# Z-10 & Z-19 Combat Helicopter News & Discussion



## Akasa

Yes, it's a newly-released helicopter, and it made its maiden flight on August 10, 2010.

Reports:

Here
Here

TRANSLATED FROM MANDARIN:
*LONDON August 10 news: According to the Russian military-industrial complex site on Aug. 9 report, China Aviation Industry Corporation has recently unveiled its newly developed attack helicopters - the first stand straight -19 test with machine.

The new attack helicopters to the Chinese Army Aviation fleet of straight-9W-based research, mainly used to attack tanks and other heavy targets.

Published photos from the current point of view, direct -19's body is relatively narrow, with the tandem cockpit components. It retains the straight-9WA the tail and main rotor helicopter design. In addition, to reduce design risk, AVIC Group may also be installed for the direct -19 straight-9WA with the same power plant. Media reports said the direct -19 attack helicopter in May this year completed its first flight.

Some analysts have pointed out that the direct -10 medium-sized attack helicopter development work is now nearing completion, while new entrants are likely to launch the direct -19 with the formation of high and low with the former, the former quantity to cover the shortage. In addition, the integration of the power unit had problems, leading to direct the progress of -10 project delays, which may also lead to the development of the direct -19 Chinese, one of the reasons. Straight -10 helicopter April 29, 2003 completed its first flight, the exhaust ports help reduce the use of the infrared signal design. Initially, the direct -10 equipment is manufactured in Canada PT6C-76C engine, but production models may be equipped with the same engine with direct -9. It is said that the first straight-10A equipped Chinese Army have already begun.

Developed as the basis of straight -19 straight-9W is the first production of attack helicopters, is currently the main equipment of China Army Aviation troops. Direct-9W equipped with powerful "Red Arrow-8A" anti-tank missiles, 57/90 mm rockets, 23 mm cannon and used against air targets TY-90 air to air missiles*.​
REAL PHOTOS:












(Bottom one)

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## no_name

It's derived from Z-9 ?


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## Akasa

no_name said:


> It's derived from Z-9 ?



Yes

But it essentially is re-designed. It looks like the WZ-10.


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## siegecrossbow

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes
> 
> But it essentially is re-designed. It looks like the WZ-10.



A new Z-9 variant crashed very recently. No one knows what type it was. Is it possible that it was a Z-19?


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## Akasa

siegecrossbow said:


> A new Z-9 variant crashed very recently. No one knows what type it was. Is it possible that it was a Z-19?



It is a WZ-19. But the second test was successful.


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## Leela25

Hi SinoSoldier, where did you get that third pic in your first post? It is a concept drawing for the WZ-10 attack helicopter created by Stingray, the webmaster of Stingray's List of Rotorcraft and Stingray's Rotorcraft Forum, which I'm a member of. It is NOT a drawing of the WZ-19, he says it is what he thought the WZ-10 looked like when he made the drawing. 

I'd give you a link to the thread where he says this but I can't post links until I made 15 posts.


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## CardSharp

Leela25 said:


> Hi SinoSoldier, where did you get that third pic in your first post? It is a concept drawing for the WZ-10 attack helicopter created by Stingray, the webmaster of Stingray's List of Rotorcraft and Stingray's Rotorcraft Forum, which I'm a member of. It is NOT a drawing of the WZ-19, he says it is what he thought the WZ-10 looked like when he made the drawing.
> 
> I'd give you a link to the thread where he says this but I can't post links until I made 15 posts.



Sinosoldier's referencing has never been stellar. I wouldn't sweat it.


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## Akasa

Leela25 said:


> Hi SinoSoldier, where did you get that third pic in your first post? It is a concept drawing for the WZ-10 attack helicopter created by Stingray, the webmaster of Stingray's List of Rotorcraft and Stingray's Rotorcraft Forum, which I'm a member of. It is NOT a drawing of the WZ-19, he says it is what he thought the WZ-10 looked like when he made the drawing.
> 
> I'd give you a link to the thread where he says this but I can't post links until I made 15 posts.



The one at the very top is the WZ-19. The 2 ones at the bottom are the WZ-10.


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## Lankan Ranger

*WZ-10 Attack Helicopter already in Service *

*There are at lease 8 of them already in service by PLA 5th LH Regiment
*

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## Lankan Ranger

*XINHUI*

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## Lankan Ranger

*WZ-10 Attack Helicopter Ready*

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## aimarraul



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## farhan_9909

nice pics.

how is it when we compare it with LCH indian?


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## spin666

Hard to say. Because LCH is just a prototype. Which mean it could take atleast 3-5years befor it's ready. And consider then WZ-10 should be getting a upgrade already.

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## MAFIAN GOD

spin666 said:


> Hard to say. Because LCH is just a prototype. Which mean it could take atleast 3-5years befor it's ready. And consider then WZ-10 should be getting a upgrade already.



Atleast do some homework before posting.
LCH is in development phase.
LCH IOC-Dec. 10
FOC-Dec.2011
It will get inducted in forces in 2012.

These are few videos
YouTube - First flight - Indian HAL LCH Light Combat Helicopter

YouTube - India gunship HAL LCH Light Combat Helicopter - first flight

YouTube - IAF HAL LCH Light Combat Helicopter NDTV documentary in Hindi (1 of 2)

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## MAFIAN GOD

> how is it when we compare it with LCH indian?


LCH is developed by HAL for completely special purpose.
It is meant to fight at very high altitudes.
Right now it is about 20&#37; overweight.
deveopment is going on.When it will be ready it can fight at altitudes higher than 6500m.
Compairing to wz-10 it just fall short in weapon carrying and other few things but still both helis are made for different purposes.
WZ-10 :main attack heli
LCH : Attack heli for high terrains like Kashmir and North-East India.


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## mjnaushad

@Mafian God.

LCH serial production started?? If not saying LCH is a prototype is not wrong.

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## spin666

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Atleast do some homework before posting kid.
> LCH is in development phase.
> LCH IOC-Dec. 10
> FOC-Dec.2011
> It will get inducted in forces in 2012.



Right. maybe I'm wrong.
Check out wiki:

Basic prototype categories

There is no general agreement on what constitutes a "prototype" and the word is often used interchangeably with the word "model" which can cause confusion. In general, "prototypes" fall into four basic categories:

Proof-of-Principle Prototype (Model) (in electronics sometimes built on a breadboard). This type of prototype is used to test some aspect of the intended design without attempting to exactly simulate the visual appearance, choice of materials or intended manufacturing process. Such prototypes can be used to "prove" out a potential design approach such as range of motion, mechanics, sensors, architecture, etc. These types of models are often used to identify which design options will not work, or where further development and testing is necessary.

Form Study Prototype (Model). This type of prototype will allow designers to explore the basic size, look and feel of a product without simulating the actual function or exact visual appearance of the product. They can help assess ergonomic factors and provide insight into visual aspects of the product's final form. Form Study Prototypes are often hand-carved or machined models from easily sculpted, inexpensive materials (e.g., urethane foam), without representing the intended color, finish, or texture. Due to the materials used, these models are intended for internal decision making and are generally not durable enough or suitable for use by representative users or consumers.

Visual Prototype (Model) will capture the intended design aesthetic and simulate the appearance, color and surface textures of the intended product but will not actually embody the function(s) of the final product. These models will be suitable for use in market research, executive reviews and approval, packaging mock-ups, and photo shoots for sales literature.

Functional Prototype (Model) (also called a working prototype) will, to the greatest extent practical, attempt to simulate the final design, aesthetics, materials and functionality of the intended design. The functional prototype may be reduced in size (scaled down) in order to reduce costs. The construction of a fully working full-scale prototype and the ultimate test of concept, is the engineers' final check for design flaws and allows last-minute improvements to be made before larger production runs are ordered.

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## MAFIAN GOD

spin666 said:


> Right. maybe I'm wrong.
> Check out wiki:
> 
> Basic prototype categories
> 
> There is no general agreement on what constitutes a "prototype" and the word is often used interchangeably with the word "model" which can cause confusion. In general, "prototypes" fall into four basic categories:
> 
> Proof-of-Principle Prototype (Model) (in electronics sometimes built on a breadboard). This type of prototype is used to test some aspect of the intended design without attempting to exactly simulate the visual appearance, choice of materials or intended manufacturing process. Such prototypes can be used to "prove" out a potential design approach such as range of motion, mechanics, sensors, architecture, etc. These types of models are often used to identify which design options will not work, or where further development and testing is necessary.
> 
> Form Study Prototype (Model). This type of prototype will allow designers to explore the basic size, look and feel of a product without simulating the actual function or exact visual appearance of the product. They can help assess ergonomic factors and provide insight into visual aspects of the product's final form. Form Study Prototypes are often hand-carved or machined models from easily sculpted, inexpensive materials (e.g., urethane foam), without representing the intended color, finish, or texture. Due to the materials used, these models are intended for internal decision making and are generally not durable enough or suitable for use by representative users or consumers.
> 
> Visual Prototype (Model) will capture the intended design aesthetic and simulate the appearance, color and surface textures of the intended product but will not actually embody the function(s) of the final product. These models will be suitable for use in market research, executive reviews and approval, packaging mock-ups, and photo shoots for sales literature.
> 
> Functional Prototype (Model) (also called a working prototype) will, to the greatest extent practical, attempt to simulate the final design, aesthetics, materials and functionality of the intended design. The functional prototype may be reduced in size (scaled down) in order to reduce costs. The construction of a fully working full-scale prototype and the ultimate test of concept, is the engineers' final check for design flaws and allows last-minute improvements to be made before larger production runs are ordered.



my bad.
Actually there are 2 more are in testing phase.
So it can not be called a prototype.
Also only 6 WZ-10 are in the service of PLA.
So can we also say that only prototypes are in servive?


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## HongWu

WZ-10 recently entered mass production. The mass production version is improved "A" version. WZ-10 program was completed more than 3 years ago but the lack of engine held up deployment. Now China's engine problems are solved.



spin666 said:


> Hard to say. Because LCH is just a prototype. Which mean it could take atleast 3-5years befor it's ready. And consider then WZ-10 should be getting a upgrade already.


India has no attack helicopter program. That LCH is just made up to fool Indian people. India hasn't ever made any indigenous helicopter. China was making indigenous utility helicopters, transport helicopters and naval helicopters before making something as advanced as WZ-10.

Again, the Indians are proving they are no match it's such a joke. That LCH is never going to enter service for at least 20 years. Wait for the Arjun and the LCA first!

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## Akasa

A small number of these were in service in 2008. Due to engine problems, they had to cut production temporarily.

Now it seems that we have both the WZ-10 and WZ-19 in full production, and the WZ-12 in early stages of testing.

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## PAFAce

MAFIAN GOD said:


> LCH : Attack heli for high terrains like Kashmir and North-East India.


What is the purpose of an attack helicopter that is designed to fight in the frozen mountains at the expense of performance on over regular terrain? Unless you are expecting to fight entire wars there, which doesn't fit with the Indian doctrine against either Pak or China. I would appreciate it i you could shed some light on this.

I think if what you say is right, then the LCH is not designed for conventional war but for hunting insurgents. Over the deserts of Sindh, this helicopter would be a sitting duck for our SAMs/Helis. Would this assumption be correct?

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## Speeder 2

MAFIAN GOD said:


> LCH is developed by *HAL *for completely special purpose.
> .



 

You know what, I just love the words such as * HAL, or DRO, 

or DRDO, and alikes*. 

Is HAL solely responsible for it then? 

It's such a treat, rare though, every time I encounter one of those terms in PDF. 

... because that means only 1 outcome: 

See ya in 2083 AD (with all the luck), or beyond?

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## ironman

PAFAce said:


> What is the purpose of an attack helicopter that is designed to fight in the frozen mountains at the expense of performance on over regular terrain? Unless you are expecting to fight entire wars there, which doesn't fit with the Indian doctrine against either Pak or China. I would appreciate it i you could shed some light on this.
> 
> I think if what you say is right, then the LCH is not designed for conventional war but for hunting insurgents. Over the deserts of Sindh, this helicopter would be a sitting duck for our SAMs/Helis. Would this assumption be correct?



Actually the project was begun for the armed forces after the Kargil incident. The Kargil conflict showed the need for a dedicated attack copter in high altitudes to the forces, a significant amount of our conflicted areas fell under this category.

* On topic: Which engine is currently using for the WZ-10 ?

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## Water Car Engineer

aimarraul said:


>



Its a really nice attack helicopter, I like it a lot. I wish there was more photos!



> India has no attack helicopter program. That LCH is just made up to fool Indian people. India hasn't ever made any indigenous helicopter. China was making indigenous utility helicopters, transport helicopters and naval helicopters before making something as advanced as WZ-10.
> 
> Again, the Indians are proving they are no match it's such a joke. That LCH is never going to enter service for at least 20 years. Wait for the Arjun and the LCA first!



What gives you the idea it isnt an attack helicopter?These are India first attempts at making a fighter jet, tank, attack helicopter, etc, etc, etc. Arjun is in service btw..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Chinese Apache ....

Kinda looks like Apache , and its fully armed as well in pics - so how can it be a prototype 

This looks more like Pre Production status helicopter all weapons systems are already visible on the machine

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## Numba9hockey

Does anybody know how it fares up to the Apache?


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## Merilion

Numba9hockey said:


> Does anybody know how it fares up to the Apache?



i guess it's not on par with Apache yet. i read somewhere that the original design was aimed to Apache but due to US blocked the canada made engine sales to china, china has to use its own developed engine but it's not powerful enough so has to redesign the heli to slim down a bit which in turn reducing payloads...

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## aimarraul

ironman said:


> * On topic: Which engine is currently using for the WZ-10 ?



Wozhou-9

CAIC WZ-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## gambit

Numba9hockey said:


> Does anybody know how it fares up to the Apache?


You have no idea the power of Photochop. I wonder why the US is so behind in this technology.

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## AMCA

HongWu said:


> WZ-10 recently entered mass production. The mass production version is improved "A" version. WZ-10 program was completed more than 3 years ago but the lack of engine held up deployment. Now China's engine problems are solved.
> 
> 
> India has no attack helicopter program. That LCH is just made up to fool Indian people. India hasn't ever made any indigenous helicopter. China was making indigenous utility helicopters, transport helicopters and naval helicopters before making something as advanced as WZ-10.
> 
> Again, the Indians are proving they are no match it's such a joke. That LCH is never going to enter service for at least 20 years. Wait for the Arjun and the LCA first!



LCH was our 2nd Helicopter and We made it within 4 years time, the project was started in 2006 and we have a Prototype now.... and LCH has already been ordered , 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army....


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## Lankan Ranger

*There will be two versions of WZ-10 Attack Helicopters

1 &#8211; PLA Version

2 &#8211; Export Version

For now engine Ukrainian Motor-Sich TV3-117 in the future Chinese Wozhou (WZ)-9
*

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## vce

ironman said:


> * On topic: Which engine is currently using for the WZ-10 ?





Sri Lankan said:


> *There will be two versions of WZ-10 Attack Helicopters
> 
> 1 &#8211; PLA Version
> 
> 2 &#8211; Export Version
> 
> For now engine Ukrainian Motor-Sich TV3-117 in the future Chinese Wozhou (WZ)-9
> *



*the operational Z-10As are powered by WZ-9 engines.
TV3-117VM is a 1600~1700kW power class engine.it's powerful ,but heavier and bigger ,so it can not fit into the Z-10.*
TV3-117VM
http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/turboshaft/tv-117vm

Wozhou (WZ)-9 is the turboshaft engine of 950kW power class, equivalent to Tiger's MTR390.


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## MAFIAN GOD

How many of WZ-10 are ordered by china?


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## spin666

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Chinese Apache ....
> 
> Kinda looks like Apache , and its fully armed as well in pics - so how can it be a prototype
> 
> This looks more like Pre Production status helicopter all weapons systems are already visible on the machine



Actualy it look more like Denel AH-2 Rooivalk(south africa) or A129(Italy). Which some sorce said that Wz-10 did had some form of help from South africa. 

OFC we-10 could also be at prototype stage too, but it's kind doubtful as most recent pic show it's more likely been product at slow pace at same it's on trial use in PLA.

Like any other combat air vehicle,important thing to remember if you are going compare LCH to WZ-10,as PLA don't like to talk that much in that field. Also the fact that no one is block EU/US/RU to sell advance weaponry and electoronic to India, and they do block those sells to China would be a bad thing for the WZ-10.


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## Martian2

spin666 said:


> *Actualy it look more like* Denel AH-2 Rooivalk(south africa) or *A129(Italy)*.







WZ-10





AW A129

The most noticeable difference is the sloped body of the WZ-10. It appears that the WZ-10 was designed with stealth elements to reduce its radar signature. In contrast, the AW A129 has a traditional flat fuselage.

There are many other differences that are obvious, such as the placement of the frontal landing gear (e.g. the struts are placed under the pilot's cockpit for the WZ-10 and the navigator's for the AW A129). The air intake for the WZ-10's jet engine is not obvious, another likely stealth feature. On the AW A129, the gaping hole for the air intake can be clearly seen.

On the whole, how similar is the external appearance of the WZ-10 and AW A129? You decide.


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## spin666

Martian2 said:


> The most noticeable difference is the sloped body of the WZ-10. It appears that the WZ-10 was designed with stealth elements to reduce its radar signature. In contrast, the AW A129 has a traditional flat fuselage.
> 
> There are many other differences that are obvious, such as the placement of the frontal landing gear (e.g. the struts are placed under the pilot's cockpit for the WZ-10 and the navigator's for the AW A129). The air intake for the WZ-10's jet engine is not obvious, another likely stealth feature. On the AW A129, the gaping hole for the air intake can be clearly seen.
> 
> On the whole, how similar is the external appearance of the WZ-10 and AW A129? You decide.



The point was that it look more of thoese two then AH-64. Also the design take more from A129 and Ah2 then AH-64, atleast at it's frame. Also did you taking account of the A129's age? The stealth element isn't that odd,consider how young the design is.


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## Dragon Emperor

I think future new Chinese helis should be made bigger with heavier armor and more payloads. It should be designated as Heavy Attack Helicopter and its role is to attack heavily defended enemy targets and strongpoints to soften up the way before tanks and infantry storm the area.

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## HongWu

ironman said:


> * On topic: Which engine is currently using for the WZ-10 ?


China has mastered modern turbofan technology. Z-10A uses the indigenous turbofshaft.



Varghese said:


> What gives you the idea it isnt an attack helicopter?These are India first attempts at making a fighter jet, tank, attack helicopter, etc, etc, etc. Arjun is in service btw..


I've never seen an Indian designed avionics system and combat sensors. You will see LCA in service long before LCH. India is trying to go from making nothing to making a combat helicopter. That is impossible.



Merilion said:


> i guess it's not on par with Apache yet. i read somewhere that the original design was aimed to Apache but due to US blocked the canada made engine sales to china, china has to use its own developed engine but it's not powerful enough so has to redesign the heli to slim down a bit which in turn reducing payloads...


It should be comparable to Eurocopter Tiger.



AMCA said:


> LCH was our 2nd Helicopter and We made it within 4 years time, the project was started in 2006 and we have a Prototype now.... and LCH has already been ordered , 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army....


Those numbers are all made up by the Indian media or the government. India hasn't even made a simple helicopter by itself or even made its own avionics. You will need to see LCA in service first long before India makes its own combat helicopter. But China has a really advanced one already.



MAFIAN GOD said:


> How many of WZ-10 are ordered by china?


Since China makes its own Z-10A, it can order thousands or even more as long as it has the budget.

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## Black Knight

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------

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## tkunk8

I'm sorry I can not English

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## tkunk8

I'm very very sorry

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## webber

sharp


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## fatman17

*Z-10 * 

A first glimpse of an Army Aviation Z-10 attack helicopter is shown here. Co-developed by the 602 Institute, CHAIC and HAMC as the first dedicated modern attack helicopter for PLA Army Aviation since 1998, Z-10 is generally believed in the same class as South African Rooviak and Italian A129, yet still not as capable as American AH-64 Apache. The helicoter adopts a standard gunship configuration featuring a narrow fuselage and stepped tandem cockpits with the gunner in the frontseat and the pilot in the backseat. The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond cross section to reduce RCS. It also have a 5-blade main rotor made of composite material and an AH-64 style 4-blade tail rotor. All the vital areas of the fuselage including the cockpit and fuel tanks are believed to be protected by the armor plates. It weighs about 5.5 tons and was powered initially by two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines (rated @ 1,250kW each). However domestic developed engines (upgrated WZ-9?) are being used in production batches due to the embargo imposed by the west. Its rotor and transmission systems may have been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter France and Agusta. Its weapon system may consist of up to 8 HJ-8A ATGMs in box launchers under the stub wings and a 23 or 30mm cannon mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted sight. Furthermore PL-90 AAMs can be carried against enemy helicopters and slow-moving fixed wing aircraft. It can also carry 8 newly developed KD-10 ATGMs in the same class of AGM-114 Hellfire. Similar to AH-64, Z-10 features a large nose turret housing FLIR, TV camera, laser range finder and designator. RWR and MAWS sensors are installed on both sides of the forward and aft fuselage. In addition, a laser warning receiver is installed on top of the pylon on each side. The helicopter may also be fitted with an integrated communication/navigation system, a comprehensive ECM suite, IFF, chaff/flare launchers, 1553B databus, and a glass cockpit. 2 prototypes were built in 2003 and 6 more were built in 2004. The first flight of 02 prototype took place on April 29, 2003. Several Z-10 prototypes powered by PT6C-76C engine were evaluated by the Army by 2007. In 2009 it was reported that an "optimized" version (Z-10A?) was under developemnt and expected to enter the mass production. This version has a reduced weight and is powered by the upgraded WZ-9 engines. The latest images (December 2010) confirmed that at least 8 Z-10s of the first batch have entered the service with PLA Army Aviation (S/N LH951xx). 

- Last Updated 1/25/11

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## cross1993

have not Longbow Fire Control Radar......
Where is our Fire Control Radar?


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## qwerrty

the early prototype seemed to have a better sensors. don't know why they change it to only simple mounted FLIR?


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## somebozo

looks like a capable contender


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## houshanghai

new pic

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## houshanghai



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## gambit

fatman17 said:


> The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond cross section to reduce RCS.


Contrary to popular beliefs everywhere, radar cross section (RCS) reduction was not the original consideration for the tandem seating configuration. The Cobra's slim frontal profile, made possible by the tandem seating design, was intended for frontal aerodynamic drag reduction and more to make infantry riflemen's targeting of the aircraft difficult. Hard to believe but that is the case. For RCS control...There are simply too much external 'doodads' hanging off the helo's fuselage to make fuselage RCS reduction worthwhile. Further...The helo's mission usually takes it down to the proverbial 'tree top' level to put it well within detection range of even police radar that catches violators of the motorway speed limit laws.

The helo's rotor is often an excellent computational exercise for aspiring radar engineers. The phenomena is called the 'RADAM effects'...

AccessScience | Encyclopedia Article | Continuous-wave radar


> Rapid discontinuous fluctuations in the scattering from a moving multielement target is known as the intermittent-contact RADAM (*ra*dar *d*etection of *a*gitated *m*etals) effect. This effect is observed in the contact between the drive sprocket and the tread of a tank and can be used to define signatures of various kinds of fighting vehicles.


The Doppler factor weighs heavily in creating the RADAM algorithms. From any viewing perspective and angle, there is always one rotor blade traveling towards the viewer and one traveling away. Therefore, the greater the number of rotor blades, the greater the complexity of the Doppler signatures and assurances of their presence. It make sense, if the rotor does not perform, or rotate, in a consistent manner, the helo does not fly. So the greater the assurances of the rotor blades' as RCS contributors, or rather the rotor itself, especially when that contributor is highly consistent from any viewing perspective and angle, the less of a need to consider the fuselage and assorted 'doodads' themselves as contributors to the final vehicle's RCS. That does not mean those contributors are not important. They are. But only that they are of secondary importance compared to the rotor blades when the helo is in flight.

To date, the only known source for a potential remedy for the RADAM effects for helos is from materials science. In order to take flight and maintain stable flight, the blades themselves are wings and therefore they must obey the same aerodynamic laws as fixed wings aircrafts. Just like the wings on the F-117 or the F-22, each blade cannot be faceted. Unlike fixed wing aircrafts where blended body-wing designs are common and can actually assist in RCS reduction as well as share the aerodynamic burden of flight, the helo's rotor blades are the only means the helo can take flight and maintain stable flight. That leave materials science, not body shaping trickery, as the only way to reduce the rotor blades as RCS contributors.

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## SQ8

Ah.. I miss the RAH-66...

There does seem to be an effort to make this design quite a bit streamlined.. So we may be looking at speeds approaching the Mi-24 for this bird.


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## milvipes

Obviously, it will also carry unguided rockets. Has it been revealed what kind of rockets will it carry? 57 or 80mm.


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## Whiplash

Awesome machine. Looks great.



> Obviously, it will also carry unguided rockets. Has it been revealed what kind of rockets will it carry? 57 or 80mm.



Err.. Both? Depends on which rocket pod you attach. All combat helos can carry both. Unless your question is related to which ones the chinese have standardised for the chopper. Then I'm not sure. 

A question to the Chinese members. The large partition between the cockpit glass of the two pilots. Won't it cause huge obstruction to the rear pilots view?


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## CardSharp

Does China have a functional equivalent of the Hellfire?


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## tanlixiang28776

CardSharp said:


> Does China have a functional equivalent of the Hellfire?


 
For a while now. The HJ 10 .

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## Transgress

I hear China's helicopter fleet has low firepower, due to French roots. How does this compare? Pretty sure this was inspired by previous helicopter designs and experience, should get those Hinds and improve em


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## localoca

gambit said:


> Contrary to popular beliefs everywhere, radar cross section (RCS) reduction was not the original consideration for the tandem seating configuration..


 That's one big load of baloney


----------



## Akasa

Transgress said:


> I hear China's helicopter fleet has low firepower, due to French roots. How does this compare? Pretty sure this was inspired by previous helicopter designs and experience, should get those Hinds and improve em


 
This helicopter is a multi-role helicopter, which, unlike the AH-64D, has the ability to engage both ground targets and participate in air-to-air missions. It emphasizes stealthiness and maneuverability over the AH-64.


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## no_name

I feel that the new planes and helis of PLA will now be tested in dark green colour scheme rather than yellow primer coatings. Does this represent a shift? The Z-10 was painted dark green. The the J-20 showed up and was pained dark green.

Is this the new paint scheme for future new aircrafts?


----------



## tanlixiang28776

no_name said:


> I feel that the new planes and helis of PLA will now be tested in dark green colour scheme rather than yellow primer coatings. Does this represent a shift? The Z-10 was painted dark green. The the J-20 showed up and was pained dark green.
> 
> Is this the new paint scheme for future new aircrafts?


 
They look pretty black to me.


----------



## Whiplash

localoca said:


> That's one big load of baloney


 
Are you a retard with IQ <35?
He has posted a lot of information justifying his claim. You post one emoticon and a one liner? If you wanna debunk him, prove it. Don't post cr@p one liners

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## gambit

Whiplash said:


> Are you a retard with IQ <35?
> He has posted a lot of information justifying his claim. You post one emoticon and a one liner? If you wanna debunk him, prove it. Don't post cr@p one liners


Notice that my explanation had nothing to do with China but with a characteristic that is common to all helos regardless of nationality. We should not be surprised at this kind of behavior but expect it.


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## Joe Shearer

localoca said:


> That's one big load of baloney


 
And that's a very irritating, irrational attack. If you have some logical arguments, you are welcome to trot them out. But somebody offers input, and you jump down his throat? What's that about?

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## krash

tkunk8 no need to be sorry mate and thanks allot for the pics!


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## fighter20

Wonderful pics.

Well done!

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## aimarraul

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1104/328229.html

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## mughaljee

All pictures are impressive.

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## BigTree.CN

Judging from the serial number painted on the helicopter body, I guess it enters into induction. 

But how long has it been inducted?


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## Akasa

BigTree.CN said:


> Judging from the serial number painted on the helicopter body, I guess it enters into induction.
> 
> But how long has it been inducted?



They were supposed to be inducted by 2008, but due to engine shortage, they had to push it back. The first pictures of the WZ-10 in service came out in 2010, but I guess if security was tight the induction was before that.


----------



## razgriz19

i think PA should just get these birds in future instead of waiting for new vipers...

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## razgriz19




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## pari.mehta

wow, looking great fellas, congrats china.
hope the sensor suite is up to par with the others in the market.


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## Chinese Century

Is the WZ-10 as technologically advanced as the AH-64D?


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## no_name

AH-64 seems to be a heavier class.


----------



## Akasa

Chinese Century said:


> Is the WZ-10 as technologically advanced as the AH-64D?


 
No. At least, not yet.

The AH-64D is specifically suited towards ground attack, and excels at that role. The WZ-10 is designed for multirole purposes, both against ground targets and against enemy helicopters. It's safe to say that the AH-64 is superior to the WZ-10 in ground attack capabilities while the WZ-10 has an edge in air-to-air and radar evading capabilities.

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## milvipes

Apple & orange: the WZ-10 was deisgned to be the Chinese equivalent of PAH-2 Tiger, which also replaced such lighter types as Gazelle & BO-105. The AH-64 did not replace the OH-6, the OH-58 did. Of course, there's always the possiblity that WZ-10 might be turned in to a dedicated anti-tank plaform, despite its lighter armour, should PLA decide to adopt WZ-19 concurrently.


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## aimarraul

NO.11

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## Akasa

aimarraul said:


> NO.11



Interesting. This one retains either the 25 mm autocannon developed for the Type 86 IFV or the 30 mm chain gun developed specifically for the WZ-10. It's interesting to see that they still prefer the large calibre chain guns, probably for their ability to punch through armor.

However, I believe that the WZ-10 can also be armed with the 14.5 mm Gatling gun:










I guess it depends on the mission of the helicopter. If they are going against tanks, they would be logical to use the 30 mm chain gun. If they are going against infantry and other vehicles, they would be logical to use the 14.5 mm Gatling gun.


----------



## no_name

Apparently the soviets favoured chain gun over gatling for their armoured helicopters. Because even though the gatling as a higher firing rate, it take a split second or so to spin up to full rate and there is approx half second delay from pressing the button to firing. While the single barrel chain gun can achieve near instant full rate (actually gatling is a subset of chain gun)

Their reasoning is that for heavy guns it is more improtant to get the first shot rather than getting many shots, particularly against other armoured helicopters. And also for ammunition conservation.

Also it is possible to have heavier caliber for single barrel as opposed to a mini gun setting, more importantly so for a heli like WZ-10 where both carrying weight and volume is limited.


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## shujah

i am in love with it...

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## Akasa

no_name said:


> Apparently the soviets favoured chain gun over gatling for their armoured helicopters. Because even though the gatling as a higher firing rate, it take a split second or so to spin up to full rate and there is approx half second delay from pressing the button to firing. While the single barrel chain gun can achieve near instant full rate (actually gatling is a subset of chain gun)
> 
> Their reasoning is that for heavy guns it is more improtant to get the first shot rather than getting many shots, particularly against other armoured helicopters. And also for ammunition conservation.
> 
> Also it is possible to have heavier caliber for single barrel as opposed to a mini gun setting, more importantly so for a heli like WZ-10 where both carrying weight and volume is limited.


 
It's also possible that the heavy calibre weapons are preferred mainly for their punch. I remember that the Bushmaster was in the bid for the WZ-10 gun. WZ-10 is mainly an anti-tank and anti-helicopter aircraft, so a chain gun fits its mission well.

However, Gatling guns can be used against infantry since a delay between the command and gun does not really matter.

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## no_name

That's what I'm referring to, firing rate will not matter if it can't punch through thicker armour.

(And just how fast do you need to fire for an object the size of tanks, plus chopper moves relatively slow, personally I would like a A-10 type plane  then space and loading would be not so much of an issue)
High rate of fire for aircrafts like A-10 is needed because they want to maximize distruction with a relatively short duration first pass.

For infantry they can be taken care of by side-mounted mini guns on normal chopper or ground mobile units. Rockets are also useful.


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## Akasa

no_name said:


> That's what I'm referring to, firing rate will not matter if it can't punch through thicker armour.
> 
> (And just how fast do you need to fire for an object the size of tanks, plus chopper moves relatively slow, personally I would like a A-10 type plane  then space and loading would be not so much of an issue)
> High rate of fire for aircrafts like A-10 is needed because they want to maximize distruction with a relatively short duration first pass.
> 
> For infantry they can be taken care of by side-mounted mini guns on normal chopper or ground mobile units. Rockets are also useful.



The A-10 uses the GAU-8A, which is a fast-firing cannon and also is of large calibre. However, it is extremely heavy, thus limiting it to be carried by heavy aircraft like the A-10. I would not compare the A-10 to a helicopter, since the A-10 is suited for fast-moving heavily armored targets that can be dealt with at long ranges. Helicopters are for situations where the enemy is not equipped with heavy weapons and does not have a strong anti-air capability. I would not worry too much about the loading of the WZ-10, since the hardpoints can also be converted to gun pods if necessary.

Speaking of Gatling guns, they would be really useful against anti-helicopter missions, since their fast rate of fire compensates for the speed of the enemy. Enemy helicopters also do not bear as armor as tanks and armored vehicles, thus eliminating the need for large calibre cannons.

But again, there's the AC-130 if things get wild, but let's not go there. *shudder*

Infantry is suitable for rockets only if they are relatively clustered. Infantry that are spread out are dealt with machine guns for economical reasons.

I believe Huitong mentioned that China is developing a close attack aircraft dubbed the Q-6, but I highly doubt this is likely.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What a fantastic piece of machinery , I thought it was Apache for a second


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

By the way what is this strange coating on the helicopter's glass windows ?? Anti reflective coatings? its giving off this weired reflection


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## no_name

If one side of the glass is significantly brighter than the other side, then the bright side would see mainly reflections, and the dark side will see through mainly.

In this case I think the chromatic pattern is cause by the varying curvature and thickness of the glass (the panels are not flat so the reflective index is changing)


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## no_name

Abracadabra...high def. !

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## Akasa

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> By the way what is this strange coating on the helicopter's glass windows ?? Anti reflective coatings? its giving off this weired reflection


 
The colors are due to thin film interference, where certain wavelengths of color cancel each other out due to the thickness of the layer and other wavelengths of color become brighter.

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## aimarraul

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1104/331361.html

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## no_name

Looks like it's definitely in mass production.


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## rAli

I don't know if its the high def pics but the production is so good that WZ-10 pics look like CG. 
Kudos to China for finishing another great military project.

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## fatman17

*Z-10* 

A first glimpse of an Army Aviation Z-10 attack helicopter is shown here. Co-developed by the 602 Institute, CHAIC and HAMC as the first dedicated modern attack helicopter for PLA Army Aviation since 1998, Z-10 is generally believed in the same class as South African Rooviak and Italian A129, yet still not as capable as American AH-64 Apache. The helicoter adopes a standard gunship configuration featuring a narrow fuselage and stepped tandem cockpits with the gunner in the frontseat and the pilot in the backseat. The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond cross section to reduce RCS. It also have a 5-blade main rotor made of composite material and an AH-64 style 4-blade tail rotor. All the vital areas of the fuselage including the cockpit and fuel tanks are believed to be protected by the armor plates. It weighs about 5.5 tons and was powered initially by two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines (rated @ 1,250kW each). However domestic developed engines (upgrated WZ-9?) are being used in production batches dueto the embargo imposed by the west. Its rotor and transmission systems may have been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter France and Agusta. Its weapon system may consist of up to 8 KD-8 ATGMs in box launchers under the stub wings and a 23 cannon mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted sight. Furthermore PL-90 AAMs can be carried against enemy helicopters and slow-moving fixed wing aircraft. It can also carry 8 newly developed KD-10 ATGMs in the same class of AGM-114 Hellfire. Similar to AH-64, Z-10 features nose mounted PNVS and TVDS housing FLIR, TV camera, laser range finder and designator. RWR and radar jammer antennas are installed on both sides of the forward and aft fuselage. In addition, a laser warning receiver is installed on top of the pylon on each side. The helicopter may also be fitted with an integrated communication/navigation system, a comprehensive ECM suite, IFF, chaff/flare launchers, 1553B databus, and a glass cockpit. 2 prototypes were built in 2003 and 6 more were built in 2004. The first flight of 02 prototype took place on April 29, 2003. Several Z-10 prototypes powered by PT6C-76C engine were evaluated by the Army by 2007. In 2009 it was reported that an "optimized" version (Z-10A?) was under developemnt and expected to enter the mass production. This version is powered by the less powerful WZ-9 engines (~1,000kW) thus has its weight reduced by eliminating certain parts such as less armor protection and smaller weapon load. So far at least 12 Z-10s of the first batch have entered the service with PLA Army Aviation (S/N LH951xx). 

- Last Updated 4/29/11

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## houshanghai



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## fatman17

*This version is powered by the less powerful WZ-9 engines (~1,000kW) thus has its weight reduced by eliminating certain parts such as less armor protection and smaller weapon load. So far at least 12 Z-10s of the first batch have entered the service with PLA Army Aviation*

according to the article, the engine is a 'problem'!


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## Lankan Ranger

*Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter publicly appeared in military exercise *

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## khanz4996

awsome beast in the sky

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## Lankan Ranger



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## khanz4996

we will get wz10 bye bye to apache

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## SinoChallenger

Now that WZ-10A is mass produced, PLA is the most powerful ground forces in the world. South Korea, Vietnam and India can see waves and waves of WZ-10A approaching their borders.

The very newest Apache AH-64D is probably a bit better than WZ-10A, but other than USA, no country can purchase enough quantity to possibly match PLA forces.

It would be best if China can navalize the WZ-10A and put it on an LHD.

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## Heinz89

khanz4996 said:


> we will get wz10 bye bye to apache



What?? this AH 64A Apache

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## RockyX

SinoChallenger said:


> *Now that WZ-10A is mass produced, PLA is the most powerful ground forces in the world. South Korea, Vietnam and India can see waves and waves of WZ-10A approaching their borders.*
> 
> The very newest Apache AH-64D is probably a bit better than WZ-10A, but other than USA, no country can purchase enough quantity to possibly match PLA forces.
> 
> It would be best if China can navalize the WZ-10A and put it on an LHD.




Hahhaha. Joke of the day. WZ-10A is simple attack heli. We will have our own 300 LCH/ALH attack heli like that.

We will be operating Apache AH-64 Block 2,3. Your Attack heli looks like a kid in front of Apache and you are gonna rule the world with that ??

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## nomi007

khanz4996 said:


> we will get wz10 bye bye to apache


its Apache not wz-10

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## china hyperpower

RockyX said:


> Hahhaha. Joke of the day. WZ-10A is simple attack heli. We will have our own 300 LCH/ALH attack heli like that.
> 
> We will be operating Apache AH-64 Block 2,3. Your Attack heli looks like a kid in front of Apache and you are gonna rule the world with that ??



indians dont make their own weapons.
that why india imports everything.
indians lack the technical knowledge to make such weapons.

we dont have plans to rule the world, just india.
we like using india as our punching bag, like in 1962.

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## Akasa

RockyX said:


> Hahhaha. Joke of the day. WZ-10A is simple attack heli. We will have our own 300 LCH/ALH attack heli like that.
> 
> We will be operating Apache AH-64 Block 2,3. Your Attack heli looks like a kid in front of Apache and you are gonna rule the world with that ??



There are 2 LCH, not 300.

The Apache has a big weapons load, but it is not a multirole helicopter. It is non stealthy and its size would not put it at an agility advantage over the WZ-10. WZ-10 is able to eliminate both air and ground targets while the Apache is limited to ground targets with low air defense. If WZ-10 and Apache ever meet, the Apache would not be able to win a fight against the stealthier, agile WZ-10.

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## gambit

SinoSoldier said:


> There are 2 LCH, not 300.
> 
> The Apache has a big weapons load, but it is not a multirole helicopter. It is non stealthy and its size would not put it at an agility advantage over the WZ-10. WZ-10 is able to eliminate both air and ground targets while the Apache is limited to ground targets with low air defense. If WZ-10 and Apache ever meet, the Apache would not be able to win a fight against the *stealthier, agile WZ-10.*


Good propaganda. Only Chinese would believe it.

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## china hyperpower

gambit said:


> Good propaganda. Only Chinese would believe it.



WZ-10 would easily beat the apache.


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## Viva_Viet

SinoChallenger said:


> Now that WZ-10A is mass produced, PLA is the most powerful ground forces in the world. South Korea, Vietnam and India can see waves and waves of WZ-10A approaching their borders.
> 
> The very newest Apache AH-64D is probably a bit better than WZ-10A, but other than USA, no country can purchase enough quantity to possibly match PLA forces.
> 
> It would be best if China can navalize the WZ-10A and put it on an LHD.


Sorry to interrupt your dream, but No one give a damn care about your low-tech quality helicopter , with this Super weapon all of your air craft will bite the dust


> What Can These New Superweapons Do?
> 
> 1. Exothermic mode
> In what is called an "exothermic mode" the howitzers can cause a blast of heat at the interference zone, an explosion of near-nuclear proportions. It could topple buildings and cause other destruction. Or it could be set wide and heat the atmosphere in that region. Or it could be set to simply destroy all electronics in that interference (target) zone, or to destroy the hubs of the electric power grids of a very wide area. Although it seems unbelievable, the actual energy of the blast is not traveling through space to hit the target, but actually being made to emerge from the local vacuum in the interference (target) zone.
> 
> *Using the exothermic mode it is possible to make any airplane drop from the sky, anywhere. It is possible to destroy any missile, in its flight path or in its silo.* Bearden sites many instances of downed planes he believes were tests of the scalar weapons. (Gandor, Newfoundland)


Will Iraq Be World's First Electromagnetic 'Scalar' War?

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## Xracer

NIce keep it up bothers
i hope will get these nice sexy beasts

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## Stealth

RockyX said:


> Hahhaha. Joke of the day. WZ-10A is simple attack heli. We will have our own 300 LCH/ALH attack heli like that.
> 
> We will be operating Apache AH-64 Block 2,3. Your Attack heli looks like a kid in front of Apache and you are gonna rule the world with that ??



American Military also said about Taliban is "we have this and we have that and SUPER DUPER Technology and Taliban you... looks like a kid in front of us" 

After 10 years SUPER POWER (not 3rd world country) nee down in front of Taliban.

"technology is *****"


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## gambit

Stealth said:


> American Military also said about Taliban is "we have this and we have that and SUPER DUPER Technology and Taliban you... looks like a kid in front of us"
> 
> After 10 years SUPER POWER (not 3rd world country) nee down in front of Taliban.
> 
> "technology is *****"


We are in Afghanistan. Where are the Taliban in the US? Camels and donkeys taking the long way around to get here?

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------




china hyperpower said:


> WZ-10 would easily beat the apache.


The Apache is combat proven. The wizzz-10 is not. You guys are still wizzing about it.

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## khanz4996

nomi007 said:


> its Apache not wz-10


looks like apache not apache its wz 10


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## nomi007

Turkish tai-129 attack helo is better than wz-10

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## cirr



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## cirr

WZ-19s &#65288;and others&#65289;found at an Army Aviation Base under the Chengdu Military Command&#65306;

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNDYwNjI5OTI0/v.swf


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## mosu

nice pictures dear carry on brother

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## Nishan_101

cirr said:


>



Its Cobra of 21st Century. But PAA want 30 Z-10P. INSHA ALLAH.

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## cirr

Nishan_101 said:


> Its Cobra of 21st Century. But PAA want 30 Z-10P. INSHA ALLAH.



Your wish is granted!

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## sweetgrape

WZ-19 is much cheaper than WZ-10, WZ-19 combine the new technology from WZ-10 and airframe of WZ-9, WZ-19 will be manufactured in mass production.
For PLA, the WZ-10 is expensive and more important thing is that it need time to be proven and improve.

And Frankly, I doubt that the present engine we develop can give WZ-10 encough power, I believe the new engine is on the way, but we need time, from the news be divulged indirectly, I think it will be soon!

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## jnd3x0

Nishan_101 said:


> Its Cobra of 21st Century. But PAA want 30 Z-10P. INSHA ALLAH.



Imo what PA really wants is to to get itself out of this WOT and then think about such stuff.


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## bhisma

Why that little window on left side of cockpit ?? Air circulation ??
.
.
BTW, good finishing.. And can someone post its specs..?

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## Varunastra

looks stealthy....nice

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## khail007

bhisma said:


> Why that little window on left side of cockpit ?? Air circulation ??
> .
> .
> BTW, good finishing.. And can someone post its specs..?



IMO pilots are also used to Pan/Naswar/Gutkas; so may be purposely built...

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## no_koadsheding_plz

any resemblance with the one heli used in OBL mission in abbottabad ?


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## SQ8

Nishan_101 said:


> Its Cobra of 21st Century. But PAA want 30 Z-10P. INSHA ALLAH.



Who told you that?
On what basis?

The PA is perfectly happy with its order for AH-1Z and would still prefer more of them or T-129s.

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Who told you that?
> On what basis?
> 
> The PA is perfectly happy with its order for AH-1Z and would still prefer more of them or T-129s.



So, they are still coming? The Zulu cobras? Export restriction is to be lifted in 2013 right?


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## karan21

nuclearpak said:


> So, they are still coming? The Zulu cobras? Export restriction is to be lifted in 2013 right?



Helicopter looks good. It will be good to compare it with other helicopters once it gets operational.


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## Jango

karan21 said:


> Helicopter looks good. It will be good to compare it with other helicopters once it gets operational.



It was declared operational in Sep 2010 after operational evaluation lasting a couple of years. So it should be operational now.


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> So, they are still coming? The Zulu cobras? Export restriction is to be lifted in 2013 right?



Yes, We should be among the first to get them.


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## Kompromat

Where is cannon ?



Oscar said:


> Yes, We should be among the first to get them.



How many? What about old Cobra's upgrade to Turkish UMTAS ATGM ?


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## SQ8

Aeronaut said:


> Where is cannon ?
> 
> 
> 
> How many? What about old Cobra's upgrade to Turkish UMTAS ATGM ?


Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report

That is the latest on official links

The grapevine suggests that the AH-1F's will simply be used until they are no longer capable of service.

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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report
> 
> That is the latest on official links
> 
> The grapevine suggests that the AH-1F's will simply be used until they are no longer capable of service.



It says, 20 new Zulus. But that will come with no TOT, Pakistan instead should opt for T-129.


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## SQ8

Aeronaut said:


> It says, 20 new Zulus. But that will come with no TOT, Pakistan instead should opt for T-129.



Unfortunately, the procurement guys that gave the ok for this have been too superficial in their selection overview in terms of only seeing the benefit that FMF will get them when it comes to buying hardware.
They don't realize that the Cobra Viper is an ENTIRELY new machine which will require a complete training of all personnel involved and is also NOT sanction proof.
The short term benefit of a freebie has clouded their judgement.

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## Luftwaffe

Oscar said:


> Who told you that? On what basis?
> 
> The PA is perfectly happy with its order for AH-1Z and would still prefer more of them or T-129s.



PA Future is AH-1Z Zulu Cobras but PA also needs to diversify equipment-weapons towards non-western feasible cost per unit Gunships.

Flightglobal says AH-1Z costs $27M per unit [don't believe in wiki], we can imagine T-129 Gunships cost per unit could be as much as $35M. 

Would it be feasible from PA's budget point of view to procure T-129s. AH-1Z delivery could commence by 2016+ to PA; by the Time Z-10 would be in position to offer something substantial including perhaps better price per unit. It has been 9 Years for WZ-10 4-6 Years is enough to roll out updated production models. Ofcourse unless PA had unlimited budget T-129 would be the right choice, looking down upon Z-10 would be a mistake after all we are operating Z-9s for Navy we could have procured western platforms, couldn't we.

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## Nishan_101

sweetgrape said:


> WZ-19 is much cheaper than WZ-10, WZ-19 combine the new technology from WZ-10 and airframe of WZ-9, WZ-19 will be manufactured in mass production.
> For PLA, the WZ-10 is expensive and more important thing is that it need time to be proven and improve.
> 
> And Frankly, I doubt that the present engine we develop can give WZ-10 encough power, I believe the new engine is on the way, but we need time, from the news be divulged indirectly, I think it will be soon!



You might be right for PLA but not for PAA, we need Z-10P like Helicopters and for engine problem we can(INSHA ALLAH we will) get better engines from Russia for them and buying 30 of them will not cost as much as buying 30 ATAK. By the way please elaborate in detail about the cost of each Z-10???



jnd3x0 said:


> Imo what PA really wants is to to get itself out of this WOT and then think about such stuff.



But we don't know about this, may be the deal has been done.

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## Nishan_101

Oscar said:


> Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report
> 
> That is the latest on official links
> 
> The grapevine suggests that the AH-1F's will simply be used until they are no longer capable of service.




That's truth!!!



Oscar said:


> Unfortunately, the procurement guys that gave the ok for this have been too superficial in their selection overview in terms of only seeing the benefit that *FMF* will get them when it comes to buying hardware.
> They don't realize that the Cobra Viper is an ENTIRELY new machine which will require a complete training of all personnel involved and is also NOT sanction proof.
> The short term benefit of a freebie has clouded their judgement.



Means these are funded by US?


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## Type 052D

Rhis helicopter is useful for allies like Pakistan or Sir lanka. How it could be used as a AH for light infantry forces and provide CAS and AT missions with Cheaper value while the WZ-10 gets involved with the real deal.

It light so it gotta be a naval version of WZ-10 and help marines from LHD


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Frankly I don't like the look, why can we make this WZ-19 better than Comanche ..since we put our money into this project


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## April.lyrics

considering its size and engine,i'd like to compare wz-19 to OH-1.
(Kawasaki OH-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

maybe wz-19 has a better attack capability than oh-1,it cannot match ah-1 in this area.

one thing which seems to be obvious is wz-19 is a complement of wz-10. wz-19 has low cost and is more feasible for our current technic ability.if we could,we may just go for a heavier one like AH-64D.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

April.lyrics said:


> considering its size and engine,i'd like to compare wz-19 to OH-1.
> (Kawasaki OH-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> maybe wz-19 has a better attack capability than oh-1,it cannot match ah-1 in this area.
> 
> one thing which seems to be obvious is wz-19 is a complement of wz-10. wz-19 has low cost and is more feasible for our current technic ability.if we could,we may just go for a heavier one like AH-64D.



Japanese OH-1 is a joke...that's due to the restriction of American, they're force to scale down the look of attack helicopter to OH-1, but we chinese are not, we have all freedom of design...we have to do the best of the best...design a just good enough concept of military hardware is a wasted of money.

no offense.


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## Tshering22

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately, the procurement guys that gave the ok for this have been too superficial in their selection overview in terms of only seeing the benefit that FMF will get them when it comes to buying hardware.
> They don't realize that the Cobra Viper is an ENTIRELY new machine which will require a complete training of all personnel involved and is also NOT sanction proof.
> 
> *The short term benefit of a freebie has clouded their judgement.*



I doubt that is the case, mate. Usually in our countries, a lot of money exchanges hands and naturally in this case as well, I am sure that it would have happened.

Now I am not being complacent but the only reason our military opted for LCH en masse is because no other attack helicopter in the world currently offers that kind of endurance in Himalayan conditions and that it is based on a tried and tested (Dhruv) platform. 

Otherwise, even our ministers would have chosen some foreign made gunship with fat commissions to Anthony and his Italian owner.

It is a disease in entire South Asia.

As for T-129s, Turkey has ordered those modifications for itself. It has to take AW's clearance. Let's face it; AgustaWestland would definitely want to reap the contract themselves rather than just let the Turks profit. There is bound to be some condition attached for re-exporting here. 

Correct me if I am wrong but the AH-1Z is being offered at a much competitive pricing than what it would ideally cost a western attack helo, for you due to WOT and all. Or is it something else?



jnd3x0 said:


> Imo what PA really wants is to to get itself out of this WOT and then think about such stuff.



Well to get out of this WOT, you will first need to fight your demons which are right now sitting right inside your territory. For that, you need attack helicopters which you're in shortage of big time. 

Right now, what PA needs is some serious CAS gunships.


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## Tshering22

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Japanese OH-1 is a joke...that's due to the restriction of American, they're force to scale down the look of attack helicopter to OH-1, but we chinese are not, we have all freedom of design...we have to do the best of the best...design a just good enough concept of military hardware is a wasted of money.
> 
> no offense.



I will have to agree here. The OH-1 isn't even an attack helicopter. They built a design for a gunship and ended up with a light patrol/scout helicopter that can carry payload only for recon missions. I found it very strange that they didn't further develop it into an attack helicopters despite being capable of doing it.

Are you sure it is because of US restrictions? I mean Japanese have designed MBTs and other more serious weapons. What can developing a gunship do to US? 

It is not like Japanese use significant US attack helicopters anyway. Their AH-1 s are going to be outdated soon and will require new platforms and still they're not making their own helos.

Weird, if you ask me.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

If Japanese has the freedom of design without American interference, I bet they will build the best of the best and put the latest technologies into the design such as F-2, initially they want to design their own F-2 but under American pressure, they have to use F-16 as the foundation for F-2 but also forced to share their latest technologies with Americans.

As chinese I'm not trying to brag or trumphet Japanese's greatness, if China want to be sucess in our own military development, we have to aim to design with "*best of the best*" concept eventhough we're lagging behind western countries in many aspects...Take example of J-20 or J-31, they're not equal to F-22 or F-35 of American but we were aiming high on the design and to development that somehtings Chinese can be proud of.

But WZ-19 is seriously a joke, we just make a slim body of the Z-9, nothing revolutionary, we could have use American's AH-66 Comanche as reference points of design and develop further Chinese light attchack helicopter concept...but just try to get someting fast and less risky is not alway the way to go. Basically what i'm geting at is "don't put resource just to developt "*just good enought*" design...it's a total waste...that will never survive in the high tech battlefield.


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## Luftwaffe

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> But WZ-19 is seriously a joke, we just make a slim body of the Z-9, nothing revolutionary, we could have use American's AH-66 Comanche as reference points of design and develop further Chinese light attack helicopter concept...but just try to get something fast and less risky is not alway the way to go. Basically what i'm getting at is "don't put resource just to development "*just good enough*" design...it's a total waste...that will never survive in the high tech battlefield.



Have you read about AH-66, I Think you should read about it why it was cancelled. Have you seen AH-1 with slimline design and the power it packs.

China needs something like AH-64 And AH-1 side by side, therefore Z-19 is going into right direction give sometime. Alot is to be done regarding Engine-Armour-payload...

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Luftwaffe said:


> Have you read about AH-66, I Think you should read about it why it was cancelled. Have you seen AH-1 with slimline design and the power it packs.
> 
> China needs something like AH-64 And AH-1 side by side, therefore Z-19 is going into right direction give sometime. Alot is to be done regarding Engine-Armour-payload...



I think cost this the reason that Ah-66 is been cancelled I could be wrong but we can inspire the steathy concept of the Comanche to develop ZW-19 as how we inspire F-22 and F-35 DSI configuration to layout our J-20 and J-31.


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## fallstuff

khail007 said:


> IMO pilots are also used to Pan/Naswar/Gutkas; so may be purposely built...



You just bring along a little cup to spit into.

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## peep

folks just building a castle on thin air ?? WHat are the specs ?


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## Desert Fox

Oscar said:


> Who told you that?
> On what basis?
> 
> The PA is perfectly happy with its order for AH-1Z and would still prefer more of them or T-129s.


Looks like our military is still interested in buy sanction prone military equipment.


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## Tshering22

Desert Fox said:


> Looks like our military is still interested in buy sanction prone military equipment.



