# PAK-FA takes to the sky!



## Best of the Best

Hey guys check this out T-50 russian 5th generation fighter jet i hve actually heard of it for the 1st time in my life it looks like a cheap copy of the F-22 and it is said that the prototype will fly next year hummmm for me this is new news do check it out the i am giving a link to you guys...


Flight international


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## EagleEyes

Did you read the end?



> *Ã¢â¬ÅThere are some problems with funding for the fifth-generation fighter, but they to a lesser extent apply to the defence ministry rather than to Sukhoi,Ã¢â¬Â Mikhailov says. Ã¢â¬ÅIn parallel, Sukhoi is working on the civilian RRJ, which needs much money. They have taken some funds that might otherwise have gone to the combat aircraft and put them into the RRJ, hence the financial problems.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Nevertheless, Mikhailov says work on SukhoiÃ¢â¬â¢s T-50 next-generation fighter project is Ã¢â¬Ågenerally on trackÃ¢â¬Â, with the airframeÃ¢â¬â¢s configuration now having been frozen. A prototype of the aircraft Ã¢â¬â selected to meet the air forceÃ¢â¬â¢s fifth-generation fighter requirement Ã¢â¬â is expected to fly next year, he says.
> 
> Mikhailov reveals the air force is also considering backing the development of Ã¢â¬Åa lighter aircraft with the same avionics and engine, but with one engine rather than twoÃ¢â¬Â. The lightweight variant would be cheaper to acquire, could fly from shorter airfields and carry four missiles against the T-50Ã¢â¬â¢s maximum of 12, he says. The proposal is linked to an Indian requirement for a new fighter in the 20-25t class.*



The aircraft is set to fly next year. :lips: I believe India is funding it secretly or some what and it will acquire it later on. If successful and true. Pakistan is in deep trouble, and looking at far enough i dont see any chances.  First it was Su-30 now T-50..

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## Kaiser

lol Dont worry Ahsan its just these dumb rumors flighing around on different boards fuelded by Indians. Do you have any clue of how hard it is to make a Fifth-Generation fighter, it cost the U.S so far 50 Billion alone researching stealth and other technology that kind of money no country in the world has including China.


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## Thunder

Oh my god.

I can&#39;t belive you guys actully fell for this. This is just some rumor.

T-50 AKA PAK-FA. Yes that PAK-FA which the indians have&#39;nt even signed for.

Here are some rough drawings

<div class='bbimg'></div>

<div class='bbimg'></div>

But what i belive is that there was this plane paf and chinese are working on. It&#39;s suppose to be delvired by 2008. They say that it&#39;s better then MKI. And that PAF is secertly buying avionces from euroape for such projets. Remember that 600million &#036;&#036; deal with france that musharraf canceld. There might be such secert deals going on.


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## EagleEyes

> _Originally posted by Kaiser_@Jan 31 2006, 04:28 PM
> *lol Dont worry Ahsan its just these dumb rumors flighing around on different boards fuelded by Indians. Do you have any clue of how hard it is to make a Fifth-Generation fighter, it cost the U.S so far 50 Billion alone researching stealth and other technology that kind of money no country in the world has including China.
> [post=5790]Quoted post[/post]​*



I understand that research and development for 5th generation fighter costs a lot of money, and as you pointed that even China doesn&#39;t have that much money so its very unrealistic that someone will be able to build up a 5th generation fighter with stealth. I am with you in this fact, but there are also some fighters out there which are kind of stealthy by low RCS, and their design avoid the radar signals some fighters absorb those signals some dodge it, and those who do neither become target to radars, thus the fighters.

China is building up J-10C people believe that it will be a stealthy aircraft, even though it will be stealthy but i bet its electronics will not be good enough to be a good plane, and the program for J-10C is not even costly.

People sometimes call J-10C a J-XX, J-12, or J-13. Its very secretive, but rumours are on their best, just like this T-50 fighter.

I knew that this fighter was a rumour, but after looking at source i started believing it, could you give me a source that says its rumour? Because the site looks too good to act like a propaganda site.


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## Kaiser

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Feb 1 2006, 12:26 AM
> *I understand that research and development for 5th generation fighter costs a lot of money, and as you pointed that even China doesn&#39;t have that much money so its very unrealistic that someone will be able to build up a 5th generation fighter with stealth. I am with you in this fact, but there are also some fighters out there which are kind of stealthy by low RCS, and their design avoid the radar signals some fighters absorb those signals some dodge it, and those who do neither become target to radars, thus the fighters.
> 
> China is building up J-10C people believe that it will be a stealthy aircraft, even though it will be stealthy but i bet its electronics will not be good enough to be a good plane, and the program for J-10C is not even costly.
> 
> People sometimes call J-10C a J-XX, J-12, or J-13. Its very secretive, but rumours are on their best, just like this T-50 fighter.
> 
> I knew that this fighter was a rumour, but after looking at source i started believing it, could you give me a source that says its rumour? Because the site looks too good to act like a propaganda site.
> [post=5794]Quoted post[/post]​*



China is the only country in the world after the U.S that is currently developing a Fifth generation fighter. China is still in its early stages of development and is seeking alot of Russian help on the plasma stealth technology that the J-XX is suppose to use. Maybe we can fund and do research joinly with China in 2010 (After JF-17 is in good numbers) so we can be the first Export customer and learn alot of things.

The J-10C is more of a research plane and counter measure to the Rafale and Eurofighter (which will have little stealth when compared to F-22), J-10C is a J-10A with new engine, AESA radar, 2 Engines, Sleeker design, and advanced electronicss. J-XX is the fighter which is suppose to be countering the F-22.


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## Best of the Best

Those of you are taking this as a joke or even as a rumour are living in a fools paradise the news is from flight international not some bullshit site and no T-50 isnt pak-Fa if you look at it closely it looks like a cheap copy of F-22 i am not taking this news as a joke i am taking it damn seriously and they have quoted the Russian air force cheif not any bafoon or bozo and they said the 1st prototype is to fly by next year that means there is no less then 5 to 8 years development work will be done on it even still i take this as a threat not as a joke....


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## EagleEyes

Sam,

Thunder is correct, it is PAK-FA.



> *The Russian aircraft firm Sukhoi is seeking help from European companies, and governments, for developing its new fighter design. This aircraft, designated the T50 (also known as the PAK FA), is slated to be a new fifth-generation fighter Ã¢â¬â in the class of the F-22, Rafale, F-35, and Eurofighter. The T50/PAK FA is intended to be a long-range aircraft with stealth technology, short-takeoff-and-landing capability, and highly maneuverable. Russia is hoping to buy as many as 600 of this aircraft.
> 
> http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2005821232049.asp
> *



Also Kaiser your right too&#33;  

J-10C is a variant of J-10 with the things you have mentioned and it is also a little bit stealthy.


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## melb4aust

There&#39;s no need to be afraid of any thing. Such projects doesnt take just couple of years but minimum a decade to become operational. the biggest example is the F-22. Plus a lot of &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;. Forget India to fund russia or russia to work on it byitself. 

If stealth is only the question, then it can be solve by working on radar technology and such kind of stuff. But again it would be interesting how technology is gonna change to cope such things.

Lets just wait and see........................ 

If there is a desease there&#39;s always a cure for it as well.


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## Zeeshan S.

But for the disease to enjoy a time is also great for itself. Aids is here but there is no cure until yet, even with the billions of dollar spending.

Now replace disease with the word stealth.


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## Kaiser

Guys just think of this way. Here is what could happen if somehow Russia and India magicly make a fifth generation fighter (never will happen)

1) China can buy the technology (for the 5th generation fighter) and make the Tech better and at the end build its own fighter which after a while be bought by Pakistan.

2)China would probaly already have a better fifth generation fighter than the PAK-FA Which Pakistan WOULD by

3)The US would feel threatened thanxs to Pakistan being a Key allie on the War on Terror and a very strategic country thus having to sell pakistan the F-22


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## Dynasty

Stop dreaming.

China can buy the 5th generation fighter technology? No way dude, nobody is agreed to sell any technology even for a 4th generation fighter let alone 5th generation fighter.  



> *2)China would probaly already have a better fifth generation fighter than the PAK-FA Which Pakistan WOULD by
> *



China doesn&#39;t have a 5th generation fighter yet, to build up a fighter in class of F-22 Raptor is highly impossible, even with the stolen tools and designs you have&#33;

You know it&#33;



> *3)The US would feel threatened thanxs to Pakistan being a Key allie on the War on Terror and a very strategic country thus having to sell pakistan the F-22
> *



Smoking is not good. Why would U.S feel threatened? Why would it give Pakistan its latest technology that even itself haven&#39;t yet inducted. :idiot:


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## melb4aust

That was really funny  , Grow up man, its not that simple even to say such thing. Acquisation of F-16 is still questionable ur talking about F-22  .

Man I wish this could happen :army:


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## abhishek

:thumbsup: 
Keep up guys&#33; by reading lots of post Now I can say now that pakistan is too much dependent on China.and this position would become more horrible later in 2010 -12   
Hope one day would come when there would be a war and China just backoff&#33;&#33;&#33;....

Then what is next options for pakistan.I think every member in this forum knows that sooner or later it is going to happen .
:huh:


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## melb4aust

Yeah in your dreams u indians. 
Have a look inside urs, relying on russians all the time and talking about sino-pak relations. 

It is just the propaganda you guys are doing have a conflict among us and china.

PAK-CHINA relations are clean as mirror, its just indian and soviet relations that r on fire.

It&#39;s fact that u guys cant see Pakistan&#39;s good realtion with some 1 and cant stand pakistan&#39;s flourishment. 

And the question that remains about war with some 1 and backing off china u guys just wish&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

I mean no offence but its the answer of the words u just post above.


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## EagleEyes

Melb4aust,

No offence, but targetting the person individually or a group wont do anything, thats exactly called bashing. I know there are some pakistani forums who allow this "b.hindian" calling stuff, but please this is insulting and often cause flame wars and later trolling.

If you want to correct them, do it with facts and sources, that will make you look much smarter. 

Please avoid that in the future, i hope you understand.
Thanks.


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## Best of the Best

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Feb 3 2006, 06:55 PM
> *Melb4aust,
> 
> No offence, but targetting the person individually or a group wont do anything, thats exactly called bashing. I know there are some pakistani forums who allow this "b.hindian" calling stuff, but please this is insulting and often cause flame wars and later trolling.
> 
> If you want to correct them, do it with facts and sources, that will make you look much smarter.
> 
> Please avoid that in the future, i hope you understand.
> Thanks.
> [post=5889]Quoted post[/post]​*




Sorry Ahsan aka Webmaster i dont see anything wromg with Melb4aust&#39;s reply it was quite decent and up right the guy above stared the flame i read his post and i too could have bashed him but being a mod i didnt what goes around comes around our respected indain members should watch there mouths before babling..


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## Neo

Actually China is well in process of building a 5th generation stealth aircraft.
They might even get technical assistence from Russia or opt to pump money in the Pak-Fa project.

I found this article some time ago, open the link below for an artists impression of the stalth J-12...



> *J-12 ( F-12 / XXJ )
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The J-12 or the XXJ is China&#39;s fifth generation. The revealed design shows an aircraft with a stelthy appearence and the capabilities of a fifth generation fighter. The program is refered to as F-12 in China.
> 
> The office of the Naval Intelligence revealed the existance of this project. The ONI believes that the Chinese researchers have begun studies on the design concept. The studies are conducted by Chengdu aircraft manufacturing plant and they are considering a twin engine version for the aircraft and is believed to have a single and twing seat configuration.
> 
> The J-12 is expected to enter service in the year 2015. There may be a dalay in this expectation as the Chinese lack the capability to build some of the vital systems on the aircraft such as the Radar absorbant material and most important the engine which is believed to be a thrust vectoring engine. This means that the Chinese would have to purchase equipment from Russia. But the provision of such equipment by Russia is still a question as Russia denied the sale of engines for the Super-7 project because of pressure from one of Russia&#39;s allies. The Super-7 project is almost nearing a state in which it will be scrapped.
> 
> Another main problem with the Chinese is that they have no fourth generation fighters except for the Su-27s which are made in lisence production. This would mean a generation leap fo the Chinese. Though the J-12 belongs to the same generation to that of the F-22 and the MiG-MFI/LFI it would be far more inferior to those aircraft in many ways. *



http://www.totalairdominance.50megs.com/Fighters/J%2D12.htm


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## Neo

> _Originally posted by abhishek_@Feb 2 2006, 12:20 PM
> *:thumbsup:
> Keep up guys&#33;ÃÂ  by reading lots of post Now I can say now that pakistan is too much dependent on China.and this position would become more horrible later in 2010 -12ÃÂ ÃÂ  ÃÂ
> Hope one day would come when there would be a war and China just backoff&#33;&#33;&#33;....
> 
> Then what is next options for pakistan.I think every member in this forum knows that sooner or later it is going to happen .
> :huh:
> [post=5828]Quoted post[/post]​*


Abhishek,

We are as dependant on China as you were on the Sovjets back in the 80/90&#39;s and still your defence industry is based on cloned Russian technology, no offence btw coz you have come a long way.
So I&#39;m afraid I&#39;m failing to to understand your sarcasm as you&#39;ve been in the same position not too long ago  

Just tell me one thing; Where would India be today without Russian assistence? :?:


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## Neo

> _Originally posted by melb4aust_@Feb 2 2006, 08:00 AM
> *That was really funny  , Grow up man, its not that simple even to say such thing. Acquisation of F-16 is still questionable ur talking about F-22  .
> 
> Man I wish this could happen :army:
> [post=5825]Quoted post[/post]​*


There&#39;s nothing wrong being a patriot but indeed we should keep in touch with reality and the reality is that we&#39;ll never have access to sensitive technology from Uncle.
We better keep our eye on China and try to co-finance as many projects as we can afford.


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## Thunder

abhishek 


Pakistan is dependent on china but so is the chinese. If china backs off then they to will suffer. But long lives sino-pak friendship. 

Anywho getting back to the topic. It is said that ruissa 1st asked china to be the partner for PAK-FA. China refused and started to make it&#39;s own 5th gen fighter. It is belived that the chinese 5th gen fighter will be better then Eurofighter, and all the ruissians fighters including PAK-FA. But it won&#39;t be as good as the F/A-22.

So it will be better then all the fighters expect for F-22. But it&#39;ll be very close to the F-22


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## EagleEyes

> _Originally posted by Sam_@Feb 3 2006, 10:27 AM
> *Sorry Ahsan aka Webmaster i dont see anything wromg with Melb4aust&#39;s reply it was quite decent and up right the guy above stared the flame i read his post and i too could have bashed him but being a mod i didnt what goes around comes around our respected indain members should watch there mouths before babling..
> [post=5894]Quoted post[/post]​*



Sam,

There were some words like bihindians in his post.. I editted it and made it Indians.. Also put it as a bad word so it will replace it to Indians.

I agree that maybe you dont agree with abhishek&#39;s comments, but come on guys dont offend each other.

Thanks,
WebMaster


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## Zeeshan S.

Well i dont think its fake at all&#33; I am sure that India is financing this project in anyway, but i dont think it will be stealthy at all. If the project is suppose to be stealthy then it would take a lot of time to design and produce each aircraft. Structuring the aircraft that way is not a piece of cake&#33;


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## Sid

The pictures in the original link are just Raptors with Russian red stars on them. Nothing else. 

Yes, India and Russia are jointly working on a 5th generation fighter aircraft which is termed the PAK-FA. Haven&#39;t heard of this T-50 anywhere else up till now. May well be a hoax owing to some yellow journalism.


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## Bull

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Feb 1 2006, 04:26 AM
> *I understand that research and development for 5th generation fighter costs a lot of money, and as you pointed that even China doesn&#39;t have that much money so its very unrealistic that someone will be able to build up a 5th generation fighter with stealth. I am with you in this fact, but there are also some fighters out there which are kind of stealthy by low RCS, and their design avoid the radar signals some fighters absorb those signals some dodge it, and those who do neither become target to radars, thus the fighters.
> 
> China is building up J-10C people believe that it will be a stealthy aircraft, even though it will be stealthy but i bet its electronics will not be good enough to be a good plane, and the program for J-10C is not even costly.
> 
> People sometimes call J-10C a J-XX, J-12, or J-13. Its very secretive, but rumours are on their best, just like this T-50 fighter.
> 
> I knew that this fighter was a rumour, but after looking at source i started believing it, could you give me a source that says its rumour? Because the site looks too good to act like a propaganda site.
> [post=5794]Quoted post[/post]​*



A lot of the cost that US incurs can be reduced if the same research is done in any developing country like Russia,china india or pakistan.
So this 50Bn dollar can be reduced by 20 - 20 % and can be easily shared by 2or 3 countries.
Thats a possibilty.

Forget abt it flying next year,that might be in the dreams.

I think the only secret deal between india and russia now is with the ATV/nuclear sub.


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## Sid

Top secret military research is done in countries where this is least chance of leakage of tech information and source codes and the vulnerability to sensitive information is the least. Pakistan and India would probably figure at the bottom of such a list. There is no proper respect for Intellectual Property Rights in either of the two countries, forget about top secret military information.


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## Bull

> _Originally posted by myst_@Feb 22 2006, 08:49 AM
> *Top secret military research is done in countries where this is least chance of leakage of tech information and source codes and the vulnerability to sensitive information is the least. Pakistan and India would probably figure at the bottom of such a list. There is no proper respect for Intellectual Property Rights in either of the two countries, forget about top secret military information.
> [post=6019]Quoted post[/post]​*



the with whom will russia develop a fifth gen fighter,if it ever does??

Its a recently admitted fcat that russia was having a silent acccord with india with respect to the TAV or N sub of india.


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## master_fx

> _Originally posted by Best of the Best_@Jan 31 2006, 09:43 AM
> *Hey guys check this out T-50 russian 5th generation fighter jet i hve actually heard of it for the 1st time in my life it looks like a cheap copy of the F-22 and it is said that the prototype will fly next year hummmm for me this is new news do check it out the i am giving a link to you guys...
> Flight international
> [post=5769]Quoted post[/post]​*



great info.........


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## Bull

well there a lots of things discussed here, people say russia are not capable of developing a 5th gen plane and the same time says china will get russias help in this project.

Which itself is a contradiction, russia has got a matured avionics or aircraft mfring industry unlike china whose first plane is yet to fly.Russia has years of mfring and flying planes and china is juss a kid.

With money russia can definitly develop the fifth gen plane,now from where the money comes from i dont know,India..???China???.....could be??

The 50 bn &#036; that was required by US wont be required by the russsians/chineese /Indians to develop something similiar bcoz of the relative lower costs here.


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## Thunder

Russia already devloped 5th gen fighters, MFI, SU-37 etc. They just did&#39;nt had the money to mass produce it. Sure the avionces of these planes are not the best ones but you can never expect decent avionces from russia, only supermounverable fighters :cool2:


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## SyedK

Decent avionics belongs in the west to be produced, its simple because they have experience and are good with technology of it, not to mention the computer systems did invent there. However, China, Pakistan, and India are not doing bad in this field. They have difinately asked for help and i believe they have become very close to it.

By they way reffering China as a kid of aviation is definately not true, and its first plane to be fly soon is not true either. J-10s have been flying around and in the past it has created fighters like F-5s and others like JH-7s etc. Though i do get your point that China is still not experience enough like the Russians, but you must agree that they are catching up pretty fast and have produced much better avionics than the Russians so far.

This is probably because Russian aviation industry is not getting enough funds while in China the funds have been doubled and trippled.


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## master_fx

> _Originally posted by Neo_@Feb 3 2006, 05:17 PM
> *Actually China is well in process of building a 5th generation stealth aircraft.
> They might even get technical assistence from Russia or opt to pump money in the Pak-Fa project.
> 
> I found this article some time ago, open the link below for an artists impression of the stalth J-12...
> http://www.totalairdominance.50megs.com/Fighters/J%2D12.htm
> [post=5895]Quoted post[/post]​*




i have seen alot of chinese sources suggest tat j-xx will look some thing like this
http://www.hitechweb.szm.sk/fightersOF02.f...eseFighter1.jpg


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## Thunder

None really knows how the J-XX looks like. But since there were some pics of that plane being tested in a wind tunnel, we can assume that it does exist. And if it exists then the chinese gov is doing a great job keeping the progam classified


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## master_fx

> _Originally posted by Thunder_@Mar 17 2006, 03:41 PM
> *None really knows how the J-XX looks like. But since there were some pics of that plane being tested in a wind tunnel, we can assume that it does exist. And if it exists then the chinese gov is doing a great job keeping the progam classified
> [post=7200]Quoted post[/post]​*




lol..... china is modernizin and developin very rapidly...........
almost all the programs r runin now............... :thumbsup: 
nothin will left behind


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## godsavetheworld



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## godsavetheworld

The Russian corporation Fazotron-NIIR has concluded development of the newest "Zhuk-AEh" active phased array aircraft radar for MiG-35 fighters. According to the firm's general director, Vyacheslav Tishchenko, it is the first active phased array antenna assembled in Russia. Its appearance brings out fighter closer to the main competitor, the American F-35 fifth generation fighter. Now our MiG is able to compete with the F-35 not only in combat but also in the worldwide arms marketplace.

It is thought that Russia was lagging behind the United States in the area of the development of future new, fifth generation aviation complexes. The Americans already have the F-22 Raptor ((in English)) heavy fighter which has gone into series production. The F-35 is still at the testing stage. But it already is clear that it will be one of the most prospective combat aircraft of the world. The United States and its allies already have ordered more than 3,000 such fighters. We still have more to think about than to respond to the Americans. As the say at the Sukhoy design bureau, at the firm that won the state tender for the development of the future fighter, "everything is going according to plan." The already are assembling the first examples of the new aircraft at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur, and the future S-117 engine for it is being broken in on the newest Su-35.

*The appearance of the regenerated MiG is an event of the very same magnitude. The renovated electronic "stuffing" distinguishes it from the usual MiG-29. All airplane systems are controlled by on-board computers. Instead of analogue needled instruments there are liquid crystal panels. The newest Peterburg Klimov Design Bureau RD-33MK engines with fully rotating nozzles. In which connection, not only in "normal" flight regime, but also in afterburner. These properties radically distinguish the MiG-35 from the Su-30MKI itself or the American F-22 and F-35.*

However, in modern combat all this is not enough if the aircraft and the pilots are "blind." The "Zhuk-AEh" solves this very problem. Such radars were installed only on the most modern American fighters until its appearance, and Western Europe still is unable to create them. The installation of the complex will bring our MiG-35 fully up to the Western competitors, and at the same time will increase the chances for victory in the tender offered by India for the MMRCA program for the delivery to Delhi of 126 fighters. Let's try to analyze the details.

Parabolic or slot antennas were installed on our previous airplanes. They had one signal transmitter and receiver each. An active phased antenna array is built on the principle of a comb, which consists of 680 miniature receiving and transmitting systems. Such an antenna (again in contrast to the "predecessors") is monolithic, that is it does not turn from side to side in the search for targets. This economizes not only the systems' weight (it no longer needs electric motors), but also decreases the time for detection by the radar of targets by an order of magnitude, the scanning beam shifts from one antenna point to another in split seconds.

The new "Zhuk" has an angle of view of plus - minus 60 degrees. Viewing range is 140 kilometers. It can simultaneously track 30 and fire at 6 targets. Both in the air and on the ground. At the same time, the new antenna allows resolving a number of tasks. To transmit data about the tactical situation to other airplanes, perform electronic warfare and terrain mapping. Exactly the same as it is done on the American F-35.

According to the head of the Unified Aircraft Building Corporation, Aleksey Fedorov, all this allows talking about the MiG-35 as one of the most prospective Russian fighters which brings it close to the new generation of combat airplanes in its capabilities. In case of winning the tender, as Russian experts note, India will receive not only the fighter itself, but also the technology for producing the new radars with the active phased antenna array.


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## duhastmish

Great to see a dedicated thread to this beauty- This is a dream jump for indian air force.
We will just go ahead with a big leap which we might not deserve but will get it.
where did u get the pics from?

India will go for -t-50 - pak -fa first and then later we will go for FGFA. twin seater version.


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## white_pawn

*PAK-FA*

In early 2002 Sukhoi was chosen as prime contractor for the planned Russian fifth-generation fighter is called the PAK FA [ Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi - Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces]. This intermediate class twin-engined fighter will be larger than a MiG-29 and smaller than a Su-27. The new fighter is intended to be about the same size as the US F-35 JSF, with a primary air superiority mission and ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary missions. 

The aircraft will feature a long combat radius, supersonic cruise speed, low radar cross section, supermaneuverability, and the ability to make short takeoffs and landings. In accordance with the technical requirements, the PAK FA will have a normal takeoff weight of 20 tons, which is close to the average normal takeoff weight of the two American airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons). The new fighter (a medium version) will have a traditional wing form, though the experience gathered as a result of Berkut's test flights will be taken in consideration when designing the fighter. It is supposed that it will be created using the Stealth technology, and equipped with two AL-41F engines by the Saturn scientific and industrial enterprise, a radar system with an active phased array (to all appearances, it will be produced by the Fazatron-NIIR corporation), and high-precision weapons. 

The government commission decided on 26 April 2002 to choose the Sukhoi holding company as the head company to develop and produce the fighter of the fifth generation. The prototype of the PAK FA would take-off in 2006 and that in 2010 the aircraft would be ready for series production. The first deliveries, both for Russian armed forces and for export, would be possible in 2011-12. 

The new airplane is being proposed to be brought from the concept design to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. The Russian government has promised to allocate 1.5 billion dollars for the PAK FA through 2010. But the Russian Air Force is receiving less than 200 million dollars a year during this period, and will spend it primarily on other needs. 

The prices and sources of funding will determine the destiny of the whole program. To date officials agree that the program will cost $1.5 billion. However, $1.5 billion is the sum needed for creating a new generation of avionics for the fighter (considering the fact that pre-production models of the phased array have already been produced, and will soon be tested). And finally, designers will have to spend several hundred millions of dollars on creating a new airframe. 

The development of an engine for the fifth generation jet fighters involves two big companies, NPO Saturn (in consortium with UMPO) and FSUE Salyut, which are participating in this project and competing against each other to win the state-guaranteed order. The project is being implemented in two stages: firstly through upgrading the fourth-generation AL-31F engine and, secondly, the development of a basically new configuration of the fifth-generation engine. The consortium led by NPO Saturn was the winner of the first stage and their engine design will be installed on the first PAK FA engine prototypes. Their procurement has been scheduled for 2010. However, installation of the unit developed by Salyut on the modernised Su-27 jet fighter has already been carried out since December 2006. The financing for the first stage is considerably lower than the funds planned by the government to finance the second stage (according to unofficial information US$500m and US$23bn, respectively). Completion of the AL-41F engine (present readiness is 30 percent) will require, in the opinion of the boss of Rosaviakosmos, 600 - 800 million dollars. Saturn said that launching of production of the AL-41F engine would take $150 million. An improved version of the AL-31F will be used on the aircraft originally (though it is not clear how these heavy motors are reconciled with the concept of a 20-ton fighter). The upgrade of these engines will require expenditures of 1.2-1.5 billion dollars. 

State financing will cover not more than 20-22 percent of the cost of the development of the PAK FA. It will thus be necessary to draw extrabudgetary sources of funding, lending the development program a principle of openness for international cooperation. In the opinion of experts, export income, if it is taken from the plants, can provide not more than 1 billion dollars. It is maintained that the insufficient amounts can be received from foreign partners. 

The plane's development will be conducted with a view of achieving a reasonable compromise between its cost and combat efficiency, and take into account the market demand. exports sales of the new warplane must reach 500 to 600 fighters at a price of $35 to $40 million each to make production of the new aircraft profitable. 

According to some reports, India and Russia have agreed to jointly develop this fifth-generation fighter, under a scheduled with entery into service in 2009. This would be the first such joint development venture between the two countries. 

There is little chance that Russia will have fifth-generation pursuit planes of its own. Development and construction of a fifth-generation fighter would require about $20 billion dollars, and as of early 2004 it was unlikely that the government will appropriate financing of this scale. "The problem is that economic and military authorities in this country live in parallel spaces and have no common approach to problems," according to Deputy Director of the analytical department of the Political and Military Analysis Institute Alexander Khramchikhin. 

According to a report on 09 January 2008, the general director of the company "Sukhoi" Michael Pogosyan the tests are officially planned for 2009, and closer to 2015 its serial production must start. In general all goes according to the schedule, he said. "Now we are at the stage of constructing pre-production models of the plane. It is necessary go step by step through the stages which are directly linked to the preparation of the flight tests". 

On 03 April 2008 RIA Novosti reported that Russia planned to begin flight tests of the new fifth-generation fighter in 2009. "The development of a fifth-generation Advanced Tactical Frontline Fighter is being carried out under the Sukhoi PAK FA project," Russian industry and energy minister Viktor Khristenko said in a report posted on the ministry's website. "The flight tests of the aircraft are scheduled to begin in 2009," he said. The new fighter aircraft, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets, will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East. 

On 07 July 2008 Air Force commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said "We will begin test flights [of the new fighter] in 2009, and hope to receive the aircraft in 2013". 


*General characteristics*

Crew: 1 (pilot)/2(crew)for Indian variant
Length: 22.0 m (72 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Height: 6.05 m (19 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 78.8 m² (848 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,786 lb)
Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
Useful load: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,571 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Saturn-Lyulka AL-41F turbofan 
Dry thrust: 96.1 kN (9,800 kgf, 21,605 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (15,500 kgf, 34,172 lbf) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2+ at altitude
Cruise speed: 1,300 km/h (807.8 mph)
Ferry range: 4,000 to 5,500 km (2,485 to 3,418 mi)
Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,898 ft/min)
Wing loading: 470 kg/m² (96.3 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.84 (dry thrust)
Minimum thrust/weight: 
With afterburner: 1.19
Runway length requirement: 350 m (1,148 ft)
Endurance: 3.3 hrs (198 mins)
Armament


Guns: 2 × 30 mm internal cannon
Hardpoints: 8 total, 4 on each side of the aircraft.
Avionics


Radar: N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35 
Frequency: 3 Cm (0.118 in) (X-band)
Diameter: 0.7 m (2 ft 4 in)
Targets: 32 tracked, 8 engaged
Range: 400 km (248 mi) 
EPR: 3 m² (32.3 ft²) at 160 km (99.4 mi)
RCS: 0.01 m² at 90 km (55 mi)
Azimuth: +/-70°, +90/-50°
Power: 4,000 W
Weight: 65 to 80 kg (143 to 176 lb)

Above are specification may defer in actual output

*FGFA*

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to mediapersons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.

The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.

Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.


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## duhastmish

* 
Russia
Brazil could make Russian new-generation fighters under license*

12:33 | 07/ 04/ 2009

Print version

MOSCOW, April 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russia may allow Brazil to produce its fifth-generation fighters under a license in the future, a senior Russian government official said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

"We are discussing with the well-known Brazilian company Embraer the transfer of technology and the construction of facilities for the future licensed production of the aircraft, including the fifth-generation fighter," said Alexander Fomin, deputy director of the Federal Service on Military-Technical Cooperation.

Russia's advanced multirole fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi aircraft maker, part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

The first prototype is scheduled to make its maiden flight before the end of 2009.

Last November, Russia and Brazil signed a series of agreements on military technology cooperation which emphasize the protection of intellectual property rights and technology secrets.

The agreements will facilitate the transfer of technology and the licensed production of the Russian aircraft in Brazil if Moscow decides to sign a contract with the South American country.

Meanwhile, Russia's Su-35 jet fighter is participating in an ongoing tender for the delivery of over 100 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force.

"We are actively participating in the Brazilian tender, which has been reopened. It involves over 100 fighter planes. Russia has made a bid in the tender with its Su-35 multirole fighter. The tender has stiff requirements, involving not only the sale, but also the transfer of technology. It is a key condition of the deal and Russia is ready to satisfy it," Fomin said.

Brazil wants a multirole fighter to protect its national airspace as well as to keep track of smugglers in the Amazon basin and guard the country's offshore oil rigs. However, it also wants the multi-billion dollar contract to reenergize the domestic defense industry through home-grown production and as much technology transfer as can be afforded.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090407/120955182.html


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## duhastmish




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## godsavetheworld




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## godsavetheworld

*Here's what India has to say about it.*

*PAK-FA: The next Indo-Russian 5th Generation aircraft*

With the agreement by the Indian defense minister Ak Antony and Sergei Avinov, both countries have agreed upon an ambitious project to build a 5th generation combat aircraft. Once the project takes off it will be a 50-50 partnership effort by both countries, like the previous very successful Brahmos hypersonic cruise missile system.

Information on this jet is very vague and internet forums are filled with rumors about this new jet. PAK FA stands for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi - Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces. *Although there is no source that is reliable on the design and specifications of the aircraft the information basically sums up to by saying all the basics of a 5th generation aircraft; stealthy, ability to supercruise, armed with next generation air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-ship missiles and equipped with AESA radar. It is also rumored to be powered by a Saturn AL-41F engine. Some sources say that PAK FA was developed in response to the 5th generation American fighter JSF . Therefore we can infer that the capabilities of PAK FA might be similar to the JSF.*

*Analysts are predicting the maximum speed will be around Mach 2.1. The main component of a 5th generation aircraft is it&#8217;s stealth, but it is uncertain on how low the Radar Cross Section is because this is the first time Russia and India are making a complete stealth plane. They can use radar absorbent materials which lowers the RCS like they did for the Indian variant SU-30, SU-30MKI and they might as well use the plasma stealth like the Americans*


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## godsavetheworld

Any one who understands french can enjoy this informative article:


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## duhastmish

above pic is not - PAK-FA OR FGFA thats lmfs - an fifth gen ration interceptor under process from russia.


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## duhastmish




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## duhastmish




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## duhastmish

*AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF THE 5th GENERATION*



In accordance with the Government decision, NPO Saturn in cooperation with other companies of the industry is the developer and manufacturer of the 5th generation engine for the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA). 51_0_gen5_.jpg On 22 December 2006, the NPO Saturn Technical Council held the meeting of general designers and technical directors of organizations and companies &#8211; developers of the advanced engine, presided by NPO Saturn Technical Director-General Designer Mikhail Kuzmenko, D.Eng.Sc. Representatives of the RF Defense Ministry, Ministry of Power Engineering, Federal Industrial Agency, Sukhoi Design Bureau, as well as general directors of the branch institutes and companies were also present at the meeting. The participants of the meeting stressed that the Joint Aircraft Cooperation (JAC) was formed to unite the companies for the advanced engine development under the head of NPO Saturn. At the meeting, the Target Interdepartmental Draft Program concerning creation of the advanced aircraft engine for PAK FA and other documents to support the specified work were also considered. At present the participants of JAC are: NPO Saturn, OAO UMPO, FGUP NPP Motor, OAO Aviadvigatel, &#1054;&#1040;&#1054; V.Klimov Plant, FGUP Baranov CIAM, FGUP VIAM, OAO AMNTK Soyuz, OAO Star, OAO F.Korotkov NPO Temp, UNPO Molnia, and others. The JAC is open for cooperation with other aircraft engine-building companies that have not yet joined it at the first stage. The established Cooperation enables retention and development of the Russian engine-building potential, as well as consolidation of intellectual, financial, design and technological resources of the country. This structure, closed for foreign investors and partners, shall concentrate and realize all the latest developments for the Military Industrial Complex, which will later on be implemented in new OAK military engines. The other important socio-politic and economic objective of the Cooperation is concentration of all the state advanced engine finance sources within the framework of various federal target programs. The participants of the meeting unanimously acknowledged the leading role of NPO Saturn which possesses highly qualified engineering staff and powerful production facilities, and has successful experience in design of generation 4, 4+, 5 aircraft engines for military (AL-31F, AL-31FN, AL-31FP, 117&#1057; engine) and civil aviation (SaM146) of the country. A very complex task facing the header when solving problems of the participants work organization, financial provision and distribution in due time, coordination of design and engineering matters was emphasized. It is evident that further solving problems of the advanced engine-building creation requires maximum support from the Government and wide branch-wise cooperation. Thus, for the first time in the post-Soviet period goodwill is expressed to unite the largest aircraft engine-building centers of Russia for implementation of a specific break-through project of advanced engines development in the interests of the Military Industrial Complex. Advanced engine family development concept At NPO Saturn, the concept of the advanced common core generation 5 engine family creation has been developed. The created engines will determine the national gas-turbine engine-building potential for the nearest 25-30 years. Creation of the common core engine family enables lead-time and development cost reduction.[/IMG]


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## godsavetheworld

*Indo-Russian Pak-FA VS F-22/F-35*



The F-22 Raptor is the only US fighter design with the stealth, speed and agility to defeat the new Russian PAK-FA design. To be highly effective against the PAK-FA, it will need a range of upgrades, including a new technology infrared sensor. Depicted technicians at the USAF AEDC performing low observables testing on an electro-optical sensor fairing, developed for the AIRST sensor. The AIRST was deleted from the F-22 avionic suite during development as a cost saving measure (US Air Force image).


*Imagine an apocryphal story of three fighter pilots meeting in the bar at an air combat conference in Stockholm, in the year 2015. Chuck is a NATO F-22A Raptor pilot based in Germany, Boris an Su-35-1 Flanker E Plus pilot flying from one of the bases protecting Moscow, and Johan, a F-35A Lightning II pilot from the Netherlands. All are masters of their craft and after drinks, merely to lubricate the vocal chords, they do what fighter pilots all over the world do  swap stories and make claims about their beloved aircraft*.

Chuck starts. Im king of the skies, he claims. I supercruise at 52,000 feet and Mach 1.7. Boris, I can see you from ~100 nm, and my AIM-120D launch range at this Mach is 70 nm. You are one dead Flanker. Boris acknowledges the performance of the APG-77 and the Raptor, but replies, Your missiles are easy to avoid. When you fire, my OLS-35 will see the flare, and I will turn away to out-run the missile. 

You need to fire closer than 50 nm  even then at 50,000 feet and Mach 1.2, my Flanker can out-turn your missile. If you are side or rear on I can get a lock-on at ~40 nm and I have a choice of seeker heads, so you might wear an R-77M in the backside. No way Boris, Chuck replies, I know that game. Im head on and you cant see me until about ~15 nm. If I have not killed you at 50 nautical, Im outa there at the speed of heat. Boris and Chuck concede that there might be a nil-all draw, with Chuck being untouchable because of the Raptors stealth, altitude and speed and the well defended Su-35-1 defeating the Raptors missiles [1].

Now Boris makes his point. Comrade Johan, I have something special for you. My IRBIS-E will see you head-on at ~25nm, but I fly my boys very wide and share the paints on our digital network. At side and rear looks, I see you at ~45 nm and my ramjet RVV-AE-PDs can get you at that range. No way, Johan responds, my APG-81 radar will see you at ~75 nm and I can launch at 50 nm. If you fire, my DAS will see the missile at launch, so Ill turn away to break lock. And my wingman will see you in the turn, computer network will still know where you are, and we will skewer you in the cross-fire is Boriss riposte, and you will run out of missiles before I do, If I duck your AIM-120D shots, I will win easily. They bicker about the strengths of their own aircraft and weaknesses of the others and Johan grudgingly agrees the Flanker might be the winner. 

Chuck and Johan stay in the bar after Boris is unexpectedly called away by men in dark coats, and agree that work needs to be done on improving the AIM-120Ds terminal lethality. 

Essentially, this is a deadly play between stealth, agility, sensors and missiles. From the front quarter the Raptors 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning IIs 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets. The Flanker-E Plus, while having a reduced radar signature, still has a residual RCS of about 2 square metres, such that the F-22A and the F-35 will see the Su-35-1 way beyond their missile launch range. The Su-35-1 struggles to see the F-22A on radar, but can find the F-35s 0.01 square metre lower side and rear RCS. The AIM-120D is a fine missile, but the Su-35-1 has finer defences, so the missile kill probabilities are likely to be low. When out of missiles, the F-22 Raptor can escape. The F-35 Lightning II cannot.

A more likely future scenario is that Boris will be banned from subsequent air combat conferences, so we must rely on more conventional air combat operations analyses. If we move forward just a couple of years, say to the year 2017, and the PAK-FA is operational, there is a profound change in air combat engagements. 

Suppose the Russians dont quite master stealth to the degree of the F-22A, but manage a RCS of 0.01 square metres from all aspects. The F-22As APG-77 will detect the PAK-FA at ~40 nm and the F-35s APG-81 at ~30 nm. Passive electronic surveillance might increase detection ranges, but this still makes long-range missile shots problematic, as tracking depends upon the opponent emitting, which smart opponents will try not to do.
The PAK-FAs radar can be expected to be an improvement on the IRBIS-E so at front-on aspects might detect the F-22A at ~15 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~28 nautical miles; and from side and rear aspects, the F-22A at ~43 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~51 nautical miles. 

Infrared sensors are the next growth area in air combat. Every air combat jet has unavoidable infrared signatures  converting kerosene into thrust at prodigious rates does that. The existing OLS-35, developed for the Su-35BM, is credited with the ability to detect a fighter type target head on from 27 nautical miles, and from behind at around 50 nautical miles, through a 90° sector. It uses conventional detector technology, and provides similar performance to the Eurofighter Typhoon PIRATE infrared sensor. It is likely the PAK-FA will have infrared signature management as is found on the designs of the YF-23A, B-2A and the F-22A, but not on the F-35 [2].
The emerging technology of Quantum Well Imaging Photodetectors (QWIP) is set to cause an upset in this market sector. 

*Quantum Imaging Photo detectors.*




QWIP based imaging Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) detectors can be tuned by design for sensitivity in a particular infrared band, using a fundamentally different detection technique to conventional band gap detectors where the material determines the colour sensitivity of the detector. First commercialized by Germanys AIM/Diehl-BGT, QWIPs have since been adapted for ballistic missile defence applications. QWIPs have also been built to operate not only in the conventional midwave and longwave infrared bands, but also in the very longwave 15 micron band to detect very cool targets. QWIPs capable of simultaneously imaging in two, three or four infrared bands have also been manufactured and marketed. QWIP technology, therefore, opens up the potential for even greater detection ranges against targets cooler than what current production infrared sensors can track, and provide for much better infrared background rejection.
Consider a QWIP technology OLS-50M installed in the PAK-FA. Such a device could be design-optimised for simultaneous detection and tracking of aircraft exhausts, jet-plumes and missile flares to ranges of 70 nm and beyond  the limiting factors are the size of the optics, cooling system and detector area. *Russia has decades of experience in the integration of infrared sensors into its weapons systems, and QWIPs could well become the primary sensor and radar the secondary. This means that the F-22A AN/ALR-94 will be denied signals to detect and track the PAK-FA.* 

*The shooting match shifts from radar-centric to infrared centric. The problem here is that the PAK-FA will have it, the F-22A does not, and the ability of the F-35 EOTS and DAS to make long range aircraft detections and guide weapons is at best unproven. * The F-35 systems have not been designed to be highly sensitive at the task of searching and tracking distant aircraft at those infrared colours where aircraft and their jet engines emit most of their infrared energy. An understanding of the physics, or for the ever-hopeful, a simple Developmental Test and Evaluation exercise will demonstrate this.

*With the Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) radar detections being reduced to distances below 60 nautical miles and infrared sensor detection ranges growing beyond 50 nautical miles, a new generation of missiles will be required to dominate the battlespace*. 

Russian missile companies have shown much more flexibility and adaptability in the design of missiles, so the PAK-FA could have a new-generation of shorter range, but higher agility missiles  a fusion of the ideas in the R-74 and R-77M, with a diverse mix of seeker heads. These missiles will likely be cued by the IRST sensor, be equipped with inertial midcourse guidance and, probably, mid-course guidance update capability transmitted either by radio, or possibly infra-red laser or millimetric wave links. 

*Expect the PAK-FA to have vectored thrust and high levels of agility like the Flankers it is to either replace or complement. Long missile range requires large rocket or ram-jet motors and these heavy weapons lack the agility to pull high terminal G, and may be ducked by the PAK-FA as easily as by the Su-35-1.* 

The PAK-FA will use a new super-cruising engine, based on technology from the Al-41F series, so its tactic might be to maintain combat speeds of about Mach 1.5 and use a more compact version of the ramjet RVV-AE-PD. A supersonic launch enables a ramjet to light without a powerful booster  thereby denying an opponent the detection of the usual missile launch flare. 

Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal. The F-22A may get first look with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get first look using its advanced infrared sensor. Then, the engagement becomes a supersonic equivalent of the Battle of Britain or air combat over North Korea. The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. However there is a guarantee that the PAK-FA will prevail most of the time.

The fate of the F-35 Lightning II would be far worse in an air combat environment challenged by the PAK-FA. If the Mach 1.5 PAK-FA is using its infrared sensor as the primary sensor and observes radio frequency emission control (EMCON), then the first detection by the F-35s APG-81 radar could be at ~20 nautical miles or less with a missile launched by the PAK-FAs infrared sensors already inbound from 60 to 70 nautical miles away. The PAK-FA could easily break to a direction outside the F-35s AIM-120 engagement zone. 

The sustained turning performance of the F-35A Lightning II was recently disclosed as 4.95 G at Mach 0.8 and 15,000 ft. A 1969 F-4E Phantom II could sustain 5.5 Gs at 0.8 Mach with 40 percent internal fuel at 20,000 feet. The F-35 is also much slower than the 1960s F-4E or F-105D. So the F-35As aerodynamic performance is retrograde when compared with 1960s legacy fighters. The consequence of such inferior JSF performance is that its DAS might detect an incoming missile, but the aircraft lacks the turn-rate to out-fly it. As the F-35 also lacks the performance to engage or escape, repeated freebie shots from the PAK-FA could inflict high losses. Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher[3].

Russian aerospace companies have demonstrated an ability to outpace US aerospace manufacturers in terms of delivery of an operational capability and also the diversity of the capabilities of their weapons systems. The cumbersome US acquisition system, and marketing rather than technology driven aerospace industry, put the US at a distinct competitive disadvantage in rapidly adapting to an evolving threat environment.

The most dangerous situation the US could face, is where the high and upwardly spiralling development and production costs of the JSF cuckoo the available resources, which are needed to develop the advanced capabilities necessary to counter the new Russian PAK-FA, and the generation of new weapons which the PAK-FA will inevitably be armed with.

*Complacency is not an option. Having ruled the roost for the decade out to 2015, the F-22A may be knocked off its perch by a newcomer, unless the US invests in new sensors, especially, and advanced technology Infra-Red Search and Track, stealth improvements and a new generation of missiles for the F-22  assuming it even builds more than the token number of F-22s currently planned. The F-35 has already been neutralised and negated by the Su-35-1/35BM and will be substantively overmatched by the PAK-FA. The West needs to think long, hard and fast about the PAK-FA, as the current and retrograde F-35 centric future fighter fleet model guarantees certain defeat in future combat*


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## duhastmish




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## duhastmish

I think this is lookign very much similer to vendetta - from cal poly - design. 
if got a lil time read this. 
http://aerosim.calpoly.edu/files/Vendetta/Vendetta%20-%20Final%20SAWE%20Paper.pdf


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## duhastmish

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## duhastmish




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## godsavetheworld




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## Screaming Skull

*Nothing new but a recent article nevertheless.....* 




*Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project​*
21/ 04/ 2009

MOSCOW. (Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator) - The development of the fifth-generation jet fighter is one of the most widely discussed issues in Russia's military.

What's more, with its potential involvement in developing the jet fighter, India, one of Russia's long-standing partners in military technical cooperation, confirms its interest in Russia's future project.

The new jet fighter is being developed under the PAK FA (Prospective (promising) Aircraft System of the Frontline Aviation) program to replace fourth-generation models now in service in Russian and Indian air forces.

The Soviet Union launched fifth-generation fighter programs in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, the Mikoyan Design Bureau developed the Project 1.44 warplane, also known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG MFI. The Sukhoi Design Bureau came up with the S-37 Berkut experimental supersonic forward swept-wing jet fighter. The S-37 aircraft was an advanced technology demonstration prototype not intended to be mass-produced as a fighter. However, due to the lack of funding, the Project 1.44 aircraft was not streamlined and never entered production either.

By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late. (U.S. secret weapon: F-22-A Raptor in action. RIA Novosti video)

As a result, in the early 2000s, the Russian Government made decision to develop an entirely new fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev Design Bureaus, all renowned for their fighters, offered several warplane versions.

The project was eventually entrusted to Sukhoi, which refers to it internally as the T-50.

Various maiden flight and supply deadlines were discussed from the very beginning. The T-50 was eventually scheduled to perform its first flight somewhere between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, the commander of the Russian air force announced that the plane would first take off in August 2009.

*Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, confirmed the information. "The progress that has been made by now suggests that we can begin the flight tests within one year," Mr Pogosyan said. Several versions of the aircraft are being discussed, including a two-seater model, and a carrier-based aircraft.*

In the summer of 2008, officials said the T-50 design had been approved and prototype aircraft blueprints sent to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russia's Far East, where jet fighters will be produced. The plant is currently building three prototype T-50 fighters for future tests, due to last five to six years, while mass production will not get underway before 2015.

Although T-50 specifications have not been disclosed, it is known that prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn. As a result, the T-50 will be a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which had developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, is now working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designs on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

*India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter. There is a possibility that the Indian version of the Russian fighter will be lighter and smaller, and thus cheaper.*

There have been reports in the past few months about the new fighter's exterior design. Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

As of now, one can only make general conclusions on what kind of a machine it will be, based on the known parameters of their technical specifications. The new fighter should be:

- multifunctional - capable of successfully hitting air, ground and water targets alike, including small and moving ones, in any weather or time of the day, against an enemy equipped with high-precision weapons;

- super-maneuverable - capable of performing controlled flight at low velocity and large angle of attack;

- largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

- capable of taking off and landing on short runways.

However, the term "fifth-generation" covers more than just the fighters. It also embodies a whole range of equipment to ensure advanced combat capabilities, including weapons, radio-electronic equipment, ground- and air-based supply and control systems.

These elements are also under development, although not all projects are proceeding with equal speed and success. Nevertheless, they are all crucial to the program as a whole. Without them, the new fighter will remain a very expensive toy incapable of boosting the combat capabilities of the air force. 

RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project


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## LCA

Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009 | Reuters

Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009
Mon May 11, 2009 2:27pm BST

By Oleg Shchedrov

KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, Russia (Reuters) - Russia's first all-new warplane since the fall of the Soviet Union will make its maiden flight before the end of the year, a senior official said on Monday.

*"The prime minister (Vladimir Putin) visited today a section of the aircraft factory where he saw fifth-generation warplanes at the final stage of assembly,"* Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in Komsomolsk in Russia's Far East, where the Sukhoi military and civilian aircraft maker is based.
*
"Before the end of the year, this plane will take to the sky."*

He gave no further details, and *journalists were not admitted to the top-secret part of the factory assembling the jet as Putin visited it.*

Russia's military program are notorious for delays but if the new Sukhoi warplane does fly this year, it will be the first foreign aircraft to challenge the much-publicized U.S. fifth-generation F-22 "Raptor" jet fighter.

A military commentator for Russia's RIA state news agency said last month that both India and Brazil could be closely involved in Russia's plans to build a fifth-generation jet that would be multi-functional, all-weather and day-and-night.

Other features of the fifth-generation jet, which the Soviet Union first conceived in the 1980s but was developed from scratch in the early years of this century, are *its increased maneuverability, its invisibility to all kinds of radar, and its ability to take off and land on short runways.*

Russia, engaged in a major reform of its armed forces, badly needs to update its weaponry to fight modern, hi-tech wars.

As well as the all-new jet, Ivanov promised that production of existing Soviet-designed fighters would be stepped up.

"It was agreed that the Defense Ministry would increase its orders for Su-27s and Su-30s by several dozens (of units) in three years," Ivanov told journalists.

In the 1980s, the introduction of the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, codenamed "Flanker-B" by NATO, put the Soviet Union and its communist allies at the level of the U.S. F-15 and F-16 jets.

The Su-30, known as "Flanker-C" to NATO, is a more formidable version of the Su-27. It made its first flight in the days of the Soviet Union but was introduced to service in post-communist Russia in 1996.

(Writing by Dmitry Solovyov; Editing by Michael Stott and Kevin Liffey)


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## godsavetheworld

*Russian 5th-gen fighter to commence test flights by year-end: Russian Deputy PM  *

12 May 2009 



Komsomolsk-on-Amur: *Russian deputy prime minister, Sergei Ivanov, has confirmed that flight tests of a fifth-generation fighter will commence by the end of 2009.* 

"By the end of this year, the plane will rise into the air and flight tests will begin," Ivanov told journalists in the Russian Far East, adding that serial production will start in 2010. 

Russia's advanced multirole fighter, dubbed the PAK-FA, is being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau, part of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), in collaboration with Indian defence and aerospace establishment, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). 

The collaboration has been made possible through a preliminary inter-governmental agreement signed in October 2007. 

The first prototype is expected to make its maiden flight before the end of 2009. 

*PAK-FA*

On 28 February 2009 Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan announced that the first prototype of the PAK-FA should be ready by August 2009. *The programme is intended to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft that will match capabilities similar to that of Lockheed Martin's F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II, which are the world's first fifth-generation fighter jets.*

It has also been dubbed as the ''Raptorski''.






*The aircraft will feature a long combat radius, especially in its Indian twin-seat version, supersonic cruise speed, low radar cross section, super-manoeuvrability, and the ability to make short takeoffs and landings. *The PAK-FA or the T-50 (Sukhoi designation) will have a normal take-off weight of 20 tons, which is in between to the average normal takeoff weight of the two American fighters - the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons). 

The new fighter is expected to have a traditional wing form, but will incorporate experiences gathered as a result of the Berkut programme. *It will incorporate stealth technology and will be equipped with two AL-41F engines. The radar will be an active phased array system and the aircraft will deploy high-precision weapons. *

*Indian FGFA*

The Indian version has been designated the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and will be a derivative of the PAK FA. 

*"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," according to Ashok Baweja, erstwhile chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).*

After the meeting of the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja had said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. 

According to him,* India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.*



Listing the capabilities of the aircraft design, *Baweja said that it would have stealth features which allow a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise.' This facility allows engines to fly at supersonic speeds without engaging afterburners, which results in substantial savings in fuel consumption. *

*The aircraft's embedded weapons will have the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets. The design will also allow seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations. *






Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA would fly with the AL-37FU engine, but eventually will be powered by an engine with at least 15 to 20 per cent more power. 

*The FGFA is expected to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.*

According to Baweja, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. The software will also be different.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20090512_commence_test_flights.html


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## MARCOS

Absolutely Fantastic News. We can do with the additional technologically advanced firepower in the skies. Keep up the good work India.


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## zombie:-)

/\/\/\ guys good news indeed but let me warn you none of the designs available on the net depict the pak-fa ....it might look completely different when the first pics come out ...even resemble the f-22


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## Neo

*Russia: 5th-gen fighters to fly by 2010​* 11 May, 2009


​
Russia says it will begin testing the long-anticipated fifth-generation fighter plane it has co-produced with India by the end of the year. By the end of this year, the plane will rise into the air and flight tests will begin, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told RIA Novosti on Monday.

The aircraft is expected to supplant the fourth-generation of the Russian-Indian fighters, and is referred to as T-50 by Russias Sukhoi defense producer which is currently working on the plane.

Russian defense authorities, who were alarmed by US plans to develop successors to its fourth-generation fighter jets, came up with the idea of the aircraft in the early 1980s.

Moscow quickened work on the T-50 in 2005 when the F-22 Raptor officially joined the US air fleet.

The T-50 is expected to closely imitate the F-22 in being multifunctional, super-maneuverable and having the ability to evade optical, infrared or radio radars.

T-50 is also capable of performing controlled flights at low velocity and a large angle of attack, the Russian agency had earlier reported.

Three prototypes of the plane are being produced in the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russias Far East.

While the prototypes are expected to undergo five to six years of test flights before the aircraft hits the assembly line in 2015, Ivanov said mass production would start in 2010.

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## duhastmish

* "Heat exchanger" equip the new fighters with air-conditioning


JSC "Production and Design Association" heat exchanger "will supply air-conditioning systems for serial production of new Russian fighter T-50 - PAKFA (forward-looking set of front-line aviation aircraft, developed by JSC" Company "Sukhoi" to replace the MiG-29 and Su-27). This is stated in official documents of the company. T-50 is completed with 41 of them re-established, and 11 th serial products "heat exchanger".PAKFA First flight is planned for the summer of 2009, the start of series production of new fighter jets scheduled for 2010, with anticipated construction of 430 machines for domestic and foreign customers. In addition to fighter T-50 "heat exchanger" will also recruit a Russian air-conditioning systems, highly maneuverable multi-purpose all-weather fighter generation "4 + Su-35 (Su-27M, serial code of the T-10M, Flanker-E on the classification of NATO). As part of the serial production of Su-35 Nizhny Novgorod plant will supply 35 and the newly developed 16 series products. Su-35 will be ready for serial production in the 2010-2011 biennium. Assumed the construction of nearly 300 aircraft for domestic and foreign markets.Net profit of "heat exchanger" in the first quarter of 2009 - 33.99 million rubles. (12,8&#37; growth compared to the same period in 2008), sales -305.91 million rubles. (down 7%).

source:????????.Ru ??????? ? ??????
date:15.05.2009*


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## duhastmish

In Russia, a pilot's helmet fifth-generation aircraft


The protective helmet of the pilot's aircraft a fifth-generation specialists scientific-production enterprise "The Star", said director and chief designer of the company Sergey Pozdnyakov.

"At this time, the company began production of a pilot batch of helmets. We expect the fall to begin the test to complete them next year" - said the agency interlocutor.

According to him, the new helmet will be easier for existing ones. It will be equipped with a targeting system and a number of other innovations. The inner shell of the helmet to be customized for a specific form of the head pilot.

Based on a helmet the pilot is planned to develop broneshlem and a helmet for pilots of helicopters, he added Pozdniakov.

Source: newspaper &#171;Hooter&#187;,????????.Ru ??????? ? ??????
Published: 07.05.2009, 10:23


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## gubbi

I found these set of new pics for PAKFA on militaryphotos.net, posted by a forumer named Xav.

They are, in all probability ps'ed pics/concepts, but by far the best I have seen! Enjoy









Comments...


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## Rajkumar

gubbi said:


> I found these set of new pics for PAKFA on militaryphotos.net, posted by a forumer named Xav.
> 
> They are, in all probability ps'ed pics/concepts, but by far the best I have seen! Enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comments...



this looks coolmax


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## gubbi

Apparently, reports say that the PAKFA/FGFA would incorporate technologies/concepts from both the Su-47 Berkut and the MiG-1.44 tech demonstrators.

Most of the fanboy designs and snippets of information indicate that it will have a lifting body kind of fuselage, TVC, canard foreplanes, internal weapons bay and stealth characteristic features. Given the propensity of Russian scientists to come up with unconventional designs (starting from the world's first full production swept wing design the Mig-15, Mig-29, the cobra shaped Su-30, Su-47 to the Ka-52's distinctive co-axial rotor designed attack helo) I wouldnt be surprised if the PAKFA/FGFA resembles the above pics.

I would be drooling if PAKFA has forward swept wing design. Agreed that the wing design has its inherent flaws at supersonic speeds, that can be countered by using advanced composites, which both India and Russia have no shortage of brainpower and technology thereof!

Another point to note is that while the Russian PAKFA would be a single seater with fly-by-wire tech, Indian FGFA would be a dual/tandem seater version with - note this - fly-by-light technology. The Indian scientists insisted on this particular technology to be incorporated into the design.

And yes, it can hover while supercrusing! 

ps: will post sources if I can find them again.


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## digitaltiger

Nice pictures,, hope to see this jet in Air soon


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## duhastmish

http://www.paralay.com/stat/Bulat_12.pdf


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## gubbi

duhastmish said:


> http://www.paralay.com/stat/Bulat_12.pdf



Is that really the PAK-FA under the tarps? Really? The nose section looks very much like the Su-34/F-22 combined, but the tails tell a different story. 
Cant say much about the wings structure, but personally I would be disappointed if the bird didnt have forward swept wings. Its about time for some drastic changes in the airframe structures, like they did away with 2-3 wings of biplanes/triplanes, planform wings etc for supersonic planes.
Anyway I just cant wait to see the Pak-fa fly!


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## duhastmish

yes they claim that its - pak-fa under there.
its bound to be a cross between su-47 and f-22. But its kind of all on papers. 


i agree there gubbi- i cant wait to see this bird. its not far from now to - send a shiver down the spine of Indian opposition - with birdie's flight.


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## Cockpuncher

why do we have this speculation? isnt PAKFA pics there in the first page of the thread?


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## duhastmish

nah cockmuncher - those are just photoshop images and the one i posted are wind tunnel modal. 

till now pak-fa is kept secret and we have no proof of its final airframe shape.


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## Cockpuncher

one thing is clear - no forward swept wings


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## gubbi

duhastmish said:


> yes they claim that its - pak-fa under there.
> its bound to be a cross between su-47 and f-22. But its kind of all on papers.
> 
> 
> i agree there gubbi- i cant wait to see this bird. its not far from now to - send a shiver down the spine of Indian opposition - with birdie's flight.



Duhastmish, I just read somewhere that it is NOT the PAKFA.
(link). 
(link) 
The author just speculates on the probable shape of this birdie in the article along with aeronautical mambo-jumbo about 5th gen fighters. So we will have to wait till they show us the plane 
Btw, people also say that the ruskies aren't going to tease us and let us speculate about the probale shape of the plane, they will show it when time comes!
So its still out in the wide open. Maybe, just maybe PAKFA will have forward swept wings  So hold it cockpuncher, we dont know yet.
Btw, I also read that this particular author is going to reveal the picture of the real PAKFA in his next article on paralay.com! But I am gonna take it with a grain of salt, till I actually see it.

some more ps'ed designs of PAKFA to drool over, till we see the actual design


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## duhastmish

lol very nice pics gubbi but check this out-  if we get forward swept wing it will be amazing.


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## wtf

duhastmish said:


> lol very nice pics gubbi but check this out-  if we get forward swept wing it will be amazing.



Do you know who made this pic ? I am just wondering about the location of air intake nozzle. Since the aircraft has a swept forward wing, the best place to locate the inlet would be right under the wing (the wings divert airflow towards the aircraft). 

Unless there are problems with vortices, I can't think of a reason why the air intake would be ahead of the wing root (as in the picture). It is a pretty long aircraft - I don't think the turbine-exhaust length is the reason the air intake got moved forwards.


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## duhastmish

wtf said:


> Do you know who made this pic ? I am just wondering about the location of air intake nozzle. Since the aircraft has a swept forward wing, the best place to locate the inlet would be right under the wing (the wings divert airflow towards the aircraft).
> 
> Unless there are problems with vortices, I can't think of a reason why the air intake would be ahead of the wing root (as in the picture). It is a pretty long aircraft - I don't think the turbine-exhaust length is the reason the air intake got moved forwards.



i think its a fan boy image done on photoshop.
--------------------------------
here comes a fresh news .................

*Putin "saved" yet another plant: the creators of secret Russian fighter promised not to dismiss*

At KnAAPO where secrecy created a Russian fifth generation fighter PAK FA, began reducing the workforce. Already released 80 people, it is possible that further optimization of the number - previously referred to the reduction of more than a thousand people.However, the negative glow of the factory management and workers able to pay visit to KnAAPO Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. The factory told about the agreement between Putin and the head of AKH "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyanom, however, the document still has not been seen.In these circumstances, continuing the creation of a super secret PAK-FA, the first flight by the Prime Ivanov promises already this year.

The "Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production merge them. Gagarin (KnAAPO included in AKH" Dry "), the reduction started on 3 June, laid off about 80 people - told the factory trade union representative Paul Arslanova.But according to him, formally, by the time some people went to the factory yourself: "Knowing that the reductions can not be avoided, some employees chose to do so in advance by writing a statement on the resignations." In this promise, that skilled workers, including those who collect PAK FA, reduction did not affect - mostly retirees KnAAPO fired.Would have dismissed, is not yet known.

However, at the plant believe that large-scale reductions KnAAPO rescued May visit Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who showed the most secret development of Russia in recent years - the fifth generation multipurpose fighter PAK FA - to create it in the shops KnAAPO. It can be assumed that seen but not yet the finished product impressed the Premier, and he promised the company new orders.

"After the visit of Vladimir Putin, we were told that he and Mikhail Pogosyan (Chapter aviaholdinga" Dry ", approx.) signed some agreement guaranteeing boot KnAAPO new products. However, this document has still not been seen. But there is a shift to increased rates tariff level, for which we fought all the time. Zavodskaya administration has decided to meet the team and from September will be made to recalculate it, "- said Paul Arslanov.

But as the case with construction of the PAC FA - are still unknown. At KnAAPO flatly refused to discuss this topic - it had a subscription to withhold information containing state secrets. As the correspondent of "New Region" secret PAK FA is indeed strictly protected - for several years in the media do not trickled no one photo of this development, and its layout has never publicly demonstrated. Now the special variety of countries and simple avialyubiteli burned with curiosity, and the last cheat the interpretation of the look of the car. Judging by the majority of images, almost all artists compare with the Russian aircraft F-22 Raptor - features "American" guessed almost all the outline.

Meanwhile, based on statements by government officials who promise to fly PAK FA in 2009, it can be assumed that the center's secret airplane is almost ready. This gives hope that the statement by Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov term sailplane PAK FA will be able to really try. However, whether there are working engines and avionics - the big question. At the same time aware that the draft budget-2009 funding for the development of the PAC FA were going to cut to 938.1 million rubles.


Source: Information Agency «New Region»
Published: 05.06.2009, 17:09


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## King Julien

duhastmish said:


> nah cockmuncher - those are just photoshop images and the one i posted are wind tunnel modal.
> 
> till now pak-fa is kept secret and we have no proof of its final airframe shape.



no photoshop, no wind tunnel model.....
the images you guys are posting are made using autodesk 3ds max and autodesk maya.....
the images presented on first page are made in 3ds max and rendered using v-ray engine..... 
the image with the cloth, is made in maya using n-cloth..... 
i hope that helps.... 
regards

Reactions: Like Like:
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## xebex

gubbi said:


> I found these set of new pics for PAKFA on militaryphotos.net, posted by a forumer named Xav.
> 
> They are, in all probability ps'ed pics/concepts, but by far the best I have seen! Enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comments...



Sweet Mother Of Lord.


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## duhastmish

I think that sukhoi is pushing so hard for a 1st flight in 2009 is because 2009 happens to be the 60th year of the SDB.
hopefully Sukhoi might fly the PAK-FA on - around a date representing a milestone for SUKHOI - As a morale booster for the company. ????


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## le_souriceau

By the way, the russian abbreviation PAK FA mean something like "Advanced Tactical Aviation Aircraft Complex", or more precisely "Perspective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation" (&#1088;&#1091;&#1089;. &#1055;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089; &#1092;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080. But there is problem in 100&#37; correct translation, because some specifics of russian military-technical language.

AND as bonus : )

Im translated for you russian video from post #19. Here english text (its about engine - not plane).

(TV dictor)
- Our correspondent was able to visit the first tests of unique fifth generation engine . There is full-scale works on Russia's largest warfactory "Salut".

(Correspondent)
- Slight hissing, clicking, and a cluster with titanium plates, jet engine moves to the left. Another click - right, and then to the bottom and on a circle. Movement is managed by the computer. He also controls such simple, just at first view, turning mechanism. To make it work on real engines, nearly 10 years all the major aviation companies hard worked worldwide.

This is a test room. It is tightly closed. Next to him will be using cameras and computers. The air flow rate in the chamber - 120-150 kilometers per hour.

Run. Power grows. Thrust 3 tons, 5, 10.5. Now the most difficult. Reactive jet starts go to side. The temperature at the outlet of above 1000 degrees. The throw to the right, mimicking the sharp anti-missile maneuver of aircraft in combat. Now to left. Leaf yields of nozzle pressure, but the computer finds the correct balance.

(One of constructors)
- The fifth-generation engine must have a high performance, but it should be simple, cheap and interchangeable with regard to existing aircraft for modernization. This is how we make it.

(Correspondent)
- In the halls of factory workers say about new engine: "our engine." Previously, similar tests were conducted in an atmosphere of secrecy, but now the regime is more open. And it has brought its results

(One of factory engineers)
- All employees are encouraged by success, they fell their significance. In our group a wonderful atmosphere. They are constantly, day and night working to improve the engine, make it even better.

(Correspondent)
- Prospects for the new engine are immense. It is important that the scheme is mainly use the serial hubs that have multi tests in time. Its reliability is very high.
Its use will enable revive the scheme of one-engine. Russia has about 600 such machines. Big interest has been from military of India, which has 700 fighter aircraft ready for this powerful update. This renew jets of 3 generation to 4+ generation. India provided the the factory test aircraft for these promising developments.

This engine is unique in the world. And after two years he will be serialized.

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## duhastmish

1. *Sukhoi is suddenly coy about the prospects for the first flight of the T-50 demonstrator by end-year. It was only a few months ago that Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan confidently predicted the PAK-FA demonstrator would fly before 2010. Asked about that prediction today, he told reporters that Sukhoi would have more information about first flight at the Farnborough air show next July.*


delayed - Postponed again.................

Random 5: Paris Air Show Day 1 - The DEW Line
--------------------

June 15, 2009, (Sawf News) - The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed by Russia with some Indian financing is unlikely to take to the air by the end of this year as projected earlier, reports Flight Magazine.

Referring to earlier reports that the first demonstrator will fly before the end of 2009, with serial production starting by 2010, Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan played coy on the opening day of Paris Air Show, June 15, saying he would have more information about first flight at the Farnborough air show next July!

Speaking at the sidelines of a meeting in Russian Far East city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Monday, May 11, Russian deputy prime minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists:

"By the end of this year, the plane will rise into the air and flight tests will begin."

According to announced plans, the FGFA is to be inducted into the Russian Air Force by 2015 and into the Indian Air Force by 2017.

The fighter, estimated to be in the 30t category, is expected to feature super maneuverability, super cruise and stealth with an internal weapon bay. It is also expected to feature an advanced variant of the Tikhomirov Instrument Engineering Research Institute developed N035 Irbis-E radar that equips the Su-35BM.

Russia and India will simultaneously develop two versions of the combat aircraft - a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India's air superiority policy, and a single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.

News Copyright &#169; Sawf News. May not be reproduced without explicit written permission

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/58475.aspx


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## Jako

Aww...not this one too.....but,nice to hear it will enter the iaf by 2017,that will be the single sitter i guess....,.it seems like,the fgpa and mrca are gonna be inducted simultaneously at that point of time.......good


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## sancho

Jako said:


> Aww...not this one too.....but,nice to hear it will enter the iaf by 2017,that will be the single sitter i guess....,.it seems like,the fgpa and mrca are gonna be inducted simultaneously at that point of time.......good


India won't get a single seater, the FGFA will be a double seater like Su 30 MKI. Also Suchoi said that don't want to build both at the same time, but want to concentrate on Pak Fa first and build FGFA later.


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## Jako

Yes thats what i'm saying....during the 1st phase india wd also get the one sitter,right?? Only after a few years,that we wd get the india specific version......india wd too recieve the first...


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## SU50

Doesnt look like it. we have only shown interest in the 2 seater version. For the one seater needs it looks like MCA is the one we are counting on. For the time being india has no imidiate plans to get a 5th gen plane in our hands. Its more like FGFA would take the mantle of our air superiority fighter from MKI when finished and inducted which wont be for a long time (but before MCA... prove me wrong HAL). They are going to finish PAK FA first and then the FGFA so there is a lot of time left (maybe 2023-5?).


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## SU50

le_souriceau said:


> By the way, the russian abbreviation PAK FA mean something like "Advanced Tactical Aviation Aircraft Complex", or more precisely "Perspective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation" (&#1088;&#1091;&#1089;. &#1055;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089; &#1092;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080. But there is problem in 100% correct translation, because some specifics of russian military-technical language.
> 
> AND as bonus : )
> 
> Im translated for you russian video from post #19. Here english text (its about engine - not plane).
> 
> (TV dictor)
> - Our correspondent was able to visit the first tests of unique fifth generation engine . There is full-scale works on Russia's largest warfactory "Salut".
> 
> (Correspondent)
> - Slight hissing, clicking, and a cluster with titanium plates, jet engine moves to the left. Another click - right, and then to the bottom and on a circle. Movement is managed by the computer. He also controls such simple, just at first view, turning mechanism. To make it work on real engines, nearly 10 years all the major aviation companies hard worked worldwide.
> 
> This is a test room. It is tightly closed. Next to him will be using cameras and computers. The air flow rate in the chamber - 120-150 kilometers per hour.
> 
> Run. Power grows. Thrust 3 tons, 5, 10.5. Now the most difficult. Reactive jet starts go to side. The temperature at the outlet of above 1000 degrees. The throw to the right, mimicking the sharp anti-missile maneuver of aircraft in combat. Now to left. Leaf yields of nozzle pressure, but the computer finds the correct balance.
> 
> (One of constructors)
> - The fifth-generation engine must have a high performance, but it should be simple, cheap and interchangeable with regard to existing aircraft for modernization. This is how we make it.
> 
> (Correspondent)
> - In the halls of factory workers say about new engine: "our engine." Previously, similar tests were conducted in an atmosphere of secrecy, but now the regime is more open. And it has brought its results
> 
> (One of factory engineers)
> - All employees are encouraged by success, they fell their significance. In our group a wonderful atmosphere. They are constantly, day and night working to improve the engine, make it even better.
> 
> (Correspondent)
> - Prospects for the new engine are immense. It is important that the scheme is mainly use the serial hubs that have multi tests in time. Its reliability is very high.
> Its use will enable revive the scheme of one-engine. Russia has about 600 such machines. Big interest has been from military of India, which has 700 fighter aircraft ready for this powerful update. This renew jets of 3 generation to 4+ generation. India provided the the factory test aircraft for these promising developments.
> 
> This engine is unique in the world. And after two years he will be serialized.



i would thank you if i knew how too


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## Jako

To induct fgfa or pakfa into iaf by 2017(as said),the earlier ones surely has to be the one seater pakfa.......development of india specific version wd take a few more years


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## sancho

Jako said:


> Yes thats what i'm saying....during the 1st phase india wd also get the one sitter,right?? Only after a few years,that we wd get the india specific version......india wd too recieve the first...


No mate, IAF wanted only double seat versions and that's why Russia will change the airframe for us. It was the same thing with Su 30 MKI, Russia offered Su 35 but it is only a single seater, which doesn't fit in IAF doctrine. So we went with Su 30 with some improvements of Su 35/Su 37 like PESA radar, or 2D TVC. 

IF (and that's a big if) the first flight of Pak Fa will really be this year, it could enter service in 2015 and 1, or 2 years later FGFA. But even Russia is pushing the project very hard and the engine should be close to be ready (first version of AL41 already in service in latest Su 35 and reports said in can supercruise), there still can be delays. Internal weapon bay and AESA radar should not be a problem for them, but full stealth could be one. 
US have experiense with F117, F22, B2 and still nobody is really sure how stealthy the F35 will be. Pak Fa could be a huge fighter (same class as Su 30, or slighty lower like F18SH maybe), anyway I can't wait to see the first real pics of it, but since we saw all the great drawings, we might be disappointed. 

Another point that could be interesting for us is (cause it might depend on when Pak Fa will enter in Russian service), which techs of it we can get for MKI upgrade around 2015. Engine for sure, with supercruse and 3D TVC capabilities, but will we get the new AESA radar when Pak Fa will not be ready then? Other options could be NIIP Irbis-E radar (PESA) from latest Su 35 version, or maybe Zhuk AE (AESA) from Mig 35, if it fits.


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## gambit

sancho said:


> No mate, IAF wanted only double seat versions and that's why Russia will change the airframe for us. It was the same thing with Su 30 MKI, Russia offered Su 35 but it is only a single seater, which doesn't fit in IAF doctrine. So we went with Su 30 with some improvements of Su 35/Su 37 like PESA radar, or 2D TVC.
> 
> IF (and that's a big if) the first flight of Pak Fa will really be this year, it could enter service in 2015 and 1, or 2 years later FGFA. But even Russia is pushing the project very hard and the engine should be close to be ready (first version of AL41 already in service in latest Su 35 and reports said in can supercruise), there still can be delays. Internal weapon bay and AESA radar should not be a problem for them, but full stealth could be one.
> US have experiense with F117, F22, B2 and still *nobody is really sure how stealthy the F35 will be*. Pak Fa could be a huge fighter (same class as Su 30, or slighty lower like F18SH maybe), anyway I can't wait to see the first real pics of it, but since we saw all the great drawings, we might be disappointed.
> 
> Another point that could be interesting for us is (cause it might depend on when Pak Fa will enter in Russian service), which techs of it we can get for MKI upgrade around 2015. Engine for sure, with supercruse and 3D TVC capabilities, but will we get the new AESA radar when Pak Fa will not be ready then? Other options could be NIIP Irbis-E radar (PESA) from latest Su 35 version, or maybe Zhuk AE (AESA) from Mig 35, if it fits.


We do...



Most discussions and speculations about 'stealth' usually misses probably the most important factor -- distance. The US have never made the claim that our 'stealth' designs are 'invisible' to radar. The word 'invisible' was/is quite abused, even by official US statements. All aircrafts are detectable but the question is at what point out. The greatest threat that 'stealth' aircrafts poses, and keep in mind that we are talking about military aircrafts, is weapons delivery distance, be it bombs to a ground target or air-air missiles.

The closer to the target is the weapon, meaning within the weapon's best operating conditions, which is *NOT* its maximum range, the greater the odds of a successful kill. So the more difficult it is to detect whatever it is that is going to drop the bombs or fire the missiles at a specified X-distance, or less, the greater the threat is the 'stealth' aircraft. But at the same time, we are diligently working on expanding the weapon's 'best operating conditions' and that would include greater maximum range, be it bombs or missiles.

So if it is difficult to detect an F-35 at..say...200km out...by the time there is certainty that the target *IS* an F-35, it would be either weapons release time for the F-35 or that bombs were already on the way to the ground. Which pretty much defeat the purpose of air defense, which is to prevent bomb delivery in the first place. But if the F-35 carries a new bomb design with wings a small motor to give it some extra travel distance after it had been lobbed off the aircraft, and if this new travel distance is greater than the detectable and identifiable distance of the F-35, then this is where the word 'invisible' is carelessly bandied about and give people the wrong impression about 'stealth'. Namely, the ground radar never got a chance to even detect the attacker before it got blown to smithereens.

Just like in real estate where the three most important things are: Location, location and location. So it is for 'stealth', except the location of the 'stealth' aircraft is hard to pin down.


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## PAFAce

gambit said:


> So if it is difficult to detect an F-35 at..say...200km out...by the time there is certainty that the target *IS* an F-35, it would be either weapons release time for the F-35 or that bombs were already on the way to the ground. Which pretty much defeat the purpose of air defense, which is to prevent bomb delivery in the first place...
> 
> Just like in real estate where the three most important things are: Location, location and location. So it is for 'stealth', except the location of the 'stealth' aircraft is hard to pin down.



Hello gambit. 

You seem to be a very knowledgeable engineer to me with experience in the Aerospace Industry. I myself am a young engineer, and have just started my career in the Aerospace industry. I plan on starting my own company eventually, most likely related to the control and electronics side of aviation. Right now i'm working on a multi-sensor turret for L3 Communications WESCAM (here's a link and a video if you're interested: MX-15 or AN/AAQ-35 || Video)

I was wondering the other day, is it possible to have a single UAV produce the exact radiation required to deceive the enemy into thinking an aerial strike package was on its way? I mean, could you make them think that there was a formation of 4-8 aircrafts heading towards a particular point, when in fact it is just a single UAV with a radio transmitter attached to it? The idea seems pretty doable to me, and would be a very convenient way of deceiving an enemy. And once you've got your enemy deceived, he's at your mercy. "The way of the war is the way of deception".

I just thought I'd ask the question. It's been on my mind, and I can't seem to see why it hasn't already been tried. I'd like to know because I am very interested in experimenting with my own UAV designs.

Thanks.


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## duhastmish

pak-fa period of time called the first flight of fighter 5 th generation


The "dry" can begin testing the new fifth-generation fighter "after two years." This, according to Interfax, 16 June at Le Bourget said the company's general director Mikhail Pogosyan.

According to him, is not yet time to talk about the new plane. At the same time *he admitted that a substantive conversation about testing the fifth-generation aircraft could take place during the air show in Farnborough, to be held in 2010.*

Pogosyan said that "dry" is working on building the experimental samples. "Preparing for the start of the test. Holding talks with Indian counterparts on joint participation in this project," - said the director.

Russian fifth generation fighter is expected to be slabozametnym for radar, high-speed aircraft, equipped with sophisticated electronic equipment.

Currently, the fifth generation fighter F-22 and F-35 are produced only in the United States, but by the U.S. Army had only the first of them. The second project funded by the U.S. in conjunction with partner countries.

Source: news agency "Lenta.Ru"
Published: 16.06.2009, 15:59 


Guys i read - reread the artical and found this :::::::
_
substantive conversation about testing the fifth-generation aircraft could take place during the air show in Farnborough....... does that mean that we will talk about it , and it might have already happened ?_

The sukhoi can begin testing the new fifth-generation fighter "after two years"? so may be this year they will fly experimental samples and after two years real aircraft? remember how it went for ? f-22 it took them years from *yf-22 to f-22 same from x-35 to f-35.
*


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## sancho

gambit said:


> We do...
> 
> ...


Hehe, but still you had to admit to the British that the F35 could be not so stealthy you intended it to be. That's what I meant, I also think that it will be stealthy from distances as you explained, but in some simulations the Rafale wasn't that far behind.


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## gambit

PAFAce said:


> Hello gambit.
> 
> You seem to be a very knowledgeable engineer to me with experience in the Aerospace Industry. I myself am a young engineer, and have just started my career in the Aerospace industry. I plan on starting my own company eventually, most likely related to the control and electronics side of aviation. Right now i'm working on a multi-sensor turret for L3 Communications WESCAM (here's a link and a video if you're interested: MX-15 or AN/AAQ-35 || Video)
> 
> *I was wondering the other day, is it possible to have a single UAV produce the exact radiation required to deceive the enemy into thinking an aerial strike package was on its way? I mean, could you make them think that there was a formation of 4-8 aircrafts heading towards a particular point, when in fact it is just a single UAV with a radio transmitter attached to it?* The idea seems pretty doable to me, and would be a very convenient way of deceiving an enemy. And once you've got your enemy deceived, he's at your mercy. "The way of the war is the way of deception".
> 
> I just thought I'd ask the question. It's been on my mind, and I can't seem to see why it hasn't already been tried. I'd like to know because I am very interested in experimenting with my own UAV designs.
> 
> Thanks.


It is good that you are ambitious so here goes...

Currently, RCS reduction techniques are through passive measures such as body shaping *AND* materials that absorbs a certain level of energy of the radar signals that impact the body. They are rather loosely called radar absorbing materials (RAM), for lack of better terminologies.

Body shaping are done through basic understanding of radar signal *BEHAVIOR* on a body.












The F-117's body shaping and consequently radical RCS reduction was based upon the principle of reflection, that if a planar surface is angled, no matter how slight, any reflection off the surface will be away from source direction as illustrated above.






Now...Because no surface is ever completely smooth, microscopic irregularities create microscopic 'corner reflectors'. Corner reflectors, aka target corner reflectors, are created every time two surfaces or edges meet to create a corner and it is corner reflectors, microscopic or otherwise, that allow detection of the aircraft. Take a walk around the aircraft and it does not take long to recognize corner reflectors all over the body such as where the wing root meet the fuselage, for example.

So first...The aircraft became odd looking with so many angled facets. Then because no surface is ever truly smooth, RAM is installed onto these angled surfaces. The result is that a large part of the radar pulse's energy be reflected away from source direction, then some more energy is absorbed by RAM, then whatever remain of the original pulse that managed to be reflected back to the radar is so weak that the radar will dismiss that echo as 'clutter'. When we get to 'clutter' we are referring to echoes that we *DO NOT* want to display. Clutter is arbitrary. For a weapons radar, clouds are garbage but for a weather radar, aircrafts, balloons, birds, buildings, and people are garbage and cloud display are desirable. Clutter also involve constant false alarm processing (CFAR) but that is an entirely different discipline by itself. Clutter and CFAR together is a huge can of worms. Essentially, what we call 'stealth' is the desire to have the enemy think we belong in the 'garbage' region of radar detection and dismiss us until it is too late.

Next to the F-22...






When a radar pulse impact a curved surface, there are some reflections due to microscopic surface irregularities, but then we have the 'creeping wave' phenomenon...

Creeping wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Creeping waves greatly extend the ground wave propagation of long wavelength (low frequency) radio. They also cause both of a person's ears to hear a sound, rather than only the ear on the side of the head facing the origin of the sound. *In radar ranging, the creeping wave return appears to come from behind the target*.



Curved surfaces calculations are much more complex than angled surfaces because the B-2, F-22 and F-35 are not spheres but structurally complex objects. The F-117 was possible even when engineers were using sliderulers. For these aircrafts, their body forms were calculated by supercomputers that simulate nuclear explosions.






So next to a sphere, an _ogive_ is the next best shape to create electrically long distances for the creeping wave effect and because of the 'creeping wave' effect, the F-22 and its brethens uses far less RAM than the F-117. They need RAM only on the leading edges of the bodies.

Now we come to RAM...

There are:

Resistive
1 - Salisbury screen
2 - Dallenbach layering
3 - Jaumann layering

Inductive-Capacitive
4 - Circuit analog sheeting

The Salisbury screen is the simplest absorber and one that any second rate industrialized country can produce. But it is also the most limited in terms of bandwidth that it can 'absorb'. Then we have increasing sophistication with the Dallenbach and Jaumann layering techniques. To put it simply, each type is essentially a coating, either a solid but flexible sheet or liquid, that contains carbonyl iron or ferrite powders. The problems for the first three types of absorbers are limited bandwidth and with increased bandwidth capability comes the weight penalty. I have no problems telling you this information is because these materials are commercially available -- internal radome coatings. They sort of 'absorb' the transmissions then pass the signals through the radome. You can easily find online information for these three absorbers type.

Item 4 -- circuit analog sheeting -- is the next generation of 'stealth' aircrafts, which will be active RCS manipulators, not merely reducers.

For the first three absorbers, the particles are not uniform in distribution over a specified area. With the circuit analog sheeting technique, precise patterns are created by using multisheeting of the first three absorbers. You can get an idea of the level of complexity by doing some reading on photoetching techniques in semiconductor products manufacturing.

Molecular Expressions: The Silicon Zoo - Velociraptor

Shapes such as triangles, crosses or even stars can be useful. A pattern of these shapes does the same initial function as the ferrite particles in the first three layering techniques, which is to trap the radar signal, but different sizes and shapes gives control over inductance and the spacings between the patterns give control over capacitance. Electrically speaking, it is clearly superior and more flexible than resistive only absorbers.

Here is a small example of some of the things I spoke about...

Frequency tuning characteristics of capacitively loaded Salisbury screen radar absorber


> The frequency characteristics of a Salisbury screen radar absorber that incorporates a layer exhibiting both resistive and capacitive properties are considered. If the capacitance is fixed, the absorber thickness and hence weight may be reduced but at the expense of bandwidth. If the capacitance is variable then *the absorber may be tuned via an external control signal.* The practical limitations of both applications are discussed in relation to recent advances in conducting polymer materials


Inductive-Capacitive techniques are much more complex to manufacture. If you design a supercar with active suspension controls but do not install the computer and sensors that would actually make use of the hardwares, you have just wasted a lot of money for nothing. This mean that corresponding computer and software sophistication *MUST* accompany these techniques.

Everything I said so far only scratched the surfaces of radar detection and 'stealth' technologies and very much is the foundation of what you wish to enter. Your questions:



sipraomer said:


> ...is it possible to have a single *UAV produce the exact radiation* required to deceive the enemy...
> 
> ...when in fact it is just a single UAV with a radio transmitter attached to it?
> 
> It's been on my mind, and I can't seem to see why it hasn't already been tried.


Yes...But for a UAV to be successful at such deception, the aircraft must be an active RCS manipulator. As if that is not technically difficult enough, since every design has a unique RCS signature, like a submarine's screw noise, the aircraft must be programmed with the appropriate RCS signature it wishes to emulate to deceive the enemy. This is far more involved that just attaching a 'radio transmitter' and call it good. Naturally, the more RCS signatures programmed, the more flexible the system.

For the UAV...The design must be judicious at using angled facetings at certain areas and curved surfaces at other areas. So just because the F-117 is retired, that does not mean the principle that created the aircraft is obsolete. The panels that are of inductive-capacitive techniques can also be charged, like that of a transistor, and be an emitter, making possible the deception. But what is required from the development side is that you must become an adept *PREDICTOR* of how radar signals behave on and off a body, which leads back to all those figures I presented above. If you fly F-15s you must know as accurate as possible the RCS signatures of a clean F-15, an air-air configured F-15 and a ground strike configured F-15. After all, you are trying to convince an adversary that you are sending fighter-bombers from one direction when your forces are preparing to attack from another direction. The ghost fighter-bombers must be convincing. Keep in mind that any radar pulse that reflected off a body make that body an emitter, no matter how fleeting the signal. So why not attempt to control it, not merely mask it like the current techniques using ECM pods?

The US is already on track about making the next generation of 'stealth' aircrafts, manned or un-manned, being active RCS manipulators. The current generation of UAVs are already lethal to a certain degree. The lethality level of future UAVs will be the equal of manned aircrafts, giving the side that wields these weapons system, assuming adequate training, the ability to deceive and confuse its adversary to unprecedented level. The defender must, in very short time and under heavy pressure, decide to whether dispatch his resources to intercept ghosts, ghosts with some weapons, or a full air armada. He does not know. The time to recall his fighters would be the time he is under attack with little or no defense fighters.

This is why the F-117 made the Russians and the Chinese nervous. Neither have an equivalent. Arguments that ask the question about 'reinventing the wheel' misses the crucial point about having valid technical experience upon which progress requires. A country does not have to deploy an operational fleet of F-117 equivalent but for the sake of expertise, at least an indigenous design and at least a few fully flight capable models should exist for R/D purposes and to lay the foundation for the next generation of indigenous designs. You are treading into an area that have so many subcategories and that any of those subcategory can consume an engineer's entire career. I left avionics, particularly flight controls, over a decade ago for family related reasons and currently am in semicon products manufacturing. This is how I learned about how certain photoetching techniques can make possible quickly the next generation of 'stealth' aircrafts. I have given you sufficient leads and keywords upon which you can do your own research so enjoy reading what you find.

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## paritosh

gambit said:


> It is good that you are ambitious so here goes...
> 
> Currently, RCS reduction techniques are through passive measures such as body shaping *AND* materials that absorbs a certain level of energy of the radar signals that impact the body. They are rather loosely called radar absorbing materials (RAM), for lack of better terminologies.


active stealth measures are in rampant use...the EW jammers constitute the active stealth components on board many 3-4th gen planes.these active cancellation techniques destroy a part of the incoming mwave from the radar and render it useless...but the jammer for that, should know which frequency band it deals with because the mwave band extencd from HF to i guess 100s of Ghz...but nevertheless if you know the radar...jammers are a good bet for fooling the radar.


> The F-117's body shaping and consequently radical RCS reduction was based upon the principle of reflection, that if a planar surface is angled, no matter how slight, any reflection off the surface will be away from source direction as illustrated above.
> 
> 
> 
> Now...Because no surface is ever completely smooth, microscopic irregularities create microscopic 'corner reflectors'. Corner reflectors, aka target corner reflectors, are created every time two surfaces or edges meet to create a corner and it is corner reflectors, microscopic or otherwise, that allow detection of the aircraft. Take a walk around the aircraft and it does not take long to recognize corner reflectors all over the body such as where the wing root meet the fuselage, for example.
> 
> So first...The aircraft became odd looking with so many angled facets. Then because no surface is ever truly smooth, RAM is installed onto these angled surfaces. The result is that a large part of the radar pulse's energy be reflected away from source direction, then some more energy is absorbed by RAM, then whatever remain of the original pulse that managed to be reflected back to the radar is so weak that the radar will dismiss that echo as 'clutter'. When we get to 'clutter' we are referring to echoes that we *DO NOT* want to display. Clutter is arbitrary. For a weapons radar, clouds are garbage but for a weather radar, aircrafts, balloons, birds, buildings, and people are garbage and cloud display are desirable. Clutter also involve constant false alarm processing (CFAR) but that is an entirely different discipline by itself. Clutter and CFAR together is a huge can of worms. Essentially, what we call 'stealth' is the desire to have the enemy think we belong in the 'garbage' region of radar detection and dismiss us until it is too late.


yeah...the clutter threshold is adjustable for most radars either manually or though the use of intelligent softwares.a very simple techniques epmloyed in most modern radars of identifying valid targets masked as clutter is through the use of multiple prfs(pulse repetition frequencies)...i.e if a radar uses two prfs f1 and f2....valid targets(which are in motion like an enemy plane) would have two different RCSs...while the stationary clutter(an assumption that holds good for 99&#37; of the time) will have the same RCS on both the f1 and f2.
ideally a radar employs more than 2 prfs to get higher accuracy.
so LO/VLO can be outclassed by the current radar techs...the american f-22 and JSF are better at RCS reduction...i am sure that radars will catch up


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## gambit

paritosh said:


> active stealth measures are in rampant use...the EW jammers constitute the active stealth components on board many 3-4th gen planes.these active cancellation techniques destroy a part of the incoming mwave from the radar and render it useless...but the jammer for that, should know which frequency band it deals with because the mwave band extencd from HF to i guess 100s of Ghz...but nevertheless if you know the radar...jammers are a good bet for fooling the radar.


No...What you speak of is *NOT* active RCS manipulation techniques but still fall within the masking of the body's RCS domain.

Please read my post #93 on how pulse freq repition jittering, along with other techniques, on how to counter ECM system that employ pulse sampling techniques.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/27367-why-pakistan-not-purchasing-rafale-7.html



paritosh said:


> yeah...the clutter threshold is adjustable for most radars either manually or though the use of intelligent softwares.a very simple techniques epmloyed in most modern radars of identifying valid targets masked as clutter is through the use of multiple prfs(pulse repetition frequencies)...i.e if a radar uses two prfs f1 and f2....valid targets(which are in motion like an enemy plane) would have two different RCSs...while the stationary clutter(an assumption that holds good for 99% of the time) will have the same RCS on both the f1 and f2.
> ideally a radar employs more than 2 prfs to get higher accuracy.
> so LO/VLO can be outclassed by the current radar techs...the american f-22 and JSF are better at RCS reduction...i am sure that radars will catch up


It would not matter much on how many different pulse repition freqs are used. Lowering the clutter threshold will increase false alarms (CFAR) and compel the human operators to either ignore many alarms or to raise the threshold level back up to where it was. A valid return, even if the target is moving, would still be masked amidst so many of those false alarms. Further, it is not the prf that will detect a 'stealth' design, it is the wavelength that matter more. It is accepted that nothing is really 'invisible' at 1ghz and below. Multiple prfs techniques are not used for target detection but for validation, aka correlation, especially in a crowded electronic environment like a city with a busy airport. But regardless of multiple prfs techniques, if the first transmission with prf_1 will have a difficult time detecting a 'stealth' aircraft, prf_2 will also have the same problem.

There is an issue with using multiple prf techniques and that has to do with a property called 'finite pulse length'. Unlike a continuous wave (CW) mode of operation, a pulse has a leading edge and a trailing edge, the beginning of the pulse's energy and a cut-off point.

RADAR *PULSE *CHARACTERISTICS


> Increased PRF speeds the rate at which targets are repeatedly radiated. This increased sampling results in greater target detail, but the maximum range of the radar is reduced because of the shorter periods between pulses.



Range Ambiguity


> *If the period between successive pulses is too short*, an echo from a distant target may return after the transmitter has emitted another pulse. This would make it impossible to tell whether the observed pulse is the echo of the pulse just transmitted or the echo of the preceding pulse. This produces a situation referred to as range ambiguity. The radar is unable to distinguish between pulses, and derives range information that is ambiguous (unreliable)


Increasing the gaps between pulses, aka widening the prf, will increase speed ambiguity *IF* the target is detected in the first place. Keep in mind that pulses have timestamps via their leading and trailing edges and they are how we calculate target range and speed. There is always some trade-offs. This is why there are distincts radar operations: Search with long wavelengths and therefore with long pulse gaps. Track with shorter of both and finally Targeting with millimetric freqs which has the shortest of both.

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## paritosh

gambit said:


> It would not matter much on how many different pulse repition freqs are used. Lowering the clutter threshold will increase false alarms (CFAR) and compel the human operators to either ignore many alarms or to raise the threshold level back up to where it was. A valid return, even if the target is moving, would still be masked amidst so many of those false alarms.


see...you are right with that...but many times the operators are taught to oscillate between a lower clutter threshold and the one prescribed by the radar manufacturers...although this is a bad practise as it lowers the radar's life(can cause a receiver burnout even with the best of duplexers limiters protectors..shutter and stuff)
i will tell you from the experience of using sub-standard radars...the ones which the IAF had in '71...now those were stupid radars...and worked for an unambiguous range 1/2 of the mentioned range on the data sheets which many people realized after installing them...
so many times the operators had to lower the threshold to detect the excessive clutter...and then push it up again...the faint clutter of the latter used to turn into a large clutter in the former...so they could detect at a large range...damaging the receiver in the process.



> Further, it is not the prf that will detect a 'stealth' design, it is the wavelength that matter more. It is accepted that nothing is really 'invisible' at 1ghz and below. Multiple prfs techniques are not used for target detection but for validation, aka correlation, especially in a crowded electronic environment like a city with a busy airport. But regardless of multiple prfs techniques, if the first transmission with prf_1 will have a difficult time detecting a 'stealth' aircraft, prf_2 will also have the same problem.


yes you are absolutely right...a lower wavelenght would have a good gain...and so would a narrow beamwidth...but there are trade-offs...and so the ideal radar doesnt work...


> There is an issue with using multiple prf techniques and that has to do with a property called 'finite pulse length'. Unlike a continuous wave (CW) mode of operation, a pulse has a leading edge and a trailing edge, the beginning of the pulse's energy and a cut-off point.
> 
> Increasing the gaps between pulses, aka widening the prf, will increase speed ambiguity *IF* the target is detected in the first place. Keep in mind that pulses have timestamps via their leading and trailing edges and they are how we calculate target range and speed. There is always some trade-offs. This is why there are distincts radar operations: Search with long wavelengths and therefore with long pulse gaps. Track with shorter of both and finally Targeting with millimetric freqs which has the shortest of both.



see...almost any modern radar can be made to function with multiple prfs nowadays with the aid of better control softwares....and tunable filters and mixers...
and we do have different radars for acquisition and tracking that work in sync. and through phased arrays...which the latter part of your posts explains


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## Screaming Skull

*PARIS AIR SHOW: Sukhoi secretive on PAK-FA programmes​*
17/06/09

Sukhoi is still working on a prototype of its fifth-generation "PAK-FA" advanced tactical frontline fighter, but the schedule for its flight-test programme remains unconfirmed, despite earlier indications that the aircraft would fly in 2009.

The Russian manufacturer is focusing its promotional efforts at the show on the Superjet 100 regional jet. Director general Mikhail Pogosyan says he will talk about the fifth-generation fighter at the next Farnborough air show "or later". It is "something for the future", he says.

*Pogosyan confirms that the company is creating a prototype and preparing for the start of trials, and that internal discussions regarding the prototype are under way. Beyond that, any communication on the programme awaits the outcome of trials. Last year, Russian news agency RIA Novosti quoted industry and energy minister Viktor Khristenko as saying that "the flight tests of the aircraft are scheduled to begin in 2009".*

*Though reticent on the specifics of the PAK-FA programme, Pogosyan is confident of success in the Indian fighter contest, in which the MiG-35 has been entered. The MiG aircraft has "a good chance of winning", he says. It has already completed flight tests with the Indian air force.*

Of its existing contract with Malaysia for MiG-29K fighters, Pogosyan says that the six aircraft it is due to deliver to the nation will arrive by the end of 2009.

Meanwhile domestic demand for fighters is growing, says Pogosyan. A 50:50 split between domestic and export business is the company's target. It is also aiming at the following split of business: 40% military, 40% commercial and 20% services.

Toward this end *Sukhoi is "keen on raising the quality" of after-sales service. "We really need it," admits Pogosyan, citing both the military and commercial segments. Sukhoi has accordingly focused efforts on integration of its logistics and support services, as well as closer co-operation between Sukhoi and MiG, with joint development of future products likely.*

Le Bourget is "not a place where you conclude contracts for military aircraft", says Pogosyan. However, new announcements are likely at Russia's MAKS 2009 show, he adds.

Sukhoi is "not free of impact" from the financial crisis, Pogosyan admits. However, he adds that crisis had the effect of boosting the speed of decision-making, particularly when it came to decisions on acquisition of domestic fighter aircraft. "I like working at crisis times," says Pogosyan, adding that crisis made the strong stronger and the weak weaker.

PARIS AIR SHOW: Sukhoi secretive on PAK-FA programmes

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## King Julien

Screaming Skull said:


> Though reticent on the specifics of the PAK-FA programme, Pogosyan is confident of success in the Indian fighter contest, in which the MiG-35 has been entered. The MiG aircraft has "a good chance of winning", he says. It has already completed flight tests with the Indian air force.



have the flight evaluation started?


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## xebex

PAK-FA suspense is killing me.


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## duhastmish

Mr. pogoysan said in this interview that - pakfa will be there for us to see by 2009. 
as told by a russian friend - may be some russian memeber can translate this video for more detail. its about super jet but they do talk of t50. 
Âåñòè.Ru: íîâîñòè, âèäåî è ôîòî äíÿ


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## ironman

*Russian pride - PAK-FA, finally being prepared for take-off ​*
Russian pride - PAK-FA, finally being prepared for take-off Russian pride - PAK-FA, finally being prepared for take-off

The Russian fifth generation fighter ready for testing, and promises to be an analogue pokruche American - F-35

June 17, from the Ministry of Defense has good news. At a meeting of the state defense order, Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Vladimir Popovkin announced that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft is practically ready, and in December it would begin flight testing.


