idea is that not all bullets are going to hit the threat missile so we will end up with a lot of bullets raining down and possibly killing our own people.

It is not so much about networking but about how are you going to exploit that capability -- the sharing of data -- so that there is less of the need for a dedicated anti-whatever weapon and more about using the current weapons platforms that you have to accomplish defense.

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## fockewulf190

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I picked my figure from here
> 
> MIG-29 TECHNICAL DETAILS
> 
> which mentions total internal fuel capacity of around 6900 ltrs. there are a lot of sources with different claims. Bharat Rakshak claims something else. Anyways, one thing they agree on it total capacity including internal fuel approaches 10000 kg. Combat radius again depends upon m_i_ssion profile. It is not constant.


su30mki total load of fuel is 9.2 tons so i don think mig 29k will have 10 tons. 5.5 ton sounds more correct IMHO


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## Basel

trident2010 said:


> It covers all of south asia, china and part of central asia. Also since all the remote sensing satellites are sun synchronous, they can see any point on the earth passing through their orbit.



Can India track all assets at sea 24/7 now? and Indian think they are the only one who can do that in Asia??



captain steel said:


> one think u dont understand pussy cat, world war two is remebered best for operation barbarossa the german invasion of soviet union and u know what germans killed more then 75 million red army soldiers and only 8 million german soldiers died. u know what ussr had more than 34000 planes vs german 4500 planes and u know what happened their was no air support left for the ussr , ussr struggled to keep fighting, germans had opened the deadlist front in the history......in world war two germany fought alone with the whole world because they were on the wrong side but this time ur so called chinese ussr is on the wrong side and ur so called pakistan will be crushed like italy..moral of the story is "a fucked up bitch is on the sucidal mission with china on its side to support and kill as many people as possible" u are a failed state....



Another emotional Indian, if west n Israel backed out China will crush u, its them who have saved your face and Russia need China more than India, and have you read Art of War? its Chinese and they know fighting more than Russians and India, you only talk about 1900 till date in start of which China was occupied like India. After their Independence which happend after India see where they are and where India is and they got this place having disputes and civil war, still they are devided but they dont need other like India, who need backing of west, Russian n Israel to bluff against China.


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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> Very funny!!!!
> How network centeric force is going to counter a missile? Any idea? or shooting from Hips? Do you know what network centeric force mean? Pl give me a single reference which says that network centric force counter a missile Or anything without a proper weapon to counter it? Only Single reference.



Pakistan have assets which can handle supersonic missiles and when different systems work together they can stop in coming missiles.


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## Basel

gambit said:


> Networking is about the sharing of data and share it as fast and as often as possible.
> For example...A machine gun can bring down a supersonic cruise missile if enough bullets hit it, so theoretically speaking, we can have an array of anti-aircraft machine guns of large calibers slaved to high power radars and networked to each other to have an effective point defense of any incoming threats. But the downside to that idea is that not all bullets are going to hit the threat missile so we will end up with a lot of bullets raining down and possibly killing our own people.
> It is not so much about networking but about how are you going to exploit that capability -- the sharing of data -- so that there is less of the need for a dedicated anti-whatever weapon and more about using the current weapons platforms that you have to accomplish defense.



The example of sharing resources is JAS-39 G ripens which even use each others assets to engage enemy via data link.

Pakistan is not just going to use AAAs and AAAs are still effective one example is phalanx on ships, China have similar systems mounted on trucks they even use C-RAM type system on trucks.

I will try to post available weblinks of systems which Pakistan will use in its net centric system they will share information, data, and assets.

Spada 2000 Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology
.
Crotale (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Oerlikon 35 mm twin cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Pakistan Acquires Chinese Made PG99 (CS/SA1) wheeled Anti-Aircraft Guns
.
All above system can stop any incoming missile if they jointly. Anza-III is now also vehicle mounted and automated like Crotale's and Pakistan have some more systems which are not public.

In first link Chinese equivalent of phalanx mounted on vehicle.

www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fglobalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fchinese-ld-2000-counter-rocket_19.html&ei=mJS0UtXuM4KDtAbe-4Ao&usg=AFQjCNHEYsJDsNYE8uvaAltqqnyYIDUkXQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.Yms
.
Defense Updates: FL-3000N / HHQ-10 Missile CIWS Air Defense System


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## Storm Force

Czar 76



> Desperadors are those who don't have any capacity and pretend to have it
> e.g
> 1)Tejas mk1 is not ready and ppl talk about mk2
> 2)Air launch brahmos is in drawing board and ppl talk about destroying the enemy with that
> 3)Nuclear sub is just prototype
> 4)russian sub cannot carry nuke
> 5)Aircraft carrier battle group without proper air defense
> 6)Ageing sub
> 7)Scorpion sub without AIP.
> 8)despite of Arjun tank but still army buys T90.
> 9) no long range air or ground launch cruise missile .


 
Tejas achieved IOC 2 today a brand new 28000 sq foot production facility opened to produce 16 TEJAS a year.

Brahmos air launched version. Heck we send ships to Mars you doubting our technology foolish person. It will ready by 2015-2017 same time the super SU30MKI arrive

Nuclear sub is not a prototype it is going thru sea trials and 3 more being built . How many pajkistan building ???


New CBG just started forming the CIWS and barak 8 sams have already been selected wil be added by 2016=2017

Scorporne subs are one full generation newer than your AGOSTA and will be 6 in nos not 3

124 Arjuns in service 124 more being built by2016 mk2 thereafter between 2017-2021

Dont need long range cruise missles ..We have 300 SU30MKI with immense range..

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## trident2010

Basel said:


> Can India track all assets at sea 24/7 now? and Indian think they are the only one who can do that in Asia??



Yes, India can track all assets at sea 24/7 in south asia, china and most of the middle east. So if PN try to load commercial ships with arms, it will de detected and tracked.


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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> Pakistan have assets which can handle supersonic missiles and when different systems work together they can stop in coming missiles.




India has a system to shoot down sun when when different systems work together!!!!!!!!!

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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> India has a system to shoot down sun when when different systems work together!!!!!!!!!



feel happy with whatever you think, only war will tell what India and Pakistan can do, and thank you for under estimating Pakistan.


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## Basel

captain steel said:


> what do u think of our tactics, our cold start is nothing but Blitzkrieg tactics its 2013 today and by far its enough for ur pakistan if we want we can take over ur country in a flash but u know we need something just more than a terrorist attack on our ecnomical capital, we just need one nuclear missile of urs in our endo atmosphere......game over for pakistan, it will become a desert and and india will then use it for nuclear range and artileery field we will love to do that and about china, china isnt a fool like u they just back u so that they can stay away from ur terrorist attacks nothing more u white pussy cat bura mat mananaits all about economic infulence india wants it to by far china is on fire 2nd most powerful economy they want do anything stupid....for what reasons u think russia needs china huh!!! so that they can takeover the worlds big arms deal away from russia, russia hates china for copying their stuff and we hate u because u use it agaisnt india.....cant live in peace if we give u kashmir u will demand for himachal and story goes on and on and ontill kerela but i dont give a damn......so again bura mat manana



India can't win a war against Pakistan and ppl are not afraid of India too, its our politicians and corrupt system who is destroying us and allowing other to play proxy war here, Pakistan needs one true leader who can take it away from this situation because we are full of resources which many countries dream, we can be next KSA in terms of gas and oil, with gold, silver and copper reserves and so many other things which are buried in land of Pakistan.

Therefore if anyone think it will take decades to get Pakistan's economy on track even if we have situation under control in country and everything in right track, then he is living fool heaven, even in this worst situation US firms are itching to work here in oil and gas exploration.


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## Chronos

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> You are forgetting one very important thing. The MIG29's are severely short legged. They are not being launched through a catapult, it is through a ski jump. Most likely the pilots will have to take off with half the weight as they would have already burned up most of their fuel during the take off. I would say they would have a maximum patrol radius of 250-300 km. In order for the aircraft to be effective against the enemy, IN commanders would have to bring the Carrier forward making it vulnerable to enemy's ASM strikes.



Sir, your Tyrion Lannister avatar is awesome 



Basel said:


> feel happy with whatever you think, only war will tell what I*ndia and Pakistan can do*, and thank you for under estimating Pakistan.



Why are people on both sides so eager for war? Do people even know the consequences? The sheer number of casualties and economic damage.

We both have nuclear weapons too.

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## Basel

Ravi Nair said:


> Why are people on both sides so eager for war? Do people even know the consequences? The sheer number of casualties and economic damage.
> We both have nuclear weapons too.
> 4 minutes ago #464
> Report Bookmark
> Reply



Its not Pakistanis who want was on PDF, its Indian who think they can crush us with their super duper weapons.


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## Chronos

Basel said:


> Its not Pakistanis who want was on PDF, its Indian who think they can crush us w*ith their super duper weapons.*



Indians who are on the net represent what? 10% of the population?

The Indian government is not as deluded as them. And I am under no delusion that we are a Soopa Pawa.

That being said, I don't take seriously the claims of people on both sides claiming to defeat each other.

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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> feel happy with whatever you think, only war will tell what India and Pakistan can do, and thank you for under estimating Pakistan.




You are neck dip in delusion. Pl come out.

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## GURU DUTT

captain steel said:


> what if we use our CBG to break pakistan in a three front war with the help of our army and airforce
> 1.first we will give answers to pakistani soldiers in jammu kashmir(after they throw all thier tanks and fighters busy in thier.
> 2.we will open the second front from punjab and rajisthan no tanks needed here terrain doesnt support tank movements we will use our rocket launchers and infentry to take over west punjab of pakistan.
> 3.we will launch CBG attacks on karachi and a supportive attack from gujrat region to take over karachi.
> 4.heavily mechanised infantry to take care of china in leh aswell as in arunanchal pradesh.
> what a day it would be man pakistan, now this is for pakistani kids on the site, "tell me how will u defend ur failed state" and that to when indian offensive is ON.


well buddy you are giving them too much importence thing is if ever there is a war before we know it started pakistan is going to use neukes as they very well know the ground realities and there is no way they can fight in the open they had managed to do in all previous wars were either they used there poxies/non state actors or ther servicemen dressed as mujahidins ... they can never fight man to man even in bangladesh they put up a fight as they had no option to do anything 

as for CBG its not for them its for china or pirates in indian ocean or arabian sea for there karachi owr bases in pune , jaiselmer , baroda are more than enof for them to handle rest will be taken care of by some 12 other air bases long the indo pak border 

i dont understand why pakkistanies ahve this fetich to drown owr ACC when they will not be even able to ...kahir jane to aap khud samjhdar ho ki what i was going to say

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## Oldman1

Basel said:


> link for those who think missiles cant be hide and launched from commercial ships specially for those who praise Russia, now tell me is Russia stupid that they develop this??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Club-K Container Missile System Royalty Free Stock Photography - Image: 26146327
> 
> another link.
> 
> Deadly new Russian weapon hides in shipping container| Reuters



Its pretty stupid. So stupid other countries will deny entry to any countries that uses such method. And they are easily detected and sunk. For example a U.S. carrier battle group in wartime will not allow a commercial vessel within a thousand miles if such weapon and method was used.

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## GURU DUTT

captain steel said:


> it was just a strategy which will give to much damage to pakistan as far as nukes are considred in war the secret missions are never shared with public, as far as i know the above stated strategy will also be having some secret missions to take over secret positions aur launch bases of enemy before they can even hit something like a commando operation to disable nukes aur a very fast offensive operation within 1-2 days or like bombing the nuclear facilities before the start of offensives their are several types of missions that can easily handle nukes firing...


well bhai whatever you justsaid is fine but the thing is paksiatn is much in deep$$hit deu to constan cvil war like situation from the last 12 years that it cant excersise any of those option cause the major problem for them in not india but USA and tallibunnies as TPT wants a total change of system while US wants a safe exit + limited hold on afghanistan and pakistan and for that they need to take away pakistani neukes so almost a very large portion of there air force & elite forces and millitarry is deployed to gaurd those neukes and rest is bizzi frighting the tallibunnies now if they go for an adventure with india USA will not hesitate to take owt pakistani nekes like they did with OBL and TPT will not loose a chance to settle scores with the army not to forget IAF is already drwaing up plans for multiple surgikal strikes on anty india activities done in pakistan ...do you realli think they will have time to or power to do anything like you just said

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## Xracer

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai whatever you justsaid is fine but the thing is paksiatn is much in deep$$hit deu to constan cvil war like situation from the last 12 years that it cant excersise any of those option cause the major problem for them in not india but USA and tallibunnies as TPT wants a total change of system while US wants a safe exit + limited hold on afghanistan and pakistan and for that they need to take away pakistani neukes so almost a very large portion of there air force & elite forces and millitarry is deployed to gaurd those neukes and rest is bizzi frighting the tallibunnies now if they go for an adventure with india USA will not hesitate to take owt pakistani nekes like they did with OBL and TPT will not loose a chance to settle scores with the army not to forget IAF is already drwaing up plans for multiple surgikal strikes on anty india activities done in pakistan ...do you realli think they will have time to or power to do anything like you just said


LOL Bro Stop Dreaming that all of our force is guarding our Nuclear assets or fighting Taliban's. We have separate Special Force that is taking care of our Nukes as for INDIA Our Army still in that position That they can afford Full fledged War with India and for *deep multiple surgikal strikes on anty india activities done in pakistan* didint u and your so called friend tried that in 80's we are in almost in 2014 so forget so options cause we got alot of options


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## Slayer786

captain steel said:


> what do u think of our tactics, our cold start is nothing but *Blitzkrieg tactics *its 2013 today and by far its enough for ur pakistan if we want we can take over ur country in a flash but u know we need something just more than a terrorist attack on our ecnomical capital, *we just need one nuclear missile of urs in our endo atmosphere......game over for pakistan, *it will become a desert and and india will then use it for nuclear range and artileery field we will love to do that and about china, china isnt a fool like u they just back u so that they can stay away from ur terrorist attacks nothing more u white pussy cat bura mat mananaits all about economic infulence india wants it to by far china is on fire 2nd most powerful economy they want do anything stupid....for what reasons u think russia needs china huh!!! so that they can takeover the worlds big arms deal away from russia, russia hates china for copying their stuff and we hate u because u use it agaisnt india.....cant live in peace if we give u kashmir u will demand for himachal and story goes on and on and ontill kerela but i dont give a damn......so again bura mat manana



What delusional minds we have here.