So you want to dismantle your entire military infrastructure meant for AH-1s just on the probability that you may be sanctioned? 

Your Army is used to the AH-1s for years. 

How will Zardari justify the cost to dismantle the maintenance, supply, spares infrastructure, the cost to re-setup everything of a new gunship, train those already experienced pilots afresh in a new platform etc? 

If he says that there MAY be a sanction possible, then your opposition will murder him for just that word "may".


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## Tshering22

If a member can post its specifications, it'd be of great help to further discuss the helicopters here. 

Thanks.


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## Type 052D

Kiss of the dragon is right, this a poor effort of the military industrial complex. PLA needs to upgrade the Ground forces Avation capability. No Chinese equavilant to UH-60, CH-47 or even a AH-64


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## terranMarine

Type 052D said:


> Kiss of the dragon is right, this a poor effort of the military industrial complex. PLA needs to upgrade the Ground forces Avation capability. No Chinese equavilant to UH-60, CH-47 or even a AH-64



I don't think an equivalent to a Chinook is really needed at the moment as we have AC313 for troop transportation. Alternative choppers for UH-60 and Apache is desirable, even the Russians have an awesome attack helicopter Mi-28


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## fab78

China is moving fast, very very fast! Impressive!

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## mjnaushad

seems like a prototype.... no 20mm cannon?


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## TaimiKhan

mjnaushad said:


> seems like a prototype.... no 20mm cannon?



It most probably is for scouting purposes. Just like what the Kiowa platform does in the US Army.


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## Luftwaffe

TaimiKhan said:


> It most probably is for scouting purposes. Just like what the Kiowa platform does in the US Army.



For the purpose of scouting Z-11WA/J Variants are used.

Let me add for forum members, I found this Chinese unidentified Helicopter, an interesting find.

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## TaimiKhan

Luftwaffe said:


> For the purpose of scouting Z-11WA/J Variants are used.
> 
> Let me add for forum members, I found this Chinese unidentified Helicopter, an interesting find.



Z-11 is the current platform, which is basically a transport platform changed into an armed one as stop gap measure. 

Future platform are gonna be WZ-10 (dedicated armed helicopter) & WZ-19 (light armed scout helicopter)


And the pic you are referring to is a photo shopped picture of a during testing AC 313 transport helicopter. Nothing original.

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## Luftwaffe

TaimiKhan said:


> Z-11 is the current platform, which is basically a transport platform changed into an armed one as stop gap measure.
> 
> Future platform are gonna be WZ-10 (dedicated armed helicopter) & WZ-19 (light armed scout helicopter)
> 
> And the pic you are referring to is a photo shopped picture of a during testing AC 313 transport helicopter. Nothing original.



I did mention Z-11 Variant is being used as scout. China is operating multiple Variants of Z-9/Z-11 in certain different roles. In Future Z-10/Z-19 with have their own dedicated Role obviously. 

Z-11 will run side by side in variants from scout platform to surveillance recon ground attack. Since Z-11 are less Expensive to deploy with certain functions-capabilities, Z-11s are more expendable fleet and less expensive to operate/deploy. Highly doubt if the platform would be replaced it would run side by side with other Fleet of Gunships like Z-10/Z-19. Perhaps the replacement could be Z-9 variant but would still be more expensive that is $2-3M Z-11 against $10-12M.

Did not say it's original said interesting find an unidentified helo which obviously I didn't know is PS.


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## Nishan_101

Soon to see Z-15 in Pak Military use.


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## TaimiKhan

Nishan_101 said:


> Soon to see Z-15 in Pak Military use.



The soon you are talking about is not gonna materialize atleast in the next 10 years.

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## Desert Fox

Tshering22 said:


> So you want to dismantle your entire military infrastructure meant for AH-1s just on the probability that you may be sanctioned?
> 
> Your Army is used to the AH-1s for years.
> 
> How will Zardari justify the cost to dismantle the maintenance, supply, spares infrastructure, the cost to re-setup everything of a new gunship, train those already experienced pilots afresh in a new platform etc?
> 
> If he says that there MAY be a sanction possible, then your opposition will murder him for just that word "may".



Why not?

I remember a while back i was watching a English interview of Musharraf in which he mentioned that pre-2001 American arms embargo up upliftment, PA only had one attack chopper in operable condition, most probably because the rest were cannibalized. 

If we can operate JF-17 along with F-16 then why does it not make sense that we can operate another platform alongside the AH-1's? Who said we are going to ditch the AH-1's all together and replace them with a new system?


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## hk299792458

Just for my information, is there any plan from Pak MoD to get a bigger ship for force projection use, like the new 20000t class LHD dedicated for exportation?


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## cirr

After the 8th Army Aviation Brigade&#65292;the 2nd also gets the Z-19&#65306;


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## Kompromat

Why there is no Cannon on Z-19 ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Aeronaut said:


> Why there is no Cannon on Z-19 ?



Someone has explained it's more of a scout helicopter.

The other medium attack helicopter is the dedicated attack helicopter.


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## Tshering22

Desert Fox said:


> Why not?
> 
> I remember a while back i was watching a English interview of Musharraf in which he mentioned that pre-2001 American arms embargo up upliftment, PA only had one attack chopper in operable condition, most probably because the rest were cannibalized.



The geo-politics since Musharaf's era has long changed. If you're thinking that in today's condition US will sanction you, then you're wrong. Let's say you've got 5-6 years of time till a possible hypothetical sanction. I am sure that your engineers at PAC by now are enough aware to develop spares for the aircraft. I may be wrong of course.



> If we can operate JF-17 along with F-16 then why does it not make sense that we can operate another platform alongside the AH-1's? Who said we are going to ditch the AH-1's all together and replace them with a new system?



The requirement of fixed wing assets in any air force is much higher than that of rotary wing. Operating multiple platforms costs a bomb even if individually these platforms may be cost effective. I tell this from our country's experience. 

The AH-1s you use are ancient similar to the Hinds that we use. Even with upgrading them, you'll only have a few years at your hands. Which means that you have to look out for new batches of AH-1Z Vipers which are the latest editions of the gunship.


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## Tshering22

Water Car Engineer said:


> Someone has explained it's more of a scout helicopter.
> 
> The other medium attack helicopter is the dedicated attack helicopter.



But what is the use of a scout helicopter that cannot be used for light transports simultaneously?

I mean look at the Kiowa Warrior project by Bell. It has enough firepower to be a scout helicopter and at the same time can transport one or two more injured soldiers of a special forces unit. 

Don't you think that putting in money for a tandem seater scout helicopter is a waste? Considering that the Japanese projects OH-1 has come under a lot of criticism not just from us and the Chinese but also even some Japanese, I think it ain't wise.


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## cirr




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## Alfa-Fighter

which engine it uses to fly ?

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## cabatli_53

Tshering22 said:


> As for T-129s, Turkey has ordered those modifications for itself. It has to take AW's clearance. Let's face it; AgustaWestland would definitely want to reap the contract themselves rather than just let the Turks profit. There is bound to be some condition attached for re-exporting here.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but the AH-1Z is being offered at a much competitive pricing than what it would ideally cost a western attack helo, for you due to WOT and all. Or is it something else?



For T-129 Atak program, Turkish (TAI-Aselsan) and Italian(Agusta-Westland) institutes signed a collaboration agreement and established ATAK team. There are two Atak offices in world, One is in Turkey, Another one is in Italy. There are many other Turkish institutes such as Roketsan, Alp, TEI...etc working for Atak team as well. TAI's ownership and the work shares of institutes to be participated into manufacturing process is clear, Even If Atak is being exported to domestic/foreign country. I mean Agusta can't export T-129 Atak without TAI as equal risk share owner of Atak program. Anyhow, If you pay attention to tender(S. korea) T-129 Atak participated, It is only TAI, actively working to export it (As owner of intellectual and property right of Atak helo).

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## Chanakyaa

HongWu said:


> China has mastered modern turbofan technology. Z-10A uses the indigenous turbofshaft.
> 
> I've never seen an Indian designed avionics system and combat sensors. You will see LCA in service long before LCH. *India is trying to go from making nothing to making a combat helicopter. That is impossible.*



You Must Improve Your Reading Habits/Knowledge ... MKI Uses Indian Avionics. MKI has been produced since past Decade.

Should we doubt China Building an AirCraft Carrier from Nothing ?






> It should be comparable to Eurocopter Tiger.
> Those numbers are all made up by the Indian media or the government. *India hasn't even made a simple helicopter by itself or even made its own avionics.* You will need to see LCA in service first long before India makes its own combat helicopter. But China has a really advanced one already.
> Since China makes its own Z-10A, it can order thousands or even more as long as it has the budget.



Ignirance at its best.

Guess This was courierd to Indians by BigFoot !

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## ChineseLuver

wow,replying to a 2010 post good going


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## Chanakyaa

ChineseLuver said:


> wow,replying to a 2010 post good going



Its a Noble Idea to Correct History. And Enlighten the Ignirmant.

PS : It Just Popped up in my Search Result as an Updated Thread !

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## sweetgrape

ChineseLuver said:


> wow,replying to a 2010 post good going


HEHE, At least do it before 2020.
And, too many displays, don't know whether the pilot can focus? I had seen such much display in a cockpit of passenger jet, Why do not they intergrate them?
Am I ignorant?


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## Beast

WZ-10 operational helo in action...

Chinese military helicopter Z-10 in action

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## Luftwaffe

Beast said:


> WZ-10 operational helo in action...
> 
> Chinese military helicopter Z-10 in action



Was going to post it but you post is First. A Thread closed on T-129/Z-10 for Pakistan Army. So looking at these Helos being operational takes the lead from T-129 so in the future Pakistan cannot neglect evaluating of Z-10s but only in the Future.

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## cirr

Where is the 1diot who thinks there are only a couple of Z-10s in service&#65311;











Z-10s with the Nanjing Military Region in regular training&#12290;

China is NOT India which is into habitual boasting about something that may or may not happen years from when the announcement is made&#12290;

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## bloo

SinoSoldier said:


> the Apache would not be able to win a fight against the stealthier, agile WZ-10.


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## 帅的一匹

nomi007 said:


> Turkish tai-129 attack helo is better than wz-10


Might be now, might not be in the future. You could go for 3 WZ-10 instead of 1 AT-129.


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## 帅的一匹

bloo said:


>


We had studied the American stealthy helicopter crashed at Bin Lander's house. Credit to Pakistan



gambit said:


> We are in Afghanistan. Where are the Taliban in the US? Camels and donkeys taking the long way around to get here?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------
> 
> 
> The Apache is combat proven. The wizzz-10 is not. You guys are still wizzing about it.


Amercian tech is not that sharp as you guys bragging about.....You could only scare countries like Afganistan and Iraq. We are not afraid of you, a round made in China put in your head sure will end you pathetic life. In those fiction movie, you could defeat Aliens but not China in the real world.

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## qwerrty

> Quote Originally Posted by nomi007 View Post
> Turkish tai-129 attack helo is better than wz-10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might be now, might not be in the future. You could go for 3 WZ-10 instead of 1 AT-129.
Click to expand...




z-10 with wz16 engines would put it in class below only Ah-64 and ka-52


----------



## 帅的一匹

No one could defeat China, even the rest combination of west countries.

still remember how many countries fighted PLA in Korean war, that is 17 nations. It just lead to a tie even the enemy was nuke capable.


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## giant panda




----------



## UKBengali

bloo said:


>




People miss the point when saying Apache is "better" than WZ-10.

It is not the same as F-22 versus J-20 as the two helicopters are not designed to fight each other.

The whole purpose of the 2 helicopters is to destroy armour as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

Currently the Apache has an advantage as it can carry 16 anti-tank missiles as compared to 8 on the WZ-10.

When the new engine is installed on the WZ-10, then it will also be able to carry 16 anti-tank missiles.

With the new engine, the WZ-10 will be indeed a "better" helicopter than the Apache as it will be able to almost anything that an Apache can do but at a much reduced cost.

Looks like China is indeed winning the "bang for buck" war with the US.

And the result for India will be dire as it will have to purchase a much more costlier helicopter that may only be marginally effective than the cheaper domestic Chinese version.


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## Wright

UKBengali said:


> People miss the point when saying Apache is "better" than WZ-10.
> 
> It is not the same as F-22 versus J-20 as the two helicopters are not designed to fight each other.
> 
> The whole purpose of the 2 helicopters is to destroy armour as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
> 
> Currently the Apache has an advantage as it can carry 16 anti-tank missiles as compared to 8 on the WZ-10.
> 
> When the new engine is installed on the WZ-10, then it will also be able to carry 16 anti-tank missiles.
> 
> With the new engine, the WZ-10 will be indeed a "better" helicopter than the Apache as it will be able to almost anything that an Apache can do but at a much reduced cost.
> 
> *Looks like China is indeed winning the "bang for buck" war with the US*.
> 
> And the result for India will be dire as it will have to purchase a much more costlier helicopter that may only be marginally effective than the cheaper domestic Chinese version.



Russians have been doing that longer. We know how their equipment stood against their Western counterparts.


----------



## Wright

UKBengali said:


> People miss the point when saying Apache is "better" than WZ-10.
> 
> It is not the same as F-22 versus J-20 as the two helicopters are not designed to fight each other.
> 
> The whole purpose of the 2 helicopters is to destroy armour as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
> 
> Currently the Apache has an advantage as it can carry 16 anti-tank missiles as compared to 8 on the WZ-10.
> 
> When the new engine is installed on the WZ-10, then it will also be able to carry 16 anti-tank missiles.
> 
> With the new engine, the WZ-10 will be indeed a "better" helicopter than the Apache as it will be able to almost anything that an Apache can do but at a much reduced cost.
> 
> *Looks like China is indeed winning the "bang for buck" war with the US*.
> 
> And the result for India will be dire as it will have to purchase a much more costlier helicopter that may only be marginally effective than the cheaper domestic Chinese version.



Russians have been doing that longer. We know how their equipment stood against their Western counterparts.

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## 帅的一匹

Don't compare china weapon with Russian ones.........


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## karan21

..........................


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## bloo

UKBengali said:


> People miss the point when saying Apache is "better" than WZ-10.
> 
> It is not the same as F-22 versus J-20 as the two helicopters are not designed to fight each other.
> 
> The whole purpose of the 2 helicopters is to destroy armour as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
> 
> Currently the Apache has an advantage as it can carry 16 anti-tank missiles as compared to 8 on the WZ-10.
> 
> When the new engine is installed on the WZ-10, then it will also be able to carry 16 anti-tank missiles.
> 
> With the new engine, the WZ-10 will be indeed a "better" helicopter than the Apache as it will be able to almost anything that an Apache can do but at a much reduced cost.
> 
> Looks like China is indeed winning the "bang for buck" war with the US.
> 
> And the result for India will be dire as it will have to purchase a much more costlier helicopter that may only be marginally effective than the cheaper domestic Chinese version.



It's exactly what people are thinking, mind when people compare 2 weapons it is to see which one performs better regardless of whether they face each other or no.

Its not just the engines that decide every outcome of a battle.
The radar and the armaments are equally responsible.
It remains to be seen how good the YH radar is against the AN/APG-78
or the tried and tested HELL-FIRE missile against the HJ-10.

In short the Apache has too much experience to be "bettered" by an untried platform like the WZ-10.

Its good China is trying but they are yet to prove its mettle against the best in the business.

India is inducting Apache now, which is better than the current WZ-10, we already have Mi-24 which is also better than the WZ-10, so it doesn't look like we are so far behind and neither does it look like we will be in the future going by our current market and relations with various defense companies, our choices are not dwindling any time sooner.
And by the looks of it, when the LCH starts induction(2014), its development will have taken lesser time than WZ-10s.
FYI the next versions of the LCH will be the main attack helicopter after this version is inducted.


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## Cherokee

wanglaokan said:


> Don't compare china weapon with Russian ones.........



Pray Tell us why ??


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## UKBengali

bloo said:


> It's exactly what people are thinking, mind when people compare 2 weapons it is to see which one performs better regardless of whether they face each other or no.
> 
> Its not just the engines that decide every outcome of a battle.
> The radar and the armaments are equally responsible.
> It remains to be seen how good the YH radar is against the AN/APG-78
> or the tried and tested HELL-FIRE missile against the HJ-10.
> 
> In short the Apache has too much experience to be "bettered" by an untried platform like the WZ-10.
> 
> Its good China is trying but they are yet to prove its mettle against the best in the business.
> 
> India is inducting Apache now, which is better than the current WZ-10, we already have Mi-24 which is also better than the WZ-10, so it doesn't look like we are so far behind and neither does it look like we will be in the future going by our current market and relations with various defense companies, our choices are not dwindling any time sooner.
> And by the looks of it, when the LCH starts induction(2014), its development will have taken lesser time than WZ-10s.
> FYI the next versions of the LCH will be the main attack helicopter after this version is inducted.



You are again missing the fundamental point and that is the primary purpose of the Apache and the WZ-10 are to destroy enemy armour.

Who gives a monkey's whether the Apache has a better radar and/or anti-tank missiles.

As long as the WZ-10 can "kill" by using it's radar/sensors to locate and then destroy by using it's anti-tank missiles the enemy's armour then it is "good enough".

With attack helicopters, there is such as thing as "good enough" and when the WZ-10 gets the new engine then it will be "good enough" when compared to Apache.

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## bloo

UKBengali said:


> You are again missing the fundamental point and that is the primary purpose of the Apache and the WZ-10 are to destroy enemy armour.
> 
> Who gives a monkey's whether the Apache has a better radar and/or anti-tank missiles.
> 
> As long as the WZ-10 can "kill" by using it's radar/sensors to locate and then destroy by using it's anti-tank missiles the enemy's armour then it is "good enough".
> 
> With attack helicopters, there is such as thing as "good enough" and when the WZ-10 gets the new engine then it will be "good enough" when compared to Apache.




Good enough is just not enough.
When you are attacking someone make sure they are dead or it can be a real pain.
Everyone gives a monkey's behind as to what sensors and armaments a chopper is carrying.
If the Apache has a better engine, better radar and armaments then it is doing the job better than WZ-10.
So in the end yes, i stand by my point, an engine alone does not guarantee air supremacy.


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## giant panda

WZ-10 Thunderbolt Service In Operational Units






youku.com


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDgyOTc0MzQ0.html


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## cirr

bloo said:


> Good enough is just not enough.
> When you are attacking someone make sure they are dead or it can be a real pain.
> Everyone gives a monkey's behind as to what sensors and armaments a chopper is carrying.
> If the Apache has a better engine, better radar and armaments then it is doing the job better than WZ-10.
> So in the end yes, i stand by my point, an engine alone does not guarantee air supremacy.



Two armies of taxpayers&#65292;one is laughing all the way to the bank&#65292;the other is parting with money earned with sweat and toil and even blood&#12290;

No prize for guessing which army Indian taxpayers belong to&#12290;

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> People miss the point when saying Apache is "better" than WZ-10.
> 
> It is not the same as F-22 versus J-20 as the two helicopters are not designed to fight each other.
> 
> The whole purpose of the 2 helicopters is to destroy armour as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
> 
> Currently the Apache has an advantage as it can carry 16 anti-tank missiles as compared to 8 on the WZ-10.
> 
> When the new engine is installed on the WZ-10, then it will also be able to carry 16 anti-tank missiles.
> 
> With the new engine, the WZ-10 will be indeed a "better" helicopter than the Apache as it will be able to almost anything that an Apache can do but at a much reduced cost.
> 
> Looks like China is indeed winning the "bang for buck" war with the US.
> 
> And the result for India will be dire as it will have to purchase a much more costlier helicopter that may only be marginally effective than the cheaper domestic Chinese version.



Seriously, I don't see the point of WZ-10 underpowered. In fact, wu xingming , the chief designer of WZ-10 is so confident of this helo that it rank it the best top 3 helo attack. All the so called, underpowered thing is just some make up stuff by western media to make them feel better. Just like how they claim CV liaoning has no airborne aircraft ready to take off and landed on it when she had commission. The zhuhai 2012 airshow performance more or less confirm his sentiment abt the good abilities of WZ-10. It's looks very agile and fast. In fact, I don't see a problem of it carry 16 HJ-10 Anti tank missiles. Given that each missile weight 50kg, 16 of it will weight a mere 800kg. That is a very light load for a helo like WZ-10 helo.

WZ-10 in fact does not look as heavy as what many think. From the YouTube video, you can see the profile of it, in fact WZ-10 looks small and slim. Therefore it doesn't need an engine as powerful as the AH-64 to get it the same performance level.

As for WZ-10, I think it's body profile is definitely more stealthy than AH-64 given its later design, the cockpit and HMDS looks modern and sophisticated. The only thing is lacked at the moment a radar but its developed at the moment and tested on Z-9. I believe it will be in service soon.

WZ-10 are currently mass producers and more than 3 regiment in service. Looks like PLA is very happy about its performance.

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## giant panda



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## cirr



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## itaskol

there are totally 4 squad Z10 in service now.

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## sweetgrape



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## Echo_419

Lankan Ranger said:


> *WZ-10 Attack Helicopter already in Service *
> 
> *There are at lease 8 of them already in service by PLA 5th LH Regiment
> *



Nice pics hope to see it in good nos
Btw what is the weapon package


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## Alfa-Fighter

cirr said:


> Where is the 1diot who thinks there are only a couple of Z-10s in service&#65311;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z-10s with the Nanjing Military Region in regular training&#12290;
> 
> China is NOT India which is into habitual boasting about something that may or may not happen years from when the announcement is made&#12290;



china has done lot of photoshop so its hard to believe in no's, same trick applied by Iran (china friend) when launched missile but it get caught .......until not seen in video .....

if you see in first pic all helos upper (main) blade is showing in same angle, which is not possible  Moreover from the pic is taken from the middle so Right Side halos's (left side Blade should more in light then the right side one ) but it is not showing .


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## Beast

Alfa-Fighter said:


> china has done lot of photoshop so its hard to believe in no's, same trick applied by Iran (china friend) when launched missile but it get caught .......until not seen in video .....
> 
> if you see in first pic all helos upper (main) blade is showing in same angle, which is not possible  Moreover from the pic is taken from the middle so Right Side halos's (left side Blade should more in light then the right side one ) but it is not showing .



India is king of delusion and jealousy... It just cant accept its been defeated. 

The number of WZ-10 have Already confirmed by many chin military expert watcher. 3 regiment is already modest estimation.


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## Alfa-Fighter

Beast said:


> India is king of delusion and jealousy... It just cant accept its been defeated.
> 
> The number of WZ-10 have Already confirmed by many chin military expert watcher. 3 regiment is already modest estimation.



You can claim to be 500 no's but on pic you can only show till 3....not more then that , everything else you do photoshop which get caught.


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## sweetgrape

Alfa-Fighter said:


> You can claim to be 500 no's but on pic you can only show till 3....not more then that , everything else you do photoshop which get caught.


You win, you are right, guy, get it.
We just know photoshop, we are brainwashed, No WZ-10, No WZ-19, all are photoshoped, fake, OK. 
Now, you can back your defence forum, continue posting your furture weapon draft and happy for importing new weapon from USA, Israel, Russia and other coutries.

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## Alfa-Fighter

sweetgrape said:


> You win, you are right, guy, get it.
> We just know photoshop, we are brainwashed, No WZ-10, No WZ-19, all are photoshoped, fake, OK.
> Now, you can back your defence forum, continue posting your furture weapon draft and happy for importing new weapon from USA, Israel, Russia and other coutries.



dont show sign of frustration, either show Chinese Govt /Army website stating the no claim. or else don't give you fancy figures.

everyone knows Chinese are best in photoshop and many picture you people posed found faked of other. reality always hurt.


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## cirr

Alfa-Fighter said:


> You can claim to be 500 no's but on pic you can only show till 3....not more then that , everything else you do photoshop which get caught.



Time to wake up from your dreams&#65292;dude&#12290;

*China's first state key laboratory of laser propulsion and its applications inaugurated*

By Dong Liyuan and Zhang Xiaoqi (China Military Online)

08:40, December 11, 2012 

China's first state key laboratory of laser propulsion and its applications was inaugurated in the Armaments Academy of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) on December 7, 2012, marking China has made a stride in exploring new-type highly-efficient aerospace propulsion technology research.

According to Hong Yanji, director of the laboratory, the laser propulsion is a new-concept propulsion technology in providing power to aero-craft. The technology boasts multiple advantages including high specific impulse, big payload ratio and low launching cost, and can be applied to a wide range of fields such as launching near-earth-orbit microsatellites, clearing debris in the orbits of the earth, and microsatellite attitude and orbit control, etc.

When launching near-earth-orbit satellites, the laser propulsion technology cuts down the launching cost to hundreds of US dollars per kilogram, far lower than that of the current chemical rockets which may cost tens of thousands of US dollars per kilogram.

The laboratory is currently engaged in research in basis for laser propulsion application, plasm flow control and propulsion technology, and propulsion flow field test and diagnosis techniques, etc.

China's first state key laboratory of laser propulsion and its applications inaugurated - People's Daily Online

There are further speculations in Russian's Newsland&#65288;http://newsland.com&#65289;and the New Scientist&#65288;http://www.newscientist.com&#65289;regarding China's efforts and progresses made in this field&#12290;

Have a good read&#12290;

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## giant panda

Alfa-Fighter said:


> dont show sign of frustration, either show Chinese Govt /Army website stating the no claim. or else don't give you fancy figures.
> 
> everyone knows Chinese are best in photoshop and many picture you people posed found faked of other. reality always hurt.




WZ-10 "Thunderbolt" Service In Operational Units - YouTube



photoshop

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## Luftwaffe

What is the SPH of WZ-10A. I don't take wikipedia as reliable that states 1350sph for WZ-10 [not A] and 1400+ for hindustani LCH if we compare WZ-10A is much heavier then LCH, WZ-10A requires much powerful Engine..


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## Pakistanisage

PAFAce said:


> What is the *purpose of an attack helicopter that is designed to fight in the frozen mountains *at the expense of performance on over regular terrain? Unless you are expecting to fight entire wars there, which doesn't fit with the Indian doctrine against either Pak or China. I would appreciate it i you could shed some light on this.
> 
> I think if what you say is right, then the LCH is not designed for conventional war but for hunting insurgents. Over the deserts of Sindh, this helicopter would be a sitting duck for our SAMs/Helis. Would this assumption be correct?






Sir, Helicopters are not designed for " Frozen Mountains" but they are designed for high altitude operations.

If a Helicopter is strong enough to operate at high altitude, it is certainly very strong to operate at Sea Level.

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## cirr

3D printing making giant strides&#65306;








ü?


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## DARKY

Luftwaffe said:


> What is the SPH of WZ-10A. I don't take wikipedia as reliable that states 1350sph for WZ-10 [not A] and 1400+ for hindustani LCH if we compare WZ-10A is much heavier then LCH, WZ-10A requires much powerful Engine..



You are right wikipedia is not a trustworthy source the WZ-10 Helicopter is powered by two WZ-9 turboshaft engine of 950kW power class... which makes up upto 2x1280 SHP... and not 2x1350.
Hence the load carrying capability is less than that of LCH... the Service ceiling is also not very good and if you notice the load wings of the 3rd PT of LCH and compare it with the production variant of WZ-10 you'll note that the former more optimized towards carrying heavier payload as compared to WZ-10.
Light weight of LCH is due to the fact that it uses CFC for stealth features, weight reduction, higher body strength.. etc..etc.
Besides the CFC frame is faster built with lesser joints making production much faster.

There has been a more powerful derivative of WZ-9 engine in development with a power output of 1450-1500 KW however it is too big and too heavy to be fitted on WZ-10 helicopter.

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## DARKY

Pakistanisage said:


> Sir, Helicopters are not designed for " Frozen Mountains" but they are designed for high altitude operations.
> 
> If a Helicopter is strong enough to operate a high altitude, it is certainly very strong to operate at Sea Level.



More so at near sea level as it would have better performance and much higher load carrying abilities... however the main purpose of LCH was to support the mountain crops on the Indo-Tibetan border with strong fire power.

For Anti-Armor roles Apaches would lead the pack... along with LCH and Rudra in supportive roles along with Mi 35 and armed Mi 17V5s and Cheeta Helos.


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## giant panda

Luftwaffe said:


> What is the SPH of WZ-10A. I don't take wikipedia as reliable that states 1350sph for WZ-10 [not A] and 1400+ for hindustani LCH if we compare WZ-10A is much heavier then LCH, WZ-10A requires much powerful Engine..




WZ-9G Turboshaft Engine 1300KW for WZ-10 is enough

WZ-16 Turboshaft Engine 1600KW for heavy WZ-10 as Apache 

WZ-10 Turboshaft Engine 1800KW......

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## cirr

Now where is that 1diot who insists that there exists only one or two Z-10s&#65311;

His Western Master is reporting&#65306;

*China Goes All In With The Z-10*

January 6, 2013: China&#8217;s new Z-10 helicopter gunship is apparently in mass production. In the last year the Z-10 has been photographed serving with four of the five aviation brigades in the army. There is a squadron (12 helicopters) of Z-10s in each brigade. The move to mass production of the Z-10 was a surprise because this aircraft has been in development for over 14 years and the several prototypes encountered numerous problems. This led to failed attempts to buy or steal helicopter gunship technology from Russia and South Africa. 

Two years ago some of the Z-10 prototypes were sent to Chinese Army aviation units for field testing. While not a failure, the newer and lighter Z-19 was apparently seen as a better candidate for mass production. Work continued on the Z-10 because the Z-19 is basically an armed scout helicopter. China always wanted something more like the American AH-64 Apache. That would be the Z-10, at least once all the development problems were overcome. The seven ton Z-10 is smaller than the 10 ton AH-64 and also has a crew of two. The Z-10 is armed with 30mm autocannon and can carry up to a ton of rockets or missiles. 

For three years now the Z-19 armed scout helicopter has been spotted in the air, most recently painted in military colors. The Z-19 was earlier known as the Z-9W. The Z-19 is yet another Chinese helicopter based on the Eurocopter Dauphin (which has been built under license in China for two decades). The Z-19 is a 4.5 ton, two seat armed helicopter. It can carry a 23mm autocannon and up to half a ton of munitions (missiles, usually). Cruising speed is 245 kilometers an hour and range is 700 kilometers. The Z-19 is basically an upgraded Z-9W.

Warplanes: China Goes All In With The Z-10

For his information, the above is still an under-estimate of the number of Z-10s in service, including the actual number of PLA Army Aviation units that have the opters in question.

Indians have a strange logic and very odd way of thinking.

Now that China has a newer and more power engine(in WZ-XX) nearly at the ready, it is in a position to upgrade the Z-10 onto a heavy attack copter that the Apache is any time it pleases.

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## Nishan_101

giant panda said:


>



I am quite sure that PAA is talking about ATAK but they really want to have 30 Z-10Ps and will going to order it soon....


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## trident2010

WZ-10 looks to be a decent helicopter however, how it compare with contemporary attack helicopters it remains to be seen. There are around 5-6 similar attack helicopters are being developed/developing and will be inducted soon, so no need to brag about one as each of them will be having more or less similar capability.


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## Beast

trident2010 said:


> WZ-10 looks to be a decent helicopter however, how it compare with contemporary attack helicopters it remains to be seen. There are around 5-6 similar attack helicopters are being developed/developing and will be inducted soon, so no need to brag about one as each of them will be having more or less similar capability.



But out of so many helo develop, I will say WZ-10 looks one of the stealthiest and sharp looking.


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## trident2010

Beast said:


> But out of so many helo develop, I will say WZ-10 looks one of the stealthiest and sharp looking.




Yes it looks good but we need to see the complete package of design, engines, avionics and weapons. If we look at individual components, each helicopter has their own merits but when we look at the complete package this is where Apache AH-64 takes the lead.


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## indian_foxhound

china hyperpower said:


> WZ-10 would easily beat the apache.



Joke of the year. Hahahahahaha. Please dont type when you are high


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## hk299792458

The most important is not if Z-10 is advanced enough or not, the most important is that China has succeed in it's "_Make_" strategy and they have completed the entire process of design and manufacturing of an attack helicopter.

Once we know that Chinese have successfully built this Z-10, we know that they can do ever better in the next program.

For this point, our Indian friends should take example from their Chinese neighbours, instead of prefering "Buy" strategy, they should put more efforts on their own program and not buying everything...

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## cirr

Addicted to highway transport&#65311;

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## Navigator

IMO, Z-10 is one of the most beautiful helicopters, together with Ka-50 and AH-1 Cobra

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## cirr

The 9th Army Aviation Brigade&#65306;


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## cirr



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## Sasquatch

WZ-10 Cockpit

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## Navigator

Video

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## conworldus

Navigator said:


> IMO, Z-10 is one of the most beautiful helicopters, together with Ka-50 and AH-1 Cobra



Helicopter has always been the weakness of Chinese military industry. Z-10 is a huge leap forward


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## muslim282

What is the HMS being used by the pilot in the heli in the top pic. It looks quite modern.


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## Manticore

ok guys, ive stuck a thread so please post related info in this thread without opening multiple threads

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...10-attack-helicopter-armed-8x-hj-10-atgm.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/100059-wz-10-attack-helicopter-helmet.html


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ck-helicopter-being-evaluated-pakistan-2.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...10-attack-helicopter-armed-8x-hj-10-atgm.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28110-new-pakistan-military-helicopters.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...future-chopper-t129-atak-fire-test-video.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/3022-need-attack-helicopter-7.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ou-were-authorized-helo-would-you-prefer.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/221313-wz10-t-129-thats-question.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84350-wz-10-attack-helicopter-thread-11.html


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## muse

Congratulations for building Z10 -- now the leather jackets must go, no, really, they must go.


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## hk299792458

"Falcon assault" drill of Z-10 from Nankin military region...

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## hk299792458

The second part of the previous video...


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## hk299792458

Two more videos on the same topic...

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## hk299792458

An another footage on *Z-10*...


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## rcrmj

this video is about WZ-10 'escorting' few transport helis to droop some paratroopers``after that recieved reinforcement call from other units (being f*cked by enemy tanks), but when moved to that 'enemy' location the tanks were gone```so they have to 'search' the 'enemy' tanks by the equipments they have on WZ-10```
æ*¦ç´-10ï¼âçé¹°çªå»âå®ææ¼ç»[é«æ¸ç]âå¨çº¿æ*æ¾âä¼é·ç½ï¼è§é¢é«æ¸å¨çº¿è§ç




and this one doesnt have a 'plot' ``` skip to 3:59 for some heli gun firing exercises
æ*¦ç´-10æåå®æâçé¹°çªå»âææ³æ¼ç»âå¨çº¿æ*æ¾âä¼é·ç½ï¼è§é¢é«æ¸å¨çº¿è§ç

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## rcrmj

deleted``````


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## Beast

rcrmj said:


> this video is about WZ-10 'escorting' few transport helis to droop some paratroopers``after that recieved reinforcement call from other units (being f*cked by enemy tanks), but when moved to that 'enemy' location the tanks were gone```so they have to 'search' the 'enemy' tanks by the equipments they have on WZ-10```
> æ*¦ç&#8250;´-10ï¼&#353;â&#8364;&#339;ç&#338;&#381;é¹°çªå&#8225;»â&#8364;å®&#382;æ&#710;&#732;æ¼&#8221;ç»&#402;[é«&#732;æ¸&#8230;ç&#8240;&#710;]â&#8364;&#8221;å&#339;¨çº¿æ&#8217;*æ&#8221;¾â&#8364;&#8221;ä¼&#732;é&#8230;·ç½&#8216;ï¼&#338;è§&#8224;é¢&#8216;é«&#732;æ¸&#8230;å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249;



It seems PLA are now favouring an all China made helo. From Z-8 army to WZ-10.. All are domestic made and no Mi-17 involved.


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## hk299792458

"_Falcon assault_" drill of Nankin military region...

Very very interesting footage.

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## cirr

Have had enough of the Z-10s and the Z-19s&#12290;

Now bring on the Z-20s&#12290;


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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> It seems PLA are now favouring an all China made helo. From Z-8 army to WZ-10.. All are domestic made and no Mi-17 involved.



Any military powers prefer their domestic weapons, so external influences on the battle outcome can be minimised. Besides this is the symbol of a country's military might, there is no single military power that is built on foreign weapons


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## Sasquatch

rcrmj said:


> this video is about WZ-10 'escorting' few transport helis to droop some paratroopers``after that recieved reinforcement call from other units (being f*cked by enemy tanks), but when moved to that 'enemy' location the tanks were gone```so they have to 'search' the 'enemy' tanks by the equipments they have on WZ-10```
> [youku]XNTE0Mjk0NjEy[/youku]
> 
> 
> and this one doesnt have a 'plot' ``` skip to 3:59 for some heli gun firing exercises
> [youku]XNTE0MTUxMzQw[/youku]


Nice Videos.

I have heard that the WZ16 engines are being tested this year for a more powerful WZ-10 on par with the Apache.



Beast said:


> It seems PLA are now favouring an all China made helo. From Z-8 army to WZ-10.. All are domestic made and no Mi-17 involved.



Mi17's will no longer be needed once the Z-20 is inducted.


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## United




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## cirr

Z-10s and Z-19s belonging to the 8th Army Aviation Brigade of the 38th Group Army&#65306;

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## sweetgrape



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## hk299792458

This is not a Z-19?

Henri K.


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## sweetgrape

hk299792458 said:


> This is not a Z-19?
> 
> Henri K.


Still the Z-19, I guess&#65292;with fire control radar.


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## Ankit_Pujari

Chinese attack helicopter's secret Russian roots


> Chinese attack helicopter's secret Russian roots
> Posted by Guy Norris 8:33 PM on Mar 06, 2013
> 
> Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, member of the Russian Academy of Sciences and Hero of the Russian Federation dropped the proverbial bombshell at Heli-Expo here in Las Vegas this afternoon.
> 
> *Saving the best to last in a briefing to update a series of Kamov programs, Mikheyev told an astonished crowd that Chinas Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter was actually designed in great secrecy under contract for China by Kamov.* Dubbed Project 941, the concept was initially designed in 1995 and developed by China into the WZ-10/Z-10.
> 
> The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow  and while the helicopter had been heard of before then  its appearance at the show came as a surprise. At the time observers noted an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta, but no connection was ever made to Kamov until today.
> 
> More details will follow in Aviation Week & Space Technology.
> 
> Tags: ar99, Kamov, Z-10, WZ-10, China, Russia, Zhuhai, Heli-Expo



Now, my Chinese brothers, please don't argue saying they were merely design consultants. The secret nature of the collaboration precludes possibility of them being mere design consultants. That argument won't cut ice among the sensible.

Have to give credit where it is due, China made full use of the collapse of Communism in present-day Russia, to further its goals, unlike India, that refused a similar proposal the Soviets had made.

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## theone-neo

cant make heli,,,, nw am thinking chinese so called stealthy fighter planes r made in chinese or just got from other country?

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## bdslph

every one gets help 
EVEN the USA and EU are getting 
my point is this as long as it works and it is good then np abt buying China weapons even if it is looks like american weapons

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## The A-5

bdslph said:


> every one gets help
> EVEN the USA and EU are getting
> my point is this as long as it works and it is good then np abt buying China weapons even if it is looks like american weapons



If you are getting help from foreign, you should openly admit it. Whats the point in *pretending* otherwise?

The truth is always bitter, and it always tumbles out of the closet suddenly. WZ-10's engines were designed by Pratt & Whitney. The US Govt. has fined the company many millions of $ for violating embargo and China shamelessly claims that WZ-10's engines are indigenous. Chinese gov. denies the P&W support.

Are we to think US Govt. is fining companies for nothing?

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## qwerrty

The A-5 said:


> If you are getting help from foreign, you should openly admit it. Whats the point in *pretending* otherwise?
> 
> The truth is always bitter, and it always tumbles out of the closet suddenly. WZ-10's engines were designed by Pratt & Whitney. The US Govt. has fined the company many millions of $ for violating embargo and China shamelessly claims that WZ-10's engines are indigenous. Chinese gov. denies the P&W support.
> 
> Are we to think US Govt. is fining companies for nothing?



cool story! pw only export a few engines. WZ-10, now, has reach at least 10 regiment numbers..


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## shree835

@Ankit_Pujari How can any Chini guy reply on this coz they know what CPC told them or information from some part of external world.


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## Black Widow

bdslph said:


> every one gets help
> EVEN the USA and EU are getting
> my point is this as long as it works and it is good then np abt buying China weapons even if it is looks like american weapons





Good keep defending China, you will get reward from Pakistan...

@Topic: We don't know how correct this gentelman was, But one thing we all know for sure, Communism run on propaganda and lie. Maoism is worst form of commmunism. One can not expect truth coming out of communist mouth.

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## sweetgrape

If say some Russian expertist part in the project, I think right, but most of work done by China, after collapse of USSR, many countries accept huge of Russian, they contribute much to many projects, but not means can get all or most of credits!!!

from these article, seems that Russian done the all work or most of the work, the article's mention is belittling China, there would be such kind of article on J-20 and J31 later, not surprise!!

I know Indian like this kind of article, it make them feel better before China big achievement, but india itself have to inport most of the weapon from others, even start its own project, have to import most of components for it, or just contribute money, this kinds of article cater to person like indian!!

Whatever, I hope all indian like this kind of article, it is not harm to China, we just do our job and make use of the source to enhance ourself, you can keep mocking!

BTW, Z-10 is not Russian style, it should said American designedit!

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## Skull and Bones

There goes the Chinese bubble of 100% indigenous into burst.

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## kingofkings

*Military Contractors Are Fined Over Aid to China*
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/business/global/arms-contractor-pleads-guilty-on-china-exports.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON &#8212; A Canadian subsidiary of the Connecticut-based military contractor the United Technologies Corporation pleaded guilty on Thursday to federal charges that it had illegally helped the Chinese government develop an attack helicopter now in service there.
Enlarge This Image

Jonathan Alcorn/Bloomberg News
Louis R. Chênevert of United Technologies. He apologized after a subsidiary pleaded guilty to illegally exporting technology.
As part of a settlement with the Justice and State Departments, the military contractor, the Canadian subsidiary and another American subsidiary agreed to pay more than $75 million to the departments for making false statements to federal authorities.

The helicopter, known as the Z-10, seats two people and is designed mainly to attack tanks, armored vehicles and other ground forces. It is being mass produced in China.

The Canadian subsidiary, the Pratt & Whitney Canada Corporation, violated the Arms Export Control Act by providing the Chinese with 10 engines to power Z-10 helicopters in 2001 and 2002, according to an announcement by the United States attorney&#8217;s office for the District of Connecticut. Technology for the engines, the authorities said, had originally been created for United States military helicopters.

According to the settlement, Pratt & Whitney Canada pleaded guilty to illegally exporting to China the American military software used to operate the engines.

Pratt & Whitney Canada &#8220;anticipated that its work on the Z-10 military attack helicopter in China would open the door to a far more lucrative civilian helicopter market in China&#8221; that may have been worth $2 billion to the company, according to the Justice Department. Ultimately, the Chinese government chose not to award the company contracts for civilian helicopters.

United Technologies and its American subsidiary, the Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation, waited until 2006 to tell the United States government about the sales, according to the authorities, and then lied about them.

The settlement said that the Justice Department would defer its prosecutions of United Technologies and Hamilton Sundstrand as long as the companies paid their fines and allowed an independent monitor to assess their compliance with export law.

&#8220;We accept responsibility for these past violations and we deeply regret they occurred,&#8221; said Louis R. Chênevert, the chairman and chief executive of United Technologies.

He said that since 2006 United Technologies had invested more than $30 million &#8220;to strengthen its export compliance infrastructure,&#8221; including &#8220;increased employee training and communications efforts.&#8221;

The announcement from the Justice and State Departments comes as the Obama administration has increased its pressure on China. The administration has outlined plans to expand its military presence in the Pacific to reassure allies that they will be protected from the Chinese, who have vastly expanded their military spending in recent years.

&#8220;Due in part to the efforts of these companies, China was able to develop its first modern military attack helicopter with restricted U.S. defense technology,&#8221; said Lisa Monaco, assistant attorney general for National Security. &#8220;As today&#8217;s case demonstrates, the Justice Department will spare no effort to hold accountable those who compromise U.S. national security for the sake of profits and then lie about it to the government.&#8221;

The Justice Department has increased prosecutions against domestic companies selling military technology to the Chinese. So far this year, it has prosecuted six significant cases.

The most recent arrest occurred in May, when authorities apprehended a Chinese citizen in connection with charges that he had illegally exported transducers to China that can be used in centrifuges to enrich uranium. In April, a California man was sentenced to 46 months in prison for exporting thermal-imaging cameras to China.

&#8220;This is not the first and in all likelihood won&#8217;t be the last as the U.S. intelligence community assesses that the government of China is one of the most aggressive and capable collectors of sensitive U.S. technologies,&#8221; said Bruce Foucart, special agent in charge of homeland security investigations for New England, at a news conference in Bridgeport, Conn.

According to e-mails obtained by the Justice Department, Pratt & Whitney knew that it may have been violating American laws.

&#8220;Please note the attached notice (in bold) regarding the imposition of US sanctions on the Chinese Government for military aircraft,&#8221; according to an e-mail obtained by the Justice Department. &#8220;We must be very careful that the helicopter programs we are doing with the Chinese are not presented or viewed as military programs. As a result of these sanctions, we need to be very careful with the Z10C program. If the first flight will be with a gun ship then we could have problems with the US government.&#8221;


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## indian_foxhound

sad to hear this. But need to accept the fact... Opsss they gonna wake up from wet dreams

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## sweetgrape

shree835 said:


> @Ankit_Pujari How can any Chini guy reply on this coz they know what CPC told them or information from some part of external world.



Right, we chinese all are "brainwashed" by CPC, we "Ignorant" Chinese build China better than "Smart" and "Democratic" India, Oh, Sorry, as a Chinese, How could I know Indian is "Smart" and "Democratic"? 



And, seems much indian is "interesting" this article, and talk loundly here, wait for more indian, see whether can find more "interesting" indian comments about "truth", quote more article from western sites about "truth", "learn" from it, hope they can make "creative" and "funny" Comments like many Chinese forums, can make me laughing because of comments itself, hehe!

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## qwerrty

Ankit_Pujari said:


> [/url]
> 
> 
> Now, my Chinese brothers,* please don't argue saying they were merely design consultants*. The secret nature of the collaboration precludes possibility of them being mere design consultants. That argument won't cut ice among the sensible.



i don't see why they cant say that..?



> Dubbed Project 941, the* concept was initially* designed in 1995 and *developed by China into* the WZ-10/Z-10.


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## AViet

Upon hearing this news, Premier Singh will jump in cheer and immediately phone President Obama "Sir, the WZ-10 is designed by the Russian, not by Chinese themselves. Please, please, please treat us with respect and fear, as you are doing with the Chinese, because they can not design the WZ-10, just like we do".

Typical mentality of Indian. And the behavior of Premier Singh may not be far from truth. I can guess after reading Indian news for long time, especially about the whole country of India boiling after newly-elected President Obama choosed to visit China, Korea, Japan and Indonesia, but not India for his first foreign visit.

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## Ayush

so,it is not an indigenous project,but still a good one.



AViet said:


> Upon hearing this news, Premier Singh will jump in cheer and immediately phone President Obama "Sir, the WZ-10 is designed by the Russian, not by Chinese themselves. Please, please, please treat us with respect and fear, as you are doing with the Chinese, because they can not design the WZ-10, just like we do".
> 
> Typical mentality of Indian. And the behavior of Premier Singh may not be far from truth.



you know a lot about us,eh???

maybe you were researching on indians since dec.2009

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## Wright

That could rule out export to Pakistan.


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## Akasa

Let me introduce the amazing credibility of Russian news.
- They said China would buy the T-50. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy T-80. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy Tu-22M3. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy Slava. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy Tu-160. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy Su-35S. Didn't happen.
- They said China would buy Amur. Didn't happen.

A little while back a Russian poster showed a picture of a J-10A as their own Air Force planes. And now they are claiming that they designed a helicopter that the Americans claim were stolen from them. Indeed credible, huh?








kingofkings said:


> *Military Contractors Are Fined Over Aid to China*
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/business/global/arms-contractor-pleads-guilty-on-china-exports.html?_r=0
> WASHINGTON  A Canadian subsidiary of the Connecticut-based military contractor the United Technologies Corporation pleaded guilty on Thursday to federal charges that it had illegally helped the Chinese government develop an attack helicopter now in service there.
> Enlarge This Image
> 
> Jonathan Alcorn/Bloomberg News
> Louis R. Chênevert of United Technologies. He apologized after a subsidiary pleaded guilty to illegally exporting technology.
> As part of a settlement with the Justice and State Departments, the military contractor, the Canadian subsidiary and another American subsidiary agreed to pay more than $75 million to the departments for making false statements to federal authorities.
> 
> The helicopter, known as the Z-10, seats two people and is designed mainly to attack tanks, armored vehicles and other ground forces. It is being mass produced in China.
> 
> The Canadian subsidiary, the Pratt & Whitney Canada Corporation, violated the Arms Export Control Act by providing the Chinese with 10 engines to power Z-10 helicopters in 2001 and 2002, according to an announcement by the United States attorneys office for the District of Connecticut. Technology for the engines, the authorities said, had originally been created for United States military helicopters.
> 
> According to the settlement, Pratt & Whitney Canada pleaded guilty to illegally exporting to China the American military software used to operate the engines.
> 
> Pratt & Whitney Canada anticipated that its work on the Z-10 military attack helicopter in China would open the door to a far more lucrative civilian helicopter market in China that may have been worth $2 billion to the company, according to the Justice Department. Ultimately, the Chinese government chose not to award the company contracts for civilian helicopters.
> 
> United Technologies and its American subsidiary, the Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation, waited until 2006 to tell the United States government about the sales, according to the authorities, and then lied about them.
> 
> The settlement said that the Justice Department would defer its prosecutions of United Technologies and Hamilton Sundstrand as long as the companies paid their fines and allowed an independent monitor to assess their compliance with export law.
> 
> We accept responsibility for these past violations and we deeply regret they occurred, said Louis R. Chênevert, the chairman and chief executive of United Technologies.
> 
> He said that since 2006 United Technologies had invested more than $30 million to strengthen its export compliance infrastructure, including increased employee training and communications efforts.
> 
> The announcement from the Justice and State Departments comes as the Obama administration has increased its pressure on China. The administration has outlined plans to expand its military presence in the Pacific to reassure allies that they will be protected from the Chinese, who have vastly expanded their military spending in recent years.
> 
> Due in part to the efforts of these companies, China was able to develop its first modern military attack helicopter with restricted U.S. defense technology, said Lisa Monaco, assistant attorney general for National Security. As todays case demonstrates, the Justice Department will spare no effort to hold accountable those who compromise U.S. national security for the sake of profits and then lie about it to the government.
> 
> The Justice Department has increased prosecutions against domestic companies selling military technology to the Chinese. So far this year, it has prosecuted six significant cases.
> 
> The most recent arrest occurred in May, when authorities apprehended a Chinese citizen in connection with charges that he had illegally exported transducers to China that can be used in centrifuges to enrich uranium. In April, a California man was sentenced to 46 months in prison for exporting thermal-imaging cameras to China.
> 
> This is not the first and in all likelihood wont be the last as the U.S. intelligence community assesses that the government of China is one of the most aggressive and capable collectors of sensitive U.S. technologies, said Bruce Foucart, special agent in charge of homeland security investigations for New England, at a news conference in Bridgeport, Conn.
> 
> According to e-mails obtained by the Justice Department, Pratt & Whitney knew that it may have been violating American laws.
> 
> Please note the attached notice (in bold) regarding the imposition of US sanctions on the Chinese Government for military aircraft, according to an e-mail obtained by the Justice Department. We must be very careful that the helicopter programs we are doing with the Chinese are not presented or viewed as military programs. As a result of these sanctions, we need to be very careful with the Z10C program. If the first flight will be with a gun ship then we could have problems with the US government.



So which is it? Is it a development from Kamov or a development from US companies? It's similar to how they claimed the J-31 was at first a copy of the F-22 and then a copy of the F-35. Make up your minds, people.

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## Gentelman

Pakistan wants russian helis so if that chineese helo is designed by russia then it's a golden bird for PA..
they should sign a TOT agreement....


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## Saleem

Ankit_Pujari said:


> Chinese attack helicopter's secret Russian roots
> 
> 
> Now, my Chinese brothers, please don't argue saying they were merely design consultants. The secret nature of the collaboration precludes possibility of them being mere design consultants. That argument won't cut ice among the sensible.
> 
> Have to give credit where it is due, China made full use of the collapse of Communism in present-day Russia, to further its goals, unlike India, that refused a similar proposal the Soviets had made.



and the martians designed the J35 under a special contract where they get two orange lollipops for each J35 produced......

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## Fsjal

SinoSoldier said:


> Let me introduce the amazing credibility of Russian news.
> - They said China would buy the T-50. Didn't happen.
> - *They said China would buy T-80. Didn't happen.*
> - They said China would buy Tu-22M3. Didn't happen.
> - They said China would buy Slava. Didn't happen.
> - They said China would buy Tu-160. Didn't happen.
> - They said China would buy Su-35S. Didn't happen.
> - They said China would buy Amur. Didn't happen.
> 
> A little while back a Russian poster showed a picture of a J-10A as their own Air Force planes. And now they are claiming that they designed a helicopter that the Americans claim were stolen from them. Indeed credible, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it? Is it a development from Kamov or a development from US companies? It's similar to how they claimed the J-31 was at first a copy of the F-22 and then a copy of the F-35. Make up your minds, people.



Actually, China did receive some T-80


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## cirr

Calm down you guys.

The Russians like to claim credits for themselves these days.

Even if what the Russian says is true, it was only "Concept Design" which happened in 1995 when China had nothing.

This is 2013 and not a single bit of the Z-10 originates from Russia.

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## cirr

It would be stupidity of the highest order not to learn from, and cooperate with, someone of Kamov's calibre in the field when a country like China set out to design and build its own attack helicopter back in 1995.

Now is 2013 and China has made great strides in the last 15-20 years.

If Russia did contribute to the Z-10 programme, even if the contribution was only in the early concept design stage, we should thank Russia for helping China become a new force in the design and build of modern attack helicopters.

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## JSCh

The A-5 said:


> If you are getting help from foreign, you should openly admit it. Whats the point in *pretending* otherwise?
> 
> The truth is always bitter, and it always tumbles out of the closet suddenly. WZ-10's engines were designed by Pratt & Whitney. The US Govt. has fined the company many millions of $ for violating embargo and China shamelessly claims that WZ-10's engines are indigenous. Chinese gov. denies the P&W support.
> 
> Are we to think US Govt. is fining companies for nothing?


WZ-10 was initially designed and tested with US P&W, Russian and Ukrainian engine.

But later China developed Wozhou (WZ)-9 turbo-shaft engine that is used in production WZ-10 attack helicopter.

WZ-9 IS a Chinese made indigenous engine.


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## Malik Usman

theone-neo said:


> cant make heli,,,, nw am thinking chinese so called stealthy fighter planes r made in chinese or just got from other country?



And which is that other country.....India......

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## qwerrty

AViet said:


> Upon hearing this news, Premier Singh will jump in cheer and immediately phone President Obama "Sir, the WZ-10 is designed by the Russian, not by Chinese themselves. Please, please, please treat us with respect and fear, as you are doing with the Chinese, because they can not design the WZ-10, just like we do".
> 
> Typical mentality of Indian. And the behavior of Premier Singh may not be far from truth. I can guess after reading Indian news for long time, especially about the whole country of India boiling after newly-elected President Obama choosed to visit China, Korea, Japan and Indonesia, but not India for his first foreign visit.



they're going to chuck a big party tonight and a public holiday tomorrow based on how they jumping up and down here

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## AViet

The whole world respect (or fear) the Chinese, not because they can design or not the WZ-10, not because they admit the truth or not, but for the following reason:

- The Chinese do things (including copy, cheat, lie in many cases,etc.) because it need to, for their strategic interest of their country and their people, not because someone told them to do so. 