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## Arun tevar

xebex said:


> PAK-FA suspense is killing me.



Wait & watch,because last will surely b the latest.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

This project will help China in their J-11 project too


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## Jako

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> This project will help China in their J-11 project too



care to say,how???


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## Gabbar

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> This project will help China in their J-11 project too



*Now you killing me with the suspense. 
Please enlighten me how is this going to help?​*


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Sorry the project is J-xx not J-11

J-XX 5th-Generation Fighter Aircraft

China is believed to have been conducting preliminary research on its fifth -generation fighter aircraft since the late 1990s. The fighter, codenamed by Western intelligence as J-XX or XXJ, was described as an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter with extensive radar cross section (RCS) reduction features such as internal weapon bay. So far very little information regarding the project has been revealed, though it is understood that the two primary fighter aircraft design institutes of the China Aviation Industries Corporation (AVIC) &#8211; Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (601 Institute) and Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute) &#8211; have both been working on their own designs to bid for the PLA&#8217;s contract.


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## Jako

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Sorry the project is J-xx not J-11
> 
> J-XX 5th-Generation Fighter Aircraft
> 
> China is believed to have been conducting preliminary research on its fifth -generation fighter aircraft since the late 1990s. The fighter, codenamed by Western intelligence as J-XX or XXJ, was described as an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter with extensive radar cross section (RCS) reduction features such as internal weapon bay. So far very little information regarding the project has been revealed, though it is understood that the two primary fighter aircraft design institutes of the China Aviation Industries Corporation (AVIC) &#8211; Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (601 Institute) and Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute) &#8211; have both been working on their own designs to bid for the PLA&#8217;s contract.



ok good......but how the hell is indo-russian jv pakfa gonna help this chinese project?!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Chinese are good in using reaches work even secretly done in USA so Its Russia for $$ they will help Chinese in making J-xx work and why to reinvent the wheel again when they can copy tech from Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA project.


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## Jako

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Chinese are good in using reaches work even secretly done in USA so Its Russia for $$ they will help Chinese in making J-xx work and why to reinvent the wheel again when they can copy tech from Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA project.



stop posting bs.......


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## Gabbar

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Chinese are good in using reaches work even secretly done in USA so Its Russia for $$ they will help Chinese in making J-xx work and why to reinvent the wheel again when they can copy tech from Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA project.



So you are hoping Chinese will copy this aircraft? Copy is not good as original. Who know when PAK-FA is going to be ready for induction and you were saying that China is working 5TH GEN since 1990s, so chinese are suppose to be ahead this right? Russia will never export this air craft to Chinese due to India being partner in this project.

*Man I really thought that you might have good logical argument or explanation. I was wrong!!!!!!*


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Ok, time will tell


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## BSF

> Sorry the project is J-xx not J-11
> 
> J-XX 5th-Generation Fighter Aircraft
> 
> China is believed to have been conducting preliminary research on its fifth -generation fighter aircraft since the late 1990s. The fighter, codenamed by Western intelligence as J-XX or XXJ, was described as an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter with extensive radar cross section (RCS) reduction features such as internal weapon bay. So far very little information regarding the project has been revealed, though it is understood that the two primary fighter aircraft design institutes of the China Aviation Industries Corporation (AVIC) &#8211; Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (601 Institute) and Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute) &#8211; have both been working on their own designs to bid for the PLA&#8217;s contract.



Huston we got a problem.......


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## Screaming Skull

Gin ka Pakistan might be true. The Russians have refused to commit to us regarding the exclusivity of the tech. In fact this was supposed to be major bone of contention between the MoD and Russia. India wanted Russia to commit that they wouldn't sell these jets to China, but Russia refused to agree to that. If Chinese indeed show interest in the PAK-FA, then the cash strapped Russians might be forced to sell it to China. But, the FGFA like the MKI will be custom made for India and I don't think the Chinese will be able to get their hands on that!


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## Jako

Pakfa is gonna be inducted in the iaf itself post 2017........so this project helping the jxx project IS bs


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Gabbar said:


> So you are hoping Chinese will copy this aircraft? Copy is not good as original. Who know when PAK-FA is going to be ready for induction and you were saying that China is working 5TH GEN since 1990s, so chinese are suppose to be ahead this right? Russia will never export this air craft to Chinese due to India being partner in this project.
> 
> *Man I really thought that you might have good logical argument or explanation. I was wrong!!!!!!*



Who said export , its using others technology for their own use. 
J-10 == F-16 
J-11 == Su27 or Su31
J-xx == PAK-FA


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Screaming Skull said:


> Gin ka Pakistan might be true. The Russians have refused to commit to us regarding the exclusivity of the tech. In fact this was supposed to be major bone of contention between the MoD and Russia. India wanted Russia to commit that they wouldn't sell these jets to China, but Russia refused to agree to that. If Chinese indeed show interest in the PAK-FA, then the cash strapped Russians might be forced to sell it to China. But, the FGFA like the MKI will be custom made for India and I don't think the Chinese will be able to get their hands on that!



Russians have refused to commit to us regarding the exclusivity of the tech.


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## Gabbar

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Who said export , its using others technology for their own use.
> J-10 == F-16
> J-11 == Su27 or Su31
> J-xx == PAK-FA



*J-11== Su27*: Chinese have Su27 in thier Air force, so they can copy that. 
*J-10==F-16*: How is J-10 is equivlent to F-16? Outer shape does not mean that it's good as F-16. F-16 will take J-10 out of the sky any give day.

J-xx == PAK-FA ???????????????????????????????????????????


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## Gin ka Pakistan

J-10 is based on Israeli project to modify F-16 taken up by Chinese later
in 90s Japan had the same project X to modify F-16.


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## pmukherjee

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> J-10 is based on Israeli project to modify F-16 taken up by Chinese later
> in 90s Japan had the same project X to modify F-16.



Yes Israelis were making the Lavi which was shelved. Not sure if it was a modification of the F-16. It is also similar to Mig-33, another project which did not take off.

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## PAFAce

Gabbar said:


> *J-10==F-16*: How is J-10 is equivlent to F-16? Outer shape does not mean that it's good as F-16. F-16 will take J-10 out of the sky any give day.


Gabbar, it is widely believed that the upgraded J-10 will be equivalent to top Block F-16s in terms of multifaceted capabilities. Of course, this is all hearsay until something concrete comes out. But, I don't see why the Chinese would be interested in producing anything that is inferior to one of the most widely used fighters in the world, especially when India is getting stronger with Su-30MKIs and MMRCAs.



pmukherjee said:


> Yes Israelis were making the Lavi which was shelved. Not sure if it was a modification of the F-16.


The Lavi was an F-16 modification, but the J-10 is not a Lavi modification or upgrade. That is a widespread misunderstanding. Research data from the Lavi project may have been made available to the Chinese, of course, but that is common practice in the world of aviation.



Screaming Skull said:


> Gin ka Pakistan might be true. The Russians have refused to commit to us regarding the exclusivity of the tech. In fact this was supposed to be major bone of contention between the MoD and Russia. India wanted Russia to commit that they wouldn't sell these jets to China, but Russia refused to agree to that. If Chinese indeed show interest in the PAK-FA, then the cash strapped Russians might be forced to sell it to China. But, the FGFA like the MKI will be custom made for India and I don't think the Chinese will be able to get their hands on that!


This happened with the Biritish as well. They are the only Level 1 partners in the JSF program, but the Americans have refused to make available to them in-house production capability as well as the right to dictate foreign sales. I don't believe Russia will ever want India to dictate its foreign policy and military sales, especially since India has been turning more and more towards the West for military needs. I believe India will have to settle for a compromise, which is fine, because the Indians will still have the ability to customize the FGFA to their needs, unlike other foreign customers.

*Edit*
I just realized that I helped in the hijacking of this thread, titled "Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA". I apologise. Let's get back on topic.

According to some sources, the PAK-FA is supposed to begin flight-testing by 2010. How is this possible? it took the Americans 20 years to complete the ATF program, and even longer if you consider the lead-up projects such as the SR-71, F-117, B-2 etc. The only Russian aircraft that I've seen demonstrating "next-gen" technology was the Su-47. Maybe I am just ill-informed of Russian progress in this area, in which case, I hope someone can fill me.

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## Arun tevar

PAFAce said:


> Gabbar, it is widely believed that the upgraded J-10 will be equivalent to top Block F-16s in terms of multifaceted capabilities. Of course, this is all hearsay until something concrete comes out. But, I don't see why the Chinese would be interested in producing anything that is inferior to one of the most widely used fighters in the world, especially when India is getting stronger with Su-30MKIs and MMRCAs.
> 
> 
> The Lavi was an F-16 modification, but the J-10 is not a Lavi modification or upgrade. That is a widespread misunderstanding. Research data from the Lavi project may have been made available to the Chinese, of course, but that is common practice in the world of aviation.
> 
> 
> This happened with the Biritish as well. They are the only Level 1 partners in the JSF program, but the Americans have refused to make available to them in-house production capability as well as the right to dictate foreign sales. I don't believe Russia will ever want India to dictate its foreign policy and military sales, especially since India has been turning more and more towards the West for military needs. I believe India will have to settle for a compromise, which is fine, because the Indians will still have the ability to customize the FGFA to their needs, unlike other foreign customers.
> 
> *Edit*
> I just realized that I helped in the hijacking of this thread, titled "Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA". I apologise. Let's get back on topic.
> 
> According to some sources, the PAK-FA is supposed to begin flight-testing by 2010. How is this possible? it took the Americans 20 years to complete the ATF program, and even longer if you consider the lead-up projects such as the SR-71, F-117, B-2 etc. The only Russian aircraft that I've seen demonstrating "next-gen" technology was the Su-47. Maybe I am just ill-informed of Russian progress in this area, in which case, I hope someone can fill me.



Bhai,remember that the Americans started there 5th gen programme when others were just having a mature introduction of there 4th gen A.Cs.So they had to take a huge leap,even the russies had such ambitions but after the colapse of USSR,it just remained on paper.Now things r different,any country having a good 4++ a.c. platform and a good knowledge of stealth can easily aim for the next gen A.C.


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## duhastmish

*you idiots have screewed this thread - this is one thread i really look forward to !! and you just ruined it- 

gabbar, PAFACE dont listen to any crap about j-10 or su-mki which is not realted to this thread *

j-10 is amazing but this is not the place to talk about it . dont ruin this thread. and where the heck did levi come in for pak-fa.
----------------------

*and please provide source where it says - russians can sell this fighter to chinese. ITS TOTAL NONSENSE. what the hell joint venture means ????
if russian become so unreliable india always have a option for -JSF-35.

why talk from your behind please dont just throw nonsense - without proof. *

if you want i can show you 1000 source where india was provided with option of jsf-35 , venture and chinese wont get it for sure. If chinese wanted to have pak-fa they can go for other fifth gen fighter programem with russians - they have 2 programme of similer nature - and they want partner for second rpgramme too


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## Arun tevar

duhastmish said:


> *you idiots have screewed this thread - this is one thread i really look forward to !! and you just ruined it-
> 
> gabbar, PAFACE dont listen to any crap about j-10 or su-mki which is not realted to this thread *
> 
> j-10 is amazing but this is not the place to talk about it . dont ruin this thread. and where the heck did levi come in for pak-fa.
> ----------------------
> 
> *and please provide source where it says - russians can sell this fighter to chinese. ITS TOTAL NONSENSE. what the hell joint venture means ????
> if russian become so unreliable india always have a option for -JSF-35.
> 
> why talk from your behind please dont just throw nonsense - without proof. *
> 
> if you want i can show you 1000 source where india was provided with option of jsf-35 , venture and chinese wont get it for sure. If chinese wanted to have pak-fa they can go for other fifth gen fighter programem with russians - they have 2 programme of similer nature - and they want partner for second rpgramme too



Bro yar,control bhai control.aram se, pyar se samjaoo.


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## duhastmish

Arun tevar said:


> Bro yar,control bhai control.aram se, pyar se samjaoo.



looool - he he he he - lost it there , but its crazy man 

- they just derail the thread and then it becomes waste its not same fun anymore


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## Gin ka Pakistan

duhastmish said:


> looool - he he he he - lost it there , but its crazy man
> 
> - they just derail the thread and then it becomes waste its not same fun anymore



Teased your own medicine


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## Arun tevar

Ok,buddies back to the topic


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## aimarraul

any update on this plan&#65311;


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## Arun tevar

aimarraul said:


> any update on this plan?



The mca posts please post in the respective thread.
The a.c. is now in the stage of drawing out specifications and requirements.


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## Neo

*Stick to the topic please, useless oneliners will be deleted.*

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## Gabbar

Source BRF.

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## Gabbar




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## ironman

Sorry bad translation..
*Putin saved another plant: the creators of secret Russian fighter promised not to dismiss​*
05.06.09 16:03
Komsomolsk-on-Amur, June 05 (New Region, Alexander Rodionov) - At KnAAPO where secrecy created a Russian fifth generation fighter PAK FA, began reducing the workforce. Already released 80 people, it is possible that further optimization of the number - previously referred to the reduction of more than a thousand people. However, the negative glow of the factory management and workers able to pay visit to KnAAPO Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. The factory told about the agreement between Putin and the head of AKH «Dry» Michael Pogosyanom, however, the document still has not been seen. In these circumstances, continuing the creation of a super secret PAK-FA, the first flight by the Prime Ivanov promises already this year.

At «Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production merge them. Gagarin »(KnAAPO included in AKH« dry ») reduction started on 3 June, laid off about 80 people - told the factory trade union representative Paul Arslanova. But according to him, formally, by the time some people went to the factory yourself: «Knowing that the reductions can not be avoided, some employees chose to do so in advance by writing a statement on the resignations». In this promise, that skilled workers, including those who collect PAK FA, reduction did not affect - mostly retirees KnAAPO fired. Would have dismissed, is not yet known.

However, at the plant believe that large-scale reductions KnAAPO rescued May visit Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who showed the most secret development of Russia in recent years - the fifth generation multipurpose fighter PAK FA - to create it in the shops KnAAPO. It can be assumed that seen but not yet the finished product impressed the Premier, and he promised the company new orders.

«Following the visit of Vladimir Putin, we were told that he and Mikhail Pogosyan (Chapter aviaholdinga« Dry », approx. ÍÐ) signed some agreement guaranteeing KnAAPO download new products. However, this document has still not been seen. But there is a shift to increased rates of tariff level, for which we fought all the time. Factory administration agreed to meet the team and from September will be made to recalculate it », - noted Paul Arslanov.

But as the case with construction of the PAC FA - are still unknown. At KnAAPO flatly refused to discuss this topic - it had a subscription to withhold information containing state secrets. As the correspondent of «new region», the mystery of PAK FA is indeed strictly protected - for several years in the media do not trickled no one photo of this development, and its layout has never publicly demonstrated. Now the special variety of countries and simple avialyubiteli burned with curiosity, and the last cheat the interpretation of the look of the car. Judging by the majority of images, almost all artists compare with the Russian aircraft F-22 Raptor - features «American» guessed almost all the outline.

Meanwhile, based on statements by government officials who promise to fly PAK FA in 2009, it can be assumed that the center's secret airplane is almost ready. This gives hope that the statement by Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov term sailplane PAK FA will be able to really try. However, whether there are working engines and avionics - the big question. At the same time aware that the draft budget-2009 funding for the development of the PAC FA were going to cut to 938.1 million rubles.


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## ironman

*"Dry" is catching the Americans to create "invisible"​*
06.03.09 18:45
So believe in KB "Dry", which is developing the aircraft.

The German military portal Rrofessionals Defence published an article "What happens when the American monopoly on the" Stealth "? It says that a Russian fighter is able to create competition in the air and on the world market to American aircraft F-22 and F-35. This indicates that the claimed specifications PAK FA to meet the perfect date, F-22, whose purpose is to ensure American supremacy in the air.

The author acknowledges that Russia is able to create a "fighter-invisible." Russian enterprises can produce profiles of the aircraft, ensuring low. The use of special coatings and materials that absorb and reflect no locator signals, making the aircraft virtually invisible to enemy radar.

Modern Russian engine technology is not inferior to the West, noted in the KB "Dry." This is similar to the American technology of the flat nozzle engine for PAK FA in order to reach its low. It also notes that the latest Su-35 fighter had used a digital flight control systems and setetsentricheskie technology management and governance battle.

The latest generation of Russian radar with active phased-array grating used digital technology and algorithms for fast data processing, similar to the American radar technologies that have emerged in this decade.

The article emphasizes that nearly PAK FA will make ineffective or complicate the use of American air-to-air long-range. As a result, the air battle will occur in medium and small distances within the line of sight. And chances are equal F-22 and PAK FA.

According to experts, F-35 is already experiencing difficulty in countering the Su-35 with its low effective area of reflection of radar signals, an equal area of a tennis ball. Upon reaching the same PAK FA lower in the area reflect the radar signal a new American fighter F-35, in the opinion of the author of the article falls into the same "black hole struggle for survival", and that the F-16C / E, F-15C / E and F/A-18A-F.

The first prototypes PAK FA manufactured in Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association in them. Yuri Gagarin.

As the general director of holding "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan was held in February at Aero India 2009 exhibition, the first flights of new aircraft will take place already this year.

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## pmukherjee

ironman said:


> *"Dry" is catching the Americans to create "invisible"​*
> 06.03.09 18:45
> So believe in KB "Dry", which is developing the aircraft.
> 
> The German military portal Rrofessionals Defence published an article "What happens when the American monopoly on the" Stealth "? It says that a Russian fighter is able to create competition in the air and on the world market to American aircraft F-22 and F-35. This indicates that the claimed specifications PAK FA to meet the perfect date, F-22, whose purpose is to ensure American supremacy in the air.
> 
> The author acknowledges that Russia is able to create a "fighter-invisible." Russian enterprises can produce profiles of the aircraft, ensuring low. The use of special coatings and materials that absorb and reflect no locator signals, making the aircraft virtually invisible to enemy radar.
> 
> Modern Russian engine technology is not inferior to the West, noted in the KB "Dry." This is similar to the American technology of the flat nozzle engine for PAK FA in order to reach its low. It also notes that the latest Su-35 fighter had used a digital flight control systems and setetsentricheskie technology management and governance battle.
> 
> The latest generation of Russian radar with active phased-array grating used digital technology and algorithms for fast data processing, similar to the American radar technologies that have emerged in this decade.
> 
> The article emphasizes that nearly PAK FA will make ineffective or complicate the use of American air-to-air long-range. As a result, the air battle will occur in medium and small distances within the line of sight. And chances are equal F-22 and PAK FA.
> 
> According to experts, F-35 is already experiencing difficulty in countering the Su-35 with its low effective area of reflection of radar signals, an equal area of a tennis ball. Upon reaching the same PAK FA lower in the area reflect the radar signal a new American fighter F-35, in the opinion of the author of the article falls into the same "black hole struggle for survival", and that the F-16C / E, F-15C / E and F/A-18A-F.
> 
> The first prototypes PAK FA manufactured in Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association in them. Yuri Gagarin.
> 
> As the general director of holding "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan was held in February at Aero India 2009 exhibition, the first flights of new aircraft will take place already this year.



I picked this up somewhere, as of now and in the foreseeable future, there is nothing to beat the F-22.

"The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.

The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.

If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.

However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.

You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.

The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.

In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.

There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.

I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.

For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.

As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.

The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them."

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## anathema

pmukherjee said:


> I picked this up somewhere, as of now and in the foreseeable future, there is nothing to beat the F-22.
> 
> "The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.
> 
> The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.
> 
> If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.
> 
> However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.
> 
> You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.
> 
> The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.
> 
> In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.
> 
> I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.
> 
> For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.
> 
> As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.
> 
> The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them."



Excellent explanation .......


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## gubbi

pmukherjee said:


> I picked this up somewhere, as of now and in the foreseeable future, there is nothing to beat the F-22.
> 
> "The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.
> 
> The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.
> 
> If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.
> 
> *However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat.* This is what the F-22 was designed for.
> 
> You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.
> 
> The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.
> 
> In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.
> 
> *There is no doubt in my mind *the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.
> 
> I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. *A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.*
> 
> For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the *Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel*. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.
> 
> *As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35* in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.
> 
> The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them."



There is no doubt about the superiority of the F-22 today. However This article is definitely biased against dog-fights and Sukhois. (Probably a plea for more funding for F-22's?)
For one, most air-air kills are in close combat rather than BVR engagements as the author claims (AFAIK, BVR accounts for only 2-3 kills till date, correct me if I am wrong). The stats speak for themselves.
Secondly, even if Su's manage to avoid F-22s BVR missiles and do manage to get in close combat, the range of the Sukhoi is still considerable to give the pilot ample amount of time to engage the Raptor before running out of fuel, provided the raptor doesnt 'drill his brains out' in the first few seconds.
And like our Pakistani friends always say, its the man in the machine that matters, not the machine  (a jab and pun intended a la comparison of JF-17 and Su-30 MKI)
And lastly, no one knows what PAK-FA looks like or what its capabilities are going to be. So how does the author seem to know about its capabilities to compare it to F-35? Either he's Putin's stooge or a good 'ol plain idiot. Second time you read the article, you find it to be more biased and amateurish.


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## pmukherjee

gubbi said:


> There is no doubt about the superiority of the F-22 today. However This article is definitely biased against dog-fights and Sukhois. (Probably a plea for more funding for F-22's?)
> For one, most air-air kills are in close combat rather than BVR engagements as the author claims (AFAIK, BVR accounts for only 2-3 kills till date, correct me if I am wrong). The stats speak for themselves.
> Secondly, even if Su's manage to avoid F-22s BVR missiles and do manage to get in close combat, the range of the Sukhoi is still considerable to give the pilot ample amount of time to engage the Raptor before running out of fuel, provided the raptor doesnt 'drill his brains out' in the first few seconds.
> And like our Pakistani friends always say, its the man in the machine that matters, not the machine  (a jab and pun intended a la comparison of JF-17 and Su-30 MKI)
> And lastly, no one knows what PAK-FA looks like or what its capabilities are going to be. So how does the author seem to know about its capabilities to compare it to F-35? Either he's Putin's stooge or a good 'ol plain idiot. Second time you read the article, you find it to be more biased and amateurish.



1. Where does the point of additional funding for F-22s arise when it is already under production and the total production figures have been frozen at 187 or thereabouts, kind courtesy defense secy Gates. 
2. Now I am not taking sides here, merely stating facts. F-22 has stealth characteristics far superior to that seen or envisaged in any other fighter. It needs to carry a transponder just to be visible to friendly ATCs for God's sake! Couple the incredible stealth attributes with super cruise and BVR missiles and you have a very heady cocktail indeed. Thank God they are not making too many more of them. If you cant see it, how do you bloody fight it?
3. link Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft: Encyclopedia II - Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft - DERA study


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## gubbi

pmukherjee said:


> 1. Where does the point of additional funding for F-22s arise when it is already under production and the total production figures have been frozen at 187 or thereabouts, kind courtesy defense secy Gates.
> 2. Now I am not taking sides here, merely stating facts. F-22 has stealth characteristics far superior to that seen or envisaged in any other fighter. It needs to carry a transponder just to be visible to friendly ATCs for God's sake! Couple the incredible stealth attributes with super cruise and BVR missiles and you have a very heady cocktail indeed. Thank God they are not making too many more of them. If you cant see it, how do you bloody fight it?
> 3. link Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft: Encyclopedia II - Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft - DERA study



The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however its NOT invisible! Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.


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## pmukherjee

gubbi said:


> The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
> You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however its NOT invisible! Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
> Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.



You have a point there Gubbi. Tell me, if it goes to Japan today, what stops it from going to Saudi Arabia tomorrow? If that happens, first thing we hear is that Pak pilots stationed there are gaining experience on it and then may be a few F-22s are loaned to Pak in a conflict scenario (which one hopes never happens). Assuming that by such time we have the PAK-FA (HAL), can it handle the F-22s? Yes, the SU-30MKIs need to reduce their RCS drastically. Even F-15s have a far lower RCS. Basically, I think the Russians have been caught sleeping on this stealth thing. While the Americans have been investing heavily on stealth technology for decades with the SR-71, F-117 and B-2s, the Russians are belatedly trying to play catch up as they have been concentrating on greater dogfight capabilities. That is where the PAK-FA lags behind. Without genuine stealth the PAK-FA can never call itself fifth generation.


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## satishkumarcsc

The father of stealth is called Piotr Umfskin. This guy is a Russian.


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## gambit

gubbi said:


> The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
> You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however *its NOT invisible!* Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
> Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.


The US does not claim that the F-22 and its brethens 'invisible' to radar. The word 'invisible' is often used by the media. The proper term is 'low observable'. In radar engineering, 1ghz and below and nothing is really 'invisible', not even the F-22 and its brethens. But the problem with these freqs are very poor target resolutions in terms of speed and distance, making these freqs vulnerable to ECM. For aircrafts, by the time they can detect the F-22 on their radars, in those exercises, the fights are rigged in favor of the 'non-stealth' aircrafts to give them some experience in dealing with LO opponents. The reality is that whenever the exercise has no such rules, there was a greater than 10-1 kill ratio in favor of the F-22.

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## IAF

but wat against our new FGFA

F/A-22R Vs Su-30MKI

Kill % is 10 Vs 4.5

But Expect With Su-35 PAK FA/FGFA the same they are Sheath Breakers


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## IAF

pmukherjee said:


> I picked this up somewhere, as of now and in the foreseeable future, there is nothing to beat the F-22.
> 
> "The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.
> 
> The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.
> 
> If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.
> 
> However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.
> 
> You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.
> 
> The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.
> 
> In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.
> 
> I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.
> 
> For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.
> 
> As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.
> 
> The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them."



Su-35 also have the Sheath, sheath breaker and BVR technology, even Su-30MKI is capable of BVR upto 350-400km...

in current mode F-15/16/18 both are gud but the other hand MiG-29, Su-30, Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale...?


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## leonblack08

IAF said:


> but wat against our new FGFA
> 
> *F/A-22R Vs Su-30MKI*
> 
> *Kill % is 10 Vs 4.5*
> 
> But Expect With Su-35 PAK FA/FGFA the same they are Sheath Breakers



Are you talking about cope India 04?then get your facts right.It was against F-15 not F-22.
Since FGFA is still in development process there is no point comparing it with Raptors.


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## IAF

leonblack08 said:


> Are you talking about cope India 04?then get your facts right.It was against F-15 not F-22.
> Since FGFA is still in development process there is no point comparing it with Raptors.



Against F-15, Su-30MKI had More Kill with AEWS Raders from Israel. and the BVR capability. it can detect 64 object, track 32, target 8, engage 2 in BVR Mode.... 

this is the replay for the F-15 pilot who spoke nonsense...

link : Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22

Comments and Analysis

Despite Col. Fornof having observed Red Flag up close, his comments should not be treated as the gospel truth - there is a possibility that he is playing to the gallery. His comments carry weight since he is an operational pilot with the USAF but he certainly cannot cover the entire exercise and has no inside knowledge of the way IAF fought. Nevertheless, even though his comments appear to be negative about the IAF to the uninformed listener; overall he has actually praised the IAF and its performance.

*

The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links  neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.
*

Su-30MKI is equipped with its own data link which can share target information across multiple fighters. IAF is presently inducting A-50EI Phalcon AEW&C aircraft. Red Flag and other exercises before it have seen IAF working very closely with the AWACS crew of the other air force. Operational Data Link (ODL) will be provided to all fighters in the IAF over the coming years.
*

The IFF system used by IAF is not compatible with NATO standard, hence the need for verbal communication with the controller.
*

The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.
*

The high mix of highly experienced pilots in Ex Cope India, if true, cannot be consistent across all sqns that were involved in the exercise. During Cope India, the 24 Sqn operating Su-30K/MK was first Flanker unit in the IAF and only one of two Su-30 units in the entire IAF at that time. To find a concentration of senior pilots in these squadrons will not be unexpected given that these units will be forging doctrines and tactics and building up a pool of pilots. Per article on Cope India here; Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.. Moreover, the mix of experience needs to be examined for the USAF squadrons as well. The aggressor squadron at Nellis and the F-22 attracts the best in the USA.
*

MiG-21 Bison does not have an Israeli radar as noted in the lecture. The type is equipped with a Phazotron Kopyo (spear) unit. The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously.
*

Su-30MKI is equipped with Saturn AL-31FP engines, not Turmansky as mentioned in the lecture
*

Soviet era aircraft were designed to operate from poorly prepared airfields. For example; MiG-29 closes its intakes during taxi and take-off to avoid ingestion of FOD thrown up by the front wheels. In this state the engines are supplied air thru louvres located on upper surface of the leading edge. This design feature is at the cost of significant internal fuel capacity and hence has been eliminated in newer MiG-29 versions starting with the K/KUB variants. Flanker come with lighter anti-FOD grills in the intakes as well as wheel fenders that catch FOD. IAF has precautions built into their SOPs  which may be overlooked in case of war or any such exigency. Since the deployment was far away from home base in the USA, with no spares support and related infrastructure it was well worth to observe strict adherence to SOPs instead to being stuck with a grounded aircraft!
*

This is not the first time the MiG-21 Bison has been praised for successes during dissimilar air combat training (DACT)  even during previous USAF exercise and internal IAF exercises pilots are known to have scored kills against more advanced adversaries. The small size (lower visual signature) and inherently small radar cross section coupled with modern avionics, radar, effective jammers, precision guided munitions and missiles (R-73, R-77) make Bison one of the best fighters in IAF after Su-30 and Mirage-2000. IAFs has had good experience with small jets such as Gnat which earned the reputation of Sabre Slayer in the 1965 war with Pakistan. The under-development LCA Tejas promises to carry on this legacy when it replaces the Bison.

Under the glare of the worlds attention the IAF pilots, crew and their aircraft have clearly acquitted themselves well in Ex Red Flag 2008. This exercise was the most complex environment IAF worked in, even more than the Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska where Jaguar IS fighters had participated. The challenges faced were because of the operational environment, training rules and airspace restriction where the IAF is not expected to fight a war in any case. Shortcomings must have come up  but then that is exactly why IAF is training for.

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## IAF

This is Like a Wheel of Success.

F-22/35 === Su-PAK FA/FGFA


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## duhastmish

*Russia and India have identified the characteristics of fifth generation fighter*






Russia and India have identified the tactical-technical characteristics of prospective fifth-generation fighter, which will be developed jointly by the two countries. Currently, the parties shall consult on the allocation of work. As reported by RIA Novosti, said Director of the "Rosoboronexport" Alexander Mikheyev in an interview with the publication of "arms" to be published next week.

Mikheyev said that the work comes within the framework of an intergovernmental protocol, which stipulates the basic principles of relationships, including sharing of work, mode of financing and delivery dates. He also commented on the possible competition in the market of arms from the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-35: "Considering that the world market for combat aircraft is limited, of course, we see F-35 as a competitor and a very serious competitor."

Nevertheless, according to Mikheeva, the United States, and Russia is the traditional market segments, and the rivalry between the two countries in the dramatic form is not expressed. Russian forward fighter, as the head of "Rosoboronexport", will not assign the F-35 on the tactical and technical characteristics, with substantially lower cost.

Recall that the development of forward-looking set of front-line aviation aircraft (PAK FA) is a number of domestic design bureau in the late 1980's. He must replace the MiG-29 and Su-27.The first flight of the machine, tentatively to be held in 2009.

Russia also signed an agreement with India that the two countries will jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft.The Russian Air Force plans to adopt a single option, and the Indian Air Force looked at the double.

Source: news agency "Lenta.Ru"
Published: 30.07.2009, 15:33

http://74.125.153.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/07/30/fighter/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLenta.Ru%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&rurl=translate.google.co.in&usg=ALkJrhhF9jFkDE79QJpg4CwvHHq08kaYJQ


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

5th generation aircraft...when indians are going to realize their first squadron...


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## duhastmish

it should be out in public by this month around 18 august. but will be under trial for 3-4 years and hopefully in 2013-14 years india's first squadron of single seater and then 2015-2016 twin seater indian MKIsed


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## Haanzo

duhastmish said:


> it should be out in public by this month around 18 august. but will be under trial for 3-4 years and hopefully in 2013-14 years india's first squadron of single seater and then 2015-2016 twin seater indian MKIsed



err dont you think the first sqdrn will be a dream before 20 18-19


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## Developereo

duhastmish said:


> June 15, 2009, (Sawf News) - The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being *developed by Russia with some Indian financing* is unlikely to take to the air by the end of this year as projected earlier, reports Flight Magazine.



There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'. 

The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development. That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.

The cash-strapped Russians will surely sell PAK-FA to PLAAF and the Chinese will transfer the tech into their J-XX.

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## humblehobbes

quite possible.. A new but very plausible scenario.. Indians would feel the sucker punch then and there, for relying on Russians, who have been dilly dallying with the Aircraft carrier


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## beckham

Developereo said:


> There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'.
> The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development. That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.
> *The cash-strapped Russians will surely sell PAK-FA to PLAAF and the Chinese will transfer the tech into their J-XX*.


Actually it is confirmed earlier, China had refused to partner Russia's PAK-fa programme, because it was pursuing its own J-XX programme.I dont think Chinese are capable of copying a stealth aircraft.They are mostly copying untechnological parts of the aircrafts.(they still depend of others for radar and engines )


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## Haanzo

Developereo said:


> There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'.
> 
> The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development. That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. *The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.*
> 
> The cash-strapped Russians will surely sell PAK-FA to PLAAF and the Chinese will transfer the tech into their J-XX.



if that is what you Think please name one FLYING PROTOTYPE ...LET ALONE AN OPERATIONAL AIRCRAFT OF RUSSIAN ORIGIN USING A COMPOSITE SKIN ON THE AIRCRAFT.....IF YOU CAN PROVIDE THE DETAILS ....


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## holysaturn

Developereo said:


> There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'.
> 
> The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development. That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.
> 
> The cash-strapped Russians will surely sell PAK-FA to PLAAF and the Chinese will transfer the tech into their J-XX.



please read abt the project it is a 50-50 partnership in both finance and r&d.

"We have government contracts for both programmes but the details must be sorted out. However, we have agreed that the financing, design and developement, and sales support will be undertaken on a 50-50 basis," he says.
AERO INDIA: Fifth-generation fighter talks inch forward


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## sancho

duhastmish said:


> it should be out in public by this month around 18 august. but will be under trial for 3-4 years and hopefully in 2013-14 years india's first squadron of single seater and then 2015-2016 twin seater indian MKIsed


The first flight could be this year but there won't be an operational Pak Fa before 2015! Also India won't get a single Pak Fa (single seat version), only FGFAs the double seat version which will be designed after Pak Fa. First FGFA could arrive in 2017/18!


Developereo said:


> There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'.
> 
> *The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development.* That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.


Of course! It was not a co-development from the start, Russia began it years before and we joint later, so the first developments in stealth, engine and radar will be Russian for sure. But should think about the difference of this development and MKI development and you will understand why it's a co-development now!
MKI was in design and all main parts developed from Russia alone. India only took the main Su 30 design and include different Russian (Bars radar, TVC, Canards, OSL 30) and western parts (avionics, EWS), to get a customized version.
This time India will not take only fully developed Russian parts, but is involved in the developments and design too! 
Imo our experience in avionics and radar with some western countries will be the main share. Also HAL has experience with production of Russian engines (RD 33 and AL 31), so they should be involved in further developments. Not to forget that we already build weapons like Astra, Nag/Helenia and main electronics parts of Brahmos, so new weapons will surely have Indian techs too. 
On the design India will clearly fund the whole redesign of FGFA, because Russia is not interested in double seat versions, but for exports to Brazil for example these will be important again.
At the end it should be two fighters that shares the main parts, which were jointly developed. Some more from Russia (because they started these, or are based on older Russian techs), some more from India (because of access to western techs and better electronic and IT field). The fact that both countries will be involved in funding, development and production of parts makes it a 50/50 co-development. 
EF is a similar example! Four nations are involved in funding, development and production of parts and even if the main design and the engine are from UK, the other nations are involved in their developments too and include other parts of the fighter. That makes it a co-development on same shares, just like Pak Fa /FGFA development!


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## Developereo

Haanzo said:


> if that is what you Think please name one FLYING PROTOTYPE ...LET ALONE AN OPERATIONAL AIRCRAFT OF RUSSIAN ORIGIN USING A COMPOSITE SKIN ON THE AIRCRAFT.....IF YOU CAN PROVIDE THE DETAILS ....



Iskander SS-21 / Scarab/Tochka

According to Russian sources, the missile uses special composite materials to reduce the radar signature of the missile (or TEL?) to evade targeting radars employed by enemy surveillance sensors, UAVs and smart weapons


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## Developereo

sancho said:


> Imo our experience in avionics and radar with some western countries will be the main share.



Thanks!

This sounds similar to the China-Pakistan FC-1/JF-17 development.

Both countries chipped in 50-50 moneywise. The Chinese/Russians provided the muscle part of the aircraft, while the Pakistanis/Indians bring in experience with advanced Western brains part of the plane.

In return the Pakistanis/Indians gain more knowledge of aircraft design and development.


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## Haanzo

Developereo said:


> Thanks!
> 
> This sounds similar to the China-Pakistan FC-1/JF-17 development.
> 
> Both countries chipped in 50-50 moneywise. The Chinese/Russians provided the muscle part of the aircraft, while the Pakistanis/Indians bring in experience with advanced Western brains part of the plane.
> 
> In return the Pakistanis/Indians gain more knowledge of aircraft design and development.



please stop comparing jf-17 and fgfa .......your above analysis is totally baseless


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## Developereo

Haanzo said:


> please stop comparing jf-17 and fgfa .......your above analysis is totally baseless



Relax, boss.

I am not comparing the aircraft, just the collaboration model.

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## Trisonics

Developereo said:


> Relax, boss.
> 
> I am not comparing the aircraft, just the collaboration model.


The comparison you are trying to make is itself a generation behind(if you know what I mean)..what we get from this partnership regardless of how much we contribute is a "Great" learning experience for our AF'ce...lets come back to your reasoning when IAF inducts this AC and what " imbalances /balances" it creates when its inducted!!!! till then let have some


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## Haanzo

Developereo said:


> Relax, boss.
> 
> I am not comparing the aircraft, just the collaboration model.



HULLO 

im speaking of the collaboration model itself -do i have to specify that if ive quoted your posts ....hter is nothing even remotely common in the collaboration model EXEPT they are named as a JV


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## Developereo

Haanzo said:


> HULLO
> 
> im speaking of the collaboration model itself -do i have to specify that if ive quoted your posts ....hter is nothing even remotely common in the collaboration model EXEPT they are named as a JV



OK, I was being charitable but, considering that the Indian story changes every few days, I agree the collaboration model is very different.

First the Indians were contributing composite materials knowledge.
Then it was avionics experience.
Tomorrow it will be something different.

It is starting to sound more and more like the Russians have already designed the plane and the Indians are just customers with ToT. The Russians will design a customized pimped version FGFA for IAF.

Now the truth is coming out that the nuclear sub was not fully indigenous but was designed with French help.


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## maverick2009

The picture of the PAK FA looks simply stunning. 

For Me PAK FA is the single most important objective of the IAF. 

The concept of 5TH Generation fighters flying in IAF and owning 50&#37; of the project is too good and coupled with the Arihant will really Help India become a true regional Super power


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## haawk

Developereo said:


> OK, I was being charitable but, considering that the Indian story changes every few days, I agree the collaboration model is very different.
> 
> First the Indians were contributing composite materials knowledge.
> Then it was avionics experience.
> Tomorrow it will be something different.
> 
> It is starting to sound more and more like the Russians have already designed the plane and the Indians are just customers with ToT. The Russians will design a customized pimped version FGFA for IAF.
> 
> Now the truth is coming out that the nuclear sub was not fully indigenous but was designed with French help.




nuke sub with france !!!!! no buddy we got consultation from russia .....

and we contribute both avionics as well as composite tech to fgfa.......

what did pak contribute in jf17? ........just curious


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## Developereo

maverick2009 said:


> The picture of the PAK FA looks simply stunning.
> 
> For Me PAK FA is the single most important objective of the IAF.
> 
> The concept of 5TH Generation fighters flying in IAF and owning 50% of the project is too good and coupled with the Arihant will really Help India become a true regional Super power



Right now the West and Russia fear China more than India.

India is just a pawn for them and they are building it up as a counterweight to China.

The question is how long will this support last? Will the West and Russia start to consider India a real competitor at some point, the same way they do China?

In any case, India is doing the right thing by taking advantage of the situation and copying as much Western/Russian tech as possible.

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## Developereo

haawk said:


> nuke sub with france !!!!! no buddy we got consultation from russia .....
> 
> and we contribute both avionics as well as composite tech to fgfa.......
> 
> what did pak contribute in jf17? ........just curious



Recent UPI report claimed the nuke sub was built with French help. Maybe both Russia and France helped in different areas.

For FGFA, Russia doesn't need help in composite tech. They already have operational aircraft (Iskander) using composite tech. I agree India could provide experience and expertise with Western avionics.

At least PAF has a consistent claim about cooperation in JF-17 -- F16 avionics and experience -- unlike the Indian claims for FGFA cooperation which seem to vary on any given day.

Face it, the Russians had designed a 5gen plane that was about to be mothballed due to lack of funds. They rescued it by getting India to cough up some money and, in exchange, India will get a customized version.


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## sancho

Developereo said:


> Face it, the Russians had designed a 5gen plane that was about to be mothballed due to lack of funds. They rescued it by getting India to cough up some money and, in exchange, India will get a customized version.


You are wrong buddy! As I told you before, Russia only started the development based on some older techs. For example the fighter will have the AL 41 engine, which is based on the AL 31 that the MKI uses. Till now they only got an more improved version for Su 35 (the Saturn S117) with some AL 41 techs, but no fully developed new engine. Same goes for radar, the Bars radar of MKI was later improved to Irbis PESA on Su 35 and will be further improved to Irbis E AESA in Pak FA. The main development of the fighter in nearly all fields is still going on and India is involved in it. 
India will include techs right in the development stage and not only customize it later and the benefit for our AF and industries by getting such latest techs is tremendous!


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## maverick2009

The PAK FA will make India the First ASIAN country with a true 5TH GENERATION fighter. Around 20170-218

Before China and before the likes of Taiwan and Korea who won,t get JSF until post 2020. 

The only danger in winning this race is Japan who may get F22 BEFORE INDIA GETS PAK FA


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## Brahm0s

Friends i want to see PAK-FA carring brahmos II hypersonic missile in future. Just imagine that. Two beast PAK-FA and Hypersonic brahmos II combined together. i would call it 'unmatchable force' in whole world. Cheers.


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## Brahm0s

maverick2009 said:


> The PAK FA will make India the First ASIAN country with a true 5TH GENERATION fighter. Around 20170-218
> 
> Before China and before the likes of Taiwan and Korea who won,t get JSF until post 2020.
> 
> The only danger in winning this race is Japan who may get F22 BEFORE INDIA GETS PAK FA



Friend taiwan would get JSF? i doubt that. i heard that taiwan and china became friends now or near to be called as 'friends'. Why would america let taiwan get JSF. japan will get F-22 or may be JSF in future well before our PAK-FA gets ready. Am alot eager to see PAK-FA flying this year. i just want to know how it look likes. There are alot PAK-FA pics but they all different from each others. Cant say which one is PAK-FA's real design among them.


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## aimarraul

haawk said:


> nuke sub with france !!!!! no buddy we got consultation from russia .....
> 
> and we contribute both avionics as well as composite tech to fgfa.......
> 
> what did pak contribute in jf17? ........just curious



please ! if china was willing to joint the T-50 program, india won't have any chance enjoying the PAK-FA ,russia only love money,the hardest part is not if you can build a 5th generation fighters ,it's the 5th generation engine,india already bought 140 SU-30MKI &#65292;and you are about to increase that number to 250,you got any answer about T0T of AL-31FP,the answer will still be "no" even you increase to "450"

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Brahm0s said:


> Friend taiwan would get JSF? i doubt that. i heard that taiwan and china became friends now or near to be called as 'friends'. Why would america let taiwan get JSF. japan will get F-22 or may be JSF in future well before our PAK-FA gets ready. Am alot eager to see PAK-FA flying this year. i just want to know how it look likes. There are alot PAK-FA pics but they all different from each others. Cant say which one is PAK-FA's real design among them.



You heard correctly.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

aimarraul said:


> please ! if china was willing to joint the T-50 program, india won't have any chance enjoying the PAK-FA ,russia only love money,the hardest part is not if you can build a 5th generation fighters ,it's the 5th generation engine,india already bought 140 SU-30MKI &#65292;and you are about to increase that number to 250,you got any answer about T0T of AL-31FP,the answer will still be "no" even you increase to "450"



Correct. Designing the body of the plane & RAM is not that difficult, as compared to a 5th generation engine. That's why in the Russian videos they focused on their recent advances in engine technology.


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## duhastmish

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Correct. Designing the body of the plane & RAM is not that difficult, as compared to a 5th generation engine. That's why in the Russian videos they focused on their recent advances in engine technology.



I doubt you can even compare chinese junkbox to a indo-russian fighter.

most important aspect for a fifht gen fighter is the avinoics. even more so than frame itself. 



> The first flight could be this year but there won't be an operational Pak Fa before 2015! Also India won't get a single Pak Fa (single seat version), only FGFAs the double seat version which will be designed after Pak Fa. First FGFA could arrive in 2017/18!



dude - it was said by the indian side a few week back - that we will go for a single seater t-50 in the start then - go for fgfa. the numbers will added just as a statment of power. please go through previous posts and google. cheers.

------


aimarraul said:


> please ! if china was willing to joint the T-50 program, india won't have any chance enjoying the PAK-FA ,russia only love money,the hardest part is not if you can build a 5th generation fighters ,it's the 5th generation engine,india already bought 140 SU-30MKI &#65292;and you are about to increase that number to 250,you got any answer about T0T of AL-31FP,the answer will still be "no" even you increase to "450"


ohh you smart arse - if that was the case why didnt china got the techonlogy demostration from russia and why didnt they got the fifth gen fighter ??? than that levi - j-10 ??????
i wouldnot hate to say this but you are - big mouth - and those kidn end up having fly in their mouth in end .

dont talk b.s here about mk1 and al-31 we all know what kind of radar you have in your super fighters . and kind of avionics you got in your junk box .

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## Haanzo

Brahm0s said:


> Friends i want to see PAK-FA carring brahmos II hypersonic missile in future. Just imagine that. Two beast PAK-FA and Hypersonic brahmos II combined together. i would call it 'unmatchable force' in whole world. Cheers.



one word *IMPOSSIBLE*...there would be no space to fit a cruise missile in the weapons bay ...and if its carriying on the pylons ,whats the use of bieng 5 gen plane


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## aimarraul

duhastmish said:


> I doubt you can even compare chinese junkbox to a indo-russian fighter.
> 
> most important aspect for a fifht gen fighter is the avinoics. even more so than frame itself.
> 
> 
> ohh you smart arse - if that was the case why didnt china got the techonlogy demostration from russia and why didnt they got the fifth gen fighter ??? than that levi - j-10 ??????
> i wouldnot hate to say this but you are - big mouth - and those kidn end up having fly in their mouth in end .
> 
> dont talk b.s here about mk1 and al-31 we all know what kind of radar you have in your super fighters . and kind of avionics you got in your junk box .




talking about this?as i know something like this is being widely used in J-11B JH-7......where is the J-10 from if we have to buy russia's avionics.......

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## BSF

aimarraul said:


> talking about this?as i know something like this is being widely used in J-11B JH-7......where is the J-10 from if we have to buy russia's avionics.......




klj-7 radar, I thought this was "Made in China"
What does this have to do with PAF FA? 

The rest is in Chinese so I could not read it.


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## gambit

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Correct. *Designing the body of the plane & RAM is not that difficult,* as compared to a 5th generation engine. That's why in the Russian videos they focused on their recent advances in engine technology.


Really? Then why neither Russia nor China managed to field even a demonstrator equivalent of the F-117? The truth is that the F-117's method of radar evasion, angled faceting, is outdated and the much more complex curvatures of the B-2, F-22 and F-35 are the standards. Do not make nonsensical statements like these.

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## aimarraul

you don't have to convince people how good are F-117 B-2 F-22 and F-35.nobody denigrate their hp,and we will know when they actually fly in Russia or China's sky&#65292;he just said it's easier compare to the engine,f119 took 20 years to mass production,it will be much longer if we count f110 and f101,what about other parts.....


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## Screaming Skull

*PAK-FA prototypes to fly in Nov/Dec 09​*



> Speaking on closer plans, the senior officer said *Russias fifth-generation fighter jet will see its maiden flight later this year, in November, or probably in December. So far three prototypes of the PAK FA have been built for land tests, and a machine for aerial tests is on its way.* PAK FA is a multipurpose super maneuverable stealth aircraft designed by Sukhoi.
> 
> Air Forces to deter space-based strikes on Russia - RT


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## Brahm0s

Screaming Skull said:


> *PAK-FA prototypes to fly in Nov/Dec 09​*



Gr8 news. Am desperate to see how pak-fa looks like. December whole world will know it. i hope video or atleast pics will be shown of pak-fa taking off in sky by december.


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## applesauce

Brahm0s said:


> Gr8 news. Am desperate to see how pak-fa looks like. December whole world will know it. i hope video or atleast pics will be shown of pak-fa taking off in sky by december.



i too would very much like to see a vid or pics of the prototype when it flys


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## SinoIndusFriendship

applesauce said:


> i too would very much like to see a vid or pics of the prototype when it flys



Russia probably won't be able to honor their word that a prototype will fly before 2010, so don't keep your hopes up. But I do believe they made substantial progress. They might leak a few photos to keep Bharat's appetite salivating and to keep the Gorskov deal alive.

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## Moscow

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Russia probably won't be able to honor their word that a prototype will fly before 2010, so don't keep your hopes up. But I do believe they made substantial progress. They might leak a few photos to keep Bharat's appetite salivating and to keep the Gorskov deal alive.



do you have any idea about the pakfa program just mere make up stories isnt it,
3 prototypes are ready in irkuts siberia plant with ground testing beeing done the plan was to showcase it in maks 2009 in august but the ground testing is to take further time ,
designs have been locked sukhoi dosent want to release the pictures they can release the design pictures right now but the plan is to keep it away from the public eye because sukhoi is going ahed with the su-35 bm they want to win the brazil tender and not reveal pakfa till su-35bm final trials are over

meanwhile sukhoi have offered to project internal weapons bay on its flanker mki block 2 they want to cash in on other projects before they release pakfa, also designs are finalized for the naval version of pakfa

so please make some research before you make stupid comments


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## SinoIndusFriendship

moscow said:


> do you have any idea about the pakfa program just mere make up stories isnt it,
> 3 prototypes are ready in irkuts siberia plant with ground testing beeing done the plan was to showcase it in maks 2009 in august but the ground testing is to take further time ,
> designs have been locked sukhoi dosent want to release the pictures they can release the design pictures right now but the plan is to keep it away from the public eye because sukhoi is going ahed with the su-35 bm they want to win the brazil tender and not reveal pakfa till su-35bm final trials are over
> 
> meanwhile sukhoi have offered to project internal weapons bay on its flanker mki block 2 they want to cash in on other projects before they release pakfa, also designs are finalized for the naval version of pakfa
> 
> so please make some research before you make stupid comments



You just supported what I just said. Did I say the PAK-FA wasn't beyond design stages? NO. Did I say ground tests might not be ready by year end? YES. Doesn't Moscow play these "games" with India? YES.

Now where was my mistake?  Take it easy, these political games are played all the time in the big leagues. Lots of broken promises, freezing of payments, delays, etc. I've been part of the "Industry" and see this all the time.

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## Brahm0s

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Russia probably won't be able to honor their word that a prototype will fly before 2010, so don't keep your hopes up. But I do believe they made substantial progress. They might leak a few photos to keep Bharat's appetite salivating and to keep the Gorskov deal alive.



Hi friend. i didn't know you are chief of project PAK-FA. Glad to hear from you sir. Would you like to tell me how your J-XX doing? Engine ready? Or waiting for our PAK-FA get ready? Lol. Anyway back to topic. Russia desperate for 5th generation jet fighter (more than india). So for a moment even if i believe u that russia might delay it than its russia who would be dissapointed. Aint india. Our PAK-FA would be double seater. So that would take time to get build as india clever. India wanted russia to make us part of 'Design' of the aircraft. Now by going for double seater (modification needed in design) india ensured it would gain knowlege of design. in short 'india dont care when pak-fa fly. We care we should gain knowledge of stealth design. Anyway pak-fa will fly this december. Whether u like it or not friend. Cheers.


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## Brahm0s

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> You just supported what I just said. Did I say the PAK-FA wasn't beyond design stages? NO. Did I say ground tests might not be ready by year end? YES. Doesn't Moscow play these "games" with India? YES.
> 
> Now where was my mistake?  Take it easy, these political games are played all the time in the big leagues. Lots of broken promises, freezing of payments, delays, etc. I've been part of the "Industry" and see this all the time.



Friend lets presume pak-fa would get ready by 2020 (for your happiness). What does that mean? J-XX would get ready before? Or by 2030??? even jet fighter JSF F-35 wont be ready by 2015 or so. Do you think china would produce J-XX before indo-russia? So friend you should pray PAK-FA gets ready fast. That would benefit your china (if russia agree to help china) lol.


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## applesauce

Brahm0s said:


> Friend lets presume pak-fa would get ready by 2020 (for your happiness). What does that mean? J-XX would get ready before? Or by 2030??? even jet fighter JSF F-35 wont be ready by 2015 or so. Do you think china would produce J-XX before indo-russia? So friend you should pray PAK-FA gets ready fast. That would benefit your china (if russia agree to help china) lol.



dont know any any of the dates for the aircraft but...about the russian help.

why wouldn't russia help if needed? please explain to me this


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## pmukherjee

Brahm0s said:


> Friend lets presume pak-fa would get ready by 2020 (for your happiness). What does that mean? J-XX would get ready before? Or by 2030??? even jet fighter JSF F-35 wont be ready by 2015 or so. Do you think china would produce J-XX before indo-russia? So friend you should pray PAK-FA gets ready fast. That would benefit your china (if russia agree to help china) lol.



Does it really matter who makes it faster? We are not at war here. And even if there is a war in Asia by 2020, (which I doubt) none of these fighters are going to make any difference as there are going to be too few of them available to make any difference.


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## sancho

moscow said:


> meanwhile sukhoi have offered to project internal weapons bay on its flanker mki block 2 they want to cash in on other projects before they release pakfa, also designs are finalized for the naval version of pakfa
> 
> so please make some research before you make stupid comments


Mosow, can you provide more infos, or reliable news of the MKI block 2 upgrades and of course more infos about Pak FA capabilities?


pmukherjee said:


> Does it really matter who makes it faster? We are not at war here. And even if there is a war in Asia by 2020, (which I doubt) none of these fighters are going to make any difference as there are going to be too few of them available to make any difference.


May I disagree here! 
Even these fighters won't be fully invisble for latest radars, they will enter enemy airspace without much problems and can take out fighters, or ground targets like no actual fighter could do. There were simulations of F22 against numbers of actual US fighters and specially in BVR combats it will have an edge, even in small numbers next gen fighters will make a difference!


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## pmukherjee

sancho said:


> May I disagree here!
> Even these fighters won't be fully invisble for latest radars, they will enter enemy airspace without much problems and can take out fighters, or ground targets like no actual fighter could do. There were simulations of F22 against numbers of actual US fighters and specially in BVR combats it will have an edge, even in small numbers next gen fighters will make a difference!



Hi Sancho, My contention was not that stealth fighters dont/wont make a difference to the outcome of a conflict. Rather, since only a very few, if any are likely to be available by 2020, they are not likely to really make an impact in case of war. Accurate figures for PAK-FA/FGFA or the Chinese fighter are not available. So we have to go by the yardstick of the F-22. Which is the following (wiki):-
1. "The first production F-22 was delivered to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, on 14 January 2003 and "Dedicated Initial Operational Test and Evaluation" commenced on 27 October 2003."
2. "As of 2008, F-22 Raptors are being procured at the rate of 20 per year."
Going on the premise that we get to see the first FGFA in 2017, I dont see us holding more than at best one squadron of the aircraft by 2020. In all probability, it will be more likely 10-15 aircraft. China is expected to perform along similar lines. Now I really dont see such a small handfull of fighters making a big dent. More likely, these frightfully expensive aircraft will be kept away from the war zone to avoid the possibility of losing some at the hands of pilots with limited exposure to the machines. All this is mere conjecture really. You may be entirely right in your appreciation.


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## sancho

pmukherjee said:


> Going on the premise that we get to see the first FGFA in 2017, I dont see us holding more than at best one squadron of the aircraft by 2020. In all probability, it will be more likely 10-15 aircraft. China is expected to perform along similar lines. Now I really dont see such a small handfull of fighters making a big dent. More likely, these frightfully expensive aircraft will be kept away from the war zone to avoid the possibility of losing some at the hands of pilots with limited exposure to the machines. All this is mere conjecture really. You may be entirely right in your appreciation.


That's exactly what I meant, even such a small number can make a real difference!


> During Exercise Northern Edge 2006 in Alaska in early June, the F-22 proved its mettle against as many as 40 "enemy aircraft" during simulated battles. *The Raptor achieved a 108-to-zero kill ratio at that exercise.* But the capabilities of the F-22 go beyond what it can do. It is also able to help other aircraft do better.
> 
> *"When you are outnumbered on the battlefield -- the F-22 helps the F-18 and the F-15s increase their performance," General Lewis said. "It gives them more situational awareness, and allows them to get their expenditures because you can't kill all these airplanes with just the weapons aboard the F-22. It takes the F-15's and F-18's weapons.* It was very successful, (in its) ability to get everybody to integrate."



Air-Attack.com News :: USAF Details F-22's Capabilities, Multiyear Purchase Contract

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## Brahm0s

applesauce said:


> dont know any any of the dates for the aircraft but...about the russian help.
> 
> why wouldn't russia help if needed? please explain to me this



Friend why would russia help? Explain me. Will russia help china so it can effect russia's military export? Or russia would help china so later on china can use it against russia? (like it did before). Russia aint a country who would hand over vital information including latest powerful engine to any country. Let alone china. If it was simple engine and not vital information than yes russia might have given but hey russia is russia. They are competetor of china in military export. i doubt russia would drope huge stone on its own foot lol.

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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

*NIIP's AESA radar for PAK FA to be unveiled at MAKS 2009*

Guys I am forwarding the weblink which in russian langauge ...

English translation :

Long arm Fifth Generation 
Research Institute of Instrumentation Tihomirova AFAR created for advanced multi-fighters 
2009-08-14 / Viktor Litovkin 


Creators AFAR (from left to right): Director-General Yuriy White NIIP and chief designer Vladimir and Anatoly Zagorodny Sinani. 
Photo provided by NIIP named Tihomirova 
Visitors Aerospace Salon in Zhukovsky, which opens on 18 August, and professionals who visit the MAKS-2009, is awaiting a sensation. Meet with her, they will be able to stand on behalf of Tikhomirov Instrument Research Institute in the pavilion &#8470; F-1, which would take United Aircraft Corporation. Immediately between exposure «Sukhoi» MiG and, near the training rooms of our famous aircraft. And highlight of the exhibition NIIP, which, of course, be sure to write the world's press, will sample the active nature phased array (AFAR) X-band, designed for advanced multifunctional fighter. 

Obviously SENSATION

Why the emergence of the AFAR sensation? The answer to aviation experts - the obvious. Yet no country, no company, including the famous Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, which makes similar products for F-22A, F-16E / F Block 60 or F/A18E/F, on any show is not shown «live »AFAR. And in the Farnborough and Le Bourget, and Berlin, and in Dubai - anywhere they are the largest international airline lounges, stands for the most promoted foreign companies have always shown only models and models of this antenna. But never a valid sample. For many obvious reasons. Including fear of competitors.

NIIP named Tihomirova decided to act up. Why? Not only in order to emphasize the high level of Russian design ideas, which, thank God, still preserved in some local defense enterprises, scientific research institutes and design bureaus, but also to show the following. With the unification of the elements of its design and the selected design solutions based on a sample to be presented at the MAKS-2009, believed the institute may be established AFAR to modernize various radar systems. Including the families of fighters Su-27 and Su-30, as well as for their brethren under the brand name MiG, for ground-based systems for military and civilian purposes. 

Specialists NIIP in a conversation with the author of these lines of stress that they have submitted in Zhukovskiy AFAR done that, fundamentally, to the domestic element base nanogeterostruktur based on GaAs technology and advanced antenna systems to electronically controlled beam (AU EUL). Tihomirovtsy more than 40 years of dealing with electronic scanning. The first in the world aircraft phased array (AFD), which they developed, have been installed in the system of management of arms «Barrier» on distant fighter-interceptor MiG-31, adopting a more in 1981.

But, of course, presented a sample far outpaced its progenitor on energy efficiency and the ability to manage a broad form of the beam, as well as the regimes of work. Before meeting with specialists NIIP I read in one of the special editions that AFAR - the basis of intelligence of current and future fighter aircraft, which allows to solve a complex variety of combat missions, the effective implementation of the various regimes «air-to-air» and «air-to-face». And can provide significant advantages on such indicators as the radiated power, noise ratio, scanning sector range, etc. 

As explained to me to specialists, the quality BRLS with AFAR contribute not only to detect multiple air targets at maximum range (previously seen - earlier defeated), but that is particularly difficult to constantly maintain these goals, regardless of their maneuvers, maintenance up-down of our fighter aircraft, right-left or turn to various on-course, roll and pitch. And if the radar can continuously keep the objective «of slots sight», then, I think it is doomed.

-	If you talk about AFAR very simple - tell me the general director of NIIP Yuriy White - we have to understand that the traditional Locator - separate antenna, receiver, transmitter and receiver in AFAR with the transmitter and the antenna splits into smaller parts, into modules. And many of these modules represent AFAR. That is, each small yacheechka and their thousands, and contains a transmitter and receiver. In antenna «merge» All of the high-frequency radar. In addition, with AFAR radar capabilities to provide high reliability. Including the application of microwave radiation. Previously, if, for example, came out of the transmitter, the aircraft became blind. And it struck one or two cells, even a dozen, while the other thousands of works. 

ON-BOARD INTELLIGENCE 

BRLS with AFAR - this is the basis of «intelligence» of modern fighter aircraft, which ensures compliance with all terms of the numerous and diverse challenges facing its pilot and weapons system. It is designed to help the pilot to solve many problems of air combat - from the conquest of the air and anti-missiles to defeat the enemy of small ground and surface targets. This assumes a dramatic increase in the level of automation control system arming (SUV). Maximum release of the pilot of the management functions with on-board systems, focusing his attention on solving tactical problems. This is important for multifunctional combat aircraft, especially for single 

- The promising fighter - said Yury Bely - is no longer just a locator in the usual sense, and an integrated electronic system, which includes radars in several wavelengths, as well as identification systems, EW and other necessary equipment. And all this is tied into a single ideology, a common vision, will provide, as is now fashionable to formulate, «Battle synergistic effect». 

Do tihomirovskoy AFAR there is one more feature, which is incidentally mentioned in the beginning of this material - the basic components to it - modules - are available on the automated line capable of mass production. Professionals know that to make any «glandule» in a single copy, including the international exhibition is called, the knee - not a problem. The Soviet Union was famous for its exhibition products, astonished the audience at the world fairs, but found them in stores or on the streets of Russian cities, it was impossible. And to ensure that this does not happen with AFAR, the state has provided a tremendous technological rearmament of enterprises of the Moscow - fryazinskogo «Istok», which now makes two-transmitter modules, of which, as a cell in the hive, and is going to AFAR. Build two production lines. One - the crystal output, which makes chips. Other - assembly, where these chips are collected in the chips, then they are integrated into the antenna elements. This specialized microchips ultrahigh frequency (UHF). Monolithic integrated circuits microwave - Microwave IIAs. World standard of specialized components. The more of these elements, the more powerful radar. A number of modules in the antenna can reach up to several thousand. 

NIIP director Yuriy White stressed that this is the most automated production in which almost excluded the human factor. The equipment is mainly foreign, including Japanese. The fact that our country is not made. And in general this technology, which today is used in creating our AFAR, formerly in Russia was not. 

Yuri Ivanovich did not tell me how much they produce locators. 

- Everything is done under specific orders - he explained. - But there is power «Istok», there is a power NIIP, we are also engaged in production, is the power of our serial Ryazan instrument factory, which in the long run will collect BRLS with AFAR. We will now pass it the necessary documentation and technology. There, under the program builds a new production building with new equipment ... 

«In principle we are prepared to 50 aircraft a year to equip their radar», - has assured the White Jury. 

Head NIIP noted that the term AFAR they are going to produce not only for the locators promising fighter, but also for other types of weapons. Steerable phased array antenna technology to produce grids should be unified. They can be used in all types of armed forces. Including in the perspective of anti-aircraft missile complexes large range, created in the Corporation aircraft «Almaz-Antey» (here the same principle: «first saw - then won»), as well as MANPADS medium-range type «Book». Maximum uniformity of time and give the maximum effect on the value. The more locators, so they are cheaper for the consumer. Americans than to win? They ran a similar technology in civil proceedings - in a system of communication and navigation system for the prevention of collisions on the roads and railways ... 

- Of course, our locator to «Zhiguli» no place - looks Yury - import cars - well, they are closed to us by copyright. But metropoezd - please. At locomotives - as well. Trying to interest railroaders such prospects improve traffic safety and the passengers. While on the way to the many artificial bureaucratic hurdles. 

The future belongs YOUNG 

I could not, of course, do not ask about who was involved in creating a new AFAR, and the relevance of this system is that young people who, as I told the general director of NIIP (see the «NSS» of 25 April 2008), has to work in the institute. 

- These guys, - said the White - have a direct bearing on the creation AFAR. I would say, decisive. The young radio engineer and designers, we have gained 4-5 years ago from the MAI, Baumanki, Ryazan Radioengineering, Taganrog University, technologists from Togliatti, a Ivanovskiy technology (we have extensive cooperation, trying to recruit the best, of course), job, gain experience in passive steerable phased array lattices and actively. In general, in our institute about 400 people who are below 30 years. A direct challenge AFAR were thirty to forty-man of this age. And when it was necessary to assemble the dish by a certain date, they even slept in the booth, as in wartime, working around the clock. Not got. Most importantly, because this new technology, new technique - it is their environment, and youth is very cool all this develops. 

And actually, I was the fellow journalists in the institute a year ago and then said: wherever you come in - all the young faces in the model stands, the assembly, the configuration of modules ... It gives hope that the institute has a future. But the director is still not satisfied - not even the youth, «old» much more. Director of courage - in a crisis of our times - embarked on a construction of a hostel for young professionals. However, outraged by the fact that our «permission» System Construction terribly zabyurokrachena (the building can be constructed for the year to achieve a building permit - and little of two years). And with free financial problems. That would be where the state needs help! And then talk to all levels of the critical situation with the personnel shortage OPK and tangible things not seen. It is hoped that niipovtsy to cope with this challenge, how they coped so far with all its technical problem

Yes, I almost forgot. At the air show MAKS-2009, at the stand of Tikhomirov Instrument Research Institute, will be shown more and AFAR L-band. Intended for installation in socks reject wing fighter. She also performed on the modern hybrid-integrated home technologies and provides electronic beam scanning in a wide sector of angles in azimuth and a broad band of frequencies. This locator as AFAR X-band, gathered in the NIIP, which was created for this unique laboratory-testing facilities, including those equipped with the latest modern technology anechoic chamber.

Link : Íà ÌÀÊÑå ïîêàæóò ñåêðåòíóþ ÐËÑ


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## aimarraul




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## Trisonics

aimarraul said:


>



I think the Indian version will have 2 pilots.


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## pmukherjee

For all those keenly following the development of the PAK-FA/FGFA, here is good news. The AESA radar for 5th generation PAK FA fighter
is fully functional and is being displayed at the MAKS -2009 air show in Zhukovskiy (Moscow district), which started today, August 18. 
Sorry, I am quoting from a blog as it is the only place I found the Russian translation. For those who read Russian, here is the original link&#205;&#224; &#204;&#192;&#202;&#209;&#229; &#239;&#238;&#234;&#224;&#230;&#243;&#242; &#241;&#229;&#234;&#240;&#229;&#242;&#237;&#243;&#254; &#208;&#203;&#209; 

This is what it looks like:-



"Tikhomirov's NIIP AESA radar for PAK FA 
The correspondent of Russian 'Independent Military Review' Viktor Litovkin has published last week a new article about Russian 'Tikhomirov's NIIP' radar design house, which is the developer of AESA radar for 5th generation PAK FA fighter (Russo-Indian Future Fifth Generation Fighter - FGFA program). Here I publish my brief translaton of this article in my blog with some my comments at the end:

"The visitors of MAKS -2009 air show in Zhukovskiy (Moscow district), which is starting at August 18, will be surprised. They will see the full-scale AESA X-band radar, developed for the Russian prospective multifunctional fighters (PAK FA). 

*OBVIOUS SENSATION *
Why the appearance of this AESA is sensation? It's obvious. Yet other country publicly demonstrated a working AESA radars. Only the dummy models and the antenna mock-ups were demonstrated in Farnborough, Le Bourget, Berlin and Dubai. It never was acting radar for many reasons, including competitors fear. 

Why 'Tikhomirov's NIIP' decided to act more openly? It's not only for emphasizing the high level of Russian last generation fighter, but also for showing Russian potential in creating AESAs for different modernization options. It's for Su-27 , Su-30, and MiG fighters, just as for other different ground-based systems of military and civil purposes. 

The NIIP specialists emphasize that demonstrated AESA is manufactured on the domestic elements based on advanced Galium-Arsenide nano-size heterostructure technologies. The NIIP designers work on electronic scanning arrays (ESA) more than 40 years. Their first world ESA radar for fighter-interceptors was installed on the board of serial MiG-31 aircraft in 1981. 

However, the represented model is far ahead of its ancestor in terms of detection capabilities , energy effectiveness, and modes of work . If comparing to passive ESA the advance of active ESA radars is lying in more effective realization of different &#8220;air-to-air&#8221; and &#8220;air-surface&#8221; modes, in its power, signal-noise factor, range of detection and so forth. 

AESA advance contributes not only to the simultaneously detection of several aerial targets at maximum range (see-first-kill-first capability), but also, which is especially difficult, in targets tracking, disregarding of their maneuvers. If radar can continuously track the target, it is doomed. 

AESA radars are more reliable than PESA because in case of one transmitting element failure the radar follows to work.............."

To read the full text Defunct Humanity: Tikhomirov's NIIP AESA radar for PAK FA


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## beckham

Izdeliye 760 missile 



*The Novator K-100-1 (Izdeliye 172S-1) missile, developed for the PAK FA (and shown here on a Su-35 model), is designed to destroy targets flying at altitude from 3 meters to 30 km, and at distances out to 400 km*


* new-generation PAK FA fighter &#8212; being developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau &#8212; will have not only feature a new airframe, radar, avionics and engines. It also will be equipped with new-generation weapons that are being evolved in two parallel paths: the continued modernization of existing missiles with stepped improvement of their capabilities; and the design of next-generation weapons.
GosMKB Vympel, Russia's leading air-to-air missile design bureau, is busy evolving a full spectrum of missiles for the PAK FA, ranging from short-range weapons to long-range variants.In 2010, Vympel expects to complete its development of the short-range Izdeliye 760 missile &#8212; which is a significantly modernized version of the R-73 weapon, outfitted with an inertial flight control system and course correction receiver, improved rocket engine and with new multi-mode infrared seeker.Izdeliye 760 is expected to be a close counterpart to the Western-built ASRAAM and Sidewinder AIM-9X missiles. 


years later, the new-generation K-MD short range missile (also to be designated the Izdeliye 300) is to be operational. When compared to Izdeliye 760, the new missile will have longer range and will be capable of being launched from any direction; it will be also more resistant to jamming. The K-MD will be fitted with a new imaging infrared seeker enabling identification of target according to memorized images. The seeker's lock-on range will be two times greater than the seeker for the Izdeliye 760 missile. A new adaptive warhead will be introduced, and the missile's control will be performed with aerodynamic surfaces, as well as a thrust-vector engine nozzle. 

most modern medium-range air-to-air missile is the R-77 (Izdeliye 170) and its export derivative RVV-AE (Izdeliye 190). A phased modernization of this weapon, designated the K-77-1 (Izdeliye 170-1), is now being tested. In addition, the K-77M (Izdeliye 180) missile is currently under development as a second step in the R-77's modernization. The most visible change in the Izdeliye 180's external appearance compared to the R-77/RVV-AE is replacement of its latticework fins by more common flat aerodynamic control planes. This reduces aerodynamic drag and cuts down on the radar cross-section. The missile will be fitted with a modernized active radar seeker and new double pulse solid-propellant engine. Its maximum range will be 2-3.5 times more than the Izdeliye 170 (R-77) missile, depending on the launch altitude. The Izdeliye 180 is expected to be better than the AMRAAM AIM-120C7 missile, and equal to its successor versions, with a service-ready date targeted for 2010.
A future medium-range air-to-air missile as a follow-on to the Izdeliye 180 also is in development, but no additional information has yet to be released about this weapon.

Russia is the only country developing ultra-long range air-to-air missiles able of reach targets at distances of up to 400 km. Two such missiles are competing to be a basic weapon on the PAK FA fighter: the Izdeliye 172 (K-100) from Novator, and the Izdeliye 810 from Vympel. 

All air-to-air weapons on the PAK FA (including the largest Izdeliye 172 missile) are designed to be carried in the aircraft's internal weapons bay. To allow these weapons to be deployed from the internal bay, Vympel is designing two types of ejection release units capable of carrying 300 kg and 700 kg loads

PAK FA also is expected to carry its basic complement of air-to-ground weapons internally. These include the modernized Kh-58Ush long-range anti-radiation missile, the newly-developed Kh-36 short-range anti-radiation missile, the new short-range electro-optical Kh-38 missile, as well as the UAB-250 and KAB-500M guided bombs. Heavier weapon types will be carried on the aircraft's external pylons.*link

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## Moscow

novator and vympel are competing well to grab the pakfa share
something god will come out also

also a whole range of products for the pakfa are in advanced statges like the development of launching pods for internal weapons bay
some short range missiles on display at maks 2009
new seeker and guidance system 

pakfa will be the best fighter russia has ever built the interesting part is all the major firms associated iwth the project have emplayees in the early 30s ,signs thats a new generatin with new ideas will be developing the pakfa


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## Gabbar

Russia's 5th-Gen fighter jet engine facing problems​
Zhukovsky, Moscow Region: Russia's fifth-generation fighter planes, being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau in collaboration with India's Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd (HAL), is set to start flight trials in November, the Russian air force chief said Thursday. *He also revealed that the fighters' engine development programme had run into some problems. *
Speaking at the MAKS air show outside Moscow, Col Gen Alexander Zelin said: "For the time being, the aircraft will use Saturn engines. There are problems, I admit, but research is continuing."

The T-50 Advanced Frontline Aviation Complex (PAK-FA), going by the Russian designation of the 5th Gen fighter, is intended to replace the Russian air force's fourth-generation fighters, namely, the Su-27 Flanker and the MiG-29 Fulcrum. 

The PAK-FA will also be inducted into the Indian Air Force as a two-seater version, compared to the Russian air force's single-seat version, and it is the Russian version that is due to commence trials later in the year. 

As the original Sukhoi design was not intended to incorporate a two-seater, the design bureau, along with HAL, is now working on strengthening the aircraft's structure so that it can carry increased weight.

*Earlier, in May, the Russian air force commander had indicated that three T-50 airframes had already been built, with at least one of these, very likely, a static fatigue test rig. Now, the Itar-Tass news agency quotes Gen Zelin as saying that the second prototype fighter jet was undergoing ''field trials.'' It is not clear what processes it is referring to when it says ''field trials,'' but very likely it is referring to land tests.*
*All three prototypes have been built for land tests and a new one for aerial flights is on its way.*

_Gen Zelin has reiterated time and again that the 5th-generation fighter jet will see its maiden flight later this year,_ ''in November, or probably in December.'' This is a subtle shift from the September-October period bandied about earlier.

Deputy prime minister, Sergei Ivanov, had laid down a fiat in January this year that come what may the fifth-generation fighter jets must start trials this year and be in use by the air force by 2015. 

T-50 PAK-FA
The aircraft is designed to feature a long combat radius, supersonic cruise speed, low radar cross section, super-manoeuvrability, and the capability for short takeoffs and landings. 

It is expected to have a normal take-off weight of 20 tons, which is smack in between the average normal take-off weight of the two adversary, 5th Gen American fighters - the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons). 

The new fighter is expected to have a traditional wing form, though Russian experts say that the experience gathered as a result of Berkut's test flights will be taken in consideration when designing the fighter. The Berkut is the only aircraft in fighter history to have a Swept Forward Wing (SFW). 
It will be equipped with two AL-41F engines being developed by the Saturn scientific and industrial enterprise, an active phased array radar system developed by the Fazatron-NIIR Corporation and high-precision weapons. 

Interestingly, the new fighter is being sought to be developed from concept to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. 

It is likely that the problems being referred to by Gen Zelin in the development of the engine may be more finance-related than technical. The Russian government had promised to allocate $1.5 billion for the PAK-FA through 2010. It is not known if it has kept to its promise.

Completion of the AL-41F engine programme, according to Rosaviakosmos officials was dependent on cash flows of between $600-800 million. These figures are from tleast two years back, even before prices of resource materials and services skyrocketed around the world before the global crash. 

It is not evident if the Russian government has stuck to its promise to make adequate resources available. 

Russian sources have said an improved version of the AL-31F will be used on the prototypes, though these engines have been designed for aircraft heavier than the PAK-FA.


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

The V. Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design finally got  literally  to take the wraps off its latest radar on the third day of the MAKS 2009 air show.

The Russian institute, often referred to as simply NIIP  for understandable reasons  showed the design of a prototype active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on its stand at the event. The system is most likely destined for Russias fifth-generation fighter, known as PAK FA

For most of the first three days the antenna and housing was covered by a canvas. The cover may have been removed briefly on the first day during the visit of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, but otherwise remained out of view. NIIP was  apparently  still awaiting final approval to show the AESA publicly for the first couple of days of the event.

The radar antenna shows a slight ellipse, likely indicative of the nose shape of the Sukhoi T-50 prototype for the PAK FA. Flight testing of the radar will begin in 2010.

The first T-50 airframe, a static fatigue test item, is already in Moscow, and a maiden flight of the design is now expected in November.


Picture Credit A. Komarov/AW&ST

Link : Ares Homepage


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## Gabbar

Sorry for going off topic but..........


> AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer


?

We had Sambha before and now jailer???

*Are going to see whole cast of Sholay?, it would be kind of cool though..!*

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## ironman




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## gubbi

Exclusive new pics of PAK-FA: These were smuggled out by an enterprising employee of Sukhoi plant where the aircraft is undergoing static tests!!

Its official .... NOT!...Finally for all the PAK-FA fanboys, quench your thirst, the day of reckoning has finally arrived!! 
Lo, behold the much awaited, beloved PAK-FA.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1660/10380006.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8223/38403127.jpg

The sleek design and its formidable capabilities, not to mention the plasma stealth generator that you see behind the cockpit (the small black dome on the side) and the latest AESA radar, the bird shall strike fear in the very hearts of our enemies!!!

N-joi!


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## sms

^^ Nice try buddy... it's really stealth plane made wood....

I admit it's funny


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Gabbar said:


> Sorry for going off topic but..........?
> 
> We had Sambha before and now jailer???
> 
> *Are going to see whole cast of Sholay?, it would be kind of cool though..!*[/QUOG
> Bro Gabbar! Where is my basanti! Gabbar kameena Mein tera khob pejaonga! Gabbar bhagvan key liy mere basantiloso


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## Moscow

gubbi said:


> Exclusive new pics of PAK-FA: These were smuggled out by an enterprising employee of Sukhoi plant where the aircraft is undergoing static tests!!
> 
> Its official .... NOT!...Finally for all the PAK-FA fanboys, quench your thirst, the day of reckoning has finally arrived!!
> Lo, behold the much awaited, beloved PAK-FA.
> 
> http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1660/10380006.jpg
> 
> http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8223/38403127.jpg
> 
> The sleek design and its formidable capabilities, not to mention the plasma stealth generator that you see behind the cockpit (the small black dome on the side) and the latest AESA radar, the bird shall strike fear in the very hearts of our enemies!!!
> 
> N-joi!




HA HA HA lol LOL , loooooooooooooooll

MATE ITS NOT THE PAKFA ITS THE SPACE AIRCRAFT BY RUSSIA 

contact me if you need details 
also view this youtube video


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## Moscow

check the maks 2009 thread here for more pics and detail of the space aircraft

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/32193-maks-2009-russia-pictures.html


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## pmukherjee

A.V. said:


> HA HA HA lol LOL , loooooooooooooooll
> 
> MATE ITS NOT THE PAKFA ITS THE SPACE AIRCRAFT BY RUSSIA



AV are you talking of the Buran space orbiter? I heard that program was dead, though attempts were being made to revive it. Even if the Russian space shuttle programme has been revived, it is not likely that a shuttle would be in a state that it could be launched in the near future. Can you give your views please.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The Buran program chronology:*

1988 Nov. 15: 06:00:02 Moscow Time: The Energia super booster carrying an unmanned Buran reusable shuttle blasted off from Baikonur. 206 minutes or two orbits later, the Buran automatically landed at the Yubileiniy airfield at Site 251 in Baikonur.

1989 May 13: The Antonov-225 Mriya super-heavy transport aircraft conducted its first flight carrying Buran orbiter.

1992: Funding for Energia-Buran program stopped.

2002 May 12: The flight version of the Buran orbiter is destroyed in the roof collapse at Site 112 in Baikonur.

*REVIVAL?*
In 2001, at the MAKS air and space show in Moscow, the Flight Research Institute, LII, based in Zhukovskiy, displayed a full-scale mockup of the winged HFL-VK experimental vehicle designed for test flights at hypersonic speeds. Launched by a Rockot booster, a scramjet-powered unmanned craft would reach a speed of 8-14 Mach (1 Mach is equal to the speed of sound) and fly at the an altitude of up to 100 kilometers -- faster and higher then most experimental vehicles in development around the world at the time. The HFL-VK is 8 meters long, has a wing span of 3.6 meters and a weight of 2,200 kilograms.

After launch from Plesetsk onboard the Rockot, the HFL-VK plane is expected to land with a parachute in the Russian Far East.

The program is partially financed by the Russian Aviation and Space Agency, Rosaviacosmos, however, according to LII representatives, the funds were insufficient for active development.

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## gubbi

A.V. said:


> HA HA HA lol LOL , loooooooooooooooll
> 
> MATE ITS NOT THE PAKFA ITS THE SPACE AIRCRAFT BY RUSSIA



Of course I know thats not the PAK-FA. The thing is that we have been waiting for so long to just get a glimpse of this aircraft. Everybody "assumed" that atleast the airframe would be displayed at MAKS2009. But alas, that was not the case to be.
I also happen to follow a particular forum and there too members are enthusiastically waiting for PAK-FA. So this whole posting of pics was a tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor.
Nice to know people did have a sense of humor. The first time I saw that, I laughed myself outta my arse! It was hilarious!
Oh BTW the MAKS2009 pics are awesome. Can you also add some captions to those pics so that we know exactly whats going on?
Thanks.

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## DaRk WaVe

gubbi said:


> Exclusive new pics of PAK-FA: These were smuggled out by an enterprising employee of Sukhoi plant where the aircraft is undergoing static tests!!
> 
> Its official .... NOT!...Finally for all the PAK-FA fanboys, quench your thirst, the day of reckoning has finally arrived!!
> Lo, behold the much awaited, beloved PAK-FA.
> 
> http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1660/10380006.jpg
> 
> http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8223/38403127.jpg
> 
> The sleek design and its formidable capabilities, not to mention the plasma stealth generator that you see behind the cockpit (the small black dome on the side) and the latest AESA radar, the bird shall strike fear in the very hearts of our enemies!!!
> 
> N-joi!



xaxaxaxa  so cool


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## marcos98

Lapel pins handed out at the just concluded MAKS-2009 air show at Zhukovsky had this aft cross-section of the Sukhoi T-50, the Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA, by Indian designation). RussiaToday quotes Sukhoi official as saying that the lapel pin is a cheap Chinese fake ("wait till they reverse engineer the PAK-FA, my friend!"), though other Russian officials apparently said this was an authentic depiction of the prototype and wind tunnel model. Since we've constantly been treated only to fantasy impressions and imaginary depictions, here's something that's out from Sukhoi itself.


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## sancho

IAF tests it's new fighter

1111.jpg (image)


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## gubbi

Here are a few new pics of PAK-FA I got from another forum (militaryphotos.net). In all likelyhood, the aircraft may resemble the designs shown below. Its a possibility. And oh, these pics, originally are from Paralay.

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## marcos98

gubbi said:


> Here are a few new pics of PAK-FA I got from another forum (militaryphotos.net). In all likelyhood, the aircraft may resemble the designs shown below. Its a possibility. And oh, these pics, originally are from Paralay.



 man something tells me this ones it.
matches the closest to all descriptions or speculation there was to it.


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## Gabbar

marcos98 said:


> man something tells me this ones it.
> matches the closest to all descriptions or speculation there was to it.



But Indian version would be 2 seater.


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## GLOBAL HAWK

THANX Mr GUBBI

there is a lot of similarity b/w these 2
Do u guys notice the similarity from the rear view??????

thank u


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## sidharth

*Russia Air Force admits problems in 5th-generation jet engines*

ZHUKOVSKY, August 20 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Air Force chief acknowledged on Thursday faults in engines for a fifth-generation fighter jet currently being developed.

The Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) plane is set to replace the Air Force's fourth-generation fighters, namely, the Su-27 Flanker and the MiG-29 Fulcrum.

Speaking at the MAKS air show outside Moscow, Alexander Zelin said: "For the time being the aircraft will use Saturn engines. There are problems, I admit, but research is continuing."

LINK - Air-Attack.com News :: Russia Air Force admits problems in 5th-generation jet engines


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## sidharth

*Indian participation in FGFA to be formalized*

India will supply composite-material parts of the airframe, avionics and software packages for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

August 19, 2009, (Sawf News) - India will supply composite-material parts of the airframe, avionics and software packages for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Speaking to the press at MAKS 2009 on Wednesday, August 20, 2009, HAL Chairman V. Balakrishnan said a formal pact on the development of FGFA will be signed later this year.

The FGFA is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

Russia and India will simultaneously develop two versions of the combat aircraft - a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India's air superiority policy, and a single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.

Sukhoi has already started construction of three prototypes at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KNAAPO) in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fighter could begin in the winter of 2009, and the aircraft may go into production in Russian and India by 2015.

The fighter, estimated to be in the 30t category, is expected to feature super maneuverability, super cruise and stealth with an internal weapon bay. It is also expected to feature an advanced variant of the Tikhomirov Instrument Engineering Research Institute developed N035 Irbis-E radar that equips the Su-35BM.

The FGFA will be inducted into IAF by 2017.

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## Gabbar

*^^^ Link please !!!*


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## sidharth

Gabbar here is your link :- Indian participation in FGFA to be formalized


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## hardcore

can any one tell me wat's the importance of two seater plane
&
why does india prefer them
Wat's the advantage


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## hardcore

can any one tell me wat's the importance of two seater plane
&
why does india prefer them
Wat's the advantage


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

*More pictures of NIIP's AESA and Test Pilot who would fly the first sortie of the PAK-FA Prototype*


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Link : Chindits: The pilot who would fly the first sortie of the PAK-FA prototype, end of this year


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## gogbot

hardcore said:


> can any one tell me wat's the importance of two seater plane
> &
> why does india prefer them
> Wat's the advantage



Well it increases long range mission effectiveness.

But mainly it allows for India to have first hand experience in making the plane rather that the Russians just making it for us.

That's what India worried about, the Russians just take Indian cash and then stone wall our design teams from a full development role. and just give us a plane they made.

But since we requested a variant of the plane, Indian teams will need to take a primary role in its design. and fully participate in he development stages of the fgfa. some thing they cant do on the PAK-fa , as its development was alredy done by the time India joined the Russians.

HAL will no doubt use experience and skills gained on this project. Into Indigenous projects. Like the MCA which will be developed simultaneously.

As a result of all this India circumvented about 8 years in the R&D required for stealth air craft. and is also getting stealth aircraft 10 years before it should.


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## praveen

hardcore said:


> can any one tell me wat's the importance of two seater plane
> &
> why does india prefer them
> Wat's the advantage



Multitasking ,single seater means information overload for the pilot .Two seater one may do the navigation the other person may do other
things


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## beckham

India's first stealth fighter to fly in 4 months 




In less than four months from now, India's first stealth fighter will fly for the first time. It is called the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft or FGFA being developed in Russia by Sukhoi.

The FGFA is designed to have a top speed of approximately Mach 2, or twice the speed of sound.

It has the ability to supercruise or operate at speeds beyond the speed of sound without engaging systems such as afterburners which consume huge amounts of fuel.

The aircraft will be equipped with an electronically scanned array radar whose beams are electronically steered to detect targets with maximum accuracy.

India, which has partnered Russia in the development of multi-role fighter Sukhoi 30 MKI, is a key player in the FGFA project and is expected to pay a sizeable chunk of the $3 billion needed to fund development of the fighter.

"The prototype will take off this year," said Alexei Fedorov, president of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation.

Several of the technologies being developed for the stealth fighter have evolved from those used in the Sukhoi 30 MKI.

Considered the most maneuverable fighter in the world, the Sukhoi 30 MKI uses thrust vectored engines which deflect the exhaust from its engines to extreme angles which enable the jet to pull off violent maneuvers like a flat spin where the jet literally spins around on its axis.

As new technological advancements are being developed for the stealth fighter, they will also find their way into the Sukhoi 30.


India's first stealth fighter to fly in 4 months

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## warlock21

Arun tevar said:


> ^^hard to digest,within 4 months?



I hope this is going to be our chrismas Gift this year....but if prototype ready to fly in 4 months... then Production will not tke more than 1 or 2 years...and if this holds true then I don't think we require large number of MRCAs..


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## beckham

Arun tevar said:


> ^^hard to digest,within 4 months?



lets Hope so... 



but we still don't have a confirmed image....


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## BLACK_COBRA

Russo-Indian 5-Gen stealth fighter to take to the skies in four months news 

31 August 2009 



New Delhi: India's first fifth generation stealth fighter aircraft will take to the skies in four month's time, a senior Indian defence ministry official said Sunday.

"The aircraft, which can attain a top speed of Mach 2 or twice the speed of sound without consumption of huge amounts of aviation fuel, is being developed by Sukhoi in Russia under a $3 billion deal," the official said, on condition of anonymity. 

"It is to be equipped with high-end radars which can detect targets with maximum accuracy," he said. 

Many advanced technologies that will be used in the stealth fighter have been adapted from the multi-role fighter aircraft, Sukhoi-30MKI.

Earlier, at the MAKS 2009 air show, held at Zhukovsky, Moscow Region, this month, Sukhoi director general, Mikhail Pogosyan, told reporters that the 5-Gen fighter would make its maiden flight by the year-end.

"We will spare no effort for this to happen this year, and I believe we have every reason to say this work is proceeding according to plan," he said.

domain-b.com : Russo-Indian 5-Gen stealth fighter to take to the skies in four months


----------



## Born In The USA

Fifth generation fighter image intrigues MAKS 2009







An image of the Russian fifth-generation jet fighter T-50  now under development  has popped up at MAKS 2009 International Air Show as an ornament on lapel pins.
Yahoo StumbleUpon Google Live Technorati
Scoop del.icio.us Digg Sphinn Furl Reddit

Until now nothing has been officially conveyed about the new jet fighters looks.

Read more

The image on the pins suggests that it is going to be a monoplane with widely spaced engines and two outward-canted fins, says Vedomosti daily, adding that it seems the jet fighter has been designed using stealth technology.

A source in the Sukhoi construction bureau has dismissed the label pins as cheap Chinese fakes, but another source in the Russian aviation industry says the images they carry have a strong resemblance to the T-50 jet fighter.

The fifth-generation jet fighter project was started in Russia in the 90s and is currently being developed by the Sukhoi construction bureau and the scientific development and production center Saturn.

It was earlier said that the T-50 flight tests could start as soon as November this year.

That has been confirmed at MAKS 2009 by the Chief Commander of the Russian Air Force, Aleksandr Zelin, who said that three T-50s are being assembled at a plant in Russias Far East.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin who attended the MAKS 2009 Aviation & Space Salon on Tuesday said that the production of the fifth-generation jet fighter is one of the priorities of the Russian aircraft industry, and ordered the supply of necessary resources to assist the fighters development.

Fifth generation fighter image intrigues MAKS 2009 - RT


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## sancho

> The Commander said that the AL-41 turbofan, originally meant to power both these futuristic combat aircraft, will not be available in time for powering the prototypes of these two aircraft. Instead, an uprated AL-31FP turbofan developed by NPO Saturn will be used for the PAK-FA&#8217;s initial flight-tests, due to get underway by early next year. However, when it comes to FGFA, which is to be co-developed by HAL, Sukhoi Experimental Aircraft Design Bureau and United Aircraft Corp, *the uprated AL-31FP will be the definitive powerplant.*



FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

So FGFA will only get the same Saturn S117 that now is in use of Su35 BM and also will be used in the upg MKIs, but not the real AL 41 engine that Pak FA will get. Of course that is an advantage for IAF in case of commonality and costs, but what advantages will the real AL 41 engine could have over the S117?

Here are some infos from the official Saturn site:

&#205;&#207;&#206; "&#209;&#192;&#210;&#211;&#208;&#205;"



> The 117&#1057; engine is a deep modernization of the AL-31F engine (generation 4++)
> 
> *The 117&#1057; is an aircraft turbofan engine with a variable thrust nozzle of generation 4++* developed by NPO Saturn to the Sukhoi Design Bureau order for the export Su-35 fighter.
> 
> The 117&#1057; engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.
> 
> *The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16&#37; compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.*
> 
> Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.
> 
> The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. *A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.*
> 
> As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117&#1057; engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117&#1057; engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.
> 
> On 19 February 2008, a new 117&#1057;-powered Su-35 aircraft successfully performed its first test flight.



So is this a good decision, or will there be a big difference to Pak Fa?

Another interesting point of the article is this:



> Contrary to the intense pre-show hype about *Russia lifting the curtains off its long-awaited 22.5-tonne PAK-FA* fifth-generation multi-role combat aircraft and the first definitive MiG-35UBK tandem-seat prototype (from United Aircraft Corp&#8217;s Nizhny Novgorod-based Sokol Aircraft Factory), no such event eventually took place. Instead, what was showcased were a smaller number of new-generation precision-guided munitions (PGM), and avionics for the PAK-FA and *its 16.5-tonne variant, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)*.



FGFA will be 6t lighter than Pak Fa, althhough it will be a double seat version?


----------



## sudhir007

Ilya Fedorov: The engine of the fifth generation integrates the best of what is today in Russia's engine industry- 


In created in Russia Joint new engine corporation special role of the Scientific-Production Association "Saturn".The company now sells a number of major engine program, on which depends the whole future of Russia's aviation. What kind of program to "Interfax-AVN said the new head of Saturn Ilya Fedorov. 


The Interfax-AVN, September 3, 2009 

- Ilya, will the "Saturn" to develop the engine of the fifth generation? 

- No one questioned the participation of our company in this program, because all that we have today on the fifth generation fighter aircraft has been reached, as we know, the engine that made the Saturn. 

- Do you mean the engine 117S, which are equipped with a multifunctional fighters Su-35 and which, according to experts, is largely consistent with the requirements of the engine of the fifth generation? 

It was created as a result of deep modernization of the engine AL-31F.But if we're talking about an engine for future aviation system frontline aircraft (PAK FA), it must be a completely new engine that nobody, including Saturn, alone can not do. Similar developments were carried out with the broad cooperation. 

Incidentally, the domestic engine building since the Soviet Union has traditionally been the distribution of roles between the design bureau, which specialized in the development of various engine components. I am sure that this is what will be developed and the engine of the fifth generation. 

Who will act as an integrator in this project will determine the customer - Air Force Russia. But those developments that have at our company, allow a high probability to assume that "Saturn" will remain the lead organization for the development of fifth-generation engine, as defined previously. 

- What other component and engine company will be included in co-operatives to develop a power plant for the PAK FA? 

- I think, in dealing with such large-scale task will involve all the component and engine design bureau, non-integrated new engine corporation.It is known that the best laboratory facilities for fine-tuning of engine components than SNTK behalf Kuznetsova, found nowhere else in the world. Although, of course, it requires modernization. Leading to gas generators has always been the Perm KB. As part of the rotating nozzle best solutions offered by Klimov. we talk about the so-called hot engine parts, there is undoubtedly a leader "Saturn". In the cold part is of interest of use in the Moscow Salyut. 

Engine of the fifth generation integrates the best of what is today in Russia's engine building. 

- Is there a clear understanding of what this engine will be different from the power plants of the fourth generation? 

- Firstly, I want to say that some technical difficulties in creating an engine of the fifth generation, we do not see. His creation - the question time and money. 

The engine for the PAK FA will be different from now produced aircraft engines less weight and more traction, but still very serious actions to reduce visibility. This is the foundation. 

Here we do not discover America, much has been implemented in engines that are installed on the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22 and F-35.Since we are on the path to which we have already passed our foreign colleagues, try to avoid the problems they faced when developing these engines. 

- They say that the most important feature of the engine is the fifth generation supersonic cruising. 

- I must say, our engine, I mean the 117S, is already providing such a regime.The main task for the engine of the fifth generation - to provide quality higher performance for fuel consumption and thrust characteristics, as well as the thermal signature. 

- At the MAKS-2009 was signed a contract to supply Russia's Air Force 48 Su-35 with engines 117S. Will this order loading of military production "Saturn" before the engine will be the fifth generation? 

- Of course, we are very glad that Russia's Air Force finally began to buy modern aircraft, moreover, equipped with our engines. But I should note that downloading so many engines or for "Saturn" or for the Ufa Engine Industrial Association is not decisive.She does a lot of money, although, of course, support any part of production, employment, production of military engines. 

- By the way, how do you assess the prospects for advancing the Su-35 for export? Passed a information about that to this car show serious interest in many foreign customers, notably China. 

- We do not sell airplanes, our business - the engine.But sure, the Su-35 will be in demand not only Russia's Air Force, but also foreign customers. And if they contracted the aircraft, the supply of engines, we will provide. 

- Can the engine 117S apply not only to the Su-35, but on other machines? 

- Of course it can. First, the planes that use engine AL-31F.As well as foreign cars.It's no secret that our Chinese partners are developing aircraft with engines like the AL-31F. 

But again this is not for us to decide where to sell our engines. There is a special state intermediary in the person of Rosoboronexport. We only participate in the negotiations in terms of technology, providing consulting services. 

- And what about the execution of the contract to build India's new aviation engine AL-55? 

The engine is created, it flies the plane HJT-36. Of course, there are certain issues of technical nature, faced by virtually all producers of aircraft engines, but they can be solved.We, together with UMPO, our partner in this project, now working to increase engine life. 

For example, AL-55 Saturn revealed as soon as possible with a sheet, in a relatively short time, using the latest technology, to create a new engine. 

The challenge now is to provide customization and mass production of the new engine. Hope we would get. 

- Expressed interest in whether the engine AL-55 Russia's aircraft manufacturers? 

- This engine can be installed on the MiG-AT, but the fact is that Russia's Air Force as a major educational and military aircraft have chosen, as is known, Yak-130, which uses a slightly different engine. 

However, if the customer, the problems with the delivery of the engine will not. Engine of such dimension as the AL-55 now there is not only in Russia but also worldwide. 

- Whether to continue the "Saturn" works on the program creation engine Burlak intended for remotorizatsii military transport aircraft IL-76 family? 

- Burlak - the engine is really interesting, especially as it is developed in a relatively small money. But, unfortunately, we do not see a market for this engine.The fact that Park Il-76 tankers and Il-78 is reduced. Our military customers have sufficient number of spare engines for these aircraft, and proposals for the installation of IL-76 engines Burlak of them has yet been received. 

In addition, as we know, there is the decision to establish on the basis of IL-76 new variant of the Ilyushin Il-76MF aircraft engine PS-90A. And here is the corporate policy, beyond which we will not leave. 

Nevertheless, work on the program Burlak maintained, they are not curtailed, but a lot of money for the project until firm orders the company to spend will not. 

- And what dividends you expect from your main project in the field of civil aviation engine - SaM146 engine for Russia's new regional jet Sukhoi Superjet 100? 

- Design and manufacture of such an engine as SaM146 - a costly thing, big business in it yet no one had done that, and run a lot of money on this project, we are not waiting. value is different: we are very close to Western technology, learned how to work with them.No design bureau, no engine manufacturing company in Russia, except Saturn, this experience does not. 

We had a fundamental restructuring of the company under the production of experimental engines - today we are up to ten items. And most importantly, that people who are working on a program SaM146 can and other engine-enterprises through corporate universities JDC train their colleagues on how to design and produce engines by Western standards, where most other canons of reliability and other characteristics. 

Our specialists have been trained in France, Germany, Japan, is well mastered the most modern Western equipment.Unfortunately, the domestic machine tool industry is in decline and, frankly, its just not there. Therefore we have to use Western equipment.And this - programming, digital production, etc. As a result, Saturn has come to an entirely new production. 

- "Saturn" will ensure timely supply of engines for the Superjet? 

- We have a schedule, which determined that the certification of the engine should be completed in November. Let's proceed from that. 

Today it is definitely possible to say that the engine failed.It flies well, confirms all the declared characteristics and noise, and fuel efficiency. No technical problems there.The main task now - as soon as possible to certify and deploy a full-scale production. 