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## GURU DUTT

Xracer said:


> LOL Bro Stop Dreaming that all of our force is guarding our Nuclear assets or fighting Taliban's. We have separate Special Force that is taking care of our Nukes as for INDIA Our Army still in that position That they can afford Full fledged War with India and for *deep multiple surgikal strikes on anty india activities done in pakistan* didint u and your so called friend tried that in 80's we are in almost in 2014 so forget so options cause we got alot of options


he he he he bhai i know what im talking about but the bottom line is your army can never muster the courage to attack india like a real army all they will do is divert some of there so called 'staretegick assets' to kill a few innocent civilians in name of 'jihad' as for the 'other options ' lolzzz bhai we all know ...khair jane do its a nice thread and i dont want to be banned from it

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## Xracer

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he he bhai i know what im talking about but the bottom line is your army can never muster the courage to attack india like a real army all they will do is divert some of there so called 'staretegick assets' to kill a few innocent civilians in name of 'jihad' as for the 'other options ' lolzzz bhai we all know ...khair jane do its a nice thread and i dont want to be banned from it


Mate i didn't ask any thing about courage to attack india i think u forgot u posted that all Pakistani Army is busy to keep Nukes safe and there is not enough army to defend county from real Enemies i just answered that.India also got Nukes does all of your army is Out side Nuclear Facilities.bro its not like that & As far as i know Pak Army Didn't attack India in the First Place ever and i think u that know better than me.okay as u say lets not ruin this Thread


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## Khaqan Humayun

American Pakistani said:


> Yes they are threat to Pakistan but Pakistan has invested in Carrier Killers as above member too has mentioned. For now these should be a threat to india's billion$ ACC's.
> 
> But I think in future Pakistan should try getting one.


This time Pakistan Navy Must Induct J11b as they were Planing to Induct J11B to Counter this situation
2nd Our coastal Area is not too big we must make a good naval Air Craft jet force rather than buying a career in the mean while we try to Build our own Career by using Chinese Experience Pakistan Navy must redesign its Naval Aviation and last and final _*(Hum India k Bap sa b Nahe Darty AlhumduLillah Allah na Muslim Khon asa bnaya ha k Jb b Hindo hamare Traf Male aankh sa dakhy ga Hum Ussy Mun tor Jawab dyn gy).*_


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## akshay gehlot

Khaqan Humayun said:


> This time Pakistan Navy Must Induct J11b as they were Planing to Induct J11B to Counter this situation
> 2nd Our coastal Area is not too big we must make a good naval Air Craft jet force rather than buying a career in the mean while we try to Build our own Career by using Chinese Experience Pakistan Navy must redesign its Naval Aviation and last and final _*(Hum India k Bap sa b Nahe Darty AlhumduLillah Allah na Muslim Khon asa bnaya ha k Jb b Hindo hamare Traf Male aankh sa dakhy ga Hum Ussy Mun tor Jawab dyn gy).*_




1. its carrier not career

2. can you please elaborate what good a naval fighter would do without carrier. i mean its better to station 2 squads of air force for specificaly that role. it would save the costs of opening an entire new division, separate training , trainers and schools, infrastructue etc.

3.about aircraft carrier ambitions of pak there are many old carriers which they can buy with very little budget and get carrier practice ex. Sao paulo carrier in brazil navy

4. about the highlited part : the diff b/w you and us is that while you can address yourself all the other members muslims and i cannot because india is not a hindu country and nor are all the members hindu. it is a blessing in disguise which helps us keep our eyes open and not overshadowed by a single opinion even if the opinion is right. we get to hear everyone's story

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## Khaqan Humayun

akshay gehlot said:


> 1. its carrier not career
> 
> 2. can you please elaborate what good a naval fighter would do without carrier. i mean its better to station 2 squads of air force for specificaly that role. it would save the costs of opening an entire new division, separate training , trainers and schools, infrastructue etc.
> 
> 3.about aircraft carrier ambitions of pak there are many old carriers which they can buy with very little budget and get carrier practice ex. Sao paulo carrier in brazil navy
> 
> 4. about the highlited part : the diff b/w you and us is that while you can address yourself all the other members muslims and i cannot because india is not a hindu country and nor are all the members hindu. it is a blessing in disguise which helps us keep our eyes open and not overshadowed by a single opinion even if the opinion is right. we get to hear everyone's story


We have Navel Air force it is not a bib deal for our Navy. Seen what you are doing in Tamil Nado, Andra Pardesh, Madhea Pardesh, as Much I know In village and cities the most poor population is Muslim.
See how many minority are happy with Hindo mined set You killed Sikhs in Operation Blue Star, Muslims in AhmadaBad. How can you say even the name is Hindustan represent as a Hindu state Akhand Bharat what does it means????
In Hinduism you have cast system low cast I thing (achot) are not happy with Brhaman and others
you just fabricate thing and in media you use sugar coated words but in Real still you kill daughters still you want to have Aakhand Bharat yesterday I saw video your brhaman was saying Muslims must returned to Makkah or any other Muslim country India is only for Hindu you believe or not but reality is completely different.

We have Navel Air force it is not a big deal for our Navy. See what you are doing in Tamil Nado, Andra Pardesh, Madhea Pardesh, as Much I know In village and cities the most poor population is Muslim.
See how many minority are happy with Hindo mined set, You killed Sikhs in Operation Blue Star, Muslims in AhmadaBad. How can you say that it is not only a Hindu state even the name is Hindustan represent as a Hindu state Akhand Bharat what does it means????
In Hinduism you have cast system low cast I thing (achoot) are not happy with Brhaman and others
you just fabricate thing and in media you use sugar coated words but in Real still you kill daughters still you want to have Aakhand Bharat yesterday I saw video your brhaman was saying Muslims must returned to Makkah or any other Muslim country India is only for Hindu you believe or not but reality is completely different.


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## Capt.Popeye

Khaqan Humayun said:


> We have Navel Air force it is not a bib deal for our Navy. Seen what you are doing in Tamil Nado, Andra Pardesh, Madhea Pardesh, as Much I know In village and cities the most poor population is Muslim.
> See how many minority are happy with Hindo mined set You killed Sikhs in Operation Blue Star, Muslims in AhmadaBad. How can you say even the name is Hindustan represent as a Hindu state Akhand Bharat what does it means????
> In Hinduism you have cast system low cast I thing (achot) are not happy with Brhaman and others
> you just fabricate thing and in media you use sugar coated words but in Real still you kill daughters still you want to have Aakhand Bharat yesterday I saw video your brhaman was saying Muslims must returned to Makkah or any other Muslim country India is only for Hindu you believe or not but reality is completely different.
> 
> We have Navel Air force it is not a big deal for our Navy. See what you are doing in Tamil Nado, Andra Pardesh, Madhea Pardesh, as Much I know In village and cities the most poor population is Muslim.
> See how many minority are happy with Hindo mined set, You killed Sikhs in Operation Blue Star, Muslims in AhmadaBad. How can you say that it is not only a Hindu state even the name is Hindustan represent as a Hindu state Akhand Bharat what does it means????
> In Hinduism you have cast system low cast I thing (achoot) are not happy with Brhaman and others
> you just fabricate thing and in media you use sugar coated words but in Real still you kill daughters still you want to have Aakhand Bharat yesterday I saw video your brhaman was saying Muslims must returned to Makkah or any other Muslim country India is only for Hindu you believe or not but reality is completely different.


 
*ARREY MIYAN; TUM KEHNA KYA CHAHTEY HO ?*

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## Basel

Ravi Nair said:


> Indians who are on the net represent what? 10% of the population?
> The Indian government is not as deluded as them. And I am under no delusion that we are a Soopa Pawa.
> That being said, I don't take seriously the claims of people on both sides claiming to defeat each other.



Hope we have sane ppl on both sides who can discuss things unbiasedly.



captain steel said:


> i will be glad to see pakistan become a worthy country which may fight india, but u know the case is same here we are not afraid of china and pakistan, but our corrupt leaders are afraid because they think india cant take on the two sided war but our armed forces are capable of disarming pak in one hefty strike and u know INDIA will someday take its land back now named pakistan and bangladesh..



It will be India's biggest blunder if the engage in a conflict with China assuming they will win by having support of US and its allies, they are just using you against China. A conflict will China will only waste your resources in delusion of becoming super power because even if China falls due to some reason then India will be next on list of US and its allies.


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## SrNair

Basel said:


> India can't win a war against Pakistan and ppl are not afraid of India too, its our politicians and corrupt system who is destroying us and allowing other to play proxy war here, Pakistan needs one true leader who can take it away from this situation because we are full of resources which many countries dream, we can be next KSA in terms of gas and oil, with gold, silver and copper reserves and so many other things which are buried in land of Pakistan.
> 
> Therefore if anyone think it will take decades to get Pakistan's economy on track even if we have situation under control in country and everything in right track, then he is living fool heaven, even in this worst situation US firms are itching to work here in oil and gas exploration.



If Indira Gandhi accept the request of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw in 1971.Then there is no pakistan
in world map.Indiraji reject it due to emotional ground.Now you think you can resist India .brother you cant do that.The only factor pakistan still alive is their nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons is both 
bless and curse for pakistan at same time.Ins vikramaditya and its CBG is enough to drawn the most of resources in PAF and PN to Arabian sea,If INS vikrant also field that is over kill.You tell about something
that pakistan going to do ,but that is now India already do.I hope you can understand



Slayer786 said:


> What delusional minds we have here.



captain steel is right.According to our doctrine we dont care nuclear attack is tactical,strategical or failed mission.We use full retaliatory force.

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## Basel

sreekumar said:


> If Indira Gandhi accept the request of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw in 1971.Then there is no pakistan
> in world map.Indiraji reject it due to emotional ground.Now you think you can resist India .brother you cant do that.The only factor pakistan still alive is their nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons is both
> bless and curse for pakistan at same time.Ins vikramaditya and its CBG is enough to drawn the most of resources in PAF and PN to Arabian sea,If INS vikrant also field that is over kill.You tell about something
> that pakistan going to do ,but that is now India already do.I hope you can understand



If she had ever done it US would have pushed China to go in India and teach them a lesson and would have backed it a situation which even USSR could not handle. Similar thing is said on your media link below.

How US and China worked together to save Pakistan in 1971

for those who think US would have done nothing to save west Pakistan and India has lost opportunity, by not proceeding war in west Pakistan India have saved it self.

CIA spy in Indian cabinet prevented Pakistan's annihilation

www.********.com/view?i=39b_1232764208


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## SrNair

Basel said:


> If she had ever done it US would have pushed China to go in India and teach them a lesson and would have backed it a situation which even USSR could not handle. Similar thing is said on your media link below.
> 
> How US and China worked together to save Pakistan in 1971
> 
> for those who think US would have done nothing to save west Pakistan and India has lost opportunity, by not proceeding war in west Pakistan India have saved it self.
> 
> CIA spy in Indian cabinet prevented Pakistan's annihilation
> 
> www.********.com/view?i=39b_1232764208




Indira Gandhi also considered the world opinion.You are right she also considered if another strike is
in west pakistan it will turn world opinion against India.And we our mission is to protect Bangladesh from genocide .When we complete that, our mission is finished.USSR 8th fleet is already in IOR at that time and So called US mighty 7th fleet is ran from IOR.we can also eliminate west pakistan at that time,china will not came to your help.Himalayan mountains already gave them trouble at that december month.they cant ensure their supplies and without that if they enter Indian Area then it all over for chinese troop.USSR is double power of USA at that time and US and china together cant handle USSR.India -USSR treaty also ensure insecurity of chinese, in russian -chinese border.Indira gandhi can lie world and can destroy pakistan.she dont that because it create permanent unstability in that country.So she dont want it and it is also make India a country like or rogue state Gandhi only consiidred that our long term reputation

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## Basel

sreekumar said:


> Indira Gandhi also considered the world opinion.You are right she also considered if another strike is
> in west pakistan it will turn world opinion against India.And we our mission is to protect Bangladesh from genocide .When we complete that, our mission is finished.USSR 8th fleet is already in IOR at that time and So called US mighty 7th fleet is ran from IOR.we can also eliminate west pakistan at that time,china will not came to your help.Himalayan mountains already gave them trouble at that december month.they cant ensure their supplies and without that if they enter Indian Area then it all over for chinese troop.USSR is double power of USA at that time and US and china together cant handle USSR.India -USSR treaty also ensure insecurity of chinese, in russian -chinese border.Indira gandhi can lie world and can destroy pakistan.she dont that because it create permanent unstability in that country.So she dont want it and it is also make India a country like NK.Indira Gandhi only consiidred that.



She did not care about world opinion, because if she does have cared about it she had stopped assault on Dhaka, She even wanted to finish west Pakistan but at that time US was ready to go at war to save west Pakistan and India even today is in no position to fight US. I have posted links to clarify the minds of those Indians who think that US would have not gone to war with them to save west Pakistan, do u know they have threatened USSR for war if India entered west Pakistan after creating Bangladesh. You ppl just clamming about fleet encounters which do happened but things changed for US when Bangladesh was created and west Pakistan was in danger.


