# 8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks



## Muhammad Omar

Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....

Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....

Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....

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## Dr. Strangelove

no money no honey

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## Muhammad Omar

Dr. Stranglove said:


> no money no honey



hmm maybe they have money maybe on soft loans ??? there's also news about 4 more F-22 frigates

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## Oruc



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## Dr. Strangelove

Muhammad Omar said:


> hmm maybe they have money maybe on soft loans ??? there's also news about 4 more F-22 frigates


6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this

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## Oruc



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## Muhammad Omar

Dr. Stranglove said:


> 6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this



Sorry m not the Minister of Finance...


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## Azeri440

Muhammad Omar said:


> hmm maybe they have money maybe on soft loans ??? there's also news about 4 more F-22 frigates



I am gonna guess Saudis are paying

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## Dr. Strangelove

Muhammad Omar said:


> Sorry m not the Minister of Finance...


but i dont understand we have 3 augostas 90s 2 A.70s(soon to be retired)
8 chinese subs are enough we would have 11 submarines 
why are we looking for used subs from other countries?
how big a fleet they intend to build

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## Muhammad Omar

Azeri440 said:


> I am gonna guess Saudis are paying



i was thinking of this too.... Help them and they'll give you $$$$$$



Dr. Stranglove said:


> but i dont understand we have 3 augostas 90s 2 A.70s(soon to be retired)
> 8 chinese subs are enough we would have 11 submarines
> why are we looking for used subs from other countries?
> how big a fleet they intend to build



I think it's because our sea limits increased from 200 nm to 350 nm

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## rockstar08

that is a huge order , but if govt approve the order , they must give them some dollars , cause nothing is free ...
PN need heavy modification to its fleet , as Gwader Port is been Operational , we need to have more Frigate and 1-2 heavy Destroyers with Good AAW capabilities .. a VLS system on our Frigate or DDG's in important , without a proper defense our Ships will not be much effective Against enemy CM and Fighters ...

and if we are up to buy a huge number of Subs, i would say , Buy 3 Chinese subs ,and 3 German or French ... and keep working on our own N-Sub for second strike Capability ..

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## Azeri440

Muhammad Omar said:


> i was thinking of this too.... Help them and they'll give you $$$$$$



sudden news about 8 subs and 4 frigates which together would add up to 2 - 3 billion USD 
I wonder if we'll hear about more sudden major plans.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Azeri440 said:


> I am gonna guess Saudis are paying



8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)

6 MPA's (Complete surprise)

4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)

..


Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )


..

Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships

90+ SH-1 SP guns.

Nurol Arnoured vehicles

Burraq

...


Jf-17 BLK II

The fk.

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## Muhammad Omar

rockstar08 said:


> that is a huge order , but if govt approve the order , they must give them some dollars , cause nothing is free ...
> PN need heavy modification to its fleet , as Gwader Port is been Operational , we need to have more Frigate and 1-2 heavy Destroyers with Good AAW capabilities .. a VLS system on our Frigate or DDG's in important , without a proper defense our Ships will not be much effective Against enemy CM and Fighters ...
> 
> and if we are up to buy a huge number of Subs, i would say , Buy 3 Chinese subs ,and 3 German or French ... and keep working on our own N-Sub for second strike Capability ..



8 From China maybe 1-2 each from UK France and Germany


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar08 said:


> that is a huge order , but if govt approve the order , they must give them some dollars , cause nothing is free ...
> PN need heavy modification to its fleet , as Gwader Port is been Operational , we need to have more Frigate and 1-2 heavy Destroyers with Good AAW capabilities .. a VLS system on our Frigate or DDG's in important , without a proper defense our Ships will not be much effective Against enemy CM and Fighters ...
> 
> and if we are up to buy a huge number of Subs, i would say , Buy 3 Chinese subs ,and 3 German or French ... and keep working on our own N-Sub for second strike Capability ..




Increase in EEZ = More responsibility for the Navy.

Apart from Gwadar,Jinnah Naval Base Omara is also operational.

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## Psychic

rockstar08 said:


> that is a huge order , but if govt approve the order , they must give them some dollars , cause nothing is free ...
> PN need heavy modification to its fleet , as Gwader Port is been Operational , we need to have more Frigate and 1-2 heavy Destroyers with Good AAW capabilities .. a VLS system on our Frigate or DDG's in important , without a proper defense our Ships will not be much effective Against enemy CM and Fighters ...
> 
> and if we are up to buy a huge number of Subs, i would say , Buy 3 Chinese subs ,and 3 German or French ... and keep working on our own N-Sub for second strike Capability ..


There is no possibility for buying of German and French subs(if you mean scorpenes).


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## Azeri440

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> 
> 
> The fk.



SH-1 SP is a pretty great addition to the army

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## rockstar08

Muhammad Omar said:


> 8 From China maybe 1-2 each from UK France and Germany



no , that's too much for our requirement , we need to make a proper formation to counter IN carrier formation in future wars, Subs are effective but we need strong DDG's ...
West Tech mixed with Chinese can be a nightmare for IN.

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.


deal was signed a few years back if i m not wrong and deliveries started in 2011


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## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Increase in EEZ = More responsibility for the Navy.
> 
> Apart from Gwadar,Jinnah Naval Base Omara is also operational.



Exactly , their rivals have huge Naval Capabilities , its enough to disturb the sleep of PN ...
we need to signed some big deals in upcoming years , 
we also need a proper second strike Capabilities , and we cant underestimate our Enemy , here , they got more than us ..



Psychic said:


> There is no possibility for buying of German and French subs(if you mean scorpenes).



Its all about Money , you throw some Dollars and see Angela dance for you 
you got cash , you can buy it ..

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## Dr. Strangelove

Muhammad Omar said:


> 8 From China maybe 1-2 each from UK France and Germany


but uk dont have any ssks in service france wont sell them
only germany is left


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Azeri440 said:


> SH-1 SP is a pretty great addition to the army



Yup.. Being from a Gunner family .. I do appreciate SPG's n arty in general.. Unfortunately HIT has capped the production of Panter howitzers at around similar number (hope HIT guys are cooperating with Turkey to develop a lighter version of the gun).

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## Basel

Muhammad Omar said:


> Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....
> 
> Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....
> 
> Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....



What type of subs from China? And what type of used subs UK and Germany can sell specially when we already have Augusta-90B subs and can build more if required.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dr. Stranglove said:


> but uk dont have any ssks in service france wont sell them
> only germany is left


Pak media isn't really considered reliable .. Only guys who actually know something about this stuff are far n few like Usman shabir.

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## Psychic

rockstar08 said:


> Exactly , their rivals have huge Naval Capabilities , its enough to disturb the sleep of PN ...
> we need to signed some big deals in upcoming years ,
> we also need a proper second strike Capabilities , and we cant underestimate our Enemy , here , they got more than us ..
> 
> 
> 
> Its all about Money , you throw some Dollars and see Angela dance for you
> you got cash , you can buy it ..


We ain't got that much cash 
Unless Saudis are paying ; )


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## Oruc

It was hilarious to note that while Naval Officials were briefing on these matters and rescue operation in Yemen all the members of the comittee cared about was why were they not invited on 23rd march Parade.

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Who said they weren't ? I saw a boat load of naval officers there .. Several 2 stars aswell as the chief of naval staff,Naval contingent,Marines with their hover crafts,UAVS,SSGN etc..


senates defence comittee


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Psychic said:


> We ain't got that much cash
> Unless Saudis are paying ; )


Unless Saudis are paying 3-4 billion $.

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## razgriz19

Dr. Stranglove said:


> 6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this



the aircraft pay for themselves as the time goes by


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## Dr. Strangelove

razgriz19 said:


> the aircraft pay for themselves as the time goes by


for navy man not for PIA


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## razgriz19

Dr. Stranglove said:


> for navy man not for PIA


ohh i thought you meant for PIA

*Defence budget: Navy pleads for fleet modernisation funds*

*ISLAMABAD: As part of its fleet modernisation plan, Pakistan Navy is seeking Rs15 billion over the next three years for its needs, a request that the acting naval chief made directly to Finance Minister Ishaq Dar.*

Acting Chief of Naval Staff, Vice Admiral Khan Hasham Bin Siddique met the minister on Monday at the finance ministry, seeking funds to meet the navy’s more urgent needs, as well as future requirements of the naval forces, according to a handout issued by the ministry. The acting naval chief sought over Rs2 billion for meeting immediate requirements to settle bills due to China and another Rs15 billion for future needs, said an official after the meeting.

The meeting indicates that the Pakistan Navy wants to go for major defence procurements over the next few years, aimed at modernising its fleet. As the smallest of Pakistan’s three armed services, the navy usually gets only one-tenth of the total stated defence budget, with the bulk going to the army. The direct meeting with the finance minister suggests that the navy is keen to get its needs fulfilled.

For his part, the finance minister was supportive of the idea of fleet modernisation, but asked the navy to go through the joint staff headquarters of the armed forces. “The minister directed that a complete picture of Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) be presented in consultation with the Joint Staff Head Quarters to assess the budgetary requirements over the next three years,” said the official handout.

However, Dar was also quoted as saying: “If there is a need, the government will not hesitate to help the navy through budgetary support.”

The federal government separately provides funds for the AFDP. This funding is over and above the traditional defense budget and usually ranges between Rs165 billion to Rs200 billion. For the current fiscal year, the government has allocated Rs165 billion under the heading “contingent liabilities”, but is meant for meeting the development needs of the military.

Pakistan has always engaged in an arithmetically futile attempt to peg its defence budget to a fixed ratio with the Indian defence budget. Historically, the ratio has been three to one, but after the recent increases in Indian defence spending, the ratio has dropped to 4.5 to one, said former finance minister Hafeez Pasha.

India has a population that is six times larger than Pakistan. Its economy is nine times larger ($2 trillion vs $230 billion) than Pakistan and growing at a much faster rate. As a result, it is mathematically impossible for Pakistan to keep pace with Indian defence spending.

The Naval chief also requested the finance minister to take up the financing issue of different defence related equipment. The minister asked the naval chief to send the working paper to the Economic Affairs Division which has been directed to negotiate with Chinese authorities on a variety of issues, said the finance ministry.

_Published in The Express Tribune, March 31st, 2015. _

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## Mughal-Prince

Dr. Stranglove said:


> 6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this


Aray Dak-ter sahib don't you see what is happening in ME now guess whose worried about our defences against our foe

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## farhan_9909

I would have instead invested some of the amount into nuclear submarine

4xconventional submarine
1xSSBN

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## happybirthdaytoyou

I think Saudi Arabia is paying for us

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## HRK

Azeri440 said:


> sudden news about 8 subs and 4 frigates which together would add up to 2 - 3 billion USD
> I wonder if we'll hear about more sudden major plans.



I don't think that this package would cost only $ 2-3 billion; decent sub by International standard cost more then $ 500 million on average so at least $ 4 billion would be required for the acquisition of submarines only add $ 1 billion more for frigates and other stuff so the estimated cost should be around $ 5-6 billion, but the point here should be noted that all that this package will required at least 12-15 year to get operational (including manufacturing period) which mean only $ *350-450 million additional *would be required for PN annually over the period which I believe is manageable for Pakistan.

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## xyxmt

Dr. Stranglove said:


> no money no honey



Operation decisive storm

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## Paksanity

PN doesn't have ambitions to control entire Indian Ocean. Submarines are the right way to deal with Indian navy. They are stealthy and lethal.

I am assuming that Pakistan is looking at Chinese Subs for its naval strategic arm and western ones as counter weight to blockade ambition of IN. If order is something like $3b, Pakistan can fulfill it from own finances. However depends on payment schedule and conditions.

For right amount of money, France and UK will sell Subs. No problem in that. I would have liked them to look at Swedish Subs. They have one of the most advanced subs in the world.

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## fjavaid

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Unless Saudis are paying 3-4 billion $.


u hv more than 27K posts ...n u come up with this pathetic logic ....no wonder PDF has become home of trolls ....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fjavaid said:


> u hv more than 27K posts ...n u come up with this pathetic logic ....no wonder PDF has become home of trolls ....



Ever heard of a creature called sarcasm ? Now control your hissy fits and piss off.

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## black-hawk_101

Azeri440 said:


> sudden news about 8 subs and 4 frigates which together would add up to 2 - 3 billion USD
> I wonder if we'll hear about more sudden major plans.



I think GoP might be speeding up the privatization process. If we consider the financial entities will be privatized within 6 moths to 100% how much will GoP will gain? I am sure they will give the money to Military.

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## SafShikan

Dr. Stranglove said:


> why are we looking for used subs from other countries?


I think Chinese are providing us with submarines for strategic purposes(ballistic and cruise missile) only...but other westerns platforms would be used for other purposes....e.g attack subs

Furthermore, despite some setbacks Pakistan is rising as a powerful state in the world...and our navy has a strong role to play in the world politics of the near future


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## nana41

Dr. Stranglove said:


> but i dont understand we have 3 augostas 90s 2 A.70s(soon to be retired)
> 8 chinese subs are enough we would have 11 submarines
> why are we looking for used subs from other countries?
> how big a fleet they intend to build


India has 16 submarines 10 Russians and 8 Germans.In addition there are 6 French subs under constructions 
and a contract of a further batch of 6 is being signed. All to make Indian Navy a blue water navy,whereas Pakistan Navy 
having only 5 (3 Agosta 90 and 2 old Agosta 70) submarines are good enough to protect coastal area of our country.


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## Víðarr

Dr. Stranglove said:


> but uk dont have any ssks in service france wont sell them
> only germany is left



The UK does have SSKs :

*Upholder Class* - type: diesel-electric submarine. Service status: four in active service with the RCN

Displacement: 2,455 tonnes (2,416 long tons)
Length: 70.26 metres (230.5 ft)
Beam: 7.2 metres (24 ft)
Draught: 7.6 metres (25 ft)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric- 1 shaft
2 × Paxman Valenta 2,035 hp (1.517 MW) 1600 RPA SZ diesels (3.035 MW total)
1 × GEC electric motor (5 MW)
Speed: 12 knots (surface)
20+ knots (submerged)
Range: 8,000 nmi (15,000 km; 9,200 mi)
Complement: 48

Sensors and processing systems: Sonar: Type 2040 active/passive bow,Type 2041 micropuffs, Type 2007 flank, Type 2046/CANTASS MOD towed array, Type 2019 active intercept
Fire Control: Lockheed-Martin Librascope SFCS Mk 1 Mod C

Radar: Kelvin Hughes Type 1007
Armament: 6 x 21 inch (533 mm) torpedo tubes (18 Mark 48 torpedoes)










































Exported to: Canada

Upholder/Victoria-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Dr. Strangelove

Víðarr said:


> Upholder/Victoria-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


they were retired from service nearly 20 years ago they dont have any active SSKs


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## Bratva

*"Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines," officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.

They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members' concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality.They said there was no such issue at hand as JF-17 has proven to be a world class military jet.

Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told - Pakistan - DAWN.COM*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nana41 said:


> India has 16 submarines 10 Russians and 8 Germans.In addition there are 6 French subs under constructions
> and a contract of a further batch of 6 is being signed. All to make Indian Navy a blue water navy,whereas Pakistan Navy
> having only 5 (3 Agosta 90 and 2 old Agosta 70) submarines are good enough to protect coastal area of our country.



Half of those subs are not operational .. Others are antiques .. 1 or 2 were blown to shit.

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## Tipu7

Judging from ''shopping list'' of Pakistan .............. looks like we will soon jump in Saudia Arabia and then we will have what we want.....................

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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Half of those subs are not operational .. Others are antiques .. 1 or 2 were blown to shit.


The Modi government signals a new push into the Indian Ocean with a diplomatic offensive and naval expansion to counter China's growing presence : Special Report - India Today

India’s first Scorpene submarine is now in water

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

ISLAMABAD: Naval officials informed the Standing Committee on Defence Monday that the federal government has endorsed a summary to get eight submarines from China.

Pakistan's military has long been a major importer of defence equipment, particularly from key ally China.

After the Cold War ended Pakistan began to deepen defence and economic ties with China.

_Take a look: With new JF-17, Pakistan aims for boost to defence exports_

The committee was informed that Secretary of the Economic Affairs division Muhammad Saleem Sethi would be leaving for China tomorrow where the issue is expected to come under discussion.

The officials also said that the national security committee will give the final nod to go ahead with the plan to get eight submarines from China.

"Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines," officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.

They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members' concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality.They said there was no such issue at hand as JF-17 has proven to be a world class military jet.

The officials informed the standing committee that Pakistan's defence relations with Russia were also improving.

On the other hand, there appeared to be a divide among committee members whether Pakistan should send troops to Saudi Arabia.

Defence Secretary Lieutenant General (retd) Alam Khattak said that the Pakistan Army would abide by the government's decision on whether to send troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

This was the first time that the defence secretary spelled out the official stance of the Pakistan Army on sending troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

His brief comment came in response to a volley of questions by committee members as to whether military troops would be sent to the Saudi kingdom.

Chairman Sheikh Rohail Asghar maintained that the Pakistan Army should chase terrorists regardless of their location but women members belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) and Awami National Party (ANP) had a different point of view.



@Oscar. @Irfan Baloch. @MastanKhan. @chauvunist @HRK. @Umair Nawaz. @salman Badshah. @Rashid Mahmood

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## aliaselin

This news is confusing. Will Pakistan buy 8 submarines from China and second hand ones from Europe or choose one of the previous options?


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## black-hawk_101

It was a Better idea for PN to produce about 10 of the Agosta-90Bs in the past and then join in with EU on next generation submarines along with GCC countries. But the current condition calls for buying may be used Agosta-70s from EU with upgrades.


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## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> The fk.



Nazar nai lagana ab 
Mashallah tu bolo

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## Burhan Wani

rockstar08 said:


> Nazar nai lagana ab
> Mashallah tu bolo


Can you share the model of shortlisted subs for our navy?


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## rockstar08

engineer saad said:


> Can you share the model of shortlisted subs for our navy?



i dont know which one they are seeking but i guess , its S-20 .... but i dont know which one they can buy from French and Germans ?
@Horus @fatman17 can help here ...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar08 said:


> Nazar nai lagana ab
> Mashallah tu bolo



Those 6 ATRs I couldn't find anything on them.


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## rockstar08

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Those 6 ATRs I couldn't find anything on them.



what is ATR ??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

black-hawk_101 said:


> It was a Better idea for PN to produce about 10 of the Agosta-90Bs in the past and then join in with EU on next generation submarines along with GCC countries. But the current condition calls for buying may be used Agosta-70s from EU with upgrades.



Why would we buy old agostas 70s when we can can build agosta 90Bs under licsense (they came with complete ToT - built at Karachi Shipyard).

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## Saifullah Sani

rockstar08 said:


> i dont know which one they are seeking but i guess , its S-20 .... but i dont know which one they can buy from French and Germans ?
> @Horus @fatman17 can help here ...





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.*


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## rockstar08

i knew that it would have happen ... but German U214 are better ...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar08 said:


> what is ATR ??





rockstar08 said:


> what is ATR ??

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## alimobin memon

What in the name of Allah and Allah's heaven happening ?

8 subs , 4 frigs , cutters, z10, mi 35, SH1, Shaheen 3, 150 sells of ak to SA is true story and My Job Interview Went really well Oh my Today is like Eid Baby !

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## Hurter

France has rejected to give its technology to Pakistan.. Now German technology is better than France's.



alimobin memon said:


> What in the name of Allah and Allah's heaven happening ?
> 
> 8 subs , 4 frigs , cutters, z10, mi 35, SH1, Shaheen 3 and My Job Interview Went really well Oh my Today is like Eid Baby !



Good Luck with your job interview.

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## alimobin memon

Junaid B said:


> France has rejected to give its technology to Pakistan.. Now German technology is better than France's.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck with your job interview.


Thanks Mate

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## Georgeclark

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Half of those subs are not operational .. Others are antiques .. 1 or 2 were blown to shit.


Out of those 16, 10 are operational and India is making scorpions too, project 75i and Arihant, new class SSbN's and SSN's







What does Pakistan have now ?? 8 submarines out of which 3 are midget and all under 2100 tons and 10 frigates to the most. Sometimes its good to appreciate what your neighbor has done better than you. Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.

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## Muhammad Omar

*Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told*





This photo shows a Chinese navy submarine. — AP/File


_*ISLAMABAD: Naval officials informed the Standing Committee on Defence Monday that the federal government has endorsed a summary to get eight submarines from China.*_

Pakistan's military has long been a major importer of defence equipment, particularly from key ally China.

After the Cold War ended Pakistan began to deepen defence and economic ties with China.

_Take a look: With new JF-17, Pakistan aims for boost to defence exports_

The committee was informed that Secretary of the Economic Affairs division Muhammad Saleem Sethi would be leaving for China tomorrow where the issue is expected to come under discussion.

The officials also said that the national security committee will give the final nod to go ahead with the plan to get eight submarines from China.

"Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines," officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.

They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members' concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality.They said there was no such issue at hand as JF-17 has proven to be a world class military jet.

The officials informed the standing committee that Pakistan's defence relations with Russia were also improving.

On the other hand, there appeared to be a divide among committee members whether Pakistan should send troops to Saudi Arabia.

Defence Secretary Lieutenant General (retd) Alam Khattak said that the Pakistan Army would abide by the government's decision on whether to send troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

This was the first time that the defence secretary spelled out the official stance of the Pakistan Army on sending troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

His brief comment came in response to a volley of questions by committee members as to whether military troops would be sent to the Saudi kingdom.

Chairman Sheikh Rohail Asghar maintained that the Pakistan Army should chase terrorists regardless of their location but women members belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) and Awami National Party (ANP) had a different point of view.


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## NaMaloom

Not to happy with this development. Its a waste of limited resources. Pakistan Navy should have focused on replacing the old Agosta-70s so as to maintain a 6 vessel strength. 3 Agosta-90Bs and 3 new subs. The rest of the money should have been poured into design and development of a nuclear submarine in partnership with China (incorporating Western technology where Chinese technology either lags behind or doesn't add up to PN's operational requirements). This would have guaranteed results in the next 5-7yrs and we would most likely have a nuclear submarine in the waters in another 3yrs. That's roughly 10years from the time the decision is taken. Not bad at all. The 6 regular submarines would continue to fulfill their role in the meantime. 

Pakistan Navy's goal should be 7 SSKs and 3 SSBNs. That is ALL they should need in terms of submarines. As of now, 3 Agosta-90Bs and 8 SSKs from China gives us 11 which would be an overkill unless the PN has considered retiring Agosta-90Bs as well along with the Agosta-70s and just maintain a fleet of 8 new SSKs after they have all been commissioned. 

Either way, Pakistan desperately needs to be working on a SSBN right about now (and of course surface destroyers).

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## SQ8

The gentleman was dir procurement and projects so it was natural that he would push things forward.

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## kaonalpha

looks like some what of the military hardware that was discussed in the 2015 military procurement is starting to come true


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## Psychic

Georgeclark said:


> Out of those 16, 10 are operational and India is making scorpions too, project 75i and Arihant, new class SSbN's and SSN's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Pakistan have now ?? 8 submarines out of which 3 are midget and all under 2100 tons and 10 frigates to the most. Sometimes its good to appreciate what your neighbor has done better than you. Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.


That's why Pakistan is getting 8 subs plus 4 frigates. They will provide the required detterence and will be enough to fulfil our needs.
And for your kind information Pakistan produced 2 90B subs in it's own dockyard along with some f-22p's and other boats.

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## Georgeclark

Psychic said:


> That's why Pakistan is getting 8 subs plus 4 frigates. They will provide the required detterence and will be enough to fulfil our needs.
> And for your kind information Pakistan produced 2 90B subs in it's own dockyard along with some f-22p's and other boats.


Let the info come with real sources then we will know, 8 subs and 4 frigates isn't an easy buy


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## rockstar08

Psychic said:


> We ain't got that much cash
> Unless Saudis are paying ; )



Relax , saudi's are paying nothing , those deals are planned from years .. its just Navy is looking for money , maybe now givt is slowly providing them

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## boke

从一个中国人的视觉来看，曾经比较过巴基斯坦和印度的海军力量，客观的说，巴基斯坦的海军比印度还有很大差距，只能追究不对称的平衡，比如说加强潜艇和反潜力量，加强空对海、地对海的打击能力，这样才能应对印度多得多得海军力量威胁。作为中国的忠实朋友，中国永远愿意做巴基斯坦的后盾！

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## karakoram

Dr. Stranglove said:


> no money no honey


got money from KSA dude.  now alot honey


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## volatile

i think there will be 3 nuke sub marine in this deal remaining five for attack and replacement for Olf Augustas and from western it does nt add up .May be opening door for negotiation


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## SrNair

NaMaloom said:


> Not to happy with this development. Its a waste of limited resources. Pakistan Navy should have focused on replacing the old Agosta-70s so as to maintain a 6 vessel strength. 3 Agosta-90Bs and 3 new subs. The rest of the money should have been poured into design and development of a nuclear submarine in partnership with China (incorporating Western technology where Chinese technology either lags behind or doesn't add up to PN's operational requirements). This would have guaranteed results in the next 5-7yrs and we would most likely have a nuclear submarine in the waters in another 3yrs. That's roughly 10years from the time the decision is taken. Not bad at all. The 6 regular submarines would continue to fulfill their role in the meantime.
> 
> Pakistan Navy's goal should be 7 SSKs and 3 SSBNs. That is ALL they should need in terms of submarines. As of now, 3 Agosta-90Bs and 8 SSKs from China gives us 11 which would be an overkill unless the PN has considered retiring Agosta-90Bs as well along with the Agosta-70s and just maintain a fleet of 8 new SSKs after they have all been commissioned.
> 
> Either way, Pakistan desperately needs to be working on a SSBN right about now (and of course surface destroyers).




Look like SSBN or SSN is like some shop candy .
You should have at least 1 billion $ project for an SSN or SSBN .And maintanence and safety is also damn expensive .


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## Stephen Cohen

Which model is this submarine and what is the price per unit


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## A2Z

Does the number 8 includes second hand subs or is it like 8 new chinese subs and then few second hand?
What about nuclear submarine? That should be our first priority.


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## My-Analogous

I bit it will be customize based subs. according to PN requirements.


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## Rafi

Have heard from a very good source, that the miniaturized reactor/naval propulsion system and the various electrical systems have recently completed a key testing and reliability test, brothers assisted with various technical assistance. 

It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.

Congratulations to the whole nation, for the effective birth of Pakistan Navy Strategic Force Command.
NSFC and our Second Strike Capability. 

Pakistan Paindabad.

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## karakoram

Rafi said:


> Have heard from a very good source, that the miniaturized reactor/naval propulsion system and the various electrical systems have recently completed a key testing and reliability test, brothers assisted with various technical assistance.
> 
> It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.
> 
> Congratulations to the whole nation, for the effective birth of Pakistan Navy Strategic Force Command.
> NSFC and our Second Strike Capability.
> 
> Pakistan Paindabad.


i hope its true. Long live Pakistan


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## kaonalpha

Rafi said:


> Have heard from a very good source, that the miniaturized reactor/naval propulsion system and the various electrical systems have recently completed a key testing and reliability test, brothers assisted with various technical assistance.
> 
> It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.
> 
> Congratulations to the whole nation, for the effective birth of Pakistan Navy Strategic Force Command.
> NSFC and our Second Strike Capability.
> 
> Pakistan Paindabad.


wait are you saying that we have a partially working nuclear submarine or MIRV on Shaheen 3? Can you kindly elaborate


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## Johny D

Its possible only if Pak is sharing its Nukes with Saudi..otherwise, just a dream!


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## A2Z

Rafi said:


> It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.


If true then this would be a really powerful punch for PN.



JD_In said:


> Its possible only if Pak is sharing its Nukes with Saudi..otherwise, just a dream!


What do you think will Pakistan do that?


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## Johny D

A2Z said:


> What do you think will Pakistan do that?



yes, both are in desperate state ...Pak needs more fund to balance its defense vis a vis India but cant source that fund from its own economy..on the other hand, Saudi has fund but lacks offensive credible deterrence against its enemy like Iran who is close to acquiring Nukes....so, there is high probability that Pak will some day export its Nukes/Tech to KSA!

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## Dr. Strangelove

Rafi said:


> It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.


s3 is like >20>meters long how big a sub they wanna build


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Georgeclark said:


> Out of those 16, 10 are operational and India is making scorpions too, project 75i and Arihant, new class SSbN's and SSN's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Pakistan have now ?? 8 submarines out of which 3 are midget and all under 2100 tons and 10 frigates to the most. Sometimes its good to appreciate what your neighbor has done better than you. Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.



No kiddo we have 5 subs (3 with AIP) + 8 more AIP subs and more .. All these apart from midget subs (Also armed) that are in use with SSGN.


That 13 subs 11 with AIP .. Meanwhile not a single indian sin has AIP and they tend to explode while in harbour.

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## farhan_9909

JD_In said:


> yes, both are in desperate state ...Pak needs more fund to balance its defense vis a vis India but cant source that fund from its own economy..on the other hand, Saudi has fund but lacks offensive credible deterrence against its enemy like Iran who is close to acquiring Nukes....so, there is high probability that Pak will some day export its Nukes/Tech to KSA!