- They do not feel having to respect the so-called international laws, which was set up by Western powers, to protect the benefit of Western countries, but no Western countries follows. The so-called international law is only for the fooled third-world countries, like India or African countries to follow, upon believing that by being transparent to the world (namely, the West), they would be as developed as the West.

- They do not feel having to beg for other countries to respect them. Other countries respect them (and fear them) naturally, because of their merciless nature and cold-blooded approach in any matter.

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## fatman17

useless pointless thread.


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## Black Widow

Indian projects are not secret, we all know what comes from where. In LCA/ALH/Arjuna etc we all know which foreign country helped on what subcomponent. 

Our datasheet are open, we never claim we made something, which we not.. While Chinese copy all stuff, still they try to show they have achieve on there own.

J10: Lavi design
FC1 : Some Russian design 
J11 : Russian design
Tanks : Russian design

remember 50-60% of job done when you copy the basic design. Suppose I get detail design of F22, how much it will difficult to make something like F22? 



Chinese need open media which can reveal the truth. The truth is hidden among Communist leader...

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## AViet

Black Widow said:


> Indian projects are not secret, we all know what comes from where. In LCA/ALH/Arjuna etc we all know which foreign country helped on what subcomponent.
> 
> That why you will always be a loser. Every countries protect their secrets for their strategic and long-term benefit, but India does not and can not, because of your nature, the eagerness to be trusted, to be respected by telling the whole truth to outsiders. Wise people and countries do not doing like that.
> 
> In case of war, the enemy, especially big and wise enemy like China, can easily defeat you, because they know all your weakness. If you have to import aircraft parts from some countries, they can use diplomatical or economical means to stop the import and then,... OK you can guess.
> 
> Vietnam manufactured first aircraft in 1980, but only until 2010 the army revealed the news. Vietnamese people have rumoured for years that we have manufactured the Yakhont missile (Brahmos is a version of Yakhont), but no one can confirm.
> 
> Why China have to be transparent like India. To become poor and backward like you? No country (except India may be) are fooled enough to be transparent about their military projects. All news are just rumours

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## EAK

Black Widow said:


> Indian projects are not secret, we all know what comes from where. In *LCA/ALH/Arjuna etc* *we all know which foreign country helped on what subcomponent. *
> 
> Our datasheet are open, we never claim we made something, which we not.. While Chinese copy all stuff, still they try to show they have achieve on there own.
> 
> J10: Lavi design
> *FC1 : Some Russian design *
> J11 : Russian design
> Tanks : Russian design
> 
> remember 50-60% of job done when you copy the basic design. Suppose I get detail design of F22, how much it will difficult to make something like F22?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese need open media which can reveal the truth. The truth is hidden among Communist leader...



1: Don't bring ur failure projects in this thread ...
2:Helped or U just bought and painted those things...don't lie...
3:hahaha the last point is Epic He don't know anything and saying '' ho ga koi russian design''  Stop promoting ur great mother russia..

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## qwerrty

Black Widow said:


> Our datasheet are open, *we never claim we made something, which we not*.. While Chinese copy all stuff, still they try to show they have achieve on there own.
> 
> .



the word *"indigenous"* being used to describe pretty much every single indian weapon. who are you trying to fool?

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## for truth

qwerrty said:


> they're going to chuck a big party tonight and a public holiday tomorrow based on how they jumping up and down here



will you join the party?? please do. If not you, then whole party is meaningless,i mean, you cannot even call it a party without a troll from the hyper ultra advanced Malaysh!t.



qwerrty said:


> the word *"indigenous"* being to describe pretty much every single indian weapon. who are you trying to fool?



obviously a troll from the military super power- Malaysia.


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## for truth

AViet said:


> That why you will always be a loser. Every countries protect their secrets for their strategic and long-term benefit, but India does not and can not, because of your nature, the eagerness to be trusted, to be respected by telling the whole truth to outsiders. Wise people and countries do not doing like that.
> 
> In case of war, the enemy, especially big and wise enemy like China, can easily defeat you, because they know all your weakness. If you have to import aircraft parts from some countries, they can use diplomatical or economical means to stop the import and then,... OK you can guess.
> 
> *Vietnam manufactured first aircraft in 1980, but only until 2010 the army revealed the news. Vietnamese people have rumoured for years that we have manufactured the Yakhont missile (Brahmos is a version of Yakhont), but no one can confirm.*
> 
> Why China have to be transparent like India. To become poor and backward like you? No country (except India may be) are fooled enough to be transparent about their military projects. All news are just rumours




i have also heard that Vietnam is building a 10th gen fighter aircraft . I'm sure they will reveal it by around 2500 AD or 2600 AD. People have also rumored that Vietnam is developing a missile that will travel at the speed of light,but no one can confirm this.

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## for truth

more information about the chinese heli

Asia - China's new WZ-10 attack helicopter - development

this article was published way back in 2007, in other terms, except for some deluded retards, all others knew of the incredible amount of Russian help in this 'Chinese' helicopter.



> Russian design - Kamov?
> Around 1995 according to testimony of "nifiga" in CDF - the claims that he was involved in the project - the Russian-KAMOV Company have created the structural design of a combat helicopter "WZ-10" for the Chinese army. In fact, the of "nifiga" in CDF posted on drawing clear similarities with the first clear photos that circulated in the summer of 2007 in Chinese Internet forums. It is obviously still at an early design phase, as the concept is - like the first prototype - still of a four-leaf main rotor. It can therefore be assumed that it is not a subsequently prepared drawing.





> European Rotor System - Eurocopter
> China's engineers are not satisfied with zweitklassigem material. Since the developments of MBB - which has been merged into Eurocopter - Europe has the rotor system "ahead". Accordingly, it is not surprising that in 1997, a nine-year collaboration agreement with Eurocopter France over $ 70 million has been completed for the development of a rotor system, in which *Eurocopter created quite a bit of construction drawings for China* - of course at a reasonable, moderate transport helicopter (to the arms embargo, the Europeans deal?). AVIC II also sought from the summer of 2000, at various events this - also denoted by Z-10 - Transport Helicopter imagine that showed strong similarities with the Agusta-Bell AB 139th European Transmission - Agusta: A similar agreement in 1999 with Agusta (Italy . completed) - this time over $ 30 million for the joint development of the transmission of the future transport helicopter Canadian engine: *The Canadian Pratt & Whitney Company was selected as the engine supplier. Starting from the year 2001 to the beginning of 2004 a total of 10 gas turbines were PT6B-67 C or P & W PT6C-67C delivered (1,531 shp continuous 1.142 kW) to drive the "transport helicopter" that were connected from 2002 only through ground tests with European components. It is now known that Canada has provided up to 50 additional engines -. Should be incorporated in future transport helicopter in China, ie the conversion of the whole project raised as a "dual-use" program, in order to get Western aid, while the best on available in the market developments combined.*





> the first blurry Internetfototos show a four-leaf main rotor which likely stems from the original Russian design phase. Apparently the original rotor design was not as successful with four leaves, because at the turn of 2003/2004 new first flights took place - this time with a modified 5-petalled rotor system.


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## AViet

for truth said:


> i have also heard that Vietnam is building a 10th gen fighter aircraft . I'm sure they will reveal it by around 2500 AD or 2600 AD. People have also rumored that Vietnam is developing a missile that will travel at the speed of light,but no one can confirm this.



At least India should thank me for my lesson on intelligence, instead of being jingoistic. We have defeated bigger enemies like US, France, ... thank to our strong tradition of intelligence.


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## bigzgvr4

AViet said:


> At least India should thank me for my lesson on intelligence, instead of being jingoistic. We have defeated bigger enemies like US, France, ... thank to our strong tradition of intelligence.


yea may be france not US regime was changed


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## for truth

AViet said:


> At least India should thank me for my lesson on intelligence, instead of being jingoistic. We have defeated bigger enemies like US, France, ... thank to our strong tradition of intelligence.



My lord, your display of intelligence was exemplary. I thank you with my heart felt gratitude. And i wish you defeat even bigger enemies like Martians, Inter galactic forces etc with your intelligence.

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## Arav_Rana

Nothing wrong if Russia helped China in helicopter design. They have money and they can buy anything. and this hello is fulfilling the requirement of China. that's all matter.

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## Echo_419

cirr said:


> Calm down you guys.
> 
> The Russians like to claim credits for themselves these days.
> 
> Even if what the Russian says is true, it was only "Concept Design" which happened in 1995 when China had nothing.
> 
> This is 2013 and not a single bit of the Z-10 originates from Russia.



I think you are right 
Even if the Chinese took some help so what everybody does name me one country that doesnot

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## Skyman

where is the proof given by the Russians? You want to accuse, show me 100% proof it's a Russian design. Then I will take it seriously and acknowledge it. 
Anyone can draw up something and say this and that. Russians are not very trustworthy considering their people have been telling everyone how China is buying Russian weapons every 6 months. These Russian statements have been so wrong the Russians have lost all credibility among the knowledgable people.

What's funny is these little Indians laughing at others when literally EVERY single weapon in their military is a foreign weapon. They don't even have the basic ability to reverse engineer. That's how backward they are. Utterly clueless beyond belief. Now we hear them begging the French to get a technology transfer of engines. Cannot make their own weapons so they shamefully beg. Pathetic to be honest.

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## bigzgvr4

Dont worry China this helicopter has a higher service ceilling then the tejas So You can shoot tejas but tejas cannot 



Echo_419 said:


> I think you are right
> Even if the Chinese took some help so what everybody does name me one country that doesnot



India Does not every thing is In house in indian Defence i.e Cheetah chooper, Super Cheetah chooper, LCA,Arjun,AKASH,TRISHUL,etc

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## Skyman

bigzgvr4 said:


> Dont worry China this helicopter has a higher service ceilling then the tejas So You can shoot tejas but tejas cannot



We don't compare ourselves with India. Why bother comparing yourself with a country that is behind you?
We have already defeated them in war, we don't need to even give them any attention to their country. They are just a pest, nothing more than that.

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## Akasa

I'm surprised people are still commenting here when China has just revealed its newest stealth drone.

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## Aramsogo

I hope this article is right. I hope this Russian, American, European,Indian (everyone but Chinese) attack helicopter kicks some serious a$$ in South Tibet. I hope it's going to be like shooting jawans in a barrel with the WZ-10.

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## qwerrty

i believe the story is true, but kamov only responsible for design concept only as clearly stated in the article. the real engineering works are in chinese hands. hence, the reasons why they consulted agusta and euro-copter to help with the transmission and rotor blades and PW engines fro protoypes, instead of kamov.. not 100% indigenous, but who cares. if they buy bullets or arty shells from others like some country, then that's big deal. lol

the y-20 has* a lot* of help from *antonov* too, so don't be surprised if news like this pop up one day. i think most people already know this.

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## Alfa-Fighter

qwerrty said:


> i believe the story is true, but kamov only responsible for design concept only as clearly stated in the article. the real engineering works are in chinese hands. hence, the reasons why they consulted agusta and euro-copter to help with the transmission and rotor blades and PW engines fro protoypes, instead of kamov's.. not 100% indigenous, but who cares. if they buy bullets or arty shells from others like some country, then that's big deal. lol
> 
> the y-20 has* a lot* of helps from *antonov* too, so don't be surprised if news like this pop up one day. i think most people already know this.



should be equal to all, why now defending china , it should acknowledge it taken foreign help why hiding and lying to others.


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## qwerrty

Alfa-Fighter said:


> yes , very true in case of China but in case of India "Druv" , things reverse.



the druv still heavily relies on imported critical and non critical parts. lol





Alfa-Fighter said:


> should be equal to all, why now defending china , it should acknowledge it taken foreign help why hiding and lying to others.



the chinese get help for the design and make everything themselves. india has a lot help openly from others.. build the final products based on components made by others and still can't get em to work. not equal..

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## chinapakistan

You know guys, this is not even a news, just a *blog* by a common bloger....... Do you guys seirously believe it? 
If I open a blog and say all indian jets, tanks are designed by me, do you believe that ?  
Indian just believe what they want to believe, but never base on the truth or reasonable logic thinking, this is the indian.

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## scherz

This only means that the Z-10 is such superior that the russians claim to be theirs

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## sweetgrape

Black Widow said:


> Indian projects are not secret, we all know what comes from where. In LCA/ALH/Arjuna etc we all know which foreign country helped on what subcomponent.
> 
> Our datasheet are open, we never claim we made something, which we not.. While Chinese copy all stuff, still they try to show they have achieve on there own.
> 
> J10: Lavi design
> FC1 : Some Russian design
> J11 : Russian design
> Tanks : Russian design
> 
> remember 50-60% of job done when you copy the basic design. Suppose I get detail design of F22, how much it will difficult to make something like F22?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese need open media which can reveal the truth. The truth is hidden among Communist leader...



The emperor, without clothes, is laughed at!!



JSCh said:


> WZ-10 was initially designed and tested with US P&W, Russian and Ukrainian engine.
> 
> But later China developed Wozhou (WZ)-9 turbo-shaft engine that is used in production WZ-10 attack helicopter.
> 
> WZ-9 IS a Chinese made indigenous engine.



No, WZ-9 was designed by indian, here is the reason:WZ-9 "copied" US p&w, but there are indians in the teams that designing p&w engines, So, WZ-9 was designed by indian!!

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## qwerrty

chinapakistan said:


> You know guys, this is not even a news, just a *blog* by a common bloger....... Do you guys seirously believe it?
> If I open a blog and say all indian jets, tanks are designed by me, do you believe that ?
> Indian just believe what they want to believe, but never base on the truth or reasonable logic thinking, this is the indian.



it's form aviation week at the heli-expo. this is different from the other bs we've heard of. i doubt anyone is this shameless..


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## DARKY

This totally makes the chines propaganda lady naked infornt of every one internationally the Chines CCP has been hiding many facts under the cover of false and hallow propaganda even today they steal or buy Russian concepts and designs and use their cheap chines paint to cover it up and rest of the Chines rejoice over international forms as if it is their own baby where as in reality it was the Russian seed which they grew up as their baby... meanwhile the Russian laugh on them secretly with their next chines wife.







And at times rest of the world get to see the chines exposed like this. 

May be I drank a glass or two vodka more with that chines escort last night.....

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## hk299792458

Chinese design, russian validation, consulting contract signed in 1994 and stopped in 1998 because of exorbitant fee and low added value from Kamov design office.

It's not correct to say that this is Kamov's design.

However I can understand the reaction of Kamov today as they never succeed in selling Ka-50/52 in China because of Z-10, but take the risk to lose credibility.

I suggest to close this thread as this is not really a "news".

Henri K.

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## Navigator

I would wanted to note that Mikheev insists Kamov created only preliminary design, the rest of work Chinese waged on their own, to the credit of their country.



> The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says.
> 
> In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.
> 
> "Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret," he says.
> 
> The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.
> 
> *After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.
> 
> Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.*
> 
> "So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.
> 
> Mikheev would not comment on the WZ-10's performance. "That is a question for the Chinese," he says. "I know what I have done."







HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design

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## Secur

DARKY said:


> Chines CCP has been hiding many facts under the cover of false and hallow propaganda *even today they steal or buy Russian concepts and designs and use their cheap chines paint to cover it up*


_
*After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China* and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. *Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.*

"So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.
_

I would like to advise you to restrict your language on PDF , it is clearly against the forum rules and no Moderator will tolerate such sort of abusive language here so try and learn to express yourself or in this case vent out your frustration in a civil manner before a Chinese accidentally hits the report button ...

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## illusion8

chinapakistan said:


> You know guys, this is not even a news, just a *blog* by a common bloger....... Do you guys seirously believe it?
> If I open a blog and say all indian jets, tanks are designed by me, do you believe that ?
> Indian just believe what they want to believe, but never base on the truth or reasonable logic thinking, this is the indian.



Why don't you make an effort into proving that it was not Kamov / Russians who actually designed your Z10 or most of your equipment instead of talking about Indians?


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## hk299792458

GR!FF!N said:


> well,as usual thread started on something else and now we are discussing on Arjun and 1962 war,typical chinese..  in most defence forum,this kind of ridiculous posts generally gets deleted within minutes..but it is
> 
> @topic..China designed their helos by Kamov and used P&W engines,there is nothing wrong with it.but instead of accepting that truth,they are using trolling as their last resort.by the way,congrats China for their nice attack helo(and i meant it).
> 
> 
> 
> actually Indians,American and British fought for them.I remember an article how British(and Indian) pilots flew their transport aircrafts over dangerous mountain region to bring Chinese soldiers into N-E camps to train them.



I repeat - Z-10 is chinese design, russian (Komav + several others DO) validation was required, contract was signed and started in 1994, stopped in 1998 because of very high price and low added value.

This is a very common pratice in most of the chinese programs launched in 80'/90', today this pratice is less and less used.

Henri K.

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## ANPP

hk299792458 said:


> I repeat - Z-10 is chinese design, russian (Komav + several others DO) validation was required, contract was signed and started in 1994, stopped in 1998 because of very high price and low added value.
> 
> This is a very common pratice in most of the chinese programs launched in 80'/90', today this pratice is less and less used.
> 
> Henri K.




What he is stating is that concept of heli was prepared by Kamov. They are not commenting on development phase and that could be possible though bez Kamov worked from 1994 to 98 for China to develop heli...


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## hk299792458

ANPP said:


> What he is stating is that concept of heli was prepared by Kamov. They are not commenting on development phase and that could be possible though bez Kamov worked from 1994 to 98 for China to develop heli...



That's exactly what I said, the concept (design) is from China, not russian.

To give you more details - Kamov & some DOs were mainly consulted in 2 areas, global design validation and fire control system architecture. 

Global design validation means that China sent out first mockup and some physical caracteristics (_mostly related to aerodynamic_), and Russians used their methods and installations to validate the calculated caracteristics provided by Chinese designers.

Fire control systems architecture is an another part consulted, but the solution advised by Russians is an seperated system-to-function architecture, and not at all integrated. This part is completely refused by Chinese designers, and is one of the reasons for why China had stopped the contract.

To simplify, Kamov (& several DOs) had acted as primary design validator (POC validator), nothing less, nothing more.

Saying that the concept is Kamov's, for me, is just clearly lying. That's why I said that Kamov takes the risk to lose their credibility, and I don't really understand the real reason behind this...

Henri K.

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## 帅的一匹

&#65315;hina will be the competitor of Russia in world range weapon market in the near future. They are busy dealing with us.

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## KRAIT

What's wrong with it ? In defense, everything is fair. If the design bureau is in developing phase and a country needs the helis which are much more capable that they can't design right now, do anything to get the capability rather than delaying it on Pride.

We also have our nuclear submarine program with help of Russians. We should take their and French help a lot in many areas while our defense industry develops.
*
Good decision by Chinese.*

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## Donatello

Skyman said:


> Still hurting from the 1962 mauling are we?  feel the burn.
> It must suck to be in a country that is ALWAYS behind China. You can't make your own weapons, can't beat us in war, can't overtake our economy, can't put a man into space, can't win a gold medal at the Olympics to save your life, can't host a commonwealth games without turning into a laughing stock by the international community. We look down on India and you damn well know it. You know what, that eats you up alive.
> India is just a footnote in the global pecking order.



Dude, but what about ISI and Pakistan being responsible for India's all the woes?

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## XTREME

*HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design​*
The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says.

In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.

*"Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret,"* he says.







The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. *"They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract,"* he says.

After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.

*"So I wish success to the helicopter,"* Mikheev says.

Mikheev would not comment on the WZ-10's performance. *"That is a question for the Chinese,"* he says. *"I know what I have done."*

HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design


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## knightmare

Donatello said:


> Dude, but what about ISI and Pakistan being responsible for India's all the woes?



Clearly, this is a joint project (making India miserable), concerned member please recognize their contribution. 

Seriously you guys are taking 'sucking up' to new limits.

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## Water Car Engineer

March 07, 2013 
*Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.
*
The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the People&#8217;s Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyev&#8217;s announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.

*Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian company&#8217;s role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.
*
*Kamov worked on the preliminary design at China&#8217;s request in 1995. &#8220;Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China,&#8221; Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, &#8220;was accepted for development,&#8221; he adds.
*
Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.

The Z-10&#8217;s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.

According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.

Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.

&#8220;So I wish success to the helicopter,&#8221; Mikheyev adds.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_03_07_2013_p0-556313.xml


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## Myth_buster_1

Water Car Engineer said:


> March 07, 2013
> *Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.
> *
> The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the Peoples Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyevs announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.
> 
> *Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian companys role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.
> *
> *Kamov worked on the preliminary design at Chinas request in 1995. Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China, Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, was accepted for development, he adds.
> *
> Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.
> 
> The Z-10s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.
> 
> According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.
> 
> Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.
> 
> So I wish success to the helicopter, Mikheyev adds.
> 
> Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10





The following section illustrates the scale of involvement of non-Indian companies in the design.

The European Union

Belgium

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ

Variants of the ALH have incorporated rocket launchers produced by the Belgiam company, Forges de Zeebrugge FZ.

For example, the photo below shows the FZ nameplate on the rocket launcher mounted on ALH on display at Farnborough International, UK on 14 August 2006.

[Photo Caption] © Robin Ballantyne

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ confirmed that they have contracts with both HAL and the Indian Army, which have been approved by the Belgian authorities and are subject to end-use agreements. Confidentiality clauses contained within the contract prevented fuller disclosure of any details surrounding the nature of the deal.12

France

Turbomeca

The French company Turbomeca (now part of the Safran Group) has undertaken both the direct export of engines from France to India but has also established licensed production and technology transfer arrangements with HAL to produce engines for the ALH. In February 2003, it was announced that Turbomeca and HAL had signed three major contracts. These included a contract for the supply of TM 333 2B2 engines for application on the HAL helicopter; and another contract for the repair and overhaul licence for the TM 333 2B2.13 The HAL website states that the ALH continues to use the "Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 Twin Turbo-shaft Engine 746 kw (1000 SHP)".14

Turbomeca confirmed that it has three contracts with HAL, two of which cover the supply, repair, servicing and overhaul of the TM333-2B2 engines for the ALH. The company also stated that all its contracts were regulated by the appropriate French export licensing authorities.15 However in its response to our enquiries the French Government stated that the engines in question are not classified as war material by the French regulations and do not appear in the list of items subject to the Myanmar embargo. In our view, this interpretation is wrong because non-listed items in the EC Dual Use Regulation if incorporated into military items bound for embargoed destinations become licensable, that is subject to the embargo (for more on this see the section on EU export controls on re-exports over military equipment below).16 It would therefore appear that the French Government places no restrictions on the transfer of equipment fundamental to the operation of the ALH notwithstanding the fact that it is clearly also used as a military aircraft.

GIAT Industries (Nexter) and MBDA

In July 2006 defence news service Shepherd Rotorhub quoted Hindustan

Aeronautics' chairman Ashok Baweja describing a weaponisation programme was under way for the ALH. This was to include a 20mm gun from the French company GIAT and rockets from European missile manufacturer MBDA.17 In December 2006, GIAT (now renamed Nexter) announced that it had been awarded a contract by HAL for:

"the supply of 20 THL 20 turrets that will equip the Indian Armed Forces' Advanced Light Helicopter. The order covers the development phase of 20 turrets. The first deliveries will take place in 2008...."18

In March 2007 Jane's Information Group reported that HAL signed a deal with MBDA in July 2006 for the supply of air-to-air Mistral missiles for armed versions of the ALH.19

Nexter has confirmed that it does supply products to HAL for the ALH. This currently includes twenty 'THL 20' 20mm Helicopter turrets. The company also stated that all of its exports are regulated and approved by the appropriate French export licensing authorities and that any additional contracts to supply the ALH that were not stipulated in the original contract would require a further export licence.20

Germany

Eurocopter Deutschland (formerly MBB) and now wholly owned by Eurocopter

Eurocopter has been involved (originally as MBB) with the development of the ALH since at least July 1984.21 In November 1995, it was reported that Eurocopter had submitted a proposal to the Indian Defence Ministry to "co-produce the ALH designed by HAL. It plans to set up production facilities in India to manufacture the ALH for both local and export markets."22 In 2006 both companies were advertising their mutual co-operation: Eurocopter noting that it was supplying rotor blades for the ALH,23 and HAL announcing that "Eurocopter, the helicopter manufacturer owned by EADS, has been cooperating with HAL for over four decades.... India was the first nation with which Eurocopter signed a licence agreement for technology transfer."24 Amnesty International wrote to Eurocopter in March 2007 asking for clarification over its role in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

SITEC Aerospace

SITEC Aerospace manufactures a range of components and complete assemblies for flight/engine controls for various types of aircraft.25 According to company literature on display at Farnborough International 2006, SITEC provides components for the ALH.

SITEC Aerospace confirmed that they supply parts for the ALH, but that they do not export these directly to HAL, but supply them to another unnamed German manufacturer who subsequently incorporates these items into other systems for the ALH.26

Italy

Elettronica Aster SpA

The Italian company Elettronica Aster SpA on its website describes HAL as a major customer. According to the "Company and Program Overview", Elettronica Aster SpA has produced and supplied the ALH with a brake system.27

Amnesty International wrote to Elettronica Aster SpA in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as to its involvement in the development of the ALH. In its reply dated 15 March, the company had no comment on the specifics of its supply of components for the ALH, stating only that Elettronica Aster SpA's "export activity is regulated by the rules called out in the Italian Law no.185/'90 (with amendment DDL 1927), establishing the regulation for weapons import/export/transit."28

Sweden

Saab AB

Saab Avitronics, the South African joint venture company owned by Saab AB (Sweden) and Saab Grintek (South Africa, itself part owned by Saab AB), has been awarded a multi-million dollar export contract from HAL for the supply of self-protection equipment for installation on the ALH for the Indian Armed Forces.29

Amnesty International wrote to Saab AB on 1 June 2007 asking for clarification over its involvement with the ALH. Saab AB replied saying: "All export approvals from the concerned authorities are in place. The export licences are supported by an end-user certificate."30

The United Kingdom

APPH Precision Hydraulics

At the 2004 Farnborough arms fair, the UK company APPH Precision Hydraulics Ltd displayed its Hydraulic Package as the following:

"HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Hydraulic Package designed and manufactured by APPH Ltd" 

Amnesty International wrote to in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as its involvement in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

FPT Industries Ltd

In 1993 it was reported that FPT Industries Ltd had been awarded a contract to supply floatation equipment for the ALH under development by HAL.31 FTP Industries is part of GKN Aerospace Services Ltd. In 1997, it was reported that FPT Industries' self-sealing fuel tank systems were being used in the ALH.32 In 2007, the FPT Industries website stated that: "FPT equipment is fitted to a range of helicopters including ALH".33

In 1997, the then GKN Westland Aerospace Ltd (renamed GKN Aerospace Services Ltd in 2001) was awarded a contract to supply the internal gearbox BR715 for HAL's ALH.34

GKN Aerospace Services Ltd confirmed that they have supplied fuel tanks, floatation equipment and related gaskets and seals for the ALH, but that these are subject to end-use certificates stipulating that they would not be re-exported. The company stated that future supplies for the ALH would be for components and kits for fuel tanks that would be assembled locally in India, but would again be subject to similar end-use undertakings.35 However, while the UK Government normally requires the presentation of end-use documentation as part of the licensing process, it does not as a rule then include explicit end-use restrictions as a condition on the export licence . If this is the case in this instance, what force those end-use undertakings have is unclear.

Other third-country involvement in the ALH:

The United States

It should be noted that the US embargo on Myanmar does not specifically mention indirect supplies, nor does it place controls on civilian components that are incorporated into military systems. However, indirect supplies of US military components or other controlled items are subject to re-export controls under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) system which specifically states that re-export of US-controlled content can only take place with the express permission of the US Government. Section 123.9 "Country of ultimate destination" provides that:

"(a) The country designated as the country of ultimate destination on an application for an export licence, or on a shipper's export declaration where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter, must be the country of ultimate end-use. The written approval of the Department of State must be obtained before reselling, diverting, transferring, transshipping, or disposing of a defense article in any country other than the country of ultimate destination as stated on the export licence, or on the shipper's export declaration in cases where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter. Exporters must ascertain the specific end-use and end-user prior to submitting an application to the Office of Munitions Control or claiming an exemption under this subchapter. End-use must be confirmed and should not be assumed."36

However, it is not clear whether components supplied by US companies for the ALH have been specifically designed or adapted for military use. If not, they may fall outside this specification.

Aitech Systems Ltd

In September 2005, it was reported that Aitech Systems Ltd, a US company, had announced it had "received the first production order from the Lahav Division of Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) for Display & Mission Computers" for inclusion in the glass cockpit of the ALH. The Lahav Division of IAI is under contract to HAL to develop and provide the avionics system for the HAL.37

Deliveries for the first production of Display and Mission Computers were due to be completed by May 2006:

"Aitech will build 400 Display & Mission Computers for the ALH program, to be delivered over the next several years. In addition, Aitech is under contract to IAI to provide the next generation of Display & Mission Computer." 38

Amnesty International wrote to the company in March 2007 asking for clarifications over its involvement with the ALH, but has yet to receive a reply (as of 25 June 2007).

Lord Corporation

In January 2004, it was reported that Lord Corporation had announced that it had been "awarded the first production contract for its active vibration control system" for the ALH. Lord Corporation had been supplying other parts (such as elastomeric bearings) for the main tail rotor and parts for various "isolators", which together formed part of an anti-resonance isolator system aimed at reducing vibrations in the aircraft." The report also stated that "Lord would supply the vibration dampers for these aircraft with user approvals."39

The Lord Corporation wrote to Amnesty International on 9 March 2007 saying that contractual obligations of confidentiality prevented any disclosure of the Lord Corporation's involvement in military products, other than information currently in the public domain. The company also stipulated that it was fully aware of government compliance issues and "strives to be in full compliance with all applicable regulations."40


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## The A-5

JSCh said:


> WZ-10 was initially designed and tested with US P&W, Russian and Ukrainian engine.
> 
> But later China developed Wozhou (WZ)-9 turbo-shaft engine that is used in production WZ-10 attack helicopter.
> 
> WZ-9 IS a Chinese made indigenous engine.



Dont think so.



> The domestic WZ-9) was designed by the 602 Research Institute, with Ukrainian and Russian assistance. The transmission system was developed with the help of Agusta Westland.



http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...uFuF12V6HKEvnPrbQ&sig2=dch_TGgYd1ArnV8eskIecg


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## The A-5

@Myth_buster_1

You are neither Chinese not Indian and nor Russian. You are just a self-deluded pakistani moron
who likes putting his fingers into everything.

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## JSCh

The A-5 said:


> Dont think so.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...uFuF12V6HKEvnPrbQ&sig2=dch_TGgYd1ArnV8eskIecg


You quoted


> The *domestic* WZ-9) was designed by the 602 Research Institute, with Ukrainian and Russian assistance. The transmission system was developed with the help of Agusta Westland.


Domestic ergo Indigenous.


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## IND151

arav said:


> Nothing wrong if Russia helped China in helicopter design. They have money and they can buy anything. and this hello is fulfilling the requirement of China. that's all matter.



agreed.

its better to take help from countries in such projects which have enormous experience of designing military platforms

China had no experience of designing attack helis in 1990s, so taking outside help was very good decision


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## Developereo

The A-5 said:


> @Myth_buster_1
> 
> You are neither Chinese not Indian and nor Russian. You are just a self-deluded pakistani moron
> who likes putting his fingers into everything.



This thread is not about India either, so what is your point?


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## Arav_Rana

IND151 said:


> agreed.
> 
> its better to take help from countries in such projects which have enormous experience of designing military platforms
> 
> China had no experience of designing attack helis in 1990s, so taking outside help was very good decision




Problem is that being in good relationship with Russia, India never tried to take such advantage. We are asking tot of everything, but we are not learning a bit from it. 
India needs to learn from China.


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## DrSomnath999

March 07, 2013 
Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.

The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the Peoples Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyevs announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.

Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian companys role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.

Kamov worked on the preliminary design at Chinas request in 1995. Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China, Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, was accepted for development, he adds.

*Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.*

The Z-10s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.

According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.

Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.

So I wish success to the helicopter, Mikheyev adds.

Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10

Chinese Attack Helicopter's Secret Russian Roots


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## Skull and Bones

You're late in posting this thread.


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## DrSomnath999

well i didnt find it in similiar thread section.

Link please if true then mods merge it


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## sweetgrape

hehe, I have thought that, whether will second indian post the article here after put former one with sticky thread together?!
Hehe, guys, you are too late, don't worry, there will be more similar article later, like, on J20, J31.

And, If the moderator put the thread with sticky thread together too, Maybe the third similar thread will be opened by another indian!!!

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## Ayush

so many threads on china russia j10,j20 etc.


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## XTREME

*China's Cutting-Edge Attack Helicopter Is Actually A Russian Design​*





A recent post on Aviation Week revealed that China's cutting edge Z-10 helicopter is actually Russian.
That's right, China's premier attack helicopter, a first for the fledgling super power, was a product of the Russian company Kamov, Guy Norris of Aviation Week reports.
"Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau ... dropped the proverbial bombshell at Heli-Expo here in Las Vegas this afternoon," Norris writes, "Mikheyev told an astonished crowd that Chinas Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter was actually designed in great secrecy under contract for China by Kamov."
Kamov is a Russian "rotary wing" helicopter manufacturing company which has seen great success building attack and transport helicopters for the Russian Air Force.
China played it off the whole time as if its company Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation was spearheading the lead on development. Maybe Kamov and the Russian felt bad for rejecting China's bids to buy MiG jets and attack helicopters in the late 90s early 200s.
It's important to note that Kamov was not the only entity that gave China a hand. Pratt and Whitney, and Canadian defense company, paid a hefty $75 million dollar fine for delivering helicopter engine hardware for the Z-10 to China.
Dave Majumdar of Flight Global write:
After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, [Mikheyev] says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, [Mikheyev] insists.
Majumdar explained that the Russian company kept the whole thing under wraps, "for obvious reasons," Mikheyev said.
China has poured money into its slow-moving defense manufacturing and fabrication industry in an attempt to shock it to life  the sector has been plagued with inefficiencies and corruption. China has made concerted efforts to curtail it's import of arms from Russia in the hopes of saving money and making a buck or two providing exports.


Read more: Russia Built Chinese Z10 Helicopter - Business Insider


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## Luftwaffe

The argument is poor, by the logic US got its hand and purchased the project YAK-141, does it mean F-35 is russian made. 

Moderators you did merge it but I would want it to be scrapped or the Topic [russian design] would go on and eventually the Thread would die at the hands on hindustani members.

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## flamer84

XTREME said:


> *China's Cutting-Edge Attack Helicopter Is Actually A Russian Design​*



That came as a shock

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## 帅的一匹

WZ10 is totally indeginous, we develop nuts and bolts of it. Anyway, the WZ10 outlook is not Russian style at all.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> WZ10 is totally indeginous, we develop nuts and bolts of it. Anyway, the WZ10 outlook is not Russian style at all.



Having the design is one thing. Materialise it is a another thing. Even without the design, we would have produce another type of attack helo. You can have great design but you lack the technology and manufacturing technique. U still can't make it happen. Even the Russian admit never involved in the whole development of WZ-10. From engine , rotor , manufacturing and the operating system is 100% solved by ourselves.

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## xuxu1457



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## gslv mk3

HongWu said:


> *I've never seen an Indian designed avionics system and combat sensors*. You will see LCA in service long before LCH. *India is trying to go from making nothing to making a combat helicopter.* That is impossible.
> 
> 
> It should be comparable to Eurocopter Tiger.
> 
> *
> Those numbers are all made up by the Indian media or the government. India hasn't even made a simple helicopter by itself or even made its own avionics*. You will need to see LCA in service first long before India makes its own combat helicopter. But China has a really advanced one already.
> 
> 
> .









on topic:What is the empty weight,MTOW and the top speed??


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## Beast

gslv mk3 said:


> on topic:What is the empty weight,MTOW and the top speed??



A simple search online tells you an estimate...

CAIC WZ-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## sweetgrape



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## cirr

Too many new attack helicopters but not enough hangars&#65311;


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## Beast

cirr said:


> Too many new attack helicopters but not enough hangars&#65311;


That is not WZ-10... Look at the canopy.


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## hk299792458

Jinan Military Region : 54th Army Aviation *Z-10*'s flight training






Henri K.


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## hk299792458

Shenyang Military Region : Army Aviation Z10 and Z19 helicopters carried out a new kind of multi-missile live-fire training






Henri K.

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## cirr



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## DANGER-ZONE

I am in love with this chopper, how many KD-10 it can carry .. 16 ?


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## uzair ramay

pakistan shud buy these great machines...

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## Fsjal

uzair ramay said:


> pakistan shud buy these great machines...



But isn't Pakistan going for apache?

Are they?


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## uzair ramay

i dnt know//...


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## Beast

Fsjal said:


> But isn't Pakistan going for apache?
> 
> Are they?



No. Apache is American tech. Too many string and Pakistan is not having a good time with US. It's safer to depend on China then US. But at the moment, WZ-10 is still not clear for export. Probably when domestic order is a bit ease. They will allow for export order.


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## cirr

WZ-10 is the present&#65292;the following is the future&#65306;































 You are wrong if you think the above are mere line drawings for fun&#12290;

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## Fsjal

cirr said:


> WZ-10 is the present&#65292;the following is the future&#65306;
> 
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> You are wrong if you think the above are mere line drawings for fun&#12290;



Reminds me of Comanche. Anyway, what is the name?


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## pissybits

cirr said:


> You are wrong if you think the above are mere line drawings for fun&#12290;



Let's not get too ahead of ourselves now... lol obviously these are fan drawings, even the bottom right signature says: "grassroots designer." The top left label also starts with "grassroots edition." It's a cool design but you shouldn't mislead people by implying it's some official leaked top secret next gen design.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> WZ-10 is the present&#65292;the following is the future&#65306;
> 
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> You are wrong if you think the above are mere line drawings for fun&#12290;



Post where these pictures were taken from and all the rumors associated with it. Credibility is the matter here.


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## TheFlyingPretzel

The Americans can take the Apache up their backside. I'm wanking off to the WZ-10 from now on. This baby looks absolutely insane.


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## gambit

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> The Americans can take the Apache up their backside. I'm wanking off to the WZ-10 from now on. This baby looks absolutely insane.


Actually, we have been shoving the Apache up others' backsides for a long time now. From what I heard, not a very pleasant experience on the receiving 'ends'.

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## That Guy

Regardless of what anyone thinks of it, the WZ-10 has given the Chinese their first domestically made truly reliable close range air-support system.


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## Nefory

cirr said:


> WZ-10 is the present&#65292;the following is the future&#65306;
> 
> 
> You are wrong if you think the above are mere line drawings for fun&#12290;



Maybe it was not a total joke, since Chinese military industry did had some wild yet stupid ideas from time to time, SAC during 5th Gen bidding is a good example.

There might be some Chinese companies are embracing coaxial rotors for the next gen helo, and again notice I said might be, but sure not the Chinese military.


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## nomi007

chinese must be thankful to pakistan for giving excess to stealth blackhawk wreckage


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## jamesseo89

I wish that PAC will join in the future Z-10 program along with other helicopter program going on in China.

Also PAC should look in to producing about 30 Z-10P Block-Is and later Block-II & IIIs


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## That Guy

jamesseo89 said:


> I wish that PAC will join in the future Z-10 program along with other helicopter program going on in China.
> 
> Also PAC should look in to producing about 30 Z-10P Block-Is and later Block-II & IIIs



Probably not gonna happen, at least not for a while. PA prefers US and Russian helis, and so far Chinese helis have not proven that their the better choice for PA. That's mostly to do with the lack of maturity of the system, but if China can mature it, then PA may consider it.


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## cirr

Z-19 says hello to &#65288;up and coming&#65289;*Z-20*&#65306;

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## Kompromat

@cirr Any images of Z-20?


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## Sasquatch

Aeronaut said:


> @cirr Any images of Z-20?



I posted a thread on it a while back, not sure how up to date, but the flight of it is this year. It's suppose to be China's version of a blackhawk helicopter. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/229163-z-20-a.html

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## Neptune

I see that there's a conflict between WZ-10 and T-129 at Pakistan's attack heli tender. Which means both projects achieved their goals successfully. I just checked the specs of both helis. Wz's engine is better than Atak, while attack offers a better payload. This list goes on. WZ fills a disadvantage of Atak while Atak does the same at WZ's disadvantages. I wish both choppers a long way to go. And good kills of course 

(Btw my first post at Chinese Sec)

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## Akasa

Neptune said:


> I see that there's a conflict between WZ-10 and T-129 at Pakistan's attack heli tender. Which means both projects achieved their goals successfully. I just checked the specs of both helis. Wz's engine is better than Atak, while attack offers a better payload. This list goes on. WZ fills a disadvantage of Atak while Atak does the same at WZ's disadvantages. I wish both choppers a long way to go. And good kills of course
> 
> (Btw my first post at Chinese Sec)



What the WZ-10 needs is a 1600 horsepower turboshaft as with the AH64. The sooner the better.

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## Sniper_Lycan

China is on way ..... Amazing ..


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## Obambam



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## madmusti

Yes it will be hard Race for PAC´s tender in choose of the next Helicopter.






 @Neptune

Don´t think so about the Engine ,i mean it´s enough and on the Future Turkey will develop his own Engines 

But i like to the Made in China from Chinese People and not European Concerns in China.

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## Beast

Obambam said:


>



(1:47 - 1:55) show extreme mobility of WZ-10... We can see in fact, there is weapon load on WZ-10. Engine thrust to weight ratio of it is good.

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## cirr

Everthing will only get better&#65292;much better&#12290;

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## giant panda



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## Nishan_101

giant panda said:


>



So is there any deal for getting 30-50 Z-10Ps from China or any license production and JV on helicopters between PAC and CAIC???


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## Beast

Nishan_101 said:


> So is there any deal for getting 30-50 Z-10Ps from China or any license production and JV on helicopters between PAC and CAIC???



No. from chief designer of WZ-10, it has not cleared for export by PLA so far. WZ-10 are now focussing on fulfilling the new of PLA helo aviation corps. But he hint, it might be cleared for export in future.


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## Nishan_101

Beast said:


> No. from chief designer of WZ-10, it has not cleared for export by PLA so far. WZ-10 are now focussing on fulfilling the new of PLA helo aviation corps. But he hint, it might be cleared for export in future.



I am bit sure that it is available to PAA, as there were some reports in 2005 that PA has seen its performance. I am sure that once US pressure goes away and GoP could have some money to be given to Pak Military then we might see a deal or a JV between CAIC and PAC.


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## Beast

Nishan_101 said:


> I am bit sure that it is available to PAA, as there were some reports in 2005 that PA has seen its performance. I am sure that once US pressure goes away and GoP could have some money to be given to Pak Military then we might see a deal or a JV between CAIC and PAC.



No. It's not. Check out zuhai airshow 2012 video of interview with WZ-10 chief designer. Right from his mouth. Provided you understand mandarin.


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## hk299792458

Jinan Military Region : Amy's Aviation Regiment Z-10 and Z-19 conduct joint exercises with ground force

A mixed detachement of armed helicopters went to attack a target zone located in 300km from the base.






Henri K.

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## cirr

1st prototype Z-20 has been brought to the test centre from assembly line&#12290;

1st glimpses of the new toy before the year ends&#12290;Definitely&#65281;

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## cirr



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## MJaa

Full Strength Unit of Chinese Z-10 Attack Helicopter ~ Chinese Military Review


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Beast said:


> No. It's not. Check out zuhai airshow 2012 video of interview with WZ-10 chief designer. Right from his mouth. Provided you understand mandarin.



Yes china can sell FC-20 but not a gunship... besides Pak army is more interested in Turkish T-129 ATAK... there are talks of procuring 2 sqds..


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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes china can sell FC-20 but not a gunship... besides Pak army is more interested in Turkish T-129 ATAK... there are talks of procuring 2 sqds..



Why Turkish? are they superior then Chinese? and also cheaper?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Why Turkish? are they superior then Chinese? and also cheaper?



Chinese one is not in service etc... at 45+ million per unit you can hardly call it cheap..


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## 帅的一匹

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Chinese one is not in service etc... at 45+ million per unit you can hardly call it cheap..


Pakistan sure will get brotherhood price, i think much lower. We will modify the configuration according to PPakistan request.

Not to mention China's aircraft whole life circle maitenance cost is much lower.


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## 帅的一匹

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes china can sell FC-20 but not a gunship... besides Pak army is more interested in Turkish T-129 ATAK... there are talks of procuring 2 sqds..


Contract signed already? T-129 is a good heli, will Turkey offer TOT?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

wanglaokan said:


> Contract signed already? T-129 is a good heli, will Turkey offer TOT?



Not sure .. although during PPP govt ... (during gillanis visit to turkey) he announcing geting the helis with tot.. but it failed bcoz of $$ issues... but now army wants abt 2 sqds ASAP.. so im hopeful.


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## Edevelop

*Chinese Attack Helicopter WZ-10 Launches First Air-To-Air Missile*

China&#8217;s first self-developed modern military attack helicopter WZ-10 has launched its first air-to-air missile and successfully intercepted low-altitude targets.

The WZ-10, meaning &#8220;armed helicopter&#8221;, carried out the launch during a live-fire drill involving army aviation troops of the People&#8217;s Liberation Army in the eastern waters off south China&#8217;s Guangdong Province last week.

The drill, which was also the largest-scale activity held to study combat methods since the building up of the aviation troops, conducted six operations, covering fire, close fire support, special assaults, airlanding at the wing side, fire interception and move by leapfrogging.

The WZ-10 is designed primarily for anti-tank missions and was first seen in public at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in the southern city of Zhuhai in Guangdong in 2012.

Chinese Attack Helicopter WZ-10 Launches First Air-To-Air Missile | Ottawa Citizen


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## That Guy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes china can sell FC-20 but not a gunship... besides Pak army is more interested in Turkish T-129 ATAK... there are talks of procuring 2 sqds..



Unless the Turks decide to replace the T-129 powerplants and other US components, PA will be hesitant to buy the heli. Best bet is to go for a heli from a reliable nations to sanction proof the potential fleet.

I'm probably wrong because this is just my hunch, but from what I can tell, PA may already be in talks with China to provide PA with a modified version of the WZ-10. China may actually agree, as it wants to badly test out it's system in actual combat. The current anti-terrorism operations in Pakistan (where PA is using it's fleet of cobras heavily) would greatly benefit China's R&D capability, and in return, Pakistan would get a fleet of attack helis.


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## Beast

That Guy said:


> Unless the Turks decide to replace the T-129 powerplants and other US components, PA will be hesitant to buy the heli. Best bet is to go for a heli from a reliable nations to sanction proof the potential fleet.
> 
> I'm probably wrong because this is just my hunch, but from what I can tell, PA may already be in talks with China to provide PA with a modified version of the WZ-10. China may actually agree, as it wants to badly test out it's system in actual combat. The current anti-terrorism operations in Pakistan (where PA is using it's fleet of cobras heavily) would greatly benefit China's R&D capability, and in return, Pakistan would get a fleet of attack helis.



WZ-10 is busy filling up the order of PLA and PLAN. It will takes at least another 2 years before export is possible.


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## That Guy

Beast said:


> WZ-10 is busy filling up the order of PLA and PLAN. It will takes at least another 2 years before export is possible.



Considering the current economic status for Pakistan, I don't think Pakistan is in a rush to buy new weapons systems, so it can afford to wait 5 more years if it has to.

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## 帅的一匹

That Guy said:


> Considering the current economic status for Pakistan, I don't think Pakistan is in a rush to buy new weapons systems, so it can afford to wait 5 more years if it has to.


I think PA should wait until WZ10 gets more matured. Money is always the problem, but Pakistan-China weapon trade is an unique example in the world.

Pakistan is China's peaceful version of "Israel".

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## cirr

Z-10s flying and arriving en masse in Tianjin for Airshow&#65306;

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## cirr



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## Bilal.

When is it going to get wz16 engines and mmw radar upgrade?


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## Luftwaffe

wanglaokan said:


> I think PA should wait until WZ10 gets more matured. Money is always the problem, but Pakistan-China weapon trade is an unique example in the world.



PA can wait, There is no hurry when there is no money already PA ordered AH-1Z that might be delivered if relations with US gets better...it is not available not before 2015 so it might be more realistic around 2017-2018 

WZ-10 might receive better Armor and upgrades by 2017-2018 that's our hope. From price point between WZ-10 and T-129...the Turkish Gunship is atleast $8m expensive.

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal. said:


> When is it going to get wz16 engines and mmw radar upgrade?



Official source said WZ-16 turbo shaft engine will be inducted at year 2014, mmw radar will be installed after WZ16 operational for WZ10.



Luftwaffe said:


> PA can wait, There is no hurry when there is no money already PA ordered AH-1Z that might be delivered if relations with US gets better...it is not available not before 2015 so it might be more realistic around 2017-2018
> 
> WZ-10 might receive better Armor and upgrades by 2017-2018 that's our hope. From price point between WZ-10 and T-129...the Turkish Gunship is atleast $8m expensive.



T-129 is too expensive to be affordable, wait for WZ10 with wz16 engine and mmr.

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## Luftwaffe

wanglaokan said:


> T-129 is too expensive to be affordable, wait for WZ10 with wz16 engine and mmr.



Unfortunately GOP and military top brass have people inside who always want equipment from certain nations even at higher prices with bribes/kickback like in F-16C/D purchase $250m dollars kickback were involved which were removed in contract by AVM Shahid Latif which had cost him his position to become Air Chief and was retired he is also the initiator of JF-17 program.

So I am personally skeptical if PA would pick Z-10 or even thoroughly evaluate but lets hope.


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## cirr

Flight Demo&#65306;

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/si...fAMtUkjUTFeRmK6Ur1gtoMf5V3zsqbgsVg13DWA/s.swf


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## sweetgrape



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## sweetgrape



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## sweetgrape



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## cnleio

Nice pics! WZ-10 mass production, China WZ-10 + WZ-19 + WZ-9 armed helicopters finally we can creat our *Chinese "101st Aviation Battalion"*.




Very exciting ~!

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## Black Eagle 90

Should PAC try to alocate funds to do JV on all types of Choppers with China..


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## cirr

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Should PAC try to alocate funds to do JV on all types of Choppers with China..



That's a bit difficult&#65292;for China has over 20 types of choppers at various stages of development&#12290;

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## sweetgrape



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## DANGER-ZONE

sweetgrape said:


>



Is it capable of making a vertical loop ?


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## xuxu1457

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Is it capable of making a vertical loop ?



Yes, it can, 
æ*¦ç´10 â æåº

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## sweetgrape



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## xuxu1457

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Is it capable of making a vertical loop ?


Here is
[youku]XNjA1NDU3MDg4[/youku]

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## giant panda

æ*¦ç´10å³å°é²è¡ç·¨éé£è¡è¡¨æ¼ - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc-fZa5vT4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1ybH-V_EIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdwrKV3qqwE

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## cnleio

giant panda said:


>


That's* AWESOME *!!!
Domestic WS-10 engine better than i thought.

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## cnleio

xuxu1457 said:


> Here is
> [youku]XNjA1NDU3MDg4[/youku]



Very Beautiful, Very Strong ... WZ-10 good enough for PLA Army.

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## DANGER-ZONE

I wish that military-morons here in Pakistan stop considering (vintage design) AH-1Z as their next attack chopper and put the available money in this beastly-beauty. 
I'm totally in love with this chopper

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> That's* AWESOME *!!!
> Domestic WS-10 engine better than i thought.



Precisely, those bias western report keep reporting WZ-10 is underpowered and non armour which is nothing but pack of rubbish because they are biased and jealous of China success. If WZ-10 is under powered and under armour then euro tiger chopper shall also be the same too since they both share very similar spec of weight and engine power. But no western report says bad thing about euro tiger.

In fact, the chief designer of WZ-10 is so confident of its performance. He claim WZ-10 can be the top 3 gunship in the world. Not to mention bring it out for performance for the public.

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## Crypto

*China shows off new attack helicopters at air show*

China has been showing off the latest additions to its military air fleet - the new WZ-10 attack helicopters.

Elite army pilots displayed the manoeuvring capabilities of the helicopters with some daring stunts, swoops and plenty of coloured smoke.

Britt Yip reports.






BBC News - China shows off new attack helicopters at air show

-------------

First formal appearance of WZ-10 at an air show.

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## HumanRights

Are they durable enough?


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## xhw1986



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## xhw1986

More Pics:

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## Imran Khan

look great man loved it .

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## cnleio

Pity, WZ-19 was not designed a gun on its body. 
WZ-19 works with WZ-10 armed helicopter, to compose of high-low attacks for PLA Army.

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## Liquidmetal

xhw1986 said:


>



Simply stunning. Lovely pictures and the quality of the workmanship is brilliant. The finishing is top dollar, and looks like a work of art, lovingly designed and put together, the engineering akin to German manufacturing and it is good to see our main arms supplier improving like this. It gives confidence to buy such weapons, that it will last and be reliable and perform well. As the saying goes, if it looks good and feels good, it probably is good. Pleas post more pictures.

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## Liquidmetal

Beast said:


> COme on. Keep the India bashing away. I hope this thread do not turn into some who vs who thread and go downhill. Let us just admire the beauty of Z-19 attack helo.



You are correct in asking for members to avoid the bashing of other people's endeavours. However, there is a tiny part in all of us that recognises the gulf in quality between these two machines. But both efforts are remarkable and kudos to both China and India for developing and building these gunships, alas I wish I could say the same for PK; maybe if China is kind enough, we could do a TOT.


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## twocents

Liquidmetal said:


> You are correct in asking for members to avoid the bashing of other people's endeavours. However, there is a tiny part in all of us that recognises the gulf in quality between these two machines. But both efforts are remarkable and kudos to both China and India for developing and building these gunships, alas I wish I could say the same for PK; maybe if China is kind enough, we could do a TOT.



Great point. I fully agree with you. Excessive trolling gets really tiresome. We will disagree most of the time but let's try to keep our discussion civil.


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## hurt

HumanRights said:


> Are they durable enough?



less than 50 years


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## hurt

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I wish that military-morons here in Pakistan stop considering (vintage design) AH-1Z as their next attack chopper and put the available money in this beastly-beauty.
> I'm totally in love with this chopper



One AH-1Z cost can buy a WZ-10 and a WZ-19.

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## cirr



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## cnleio



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## sweetgrape



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## homing28



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## cnleio

The best pic of WZ-10 armed helicopter:









China WZ-10:












China WZ-19:







China WZ-9:

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## Fsjal

Does anyone know what autocannon the WZ-10 uses?


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## cnleio

Fsjal said:


> Does anyone know what autocannon the WZ-10 uses?


23mm type23-1/2 autocannon:

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## Liquidmetal

cnleio said:


>



Oh fantastic.

China is developing by leaps and bounds, for PA this gunship is a no brainer - quality build, well designed, tough, durable and nice looking. Add the Chinese cost benefit and the Q is why would the PA buy anything else? Yes the only Qs would be engine reliability and power, and avionics. The WZ-10 will not have the electronics in the Longbow but I am sure it is not too far either, hence the weapon is a must buy and due to the cost benefit and the C-P friendship rates, the PA can buy these in bulk - around 4 squadrons 72+ machines would do wonders for the offensive doctrine of the PAA. Now if only we can get the PA to wake up and modernise.