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## acid rain

Capt.Popeye said:


> *ARREY MIYAN; TUM KEHNA KYA CHAHTEY HO ?*



A new guy joins up, he doesnt even know the names of the places properly. But comes up with rants about random happenings in a huge country with a huge diverse and intricate population in a totally unrelated thread. Doesnt it give an indication about the negative information and publicity that does the rounds in Pakistan about India?.



Basel said:


> She did not care about world opinion, because if she does have cared about it she had stopped assault on Dhaka, She even wanted to finish west Pakistan but at that time US was ready to go at war to save west Pakistan and India even today is in no position to fight US. I have posted links to clarify Indians mind that US would have not gone to war with them to save west Pakistan, do u know they have threatened USSR for war if India entered west Pakistan after creating Bangladesh. You ppl just clamming about fleet encounters which do happened but things changed for US when Bangladesh was created and west Pakistan was in danger.



There were a soviet camp and the US camp in those days. If Pakistan had fallen it would have been a major victory for the Soviet camp. There was no particular consideration for the US or chinese action other than that. The rule was that if US had interfered then the soviets wouldhave interfered as well. The chinese were scared sh!tless of the soviet retaliation if they had intefered, because the soviets had moved their missile batteries towards china. China though being in the US camp and their pet puddle at that moment did not dare to interfere because of this. The US were worried that after the fall of E Pakistan, India would go after W.Pakistan - this would have been a bad result for the cold war. Indira Gandhi though didnt pursue it.

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## Basel

acid rain said:


> There were a soviet camp and the US camp in those days. If Pakistan had fallen it would have been a major victory for the Soviet camp. There was no particular consideration for the US or chinese action other than that. The rule was that if US had interfered then the soviets wouldhave interfered as well. The chinese were scared sh!tless of the soviet retaliation if they had intefered, because the soviets had moved their missile batteries towards china. China though being in the US camp and their pet puddle at that moment did not dare to interfere because of this. The US were worried that after the fall of E Pakistan, India would go after W.Pakistan - this would have been a bad result for the cold war. Indira Gandhi though didnt pursue it.



You are right in first part in your post but what Indians on defense forums spread is its Indra Gandhi who don't go after west Pakistan after creation of Bangladesh due to respect of International Community which is wrong its self she had more guts than any other Indian leader till date, it was US's threat to USSR of a war between super powers which made USSR stop Indra Gandhi, because they know it would have destroyed whole world.


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## acid rain

Basel said:


> You are right in first part in your post but what Indians on defense forums spread is its Indra Gandhi who don't go after west Pakistan after creation of Bangladesh due to respect of International Community which is wrong its self she had more guts than any other Indian leader till date, it was US's threat to USSR of a war between super powers which made USSR stop Indra Gandhi, because they know it would have destroyed whole world.



Destruction of west Pakistan wasnt the motive of anyone to begin - it is not the motive even now, if that had been the motive we have already done something about that. India believe or not is non violent nation. It mostly reacts to agression. Situation on the Eastern front had gone out of hand. Yahya was hell bent to wipe out any opposition to Pakistan from there. PA was tasked to purge the revolution with an iron hand. People were getting killed and fleeing in large numbers. Indira time and again kept requesting the international community to do something about it. Though an invasion and liberation of bangladesh had been planned and mapped out, it was only after PAF started its bombing runs on IAF that the actual invasion happened. In most likelyhood if PA had stopped its brutal actions in E Pakistan and if PAF had not attacked, Indira wouldnt have ordered the IA ahead and would have let the seperation of bangladesh happen by a natural process. Bangladesh would have formed one way or the other. IA action just made it happen faster and in turn also saved a lot of Bangladeshi lives.

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## Capt.Popeye

Basel said:


> You are right in first part in your post but what Indians on defense forums spread is its Indra Gandhi who don't go after west Pakistan after creation of Bangladesh due to respect of International Community which is wrong its self she had more guts than any other Indian leader till date, it was US's threat to USSR of a war between super powers which made USSR stop Indra Gandhi, because they know it would have destroyed whole world.


 
You are wrong in your ***-umptions there. There was no threat of going to War between the Major Powers, USSR was then at the zenith of its powers. USA was badly bogged down in Viet Nam in 1971 and no hope in hell of unleashing a new War somewhere else.
China did not count for anything, and was just not interested in getting involved in other people's wars; hence did not respond to Yahya Khan's desperate entreaties to do something in the Himalayas. Plus it was Winter in the Himalayas. Nothing was possible.

Indira Gandhi herself had no interest in West Pakistan, because it was not worth it. So there was no question of USSR stopping anything in W.Pakistan. The only thing that was thought of was to re-adjust the LOC in Kashmir, specifically in the Kargil Area towards G-B. But Winter made that Ops not possible. In any case that was achieved later mainly in 1984 in Siachen.
The Main Objective in Bangla Desh had been achieved.

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## Basel

acid rain said:


> Destruction of west Pakistan wasnt the motive of anyone to begin - it is not the motive even now, if that had been the motive we have already done something about that. India believe or not is non violent nation. It mostly reacts to agression. Situation on the Eastern front had gone out of hand. Yahya was hell bent to wipe out any opposition to Pakistan from there. PA was tasked to purge the revolution with an iron hand. People were getting killed and fleeing in large numbers. Indira time and again kept requesting the international community to do something about it. Though an invasion and liberation of bangladesh had been planned and mapped out, it was only after PAF started its bombing runs on IAF that the actual invasion happened. In most likelyhood if PA had stopped its brutal actions in E Pakistan and if PAF had not attacked, Indira wouldnt have ordered the IA ahead and would have let the seperation of bangladesh happen by a natural process. Bangladesh would have formed one way or the other. IA action just made it happen faster and in turn also saved a lot of Bangladeshi lives.
> 36 minutes ago #489
> Report Bookmark
> Reply



Well India have done every thing it could to harm Pakistan and its neighbors, India is not a peace loving country but till now it don't have guts to take on Pakistan due to the reason that the damage it will cause to India even if Pakistan is wiped out of the map there will be very less India left for ppl to die in misery, in 1971 India took advantage of our internal situation and Indians have accepted that they created mukti bahni and their soldiers fought as mukti bahni and they were the ones who spread hatred against PA there which were increased due to stupid actions by Pakistani leadership, India is always after land and resources of other countries, it is violating Sind water treaty, it don't want to leave Siachen area where both countries are fighting useless war with weather and list goes on and on.


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## acid rain

Basel said:


> Well India have done every thing it could to harm Pakistan and its neighbors, India is not a peace loving country but till now it don't have guts to take on Pakistan due to the reason that the damage it will cause to India even if Pakistan is wiped out of the map there will be very less India left for ppl to die in misery, in 1971 India took advantage of our internal situation and Indians have accepted that they created mukti bahni and their soldiers fought as mukti bahni and they were the ones who spread hatred against PA there which were increased due to stupid actions by Pakistani leadership, India is always after land and resources of other countries, it is violating Sind water treaty, it don't want to leave Siachen area where both countries are fighting useless war with weather and list goes on and on.



Here's a misconception that most Pakistanis have - 71, if we desired we could have driven home the advantage. But instead of that we got a treaty of surrender signed and escorted the whole Pakistani army and its civilians out of Bangladesh - if it was harm that we had meant we would have left the 1 lakh or so Pakistanis in Bangladesh to be killedat the hands of the Bengalis. Also immediately after the surrender Indian forces backed out of West Pakistani areas as well. If the ulterior motive was destruction of Pakistan then (I am not boasting) it would have happened already. As capt.popeye said it isnt worth it.

Second misconception is about wiping out each other - wars are faught for a reason - at least we do it for a reason. During wars we normally avoid civilian areas and civilian casualties (other than in the fog of war) and fight only with the military or in the air or sea. So attacking any major civilian city is out of question. This is most likely followed by both the forces. 

When the criteria is winning the war and achieving the objectives then where is the question of killing civilians? and if PaK head honchos attacks a civilian city against a military confrontation then that would be suicidal.

@Basel, if land was the criteria then we would have annexed bangladesh immediately after winning. If land was the criteria we wouldnt have gone for a ceasefire in 65 or 48 or agreed to the tashkent or shimla treaty. siachen move was to negate pakistani move who were planning to capture it. We wouldnt have given you 80% water under IWT if we desired.

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## Basel

acid rain said:


> Here's a misconception that most Pakistanis have - 71, if we desired we could have driven home the advantage. But instead of that we got a treaty of surrender signed and escorted the whole Pakistani army and its civilians out of Bangladesh - if it was harm that we had meant we would have left the 1 lakh or so Pakistanis in Bangladesh to be killedat the hands of the Bengalis. Also immediately after the surrender Indian forces backed out of West Pakistani areas as well. If the ulterior motive was destruction of Pakistan then (I am not boasting) it would have happened already. As capt.popeye said it isnt worth it.
> Second misconception is about wiping out each other - wars are faught for a reason - at least we do it for a reason. During wars we normally avoid civilian areas and civilian casualties (other than in the fog of war) and fight only with the military or in the air or sea. So attacking any major civilian city is out of question. This is most likely followed by both the forces.
> When the criteria is winning the war and achieving the objectives then where is the question of killing civilians? and if PaK head honchos attacks a civilian city against a military confrontation then that would be suicidal.
> 4 minutes ago #492



There is no misconception in Pakistanis about role of India in creating Bangladesh and next war which I see coming due to water issue created by India and it was predicted by World bank study in late 90s will be MAD which India is trying to avoid by destabilizing Pakistan from within, building Missile defense shield and implementing CSD type doctrine.

@acid rain due to international pressure and UN charter India was not able to absorb Bangladesh.


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## acid rain

Basel said:


> There is no misconception in Pakistanis about role of India in creating Bangladesh and next war which I see coming due to water issue created by India and it was predicted by World bank study in late 90s will be MAD which India is trying to avoid by destabilizing Pakistan from within, building Missile defense shield and implementing CSD type doctrine.
> 
> @acid rain due to international pressure and UN charter India was not able to absorb Bangladesh.



If we could withstand the international pressure to free bangladesh, we could have done it if we wanted to annex it as well. That wasnt the objective at all - we are in the process of granting 10000 acres of our own land to the bangladeshis. We have given them a few enclaves before as well. So where is the greed for the land? dont bring in kashmir here because as it is the our discussion has gone offtopic and it will only get messier.

dont go by world bank or any other western propaganda because their ulterior motive is our nukes and create a fear pychosis.

We have sane leaders on both ends who would not press the nuclear trigger for small conflicts.

IWT is very favourable to pakistan but still India has diligently followed it even during our wars...ever wondered why? compared to china who outrightly refuses to get into any agreements with lower reparian states in water sharing. We prefer taking our disputes to international courts because we do not want Pakistan to feel cheated out of its water. Any decision by international courts are followed by India to the tee. So where is the question of war over water? if Pakistan desires war over it then it should first cancel the IWT and then we can go to war.

Another misconception is that India is scared of a war with Pakistan. That is not the case, and we do not have any objectives to achieve against Pakistan anymore to get into a Pak induced war...thats it. 

CSD is a more logistical based doctrine to ensure faster mobilization of troops.

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## Basel

acid rain said:


> If we could withstand the international pressure to free bangladesh, we could have done it if we wanted to annex it as well. That wasnt the objective at all - we are in the process of granting 10000 acres of our own land to the bangladeshis. We have given them a few enclaves before as well. So where is the greed for the land? dont bring in kashmir here because as it is the our discussion has gone offtopic and it will only get messier.
> dont go by world bank or any other western propaganda because their ulterior motive is our nukes and create a fear pychosis.
> We have sane leaders on both ends who would not press the nuclear trigger for small conflicts.
> IWT is very favourable to pakistan but still India has diligently followed it even during our wars...ever wondered why? compared to china who outrightly refuses to get into any agreements with lower reparian states in water sharing. We prefer taking our disputes to international courts because we do not want Pakistan to feel cheated out of its water. Any decision by international courts are followed by India to the tee. So where is the question of war over water? if Pakistan desires war over it then it should first cancel the IWT and then we can go to war.
> Another misconception is that India is scared of a war with Pakistan. That is not the case, and we do not have any objectives to achieve against Pakistan anymore to get into a Pak induced war...thats it.
> CSD is a more logistical based doctrine to ensure faster mobilization of troops.



Do you know since creation of UN no country can adsorb captured territory without the will of ppl of that land, and I have heard from Bangladeshis that when they realized that Mujeeb will merge them with India they went against him and that was the reason he was killed.

IWT was from start in favor of India and Pakistan had no other choice to accept it, India is harming us from our creation, India put more debt on us then resources were allocated at time of independence, India delayed transfer of assets and man power so Pakistan could suffer, what not India have done since Independence to put Pakistan in trouble and you think we are fools to understand situation.

A person like M.A. Jinnah who never wanted partition of India had to change his thinking after doing whatever he could to convince Congress (Hindus majority) leadership to give rights / autonomy to Muslims in their majority parts within one India, they decline it why?? have you studied how and why Pakistan was created?? what really went wrong which lead to creation of Pakistan?? its the mentality of Majority of united India and its leadership which lead to it, animosity of India only grows after the creation of Pakistan which Indian leadership never accepted from heart.

Sorry for being off topic of thread.


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## JayAtl

Capt.Popeye said:


> NOPE, this is 2013; but a phallic symbol does not become a much-hyped *"Carrier Killer"* because of that.
> As I said earlier; take a look at the explanation offered by @Oscar; if the questions that I raised are unable to provoke you to think further.
> 
> Another simple-minded Farmer John appears.
> ASBM--------indeed?