Pakistan navy is looking for submarine since 2007-08 and we were about to strike a deal for 6 submarine last year.Our economy is improving,so expect some stalled procurement of the last decade.


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## Tameem

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Those 6 ATRs I couldn't find anything on them.



Govt approves purchase of 8 Chinese submarines, six ATRs aircraft for Pakistan Navy

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## LonE_WolF

Finally the long awaited submarine deal goes through


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## Donatello

I just hope they don't go for the pathetic Upholder class. They weren't good when new, definitely not good now.



Oscar said:


> The gentleman was dir procurement and projects so it was natural that he would push things forward.



What do you say, it would be Chinese Subs only or a mix of German and Chinese subs?


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## SQ8

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Those 6 ATRs I couldn't find anything on them.



You guys have bad memories. The ATRs were evaluated way earlier. The Gentleman in question had a nice model (along with other systems) of it in his office when he was DCNS(Projects)



Donatello said:


> What do you say, it would be Chinese Subs only or a mix of German and Chinese subs?


I can tell you that it is a Chinese sub but it is not the Qing; It is a modified Yuan class.

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## DJ Crudept

8* s20 or qing or yuan ?


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> You guys have bad memories. The ATRs were evaluated way earlier. The Gentleman in question had a nice model (along with other systems) of it in his office when he was DCNS(Procurement and Projects)
> 
> 
> I can tell you that it is a Chinese sub but it is not the Qing; It is a modified Yuan class.



So they going for more ATRs? With what systems or just randomly flying them around with binoculars? 

Yuan would be good, bigger displacement, so SLCM seems confirmed if that is the choice.

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> So they going for more ATRs? With what systems or just randomly flying them around with binoculars?
> 
> Yuan would be good, bigger displacement, so SLCM seems confirmed if that is the choice.



These aircraft can be refitted. As such however their role is specific to replacing the Fokkers.. which werent looking around with just binoculars as can be seen here. 






This is what ATR MPA's may look like if the PN spends the right money

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## The SC

My guess would be 6 big Qing class 4000t surfaced, 6000 t submerged as the deal for them was signed in 2011. Plus 2 S20s. All with AIP and most probably an all electrical propulsion system (super quiet). From there to nuclear propulsion, all Pakistan needs is a miniaturized naval submarine reactor, which I have heard long time ago that its technology was mastered by Pakistani scientists.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> These aircraft can be refitted. As such however their role is specific to replacing the Fokkers.. which werent looking around with just binoculars as can be seen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what ATR MPA's may look like if the PN spends the right money



Just get the fleet and buy the got damn upgrades. It's not like we don't need it. These systems last what....10-15 years....so investment today is just one time investment.


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## raazh

Oscar said:


> These aircraft can be refitted. As such however their role is specific to replacing the Fokkers.. which werent looking around with just binoculars as can be seen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what ATR MPA's may look like if the PN spends the right money



If I am not wrong than the Turks have bagged the recently concluded MPA contract ..


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## Bilal.

2 ATRs are already in service. There was even speculation of giving them meltem modification from turkey:

Navy gets two ATR-72 aircrafts


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## Mitro

Saud finance like they are doing in egypt .pakistan is going to benefit and will provide security for saud house hold.


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## Rashid Mahmood

I concur with @Rafi comments....

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## Umair Nawaz

Georgeclark said:


> Let the info come with real sources then we will know, 8 subs and 4 frigates isn't an easy buy


u moron! the thread in which yr posting is of 8 new subs procurement.

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## monitor

pshamim of pakdef telling this


> S-20
> An improved version of Yuan Class 039. Proposed 6 produced in China and 2in Pakistan with transfer of technology. Double hulled. depth 300 m.

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## SBD-3

Muhammad Omar said:


> hmm maybe they have money maybe on soft loans ??? there's also news about 4 more F-22 frigates


Kingdom kiss din kaam aye ga two frigates will do multiple duties.



monitor said:


> pshamim of pakdef telling this


Its been a while since i heard from him..



Dr. Stranglove said:


> 6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this


Most likely one of our greatest enemies, as per some.



Czar786 said:


> Saud finance like they are doing in egypt .pakistan is going to benefit and will provide security for saud house hold.


They have always been providing security of Al-Saud family.



rockstar08 said:


> Relax , saudi's are paying nothing , those deals are planned from years .. its just Navy is looking for money , maybe now givt is slowly providing them


Navy has been facing funding problems the deal of F-22Ps done two years earlier still awaits completion. So there will be something coming from somewhere. A mix of own,saudi and Chinese financing will be used. Pakistan's own fiscal space is very shrunk amid huge amount of funds being spent on internal security related operations.


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## sonicboom

ISLAMABAD: Naval officials informed the Standing Committee on Defence Monday that the federal government has endorsed a summary to get eight submarines from China.

Pakistan's military has long been a major importer of defence equipment, particularly from key ally China.

After the Cold War ended Pakistan began to deepen defence and economic ties with China.

The committee was informed that Secretary of the Economic Affairs division Muhammad Saleem Sethi would be leaving for China tomorrow where the issue is expected to come under discussion.

The officials also said that the national security committee will give the final nod to go ahead with the plan to get eight submarines from China.

"Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines," officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.

They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members' concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality.They said there was no such issue at hand as JF-17 has proven to be a world class military jet.

The officials informed the standing committee that Pakistan's defence relations with Russia were also improving.

On the other hand, there appeared to be a divide among committee members whether Pakistan should send troops to Saudi Arabia.

Defence Secretary Lieutenant General (retd) Alam Khattak said that the Pakistan Army would abide by the government's decision on whether to send troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

This was the first time that the defence secretary spelled out the official stance of the Pakistan Army on sending troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

His brief comment came in response to a volley of questions by committee members as to whether military troops would be sent to the Saudi kingdom.

Chairman Sheikh Rohail Asghar maintained that the Pakistan Army should chase terrorists regardless of their location but women members belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) and Awami National Party (ANP) had a different point of view.

Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## roxen

boke said:


> 从一个中国人的视觉来看，曾经比较过巴基斯坦和印度的海军力量，客观的说，巴基斯坦的海军比印度还有很大差距，只能追究不对称的平衡，比如说加强潜艇和反潜力量，加强空对海、地对海的打击能力，这样才能应对印度多得多得海军力量威胁。作为中国的忠实朋友，中国永远愿意做巴基斯坦的后盾！


Ohh really.... i dnt understand anything..


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## HttpError

Rafi said:


> Have heard from a very good source, that the miniaturized reactor/naval propulsion system and the various electrical systems have recently completed a key testing and reliability test, brothers assisted with various technical assistance.
> 
> It is all coming on line - with a version of S3, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.
> 
> Congratulations to the whole nation, for the effective birth of Pakistan Navy Strategic Force Command.
> NSFC and our Second Strike Capability.
> 
> Pakistan Paindabad.



Pakistan Zindabad


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## Muhammad Omar

roxen said:


> Ohh really.... i dnt understand anything..



google translator use krlo


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## Georgeclark

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No kiddo we have 5 subs (3 with AIP) + 8 more AIP subs and more .. All these apart from midget subs (Also armed) that are in use with SSGN.
> 
> 
> That 13 subs 11 with AIP .. Meanwhile not a single indian sin has AIP and they tend to explode while in harbour.


From when did Pakistan have 13 subs ?? Can you please enlighten me. Or Just day dreaming


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## VelocuR

boke said:


> 从一个中国人的视觉来看，曾经比较过巴基斯坦和印度的海军力量，客观的说，巴基斯坦的海军比印度还有很大差距，只能追究不对称的平衡，比如说加强潜艇和反潜力量，加强空对海、地对海的打击能力，这样才能应对印度多得多得海军力量威胁。作为中国的忠实朋友，中国永远愿意做巴基斯坦的后盾！



Translation:

From a visual point of view of the Chinese people , who compared the Pakistani and Indian naval forces , objectively speaking , the Navy still a big gap in Pakistan than India , asymmetrical balance can only be investigated , such as strengthening the submarine and anti-submarine forces , strengthening the empty sea , ground -to-sea combat capability , so as to cope with the threat of India 's naval forces have much more. As a loyal friend of China , China always willing to do the backing of Pakistan !



Pakistan know its navy is backward and obsolete way behind.

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## Red Wolf

rockstar08 said:


> Its all about Money , you throw some Dollars and see Angela dance for you
> you got cash , you can buy it ..

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## notorious_eagle

rockstar08 said:


> i knew that it would have happen ... *but German U214 are better *...



That ship has sailed, they won't allow us to integrate Cruise Missiles on them, thus they have been rejected.

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## rockstar08

notorious_eagle said:


> That ship has sailed, they won't allow us to integrate Cruise Missiles on them, thus they have been rejected.



well they are considering Subs from UK, France and Germany ... France already say no , and Germans dont allow us to put CM on it ... that leave us with only Uk , do you think they have any potent disel electric sub which PN can buy ?? or we have no other option but Chinese one ?

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## notorious_eagle

rockstar08 said:


> well they are considering Subs from UK, France and Germany ... France already say no , and Germans dont allow us to put CM on it ... that leave us with only Uk , do you think they have any potent disel electric sub which PN can buy ?? or we have no other option but Chinese one ?



Most like a negotiating tactic

We are going for Chinese options which will be customized to suit our needs.

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## rockstar08

notorious_eagle said:


> Most like a negotiating tactic
> 
> We are going for Chinese options which will be customized to suit our needs.



but dont you think its a bit odd to disclosed to have a order of 8 subs ?? 
i mean to me its a bit strange news ... i mean for navy like PN , this is a huge order ..


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## notorious_eagle

rockstar08 said:


> but dont you think its a bit odd to disclosed to have a order of 8 subs ??
> i mean to me its a bit strange news ... i mean for navy like PN , this is a huge order ..



Look at the pace with which the Indian Navy is growing. It is far more cheaper for China to subsidize Pakistan's Navy to keep the Indian Navy busy, rather than dedicate a force to counter the growing might of the Indian Navy.

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## rockstar08

notorious_eagle said:


> Look at the pace with which the Indian Navy is growing. It is far more cheaper for China to subsidize Pakistan's Navy to keep the Indian Navy busy, rather than dedicate a force to counter the growing might of the Indian Navy.



well PN compare to its enemy is very weak ... not too much but they are ..
so as they are ready to operate Gwader and other newly made bases , they need a big fleet , type 21 are over used already ... they need to retire soon ... OHP has no future in PN cause of Americans ...

we have left with one option and that China ,either for Subs or for DDG's or Frigates .. 
as many members here talk about improved version of Yuan class , so i am guess we may go for AIP .. and ability to fire Babur ..

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## Ali kazmi

What are the options when we talk about chinese and western submarines?


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## Viper0011.

Muhammad Omar said:


> Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....
> Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....
> Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....



I've been saying it for a while, watch the expansion of the Pakistani Navy. With shore lines expanded to add another few hundred miles, over $ 16 billion in the savings account and by the end of this December, an 8% growth over the two years in GDP, allows Pakistan to go spend about 3-4 billion on the NAVY. This is all coming to reality with the expansion of Gawader port!!



Dr. Stranglove said:


> but i dont understand we have 3 augostas 90s 2 A.70s(soon to be retired)
> *8 chinese subs are enough we would have 11 submarineswhy are we looking for used subs from other countries? how big a fleet they intend to build*



With growing economy, growing military will come. India, at some point in the near future, will have about 20 subs facing the Pakistani side. So with a growing economy, you could afford about 15-16, that's the number they'll be targeting for over the 5-7 years.

I also mentioned before that PN would have about 15-20 newer Frigates and Destroyers. When I wrote it last year, the Indian members made fun of me and argued the "financials" didn't exist to make BOATS, let alone expensive military hardware!!! Here's the answer to those people.

Plus, Pakistan now has a few extra hundred miles worth of waters to cover for, which it can use to disperse its Navy and expand the distance and sphere of assets. 

Which will make it much harder for the IN to do a concentrated narrow attack on a smaller area like before around Karachi, resulting in more damage. 

So PN is becoming a bigger naval power than before and its focus will be India and Iran specific, not just India specific. Good threat assessment on PN's end, and good job by the current government, in providing funding and financials to purchase these items!!

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## Kompromat

Chinese sub will have elements of Augostas and some of new capabilities will be added. I don't think we'll buy old subs.

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## Manticore

DJ Crudept said:


> 8* s20 or qing or yuan ?


China revealed a scaled-down version of Type 039A [yuan] submarine designated as S20, specially intended for export. The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20

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## Kompromat

Welcome back @sonicboom


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## Thorough Pro

No one is paying for any of the stuff. We have enough funds to pay for all that, and btw its not going to be paid upfront tomorrow morning. Economy has improved, is on the right track and will improve further. Let the government work, things will improve further.



Azeri440 said:


> I am gonna guess Saudis are paying



All thanks to a sensible, patriotic government.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> The fk.







Georgeclark said:


> Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.



and sinks them in it's own harbour! 

any problem?



Czar786 said:


> Saud finance like they are doing in egypt .pakistan is going to benefit and will provide security for saud house hold.

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## tarrar

Subs from China that was already on the table, glad to see the deal has finally gone through.

I hope PN gets subs from European countries.


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## Georgeclark

Thorough Pro said:


> and sinks them in it's own harbour!
> 
> any problem?



One incident and so much for it, shows Pakistan quite knows its not near Indian navy right now.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Georgeclark said:


> One incident and so much for it, shows Pakistan quite knows its not near Indian navy right now.



1 accident?  search this forum n see for yourself...


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## SQ8

Manticore said:


> China revealed a scaled-down version of Type 039A [yuan] submarine designated as S20, specially intended for export. The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20


No scaling down here, this is going to be a single silver bullet deterrent. Think Israel and their dolphins.

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## Ammyy

Thorough Pro said:


> and sinks them in it's own harbour!
> 
> any problem?



Well in big forces like ours these accidents are not new.

China Nuclear Sub Accident? | The Diplomat
70 die in Chinese submarine disaster | World news | The Guardian


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Red Wolf said:


>



No missile integration = useless subs.

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## black-hawk_101

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Why would we buy old agostas 70s when we can can build agosta 90Bs under licsense (they came with complete ToT - built at Karachi Shipyard).


Its better for PN to join in with KSA on their plan of JV with France on SMX Submarine which is about 6500-7000 Tons and may be PN and KSA can utilize Nuclear Reactor in it.

Also they can make two smaller versions of it like:
1100-1500 Tons for Coastal patrol and attack on 4 dimensions.
110-210 Tons for Special Force Roles


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## Manticore

black-hawk_101 said:


> Its better for PN to join in with KSA on their plan of JV with France on SMX Submarine which is about 6500-7000 Tons and may be PN and KSA can utilize Nuclear Reactor in it.


would they allow torpedo tube modifications for us to use nuclear warheads? France has refused to sell subs to us let alone offer modifications
@Rashid Mahmood


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## fatman17

Naval budget is 12 boats. They will not go beyond that number. The ATR news is to buy 3 aircraft in total and upgrade them as MPA aircraft. I have not heard anything about used subs.

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## black-hawk_101

Manticore said:


> would they allow torpedo tube modifications for us to use nuclear warheads? France has refused to sell subs to us let alone offer modifications
> @Rashid Mahmood


I don't think so France will say that to PN.


----------



## A2Z

JD_In said:


> yes, both are in desperate state ...Pak needs more fund to balance its defense vis a vis India but cant source that fund from its own economy..on the other hand, Saudi has fund but lacks offensive credible deterrence against its enemy like Iran who is close to acquiring Nukes....so, there is high probability that Pak will some day export its Nukes/Tech to KSA!


Well these are just theories like 9/11 was an inside job. Yes Saudi Arabia and Iran are not on good terms but that doesn't mean Pakistan will sell their nukes Even if for a moment we think that yes Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have a deal of such sort, well so does NATO (NATO nuclear weapons sharing). I respect your thinking but that's not what is gonna happen Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are on good terms since the beginning and there are many things which Saudi do for Pakistan like oil on subsidized rates. The purchases were supposed to made long time ago but were delayed due to economic conditions. Now when economy is getting better we are seeing the effects.


----------



## Mughal-Prince

farhan_9909 said:


> I would have instead invested some of the amount into nuclear submarine
> 
> 4xconventional submarine
> 1xSSBN



Did you read a few months back about a Submarine deal in which each will cost 1-bil $ ??
Well which DE / AIP submarine in Chinese arsenal may cost around 1-bil of Amreki $ lars biradar  ??
So far only German or Japanese DE / (FC Based) AIP Submarines may cost around 1 billion US$.
So I believe this Sh!t is about some SSBN  but cant say any thing surely .


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Naval budget is 12 boats. They will not go beyond that number. The ATR news is to buy 3 aircraft in total and upgrade them as MPA aircraft. I have not heard anything about used subs.



12 submarines or ships? And ATR......are they planning on buying 3 ATR on top of 2 already in service....or 3 in total?


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## Mughal-Prince

Donatello said:


> 12 submarines or ships? And ATR......are they planning on buying 3 ATR on top of 2 already in service....or 3 in total?



8 Submarines from China and 4 from western source and total of 5 ATR as far I heard.

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## nana41

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Half of those subs are not operational .. Others are antiques .. 1 or 2 were blown to shit.


Never under estimate ENEMY.Only ISI knows the true numbers and it's preparedness.

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## Stealth

inko ye paisay day kon raha hey in chezoon kiliye :S

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## PWFI

Stealth said:


> inko ye paisay day kon raha hey in chezoon kiliye :S


"doun't wery abouut dat habibi"

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## rockstar08

Stealth said:


> inko ye paisay day kon raha hey in chezoon kiliye :S



finally I broke my Gullak

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## Mitro

Thorough Pro said:


> No one is paying for any of the stuff. We have enough funds to pay for all that, and btw its not going to be paid upfront tomorrow morning. Economy has improved, is on the right track and will improve further. Let the government work, things will improve further.
> 
> 
> 
> All thanks to a sensible, patriotic government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and sinks them in it's own harbour!
> 
> any problem?



Pakistan have enough resources to pay but because of political mismanagement and corruption they just filled their Swiss bank account

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## Green Buck

Chinese


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## Rahil khan

Green Buck said:


> Chinese


God created the world and the rest was made in China meri jan....Before laughing check out your processor whether it's Chinese not....!!

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## ajpirzada

*Pakistan nears deal to buy 8 Chinese submarines*
Farhan Bokhari in Quetta and Charles Clover in Beijing





©EPA
The most expensive Chinese arms export deal in history appeared set to go ahead on Wednesday after Pakistan’s government approved a deal to buy eight submarines from Beijing.

Although officials from Pakistan’s navy neither gave a price tag nor revealed the types of submarines being pursued, they confirmed a decision “in principle” during a hearing of the defence committee in the lower house of parliament in Islamabad.

*A former senior Pakistan navy officer with knowledge of the negotiations told the Financial Times the contract could be worth $4bn-$5bn.* “China has agreed once again to step in to fill a major strategic gap,” he said. “It was about time we placed an order.”

However, Chinese analysts valued the deal at less than half that amount.

The estimate of $4bn-$5bn is on par with the estimated cost of six French submarines bought by India in 2005, which cost $4bn-$4.5bn when they were delivered in 2010, according to Siemon Wezeman, an expert on the international arms market at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

Mr Wezeman said the Pakistan deal was likely to be China’s biggest arms sale, eclipsing a deal for 50 JF-17 fighter jets bought by Pakistan in 2010 for more than $1bn.

Islamabad has long been Beijing’s top arms customer, driving China’s emergence as a major exporter of military hardware. Pakistan bought more than 40 per cent of China’s arms exports over the past five years, according to research by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

China’s arms exports surged 143 per cent over the same period, making it the world’s third-largest arms exporter, behind only the US and Russia.

Defence analysts in Islamabad say Beijing may have agreed to the submarines deal to help counter the perceived threat from India, amid fears the country is building its navy to claim a presence in the Pacific.

“China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area,” said Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat. “As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

Ian Storey, a security expert at the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore, agreed that there was clear strategic rationale for the deal.

“India has been modernising and expanding its navy for over a decade now,” he said. “While Pakistan can never close the gap between its own and India’s conventional armed forces, submarines would provide the Pakistan Navy with a credible deterrent.”

Other senior navy officers say Pakistan’s current fleet of five French Agosta submarines, including two ageing vessels built in the 1970s, will by the next decade be insufficient to meet the challenge posed by the planned naval expansion of India, Pakistan’s neighbour and main foe.

Hasan Askari Rizvi, a Pakistani military expert, cautioned that it was too early to say the deal marked a deepening of Beijing’s already strong defence and security ties with Islamabad. “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2c22012-d845-11e4-ba53-00144feab7de.html#axzz3W4BQOQdH

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## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines'



*
China is marketing the Type 041 SSK overseas as the S20. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen

The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

*A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told IHS Jane's that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".*

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told _IHS Jane's_ it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison _IHS Jane's_ DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

*Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.*

Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines' - IHS Jane's 360

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## Karl

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2c22012-d845-11e4-ba53-00144feab7de.html#axzz3W4wdyv9L

Farhan Bokhari in Quetta and Charles Clover in Beijing

The most expensive Chinese arms export deal in history appeared set to go ahead on Wednesday after Pakistan’s government approved a deal to buy eight submarines from Beijing.

Although officials from Pakistan’s navy neither gave a price tag nor revealed the types of submarines being pursued, they confirmed a decision “in principle” during a hearing of the defence committee in the lower house of parliament in Islamabad.

A former senior Pakistan navy officer with knowledge of the negotiations told the Financial Times the contract could be worth $4bn-$5bn. “China has agreed once again to step in to fill a major strategic gap,” he said. “It was about time we placed an order.”

However, Chinese analysts valued the deal at less than half that amount.

The estimate of $4bn-$5bn is on par with the estimated cost of six French submarines bought by India in 2005, which cost $4bn-$4.5bn when they were delivered in 2010, according to Siemon Wezeman, an expert on the international arms market at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

Mr Wezeman said the Pakistan deal was likely to be China’s biggest arms sale, eclipsing a deal for 50 JF-17 fighter jets bought by Pakistan in 2010 for more than $1bn.

Islamabad has long been Beijing’s top arms customer, driving China’s emergence as a major exporter of military hardware. Pakistan bought more than 40 per cent of China’s arms exports over the past five years, according to research by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

China’s arms exports surged 143 per cent over the same period, making it the world’s third-largest arms exporter, behind only the US and Russia.

Defence analysts in Islamabad say Beijing may have agreed to the submarines deal to help counter the perceived threat from India, amid fears the country is building its navy to claim a presence in the Pacific.

“China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area,” said Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat. “As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

Ian Storey, a security expert at the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore, agreed that there was clear strategic rationale for the deal.

“India has been modernising and expanding its navy for over a decade now,” he said. “While Pakistan can never close the gap between its own and India’s conventional armed forces, submarines would provide the Pakistan Navy with a credible deterrent.”

Other senior navy officers say Pakistan’s current fleet of five French Agosta submarines, including two ageing vessels built in the 1970s, will by the next decade be insufficient to meet the challenge posed by the planned naval expansion of India, Pakistan’s neighbour and main foe.

Hasan Askari Rizvi, a Pakistani military expert, cautioned that it was too early to say the deal marked a deepening of Beijing’s already strong defence and security ties with Islamabad. “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”


April Fools?


----------



## I M Sikander

Its not just the subs
There is a lot more to that 4 f22 frigrates. survaillance Planes for PN.


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## NaMaloom

SrNair said:


> Look like SSBN or SSN is like some shop candy .
> You should have at least 1 billion $ project for an SSN or SSBN .And maintanence and safety is also damn expensive .




You would know about 'shop candy' wouldn't you? Because India did lease an Akula from Russia even when it had no expertise of its own to build a nuclear sub. Pakistan can easily do just the same, lease a nuclear sub from China for 10yrs and learn the ins and outs while working on an indigenous one.


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## Malik Alashter

So, is the cost of one sub is 250 million$.


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## IrbiS

*Govt approves purchase of 8 Chinese submarines, six ATRs aircraft for Pakistan Navy*
Army to follow policy of govt about Saudi-Yemen situation: defence secretary







*ISLAMABAD* – National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence was told on Tuesday that the army would follow the policy of the government relating to Saudi–Yemen conflict.


The meeting was also told that the government has approved the purchase of eight submarines from China while negotiations are also being held with different countries including Germany, Britain and France for the purchase of second hand submarines. Meeting of the standing committee was held here on Tuesday under the chairmanship of Shaikh Rohail Asghar. It was attended by the secretary defence, the additional secretary defence, the director general military land and other senior officials.


Additional Defence secretary Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan said that National Security Committee has approved in principle the project to acquire eight Chinese submarines. Financial negotiations for the same are in advance stages. He further said that Pakistan navy requirement of special funds of $ 294 million to upgrade/induct ATRs aircraft has been approved by Ministry of Defence in consultation with the finance division. Summary has been submitted for approval of National Security Committee.


To a question, he informed that Pakistan Navy is also participating in the operation to bring the Pakistani Nationals from Yemen and for this purpose one ship of Pakistan Navy has already been moved towards Yemen and the second ship is ready for departure. The defence secretary said that different options are under consideration for evacuation of Pakistanis in Yemen. One option is to take the Pakistanis to Djibouti and then bring them by air to Pakistan.


There were heated exchanges between Pakistan Muslim League-N’s Junaid Anwar Chaudhry and Muttahida Qaumi Movement’s Kashwar Zehra over Pakistan’s support to Saudi Arabia. Chairman of the Committee said that Pakistan army should follow those who have destroyed peace in Pakistan and other Islamic countries. The committee members expressed their strong resentment for not being invited to Pakistan Day Parade.


Mahmood Khan Achakzai said that matter of acquisition of land in Swat for establishment of Cantonment be settled with the local people as there is great concern because their crops are being destroyed. The standing committee formed a sub committee comprising Mahmood Khan Achakzai, Musarrat Zeb and Saeed Khan to help settle the matter while Director General Military Lands promised to submit a report soon to the committee.


Govt approves purchase of 8 Chinese submarines, six ATRs aircraft for Pakistan Navy


----------



## CONNAN

*Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs*

The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informed the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.

Details on the type of vessels or their price are murky. _IHS Jane’s_ quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”

According to _IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships_ the Type 041 _Yuan_-class is a, “as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessels allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons.

However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) allegededly signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 _Qing_-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal fell through.

Still other media source note the construction of submarines in Pakistan based on the _Qing_-class displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

The procurement of a new fleet of submarines will be one of Islamabad’s most expensive weapon deals of the last few decades. Estimated total costs range between $4 to 5 billion. _IHS Jane_’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is ”difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the _Financial Times_ that there still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.

Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs | The Diplomat


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## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> The fk.


Which of nurol's armored vehicles are we producing.


SBD-3 said:


> Kingdom kiss din kaam aye ga two frigates will do multiple duties.
> 
> 
> Its been a while since i heard from him..
> 
> 
> Most likely one of our greatest enemies, as per some.
> 
> 
> They have always been providing security of Al-Saud family.
> 
> 
> Navy has been facing funding problems the deal of F-22Ps done two years earlier still awaits completion. So there will be something coming from somewhere. A mix of own,saudi and Chinese financing will be used. Pakistan's own fiscal space is very shrunk amid huge amount of funds being spent on internal security related operations.


Honestly we shouldnt give a damn even if sudia gave us the money because the reason that we will buy this shit that PN needs to make it a good adversary for the IN is because of them. So we should be thankful even if it pisses iran off because at the end of the day it's beter for our national interest.

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## ziaulislam

Muhammad Omar said:


> i was thinking of this too.... Help them and they'll give you $$$$$$
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's because our sea limits increased from 200 nm to 350 nm


yup as evident by the eygptian case..
yemen problem is getting worse and nightmare for Pakistan..its ending up in situation when there are no neutral sides...already all of the arab world and turkey have sided with saudis.. i guess iran over did it this time by supporting a minority to over throw a well established majority govt, even providing them with air support


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wolfhound said:


> Which of nurol's armored vehicles are we producing.
> 
> Honestly we shouldnt give a damn even if sudia gave us the money because the reason that we will buy this shit that PN needs to make it a good adversary for the IN is because of them. So we should be thankful even if it pisses iran off because at the end of the day it's beter for our national interest.

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## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 210496
> View attachment 210497


I think i am in love. Whats its name and specifications other than B-7 level protection.


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## Muhammad Omar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 210496
> View attachment 210497



we producing these?


----------



## ziaulislam

Tipu7 said:


> Judging from ''shopping list'' of Pakistan .............. looks like we will soon jump in Saudia Arabia and then we will have what we want.....................


honestly, eygpt received over 10 billion dollars in Aid and promise of over 13 billion dollars for new capital city..

for us jumping in will be suicide even if we get similar amount of $$$..because we have 10% shia population that is extremely loyal to Iran no matter what type of policies iran continue down the line..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wolfhound said:


> I think i am in love. Whats its name and specifications other than B-7 level protection.


Edger .. Can be armed with HMGs (14.7 etc),grenade launchers etc - remote controlled weapon system etc.I'm

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## VelocuR

Is this Pakistan made new armored vehicle after blue Mohafiz? @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Thorough Pro

sink some more to grow big, how stupid is that logic?