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## xuxu1457

[YOUKU]XNjA3MDQ2NDcy[/YOUKU]

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## sweetgrape



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## mughaljee

Will some one shed some light T-129 (Turkey) VS WZ10A ?


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## Beast

mughaljee said:


> Will some one shed some light T-129 (Turkey) VS WZ10A ?



As you mention light.. Meaning a 4.6tons attack helo vs a 7 tons attack helo. In term of protection offer and payload, WZ-10A will be far better than T-129.

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## yasin_csoy

Beast said:


> As you mention light.. Meaning a 4.6tons attack helo vs a 7 tons attack helo. In term of protection offer and payload, WZ-10A will be far better than T-129.



first of all , t-129 is a 5 ton helicopter, yes it is light helicopter but this also means it can accelerate rapidly, and has more rate of climb. wz 10 has 1500 kg payload on the other hand 
t-129 has more than 1200 kg payload capacity which is enough to carry any weapon that attack helicopter needs. and t-129 is more manuverable due to its more powerful engines and being light. It uses all modern technology of today and near future. you can also check the atak 129 videos if you want you will understand what I mean

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## Beast

yasin_csoy said:


> first of all , t-129 is a 5 ton helicopter, yes it is light helicopter but this also means it can accelerate rapidly, and has more rate of climb. wz 10 has 1500 kg payload on the other hand
> t-129 has more than 1200 kg payload capacity which is enough to carry any weapon that attack helicopter needs. and t-129 is more manuverable due to its more powerful engines and being light. It uses all modern technology of today and near future. you can also check the atak 129 videos if you want you will understand what I mean



Not neccessary truth. WZ-10 uses a 1350sph shaft which is more powerful than T-129. Heavy does by mean less agility. You need to look at the design and engine uses. flight performance of WZ-10 proves its very manuverable. WZ-10 included a very advance point and shoot HMS which only euro Tiger is comparable.


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## graphican

Beast said:


> Not neccessary truth. WZ-10 uses a 1350sph shaft which is more powerful than T-129. Heavy does by mean less agility. You need to look at the design and engine uses. flight performance of WZ-10 proves its very manuverable. WZ-10 included a very advance point and shoot HMS which only euro Tiger is comparable.



One of the Chinese fellows had mentioned that WZ-10 doesn't have an export version yet. China is also procuring WZ-10s to meet its requirements at this stage. We are not sure but there is a high possibility that development and export time-frame would have played a role in decision making.

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## Luftwaffe

graphican said:


> One of the Chinese fellows had mentioned that WZ-10 doesn't have an export version yet. China is also procuring WZ-10s to meet its requirements at this stage. We are not sure but there is a high possibility that development and export time-frame would have played a role in decision making.



Pakistan at this moment doesn't need another platform all we need to do is upgrade our Cobras and get extra from US through EDA that is sufficient for the next 7 years. Nawaz is all butter about T-129 we really don't need it at this point like I explained there is no EDA from Turkey and the price tag for a single T-129 is 225 crore appx rupees that is without spares/life time support costs would want to spend that much when your country needs it for health/education/security/emergency food supplies/disaster.

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## graphican

Luftwaffe said:


> Pakistan at this moment doesn't need another platform all we need to do is upgrade our Cobras and get extra from US through EDA that is sufficient for the next 7 years. Nawaz is all butter about T-129 we really don't need it at this point like I explained there is no EDA from Turkey and the price tag for a single T-129 is 225 crore appx rupees that is without spares/life time support costs would want to spend that much when your country needs it for health/education/security/emergency food supplies/disaster.



Keeping the discussion of our requirements aside, era of reliance on USA is over. It was never a dependable supplier for us but now in China, India and Pakistan equation, it is even more undependable.


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## 帅的一匹

WZ10 has much more room for updation than T129.

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## Nishan_101

WZ-10 is a new design as well unlike T-129 which is being improved by Turkey....

PAA will go for WZ-10


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## Oldman1

Nishan_101 said:


> WZ-10 is a new design as well unlike T-129 which is being improved by Turkey....
> 
> PAA will go for WZ-10



Being new does not mean more advanced.

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## Beast

Oldman1 said:


> Being new does not mean more advanced.



The shaping of WZ-10 is definitely more stealthy. The shape has some consideration for reduced RCS while A-129 Agusta design belongs to 80s.

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## Nishan_101

Z-10s are among the best helicopters and Chinese haven't offered to anyone.... But surely Pakistan can easily acquire it.

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## hk299792458

Z-10 on CCTV






Chief engineer of Z-10 in an interview






57 years of China's helicopter industry






Henri K.


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## Luftwaffe

graphican said:


> Keeping the discussion of our requirements aside, era of reliance on USA is over. It was never a dependable supplier for us but now in China, India and Pakistan equation, it is even more undependable.



I have no disagreement but the current realistic scenario is that all AH-1 inventory needs upgrades/spares you can't neglect them, at the same time the No 1 contender so far is AH-1Z if by 2015/2016 Pakistan gets no AH-1Z then we can comfortably switch to Z-10A because it is already in works with better realiable Engine on its way and more payload. There will always be IF because Pakistan AF/Army is not ready to ditch US superior equipment.


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## cirr

Another PLA Army Aviation Regiment&#65292;this time based in Fujian Province&#65292;sees induction of Z-10s&#65306;







Training pics taken on 10.10.2013.

?????????????????????


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## cirr

Another PLA Army Aviation Regiment&#65292;this time based in Fujian Province&#65292;sees induction of Z-10s&#65306;






Training pics taken on 10.10.2013.

?????????????????????


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## sweetgrape



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## TaimiKhan

whats the armor protection specs for WZ-10 ?? I mean protection levels at different places.


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## Beast

TaimiKhan said:


> whats the armor protection specs for WZ-10 ?? I mean protection levels at different places.



No spec ever announce but shall be comparable to Euro Tiger. Bottom fuselage of Euro Tiger can withstand 23mm cannon.


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## cirr

Z-10‘s engine is 100% indigenous and named YuLong（JadeDragon）。


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## applesauce

Beast said:


> No spec ever announce but shall be comparable to Euro Tiger. Bottom fuselage of Euro Tiger can withstand 23mm cannon.



i only recalled the blades themselves being able to take 12.7mm and canopy is at least able to take .50 cal


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## Han dominance

cirr said:


> Z-10‘s engine is 100% indigenous and named YuLong（JadeDragon）。



What is the power of the engine?


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## Luftwaffe

T-129 seems to be a political decision by a political party namely pml-n in self-interests and future businesses, I don't know why PA would not even try out Z-10/Z-19 [modified with gun].


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## DANGER-ZONE

Luftwaffe said:


> T-129 seems to be a political decision by a political party namely pml-n in self-interests and future businesses, I don't know why PA would not even try out Z-10/Z-19 [modified with gun].



Man if i tell you the inside story, they are still happy with AH-1F / S  and i am not kidding here.


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## Oldman1

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Man if i tell you the inside story, they are still happy with AH-1F / S  and i am not kidding here.



Isn't Pakistan going to get the Viper?


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## Luftwaffe

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Man if i tell you the inside story, they are still happy with AH-1F / S  and i am not kidding here.


 
We know T-129 is a $35m helicopter not including any spares and life time support atleast $12m more expensive then JF-17 it clearly is a political decision and deal in making both on part of pml-n and Army, would fairly invest in more AH-1[Z] to say despite bad US relations rather than with Turkey's T-129 it might not come with strings attached but according to Pak geography and economy we can strike that deal post 2020 are we in hurry? We can't even take care of P3Cs and other AEW&C and we than blame US for everything.

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## xhw1986

Emergency Takeoff

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## cirr

Z-19‘s annual production rate exceeds 40：

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## Peaceful Civilian

Production rate 40+ per year. This is impressive. Nice progress


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## Dazzler

WZ-10 is not promoted to export market yet, Z-19 is made for exports.


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## CrazyPaki

Dazzler said:


> WZ-10 is not promoted to export market yet, Z-19 is made for exports.


what is different between the 2?


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## Sasquatch

CrazyPaki said:


> what is different between the 2?



Z-19 is more of a scout reconnaissance helicopter, but can be used for lighter attacks, carry A2A and A2G missiles. Z-10 is an attack helicopter like the T-129.

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## Beast

Hu Songshan said:


> Z-19 is more of a scout reconnaissance helicopter, but can be used for lighter attacks, carry A2A and A2G missiles. Z-10 is an attack helicopter like the T-129.


wZ-10 is also more heavily armor and able to take a beating unlike wz-19.

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## Sasquatch

Beast said:


> wZ-10 is also more heavily armor and able to take a beating unlike wz-19.



That's pretty obvious the Z-19 is a scout helicopter, still compared to the Apache WZ-10 isn't on par. A heavier attack WZ-10 will come when the WZ16 is ready this year.

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## Khan_patriot

looks like a beast....


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## Beast

Hu Songshan said:


> That's pretty obvious the Z-19 is a scout helicopter, still compared to the Apache WZ-10 isn't on par. A heavier attack WZ-10 will come when the WZ16 is ready this year.



I will not neccessary says China still wants a heavy attack helo. Even the Euro has no plan to develop a further class of heavy attack helo. They are currently happy with their Euro Tiger which is the same class as WZ-10. But I do agree WZ-16 turboshaft is greatly improve the performance of WZ-10.


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## Genesis

Beast said:


> I will not neccessary says China still wants a heavy attack helo. Even the Euro has no plan to develop a further class of heavy attack helo. They are currently happy with their Euro Tiger which is the same class as WZ-10. But I do agree WZ-16 turboshaft is greatly improve the performance of WZ-10.



I'll say I have not seen a picture where the helo has a full load of weapons, at present, all we can know for sure is that it won't fall out of the sky and is pretty maneuverable.


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## 帅的一匹

It might take another 5 years to cure China's heart attack, but we already head the right direction for rehabilitation.



Beast said:


> I will not neccessary says China still wants a heavy attack helo. Even the Euro has no plan to develop a further class of heavy attack helo. They are currently happy with their Euro Tiger which is the same class as WZ-10. But I do agree WZ-16 turboshaft is greatly improve the performance of WZ-10.


China is going to be a super power, Europe is not.


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## Luftwaffe

Hu Songshan said:


> Z-19 is more of a scout reconnaissance helicopter, but can be used for lighter attacks, carry A2A and A2G missiles. Z-10 is an attack helicopter like the T-129.


 
Any informatiion on Z-19s armor.


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## Beast

Luftwaffe said:


> Any informatiion on Z-19s armor.



No information reveal but I believe it can only withstand standard assault rifle like Ak-47 or M-16. Anything more will be dangerous.


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## nomi007




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## Genesis

New pictures coming out, this may indicate new engines are available, since the replacement of engine by domestic engines and the power went down, this copter has been more or less for show with no real attack capabilities, but these new pictures suggest more weight can now be attached to copters. Orignally went down 1300 to 1000, now it could be back to 1300.

Especially image 3. 

WZ-10A

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## Khaqan Humayun

Lankan Ranger said:


> *WZ-10 Attack Helicopter already in Service *
> 
> *There are at lease 8 of them already in service by PLA 5th LH Regiment
> *

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## Khaqan Humayun

*CH64 China *






tkunk8 said:


> I'm very very sorry

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## xhw1986



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## xhw1986



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## nomi007




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## cirr

Z-19 seen carrying 8 anti-tank missiles：

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## Beast

I know large number of people question why Z-19 has no fixed gun. But think about it, if necessary. Gun pod could be attached on one of the wing point. They can have a configuration of 8 ATGM, one rocket pod and 23mm cannon.

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## Pangu

Any news on the WZ-10 changing to the more powerful WZ16 engine (涡轴16)?

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## cirr

China has started the development of next generation attack helicopter：

直10直19总师吴希明：下一个型号将会更满意|1986年|航电系统_凤凰军事

A lengthy article about Wu Ximing，the chief designer of Z-10 and Z-19。

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## Sasquatch

xudeen said:


> Any news on the WZ-10 changing to the more powerful WZ16 engine (涡轴16)?



Heavier WZ-10 is coming the WZ-16 is already in production this year from a couple sources.

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## scherz

cirr said:


> China has started the development of next generation attack helicopter：
> 
> 直10直19总师吴希明：下一个型号将会更满意|1986年|航电系统_凤凰军事
> 
> A lengthy article about Wu Ximing，the chief designer of Z-10 and Z-19。


Next step must be a stealth heli maybe?


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## BigDaddyWatch

Hu Songshan said:


> Heavier WZ-10 is coming the WZ-16 is already in production this year from a couple sources.


Do you have a source that the WZ-16 turboshaft engines are in production ?


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## Sasquatch

BigDaddyWatch said:


> Do you have a source that the WZ-16 turboshaft engines are in production ?

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## Khaqan Humayun

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *CH64 China *





Khaqan Humayun said:


>


*I saw some pic on google that China is making AH-64............after that I got this photo *


----------



## Luftwaffe

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *I saw some pic on google that China is making AH-64............after that I got this photo *



Fan Art, They have Z-10 which is being improved in Batches.


----------



## Talha Mateen

How much for Z-10? and can BDs and Sri Lanka able to get it? Also will China allow any Middle East or other Muslim country to join in the project to produce it in their own country like KSA, UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and etc


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## cirr

Talha Mateen said:


> How much for Z-10? and can BDs and Sri Lanka able to get it? Also will China allow any Middle East or other Muslim country to join in the project to produce it in their own country like KSA, UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and etc



Why not？ All the above are brotherly countries。

And China has started on its next generation high-speed stealth attack chopper anyway。


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## terranMarine

cirr said:


> Why not？ All the above are brotherly countries。
> 
> And China has started on its next generation high-speed stealth attack chopper anyway。


 already?


----------



## xhw1986

*China declassifies existence of WZ-10 attack helicopter’s pod radar*

China has officially declassified the existence of a pod-mounted targeting radar for the WZ-10 attack helicopter.






According to the article, the radar was tested against a surface ship during an exercise by the Guangdong military region last month. The information was shared to all three helicopters using data-link.

武直-10：超视距攻击是一大特点 - 中国军网

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## cirr

terranMarine said:


> already?



Who knows，we may get an inkling of the “thing” in a few months？

Your guess is as good as mine。


----------



## terranMarine

cirr said:


> Who knows，we may get an inkling of the “thing” in a few months？
> 
> Your guess is as good as mine。



Chinese Commanche


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## Khaqan Humayun




----------



## kuge

Chinese Civil Helo’s Turboshaft Engine Makes First Run | Aviation International News

* Chinese Civil Helo’s Turboshaft Engine Makes First Run *
AINalerts » December 5, 2013
by Thierry Dubois


December 5, 2013, 3:30 PM
Helicopter engine manufacturer Turbomeca announced that the Ardiden 3C/WZ16, which was jointly developed with China’s Avic Engine, made its first run at the French firm’s test facility in Bordes in southwest France. The successful ground test confirmed the turboshaft engine’s aeromechanical behavior and performance, according to Turbomeca.

Some components of the new Ardiden derivative, the development of which is being conducted on a 50-50 basis, had gone through preliminary testing. Certification by the Civil Aviation Administration of China is expected in September 2015. The Ardiden 3C, understood to have a power close to 1,800 shp, features a modular design and a dual-channel Fadec.

The engine is expected to power the Avicopter AC352 medium-twin helicopter, the Chinese counterpart of the Pratt & Whitney Canada-powered Eurocopter EC175. The two airframers have shared the program on a 50-50 basis, too, with Avicopter responsible for the fuselage, among other subassemblies. However, the certification efforts, customer support networks and marketing areas are distinct. Turbomeca would not confirm whether the Ardiden 3C will power the first AC352 prototype.

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## Beast

kuge said:


> Chinese Civil Helo’s Turboshaft Engine Makes First Run | Aviation International News
> 
> * Chinese Civil Helo’s Turboshaft Engine Makes First Run *
> AINalerts » December 5, 2013
> by Thierry Dubois
> 
> 
> December 5, 2013, 3:30 PM
> Helicopter engine manufacturer Turbomeca announced that the Ardiden 3C/WZ16, which was jointly developed with China’s Avic Engine, made its first run at the French firm’s test facility in Bordes in southwest France. The successful ground test confirmed the turboshaft engine’s aeromechanical behavior and performance, according to Turbomeca.
> 
> Some components of the new Ardiden derivative, the development of which is being conducted on a 50-50 basis, had gone through preliminary testing. Certification by the Civil Aviation Administration of China is expected in September 2015. The Ardiden 3C, understood to have a power close to 1,800 shp, features a modular design and a dual-channel Fadec.
> 
> The engine is expected to power the Avicopter AC352 medium-twin helicopter, the Chinese counterpart of the Pratt & Whitney Canada-powered Eurocopter EC175. The two airframers have shared the program on a 50-50 basis, too, with Avicopter responsible for the fuselage, among other subassemblies. However, the certification efforts, customer support networks and marketing areas are distinct. Turbomeca would not confirm whether the Ardiden 3C will power the first AC352 prototype.



It shall have completed the test by now since this new was in dec 2013.


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## cirr

More and more WZ-10s joining army aviation units：

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## Beast

cirr said:


> More and more WZ-10s joining army aviation units：


Now to think of it, many critics of WZ-10 claim lack of IR suppression. Same as Apache which lack IR suppression too. Tiger help is equipped with IR suppression for its exhaust. But recent war of Syria demonstrated IR suppression are virtually useless against modern manpad like FN-6, newest stinger and Russian igla. The Iraq mi-35 gunship equipped with IR suppression failed to deal with FN-6 missile.

PLA is smart to discard IR supression to save more pounds for helo power. The most important thing is using better chaff/flares to shake off modern digital infra red missile seeker.

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## Beast

Marketing#1234 said:


> Why not China make a strategic move and sell Z-10s on cost to cost basis to Sri Lanka, BD and Pakistan.


It is still not approved for export yet.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> It is still not approved for export yet.


when WZ10 will be permited for export?


----------



## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> when WZ10 will be permited for export?



Not sure yet. But the chief designer did mention it is not allowed to export yet.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Not sure yet. But the chief designer did mention it is not allowed to export yet.


said we have a stealthy attack-hei in development, is that true?


----------



## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> said we have a stealthy attack-hei in development, is that true?


Never, they just say stealth coating on the helo could be used but never mention whether its apply on WZ-10.


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## zaid butt

Beast said:


> Never, they just say stealth coating on the helo could be used but never mention whether its apply on WZ-10.


wz-10 with stealth coating best thing 
just ready for export and we will get it


----------



## 帅的一匹

zaid butt said:


> wz-10 with stealth coating best thing
> just ready for export and we will get it


Sure. Pakistan will always be the first-user of top notch weapon. I doubt wheter PAF pilotes had flied WZ10, any news from domestic brother ?


----------



## zaid butt

wanglaokan said:


> Sure. Pakistan will always be the first-user of top notch weapon. I doubt wheter PAF pilotes had flied WZ10, any news from domestic brother ?


no as much i know because it is not ready for export


----------



## Kamil_baku

Beast said:


> Now to think of it, many critics of WZ-10 claim lack of IR suppression. Same as Apache which lack IR suppression too. Tiger help is equipped with IR suppression for its exhaust. But recent war of Syria demonstrated IR suppression are virtually useless against modern manpad like FN-6, newest stinger and Russian igla. The Iraq mi-35 gunship equipped with IR suppression failed to deal with FN-6 missile.
> 
> PLA is smart to discard IR supression to save more pounds for helo power. The most important thing is using better chaff/flares to shake off modern digital infra red missile seeker.


Its just an excuse.. You need a IR suppression, but as you dont produce your own, new generation engine, it would be hard.. Thats the game changing part of army technology.. How about not to be a target to Thermal cameras and obviously against new generation low attitude air defence systems.. ?


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## Beast

Kamil_baku said:


> Its just an excuse.. You need a IR suppression, but as you dont produce your own, new generation engine, it would be hard.. Thats the game changing part of army technology.. How about not to be a target to Thermal cameras and obviously against new generation low attitude air defence systems.. ?


 IR suppression is not such magic solution. With manpad seeker more and more advanced. There's so little IR suppression will do. The best way to counter manpad is still thru chaff and correct evasive action.


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## airmarshal

Chinese helicopter looks like a toy.


----------



## Beast

airmarshal said:


> Chinese helicopter looks like a toy.


Disagree, looks very modern and menacing with some stealth shaping and the dark Matt coat.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Disagree, looks very modern and menacing with some stealth shaping and the dark Matt coat.


He is a troll, you can igonore him.


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## Kompromat

WZ-10 Thunderbolt is improving well. When is the new turboshaft engine due and how much output its going to generate?
Someone posted this graphic some time ago, is China developing a larger/upgraded model?


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## black-hawk_101

Why not they offer Z-10 to BD who is looking for some like PAA.


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## 帅的一匹

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not they offer Z-10 to BD who is looking for some like PAA.


WZ10 is not clear for export yet. If it is so, the first customer will be PA.

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## black-hawk_101

I am sure PAA is seeking it closely.


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## 帅的一匹

black-hawk_101 said:


> I am sure PAA is seeking it closely.


we will not sell it to a country who support Uyghers independence.



black-hawk_101 said:


> I am sure PAA is seeking it closely.


I sometimes wonder whether you are Pakistani or some falseflagger?



black-hawk_101 said:


> I am sure PAA is seeking it closely.


You are asking PA to follow Chinese weapon. On the other hand, you support Uyghers independence. what's your problem?you think Chinese is idiot?

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> we will not sell it to a country who support Uyghers independence.
> 
> 
> I sometimes wonder whether you are Pakistani or some falseflagger?
> 
> 
> You are asking PA to follow Chinese weapon. On the other hand, you support Uyghers independence. what's your problem?you think Chinese is idiot?



Chill, my friend. Many of these fake pakistanis who maybe American in disguised are trying to ruin Sino-pakistan friendship. Do not fall into their tricks.

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## DANGER-ZONE

wanglaokan said:


> we will not sell it to a country who support Uyghers independence.
> 
> 
> I sometimes wonder whether you are Pakistani or some falseflagger?
> 
> 
> You are asking PA to follow Chinese weapon. On the other hand, you support Uyghers independence. what's your problem?you think Chinese is idiot?



Calm down bro ... He's the great brainless *Nishan-101.*

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## 55100864

I found this video so freaking hilarious, some guys playing war-game,then an WZ-10 turned up.

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## Deino

Hmmm ... even if I can't read Urdu (hope that's correct !?) it seems as if China will provide three Z-10 attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2015 for anti-terror operations.
Since the US has continued to refuse the sale of additional AH-1 attack helos and / or even Apaches this migt be indeed a fine option to evaluate this type in rough mountains and during real missions, that may allow a later acquisition by Pakistan in larger numbers ....

However I'm a bit skeptical ... what's the source of this or these images ?
Deino


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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> Hmmm ... even if I can't read Urdu (hope that's correct !?) it seems as if China will provide three Z-10 attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2015 for anti-terror operations.
> Since the US has continued to refuse the sale of additional AH-1 attack helos and / or even Apaches this migt be indeed a fine option to evaluate this type in rough mountains and during real missions, that may allow a later acquisition by Pakistan in larger numbers ....
> 
> However I'm a bit skeptical ... what's the source of this or these images ?
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 180568
> 
> 
> View attachment 180569



Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang

By the way, could someone translate the text in these pics ?

Thanks,

Henri K.


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## aliaselin

No. 107

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## princefaisal

When will these 03 gifted helicopters arrive in Pakistan?

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## Martian2

*WZ-10 labeled in English*






A. MISSILE APPROCHING WARNING SYSTEM
B. LASER WARNING RECEIVER
C. CHAFF DISPENSER
D. RADAR interference SYSTEM
E. IDENTIFICATION SYSTEM
F. WIRE CUTTER
G. high frequency aerial
H. landing light



> But the big question is what is the White thing on the bottom which is shown on the picture in Chinese?



Considering its shape and location, I would say doppler altitude radar antenna, but could be wrong.

[Note: Thank you to WereWolf for the post.]

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## Deino

> But the big question is what is the White thing on the bottom which is shown on the picture in Chinese?



That is a WL-9 radio compass ... exactly the same antenna dish as used behind the canopy on the J-10-series and L-15 trainers.

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## cirr



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## cirr

A new batch of Z-10s with a *new more powerful engine*：

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## Zarvan

cirr said:


> A new batch of Z-10s with a *new more powerful engine*：


Is this engine produced in China ?

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## cirr

The new Z-10 has heavier armour for sure。

I will leave you guys to figure out the differences in appearance between the above-posted and 










Zarvan said:


> Is this engine produced in China ?



The answer is a resounding YES。

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## Zarvan

cirr said:


> The new Z-10 has heavier armour for sure。
> 
> I will leave you guys to figure out the differences in appearance between the above-posted and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is a resounding YES。


The difficulties we are facing in getting attack helicopters it seem eventually we would go for Z-10

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## cirr

Zarvan said:


> The difficulties we are facing in getting attack helicopters it seem eventually we would go for Z-10



China is reportedly developing a hybrid of the Apache and the Mi-28。

Who knows，only time will tell。

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> Is this engine produced in China ?


Definitely, Pratt and Whitney is banned by US to export turboshaft for military purpose to China. Ukraine is in turmoil. No way can export any engine. 100% made in China WZ-16 turboshaft upgraded from WZ-9 turboshaft.

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## Zarvan

cirr said:


> China is reportedly developing a hybrid of the Apache and the Mi-28。
> 
> Who knows，only time will tell。


You mean another helicopter other than Z-10 is under development ?

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## GeHAC

Zarvan said:


> Is this engine produced in China ?


yes but not powerful at all


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## Zarvan

GeHAC said:


> yes but not powerful at all


Why is it not powerful ?

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## cnleio

Zarvan said:


> Why is it not powerful ?


Powerful ...  16x ATMs






Less powerful ...  8x ATMs

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## Zarvan

cnleio said:


> Powerful ...  16x ATMs
> View attachment 199641
> 
> 
> 
> Less powerful ...  8x ATMs
> View attachment 199642
> 
> View attachment 199643


Okay and according to some members you are also building something like Apache ????????

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## Beast

GeHAC said:


> yes but not powerful at all


Wrong, the one posted by cirr is the new WZ-10 receiving the new more powerful WZ-16 turboshaft, not the old WZ-9 turboshaft. It shall be capable of lifting 16 ATGM.

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## Zarvan

cnleio said:


> Powerful ...  16x ATMs
> View attachment 199641
> 
> 
> 
> Less powerful ...  8x ATMs
> View attachment 199642
> 
> View attachment 199643


But if we have 60 of these even that will do great job for us because our Cobra even don't have these

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## cnleio

A new batch of WZ-10A armed helicotper delivery to PLA (updated engine & optical device)

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## terranMarine

cnleio said:


> A new batch of WZ-10A armed helicotper delivery to PLA (updated engine & optical device)


how many Z-10s do we have now?


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## Martian2

terranMarine said:


> how many Z-10s do we have now?


I made the following post on 4-18-2013. Someone just needs to search and add new information from the last two years.
----------
*China has 60 WZ-10 attack helicopters in service*

A while ago, someone asked me how many Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopters were in service. I remember saying 48. I want to revise my reply and say 60.

One squadron has 12 WZ-10s. Therefore, five squadrons imply 60 WZ-10s in service (see citation below).

Location (one squadron per regiment; MR=military region):

1st LH Regiment, 54th Group Army, Jinan MR
9th LH Regiment, 39th Group Army, Shenyang MR
6th LH Regiment, 42nd Group Army, Guangzhou MR (near Zhuhai)
8th LH Regiment, 38th Group Army, Beijing MR
5th LH Regiment, 1st Group Army, Nanjing MR





Blue arrow indicates location of Chinese Light Helicopter regiment equipped with a squadron of WZ-10 attack helicopters.

----------

China Defense Blog

Z-10 of the 1st LH Brigade, 54th Group Army, Jinan MR
Saturday, March 16, 2013
*
Fast forward three and half months, a new Z-10 squadron emerges. This marks the fifth Z-10 squadrons in army aviation service.* It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to see all 10 of PLA's LH brigades will be equipped with at least one Z-10 squadron soon.











----------

9th PLA LH Brigade, 39th Group Army, Shanyang MR, the fourth confirmed Z-10 operator
Wednesday, December 26, 2012

The fourth Z-10 equipped PLA LH Brigade is confirmed by today's (12/26/2012) report. In a rather short period, the PLA now boast 48 known Z-10s in 4 attack squadrons of 12 birds each in four different LH brigades.
















Here are some clear photos of the Z-10 attack squadron, 6th LH Brigade, 42nd Group Army, Guangzhou MR.

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## cnleio

terranMarine said:


> how many Z-10s do we have now?


@Martian2 provide 2013 data China has 60x WZ-10 ... 2014 maybe 100+ WZ-10,coz each 3.5 months can add a new WZ-10 squadron (12x) in army aviation service, China still building more WZ-10 armed helicopters.

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## Zarvan

cnleio said:


> @Martian2 provide 2013 data China has 60x WZ-10 ... 2014 maybe 100+ WZ-10,coz each 3.5 months can add a new WZ-10 squadron (12x) in army aviation service, China still building more WZ-10 armed helicopters.


Is there any project by the name of Z-16 too

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## Martian2

Zarvan said:


> Is there any project by the name of Z-16 too


The following is my post from 4-6-2012.
----------
*China's new WZ-16 1,500 kW or 1,700 shp (shaft horsepower) turboshaft engine is under development*






New WZ-16 engine can be installed on the WZ-10 in the future.





WZ-16 engine specifications include 1,700 shp (shaft horsepower). I think the sign says it'll be ready by 2013.

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the pictures.]

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## cnleio



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## JSCh



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## ih8viet

JSCh said:


>




Beautiful. Can't wait to see them in action.

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## cnleio



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## Beast

cnleio said:


> View attachment 209738


I think PA pilot will receive the same helmet like this. The pilot say this helmet weighs a ton but is the heart of all fire control for the gunship.

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## Kompromat

Isn't China developing a new EOTS turret for Z-10?

How many units PLA has on order?

PAA has received 3 to test in the battlefield, based on its performance an order might be placed for WZ-10s built in Pakistan.


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## Beast

Horus said:


> Isn't China developing a new EOTS turret for Z-10?
> 
> How many units PLA has on order?
> 
> PAA has received 3 to test in the battlefield, based on its performance an order might be placed for WZ-10s built in Pakistan.


Shall have almost a hundred in service. Target is all regiment shall have supported by a WZ-10 gunship so we need estimate another 100 more.
Not sure about the new EOTS. So far no news but the one with new EOTS comes with a new up power engine by at least 20%

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## Kompromat

Beast said:


> Shall have almost a hundred in service. Target is all regiment shall have supported by a WZ-10 gunship so we need estimate another 100 more.
> Not sure about the new EOTS. So far no news but the one with new EOTS comes with a new up power engine by at least 20%



When is the new engine due?


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## black-hawk_101

What is the difference between Z-10 and Z-10As.


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## qwerrty

black-hawk_101 said:


> What is the difference between Z-10 and Z-10As.



z10A?




z10

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## Deino

black-hawk_101 said:


> What is the difference between Z-10 and Z-10As.



These are no A Models Even if some think they are modified aircraft of an upgraded Version. In fact they are à few prototypes and preserials modified to be used operationally but otherwise they feature all the Old Design Elements like this Ball-like optical sensor - only on the prototypes - a different tail configuration and also the Cockpit windows are different too. All recent serials however are of the regular standard.

deino


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## teddy

It was said to be Z-10H, it carry the original PNVS/TVDS installed on the prototypes but are powered by WZ-9 turboshafts. Also features additional equipment such as an IR jammer.


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## cnleio

Zarvan said:


> Is there any project by the name of Z-16 too


... i don't know.



China WZ-10 mass production, 40x new each year produced in Jing DeZhen (Jiang Xi province).















Whatever u called it WZ-10A or WZ-10H, new updated WZ-10 armed helicotpers produced out with powerful engine (domestic WZ-16) & heavy optical devices






compared with original WZ-10

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> ...
> Whatever u called it WZ-10A or WZ-10H, new updated WZ-10 armed helicotpers produced out with powerful engine (domestic WZ-16) & heavy optical devices
> View attachment 212444
> 
> 
> compared with original WZ-10
> View attachment 212541


 
Sorry, but these are not updated helicopters, but simply refurbished prototypes & preserials and even more the WZ-16 is not operational yet. That's sad, but simply a fan-boy's dream.

Just look at the airframe development .... and therefore I posted this idea at the CDF already a few weeks ago:



> Just a question again due to an observation:
> All these new Z-10H called aircraft are a bit different to the known serial aircraft: they have again the AH-64-like lower sensor + the bigger upper one, they all have the earlier prototype-style tail + rear gear and the old style canopy glass shaping. Some post are assuming that they have an uprated engine and are therefore featuring again the old airframe.
> Especially one aircraft numbered in red a few day ago brought me now to the idea that these are maybe more likely not new birds but older original-style pre-serial airframes or even prototypes delivered to an operational unit.
> IMO it simply does not make any sense to have the original configuration, that was too heavy due to a limited engine output ... then to redesign the fuselage in parts, the tail + gear as well as the canopy to save weight ... build several (and we speak of really many) of these weight-reduced serial standard airframes and now suddenly with reportedly a new engine all the weight reductions were left and the old heavy airframe is used again.
> IMO it would simply make much more sense to retain the already proven standard airframe and simply add the new engine !
> As such I'm now almost sure that they are in fact not a new build Z-10A, H or K version but simply a few refurbished prototypes and pre-serials modified to be assigned to an operational unit.
> 
> For comparison, the first two images are the said to be "new" configuration ... the third the standard serial one.
> Just my 2 Cents.


 











and Huitong replied ...



> Yes, those two batches appear to the pre-production models with original parts, thus their performance should be slightly worse. That photo should be an old one and that configuration should no longer be in production.


 

Deino

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> Sorry, but these are not updated helicopters, but simply refurbished prototypes & preserials and even more the WZ-16 is not operational yet. That's sad, but simply a fan-boy's dream.
> 
> Just look at the airframe development .... and therefore I posted this idea at the CDF already a few weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 212588
> View attachment 212589
> View attachment 212590
> 
> 
> and Huitong replied ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deino


I don't think so, bro.

If im right, this photo scaned from a 2015 Chinese military magazine ... and below Chinese traslation is " new batch of WZ-10 armed helicopters test qualified & ready for PLA Army"







This photo took in 2014, and two batch of WZ-10 helos at the same place --- Jing De Zhen helicopter manufacturing company but in different time.






My idea is since 2015 China WZ-10 armed helicopters updated ... future we need more new PLA photos to prove the WZ-10A or WZ-10H.

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## black-hawk_101

How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.

Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?


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## cnleio

black-hawk_101 said:


> How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.
> 
> Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?


Current 3x WZ-10 for test in Pakistan, further orders should considered by Pakistan Army.

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## black-hawk_101

We are hearing that China will be giving Free of Cost to PAA to fight terrorism better. Also, US is planning to ship some more or the remaining AH-1 Cobras Upgraded along with some spares too.

PAA is interested in getting some more Cobras to continue the efforts.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Sorry, but these are not updated helicopters, but simply refurbished prototypes & preserials and even more the WZ-16 is not operational yet. That's sad, but simply a fan-boy's dream.
> 
> Just look at the airframe development .... and therefore I posted this idea at the CDF already a few weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 212588
> View attachment 212589
> View attachment 212590
> 
> 
> and Huitong replied ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deino


You are absolutely wrong. How do you know it does not have the new engine? You mean the wz16 turboshaft has a bigger dimension than WZ9 that cannot fit into older airframe? I don't think Chinese engineer are that dumb.

And clneio explain it very well that the magazine say new batch of WZ-10 join the fleet. Precisely the purpose of the PLA sponsor magazine which act as mouth piece of PLA is to brag about the new helo. Now you say it is actually a previous old dated configuration and even worst performance? It is just saying the PLA purposely humiliate itself? It is not logic.

The airframe is new and we do know WZ16 is ready by 2013 and production started 2014. 2015 is a good year for the new engine to be installed on WZ-10 gunship

Deino, as a moderator of Chinese military forum. You are too skeptical and see too little of China military advancement. If PLA is not confident of their WZ-10. I don't think they bother to gift 3 of them to PA to humiliate themselves with such underpowered and non sophisticated gunship.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Walkaround Of 5.54-tonne Zhi-10 (WZ-10) Thunderbolt Attack Helicopter Of Pakistan Army’s Aviation Corps*





The WZ-10 was originally designed by Russia’s Kamov OKB, and was subsequently developed by the PLA’s 602nd Research Institute, Changhe Aircraft Industries Group (CAIG) and China Helicopter Research and Development Institute (CHRDI).


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## Major Shaitan Singh



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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Guidance system: *semi-active laser
*Launching platform:* attack helicopters, UAVs
*Effective range:* 2,000 metres to 7,000 metres
*Diameter:* 170mm
*Length:* 1,775mm
*Weight:* 47kg
*Hit probability:* no less than 88% within effective range
*Warhead:* Tandem HEAT
*Penetration:* 1,400 mm/0°
*Stabilised EO sight
TV detection range: *10km
*TV identification range:* 8km
*Thermal imager detection range:* 6km
*Thermal imager identification range: *5km
*Ground laser illuminator*

*Maximum illuminating range:* 6km

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## Deino

Uppps … gents, please don’t get me wrong, but I think I need to explain my conclusion a bit more in detail:



cnleio said:


> I don't think so, bro.
> If im right, this photo scaned from a 2015 Chinese military magazine ... and below Chinese traslation is " new batch of WZ-10 armed helicopters test qualified & ready for PLA Army"
> …
> This photo took in 2014, and two batch of WZ-10 helos at the same place --- Jing De Zhen helicopter manufacturing company but in different time.
> …
> My idea is since 2015 China WZ-10 armed helicopters updated ... future we need more new PLA photos to prove the WZ-10A or WZ-10H.



Yes, but even if published only recently it does not state, that the image itself is a recent one or even more likely IMO it is indeed a recent image, since these pre-serials are only delivered recently to the PLA after being modified to be used operationally.


Beast said:


> You are absolutely wrong. How do you know it does not have the new engine? You mean the wz16 turboshaft has a bigger dimension than WZ9 that cannot fit into older airframe? I don't think Chinese engineer are that dumb.
> …



I don’t think that the WZ-16 would require a new airframe since IMO it is built from the beginning to fit that type … as such to assume a new engine is off even more I don’t think Chinese engineers are dumb, but the WZ-16 aka Adiden 3C is at least from all information I have is simply still not ready. This latest member of the Ardiden-family is not even listed on the Turbomeca-HP, a first ground run – NOTE: not a test on an actual helicopter – was only done in November 2013 and You really believe reports that serial production started then already in China in 2014 ??? Simply NEVER.
http://www.turbomeca.com/english/our-products/helicopter-engines/ardiden-47/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/turbomeca-completes-first-ground-run-of-ardiden-3c-393619/




> And clneio explain it very well that the magazine say new batch of WZ-10 join the fleet. Precisely the purpose of the PLA sponsor magazine which act as mouth piece of PLA is to brag about the new helo. Now you say it is actually a previous old dated configuration and even worst performance? It is just saying the PLA purposely humiliate itself? It is not logic.
> The airframe is new and we do know WZ16 is ready by 2013 and production started 2014. 2015 is a good year for the new engine to be installed on WZ-10 gunship
> …



Yes, this could simply be since they only entered service now after being modified but they were built actually long before. As such I’m sure the current Z-10 – and please do not use this wrong WZ-designation, it’s plain wrong !! – uses an uprated version of the WZ-9, what type, version or modification I don’t know since I know, the Chinese are not stupid and from all films we know the Z-10 does not look that underpowered as some want to make it.

My point is that it is simply not logical to develop an airframe, identify certain issues, initiate a weight reduction program, build an improved serial version in high numbers and then completely reverse everything … and even more it is even less logical to deduct that a new engine must be installed only due to the old configuration. Wouldn’t it be much wiser to retain the already improven airframe and simply add the new engine ?? The old heavy tail-gear and windows are truly not related to an engine change. So why again the old configuration if these birds are not simply old ones ?

IMO it is the simplest explanation that these birds were modified for operational use, maybe only for training purpose, to let the pilots fly without a heavy load, maybe only as instruction trainers for ground crews … I don’t know, but simply to assume a new engine due to a step-back to the old fuselage/airframe is IMO a bit far-fetched. Therefore it is not a humiliation for the PLA, it is an economical decision to use them for a certain role … what role however is not stated and I don’t know.




> Deino, as a moderator of Chinese military forum. You are too skeptical and see too little of China military advancement. If PLA is not confident of their WZ-10. I don't think they bother to gift 3 of them to PA to humiliate themselves with such underpowered and non sophisticated gunship.



Yes and NO ! First, a moderator does not has to be more or less confident, more or less skeptical than other’s … he has to be honest, fair and rational.

And regarding this issue, I did a lot of research on that type – by the way the AFM-report posted above is plain stupid since it contains too many errors ! – I think we should not see it black and white only.

IMO the Z-10 is a perfectly capable combat helicopter to be proud of, it is not underpowered per se or a humiliation for the Pakistani friends, but it seems as if it still lacks certain power to exploit its full potential. For example we have never seen 16 KD-10 ATGM on it but always only 8, that could be a possibility due to lacking images with 16, a certain PLA-doctrine, that only employs 8 but also a hint for a lack in engine-power, I don’t know – however it seems indeed as if the PLA is quite lucky with that type

Therefore I’m truly sure that all so far delivered Z-10s use an improved WZ-9, they are perfectly capable to do their job but an uprated version is projected (maybe for the Marines) that will use the WZ-16. However there are IMO too many arguments that simply exclude the WZ-16 right now and even more that these few birds are already this version. Even more since Huitong confirmed and agreed to my arguments.

To be sure however we have to see what the next unit’s birds will look like …
All the best,
Deino

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## Deino

Supporting my theory, here's an image of prototype 006 and this one already had the revised fuselage of the serial aircrafts.





... also interesting, it features some sort of new gun (some say of 25mm caliber) or IMO at least a new modification to the gun blast deflector ...

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## Sanchez

black-hawk_101 said:


> How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.
> 
> Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?



No many， I am afraid. The annual production of Z-10 is close to or below 40 at present. These toys are desperately wanted by PLA army, navy as well as air forces.


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## Deino

Sanchez said:


> No many， I am afraid. The annual production of Z-10 is close to or below 40 at present. These toys are desperately wanted by PLA army, navy as well as air forces.




To admit, that's actually an interesting point and leds to another question: why is this production rate only so low, or is it simply low in our opinion and quite fine to the PLA's requirements or is it indeed low even by the PLA's will ... but only so low due to technical, financial or whatever reason ???

The same applies to the J-10 production rate and the question: Could it be bigger if potential customer appear or would then the PLA get fewer ??

Deino


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## gambit

Major Shaitan Singh said:


>


I am going to tell you guys this based on experience...

Pilots, fixed or rotary wings, *DO NOT* like to wear helmets outside of their aircrafts unless it is absolutely necessary, like your base is under artillery bombardment. A pilot may don his helmet right at his aircraft, but it is considered dorky and uncool to be any distance from your machine wearing your helmet.

The helmet is not that heavy, but no one want to wear it for any longer than necessary. If you just came back from a sortie that involved a lot of maneuvering, your neck will be wearied from the weight multiplied several times under g forces and the helmet will be the first thing that you remove, even before you are out of the cockpit. The US is sometimes, though very rare, guilty of these propaganda pics, but I do see these often enough in other militaries. By the time you are out of your machine, your crew chief already have your helmet inside your bag and if you are wearing a g-suit, it is loosened a little bit to facilitate walking.

If you want to make an impression for family and your woman, holding your helmet is actually better than wearing it, especially with the chin strap fastened.

Finally...In the above pic, the helo model would *NOT* be allowed on the flightline -- Foreign Object Damage (FOD).


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## Kamil_baku

Deino said:


> To admit, that's actually an interesting point and leds to another question: why is this production rate only so low, or is it simply low in our opinion and quite fine to the PLA's requirements or is it indeed low even by the PLA's will ... but only so low due to technical, financial or whatever reason ???
> 
> The same applies to the J-10 production rate and the question: Could it be bigger if potential customer appear or would then the PLA get fewer ??
> 
> Deino


it might be because of not many professionals to mass produce the engine.. or any related subsystems..


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## lukaer007




----------



## cirr

New engine，new rocket pod：







19 rockets counted。

直十武装直升机配备新19管火箭巢 与阿帕奇相当_军事频道_凤凰网

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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> New engine，new rocket pod：
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 19 rockets counted。
> 
> 直十武装直升机配备新19管火箭巢 与阿帕奇相当_军事频道_凤凰网



WS-16?


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## cirr

Horus said:


> WS-16?



Let me put it this way：

China now has the engines to build a heavy attack helicopter such as the Apache。

”Will China build it“ is a different question。

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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> Let me put it this way：
> 
> China now has the engines to build a heavy attack helicopter such as the Apache。
> 
> ”Will China build it“ is a different question。



So, that's why you need us to test it out in battle 

I've seen drawings of WZ-12, related?

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## Deino

cirr said:


> New engine，new rocket pod：
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 19 rockets counted。
> 
> 直十武装直升机配备新19管火箭巢 与阿帕奇相当_军事频道_凤凰网



No ... why on earth do all think that with each and every new image a new engine must be installed ?

I can only ask my question and rise my point again: How should an engine be in China in serial production, if the engine it is originally based on - namely the Ardiden 3C is not ready in Europe yet ????

I' surely eager to learn, but so far I only heard rumours - and to admit most of them simply fan-boy's chatter - that the WZ-16 is ready .... but so far no official link or any other reliable source.

To remind in regard to the Adiden 3C itself: The 3C-version as the latest member of the Ardiden-family is not even listed on the Turbomeca-HP, a first ground run – NOTE: not a test on an actual helicopter – was only done in November 2013 and You really believe reports that serial production started then already in China in 2014 ??? Simply NEVER.

Request Rejected
Turbomeca completes first ground run of Ardiden 3C - 11/28/2013 - Flight Global


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## Beast

Deino said:


> No ... why on earth do all think that with each and every new image a new engine must be installed ?
> 
> I can only ask my question and rise my point again: How should an engine be in China in serial production, if the engine it is originally based on - namely the Ardiden 3C is not ready in Europe yet ????
> 
> I' surely eager to learn, but so far I only heard rumours - and to admit most of them simply fan-boy's chatter - that the WZ-16 is ready .... but so far no official link or any other reliable source.
> 
> To remind in regard to the Adiden 3C itself: The 3C-version as the latest member of the Ardiden-family is not even listed on the Turbomeca-HP, a first ground run – NOTE: not a test on an actual helicopter – was only done in November 2013 and You really believe reports that serial production started then already in China in 2014 ??? Simply NEVER.
> 
> Request Rejected
> Turbomeca completes first ground run of Ardiden 3C - 11/28/2013 - Flight Global



When WS-10A completed all trial run. Did China AVIC make a big whooha about serial production of the turbofan?
I think you are expecting too much for China regarding transparency of China military. Same as WZ9 turboshaft, so nobody knows much news about the engine. Its development and start is still a mystery. But we do know domestic turboshaft is not a big problem since a decent number of WZ-10 gunship has enter service.

Another theory about new turboshaft installed is China willing to export this gunship. More in line and better version for domestic use has come up. I will say the cooperation with France for WZ16 turboshaft is more for civilian market since Embargo against China is still enforced. Military version will be another one but sharing close spec with it.

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## Deino

Agreed, but we all agree that the WZ-16 is in fact based on the Ardiden 3C if not a Chinese-build version of the same. So how can the Chinese version be already in serial production and installed in an improved Z-10 version, if the European original one is not ready yet ! That simply does not make sense ... especially since we do not even have a report about a WZ-16's test run in China nor a reliable source stating that it is ready. All we have are rumours ...

Deino


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## wonderful

Lankan Ranger said:


> *WZ-10 Attack Helicopter already in Service *
> 
> *There are at lease 8 of them already in service by PLA 5th LH Regiment
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good


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## cnleio

_SEXY WZ-10_ [4032 x 2688]
_



_

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## cnleio

WZ-10 fleet flying over

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## cnleio

7x WZ-10 and 12x WZ-19 fleet

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## Beast

HD video of WZ-10 and other Chinese helo flying performance

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## masud

cnleio said:


> 7x WZ-10 and 12x WZ-19 fleet
> 
> View attachment 221121


what is this 70 formation for...............


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## Beast

masud said:


> what is this 70 formation for...............


Victory day celebration.

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## masud

Beast said:


> Victory day celebration.


is china also celebreat ww2 victory pared as like russia because i saw this 70 formation in russian pared too............


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## cnleio

masud said:


> is china also celebreat ww2 victory pared as like russia because i saw this 70 formation in russian pared too............


Yes, 2015.09.03 BeiJing there will be a China military parade for 70th anniversary of WWII Victory Day.

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## cnleio

@Deino 

New WZ-10 mass production ?

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> @Deino
> 
> New WZ-10 mass production ?
> View attachment 224696
> View attachment 224697


He will come up with BS theory claim all these are referbished batch and not something new that kind of nonsense which he never acknowledge those batches are new.


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## cnleio

Beast said:


> He will come up with BS theory claim all these are referbished batch and not something new that kind of nonsense which he never acknowledge those batches are new.


Whatever, there still is WZ-10 just with updated power system maybe WZ-16.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> He will come up with BS theory claim all these are referbished batch and not something new that kind of nonsense which he never acknowledge those batches are new.




Hey exactly ... indeed You are correct !

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## cirr

China has produced the 1st batch of Z-10Ks for its air-assault brigade or division or whatever。

The paint scheme，among other things，is said to be quite interesting。

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Has Pakistan placed the orders yet ?


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## terranMarine

cirr said:


> China has produced the 1st batch of Z-10Ks for its air-assault brigade or division or whatever。
> 
> The paint scheme，among other things，is said to be quite interesting。



Z-10K? how is it different from the Z-10 China has been manufacturing?


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## cirr



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## Deino

You beat me by a minute - again !!... but what is it ?? an installation for that mast-mounted MMR similar to the one seen on the Z-19 ??

Deino


PS: surely it's not a hint for the WZ-16 as some might assume again.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> You beat me by a minute - again !!... but what is it ?? an installation for that mast-mounted MMR similar to the one seen on the Z-19 ??
> 
> Deino
> 
> 
> PS: surely it's not a hint for the WZ-16 as some might assume again.


Yes, it is. Why not? More load and with more powerful engine. We see WZ-10 carry a even more powerful rocket pod.
Rather than some slayer who are repeated busted  Trying to link a massive bach of brand new WZ-10 as refurbished is just dumb in my opinion.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Yes, it is. Why not? More load and with more powerful engine. We see WZ-10 carry a even more powerful rocket pod.
> Rather than some slayer who are repeated busted  Trying to link a massive bach of brand new WZ-10 as refurbished is just dumb in my opinion.




*GIVE ME JUST ONE SOURCE, ONE LINK OR ONE SPECAIL OBSERVATION TAHT BAKES YOUR CLAIM ...* other wise shut up !

I make You a suggestion: You give us an argument, a photographic evidence for each of the points You repeatedly attacked me or my arguments (see PLAAF-tread) ... and please do not tell me "these are new images so these are new birds and so they must have a new powerplant" ... otherwise I will send You into vacation for one week, just to think about that this is a place to discuss & argue and not to push an opinion thru ...

So it's Your turn ...
De


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## Beast

Deino said:


> GIVE ME JUST ONE SOURCE, ONE LINK OR ONE SPECAIL OBSERVATION TAHT BAKES YOUR CLAIM ... other wise shut up !


Give me a concrete proof that those long batch of new WZ-10 with new EO on nose is refurbished WZ-10. I will eat back my word.

Very obvious that from a reputable Chinese weapon mention those WZ-10 are new build helo and not as some naive suggested as refurbished. Oops, I forget, you cant read Chinese. So you better listen to us who know Chinese, ok?

Shall I listen to the Chinese magazine editor who has close link to PLA or some foreign forumer who just makes guessing?

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## Deino

Just another try:

Give me one proof and even more what is this "reputable Chinese weapon" ... I explained my concerns but You simply believe what You want to believe. And by the way I am already contacted by several Chinese magazines to write for them ... so much on all they write must be true, they - like some reports in Chinese TV - are no better any other open public source, that takes the information from such forums like all we do ... the point is not to ignore facts even if they don't fit Your opinion.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Just another try:
> 
> Give me one proof and even more what is this "reputable Chinese weapon" ... I explained my concerns but You simply believe what You want to believe. And by the way I am already contacted by several Chinese magazines to write for them ... so much on all they write must be true, they - like some reports in Chinese TV - are no better any other open public source, that takes the information from such forums like all we do ... the point is not to ignore facts even if they don't fit Your opinion.
> 
> Deino













I rather trust the Chinese weapon magazine info than your nonsense.

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## cirr

The latest upgraded version of Z-10 - Z-10X-01：







Image partially altered to hide key info。

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## XiaoYaoZi

Can you see any differences in this new choper. @Deino

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## cirr

XiaoYaoZi said:


> Can you see any differences in this new choper. @Deino



Said to be purpose-designed for Type 075 LHD。

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## Martian2

*WZ-10 Attack Helicopter with AKD-10 anti-tank missiles*

WZ-10 helicopters carrying missiles in island capture drill





"WZ-10 helicopters carrying missiles under the Nanjing Military Area Command (MAC) of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) conduct a drill over the sea on July 21, 2015. (81.cn/Photo)"











Note: AKD-10 = Chinese Hellfire missile
----------

*Rare Footage: China's WZ-10 Gunships Firing Missiles*

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## cirr

Among other things，models of a heavy duty helicopter and a variant of the Z-19，named Z-19E，will be revealed by AVIC at the Tianjin Helicopter Expo held 9-13.09.2015。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Among other things，models of a heavy duty helicopter and a variant of the Z-19，named Z-19E，will be revealed by AVIC at the Tianjin Helicopter Expo held 9-13.09.2015。



Any information on a potential heavy attack helicopter (in the same class as the Ka-50/52 or AH-64)?


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## cirr



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## cirr

Lin Zuoming，Chairman of the Board of Directors，AVIC，glaring down at his own feet？











E for Export? Enhanced? Extended?

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## jaiind

how much its advanced when you compare to z10??


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## Malik Alashter

I don't understand why they didn't arm this chopper with gun? it's a need!.


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## Maarkhoor

Malik Alashter said:


> I don't understand why they didn't arm this chopper with gun? it's a need!.


Because of a big nose radar but guns can be mounted on sides.

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## cirr

AVIC's new heavy duty helicopter











Main technical specs：

Max. takeoff weight：38.2 tons
Max. cruising speed：300kph
Service ceiling：5700m
Range：630km

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## cirr

AVIC Helicopter‘s AC3X2

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## Beast

cirr said:


> AVIC Helicopter‘s AC3X2



THat is a very spacious helo.

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## Muhammad Omar

Is Z-19e a Light Attack Helicopter? and how much it's better then Z-10??


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## Deino

Nice ... could the letter "E" be a hint for an export version ??


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## dev_moh

cirr said:


> AVIC Helicopter‘s AC3X2



It looks damn cool. What is its 
developmental status ?


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## qwerrty

ac3x2

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## Shotgunner51

Malik Alashter said:


> I don't understand why they didn't arm this chopper with gun? it's a need!.



Unlike Z-10 which is a heavy attack helo, Z-19 is a light scout/observation helo and if gun is needed, a pod will suffice.



VARCHASVE said:


> Because of a big nose radar but guns can be mounted on sides.



Yup

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## Muhammad Omar

man i'm in love with this helo

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Nice ... could the letter "E" be a hint for an export version ??



