# Bofors ghost finally buried, 155mm howitzers coming for Indian Army



## anant_s

NEW DELHI: The Bofors jinx has finally been broken after 30 years. After the infamous Bofors scandal of the mid-1980s torpedoed all its artillery modernisation plans, the Army will begin inducting its first modern 155mm howitzers from mid-2017 onwards. 

Defence ministry sources said on Wednesday that the cabinet committee on security , chaired by PM Narendra Modi, has cleared the acquisition of 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers from the US in a government-to-government deal worth $737 million (almost Rs 5,000 crore). 

The M-777 deal, which has a 30% offset clause, will now be inked within the next two to three weeks. "The Pentagon's letter of offer and acceptance (LoA) to India is valid till November 20, but it can be extended for another 10-15 days," said a source. TOI had earlier reported that the LoA for the M-777 deal, which the two governments have been negotiating since 2009-2010, had expired once again on November 7.There was a scramble by the two sides after that to extend the LoA's validity. 

Interestingly, the M-777 howitzers are manufactured by BAE Systems, which now owns the original Swedish Bofors company . 

Of the 145 M-777 howitzers, 120 will be "assembled, integrated and tested" in India with BAE Systems selecting Mahindra as its business partner here. *The first two howitzers will be delivered within six months of the contract being inked, with the others to follow at the rate of two per month.*

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...5mm-howitzers-coming/articleshow/55467580.cms

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## anant_s

.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Well it can fire 10 shells in 2 minutes in intensity Mode. That's like using mini MBRL

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## srshkmr

I think it was confirmed way back . But now the project is official on which means delivery will start from may 2017 ?

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## ravi gupta

srshkmr said:


> I think it was confirmed way back . But now the project is official on which means delivery will start from may 2017 ?


Somebody please tag @Bilalkhan777.


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## Hell hound

@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## sudhir007

and what about dhanush & k9 howitzer


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## Aqeel Imran

specs tells its hell fire... !! impressed..


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## Bilal Khan 777

Congratulations to India on a game changer procurement. This will bring much needed relief to their mountain artillery corps, as they have been tremendously suffering. Additional developments are indigenous and license produced guns coming out of ambitious local manufacturers. Indian Army and Government is finally paying heed to the much needed weapon of the field, and shall erode deeply into the Pakistani and Chinese technical and advantage. Time for Pakistan to invest is 155/52 guns and smart projectiles to keep the balance of guns in their favor.

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## GURU DUTT

what about the deal with M&M to make 500 in india under MII and what about the prospects of making a tracked and wheeled version SPG based M777 ?


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## Mustang06

Is smart munition's like Excalibur being procured? 
Hope we induct sufficient quantity of LWH!


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## Bilal Khan 777

GURU DUTT said:


> what about the deal with M&M to make 500 in india under MII and what about the prospects of making a tracked and wheeled version SPG based M777 ?



There is not going to be additional guns for a while, as the current ones will come and get absorbed in the new and existing mountain corps. I personally feel there will be a tough competition for funds for indigenous weapons versus the M777. That said, and knowing how decision makers think, any future requirement for M777 will continue to come as kits for assembly by Mahindra, the BAE Systems offset partner. The quantity 500 seems to be like a candy used to force BAE Systems to play ball, but the future artillery mix will have a major chunk going to Dhanush due to lower cost and local manufacturing.



sudhir007 said:


> and what about dhanush & k9 howitzer



Both programs will continue, as they have their own place in the artillery mix. We may also see BAE Systems Sweden (ex-bofors) join the mix since the blanket black listing law is being amended.

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## MULUBJA

sudhir007 said:


> and what about dhanush & k9 howitzer


 
6 dhanush are in testing and K 9 is in making.