One thing missing from this entire equation is when ( timing) will the A/c be deployed. geographically speaking , PN 's assets are very close to India and as such India will destroy much of PN's capability before an A/C is anywhere near that theater.

i.e. at first the attacks from the Indian side will be to destroy radar and missile sites and Naval installation sites, then will have complete control over the sky some miles into the country from shore. A counter attack on an A/c will be impossible, even w/ a carrier killer fantasy.

Pakistan cannot have every asset in every place and what they have to protect their PN, is far too less to avoid being overwhelmed. Their Frigates and ships more than 50% will be destroyed while being at or near their naval ports. All this is because of the proximity and air power the indians posses. the submarines are sitting ducks with P8I and other anti submarine assets.

This is why PAK military doctrine calls for no substantial investments in PN. They know it is a losing proposition and one that will take enormous losses - next to impossible to protect. in fact if you read a real analysis of a full out" conventional" war with paksitan. It has just enough assets to hold off indian side for 8 days before being over run.

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## acid rain

Basel said:


> Do you know since creation of UN no country can adsorb captured territory without the will of ppl of that land, and I have heard from Bangladeshis that when they realized that Mujeeb will merge them with India they went against him and that was the reason he was killed.
> 
> IWT was from start in favor of India and Pakistan had no other choice to accept it, India is harming us from our creation, India put more debt on us then resources were allocated at time of independence, India delayed transfer of assets and man power so Pakistan could suffer, what not India have done since Independence to put Pakistan in trouble and you think we are fools to understand situation.
> 
> A person like M.A. Jinnah who never wanted partition of India had to change his thinking after doing whatever he could to convince Congress (Hindus majority) leadership to give rights / autonomy to Muslims in their majority parts within one India, they decline it why?? have you studied how and why Pakistan was created?? what really went wrong which lead to creation of Pakistan?? its the mentality of Majority of united India and its leadership which lead to it, animosity of India only grows after the creation of Pakistan which Indian leadership never accepted from heart.
> 
> Sorry for being off topic of thread.



1st misconception: India was not forced to sign the IWT, Pakistan doesnt have the wherewithal to get anything like the IWT signed from India if we do not want to give it in the first place. I cited the example of china, we could have refused outright and nobody could have done anything about it.


2nd miscoception: Mujib wanted to merge with India - pls come up with relevant proof of this claim. India did not have inclination towards annexing bangladesh.

3rd misconception: Indian leaders (othe than Gandhi, Maulana Azad) were against partition. Sardar and Nehru knew that autonomous region concept will not work and cause trouble in the long run - case in point your Northern autonomous regions where you have no writ.


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## Basel

@acid rain this discussion will not end we will continue to argue with each other and will derail this thread, for this kind of discussion with sane ppl we may have separate thread.


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## illusion8

Xracer said:


> Didn't attack India in the First Place ever and i think u that know better than me.okay as u say lets not ruin this Thread



Sorry to rain on your picnic :

1. BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline
India and Pakistan first went to war in October 1947 *after Pakistan supported a Muslim insurgency in Kashmir.*

2. [url="http://www.criterion-quarterly.com/operation-gibraltar%E2%80%94an-unmitigated-disaster/"]Operation Gibraltar—An Unmitigated Disaster? | Criterion[/URL]
(Operation Gibraltar was the code name given to the *clandestine raids carried out in Indian-Held Kashmir (IHK) in July/August 1965, which became the immediate cause of the Pakistan-India War in September.*

3. Operation Grand Slam: The Story of Pakistan's Failure to Capture Kashmir in 1965.
*'Operation Grand slam’ is synonymous with the Pakistan plan to invade Kashmir in 1965.* At that time the Pakistan army with its newly inducted Patton tanks was confident of victory. The plan was hatched at GHQ in Rawalpindi and the Pak top brass had honed the plan to minute detail.

4. Operation Chengiz Khan - Military:
*Operation Chengiz Khan* was the code name assigned to *the pre-emptive strikes carried out by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) on the forward airbases and radarinstallations of the Indian Air Force (IAF) on the evening of 3 December 1971,* and marked the formal initiation of hostilities of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.

5. 1999 Kargil Conflict
The 1999 Kargil War took place between May 8, *when Pakistani forces and Kashmiri militants were detected atop the Kargil ridges and July 14 *when both sides had essentially ceased their military operations. It is believed that the planning for the operation, by Pakistan, may have occurred about as early as the autumn of 1998.

Doesn't look like we initiated any wars.

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## Khaqan Humayun

Capt.Popeye said:


> *ARREY MIYAN; TUM KEHNA KYA CHAHTEY HO ?*


This is an answer to a loyal Indian from a Loyal Muslim of Pakistan. He said Hindustan is not only a Hindu country so some lines are the answer of that and He was talking about Navy some line are answer About Navy what you read is Mixture of my 2answers.


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## Xracer

illusion8 said:


> Sorry to rain on your picnic :
> 
> 1. BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline
> India and Pakistan first went to war in October 1947 *after Pakistan supported a Muslim insurgency in Kashmir.*
> 
> 2. Operation Gibraltar—An Unmitigated Disaster? | Criterion
> (Operation Gibraltar was the code name given to the *clandestine raids carried out in Indian-Held Kashmir (IHK) in July/August 1965, which became the immediate cause of the Pakistan-India War in September.*
> 
> 3. Operation Grand Slam: The Story of Pakistan's Failure to Capture Kashmir in 1965.
> *'Operation Grand slam’ is synonymous with the Pakistan plan to invade Kashmir in 1965.* At that time the Pakistan army with its newly inducted Patton tanks was confident of victory. The plan was hatched at GHQ in Rawalpindi and the Pak top brass had honed the plan to minute detail.
> 
> 4. Operation Chengiz Khan - Military:
> *Operation Chengiz Khan* was the code name assigned to *the pre-emptive strikes carried out by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) on the forward airbases and radarinstallations of the Indian Air Force (IAF) on the evening of 3 December 1971,* and marked the formal initiation of hostilities of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.
> 
> 5. 1999 Kargil Conflict
> The 1999 Kargil War took place between May 8, *when Pakistani forces and Kashmiri militants were detected atop the Kargil ridges and July 14 *when both sides had essentially ceased their military operations. It is believed that the planning for the operation, by Pakistan, may have occurred about as early as the autumn of 1998.
> 
> Doesn't look like we initiated any wars.


nahhhhhhh i dont need these links i know cause i am a Pakistani you started first with *Kashmir*. i dont trust these Links and those shitttty crrrrappy aaasssss anti pakistani authors and there baseless Articles we all know Your Media and Western Propaganda.
and as far as kashmir issue remain i dont think we can sit in peace


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This threat I mean thread should be delete it appears to be in wrong section perhaps it should be moved to Indian side of forum

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## SrNair

Basel said:


> She did not care about world opinion, because if she does have cared about it she had stopped assault on Dhaka, She even wanted to finish west Pakistan but at that time US was ready to go at war to save west Pakistan and India even today is in no position to fight US. I have posted links to clarify the minds of those Indians who think that US would have not gone to war with them to save west Pakistan, do u know they have threatened USSR for war if India entered west Pakistan after creating Bangladesh. You ppl just clamming about fleet encounters which do happened but things changed for US when Bangladesh was created and west Pakistan was in danger.



So you still believe US?Pathetic.It is pakistan that suffered all this last 13 years due to US WOT.How can you trust a country like that ?Its all your citizens suffered and your economy perished ,your leadership is completely corrupted by US aid .India has not even a chance against even in the diplomatic level at that time.But we have USSR.Noone cant trust USA.But we can trust USSR.But like our minister kamal nath said Times changed ,America changed and India also changed.If US turn against us no one will support ,in that case only country that support US is Pakistan.Now India can stand up against US.we dont need anyone support this time.For US they have only one aim how to destroy another country for their own prosperity and If that cause a damage to US land then they will withdraw ,that was happened in 1971.It is due to Indira Gandhi Pakistan is still alive

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## Janmejay

captain steel said:


> and what about ur day dreaming mind of having an aircraft carrier, ruk AC ki spelling toh bata aur haan copy mat karna am an IT expert i'll get to know.......
> 
> 
> sorry USA but hahahahaha they dont have any potential system to launch missiles beyond 2500 km and if they some how launch though they would open the second most bloodiest front in the history of war "I would like to see our national flag on their capital karachi"....


I suggest you to immediately modify your post....


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## MilSpec

Basel said:


> India can't win a war against Pakistan and ppl are not afraid of India too, its our politicians and corrupt system who is destroying us and allowing other to play proxy war here, Pakistan needs one true leader who can take it away from this situation because we are full of resources which many countries dream, we can be next KSA in terms of gas and oil, with gold, silver and copper reserves and so many other things which are buried in land of Pakistan.
> 
> Therefore if anyone think it will take decades to get Pakistan's economy on track even if we have situation under control in country and everything in right track, then he is living fool heaven, even in this worst situation US firms are itching to work here in oil and gas exploration.


What has all of this to do with IAC and INS Vikramaditya?


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## illusion8

Xracer said:


> nahhhhhhh i dont need these links i know cause i am a Pakistani



Cannot help you there if you being a "Pakistani" knows better than Pakistani or international historians and observers. 


> you started first with *Kashmir*.



The point is if you would have read the link you would have got some education that it was "Pakistan" who sent in Muslim insurgents that forced accession of Kashmir by Raja Hari Singh and Indian forces had to move in.



> i dont trust these Links and those shitttty crrrrappy aaasssss anti pakistani authors and there baseless Articles we all know Your Media and Western Propaganda.



The precise reason why I gave you only Pakistani and neutral sources.



> and as far as kashmir issue remain i dont think we can sit in peace



Good to know that the "monkey trap" is still active.

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## Janmejay

captain steel said:


> i like the way u cropped my message but that is for pakistan and yes befor USA was hahahah in my earlier post check it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bhai that was for pakistan saying sorry to USA because all their nukes have been captured or given by pakistan to taliban......pakistan has a range of 2500km not for USA they have the range of 12000km,no one messes with usa.


I understood everything but you will be banned if a moderator sees that line........

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## GURU DUTT

captain steel said:


> 1.)do u really think that ur 500000+ soldiers can be used in a single war that to with indian army 1.3million plus double of urs
> 2.)do u really have guts to face our indian navy which is most powerful navy in the world.
> 3.)do u have the courage to face our IAF's brunt with more than 300+bombers and 500+fighters
> now dont tell me pakistan will use their special forces "taliban and al-kaida" to stop the mighty indian army.if we started a full fleged war, then pakistan will face deaths of innocent pakistani peoples and india wont hesitate this tym.......because we are indians,hindustani,as well as bharatwasi.


hey captain why wasting your energy on them they know the bottom line very vell already (they can never take on india in a full fleged war & thats why there millitarry from day one used proxies)

now the thing is thread is about Indian ACCs and CBGs well they also happen to know that we dont need such hardware to destroy all there naval armda in there ports/naval baseseven before they come owt in open to fight (deu to at least 3 sqds of MKI & 3 Sqds of naval Jags & a couple of P8is all land based in jaiselmer, baroda and pune)

what i dont understand is pakistani fetish to have symbolick victories when they know at the end of day there going to loose the war against india...... leave them bro they will always denay there shortcomings ...Good luck


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## Janmejay

captain steel said:


> how to edit it????
> people my five number button key is not fuctional so please forgive me for any mistakes.....


you will see a button in bottom left of your post.....

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## HariPrasad

Some Pakistani Members stated in the thread that Viky is without any anti missile protection. Let me inform them that LRSAM integration work has begun on some Indian Naval warships. 


Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests

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## HariPrasad

I have not seen Video. May be some shoulder fire missiles of russia but hardly usefull against some arial threat except Choppers which will never come too close.


LRSAM

*New Delhi:* The new generation long-range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) being primarily developed for the Indian Navy ships is now heading for the trials on an Indian naval ship. The radars and the support equipment is being integrated on a ship said an official source, who refused to name the ship.

In January 2006, India and Israel had signed a $350m agreement to co-develop the LR-SAM. The missile when developed, is projected to have a range of 70 km and weighing around 275 kg. The SAM’s length is about 4.5m, diameter 0.54m, wingspan 0.94m and can achieve Mach 2 speeds. Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) are the lead developers of the missile.

Some technologies are absolutely new with no parallels in the world and it took time to realise them, said the official when quizzed over the delays. Once the system is deployed, it will be a unique system in its class, he said. The front end of the missile including seeker is from IAI and the back end like including propulsion, actuators and others are ours, he said. Speaking on Indian components on the missile, the official said that the technologies have been perfected and have been derived from other missile projects.

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## Basel

captain steel said:


> and u think we will destroy the dragon so that shit USA will use IOR as their new playground, look we dont have to much differences with china as india is chinas 2 most preferable place to do business, and u know they will be having over 43.5billion $ deals with india in coming years i dont think so they would destroy their potential customers.we are not that weak to retaliate the chinese incursions we are just to frank let chinese dragon play in our backyard.



China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh & Sri Lanka combine have more than quarter of world's population if we resolve our issues peacefully and do justice while resolving the issues for greater good of future then this region can become a world power which can shape world events and even dictate MNCs how to do business with us. India as big neighbor of Pakistan & other small countries should take initiative to do that and be kind to these nation by giving them disputed areas, in return an EU type set between countries can be created in which may bring China in it in future. If this kind of set up ever created India will be its biggest beneficiary because it will make India in Class of Ex-USSR due to support of other countries and this region may be able to lead the world same as now US or EU is doing.