Ammyy said:


> Well in big forces like ours these accidents are not new.
> 
> China Nuclear Sub Accident? | The Diplomat
> 70 die in Chinese submarine disaster | World news | The Guardian

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VelocuR said:


> Is this Pakistan made new armored vehicle after blue Mohafiz? @DESERT FIGHTER



Nurol Edjer!

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## Dr. Strangelove

Malik Alashter said:


> So, is the cost of one sub is 250 million$.


400-500 because it would be a sub specifically modified for our requirments.......they would be our dophins

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## SrNair

Talk to me only if you y have resilent. knowledge about the subject.Our ATV project has around 40 years old that was just sanctioned only after 1974.
The leased sub ,only for 3 years, in 1990s was under partial Soviet control .where our officers couldbnt even go to nuke reactor area.
Of course we got some Russian help but only through the consultation.
Our new SSK and SSBN are already in development.
And atfter all the economy of India is way different than yours.


NaMaloom said:


> You would know about 'shop candy' wouldn't you? Because India did lease an Akula from Russia even when it had no expertise of its own to build a nuclear sub. Pakistan can easily do just the same, lease a nuclear sub from China for 10yrs and learn the ins and outs while working on an indigenous one.

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## Screambowl

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/583379252751515648


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## VelocuR

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nurol Edjer!



We haven't bought it, correct?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

VelocuR said:


> We haven't bought it, correct?



With ToT.. During IDEAS 2015.

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## VelocuR

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> With ToT.. During IDEAS 2015.



Accha, really. you mean IDEAS2014 last year, Turkey and Pakistan signed the deal ?

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## Tipu7

ziaulislam said:


> honestly, eygpt received over 10 billion dollars in Aid and promise of over 13 billion dollars for new capital city..
> 
> for us jumping in will be suicide even if we get similar amount of $$$..because we have 10% shia population that is extremely loyal to Iran no matter what type of policies iran continue down the line..


People living in Pakistan and loyal to Iran/Saudia are problem. Pakistan interests are most important. While rest of Islamic World (except Iran,Syria,Iraq) is supporting Arab coalition then Pakistan must do the same...................

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## Green Buck

Rahil khan said:


> God created the world and the rest was made in China meri jan....Before laughing check out your processor whether it's Chinese not....!!



Its Norwegian


----------



## alimobin memon

Muhammad Omar said:


> we producing these?


Police has these in name of defenders


----------



## aqdus

Dr. Stranglove said:


> 6 ATR aircrafts for 290 million dollars who the fs paying for all this


HEHE you know that It's name start with a big S


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

*Chinese Type 041 Yuan Class Submarine*








Chinese Type 041 Yuan Class SSK is a new generation of the People's Liberation Army Navy.





The Type 041 submarine uses the tail design of the Type 039 Song class SSK which have 4 diving planes.




Chinese Type 041 Yuan Class Submarine has six 533 mm torpedo tubes which can be used to launch torpedoes YJ-83 (C-803) anti-ship missiles.



YJ-83 (C-803) anti-ship missiles is equipped with 165 kg high-explosive warhead and it has a range of 180~250 km at a cruising speed of Mach 0.9.

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## aqdus

Azeri440 said:


> sudden news about 8 subs and 4 frigates which together would add up to 2 - 3 billion USD
> I wonder if we'll hear about more sudden major plans.


I would love to hear that Pakistan is buying new jets, destroyers. HELL YEAH 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> Burraq
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Jf-17 BLK II
> 
> The fk.


Why you use F word well i am surprizingly happy abour it


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh



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## Stealth

*Here is the latest YUAN CLASS 041 TYPEfor what Pakistan is going for...*

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## razgriz19

Stealth said:


> *Here is the latest YUAN CLASS 041 TYPEfor what Pakistan is going for...*
> 
> View attachment 210599



you're joking right?
That is China's top ballistic missile carrier boat. Not Yuan.

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## VelocuR

Is this S20 aka Type 041 SSK very noisy? 

I learned Qing is more quieter than noisy Yuan. 



Saifullah Sani said:


> *Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines'
> 
> 
> 
> *
> China is marketing the Type 041 SSK overseas as the S20. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen
> 
> The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.
> 
> In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.
> 
> The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.
> 
> *A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told IHS Jane's that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".*
> 
> The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.
> 
> Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.
> 
> The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.
> 
> Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told _IHS Jane's_ it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison _IHS Jane's_ DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.
> 
> *Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.*
> 
> Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines' - IHS Jane's 360


----------



## SuperSubrayan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....
> 
> Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....
> 
> Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....



If true I expect more reaction from India. Should do the same to SCS nations . Including Taiwan . And help IRAN with our new futuristic war ships . Openly or covertly don't matter . Because when India work hard to buy weapons and we have our problems to be taken care of . But Chinese comes and keep giving freebies to Pakistan which openly choose the path of self destruction path. This 8 submarine will give Pakistan a much needed advantages over surprised Indian fleet groups


----------



## Stealth

razgriz19 said:


> you're joking right?
> That is China's top ballistic missile carrier boat. Not Yuan.



Chinese PLAN Latest Type 041Class Yuan Diesel-Electric Submarines SSK - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> 12 submarines or ships? And ATR......are they planning on buying 3 ATR on top of 2 already in service....or 3 in total?



Boat is a slang for subs. The ATR number is confusing as of now. The navy plan is to eventually replace all the F27s in its inventory with ATRs



Stealth said:


> Chinese PLAN Latest Type 041Class Yuan Diesel-Electric Submarines SSK - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> View attachment 210605



Export designation S20. Cost estimate with western AIP and sensors 400 to 500 mill $ per boat


----------



## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> Boat is a slang for subs. The ATR number is confusing as of now. The navy plan is to eventually replace all the F27s in its inventory with ATRs
> 
> 
> 
> Export designation S20. Cost estimate with western AIP and sensors 400 to 500 mill $ per boat



Why not we go for vertical one ?


----------



## fatman17

Contract still has to be signed with China offering a soft term loan.


----------



## aqdus

Georgeclark said:


> One incident and so much for it, shows Pakistan quite knows its not near Indian navy right now.


Now thats joke of the day.........

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## ice_man

this is not the first time this decade such news has come out. first it was the U BOATS then the chinese subs then the french and now back to the chinese!! 

nothing is final all is speculation.


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## aqdus

Stealth said:


> inko ye paisay day kon raha hey in chezoon kiliye :S


Bhai AAM khain Guthliyan kyun ginte hain



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 210496
> View attachment 210497


dont tell me this beauty is the one 



ice_man said:


> this is not the first time this decade such news has come out. first it was the U BOATS then the chinese subs then the french and now back to the chinese!!
> 
> nothing is final all is speculation.


yup but this is confirmed.

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## Manticore

China’s Submarine Fleet Evolution


----------



## Thorough Pro

8 new subs
4 new frigates
6 new maritime patrol aircrafts
8 new cutters
2 new missile boats
successful test completion of miniaturized nuclear reactor and propulsion 

all part of a comprehensive 2nd strike capability. We can expect to see test launches of new/modified versions of medium range missile tests in the days to come. by the end of 2020 we will have a fully functional and robust 2nd strike capability.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines'*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad and James Hardy, London* - IHS Jane's Navy International
31 March 2015







China is marketing the Type 041 SSK overseas as the S20. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen
The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told _IHS Jane's_ that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told _IHS Jane's_ it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison _IHS Jane's_ DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options **ihs.com/contact*


----------



## daring dude

That is good news, but i don't think that is enough, as IN have robust-ed their sales from last 1 or 2 decades... 
we should have to add up some Frigates, destroyers, Aircraft Carriers (as pak dont have any) or some of the Below warships... as a part from Pak Army and Pak airforce's , Pak Navy is not much strong & Advanced with Arsenal and Warships...




Aircraft Carriers
The current symbol of naval power on the high seas.



Submarines
The most-feared ocean-going vessel today.



Battleships
Steel-clad kings of the sea from a bygone era.



Amphibious Assault
Supporting offshore assault through specialized design.



Amphibious Vessels
By land or sea, these watercraft care not where they tread.



Cruisers
Multi-role vessels finding less use today.



Destroyers
Combined speed and firepower in support of the fleet.



Frigates
The general-purpose ship since the Age of Sail.


----------



## daring dude

Corvettes
A more compact footprint, yet no less lethal.



Mine Warfare
Critical surface vessels in any war environment.



Patrol Craft
Agility and speed for protection of offshore interests.



Special Forces
Because special people require special tools.



Age of Sail
The Tall Ship reigned for hundreds of years.



Ironclads
After the age of sail, preceding the era of steel.



Cargo Ships
Charged with handling the logistical side of things.

NAVAL SHIP CATEGORIES


----------



## qamar1990

Georgeclark said:


> Out of those 16, 10 are operational and India is making scorpions too, project 75i and Arihant, new class SSbN's and SSN's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Pakistan have now ?? 8 submarines out of which 3 are midget and all under 2100 tons and 10 frigates to the most. Sometimes its good to appreciate what your neighbor has done better than you. Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.


why would we appreciate anything good for an enemy nation?? especially anything military related.


----------



## daring dude

Appreciated,, as Indian Navy is far better and robust than Pak Navy...


----------



## Wolfhound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Edger .. Can be armed with HMGs (14.7 etc),grenade launchers etc - remote controlled weapon system etc.I'm


Ejder Yalçın 4X4, satisfies the operational requirements of military units and security forces in rural and urban areas. Ejder Yalçın 4X4 is a dynamic, agile, modular, versatile, easy care and low maintenance combat vehicle having high ballistic protection including mine blast under all environmental conditions and off-road

By its high payload capacity up to 4 tons, various types of weapon systems and payloads can be integrated to Ejder Yalçın 4X4. Ejder Yalçın 4X4 is an ideal platform for various applications such as “Reconnaissance”, “Command and Control” and “Homeland Security”. Ergonomic design makes operations easy.



Outstanding Protection Features;


High level ballistic protection


 




 


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Carrying Capacity;


Great payload capacity, up to 4 tons.
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*Optional Features;*


Rescue Winch.
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Optionally;

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- 40 mm automatic grenade launcher

















Thanks @DESERT FIGHTER i found all the info on it. Have we started producing these yet and are they going to become our humvee and replace all our light utility vehicles? And here's the link for it EJDER YALCIN 4X4 Armoured Combat Vehicle


----------



## Mutakalim

SuperSubrayan said:


> If true I expect more reaction from India. Should do the same to SCS nations . Including Taiwan . And help IRAN with our new futuristic war ships . Openly or covertly don't matter . Because when India work hard to buy weapons and we have our problems to be taken care of . But Chinese comes and keep giving freebies to Pakistan which openly choose the path of self destruction path. This 8 submarine will give Pakistan a much needed advantages over surprised Indian fleet groups


India should supply Iran its latest indigenous technology


----------



## Asmar Hussain

Prime minister gives approval for buying 8 submarines


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's Regular Press Conference on April 2, 2015*

*Q: According to media reports, Pakistan will buy 8 submarines from China. Is it true?*
A: China and Pakistan are neighbors boasting traditional friendship, and the two sides maintain normal cooperation in the military industry and arms trade. Relevant cooperation adheres to international treaties, and complies with the consistent principles of China's military products export.
*Q: General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong of the Communist Party of Vietnam is said to visit China soon. Please tell us more about the agenda of and China's expectations for this visit.*
A: Vietnam is a very important and lose neighbor of China. We attach great importance to developing bilateral relations with Vietnam. We are ready to maintain high-level exchanges, strengthen the friendly and mutually beneficial cooperation in various fields and ensure the sound and stable development of the bilateral relations. As for the specific agenda of the visit you mentioned, I don't have any information to offer to you at this moment.
*Q: First, media reports say that a Pakistani government official is in China today to talk about the details of purchasing submarines from China. Please confirm this. Second, the Pakistani side announced that President Xi Jinping would visit Pakistan in recent days. Can you confirm this? What is the specific date of the visit?*
A: On your first question, I have no information in this regard.
On your second question, China and Pakistan are close neighbors boasting traditional friendship and all-weather partners. The close high-level exchanges between the two countries have been leading the way for the growth of the bilateral relations. President Xi Jinping looks forward to paying a state visit to China at an early date within this year, and the two sides are in close communication on this. We hope and believe that this visit will further cement China-Pakistan friendship and deepen all-weather cooperation. As for the specific date of the visit, I have nothing to offer at this moment.





​*Q: When meeting with Sri Lankan President Sirisena last week, did President Xi Jinping propose a three-way meeting with India and Sri Lanka?*
A: On March 26, President Xi Jinping held talks with Sri Lankan President Sirisena, and the relevant information has been released. During the talks, the two sides spoke highly of the bilateral relationship, underscoring that efforts would be made to carry forward and maintain China-Sri Lanka friendliness,push forward the continuous, sound and stable development of the bilateral relations under the new circumstances and bring more benefits to the two countries and two peoples.
Both Sri Lanka and India are significant and friendly neighbors of China in South Asia. We hope for the sound development of China-Sri Lanka and China-India relations, and are happy to see the growing relationship between Sri Lanka and India. The good interactions and mutual reinforcement among the three pairs of relationship deliver benefits to the three countries,and contribute to peace, stability and common prosperity of the region. We are poised to make joint efforts with Sri Lanka and India to promote the sound interactions with each other.
*Q: Yesterday two US military jets landed at an air force base in Tainan because of a mechanical glitch. Does China have any comment on this?*
A: We have taken note of the relevant report, and have lodged solemn representations with the US side. China urges the US to abide by the one China policy and the principles enshrined in the three joint communiques between China and the US, prudently and properly handle relevant issues and prevent similar case from emerging again.
*Q: The negotiation on the Iranian nuclear issue on a comprehensive agreement is ongoing in Lausanne, Switzerland. How does China view the current situation?*
A: In the final stage of the Iranian nuclear talks, Foreign Minister Wang Yi made a special visit to Switzerland, where he exchanged in-depth views with his counterparts on a wide range of issues and discussed what should be done to resolve the focal issues.
In order to move forward the negotiation, Foreign Minister Wang Yi brought about a four-point proposal on the future negotiation. First, political guidance should be upheld. Second, all parties should meet each other halfway. Third, a step-by-step and reciprocal process should be followed. Fourth, a package solution should be pursued.
After years of negotiation, remarkable progress has been made to resolve the Iranian nuclear issue. As an important party to the talks, China has been playing a positive and constructive role in the negotiation. Now the negotiation has come to its final stage, which is like the race to the top when climbing a mountain and the home stretch when running a marathon. It is hoped that parties concerned can seize the opportunity and strive for a comprehensive agreement at an early date.




​*Q: The US government launched a new sanctions program to target individuals and groups outside the United States that use cyber attacks to threaten US foreign policy, national security or economic stability. Given that China is often regarded as the major source of cyber attacks against the US, how do you respond to this move?*
A: China firmly opposes and combats any form of cyber attack, and this stance remains consistent and clear. Cyber security bears on the common interests of all countries. Cyber attacks, usually launched across nations, are hard to trace back, thus requiring the common efforts of the international community through dialogue and cooperation on the basis of mutual respect and trust. China always disapproves one country's wilful use of sanctions on citizens and entities of another country following its domestic laws.
*Q: Spain has reportedly applied to join the Asian Infrastructure Bank (AIIB). Please confirm this.*
A: Please ask the multilateral interim secretariat of the AIIB for the specifics. As we have put it many times, we welcome the participation of any country as long as it is intended to join the AIIB.

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's Regular Press Conference on April 2, 2015

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## farhan_9909

I hope it is not s-20.

We need subs with displacements more than +3000t

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## MM_Haider

Image Credit: Department of Defense
*Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs*
Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.





By Franz-Stefan Gady
April 02, 2015
1.4k
159
9
*1.6k* Shares
*88*Comments
Yesterday, the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informedthe National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.

Details on the type of vessels or their price tag are murky. _IHS Jane’s_ quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”

According to _IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships_the Type 041 _Yuan_-class is,“a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessel allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons, according to public sources.

However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 _Qing_-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. _IHS Jane_’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the _Financial Times_ that there are still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

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## The SC

"the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China."
The deal was signed in 2011 for Qing class type 041 submarines, but it was for 6, they have apparently added 2 to the initial deal, maybe to be made in Pakistan. These are big ones of 4000t to 6000t submerged, with AIP and an all electric propulsion system. If the price is at least 500 million $ per submarine, one should expect them to be some of the most sophisticated submarines in the world, since this is the same price as the German Type 214, but made in China, meaning they must have something much better than the type 2014, and sold to Pakistan at this price means also that they are very special submarines made to order by Pakistan...


*Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine*





Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine was launched at Wuhan Shipyard last year. It is rumored that Type 041 Qing Class Submarines are fitted with flank sonar arrays and improved targeting system to effectively provide guidance to the long-range antiship missiles and land attack cruise missiles.

Qing Class Submarine features hull mounted retractable foreplanes and very large hydrodynamically streamlined sail.

Type 041 Qing Class submarines may also be able to house vertical launch tubes in its sail section to launch cruise missiles.

Submarine's submerged displacement is around 4,200t.






Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine | Chinese Military Review

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## Sulman Badshah

The SC said:


> "the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China."
> The deal was signed in 2011 for Qing class type 041 submarines, but it was for 6, they have apparently added 2 to the initial deal, maybe to be made in Pakistan. These are big ones of 4000t to 6000t submerged, with AIP and an all electric propulsion system. If the price is at least 500 million $ per submarine, one should expect them to be some of the most sophisticated submarines in the world, since this is the same price as the German Type 214, but made in China, meaning they must have something much better than the type 2014, and sold to Pakistan at this price means also that they are very special submarines made to order by Pakistan...
> 
> 
> *Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine was launched at Wuhan Shipyard last year. It is rumored that Type 041 Qing Class Submarines are fitted with flank sonar arrays and improved targeting system to effectively provide guidance to the long-range antiship missiles and land attack cruise missiles.
> 
> Qing Class Submarine features hull mounted retractable foreplanes and very large hydrodynamically streamlined sail.
> 
> Type 041 Qing Class submarines may also be able to house vertical launch tubes in its sail section to launch cruise missiles.
> 
> Submarine's submerged displacement is around 4,200t.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine | Chinese Military Review


there wasn't any deal signed in 2011 .... 

and Qing class was only a test bud 

Pakistan is going for S20 submarines which is available for export .. these submarines will be equipped with AIP And SLCM


----------



## AsianLion

Great News...

I think Pakistan also needs to buy Nuclear and Ballistic Missile Type 092 / Type 094 subs from China, and German U-214 / U-216 subs...with these Chinese Type 041 / S20s.

Yes Qing Class is only a test bud....no updates yet.


----------



## Basel

There is already a thread on this topic so @WebMaster please merge both.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

here is the most important part in the news 



*media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”*


*So there will be 2 types of submarines project s26 and s30*

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## Skyliner

Which one is expected to be bought Yuan or qing or both? 
Which one is latest and best?


----------



## Imran Khan

ok lets enjoy more years


----------



## The SC

...
According to a December 2014 article in _India Today_, a Sino-Pak strategic submarine project launched in 2010 – and suffering from various setbacks according to other sources – will “transform the Pakistan Navy into a strategic force capable of launching a sea-based nuclear weapons strike.”

The article furthermore notes that,

“Pakistan will build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi. Intelligence sources believe the S-30 submarines are based on the Chinese Qing class submarines-3,000-tonne conventional submarines which can launch three 1,500-km range nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from its conning tower. A Very Low Frequency (VLF) station at Turbat, in southern Balochistan, will communicate with these submerged strategic submarines.”

According to _globalsecurity.org_, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 Qing-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. “Each can carry three CJ-10K submarine-launched, 1,500km-range land attack cruise missiles (LACM) capable of being armed with unitary tactical nuclear warheads,” the article notes. Yet, _globalsecurity.org_ emphasizes that the reports on this Sino-PAK contract “must be taken with a grain of salt.”

To make matters more complicated, most reports note that the submarines purchased will be six Type 041 _Yuan_-class vessels. Pakistan’s current submarine fleet consists of two upgraded French DCNS Agosta-70 and three Agosta 90Bs (equipped with air independent propulsion).

Does Pakistan Have a Sea-Based Second-Strike Capability? | The Diplomat

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## AsianLion

The dhotis are on fire, with subs all around it...Also with these beautiful S 20 / Type 041...Pakistan also needs to buy Nuclear and Ballistic Missile Type 092 / Type 094 subs from China, and German U-214 / U-216 subs...

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## Ray_of_Hope

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> Burraq
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Jf-17 BLK II
> 
> The fk.


when did we order the ATR's?????sorry i could not keep my self updated due to my exams


----------



## ghauri05

SuperSubrayan said:


> If true I expect more reaction from India. Should do the same to SCS nations . Including Taiwan . And help IRAN with our new futuristic war ships . Openly or covertly don't matter . Because when India work hard to buy weapons and we have our problems to be taken care of . But Chinese comes and keep giving freebies to Pakistan which openly choose the path of self destruction path. This 8 submarine will give Pakistan a much needed advantages over surprised Indian fleet groups


Tu to tension hi le gya bhai..... abi to bas news ayi he...submarine ane de...phr kch kehna!!!

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## Muhammad Omar

war khan said:


> when did we order the ATR's?????sorry i could not keep my self updated due to my exams



few days ago...

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

ziaulislam said:


> honestly, eygpt received over 10 billion dollars in Aid and promise of over 13 billion dollars for new capital city..
> 
> for us jumping in will be suicide even if we get similar amount of $$$..because we have 10% shia population that is extremely loyal to Iran no matter what type of policies iran continue down the line..


And what about 80% which is extremely loyal to saudia? . we didnt give a damn about iran and saudia .


----------



## Hurter

Z-10 Helicopters, Submarines & negotiation to acquire HQ-9 from China. Looks like Pakistan is making some serious moves to make its defence strong.

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## That Guy

Junaid B said:


> Z-10 Helicopters, Submarines & negotiation to acquire HQ-9 from China. Looks like Pakistan is making some serious moves to make its defence strong.


But it seems to be falling into the same trap as before: going to one suppliers. Pakistan needs to spread it's list of suppliers.

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## Rahil khan

Imran Khan said:


> ok lets enjoy more years


Are we looking for another 10 or may be 15 years for completing this deal just like the Augusta 90Bs...??


----------



## AsianLion

8 S20s is a very big number, we should look for different chinese ballistic subs , South Korean, Japanese and German submarines too.


----------



## ali_raza

bhai log china mal hi lete raho ge kia


----------



## Hurter

That Guy said:


> But it seems to be falling into the same trap as before: going to one suppliers. Pakistan needs to spread it's list of suppliers.



But it depends whether other suppliers are ready to sell their hardware or not. We had been asking U.S to give Apaches for decades, but they refused(due to Indian lobby). France has also refused to share its submarine technology to Pakistan because they were not invited on the parade day (That was quite childish of them ). Same can be expected from Germany because they are NATO. Will Russia provide us S-300? If yes then good enough. If not then we have no option but China.

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## Donatello

Good news. What a massive leap for the Navy...and even more interesting the submarine complex at Ormara. Meaning Pakistan is serious about the Arabian sea region.

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## Thorough Pro

It's a 5 billion dollar deal and amazing how quick and smooth the decision was made. Hopefully the agreement is also signed quickly.

they can pursue a distant and doubtful 10 billion deal instead of a 5 billion dollar arms length deal. As far as technology is concerned, we already have experience of building two agosta class subs, now building at least 5 to 6 more out of total 8 would add tremendous capability and knowhow. Works for us pretty nicely. 



Junaid B said:


> But it depends whether other suppliers are ready to sell their hardware or not. We had been asking U.S to give Apaches for decades, but they refused(due to Indian lobby). *France has also refused to share its submarine technology to Pakistan because they were not invited on the parade day* (That was quite childish of them ). Same can be expected from Germany because they are NATO. Will Russia provide us S-300? If yes then good enough. If not then we have no option but China.


----------



## aliaselin

Parkistan will get 3000~4000 ton submarines, not s20

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## MastanKhan

Junaid B said:


> France has also refused to share its submarine technology to Pakistan because they were not invited on the parade day (That was quite childish .



Hi,

Could you plz elaborate on that. Thank you.


----------



## Hurter

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Could you plz elaborate on that. Thank you.



Daily Pakistan | France refuses to sell submarines to Pakistan


----------



## MastanKhan

Junaid B said:


> Daily Pakistan | France refuses to sell submarines to Pakistan


Hi,

That was not france but the members of our standing comittee

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## Hurter

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was not france but the members of our standing comittee



Probably.. But it also came on the news as well. There might be another reason. But, France has actually refused to sell submarines to Pakistan.


----------



## rockstar08

Any Chance we can Get Qing Class ?


----------



## xyxmt

I think Europeans are cutting their own feet, the only exports they have left is Defense equipments and they are denying it to a country with 6th largest Army...they are short sighted, they think Pakistan will always be this poor, but if in this poor state Pakistan is buying Chinese equipment then it mean they will remain chinese customer for a long time, even when Pakistan is a 3 trillion economy.

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## AsianLion

How many subs PN wants with missile launch capability? I guess 3 to 4. If these are tasked with strike roles as part of the triad. That means PN still needs submarines to patrol their coastlines to keep the IN honest and also additional subs to conduct aggressive patrols in Indian Ocean & Bay of Bengal. 3 Agosta 90s are not sufficient to carry all the patrol duties. They need to be complemented by additional submarines.


I believe discussion was to procure up to initial 6 Chinese submarines. Naturally give the current state of economy it will take some time. If resources permit, I would like to see the 8 Chinese or 4 German submarines. It would give PN a fleet of 12 submarines. A very formidable force indeed


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## shaheenmissile

Only one Qing class sub was ever built with a bulging bottom,as it had a VLS for a ballustic missile in the sail.
It was a test bed for chinese VLS.


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## That Guy

Junaid B said:


> But it depends whether other suppliers are ready to sell their hardware or not. We had been asking U.S to give Apaches for decades, but they refused(due to Indian lobby). France has also refused to share its submarine technology to Pakistan because they were not invited on the parade day (That was quite childish of them ). Same can be expected from Germany because they are NATO. Will Russia provide us S-300? If yes then good enough. If not then we have no option but China.


Germany and France are both willing, the problem is that Pakistan doesn't have the cash. Italy and Pakistan have good military relations, as Pakistan has Italian SAMs (SPADA 2000) and Italian drones (Falco UAV).

It's not that the US won't give Pakistan helicopters, it's that US demands make it hard for Pakistan to justify buying them. The US very recently offered a $200 million dollar loan for Pakistan to buy brand new attack helis from Pakistan, but the deal was supposedly rejected by PA, because of concerns over reliability of getting spare-parts from the US. Another option has always been Turkey, who've always been reliable, and have helped PAF F-16s keep up maintenance, even during sanctions. The Turks have never really cared about western sanctions, and have always looked at their own strategic interests. They want to be the leaders of the Muslim world, so they'll go out of their way to make sure that Pakistan is treated as a friend, not just as a mere ally.

Russia may not give S-300, but Pakistan and Russian defense ties are growing, and the Russians are already benefiting from supplying jet engines to Pakistan. Recent talks of supplying Mi-35s for Pakistan's counter narcotics divisions is evidence enough that the Russians are willing to supply weapons systems to Pakistan, of course under sensitive conditions (India).

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## Shamain

Yea russia with an already dwindling economy must listn to india in defence equipment sales to us. 
That guy, how do you know with france the issue is of cash?
I once saw a very old video in which the guy was saying pakistan is building its own indigenous sub, abhi tak nahi bani.
Nonetheless about time to upgrde and expand the fleet. It always usedto feel like a punch in stomach when i used to think of our sub fleet strenght.


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## Metanoia

I reckon Pakistan is opting for Chinese platforms as the learning experience and ToT attached is very valuable. Eventually we might be looking for complete indigenization of our defense industry. If we really observe the AK, JF, and most of the other military tech we now produce have a strong Chinese influence...the Yanks have done f@ck all. 

The Americans are utterly unreliable and untrustworthy (although they have the sweetest of goods). The Europeans and Russians are unreliable as well...a whiff of money from the Indians (which is something the Indians have coupled with strong lobbying power) and they'll ditch us in a heart beat.

Turkey is another viable option and we should definitely cooperate more with them.

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## SuperSubrayan

ghauri05 said:


> Tu to tension hi le gya bhai..... abi to bas news ayi he...submarine ane de...phr kch kehna!!!


Tell see how thinks turns out ! As far as you build your weapon systems from China it's good for us in other ways too .


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## SuperSubrayan

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> India should supply Iran its latest indigenous technology



Sure ! Now this role is been taken care of by Russians . So SCS country like Vietnam should be our AIM .