Yes，E for Export。


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## SR-91

qwerrty said:


> ac3x2




That's a very beautiful design, very futuristic.
Congrats


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## monitor

* Close-up photos of Z-19E attack helicopter *













































You might also like:

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## cirr

China will batch-produce 4th generation helicopters by the end of the 13th 5-year plan（2016-2020）：

中国第4代直升机或2020年量产 多领域超直10-中新网

WZ-100 “Warrior” UCAV

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## Shabi1

jaiind said:


> how much its advanced when you compare to z10??



Z-19 is supposed to be a armed scout helicopter, to supplement the Z-10 and direct artillery. Its in the same category as US Kiowa Warrior.

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## Shotgunner51

Shabi1 said:


> Z-19 is supposed to be a armed scout helicopter, to supplement the Z-10 and direct artillery. Its in the same category as US Kiowa Warrior.



Yes that's the positioning of Z-19, hence instead of firepower, priorities are given to sensors and comms, in order to support Z-10 heavy attack helo or ground artillery. Though there is export potential for armies that need light attack/scout helo, so here it goes Z-19E.

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## Muhammad Omar

cirr said:


> China will batch-produce 4th generation helicopters by the end of the 13th 5-year plan（2016-2020）：
> 
> 中国第4代直升机或2020年量产 多领域超直10-中新网
> 
> WZ-100 “Warrior” UCAV



Damn It's a beast....

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## cirr

Z-19 with a mushroom atop：

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## aliaselin

AC3X2 is formally named as AC322

Performance
Take-off weight: 3175 kg
Maximum speed: 270 km/h
Range: 700 km
Service ceiling: 5,000 m
Endurance: 4.2 hr

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## cirr

AC352

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## Deino

cirr said:


> AC352




Even if I can't see Your image right now I was able to download it from its original source ... however it is not a AC.352 but the EC-175 prototype with the serial F-WWOB !

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> China will batch-produce 4th generation helicopters by the end of the 13th 5-year plan（2016-2020）：
> 
> 中国第4代直升机或2020年量产 多领域超直10-中新网
> 
> WZ-100 “Warrior” UCAV



At what stage of development is this UAV? There seems to be a small inset in the top photo that supposedly depicts a prototype in a plant.


----------



## Deino

cirr said:


> AC352



Here's the real AC-352 !

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## Muhammad Omar

Is there some kind of Heli Expo going on in China?


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## Shotgunner51

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is there some kind of Heli Expo going on in China?



Yes brother!

350 companies attend the Tianjin Helicopter Expo in September
350 companies attend the Tianjin Helicopter Expo in September

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## bdslph

cirr said:


> China will batch-produce 4th generation helicopters by the end of the 13th 5-year plan（2016-2020）：
> 
> 中国第4代直升机或2020年量产 多领域超直10-中新网
> 
> WZ-100 “Warrior” UCAV




SWEET I WANT ONE OF THOSE FOR MY BDAY 
JUST LIKE MOVIE 
ITS COMING REAL FROM CHINA


----------



## The Last of us

cirr said:


> China will batch-produce 4th generation helicopters by the end of the 13th 5-year plan（2016-2020）：
> 
> 中国第4代直升机或2020年量产 多领域超直10-中新网
> 
> WZ-100 “Warrior” UCAV





A beautiful and practical design, looks sci-fi (can I have one? ). The moment when your nation reaches the technological level which means it starts to innovate and create its own unique designs is a good feeling which our Chinese friends must be feeling on a daily basis now. Hopefully, in the not so distant future, Iranian like me can also get the feeling . But still, seeing our Chinese friends make high quality hardware makes me happy. Godspeed to your hard-working scientists and engineers.

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## Thunder Bolt

WZ-19E

For nations hoping to buy China’s advanced weapons on display in the Sept 3 V-Day parade, here’s some good news－China is ready to export one of its top military helicopters.

“The government has given the green light for the export of the WZ-19. Actually, some foreign buyers are in negotiations with us on the procurement of this helicopter,” said Wu Ximing, chief helicopter designer at Aviation Industry Corp of China. Wu spoke with China Daily on the sidelines of the Third China Helicopter Expo.

“We will adjust equipment or weapons based on each buyer’s specific requirements. As a matter of fact, some potential buyers have been involved in the design of the WZ-19’s export type,” he said.

Wu declined to reveal identities of potential buyers, but hinted they are traditional users of Chinese aircraft.

“Compared with its rivals in the market, the WZ-19E is easier to operate and maintain. It has a strong capability, and its price is competitive,” he said.

The aviation giant is displaying an export version of the WZ-19 reconnaissance/attack helicopter, which it calls the WZ-19E, at the five-day expo. An introduction board placed in front of the aircraft says it is a light-duty military helicopter used to conduct air-to-surface strike against tanks, armored vehicles and fortifications.

It can also carry air-to-air missiles to battle enemy helicopters, the introduction said.

Thirty WZ-19s from the aviation wing under the People’s Liberation Army ground force took part in last week’s parade, flying with two other types of military helicopters－the WZ-10 and WZ-9.

The WZ-19 design is based on the WZ-9, which has its origin in the French Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin, and will work with the medium-duty attack helicopter WZ-10 in combat operations, sources said.

Developed by AVIC’s Harbin Aircraft Industry Group, the helicopter is propelled by four blades driven by two turboshaft engines.

It has a maximum cruise speed of 245 km per hour, a maximum takeoff weight of 4.51 metric tons and an operational range of 700 km, according to the Show Daily, an industry daily published during the expo by AVIC.

The helicopter can carry eight missiles and two rocket launchers. To protect its pilots, it is equipped with armor plating and crash-resistant seats.

“It will be attractive to many developing nations that don’t have a big defense budget but want to deploy a usable attack helicopter,” said Wu Peixin, an aviation observer in Beijing.
China Clears WZ-19 Attack Helicopter for Export | Air Force & Aerospace News at DefenceTalk

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## Indus Falcon

@Thunder Bolt Keep up the good work

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## Thunder Bolt

Indus Falcon said:


> @Thunder Bolt Keep up the good work


Thanx Sir

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## Indus Falcon

Thunder Bolt said:


> Thanx Sir


You are welcome bro, anytime.

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## Zarvan

Thunder Bolt said:


> WZ-19E
> 
> For nations hoping to buy China’s advanced weapons on display in the Sept 3 V-Day parade, here’s some good news－China is ready to export one of its top military helicopters.
> 
> “The government has given the green light for the export of the WZ-19. Actually, some foreign buyers are in negotiations with us on the procurement of this helicopter,” said Wu Ximing, chief helicopter designer at Aviation Industry Corp of China. Wu spoke with China Daily on the sidelines of the Third China Helicopter Expo.
> 
> “We will adjust equipment or weapons based on each buyer’s specific requirements. As a matter of fact, some potential buyers have been involved in the design of the WZ-19’s export type,” he said.
> 
> Wu declined to reveal identities of potential buyers, but hinted they are traditional users of Chinese aircraft.
> 
> “Compared with its rivals in the market, the WZ-19E is easier to operate and maintain. It has a strong capability, and its price is competitive,” he said.
> 
> The aviation giant is displaying an export version of the WZ-19 reconnaissance/attack helicopter, which it calls the WZ-19E, at the five-day expo. An introduction board placed in front of the aircraft says it is a light-duty military helicopter used to conduct air-to-surface strike against tanks, armored vehicles and fortifications.
> 
> It can also carry air-to-air missiles to battle enemy helicopters, the introduction said.
> 
> Thirty WZ-19s from the aviation wing under the People’s Liberation Army ground force took part in last week’s parade, flying with two other types of military helicopters－the WZ-10 and WZ-9.
> 
> The WZ-19 design is based on the WZ-9, which has its origin in the French Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin, and will work with the medium-duty attack helicopter WZ-10 in combat operations, sources said.
> 
> Developed by AVIC’s Harbin Aircraft Industry Group, the helicopter is propelled by four blades driven by two turboshaft engines.
> 
> It has a maximum cruise speed of 245 km per hour, a maximum takeoff weight of 4.51 metric tons and an operational range of 700 km, according to the Show Daily, an industry daily published during the expo by AVIC.
> 
> The helicopter can carry eight missiles and two rocket launchers. To protect its pilots, it is equipped with armor plating and crash-resistant seats.
> 
> “It will be attractive to many developing nations that don’t have a big defense budget but want to deploy a usable attack helicopter,” said Wu Peixin, an aviation observer in Beijing.
> China Clears WZ-19 Attack Helicopter for Export | Air Force & Aerospace News at DefenceTalk


Looks nice and China can earn a lot through its exports it only lacks machine gun

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> it only lacks machine gun


Main machine gun and Air to air capability i guess ... That's why it is light attack and scout helicopter

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Main machine gun and Air to air capability i guess ... That's why it is light attack and scout helicopter


Our budget sucks other wise best for Para Military forces. I would love to see it with Rangers and FC

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Para Military forces


Para military forces needs a chopper with main gun (anti personal operations) 

you can't waste a missile for a person



Zarvan said:


> Our budget sucks


Our budget sucks because of faults in taxation system in the country

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## Muhammad Omar

nice heli....

This could be used against BLA scums in Baluchistan... Who needs a gun fire missile 

And could be used in Gawadar many are attacking Gawadar Airport need few of these

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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> Who needs a gun fire missile


missiles are expensive and overkill for these scums ... 23 mm gun is better for defenceless terrorists

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> missiles are expensive and overkill for these scums ... 23 mm gun is better for defenceless terrorists


Who told you I am talking about against insurgents ? I am talking about Indian armor

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## Muhammad Omar

Sulman Badshah said:


> missiles are expensive and overkill for these scums ... 23 mm gun is better for defenceless terrorists



These can help in firing missiles on compounds

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## Beast

I think a nose gun can be added on request. I will not be surprised a slot is available below fuselage ready to install the chain gun. But it will increase the helo cost and maintenance require.

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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> I think a nose gun can be added on request. I will not be surprised a slot is available below fuselage ready to install the chain gun. But it will increase the helo cost and maintenance require.



Yupe anything is easy for Chinese


----------



## cirr

Muhammad Omar said:


> Yupe anything is easy for Chinese



How about a pair of machine guns for the terrorists？

Here comes the right machine gun for you：







and the left

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## Sulman Badshah

cirr said:


> Here comes the right machine gun for you：



there should be a Turret machine gun ... 

for podded machine gun you have to move helicopter to hit moving target ...but for turret only turret moves 

(Just like in WZ10 Attack helicopter)

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## bdslph

says traditional customer then i guess Bangladesh is also there wish to 

any one idea how much are this babies the Wz10 and Wz19 E


----------



## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> Looks nice and China can earn a lot through its exports it only lacks machine gun


Guns can be mounted on sides

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## Zarvan

Thunder Bolt said:


> WZ-19E
> 
> For nations hoping to buy China’s advanced weapons on display in the Sept 3 V-Day parade, here’s some good news－China is ready to export one of its top military helicopters.
> 
> “The government has given the green light for the export of the WZ-19. Actually, some foreign buyers are in negotiations with us on the procurement of this helicopter,” said Wu Ximing, chief helicopter designer at Aviation Industry Corp of China. Wu spoke with China Daily on the sidelines of the Third China Helicopter Expo.
> 
> “We will adjust equipment or weapons based on each buyer’s specific requirements. As a matter of fact, some potential buyers have been involved in the design of the WZ-19’s export type,” he said.
> 
> Wu declined to reveal identities of potential buyers, but hinted they are traditional users of Chinese aircraft.
> 
> “Compared with its rivals in the market, the WZ-19E is easier to operate and maintain. It has a strong capability, and its price is competitive,” he said.
> 
> The aviation giant is displaying an export version of the WZ-19 reconnaissance/attack helicopter, which it calls the WZ-19E, at the five-day expo. An introduction board placed in front of the aircraft says it is a light-duty military helicopter used to conduct air-to-surface strike against tanks, armored vehicles and fortifications.
> 
> It can also carry air-to-air missiles to battle enemy helicopters, the introduction said.
> 
> Thirty WZ-19s from the aviation wing under the People’s Liberation Army ground force took part in last week’s parade, flying with two other types of military helicopters－the WZ-10 and WZ-9.
> 
> The WZ-19 design is based on the WZ-9, which has its origin in the French Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin, and will work with the medium-duty attack helicopter WZ-10 in combat operations, sources said.
> 
> Developed by AVIC’s Harbin Aircraft Industry Group, the helicopter is propelled by four blades driven by two turboshaft engines.
> 
> It has a maximum cruise speed of 245 km per hour, a maximum takeoff weight of 4.51 metric tons and an operational range of 700 km, according to the Show Daily, an industry daily published during the expo by AVIC.
> 
> The helicopter can carry eight missiles and two rocket launchers. To protect its pilots, it is equipped with armor plating and crash-resistant seats.
> 
> “It will be attractive to many developing nations that don’t have a big defense budget but want to deploy a usable attack helicopter,” said Wu Peixin, an aviation observer in Beijing.
> China Clears WZ-19 Attack Helicopter for Export | Air Force & Aerospace News at DefenceTalk


China should add a machine gun to this helicopter other wise it would find hard to find buyers

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> China should add a machine gun to this helicopter other wise it would find hard to find buyers



I think they'll add it according to the customers (countries) needs with A specific Price tag.....

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## Zarvan

Indus Falcon said:


> View attachment 259419


These are WZ-10 not WZ-19 E

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## Indus Falcon

Zarvan said:


> These are WZ-10 not WZ-19 E


Sorry bro, late night, I'm tired


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## Deino

XiaoYaoZi said:


> Can you see any differences in this new choper. @Deino




Yes, most of all it features a new, slightly different gun installation ... here now in black !

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## j20blackdragon



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## Beast

Deino said:


> Yes, most of all it features a new, slightly different gun installation ... here now in black !
> 
> View attachment 259865
> View attachment 259866



Not only new gun but more powerful turboshaft.

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## j20blackdragon



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## S. Martin

SinoChallenger said:


> Now that WZ-10A is mass produced, PLA is the most powerful ground forces in the world..[/INDENT][/INDENT]




How dare you say like that just because of a new type of helicopter? Remember Soviet Mig-24's experience in Afghan and US's Blackhawk in Somalia. What's purpose of you to say like that? Anyway China never aim to challenge worlds' other armies. It sounds like ignorant megalomaniac's crazy talk. Never to say " the most powerful" in the world, just see how Roma Empire collaped.


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


>




Interesting, that this unit uses Z-10 with the new and old gun turret as well.

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## Deino

Nice ..

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## kungfugymnast

Sulman Badshah said:


> there should be a Turret machine gun ...
> 
> for podded machine gun you have to move helicopter to hit moving target ...but for turret only turret moves
> 
> (Just like in WZ10 Attack helicopter)



Wz19 is slightly above light attack helicopter but below medium attack helicopter. Its engines are not powerful enough to support the additional weight of gun turret. Wz19 is slightly above gazalle helicopter, could only carry limited payload. 

Wz10 is medium attack helicopter fitted with more powerful engine. Even so, wz10 can't carry payload as heavy as ah1w super cobra.


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## Basel

Can it work at high altitudes like Siachine & Kargil with or without 12/14.5 mm gun installed?

@waz @Horus @gambit


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## Sulman Badshah

kungfugymnast said:


> Even so, wz10 can't carry payload as heavy as ah1w super cobra.


On Payload i agree on AH1Z Viper ... 

But WZ10 is good in payload as compared to AH1W


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## kungfugymnast

Sulman Badshah said:


> On Payload i agree on AH1Z Viper ...
> 
> But WZ10 is good in payload as compared to AH1W



Wz10 engine thrust 2x 1350shp 

Wz19 engine thrust 2x 940shp

Ah1z viper engine thrust 2x 1800shp

Ah1w super cobra engine thrust 2x 1690shp

Denel rooivalk engine 2x 1904shp

A129 mangusta engine 2x 890shp

Eurocopter Tiger engines 2x 1303shp

Both wz10 and wz19 are better than mangusta and oldest single engine cobra. They are not on same league as ah1w super cobra, ah1z viper and rooivalk. The wz10 could challenge the expensive eurocopter tiger. China needs bigger more powerful enginese for wz10 before could challenge super cobra and viper that could carry full load on 4 main pylons and additional 2 for Aim9m sidewinder giving it capability to shoot down air targets at 9 miles away


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## Sulman Badshah

kungfugymnast said:


> wz10 and wz19 are better than mangusta and oldest single engine cobra.


Payload doesn't mean a powerful engine ... Engine have some part in it ... But even turkish new T129 with its engine provide good payload ...

WZ10 can provide 8 main ATGM's + 38 unguided rockets (that is same as AH1W, T129, Eurocopter tiger etc) 
However WZ10 is superior to AH1W due to its stealthy airframe, high altitude capability, better rotor system , and better avionics 

helicopters like apache, Ah1Z, mi28 can take 16 main ATGMS with them ...


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## kungfugymnast

Sulman Badshah said:


> Payload doesn't mean a powerful engine ... Engine have some part in it ... But even turkish new T129 with its engine provide good payload ...
> 
> WZ10 can provide 8 main ATGM's + 38 unguided rockets (that is same as AH1W, T129, Eurocopter tiger etc)
> However WZ10 is superior to AH1W due to its stealthy airframe, high altitude capability, better rotor system , and better avionics
> 
> helicopters like apache, Ah1Z, mi28 can take 16 main ATGMS with them ...



In terms of engine power, the super cobra is superior in thrust to weight, armor, not just payload. We're referring medium attack helicopters comparison.

Apache, mi28, hokum belong to heavy attack helicopter category.


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## black-hawk_101

Though my wish is that PAA cancel the order of Vipers and go for:
100 Z-10P (30 Block-I + 30 Block-II + 40 Block-III) till 2025
100 Z-19P (30 Block-I + 30 Block-II + 40 Block-III) till 2025
60 Mi-35s (20 Block-I + 20 Block-II + 20 Block-III) till 2025
Sell out Cobras with USA permission. May be buy some 10+ P-3Cs as they are good for attack and reconnaissance.

As there is and will be its need in all over Pakistan.


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## kungfugymnast

black-hawk_101 said:


> Though my wish is that PAA cancel the order of Vipers and go for:
> 100 Z-10P (30 Block-I + 30 Block-II + 40 Block-III) till 2025
> 100 Z-19P (30 Block-I + 30 Block-II + 40 Block-III) till 2025
> 60 Mi-35s (20 Block-I + 20 Block-II + 20 Block-III) till 2025
> Sell out Cobras with USA permission. May be buy some 10+ P-3Cs as they are good for attack and reconnaissance.
> 
> As there is and will be its need in all over Pakistan.



PAA should proceed with ah1z viper because it is a better attack helicopter in terms of technology, avionics, payloads, engines power, armor, etc. China will only come up with better helicopter next round maybe after they get to reverse engineer better chopper.


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## Deino

Any - similar to Your L-15-wish list - who should pay for them ??


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> PAA should proceed with ah1z viper because it is a better attack helicopter in terms of technology, avionics, payloads, engines power, armor, etc. China will only come up with better helicopter next round maybe after they get to reverse engineer better chopper.


Yes and let Pakistan continued held ransom to American will?

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Yes and let Pakistan continued held ransom to American will?



What ransom? Pakistan will be safe if it pretends neutral and friendly to Americans. There are countries that buy from Russian, Chinese but at the same time from Americans. By doing so, America will not label Pakistan as enemy and turn its support to India. It's called play smart.


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> What ransom? Pakistan will be safe if it pretends neutral and friendly to Americans. There are countries that buy from Russian, Chinese but at the same time from Americans. By doing so, America will not label Pakistan as enemy and turn its support to India. It's called play smart.



As if Pakistan has a choice? USA has a history of blocking spares for PAF F-16 and even failing to deliver paid F-16 to PAF for policy against US interest. PAF current Viper has also difficulties getting spare from US supplier. I do not wish to elaborate further. Our Paskistan friends has more knowledge and history of those incident.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> As if Pakistan has a choice? USA has a history of blocking spares for PAF F-16 and even failing to deliver paid F-16 to PAF for policy against US interest. PAF current Viper has also difficulties getting spare from US supplier. I do not wish to elaborate further. Our Paskistan friends has more knowledge and history of those incident.



Buy in small numbers then, just to let china reverse engineer and in return they get new attack helicopters with better engines, armor and payloads. Just don't break any law before getting the shipment. 

Check how Iran got their f14 Alicats, f4, f5 and chieftain tanks operational without spare parts. Through replication aka reverse engineering done by Russian and Chinese. Genuine suppliers cut off deals, go for replica copy goods then. When they reach end of lifespan, replace with new fighters that are results of reverse engineering.


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## black-hawk_101

kungfugymnast said:


> PAA should proceed with ah1z viper because it is a better attack helicopter in terms of technology, avionics, payloads, engines power, armor, etc. China will only come up with better helicopter next round maybe after they get to reverse engineer better chopper.



I think PAA has not done right at all. They should have procured more AH-1 Cobras from Turkey, Bahrain, Jordan, Spain, Philippines and USA as spare/full helicopter with upgrades and keep them running as much as they can.

Also, Vipers are not good and may be US might embargo it once again. So its better to have a fleet like I suggest.


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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAA has not done right at all. They should have procured more AH-1 Cobras from Turkey, Bahrain, Jordan, Spain, Philippines and USA as spare/full helicopter with upgrades and keep them running as much as they can.
> 
> Also, Vipers are not good and may be US might embargo it once again. So its better to have a fleet like I suggest.



Vipers are best out there . Viper is US marine equivalent of Apache .. they are equivalent of APache and in some spec and operations Vipers are better than apache...

getting viper as a main attack helicopter is a good decision ...

Foreign AH1 are obsolete and have completed their airframe life ... and can't be used further and they are also low altitude helicopters which can't be used in mountain areas





kungfugymnast said:


> PAA should proceed with ah1z viper because it is a better attack helicopter in terms of technology, avionics, payloads, engines power, armor, etc



PAA have already proceeded with viper as main attack helicopter .. as number of viper are low (15 approved) .. rest of demand will be completed through WZ10
Mi35 M is being procured as well for para military and special forces
so in future PAA will have good attack chopper fleet

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## kungfugymnast

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAA has not done right at all. They should have procured more AH-1 Cobras from Turkey, Bahrain, Jordan, Spain, Philippines and USA as spare/full helicopter with upgrades and keep them running as much as they can.
> 
> Also, Vipers are not good and may be US might embargo it once again. So its better to have a fleet like I suggest.



Buying American weapons, Pakistan just need to play the game by the book to avoid embargo. Vipers are 1 of the best chopper actually, despite slightly 100shp less than denel rooivalk, the viper is far superior in terms of avionics, armor and aerodynamic. Don't waste money on worn out second hand old cobras that are non-worthy



Sulman Badshah said:


> Vipers are best out there . Viper is US marine equivalent of Apache .. they are equivalent of APache and in some spec and operations Vipers are better than apache...
> 
> getting viper as a main attack helicopter is a good decision ...
> 
> Foreign AH1 are obsolete and have completed their airframe life ... and can't be used further and they are also low altitude helicopters which can't be used in mountain areas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAA have already proceeded with viper as main attack helicopter .. as number of viper are low (15 approved) .. rest of demand will be completed through WZ10
> Mi35 M is being procured as well for para military and special forces
> so in future PAA will have good attack chopper fleet



Good choice to have more varieties. Vipers for heavy and high risk assault, wz10 for recon and close air support while mi35 for transporting troops yet able to provide fire support.


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## Deino

Guys ... there's a separate tread regarding PA helicopter planning and acquisition ... There You can discuss what's wishful thinking, desirable or required ... and maybe even affordable but here let's stick to the topic !

Deino


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Interesting, that this unit uses Z-10 with the new and old gun turret as well.


Photos of New Improved Version of China’s Apache — WZ-10 | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements
Can you explain the new changes done in WZ-10 and How would you rate this newly upgraded WZ-10 in comparison to Apache ?


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## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Photos of New Improved Version of China’s Apache — WZ-10 | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements
> Can you explain the new changes done in WZ-10 and How would you rate this newly upgraded WZ-10 in comparison to Apache ?




To admit that report is a bit off IMO. There are not four but only one image and externally there at least to my eyes to changes on the engines, even if it is reported that a more powerful version might be installed. Biggest change however is a recently introduced new gun-turret for the gun.


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> To admit that report is a bit off IMO. There are not four but only one image and externally there at least to my eyes to changes on the engines, even if it is reported that a more powerful version might be installed. Biggest change however is a recently introduced new gun-turret for the gun.


AH64 & 1Z uses "heat shield" on engine exhaust in order to reduce heat signature and disrupt heat seeking anti AIR missile. WZ10 lack this attribute.

More details will come with time.
Longbow type radar is crucial if Chinese want to make WZ10 of same class as American gunships. It vastly increases search,scan,track and engage capabilities of chopper. Longbow apache when was test against Ordinary Apache, it scored 270+ points against 70 points...... that's the difference....
*A friend wrote this on Facebook will you like to answer the issues pointed out ? *@Deino @cirr @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> AH64 & 1Z uses "heat shield" on engine exhaust in order to reduce heat signature and disrupt heat seeking anti AIR missile. WZ10 lack this attribute.
> 
> More details will come with time.
> Longbow type radar is crucial if Chinese want to make WZ10 of same class as American gunships. It vastly increases search,scan,track and engage capabilities of chopper. Longbow apache when was test against Ordinary Apache, it scored 270+ points against 70 points...... that's the difference....
> *A friend wrote this on Facebook will you like to answer the issues pointed out ? *@Deino @cirr @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986


The heat shield is over rated. West always spread many false hope and brag abt how effective and powerful this feature is. The US brag abt their M1A tank seperate compartment can protect crew In case of a penetration compare to Russian T-72 chassis which is nothing but a pack of rubbish.






The heat shield is totally useless against modern MANPAD like stinger II or China FN-6 which uses next generation IR lenses.

WZ-10 possess powerful datalink which is has process info from other sources. Modern gunship do not work alone. They work in a group and share info. UAV or WZ-9 fitted with radar can easily fed other gunship and form formidable attack.

I advise stop listening too much of western propaganda bragging abt their weapon.

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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> The heat shield is over rated. West always spread many false hope and brag abt how effective and powerful this feature is. The US brag abt their M1A tank seperate compartment can protect crew In case of a penetration compare to Russian T-72 chassis which is nothing but a pack of rubbish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The heat shield is totally useless against modern MANPAD like stinger II or China FN-6 which uses next generation IR lenses.
> 
> WZ-10 possess powerful datalink which is has process info from other sources. Modern gunship do not work alone. They work in a group and share info. UAV or WZ-9 fitted with radar can easily fed other gunship and form formidable attack.
> 
> I advise stop listening too much of western propaganda bragging abt their weapon.


When China plans to introduce LongBow equivalent ?


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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> When China plans to introduce LongBow equivalent ?


We have experiment helo mount radar but finds the result inferior compare to UAV fed datalink support. That is why China UAV is expanding rapidly and advancing quickly. UAV is stealthier, flys higher and has a great endurance. The combo of UAV , satelite plus attack helo proves far superior than longbow radar.







The key is a modern, powerful and reliable datalink in nowadays warfare.

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## shahzad qamar

Is Pakistan use wz-10 attack helicopter


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## Zarvan

shahzad qamar said:


> Is Pakistan use wz-10 attack helicopter


We are testing 3 of them if the pass tests and we get satisfied by their performance we would order lot more


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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> The heat shield is over rated. West always spread many false hope and brag abt how effective and powerful this feature is. The US brag abt their M1A tank seperate compartment can protect crew In case of a penetration compare to Russian T-72 chassis which is nothing but a pack of rubbish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The heat shield is totally useless against modern MANPAD like stinger II or China FN-6 which uses next generation IR lenses.
> 
> WZ-10 possess powerful datalink which is has process info from other sources. Modern gunship do not work alone. They work in a group and share info. UAV or WZ-9 fitted with radar can easily fed other gunship and form formidable attack.
> 
> I advise stop listening too much of western propaganda bragging abt their weapon.



@Zarvan is actually correct on US attack helicopter capabilities and strengths. China is still behind in terms of attack helicopters tech. Because russia refused to sell hokum or mi28 to china, it won't be able to reverse engineer heavy and powerful attack helicopter early. 

Apache is best attack helicopter, it had the best survival rate with best avionics and countermeasures. You don't have to listen, you just have to ask directly military and insurgents who fought apaches and abrams. When situation is scarce, you think you can get UAV to assist you? That UAV might be shot down already. The longbow ah64d/e allows you to be independent, sneak through trees and launch hellfire missiles without being spotted.

The downgraded Iraqis m1a1 proved to be far better than t72. The anti~tank missiles failed to punch through its thick armor, only able to damage the tracks, engines, turret and ammo bustle. But not to worry because china obtained abrams from Hezbollah via Iran and done reverse engineering on it. Russians bought some for same purpose.


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## Zarvan

kungfugymnast said:


> @Zarvan is actually correct on US attack helicopter capabilities and strengths. China is still behind in terms of attack helicopters tech. Because russia refused to sell hokum or mi28 to china, it won't be able to reverse engineer heavy and powerful attack helicopter early.
> 
> Apache is best attack helicopter, it had the best survival rate with best avionics and countermeasures. You don't have to listen, you just have to ask directly military and insurgents who fought apaches and abrams. When situation is scarce, you think you can get UAV to assist you? That UAV might be shot down already. The longbow ah64d/e allows you to be independent, sneak through trees and launch hellfire missiles without being spotted.
> 
> The downgraded Iraqis m1a1 proved to be far better than t72. The anti~tank missiles failed to punch through its thick armor, only able to damage the tracks, engines, turret and ammo bustle. But not to worry because china obtained abrams from Hezbollah via Iran and done reverse engineering on it. Russians bought some for same purpose.


Sorry Iraqi M1A1 proved to be disaster as for Apache it had been shot down several times in Iraq and other parts of the world but still a great beast. As for WZ-10 with good Air to Air Missile and 8 Anti Tank Missiles it is great machine for us


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## kungfugymnast

Zarvan said:


> Sorry Iraqi M1A1 proved to be disaster as for Apache it had been shot down several times in Iraq and other parts of the world but still a great beast. As for WZ-10 with good Air to Air Missile and 8 Anti Tank Missiles it is great machine for us



Iraqi m1a1 is not as good as the actual m1a1 but the iraqi forces had poor strategy that their tanks went deep into ambush point without infantry back up. 

US ah64 apache in desert storm, 2 were shot down by multiple AAA, Sams and tanks when the squad of Apaches flew over enemy large ground forces without knowing it. In iraqi freedom, there's 1 apache that suffered engine malfunction and landed hard, not being shotdown.

If china wanted truly good attack helicopter, it would need an AH-1z Viper from Pakistan to reverse engineer. But still, the viper is not true heavy attack helicopter in the same league as Apache, hokum and havoc


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> @Zarvan is actually correct on US attack helicopter capabilities and strengths. China is still behind in terms of attack helicopters tech. Because russia refused to sell hokum or mi28 to china, it won't be able to reverse engineer heavy and powerful attack helicopter early.
> 
> Apache is best attack helicopter, it had the best survival rate with best avionics and countermeasures. You don't have to listen, you just have to ask directly military and insurgents who fought apaches and abrams. When situation is scarce, you think you can get UAV to assist you? That UAV might be shot down already. The longbow ah64d/e allows you to be independent, sneak through trees and launch hellfire missiles without being spotted.
> 
> The downgraded Iraqis m1a1 proved to be far better than t72. The anti~tank missiles failed to punch through its thick armor, only able to damage the tracks, engines, turret and ammo bustle. But not to worry because china obtained abrams from Hezbollah via Iran and done reverse engineering on it. Russians bought some for same purpose.


 
In a modern warfare, military system do not work alone. Can your F-15 enter enemy airspace w/o AWACS /AEW support. Yes it can but chances of survivor against a peer foe is low. Modern gunship too. Using MALE UAV to provide the targeting and surveilance is the best solution Becos it survey in higher place, see further and better. Longbow radar can never outrange UAV surveilance capabilities unless it install an aircraft size radar scan. Talking abt air threat to UAV. If something can threat it, it will be also a threat to attack gunship. 

As for western product, they tend to exaggerated and overstate their weapon while using careful phase and stage non combat field test to prove their point while using lots of untrue fact to bash opponent weapon.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> In a modern warfare, military system do not work alone. Can your F-15 enter enemy airspace w/o AWACS /AEW support. Yes it can but chances of survivor against a peer foe is low. Modern gunship too. Using MALE UAV to provide the targeting and surveilance is the best solution Becos it survey in higher place, see further and better. Longbow radar can never outrange UAV surveilance capabilities unless it install an aircraft size radar scan. Talking abt air threat to UAV. If something can threat it, it will be also a threat to attack gunship.
> 
> As for western product, they tend to exaggerated and overstate their weapon while using careful phase and stage non combat field test to prove their point while using lots of untrue fact to bash opponent weapon.



Gunship could fly low and go terrain mapping, which is why apaches were often used to take out SAM sites and enemy radars. UAV doesn't do that, check how often US drones being shot down.

US weapons aren't exaggerated, they are good and which is why China took US weapons to challenge trying to build something better.

Look at how Apaches were ambushed by entire ground forces hidden in city during karbala missions, 29 of them took multiple serious hits yet managed to return home out of 30. Exclude 1 that crashed during take off probably on purpose as the pilot was too nervous with urban warfare assault. If this happened to other attack helicopters, the casualties would be far higher. Wz10 and wz19 lacked the armor in apache, hokum and havoc.

If AWACS got shot down, the f15s could still operate. There are times where f15s got itself into unexpected situation that they performed well and defeated the surprise attackers. Yes, you need support from surveillance but not rely heavily on them as they might not be available all the time.


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## Akasa

It seems that work has started on a heavyweight helicopter which, according to rumors, will look like a mix between the Mi-28 and AH-64.

It is unknown if this project is related to the stealthy attack helicopter that is slated for induction in 2020.

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## black-hawk_101

so how many Z-10P Block-I will China going to supply? I think it will 20 in nos. As these will be guarding the Balochistan CPEC area.


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> It seems that work has started on a heavyweight helicopter which, according to rumors, will look like a mix between the Mi-28 and AH-64.
> 
> It is unknown if this project is related to the stealthy attack helicopter that is slated for induction in 2020.



A pair of WZ-10s should provide more than enough power for the said。

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## Beast

Beast said:


> We have experiment helo mount radar but finds the result inferior compare to UAV fed datalink support. That is why China UAV is expanding rapidly and advancing quickly. UAV is stealthier, flys higher and has a great endurance. The combo of UAV , satelite plus attack helo proves far superior than longbow radar.
> 
> View attachment 264926
> 
> 
> The key is a modern, powerful and reliable datalink in nowadays warfare.



Apache-UAV teaming combines 'best capabilities of man, machine' | Article | The United States Army

Something interesting experience by American to prove UAV that will make longbow radar outdated. As proven why WZ-10 has not employ longbow style radar. China is moving ahead fast , using more modern UAV and gunship combo for modern anti-armour warfare. The days of having helo mount radar being rely on, is over.

@Zarvan This why PAF is so keen to quickly developed UCAV technology to support its future gunship fleet. PAF is preparing to deploy large number of WZ-10. UCAV flies higher which makes them safe from ground gun fire and less chance detected by enemy, loiter time longer. Far superior than limited longbow radar range.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Apache-UAV teaming combines 'best capabilities of man, machine' | Article | The United States Army
> 
> Something interesting experience by American to prove UAV that will make longbow radar outdated. As proven why WZ-10 has not employ longbow style radar. China is moving ahead fast , using more modern UAV and gunship combo for modern anti-armour warfare. The days of having helo mount radar being rely on, is over.
> 
> @Zarvan This why PAF is so keen to quickly developed UCAV technology to support its future gunship fleet. PAF is preparing to deploy large number of WZ-10. UCAV flies higher which makes them safe from ground gun fire and less chance detected by enemy, loiter time longer. Far superior than limited longbow radar range.



An attack helicopter having its own radar means it is less dependent on UCAV or UAV. UCAV and UAV are prone to real powerful jammer if it is remotely piloted or possibly being hacked and seized control. Unless that drone has its own A but still never rely on 1 heavily. 

WZ10 is temporary main attack helicopter until China obtain powerful heavy long range attack helicopter tech. Like type96 was the primary mbt for PLA but now, ztz99a2 would go into mass production taking over as primary mbt defending China


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## hk299792458

I heard once here an Indian forumer said that chinese helicopters pilots can't fly durang night time, so I just want to post this :






Henri K.

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## nang2

hk299792458 said:


> I heard once here an Indian forumer said that chinese helicopters pilots can't fly durang night time, so I just want to post this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.



Why don't you let them keep thinking that way? Besides, the video is in Chinese. How would they know?


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## sheik

hk299792458 said:


> I heard once here an Indian forumer said that chinese helicopters pilots can't fly durang night time, so I just want to post this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.



Losers live in their illusion until getting lost again. You are wasting your time.

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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

I have heard that this heli has very low service ceiling which isnt good of Pak Aviation cuz we need helis to counter indias LCHs on high altitude terrain like Siachen Kargil Gilgit etc etc etc is plaaf tring to increase its ceiling or will try or not?


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## Zarvan

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> I have heard that this heli has very low service ceiling which isnt good of Pak Aviation cuz we need helis to counter indias LCHs on high altitude terrain like Siachen Kargil Gilgit etc etc etc is plaaf tring to increase its ceiling or will try or not?


@Beast and @Deino and can answer this


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Zarvan said:


> @Beast and @Deino and can answer this


thanx for quoting them plus i would like to add another question that i heard that PA pilots evaluated this machine and recommended some changes for Pakistani environment/Demand i guess,what changes are suggested for finl orders if any??


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## Zarvan

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> thanx for quoting them plus i would like to add another question that i heard that PA pilots evaluated this machine and recommended some changes for Pakistani environment/Demand i guess,what changes are suggested for finl orders if any??


Changes are not serious they are change of language on computer and avinonics from Chinese to English. I hope when we order WZ-10 we order the version which is recently produced by China and is heavily upgraded. The up gradation include new engine known as WZ16 and other recent upgrades


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Zarvan said:


> Changes are not serious they are change of language on computer and avinonics from Chinese to English. I hope when we order WZ-10 we order the version which is recently produced by China and is heavily upgraded. The up gradation include new engine known as WZ16 and other recent upgrades


hmmm thanx i guess main problem is its ceiling may be engine will boost it?


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## Beast

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> I have heard that this heli has very low service ceiling which isnt good of Pak Aviation cuz we need helis to counter indias LCHs on high altitude terrain like Siachen Kargil Gilgit etc etc etc is plaaf tring to increase its ceiling or will try or not?


Where did you heard such things of low ceiling attitude? From the Indians ,right?

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## Signalian

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> I have heard that this heli has very low service ceiling which isnt good of Pak Aviation cuz we need helis to counter indias LCHs on high altitude terrain like Siachen Kargil Gilgit etc etc etc is plaaf tring to increase its ceiling or will try or not?



WZ 10 has service ceiling of 6100m. LCH has 6500m. 

But WZ-10 has an edge, it can carry more weight which means more armament. 

The density of the air at these heights is roughly 30 per cent less than that of the air at sea level. This causes a reduction in the weight that can be carried, and also the pilot's ability to manoeuvre as the radius of a turn is higher here than at lower levels. 
Also engine performance deteriorates with altitude, as for the same forward speed a smaller mass of air goes into the engine of the helicopter, compared to low altitudes.

PA wont be using WZ 10 against LCH. Its better to use WZ10 to counter insurgents first and then as Anti-tank helicopter to counter an Indian armoured thrust. 

What PA needs in Siachen, Gilgit, Skardu are more transport helicopters for troops, logistics etc.


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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> Where did you heard such things of low ceiling attitude? From the Indians ,right?


Apart from engine what other changes were made in WZ-10 recently ?



Sarge said:


> WZ 10 has service ceiling of 6100m. LCH has 6500m.
> 
> But WZ-10 has an edge, it can carry more weight which means more armament.
> 
> The density of the air at these heights is roughly 30 per cent less than that of the air at sea level. This causes a reduction in the weight that can be carried, and also the pilot's ability to manoeuvre as the radius of a turn is higher here than at lower levels.
> Also engine performance deteriorates with altitude, as for the same forward speed a smaller mass of air goes into the engine of the helicopter, compared to low altitudes.
> 
> PA wont be using WZ 10 against LCH. Its better to use WZ10 to counter insurgents first and then as Anti-tank helicopter to counter an Indian armoured thrust.
> 
> What PA needs in Siachen, Gilgit, Skardu are more transport helicopters for troops, logistics etc.


Well WZ-10 now have new engine and I think it's far more powerful than the previous one. Also we tested WZ-10 which don't have new engine but old one. Now for Siachin yes we are not going to have a dog fight of helicopters but LCH would be used against our troops we need some good weapons to counter it and also a attack helicopter to use against Indian soldiers.


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Beast said:


> Where did you heard such things of low ceiling attitude? From the Indians ,right?


yep but i was shocked as it looks so advanced and will fulfill PLAF needs but i didnt agreed with them cuz chinease arnt insane that they will produce an impotent heli.as for now i hope may be in 5-7 years God willingly it will cross american,apachies in tech


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## Beast

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> yep but i was shocked as it looks so advanced and will fulfill PLAF needs



Do not trust western or Indian source so easily. Many times they are just malicious article or insecure bashing to try boast their wounded ego. They are afraid of rising China so the only thing they can do is to rubbish any advancement of China.

Ask yourself a simple question, if WZ-10 gunship has low ceiling flight, would PAF even evaluate this gunship in the first place?

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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Beast said:


> Do not trust western or Indian source so easily. Many times they are just malicious article or insecure bashing to try boast their wounded ego. They are afraid of rising China so the only thing they can do is to rubbish any advancement of China.
> 
> Ask yourself a simple question, if WZ-10 gunship has low ceiling flight, would PAF even evaluate this gunship in the first place?


thanx for clearing my views but can u please answer that is there X2 hellis in proto or drawing board status for PLAF as fast transport or attack or combo roles like hinds?


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## hk299792458

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> thanx for quoting them plus i would like to add another question that i heard that PA pilots evaluated this machine and recommended some changes for Pakistani environment/Demand i guess,what changes are suggested for finl orders if any??



What I heard is that Pakistan requests changes on the gun (23mm to 30 mm) and on the GUI (Chinese to English).

Henri K.

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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

hk299792458 said:


> What I heard is that Pakistan requests changes on the gun (23mm to 30 mm) and on the GUI (Chinese to English).
> 
> Henri K.


hmm if its true its gonna be anti tank/Armour role most prbbly


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## cirr



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## Martian2

*Popular Science: WZ-10A attack helicopter has larger and more advanced thermal imaging sensors*

Biggest "Anti-Terrorist" Exercise in the World Stars Chinese Drones, Russian Troops and a Ukraine-Inspired Wargame | Popular Science

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## Deino

Wrong, these are simply the original older style airframes with the prototype's targeting device. All late-production models feature the standard system.

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## princefaisal

*Ordered WZ-10 helicopters shall be equipped With WZ-16 engines or WZ-9 engines?*

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## Akasa

princefaisal said:


> *Ordered WZ-10 helicopters shall be equipped With WZ-16 engines or WZ-9 engines?*



They will initially be equipped with the WZ-9. It is certainly possible that the WZ-16 (or even the more powerful WZ-10) will be added in the future.

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## nang2

princefaisal said:


> *Ordered WZ-10 helicopters shall be equipped With WZ-16 engines or WZ-9 engines?*


I have to admit, the naming is awful. WZ-9, WZ-10, WZ-16, WZ-19.... They are not in the same category of things.

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## 帅的一匹

nang2 said:


> I have to admit, the naming is awful. WZ-9, WZ-10, WZ-16, WZ-19.... They are not in the same category of things.


WZ10 helicopter named thunderbolt. WZ16 in Chinese abbreviation of Wo Zhou 16 means the 'type 16 'of Turboshaft engine.

I've got to make it clear or you guys get confused.

Wo Zhou in Chinese means Turboshaft engine.

Wu Zhi in Chinese means armed helicopter, the abbreviation is the same with Turboshaft engine.

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## Deino

and exactly that's the reason, why the Z-10 and Z-19 is *NOT* called WZ-10 or WZ-19 but simply Z-10 and Z-19. Just look what's written on the Z-10 prototype's tail.

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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> and exactly that's the reason, why the Z-10 and Z-19 is *NOT* called WZ-10 or WZ-19 but simply Z-10 and Z-19. Just look what's written on the Z-10 prototype's tail.


So if we order Z-10 now they won't be equipped with WZ16 engine


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## Deino

PS: here an image of an early prototype and I'm sure if the PLA would call it WZ-10 it surely had written that on the tail instead of Z-10 !

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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> PS: here an image of an early prototype and I'm sure if the PLA would call it WZ-10 it surely had written that on the tail instead of Z-10 !
> 
> View attachment 285473


The new WZ-16 which are in production do they have WZ16 engine or they are still being produced with older engine ? @Beast @cirr


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## Deino

Sorry, You surely meant:



> The new Z-10 which are in production do they have WZ16 engine or they are still being produced with older engine ?



As far as I know surely not yet ... the WZ-16 is a joint Sino-European program based on the Ardidden engine and was just readied for the Airbus H175 / AVIC/HAIC AC352 maybe later Z-15 ... as such I can't think that they already use this on a military type.


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## cirr

The 15th Airborne Corps‘ Z-10s

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## Deino

YES ... and look at their camouflage !

Deino


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## Deino

Just an interesting information in regard to the alleged WZ-16 use by the Z-10 or any other new Chinese helicopter.

According to the ShephardMedia (from 11/02), the new AVIC AC.352 has just begun testing the Ardiden-3C since September 2015 and here problems appeared !

Singapore Airshow: Asia revs up helo engine buys - News - Shephard

So again ... how could an operational type (= Z-10) already use an engine that is just under test for the first time in a civil helicopter and even more in the French original version of the said engine ?

Deino


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## nang2

Deino said:


> Just an interesting information in regard to the alleged WZ-16 use by the Z-10 or any other new Chinese helicopter.
> 
> According to the ShephardMedia (from 11/02), the new AVIC AC.352 has just begun testing the Ardiden-3C since September 2015 and here problems appeared !
> 
> Singapore Airshow: Asia revs up helo engine buys - News - Shephard
> 
> So again ... how could an operational type (= Z-10) already use an engine that is just under test for the first time in a civil helicopter and even more in the French original version of the said engine ?
> 
> Deino


I guess the militery usually is more willing to take risks than the civilian.


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## Deino

That might be indeed ... but how could be a licence-manufactured engine be ready if the original one hast just begun testing ?

This would be as if the WS-10 was ready before the CFM56 was certified !


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Just an interesting information in regard to the alleged WZ-16 use by the Z-10 or any other new Chinese helicopter.
> 
> According to the ShephardMedia (from 11/02), the new AVIC AC.352 has just begun testing the Ardiden-3C since September 2015 and here problems appeared !
> 
> Singapore Airshow: Asia revs up helo engine buys - News - Shephard
> 
> So again ... how could an operational type (= Z-10) already use an engine that is just under test for the first time in a civil helicopter and even more in the French original version of the said engine ?
> 
> Deino



It can be different project, as I say. Civilian version is more stringent in specification like fuel consumption, noise level and lifespan. In fact, civilian engine meeting international standard is more difficult to develop compare to military.

Turbomeca never say WZ-16 turboshaft is for Chinese military. And they are not allowed to do that.

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

Beast said:


> *Do not trust western or Indian source so easily*. Many times they are *just malicious article* or insecure bashing to try boast their wounded ego. They are afraid of rising China so the only thing they can do is to rubbish any advancement of China.
> 
> Ask yourself a simple question, if WZ-10 gunship has low ceiling flight, *would PAF even evaluate this gunship in the first place?*


Western & Indian sources also criticizes their own product e.g. F-35, LCA, F-22 you name it. May be some are malicious articles sometimes, but it's the manufacturer who should prove their product in front of the world.

Pakistan's first choice is Chinese weapons, coz of very strong friendship plus they can buy it at soft loans or long term payment options. Otherwise there are products much capable than your WZ-10 and our LCH in the market but are either expensive or Sanction prone.

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## cirr

Z-10s operational with a new unit under the Southern Theater Command

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Z-10s operational with a new unit under the Southern Theater Command




Why is this a new unit ?? Z-10s from the 6th Army Aviation Brigade (42nd GA) with LH96xxx-serials are known since some time .... or is the number 113 a hint for a second Regiment / subunit within that brigade that operates the Z-10 too ?


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Why is this a new unit ?? Z-10s from the 6th Army Aviation Brigade (42nd GA) with LH96xxx-serials are known since some time .... or is the number 113 a hint for a second Regiment / subunit within that brigade that operates the Z-10 too ?



2nd ”regiment“ indeed。

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## Deino

Thanks !


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Thanks !



The 6th brigade now has 2 Z-10 ”regiments“。

The 4th now boasts 2 Z-10 ”regiments” and 1 Z-19 ”regiment“。

Rumours have it that the 5th brigade is also starting to receive Z-10s for its 2nd “regiment”。

PS The 6th also has 1 regiment of Z-8、1 regiment of Mi-171 and 4 regiments of Z-9。

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## Shotgunner51



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## Shotgunner51

Z-19E (Export Version) Details

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## kuge

sweetgrape said:


> WZ-19 is much cheaper than WZ-10, WZ-19 combine the new technology from WZ-10 and airframe of WZ-9, WZ-19 will be manufactured in mass production.
> For PLA, the WZ-10 is expensive and more important thing is that it need time to be proven and improve.
> 
> And Frankly, I doubt that the present engine we develop can give WZ-10 encough power, I believe the new engine is on the way, but we need time, from the news be divulged indirectly, I think it will be soon!


shouldnt the heli designation different trom the heli engines for clarity? 
Z-10 to heli & WZ10 to turboshaft?


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## Basel

Shotgunner51 said:


> Z-19E (Export Version) Details
> 
> View attachment 295667
> 
> View attachment 295660
> View attachment 295661
> View attachment 295662
> View attachment 295663
> View attachment 295664
> View attachment 295665
> View attachment 295666



China should develop LCH equivalent version of Z-19 specially for high altitudes and harsh weather ops.


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## Deino

kuge said:


> shouldnt the heli designation different trom the heli engines for clarity?
> Z-10 to heli & WZ10 to turboshaft?


 

It is ... the helicopter *IS* simply the Z-10 & Z-19 and the engines are WZ-types; there is no helicopter designation WZ- ... however the media simply started some time to use the designation WZ for combat types and even if on the fuselage of the Z-10-prototypes clearly Z-10-0x was written, no-one cares about.

I think that mistake originated from the first use on the Z-9WA, which was at first called WZ-9 to differ it from the original Z-9.

Deino


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## Shotgunner51

Basel said:


> China should develop LCH equivalent version of Z-19 specially for high altitudes and harsh weather ops.




LCH? Not familiar with this. For high altitude operability I suppose Z-19 has service ceiling no less than 6 km, anyway let's reconfirm with other posters @Deino @cirr

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## Dungeness

Shotgunner51 said:


> LCH? Not familiar with this. For high altitude operability I suppose Z-19 has service ceiling no less than 6 km, anyway let's reconfirm with other posters @Deino @cirr



WZ-19 has been tested for high altitude service ceiling 8830.

央视曝武直-19直-18高原测试 突破8830米高度_军事_中华网

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## Viper0011.

Beast said:


> As if Pakistan has a choice? USA has a history of blocking spares for PAF F-16 and even failing to deliver paid F-16 to PAF for policy against US interest. PAF current Viper has also difficulties getting spare from US supplier. I do not wish to elaborate further. Our Paskistan friends has more knowledge and history of those incident.



Both you and I know that your post is wrong at all counts. The US did that to both India and Pakistan due to nuke tests. But later removed those sanctions after Pakistan worked with the US on the WOT. This is actually a lot different to what you've been doing to the Viets, the Phillipines and the list goes on. Remain factual so we can have a debate. You are bringing your personal anti-American sentiment into a discussion that doesn't call for it.

The US has never blocked any spares or sales to democratic countries, or even went to war with them. That's a fact. When they allow you to use internet freely in China, you should do some research on this topic


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## nang2

Viper0011. said:


> Both you and I know that your post is wrong at all counts. The US did that to both India and Pakistan due to nuke tests. But later removed those sanctions after Pakistan worked with the US on the WOT. This is actually a lot different to what you've been doing to the Viets, the Phillipines and the list goes on. Remain factual so we can have a debate. You are bringing your personal anti-American sentiment into a discussion that doesn't call for it.
> 
> The US has never blocked any spares or sales to democratic countries, or even went to war with them. That's a fact. When they allow you to use internet freely in China, you should do some research on this topic


If other means are available, military option is spared. Democratic countries usually present many other ways for US to intervene. Even if things don't go as well, just send in jackals to take out the trouble makers. It is a lot more difficult with non-democratic countries. Military option often is the only option.

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## Viper0011.

nang2 said:


> If other means are available, military option is spared. Democratic countries usually present many other ways for US to intervene. Even if things don't go as well, just send in jackals to take out the trouble makers. It is a lot more difficult with non-democratic countries. Military option often is the only option.



Is that a personal opinion or historical facts? The first one doesn't apply, I hope you know that!!


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## nang2

Viper0011. said:


> Is that a personal opinion or historical facts? The first one doesn't apply, I hope you know that!!


For example, the oust of elected iranian prime minister; the assassination of Ngo Dinh Nhu.

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## Viper0011.

nang2 said:


> For example, the oust of elected iranian prime minister; the assassination of Ngo Dinh Nhu.



And oppressing the entire billion people population, internet censorship, stealing trade secrets from others, the Tiananmen square........they sound familiar? I can go on and on. Not sure if you want me to  . I say you drop this stuff as we are off the topic...


Could someone post close up pictures of the WZ-19E with full weapons load? I noticed it has almost no additional armor protection underneath the cockpit. Usually there is an extra layer of armor there to protect the chassis from heavy ground fire.


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## Basel

Shotgunner51 said:


> LCH? Not familiar with this. For high altitude operability I suppose Z-19 has service ceiling no less than 6 km, anyway let's reconfirm with other posters @Deino @cirr



This is LCH and India will deploy it against China and Pakistan specially on harsh weather and high altitudes.

HAL LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) - Light Attack Helicopter - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft

China should work on low RCS high altitude all weather attack helicopter.

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## Shotgunner51

Basel said:


> This is LCH and India will deploy it against China and Pakistan specially on harsh weather and high altitudes.
> 
> HAL LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) - Light Attack Helicopter - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft
> 
> China should work on low RCS high altitude all weather attack helicopter.




Good ideas. As @Dungeness posted service ceiling of 8830 m seems fine, next is about stealth, or armor like @Viper0011. mentioned. I think a PK-CN consortium involving militaries and developers should be put in place for Z-19. Inputs from PA on Z-10 have been instrumental.



Viper0011. said:


> And oppressing the entire billion people population, internet censorship, stealing trade secrets from others, the Tiananmen square........they sound familiar? I can go on and on. Not sure if you want me to  . I say you drop this stuff as we are off the topic...
> 
> 
> Could someone post close up pictures of the WZ-19E with full weapons load? I noticed it has almost no additional armor protection underneath the cockpit. Usually there is an extra layer of armor there to protect the chassis from heavy ground fire.



Can't find for E (Export) version bro, this is PLA version (not loaded) see if that helps:

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## Zarvan

Shotgunner51 said:


> Good ideas. As @Dungeness posted service ceiling of 8830 m seems fine, next is about stealth, or armor like @Viper0011. mentioned. I think a PK-CN consortium involving militaries and developers should be put in place for Z-19. Inputs from PA on Z-10 have been instrumental.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't find for E (Export) version bro, this is PLA version (not loaded) see if that helps:
> 
> View attachment 295770
> View attachment 295771







This is WZ-19 E

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## Desertfalcon

Viper0011. said:


> Could someone post close up pictures of the WZ-19E with full weapons load? I noticed it has almost no additional armor protection underneath the cockpit. Usually there is an extra layer of armor there to protect the chassis from heavy ground fire.