- Does the "Saturn" for the necessary financial resources? 

Promised by the Government of 5,2 billion rubles, which will be included in the charter capital, will come later. State provided us loans through Vneshtorgbank. We have completely bought all the necessary equipment for the next year, in preparation of production capacities, which will be made parts of the engine SaM146. 

- "Saturn", as is known, except for aircraft engines, is developing a gas turbine units for marine equipment and engines for cruise missiles.How are things going here? 

- Sea theme, we plan to engage in the future. We expect that soon will arrive in Rybinsk Navy Commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, to see our capabilities and to understand what has been done.After his visit, we will set your volume orders and deliveries. 

I would like to note that this is - dual engines. They may also apply to the civil courts. 

As for rocket engines and engines for unmanned aerial vehicles, then this theme in "Saturn" also remains. Previously, these engines were made at the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich". Several years ago, their serial production was mastered at the "Saturn".No problems with their production there. Of course, such episodes, which were earlier, when several thousand were produced by the engines a year, today there.But even if it is carried on 200 - 250 pieces - is also good. 

- What are the prospects for "Saturn" on the roar of gas pumping units and power plants established on the basis of gas turbine engines? 

- This is the most promising topics from a business standpoint.Here we see the basic earnings, basic earnings, which will guide the development of new engines, the development of the enterprise. 

Great attention to this direction in the domestic engine-paid executives OPK Oboronprom and GC Rostekhnologii, which provides all possible assistance and support. 

For the engine is very important to have large volumes.No volumes - no engine, but here everything will be. Creating energy turbine units - a very promising business.In addition to electricity, it is also a secondary heat, which, through exhaust-heat boilers can be used to heat homes and industrial buildings. 

Modern gas turbines - a very cost-effective and far more profitable than many other settings. At JDC has a number of pilot projects with a number of regions that we do not wish to disclose.This will be done later, but believe me, their implementation will bring a lot of money. Including for "Saturn". 

Our subsidiary company "Saturn - Gas turbines" is defined by the general contractor for the construction of power facilities JDC turnkey-based gas turbine units 


- What do you see the role and place of Saturn in the United corporations new engine? 

- "Saturn" - JDC principal place of business - with the strongest design bureau and promising for developing the plant, which is now rebuilt, modernized. As a result, it will be new production. 

In our view, the "Saturn" within the JDC is one of the best prospects. The company is very diversified. It developed and produced a wide range of different gas turbine engines.That - and the rockets, and aircraft engines for military and civil aviation and maritime theme, and gas turbine capacity to 145 megawatts. In "Saturn" is a very good test base, which no one else. 

Industrial policy "Saturn" in this sense simply perfect.For such enterprises as "Saturn" - the future.
AVIA.RU: ????? ????????:


----------



## sudhir007

detail of L BAND AESA RADAR

Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter vs Russia's New Airborne Counter-Stealth Radars

Reactions: Like Like:
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## GLOBAL HAWK

good work Mr Sudhir007

after seeing your post i just couldn't say thanx and leave

so


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## Tejas-MkII

sudhir007 said:


> detail of L BAND AESA RADAR
> 
> Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array
> 
> F-35 Joint Strike Fighter vs Russia's New Airborne Counter-Stealth Radars



After upgradation of MKI with these smart skin MKI will be a flying beast....


----------



## duhastmish

*The armed forces of Russia will purchase the fifth generation fighter in 2015*
September 19, AVIA.RU - Armed forces of Russia will purchase the fifth generation fighter in 2015, reports Lenta.ru with reference to the Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin.
Defense will buy planes PAK FA (also known as T-50) after it is executed a contract to supply 48 Su-35 (generation 4 + +).How many fifth-generation fighter will be equipped with Russia's Air Force, Popovkin not specified. The new fighter will be needed for combat operations in modern conditions of combat aircraft, the deputy minister explained. "Who first saw, and who can afford weapons that would get, will win" - he said.


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## booo

Ilya Fedorov: The engine of the fifth generation integrates the best of what is today in Russia's engine industry-


In created in Russia Joint new engine corporation special role of the Scientific-Production Association "Saturn".The company now sells a number of major engine program, on which depends the whole future of Russia's aviation. What kind of program to "Interfax-AVN said the new head of Saturn Ilya Fedorov.


The Interfax-AVN, September 3, 2009

*- Ilya, will the "Saturn" to develop the engine of the fifth generation?*

- No one questioned the participation of our company in this program, because all that we have today on the fifth generation fighter aircraft has been reached, as we know, the engine that made the Saturn.

*- Do you mean the engine 117S, which are equipped with a multifunctional fighters Su-35 and which, according to experts, is largely consistent with the requirements of the engine of the fifth generation?*

It was created as a result of deep modernization of the engine AL-31F.But if we're talking about an engine for future aviation system frontline aircraft (PAK FA), it must be a completely new engine that nobody, including Saturn, alone can not do. Similar developments were carried out with the broad cooperation.

Incidentally, the domestic engine building since the Soviet Union has traditionally been the distribution of roles between the design bureau, which specialized in the development of various engine components. I am sure that this is what will be developed and the engine of the fifth generation.

Who will act as an integrator in this project will determine the customer - Air Force Russia. But those developments that have at our company, allow a high probability to assume that "Saturn" will remain the lead organization for the development of fifth-generation engine, as defined previously.

*- What other component and engine company will be included in co-operatives to develop a power plant for the PAK FA?*

- I think, in dealing with such large-scale task will involve all the component and engine design bureau, non-integrated new engine corporation.It is known that the best laboratory facilities for fine-tuning of engine components than SNTK behalf Kuznetsova, found nowhere else in the world. Although, of course, it requires modernization. Leading to gas generators has always been the Perm KB. As part of the rotating nozzle best solutions offered by Klimov. we talk about the so-called hot engine parts, there is undoubtedly a leader "Saturn". In the cold part is of interest of use in the Moscow Salyut.

Engine of the fifth generation integrates the best of what is today in Russia's engine building.

*- Is there a clear understanding of what this engine will be different from the power plants of the fourth generation?*

- Firstly, I want to say that some technical difficulties in creating an engine of the fifth generation, we do not see. His creation - the question time and money.

The engine for the PAK FA will be different from now produced aircraft engines less weight and more traction, but still very serious actions to reduce visibility. This is the foundation.

Here we do not discover America, much has been implemented in engines that are installed on the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22 and F-35.Since we are on the path to which we have already passed our foreign colleagues, try to avoid the problems they faced when developing these engines.

- They say that the most important feature of the engine is the fifth generation supersonic cruising.

- I must say, our engine, I mean the 117S, is already providing such a regime.The main task for the engine of the fifth generation - to provide quality higher performance for fuel consumption and thrust characteristics, as well as the thermal signature.

*- At the MAKS-2009 was signed a contract to supply Russia's Air Force 48 Su-35 with engines 117S. Will this order loading of military production "Saturn" before the engine will be the fifth generation?*

- Of course, we are very glad that Russia's Air Force finally began to buy modern aircraft, moreover, equipped with our engines. But I should note that downloading so many engines or for "Saturn" or for the Ufa Engine Industrial Association is not decisive.She does a lot of money, although, of course, support any part of production, employment, production of military engines.

*- By the way, how do you assess the prospects for advancing the Su-35 for export? Passed a information about that to this car show serious interest in many foreign customers, notably China.
*
- We do not sell airplanes, our business - the engine.But sure, the Su-35 will be in demand not only Russia's Air Force, but also foreign customers. And if they contracted the aircraft, the supply of engines, we will provide.

*- Can the engine 117S apply not only to the Su-35, but on other machines?*

- Of course it can. First, the planes that use engine AL-31F.As well as foreign cars.It's no secret that our Chinese partners are developing aircraft with engines like the AL-31F.

But again this is not for us to decide where to sell our engines. There is a special state intermediary in the person of Rosoboronexport. We only participate in the negotiations in terms of technology, providing consulting services.

*- And what about the execution of the contract to build India's new aviation engine AL-55?*

The engine is created, it flies the plane HJT-36. Of course, there are certain issues of technical nature, faced by virtually all producers of aircraft engines, but they can be solved.We, together with UMPO, our partner in this project, now working to increase engine life.

For example, AL-55 Saturn revealed as soon as possible with a sheet, in a relatively short time, using the latest technology, to create a new engine.

The challenge now is to provide customization and mass production of the new engine. Hope we would get.

*- Expressed interest in whether the engine AL-55 Russia's aircraft manufacturers?
*
- This engine can be installed on the MiG-AT, but the fact is that Russia's Air Force as a major educational and military aircraft have chosen, as is known, Yak-130, which uses a slightly different engine.

However, if the customer, the problems with the delivery of the engine will not. Engine of such dimension as the AL-55 now there is not only in Russia but also worldwide.

*- Whether to continue the "Saturn" works on the program creation engine Burlak intended for remotorizatsii military transport aircraft IL-76 family?*

- Burlak - the engine is really interesting, especially as it is developed in a relatively small money. But, unfortunately, we do not see a market for this engine.The fact that Park Il-76 tankers and Il-78 is reduced. Our military customers have sufficient number of spare engines for these aircraft, and proposals for the installation of IL-76 engines Burlak of them has yet been received.

In addition, as we know, there is the decision to establish on the basis of IL-76 new variant of the Ilyushin Il-76MF aircraft engine PS-90A. And here is the corporate policy, beyond which we will not leave.

Nevertheless, work on the program Burlak maintained, they are not curtailed, but a lot of money for the project until firm orders the company to spend will not.

*- And what dividends you expect from your main project in the field of civil aviation engine - SaM146 engine for Russia's new regional jet Sukhoi Superjet 100?*

- Design and manufacture of such an engine as SaM146 - a costly thing, big business in it yet no one had done that, and run a lot of money on this project, we are not waiting. value is different: we are very close to Western technology, learned how to work with them.No design bureau, no engine manufacturing company in Russia, except Saturn, this experience does not.

We had a fundamental restructuring of the company under the production of experimental engines - today we are up to ten items. And most importantly, that people who are working on a program SaM146 can and other engine-enterprises through corporate universities JDC train their colleagues on how to design and produce engines by Western standards, where most other canons of reliability and other characteristics.

Our specialists have been trained in France, Germany, Japan, is well mastered the most modern Western equipment.Unfortunately, the domestic machine tool industry is in decline and, frankly, its just not there. Therefore we have to use Western equipment.And this - programming, digital production, etc. As a result, Saturn has come to an entirely new production.

*- "Saturn" will ensure timely supply of engines for the Superjet?*

- We have a schedule, which determined that the certification of the engine should be completed in November. Let's proceed from that.

Today it is definitely possible to say that the engine failed.It flies well, confirms all the declared characteristics and noise, and fuel efficiency. No technical problems there.The main task now - as soon as possible to certify and deploy a full-scale production.

*- Does the "Saturn" for the necessary financial resources?*

Promised by the Government of 5,2 billion rubles, which will be included in the charter capital, will come later. State provided us loans through Vneshtorgbank. We have completely bought all the necessary equipment for the next year, in preparation of production capacities, which will be made parts of the engine SaM146.

*- "Saturn", as is known, except for aircraft engines, is developing a gas turbine units for marine equipment and engines for cruise missiles.How are things going here?*

- Sea theme, we plan to engage in the future. We expect that soon will arrive in Rybinsk Navy Commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, to see our capabilities and to understand what has been done.After his visit, we will set your volume orders and deliveries.

I would like to note that this is - dual engines. They may also apply to the civil courts.

As for rocket engines and engines for unmanned aerial vehicles, then this theme in "Saturn" also remains. Previously, these engines were made at the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich". Several years ago, their serial production was mastered at the "Saturn".No problems with their production there. Of course, such episodes, which were earlier, when several thousand were produced by the engines a year, today there.But even if it is carried on 200 - 250 pieces - is also good.

*- What are the prospects for "Saturn" on the roar of gas pumping units and power plants established on the basis of gas turbine engines?
*
- This is the most promising topics from a business standpoint.Here we see the basic earnings, basic earnings, which will guide the development of new engines, the development of the enterprise.

Great attention to this direction in the domestic engine-paid executives OPK Oboronprom and GC Rostekhnologii, which provides all possible assistance and support.

For the engine is very important to have large volumes.No volumes - no engine, but here everything will be. Creating energy turbine units - a very promising business.In addition to electricity, it is also a secondary heat, which, through exhaust-heat boilers can be used to heat homes and industrial buildings.

Modern gas turbines - a very cost-effective and far more profitable than many other settings. At JDC has a number of pilot projects with a number of regions that we do not wish to disclose.This will be done later, but believe me, their implementation will bring a lot of money. Including for "Saturn".

Our subsidiary company "Saturn - Gas turbines" is defined by the general contractor for the construction of power facilities JDC turnkey-based gas turbine units

*
- What do you see the role and place of Saturn in the United corporations new engine?*

- "Saturn" - JDC principal place of business - with the strongest design bureau and promising for developing the plant, which is now rebuilt, modernized. As a result, it will be new production.

In our view, the "Saturn" within the JDC is one of the best prospects. The company is very diversified. It developed and produced a wide range of different gas turbine engines.That - and the rockets, and aircraft engines for military and civil aviation and maritime theme, and gas turbine capacity to 145 megawatts. In "Saturn" is a very good test base, which no one else.

Industrial policy "Saturn" in this sense simply perfect.For such enterprises as "Saturn" - the future.

Google Translate

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## sudhir007

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

Russian Air Force will begin the induction of fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which it is developing in partnership with India, from 2015, a senior defence official has said. "Beginning from 2015 we will begin the induction of fifth generation fighters. They will have stealth features, greater engine resource, enhanced target acquisition, new weapon suites and airframe different from the present generation of fighters," Deputy Defence Minister, General Vladimir Popovkin said on "Ekho Moskvy" radio. 

India is partnering Russia in the joint development and production of the FGFA under an agreement signed in Moscow in 2007 during Defence Minister AK Antony&#8217;s Moscow visit. The two nations are expected to finalise the FGFA contract next month during the Russia visit of Antony for the annual session of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation. According to earlier reports the FGFA would be developed on the basis of Sukhoi Corporation's secret PAKFA project. Under the understanding reached between the two countries, a lighter twin-seater version of the fifth generation fighter would be developed for India.


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## Born In The USA

*RUSSIA'S T 50 NEARS FLIGHT TEST *

Follow The Link Below

Defense Technology International | Oct-09 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines


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## gambit

sudhir007 said:


> detail of L BAND AESA RADAR
> 
> Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array
> 
> F-35 Joint Strike Fighter vs Russia's New Airborne Counter-Stealth Radars


Gents...Please read the very crucial condition for this anti-stealth L-band AESA radar to work...


> In the cardinal *co-altitude air to air engagement geometry* for closing high speed targets at medium to high altitudes, the target Doppler will be well outside Mainlobe Clutter (MLC) and Sidelobe Clutter (SLC) which simplifies analysis. As the radar scans only in azimuth, the available dwell time per angle can be greater than in a comparable X-band search radar mode, thus minimising the dB loss incurred due to beamshape and scan considerations, another simplification to the model.


Also look at the chart that said '_Detection range in nautical miles, RCS in square metres._' and note the same co-altitude condition. This chart supposedly shows the distance versus detectibility based upon known RCS values. The F-35's RCS is on the extreme right. Now look at that distance. For all transmissions, those colorful lines, the F-35 is detected at less than 10nm and *AT THE SAME ALTITUDE*...!!!

So what the Russians are telling gullible buyers of their junks is that you can detect the F-35 provided the enemy F-35 is less than 10nm away from you in a head-on engagement and that he is on the same altitude as you are. You -- the reader -- do not need to be a pilot in order to see the absurdity of this sales pitch. Ten nm is well within range of the F-35's air-air missile and what are the odds that he will be in a head-on aspect as well as the same altitude?

I have a great deal of respect for Kopp...But sometimes.. .Aaarrrrgghhh...!!!


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## dbc

gambit said:


> Gents...Please read the very crucial condition for this anti-stealth L-band AESA radar to work...Also look at the chart that said '_Detection range in nautical miles, RCS in square metres._' and note the same co-altitude condition. This chart supposedly shows the distance versus detectibility based upon known RCS values. The F-35's RCS is on the extreme right. Now look at that distance. For all transmissions, those colorful lines, the F-35 is detected at less than 10nm and *AT THE SAME ALTITUDE*...!!!
> 
> So what the Russians are telling gullible buyers of their junks is that you can detect the F-35 provided the enemy F-35 is less than 10nm away from you in a head-on engagement and that he is on the same altitude as you are. You -- the reader -- do not need to be a pilot in order to see the absurdity of this sales pitch. Ten nm is well within range of the F-35's air-air missile and what are the odds that he will be in a head-on aspect as well as the same altitude?
> 
> I have a great deal of respect for Kopp...But sometimes.. .Aaarrrrgghhh...!!!



To be fair, the altitude performance can be improved marginally if the SU pilot performs the aileron roll manoeuvre


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## sudhir007

GLOBAL HAWK said:


> good work Mr Sudhir007
> 
> after seeing your post i just couldn't say thanx and leave
> 
> so


thank for your appreciation


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## gambit

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> To be fair, the altitude performance can be improved marginally if the SU pilot performs *the aileron roll manoeuvre*


You caught that? I thought it is one of the more hilarious thing a hunting/pursuing fighter could do before a fight.


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## dbc

gambit said:


> You caught that? I thought it is one of the more hilarious thing a hunting/pursuing fighter could do before a fight.



 I hope a barf bag is included as standard equipment on the SU.
Conceptually the idea does have merit if the Russians ever make the leading edge radar work with the nose cone radar  will be an astounding feat considering the amount of real time data that will have to be processed.


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## sudhir007

Defunct Humanity: The new Russian anti-radar materials

The Russian researchers go further for developing more advances compounds and technologies for an anti-radar covering. As it's well known, the airframe and the shipframe stealth geometry gives only a partial answer for the contemporary radar development. Only the centimeter and millimeter long radar waves are effectively deflected by such method while the L-band radars progress is remained the growing treat for military devices. Other complimentary methods are composite use and covering. 
The usually used antiradar materials are the resins and paints with ferromagnetic. The new nano-metric anti-radar covering is much more light and stable. It's made with magneto-dielectric layering 2-80 nm thick on a high temperature-steady material. The radar-absorption is about 10 Db in 8-80 GHz diapason, i.e. lg (P1/P2) = 1, while P1 &#8211; is the incoming radar power and P2 &#8211; the reflected. By the formula these materials the RCS can be reduced 10 times. Its relative massa is as 1 &#8211; 1.5 kg/m2. High resistance against climatic factors is provided. They have the one-layer structure instead of usually 5-6. 
This new technology can be used not only for RCS reducing, but for sidelobe radiation reducing on the radars, raising their effectiveness. The military electronics can be defended from radio splashes and an unsanctioned communication access by this way. Personal isolation from the dangerous radar microwaves. 
The potential of this technology allows creating ant-radar materials with working diapason of 1 &#8211; 300 GHz. The implementation of it on the 4th+ generation fighters' fleet could prolong its service while the 5th generation planes are yet to be produced or too costly for some customers.


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## Born In The USA

*India, Russia to launch fifth generation fighter jets*



MOSCOW: India and Russia will launch the joint fifth generation fighters by year end and have agreed to collaborate to develop heavy lift cargo
helicopters and futuristic infantry combat vehicles.

The path for more hi-tech defence collaboration between Moscow and New Delhi was paved with the signing of the joint defence protocol by Defence Minister AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov.

The protocol extends military interaction between the two countries till 2020 and this is expected to make the path clear for inking more major defence joint ventures during the upcoming visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in early December.

The protocol was signed here at the end of 9th session of India-Russia Intergovernmental Commission on military-technical cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) after assurances from Moscow that all pending issues like the delivery of aircraft carrier Gorshkov and nuclear submarine Nerpa would be resolved at the earliest.

The protocol provides for completion of formalities by the year end to launch the joint designing, development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft project.

Besides the development of a state-of-the-art multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) through a joint venture along the lines of highly successful BrahMos JV, India and Russia have also agreed to jointly develop a heavy lift cargo helicopter and futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV).

A joint statement released after the meeting said that India and Russia will collaborate in up-gradation of IAF's main strike fighter Su-30MKI, the older Mig-27 and T-72M1 battle tanks.

It said that the two sides had also worked out the production in India of Main Battle Tanks (MBT) T-90S with full technology transfer.

In his closing statement at the 9th session of IRIGC-MTC - the apex body for coordination of defence cooperation, Antony announced that both sides have agreed to extend their military interaction programme till 2020 and the concrete projects would be identified shortly for signing during Singh's Moscow visit in December.

"On many other issues, including the Admiral Gorshkov project, we have agreed to continue discussions to find mutually acceptable solutions," Antony said expressing confidence that all the pending issues would be resolved at the earliest.


India, Russia to launch fifth generation fighter jets- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

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## holysaturn

India Will Be an Equal Partner in All Aspects of the FGFA
Chairman, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Ashok Nayak

What preparations have you done at HAL regarding the M-MRCA, including talks with competitor companies for absorption of offsets, creation of new or more infrastructures, and hiring of manpower?

It is too early to talk about all this. As you know, the MRCA has six contenders and currently the field evaluation trials are going on. HAL is participating in this to evaluate the maintenance aspects. Regarding the offsets, a clearer picture will emerge after the selection of the aircraft. Once that happens, HAL will initiate talks with the selected company to align its infrastructure to meet the offsets obligation. We have a fairly dedicated export-oriented unit for aerospace structures. We hope to increase this division to meet some of the offset obligations in respect of structures. Depending upon what further needs to be done in this particular area, we will increase the infrastructure.

You mentioned that HAL is looking at the maintenance aspects during the MRCA flight evaluation trials. What is meant by this?

Almost all the aircraft have flown a couple of sorties in Bangalore. HAL has already been looking at various maintenance aspects of these aircraft including what it involves and how easy or difficult it will be to maintain them. Now during the field trials, HAL is working with the IAF as a team to assess the maintenance of these aircraft further. While it will be the IAF that will maintain the selected aircraft in their inventory, HAL will also be assisting them in certain aspects.


What is the status on the first prototype flight of LCH? Considering the LCH model was labelled at HAL stand at MAKS-2009 as an attack helicopter, will LCH compete for the IAFs RFP for 22 attack helicopters?

The first prototype of the LCH will fly by the end of this year. Work on the prototype is progressing well and I do not anticipate any delays. The LCH is a light helicopter and it is not in the category of the 22 attack helicopters that the IAF is seeking. However, the LCH will definitely be armed when it is offered to the IAF.

Director General Sukhoi, Michail A. Pogosyan said at MAKS-2009 that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) prototypes maiden flight will happen by end-2009 and that the basic version of the Indian and Russian FGFA is similar with software changes only. Is this correct? What does this mean for HAL in terms of sharing work, transfer of technology, intellectual property rights issues, and time-frame for the evolution of the Indian aircraft? He also mentioned that Indians could later look at a two-seat aircraft and a naval version.

I would not like to comment on Mr Pogosyans statement and you may take it as the current status. The IAF technical requirements for the FGFA have just been finalised and they are being passed on to the Russians. These technical requirements will include what is needed for a single and a twin seat version and so on. After the technical requirements have been given to them, the technical aspects between the two sides will be discussed in detail. The Indian version obviously cannot be very different from the Russian version. Certain modifications according to the technical requirements will be incorporated in the Indian version and these have already been discussed in detail between HAL and IAF. This then, is the starting point. As you know, it takes a few years between the prototype flight and the acceptance of an aircraft, this time will be utilised between Russia and India to work closely on the Indian version.* I can say that metaphorically speaking, India has taken its first step for the fifth generation aircraft. I would also like to dispel a prevalent notion that while India will pay 50 per cent of the money, it may just get about 10 per cent of the work-share. This will not happen. India will be an equal partner in all aspects in the FGFA.*

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

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## white_pawn

*5th-gen fighter stays on course ​*
New Delhi: India and Russia, after protracted negotiations and some glitches, are now going full steam ahead to finalise the joint project for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which will have super-manoeuverability and supersonic cruising ability. 

The FGFA, along with other R&D projects like the m u l t i - ro l e transport aircraft (MTA) as well as the BrahMos-2 &#8216;hyp e r s o n i c &#8217; cruise missiles, will gain further momentum when PM M a n m o h a n Singh holds a summit with President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow this December. 

India and Russia will then ink the fresh inter-governmental agreement on military-technical cooperation to extend their &#8220;strategic partnership&#8217;&#8217; by another 10 years. The two countries will also sign an agreement on the &#8220;after-sales product support&#8217;&#8217; of Russian-origin equipment held by Indian armed forces. 

This was formally announced after the two-day talks between defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov ended in Moscow on Thursday. 

Though the Indian FGFA will be based upon the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA being currently developed by Russia, it will be built to IAF specifications. IAF is also keen on a twinseater version of the FGFA. 

Antony has already declared India wants the FGFA&#8217;s development to be completed by 2016 to ensure IAF can begin inducting it by 2017. &#8220;FGFA discussions are on track. The FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,&#8217;&#8217; said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.

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## gogbot

Will India be getting any T-50 fighters in the short term ?
At least for training and developing doctrine for 5th gen aircraft. ?


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## Screaming Skull

*India keen to induct 5th-Gen stealth fighter by 2017​*
16 October 2009,

NEW DELHI: India and Russia, after protracted negotiations and some glitches, are now going full steam ahead to finalise the joint project for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which will havesuper-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability.

The FGFA, along with other R&D projects like the multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) as well as the BrahMos-2 `hypersonic' cruise missiles, will gain further momentum when PM Manmohan Singh holds a summit with President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow this December.

India and Russia will then also ink the fresh inter-governmental agreement on military-technical cooperation to extend their "strategic partnership'' by another 10 years, as reported by TOI earlier.

The two countries will also sign an agreement on the "after-sales product support'' of Russian-origin equipment held by Indian armed forces to address New Delhi's long-standing concerns about technical problems and tardy supply of spares.

This was formally announced after the two-day talks between defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov ended in Moscow on Thursday.

While India has several ongoing multi-billion dollar military projects with Russia, which range from refit of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov and lease of K-152 Nerpa Akula-II nuclear submarine to production of 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 1,657 T-90S main-battle tanks, the FGFA is the most futuristic of them all.

Though the Indian FGFA will be based upon the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA being currently developed by Russia, it will be built to IAF specifications. IAF, for instance, is also keen on a twin-seater version of the FGFA.

*Antony, on his part, has already declared India wants the FGFA's development to be completed by 2016 to ensure IAF can begin inducting it by 2017.

"FGFA discussions with Russia are progressing quite satisfactorily...they are on track. The Russian FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,''* said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.

IAF, in fact, recently finalised the technical requirements for its FGFA, which will have long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, and submitted them to Russia.

An Indian team will also be leaving for Russia soon to decide the exact sharing of the technical work-load between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation.

*IAF wants the FGFA to have "a very high degree of network centricity'' as well as multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems -- optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors. Stealth, with a "minimal'' radar tracking signature, will be an important requirement.*

The American F/A-22 `Raptor', each of which costs upwards of $140 million, is the only operational FGFA in the world at present. Another, the F-35 `Lightning-II', in turn, is still under joint development by US, UK and seven other countries.

IAF's most potent fighter is currently the Sukhoi-30MKI, which can be placed a little over fourth-generation, along with others like Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and F/A-18 `Super Hornets'.

While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well.

India keen to induct 5th-Gen stealth fighter by 2017 - India - The Times of India

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## Kavin

The FGFA Conundrum Explained







The limited soundbytes coming from Dr Ashok K Baweja, Chairman of the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), notwithstanding (when he walked into the &#8216;ambush alley&#8217; laid out by scribes waiting to be briefed on the outcome of the 8th India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation, or IRIGC-MTC), the past seven days have produced considerable clarity as well as raised several queries on the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which was originally known within India as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) and will now be co-developed Indian and Russian military-industrial enterprises. 

However, before proceeding further, one stark reality needs to be recognised: The delayed delivery of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (estimated by 2012), and the joint India-Russia R & D slippages of two futuristic programmes&#8212;the FGFA and the multi-role transport aircraft (MTA)&#8212;all have one thing in common: the delays are being caused by an acute shortage of trained technical manpower that currently prevails throughout the Russian Federation. For Moscow has since mid-2007 decided to focus the majority of its scarce human resources firstly towards the creation of new-generation strategic weapon systems, and secondly towards the creation of new military-industrial facilities within Russia that will enable Russia to forever eliminate its current dependence on existing manufacturing facilities located in Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 

Russia believes that such dependency has, since the early 1990s, robbed it of tens of billions of dollars in terms of revenues earned from exports of weapon systems whose intellectual property rights are those of Russia. The implications for India of such measures adopted by Moscow are obvious: the United Aerospace Corp (UAC)&#8212;which now includes Sukhoi Aircraft Corp and RAC-MiG&#8212;along with the Tsentralniy Aerogidrodinamicheskiy Institut (Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, or TsAGI), has now decided to co-develop with India&#8217;s state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) the twin-engined 17.2-tonne FGFA (which in Russia is known as the Mnogofunktsyonalniy Frontovoy Samolyot, or MFS project) for the export market ONLY, for the time-being, meaning for already identified customers such as India and Brazil (which are being offered the aircraft by 2012), while retaining the option to induct the MFS by 2018. It is, however, according top priority to develop the heavier, 24-tonne T-50 Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (PAK-FA) that will be optimised for air dominance, much like the Lockheed Martin-built F/A-22 Raptor. Consequently, the FGFA&#8217;s Russian R & D effort will henceforth be funded by private institutions, will be co-developed only for export and all Russian R & D contributions will henceforth be reduced by 85&#37; and the void will be filled up by HAL and reportedly Embraer of Brazil, which inked a collaborative agreement to this effect with Rosoboronexport State Corp on April 15 this year. It also means that in terms of service induction schedule, the T-50 PAK-FA (photo 4) will be the first to become operational in Russia by 2012, followed by the MFS/FGFA by 2015. The T-50 PAK-FA&#8217;s prototypes will initially be powered by twin 117S turbofans developed and built by MMPP Salyut Moscow Salyut Machine Building Production Enterprise. The 117S, which is a highly upgraded Lyulka AL-31F, now has a total thrust with afterburning of 14.5 tonnes, or 2 tonnes more than the AL-31F, and is also qualified for a 1,500-hour time between overhauls (TBO). Production variants of the T-50 PAK-FA, however, will be powered by the AL-41F, which will be produced by MMPP Salyut, and the aircraft&#8217;s final assembly will be undertaken by UAC&#8217;s Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Organisation (KnAAPO) facility.

The genesis of India&#8217;s participation in Russia&#8217;s MFS project goes back to November 2002 when both Moscow and New Delhi inked a Memorandum of Understanding that, broadly speaking, called for India to begin evaluating its options for a risk-sharing R & D participation in the programme. By then, however, Russia had already decided to go it alone with the T-50 PAK-FA first, but lacked the necessary funding for completing the MFS/FGFA&#8217;s R & D effort. Moscow had, in 1998, already selected Sukhoi OKB&#8217;s T-50 PAK-FA proposal over the competing I-2000 LFI twin-engined design from RAC-MiG, Mikoyan OKB and Yakovlev OKB. The powerplant selected for the T-50 PAK-FA was NPO Saturn&#8217;s AL-41F, rated at 155kN (35,000lb) thrust and under development since 1985. Between 2002 and 2004 the P-50 PAK-FA&#8217;s all-digital mock-up was completed. On May 18, 2003 the P-50 PAK-FA&#8217;s engineering development-cum-production effort officially took off after an agreement to this effect was inked by the Russian Aerospace Agency Rosaviakosmos, Sukhoi OKB, the Sukhoi Military Production Complex, NPO Saturn, Vympel, Zvezda-Strela, TsAGI, Aerospace Equipment Corp, Ramenskoye RPKB, Polet, Tekhnocomplex, Tikhomirov NIIP, Urals Optics Mechanical plant, KNIIRTI, UMPO of Ufa, Gromov Flight Test and Research Institute in Zhukovsky, and MMPP Salyut of Moscow. The Russian R & D masterplan then had called for the T-50 PAK-FA to make its maiden flight in 2009, construction of seven flying prototypes, commencement of series production by 2011 and service entry a year later.

In early 2005, when Sukhoi OKB gave its first generic presentation on the T-50 PAK-FA FGFA to Indian Air Force (IAF) HQ, it was quite surprised to hear that the IAF wanted a twin-engined, tandem-seat 17.2-tonne aircraft that was at least 5 tonnes lighter than the T-50 PAK-FA. Going back to the drawing boards, Sukhoi OKB returned in mid-2005 to give Air HQ a limited technical proposal for a single-engined variant of the T-50 PAK-FA, which was rejected outright by the IAF as being over-ambitious and unrealistic in terms of both the R & D costs to be incurred and the project implementation timetable. This was followed in December the same year by a separate, detailed presentation being given by Sukhoi OKB on its twin-engined MFS/FGFA design (Sukhoi&#8217;s proposal featured forward-swept wings at that time). The proposal also offered a 50% workshare for the Indian R & D/aerospace industrial entities, as stipulated earlier by IAF HQ. It was following these presentations that India selected committed itself to furnishing Russia with an initial sum of US$300 million that was urgently required by Sukhoi OKB to complete the MFS/FGFA&#8217;s detailed design phase and begin metal-cutting. In addition, NPO Saturn and UMPO committed themselves to set a parallel engine production facility at HAL&#8217;s Koraput-based facility to licence-produce an uprated variant of the AL-31FP turbofan with the help of raw materials supplied in Russia, with all moulding and machining work being done in India. For both Moscow and New Delhi this was seen as a very big concession, as Russia had never before transferred its engine production technologies abroad, with even the 1,500+ AL-31FPs for the Su-30MKIs now being supplied off-the-shelf to HAL as fully assembled engines.
Under the new scheme of things now, India and possibly Brazil will ultimately contribute 90% of the $2 billion required for completing the MFS/FGFA&#8217;s R & D phase. The single-seat airframe for the Russian Air Force (photos 1, 2 & 3), which was re-conceptualised late last year by doing away with the forward-swept wings, will be rolled out by late 2009, with its tandem-seat variant (which the IAF wants to induct into service) following two years later. Russia will fund the development of the uprated AL-31FP turbofan (which will be uprated by 20%, according to Dr Baweja), which will provide non-afterburning supersonic cruise speeds, will have a 6,000-hour technical service life, and will come equipped with three-dimensional thrust-vectoring nozzles (moving +/-15 degrees vertically and +/-8 degrees horizontally) as well as full authority digital electronic controls. The single-crystal turbine blades of the turbofan will be treated with a new-generation corrosion-protection coating developed by Urals-based PRAD, which will dramatically extend the service life of those AL-31FPs that are exposed to severe sand erosion. As for the distributed avionics suite of the MFS/FGFA, Russia has given the DRDO and HAL a free hand to define and design the open-architecture cockpit and mission avionics suites and an integrated self-defence suite. The quadruplex fly-by-light flight control system (yes, the IAF has insisted on it, while the Russian version of the MFS/FGFA will use fly-by-wire flight controls) will be jointly developed by the DRDO and Embraer, while potential suppliers of active phased-array radars include THALES of France, Israel Aerospace Industries, Phazotron JSC, Ericsson Microwave Systems, and EADS. Unit price of each tandem-seat variant of MFS/FGFA (another design configuration that the IAF has specified) is currently estimated at $65 million.
Based on the above, several questions have now arisen that are begging for convincing answers. These include:

1) Will it be possible for HAL to have the cake and eat it as well in terms of monopolising the MFS/FGFA&#8217;s detailed re-design requirements (to modify the original single-seat design to a tandem-seat aircraft), especially since its ARDC facility already has its hands full with similar work on the MRTA, LCH, LOH and medium-lift utility helicopter?

2) In order to lessen its work burden when it comes to detailed airframe re-design, will it adopt a consortium approach in terms of enrolling the services of the private sector while it acts as the nodal R & D authority answerable to IAF HQ?

3) Who will be responsible for conducting high-speed and high-altitude wind tunnel tests of the HAL-redesigned MFS/FGFA? Will it done in India or in Russia?

4) Will HAL will be the sole intellectual property custodian for all military airworthiness certification data pertaining to the tandem-seat MFS/FGFA? Or will it be a joint HAL-UAC affair?

5) Who will lead the effort to define and perfect the flight control logic for the redesigned MFS/FGFA?

6) Who will conduct the peer review of the flight control algorithms for the fly-by-light flight control system? In the absence of Russia&#8217;s ability to conduct such peer reviews, which other non-Russian aerospace entity is likely to be approached to conduct such peer reviews?

7) Will the selection of the uprated AL-31F powerplant for the MFS/FGFA also result in HAL eventually forcing the MoD and IAF HQ to select the same turbofan (on financial grounds) for powering the Tejas LCA, thereby trying the MoD to override the technical recommendations of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and IAF HQ? Or will HAL team up with NPO Saturn to successfully bid for developing an uprated variant of the Kaveri turbofan and adopt this very engine as the definitive powerplant for the MFS/FGFA?

8) Will HAL, and not the DRDO&#8217;s ADA and DARE facilities, be in the driver&#8217;s seat when it comes to the redesigned MFS/FGFA&#8217;s systems integration efforts? Or will it outsource such activities to ADA and DARE?

9) Why has the IAF specified a tandem-seat configuration for the MFS/FGFA? If it wants even a fifth-generation combat aircraft to be a two-seater, does this also mean that it will be pre-disposed toward a tandem-seat fourth-generation M-MRCA which is now in the process of being evaluated prior to final selection?

10) Will IAF HQ draw the correct lessons from its experiences regarding the Tejas LCA&#8217;s R & D effort and this time, right from the outset create an over-arching Systems Programme Office that will monitor and guide the multi-disciplinary industrial R & D efforts?

&#8212;Prasun K. Sengupta


----------



## gogbot

Kavin said:


> The FGFA Conundrum Explained
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The limited soundbytes coming from Dr Ashok K Baweja, Chairman of the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), notwithstanding (when he walked into the ambush alley laid out by scribes waiting to be briefed on the outcome of the 8th India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation, or IRIGC-MTC), the past seven days have produced considerable clarity as well as raised several queries on the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which was originally known within India as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) and will now be co-developed Indian and Russian military-industrial enterprises.
> 
> However, before proceeding further, one stark reality needs to be recognised: The delayed delivery of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (estimated by 2012), and the joint India-Russia R & D slippages of two futuristic programmesthe FGFA and the multi-role transport aircraft (MTA)all have one thing in common: the delays are being caused by an acute shortage of trained technical manpower that currently prevails throughout the Russian Federation. For Moscow has since mid-2007 decided to focus the majority of its scarce human resources firstly towards the creation of new-generation strategic weapon systems, and secondly towards the creation of new military-industrial facilities within Russia that will enable Russia to forever eliminate its current dependence on existing manufacturing facilities located in Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
> 
> Russia believes that such dependency has, since the early 1990s, robbed it of tens of billions of dollars in terms of revenues earned from exports of weapon systems whose intellectual property rights are those of Russia. The implications for India of such measures adopted by Moscow are obvious: the United Aerospace Corp (UAC)which now includes Sukhoi Aircraft Corp and RAC-MiGalong with the Tsentralniy Aerogidrodinamicheskiy Institut (Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, or TsAGI), has now decided to co-develop with Indias state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) the twin-engined 17.2-tonne FGFA (which in Russia is known as the Mnogofunktsyonalniy Frontovoy Samolyot, or MFS project) for the export market ONLY, for the time-being, meaning for already identified customers such as India and Brazil (which are being offered the aircraft by 2012), while retaining the option to induct the MFS by 2018. It is, however, according top priority to develop the heavier, 24-tonne T-50 Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (PAK-FA) that will be optimised for air dominance, much like the Lockheed Martin-built F/A-22 Raptor. Consequently, the FGFAs Russian R & D effort will henceforth be funded by private institutions, will be co-developed only for export and all Russian R & D contributions will henceforth be reduced by 85% and the void will be filled up by HAL and reportedly Embraer of Brazil, which inked a collaborative agreement to this effect with Rosoboronexport State Corp on April 15 this year. It also means that in terms of service induction schedule, the T-50 PAK-FA (photo 4) will be the first to become operational in Russia by 2012, followed by the MFS/FGFA by 2015. The T-50 PAK-FAs prototypes will initially be powered by twin 117S turbofans developed and built by MMPP Salyut Moscow Salyut Machine Building Production Enterprise. The 117S, which is a highly upgraded Lyulka AL-31F, now has a total thrust with afterburning of 14.5 tonnes, or 2 tonnes more than the AL-31F, and is also qualified for a 1,500-hour time between overhauls (TBO). Production variants of the T-50 PAK-FA, however, will be powered by the AL-41F, which will be produced by MMPP Salyut, and the aircrafts final assembly will be undertaken by UACs Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Organisation (KnAAPO) facility.
> 
> The genesis of Indias participation in Russias MFS project goes back to November 2002 when both Moscow and New Delhi inked a Memorandum of Understanding that, broadly speaking, called for India to begin evaluating its options for a risk-sharing R & D participation in the programme. By then, however, Russia had already decided to go it alone with the T-50 PAK-FA first, but lacked the necessary funding for completing the MFS/FGFAs R & D effort. Moscow had, in 1998, already selected Sukhoi OKBs T-50 PAK-FA proposal over the competing I-2000 LFI twin-engined design from RAC-MiG, Mikoyan OKB and Yakovlev OKB. The powerplant selected for the T-50 PAK-FA was NPO Saturns AL-41F, rated at 155kN (35,000lb) thrust and under development since 1985. Between 2002 and 2004 the P-50 PAK-FAs all-digital mock-up was completed. On May 18, 2003 the P-50 PAK-FAs engineering development-cum-production effort officially took off after an agreement to this effect was inked by the Russian Aerospace Agency Rosaviakosmos, Sukhoi OKB, the Sukhoi Military Production Complex, NPO Saturn, Vympel, Zvezda-Strela, TsAGI, Aerospace Equipment Corp, Ramenskoye RPKB, Polet, Tekhnocomplex, Tikhomirov NIIP, Urals Optics Mechanical plant, KNIIRTI, UMPO of Ufa, Gromov Flight Test and Research Institute in Zhukovsky, and MMPP Salyut of Moscow. The Russian R & D masterplan then had called for the T-50 PAK-FA to make its maiden flight in 2009, construction of seven flying prototypes, commencement of series production by 2011 and service entry a year later.
> 
> In early 2005, when Sukhoi OKB gave its first generic presentation on the T-50 PAK-FA FGFA to Indian Air Force (IAF) HQ, it was quite surprised to hear that the IAF wanted a twin-engined, tandem-seat 17.2-tonne aircraft that was at least 5 tonnes lighter than the T-50 PAK-FA. Going back to the drawing boards, Sukhoi OKB returned in mid-2005 to give Air HQ a limited technical proposal for a single-engined variant of the T-50 PAK-FA, which was rejected outright by the IAF as being over-ambitious and unrealistic in terms of both the R & D costs to be incurred and the project implementation timetable. This was followed in December the same year by a separate, detailed presentation being given by Sukhoi OKB on its twin-engined MFS/FGFA design (Sukhois proposal featured forward-swept wings at that time). The proposal also offered a 50% workshare for the Indian R & D/aerospace industrial entities, as stipulated earlier by IAF HQ. It was following these presentations that India selected committed itself to furnishing Russia with an initial sum of US$300 million that was urgently required by Sukhoi OKB to complete the MFS/FGFAs detailed design phase and begin metal-cutting. In addition, NPO Saturn and UMPO committed themselves to set a parallel engine production facility at HALs Koraput-based facility to licence-produce an uprated variant of the AL-31FP turbofan with the help of raw materials supplied in Russia, with all moulding and machining work being done in India. For both Moscow and New Delhi this was seen as a very big concession, as Russia had never before transferred its engine production technologies abroad, with even the 1,500+ AL-31FPs for the Su-30MKIs now being supplied off-the-shelf to HAL as fully assembled engines.
> Under the new scheme of things now, India and possibly Brazil will ultimately contribute 90% of the $2 billion required for completing the MFS/FGFAs R & D phase. The single-seat airframe for the Russian Air Force (photos 1, 2 & 3), which was re-conceptualised late last year by doing away with the forward-swept wings, will be rolled out by late 2009, with its tandem-seat variant (which the IAF wants to induct into service) following two years later. Russia will fund the development of the uprated AL-31FP turbofan (which will be uprated by 20%, according to Dr Baweja), which will provide non-afterburning supersonic cruise speeds, will have a 6,000-hour technical service life, and will come equipped with three-dimensional thrust-vectoring nozzles (moving +/-15 degrees vertically and +/-8 degrees horizontally) as well as full authority digital electronic controls. The single-crystal turbine blades of the turbofan will be treated with a new-generation corrosion-protection coating developed by Urals-based PRAD, which will dramatically extend the service life of those AL-31FPs that are exposed to severe sand erosion. As for the distributed avionics suite of the MFS/FGFA, Russia has given the DRDO and HAL a free hand to define and design the open-architecture cockpit and mission avionics suites and an integrated self-defence suite. The quadruplex fly-by-light flight control system (yes, the IAF has insisted on it, while the Russian version of the MFS/FGFA will use fly-by-wire flight controls) will be jointly developed by the DRDO and Embraer, while potential suppliers of active phased-array radars include THALES of France, Israel Aerospace Industries, Phazotron JSC, Ericsson Microwave Systems, and EADS. Unit price of each tandem-seat variant of MFS/FGFA (another design configuration that the IAF has specified) is currently estimated at $65 million.
> Based on the above, several questions have now arisen that are begging for convincing answers. These include:
> 
> 1) Will it be possible for HAL to have the cake and eat it as well in terms of monopolising the MFS/FGFAs detailed re-design requirements (to modify the original single-seat design to a tandem-seat aircraft), especially since its ARDC facility already has its hands full with similar work on the MRTA, LCH, LOH and medium-lift utility helicopter?
> 
> 2) In order to lessen its work burden when it comes to detailed airframe re-design, will it adopt a consortium approach in terms of enrolling the services of the private sector while it acts as the nodal R & D authority answerable to IAF HQ?
> 
> 3) Who will be responsible for conducting high-speed and high-altitude wind tunnel tests of the HAL-redesigned MFS/FGFA? Will it done in India or in Russia?
> 
> 4) Will HAL will be the sole intellectual property custodian for all military airworthiness certification data pertaining to the tandem-seat MFS/FGFA? Or will it be a joint HAL-UAC affair?
> 
> 5) Who will lead the effort to define and perfect the flight control logic for the redesigned MFS/FGFA?
> 
> 6) Who will conduct the peer review of the flight control algorithms for the fly-by-light flight control system? In the absence of Russias ability to conduct such peer reviews, which other non-Russian aerospace entity is likely to be approached to conduct such peer reviews?
> 
> 7) Will the selection of the uprated AL-31F powerplant for the MFS/FGFA also result in HAL eventually forcing the MoD and IAF HQ to select the same turbofan (on financial grounds) for powering the Tejas LCA, thereby trying the MoD to override the technical recommendations of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and IAF HQ? Or will HAL team up with NPO Saturn to successfully bid for developing an uprated variant of the Kaveri turbofan and adopt this very engine as the definitive powerplant for the MFS/FGFA?
> 
> 8) Will HAL, and not the DRDOs ADA and DARE facilities, be in the drivers seat when it comes to the redesigned MFS/FGFAs systems integration efforts? Or will it outsource such activities to ADA and DARE?
> 
> 9) Why has the IAF specified a tandem-seat configuration for the MFS/FGFA? If it wants even a fifth-generation combat aircraft to be a two-seater, does this also mean that it will be pre-disposed toward a tandem-seat fourth-generation M-MRCA which is now in the process of being evaluated prior to final selection?
> 
> 10) Will IAF HQ draw the correct lessons from its experiences regarding the Tejas LCAs R & D effort and this time, right from the outset create an over-arching Systems Programme Office that will monitor and guide the multi-disciplinary industrial R & D efforts?
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta



I am so very confused. 
MCA and FGFA the same
India has to share plane with Brazil

Why is FGFA lighter than the Single seat version
Is India getting stone walled on the project to pick an export version

 help


----------



## unicorn148

mca and fgfa are not the same 
fgfa is not the export version of pakfa 
pakfa is remodefied to meet the indian requirements because india wanted a 2 seater version brazil is showing intrest in joing the project but its not finalised
fgfa will have every ability of the pakfa and india is planning to use the israil aesa radar 

MCA is the indian made fifth generation plane which will replace the jaguars of the IAF mca will use the advance kaveri engine which will have supercruse ability
and mca will be dual engine


----------



## ironman

*Outlines of PAK FA​*Thursday, October 22, 2009

Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article:

1) Can hope for 10-15% PAKFA advantage over F-22 due to two decades of tech. development.

2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack.

3) OLS-35 probably detects Raptor on 100 km distance.

4) PAKFA's AESA radar has probably 1526 modules with overall power 18 KWt. Range for a big air target  400. TWS/A = 60/16.

5) Active antennas in the wings and tail are probable. 

6) OLS with 360 deg.

7) Backward attacking missiles.

8) Has up to 12 Air-to-air missiles (if compact) in internal placement.

9) Two internal bays for WLRAAMs and LRAAMs up to 700 kg each. + 2 bays for short range missiles.

10) While Raptor can have up to 8 missiles in the internal bays.

11) WLRAAM 'Izdelie 810' is MiG-31 R-33 derivative. 400 km.

12) LRAAM 'Izdelie-180PD' is air-breath R-77 derivative. 250 km.

13) 'Izdelie-180'  solid-fuel R-77 derivative 110-140 km. With active and passive radar, homing on jammer.

14) Short range AAM  'Izdelie-300' or K-MD IR matrix, double range of homing.

15) Kh-58UShKE

16) Kh-35

17) 500 kg guided and unguided bombs and cassette munition.

18) Intrafuselage cathapults UVKU-50L  up to 300 kg, UVKU-50U  up to 700 kg.

19) Internal bays total weight 2.000 kg

20) With + external hardpoints  6.000 kg.

21) GSh-30 30 mm autocannon.

22) According to the plans  430 planes must be built for RuAF.

23) Probably price $80 mil.

24) Will replace 339 Su-27 and 300 MiG-31







Defunct Humanity: Outlines of PAK FA


----------



## sathruvinasakh

Russia is looking to have atleast 300 PAKFA/FGFA while India is optimistic of Inducting atleast 200 of the same(ofcourse with a difference in the variant)

And I highly doubt MCA flying before 202.Since a lot of workforce has to put on for FGFA,MALE,HALE,IRJ-90,MTA,UCAV,.......

Unless something happens and the manpower increases dramatically,we cant hope for MCA at the earliest.
But one good thing will be that,by 2020 MCA design will be frozen with 3 or 4 different models and the most technologies needed will be developed by then.Hence only integration and tech upgradation needs to be done.And also Indian side will be burping with a lot of tech being chewed by then.


----------



## sudhir007

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - The PAK-FA Saga Episode IX


----------



## sudhir007

Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article:



1) Can hope for 10-15&#37; PAKFA advantage over F-22 due to two decades of tech. development.

2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack.



3) OLS-35 probably detects Raptor on 100 km distance.

4) PAKFA's AESA radar has probably 1526 modules with overall power 18 KWt. Range for a big air target &#8211; 400. TWS/A = 60/16.

5) Active antennas in the wings and tail are probable. 

6) OLS with 360 deg. 

7) Backward attacking missiles.

8) Has up to 12 Air-to-air missiles (if compact) in internal placement.

9) Two internal bays for WLRAAMs and LRAAMs up to 700 kg each. + 2 bays for short range missiles.

10) While Raptor can have up to 8 missiles in the internal bays.

11) WLRAAM 'Izdelie 810' is MiG-31 R-33 derivative. 400 km.

12) LRAAM 'Izdelie-180PD' is air-breath R-77 derivative. 250 km.

13) 'Izdelie-180' &#8211; solid-fuel R-77 derivative 110-140 km. With active and passive radar, homing on jammer.

14) Short range AAM &#8211; 'Izdelie-300' or K-MD IR matrix, double range of homing.

15) Kh-58UShKE

16) Kh-35

17) 500 kg guided and unguided bombs and cassette munition.

18) Intrafuselage cathapults UVKU-50L &#8211; up to 300 kg, UVKU-50U &#8211; up to 700 kg.

19) Internal bays total weight 2.000 kg

20) With + external hardpoints &#8211; 6.000 kg.

21) GSh-30 30 mm autocannon.

22) According to the plans &#8211; 430 planes must be built for RuAF.

23) Probably price $80 mil.

24) Will replace 339 Su-27 and 300 MiG-31


----------



## gambit

sudhir007 said:


> Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) *Can hope for 10-15% PAKFA advantage over F-22 due to two decades of tech. development.*


Code words for 'we are trying to keep up but are not having much successes in doing it.'



> 2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can *open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar* by itself and on R-77 range of attack.


Highly improbable. The F-22 and F-35 are self-aware of their own calculated RCS with respect to the transmitter. In other words, if the F-22 is aware of the source transmit direction, it will perform a calculation of its physical dimensions against the transmitter's position and will alter its flight profile to present the least RCS to the aggressor radar. Launching an air-air missile is part of this equation. If it is possible to launch a missile with the weapons bay opening sequence *NOT* facing the aggressor transmitter then the aircraft will perform the maneuver. Even if it is not possible for the F-22 to mask its opened weapons bay, the opening and closing sequence are so quick...

F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Launching missiles requires opening the weapons bay doors for *less than a second*, while the missiles are pushed clear of the airframe by hydraulic arms. This reduces the Raptor's chance of detection by enemy radar systems due to launched ordnance and also allows the F-22 to launch long range missiles while maintaining supercruise.


That the aggressor radar will not have sufficient statistical data to determine if the F-22 is in the area.

Many of these sources do not inform their readers that radar detection is essentially a statistical process, meaning it is time dependent to acquire a target. Airliners are called 'cooperative targets' as they *DO* want to be detected. So it is not usually difficult to find an airliner. Fighters are usually 'non-cooperative' targets and it is already difficult to find them when they are working their hardest to avoid the aggressor radar. Now throw in an aircraft whose body is to date the most 'non-cooperative' yet and these people are saying that an open bay door make the aircraft vulnerable? No wonder I do not take Russian or Chinese sources seriously.


----------



## booo

ironman said:


> *Outlines of PAK FA*
> 3) OLS-35 probably detects Raptor on 100 km distance.





gambit said:


> Many of these sources do not inform their readers that radar detection is essentially a statistical process, meaning it is time dependent to acquire a target. Airliners are called 'cooperative targets' as they *DO* want to be detected. So it is not usually difficult to find an airliner. Fighters are usually 'non-cooperative' targets and it is already difficult to find them when they are working their hardest to avoid the aggressor radar. Now throw in an aircraft whose body is to date the most 'non-cooperative' yet and these people are saying that an open bay door make the aircraft vulnerable? No wonder I do not take Russian or Chinese sources seriously.



OLS-35


> Description: The OLS-35 is an advanced infrared search and track (IRST) fire control system designed for the 4+ generation Su-35 fighter aircraft replacing the OEPS-27 sight system. OLS-35 comprises a heat-seeker, a laser rangefinder/designator and a TV camera along with new algorithms and advanced software to outperform its predecessor installed on the Su-27/Su-30 aircraft family. The Su-35 IRST is superior to the OEPS-27 in terms of range, precision and reliability.
> 
> The OLS-35 provides a coverage of +/-90 in azimuth and +60/-15 in elevation with a target acquisition range for non-afterburning aerial targets of 50 km facing up to target's front hemisphere and 90 km facing up to rear hemisphere. The laser rangefinder features a five-meter Circular Error Probable (CEP) and ranges up to 20 km for aerial targets and 30 km for targets on the ground.
> 
> Specifications
> Performance: Azimuth Coverage 180 °, Coverage in Elevation 75 °, Max Detection Range 90 km (49 nm) rear hemisphere of non-afterburning aerial targets, Measurement Accuracy 5 m (16 ft) laser rangefinder



What about Raptor's heat signature?


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## gambit

booo said:


> OLS-35
> 
> 
> What about Raptor's heat signature?


Infrared is a passive sensor, meaning the system must rely upon target characteristics to infer information. IR detection is unreliable on true target range. The system essentially guess on target distance based upon IR emission intensity under ideal environmental conditions.

MILAVIA Aircraft - Sukhoi Su-35 (Su-27BM) "4++ Generation Flanker"


> The estimated range for detection from a tail-on aspect has been reported to be 70-90 km and up to *40-50 km for head-on engagement* for non-afterburning targets.


In a head-on engagement, an aircraft's IR emissions are from leading edges as they heat up due to friction. Nothing so bright as the exhausts, hence the halved distance compared to the tail chase situation. Tactically speaking, the system offers no advantages as if this is a head-on engagement the Su would be detected by the F-22's radar long before the F-22's IR emissions is detected. AMRAAM ranges are longer than 50km.



> The detection and tracking zone is 55-60 ° upwards, 15 ° downwards, and between 60° and 90° in azimuth.


So we have a detection zone that has a bias that is favorable to the Su if the Su is below the target and actually quite narrow in azimuth -- side to side. In effect, the system is best if the Su is below and directly behind the target.


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## BlackenTheSky

it seems really the architecture of this Aircrat is really inspired by F-22


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## sudhir007

*Russia's T-50 Nears Flight Test*

Sukhoi has delivered the second prototype of the fifth-gen T-50 Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces (PAK FA) tactical fighter to the Russian Air Force and static tests have commenced. The flight prototype will be rolled out in 11/2009, but first flight has been delayed. The PAK FA, designed to replace the Su-27, features an avionics suite from Ramenskoe Design Bureau, network centric capabilities and X-band radar from Tikhomirov NIIP. NIIP has also unveiled an L-band active phased array radar that has apparently been designed for installation on the T-50's leading-edge flaps. It has also been reported that the first PAK FA prototype, details of which are classified, will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn 117S engines. 

Russia's T-50 Nears Flight Test


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## Thomas

sudhir007 said:


> *Russia's T-50 Nears Flight Test*
> 
> Sukhoi has delivered the second prototype of the fifth-gen T-50 Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces (PAK FA) tactical fighter to the Russian Air Force and static tests have commenced. The flight prototype will be rolled out in 11/2009, but first flight has been delayed. The PAK FA, designed to replace the Su-27, features an avionics suite from Ramenskoe Design Bureau, network centric capabilities and X-band radar from Tikhomirov NIIP. NIIP has also unveiled an L-band active phased array radar that has apparently been designed for installation on the T-50's leading-edge flaps. It has also been reported that the first PAK FA prototype, details of which are classified, will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn 117S engines.
> 
> Russia's T-50 Nears Flight Test




Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"On 20 August 2009, Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosyan said that the first flight would be by year end. Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy head of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies said that "even with delays", the plane would likely make its first flight by January or February, adding that *there could be at least 10 years between the first flight and commercial production.*"


That statement doesn't bode well. 10 years before commercial production? India would have been much better off spending their billions invested in PAK-FA program. With the F-35 or I suspect the coming F-22 export version.


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## Tejas-MkII

Russia to start 5th generation fighter tests in 2010 - deputy PM | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

*Russia to start 5th generation fighter tests in 2010 - deputy PM*

Russia will start tests of its fifth-generation fighter in 2010, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Tuesday.

*"The trials will begin in 2010," Ivanov said. Earlier reports said test would start before the end of this year.*

Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin has said the fighter, which has been under development since the 1990s, will enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

Russia's one known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor (the world's only fifth-generation fighter aircraft) and F-35 Lightning II, but has yet to take to the skies.

The T-50's maiden flight has been repeatedly postponed since early 2007 for unspecified reasons.

However, in August 2009, Russian Air Force Chief Alexander Zelin said that there were problems with the engines and research was ongoing.

The PAK FA is believed to possess advanced avionics, stealth capability, a ferry range of 4,000 to 5,500 km, and endurance of 3.3 hrs; it is armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

NIZHNY NOVGOROD, December 8 (RIA Novosti)


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## Tejas-MkII

Oops they did it again.....


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## RPK

Russia to commence flight tests of FGFA

Moscow: Russia will soon flight-test the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which is developed along with India, a senior cabinet member said here today. 


"In the end of December-beginning of January, we are not making any New Year presents, but flight tests will start shortly," Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said. 

Under an agreement signed in October 2007, India has also joined Russia in the project based on Sukhoi's PAK FA project and the two nations are in negotiations to finalise the commercial contract for the deal. 

At least three prototypes of FGFA have been made by the KNAAPO aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and several Indian teams have visited the facility in the country's Far East near the Chinese border, sources told. 

The FGFA is to compete with the US F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II and the Russian Air Force plans to induct the futuristic fighter from 2015. 

According to the local media the FGFA is to be equipped with the 'artificial intellect', advanced avionics and stealth capability. 

With several mid-air refuellings it could cruise for hours at the supersonic speed

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## Moscow

time and again we believed that static tests were on and people were downplaying russia and its delay for the first time ever KNAAPO the company making the PAKFA have released a confirmation of the static tests and that engines were powered on and the planes jogged on the runway with inhibition


here is a transation of the original article in russian dated 24/12 /2009
remember its not yet another source its confirmed by KNAAPO who are the makers confirmed by interfax

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Íà÷àëèñü èñïûòàíèÿ ðîññèéñêîãî èñòðåáèòåëÿ ïÿòîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ


Russia a promising fifth-generation fighter - a promising frontline aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA) - the first jogging at the airfield of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KnAAPO). It is reported by Interfax, citing a source in the aviation industry. When it was held rollout of the aircraft and began his test was not specified.
After the rollout pilot started the engines and the plane started moving on the runway. During jogging PAK FA several times carried inhibition. Results produced two jogging. During the test was observed only employees KnAAPO. As expected the end of 2009 PAK FA will do some jogging, and in January 2010 made its first flight.

Earlier, Vice-Premier of Russia Sergey Ivanov declared that the test fifth-generation fighter will begin in late 2009-th - beginning of 2010. In mid-September 2009 Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin announced that PAK FA, also known as T-50 and the product 701, will enter the Air Force of Russia with 2015.

Ministry of Defense of Russia plans to begin procurement PAK FA after it is fully executed contract to supply 48 Su-35 generation "4 + +". The first Su-35 military aircraft Russia will have in 2011, a contract for the supply will be fully implemented by 2015. On the number of PAK FA, which intends to buy the Defense Ministry, while nothing is known.

Officially, Russia's specifications prospective fighters were not reported. Presumably, PAK FA will be able to reach speeds of up to 2,1 thousand kilometers per hour. Range aircraft will be 5.5 thousand kilometers. Armament plane can be represented by 30-millimeter cannon. PAK FA will have 16 points of suspension, including eight located inside the fuselage.

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## stax

Congratulations!
Chinese engineers should hurry up the Chinese 5th gen fighter!

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## Moscow

if every static test goes on fine then only we can expect a full flight as of now the ground tests began way back but trials with engines and radars are very significant development goes on to show that 1 phase is done now 2nd phase of trials finally the 3 rd phase of flight soon god willing

the engines for the prototype are underpowered and saturn has confirmed work on a new and very advanced engine going by the aesa on display a very high trust engine is needed 16 hard points we are expecting a beast as always with sukhoi nothing in the medium range

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## Chanakyaa

Superb!
So Russia clears the doubts and they will definately have PAKFA soaring in the sky in 2010.


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## yashraj

Any Photo of it ???


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## devd

When these flying beast will be inducted in IAF? I am gonna party that day.


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## Storm Force

This i assume is static testing. If its true then expect a first flight in 2010. 

This is great news for Russia and in deed IAF which will help the project financially with a $5 billion +++ investment share.


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## gogbot

Storm Force said:


> This i assume is static testing. If its true then expect a first flight in 2010.
> 
> This is great news for Russia and in deed IAF which will help the project financially with a $5 billion +++ investment share.



Well IAF Investment is supposed to be in excess of 10 billion i belive.
The Investment was Meant to 50/50 share. This in Turn Would also mean ToT is shared equally.

While the PAK-FA design may be frozen.

But
India and Russian Will still Design the Modified 2 seat FGFA. Which is based in different requirements and even Lighter weight. So India may still snatch some design Techniques from Russia yet.


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## BATMAN

> The Investment was Meant to 50/50 share. This in Turn Would also mean ToT is shared equally.


Care to detail the shared ToT? specially the one from india to russia?


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## Chanakyaa

BATMAN said:


> Care to detail the shared ToT? specially the one from india to russia?



Its an open secret, since the Technical Development is already over and the design changes will be be made only to fit the Indian needs which is where Indians plug in.

Technology wise its a Transfer of Tech from Russia to India and notably India will contribute to FGFA that India will use not to PAKFA which Russia will use.

In case Russia decides to have a few FGFAs as well, then Indeed India will Transfer some Tech developed by India that it will equip in this Machine.


Mate, in short we're actually buying FGFA for $5 Billion. ( Of course the Planes will be Bought in price excess of this but that will be lower per plane due to the payment already made during the development )
This price is Excellent considering price of F35 Development and the Chinese Effort in Progress to achieve a similar Capability.


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## navtrek

BATMAN said:


> Care to detail the shared ToT? specially the one from india to russia?



According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37. By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will initially get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.

FGFA will be predominantly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra, a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India, although in keeping with the Russian BVR doctrine of using a vast variety of different missiles for versatility and unpredictability to countermeasures, can be expected to have compatibility with many different missile loadouts

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Large amounts of composites and other materials will be used for enhancing stealth features.

The aircraft will also feature Integrated Modular Avionics and Data fusion capabilities. Its avionics will be specially designed for complete situational awareness, pilot decision aid and aircraft management.


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## jawadqamar

*Tests of Russian Fifth Generation Fighter PAK-FA Begin *

The Russian future fifth generation future fighter, the future tactical aircraft aviation complex (PAK FA) , has made its first taxi runs at the Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) airfield, Interfax reports referring to a source in the aircraft industry. When in particular the airplane's roll out took place and its tests began is not being specified.

After the roll-out, the airman started the engines and the airplane began moving along the runway. During the taxi run, the PAK FA was braked several times. Two taxi runs were made in all. Only KnAAPO employees observed the test. As is expected, the PAK FA will make several more taxi runs before the end of 2009, and make first flight in January 2010.

Earlier Russia's vice premier, Sergey Ivanov, announced that the tests of the Russian fifth generation fighter will begin at the end of 2009 - start of 2010. The deputy defense minister, Vladimir Popovkin, announced in mid-September 2009, that the PAK FA, also known as the T-50 and "Article 701," will begin to reach the Russian air force inventory from 2015.

Russia's defense ministry plans to begin PAK FA purchases after a contract has been fulfilled for the delivery of 48 generation "4++" Su-35 fighters. Russia's air force will receive the first Su-35s in 2011, and the contract for delivery will be fulfilled completely by 2015. Nothing is yet known about the quantity of PAK FA the defense ministry intends to buy.

The technical characteristics of the future Russian fighter have not been reported officially. Preliminarily, the PAK FA will be able to develop a speed to 2,100 kilometers per hour. The airplane's flight range will be 5,500 kilometers. The airplane's armament may be represented by a 30-milimeter cannon. The PAK FA will have 16 hardpoints, including 8 located inside the fuselage.

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## jawadqamar

can any one find picture?


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## Chanakyaa

> The PAK FA will have 16 hardpoints, including 8 located inside the fuselage.



Superb Thats double of what MKI carries !


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## gogbot

BATMAN said:


> Care to detail the shared ToT? specially the one from india to russia?



dude basically India is the Junior partner.

But just as navtrek and xinx pointed out.

India will still develop certain tech for use in the FGFA as well.
Which the Russians can get. 

But my point was raised to point put that India would benefit most , by getting the most advanced Russian Tech.


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## gambit

jawadqamar said:


> can any one find picture?


My sources told me the Photochop specialist is on emergency family medical leave, duration undetermined. But when he returned to active duty, no doubt he will be hard at work hacking up something.


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## abbasniazi

lets see what russia comes up with, traditionally, russians comeup with something which makes USA and the west pee in their pants for a while.

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## Storm Force

I for one have absolutely no doubt that the FGFA or PAK FA will look an awesome machine have some characteristcs similar to JSF and indeed F22 in its general design. 

Russians have for 50 years been the worlds best fighter aircraft producers after USA. 

The flanker was Russia,s answer to the formidable duo of F15 & F16 andcame about 7-10 years later than the usa fighters. 

PAK FA will follow F22 about decade later i don.t think the Russians will disappoint. 

I,m realy keen to see WHAT western technology INDIA may want to add to PAK FA as per mki prpgramme for their version of the FGFA. ie Israeli french who knows even spin off MMRCA winner. 

Regardless i don,t see this FGFA entering Russian service til 2017++ and indian service before 2020


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## illuminatus

abbasniazi said:


> lets see what russia comes up with, traditionally, russians comeup with something which makes USA and the west pee in their pants for a while.



The Americans are way past stealth and already focusing on the future. This is the first serious Russian stealth project. That too still in the making whilst the Americans have already fielded the F-22. Personally, I don't think the Russians will come up with something that will challenge the Raptor. Let's face it, the Americans are at this moment and for quite a while in the distant future untouchable unless a miracle were to occur. To me Russia is like AMD copying and catching up all the time. Whilst, the US being Intel leading up front, setting the pace and tone.


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## Storm Force

The main thing for Indians they have just completed the 4th generation tech/infrastucture at DRDO to a build 4th gen a composite fighter by them selves ie LCA tejas.. 

They will now move to 5th generation technology with some TOT and spin off from FGFA programme which russia will have to share and set up in india for them. 

They will have moved up one generation in 10 years.

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## BlackenTheSky




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## Hulk

I will not doubt capabilty of Russians, they were hit by division and economy. I think India should invest more on Russian project, we can get good benefits in helping Russia.


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## illuminatus

These are CGIs. Let's wait for the real thing.


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## BlackenTheSky



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## Moscow

original view were seen by knaapo officials and even some InAF staff more streamlined nose than the raptor and similarities with both raptor and su27 is the genera opinion


here is an eye accounts expressing of what happened on the runway trials


Writing. So true. They brought it to the taxiway, the preparation of 30 minutes, then brought the engines, the plane left the starting line (itself of course), the snake, turn on 360, again a small snake, stop, podgazoval, jogging and checking the brakes, turning on the 360 in the opposite direction, turning on the 180 and went back to the taxiway, after which he was taken away altogether. In general, everything was working and simply. Everything worked without a failure and it was at 5

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## Storm Force

In reply illmunatus,, 

Russia is behind USA. we all agree. 

BUT russia is also ahead of everyone else including the Europeans and certainly the Chinease. 

Other than Russia who else is even CLOSE to fielding a 5th gen protoptype.

Even the chinease will work mostly on 4 gen J10 until 2015++ 

The europeans will work only on Typhoon/rafael. for years yet.


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## abbasniazi

As far as brother illmunatus's comment is cocerned, i'd say i am no expert in Aviation industry just a reader, but i think the biggest advantage of F22 is stealth, but i,ve read somewhere through a russian source that they,ve found the technology to detect any stealth aircraft without any difficulty and they hinted that the solution of stealth was found out of a very common radar technolgy which was no less then a miracle, i don't exatly remember the link now otherwise i'd post that too.

besides this, i,ve also read that russians have successfully tested and employed plasma technolgy for PAKFA, and i think F22 doesn't have this feature, so PAKFA will certainly have its own cards to play and will stand a very good chance against the F22.


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## abbasniazi




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## abbasniazi




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## abbasniazi




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## abbasniazi




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## abbasniazi




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## pak-yes

Oh.If INDIA Wouldn't be Russia's friend we would have a chance getting it.


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## abbasniazi




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## Storm Force

Have mentioned before that the PAK FA programme and india,s involvement will benefit the already formidable SU30MKI FIGHTER with new improvements. 

These include 

PESA radar changing to AESA by 2014 called Ibris 

New ramjet BVR MISSLES kh172 awacs killer with range of 300km 

And new smart skin electronics and ram coating to edges & wing tips to reduce RCS significantly. 

IAF will benefit massively from both these massive projects.

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## BlackenTheSky

pak-yes said:


> Oh.If INDIA Wouldn't be Russia's friend we would have a chance getting it.



Oh come on man.you are forgetting that china is our friend and we are going to get j xx which will be indeed better than this one .so chill

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## Super Falcon

from now on i hope paf also should go for fifth generation fighter jet development with china we should get JF 17 and J 10 as quick as possible so after that pakistan airforce should focus on fifth generation fighter jet


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## pak-yes

dez said:


> Oh come on man.you are forgetting that china is our friend and we are going to get j xx which will be indeed better than this one .so chill



ya Man you are right.I was just blinded for a moment after seeing all those videos.Man Propaganda does cause some effect.


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## Storm Force

What is JXX.. ???

And is PAF involved in this project if so how ???


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## devd

I also heard of making SU-MKI stealth and i guess MIRAGE by some gulf country as well and now FG one , Dude i am gonna party tonight IAF will be going too much potent in near future.


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## BlackenTheSky

Storm Force said:


> What is JXX.. ???
> 
> And is PAF involved in this project if so how ???



J xx is china's 5th gen Aircraft.China has offered PAF to participate in this project and indeed PAF will.although its still a myth but it could be seen flying in the air within next few years


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## BlackenTheSky

pak-yes said:


> Man Propaganda does cause some effect.



It depends on how take them on yourself


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## pak-yes

^^ya man you are right.Just these beautiful flying machines fascinate humans.


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## UchihaCG

XiNiX said:


> Superb Thats double of what MKI carries !



Terrible!!!!
16 hardpoints??? 

how's this thing supposed to be stealthy? 5th gen?


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## gambit

abbasniazi said:


> As far as brother illmunatus's comment is cocerned, i'd say i am no expert in Aviation industry just a reader, but i think the biggest advantage of F22 is stealth, but *i,ve read somewhere through a russian source that they,ve found the technology to detect any stealth aircraft without any difficulty and they hinted that the solution of stealth was found out of a very common radar technolgy which was no less then a miracle*, i don't exatly remember the link now otherwise i'd post that too.


Here we go with that 'long wavelength' thing again...



abbasniazi said:


> besides this, i,ve also read that russians have successfully tested and employed plasma technolgy for PAKFA, and i think F22 doesn't have this feature, so PAKFA will certainly have its own cards to play and will stand a very good chance against the F22.


Here we go with that 'plasma stealth' thing again...


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## zombie

gogbot said:


> Well IAF Investment is supposed to be in excess of 10 billion i belive.
> The Investment was Meant to 50/50 share. This in Turn Would also mean ToT is shared equally.
> 
> While the PAK-FA design may be frozen.
> 
> But
> India and Russian Will still Design the Modified 2 seat FGFA. Which is based in different requirements and even Lighter weight. So India may still snatch some design Techniques from Russia yet.



In our dreams. The design was closed long before. India provides the money and some material and maybe some software for the avionics thats about it. Its a Russian plane in every sense with guarantee of Indian buy.

Anyway its useless providing all the ToT. What they gonna do with it?The design papers are gonna lie somewhere crumpled up.


Time to scrap the public defense companies and make it zero/low tax for the defense industry like it was done for the software industry.

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## devd

I sometimes really like how nice India foreign policies are . It enjoy the Russian 5th generation , Israel radars , WEST weapons etc. I like these intelligent people Parnab, Chidmbran and off course Manmohan.

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## notorious_eagle

gambit said:


> My sources told me the Photochop specialist is on emergency family medical leave, duration undetermined. But when he returned to active duty, no doubt he will be hard at work hacking up something.



Sir you always seem to underestimate Russia's technological abilities when it comes to Aviation, nodoubt the Americans are ahead but dont you think after all this R & D the Russians might be able to put a plane that can match the F35. In your professional opinion, when do you see the Russians coming up with a 5th Generation Aircraft and can they produce something even close to the F22?


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## gambit

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir you always seem to underestimate Russia's technological abilities when it comes to Aviation,...


No...I do not. The current problems for current Russian aviation is little difference from past problems from the Soviet system. Under the Soviets, finance and engineering talents were not issues for concerns, but then why were the Soviets so consistently behind the US? Economics. Now look at today and see for yourself.



notorious_eagle said:


> ...nodoubt the Americans are ahead but dont you think after all this R & D the Russians might be able to put a plane that can match the F35.


Might be? Yes. Will be? No. But what inevitably will happens is that many people will latch onto certain aircraft characteristics that are comparable to the F-35, or perhaps even surpass it, and grossly exaggerate the overall superiority of the Russian product.



notorious_eagle said:


> In your professional opinion, when do you see the Russians coming up with a 5th Generation Aircraft and can they produce something even close to the F22?


When we have something ready to replace the F-22.

Here are the 'official' unofficial standard for this 'fifth generation' class:

1- Radar signature of less than one meter square at 200 km.
2- Supercruise.
3- Vectored thrust.
4- Internalized weapons.
5- An Active Elect. Scan Array radar system.

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## Storm Force

I stated earlier the Russians and indeed others be it the europeans & china in the future will always copy or attempt to copy USA systems within a decade of USA new weapons. 

F22 CAME IN 2007 its only natural that Russia will field a similar plane in 2017 

Like wise flankers came 10 years after USA teen series. 

And just look at RAFAEL AND TYPHOONS today great planes too. 

RUSSIA lacked money but india has the dollars to help with PAK FA and india will als source jammers etc from Israel and the west 

it will be a big improvement on mki


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## SinoIndusFriendship

randchin said:


> yes hurry up chinis,,,,,,,,,,masters of copying & as everyone knows copying dosent require brains................lage raho



I like it. Brings back memories of months past here at  and BRF. Personally I find your energetic enthusiasm fun. I don't take offense at being a Chini. 

Anyhow, back on topic. Any real photos of the PAKFA yet? That would be real interesting and it would quell the doubters! I'm still 50/50 on whether the J-XX or the PAKFA will be the first to leak photos.


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## Chanakyaa

randchin said:


> yes hurry up chinis,,,,,,,,,,masters of copying & as everyone knows copying dosent require brains................lage raho



Plz Avoid Such Comments. Does no good and invites unhealthy reactions.

Chinese have their own Indigenous Programme which is NOT a Copy of Any thing else , they cant have it as Nothing in the name of Gen 5 Fighter Exists outside US as of Now which they can COPY.

Btw, Reverse Engineering too needs an equal amount of effort and its really not so easy, other wise each country could manage to have its own F16 OR MIG 29 the best selling planes !

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## SinoIndusFriendship

XiNiX said:


> Plz Avoid Such Comments. Does no good and invites unhealthy reactions.
> 
> Chinese have their own Indigenous Programme thats NOT a Copy of Any thing else , they cant have it as Nothing in the name of Gen 5 Fighter Exists outside US as of Now.
> 
> Btw, Reverse Engineering too needs an equal amount of effort and its really not so easy, other wise each country could manage to have its own F16 OR MIG 29 the best selling planes !



XiNiX brother, you have matured much! And I am ashamed to say many Chinese members have become more 'emotional'.

Anyhow, I am happy to see Asia as a whole progressing and have more guts to demand respect we deserve!

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## notorious_eagle

Quite hard for me to believe that even with the Indian financing, the Russians can field a true 5th Generation Aircraft. Afterall the Americans spent $65 billion on the F22 program, the only country that comes to mind that can match that spending power is China and they surely are putting their money to good use in R&D. Lets wait and see!!!!!!!!!


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## Chanakyaa

notorious_eagle said:


> Quite hard for me to believe that even with the Indian financing, the Russians can field a true 5th Generation Aircraft. Afterall the Americans spent $65 billion on the F22 program, the only country that comes to mind that can match that spending power is China and they surely are putting their money to good use in R&D. Lets wait and see!!!!!!!!!



PAK FA is never going to match F22.
But, Russians are known to make Cheaper Planes.

The Price can some times can be take to nearly Half of what the Americans will as u for a plane in the same league.

Su30 = $40 Million
S.Hornet = $65-70 Million

So u may say they do adjust in Low budget.

But You must remember one Gr8 Tale from the History :

*



While Americans spent Millions of Dollars to Develop a pen That could help Astronauts Write in the Space , The Russians Simply Handed a "pencil" to their Cosmonauts !

Click to expand...

*
The Approach to the Problem and subsequent Technical development may definitely change your costs.

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## gogbot

devd said:


> I also heard of making SU-MKI stealth and i guess MIRAGE by some gulf country as well and now FG one , Dude i am gonna party tonight IAF will be going too much potent in near future.



You don't get Stealth for 4.5 gen planes.

None of then Have internal weapons bays.

You get RCS reduction Features.

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## gogbot

zombie said:


> In our dreams. The design was closed long before. India provides the money and some material and maybe some software for the avionics thats about it. Its a Russian plane in every sense with guarantee of Indian buy.
> 
> Anyway its useless providing all the ToT. What they gonna do with it?The design papers are gonna lie somewhere crumpled up.
> 
> 
> Time to scrap the public defense companies and make it zero/low tax for the defense industry like it was done for the software industry.



So we pay then cash to develop a plane, that they will then sell to us.


Come dude, The Russian Negotiation stand point is exactly what you mentioned there. But India has other Idea's. That's why the Deal is till going through Negotiations.



> The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project. *Russia and India had agreed in early 2007 to jointly study and develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA).* On October 27, 2007, Asia Times quoted Sukhoi's director, Mikhail Pogosyan, "*We [India and Russia] will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property [of the new project] in a 50-50 proportion."* The Indian version, according to the deal, will be different from the Russian version and specific to Indian requirements. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations. The wings and control surfaces need to be reworked for the FGFA.



Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms

Your selling our guys short. India will Participate on the design Modifications of the PAK-FA to be made the FGFA. As well The Indian Version will use a lot more composite materials then the PAK-FA. Making it lighter Whist still being a Double seater.

Indian Aviation Industry Will learn a lot from its Russian Counterpart. 
In TOT and design Techniques.

yet India still wants more.



> According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. *HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37.* By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will initially get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.



We are also trying to get Russian Secrets of Engine Design.

Believe me MoD are trying to get as much as it can from this Deal
The Pre-longed Negotiation period alone shows you, GoiG is not just signing what ever the Russians put in front of them.


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## Chanakyaa

gogbot said:


> You don't get Stealth for 4.5 gen planes.
> 
> None of then Have internal weapons bays.
> 
> You get RCS reduction Features.



Guess what our baby LCA scores the best here in gen 4.5 class.

Small in size
Composite Airframe

Two factors that make it an excellent interceptor. Though not stealthy its more stealthier than its counterparts.


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## gogbot

XiNiX said:


> Guess what our baby LCA scores the best here in gen 4.5 class.
> 
> Small in size
> Composite Airframe
> 
> Two factors that make it an excellent interceptor. Though not stealthy its more stealthier than its counterparts.



It is the Smallest and lightest Fighter out there

its RCS is naturally very small. And its rate of climb is very high

people don't realize how excellent the Tejas really is. Each jet is a potent machine

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## Developereo

BATMAN said:


> Care to detail the shared ToT? specially the one from india to russia?



Didn't you know? The Russians are stupid and need the Indians to teach them about composites, cockpit design and avionics. Makes you wonder how they managed to compete with the Americans all these decades on their own... 



gogbot said:


> people don't realize how excellent the Tejas really is. Each jet is a potent machine



Without a working engine, it's mostly an _impotent_ machine.


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## KSRaj

Developereo said:


> Without a working engine, it's mostly an _impotent_ machine.



I hope you do realise that the engine powering the LCA currently (GE F404) powers one of the most successful aircraft.

In case you are referring to the Kaveri, then even the JF-17's "original" engine is not yet up-to-mark. So as per you, JF-17 is impotent, right?


Back to topic,
With so many folks already having seen the PAKFA, why is it taking so much time for someone to leak some visuals of it! If not the photos, atleast a description of how it looks like.


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## RAHUL INDIAN

Developereo said:


> *Without a working engine, it's mostly an impotent machine*.



i would differ here....machine remains potent even if it uses other engine..!!!

Whose engine it is machine doesnt know the difference...

Yes u can say India need to work out its own engine also.....that is fine....we understand it and as u must be aware we are working on the issue....


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## Chanakyaa

Developereo said:


> Didn't you know? The Russians are stupid and need the Indians to teach them about composites, cockpit design and avionics. Makes you wonder how they managed to compete with the Americans all these decades on their own...


Mate as i said earlier, its true that as far as PAKFA is concerned India would be at the receivers end.

BUT, Starting late never means u cant get ahead.
Indians have achieved a much Cheaper Space Launch systems - PSLV .. its one of the most Reliable and the cheapest with 16 successful flights.

Russians are ahead of us, but all those talks of India being a Super power are not entirely a myth atleast when Obama Says - India a Global Nuclear Power.
We have at least Something if not Everything. That "Something" too is rare ... how many economies in SA are growing at 8&#37; in this recession era ?




> Without a working engine, it's mostly an _impotent_ machine.



Mate, The GE404 is already in India and the First Batch of LCA will be equipped with it.

By the time First Batch rolls out, The Deal on EJ or the GE414 will be done so Next versions of LCA I and II will have a confirmed Engine.

Later, Kaveri will replace these once its development is over. This is being perused separately.

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## gogbot

Developereo said:


> Didn't you know? The Russians are stupid and need the Indians to teach them about composites, cockpit design and avionics. Makes you wonder how they managed to compete with the Americans all these decades on their own...



Oh so China was stupid they need Pak Help to make JF-17.
Your logic is Both Belittling and wrong.

Everyone knows India IS junior partner.
But even India has Area where it can Compere Internationally in.
There are A few things we can offer to the Project. Our success in Carbon Composites is just one of them.



Developereo said:


> Without a working engine, it's mostly an _impotent_ machine.





> *Specifications (HAL Tejas) MK-1*
> 
> *Performance*
> 
> * Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
> o Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
> o Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,100 lbf)
> 
> * Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg (31,967 lb)
> 
> * Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
> 
> * External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
> 
> 
> * Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
> 
> * Range: 2000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
> 
> * Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
> 
> * Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
> 
> * Thrust/weight: 1.02





> *Specifications (JF-17/FC-1)*
> 
> *Performance*
> 
> * Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
> 
> * Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
> o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN (11,106 lbf)
> o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN (18,973 lbf)
> 
> * Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)
> 
> 
> * Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
> 
> * Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
> 
> * Ferry range: 3,000 km (2,175 mi)
> 
> * Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
> 
> * Thrust/weight: 0.99



For a Plane with No engine it Performs really well don't you think.
Not to mention the High rate of Climb and the Lowest RCS for non stealth fighter.


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## zombie

gogbot said:


> So we pay then cash to develop a plane, that they will then sell to us.
> 
> 
> Come dude, The Russian Negotiation stand point is exactly what you mentioned there. But India has other Idea's. That's why the Deal is till going through Negotiations.
> 
> 
> 
> Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms
> 
> Your selling our guys short. India will Participate on the design Modifications of the PAK-FA to be made the FGFA. As well The Indian Version will use a lot more composite materials then the PAK-FA. Making it lighter Whist still being a Double seater.
> 
> Indian Aviation Industry Will learn a lot from its Russian Counterpart.
> In TOT and design Techniques.
> 
> yet India still wants more.
> 
> 
> 
> We are also trying to get Russian Secrets of Engine Design.
> 
> Believe me MoD are trying to get as much as it can from this Deal
> The Pre-longed Negotiation period alone shows you, GoiG is not just signing what ever the Russians put in front of them.



The design was completed long back. What is there to negotiate on now? As you said the negotiations are still going on and the first post of this thread is that the plane is already making its test run with the engines. 

India wanted to work on the Mig version of 5th gen fighter so it could participate in early stages but Russia said it would follow Suhkois design that was almost already completed.

Ofcourse the Sukhoi chief will say that. What else he is supposed to say? But what is that India can offer that Russia doesnt know. Like I said some material and some part of avionics maybe(besides the cash)[Your post confirms it in fact-thx for the link]. Can India decide the engine? The body layout? The radar? The test bed? The stealth technology(not some ram paint)? Cmon please be realistic. Its like asking SriLanka to enter into LCA developent with us and expecting 50-50 partenership.

As far as engine design ToT goes. I think you already know problems with our Kaveri engine. If we are so good at incorportaing engine design know how lets first make RD-33 and AL-31 no? Do we have the capability to make them and modify/improve them?
We use Migs and Sukhoi's no..wouldnt developing and modifying engines for that be useful.

So they are gonna make one-two seater versions different for India and Russia? So it doesnt change anything..Cant their designers make a few adjustments for a customer.

I'm not selling our guys short. Just being realistic over all this nonsense fed to us that we lap up in eagerness being defense enthusiasts and well wishers.

I we really had a vision we would invest on
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

That 5 billion would be more worthwhile invested in these and we would have left over for other things. Ofcourse this doesnt look all that glamorous compared to 5th gen blah blah


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## Red Dwarf

Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.

If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility that a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.


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## zombie

Red Dwarf said:


> Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.
> 
> If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility than a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.



RD, India uses Su-30mki which is 2-seater. Most of the guys who go to this FGFA would most prob be ex Su-30mki pilots.

Moreover its not a big design change for 2 seater for Russia. Remember even if only for single seater development they would create a two seater for training purposes. From that to a proper 2 seater version is not far off.


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## Chanakyaa

zombie said:


> RD, India uses Su-30mki which is 2-seater. Most of the guys who go to this FGFA would most prob be ex Su-30mki pilots.
> 
> Moreover its not a big design change for 2 seater for Russia. Remember even if only for single seater development they would create a two seater for training purposes. From that to a proper 2 seater version is not far off.



PAKFA will be much lighter than MKI.
I dont think it will be wise that PAKFA pilots should be ExMKI Pilots.

It takes time to master the plane . at least a decade when u mature with the platform.
Indian have just started maturing with MKI Now if these pilots are sent for FGFA squadrons, then their experience of MKI is all wasted since they will have to start from zero.

Mind it, that even a Mig21 Expert Pilot can give MKI a tough fight .. the very reason why you cannot underestimate PAF F16s as they have much more experance of F16s Platform than we have on Mirages or MKIs. 
The Technological superiority is not everything as demonstrated in Vietnam.

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## gogbot

zombie said:


> The design was completed long back. What is there to negotiate on now? As you said the negotiations are still going on and the first post of this thread is that the plane is already making its test run with the engines.
> 
> India wanted to work on the Mig version of 5th gen fighter so it could participate in early stages but Russia said it would follow Suhkois design that was almost already completed.
> 
> Ofcourse the Sukhoi chief will say that. What else he is supposed to say? But what is that India can offer that Russia doesnt know. Like I said some material and some part of avionics maybe(besides the cash)[Your post confirms it in fact-thx for the link]. Can India decide the engine? The body layout? The radar? The test bed? The stealth technology(not some ram paint)? Cmon please be realistic. Its like asking SriLanka to enter into LCA developent with us and expecting 50-50 partenership.
> 
> As far as engine design ToT goes. I think you already know problems with our Kaveri engine. If we are so good at incorportaing engine design know how lets first make RD-33 and AL-31 no? Do we have the capability to make them and modify/improve them?
> We use Migs and Sukhoi's no..wouldnt developing and modifying engines for that be useful.
> 
> So they are gonna make one-two seater versions different for India and Russia? So it doesnt change anything..Cant their designers make a few adjustments for a customer.
> 
> I'm not selling our guys short. Just being realistic over all this nonsense fed to us that we lap up in eagerness being defense enthusiasts and well wishers.
> 
> *I we really had a vision we would invest on
> 1)Engine test bed
> 2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.*
> 
> That 5 billion would be more worthwhile invested in these and we would have left over for other things. Ofcourse this doesnt look all that glamorous compared to 5th gen blah blah



dude what the hell ?

Did u even read the stuff i posted

The FGFA is a plane That we choose. we set the requirements and we picked the engine. We Can modify The plane just as much as the MKI.
In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians. This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project. The FGFA will be as Indian as that. We will have as much TOT and Intellectual property as That JV.

Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT.


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## gogbot

Red Dwarf said:


> Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.
> 
> If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility that a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.



Long range strategic bombing Missions. and IAF also seems to Prefer the 2 pilot System.

also This Makes Multi tasking Much more easy for Pilots as the work load is now Shared.
F-22 pilots are considered Operators as the sheer amount of Tasks they have to do is more then the actual Piloting.

The Increase in RCS is very minor.

I wont effect Its Stealth capability.

Also there is the Manpower issue with having a 2 pilot platform.
where lets say We need 400 pilots to Operate 200 MKI
We could Have had 400 pilots operating 400 planes alternatively.
Making it more expensive and difficult to maintain.
So most others choose the Single seater platofrms

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## zombie

gogbot said:


> dude what the hell ?
> 
> Did u even read the stuff i posted
> 
> The FGFA is a plane That we choose. we set the requirements and we picked the engine. We Can modify The plane just as much as the MKI.
> In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians. This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project. The FGFA will be as Indian as that. We will have as much TOT and Intellectual property as That JV.
> 
> Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT.



What you posted and what I said is not much different. The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not. 

I said India's contribution will be largely material(composites) and some avionics. This is what HAL chairman said.


> According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics.



I said Indian version and Russion version is pretty much the same plance except for some minor changes. This is what the Russian minister said. 


> By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will initially get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.



I made a couple of statements which are completely vindicated by your own references by the top two folks in this development.



> In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians.


 Do you see the problem in this. What exactly is ours in this please tell me. The test bed? The engine? The body design? the radar? You have 95% of the plane development right there.



> This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project.


 You are too naive brother. In fact it will be much less than the brahmos and even the brahmos is not a great example for tot and you know that. Do we have the brahmos engine design after all these years? 

I dont think you need reference for this right? You know the story.

Why didnt India buy the design? Why is Russia refusing to transfer the tech? Why the scientists werent able to reverse engineer after all these years? Heck we recently even had some problems in tech transfer of that stupid T-90. Can India make a brahmos like missile(similar speeds) on its own now after all these years?

Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years? 
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

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## zombie

> Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT


Look when you say ToT you have to be *crystal clear on which tech we are after*? Then ask questions like 
a) What level are we at now on this?
b) *Do we have the current version of this tech atleast now?*
c) If not what can be done to get that?
d) Do we have the manufacturing capability to produce the current tech version in large scale? If not build that first.
e) Is there a cheaper way to get the current tech?
f) Shouldnt we be first deploying systems developed with current tech, designed and manufactured by ourselves 100&#37; before moving to next version?
g) Is there a way to only buy design

Do u think our guys have asked/answered all these questions that even lower management guys in private sector would ask.


----------



## gogbot

zombie said:


> What you posted and what I said is not much different. The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not.
> 
> I said India's contribution will be largely material(composites) and some avionics. This is what HAL chairman said.
> 
> 
> I said Indian version and Russion version is pretty much the same plance except for some minor changes. This is what the Russian minister said.
> 
> 
> I made a couple of statements which are completely vindicated by your own references by the top two folks in this development.
> 
> Do you see the problem in this. What exactly is ours in this please tell me. The test bed? The engine? The body design? the radar? You have 95% of the plane development right there.
> 
> You are too naive brother. In fact it will be much less than the brahmos and even the brahmos is not a great example for tot and you know that. Do we have the brahmos engine design after all these years?
> 
> I dont think you need reference for this right? You know the story.
> 
> Why didnt India buy the design? Why is Russia refusing to transfer the tech? Why the scientists werent able to reverse engineer after all these years? Heck we recently even had some problems in tech transfer of that stupid T-90. Can India make a brahmos like missile(similar speeds) on its own now after all these years?
> 
> Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years?
> 1)Engine test bed
> 2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.






> By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will *initially* get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.



Key word Initially. This is Until the FGFA is Completed. 



> The difference between PAK FA and the FGFA will be similar to that between Su-30MK and Su-30MKI. Su-30MK is the commercial version of the Russian Su-30M, whereas the Su-30MKI (MKI stands for "Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Indiski" meaning "Modernized Commercial India".) jointly-developed with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Indian Air Force. Includes Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) and canards. Equipped with a multi-national avionics complex sourced from India, Israel, Russia and France.
> 
> *The PAK FA and the FGFA will be having minimum of common technology.* Further the FGFA will be predominantly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra, a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India, although in keeping with the Russian BVR doctrine of using a vast variety of different missiles for versatility and unpredictability to countermeasures, can be expected to have compatibility with many different missile loadouts. The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces.



Defence Aviation - Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter

As for 



> Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years?
> 1)Engine test bed
> 2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.





> The PAK FA will Use 2× Saturn-Lyulka AL-41F turbofan



whilst India wants to Use 



> According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the *evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37.*






> The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not



That's the entire reason for Initiating the JV. Trying to make the FGFA variant as Different As possible.

HAL will be handling the service of the plane. Russia will have as Minimal Involvement as Possible.

*We have no engine test bed as the FGFA development has yet to start. After the PAK-FA takes it s test flight. work on the FGFA will begin latter after that. Given that No two seater variant was PLanned.
None exists as of yet. Not even A design for A 2 seater variant is Available.
When development begins India will get a Test Bed
The FGFA wont even fly till 2012 at the best case scenario.*

We are not involved in the development of the PAk-FA. But the FGFA specifically.


----------



## shravan

gogbot said:


> We are not involved in the development of the PAk-FA.




Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.


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## gogbot

shravan said:


> Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.



PAK-FA design is frozen

we cant contribute anything.

and i seriously doubt we have stealth Tech


----------



## Chanakyaa

shravan said:


> Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.



Since the design was over when we stepped in; definately the airframe was also done.
Indian stealth, if u refer to LCA is limited to absorber Paint and Reduced RCS airframe both of which are very less significant 
( Design Over so we dont contribute to Airframe and the plane will use much advanced stealth options like internal weapons bay. )

Thus PAKFA will not have indian composites.

But as gogbot said, things could be different for FGFA, but i doubt it will involve our composites which translates to complete airframe redisign.

We contribute in Softwares, avionics, self defence module and weapons especially in FGFA.


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## gogbot

XiNiX said:


> Since the design was over when we stepped in; definately the airframe was also done.
> Indian stealth, if u refer to LCA is limited to absorber Paint and Reduced RCS airframe both of which are very less significant
> ( Design Over so we dont contribute to Airframe and the plane will use much advanced stealth options like internal weapons bay. )
> 
> Thus PAKFA will not have indian composites.
> 
> But as gogbot said, things could be different for FGFA, but i doubt it will involve our composites which translates to complete airframe redisign.
> 
> We contribute in Softwares, avionics, self defence module and weapons especially in FGFA.



For The last time the FGFA is a redesign of the Airframe.



> According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, *HAL will be contributing largely to composites*, cockpits and avionics.



We have set a Number of requirements that Mean the Airframe already needs to Be adjusted and tweaked. So we can modify it as we need.

Foremost is the 2 pilot configuration

Also The FGFA is planned to be lighter as revealed during the MAKS 09



> Contrary to the intense pre-show hype about Russia lifting the curtains off its long-awaited *22.5-tonne PAK-FA fifth-generation multi-role combat aircraft* and the first definitive MiG-35UBK tandem-seat prototype (from United Aircraft Corps Nizhny Novgorod-based Sokol Aircraft Factory), no such event eventually took place. Instead, what was showcased were a smaller number of new-generation precision-guided munitions (PGM), and *avionics for the PAK-FA and its 16.5-tonne variant, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).*



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/25061-indo-russian-pak-fa-fgfa-14.html#post476301
(i cant find the old ruski article)

India wants to use more composites to lower the weight.

There is some legitimate design work involved.

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## Storm Force

Notorious Eagle 

Russia developed mid 4th generation flankers like su30 mki & su35 .

Russia introduced TVC & HMS in cockpits 

They have already demonstrated their engineering ability. 

PAK FA may not match F22 

But it will match JSF & BETTER both Typhoon & Rafael


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## gogbot

Storm Force said:


> Notorious Eagle
> 
> Russia developed mid 4th generation flankers like su30 mki & su35 .
> 
> Russia introduced TVC & HMS in cockpits
> 
> They have already demonstrated their engineering ability.
> 
> PAK FA may not match F22
> 
> But it will match JSF & BETTER both Typhoon & Rafael



iTS being built to meet the full fledged Air superiority role.

I would think if it were not able to Match the F-22 then the whole project is a waste of time.


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## Thomas

gambit said:


> No...I do not. The current problems for current Russian aviation is little difference from past problems from the Soviet system. Under the Soviets, finance and engineering talents were not issues for concerns, but then why were the Soviets so consistently behind the US? Economics. Now look at today and see for yourself.
> 
> 
> Might be? Yes. Will be? No. But what inevitably will happens is that many people will latch onto certain aircraft characteristics that are comparable to the F-35, or perhaps even surpass it, and grossly exaggerate the overall superiority of the Russian product.
> 
> 
> When we have something ready to replace the F-22.
> 
> Here are the 'official' unofficial standard for this 'fifth generation' class:
> 
> 1- Radar signature of less than one meter square at 200 km.
> 2- Supercruise.
> 3- Vectored thrust.
> 4- Internalized weapons.
> 5- An Active Elect. Scan Array radar system.



You left out one of the most important advantages the F-22 has as well. 

The multifunction advanced data link system.

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## saurabh

A.V. said:


> time and again we believed that static tests were on and people were downplaying russia and its delay for the first time ever KNAAPO the company making the PAKFA have released a confirmation of the static tests and that engines were powered on and the planes jogged on the runway with inhibition
> 
> 
> here is a transation of the original article in russian dated 24/12 /2009
> remember its not yet another source its confirmed by KNAAPO who are the makers confirmed by interfax
> 
> Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Íà÷àëèñü èñïûòàíèÿ ðîññèéñêîãî èñòðåáèòåëÿ ïÿòîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ
> 
> 
> Russia a promising fifth-generation fighter - a promising frontline aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA) - the first jogging at the airfield of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KnAAPO). It is reported by Interfax, citing a source in the aviation industry. When it was held rollout of the aircraft and began his test was not specified.
> After the rollout pilot started the engines and the plane started moving on the runway. During jogging PAK FA several times carried inhibition. Results produced two jogging. During the test was observed only employees KnAAPO. As expected the end of 2009 PAK FA will do some jogging, and in January 2010 made its first flight.
> 
> Earlier, Vice-Premier of Russia Sergey Ivanov declared that the test fifth-generation fighter will begin in late 2009-th - beginning of 2010. In mid-September 2009 Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin announced that PAK FA, also known as T-50 and the product 701, will enter the Air Force of Russia with 2015.
> 
> Ministry of Defense of Russia plans to begin procurement PAK FA after it is fully executed contract to supply 48 Su-35 generation "4 + +". The first Su-35 military aircraft Russia will have in 2011, a contract for the supply will be fully implemented by 2015. On the number of PAK FA, which intends to buy the Defense Ministry, while nothing is known.
> 
> Officially, Russia's specifications prospective fighters were not reported. Presumably, PAK FA will be able to reach speeds of up to 2,1 thousand kilometers per hour. Range aircraft will be 5.5 thousand kilometers. Armament plane can be represented by 30-millimeter cannon. PAK FA will have 16 points of suspension, including eight located inside the fuselage.