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## Imran Khan

Rahil khan said:


> Are we looking for another 10 or may be 15 years for completing this deal just like the Augusta 90Bs...??


yes sir why not ? it will take some more 10 to 13 years for induct these subs

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## black-hawk_101

MM_Haider said:


> Image Credit: Department of Defense
> *Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs*
> Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Franz-Stefan Gady
> April 02, 2015
> 1.4k
> 159
> 9
> *1.6k* Shares
> *88*Comments
> Yesterday, the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informedthe National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.
> 
> Details on the type of vessels or their price tag are murky. _IHS Jane’s_ quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”
> 
> According to _IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships_the Type 041 _Yuan_-class is,“a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessel allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons, according to public sources.
> 
> However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 _Qing_-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.
> 
> Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”
> 
> The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. _IHS Jane_’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”
> 
> He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the _Financial Times_ that there are still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”
> 
> Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”



I hope PN will make a deal with China like:
6 Chinese sub Block-I to be manufactured within 5 years time by using two dry docks at KS&EWs
Later On,
6 Chinese sub Block-II to be manufactured within 5 years time by using two dry docks at KS&EWs
And then,
6 Chinese sub Block-III to be manufactured within 5 years time by using two dry docks at KS&EWs


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## Sulman Badshah

*The Diplomat report this* 


*“Pakistan will build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi. Intelligence sources believe the S-30 submarines are based on the Chinese Qing class submarines-3,000-tonne conventional submarines which can launch three 1,500-km range nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from its conning tower. A Very Low Frequency (VLF) station at Turbat, in southern Balochistan, will communicate with these submerged strategic submarines.”*

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## Saifullah Sani

According to Jang News Pakistan wanted to buy six submarines from China and Two from Germany but after Germany's refusal Pakistan decided to buy all eight Subs from China.




Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang


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## AliWaqar

China help pakistan in every matter  i think if china give us Jf-17 Z-10 J-10 we look happy but now in this matter if we acquire Subs From China i see some Jal kukris Are Crying And Some 1 Told me That Funds For this DEal and also For j10 and Are paid By Saudis [


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## Danish saleem

rockstar08 said:


> that is a huge order , but if govt approve the order , they must give them some dollars , cause nothing is free ...
> PN need heavy modification to its fleet , as Gwader Port is been Operational , we need to have more Frigate and 1-2 heavy Destroyers with Good AAW capabilities .. a VLS system on our Frigate or DDG's in important , without a proper defense our Ships will not be much effective Against enemy CM and Fighters ...
> 
> and if we are up to buy a huge number of Subs, i would say , Buy 3 Chinese subs ,and 3 German or French ... and keep working on our own N-Sub for second strike Capability ..



like Z-10 Heli's, its also china's First Order of Export for their Subs, so , we are getting huge discounts in the prices, because of these subs worked properly for next 3-5 years, this will be great opportunity for china to enter in subs market in rest of the World!

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## ghauri05

Saifullah Sani said:


> According to Jang News Pakistan wanted to buy six submarines from China and Two from Germany but after Germany's refusal Pakistan decided to buy all eight Subs from China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang


Please confirm the submarine is diesel electric or AIP? Aren't the 2 different technologies???


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## Rahil khan

Imran Khan said:


> yes sir why not ? it will take some more 10 to 13 years for induct these subs


Don't you think it's one heck of a time Sir ? Suppose our last Submarine is inducted in 2030....than the French submarines would become obsolete already...we shall lose the advantage of having some diversity in our fleet. Is this time consuming phenomena is the mater of routine in such big deals...... or otherwise like we often say only happens in Pakistan due to poor management issues ?


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## Sulman Badshah

ghauri05 said:


> Please confirm the submarine is diesel electric or AIP? Aren't the 2 different technologies???


Both are different things ... Subs are powered by diesel electric engine 

while AIP is different thing it has nothing to do with power .. It allow submarine to stay underwater for a longer time 

If an y submarine don't have AIP than it is necessary for sub to come to surface of the ocean in 24 hours

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## Imran Khan

Rahil khan said:


> Don't you think it's one heck of a time Sir ? Suppose our last Submarine is inducted in 2030....than the French submarines would become obsolete already...we shall lose the advantage of having some diversity in our fleet. Is this time consuming phenomena is the mater of routine in such big deals...... or otherwise like we often say only happens in Pakistan due to poor management issues ?





On *21 September 1994*, the Pakistani authorities and DCN International signed a contract in Islamabad for the supply of three Agosta 90-B submarines

first unit, "Khalid," was built in Cherbourg and delivered to Pakistan It was commissioned on 6 September 1999 and inducted into PN Fleet on 21 December 1999.



Even before the delivery of sections of submarine No. 2 the work on major structures was started in December 1997 second submarine was launched on 24 August 2002 and started its harbor and sea trials.She was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 13 December 2003


third Agosta 90B submarine that has been completely built at Pakistan Navy Dockyard The submarine was launched in August 2006 was commissioned into Pakistan Navy Fleet on 26 September 2008

now count for 8 subs boss

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## Psychic

ghauri05 said:


> Please confirm the submarine is diesel electric or AIP? Aren't the 2 different technologies???


When on surface a conventional sub uses deisel engine but when submerged, deisel engine can't be used instead batteries are used for propulsion and to recharge batteries sub has to surface frequently.
AIP allows a sub to remain submerged for upto three weeks.

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## farhan_9909

Sulman Badshah said:


> here is the most important part in the news
> 
> 
> 
> *media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”*
> 
> 
> *So there will be 2 types of submarines project s26 and s30*



any info about the s-26 and s-30 projects?any chinese member?


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## AsianLion

Saifullah Sani said:


> According to Jang News Pakistan wanted to buy six submarines from China and Two from Germany but after Germany's refusal Pakistan decided to buy all eight Subs from China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang




You complete mis-interpret the article dude...or you have not read Urdu carefully and missed it by a mile. The article doesn't say at all anywhere Germany refused to sell submarines to Pakistan. Basically the article says Pakistan bought as the first country for HQ-16 and HQ-9 missile systems...and it was Pakistani gov of that time not go for it as it didnot provide the required capability.

Then the article clearly says that Pakistan ordered 6 Chinese submarines in 2011, and wanted 3 German Submarines, but rather than going for German Submarines, it decided to go for 8 Chinese ones now. It does not say anywhere Germany refused, infact it was Pakistanis who refused to buy from Germany.

These Type 041 Submarines are great addition to PN.

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## 帅的一匹

I say China shall provide Pakistan one billions USD aid each year so as to help Pakistan deter India threats. Modi is a threat when he choose to join hands with Japan and USA, very dangerous opportunist.

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## Rahil khan

Imran Khan said:


> On *21 September 1994*, the Pakistani authorities and DCN International signed a contract in Islamabad for the supply of three Agosta 90-B submarines
> 
> first unit, "Khalid," was built in Cherbourg and delivered to Pakistan It was commissioned on 6 September 1999 and inducted into PN Fleet on 21 December 1999.
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the delivery of sections of submarine No. 2 the work on major structures was started in December 1997 second submarine was launched on 24 August 2002 and started its harbor and sea trials.She was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 13 December 2003
> 
> 
> third Agosta 90B submarine that has been completely built at Pakistan Navy Dockyard The submarine was launched in August 2006 was commissioned into Pakistan Navy Fleet on 26 September 2008
> 
> now count for 8 subs boss


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## Imran Khan

Rahil khan said:


> View attachment 211101


if that speed then 15 plus years .

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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> if that speed then 15 plus years .



Sir, Agosta90 contract was signed in 1994, that is PPP-Bhutto Zardari time....and that is the reason shyt happened. Then came Zardari in 2000s to cash his kickbacks and hence that Sheraton Bombing in Karachi which killed 11 Frenchmen. The construction was put on hold, but French still had to honor the contract so they completed the deal.

If Zardari comes back again, expect some delays, otherwise no issues of funds this time, since China is providing loans and they are the ones building the submarines.

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## 帅的一匹

Imran Khan said:


> if that speed then 15 plus years .


not gonna happen with China as the supplier, French is too slow.


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## Bilal.

These assets will help secure the China trade corridor which will benefit both country's economy greatly.

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## Sulman Badshah

farhan_9909 said:


> any info about the s-26 and s-30 projects?any chinese member?


there is no info regarding S26 and S30 projects available .... But as per speculation
S26 will be submarine based on chinese S20 with AIP and capability of firing SLCM 
while S30 will be be on Qing class which will able to fire not only SLCM but 1500 km range SLBM


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## Rahil khan

Donatello said:


> Sir, Agosta90 contract was signed in 1994, that is PPP-Bhutto Zardari time....and that is the reason shyt happened. Then came Zardari in 2000s to cash his kickbacks and hence that Sheraton Bombing in Karachi which killed 11 Frenchmen. The construction was put on hold, but French still had to honor the contract so they completed the deal.
> 
> If Zardari comes back again, expect some delays, otherwise no issues of funds this time, since China is providing loans and they are the ones building the submarines.


Sir ! Zardari needs another Benazir Bhutto to seize the power in capital....that cheque which he cashed in 2008 has been used up already. I desperately hope they complete this deal in 8 years time maximum....!!


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## rockstar08

Imran Khan said:


> On *21 September 1994*, the Pakistani authorities and DCN International signed a contract in Islamabad for the supply of three Agosta 90-B submarines
> 
> first unit, "Khalid," was built in Cherbourg and delivered to Pakistan It was commissioned on 6 September 1999 and inducted into PN Fleet on 21 December 1999.
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the delivery of sections of submarine No. 2 the work on major structures was started in December 1997 second submarine was launched on 24 August 2002 and started its harbor and sea trials.She was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 13 December 2003
> 
> 
> third Agosta 90B submarine that has been completely built at Pakistan Navy Dockyard The submarine was launched in August 2006 was commissioned into Pakistan Navy Fleet on 26 September 2008
> 
> now count for 8 subs boss



@Imran Khan bhai ap tu khush hai na ..


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## ziaulislam

JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> And what about 80% which is extremely loyal to saudia? . we didnt give a damn about iran and saudia .



haha, you are joking right..


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## AsianLion

PN was initially interested in acquiring 3 German U boats However due to economic reasons deal did not materialize. Now the talk is about acquiring Chinese submarines. However deal yet to materialize.

PN is in urgent need to replace the 2 older Agosta 70 submarines + additional boats to have decent numbers. What I want to know is when PN bought the 3 Agosta 90 submarines, it had received TOT to license produce the submarines. If PN has the license than why it did not purchase additional Agosta 90s to complement the 3 it has in its fleet. Given the infrastructure it would have been easy to induct in PN and cost wise still cheaper than German submarines.


Agosta 90s may be from 90’s, but they are still formidable submarines. It would be nice to have the German boats or the Chinese with larger displacement. Since none of these deals have materialized, than why not Agosta 90s.


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## airmarshal

Augusta 90B came with transfer of technology as one was assembled in Pakistan and the other was built here. So why cant we build more of Augusta subs?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Firstly Agosta's are being decommissioned hence if PN increases the numbers they would have problems to maintain them. The French are not willing to sell the Scorpane as India is a user and has also order more. 

The only subs that can be added immediately are the German U214/216. There is no hurdle in getting the spares as Turkey and South Korea produce these subs and are also using them.


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## Nav

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 subs (Originally we're in negotiation for 6)
> 
> 6 MPA's (Complete surprise)
> 
> 4 Frigs ( old news just popped out of nowhere today)
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Army just approved to buy MI-35s.
> 3 Z-10s also landed ( supposedly free )
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Other major acquisitions this year 8 xCutter ships
> 
> 90+ SH-1 SP guns.
> 
> Nurol Arnoured vehicles
> 
> Burraq
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Jf-17 BLK II
> 
> The fk.


Bro what is MPA's


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## Dr. Strangelove

Nav said:


> Bro what is MPA's


maritime petrol aircraft


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Nav said:


> Bro what is MPA's


Maritime patrol aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Imran Khan

rockstar08 said:


> @Imran Khan bhai ap tu khush hai na ..


yes why not my loving navy is getting subs and sure i will visit these subs one of the day.

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## Syed Shehryar

got this info from wikipedia especially nuclear submarine


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## saiyan0321

Our current naval defense capabilities stand on the back of submarines. The more we have the better our naval strength be which will allow us to protect our shores against enemy offensive more properly. We were starting our own indigenous submarine program. Is it still being worked upon or have we scrapped it due to lack of funds?


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## Saifullah Sani

Pakistan buying diesel electric submarines Worth Five Billion Rupees. This is China's biggest arm deal . These Subs named S-20 which is export version of A-039 Sub





Jang Multimedia Karachi


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## xyxmt

Azeri440 said:


> I am gonna guess Saudis are paying



Yesterday we went out for dinner and Saudi consulate picked up the tab

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## airmarshal

The Urdu paper states the Chinese sub can dive up to 300 metres? Isnt that too shallow?

Also how good are sub's acoustics? It may stay under water for 60 days but how about its noise levels?


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## insight-out

Let me play devil's advocate here. 

What if this is a bold move by China to enter the Arabian Sea. Deploying 8 new submarines in the region under its own flag would raise alarm, and would be a direct challenge to India and the US. What better way then to cloak the move under a sale to Pakistan. 

So is it possible that Pakistan would have agreed to play along and announce the sale, while allowing China to operate the submarines?


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## Orakzai

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan buying diesel electric submarines *Worth Five Billion Rupees*. This is China's biggest arm deal . These Subs named S-20 which is export version of A-039 Sub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jang Multimedia Karachi


Correction its 5 Trillion Pakistani rupees.

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## datalibdaz

Orakzai said:


> Correction its 5 Trillion Pakistani rupees.


 Or 50,000 Crores

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## black-hawk_101

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan buying diesel electric submarines Worth Five Billion Rupees. This is China's biggest arm deal . These Subs named S-20 which is export version of A-039 Sub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jang Multimedia Karachi



I hope that PN will going to utilize their 2 dry docks out of 3-4 they have in order to simultaneously manufacture 2 S-20s at a time. This will allow PN to get 2 S-20 submarines in 2-2.5 years time or may be earlier.

But PN needs to think of gaining components from EU and may be from US which are of better quality than their Chinese counter parts. Like the AIP from Sweden or may be from Germany.


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## Sulman Badshah

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan buying diesel electric submarines Worth Five Billion Rupees. This is China's biggest arm deal . These Subs named S-20 which is export version of A-039 Sub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jang Multimedia Karachi


not 5 billion Rs .. but 5 billion USD perhaps


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## black-hawk_101

Also, this will allow the PN to finally start scraping the Daphne Class and Agosta-70s. And after this 6, PN can then go for another 6 S-20P Block-II which would finally replace the 3 Agosta-90Bs as well.

But I think PN should also produce some SSG Submarines having similar shape and technology having 110-210 Tons to replace the old ones.


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## The SC

Imran Khan said:


> yes sir why not ? it will take some more 10 to 13 years for induct these subs


According to some western experts views on the Chinese speed in manufacturing, these 8 submarines won't take more than 6 years to be made. Also according to the deal signed in 2011, 6 should be delivered in 2015-2016, that is a mere 4/5 years for 6 submarines...
It is a bit confusing, but I still remember vividly that the deal for 6 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011. Maybe, and just maybe these 8 are a new deal for type 26 and type 30 to be mostly manufactured in Pakistan.
That will make sense too, if Pakistan Navy is looking to offset the huge disparity with the Indian Navy.
So that is 6 Qing class Submarines to counter the 6 Scorpene ordered by IN, plus another 8, since India is looking to make some on its own.
That will make it 17 AIP for Pakistan plus the 2 Agosta 70s. that is a total of 19 operational conventional Submarines, which is quite possible due to the size of the IN. Remember that North Korea operates around 60 Submarines of different sizes which make it a very formidable naval force to recon with, even if most of its Subs are old, they have proven that they can sink the most modern frigates with huge modern support !!!


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## The SC

airmarshal said:


> Augusta 90B came with transfer of technology as one was assembled in Pakistan and the other was built here. So why cant we build more of Augusta subs?


That is because of the AIP MESMA technology which was not transferred, those packages came sealed and were integrated to the submarines , So what is the point of building new Agosta 90s when one can not have the main technology of AIP and has to buy it sealed.
With China Pakistan will have total ToT of Stirling cycle AIP technology to integrate to its submarines. So with these 8 type S26 (2600t displacement) and S30 (3000t displacement), maybe Pakistan is making the equivalents of the Agosta 90s with its own AIP technology from China (The only technology that Pakistan was missing to make its own sophisticated AIP submarines) who might have benefited from the overall Agosta 90 technologies, so it is a win/win deal for Pakistan and China.

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## Ray_of_Hope

black-hawk_101 said:


> Also, this will allow the PN to finally start scraping the *Daphne Class* and Agosta-70s. And after this 6, PN can then go for another 6 S-20P Block-II which would finally replace the 3 Agosta-90Bs as well.
> 
> But I think PN should also produce some SSG Submarines having similar shape and technology having 110-210 Tons to replace the old ones.


PN had retired all Daphne Class subs long ago

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## black-hawk_101

war khan said:


> PN had retired all Daphne Class subs long ago


But they haven't scrapped it. Also, they should be scrapping up all the old equipments including:
Old Western - Local - Chinese FACs
Logistical - Auxiliary Vessels
Submarines
Frigates and Corvettes in PN and Coast Guards


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## Ray_of_Hope

black-hawk_101 said:


> But they haven't scrapped it. _*Also, they should be scrapping up all the old equipments including*_:
> Old Western - Local - Chinese FACs
> Logistical - Auxiliary Vessels
> Submarines
> Frigates and Corvettes in PN and Coast Guards


Who said that we do not scrap our retired equipment.We scrap and sell the retired equipment but in case of Daphne class sub,In a ceremony on 2 January 2006, _Hangor_ was decommissioned from the Pakistan Navy. She was soon converted to serve as a museum ship at Pakistan Maritime Museum, avoiding the fate of many other PNS submarines bound for scrap.



black-hawk_101 said:


> But they haven't scrapped it. _*Also, they should be scrapping up all the old equipments including*_:
> Old Western - Local - Chinese FACs
> Logistical - Auxiliary Vessels
> Submarines
> Frigates and Corvettes in PN and Coast Guards


Who said that we do not scrap our retired equipment.We scrap and sell the retired equipment but in case of Daphne class sub,In a ceremony on 2 January 2006, _Hangor_ was decommissioned from the Pakistan Navy. She was soon converted to serve as a museum ship at Pakistan Maritime Museum, avoiding the fate of many other PNS submarines bound for scrap.


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## black-hawk_101

war khan said:


> Who said that we do not scrap our retired equipment.We scrap and sell the retired equipment but in case of Daphne class sub,In a ceremony on 2 January 2006, _Hangor_ was decommissioned from the Pakistan Navy. She was soon converted to serve as a museum ship at Pakistan Maritime Museum, avoiding the fate of many other PNS submarines bound for scrap.
> 
> 
> Who said that we do not scrap our retired equipment.We scrap and sell the retired equipment but in case of Daphne class sub,In a ceremony on 2 January 2006, _Hangor_ was decommissioned from the Pakistan Navy. She was soon converted to serve as a museum ship at Pakistan Maritime Museum, avoiding the fate of many other PNS submarines bound for scrap.


Its already there in.


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## rockstar08

Imran Khan said:


> yes why not my loving navy is getting subs and sure i will visit these subs one of the day.



good , humai bhi ek chakker lagwa de ga , Arabia sea ka hahahhaha


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## Dr. Strangelove

Orakzai said:


> Correction its 5 Trillion Pakistani rupees.


5 trillion rs is like 50 billion dollars 
trillion is different from kharab
1 kharabis 100 billion(arab)
1 trillion is 1000 billion


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## Aditi Acharya

That's great...

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## 45'22'

Aditi Acharya said:


> That's great...


Pakistani Hindu


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## Aditi Acharya

45'22' said:


> Pakistani Hindu


yes this is pakistan,We love it...

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## tahir195

why wont we buy some of type 214 i think it is best one

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## I M Sikander

Self delete

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## 45'22'

Ranasikander said:


> Oh bhai kindly take some basic maths classes.
> 
> 1 billion = 100 crore
> 1 trillion = 100 billion.
> 
> 1 $ = 100 Pkrs.
> 
> So 5 $ billion = 5 trillion PKRs


1 trillion is 1000 billions

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## Dr. Strangelove

Ranasikander said:


> Oh bhai kindly take some basic maths classes.
> 
> 1 billion = 100 crore
> 1 trillion = 100 billion.
> 
> 1 $ = 100 Pkrs.
> 
> So 5 $ billion = 5 trillion PKRs


genius you should be taking those classes and shut the f up about things u dont know 
there is a difference between trillion and kharab 
pakistans entire fedral budget last year was 4.2 trillion (44 billion$ at the time )
1 billion=1000 million=100 crores
100 billion= 1kharab=.1trillion
1 trillion has 1000 billions just google it if u dont believe me

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## Arsalan

The S20, in normal state, is reported to lack AIP system. It was reportedly THE main difference compared to Yuan class. However it is also said that due to modular design of S20 an AIP can be easily fitted as well as some other equipment/sensors. Now the real question will be, Is PN going to get these subs WITH API, because if not that it is waste of resources and the same 5bn dollars can be spent on more lethal machine in smaller numbers. A S20 with no API and SLCM wont be such a great idea. I hope the plan is not to get S20 from China and then later fit these with AIP from some western country as that LATER may well never come. We have seen the dragging issue with Agosta 90b as well.

All that is, IF we are actually going for S20 now and this whole things do not ends up like PN getting Qing or PN getting U214...

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## Viper0011.

Ranasikander said:


> 1 trillion = 100 billion.



The other gentlemen is right, 1 Trillion in DOLLARS = $ 1000 Billion


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## ice_man

is there going to be ToT? we had some with the Agosta 90Bs too but i don't think the ToT was used wisely then.

btw how loud are these S20s? after all it is more or less heavily influenced from the Kilo class Russian sub.


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## Orakzai

Dr. Stranglove said:


> 5 trillion rs is like 50 billion dollars
> trillion is different from kharab
> 1 kharabis 100 billion(arab)
> 1 trillion is 1000 billion


Then probably 500 billion Pakistani rupees? No?

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## airmarshal

The SC said:


> That is because of the AIP MESMA technology which was not transferred, those packages came sealed and were integrated to the submarines , So what is the point of building new Agosta 90s when one can not have the main technology of AIP and has to buy it sealed.
> With China Pakistan will have total ToT of Stirling cycle AIP technology to integrate to its submarines. So with these 8 type S26 (2600t displacement) and S30 (3000t displacement), maybe Pakistan is making the equivalents of the Agosta 90s with its own AIP technology from China (The only technology that Pakistan was missing to make its own sophisticated AIP submarines) who might have benefited from the overall Agosta 90 technologies, so it is a win/win deal for Pakistan and China.



Further to what you said.

If Pakistan does have technology to build Augusta 90B, then why cant it build more and buy the AIP system off the shelf from France? Or just get Chinese AIP tech instead of whole submarine. Just wondering.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Orakzai said:


> Then probably 500 billion Pakistani rupees? No?


5 kharab in urdu and 500 billion or .5 trillion in english a lot of people mix kharab and trillion so its no biggie


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## ACE OF THE AIR

It might just be a misprint as one extra zero would not have been rechecked. The issue is not that this mistake caused a lot of problem but the Indians are trying to say they are the author of ZERO and the report should have asked for the use of this additional Zero.

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## Imran Khan

Ranasikander said:


> Oh bhai kindly take some basic maths classes.
> 
> 1 billion = 100 crore
> 1 trillion = 100 billion.
> 
> 1 $ = 100 Pkrs.
> 
> So 5 $ billion = 5 trillion PKRs


 you also run from school like me ?

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## Aditi Acharya

tahir195 said:


> why wont we buy some of type 214 i think it is best one


i agree


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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....
> 
> Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....
> 
> Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....


I am getting confused about which submarine some report suggest they are S-20 but I also read names like S-26 and S-30 some where so which one ?

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> I am getting confused about which submarine some report suggest they are S-20 but I also read names like S-26 and S-30 some where so which one ?



No ones that yet :p it's just ov gave approval for 8 subs... i think i read somewhere that 2 types of subs we are getting... yeh Stealth told that 2 types of subs


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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> No ones that yet :p it's just ov gave approval for 8 subs... i think i read somewhere that 2 types of subs we are getting... yeh Stealth told that 2 types of subs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 211716


diplomat reported that Paksitan is negotiating for two kind of submarine .. one is S26 (upgraded version of S20 submarine) and one is S30 (a version of Qing class will have displacement of 3000 tons )

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## Muhammad Omar

Sulman Badshah said:


> diplomat reported that Paksitan is negotiating for two kind of submarine .. one is S26 (upgraded version of S20 submarine) and one is S30 (a version of Qing class will have displacement of 3000 tons )



@Zarvan ^^^^ Check this

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Sulman Badshah said:


> diplomat reported that Paksitan is negotiating for two kind of submarine .. one is S26 (upgraded version of S20 submarine) and one is S30 (a version of Qing class will have displacement of 3000 tons )


4 subs each or 6 S26 & 2 S30

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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> @Zarvan ^^^^ Check this





ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 4 subs each or 6 S26 & 2 S30



there wasn't a specific number of submarines 
here is full news related to 2 types of sub 

Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

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## Muhammad Omar

*Here is the Article from the Diplomat *

*Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs*
Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.


Yesterday, the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informed the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.

Details on the type of vessels or their price tag are murky. _IHS Jane’s_ quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”

According to _IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships_ the Type 041 _Yuan_-class is,“a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessel allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons, according to public sources.

However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 _Qing_-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. _IHS Jane_’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the _Financial Times_ that there are still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

Good thing is Article says Pakistan will Build Submarines 

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Sulman Badshah said:


> there wasn't a specific number of submarines
> here is full news related to 2 types of sub
> 
> Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”



This is confusing!! First line states build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons. 

Then it says S-26 and S-30

S-26 is based on ?
S-30 is based on?

Qing Class 3800 tons
PN may be looking to produce Yuan Class Type-41 which has displacement 3000-3500 tons 



Muhammad Omar said:


> However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 _Qing_-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.



Then Why 



Muhammad Omar said:


> Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”



3000 ton displacement is Yuan Class.


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## Sulman Badshah

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is confusing!! First line states build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons.
> 
> Then it says S-26 and S-30
> 
> S-26 is based on ?
> S-30 is based on?
> 
> Qing Class 3800 tons
> PN may be looking to produce Yuan Class Type-41 which has displacement 3000-3500 tons
> 
> 
> 
> Then Why
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 ton displacement is Yuan Class.


Maybe S30 will be a small version of Qing class with SLBM capability ....


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Sulman Badshah said:


> Maybe S30 will be a small version of Qing class with SLBM capability ....


If they want the SLBM capability then the requirement is more than 3000 tons as it requires VLS.


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## Sulman Badshah

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> If they want the SLBM capability then the requirement is more than 3000 tons as it requires VLS.


technically speaking SLBM won't be possible in this tonnage ...


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## AsianLion

options for further 4 are the German U-214 / Type-216, Turkish T-209s, South Korean, Spanish and Japanese subs for better AIP / Sub technology left only, apart from Chinese subs.

*Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China & searching for Western Subs*

By Usman Ansari - Defence News.com 9:09 a.m. EDT April 3, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in
service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines. Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214 or the latest Type-216, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export. However, Cloughley said there may also be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214 / Type-216.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three German Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank PakDef Forums said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214/Type-216 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles and Ballistic Missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Email: uansari@defensenews.com

PakDef Forums

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## salman-1

Actual requirement for subs are very first time fulfilled. The Past experience of such deals were a burdon for our Navy as Augosta-90B was a choice of Peoples Party govt for huge kick backs attached with them in cloudy 90's. Navy has now decided for its own choice. The immediate requirement is for 6 of same class as many time i have read in forums and news etc. The 7th and 8th are a bit mystery now , as they might be nuclear one's. Its power plant has to be build or selected or may be designed on some chinese design


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## The SC

airmarshal said:


> Further to what you said.
> 
> If Pakistan does have technology to build Augusta 90B, then why cant it build more and buy the AIP system off the shelf from France? Or just get Chinese AIP tech instead of whole submarine. Just wondering.


The AIP from France can be refused or sanctioned, that is the first negative outlook . Pakistan when building its own _better than Agosta 90B_ submarines will have the opportunity to sell them too or go into JVs which is much better than depending on permissions and being subjected to refusal denial or sanctions. Think the case of the JF-17 applied to submarines and Naval warships.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The SC said:


> The AIP from France can be refused or sanctioned, that is the first negative outlook . Pakistan when building its own _better than Agosta 90B_ submarines will have the opportunity to sell them too or go into JVs which is much better than depending on permissions and being subjected to refusal denial or sanctions. Think the case of the JF-17 applied to submarines and Naval warships.



There is also an other out look to what you are saying. Chinese Subs are for domestic and export for Latin America and Africa where as the Western are for the ARAB States. 

Considering the Arab Defance Force then U-209 / U-214 is a better and logical choice. Along with the French ones but if France sites TOT issues in regards to Pakistan is all because of it requires more money which can be arraigned however France can not immediately provide these. The U-209 and U214 can be made available immediately new as well as old.


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## The SC

Muhammad Omar said:


> *Here is the Article from the Diplomat *
> 
> *Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs*
> Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the _Qing_-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will *also* build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”



There is an " also " guys...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The SC said:


> There is an " also " guys...


What are you trying to say that the deal is of 14 subs in all?