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## Xracer

captain steel said:


> 1.)do u really think that ur 500000+ soldiers can be used in a single war that to with indian army 1.3million plus double of urs
> 2.)do u really have guts to face our indian navy which is 5 most powerful navy in the world.
> 3.)do u have the courage to face our IAF's brunt with more than 300+bombers and 500+fighters
> now dont tell me pakistan will use their special forces "taliban and al-kaida" to stop the mighty indian army.if we started a full fleged war, then pakistan will face deaths of innocent pakistani peoples and india wont hesitate this tym.......because we are indians,hindustani,as well as bharatwasi.
> 
> 
> people my five number button key is not fuctional so please forgive me for any mistakes.....


okay if u think that lets start war plus we all know who is Better and what capabilities we have no need to tell me if we will face deaths of innocent pakistani peoples and india wont hesitate this tym.
we wont either i think u forgot we make nukes just and just for uuuuuuu. hmmmm am i i on indian forum hmmm no so why are uuuuuu



illusion8 said:


> Cannot help you there if you being a "Pakistani" knows better than Pakistani or international historians and observers.
> 
> 
> The point is if you would have read the link you would have got some education that it was "Pakistan" who sent in Muslim insurgents that forced accession of Kashmir by Raja Hari Singh and Indian forces had to move in.
> 
> 
> 
> The precise reason why I gave you only Pakistani and neutral sources.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know that the "monkey trap" is still active.


I dont have that much Brain Power trying to justify myself and trying to tell u whats wrong and whats right.Camel cannot ever sit in Autoo rickshaw

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## Shadow_Hunter

Xracer said:


> I dont have that much Brain.



We all know that. But whats your point?


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## Basel

captain steel said:


> I totaly agree with u brother but to make this possible we need to resolve our issues over "kASHMIR".I like ur optimistic thinking but pakistani military should also think about it, it could be a very big dicision which will lead to a region which will become so powerful that even true faces of EU AND USA would emerge in front of everyone and a new dawn will start "I WISH TO LIVE TILL THAT DAY" i really want to see our real brotherhood with pakistan and china.



Our military is not fool they will not oppose any solution which favors our interest and resolve Kashmir issue peacefully with justice.

Two things can happen 1) Indian can grant remaining Kashmir to Pakistan in return of soft border and demilitarization of borders OR 2) India and Pakistan allow autonomy to Kashmir under joint agreement and both pull out troops declaring it no military area, but for that they both have to go long way.

EU type system can be disscussed and under that umbrella many concessions can be given by both sides. But before doing any of the above they must work to create confidence between each other and India as big country must have courage and sincerity to come forward and build confidence.

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## Xracer

captain steel said:


> koi baat nahi keep ur nukes ready we have our AD ready, To whome u will target DELHI aur MUMBAI?????AUR chennai i dont give a DAMN!!!!!!! STFU!!!!!and get lost prepare for a war i"LL tell MOD for further stats and the rest lies in the future.our flag will be held high in the pakistan air space inshah-allaha........jai hind
> 
> 
> I totaly agree with u brother but to make this possible we need to resolve our issues over "kASHMIR".I like ur optimistic thinking but pakistani military should also think about it, it could be a very big dicision which will lead to a region which will become so powerful that even true faces of EU AND USA would emerge in front of everyone and a new dawn will start "I WISH TO LIVE TILL THAT DAY" i really want to see our real brotherhood with pakistan and china.


why say inshallah Don't u believe in your Baghwan  did we Muslims said your baghwan will give us victory your your info we more nuke than u we can pretty much cover all of your all of your cities again i will say hum toh Shaheed hn gaye sanam tum ko bi lay doodbay gaye

Pak has more nuclear weapons than India: Report | NDTV.com
and in 2nd i agree with u it will be a very big dicision i toooo I WISH TO LIVE TILL THAT DAY" i really want to see Kashmirr a Freee State where both Indians and Pakistanis are allowed go for Tourism that will really sort all of our problems out
and yes EU AND USA Dont want peca in our region they Pakistan and India to Fight for ever



Shadow_Hunter said:


> We all know that. But whats your point?


my point is that Bhains ke aage _been bajana aur app Ko samjna ek cheez hyyyy_


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## Xracer

captain steel said:


> Do u really think in that way bro for me allah=shivji=jesus=bhuddha=guru gobind singh and the list goes on for me but, u have proven me wrong once again that even pakistanis respect all religion but wrong!!!!!, it is only our INDIA which has such a high tolerence for such diversity.......bhaijaan mulk toh isaano ne banaye hai magar yeah bhi yaad rakhna ki marne ke baad uper wale ko bhi apna charaha dikhana hai so please dont distribute gods too, for me GOD=generator-oraganiser-destroyer.


Bhai you are right in your theory i am right in mine i dont believe in any thing expect Allah but *i Respect your Religion and your Events*. every one has his own right to choose his Religion.India does have high tolerence for such diversity.


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## Xracer

captain steel said:


> have u seen allah?????i have not seen anyone except for my parents, for me they are everything and about god that is one spritual power which governs the whole world i respect that GOD.


yes lets not go further with this and stay on topic


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## GURU DUTT

thing is pakistan wants to settle kashmir cause as it controls there 'juglar viens' = Rivers and india knows this and thats the main reason they also went on with 'operation meghdoot' and caputred 'siachin glacier' 
now the thing is pakistan is in no postion to challenge india on any format and forum and thats why they keep on looking for 'help' & 'brotherli relations' with big powers ...funny thing is all powers know this and just 'use and throw' pakistan after there job is done ..first it was UK , then came USA & saudi combo today its saudi & china combo but ground reality is getting worse in land of the pure

now they need is money and latest tech to keep india getting adventurous till now they managed but with india getting richer and stronger by the day and china leaning towards india they are confused(pakistan)

thread is about indian CBGs & ACCs which are now radically changing the power dynamicks of south asia and the void will keep on increasing 

funny thing is paksiatn has no answer to anything india is putting one table one after the another and soon it will be indian hegemony in south asia which china will ignoare as it is already facing heat on its eastern borders 

even still good luck pakistan

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## GURU DUTT

captain steel said:


> and bhai log dont get insecure as these carriers are adding strength to asia!!!!! as far as india is concerened aircaft carrier will protect india and if required will also protect pakistan and bangladesh too, in case of allied invasion........so be happy.that day when india china russia and pakistan will have more carriers than usa alone then we will say that asia has become strong!!!!!
> 
> 
> YES OFFCOURSE!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this type of CBG would be great for vicky until LRSAM is fitted on it.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 carrier battlegroup......hope india would achieve it till 2017
> 
> 
> bhai i agree with u but as we are adding carriers to our fleet, it also increasing powers of asian continent as far as 6 CBG of indian navy are concerned this will be achieved by 2030


well brother thing is we dont need to use any of owr CBGs for naval blokade of Karachi and gadawar ports as owr army is very capable of launching a blitkrieg type operation from runn of kutch which is not even 100 miles away from karachi (there life line) 

+ there naval ships will be trageted by small and very fast but stealthy & leathel missile boats & other small naval vessels backed by P8is to keep there subs away from action backed again by 3 sqads each of MKIs, Navalised jags & Mig 21 bisons as back up based inbaroda , jaiselmer & pune 

while the rest of PAF and its missile assets will be taken owt by owr 8 other air bases anlong the indo pak border area

while china will be kept on hold by air bases in andaman and nicobar backed by two floating air bases / ACCs /CBGs (Vikrmaditys & Viraat ) while Vikrant will be kept as back up


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## Xracer

GURU DUTT said:


> thing is pakistan wants to settle kashmir cause as it controls there 'juglar viens' = Rivers and india knows this and thats the main reason they also went on with 'operation meghdoot' and caputred 'siachin glacier'


Your are right in this part
But wrong in This Part


GURU DUTT said:


> now the thing is pakistan is in no postion to challenge india on any format and forum and thats why they keep on looking for 'help' & 'brotherli relations' with big powers ...funny thing is all powers know this and just 'use and throw' pakistan after there job is done ..first it was UK , then came USA & saudi combo today its saudi & china combo but ground reality is getting worse in land of the pure
> 
> now they need is money and latest tech to keep india getting adventurous till now they managed but with india getting richer and stronger by the day and china leaning towards india they are confused(pakistan)
> 
> thread is about indian CBGs & ACCs which are now radically changing the power dynamicks of south asia and the void will keep on increasing
> 
> funny thing is paksiatn has no answer to anything india is putting one table one after the another and soon it will be indian hegemony in south asia which china will ignoare as it is already facing heat on its eastern borders


we just wanna keep our country safe from dirty hands I know the situation in Pakistan is a lil More Rough if we look in the past but that because of War on terrorism and corrupt Politicians.i think till 2001 you were not in a position to say Pakistan cannot be a Asian Tiger but every one who thinks Pakistan is going Down forget it your are wrong dont beleive on what u Here come here in Pakistan And see u will be just like that after Seeing the Development and Peace this news channels are just fuuuccckkking around and making TRP u wana know what the real thing going in waziristan and tribal areas no one even from pakistan has permission to go their expect army god know whats cooking there
sorry for this last post i wont be ooff topic again


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## GURU DUTT

Xracer said:


> Your are right in this part
> But wrong in This Part
> 
> we just wanna keep our country safe from dirty hands I know the situation in Pakistan is a lil More Rough if we look in the past but that because of War on terrorism and corrupt Politicians.i think till 2001 you were not in a position to say Pakistan cannot be a Asian Tiger but every one who thinks Pakistan is going Down forget it your are wrong dont beleive on what u Here come here in Pakistan And see u will be just like that after Seeing the Development and Peace this news channels are just fuuuccckkking around and making TRP u wana what the real thing going in waziristan and tribal areas no one even from pakistan has permission to go their expect army god know whats cooking there


well bhai thing is "economy" and in this age wars are fought by money power and latest etch (for which you need money agin)

and not to forget your beurocracy, political elite and police & justice system is corrupt to bone while 85% of your population is held hostage by crazy mullahs and greedy blood sucking feudals so there is no chance of pakistani economy getting into shape in near future 

as for pakistan's security well it has niether the latest cutting edge tech support nor the money power to buy it from best sources (what india does get any way from israel , france , russia & USA) your onli hope is ....

"if china comes and fights your war with india"

now the power dynamicks are changing very fast but your not adapting to the rather your still carrying that cold war era baggae and cant let it off your backs as your national identity and mindset is "to punish india in any possible way" and for that your own creations (so called trategick assets tabilqui jamats which are becoming your biggest stumbling blocks) and if that wasnt enof USA is in no mood to give your armed forces any free lunches

so please care to tell me brother how will pakistan chalenge india


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## HariPrasad

Xracer said:


> why say inshallah Don't u believe in your Baghwan did we Muslims said your baghwan will give us victory your your info we more nuke than u we can pretty much cover all of your all of your cities again i will say hum toh Shaheed hn gaye sanam tum ko bi lay doodbay gaye



Our Bhagawan is different from the God of other sects.Our Bhagwan says that you will be victorious if and only if you choose the path of truth and not otherwise. Our god put a condition to victory and do not bless us unconditionally. 

When we bomb your camps in Kargil war , you had the Nuclear weapons and you had planes as well. Both of your assets failed to protect your supply camp and your soldiers and officers incharge.


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## trident2010

As it is repeated over and over that India doesn't need aircraft carrier for PN. Its just an overkill. We need ACCs for our power projections in other parts of Indian ocean which is far from Indian mainland.


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## Xracer

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai thing is "economy" and in this age wars are fought by money power and latest etch (for which you need money agin)
> 
> and not to forget your beurocracy, political elite and police & justice system is corrupt to bone while 85% of your population is held hostage by crazy mullahs and greedy blood sucking feudals so there is no chance of pakistani economy getting into shape in near future
> 
> as for pakistan's security well it has niether the latest cutting edge tech support nor the money power to buy it from best sources (what india does get any way from israel , france , russia & USA) your onli hope is ....
> 
> "if china comes and fights your war with india"
> 
> now the power dynamicks are changing very fast but your not adapting to the rather your still carrying that cold war era baggae and cant let it off your backs as your national identity and mindset is "to punish india in any possible way" and for that your own creations (so called trategick assets tabilqui jamats which are becoming your biggest stumbling blocks) and if that wasnt enof USA is in no mood to give your armed forces any free lunches
> 
> so please care to tell me brother how will pakistan chalenge india


you thinks we are still carrying that cold war era baggae and cant let it off your backs as your national identity and mindset is "to punish india in any possible way but we aren't
but the point is thats what u thinks army does not thinks like this
the thing is with Muslims and Pakistani whenever an enemy comes they forgot all thing get into defending their own country well i am not in a position to justify my self right now lets wait till usa withdrew from AFG and Let Every one become free u know what i am talking about 



HariPrasad said:


> Our Bhagawan is different from the God of other sects.Our Bhagwan says that you will be victorious if and only if you choose the path of truth and not otherwise. Our god put a condition to victory and do not bless us unconditionally.
> 
> When we bomb your camps in Kargil war , you had the Nuclear weapons and you had planes as well. Both of your assets failed to protect your supply camp and your soldiers and officers incharge.


well bro thats a different Story.we all loses something sometimes but that doesn't mean we can't win does it
as for Bhagawan and gods lets not involve them into this i already said that


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## GURU DUTT

Xracer said:


> you thinks we are still carrying that cold war era baggae and cant let it off your backs as your national identity and mindset is "to punish india in any possible way but we aren't
> but the point is thats what u thinks army does not thinks like this
> *the thing is with Muslims and Pakistani whenever an enemy comes they forgot all thing get into defending their own country well i am not in a position to justify my self right now lets wait till usa withdrew from AFG and Let Every one become free u know what i am talking about *


well bhai aap bhi muhib ul watan ho aur mai bhee 

two things 

1. India will never launch an coventional attack to occupy pakistan ... period 

2. USA will never leave afghanistan as it is very importand deu to treade with central asia 

now indias arms build up are for defensive purpose and not offensive and china+ shouth asia have the 50% of world population hence a very big market copulled by its location on gates of next big ecomony puch/trade route to oil rich central asia india , china , usa wants it real bad for there economick growth respectivelli

but pakistan is prooving to be too stubborn and stupid for not tapping the true potential and is keeping on with its obsession to ennex kashmir and teach india a lesson at all costs while it can make billions of dollars if it behaves in a more mature manner and let the trade & properity flow in this sector

so india will not go on offensive and pakistan will not any one use its land for trade guess what will be future course of action of the other two bigger powers in the game so as pakistan agrees to open up ....good luck


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## HariPrasad

Xracer said:


> as for Bhagawan and gods lets not involve them into this i already said that




That is fine but you did that. I just responded.


