# HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions



## EagleEyes

All LCA News & Discussions

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## Lilo

> *First limited series production LCA Tejas fighter set for maiden flight*
> 20 March 2007
> 
> Bangalore: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme crossed another important milestone last week Saturday with the first of the limited series production (LSP-1) aircraft successfully undertaking a low speed taxi trial. Technically, the LSP aircraft are just one step away from the Indian Air Force's standard of production (SOP) requirements.
> 
> The low speed taxi trial, which comes on the heel of equally successful ground runs, is an important precursor to the aircraft's maiden flight, which sources indicate may take place within a month. However, before that the aircraft would have to receive clearance from the Safety Test Review Board and undergo two further high-speed taxi trials.
> 
> The eight LSP aircraft, along with the two technical demonstrators (TDs) and five prototypes vehicles (PVs), are part of the LCA's flight test programme, and are a stage away from the actual series production aircraft that will be inducted in the IAF's combat squadrons.
> 
> The LSP-1, incidentally, is also the first LCA to be manufactured by the aircraft division of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The LCA Tejas project has received a determined boost from recent developments, with the IAF not only placing an order for 20 aircraft, but also taking on the responsibility to steer the programme. The IAF will now engage both the design agency (ADA) and the manufacturing agency (HAL), and drive the certification process.
> 
> Towards this end, the IAF has appointed its deputy chief of air staff, air vice marshal N Anil Kumar Browne, to head the LCA Review Group. The IAF will steer the programme through a14-member LCA project management team posted in Bangalore.
> 
> The team will report directly to air force head quarters and will have officers from the electronics, flying and mechanical branches. According to air force sources, the team will drive "every aspect" of the LCA programme to ensure that the LCA matures quickly into an operational platform.
> 
> Sources indicate that the IAF has also made it clear to ADA and HAL that it will not accept anything less than, or falling short of, what it has contracted for. *According to sources, the critical areas that the IAF wants addressed is accelerated progress on the digital flight control computer, the flight control system software, design changes to reduce noise levels in the aircraft, availability of adequate number of line replacement units, which will remove the need to cannibalise spares from existing aircraft, a lessening of the mean time between failures, and also the fitting of drop tanks. *
> http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070320_production.htm





> *
> India test fires air-to air missile *
> Sunday, 25 March 2007
> 
> NEW DELHI, Mar 25 APP: India test fired its Astra air to air missile from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur near Balasore (Orissa) on Sunday.
> 
> PTI quoting defence sources said the test of the indigenously developed Astra missile was conducted after a gap of four years. Previously, it was tested from the ITR thrice within a span of four days between May 9 and 12, 2003.
> 
> &#8220;The sleek beyond visual range missile *with a range of 80 km* was fired from launch complex-II of the ITR, at 11.56 am,&#8221; the sources said.
> 
> However, the plan to test the Dhanush, the naval version of the Prithvi surface-to-surface missile from a warship in the Bay of Bengal off the Orissa coast today was postponed.
> 
> The missile which was developed by the Defence Research and Development Laboratory in Hyderabad, is an advanced long-range missile *with a solid propellant engine and advanced guidance equipment. It is capable of achieving speeds of around Mach 4.*
> *
> The launch speed was estimated to be 0.6 to 2.2 Mach. It has been designed for use with the light combat aircraft (LCA) and is likely to be ready by 2011-12. *
> http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6684&Itemid=2



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## Neo

Can someone please post the chronology of LCA's development?
Thanks!


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## Lilo

Neo said:


> Can someone please post the chronology of LCA's development?
> Thanks!



check the wiki's article on LCA ---> "development history" section 
and its pretty well referenced

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Combat_Aircraft


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## Goodperson

Their is no denying that LCA is behind schedule, Kaveri tests failed radar is not finalized.

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## EagleEyes

If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!

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## Goodperson

WebMaster said:


> If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!



Hmm not true LCA uses GE F404 US engine same which is used in Grippen

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## EagleEyes

Actually, without Russian assitance. LCA will never get to fight in the air. Right now it has no hope.  While JF-17 numbers have increased from 150 to 200-250. Thats what you call a successful aircraft.