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There is also an other out look to what you are saying. Chinese Subs are for domestic and export for Latin America and Africa where as the Western are for the ARAB States.
> 
> Considering the Arab Defance Force then U-209 / U-214 is a better and logical choice. Along with the French ones but if France sites TOT issues in regards to Pakistan is all because of it requires more money which can be arraigned however France can not immediately provide these. The U-209 and U214 can be made available immediately new as well as old.


Some Used well maintained U-209 from Turkey will be a good addition to Pak navy as stop gaps if they become available while the domestic submarines are being made.
France is supplying India now with the Scorpene Subs, which are bigger and more sophisticated than the Agosta. Pakistan will build subs at least in par with the Scorpene.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What are you trying to say that the deal is of 14 subs in all?


6 Qing class ordered in 2011 (deal signed), plus 8 in new approved deal composed of some S-26 (2600 t) and S-30 (3000t) based on latest Chinese submarine technologies..

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

ziaulislam said:


> haha, you are joking right..


 Not At all


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The SC said:


> 6 Qing class ordered in 2011 (deal signed), plus 8 in new approved deal composed of some S-26 (2600 t) and S-30 (3000t) based on latest Chinese submarine technologies..



Quite possible...

The 6 U-209/1200's the Turk's have are without AIP though.


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Quite possible...
> 
> The 6 U-209/1200's the Turk's have are without AIP though.


What other used European subs have AIP?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The SC said:


> What other used European subs have AIP?


Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Basel

Why Pakistan want to purchase used subs like U-209 which are in use of IN too. In near future even IN may retire those.

Agosta Class is superseded by S-80 class (which Spain wants), is it possible for Pakistan to go for those subs?? @Penguin how good Italian S-80 will be as they also supersede Scorpion subs.

S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That will be a good one, using Swedish Stirling cycle AIP. Are they available?
The Italians were offering the U-212 for export a while ago...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> Why Pakistan want to purchase used subs like U-209 which are in use of IN too. In near future even IN may retire those.
> 
> Agosta Class is superseded by S-80 class (which Spain wants), is it possible for Pakistan to go for those subs?? @Penguin how good Italian S-80 will be as they also supersede Scorpion subs.
> 
> S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> .
> Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Why would Pakistan Navy go for S-80 they are only 4 being made. 
U-214 is a better option.


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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Why would Pakistan Navy go for S-80 they are only 4 being made.
> U-214 is a better option.



Only 04 are ordered that is why 04 will be made but it also said that it is contender in new sub tender of IN. Also from news it looks like Germany and France will not offer new subs to Pakistan and if Germany offer those then they will ask huge amount which Pakistan may not be able to pay, that is why Pakistan should also look other possible vendors with good tech and S-80 supersedes Scorpion subs too.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> Only 04 are ordered that is why 04 will be made but it also said that it is contender in new sub tender of IN. Also from news it looks like Germany and France will not offer new subs to Pakistan and if Germany offer those then they will ask huge amount which Pakistan may not be able to pay, that is why Pakistan should also look other possible vendors with good tech and S-80 supersedes Scorpion subs too.


Lets see what happens and how does Pakistan play her cards.

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## araz

I have the following inkling to post. I know that the PN has been looking at 6 subs from China. The reasons as always are no other source, ease of integration of specific requirements and armament, soft loans and an unmatched price. PN is also aware of the dire need to replace the Augusta 70s which may have been upgraded but are now largely irrelevant in the subcontinental theatre. It has been searching far and wide for a possible second hand buy either from the french who are clearly not wanting to get involved for fear of losing the lucrative aviation deal. The Greek U214s may be an option if they become available as the Greeks clearly cannot keep them. I however don't think the Germans will play ball with us due to internal political problems and availability of suitable platforms. There is therefore talk of Turkish subs as well which is an indirect way of acquiring the same/ similar technology without breaking the bank.
The last aspect which does not make sense to me is where is all the money coming from, the answer to which may well be a joint Saudi effort to develop and train its Navy. Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at least covertly) has dissipated is it this factor which is ruling the sudden expansion of the naval armada of Pakistan. The possibility of buying New F22, ATRs, FACs and now the sub deal in conjunction with the HQ 9/16 deal points to a helpful hand rather than Pakistan's own meagre resources.
Araz

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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Why would Pakistan Navy go for S-80 they are only 4 being made.
> U-214 is a better option.


Why would they go for the U-214 now while paying 5 to 6 billion for newer submarines in par with it if not more suitable to Pakistani needs.
Now for the 5 billion $ deal (minimum), at let's say an average of 300 million $ per Submarine, that is the equivalent of 16 submarines for Pakistan with ToT, while a deal of the same amount would have bought Pakistan a maximum of 8 U-214/216 with no ToT and too many strings attached... 
This is the best deal that Pakistan can get.

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## Basel

As there are news that PN may look for used subs for its fleet, which capable used SSK are available for sale and how good they will be if upgraded?

People are talking about used UK, German & French subs but how about other options like Australian Collins class subs?

Collins-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## The SC

araz said:


> I have the following inkling to post. I know that the PN has been looking at 6 subs from China. The reasons as always are no other source, ease of integration of specific requirements and armament, soft loans and an unmatched price. PN is also aware of the dire need to replace the Augusta 70s which may have been upgraded but are now largely irrelevant in the subcontinental theatre. It has been searching far and wide for a possible second hand buy either from the french who are clearly not wanting to get involved for fear of losing the lucrative aviation deal. The Greek U214s may be an option if they become available as the Greeks clearly cannot keep them. I however dont think the Germans will play ball with us. There is therefore talk of Turkish subs as well.
> The last aspect which does not make sense to me is where is all the money coming from, the answer to which may well be a joint Saudi effort to develop and train its Navy. Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at peast covertly) has dissipated is it this factor which is ruling the sudden expansion of the naval armada of Pakistan. The possibility of buying New F22, ATRs, FACs and now the sub deal in conjunction with the HQ 9/16 deal points to a helpful hand rather than Pakistan's own meagre resources.
> Araz



Zakat, Ha! Ha! Ha!
Saudi Arabia and Malaysia wanted to have a submarine JV with Pakistan, maybe this is it. Pakistan with its existing Know-How in building submarines and the new acquired Know hows will make Pakistan the pivot, and will provide the much needed _own_ submarines to at least the 3 nations.


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## AsianLion

The SC said:


> Why would they go for the U-214 now while paying 5 to 6 billion for newer submarines in par with it if not more suitable to Pakistani needs.
> Now for the 5 billion $ deal (minimum), at let's say an average of 300 million $ per Submarine, that is the equivalent of 16 submarines for Pakistan with ToT, while a deal of the same amount would have bought Pakistan a maximum of 8 U-214/216 with no ToT and too many strings attached...
> This is the best deal that Pakistan can get.




I think PN is not confident that Chinese Subs are as good as German Type 216 / Type-214 or Spanish S-80 class or even its Agosta 90's AIP technology. It is just a choice out of compulsion. It prefers Quality over Quantity.

China has historic problems with AIP technology and Submarines construction, especially Weapon integration need further development....PN order of 6 Chinese S20, or the upgraded S26 with AIP was sufficient to fill numbers gap.


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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> I think PN is not confident that Chinese Subs are as good as German Type 216 / Type-214 or Spanish S-80 class or even its Agosta 90's AIP technology. It is just a choice out of compulsion. It prefers Quality over Quantity.
> 
> China has historic problems with AIP technology and Submarines construction, especially Weapon integration need further development....PN order of 6 Chinese S20, or the upgraded S26 with AIP was sufficient to fill numbers gap.


I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.

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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at peast covertly) has dissipated


Elaborate please.


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## araz

Any involvement that PA has will either be of defensive nature with activities strictly inside the Saudi territory. Even if PA ventures into Yemen it will be kept as a private venture and strictly denied in case of news leaking out. This is my own thinking so dont go around quoting me please.
Araz

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## Bossman

European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.

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## AsianLion

Bossman said:


> European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.


Where did u get this info ?



The SC said:


> I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
> 
> If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
> 
> If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
> 
> *Weapons integration* is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
> 
> The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
> 
> Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.




I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.

The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.

Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new. Do you know about western fuel cell AIP?

Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.

No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.

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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> Where did u get this info ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.
> 
> The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.
> 
> Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.
> 
> Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new.
> 
> Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.
> 
> No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.


You are right on most points, yet you should not underestimate the input of the Pakistani acquired know-how of western submarine technologies and its integration into these submarines., since they will be Pakistani specifics.
What Russian AIP are you talking about?


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## Zarvan

Can any one tell which western used submarines we are interested in ????


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## abbasalai

good news


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## Usama78

The good thing is, we finally care enough about the Navy too.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> I have the following inkling to post. I know that the PN has been looking at 6 subs from China. The reasons as always are no other source, ease of integration of specific requirements and armament, soft loans and an unmatched price. PN is also aware of the dire need to replace the Augusta 70s which may have been upgraded but are now largely irrelevant in the subcontinental theatre. It has been searching far and wide for a possible second hand buy either from the french who are clearly not wanting to get involved for fear of losing the lucrative aviation deal. The Greek U214s may be an option if they become available as the Greeks clearly cannot keep them. I however don't think the Germans will play ball with us due to internal political problems and availability of suitable platforms. There is therefore talk of Turkish subs as well which is an indirect way of acquiring the same/ similar technology without breaking the bank.
> The last aspect which does not make sense to me is where is all the money coming from, the answer to which may well be a joint Saudi effort to develop and train its Navy. Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at least covertly) has dissipated is it this factor which is ruling the sudden expansion of the naval armada of Pakistan. The possibility of buying New F22, ATRs, FACs and now the sub deal in conjunction with the HQ 9/16 deal points to a helpful hand rather than Pakistan's own meagre resources.
> Araz



This is what I have been Advocating since the last few pages regarding the Greek Subs but @Penguin stated that those are going to join the Greek Navy and are not available. Now PN has Turkey and South Korea which can collaborate in developing the U-214's. Last year during IDEAS 2014 there were reports that South Korea was interested in establishing manufacturing of naval equipment as well as cooperation in regards to aviation and a similar cooperation was also inked with Turkey. 

ATR aircraft that PN uses are the ATR-72-500 series which can be upgraded to 600 series like the Turkish Navy did. PN would be purchasing more used ATR-72-500 and then they would be upgraded.



AsianUnion said:


> Where did u get this info ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.
> 
> The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.
> 
> Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.
> 
> Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new. Do you know about western fuel cell AIP?
> 
> Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.
> 
> No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.


The Diesel engine is a German Engine most probably similar to the U212's. So it could be possible that the U212's could be heading to PN.



Bossman said:


> European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.


There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries. 

There is no indication that Germany would be repurchasing or these be sent to Pakistan however the Turkish Navy was interested but the Greeks refused to give them.

Type 214 submarine sale will be used to pay the Greek debt

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## Manindra

The SC said:


> I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, *like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all* and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
> If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
> If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
> Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
> The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
> Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.



@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Manindra said:


> @waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels


May be they run on water

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## Manindra

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> May be they run on water


Lol


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## araz

I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
Araz


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## Zarvan

araz said:


> I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
> Araz


Sir that is not just news that is what Navy Guys have told our NA Defence comittiee


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Sir that is not just news that is what Navy Guys have told our NA Defence comittiee


Lets wait and see. I think the number 8 included 2 out of the three subs which we wanted to acquire from Germany. What happens to the twelfth remains to be seen (8+3 90Bs). I maybe totally wrong but 14 subs is a large number and then what do we want them for?
Araz


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## Mutakalim

araz said:


> Lets wait and see. I think the number 8 included 2 out of the three subs which we wanted to acquire from Germany. What happens to the twelfth remains to be seen (8+3 90Bs). I maybe totally wrong but 14 subs is a large number and then what do we want them for?
> Araz



You are seeing any change of threat perception or change in current posture?


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## AsianLion

araz said:


> I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
> Araz




It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

We also need Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch non-conventional subs.

And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4 initial delivery, as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, relative new AIP technology and Weapons integration, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?


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## Zarvan

AsianUnion said:


> It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.
> 
> We also need Plus Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch subs.
> 
> And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4, initial delivery as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow to make them?


Neither 6 or 4 its 8 and we are going for 8 and I think its two type of Submarines most probably 4 each

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## AliWaqar

*SAy Whatever u Want to say GEnRels knows Better Then u   main ny tu yeah b para hai k hina Apna aircraft carrier b indian occan main bej raha ha to proteect pak china economic Door So Get ready Dude Now U ll Get Shocked after Every 3 Month*


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## araz

AsianUnion said:


> It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.
> 
> We also need Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch non-conventional subs.
> 
> And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4 initial delivery, as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, relative new AIP technology and Weapons integration, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?


Good luck trying to convince the french to sell you the parts required. The 90 b tech is old now. We need to move on.
Araz

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## AsianLion

Zarvan said:


> Neither 6 or 4 its 8 and we are going for 8 and I think its two type of Submarines most probably 4 each




We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?

I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.



araz said:


> Good luck trying to convince the french to sell you the parts required. The 90 b tech is old now. We need to move on.
> Araz




So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.

If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.


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## babbar

The SC said:


> I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
> If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
> If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
> Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
> The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
> Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.



Ha ha there has to be a limit to twisting facts into grand lies and wishful thinking clouding straight judgement even for a fanboy and cheerleader.

While the whole post has more holes than swiss cheese the all electric propulsion with no diesel engines at all takes the cake.

Salute to you and to your positive rating for that piece of work Sire!


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## araz

The SC said:


> Zakat, Ha! Ha! Ha!
> Saudi Arabia and Malaysia wanted to have a submarine JV with Pakistan, maybe this is it. Pakistan with its existing Know-How in building submarines and the new acquired Know hows will make Pakistan the pivot, and will provide the much needed _own_ submarines to at least the 3 nations.


I would not be so unkind. PN has a rich experience in using subs. The other countries want the relevant technological leap and. associated with it manpower to man the subs and train the land lubbers to become acquainted with the seas. This is why the thought came up in my mind. Nothing has changed in Pakistan to suddenly start forking out 5_6 billion dollars deals so one has to think how will the expense be paid.
Araz

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## PakShaheen79

*Pakistan's Quest for Modern Submarines Ended up with Chinese Platform*






_By Shahzad Masood Roomi_
Pakistani government has accepted the summery request of Pakistan Navy to purchase of 8 new submarines from China. This was revealed by Pakistan Navy officials on March 31 while briefing National Assembly's defence committee. It was also reported that Pakistan Navy is looking for conventional submarines from European sources as well.
The country was in search of an affordable diesel electric submarine (SSK) since which could provide customization for Pakistani developed cruise missiles (CM) and Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles (SLBM). This capability was critical for Pakistan Navy's submarine to put Pakistan's Naval strategic force command (NSFC) in operation. Current fleet of Pakistan Navy submarine comprises on French Agosta-90B and Agosta-70 submarine with no capability to fire CM or SLBM. Though Agosta 90-B is capable firing SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles but it lacks the ability to launch long range cruise and ballistic missiles.
The negotiations between Pakistan and China on a submarine deal initiated in 2011 when India opted for French made Scorpion submarines which are more advanced than Pakistani Agosta-90Bs acquired in 1990s. Six Scorpene submarines are currently being built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd in Mumbai with technology from French firm DCNS under project code named P-75. Around the same time when India initiated project -75, Pakistan was also interested in German built Type-214 SSKs which were considered an adequate response of modernization of Indian submarine fleet. But issues like higher cost and German refusal to upgrade the subs to make them able to fire cruise missiles. Pakistan already has tested surface and air launched cruise missiles and a submarine launched version is next logical step.
Though it is not clear which type has been selected by Pakistan Navy but IHS Janes has reported a Pakistani Foreign Ministry official saying that "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines". It is believed that Yuan Class (Type 041) submarine has displacement in between 3500-4000 ton and is equipped with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles (Mach 0.9, Range = 120 km), YJ-803 (180 Km) and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried. Yuan class is considered the successor of Type 039 Song Class submarine making it 3rd model of Chinese indigenous SSKs. Type 039 itself was a successor of Type 035 Ming Class submarine. Type 041, just like 039, is believed to be a combination of both western and Chinese technologies. Germany supplied propulsion system for Type-039 and according to a secret Indian report published in 2013, China was to built 15 more Yuan class submarines with German engines. In Type 039, three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesel engines drive the large asymmetrical seven-bladed skewed propeller through a single shaft. The sub is said to have an operational range of 8,000 km. According to Global Security website, The Yuan incorporates lessons from the PLAN's experience with the Kilo. The Yuan incorporates some of the best features of the Song and the Kilo. Equipped with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, the Type 041 has also an export version as well which has been dubbed as S-20 with some reduced capabilities such as AIP system, lower total length (66m vs 75m of Type-041) and lower displacement around 2300 tons. It is not clear, if Pakistan has opted for S-20 (with modular AIP as is being offered by Chinese) or the original Type 041 which has been deployed by PLAN but there is a general consensus among maritime experts that these submarines would come with some specific customization as per the requirements of Pakistan Navy. Some sources also of the view that Pakistan Navy is looking to work with two Chinese submarines S-26 and S-30 and both of these are based on new Type-032 Qing Class conventional submarine which remains more advanced than Type 041. Qing Class submarines have a length of more than 92 meters and displacement in excess of 6500 tons. AIP equipped submarine has special Vertical Launch (VLS) tubes for CJ-10 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM). The deal for Qing class between Pakistan and China was reported in 2011. Both Yuan and Qing class submarines are believed to equipped with CY-1 anti-submarine rocket as well. Type-032 was completed in 2013 and has been in sea trials since then. 
It is also believed that Pakistan will built some of these submarines under transfer of technology just like Pakistan build one of four Chinese F-22P frigates. Reportedly, these subs would be built at Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) in Orama. There is no confirmed official statement regarding the cost of this entire fleet of submarines but there is a general understanding that an AIP equipped submarine equipped with anti-ship cruise missiles will not cost anything less than $400 million. Buy this estimation the minimum total cost of 8 submarines would be around $4 billion including training, logistics and ToT making it the largest order in history of Pakistan Navy. China will probably provide Pakistan with soft loan for this deal just like JF-17 fighter program, 
*ANALYSIS*
A deal of 8 Chinese conventional subs would be a leap forward in Pakistan's maritime security considering the prevailing balance of maritime power projection balance in Arabian Sea which is overwhelming in Indian Navy's favor. Indians are monitoring this deal very closely. After the evolution of Indian submarine fleet and its proposed future plans, such a deal from Pakistan was expected since long. The decision should had been made in 2010-11 times but most probably Pakistan Navy was also keen to observe Chinese submarine program and its success. All the potential Chinese submarines discussed above are part of PLAN fleet since number of years now and this gave Pakistan Navy evaluation team considerable confidence in Chinese system. Considering Pakistan's demand for customized platforms made China the obvious choice for such project. 

But if we look closely at this news, this is not all about Chinese submarines. Pakistan Navy is looking for European platforms as well in form of used subs. Question is, Why so many sub-surface platforms Pakistan is keen to induct? What Pakistan is trying to achieve here in strategic sense with such procurement? One possible explanation of this quest is enhanced requirements of Pakistan Navy due to recent extension in Pakistan's maritime boundaries. Another and more precise answer would be one encompassing Pakistan's Naval Strategic Force Command and its operational status. Evidently, Pakistan is looking for having two tiers in its submarine fleet like all major naval powers. One consisting on conventional submarines like Agosta-90Bs and whatever used sub Pakistan can get from Europe while second tier consisting on submarines capable to firing SLBM giving Pakistan robust 2nd strike capability by the end of the decade as part of its minimum strategic deterrence policy. It must be remembered that the requirement of 12 conventional submarine were orignally part of the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP), a comprehensive program envisioned in 2010 for long term modernization of all three forces of Pakistan. 


Security and Threat Matrix: Pakistan's Quest for Modern Submarines Ended up with Chinese Platform

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## kaku1

AsianUnion said:


> Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?


You think if this is that much simple, then why other countries still hanging around?


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## araz

AsianUnion said:


> We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?
> 
> I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.
> 
> If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.


You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes. 
Araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes.
> Araz


We do have steel mills in Pakistan which are going through expansions with the help of our friends. All these developments would require them to produce the steel. Moreover it might be possible that these also require some parts made by 3D printing and composites. It could indicate revival of Steel mills and ship building in Pakistan.

Iron ore can be purchased even China requires to purchase iron so it is not difficult.

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## kaku1

araz said:


> You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes.
> Araz


Yes, you truly correct,


Ship and submarine building is not a cakewalk (the most difficult part is designing),,
one have to study Indian case, even after building Arihant class, still India not able to build SSK. Why? There is serious manpower crunch inside even in Indian shipyards.

In 2006, no one think about MDL gonna have serious manpower crunch after Arihant order. In 2007, when Indian Govt. ordered L&T for Arihant, L&T hired all designers, welders and engineers from MDL, with more perks and salary.
That caused Scorpene delay, the MDL had to train its whole new employees from scratch.

Definitely even after designing capability and construction of submarine, L&T is already overbooked after clearance of SSN. And MDL with Scorpene, so thats why India chooses P-75I.

One thing to note, before Arihant and Kolkata, all the warship grade steel was imported from Russia, when in 2005 Russia refused to provide, then SAIL developed the warship grade steel.

There are lot of serious trouble in shipbuilding/submarine building than we think of.

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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> We do have steel mills in Pakistan which are going through expansions with the help of our friends. All these developments would require them to produce the steel. Moreover it might be possible that these also require some parts made by 3D printing and composites. It could indicate revival of Steel mills and ship building in Pakistan.
> 
> Iron ore can be purchased even China requires to purchase iron so it is not difficult.


Bhai .
I have been away from Pakistan for nearly 25 yrs. What I stated was in light of the situation as it stood in 2010 or before. At that time we did not have the facility. There was only one specialized steel unit in Pakistan which had been shut for a long time which the army was trying to revitalise. Iam glad to hear that there is move a foot to rectify the matter. However I would like to say that anti magnetic steel which is fairly specialized might not be manufactured in Pakistan and rolls may have to be acquired from st else where. There is an aspect where research is required. If you have updated knowledge I would be more than happy to learn.
Araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

AsianUnion said:


> We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?
> 
> I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.
> 
> If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.



If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90. 
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.


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## Zarvan

AsianUnion said:


> We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?
> 
> I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.
> 
> If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.


We are buying good Subs and I think we should build one more Augusta 8 from China and two nuclear


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## AsianLion

@araz : We do have lots of steel made in Pakistan. Generally, people are thinking Chinese Subs are equal or lesser to Agosta 90s, if not better. We do not know the AIP technology used in S-20s and whether they will be on S-20 / 039s. S-20s / 039s are small submarines. That is why, due to lack of knowledge, we are not fed complete information. Lets hope the Type 041, latest ones are the most modern PN gets, with AIP, and SLCM system at the bare minimum to have any big impact. My fingers are crossed.



Zarvan said:


> We are buying good Subs and I think we should build one more Augusta 8 from China and two nuclear




S20s are just good subs, not enough information available yet, but Western ones with better steel quality to say longer submerged and better AIP technology to remain undetected underwater much longer, good weapons integration with a variety of modular design, - have an edge over Chinese subs. The PN or Govt as yet to confirm the total numbers in final deal signing, as well as which western subs are we going to finally buy for $4 billion. I agree we need 1-2 Agosta's with AIPs, two Nuclear based Ballistic Missile subs are a must, otherwise its no good.
@ACE OF THE AIR


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@AsianUnion 

At present only 3 Agosta subs are available but those are older then the ones PN operates and the updates are also not known. State of AIP is also unknown and would PN be given AIP by France once it is decided that these 3 are bought. 
PN has been refused any newer subs by France hence this leaves PN with a new type of sub. 

Now if PN is going for larger Chinese Subs then the western subs would definitely be smaller or similar in size to the Agosta's. 

Options

German U-209's but these are old design (highly unlikely) might not be available due to India.
German U-214/216's These are available through Turkey, Italy, Greece, Germany and South Korea. (Highly Likely in PN) Available.
Spanish S-80 A new sub developed from the Agosta (PN might not want to have this as this would not be too different to the Agosta's). might not be Available due to INDIA
Swedish Gotland class / Sodermanland Class (These might not be available).


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## PakShaheen79

Just to clear the confusion on Chinese diesel electric SSKs

Type 032 Qing Class -- Only one built. Undergoing test and evaluation. Biggest conventional sub in the world. (92 m)
Type 039 - Song Class 
Type 041 - Yuan Class
Type S-20 ...Export version of Yuan without AIP. (Though due to its modular design, provision of AIP module is there on customer request.)

So here is my question about Qing class. I have read on internet and on this very threat that in 2011 Pak-China finalized deal for Qing class sub but at the same time they put its displacement @ 3000 ton. Furthermore, Qing construction completed in 2013. how come Pak-China signed deal for a project which was not even evaluated?


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## truthseeker2010

Does somebody know how many weapons does S-20 carry?

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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Why Pakistan want to purchase used subs like U-209 which are in use of IN too. In near future even IN may retire those.
> 
> Agosta Class is superseded by S-80 class (which Spain wants), is it possible for Pakistan to go for those subs?? @Penguin how good Italian S-80 will be as they also supersede Scorpion subs.
> 
> S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> .
> Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> but @Penguin stated that those are going to join the Greek Navy and are not available.
> 
> There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries.
> 
> Type 214 submarine sale will be used to pay the Greek debt


From that article
"On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."

So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.

There are no 212s in Greece.


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> May be they run on water



*Impacts of electric propulsion systems on submarine design.*

Thesis (Degree of Naval Engineer and M.S. in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) Massachusetts Institute of Technology, June 1989

A theoretical study was carried out on the effects of replacing submarine turbine-reduction gear propulsion drive systems with an equivalent electric drive system. Alternating current (A.C.) and direct current (D.C.) systems were designed using computer based machine synthesis programs. The systems considered included direct drive motors operating at the speed of the submarine drive shaft and motors operating at higher speeds in conjunction with integral single stage reduction gears. Methods to improve the efficiency of the various motors for speeds other than rated speed were examined. The impacts of the electric system designs were evaluated in terms of the ability of a mechanical drive submarine design to accept the replacement of the mechanical components with the equivalent electric components and meet standard submarine design closure criteria. All electric drive variants met the basic naval architectural feasibility requirements. Electric drive systems were heavier, required less arrangeable volume and were generally less efficient than the mechanical baseline ship. Gear reduced electric systems were lighter and more than the direct drive, low speed motor based systems. Electric submarine drive is a feasible alternative to conventional mechanical, locked train transmission systems. Electric drive installations carry penalties in terms of added weight and reduced propulsion plant efficiency that must be recognized and accepted by the ship designer. Keywords: Theses; Submarine engineering; Electric propulsion system

Impacts of electric propulsion systems on submarine design. : Ballard, Michael A. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Getting Electric Terminology* *

Electric Drive*
A propulsion system that uses an electric motor to turn the ship's propeller.*

Integrated Electric Power System*
A design whereby the electric drive propulsion system and the ship's service electrical system are powered from electrical sources in such a way that power can be distributed between them, on demand, according to the current operational situation; also referred to as integrated electric drive. 
*

All Electric Ship*
A ship with an integrated electric power system, in which all hydraulic, pneumatic, or other actuation devices or systems; an eventual extension of an integrated electric power system.
*
An Integrated Electric Power System: the Next Step

---------------------------------------------------------

Here is a good read on Electric drive

Going Electric: The History and Future of Naval Electric Drive

Going Electric: The History and Future of Naval Electric Drive | Defense Media Network
*



babbar said:


> Ha ha there has to be a limit to twisting facts into grand lies and wishful thinking clouding straight judgement even for a fanboy and cheerleader.
> 
> While the whole post has more holes than swiss cheese the all electric propulsion with no diesel engines at all takes the cake.
> 
> Salute to you and to your positive rating for that piece of work Sire!



Just point out the holes if you have something interesting to say, and read my last post on the electric drive propulsion, you might learn a thing or two.

Thanx for the comment sire!


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## Basel

Penguin said:


> U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
> On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> From that article
> "On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."
> 
> So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.
> 
> There are no 212s in Greece.



Will it be wise decision of PN to go for U-209s used ones which IN also use U-209/1500?? are they better then Agosta-90Bs with AIP??


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## araz

UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.[/QUOTE]
Yara
please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
araz


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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Will it be wise decision of PN to go for U-209s used ones which IN also use U-209/1500??


How is it at all relevant that IN has 209/1500s?



Basel said:


> are they better then Agosta-90Bs with AIP??


It has been proven possible to upgrade the 209 submarines with the latest air independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. While the program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade.

209 is faster submerged, dives deeper, has smaller crew, has 8 rather than 4 torpedo tubes. Don't know about noise levels, which is of course a critical variable.
Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Basel

Penguin said:


> How is it at all relevant that IN has 209/1500s?
> 
> 
> It has been proven possible to upgrade the 209 submarines with the latest air independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. While the program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade.
> 
> 209 is faster submerged, dives deeper, has smaller crew, has 8 rather than 4 torpedo tubes. dpm
> t know about noise levels, which is of course a critical variable.
> Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You mean that IN's U-209s will be more lethal then PN's Agosta-90Bs?? but still IN know every thing about those subs that is why not wise to purchase those.


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## Penguin

Incidentally, where did this 209 talk come from?