Extremely exiting news. But unfortunately hard to believe. Cant find it anywhere after lot of searching on google, except for defense forums. Can you give more links, or this article is legit enough?


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## gubbi

gogbot said:


> For The last time the FGFA is a redesign of the Airframe.
> 
> We have set a Number of requirements that Mean the Airframe already needs to Be adjusted and tweaked. So we can modify it as we need.
> 
> Foremost is the 2 pilot configuration
> 
> Also The FGFA is planned to be lighter as revealed during the MAKS 09
> 
> India wants to use more composites to lower the weight.
> 
> There is some legitimate design work involved.



Apart from all the differences, I had read somewhere that we insisted for a FBL fcs rather than FBW fcs. I am unable to get the source. Do you have any idea how true that is? Does HAL have any experience with the FBL fcs either with MKI test beds (if any) or LCA?


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## Moscow




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## Moscow

guess the picture and dissect thats not a pakfa 
lol

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## gogbot

gubbi said:


> Apart from all the differences, I had read somewhere that we insisted for a FBL fcs rather than FBW fcs. I am unable to get the source. Do you have any idea how true that is? Does HAL have any experience with the FBL fcs either with MKI test beds (if any) or LCA?



Yes, there was an article during MAKS 09 that said India Had Insisted on Having quad FBL fcs. But we wont know anything Till HAL and Sukhoi release the specifications.

Publicly HAL has never used FBL. It might have to be developed. Or Sukhoi may provide the FBL

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## Storm Force

Lets just assume that today Russia is the only country in the world with the aero engineering capability to build something even close to F22... 

if pak FA come even close i think both RUSSIA & INDIA will delighted.


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## UchihaCG

Storm Force said:


> Lets just assume that today Russia is the only country in the world with the aero engineering capability to build something even close to F22...
> 
> if pak FA come even close i think both RUSSIA & INDIA will delighted.



 very true..... Even China I doubt could build a 5th gen plane. The only thing i see "indigenously" built by them is the J-10. J-11 is a copy of Su-27. Russians have better R & D.

We have to also see guys; the Obama administration stopped producing the F-22 due it's extreme costs. The PAKFA I doubt will cost anywhere near that amount (150 mil). Though it wouldn't equally match the F-22, the PAKFA is a major boost to India and Russia.

I'm happy the US won't be selling these things to other countries any time soon.  PAF will have to go for Chinese aircraft in the future... Also, I am hoping RUS won't sell the PAKFA to China.....


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## devd

UchihaCG said:


> very true..... Even China I doubt could build a 5th gen plane. The only thing i see "indigenously" built by them is the J-10. J-11 is a copy of Su-27. Russians have better R & D.
> 
> We have to also see guys; the Obama administration stopped producing the F-22 due it's extreme costs. The PAKFA I doubt will cost anywhere near that amount (150 mil). Though it wouldn't equally match the F-22, the PAKFA is a major boost to India and Russia.
> 
> I'm happy the US won't be selling these things to other countries any time soon.  PAF will have to go for Chinese aircraft in the future... Also, I am hoping RUS won't sell the PAKFA to China.....


If Russia sell PAKFA to china then whats the mean of India investing 5B $ into it with no TOT. The whole politics is to avoid the sell of these beast to china and let only India and Russia have the fruit. I like Indian game ., And it was a tough decision for Russia to let the sell market die for china because it is the big buyer for Russia, But Russia left no other option just to fund the project and let the Indian demand on agreement.


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## razgriz19

UchihaCG said:


> Terrible!!!!
> 16 hardpoints???
> 
> how's this thing supposed to be stealthy? 5th gen?



8 internal, and 8 onthe wings.......i think...

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## saurabh

UchihaCG said:


> Terrible!!!!
> 16 hardpoints???
> 
> how's this thing supposed to be stealthy? 5th gen?



For stealth, only internal hardpoints would be used. Than again, it might be speculation. The real picture would be out there soon, so just have some patience.


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## aimarraul

devd said:


> If Russia sell PAKFA to china then whats the mean of India investing 5B $ into it with no TOT. The whole politics is to avoid the sell of these beast to china and let only India and Russia have the fruit.


it means india invested huge $$$ in other's defence industry but can't get any core technology of PAK-FA.please don't tell me india is special for russia .......answer my question first, why was russia seeking for partners only after they finished the design of PAKFA?indian might say "we are not idiot",but please tell me " do india have any other options ?"U.S? they are not even willing to share the core technology of F-35 with their allies,and india have no chance get F-35 before 2025 even if U.S was agree to sell 


devd said:


> I like Indian game


indian is playing no game &#65292;all the cards is in russia's hand


devd said:


> And it was a tough decision for Russia to let the sell market die for china because it is the big buyer for Russia


it's a tough decision for russia if it was 10 years ago.please check the deals between china and russia in the last ten years, It is obvious where china is going.and we never expect too much from them ever since china-soviet reapproached.

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## faithfulguy

These look like rip offs from back widow. F-23


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## faithfulguy

gogbot said:


> iTS being built to meet the full fledged Air superiority role.
> 
> I would think if it were not able to Match the F-22 then the whole project is a waste of time.



That is not a good attitute. US is only bilding about 168 F-22 so F-22 cannot be every where. When F-22 is not present, this plane would be the air superiority fighter.

I would say that in 2025, Russia/Europe and China should be able to come up with something. That is when the next generation US fighter finally make public.


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## faithfulguy

Storm Force said:


> Lets just assume that today Russia is the only country in the world with the aero engineering capability to build something even close to F22...
> 
> if pak FA come even close i think both RUSSIA & INDIA will delighted.



Maybe JFS but not F-22


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## faithfulguy

aimarraul said:


> it's a tough decision for russia if it was 10 years ago.please check the deals between china and russia in the last ten years, It Is obvious where china is going.and we never expect too much from them ever since china-soviet reapproached.



So I guess Russia won't sell this to China base on your remark. So where is China going? If its obvious, how come I'm asking the question.


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## devd

aimarraul said:


> it means india invested huge $$$ in other's defence industry but can't get any core technology of PAK-FA.please don't tell me india is special for russia .......answer my question first, why russia was seeking for partners only after they finished the design of PAKFA?indian might say "we are not idiot",but please tell me " do india have any other options ?"U.S? they are not even willing to share the core technology of F-35 with their allies,and india have no chance get F-35 before 2025 even if U.S was agree to sell
> 
> indian is playing no game &#65292;all the cards is in russia's hand
> 
> it's a tough decision for russia if it was 10 years ago.please check the deals between china and russia in the last ten years, It is obvious where china is going.and we never expect too much from them ever since china-soviet reapproached.



Dear Sir,

can you please wait for some days, i need to search some defense papers to back my statement, what i said is from China defense expert report written by chinese. As i will find that i will give the link to you.
1. So i have a very simple question for you, if India wont invest in the PAKFA , then cant india get it like MKI, so whats the point to become partner without TOT and waste money if India is guarantee to get it without investment like what china will get according to you.

Nothing trikcy here its very simple common sense why India invest in that. Offcourse india is special India is running their defense industry and many projects which have been died in the absence of India.


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## aimarraul

faithfulguy said:


> So I guess Russia won't sell this to China base on your remark.


it's resistance from inside of PLA,5TH gen jet is too important to the national security.count on russia=our lives count on them


faithfulguy said:


> So where is China going? If its obvious, how come I'm asking the question.


reducing arms imports


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## devd

aimarraul said:


> it's resistance from PLA,5TH gen jet is too important to the national security.count on russia=our lives count on them
> 
> reducing arms imports



I wont say reducing arm imports.China's poor IPR protection record coupled with a history of extensive plagiarism of Russian weaponry and associated technology followed by unauthorized sale to nations Moscow is not comfortable with is perhaps the more likely reason


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## aimarraul

devd said:


> I wont say reducing arm imports.China's poor IPR protection record coupled with a history of extensive plagiarism of Russian weaponry and associated technology followed by unauthorized sale to nations Moscow is not comfortable with is perhaps the more likely reason



cliche ,and i have to defend with same things:J-10?ZTZ-99?052C/054A?KJ2000&#65311;095/096?JL2/D31,DF21,DF15?please tell me which one we copied from russia,there are lots of others if you want me list for you.


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## devd

aimarraul said:


> cliche,and i have to defend with same things:J-10?ZTE-99?052C/054A?KJ2000&#65311;095/096?JL2/D31,DF21,DF15?please tell me which one we imported or copied from russia,there are lots of others if you want me list for you.



Dear friend , its not about defending you and me, Its about truth.


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## aimarraul

devd said:


> Dear friend , its not about defending you and me, Its about truth.



the truth is russian themselve never follow the contract ,they are living on soviet's fat,and always blackmail their customers.
are you suggesting J11?we bought the production line, upgrate ourselves,didn't sell to any other country


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## Moscow

aimarraul said:


> it means india invested huge $$$ in other's defence industry but can't get any core technology of PAK-FA.please don't tell me india is special for russia .......answer my question first, why was russia seeking for partners only after they finished the design of PAKFA?indian might say "we are not idiot",but please tell me " do india have any other options ?"U.S? they are not even willing to share the core technology of F-35 with their allies,and india have no chance get F-35 before 2025 even if U.S was agree to sell
> 
> indian is playing no game &#65292;all the cards is in russia's hand
> 
> it's a tough decision for russia if it was 10 years ago.please check the deals between china and russia in the last ten years, It is obvious where china is going.and we never expect too much from them ever since china-soviet reapproached.





ok sir although not adressed to me i will tell you some points
1. PAKFA & PAKDA was a soviet concept and not a russian one mig was the front runner and invested a lot of effort into R&d for the project even sukhoi followed with many tech demonstrators meanwhile the US too went ahead with the f-22 program the soviet collapse changed the whole picture the economy went down and there was no funding although many blueprints were ready with MIG and sukhoi they kept the new project on the backburner and went ahed with upgrading with their present fleet and selling it to make the revenue this continued till the whole of 90,s when by 2000 russian economy recovered and the need for a new aircraft arose both MIG and sukhoi PULLED OUT their old concepts and presented the same with new concepts and ideas still the russian government could not afford the full money needed mig meanwhile was in deep red and so the ball went to sukhoi they had the ideas blueprints for T-50 the t-50 design was not made in 2007 it was a old concept till they modified it and will keep on modifying it till 2015 when the final product emerges
mig meanwhile approached INDIA for funding and joint development of LMFS but russian government had already sanctioned the sukhoi T-50 so india was waiting while work on pakfa started on a slow scale later india joined the party with their share of funding and they work started on a more aggresive rate now india was already late they cant help it . it was not rusisan fault and not that hey dont want to share the designs were frozen for a long time when india was not even in the pic now when india is in they will get the full share wait till 2015 and see what india gets maybe another project with mig and india are already on the pipeline and loose talks and speculation india will get a lot more than even they expected and for russia it will the return to glory days

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## aimarraul

A.V. said:


> it was not rusisan fault and not that hey dont want to share the designs were frozen for a long time when india was not even in the pic now when india is in they will get the full share wait till 2015 and see what india gets maybe another project with mig and india are already on the pipeline and loose talks and speculation india will get a lot more than even they expected and for russia it will the return to glory days



good luck to both sides


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## jha

@A.V
that means LMFS is in pipeline...thought it was long shelved


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## Moscow

if you want i can give you a detail discussion on LMFS and prospects here
http://www.defenceforumDOTin/forum/...ontovoi-samolyot-lmfs-mig-ada-production.html

presently they are keeping the gates open if mig wins the mrca then LMFS for sure


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## Moscow

LOL sir he meant not an oil or gas pipeline he meant about LMFS fighter a joint MIG and ADA project


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## aimarraul

A.V. said:


> LOL sir he meant not an oil or gas pipeline he meant about LMFS fighter a joint MIG and ADA project


 
i already figured that out,sorry for my poor english


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## Moscow

sir whats switch between different names?
i changed my name just once from moscow to A.V thats it


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## booo

A.V. said:


> sir whats switch between different names?
> i changed my name just once from moscow to A.V thats it



ooh... I thought moscow left the forum.


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## aimarraul

A.V. said:


> sir whats switch between different names?
> i changed my name just once from moscow to A.V thats it



&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; ,&#1059; &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086; &#1076;&#1091;&#1088;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081;.


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## Moscow

ooh... I thought moscow left the forum.

why should i leave the forum, i have no problems but many of my old friends are gone it seems 

&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; ,&#1059; &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086; &#1076;&#1091;&#1088;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081;.

&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1077;&#1084;&#1072; &#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1077;&#1088;&#1091; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077;


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## sudhir007




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## aimarraul

A.V. said:


> ooh... I thought moscow left the forum.
> 
> why should i leave the forum, i have no problems but many of my old friends are gone it seems
> 
> &#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; ,&#1059; &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086; &#1076;&#1091;&#1088;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081;.
> 
> &#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1077;&#1084;&#1072; &#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1077;&#1088;&#1091; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077;



&#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1091; &#1074;&#1077;&#1097;&#1100; &#1071; &#1089;&#1083;&#1099;&#1096;&#1072;&#1083;, &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1050;&#1080;&#1090;&#1072;&#1081; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1086;&#1073;&#1088;&#1077;&#1083; mm92/mm93 &#1047;&#1085;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077; &#1083;&#1080; &#1042;&#1099; &#1080;&#1085;&#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;, &#1089;&#1074;&#1103;&#1079;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089; &#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;


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## Moscow

now that kind of grass on the first picture dosent grow on russia ,the photoshop artist needs perfection 
LOOOOOOOOOOOOl

but wish one day when the rea picture is out we can make a full collection of all the CGI and release it


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## Storm Force

PAK FA is the long term successor to the already hugely succesful Flanker Family. 

I believe SU35 & SU30MKI of Russian and indian air forces will be the best and last flankers designed. 

Many of the features first inducted on these flankers will appear on PAK FA. 

like 3D TVC and smart skins currently being evolved for mki/su35.... 

I believe Russ has been working on the T50 5th gen fighter for over a decade. 

It seems INDIA has simply gatecrashed the party. 

But good luk to india for investing their $billions on the final stages


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## Storm Force

This is only a photoshop artist impression of wat he thinks the pak fa looks like. 

BUT it does kind of remind us of the flanker family and since FGFA is a sukhoi project expect this could be similar to the real FGFA. 

Have to say it looks mighty fine too me.


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## Moscow

aimarraul said:


> &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1091; &#1074;&#1077;&#1097;&#1100; &#1071; &#1089;&#1083;&#1099;&#1096;&#1072;&#1083;, &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1050;&#1080;&#1090;&#1072;&#1081; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1086;&#1073;&#1088;&#1077;&#1083; mm92/mm93 &#1047;&#1085;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077; &#1083;&#1080; &#1042;&#1099; &#1080;&#1085;&#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;, &#1089;&#1074;&#1103;&#1079;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089; &#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;



&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1103;, &#1084;&#1086;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1090;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1091;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1080;&#1079; &#1095;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1091;&#1084;&#1086;&#1074;


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## Draft

Storm Force said:


> This is only a photoshop artist impression of wat he thinks the pak fa looks like.
> 
> BUT it does kind of remind us of the flanker family and since FGFA is a sukhoi project expect this could be similar to the real FGFA.
> 
> Have to say it looks mighty fine too me.



Whatever it may be....one thing is for sure, performance aside as it is debatable, the Russians make the best looking aircrafts.


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## saurabh

Draft said:


> Whatever it may be....one thing is for sure, performance aside as it is debatable, the Russians make the best looking aircrafts.



If pak-fa doesn't looks as good as this graphics shows, I will be very disappointed. This images have heightened my curiosity, and I am already a big fan of looks of su30


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## Moscow

pakfa wont look as good as the su-27 or 30 thats for sure the internal bay and geometry reduction have taken out the ook factor from a fully loaded fanker


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## saurabh

A.V. said:


> pakfa wont look as good as the su-27 or 30 thats for sure the internal bay and geometry reduction have taken out the ook factor from a fully loaded fanker



Boo for the stealth then!!


----------



## gogbot

Side my side of the Su-47 and T-50(concept)

Sukhoi family


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## sudhir007

*The first flight of the combat aircraft of the fifth generation takes place in the very near future - [OAK]*

Moscow, on December 28. /[PRAYM]- TASS. The first flight of the combat aircraft of the fifth generation takes place in the very near future, reported today to journalists the President OF [OAK] Aleksey Fedorov.

According to him, preparation for the first flight now very actively occurs. &#8220;I can confirm that the aircraft already of the beginnings of running through&#8221;, it noted. The first flight soon takes place. According to [A].[Fedorova], this aircraft - fundamentally new machine. &#8220;Therefore to clearly forecast date I did not begin&#8221;, he said.

Also [A].[Fedorov] it noted that &#8220;are examined several versions the places of the first flight - either Komsomol'sk-na-Amur or another place&#8221;.

Yahoo! Babel Fish - Text Translation and Web Page Translation


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## notorious_eagle

devd said:


> Dear friend , its not about defending you and me, Its about truth.



Well its not the truth, the reason why Arms Imports to China have declined over the years is because China has taken the high road. Instead of buying everything off the shelve, they have decided to invest that money in R&D and build their own weapon platforms. China has the second highest R&D budget in the world after the US, that speaks volumes of what the Chinese are intending to do. China is already an economic powerhouse but it lacks the military infrastructure needed to produce its own weapon supply, that is exactly what they are working on and i am sure in the next decade or two they will produce all their military needs.


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## Moscow

notorious_eagle said:


> Well its not the truth, the reason why Arms Imports to China have declined over the years is because China has taken the high road. Instead of buying everything off the shelve, they have decided to invest that money in R&D and build their own weapon platforms. China has the second highest R&D budget in the world after the US, that speaks volumes of what the Chinese are intending to do. China is already an economic powerhouse but it lacks the military infrastructure needed to produce its own weapon supply, that is exactly what they are working on and i am sure in the next decade or two they will produce all their military needs.




its not because of chinese R&D although i agree that they have imparted a big amount of money into it its about the arms blockage that the west has put on china all the chinese present day toys are due to their experience of working with various other partners during the past with israel for lavi with russia regarding the flankers,migs and no doubt hundreds of technical co-operation in the past
a true blue chinese world beating design is yet to come 
but thats my opinion its not about china but the bullet train is a great achievement thats what is called some achievement manufacturing a j-10 is not that big as far an independent opinion is concerned


----------



## sudhir007

Sukhoi Fighter Starting Flight Tests | AVIATION WEEK

The prototype of Sukhoi&#8217;s fifth-generation fighter, known as PAK-FA or T-50, has started taxi trials with an aim to make first flight early in January, industry sources say.

First taxi trials were successfully performed at Sukhoi&#8217;s Komsomol-on-Amur KnAAPO manufacturing facility, where prototypes are being built. The PAK-FA development is still classified, so images of the stealthy fighter are expected to appear only after the first flight.

Earlier this month deputy prime-minister Sergei Ivanov also confirmed to media that flight trials of the T-50 were expected to be underway by the beginning of January.


----------



## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> Sukhoi Fighter Starting Flight Tests | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> The prototype of Sukhois fifth-generation fighter, known as PAK-FA or T-50, has started taxi trials with an aim to make first flight early in January, industry sources say.
> 
> First taxi trials were successfully performed at Sukhois Komsomol-on-Amur KnAAPO manufacturing facility, where prototypes are being built. The PAK-FA development is still classified, so images of the stealthy fighter are expected to appear only after the first flight.
> 
> Earlier this month deputy prime-minister Sergei Ivanov also confirmed to media that flight trials of the T-50 were expected to be underway by the beginning of January.



Sudhir, Do you have any REAL photograph of it????????


----------



## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> Sudhir, Do you have any REAL photograph of it????????



yash original pic i have not see yet i check so many defence forum and Russian defence site but i have see but if you see my post # 347 Ist one look like real.....


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## sudhir007

*Outlines of PAK FA*

Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article:

1) Can hope for 10-15&#37; PAKFA advantage over F-22 due to two decades of tech. development.
2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack.


3) OLS-35 probably detects Raptor on 100 km distance.
4) PAKFA's AESA radar has probably 1526 modules with overall power 18 KWt. Range for a big air target &#8211; 400. TWS/A = 60/16.
5) Active antennas in the wings and tail are probable. 
6) OLS with 360 deg.
7) Backward attacking missiles.
8) Has up to 12 Air-to-air missiles (if compact) in internal placement.
9) Two internal bays for WLRAAMs and LRAAMs up to 700 kg each. + 2 bays for short range missiles.
10) While Raptor can have up to 8 missiles in the internal bays.
11) WLRAAM 'Izdelie 810' is MiG-31 R-33 derivative. 400 km.
12) LRAAM 'Izdelie-180PD' is air-breath R-77 derivative. 250 km.
13) 'Izdelie-180' &#8211; solid-fuel R-77 derivative 110-140 km. With active and passive radar, homing on jammer.
14) Short range AAM &#8211; 'Izdelie-300' or K-MD IR matrix, double range of homing.
15) Kh-58UShKE
16) Kh-35
17) 500 kg guided and unguided bombs and cassette munition.
18) Intrafuselage cathapults UVKU-50L &#8211; up to 300 kg, UVKU-50U &#8211; up to 700 kg.
19) Internal bays total weight 2.000 kg
20) With + external hardpoints &#8211; 6.000 kg.
21) GSh-30 30 mm autocannon.
22) According to the plans &#8211; 430 planes must be built for RuAF.
23) Probably price $80 mil.
24) Will replace 339 Su-27 and 300 MiG-31

*Defunct Humanity: Outlines of PAK FA*

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## aimarraul

http://forumimage.ru/show/1365742


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## saurabh

Such a level of secrecy seems meaning less. You are telling the world every bit about what it can do, but wouldn't release a single picture.
What info can be taken out by photographs. After all, the world knows its there and in few years, or may be months, would be seeing it too.

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## marcos98




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## Chanakyaa



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## sudhir007

Google Translate

Tests of the prototype of Russia's fighter of the fifth generation "T-50 being developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, will begin later this month, the number of western sites devoted to the novelties of aviation technology.

F-22. T-50 should become Russia's answer to American superistrebitelyu F-22.

T-50, also known by the acronym PAK FA, is being developed on the base of DB in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in conjunction with India's HAL, which hopes to replace the existing fleet of the Indian Mig-29 on T-50.


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## beckham




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## sudhir007

India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter

Late last year, a defence ministry delegation to Sukhoi&#8217;s flagship aircraft facility in Siberia became the first Indians to set eyes upon the next-generation fighter that is slated to form the backbone of the future Indian Air Force (IAF). In that first meeting, carefully choreographed by Sukhoi, the new fighter, standing on the tarmac waved a welcome to the Indians, moving all its control fins simultaneously.


The effect, recounts one member of that delegation, was electric. The senior IAF officer there walked silently up to the aircraft and touched it almost incredulously. This was the Sukhoi T-50, the first technology demonstrator of what India terms the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Senior defence ministry sources tell Business Standard that &#8212; after five years of haggling over the FGFA&#8217;s form, capabilities and work-share &#8212; a detailed contract on joint development is just around the corner.

The contract, which Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will sign with Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), will commit to building 250 fighters for the IAF and an equal number for Russia. The option for further orders will be kept open. HAL and UAC will be equal partners in a joint venture company, much like the Brahmos JV, that will develop and manufacture the FGFA.

The cost of developing the FGFA, which would be shared between both countries, will be $8-10 billion (Rs 37,000-45,000 crore). Over and above that, say IAF and defence ministry sources, each FGFA will cost Rs 400-500 crore.

Sukhoi&#8217;s FGFA prototype, which is expected to make its first flight within weeks, is a true stealth aircraft, almost invisible to enemy radar. According to a defence ministry official, &#8220;It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKI&#8217;s RCS of about 20 square metres.&#8221;

[That means that while a Su-30MKI would be as visible to enemy radar as a metal object 5 metres X 4 metres in dimension, the FGFA&#8217;s radar signature would be just 1/40th of that.]

A key strength of the 30-35 tonne FGFA would be data fusion; the myriad inputs from the fighter&#8217;s infrared, radar, and visual sensors would be electronically combined and fed to the pilots in easy-to-read form.

The FGFA partnership was conceived a decade ago, in 2000, when Sukhoi&#8217;s celebrated chief, Mikhail Pogosyan, invited a visiting Indian Air Force officer out to dinner in Moscow. Boris Yeltsin&#8217;s disastrous presidency had just ended, and Russia&#8217;s near bankruptcy was reflected in the run-down condition of a once-famous restaurant. But, as the IAF officer recounts, the vodka was flowing and Pogosyan was in his element, a string of jokes translated by a female interpreter.

Late that evening Pogosyan turned serious, switching the conversation to a secret project that, officially, did not even exist. Sukhoi, he confided to the IAF officer, had completed the design of a fifth generation fighter, as advanced as America&#8217;s F-22 Raptor, which is still the world&#8217;s foremost fighter. Russia&#8217;s economy was in tatters, but Sukhoi would develop its new, high-tech fighter if India partnered Russia, sharing the costs of developing the fighter at Sukhoi&#8217;s plant, Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation (KnAAPO).

Reaching out to India was logical for Russia. During the 1990s &#8212; when thousands of Russian military design bureaus starved for funds, and a bankrupt Moscow cancelled 1,149 R&D projects &#8212; India&#8217;s defence purchases had kept Russia&#8217;s defence industry alive, bankrolling the development of the Sukhoi-30 fighter; the Talwar-class stealth frigates; the Uran and Klub ship-borne missiles; and the MiG-21 upgrade.

But co-developing a fifth generation fighter is a different ball game, financially and technologically, and India&#8217;s MoD hesitated to sign up. Meanwhile enriched by hydrocarbon revenues, Moscow gave Sukhoi the green light to develop the FGFA, which Russia terms the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally Prospective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation).

Today, Russia is five years into the development of the FGFA. In November 2007, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement on co-developing the fighter, but it has taken two more years to agree upon common specifications, work shares in development, and in resolving issues like Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).

The prototype that Sukhoi has built is tailored to Russian Air Force requirements. But the IAF has different specifications and the JV will cater for both air forces, producing two different, but closely related, aircraft. For example, Russia wants a single-seat fighter; the IAF, happy with the Su-30MKI, insists upon a twin-seat fighter with one pilot flying and the other handling the sensors, networks and weaponry.

Negotiations have resolved even this fundamental conflict. India has agreed to buy a mix of about 50 single-seat and 200 twin-seat aircraft. Russia, in turn, will consider buying more twin-seat aircraft to use as trainers. But even as both countries narrow their differences, fresh challenges lie ahead: preparing India&#8217;s nascent aerospace industry for the high-tech job of developing and manufacturing a fifth-generation fighter.

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## gowthamraj

250 FGFA!. . . thats nice. and also our MOD says it was great RCS with 0.5sq.meter and invisibile to most radars


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## Tejas-MkII

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter 

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi January 6, 2010, 0:36 IST 

Scrutinising the Sukhoi Corporations work on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)  a project that India will soon sign up to co-develop  gives one an idea of Russias size, and its aerospace expertise. During daytime, in Moscow, the Sukhoi Design Bureau conceptualises FGFA components; by 10 pm the drawings are electronically transmitted over 5,000 kilometres to a manufacturing unit in Siberia. Here, at KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation)  seven time zones away  it is already 5 am next morning. Within a couple of hours, the drawings start being translated into aircraft production.

Having designed over 100 aircraft (including Indias Su-30MKI), built over 10,000 fighters, and with 50 world aviation records to its credit, Sukhoi understandably regards Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)  its partner-to-be in designing the FGFA  as very much the greenhorn.

But the newcomer wants its due. *Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HALs work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhois single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.*


THE FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER 
Cost of development $8-10 billion 
India's requirement *250 fighters* 
Russia's requirement *250 fighters *
Cost per aircraft $100 million 
Indian name FGFA 
Russian name PAK FA 


*India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). *Russia has traditionally built metallic aircraft; just 10 per cent of the Su-30MKI fuselage is titanium and composites. *The FGFAs fuselage, in contrast, will be 25 per cent titanium and 20 per cent composites. Russias expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by Indias experience in composites.*

With Indias work share almost finalised, the 2007 Russia-India Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to build the FGFA will soon evolve into a commercial contract between Russias United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and HAL. Ashok Baweja, until recently the chairman of HAL, told Business Standard: When HAL and UAC agree on terms, they will sign a General Contract. This will include setting up a JV to design the FGFA, and precise details about who will fund what.

This contract will mark a significant shift in the aeronautical relationship between India and Russia. For decades, HAL has played a technologically subordinate role, assembling and building fighters that Russia had designed. Now, forced to accept HAL as a design partner, the Russians have negotiated hard to limit its role.

The reason: Russia is sceptical about Indias design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russias ambassador to India, and an expert on Russias defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I dont know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HALwhat is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be Indias contribution? To be absolutely frank, I dont know.

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

With Sukhois ploughing on alone, Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju admitted to Business Standard: The longer India waits to join the project, the lesser will be our contribution. But, we are not sitting idle. Through the defence ministrys existing programmes [such as the Tejas LCA] we are building up our capabilities.

Most Indian officials agree that India has not lost much. Even if the FGFA makes its much-anticipated first flight this year, it is still at a preliminary stage of development. Ashok Baweja assessed in early 2009, The FGFAs first flight is just the beginning of the programme. My understanding is that the Russians are going ahead (with the test) to validate the FGFAs proof of concept (conceptual design). Whatever composite materials they have now, theyll use. But, because the composites will change the FGFA will keep evolving for a fairly long time.

A top ministry official estimates, It will take another 4-5 years to develop many of the FGFAs systems. Then, the aircraft will undergo at least 2000 hours of certification flying and, possibly, some reconfiguration. The FGFA should not be expected in service before 2017. And the twin-seat version may take a couple of years longer.

*With just a 25 per cent share of design, South Block policymakers still believe that the FGFA project is a vital step towards Indias emergence as a military aeronautical power. Developing 25 per cent of this fighter is far better than just transferring technology to build it in India, as we did with the Su-30MKI, *points out a defence ministry official.

Ashok Baweja puts the project in context. *India can only (develop the FGFA) by partnering with Russia. They have so much experience. Its not just the design you must also have materials maraging steel, titanium, composite alloys, and the industrial base to convert these into high-tech components like gyros, sensors and optics. The FGFA will give us important experience for building fighters hereafter*.


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## sudhir007

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

Scrutinising the Sukhoi Corporation&#8217;s work on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) &#8212; a project that India will soon sign up to co-develop &#8212; gives one an idea of Russia&#8217;s size, and its aerospace expertise. During daytime, in Moscow, the Sukhoi Design Bureau conceptualises FGFA components; by 10 pm the drawings are electronically transmitted over 5,000 kilometres to a manufacturing unit in Siberia. Here, at KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation) &#8212; seven time zones away &#8212; it is already 5 am next morning. Within a couple of hours, the drawings start being translated into aircraft production.

Having designed over 100 aircraft (including India&#8217;s Su-30MKI), built over 10,000 fighters, and with 50 world aviation records to its credit, Sukhoi understandably regards Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) &#8212; its partner-to-be in designing the FGFA &#8212; as very much the greenhorn.

But the newcomer wants its due. Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL&#8217;s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi&#8217;s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.

THE FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER
Cost of development $8-10 billion
India's requirement 250 fighters
Russia's requirement 250 fighters
Cost per aircraft $100 million
Indian name FGFA
Russian name PAK FA

India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Russia has traditionally built metallic aircraft; just 10 per cent of the Su-30MKI fuselage is titanium and composites. The FGFA&#8217;s fuselage, in contrast, will be 25 per cent titanium and 20 per cent composites. Russia&#8217;s expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by India&#8217;s experience in composites.

With India&#8217;s work share almost finalised, the 2007 Russia-India Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to build the FGFA will soon evolve into a commercial contract between Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and HAL. Ashok Baweja, until recently the chairman of HAL, told Business Standard: &#8220;When HAL and UAC agree on terms, they will sign a General Contract. This will include setting up a JV to design the FGFA, and precise details about who will fund what.&#8221;

This contract will mark a significant shift in the aeronautical relationship between India and Russia. For decades, HAL has played a technologically subordinate role, assembling and building fighters that Russia had designed. Now, forced to accept HAL as a design partner, the Russians have negotiated hard to limit its role.

The reason: Russia is sceptical about India&#8217;s design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia&#8217;s ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia&#8217;s defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, &#8220;I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don&#8217;t know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL&#8230;what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India&#8217;s contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don&#8217;t know.&#8221;

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

With Sukhoi&#8217;s ploughing on alone, Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju admitted to Business Standard: &#8220;The longer India waits to join the project, the lesser will be our contribution. But, we are not sitting idle. Through the defence ministry&#8217;s existing programmes [such as the Tejas LCA] we are building up our capabilities.&#8221;

Most Indian officials agree that India has not lost much. Even if the FGFA makes its much-anticipated first flight this year, it is still at a preliminary stage of development. Ashok Baweja assessed in early 2009, &#8220;The FGFA&#8217;s first flight is just the beginning of the programme. My understanding is that the Russians are going ahead (with the test) to validate the FGFA&#8217;s &#8220;proof of concept&#8221; (conceptual design). Whatever composite materials they have now, they&#8217;ll use. But, because the composites will change&#8230; the FGFA will keep evolving for a fairly long time.&#8221;

A top ministry official estimates, &#8220;It will take another 4-5 years to develop many of the FGFA&#8217;s systems. Then, the aircraft will undergo at least 2000 hours of certification flying and, possibly, some reconfiguration. The FGFA should not be expected in service before 2017. And the twin-seat version may take a couple of years longer.&#8221;

With just a 25 per cent share of design, South Block policymakers still believe that the FGFA project is a vital step towards India&#8217;s emergence as a military aeronautical power. &#8220;Developing 25 per cent of this fighter is far better than just transferring technology to build it in India, as we did with the Su-30MKI,&#8221; points out a defence ministry official.

Ashok Baweja puts the project in context. &#8220;India can only (develop the FGFA) by partnering with Russia. They have so much experience. It&#8217;s not just the design&#8230; you must also have materials&#8230; maraging steel, titanium, composite alloys, and the industrial base to convert these into high-tech components like gyros, sensors and optics. The FGFA will give us important experience for building fighters hereafter.&#8221;


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## Chanakyaa

This is Good for MCA.
25&#37; PAK FA Involvement and Lessons frm LCA Programme means Indians will have a good Experience when finally MCA is Developed.


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## saurabh

Wikipedia says PAK-FA will have artificial intellect. Can some body shade some light on it, what is meant by AI for a plane? Will it provide better situational awareness, or something like that?


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## Kinshuk

As one of the threads related to India's role in the development of PAK FA(25%) has been closed due to derail, we can continue the same here. 

Thanks.


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## UchihaCG

saurabh said:


> Wikipedia says PAK-FA will have artificial intellect. Can some body shade some light on it, what is meant by AI for a plane? Will it provide better situational awareness, or something like that?



AI is incorporated in the current MKI's we have.

- Autopilot (for some conditions)
& There is a speech system so the pilot will get notified about x and y, etc.. (kind of like a notification..... missile incoming.... check fuel... etc)

These are only basic in the MKI.
I'm guessing PAKFA will be having more advanced avionics and a better AI?

Haven't read much, except about the speech system of the MKI.


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## sudhir007

*Roy's Russian Aircraft Resource*

The Indian air force plans to buy 250 fifth generation fighters. The project will be developed using the joint efforts of Indian and Russian firms. This aircraft is known as the PAK FA in Russia, and in India it has received the designation FGFA ((Latin letters)).

The Indian business newspaper Business Standard ((in English)) reported this news referring to a source in the military department. The PAK FA made its first taxi tests on the Komsomol'sk-on-Amur aircraft plant's runway at the end of last year. Now the Indian aircraft building corporation Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) ((all in English)) and the Russian Unified Aircraft Building Corporation (OAK) have come down to the wire in the preparation of an agreement for joint work on the future aircraft and its manufacture for the air forces of the two countries.

India and Russia signed an intergovernmental agreement on the joint development of the fifth generation fighters in November 2007, but another 2 years were needed to work out some positions, including questions of intellectual property rights. The head of the Sukhoy-MiG company, Mikhail Pogosyan, declared for the first time in February 2009 at the aerospace salon at India's Bangalore that such work was possible. However, he dodged explanations of the future alliance's details. Now it has become known that the cost of the joint development of the 30 - 35-tonne fighter will be 8 - 10 billion dollars. The program's financing will be realized on a parity basis. It is planned to offer the new aircraft to customers for a cost of 85 - 100 million dollars.

HAL will receive 25 percent in the airplane's development. This company's role will consist of the creation of the aircraft computer, navigational system and the majority of the cockpit's displays. India also will be sharing experience in the creation of composites used in the creation of the Indian Tejas lightweight combat airplanes with Russia. The fifth generation fighter's fuselage will consist of 25 percent titanium and 20 percent composites. As the Indian military note, an "amazing airplane" should be the result. Its effective reflective surface will be equal to only 0.5 square meters (in comparison with 20 square meters for the Su-30MKI). This means that if the Su-30MKI is seen on radar as a metallic object with a size of 5 by 4 meters, then the reflection on a radar screen for the new fighter will be 40 times less ((1/40th of that)). The Indian air force plans to receive the first such fighters in 2017. The Russian expect it 2 years earlier.


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## gowthamraj

Anybody know which month the first flight takes place? I eagerly waiting


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## gogbot

gowthamraj said:


> Anybody know which month the first flight takes place? I eagerly waiting



Its supposed to January.

May be they puch it back again.


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## gowthamraj

gogbot said:


> Its supposed to January.
> 
> May be they puch it back again.



thanks i expecet it in jan


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## Chanakyaa

gowthamraj said:


> Anybody know which month the first flight takes place? I eagerly waiting



The Bird is out Thats for sure... But the flight may take 1-2 months depending the level of preparation.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## gogbot

gowthamraj said:


> thanks i expecet it in jan





XiNiX said:


> The Bird is out Thats for sure... But the flight may take 1-2 months depending the level of preparation.



Hey as a Fan boy i am hoping there are 2 prototype's

one in India and One Russia.

And they going to test them both on republic day

That would be epic if it were true


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## booo

The latest is the news about taxi trials. no updates after that... I guess it was supposed to take to the skies this month.


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## Free Tibet

*PAK-FA will fly this month!*

The prospective fighter jet will make its maiden flight soon, a source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur told Interfax-AVN on Monday.

The date of the maiden flight of the fifth-generation fighter jet will be named this week. The flight will take place in January, he said.

The Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant is intensively testing the plane on the ground, he said.

The jet has had a number of runway trials, which tested the engines, brakes and the control systems, the source said.

The runway trials were successful, which gave us hope for making the maiden flight on time, he said.

The new jet of the Sukhoi company will be an intellectual product with multiple functions, capacity to destroy air-and land-based targets at anytime of the day and under any weather conditions, super- maneuverability, optical, infra-red and radar stealth and ability to take off and land from runways of 300-400 meters.

Experts claims the plane will make long flights at supersonic speeds with multiple refueling in the air. It will carry new electronic systems and have a highly automatic flight control network.


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## gogbot

Free Tibet said:


> *PAK-FA will fly this month!*
> 
> The prospective fighter jet will make its maiden flight soon, a source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur told Interfax-AVN on Monday.
> 
> The date of the maiden flight of the fifth-generation fighter jet will be named this week. The flight will take place in January, he said.
> 
> The Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant is intensively testing the plane on the ground, he said.
> 
> The jet has had a number of runway trials, which tested the engines, brakes and the control systems, the source said.
> 
> The runway trials were successful, which gave us hope for making the maiden flight on time, he said.
> 
> The new jet of the Sukhoi company will be an intellectual product with multiple functions, capacity to destroy air-and land-based targets at anytime of the day and under any weather conditions, super- maneuverability, optical, infra-red and radar stealth and ability to take off and land from runways of 300-400 meters.
> 
> Experts claims the plane will make long flights at supersonic speeds with multiple refueling in the air. It will carry new electronic systems and have a highly automatic flight control network.



Republic day, say republic day


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## xenon

Hey guys,

When this Bird will show itself...... photo dekhne ke liye taras gaya hoon!!!!

I think they have sold the rights of photograph to "Hello magazine " like that of Suri Cruise.


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## Kinshuk

xenon said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> When this Bird will show itself...... photo dekhne ke liye taras gaya hoon!!!!
> 
> I think they have sold the rights of photograph to "Hello magazine " like that of Suri Cruise.



Same here, It is high times now, i read about it when i was in graduation, I am in MBA now lol!


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## beckham

*Guys, I was browsing &#1050;&#1085;&#1040;&#1040;&#1055;&#1054; site, i noticed a new tab,*

http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/index.wbp#

*There isn't any link that leads to article,I think they are getting ready to post something.........

So, I used Google translate to translate the tab label and found....* 


&#1055;AK &#1092;A = PAK FA










*Looks like this is it,*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sreekimpact

WOW!!!!!!!!!Finally its Out!!!!!


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## ASQ-1918

The above pictures is not how it is going to be.

There is no info what so ever on how it will look like.


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## beckham

ASQ-1918 said:


> The above pictures is not how it is going to be.
> 
> There is no info what so ever on how it will look like.



Just sharing what I found !


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## amarnath

There are already 2 prototype built, FGFA and PakFA. But can anyone give info when its gonna really come into spot light?


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## dextercath96

Ideal for camping or emergency power outages, the
Sun Power Port is a portable generator that when used
to its full potential will pay for itself in less than two years.
In one day of full sunshine, the solar panel easily charges
the 12 volt (standard automobile) battery. An inverter
changes the DC current to AC. From there the electrical energy
is easily accessible to most standard 110 volt small
appliances used in North America. What are the advantages of a solar generator? If you don't know, check out sunpowerport.com. The featured generator will run most small electrical appliances. It is great for camping or emergency backup. No noise. No fumes. For more details see sunpowerport.com


----------



## baker

dextercath96 said:


> Ideal for camping or emergency power outages, the
> Sun Power Port is a portable generator that when used
> to its full potential will pay for itself in less than two years.
> In one day of full sunshine, the solar panel easily charges
> the 12 volt (standard automobile) battery. An inverter
> changes the DC current to AC. From there the electrical energy
> is easily accessible to most standard 110 volt small
> appliances used in North America. What are the advantages of a solar generator? If you don't know, check out sunpowerport.com. The featured generator will run most small electrical appliances. It is great for camping or emergency backup. No noise. No fumes. For more details see sunpowerport.com




mods please take care of this user


----------



## amarnath

dextercath96 said:


> Ideal for camping or emergency power outages, the
> Sun Power Port is a portable generator that when used
> to its full potential will pay for itself in less than two years.
> In one day of full sunshine, the solar panel easily charges
> the 12 volt (standard automobile) battery. An inverter
> changes the DC current to AC. From there the electrical energy
> is easily accessible to most standard 110 volt small
> appliances used in North America. What are the advantages of a solar generator? If you don't know, check out sunpowerport.com. The featured generator will run most small electrical appliances. It is great for camping or emergency backup. No noise. No fumes. For more details see sunpowerport.com


 Ok I think I get it... ah, no I dont


----------



## sancho

beckham said:


> *Guys, I was browsing &#1050;&#1085;&#1040;&#1040;&#1055;&#1054; site, i noticed a new tab,*
> 
> http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/index.wbp#
> 
> *There isn't any link that leads to article,I think they are getting ready to post something.........
> 
> So, I used Google translate to translate the tab label and found....*
> 
> 
> &#1055;AK &#1092;A = PAK FA


Correct me if I'm wrong, but how could one use TVC in horizontal directions, if the fighter looks like this?


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## Novice09

gogbot said:


> Republic day, say republic day



Sorry for disappointing


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## gogbot

Novice09 said:


> Sorry for disappointing



sad face


----------



## Chanakyaa

sreekimpact said:


> WOW!!!!!!!!!Finally its Out!!!!!



No its Photoshopped Brother of F22.


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## Dark Angel

Cheer up gogbot ....The day it will fly and we see it i am sure we will have a bash 

*Some more concepts ........*


----------



## beckham

*This is my favorite......!!! *


----------



## Iggy

dextercath96 said:


> Ideal for camping or emergency power outages, the
> Sun Power Port is a portable generator that when used
> to its full potential will pay for itself in less than two years.
> In one day of full sunshine, the solar panel easily charges
> the 12 volt (standard automobile) battery. An inverter
> changes the DC current to AC. From there the electrical energy
> is easily accessible to most standard 110 volt small
> appliances used in North America. What are the advantages of a solar generator? If you don't know, check out sunpowerport.com. The featured generator will run most small electrical appliances. It is great for camping or emergency backup. No noise. No fumes. For more details see sunpowerport.com



I thought he was talking about the features of PAK-FA


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## beckham

XiNiX said:


> No its Photoshopped Brother of F22.



I wonder why &#1050;&#1085;&#1040;&#1040;&#1055;&#1054; (largest aircraft-manufacturing company in Russia) would place a photoshopped F-22 in there official website labeling it as PAK-FA....!!  

*http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/25061-indo-russian-pak-fa-fgfa-26.html#post631112*


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## Dark Angel

seiko said:


> I thought he was talking about the features of PAK-FA



*Me too .................*


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## Dark Angel

beckham said:


> I wonder why &#1050;&#1085;&#1040;&#1040;&#1055;&#1054; (largest aircraft-manufacturing company in Russia) would place a photoshopped F-22 in there official website labeling it as PAK-FA....!!
> 
> *http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/25061-indo-russian-pak-fa-fgfa-26.html#post631112*



*When i saw the link beck i was wondering the same thing yaar *


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## Chanakyaa

beckham said:


> I wonder why &#1050;&#1085;&#1040;&#1040;&#1055;&#1054; (largest aircraft-manufacturing company in Russia) would place a photoshopped F-22 in there official website labeling it as PAK-FA....!!
> 
> *http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/25061-indo-russian-pak-fa-fgfa-26.html#post631112*



Speculations my friend.
Is there any one who has not seen a pic of the yet to be discovered "Aliens" ?

Its like "Probable" design. Moreover as far as i remember its Artistic Impression never given any Serious consideration.


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## RPK

:india:
http://sukhoi.org/news/smi/?id=3128
*confermation of flight testing*
traslation
18/01/2010
The rise in the air the fifth generation fighter will take place before the end of January

Interfax-AVN

Finalized the first flight of long-term aviation system Frontal Aviation (PAK FA), told Interfax-AVN on Monday a source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

"The exact date of recovery in air the fifth generation fighter will be determined during this week. The very first flight is planned to meet before the end of January," - said the agency.

According to him, now at the airport of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KnAAPO) conducted extensive ground testing of the first flight model of PAK FA.

"Already implemented a number of runs a fighter for the runway, during which the aircraft engines are tested at various operating modes, braking system, control system and a fighter, etc." - the source said.

According to him, "no failures during the runs was not, which gives hope that the timing of lifting fighter in the air will not be transferred."

Earlier, the president, chairman of United Aircraft Corporation Alexei Fedorov told that we are considering two options for the first flight of the fifth generation fighter. One - in Moscow, based on the Flight Research Institute named after Gromov, the second - in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. "There are pros and cons of one and the second option, however the process of preparing the first flight is moving fast enough" - he said.

Under development by Sukhoi Aviation Complex promising Frontal Aviation has a high intellectualization side. Characteristic features of the PAK FA are also multi-functionality (ability to solve problems defeat both air and ground targets in all weather and time of day); maneuverability, low visibility in the optical, infrared and radio wavelengths, the ability to take off and land using land runway 300 -400 meters.

According to prognoses, the fifth-generation combat aircraft will be able to make long flights at supersonic speeds with multiple refueling in the air, have a qualitatively new electronics and maximum automation of the flight.

Among other qualities of combat aircraft - multi-use weapons, the possibility to simultaneously attack multiple air targets and ground targets with high precision weapons, powerful airborne defense, high efficiency and safety.

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## RPK

21.01.10 ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ?? 29 ?????? - ??????? ???????
 FIRST FLIGHT PAKFA HELD UNTIL 29 JANUARY

The magazine Asas ( &#171;Wings, January 20, 2010) published an article that the first flight PAKFA inevitable and will be held in the near future. 

Industry sources said Russia's defense industry, which first flew fighter Sukhoi T-50 (PAKFA) may occur in the period until next Friday, January 29. :twizt:

In December 2009 the aircraft was delivered to the airfield KNAAPO for testing and has already conducted ground running, where the tested control system, brakes and other elements. Interestingly, the prototype was delivered to the KNAAPO to the Far East of Russia, although traditionally the first flights of prototype aircraft with the 30-ies of the past century, traditionally held on the test airfield in Zhukovsky near Moscow. 

"Transfer" of the aircraft KNAAPO can be regarded as a desire to hide from the eyes of a prototype of the world press, at least during the first flights. 

To date, despite numerous speculations on the appearance of a fighter, not a single reliable picture of T-50, not even the image model airplane

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## Kinshuk

rpraveenkum said:


> 21.01.10 ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ?? 29 ?????? - ??????? ???????
> FIRST FLIGHT PAKFA HELD UNTIL 29 JANUARY
> 
> The magazine Asas ( «Wings, January 20, 2010) published an article that the first flight PAKFA inevitable and will be held in the near future.
> 
> Industry sources said Russia's defense industry, which first flew fighter Sukhoi T-50 (PAKFA) may occur in the period until next Friday, January 29. :twizt:
> 
> In December 2009 the aircraft was delivered to the airfield KNAAPO for testing and has already conducted ground running, where the tested control system, brakes and other elements. Interestingly, the prototype was delivered to the KNAAPO to the Far East of Russia, although traditionally the first flights of prototype aircraft with the 30-ies of the past century, traditionally held on the test airfield in Zhukovsky near Moscow.
> 
> "Transfer" of the aircraft KNAAPO can be regarded as a desire to hide from the eyes of a prototype of the world press, at least during the first flights.
> 
> To date, despite numerous speculations on the appearance of a fighter, not a single reliable picture of T-50, not even the image model airplane



An aa bhi jaa PAK FA. Itna time toh ladkiyan bhi nahi leti.


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Kinshuk said:


> An aa bhi jaa PAK FA. Itna time toh ladkiyan bhi nahi leti.



^^^

Bhai Sahab ... Larkiyon ko Laser guided bomb, BVR, Sleath tech, Engine etc etc nahi hota na isliyeh time lagta hai ...

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## Kinshuk

AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer said:


> ^^^
> 
> Bhai Sahab ... Larkiyon ko Laser guided bomb, BVR, Sleath tech, Engine etc etc nahi hota na isliyeh time lagta hai ...



kya baat kar rahe ho? Tumne kabhi laser guided bomb nahi dekhe? Aur unka engine toh bohot powerful hota hai, Aur hum unhe BVR se dekh lete hain. lollllllllll

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## Thomas

rpraveenkum said:


> 21.01.10 ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ?? 29 ?????? - ??????? ???????
> FIRST FLIGHT PAKFA HELD UNTIL 29 JANUARY
> 
> The magazine Asas ( «Wings, January 20, 2010) published an article that the first flight PAKFA inevitable and will be held in the near future.
> 
> Industry sources said Russia's defense industry, which first flew fighter Sukhoi T-50 (PAKFA) may occur in the period until next Friday, January 29. :twizt:
> 
> In December 2009 the aircraft was delivered to the airfield KNAAPO for testing and has already conducted ground running, where the tested control system, brakes and other elements. Interestingly, the prototype was delivered to the KNAAPO to the Far East of Russia, although traditionally the first flights of prototype aircraft with the 30-ies of the past century, traditionally held on the test airfield in Zhukovsky near Moscow.
> 
> *"Transfer" of the aircraft KNAAPO can be regarded as a desire to hide from the eyes of a prototype of the world press, at least during the first flights. *
> 
> To date, despite numerous speculations on the appearance of a fighter, not a single reliable picture of T-50, not even the image model airplane



They would be better served to release the pics for propaganda purposes. I'm sure U.S. intelligence already has close up pics of it from it's taxi run.


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## Robo

Thomas said:


> They would be better served to release the pics for propaganda purposes. I'm sure U.S. intelligence already has close up pics of it from it's taxi run.



might be might be not, if they r not using blind spots , ur smoke screen ,


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## Dark Angel

*Hey guys have u seen this video ................*

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## RPK

?????????? ????????. ????? - ??

- It is said that this Thursday will be the first flight of Fifth-Generation Fighter. Meanwhile in the U.S. the prototype heavy fighter YF-22 took off back in 1991. Now the U.S. Air Force has more than a hundred front-line F-22s. Why are we so far behind the U.S.?

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rate of fifth-generation fighter development in both countries were generally comparable. The prototype aircraft developed by Russia's Mikoyan firm (product 1.44) was ready to fly in 1994-1995, but due to lack of financial resources has made two flights in 1999 alone, and the programme was discontinued.

In conditions of chronic under-funding of Russia's military-industrial complex, it was not possible to create such a complex weapons system, like fifth-generation fighter, equal to U.S. standards. In fact, the normal budget Financing project was open only in 2005-2006, but up to this point work was carried out mainly at Sukhoi's own expense. From this point of view, if we can assume that the real hard work on the PAK-FA programme began only in mid-decade.

In addition, by following the Americans we can minimize the conceptual and technical risks, to avoid the mistakes that were committed by the leader of the race. Also note that Russia remains the only country, except the United States, with a capability to create a fifth generation fighter.
In the World there'll probably be only three such states- the United States, Russia and China.

- Why was Sukhoi declared the winner of the 5th gen fighter contest when MiG, as you said, already had a flying prototype of this aircraft?

In 2002, the most important factor in choosing "Sukhoi" as the winner was the ability of the OKB to begin work on the PAK FA with the company's own funds. Sukhoi beat "MiG" not only in the financial sense, but also, most importantly, had a much more impressive capacity to innovate. But now in the United Aircraft Building Corporation will open prospects for subcontracting the PAK FA programme.

-The U.S., along with the heavyweight F-22, has created an easier and cheaper mass-produced fifth-generation fighter- F-35. Why has Russia gone towards the creation of a heavy machine, but not a cheap lightweight fighter?

This is quite justified. Russia and our partner on this project, India - are countries with vast territories, and in any case, we need a powerful machine with a big heavy capability and increased radius of action.

- It is considered that the distinctive features of a fifth generation fighter - are low profile RCS, radar with active phased array antenna, supersonic cruising speed and maneuverability. Will PAK FA have all these attributes?


Yes. The aerodynamic configuration of PAK FA is slightly more conservative compared to the F-22, but without a doubt, measures have been implemented on the aircraft to reduce it's visibility in all (not just radar) physical fields. For the PAK FA is being developed not just a radar with an active antenna, but an entire multi-purpose integrated radar system, which will contain five built-in antennas.

-When the plane finally actually appears, won't it will be "golden"? So expensive that it will not find buyers. What is your prediction: How many of these machines are the Russian and the Indian Air Forces planning to buy?

Based on the economic opportunities in Russia and the needs of its air force, we can assume that prior to 2025-2030 we should have to buy from between 150 to 200 fifth-generation fighters. Today, however, to accurately predict this, is of course, impossible, because the real economic situation for Russia in 2020 is unknown.

The Indian Air Force, I think, will order a minimum of 200-250 such aircraft, and India's the rate of economic growth remain at levels of the current decade, that is about 7-8&#37;, we can hope for larger purchases.

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## RPK




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## booo

One more day to go...


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## jha

are they really serious about the date...????


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## no_name

Can't wait to see the real pictures of PAK-FA, I'm starting to get bored with just F-22 and F-35 pics.


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## sathruvinasakh

hehehe 
just hope they dont show you a repainted berkut


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## booo

First flight of fifth-generation fighter was appointed on January 28

First flight of a promising fifth-generation fighter PAK FA scheduled for Thursday, January 28, reports "Interfax" referring to the Chief of the aviation safety of the Armed Forces Minister Sergei Baynetova.
Reported earlier that the first flight of the new aircraft flew from the airfield aviation production association "Dry" in Komsomolsk-on-Amur to the end of January 2010, but the exact date was not mentioned.

Bynet told that at the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, has already begun preflight tests of a fighter, on which he is present. The exact time of the planned take-off fighter interlocutor "Interfax news agency did not specify.

The first date of the flight PAK FA (promising aviation complex of Frontal Aviation, also known as T-50 and article 701,) have repeatedly changed. So in December 2009, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov stated that the new fighter to rise into the air before the end of the year. Later, it was reported that the first flight tests fighter moved to early 2010, but the exact date has not been named.

According to official figures, PAK FA will be multi-role fighters, differing maneuverability and low visibility in the optical, infrared and radar wavelengths. In addition, the aircraft can take off and landing on runways length of 300-400 meters. It is assumed that the first T-50 military aircraft will be transferred to Russia in 2015.

----------------------------------


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## booo

28.01.10 04:00
Fifth-generation fighter for the first time to rise into the air on Thursday Komsomolsk-na-Amur. January 28. Interfax-Far East - the fifth-generation fighter will make its first flight on Thursday from the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, told Interfax-Far East "Chief of the aviation safety of the Armed Forces Minister Sergei Bynet.

"*At present I am on the pre-flight tests. The first flight is scheduled for today*", - said S. Bynet.

He did not specify a particular time of takeoff fighter.

Source: Interfax


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## chantpapipart2

Sukhoi will test-fly by the end of January a new fifth generation jet fighter that aims to challenge the United States for technical superiority, an aviation industry source said Wednesday.

Ground testing of the airplane was successful. Its technologically ready for the first test flights, which will be held in the next two or three days, depending on the weather, a source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur told Interfax on Wednesday.

The plane, known as the PAK FA, is being tested at an airfield in the far eastern city, the source said.

The warplane is seen as Moscows challenge to the U.S.-built Raptor. The F-22 Raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997. Fifth-generation jets are invisible to radar, have advanced onboard flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.

Sukhoi is Russias largest exporter of military planes, accounts for a quarter of Russias annual arms sales and has a portfolio of foreign orders worth billions of dollars. India is its biggest client.

A Sukhoi spokesman told Reuters that the plane would fly in the near future.

Government and industry officials had said the fighter would make its first flight in 2009. 

Analysts have said it could be at least a decade between the first flight of the Russian prototype and the start of commercial production.


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## gowthamraj

pak-fa going to fly today?


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## Supersonic26

i can't breath due to excitement. World most powerful jet fighter taking into the sky. My all best wishes with the makers and contributers of PAK-FA aka FGFA.


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## booo

Lenta.ru: News: Lenta.ru: &#206;&#240;&#243;&#230;&#232;&#229;: &#207;&#229;&#240;&#226;&#251;&#233; &#239;&#238;&#235;&#229;&#242; &#240;&#238;&#241;&#241;&#232;&#233;&#241;&#234;&#238;&#227;&#238; &#232;&#241;&#242;&#240;&#229;&#225;&#232;&#242;&#229;&#235;&#255; &#239;&#255;&#242;&#238;&#227;&#238; &#239;&#238;&#234;&#238;&#235;&#229;&#237;&#232;&#255; &#238;&#242;&#235;&#238;&#230;&#232;&#235;&#232; &#237;&#224; &#228;&#229;&#237;&#252;
28/01/2010, Thursday, 09:36:16
Updated 28/01/2010 at 08:18:36

*First flight of fifth-generation fighter was postponed for a day*
First flight of fifth-generation fighter delayed. It is reported by Interfax, citing a source in the headquarters of the Far East Air Force and Air Defense Association. *The reasons for the test date was moved were not disclosed.*

It was planned that the first flight of the fighter will be held on Thursday, January 28. This, in particular, stated the Chief of the aviation safety of the Armed Forces Minister Sergei Bynet. The official told Interfax, *the plane ready for takeoff, "but it was decided to postpone the flight for tomorrow."*

Earlier it was reported that the first flight of PAK FA (promising aviation complex of Frontal Aviation, also known as T-50 and article 701) will make the airfield aviation production association "Dry" in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. At the end of December 2009 it became known that tests fighters have already begun. It was reported that the plane made the first jogging at the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

In September 2009, Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said that the Armed Forces are planning to purchase the fifth generation fighter in 2015. He did not specify how many of these aircraft will Russia's Air Force.

OKB Sukhoi is developing a multifunctional fifth generation fighter with a late 90-ies. It is reported that the new aircraft will be equipped with high-precision weapons. He can hit both air and ground targets regardless of weather and time of day. Also, the fighter will differ maneuverability and low visibility in the optical, infrared and radar wavelengths.

Official data on the technical characteristics of the new fighter were not disclosed. It is assumed that the aircraft will be able to reach a maximum speed of over 2 thousand kilometers per hour, and range PAK FA will be 5.5 thousand kilometers. Also reported that the fighter can take off and land using a runway length of 300-400 meters.


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## Kinshuk

is it in the news?


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## Kinshuk

russia today????


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## satishkumarcsc

> Earlier it was reported that the first flight of PAK FA (promising aviation complex of Frontal Aviation, also known as T-50 and article 701) will make the airfield aviation production* association "Dry" in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.* At the end of December 2009 it became known that tests fighters have already begun. It was reported that the plane made the first jogging at the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> "Dry" LMAO.....I never thought they will translate Sukhoi literally....


----------



## Novice09

Kinshuk said:


> is it in the news?



New Sukhoi Fighter to Fly This Week | Business | The Moscow Times
*
New Sukhoi Fighter to Fly This Week *
28 January 2010
Combined Reports

Sukhoi will test-fly by the end of January a new fifth generation jet fighter that aims to challenge the United States for technical superiority, an aviation industry source said Wednesday.

Ground testing of the airplane was successful. Its technologically ready for the first test flights, which will be held in the next two or three days, depending on the weather, a source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur told Interfax on Wednesday.

The plane, known as the PAK FA, is being tested at an airfield in the far eastern city, the source said.

The warplane is seen as Moscows challenge to the U.S.-built Raptor. The F-22 Raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997. Fifth-generation jets are invisible to radar, have advanced onboard flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.

Sukhoi is Russias largest exporter of military planes, accounts for a quarter of Russias annual arms sales and has a portfolio of foreign orders worth billions of dollars. India is its biggest client.

A Sukhoi spokesman told Reuters that the plane would fly in the near future.

Government and industry officials had said the fighter would make its first flight in 2009. 

*Analysts have said it could be at least a decade between the first flight of the Russian prototype and the start of commercial production.*


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## booo

It was supposed to be today. but they postponed the test flight by one day. so it would be tomorrow. and few hours after the first flight they will release the official photos and videos to the press. I am just counting...


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## Novice09

booo said:


> It was supposed to be today. but they postponed the test flight by one day. so it would be tomorrow. and few hours after the first flight they will release the official photos and videos to the press. I am just counting...



As far as I think, they aren't going to provide any official photos and videos to the press. But if they provide such stuff, it will put the defense forums on fire

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## booo

*Russian 5th-generation fighter to perform maiden flight Jan 29.*

10:0728/01/2010

Russia is expected to hold the first test of its fifth-generation fighter on Friday, a source at Russia's largest aircraft building enterprise said on Thursday.

"The [test] flight was initially scheduled for Thursday, but has been postponed," the source at the Gagarin KNAAPO company, a subsidiary of Russia's major aircraft holding Sukhoi, said.

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor (so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter aircraft) and the F-35 Lightning II, but has yet to take to the skies.

The PAK FA is believed to possess advanced avionics, stealth capability, a ferry range of 4,000 to 5,500 km, and endurance of 3.3 hrs; it is armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. Russian Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin earlier said the combat aircraft would enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

MOSCOW, January 28 (RIA Novosti)

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## booo

Flying Lab has tested the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft

18:57 27/01/2010 

MOSCOW, January 27 - RIA Novosti. The first flight of a flying laboratory Su-27M with a engine designed for the fifth generation fighter aircraft, successfully completed on January 21 in Zhukovsky near Moscow, said on Wednesday the press office of Saturn, the company-developer of the engine. 

"The flight lasted 45 minutes and was successful, the comments to the engine was not. At the commencement of the flight engine, including a brand new automatic control system has taken a series of ad hoc and endurance tests. Upon completion of the required amount of flying laboratory tests obtained at the conclusion First flight of the fifth generation with a new engine, "- said in a statement. 

Fifth-generation fighter, which in Russia is also called a promising frontline aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA), developed with the 1990's. 

New aviation complex will have several unique features: clock, all weather and stealth applications, low visibility and long-term supersonic flight. The aircraft will get a new on-board navigation station and a highly automated system of defense. 

Representatives of the military-industrial complex said that tests of the new fighter will have to begin before the end of this year, but in early December, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said that the trials would begin in 2010. 

Plane at the end of last year made his first jog in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. 

Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said earlier that the fifth-generation fighter will begin to act in Russia's troops in 2015. 

JSC "Scientific-Production Association" Saturn "- engine manufacturing company that specializes in developing, manufacturing and after sales service of gas turbine engines for military and civil aircraft, ships of the Navy, power generation and gas pumping units. The company is part of the new engine of the Joint Corporation (JDC) - 100 per cent subsidiary of a corporation specialized Oboronprom engine-management assets.


----------



## sancho

Novice09 said:


> As far as I think, they aren't going to provide any official photos and videos to the press. But if they provide such stuff, it will put the defense forums on fire


I would be happy just with a report that its flying now, spypics will follow soon and then we could have a better guess of its capabilities.


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## Super Falcon

if FGFA is fifth gen fighter jet than pak fa is not is that u want to say


----------



## sancho

Super Falcon said:


> if FGFA is fifth gen fighter jet than pak fa is not is that u want to say


 No, just that we can have a better guess if it's really that stealthy as claimed, or that agile, how many weapons it carries and so on. Btw, FGFA will be a variant of Pak Fa, so if Pak Fa is not 5. gen, FGFA wouldn't either right?


----------



## sudhir007

Google Translate

Tests fighter T-50 prevented the bad weather


The reason for the abolition of tests of modern fighter T-50 produced in Russia could serve as a bad weather, said the channel "Russia 24". Official representatives of staff associations, Far Eastern Air Force and Air Defense has not given any comment on why the plane is not a test flight.

It is possible that the test flight, which was postponed on Friday, may also not take place due to bad weather conditions. Recall that a ground test of the promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) - ultra-modern fighter aircraft - has already passed. Flight copy of the PAK FA is being developed by United Aircraft Corporation, to replace such models as the MiG-29 and Su-27, as well as a worthy counterpart of the American F-22 Raptor.

In the development of the fighter participated KB Sukhoi, where he was given the name of the design According to experts, PAK FA meets all requirements for the aircraft of the fifth generation: cost of service, is developing a supersonic speed without afterburner, maneuver in conditions of high congestion, as well as the super modern system of intellectualization of the board.

Maximum speed fighter is about 2,1 thousand kilometers per hour and he will be able to fly a distance of more than 5 thousand kilometers. On board the aircraft using stealth technology.


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## vartan1983

Russian fifth generation aircraft prepares for its maiden flight. The test flight will reportedly take place on January 28 or January 29 at the air base in the city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Interfax news agency reports.

A very important event in the history of the Russian aircraft-making is about to take place. First runs showed very good results. We decided to conduct the first flight here, not in Moscow, Vyacheslav Shport, the governor of Russias Khabarovsk region said.

Only a few people  designers, engineers and test pilots - have seen the new Russian fighter so far. It was said, however, that the plane would develop the speed of 2,100 km/h and fly at the distance of up to 5,500 kilometers.

The first runs of the new fifth generation fighter jet took place in December of 2009 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

The new plane, known as T-50 or PAK FA, was developed by Sukhoi design bureau. The date of the maiden flight has been changed several times. Vice Premier Sergey Ivanov said in December 2009 that the new jet would take off before the end of the year. Afterwards, it was said that the tests had been pushed back to early 2010, but the date had not been exposed, Itar-Tass said.

The current prototype is Sukhoi's T-50 is intended to replace the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker in the Russian inventory. A fifth generation jet fighter, it is designed to directly compete with the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

The new jet will be able to take off and land on short runways, 300-400 meters long. The fifth generation aircraft will fly at large distances with multiple refueling in the air.

The PAK FA will use on its first flights 2 Saturn 117S engines (about 14.5 tons of thrust each). The 117S is an advanced version of the AL-31F, but built with the experience gained in the AL-41F program. The Saturn AL-41F powered the Mikoyan MFI fighter (Project/Article 1.44). Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 tons of thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut.

Russia s Air Force will have the new fighter jet in 2015. Indias Defense Ministry already plans to purchase 250 such planes from Sukhoi.

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## Trichy

vartan1983 said:


> Russian fifth generation aircraft prepares for its maiden flight. The test flight will reportedly take place on January 28 or January 29 at the air base in the city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Interfax news agency reports.
> 
> A very important event in the history of the Russian aircraft-making is about to take place. First runs showed very good results. We decided to conduct the first flight here, not in Moscow, Vyacheslav Shport, the governor of Russias Khabarovsk region said.
> 
> Only a few people  designers, engineers and test pilots - have seen the new Russian fighter so far. It was said, however, that the plane would develop the speed of 2,100 km/h and fly at the distance of up to 5,500 kilometers.
> 
> The first runs of the new fifth generation fighter jet took place in December of 2009 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> 
> The new plane, known as T-50 or PAK FA, was developed by Sukhoi design bureau. The date of the maiden flight has been changed several times. Vice Premier Sergey Ivanov said in December 2009 that the new jet would take off before the end of the year. Afterwards, it was said that the tests had been pushed back to early 2010, but the date had not been exposed, Itar-Tass said.
> 
> The current prototype is Sukhoi's T-50 is intended to replace the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker in the Russian inventory. A fifth generation jet fighter, it is designed to directly compete with the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.
> 
> The new jet will be able to take off and land on short runways, 300-400 meters long. The fifth generation aircraft will fly at large distances with multiple refueling in the air.
> 
> The PAK FA will use on its first flights 2 Saturn 117S engines (about 14.5 tons of thrust each). The 117S is an advanced version of the AL-31F, but built with the experience gained in the AL-41F program. The Saturn AL-41F powered the Mikoyan MFI fighter (Project/Article 1.44). Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 tons of thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut.
> 
> Russia s Air Force will have the new fighter jet in 2015. Indias Defense Ministry already plans to purchase 250 such planes from Sukhoi.



At last today we can see the Fly Past of PAK-FA. Tnx 4 ur info


----------



## Supersonic26

sancho said:


> No, just that we can have a better guess if it's really that stealthy as claimed, or that agile, how many weapons it carries and so on. Btw, FGFA will be a variant of Pak Fa, so if Pak Fa is not 5. gen, FGFA wouldn't either right?



Buddy FGFA will be twin seater and PAK-FA will be single seater. FGFA will be for india. There wont be much difference in design. Both are same and 5th gen stealthy jet fighters.


----------



## karan.1970

Trichy said:


> At last today we can see the Fly Past of PAK-FA. Tnx 4 ur info



If you go to the start of this thread (3-4 years back) T-50 was suppiosed to be a rumor started by Indians.. From rumor to reality in 4 years.. Not bad

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## skyisthelimit

Russia is set to hold the first test of its futuristic fifth-generation fighter jet on Friday, a source at the country's largest aircraft producer said on Thursday."The [test] flight was initially scheduled for Thursday, but has been postponed," the source at the Gagarin KNAAPO company, a subsidiary of aircraft holding Sukhoi, said.Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II, but has yet to take to the skies.

Speaking at a news conference later on Thursday, the chief of the Russian state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said India remained Russia's sole partner in the project."We [Russia and India] are working to build the fifth-generation aircraft," Anatoly Isaikin said.Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials earlier said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km would enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

India, which has a long history of defense relations with Russia, joined the project after signing an agreement in October 2007. But the two nations are still in talks to finalize the contract.India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25&#37; share in design and development in the project. It has also sought to modify Sukhoi's single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter India's Air Force wants.

Russia accounts for around 70% of India's weapons inventory. HAL has license-produced Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters, cooperated in the development of the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, and plans to work on a joint multirole transport aircraft.Defense ties have strained, however, over the fifth-generation fighter program and the rising cost of refurbishing the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian navy.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.The first prototype of the jet was already tested on the runway of the aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Russia's Far East. The test pilot made two runs on the airstrip, during which the brakes were applied several times.

ASIAN DEFENCE

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## Storm Force

Will be very interesting to see wat the PAK FA looks like tommrrow


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## Kinshuk

hahahaha!! I m not going to sleep tonight.....


----------



## MAB

Cant wait to see another 5th gen fighter. I wonder what it will look like, I hope it has forward swept wings like the su-47 because i really like that look and plus it also gives it really good maneuverability. I hope that they actually show the fighter tomorrow.


----------



## Luftwaffe

Ok emotions aside don't mind you guys but Chinese has yet to come up with best avionics and perfect her JH-7, J-10 and what not before even jump to any 5th Generation..while many say that T-50 and JXX are both some what sort of replica or copies of F-22 the point is if China wanted or could do could copy the whole design of Rafale or EF-2000 as a base of successful Fighter and come up with her version of joke!CF-2000...so for the next 8 Years i am not going to buy any story of stealthy JXX and J-10C and what not they could have worked upon J-10B as a stealthy design Nay! reality is different come back from the dreams.


----------



## gubbi

*Fifth-generation fighter took to the air*


> 29.01.2010, 04:58:53
> 
> Version Print | PDA / PDA
> Fifth-generation fighter took to the air
> On Friday, Russia's fifth-generation fighter went to the first flight, reports "InterfaxWith reference to an anonymous source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> 
> Prospective complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) has complied with the short run, broke away from the runway and began to climb.
> 
> Flying fighters is continuing. How it will last, the source did not elaborate.
> 
> 
> URL: Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ðîññèéñêèé èñòðåáèòåëü ïÿòîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ ïîäíÿëñÿ â âîçäóõ
> [ Report a misprint ]
> [ Letter to the Editor ]



Sorry guys, thats a google translation, but the message is clear. PAK-FA took to the air...


more news coming....hang in tight


----------



## booo

As per sukhoi forum, the plane took off this morning. its flooded with guests now.

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## gubbi

PAK-FA landed, confirmed on sukhoi forums!!


----------



## gubbi

*Fifth-generation fighter took to the air*


> On Friday, Russia's fifth-generation fighter went to the first flight, reports "InterfaxWith reference to an anonymous source in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> 
> Prospective complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) has complied with the short run, broke away from the runway and began to climb.
> 
> Flying fighters is continuing. How it will last, the source of the agency did not specify.
> 
> Recall, it was planned that the first flight of the fighter will be held on Thursday, January 28, but it was postponed for a day. The reasons for such decision was taken, in the headquarters of the Far Eastern Association Air Force and Air Defense did not say.
> 
> Tests PAK FA airfield aviation production association "Dry" in Komsomolsk-on-Amur began in December 2009. Then the fighter, also known as T-50 and article 701, made its first run.
> 
> Official data on the technical characteristics of fifth generation fighter is not disclosed, and no reliable information about its appearance. Assumed that the new aircraft will be equipped with precision weapons, can hit any target in any conditions and will have little noticeable for equipment tracking.
> 
> Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin has suggested that the armed forces can begin to purchase the fifth generation fighter in 2015.
> 
> Links
> - First flight of fifth-generation fighter was postponed for a day - Lenta.ru, 28.01.2010
> - First flight of fifth-generation fighter was appointed on January 28 - Lenta.ru, 28.01.2010
> - Named a new date for first flight of fifth-generation fighter - Lenta.ru, 27.01.2010
> - Began testing fifth-generation fighter - Lenta.ru, 24.12.2009
> - RF Air Force will receive fifth-generation fighter in 2015 - Lenta.ru, 19.09.2009



Thats the google translation. But the aircraft flew today!!

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## booo

Fifth-generation fighter made its first flight

MOSCOW, January 29 - RIA Novosti. Rossiiskii fifth-generation fighter - a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft - commit on Friday its first flight, told RIA Novosti by telephone source in the aviation production association named after YA Gagarin (KnAAPO, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).

"The flight lasted for about 40 minutes," - the source said.

Fifth-generation fighter under development since the 1990's. New aviation complex will have several unique features: clock, all weather and stealth applications, low visibility and long-term supersonic flight. The aircraft will get a new on-board navigation station and a highly automated system of defense.

Plane at the end of last year made his first jog in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said earlier that the new generation fighter will begin to come into Russia's troops in 2015.

Other planes in the photographic tape Fighters, "amphibians" and other "iron birds" flying down to the MAX>>

RIA Novosti

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## gubbi

PAK-FA landed after a successful flight!! Confirmed on Sukhoi forums!!
Flew for approx 40 mins

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## gubbi

Pics will be available in 2-3 hrs from now. Stay posted!!


----------



## sancho

booo said:


> Fifth-generation fighter made its first flight
> 
> MOSCOW, January 29 - RIA Novosti. Rossiiskii fifth-generation fighter - a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft - commit on Friday its first flight, told RIA Novosti by telephone source in the aviation production association named after YA Gagarin (KnAAPO, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).
> 
> "The flight lasted for about 40 minutes," - the source said.
> 
> Fifth-generation fighter under development since the 1990's. New aviation complex will have several unique features: clock, all weather and stealth applications, low visibility and long-term supersonic flight. The aircraft will get a new on-board navigation station and a highly automated system of defense.
> 
> Plane at the end of last year made his first jog in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> 
> Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said earlier that the new generation fighter will begin to come into Russia's troops in 2015.
> 
> Other planes in the photographic tape Fighters, "amphibians" and other "iron birds" flying down to the MAX>>
> 
> RIA Novosti


Finally it went up and landed safely again! Can't wait for the pics!


----------



## DeathGod

Hazoor ko PAKFA ke darshan karayein jaayein...

Please post the pics ASAP guys... I am delaying my march to office for an hour. Hopefully will get to see it by then


----------



## marcos98

*Sergey Bogdan*- lucky test pilot whos flying he PAKFA

^^ this is not PAKFA

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## beckham

gubbi said:


> PAK-FA landed after a successful flight!! Confirmed on Sukhoi forums!!
> Flew for approx 40 mins



Great !!






I am waiting for the pic's.....


----------



## MAB

I keep refreshing the page like every 10 minutes hoping for a pic. LOL


----------



## satishkumarcsc

MAB said:


> I keep refreshing the page like every 10 minutes hoping for a pic. LOL



I am doing it already in 6 forums...


----------



## gubbi

We ought to get some video grabs or crude pics sometime within a couple of hours. Hold your breath!

Apparently the test pilot was Sergei Bogdan who has an impressive record!


----------



## Kinshuk

it must be in the media??? or it is not???


----------



## Kinshuk

i mean on tv??


----------



## gubbi

Kinshuk said:


> i mean on tv??



Its all over Russian news media, but no pics shown nor any video. We will have to wait - a few more hours!


----------



## Kinshuk

Ohh god awesome.. finally... i didn't sleep much last night...


----------



## sms

booo said:


> Fifth-generation fighter made its first flight
> 
> MOSCOW, January 29 - RIA Novosti. Rossiiskii fifth-generation fighter - a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft - commit on Friday its first flight, told RIA Novosti by telephone source in the aviation production association named after YA Gagarin (KnAAPO, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).
> 
> "The flight lasted for about 40 minutes," - the source said.
> 
> Fifth-generation fighter under development since the 1990's. New aviation complex will have several unique features: clock, all weather and stealth applications, low visibility and long-term supersonic flight. The aircraft will get a new on-board navigation station and a highly automated system of defense.
> 
> Plane at the end of last year made his first jog in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
> 
> Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said earlier that the new generation fighter will begin to come into Russia's troops in 2015.
> 
> Other planes in the photographic tape Fighters, "amphibians" and other "iron birds" flying down to the MAX>>
> 
> RIA Novosti




Pictures please .... too much of suspense..


----------



## Tejas-MkII

Hopefully we get the full picture of PAK-FA ..... ,it shouldn't be like INS Arihant...


----------



## Kinshuk

Ohhh God saw it on RT it looks awesome.. They showed it flying,, almost like f 22
I would say better,,


----------



## Kinshuk

RT showed a glimpse of it,,, Its sleek fantastic stremlined body... brusting out with excitment.


----------



## chantpapipart2

Kinshuk said:


> Ohhh God saw it on RT it looks awesome.. They showed it flying,, almost like f 22
> I would say better,,


Please provide link


----------



## sudhir007




----------



## Kinshuk

chantpapipart2 said:


> Please provide link



Sir, I saw it on Russia Today... a news channel.. How to link it with the computer?

Well just wait... If they posted any images on RT website.


----------



## Kinshuk

sudhir007 said:


> YouTube - SUKHOI PAK-FA T-50 FGFA india's stealth fighter



Lol this is like 6 7 months old news.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

What is RT?


----------



## chantpapipart2

Kinshuk said:


> Sir, I saw it on Russia Today... a news channel.. How to link it with the computer?
> 
> Well just wait... If they posted any images on RT website.


 there is nothing on their website


----------



## Kinshuk

satishkumarcsc said:


> What is RT?





RT?

Russia Today... Very reputed channel Globally just like CNN BBC.


----------



## Kinshuk

chantpapipart2 said:


> there is nothing on their website



Then Sir please wait. You will see very soon..


----------



## Kinshuk

Yes... I am the first one to see this thing... hahahahah!!! its so beautiful man,,, Just wait and watch,,,


----------



## Tejas-MkII

Kinshuk said:


> Lol this is like 6 7 months old news.



Hi Kinshuk

may be it look silly but next time you saw the AC in RT then Take the photo in TV only and post it here......


----------



## chantpapipart2

Kinshuk said:


> Then Sir please wait. You will see very soon..


 Brother .. check Streaming video, live cams, broadcasts | On Air - RT

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## Kinshuk

and if you guys don't believe me then here's the deal... It was escorted by 2 Mig 35,,, so when you see the video you will admit it. Don't forget I was the first to see PAKFA in India.. lol!!!!!!!!


----------



## Kinshuk

Tejas-MkII said:


> Hi Kinshuk
> 
> may be it look silly but next time you saw the AC in RT then Take the photo in TV only and post it here......



lol sir !!!! nothing is silly now, I think I should have taken one, and should have charged the google..


----------



## Kinshuk

chantpapipart2 said:


> Brother .. check Streaming video, live cams, broadcasts | On Air - RT



Keep watching as the news repeats itself every 30 mins or an hour or so..


----------



## chantpapipart2

Kinshuk said:


> lol sir !!!! nothing is silly now, I think I should have taken one, and should have charged the google..


 Kinshuk.... u r in great demand today


----------



## Kinshuk

BTW for your knowledge it looks very much like F 22 has internal weapon bay, light grey in color(lol), And and its just to good looking to have a gf like her,


----------



## chantpapipart2

Kinshuk said:


> BTW for your knowledge it looks very much like F 22 has internal weapon bay, light grey in color(lol), And and its just to good looking to have a gf like her,



Its a twin seat prototype... they are saying it will be ready by 2015


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

I have also seen  ................
cool much like F-22


----------



## jaunty

chantpapipart2 said:


> Brother .. check Streaming video, live cams, broadcasts | On Air - RT



Thanks for the link..Just got a glimpse of it during the headlines.


----------



## ssheppard

Hey I have taken a snapshot ofr the PAKFA video running on Site..can anyone help me with file upload


----------



## owais.usmani

The name of the test pilot is *Sergey Bogdan*



&#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;.
&#1056;&#1091;&#1073;&#1088;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;: &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; PAK FA  Pilot @ 9:14 &#1087;&#1087; Translate to English

&#1057;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1103;&#1083;&#1086;&#1089;&#1100; &#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1075;&#1086;&#1078;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1099;&#1090;&#1080;&#1077; &#1074; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;. &#1055;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1099;&#1081; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1077; &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040;. &#1055;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077;&#1093; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080; &#1083;&#1102;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;!!! &#1055;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1078;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;&#1102; 45 &#1084;&#1080;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1080;&#1083; &#1057;&#1077;&#1088;&#1075;&#1077;&#1081; &#1041;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;


PAK-FA fly.
Category: FA PAK PAK FA - Pilot @ 9:14 pm Translate to English

Long-awaited event in Russia's military aircraft. I flew the first airplane program PAK FA. Congratulations to all involved and aviation enthusiasts! The flight duration of 45 minutes performed Sergey Bogdan



???? Pilot? ??? ?? ???????.


----------



## Kinshuk

Hey shep... Thats like my boy,,,


Go to you tube create a new profile and thn follow upload video,, Upload it and give us the link and sleep tight after that, lol last part was out of the excitment.


----------



## beckham

Kinshuk said:


> BTW for your knowledge it looks very much like F 22 has internal weapon bay, light grey in color(lol), And and its just to good looking to have a gf like her,



U mean Grey colored gf with internal weapons bay ? 

Comon buddy try for a screen shot of the plane, everyone is waiting..


----------



## sms

^^^ you guys are luck... I can see some one making cocktails on RT ...


----------



## satishkumarcsc

any idea how the exhausts are?


----------



## ssheppard

There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...

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## jaunty

ssheppard said:


> Hey I have taken a snapshot ofr the PAKFA video running on Site..can anyone help me with file upload



Upload it on ---

ImageShack&#174; - Online Media Hosting

They will give you a direct link. Post that here as---

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## Kinshuk

They didn't show the exaust.. Trust me actually it was a stupid video,, lol i mean PAKFA is there, but it was taking the video of two Mig 35 fully weponised escorting her.. Lol PAKFA was shown after that,, Wat stupidity.. lolllll,,, but at least they shown..


----------



## Kinshuk

beckham said:


> U mean Grey colored gf with internal weapons bay ?
> 
> Comon buddy try for a screen shot of the plane, everyone is waiting..



Lol wud exchange my gf for this God machine for sure...


----------



## ptldM3

ssheppard said:


> There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...



Thats the F-22, look at the vertical stabs, looks like American acronyms.

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## Kinshuk

self deleted.


----------



## jaunty

Kinshuk said:


> Lol wud exchange my gf for this God machine for sure...



With whom


----------



## beckham

ssheppard said:


> There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...



Isn't that Raptor ??

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## Kinshuk

Is that a F 22??? acronym is not visible yaar.


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

beckham said:


> Isn't that Raptor ??



 ...


----------



## ssheppard

Well I took a print screen from the live streaming of news from ..Russia today...and they showed this plane...as the news was running......


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

All of expert please confirm the image


----------



## Kinshuk

jaunty said:


> With whom



AAhhhhaann bohot paani aa raha hai,, Ek fgfa de do.. gf lelo.. lol


----------



## Supersonic26

ssheppard said:


> There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...



Buddy our PAK-FA looks alot better then F-22 raptor. It looks bit similar to JSF-35 but more lethel looks. Gray is IAF favoright color too. i wish we get clear pic soon. This pic made my excitement shoot up even more.


----------



## Kinshuk

ssheppard said:


> Well I took a print screen from the live streaming of news from ..Russia today...and they showed this plane...as the news was running......



Lol!! I work for Lockheed martins but not technical expert for sure.


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

Kinshuk said:


> AAhhhhaann bohot paani aa raha hai,, Ek fgfa de do.. gf lelo.. lol



done ................. 

Y ar pahale photo to confirm karo ki wahi hai


----------



## jha

it says rt stream not found....


----------



## sms

ssheppard said:


> There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...



Somthing wrong... it must be Raptor? Can some one confirm?


----------



## Kinshuk

How disappointing its gonna be if they don't release the pics.


----------



## beckham

*Thats raptor !! * 









*^^ Raptor*

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## Kinshuk

Arey lets leave RT and wait for someone to show the real image..


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## owais.usmani

The plane shown in this news fotage is actually F-22!!


----------



## Kinshuk

A$$hole RT.. why the F it showed F 22.. broke all the bubbles dumb F**k


----------



## Lankan Ranger

Is This PAK FA


----------



## Srinivas

owais.usmani said:


> The name of the test pilot is *Sergey Bogdan*
> 
> 
> 
> &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;.
> &#1056;&#1091;&#1073;&#1088;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;: &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; PAK FA  Pilot @ 9:14 &#1087;&#1087; Translate to English
> 
> &#1057;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1103;&#1083;&#1086;&#1089;&#1100; &#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1075;&#1086;&#1078;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1099;&#1090;&#1080;&#1077; &#1074; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;. &#1055;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1099;&#1081; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1077; &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040;. &#1055;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077;&#1093; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080; &#1083;&#1102;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;!!! &#1055;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1078;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;&#1102; 45 &#1084;&#1080;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1080;&#1083; &#1057;&#1077;&#1088;&#1075;&#1077;&#1081; &#1041;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;
> 
> 
> PAK-FA fly.
> Category: FA PAK PAK FA - Pilot @ 9:14 pm Translate to English
> 
> Long-awaited event in Russia's military aircraft. I flew the first airplane program PAK FA. Congratulations to all involved and aviation enthusiasts! The flight duration of 45 minutes performed Sergey Bogdan
> 
> 
> 
> ???? Pilot? ??? ?? ???????.



Is it PAK-FA in the back ground?


----------



## Kinshuk

Sri Lankan said:


> Is This PAK FA
> 
> YouTube - Su-47 Berkut



This is SU 47.. Not PAKFA, Developed a long back,,, This plan was dropped out,,


----------



## beckham

^^ thats Su-47 Berkut !


----------



## ptldM3

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Is it PAK-FA in the back ground?



That's an SU-30.


----------



## owais.usmani

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Is it PAK-FA in the back ground?



Absolutely NO. I will post PAK FA pictures in this thread as soon as it shows its face on the internet.


----------



## Lankan Ranger




----------



## Supersonic26

Sri Lankan said:


> Is This PAK FA
> 
> YouTube - Su-47 Berkut



No buddy. That's Su-47 Berkut. Its demonstration jet fighter. It wont be produce. Its sad it wont be in production. Which country wont love this jet fighter. Its beauty.


----------



## chantpapipart2

Confirmed news.. Sukhoi has not released any pic or video.


----------



## adatta

how to upload photo...please suggest...i have the photo from rt...


----------



## ssheppard

Just saw the news once again....this time it was more detailed....the guy says that the project has been kept secret and is going to stay that ways till the time T50 rolls out from assembly lines.........No images would be released considering importance of the project to Russia and India.


Guess we will have to wait for 4 to 5 yrs.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

PICTURES!!!! ?????


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

ssheppard said:


> Just saw the news once again....this time it was more detailed....the guy says that the project has been kept secret and is going to stay that ways till the time T50 rolls out from assembly lines.........No images would be released considering importance of the project to Russia and India.
> 
> 
> Guess we will have to wait for 4 to 5 yrs.



 kya........................


----------



## owais.usmani

*There it is guys. First photo of the beast:*


----------



## Lankan Ranger




----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

EmO GiRl said:


> PICTURES!!!! ?????



A*nty thoda upar bhi pad lo

PS- Sorry for *unty


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Sri Lankan said:


> YouTube - Russian technology at it's best



thats a SLBM launch, Trident replaced by F-15  

are you all right??



> Aunty thoda upar bhi pad lo
> 
> PS- Sorry for Aunty



Aunty remove kr do, warna you don't know power of Staff


----------



## owais.usmani

*There it is guys. First photo of the beast:*

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## booo




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## beckham

ssheppard said:


> Just saw the news once again....this time it was more detailed....the guy says that the project has been kept secret and is going to stay that ways till the time T50 rolls out from assembly lines.........No images would be released considering importance of the project to Russia and India.
> 
> 
> Guess we will have to wait for 4 to 5 yrs.



Are you sure...??


----------



## Adios Amigo

owais.usmani said:


> *There it is guys. First photo of the beast:*



Awais it looks like you have hit the jackpot


----------



## Thomas

ssheppard said:


> Just saw the news once again....this time it was more detailed....the guy says that the project has been kept secret and is going to stay that ways till the time T50 rolls out from assembly lines.........No images would be released considering importance of the project to Russia and India.
> 
> 
> Guess we will have to wait for 4 to 5 yrs.



I'm sure the U.S. has detailed up close satellite pic's of it already from it's runway taxi test. Or maybe from someone on the ground.


----------



## mean_bird

First pic of PAK-FA


----------



## DaRk WaVe

owais.usmani said:


> *There it is guys. First photo of the beast:*



is se zyda fazul photo ni mile the tumhe 

the nose is just like MiG-35  & only vertical fins are bit apart, looks like a PS of MiG-35

are you sure its not a PS


----------



## chantpapipart2

ssheppard said:


> Just saw the news once again....this time it was more detailed....the guy says that the project has been kept secret and is going to stay that ways till the time T50 rolls out from assembly lines.........No images would be released considering importance of the project to Russia and India.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't want CHINA to copy design
Click to expand...


----------



## owais.usmani

Screen shot from the video (thanks to the Russian guy who took it):

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## Mrityunjay Rai

EmO GiRl said:


> is se zyda fazul photo ni mile the tumhe
> 
> the nose is just like MiG-35
> 
> are you sure its not a PS



Aapne to mere muh ki bat chhin li

By the way if it is PAK-FA the our Sukhoi is better that it


----------



## adatta

i have much better quality picture from rt...koi batai ga how to upload....


----------



## syntax_error

beckham said:


> ^^ thats Su-47 Berkut !


check this 
Sukhoi PAK FA makes successful first flight - congratulations!

how do i upload the pic

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## Lankan Ranger



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## Lankan Ranger

*PAK FA VIDEO*


----------



## syntax_error

PIC


----------



## owais.usmani

Screen shot from from the video from a sukhoi forum member's desktop:


----------



## mean_bird




----------



## DaRk WaVe

adatta said:


> i have much better quality picture from rt...koi batai ga how to upload....



right click on photo there will be option of copy link address or copy link location & then post the link here


----------



## jaunty




----------



## Lankan Ranger

*RUSSIAN PAK FA VIDEO*


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Congratulation Indians

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## Mrityunjay Rai

EmO GiRl said:


> Congratulation Indians



But acha nahi lag rah hai thoda aur khoobsoorat banana tha na


----------



## owais.usmani



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## sms

Hi... I've found these.....

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## mean_bird




----------



## owais.usmani



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## xebex

guys here is the PAKFA we all been waiting.

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## ptldM3

It doesn't look as nice or stealth as i was excpecting. I really hope they redesign the nose and remove the cone thing between the engines.

It will likley recieve changes.


----------



## Adios Amigo

Its much better looking then what I have envisioned earlier. Congrats to you guys, So now there isn't only one country in the world to claim Fifth generation, however will be anxiously waiting for its specs, do determine its capabilites.











adios.


----------



## beckham

Sri Lankan said:


> YouTube - PAK FA today



   


_FINALLY...................._


----------



## Lankan Ranger

RUSSIA PAK FA VIDEO


----------



## DaRk WaVe

ptldM3 said:


> It doesn't look as nice or stealth as i was excpecting. I really hope they redesign the nose and remove the cone thing between the engines.
> 
> It will likley recieve changes.



the usual Sukhoi design i.e. the projection between two engines


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

adeos amigo said:


> Its much better looking then what I have envisioned earlier. Congrats to you guys, So now there isn't only one country in the world to claim Fifth generation, however will be anxiously waiting for its specs, do determine its capabilites.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adios.



I dont think so ...................
Not much good


----------



## mean_bird

mean_bird said:


>



Where will the internal weapons bay be?

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## adatta

i have uploaded thru upload photos link but it's showing pending approval...


----------



## Mrityunjay Rai

mean_bird said:


> Where will the internal weapons bay be?



Yup valid question........................


----------



## ptldM3

EmO GiRl said:


> the usual Sukhoi design i.e. the projection between two engines



True, from the rear it looks like a Flanker. The nose looks like the F-35 maybe not as bad as i originally thought. I wish the exhaust was similar to the F-22.

But it's just a prototype.


----------



## Lankan Ranger

PAK FA READY


----------



## owais.usmani

View attachment 6ed1d7eb957dccad39d31fa6515ea3e6.jpg


----------



## owais.usmani

View attachment 6ed1d7eb957dccad39d31fa6515ea3e6.jpg

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## booo




----------



## xebex

It does look more like a Berkut with rear swept wings and a nose look much like F35.


----------



## desimorty

Its a heavily mutated Sukio airframe no doubt, probabily uses a lot of the same material and can be built on the same line. Heavy, the front of the aircraft resembles the flanker while the wings have been given more surface yet the tail has been reduced.
If you look at the F-22 its the same as F-15 but englarged wings and a mutated body. 
It should do very well interms of cost. There will be a lot of spinoffs.


----------



## Adios Amigo

Did it actually fly or was it just a run down the runway, cause the video only shows it running, then lifting its nose and then again straitening it down.

BTW, why you guys are so much bothered about the looks, it was designed by sokhoi, so their influence was must. However i think it also has features resembling mig 1.44. to me its a fine looking beast.







adios

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## owais.usmani

cockpit and internal weapons bay.

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## sudhir007

PAK-FA


Look very much smiler to F-22


----------



## Thomas

A lot of the conceptual pics we have seen up to now were defiantly off. Glad to see Sukhoi incorporated a lot of their own design into it rather then copy much of the F-22 airframe. Those engines make me wonder though how much IR sig they give off.


----------



## gambit

Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.


----------



## Novice09

Novice09 said:


> As far as I think, they aren't going to provide any official photos and videos to the press. But if they provide such stuff, it will put the defense forums on fire



As I thought, No OFFICIAL pics or videos.


----------



## jaunty

You have already posted it in the India defence section. Any special reason of posting a new thread again?


----------



## owais.usmani

cockpit and internal weapons bay.


----------



## Adios Amigo

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.



hahahaha i am expecting a similar comment from you when Jxx appears.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

*New Russian Fighter Makes Test Flight*

MOSCOW (Reuters) - A new fighter aircraft seen as Russia's response to U.S. advances in military aviation made a successful first test flight Friday, plane maker Sukhoi said.

The fighter, Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union, flew for about 45 minutes, Sukhoi spokeswoman Olga Kayukova said on Rossiya 24 television.

"The plane performed very well," said Kayukova.

"All our expectations for this first flight were met. The premiere was a success."

Analysts have said it would probably be five to seven years before Russia's military got to fly the new fighter.

The fighter, which Rossiya 24 said had been tentatively dubbed the T-50 by its makers, is crucial to demonstrating that Russia can hold its own and even challenge U.S. technology.

It is seen as Moscow's answer to the U.S.-built F-22 Raptor stealth fighter, which first flew in 1997.

The plane took off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Russia's Far East, Kayukova said.


----------



## gambit

adeos amigo said:


> hahahaha i am expecting a similar comment from you when Jxx appears.


*EVERYTHING* that take to the sky is dead meat for the Raptor.


----------



## karan.1970

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.



Any analysis to back that up? Or pure patriotism? just curious??


----------



## mean_bird

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.



Nationalism at its best when you don't even know jack about this plane.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## satishkumarcsc

Well as that wasnt the Intended engine o be placed and a bigger and better engine is supposed to fill that place..I think that explains the size of its arse. And well if you se T 10 and the SU 27 there are hugge differences..perhaps we must wait for the final product to arrive


----------



## Novice09

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.



This is first time when I had seen a conclusive post by gambit without any technical explanation  on


----------



## chantpapipart2

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.


How can you be so sure about it... we don't know anything about this plane as yet. making assumptions by just looking at the pic is not a smart thing to do.


----------



## mean_bird

Looks like these guys were right all along


----------



## Thomas

sudhir007 said:


> PAK-FA
> 
> 
> Look very much smiler to F-22



I can see one stealth aspect it doesn't have that the F-22 does. It has no iridium-tin oxide coating (Gold canopy). Which is used to reflect radar waves away from the cockpit.


----------



## owais.usmani

gambit said:


> Not bad looking. Still -- dead meat for the Raptor.



Raptor happens to be vegetarian. Poor thing!!

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## Adios Amigo

Novice09 said:


> This is first time when I had seen a conclusive post by gambit without any technical explanation  on



ohhhhhhhh, then you have missed the real movie and just watched the trailers











adios

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## graphican

gambit said:


> *EVERYTHING* that take to the sky is dead meat for the Raptor.



Even if that is yet another Raptor? Sounds like universal law of gravitation

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## ptldM3

gambit said:


> Not bad looking.



Glad you like it, what do you think about the rear? too Flankerish?



gambit said:


> Still -- dead meat for the Raptor



Raptors are extinct.

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## DaRk WaVe

Gambit don't spoil their party


----------



## Novice09

adeos amigo said:


> ohhhhhhhh, then you have missed the real movie and just watched the trailers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adios



@adeos amigo

Might be


----------



## owais.usmani

*From Sukhoi's website:*

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## TaimiKhan




----------



## mean_bird

*SUKHOI PRESS RELEASE​*
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&#1055;&#1086; &#1089;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089; &#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1084;&#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1099;&#1076;&#1091;&#1097;&#1080;&#1093; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081;, &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; &#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1086;&#1084; &#1091;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1086;&#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081;, &#1089;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1103; &#1074; &#1089;&#1077;&#1073;&#1077; &#1092;&#1091;&#1085;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1091;&#1076;&#1072;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1080; &#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;.

&#1057;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1086;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1085;&#1094;&#1080;&#1087;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1084; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1086;&#1084; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080;, &#1080;&#1085;&#1090;&#1077;&#1075;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1102;&#1097;&#1077;&#1084; &#1092;&#1091;&#1085;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1102; «&#1101;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;», &#1080; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1094;&#1080;&#1077;&#1081; &#1089; &#1092;&#1072;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1085;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1077;&#1090;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086; &#1074; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1078;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1085;&#1072;&#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1079;&#1082;&#1091; &#1085;&#1072; &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1095;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1094;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103; &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1095;. &#1041;&#1086;&#1088;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1077; &#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1091;&#1076;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1086;&#1089;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1073;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085; &#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1074; &#1088;&#1077;&#1078;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077; &#1088;&#1077;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1089; &#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077;&#1084;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1089;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080; &#1091;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;, &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1080; &#1074;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1087;&#1087;&#1099;.