Curiously, I couldn't find a single picture with full weapons load but I did find where it says it is equipped with armour plating. It definitely does not look anywhere as heavily armoured as the WZ-10.





_WZ-19E_

_




WZ-10_

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## Viper0011.

Shotgunner51 said:


> Good ideas. As @Dungeness posted service ceiling of 8830 m seems fine, next is about stealth, or armor like @Viper0011. mentioned. I think a PK-CN consortium involving militaries and developers should be put in place for Z-19. Inputs from PA on Z-10 have been instrumental.
> 
> Can't find for E (Export) version bro, this is PLA version (not loaded) see if that helps:
> 
> View attachment 295770
> View attachment 295771



Thank you. This helps. For sure, additional armor is needed. Heavy fire would cause serious damage to the chassis of this puppy as there is no extra armor cushion like I saw in WZ-9 or WZ-10. I know its a light combat heli, but it still need adequate protection as it will be used during conflict. Also, the tires and hydraulics are too open. Damaging one piece of suspension would make the entire heli out of order. So that additional piece of armor I keep mentioning, can also be used to hide a major part of the hydraulics so that even in dense fire, the suspension remains safe and the heli is able to land (and not crash land due to a broken hydraulic or tire).

Where is the machine gun on this puppy? Also, is China going to get away from a single barrel machine gun to adapting a US standard 3 or more barrel Gatling guns? Single barrel machine guns don't really produce good results in urban combat like we've seen in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.



Desertfalcon said:


> Curiously, I couldn't find a single picture with full weapons load but I did find where it says it is equipped with armour plating. It definitely does not look anywhere as heavily armoured as the WZ-10.
> _WZ-19E_
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WZ-10_



I agree. But even with WZ-9 and WZ-10, the entire hydraulic system is open to enemy fire. You take out one tire / or suspension on one side, the entire heli would have to crash land and then wait for the entire suspension to be fixed before you can fly again. The design needs to be modified and the wheels and the struts / suspension need to go underneath the chopper to avoid rendering a whole heli useless in case off heavy fire hitting the area around its tires or hydraulics.

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## lcloo

The correct designation is Z-19 and Z-10. Z-19E is the export variant.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> The correct designation is Z-19 and Z-10. Z-19E is the export variant.
> ...




Funny ... and exactly what I already posted here: CHINA'S WZ-19 ATTACK HELICOPTER | Page 10 ... and I think I also posted something similar in the Z-10 tread, however some simply does not want to give up that rumour about that nasty WZ-designation.

Deino


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## lcloo

The confusion between WZ and Z designation could be having its cause in the introductiion of WZ-9 before appearance of Z-19 and Z-10.

WZ-9 is the attack variant with different avionics and some permanent physical changes, having an addition "W" 武(combat) to its designation was necessary to differentiate it's attack role from the standard Z-9 transport helicopter. And this may had influence in many people's mind that attack or combat helicopters should be deignated WZ-XX.

However, since their first induction into PLA army aviation service, Z-19 and Z-10 have not used the "W" in their designation.

Moderators may consider changing the thread titles of WZ-19 and WZ-10 to Z-19 and Z-10.


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> The confusion between WZ and Z designation could be having its cause in the introductiion of WZ-9 before appearance of Z-19 and Z-10.
> 
> WZ-9 is the attack variant with different avionics and some permanent physical changes, having an addition "W" 武(combat) to its designation was necessary to differentiate it's attack role from the standard Z-9 transport helicopter. And this may had influence in many people's mind that attack or combat helicopters should be deignated WZ-XX.
> 
> However, since their first induction into PLA army aviation service, Z-19 and Z-10 have not used the "W" in their designation.
> 
> Moderators may consider changing the thread titles of WZ-19 and WZ-10 to Z-19 and Z-10.




Exactly what I said ... but even the WZ-9 is in fact called Z-9W/WA or WZ ... there is simply *NO* WZ-9 (only the engine), but some still keep that designation.


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## cirr

New more powerful engine for Z-10？

涡轴—16发动机项目动员会在东安召开—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Mobolization order issued for the successful completion of WZ-16 in 2016

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> New more powerful engine for Z-10？
> 
> 涡轴—16发动机项目动员会在东安召开—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看
> 
> Mobolization order issued for the successful completion of WZ-16 in 2016



What is meant by "completion"? Maiden test or production?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> What is meant by "completion"? Maiden test or production?



The former。


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## Zarvan

Two WZ-10 are participating in Pakistan day Parade. So we may have already inducted them and may be more are on order.

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## hk299792458

Henri K.

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## DANGER-ZONE

hk299792458 said:


> Henri K.



When ?


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## Deino

Most likely an old image taken during the hand-over last year.


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## cirr



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## Beast

cirr said:


>



Z-19 with wave radar act as command and eyes ,staying behind better armour Z-10. Comunicate thru datalink while the Z-10 act as spear going for the kill. That is most likely the scenario. Z-19 acting like AWACS.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Z-19 with wave radar act as command and eyes ,staying behind better armour Z-10. Comunicate thru datalink while the Z-10 act as spear going for the kill. That is most likely the scenario. Z-19 acting like AWACS.


Why Z10 can't mount the top MMR? Engine power shortage or cost concern? Will Z10 has to sacrifice weapon load if it has MMR on it?

@Mastan Khan will Pakistan army more interested in Z19 if it can carry MMR on its top and same weapon load with Z10? I think the only difference is the thickness of the protection armor.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Why Z10 can't mount the top MMR? Engine power shortage or cost concern? Will Z10 has to sacrifice weapon load if it has MMR on it?
> 
> @Mastan Khan will Pakistan army more interested in Z19 if it can carry MMR on its top and same weapon load with Z10? I think the only difference is the thickness of the protection armor.


Its not neccessary. Have you seen 10 AWACS enter fighting zone acting as command while try to dogfight at the same time?

One AWACS guide 10 other fighter to do the job. That is always the standard procedure.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Its not neccessary. Have you seen 10 AWACS enter fighting zone acting as command while try to dogfight at the same time?
> 
> One AWACS guide 10 other fighter to do the job. That is always the standard procedure.


Why Apache 64 install MMR on every of it?

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Why Apache 64 install MMR on every of it?


Do we need to follow blindly everything American has ?

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Do we need to follow blindly everything American has ?


I think it still be the problem of lower engine power output, lets looking foward Turboshaft type 16. The installation of MMR will add around 200 kg plus to the take off weight, means we need to enhance Z10 engine's HP to balance the added weight.we gonna pull it off in the near future. I wanna see every Z10 carrys MMR. Now the reason why Z19
Can carry MMR is because it replace previous Turboshaft 8c to 9A, from700 hp to 1000hp. Z10 with thicker protection armor can't carry MMR without engine performance enhancement, unless we can put better engine on it.


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## lcloo

Z-19 is testing a new mast top radar.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> View attachment 301146
> 
> 
> Z-19 is testing a new mast top radar.




Yes and no ! it is indeed testing that radar, but that image came out already in ‎Januar ‎2014.

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## Penguin

> A promotional video from Harbin has revealed the interior of the Z-19 helicopter’s mast-mounted radar.
> posted on Monday, April 18th, 2016 at 11:16


http://alert5.com/2016/04/18/inside-z-19s-mast-mounted-radar/



> The millimeter wave (MMW) fire-control radar (FCR) for Z-10 is developed by China Northern Electronic Co. (中国北方电子公司), a subsidiary of Norinco. This MMW FCR is fully solid state and fully digitized, weighing 69.5 kg, less than half of similar former Soviet system.
> 
> The Chinese MMW FCR adopts western approach of using a single antenna, similar to AN/APG-78 used for AH-64D Apache Longbow.
> The radar is designated as YH, short for Yu Huo (浴火), meaning bathing in fire. YH MMW FCR is fully integrated with other subsystems of the onboard electronic warfare system, such as radar warning receivers (RWR), laser warning receivers (LWR), electronic support measures (ESM), and electronic countermeasures (ECM), with the entire EW system on board Z-10 named after the radar.
> 
> installation of millimeter wave radar greatly improve their detection ability and fire control.
> Source: mil.huanqiu.com “Disclosure of Z-19 equipped with millimeter wave radar”


http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/01/disclosure-of-z-19-equipped-with.html#.VxZ3JkchGYA



> This MMR could enhance Z-19’s lethality and battlefield survivability by allowing the chopper to launch its Red Arrow ADK-10 ATGMs ('Chinese Hellfire') from defilade similar to what the An/APG-78 FC radar is bringing to the AH-64D Apache program.


http://china-defense.blogspot.nl/2014/01/photos-of-day-z-19s-mast-mounted-radar.html

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## Blue Marlin

*WZ-10 helicopter gunship might to have improved homemade engine*
Posted on April 3, 2016 by buffalo — No Comments ↓




According to a recent report from Qiangjiang Evening, China’s homemade helicopter gunship will hopefully have new-type homemade WZ-16 engine, which features more power than currently used WZ-9C engine, of which the power is merely about 1,000kw.

WZ-16 engine is a medium thrust engine jointly developed by AVIC and France, and will be firstly equipped on Z-15/EC175 helicopter made by China and France, which has won over 100 global orders. WZ-16 engine is expected to improve WZ-10 gunship to the same level of Apache attack helicopter.

At present, WZ-10 gunship can only hang 8 antitank guided missiles, compared to 16 of Apache.

According to famous Chinese military expert Song Zhongping, WZ-10’s maneuverability is comparable with foreign counterparts, but its armors are thinner due to limited power of engine, and this could be fatal in battles.

WZ-10 helicopter was expected to use Canada’s PT6C-67B engine with full authority digital electronic control system and 1,250kw power, but was later obstructed by U.S.

It was reported that WZ-10 helicopter also tried Russia’s VK-2500 and Ukraine’s TV3-117, but finally adopted homemade WZ-9C engine, at the expense of compromising performance.

http://www.china-arms.com/2016/04/wz-10-helicopter-gunship-might-to-have-improved-homemade-engine/

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## Akasa

Blue Marlin said:


> *WZ-10 helicopter gunship might to have improved homemade engine*
> Posted on April 3, 2016 by buffalo — No Comments ↓
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to a recent report from Qiangjiang Evening, China’s homemade helicopter gunship will hopefully have new-type homemade WZ-16 engine, which features more power than currently used WZ-9C engine, of which the power is merely about 1,000kw.
> 
> WZ-16 engine is a medium thrust engine jointly developed by AVIC and France, and will be firstly equipped on Z-15/EC175 helicopter made by China and France, which has won over 100 global orders. WZ-16 engine is expected to improve WZ-10 gunship to the same level of Apache attack helicopter.
> 
> At present, WZ-10 gunship can only hang 8 antitank guided missiles, compared to 16 of Apache.
> 
> According to famous Chinese military expert Song Zhongping, WZ-10’s maneuverability is comparable with foreign counterparts, but its armors are thinner due to limited power of engine, and this could be fatal in battles.
> 
> WZ-10 helicopter was expected to use Canada’s PT6C-67B engine with full authority digital electronic control system and 1,250kw power, but was later obstructed by U.S.
> 
> It was reported that WZ-10 helicopter also tried Russia’s VK-2500 and Ukraine’s TV3-117, but finally adopted homemade WZ-9C engine, at the expense of compromising performance.
> 
> http://www.china-arms.com/2016/04/wz-10-helicopter-gunship-might-to-have-improved-homemade-engine/



Another thing to note is that an uprated engine would provide the helicopter the capability to carry a MMW radar (allowing over-the-horizon targeting and during poor weather conditions), thicker armor plating, and an exhaust shield to suppress its IR signature.

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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> Why Apache 64 install MMR on every of it?


On the contrary, not all Apaches have radars installed.

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## Beast

Blue Marlin said:


> *WZ-10 helicopter gunship might to have improved homemade engine*
> Posted on April 3, 2016 by buffalo — No Comments ↓
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to a recent report from Qiangjiang Evening, China’s homemade helicopter gunship will hopefully have new-type homemade WZ-16 engine, which features more power than currently used WZ-9C engine, of which the power is merely about 1,000kw.
> 
> WZ-16 engine is a medium thrust engine jointly developed by AVIC and France, and will be firstly equipped on Z-15/EC175 helicopter made by China and France, which has won over 100 global orders. WZ-16 engine is expected to improve WZ-10 gunship to the same level of Apache attack helicopter.
> 
> At present, WZ-10 gunship can only hang 8 antitank guided missiles, compared to 16 of Apache.
> 
> According to famous Chinese military expert Song Zhongping, WZ-10’s maneuverability is comparable with foreign counterparts, but its armors are thinner due to limited power of engine, and this could be fatal in battles.
> 
> WZ-10 helicopter was expected to use Canada’s PT6C-67B engine with full authority digital electronic control system and 1,250kw power, but was later obstructed by U.S.
> 
> It was reported that WZ-10 helicopter also tried Russia’s VK-2500 and Ukraine’s TV3-117, but finally adopted homemade WZ-9C engine, at the expense of compromising performance.
> 
> http://www.china-arms.com/2016/04/wz-10-helicopter-gunship-might-to-have-improved-homemade-engine/


Qiangjiang evening? Another non knowledgeable Chinese military website. I believe they just copy and paste news randomly.


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## JSCh

​

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## cnleio

JSCh said:


> ​


Very beautiful & powerful ... PLA closer to U.S.A

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## cirr

Z-10? Variant?

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## Beast

cirr said:


> Z-10? Variant?


Next time, harbin can consider using engage Y-20 service to transport their prototype.

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## 艹艹艹

*Look, what is this*

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## The Sandman

A helicopter?

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## shah1398

long_ said:


> *Look, what is this*
> 
> View attachment 322618
> View attachment 322619



Seems apparently like Z-10. Compare the engine exhaust and cockpit area with the left bottom pic.


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## Blue Marlin

it looks a z-10


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## Deino

Blue Marlin said:


> it looks a z-10



It is a Z-10 ... As such threads merged.


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## lcloo

Why would they sent an air frame for, presumely, a static test? May be it is a new variant with significant changes on the structural strength. On the other hand, it could be a mockup model for commercial display?

Personally, I hope it is a navalized version with strengthened structure, meant for the rumoured new LHA/LHD amphibious assault ships.

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## cirr

The aviation arm(the 2nd Aviation Brigade) of the 13th GA becomes the latest army unit receiving Z-10s:

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## samlove

*Chinese PLAAF WZ-10 attack helicopter hard landing in rice field*

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## samlove



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## AKD

Hope everyone on that chopper wouod be okay... It might be a problem with engine


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## Deino

As far as I know this mishap already occurred some years ago - 2012 I think ?!? - and it was one of the prototypes ...

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## The Eagle

samlove said:


> *Chinese PLAAF WZ-10 attack helicopter hard landing in rice field*



Posting a link would be appreciated either this is a news or re-posting.

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## Beast

AKD said:


> Hope everyone on that chopper wouod be okay... It might be a problem with engine


Flight control malfunction. Reported by the test pilot.

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## cirr

Z-XX stealth attack helicopter in development






so says Wu Ximing, designer-in-chief, AVIC Helicopter.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Z-XX stealth attack helicopter in development
> 
> View attachment 326038
> 
> 
> so says Wu Ximing, designer-in-chief, AVIC Helicopter.



Previous reports claim that the helicopter would enter service by 2020. However, that seems to be a very unrealistic date. Did the interview reveal anything pertaining to a timeline?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Previous reports claim that the helicopter would enter service by 2020. However, that seems to be a very unrealistic date. Did the interview reveal anything pertaining to a timeline?



2020 is indeed the date mentioned in the TV programme.

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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> Previous reports claim that the helicopter would enter service by 2020. However, that seems to be a very unrealistic date. Did the interview reveal anything pertaining to a timeline?


You dont see it, doesn't it mean it dont exist. Does China military development need to report everything to you to prove anything? Or you think you have more credibility than the chief designer words?

There are large number of advance weapon which China do not wish to let the public seen tested on very secluded area in inner mongolia. What you can seen online by leaker is all approved by PLA. Those not approved you will not seen but only read about it. But you dont see it doesn't mean the prototype not exist and not under test now. 2020 in facts sound too long. I expect earlier like 2018 to enter service.

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## Akasa

Beast said:


> You dont see it, doesn't it mean it dont exist. Does China military development need to report everything to you to prove anything? Or you think you have more credibility than the chief designer words?
> 
> There are large number of advance weapon which China do not wish to let the public seen tested on very secluded area in inner mongolia. What you can seen online by leaker is all approved by PLA. Those not approved you will not seen but only read about it. But you dont see it doesn't mean the prototype not exist and not under test now. 2020 in facts sound too long. I expect earlier like 2018 to enter service.



A weapon as complex as an armed helicopter needs years for weapons integration, test flight, any in-house improvements if needed, and finally military evaluation. Achieving all that by 2018, much less without a single prototype built, is nothing short of fantasy.

The notion that a next-generation helicopter would be kept under wraps whilst the J-20/Sharp Sword/Divine Eagle are well known in public circles is ridiculous and unrealistic.


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> A weapon as complex as an armed helicopter needs years for weapons integration, test flight, any in-house improvements if needed, and finally military evaluation. Achieving all that by 2018, much less without a single prototype built, is nothing short of fantasy.
> 
> The notion that a next-generation helicopter would be kept under wraps whilst the J-20/Sharp Sword/Divine Eagle are well known in public circles is ridiculous and unrealistic.



You know nothing of Chinese military development. I guess you better shut up. PLA is selective of what they want to show to public of its development and what not. It can be easy keep under wrap if they want to given China is so big and vast area of secluded area. 

http://www.popsci.com/chinese-hypersonic-engine-wins-award-reshapes-speed-race

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## Akasa

Beast said:


> You know nothing of Chinese military development. I guess you better shut up. PLA is selective of what they want to show to public of its development and what not. It can be easy keep under wrap if they want to given China is so big and vast area of secluded area.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/chinese-hypersonic-engine-wins-award-reshapes-speed-race



Instead of running to _ad hominem_ attacks, why don't you attempt to ponder why Chinese censors decided to let through the J-20 rather than a notional next-generation helicopter?

It's one thing to exhibit optimism; it's another to have your head stuck in the clouds.


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> Instead of running to _ad hominem_ attacks, why don't you attempt to ponder why Chinese censors decided to let through the J-20 rather than a notional next-generation helicopter?
> 
> It's one thing to exhibit optimism; it's another to have your head stuck in the clouds.



Why not you join CPC and maybe they will tell you the answer. Why not you answer my link provide of the screamjet reusable UAV flown but you wouldn't even see a clear photo of it. But you can continue denied such project dont exist just becos you wouldn't even see a physical photo of it.. And the awards to the scientist is probably a smokescreen to confuse you? 

I dont based my conclusion on optimism like Indian. I based my conclusion on real strength of China technology advancement but a lot of westerner continued to live in denial.

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## Zarvan

China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has now equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) WZ-10 (also known as Z-10) attack helicopters, the China Military Online (ChinaMil) website reported on 8 September.

Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA's 13th Group Army under the Western Theatre Command, meaning that all of the army's aviation units now have the aircraft, the website quoted the PLA's TV news channel as saying.

Moreover, Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, was quoted as saying that all of China's group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.




To read the full article, Client Login
(114 of 281 words)

http://www.janes.com/article/63539/...ts-now-equipped-with-wz-10-attack-helicopters

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has now equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) WZ-10 (also known as Z-10) attack helicopters, the China Military Online (ChinaMil) website reported on 8 September.
> 
> Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA's 13th Group Army under the Western Theatre Command, meaning that all of the army's aviation units now have the aircraft, the website quoted the PLA's TV news channel as saying.
> 
> Moreover, Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, was quoted as saying that all of China's group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (114 of 281 words)
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/63539/...ts-now-equipped-with-wz-10-attack-helicopters



From that we can estimate how many WZ-10 gunship has enter service for PLA. It seems producing like hotcakes within a few short years and all armies group has one WZ-10 gunship regiment. That exclude WZ-19 and Z-9G. If number all added up, its a huge number of gunship in service.

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## Papa Dragon

Credit should be given where it is due. One thing good about the Chinese or communists is they take decisions and implement them much faster than the time taken to decide or plan.


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## IblinI

Papa Dragon said:


> Credit should be given where it is due. One thing good about the Chinese or communists is they take decisions and implement them much faster than the time taken to decide or plan.


It was one of the main reason why communist party won the civil war.

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## ahojunk

Army gets advanced, new combat helicopters
(China Daily) 10:44, September 08, 2016






_*WZ-10 combat helicopters are displayed during the China Helicopter Exposition held in Tainjin in 2013. [Provided to China Daily]*_​
*Choppers designed for anti-tank missions, now also have air-to-air fighting capability*

The People's Liberation Army has equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced WZ-10 combat helicopters, according to PLA media.

Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA 13th Group Army under the Western Theater Command, the military's TV news channel reported.

This means that all of the Army's aviation units now have this advanced attack helicopter, the report said.

The deliveries also marked the 30th anniversary of the establishment of the Army's aviation force and opened a new chapter in the force's development, it added.

The Army's aviation wing was formed in October 1986 with a regiment equipped with a combination of domestically manufactured helicopters with old technologies and a few imported advanced ones.

For more than two decades, the backbone of the PLA's attack helicopter teams was formed by the WZ-9, which was developed based on the French Eurocopter Dolphin. The Army did not have a dedicated combat helicopter until 2011, when the first WZ-10s were believed to have entered service with the PLA.

Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, told the news channel all of the group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.

According to a military white paper released in 2013, the PLA Army had 18 group armies at the time, but it is unclear if some of these have been merged or disbanded during troop cuts introduced at the start of this year.

The WZ-10 is developed and produced by Changhe Aircraft Industries Group, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China, the country's leading aircraft manufacturer. It made its public debut in November 2012 at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as the Zhuhai Air Show.

Aviation industry sources said the helicopter was designed primarily for anti-tank missions, but now has a secondary air-to-air combat capability.

Wu Ximing, chief designer of the helicopter at Changhe Aircraft Industries, said the WZ-10 has superior maneuverability and combat compatibility compared with the WZ-9, although it is a little bit weaker in terms of engine capacity, ammunition-carrying ability and firepower.

Wu Peixin, an aviation analyst in Beijing, said the PLA Army now has a strong force of dedicated combat helicopters thanks to the service of the WZ-10 and WZ-19, another attack helicopter that is less powerful than the WZ-10.

"The Army now needs more medium-lift, multipurpose helicopters such as the US Army's Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk," he said. "This helicopter is capable of performing both combat operations and transport tasks."

Gao Zhuo, a military observer in Shanghai, said the PLA Army needs at least 3,000 helicopters, especially heavy-lift transport types and multipurpose models.

Western defense publications speculate that the PLA Army's aviation force has nearly 1,000 helicopters.

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## ahojunk

Army gets advanced, new combat helicopters
(China Daily) 10:44, September 08, 2016





_*WZ-10 combat helicopters are displayed during the China Helicopter Exposition held in Tainjin in 2013. [Provided to China Daily]*_​
*Choppers designed for anti-tank missions, now also have air-to-air fighting capability*

The People's Liberation Army has equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced WZ-10 combat helicopters, according to PLA media.

Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA 13th Group Army under the Western Theater Command, the military's TV news channel reported.

This means that all of the Army's aviation units now have this advanced attack helicopter, the report said.

The deliveries also marked the 30th anniversary of the establishment of the Army's aviation force and opened a new chapter in the force's development, it added.

The Army's aviation wing was formed in October 1986 with a regiment equipped with a combination of domestically manufactured helicopters with old technologies and a few imported advanced ones.

For more than two decades, the backbone of the PLA's attack helicopter teams was formed by the WZ-9, which was developed based on the French Eurocopter Dolphin. The Army did not have a dedicated combat helicopter until 2011, when the first WZ-10s were believed to have entered service with the PLA.

Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, told the news channel all of the group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.

According to a military white paper released in 2013, the PLA Army had 18 group armies at the time, but it is unclear if some of these have been merged or disbanded during troop cuts introduced at the start of this year.

The WZ-10 is developed and produced by Changhe Aircraft Industries Group, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China, the country's leading aircraft manufacturer. It made its public debut in November 2012 at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as the Zhuhai Air Show.

Aviation industry sources said the helicopter was designed primarily for anti-tank missions, but now has a secondary air-to-air combat capability.

Wu Ximing, chief designer of the helicopter at Changhe Aircraft Industries, said the WZ-10 has superior maneuverability and combat compatibility compared with the WZ-9, although it is a little bit weaker in terms of engine capacity, ammunition-carrying ability and firepower.

Wu Peixin, an aviation analyst in Beijing, said the PLA Army now has a strong force of dedicated combat helicopters thanks to the service of the WZ-10 and WZ-19, another attack helicopter that is less powerful than the WZ-10.

"The Army now needs more medium-lift, multipurpose helicopters such as the US Army's Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk," he said. "This helicopter is capable of performing both combat operations and transport tasks."

Gao Zhuo, a military observer in Shanghai, said the PLA Army needs at least 3,000 helicopters, especially heavy-lift transport types and multipurpose models.

Western defense publications speculate that the PLA Army's aviation force has nearly 1,000 helicopters.

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## 52051

China is a little bit late to join this party and with the arriving of UAV/drones, I think this party is about over.


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## Pathan khan

What is status of Pakistan army aviatition acquisation of 20 z10s


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## Incog_nito

When will China going to transfer more parts to Pakistan for completing the total no. of Z-10s to 20-30?

I think China must also think of supplying for free another 20-30 Z-10 Block-II to Pakistan.

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## Deino

Oxair Online said:


> When will China going to transfer more parts to Pakistan for completing the total no. of Z-10s to 20-30?
> 
> I think China must also think of supplying for free another 20-30 Z-10 Block-II to Pakistan.




Honestly, why do You guys think China always has to supply for free ???

Yes, there is a certain special relationship, but that does not mean Pakistan has a right or China a need to deliver for free ... not even the UK get their F-35 for free from the US.

Seems as if a few fan-boys are still in their infancy.

Deino

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## Incog_nito

Deino said:


> Honestly, why do You guys think China always has to supply for free ???
> 
> Yes, there is a certain special relationship, but that does not mean Pakistan has a right or China a need to deliver for free ... not even the UK get their F-35 for free from the US.
> 
> Seems as if a few fan-boys are still in their infancy.
> 
> Deino


Pakistan is giving China an opportunity to earn and save a Trillions from CPEC. Pakistan, don't have money now and China should support Pakistan in this regards.


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## zestokryl

Lets face it, China is so economically strong, it could easily supply Pakistan, with tens of Z 10 s and J 10 s, free of charge or with some symbolical price , even if wanted to

Objective issue is engines power output, which is probably not sufficient, for mission with full weapon pack in mountainous areas. When is this problem going to be bypassed , anyway ...


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## Deino

Another image of these Z-10H pre-serials ...

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## yusheng

z10 in PLA AIRFORCE, more coloured than in PLA LANDFORCE.


http://jz.chinamil.com.cn/jssp/content/2016-03/25/content_6976457.htm

z10 showed on Pakistan national day

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## yusheng



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## yusheng



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## yusheng



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## Incog_nito

PAA needs Z-10s..


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## Deino

yusheng said:


> View attachment 335460
> 
> z10 in PLA AIRFORCE, more coloured than in PLA LANDFORCE.



Indeed ... a Z-10K assigned to the 15. Airborne Corps













Oxair Online said:


> PAA needs Z-10s..



Then they should simply buy them !

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Indeed ... a Z-10K assigned to the 15. Airborne Corps
> 
> View attachment 335514
> View attachment 335515
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then they should simply buy them !


That means the black coat is not RCS reduction coating at all.


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## grey boy 2

cockpit of Z-10

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## hk299792458

grey boy 2 said:


> cockpit of Z-10



Those two are cockpit of prototype.

The serial one is as follows :











Henri K.

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## Beast

It will be joke if real operation Z-10 cockpit is that first picture show by grey boy.


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## royalharris

Oxair Online said:


> Pakistan is giving China an opportunity to earn and save a Trillions from CPEC. Pakistan, don't have money now and China should support Pakistan in this regards.


It is funny,free?


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## ConcealCarry

No one expects that, these kind of troll posts are usually done by indian members disguised as Pakistanis.




Deino said:


> Honestly, why do You guys think China always has to supply for free ???
> 
> Yes, there is a certain special relationship, but that does not mean Pakistan has a right or China a need to deliver for free ... not even the UK get their F-35 for free from the US.
> 
> Seems as if a few fan-boys are still in their infancy.
> 
> Deino

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## WarFariX

What is the progress on WZ-16 engine?


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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Does anyone have this image a bit bigger ???


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## yusheng

just waite several more days, you will have lots of its pictures, it is simplified z10 for PLAA, is goint to show on zhuhai next month.

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## Deino

yusheng said:


> View attachment 345873
> 
> 
> just waite several more days, you will have lots of its pictures, it is simplified z10 for PLAA, is goint to show on zhuhai next month.




Yes I noted that the K-model will appear at Zhuhai too ... but why is the K a simplified version? I thought it is an improved one!

Deino


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## yusheng

z10 in PLAL is for other attact heli, tank and other hard surface target, but the aim of z10 in PLAA is not known yet,
maybe after a week.

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## lcloo

I believe roles of Z10K in air force services would be (1) provide escort protection to rescue helicopters sent to hostile area to evacuate downed pilots, (2) patrol and perimeter defence around airfields, SAM sites and other air force sites, against enemy ground attacks.

I agree that it would not be given tank destroyer role, though I hope it retains this capability.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> I believe roles of Z10K in air force services would be (1) provide escort protection to rescue helicopters sent to hostile area to evacuate downed pilots, (2) patrol and perimeter defence around airfields, SAM sites and other air force sites, against enemy ground attacks.
> 
> I agree that it would not be given tank destroyer role, though I hope it retains this capability.




Thanks, indeed an argument and explanation ... however I think they are technically build to the same standard (aka they retain this capability) even if their operational role might be different.

Deino


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## yusheng

three z10 in PK

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## Beast

Maybe the new Z-10 HMS has the function to record the whole mission action like Gopro video camera.

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## Zarvan

Last year an improved Z-10 (Z-10K) was under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an 
> improved targeting system with an additional sensor behind the PVDS.
> New 23mm gun.
> Possibly upgraded engines.
> It also carries new 19-tube rocket launchers (70mm) similar to American M261 for a bigger fire power against ground targets.
However the success of this project will depend on the availability of a powerful engine.

How long will it take for WZ-16 to be fully ready ???


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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> Last year an improved Z-10 (Z-10K) was under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an
> > improved targeting system with an additional sensor behind the PVDS.
> > New 23mm gun.
> > Possibly upgraded engines.
> > It also carries new 19-tube rocket launchers (70mm) similar to American M261 for a bigger fire power against ground targets.
> However the success of this project will depend on the availability of a powerful engine.
> 
> How long will it take for WZ-16 to be fully ready ???


There are no engine problem for Z-10. May I know where did you get this rubbish sources of news.

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## Deino

Has anyone these two images in full-size ???


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## yusheng



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## Deino

That made my day !!!


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## grey boy 2

A beautiful picture of Z-10 attack helicopter

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## yusheng



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## WarFariX

Beast said:


> There are no engine problem for Z-10. May I know where did you get this rubbish sources of news.


@Zarvan doesnt mean that current engine is weak or rubbish rather that engine doesnt support pakistans high altitude needs and wz16 is what will fulfill our needs

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## Beast

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Zarvan doesnt mean that current engine is weak or rubbish rather that engine doesnt support pakistans high altitude needs and wz16 is what will fulfill our needs


There is no report on PA side on Z-10 lacking in high attitude capabilties. Plus China has a highest peak near India border. I doubt Z-10 will be lacking in this area. The part about Z-10 weak engine first started by some dodgy Chinese article in Chinese forum and pick up by CDF as side bible and spread like nonsense. There is no official comfirmation abt Z-10 underpowered or lacking in this area.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> There is no report on PA side on Z-10 lacking in high attitude capabilties. Plus China has a highest peak near India border. I doubt Z-10 will be lacking in this area. The part about Z-10 weak engine first started by some dodgy Chinese article in Chinese forum and pick up by CDF as side bible and spread like nonsense. There is no official comfirmation abt Z-10 underpowered or lacking in this area.




But there's so far also *NO* report that the Z-10 or any version uses already a WZ-16 and - at least as far as I know - do we have reports about the Z-10 already being tested at that altitude in Tibet ??


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## Beast

Deino said:


> But there's so far also *NO* report that the Z-10 or any version uses already a WZ-16 and - at least as far as I know - do we have reports about the Z-10 already being tested at that altitude in Tibet ??


Do PLA needs to report everything to you? You are funny that to claim everything needs black and white to be see by Deino and be claim as truth?

Then have we seen a J-20 ejection seat being demonstrated? If no, so we shall assume J-20 ejection can't be ejected and the pilot will go down with the plane once the plane is malfunction?

Same as DF-5 MIRV, we have not seen a D-5 MIRV live video. So we can assume when V-day 2015 China PLA announce to world their DF-5 with MIRV is probably fake as no video and evidence is presented to Deino to be verify and comfirmed, right?

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## Deino

No, the PLA does not have to report to me but it surely does not report to You either ?
In contrast to You however I never said I know everything and I even admit my mistakes, faults and errors, but not everything that is not confirmed has not necessarily to be true only since YOU want so.
So by that logic, the Chinese were already on Mars, but they simply did not report to us.

In reverse, may I remind You on all of *@beasts *claims his year ... and then let's do a fact-check?

- J-10B + AL-31FN is never operational
- J-20 uses WS-10G
- Y-20 uses WS-18
- Y-20 will be take part on Aviadarts exercise with Russia
- China will never purchase any Russian engines any more
- ...

Shall I continue ??

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## Beast

Deino said:


> No, the PLA does not have to report to me but it surely does not report to You either ?
> In contrast to You however I never said I know everything and I even admit my mistakes, faults and errors, but not everything that is not confirmed has not necessarily to be true only since YOU want so.
> So by that logic, the Chinese were already on Mars, but they simply did not report to us.
> 
> In reverse, may I remind You on all of *@beasts *claims his year ... and then let's do a fact-check?
> 
> - J-10B + AL-31FN is never operational
> - J-20 uses WS-10G
> - Y-20 uses WS-18
> - Y-20 will be take part on Aviadarts exercise with Russia
> - China will never purchase any Russian engines any more
> - ...
> 
> Shall I continue ??


You claimed J-15 never uses use high thrust AL-31 FM3 series engine but when I challenged you on J-20, you suddenly flip flop and claim AL-31FM3 series engine suddenly exported to J-20. Use twisted theory just to suit your agenda!

You claim aerospace knowledge author who enjoy close ties with PLAAF report of 135 L-15 in service is by Deino who later rejected yourself? So you admit or reject? Why are you flip flopping repeatly?

Y-20 uses WS-18, do you have prove to rebuke it?

J-20 uses definitely not AL-31 engine. Just becos, one external petal looks like mean it is? Then HQ-2J missile looks like Russia SA-7, so inside is all the same component of SA-7 and is actually a SA-7?

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## Deino

Ohhh @Beast again ... reading is not Your virtue !? Isn't it?



Beast said:


> 1. You claimed J-15 never uses use high thrust AL-31 FM3 series engine but when I challenged you on J-20, you suddenly flip flop and claim AL-31FM3 series engine suddenly exported to J-20. Use twisted theory just to suit your agenda!
> 
> 2. You claim aerospace knowledge author who enjoy close ties with PLAAF report of 135 L-15 in service is by Deino who later rejected yourself? So you admit or reject? Why are you flip flopping repeatly?
> 
> 3. Y-20 uses WS-18, do you have prove to rebuke it?
> 
> 4. J-20 uses definitely not AL-31 engine. Just becos, one external petal looks like mean it is? Then HQ-2J missile looks like Russia SA-7, so inside is all the same component of SA-7 and is actually a SA-7?



Just in short since it is off-topic:

1. I never claimed the J-15 uses an FM3 - that was You - and also, following this new theory (which in fact was not mine but from a Big Shrimp ! if You remember correctly) it is uses an FM-2-bsed design. Any way good weather in Germany does not mean good weather in China, so an FM2 on the J-20 is irrelevant to a standard F on the J-15.

The issue again is simply: for the J-20's MF2-connection, there's a report, rumours ... but for the WZ-16 operational or the FM3 used by the J-15 not.

2. again wrong: The fact that I published so far two reports on Aerospace Knowledge does not mean I'm responsible or related to the author who claimed 135 JL-10s are already delivered.

3. again like the China-on-Mars-theory: Do You have proof that it uses ?? All reports - even from AVIC - say it uses an "imported" engine.

4. And this latest report from that Big shrimp - surely much, much more reliable than me - is wrong ?? But You are surely correct: Chinese engineers made the WS-10GX-37's pedals look exactly like an AL-31FN only to fool the stupid foreigners. 


By the way, concerning Your reliability:
https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-j-10-fc-20-multirole-fighter-air-craft.3218/page-542#post-8853360


But I will make it short: I will from now on immediately delete each and every stupid post from You that simply claims anything without a proof ! If You say: "That is my opinion based on this and that rumour", then it's fine ... since so it is not a fact. 

Even more each and every blatant lie from You, any personnel accusations in regard to other opinions´s, other nationalities especially if baked with a source and bashing will immediately be rated as a negative rating.

I think in mind of You history here I need to keep it simple for You.

Deino

And now back to the Z-10 ....give any proof or at least report that it uses the claimed high-power WZ-16 already or shut up.

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## cirr

A photo of great interest taken on 25.10.2016 at AVIC Changhe







21 Academicians of Chinese Academy of Engineering 






Taking a site visit

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## grey boy 2



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## yusheng



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## muhammadali233

yusheng said:


> View attachment 352547
> View attachment 352548
> View attachment 352549
> View attachment 352550


The main difference i can spot between PAA Zulu's and Chinese Zulu's is that the PLAA's zulus don't have the Armour tub for pilot protection and secondly PLAA's zulus is not fielding HMDS,at least in the pics posted above.

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## cirr

A batch of new aircrafts, including a helicopter that exceeds the Z-10 by a large margin in terms of complexity and sophistication, will make their debuts in 2017 and/or 2018

http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/ ... t_355528.htm?div=-1

Being an article about matters of great significance, the info on new aircrafts was mentioned in passing only at the very end.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> A batch of new aircrafts, including a helicopter that exceeds the Z-10 by a large margin in terms of complexity and sophistication, will make their debuts in 2017 and/or 2018
> 
> http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/ ... t_355528.htm?div=-1
> 
> Being an article about matters of great significance, the info on new aircrafts was mentioned in passing only at the very end.



What makes you think this new helicopter is a new gunship, especially the one said to enter service by 2020?


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> What makes you think this new helicopter is a new gunship, especially the one said to enter service by 2020?


Becos we can read Chinese article and you cannot. The last sentence mention that.

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## cirr

Beast said:


> Becos we can read Chinese article and you cannot. The last sentence mention that.

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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> What makes you think this new helicopter is a new gunship, especially the one said to enter service by 2020?


I suggest you all who don't understand Chinese or can't speak Chinese show some respect to cirr. I have stay in PDF for quite a few years and see his contribution to PDF by translating many Chinese article accurately for non Chinese speaking members to share from some highly credible Chinese speaking forum. Many of his translation is spot on like 055 cruiser and LRIP J-20.

Instead of using those rude tone and skeptical view to question his translation. Please use 'please' or 'would you mind share where is your source?' to ask or verify with him. Cirr is a highly valuable contributor to PDF Chinese defense section. Unless you all know Chinese, if you do not know. You are not qualify to question his contribution of translation in PDF.

@cirr @ChineseTiger1986

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## grey boy 2

Z-10 compared to Z-10K (从正面看Z-10与Z-10K差异不大，二者均配备了新型23mm航炮，只是Z-10K着迷彩涂装，机头两侧雷达告警天线下方的盒状多普勒导弹逼近告警天线被取消。另外Z-10K携挂的新型19管70mm火箭发射巢（类似米军的M261）也较引人注目。)

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## Deino

Beast said:


> I suggest you all who don't understand Chinese or can't speak Chinese show some respect to cirr. I have stay in PDF for quite a few years and see his contribution to PDF by translating many Chinese article accurately for non Chinese speaking members to share from some highly credible Chinese speaking forum. Many of his translation is spot on like 055 cruiser and LRIP J-20.
> 
> Instead of using those rude tone and skeptical view to question his translation. Please use 'please' or 'would you mind share where is your source?' to ask or verify with him. Cirr is a highly valuable contributor to PDF Chinese defense section. Unless you all know Chinese, if you do not know. You are not qualify to question his contribution of translation in PDF.
> 
> @cirr @ChineseTiger1986




Why do You took this as offence against cirr ?? 
IMO it was a plain a simple question surely not connected with the humble You prefer like 'please' or 'would you mind to share your source?" ... but honestly, since You never use such words nor show such a politeness or courtesy especially against members who cannot read Chinese, since You barely give any sources or add Your claims with phrases like "IMO", "I think that" or "based on the info I have via..." I'm indeed surprised.


Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Why do You took this as offence against cirr ??
> IMO it was a plain a simple question surely not connected with the humble You prefer like 'please' or 'would you mind to share your source?" ... but honestly, since You never use such words nor show such a politeness or courtesy especially against members who cannot read Chinese, since You barely give any sources or add Your claims with phrases like "IMO", "I think that" or "based on the info I have via..." I'm indeed surprised.
> 
> 
> Deino


it will depend whether that person earn the respect. We have been watching Chinese military development for years and not based on just one conclusion or just started. We watch PLA grow from a 80s armed forces into a sophisticated 3G modern armed that can fought from deep sea to outer space. We have watch Chinese military hardware from buying Israel harpy drone to nowadays exporting fully autonomous large payload long endurance CH-5 UCAV that is sought by many countries.

We watched countless video including many direct interview of the chief designers of the project. Or even director of CASIC, AVIC, Shenyang and Hongdu or even NORINCO. If you think director , high ranking official or chief designer of those hardware words are not credible or simply just becos they are not speaking English that makes their word not credible. Clearly a racist agenda is present. How many Chinese words do you understand from Yang wei or Wu Ximing interview? Zero.

The possibilities are draw from these little clues and info slowly string up. Not based on just hearsay or Tom dick Harry sources.

You foreigner are simply too ignorant on all these. And insists everything need to base on English sources and article to prove it's credibility. I simply find that a joke!

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## Deino

Beast said:


> it will depend whether that person earn the respect. We have been watching Chinese military development for years and not based on just one conclusion or just started. We watch PLA grow from a 80s armed forces into a sophisticated 3G modern armed that can fought from deep sea to outer space. We have watch Chinese military hardware from buying Israel harpy drone to nowadays exporting fully autonomous large payload long endurance CH-5 UCAV that is sought by many countries.
> 
> We watched countless video including many direct interview of the chief designers of the project. Or even director of CASIC, AVIC, Shenyang and Hongdu or even NORINCO. If you think director , high ranking official or chief designer of those hardware words are not credible or simply just becos they are not speaking English that makes their word not credible. Clearly a racist agenda is present. How many Chinese words do you understand from Yang wei or Wu Ximing interview? Zero.
> 
> The possibilities are draw from these little clues and info slowly string up. Not based on just hearsay or Tom dick Harry sources.
> 
> You foreigner are simply too ignorant on all these. And insists everything need to base on English sources and article to prove it's credibility. I simply find that a joke!




We ?? .. or You ? May I ask how old are You, so to better judge who's watching Chinese military development for longer?

And again, the one who's arrogant is plain and simply You, since You again make false accusations and even if capable to READ Chinese, You often enough made so wrong claims that it seems YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND what You read.

By the way - Your next major mistake - I (or we like You say) do not rely on Western or English sources, but indeed on Chinese ones, which were kindly translated by some very honourable and respectful people here. So even if I don't have the original text at hand, I fully understand the meaning of such translated original sources.

As such You are correct: One has to earn his reputation and others respect ... but the one is surely not You.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> We ?? .. or You ? May I ask how old are You, so to better judge who's watching Chinese military development for longer?
> 
> And again, the one who's arrogant is plain and simply You, since You again make false accusations and even if capable to READ Chinese, You often enough made so wrong claims that it seems YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND what You read.
> 
> By the way - Your next major mistake - I (or we like You say) do not rely on Western or English sources, but indeed on Chinese ones, which were kindly translated by some very honourable and respectful people here. So even if I don't have the original text at hand, I fully understand the meaning of such translated original sources.
> 
> As such You are correct: One has to earn his reputation and others respect ... but the one is surely not You.


Lol. You don't deserve respect. Can't speak Chinese and rely on others? How many words are lose out in final translation, do they even make every single words of translation? There are simply too much info only a native speaking can decipher it themselves. You make so many mistakes. Simply dismiss credible sources. Rely mainly on photo only and hearsay from who? 

I don't need your respect. Your credibility is zero. cant speak Chinese to understand important words from chief designer and brag as if you know? Do you understand the latest interview from yang wei interview abt J-20 from zhuhai 2016? He mention something quite critical or crucial which is for listeners to decipher.

That is the kind of thing you will never understand. Foreigner!


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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Thanks again for Your reply and even more Your translation ... but as far as I know this image is only a place-holder, some sort of what-if made by a fan and not a reliable representation of the real bird ?

Are there any info already available in regard to its configuration ?

Deino


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/802098998857199616


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Thanks again for Your reply and even more Your translation ... but as far as I know this image is only a place-holder, some sort of what-if made by a fan and not a reliable representation of the real bird ?
> 
> Are there any info already available in regard to its configuration ?
> 
> Deino
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/802098998857199616



It is rumoured to be an enlarged "Comanche" like copter capable of over 700km/h





Illustration only

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## Deino

Thank You so much ... not to start another flame war, but given the former cooperation / development contract with Kamov and this coaxial-configuration, how likely is a cooperation again ?

Deino


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> It is rumoured to be an enlarged "Comanche" like copter capable of over 700km/h
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illustration only



Thank you. Any idea what weight class to which this helicopter belongs?


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## dingyibvs

Beast said:


> Becos we can read Chinese article and you cannot. The last sentence mention that.



No it doesn't. It just says "复杂程度远超武直-10的直升机", which means a new helicopter that's much more complex than the Z-10. It says nothing about whether it'll be an attack helicopter. Incidentally, that's exactly how cirr translated it as well.

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## The Eagle

grey boy 2 said:


>


In first GIF (1st frame) and 5th GIF (!st & 2nd Frame), it looks like too much bumpy?


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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter firing AKD-9 air to ground missiles that can penetrate 300mm armor (解放军31集团军陆航部队近日进行实弹打靶训练，媒体拍摄的视频中展示了武直10武装直升机发射各式武器，其中AKD-9对地导弹可以击穿300mm均值装甲。)

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Z-10 attack helicopter firing AKD-9 air to ground missiles that can penetrate 300mm armor (解放军31集团军陆航部队近日进行实弹打靶训练，媒体拍摄的视频中展示了武直10武装直升机发射各式武器，其中AKD-9对地导弹可以击穿300mm均值装甲。)



Only 300 mm? The land-based HJ-9 variant supposedly can penetrate up to 1200 mm of RHA.


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## cirr

Interesting

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Interesting



It's just another Z-10. What's interesting about it?


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807540925450874880

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

ZW-16 turbo shaft engine to be the new heart for Z-10 attack helicopter next (直10可换心！中法合研AC352将首飞或装涡轴16)

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## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

@Zarvan


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## DESERT FIGHTER

*Its called "Zulu" by Pak army ...

Being tested by Cobra pilots.. This officer also tested the T-129;
*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Another one

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## Tiqiu

The 1000th helicopter was handed to the PLA.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> The 1000th helicopter was handed to the PLA.
> View attachment 362838




But wasn't this already in August !???

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> But wasn't this already in August !???



Well, maybe there were some retirement, etc?


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## Deino

Z-10 production line ...

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## grey boy 2

陆航2旅Z-10

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## S10

First known crash of WZ-10 just occurred. It was a night training flight and judging from the power outage , the chopper might have hit a power line and went down into the houses down below. Lots of fire trucks and ambulances on site, so I think there may have been civilian casualties as well.


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## pzkilo

S10 said:


> First known crash of WZ-10 just occurred. It was a night training flight and judging from the power outage , the chopper might have hit a power line and went down into the houses down below. Lots of fire trucks and ambulances on site, so I think there may have been civilian casualties as well.


U sure it is WZ-10? Somebody said it's Z-9.


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## fanna4paf2

i really want to see this in big number in pakistan


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## 帅的一匹

S10 said:


> First known crash of WZ-10 just occurred. It was a night training flight and judging from the power outage , the chopper might have hit a power line and went down into the houses down below. Lots of fire trucks and ambulances on site, so I think there may have been civilian casualties as well.


Did the pilotes survive? I don't care the hell, all I care is pilotes life!

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## The Eagle

S10 said:


> First known crash of WZ-10 just occurred. It was a night training flight and judging from the power outage , the chopper might have hit a power line and went down into the houses down below. Lots of fire trucks and ambulances on site, so I think there may have been civilian casualties as well.



Hopefully, no life is lost....


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## monitor

The Eagle said:


> Hopefully, no life is lost....



@*xinfengcao* @*CombatAir* First conf. PLA Army Z-10 crash: yesterday a Z-10 (10th LH Brig ?) crashed at Jieshanzhen *killing both pilots. R.I.P*

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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> Did the pilotes survive? I don't care the hell, all I care is pilotes life!


No both pilots sadly didn't make it.


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## The Eagle

monitor said:


> @*xinfengcao* @*CombatAir* First conf. PLA Army Z-10 crash: yesterday a Z-10 (10th LH Brig ?) crashed at Jieshanzhen *killing both pilots. R.I.P*





S10 said:


> No both pilots sadly didn't make it.



Tragic moment... sad to hear about the same... My condolences to the grieved families and all....

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## 帅的一匹

S10 said:


> No both pilots sadly didn't make it.


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## grey boy 2

How many Z-10 attack helicopters in the picture? (满天都是武直10！中国陆航展现大规模直升机群)

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## monitor

Z-10 maintenance

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> How many Z-10 attack helicopters in the picture? (满天都是武直10！中国陆航展现大规模直升机群)


Totally 85 armed helis in the picture.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830057072360316928

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## Deino

Z-10 onboard LPD Yimengshan 988 in amphibious landing exercise ...







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/842384842159357952

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## lcloo

A prelude to the formation of PLAN Marine aviation attack helicopters and construction of helicopter carriers or LHA.

I wonder if they will transfer some existing army Z10s to the PLAN Marine when several army brigades change their uniform to that of marines.

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## grey boy 2

A couple of old pictures from the 1st flight dated back to (4/29/2003) dedicated to the "14th" anniversary of our Z-10 attack helicopter(2003年4月29日武直-10武装直升机首飞成功，14年弹指一挥间，武直-10如今已成为解放军的主力武装直升机之一。（图片来源：鸣谢微博网友疯子白杨）








新浪军事深度：据中国军网报道，中国人民解放军已经大规模的给陆军航空兵部队配备了先进的昌河航空工业有限公司生产的武直-10。

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## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> How many Z-10 attack helicopters in the picture? (满天都是武直10！中国陆航展现大规模直升机群)


between 83 to 85 units

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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> Z-10 attack helicopter


SO after all there is no ram coating on Z-10 helo


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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

In flight training

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## jhungary

lcloo said:


> A prelude to the formation of PLAN Marine aviation attack helicopters and construction of helicopter carriers or LHA.
> 
> I wonder if they will transfer some existing army Z10s to the PLAN Marine when several army brigades change their uniform to that of marines.



You cannot transfer Army Helicopter to Marine Unit. Sea Based Assault Helicopter have to have different structure than Army/Air Force Based. You can land a Land Based Helicopter on a ship once or twice, but not basing them at sea.

A few structural differences included:

1.) Reinforced Landing Gear
2.) Folding Main Rotor blade
3.) Specially treated hull (Anti-Corrosion in High Salt Based environment)
4.) Rear Landing Gear relocation to provide more balance on tight ship borne environment

Not to mention mission package, radar package and crew training.

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

A nice set of HD pictures

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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter

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## grey boy 2



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## nang2

what is Z10K? better camo though.


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## lcloo

Z10K = 自10空 (军） = Z10 for Air force specification.

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## Beast

lcloo said:


> Z10K = 自10空 (军） = Z10 for Air force specification.


Actually from the camo, its looks more for the army.

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## princefaisal

Which engines are used in Z-10K?


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## Beast

princefaisal said:


> Which engines are used in Z-10K?


Rumour is uprated wz9g turboshaft or militarise of wz16

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## grey boy 2

Too much? Too many? 【东方某大国的武装直升机：密集恐惧症有没有









】

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## lcloo

Beast said:


> Actually from the camo, its looks more for the army.


Officially confirmed. K=空军版。 Airforce version has a variable shade paint scheme and serial number with prefix 6. 6xxx.

Lu Hang 陆航 Army avaition version serial numbers are with prefix LH. LHxxxxxx

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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopters getting ready for international competition for the 1st time (中国最强武直10首度出征！备战2017航空飞镖赛)

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## grey boy 2

HD pictures of Z-10 preparation before the competition (航空飞镖”开战在即 看我军参赛飞行员如何训练)

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## yusheng



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## yusheng



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## grey boy 2

The "BALL" 看球咯

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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> The "BALL" 看球咯


Very beautiful photos! Keep up the great work!

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

HD pictures of Z-10 "LH990101"

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> HD pictures of Z-10 "LH990101"



So is Z-10A LH990101 from the 81st Brigade - former 4th - the first one showing a new serial number system ?

Seems as if 90-9=81 could be the system for the PLA-LH.

Deino


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## cirr



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## cirr

Deino said:


> So is Z-10A LH990101 from the 81st Brigade - former 4th - the first one showing a new serial number system ?
> 
> Seems as if 90-9=81 could be the system for the PLA-LH.
> 
> Deino



What about LH9K701?

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## Deino

cirr said:


> What about LH9K701?
> 
> View attachment 425276




Oh no, please not another new set of serials!

Any idea where this was taken?


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## grey boy 2

Z-19Q

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## HRK

any specification for this MMW radar

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## yantong1980

Why Z-19 get MMW first? What about Z-10?


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## Yukihime

HRK said:


> any specification for this MMW radar



Early this year there has been report about the technological development which stated that comparing to the 'older generation' mounted on Long-Bow Apache series, the one on Z-19 is world's first AESA milimeter wave radar on armored heli, hence provides advantages from solid radar famework.

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## Beast

cirr said:


> View attachment 425237


I know some slayer will claim Z-19 engine is weak and cannot carry 16 ATGM. But fact is Z-10 and Z-19 totally has no underpowered engine problem.

Maybe they will claim those are dummy only.

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Z-19X the "BALL"

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## cirr

Z-10ME 






1600KW turboshaft






WZ-16






Z11WB

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## Imran Khan

grey boy 2 said:


>


in this pic we can see detailed nece view thanks for shearing it bro .

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## grey boy 2

A loaded Z-11WB




Z-10

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## cnleio



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## grey boy 2

More HD pictures from the helicopter expose Z-10, 19

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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter

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## Khafee

Z-19E, export version of the Z-19 combat helicopter, seems to have found its first customer. Contract of 5 copies signed by PolyTech.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/908550900385333248Who is the customer? Any details?