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## Basel

Penguin said:


> Incidentally, where did this 209 talk come from?



It was part of the news in which it was said in Pakistani media that Pakistan will buy 8 Chinese subs and used subs from Germany, France etc.


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## Zarvan

truthseeker2010 said:


> Does somebody know how many weapons does S-20 carry?


There is massive confusion weather we are buyung S20 or else


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## The SC

araz said:


> I would not be so unkind. PN has a rich experience in using subs. The other countries want the relevant technological leap and. associated with it manpower to man the subs and train the land lubbers to become acquainted with the seas. This is why the thought came up in my mind. Nothing has changed in Pakistan to suddenly start forking out 5_6 billion dollars deals so one has to think how will the expense be paid.
> Araz


Zakat was a joke.
I have stated why Pakistan might get some help, like guarantees for soft loans... It is due to the acquired know-how and the willingness of other nations to share it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.

The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.

This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.

No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.

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## A1Kaid

Dr. Stranglove said:


> no money no honey



Pakistan has the money, this isn't Zardari era. Government revenues have increased by billions of dollars since PM Nawaz Sharif has taken place. If there wasn't money in place these talks wouldn't be happening.

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## The SC

araz said:


> UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
> If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.
> 
> Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.





> Yara
> please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
> araz



Think about the span of time for the acquisitions. If it is 10 years, than it sums up to less than a billion$ a year... for 5 years its 2 billion $ a year, both options are affordable for Pakistan, add the fact of soft loans and you can see that it is more than affordable, and we are talking about 10 billion $ deals not 7 or 8...



Manindra said:


> @waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels


*
In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.

The first Qing class built for Chinese Navy was launched last year and will be going through the sea trial this month 6/2011 which will include the firing of CJ-10K LACms with a range of 1,500 KM.*

*The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine, These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/06/pakistan-navy-to-get-6-qing-class.html
Pakistan Navy To Get 6 QING Class Submarines And 2 Typ 054A FFGs From China - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS*

**

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## Muhammad Omar

What we are getting 2 type 54a Frigates to???? and 4 F-22 and 6-8 subs from China

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## The SC

Details emerge on Chinese 'Type 032' submarine
Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Navy International
23 July 2013

Data from a Chinese poster display has offered surprising insights into the country's latest conventional missile submarine (SSB), which was first seen at the Wuhan Shipyard in September 2010.

The mystery submarine was notable for a large sail and under-hull extension that were believed to be designed to enable China to test new submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs).

The recent image appears to confirm the submarine is a replacement for the long-serving Type 031, a former Soviet Project 629 'Golf'-class conventional missile submarine (SSB) built in China in the mid-1960s.

The boat is believed to be designated 'Type 032', with data indicating that development began in January 2005 and construction started in January 2008.

http://www.janes.com/article/24901/details-emerge-on-chinese-type-032-submarine

The Type 032 is China's first indigenous conventional AIP submarine that will be equipped with VLS. The successful testing and development of this submarine type may accelerate the drive for similarly VLS-equipped conventional submarines in other Asian nations.



Muhammad Omar said:


> What we are getting 2 type 54a Frigates to???? and 4 F-22 and 6-8 subs from China


Do not know about the frigates, maybe they were replaced by 4 upgraded (VLS?) F-22s.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.
> 
> The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.
> 
> This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
> 
> No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.


China can not sell the nuclear subs. It can lease them or better yet assist Pakistan in making its own.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> Details emerge on Chinese 'Type 032' submarine
> Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Navy International
> 23 July 2013
> 
> Data from a Chinese poster display has offered surprising insights into the country's latest conventional missile submarine (SSB), which was first seen at the Wuhan Shipyard in September 2010.
> 
> The mystery submarine was notable for a large sail and under-hull extension that were believed to be designed to enable China to test new submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs).
> 
> The recent image appears to confirm the submarine is a replacement for the long-serving Type 031, a former Soviet Project 629 'Golf'-class conventional missile submarine (SSB) built in China in the mid-1960s.
> 
> The boat is believed to be designated 'Type 032', with data indicating that development began in January 2005 and construction started in January 2008.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/24901/details-emerge-on-chinese-type-032-submarine
> 
> The Type 032 is China's first indigenous conventional AIP submarine that will be equipped with VLS. The successful testing and development of this submarine type may accelerate the drive for similarly VLS-equipped conventional submarines in other Asian nations.
> 
> 
> Do not know about the frigates, maybe they were replaced by 4 upgraded (VLS?) F-22s.
> 
> 
> China can not sell the nuclear subs. It can lease them or better yet assist Pakistan in making its own.



The SSN deal can undergo secretly under the deal of the SSK.


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## The SC

*Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent*

Report by Prasun K. Sengupta: "Submarine Sails"
Wednesday June 22, 2011 04:42:25 GMT

Pakistan's efforts to have a sea-based minimum credible nuclear deterrent vis-a-vis India took a significant step forward last month when the state-owned, Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) ferried the first Qing-class conventional attack submarine (SSK) to Shanghai to begin a year-long series of sea trials, which is likely to
include the test-firing of three CJ-10K submarine-launched, 1,500km-range land attack cruise missiles (LACM) capable of being armed with unitary tactical nuclear warheads. Called the Qing-class SSK, it is a variant of the Type 041A Improved Yuan-class SSK, which is also due to begin its sea trials later this month.

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail.

The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&amp;D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for
the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation
with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial
navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.

In another development, during Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's four-day official visit to China beginning May 17, the decks were cleared for the Pakistan Navy to acquire for a 10-year lease period the two Jiangkai I-class Type 054 guided-missile frigates (FFG) Ma'anshan (FFG-525) and Wenzhou (FFG-526), which have been in service with the PLA Navy's East Sea Fleet since 2005 (see FORCE December 2010, pages 44-46).

The Type 054 Jiangkai I-class FFG, built by CSTC's Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and the Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, displaces around 4,300 tonnes, and comes armed with twin quadruple
launchers amidships housing the YJ-83 anti-ship cruise missile (equipped with a 165kg warhead), one CPMIEC-built eight-cell Hong Qi-7 short-range SAM system designed to engage aircraft in all-weather conditions out to a range of 12km, a single-barrel 100mm main gun developed by China's 713 Institute, four six-barrel 30mm AK-630M clo se-in weapon systems (CIWS), twin 18-tube countermeasures dispensers, and twin Type 87 six-tube 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, with 36 rockets. The FFG has a combat management system built by China Electronics Technology Group Corp (CETC), and a sensor suite that includes a Type 360S 2-D air/surface radar operating in E/F-band and having a range of 150km, one I-band MR-36A surface search radar, an I-band Type 347G radar for CIWS fire-control, an I/J-band Type 344 radar for main gun targeting, SNTI-240 SATCOM radio, HZ-100 EW suite, twin I-band RM-1290 navigation radars, and a J-band Type 345 radar for fire-control of the Hong Q i-7. The FFG also comes fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed hull-mounted medium-frequency active/passive panoramic sonar suite. The propulsion system is of the combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement and employs four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN DieselSA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines to give the FFG a cruise speed of 27Knots.
China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC's production rights in the late 1990s and is now producing the engines locally under licence at Shaanxi Diesel Factory. Each 16 PA6V-280 engine can produce a sustained power of 4,720kW (6,330hp), giving a total power of 18,880kW (25,320hp). The Jiangkai 1-class Type 054 FFG also has a helicopter deck capable of housing a Harbin Z-9EC multi-role shipborne helicopter, three of which are presently in service with the Pakistan Navy.

The Global Intelligence Files - CHINA/ASIA PACIFIC-Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent

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## Penguin

Basel said:


> It was part of the news in which it was said in Pakistani media that Pakistan will buy 8 Chinese subs and used subs from Germany, France etc.


What used subs does Germany of France have?


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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The SSN deal can undergo secretly under the deal of the SSK.


There are too many international complications for that . Pakistan can make its own SSNs. General Musharaf has stated it in 1986, that is 20 years ago...

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## Penguin

Basel said:


> You mean that IN's U-209s will be more lethal then PN's Agosta-90Bs??


Just comparing performance figures.



Basel said:


> but still IN know every thing about those subs that is why not wise to purchase those.


So what? The reverse is also the case.
Plus, you are assuming the subs would be identically equipped, which isn't necessarily the case.

In short, it doesn't give IN an advantage.

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## Víðarr

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, _better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class_.



I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have nothing to validate that claim right?

And even if it were true, which Virginia are you talking about? Block's I, II, and III have different technologies in them.


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> What used subs does Germany of France have?


Forget about France. There is the possibility of German AIP U-212. I do not think that Germany is operating any U-209, but if it is than they most probably have AIP.
The U-212 can be also purchased from Italy.


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> Forget about France. There is the possibility of German AIP U-212. I do not think that Germany is still operating any U-209, but if it is than they most probably have AIP.
> The U-212 can be also purchased from Italy.


Germany has never operated any 209: it is a pure export product. Germany and Italy have co-developed and produced 212A for their navies.

France had 4 Agosta and 4 Daphne in 1992, 4 Agosta's in operation in 1996, 3 in 1998, 2 in 2000, and 0 in 2002.


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> Germany has never operated any 209: it is a pure export product. Germany and Italy have co-developed and produced 212A for their navies.


Italy was offering the 212A on international markets. So it might be it.

Italy's *Fincantieri* Shipyard is currently manufacturing *Type 212A* submarines based on designs ... The Italian shipyard *Fincantieri* offers two vessels for *export*:.

Source: "Naval Vessel: U212A," Fincantieri, Fincantieri | Costruzioni navali - Navi da crociera, mercantili e militari - Costruzione Yacht di lusso


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## Penguin

Italy's Type 212A boats are being built by Fincantieri in cooperation with Germany's HDW based on a Memorandum of Understanding between the Italian and German defense ministries. The Italian submarines are being manufactured on the basis of German designs and the boats' equipment is similar to that of the German Type 212s but they will use different torpedoes and electro-optic masts. The vessels have also been adapted to operate in the Mediterranean's warmer waters. The first Type 212A vessel, _Salvatore Todaro_ S 526l, was commissioned in January 2005 and entered into service in May 2006. The second boat in this class, _Scirè_ S 527, was commissioned in January 2007 and entered into service in 2008. Two additional Type 212A vessels were ordered in August 2008 and are currently being built at Fincantieri Shipyard in Muggiano - they are scheduled to be delivered to the Italian Navy in 2015 and 2016.

The Italian built boats use Germany/Siemens AIP
Siemens delivers technology for new Italian submarines


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## Manticore

*Differences and Explanation of the U-214 SSK family, U209PN and U-212*
*Modern Submarine Discussions | Page 10*


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> Italy's Type 212A boats are being built by Fincantieri in cooperation with Germany's HDW based on a Memorandum of Understanding between the Italian and German defense ministries. The Italian submarines are being manufactured on the basis of German designs and the boats' equipment is similar to that of the German Type 212s but they will use different torpedoes and electro-optic masts. The vessels have also been adapted to operate in the Mediterranean's warmer waters. The first Type 212A vessel, _Salvatore Todaro_ S 526l, was commissioned in January 2005 and entered into service in May 2006. The second boat in this class, _Scirè_ S 527, was commissioned in January 2007 and entered into service in 2008. Two additional Type 212A vessels were ordered in August 2008 and are currently being built at Fincantieri Shipyard in Muggiano - they are scheduled to be delivered to the Italian Navy in 2015 and 2016.
> 
> The Italian built boats use Germany/Siemens AIP
> Siemens delivers technology for new Italian submarines



Italy's *Fincantieri* Shipyard is currently manufacturing *Type 212A* submarines based on designs ... The Italian shipyard *Fincantieri* offers two vessels for *export*:.

Source: "Naval Vessel: U212A," Fincantieri, Fincantieri | Costruzioni navali - Navi da crociera, mercantili e militari - Costruzione Yacht di lusso


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## Zarvan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.
> 
> The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.
> 
> This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
> 
> No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.


I agree Sir we should have 14 Submarines and out of which two should be Nuclear like Type 93G


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## Zarvan

The SC said:


> *Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent*
> 
> Report by Prasun K. Sengupta: "Submarine Sails"
> Wednesday June 22, 2011 04:42:25 GMT
> 
> Pakistan's efforts to have a sea-based minimum credible nuclear deterrent vis-a-vis India took a significant step forward last month when the state-owned, Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) ferried the first Qing-class conventional attack submarine (SSK) to Shanghai to begin a year-long series of sea trials, which is likely to
> include the test-firing of three CJ-10K submarine-launched, 1,500km-range land attack cruise missiles (LACM) capable of being armed with unitary tactical nuclear warheads. Called the Qing-class SSK, it is a variant of the Type 041A Improved Yuan-class SSK, which is also due to begin its sea trials later this month.
> 
> It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail.
> 
> The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&amp;D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for
> the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.
> 
> The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation
> with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial
> navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.
> 
> In another development, during Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's four-day official visit to China beginning May 17, the decks were cleared for the Pakistan Navy to acquire for a 10-year lease period the two Jiangkai I-class Type 054 guided-missile frigates (FFG) Ma'anshan (FFG-525) and Wenzhou (FFG-526), which have been in service with the PLA Navy's East Sea Fleet since 2005 (see FORCE December 2010, pages 44-46).
> 
> The Type 054 Jiangkai I-class FFG, built by CSTC's Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and the Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, displaces around 4,300 tonnes, and comes armed with twin quadruple
> launchers amidships housing the YJ-83 anti-ship cruise missile (equipped with a 165kg warhead), one CPMIEC-built eight-cell Hong Qi-7 short-range SAM system designed to engage aircraft in all-weather conditions out to a range of 12km, a single-barrel 100mm main gun developed by China's 713 Institute, four six-barrel 30mm AK-630M clo se-in weapon systems (CIWS), twin 18-tube countermeasures dispensers, and twin Type 87 six-tube 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, with 36 rockets. The FFG has a combat management system built by China Electronics Technology Group Corp (CETC), and a sensor suite that includes a Type 360S 2-D air/surface radar operating in E/F-band and having a range of 150km, one I-band MR-36A surface search radar, an I-band Type 347G radar for CIWS fire-control, an I/J-band Type 344 radar for main gun targeting, SNTI-240 SATCOM radio, HZ-100 EW suite, twin I-band RM-1290 navigation radars, and a J-band Type 345 radar for fire-control of the Hong Q i-7. The FFG also comes fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed hull-mounted medium-frequency active/passive panoramic sonar suite. The propulsion system is of the combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement and employs four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN DieselSA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines to give the FFG a cruise speed of 27Knots.
> China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC's production rights in the late 1990s and is now producing the engines locally under licence at Shaanxi Diesel Factory. Each 16 PA6V-280 engine can produce a sustained power of 4,720kW (6,330hp), giving a total power of 18,880kW (25,320hp). The Jiangkai 1-class Type 054 FFG also has a helicopter deck capable of housing a Harbin Z-9EC multi-role shipborne helicopter, three of which are presently in service with the Pakistan Navy.
> 
> The Global Intelligence Files - CHINA/ASIA PACIFIC-Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent


We need to have two Submarines like Type 93G and also need Destroyers

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## ChineseTiger1986

Zarvan said:


> We need to have two Submarines like Type 93G and also need Destroyers



I think KSA will be generous to provide the fund.

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## Penguin

The SC said:


> Italy's *Fincantieri* Shipyard is currently manufacturing *Type 212A* submarines based on designs ... The Italian shipyard *Fincantieri* offers two vessels for *export*:.
> 
> Source: "Naval Vessel: U212A," Fincantieri, Fincantieri | Costruzioni navali - Navi da crociera, mercantili e militari - Costruzione Yacht di lusso





> U212 Submarine represents the result of the Agreement signed on April 1996 between German and Italian MoD’s for a Joint German - Italian Submarine Programme. Two submarines have been realized for Italian Program: Todaro (2006) and Scirè (2007).


Submarine=



> Promoted by ITALIAN MoD, the cooperation between FINCANTIERI Naval Vessel Business Unit and Russian Partner State-Owned Enterprise Central Design Bureau For Marine Engineering “RUBIN” (under the aegis of Russian Federal State Unitary Enterprise “ROSOBORONEXPORT“), resulted in the S1000 design, which have been designed on the basis of the most cost-effective equipments of both Countries.


Submarine=

S1000






Amur 950





S1000-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Both Fincantieri and Rubin gave a joint presentation to the Indian Navy offering to build 6 S1000 boats for $3.5 billion
The other contenders for the project include the Scorpène class submarine of France, the Type 214 submarine of Germany and the Amur class submarine itself from Russia

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## The SC

Zarvan said:


> We need to have two Submarines like Type 93G and also need Destroyers


Those would have to be made in Pakistan with indigenous nuclear reactors, the rest can be borrowed from China, just to conform to the international arms conventions. But a lease is always possible.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Zarvan said:


> I agree Sir we should have 14 Submarines and out of which two should be Nuclear like Type 93G



China could provide two, then the rest could be built in Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think KSA will be generous to provide the fund.


I think even for these 8 its KSA providing funds

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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> Those would have to be made in Pakistan with indigenous nuclear reactors, the rest can be borrowed from China, just to conform to the international arms conventions. But a lease is always possible.



China could transfer the ToT of the newly designed nuclear reactor to Pakistan.


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> Submarine=
> 
> 
> Submarine=
> 
> S1000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amur 950
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S1000-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Both Fincantieri and Rubin gave a joint presentation to the Indian Navy offering to build 6 S1000 boats for $3.5 billion
> The other contenders for the project include the Scorpène class submarine of France, the Type 214 submarine of Germany and the Amur class submarine itself from Russia



Who cares, your answer is not relevant to the subject being discussed, we are talking about the possibilities for used European submarines. And I am bringing the fact that type-212A is available from Italy, for two submarines.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China could transfer the ToT of the newly designed nuclear reactor to Pakistan.


That is a possibility , still, I do think that Pakistan has its own miniaturized nuclear reactor for what it needs. i'e; a small nuclear submarine of around 6000/7000t.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> That is a possibility , still, I do think that Pakistan has its own miniaturized nuclear reactor for what it needs. i'e; a small nuclear submarine of around 6000/7000t.



A 6000-7000 tons SSN is surely not small, unless you were talking about the SSBN.


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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> A 6000-7000 tons SSN is surely not small, unless you were talking about the SSBN.


That is the smallest one can get, smaller than that was the first US nuclear submarine "The Nautilus" at 5000t with no weapons at all.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> That is the smallest one can get, smaller than that was the first US nuclear submarine "The Nautilus" at 5000t with no weapons at all.



The current US SSBNs are huge like the Ohio class, but their current SSN varies from 6000 tons to 12000 tons.

The most common SSN for the USN is the LA class which displaces about 6000-7000 tons.

So even by the USN standard, a 6000-7000 tons nuclear sub is not meant to be small.


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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The current US SSBNs are huge like the Ohio class, but their current SSN varies from 6000 tons to 12000 tons.
> 
> The most common SSN for the USN is the LA class which displaces about 6000-7000 tons.
> 
> So even by the USN standard, a 6000-7000 tons nuclear sub is not meant to be small.


Small is a relative word here, it is in comparison with the double its size SSBNs. So we can talk about a normal sized 6000/7000t SSN for Pakistan.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> Small is a relative word here, it is in comparison with the double its size SSBNs. So we can talk about a normal sized 6000/7000t SSN for Pakistan.



I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.

Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.

So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.

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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.
> 
> Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.
> 
> So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.


I agree with you, and it should be made in Pakistan with ToT.


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China*

Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

*The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.*

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from* France*, *Germany*, and the *UK*, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

*Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.*

*Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.*

*However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.*

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

*He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.*

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

*Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."*

*Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible*, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and *according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.*

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the time frame of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

*Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."*

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

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## black-hawk_101

Will PN be able to manufacture 8 Chinese submarines in just 5 years time by utilizing 2 Dry Docks at KS&EWs?


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## Zarvan

*Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China*
By Usman Ansari9:09 a.m. EDT April 3, 2015
 69TWEET 17LINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."
Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

*WORLD VIEW: CHINA TO SELL EIGHT ADVANCED SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN, ENCIRCLING INDIA*







Xinhua/Yao Dawei/AFP
by JOHN J. XENAKIS4 Apr 201544


This morning’s key headlines from GenerationalDynamics.com


China to sell eight advanced submarines to Pakistan, encircling India
As Russia-Saudi relations deteriorate, Egypt tries a middle road
Greece turns to Russia and China, amid reports of imminent default
*China to sell eight advanced submarines to Pakistan, encircling India*
_




Submarine image from Pakistan Defense_

The naval arms race between India and Pakistan took a big leap forward this week, as Pakistan signed a deal to acquire eight advanced conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines from China. Pakistan’s Ministry of Defense said that the eight submarines were being purchased from China to address the force imbalance with India, as India has been expanding its own fleet.

China and Pakistan are “all-weather” friends, and this is a particularly large military sale. Also, as a sign of Pakistan’s close relationship with China, this is the first time China has exported its submarines to anyone.

India has been expanding its fleet not just because of Pakistan, but because of China. China has been rapidly expanding its own fleet ( “28-Feb-15 World View — US Navy says that China now has more attack submarines than US”), and India claims that China has been “encircling” India with naval bases.

The Indians particularly point to the Gwadar Port on the Indian Ocean in Pakistan, which China has been developing. The port serves a dual purpose. On the one hand, it is a military naval base. But it is also a way for China to avoid maritime choke points in the Indian and Pacific oceans by moving Persian Gulf oil and gas over land from Gwadar to China.

China claims to have three principles in selling arms to other counts:


The arms must be for self-defense.
The weapons must not impair the peace, security and stability of the region.
The weapons sales must not interfere with the recipient nation’s internal affairs.
However, Western nations have accused China of repeatedly impairing the stability of the region, such as through the sales of advanced cruise missiles to Pakistan that began in the 1990s. Those accusations will certainly be renewed with China’s sale of this submarine fleet to Pakistan.

A few days ago, I reported on Pakistan’s close relationship with Saudi Arabia. As I have been saying for about ten years, Generational Dynamics predicts that the world is headed for a new “Clash of Civilizations” world war that will pit the West, India, Russia and Iran versus China, Pakistan and the Sunni Muslim countries. Dawn (Pakistan) and Marine Linkand Lowy Institute (Australia)

*As Russia-Saudi relations deteriorate, Egypt tries a middle road*
Relations between Russia and Saudi Arabia have never been particularly friendly, especially since 1938, when Stalin closed the Soviet embassy in Saudi Arabia. Diplomatic relations were not restored until after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but they have not been close.

In recent years, the Russians have infuriated the Saudis by providing billions of dollars of weapons to the regime of Syria’s president Bashar al-Assad.

The Saudis have infuriated the Russians by refusing to cut production as the price of oil collapsed, thereby harming Russia’s economy.

Russia has accused the Saudis of supplying weapons to the militias fighting against al-Assad in Syria. The Saudis have accused Russia of invading Crimea in order to kill the Crimean Muslim (Tatar) population.

Egypt is a close ally of Saudi Arabia, and the two countries are partners in the joint Arab military intervention in Yemen, against Iran-backed Houthis.

Egypt depends on Saudi Arabia for financial aid, but would also like a close relationship with Russia. Egypt has had a much longer relationship with Russia, with Russian czars supporting Orthodox Christians in Egypt as far back as the 16th century, and the Soviet Union was a key backer of Egypt in the decades after World War II.

Egypt is in a unique situation: Egypt would like to purchase weapons from Russia, funded by $2 billion of Saudi money. However, Russia has not been quick to sign such a deal, and the Saudi media is reminding Egyptians that 2,500 Egyptian soldiers died defending Crimea from the Russians back in the mid-19th century.

So although Egypt would like to have closer relations with Russia, it appears that they will be overshadowed by Egypt’s very close relations with Saudi Arabia. Al-Monitor andWashington Post

*Greece turns to Russia and China, amid reports of imminent default*
Unconfirmed reports suggest that Greece plans to miss its next scheduled bailout loan repayment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and will go into default next week on Wednesday (8-Apr). This would be the best time, since banks are scheduled to be closed for the following four days in celebration of Greek Orthodox Easter, which occurs next Sunday. According to this report, currency bills in Greece’s traditional drachma currency have already been printed, and Greece’s government would use those four days to convert from the euro currency back to the drachma currency.

Other reports suggest that Greece has been turning to Russia and China for bailout funds that would permit it to retain the euro currency. Russia might consider supplying these funds to Greece, in return for Greece’s full-throated opposition to EU sanctions against Russia. China might consider supplying the funds as part of a deal to purchase Greece’s port of Piraeus, which China’s Cosco shipping group would like to buy.

Alternatively, the Europeans may manage, once again, to find a way to “kick the can down the road,” and permit Greece to get through the current week’s crisis and continue until the next crisis, which is currently scheduled for July. Investment Watch and Economist

*KEYS: *Generational Dynamics, China, India, Pakistan, Gwadar Port, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, Egypt, Syria, Bashar al-Assad, Ukraine, Crimea, Yemen, Houthis, Egypt, Greece
World View: China to Sell Eight Advanced Submarines to Pakistan, Encircling India - Breitbart


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## ACE OF THE AIR

↑
@@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels 
May be they run on water

@The SC 

This was meant to be a joke in reply to the option of Solar Panels charging the batteries. For Solar energy to charge one has to be on the surface (on top) not at the bottom (submerged). 

OR 

These submarines are made on Alien tech that can somehow change Water into Electricity.

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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> ↑
> @@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels
> May be they run on water
> 
> @The SC
> 
> This was meant to be a joke in reply to the option of Solar Panels charging the batteries. For Solar energy to charge one has to be on the surface (on top) not at the bottom (submerged).
> 
> OR
> 
> These submarines are made on Alien tech that can somehow change Water into Electricity.


I knew it was in response to the other post about solar panels.
Now even your joke is right, but it is not water that is transformed to electricity, it is the AIP system working on different liquids depending on the technology being used, plus fuel cells plus batteries plus electric motors. The whole package is seemingly a bit heavier than the diesel electric propulsion. But these subs come at a minimum of around 4000t and a maximum of almost 7000t, so they are big and can accommodate the All electric propulsion (electric drive) easily.

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## Manticore

I read somewhere that it's difficult / more costly to integrate AIP in old 209s

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Penguin said:


> U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
> On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> From that article
> "On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."
> 
> So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.
> 
> There are no 212s in Greece.



For PN it might be a possibility that the 1st Greek U-214 is bought to get the training and TOT can be acquired from Turkey or South Korea in the case of further orders. This would also provide the 12 subs as per the 2015 modernization plan. Though this would increase the operational costs because of no standardized naval fleet.

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## aqdus

JD_In said:


> Its possible only if Pak is sharing its Nukes with Saudi..otherwise, just a dream!


OOHH YESSSS NOW I CAN FEEL SOMETHING IS BURNING HARD 



roxen said:


> Ohh really.... i dnt understand anything..


use translator and i promise its not difficult to translate through google


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@araz 


araz said:


> UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
> If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.
> 
> Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.


Yara
please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
araz[/QUOTE]

We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?

Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.

Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.

Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
"Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"

The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.

Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.
> 
> The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.
> 
> This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
> 
> No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.



Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.

There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.



The SC said:


> That is the smallest one can get, smaller than that was the first US nuclear submarine "The Nautilus" at 5000t with no weapons at all.



Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.

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## truthseeker2010

Zarvan said:


> There is massive confusion weather we are buyung S20 or else



PN will be going for S-20 because its a smaller version of yuan class, yuan would be more expensive. The only modification to PN S-20 variant will be addition of AIP.


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## Zarvan

truthseeker2010 said:


> PN will be going for S-20 because its a smaller version of yuan class, yuan would be more expensive. The only modification to PN S-20 variant will be addition of AIP.


According to news we are going for a new bigger version not smaller version


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## SipahSalar

How do these submarines compare to Augosta 90B? Are they more advanced? Less advanced? Equal? Mind you, France retired Augosta 90B ages ago, so even that submarine is a relic.

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## truthseeker2010

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.
> 
> Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.
> 
> So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.



any idea of the cost of 093 and 094?



Zarvan said:


> According to news we are going for a new bigger version not smaller version



if going by your news, than yuan already is at 3600 tons, larger than that, and we are talking closer to 4000t soryu class, they are the largest conventional subs on the high seas. IMO the costs, the geopolitics wont allow us to go for something like that. 8 of these giants will seal the game for PN.


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## ChineseTiger1986

truthseeker2010 said:


> any idea of the cost of 093 and 094?



A Type 094 costs about 1 billion dollar, while a Type 093 should cost a bit less.


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## Basel

Penguin said:


> What used subs does Germany of France have?



I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

truthseeker2010 said:


> any idea of the cost of 093 and 094?
> 
> 
> 
> if going by your news, than yuan already is at 3600 tons, larger than that, and we are talking closer to 4000t soryu class, they are the largest conventional subs on the high seas. IMO the costs, the geopolitics wont allow us to go for something like that. 8 of these giants will seal the game for PN.


Sir we are going for bigger version may be new ones known as S-26 and S-30


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @araz
> Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.