&#1055;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; &#1080; &#1080;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1081;, &#1072;&#1101;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1082;&#1072; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;, &#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103; &#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1095;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090; &#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1094;&#1077;&#1076;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1091;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081;, &#1086;&#1087;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1080; &#1080;&#1085;&#1092;&#1088;&#1072;&#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1091;&#1102; &#1101;&#1092;&#1092;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1074; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;, &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1087;&#1086; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1091;&#1096;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;, &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1080; &#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077;&#1084;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084; &#1094;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1084;, &#1074; &#1083;&#1102;&#1073;&#1086;&#1077; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1103; &#1089;&#1091;&#1090;&#1086;&#1082;, &#1074; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080; &#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1086;&#1091;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1103;&#1093;.

«&#1057;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1103; &#1084;&#1099; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080; &#1082; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1099; &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080;&#1089;&#1087;&#1099;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1086;&#1081; &#1091;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1093; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1085;&#1072;&#1091;&#1082;&#1080; &#1080; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1091;&#1082;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1084;&#1099;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080;. &#1047;&#1072; &#1101;&#1090;&#1080;&#1084; &#1076;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077;&#1084; &#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1080;&#1090; &#1082;&#1086;&#1086;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1103; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; &#1089;&#1086;&#1090;&#1085;&#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1081;-&#1089;&#1084;&#1077;&#1078;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1096;&#1080;&#1093; &#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1075;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1085;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;. &#1055;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1072; &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; &#1074;&#1099;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1077; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1080; &#1089;&#1084;&#1077;&#1078;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1086;&#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1085;&#1072; &#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1081; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1091;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1080; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1091; &#1089; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080; &#1095;&#1077;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1091;&#1090; &#1086;&#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1090;&#1100; &#1087;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1094;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1042;&#1042;&#1057; &#1074; &#1090;&#1077;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1078;&#1072;&#1081;&#1096;&#1080;&#1093; &#1076;&#1077;&#1089;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1080;&#1081;. &#1042; &#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1099; &#1050;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; «&#1057;&#1091;&#1093;&#1086;&#1081;» &#1074;&#1093;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090; &#1080; &#1076;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1077;&#1081;&#1096;&#1077;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1080;&#1077; &#1055;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1099; &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1076; &#1082;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1081; &#1084;&#1099; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1084; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1089;&#1086;&#1074;&#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086; &#1089; &#1080;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1084;&#1080; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1085;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;. &#1071; &#1091;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;, &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1072;&#1096; &#1089;&#1086;&#1074;&#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1074;&#1079;&#1086;&#1081;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090; &#1079;&#1072;&#1087;&#1072;&#1076;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1072;&#1085;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080; &#1087;&#1086; &#1082;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1080;&#1084;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;-&#1101;&#1092;&#1092;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; &#1085;&#1077; &#1090;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086; &#1091;&#1082;&#1088;&#1077;&#1087;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1091;&#1102; &#1084;&#1086;&#1097;&#1100; &#1042;&#1042;&#1057; &#1056;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1080; &#1080; &#1048;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1080;, &#1085;&#1086; &#1080; &#1079;&#1072;&#1081;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090; &#1076;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1081;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; &#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1072; &#1084;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1084; &#1088;&#1099;&#1085;&#1082;&#1077;»,  &#1089;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1072;&#1083; &#1043;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1076;&#1080;&#1088;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088; &#1054;&#1040;&#1054; «&#1050;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; «&#1057;&#1091;&#1093;&#1086;&#1081;» &#1052;&#1080;&#1093;&#1072;&#1080;&#1083; &#1055;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1103;&#1085;, &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1103; &#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086; &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080;&#1089;&#1087;&#1099;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081;.

&#1050;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1089;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1082;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1084; &#1055;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;.

&#1055;&#1086; &#1089;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089; &#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1084;&#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1099;&#1076;&#1091;&#1097;&#1080;&#1093; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081;, &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1086;&#1084; &#1091;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1086;&#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081;, &#1089;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1103; &#1074; &#1089;&#1077;&#1073;&#1077; &#1092;&#1091;&#1085;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1091;&#1076;&#1072;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1080; &#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;.

&#1057;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1086;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1085;&#1094;&#1080;&#1087;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1084; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1086;&#1084; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080;, &#1080;&#1085;&#1090;&#1077;&#1075;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1102;&#1097;&#1080;&#1084; &#1092;&#1091;&#1085;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1102; «&#1101;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;», &#1080; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1094;&#1080;&#1077;&#1081; &#1089; &#1092;&#1072;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1085;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1077;&#1090;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086; &#1074; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1078;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1085;&#1072;&#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1079;&#1082;&#1091; &#1085;&#1072; &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1095;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1094;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103; &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1095;. &#1041;&#1086;&#1088;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1077; &#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1091;&#1076;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1086;&#1089;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1073;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085; &#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1074; &#1088;&#1077;&#1078;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077; &#1088;&#1077;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1089; &#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077;&#1084;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1089;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080; &#1091;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;, &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1080; &#1074;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1087;&#1087;&#1099;.

&#1055;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; &#1080; &#1080;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1081;, &#1072;&#1101;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1082;&#1072; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;, &#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103; &#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1095;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090; &#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1094;&#1077;&#1076;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1091;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081;, &#1086;&#1087;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1080; &#1080;&#1085;&#1092;&#1088;&#1072;&#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1091;&#1102; &#1101;&#1092;&#1092;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1074; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;, &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1087;&#1086; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1091;&#1096;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;, &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1080; &#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077;&#1084;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084; &#1094;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1084;, &#1074; &#1083;&#1102;&#1073;&#1086;&#1077; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1103; &#1089;&#1091;&#1090;&#1086;&#1082;, &#1074; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080; &#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;&#1086;&#1091;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1103;&#1093;. &#1053;&#1080;&#1079;&#1082;&#1072;&#1103; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;-&#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1093;&#1072;&#1088;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080; &#1080; &#1084;&#1072;&#1085;&#1077;&#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;&#1090; &#1084;&#1080;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1080;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1091;&#1075;&#1088;&#1086;&#1079;&#1091; &#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1086;&#1090;&#1091;, &#1079;&#1072; &#1089;&#1095;&#1077;&#1090; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090; &#1087;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1096;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1078;&#1080;&#1074;&#1091;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;&#1102; &#1074; &#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1099;&#1093; &#1091;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1103;&#1093; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080; &#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1081;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1080;&#1080; &#1089;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084; &#1055;&#1042;&#1054;. &#1059;&#1074;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1091;&#1089; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090; &#1082; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1090;&#1086;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080; &#1088;&#1077;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1079;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1079;&#1072;&#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1099;&#1093; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1095;.

&#1057;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1076;&#1086;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1103;&#1090; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1082; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074; &#1095;&#1077;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;, &#1072; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1078;&#1077; &#1079;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103;&#1090; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1088;&#1077;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102;&#1097;&#1080;&#1081; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1082; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080;. &#1042; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1080;&#1077; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1088;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; &#1079;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1095;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1084; &#1086;&#1087;&#1090;&#1080;&#1084;&#1080;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1080; &#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1091;&#1082;&#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1091; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1082;&#1072;, &#1073;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072;&#1088;&#1103; &#1084;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1091;&#1074;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1101;&#1092;&#1092;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1080; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; &#1096;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1088; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1095; &#1089; &#1087;&#1086;&#1084;&#1086;&#1097;&#1100;&#1102; &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;.

&#1055;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1072; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1103;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1084; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1088;&#1099;&#1074;&#1086;&#1084; &#1074; &#1086;&#1090;&#1077;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080;, &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;&#1097;&#1077;&#1084; &#1089;&#1086;&#1093;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1073;&#1080;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086; &#1083;&#1080;&#1076;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1102;&#1097;&#1080;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1056;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1080; &#1085;&#1072; &#1084;&#1077;&#1078;&#1076;&#1091;&#1085;&#1072;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084; &#1088;&#1099;&#1085;&#1082;&#1077; &#1073;&#1086;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080;. &#1042; &#1084;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1084; &#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1089;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1091;&#1077;&#1090; &#1077;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1072;&#1085;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;  &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; F-35, &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091;&#1082;&#1090; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1051;&#1086;&#1082;&#1093;&#1080;&#1076; &#1052;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1080;&#1085;.

&#1042; &#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1099; &#1050;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; «&#1057;&#1091;&#1093;&#1086;&#1081;» &#1074;&#1093;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090; &#1076;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1077;&#1081;&#1096;&#1077;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1080;&#1077; &#1055;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1099; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1055;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1080; &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1092;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1089; &#1080;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1084;&#1080; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1085;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;. &#1057;&#1086;&#1074;&#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1074;&#1079;&#1086;&#1081;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090; &#1079;&#1072;&#1087;&#1072;&#1076;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1072;&#1085;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075; &#1087;&#1086; &#1082;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1080;&#1084;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;-&#1101;&#1092;&#1092;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; &#1085;&#1077; &#1090;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086; &#1091;&#1082;&#1088;&#1077;&#1087;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1091;&#1102; &#1084;&#1086;&#1097;&#1100; &#1042;&#1042;&#1057; &#1056;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1080; &#1080; &#1048;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1080;, &#1085;&#1086; &#1080; &#1079;&#1072;&#1081;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090; &#1076;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1081;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; &#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1072; &#1084;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1084; &#1088;&#1099;&#1085;&#1082;&#1077;.
Google Translate


Sukhoi LAUNCHES Flight tests Prospective COMPLEX Frontal Aviation (PAK FA)

Moscow, January 29. Today in Komsomolsk - on - Amur hosted the first flight of an experienced aviation complex of the fifth generation. The plane was piloted honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan Russia. Prototype PAK FA spent 47 minutes in the air and landed on the runway of the factory airfield.

The flight was successful, in full accordance with the flight plan. "During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. The aircraft proved itself well in all phases of our intended flight program. They easily and comfortably manage ", - said Sergey Bogdan.

Compared with previous generations of fighters, PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.

Fifth generation fighter aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the integrating function of e-pilot, and promising radar with a phased antenna array. This significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. On-board equipment of a new aircraft enables the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group.

*The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility.This allows you to significantly improve the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions.*

"Today we started a program of flight tests of fifth generation fighter aircraft. This is a great success of Russia's science and engineering thought. For this achievement is worth more than a hundred co-operatives allied enterprises, our strategic partners. PAK FA program displays Russia's aircraft manufacturing and related industries on a qualitatively new technological level. These planes, along with modernized aviation system of the fourth generation will determine the potential of Russian military aircraft in the coming decades. The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is included and further development of the Program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners. I am confident that our joint project will surpass the Western counterparts by the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Air Force of Russia and India, but will take its place in the world market ", - said General Director of JSC" Sukhoi "Mikhail Pogosyan, Commenting on the start of flight testing.

Summary of fifth generation fighter aircraft.

Compared with previous generations of fighters, the fifth generation has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.

Fifth generation fighter aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the integrating function of the e-pilot, and promising radar with a phased antenna array. This significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. On-board equipment of a new aircraft enables the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group.

The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility. This allows you to significantly improve the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions. Low visibility, aircraft performance and maneuverability allow to minimize the threat to the pilot, at the expense of the fifth generation fighter aircraft have increased survivability in difficult combat conditions, with the active counter air defense systems. Increased radius of combat use leads to greater autonomy of the fifth generation fighter aircraft in the implementation of the planned combat missions.

Fifth generation fighter aircraft will complement the fleet of modernized aircraft complexes of the fourth generation, as well as to replace the aging fleet of combat aircraft. In the long term availability of the fifth generation aircraft in service will allow customers to optimize and structure of the park, due to repeated increase combat effectiveness and capacity to address a broader range of tasks with a single plane.

Program to create long-term aviation system of the fifth generation is a technological breakthrough in the domestic aircraft industry, which allows to maintain a stable leading position of Russia on the international market of combat aircraft. In the world aviation there is a unique analogue of fifth generation fighter aircraft - is the F-35, a product of Lockheed Martin.

The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is the further development of the Program to create a fifth generation fighter aircraft and the creation of modification of aircraft with Indian partners. The joint project will surpass the Western equivalent to the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Air Force of Russia and India, but will take a worthy place in the world market

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## owais.usmani

*From Sukhoi's website:*


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## Novice09

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 66 (25 members and 41 guests)*

As I thought... this thread is on fire


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## aimarraul

owais.usmani said:


> *From Sukhoi's website:*



great pics,freaking hot

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## ptldM3

Thomas said:


> I can see one stealth aspect it doesn't have that the F-22 does. It has no iridium-tin oxide coating (Gold canopy). Which is used to reflect radar waves away from the cockpit.



That gold canopy in not always visible:

http://www.wallpaperpimper.com/wallpaper/Military/F_22_Raptor/F-22-Raptor-1-P11YTVCZ8F-1024x768.jpg

http://angiepalmer.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/f-22-raptors-arrival-2.jpg

Besides the quality of the video isn't the greatest.

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## Thomas

jaunty said:


> You have already posted it in the India defence section. Any special reason to posting a new thread again?



lol, cut the guy a break he is excited.


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## Adios Amigo

I am amazed at the reactions of our Indian mates, what have taken them so back, As if they are totally stunned,bitten by a snake,or lost a cricket match which they were winning up till the very last moment ?? Trust me if i was a partner in this project and this was the outcome assuring me at least 50% increase in performance over the latest SUs, i would have been happiest man on earth. just check out what your opponents have??

Hell I am more amazed on over Pakistani mates( including myself), we have been defending the project more then the Indians





adios

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## owais.usmani

Here in this shot the weapons bay is clearly visible between the engine intakes:

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## grey boy 2

CONGRATULATION  to my Indian friends, nice looking beast ! A picture i found, enjoy; 

View attachment 3680491bd66132de56e2c1941bcc6dd9.jpg


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## owais.usmani

Here in this shot the weapons bay is clearly visible between the engine intakes:


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## jha




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## jha




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## Moscow

the above picture is not pakfa its mig 1.44


----------



## Adios Amigo

grey boy 2 said:


> CONGRATULATION  to my Indian friends, nice looking beast ! A picture i found, enjoy;
> 
> View attachment 3680491bd66132de56e2c1941bcc6dd9.jpg



Grey boy, that was mig 1.44 not pakfa


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## jaunty

Thomas said:


> lol, cut the guy a break he is excited.



Ha ha..

Sorry Sri Lankan for being so rude


----------



## Moscow

ORIGINAL SUKHOI PRESS RELEASE

29/01/2010
Sukhoi began flight tests of long-term aviation system frontline aircraft (PAK FA)

Moscow, January 29. Today in Komsomolsk - on - Amur hosted the first flight of an experienced aviation complex of the fifth generation. The plane was piloted honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan Russia. Prototype PAK FA spent 47 minutes in the air and landed on the runway of the factory airfield.

Flight was successful, in full accordance with the flight plan. "During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. The aircraft proved itself well in all phases of our intended flight program. They easily and comfortably manage ", - said Sergey Bogdan.

Compared with previous generations of fighters, PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.

Fifth generation fighter aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the integrating function of e-pilot, and promising radar with a phased antenna array. This greatly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. On-board equipment of a new aircraft enables the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group.

The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility. This allows you to significantly improve the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions.

"Today we started a program of flight tests of fifth generation fighter aircraft. This is a great success of Russia's science and engineering thought. For this achievement is worth more than a hundred co-operatives allied enterprises, our strategic partners. PAK FA program displays Russia's aircraft manufacturing and related industries on a qualitatively new technological level. These planes, along with modernized aviation system of the fourth generation will determine the potential of Russian military aircraft in the coming decades. The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is included and further development of the Program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners. I am confident that our joint project will surpass the Western counterparts by the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Air Force of Russia and India, but will take its place in the world market ", - said General Director of JSC" Sukhoi "Mikhail Pogosyan, Commenting on the start of flight testing.

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## Spitfighter

I think it will take us at least 4 years before we can absorb the technology and initiate serial production, I'm just wondering how long it'll be before the plane is ready.


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## Novice09

*Russia's future fighter conquers the skies | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire*

- Russia's prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 45-minute maiden flight on Friday in the Far East, Russian television reported.

- The flight had been postponed for 24 hours due to poor weather conditions in Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the prototype is being tested.

- "The plane showed a superb performance. It has met all our expectations for the maiden flight," said Olga Kayukova, a spokesperson for the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer.

- The PAK FA is to be equipped with the most advanced technology and armed with next-generation high-precision weaponry.

- India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25&#37; share in design and development in the project. It has also sought to modify Sukhoi's single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter India's Air Force wants.


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## grey boy 2

Oops, sorry, my bad, its from a Chinese link;
*The success of Russia's 5th generation fighter flight safety flight landed 45 minutes*
????????5??????????????45??


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## Ultimate Warrior

Long live India - Russia Friendship

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## ptldM3

Owais thanks for the high resolution picture, looks much better. I hope they paint it dark grey and maybe make the vertical stabs longer.

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## Moscow

there seems to be two internal weapons bay in the above picture


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## Luftwaffe

Congrats to Russians it has a raptorish design but over all i like it thats just westernish design, this is the prototype i am certain the first production model would be an awesome.


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## owais.usmani

http://paralay.iboards.ru/download/file.php?id=8746&mode=view


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## owais.usmani

http://paralay.iboards.ru/download/file.php?id=8746&mode=view


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## Red Dwarf

> The plane was piloted honored test pilot *Sergei Bogdan* Russia.


Where i can find more info about him ?.


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## owais.usmani




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## owais.usmani




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## RPK

Red Dwarf said:


> Where i can find more info about him ?.

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## Novice09

gr8 work on photoshop....

Do you think that they will try such move in first flight of 1st prototype


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## tyagi



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## gogbot

Excellent work from the Sukhoi Team. 

Keep in Mind everyone this is still the Prototype PAK-FA.
Much like YF-23 .






There will still be design alterations till we get a final PV-1, of the PAK-FA.

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## adatta

see the beast here 
Âåñòè.Ru: Ðîññèéñêèé èñòðåáèòåëü-"íåâèäèìêà" ïðåâçîéäåò F-35


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## adatta

its too sexy to handle......


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## mean_bird

First views from the top



and a video

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## adatta

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2966/pakv.jpg

high resolution...you can see parts from very close


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## jha



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## adatta



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## gogbot

These concepts were spot on.


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## Tejas-MkII

Active user:77

Seem like all the active members of PDF are here only...


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## gogbot

Tejas-MkII said:


> Active user:77
> 
> Seem like all the active members of PDF are here only...



Its not everyday that a New fighter jet is unveiled.

Let alone a 5th generation one.

I can speak with certainty that everyone on all Defense forums are a Buzz about this Beast.


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## mean_bird

Better quality top views






View attachment 7ecd2021a11f18b456921545b2e007ce.jpg




flying alongside the flanker...nice for comparison purposes





View attachment ab0eef3afad3bb4afa1e5e7995464bb8.jpg

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## mean_bird

First views from the top



Better quality top views






View attachment 7ecd2021a11f18b456921545b2e007ce.jpg




flying alongside the flanker...nice for comparison purposes





View attachment ab0eef3afad3bb4afa1e5e7995464bb8.jpg










and a video

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## gogbot

*Russia's PAK FA Prototype Makes Maiden Flight *



08:00 GMT, January 29, 2010 MOSCOW | Russia's prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 45-minute maiden flight on Friday in the Far East, Russian television reported, according to RIA Novosti.

The flight had been postponed for 24 hours due to poor weather conditions in Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the prototype is being tested.

"The plane showed a superb performance. It has met all our expectations for the maiden flight," said Olga Kayukova, a spokesperson for the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer.

*Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials earlier said the stealth fighter jet, with a range of up to 5,500 km, would enter service with the Air Force in 2015.*

*Russia's fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.*

The PAK FA is to be equipped with the most advanced technology and armed with next-generation high-precision weaponry.

*India, which has a long history of defense relations with Moscow, remains Russia's sole partner in the project.*

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25&#37; share in design and development in the project. It has also sought to modify Sukhoi's single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter India's Air Force wants. 

defence.professionals | defpro.com

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## DaRk WaVe

*Congratulations Indians *

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## marcos98

PAF TOH GAYIIII........MUAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Relucent

EmO GiRl said:


> *Congratulations Indians *



Thanks! 
I am like goin mad right now!!!.Have spent the whole time typing and thinkin PAKFA!!!.This thing is a beast!Yesterday i was dreamin of this and today i see its test flight !!.I think i am gonna go blind by its awesomeness


----------



## SinoIndusFriendship

EmO GiRl said:


> *Congratulations Indians *



I can say with confidence now MRCA contract is going to Russia! 

Congratulations Russians for this stellar achievement and Indians for choosing the right partner!

Baby is on fire!!!


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## Trichy

PAK-FA the NEW FACE OF FIGHTER


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## gogbot

Thomas said:


> I can see one stealth aspect it doesn't have that the F-22 does. It has no iridium-tin oxide coating (Gold canopy). Which is used to reflect radar waves away from the cockpit.



Its just not visible that Photo.

You can clearly observe it in this one.


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## Relucent

"MRCA contract is going to Russia!" 

I doubt that.


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## Trichy

ssheppard said:


> There you go....Its not a clean Pic ....but ...better than nothing...




It is F-22 Rapter


----------



## gogbot

I am surprised Indian Media has not gone rabid over this news.

where are they ?


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## DaRk WaVe

marcos98 said:


> PAF TOH GAYIIII........MUAHAHAHAHAHA



nopes we are working on ways to bring it down

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## gogbot

Relucent said:


> "MRCA contract is going to Russia!"
> 
> I doubt that.



Unless the Mig-35 is really the best one there.

Despite the political reasons for not getting it. 

Its still a good plane that can be picked.


----------



## Adios Amigo

marcos98 said:


> PAF TOH GAYIIII........MUAHAHAHAHAHA



hahahaha, chill out bro, pray god we never go to fight with each other and just keep these toys as show pieces as most of the Europe does.

BTW PAF will put its faith in Jxx and buy when India acquires pakfa in its inventory, Thats must for it to maintain the balance. Until then there is a lot of time to smoke out our gasess

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## gogbot

adeos amigo said:


> hahahaha, chill out bro, pray god we never go to fight with each other and just keep these toys as show pieces as most of the Europe does.



Agreed. 

Also dont forget to put then in Video Games 
How else will be ever fly it


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## fsoul

Great work Russia, the beast is beautiful darling, dreaming to see it in Indian skies very soon.


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## Spitfighter

14 members and 53 GUESTS!!!!! 

wow, I've never seen such an active thread!


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## Relucent

adeos amigo said:


> hahahaha, chill out bro, pray god we never go to fight with each other and just keep these toys as show pieces as most of the Europe does.
> 
> BTW PAF will put its faith in Jxx and buy when India acquires pakfa in its inventory, Thats must for it to maintain the balance. Until then there is a lot of time to smoke out our gasess



I wish the same too!.Don't wanna see a scratch on those babes.
Hey u serious abt china producing JXX by 2017??.I mean russia started working on this thing in 1990.Its 2010 when they managed a test flight.As far as i know the chineese havent even started serious work on Jxx.
By the way id like to thank all pakistani members for such good reception of this craft.


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## Mrityunjay Rai

Relucent said:


> I wish the same too!.Don't wanna see a scratch on those babes.
> Hey u serious abt china producing JXX by 2017??.I mean russia started working on this thing in 1990.Its 2010 when they managed a test flight.As far as i know the chineese havent even started serious work on Jxx.
> By the way id like to thank all pakistani members for such good reception of this craft.



Whats the point to discuss the Jxx here .Just chill gu sy its prototype only . Dont spread hate.

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## gogbot

Relucent said:


> I wish the same too!.Don't wanna see a scratch on those babes.
> Hey u serious abt china producing JXX by 2017??.I mean russia started working on this thing in 1990.Its 2010 when they managed a test flight.As far as i know the chineese havent even started serious work on Jxx.
> By the way id like to thank all pakistani members for such good reception of this craft.



Don't underestimate China.

They have been doing industrial espionage for the last 20 years.
Under admission by the US they have accumulate or developed the capability to produce a 5th gen jet.

They can have the plane in one form or the other before the end of the decade.

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## Myth_buster_1

No offense but i am bit disappointed at the Russians on this one. The appearance of PAK-FA design looks no where as stealthy as F-22 or even F-35 but I am not denying that the Plane is a 5th generation Stealth air craft. The rear of PAK-FA is exposed for IRST systems which have the capability to detect BVR. belly of PAK-FA is not as sleek as F-22 and F-35 meaning the RCS is not going to be as less as the American stealth fighter. 


No offense but to me in this pic the PAKFA looks more like Su-27 from the belly then a stealth fighter like F-22 or F-35.

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## Tejas-MkII

It seem like more F-35 to me from top..


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## DaRk WaVe

I know you are all happy but don't post soooo many threads...


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## Luftwaffe

F-35 is dead meat for PAK-FA...) i know someone is gonna burn with this statement but i already ignored xyz)

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## hindustan

beautyful and powerful 

i like to see as fast as possible in IAF 

good work


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## DaRk WaVe

Higher resolution, you can see every inch of plane in it...

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## Super Falcon

agreed with growler pak-fa is nuts russians are making fool of india i think Latest F 15 eagle have a kill on it i dont see pakfa capable ruling over any 5 generation fighter jet im not doing this becoz of it is for india but reality is that so much hype was created waste trillions of dollars on this machine is in garbage bag no use any latest 4 gen fighter jet will bring this pak fa down

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## Adios Amigo

Relucent said:


> I wish the same too!.Don't wanna see a scratch on those babes.
> Hey u serious abt china producing JXX by 2017??.I mean russia started working on this thing in 1990.Its 2010 when they managed a test flight.As far as i know the chineese havent even started serious work on Jxx.
> By the way id like to thank all pakistani members for such good reception of this craft.



Nothing for sure about Jxx can be said, but i truly believe it will make its maiden flight b/w 2012 and 2015, china has started work back in 1990s. there may be two programs, and we have seen plenty of pics and concepts and i believe it will be really close those concepts as was the case of pakfa. And also not to forget the recent pics and videos of its avionics. surely china is behind then Russia in aviation but its catching real fast. Induction of both Pakfa and Jxx will take at least 10 years.

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## Kinshuk

Awesome man just too Awesome!!!! it is a beautiful looking machine but I won't say better looking thn raptor.. They both are in the same league if we talk about looks. But who is better, we will see later..


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## Relucent

gogbot said:


> Don't underestimate China.
> 
> They have been doing industrial espionage for the last 20 years.
> Under admission by the US they have accumulate or developed the capability to produce a 5th gen jet.
> 
> They can have the plane in one form or the other before the end of the decade.



HMMMM.......i get your point.


----------



## hindustan

palne is soo beautyful and powerful 

want to see fast as soon as possible in IAF


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## Kinshuk

As gobot said, don't underestimate chinese. They are the fastest people in the world.


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## Super Falcon

nothing more than a crap


----------



## pak-yes

well Americans have a long experience in making stealth air crafts and this is of course Russia's first try.So it's not that Bad.


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## Super Falcon

i think it is old face of gihter jets and u can't say it is 5 gen fighter jet for sure


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## owais.usmani



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## hindustan

Super Falcon said:


> agreed with growler pak-fa is nuts russians are making fool of india i think Latest F 15 eagle have a kill on it i dont see pakfa capable ruling over any 5 generation fighter jet im not doing this becoz of it is for india but reality is that so much hype was created waste trillions of dollars on this machine is in garbage bag no use any latest 4 gen fighter jet will bring this pak fa down




yaa why not you can shoot down from your gun 

pls borhter first see alll the technical details then say some thing

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## DaRk WaVe

Spitfighter said:


> 14 members and 53 GUESTS!!!!!
> 
> wow, I've never seen such an active thread!



on every forum whole Traffic is 'converged' on PAK-FA


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## Super Falcon

i agreee sir that it is good plane but it is not 5 generation for sure what ever u say it is not stealth similar to SU 37 details


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## jarnee

gogbot said:


> I am surprised Indian Media has not gone rabid over this news.
> 
> where are they ?



who idiots kuch expose kar rahe hai!! .. You know some of our Hindi channels ..prefer Baba / Jotshi business / Fog Delay stories over these magnificent achivements.

i am sure you will find this on NewsX, Times Now or CNN IBN.
Dont expect India TV Or News 24 to mention it


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## gogbot

thanks to all members for posting awesome pic's


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## Myth_buster_1

Super Falcon said:


> i agreee sir that it is good plane but it is not 5 generation for sure what ever u say it is not stealth similar to SU 37 details



In this post to make it look more mature, you could have said.... In terms of looks so far PAK-FA is not as good as F-22 and F-35 and has a lot of similarities with SU-27 from the bottom and YF-23. just trying to help you.


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## ptldM3

I think we can all relate to this:

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## booo

Super Falcon said:


> i agreee sir that it is good plane but it is not 5 generation for sure what ever u say it is not stealth similar to SU 37 details



No body here can discuss about the capabilities or stealthiness of PAK-FA since everyone here saw the pictures just today. and no one knows any details except for the pictures.

I will give you the details of the first indian idiot who says india will conduct surgical strikes using pak-fa. then both of you can fight. okay?

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## jha

KHOOB BHAALO.....


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## sivadreams

EmO GiRl said:


> nopes we are working on ways to bring it down



Both of you don t get too emotional here.


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## Tejas-MkII

Finally indian media wake-up atleast print one

Russian 5th generation fighter makes its maiden flight - Europe - World - The Times of India

Russian 5th generation fighter makes its maiden flight

PTI, 29 January 2010, 02:00pm ISTText Size:|Topics:maiden flight
5th generation fighter

MOSCOW: Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which is a joint project with India, today made a "succesful" maiden flight in the 

country's far east, boosting hopes that the stealth fighter may be ready for induction in the next five years. 

"The 5th generation fighter made its maiden flight at Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The flight lasted about 45 minutes and was a success," Sukhoi Corporation's spokesperson Olga Kayukova told state-run 'Rossiya 24' TV. 

Describing the flight as a textbook, she said, "all the expectations of the scientists were met". 

With the aircraft getting airborne, Russia is the second country in the world to produce a 5th generation fighter, *which is 90 per cent made up of composite fibre. *

Sukhoi's KNAAPO aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur is reported to have built three prototypes of FGFA with the technical name T-50 under its PAK FA project to rival US Lockheed F-22 Raptor and its newer version F-35. 

Under an agreement signed in October 2007, India has also joined the FGFA project by taking a 50 per cent investment stake in the project. For the Indian Air Force, a lighter, two-seater version is to be developed to meet its specific requirements. 

The Russian Air Force intends to begin the induction of FGFA from 2015, *India is also expected to induct at least 250 combat jets, which would be manufactured by HAL - the nodal partner of Sukhoi in the project. *


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## Ultimate Warrior

Finally the forum returns to its glory, we are all discussing defense and not trolls. Keep it up guys.

*The spy satellites from all over the world must have keeping a eye on the beast.*

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## booo

I couldnt find the plane's number. anyone??


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## sivadreams

Ultimate Warrior said:


> Finally the forum returns to its glory, we are all discussing defense and not trolls. Keep it up guys.
> 
> *The spy satellites from all over the world must have keeping a eye on the beast.*



Well said... An observation is if there is nothing to speak about then people troll...


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## ptldM3

can someone copy and past a picture from the following sit, my computer isn't letting me. 

Page 173, post #2588

Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

It's an extreemly high quality, close up. Very close.


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## Sapper

Except from the engine exhaust nozzles, every thing else just screams stealth.
Good Going Russia.
Best of Luck India.

Regards,
Sapper

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## owais.usmani

ptldM3 said:


> can someone copy and past a picture from the following sit, my computer isn't letting me.
> 
> Page 173, post #2588
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA
> 
> It's an extreemly high quality, close up. Very close.



I have already posted it on this thread.

Any ways, for your request, here it is again:

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## Ultimate Warrior

*Russia's future fighter makes its maiden flight*

MOSCOW (PTI): Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which is a joint project with India, Friday made a "succesful" maiden flight in the country's far east, boosting hopes that the stealth fighter may be ready for induction in the next five years.

"The 5th generation fighter made its maiden flight at Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The flight lasted about 45 minutes and was a success," Sukhoi Corporation's spokesperson Olga Kayukova told state-run 'Rossiya 24' TV.

Describing the flight as a textbook, she said, All the expectations of the scientists were met.

With the aircraft getting airborne, Russia is the second country in the world to produce a 5th generation fighter, which is 90 per cent made up of composite fibre.

Sukhoi's KNAAPO aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur is reported to have built three prototypes of FGFA with the technical name T-50 under its PAK FA project to rival US Lockheed F-22 Raptor and its newer version F-35.

Under an agreement signed in October 2007, India has also joined the FGFA project by taking a 50 per cent investment stake in the project. For the Indian Air Force, a lighter, two-seater version is to be developed to meet its specific requirements.

*The Russian Air Force intends to begin the induction of FGFA from 2015. India is also expected to induct at least 250 combat jets, which would be manufactured by HAL - the nodal partner of Sukhoi in the project.*

The Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has a 25 per cent share of design and development work in FGFA, with India contributing largely to composites, cockpit and avionics.

*The Indian systems onboard would be mission computers, navigation systems, most of the cockpit displays, the counter measure dispensing. The Russian expertise in Titanium structures would be complimented by India's experience in composites for the new fighter.*

*The Indian version of the futuristic fighter will also have weapon of Indian origin including Astra, the beyond visual range missile being developed by the DRDO.*

At the initial stages, 500 FGFA are to be developed with options kept open for both Russian and Indian Air Force.

*While the Russian military has ordered 200 single seaters and 50 twin seaters, the IAF has projected 200 twin seaters and 50 single seaters. *


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## ptldM3

^^^ Thank you. If you click the top of the picture it expands.

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## Lankan Ranger

Thomas said:


> lol, cut the guy a break he is excited.


*
I am happy because Russian weapons available to majority of Asian countries, In the future you can see PAK FA fighters in Asia. *


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## booo

*Sukhoi Company launches flight tests of PAK FA advanced tactical frontline fighter
*

Moscow, January 29, 2010 &#8211; Today Komsomolsk-on-Amur witnessed the debut flight of a prototype of advanced fighter of the 5th generation. The aircraft piloted by Sukhoi test-pilot Sergey Bogdan spent 47 minutes in the air and successfully landed on the factory runway.

The flight went successfully meeting all task assigned. &#8220;In the course of the flight we&#8217;ve conducted initial evaluation of the aircraft controllability, engine performance and primary systems operation, the aircraft had retracted and extracted the landing gear. The aircraft performed excellently at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot&#8221;, - said Sergey Bogdan.

Compared to the previous generation fighters PAK FA possesses a number of unique features combining the functionality of both attack aircraft and fighter plane.

The 5th generation fighter is equipped with brand-new avionics suite integrating &#8220;electronic pilot&#8221; functionality, as well as advanced phased-array antenna radar. This significantly decreases pilot load and allows him to focus upon completion of tactical missions. New aircraft on-board equipment allows real-time data exchange not only with ground based control systems, but also within the flight group.

Composites application and innovative technologies, aerodynamics of the aircraft, measures applied to decrease the engine signature provide for the unprecedented small radar cross section in radar, optical and infrared range. This significantly improves combat effectiveness against air and ground targets at any time of the day in both visible and instrument meteorological conditions.

&#8220;Today we&#8217;ve embarked on an extensive flight test programme of the 5th generation fighter. This is a great success of both Russian science and design school. This achievement rests upon a cooperation team comprised of more than a hundred of our suppliers and strategic partners. PAK FA programme advances Russian aeronautics together with allied industries to an entirely new technological level. These aircraft, together with upgraded 4th generation fighters will define Russian Air Force potential for the next decades. Sukhoi plans to further elaborate on the PAK FA programme which will involve our Indian partners. I am strongly convinced that our joint project will excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening the defense power of Russian and Indian Air Forces, but also gain a significant share of the world market&#8221;, - said Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi Company Director General commenting on the launch of the flight test programme.

Link

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## Super Falcon

Sapper said:


> Except from the engine exhaust nozzles, every thing else just screams stealth.
> Good Going Russia.
> Best of Luck India.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper







hahahahahhaahhaha good intelligent reply staelth means no radars can see it but its engines exhaust provide enemy radar of clear pic of pakfa and tell u what it is copy of YF fighter jet of usa but not better than real YF 22


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## Myth_buster_1

Sapper said:


> Except from the engine exhaust nozzles, every thing else just screams stealth.
> Good Going Russia.
> Best of Luck India.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



The entire air intake is not impressive enough, infact it has alot of similarities with Su-27 air intake. Check out F-35 and F-22 air intakes.. the belly is just flat while the PAK-FA is not.


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## Jako

This is just a prototype....the engine used during the trials will not actually power the ones to be inducted.....well pakfa looks grt ,i jus love it.....but it dissapointed a bit cnnsidering the hype it created.....still its the raptorski....the king of the kill!


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## ptldM3

Finally some pics.


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## Trichy

grey boy 2 said:


> CONGRATULATION  to my Indian friends, nice looking beast ! A picture i found, enjoy;
> 
> View attachment 3680491bd66132de56e2c1941bcc6dd9.jpg



It is a Mig 1.44 TD


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## Novice09

Super Falcon said:


> agreed with growler pak-fa is nuts russians are making fool of india i think Latest F 15 eagle have a kill on it i dont see pakfa capable ruling over any 5 generation fighter jet im not doing this becoz of it is for india but reality is that so much hype was created waste trillions of dollars on this machine is in garbage bag no use any latest 4 gen fighter jet will bring this pak fa down



kisi ko images se hi mirchi lag gayi hai Just imagine what will happen ones this jet will be in IAF's inventory. 

Super Falcon is coming to shoot down this jet (PAK FA) in his suuupeer duupper indigenous 4.5+++++++ jet

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## navtrek

PAK-FA takes to the sky

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## navtrek




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## Sapper

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahahhaahhaha good intelligent reply staelth means no radars can see it but its engines exhaust provide enemy radar of clear pic of pakfa and tell u what it is copy of YF fighter jet of usa but not better than real YF 22



Dear,

My post was to complement PAK-FA, instead you twisted it against it.

Stealth features are optimized for frontal aspect, not rear. I am sure the rear aspect stealth of even F22 and F35 is not that good, but comparing them to PAK-FA, they are still far far ahead.

DO remember that this is just prototype and will get improved over time.

Regards,
Sapper


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## DANGER-ZONE

well well well,look wat we got here.
congratulations Indians and Russians,we finally saw PAK-FA,with an awesome side view.
its rear part look cheap and landing gears too similar to old birds even no new jet engine.but yes its first prototype,have to go a long way.

it doesn't look like to those fantasy bird that we use to see.but some how looks similar to f22.
well done


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## sivadreams

Kudos lets see if we get more info on tech specs....!

Congrats India for the investment and Russia for its advancement into nextgen technology.


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## marcos98

another nice video....

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## Trichy

grey boy 2 said:


> CONGRATULATION  to my Indian friends, nice looking beast ! A picture i found, enjoy;
> 
> View attachment 3680491bd66132de56e2c1941bcc6dd9.jpg



MiG 1.44 TD not PAK-FA


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> No offense but i am bit disappointed at the Russians on this one. The appearance of PAK-FA design looks no where as stealthy as F-22 or even F-35 but I am not denying that the Plane is a 5th generation Stealth air craft. *The rear of PAK-FA is exposed for IRST *systems which have the capability to detect BVR..



So is the F-35...




Growler said:


> belly of PAK-FA is not as sleek as F-22 and F-35 meaning the RCS is not going to be as less as the American stealth fighter.
> .



What about the YF-23? it has a similar belly to the Fakfa, and the YF-23 is said to have a smaller rcs than the YF-22. Also Sukhoi has said it is vertually invisible to radar.



Super Falcon said:


> agreed with growler pak-fa is nuts russians are making fool of india i think Latest F 15 eagle have a kill on it i dont see pakfa capable ruling over any 5 generation fighter jet im not doing this becoz of it is for india but reality is that so much hype was created waste trillions of dollars on this machine is in garbage bag no use any latest 4 gen fighter jet will bring this pak fa down



*How can you tell an aircrafts capabilities just by looking at it*? The Russians have reduced the RCS dramatically on the SU-35, so this should be a leap. About the F-15, the SU-30mki can match it, and the SU-35 is superior to the MKI. The F-15 would have a hard time trying to kill something it can't see. Moreover, the Pakfa is to have AESA and a new generation of weapons.

Remember this is *just a prototype*, the final product will look very different, i'm sure. Everying looks stealthy except for the rear, but i excpect that to be changed to some extent. 

Look at the F-22 and YF-22 prototypes, they're very different.

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## Supersonic26

danger-zone said:


> well well well,look wat we got here.
> congratulations Indians and Russians,we finally saw PAK-FA,with an awesome side view.
> its rear part look cheap and landing gears too similar to old birds even no new jet engine.but yes its first prototype,have to go a long way.
> 
> it doesn't look like to those fantasy bird that we use to see.but some how looks similar to f22.
> well done



buddy please check pics and vids thread in indian defence section. There is top view of pak-fa and check my profile. i added Pak-fa pic. Wow it is a beauty and a beast both.


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## DANGER-ZONE

and for Pakistani bros.
stop making fun of their new aircraft,they some how have started a stealth project which is easily viewable to everyone that means they can get a complete successful fighter after few years with more development.
but what we got in answer NOTHING.!

and USAs airframe designs doesn't reflect stealthy or non-stealthy nature of any aircraft.no metallic materials also not visible to radar.stealth design is a combination of not metallic or composites air frame and radar rays reflecting design,which can be different to f22 or f117.u can see b2,f117,f22 n f35 are different in designs. 
so better not make fun and wait for details.
and hope that our country do something for this.

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## sivadreams

EmO GiRl said:


> *Congratulations Indians *



I think the Russians need to be congratulated first as its their technology and a very little will be from Indian labs except for the investment.

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## Tejas-MkII

Now next target FEB 2 hopefully this time......


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## BlackSonic

Novice09 said:


> *Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 66 (25 members and 41 guests)*
> 
> As I thought... this thread is on fire

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## DANGER-ZONE

navtrek said:


>



awesome view.
but y it is not having Indian air force icon n RAF icon, although its co-development


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## Supersonic26

Check my avatar. Its latest pic of PAK-FA top view.


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## Super Falcon

only time will tell that how this crap u call it 5 generation no part of its body looks like true stealth russians are making full of u aur humein mirchi nahe lagti in khilona ko dekh ka kyonka russia apko ullu bana raha hai aur hum khush ho rahe hai ye bat apko bhi bata hai ka app log russia ka hato kitni bar ulllu ban chuka ho yad karo aircraft carrier


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## ptldM3

danger-zone said:


> awesome view.
> but y it is not having Indian air force icon n RAF icon, although its co-development



It's just a prototype it's not even painted. I really want to see this plane in a dark grey or black paint scheme.




*Super Falcon *what's not stealthy? It has all the stealth features, nose, intakes, v-stabs, and smooth lines. Minus the conventianal engines nozzoles it looks similar to the YF-23, which was said to me more stealth than the YF-22. Even Gambit said it looked nice.

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## Super Falcon

ptldM3 said:


> It's just a prototype it's not even painted. I really want to see this plane in a dark grey or black paint scheme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Super Falcon *what's not stealthy? It has all the stealth features, nose, intakes, v-stabs, lines. Minus the conventianal engines nozzoles it looks similar to the YF-23, which was said to me more stealth than the YF-22. Even Gambit said it looked nice.




its intakes are similar to SU 27 woudent u russian make fool of india most of time when u sell ur equipment to them


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## ssheppard

Super Falcon said:


> its intakes are similar to SU 27 woudent u russian make fool of india most of time when u sell ur equipment to them



haan Miyan.....angoor Khatte hain......


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## Jako

Pakfa is an easy prey for the jf17!..lol


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## marcos98

BELLY SIDE LOOKS LIKE YF23


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## mrwarrior006

> its intakes are similar to SU 27 *woudent u russian make fool of india most of time when u sell ur equipment to them*



wat about s300, su30mki, brahmos.nuclear subs


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## ptldM3

Super Falcon said:


> its intakes are similar to SU 27 woudent u russian make fool of india most of time when u sell ur equipment to them



Wow...have you seen a close up of the intakes? If you look at the intakes from different angles they are completly different.

Look at the: bottom front, corners, and inside of the intakes, they are one of the most unique designs i have seen, they are completely different to the Flanker style intakes.

Besides, i think Sukhoi knows more than you.

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## cabatli_53

I do not know RCS materials-paints' quality but The stealth design of Pak-FA looks a littile bit poor... It looks like a mixture of Mig-Su series aircrafts and I think Pak-Fa can never compete with USA aircraft technology...

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## gogbot

BlackSonic said:


>




So that's how you get an F-22 Raptor


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## Mrityunjay Rai

cabatli_53 said:


> I do not know RCS materials-paints' quality but The stealth design of Pak-FA looks a littile bit poor... It looks like a mixture of Mig-Su series aircrafts and I think Pak-Fa can never compete with USA aircraft technology...



W OW what an analisys without even knowing the facts

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## DaRk WaVe

sivadreams said:


> I think the Russians need to be congratulated first as its their technology and a very little will be from Indian labs except for the investment.



atleast some one has guts to accept it


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## Super Falcon

what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos

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## brahmastra

booo said:


> *Sukhoi Company launches flight tests of PAK FA advanced tactical frontline fighter
> *
> 
> Moscow, January 29, 2010  Today Komsomolsk-on-Amur witnessed the debut flight of a prototype of advanced fighter of the 5th generation. The aircraft piloted by Sukhoi test-pilot Sergey Bogdan spent 47 minutes in the air and successfully landed on the factory runway.
> 
> The flight went successfully meeting all task assigned. In the course of the flight weve conducted initial evaluation of the aircraft controllability, engine performance and primary systems operation, the aircraft had retracted and extracted the landing gear. The aircraft performed excellently at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot, - said Sergey Bogdan.
> 
> Compared to the previous generation fighters PAK FA possesses a number of unique features combining the functionality of both attack aircraft and fighter plane.
> 
> The 5th generation fighter is equipped with brand-new avionics suite integrating electronic pilot functionality, as well as advanced phased-array antenna radar. This significantly decreases pilot load and allows him to focus upon completion of tactical missions. New aircraft on-board equipment allows real-time data exchange not only with ground based control systems, *but also within the flight group*.
> 
> 
> Link



our airforce really lacks this and we really needed it. I'm not sure Su-30 MKI got that feature but we should upgrade/add that feature to MKI if its not there. because with the help of sukhoi's radar and with addition of real-time data exchange within the flight group we technically won't need more AWACS. Please,correct me if i'm wrong.and sorry to bring su-30 in the thread of PAK-FA.


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## cabatli_53

rai.mrityunjay said:


> W OW what an analisys without even knowing the facts



Sometimes, You do not need any datas to make a statement. Pictures talk more louder than Words, Because We are talking about 5th generation "Stealth" aircrafts...5th Generation Aircrafts Stealth technologies are based on not only RCS materials and Paints but also shapes of objects you designed... 

I hope You do not claim that Russian Electronics, Countermeasure, Radar technologies are far ahead of USA to indicate PAK-FA one step ahead of USA F-35 or F-22...

Even If you do not know anything about stealth materials and working principles, I advise you to check underbody of russian Pak-FA. How a deep circuitousy shapes it has. It looks like a 4th generation aircraft waiting to send radar pulses back to radar receivers to make her detected by enemies...







Got the differences now?

Actually, I never count Pak-Fa like a 5th generation stealth aircraft with above design...


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## Mrityunjay Rai

Super Falcon said:


> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos



sir ,

I am speechless . Russia is also changing its current Su-33 fleet with Mig-29k . Again Russia is using Nimitz class carrier so why would they sell it.Akula-II also called Nerpa is not old sub you can verify it by Google. And last you said that Brmhose is failure .


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## kashith

Super Falcon said:


> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos



How is it a failure..??Just because it is not looking like f-22 does not means it is not stealthy??Does your airforce has a fifth generation plane..It is only the second 5th generation plane in the world.Its engines too are sheer monsters...Russians are best in thrust vectoring..SU-30 are in service with Russia and MKI is an export version.Akula is old?? they are not decommissioning it yet...it is still the most dreaded of subs in the west and you think it is worthless??Dude even Chinese are not making fun of this plane then why are you doing so?Most other members have complimented Russians except you....


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## gogbot

EmO GiRl said:


> atleast some one has guts to accept it



Well , we were going to enjoy till some one else crash the Party.

the prototype is purely Russian tech, paid for with Rubbles and Ruppes

The Production models of PAK-FA will incorporate limited Indian Tech. Such as sub-systems.

Which will increase more for FGFA.

But still we get the Plane

And we get insight into Russian Design and development process. 

We get full ToT, and HAL will manufacture the plane in India. 

Any way you look at it, we get 5th gen fighter and Tech on how to build our own.


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## DaRk WaVe

Super Falcon said:


> i agreee sir that it is good plane but it is not 5 generation for sure* what ever u say it is not stealth similar to SU 37 details*





Super Falcon said:


> hahahahahhaahhaha good intelligent reply staelth means no radars can see it but its engines exhaust provide enemy radar of clear pic of pakfa and *tell u what it is copy of YF fighter jet of usa but not better than real YF 22*





Super Falcon said:


> only time will tell that how this crap u call it 5 generation no part of its body looks like true stealth russians are making full of u aur humein mirchi nahe lagti in khilona ko dekh ka kyonka russia apko ullu bana raha hai aur hum khush ho rahe hai ye bat apko bhi bata hai ka app log russia ka hato kitni bar ulllu ban chuka ho yad karo aircraft carrier





Super Falcon said:


> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos




what the hell is this

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## Mrityunjay Rai

cabatli_53 said:


> Sometimes, You do not need any datas to make a statement. Pictures talk more louder than Words, Because We are talking about 5th generation "Stealth" aircrafts...5th Generation Aircrafts Stealth technologies are based on not only RCS materials and Paints but also shapes of objects you designed...
> 
> Even If you do not know anything about stealth materials and working principles, I advise you to check underbody of russian Pak-FA. How a deep circuitousy shapes it has. It is like waiting to send radar pulses back to radar receivers to make her detected by enemies...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got the differences now?
> 
> Actually, I never count Pak-Fa like a 5th generation stealth aircraft with above design...



First I must tel you that this so called "deep circuitousy shapes" dose not effect the stealth feature. Just little bit knowledge of aerodynamics would help you. every stealth jet would not be a replica of western jets. I admit that there is lots of room for improovment but again its only a prototype . engins are not that are intended to be. we don know about actual RCS, how many wapons it will carry etc.

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## gogbot

brahmastra said:


> our airforce really lacks this and we really needed it. I'm not sure Su-30 MKI got that feature but we should upgrade/add that feature to MKI if its not there. because with the help of sukhoi's radar and with addition of real-time data exchange within the flight group we technically won't need more AWACS. Please,correct me if i'm wrong.and sorry to bring su-30 in the thread of PAK-FA.



Dude 

MKI's totally have data links between themselves.

They are always linked into one another in real-time.

They are Mini-AWACS, Capable of coordinating with aircraft other than MKI's as well

I am not sure about the rest of the fleet.

MMRCA plane will have it as well, if it is a need.

May be Mig's as well after their upgrades

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## booo

gogbot said:


> Dude
> 
> MKI's totally have data links between themselves.
> 
> They are always linked into one another in real-time.
> 
> They are Mini-AWACS, Capable of coordinating with aircraft other than MKI's as well
> 
> I am not sure about the rest of the fleet.
> 
> MMRCA plane will have it as well, if it is a need.
> 
> May be Mig's as well after their upgrades



I think it was first used in mig25 foxbats. They were capable of sharing the target data and they were the first russian fighters with "look down shoot down radar"(what ever that means).


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## Adios Amigo

Super Falcon said:


> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos



Man, i don't get a single word of this crap. There is no punctuation, not a single full stop used in the whole paragraph, not even at the damn end.
doesn't make any sense

please give it a read yourself and then identify your mistake.

regards

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## cabatli_53

rai.mrityunjay said:


> First I must tel you that this so called "deep circuitousy shapes" dose not effect the stealth feature. Just little bit knowledge of aerodynamics would help you. .



Ahh Really ?  It means USA engineers have been working for nothing to integrate all those big parts, engine, electronics into a stealth shapes... Even They are so stupid that They integrate all A-G and A-A weapons into the body and envisaging to carry less munitions with a plump body design to improve stelth characters of F-35, F-22... Indian experts told that everything is for nothing...


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## booo

*A new stealth fighter has made its maiden flight in Russia's far east.*

The Sukhoi T-50 jet spent 47 minutes in the air over Komsomolsk-on-Amur and test pilot Sergei Bogdan said "it is easy and comfortable to pilot".

The jet - also known by the Russian designation PAK FA - is seen as a potential rival to the US F-22 Raptor, which first flew in 1997.

The "fifth generation" jet is designed to be invisible to radar. Russia's air force hopes to acquire it in 2015.

The new jet has been developed in partnership with India. It is seen as a significant milestone in Russia's efforts to modernise its Soviet-era military hardware.

Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan said he was convinced that the project would "excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening of the defence power of the Russian and Indian air forces, but also gain a significant share of the world market".

The company says the jet's stealth features considerably enhance its combat effectiveness in all weathers.

Its features include: all-weather capability, ability to use a take-off strip of just *300-400 metres*, capacity for sustained supersonic flight including repeated in-flight refuelling, advanced avionics, simultaneous attacks on air and ground targets. 

BBC News - Russia tests stealth fighter jet built by Sukhoi


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## toxic_pus

Super Falcon said:


> only time will tell that how this crap u call it 5 generation no part of its body looks like true stealth russians are making full of u aur humein mirchi nahe lagti in khilona ko dekh ka kyonka russia apko ullu bana raha hai aur hum khush ho rahe hai ye bat apko bhi bata hai ka app log russia ka hato kitni bar ulllu ban chuka ho yad karo aircraft carrier


Wake us up once you have doused that fire. Or when you have found sweet grapes. Meanwhile practice how to shoot down 'this crap' from your roof top, using a slingshot. I am sure you have already figured that out.

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## MaXimMaRz

If the structure is made in a way that it does not reflect the radar waves back to the radar is mechanically perfect. the Aero frame has to in a way that the reflections form it are irregular. rest is all chemicals in the paint and reduction of IR signature.


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## ptldM3

cabatli_53 said:


> *Sometimes, You do not need any datas *to make a statement. *Pictures talk more louder than Words*, Because We are talking about 5th generation "Stealth" aircrafts...5th Generation Aircrafts Stealth technologies are based on not only RCS materials and Paints but also shapes of objects you designed...



clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm sure Sukhoi specialists know more about stealth than an online worrior.




cabatli_53 said:


> I hope You do not claim that Russian Electronics, Countermeasure, Radar technologies are far ahead of USA to indicate PAK-FA one step ahead of USA F-35 or F-22..
> Even If you do not know anything about stealth materials and working principles, I advise you to *check underbody of russian Pak-FA*.



Have you heard of the YF-23? Check its "underbody"


Nice that you used a blury grainy picture of the Pakfa and nice clean pictures of the F-35 and F-22. If you take a painted Pakfa and place it next to an unpainted F-35 then the F-35 wouldn't look as nice either. Keep in mind the Pakfa is a *prototype.*



The nose is similar to the F-35, the intakes are a mix of F-22 and YF-23 and the side looks alot like the YF-23, so i fail to see what's not stealthy. If it had the Turkish flag on it would it be the super duper stealth fighter? Beside *Sukhoi said it's vertually invisible to radar*.

Lastly, *you don't like it leave*! You don't see me talking trash about Turkish toys such as T129 or soon to be F-35. No one needs your expert opinions.

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## paritosh

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahahhaahhaha good intelligent reply staelth means no radars can see it but its engines exhaust provide enemy radar of clear pic of pakfa and tell u what it is copy of YF fighter jet of usa but not better than real YF 22



IRST scanners aboard a plane can detect the exhaust plume....so every aircraft can be detected albeit at a very close range....

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## booo

cabatli_53 said:


> Ahh Really ?  It means USA engineers have been working for nothing to integrate all those big parts, engine, electronics into a stealth shapes... Even They are so stupid that They integrate all A-G and A-A weapons into the body and envisaging to carry less munitions with a plump body design to improve stelth characters of F-35, F-22... Indian experts told that everything is for nothing...



Putting random photos of american jets wont make your argument strong.

sorry to dissappoint you, but american cia stole a paper written by russian scientist about the stealthy geometric shapes to avoid radar detection and then they started working and improving over those formulas. so dont underestimate russians.

Thanks

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## DaRk WaVe

gogbot said:


> Well , we were going to enjoy till some one else crash the Party.
> 
> the prototype is purely Russian tech, paid for with Rubbles and Ruppes
> 
> The Production models of PAK-FA will incorporate limited Indian Tech. Such as sub-systems.
> 
> Which will increase more for FGFA.
> 
> But still we get the Plane
> 
> And we get insight into Russian Design and development process.
> 
> We get full ToT, and HAL will manufacture the plane in India.
> 
> Any way you look at it, we get 5th gen fighter and Tech on how to build our own.



from what i understand FGFA (the Indian PAKFA) will be different & it will take some time to have a twin seater, which is IAF doctrine

a bit older info


> *FGFA​*
> The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, *the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.*
> 
> *"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.
> *
> Speaking to mediapersons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. *India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.
> *
> The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.
> 
> The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.
> 
> According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.
> 
> *Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the AL-31 FP engine.*(actually its PAK-FA) He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.
> 
> The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.
> 
> Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.



note that it mentions that prototype will use *AL-31FP*, meaning we are yet to see *AL-41* getting operational??? 
correct me if i am wrong..


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## sancho

Some interesting pics from other forums, they show the internal weapon bays below closer and possibly even a missile bay on the wings, also it seems to have the L band radar arrays on the wings which was developed for Flankers too:

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## cabatli_53

ptldM3 said:


> clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm sure Sukhoi specialists know more about stealth than an online worrior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice that you used a blury grainy picture of the Pakfa and nice clean pictures of the F-35 and F-22. If you take a painted Pakfa and place it next to an unpainted F-35 then the F-35 wouldn't look as nice either.
> 
> And like i said it's just a *prototype*! It has all stealth features, besides the rear, which looks like a Flanker due to the wide nossles, but again it's a *prototype.*
> 
> The nose is similar to the F-35, the intakes are a mix of F-22 and YF-23 and the side looks alot like the YF-23, so i fail to see what's not stealthy. If it had the Turkish flag on it would it be the super duper stealth fighter? Beside *Sukhoi said it's vertually invisible to radar*.
> 
> Lastly, *you don't like it leave*! You don't see me talking trash about Turkish toys the such as T129 or soon to be F-35.



I am talking about deep circuitousy shapes of PAK-FA that can affect the stealth characters of an aircraft... Wheather It is painted or not, What makes the differences ? Did you develop a paint that enclose the deep shapes ? I do not suppose!!! 


When the subject became stealth 5th generation aircrafts, The Kings of those technologies are USA in World and The Stealth criterias are created by USA engineers so I am giving examples from USA stealth aircrafts... Turkish flag is hanged on F-35 or not... It is not about our subject... Did you see any single word about Turkey above ?

and While Russians are busy to modernisate their 3th generation Mig and Su's, USA has already started flying with state of art F-22, F-117 aircrafts on skies... Do not forget...


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## booo

EmO GiRl said:


> from what i understand FGFA (the Indian PAKFA) will be different & it will take some time to have a twin seater, which is IAF doctrine
> 
> a bit older info
> 
> 
> note that it mentions that prototype will use *AL-31FP*, meaning we are yet to see *AL-41* getting operational???
> correct me if i am wrong..





> The PAK FA will use on its first flights 2 Saturn 117S engines (about 14.5 tons of thrust each). The 117S is an advanced version of the AL-31F, but built with the experience gained in the AL-41F program. The Saturn AL-41F powered the Mikoyan MFI fighter (Project/Article 1.44). Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 tons of thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut.



Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## karan.1970

EmO GiRl said:


> atleast some one has guts to accept it



I dont know what else could it be.. The project is atleast 10 years old. India started participation in 2007. What will be interesting is the participation in ongoing improvements in avionics and software. And the amount of experiance that will provide to be reused in LCA and MCA


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## brahmastra

read hear how the stealth technology works, nothing to do with the 'flat belly'.

nice presentation on stealth technology. worth read it.

Stealth Technology Presentation


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## karan.1970

booo said:


> I think it was first used in mig25 foxbats. They were capable of sharing the target data and they were the first russian fighters with "look down shoot down radar"(what ever that means).



Here you go.. from wiki

*Radar*The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.[31] The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 4050 km.


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## Super Falcon

well whatever im sure that the pakfa is nit trye 5 generation fighter jet for sure


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## MAB

Finally some pics of this awesome fighter. I like the look of the fighter and all these comments of it not being a 5th generation fighter are totally ridicules because when Russia and India started this project it was clearly told that it would be a 5th gen not another 4th gen. People can't just say its not stealth just by looking at it and its just the prototype.

I also want to see some more pics if anyone can find them post them. Thanks.


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## MaXimMaRz

Russians are the like the "big daddy cool" in propulsion, i am sure they mastered the field of Aero foil structuring too before making PAK-FA....from the looks the aircraft looks amazing...lets see how it proves its self in future


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## tamir

I am sure the people designing this plane have far more knowledge than any of us here. Lets not use the F-22 as a benchmark for looks. 
This is the maiden flight (officially) and I am sure there will be a lot of adjustments made. So lets not jump to conclusions on the capability.

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## abdul1



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## ptldM3

cabatli_53 said:


> I am talking about deep circuitousy shapes of PAK-FA that can affect the stealth characters of an aircraft... Wheather It is painted or not, What makes the differences ?



You said the Pakfa looks poor, with a fresh coat of paint it wouldn't look so "poor", you also found the worst pic of the pakfa and compaired it to the F-35 and F-22.




cabatli_53 said:


> *Did you develop a paint that enclose the deep shapes *? I do not suppose!!!



If you're talking RAM, then yes.




cabatli_53 said:


> When the subject became stealth 5th generation aircrafts, The Kings of those technologies are USA in World and The Stealth criterias are created by USA engineers so I am giving examples from USA stealth aircrafts... *Turkish flag is hanged on F-35 or not... It is not about our subject*... Did you see any single word about Turkey above ?



I have read through many of your threads/posts and it's all about how great Turkish technology is, i havn't seen you bash Turkish technology, so why are you bashing Russian technology? Lets face it if Turkey came up with the Pakfa you would have different things to say.

Btw is hilarious that you claim the underbelly of the Pakfa isn't stealthy, check out the YF-23 then refrain.

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## Supersonic26

cabatli_53 said:


> Ahh Really ?  It means USA engineers have been working for nothing to integrate all those big parts, engine, electronics into a stealth shapes... Even They are so stupid that They integrate all A-G and A-A weapons into the body and envisaging to carry less munitions with a plump body design to improve stelth characters of F-35, F-22... Indian experts told that everything is for nothing...



Hello buddy how you so sure that above aircrafts are stealth? Didn't serbia droped dead one of american stealth bomber? Russia told to world that pak-fa will be more stealthy then F-22 raptor. They proved it to india by demonstration. Check original thread of PAK-FA. in that it clearly shown how much stealth PAK-FA is. Just because PAK-FA dont look like F-22 doesn't mean its not stealth. American stealth got problems buddy. Ask serbia about it. PAK-FA is the real stealth rather then F-22. American stealth been tested against serbia and the result whole world knows.


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## Moorkh

Super Falcon said:


> well whatever im sure that the pakfa is nit trye 5 generation fighter jet for sure


your wish

call it a 4th gen according to the chinese system then


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## DaRk WaVe

Thursday, October 22, 2009
Outlines of PAK FA

Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article:

1) Can hope for 10-15% PAKFA advantage over F-22 due to two decades of tech. development.
2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack.
3) OLS-35 probably detects Raptor on 100 km distance.
4) PAKFA's AESA radar has probably 1526 modules with overall power 18 KWt. Range for a big air target &#8211; 400. TWS/A = 60/16.
5) Active antennas in the wings and tail are probable. 
6) OLS with 360 deg.
7) Backward attacking missiles.
8) Has up to 12 Air-to-air missiles (if compact) in internal placement.
9) Two internal bays for WLRAAMs and LRAAMs up to 700 kg each. + 2 bays for short range missiles.
10) While Raptor can have up to 8 missiles in the internal bays.
11) WLRAAM 'Izdelie 810' is MiG-31 R-33 derivative. 400 km.
12) LRAAM 'Izdelie-180PD' is air-breath R-77 derivative. 250 km.
13) 'Izdelie-180' &#8211; solid-fuel R-77 derivative 110-140 km. With active and passive radar, homing on jammer.
14) Short range AAM &#8211; 'Izdelie-300' or K-MD IR matrix, double range of homing.
15) Kh-58UShKE
16) Kh-35
17) 500 kg guided and unguided bombs and cassette munition.
18) Intrafuselage cathapults UVKU-50L &#8211; up to 300 kg, UVKU-50U &#8211; up to 700 kg.
19) Internal bays total weight 2.000 kg
20) With + external hardpoints &#8211; 6.000 kg.
21) GSh-30 30 mm autocannon.
22) According to the plans &#8211; 430 planes must be built for RuAF.
23) Probably price $80 mil.
24) Will replace 339 Su-27 and 300 MiG-31

Defunct Humanity: Outlines of PAK FA

*PS: there are some points which are a bit lame & controversial*

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## cabatli_53

tamir said:


> I am sure the people designing this plane have far more knowledge than any of us here. Lets not use the F-22 as a benchmark for looks.
> This is the maiden flight (officially) and I am sure there will be a lot of adjustments made. So lets not jump to conclusions on the capability.





Supersonic26 said:


> Russia told to world that pak-fa will be more stealthy then F-22 raptor. They proved it to india by demonstration. Check original thread of PAK-FA. in that it clearly shown how much stealth PAK-FA is. Just because PAK-FA dont look like F-22 doesn't mean its not stealth.




For sure !!!  but If someone wants to make a comparisons between F-35-22 and Russian Pak-Fa at first look, Some facts should be enlightened. 


Simply !!!

If you wanna estimate the target detection capabilities of aircrafts, You should check the spacifications of AESA radars of aircrafts...

If you wanna estimate the electronic warfare capabilities of aircrafts, You should check the EW sensors...

If you wanna estimate engagement capabilities of aircrafts, You should check the ranges, seekeer heads, IR technologies( For IR guided missiles) and types of AA, AG missiles.. 

If you wanna estimate the stealth character of aircrafts, You should check "SHAPES, PA&#304;NTS and Materials"...

and There are only 1 stealth technology and working principles in World. You can not seperate it like Russian type and USA type...

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## DaRk WaVe

The pictures confirm weapons bay under belly & near the intake but this thing is different from the concepts

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## Stealth

Supersonic26 said:


> Hello buddy how you so sure that above aircrafts are stealth? Didn't serbia droped dead one of american stealth bomber? Russia told to world that pak-fa will be more stealthy then F-22 raptor. They proved it to india by demonstration. Check original thread of PAK-FA. in that it clearly shown how much stealth PAK-FA is. Just because PAK-FA dont look like F-22 doesn't mean its not stealth. American stealth got problems buddy. Ask serbia about it. PAK-FA is the real stealth rather then F-22. American stealth been tested against serbia and the result whole world knows.



For your kind information in Serbia only 117 knighthawk down. There is no B2 down information.

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## Ultimate Warrior

brahmastra said:


> our airforce really lacks this and we really needed it. I'm not sure Su-30 MKI got that feature but we should upgrade/add that feature to MKI if its not there. because with the help of sukhoi's radar and with addition of real-time data exchange within the flight group we technically won't need more AWACS. Please,correct me if i'm wrong.and sorry to bring su-30 in the thread of PAK-FA.



Leave aside our aircraft even Arjun Tank can exchange real time data within battle group.

"The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, several Arjun tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and try to eliminate him in a chase or ambush.

DRDO have completed Visualisation with Enhanced Digital Elevation Model and Soil Profile Analysis for MBT Arjun Simulator (VEDSAR). It will provide the Army with information on the shortest possible distance between two points, and the kind of obstacles present on the terrain."


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## albwd

Stealth is as Stealth does. All steath must have come from an initial industrial drawing, then its aero-dynamics is optimized by super-computers. I am no expert in plane design, but based on the comments, if it looks like a SU-27 or something, it's only natural. F-35 afterall maybe just a heavily digitally optimized version of F-16.

The significance of this plane is not weather it's a 5th or stealth, if it shows off great engineering of the frames, the significance is rather Russian industry is in great shape: they have the software and the machine tools. Well of course, the latter part usually comes out of Germany. 

My 2 could be wrong cents.


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## Super Falcon

by chance serbia bring that down only by chance they were firing blind one of their fire got hit to that stealth bomber and this also can happen with your stealth fighter jet no matter how much it is staelth but it is not invisible to naked eye


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## cabatli_53

Stealth said:


> For your kind information in Serbia only 117 knighthawk down. There is no B2 down information.



and If I am wrong, Correct me please..

F-117 has hitted with a IR SHORAD missile detected by E/O sensors, not by a radar.. It is not about stealth characters of aircraft... Every low flying object can be bringed down with this way...


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## booo

EmO GiRl said:


> The pictures confirm weapons bay under belly & near the intake but this thing is different from the concepts


maybe the covering panel for the hinges of wing attachment... 


x_man said:


> Yes I noticed that they are huge, but these are *NOT *store stations.
> 
> These are the covering panels for the hinges of elevon - wing attachments. A hard point may extend to them, but these panels cannot be used directly to put stores on. You will notice such panels ( in different shapes and sizes) on almost every tail less delta aircraft e.g. all models of Dassault Mirage family, Gripen, Eurofighter and even on Concorde. Have a look at the below pics, can you spot such hinges?

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## Myth_buster_1

ptldM3 said:


> So is the F-35...



Their is something called "stealth engine exhaust" which T-50 clearly lacks. Actually the rare of T-50 has alot of similarities with Su-27 family. 



> What about the YF-23? it has a similar belly to the Fakfa, and the YF-23 is said to have a smaller rcs than the YF-22. Also Sukhoi has said it is vertually invisible to radar.


no no. i meant to say T-50 seems to be a evolved flanker family more like a continuation of Su-27 30 35 etc. You dont see any of predecessor traits of Lockheed or Boeing in F-22 or F-35. Sukhoi HAL can claim anything they want to, i wont take anything from them seriously like T-50 is superior to F-35 and par with F-22. 
IMO T-50 is nothing but a advanced Su-35 in a stealth design. 



> Remember this is *just a prototype*, the final product will look very different, i'm sure. Everying looks stealthy except for the rear, but i excpect that to be changed to some extent.
> Look at the F-22 and YF-22 prototypes, they're very different.


Lol so I guess you are not satisfied with the current design? Well you have to live up with it now. US has a big big R&D budget thats why they had 3-4 different designs competing. Finally when YF-22 was chosen the First maiden flight was in 91 and after long time in 97 the first final concept F-22 was rolled out. and after a very long time in 2007 did the raptor cleared FOC in USAF. thats almost 16 years after first prototype. 
meaning thats almost 2027 FOC for final T-50 production plane! wow.. but thats not gonna happen and both india and russia have to live with this concept design. no time for further upgrades.

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## cabatli_53

ptldM3 said:


> I have read through many of your threads/posts and it's all about how great Turkish technology is, i havn't seen you bash Turkish technology,



Think it like Pakistan technology, Not Turkish technology...  If Turkey has developed something, It means Sooner or later, Pakistan will have same technologies.. Same for us too...


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## Srinivas

It looks like an awesome fighter. well done russia India should be proud for partnering this kind of project.  
Fifth generation aircraft should be judged by its capabilities rather than appearance and shapes. And one cannot judge the capabilities based on pics 
As far as i know there are two types of stealth technologies one will make use the shape of the aircraft to make it invisible to the radar.
second one is using RAM coatings on the body of the aircraft where shaping of the aircraft is not possible.
So it looks like the stealth is a combination of both types of technologies in F22 and PAK FA. On that note we cannot judge one fighter is inferior 

Secondly PAK FA is more maneuverable than F22 because of 3D thrust vectoring incorporated into it. 

Thirdly weapons pay load of PAK FA is more than F22 

There are new long range missiles under development which are deadlier 

Finally ruskies have designed the 5 th gen fighter at a low cost than Yankees.
All and all can't wait to see this fighter in Indian colours


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## MaXimMaRz

There is even an answer to stealth technology...
*Over the horizon Radar* or *OTH *


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## ASQ-1918

Good day for Russians.

Looks better then I excepted, and looks like it is still not finished, they rushed to show it.

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## Dark Angel

Remember guys this is a prototype 1, so there will be improvement further


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## cabatli_53

Growler said:


> Their is something called "stealth engine exhaust" which T-50 clearly lacks. Actually the rare of T-50 has alot of similarities with Su-27 family.
> 
> 
> i meant to say T-50 seems to be a evolved flanker family more like a continuation of Su-27 30 35 etc. You dont see any of predecessor traits of Lockheed or Boeing in F-22 or F-35. Sukhoi HAL can claim anything they want to, i wont take anything from them seriously like T-50 is superior to F-35 and par with F-22.
> IMO T-50 is nothing but a advanced Su-35 in a stealth design.




x2

Completely agree with you bro... Those are what I tried to tell... Pak-Fa is a mixture of Su and Mig series aircrafts with a poor stealth. I do not know the future of it but Pak-Fa with above design can never compete with F series USA stealth aircrafts..

It is a great and great achievements for Indian-Russian engineers indeed but When subject comes to compare it with USA stealth aircraft technology that has been developed since 1975-80, I can only say that Stop there and think twice...


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## booo

Growler said:


> Their is something called "stealth engine exhaust" which T-50 clearly lacks. Actually the rare of T-50 has alot of similarities with Su-27 family.
> 
> no no. i meant to say T-50 seems to be a evolved flanker family more like a continuation of Su-27 30 35 etc. You dont see any of predecessor traits of Lockheed or Boeing in F-22 or F-35. Sukhoi HAL can claim anything they want to, i wont take anything from them seriously like T-50 is superior to F-35 and par with F-22.
> IMO T-50 is nothing but a advanced Su-35 in a stealth design.
> 
> Lol so I guess you are not satisfied with the current design? Well you have to live up with it now. US has a big big R&D budget thats why they had 3-4 different designs competing. Finally when YF-22 was chosen the First maiden flight was in 91 and after long time in 97 the first final concept F-22 was rolled out. and after a very long time in 2007 did the raptor cleared FOC in USAF. thats almost 16 years after first prototype.
> meaning thats almost 2027 FOC for final T-50 production plane! wow.. but thats not gonna happen and both india and russia have to live with this concept design. no time for further upgrades.



The engine used in this flight is not the final engine. its 117S and not 117 which would power the PAK-FA.

second, ultra maneuverability is one of the primary requirements of russian 5th gen program. so engine will have 3d tvc.

3rd, how can you tell from the pictures that its not stealth engine exhaust? engine should mix cold air into the exhaust to decrease the ir visibility and I dont think you can tell that from pictures.


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## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> Thursday, October 22, 2009
> Outlines of PAK FA
> 
> Since the article of Alexander Pachkov ('Paralay') in Nov, 2009 issue of Russan-language 'Popular Mechanic' journal has produced a great interest, I translated the short essential of this text. Paralay is the editor of the popular site 'Stealth Machines'. The article is about PAK FA/FGFA program. Since I cannot check the Paralay's sources out, the question of information reliability is up to a reader. The outlines of his article...


Ah yes exactly like that, thanks for reminding, had forgot the article!

But that makes the Pak Fa/ FGFA a freaking capable air superiority fighter!

At least 180° radar detection with the x band nose AESA, maybe even full 360°!
Up to 12 A2A missiles internally!
360° OLS!
High t/w ratio, SC and TVC!

Be it BVR, or WVR that bird seems to be a great successor for the Flanker!


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## cabatli_53

booo said:


> The engine used in this flight is not the final engine. its 117S and not 117 which would power the PAK-FA.
> 
> second, ultra maneuverability is one of the primary requirements of russian 5th gen program. so engine will have 3d tvc.
> 
> 3rd, how can you tell from the pictures that its not stealth engine exhaust? engine should mix cold air into the exhaust to decrease the ir visibility and I dont think you can tell that from pictures.




Engine is not final
Design is not final
TVC is not final
Shape and stealth character is not final...


Then, I think No need to be proud of this plane...

and Pictures give lots of knowledge wheather It has a stelth character or not...Check all aircrafts, ships, destoyers that claimed to have stealth characteristic. You are going to realise what I am talking about...

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## DaRk WaVe

sancho said:


> Ah yes exactly like that, thanks for reminding, had forgot the article!
> 
> But that makes the Pak Fa/ FGFA a freaking capable air superiority fighter!
> 
> At least 180&#176; radar detection with the x band nose AESA, maybe even full 360&#176;!
> Up to 12 A2A missiles internally!
> 360&#176; OLS!
> High t/w ratio, SC and TVC!
> 
> Be it BVR, or WVR that bird seems to be a great successor for the Flanker!


 but it has got a controversial point



> 2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, *while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack*.



Irbis-E radar 
I hope gambit is not reading this 

BTW is there any info about AAMs mentioned?


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## Srinivas

cabatli_53 said:


> Engine is not final
> Design is not final
> Shape and stealth character is not final...
> 
> Then, I think No need to be proud of this plane...



What is the problem in feeling proud of a 5th gen fighter which is developed at such a low cost?


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## gambit

> EmO GiRl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) F-22 detects Su35 from the distance of 150-180 km but can open fire from 110 km, while becomes visible for Su-35's radar by itself and on R-77 range of attack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EmO GiRl said:
> 
> 
> 
> but it has got a controversial point
> 
> 
> 
> Irbis-E radar
> I hope gambit is not reading this
> 
> BTW is there any info about AAMs mentioned?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yup...And I pointed out how flawed that is a long time ago.

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## BlackSonic

cabatli_53 said:


> Engine is not final
> Design is not final
> TVC is not final
> Shape and stealth character is not final...
> 
> 
> Then, I think No need to be proud of this plane...
> 
> and Pictures give lots of knowledge wheather It has a stelth character or not...Check all aircrafts, ships, destoyers that claimed to have stealth characteristic. You are going to realise what I am talking about...

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## booo

cabatli_53 said:


> Engine is not final
> Design is not final
> TVC is not final
> Shape and stealth character is not final...
> 
> 
> Then, I think No need to be proud of this plane...
> 
> and Pictures give lots of knowledge wheather It has a stelth character or not...Check all aircrafts, ships, destoyers that claimed to have stealth characteristic. You are going to realise what I am talking about...


Yes, nothing is final because..........

*its only first flight and they are planning to induct it after 5 years* and 5 years is a lot of time for modifications.


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## TechLahore

Sapper said:


> Except from the engine exhaust nozzles, every thing else just screams stealth.
> Good Going Russia.
> Best of Luck India.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Well, the large intake surfaces at near right angles don't seem stealthy either...


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## jagjitnatt

Congrats to India and Russia for this amazing feat. The plane looks really nice. 
As for stealth characteristics, everything looks ok till now. And please dont judge the plane on basis of shape. Shape is not the only way to add stealth to the plane. It is a combination of different things.

The plane doesn't look to be in the final stage as I can't seem to find its internal weapon bay. Can anybody confirm this?


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## Ultimate Warrior

From a Russian site, when asked about *India's* contribution in PAK-Fa: 

"The Indian input will be just great relative to other Indo-Russian joint ventures till now.

1) Almost all composites on both version, since India has for now more advanced manufacturing line for composites.
2) Two-seater avionics.
3) Most of electronics on FGFA version. Including Radar's DSP. Hardware and especially software/
4) FGFA final engine will be per Indian choice, so probably being MKIsed western or Russian engine, difference in nozzles could be too.
5) The well expected in 10 years Naval versions will be probably even more different. "

"Progressive composites - is a half of project success since payload, stealth and airframe life are heavy depended of it. I think, everyone must do what can do the best. It's a key for competitiveness. If some avionic kit can be developed and produced in India - it's welcome. Otherwise, in India will be produced those parts, which is economically worth produce in India, and which is worth in Russia will be done there. It's depended of manufacturing effectiveness, what I want to say. THey will look for private sector submanufacturers in both countries."

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## cabatli_53

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> What is the problem in feeling proud of a 5th gen fighter which is developed at such a low cost?



You comes with a picture and claim that It is much more capable than F-22 and F-35... 

then We tell What we think about your pictures and type our reasons with our claims... and We tell Why Pak-Fa with this design can not be a rival of F-22 and F-35 based on our knowledges...

Then, When you saw our assertive claims, You start telling us that This is just a prototype, Engine is not final, TVC is not final, Design is not final...etc

If those pictures do not reflect Pak-Fa truely, No need to compare it with f-35-22.. It means No need to be proud of her...

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## Super Falcon

thanx growler for an eye opener and let u know tooo its back is worst than even SU 27 its design have a lot of failures


----------



## BlackSonic

Full video

Lenta.ru: : Ïåðâûé ïîëåò ÏÀÊ ÔÀ

don't know it is posted before

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## baker

Ultimate Warrior said:


> From a Russian site, when asked about *India's* contribution in PAK-Fa:
> 
> "The Indian input will be just great relative to other Indo-Russian joint ventures till now.
> 
> 1) Almost all composites on both version, since India has for now more advanced manufacturing line for composites.
> 2) Two-seater avionics.
> 3) Most of electronics on FGFA version. Including Radar's DSP. Hardware and especially software/
> 4) FGFA final engine will be per Indian choice, so probably being MKIsed western or Russian engine, difference in nozzles could be too.
> 5) The well expected in 10 years Naval versions will be probably even more different. "
> 
> "Progressive composites - is a half of project success since payload, stealth and airframe life are heavy depended of it. I think, everyone must do what can do the best. It's a key for competitiveness. If some avionic kit can be developed and produced in India - it's welcome. Otherwise, in India will be produced those parts, which is economically worth produce in India, and which is worth in Russia will be done there. It's depended of manufacturing effectiveness, what I want to say. THey will look for private sector submanufacturers in both countries."



long live indo-russian friendship


----------



## Dark Angel

*Pak Fa First Flight Full Video*

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## jagjitnatt

Super Falcon said:


> thanx growler for an eye opener and let u know tooo its back is worst than even SU 27 its design have a lot of failures



ok. we and russians are idiots to invest in billion of dollars to this project. It is worse than su27 and even your jf17. its a 1st gen plane and is made of paper. not to mention it appears the size of a blue whale on a radar.

fellow members help this man.


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## King Julien

booo said:


> Yes, nothing is final because..........
> 
> *its only first flight and they are planning to induct it after 5 years* and 5 years is a lot of time for *modifications*.



Modifications? why? because of 'Photo-Analysis' from these guys?
seriously mate we don't need to convince them... they have to convince themselves to sleep better  

ps. I think we need to start a new thread "Uncover the story behind the photo of PAK-FA"


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## Ruag

It is funny to read some of the comments made by some ignorant Pakistani members on this forum.

This is just a prototype and a lot of work is still left. 

Read Putin's comments on this - 



> "*There is very much to be done, in part as regards the engine*," Putin said. "But the fact that the plane is already in the air is a big step forward."



New Russian stealth fighter makes first flight | Reuters

This prototype used the 117S engine which was developed for the Su-35 jet. So, obviously the engine section of the jet will bear resemblance to the traditional Sukhoi series. And Putin's comments clearly indicate that a specific engine for the PAK-FA is under development. And with further modifications, the tail section will be made more stealthier in accordance with the final design of the PAK-FA engine.

Seriously... a prototype makes its first test flight and already we start hearing comments that the "PAK-FA is inferior to F-22 and F-35". Seriously, what are you guys? 5th grade kids?

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## Srinivas

cabatli_53 said:


> You comes with a picture and claim that It is much more capable than F-22 and F-35...
> 
> then We tell What we think about your pictures and type our reasons with our claims... and We tell Why Pak-Fa with this design can not be a rival of F-22 and F-35 based on our knowledges...
> 
> Then, When you saw our assertive claims, You start telling us that This is just a prototype, Engine is not final, TVC is not final, Design is not final...etc
> 
> If those pictures do not reflect Pak-Fa truely, No need to compare it with f-35-22.. It means No need to be proud of her...



I am not comparing on the basis of pics it is you doing it. 

I am comparing the specs of the fighters and it is a 5th gen fighter IT MUST BE COMPARED WITH f22 and f35 which i did.
it is fairer than comparing based on just pics which you did


----------



## SQ8

Seriously tiny tail surfaces..


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## cabatli_53

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> I am not comparing on the basis of pics it is you doing it.
> 
> I am comparing the specs of the fighters and it is a 5th gen fighter IT MUST BE COMPARED WITH f22 and f35 which i did.
> it is fairer than comparing based on just pics which you did




If the 1st prototype of Pak-Fa that needs lots of additional modifications is able to compete with F-35, F-22, Think Final Pak-Fa and its final capabilities.. 

Good Lucks at international markets against F-35 !!!


----------



## cabatli_53

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> it is a 5th gen fighter IT MUST BE COMPARED WITH f22 and f35 which i did.



Ok!!! Then, Your hard rival !!!

Good Luck !!!


----------



## Super Falcon

INSHAHALLAH u will see it is not stelathy but remember this thread


----------



## Windjammer

Is it me or any one else noticed that PAK-FA seems to be a follow up of the cancelled MIG-35 Project.


----------



## Super Falcon

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lv17lCcplw


----------



## DavyJones

@Growler - India and Russia working together have a big R&D budget. And upgrades are natural for any airframe. Hasn't your F-16 been upgraded sir?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Supersonic26 said:


> Hello buddy how you so sure that above aircrafts are stealth? Didn't serbia droped dead one of american stealth bomber?


F-117 is the oldest stealth technology in operational and its about to be phased out. the reason why nighthawk was brought down because it flew low on the same path and serbians were quick to realize this opportunity and took the kill. 
If F-22 was in nighthawk place it would have been imposible for IR missile to lock on it due to its best self protection system in the world and not to forget dozens of flares it will release in a sec. 


> Russia told to world that pak-fa will be more stealthy then F-22 raptor.


wow as if they said it and its the fact now.  


> They proved it to india by demonstration. Check original thread of PAK-FA. in that it clearly shown how much stealth PAK-FA is.


sounds like they tricked indians to earn some huge bucks. 


> Just because PAK-FA dont look like F-22 doesn't mean its not stealth. American stealth got problems buddy. Ask serbia about it.


 Lets admit it. you are a fanboy. and a 13 year old kid with absolute ZERO knowledge about aircrafts so all you are doing is satisfying your indian ego with baseless hilarious remarks. 


> PAK-FA is the real stealth rather then F-22. American stealth been tested against serbia and the result whole world knows.


Prove it.


----------



## mrwarrior006

congrats india and russia u beauty


----------



## albwd

mrwarrior006 said:


> congrats india and russia u beauty



Sure, also design preference of choosing to optimize from su-27 instead of LCA is a big plus.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

DavyJones said:


> @Growler - India and Russia working together have a big R&D budget. And upgrades are natural for any airframe. Hasn't your F-16 been upgraded sir?



Huh? do you know how much the F-22 program costs? 60 billion dollars! do you know much F-35 costs? 40+ billion dollars! and PAK-FA costs only 10 billion dollars. now dont tell me super shkti Bharat and Russia have struck alien technology with less R&D budget. Expect this prototype to be the final expect a few minor changes such as engine and paint.


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## DaRk WaVe

> PAK-FA is the real stealth rather then F-22. American stealth been tested against serbia and the result whole world knows.



Interesting 

now explain us the REAL stealth



> Sure, also design preference of choosing to optimize from su-27 instead of LCA is a big plus.


----------



## albwd

Growler said:


> Huh? do you know how much the F-22 program costs? 60 billion dollars! do you know much F-35 costs? 40+ billion dollars! and PAK-FA costs only 10 billion dollars. now dont tell me super shkti Bharat and Russia have struck alien technology with less R&D budget. Expect this prototype to be the final expect a few minor changes such as engine and paint.



This maybe final for Indian part of the deal, Russians must be making something else. There best bet is to optimize Mig's. We know them Russians too well.


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## gogbot

EmO GiRl said:


> from what i understand FGFA (the Indian PAKFA) will be different & it will take some time to have a twin seater, which is IAF doctrine
> 
> a bit older info
> 
> 
> note that it mentions that prototype will use *AL-31FP*, meaning we are yet to see *AL-41* getting operational???
> correct me if i am wrong..



well FGFA is just a variant of the PAK-FA. 

So technically the PAK-FA is the prototype for the FGFA.

while the two planes will be different(as different as possible between Indian and Russia versions), FGFA built as per Indian requirement and PAK-FA for Russian.

on that note, 

India will procure 50 PAK-FA and 200 FGFA
Whilst
Russia will procure 50 FGFA and 200 PAK-FA

Also to note will the existence of Israeli, Indian and French systems. On the Indian planes.

Whilst the Russian Plane will use Russian equipment and Certain sub-systems(such as Mission computer) by HAL on theirs.(India wants some return on investment for each plane sold as well).

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## DaRk WaVe

gogbot said:


> Whilst the Russian Plane will use Russian equipment and Certain sub-systems(such as Mission computer) by HAL on theirs.(*India wants some return on investment for each plane sold as well*).





Customer?? 

or may be i am thinking too much?

source please...

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## xukxuk

gratz finally f22 have someone to play with
waiting for the further detail


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Fifth generation aircraft should be judged by its capabilities rather than appearance and shapes. And one cannot judge the capabilities based on pics


Let me give you an example.









Both frigates claim to have reduced RCS so by just only and only looking at these pics which of the above looks stealthier without even reading the specs? Pictures play a very vital role. 


> As far as i know there are two types of stealth technologies one will make use the shape of the aircraft to make it invisible to the radar. second one is using RAM coatings on the body of the aircraft where shaping of the aircraft is not possible.


Shape is 90 % of the stealth technology. You can not have RAM coated brick and claim to to be as stealthier as RAM coated Ball. RAM is also applied on F-22 and F-35 and thats how they have came to a desire result with the best stealth fighters in the world. 


> So it looks like the stealth is a combination of both types of technologies in F22 and PAK FA. On that note we cannot judge one fighter is inferior


So then you the F are you judging that PAK-FA is par with F-22? Why are indians so thick and delusional? 


> Secondly PAK FA is more maneuverable than F22 because of 3D thrust vectoring incorporated into it.


 maneuverability does not count much in future areal engagements. F-22 is appropriate maneuverability to give any 3dTVC a run and at the same time not be a stunt air show joke. 


> Thirdly weapons pay load of PAK FA is more than F22


so? Su-27 has more pay load then F-22? whats your point? 


> There are new long range missiles under development which are deadlier


The self protection ECM EW etc technology have also progressed where long range AAM dont have that much of advantage anymore. 


> Finally ruskies have designed the 5 th gen fighter at a low cost than Yankees.


thats because ruskies are broke. after all they could only come up with a evolved su-27 like plane.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

booo said:


> The engine used in this flight is not the final engine. its 117S and not 117 which would power the PAK-FA.


TVC engines have bigger IR signature. 


> second, ultra maneuverability is one of the primary requirements of russian 5th gen program. so engine will have 3d tvc.


Its useless for the americans who do not bother too much with this concept. but then too bad for them... they aint gonna get so much attention in stunt air shows. 


> 3rd, how can you tell from the pictures that its not stealth engine exhaust? engine should mix cold air into the exhaust to decrease the ir visibility and I dont think you can tell that from pictures.


You are a indian right. so its normal for them to be deluded. admit it. AL-117 has no stealth exhaust like in F-22 and F-35.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> Secondly PAK FA is more maneuverable than F22 because of 3D thrust vectoring incorporated into it.




ever heard of DAS system  
F-35 is less maneuverable but it ain't a Junk


----------



## Myth_buster_1

King Julien said:


> Modifications? why? because of 'Photo-Analysis' from these guys?
> seriously mate we don't need to convince them... they have to convince themselves to sleep better
> 
> ps. I think we need to start a new thread "Uncover the story behind the photo of PAK-FA"



EVEN good for US! 
because we know we have this junk to bare with. but i am sure china with 2x more R&D budget they are gonna come up with as good if not better stealth air craft then military broken Russia. Russia has lost its military might which it use to have back in 70s 80s.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Ruag said:


> Seriously... a prototype makes its first test flight and already we start hearing comments that the "PAK-FA is inferior to F-22 and F-35". Seriously, what are you guys? 5th grade kids?



Serioulsy too many deluded indians flooding this forum. but seriously what makes you think PAK-FA is even close to F-22? what are you guys? 3 year old girls!


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Growler said:


> Serioulsy too many deluded indians flooding this forum. but seriously what makes you think PAK-FA is even close to F-22? what are you guys? *3 year old girls!*



Don't insult the Girls please

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## jha

grapes are too sour...aren't they??

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## DaRk WaVe

jha said:


> grapes are too sour...aren't they??



yeah it will be sour for Raptor to eat the Russian Glory

If you can't talk with logic then don't post

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## Dark Angel

Super Falcon said:


> its intakes are similar to SU 27 woudent u russian make fool of india most of time when u sell ur equipment to them





> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos






*how high is ur fever after the test flight *


----------



## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> Customer??
> 
> or may be i am thinking too much?
> 
> source please...



No No EmO, its not what India is thinking.. apart from India and Russia, Malaysia is a potential buyer. Malaysia has been following the same path as Indian or vice versa, They both have same types of aircrafts. 

But it's too early to say.. Come on yaar let this beauty take a breath now. We will see such things later.


----------



## jha

EmO GiRl said:


> yeah it will be sour for Raptor to eat the Russian Glory
> 
> If you can't talk with logic then don't post



wasn't replying to you......
anyways carry on....


----------



## Windjammer

The aircraft has barely taken into the air and some members are ranting as if the first IAF squadron has been DECLARED OPERATIONAL.
Even when the futuristic looking MIG-35 was unveiled, the general belief was that Russia has excelled in fighter design but soon after the project was cancelled. The PAK-FA looks a derivative of the MIG-35, presently nothing is there to suggest that this would bare fruit and go into production. Even if it proves successful, you are perhaps talking a decade before induction.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

jha said:


> wasn't replying to you......
> anyways carry on....



now thats my turn to say

" Grapes are sour "

*All of u *
just calm down, don't spoil their party, Its just a prototype


----------



## albwd

Growler said:


> EVEN good for US!
> because we know we have this junk to bare with. but i am sure china with 2x more R&D budget they are gonna come up with as good if not better stealth air craft then military broken Russia. Russia has lost its military might which it use to have back in 70s 80s.



Pre-2008 Russia has been repeatedly making mistakes. Open sources saying they don't even have a missile platform to use in their SSBNs. They should choose Mig's instead of Su's research on that one. Since I am not an expert, so I am extremely bold and dare to say anything.  -> It's difficult to optimize Su-platforms; Migs are wild cards, If Migs are optimized, last night a gypsy told me  there is a great chance Migs based 5th gen can take on the best breed of American crafts. For the next 5-10 years, American fighter jets will likely remain ranked #1 in the world, however not necesssarily dominant of skies, since a small squadron can be probably challenged by best breed of today's Su-s with advanced missile and radar systems.
While the best bet China has is to increase their radar and missile capabilities.
These are all my EDUCATED WILD GUESS, obviously.


----------



## r0ck

Dark Angel said:


> *Pak Fa First Flight Full Video*
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Pak Fa (T-50) First Flight Full Video



What's wrong with the landing gear in this video??


----------



## gowthamraj

EmO GiRl said:


> Customer??
> 
> or may be i am thinking too much?
> 
> source please...


ya buddy. in some todays article it says tat india-russia will sell these planes to listed countries in future


----------



## DaRk WaVe

albwd said:


> Pre-2008 Russia has been repeatedly making mistakes. Open sources saying they don't even have a missile platform to use in their SSBNs. They should choose Mig's instead of Su's research on that one. Since I am not an expert, so I am extremely bold and dare to say anything.  -> It's difficult to optimize Su-platforms; Migs are wild cards, If Migs are optimized, last night a gypsy told me  there is a great chance Migs based 5th gen can take on the best breed of American crafts. For the next 5-10 years, American fighter jets will likely remain ranked #1 in the world, however not necesssarily dominant of skies, *since a small squadron can be probably challenged by best breed of today's Su-s with advanced missile and radar systems.*
> While the best bet China has is to increase their radar and missile capabilities.
> These are all my EDUCATED WILD GUESS, obviously.



I am sorry but if you think can latest Flankers can be Raptor Killers then you are wrong

Su-35BM is undoubtedly a beast but no way can it be a Raptor Killer & its Irbis-E has got no Magic that 0.01 m^2 RCS is more of a bluff plus If am not wrong we are yet to see an operational Ramjet R-77

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## DaRk WaVe

gowthamraj said:


> ya buddy. in some todays article it says tat india-russia will sell these planes to listed countries in future



First of all i am not a boy
& secondly i need that article 
Thanks...


----------



## conworldus

Let's wait for our J-14 instead.


----------



## albwd

EmO GiRl said:


> I am sorry but if you think can latest Flankers can be Raptor Killers then you are wrong
> 
> Su-35BM is undoubtedly a beast but no way can it be a Raptor Killer & its Irbis-E has got no Magic plus If am not wrong we are yet to see an operational Ramjet R-77



You are the expert.


----------



## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> First of all i am not a boy
> & secondly i need that article
> Thanks...



Wow a girl here to flirt with.. Your ASL please??? lol just kidding!!


----------



## hindustan

well if i am not wrong few days before there was news usa may suppli f35 to india 

just 3 line to pakistani 

we have an open offer for f35 
we have mmrca for future planes 
we will get pak-fa in near future


----------



## DaRk WaVe

hindustan said:


> well if i am not wrong few days before there was news usa may suppli f35 to india
> 
> just 3 line to pakistani
> 
> *we have an open offer for f35
> we have mmrca for future planes *
> we will get pak-fa in near future



Correction F-35 will be offered if you go for F-16 in MMRCA


----------



## albwd

conworldus said:


> Let's wait for our J-14 instead.



Together with other military capabilities, J10 is probably enough to secure Chinese air space. 14? No idea. Maybe similar situation with Pakistan, the top of the cream is outside their own country busy making USD's and EURO's. There is a great chance a Chinese 14 is similar to PAK-FA. Only Hu knows.


----------



## hindustan

i accept you as an great magicians 


no there was not any condtion indian navy can go for f35 without any f16 condition


----------



## Myth_buster_1

hindustan said:


> well if i am not wrong few days before there was news usa may suppli f35 to india
> 
> just 3 line to pakistani
> 
> we have an open offer for f35
> we have mmrca for future planes
> we will get pak-fa in near future



woow! ME SO SCCCCCAREEED!! 

F-35 was offered but inferior PAK-FA was chosen so bye bye F-35. now stick with a cheap russian toy... their is no going back my friend no going back.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

hindustan said:


> i accept you as an great magicians
> 
> 
> no there was not any condtion indian navy can go for f35 without any f16 condition



May be i am wrong, but PROVE me wrong & you will win


----------



## sab

Super Falcon said:


> agreed with growler pak-fa is nuts russians are making fool of india i think Latest F 15 eagle have a kill on it i dont see pakfa capable ruling over any 5 generation fighter jet im not doing this becoz of it is for india but reality is that so much hype was created waste trillions of dollars on this machine is in garbage bag no use any latest 4 gen fighter jet will bring this pak fa down


you can drop it by your words too...no need for guns or 4th gen fighters...


----------



## Ruag

Growler said:


> Serioulsy too many deluded indians flooding this forum. but seriously what makes you think PAK-FA is even close to F-22? what are you guys? 3 year old girls!



Deluded? 

OK.. let us believe that the F-22 and F-35 are way superior to the PAK-FA.

Does India really care? Nope.

You know why? Because our opponent flies F-16s and JF-17s and the only "advanced" jet it can afford to buy in the next decade is J-11.

And as I mentioned before on this forum, why even invest on stealth to shoot down dodos? 

P.S. No offense to the poor extinct flightless bird.

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## gogbot

EmO GiRl said:


> Customer??
> 
> or may be i am thinking too much?
> 
> source please...





Kinshuk said:


> No No EmO, its not what India is thinking.. apart from India and Russia, Malaysia is a potential buyer. Malaysia has been following the same path as Indian or vice versa, They both have same types of aircrafts.
> 
> But it's too early to say.. Come on yaar let this beauty take a breath now. We will see such things later.





gowthamraj said:


> ya buddy. in some todays article it says tat india-russia will sell these planes to listed countries in future



First of all, 
i was referring to the fact that Sukhoi and HAL sell these planes to their respective nations.

HAL And SUkhoi have invested their own money into the project as well, and despite HAL Financing a great deal of the project. It's return on investments are limited compared to Sukhoi. So they will obviously want to make their own contribution to the project. While HAL will gain expertise working with Russian, They also want to get a share of profits for every plane ordered. Especially if the Plane has systems installed that it developed. Then Sukhoi has to license build HAL mission computers and avionics . Meaning HAL will get profit for every plane made in Russia and India

Of course sale to foreign suppliers is possible. especially for nations looking to counter the F-35.

Meaning more orders and greater return on investment.

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## hindustan

Growler said:


> woow! ME SO SCCCCCAREEED!!
> 
> F-35 was offered but inferior PAK-FA was chosen so bye bye F-35. now stick with a cheap russian toy... their is no going back my friend no going back.




ahh why dont you read the news 

f35 offer is still open and if and if indian navy choose we can take few plane in future 

they are 10 or may be 20 times better then chiniese technology


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Deluded?
> 
> OK.. let us believe that the F-22 and F-35 are way superior to the PAK-FA.
> 
> *Does India really care? Nope.*
> 
> You know why? Because our opponent flies F-16s and JF-17s and the only "advanced" jet it can afford to buy in the next decade is J-11.
> 
> And as I mentioned before on this forum, why even invest on stealth to* shoot down dodos?*
> 
> P.S. No offense to the poor extinct flightless bird.



well no offense but your Russians gave us the Engines for Dodos so that makes 'em a potential threat  

isn't it?

stop ranting...