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## GURU DUTT

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> There is not going to be additional guns for a while, as the current ones will come and get absorbed in the new and existing mountain corps. I personally feel there will be a tough competition for funds for indigenous weapons versus the M777. That said, and knowing how decision makers think, any future requirement for M777 will continue to come as kits for assembly by Mahindra, the BAE Systems offset partner. The quantity 500 seems to be like a candy used to force BAE Systems to play ball, but the future artillery mix will have a major chunk going to Dhanush due to lower cost and local manufacturing.
> 
> 
> 
> Both programs will continue, as they have their own place in the artillery mix. We may also see BAE Systems Sweden (ex-bofors) join the mix since the blanket black listing law is being amended.


wrong sir danush is 12.5tonne plus while M777 is 4.5 tonne and we need at least 750 such guns in china border and J&K sectors alone deu to constant threat of a two front war but the follow on order of simmilar numbers assmelbelled in india cannot be ruled out which would later/gradually mean complete TOT keep watching we always tend to make defence orders like that

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## MULUBJA

India has multiple options in artilary now. DRDO 45 and 52 caliber guns, TATA 52 caliber guns, Baba kalyani 45 and 52 cliber guns, M77 etc. Ultra-light gun of baba kalyani is also getting ready. Baba kalyani 105 mm gun is a mini wonder which they made in less than a year. It has changed the dynamics of power. Earlier field gun was 4+ ton heavy and baba kalyani made the gun in 900 KG with 1 km higher range. Awesome.







http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/03/idn-take-amazing-story-of-bharat-52.html

Amazing story of Bharat 52 gun which was made in 2 years.

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## Bilal Khan 777

MULUBJA said:


> India has multiple options in artilary now. DRDO 45 and 52 caliber guns, TATA 52 caliber guns, Baba kalyani 45 and 52 cliber guns, M77 etc. Ultra-light gun of baba kalyani is also getting ready. Baba kalyani 105 mm gun is a mini wonder which they made in less than a year. It has changed the dynamics of power. Earlier field gun was 4+ ton heavy and baba kalyani made the gun in 900 KG with 1 km higher range. Awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/03/idn-take-amazing-story-of-bharat-52.html
> 
> Amazing story of Bharat 52 gun which was made in 2 years.



Hence my point, that it will not be walk in the park for M777. They do have a breakthrough, but there are competitors.



GURU DUTT said:


> wrong sir danush is 12.5tonne plus while M777 is 4.5 tonne and we need at least 750 such guns in china border and J&K sectors alone deu to constant threat of a two front war but the follow on order of simmilar numbers assmelbelled in india cannot be ruled out which would later/gradually mean complete TOT keep watching we always tend to make defence orders like that



There is lot more to decisions than overall weight. 750 guns of only M777? You must work for BAE.

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## GURU DUTT

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Hence my point, that it will not be walk in the park for M777. They do have a breakthrough, but there are competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> There is lot more to decisions than overall weight. 750 guns of only M777? You must work for BAE.


M777 is ready while others are in testing or there productyion has not started properlly but we all know how M777 can be produced in huge numebrs in USA or even in india but yes im sure 145 is the initaial numbers and the total ammount would be at least thrice of the current order

no sir i dont work for BAE or any defnce contractor not even close but one things for sure M777 is going to have a loins share of towed artilerry in indian market and might replace a ultra light 105 mm field guns in near future

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## MULUBJA

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Hence my point, that it will not be walk in the park for M777. They do have a breakthrough, but there are competitors.
> 
> .


 
For us, breakthrough is most important because noother country can match india in cost in high tech items. He said that his gun is 30% cheaper than anything available globaly. Here, it ends the story.


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## untitled

Why does the gun have a bayonet?


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## mkb95

member.exe said:


> Why does the gun have a bayonet?


in case enemy get close and you need a knife.
they would just pick it up and stab him to death.

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## untitled

mkb95 said:


> in case enemy get close and you need a knife.
> they would just pick it up and stab him to death.


Won't you need a Hulk like person to do so?
Why does Hulk need a bayonet?

Just googled it. It is actually a tow catcher

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## anant_s

@Bilal Khan 777 
Sir,
lightweight M777 are purchased keeping Mountain corps on Eastern border with China in view. India has demonstrated landing of both C-130 and C-17 on High Altitude forward landing strips and with ability of these guns to be transported by these heavy lift aircrafts, it will be a very good addition to artillery fire power for the new corps.