A nuclear submarine can hide anywhere in the ocean for very long periods of time, while an AIP (best of) can manage hiding (submerged) for a maximum of 18 days (world record held by Swedish submarines).
The thing is that the new nuclear submarines are all electric propulsion too. So the step for Pakistan is closer if it chooses to jump to nuclear submarines, it is a matter of replacing the batteries and fuel cells by a miniaturized nuclear reactor.
This can be easily set on the Qing class 032, and maybe some variants of 041 Qing class with some 6000t plus displacement.

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## truthseeker2010

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are going for bigger version may be new ones known as S-26 and S-30



lets keep our fingers crossed.......


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The SC said:


> A nuclear submarine can hide anywhere in the ocean for very long periods of time, while an AIP (best of) can manage hiding (submerged) for a maximum of 18 days (world record held by Swedish submarines).
> The thing is that the new nuclear submarines are all electric propulsion too. So the step for Pakistan is closer if it chooses to jump to nuclear submarines, it is a matter of replacing the batteries and fuel cells by a miniaturized nuclear reactor.
> This can be easily set on the Qing class 032, and maybe some variants of 041 Qing class with some 6000t plus displacement.


This could be possible. Now we wait !!


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## Manindra

The SC said:


> Think about the span of time for the acquisitions. If it is 10 years, than it sums up to less than a billion$ a year... for 5 years its 2 billion $ a year, both options are affordable for Pakistan, add the fact of soft loans and you can see that it is more than affordable, and we are talking about 10 billion $ deals not 7 or 8...
> 
> 
> *
> In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.
> 
> The first Qing class built for Chinese Navy was launched last year and will be going through the sea trial this month 6/2011 which will include the firing of CJ-10K LACms with a range of 1,500 KM.*
> 
> *The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine, These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.
> Pakistan Navy To Get 6 QING Class Submarines And 2 Typ 054A FFGs From China - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS*
> 
> **


Only Asian defence news got such technology


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## Zarvan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> A Type 094 costs about 1 billion dollar, while a Type 093 should cost a bit less.


How much Type 93G will cost ?


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## araz

We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?

Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.

Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.

Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
"Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"

The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.

Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?



Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.

There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.



Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.[/QUOTE]
Bhai.
3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this? 
Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous. 
Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
Araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?
> 
> Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.
> 
> Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.
> 
> Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
> "Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"
> 
> The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
> This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.
> 
> Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.
> 
> There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.
> 
> 
> 
> Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.
> Bhai.
> 3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this?
> Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous.
> Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
> Araz



Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.

Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.

Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.

Deficit Economy
What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China.

China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.

Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.

At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.


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## Manindra

Basel said:


> I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.


Germany never operate Type 209


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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bhai.
> 3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this?
> Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous.
> Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
> Araz



Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.

Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.

Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.

Deficit Economy
What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China. 

China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.

Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.

At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.[/QUOTE]
AOA
Procurement budget to my mind does not run this way. For instance do you think that the F16s which we secured from US are paid for. Or the excess of F16s from Jordan or the F22ps or even the bl.2 JFT. Where is the money for that coming from if not from the procurement budget? So the procuremeñt budget is not a static amount of money which is paid off in chunks but utilized to pay for stuff you have bought. 
The US situation and its debt is something which is tantamount to bullying of the highest order. The Chinese have bought US bonds worth trillions if not billions to safeguard their own reserves and also other strategic reasons. To compare US or even UK position to that of Pakistan is very naive. Pakistan just does not have the same clout as these countries and will never have . Therefore the Pakistani position would be one of austerity and working within its limits and if it bòrrows, to use money for projects which yield resources or money in turn. 
I fully understand the need but you need to understand my point of view in that this money which we are borrowing will have to be paid back with interest (howsoever small) and if your resources are limited then your troubles will compound subsequently. However if you are getting money from S.t elsewhere for services to be rendered it needs the nation to be clear in its mind that these are services which we agree to carry out and we as a nation are prepared to face the consequences whatever they may be and not whine like a bleeting goat about how war on terror has harmed us in so many ways that are worse than if we had decided to not participate. I am using WOT as an example and will not enter into a debate on the subject.
AOA this is probably my last post on the matter. It is clear to me that you and I are looking at the situation from diametrically opposite directions while not actually disagreeing to the need or the utility of the buy itself. I suspect it will be a reiteration of our respected points of view and I hate going round and round in circles. So unless something in your post requires an answer I will respectfully bow out of this debate.
araz


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.
> 
> Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.
> 
> Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
> I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.
> 
> Deficit Economy
> What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China.
> 
> China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.
> 
> Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.
> 
> At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.


AOA
Procurement budget to my mind does not run this way. For instance do you think that the F16s which we secured from US are paid for. Or the excess of F16s from Jordan or the F22ps or even the bl.2 JFT. Where is the money for that coming from if not from the procurement budget? So the procuremeñt budget is not a static amount of money which is paid off in chunks but utilized to pay for stuff you have bought.
The US situation and its debt is something which is tantamount to bullying of the highest order. The Chinese have bought US bonds worth trillions if not billions to safeguard their own reserves and also other strategic reasons. To compare US or even UK position to that of Pakistan is very naive. Pakistan just does not have the same clout as these countries and will never have . Therefore the Pakistani position would be one of austerity and working within its limits and if it bòrrows, to use money for projects which yield resources or money in turn.
I fully understand the need but you need to understand my point of view in that this money which we are borrowing will have to be paid back with interest (howsoever small) and if your resources are limited then your troubles will compound subsequently. However if you are getting money from S.t elsewhere for services to be rendered it needs the nation to be clear in its mind that these are services which we agree to carry out and we as a nation are prepared to face the consequences whatever they may be and not whine like a bleeting goat about how war on terror has harmed us in so many ways that are worse than if we had decided to not participate. I am using WOT as an example and will not enter into a debate on the subject.
AOA this is probably my last post on the matter. It is clear to me that you and I are looking at the situation from diametrically opposite directions while not actually disagreeing to the need or the utility of the buy itself. I suspect it will be a reiteration of our respected points of view and I hate going round and round in circles. So unless something in your post requires an answer I will respectfully bow out of this debate.
araz[/QUOTE]

As far as your point regarding knowledge and accountability of funds is concerned is absolutely correct, along with the knowledge that what agreements are being done on our account. 

We both agree to the present requirements and accusations.


----------



## araz

AsianUnion said:


> @araz : We do have lots of steel made in Pakistan. Generally, people are thinking Chinese Subs are equal or lesser to Agosta 90s, if not better. We do not know the AIP technology used in S-20s and whether they will be on S-20 / 039s. S-20s / 039s are small submarines. That is why, due to lack of knowledge, we are not fed complete information. Lets hope the Type 041, latest ones are the most modern PN gets, with AIP, and SLCM system at the bare minimum to have any big impact.


Hi.
If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
Regards
Araz.



A1Kaid said:


> Pakistan has the money, this isn't Zardari era. Government revenues have increased by billions of dollars since PM Nawaz Sharif has taken place. If there wasn't money in place these talks wouldn't be happening.


Give me some figures which I can believe.
Araz


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Hi.
> If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
> Regards
> Araz.
> 
> 
> Give me some figures which I can believe.
> Araz



http://www.steelmelters.com/

Batala Steel Industries

opened when searched on google. dont know if they are actually making it though.

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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> http://www.steelmelters.com/
> 
> Batala Steel Industries
> 
> opened when searched on google. dont know if they are actually making it though.


Exactly as I thought. These are small steel mills making girders and steel for construction industry not specialised steel plants manufacturing weapons grade steel.
To my knowledge there is only one unit in Karachk which got shut down during ZA Bhutto era and was subsequently revived by the army. There may be a second small plant under the armed forces. So my friend Sheikh Google has not taught the right lesson today.
Araz


----------



## araz

Saifullah Sani said:


> *Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China*
> 
> Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.
> 
> Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.
> 
> Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.
> 
> The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.
> 
> Pakistan operates five French submarines.
> 
> Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.
> 
> *The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.*
> 
> Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from* France*, *Germany*, and the *UK*, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.
> 
> Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.
> 
> The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.
> 
> Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.
> 
> German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.
> 
> However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.
> 
> *Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.
> 
> Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.*
> 
> *Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.*
> 
> *However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.*
> 
> It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.
> 
> Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.
> 
> However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.
> 
> *He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.*
> 
> It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.
> 
> *Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."*
> 
> *Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible*, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."
> 
> Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and *according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.*
> 
> If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.
> 
> Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the time frame of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.
> 
> Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.
> 
> Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.
> 
> A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.
> 
> *Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."*
> 
> He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."
> 
> Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.
> 
> "This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."
> 
> Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."
> 
> Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China


To me at least it is now very clear that the total acquisition will be of 8 subs from the Chinese. PN tried to buy /lease second hand subs which went no where. Therefore they have upgraded the earlier order of 6 to 8. This is clear form the post above and the confusion has been created by the way questions were framed and answered. The deal seems imminent and we should be hearing something good come out of it.


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## A1Kaid

araz said:


> Hi.
> If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
> Regards
> Araz.
> 
> 
> Give me some figures which I can believe.
> Araz




Okay, read my thread, first post.


PM Nawaz Sharif turns around Pakistani Economy

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Exactly as I thought. These are small steel mills making girders and steel for construction industry not specialised steel plants manufacturing weapons grade steel.
> To my knowledge there is only one unit in Karachk which got shut down during ZA Bhutto era and was subsequently revived by the army. There may be a second small plant under the armed forces. So my friend Sheikh Google has not taught the right lesson today.
> Araz


There was Steel cutting done for the freight tanker so there is some sort of steel manufactured...This is all that i can tell


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## Penguin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> For PN it might be a possibility that the 1st Greek U-214 is bought to get the training and *TOT can be acquired from Turkey or South Korea* in the case of further orders. This would also provide the *12 subs* as per the 2015 modernization plan. Though this would increase the operational costs because of no standardized naval fleet.


Dream on.



SipahSalar said:


> How do these submarines compare to Augosta 90B? Are they more advanced? Less advanced? Equal? Mind you, France retired Augosta 90B ages ago, so even that submarine is a relic.


Not if they were retired as an economy measure ....



Basel said:


> I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.


That can only happen if 209 users trade in their boats for newer 214s. However, 209 users have typically sought to build at home... So it seems an unlikely scenario.


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## LonE_WolF

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of *8 Yuan-class Type-041* conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org


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## Basel

Penguin said:


> Dream on.
> 
> 
> Not if they were retired as an economy measure ....
> 
> 
> That can only happen if 209 users trade in their boats for newer 214s. However, 209 users have typically sought to build at home... So it seems an unlikely scenario.



Then what you think? from where PN can purchase used advance subs which can fulfill its future need after upgrades?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Zarvan said:


> How much Type 93G will cost ?



No more than 1 billion, and even Russia Today is now praising the Type 093G.

It is labelled as the advanced SSN, and it is bigger than the LA class but similar to the Virginia class.

China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News


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## kaonalpha

So can we lease a type 93g?

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## ChineseTiger1986

kaonalpha said:


> So can we lease a type 93g?



For the moment, China needs to first fulfill the quantity for its own navy, so Pakistan can get the technological transfer.


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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China could provide two, then the rest could be built in Pakistan.


That should be a future possibility since:

"Type 093G sub, which has a missile attack range of 300km, means it can provide strong support in taking on enemy aircraft carriers along with long-range bombers and surface warships. The Type 093 sub can also use long-range missiles to attack targets on foreign soil, laying a solid foundation for the development of the next-gen Type 096 sub."

PLA's new Type 093G nuclear sub a potential 'carrier killer'｜WantChinaTimes.com

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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> That should be a future possibility since:
> 
> "Type 093G sub, which has a missile attack range of 300km, means it can provide strong support in taking on enemy aircraft carriers along with long-range bombers and surface warships. The Type 093 sub can also use long-range missiles to attack targets on foreign soil, laying a solid foundation for the development of the next-gen Type 096 sub."
> 
> PLA's new Type 093G nuclear sub a potential 'carrier killer'｜WantChinaTimes.com



Actually it is YJ-18 which is more likely 400-500km.

WantChinaTimes is an anti-China tabloid, so they can only quote the underestimation, not the overestimation.


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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Then what you think? from where PN can purchase used advance subs which can fulfill its future need after upgrades?


A country operating 209s that has started building 214s perhaps? Italy (S1000)?

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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Actually it is YJ-18 which is more likely 400-500km.
> 
> WantChinaTimes is an anti-China tabloid, so they can only quote the underestimation, not the overestimation.



If a sale is to be made according to international conventions, there will be only one estimation and that is 299.9999 km. Anyhow Pakistan can put in its own version of the missile for any suitable range.


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## kaonalpha

What about the swedish submarine there stealth is renound the during a war game it sank an air craft carrier anf two destroyers
Can we give it a go?


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## ChineseTiger1986

The SC said:


> If a sale is to be made according to international conventions, there will be only one estimation and that is 299.9999 km. Anyhow Pakistan can put in its own version of the missile for any suitable range.



China has sold the DF-21 to KSA, so this international regulation does not apply to China.


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## Mir Shahzain

Azeri440 said:


> I am gonna guess Saudis are paying


 

Yes agreed....as Yemen war started, we are initiating these steps....


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## ChineseTiger1986

kaonalpha said:


> What about the swedish submarine there stealth is renound the during a war game it sank an air craft carrier anf two destroyers
> Can we give it a go?



The AIP sub can stay under the water for quite of time, but it is too slow to trail the carrier battlegroup.

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## The SC

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has sold the DF-21 to KSA, so this international regulation does not apply to China.


That was an intricate deal indeed! Wasn't that before these international regulations took place?


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## Penguin

These companies manufacture subs:

Navantia
Fincantieri
DCNS
Kockums
BAE Systems
Mazagon Docks
Hyundai Heavy Industries
Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)
PO Sevmash
Huntington Ingalls Industries (HII)
General Dynamics Electric Boat Corp.
Admiralty Shipyards
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems AG
ASC Pty Ltd
Golcuk Naval Shipyard
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI)
Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation
Saab
Thales
Lockheed Martin Corp

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## Manticore

Penguin said:


> These companies manufacture subs:
> 
> Navantia
> Fincantieri
> DCNS
> Kockums
> BAE Systems
> Mazagon Docks
> Hyundai Heavy Industries
> Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)
> PO Sevmash
> Huntington Ingalls Industries (HII)
> General Dynamics Electric Boat Corp.
> Admiralty Shipyards
> ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems AG
> ASC Pty Ltd
> Golcuk Naval Shipyard
> Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI)
> Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation
> Saab
> Thales
> Lockheed Martin Corp


Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2
any input would be appreciated
ty


----------



## AsianLion

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.
> 
> The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.
> 
> This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
> 
> No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.




Are these VLS system of Type 93, for Cruise Missile or Ballistic Missiles?

That will be one awesome news, if Pakistan gets 2 of Nuclear subs with Ballistic missiles of type 92 / 93 or 94.



A1Kaid said:


> Pakistan has the money, this isn't Zardari era. Government revenues have increased by billions of dollars since PM Nawaz Sharif has taken place. If there wasn't money in place these talks wouldn't be happening.




The increase in revenues finally, definite credit goes to PML-N Govt.



The SC said:


> China can not sell the nuclear subs. It can lease them or better yet assist Pakistan in making its own.




Why can't PN buy nuclear subs?

And could only lease them from China.


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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> Why can't PN buy nuclear subs?
> 
> And could only lease them from China.



It has something to do with the IAEA, I guess, since it involves a nuclear reactor... Ha!ha!ha
The loophole is to lease them!!!


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## kaonalpha

NAVANTIA is the best if we want a foreign manufacturing hand involved in oir submarines project


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## The SC

The best used European submarines to be purchased by Pakistan Navy will be the Swedish Stirling engine AIP Gotland and the German/Italian Fuell cell AIP U-212A (2 offered for export by Fincantieri).

Gotland class patrol submarine





Looks a bit like the U209 but this one has AIP





Type 212




The Italian type 212A


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## The SC

_Old news!!!_
_6/29/2011_

The Qing Class Submarines will be among the largest conventional submarines in the world.
Displacement: 5,200 tons (submerged), 3,200 (surfaced), Length: 92 meters. (Author's estimates)

China’s latest submarine the Type 043 Qing Class, yet to be inducted into the Chinese navy and the pride of China’s technological and engineering elite, is being manufactured for Pakistan.

Six odd submarines, which are among the largest conventional vessels manufactured by humanity thus far and closer to the displacement of nuclear submarines, capable of firing nuclear-tipped cruise missiles and possibly a single ballistic missile are also part of a rapid program to transform the Pakistan Navy. The submarines are technological on par with anything the West can or has built with regard to conventional submarines. These behemoths and technological marvels are built on technologies that has taken over 20 years for China to develop including Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) that allows submarines to stay submerged for weeks and (possibly) pump jet propulsion, a propulsion system yet to be implemented even in Western conventional submarines.
*
SUBMARINES COMPARED
Class
Surface Displacement (tons, dived)
Length (meters)
Kilo (636)*
4,000
73.8
*Song*
2,250
75
*Yuan*
3,600
75
*Qing
5,200*
92**

*Author’s own estimate

Such submarines change the naval balance in the Indian Ocean overnight, responding with the “positive asymmetry” to threats that this writer has been calling for vis-à-vis the Indian career and massive surface fleet destroyers and frigates. To complement, large nearly destroyer size frigates are also slated for Pakistan, with two Type 054 class ships to be taken out of Chinese naval use and put under the green star and sickle moon. A new class of improved smaller frigates designated F-23P and possibly larger ships in the class of the 054A are also likely to follow.
With the Qing Class, the PN will be able to pop on any side of the Indian Ocean and blow any port, city or entire states into ashes and dust. Pakistan’s nuclear triad would be complete and all discussions of seizing Pakistan’s nukes would become a story of the past.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

50 new JF-17 Block IIs gifted to Pakistan will join numerous others being manufactured in Pakistan from multiple factories in-country.
*Specifications:*
Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST), In-Flight Refueling (IFR), Low Observable technology, New composite airframe, HOBS missiles, superior EW.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Dragon’s new claws will now be serving the Pakistan Air Force. As originally analyzed by this author, 58 (and not 36) J-10Bs / FC-20s are being purchased from China. 

Grande Strategy


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

*Pakistan Navy's S-30 Type 032 Qing-class SLCM-Armed SSK*

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## abbasalai




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## Zarvan

Major Shaitan Singh said:


>





Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Why are you calling it of Pakistan ???


Why are you calling it of Pakistan ?


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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> Why are you calling it of Pakistan ?


He thought China will sell this SLBM SSK to pakistan. If I am not wrong. They are under control arm item and not allow to be exported.

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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> He thought China will sell this SLBM SSK to pakistan. If I am not wrong. They are under control arm item and not allow to be exported.


Than I hope these are exactly those which we buy China gives a dam about these laws


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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> He thought China will sell this SLBM SSK to pakistan. If I am not wrong. They are under control arm item and not allow to be exported.


Are they also known as S-30 and if yes than yes out of 8 4 will be these


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## Green Angel

Good for Pakistan........If this happens.


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## The SC

Beast said:


> He thought China will sell this SLBM SSK to pakistan. If I am not wrong. They are under control arm item and not allow to be exported.


China can sell them to Pakistan without any cruise missiles... Pakistan will use its own CMs!

Some call them Type 041, Type 043, Type 032 either Qing or improved Yuan class...

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## qwerrty

that's a test sub. only one built and not for export. the one pakistan is getting is s-20

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## Zarvan

Major Shaitan Singh said:


>


I think so 4 will be these @Horus @Manticore


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## truthseeker2010

qwerrty said:


> that's a test sub. only one built and not for export. the one pakistan is getting is s-20
> 
> 
> View attachment 212644



The former CNS Asif sandila in the background, might be in talks for S-20, during his time.


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan is in talks of building two types of submarines 
s26 (a pakistani version of S20 submarine ) 
S30 ( a smaller version Qing class submarine )


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## Zarvan

qwerrty said:


> that's a test sub. only one built and not for export. the one pakistan is getting is s-20
> 
> 
> View attachment 212644
> View attachment 212646
> View attachment 212647


Not true according to many news papers Pakistan is going for two type of Submarines one is S-26 and the other is S-30. I think this ship was built for Pakistan and now under testing phase.


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## qwerrty

Zarvan said:


> Not true according to many news papers Pakistan is going for two type of Submarines one is S-26 and the other is S-30. I think this ship was built for Pakistan and now under testing phase.


well, whatever... that sub posted by op is a modified yuan for testing new slbm and other weapons. it supposed to replace the old modified golf class test sub


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## military lover

Chinese subs r not the quickest subs easily detected y 8 subs.all known what happend to ussr nosiy subs during cold war

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## Donatello

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The AIP sub can stay under the water for quite of time, but it is too slow to trail the carrier battlegroup.



Do you know what type of AIP China uses for their submarines? Is it the Stirling type, steam type or the fuel cell one?
And what is the endurance of the submarine on the AIP?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Donatello said:


> Do you know what type of AIP China uses for their submarines? Is it the Stirling type, steam type or the fuel cell one?
> And what is the endurance of the submarine on the AIP?



China's latest AIP subs such as the Type 039C use the fuel cell.

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## Penguin

Manticore said:


> Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2
> any input would be appreciated
> ty


RELATIVELY SPEAKING, probably yes. But,
a) this doesn't mean current models are loud and
b) great strides were made 

Note the shortening of the amount of time between models relative to their progression in noise reduction: this is a trade China is picking up on.

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## The SC

China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards.
Pakistan will be getting 6 of what is known as the type 041 Qing class submarines with around 4000 t displacement, the 2 additional ones to the original order of 2011 can be the same, smaller, modified or improved versions.
Pakistan is also looking to make the S-30 and S-36 at home.
This is according to an average from many contradicting sources.

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## Wolfhound

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's latest AIP subs such as the Type 039C use the fuel cell.


What is AIP?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Wolfhound said:


> What is AIP?



Here is the better explanation.

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Cheetah786

Tipu7 said:


> Judging from ''shopping list'' of Pakistan .............. looks like we will soon jump in Saudia Arabia and then we will have what we want.....................



The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told _IHS Jane's_ that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told _IHS Jane's_ it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison _IHS Jane's_ DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, *Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.
*


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## Zarvan

Cheetah786 said:


> The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.
> 
> In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.
> 
> The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.
> 
> A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told _IHS Jane's_ that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".
> 
> The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.
> 
> Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.
> 
> The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.
> 
> Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told _IHS Jane's_ it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison _IHS Jane's_ DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.
> 
> Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, *Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.*


The only problem is many papers of China and Pakistan are saying Pakistan is looking to get two type of submarines form China one is S-26 and one is S-30. I have no idea which one is S-26 but I think the latest Type 032 is S-30.


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## The SC

What about the 4/5 billion$.
Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.

Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
Vertically launched land attack missiles
JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。

This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.







This is the testbed* Type-032 Submarine *(The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)





This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan





And this is the type S-26





Type 032 : world largest conventional submarine for sub testing platform | Errymath

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## Zarvan

The SC said:


> What about the 4/5 billion$.
> Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
> This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
> A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
> Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.
> 
> Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
> Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
> Vertically launched land attack missiles
> JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
> The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
> Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。
> 
> This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the testbed* Type-032 Submarine *(The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the type S-26


What is Chinese name of S-26 and I think yes Type-032 is of one type we are going for


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## The SC

*China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials*
09 April 2014





A new variant of the Type 039C/Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarine with a raked sail. Source: Via Top 81 web page
*Key Points*

Images of a new variant of China's Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarine suggest it is being prepared for sea trials
Images also suggest Chinese shipbuilders are starting to plan a large surface combatant that may be a next-generation destroyer or cruiser
New Chinese-sourced imagery shows that the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) continues to modify its Type 041 Yuan class conventional submarine and that it is making progress towards a new large destroyer or cruiser.

On 10 and 11 December 2013 the first images of a new variant of the Type 041 - also sometimes referred to as the Type 039A, Type 039C or Type 039X - appeared on Chinese military web forums. It had just been launched by the Wuhan Shipyard of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC), the major manufacturer of China's non-nuclear powered submarines. Only seen partially in these first images, a new image seen on 6 April shows the new Type 041 variant has a raked sail that is similar to recent German SSK designs.

This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs. This Type 041 may also be slightly longer than previous variants.

Uncorroborated Chinese sources have suggested that the new variant displaces about 3,500 tons compared to about 3,000 tons for earlier Type 041s. This could indicate that the new variant has more weapons - _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_ states that the existing variants are armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried.

The basic export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tons.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report on China's military to Congress that production could reach 20 ships.
*...*
*China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360*


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## Zarvan

The SC said:


> What about the 4/5 billion$.
> Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
> This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
> A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
> Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.
> 
> Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
> Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
> Vertically launched land attack missiles
> JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
> The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
> Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。
> 
> This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the testbed* Type-032 Submarine *(The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the type S-26
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 032 : world largest conventional submarine for sub testing platform | Errymath


What are those large white tubes ?


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## The SC

Zarvan said:


> What is Chinese name of S-26 and I think yes Type-032 is of one type we are going for


Type S-26 (T), they look like a Chinese version of the Kilo class with some modifications, most probably more advanced but not by a big margin.



Zarvan said:


> What are those large white tubes ?


SLBM or SLCM, both are/were being tested in VLS configuration.

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## The SC

*Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar*

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041  conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.

Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.

INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
------------------------------------------

Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).

I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
"Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.

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## Rocky rock

The SC said:


> *Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar*
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041  conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .
> 
> Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.
> 
> Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.
> 
> INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.
> 
> Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).
> 
> I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
> This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
> "Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.




Let me just clear that these 8 Sub's are not a different deal we talked about earlier 6 one's in 2011 first they had plan for 6 sub's in 2011 now by time has passed they increase it to 8 sub's now. So in total we'll get 8 new sub's. 

And few old sub's from European countries in future too. And we'll co-develop S-26 & S-30 with china here in Pak. Which would be different & new project. So 8 new Type 041 qing class + 3/4 used ones from EU'c and by adding 3 Agosta's 90B which we already have total would be around 14 to 15 sub's.


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## chou.wong

My Pakistan friends let me introduce some fighter plane from china ! It the most advanced plane in china better than FC-31. we call it jian-20.bellow is the address

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## Muhammad Omar

chou.wong said:


> My Pakistan friends let me introduce some fighter plane from china ! It the most advanced plane in china better than FC-31. we call it jian-20.bellow is the address



Brother we all know that it's J-20


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## AsianLion

What Pakistan actually wants 1-2 of these subs these types :

China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.



Any chance of Pakistan coming into this joint venture?:

_“China is also pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,”_ the RT reporter today said.


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## Dalit

The SC said:


> *Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar*
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041  conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .
> 
> Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.
> 
> Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.
> 
> INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.
> 
> Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).
> 
> I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
> This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
> "Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.



Thank God! They are aware...


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## chou.wong

sorry,i have just known we are best friends ,but i don't know how much do you know about us ,so i just wanna show something in our defence forum!

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## Muhammad Omar

chou.wong said:


> sorry,i have just known we are best friends ,but i don't know how much do you know about us ,so i just wanna show something in our defence forum!



No Prob you can share in Chinese Defence Forum


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards..


Sources in support of this claim?


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## ChineseTiger1986

AsianUnion said:


> What Pakistan actually wants 1-2 of these subs these types :
> 
> China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance of Pakistan coming into this joint venture?:
> 
> _“China is also pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,”_ the RT reporter today said.



Now China has six Type 094 SSBNs.

Maybe China cannot direct sell a SSBN to Pakistan, but China could definitely provide the assistance when Pakistan needs to build one.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now China has six Type 094 SSBNs.
> 
> Maybe China cannot direct sell a SSBN to Pakistan, but China could definitely provide the assistance when Pakistan needs to build one.


They can lease it though.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> They can lease it though.



For now, we don't have many SSBNs for ourselves, wait until we got 12+ SSBNs.

Or maybe China can offer the refurbished Type 092, can Pakistan take it?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> For now, we don't have many SSBNs for ourselves, wait until we got 12+ SSBNs.
> 
> Or maybe China can offer the refurbished Type 092, can Pakistan take it?


It is not what I say on Pakistan taking it or not taking it. Pakistan Navy would require atleast 2 SSBN's if it has to effectively conclude that it has second strike capability. 

On the other hand China requires to effectively project power in the Indian Ocean, also secure the transit lines in Arabian sea and protect Gawadar which would be supplying all the material required to the Western provinces of China. China would be seen as an aggressor if her ships are patrolling so the most viable option is to ask Pakistan to do this atleast in the Arabian Sea. 

So IMO China would go to any extent in this regards.


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## ChineseTiger1986

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It is not what I say on Pakistan taking it or not taking it. Pakistan Navy would require atleast 2 SSBN's if it has to effectively conclude that it has second strike capability.
> 
> On the other hand China requires to effectively project power in the Indian Ocean, also secure the transit lines in Arabian sea and protect Gawadar which would be supplying all the material required to the Western provinces of China. China would be seen as an aggressor if her ships are patrolling so the most viable option is to ask Pakistan to do this atleast in the Arabian Sea.
> 
> So IMO China would go to any extent in this regards.



At the moment, we need at least the six SSBNs like the Type 094 to form a regular strategic patrol cycle. Two during the maintenance, two during the training, while two during the patrolling.

BTW, for now, we can only lease or offer the Type 092.

Pakistan could first use the Type 092 to train those professional personnel about how to operate a SSBN.