----------



## karan.1970

EmO GiRl said:


> May be i am wrong, but PROVE me wrong & you will win



Its an Indian media report so your call if you want to accept it or not. 

US offers its latest fighter to India


----------



## Adios Amigo

hindustan said:


> ahh why dont you read the news
> 
> f35 offer is still open and if and if indian navy choose we can take few plane in future
> 
> they are 10 or may be 20 times better then chiniese technology



lets suppose you are right, but if Indian navy chooses f-35, it has to wait for a loong, loong, loong, looong time, the plane isn't still into production, and a long list of buyers is already in line, so you can imagine the year in which it will be inducted in Indian navy.






adios


----------



## deckingraj

EmO GiRl said:


> Correction F-35 will be offered if you go for F-16 in MMRCA



Another correction...That was an earlier condition but now its been on offer even without F-16.. In fact IN is mulling about going for the offer or not...

Let me see if i can back up with some links...


----------



## Ruag

EmO GiRl said:


> well no offense but your Russians gave us the Engines for Dodos so that makes 'em a potential threat
> 
> isn't it?
> 
> stop ranting...



Rant? OK... I'll stop ranting.

But still... which engine are you talking about? Oh!!! The RD-93? That RD-93 which is a derivative of the RD-33 developed by the Russians in 1985?

Cool... nice to hear that 1985 Russian tech is giving wings to dodos.


----------



## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> May be i am wrong, but PROVE me wrong & you will win


Hi EmO GiRl, F35 is indeed on offer for India without the old restriction of buying F16IN:



> New Delhi, Jan 12 (IANS) The US has offered to India yet another sophisticated defence system, this time its fifth generation F-35 Lightning-II fighter aircraft.
> The possible sale of this aircraft, which is still under development, was mentioned in the past if the Indian Air Force (IAF) purchased the F 16 Super Viper for its Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement.
> 
> *But according to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures these both aircraft, has now made a presentation without this condition* to the Indian Navy for its carrier-borne aircraft requirements in about seven to eight years from now...



US offers its latest fighter to India

I think LM knows how small the chances of F16IN are in MMRCA and try to get at least another deal with IN.

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## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Rant? OK... I'll stop ranting.
> 
> But still... which engine are you talking about? Oh!!! The RD-93? That RD-93 which is a derivative of the RD-33 developed by the Russians in 1985?
> 
> Cool... nice to hear that 1985 Russian tech is giving wings to dodos.



ohh you mean the same technology for which Indians literally cried when it was sold to Pak 

BTW what was the Topic...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

F-35 is offered to india lol thats in its final testings and destined to countries like turkey israel french uk and they have booked them already like turkeye is buying around 115 or more so india doesnt stand a chance maybe ur talking russian.


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## Ruag

EmO GiRl said:


> ohh you mean the same technology for which Indians literally cried when it was sold to Pak



Correction... it is the same technology whose sale India objected to earlier but later retracted after it realized that it is way inferior to the RD-33 series 3 and RD-33MK engines being manufactured in Bangalore since 2005.


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## deckingraj

EmO GiRl said:


> ohh you mean the same technology for which Indians literally cried when it was sold to Pak
> 
> BTW what was the Topic...




No intention of flaming but we were successful in delaying the supply...didn't we??? Though its good for Pakistan that finally the deal went through...However you never know about the future...more nosy diplomacy by indian babus might show different results...though your best bet is chinese producing their own engines rather than dependency on rd-93


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## nightrider_saulat

PAK-FA the name itself is a shame on 5th generation class


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## psifactor

WoW that is called Russian F22


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## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Nope... *the same technology whose sale India objected to earlier* but later retracted after it realized that it is way inferior to the RD-33 series 3 and RD-33MK engines being manufactured in Bangalore since 2005.



wow that was a FAST realization  



> No intention of flaming but we were successful in delaying the supply...didn't we??? Though its good for Pakistan that finally the deal went through...However you never know about the future...more nosy diplomacy by indian babus might show different results...though your best bet is chinese producing their own engines rather than dependency on rd-93



Delaying by how much exactly?
its the same Russians who are selling to Chinese & same are selling to India & when time came they didnt objected to sell to Pakistan & for your Kind info more RD-93s & Al-31s have been recently brought by China 
as for Chinese Engine they are doing a lot better


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## marcos98

this is YF22-

THIS IS F-22 RAPTOR...


GUYS AND GALS LETS GIVE PAKFA SOME TIME......

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## deckingraj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> F-35 is offered to india lol thats in its final testings and destined to countries like turkey israel french uk and they have booked them already like turkeye is buying around 115 or more so india doesnt stand a chance maybe ur talking russian.



Sometimes they say Ignorance is a bliss...I am not sure it suits you...Its been offered...we might go for it...and it will complement our navy in future...obviously after the requirements of stake holders are over...As of now we have MIg29...and is wnough for our current needs... and we know we will have far lethal planes for future needs...Where do you see PN in a deacde from now???

My request just think before making fun...


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## gubbi

sancho said:


> Some interesting pics from other forums, they show the internal weapon bays below closer and possibly even a missile bay on the wings, also it seems to have the L band radar arrays on the wings which was developed for Flankers too:



Apart from the internal bays that you see beneath the fuselage, check out the topmost circled part of the wing. 
Apparently that is a movable slat on the wing - something akin to a canard, but not independent- part of the overall wing - a LERX (leading edge root extensions). Provides all the advantages of a canard without its RCS penalty! 
That above is a flap actuator for the LERXs. Just behind the actuator you see the internal bay in the wings (apart from those in the fuselage). People have been saying that this bay will hold missiles which will fire in the opp direction relative to the aircrafts flight path.

What else can be deduced?

Large air intakes - suggestive of a very high service ceiling and FAST!!

Air intakes seem to be inline with the engine....however we can clearly see that those are S-shaped intake in a vertical plane to shield the compressor blades, instead of horizontal plane like the F-35.

It also seems to have a vertical stabilizer on its tail boom.

Nose seems pretty small compared to other 5th gen aircrafts to house a AESA radar, but I may be wrong.

All in all, its just a prototype and any kinks will be ironed out in the months or years to come. 

Anymore inputs?

Anymore inputs?

ps: I like it. She's beautiful.

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## Peshwa

To my fellow Indians......

I think people here forget one very important thing.....

From an Indian perspective....The "Indian" PAK-FA will NEVER face an F-22...so why compare with something that we dont intend to fight.....
Whether its less stealthier than F-22 hardly affects us....Its good enough for us....Why worry about whether Growler, the Turkish dude or SuperFalcon give their approval...Like their opinion even matters...(What these folks should be worried about is what the PAK-FA will face off against...LOL!!)..If it helps some people sleep at night....Why not....else there is always Ambien!!

Whats important is that this project is well on its way.....and an important step towards the modernization and future of our airforce....

And if this option is not good enough (Hopefully not), we can always opt for the F-35....

To the naysayers....."Beggars cant be choosers"...

Im proud of my country for having the foresight to make this investment.....
And obviously thanks to the Russians....our all weather allies!!!

Jai Hind!!!

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## DaRk WaVe

@ Raug

Hal Website does not says anything about Rd-33 engines

Welcome to Engine Division of HAL

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL


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## Ruag

EmO GiRl said:


> wow that was a FAST realization



Yup... the 'realization' struck as soon as Russia and India reached an "unpublicized compromise" over the sale.

Procurement: Everyone Wants A Piece Of The RD93

What the "compromise" was and who really made it is anyone's guess.


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## Telescope

EmO GiRl said:


> @ Raug
> 
> Hal Website does not says anything about Rd-33 engines
> 
> Welcome to Engine Division of HAL
> 
> Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL



Actually they might not have started production yet, or simpler still, not updated the website. I dont know the actual answer. But production of RD 33 by HAL is a fact:

HAL to licence produce Klimov RD-33 engines as part of India's $275m in deals for MiG-29 renewal-14/09/2006-Singapore-Flight International


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## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Yup... the 'realization' struck as soon as Russia and India reached an "unpublicized compromise" over the sale.
> 
> Procurement: Everyone Wants A Piece Of The RD93
> 
> What the "compromise" was and who really made it is anyone's guess.



So called 'compromise' has not affected production of JF-17 in any way, your link says the newer RD-93s brought have higher thrust



> September 30, 2009: China has ordered another hundred RD93 jet engines from Russia. *This order is believed to be for an ungraded RD93, with additional thrust.*




Chinese have ordered more RD-93 & they are coming, there are no reports of India stopping the supply of these engines & moreover the the J-10 is using the Al-31 not any Chinese Engine this proves that Russikies will sell when ever they will see money, they haven't stopped supplying Chinese with Engines because 'Chinese Copy', If you think Engine is an electronic circuit that can be copied then you are absolutely WRONG
so why havent this compromise & understanding worked in case of AL-31
you think Russikies will loose contract for so many Engines just because India tells them to do so ,aww well


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## Kinshuk

Super Falcon said:


> INSHAHALLAH u will see it is not stelathy but remember this thread



Now listen to me at last..

4 years back a thread was started by an Indian 2006 stating *India to co develop 5th gen fighter AC With RussiaLol *that time most of the Pak member Rubbished the report and said it is just a rumor, So it is 29th Jan 2010..

A request to all the logical and rational people here, why the hell you even care to stretch the argument to this long? If some members from Pak and turkey or even India don't want to believe its a fifth gen plane so be it? How does that makes our air force impotent? 

*Let them discuss this in there own... And to all the pakistani members most of them know I have always been very rational with my opinion*,

*had I been a pakistani, I wouldn't have cared if it is as worthy as F-22, I would have instead tried to figure out what I have to counter this Military development. Just give a little stress on your mind and think that way.. Belittling this AC is a fanboy stuff and when we don't want to face the harsh reality that we don't have anything to counter such development..

Believe me, if the condition has reciprocated, Pakistan being developing and India sitting duck, I wouldn't have given a f**k about if it is as capable as F 22 raptor, But I surely would have ejaculated to look for some counter.* 

This is the most rational approach I could have used. Trust me guys... *Ok here is the deal...

This is not as good as F 22 and even F 35 but is slightly better than Euro Fighter,,,*
*Now tell me what Pakistan is going to do against 250 of these???? *


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## DaRk WaVe

Now listen to me if some one is saying BS its better to ignore you can't deal with every one, Stop acting like a kid

its a great achievement but if you think PAK-FA has made you super Power & unbeatable then wait a bit my dear, we are yet to see it been 'inducted' & don't think Chinese & Pakistanis are sleeping


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## Ruag

EmO GiRl said:


> So called 'compromise' has not affected production of JF-17 in any way, your link says the newer RD-93s brought have higher thrust
> 
> Chinese have ordered more RD-93 & they are coming, there are no reports of India stopping the supply of these engines & moreover the the J-10 is using the Al-31 not any Chinese Engine this proves that Russikies will sell when ever they will see money, they haven't stopped supplying Chinese with Engines because 'Chinese Copy', so why havent this compromise & understanding worked in case of AL-31
> you think Russikies will loose contract for so many Engines just because India tells them to do so ,aww well



Well... I agree that the Russians will sell wherever they see money.

But here are two examples for you - 

Russia agrees the sale of RD-93 to China/Pakistan --- Russia agrees the sale and TOT of much more advanced RD-33 series 3 and proposes the sale of RD-33MK to India.

Russia allows China to build Al-31 --- Russia allows India to build AL-31FP with thrust vectoring.

You can make whatever conclusions you want from the above two examples.

Anyways, we are going off-topic.


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## jaunty

Peshwa said:


> To my fellow Indians......
> 
> I think people here forget one very important thing.....
> 
> From an Indian perspective....The "Indian" PAK-FA will NEVER face an F-22...so why compare with something that we dont intend to fight.....



Actually, IMO from both Russian and Indian perspective, PAK-FA will never go against a F-22. At the present scenario, there is absolutely no chance of any military confrontation between Russia and the USA. They did not go to war even during the cold war, when the tension was at it's peak. So now no chance whatsoever. But even if that happens in the future the distance between USA and Russia will most likely prevent a Raptor PAK-FA direct face-off as F22 doesn't have any naval variant.

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## gowthamraj

EmO GiRl said:


> First of all i am not a boy
> & secondly i need that article
> Thanks...



i really sorry for that. . . secondly i read that article in the same thread in post #654


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## Dazzler

Well folks, it seems as a pretty good development by Russians. The plane itself appears to be pretty low observable and seems stealthy from outside but the engine nozzles seem a bit of give away. I like the design of PAK FA and I am sure the Russians have come up with a plane that will make its space in the global market. Well done Russia.


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## Myth_buster_1

Ruag said:


> Deluded?


Not just deluded "Pathologically deluded"! 


> OK.. let us believe that the F-22 and F-35 are way superior to the PAK-FA.Does India really care? Nope.


ammm its a fact that F-22 and F-35 are supirior to Pak-FA. end of story now carry on your ego satisfaction remarks and at the same time being delusional. 


> You know why? Because our opponent flies F-16s and JF-17s and the only "advanced" jet it can afford to buy in the next decade is J-11.


Once our F-16s are equipped with sniper pods they will be able to track T-50 with its IRST capability without out even turning on its radar. But sorry to wake you from your super shkti IAF honeymoon but PAF will spend billions of dollars upgrading its Air force in the next decade. Their is more to just F-16s and JF-17. And just like IAF PAF too have found a solution for their 5th generation fighter requirement which is Chinese stealth Fighter. Again you being a pathological delusional you are most welcome to believe Chinese technology is cr@p just for the sake of satisfying your loser indian ego.


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## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> Now listen to me if some one is saying BS its better to ignore you can't deal with every one, Stop acting like a kid
> 
> its a great achievement but if you think PAK-FA has made you super Power & unbeatable then wait a bit my dear, we are yet to see it been 'inducted' & don't think Chinese & Pakistanis are sleeping



was that a reply to my question?? I mentioned its a duck against F 22 but slightly better than Euro Fighter.

If yes then a pretty lame one, if no then Please reply..

And ya no doubt about Chinese, they are the fastest developing people in the world I am sure they will develop it, and Pakistan will have it too in partnership..
But the question is, just when


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## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> @ Raug
> 
> Hal Website does not says anything about Rd-33 engines
> 
> Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL


The website is not really updated, but on the bottom it is stated:



> *Salient Features:*
> 
> *RD 33 O/H*
> 
> Max. Diameter, mm
> 990
> Length, mm
> 4260
> Dry Weight, kg
> 1050
> Max Reheat Thrust, kg
> 8300
> Specific Fuel Consumption, Dry mode, kg / kg thrust / hr
> 0.77
> Fuel Reheat Mode
> 2.05



However, Russia will go on and sell stuff like every other nation too (US for example to India), the difference is only Russia won't sell latest techs, or arms to potential threats of India that are superior to those that are on offer for India. Russian officals said that they don't see a problem in RD 93 sale for JF 17/FC1, because IAF has similar engine since years and it's still better that those fighters gets this engines, instead of possibly better western (Snecma engines was rumoured for a long too). Neither RD93, nor AL 31 for J10 are offered superior to those engines that are on offer for IAF,nor are they offered with the same tech (TVC) as IAF could get.
Compare that with US now, that offers F16 with superior techs to India, GE404 and now 414, or even 414 EPE engines for LCA, besides all the other techs and arms they offer directly, even without waiting for RFIs (Hellfire missiles, V22, E-2D...).

India can't prevent Russia from selling to China, or even to Pakistan, but as long as it has limitiations and won't give India a clear disadvantage, it should be not a big deal right?

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## Kinshuk

Kinshuk said:


> Now listen to me at last..
> 
> 4 years back a thread was started by an Indian 2006 stating *India to co develop 5th gen fighter AC With RussiaLol *that time most of the Pak member Rubbished the report and said it is just a rumor, So it is 29th Jan 2010..
> 
> A request to all the logical and rational people here, why the hell you even care to stretch the argument to this long? If some members from Pak and turkey or even India don't want to believe its a fifth gen plane so be it? How does that makes our air force impotent?
> 
> *Let them discuss this in there own... And to all the pakistani members most of them know I have always been very rational with my opinion*,
> 
> *had I been a pakistani, I wouldn't have cared if it is as worthy as F-22, I would have instead tried to figure out what I have to counter this Military development. Just give a little stress on your mind and think that way.. Belittling this AC is a fanboy stuff and when we don't want to face the harsh reality that we don't have anything to counter such development..
> 
> Believe me, if the condition has reciprocated, Pakistan being developing and India sitting duck, I wouldn't have given a f**k about if it is as capable as F 22 raptor, But I surely would have ejaculated to look for some counter.*
> 
> This is the most rational approach I could have used. Trust me guys... *Ok here is the deal...
> 
> This is not as good as F 22 and even F 35 but is slightly better than Euro Fighter,,,*
> *Now tell me what Pakistan is going to do against 250 of these???? *




*I want MASTER KHAN to reply on this post, If MODS or staff can inform him regarding this, it would be very helpful Thanks!!!*


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## Locked

The PAK-FA plane is somethng useless, it will get pissed in competition with real 5th gen ACs. Congrats India for this hyped plane which will soon show how bad it is.


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## Myth_buster_1

hindustan said:


> ahh why dont you read the news
> 
> f35 offer is still open and if and if indian navy choose we can take few plane in future


So why would IAF chose F-35 if PAK-FA is superior? 


> they are 10 or may be 20 times better then chiniese technology


But Chinese technology is 40X better then Russian and 400X better then Indian.


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## Hulk

A question came to my mind number of times reading post in this forum. It seems time is right to ask it now.

How many of you who are commenting on PAK-FA or other stuff have any experience/knowledge of the technology. If I am not mistaken a lot of you are just student studying.

I know we have few military professionals and think tanks who I am excluding from this list, what about others.

I am a civilian and to admit have no great idea about this stuff, I do not argue with one at the same time.


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## gogbot

Growler said:


> So why would IAF chose F-35 if PAK-FA is superior?
> 
> But Chinese technology is 40X better then Russian and 400X better then Indian.



Misinformed conclusions.

IAF is not getting F-35, Has not expressed intrest at all.

It is Indian Navy that is considering the F-35 for it 3 new upcoming carriers.

If Naval version of FGFA is ready, They will obviously choose that.


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## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> Another correction...That was an earlier condition but now its been on offer even without F-16.. In fact IN is mulling about going for the offer or not...
> 
> Let me see if i can back up with some links...



Good for you. But the big question is. HAS IAF shown any interest in purchasing F-35? NO! because IAF is not buying it and lockheed will not be chosen in MRCA tender. and now you are gonna argue YES YES YES IAF WILL GET SUPER SHKTI F-16 block 100 which are better then PAF F-16s and IAF will also buy 10-20 F-35 just to TIST ET!


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## DaRk WaVe

Kinshuk said:


> was that a reply to my question?? I mentioned its a duck against F 22 but slightly better than Euro Fighter.
> 
> If yes then a pretty lame one, if no then Please reply..
> 
> And ya no doubt about Chinese, they are the fastest developing people in the world I am sure they will develop it, and Pakistan will have it too in partnership..
> But the question is, just when



so now are down to compare PAK-FA with EF 

i have told you there are people who will reply while they are 'high' & they are ought to be ignored we cannot deal with all kinda trolls


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## Myth_buster_1

gogbot said:


> Misinformed conclusions.
> 
> IAF is not getting F-35, Has not expressed intrest at all.
> 
> It is Indian Navy that is considering the F-35 for it 3 new upcoming carriers.
> 
> If Naval version of FGFA is ready, They will obviously choose that.



ammm so according to indian fanboys.

IAF/IN will get
Rafale
EF-2000
FA-18
PAF killer F-16s the BLock 100 F-16"IN"
F-35
Gripen

are we missing something else for the ego satisfying fanboy list?


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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> So why would IAF chose F-35 if PAK-FA is superior?
> 
> But Chinese technology is 40X better then Russian and 400X better then Indian.



Sir growler,

And I thought only my jokes are bad... Chinese technology better thats why your very best fighter using Russian Engine..

I always thought you have got a very rational opinion and that you accept the reality and keep neutral attitude, Proved me wrong..

Again,, Sorry for your little knowledge but think before you get owned by someone.. 
IAF rubbished that it wants F 35.. It is Indian navy who is interested in it and its offer is open, you don't wanna accept it, good for your health.

No,

PAKFA is not superior to F 22 and F 35... And many Indians are accepting that even if don't have any facts. But you have your own halo, addled perception that can't be corrected, Sorry..

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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> ammm so according to indian fanboys.
> 
> IAF/IN will get
> Rafale
> EF-2000
> FA-18
> PAF killer F-16s the BLock 100 F-16"IN"
> F-35
> Gripen
> 
> are we missing something else for the ego satisfying fanboy list?



Seriously, we are so idiot... Oh goodness... God please give us some rationalism, why are we so weak? why are we so Idiot??


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## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> so now are down to compare PAK-FA with EF
> 
> i have told you there are people who will reply while they are 'high' & they are ought to be ignored we cannot deal with all kinda trolls



Lo!!! Oh I can see the level of your analytical skill..

My post a troll????


What was wrong with it?? If we make it superior you have problem if we say its inferior then also you have problem.. God bless you girl... 

I just framed a scenario, an avg person would have understood my post.. Sorry it was a troll don't bother to reply me again,,, I want someone with better knowledge,, MASTER KHAN..

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## Myth_buster_1

marcos98 said:


> this is YF22-
> 
> THIS IS F-22 RAPTOR...
> 
> GUYS AND GALS LETS GIVE PAKFA SOME TIME......



Whats your point?

YF-22 first maiden flight was in 1991 and F-22 in 1997. F-22 cleared FOC in 2006-7. So are you trying to tell that IAF must wait 17 years before real PAK-FA clears FOC?


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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> Whats your point?
> 
> YF-22 first maiden flight was in 1991 and F-22 in 1997. F-22 cleared FOC in 2006-7. So are you trying to tell that IAF must wait 17 years before real PAK-FA clears FOC?



Have a look at the picture again though it is not a very clear one, Prototype is something which leaves air for improvment.. Its erroneous to say that there won't be any modification to the aircraft, This was just the PRO TO TYPE, Now India Russia will fund the project, And The development will start... *Was it too hard to understand or I am very smart..*


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## Kinshuk

Oh My hands have started paining now... Lets take a break Growler Sir, We will start again in sometime.. And due to smoking I am wasted while working continuously


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## Awesome

Its definitely a game changer thrown in by the Russians. 

I wonder which way the Indians would really swing. The Americans or the Russians.


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## DaRk WaVe

sancho said:


> However, Russia will go on and sell stuff like every other nation too (US for example to India), the difference is only Russia won't sell latest techs, or arms to potential threats of India that are superior to those that are on offer for India. Russian officals said that they don't see a problem in RD 93 sale for JF 17/FC1, because IAF has similar engine since years and it's still better that those fighters gets this engines, instead of possibly better western (Snecma engines was rumoured for a long too). Neither RD93, nor AL 31 for J10 are offered superior to those engines that are on offer for IAF,nor are they offered with the same tech (TVC) as IAF could get.
> Compare that with US now, that offers F16 with superior techs to India, GE404 and now 414, or even 414 EPE engines for LCA, besides all the other techs and arms they offer directly, even without waiting for RFIs (Hellfire missiles, V22, E-2D...).
> 
> India can't prevent Russia from selling to China, or even to Pakistan, but as long as it has limitiations and won't give India a clear disadvantage, it should be not a big deal right?



If a fighter like JF-17 with an RD-93 can integrate western avionics & weapons (they are no offer & PAF will surely go for them, suppose its a Medium Tech Fighter) can be a threat, because a MICA from FC-1 will be as effective as MICA from a Rafale
& the way chinese are catching up these AL-31s Sold can be a problem don't you think so
coming back to Americans, money is involved here no one wants a 12 Billion Dollar contract to go out of hands, thats why every one will play politics along with usual 'Masala' in weapons for country which is ready to buy everything

anyways found an interesting article for Al-31 will like to share, it has got a very large market no way Russikies will loose it...



> The AL-31F is a high-efficient, high temperature turbofan with module configuration to be installed on SU-37, SU-30MK aircraft as well as on other modification of SU-27S.
> 
> The AL-31F can operate in a wide range of reliably altitudes and flight speeds. The engine works reliably in conditions of deep surge of the air intake with M=2 as well as in flat, straight and inverted spins. The engine ensures unique aircraft maneuverability including super dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.
> 
> The AL-31F provides high gas dynamic stability and strength which maintain engine reliable performance in extreme condition of inlet distortion. The AL-31F can be manufactured both in standard and tropic version.
> 
> Reports of deliveries made through 2002 and planned transfers of large quantities of aircraft of the Su-27/30 family permit a relatively accurate estimate of this segment of the AL-31F engine market. We use the average price of $2.8 million per engine. The actual price fluctuates between $2.7 million and $3 million, but some of the payments, especially in the early 1990s, were made by commodity deliveries or on a clearing basis. Twenty eight Su-27UBK combat trainers were delivered to China in 2000-2002 by way of payment of Russian government debts. We estimate the price of AL-31FP en*gines for Su-30MKIs at $3 million.
> 
> It should be noted that the standard international practice is to deliver 30&#37; of reserve engines along with a commercial batch. There has been no information in the Russian press about such deliveries, but if we assume that engines were delivered on such a scale - either along with commercial consignments or shortly thereafter - the delivery of the 350 AL-31F engines to China, India and Vietnam installed on aircraft would have been followed by the shipment of approximately 100 engines, a value of up to $280 million. With the engines being used in the mountain conditions of high humidity and temperatures, and with Chinese and Indian pilots currently lacking the necessary experience .We already know that China has chosen the AL-31F engine modification with the low-set unit arrangement - the AL-31FN - for its J-10 light fighter, developed from Israel's Lavi project. The Russian press has reported a contract for 300 such engines. Sometime in 2005-2007, when the fleet of Su-27/30/J-11 heavy fighters reaches 350 units, China will need to manufacture 600-800 fourth-generation light fighters to balance its Air Force, not counting probable exports (primarily to Pakistan and Iran). This means that total demand will reach 1,000 AL-31FN engines at the nominal price of $2.8 billion. It is clear that China is unlikely to import such quantities of engines, especially after the license for their production has been sold to India. Therefore, we can expect that, within a few years, when the question of launching the large-scale production of J-10 appears on the agenda, China will want to acquire the right to assemble AL-31F or AL-31FN engines at its own facilities. A less favorable option for Russia is that China will manage to develop its own analog of AL-31. However, even in this case, Russia will be able to deliver up to 300 contract engines and probably individual high-tech components for the Chinese analogs.
> 
> It is less likely that AL-31Fs will be installed on India's LCA fighters. First of all, India is trying to develop its own Kaveri engine. Its chances are poor, but that does not greatly improve the outlook for AL-31F. The problem is that the LCA project has dragged on for too long and, as a result, the prototype has grown obsolete before the beginning of its serial production and even before the end of its testing. Given India's plans to import large quantities of Su-30MKI multi-use fighters, MiG-29K naval fighters and Mirage 2000s, the scale of funding for the LCA project rules out the possibility of any serial production in the near future.
> 
> Thus, if reports about the contract for 300 AL-31FN engines are true, at present we can assume with a high degree of certainty that deliveries of engines and their components, combined with the possible transfer of documentation and technologies for the production of AL-31Fs in China for its national J-10 fighter, may reach $800-850 million.
> 
> Market of AL-31F upgrading
> 
> The AL-31F engine was developed in the mid-1970s for fighters with a takeoff weigh of 23 tonnes and maximum takeoff weight of 28 tonnes. Hence two engines with a maximum thrust of 7.8 tonnes and afterburning thrust of 12.5 tonnes guaranteed Su-27 interceptors a fairly good thrust-to-weight ratio. Later the Sukhoi Design Bureau derived a number of upgraded modifications with greater capabilities from the basic model. Moreover, in this sense Su-27 not simply shared the fate of the majority of successful fighters of the third and fourth generations that went through several stages of upgrading but proved to be a very flexible aircraft with a relatively ample advancement potential. Traditionally such advancement implies the enhancement of the strike potential and the addition of a second pilot. Clearly this implies an increase in the regular and maximum takeoff weight of the aircraft. On the average during the lifetime of a fighter family the weight grows at the rate of one percent a year and the Su-27/30 series definitely fits the pattern. The general parameters of aircraft of this series are shown in Table 3.
> 
> It is paradoxical that while the combat capabilities of Su-27/30 fighters have been dynamically boosted, efforts to enhance the thrust of AL-31F engines have been lagging behind badly. As a result such a crucial parameter for aircraft of the fourth generation as thrust-to-weight ratio is unsatisfactory in the latest modifications of Su-30. Moreover, the fact that in India and China Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK are used in a hot and humid environment and often in mountainous conditions makes things even worse. These conditions further undermine the thrust-to-weight ratio of the aircraft delivered of foreign customers.
> 
> This alone creates sufficient prerequisites for replacing AL-31F engines with more powerful ones in four plus generation fighters delivered to China and India in the foreseeable future. Such a replacement may be conducted simultaneously and in a package with building up the computer capabilities of onboard radioelectornic systems and offering new air-borne weaponry. Russian upgrading programs should offer an edge over Israeli projects sponging on Russian platforms.
> 
> In addition to adjusting Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK to modern thrust-to-weigh ratio requirements the engine thrust enhancement may come handy in the context of the probable integration of longer range and consequently heavier weapons, especially of the air-to-surface class. The PJ-10 3-tonne anti-ship missile may become such a weapon for the Indian fighters and the air-borne version of the Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) ship-to-ship missile for Chinese. In general Russia should launch work now to offer competitive packages of upgrading fighters delivered to China and India with the enhancement of their energy capabilities as their crucial component.
> 
> The market of AL-31F engines with an enhanced thrust is not limited to the Su-30MKI aircraft sold under delivery or license contracts. The following conclusions can be made about market volumes of these engines in the 1990s and in the near future, based on the most conservative estimates of the price of the AL-31F and its modifications, and the demand of the Chinese and Indian Air Forces for aircraft of the Su-27/30 series:
> 
> The nominal price of engines transferred in the framework of contracts completed in the 1990s was $980 million. The price of engines transferred in addition to the delivery contracts is estimated at up to $280 million.
> 
> According to open sources, delivery contracts provide for the transfer of 138 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines, worth up to $385 million, in 2003-2005.
> 
> The biggest revenues are expected from the license contracts for the production of J-11s in China and Su-30MKIs in India. The minimal price of the engine component of the deals is about $1.7 billion.
> 
> China's minimal need for AL-31FN engines for launching the production of the J-10 light fighter is 300 units, worth $850 million. Production on a larger scale will require the acquisition of a license for the manufacture of AL-31FN engines at local facilities or the development of a Chinese analog of the engine.
> 
> Thus, even according to the most conservative estimates, the AL-31 engine market in the coming decade may run up to some $3 billion.



*back to Topic*

If there is any news regarding AL-41 then please share because uptill i have only read about PAK-FA prototype using the 117N(variant of Al-31)



> The 117&#209; engine is a deep modernization of the AL-31F engine (generation 4++)
> 
> The 117&#209; is an aircraft turbofan engine with a variable thrust nozzle of generation 4++ developed by NPO Saturn to the Sukhoi Design Bureau order for the export Su-35 fighter.
> 
> The 117&#209; engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.
> 
> The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.
> 
> Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.
> 
> The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.
> 
> As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117&#209; engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117&#209; engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.
> 
> On 19 February 2008, a new 117&#209;-powered Su-35 aircraft successfully performed its first test flight.


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## sancho

@ gubbi

Shouldn't the N-LCA get such LERX too?



Also, can't these LERX have L Band radar arrays integrated?



> *L-Band Array Angular Coverage*
> The basic array design and integration into the leading edge flap structure are well documented via a wealth of imagery produced at the MAKS 2009 event. Each array employs twelve antenna elements. Three quad TR modules each drive four antenna elements, for a total of twelve elements per array, in three subarrays. *The linear array is embedded in the leading edge of the wing flap*, with the geometrical broadside direction normal to the leading edge. The leading edge skin of the flap covering the AESA is a dielectric radome which is conformal with the flap leading edge shape.





Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array


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## footmarks

Super Falcon said:


> what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in *submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease *what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos



ya, you're so right. that's why China is commissioning JF-17 like anything into PLAAF.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Kinshuk said:


> Lo!!! Oh I can see the level of your analytical skill..
> 
> My post a troll????
> 
> 
> What was wrong with it?? If we make it superior you have problem if we say its inferior then also you have problem.. God bless you girl...
> 
> I just framed a scenario, an avg person would have understood my post.. Sorry it was a troll don't bother to reply me again,,, I want someone with better knowledge,, MASTER KHAN..



I never called you a Troll, If you don't know how to connect replies with your poste then its not my problem, BOY

BTW its Mastan Khan not Master Khan

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## Myth_buster_1

Kinshuk said:


> *had I been a pakistani, I wouldn't have cared if it is as worthy as F-22, I would have instead tried to figure out what I have to counter this Military development. Just give a little stress on your mind and think that way.. Belittling this AC is a fanboy stuff and when we don't want to face the harsh reality that we don't have anything to counter such development..
> *


* You think our AHQ is just waiting for the day when PAK-FA takes off and then they will move their *****? lol. PAF has already selected their 5th generation requirement which is Chinese J-XX. 





Believe me, if the condition has reciprocated, Pakistan being developing and India sitting duck, I wouldn't have given a f**k about if it is as capable as F 22 raptor, But I surely would have ejaculated to look for some counter.

Click to expand...

*what the fudge are you talking about?


> This is not as good as F 22 and even F 35 but is slightly better than Euro Fighter,,,[/COLOR][/B]


Spot on mate! yep. slightly better then EF-2000. 


> *Now tell me what Pakistan is going to do against 250 of these???? *


 will India buy 250 of these. kindly provide me a link to it.

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## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> I never called you a Troll, If you don't know how to connect replies with your poste then its not my problem, BOY
> 
> BTW its Mastan Khan not Master Khan



I apologies I misunderstood. 

And yes Mastan Khan..


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## mrwarrior006

first people used to say PAKFA is rumor
and mock about

now when its in open people are trying to degrade -hence wait till 2015 world will see the truth again


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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> will India buy 250 of these. kindly provide me a link to it.





In almost all the links, I don't know how many did you read actually, It is clearly mentioned India has planned to Buy 250 FGFAs,,, You still want a link??? Or you can just check some on your own bro, you will get this figure easily... Thanks


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## DANGER-ZONE

what ever it looks gud to me..
we cannot discuss its abilities and stealthy features cuz its just a first prototype and we r blind,don't know any of its detail.

OR YAHAN HAR KOI APNI HANK RAHA HAI no buddy knows complete details of stealth structure,cuz its never fully exposed in media.no buddy knows any thing related to stealth features cuz Pakistan haven't any stealth project AT ALL.


*super falcon* i have seen u posting same word throughout the thread "CRAP". ain't there more word in ur vocabulary.


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## Storm Force

I think those So called PAF fanboys calling PAK FA crap and cheap need to take their heads out of the sand. 

This is the first 5th GEN FIGHTER ever built after F22 & JSF. 

It has a very angled Tail and sharp curves which means the RCS is going to be very very low. in deed. 

ADD RAM coating 

Internal weapons bay AND you have a very low observable fgfa. for the IAF & RUSSIAN air forces 

THIS PAK FA will carry the ibris AESA 400 KM TRACKING radar. And BVR missles that engage at mach 5 at 300km 

It will blow anything and everything out of the sky bar F22/JSF .

*It looks like a Flanker redesigned to reduce RCS SIGNIFICANTLY*


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## Myth_buster_1

Kinshuk said:


> Sir growler,
> 
> And I thought only my jokes are bad... Chinese technology better thats why your very best fighter using Russian Engine..


NO NO NO... RUSSIAN TECHNOLOGY GOODER so why is IAF using IAI and French avionics on MKI? 


> IAF rubbished that it wants F 35.. It is Indian navy who is interested in it and its offer is open, you don't wanna accept it, good for your health.


 correct me if i am not wrong. is IAF and IN together practically wants entire aircraft of the world? well thats according to fanboys.
Just because some Indian defense military institute shows interest purchasing it you guys all of sudden jump to conclusion that IAF is buying this IN buying that. i mean come on guys.. be realistic and grow up. 


> PAKFA is not superior to F 22 and F 35... And many Indians are accepting that even if don't have any facts.


Thank you!! thats what all i am trying to say...


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## gogbot

mrwarrior006 said:


> first people used to say PAKFA is rumor
> and mock about
> 
> now when its in open people are trying to degrade -hence wait till 2015 world will see the truth again



You cant expect Rational behavioral from Irrational people.

The people degrading PAk-FA are just  .

Blinded by Emotion or either they are just jerks.

They will only make pointless remarks and Uninformed arguments. So long as it serves their purpose, and satisfies their ego.

credit where credit is due is not acceptable to them.

Even if Hundreds of fighters are inducted in India and Russia.

They will find some way make an argument on why the plane still sucks.

Don't bother trying to get logical responses from Il-logical people


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## DaRk WaVe

> *correct me if i am not wrong. is IAF and IN together practically wants entire aircraft of the world? well thats according to fanboys*.
> Just because some Indian defense military institute shows interest purchasing it you guys all of sudden jump to conclusion that IAF is buying this IN buying that. i mean come on guys.. be realistic and grow up.


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## Gucci Juice

i dont see the point in all of these flames, the pak-fa is a prototype and is the *3rd* 5th generation fighter in the *entire world* the production variant is likely to be a LOT different.

my point is, no matter what the flames no other fighter can match the pak-fa except for the f-22 and maybe the f-35

i would expect the pak-fa to get a kill ratio of 50:1 against the likes of jf-17, j-10, j-11. and 20:1 against ef, rafael, sh, mki, mkk, f 16

however the f22 is clearly better than the pak-fa due to its 150:1 kill ratio 

but dont underestimate the pak-fa a sqn is enough to take out 300 jf-17s easily


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## DaRk WaVe

*Boys & Girls be rational come on, its just a prototype lets not jump on conclusions so early, let it EVOLVE, after all its a 5th Gen* 

*What ever it is, its a big problem for us*


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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> NO NO NO... RUSSIAN TECHNOLOGY GOODER so why is IAF using IAI and French avionics on MKI?
> correct me if i am not wrong. is IAF and IN together practically wants entire aircraft of the world? well thats according to fanboys.
> Just because some Indian defense military institute shows interest purchasing it you guys all of sudden jump to conclusion that IAF is buying this IN buying that. i mean come on guys.. be realistic and grow up.
> 
> Thank you!! thats what all i am trying to say...



Grow up???

Lol!! Sir, Just because you have over 1000 posts you think you are a grown person??

Lockheed martins,, I have access to all its fund, I am the sole person who posts its trade, settle them on accounting, cancel them from custody, can ask for any wire, incoming or outgoing, when some trade happens. Processing all its income from BGIR. Do you understand that???


Who should grow up when you are rubbishing even the links provided by us to you, stating that F 35 offered??? How should I help if your analytical skills got problem that you interpret offer as a packed deal??
Did I say that?? Its on offer..Hope you understand,


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## Red Dwarf

EmO GiRl said:


> *Buys & Girls be rational come on, its just a prototype lets not jump on conclusions so early, let it EVOLVE, after all its a 5th Gen*



No i won't buy it.


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## Kinshuk

Is it not a known fact that 6 fighters are competing for MMRCA???

Whats with you??

These competitors are wasting huge amount of money in trials I think they are fools only..

You talk as if we are going to Induct all of them.. You be realistic, And GROW UP...


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## DaRk WaVe

Red Dwarf said:


> No i won't buy it.



Edited


----------



## Myth_buster_1

gogbot said:


> You cant expect Rational behavioral from Irrational people.
> 
> The people degrading PAk-FA are just  .
> 
> Blinded by Emotion or either they are just jerks.
> 
> They will only make pointless remarks and Uninformed arguments. So long as it serves their purpose, and satisfies their ego.
> 
> credit where credit is due is not acceptable to them.
> 
> Even if Hundreds of fighters are inducted in India and Russia.
> 
> They will find some way make an argument on why the plane still sucks.
> 
> Don't bother trying to get logical responses from Il-logical people



pointless arguments would be... if i say... J-11 is superior to PAK-FA or JF-17 is par with PAK-FA. all i am trying to get through your thick indian skulls is that American stealth aircraft are by far the best in the world. PAK-FA is more like a upgraded Su-35 with stealth technology.

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## Kinshuk

Sorry for loosing my cool.. Serious Apology but just can't take anything you frame on your own crass percepton..


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## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> If a fighter like JF-17 with an RD-93 can integrate western avionics & weapons (they are no offer & PAF will surely go for them, suppose its a Medium Tech Fighter) can be a threat, because a MICA from FC-1 will be as effective as MICA from a Rafale
> & the way chinese are catching up these AL-31s Sold can be a problem don't you think so


First of all, I disagree with you that a possible Mica from JF 17 is as good as from Rafale, simply because Rafale is the more capable plattform. They proved to guide Mica IFs with their OSF, data link and even the Spectra EWS is said to have some guidence ability for weapons, not to mention the different radar. Without degrading JF 17, but I doubt its techs will be as capable. 
Now coming back to the engine, what if JF 17 would have got M53 P2 engine of Mirage 2000 (95kN), or such 90kN M88, don't you think it would be a bigger threat then? 
China got AL 31 and for sure has it has been an advantage for them in developing WS 10, but they can hardly catch up with those Russian techs, whereas Russia is improving more (AL 41 now) and these better techs are available for India (S117 engine most likely for MKI upg, AL 41 for FGFA...).
Again the point is, as long as Russia sells and even co-develop their best techs and weapons with India, I don't see a threat getting bigger.


EmO GiRl said:


> coming back to Americans, money is involved here no one wants a 12 Billion Dollar contract to go out of hands, thats why every one will play politics along with usual 'Masala' in weapons for country which is ready to buy everything


No doubt about that, but I can live better with a partner like Russia that also makes money, but without posing a seroius threats to India by selling latest arms to enemies. Wouldn't you prefer such a partner for Pakistan too?


EmO GiRl said:


> anyways found an interesting article for Al-31 will like to share, it has got a very large market no way Russikies will loose it...


Thanks, but if you don't mind I will read it later, it's too long and I am too curious at the moment to get new infos about Pak Fa.


EmO GiRl said:


> If there is any news regarding AL-41 then please share because uptill i have only read about PAK-FA prototype using the 117C(variant of Al-31)


From another forum:



> According to NPO saturn's Ila Fedorov the actual prototype flew with totally new engines with superior thrust (compared to the SU-35 117S), new fadec and TVC; Ila says that enough numbers of this secret engine have been produced so that they can be used for the entire test program.



Secret Défense: Premier vol du Sukhoï T-50, le futur avion de combat de la Russie

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## Kinshuk

Growler said:


> pointless arguments would be... if i say... J-11 is superior to PAK-FA or JF-17 is par with PAK-FA. all i am trying to get through your thick indian skulls is that American stealth aircraft are by far the best in the world. PAK-FA is more like a upgraded Su-35 with stealth technology.



Deal... Better than to EF to end the argument.. And to those who thinks its not even worth it, thn better then F 16 block 52.. lol! 

and ya how can I abandon my Indian brothers.. Better than any 7th gen Fighter US of A will have in future,, may be 2050.. 2100..


----------



## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> *Boys & Girls be rational come on, its just a prototype lets not jump on conclusions so early, let it EVOLVE, after all its a 5th Gen*
> 
> *What ever it is, its a big problem for us*



Nope, its a big problem for all of us. PAF and china will counter it by JXX and then we will try for something better, and then you. The chain goes on. I am not against it, just saying, military spending should not be something to celebrate.

Ok, who am I kidding, I want to party!!


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## Kinshuk

Sancho is one of the better persons I have seen here on this forum.. and Adeos amigo Pak yes something and this emo girl is also cute. lollllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Thomas

My guess is the T-50's RCS value is somewhere close to the F-35 but not as good as the F-22. Curious if anyone knows if the T-50 uses a helmet mounted display system?


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## airforce999

your comment is real matured thinking.......


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## Myth_buster_1

Gucci Juice said:


> my point is, no matter what the flames no other fighter can match the pak-fa except for the f-22 and maybe the f-35


So slowly indians are getting in their new senses that PAKFA is not superior to F-35-22. and thats what all i am trying to tell. 


> i would expect the pak-fa to get a kill ratio of 50:1 against the likes of jf-17, j-10, j-11. and 20:1 against ef, rafael, sh, mki, mkk, f 16


really? how did you come to this conclusion when indians are saying its not fair to judge the design of this plane by the pictures and here you are jumping to a conclusion with fanboy kill ratios. PAK-FA is not fully stealth as F-22 or F-35 and its main stealth weakness is its huge exposed engines. No stealth exhaust like F-35 or F-22 so it will be easier to spot PAKFA with IRST system without even turning on your radar. IRST has the capability to track targets up to 40KM. 



> but dont underestimate the pak-fa a sqn is enough to take out 300 jf-17s easily


  why not just one PAK-FA and when in the hands of super shkti indian pilots it can simply fly in Pakistan and just fire one bullet in each JF_17 parked on the tarmac and that way it will only use 300 bullets or 600 bullets to wipe out entire PAF fleet! 
Is that what it takes to satisfy indian dirty ego?


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## Kinshuk

Thomas said:


> My guess is the T-50's RCS value is somewhere close to the F-35 but not as good as the F-22. Curious if anyone knows if the T-50 uses a helmet mounted display system?



Don't make such GASES, already environment is very polluted here...


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## DANGER-ZONE

this is FACT if Pakistan have made this fighter then all Pakistani members would be bouncing on their chairs and Indians would be saying it CRAP too.
IT IS BY NATURE.....

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## Storm Force

Seems to me THAT SOME PAKISTANI fan boys have got really UPSET by the maiden flight of the PAK FA fighter. 

For me it looks like a STEALTH VERSION of the flanker series. 

If flankers are considered world class 4th generation fighters and most will agree they are ,,,especially SU30MKI/SU35 

Then SURELY ,,, THE NEW PAK FA will also be world class. 

For those like growler/ super falcon telling us its cheap/crap/ cant be as good as F35 '''theres a element of green eyed envy. 

PAK FA will now see $10 billion of further investment development and wen in 2017-2019 it enters service in both russia & india,,,, it will defo challenge both the AMERICAM fighters. 

*AS FOR THE REST including J10/J17 thats NOW YESTERDAYS NEWS too old too little no USE to anybody in 2017*


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## Kinshuk

Gucci Juice,

Awesome, Why should we buy 250 then??? talk sense man.. you just made me look for the corner to hide myself..


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> SPAK-FA is not fully stealth as F-22 or F-35 and its main stealth weakness is its huge exposed engines. No stealth exhaust like F-35 or F-22 so it will be easier to spot PAKFA with IRST system without even turning on your radar. IRST has the capability to track targets up to 40KM.



The engine of PAKFA will not be the one seen in videos. It is still under testing. Lot of modification to be done.
Besides, lets say IRST system mounted on F16/jf17 etc have range 40 km, and can detect PAKFA. But an AESA mounted on PAKFA will have higher range for sure, for non stealth planes that it will be facing. So it has the same advantage over non-stealth planes as F22/35 have, it will detect them earlier, with better situational awareness.

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## Thomas

mrwarrior006 said:


> first people used to say PAKFA is rumor
> and mock about
> 
> now when its in open people are trying to degrade -hence wait till 2015 world will see the truth again



I think it's more there was so much hype about it being on par with the F-22. Then when people see it reality sets in that it isn't. But then again it is quite a bit cheaper to build then the F-22 as well.


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## Kinshuk

Storm Force said:


> Seems to me THAT SOME PAKISTANI fan boys have got really UPSET by the maiden flight of the PAK FA fighter.
> 
> For me it looks like a STEALTH VERSION of the flanker series.
> 
> If flankers are considered world class 4th generation fighters and most will agree they are ,,,especially SU30MKI/SU35
> 
> Then SURELY ,,, THE NEW PAK FA will also be world class.
> 
> For those like growler/ super falcon telling us its cheap/crap/ cant be as good as F35 '''theres a element of green eyed envy.
> 
> PAK FA will now see $10 billion of further investment development and wen in 2017-2019 it enters service in both russia & india,,,, it will defo challenge both the AMERICAM fighters.
> 
> *AS FOR THE REST including J10/J17 thats NOW YESTERDAYS NEWS too old too little no USE to anybody in 2017*



Arey bhai, 

Itni mehnat se shant hue the sab,, Thanks ab dekho reply..


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## Myth_buster_1

Thomas said:


> My guess is the T-50's RCS value is somewhere close to the F-35 but not as good as the F-22. Curious if anyone knows if the T-50 uses a helmet mounted display system?




I would not say as good as F-35 in terms of stealth. but T-50 IR signature is even worst then Su-27. the engine nozzle is just too big to hide. other then that T-50 wins the 3rd place now in world top ten air crafts...


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## DaRk WaVe

*@Kinshuk* 

stop posting *ONE LINERS*, I am saying you that for the first & last time

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## Kinshuk

danger-zone said:


> this is FACT if Pakistan have made this fighter then all Pakistani members would be bouncing on their chairs and Indians would be saying it CRAP too.
> IT IS BY NATURE.....



You just helped me vomit out the thing I wanted to,, Exactly what I feel...


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## Kinshuk

EmO GiRl said:


> *@Kinshuk*
> 
> stop posting *ONE LINER*, I am saying you that for the first & last time



I was just trying to improve the flamed atmosphere here. Ok I won't do it again, Sorry, No one appreciate good work now a days..

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## jaunty



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## Thomas

one could interpret you saying the T-50 is an albatross with that pic.


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## jaunty

Thomas said:


> one could interpret you saying the T-50 is an albatross with that pic.



A stealthy albatross


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## mrwarrior006

from indian pov its meant for this region
its not competing with F22 or f35

hence its gone be supreme fighter in this region atleast ,if it doesnt meets f22 or f35


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> I would not say as good as F-35 in terms of stealth. but *T-50 IR signature is even worst then Su-27.*



knock.....knock.....fail! 




Growler said:


> the engine nozzle is just too big to hide. other then that T-50 wins the 3rd place now in world top ten air crafts...



The real Pakfa engines are still in development, what you see in the picture is 117 engines, and for the millionth time it's a prototype! Changes will be made.

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## Kinshuk

Lets not assume anything as for now.. Speculation just hurt in the end.. It is surely going to be better the EF but to be in the league of F 22 or even F 35, We must wait.. Let them release some stats on this. I sometime feel I should quit Locheeds job if Sukhoi is ready to provide me one.. lol!!


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## Awesome

Storm Force said:


> *It looks like a Flanker redesigned to reduce RCS SIGNIFICANTLY*



Ditto.

How it fares up to the 5th Generation line of planes? Can't really tell from these pics. 

Anyway, I think an Indian Pak-Fa threat is a good 10 years away.


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## Dark Angel

r0ck said:


> What's wrong with the landing gear in this video??




Whenever a fighter or any aircraft is taken for 1st test flight the landing gear is always down.Just for precaution that even if there is a malfunction on board it can land smoothly

*See this video its a boeing 787 dreamliner *

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## sathruvinasakh

Gut Job Russia.Keep going.

As per my interaction with some aviation experts,the design of PAK-FA is one of the best till date.

Since many people are judging the bird only with few online available and some internal reports,I say is It better to wait till the production model takes to skies.

If a technology demonstrator itself is this much impressive,then I can expect the punch of full version production and FOC aircraft.
Its Internal weapons bay is hugeeeeee than compared to F-22 and critics says it will carry more internal fuel than F-22.
Its AAM load is impressive and is better than f-22 so far considering the progress of developments. 
but on the RCS ,no one can judge the bird unless one sees it in a combat or exercise.
going per reports,FGFA which might be the indian version will have 2 seats instead of 1 on this TD.
Lol...... our EU people already getting jitters looking at the PAK-FA.
It will outpace JSF as easily it can,but F-22? still have to wait and see ,since both are from different timelines.


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## Kinshuk

sathruvinasakh said:


> Gut Job Russia.Keep going.
> 
> As per my interaction with some aviation experts,the design of PAK-FA is one of the best till date.
> 
> Since many people are judging the bird only with few online available and some internal reports,I say is It better to wait till the production model takes to skies.
> 
> If a technology demonstrator itself is this much impressive,then I can expect the punch of full version production and FOC aircraft.
> Its Internal weapons bay is hugeeeeee than compared to F-22 and critics says it will carry more internal fuel than F-22.
> Its AAM load is impressive and is better than f-22 so far considering the progress of developments.
> but on the RCS ,no one can judge the bird unless one sees it in a combat or exercise.
> going per reports,FGFA which might be the indian version will have 2 seats instead of 1 on this TD.
> Lol...... our EU people already getting jitters looking at the PAK-FA.
> It will outpace JSF as easily it can,but F-22? still have to wait and see ,since both are from different timelines.



Some people are questioning its A$$, I mean exausts. Please advise on that? Does that make it unstealthy?


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## Kinshuk

Please provide it technically and also in simple language. Simple language for uneducated people like me.


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## beckham

Growler said:


> I would not say as good as F-35 in terms of stealth. but T-50 IR signature is even worst then Su-27. *the engine nozzle is just too big to hide.* other then that T-50 wins the 3rd place now in world top ten air crafts...



Lets hope they deal with that in the future prototypes or in the final production variant. Anyways Russians wouldn't be compromising on performance for higher levels of stealth.


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## jha

imo engine nozzles will be taken care of when the engine intended for it are incorporated into it...and anyways thinking that russians will give big IR signature of their masterpiece for the sake of redesigning the nozzles is absurd...


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## gubbi

sancho said:


> @ gubbi
> 
> Shouldn't the N-LCA get such LERX too?


That depends on the requirements of IN and NAL/HAL/DRDO.



> Also, can't these LERX have L Band radar arrays integrated?



Presently what is known is that PAK-FA flew without a radar. This is its maiden flight! Radar integration will take time, and integration of L band radars will depend upon further tests. We will have to wait for quite sometime for that.


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## RPK

Russia to start receiving fifth-generation fighters in 2013 | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


*The first batch of Russian fifth-generation fighters will go into service in 2013, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Friday.*

A prototype of the future fighter made a succesful 47-minute maiden flight on Friday in Russia's Far East.

"The first Russian fifth-generation fighters will be put into service with the Air Force in 2013, and regular deliveries will start in 2015," Putin said.

He added that the development of the aircraft was still underway and the flight tests would continue.

"A lot still has to be done [to make the fighter operational]...both in terms of the engines and weaponry," Putin said.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, dubbed T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique combat plane" which combines the capabilities of a heavy air superiority fighter and a strike aircraft.

MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti)


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## SSGPA1

Lots of work to be done. First of all it is a twin engine jet with a bigger frame which means more fuel and that is okay for Russia with all the gas but not true for India.

Second, F-22 and JSF have vertical take off capability which is not the case in PAK-FA.

People compare everything new with F-22 and think that JSF (F-35) is not better than F-22, quiet frankly, F-22 lines of production have been stopped or will come to an end soon. JSF is the true 5th gen fighter and this fighter is no where close to JSF.

Funds from India should dry up too because of MRCA. I mean no one in right frame of mind will get EU or US tech for MRCA and then invest in PAK-FA (T-50) at the same time.

I think in the end this project will prove beneficial to the IAF but it I doubt that it will ever become a part of the IAF. I think PLAF will benefit more from this project.


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## RPK

FACTBOX: Russia's fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth-generation fighter performed its maiden flight on Friday.

* The T-50 is the domestic name of Russia's fifth-generation fighter plane which has been developed as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

* The project started its development by the Sukhoi design bureau since it won the tender in April 2002.

* The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

* The new fighter's exterior design was approved on December 10, 2004.

* Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the KNAAPO aircraft building company based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where three experimental fighters will be built for testing.

* In February 2009, the first prototype was constructed. After the plane was successfully tested on the runway, a decision was made to stage the maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, rather than in Moscow.

* The prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight on January 29, 2010, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

* Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

* The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

* The combat aircraft is fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from the Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn.

* The PAK FA can carry either eight next-generation air-to-air R-77 missiles, or two large controllable anti-ship bombs weighing 1,500 kg each.

* The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range.

* The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about 5,500 kilometers.

* The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

* The newest combat aircraft are planned to be mass produced in Komsomolsk-on-Amur from 2015.


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## RPK

PAK-FA Sukhoi T-50 | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces


Estimated Performance:
----------------------------------
Dimensions (m):
- wing 14,2; S=78,8 m2
- length 22
- height 6,05
Weight (kg):
- max 37000
- normal 26000
- empty 18500
Fuel (kg): 10300
Combat load (kg):
- max 7500
- AA max 2260 conformal
Speed (km/h):
- max 2100; M2,0;
- rate of climb 350 m/s
- min 0 OVT
- cruise 1300
Alt (m): 20000
Flight range (km): 4000/5500 (2x2000kg)
- supersonic 2500
Runway (m): 350 (w/o OVT)
G-force (g): 10-11
EPR: 0,05 m2
Wing overload (kg/m2):
- max 470
- normal 330
Thrust-to-weight ratio:
- max 0,84
- normal 1,19
Fuel rate: 2,55 kg/km
Flight time: 3,3 h

Engine: AL-41F (117C on first prototypes)
- thrust 2x15500/2x9800
- compressor: diameter 932mm, 3 steps
- weight 1350 kg
- pressure increase 4,2-4,5
- life time 4000 hours
- overhaul life 1500 hours
- nozzle:
weight: 380 kg
deviation angle +-16 deg in any direction, +-20 deg flat
deviation speed: 60 deg/sec

Electronics:
N050(?)BRLS AFAR/AESA

Armament: ? 2x30mm gun
Hardpoints: 10 (conf.), possible 2*4 external

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## jha

Check out the **insane* range*! 

Quote:
MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth-generation fighter performed its maiden flight on Friday.

* The T-50 is the domestic name of Russia's fifth-generation fighter plane which has been developed as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

* The project started its development by the Sukhoi design bureau since it won the tender in April 2002.

* The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

* The new fighter's exterior design was approved on December 10, 2004.

* Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the KNAAPO aircraft building company based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where three experimental fighters will be built for testing.

* In February 2009, the first prototype was constructed. After the plane was successfully tested on the runway, a decision was made to stage the maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, rather than in Moscow.

* The prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight on January 29, 2010, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

* Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

* The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

* The combat aircraft is fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from the Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn.

* The PAK FA can carry either eight next-generation air-to-air R-77 missiles, or two large controllable anti-ship bombs weighing 1,500 kg each.

* The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range.

* The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about *5,500 kilometers*.  

* The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

* The newest combat aircraft are planned to be mass produced in Komsomolsk-on-Amur from 2015.

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2280&catid=255

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## jha

FACTBOX: Russia's fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

Check out the **insane* range*! this bird is capable of flying real deep...


MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth-generation fighter performed its maiden flight on Friday.

* The T-50 is the domestic name of Russia's fifth-generation fighter plane which has been developed as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

* The project started its development by the Sukhoi design bureau since it won the tender in April 2002.

* The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

* The new fighter's exterior design was approved on December 10, 2004.

* Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the KNAAPO aircraft building company based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where three experimental fighters will be built for testing.

* In February 2009, the first prototype was constructed. After the plane was successfully tested on the runway, a decision was made to stage the maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, rather than in Moscow.

* The prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight on January 29, 2010, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

* Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

* The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

* The combat aircraft is fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from the Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn.

* The PAK FA can carry either eight next-generation air-to-air R-77 missiles, or two large controllable anti-ship bombs weighing 1,500 kg each.

* The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range.

* The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about *5,500 kilometers*. 

* The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

* The newest combat aircraft are planned to be mass produced in Komsomolsk-on-Amur from 2015.

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## kashith

SSGPA1 said:


> Lots of work to be done. First of all it is a twin engine jet with a bigger frame which means more fuel and that is okay for Russia with all the gas but not true for India.


So are you saying India will not have enough atf to fuel its aircrafts?
We do have few reserves but they are enough to take care of defence needs


SSGPA1 said:


> Second, F-22 and JSF have vertical take off capability which is not the case in PAK-FA.




F-22 does not has VTOL capabilities....Similiarly only JSF-C has VTOL capabilities.



SSGPA1 said:


> People compare everything new with F-22 and think that JSF (F-35) is not better than F-22, quiet frankly, F-22 lines of production have been stopped or will come to an end soon. JSF is the true 5th gen fighter and this fighter is no where close to JSF.




JSF is no match for the raptor..It is too expensive to maintain the raptor that is why JSF came in picture..Just like F-15 and F-16..



SSGPA1 said:


> Funds from India should dry up too because of MRCA. I mean no one in right frame of mind will get EU or US tech for MRCA and then invest in PAK-FA (T-50) at the same time.


Do you think India does not have enough money ???We are solvent dude....Not asking for money or soft loans....We can pay for both the fighter jets..



SSGPA1 said:


> I think in the end this project will prove beneficial to the IAF but it I doubt that it will ever become a part of the IAF. I think PLAF will benefit more from this project.


Amazing analysis..Chinese are already developing J-XX..Why will they be partners in PAKFA.???


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## sancho

SSGPA1 said:


> First of all it is a twin engine jet with a bigger frame which means more fuel and that is okay for Russia with all the gas but not true for India.


Sorry, but I heared a lot of strange comments against Pak Fa today, but this tops everything!
It's not good because it burns too much fuel???


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## Storm Force

PAK FA has nothing to do with CHINA..

NEXT THING will here ACM tanvir is in moscow negoiating free sales of PAK FA for PAF


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## Hulk

I am enjoying the fact that how few students having no expertise enjoying criticizing something that they can not even think of developing a spare part of.


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## xebex

Ultimate Warrior said:


> Finally the forum returns to its glory, we are all discussing defense and not trolls. Keep it up guys.
> 
> *The spy satellites from all over the world must have keeping a eye on the beast.*



lol man u r absolutely right. Am sure if the russians launch ONE anti satellite missile straight up from PAKFA's airstrip, it will knock down atleast a few dozen spy sattelites for sure.


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## RPK

xebex said:


> lol man u r absolutely right. Am sure if the russians launch ONE anti satellite missile straight up from PAKFA's airstrip, it will knock down atleast a few dozen spy sattelites for sure.


Russian spy sat may be one of the contender


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## sathruvinasakh

Kinshuk said:


> Some people are questioning its A$$, I mean exausts. Please advise on that? Does that make it unstealthy?



Boy,I am always a fan of technology and kept on observing it as a nuetral observer.
the Excerpts from my interaction with some folks :
PAK-FA *TD* has only flown ,it means only technological demonstrator. 
The bird has flow with using some of the Su-35 avionics and systems while its own systems are nearing completion including the engine.
So,I dont like to see people jumping on bench after looking at its A$$.
There will be a pretty makeover which will occur in the later versions which I mean prototypes and production models.
But the most important thing to note is,since the first flight happened russian engineers but their A$$ at heavy work in fastening the program after a successful flight.Ofcourse the first success in a complex aircraft will improve confidence in everyone.
I personally bet that the IOC will be 2015 at a maximum possible time with an FOC interlocking 2016-2017.

And for people who are worried about its RCS,I assure you to chill out with Russian vodka.No engineer at Su is talking not even a point less than f-22.Which means, this bird will be a strict contender to F-22 and JSF is a history.
They say,PAK-FA and its other variant FGFA can still be stealthy even though they got wet in rain or taking heavy snow.
The main concept behind the fighter is,to make it less maintainance hazzle and with high UP times.
And my part of congratulations to Indians as well who will still share a significant part of work despite of their poor engineering prowess/experience .

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## Dante

Storm Force said:


> Seems to me THAT SOME PAKISTANI fan boys have got really UPSET by the maiden flight of the PAK FA fighter.
> 
> For me it looks like a STEALTH VERSION of the flanker series.
> 
> If flankers are considered world class 4th generation fighters and most will agree they are ,,,especially SU30MKI/SU35
> 
> Then SURELY ,,, THE NEW PAK FA will also be world class.
> 
> For those like growler/ super falcon telling us its cheap/crap/ cant be as good as F35 '''theres a element of green eyed envy.
> 
> PAK FA will now see $10 billion of further investment development and wen in 2017-2019 it enters service in both russia & india,,,, it will defo challenge both the AMERICAM fighters.
> 
> *AS FOR THE REST including J10/J17 thats NOW YESTERDAYS NEWS too old too little no USE to anybody in 2017*



well sir

i think PAK FA would be a serious contender for F22, and probably surpasses F35

Stealthiness isnt everything and RCS is only one factor in the whole fighter jet combat system. Even with F35, many analyst doubted its stealthiness against SU30 & SU35 radar


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## Luftwaffe

The size of this monster is somewhat equal to YF-23..infact i believe some of the design parameters are that of YF-23..look at the canopy (copy of YF-23), the nosecone a slight difference from that of YF-23 but similarities exist, study the tail of both planes, and the over all fuselage size..


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> The size of this monster is somewhat equal to YF-23..infact i believe some of the design parameters are that of YF-23..look at the canopy (copy of YF-23), the nosecone a slight difference from that of YF-23 but similarities exist, study the tail of both planes, and the over all fuselage size..



Of course there are similarities. However, it is not a copy (if you mean to imply that). If you want a product for a purpose, two people will end up designing a very similar looking product. The same laws of physics apply to the Russians as well.























credit to:Boyko_Borisov

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## gubbi

Nice underside pic of PAK-FA

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## Dark Angel

Russia has unveiled its new stealth fighter jet, meant to boost the country's ageing arsenal of weaponry and be a rival to the US F-22 Raptor.

The Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA, made its maiden flight in Russia's far east. Test pilot Sergei Bogdan said it was "easy and comfortable to pilot". 

*Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said much work needed to be done before mass production began in 2015*. 

Stealth technology is meant to nearly eliminate a plane's radar signature. 

The plane is being developed by the Sukhoi company at its Komsomolsk-on-Amur production plant. 

The new jet has been developed in partnership with India. It is seen as a significant milestone in Russia's efforts to modernise its Soviet-era military hardware. 

Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan said he was convinced that the project would "excel its Western rivals in *cost-effectiveness *and will not only allow strengthening of the defence power of the Russian and Indian air forces, but also gain a significant share of the world market". 

The company says the jet's stealth features considerably enhance its combat effectiveness in all weathers. 

Its features include: all-weather capability, ability to use a take-off strip of just 300-400 metres, capacity for sustained supersonic flight including repeated in-flight refuelling, advanced avionics, simultaneous attacks on air and ground targets. 

But analysts have denied the jet is a leap forward. 

"*It's just a prototype *lacking new engines and a new radar," military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer told the Associated Press news agency. 

Originally scheduled for 2007, the T-50's maiden flight was repeatedly postponed because of technical problems. 

Observers of Russia's recent military modernisation drive say it has been plagued by delays and quality problems


*The thing is its a prototype and when u see this baby in 5 years time ready for mass production there will be new engine and radar and when u see it all complete ans shiny painted black u will realise its beuty

looks should not be taken in defence as taken seriously in beuty pagents, What if russia made something better than F22 and had nothing inside it 


Looking at the specs comming in this babe is made for one thing and one thing only ----KILL----*


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## Luftwaffe

i am referring to similarities i did not say PAK-FA is a copy even if it was i would have been really glad to see it in the skies challenging that dolphin called F-35 indeed the short clip in which the PAK-FA did a lil turn it was amazing. see the video on this thread where the plane turn to right in flight i think..


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## damiendehorn

Holy **** nice bird


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## Ruag

Stealth alignments of PAK-FA and F-22 (credit: Planeman)

View attachment 04f32c29024382d95a117589d89ffa84.jpg

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## Ruag

The graphic below depicts how the YF-22 evolved dramatically into the F-22 - 



Similarly, the PAK-FA too will undergo several changes before it enters service.

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## Ruag

Credit Planeman -


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## krish

marcos98 said:


> BELLY SIDE LOOKS LIKE YF23



dude no offense is this f22 or f35 prototype or some other different aircraft


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## xebex

krish said:


> dude no offense is this f22 or f35 prototype or some other different aircraft



YF23 was a prototype made by Northrop for USAF, but lost the "Adcanced Tactical Figther competiton" to Lockheed's YF-22, which later became the F22 Raptor.


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> i am referring to similarities i did not say PAK-FA is a copy even if it was i would have been really glad to see it in the skies challenging that dolphin called F-35 indeed the short clip in which the PAK-FA did a lil turn it was amazing. see the video on this thread where the plane turn to right in flight i think..



Roger that.

It indeed was a spectacular sight to see that bird flying! It was worth the wait.
IMHO, PAK-FA when finally inducted into service, would be a serious contender to the F-22!


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## no_name

A refreshing new look from the typical su-27 type layout.


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## Thomas

gubbi said:


> Of course there are similarities. However, it is not a copy (if you mean to imply that). If you want a product for a purpose, two people will end up designing a very similar looking product. The same laws of physics apply to the Russians as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> credit to:Boyko_Borisov



While Russia may have imitated some what the YF-23. As the photo's show the YF-23 incorporates far superior stealth characteristics then the T-50.


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## gubbi

Thomas said:


> While Russia may have imitated some what the YF-23. As the photo's show the YF-23 incorporates *far superior stealth characteristics then the T-50.*



Can you explain how?
btw, IMHO, PAK-FA share more characteristics with YF-22 than YF-23, and I dont find any imitation. Those pics were for comparison, to point out differences.


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## ptldM3

Thomas said:


> While Russia may have imitated some what the YF-23. As the photo's show the *YF-23 incorporates far superior stealth characteristics then the T-50*.



Be careful when using the term "superior stealth" Chances are you don't work for Northrop or Sukhoi, so you dont know either of the aircrafts rcs. Granted, the exhaust nossles on the Pakfa are a work in proggress and not very stealthy. However, One has to remember the engines in the pakfa was modified AL-31, 117's, thus we don't know how the final layout will appear, it may have similar nossles to the F-35 or possibly F-22. Other than the engines everything look the way it should. Stealth aircraft come in the form of smooth lines and sharp edges, the Pakfa has both. Also don't let the primered finish fool you, it would look much cleaner/stealthier with a nice coat of RAM. Like i have been saying all along the final product will look different to what we have seen so far.


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## Luftwaffe

Thomas whether Russians did or not this thing surely is a big fat challenge to europeans to me atleast european are nervous specially UK..with SU-35/PAK-FA i see RAF to be a dwarf air force with 160 ef-2000 (might increase 1 ore squadron) and around say 138 ordered (might increase to 150) F-35 against PAK-FA number(?) and SU-27/SU-33/SU-35 this is called a real threat and challenge.

I would also like to know is there any future possibilities of Russians offering PAK-FA to France as Russian has bought or is in negotiations for warships from France..could the relations go beyond that..positive feed back would be appreciated.


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## white_pawn

*Russia tests Vth gen fighter, IAF cheers *

India Wants 250 Of Its Own Stealth Fighters 

Rajat Pandit | TNN 

New Delhi: Even as New Delhi and Moscow are now close to inking the detailed commercial contract for joint production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the advanced stealth jet tore into the skies for the first time in Russia on Friday. 

The 45-minute maiden flight of the Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA, the first technology demonstrator of the FGFA, at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur facility in Siberia was dubbed successful by Russian officials. Its a very encouraging development, said a senior IAF officer. The IAF has reason to cheer since it hopes to induct 250 of these fighters towards its aim of building a true expeditionary aerospace force. Fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities but the FGFA incorporate stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well. 

Though the Russian military-industrial complex is still to recover from its steep downfall after the Soviet Union break-up, the Sukhoi T-50 is being billed as a rival to the American F/A-22 Raptor, with a unit cost upwards of $140 million. While the Raptor is the only operational FGFA in the world as of now, another one, the F-35 Lightning-II, is being developed jointly by the US, UK and seven other countries. While the Indian FGFA will be based upon the Sukhoi T-50, it will be built to IAF specifications already handed over to Russia. The detailed contract is being worked out... It has been in the making for some years now, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd chief Ashok Nayak told TOI on Friday. Defence minister A K Antony has declared that India wants the development of its FGFA to be over by 2016 to ensure the IAF begins its induction from 2017.


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## gambit

ptldM3 said:


> Glad you like it, *what do you think about the rear?* too Flankerish?


The way the exhausts are designed, rear aspect IR and RCS signatures will doubled or even tripled from front. Not good. Dead meat for the Raptor.

Exhaust nozzle convergent coupled with throttle setting control thrust. Everything on a body create its own RCS signature and contribute to the overall RCS value of the body. The convergent-divergent mechanisms of an afterburning turbojet engine are no exceptions, if anything, they are the major RCS creators of the rear aspect.






Take a look at 'iris' style exhaust convergent-divergent nozzle above. It is called 'iris' because the mechanisms works the same way the human eye controls its pupil opening. Look at all the 'feathers' and the gaps between them. Those are corner reflectors and I have explained plenty enough here on how dangerous corner reflectors are to designs intending to be radar LO.






Now look at the F-22 exhaust convergent-divergent mechanisms above. They are simpler in designs and because there are less mechanical 'doodads' such as actuators and 'feathers' the F-22 exhausts are far less RCS contributors than exhausts with the 'iris' convergent-divergent exhausts.

The downside to the F-22's exhaust mechanisms is that it restrict thrust vectoring to 2D, whereas with the 'iris' style, the exhaust TV can be 3D, provided there are sufficient clearance between nozzles, which lead us to the controversial subject of design philosophy, specifically engine placements. Wide area engine placements have advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I have never been a proponent of wide area engine placements. The argument here is that for any reason, from bird ingestion to battle damage to 'Acts of God', in the event of a catastrophic engine failure that result in an engine explosion, the other engine would be somewhat protected. Given the fact that the airframe area between the engines are not empty but contain fuel, wirings and assorted mechanical items, an exploding engine will create enough collateral damage to render the aircraft unflyable anyway.

In the event of a non-exploding engine failure, widely spaced engines will create asymmetric thrust that can send the aircraft into a flat spin, which can be nonrecoverable. The combination here is speed, altitude, attitude and how far apart are the engines that the resulting asymmetric thrust will send the aircraft into a flat spin. An extreme example of asymmetric thrust is the C-17A Engine-Out Compensation System (EOCS) software upgrade to the aircraft's FLCS during take-offs and landings. For EOCS, the critical engine is the most outboard one on each wing if its companion outboard engine on the other wing fail. The software upgrade, upon sensing engine failure, would command a rudder deflection to compensate for the inevitable yaw (lateral) movement by the aircraft.

AOPA Online: AOPA Pilot's "An Invitation to Fly" - Beyond the Private


> If one engine fails, for example, *asymmetric thrust can cause the airplane to yaw severely.* Much of the multiengine flight training curriculum centers on handling such emergency situations.



Fighter aircrafts with multiple engines do not have as wide engine placements as multi-engined transports, nevertheless, asymmetric thrust is still a potential problem for pilot training. The F-14 and F-15 have wider engine placement schemes than the F-18. The wider the engine placements the higher of some energy loss when there is thrust. Any mechanical engineer will tell you that it is better to have thrust as much inline with the main longitudinal axis of the body as possible. It is necessary that thrust be in parallel, but the closer to the central axis, the greater the concentration of their combined thrust to the longitudinal axis, the more energy efficient the TV system. The downside is that the closer the engines are together, there will so little room for movement that 2D vectoring is the only option.

3D vectoring require more complex flight control laws -- *IF* -- the desire is to automate the thrust vectoring. Automation require the removal of some of the decision making process from the pilot, which is *NOT* always a positive. The US have done extensive testing on the integration of propulsion into flight control laws, of which the C-17A EOCS is one deployed example, here is the history...

Propulsion Control of Airplanes


> In July 1989, the tail engine of the DC-10 of United Airlines Flight 232, enroute from Denver to Minneapolis, sustained a "catastrophic uncontained failure" that created a hail of shrapnel, slicing the hydraulics lines of all three independent systems, leaving the aircraft "marginally controllable" at 37,000 feet. Contrary to the realistically motivated consensus at that time that this flight should have ended in disaster, *Captain Al Haynes, with the help of United Captain and DC-10 Flight Instructor Dennis Fitch, quickly improvised a way to keep control of the aircraft by maneuvering the throttles of the remaining wing engines.* To the great amazement of aviation officials, the crew managed to bring the aircraft to a crash landing in Sioux City, Iowa, saving the lifes of most of those on board.



NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Propulsion Controlled Aircraft


> *Propulsion Controlled Aircraft* is a computer-assisted engine control system that enables a pilot to land a plane safely when its normal control surfaces such as elevators, rudders, and ailerons are disabled. If used on commercial aircraft, PCA and follow on projects could help reduce the number of aircraft accidents.


Essentially...If we have engine failures, there is still a good chance of recovery and survival via flight control surfaces, aka 'dead stick' landing as UA 232 demonstrated...

Deadstick landing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> A deadstick landing, also called a dead-stick landing or forced landing, occurs *when an aircraft loses all of its propulsive power* and is forced to land. The term is a misnomer, as the flight controls in the majority of aircraft are either fully or partially functional, even with no engine power. So it is not the "stick" (flight control actuator) that is "dead", but rather the engine(s). The term refers to the wooden propeller (the "stick") being stopped in an engine-out setting. The fixed position prop actually creates less drag and increases glide speed.


But what if the aircraft loses some of its flight control surfaces, that is where PCA enabled flight control laws can help. Thrust vectoring works on similar principles as PCA but it is about the incorporation of *DELIBERATE* off-axis thrust not to recover a damaged aircraft but to radically enhanced its flight regimes. So asymmetric thrust can be exploited to good ends.

The PAK-FA's wide engine placements allows 3D vectoring, however, we do not know the extent of TV automation. Is the pilot allowed individual nozzle vector controls? Now that would remove a lot of mathematical complexity from the flight control laws but would transfer the burden to the pilot. After all, what good in having a feature if you do not know how or allowed to use that feature? Remember UA 232 above where the pilot had to manipulate the throttles himself. This mystery alone begs us to wonder how does Sukhoi view the pilot. Is he a 'killer' first and 'flyer' second? Or would the TV training and operation be so intensive that he would be so busy working the nozzles that he can lose situational awareness and lose the fight?

3D vectoring is best when there is so little aerodynamic forces to exploit that in order to change aircraft attitude, an alternate force is required, this would be at very low airspeed, so low that even if there is any advantage to be gained over the F-22, the F-22 would have to be either battle damaged or at so low an altitude that the F-22 pilot has next to no room to maneuver. The Soviets/Russians do not have a good history of avionics and ergonomics. We knew that even before the Soviet Union collapsed.

Do not be gullible and impressed by that airshow 'cobra' maneuver. It was done with extraordinary airmanship acquired through years of flight experience and natural abilities. That is not how we want our air forces. We want an efficient combination of high flying capabilities and human instincts now. The American philosophy is -- make the aircraft do the flying as much as possible so the pilot can be a 'killer' primary and 'flyer' secondary. When the aircraft exceed maneuvering requirements just through aerodynamic exploitations alone, TV capability is gravy and having 2D only allow some pilot control and some automation without overly complex flight control laws. This is like creating one hundred above average airborne killers in one year instead of ten excellent ones in two years.



> ptldM3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raptors are extinct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> owais.usmani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raptor happens to be vegetarian. Poor thing!!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Raptor is a classification of bird...

Bird of prey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Birds of prey are birds that hunt for food primarily on the wing, using their keen senses, especially vision. They are defined as any bird that hunts other animals. Their talons and beaks tend to be relatively large, powerful and adapted for tearing and/or piercing flesh.


Dead meat for the Raptor, baby...

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## hindustan

WebMaster said:


> Did you read the end?
> 
> 
> 
> The aircraft is set to fly next year. :lips: I believe India is funding it secretly or some what and it will acquire it later on. If successful and true. Pakistan is in deep trouble, and looking at far enough i dont see any chances.  First it was Su-30 now T-50..




yes you are right pakistan is in deep trouble not because of planes but because of attitude

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## gubbi

^^^^@ Gambit.

Very informative post. Excellent explanation even a layman like me can understand.

However I find this T-50 F-22 comparison *at this point* very stupid for the sole reason that while F-22 is already in service, Sukhoi PAK-FA just had its maiden flight and we all do understand that what we have seen today is/will not be the configuration that goes into series production.

We still dont know the design or the real capabilities of the engines which are to power the PAK-FA. That includes the shape of the exhaust nozzles. IIRC there was a Su-27/35 test bed with 2D TVC with nozzles like those of F-22. We dont know whether that would be incorporated into the new engines.

Another point that many missed here is the *placement of the engines on PAK-FA*. If you look closely *the engines are aligned at an angle to the central axis with the nozzles pointing lightly outwards*. Wrt the explanation that you gave regarding wide placement of engines and their effect on flight control, what do you think about this development? Sukhoi engineers probably had a very good reason to design the placement of eninges in that particular manner.

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## Luftwaffe

guppi also to remind other members that PAK-FA is the first prototype vs F-22
to others never jump to the conclusion at this point therefore "PAK-FA is a dead meat for F-22 is invalid and foolish statement wise men should know it" pride aside lil americans focus on current issues we all will see the final version won't we?


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## gogbot

I dont know whats any one has a Problem with PAK-FA.

Sukhoi has all it needs to make an Excellent Plane.
The Goal of the project was to develop and incorporate the only tech Sukhoi has yet to master. *stealth*



What ever the result, it is invisible on radar and Untraceable. Whether it is more or less stealth than the F-22 is not the point. If it cant be traced that is good enough.

Maneuverability.
Sukhoi plane may very well be More maneuverable given Sukhoi pedigree in making Gravity defying planes.






Payload
The PAK-FA has been designed to carry 12+ missiles or munitions.

So in conclusion, The PAK-FA is Stealth aircraft that has a greater payload,and also Sukhois Pedigree in Maneuverability.

Unless you can defeat the stealth of the PAk-FA, I dont see any reason why an aircraft manufacturer that has produced some of the best 4th gen and 4.5 gen aircraft. Incorporating the best in Maneuverability and Avionics cant learn to add a new dimension stealth and achieve the same excellent results.

Raptor meat ?
Raptor still cannot fight what it cannot see, the thing i like most about 5th gen combat is that its all about dogfights, since long range missiles are useless as you cant effectively track these planes at those ranges.

So to all those who want to do F-22 vs PAK-FA its all about dog fighting.


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## deckingraj

gogbot said:


> So to all those who want to do F-22 vs PAK-FA its all about dog fighting.



Thats a very interesting observation....I was told that with technology gone are the days when Dog fights were the norms...Its all BVR's now...and come these 5 generations fighters and we are back to dog fight days...However not sure how much is the technology involved vs the skills of the pilots that will decide the fate of these dogfights...

Anyways can someone shed some light on how these invisible planes talk to their counterparts or ground staff???


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## gubbi

*T-50: A Preliminary Analysis*



> T-50: A Preliminary Analysis
> Posted by Bill Sweetman at 1/29/2010 10:07 AM CST
> Well, this brings back the old days when Flug Revue would pop out some over-the-fence shots obtained from the Military Missions in East Germany, and the assembled reptiles at Flight would adjourn to our secret analysis facility to figure out what it all meant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, for anyone contemplating the use of the word "Raptorski": don't. While this is an airplane that could have been the answer to the Advanced Tactical Fighter requirement, way back when, it's not an F-22 in many important ways.
> 
> In a lot of ways, the T-50 reflects the heritage of the T-10 Flanker series - it's much more like them than Sukhoi's last fighter prototype, the forward-swept-wing Su-47 Berkut, ever was. From the Flanker family, the T-50 gets the *massive "centroplane" - a wide central body that blends the fuselage and inner wing - three-surface aerodynamic control and true three-dimensional thrust vectoring.* The main weapons bay has been seen on a Flanker model, too.
> 
> Look at some of these in detail. *The centroplane is huge, extending well outside the engines and terminating at the rear in a broad beaver-tail between the exhaust nozzles*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It *accommodates a boatload of fuel* on the Flanker and will do the same here. After the canard hokey-pokey in the T-10 family (in on the Su-30MK, out on the Su-35) the *T-50 has something different*: *the forward part of the leading edge extension is movable. According to the usually well informed Flateric over at Secret Projects, it is called the Povorotnaya Chast Naplyva (PChN) or movable LEX section.*
> 
> 3-D thrust vectoring is also used on the Su-35. The T-50 and the T-10 family are distinguished by widely separated engines, which is important because that's the only way to use vectored thrust in roll. *What's new on the T-50 is that the designers have cashed in on TVC by shrinking the tail surfaces, saving on drag, weight and signature.
> *
> With separated engines and a wide body, the T-50 designers have been able to *install dual front and rear weapon bays*. Added to this are *side bays outboard of the engines*. Flateric reports that each bay is designed to hold "at least two" missiles and that the outer bays are designed for short-range AAMs. The centerline bays could each hold two large weapons (like R-33s) or three-to-four of the newly announced RVV-MD. The latter has folding wings, as does the RVV-SD development of the R-73 (AA-11 Archer) family - the latter explaining why the underwing bays are small.
> 
> The big new feature of the T-50 is stealth. *The aircraft that flew today is a prototype - and it does not show visible features like a frameless canopy and panel alignment that you'd expect on a production aircraft.* Other not-very-stealthy-looking features include the gaps around the inlet (compare the YF-23) and a spherical infrared search and track housing in front of the windshield. And, of course, the nozzles are round. But it has a chined forebody, edge alignment and (probably) inlet line-of-sight blockage and internal weapons.
> 
> Apparently the designers and systems analysts have looked at the thorny question of "*how much stealth do we want to pay for*?" and *have come up with a different answer than the F-22 designers*. *The fact that the armed forces of potential adversaries don't have S-300 and S-400 missiles may have something to do with that answer.*
> 
> *Supercruise? Definitely.* The aircraft has a lot of power, and you would not go with that sharply swept delta wing if that wasn't the goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vidcap by Matej from Secret Projects
> 
> The big question is how long the aircraft will take to enter service, which is a product of three factors - how much money is available, how many resources industry can muster to get the job done, and where the design, technically, stands at this point.
> 
> The first question depends largely on the Russian economy, and on the priority which the military gives to the fighter. At the moment, the strategic rocket forces are the priority and are elbowing all others away from the trough; also, the military could decide that the Su-35 is a good upgrade route for now. The X-factor: whether and when India will join the program, and how much cash it will involve.
> 
> The second - industry's ability to execute the program - is hard to estimate. On the downside, Russia has not inducted a brand-new aircraft into service since the 1980s. However, there are signs of a new development strategy at work here: the T-50's engines are outgrowths of the Su-35's and are being test-flown on a T-10 airframe, and the flight control system and (very likely) cockpit and avionics may be similar.
> 
> How far along is the program? Russian practice historically has been to start development with a series of prototypes that successively conform more to the production design. That's followed by an early series of aircraft that are "pre-operational" - flown by service units. Today's T-50 is, in US terms, something between a technology demonstrator and a systems development and demonstration aircraft.
> 
> Upshot - I would expect to see quite a few Su-35S regiments operational before we see a combat-ready T-50 - but with the caveat that a lot of Indian money could change things.

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## PAFAce

Congratulations Russia and Sukhoi! Massive achievement. There is certainly egg on my face, I had presumed this would be a tech demonstrator. It seems like a first ptototype (the Indian members were right),

In my defence, however, what I had assumed was that the PAK-FA FGFA would be a new design, comparable to the F-22. I had expected that Su-27 redesigned for Stealth (which is what this looks like) would be a separate project, like the F-15 Silent Eagle. What disappoints me about this whole thing is that we won't be seeing an F-22 type monster emerging fromt he Russians (unless they have another secret up their sleaves).

Good news for India too. PAK-FA and MCA would be great additions. What is the timeframe expected for induction? The Russians on some other forum are predicting about 5 years for their induction, so I guess roughly 7-8 years for India? Also, how exactly will the FGFA differ, apart from being twin-seater.

I can't wait for more information to come out. Thanks for the videos and pictures.

*Edit*
Oops. Before I get run over by rabid dogs, I must admit. The design _looks_ like a souped up Su-27, it may well be entirely new.



Storm Force said:


> AS FOR THE REST including J10/J17 thats NOW YESTERDAYS NEWS too old too little no USE to anybody in 2017


That's total BS. They will be very relavent well into the next decade. India won't have huge numbers of this by 2020, so it would still heavily rely on the Su-30MKI and the MMRCA. J-10B and JF-17 are definitely relavent to that.

What you meant to say is, the JF-17 and J-10B might go slightly out of favour in Pakistan now, as we look for a fifth Generation solution as well. Live I've said before, Pakistan should not spend a single penny more on 4th Generation acquisition programs. JF-17 and FC-20, then that's it, it's time for Next-Gen.

I do believe the United States Department of Defence will use this as an excuse to ask for the government to reconsider closing the F-22 assembly line. This aircraft will be blown out of proportions, they will make it seem as if this this was the Death Star from the Star Wars. So be cautious, if you find tidbits about how "amazing" the PAK-FA is, take it with a hint of salt.

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## Merilion

oh just saw this news. 
a beautiful bird, i like it. congrates!


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## no_name

gubbi said:


> Another point that many missed here is the *placement of the engines on PAK-FA*. If you look closely *the engines are aligned at an angle to the central axis with the nozzles pointing lightly outwards*. Wrt the explanation that you gave regarding wide placement of engines and their effect on flight control, what do you think about this development? Sukhoi engineers probably had a very good reason to design the placement of eninges in that particular manner.



Reducing radar reflection? If you look at the front end pic the engine inlet also seems to point at an agle outward and not straight forward.


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> guppi also to remind other members that PAK-FA is the first prototype vs F-22
> to others never jump to the conclusion at this point therefore "PAK-FA is a dead meat for F-22 is invalid and foolish statement wise men should know it" pride aside lil americans focus on current issues we all will see the final version won't we?



I always find these x vs y threads unnecessary and stupid.
However, as of today F-22 does rule the skies anywhere. That does not mean that there will be no contenders for the crown and with time IMHO, the PAK-FA will give the F-22 a run for its money. 
SO you are right, statements like the above are indeed unwarranted and juvenile coming from a person with such vast experience.


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## waraich66

Russia launches plane to rival 'US stealth fighter'

Russia's response to the US stealth fighter, a new fifth-generation fighter, has made its first successful flight. 

The "fifth generation" jet is designed to be invisible to radar. Russia's air force hopes to acquire it in 2015.


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## Supersonic26

PAK-FA is breed between F-22 raptor and Berkut Su-47. PAK-FA body 75percent is like F-22 (from shoulder to bottom) and its Cokpit and nose is like Berkut su-47. What it means is PAK-FA can cut air more easily and its more maneuverable then F-22 raptor. Now i want to ask the members who making fun of PAK-FA have u seen Su-30MKI and F-22 raptor side by side? Both doing same moves even both design is different. What sukhoi-30MKI lack was Stealth, after burner, size, nex generation weapons etc etc. Yet sukhoi-30MKI Makes F-22 raptor worried. Now PAK-FA is getting ready. It has Stealth, after burner, speed, it will be more maneuverable then sukhoi-30MKI and will carry all next generation weapons. How about that now? F-22 a fat beast from front while PAK-FA Slim from front and more better design.


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## toxic_pus

Frankly speaking, from the looks of PAK-FA, it appears that Su-27 had some real rough unprotected sex with YF-23.

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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> PAK FA has nothing to do with CHINA..
> 
> NEXT THING will here ACM tanvir is in moscow negoiating free sales of PAK FA for PAF



 Feel sorry for your state of mind. 

Anyway, get your memory updated, ACM Tanvir went on retirement *nearly 1 year ago*, so get over it whatever you have in your mind.


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## Tiger Awan

After all the discussion I still want to know one thing.
I could not get any idea from pics so 

How many missiles can this plane carry internally????

or all 12 missiles will be carried externally adding to the marvelous stealth features of the fighter?


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## ptldM3

gambit said:


> The PAK-FA's wide engine placements allows 3D vectoring, however, we do not know the extent of TV automation. *Is the pilot allowed individual nozzle vector controls*? Now that would remove a lot of mathematical complexity from the flight control laws but would transfer the burden to the pilot. After all, what good in having a feature if you do not know how or allowed to use that feature? Remember UA 232 above where the pilot had to manipulate the throttles himself. This mystery alone begs us to wonder how does Sukhoi view the pilot. Is he a 'killer' first and 'flyer' second? Or would the TV training and operation be so intensive that he would be so busy working the nozzles that he can lose situational awareness and lose the fight?
> 
> .



Interesting read.

The following link says the SU-47 pilot may operate the TVC manually or automatically. The TVC may also be turned on or off. However, i dont think the SU-47 had TVC. My guess is that the SU-30 has this capability, thus the SU-47 would have it to.




> TVC thrust vectoring control can operates by manual and automatic modes.



SUKHOI Su-47

I can relate to losing an engine, the aircraft banks hard, luckely it was a training flight, and my brother was the pilot at the controls  with todays computers an engine flare-out is much safer. Moreover, the pilot can ease off the throttle and use the vertical stabablizer to counter-balance to pull.

I really hope the Pakfa gets two boxy exhause nozzles, but with the exception they be 3D TVC. Something similar to this picture, but with the option to pivot in a 360 dagree motion.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_No-LbRWJMSI/SJdakYWwiNI/AAAAAAAAAJY/hmMiLQBySxU/s320/su27ps-1.jpg

I know we are all thowing up pakfa but here is another video, the first minute or two is the best, and i'm sure many have probably seen it but i don't care, notice that at the 24-25 second mark the pakfa moves it vertical stabalizers, but instead of having a ruder, the whole thing moves....it's neat  Also checkout the cockpit at the 2:57 second mark, it's the SU-35BM cockpit but rumor has it the pakfa will have the same one or very similar.


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## toxic_pus

Meanwhile, the first reactions are coming in. A must read for the armchair analysts here.
----------------------------------------------
T-50: A Preliminary Analysis

- Bill Sweetman

Well, this brings back the old days when Flug Revue would pop out some over-the-fence shots obtained from the Military Missions in East Germany, and the assembled reptiles at Flight would adjourn to our secret analysis facility to figure out what it all meant. 

First of all, for anyone contemplating the use of the word "Raptorski": don't. While this is an airplane that could have been the answer to the Advanced Tactical Fighter requirement, way back when, it's not an F-22 in many important ways.

In a lot of ways, the T-50 reflects the heritage of the T-10 Flanker series - it's much more like them than Sukhoi's last fighter prototype, the forward-swept-wing Su-47 Berkut, ever was. From the Flanker family, the T-50 gets the massive "centroplane" - a wide central body that blends the fuselage and inner wing - three-surface aerodynamic control and true three-dimensional thrust vectoring. The main weapons bay has been seen on a Flanker model, too.

Look at some of these in detail. *The centroplane is huge, extending well outside the engines and terminating at the rear in a broad beaver-tail between the exhaust nozzles*.

*It accommodates a boatload of fuel on the Flanker and will do the same here.* After the canard hokey-pokey in the T-10 family (in on the Su-30MK, out on the Su-35) *the T-50 has something different: the forward part of the leading edge extension is movable.* According to the usually well informed Flateric over at Secret Projects, it is called the Povorotnaya Chast Naplyva (PChN) or movable LEX section.

3-D thrust vectoring is also used on the Su-35. The T-50 and the T-10 family are distinguished by widely separated engines, which is important because that's the only way to use vectored thrust in roll. *What's new on the T-50 is that the designers have cashed in on TVC by shrinking the tail surfaces, saving on drag, weight and signature.*

*With separated engines and a wide body, the T-50 designers have been able to install dual front and rear weapon bays. Added to this are side bays outboard of the engines. Flateric reports that each bay is designed to hold "at least two" missiles and that the outer bays are designed for short-range AAMs. The centerline bays could each hold two large weapons (like R-33s) or three-to-four of the newly announced RVV-MD. The latter has folding wings, as does the RVV-SD development of the R-73 (AA-11 Archer) family - the latter explaining why the underwing bays are small. *

The big new feature of the T-50 is stealth. *The aircraft that flew today is a prototype - and it does not show visible features like a frameless canopy and panel alignment that you'd expect on a production aircraft. Other not-very-stealthy-looking features include the gaps around the inlet (compare the YF-23) and a spherical infrared search and track housing in front of the windshield. And, of course, the nozzles are round. But it has a chined forebody, edge alignment and (probably) inlet line-of-sight blockage and internal weapons.*

*Apparently the designers and systems analysts have looked at the thorny question of "how much stealth do we want to pay for?" and have come up with a different answer than the F-22 designers. The fact that the armed forces of potential adversaries don't have S-300 and S-400 missiles may have something to do with that answer.*

*Supercruise? Definitely. The aircraft has a lot of power, and you would not go with that sharply swept delta wing if that wasn't the goal. *

The big question is how long the aircraft will take to enter service, which is a product of three factors - how much money is available, how many resources industry can muster to get the job done, and where the design, technically, stands at this point.

The first question depends largely on the Russian economy, and on the priority which the military gives to the fighter. At the moment, the strategic rocket forces are the priority and are elbowing all others away from the trough; also, the military could decide that the Su-35 is a good upgrade route for now. The X-factor: whether and when India will join the program, and how much cash it will involve.

The second - industry's ability to execute the program - is hard to estimate. On the downside, Russia has not inducted a brand-new aircraft into service since the 1980s. However, there are signs of a new development strategy at work here: the T-50's engines are outgrowths of the Su-35's and are being test-flown on a T-10 airframe, and the flight control system and (very likely) cockpit and avionics may be similar.

How far along is the program? Russian practice historically has been to start development with a series of prototypes that successively conform more to the production design. That's followed by an early series of aircraft that are "pre-operational" - flown by service units. Today's T-50 is, in US terms, something between a technology demonstrator and a systems development and demonstration aircraft.

*Upshot - I would expect to see quite a few Su-35S regiments operational before we see a combat-ready T-50 - but with the caveat that a lot of Indian money could change things.*

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## azfar

any pics of internal weapon bays


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## baba firangi

Growler said:


> And just like IAF PAF too have found a solution for their 5th generation fighter requirement which is Chinese stealth Fighter. Again you being a pathological delusional you are most welcome to believe Chinese technology is cr@p just for the sake of satisfying your loser indian ego.



Wow... Wat a conclusion.. 

Russians with 5 decades worth of aeronautical and aerospace experience build a 5th gen aircraft that is *NOT-SO-STEALTHY*, and the *BROTHER CHINESE* with only an J-10 (that can be called an original idea) under their belt are going to make a 5th gen aircraft that will be real stealthy and in one word, just *K*** A***.. And to think of it, while PAK-FA is at least in prototype, whereas nothing is known about J-XX(Heck, even its proto name is not known, wether it will be J-12, J-13, or J-14)


Yeah yeah.. Because Chinese technology is *40x times better than Russian technology and 400x better than Indian technology*, and maybe in a few years they will surpass Americans too.. And then the, *they also are into espionage*, that takes the cake.. As if The Chinese are the only country that are into technology Espionage...

While its so conveniently pointed out abou PAK-FA that,it took 17 years for the F-22 to get IOC after YF-22 was out, and thus PAK-FA will only be inducted by 2027, dunno how the Chinese J-XX, prototype, of which nothing known about yet, will be inducted in time to answer FGFA..

And to ALL here...

PAK-FA is not just a Fifth gen fighter, its not even an Indian fighter for all its worth.. Its a tamplete, on which we Indians will build upon NGFA, our ticket into the 5th generation club.. Fight now how long that is gonna take, 10 years, 20 years or 50 years, for all i care..

Again i would say.. Logic...

Sorry for being a lil off topic here..

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## Thomas

Growler said:


> Again you being a pathological delusional you are most welcome to believe Chinese technology is cr@p just for the sake of satisfying your loser indian ego.



The Chinese are mainly copiers not innovators. their tech will generally be as good as what they copy it from.


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## albwd

Thomas said:


> The Chinese are mainly copiers not innovators. their tech will generally be as good as what they copy it from.



You try to sneak your statement into official Bible, and it may, well just may, sound more "authoratative".

And voila, guess what, J10 is a serious Chinese effort, trust me.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

ptldM3 said:


> knock.....knock.....fail!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real Pakfa engines are still in development, what you see in the picture is 117 engines, and for the millionth time it's a prototype! Changes will be made.



What difference does that make? A TVC engine by no mean a low emitting IR signature. T-50 maybe hard to detect in advance radars but it will be defiantly be spotted in IRST system. 

And Indian fanboys stop throwing bullcr@p that this is only a prototype and changes will be made. Yes other then of curse avionics package armaments radar etc no significant structural changes will be made over night to make it par with F-35 or superior. 

Stop freaking comparing F-22 a 60 BILLION DOLLARS development project with 6X less budget of PAK-FA. 
Take a look at F-35A B C development. Final aircraft is as it is as the prototype!


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## Myth_buster_1

Thomas said:


> The Chinese are mainly copiers not innovators. their tech will generally be as good as what they copy it from.



And thats what you think.


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## LCA Tejas

Growler said:


> What difference does that make? A TVC engine by no mean a low emitting IR signature. T-50 maybe hard to detect in advance radars but it will be defiantly be spotted in IRST system.
> 
> And Indian fanboys stop throwing bullcr@p that this is only a prototype and changes will be made. Yes other then of curse avionics package armaments radar etc no significant structural changes will be made over night to make it par with F-35 or superior.
> 
> Stop freaking comparing F-22 a 60 BILLION DOLLARS development project with 6X less budget of PAK-FA.
> Take a look at F-35A B C development. Final aircraft is as it is as the prototype!



Cool down buddy.... No need to Panic..... There is always an alternative, U can Counter It with J-XX nothing to worry about.... Relax,Wait and Watch...


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## Myth_buster_1

jha said:


> imo engine nozzles will be taken care of when the engine intended for it are incorporated into it...and anyways thinking that russians will give big IR signature of their masterpiece for the sake of redesigning the nozzles is absurd...