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## Xracer

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai aap bhi muhib ul watan ho aur mai bhee
> 
> two things
> 
> 1. India will never launch an coventional attack to occupy pakistan ... period
> 
> 2. USA will never leave afghanistan as it is very importand deu to treade with central asia
> 
> now indias arms build up are for defensive purpose and not offensive and china+ shouth asia have the 50% of world population hence a very big market copulled by its location on gates of next big ecomony puch/trade route to oil rich central asia india , china , usa wants it real bad for there economick growth respectivelli
> 
> but pakistan is prooving to be too stubborn and stupid for not tapping the true potential and is keeping on with its obsession to ennex kashmir and teach india a lesson at all costs while it can make billions of dollars if it behaves in a more mature manner and let the trade & properity flow in this sector
> 
> so india will not go on offensive and pakistan will not any one use its land for trade guess what will be future course of action of the other two bigger powers in the game so as pakistan agrees to open up ....good luck


okay Janab I didnt know



HariPrasad said:


> That is fine but you did that. I just responded.


Okay no hard feeling mate

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## HariPrasad

Xracer said:


> Okay no hard feeling mate




Thanks


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## Basel

captain steel said:


> i like the second solution but u know kashmir is indias "DIAMOND CROWN" it is my personal view that people should decide to which country they want to join......as people have full right but the games pakistan played in 1965 as well as 1971 proved the tables turned down....this would be resolved only by military power "I HAVE NO REGRETS BRO, SORRY BUT THIS IS THE THIRD WAY"



Blaming is the easiest thing a person can do and ppl on both countries do that frequently, in response to your emotional post I could have done the same, but its useless, and 1971 war was not fought on Kashmir issue.

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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> Blaming is the easiest thing a person can do and ppl on both countries do that frequently, in response to your emotional post I could have done the same, but its useless, and 1971 war was not fought on Kashmir issue.


so what is your opinion what is pakistan doing to get its water resources intackt and manging them well to creat a new green revolution and how is it going to solidify its econmy to face the future anslught mind you india is pakistans last worry thing is by looking at your past and judging your present theatricks i guess the time of implossions of pakistan is about to start get your house in order other wise who knows will there be a country to defend for so called army of fort of islam ....good luck bro


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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> so what is your opinion what is pakistan doing to get its water resources intackt and manging them well to creat a new green revolution and how is it going to solidify its econmy to face the future anslught mind you india is pakistans last worry thing is by looking at your past and judging your present theatricks i guess the time of implossions of pakistan is about to start get your house in order other wise who knows will there be a country to defend for so called army of fort of islam ....good luck bro



Again in your post emotions can be seen, but what I worry about is that India and Pakistan can go on war for water, and that might be our last war. India for now is not number one direct threat to Pakistan but it is now biggest indirect threat as Indian money is getting ever where to get its interest achieved. Indian is pouring money so systematically in Pakistan that its not possible in these condition to stop it, they are using our media and even Indian money is involved in club cricked level here, this show the Indian intentions to weaken Pakistan from inside and from outside they are creating problems like blocking our water, Indian media with now some Pakistani Media has nearly brain washed our youth, they don't know our heroes but remember Indian actresses and actors.


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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> Again in your post emotions can be seen, but what I worry about is that India and Pakistan can go on war for water, and that might be our last war. India for now is not number one direct threat to Pakistan but it is now biggest indirect threat as Indian money is getting ever where to get its interest achieved. Indian is pouring money so systematically in Pakistan that its not possible in these condition to stop it, they are using our media and even Indian money is involved in club cricked level here, this show the Indian intentions to weaken Pakistan from inside and from outside they are creating problems like blocking our water, Indian media with now some Pakistani Media has nearly brain washed our youth, they don't know our heroes but remember Indian actresses and actors.


well bro your greedy army genrals started it way back in 1948 and kept on fingring the wound instead of letting it heal its onli now india has started retaliating your establishment no stone unterned to entice the fire of indo - pak hatred ...guess what enof is enof now its payback time from india buckle up for the bumpy ride ahead .... dont worry we wond put fork in the wheel to unsettle your apple cart .... good luck ........ on the serous note ....all these years pak fauj wanted an imagined enemy and now we will give them just that and dont worry we will do full justice to it ..... good luck bro (we are enemies now remeber)


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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> well bro your greedy army genrals started it way back in 1948 and kept on fingring the wound instead of letting it heal its onli now india has started retaliating your establishment no stone unterned to entice the fire of indo - pak hatred ...guess what enof is enof now its payback time from india buckle up for the bumpy ride ahead .... dont worry we wond put fork in the wheel to unsettle your apple cart .... good luck ........ on the serous note ....all these years pak fauj wanted an imagined enemy and now we will give them just that and dont worry we will do full justice to it ..... good luck bro (we are enemies now remeber)



First make your fact right, in 1948 Pakistan Army was not commanded by a Pakistani General and the British general refused to respond to situation, if he had Pakistan would have captured Srinagar at that time. On second part of your post, yes for now India is getting what they want by putting Pakistan in trouble but what Pakistan need is a leader who can bring country on one path like great M.A. Jinnah, and we lack it for now and near future as all are greedy politicians here not true leaders. I some times thank Allah that these politicians are unable to get treasures out which are berried in Pakistani land and US and others are eying them, because if they had got them, they have looted it and finished Pakistan. Still we have hope due to those treasures that true leader will be able to bring us on track, but dont see it in near future. So for now Indians can celebrate as much as they want but times never remains the same.


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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> First make your fact right, in 1948 Pakistan Army was not commanded by a Pakistani General and the British general refused to respond to situation, if he had Pakistan would have captured Srinagar at that time. On second part of your post, yes for now India is getting what they want by putting Pakistan in trouble but what Pakistan need is a leader who can bring country on one path like great M.A. Jinnah, and we lack it for now and near future as all are greedy politicians here not true leaders. I some times thank Allah that these politicians are unable to get treasures out which are berried in Pakistani land and US and others are eying them, because if they had got them, they have looted it and finished Pakistan. Still we have hope due to those treasures that true leader will be able to bring us on track, but dont see it in near future.* So for now Indians can celebrate as much as they want but times never remains the same.*


well bro unlike feudal & central asian and arab decended mard e momin and mard e haq pakistanies we indians / hindus know verry well how is it to live under slavery for almost 1000 years(800 islamick & 200 british) and thats percieslli why we invested in education and health from day one + abolished feudalism and royalty as son as we got independence and went with Nam instead of jumping into some camp but pakistan did opposite and all these evils you see in pakistan today are 'ande-bachhe' of that fedual-millitarry/beurocratick alliance ,....as hassan nisar said once "pakistan is like a child whos both parents died at its birth and its greedy relatives got hold of it which destroyed the childs past present and future "... but may god bless pakistan and give them courage to brake the shakells of this vicious circle ... good luck


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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> well bro unlike feudal & central asian and arab decended mard e momin and mard e haq pakistanies we indians / hindus know verry well how is it to live under slavery for almost 1000 years(800 islamick & 200 british) and thats percieslli why we invested in education and health from day one + abolished feudalism and royalty as son as we got independence and went with Nam instead of jumping into some camp but pakistan did opposite and all these evils you see in pakistan today are 'ande-bachhe' of that fedual-millitarry/beurocratick alliance ,....as hassan nisar said once "pakistan is like a child whos both parents died at its birth and its greedy relatives got hold of it which destroyed the childs past present and future "... but may god bless pakistan and give them courage to brake the shakells of this vicious circle ... good luck



I believe we should have learn from world even we have to from India how to make our home in good condition. Our first five year development plan was taken by South Koreans and where they now by implementing it and evolving it as per their needs and where we are.

on topic:

In coming years IN will be biggest force in Indian Ocean after USN until China decide to come in to play.

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## GURU DUTT

Basel said:


> I believe we should have learn from world even we have to from India how to make our home in good condition. Our first five year development plan was taken by South Koreans and where they now by implementing it and evolving it as per their needs and where we are.
> 
> on topic:
> 
> *In coming years IN will be biggest force in Indian Ocean after USN until China decide to come in to play.*


thats the point i was trying to make bro ... well IN is gearing up for the chinese might and doing it since 1962 and thats pricielli why chinese could not gather courage as they know this time it will be tto messy and way too much gorry than they can ever take 

and dont worry for china to come into indian ocean they need first to cross the mallackka straits and guess what we have owr unsinkable carrier there ... aka ... andaman and nicobar islands which is in process of getting ready to give chines armada a welcome they will never forget

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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> thats the point i was trying to make bro ... well IN is gearing up for the chinese might and doing it since 1962 and thats pricielli why chinese could not gather courage as they know this time it will be tto messy and way too much gorry than they can ever take
> and dont worry for china to come into indian ocean they need first to cross the mallackka straits and guess what we have owr unsinkable carrier there ... aka ... andaman and nicobar islands which is in process of getting ready to give chines armada a welcome they will never forget



Future will be very messy in seas specially in Indian Ocean as many countries will try to get control of it, if u think China will not dare to come to Indian Ocean then its not correct thought, they are preparing for it and IN will be no match for them alone, if they continue the way the are modernizing and expending they will be become 2nd largest and most powerful Navy in the world which will have expeditionary capability similar to USN. There is a reason US is worried about them and encircling them, if they were cowards US would have been not so concerned about them. China have some score to settle with US and they know that. US knows they have challenged them during Korean war when they were nothing compared to US. US have threaten them with nukes many times on many occasions which Chinese have not forgotten.


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## Basel

@captain steel: How about Indian installations hit by fast stealth boats of PN in future, which even don't appear on Indian radar, have you ever heard that?

PN already have these and will get its big bro soon:

YONCA-ONUK JV


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## PoKeMon

UKBengali said:


> BD Navy is no match for Indian Navy but it will not be as bad as you think.
> 
> By the time both your new carriers are ready BD will likely have:
> 
> 1/ 2-3 Modern submarines.
> 2/ 5 frigates with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
> 3/ 6-8 corvettes with modern close range sams and anti-ship missiles - these frigates will have helicopter on board
> 4/ Possibly 2-3 frigates with 24-32 VLS medium range SAMs - Chinese will have them available for countries like BD at an affordable price(200-250 million each) but not sure yet whether BD will purchase though.
> 
> 
> No match for IN but way more powerful than the Indian coast guard!



Any reason you believe good enough to rage an all out war between india and bangladesh?
I dont see any in next 3-4 decades. At max we wont be good friends.

Dont know who made that troll a professional. Knows $hit. Never write like one.


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## Basel

@captain steel: its good for us that you underestimate Pakistan, Thank you.

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## Alpha1

captain steel said:


> with more than 8 brahmos, which is enough to completely wipe of karachi from pakistan


Utterly fanboyish exaggerated statement.
Naval blockade which is quite difficult to establish in the first place , will most likely cross economic threshold which will result in nuclear retalliation


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## Basel

For sea denial role these will be main weapons in coming future of PN when used along with other assets IN will not be able to block supplies/sea routes.

PLA's Type 032 submarine to test JL2 ICBMs: expert｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
.
Force a complete news magazine on National Security


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## MilSpec

captain steel said:


> @UKBengali- ek baar bay of bengal mein vizag toh aa teri na submarine milegi aur na hi tera frigate........


That cracked me up so so hard....

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## Abingdonboy

@Penguin on the AAR front. The IAF will be getting 12 (6+6) A330 MRTTs by ~2017/18 so by 2020-22 should have a fleet of around 18 AARs- still not enough granted. But for sure the IAF will be adding more such assets in the coming years- it has $150 billion USD to be spent over the next 10-15 year burning a hole in its pocket after all. 

Additionally the IN is looking to add their own AAR fleet both shore and carried based. They will most likely be getting their own small fleet of A330 MRTTs by 2020.


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## HariPrasad

captain steel said:


> @UKBengali-our INDIAN coast gaurd has more than 192 main surface combatants thats more than our navy and u say thats enough for our coast guard ek baar bay of bengal mein vizag toh aa teri na submarine milegi aur na hi tera frigate........
> 
> 
> u know we have such boats dovra class but u know taking care of pakistan navy is in the hands of MOD and indian navy, i cant do anything. if anyone of ur boat touches our shore u know our ships are capable of blasting ur boats out of the water while standing in their ports no big deal.....
> 
> this title now sucks close this dicussion friends pakistani's as usual ruined the thread.....




Actually all Pakistani Surface ships are of little use against India. MKI can release a Brahmos 300 KM away and ship will sink in 5 minutes. hypersonic brahmos are coming in next 4 years so as LRCM. I once again say that Except France made subs, No naval vessel posses any threat to IN. In case war breaks out, you will find this PN ships finding safe place to protect themselves.