@grey boy 2 @Deino @cnleio @Chinese-Dragon and other respectable members

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter from the 4th Helicopters expose (天津直博会，共和国武装直升机，武直十，中国人民解放军越来越强大，自豪！)

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Imran Khan

both of them are gay or couples ?

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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> both of them are gay or couples ?


Only the great helo can be gay, not every tom dick harry helicopter can do that.

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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> both of them are gay or couples ?



Janab, your sense of humor is one of a kind = Exceptional, unusual.


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## Imran Khan

Beast said:


> Only the great helo can be gay, not every tom dick harry helicopter can do that.


but still cool i have never seen such show before TBH 



ashok321 said:


> Janab, your sense of humor is one of a kind = Exceptional, unusual.


time pass ker rahy hain is pappi dunya main yaar

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## ZeEa5KPul

grey boy 2 said:


> Z-10 attack helicopter from the 4th Helicopters expose (天津直博会，共和国武装直升机，武直十，中国人民解放军越来越强大，自豪！)


Who puts their watermark right in the middle of the damn picture? Seriously!?


----------



## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Who puts their watermark right in the middle of the damn picture? Seriously!?


If you put it in the corner, all it need to do is to crop it off. If you put it in the center.... Genius

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## lcloo

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Who puts their watermark right in the middle of the damn picture? Seriously!?


That is the way to uphold the copy right of the photographer who owns these photo, the purpose is to prevent un-authorised commercial use.

Just be thankful that the photo owner is willing to share these photo with us.

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## YeBeWarned

Awesome ..


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## grey boy 2

More HD pictures of Z-10, 19





















from the 4th Tianjin Helicopter Expo

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## grey boy 2

Z-10, 19,

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## JSCh



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## grey boy 2

Z-10 attack helicopter in actions 
#陆航雄鹰# 第77集团军某陆航旅远赴西北戈壁展开多机型、多弹种直升机极限距离射击训练，检验飞行员突防突击和对地攻击能力



_O_【喜迎十九大 强军铸辉煌】西北戈壁 武装直升...

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## grey boy 2

The 57th Z-19 (long bow) unveiled (第57架直19顶了个球)

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> The 57th Z-19 (long bow) unveiled (第57架直19顶了个球)




But that's an old and long dated image.... we even had no. 80 already in January *2014*





... and no. 176 already in May 2017 (however without the MMR)

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> But that's an old and long dated image.... we even had no. 80 already in January *2014*
> View attachment 431422
> 
> 
> ... and no. 176 already in May 2017 (however without the MMR)
> View attachment 431421


So right now, we probably have around 200 Z-19's? That's a very decent and sizable recon helicopter fleet ...


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## F-7




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## samsara

Firing exercise evaluation of the 79th Army Air Force Brigade.
The Z-10 from PLA Army (Ground Force)






The arsenal













-20℃, 90mm rocket loading.








Credits to dafeng cao, East Pendulum 04-05 Dec 2017
。。。

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## JSCh



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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Wide-body Z-18， compared to EH-101




Guys ... this is a thread for the combat helicopters Z-10 & Z-19 and we have a dedicated thread for the Z-8 & Z-18 transport types:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/z-8-and-z-18-transport-helicopter-thread.466117/page-4#post-9172850

Anyway most interesting. I moved these two posts.

Deino

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## JSCh

*Multi-type helicopters lift off for training *
Editor：Huang Panyue Time：2017-12-14

Multi-type attack helicopters attached to an aviation brigade of the PLA 73rd Group Army lift off from a military airfield for a night flight training exercise on December 13, 2017. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Li Shilong and Yang Changping)

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## BHarwana



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## BHarwana



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## cirr

Z-XX


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## Deino

Anyone with an idea what's this??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967587838568038400
As far as I know "Iron Eagle", he is a well known CG-artist, who usually creates quite realistic artworks.


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## IblinI

Most likely just a CG...


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## cirr

About time, about time.


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## Deino

cirr said:


> Z-XX



Hey ... I'm getting old. How could I missed your post just a minute before mine....??

Any more info? who's the manufactor, when can we expect to see it for the first time??


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Hey ... I'm getting old. How could I missed your post just a minute before mine....??
> 
> Any more info? who's the manufactor, when can we expect to see it for the first time??



Jingdezhen 2018/2019

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Anyone with an idea what's this??
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967587838568038400
> As far as I know "Iron Eagle", he is a well known CG-artist, who usually creates quite realistic artworks.


Nothing more than a CG.

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## BHarwana



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## Beast

The engines are secret.


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## IblinI

星海军事 said:


> Nothing more than a CG.


What about that he said "end of the year"?Heavy atk helicopter is coming?


----------



## clarkgap



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-19

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## The SC

WZ-19 with a longbow-like millimetric waves radar

http://china-defense.blogspot.ca/2018/04/

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## Deino

The SC said:


> WZ-19 with a longbow-like millimetric waves radar
> 
> http://china-defense.blogspot.ca/2018/04/



Why again a new thread ??? ... and IMO NOT new, we know the MMR-fitted since years...

Ssince January 2014 we know it with the MMR and also since Frebruary 2017 the first one in operational service was spotted (then 1st LH Brigade 54th GA).


----------



## The SC

Deino said:


> Why again a new thread ??? ... and IMO NOT new, we know the MMR-fitted since years...
> 
> Ssince January 2014 we know it with the MMR and also since Frebruary 2017 the first one in operational service was spotted (then 1st LH Brigade 54th GA).


These are new pics as of today.. and I did not know that a thread about "it" was already posted, I looked in titles but nothing was there.. good to merge it anyway..


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## LKJ86

Z-19

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## LKJ86

Z-19
PLA 80th Group Army, April 10, 2018

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5996312730/4231012856754613

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## Cybernetics

Deino said:


> Anyone with an idea what's this??
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967587838568038400
> As far as I know "Iron Eagle", he is a well known CG-artist, who usually creates quite realistic artworks.


Looks similar to this wind tunnel test model.

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## LKJ86

Z-10
2018.4.19













http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-04/23/content_8012401.htm

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## LKJ86

Z-10
PLA 80th Group Army, 2018.4.24








http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-04/25/content_8014935.htm

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## 帅的一匹



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## LKJ86

2003.4.29 - the maiden flight of Z-10










https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ewBRKaTHnE_Y_3NEZ8DsZg

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> 2003.4.29 - the maiden flight of Z-10
> View attachment 470113
> View attachment 470114
> View attachment 470115
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ewBRKaTHnE_Y_3NEZ8DsZg


A good engine is very important.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Z-10
http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:769351b0be03bb40ab398f3823c0c980


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## LKJ86

Z-10K
















https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ptlHNbX6LGUyhODmf8jyqA

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## LKJ86

PLA 80th Group Army Z-10
2018.5.2










http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-05/04/content_8023527.htm

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## LKJ86

PLA 78th Group Army Z-19

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## LKJ86

PLA 75th Group Army Z-19

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## LKJ86

Z-19E







https://k.sina.cn/article_544536082...m=qudao&sendweibouid=5445360823&http=fromhttp

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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/--QU-aLmjAiB341LZFiBtQ

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## BHarwana

China’s New Anti-Ship Choppers Pass Firing Tests

A new version of China’s domestic Harbin Z-19 multirole reconnaissance/attack helicopter, the Z-19E, concluded its firing tests, state-owned developer Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) said Wednesday.

"The Z-19E has shown its maneuverability and operational capability in the just-concluded firing flight test phase, which marks a major step for the export model into the market," AVIC said. The successful projectile tests follow the chopper's maiden flight in May 2017.






Foreign diplomats were invited to observe the Z-19Es as they made multiple test flights firing air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles in addition to rocket projectiles, according to People's Daily. AVIC hopes that the helicopters will draw overseas buyers; Chinese news agency Sina says Pakistan and Malaysia have an interest in them.

In the meantime, the Z-19Es are expected to help bolster the People's Liberation Army's sea assault abilities as tensions rise with Taiwan and in the larger South China Sea. Experts believe Taiwan could use an armada of small, high-speed missile gunboats to take down Chinese warships. 

"The very agile anti-ship helicopters [Z-19E] could completely counter this scheme," Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert, told China's Global Times.

The tests conclude amid a push in Washington this week to use Taiwan, among other countries in the South China Seas, to counter China with $7.5 billion over five years to be used to fund freedom-of-navigation operations, which Beijing has condemned, and provide more regular arms sales to Taiwan, among other activities. "We're trying to build a force that's appropriate to the longer-term challenges with China's military modernization program," Randall Schriver, assistant secretary of defense for Asian and Pacific security affairs, said Tuesday.



https://sputniknews.com/asia/201805181064561881-Chinas-Anti-Ship-Choppers/


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

wanglaokan said:


> A good engine is very important.


The WZ-16 is entering production next year: https://m.rednet.cn/detail.asp?id=4624904

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## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> The WZ-16 is entering production next year: https://m.rednet.cn/detail.asp?id=4624904


I am not sure how crucial WZ-16 turboshaft is for the military. We have seen Z-19E capable of carrying 16 ATGM plus longbow style radar which debuke the myth Z-19 is under powered. Same as Z-10 gunship which never exhibit the problem of underpowered. It proves the current engine install are good. WZ-16 maybe just a civilian designation turboshaft for Z-15 civilian market helo.


----------



## Figaro

Beast said:


> I am not sure how crucial WZ-16 turboshaft is for the military. We have seen Z-19E capable of carrying 16 ATGM plus longbow style radar which debuke the myth Z-19 is under powered. Same as Z-10 gunship which never exhibit the problem of underpowered. It proves the current engine install are good. WZ-16 maybe just a civilian designation turboshaft for Z-15 civilian market helo.


The WZ-16 is for the Z-10 ... the Z-19 is not underpowered in its current form.


----------



## Beast

Figaro said:


> The WZ-16 is for the Z-10 ... the Z-19 is not underpowered in its current form.


I doubt Z-10 is under powered if Z-19E has long solved the engine product. Z-10 is a even more important project than Z-19. More resources and effort is made for Z-10.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> The WZ-16 is for the Z-10 ... the Z-19 is not underpowered in its current form.


Z19 is much lighter than Z10 in weight.



Beast said:


> I doubt Z-10 is under powered if Z-19E has long solved the engine product. Z-10 is a even more important project than Z-19. More resources and effort is made for Z-10.


With input technology from WZ16, Z10 will be an formidable helis in the near future. We can make WZ16 a new engine with another new name, it depends on our need.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## Deino

*@AsianUnion 

Please take care that we have for most of the threads you just started or reactivated already existing threads which are recent, up to date and active.
There's no need to start new threads and reactivate old ones from 2012/13.*

Best,
Deino

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

2018/7/16

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

PLA 80th Group Army
2018.7.20

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## LKJ86



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## JSCh



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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/kwfRZrN2SvtYqlmCovjDMQ

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1403915120/4271565963248840


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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/1uTEJ6Nxy0sX-ReBN17XTQ

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10 in Russia

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## LKJ86



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## Fawadqasim1

Any news regarding z10 with wz16 turboshaft


----------



## LKJ86



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## Fawadqasim1

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 495701
> View attachment 495702
> View attachment 495703
> View attachment 495704
> View attachment 495705
> View attachment 495706


Any news regarding z10 with wz16 turboshaft


----------



## LKJ86

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Any news regarding z10 with wz16 turboshaft


WZ16 is for civilian use.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

September 13, 2018

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 499271



A new variant for export?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> A new variant for export?


Yes.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Yes.




Interesting ... but is this a real image or a manipulated one showing only the concept? To admit, I'm not entirely sure.


----------



## cirr

M for modified/improved, E for export, so says the caption.

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 499271


Is there a better engine associated with this?

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## cirr

Has anyone watched last night's hour long CCTV programme about Z-10, which dropped a gentle hint at the end about the coming next gen attack helicopter?

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Has anyone watched last night's hour long CCTV programme about Z-10, which dropped a gentle hint at the end about the coming next gen attack helicopter?



Could you summarize some main points?


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 499271


A better one:







Deino said:


> Interesting ... but is this a real image or a manipulated one showing only the concept? To admit, I'm not entirely sure.


It is a real image.



cirr said:


> Has anyone watched last night's hour long CCTV programme about Z-10, which dropped a gentle hint at the end about the coming next gen attack helicopter?


When the documentary of Z-10 comes out, it means that a new one is ready.

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> When the documentary of Z-10 comes out, it means that a new one is ready.



What did the report say about the new-generation attack helos?


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## LKJ86




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## HRK

cirr said:


> M for modified/improved, E for export, so says the caption.


export to any particular country ...??


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## Beast

HRK said:


> export to any particular country ...??


Very likely a middle East county given the camo.

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## jaybird

Rough Translation of the caption on the pic:

During the 2016 Zhuhai airshow/Exhibition a clipboard in front of a Z-10 model was named Z-10ME attack helicopter. M stands for Modified, and E stands for Export.

Two years later, the first export version of Z-10 is revealed. According to some reports, Z-10 was participated in Pakistan's next generation attack helicopter tender and lost to the Turkish T-129. Because of that this new version Z-10ME now upgraded the engine propulsion, weapons and avionics for superior capability to better compete in future international market.

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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Zarvan

Daily News
Sep 24, 2018Bilal Khan -
*Z-10ME: PHOTOS EMERGE OF NEW Z-10 ATTACK HELICOPTER VARIANT*
ShareTweet

On 20 September, the Chinese news daily Global Times reported that recent photos of an apparently new Z-10 attack helicopter variant were those of the Z-10ME, an improved variant of the Z-10 manufactured by the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) in Jiangxi, China.

The Z-10ME reportedly incorporates a new, higher-output turboshaft engine – 1200 kW versus 935 kW – over the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Z-10.

In fact, it is believed that the Z-10ME is being marketed for export. In early 2018, it was reported that the Z-10ME would include “heavier armor and improved electrical systems.” It is possible that CAIC developed the Z-10ME in response to the results the Z-10 had produced during its trials in Pakistan in 2016.

*Quwa Premium: How ITAR Impacts Pakistan’s T129 ATAK Purchase from Turkey*
We examine how ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations), a US regulatory restriction on the sale of sensitive and military equipment, could affect Pakistan’s purchase of 30 T129 attack helicopters from Turkey | Read More.

*Notes & Comments:*

The Pakistan Army had originally settled on 12 AH-1Z and 30 T129 attack helicopters to drive its efforts to supplant its aging AH-1F/S Cobras. However, the cancellation of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) as well as Coalition Support Funding (CSF) had resulted in the AH-1Z deal being put on hold (if not shelved).

The T129s are in a less tenuous position, though analysts are cautious due to the fact that the US can also opt to withhold the transfer of its engines to Turkey and/or Pakistan. However, there are no official signs of this block occurring at this time. Pakistan inked a contract for 30 T129s in July.

In either case, the availability of the Z-10ME could offer a substantive alternative. Besides improvements in its range (and hopefully, payload capacity), the Z-10-series draws on a critical advantage – scale. China’s significant domestic requirements will have distributed the Z-10’s research and development overheads across many units, thus potentially bringing the cost of each helicopter closer to the direct costs of labour, materials and manufacturing services in China. In other words, the Z-10ME could be a lower-cost option.

It will be interesting to see if the Pakistan Army would opt for the Z-10ME while still procuring the T129. The T129, while it had beat-out the Z-10 as part of a ‘plus-one’ tender to complement the AH-1Z, the loss of the AH-1Z would leave a gap in the heavyweight segment. The alternative to the AH-1Z could be to buy additional T129s (assuming there are no supply-side issues) or procure a different platform.

One idea could be to allocate the T129s for use in high-altitude theatres (where it had excelled during the trials of 2016), while procuring the Z-10ME – ideally at lower acquisition cost – for anti-armour operations in Sindh and Punjab. Reports of improved armour/protection would be a plus.

https://quwa.org/2018/09/24/z-10me-photos-emerge-of-new-z-10-attack-helicopter-variant/

Is the engine WZ-15

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## cirr

https://v.qq.com/x/cover/n6j4h0i09jdfmvj/m0723cnp14l.html

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045948233946746880


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## Deino

Also watch this video showing one Z-10 in a dessert colour scheme:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045954775714455552

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## Beast

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045948233946746880


Seriously, I dont see any difference in armour cockpit. This is just a standard Z-10 gunship in service.


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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Seriously, I dont see any difference in armour cockpit. This is just a standard Z-10 gunship in service.

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 501869
> 
> 
> View attachment 501870
> View attachment 501871
> View attachment 501872


Thanks, this photo is much clearer.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-19


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

Z-10 on the plateau at an altitude of 4,000 meters


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## LKJ86

President Xi & Z-10

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 501968


plz translate the caption


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## ozranger

LKJ86 said:


> President Xi & Z-10


 Can't watch. Requires login that I don't have.


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## cirr

LKJ86 said:


> Z-19
> View attachment 501946

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## LKJ86

The engine of Z-10ME is WZ-9G(改).
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Zb6prwVYsh5sMdvVIXOmgQ

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/fKijKFwkKPOWHx2mIk2nAg

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## Beast

A documentary development of Z-10 gunship.

The gunship is very quiet and agile. The frontier is designed to be very slim to reduced radar cross section while the back pilot seat is made higher to increase his situation awareness. Engine is 100% made in China. The domestic engine meet the target set but it suffer the same fate as Indian LCA as increase of combat subsystem added in, result in helo overweight. In order to ensure thrust to weight ratio. A massive weight reduction was carried out during its development which included major redesign. Armour and combat capabilities were not compromised. Combat payload remained the same but range increase as a result. Z-10 is the longest range gunship compare to others like Apache, Cobra, Roovalik, Mi-28 , Ka-50 and Tiger.

During avidart competition, Z-10 beat Mi-28 and Ka-50 in terms of combat effectiveness like speed of hunting target and accuracy shot. The chief designer claimed Z-10 is rank top 3 gunship in the world in terms of overall combat capabilities. The future plan for improvement of this gunship is to equip with a world beater engine that surpassed any current generation.....

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## LKJ86

Z-10 on the plateau
October 6, 2018

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## LKJ86

Z-10
PLA 82nd Group Army


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## LKJ86



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## cirr

AVIC GM Luo Ronghuai and his team watched the first flight of a helicopter on 29.09.2018 

【罗荣怀到景德镇直升机厂所调研】9月28～29日，航空工业党组副书记、总经理罗荣怀到景德镇直升机厂所调研。罗荣怀一行观看了某型直升机首飞，参观了航空工业昌飞吕蒙试飞站、总装车间和航空工业直升机所铁鸟试验台、风源、噪声试验室等科研生产场所，与厂所领导、科研生产骨干举行了座谈。
座谈会上，。。。

https://m.weibo.cn/profile/3061210763

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## LKJ86

*New armor material boosts attack chopper’s capability*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2018/10/10 23:08:46

The Chinese Z-10 attack helicopter is now equipped with extra armor involving graphene, a material that is strong and light, a Chinese military expert said on Wednesday after the State broadcaster featured the helicopter.

Video released by China Central Television last week showed the Z-10 landing in an airfield. Extra armor modules could be seen on the side of the helicopter near the cockpit.

Chinese helicopters, including the Z-10, did not have extra armor because their engines could only lift a certain weight, Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times on Wednesday, noting that the choice was made so that the Z-10 could carry a sufficient payload.

The extra armor shown in the broadcast is likely made of graphene, which is strong and light, and would solve the weight problem, Wei said.

Chinese researchers at the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials developed graphene materials that can be used for making armor and bullet vests, chinanews.com reported in 2016.

It said that graphene is about 200 times stronger than steel, can stretch an extra 20 percent, and weighs only 0.77 gram a cubic meter.

Attack helicopters like the Z-10 often fly low to attack ground targets, making them vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire, Wei said.

The extra armor can effectively protect key parts of the helicopter, like the cockpit and the fuel tank, from being directly hit, thus greatly expanding the aircraft's chance of survival, he said.

Wei said he expects graphene-based armor to be mass-produced and to also be used on other aircraft, noting its high efficiency and low cost.

Z-10ME, a modified and export version for Z-10, is ready for business, Chinese military analysts said.

Source:http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1122488.shtml

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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> *New armor material boosts attack chopper’s capability*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2018/10/10 23:08:46
> 
> The Chinese Z-10 attack helicopter is now equipped with extra armor involving graphene, a material that is strong and light, a Chinese military expert said on Wednesday after the State broadcaster featured the helicopter.
> 
> Video released by China Central Television last week showed the Z-10 landing in an airfield. Extra armor modules could be seen on the side of the helicopter near the cockpit.
> 
> Chinese helicopters, including the Z-10, did not have extra armor because their engines could only lift a certain weight, Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times on Wednesday, noting that the choice was made so that the Z-10 could carry a sufficient payload.
> 
> The extra armor shown in the broadcast is likely made of graphene, which is strong and light, and would solve the weight problem, Wei said.
> 
> Chinese researchers at the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials developed graphene materials that can be used for making armor and bullet vests, chinanews.com reported in 2016.
> 
> It said that graphene is about 200 times stronger than steel, can stretch an extra 20 percent, and weighs only 0.77 gram a cubic meter.
> 
> Attack helicopters like the Z-10 often fly low to attack ground targets, making them vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire, Wei said.
> 
> The extra armor can effectively protect key parts of the helicopter, like the cockpit and the fuel tank, from being directly hit, thus greatly expanding the aircraft's chance of survival, he said.
> 
> Wei said he expects graphene-based armor to be mass-produced and to also be used on other aircraft, noting its high efficiency and low cost.
> 
> Z-10ME, a modified and export version for Z-10, is ready for business, Chinese military analysts said.
> 
> Source:http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1122488.shtml


They neglected to mention that the engine has also been upgraded.

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## LKJ86



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## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> They neglected to mention that the engine has also been upgraded.


Z-10 gunship engine never has problem. The underpowered engine rumour is spin off from a nonsense article from China Military Defence forum claiming a redesign of engine exhaust is a result of engine underpowered after US embargo of PW engine to China. Plenty of hatre and ill informed news against then slowly spin off including non substantial rumour claiming armour is sacrificed for lessen of weight. 

Now the retribution for that anti-China military forum is heavily reduction of viewership which now makes it insignificant and loss of revenue. I stopped visiting that forum long ago. Too many haters and fake Chinese imposting as real Chinese trying to demoralise Chinese achievement.

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Z-10 gunship engine never has problem. The underpowered engine rumour is spin off from a nonsense article from China Military Defence forum claiming a redesign of engine exhaust is a result of engine underpowered after US embargo of PW engine to China. Plenty of hatre and ill informed news against then slowly spin off including non substantial rumour claiming armour is sacrificed for lessen of weight.
> 
> Now the retribution for that anti-China military forum is heavily reduction of viewership which now makes it insignificant and loss of revenue. I stopped visiting that forum long ago. Too many haters and fake Chinese imposting as real Chinese trying to demoralise Chinese achievement.


Someone requests Z-10 (6 tons) can do the same work as AH-64 (10 tons) does, otherwise Z-10's engine is thought to be underpowered.

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> Someone requests Z-10 (6 tons) can do the same work as AH-64 (10 tons) does, otherwise Z-10's engine is thought to be underpowered.


Surprisingly, nobody claim Euro Tiger Helo is underpowered and under armoured even it has a smaller engine output and slighter lesser weight.

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## waja2000

Beast said:


> Surprisingly, nobody claim Euro Tiger Helo is underpowered and under armoured even it has a smaller engine output and slighter lesser weight.



Airbus Tiger lighter than Z-10 （6t vs 7t）, plus Tiger Helo already used upgraded engine MTR-390E (1092kw)，higher output than Z-10 engine (1000kw)。Z-10 need 1200kw engine.


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## Beast

waja2000 said:


> Airbus Tiger lighter than Z-10 （6t vs 7t）, plus Tiger Helo already used upgraded engine MTR-390E (1092kw)，higher output than Z-10 engine (1000kw)。Z-10 need 1200kw engine.


lighter mean less armour according to some... But nobody claim Tiger is under armour despite being smaller and lighter than Z-10. Then they claim Z-10 armour is as thin as paper which Ak-47 rifle can easily punch a few hole. See the ironic? Especially the troll from Chinese Defense Forum who always being very selective in denouncing Chinese military hardware.

China WZ-9 turboshaft engine for Z-10 final power output until now is still a state secret. Your so called 1000W is just a random estimation that cannot be verify and is claimed to be given by troll from China defense forum. Maybe WZ-9 turboshaft output power is 1200kw. Who knows? The point is Chief designer of Z-10 gunship claim Z-10 do not suffer any under power. That means the current engine of Z-10 gunship is enough to meet the spec of PLA requirement.

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## waja2000

Beast said:


> China WZ-9 turboshaft engine for Z-10 final power output until now is still a state secret. Your so called 1000W is just a random estimation that cannot be verify and is claimed to be given by troll from China defense forum. Maybe WZ-9 turboshaft output power is 1200kw. Who knows? The point is Chief designer of Z-10 gunship claim Z-10 do not suffer any under power. That means the current engine of Z-10 gunship is enough to meet the spec of PLA requirement.



i believe Tiger and Z-10 amour can sustain from 5.56/7.62mm bullet, since both bullet effective range about 400-800 meter.
As reported in china WZ-9 turboshaft upgraded version will have around 1200kw output, but not sure went it will going production. early news WS-16 engine possible will use in Z-10.


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## LKJ86

waja2000 said:


> early news WS-16 engine possible will use in Z-10.


Impossible.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

For anyone interested: Closely following and complementing the two recent books on the Chinese Naval Aviation (April 2018) and the regular Air Force (due out in October 2018), with this third volume on the Army Aviation all three major PLA branches are covered.

http://www.harpia-publishing.com/futurebooks


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1053633896888369152
Hope you like them

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 511990
> View attachment 511991
> View attachment 511992
> View attachment 511993
> View attachment 511994
> View attachment 511995
> View attachment 511996
> View attachment 511997



What's the export name of this type? Given it's eagle or hawk I'm a bit surprised?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> What's the export name of this type? Given it's eagle or hawk I'm a bit surprised?


Its Chinese name is "鹗" (maybe meaning "osprey").

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86

Z-10K

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 511990
> View attachment 511991
> View attachment 511992
> View attachment 511993
> View attachment 511994
> View attachment 511995
> View attachment 511996
> View attachment 511997


this camo looks very similar to Pakistani Army helicopters camo...


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## 帅的一匹

do you guys notice the DSI intake on Z10 ME.


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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86



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## haidian



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## clarkgap

wanglaokan said:


> do you guys notice the DSI intake on Z10 ME.



It is the axle of engine...


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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86

Z-10K

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## 帅的一匹

The added armour plate is made of graphene material.



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 524713


Domestic infrared signal suppressor? Great news!


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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 524713



translate plz.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The video of Z-10:
https://m.weibo.cn/6444593050/4319670896767692

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## samsara

@Beast, I wonder which military forum/discussion that you meant indeed??? I tried to search the phrase "China Military Defence Forum" but got nothing in return. If I search without the double quotes the query returned several sites on Chinese military, so I am not sure which one that you meant indeed. Appreciate if you may make it clear 



Beast said:


> Z-10 gunship engine never has problem. The underpowered engine rumour is spin off from a nonsense article from China Military Defence forum claiming a redesign of engine exhaust is a result of engine underpowered after US embargo of PW engine to China. Plenty of hatre and ill informed news against then slowly spin off including non substantial rumour claiming armour is sacrificed for lessen of weight.
> 
> Now the retribution for that anti-China military forum is heavily reduction of viewership which now makes it insignificant and loss of revenue. I stopped visiting that forum long ago. Too many haters and fake Chinese imposting as real Chinese trying to demoralise Chinese achievement.

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## Beast

samsara said:


> @Beast, I wonder which military forum/discussion that you meant indeed??? I tried to search the phrase "China Military Defence Forum" but got nothing in return. If I search without the double quotes the query returned several sites on Chinese military, so I am not sure which one that you meant indeed. Appreciate if you may make it clear


Actually is china defense forum. But its a sh*tty anti china website. I stop going there and the traffic has since been on low after all the self bragging of US and degrading of China military.

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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Stealth

The helicopter was big failed in Pakistan trials did you know that? lol


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## rashid.sarwar

Stealth said:


> The helicopter was big failed in Pakistan trials did you know that? lol


What area did it failed?, can you explain or share any link...


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## chengdusudise

Stealth said:


> The helicopter was big failed in Pakistan trials did you know that? lol


strange. it is a big sucess in china

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10K

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10K

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## LKJ86



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## python-000

Hello Chinese bros, any news about Z10-ME witch was modified according Pakistan requirements or dose Pakistan interested to acquire them in future plz update...

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## LKJ86

Z-19

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The power of Z-10's engine WZ-9 has improved about 15%.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10K

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## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10K
> View attachment 544949
> View attachment 544950
> View attachment 544951


What is the difference between Z-10 and Z-10K? (and WZ-10?)


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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

bahadur999 said:


> What is the difference between Z-10 and Z-10K? (and WZ-10?)


Z10K is the PLA Air Force Variant with modification on certain electronic sensors and different gun setup. Never heard of WZ-10.

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## bahadur999

lcloo said:


> Z10K is the PLA Air Force Variant with modification on certain electronic sensors and different gun setup. Never heard of WZ-10.


WZ-10 is a term the seen quiet often in the official china mil website. I suppose the "W" is for "Wu".


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## lcloo

You are right on China Mil reporter using the term WZ-10, but I am afraid that he made a common mistake of direct translation word by word. It is correct using Chinese 武直10 （wuzhi 10) in normal layman usage. 

However, the official term by manufacturer is just Zhi-10 (Z10).​




Z10ME

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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> You are right on China Mil reporter using the term WZ-10, but I am afraid that he made a common mistake of direct translation word by word. It is correct using Chinese 武直10 （wuzhi 10) in normal layman usage.
> 
> However, the official term by manufacturer is just Zhi-10 (Z10).​
> View attachment 546830
> 
> Z10ME
> View attachment 546831


The gunship version of Z-9 is called WZ-9, so some people mistakenly call Z-10 as WZ-10.


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## lcloo

LKJ86 said:


> The gunship version of Z-9 is called WZ-9, so some people mistakenly call Z-10 as WZ-10.


Yes, true. And an armed Z9 is called WZ9 for a good reason. Z9 is a utility helicopter capable of multi-role missions. WZ9 is a dedicated attack variant that deserved a name to differentiate it from the standard Z9.

A lot of confusions were made when WZ9 first appeared, including myself. Initial I thought it was called Z9W, I was wrong then.


----------



## LKJ86



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## aftab_s81

Any reason why Pakistan has selected T129 over Z-10? I have heard they were happy with Ferry range and climb rate. Any expert here?


----------



## Beast

aftab_s81 said:


> Any reason why Pakistan has selected T129 over Z-10? I have heard they were happy with Ferry range and climb rate. Any expert here?


PA are re evaluating the new Z-10ME after cancel of AH-1Z gunship. New Z-10ME has more powerful engine and armour. PA may buy both TA-129 and Z-10ME.

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## Khafee

Beast said:


> PA are re evaluating the new Z-10ME after cancel of AH-1Z gunship. New Z-10ME has more powerful engine and armour. PA may buy both TA-129 and Z-10ME.


Z-10ME specs?


----------



## Beast

Khafee said:


> Z-10ME specs?


Spec are not disclosed but reported to have 15% more hp than previous engine.

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## Khafee

Beast said:


> Spec are not disclosed but reported to have 15% more hp than previous engine.


What about details of the armament?


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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-19

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Brainsucker

So, the current Z-10 mass production type in PLA are Z-10K configuration or Z-10ME configuration? Or do they have a better, upgraded configuration for this helicopter?


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## Aryeih Leib

Our friends of Alert5 reported a terrible crash of a most probable Chinese military Z-10 helicopter. 

The attack helicopter was said practicing a fly-by when it crashed, resulting in one pilot killed and the other one injured. The Chinese armed forces are operating the Z-10 mainly within the People's Liberation Army - Aviation (PLAA), but also the PLAAF is operating some. 

Further information such as location and date is not known yet. Anyone?

Photo credit: via Alert5 and unknown





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2768099989883184





@LKJ86


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## AMG_12

RIP

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## Feng Leng

LOL at Indian twitter rumors

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## Deino

Feng Leng said:


> LOL at Indian twitter rumors



Since when is Scramble.nl an Indian Twitter-site?

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## Maxpane

RIP

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Since when is Scramble.nl an Indian Twitter-site?


But since like no confirmation from Chinese website and scramble is not at best in reporting latest China aviation news. We need more comfirmation.
Seriously doubt this news is authentic.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> But since like no confirmation from Chinese website and scramble is not at best in reporting latest China aviation news. We need more comfirmation.
> Seriously doubt this news is authentic.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was real. Accidents are bound to happen to any military. Just look at the Japanese F-35 crash from 2 weeks ago.

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir it was reported by scramble magazine


Feng Leng said:


> LOL at Indian twitter rumors


----------



## Beast

Figaro said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it was real. Accidents are bound to happen to any military. Just look at the Japanese F-35 crash from 2 weeks ago.


News about helo crashed will come out fast in China as large number of resident has smartphone and network. News will spread fast which even media control can't stop it.
In this case, its all quiet at Chinese website and out of the blue, this western scramble reported Z-10 Helo crashed.

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## lcloo

Ronnie k said:


> Sir it was reported by scramble magazine


Scramble published the second hand news after Alert5 posted on his tweeter without link to any source or confirmation. And Alert5's complete exact words are

_" *Purported to be* Z-10 attack helicopter. One killed and the other injured. Was said to be practicing for flyover."
_
There is no similar news or confirmation from any other website or news portal.

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## Beast

lcloo said:


> Scramble published the second hand news after Alert5 posted on his tweeter without any source or confirmation. And Alert5's exact words are
> 
> _" *Purported to be* Z-10 attack helicopter. One killed and the other injured. Was said to be practicing for flyover."
> _
> There is no similar news or confirmation from any other website or news portal.


Another smearing attempt by western. Scramble are not very credible for reporting Chinese military aviation.

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## lonelyman

Ronnie k said:


> Our friends of Alert5 reported a terrible crash of a most probable Chinese military Z-10 helicopter.
> 
> The attack helicopter was said practicing a fly-by when it crashed, resulting in one pilot killed and the other one injured. The Chinese armed forces are operating the Z-10 mainly within the People's Liberation Army - Aviation (PLAA), but also the PLAAF is operating some.
> 
> Further information such as location and date is not known yet. Anyone?
> 
> Photo credit: via Alert5 and unknown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2768099989883184
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @LKJ86
> View attachment 556941
> View attachment 556942



as fake as CNN

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## Figaro

Too much fake news.

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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> So, the current Z-10 mass production type in PLA are Z-10K configuration or Z-10ME configuration? Or do they have a better, upgraded configuration for this helicopter?




Nope, they are using an older or at best similar configuration to the K model, even if recently a few were updated with new armour plates and sensors.

The ME in contrast has a different ammunition fed-system, sand-filters, IR supressors + upward facing exhausts and some more changes, allegedly also an uprated engine but at least to my understanding so far none of the regular PLAAA birds has them.

By the way, in case someone might be interested in the now third volume of the PLA aviation troops, the Army Aviation. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125315239707209728
http://www.harpia-publishing.com/galleries/CNAAV/index.html

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## LKJ86



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## Dushyant

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 558951
> View attachment 558952


This i guess was spotted and photographed in Nanda devi biosphere reserve national park uttarakhand (India ) in 2018 . looks like a regular visitor to barahoti ( regional flat lands ) in uttarakhand india


----------



## LKJ86

Dushyant said:


> This i guess was spotted and photographed in Nanda devi biosphere reserve national park uttarakhand (India ) in 2018 . looks like a regular visitor to barahoti ( regional flat lands ) in uttarakhand india


Are you serious?


----------



## Dushyant

LKJ86 said:


> Are you serious?


Yup very!


----------



## Deino

Dushyant said:


> This i guess was spotted and photographed in Nanda devi biosphere reserve national park uttarakhand (India ) in 2018 . looks like a regular visitor to barahoti ( regional flat lands ) in uttarakhand india



Not sure if Your post went wrong or what You thought, but I would be highly surprised if any PLA Army Aviation combat helicopters would have been spotted already in 2018 in an Indian nature reserve without being instantly being posted everywhere.


----------



## Dushyant

LKJ86 said:


> Are you serious?





Deino said:


> Not sure if Your post went wrong or what You thought, but I would be highly surprised if any PLA Army Aviation combat helicopters would have been spotted already in 2018 in an Indian nature reserve without being instantly being posted everywhere.


I don't even understand what you mean by post went wrong. I am resident of uttarakhand and lot of people in past years have reported to have seen slim long five blade Heli with small side wings , Indian army has no such 5 rotor Heli. So my conclusion. Also google earth ( very dated data) has a place near barahoti plains (nanda devi biosphere reserve ) where i managed tonight a screenshot of it ( probably same helo as seen by locals)


----------



## Deino

Dushyant said:


> I don't even understand what you mean by post went wrong. I am resident of uttarakhand and lot of people in past years have reported to have seen slim long five blade Heli with small side wings , Indian army has no such 5 rotor Heli. So my conclusion. Also google earth ( very dated data) has a place near barahoti plains (nanda devi biosphere reserve ) where i managed tonight a screenshot of it ( probably same helo as seen by locals)




Please ... a PLA Army helicopter in India! 

This alone is ridiculous.... and that heli is clearly a Mi-171


----------



## Dushyant

Deino said:


> Please ... a PLA Army helicopter in India!
> 
> This alone is ridiculous.... and that heli is clearly a Mi-171


Could be , but mi is a fat bogey. Not slim. And not atall ridiculous if you know how many nights PLA spends on barahoti plains regularly. there have been many media reports of pla Heli on barahoti ,although media did not highlight exact type of helo



Deino said:


> Please ... a PLA Army helicopter in India!
> 
> This alone is ridiculous.... and that heli is clearly a Mi-171





Deino said:


> Please ... a PLA Army helicopter in India!
> 
> This alone is ridiculous.... and that heli is clearly a Mi-171


----------



## lcloo

Dushyant said:


> Could be , but mi is a fat bogey. Not slim. And not atall ridiculous if you know how many nights PLA spends on barahoti plains regularly. there have been many media reports of pla Heli on barahoti ,although media did not highlight exact type of helo


Russian attack helicopters!!! Mi-28 in Barahoti!!!

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## Deino

To my surprise - and as such already an update to the soon to be published book on the PLA Army Aviation - a PLA AA training brigade also gained Z-10A attack helicopters.

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## Deino

Dushyant said:


> This i guess was spotted and photographed in Nanda devi biosphere reserve national park uttarakhand (India ) in 2018 . looks like a regular visitor to barahoti ( regional flat lands ) in uttarakhand india




Back to your claim ... here the original source mentions it is:



> A cluster of multi-type attack helicopters attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 80th Group Army lift off simultaneously for a recent flight training exercise, aiming to hone troops’ actual combat capabilities. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Li Qiguang)



http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-05/08/content_9498552.htm

The 80th PLA GA is subordinated to the Northern TC.


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## Aryeih Leib

There are news about a JH7 crash too


----------



## YeBeWarned

If true, rest in peace for the pilot

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## XaviorXX

Seems not a fake news. Where the helicopter crashed is my hometown. And the news said the heli try to avoid student housing, highways, power lines and villages, it's probably my university campus. There are at least 3 colleges and many villages, so the pilots avoided greater damage to personnel and property, they are all heros. RIP.

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## Aryeih Leib

Indeed a true warrior


XaviorXX said:


> Seems not a fake news. Where the helicopter crashed is my hometown. And the news said the heli try to avoid student housing, highways, power lines and villages, it's probably my university campus. There are at least 3 colleges and many villages, so the pilots avoided greater damage to personnel and property, they are all heros. RIP.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Done ...

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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

Live fire training in Kunlun Mountain in Western China. 

Z-10 attack helicopter attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 76th Group Army fires rockets to attack mock targets during a live-fire training exercise in west China’s plateau area in early July, 2019. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Wu Zhen and Wu Xiaofeng)

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## 055_destroyer

lcloo said:


> Live fire training in Kunlun Mountain in Western China.
> 
> Z-10 attack helicopter attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 76th Group Army fires rockets to attack mock targets during a live-fire training exercise in west China’s plateau area in early July, 2019. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Wu Zhen and Wu Xiaofeng)
> 
> View attachment 568818
> View attachment 568819
> View attachment 568820


This shows Z-10 is capable to handle high attitude plateau combat. Debunk rumor of Z-10 not suitable for this kind of high attitude.

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## Keysersoze

055_destroyer said:


> This shows Z-10 is capable to handle high attitude plateau combat. Debunk rumor of Z-10 not suitable for this kind of high attitude.


Doesn't really debunk anything. It's a still photograph. The issues could could be the available load for the aircraft at altitude for example none of the helps in the picture are fully loaded.


----------



## vi-va

Keysersoze said:


> Doesn't really debunk anything. It's a still photograph. The issues could could be the available load for the aircraft at altitude for example none of the helps in the picture are fully loaded.


High altitude is very challenging for helicopters. If Chinese attack helicopters can work well above 5000 with full loads, I believe Pakistan will be very interested. Huge advantage in Kashmir.

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## 055_destroyer

Keysersoze said:


> Doesn't really debunk anything. It's a still photograph. The issues could could be the available load for the aircraft at altitude for example none of the helps in the picture are fully loaded.



Not all helo are allow to high at such high attitude plateau even with empty load. Not to mention combat helo. Only a few are qualify to fly high attitude.

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## vi-va

055_destroyer said:


> Not all helo are allow to high at such high attitude plateau even with empty load. Not to mention combat helo. Only a few are qualify to fly high attitude.


Agree. US army got huge problem in Afghanistan in the first couple of years. Even 4000 is quite challenging for US helos.


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## LKJ86

Z-10

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The documentary of Z-10:

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 572801



From Aviadarts?

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

I got my first review! 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1188182284719195

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574674
> View attachment 574675



Why are these quad-pylons so much different? One for the KD-9 and the other for the KD-10?? I thought the Z-19 can only use the KD-9???


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Jäger

to differ between the two, Z-10 is the main attack helicopter and the Z-19 is an armed recon helicopter?


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> Why are these quad-pylons so much different? One for the KD-9 and the other for the KD-10?? I thought the Z-19 can only use the KD-9???


Check post #1143, photo taken on Z10-ME in Zhuhai last year, the one with darker paint looks like pylon for short range air-to-air missile.

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> Check post #1143, photo taken on Z10-ME in Zhuhai last year, the one with darker paint looks like pylon for short range air-to-air missile.
> View attachment 575348
> View attachment 575349
> View attachment 575350


Z-10 is designed to kill AH-64 Apache of Taiwan. Air to Air missiles is must have.

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## LKJ86



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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 575756


Interesting hmds..


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10s on the plateau

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

The good old Z-10H


----------



## Deino

Z-10H LH952116 - 82. Brigade

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Z-10H LH952116 - 82. Brigade
> 
> View attachment 577433


Via @佛系军迷京城老九 from weibo:
https://m.weibo.cn/1311241605/4412152272333513

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via www.top81cn.cn

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## LKJ86

Z-10s in Russia 
















Via @鼎盛飞豹 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南部强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @军报记者 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

Z-10ME

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## LKJ86

Via @Neo双垂尾蓝光 from Weibo

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1


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## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @TEDAER from Weibo

















Via @耿直的鲁斯兰 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via mil.huanqiu.com

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## Readerdefence

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 583034
> View attachment 583035
> View attachment 583036
> View attachment 583037
> View attachment 583038
> View attachment 583039
> View attachment 583040
> View attachment 583041
> 
> Via mil.huanqiu.com


Hi LKJ86 any information about the features of radar dome 
Thank you


----------



## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182195161687683072

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## LKJ86

Via @陆军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## JSCh

*Firm displays upgraded helicopters at Tianjin expo*
By Liu Xuanzun and Yang Tiehu in Tianjin Source:Global Times Published: 2019/10/13 21:28:40



A Z-19 attack helicopter with an extra millimeter wave fire control radar on the top of its rotor is displayed at the Fifth China Helicopter Exposition in Tianjin on October 10. Photo: Liu Xuanzun/GT

The Chinese military has upgraded its large transport helicopter for plateau missions and added an extra radar comparable to Apache's Longbow to its light attack helicopter for more lethality, while China's top helicopter manufacturer exported two armed helicopters for the first time to Africa, it was revealed at China's top helicopter expo, which concluded on Sunday.

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation and Changhe Aircraft Industry (Group) Corp under the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) signed a contract, involving the export of two Z-11E armed helicopters to Africa on Thursday at the Fifth China Helicopter Exposition held in Tianjin.

The contract marked the first time this type of helicopter has been exported, and also the first time a product of AVIC's Changhe branch has been sold to Africa.

Capable of carrying six people, machine guns, rockets and anti-tank missiles, the 2.2-ton Z-11E can conduct military and paramilitary missions including land attacks, support, reconnaissance and counter-terrorism.

It features an advanced Chinese-made engine, has a high flight performance, is digitalized and easy to maintain.

It was not revealed which African country made the purchase.



A Z-11E armed light helicopter. Photo: huanqiu.com

The Chinese military also showcased upgrades to its other helicopters.

The Z-19 light attack helicopter on display had an extra millimeter wave fire control radar on the top of its rotor.

The radar, which military observers said resembles the Longbow radar on the US Apache Longbow attack helicopter, enables the Z-19 to search and track targets over long distances in complicated weather conditions day and night, and provide accurate targeting data for guided weapon systems.

The Z-8G, China's first large transport helicopter with a focus on plateau operations based on the original Z-8, can lift more troops and supplies to high-altitude areas.

The helicopter can take off from 4,500 meters above sea level and has a ceiling of more than 6,000 meters, China Central Television reported on Saturday, noting that the Z-8G has three powerful engines to ensure its flight and safety.



A Z-8G transport helicopter with enhanced capabilities to fly in plateau areas is displayed at the Fifth China Helicopter Exposition in Tianjin on October 10. Photo: Liu Xuanzun/GT

Many advanced technologies introduced during the development of the Z-20 could also be applied to other helicopters in the future, Chen Guang, a vice general manager of AVIC's helicopter branch Avicopter, told the Global Times at the expo.

The Z-20 features new technologies like a fly-by-wire flight control system, collision avoidance radar, anti-icing system, active vibration control and low-noise rotor design.

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183244652960518145@Windjammer @Quwa @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## LKJ86

Via @inSky_1865 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

5th China Helicopter Exposition closes in north China's Tianjin

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## LKJ86

Via @罗旭 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @冰凉2010 from Weibo

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----------



## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184091904444715010

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## LKJ86

Z-10K




Via @DS谁明浪子心 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @goneless from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @DS南海听风 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## lcloo

Z10 helmet.

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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> Z10 helmet.
> 
> View attachment 586942


Old version...


----------



## JSCh

Check Out This Chinese Helicopter Gunship Helmet That Looks Like a Movie Prop. – The Aviationist

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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via @北陆强军号 from Weixin


----------



## lcloo

PLA Airforce Z10K #6325 with gun pointing downwards.

Photo via by78 SDF.

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> PLA Airforce Z10K #6325 with gun pointing downwards.
> 
> Photo via by78 SDF.
> View attachment 588543


is it mower?


----------



## lcloo

viva_zhao said:


> is it mower?


Air base perimeters patrol and suppression of intruders.

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> Air base perimeters patrol and suppression of intruders.


Good to know, thx. I don't see how it can suppress intruder, any idea?


----------



## lcloo

viva_zhao said:


> Good to know, thx. I don't see how it can suppress intruder, any idea?


Remember the terrorist intruders attacking a Pakistan naval air base last year? They destroyed a few PC-3 maritime patrol planes and damaged some AWAC aircraft.anon

Firing canon by an attack helicopter with precision sight from a high above would be fatal to the intruders.

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @拍灰机的舒克 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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----------



## bahadur999




----------



## LKJ86

Z-10ME














Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @忠诚号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @忠诚号 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Z-10ME




Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 598505
> 
> Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin



Interesting, that it finally has the upwards facing exhausts fitted, which were shown at Zhuhai 2018. On the last image I found before (no. 2) it was still the old one facing to the sides.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 598805
> View attachment 598806
> View attachment 598807
> View attachment 598808
> View attachment 598809
> View attachment 598810
> 
> Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin




Are these images all from the same base? I'm a bit confused since they are said to be from a unit called 镇川堡陆航试训团 (or the "Zhenchuanbao Aviation Training Team" ??) and at 37°52'28.0"N 110°04'14.2"E is indeed an air base I so far had not listed in my Orbat.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215313198028656640


----------



## LKJ86

Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @钢铁先锋号 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

July 25, 2019




By 张翼

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----------



## beijingwalker

*Chinese PLA Z-10 and Z-19 helicopters demonstration*
During the fifth China Helicopter Exposition at Tianjin in north China
*



*

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## LKJ86

July 25, 2019




By 张翼

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via www.js7tv.cn and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227881237349531654

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227881237349531654


They are from 80th Group Army.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> They are from 80th Group Army.




Thanks ... do you have the original link at Weixin. Thanks in advance.


----------



## LKJ86



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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 606346
> View attachment 606347
> View attachment 606348


PLA shall sold all its Mi-17 to Pakistan army or other countries like Cambodia, Laos and use Z-20 and Z-8A as its main workhorse.

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## LKJ86

Via @人民陆军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

February 18, 2020




Via 解放军报


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民前线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin


----------



## SD 10

z 10 is a beauty

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## LKJ86

Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西南雄师号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 611645
> 
> Via @万全 from Weibo


Hi bro, Are there any new negotiations between China & Pakistan in terms of Z-10ME or any news...

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南陆一号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @人民前线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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----------



## LKJ86

Z-10K





































Via @我们的天空 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @防弹衣_13348 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

March 11, 2020

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @陆军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 622776
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin



The Z-19 light attack helicopter doesn't have gun turret and could carry light armament on its 4 pylons. Maximum 4x anti-tank missiles or 2x anti-tank missiles & 2x rocket pods. Why bother to build Z-19 instead of increasing numbers of Z-10 medium attack helicopters? It is the heavy attack helicopters equivalent to AH-64E and MI-28 that China needs. The Z-20 made out of reverse engineered US blackhawk, its engines are powerful enough for heavy attack helicopter. Do you think the project is already underway? AH-64E engine is similar to UH-60 Blackhawk?


----------



## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> The Z-19 light attack helicopter doesn't have gun turret and could carry light armament on its 4 pylons. Maximum 4x anti-tank missiles or 2x anti-tank missiles & 2x rocket pods. Why bother to build Z-19 instead of increasing numbers of Z-10 medium attack helicopters? It is the heavy attack helicopters equivalent to AH-64E and MI-28 that China needs. The Z-20 made out of reverse engineered US blackhawk, its engines are powerful enough for heavy attack helicopter. Do you think the project is already underway? AH-64E engine is similar to UH-60 Blackhawk?


Z-19 can carry gun pod on pylon if neccessary. Since attack helo are agile. Their firing angle can be quickly adjusted to lock onto targets. Z-19 can act as scout ,support and attack helo only if necessary. They are cheaper to build, operate and dispensable. While a single unit of Z-10 price may be close to a J-10 due to plenty of advance sensor, composite blade and special alloy body plus the turbo shaft, make it very expensive. Indian purchase the apache AH-64 with a single helo cost USD 35 million.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Z-19 can carry gun pod on pylon if neccessary. Since attack helo are agile. Their firing angle can be quickly adjusted to lock onto targets. Z-19 can act as scout ,support and attack helo only if necessary. They are cheaper to build, operate and dispensable. While a single unit of Z-10 price may be close to a J-10 due to plenty of advance sensor, composite blade and special alloy body plus the turbo shaft, make it very expensive. Indian purchase the apache AH-64 with a single helo cost USD 35 million.



US AH-64E sold to India is including profit markup. The Z-10 is local domestic and smaller category compared to AH-64E so it shouldn't be as expensive as J-10. I expect China future heavy attack helicopter cheaper than AH-64E.

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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> US AH-64E sold to India is including profit markup. The Z-10 is local domestic and smaller category compared to AH-64E so it shouldn't be as expensive as J-10. I expect China future heavy attack helicopter cheaper than AH-64E.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

USD 35 million is price for USA. 

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/us-india-sign-contract-for-6-more-ah-64e-attack-helicopters/

Indian signed 6 AH-64E for USD800 million. You can imagine the price per unit when export..


----------



## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache
> 
> USD 35 million is price for USA.
> 
> https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/us-india-sign-contract-for-6-more-ah-64e-attack-helicopters/
> 
> Indian signed 6 AH-64E for USD800 million. You can imagine the price per unit when export..



The US$800 million is including fake markup corruption for yindu ministers (cash to their pockets). Price could go double to triple under their accounts.


----------



## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> The US$800 million is including fake markup corruption for yindu ministers (cash to their pockets). Price could go double to triple under their accounts.


You have to accept dedicated helo are expensive which no average job can afford to owned one type of expensive attack helo only.

Pairing Z-19 with Z-10 is a logic choice to bring down operating cost. Nothing to doubt about.

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## LKJ86

Via @北陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

By 吴龙飞

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> You have to accept dedicated helo are expensive which no average job can afford to owned one type of expensive attack helo only.
> 
> Pairing Z-19 with Z-10 is a logic choice to bring down operating cost. Nothing to doubt about.



Z19 could only carry maximum 4x anti-tank missiles based on specifications on max payload and photos from LKJ86.

How about Z-10? Can it carry 16x anti-tank missiles equivalent to AGM-114 Hellfire like AH-1Z Viper?



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 623624
> View attachment 623625
> View attachment 623626
> View attachment 623627
> View attachment 623628
> 
> By 吴龙飞



The last 2 photos, what armament being carried on Z-10 outer pylons? Mini anti-tank missiles in pack of 4 or unguided rockets? They look really small, what is the effective range? Less than 3Nm (6km) ? It looks more like air to air missiles to me, equivalent to AIM92 stinger.


----------



## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> Z19 could only carry maximum 4x anti-tank missiles based on specifications on max payload and photos from LKJ86.
> 
> How about Z-10? Can it carry 16x anti-tank missiles equivalent to AGM-114 Hellfire like AH-1Z Viper?

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> View attachment 623984



This photo explains but 1 rack is empty. What type of anti-tank missile is this and what is the effective range?


----------



## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> This photo explains but 1 rack is empty. What type of anti-tank missile is this and what is the effective range?


Yes, but 8x ATGM and 4 x ata missile are impressive for such light attack helo. Not to mention it carry a milimeter wave radar at top. A Z-10 can carry much more than this load out. The ATGM missile used is same weight as hellfire type. Each missile weight 50kg


----------



## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Yes, but 8x ATGM and 4 x ata missile are impressive for such light attack helo. Not to mention it carry a milimeter wave radar at top. A Z-10 can carry much more than this load out. The ATGM missile used is same weight as hellfire type. Each missile weight 50kg



Got it, 8x ATGM and 4x A-A is good for light attack helicopter especially when deployed in large numbers would swarm the enemy ground forces and helicopters.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252546214769438720

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南陆一号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @光荣e家 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Z-10ME










Via @航空工业直升机所 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

-------------------------------
Maybe there are at least two Z-10MEs...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME
> View attachment 627144
> View attachment 627145
> View attachment 627146
> 
> Via @航空工业直升机所 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo
> 
> -------------------------------
> Maybe there are at least two Z-10MEs...




Why do you think of two?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Why do you think of two?


The pics are taken recently for sure, and the engine exhausts...

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @CNR国防时空 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @stinger_银翼 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin


----------



## LKJ86

Via @南陆一号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @军报记者 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @CNR国防时空 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

By Wei Meng

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 630389
> View attachment 630390
> View attachment 630391
> 
> Via @军报记者 from Weibo



















Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @现在又叫Songbird了 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @忠诚号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Z-10K



















Via @我们的天空 from Weixin

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 629814
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


New Z-10 with exhaust pointing up?