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## Goodperson

I thought you opened the thread for LCA.

LCA does use some western technologies but has lots of Indegeneous content LCA is made in India yes its behind schedule but is not a failure unlike JF-17 which was made by chinese for Pakistan.


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## EagleEyes

You call an aircraft a failure which is supposed to be built 250 times in Pakistan and 300-500 times in China? Go do some research, and while your at it search the meaning of joint venture. 

LCA is an aircraft which is denied by the air force which it was made for. There is nothing in LCA that India has made, except for solving the puzzle and putting it together successfuly, about 8 of them for the museum.

This thread will be fun.

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## EagleEyes

Another thing i forgot to wrote. What "Indegeneous content" has India made for LCA? Nevermind, you should be the last person i should ask this who can't spell "indigenous" and calls aircraft components "contents".

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## Adux

WebMaster said:


> You call an aircraft a failure which is supposed to be built 250 times in Pakistan and 300-500 times in China? Go do some research, and while your at it search the meaning of joint venture.
> 
> LCA is an aircraft which is denied by the air force which it was made for. There is nothing in LCA that India has made, except for solving the puzzle and putting it together successfuly, about 8 of them for the museum.
> 
> This thread will be fun.



300-500 times in PLAAF, source please; they hate the aircraft as far as I know.
I can see you are complelty uneducated on the LCA, Delays apart it is far ahead of Airforce's requirements. Composite Tech etc

Goodperson,

Weaponisation has just started, THe radar is Elta-2032 and as well as the Elta 2052.

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## Adux

I can see that this thread is LCA BAshing thread, though in very aspect it is far ahead of the JF-17, Ah Patriotism

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## Goodperson

WebMaster said:


> Another thing i forgot to wrote. What "Indegeneous content" has India made for LCA? Nevermind, you should be the last person i should ask this who can't spell "indigenous" and calls aircraft components "contents".




ha ha ha now you have come down to finding spellos nevermind my IE7 browser does not have spellcheck plugin unlike mozilla, Put it in perspective contents and component can be used in tandem otherwise all the components would have been imported and you have a plane ready where is the knowledge transfer and reaserch ?

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## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> I can see that this thread is LCA BAshing thread, though in very aspect it is far ahead of the JF-17, Ah Patriotism



Yet, your own air force dont want it. Far ahead of getting operational is probably correct in that context. 



> 300-500 times in PLAAF, source please; they hate the aircraft as far as I know.



They hated the aircraft thats why they spent 48% of Research & Development.

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## EagleEyes

Ok, so the super duper LCA. The worlds most advanced fighter. Is it flown by the kaveri engine yet? Did the super duper intelligent scientists of India were able to configure the fly by wire software? I am unknown to this. 



> Composite Tech etc



Stealth too? 

Also Adux, what if i did show you that Chinese will acquire JF-17 even though i have mentioned that PLAAF has more than 1000+ aircrafts to replace, put up around 48% of effort in R&D and finance, and the list goes on.

Will you still deny?


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## EagleEyes

http://www.kanwa.com/dnws/showpl.php?id=96 
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

Would you like to have your own Indian written on an indian website?

http://www.india-defence.com/specifications/fighters/14

Official Chinese Military website?

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/dljl/fc1/news/11045888/20070318/13994778.html

Now i want to scream, and repeat keyser quote in his sig.

"Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

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## PakSniper

Adux said:


> 300-500 times in PLAAF, source please; they hate the aircraft as far as I know.
> I can see you are complelty uneducated on the LCA, Delays apart it is far ahead of Airforce's requirements. Composite Tech etc
> 
> Goodperson,
> 
> Weaponisation has just started, THe radar is Elta-2032 and as well as the Elta 2052.



Provide proof they hate the air craft, Arm Chair General, Sir.  

If it was far ahead of AF requirements wouldn't they be then ordering the air-craft in large numbers, after 2 decades of research now you start weaponization, and on other hand you make fun of "thunder" which hasn't been weaponization, where now we are soon going to start it. I wonder how long will it take for the LCA probably another decade?