Basel said:


> For sea denial role these will be main weapons in coming future of PN when used along with other assets IN will not be able to block supplies/sea routes.
> 
> PLA's Type 032 submarine to test JL2 ICBMs: expert｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
> .
> Force a complete news magazine on National Security




JL 2 is a bit away from being operationalized. We will have K4 and K5 by than. They are much potent weapon compare to any JL missile in 6000 KMS of Range.

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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> India can't win a war against Pakistan and ppl are not afraid of India too, its our politicians and corrupt system who is destroying us and allowing other to play proxy war here, Pakistan needs one true leader who can take it away from this situation because we are full of resources which many countries dream, we can be next KSA in terms of gas and oil, with gold, silver and copper reserves and so many other things which are buried in land of Pakistan.
> 
> Therefore if anyone think it will take decades to get Pakistan's economy on track even if we have situation under control in country and everything in right track, then he is living fool heaven, even in this worst situation US firms are itching to work here in oil and gas exploration.




Oil and Gas exploration by foreign company is worst thing to bone. They will simply take away you resource. If you want a real export, export services. Here you do not offer any Physical resource and earn money by simply offering services which is not an exhaustible resource. So concentrate on building proper man power who can do service Job.

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## Basel

HariPrasad said:


> JL 2 is a bit away from being operationalized. We will have K4 and K5 by than. They are much potent weapon compare to any JL missile in 6000 KMS of Range.



PN version will not carry JL-2 initially and it not the need to as US may not like it but they may keep it or JL-1 for back up for severe crisis or situation, PN is more interested in long range CMs and Qing can cary at least 3 JL-2s OR 12 CK-10s with other weapons which includes SAMs too.

As per JL-1s range of 6000kms its is more than enough for India if PN ever had it.

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## HariPrasad

Basel said:


> PN version will not carry JL-2 initially and it not the need to as US may not like it but they may keep it or JL-1 for back up for severe crisis or situation, PN is more interested in long range CMs and Qing can cary at least 3 JL-2s OR 12 CK-10s with other weapons which includes SAMs too.
> 
> As per JL-1s range of 6000kms its is more than enough for India if PN ever had it.




The issue here is why PN wants it against India. India is not situated thousands of KM away from Pakistan. Pakistan has land based missiles to hit India. Even though PN gets it, It is hardly going to make any difference to India in its threat profile Like test of A4, A5 has hardly make any difference in Pakistan's threat profile.


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## Penguin

Abingdonboy said:


> @Penguin on the AAR front. The IAF will be getting 12 (6+6) A330 MRTTs by ~2017/18 so by 2020-22 should have a fleet of around 18 AARs- still not enough granted. But for sure the IAF will be adding more such assets in the coming years- it has $150 billion USD to be spent over the next 10-15 year burning a hole in its pocket after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally the IN is looking to add their own AAR fleet both shore and carried based. They will most likely be getting their own small fleet of A330 MRTTs by 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Il-78 and Airbus 330 MRTT were competing for a global tender floated in 2006 by the Indian defence ministry for *six *refuellers to extend the operating radius of Indian fighter jets. In May 2009, India finally chose the Airbus A330 MRTT over the Il-78. However in January 2010, the government *cancelled *the order citing high cost as the reason, reportedly against the wishes of the Air Force.
> 
> After rebidding, India selected Airbus as its "preferred vendor" in November 2012. In January 2013, it was reported that India had again selected Airbus' A330MRTT as "preferred bid"
Click to expand...

Airbus A330 MRTT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Airbus has been selected as the preferred vendor over Russia’s Ilyushin to supply *six *aerial tankers for the Indian Air Force ...
> The Indian Air Force is using *six *Il-78 midair refuelers bought from Uzbekistan and plans to buy *12 additional* tankers, *which includes the six from Airbus*...
> Defence Ministry sources said it is not yet decided if a fresh tender will be opened to buy the remaining six or if a repeat order will be given to the winner to the current competition.


Airbus Wins Indiaâs Tanker Rebid | Defense News | defensenews.com

So, there are 6 Il-78. There is an intent to buy 12 additional tankers. Of those, 6 are sure to be A330MRTT. It remains to be seen what the other 6 will be.

Since Mig29K can do buddy-refueling using the same UPAZ-1A/M pod used on the standard IL-78, you might see the IL-78 transferred to Navy if Air Force gets sufficient additional A330MRTT. Then again, IIRC the IAF IL-78 are fitted with Isreali fuel transfer systems, and this may or may not mean non-standard pods (not sure. see: TRISHUL: IL-78MKI-90 Detailed). 

I would think any MRTTs would also be used in other roles, which could impose on the number available for tanker duties at any given time.


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## Donatello

HariPrasad said:


> Actually all Pakistani Surface ships are of little use against India. MKI can release a Brahmos 300 KM away and ship will sink in 5 minutes. hypersonic brahmos are coming in next 4 years so as LRCM. I once again say that Except France made subs, No naval vessel posses any threat to IN. In case war breaks out, you will find this PN ships finding safe place to protect themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JL 2 is a bit away from being operationalized. We will have K4 and K5 by than. They are much potent weapon compare to any JL missile in 6000 KMS of Range.




Hello there,

Since Pakistan has access to supersonic anti-ship missiles, Indian ships won't be able to come near Pakistan's coast.


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## Janmejay

Donatello said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Since Pakistan has access to supersonic anti-ship missiles, Indian ships won't be able to come near Pakistan's coast.


And the range and name of those anti-ship cruise missiles are?
Our aircraft carrier does not need to come near pakistan's coastline,it will remain atleast 500 km away from pak's coastline.....

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## Penguin

Ok guys, you've had your fun. Done with the pissing contests. Meaningfull discussion of substantive naval topics only please.

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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> hats the point i was trying to make bro ... well IN is gearing up for the chinese might and doing it since 1962 and thats pricielli why chinese could not gather courage as they know this time it will be tto messy and way too much gorry than they can ever take
> and dont worry for china to come into indian ocean they need first to cross the mallackka straits and guess what we have owr unsinkable carrier there ... aka ... andaman and nicobar islands which is in process of getting ready to give chines armada a welcome they will never forget



You are right but what you have forgotten that Chinese are preparing to face US in future and if they will be able to take care of them then no body else will be able to handle them. They are set be super power in class of US / ex USSR and India will not going to be able to do that as they are now under influence of US and its allies and they don't let anybody go above them.


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## HariPrasad

Donatello said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Since Pakistan has access to supersonic anti-ship missiles, Indian ships won't be able to come near Pakistan's coast.




Most of Indian ships are Stealth and hence invisible. Indian ships have very robust electronic warfare system and anti missile system. Pakistani anti ship capability is shabby. 

How ever you are right that indian ships won't come closer as they do not need to come closer. They can give effect to their mission from a fair degree of distance.


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## Penguin

HariPrasad said:


> *Most of Indian ships are Stealth and hence invisible.* Indian ships have very robust electronic warfare system and anti missile system. Pakistani anti ship capability is shabby.
> 
> How ever you are right that indian ships won't come closer as they do not need to come closer. They can give effect to their mission from a fair degree of distance.



Fatal misconception... 

1. Most IN ships are NOT stealth (Of the main surface combattants, 5x Rasjput/Kashin II, 3x P15, 3x P16, 3x P16A, 4x P25, 4x P25A do not incorporate stealth features in their design. 3+3 Talwar class includes some, limited stealth feature. The only navy ships designed specifically with stealth in mind are P17 and P15A and P28). P15A: 1 about to be commissioned, P17: 3 commissioned, P28: 1 about to be commissioned). Current carriers and amphibious ships are all non-stealth designs. Of the coast guard, only 2 OPVs currently have steath features
2. The fact that some ships have stealth features does not make them invisible, only less visible and then only in some respects.



> Stealth technology also termed LO technology (low observable technology) is a sub-discipline of military tactics and passive electronic countermeasures,which cover a range of techniques used with personnel, aircraft, ships, submarines, missile and satillites to make them less visible (ideally invisible) to radar , infrared, sonar and other detection methods . It corresponds to camounflage for these parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.


Stealth technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Donatello said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Since Pakistan has access to supersonic anti-ship missiles, Indian ships won't be able to come near Pakistan's coast.



Equally fatal overestimation of the missile capability.

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## Donatello

Penguin said:


> Equally fatal overestimation of the missile capability.



That's what i exactly wanted to convey. Just because it is Indian ships doesn't make them super dooper.

Such misconceptions are common here from Indian trolls.

If it's Chinese or Pakistani, it must be bad.

If it's Indian it must be the best.

LOL


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## indiatester

Donatello said:


> That's what i exactly wanted to convey. Just because it is Indian ships doesn't make them super dooper.
> 
> Such misconceptions are common here from Indian trolls.
> 
> If it's Chinese or Pakistani, it must be bad.
> 
> If it's Indian it must be the best.
> 
> LOL


The quality of our trolling is better though 
Insert sarcasm tags around please.


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## khail007

551 posts, any Indian keyboard admiral? Who can send Vikramditya & IAC Vikrant to Pakistani waters, except on a goodwill visit to Karachi or Gawadar (which I like to see) ... men, please grow-up and show some maturity.

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## BigDaddyWatch

As for India's aircraft carriers vs the PAF. The main advantage for the PAF is fixed wing AEW. Which the Indian carriers don't have. It means that the PAF planes can spot and track the Indian carrier based planes long before they know what is going on. The INS Viraat and its handful of subsonic Sea Harriers can be easily disposed of with JF-17 Thunders armed with PL-12 or PL-10 missile's. The INS Viraat these days goes out to sea with only 5 Sea Harriers and during war time that could increase to 10. And since the Sea Harriers can't fly far from the INS Viraat it means that the INS Viraat is near and that means ka boom time for the INS Viraat. The INS Vikramaditya with its MiG-29K Fulcrum-D's will be a much harder nut to crack. But the principle is the same.

Pakistan can neutralize or at least severely decrease the threat from India's aircraft carriers by having AEW planes like the ZDK-03 in its naval arsenal. The helicopter based AEW of the Indian carriers are far less effective and is a handicap for the carriers. Two AEW planes to deal with the 2 carrier based air fleet is enough.

And of course the new submarines will help too.


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## Last Samuri

Viraat iac is to be retired in three years along with the sea harriers. 

The thread starter actually showed you the indengious new Indian carrier being launched will join the vikramditya it'd called vikrant and will carry 24 mig29k fighters. 

The mig29k can tackle anything in pak air force even f16/52....

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## ChineseTiger1986

HariPrasad said:


> Actually all Pakistani Surface ships are of little use against India. MKI can release a Brahmos 300 KM away and ship will sink in 5 minutes. hypersonic brahmos are coming in next 4 years so as LRCM. I once again say that Except France made subs, No naval vessel posses any threat to IN. In case war breaks out, you will find this PN ships finding safe place to protect themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JL 2 is a bit away from being operationalized. We will have K4 and K5 by than. They are much potent weapon compare to any JL missile in 6000 KMS of Range.



You must be kidding.

China has tested JL-2 for more than decade, while your K4 and K5 are still on the paper.

BTW, if India does reach the JL-1 level by the 2020s, then it will be a tremendous achievement for you guys, then the next step is to test a three stages solid-fuel & 2 meters diameter SLBM like JL-2, and it should be ready by around the 2030s.

Don't ever think about flying when you can't even walk properly.

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## gslv mk3

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You must be kidding.
> 
> China has tested JL-2 for more than decade, while your K4 and K5 are still on the paper.
> 
> BTW, if India does reach the JL-1 level by the 2020s, then it will be a tremendous achievement for you guys, then the next step is to test a three stages solid-fuel & 2 meters diameter SLBM like JL-2, and it should be ready by around the 2030s.
> 
> Don't ever think about flying when you can't even walk properly.




Usual jokes by Chinese,the last one I have heard from you was that 'Pakistani SLBM (non existant) would be far more reliable than Indian SLBM (already tested)'

K 4 still on paper?Its ready for its first test,which would take place by this month.It carries a payload of 2 tonnes,range of 4000 km & according to some reports is a QBM / STM.Enough for China.



BigDaddyWatch said:


> As for India's aircraft carriers vs the PAF. The main advantage for the PAF is fixed wing AEW. Which the Indian carriers don't have. It means that the PAF planes can spot and track the Indian carrier based planes long before they know what is going on. The INS Viraat and its handful of subsonic Sea Harriers can be e*asily disposed of with JF-17 Thunders armed with PL-12 or PL-10 missile's*. The INS Viraat these days goes out to sea with only 5 Sea Harriers and during war time that could increase to 10. And since the Sea Harriers can't fly far from the INS Viraat it means that the INS Viraat is near and that means ka boom time for the INS Viraat. The INS Vikramaditya with its MiG-29K Fulcrum-D's will be a much harder nut to crack. But the principle is the same.
> 
> *Pakistan can neutralize or at least severely decrease the threat from India's aircraft carriers by having AEW planes like the ZDK-03 in its naval arsenal*. The helicopter based AEW of the Indian carriers are far less effective and is a handicap for the carriers. *Two AEW planes to deal with the 2 carrier based air fleet is enough*.
> 
> And of course the new submarines will help too.

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## jarves

BigDaddyWatch said:


> As for India's aircraft carriers vs the PAF. The main advantage for the PAF is fixed wing AEW. Which the Indian carriers don't have. It means that the PAF planes can spot and track the Indian carrier based planes long before they know what is going on. The INS Viraat and its handful of subsonic Sea Harriers can be easily disposed of with JF-17 Thunders armed with PL-12 or PL-10 missile's. The INS Viraat these days goes out to sea with only 5 Sea Harriers and during war time that could increase to 10. And since the Sea Harriers can't fly far from the INS Viraat it means that the INS Viraat is near and that means ka boom time for the INS Viraat. The INS Vikramaditya with its MiG-29K Fulcrum-D's will be a much harder nut to crack. But the principle is the same.
> 
> Pakistan can neutralize or at least severely decrease the threat from India's aircraft carriers by having AEW planes like the ZDK-03 in its naval arsenal. The helicopter based AEW of the Indian carriers are far less effective and is a handicap for the carriers. Two AEW planes to deal with the 2 carrier based air fleet is enough.
> 
> And of course the new submarines will help too.