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## hunter_hunted

mkb95 said:


> in case enemy get close and you need a knife.
> they would just pick it up and stab him to death.



hahahahaha good one , pick it up haahhahahaha


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## Abingdonboy

sudhir007 said:


> and what about dhanush & k9 howitzer


Entirely different catergories. Dhanush is a towed artillery gun system (TAGS) and K9 is a Self Propelled Gun (SPG) whilst M777 is an Ultra Lightweight Howitzer (ULH)

IA has a requirement for 5,000-6,000 brand new arty guns by 2020 of 4 different kinds; ULH, TAGS,SPG and MGS (Mounted Gun System).

ULH=M777
SPG= K9
TGS= Dhanush 45/52 and DRDO's ATAGs (buit by Bharat Forge)
MGS=CAESAR (built in India by a consortium lead by L&T) 


By the way, 645 M777 will eventuallly be in service with the IA.



GURU DUTT said:


> what about the deal with M&M to make 500 in india under MII


Watch this space.



GURU DUTT said:


> what about the prospects of making a tracked and wheeled version SPG based M777 ?


No point, the M777 is highly expensive because of the advanced lightweight materials used in it, creating a tracked/wheeled version of it entirely negates its USP.



Mustang06 said:


> Is smart munition's like Excalibur being procured?


Included in the package.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I personally feel there will be a tough competition for funds for indigenous weapons versus the M777.


Nope, the M777 occupies its own niche, there is no conflict with existing or future procurements.



anant_s said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> Sir,
> lightweight M777 are purchased keeping Mountain corps on Eastern border with China in view. India has demonstrated landing of both C-130 and C-17 on High Altitude forward landing strips and with ability of these guns to be transported by these heavy lift aircrafts, it will be a very good addition to artillery fire power for the new corps.


Even the CAESAR MGS can be transported by C-130. The greatest utility of the M777 will be in its ability to be transported by the IAF's CH-47Fs:













This capability is a game changer for the MSC.

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> There is lot more to decisions than overall weight. 750 guns of only M777? You must work for BAE.



It is around 800 M777 type light weight gun requirement-

Total Howitzer buy is around 3000 guns of various types to be completed in 10 years-


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## 4GTejasBVR

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Hence my point, that it will not be walk in the park for M777. They do have a breakthrough, but there are competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> There is lot more to decisions than overall weight. 750 guns of only M777? You must work for BAE.



M777 is a class apart from Barat 52 . It brings more jobs and technologies which will go in to future guns of DRDO and private players. 

But Bharat were a Chinese company by now they could had produced more than 2000 guns till date domestic and exports

Wait till December?30. Huge defence deals will be made


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## IblinI

Grats on the deal,and its good to see that the AH4 has every features and even more compared with M777A2.


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## dingyibvs

Holy crap, $5+ million a piece for field guns? That costs more than a tank!


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## Water Car Engineer

dingyibvs said:


> Holy crap, $5+ million a piece for field guns? That costs more than a tank!




The whole assembly line, testing is shifting to India.

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## IblinI

Chinese AH4 howitzers,
report says recently,it wins a huge bid from Kuwait against M777.


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## lonelyman

dingyibvs said:


> Holy crap, $5+ million a piece for field guns? That costs more than a tank!


50% kickbacks are normal Indian standards


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## Water Car Engineer

YuChen said:


> Chinese AH4 howitzers,
> report says recently,it wins a huge bid from Kuwait against M777.




Is China going to bid in India?

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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> Is China going to bid in India?



What is the domestic effort since late 1980‘s? I mean on howitzer itself, not truck part of JVs.


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## IblinI

Water Car Engineer said:


> Is China going to bid in India?


Only if you invite,why not.


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## Water Car Engineer

@*YuChen*

So you're post was pointless.



Dungeness said:


> What is the domestic effort since late 1980‘s? I mean on howitzer itself, not truck part of JVs.




There are several in the works right now. The artillery game has never looked this good before.










Dhanush 155mm, 45 and 52 cal

Upgunned, digitized clone of the Bofors 155mm, 39 cal






Bharat 155mm, 45 cal






Bharat 155mm, 52 without auto loader






Bharat 52 with autoloader

Bharat Forge bought out European Noricum, brought the whole line to India upgunned, digitized the GC45.






Bharat Forge with Mandus is also going to produce a ULH






Also has a lighter, digitized version of the Indian 105, good for mountain warfare.






Bharat Forge also working with TATA, Mahindra in a private sector consortium of sorts with DRDO to produce DRDO's ATGM.