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## Goodperson

dragonking786 said:


> Provide proof they hate the air craft, Arm Chair General, Sir.
> 
> If it was far ahead of AF requirements wouldn't they be then ordering the air-craft in large numbers, after 2 decades of research now you start weaponization, and on other hand you make fun of "thunder" which hasn't been weaponization, where now we are soon going to start it. I wonder how long will it take for the LCA probably another decade?



I thought this was LCA news and Discussions thread stated by Webby,

Who made fun of "thunder" ? I agree JF-17 is a super duper Aircraft and kill any aircraft in IAF if that makes you happy.


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## Goodperson

*Serial Production of LCA Tejas Fighter Jet Begins*

The Aeronautical Development Agency's (ADA's) prestigious but delayed Light Combat Aircraft programme crossed another important milestone on Saturday with the first of the limited series production (LSP-1) aircraft successfully undertaking its low speed taxi trial.

The test will gladden the hearts of the LCA's end user - the Indian Air Force (IAF) - since the LSP aircraft are that much closer technically to the IAF's `SOP' (standard of production) requirements.

The low speed taxi trial which follows the completion of equally successful ground runs, is a key precursor to the aircraft's maiden flight, which engineers say could happen within a month. "All that is now left before the maiden flight is the clearance from the Safety Test Review Board and two high speed taxi trials."

Though the eight LSP aircraft, along with the two technical demonstrators (TDs) and five prototypes vehicles (PVs), are part of the LCA's flight test programme, they are just a step away from the actual series production aircraft which will fly in the IAF's combat squadrons. The LSP-1 is also the first LCA to be manufactured by the Aircraft Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The LCA project got a boost in recent months with the IAF (that has placed an order for 20 aircraft worth approximately Rs. 2000 crore) steering the programme, engaging with both the design agency (ADA) and the manufacturing agency (HAL), and driving the certification process. The IAF's commitment was also evident when it selected the recently appointed Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Vice Marshal N.Anil Kumar Browne to head the LCA Review Group.

The IAF has decided to support the programme by posting a 14-member LCA Project Management Team to Bangalore that will be led by an Air Vice Marshal. The team, which will report directly to Air Head Quarters and have officers from the electronics, flying and mechanical branches, will according to sources "drive every aspect of the LCA programme to ensure that the LCA matures quickly into an operational platform".

However, according to sources the IAF has also made it clear to ADA and HAL that it will accept "nothing short of what it has contracted for." Among the critical areas that the IAF wants accelerated progress on are the digital flight control computer, the flight control system software, design changes to reduce the noise levels in the aircraft, availability of adequate number of line replacement units (to reduce cannibalising of spares between the existing aircraft), a lessening of the mean time between failures, and fitting of drop tanks. The LCA is probably the only programme where even after 638 sorties the drop tanks are yet to be fitted on the aircraft. 

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2942


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## EagleEyes

Goodperson said:


> I thought this was LCA news and Discussions thread stated by Webby,
> 
> Who made fun of "thunder" ? I agree JF-17 is a super duper Aircraft and kill any aircraft in IAF if that makes you happy.



Dont copy. Super Duper Aircraft is reserved for LCA. Except for highlighting that you cant spell in your previous post, you still didn't answer.

Which components or parts of aircraft did India make instead of just putting it together, and calling it a R&D success?



> The LCA is probably the only programme where even after 638 sorties the drop tanks are yet to be fitted on the aircraft.



Just keep flying the plane wont do anything. It will be vulnerable to thunder!

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## Adux

WebMaster said:


> Yet, your own air force dont want it. Far ahead of getting operational is probably correct in that context.
> 
> They hated the aircraft thats why they spent 48% of Research & Development.



Therefore Initial Order for 20 is given, We have Detailed reports in ADA website, about the parameters achieved as well when they failed, As far as I know JF-17 only flies. Rest is all Internet jargon. Where did you hear Chinese are going to replace airframe for airframe. They spend 48% on it, so that they can shove it on 3rd world countries.

composites webby, in JF-17?
By surface area or Total weight do you have any information on that, We have detailed reports including a National Geographic Exclusive.