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## Deino

Beast said:


> New Z-10 with exhaust pointing up?




Seems so ... and additional armour


----------



## LKJ86

Via navy.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

Oh please not a new serial number system for the PLA Army Aviation?! 
This Z-10A spots the unusual number '1141'. 

(Image by CCTV-7 via Huiton's CMA-Blog)


----------



## Deino

By the way, there have been some reports about a PLA Army Aviation Brigade with Z-10s being transferred to Tibet/Xizang ... does anyone have a proof or at least link to this?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> By the way, there have been some reports about a PLA Army Aviation Brigade with Z-10s being transferred to Tibet/Xizang ... does anyone have a proof or at least link to this?













Via @人民陆军 from Weixin

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## jaybird

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 645081
> View attachment 645082
> View attachment 645083
> 
> Via @人民陆军 from Weixin



Indians: Chi Com Photoshop! Z10 vaporware can't fly in the Tibetan Plateau.

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## JSCh

Video of aviation brigade of the 73rd Army organized multi-type helicopter and multi-type missile cross-day and night live-fire shooting exercise
-> 【海上突防 现场感受直升机精准摧毁目标】...-来自第一军视-微博视频​

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> By the way, there have been some reports about a PLA Army Aviation Brigade with Z-10s being transferred to Tibet/Xizang ... does anyone have a proof or at least link to this?





LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 645081
> View attachment 645082
> View attachment 645083
> 
> Via @人民陆军 from Weixin














Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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----------



## Figaro

jaybird said:


> Indians: Chi Com Photoshop! Z10 vaporware can't fly in the Tibetan Plateau.


The Indians talk too much crap for a military that has virtually no indigenous systems

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## Beast

Point your helmet HMS and the gun will shoot where.

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86




----------



## Destranator

Beast said:


> Point your helmet HMS and the gun will shoot where.







Why did CCTV blur out the barrel? 

Seriously, why have BA not procured Z-10s already? Seems like a no-brainer procurement to me.
@Bilal9 @Michael Corleone @UKBengali @ghost250 @Shorisrip @leonblack08 @BanglarBagh @The Ronin 

They can get Western ones as well afterwards but those will never be bought in large numbers due to costs.

Attack helicopters will be vital for Bangladesh's territorial defence as most of BD soil is untankable.


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Point your helmet HMS and the gun will shoot where.


Very old version...


----------



## Michael Corleone

Al-Ansar said:


> View attachment 646641
> 
> Why did CCTV blur out the barrel?
> 
> Seriously, why have BA not procured Z-10s already? Seems like a no-brainer procurement to me.
> @Bilal9 @Michael Corleone @UKBengali
> 
> They can get Western ones as well afterwards but those will never be bought in large numbers due to costs.
> 
> Attack helicopters will be vital for Bangladesh's territorial defence as most of BD soil is untankable.


Nothing will be bought in large numbers. They’ll only be bought to meet deterrence requirements

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## Destranator

Michael Corleone said:


> Nothing will be bought in large numbers. They’ll only be bought to meet deterrence requirements


Sure but Western ones will be much more expensive and therefore much less affordable.

We can easily afford 50 Z-10s.


----------



## Michael Corleone

Al-Ansar said:


> Sure but Western ones will be much more expensive and therefore much less affordable.
> 
> We can easily afford 50 Z-10s.


Yeah but they won’t match western hardware performance.

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## Destranator

Michael Corleone said:


> Yeah but they won’t match western hardware performance.


Maybe but they can certainly "out perform" what we have right now which is nothing.
BA can get a squadron or two of Western ones afterwards to supplement.

In a ground war copter attrition is inevitable. You will need them in numbers regardless of what you choose to operate.

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## Beast

Michael Corleone said:


> Yeah but they won’t match western hardware performance.


That is a perception only. Which western one? Euro tiger ,Augusta or obsolete Mi-28? Or maybe they are no considered western.

If you ask me to choose between 7 Z-10 vs 3 apache. I will take the Z-10.

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Bilal9

Al-Ansar said:


> View attachment 646642
> 
> Why did CCTV blur out the barrel?
> 
> Seriously, why have BA not procured Z-10s already? Seems like a no-brainer procurement to me.
> @Bilal9 @Michael Corleone @UKBengali @ghost250 @Shorisrip @leonblack08 @BanglarBagh @The Ronin
> 
> They can get Western ones as well afterwards but those will never be bought in large numbers due to costs.
> 
> Attack helicopters will be vital for Bangladesh's territorial defence as most of BD soil is untankable.



I think by this time Apache may be a done deal for the Army.

But we need to wait for official announcement.

There are tons of choices when it comes to attack Helos.

Every first/second world country has made one, even South Africa. Heck Indians have one too- besides Chinese.

However that does not mean you spring for a platform because of one factor, namely cost.

Helos are complex platforms, attack helos even more so. There are the questions of weapons and armament integration, flight envelopes (upside down flight), sensor suites (Over the Horizon targeting by one or many helos for specific missions), the whole package.

And there is also the question of testing these platforms, on that count Z10 and Z19 are brand new. They are not proven, yet.

Maybe that is the reason a lot of the client armies are waiting on these Helos.

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @ 中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 647258
> View attachment 647259
> 
> Via @ 中国兵器试验 from Weixin


Why are the Chinese characters so cartoonish on the refueling truck lol


----------



## lcloo

Figaro said:


> Why are the Chinese characters so cartoonish on the refueling truck lol


I guess it is meant to be standing out and eye catching, so that the message will be noticed.

The message means "Strictly prohibiting Smoking & Flame", or "Fire Hazard".

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## ILC

Wonder how many Z-10/Z-19 were made, and how many are built every year.


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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## leviathan

ILC said:


> Wonder how many Z-10/Z-19 were made, and how many are built every year.


Z-10 should be over 400 by now. 50 per year.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @刀尖舞者 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国军网 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

By 王十一










Via @帧察点 from Weixin

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## IblinI

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 651134
> 
> By 王十一
> 
> 
> View attachment 651136
> 
> View attachment 651135
> 
> Via @帧察点 from Weixin


New air to ground missile equivalent of Spike nlos sucessfully test last month.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 650155
> View attachment 650156
> View attachment 650157
> View attachment 650158
> View attachment 650159
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin


----------



## JSCh

*China test fires new ‘world-leading’ helicopter missile*
By Liu Xuanzun Source: Global Times Published: 2020/7/15 18:48:41



A cluster of helicopters attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA Western Theater Command lift off for a flight training exercise in early March, 2020. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn

China recently test launched a new type of helicopter-based air-to-ground missile, which is at a world-leading level, according to the weapon's developers.

The missile is likely to excel at range, accuracy and power, making it a nightmare for hostile tanks and fortifications, aviation experts said on Wednesday.

An undisclosed type of helicopter conducted the test firing of the missile at a test site in Alxa, North China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region on June 22, reported China Aviation News, a newspaper affiliated with the state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC), on Tuesday.

The missile accurately hit its target, marking the successful, first test launch of the missile, the report said.

"In the whole world, [the missile] is in a leading position," the report quoted an unidentified test employee as saying.

The report did not reveal the new missile's designation or its capabilities.

Fu Qianshao, a Chinese military aviation expert, told the Global Times on Wednesday that in order to be called "world-leading," the air-to-ground missile must have a very long effective range, an advanced guidance system that enables very high accuracy, and a very powerful warhead that can penetrate a tank's thick armor.

It is not surprising that China's new missiles have become world leaders after seeing the performances of previous missiles like the HJ series, Fu said.

The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) operates multiple types of attack helicopters, including the Z-10 and Z-19, both of which were recently upgraded.

According to a photo released by PLA's 80th Group Army in February, an upgraded Z-10 featured exhaust openings that face upward instead of outward, which experts said will make it harder to target by infrared sensors.

The Z-19, lighter than the Z-10, saw an extra millimeter-wave fire control radar installed on the top of its rotor at the Fifth China Helicopter Exposition in Tianjin in October 2019. The new radar can give the chopper the capability to search and track targets over long distances in complex weather conditions day and night, and provide accurate targeting data for guided weapon systems.

Among other weapons and equipment, many Z-10 attack helicopters were reportedly mobilized to western China's plateau regions for drills amid border tensions with India.

When equipped with the new missile, the PLA's helicopters will become even deadlier, particularly to enemy tanks, armored vehicles and fortifications, experts said.

China is also building amphibious assault ships that can carry helicopters and extend their capabilities across seas, analysts noted.

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 655346
> 
> Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo


Terrible PS.


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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 655786
> View attachment 655787
> View attachment 655788
> View attachment 655789
> View attachment 655790
> View attachment 655791
> View attachment 655792
> View attachment 655793
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

Via @WANGSHIYIFOTO from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 657050
> View attachment 657051
> 
> Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




A new seeker on this KD-10?

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 657050
> View attachment 657051
> 
> Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo







Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> A new seeker on this KD-10?








In comparison with the KD-10 launcher picture, the new missile may have the new missile pylon.

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## lcloo

Deino said:


> A new seeker on this KD-10?


According to update by Huitong the new missile is called BA-21:-

_The latest video (July 2020) indicated that *Z-10A* is capable of firing the MMW guided BA-21 fire-and-forget ATGM similar to American AGM-114L.
- Last Updated 7/30/20_

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 658393
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290703624855846921@Deino, added armour plates are installed already.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290703624855846921@Deino, added armour plates are installed already.
> View attachment 658536




Oh well ... I need new glasses 

Thanks for the correction.

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## Deino

The full video showing the PLA Army Aviation Z-10A firing the the MMW-guided KD-10 or new ATGM has now emerged and as expected it shows it in cooperation with MMR-equipped Z-19A.

https://video.h5.weibo.cn/1034:4535042433810478/4535059921242858

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## lcloo

More on the new MMR missile, and is that a targeting MMR radar pod below the missiles? Can't see mast top radar.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290703624855846921@Deino, added armour plates are installed already.
> View attachment 658536


So when Pakistan take the first delivery of these Z-10ME from China...


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## Figaro

python-000 said:


> So when Pakistan take the first delivery of these Z-10ME from China...


I assume these Z-10MEs would have to go through evaluation trials again ... if not, then most likely after the one year deadline extended to the T-129 expires.


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## python-000

Figaro said:


> I assume these Z-10MEs would have to go through evaluation trials again ... if not, then most likely after the one year deadline extended to the T-129 expires.


Hmmm, or may be we can go for both platforms...


----------



## ozranger

Deino said:


> The full video showing the PLA Army Aviation Z-10A firing the the MMW-guided KD-10 or new ATGM has now emerged and as expected it shows it in cooperation with MMR-equipped Z-19A.
> 
> https://video.h5.weibo.cn/1034:4535042433810478/4535059921242858
> 
> View attachment 659381
> View attachment 659382



Seems like the Z-19's radar detected the target, passed on the target message to Z-10 by data-link and Z-10's computer programmed a cruise path to the missile.

Then the missile was fired and flied along the path until its millimetre band seeker locked onto the target. 

It's quite likely a long range missile.

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> The full video showing the PLA Army Aviation Z-10A firing the the MMW-guided KD-10 or new ATGM has now emerged and as expected it shows it in cooperation with MMR-equipped Z-19A.
> 
> https://video.h5.weibo.cn/1034:4535042433810478/4535059921242858
> 
> View attachment 659381
> View attachment 659382





lcloo said:


> More on the new MMR missile, and is that a targeting MMR radar pod below the missiles? Can't see mast top radar.
> 
> View attachment 659439
> View attachment 659440

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## LKJ86

python-000 said:


> So when Pakistan take the first delivery of these Z-10ME from China...


They are not Z-10ME.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> They are not Z-10ME.


So where are they bro...!!!


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## LKJ86



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## flowerfan2020

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 660233


Wow! use all newest heli for Aviation Academy training。


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @Armstrong的空军之翼 from Weibo

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 660898
> 
> Via @Armstrong的空军之翼 from Weibo


Looks more like a blend of Z-10 and Z-19.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 660898
> 
> Via @Armstrong的空军之翼 from Weibo


LKJ86@ i think it is a very old pic may be the first mockup of Z-10...


----------



## LKJ86

python-000 said:


> LKJ86@ i think it is a very old pic may be the first mockup of Z-10...


No, it is Z-19.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> No, it is Z-19.


No way bro, i supposed it was a old mockup of Z-10 but i am quite surprised that it is Z-19 ok LKJ89@ kindly can you tell us about latest status of Z-10ME...


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


>


Funny how there are still posters here on PDF who believe the Z-10 cannot operate at high altitudes ... and yet everyday we get Z-10 exercises at altitudes between 4000 and 5000 meters. So much for the dumb underpowered engine speculation lol.

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 662645
> View attachment 662647
> 
> Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin


Who are these visiting young women? Are they aerospace engineering students? Some are beautiful.


----------



## samsara

LKJ86 said:


>


_Spotted a brave sea bird (seagull !?) was flying around at the end of video clip _


----------



## Beast

Figaro said:


> Funny how there are still posters here on PDF who believe the Z-10 cannot operate at high altitudes ... and yet everyday we get Z-10 exercises at altitudes between 4000 and 5000 meters. So much for the dumb underpowered engine speculation lol.


They will claim Z-10 can operate at high attitude with zero payload and ferry range of 100km just for show only... Lol


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## Beast

samsara said:


> _Spotted a brave sea bird (seagull !?) was flying around at the end of video clip _
> 
> View attachment 662674


Z-10 in fact is one of the most quiet, if not the most quiet gunship in world service. This is to preserve the element of surprise against enemy. When low attitude terrain hugging or forest ambush.

The seagull flying near it proves that.

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 663897
> View attachment 663898
> View attachment 663899
> View attachment 663900
> View attachment 663901
> View attachment 663902
> View attachment 663903
> View attachment 663904
> View attachment 663905
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin


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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 666647


Can you provide a translation?


----------



## IblinI

Figaro said:


> Can you provide a translation?


The new heavy attack heli is not too far away, but then it also means its is still going to be a conventional design.

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## Figaro

IblinI said:


> The new heavy attack heli is not too far away, but then it also means its is still going to be a conventional design.


It is supposed to be a successor to the Z-10?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Z10 is like Cobra. I think they are talking about something to go against the Apache.


Figaro said:


> It is supposed to be a successor to the Z-10?

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## IblinI

Figaro said:


> It is supposed to be a successor to the Z-10?


Because there was rumor circulating about the new attack helicopter being a "raider" alike design.


----------



## Deino

IblinI said:


> Because there was rumor circulating about the new attack helicopter being a "raider" alike design.




Wow ... could you please share a full translation of the text above?


----------



## Figaro

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Z10 is like Cobra. I think they are talking about something to go against the Apache.


The PLAGF definitely needs a heavy armed helicopter like the Apache or the Ka-52. The Z-10 was designed to be a light/medium helicopter and thus is not heavily armed or armored enough IMO.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Figaro said:


> The PLAGF definitely needs a heavy armed helicopter like the Apache or the Ka-52. The Z-10 was designed to be a light/medium helicopter and thus is not heavily armed or armored enough IMO.


What I dont understand is why would the Chinese make two similar but different designs to fill same role of the helicopter i.e the Z19 and the Z10??

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## IblinI

Deino said:


> Wow ... could you please share a full translation of the text above?


"Though the long anticipated new heavy attack heli is not too far away, but at the same time it means the design is still based on the existing and mature platform out there".
If it's something like raider, obviously more time will be needed.

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## Figaro

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What I dont understand is why would the Chinese make two similar but different designs to fill same role of the helicopter i.e the Z19 and the Z10??


To be honest me neither. The Z-10 is IMHO more fit to be a scout/recon helicopter than an attack helicopter given its compliment. Hopefully once this new heavy helicopter comes online, the Z-10 will be relegated to the Z-19s role.


IblinI said:


> "Though the long anticipated new heavy attack heli is not too far away, but at the same time it means the design is still based on the existing and mature platform out there".
> If it's something like raider, obviously more time will be needed.


Please tell me he is not saying the new heavy attack helicopter will be based on the Z-10. There are inherent design limitations to the Z-10 that make it not suitable to carry large ordinances.


----------



## IblinI

Figaro said:


> To be honest me neither. The Z-10 is IMHO more fit to be a scout/recon helicopter than an attack helicopter given its compliment. Hopefully once this new heavy helicopter comes online, the Z-10 will be relegated to the Z-19s role.
> 
> Please tell me he is not saying the new heavy attack helicopter will be based on the Z-10. There are inherent design limitations to the Z-10 that make it not suitable to carry large ordinances.


Z-10 is still receiving more upgrade.

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## IblinI

Figaro said:


> Please tell me he is not saying the new heavy attack helicopter will be based on the Z-10. There are inherent design limitations to the Z-10 that make it not suitable to carry large ordinances.


I guess it's more like J10 to J20 road map, They don't just jump on something totally different over night.

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## LKJ86

Via @人民前线 from Weixin


----------



## Figaro

Xi Jinping wearing the HMD inside the Z-10


https://imgur.com/GmX8S3H

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## Brainsucker

Maybe a Z-10 with better engine, better payload, better armor. What else?

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## jaybird

Brainsucker said:


> Maybe a Z-10 with better engine, better payload, better armor. What else?




Since it also mention about imitation of conventional and mature design similar to current foreign country's attack helicopter design. If you look at history which country's weapon system China like to imitate the most..... It will obviously look like something of a hybrid between Apache AH-64 plus Z-10 if I'm a betting man. There will probably another round of COPY !! Stolen wave coming when the new Chinese heavy attack helicopter is unveiled in the military watch community soon.

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## Brainsucker

jaybird said:


> Since it also mention about imitation of conventional and mature design similar to current foreign country's attack helicopter design. If you look at history which country's weapon system China like to imitate the most..... It will obviously look like something of a hybrid between Apache AH-64 plus Z-10 if I'm a betting man. There will probably another round of COPY !! Stolen wave coming when the new Chinese heavy attack helicopter is unveiled in the military watch community soon.



But well, heavier = better engine. Without that, it won't fly.


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## LKJ86

Brainsucker said:


> But well, heavier = better engine. Without that, it won't fly.


There is a better engine WZ-10, being used by Z-20 now.

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## Figaro

Brainsucker said:


> But well, heavier = better engine. Without that, it won't fly.


The 1600 kw engine is already being used in the Z-20. The Z-10s limitations have nothing to do with availability of more powerful engines but with its design. I'm sure the latest WZ-9 variant, which should produce in the range of 1200 to 1300 kw, is more than sufficient for the Z-10 ... otherwise they could have placed the WZ-10 engine in there, whose 1600 kw power would have been extremely overkill for a medium attack helicopter. OTOH, its basically guaranteed the engine for the heavy attack heli will be the WZ-10.

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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> The 1600 kw engine is already being used in the Z-20. The Z-10s limitations have nothing to do with availability of more powerful engines but with its design. I'm sure the latest WZ-9 variant, which should produce in the range of 1200 to 1300 kw, is more than sufficient for the Z-10 ... otherwise they could have placed the WZ-10 engine in there, whose 1600 kw power would have been extremely overkill for a medium attack helicopter.



The Z-10 is an underpowered platform with compromised armor additions, lack of a MMW radar, light weapons payload, and worse high altitude performance compared to even the LCH.

Keep in mind that even the Pakistani Army found the Z-10 to be subpar to their minimum requirements.

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> The Z-10 is an underpowered platform with compromised armor additions, lack of a MMW radar, light weapons payload, and worse high altitude performance compared to even the LCH.
> 
> Keep in mind that even the Pakistani Army found the Z-10 to be subpar to their minimum requirements.




Oh come on ... no need to bring that lame LCH into this discussion.

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Oh come on ... no need to bring that lame LCH into this discussion.



Just making a point, nothing more nothing less.

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## Figaro

Akasa said:


> The Z-10 is an underpowered platform with compromised armor additions, lack of a MMW radar, light weapons payload,
> 
> Keep in mind that even the Pakistani Army found the Z-10 to be subpar to their minimum requirements.


There is no evidence current Z-10s are underpowered. It is true that the initial Z-10s which entered service had standard WZ-9s with only around 900 kw of output, which indeed was underpowered. But starting from 2015, all Z-10s have been upgraded to 1100 kw and more than likely the current Z-10s with additional armor plating has over 1200 kw, which is more than sufficient. If the Z-10 seriously needed immense power output, it could have easily gone for the WZ-16, which is powering the Z-20 and has over 1600 kw. But that is like sticking the WS-10 on the JF-17.


Akasa said:


> and worse high altitude performance compared to even the LCH.


Have you not seen the Z-10 conducting exercises on the 5000+ meter Tibetan plateau? These have become routine in the past few years. The Z-10 not being able to perform in high altitudes is some stupid rumor that was never true to begin with, even when it had underpowered engines.

Regarding the HAL LCH, this reminds me of the time when you said the Kaveri was better than the WS-10 .


Akasa said:


> Just making a point, nothing more nothing less.


Well the points you are making are pretty poor.

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## IblinI

As Yankeessama stated in his latest article, it seems that we shall see the new heavy attack helicopter very soon.

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## ZeEa5KPul

IblinI said:


> As Yankeessama stated in his latest article, it seems that we shall see the new heavy attack helicopter very soon.
> 
> View attachment 668730


It was perfectly predictable that the PLA would take this route ever since all the pieces for a heavy attack helo were developed. The PLA is swimming in money so the conversation between the SOEs and the PLA reps goes something like this
SOE: So, which will it be?
PLA: All.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> It was perfectly predictable that the PLA would take this route ever since all the pieces for a heavy attack helo were developed. The PLA is swimming in money so the conversation between the SOEs and the PLA reps goes something like this
> SOE: So, which will it be?
> PLA: All.


To be fair though, the PLAGF receives the least priority/funding out of any combat branch ... this is really good news on the other hand since a heavy Chinese attack helicopter is *very* over due. Many of us have been waiting for this since the 2000s.

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## LKJ86

Via @Top-Cars from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @兵工科技 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 672097
> View attachment 672098
> View attachment 672099
> View attachment 672100
> View attachment 672101
> View attachment 672102
> 
> Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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----------



## Figaro

Via Temstar ... illustration of Z-10 in combat in Ladakh

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## LKJ86

Via @内地小天王23456 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 675541
> 
> Via @内地小天王23456 from Weibo


@LKJ86 you are the Best & the most relibale source form China bro,

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## gangsta_rap

Figaro said:


> Via Temstar ... illustration of Z-10 in combat in Ladakh
> View attachment 674770


wow lol - i can wrecks of arjun and t-90 tanks, along with a downed su-30.
a jf-17 is flying in the background too

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Death_Angels

CWhy China doesn't build heavy class helicopters


----------



## 925boy

Death_Angels said:


> CWhy China doesn't build heavy class helicopters


heavier helicopters might be more likely to be shot down/countered because they will be slower? i dunno but i do agree, i'm seeing nice but light attack helicopters...


----------



## LKJ86

Death_Angels said:


> CWhy China doesn't build heavy class helicopters


Why do you think that China doesn't build heavy class helicopters?


----------



## Death_Angels

[QUOTE = "LKJ86, gönderi: 12744291, üye: 188772"]
Neden Çin'in ağır sınıf helikopterler yapmadığını düşünüyorsunuz?
[/ALINTI]

AhOh, I mean like MI-28


----------



## LKJ86

Death_Angels said:


> [QUOTE = "LKJ86, gönderi: 12744291, üye: 188772"]
> Neden Çin'in ağır sınıf helikopterler yapmadığını düşünüyorsunuz?
> [/ALINTI]
> 
> AhOh, I mean like MI-28


China is developing something similar to AH-64.

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> China is developing something similar to AH-64.



Didn't "yankeesama" say that the next-gen Chinese "heavy" helicopter will be unveiled soon?


----------



## Death_Angels

[QUOTE = "LKJ86, gönderi: 12744318, üye: 188772"]
Çin, AH-64'e benzer bir şey geliştiriyor.
[/ALINTI]

thank you for the answer


----------



## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> Didn't "yankeesama" say that the next-gen Chinese "heavy" helicopter will be unveiled soon?


Does it contradict what I said???


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Does it contradict what I said???



I'm not meaning to contradict, just confirming that what I heard is accurately-translated.


----------



## juj06750

LKJ86 said:


> China is developing something similar to AH-64.


then again, western media would call it another AH64 copycat soon after china makes it;
no matter what china makes itself, US and western media want to call 'copycat'
they NEVER recognize chinese advanced technology;
actually they don't want so because of politics

so it's not matter of technology;
now we need to change a view of how we see china;
china is poweful country with money and technology;
and it can make anything (if necessary) without any help from outside;
when it needs something, it studies and finally makes it;
and it is why china is so powerful

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## LKJ86

Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 679691
> View attachment 679692
> View attachment 679693
> View attachment 679694
> View attachment 679695
> 
> Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 679691
> View attachment 679692
> View attachment 679693
> View attachment 679694
> View attachment 679695
> 
> Via @80强军号 from Weixin

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## Death_Angels

BirDoes he have a chance against American helicopters


----------



## lcloo

Death_Angels said:


> BirDoes he have a chance against American helicopters


Helicopters don't fight against helicopters.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @南疆号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @西南雄师号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4536070130302991?mid=4536070856779505

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

The Tibet/Xizang LH Brigade (西藏陆航旅) has received its first Z-10 helicopters and as it sees also Z-20.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @铁肩重拳 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

Unconfirmed rumor suggests that the "next-generation" PLA attack helicopter is just another souped-up Z-20.



https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2676098-1-1.html



LOL

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> Unconfirmed rumor suggests that the "next-generation" PLA attack helicopter is just another souped-up Z-20.
> 
> 
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2676098-1-1.html
> 
> 
> 
> LOL




Is there an image attached? At least I see a sign that tells me ...





... but I'm always restricted to access.


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> Is there an image attached? At least I see a sign that tells me ...
> View attachment 700050
> 
> ... but I'm always restricted to access.


It is a different class of armed utility helicopter from the heavy attack helicopter. just a Z20 with heavy weapon loads. It is apple and orange. Heavy attack helicopter is a separate project from this "Z20W". Picture depict US helicopters.

Narrative "It is something like these, you will see them soon."

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## LKJ86

Via @航空物语 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @喀喇昆仑卫士 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.js7tv.cn and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西南雄师号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @忠诚号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @亮剑东南 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @陆军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南疆号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南疆号角 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 713096
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




I slowly get the feeling that this MMR is not yet in full service and is still being in evaluation within the 71st LH-Brigade since you only see these two Z-19A with different radars.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> I slowly get the feeling that this MMR is not yet in full service and is still being in evaluation within the 71st LH-Brigade since you only see these two Z-19A with different radars.


I don't think MMR is needed to equipped with all scout and attack helo. Even USAF apache with a few carries MMR. They work in team with network.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> I don't think MMR is needed to equipped with all scout and attack helo. Even USAF apache with a few carries MMR. They work in team with network.




I agree, but my point is that we only see these two helicopters equipped with them and both have a different radar dome.


----------



## ozranger

Deino said:


> I agree, but my point is that we only see these two helicopters equipped with them and both have a different radar dome.



I saw the tweets. I think having mast mounted radars is of low priority to them. So they chose to test those radars made by different competitors longer than most people would have thought.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @ 西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @中部战区号角 from Weixin

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## SD 10

A question, WHy z19 has no gun?


----------



## Beast

SD 10 said:


> A question, WHy z19 has no gun?


Is is a scout/attack helo. It's mission is to provide standoff attack if encounter armour column. And reconnaissance are it's primary mission with command and control of other units.

Head on front to front hard fight will be left for Z-10 which is heavy with thicker armour protection.

A gun pod can be installed on pylon if gun is really needed.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

SD 10 said:


> A question, WHy z19 has no gun?



It is mainly for recon. Sort of like OH-1 and OH-58.









Kawasaki OH-1 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org













Bell OH-58 Kiowa - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @光荣e家 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

Via @忠诚号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via 人民陆军

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## LKJ86



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## python-000

@LKJ86 Hi bro is Pakistan accuaring Z-10ME from China...!!!


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

python-000 said:


> @LKJ86 Hi bro is Pakistan accuaring Z-10ME from China...!!!



No. Pakistan buy T-129 from Turkey. Will take some years for engine to get ready.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Z-10ME on trial

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## Surya 1

One Z 10 crashed recently due to stfuctural dailure.


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Surya 1 said:


> One Z 10 crashed recently due to stfuctural dailure.



Happens in every air force.









Two injured in Apache crash at Fort Rucker


The U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center said Friday morning that its personnel would lead an investigation into the incident.




www.armytimes.com


----------



## Surya 1

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Happens in every air force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two injured in Apache crash at Fort Rucker
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center said Friday morning that its personnel would lead an investigation into the incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armytimes.com



Did I say that it doesn't happen elsewhere?


----------



## LKJ86



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## python-000

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Z-10ME on trial


But were these trial are going on & thare engine nozle are change.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via Weibo

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Well ... what is this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398923388505268227
But during what event was it unveiled? ... is it just a fancy concept unveiling show or are these real proposals?


----------



## Beast

Deino said:


> Well ... what is this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398923388505268227
> But during what event was it unveiled? ... is it just a fancy concept unveiling show or are these real proposals?


I saw a stealthy Z-20 nearby. I am more interested in that one.


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> I saw a stealthy Z-20 nearby. I am more interested in that one.




Indeed ... but any more info available what show or exhibition this is?

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @斯文的威猛 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 758402
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weibo




Oh two Z-10MEs?? That explains why we've seen some images with and other without the upward facing exausts.

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## LKJ86

Via 央广军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Polestar 2

Watch from 14 mins 30 s..

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## Deino

Wow  … is just a model or a real preview of the new combat helicopter?






PS/Upps … just this old model with new paint

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## python-000

Ok now so when China deliverd Z-10ME to Pakistan...

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## ARMalik

python-000 said:


> Ok now so when China deliverd Z-10ME to Pakistan...



Recently.


----------



## IblinI

ARMalik said:


> Recently.


Huh?


----------



## SD 10

ARMalik said:


> Recently.


what?


----------



## Zarvan

python-000 said:


> Ok now so when China deliverd Z-10ME to Pakistan...


Reports are coming that Z-10 ME may come soon.


----------



## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Reports are coming that Z-10 ME may come soon.




Pardon and you know my scepticism ... what's the source for this?


----------



## jaybird

Zarvan said:


> Reports are coming that Z-10 ME may come soon.




Z-10ME coming as another round of evaluation/trial in Pakistan or induction into service though... If it was just limited numbers like last time with the first version of Z-10 for evaluation and not bought in numbers, it might sent back again later time after evaluation finish. If remember correctly Pakistan got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time.


----------



## Deino

jaybird said:


> Z-10ME coming as another round of evaluation/trial in Pakistan or induction into service though... If it was just limited numbers like last time with the first version of Z-10 for evaluation and not bought in numbers, it might sent back again later time after evaluation finish. If remember correctly Pakistan got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time.




Again nit-picking! They were allowed to test them but not really "got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time"


----------



## jaybird

Deino said:


> Again nit-picking! They were allowed to test them but not really "got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time"



Yes, they got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time for evaluation in Pakistan, and later sent back to China. I didn't say it was bought or gifted.

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## Deino

jaybird said:


> Yes, they got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time for evaluation in Pakistan, and later sent back to China. I didn't say it was bought or gifted.




I know my friend, I know ... but I also know how some over-enthusiastic fan-boys mis-read whatever fits their dreams.


----------



## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> Pardon and you know my scepticism ... what's the source for this?


Same scepticism here, I don't think Z-10ME is on the agenda, they have extended the T129 delivery with Turkey earlier this year and I guess they may renew the extension anytime.









Pakistan gives another extension to helicopter deal with Turkey


“We have obtained a six-month extension from Pakistan,” Turkey’s top procurement official says.



www.dawn.com


----------



## Zarvan

jaybird said:


> Z-10ME coming as another round of evaluation/trial in Pakistan or induction into service though... If it was just limited numbers like last time with the first version of Z-10 for evaluation and not bought in numbers, it might sent back again later time after evaluation finish. If remember correctly Pakistan got two Z-10 and one Z-19 last time.


Induction in service. We won't be going for really big numbers but I am expecting around 30 to 36 of them. Plus Pakistan taking MI 35 numbers to 20 that is my assessment. Z-10 ME are coming


----------



## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Induction in service. We won't be going for really big numbers but I am expecting around 30 to 36 of them. Plus Pakistan taking MI 35 numbers to 20 that is my assessment. Z-10 ME are coming




Again, may I ask what's the source for this? I must admit system-wise it is no surprise and I slowly get the feeling there is a whole package on its way to Pakistan, however I haven't heard anything about this.

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## Shotgunner51

WZ-10 attack helicopters attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 80th Group Army lift off for a live-fire training exercise in early December, 2021.

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## beijingwalker

*A VIEW TO A KILL . China shows off high-tech Z-10 attack chopper helmets that can aim deadly machine guns using pilot’s EYESIGHT in chilling vid*


Aliki Kraterou

10:07 ET, Jan 14 2022

CHINA has shown off its ultra-high-tech attack chopper helmets that can aim killer machine guns using the pilot's eyesight.

Chilling footage shows the helmets with the self-aiming function being controlled by the pilot's eye movements.





The high-tech helmets can aim guns towards a target depending on the pilot's eyesight 





The chilling video shows the attack choppers during exercises
The video, shared by the Chinese military on social media site Weibo, demonstrates how the deadly helmet worked during combat training.

The high tech helmet was also used by the pilots of the Z-10 attack chopper, during military exercises, according to the Global Times.

The Z-10, which is equipped with the latest technology, was used during exercises near Taiwan last year.

The outlet states that the "specially made" helmet "can display all key parameters and battlefield dynamics directly onto the visor" and the pilot can use it to aim "as the weapons will point to wherever the pilot is looking to through the helmet."

It comes after the UK, Russia, the US, China and France released a rare joint statement admitting "no one can win a nuclear war" amid fears of an upcoming World War 3.














China's chopper helmets that can aim machine guns using pilot’s EYESIGHT


CHINA has shown off its ultra-high-tech attack chopper helmets that can aim killer machine guns using the pilot’s eyesight. Chilling footage shows the helmets with the self-aiming function be…




www.the-sun.com

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----------



## Bleek

Save this equipment for the Americans if needed

The Indians are enough using this:

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## beijingwalker

*A VIEW TO A KILL . China shows off high-tech Z-10 attack chopper helmets that can aim deadly machine guns using pilot’s EYESIGHT in chilling vid*

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## Hamartia Antidote

beijingwalker said:


> *A VIEW TO A KILL . China shows off high-tech Z-10 attack chopper helmets that can aim deadly machine guns using pilot’s EYESIGHT in chilling vid*



Why is he moving his head so much if it uses eyesight.


----------



## Polestar 2

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Why is he moving his head if it uses eyesight.


How do you achieved 90 degrees bore sight using eyeball if u are not moving your head?

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## Hamartia Antidote

Polestar 2 said:


> How do you achieved 90 degrees bore sight using eyeball if u are not moving your head?



You must be flying really slow if you are shooting something at your 90. Let's have the video showing that eye tech quickly engaging multiple targets that are > 100 meters away in the 120 arc in front of you with a crosshair instead of showing the guy moving his entire head.


----------



## Longhorn

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "if looks could kill".

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----------



## Super Falcon

Pakistan should have pted for KA 52 aligator helicopters


----------



## Polestar 2

Hamartia Antidote said:


> You must be flying really slow if you are shooting something at your 90. Let's use that eye tech to quickly engage the multiple targets that are > 100 meters away in the 120 arc in front of you when you are at speed and barely moving your head.


I think that is the purpose. Heli are designed to hover at stand still and then pick the prey against a specific area for search and destroy in a complex urban terrain. Of course that case will be against light armed infantry or militant.


----------



## Microsoft

This isn't anything new US has technology like this for A-A missiles even.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Polestar 2 said:


> I think that is the purpose. Heli are designed to hover at stand still and then pick the prey against a specific area for search and destroy in a complex urban terrain. Of course that case will be against light armed infantry or militant.



I don't think countries spend millions of R&D and procurement money on helicopters just to mainly handle "lightly armed infantry".


----------



## Polestar 2

Hamartia Antidote said:


> I don't think countries spend millions of R&D and procurement money on helicopters just to mainly handle "lightly armed infantry".


Yes, USA.


----------



## Hamartia Antidote

Polestar 2 said:


> Yes, USA.



…well using that logic I guess China made tanks just to squash domestic riots…and rioters


----------



## Polestar 2

Hamartia Antidote said:


> …well I guess China made tanks just to squash domestic riots…


Isn't US all along been fighting militants and rugged Taliban for recent past 20 years?

While squash rioters is last 30 years. So your assessment is wrong.

Yes, US weapon need to fight light armed militant.


----------



## Polestar 2

Microsoft said:


> This isn't anything new US has technology like this for A-A missiles even.


I am sure it's new. AA missile is using infra heat sensor to lock onto target where sky is clear, easy to pick up target. 

While this is using geometry position and sensitivity of the user to rapidly position the gun to where he wanted. They are both different concept. Feel free to prove your point by demostrate similar such weapon from US or European. I dare to say, Chinese is first to put it into operation.

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## Oldman1

Polestar 2 said:


> I am sure it's new. AA missile is using infra heat sensor to lock onto target where sky is clear, easy to pick up target.
> 
> While this is using geometry position and sensitivity of the user to rapidly position the gun to where he wanted. They are both different concept. Feel free to prove your point by demostrate similar such weapon from US or European. I dare to say, Chinese is first to put it into operation.



Huh how is this new? From what I'm seeing its still having to turn his head along with the gun. Don't see him just moving his eyes only and the gun tracks as well.

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## beijingwalker

Oldman1 said:


> Huh how is this new? From what I'm seeing its still having to turn his head along with the gun. Don't see him just moving his eyes only and the gun tracks as well.


No one said it's new, its a standard equipment for decades, the op one could be an upgraded one with more up to date high tech elements involved.


----------



## Oldman1

beijingwalker said:


> No one said it's new, its a standard equipment for decades, the op one could be an upgraded one with more up to date high tech elements involved.



Well then go check the poster who claims it is. I can quote him.

"I am sure it's new. AA missile is using infra heat sensor to lock onto target where sky is clear, easy to pick up target.

While this is using geometry position and sensitivity of the user to rapidly position the gun to where he wanted. They are both different concept. Feel free to prove your point by demostrate similar such weapon from US or European. I dare to say, Chinese is first to put it into operation. "


----------



## Rafi

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan should have pted for KA 52 aligator helicopters



STFU

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## Leishangthem

Microsoft said:


> This isn't anything new US has technology like this for A-A missiles even.


no they don't,it's different

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## That Guy

Polestar 2 said:


> Isn't US all along been fighting militants and rugged Taliban for recent past 20 years?
> 
> While squash rioters is last 30 years. So your assessment is wrong.
> 
> Yes, US weapon need to fight light armed militant.


Bad logic. These weapons may be used against insurgents, but that was not their primary purpose. Tanks, helicopters and fighter jets are meant to be used against conventional armies. Against insurgents, it's like using a machine gun to kill an ant, it works, but it's impractical.

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## Hamartia Antidote

That Guy said:


> Bad logic. These weapons may be used against insurgents, but that was not their primary purpose. Tanks, helicopters and fighter jets are meant to be used against conventional armies. Against insurgents, it's like using a machine gun to kill an ant, it works, but it's impractical.



Please don't try talking logically to Chinese posters..you aren't going to get far.


Polestar 2 said:


> Isn't US all along been fighting militants and rugged Taliban for recent past 20 years?
> 
> While squash rioters is last 30 years. So your assessment is wrong.
> 
> Yes, US weapon need to fight light armed militant.



Oh I'm sorry...you mean your *old* strategy was to use them to squash civilian rioters but in the last 30 years you have switched to non-civilians...good to know you have changed focus.


----------



## GumNaam

Bleek said:


> Save this equipment for the Americans if needed
> 
> The Indians are enough using this:


well done, she straight up owned his perverted bunghole!


----------



## Riz

Bleek said:


> Save this equipment for the Americans if needed
> 
> The Indians are enough using this:


Hitting indians on eyes is chines favorite tactic and that too on there own soul

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## ARMalik

Don't worry everyone, Hamartia Antidote has eyes that can move 360 Degrees !! It's all good !

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## Ali_Baba

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan should have pted for KA 52 aligator helicopters



How is that better than the Z-10's or T-129's?

KA-52, like most russian platforms right now - are dead ends with no growth potential and questionable long term support ..


----------



## Globenim

Polestar 2 said:


> How do you achieved 90 degrees bore sight using eyeball if u are not moving your head?


He moves his head = its not real eyetracking China bad
He doesnt move his head = the system doesnt support full visual range/bore sight China bad

Coping U.S. posters just acting like dumb clowns for the sake of trolling as usual. This pest is like creationist that just bend reality and read nonsensical bullshit inbetween the lines however they want to always come to the same dumb "conclusion" no matter what and how many contradictings facts they face and flaws in their "logic" have been called out.

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## MajesticPug

Globenim said:


> He moves his head = its not real eyetracking China bad
> He doesnt move his head = the system doesnt support full visual range/bore sight China bad
> 
> Coping U.S. posters just acting like dumb clowns for the sake of trolling as usual. This pest is like creationist that just bend reality and read nonsensical bullshit inbetween the lines however they want to always come to the same dumb "conclusion" no matter what and how many contradictings facts they face and flaws in their "logic" have been called out.



American posters troll either "The Chinese copied our techs" OR "The Chinese only want to suppress the riot". Did they forget Trump ordered American military helicopters flying low to 'scare' the rioters (if the blades cut off some heads, these heads are terrorists)? Oh, wait. That's allowed in the American narratives but any other country doing it is against humanity, freedom, democracy, and downright genocide.


----------



## Trailer23

The BOSS* inspecting the Z-10...back in 2018.






*not referring to Bruce Springsteen

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## Hamartia Antidote

Globenim said:


> He moves his head = its not real eyetracking China bad
> He doesnt move his head = the system doesnt support full visual range/bore sight China bad
> 
> Coping U.S. posters just acting like dumb clowns for the sake of trolling as usual. This pest is like creationist that just bend reality and read nonsensical bullshit inbetween the lines however they want to always come to the same dumb "conclusion" no matter what and how many contradictings facts they face and flaws in their "logic" have been called out.



Or maybe the title is the typical Chinese hyperbole (to get non-tech savy people excited) that doesn't match the facts.
Eyesight tracking...really...


----------



## LKJ86



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## Han Patriot

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Or maybe the title is the typical Chinese hyperbole (to get non-tech savy people excited) that doesn't match the facts.
> Eyesight tracking...really...


Ultimately,cheerleaders are only satisfied when you say America stronk. Lol


----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


>


Hi LKJ86 bro, where have u bin so long i miss u so much on PDF...


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-03/29/content_10144252.htm

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## Beast

Z-10ME export to PA will be signed on June this year. Rumour....

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Z-10ME export to PA will be signed on June this year. Rumour....




Latest image of an updated Z-10ME!

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> Latest image of an updated Z-10ME!
> 
> View attachment 828479


The MMWR is good, PA has those as a requirement for its next gunship.

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> Latest image of an updated Z-10ME!
> 
> View attachment 828479


No more plate armor around the cockpit?

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## python-000

Deino said:


> Latest image of an updated Z-10ME!
> 
> View attachment 828479


Excellent...


----------



## jaybird

If the export to PA rumor story mentioned by Beast is true then this new updated add-on of Milli Metric Wave Radar and other modification could well be the prototype or first picture of the PA Z-10ME.

I remembered lots of PDF members also wanted MMWR on the PA next attack helicopter. Maybe that's one of the official requirement by the PA as well. So, the new version of Z-10ME was modified to that specification. But maybe some of the graphene armor panels have to be removed due to the added weight of MMWR?

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## luciferdd

Bilal. said:


> No more plate armor around the cockpit?


The upward design of exhaust nozzle will cause the engine to lose 10% power+new additional MMR=have to remove the plate armor around the cockpit.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> No more plate armor around the cockpit?


It is a removable piece, can be added or removed as needed.



luciferdd said:


> The upward design of exhaust nozzle will cause the engine to lose 10% power+new additional MMR=have to remove the plate armor around the cockpit.


No idea where you got this idea, the ME variant has significantly more powerful engines than the original Z-10K and Z-10M variants. Exhaust nozzle direction can’t just make the engine less powerful, especially not by an amount that massive, and the MMWR, while adding weight, does not and should not require armor removal unless it’s a COG issue, cannot be a payload issue.

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## Deino

Here a better image …

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## luciferdd

iLION12345_1 said:


> It is a removable piece, can be added or removed as needed.
> 
> 
> No idea where you got this idea, the ME variant has significantly more powerful engines than the original Z-10K and Z-10M variants. Exhaust nozzle direction can’t just make the engine less powerful, especially not by an amount that massive, and the MMWR, while adding weight, does not and should not require armor removal unless it’s a COG issue, cannot be a payload issue.


That design is for reducing infrared signature,but side effect is that it will make the engine less powerful.And surely you can still have those plate armor around the cockpit, but It will affect the flight performance of the Helicopter or you should reduce the fuel to balance it(as i know,wz-10 as an AH have a biggest flight range over the world ).

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## iLION12345_1

luciferdd said:


> That design is for reducing infrared signature,but side effect is it will make the engine less powerful


Again, do you have a source for that? Because it makes no sense. Im aware it’s to reduce the heat signature, but how does that make the engine less powerful and why would they do that in the first place when one of the biggest issues with the older models were weaker engines. And how did you come up with a figure of 10% less power? 

Please don’t spread false information or at least present a source.

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## luciferdd

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, do you have a source for that? Because it makes no sense. Im aware it’s to reduce the heat signature, but how does that make the engine less powerful and why would they do that in the first place when one of the biggest issues with the older models were weaker engines. And how did you come up with a figure of 10% less power?
> 
> Please don’t spread false information or at least present a source.


There will be no official data,the number is come from some reliable military commentators.May be the number is not exactly right,be side effect is truely exist.

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## jaybird

luciferdd said:


> There will be no official data,the number is come from some reliable military commentators.May be the number is not exactly right,be side effect is truely exist.


Could it be the new intake filter that's helping blocking sand and dust entering the engine also somewhat obstruct the air flow to the engine, therefore reducing the efficiency of the engines as well?


----------



## iLION12345_1

jaybird said:


> Could it be the new intake filter that's helping blocking sand and dust entering the engine also somewhat obstruct the air flow to the engine, therefore reducing the efficiency of the engines as well?


I doubt this as well. If the filter is constricting air flow to the point that the engine isn’t getting enough air, then that’s a major design flaw. I can understand where you guys are coming from but these engines and filters are specifically designed for this purpose.



luciferdd said:


> There will be no official data,the number is come from some reliable military commentators.May be the number is not exactly right,be side effect is truely exist.


That just tells me it’s not true and just hearsay or made up. Unless they mean that the more powerful engine was put in specifically to cover for the fact that the filters decrease engine output by decreasing air intake, which while I still doubt, is technically possible. Either way, the number cannot and should not be anywhere near 10%, that would make the Z-10ME underpowered.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




----------



## Abid123

What is the cost of the Z-10?


----------



## Deino

By the way ... any more info on this one?









China’s new military helicopter with innovative design makes 1st flight - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn





via 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511332838200815630
Is this the relevant announcement?



https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/JVBiDpGNai52Q45gAXafWQc

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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## johncliu88

Quick question, is the WZ-19 also available for export too? I don't seem to find any information that this little guy is allowed to export to any foreign country.


----------



## Maula Jatt

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 831379
> View attachment 831380
> View attachment 831381
> View attachment 831382
> View attachment 831383
> View attachment 831384
> View attachment 831385
> View attachment 831386
> View attachment 831387
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


damn they are sexy!!


----------



## ozranger

johncliu88 said:


> Quick question, is the WZ-19 also available for export too? I don't seem to find any information that this little guy is allowed to export to any foreign country.


There is a Z-19E for export.













Z-19E Light Attack Helicopter


The Z-19E light attack helicopter, an export variant of Z-19 Harbin armed and reconnaissance helicopter, performed its maiden flight in…




www.airforce-technology.com

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## johncliu88

ozranger said:


> There is a Z-19E for export.
> View attachment 831622
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z-19E Light Attack Helicopter
> 
> 
> The Z-19E light attack helicopter, an export variant of Z-19 Harbin armed and reconnaissance helicopter, performed its maiden flight in…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airforce-technology.com


Nice picture. According to the spec, it has a 12.7mm machine gun but I don't see it anywhere. Does it need to carry an external gun pod?


----------



## ozranger

johncliu88 said:


> Nice picture. According to the spec, it has a 12.7mm machine gun but I don't see it anywhere. Does it need to carry an external gun pod?


Yes I believe so.


----------



## lcloo

Gun pod for Z-19E. Two gun pods can be carried.

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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 831379
> View attachment 831380
> View attachment 831381
> View attachment 831382
> View attachment 831383
> View attachment 831384
> View attachment 831385
> View attachment 831386
> View attachment 831387
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## lcloo

Z19 armed scout helicopter with milimeter wave radar can be excellent drone destroyer with its AAM and gun.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国军视网 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-04/14/content_10147871.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/16/content_10148505.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @中国兵器试验 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/19/content_10149105.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 中国军视网 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/26/content_10150227.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/29/content_10150749_2.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-04/27/content_10150716.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-04/27/content_4909929.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-04/29/content_10151527.htm


----------



## S10

I think the experience in Ukraine has demonstrated that day time use of attack helicopters against opponents with sufficient anti-air capabilities is very risky. At least a dozen videos of Russian Ka-52, Mi-24, and Mi-28 being shot down by MANPADS had been circulated. It's better to utilize these helicopters in night time raid to fully maximize their safety and effectiveness.

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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/11/content_10154023.htm

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-05/19/content_10156292.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/20/content_10156837.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/03/content_10160183_3.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## Luosifen



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## LKJ86



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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 842783



The Niche of the Z-19 (or a more stealthy derivative; considering the technology has been developed for a stealthy Z-20) could be as EW protection/attack as well as a scout helicopter (that controls drones, including EW drones) to protect troops landings while the Z-10 maybe better at kinetically protecting helicopters landing troops.

This would basically be a platform like the Bell Invictus 360, but with EW pods (especially if the Z-19 derivative also adds stub wings) and more of a focus on EW; to protect against SAMs and Radar guided guns.


----------



## Brainsucker

So, is there any improvement to Z-10 since the last time I asked in here? Are they still the same old Z-10 early version or they have improve this gunship recently?


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/12/content_10162133.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/14/content_10163154_3.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 央广军事


----------



## Abid123

What is it's export price?


----------



## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543562179244445696

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542166095737434112

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-07/07/content_10169537.htm

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-07/11/content_10165825.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 中国军视网 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via 中部号角 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547913884110991361

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## luciferdd

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547913884110991361


It's not testing new missiles, it is that all the old missiles(for example AKD7/9/10 etc) were used up... so you will only find the pic with "new" long-range missiles from than on.In fact PLA had been used this "new" missles years,and they just don't show the pics to any medias before.


----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 862125
> View attachment 862126
> View attachment 862127
> 
> Via 中部号角 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo







Via @Ds走近哈佛 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/yw/2022-07/19/content_10171878.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @枕戈观澜 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-07/28/content_10174023.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @Ds走近哈佛 from Weibo

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## luciferdd



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## Corax

luciferdd said:


> View attachment 866916



Are the MAWS based on radar rather than EOP? typically MAWS are UV or IR based sensors, but those look like radar emitters.

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## ozranger

Corax said:


> Are the MAWS based on radar rather than EOP? typically MAWS are UV or IR based sensors, but those look like radar emitters.


It was reported that they all are AESA radar based MAWS.

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## luciferdd

Corax said:


> Are the MAWS based on radar rather than EOP? typically MAWS are UV or IR based sensors, but those look like radar emitters.


Yes,they are all based on active radar array.

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## Corax

But won't the active emitting AESA based MAWS give away the position of the Z-10, especially to ground based air defence systems? At least with passive EOP based MAWS it doesn't emit any signals and therefore less prone to being detected by air defence systems?

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## Princeps Senatus

Corax said:


> But won't the active emitting AESA based MAWS give away the position of the Z-10, especially to ground based air defence systems? At least with passive EOP based MAWS it doesn't emit any signals and therefore less prone to being detected by air defence systems?


Detection by ESM is the least of an Attack Helicopter like Z-10's concerns.

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## luciferdd

Corax said:


> But won't the active emitting AESA based MAWS give away the position of the Z-10, especially to ground based air defence systems? At least with passive EOP based MAWS it doesn't emit any signals and therefore less prone to being detected by air defence systems?


You forgot the mm-radar on top,comprare to it those mm-radar based maws are not a problem .

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## ozranger

Corax said:


> But won't the active emitting AESA based MAWS give away the position of the Z-10, especially to ground based air defence systems? At least with passive EOP based MAWS it doesn't emit any signals and therefore less prone to being detected by air defence systems?


If you fly the helicopter so low, millimeter band radars facing mostly downward won't trigger any detector in far distance. You only need to worry about the MANPADS launchers probably only tens of meters below, while the rotor noise already reveals your location in such a close distance.

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## LKJ86

Via @白给_ from Weibo

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## Beast

ozranger said:


> If you fly the helicopter so low, millimeter band radars facing mostly downward won't trigger any detector in far distance. You only need to worry about the MANPADS launchers probably only tens of meters below, while the rotor noise already reveals your location in such a close distance.


Z-10 noise emission is the lowest among all Gunship.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 866826
> 
> Via @Ds走近哈佛 from Weibo













Via @Ds走近哈佛

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## ozranger

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 870069
> View attachment 870070
> View attachment 870071
> 
> Via @Ds走近哈佛



It might be the world's first helicopter which equips AESA radars, including the mast mount one, all around the fuselage.

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## johncliu88

Oh man, this baby is fully of teeth. Is this the Z-10ME that was talking about? For Pakistani Army?


----------



## LKJ86

A new variant of Z-10 to make maiden flight.




Via @航空工业昌飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/syjdt/2022-08/18/content_10178973.htm

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-08/24/content_10180162.htm

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## retaxis

what a secy copter


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## LKJ86

Via @海南省航空摄影协会 from Weibo

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564230428453732352

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562275217279533056

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## LKJ86

Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-09/05/content_10181867.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-09/05/content_10182766.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-09/09/content_10183822.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-09/12/content_10184263.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/sydbt/2022-09/11/content_10184134.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/syjdt/2022-09/19/content_10185810.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-09/22/content_10186439.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-10/06/content_10189525.htm

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## Ajamal

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 885362
> View attachment 885363
> 
> Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-10/06/content_10189525.htm



Weighs more than double compared to LCH, yet has less powerful engine. Useless for high altitude operation.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-10/08/content_10189772.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/03/content_10196865.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @军武菌 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-11/08/content_10197849.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-11/16/content_10199684.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Via @Zeyan-Li from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/05/content_10203417_2.htm

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## Horse_Rider

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 903080
> View attachment 903081
> 
> Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/05/content_10203417_2.htm



is this Z-10? Why are they carrying a drop tank? The loadout of weapons would be very little, it seems a few rockets and 4 AGM's? You'd need a lot of these for a heavy anti-armor mission. I also don't see two hardpoints for AAM's?



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 881679
> View attachment 881680
> 
> Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-09/22/content_10186439.htm



This is Z-19 I assume? Still needs heavier engines it seems like. 8 ATGM's and 14 rockets in two pods?


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## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/shouye/2022-12/18/content_4928558.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/19/content_10206589_3.htm


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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/22/content_10207179.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-12/23/content_4928982.htm

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/lj/2022-12/29/content_10208419.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 新华社

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