Fanboy do you have a link to back up your claim? or are you just gonna make face saving absurd remarks?


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## Myth_buster_1

LCA Tejas said:


> Cool down buddy.... No need to Panic..... There is always an alternative, U can Counter It with J-XX nothing to worry about.... Relax,Wait and Watch...



hey... why counter PAkfA with superior J-XX? PAF is working on next generation JF-17II with stealth technology and that will be enough to counter IAF 5th generation fighters.. JXX is a over kill..
I bet that will p1ss you off!


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## DaRk WaVe

engine is not yet finalized....
we are yet to hear about fully operational AL-41

Its well 10 years away from induction in IAF


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## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> PAK FA has nothing to do with CHINA..
> 
> NEXT THING will here ACM tanvir is in moscow negoiating free sales of PAK FA for PAF



ACM Tanvir is retired so nice try loser.


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## LCA Tejas

Growler said:


> hey... why counter PAkfA with superior J-XX? PAF is working on next generation JF-17II with stealth technology and that will be enough to counter IAF 5th generation fighters.. JXX is a over kill..
> I bet that will p1ss you off!



 Unbelievable , JXX a Project where pakistan has No hands, By first have no rights to claim it, and Next Comparing JF-17 stealth with FGFA? 
Now Let me be frank,That JF-17 of yours can not even match the current Sukhoi30 MKI even after its stealth... And JXX can hardly match Suk30MKI stealth..... FGFA is Is beyond ur Imagination buddy, forget it.... U can counter it with JXX , thats the most u Can afford and Achieve... Good Luck...


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> What difference does that make? A TVC engine by no mean a low emitting IR signature. T-50 maybe hard to detect in advance radars but it will be defiantly be spotted in IRST system.



Every plane gives of an IR signature, even the raptor. Having the engine two feet back isn't going to make a big difference.



Growler said:


> And Indian fanboys stop throwing bullcr@p that this is only a prototype and changes will be made. Yes other then of curse avionics package armaments radar etc *no significant structural changes will be made *over night to make it par with F-35 or superior.





Look at the original SU-27:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aYAUsn-hXgc/Sl0xUO2cuZI/AAAAAAAAAF4/cWVyPGUDvWs/s320/su27_T10-1.jpg while your at it look at the YF-22 and the F-22.


Even Putin has said the aircraft still has a ways to go. And for the millionth time Sukhoi has stated the aircraft is vertually invisible, so get the notion of it's not stealthy out of your head.

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## DaRk WaVe

LCA Tejas said:


> Unbelievable , JXX a Project where pakistan has No hands, By first have no rights to claim it, and Next Comparing JF-17 stealth with FGFA?
> Now Let me be frank,That JF-17 of yours can not even match the current Sukhoi30 MKI even after its stealth... *And JXX can hardly match Suk30MKI stealth.*.... FGFA is Is beyond ur Imagination buddy, forget it.... U can counter it with JXX , thats the most u Can afford and Achieve... Good Luck...



some how there are people who are unable to grasp Basic Scracism but go bonkers 

MKI is a beast, no doubt about it but it has got an RCS of a tanker 

now you can some up with the 'smart skin' stuff


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> engine is not yet finalized....
> we are yet to hear about fully operational AL-41
> 
> Its well 10 years away from induction in IAF



Engine final and tested, though on su 27 as a testbed.
Besides, IAF will also induct pak-fa and not just fgfa, so induction will be with 7-8 years


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## LCA Tejas

EmO GiRl said:


> some how there are people who are unable to grasp Basic Scracism but go bonkers
> 
> MKI is a beast, no doubt about it but it has got an RCS of a tanker
> 
> now you can some up with the 'smart skin' stuff



Thats Why I mentioned Suk30MKI stealth....


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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> Engine final and tested, though on su 27 as a testbed.
> Besides, IAF will also induct pak-fa and not just fgfa, so induction will be with 7-8 years



lol if that the Final engine then good luck



just look at the engine on F-35 & PAK-FA, *i highly doubt if its going to be final one* & one more thing you people are forgetting about AVIONICS & AAMs, there is nothing mentioned about HMD & newer AAMs have not been tested




> Thats Why I mentioned Suk30MKI stealth....



see how predictable you people are, there is absolutely zero official statement regarding 'smart skin'


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> lol if that the Final engine then good luck
> 
> just look at the engine on F-35 & PAK-FA i highly doubt if its going to be final one & one more thing you people are forgetting about AVIONICS & AAMs, there is nothing mentioned about HMS & newer AAMs have not been tested



Engine was tested on Su-27 and not pakfa itself. It was tested on 21 jan.
Moscow News - News - New Russian jet fighter to threaten Raptor?
*The T-50's maiden flight was planned in 2008, but was later postponed to 2009. In December 2009 Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov announced that the maiden flight would take place in January 2010. The 5th generation engine for the new jet was tested by the flying laboratory SU 27M on January 21st in Zhukovsky near Moscow. The press release on NPO Saturn, the engine manufacturer's, website says that the flight lasted for 45 minutes and was successful. There was no criticism of the engine's operation.*

About avionics, ew suite etc, I dont know.

*Can somebody tell whether it will have completely Russian avionics or a potpourri like mki?*


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## marcos98

WORTH A READ......

Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA made a successful 47-minute maiden flight on Friday 29 January 2010, taking off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur Airfield in Russias Far East, adjacent to the manufacturers site.

The aircraft was flown by Sukhoi test-pilot Sergey Bogdan. Sukhoi, the aircraft designer is expecting to complete flight testing and enter serial manufacturing by 2015, anticipating orders for at least 400 aircraft for the Russian and Indian Air Forces.
The flight went successfully meeting all its assigned tasks. In the course of the flight weve conducted initial evaluation of the aircraft controllability, engine performance and primary systems operation. The aircraft had retracted and extracted the landing gear. The aircraft performed excellent at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot, - said Sergey Bogdan.

After the initial test flights in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the next test flight program is planned to take place in the Moscow and Astrakhan regions.
The new fifth generation stealth fighter, known by Project Code Name T-50 PAK-FA (Advanced Tactical Frontline Fighter) is designed to compete with the US stealth fighters such as the Lockheed Martin built F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. India had joined the program in October 2007 and is expected to share 25% of the development cost. India will also be responsible for modifying the aircraft into a two-seater trainer and special-mission fighter, addressing specific Indian Air Force requirements.

*The T-50 is expected to have an endurance of 3.3 hours, and a ferry range of 5,500 km. Its armament consists of new air-to-air and anti-ship missiles in addition to two 30mm cannons.*
*According to the manufacturer, PAK-FA possesses a number of unique features, compared to previous generation fighters, as it is combining the functionality of both attack aircraft and fighter plane. The 5th generation fighter is equipped with brand-new avionics suite, integrating electronic pilot functionality, as well as an advanced phased-array antenna radar*. This significantly decreases pilot load, allowing him to focus upon the completion of tactical missions. New aircraft on-board equipment allows real-time data exchange, not only with ground-based control systems, but also within his flight team.
Composites application and innovative technologies and aerodynamics of the aircraft, are measures applied to decrease the engine signature, providing for an unprecedented small radar cross-section, in optical and infrared range. This significantly improves combat effectiveness against air and ground targets at any time of the day, in both visible and instrument meteorological conditions.

PAK-FA program advances Russian aeronautics, together with allied industries, reaching an entirely new technological level. These aircraft, together with upgraded 4th generation fighters will define Russian Air Force potential for the next decades. "Sukhoi plans to further elaborate on the PAK-FA program, which will involve our Indian partners. I am strongly convinced that our joint project will excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening the defensive power of Russian and Indian Air Forces, but also gain access to a significant share of the world market, - said Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi Company Director General commenting on the launch of the flight test program.


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## LCA Tejas

EmO GiRl said:


> see how predictable you people are, there is absolutely zero official statement regarding 'smart skin'



Comon You are going crazy, Su-30 MKI will undergo mid-life upgrade starting 2014 and India is wanting most of the 5th gen features in It... And that Includes smart Skin....


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## DaRk WaVe

LCA Tejas said:


> Comon You are going crazy, Su-30 MKI will undergo mid-life upgrade starting 2014 and India is wanting most of the 5th gen features in It... And that Includes smart Skin....



I am not saying that it MKI won't undergo MLU, i am objecting the introduction of 'smart skin', If you have any thing 'authentic' about 'smart skin' then please post it, 

PS:don't post that photo shopped su-27


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## marcos98

NIIP AESA radar for PAKFA:


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## marcos98

First 5th generation multiaxis nozzle for PAKFA:

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## LCA Tejas

EmO GiRl said:


> I am not saying that it MKI won't undergo MLU, i am objecting the introduction of 'smart skin', If you have any thing 'authentic' about 'smart skin' then please post it,
> 
> PS:don't post that photo shopped su-27



Both UAC and Tikhomirov-NIIP have come together to develop the smart skin concept under which an AESA arrays transmit/receive modules can be placed anywhere on board the Su-30MKI to generate the relevant radiation field required for achieving more than 180-degree field-of-view.


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## baba firangi

Growler said:


> hey... why counter PAkfA with superior J-XX? PAF is working on next generation JF-17II with stealth technology and that will be enough to counter IAF 5th generation fighters.. JXX is a over kill..
> I bet that will p1ss you off!



Yeah-yeah.. I guess to kill a PAK-FA in air, even a JF-17 would be an overkill..

I am sure your *MAN-BEHIND-THE-MACHINE* SUPER-PILOTS can do that using your *SUPER-MUSHAQ* itself..

And please dont mention your (your's?, ohh *BROTHER CHINA'S*) J-XX on each and every of your post related to PAK-FA/FGFA.. It gets us Indians on the forum scared... Very scared indeed...

Now chill bro.. Eat maggi 2 minutes noodles, 2 minute me taiyaar...

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## marcos98

EmO GiRl said:


> I am not saying that it MKI won't undergo MLU, i am objecting the introduction of 'smart skin', If you have any thing 'authentic' about 'smart skin' then please post it,
> 
> PS:don't post that photo shopped su-27


THIS S BEST ICOULD GET......
Developing the Smart Skin concept for Su-30MKI

The pre-planned product improvement roadmap for the Su-30MKI continues to make steady progress, with two Indian Air Force (IAF) Su-30MKIs, delivered in mid-2002, being dispatched to United Aircraft Corp (UAC) of Russias Irkutsk-based facility (IRKUT Corp) where both airframes will be strengthened and refurbished, and their navigation-and-attack system will be upgraded in order to arm the aircraft with the BrahMos supersonic air-launched cruise missile for both maritime strike and ground attack. Thus, while all structural and electrical work will be undertaken at Irkutsk, the Tikhomirov-NIIP will upgrade the Su-30MKIs existing NO-11M Bars passive phased-array radars performance and operating modes by incorporating a radar target extraction LRU. Once all this has been done, the two upgraded Su-30MKIs will be flown back to India to begin the weapons qualification test-firings, which will be jointly conducted by BrahMos Aerospace and the IAF.

And come 2014, UAC, together with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will begin upgrading the first 100 IAF Su-30MKIs by modifying their airframes to make them stealthy, converting the existing Bars into an active phased-array radar, enhancing the situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned transmit/receive arrays on the aircrafts wings, and beefing up the defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system and a missile approach warning system. Tikhomirov-NIIP had by last November begun laboratory-level tests of a Bars, which was fitted with an AESA array made up of X-band transmit/receive modules built by Istok JSC. Since then, another two Bars radars have been modified as part of the R&D phase, which will last until 2012, and will be followed by flight qualification a year later. Incidentally, Tikhomirov-NIIP has also developed the Irbis-E passive phased-array radar for the Su-35BM and will soon begin work on modifying the Irbis-E into an active phased-array radar, which will go on board the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be co-developed by UAC and HAL. In addition, both UAC and Tikhomirov-NIIP have come together to develop the smart skin concept under which an AESA arrays transmit/receive modules can be placed anywhere on board the Su-30MKI to generate the relevant radiation field required for achieving more than 180-degree field-of-view.
FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine


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## DaRk WaVe

LCA Tejas said:


> Both UAC and Tikhomirov-NIIP have come together to develop the &#8216;smart skin&#8217; concept under which an AESA array&#8217;s transmit/receive modules can be placed anywhere on board the Su-30MKI to generate the relevant radiation field required for achieving more than 180-degree field-of-view.



i asked you to bring me links for this 'smart skin' 

AESA is no way related to smart skin & more than field of view

please, thanks


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> i asked you to bring me links for this 'smart skin'
> 
> AESA is no way related to smart skin & more than field of view
> 
> please, thanks





> And come 2014, UAC, together with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will begin upgrading the first 100 IAF Su-30MKIs by *modifying their airframes to make them stealthy,* converting the existing Bars into an active phased-array radar, enhancing the situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned transmit/receive arrays on the aircrafts wings, and beefing up the defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system and a missile approach warning system.



May be not smart skin, but modification in airframes do reduce rcs


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## DaRk WaVe

> saurabh said:
> 
> 
> 
> May be not smart skin, but modification in airframes do reduce rcs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And come 2014, UAC, together with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will begin upgrading the first 100 IAF Su-30MKIs by modifying their airframes to make them stealthy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



so according to you modification in air frame will make it more stealthier than a 5th Gen J-XX, yeah



LCA Tejas said:


> Unbelievable , JXX a Project where pakistan has No hands, By first have no rights to claim it, and Next Comparing JF-17 stealth with FGFA?
> Now Let me be frank,That JF-17 of yours can not even match the current Sukhoi30 MKI even after its stealth... *And JXX can hardly match Suk30MKI stealth.*.... FGFA is Is beyond ur Imagination buddy, forget it.... U can counter it with JXX , thats the most u Can afford and Achieve... Good Luck...


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## marcos98

EmO GiRl said:


> so according to you modification in air frame will make it more stealthier than a 5th Gen J-XX, yeah



SU-30MKI cant be fully stealh aircraft , whatever structural changes it undegoes coz it wasn't built to be one........
but surely its huge RCS can be reduced and thats something......


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> so according to you modification in air frame will make it more stealthier than a 5th Gen J-XX, yeah



Nope, I didn't say that. I am just saying that it will have a reduced rcs. And that means a lot. We will have a fleet of 230 mkis which are already formidable, with reduced rcs and a better, improved radar. 
On a side note, I am a big fan of working of Chinese. But do you really believe they will surpass the Russians so soon?


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## notorious_eagle

I think we need an expert opinion of Sir Gambit in this thread, not a bunch of fanboys who are claiming this plane to be superior to F22/F35 and SU30MKI to be a stealth aircraft.


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## ptldM3

notorious_eagle said:


> I think we need an expert opinion of Sir Gambit in this thread, not a bunch of fanboys who are claiming this plane to be superior to F22/F35 and SU30MKI to be a stealth aircraft.



no one knows the capabilities of either aircraft, so know one can give an expert opinion.

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## baba firangi

notorious_eagle said:


> I think we need an expert opinion of Sir Gambit in this thread, not a bunch of fanboys who are claiming this plane to be superior to F22/F35 and SU30MKI to be a stealth aircraft.



No Indian here is claiming that T-50 is superior to F-22 raptors, or F-35.. Wat everybody here is speculating here is how good PAK-FA would be once it rolls out of the assembly lines.. But then there is a difference between Claiming and Speculation.. And all we are claiming is that PAK-FA deserves not to be UNDERESTIMATED..

Moreover nowhere has anyone here claimed that Sukhoi 30 MKI is stealth as in S-T-E-A-L-T-H.. All my comrades here are claiming that only its ability to hide from radar can be improved.. Read it as lower RCS.. And that itself is a very complicated process.. Not that it can be converted into a STEALTH Fighter by applying a layer of paint and letting it dry overnight.. And all that feature will be available in the next upgrade..


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## fallstuff

Here are some YouTube Links:


















A little longer video


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## Tiger Awan

I do not degrade Russian technology but still I can see black smoke coming out of the prototype in second video at 0:58. Almost all the Russian engines have this problem. Including one use to power JF-17.

I can not expect an engine from the Russians that is instrumental in developing stealth for the aircraft in 2, 3 years and after the engine is developed its successful integration in the aircraft and necessary airframe modifications and this and that !!!!!!!!!!!!

T-50 is still far away


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## saurabh

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77816&d=1247020786

Can somebody tell what plane is this, and is it related to PAKFA somehow?


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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77816&d=1247020786
> 
> Can somebody tell what plane is this, and is it related to PAKFA somehow?



Photo shopping


----------



## ptldM3

Tiger Awan said:


> I do not degrade Russian technology but still I can see black smoke coming out of the prototype in second video at 0:58. Almost all the Russian engines have this problem. Including one use to power JF-17.
> 
> 
> T-50 is still far away



F-18 Super Bug at 2:32






All of the new Russian engines are smokless, sometimes they will smoke (very slightly almost un-noticeable) when you take a hard turn, just like what you see in the video.


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> Photo shopping



May be, but its belly somewhat looks like that of pak fa. I dont mean to say its mki, that part is photoshoped. But was it some sukhoi acting as a test bed for PAKFA?


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## Tiger Awan

ptldM3 said:


> All of the new Russian engines are smokless, *sometimes they will smoke (very slightly almost un-noticeable)* when you take a hard turn, just like what you see in the video.



Thats why i do not degrade Russian technology.

My dear if engine smokes it is going to be noticed.

Just see the exhaust of the plane from 0:55-0:58. No sharp turns no extreme maneuverability display and not a single missile being loaded. Still it smokes. What will happen when it will be carrying 10-12 missiles and taking a sharp turn. Even your new engine may smoke.

I just want to say that an engine best suited for 5th generation aircraft is not present in Russian inventory.

And F-18 is not a 5th generation aircraft, do not compare with it.

F-22 and F-35 do not have this problem.


----------



## Lankan Ranger

*Russia Tests 5th Generation Fighter Jet - NEW VIDEO*

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## Canaan

will they export the jet?


----------



## Cheetah786

MOSCOW  Russia on Friday unveiled a new fighter aircraft touted as a rival of the US F-22 stealth jet and developed amid the highest secrecy as part of a plan to modernize the armed forces.

The fifth generation fighter, manufactured by the Sukhoi company and known as the PAK FA, made a maiden flight of just over 45 minutes at the firm's home base of Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Far East region.

"The flight lasted 47 minutes during which all the aircraft's systems were tested. It was successful," Sukhoi spokeswoman Olga Kayukova told AFP. "This is the first time it has been unveiled."

Pictures broadcast on state television showed the fighter jet -- which has been kept closely under wraps for years -- flying at altitude and then landing on a snow-surrounded runway.

"The aircraft performed well in all stages of the flight programme. It is easy and comfortable to pilot," said Sergei Bogdan, the pilot for the flight, in comments published on the Sukhoi website.

The new jet has the capability of carrying out long flights above the speed of sound as well as simultaneously attacking different targets.

Russia is currently embarking on a major programme to re-equip its military, not least the air force which is still using largely Soviet-era equipment and suffers from frequent crashes.

The new fighter, which has been in development since the 1990s, is due to enter the armed forces in 2015, Russian news agencies said.

The first flight of the PAK FA (Prospective Aviation System of Frontline Aviation) is being seen in Russia as a major boost for the military after the project was hit by repeated delays over the last years.

"There is no doubt that the plane is needed," the ex-commander of the Russian air force, Anatoly Kornukov, told the Interfax news agency.

"Our Su-27 and MiG-29 planes are good but have aged. They are 20 or more years old and it's time to have something as a replacement," he said.

He said the new plane could easily stand comparison with the US F-22, also a fifth generation stealth fighter.

"It's going to be no worse than an F-22. I've been in an F-22 and I know."

Russia's campaign to modernize its military has been marred by repeated setbacks with new equipment, above all a string of failed tests of its new Bulava sea-based intercontinental nuclear-capable missile.

http://img177.imageshack.us/i/aleqm5jkirtwmrubmfw5rco.jpg/


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## Goodperson

Canaan said:


> will they export the jet?



Yes its customized version will be exported to India, India cooperated in development of the jet as per the Video.


----------



## Super Falcon

ugly looking fighter jet

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## mjnaushad

Super Falcon said:


> ugly looking fighter jet


tum ney nikkah parahna hai

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## Supersonic26

EmO GiRl said:


> so according to you modification in air frame will make it more stealthier than a 5th Gen J-XX, yeah



Emo ji you are too much into J-XX. Kahaan hai aapka J-XX? its no where in sky. Engine tou pheley ounhey bana leyney di jiye emo ji. Does JF-17 has china made engine? Or pakistan indirectly depended on russia? China far behind in engine technology. They can build engine but not powerful enough. Let alone a jet engine for 5 gen jet fighter. J-xx might use chinese engine but that engine wont be anywhere near to PAK-FA engine. Only russia can provide china best engine. J-XX is just outside 5th generation emo ji. China has alot catch up to do. T-50 aka PAK-FA being build by russia since 1990s. They didn't have money to bring it out but now india helping them. PAK-FA's first flight was impressive. Abhi 5 to 7 years baad dekhna ye PAK-FA kya karta hai. Russia and india aint fool to invest in project that aint worth. India and russia knew This beauty beast PAK-FA capablities. Ye F-22 raptor beet gayi baath hai. PAK-FA ka jamana aa raha hai emo ji. J-xx just a beauty outside. Under wo khaali hai.


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## satishkumarcsc

Tiger Awan said:


> Thats why i do not degrade Russian technology.
> 
> My dear if engine smokes it is going to be noticed.
> 
> I just want to say that an engine best suited for 5th generation aircraft is not present in Russian inventory.
> 
> And F-18 is not a 5th generation aircraft.
> 
> F-22 and F-35 do not have this problem.



Yes you are right. The Russians still dont have the AL 41 yet. That is why the PAK FA is flying on the AL 31F 117s. The AL41 is still under reliability tests.


----------



## Supersonic26

Tiger Awan said:


> Thats why i do not degrade Russian technology.
> 
> My dear if engine smokes it is going to be noticed.
> 
> I just want to say that an engine best suited for 5th generation aircraft is not present in Russian inventory.
> 
> And F-18 is not a 5th generation aircraft.
> 
> F-22 and F-35 do not have this problem.



Hello buddy who told you pak-fa engine smoking? Prove me. Next thing i want to say is have u ever tried to talk in snowy winter? Even your mouth warm breath will look like as if its alot hot. It will show smoke from ur mouth. Pak-fa been tested in snowy weather. Check surrownding of Pak-fa. Its most snowy winter buddy.


----------



## notorious_eagle

ptldM3 said:


> no one knows the capabilities of either aircraft, so know one can give an expert opinion.



True but professionals like Gambit, MuradK and X Man are in a better position to judge this aircraft by looking at the pictures than people like us. Gambit has already explained the weakness of the engine nozzle on this plane on another thread, hopefully he can elaborate more by looking at this aircrafts design.


----------



## Turn the page

Hmmmm the Beast got rescued.
awsome!!!!!!!!


----------



## Super Falcon

ugly looking fighter jet but very low weight it seems


----------



## Tiger Awan

Supersonic26 said:


> Hello buddy who told you pak-fa engine smoking? Prove me. Next thing i want to say is have u ever tried to talk in snowy winter? Even your mouth warm breath will look like as if its alot hot. It will show smoke from ur mouth. Pak-fa been tested in snowy weather. Check surrownding of Pak-fa. Its most snowy winter buddy.



I am talking in reference to the 2nd video posted by fullstaff.

How many times I will request you to see the exhaust from *0:55 to 0:58*??????

And does your mouth gives black smoke in winter?


----------



## satishkumarcsc

notorious_eagle said:


> True but professionals like Gambit, MuradK and X Man are in a better position to judge this aircraft by looking at the pictures than people like us. Gambit has already explained the weakness of the engine nozzle on this plane on another thread, hopefully he can elaborate more by looking at this aircrafts design.



Well TBH you cant say anything yet about this fighter...its just the first prototype. If you wanna see how Russian aircrafts change from prototype to production variants just check out the development of the T 10 to the SU 27. One cant say jack about the aircraft until it is out in the open. There are a lot of things which you need before giving an analysis of the aircraft. Yes the Engine nozzles are huge I agree but more design changes will be made. The aircraft looks more like a cross between the YF 22 and YF 23 to me. So I would rather wait for all the flight charecteristics to be known before making comments.


----------



## Owais

It will be good if Sukhoi unveil the general characterstics of new bird. looks bulkier than Raptor


----------



## Tiger Awan

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yes you are right. The Russians still dont have the AL 41 yet. That is why the PAK FA is flying on the AL 31F 117s. The AL41 is still under reliability tests.



And when are where are these tests conducted?

any reference.


----------



## Canaan

Goodperson said:


> Yes its customized version will be exported to India, India cooperated in development of the jet as per the Video.



Yeah I know, but will they export the jet to other countries?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

marcos98 said:


> First 5th generation multiaxis nozzle for PAKFA:
> YouTube - First 5th generation multiaxis nozzle



Thanks for the video.

now look people.. exactly what i am trying to tell. TVC engine by no means stealthy and my point being that the with 2 huge engines vectoring up and down will emit huge IR signature and without even use of a radar IRST system will spot the plane BVR. Check out the nozzel of the engine which looks nothing different then a conventional non stealth engine nozzle. Their are tons of documentaries about stealthy engine nozzles like the one on F-22 and F-35.


----------



## Dark Angel

Tiger Awan said:


> And when are where are these tests conducted?
> 
> any reference.




*Everyone knows AL 41 is being developed for Pakfa*


----------



## saurabh

Tiger Awan said:


> And when are where are these tests conducted?
> 
> any reference.



Go to engine manufacturer Saturn's site
Google Translate


----------



## Myth_buster_1

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well TBH you cant say anything yet about this fighter...its just the first prototype. If you wanna see how Russian aircrafts change from prototype to production variants just check out the development of the T 10 to the SU 27. One cant say jack about the aircraft until it is out in the open. There are a lot of things which you need before giving an analysis of the aircraft. Yes the Engine nozzles are huge I agree but more design changes will be made. The aircraft looks more like a cross between the YF 22 and YF 23 to me. So I would rather wait for all the flight charecteristics to be known before making comments.



Oh god not this bullcr2p again! either indians have habit of not reading or they are just too deluded. 
If indians are expecting huge structural changes on this prototype like that of YF-22 and F-22 then expect another 17 years until a final variant is in service with IAF. YF-22 flew in 91 F-22 in 97 and after 10 years did the F-22 cleared FOC in USAF. DO indian seriously expect a significant structural change like YF-22 F-22?


----------



## garibnawaz

Tiger Awan said:


> And when are where are these tests conducted?
> 
> any reference.



The Al-41F program was launched in 1985, and the first protoype engine flew in a Tu-16 Badger testbed in 1990. Prototype engines delivered 39,600 lbf (176 kN) of wet thrust, with 45,000 lbf (200 kN) a design target for the engine. Originally developed for the Mikoyan Project 1.44, the engine was built around the geometry of the AL-31F, making it compatible with existing airframes, including the Sukhoi Su-27 series. The engine is reported to have recently entered low rate initial production for use in the Su-34 Fullback.




Official Website of NPO Saturn who makes this engine.

&#205;&#207;&#206; "&#209;&#192;&#210;&#211;&#208;&#205;"

It is also available in English. Click the below link.

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/?slang=1

GB


----------



## Tiger Awan

Same thing again and again.

The engine pics show that there is no thing like stealth in these engines. Having 2 such engines and thinking of stealth? Please wait for at least 10 years.


----------



## Dark Angel

Growler said:


> Oh god not this bullcr2p again! either indians have habit of not reading or they are just too deluded.
> If indians are expecting huge structural changes on this prototype like that of YF-22 and F-22 then expect another 17 years until a final variant is in service with IAF. YF-22 flew in 91 F-22 in 97 and after 10 years did the F-22 cleared FOC in USAF. DO indian seriously expect a significant structural change like YF-22 F-22?




*Americans have a diffrent way of doing things than Russians and vice versa so pls dont make ur own theories the Pakfa will start induction in 2015 and fgfa in 2017 *

Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said he expected the FGFA aircraft to be very competitive in international markets because its price would be significantly lower than that of the American rivals.

&#8220;I think by definition this aircraft will be able to occupy up to one-third of the market,&#8221; the analyst said.Sukhoi head Mikhail Pogosyan voiced confidence that the FGFA will beat the U.S. F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters in cost-effectiveness.

According to designers, the FGFA will be a truly stealth plane almost invisible to enemy radars: it will be 40 times harder to detect than the Su-30MKI

India will be responsible for supplying the plane&#8217;s navigation systems, mission computer, cockpit displays and will provide composites for the airframe. While the Russian Air Force has opted for a single-seater, the IAF will get a modified two-seater derivative

*The Russian Air Force is expected to begin inducting the new aircraft in 2015. The twin-seat version for the IAF may be ready two years later. Each side plans to acquire 250 planes*


----------



## garibnawaz

Tiger Awan said:


> Same thing again and again.
> 
> The engine pics show that there is no thing like stealth in these engines. Having 2 such engines and thinking of stealth? Please wait for at least 10 years.



Its just the first flight.

Many more developments are yet to happen.

Why not wait and watch?

GB


----------



## Dark Angel

Tiger Awan said:


> Same thing again and again.
> 
> The engine pics show that there is no thing like stealth in these engines. Having 2 such engines and thinking of stealth? Please wait for at least 10 years.





Ah man why didnt u say this earlier it would have saved us so much time

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Tiger Awan

garibnawaz said:


> Its just the first flight.
> 
> Many more developments are yet to happen.
> 
> *Why not wait and watch?*
> 
> GB



O thanks God. At last we have decided to *WAIT*

So what is your idea? How much time will be taken to develop some deadly stealth features in this project.


----------



## garibnawaz

Tiger Awan said:


> O thanks God. At last we have decided to *WAIT*
> 
> So what is your idea? How much time will be taken to develop some deadly stealth features in this project.



2015 is when the Russian version will be inducted and 2017 is when the Indian FGFA will be ready.

No aircraft is upto its mark in its first flight.

Even for JF-17 PAF had a long wait with approval of RD-93 engine.

GB


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## hindustan

really a first flight and see face of all pakistani

but our real strenght is not planes and wepaons our strenght is 

our bigeest democracy 
our brotherhood H+m+s+I
our love for each other 
we have so many languages and regions which is the best example in the world 


so pakistani should understand the main thing wepaons cant win any war its human win any fight 



best of luck


----------



## Tiger Awan

garibnawaz said:


> 2015 is when the Russian version will be inducted and 2017 is when the Indian FGFA will be ready.
> 
> No aircraft is upto its mark in its first flight.
> 
> Even for JF-17 PAF had a long wait with approval of RD-93 engine.
> 
> GB



JF-17 did not went through major changes.

T-50 needs many!!! Are you thinking of inducting 4+ generation aircraft in 2017


----------



## Dark Angel

Tiger Awan said:


> JF-17 did not went through major changes.
> 
> T-50 needs many!!! Are you thinking of inducting 4+ generation aircraft in 2017



Bang on mate we are inducting a 4+ generation aircraft according to chinese


----------



## Tiger Awan

Dark Angel said:


> Bang on mate we are inducting a 4+ generation aircraft according to chinese





Excellent way of Satisfaction!


----------



## garibnawaz

Tiger Awan said:


> JF-17 did not went through major changes.



I think you were talking about Engine. Now since that is boomranged you are talking something else now?

What major changes of PAK-FA you are talking about?



> T-50 needs many!!! Are you thinking of inducting 4+ generation aircraft in 2017



Everyone including Americans and Chinese say its Fifth Generation Aircraft.

GB


----------



## garibnawaz

hindustan said:


> really a first flight and see face of all pakistani
> 
> but our real strenght is not planes and wepaons our strenght is
> 
> our bigeest democracy
> our brotherhood H+m+s+I
> our love for each other
> we have so many languages and regions which is the best example in the world
> 
> 
> so pakistani should understand the main thing wepaons cant win any war its human win any fight
> 
> 
> 
> best of luck



Totally useless, not releated and hence not necessary.

GB


----------



## beckham

Tiger Awan said:


> JF-17 did not went through major changes.
> 
> T-50 needs many!!! Are you thinking of inducting 4+ generation aircraft in 2017




It took Su-30mki almost 4-5 different prototypes before final variant.Same might be the case with PAK-FA, this is just the first prototype and could vary from the final one.


----------



## Tiger Awan

garibnawaz said:


> What major changes of PAK-FA you are talking about?




I am talking about its stealth features and you also said that many more developments are there!


----------



## Tiger Awan

garibnawaz said:


> Everyone including Americans and Chinese say its Fifth Generation Aircraft.
> 
> GB



Not again!!!

The first prototype is not a 5 generation aircraft


----------



## Dark Angel

I would ask all the critics what is the current answer against Pakfa china or pak has to offer .......Pls dont lay standard for 5th gen fighter in respect to F22 as the features of Pakfa are diffrent and are sky high in regards to 4th gen fighters like F16


----------



## gowthamraj

beckham said:


> It took Su-30mki almost 4-5 different prototypes before final variant.Same might be the case with PAK-FA, this is just the first prototype and could vary from the final one.



according to putin's quotes i think there is only modification in engine not in airframe


----------



## garibnawaz

Tiger Awan said:


> I am talking about its stealth features and you also said that many more developments are there!



Yeah so elaborate/explain it here.

What are the stealth features and development you are referring to?

Just dont put generic statements here.



> It took Su-30mki almost 4-5 different prototypes before final variant.



That happens with every aircraft including JF-17/FC-1. Between September 2003 to September 2006 JF-17 saw 6 prototypes as well.

GB


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## Luftwaffe

notorious eagle most likely the deign has no problems understand this is the first prototype and i am doubting this is going to be the engine used on Final production version therefore in simple words a wise man would even guess it easily... gambit is overtaken by his ego he is into dead meats these days. Lets give PAK-FA project to gambit for production line up..

supersonic..engines did smoke check the video again and again buddy.


----------



## Tiger Awan

garibnawaz said:


> Yeah so elaborate/explain it here.
> 
> What are the stealth features and development you are referring to?
> 
> 
> GB



Want to know about the stealth features lacking in T-50 plz check older posts by senior members.

Other developments are mentioned by you not by me.


----------



## dbc

fallstuff said:


> YouTube - PAKFA Complete HQ
> A little longer video



Pause the video at 2:29 and compare it to this image of the Raptor.
And then read this http://www.defence.pk/forums/531811-post51.html

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DaRk WaVe

there is no just info regarding Avionics & i have not heard anything about HMD & the video is also not showing any HMD moreover the advanced AAMs are yet to be tested, it is no way near Raptor & F-35 but no doubt a big problem for us..


----------



## garibnawaz

EmO GiRl said:


> it is no way near Raptor & F-35



If I was you, I would have waited till the final production aircraft came out.



> moreover the advanced AAMs are yet to be tested,



Everything with regards to Armaments is yet to be tested.



> but no doubt a big problem for us..



Really I thought Pakistan was invincible.

Thanks for making it clear.

GB


----------



## DaRk WaVe

YF-23 & PAK-FA


----------



## marcos98

HELL.......ill be damn happy if pakfa incorporates stealth characteristic of yf23.......
then pakfa will surely have good reduced rcs..


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Sukhoi Press Release, Translated



> The plane was piloted honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan Russia. Prototype PAK FA spent 47 minutes in the air and landed on the runway of the factory airfield.The flight was successful, in full accordance with the flight plan. "During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. The aircraft proved itself well in all phases of our intended flight program.They easily and comfortably manage ", - said Sergey Bogdan. Compared with previous generations of fighters, PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.
> 
> Fifth generation fighter aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the integrating function of e-pilot, and promising radar with a phased antenna array.This significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. On-board equipment of a new aircraft enables the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group.
> 
> The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility.This allows you to significantly improve the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions. "Today we started a program of flight tests of fifth generation fighter aircraft. This is a great success of Russia's science and engineering thought.For this achievement is worth more than a hundred co-operatives allied enterprises, our strategic partners. PAK FA program displays Russia's aircraft manufacturing and related industries on a qualitatively new technological level.These planes, along with modernized aviation system of the fourth generation will determine the potential of Russian military aircraft in the coming decades. The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is included and further development of the Program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners.I am confident that our joint project will surpass the Western counterparts by the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Air Force of Russia and India, but will take its place in the world market ", - said General Director of JSC" Sukhoi "Mikhail Pogosyan,Commenting on the start of flight testing.
> 
> Summary of fifth generation fighter aircraft. Compared with previous generations of fighters, the fifth generation has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.Fifth generation fighter aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the integrating function of the e-pilot, and promising radar with a phased antenna array.This significantly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks.
> 
> On-board equipment of a new aircraft enables the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group.The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility.This allows you to significantly improve the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions.Low visibility, aircraft performance and maneuverability allow to minimize the threat to the pilot, at the expense of the fifth generation fighter aircraft have increased survivability in difficult combat conditions, with the active counter air defense systems.
> 
> Increased radius of combat use leads to greater autonomy of the fifth generation fighter aircraft in the implementation of the planned combat missions. Fifth generation fighter aircraft will complement the fleet of modernized aircraft complexes of the fourth generation, as well as to replace the aging fleet of combat aircraft.In the long term availability of the fifth generation aircraft in service will allow customers to optimize and structure of the park, due to repeated increase combat effectiveness and capacity to address a broader range of tasks with a single plane.Program to create long-term aviation system of the fifth generation is a technological breakthrough in the domestic aircraft industry, which allows to maintain a stable leading position of Russia on the international market of combat aircraft.In the world aviation there is a unique analogue of fifth generation fighter aircraft - is the F-35, a product of Lockheed Martin.
> 
> The plans of the Company "Sukhoi" is the further development of the Program to create a fifth generation fighter aircraft and t*he creation of modification of aircraft with Indian partners.* The joint project will surpass the Western equivalent to the criterion of cost-effectiveness and will not only strengthen the defensive power of the Air Force of Russia and India, but will take a worthy place in the world market.


----------



## gogbot

I'm no expert on stealth.

But a word being tossed around a lot here is *"superior Stealth"*.

If an aircraft can avoid avoid detection by radar does it really matter if it is Less stealthy than other aircraft.



I am just asking, The goal of the Pak-FA was to make a plane with Very low RCS giving it Stealth.

The fact that thye have flown the plane means they have achieved a satisfactory RCS, giving the plane stealth.

So why is everyone caught up over the words *"superior Stealth"*.
May be the F-22 has a smaller RCS, does it matter Does the Pak-FA have a RCS that can be detected.

Since both aircraft are stealth Would it not just come down to Dog fighting as long range detections are out the window.

So the only way to tell which is better would be through dog Fighting capabilities

I am posing a question, feel free to educate me


----------



## gogbot

Tiger Awan said:


> Not again!!!
> 
> The first prototype is not a 5 generation aircraft



Oh is that so.

With what knowledge are you making that judgment.
Have you developed 5th gen fighters before, 

Are you some kind of authority on stealth.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> So the only way to tell which is better would be through dog Fighting capabilities



To early to predict anything, but it seems it will be not at level of F-22 & 35
The advanced Missiles on PAK-FA are yet to tested & there is no mention about HMD
every thing goes in favor of F-22 & F-35
now before you come on thrust vectoring, see this


----------



## Tiger Awan

Yes my dear the prototype is 5 generation aircraft because

Its engine is so stealthy that if you even place it at a distance of 1m from radar even then radar cant see it

It is giving coolest exhaust and a not a single molecule is black

Finally it is stealthy because India has funded the program


----------



## dbc

gubbi said:


> If you look closely *the engines are aligned at an angle to the central axis with the nozzles pointing lightly outwards*.



The inlet guide vanes are angled with respect to the line of sight so as to prevent direct observation by radar of the rotating fan blades.

Since Russian engines need more air this is the only way to achieve both requirements.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## marcos98

someone noticed......



2 PROTOTYPEs ??????

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## muslim282

Super Falcon said:


> ugly looking fighter jet



It,s capabilities that count.

Any info on it,s stats!


----------



## Tiger Awan

2 prototypes simultaneously? 

Cant say with 100% assurance but may be the change in the view angle let you to this claim.


----------



## chantpapipart2

Super Falcon said:


> ugly looking fighter jet


 Jealous


----------



## DaRk WaVe

marcos98 said:


> someone noticed......
> 
> 
> 
> 2 PROTOTYPEs ??????



they have actually made three prototypes but God knows if they have flown one or all of 'em that day


----------



## haawk

will you guys stop making a new thread for the same news.....i know a lot of people are proud and a lot jealous.......but this is sick ...each one making a new thread when he suddenly happens to see the news and thinks that he is the first one to hear it,,,,,,


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Tiger Awan said:


> And when are where are these tests conducted?
> 
> any reference.




Flying Lab has tested the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft
Topic: Creating a fifth generation fighter in Russia


MOSCOW, January 27 - RIA Novosti. The first flight of a flying laboratory Su-27M with a engine designed for the fifth generation fighter aircraft, successfully completed on January 21 in Zhukovsky near Moscow, said on Wednesday the press office of Saturn, the company-developer of the engine.
"The flight lasted 45 minutes and was successful, the comments to the engine was not. At the commencement of the flight engine, including a brand new automatic control system has taken a series of ad hoc and endurance tests. Upon completion of the required amount of flying laboratory tests obtained at the conclusion First flight of the fifth generation with a new engine, "- said in a statement.
Fifth-generation fighter, which in Russia is also called a promising frontline aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA), developed with the 1990's.
Creating a fifth generation fighter in Russia>>
New aviation complex will have several unique features: clock, all weather and stealth applications, low visibility and long-term supersonic flight. The aircraft will get a new on-board navigation station and a highly automated system of defense.
Representatives of the military-industrial complex said that tests of the new fighter will have to begin before the end of this year, but in early December, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said that the trials would begin in 2010.
Tests of the fifth generation fighter will begin in 2010>>
Plane at the end of last year made his first jog in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said earlier that the fifth-generation fighter will begin to act in Russia's troops in 2015.
JSC "Scientific-Production Association" Saturn "- engine manufacturing company that specializes in developing, manufacturing and after sales service of gas turbine engines for military and civil aircraft, ships of the Navy, power generation and gas pumping units. The company is part of the new engine of the Joint Corporation (JDC) - 100 per cent subsidiary of a corporation specialized Oboronprom engine-management assets.

Source: Novosti


----------



## Luftwaffe

I find it good looking i find F-35 horrible but F-22 a sweet tart but its the avionics and engine that'll change the scenario it sure is a bit smaller than YF-22 but larger than F-22.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

YouTube - First 5th generation multiaxis nozzle
Thanks for the video.

now look people.. exactly what i am trying to tell. TVC engine by no means stealthy and my point being that the with 2 huge engines vectoring up and down will emit huge IR signature and without even use of a radar IRST system will spot the plane BVR. Check out the nozzel of the engine which looks nothing different then a conventional non stealth engine nozzle. Their are tons of documentaries about stealthy engine nozzles like the one on F-22 and F-35.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

> Originally Posted by satishkumarcsc View Post
> Well TBH you cant say anything yet about this fighter...its just the first prototype. If you wanna see how Russian aircrafts change from prototype to production variants just check out the development of the T 10 to the SU 27. One cant say jack about the aircraft until it is out in the open. There are a lot of things which you need before giving an analysis of the aircraft. Yes the Engine nozzles are huge I agree but more design changes will be made. The aircraft looks more like a cross between the YF 22 and YF 23 to me. So I would rather wait for all the flight charecteristics to be known before making comments.


Oh god not this bullcr2p again! either indians have habit of not reading or they are just too deluded.
If indians are expecting huge structural changes on this prototype like that of YF-22 and F-22 then expect another 17 years until a final variant is in service with IAF. YF-22 flew in 91 F-22 in 97 and after 10 years did the F-22 cleared FOC in USAF. DO indian seriously expect a significant structural change like YF-22 F-22?


----------



## Luftwaffe

just one thing i never like about Russian planes "landing gears" rest is pleasing to eyes..


----------



## Kharian_Beast

When fully matured I'm sure no one will be laughing. But for now, we can laugh a little. That engine area needs more work than my first car did to qualify as 5th generation. Anyone check out that tiny nosecone? Does that house a MiG 21 radar by any chance? Absolutely in shambles when compared to the YF prototype that preceded the mighty F-22 Raptor.


----------



## TaimiKhan

*This is the 5th or 6th thread of same topic. 

Can't you guys before posting atleast have a look in other threads and see if the topic is already being discussed. *


----------



## gubbi

marcos98 said:


> someone noticed......
> 
> 
> 
> 2 PROTOTYPEs ??????



excellent observation.

Yes there are three prototypes existing. Two are for flight tests while the third one is for static tests.

The prototype which we see taxiing only in the video is the static/ground test model. The one which flew apparently has a different tail boom.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Myth_buster_1

The PAK FA does seem more conventional in this aspect of the design when compared to the Lighting and the Raptor.

Stealth under bay

Stealth underbay

Not so stealthy with a conventional air intake. Still 3rd most stealthy MRCA in the world after F-35 and F-22.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Growler said:


> Oh god not this bullcr2p again! either indians have habit of not reading or they are just too deluded.
> If indians are expecting huge structural changes on this prototype like that of YF-22 and F-22 then expect another 17 years until a final variant is in service with IAF. YF-22 flew in 91 F-22 in 97 and after 10 years did the F-22 cleared FOC in USAF. DO indian seriously expect a significant structural change like YF-22 F-22?



Well you are the one that is bullcrapping here mate. So you think this is the production variant...then you are living in a wonderland. The russian prototypes have been given the acronymn "t-" to say it is a prototype. So if F 22 raptor took so long will it take the Russians so long? And why bring the Raptor into this? Yes there will be some changes in the design and it will be done. First let it explore its flight envelope and characteristics then let us analyse the aircraft. And you dont work in Sukhoi or the Boeing to tell how long it will take for them to accomplish it.


----------



## Kharian_Beast

And judging by the reaction on the forum world I don't know why India is celebrating an uphill battle in Russia that isn't over. The way this was leaked to the public makes it seem the Russians are desperate to convey to the rest of the world that they have this tech on par with the U.S. Of course we are all basing these claims on what? A PR stunt by the Russian establishment who has billions tied in the Indian defence market, not to mention half their investment in this program? Timing with MMRCA is key by the way. This is why I feel that the engines look unfinished as they do along with just the overall appearance. 

Much ado about nothing. Does it have VTOL capability? STOL? Next generation HMCS ? Any weapons in those internal bays?


----------



## Luftwaffe

ok guys chill on both sides Do you guys not think that The designers Russian would not have given a thought about those engines and over all structure? Give it a time they have similarities from YF-23/F-22 i believe many other similarities will come up later on with other prototypes..


----------



## DaRk WaVe

taimikhan said:


> *This is the 5th or 6th thread of same topic.
> 
> Can't you guys before posting atleast have a look in other threads and see if the topic is already being discussed. *



lol there are probably 10


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Growler said:


> The PAK FA does seem more conventional in this aspect of the design when compared to the Lighting and the Raptor.
> 
> Stealth under bay
> 
> Stealth underbay
> 
> Not so stealthy with a conventional air intake. Still 3rd most stealthy MRCA in the world after F-35 and F-22.



no offence but looking at these pictures it seems Russians have used a 'desi style engineering' to make a 5th gen 

one more thing is that Raptor & F-35 have almost straight belly but in case of PAK-FA is more like a flanker 

this Russian plane is long way from been operational, weapons testing etc are going to take time, so just wait & see


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## gogbot

EmO GiRl said:


> To early to predict anything, but it seems it will be not at level of F-22 & 35
> The advanced Missiles on PAK-FA are yet to tested & there is no mention about HMD
> every thing goes in favor of F-22 & F-35
> now before you come on thrust vectoring, see this
> 
> YouTube - f-35 lightning II DAS system



You just said it is too early to predict anything and then you say.



> every thing goes in favor of F-22 & F-35



Give the plane a chance, it just made its first flight.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> gubbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> excellent observation.
> 
> Yes there are three prototypes existing. Two are for flight tests while the third one is for static tests.
> 
> The prototype which we see taxiing only in the video is the static/ground test model. The one which flew apparently has a different tail boom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marcos98 said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone noticed......
> 
> 
> 
> 2 PROTOTYPEs ??????
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


the first one is in Video & we saw it landing 

seems both of 'em flew


----------



## sancho

Who can tell me what these holes below the tail fins are? Looks like some kind of air intake too me, what do you guys think? 














Doesn't look like the air comes out at the back, so it must be related to the engine right? Cooling maybe?


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## gubbi

EmO GiRl said:


> the first one is in Video & we saw it landing
> 
> seems both of 'em flew



No dear, only one flew. 

The first aircraft is painted Grey and that's the one with a 'tallish' tail boom. That particular airframe made the taxiing runs earlier this month.

The second airframe is unpainted and features a 'platypus tail' flattened tail boom. This is the one which made flihgt earlier yesterday.

heres some more info


> There are at least 3 PAK FA prototypes:
> 
> - The first one is a static model that is currently being tested in the Central Aero-Hydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) near Moscow, in Zhukovsky.
> 
> - The second is the so called "Kompleksny Naturny Stend" (KNS), which means "Complete Full-scale Model". It is almost a real plane, but not exactly (I don't think it can fly). T-50-KNS is the model that did the taxiing runaway trials last week. You can see it on the first picture here and its painted grey.
> 
> - The third is the actual flying prototype, T-50-1. That is the model that did the flying yesterday. You can see it on the second picture and it's unpainted.


credit: _artjomh_

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## Dash

EmO GiRl said:


> no offence but looking at these pictures it seems Russians have used a 'desi style engineering' to make a 5th gen
> 
> one more thing is that Raptor & F-35 have almost straight belly but in case of PAK-FA is more like a flanker
> 
> this Russian plane is long way from been operational, weapons testing etc are going to take time, so just wait & see


Hi Emo Girl -
Please dont underestimate Russian design as each and every combat plane they made, were better and most cases equivallent to western planes. If you just google it then you will find that simply coz of the flanker they want to go for raptor. The reason being now flankers have out grown and better than f-15s and F-18s (Exclude AESA, anyway Russia already made AESA). Design wise the Russians have a completely different philosophy. 

PAKFA by far is NOT a match for F-22 as its just a design phase and time for validating airframe. I am not an expert in aerodynamics to even compare F-22 and PAK FA from the design of the air intake or feusalage. However Each and every scieintist thinks how to counter other. The Russians just knew it better(The scientists). If you ask me links on Russian design philospphy. I will be happy to share some with you...

Regards
Dash


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## gubbi

sancho said:


> Who can tell me what these holes below the tail fins are? Looks like some kind of air intake too me, what do you guys think?



Air intakes for axillary power unit.


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## saurabh

Yeah, it seems like intake for cold air, to reduce IR. Just my guess..


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## DaRk WaVe

are they trying to reduce the IR signature

where is Growler? 

here goes the theory of hitting it at BVR


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> are they trying to reduce the IR signature
> 
> where is Growler?
> 
> here goes the theory of hitting it at BVR



Let him rest, so he can come up with something more imaginative tomorrow!!


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Dash said:


> Hi Emo Girl -
> Please dont underestimate Russian design as each and every combat plane they made, were better and most cases equivallent to western planes.



I am not under estimating them, i am just saying what i am seeing, the difference is very clear from the photographs, just look at 'em can't you see the difference



> If you just google it then you will find that *simply coz of the flanker they want to go for raptor.* The reason being now flankers have out grown and better than f-15s and F-18s (Exclude AESA, anyway Russia already made AESA). Design wise the Russians have a completely different philosophy.



 
well do i need to say anything
comparing F-15, F-16s & F-18s with Flankers will take us some where else, at least you must American superiority in Avionics

any ways Good night


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## Myth_buster_1

Huge difference.. one clearly has a huge edge over RCS reduction in design. the air intake is just like any conventional Su-27 flanker.


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## footmarks

When it comes to stealth, it seems everybody has forgotten the Beautiful big alien looking limited production B-2 bombers. They are the best looking aircrafts IMO. though not related to this thread, but I would certainly like to read some info about them and how they fit in in todays' 5th gen fighters. Can anybody shed some light on this please. I am a big fan of B-2 looks.


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## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> no offence but looking at these pictures it seems Russians have used a 'desi style engineering' to make a 5th gen
> 
> one more thing is that Raptor & F-35 have almost straight belly but in case of PAK-FA is more like a flanker
> 
> this Russian plane is long way from been operational, weapons testing etc are going to take time, so just wait & see



Don't join this unnecessary flaming of some people, just to degrade Pak Fa by looking only at its first pics! 
I noticed the lack of stealthy design at the fuselage and especially those black colored parts of the engines before too, but these are the only disappointing points imo so far. Apart of that it seems (still way too early to say, because official specs are still not known) to offer anything that was claimed before.
*Stealth capabilities:* The design is clearly leant on the YX 23 and if you check the Pak Fa thread, you will find a comparison of the angled wing and fin design of it and F22 which is pretty similar. Same goes for the angled air intakes and the lower positioned intake with the higher engine, to make the engine blades less detectable.
It offers 2 internal weapon bays under the fuselage and 2 more on the wings.
That the engine nozzels will be round and will offer less IR signature reduction than those of F22 is not surprising at all! It was stated fromthe beginning that PaK Fa will have 3D TVC, instead of the 2D of F22.
As I said above, only the round and not angled parts of the engine covers and fuselage confueses me, because even for the normal Flankers the Russian tested better stealth designed fuselage, what makes me guess that this part is not fully developed.
Which is not a problem like some members want to convince us. because this is only a prototype for flight and system tests. Just think about Mig 35 and Gripen NG in MMRCA which are also only available in prototypes for tests and integration, similar case.

*Supercruise:*
The new engine, that even in the pre-versions proved SC capabilities on Su 35, combined with the similar wing design like the F22, hints that this capabilitiy will be available too (check the Bill Sweetsman article also).

*Supermaneuverability: *
3D TVC engines and the movable LERX will make it very agile.

These points alone makes it good and a clear improvment of Russia and India and should fullfil their requirements, but as I said, this is only one of the prototypes and waaaay too much ist still unknown about its capabilities (integration of L Band radar, cockpit design, how many weapons can be carrierd internally and what kind of, final radar capabilities...) and we can just speculate at the moment.

Btw, there are new weapons under development, extra designed for the internal weapon bays, but it should be clear that it can be use many of the present weapons too (R73, R77/ Astra, should be no problem). 
Avionics will be the biggest secret till the end, because India will most likely go for a mix of Indian and western again. HMD will be interesting too, the Russians were the first that had them and India now has the Topsight I, wonder if they develop a totally new for Pak Fa/FGFA.

Of course these techs and weapons must be fully developed and integrated, but nobody said that the fighter is ready, or must be ready tomorrow right? Pak Fa is planed for induction in 5-6 years, FGFA even in 7-8, so no need to hurry!
Btw, F35 is also only in testing and integration stage and is delayed for 2 years now (I think only 10% of the testflights could be done so far), so again it is way too early to make conclusions about ...vs...!

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## SSGPA1

kashith said:


> So are you saying India will not have enough atf to fuel its aircrafts? We do have few reserves but they are enough to take care of defence needs



Read my comment and read it again to get some _giyaan_. When DODs take decissions about platforms they always, always look itno the fuel consumption because these numbers are used in order to compare a certain jet against another jet. It is not about India having reserves or not but it is getting the most of out your reseources. Each jet sortie in war scenario will make an impact on reserves.



kashith said:


> JSF is no match for the raptor..It is too expensive to maintain the raptor that is why JSF came in picture..Just like F-15 and F-16..



You should be proud of the grass that grows in your lawn because it has certainly made an effect on your mental health. 

Just look at the customers of F-35 - NATO, US and Israel.

F-22: Two squadrans with the USAF. Production lines are now closed. F-22 waslaunched to avoid a gap befor the launch of JSF. There was hope that F-22 will have some customers but it didn't work out that way.




kashith said:


> Do you think India does not have enough money ???We are solvent dude....Not asking for money or soft loans....We can pay for both the fighter jets..



Again read and understand first and then spit the vomit that has filled the void in your skull which is there due to the lack of a brain.

It is not efficient to run an AF on multiple platforms. With India working on LCA and spending money on MRCA means that the LCA experience and the ToT (if any) would help the IAF to develop a fifthe gen plane with the winner of the MRCA or locally. 



kashith said:


> Amazing analysis..Chinese are already developing J-XX..Why will they be partners in PAKFA.???



Once IAF is out, again after investing money in MRCA, if there is any sanity the IAF will get out of this late and over budget junk.


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## sancho

EmO GiRl said:


> are they trying to reduce the IR signature


That was my first though too, because it's clearly related to the engine and would be a smart way to equalise the IR signature disadvantage of the 3D nozzels.


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## SSGPA1

sancho said:


> Sorry, but I heared a lot of strange comments against Pak Fa today, but this tops everything!
> It's not good because it burns too much fuel???



For the 100th time, if you don't know about military logistics then don't waste time in replying.

All forces around the globe, look at different platforms and compare them and these comparisons also include the consumption of fuel as well.


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## SSGPA1

indianrabbit said:


> I am enjoying the fact that how few students having no expertise enjoying criticizing something that they can not even think of developing a spare part of.



I understand that rabbits have very limited thinking capability but I am surprised to see that an indianrabbit lacks it completly 

We manufacture subs and jets so think before writing nonsense! Our missile system is FAR superior then your Brahmos so again think twice before writing crap!

On the other hand, it is your country which gets stuck and chokes whenever you try to manufacture anything.

If we were going to spend $12 Billion for a new jet, it would have been completly manufactured and designed in Pakistan. Your airforce is running around from country to country and begging for technology.

Beg us and we may consider granting you Mushak technology.


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## Myth_buster_1

most probably a PS Su-27


but see.. my point being. PAK-FA looks like Flanker brother.


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## Dark Angel

Hey guys calm down I think u have raised your blood pressure enough for the last 48hrs ........Keep ur hand on ur heart and say ALL IS WELL.....ALL IS WELL


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## SSGPA1

Dark Angel said:


> Hey guys calm down I think u have raised your blood pressure enough for the last 48hrs ........Keep ur hand on ur heart and say ALL IS WELL.....ALL IS WELL



it is not the rise of blood pressure it is our natural aggressiveness ... and all is well because we are ahead of the game.


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## B!gFoot

airvoila.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/sukhoi-su-47-berkut-aguila-dorada-vista-desde-la-panza.jpg

I can't post pic but check this out, the berkut belly in 97'
it had a belly similar to that of f-22 and f-35(stealth wise)
the Russians will probably change PAK-FA as this is only a prototype


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## Dark Angel

Now this is a SU30MKI...................

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## Myth_buster_1

Dark Angel said:


> Now this is a SU30MKI...................



looks pretty much the same.


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## Myth_buster_1

Dark Angel said:


> Hey guys calm down I think u have raised your blood pressure enough for the last 48hrs ........Keep ur hand on ur heart and say ALL IS WELL.....ALL IS WELL



to be honest with you. MKI gave us more blood pressure 2-3 years ago but now after seeing this PAK-FA i am actually happy PAK-FA is like this... modified Su-27 stealth plane.

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## Dark Angel

look how diffrent the wings and the nose is ................


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## Dark Angel

Growler said:


> to be honest with you. MKI gave us more blood pressure 2-3 years ago but now after seeing this PAK-FA i am actually happy PAK-FA is like this... modified Su-27 stealth plane.



But along all this my friend u know the real winner is IAF as they must be parting hard without any enemy fighter to worry about


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## Myth_buster_1

Dark Angel said:


> But along all this my friend u know the real winner is IAF as they must be parting hard without any enemy fighter to worry about



You mean like the party that was interrupted with destruction of entire mig-21 fleet in the ground during 65 war? 

Even better for us that our enemy thinks we are sleeping.. bu you know wa? we have a plan to effectively counter IAF and J-10B J-XX are one of them.


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> Huge difference.. one clearly has a huge edge over RCS reduction in design. *the air intake is just like any conventional Su-27 flanker. *



Either you need to see an eye doctor or you're smoking or snorting something you shouldn't, or both.

Look at the following picture, they're nothing alike.http://mi9.com/datawallpapers/data/19/1323/1155988321/su-30-fighter-wallpaper_1024x768.jpg


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## Dark Angel

Growler said:


> You mean like the party that was interrupted with destruction of entire mig-21 fleet in the ground during 65 war?
> 
> Even better for us that our enemy thinks we are sleeping.. bu you know wa? we have a plan to effectively counter IAF and J-10B J-XX are one of them.



Stop living in 1965 mate this is 2010 and if i start with the list that IAF has today u know what it will lead to ................


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## Kharian_Beast

While I doubt Pakistan can put up an aircraft to directly threaten a 5th gen anytime soon, I think the PAK-FA will be susceptible to serious, well placed, long range S2A SAM (and more awareness platforms on the ground and in the air to survey for incoming threats).


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## Myth_buster_1

Kharian_Beast said:


> While I doubt Pakistan can put up an aircraft to directly threaten a 5th gen anytime soon, I think the PAK-FA will be susceptible to serious, well placed, long range S2A SAM (and more awareness platforms on the ground and in the air to survey for incoming threats).



7 years is enough for PAF to negotiate and strike a deal with CHina for J-XX.

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## Ruag

Growler said:


> You mean like the party that was interrupted with destruction of entire mig-21 fleet in the ground during 65 war?



Oh! Are you talking about the Pakistani air raids at Pathonkot air base?

Those raids in which PAF carried out a coward attack and took great pride in destroying IAF jets on ground? Yup! That surely interrupted the IAF party.


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## Myth_buster_1

Ruag said:


> Oh! Are you talking about the Pakistani air raids at Pathonkot air base?
> 
> Those raids in which PAF carried out a coward attack and took great pride in destroying IAF jets on ground? Yup! That surely interrupted the IAF party.



thats only 1/5 of IAF aircraft destroyed by PAF raids.


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## Kharian_Beast

Growler said:


> 7 years is enough for PAF to negotiate and strike a deal with CHina for J-XX.



According to which source though? It is simply hard to believe China will go from 3rd to 4th generation (or 4th to 5th NATO) in such a short time span with the explicit inability to fully develop an engine suitable for J-11 or J-10 in terms of production. This has directly hindered our JF-17 problem. Their is simply no chance China can directly stack up with Russia in terms of aviation industry. It's growing and yes they have loads of cash, but the expertise to develop stealth is at least 20 years off in my opinion.


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> wow wow.. calm down.. shanti shanti... i have no idea *what you are trying to prove*?



That the intakes are clearly different...

Seriously you just made a fool out of yourself. With your logic the F-15 has the same intakes as the F-22...

You should work for Sukhoi because appearently you know more than they do. 





Growler said:


> that you are a idiot?



 says the guy that's compairing the Flanker intakes to the Pakfa  x1000


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## paritosh

@Growler
dude what exactly is wrong with the air-intakes in the PAK-FA?
The engine is buried in the fuselage and there is visible planform alignment....
I am pretty sure that the Ruskies have used bafles in the air-intakes as well...


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## Ruag

Growler said:


> thats only 1/5 of IAF aircraft destroyed by PAF raids.



Say whatever you want, but Pakistani claims of destroying entire Indian MiG-21 fleet was proved false when Wing Commander Wollen led an entire squadron of IAF MiG-21 flypast two days after the Pathankot raids.

The entire world knows about it. Too bad that the Pakistanis still continue to believe the 1965 war-time propaganda.

Anyways, continue living in 1965. No wonder, you guys are ahead of us in so many aspects.

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## saurabh

Kharian_Beast said:


> While I doubt Pakistan can put up an aircraft to directly threaten a 5th gen anytime soon, I think the PAK-FA will be susceptible to serious, well placed, long range S2A SAM (and more awareness platforms on the ground and in the air to survey for incoming threats).



How will a SAM (that too long range) detect a stealth AC??


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Kharian_Beast said:


> According to which source though? It is simply hard to believe China will go from 3rd to 4th generation (or 4th to 5th NATO) in such a short time span with the explicit inability to fully develop an engine suitable for J-11 or J-10 in terms of production. This has directly hindered our JF-17 problem. Their is simply no chance China can directly stack up with Russia in terms of aviation industry. It's growing and yes they have loads of cash, but the expertise to develop stealth is at least 20 years off in my opinion.



and you think China will start the work from now on? HELLOOOO China is in process of introducing their first prototype to the world!


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## Dark Angel

Growler said:


> and you think China will start the work from now on? HELLOOOO China is in process of introducing their first prototype to the world!




*How can u say that when no one in the world knows that at least Pakfa was official*


----------



## Myth_buster_1

ptldM3 said:


> That the intakes are clearly different...
> 
> Seriously you just made a fool out of yourself. With your logic the F-15 has the same intakes as the F-22...


seriously this is your 2nd lame attempt to dis me by portraying yourself. haha i dont have to attack you personally you are doing it for yourself. 
F-15 and F-22 have better stealth characteristics then PAK-FA and Su-27.


> You should work for Sukhoi because appearently you know more than they do.


thanks for the complement.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Ruag said:


> Say whatever you want, but Pakistani claims of destroying entire Indian MiG-21 fleet was proved false when Wing Commander Wollen led an entire squadron of IAF MiG-21 flypast two days after the Pathankot raids.
> 
> The entire world knows about it. Too bad that the Pakistanis still continue to believe the 1965 war-time propaganda.
> 
> Anyways, continue living in 1965. No wonder, you guys are ahead of us in so many aspects.



haha. now thats what i call.. indian ego satisfaction pathological lying remark. Indians are simply the best when it comes to fake victories and propaganda. 
on the other hand.... Its a well documented by PAF when BBC reporters came to our base and interviewed the squadron pilots who destroyed all migs on the ground.. .thats why Migs never ever saw any actions or were seen in action ever again in 65 war.

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## Kharian_Beast

saurabh said:


> How will a SAM (that too long range) detect a stealth AC??



I don't think this PAK-FA will be anything that future systems will not be capable of hitting of. For now though all Pakistan really needs is something in the capability of S400 system to deter any aerial threat.

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## saurabh

Kharian_Beast said:


> I don't think this PAK-FA will be anything that *future systems* will not be capable of hitting of. For now though all Pakistan really needs is something in the capability of S400 system to deter any aerial threat.



Now this is far fetched. We dont know much about PAKFA let alone counter measures against it.
As for as what is known now, sam will use radar to detect the target. Stealth means AC wont be detected at long distances. Meaning for what we know now, long range sams are meaningless.


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## ptldM3

Growler said:


> seriously this is your 2nd lame attempt to dis me by portraying yourself. haha i dont have to attack you personally you are doing it for yourself.



Nice comback...for someone that just got owned. Nothing else to add about the F-22/F-15 intakes? I think my work here is done.




Growler said:


> *F-15 *and F-22 have better stealth characteristics then PAK-FA and Su-27.



When pined to the wall change the subject ^^^ as for your comment about F-15 being more stealth then the Pakfa, that just proves you're a troll.


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## saurabh

ptldM3 said:


> Nice comback...for someone that just got owned. Nothing else to add about the F-22/F-15 intakes? I think my work here is done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When pined to the wall change the subject ^^^ as for your comment about F-15 being more stealth then the Pakfa just proves you're a troll.



Forget him, he is convinced it is a repainted su27...

So, any news about avionics and other items?


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## jha

whatever works should be incorporated....russians are not retards ....thinking that they will leave any scope of stelth going for a toss just because of IR signature was a ridiculous idea ...that too for their masterpiece...anyways its just a prototype...aage aage dekho hota hai kya...JEETE RAHO AUR PEETE RAHO and vice versa


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## Dark Angel

Growler said:


> haha. now thats what i call.. indian ego satisfaction pathological lying remark. Indians are simply the best when it comes to fake victories and propaganda.
> on the other hand.... Its a well documented by PAF when BBC reporters came to our base and interviewed the squadron pilots who destroyed all migs on the ground.. .*thats why Migs never ever saw any actions or were seen in action ever again in 65 war*.




*Dont post blindly *


4 September 1965 IAF MiG-21F-13 shoots downs PAF F-86E 

4 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL "C1111" FltLt Manbir Singh shoots downs PAF Sabre F.6 

6 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Samar Bikram Shah shoots downs PAF F-6 

6 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL shoots PAF CC-130 

12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL "C750" FltLt Bharat Bhushan Soni shoots PAF F-104A 

12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Niraj Kukreja shoots PAF F-104A 

12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL SqnLdr Iqbal Singh Bindra shoots PAF F-104A 

16 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Samar Bikram Shah shoots PAF F-6 

17 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL A. K. Datta shoots PAF F-104A 

17 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL Samar Bikram Shah shoots PAF F-104A (damaged) 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21#Indo-Pakistan_1971_war


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## Ruag

Growler said:


> haha. now thats what i call.. indian ego satisfaction pathological lying remark. Indians are simply the best when it comes to fake victories and propaganda.
> on the other hand.... Its a well documented by PAF when BBC reporters came to our base and interviewed the squadron pilots who destroyed all migs on the ground.. .thats why Migs never ever saw any actions or were seen in action ever again in 65 war.



Yes! Yes! Those PAF squadron pilots interviewed exemplify the honesty and integrity so widespread in your country. 

And the IAF didn't use MiG-21 because all of them were apparently destroyed huh? Read this - 
IAF MiG-21s At War

IAF acquired the MiGs in 1964 and had no time to arm them with appropriate missiles and train pilots. And once these objectives were met, the MiG-21s ruled the skies. The performance during 1971 is for everyone to see.

Besides... satisfy ego for what? We aren't the ones taking pride in destroying jets on ground. 

Anyways, going off-topic.

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## jha

ignore him...he has just taken the wrong pill today.....


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## kashith

SSGPA1 said:


> Read my comment and read it again to get some _giyaan_. When DODs take decissions about platforms they always, always look itno the fuel consumption because these numbers are used in order to compare a certain jet against another jet. It is not about India having reserves or not but it is getting the most of out your reseources. Each jet sortie in war scenario will make an impact on reserves.


Global strategic petroleum reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Please read this link...And it is Gyaan not Giyaan..Should have paid attention at school...Oh right...You must have been busy learning about Jihad....



SSGPA1 said:


> You should be proud of the grass that grows in your lawn because it has certainly made an effect on your mental health.



Well what can I say..you are one omniscient one.As Dave's company's motto is "THERE IS NO OFF POSITION ON GENIUS SWITCH!!!!!Dude by abusing Indians you are not gonna get into Heaven for your fair share of virgins!!!!



SSGPA1 said:


> Just look at the customers of F-35 - NATO, US and Israel.



True very true..but F-22 is way way superior to JSF...Actually F-22 is an overkill.At the time of its launch there was not a single plane which can challange it,and the situation is not gonna change in the next 15 years..Gambit once posted the amount of maintenance required for a F-22.And the result is the most awesome plane ever..
These clients are opting for JSF because US congress has banned the sale of F-22 to any other country,Not even Israel which is as you pakistanis love to quote,lap adorement of US.



SSGPA1 said:


> F-22: Two squadrans with the USAF. Production lines are now closed. F-22 waslaunched to avoid a gap befor the launch of JSF. There was hope that F-22 will have some customers but it didn't work out that way.


Once again..F-15 and F-16 analogy.F-15 was the Galactus,really awesome but expensive to maintain..so F-16 ,the silver surfer was created.F-22 cannot be sold to any other country due to Congress ban.Seriously start reading some good newspapers like New York Times or Washington Post.




SSGPA1 said:


> Again read and understand first and then spit the vomit that has filled the void in your skull which is there due to the lack of a brain.



Right,You got it right man.... I lack brain..but there is one thing we Indians learn which is called Humility.spelt as H-U-M-I-L-I-T-Y.which obviously your brain would be unable to parse.....Crash and BURN !!!!!!! 



SSGPA1 said:


> It is not efficient to run an AF on multiple platforms. With India working on LCA and spending money on MRCA means that the LCA experience and the ToT (if any) would help the IAF to develop a fifth gen plane with the winner of the MRCA or locally.



Do you know how many platform USAF has?? or Ruskies have or for that PLAAF has????IF India is trying to do the same it is not efficient??Just because your country does not has different aircraft it becomes inefficient for other countries?Awesome reasoning.Gem of logical coherence.....



SSGPA1 said:


> Once IAF is out, again after investing money in MRCA, if there is any sanity the IAF will get out of this late and over budget junk.


Junk???If this is junk then what is JF-17???Give respect where it is due.....

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## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> Nice comback...for someone that just got owned. Nothing else to add about the F-22/F-15 intakes? I think my work here is done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When pined to the wall change the subject ^^^ as for your comment about F-15 being more stealth then the Pakfa just proves you're a troll.



But as PAKFA is not ready yet and F15SE could be ready anytime, its safe to say that F-15 SE would have more stealth then PAKFA. So until PAKFA characteristic and components are put together, its too early to talk about PAKFA. Russia (USSR) is very sensible about not bragging too much. But I guess this is a "joint" military project between India and Russia and so Russia is require to make this a major news for the sake for Indian bragging. Is bragging even written into the contract.


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## RPK

domain-b.com : The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy


The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy news 

Rajiv Singh
30 January 2010 

Moscow: The successful debut test flight of the Russian Sukhoi-designed fifth-generation fighter jet in the Russian Far East on Friday is already creating ripples, including those of the envious kind. The fighter prototype, designated the PAK-FA T-50, is meant to be Russia's answer to the American Lockheed constructed F-22 Raptor.


Sukhoi's T-50 fighter taking off for its test flight 
Indeed, Western military sources, for long, have referred to it as the 'Raptorski.' 

The 47-minute flight carried out by Sergei Bogdan, one of Russia's best test pilots, marks the launch of a five year long project that will see two versions of the aircraft being developed. In accordance with the operational doctrines of both air forces, a single-seat version will be developed for the Russian Air Force and a two-seat version for the Indian Air Force.

While induction of the single-seat version for the Russian Air Force is slated for 2015, the twin-seat version for the IAF will likely be ready only two years later.

The two-seat version is being worked upon by Indian aerospace engineers from the country's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). India and Russia have agreed to co-develop the fighter and share the estimated development costs of $8-10 billion equally. Both nations will also place similar quantum of orders for the production version of the aircraft &#8211; approximately 250 aircraft each.

The Indians are also entrusted with a 25 per cent share of the design and development work.

The Indian version of this advanced stealth fighter is designated the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Following Friday's successful test, Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin has said that initial induction of the aircraft with the Russian Air Force must begin in 2013, even though mass production is slated only for 2015.

Speaking to Russian TV from an airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the company's KnAPPO production facility is located, Sukhoi's director general, Mikhail Pogosian said, "I think this is a new stage in the development of the military aircraft industry in our country, and I believe that this is a very good start of a big work we have yet to do."

According to Sukhoi, the T-50 will display "intellectual" capabilities allowing it to fly at any time of the day and in any weather conditions. The aircraft will be capable of simultaneously attacking multiple targets in air, on the ground and in the sea. The plane is also touted to have a very high degree of manoeuvrability and a very short take-off and landing capability.

"It will also be less recognizable for radars thanks to many innovations, the use of composite materials and a special coating on the surface of the plane," Suhkoi officials informed the media. They said that the T-50 would now allow them to catch up with the Americans, who developed advanced stealth technologies much before.

Predictably, the test flight has drawn a certain amount of scorn from some military observers.

They point out that the new prototype doesn't have new engines or electronics and hence cannot qualify to be called a fifth generation fighter, for it is components such as these that allow it to be placed in another generation. They said that the prototype was only a souped up model of the existing Su-27 platform and have characterised the test flight as a ''bluff.''

Not so far back in time, when the Su-27 platform, with its thrust vectoring engines and advanced aeronautic capabilities, was making its first entry into the world of military aviation similar scorn was heaped upon it. It was denied that the aircraft would succeed in displaying the kind of capabilities that the Russians claimed it would. 

As Russian experts point out even the Su-27 made its first appearance borrowing engines from earlier models.

Strangely, the Western air forces now consider it a privilege to be able to take on its advanced variants, such as the Indian Su-30MKI, in air-to-air exercises. 

For India, the Russo-Indian FGFA will mark a quantum jump in technology development for it will be the first time they will be involved in developing fifth generation technologies as full-fledged partners.

Both countries are set to sign commercial contracts and set up a joint venture company to build the aircraft. The BrahMos joint venture model is being kept in mind for this project as well, for it is indeed a successful example of joint venture cooperation

As for mutual understandings arrived at so far with regard to the project, India will supply the plane's navigation systems, mission computer, cockpit display, and also provide composites for the airframe. 

Sukhoi chief is also confident about the cost-effectiveness of the fighter in comparison to its American counterparts &#8211;the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II.

''The joint Russian-Indian aircraft will not only strengthen the defence might of the Russian and Indian air forces, but will take a worthy place in the world market,'' said Pogosyan.

According to Sukhoi, the FGFA will have a radar cross section (RCS) that will be 40 times less than that of the Su-30MKI. While the Su-30MKI has an RCS of about 20 square metres, the FGFA will display an RCS of 0.5 square metres, making it almost invisible to enemy radar.

Its ''intellectual'' capability will lie in data fusion, with a wide variety of inputs being electronically combined and displayed to pilots in an easy-to-read form. Data inputs will come from the fighter's infrared, radar, and visual sensors.

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## Supersonic26

@ buddy rpraveenkum
thank you buddy for the latest news. PAK-FA RCS 40 times less then SUKHOI-30MKI WOW. now thats what i call something. 0.5 meter vs 20 meters. i love PAK-FA. Sukhoi-30MKI still makes enemy fear with eyes wide open. They still didn't have answer for Su-30MKI. Now PAK-FA will come by 2017 to put more burden of fear on them. PAK-FA the beast and the beauty. Thank you again buddy for the latest news.


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## Supersonic26

EmO GiRl said:


> they have actually made three prototypes but God knows if they have flown one or all of 'em that day



emo ji i think there were two prototypes that flown that day. 1 of them was bit yellowish and other one was bit bluish. To be honest i was bit confused watching the video because the color of PAK-FA to me seems like changing. 1st yellow, the blue and top view shown black and bit gray. i thought may be russia painted PAK-FA prototypes with 3 colors lol. There were two prototypes that flown on 29th jan.


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## Srinivas

Thomas said:


> While Russia may have imitated some what the YF-23. As the photo's show the YF-23 incorporates far superior stealth characteristics then the T-50.



I think thrust vectoring is not possible with YF23 design as the engine outlets are incorporated into frame, And we cannot infer the stelth characteristics of PAK FA since body shape is not the only stealth feature.


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## Srinivas

gambit said:


> The way the exhausts are designed, rear aspect IR and RCS signatures will doubled or even tripled from front. Not good. Dead meat for the Raptor.
> 
> Exhaust nozzle convergent coupled with throttle setting control thrust. Everything on a body create its own RCS signature and contribute to the overall RCS value of the body. The convergent-divergent mechanisms of an afterburning turbojet engine are no exceptions, if anything, they are the major RCS creators of the rear aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take a look at 'iris' style exhaust convergent-divergent nozzle above. It is called 'iris' because the mechanisms works the same way the human eye controls its pupil opening. Look at all the 'feathers' and the gaps between them. Those are corner reflectors and I have explained plenty enough here on how dangerous corner reflectors are to designs intending to be radar LO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at the F-22 exhaust convergent-divergent mechanisms above. They are simpler in designs and because there are less mechanical 'doodads' such as actuators and 'feathers' the F-22 exhausts are far less RCS contributors than exhausts with the 'iris' convergent-divergent exhausts.
> 
> The downside to the F-22's exhaust mechanisms is that it restrict thrust vectoring to 2D, whereas with the 'iris' style, the exhaust TV can be 3D, provided there are sufficient clearance between nozzles, which lead us to the controversial subject of design philosophy, specifically engine placements. Wide area engine placements have advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I have never been a proponent of wide area engine placements. The argument here is that for any reason, from bird ingestion to battle damage to 'Acts of God', in the event of a catastrophic engine failure that result in an engine explosion, the other engine would be somewhat protected. Given the fact that the airframe area between the engines are not empty but contain fuel, wirings and assorted mechanical items, an exploding engine will create enough collateral damage to render the aircraft unflyable anyway.
> 
> In the event of a non-exploding engine failure, widely spaced engines will create asymmetric thrust that can send the aircraft into a flat spin, which can be nonrecoverable. The combination here is speed, altitude, attitude and how far apart are the engines that the resulting asymmetric thrust will send the aircraft into a flat spin. An extreme example of asymmetric thrust is the C-17A Engine-Out Compensation System (EOCS) software upgrade to the aircraft's FLCS during take-offs and landings. For EOCS, the critical engine is the most outboard one on each wing if its companion outboard engine on the other wing fail. The software upgrade, upon sensing engine failure, would command a rudder deflection to compensate for the inevitable yaw (lateral) movement by the aircraft.
> 
> AOPA Online: AOPA Pilot's "An Invitation to Fly" - Beyond the Private
> 
> 
> Fighter aircrafts with multiple engines do not have as wide engine placements as multi-engined transports, nevertheless, asymmetric thrust is still a potential problem for pilot training. The F-14 and F-15 have wider engine placement schemes than the F-18. The wider the engine placements the higher of some energy loss when there is thrust. Any mechanical engineer will tell you that it is better to have thrust as much inline with the main longitudinal axis of the body as possible. It is necessary that thrust be in parallel, but the closer to the central axis, the greater the concentration of their combined thrust to the longitudinal axis, the more energy efficient the TV system. The downside is that the closer the engines are together, there will so little room for movement that 2D vectoring is the only option.
> 
> 3D vectoring require more complex flight control laws -- *IF* -- the desire is to automate the thrust vectoring. Automation require the removal of some of the decision making process from the pilot, which is *NOT* always a positive. The US have done extensive testing on the integration of propulsion into flight control laws, of which the C-17A EOCS is one deployed example, here is the history...
> 
> Propulsion Control of Airplanes
> 
> 
> NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Propulsion Controlled Aircraft
> 
> Essentially...If we have engine failures, there is still a good chance of recovery and survival via flight control surfaces, aka 'dead stick' landing as UA 232 demonstrated...
> 
> Deadstick landing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> But what if the aircraft loses some of its flight control surfaces, that is where PCA enabled flight control laws can help. Thrust vectoring works on similar principles as PCA but it is about the incorporation of *DELIBERATE* off-axis thrust not to recover a damaged aircraft but to radically enhanced its flight regimes. So asymmetric thrust can be exploited to good ends.
> 
> The PAK-FA's wide engine placements allows 3D vectoring, however, we do not know the extent of TV automation. Is the pilot allowed individual nozzle vector controls? Now that would remove a lot of mathematical complexity from the flight control laws but would transfer the burden to the pilot. After all, what good in having a feature if you do not know how or allowed to use that feature? Remember UA 232 above where the pilot had to manipulate the throttles himself. This mystery alone begs us to wonder how does Sukhoi view the pilot. Is he a 'killer' first and 'flyer' second? Or would the TV training and operation be so intensive that he would be so busy working the nozzles that he can lose situational awareness and lose the fight?
> 
> 3D vectoring is best when there is so little aerodynamic forces to exploit that in order to change aircraft attitude, an alternate force is required, this would be at very low airspeed, so low that even if there is any advantage to be gained over the F-22, the F-22 would have to be either battle damaged or at so low an altitude that the F-22 pilot has next to no room to maneuver. The Soviets/Russians do not have a good history of avionics and ergonomics. We knew that even before the Soviet Union collapsed.
> 
> Do not be gullible and impressed by that airshow 'cobra' maneuver. It was done with extraordinary airmanship acquired through years of flight experience and natural abilities. That is not how we want our air forces. We want an efficient combination of high flying capabilities and human instincts now. The American philosophy is -- make the aircraft do the flying as much as possible so the pilot can be a 'killer' primary and 'flyer' secondary. When the aircraft exceed maneuvering requirements just through aerodynamic exploitations alone, TV capability is gravy and having 2D only allow some pilot control and some automation without overly complex flight control laws. This is like creating one hundred above average airborne killers in one year instead of ten excellent ones in two years.
> 
> 
> Raptor is a classification of bird...
> 
> Bird of prey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Dead meat for the Raptor, baby...



The Engine development is taking place and the final shape of the engine outlets are still to be finalized, in that sense it is too early to predict the IR signatures


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## gogbot

What is is this *"more stealth"*.

*IF its stealth its stealth, What difference does it make what size its RCS is if it already undetectable by radar *

What is this obsession people about arguing things they know nothing about


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## Srinivas

EmO GiRl said:


> the first one is in Video & we saw it landing
> 
> seems both of 'em flew



Both are same during landing that flap is used for good landing i feel


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## chantpapipart2

*Russia&#8217;s new T50 fighter- A match for Raptor, Lightning 2?*
Russia isn&#8217;t exactly being coy about its first new fighter since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The plane is an announcement of Russia&#8217;s return to the forefront of arms manufacturing, and is being treated accordingly. 
It&#8217;s not a bad looking plane, either, but this design is somewhat unexpected. The T50 is made by Sukhoi, makers of the highly respected Flanker. Sukhoi make tough airframes, and have a tendency to stick them on high performance aircraft. Flanker can turn literally on its wing root, not easy for a jet, nor recommended for peace of mind of other pilots within 20km. 
So T50, which is nearly a wide delta design with some angle cutaway, is a bit out of the ordinary, because it's so un-stylized. The wing profile is one of the most fundamental jet fighter designs. This thing is built like a platform, lots of wing area, and a no-nonsense angled tail assembly which is obviously strictly engineer-inspired. 
T50 isn&#8217;t a fashion statement in design terms. T50 has a large number of hardpoints, so the concept imperatives are clear. It looks very much like &#8220;Make us a reliable plane&#8221; was the basic instruction. According to the hype, T50 is intended to carry a lot of hardware and avionics, and it makes sense that the design is tough rather than flashy. Given that the plane is also intended to be a multi role fighter, having somewhere to hang things is a major design consideration. 
The Russians are making a point of comparing T50 to America&#8217;s F22 Raptor, the &#8220;nobody else is allowed to buy it&#8221; fighter which Congress in its wisdom recently shut down. 
T50 is touted as a lightweight, long range, supersonic fighter (Mach 2) which pretty much sums up Russia&#8217;s basic tactical and logistic needs for a modern fighter. The comparison to Raptor, however, means comparison to a plane which is intended to provide air superiority in a very unambiguous way. The T50 is also said to be able to use short 1000 foot runways, an obvious indicator of deployment capabilities in combat. 
The plane is built of composite materials, and the Stealth aspect is based on creating a low acquisition profile, an alternative to the F117&#8217;s dramatic angles and lines. The economics of this in manufacturing and assembly are interesting, because it means the demand for specialist assembly capabilities is obviated. 
India, which is a partner in the T50&#8217;s development, is expected to provide manufacturing for its two seat version of the plane. The Indians are hoping to acquire 250 of these aircraft, and Indian Air Force commentators have been reasonably enthusiastic. The Indian T50 is expected to be operational in 2017. 
The big fuss, however, is about the &#8220;fifth generation&#8221; fighter capabilities. T50 is also being referred to as being a fifth generation fighter in the same sense as America&#8217;s laboriously developing and expensive Lightning II, aka Joint Strike Fighter, (JSF). It&#8217;s not yet proven, in any sense, that T50 is an actual equivalent of JSF, but the Russians are making a point of emphasizing the generational element. 
Realistically, a basic model like T50 could survive a lot of upgrades without any particular need for redesign, so if it's not an equivalent now, it could become one, and carry whatever it needs to match combat systems. 
The current stage of development is more likely to be good marketing than actual technology because the high loaded technically ultra-everything JSF is taking its own sweet time getting operational. If T50 is seen as the generic equivalent, or cheaper option, Russia can pick up quite a lot of business with this approach. They might be able to deliver operational planes while JSF is still teething. 
T50 isn&#8217;t a design freak show, which should be a lesson to aircraft designers around the world. &#8220;It works, it flies, it does the job&#8221; is the obvious message, and it sends the message very effectively. Don&#8217;t be surprised if this unpretentious little plane becomes the aerial equivalent of an AK47.


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## ptldM3

This is what a formor Lockheed Martin employee that worked on the F-22 has to say about the Pakfa:

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - The PAK-FA Saga Episode X

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## brahmastra

I'm still little disappointed on PAK-FA's RCS which is 0.5 compared to Raptor&#8217;s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS),the Lightning II&#8217;s 0.001 square metres and the F-35&#8217;s 0.01 square metre lower side and rear RCS. 

But, it is russia's first development in 'stealth' technology and they did very well.


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## brahmastra

*Imagine an apocryphal story of three fighter pilots meeting in the bar at an air combat conference in Stockholm, in the year 2015. Chuck is a NATO F-22A Raptor pilot based in Germany, Boris an Su-35-1 Flanker E Plus pilot flying from one of the bases protecting Moscow, and Johan, a F-35A Lightning II pilot from the Netherlands. All are masters of their craft and after drinks, &#8220;merely to lubricate the vocal chords&#8221;, they do what fighter pilots all over the world do &#8211; swap stories and make claims about their beloved aircraft.
*

Chuck starts. &#8220;I&#8217;m king of the skies,&#8221; he claims. &#8220;I supercruise at 52,000 feet and Mach 1.7. Boris, I can see you from ~100 nm, and my AIM-120D launch range at this Mach is 70 nm. You are one dead Flanker.&#8221; Boris acknowledges the performance of the APG-77 and the Raptor, but replies, &#8220;Your missiles are easy to avoid. When you fire, my OLS-35 will see the flare, and I will turn away to out-run the missile. You need to fire closer than 50 nm &#8211; even then at 50,000 feet and Mach 1.2, my Flanker can out-turn your missile. If you are side or rear on I can get a lock-on at ~40 nm and I have a choice of seeker heads, so you might wear an R-77M in the backside.&#8221; &#8220;No way Boris,&#8221; Chuck replies, &#8220;I know that game. I&#8217;m head on and you can&#8217;t see me until about ~15 nm. If I have not killed you at 50 nautical, I&#8217;m outa there at the speed of heat.&#8221; Boris and Chuck concede that there might be a nil-all draw, with Chuck being untouchable because of the Raptor&#8217;s stealth, altitude and speed and the well defended Su-35-1 defeating the Raptor&#8217;s missiles [1].

Now Boris makes his point. &#8220;Comrade Johan, I have something special for you. My IRBIS-E will see you head-on at ~25nm, but I fly my boys very wide and share the paints on our digital network. At side and rear looks, I see you at ~45 nm and my ramjet RVV-AE-PDs can get you at that range.&#8221; &#8220;No way&#8221;, Johan responds, &#8220;my APG-81 radar will see you at ~75 nm and I can launch at 50 nm. If you fire, my DAS will see the missile at launch, so I&#8217;ll turn away to break lock&#8221;. &#8220;And my wingman will see you in the turn, computer network will still know where you are, and we will skewer you in the cross-fire&#8221; is Boris&#8217;s riposte, &#8220;and you will run out of missiles before I do, If I duck your AIM-120D shots, I will win easily&#8221;. They bicker about the strengths of their own aircraft and weaknesses of the other&#8217;s and Johan grudgingly agrees the Flanker might be the winner. 

Chuck and Johan stay in the bar after Boris is unexpectedly &#8216;called away&#8217; by men in dark coats, and agree that work needs to be done on improving the AIM-120D&#8217;s terminal lethality.

curtsey : Peter Goon ,Carlo Kopp


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## ptldM3

brahmastra said:


> I'm still little disappointed on PAK-FA's RCS which is 0.5 compared to Raptor&#8217;s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS),the Lightning II&#8217;s 0.001 square metres and the F-35&#8217;s 0.01 square metre lower side and rear RCS.
> 
> But, it is russia's first development in 'stealth' technology and they did very well.



As far as i know the 0.5 RCS estimate was from a blogger who supposedly heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who worked at Sukhoi, that same blogger has been wrong before. As far a i know Sukhoi has said nothing about the true RCS. In the Russian news they said this:

"In the air it's almost impossible to acquire. If the SU-30, for instance, is seen on radar as a *4 to 5 meter *metalic object the fifth genneration aircraft will be 40 times smaller."

The RCS of the SU-30 is *20 sq *metres not *4 or 5 metres*...if that's true the real RCS would be much smaller than 0.5.


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## faithfulguy

Supersonic26 said:


> @ buddy rpraveenkum
> thank you buddy for the latest news. PAK-FA RCS 40 times less then SUKHOI-30MKI WOW. now thats what i call something. 0.5 meter vs 20 meters. i love PAK-FA. Sukhoi-30MKI still makes enemy fear with eyes wide open. They still didn't have answer for Su-30MKI. Now PAK-FA will come by 2017 to put more burden of fear on them. PAK-FA the beast and the beauty. Thank you again buddy for the latest news.



You must be kidding me, 0.5 meter is very very big and not even stealthy at all. I belive f-35 is 0.001 and f-22 is 0.0001, and a F-15SE is 0.01. 0.5 is the stealthiness of a Rafael. a 4+ generation fighter.

T-50 still needs a lot of work. It won't be ready for a while. I think for the sake of mother Russia, they should at least make it enough to be as stealthy as an F-35.


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## DaRk WaVe

brahmastra said:


> *Imagine an apocryphal story of three fighter pilots meeting in the bar at an air combat conference in Stockholm, in the year 2015. Chuck is a NATO F-22A Raptor pilot based in Germany, Boris an Su-35-1 Flanker E Plus pilot flying from one of the bases protecting Moscow, and Johan, a F-35A Lightning II pilot from the Netherlands. All are masters of their craft and after drinks, &#8220;merely to lubricate the vocal chords&#8221;, they do what fighter pilots all over the world do &#8211; swap stories and make claims about their beloved aircraft.
> *
> 
> Chuck starts. &#8220;I&#8217;m king of the skies,&#8221; he claims. &#8220;I supercruise at 52,000 feet and Mach 1.7. Boris, I can see you from ~100 nm, and my AIM-120D launch range at this Mach is 70 nm. You are one dead Flanker.&#8221; Boris acknowledges the performance of the APG-77 and the Raptor, but replies, &#8220;Your missiles are easy to avoid. When you fire, my OLS-35 will see the flare, and I will turn away to out-run the missile. You need to fire closer than 50 nm &#8211; even then at 50,000 feet and Mach 1.2, my Flanker can out-turn your missile. If you are side or rear on I can get a lock-on at ~40 nm and I have a choice of seeker heads, so you might wear an R-77M in the backside.&#8221; &#8220;No way Boris,&#8221; Chuck replies, &#8220;I know that game. I&#8217;m head on and you can&#8217;t see me until about ~15 nm. If I have not killed you at 50 nautical, I&#8217;m outa there at the speed of heat.&#8221; Boris and Chuck concede that there might be a nil-all draw, with Chuck being untouchable because of the Raptor&#8217;s stealth, altitude and speed and the well defended Su-35-1 defeating the Raptor&#8217;s missiles [1].
> *
> Now Boris makes his point. &#8220;Comrade Johan, I have something special for you. My IRBIS-E will see you head-on at ~25nm*, but I fly my boys very wide and share the paints on our digital network. At side and rear looks, I see you at ~45 nm and my ramjet RVV-AE-PDs can get you at that range.&#8221; &#8220;No way&#8221;, Johan responds, &#8220;my APG-81 radar will see you at ~75 nm and I can launch at 50 nm. If you fire, my DAS will see the missile at launch, so I&#8217;ll turn away to break lock&#8221;. &#8220;And my wingman will see you in the turn, computer network will still know where you are, and we will skewer you in the cross-fire&#8221; is Boris&#8217;s riposte, &#8220;and you will run out of missiles before I do, If I duck your AIM-120D shots, I will win easily&#8221;. * They bicker about the strengths of their own aircraft and weaknesses of the other&#8217;s and Johan grudgingly agrees the Flanker might be the winner.
> *
> Chuck and Johan stay in the bar after Boris is unexpectedly &#8216;called away&#8217; by men in dark coats, and agree that work needs to be done on improving the AIM-120D&#8217;s terminal lethality.
> 
> curtsey : Peter Goon ,Carlo Kopp



Yeah Flanker will win, they are yet to introiduce R-77M correct me if i am wrong & even AIM-120D is not on the field yet
Irbis-E on Su-35 its fight with F-35 was long time back explained by Gambit 



> *Tikhomirov NIIP has provided the ability to spot super-low-observable targets with RCS = 0.01 square meters at ranges out to 90 kilometers. *This capability might allow Su-35 aircraft to engage cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles as well as fifth generation stealth fighter aircrafts such as the F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. NIIP and GRPZ will take care of the Irbis production with the first radar system slated for installation on the Su-35 in August 2007.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gambit said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is outright misleading but should be expected from the Russians.
> 
> The official 'unofficial' standard for fighter aircraft size radar detection is between 200-300 km for a one meter square target, meaning that target will BECOME one meter square at that range. If anything, the 200-300 km is rather generous, effective target RCS usability is more like around 150-180 km. Usability mean the radar is able to maintain tracking of that target. As the target approaches, then its RCS increases to larger than one meter square.
> 
> The distance/power/frequency relationship is one that is often neglected whenever RCS is mentioned in just about all discussions. So when the F-35 is right in one's face, its RCS will be pretty much its physical dimensions, but at 200-300 km, the radar's signal has lost a considerable amount of its power due to distance traveled, that most of whatever left that actually impact the aircraft is absorbed and any reflection off the aircraft is classified by the radar as 'clutter'. That is how RCS figures like .0001-.0002m2 for the F-22 and the F-35 came to be. Without 'stealth' features like planforming and RAM, the same radar energy level will create a target RCS of 1-5m2 or greater.
> 
> So did the Russians lied when they said this: '...spot super-low-observable targets with RCS = 0.01 square meters at ranges out to 90 kilometers.' ? Not really a lie but partial truth. Yes...It is POSSIBLE, not definitive, that the F-35 will BECOME 0.01m2 at around 90km, but that distance is within AMRAAM-C's kill range. Not only that, this partial truth claim is contingent upon a head-on engagement which every pilot will try to avoid. So if a flight of F-35 with no external stores is alerted in anyway to the presence of a flight of Russian Suckhy junks, they will hit low altitude to get lost in ground clutter, get behind the Suckhys, then get so close that the enemy will not have time to maneuver against the AMRAAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## marcos98

MY WALLPAper already...........

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## DaRk WaVe

faithfulguy said:


> *You must be kidding me, 0.5 meter is very very big and not even stealthy at all. I belive f-35 is 0.001 and f-22 is 0.0001, and a F-15SE is 0.01. 0.5 is the stealthiness of a Rafael. a 4+ generation fighter.*
> 
> T-50 still needs a lot of work. It won't be ready for a while. I think for the sake of mother Russia, they should at least make it enough to be as stealthy as an F-35.



It is indeed *TOOO* big...

0.5 is quite impossible 

Rafale & EF have way better RCS



> *RCS ​*
> The base radar formula used is (RCS1/RCS2)^0.25. So the F-16C reduced RCS is 1.2 m2, standard fighter is 5 m2. (1.2/5)^0.25 = 0.69. Therefore the F-16C can be detected at 69&#37; of radar range as compared with a standard fighter.
> *B-52 Bomber* 100 m2 bomber range x1
> 
> *F-4, A-10* 25 m2 bomber x 0.71, fighter x 1.5
> 
> *B-1B Bomber *10 m2 bomber x 0.56, fighter x 1.19
> 
> *Tornado 8* m2 fighter x 1.12
> 
> *Generic fighter* 5 m2 fighter range x 1
> 
> *MiG-21* 3 m2 fighter x 0.88
> 
> *F-16C/18C *w. reduced RCS 1.2 m2 fighter x 0.7
> 
> *F-18E, Rafale* 0.75 m2 fighter x 0.62
> 
> *Eurofighter* 0.25-0.75 m2 fighter x 0.47-0.62
> 
> *Exocet, Harpoon missile* 0.1 m2 fighter x 0.38
> 
> *JSF *(&#8216;golf ball sized&#8217 0.005 m2 fighter x 0.18
> 
> *F-117, B-2, F-22* 0.0001 m2 fighter x 0.07
> 
> F-117, B-2 F-22 also given as 0.01-0.001 m2, &#8216;marble sized&#8217; or fighter x 0.12-0.21
> 
> F-22 RCS requirement was 1/1000th the F-15. This has probably be exceeded by a large margin. Even if the F-15 RCS is a large 25 m2, the F-22 is 0.025 m2 worst case (fighter x 0.26).



couple it with this, PAK-FA is indeed a dead meat for Raptor...



> *AWACSs today like E-2C Hawkeye 2000 and E-3C are capable to the detect the target of RCS = 1m2 class 250~300 km away.
> 
> And their maximal effective detection range to the fighters in the world should be:*
> 
> * F-15C & Su-27 (RCS = 10~15m2): 450 ~ 600 km
> * Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 420 ~ 500 km
> * MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 370 ~ 450 km
> * F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 330 ~ 395 km
> * F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 260 ~ 310 km
> * JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 210 ~ 250 km
> * Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 185 ~ 220 km
> ** Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 140 ~ 200 km
> * F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
> * MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
> * EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 120 ~ 170 km
> * F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 50 ~ 60 km
> * F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 30 ~ 45 km*
> 
> Even the tradional fighters (F-15, F-16) have the modern AWACS on their side, the stealthy fighter like F/A-22 with AIM-120 is still capable to give them the big surprise.
> 
> As for the low RCS NG fighters like EF-2000, MIG-42, and Rafale, if they are equipped with the NG BVRAAM like Meteor (Effective range: 90~100 km+ to the 9G maneuverable fighter, and 150~200 km+ to the big, slow and clumsy airplanes like AWACS...) and R-77M-PD (Maximal effective range: 160 km+), I think they also have certain amount of chance to give tradional fighters + modern AWACS today a surprise.


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## marcos98

possible weapons bay........


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## marcos98

THIS IS THE LATEST SPECULATION........GOIN ON IN PARALAY.....
WHICH I THINK IS PRETTY POSSIBLE TOOO


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## gogbot

faithfulguy said:


> You must be kidding me, 0.5 meter is very very big and not even stealthy at all. I belive f-35 is 0.001 and f-22 is 0.0001, and a F-15SE is 0.01. 0.5 is the stealthiness of a Rafael. a 4+ generation fighter.
> 
> T-50 still needs a lot of work. It won't be ready for a while. I think for the sake of mother Russia, they should at least make it enough to be as stealthy as an F-35.