The training stage is also a long cycle, just look our training to operate the fixed-wing aircraft carrier, it will also take us 3-4 years to fully accomplish it.


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> Sources in support of this claim?



Old news!

According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials initially believed the submarine was diesel-powered. In March 2007 Jane's Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute. Yuan is using an AIP engine of 100 kw in power, and is probably equipped with 2 such AIP engine. The Gotland submarines use 2 V4-275R stirling AIP units (each rated 75 kw). The larger Yuan obviously needs more powerful AIP units.
...
Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

Yuan Type 039A Type 041


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> Old news!
> 
> According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials initially believed the submarine was diesel-powered. In March 2007 Jane's Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute. Yuan is using an AIP engine of 100 kw in power, and is probably equipped with 2 such AIP engine. The Gotland submarines use 2 V4-275R stirling AIP units (each rated 75 kw). The larger Yuan obviously needs more powerful AIP units.
> ...
> Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.
> 
> The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.
> 
> Yuan Type 039A Type 041


"China's submarine technologies are in* par with* *the best* Western technologies, it even *surpasses* them in some regards.."

an aip system (no further details)
as quiet as > other modern < diesel/electric powered submarines (like? > 209/1500 is modern but not the best)
etc etc

Not terribly impressed

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## The SC

Penguin said:


> "China's submarine technologies are in* par with* *the best* Western technologies, it even *surpasses* them in some regards.."
> 
> an aip system (no further details)
> as quiet as > other modern < diesel/electric powered submarines (like? > 209/1500 is modern but not the best)
> etc etc
> 
> Not terribly impressed


It was already somehow impressive to US officials in 2004, imagine today! can you?
Type-209 does not have AIP, you can talk about type-214 if you want some analogy.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> At the moment, we need at least the six SSBNs like the Type 094 to form a regular strategic patrol cycle. Two during the maintenance, two during the training, while two during the patrolling.
> 
> BTW, for now, we can only lease or offer the Type 092.
> 
> Pakistan could first use the Type 092 to train those professional personnel about how to operate a SSBN.
> 
> The training stage is also a long cycle, just look our training to operate the fixed-wing aircraft carrier, it will also take us 3-4 years to fully accomplish it.



According to the the requirements of PN a better option is Type-093 Shang Class then the Type 092. Type 093 two are produced and 2 more under production. This could also be available on lease.


----------



## monitor

*NEW CHINESE SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN*
WHY DO THEY MATTER?

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted April 7, 2015
9 





S-20

IHS Janes

The S-20 SSK was first offered at the IDEX 2013 arms show in the UAE; it is a quiet 2,600 SSK capable of firing cruise missiles and torpedoes, in addition to inserting special forces and mines. Pakistan's Chinese subs are likely to be based off the S-20 design.

On March 31st, Pakistan announced plans to buy eight new Chinese-made submarines. The submarines are likely to be based of the Type 39B Yuan SSK, of which the export version is designated the S-20. The S-20 displaces about 2,300 tons, but air independent propulsion (AIP) is not standard to the submarine. AIP a closed off propulsion system, like a gas compression Stirling engine or fuel cells, that doesn't require a separate oxygen supply It is a must have for modern SSKs, allowing them to stay underwater for up to four weeks without using noisy snorkels to recharge batteries (often SSK batteries have enough charge to last several days at most). Pakistan's S-20s are likely to have AIP since its Agosta 90B submarines already have the technology; the PLAN's 12 Yuan SSKs all have sophisticated AIP systems.




Type 39C SSK

www.top81.cn

The Type 039C Yuan SSK is the latest Chinese conventional submarine, launched in 2014. It features a redesigned conning tower, as well as better sonar. The Yuan class's AIP system makes it China's most capable conventional submarines.

The significance of the plan is that it Pakistan badly needs to modernize and expand its submarine fleet, especially given rival India's acquisition of domestic, French and Russian conventional and nuclear submarines. Overall, Pakistan's 2015 naval plan calls for twelve submarines. The Pakistani Navy currently operates five French Agosta submarines, with two of its Agosta 70s 40 years old and in need of replacement soon.




Babur Cruise Missile

Pakistan Military Review

The Babur LACM has a range of 750-1000km, and is equipped for both conventional and nuclear attack. It is likely that it will form the basis of a submarine launched LACM, potentially giving Pakistan an underwater second strike nuclear capability.

The other important features of the S-20 purchase stems from its weaponry and its effect on regional balances of power. The S-20 has a standard load of six torpedo tubes, able to fire up to 18 torpedoes and missile canisters, which include the 533mm Yu-6 heavy torpedo, naval mines and 300km range YJ-82 anti-ship missile. Such capabilities could prove quite important in any conventional war scenario in the region. In addition, Pakistan is working to modify its nuclear capable Babur land attack cruise missile for launch from its current Agosta 90B submarines, so the new S-20s would almost certainly also be designed to carry nuclear armed Babur missiles. In addition to being able to launch nuclear strikes from previously inaccessible areas like the Bay of Bengal, an underwater nuclear deterrent would finally give Islamabad a credible second strike capability.

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## Zarvan

monitor said:


> *NEW CHINESE SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN*
> WHY DO THEY MATTER?
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted April 7, 2015
> 9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S-20
> 
> IHS Janes
> 
> The S-20 SSK was first offered at the IDEX 2013 arms show in the UAE; it is a quiet 2,600 SSK capable of firing cruise missiles and torpedoes, in addition to inserting special forces and mines. Pakistan's Chinese subs are likely to be based off the S-20 design.
> 
> On March 31st, Pakistan announced plans to buy eight new Chinese-made submarines. The submarines are likely to be based of the Type 39B Yuan SSK, of which the export version is designated the S-20. The S-20 displaces about 2,300 tons, but air independent propulsion (AIP) is not standard to the submarine. AIP a closed off propulsion system, like a gas compression Stirling engine or fuel cells, that doesn't require a separate oxygen supply It is a must have for modern SSKs, allowing them to stay underwater for up to four weeks without using noisy snorkels to recharge batteries (often SSK batteries have enough charge to last several days at most). Pakistan's S-20s are likely to have AIP since its Agosta 90B submarines already have the technology; the PLAN's 12 Yuan SSKs all have sophisticated AIP systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 39C SSK
> 
> www.top81.cn
> 
> The Type 039C Yuan SSK is the latest Chinese conventional submarine, launched in 2014. It features a redesigned conning tower, as well as better sonar. The Yuan class's AIP system makes it China's most capable conventional submarines.
> 
> The significance of the plan is that it Pakistan badly needs to modernize and expand its submarine fleet, especially given rival India's acquisition of domestic, French and Russian conventional and nuclear submarines. Overall, Pakistan's 2015 naval plan calls for twelve submarines. The Pakistani Navy currently operates five French Agosta submarines, with two of its Agosta 70s 40 years old and in need of replacement soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Babur Cruise Missile
> 
> Pakistan Military Review
> 
> The Babur LACM has a range of 750-1000km, and is equipped for both conventional and nuclear attack. It is likely that it will form the basis of a submarine launched LACM, potentially giving Pakistan an underwater second strike nuclear capability.
> 
> The other important features of the S-20 purchase stems from its weaponry and its effect on regional balances of power. The S-20 has a standard load of six torpedo tubes, able to fire up to 18 torpedoes and missile canisters, which include the 533mm Yu-6 heavy torpedo, naval mines and 300km range YJ-82 anti-ship missile. Such capabilities could prove quite important in any conventional war scenario in the region. In addition, Pakistan is working to modify its nuclear capable Babur land attack cruise missile for launch from its current Agosta 90B submarines, so the new S-20s would almost certainly also be designed to carry nuclear armed Babur missiles. In addition to being able to launch nuclear strikes from previously inaccessible areas like the Bay of Bengal, an underwater nuclear deterrent would finally give Islamabad a credible second strike capability.


I think Pakistan is going for two types one is Type 032


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> It was already somehow impressive to US officials in 2004, imagine today! can you?
> *Type-209 does not have AIP*, you can talk about type-214 if you want some analogy.


The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship



> Sea Platforms
> *HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy*
> *Theodore L Valmas, Athens* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 20 October 2014
> 
> Greece's Type 209/1200 submarine HS _Okeanos_ (S-118) was redelivered back to the Hellenic Navy (HN) from Hellenic Shipyards at Skaramangason on 20 October, having completed its Neptune II mid-life upgrade programme.
> Sea trials of the boat are expected to begin immediately and it should be fully operational by the end of the year.
> The third of the four-strong Poseidon class, HS _Okeanos_ was launched by HDW in Kiel in November 1978 and arrived in Greece in January 1980.
> In 2002 the Neptune II modernisation programme was signed with HDW's successor, TKMS, for three Type 209/1200 submarines. The programme included insertion of a 6.5m-long air-independent propulsion section, along with the fitting of a new sonar array, combat management system, optronic periscopes and Sub-Harpoon launch capability, to bring the Poseidon-class boats up to standard of the Type 214 submarine, of which the HN has ordered four.
> However, following a prolonged contractual dispute with TKMS, in 2009 the HN terminated the Neptune II programme, leaving HS _Okeanos_ as the only upgraded boat, in order to fund the construction of two more Type 214 submarines.
> Under Greece's current budget situation, though, the construction prospects of the two Type 214 boats remain somewhat tenuous.


HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy - IHS Jane's 360
Two Hellenic Navy submarines set for service - IHS Jane's 360

Turkey considered upgrading its 209s with AIP ut eventually chose to get new boats with AIP
(Atılay class mid-life refit with AIP propulsion cancelled). South Korea also looked into fiting AIP to 209s. Again funding prevented actual upgrading. However, there is no technical reason why 209 cannot have AIP and in fact 1 boat does.

TURKISH NAVY SHIPBUCKET: Type 209/1400 AIP Üzerine Çalışmalar


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## black-hawk_101

I hope PN would start building two of them at a time at KS&EWs this year


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## Donatello

Penguin said:


> The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship
> 
> 
> HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy - IHS Jane's 360
> Two Hellenic Navy submarines set for service - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Turkey considered upgrading its 209s with AIP ut eventually chose to get new boats with AIP
> (Atılay class mid-life refit with AIP propulsion cancelled). South Korea also looked into fiting AIP to 209s. Again funding prevented actual upgrading. However, there is no technical reason why 209 cannot have AIP and in fact 1 boat does.
> 
> TURKISH NAVY SHIPBUCKET: Type 209/1400 AIP Üzerine Çalışmalar



What was the cost of the Greek upgrade?


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## Penguin

The Hellenic Navy was the first navy outside of Germany to order a fuel cell driven submarine. In February 2000 Greece ordered three new 214-class submarines from German owned Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH [HDW] under the ARCHIMEDES program and an overhaul for three older 209-class submarines from HDW under the NEPTUNE II program.

In 2002, Hellenic shipyards received the Neptune II contract for the “mid life” modernization and repair of 3 Poseidon class boats, which included cutting the hull and installing an 6.5m long Air-Independent Propulsion section, as well as hydrogen storage tanks for the AIP. Flank array sonar, electronics upgrades, an electro-optic mast with satellite communication capability, and Harpoon missile firing capability reportedly round out the upgrade’s major features. In the end, however, only HS Okeanos [S118] will be upgraded.

Both deals went sour an the finances are pretty convoluted. Lots of palm grease too
ВИФ2 NE : Ветка : И последние новости из буржуазной прессы
http://5dias.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Submarine_Hot_Doc.pdf


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship


I did not want to mention that, the Portuguese 209 were the first to do that in 2005 , but they do not look like 209s anymore.

Fuel Cell Propulsion Fitted into New Portuguese Subs


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> I did not want to mention that, the Portuguese 209 were the first to do that in 2005 , but they do not look like 209s anymore.
> 
> Fuel Cell Propulsion Fitted into New Portuguese Subs


That is because they aren't modified 209s but rather new built 214s. Okeanos was built as a 209 and after year of service converted to AIP. Prior to the new boats, Portugal operated French Daphne class boats, so there were no 209s available to convert.



> Originally, HDW proposed the Type 209 submarine (U-209) during the competition, but decided to later enter a new proposal based on the Type 214. It is for this reason that the Tridente class is commonly designated as the U 209PN.


Tridente-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a 209 only in name (214 being a development mixing elements of 209 and 212).






From U-209PN / U-214 / U-212 - O U209-PN, o U214 e o contrato de fornecimento
(Article about difference between U209, U212, U214 and U209PN: translate this from portugese to language of choice )


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> That is because they aren't modified 209s but rather new built 214s. Okeanos was built as a 209 and after year of service converted to AIP. Prior to the new boats, Portugal operated French Daphne class boats, so there were no 209s available to convert.
> 
> 
> Tridente-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> It is a 209 only in name (214 being a development mixing elements of 209 and 212).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From U-209PN / U-214 / U-212 - O U209-PN, o U214 e o contrato de fornecimento
> (Article about difference between U209, U212, U214 and U209PN: translate this from portugese to language of choice )


Here where the confusion comes from:

"It should be noted that the Government of Portugal caused increases in the price by specifying upgrades to the base 209 design, with features from the newer Class 214 submarines."

NRP Tridente Type 209PN

Back on topic:
8 advanced Submarines for Pakistan. I think they will be in par with the U-214, yet better for Pakistan because they can fire missiles too.


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> Here where the confusion comes from:
> 
> "It should be noted that the Government of Portugal caused increases in the price by specifying upgrades to the base 209 design, with features from the newer Class 214 submarines."
> 
> NRP Tridente Type 209PN


Actually, you should read the Portugese article.....

Google Translate=


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## farhan_9909

@*Penguin*

Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?

Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
or
Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?

Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> Actually, you should read the Portugese article.....
> 
> Google Translate=


Who me or you? that is from GlobaSecurity .org


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> Who me or you? that is from GlobaSecurity .org


I read it. Note the first line "The submarines are Type 209PN ocean-going submarines of high autonomy, are very identical to U214, taking operational requirements tailored to the needs of the Portuguese State." Now, did you read the article I posted a link to or not?



farhan_9909 said:


> @*Penguin*
> 
> Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?
> 
> Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
> or
> Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?
> 
> Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?


Type 32 is a testbed for new technologies, not a regular production sub. Yuan would be a more Obvious choice.


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## ChineseTiger1986

farhan_9909 said:


> @*Penguin*
> 
> Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?
> 
> Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
> or
> Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?
> 
> Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?



The Type 032 is a test platform for both JL-2A and JL-3, while the Type 039A/B can also launch the cruise missile for sure.

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## The SC

Penguin said:


> I read it. Note the first line "The submarines are Type 209PN ocean-going submarines of high autonomy, are very identical to U214, taking operational requirements tailored to the needs of the Portuguese State." Now, did you read the article I posted a link to or not?
> 
> 
> Type 32 is a testbed for new technologies, not a regular production sub. Yuan would be a more Obvious choice.



I did read it long time ago, what is the point?, since we both know it is a variation of 209. but close to 214. With all the kick backs and controversy that has followed, I suspect the Portuguese government did not want to mention 214 because of the price at that time, but they were getting their own version of it under the name of 209PN.


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## Penguin

The SC said:


> I did read it long time ago, what is the point?, since we both know it is a variation of 209. but close to 214. With all the kick backs and controversy that has followed, I suspect the Portuguese government did not want to mention 214 because of the price at that time, but they were getting their own version of it under the name of 209PN.


No it is not a variation/version, it is a 214. HDW changed its entry halfway through the bidding proces.

There really IS a reason why they AREN'T listed here:
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While they ARE listed here:
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> No it is not a variation/version, it is a 214. HDW changed its entry halfway through the bidding proces.
> 
> There really IS a reason why they AREN'T listed here:
> Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> While they ARE listed here:
> Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I heard before that they were upgraded versions of the 209, but when I saw the pics , I was convinced it was something like the 214...
Anyhow, if we look at it objectively, there was the 209 as the German export submarine, and then it was followed by the 214...


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## Penguin

The point is, of course, that the Portugese never had any 209s and didn't get 209/1400/1500 with AIP either.


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## The SC

Penguin said:


> The point is, of course, that the Portugese never had any 209s and didn't get 209/1400/1500 with AIP either.


No, they have ordered the "upgraded version of the 209" which is the 214, but they still wanted to name it 209PN for some reason or another!
What do you think of the U-214 vs the Qing class 041 submarines?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@The SC & @Penguin

If the Portuguese Navy PN ordered the 209 but got the 214 then is it possible to say that this was a sub designed to test the 214.

What is evident from the picture there is a hump in the front section but it is not as prominent as the original 209's.

IF Pakistan does decide to purchase the Turkish 209's (*Atılay-class ) *then what will be the cost to get it updated with AIP. and how much time would it take?


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## Penguin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @The SC & @Penguin
> 
> If the Portuguese Navy PN ordered the 209 but got the 214 then is it possible to say that this was a sub designed to test the 214.
> 
> What is evident from the picture there is a hump in the front section but it is not as prominent as the original 209's.
> 
> IF Pakistan does decide to purchase the Turkish 209's (*Atılay-class ) *then what will be the cost to get it updated with AIP. and how much time would it take?


It still is a 214 rather than a modified 209 but I get your drift. IN reference to the last question, both in the Greek and Portugese cases, there were a lot of problems with the initial 214. And a lot of palm grease. And a lot of negotiation and haggling over who owes what to whom. So it is very difficult to actually work out a cost figure. However, one can state an upper limit: the shouldn't be anywhere near the cost of a 214.

In February 2000 the Skaramangas Shipyards signed an agreement with Ferrostaal Essen and HDW Kiel for the building of three Type 214 submarines, with an option for the construction of one more. The total cost of the contract for the submarines comes to 430 billion drachmas, with offset benefits for Greek industries amounting to some 76 billion drachmas, or 19 percent of the contract. That is about 1,26 billion Euro for 3 or a bit of 406 million Euro per boat at todays rates.

I would not think it acceptable if adding AIP to an U209 comes to more than half that amount, including modernization beyond AIP



> The upgrade for the Shishumar class of submarines is likely to be cleared at the earliest. It will be a major capability enhancement over the current weapon complement that consists of torpedoes and mines. The upgrade for two of the four submarines of the class with the Navy is likely to cost under Rs 1,000 crore, which will include the purchase of nearly 100 Harpoon missiles from the US


Navy set to upgrade, boost existing fleet : TOP NEWS


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## The SC

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @The SC & @Penguin
> 
> If the Portuguese Navy PN ordered the 209 but got the 214 then is it possible to say that this was a sub designed to test the 214.
> 
> What is evident from the picture there is a hump in the front section but it is not as prominent as the original 209's.
> 
> IF Pakistan does decide to purchase the Turkish 209's (*Atılay-class ) *then what will be the cost to get it updated with AIP. and how much time would it take?


It is also about which AIP technology to go, If Pakistan wants to upgrade the Turkish 209, the best choice would be the Chinese Stirling engine, since acquiring the French MESMA again might be complicated if not refused.
Pakistan has the know-how for installing the AIP system so it should not cost it much...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Penguin said:


> It still is a 214 rather than a modified 209 but I get your drift. IN reference to the last question, both in the Greek and Portugese cases, there were a lot of problems with the initial 214. And a lot of palm grease. And a lot of negotiation and haggling over who owes what to whom. So it is very difficult to actually work out a cost figure. However, one can state an upper limit: the shouldn't be anywhere near the cost of a 214.
> 
> In February 2000 the Skaramangas Shipyards signed an agreement with Ferrostaal Essen and HDW Kiel for the building of three Type 214 submarines, with an option for the construction of one more. The total cost of the contract for the submarines comes to 430 billion drachmas, with offset benefits for Greek industries amounting to some 76 billion drachmas, or 19 percent of the contract. That is about 1,26 billion Euro for 3 or a bit of 406 million Euro per boat at todays rates.
> 
> I would not think it acceptable if adding AIP to an U209 comes to more than half that amount, including modernization beyond AIP
> 
> 
> Navy set to upgrade, boost existing fleet : TOP NEWS


Considering the $8-10 Bln for the Subs it might be highly likely that Pakistan might be after the Type U-214. If it costs 500mil per boat then 4 are still possible with $2bil. With the remaining $8bil Pakistan might be getting more than the Type -041.


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## umer cheema

shukar karr hasad na kr


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## black-hawk_101

I not so SURE but I THINK so!
That they PN plans of producing their own Nuclear submarine might be based on S-20 design but might weigh around 7000 Tons when submerged. And it might have some Ballistic Missile capability as well.

I think if GoP will give PN the money which it needs then the submerged fleet will look like in 15 year:
5-7 SSBNs
20-25 SSKs
12+ Coastal SSKs

So how much does S-20 Displaced?


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## Super Falcon

What Western sub Pakistan interested in France is only one who can sell along with Germany in future might be ru Asia too


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## IceCold

So is the deal signed for 8 submarines because i cant seem to find any news related to it on TV channels.


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## A2Z

Does any one knows what will be the time span of the deliveries once the deal is struck?
And exactly what are the secondhand options we are looking at?


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## Zarvan

IceCold said:


> So is the deal signed for 8 submarines because i cant seem to find any news related to it on TV channels.


There is no news of any Defence Deal signed I think either they are not signed or we are hiding few things


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## IceCold

Zarvan said:


> There is no news of any Defence Deal signed I think either they are not signed or we are hiding few things



Either way i dont understand the logic behind it because just before the Chinese president landed in Pakistan, every news channel was reporting defense deals of 8 submarines. All the defense analyst were also highlighting the importance of this deal and than nothing. The channels have stopped as well.

So is it safe to assume we havent signed deal yet?


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## Super Falcon

Wh ha the type of subs pneumonia want to buy Pl answer


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## Zarvan

IceCold said:


> Either way i dont understand the logic behind it because just before the Chinese president landed in Pakistan, every news channel was reporting defense deals of 8 submarines. All the defense analyst were also highlighting the importance of this deal and than nothing. The channels have stopped as well.
> 
> So is it safe to assume we havent signed deal yet?


I don't think so we are hiding some deals for some reason lately Pakistan has started to hide most defence procurement specially from China no news came of SH-1 and A-100 and we have them too


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## wiseone2

black-hawk_101 said:


> I not so SURE but I THINK so!
> That they PN plans of producing their own Nuclear submarine might be based on S-20 design but might weigh around 7000 Tons when submerged. And it might have some Ballistic Missile capability as well.
> 
> I think if GoP will give PN the money which it needs then the submerged fleet will look like in 15 year:
> 5-7 SSBNs
> 20-25 SSKs
> 12+ Coastal SSKs
> 
> So how much does S-20 Displaced?



Who are you going to fight with that many subs ? US Navy ??


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## black-hawk_101

wiseone2 said:


> Who are you going to fight with that many subs ? US Navy ??


No Defend our area of SEAs.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Georgeclark said:


> Out of those 16, 10 are operational and India is making scorpions too, project 75i and Arihant, new class SSbN's and SSN's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Pakistan have now ?? 8 submarines out of which 3 are midget and all under 2100 tons and 10 frigates to the most. Sometimes its good to appreciate what your neighbor has done better than you. Indian navy builds most its ships in its own docks.



Pakistani submarines remain far more serviceable than Indian Sub-surface element. Pakistan's submarine deployment and patrol scheme is a big headache for Indian in Littoral waters. By dismissing the Pakistani sub-surface development, you are only showing your inability to grasp Naval warfare concepts.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistani submarines remain far more serviceable than Indian Sub-surface element. Pakistan's submarine deployment and patrol scheme is a big headache for Indian in Littoral waters. By dismissing the Pakistani sub-surface development, you are only showing your inability to grasp Naval warfare concepts.


Would you be able to confirm that the deal for the subs with the chinese has been signed or not. i am getting conflicting reports.
A


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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> Would you be able to confirm that the deal for the subs with the chinese has been signed or not. i am getting conflicting reports.
> A



Chinese contract was signed some time ago for the 08 SSKs.

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## aziqbal

8 x SSK in PN will be a tremendous under water force 

A submarine is the ace up the sleeve of every nation the silent killer

A single SSK used correctly could tie down a entire carrier strike group

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## Bilal Khan 777

aziqbal said:


> 8 x SSK in PN will be a tremendous under water force
> 
> A submarine is the ace up the sleeve of every nation the silent killer
> 
> A single SSK used correctly could tie down a entire carrier strike group



This is a correct and well thought out investment for PN. 04 Subs will be manufactured in China, while 04 will be manufactured at Karachi Shipyard, work on which has already started.

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## monitor

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is a correct and well thought out investment for PN. 04 Subs will be manufactured in China, while 04 will be manufactured at Karachi Shipyard, work on which has already started.


what you work for submarine start simultaneously in Pakistan and China one in China another one in Pakistan or after completing one others work will begins?


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Chinese contract was signed some time ago for the 08 SSKs.


what's the substance news report quoting used western subs?
any planning for nuke subs?


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## muhammadali233

ziaulislam said:


> what's the substance news report quoting used western subs?
> any planning for nuke subs?


Pak is not procuring west subs any more.
Nuke subs are useless when you have aip subs,they make alot of noise and are easily picked up sonars when they move,8 aip subs with complementing agosta subs pak fleet is will get quite strong.

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## volatile

There was some quoted 6 months back on TV that small Nuke reactor is already designed and tested .This is for Nuke Sub project .I agree all these 8 subs will be enough with retrofitting of 3rd strike capabilities through Torpedo tubes ,Pak is going for a cheaper yet deadly combination.Nuke Sub if we build it will be more of a tech demonstrator for future strategic goals .Unlike Indians we will build Indigenous one with our own resources .

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## MKC

muhammadali233 said:


> Pak is not procuring west subs any more.
> Nuke subs are useless when you have aip subs,they make alot of noise and are easily picked up sonars when they move,8 aip subs with complementing agosta subs pak fleet is will get quite strong.


Well if you are correct then US wouldn't have decommissioned whole conventional fleet & relied only on nuclear fleet.
Also more upcoming subs are also nuclear subs.


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## hussain0216

MKC said:


> Well if you are correct then US wouldn't have decommissioned whole conventional fleet & relied only on nuclear fleet.
> Also more upcoming subs are also nuclear subs.



The USA dosent intend to protect its own borders solely , it goes around the world interfering and dicking around everywhere, nuke subs for it make much more sense

Pakistan only has 1 enemy state to target and destroy and a relatively small coastline

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## Zarvan

@Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Windjammer Haroon Rasheed famous journalist claims Pakistan is cancelling 8 Submarine deal !!!! Is it true ????


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> @Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Windjammer Haroon Rasheed famous journalist claims Pakistan is cancelling 8 Submarine deal !!!! Is it true ????



not true.

God save us from Pakistani media. most unprofessional bunch.

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## scholseys

pak needs to complete the nuclear triad asap

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## ZAC1

when pakistan is going to get its first s-20 sub ?


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## Quwa

valluvan said:


> I did not see any news regarding this from credible sources


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/

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## Mav3rick

valluvan said:


> I did not see any news regarding this from credible sources



And usually, such are the procurement practices concerning Military Equipment by Pakistan. We do not usually advertise our 'intent' to procure something like 20 years ahead of the actual procurement.

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## ghazi52

Mav3rick said:


> And usually, such are the procurement practices concerning Military Equipment by Pakistan. We do not usually advertise our 'intent' to procure something like 20 years ahead of the actual procurement.



True..


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## Quwa

valluvan said:


> Sir not a credible source


Multiple journalists - including an industry leading source such as Defense News - heard a statement by Pakistan's Minister of Defence Production saying that the deal had been finalized. It's written in the article I had linked.


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## fitpOsitive

Muhammad Omar said:


> Government Of Pakistan gave approval to buy 8 submarines from China....
> 
> Also Talks are with UK Germany and France to buy used Submarines....
> 
> Saw this on SAMAA News Channel....


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh? yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


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## Quwa

valluvan said:


> Sir there is lot of difference between finalising agreement and signing. In military procurement only after signing the agreement and followed by first instalment payment, then only they will start the project


Sino-Pak defence agreements aren't as transparent as your typical transaction with a Western vendor. No one knows when Pakistan sent in the initial payment for any of its purchases from China. In fact, the specifics that we do have for the submarine deal come thanks to some details found by the Financial Times, the the officials in Pakistan and China didn't even inform us of the actual type or what is included in the deal (besides 8 submarines)! 

As a general rule, if a person as high level as the Minister of Defence Production announces a deal such as this, considered it inked, especially 6-8 months after the announcement.

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## ZAC1

in 2015 Chinese media stated about the project of 8 submarines the work and timeline was already decided in past


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## khanasifm

*Moreover, he also congratulated Karachi Shipyard for the landmark achievement of securing the construction contract of 4 x new generation AIP submarines. *

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/landing-craft-mechanized-lcm-to-pakistan-navy.427348/#ixzz46oQwAvV9


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## Hassan Guy

These subs better be nuclear powered and have VLS for SLBM's otherwise this sub deal would be a waste.


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## Penguin

Hassan Guy said:


> These subs better be nuclear powered and have VLS for SLBM's otherwise this sub deal would be a waste.


Not at all. Nuclear powered boat are primarily usefull for open ocean submarine warfare (fast continuous submerged transit speeds, long endurance). Conventionally powered, with or without AIP, are more usefull closer in (for one, they are quieter). AIP improves submerged endurance.

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