Engine is GE-404(Kaveri being developed) just like Rd-93(WS-13 beind developed) siutation, Which is what is used in Gripen, Radar is Elta 2032(LRDE developing one), Elta 2052 Aesa is being talked about, Cant confirm.Quadruplux FBW, Twin Seater already being built, Flight Hours of 700 hours. Ah then again LCA is Last Chance Aircraft. The strides LCA took in the last 5 years than that Failed MIg-33 Design

You have seen what I think of the Arjun- pathetic is not the word, LCA sorry way out of your league.

Now I have the capacity to accept, sorry I cant sit here and listen to all this stupid talk just because they are indian products


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## Goodperson

WebMaster said:


> Dont copy. Super Duper Aircraft is reserved for LCA. Except for highlighting that you cant spell in your previous post, you still didn't answer.
> 
> Which components or parts of aircraft did India make instead of just putting it together, and calling it a R&D success?
> 
> 
> 
> Just keep flying the plane wont do anything. It will be vulnerable to thunder!



Can't you read my post where I said it was a spello.


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## Lilo

for people who want to know abt indigenous content of LCA

here goes..






> *
> Fly-by-wire Control Laws*
> 
> One of the most ambitious requirements for the LCA was the specification that it would have "relaxed static stability." Although Dassault had offered an analogue FCS system in 1988, the ADA recognised that digital flight control technology would soon supplant it.[5] RSS technology was introduced in 1974 on the General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) YF-16, which was the world's first aircraft to be slightly aerodynamically unstable by design. Most aircraft are designed with "positive" static stability, which means they have a natural tendency to return to level and controlled flight in the absence of control inputs; however, this quality tends to oppose the pilot's efforts to maneuver. An aircraft with "negative" static stability (i.e., RSS), on the other hand, will quickly depart from level and controlled flight unless the pilot constantly works to keep it in trim; while this enhances maneuverability, it is very wearing on a pilot relying on a mechanical flight control system. What made RSS practical on the YF-16 was a new technology &#8212; the "fly-by-wire" flight control system &#8212; which employs flight computers to electronically keep the aircraft's instability in check whenever it is not desired.
> 
> Development of a FBW flight control system requires extensive knowledge of flight control laws and the expensive writing of a considerable amount of software code for the flight control computers, as well as its integration with the avionics and other electronic systems. When the LCA programme was launched, FBW was a state-of-the-art technology and such a sensitive one that India could find no nation willing to export it. Therefore, in 1992 the LCA National Control Law (CLAW) team was set up by the National Aeronautics Laboratory to develop India's own version. The CLAW team's scientists and mathematicians were successful in developing their control laws, but could not test them since India did not possess advanced real-time ground simulators at that time. Accordingly, British Aerospace (BAe) and Lockheed Martin were brought in to help in 1993, but the effort required for the Aeronautical Development Establishment to code the control laws into the FCS software proved a much larger job than originally anticipated.
> 
> Specific control law problems were tested on BAe's simulators (and on HAL's, once theirs became available). As it was being developed, progressive elements of the coding were checked out on the "Minibird" and "Ironbird" test rigs at the ADE and HAL, respectively. A second series of inflight simulation tests of the integrated flight control software were conducted on the F-16 VISTA (Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
> 
> The NAL's CLAW team eventually managed to successfully complete integration of the flight control laws indigenously, with the FCS software performing flawlessly for over 50 hours of pilot testing on TD-1, resulting in the aircraft being cleared for flight in early 2001. The LCA's maiden flight was made by TD-1 from National Flight Test Center(NFTC), near Bangalore, on 4 January 2001, and its first successful supersonic flight followed on 1 August 2003. TD-2 was scheduled to make its first flight in September 2001, but this was not achieved until 6 June 2002. The Tejas' automatic flight control system (AFCS) has been highly praised by all of its test pilots, one of whom said that he found it easier to take off with the LCA than in a Mirage [2000].[9]