Should we laugh at this?


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## ChineseTiger1986

gslv mk3 said:


> Usual jokes by Chinese,the last one I have heard from you was that 'Pakistani SLBM (non existant) would be far more reliable than Indian SLBM (already tested)'
> 
> K 4 still on paper?Its ready for its first test,which would take place by this month.It carries a payload of 2 tonnes,range of 4000 km & according to some reports is a QBM / STM.Enough for China.



India is still a toddler on SLBM, you should know your country's true capability.

US in 1990 only used the Intel 80486, but they can build the ultimate SLBM such as Trident II, while the France and Russia of today still can't build a SLBM comparable to it.

This is the cutting edge technology, you can only build it step by step, you cannot skip it.

Working hard, stop bragging, otherwise your dream will remain as a dream.


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## gslv mk3

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> India is still a toddler on SLBM, you should know your country's true capability.
> 
> US in 1990 only used the Intel 80486, but they can build the ultimate SLBM such as Trident II, while the France and Russia of today still can't build a SLBM comparable to it.
> 
> This is the cutting edge technology, you can only build it step by step, you cannot skip it.
> 
> Working hard, stop bragging, otherwise your dream will remain as a dream.



Already have a 4000 km (real range is far more with a non MIRV payload,preferably TNW ) SLBM ready for flight tests.

Well what cutting edge technology do China poses in SLBMs & India would take years to build?Nothing-We have already demonstrated our SLBM capabilities with Agni V.


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## ChineseTiger1986

A 4000 tonnes SLBM? What is that?

You haven't started to develop a three stages solid-fuel & 2 meters diameter SLBM, while China has started the development more than 20 years ago and started to test it more than 10 years ago.


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## gslv mk3

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> A 4000 tonnes SLBM? What is that?
> 
> *You haven't started to develop a three stages solid-fuel & 2 meters diameter* SLBM, while China has started the development more than 20 years ago and started to test it more than 10 years ago.



typo...I mean to type 4000 km for 2 tonne payload.

Is it necessary for an SLBM to have 3 stages & dia of 2 m ? For us a 2 stage SLBM with dia 1.2 m with range of 4000 km with MIRV ( or else there wont be a 2 tonne payload ) is enough to target China

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## HariPrasad

It has yet to get initial operational clearance. Pl read and from now onward keep your knowledge update.

TAIPEI — For the first time in the country’s history, China’s sea-based nuclear deterrent nears initial operational capability (IOC), according to a forthcoming report by a US congressional commission on China.
With a range of 4,000 nautical miles, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will have its first credible sea-based nuclear deterrent against the US mainland, 

Chine : le missile stratégique JL-2 pour...

So you have yet to have a credible nuclear deterrence.

Your JL 2 is no match to K series. K series are quasi basaltic missile with light weight and and Huge weight carrying with near to Zero CEP with lots of terminal maneuvers. None of your system is capable of intercepting it. It has much higher range than advertised like A5. Our missile is so accurate that we can use it with conventional warhead against high value target.

DO not bring your J 1 to 100 in discussion. They are decades behind K series.


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## Immanuel

The INS Vikky will carry upto 30 Mig-29Ks + 6 Helos, Pak has no significant moves that can pose any significant threat to The CBG. All of **** airspace is heavily monitored by long range radars, we keep a close eye on all **** Naval & AF installations and IN will know as soon as any aerial or sub threats take off towards the sea, moreover, even the Russians them selves couldn't get a lock on the Vikky during trials using A-50, Su-33 and Mig-29s due to Vikky's long range EW suite, it carries with it plenty of firepower. The biggest threat to the CBG are the subs, however with P-8Is and other ASW units in CBG, any PN sub will be dead far before it gets into firing range. 

As for the K-series both K-15/Sagarika/Shaurya and K-4 are Hybrid missiles which are hypersonic and fly in cruise trajectory. K-15 has demonstrated mach 7.5 while cruising at around 40km altitude and depending on payload can fly between 750-1500 km away. The Missile in uninterceptible due to its ability to manuever and perform terminal steep dives. As far as single missile is concerned, it is by far one of the most capable missiles in the world while being both Land and sub launched. K-4 test in the next month will also demonstrate a biggger missile with similar flying capabilities at much longer ranges.

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## kurup

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You must be kidding.
> 
> China has tested JL-2 for more than decade, while your K4 and K5 are still on the paper.
> 
> BTW, if India does reach the JL-1 level by the 2020s, then it will be a tremendous achievement for you guys, then the next step is to test a three stages solid-fuel & 2 meters diameter SLBM like JL-2, and it should be ready by around the 2030s.
> 
> Don't ever think about flying when you can't even walk properly.



What is the range and payload capacity of JL-1 ??

Also isn't JL-2 a two stage SLBM with 1st stage solid and 2nd stage liquid fuelled ??


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## trident2010

Two ACCs are more than a threat for PN. However, IN won't be using it for PN. That would be overkill.


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## Basel

Immanuel said:


> The INS Vikky will carry upto 30 Mig-29Ks + 6 Helos, Pak has no significant moves that can pose any significant threat to The CBG. All of **** airspace is heavily monitored by long range radars, we keep a close eye on all **** Naval & AF installations and IN will know as soon as any aerial or sub threats take off towards the sea, moreover, even the Russians them selves couldn't get a lock on the Vikky during trials using A-50, Su-33 and Mig-29s due to Vikky's long range EW suite, it carries with it plenty of firepower. The biggest threat to the CBG are the subs, however with P-8Is and other ASW units in CBG, any PN sub will be dead far before it gets into firing range.



IN have good capabilities but you are getting over confident and totally underestimating PN which now have much longer range anti ship missiles and other stuff, IN is advancing fast in its modernization but PN is also not sitting in 1971.


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## Alpha1

Immanuel said:


> The biggest threat to the CBG are the subs, however with P-8Is and other ASW units in CBG, any PN sub will be dead far before it gets into firing range.


you are clearly underestimating AIP subs / agostas

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## trident2010

Alpha1 said:


> you are clearly underestimating AIP subs / agostas



CBG also consists of the subs to specifically counter the threats from other submarines. So if we add the ASWs from ACC+surface CBGs+CBG submarines +P-8Is, looks pretty good for ACC.


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## Penguin

Alpha1 said:


> you are clearly underestimating AIP subs / agostas


I think the USN would disagree. Hence they leased a Swedish SSK for operational testing.



> In November 2004, the Swedish Government approved a proposal for the US Navy to lease HMS Gotland and crew for one year to participate in naval exercises. Gotland arrived at the Naval Air Station North Island, San Diego in June 2005. The submarine will operate in the opposing force (OPFOR) role. In June 2006, the lease was extended for a further year. In July 2007, HMS Gotland left San Diego to return to Sweden.


SSK Gotland Class (Type A19) - Naval Technology

Time and time again at least during excersizes SSK have caused carrier groups headaches.





Dutch Submarines: Periscope shots


> " . . . . .during NATO exercise "North Star" in March '89 the Dutch
> Submarine "_Zwaardvis_" was the only orange (enemy) submarine to successfully
> stalk and sink a blue (allied) aircraft carrier although orange SSN
> (=nuclear driven subs) were participating . . . ."
> From: " The Changing Role of NATO submarines", Naval Forces 5/89, vol X." by Norman Polmar.


Dutch Submarines: News of 1999

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## kbd-raaf

Penguin said:


> I think the USN would disagree. Hence they leased a Swedish SSK for operational testing.
> 
> 
> SSK Gotland Class (Type A19) - Naval Technology
> 
> Time and time again at least during excersizes SSK have caused carrier groups headaches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutch Submarines: Periscope shots
> 
> Dutch Submarines: News of 1999



Were the P3s present in those exercises?


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## Penguin

kbd-raaf said:


> Were the P3s present in those exercises?


Nato exercizes in the Atlantic, most likely yes. The Dutch in fact operated P3's at that time.

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## 帅的一匹

HariPrasad said:


> It has yet to get initial operational clearance. Pl read and from now onward keep your knowledge update.
> 
> TAIPEI — For the first time in the country’s history, China’s sea-based nuclear deterrent nears initial operational capability (IOC), according to a forthcoming report by a US congressional commission on China.
> With a range of 4,000 nautical miles, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will have its first credible sea-based nuclear deterrent against the US mainland,
> 
> Chine : le missile stratégique JL-2 pour...
> 
> So you have yet to have a credible nuclear deterrence.
> 
> Your JL 2 is no match to K series. K series are quasi basaltic missile with light weight and and Huge weight carrying with near to Zero CEP with lots of terminal maneuvers. None of your system is capable of intercepting it. It has much higher range than advertised like A5. Our missile is so accurate that we can use it with conventional warhead against high value target.
> 
> DO not bring your J 1 to 100 in discussion. They are decades behind K series.


Seems you try to challenge the low IQ end of this forum, unscrupulous and ignorance. K series are far from matured, you are boasting too much......


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## kurup

wanglaokan said:


> Seems you try to challenge the low IQ end of this forum, unscrupulous and ignorance. K series are far from matured, you are boasting too much......



K series missiles are being already been tested from underwater .

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## acid rain

wanglaokan said:


> Seems you try to challenge the low IQ end of this forum, unscrupulous and ignorance. K series are far from matured, you are boasting too much......



11 tests of K15 have already been completed, the 11th one was its final test - they are being integrated on our nuke sub as we speak.


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## browser

trident2010 said:


> Two ACCs are more than a threat for PN. However, IN won't be using it for PN. That would be overkill.




In an offensive mode, they would be sitting ducks for any reasonable navy/missile (Pakistan included). So yes we probably would not risk using them against PN. For India a carrier is a good defensive platform or sea lane blockage tool (far from the PN bases). Would guess that the Indian carrier task group has 10% of the capabilities of the US ones + we only have one. So no chance of seeing it in action any time soon. Having one is a step though for the long term (30 yrs) when assuming our economy does not tank we could have multiple carriers (5+) and then thump our chests.


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## Alphacharlie

browser said:


> In an offensive mode, they would be sitting ducks for any reasonable navy/missile (Pakistan included). So yes we probably would not risk using them against PN. For India a carrier is a good defensive platform or sea lane blockage tool (far from the PN bases). Would guess that the Indian carrier task group has 10% of the capabilities of the US ones + we only have one. So no chance of seeing it in action any time soon. Having one is a step though for the long term (30 yrs) when assuming our economy does not tank we could have multiple carriers (5+) and then thump our chests.


WHAT IS BASIS OF YOUR ASSERTION SON ?
DID YOU CONDUCT ANY WSC TEST?


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## Harisudan

Slayer786 said:


> What delusional minds we have here.


What is so wrong in it?In what sense it is delusional?
Indian defence forces possess Radar capabilities which can scan almost 990 percent of Pakistani space, let alone the Satellite recon pics..
Any preparation for strategic strike can be met with nuke holocaust..That has been the plan of India After kargil..Your strategic Nuke carrying Missiles are all liquid fuelled and hence needs filling of fuel just before launch which will take hours together..That is the crucial part of India's second strike,..
In plain simple words, Pakistan needs atleast 15 years to catch up India's abilities today..and India Needs atleast 10 years to catch up china's abilities..

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## Harisudan

Basel said:


> She did not care about world opinion, because if she does have cared about it she had stopped assault on Dhaka, She even wanted to finish west Pakistan but at that time US was ready to go at war to save west Pakistan and India even today is in no position to fight US. I have posted links to clarify the minds of those Indians who think that US would have not gone to war with them to save west Pakistan, do u know they have threatened USSR for war if India entered west Pakistan after creating Bangladesh. You ppl just clamming about fleet encounters which do happened but things changed for US when Bangladesh was created and west Pakistan was in danger.


No, USA was not ready to go to war for pakistan, they did everything to stop India in Poilitical means, but it never was ready to go to war with India over paksitan..
There are so many documents which were declassified both from CIA and RAW which can help you get a fair Idea on what happened back then..Pls google em...
After that debate in UN security council, where Bhutto walked out vowing that he'll fight the war, the Political game was pretty much over..
The US CBG was just show casing and to keep Indian Navy at bay so that the Pakistani land forces and Airforces could fight the war for few more day so that, The new shipments from USA can reach them Via Turkey..
Pls go and do some more research..


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## Abingdonboy

Penguin said:


> Airbus A330 MRTT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Airbus Wins Indiaâs Tanker Rebid | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> So, there are 6 Il-78. There is an intent to buy 12 additional tankers. Of those, 6 are sure to be A330MRTT. It remains to be seen what the other 6 will be.
> 
> Since Mig29K can do buddy-refueling using the same UPAZ-1A/M pod used on the standard IL-78, you might see the IL-78 transferred to Navy if Air Force gets sufficient additional A330MRTT. Then again, IIRC the IAF IL-78 are fitted with Isreali fuel transfer systems, and this may or may not mean non-standard pods (not sure. see: TRISHUL: IL-78MKI-90 Detailed).
> 
> I would think any MRTTs would also be used in other roles, which could impose on the number available for tanker duties at any given time.


The IAF will never transfer assets like AARs to the IN- they just won't do it. The way it will have to happen is the IN gets their own AARs and this is already under serious consideration, after the initial 6 A330 MRTTs the follow-on order is likely to be for 8 (6+2) A330 MRTT with 2 earmarked for the Indian Navy, order should be placed sometime in 2016.


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