And the TATA program you're talking about, they'll produce the barrel as well. I've already mentioned this to you.

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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> @*YuChen*
> 
> So you're post was pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several in the works right now. The artillery game has never looked good before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dhanush 155mm, 45 and 52 cal
> 
> Upgunned, digitized clone of the Bofors 155mm, 39 cal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 155mm, 45 cal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 155mm, 52 without auto loader
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 52 with autoloader
> 
> Bharat Forge bought out European Noricum, brought the whole line to India upgunned, digitized the GC45.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat Forge with Mandus is also going to produce a ULH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also has a lighter, digitized version of the Indian 105, good for mountain warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat Forge also working with TATA, Mahindra in a private sector consortium of sorts with DRDO to produce DRDO's ATGM.



Why is pointless? You got ToT from Bofors, and India tried to make desi version, but barrel burst. Then you stop trying and buying from international market again 30 years later?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> Why is pointless? You got ToT from Bofors, and India tried to make desi version, but barrel burst. Then you stop trying and buying from international market again 30 years later?




What? It burst, sure, but it's still in trials and going fine. Dhanush is in the last stretch of it's trials. No burst yet after re-entering trials.

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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> @*YuChen*
> 
> So you're post was pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several in the works right now. The artillery game has never looked this good before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dhanush 155mm, 45 and 52 cal
> 
> Upgunned, digitized clone of the Bofors 155mm, 39 cal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 155mm, 45 cal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 155mm, 52 without auto loader
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat 52 with autoloader
> 
> Bharat Forge bought out European Noricum, brought the whole line to India upgunned, digitized the GC45.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat Forge with Mandus is also going to produce a ULH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also has a lighter, digitized version of the Indian 105, good for mountain warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bharat Forge also working with TATA, Mahindra in a private sector consortium of sorts with DRDO to produce DRDO's ATGM.
> 
> 
> And the TATA program you're talking about, they'll produce the barrel as well. I've already mentioned this to you.




Sorry, I misunderstood. 

What I meant is India should have utilized the ToT that came with Bofors, and worked nonstop for the last 30 years. You may have a decent howitzer to field by now.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood.
> 
> What I meant is India should have utilized the ToT that came with Bofors, and worked nonstop for the last 30 years. You may have a decent howitzer to field by now.




Dude, OFB was sitting on that. They only upgunned and digitized the Bofors when they saw DRDO working with the private sector(Bharat Forge, TATAs, Mahindras), also the outside firms were also working with the private sector. Before DRDO and outside firms had to work with OFB, now they don't, can choose their production partner. OFB saw their monopoly, space being take away, in came Dhanush, competition is a great thing. OFB wouldnt have done nothing with it, and just waited for another contract otherwise.

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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> What? It burst, sure, but it's still in trials and going fine. *Dhanush is in the last stretch of it's trials*. No burst yet after re-entering trials.



That is a good progress. Why bought so many M777, instead of giving domestic products a chance?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> That is a good progress. Why bought so many M777, instead of giving domestic products a chance?



We will see. Indian military brass have a fetish for outside things, the MoD historically let them do what they please.

I dont think the M777 deal is a bad thing by any stretch. Mahindra will be raising an assembly and testing plant for the artillery pieces. One of the first in the private sector, they'll leverage this infrastructure for their own future programs.

However, I agree that Bharat Forge should be reward for entering this space and making a concerted, risky effort. For even having the balls to get into this space when OFB had controlled it since independence should be rewarded.

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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> We will see.* Indian military brass have a fetish for outside things, the MoD historically let them do what they please.*
> 
> I dont think the M777 deal is a bad thing by any stretch. Mahindra will be raising an assembly and testing plant for the artillery pieces. One of the first in the private sector, they'll leverage this infrastructure for their own future programs.
> 
> However, I agree that Bharat Forge should be reward for entering this space and making a concerted, risky effort. For even having the balls to get into this space when OFB had controlled it since independence should be rewarded.



Chinese military brass are exactly opposite. They only buy imports if they don't have options, even when domestic equipment are still not to par but good enough. 

Hope private sectors will do wonder for you, and India military can finally walk out of this imports-ToT-imports cycle.

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