> *Airframe*
> The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites (CFC), and titanium-alloy steels. The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, airbrakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class.[34] Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.
> 
> *The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerized numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece.* ...means we even innovated new concepts which never existed for other planes [35] A 'nose' for the rudder is added by 'squeeze' riveting.
> 
> The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%. While each of these factors can reduce production costs, an additional benefit &#8212; and significant cost savings &#8212; is realised in the shorter time required to assemble the aircraft &#8212; seven months for the LCA as opposed to 11 months using an all-metal airframe.[6]
> 
> The airframe of the naval variant of the Tejas will be modified with a nose droop to provide improved view during landing approach, and wing leading-edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach. The LEVCONs are control surfaces that extend from the wing-root leading edge and thus afford better low-speed handling for the LCA, which would otherwise be slightly hampered due to the increased drag that results from its delta-wing design. As an added benefit, the LEVCONs will also increase controllability at high angles of attack (AoA).
> 
> The naval Tejas will also have a strengthened spine, a longer and stronger undercarriage, and powered nose wheel steering for deck manoeuvrability.[11][36] The Tejas trainer variant will have "aerodynamic commonality" with the two-seat naval aircraft design.[37]





> *Landing gear*
> 
> The Tejas has a hydraulically retractable tricycle-type landing gear with a pair of single inward-retracting mainwheels and a steerable, twin-wheel forward-retracting nose gear. The landing gear was originally to have been imported, but following the imposition of trade sanctions, HAL developed the entire system independently.
> 
> India's Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC) led the team that developed the titanium half-alloy tubes that are used for hydraulic power transmission and they are critical components in the LCA. India is one of only six nations which have developed this technology, which also has space applications.[38]





> *Flight controls*
> 
> Since the Tejas is a "relaxed static stability" design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot. The Tejas' aerodynamic configuration is based on a pure delta-wing layout with shoulder-mounted wings. Its control surfaces are all hydraulically actuated. The wing's outer leading edge incorporates three-section slats, while the inboard sections have additional slats to generate vortex lift over the inner wing and high-energy air-flow along the tail fin to enhance high-AoA stability and prevent departure from controlled flight. The wing trailing edge is occupied by two-segment elevons to provide pitch and yaw control. The only empennage-mounted control surfaces are the single-piece rudder and two airbrakes located in the upper rear part of the fuselage, one each on either side of the fin.
> 
> The digital FBW system of the Tejas employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each with its own independent power supply and all housed in a single LRU. The DFCC receives signals from a variety of sensors and pilot control stick inputs, and processes these through the appropriate channels to excite and control the elevons, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a subset of the Ada language for software implementation. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like the MFDs through MIL-STD-1553B multiplex avionics data buses and RS-422 serial links.





> *Avionics*
> 
> 
> The Tejas has a night vision goggles (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit" that is dominated by an indigenous head-up display (HUD), three 5 in x 5 in multi-function displays, two Smart Standby Display Units (SSDU), and a "get-you-home" panel. The CSIO-developed HUD, Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS), and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls reduce pilot workload and increase situation awareness by allowing the pilot to access navigation and weapon-aiming information with minimal need to spend time "head down" in the cockpit.
> 
> The MFDs provide information on the engine, hydraulics, electrical, flight control, and environmental control systems on a need-to-know basis, along with basic flight and tactical information. Dual redundant display processors produce computer-generated imagery on these displays. The pilot interacts with the complex avionics systems through a simple multifunction keyboard and function and sensor selection panels.
> 
> Target acquisition is accomplished through a state-of-the-art radar &#8212; potentially supplemented by a laser designator pod, forward-looking infra-red (FLIR) or other opto-electronic sensors &#8212; to provide accurate target information to enhance kill probabilities. A ring laser gyro (RLG)-based inertial navigation system (INS) provides accurate navigation guidance to the pilot. The LCA also has secure and jam-resistant communication systems such as the "identify friend or foe" (IFF) transponder/interrogator, VHF/UHF radios, and air-to-air/air-to-ground datalinks. The ADA Systems Directorate's Integrated Digital Avionics Suite (IDAS) integrates the flight controls, environmental controls, aircraft utilities systems management, stores management system (SMS), etc. on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit, high-throughput mission computer.