And your answer



ptldM3 said:


> As far as i know the 0.5 RCS estimate was from a blogger who supposedly heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who worked at Sukhoi, that same blogger has been wrong before. As far a i know Sukhoi has said nothing about the true RCS. In the Russian news they said this:
> 
> "In the air it's almost impossible to acquire. If the SU-30, for instance, is seen on radar as a *4 to 5 meter *metalic object the fifth genneration aircraft will be 40 times smaller."
> 
> The RCS of the SU-30 is *20 sq *metres not *4 or 5 metres*...if that's true the real RCS would be much smaller than 0.5.



Done.


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## ptldM3

EmO GiRl said:


> It is indeed *TOOO* big...
> 
> 0.5 is quite impossible
> 
> Rafale & EF have way better RCS
> 
> couple it with this, PAK-FA is indeed a dead meat for Raptor...



The Rafale has a RCS of 0.5 and it has almost zero stealth charicteristics, single vertical stabalizer, round intakes, round nose, and no RAM?

The Pakfa, on the other hand has stealth geometry and RAM, so it is theoretically impossible for it to have a RCS of 0.5. 

If someone missed it:



This is what a formor Lockheed Martin employee that worked on the F-22 has to say about the Pakfa:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1525980&postcount=952

And this should explain away some rumors.

As far as i know the 0.5 RCS estimate was from a *blogger* who supposedly heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who worked at Sukhoi, that same blogger has been wrong before. As far a i know Sukhoi has said nothing about the true RCS. In the Russian news they said this:

"In the air it's almost impossible to acquire. If the SU-30, for instance, is seen on radar as a *4 to 5 meter *metalic object the fifth genneration aircraft will be *40 times smaller*."

The RCS of the SU-30 is *20 sq metres not 4 or 5 metres*...if that's true the real RCS would be much smaller than 0.5.


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## DaRk WaVe

ptldM3 said:


> T*he Rafale has a RCS of 0.5 and it has almost zero stealth charicteristics, single vertical stabalizer, round intakes, round nose, and no RAM?*
> 
> The Pakfa, on the other hand has stealth geometry and RAM, so it is theoretically impossible for it to have a RCS of 0.5.



First of all i am only negating his point that RCS is 0.5, 0.5 for PAK-FA is impossible 

but i cannot hear any thing against Rafale 

they didnt achieved such a low RCS without any head banging




> Stealth was a major priority for the Rafale. This led to designing the fuselage in the way it is, which has produced Rafale's characteristic shape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M-88 IR signature recution
> 
> 
> ​


----------



## ptldM3

EmO GiRl said:


> First of all i am only negating his point that RCS is 0.5, 0.5 for PAK-FA is impossible
> 
> but i cannot hear any thing against Rafale
> 
> they didnt achieved such a low RCS without any head banging



Oh...carry on then


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## Supersonic26

EmO GiRl said:


> First of all i am only negating his point that RCS is 0.5, 0.5 for PAK-FA is impossible
> 
> but i cannot hear any thing against Rafale
> 
> they didnt achieved such a low RCS without any head banging



Emo ji aapney F-22 raptor aur PAK-FA ko fly kiya hai? what are you trying to prove ji? Are u saying india and russia are nuts to spend around 20 billion dollars on PAK-FA? LoL. emo ji PAK-FA build to kill a jet fighter which americans aint happy with (F-22 raptor). PAK-FA humare sukhoi-30MKI ka B*ap hai ji. Now for a moment lets agree with u that PAK-FA not went through stealth test before flying (funny isn't it?) and PAK-FA dead meat for Raptor. Now tell me emo ji kya india going war against america with our dead meat PAK-FA? lol. Or do you think america giving pakistan F-22 raptor to counter a dead meat Pak-fa? Aapkey pass kya hai Pak-fa ke against? Do u have answer for PAK-FA ji?


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## manglasiva

Supersonic26 said:


> Emo ji aapney F-22 raptor aur PAK-FA ko fly kiya hai? ?



China will soon clone a F22 and will jointly develop with PAF..so we need a killer

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## ptldM3

Lets keep this tread on topic, we don't need any F-22 and F-35 compairisons, or worthless links, and we don't need people's (trolls) opinions regarding the Pakfa RCS, after all a Lockheed Martin employee that has worked on the F-22 said:

*"Pak-FA = metal marble (once they take all the flight test instrumentation off and apply the RAM coatings). Yes, IMO, its that good in the forward sector."*

Unless someone else is a Lockheed Martin employee that has built stealth aircraft, i suggest people just keep their pointless compents to themself afterall Sukhoi and Lockheed Martin engineers know more than any of us. End of story.

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## Supersonic26

manglasiva said:


> China will soon clone a F22 and will jointly develop with PAF..so we need a killer



OoODi BABA clone orignial ko maardega lol. Buddy i doubt china will copy raptor. After PAK-FA took towards sky ab humare PAK-FA ki ijjat ko khatra hai lol. i hope they dont clone humara PAK-FA lol. Anyway clonning doesn't make them 5th gen or superior then original. They need engine, next generation QUALITY weapons, radar etc etc. Clonning jet fighter is easy but adding it quality stuffs are not piece of cake buddy. Check india's MCA design and also check new stealth LCH attack helicopters. India already making stealth. Am glad that other countrys helping india with avionics too. Have u seen how much happy was the pilot of PAK-FA? that shows importance of PAK-FA. Our 5th gen jet fighter will be beast and the beauty within next 5 to 7years buddy.


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## gowthamraj

anybody tell me how to post pictures


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## Tiger Awan

ptldM3 said:


> Lets keep this tread on topic, we don't need any F-22 and F-35 compairisons, or worthless links, and we don't need people's (trolls) opinions regarding the Pakfa RCS, after all a Lockheed Martin employee that has worked on the F-22 said:
> 
> *"Pak-FA = metal marble (once they take all the flight test instrumentation off and apply the RAM coatings). Yes, IMO, its that good in the forward sector."*
> 
> Unless someone else is a Lockheed Martin employee that has built stealth aircraft, i suggest people just keep their pointless compents to themself afterall Sukhoi and Lockheed Martin engineers know more than any of us. End of story.




Funny isn't it?

When some members commented on photos and said it lacks stealth characteristic all Indian and Russian members said you cant guess its capabilities by pictures.

Now how this *Lockheed Martin employee* came to know that
Pak-FA = metal marble


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## gowthamraj

its my favorite shot

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## Red Dwarf

Why we Indians say we built this plane or we are partner in this. As far as i know. This prototype is 100&#37; Russian..


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## Supersonic26

ptldM3 said:


> Lets keep this tread on topic, we don't need any F-22 and F-35 compairisons, or worthless links, and we don't need people's (trolls) opinions regarding the Pakfa RCS, after all a Lockheed Martin employee that has worked on the F-22 said:
> 
> *"Pak-FA = metal marble (once they take all the flight test instrumentation off and apply the RAM coatings). Yes, IMO, its that good in the forward sector."*
> 
> Unless someone else is a Lockheed Martin employee that has built stealth aircraft, i suggest people just keep their pointless compents to themself afterall Sukhoi and Lockheed Martin engineers know more than any of us. End of story.



110percent i agree with u buddy. People calling mr gambit an expert (who flown f-22 and Pak-fa). All i know after reading his most comments in every thread is that he 'anti indian expert' lol. Buddy i agree with you we should stick with PAK-FA discussion.


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## ptldM3

Tiger Awan said:


> Funny isn't it?
> 
> When some members commented on photos and said it lacks stealth characteristic all Indian and Russian members said you cant guess its capabilities by pictures.
> 
> Now how this *Lockheed Martin employee* came to know that
> Pak-FA = metal marble




I'll take his word on it considering he worked on the F-22. 99.9999 percent of people that criticize the Pakfa have no idea what they are talking about. Like i say Sukhoi knows more about stealth than a bunch of forum warriors.

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## gowthamraj

Red Dwarf said:


> Why we Indians say we built this plane or we are partner in this. As far as i know. This prototype is 100&#37; Russian..



i agree apart from money, there is nothing from our side..
but dont to forget the sukhoi generals comments that "for further improvement of the aircraft indian partner is essential because they have advance line in compsite material manufacturing..."


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## manglasiva

gowthamraj said:


> anybody tell me how to post pictures



host it in some pic hosting site..then post the link here...


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## gowthamraj

manglasiva said:


> host it in some pic hosting site..then post the link here...



ya i did sir .. last page i post one beautiful picture ...


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## marcos98

KICKA$$ PIC OF PAKFA.........

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## marcos98

YELLOW LINE CLEARLY IS boom refueling PROBE, cool!

also sergei bogdan - the next yuri gagarin

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## DaRk WaVe

Supersonic26 said:


> Emo ji aapney F-22 raptor aur PAK-FA ko fly kiya hai? what are you trying to prove ji? Are u saying india and russia are nuts to spend around 20 billion dollars on PAK-FA? LoL. emo ji PAK-FA build to kill a jet fighter which americans aint happy with (F-22 raptor). PAK-FA humare sukhoi-30MKI ka B*ap hai ji. Now for a moment lets agree with u that PAK-FA not went through stealth test before flying (funny isn't it?) and PAK-FA dead meat for Raptor. Now tell me emo ji kya india going war against america with our dead meat PAK-FA? lol. Or do you think america giving pakistan F-22 raptor to counter a dead meat Pak-fa? Aapkey pass kya hai Pak-fa ke against? Do u have answer for PAK-FA ji?



first of all stop using this 'roman hindi' 
secondly i was just negating the point which said that PAK-FA has RCS of 0.5 m^2, even EF & Rafale has a better RCS
don't know why are you on Fire
& i never dreamed of Raptor in PAF 
what ever PAK-FA is, it no doubt a big problem for us
try to link the posts


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## Naradmuni

> first of all stop using this 'roman hindi'



Please advice chinese posters as well who are posting stuff in chinese. I am fed up of seeing coackroaches on my screen.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...nese-economy-grow-10-2010-a-6.html#post649661

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## Gabbar

I congratulat all my Indian brothers on this. This bird is going to protect Indian skies for years to come. A great joint project with our biggest ally.

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## gowthamraj

when did next flight takes place?


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## Ultimate Warrior

The First ever T-50 pilot







Photos: Suman Sharma/MAKC, Zhukhovsky.

*Indian Defense writer and blogger Suman Sharma in Russia with first ever T-50 Pilot*

Chindits--Indian armed forces

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## r0ck

Self Delete


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## paritosh

faithfulguy said:


> But as PAKFA is not ready yet and F15SE could be ready anytime, its safe to say that F-15 SE would have more stealth then PAKFA. So until PAKFA characteristic and components are put together, its too early to talk about PAKFA. Russia (USSR) is very sensible about not bragging too much. But I guess this is a "joint" military project between India and Russia and so Russia is require to make this a major news for the sake for Indian bragging. Is bragging even written into the contract.



yeah right...that was the most technical thing you could have said to highlight how stealthy the f-15 is against the PAK-FA...

p.s:somebody is bragging already...is that me?

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## Dark Angel

EmO GiRl said:


> first of all stop using this 'roman hindi'
> secondly i was just negating the point which said that PAK-FA has *RCS of 0.5 m^2, even EF & Rafale has a better RCS*
> don't know why are you on Fire
> & i never dreamed of Raptor in PAF
> what ever PAK-FA is, it no doubt a big problem for us
> try to link the posts





Sorry but thats wrong dear......

According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces. The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson, although no official value is available. This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square metres, the 0.5 square metres RCS of the Sukhoi PAK FA, the 20 square metres of the Su-30MKI and the American F-117 of 0.025 square metres


Here is a link Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DaRk WaVe

Can't you read what i wrote before it  



> first of all stop using this 'roman hindi'
> secondly *i was just negating the point which said that PAK-FA has RCS of 0.5 m^2*, even EF & Rafale has a better RCS
> don't know why are you on Fire
> & i never dreamed of Raptor in PAF
> what ever PAK-FA is, it no doubt a big problem for us
> try to link the posts



RCS of Rafale is 0.75 m^2 

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Articles/PG/PGSA.htm


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## Dark Angel

EmO GiRl said:


> Can't you read what i wrote before it
> 
> 
> 
> RCS of Rafale is 0.75 m^2
> 
> Situation Awareness




Hey i am really sorry i just got up and got glued to my laptop so sorry


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## bali

...deleted..


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## bali

apart from speculations ,nobody knows what the correct rcs of pakfa is,. certainly its not 0.5 it is lower than that, but it isnt upto f22 level either , whose real rcs figures are also speculated. . such things are always kept secret


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## Myth_buster_1

ptldM3 said:


> Nice comback...for someone that just got owned. Nothing else to add about the F-22/F-15 intakes? I think my work here is done.When pined to the wall change the subject ^^^ as for your comment about F-15 being more stealth then the Pakfa, that just proves you're a troll.


I had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that i am talking to a donkey brain human. Can you even comprehend that i was comparing F-22 intake with T-50 and F-15 with Su-27?! are you seriously that dumb?
You dont own someone by saying i owned you! You at least try to win the argument.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> The Engine development is taking place and the final shape of the engine outlets are still to be finalized, in that sense it is too early to predict the IR signatures



Stop kidding yourself that this and that is not finished! The engine nozzle on production variant PAK-FA is finished and here is the video of it. their are absolutely no plans on modifying anything on the engine as it will take time if their are other things to modify as well and both air force cant afford if they want to meet the dead line.


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## Supersonic26

EmO GiRl said:


> first of all stop using this 'roman hindi'
> secondly i was just negating the point which said that PAK-FA has RCS of 0.5 m^2, even EF & Rafale has a better RCS
> don't know why are you on Fire
> & i never dreamed of Raptor in PAF
> what ever PAK-FA is, it no doubt a big problem for us
> try to link the posts



Emo ji please dont take me seriously. Am just like you all are. A 'forum warrior' lol. Emo ji am bit new in the 'RCS' section. Is RCS 0.75 lower or RCS 0.5 is lower? Am bit confused. Will it go this way 0.75, 0.70, 0.65 etc etc to 0.5 and then 0.0 (imposible) -0.5 lol or it should be this way that RCS 0.75 is lower then 0.5? My brain going round and round as if i done a death role or cobra menue in sukhoi-30MKI ji. Please do explain. PAK-FA stealth jetfighter who has 20 tyms less RCS then that of sukhoi-30MKI. If rafale (fat beast) has Less RCS compared to PAK-FA then Typhoon (slim shape beast) must be stealth 5th gen jet fighter lol. Thank you.


----------



## saurabh

Growler said:


> Stop kidding yourself that this and that is not finished! The engine nozzle on production variant PAK-FA is finished and here is the video of it. their are absolutely no plans on modifying anything on the engine as it will take time if their are other things to modify as well and both air force cant afford if they want to meet the dead line.
> YouTube - First 5th generation multiaxis nozzle



Being the member of Sukhoi and a design expert in Lockheed, you must be knowing a lot about PAKFA.

With your great wisdom, will you enlighten us how much is the impact on rcs by yet to integrated engine? Also how much infrared signature will they give? Considering we haven't even seen them flying so you could say more.
We will also be grateful to you if you provide us with links saying no further modification on engine part will be done.

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## Myth_buster_1

Ruag said:


> Say whatever you want, but Pakistani claims of destroying entire Indian MiG-21 fleet was proved false when Wing Commander Wollen led an entire squadron of IAF MiG-21 flypast two days after the Pathankot raids.
> 
> The entire world knows about it. Too bad that the Pakistanis still continue to believe the 1965 war-time propaganda.
> 
> Anyways, continue living in 1965. No wonder, you guys are ahead of us in so many aspects.





Dark Angel said:


> *Dont post blindly *
> 
> 
> 4 September 1965 IAF MiG-21F-13 shoots downs PAF F-86E
> 
> 4 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL "C1111" FltLt Manbir Singh shoots downs PAF Sabre F.6
> 
> 6 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Samar Bikram Shah shoots downs PAF F-6
> 
> 6 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL shoots PAF CC-130
> 
> 12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL "C750" FltLt Bharat Bhushan Soni shoots PAF F-104A
> 
> 12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Niraj Kukreja shoots PAF F-104A
> 
> 12 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL SqnLdr Iqbal Singh Bindra shoots PAF F-104A
> 
> 16 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL FltLt Samar Bikram Shah shoots PAF F-6
> 
> 17 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL A. K. Datta shoots PAF F-104A
> 
> 17 December 1971 IAF MiG-21FL Samar Bikram Shah shoots PAF F-104A (damaged)
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21#Indo-Pakistan_1971_war



Talking about propaganda this kid decides to take cover in worlds largest propaganda website the wikipeeedia and thinks he has got the facts. Do watch the videos and the British reporter is asking those saber pilots "the IAF has claimed to have shot you guys down before" and the pilots laughed and made fun of indians that they are pathological liars who will do anything just to satisfy their dirty indian ego with false claims. 
tell you what... show me a single picture of IAF Mig-21 FL13 after pathok attack. and kid... i am only talking about 65 war not 71 where a 3rd generation fighter faced 2nd generation sabers and F-6s.


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## marcos98

Growler said:


> Stop kidding yourself that this and that is not finished! The engine nozzle on production variant PAK-FA is finished and here is the video of it. their are absolutely no plans on modifying anything on the engine as it will take time if their are other things to modify as well and both air force cant afford if they want to meet the dead line.


Defunct Humanity: PAK FA first flight

excerpt- 

"The nozzles was designed round, as expected, which provoked speculations about problem in IR and radar stealthness from rear hemisphere.* However, the program chief has explained early, that IR and radar observability reduction was achieved not worse than on American 5th gen. fighters, but in different way.* The 1st prototype has no TVSs but it's certainly formulated as a part of the program and already developed by 'Klim


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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> Being the member of Sukhoi and a design expert in Lockheed, you must be knowing a lot about PAKFA.
> 
> With your great wisdom, will you enlighten us how much is the impact on rcs by yet to integrated engine? Also how much infrared signature will they give? Considering we haven't even seen them flying so you could say more.
> We will also be grateful to you if you provide us with links saying no further modification on engine part will be done.



here is your answer. 




gambit said:


> The way the exhausts are designed, rear aspect IR and RCS signatures will doubled or even tripled from front. Not good. Dead meat for the Raptor.
> 
> Exhaust nozzle convergent coupled with throttle setting control thrust. Everything on a body create its own RCS signature and contribute to the overall RCS value of the body. The convergent-divergent mechanisms of an afterburning turbojet engine are no exceptions, if anything, they are the major RCS creators of the rear aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take a look at 'iris' style exhaust convergent-divergent nozzle above. It is called 'iris' because the mechanisms works the same way the human eye controls its pupil opening. Look at all the 'feathers' and the gaps between them. Those are corner reflectors and I have explained plenty enough here on how dangerous corner reflectors are to designs intending to be radar LO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at the F-22 exhaust convergent-divergent mechanisms above. They are simpler in designs and because there are less mechanical 'doodads' such as actuators and 'feathers' the F-22 exhausts are far less RCS contributors than exhausts with the 'iris' convergent-divergent exhausts.
> 
> The downside to the F-22's exhaust mechanisms is that it restrict thrust vectoring to 2D, whereas with the 'iris' style, the exhaust TV can be 3D, provided there are sufficient clearance between nozzles, which lead us to the controversial subject of design philosophy, specifically engine placements. Wide area engine placements have advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I have never been a proponent of wide area engine placements. The argument here is that for any reason, from bird ingestion to battle damage to 'Acts of God', in the event of a catastrophic engine failure that result in an engine explosion, the other engine would be somewhat protected. Given the fact that the airframe area between the engines are not empty but contain fuel, wirings and assorted mechanical items, an exploding engine will create enough collateral damage to render the aircraft unflyable anyway.
> 
> In the event of a non-exploding engine failure, widely spaced engines will create asymmetric thrust that can send the aircraft into a flat spin, which can be nonrecoverable. The combination here is speed, altitude, attitude and how far apart are the engines that the resulting asymmetric thrust will send the aircraft into a flat spin. An extreme example of asymmetric thrust is the C-17A Engine-Out Compensation System (EOCS) software upgrade to the aircraft's FLCS during take-offs and landings. For EOCS, the critical engine is the most outboard one on each wing if its companion outboard engine on the other wing fail. The software upgrade, upon sensing engine failure, would command a rudder deflection to compensate for the inevitable yaw (lateral) movement by the aircraft.
> 
> AOPA Online: AOPA Pilot's "An Invitation to Fly" - Beyond the Private
> 
> 
> Fighter aircrafts with multiple engines do not have as wide engine placements as multi-engined transports, nevertheless, asymmetric thrust is still a potential problem for pilot training. The F-14 and F-15 have wider engine placement schemes than the F-18. The wider the engine placements the higher of some energy loss when there is thrust. Any mechanical engineer will tell you that it is better to have thrust as much inline with the main longitudinal axis of the body as possible. It is necessary that thrust be in parallel, but the closer to the central axis, the greater the concentration of their combined thrust to the longitudinal axis, the more energy efficient the TV system. The downside is that the closer the engines are together, there will so little room for movement that 2D vectoring is the only option.
> 
> 3D vectoring require more complex flight control laws -- *IF* -- the desire is to automate the thrust vectoring. Automation require the removal of some of the decision making process from the pilot, which is *NOT* always a positive. The US have done extensive testing on the integration of propulsion into flight control laws, of which the C-17A EOCS is one deployed example, here is the history...
> 
> Propulsion Control of Airplanes
> 
> 
> NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Propulsion Controlled Aircraft
> 
> Essentially...If we have engine failures, there is still a good chance of recovery and survival via flight control surfaces, aka 'dead stick' landing as UA 232 demonstrated...
> 
> Deadstick landing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> But what if the aircraft loses some of its flight control surfaces, that is where PCA enabled flight control laws can help. Thrust vectoring works on similar principles as PCA but it is about the incorporation of *DELIBERATE* off-axis thrust not to recover a damaged aircraft but to radically enhanced its flight regimes. So asymmetric thrust can be exploited to good ends.
> 
> The PAK-FA's wide engine placements allows 3D vectoring, however, we do not know the extent of TV automation. Is the pilot allowed individual nozzle vector controls? Now that would remove a lot of mathematical complexity from the flight control laws but would transfer the burden to the pilot. After all, what good in having a feature if you do not know how or allowed to use that feature? Remember UA 232 above where the pilot had to manipulate the throttles himself. This mystery alone begs us to wonder how does Sukhoi view the pilot. Is he a 'killer' first and 'flyer' second? Or would the TV training and operation be so intensive that he would be so busy working the nozzles that he can lose situational awareness and lose the fight?
> 
> 3D vectoring is best when there is so little aerodynamic forces to exploit that in order to change aircraft attitude, an alternate force is required, this would be at very low airspeed, so low that even if there is any advantage to be gained over the F-22, the F-22 would have to be either battle damaged or at so low an altitude that the F-22 pilot has next to no room to maneuver. The Soviets/Russians do not have a good history of avionics and ergonomics. We knew that even before the Soviet Union collapsed.
> 
> Do not be gullible and impressed by that airshow 'cobra' maneuver. It was done with extraordinary airmanship acquired through years of flight experience and natural abilities. That is not how we want our air forces. We want an efficient combination of high flying capabilities and human instincts now. The American philosophy is -- make the aircraft do the flying as much as possible so the pilot can be a 'killer' primary and 'flyer' secondary. When the aircraft exceed maneuvering requirements just through aerodynamic exploitations alone, TV capability is gravy and having 2D only allow some pilot control and some automation without overly complex flight control laws. This is like creating one hundred above average airborne killers in one year instead of ten excellent ones in two years.
> 
> 
> Raptor is a classification of bird...
> 
> Bird of prey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Dead meat for the Raptor, baby...


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> here is your answer.



He just described the underpowered engines without TVC used in test flights. I am asking about the actual engines that are developed but not yet integrated. If you read all the post carefully, you will find that actual engines were tested separately, on 21 Jan, on a su27. They were not used on the T50 we saw in the videos.
This is what I am trying to tell you, you have yet to see the production variant. Till than, its all speculation.


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## Myth_buster_1

marcos98 said:


> Defunct Humanity: PAK FA first flight
> 
> excerpt-
> 
> "The nozzles was designed round, as expected, which provoked speculations about problem in IR and radar stealthness from rear hemisphere.* However, the program chief has explained early, that IR and radar observability reduction was achieved not worse than on American 5th gen. fighters, but in different way.* The 1st prototype has no TVSs but it's certainly formulated as a part of the program and already developed by 'Klim



Do you understand that your source is russian? of course they are going to make claims like that. the funny thing is... its even evident to a blind person that F-35 and F-22 engines clearly have a huge huge advantage in IR reduction over Pak-FA. Even Rafale and EF have reduced IR then Pak-FA.


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> Do you understand that your source is russian? of course they are going to make claims like that. the funny thing is... its even evident to a blind person that F-35 and F-22 engines clearly have a huge huge advantage in IR reduction over Pak-FA. Even Rafale and EF have reduced IR then Pak-FA.



If you say so...
We understand that you go after every plane, chasing it with a ir sensor and radar to gather intel about their signatures...


Let me ask you a question. What makes a plane emit in IR region. Ok, I know hot gases from engine.

But even F22/35 burn fuel, releasing hot gases. So, how do they reduce the IR signature??


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## Supersonic26

Yeah baby PAK-FA dead meat (or dead F-22 raptor meat which PAK-FA would love to Eat lol)
VetVoice:: Will Congress Put the F-22 Above America?
useless F-22 Raptor? Even airforce dont want this 5th gen jet fighter. Wonder why.
YouTube - f-22 raptor crash landing
crash landing.


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## gogbot

Supersonic26 said:


> Yeah baby PAK-FA dead meat (or dead F-22 raptor meat which PAK-FA would love to Eat lol)
> VetVoice:: Will Congress Put the F-22 Above America?
> useless F-22 Raptor? Even airforce dont want this 5th gen jet fighter. Wonder why.
> YouTube - f-22 raptor crash landing
> crash landing.



Don't be petty, That way the YF-22 anyway. and that was one incident

F-22 is super expensive costing more than 300 million a piece, and is a ***** to maintain and operate, That's why the USAF cant afford to have more.

But the F-22 does the job it was designed to do perfectly, Its problems associate with the way it is built and maintained.

You should have tremendous respect for the F-22 it is a magnificent machine.

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## DaRk WaVe

Growler said:


> Talking about propaganda this kid decides to take cover in worlds largest propaganda website the wikipeeedia and thinks he has got the facts. Do watch the videos and the British reporter is asking those saber pilots "the IAF has claimed to have shot you guys down before" and the pilots laughed and made fun of indians that they are pathological liars who will do anything just to satisfy their dirty indian ego with false claims.
> tell you what... show me a single picture of IAF Mig-21 FL13 after pathok attack. and kid... i am only talking about 65 war not 71 where a 3rd generation fighter faced 2nd generation sabers and F-6s.



No need to talk to 'em they won't accept it 
even a F-86 brought down a MiG-21 but why would they accept it


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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> He just described the underpowered engines without TVC used in test flights. I am asking about the actual engines that are developed but not yet integrated. If you read all the post carefully, you will find that actual engines were tested separately, on 21 Jan, on a su27. They were not used on the T50 we saw in the videos.
> This is what I am trying to tell you, you have yet to see the production variant. Till than, its all speculation.



My point is.. PAK-FA engineers may be able to reduce the IR signature but not to a extent to be par with F-35 let alone F-22. F-35 has only one engine compared to two PAk-FA and thats 50% less IR signature right their compared to Pak-fa.


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## DeathGod

Growler said:


> My point is.. PAK-FA engineers may be able to reduce the IR signature but not to a extent to be par with F-35 let alone F-22. F-35 has only one engine compared to two PAk-FA and thats 50% less IR signature right their compared to Pak-fa.



1.My point is .. Just by looking at the nozzle one cant comment about the IR signatures. There are more than one ways to achieve an objective & one should repect it.

2."Today Asia bleeds and the peace is galling at the hands of India which is scrupulously using RAW to satisfy its designs of expansionism & the dream of becoming super power." --Today the whole world bleeds and Islam is being hurt at the hands of Pakistan which is scrupulously using ISI , non-state actors and terrorists to satisfy its design of expansionism and the dream that whole world will be pakistan one day.

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## Myth_buster_1

Without even accounting stealth technology we can determine that since the size of F-35 is 2/3 of Pak-FA F-35 is more stealthy then PAK-FA.

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## hindustan

as we will get indian version pak-fa in 2015-17 

what option should be best for mmrca 

can we also go for f 35 for our navy we have to provide more power to navy 
as USA is ready to sale 

what will be number of su 30 mki in near future 

how many lca tejas will be in near future 

i can see a good future of avation industry


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## Myth_buster_1

DeathGod said:


> 1.My point is .. Just by looking at the nozzle one cant comment about the IR signatures. There are more than one ways to achieve an objective & one should repect it.
> 
> 2."Today Asia bleeds and the peace is galling at the hands of India which is scrupulously using RAW to satisfy its designs of expansionism & the dream of becoming super power." --Today the whole world bleeds and Islam is being hurt at the hands of Pakistan which is scrupulously using ISI , non-state actors and terrorists to satisfy its design of expansionism and the dream that whole world will be pakistan one day.



1. Picture is worth 1000 words. and yes you can tell a lot by just pictures. or are you trying to tell yes PAK-FA IR signature is less then F-35? lol joker.
2. looks like my sig just gave your brain a seizure! haha


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> My point is.. PAK-FA engineers may be able to reduce the IR signature but not to a extent to be par with F-35 let alone F-22. F-35 has only one engine compared to two PAk-FA and thats 50% less IR signature right their compared to Pak-fa.



Its not that simple that 1 engine has 50% IR signature than 2 engines.
I do agree that its doubtful that it will be as stealthy as raptor or even JSF, but its stealthy. And that is enough at present for both Russia, which will be looking for broader market and India, which will gain huge qualitative age over its opponents.


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> Without even accounting stealth technology we can determine that since the size of F-35 is 2/3 of Pak-FA F-35 is more stealthy then PAK-FA.



F35 is smaller than F22, yet has bigger rcs. Mig 21 is much smaller than all three, but yet bigger rcs. Size matters, technology matter much more.

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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> F35 is smaller than F22, yet has bigger rcs. Mig 21 is much smaller than all three, but yet bigger rcs. Size matters, technology matter much more.



Growler who are you talking too

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## Myth_buster_1

hindustan said:


> as we will get indian version pak-fa in 2015-17
> 
> what option should be best for mmrca
> 
> can we also go for f 35 for our navy we have to provide more power to navy
> as USA is ready to sale
> 
> what will be number of su 30 mki in near future
> 
> how many lca tejas will be in near future
> 
> i can see a good future of avation industry



WOW so no plan for naval version of PAK-FA for IN? Why already lose hope with PAK-FA?


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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> F35 is smaller than F22, yet has bigger rcs. Mig 21 is much smaller than all three, but yet bigger rcs. Size matters, technology matter much more.



 seriously your stupidity has left me speechless...
NO COMMENTS.


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## DeathGod

Growler said:


> 1. Picture is worth 1000 words. and yes you can tell a lot by just pictures. or are you trying to tell yes PAK-FA IR signature is less then F-35? lol joker.
> 2. looks like my sig just gave your brain a seizure! haha



1. A picture is worth 10,000 words but what if there is more to something then just a picture. ( The thing exists and can achieve its goals in more than one ways). Maybe you are so obsessed by downgrading other's achievements that your brain gets a seizure.

2. I took a cheap shot at your signature and was hoping you would reply in a manner that you did. The good thing about existence of people like you is that people like you are the very reason why pakistan will never outshine India . The hatred (maybe your textbooks teach you that) in you acts as a deterence against logic. Have seen loads of your posts here that justify the same.

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## DaRk WaVe




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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> Growler who are you talking too



And you point being?? All I am saying is F22 is big in size (than f35) yet it has very small rcs. Its not about size, but technology


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## Mahakaya

So does the F-15 infact at around 25m2. The F-15SE is at around 1m2. So I am guessing the "smart skin" (if there is any) will definitely be able to get it down considerably or let me rephrase that "CUTTING DOWN ON RCS IS NOT IMMPOSSIBLE"


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## hindustan

Growler said:


> WOW so no plan for naval version of PAK-FA for IN? Why already lose hope with PAK-FA?



hey growler 

i am talking about the offer from usa for indian navy 



it was just fisrt flight and you know plane is so good 

lets wait for future


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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> And you point being?? All I am saying is F22 is big in size (than f35) yet it has very small rcs. Its not about size, but technology



so what am I & Growler saying? 

the under belly of PAK-FA is almost an exact copy of Flanker, but after all its a prototype


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## Mahakaya

Tiger Awan said:


> O thanks God. At last we have decided to *WAIT*
> 
> So what is your idea? How much time will be taken to develop some deadly stealth features in this project.



Oh Man!!! "Serious Stealth"  - cmon does it not already have serious "STEALTH" - Its a prototype - though Putin only refers to the engine and armament - I dont think many structural changes will happen but definitely it should reduce the IR Signature i.e. incorporating the new engine should hopefully get the detection down further!


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> Growler who are you talking too





Growler said:


> seriously your stupidity has left me speechless...
> NO COMMENTS.



May I ask you two to carefully read my post again. I am saying f22 is best in the three.

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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> so what am I & Growler saying?
> 
> the under belly of PAK-FA is almost an exact copy of Flanker, but after all its a prototype



Oh, I thought you miss read my post.

I was just trying to counter Growlers remarks. Go through his post, you will feel like he is saying that it is not an stealth AC, just an utter failure.

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## Mahakaya

EmO GiRl said:


> so what am I & Growler saying?
> 
> the under belly of PAK-FA is almost an exact copy of Flanker, but after all its a prototype



hmmm....so exact copy huh? really - will be great if you could please point out the similarities and is it a disadvantage at all?? - eager to receive yours or growler's response?

p.s. - have been reading ur posts for quite sometime - URs seem to be rational still - but growler's are uh!!! quite similar to his name

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## DaRk WaVe

Mahakaya said:


> hmmm....so exact copy huh? really - will be great if you could please point out the similarities and is it a disadvantage at all?? - eager to receive yours or growler's response?
> 
> p.s. - have been reading ur posts for quite sometime - URs seem to be rational still - but growler's are uh!!! quite similar to his name



my point remains under belly is almost that of a flanker & please avoid personal attacks

So to add a few things. First off the current nose and cockpit from what I understand are straight from an Su-27. I.e. the final ones will look different. This should also put the size of the fighter a bit more in scale. Thirdly, it wasn't even flying with it's production engines. It was flying with 117 engines. The actual engines for it are still underdevelopment, but as Growler said pictures are speaking...

​


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## Mahakaya

Growler said:


> Without even accounting stealth technology we can determine that since the size of F-35 is 2/3 of Pak-FA F-35 is more stealthy then PAK-FA.



HMMMMM - HOW SMART! WAT A CONCLUSION! very very good!! please give growler a big fat GOLDEN STAR for his contribution here - U forgot that the F-22 is bigger than the F-35 but yet has a lower RCS and more stealthy than the F-35 - its just a case of sour grapes buddy! go home think through your comments and then write else i will keep tethering your logic like this - not once but times again!

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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> And you point being?? All I am saying is F22 is big in size (than f35) yet it has very small rcs. Its not about size, but technology



You stupid INDIAN! and you think PAK-FA has better technology then F-35?! You did not even comprehend my logic which was PAK-FA bigger size and to add something worse its intakes are conventional (which is not a stealth characteristic) increasing its RCS!


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## Mahakaya

EmO GiRl said:


> my point remains under belly is almost that of a flanker & please avoid personal attacks
> 
> So to add a few things. First off the current nose and cockpit from what I understand are straight from an Su-27. I.e. the final ones will look different. This should also put the size of the fighter a bit more in scale. Thirdly, it wasn't even flying with it's production engines. It was flying with 117 engines. The actual engines for it are still underdevelopment, but as Growler said pictures are speaking...
> 
> ​



Please explain that to GROWLER as well - as he is going on bashing someone's achievement without any concrete proofs or links to back up his claims - its quite sad to see a rational person taking sides like that!

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## paritosh

EmO GiRl said:


> so what am I & Growler saying?
> 
> the* under belly of PAK-FA is almost an exact copy of Flanker*, but after all its a prototype



not true at all...zoom all the pics you have...and notice the plan forming done at the air-intakes...the engine is very close to the fuselage...the T-50 *DOES *come from the basic su-27 design but has all the right stealth traits... 
we can discuss this further if you are not satisfied.

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## AVIAN

Growler said:


> You stupid INDIAN! and you think PAK-FA has better technology then F-35?! You did not even comprehend my logic which was PAK-FA bigger size and to add something worse its intakes are conventional (which is not a stealth characteristic) increasing its RCS!



Calling Indians a stupid won't make your own comments any less stupid. Feel free to come out with some technical defination to prove your point of being intakes as unstealthy.

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## Myth_buster_1

Mahakaya said:


> HMMMMM - HOW SMART! WAT A CONCLUSION! very very good!! please give growler a big fat GOLDEN STAR for his contribution here - U forgot that the F-22 is bigger than the F-35 but yet has a lower RCS and more stealthy than the F-35 - its just a case of sour grapes buddy! go home think through your comments and then write else i will keep tethering your logic like this - not once but times again!



seriously i had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that indians have no brain to comprehend anything! 
I clearly said if we "EXCLUDE" stealth technology F-35 has less RCS comprehend to PAK-FA. and yes genius F-22 is by far the most stealthiest fighter in the world. And now these fanboys are claiming PAK-FA has better stealth technology then F-35 despite being almost twice the size of F-35 and with some un stealthy characteristics such as the intake design.


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## Mahakaya

Growler said:


> You stupid INDIAN! and you think PAK-FA has better technology then F-35?! You did not even comprehend my logic which was PAK-FA bigger size and to add something worse its intakes are conventional (which is not a stealth characteristic) increasing its RCS!



Watch your mouth you in**** idiot - do you have any concrete proof that the conventional intakes add to the RCS or rather explain how it affects the RCS! - point it out with concept not yada yada!!

Well to me the F-117 looks a lot more stealthly than the F-22 cos of the lines that plane has - but it is actually less stealthy than the F-22 hmmm - now I believe that you really cant say anything so quit talking nonsense and back your claims - else Ill tether your logic again - just like I said in my last post and I am repeating it here!

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## Myth_buster_1

AVIAN said:


> Calling Indians a stupid won't make your own comments any less stupid. Feel free to come out with some technical defination to prove your point of being intakes as unstealthy.



I are not qualified to be proved anything!


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## saurabh

Growler said:


> seriously i had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that indians have no brain to comprehend anything!
> I clearly said if* we "EXCLUDE" stealth technology F-35 has less RCS comprehend to PAK-FA*. and yes genius F-22 is by far the most stealthiest fighter in the world. And now these fanboys are claiming PAK-FA has better stealth technology then F-35 despite being almost twice the size of F-35 and with some un stealthy characteristics such as the intake design.





You cant exclude stealth like this. Its not just ram coating. The whole plane has to be designed in the manner to keep low observability.
Fine, you want to believe f series is better, I accept. I dont know about PAKFA, and we all have faith in US. So I agree. Happy now?


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## Mahakaya

Growler said:


> seriously i had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that indians have no brain to comprehend anything!
> I clearly said if we "EXCLUDE" stealth technology F-35 has less RCS comprehend to PAK-FA. and yes genius F-22 is by far the most stealthiest fighter in the world. And now these fanboys are claiming PAK-FA has better stealth technology then F-35 despite being almost twice the size of F-35 and with some un stealthy characteristics such as the intake design.



point taken but its condradictory to what you say - size has nothing to do with the stealthiness of the plane - exclude that then yes probably - but then again - the original F-15 is smaller than the SU-27/30 yet has a bigger RCS at 25m2 a diff of 5m2. so again size can make a difference but then again can you exlain the conundrum here?? - you forgot the emphasis on design - and what do you mean keep the Stealth out??? how do you keep it out from a plane that is built on that platform with the airframe based on such dynamics!! cmon man come up with something more meaningful than just blabbering for no reason at all!

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## Tiger Awan

Mahakaya said:


> Oh Man!!! "Serious Stealth"  - cmon does it not already have serious "STEALTH" - Its a prototype - though Putin only refers to the engine and armament - I dont think many structural changes will happen but definitely it should reduce the IR Signature i.e. incorporating the new engine should hopefully get the detection down further!



Hmmmmm

So you think incorporating an engine and armament while keeping plane stealthy is easy?

I do not say that that Russians cant design a stealthy plane but this prototype was just meant to give all those air-force message that have got Mig-29 that donot think of buying F-35. Replace it with PAK FA.


Listen to the commentries of Russian analyst. They say it will compete International market due to cost effectiveness.

PAK FA is not as early as you think.

Got my point?


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> my point remains under belly is almost that of a flanker & please avoid personal attacks
> 
> So to add a few things. First off the* current nose and cockpit* from what I understand are straight from an Su-27. I.e. the final ones will look different. This should also put the size of the fighter a bit more in scale. Thirdly, it wasn't even flying with it's production engines. It was flying with 117 engines. The actual engines for it are still underdevelopment, but as Growler said pictures are speaking...
> 
> ​




If you look closely, nose is not round, rather has edges, just like the f35/22. About picture speaking, he, you or me, or anyone else, non is qualified enough to listen to the pictures and say, its not stealthy.

Yes, I agree, than I cant say its stealthy either. But than I have to take words of the makers. They are experienced AC makers. They say they make a low observability AC, up to fifth gen level. Cant we trust them this much?


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## DaRk WaVe

paritosh said:


> not true at all...zoom all the pics you have...and notice the plan forming done at the air-intakes...the engine is very close to the fuselage...the T-50 *DOES *come from the basic su-27 design but has all the right stealth traits...
> we can discuss this further if you are not satisfied.



well i have posted the picture & moreover i have used the word 'almost' 
as for intakes can you people see the holes just below the tail fins, Sancho pointed it out 





The horizontal bend/non-allignment can be seen clearly from this angle.
There are huge debates on other forums on how much of the Engine compressor blades are hidden or showing through the Air-inlets.Would like you to tell us about it 

​


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## Mahakaya

Tiger Awan said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> So you think incorporating an engine and armament while keeping plane stealthy is easy?
> 
> I do not say that that Russians cant design a stealthy plane but this prototype was just meant to give all those air-force message that have got Mig-29 that donot think of buying F-35. Replace it with PAK FA.
> 
> 
> Listen to the commentries of Russian analyst. They say it will compete International market due to cost effectiveness.
> 
> PAK FA is not as early as you think.
> 
> Got my point?



I am not speculating on the time of its release! I dont know and I will refrain from saying that it will or it will not enter service on time! lets just WAIT and see how things go on! - I dont think we really need this jet before 2017 - by 2017 we should have atleast 60-80 Tejas (48 to be delivered by 2012-13, should have about 60 MMRCA and more of the new MKIs which will go through the MLU in 2014. So anytime till 2017 we should be placed fine when it comes to replacing the depleting fleet, but yeah if we end up with 250 of these beasts by 2025 time frame then it should be pretty good!


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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> If you look closely, nose is not round, rather has edges, just like the f35/22. About picture speaking, he, you or me, or anyone else, non is qualified enough to listen to the pictures and say, its not stealthy.
> 
> Yes, I agree, than I cant say its stealthy either. But than I have to take words of the makers. They are experienced AC makers. *They say they make a low observability AC, up to fifth gen level. Cant we trust them this much?*



they have to make it *stealth*
* low observability* of an Air craft is what we see in late 4th gen air crafts


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## AVIAN

Growler said:


> seriously i had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that indians have no brain to comprehend anything!
> I clearly said if we "EXCLUDE" stealth technology F-35 has less RCS comprehend to PAK-FA. and yes genius F-22 is by far the most stealthiest fighter in the world. And now these fanboys are claiming PAK-FA has better stealth technology then F-35 despite being almost twice the size of F-35 and with some un stealthy characteristics such as the intake design.



If the size is the only matter which makes PAK-FA unstealthy, then certainly USAF was backstabbing US by using much bigger F-117 's and B-2 as a stealth bomber.


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## Mahakaya

EmO GiRl said:


> well i have posted the picture & moreover i have used the word 'almost'
> as for intakes can you people see the holes just below the tail fins, Sancho pointed it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



wats ur point? if you are going to say it does not add to the stealthiness - please back up with relevant research paper or a qualified opinion - else please refrain!


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## Mahakaya

EmO GiRl said:


> they have to make it *stealth*
> * low observability* of an Air craft is what we see in late 4th gen air crafts



Please name the ones with 0.5m2 RCS or lower - 4th gen or even 4++ gen planes else again please dont just POINT OUT WITHOUT ANY BACK UP!


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## paritosh

Growler said:


> seriously i had my doughs but now i am fully convinced that indians have no brain to comprehend anything!
> I clearly said if we "EXCLUDE" stealth technology F-35 has less RCS comprehend to PAK-FA. and yes genius F-22 is by far the most stealthiest fighter in the world. And now these fanboys are claiming PAK-FA has better stealth technology then F-35 despite being almost twice the size of F-35 and with some un stealthy characteristics such as the intake design.



your _doughs_ are unfounded.
you shouldn't talk of size alone as even in the 60 and 70s when the worl on stealth and radars hadn't reached the maturity of this day and age...subjects were there to prove the dependence of rcs on size to be fallacious 
the British Avro Vulcan due to it's shape had a very low RCS and at certain angles used to evade detection as well...and it was a bomber!
the Tupolev-95 (nato-"bear") otoh used to give a very large RCS becuase of it's very large rotors...
and more than the lenght of the aircraft...the area of cross-section is of more relevance...

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## DaRk WaVe

Mahakaya said:


> wats ur point? if you are going to say it does not add to the stealthiness - please back up with relevant research paper or a qualified opinion - else please refrain!



*FOR GOD SAKE WHEN DID I SAID THAT* 

I loose


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## syntax_error

EmO GiRl said:


> my point remains under belly is almost that of a flanker & please avoid personal attacks
> 
> So to add a few things. First off the current nose and cockpit from what I understand are straight from an Su-27. I.e. the final ones will look different. This should also put the size of the fighter a bit more in scale. Thirdly, it wasn't even flying with it's production engines. It was flying with 117 engines. The actual engines for it are still underdevelopment, but as Growler said pictures are speaking...
> 
> ​



Hi 
i am a total novice when it when it comes to this ... but i thought id ask anywayz ....in the t-50 in the picture ...there is a height diff bettween the engine intakes and the main fuselage so if that difference is removed by increaseing the height of the fuselage on the lowerside... it will also have a flat belly like the f-22 ...im not good with photoshop so cant do it .... if some1 can pls do it .. i think it would be interesting to see that ...
if this question is foolish pls ignore ... but i would be really gla if any1 can answer this for me ..


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> they have to make it *stealth*
> *low observability of an Air craft is what we see in late 4th gen air crafts*



Stealth is term used to describe to laymen.
The correct term is Low observability.
An AC is called stealthy if it has extremely low observable.

The reflected signals from a stealth AC are so weak that for large distances radars neglect them. Only when very close, some calculable signals reach the radar. This is what LO means.


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## DaRk WaVe

Mahakaya said:


> Please name the ones with 0.5m2 RCS or lower - 4th gen or even 4++ gen planes else again please dont just POINT OUT WITHOUT ANY BACK UP!



I don't believe in theory of 0.5 m^2, its impossible for 5th gen to have 0.5 m^2 RCS

any ways here you go


> *RCS ​*
> The base radar formula used is (RCS1/RCS2)^0.25. So the F-16C reduced RCS is 1.2 m2, standard fighter is 5 m2. (1.2/5)^0.25 = 0.69. Therefore the F-16C can be detected at 69&#37; of radar range as compared with a standard fighter.
> B-52 Bomber 100 m2 bomber range x1
> 
> F-4, A-10 25 m2 bomber x 0.71, fighter x 1.5
> 
> B-1B Bomber 10 m2 bomber x 0.56, fighter x 1.19
> 
> Tornado 8 m2 fighter x 1.12
> 
> Generic fighter 5 m2 fighter range x 1
> 
> MiG-21 3 m2 fighter x 0.88
> 
> F-16C/18C w. reduced RCS 1.2 m2 fighter x 0.7
> 
> *F-18E, Rafale 0.75 m2 fighter x 0.62*
> 
> *Eurofighter 0.25-0.75 m2 fighter x 0.47-0.62*
> 
> Exocet, Harpoon missile 0.1 m2 fighter x 0.38
> 
> JSF (&#8216;golf ball sized&#8217 0.005 m2 fighter x 0.18
> 
> F-117, B-2, F-22 0.0001 m2 fighter x 0.07
> 
> F-117, B-2 F-22 also given as 0.01-0.001 m2, &#8216;marble sized&#8217; or fighter x 0.12-0.21
> 
> F-22 RCS requirement was 1/1000th the F-15. This has probably be exceeded by a large margin. Even if the F-15 RCS is a large 25 m2, the F-22 is 0.025 m2 worst case (fighter x 0.26).
> 
> As can be seen &#8216;stealthy&#8217; aircraft aim to reduce opposition situation awareness by decreasing detection range.



Situation Awareness

click on link & scroll down & read under heading of *RCS*



> Stealth is term used to describe to laymen. What is stealth? Do you think f22 is invisible to radar? Nope. Just the reflected signals so weak that for large distances radars neglect them. Only when very close, some calculable signals reach the radar. This is what LO means.



 when i said Raptor is invisible lets leave this side


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## paritosh

> There are huge debates on other forums on how much of the Engine compressor blades are hidden or showing through the Air-inlets.Would like you to tell us about it



dude...do you know about the usage of baffle protection in the air-intakes on this plane from any of the other forums?


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## DaRk WaVe

paritosh said:


> dude...do you know about the usage of baffle protection in the air-intakes on this plane from any of the other forums?



Please explain to this girl  
would like to know
thanks


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## saurabh

syntax_error said:


> Hi
> i am a total novice when it when it comes to this ... but i thought id ask anywayz ....in the t-50 in the picture ...there is a height diff bettween the engine intakes and the main fuselage so if that difference is removed by increaseing the height of the fuselage on the lowerside... it will also have a flat belly like the f-22 ...im not good with photoshop so cant do it .... if some1 can pls do it .. i think it would be interesting to see that ...
> if this question is foolish pls ignore ... but i would be really gla if any1 can answer this for me ..



I am not expert, but I will try. The gape between the fuselage is so hyped because it is a general belief that it will create corners, and this corners reflect radio signals back to radar. I am no expert, so I cant counter that. But the ones siting in sukhoi design office are. There may be three reasons for it not having a flat-belly.
1. The designers found no problem with that, they have managed low reflections with that design.
2. It wasn't aerodynamically, or due to some other reasons possible for them to make it flat belly.
3. Its just a prototype for first flight. Later on, there may be many changes.

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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> they have to make it *stealth*
> * low observability* of an Air craft is what we see in late 4th gen air crafts





EmO GiRl said:


> when i said Raptor is invisible lets leave this side



No you didn't say that. I just wanted to make clear to you that stealth just means very low observability. In fact low observability is the correct term.


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## paritosh

EmO GiRl said:


> Please explain to this girl
> would like to know
> thanks



ohh I though i quoted some one else...
nevermind that...
the idea is to hide the turbine blades as much as possible as they are a big source of microwave reflection thereby giving a large RCS....so baffles are installed in the air-intakes to hide the rotating turbine blades from coming into view of the radar...

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## saurabh

paritosh said:


> ohh I though i quoted some one else...
> nevermind that...
> the idea is to hide the turbine blades as much as possible as they are a big source of microwave reflection thereby giving a large RCS....so baffles are installed in the air-intakes to hide the rotating turbine blades from coming into view of the radar...



Would be helpful if you could post a pic.


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## Ruag

Growler said:


> Talking about propaganda this kid decides to take cover in worlds largest propaganda website the wikipeeedia and thinks he has got the facts. Do watch the videos and the British reporter is asking those saber pilots "the IAF has claimed to have shot you guys down before" and the pilots laughed and made fun of indians that they are pathological liars who will do anything just to satisfy their dirty indian ego with false claims.
> tell you what... show me a single picture of IAF Mig-21 FL13 after pathok attack. and kid... i am only talking about 65 war not 71 where a 3rd generation fighter faced 2nd generation sabers and F-6s.


 
 It seems that your English vocabulary is limited to "pathological liars". 

And what wikipedia? There was no wikipedia source given. And look who is calling others "pathological liars". 

Give me one neutral source which says that the PAF destroyed all IAF MiGs during Pathankot raids.

And why only talk about Sabers and F-6s? The MiG-21s shot down several F-104s in 1971. 

Air Force History

And now don't claim that the MiG-21 was 3rd generation and the F-104 was 2nd generation. Read "Rolling thunder" By Ivan Rendall (ISBN: 9780684857800). He classifies F-104, MiG-21 and Mirage III in the same category. I can give numerous more sources because it seems people here are used to making up stories.

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## Mahakaya

EmO GiRl said:


> I don't believe in theory of 0.5 m^2, its impossible for 5th gen to have 0.5 m^2 RCS
> 
> any ways here you go
> 
> 
> Situation Awareness
> 
> click on link & scroll down & read under heading of *RCS*
> 
> 
> 
> when i said Raptor is invisible lets leave this side



Alright point taken - now we are talking - so also read the article in the link (get to right after the part you copied and pasted) - I am not sure how valid is that document but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But will need to dig down more to get info on this the F-18 SE or the Typhoon or even the rafale.


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## DaRk WaVe

Mahakaya said:


> Alright point taken - now we are talking - so also read the article in the link (get to right after the part you copied and pasted) - I am not sure how valid is that document but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But will need to dig down more to get info on this the F-18 SE or the Typhoon or even the rafale.



 
I really don't need any one's 'doubt benefit'...

as for Rafale the idea was to make not a true 5th Gen but a discreet fighter with ability to surpass enemy air defenses same is the idea about EF 

here is some relevant info with some links



> The Rafale EW suite, known as Spectra, is one of the most powerful systems installed on a fighter aircraft and is intimately associated with the unique approach to stealth and survivability designed into the Rafale. Dassault executives describe the Rafale as discreet rather than being stealthy in the sense of a F-22. To avoid detection, it combines avionics, tactics, and reduced radar reflectivity with some techniques that have not been directly revealed and are apparently unique.
> 
> The first element of discretion is that Spectra's receiver system and the FSO help detect and track targets without using radar. Spectra incorporates a radio-frequency (RF) detection system, a missile-approach warning sensor, and a laser-warning system and provides full 360-degrees coverage. The RF detection subsystem uses prominent square-section antennas, mounted on the lower corners of the engine inlets and in the rear of the fin-top pod, covering 120 degrees each. The receiver antennas use interferometric techniques to measure a signal's angle of arrival within less than 1 degree and are designed so that they do not have a large radar-cross-section (RCS) contribution.
> 
> Rafale, Dassault-Breguet



Powered by Google Docs

Stealth Warplanes - Google Books

PS: sorry for such wired inks 



> M-88 IR signature reduction
> 
> ​


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## marcos98

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.vesti.ru/videos%3Fvid%3D257560&rurl=translate.google.co.in&usg=ALkJrhhB5i4mXHWNxnNadY2EuJbObDs7XQ

NEXT FLIGHT- MONDAY
(paralay forum)

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## hindustan

Now it is clear, that in its airframe design the fighter is closer related to American F-23 prototype, than F-22 or JSF, but with bigger internal payload bay. However, it has unrepeatable impress of Sukhoi design house, clearly looking as a thoroughbred Su-linage. According to the most reliable estimations, T-50 has 10 internal and 2 additional external hardpoints on the wings (the 'mystery' triangle thickening under the wings). With this great payload capability and much space for the fuel T-50 can became a true military 'workhorse' of the future battlefield!


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## Myth_buster_1

Mahakaya said:


> So does the F-15 infact at around 25m2. The F-15SE is at around 1m2. So I am guessing the "smart skin" (if there is any) will definitely be able to get it down considerably or let me rephrase that "CUTTING DOWN ON RCS IS NOT IMMPOSSIBLE"



typical indian. stop being laughing stock of this forum... F-15 with a 25m2 RCS?


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## Myth_buster_1

DeathGod said:


> 1. A picture is worth 10,000 words but what if there is more to something then just a picture. ( The thing exists and can achieve its goals in more than one ways). Maybe you are so obsessed by downgrading other's achievements that your brain gets a seizure.


Look i am only giving you free lessons and you are welcome to disagree with be and live in your small narrow minded indian bubble. Can you simply agree or am i just going to much against your indian ego which can only be satisfied with fake claims? Those two huge @ss engines are so prominent to the nake eye the IRST will simply track it! And thats what the picture tells! on the other hand i am not even claiming that PAK-FA has cr@ppy avionics or radar because I do not know their specs or anything! Now do you understand!


> 2. I took a cheap shot at your signature and was hoping you would reply in a manner that you did. The good thing about existence of people like you is that people like you are the very reason why pakistan will never outshine India . The hatred (maybe your textbooks teach you that) in you acts as a deterence against logic. Have seen loads of your posts here that justify the same.


 And i am very happy to know that such people exsist in india in large numbers because you are the guys who are going to end this outshine India honeymoon. 
hatred in our textbook?  kindly turn on your TV and tune it to any indian news channel... thats what you call hatred. 
Btw you are not even contributing anything to the topic. so next time you come up with your upbringing street junk talk i am simply gonna ignore it.


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## SSGPA1

kashith said:


> And it is Gyaan not Giyaan..Should have paid attention at school...Oh right...You must have been busy learning about Jihad....



Don't giv two sweet sh*ts how a word in hindi is spelled. Proudly learned about Jihad that it is compulsory when attacked.



kashith said:


> Well what can I say..you are one omniscient one.As Dave's company's motto is "THERE IS NO OFF POSITION ON GENIUS SWITCH!!!!!Dude by abusing Indians you are not gonna get into Heaven for your fair share of virgins!!!!



sad my comments further impacted the state of your mind 
I didn't abused Indians, read my post again. I think some Muslim in India has kicked your butt really hard therefore there is so much reference to Jihad 



kashith said:


> True very true..but F-22 is way way superior to JSF...Actually F-22 is an overkill.At the time of its launch there was not a single plane which can challange it,and the situation is not gonna change in the next 15 years..Gambit once posted the amount of maintenance required for a F-22.And the result is the most awesome plane ever..
> These clients are opting for JSF because US congress has banned the sale of F-22 to any other country,Not even Israel which is as you pakistanis love to quote,lap adorement of US.
> 
> Once again..F-15 and F-16 analogy.F-15 was the Galactus,really awesome but expensive to maintain..so F-16 ,the silver surfer was created.F-22 cannot be sold to any other country due to Congress ban.Seriously start reading some good newspapers like New York Times or Washington Post.



There is a difference in reading and actually supporting the program. I ahve supported both of these projects a couple years ago while working for a mjor defence company so just shut your mouth because you and many like you read stuff and gladly claim to become champions!!

F-22 is great and JSF is greater. 




kashith said:


> Do you know how many platform USAF has?? or Ruskies have or for that PLAAF has????IF India is trying to do the same it is not efficient??Just because your country does not has different aircraft it becomes inefficient for other countries?Awesome reasoning.Gem of logical coherence.....



You are a complete a**! India is not a superpower like the countries which you have mentioned in your post. India is on its way to become a regional power only but even that is a loooong way!

My point has been throughout that India can spend the resources much better and get better result.



kashith said:


> Junk???If this is junk then what is JF-17???Give respect where it is due.....



Once you have finished your daily dose of cow's _gober_ then look at the specs of JF-17 and F-16 and see the similarities. 

JF-17 gave PAF the desired result with less than $1 billion in total investment and PAK-FA couldn't give the desired result with billions of dollar in investment and delays so it is a junk at this stage.


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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> And you point being?? All I am saying is F22 is big in size (than f35) yet it has very small rcs. Its not about size, but technology



Yes it is about SIZE! You can not just simply apply RAM coat or super shukti smart skin on a truck and expect it to be as stealthy as somthing that was designed to be a 100% stealth object! All we are saying that PAK-FA is still a stealthy fighter and a very capable but it lacks the stealth capability which F-35 has and it is very apparent on just the pictures.


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## Myth_buster_1

saurabh said:


> Oh, I thought you miss read my post.
> 
> I was just trying to counter Growlers remarks. Go through his post, you will feel like he is saying that it is not an stealth AC, just an utter failure.



I did not say anywhere PAK-FA is not a stealth plane! all i am saying that PAK-FA is not as stealthy as F-35! I do not know anything about its technical specs so i can not comment on it and i probably think its going to be pretty much close to F-35.


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## kashith

Growler said:


> typical indian. stop being laughing stock of this forum... F-15 with a 25m2 RCS?



alright alright enough horsing around,
Enough berating the PAKFA.India is not gonna fight US,so even if it is not as good as Raptor doesnt matter.All we have to worry about is JF-17.
.China is a country i respect for the maturity it shows and it will definitely not engage in a war with India .Who will want to spend billions in a war when China is already galloping ahead on its long march of Progress.
Now answer these 4 questions honestly
Does Pakistan has F-15SE?
Does Pakistan has a thrust vectoring aircraft?
Does Pakistan has a 5th Gen aircraft in its shopping list?
Why are you foaming at mouth and all worked up at an aircraft launch?
Take a chill pill

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## SSGPA1

Ultimate Warrior said:


> The First ever T-50 pilot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos: Suman Sharma/MAKC, Zhukhovsky.
> 
> *Indian Defense writer and blogger Suman Sharma in Russia with first ever T-50 Pilot*
> 
> Chindits--Indian armed forces



Funny that Suman is wearing an Indian flag along with a diff flag (it is not russian)


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## DaRk WaVe

SSGPA1 said:


> Funny that Suman is wearing an Indian flag along with a diff flag (it is not russian)



wow, u looked so closely


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## SSGPA1

hindustan said:


> as we will get indian version pak-fa in 2015-17
> 
> what option should be best for mmrca
> 
> can we also go for f 35 for our navy we have to provide more power to navy
> as USA is ready to sale
> 
> what will be number of su 30 mki in near future
> 
> how many lca tejas will be in near future
> 
> i can see a good future of avation industry



Yep future is bright indeed as Indians are investing so much money ro support this industry around the globe 

Russians have just fooled you and your brothers are fighting hard on this forum to accept the embarrasing fact.

Don't count too much on PAK-FA and hope that you will get the 5th gen fighter from the USA some time in the future afetr the MRCA deal.


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## saurabh

SSGPA1 said:


> Funny that Suman is wearing an Indian flag along with a diff flag (it is not russian)



Eyes right on the target !!
Its an US flag
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S2PgaZV969I/AAAAAAAABxA/QiDyughM_Cc/s1600/DSC00384.JPG


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## SSGPA1

EmO GiRl said:


> wow, u looked so closely



my close friends call me _shikra_


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## Myth_buster_1

Mahakaya said:


> Watch your mouth you in**** idiot - do you have any concrete proof that the conventional intakes add to the RCS or rather explain how it affects the RCS! - point it out with concept not yada yada!!
> 
> Well to me the F-117 looks a lot more stealthly than the F-22 cos of the lines that plane has - but it is actually less stealthy than the F-22 hmmm - now I believe that you really cant say anything so quit talking nonsense and back your claims - else Ill tether your logic again - just like I said in my last post and I am repeating it here!



I will shove concrete proof you yours but then again you will ask for more.  typical indian behavior. 
F-117 is the oldest stealth technology operational! so lets not compare it to any of todays stealth technology. 
The biggest factor to PAK-FA lesser stealth characteristic is the un smooth geometry found on the belly which F-35 and F-22 have clearly avoided.


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## DeathGod

Growler said:


> 1.Look i am only giving you free lessons and you are welcome to disagree with be and live in *your small narrow minded indian bubble. *Can you simply agree or am i just going to much against your *indian ego *which can only be satisfied with fake claims? Those two huge @ss engines are so prominent to the nake eye the IRST will simply track it! And thats what the picture tells! on the other hand i am not even claiming that PAK-FA has cr@ppy avionics or radar because I do not know their specs or anything! Now do you understand!
> 
> 2.And i am very happy to know that such people exsist in india in large numbers because you are the guys who are going to end this outshine India honeymoon.
> hatred in our textbook?  kindly turn on your TV and tune it to any indian news channel... thats what you call hatred.
> Btw you are not even contributing anything to the topic. so next time you come up with your upbringing street junk talk i am simply gonna ignore it and take you as 4.* a street barking dog*.



1.Take this lesson from me : The moment one starts swearing and sterotyping the same time the counterpatry should understand the shallowness of the person. 

Growler your head is buried so deep in the sand that I guess no one can help you. First your stereotyping of India shows what kind of mentality you have. Dont know how you live with your concious 


I am just stating a premise that one can't be confirm that PAK-FA will have huge IR signature by just looking at the nozzles because there can be other ways to reduce it. Is it too hard for you to even consider it? 

2. Well I dont have a television at home, so I wont know but the truth is that TV channels are the culprits in India as well as in Pakistan and their penetration is not like textbooks which students have to memorize. ( In a certain 8th class history book its written : Hindus can never be trusted , this is an excerpt in a documentary by Pervez hoodhbhoy , show any parallel in Indian education system and I will concede)

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## DaRk WaVe

now ain't the difference clear even Rafale has better intakes 

http://www.deagel.com/library/Rafale-Ms-air-intake_m02007062400167.aspx

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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> now ain't the difference clear even *Rafale has better intakes for IR signature reduction...
> *
> Rafale M's air intake



Intakes have nothing to do with IR reduction, rather blade reflection.




paritosh said:


> ohh I though i quoted some one else...
> nevermind that...
> t*he idea is to hide the turbine blades as much as possible* as they are a big source of microwave reflection thereby giving a large RCS....so *baffles are installed in the air-intakes* to hide the rotating turbine blades from coming into view of the radar...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

DeathGod said:


> 1.Take this lesson from me : The moment one starts swearing and sterotyping the same time the counterpatry should understand the shallowness of the person.
> 
> Growler your head is buried so deep in the sand that I guess no one can help you. First your stereotyping of India shows what kind of mentality you have. Dont know how you live with your concious
> 
> 3.You mud slingling pig go for a brain transplant.




1. wow that sounds like you.
2. thanks for letting us know that you have a brain of a PIG!


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## DaRk WaVe

saurabh said:


> And I thought this was explained!!



My Goodness 
indeed intake has nothing to do with IR but Grwoler was talking about something else 

I give up.



Growler said:


> I will shove concrete proof you yours but then again you will ask for more.  typical indian behavior.
> F-117 is the oldest stealth technology operational! so lets not compare it to any of todays stealth technology.
> *The biggest factor to PAK-FA lesser stealth characteristic is the un smooth geometry found on the belly which F-35 and F-22 have clearly avoided. *


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## saurabh

EmO GiRl said:


> My Goodness



I was just talking about engine intake. I don't know about the belly thing.

And I will be grateful if you or growler, *exactly* explain the role of curved belly in radio wave reflection. What kind of angles it is having, and how those angles/corners increase reflection back to radar?


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## DeathGod

Growler said:


> 1. wow that sounds like you.
> 2. thanks for letting us know that you have a brain of a PIG!



@
Ulta Chor Kotwal Ko Daante

Bade ho jaa Fache.. college main BS kam hoti hai kya jo yahan pe fellane main laga rehta hai

@topic

I would like to understand that even if an objects RCS in 0.5 m2 can it be successfully painted(resolved) by the other aircraft. Also how effective will a firing solution be for an aircraft with such small RCS (if it matters at all). For eg. will the active radar of AIM-120 be able to resolve the aircraft all the time?


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## PAFAce

I don't understand all the animosity here. Any true competitor should always admire and acknowledge the opponents' victories. Russia (and by extension, India) are so far winning this round with the Flanker and MiG-29 series. Pakistan and China are catching up with the J-10B and the JF-17 series, so the round is not over by any standards. With the T-50, Russia and India are looking ahead to the next round, confident that a head start would lead to victory. It's not like Pakistan or China will sit idle and let the Russians and Indians run away with it, we'll come out with our own answers sooner or later.

My point being, my Pakistani brothers and sisters must acknowledge that the Russians have played this card well. T-50 looks fantastic. Obviously there will be those who will let their imaginations run away (smart skin, comparable to F-22 and whatnot), but it's far better than anything expected in the near future in this part of the World. Let's not bicker pointlessly, call the aircraft ugly, insult Russian tech or be sore losers in general. Instead, acknowledge, regroup and attack, that's how this stuff always works.

*Edit*
By the way, I read recently that, on average, you must reduce the apparent cross sectional area by 4 units to achieve an RCS reduction of 1 unit. Why am I saying this? Because I think those who claim a so-called "stealthy" Su-30MKI will be invisible to Pakistani radars deserve to be laughed at. How are you going to make the Su-30MKI look 4 times smaller than it currently does? A best, the Su-30MKI Stealth will be _slightly_ more visible on radar than the original Lightweight Fighter, the F-16.

And in any case, the fact that a "Stealth" program is required for the Su-30MKI despite the MCA and the FGFA programs proves what we have been saying all along; despite all it's technology, the Su-30MKI lights up radars like a Christmas tree, which is its biggest Achilles heel.

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## Awesome

DeathGod said:


> 1.Take this lesson from me : The moment one starts swearing and sterotyping the same time the counterpatry should understand the shallowness of the person.
> 
> Growler your head is buried so deep in the sand that I guess no one can help you. First your stereotyping of India shows what kind of mentality you have. Dont know how you live with your concious
> 
> 
> I am just stating a premise that one can't be confirm that PAK-FA will have huge IR signature by just looking at the nozzles because there can be other ways to reduce it. Is it too hard for you to even consider it?
> 
> 2. Well I dont have a television at home, so I wont know but the truth is that TV channels are the culprits in India as well as in Pakistan and their penetration is not like textbooks which students have to memorize. ( In a certain 8th class history book its written : Hindus can never be trusted , this is an excerpt in a documentary by Pervez hoodhbhoy , show any parallel in Indian education system and I will concede)


Really? What are you two, 10 year old to start mud slinging names like dogs and pigs against each other?


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## saurabh

PAFAce said:


> I don't understand all the animosity here. Any true competitor should always admire and acknowledge the opponents' victories. Russia (and by extension, India) are so far winning this round with the Flanker and MiG-29 series. Pakistan and China are catching up with the J-10B and the JF-17 series, so the round is not over by any standards. With the T-50, Russia and India are looking ahead to the next round, confident that a head start would lead to victory. It's not like Pakistan or China will sit idle and let the Russians and Indians run away with it, we'll come out with our own answers sooner or later.
> 
> My point being, my Pakistani brothers and sisters must acknowledge that the Russians have played this card well. T-50 looks fantastic. Obviously there will be those who will let their imaginations run away (smart skin, comparable to F-22 and whatnot), but it's far better than anything expected in the near future in this part of the World. Let's not bicker pointlessly, call the aircraft ugly, insult Russian tech or be sore losers in general. Instead, acknowledge, regroup and attack, that's how this stuff always works.
> 
> Edit
> By the way, I read recently that, on average, you must reduce the apparent cross sectional area by 4 units to achieve an RCS reduction of 1 unit. Why am I saying this? Because I think those who claim a so-called "stealthy" Su-30MKI will be invisible to Pakistani radars deserve to be laughed at. How are you going to make the Su-30MKI look 4 times smaller than it currently does? A best, the Su-30MKI Stealth will be slightly more visible on radar than the original Lightweight Fighter, the F-16.
> 
> And in any case, the fact that a *"Stealth" program is required for the Su-30MKI despite the MCA and the FGFA programs proves what we have been saying all along; despite all it's technology, the Su-30MKI lights up radars like a Christmas tree, which is its biggest Achilles heel.*



Its fun to dissect the opponents victories and playing my stick is bigger!!
Honestly, after lengthy discussions, sometimes (most times) we get to learn something new. We get to know various perspectives. If we just accept things, no discussions, we miss that.

Besides, you can ignore anybody who claims mki can go stealthy, its just 

Completely agree with you on the bold part

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## marcos98

PAFAce said:


> I don't understand all the animosity here. Any true competitor should always admire and acknowledge the opponents' victories. Russia (and by extension, India) are so far winning this round with the Flanker and MiG-29 series. Pakistan and China are catching up with the J-10B and the JF-17 series, so the round is not over by any standards. With the T-50, Russia and India are looking ahead to the next round, confident that a head start would lead to victory. It's not like Pakistan or China will sit idle and let the Russians and Indians run away with it, we'll come out with our own answers sooner or later.
> 
> My point being, my Pakistani brothers and sisters must acknowledge that the Russians have played this card well. T-50 looks fantastic. Obviously there will be those who will let their imaginations run away (smart skin, comparable to F-22 and whatnot), but it's far better than anything expected in the near future in this part of the World. Let's not bicker pointlessly, call the aircraft ugly, insult Russian tech or be sore losers in general. Instead, acknowledge, regroup and attack, that's how this stuff always works.
> 
> *Edit*
> By the way, you must reduce the cross sectional area by 4 to achieve a RCS of 1. Why am I saying this? Because I think those who claim a so-called "stealthy" Su-30MKI will be the be invisible to Pakistani radars deserve to be laughed at. How are you going to make the Su-30MKI look 4 times smaller than it currently does?



superbly put ....sir.....


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## hembo

Growler said:


> STFU you indian. I did not say anywhere PAK-FA is not a stealth plane! all i am saying that PAK-FA is not as stealthy as F-35! I do not know anything about its technical specs so i can not comment on it and i probably think its going to be pretty much close to F-35.



Your posts contain so much foul and offensive languages so frequently, one wonders how you've been avoiding being banned. I mean seriously in comparison!!

Reported for the nth time.

Also wondering why your posts are not being edited whilst other's are. Any inside contact??

P.S.: Chill out guys, this is just a discussion forum, not a war zone. No need to stoop to low level of insulting each other. It only reflects one's low mentality and lack of civility. Discuss, debate and argue but do it civilly please.


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## Awesome

PAFAce said:


> I don't understand all the animosity here. Any true competitor should always admire and acknowledge the opponents' victories. Russia (and by extension, India) are so far winning this round with the Flanker and MiG-29 series. Pakistan and China are catching up with the J-10B and the JF-17 series, so the round is not over by any standards. With the T-50, Russia and India are looking ahead to the next round, confident that a head start would lead to victory. It's not like Pakistan or China will sit idle and let the Russians and Indians run away with it, we'll come out with our own answers sooner or later.
> 
> My point being, my Pakistani brothers and sisters must acknowledge that the Russians have played this card well. T-50 looks fantastic. Obviously there will be those who will let their imaginations run away (smart skin, comparable to F-22 and whatnot), but it's far better than anything expected in the near future in this part of the World. Let's not bicker pointlessly, call the aircraft ugly, insult Russian tech or be sore losers in general. Instead, acknowledge, regroup and attack, that's how this stuff always works.
> 
> *Edit*
> By the way, I read recently that, on average, you must reduce the apparent cross sectional area by 4 units to achieve an RCS reduction of 1 unit. Why am I saying this? Because I think those who claim a so-called "stealthy" Su-30MKI will be invisible to Pakistani radars deserve to be laughed at. How are you going to make the Su-30MKI look 4 times smaller than it currently does? A best, the Su-30MKI Stealth will be _slightly_ more visible on radar than the original Lightweight Fighter, the F-16.
> 
> And in any case, the fact that a "Stealth" program is required for the Su-30MKI despite the MCA and the FGFA programs proves what we have been saying all along; despite all it's technology, the Su-30MKI lights up radars like a Christmas tree, which is its biggest Achilles heel.


I feel PAK-FA situation is just like the 1998 nuclear tests. India only test nukes and was boasting itself like it was ready to destroy Pakistan.

We had a trick up our sleeves back then we have many more today. The PAK-FA seen in these images is no where near ready it looks like a clunky first prototype, no other spec is seen other than that it has bay doors and some nice thrust vectoring.

I just don't feel its anything that warrants a doomsday scenario for Pakistan. Its a good 10-15 years away, enough time for Pakistan to catch up through China.


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## DaRk WaVe

here found something interesting from another forum, valid points 



> Ok, great thing the thread is reopened. It just shows how easily can a thread be locked by a newcomer.
> 
> First things first. It looks very good. It actually has more resemblance with the YF23 than the F 22. It looks like a YF 23 update of today's times. The crane like neck is a legacy of the flankers and i like it. *its higher nozzles at the back gives it a very nice look from the back when on ground.
> *
> Also those wheels are HUGE!. the double tyres were meant for heavy planes in the flanker/Foxhounds, but why is it neccessary with the PAK FA? Isnt the PAK FA supposed to be a lighter than flanker series plane? Plus by reducing the wheels they can actually save weight and gain more space internally.
> 
> Regarding the engine inlets, it seems direct to the ine of sight of the engines. Is it direct or is there chins inside to block the view from front?
> 
> *ALso from what Ive been reading, this plane still has alot of modifications , so this is not the final look. There is a tender for a sigle frameless glass canopy which i feel is a must.*
> 
> Also stealthy engine nozzles as well as russian method of cooling its exhaust gasses.
> 
> plus all those riveting would/should be covered by the RAM coatings which are said to be made using NANO technology due to its better qualities/ability.
> 
> ALso what indeed is that conformal thing below the wing where the win meets its body? Its seems to small for a missile as someone suggested, but looking at the area beside the engine inlets which is taken by the huge wheels, i dont know where else the side bays can be.



we are indeed jumping too much

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## Chanakyaa

Asim Aquil said:


> I feel PAK-FA situation is just like the 1998 nuclear tests. India only test nukes and was boasting itself like it was ready to destroy Pakistan.



Nuclear Tests and Fighter Jet Prototype Test are Analogous ??
I cant say who was "was boasting itself like it was ready to destroy" but The Kargil was NOT initiated from Indian Side surely implies *it was NOT India trying to prove what u just stated.*



> Following the outbreak of armed fighting, Pakistan sought American help in de-escalating the conflict. *Aide to then President Bill Clinton reported that the US intelligence had imaged Pakistani movements of nuclear weapons to forward deployments *for fear of the Kargil hostilities escalating into a wider conflict between the two countries.


*
Its clear that which party was offensive and relying on nukes.*



> We had a trick up our sleeves back then we have many more today. *The PAK-FA seen in these images is no where near ready it looks like a clunky first prototype, no other spec is seen other than that it has bay doors and some nice thrust vectoring.*



*Who is claiming that they Tested a F22 ??*
Indeed Even ruskies are saying they need 5 Years to mature the final production variant.

But, where is the Fighter for PAF .. can u avail *even a PICTURE ?
*



> I just don't feel its anything that warrants a doomsday scenario for Pakistan. Its a good 10-15 years away, enough time for Pakistan to catch up through China.



If Russia is 15 Years away [ with 3 prototypes in hand ] u have ur self attested that China [ and PAF ] are 20 Years away from the same tech [ even the Name is NOT KNown ]

I am NOT underestimating China, but see the facts :

#1. You prefer Western Avionics over Chinese for JF17 , which means u dont rely on Chinese Tech. If 4th Gen Chinese Tech is NOT YET RELIABLE wht can one deduce about your Preference and Quality of A TOTALLY UNKNOWN , UNTESTED FIFTH GEN TECH ??

#2. The Engines are still Imported from Russia and Chinese dont even have an Engine leave aside a Complete Gen 5 Jet. 
Why talk abt Chinese alone ; Even Ruskies are WORKING on the Final Engine for PAKFA

#3. And even if it does come to reality say by 2020 ..

A. *How many $80-$100 Million Jets will Pakistan afford ? When India is Supplying $5 Billion in Development and then Getting $80 Million Per Plane* 

B. By Numbers : Where does Pakistan stand when PAF financially crippled PAF has cut the projected figure of 250 to 150 , when it costs just 20 million a plane. While India will Induct at least 250 FGFA and 250 MCA . [* Not to Forget 150+ LCA and 150+ MRCA* ]


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> We had a trick up our sleeves back then we have many more today.


China unfortunately does not have 5th gen technology, yet. Maybe in a decade or so. So that trick up your sleeve comment carries no weight.


> The PAK-FA seen in these images is no where near ready it looks like a clunky first prototype, no other spec is seen other than that it has bay doors and some nice thrust vectoring.


'Clunky' you say? Isnt that exactly what is meant by a maiden flight? A prototye flies, hundreds or even thousands of man hours are spent in testing and working out kinks and finally after months or even years a final production version rolls out.
Do you have a pic of your much vaunted, respected, manna from the sky JF-17 prototype or even J-10 or even the J-XX prototypes? Lets see how that compares being "clunky". L.O.L.


> I just don't feel its anything that warrants a doomsday scenario for Pakistan. Its a good 10-15 years away, enough time for Pakistan to catch up through China.


Not a doomsday scenario, but very close nonetheless.
Denying reality is what is hampering Pakistan's development. 10-15 years is a short time considering next gen aircraft development. China has none of that tech - another story if they manage that through industrial/military espionage, a trick they seem to be very efficient at. Even with "acquired" tech China will not be able to roll out a prototype anytime soon (they couldn't even make aircraft engines inspite of possessing RD-33 engines!). So yes, PAF indeed worries itself to a sick stomach! 

Oh btw, what catching up with China are you talking about? How much aircraft tech does Pakistan possess?


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## DeathGod

Asim Aquil said:


> 1.I feel PAK-FA situation is just like the 1998 nuclear tests. India only test nukes and was boasting itself like it was ready to destroy Pakistan.
> 
> We had a trick up our sleeves back then we have many more today.
> 
> 2.The PAK-FA seen in these images is no where near ready it looks like a clunky first prototype, no other spec is seen other than that it has bay doors and some nice thrust vectoring.I just don't feel its anything that warrants a doomsday scenario for Pakistan. Its a good 10-15 years away, enough time for Pakistan to catch up through China.



1. Quite contencious I must say when India has alway had & still has a 'no first-use policy'.

2. Its a prototype & IMO will take fewer than 10 years for sure. 2017 being a likely date for induction. Also PAK-FA will definitely be a problem for Pakistan's defence as even if China helps Pakistan procure its supposedely 5th gen fighter then it will take it atleast 10 yrs (Because no prototype is in sight and the chinese have still to master engine production).Though pakistan will never face a doomsday scenario from India as India will never attack without provocation. Lastly pakistan shouldnt depend on China on a whole sale basis that has been seen from past some time.


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## albwd

XiNiX said:


> Nuclear Tests and Fighter Jet Prototype are Analogous ??



Out of the original context, both of them can be done say in los alomos.


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## Kompromat

EmO GiRl said:


> here found something interesting from another forum, valid points
> 
> 
> 
> we are indeed jumping too much



yes indeed it is just a prototype which just looks pretty much like a poorly photoshopped design .

Same you may find with the prototypes of F16 JF -17 and many other jets which looked way different when became operational.

T50 will look better after furture testing as this test was just a maiden flight and landing.


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## albwd

gubbi said:


> China unfortunately does not have 5th gen technology, yet. Maybe in a decade or so.



Probably, at least China lacks the super-computers to do the calculations (I think China accounced some super computers in 2009). Besides, China probably needs a very good original "guess" of a craft's model to feed the computers. J10 and Su's don't seem to be a good candidate. Then comes the engineering difficulties plus a new flight control. Aviation, missile and radar is probably not that a very big deal.


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## Awesome

XiNiX said:


> Nuclear Tests and Fighter Jet Prototype are Analogous ??


Its a takkar attitude of ours. Its a prototype, its not entering IAF. 



> I cant say who was "was boasting itself like it was ready to destroy" but The Kargil NOT was NOT initiated from Indian Side surely implies *it was NOT India trying to prove what u just stated.*


Kargil was after the tests...



> *
> Its clear that which party was offensive and relying on nukes.*


I still remember clearly reading Indian army comments saying they will capture Lahore in one day 




> But, where is the Fighter for PAF .. can u avail *even a PICTURE ?
> *


Lol, It'll come. You don't have to scare me into producing a picture. 



> If Russia is 15 Years away [ with 3 prototypes in hand ] u have ur self attested that China [ and PAF ] are 20 Years away from the same tech [ even the Name is NOT KNown ]


It doesn't work like that. One of the key things slowing the Chinese down were their lack of ability to produce Engines. That's fast changing and in 15 years, who knows.

I won't be surprised if they pulled another JF-17 out of the hat.

I am NOT underestimating China, but see the facts :



> #1. You prefer Western Avionics over Chinese i for JF17 , which means u dont rely on Chinese Tech. If 4rt Gen Tech is NOT YET RELIABLE wht can one say about your Prferance of A TOTALLY UKNOWN , UNTESTED FIFTH GEN TECH ??


Actually depends on what we need. We need Thrust vectoring, Stealth... Thats something we can rely on the Chinese more than our western friends to supply.



> #2. The Engines are still Imported from Russia and Chinese dont even have an Engine leave aside a Gen 5 Jet.


Thats not quite so true any more... Anyway I'll let you say that for another year.



> #3. And even if it does come to reality say by 2020 ..
> 
> A. *How many will Pakistan afford ?*
> 
> B. When India is Supplying $5 Billion in Development and then Getting $80 Million Per Plane and Ready to Induct at least 250 FGFA and 250 MCA .
> Where does Pakistan stand when PAF financially crippled PAF has cut the projected figure of 250 to 150 , when it costs just 20 million a plane.



We need to maintain defensive capability. The very capability in our hands would be enough to deter the Indians.

The PAK-FA situation is interesting, but not so bad.


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## albwd

EmO GiRl said:


> here found something interesting from another forum, valid points
> 
> 
> 
> we are indeed jumping too much



Also, politically, Russia is "required" to rush this to the scene.


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## dbc

saurabh said:


> 3. Its just a prototype for first flight. Later on, there may be many changes.



The correct answer is 3. PAK-FA is work in progress, I have no doubt that F-35 RCS can be achieved give it time.

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## Chanakyaa

albwd said:


> Probably, at least China lacks the super-computers to do the calculations (I think China accounced some super computers in 2009). Besides, China probably needs a very good original "guess" of a craft's model to feed the computers. J10 and Su's don't seem to be a good candidate. Then comes the engineering difficulties plus a new flight control. Aviation, missile and radar is probably not that a very big deal.



Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.


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## Awesome

EmO GiRl said:


> here found something interesting from another forum, valid points
> 
> 
> 
> we are indeed jumping too much


I'm telling you, its just like 1998. "Hum ek din main Vijay hojayenge". And right now the RUSSIANS have tested it, not even in Indian hands... Sooner or later, the Pakistani/Chinese combo would puncture holes and then sab thanday hojayenge.

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## Awesome

DeathGod said:


> 1. Quite contencious I must say when India has alway had & still has a 'no first-use policy'.
> 
> 2. Its a prototype & IMO will take fewer than 10 years for sure. 2017 being a likely date for induction. Also PAK-FA will definitely be a problem for Pakistan's defence as even if China helps Pakistan procure its supposedely 5th gen fighter then it will take it atleast 10 yrs (Because no prototype is in sight and the chinese have still to master engine production).Though pakistan will never face a doomsday scenario from India as India will never attack without provocation. Lastly pakistan shouldnt depend on China on a whole sale basis that has been seen from past some time.


Of course, even if they had a 1st use policy, we all knew India is blowing up smoke up our assess. Indians have a lot of phook right now, just like back then, they'll huff and puff.


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## albwd

XiNiX said:


> Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
> I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.



Agreed. If they can make J10, they can make anything. How long it's going to take, nobody knows.

Not agreed. The word "match up". I think in 5th gen, you either beat the eagle or inferior to the eagle. They are all computer calculated, there is probably no way for Americans to improve this current 5th, the only thing they can do is to make another one ground up and hope to beat the current, which probably makes no sense. 5th gen machines are virtual, they are not really "designed" per say.


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## saurabh

albwd said:


> Probably, at least China lacks the super-computers to do the calculations (I think China accounced some super computers in 2009). Besides, China probably needs a very good original "guess" of a craft's model to feed the computers. J10 and Su's don't seem to be a good candidate. Then comes the engineering difficulties plus a new flight control. Aviation, missile and radar is probably not that a very big deal.



I dont get this point. China is, considering just designs of airframes, using same kind of planes as russians are. berkut and mig 1.44 are not stealthy, so t50 is first russian attempt to. So why could not they feed a good original guess like russian did?


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## TaimiKhan

XiNiX said:


> Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
> I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.



That is what the Chinese have given the time frame too. 7-8 years to get their 5th Gen aircraft into service. 

Google PLAAF Deputy Commander's interview given on Chinese TV on the 60th anniversary of PRC. 

So if the Deputy Commander says something like this, it means there is something in the background.


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## albwd

saurabh said:


> I dont get this point. China is, considering just designs of airframes, using same kind of planes as russians are. berkut and mig 1.44 are not stealthy, so t50 is first russian attempt to. So why could not they feed a good original guess like russian did?



I am not a plane design expert, based on my knowledge, I think I could come up with an educated guess. China crafts pre-j10 are all from Russia. Obviously Russia seems to have made a politically based decision to go with Sukhoi rather than support Migs(I think they are separate lines of product belong to two companies). My Gut feeling is if they go with Migs, they probably can come up with something challenges the eagle. Sukhoi's capability is in doubt when they couldn't deliver a Russian sub based missiles, as they need to show their prowess in current political environment, so the news of their failure may be true. Unlike Chinese, who doesn't have a political need, so the recently JL-2's launch failure is very much in doubt.

my cent.


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## Chanakyaa

> Kargil was after the tests...



*Yes, was i trying to say something else?
You Tested in 1998 and then Boasted in Kargil !*

This is NOT an assessment by Indians but The American SPY Satellites.


> I still remember clearly reading Indian army comments saying they will capture Lahore in one day



Unlike Pakistan in India, generals Dont Decide what and when is to be done. Our PM is Supreme Power to the Army



> Actually depends on what we need. We need Thrust vectoring, Stealth... Thats something we can rely on the Chinese more than our western friends to supply.



When They Could NOT deliver the COMPLETE Fourth Gen Plane you want me accept that You will be 100&#37; convinced by their UNTESTED Fifth Gen Tech ?

I guess u r NOT going to Get Avionics from France for JXX as well.



> We need to maintain defensive capability. The very capability in our hands would be enough to deter the Indians.



*18 F16s cant Deter 110 MKIs.*
This Ratio will Remain same for the NEXT 25 Years.

You Get J10 - India Gets F18s - Triple The Number
You Get JXX [ IF ] - India Gets 250 FGFA + 250 MCS
You Get JF17 (150 - 250 ) - India Makes 60 Mig 29s SMT Standard and Gets over 150 LCAs with 60+ Mig 29Ks.

*Here is the Truth : *
*
IAF is Way Ahead of PAF [ Though PAF has Very good Pilots and Fighters but the Number Game makes them fell short. ]

India is NOT Competing with Pakistan its China all the way.

To Deter India u First Got to Compete with India Economy that Fuels this Military Procurements.
*

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## Chanakyaa

taimikhan said:


> That is what the Chinese have given the time frame too. 7-8 years to get their 5th Gen aircraft into service.
> 
> Google PLAAF Deputy Commander's interview given on Chinese TV on the 60th anniversary of PRC.
> 
> So if the Deputy Commander says something like this, it means there is something in the background.



Right Taimi, 
Stealth is what they have to work on.
Short Cut : Buy the Russian Tech by Backdoor
Long Route : Invest Heavy Money and Get it Done by Yourself .. Needs Time.

Engine wont be the real issue thy can do it.


But can their FIRST Engine Really deliver Super Cruise ?
Can they Really Make the RCS Low
Can they Make the RADAR performance up to the optimum level ?

These are a few obvious Questions.


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## albwd

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm telling you, its just like 1998. "Hum ek din main Vijay hojayenge". And right now the RUSSIANS have tested it, not even in Indian hands... Sooner or later, the Pakistani/Chinese combo would puncture holes and then sab thanday hojayenge.



I think J10 is probably enough to secure air space. Obviously it doesn't have the global reach as a strategic bomber, though. I think Pak is getting 36 J10s, am I right?


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## saurabh

albwd said:


> I am not a plane design expert, based on my knowledge, I think I could come up with an educated guess. China crafts pre-j10 are all from Russia. Obviously Russia seems to have made a politically based decision to go with Sukhoi rather than support Migs(I think they are separate lines of product belong to two companies). My Gut feeling is if they go with Migs, they probably can come up with something challenges the eagle. Sukhoi's capability is in doubt when they couldn't deliver a Russian sub based missiles, as they need to show their prowess in current political environment, so the news of their failure may be true. Unlike Chinese, who doesn't have a political need, so the recently JL-2's launch failure is very much in doubt.
> 
> my cent.



Wiki extract


> In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union outlined a need for a next-generation aircraft to replace its MiG-29 and Su-27 in frontline service. Two projects were proposed to meet this need, the Sukhoi Su-47 and the Mikoyan Project 1.44. In 2002, Sukhoi was chosen to lead the design for the new combat aircraft. The PAK FA will incorporate technology from both the Su-47 and the MiG 1.44.



They are working on this project since 80's. It was the economic crisis that led to this delay.
I think Russians had extremely long experience in this field. Chinese too were making ACs, but they were never pressed for technological advancement the way Russian were. Chinese had Russian planes in their inventory, till mkk. So only recently did they were so pressed for indigenous tech. Also, R&D in Russia regarding military equipment can be said to be more advanced than Chinese because of such a long history, they were doing research since WW era. That counts for something. It makes me doubt, that china without outside help, can come up with something so fast.


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## DeathGod

Asim Aquil said:


> Of course, even if they had a 1st use policy, we all knew India is blowing up smoke up our assess. Indians have a lot of phook right now, just like back then, they'll huff and puff.



Well if that's true then I dont think India will ever attack or should I say have the guts to attack Pakistan. All our govt. can do if huff and puff. On second thoughts if and when US pulls out of AF then there wont be any need of this forum, because India wont ever attack Pak and hence there wont be any enemy of Pakistan(hopefully). RAW ki toh ISI aisi ki taisi kar hi degi... 

BTW Hawa main udane ke liye pankh chahiye hote hain aur phoonk hone ke liye bhi weapons chahiye.. jo India ne bahut paise de ke khareedein hain.. Sab yehi chahate hain ki woh kabhi use na hoon aur shayad nahi honge.. isliye kam se kam udi toh maarni hi chahiye unke bal pe... warna paise waste ho jayenge..


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## albwd

saurabh said:


> Wiki extract
> 
> 
> They are working on this project since 80's. It was the economic crisis that led to this delay.
> I think Russians had extremely long experience in this field. Chinese too were making ACs, but they were never pressed for technological advancement the way Russian were. Chinese had Russian planes in their inventory, till mkk. So only recently did they were so pressed for indigenous tech. Also, R&D in Russia regarding military equipment can be said to be more advanced than Chinese because of such a long history, they were doing research since WW era. That counts for something. It makes me doubt, that china without outside help, can come up with something so fast.



Without outside help, particularly from Germans, the answer is probably no. With Germans help (machine tools), and if domestic politics doesn't get in the way of sound judgement, China probably can get there. In today's world, there ain't that much scientific barrier, only engineering capabilities. Also for a good 5th gen, China probably needs more powerful chips for flight control, can pentium do that? 
Where do China get the chips? The reason why I am worried about this is if you look at j10, it has fairly stable aerial dynamics which doesn't demand very powerful chips for flight control. But for a true 5th "machine designed" machine, very powerful chip is a must. I think only two countries in the world can deliver that, US, or Japan. duh.


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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm telling you, its just like 1998. "Hum ek din main Vijay hojayenge". And right now the RUSSIANS have tested it, not even in Indian hands... Sooner or later, the Pakistani/Chinese combo would puncture holes and then sab thanday hojayenge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, even if they had a 1st use policy, we all knew India is blowing up smoke up our assess. Indians have a lot of phook right now, just like back then, they'll huff and puff.



What has *India* done or said about the T-50 that qualifies for a 'phook' approach?
do you have any technical flaws to point out in the prototype?

There is no Pakistani/Chinese combo...there is only a chengdu/Nanchang/shenyang combo that would get you something...
and believe me there is a long time before it happens...they are still dependent on the russians and the israelis for a lot of key technologies...not as much as we are...but we are happy with the T-50 actually taking up to the skies and the notion that most Indians would actually live to see the day when the IAF would have stealth fighter in it's ranks is simply glorious...

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## saurabh

albwd said:


> Without outside help, particularly from Germans, the answer is probably no. With Germans help (machine tools), and if domestic politics doesn't get in the way of sound judgement, China probably can get there. In today's world, there ain't that much scientific barrier, only engineering capabilities. Also for a good 5th gen, China probably needs more powerful chips for flight control, can pentium do that?
> Where do China get the chips? The reason why I am worried about this is if you look at j10, it has fairly stable aerial dynamics which doesn't demand very powerful chips for flight control. But for a true 5th "machine designed" machine, very powerful chip is a must. I think only two countries in the world can deliver that, US, or Japan. duh.


Nope. If Russia can come up with something, they surely didnt get chips from Japan or Us.

Engineering capabilities, computing, programing and experience. From a AI simulated flight, or a high degree situational awareness, u need both, good computer and algorithm (programing).
USA is far ahead, cause it can invest great amount of money, and get brains from all part of the world. Can make every equipment at home.
Russia, had the infrastructure ready. Sukhoi was working on berkut even in days of financial crisis. Great experience. But how did they get the computing power?
For China, machine tools must not be a problem. They can be purchased under a guise. But tot...
Also how much reliable do you think their claims are (no offence). Even Russians claims are generally laughed out by westerns. Paf seems to be going for western avionics on its jf17. Chinese AC have not been actually tested in war. So if they claim that a they made a 5 gen AC, how much truth will that claim have. Because of large co-operation b/w western countries, their claims can be cross checked. But in case of Russia and China, you have to rely on the country itself.


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## albwd

paritosh said:


> What has *India* done or said about the T-50 that qualifies for a 'phook' approach?
> do you have any technical flaws to point out in the prototype?
> 
> There is no Pakistani/Chinese combo...there is only a chengdu/Nanchang/shenyang combo that would get you something...
> and believe me there is a long time before it happens...they are still dependent on the russians and the israelis for a lot of key technologies...not as much as we are...but we are happy with the T-50 actually taking up to the skies and the notion that most Indians would actually live to see the day when the IAF would have stealth fighter in it's ranks is simply glorious...



T-50 is politically "required" to be delivered. Whether its solid or when it's transfered to India (if at all) depends on a lot of factors. In the mean time, Pak has so many things to do at home. You may have won a battle, but Pak will win the war.

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## albwd

saurabh said:


> Nope. If Russia can come up with something, they surely didnt get chips from Japan or Us.
> 
> Engineering capabilities, computing, programing and experience. From a AI simulated flight, or a high degree situational awareness, u need both, good computer and algorithm (programing).
> USA is far ahead, cause it can invest great amount of money, and get brains from all part of the world. Can make every equipment at home.
> Russia, had the infrastructure ready. Sukhoi was working on berkut even in days of financial crisis. Great experience. But how did they get the computing power?
> For China, machine tools must not be a problem. They can be purchased under a guise. But tot...
> Also how much reliable do you think their claims are (no offence). Even Russians claims are generally laughed out by westerns. Paf seems to be going for western avionics on its jf17. Chinese AC have not been actually tested in war. So if they claim that a they made a 5 gen AC, how much truth will that claim have. Because of large co-operation b/w western countries, their claims can be cross checked. But in case of Russia and China, you have to rely on the country itself.



If you don't believe J10 means serious business, I have no comment. 5th gen so what? 4th is just a upgrade from 3rd. steath is just an optimized 4th with low RCS. radar and missiles can make a difference. 5th has not much advantage if discovered first. Am I right, Emo Girl?


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## Mahakaya

Growler said:


> typical indian. stop being laughing stock of this forum... F-15 with a 25m2 RCS?



RITE!! Check what I said the "Original" F-15 design go check and then talk!! who made this guy for what he is known to be around here!! I had better expectations from you or probably my gut was spot on! U aint no smart one - ur just as novice as anyone of the newbees like me here!! anyhow - I would trust EMO more than I would you anyday!!


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## TaimiKhan

XiNiX said:


> Right Taimi,
> Stealth is what they have to work on.
> Short Cut : Buy the Russian Tech by Backdoor
> Long Route : Invest Heavy Money and Get it Done by Yourself .. Needs Time.
> 
> Engine wont be the real issue thy can do it.
> 
> 
> But can their FIRST Engine Really deliver Super Cruise ?
> Can they Really Make the RCS Low
> Can they Make the RADAR performance up to the optimum level ?
> 
> These are a few obvious Questions.



They are already working on the stealth project for years now, that is why the general said in 7-8 years time, they are gonna induct it. Induction means flying in PLAAF colors as a final product. 

In the last one decade or so, Chinese aircraft industry have gained a lot of knowledge, one way or another. So even if we say there is another 10 years to go, its more then enough for the Chinese with such huge R&D infrastructure and money, to get this project completed.


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## Mahakaya

SSGPA1 said:


> Yep future is bright indeed as Indians are investing so much money ro support this industry around the globe
> 
> Russians have just fooled you and your brothers are fighting hard on this forum to accept the embarrasing fact.
> 
> Don't count too much on PAK-FA and hope that you will get the 5th gen fighter from the USA some time in the future afetr the MRCA deal.



AND FACE THE REALITY - we will if WE WANT IT and no one is going to say no to US - as far as JSF is concerned but I am dead sure that the PAK FA will be good to counter u know WHO!!!!


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## Mahakaya

albwd said:


> T-50 is politically "required" to be delivered. Whether its solid or when it's transfered to India (if at all) depends on a lot of factors. In the mean time, Pak has so many things to do at home. You may have won a battle, but Pak will win the war.



a war that has ravaged our lands for over 60years now - thanks to your CHINI mission to curtail India and thanks to our brainless politicians - if you are so confident on your developments then y dont you come up with specs about ur so called "JXX" wat is that - oh I got it something that will be r***& as the name suggests!! - lol!! go home buddy try and come up with an indeginous design first and then we can talk!!


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