> *Self-protection*
> 
> An advanced electronic warfare suite enhances the Tejas' survivability during deep penetration and combat. The LCA's EW suite is being developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) &#8212; which was known as the Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) until June 2001 &#8212; with support from the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL).[8] This EW suite, known as "Mayavi" (Sanskrit: "Magician"), includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), self-protection jammer, laser warning system, missile approach warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser. In the interim, the Indian Defence Ministry has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites have been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes.[39]
> 
> The ADA claims that a degree of stealth has been designed into the Tejas. Being very small, there is an inherent degree of "visual stealth", but the airframe's use of a high degree of composites (which do not themselves reflect radar waves), a Y-duct inlet which shields the engine compressor face from probing radar waves, and the application of radar-absorbent material (RAM) coatings are intended to minimise its susceptibility to detection and tracking by the radars of enemy fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, active-radar air-to-air missiles (AAM), and surface-to-air missile (SAM) defense systems.





> *MAYAVI EW system* and btw our MAYAVI is going to be incorporated in Israeli F35 and what else does any one need to prove that some of our systems are world class..??
> 
> The scientist said this venture will see an advanced EW system called MAYAVI developed for India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that Israel plans to buy from the United States.
> 
> The EW system will feature advanced radar warning, radar jamming, and electronic combat and self-protection systems. It also will have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the LCA against radar-guided missiles.





> A consortia of nuclear and defence entities led by the Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC), here have developed titanium half alloy tubes, a key materials component that would both accelerate the project and reduce production costs of the light combat aircraft (LCA)-Tejas.
> 
> Used for hydraulic power transmission, these titanium tubes also find application in space, especially the geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).
> 
> India would be among a group of half a dozen nations, now with the capability to produce these tubes indigenously. The other countries include, the US, the UK, France, Russia and Germany.





> *Escape systems*
> To improve pilot safety during ejection, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, India created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker. *This system, which is the first of its kind, can be operated from outside the aircraft, an important consideration when the pilot is trapped or unconscious*.



The probable non-indigenous content in LCA is its radar ,engine and may be some of its armaments.

webby how abt some comments on this.... especially since you were sayin that LCA was an "assembled" Aircraft  
with minimal "indigeonous"...oops....i meant "indigeous"..... "content" oops again...err i meant "components"
.


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## zeus

guys even Radar will be indian soon ,being co-admin of www.lca-tejas.org i wanted to clear some points here 

RADAR : Tejas PV-1,2,3&5 will get Elta's 2032 radar which is a interim radar ,and Tejas Lsp-3 which will fly by august or September 2007 will get Desi MMR radar ,almost two dozen MMR have been produced till now and further development of Aesa version of MMR radar has begun and will incorporate into Tejas by 2010-11

Not liked by air force ?? :Air force has a dedicated team for induction of tejas into air force and a senior Air force official who was looking after the induction of Sukhoi su 30 mki in indian air force has been assigned this job now to see the induction of tejas in indian air force 
link here
http://www.idrw.org/index.php?categoryid=1&p2_articleid=534

Requirements have gone up : it was earlier decided to induct only 150 to 200 tejas and now the number will be touching 250 to 300 ,air force technicians have already working on tejas instead of ADA technicians


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## Owais

Goodperson said:


> I thought this was LCA news and Discussions thread stated by Webby,
> 
> Who made fun of "thunder" ? I agree JF-17 is a super duper Aircraft and kill any aircraft in IAF if that makes you happy.



Dont get emotional sir. its a fact that Thunder can get every IAF jet even MKI when its backed by AWACs or within country's space.



lilo said:


> for people who want to know abt indigenous content of LCA
> 
> here goes


link please


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## zeus

and also a naval pilot has been flying tejas for some time and First N-lca NP-1 will take to air by 2008 and will carry out carrier landing trials from 2009


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## zeus

for which components do you want to know Owais ? since many of the components are developed by different labs and defence establishment ,which one you want to know ?


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## zeus

here are some but will keep updating the list 

# An indigenous Head Up Display (HUD) replaces the imported HUD. The new HUD, developed by CSIO, Chandigarh, has a larger field of view, three times the brightness, higher redundancy and is noiseless since the design does not call for a cooling fan.
# An indigenous single LRU Integrated Communication System (INCOM) replaces a three LRU INCOM in LCA-TD1. The new INCOM developed by HAL , Hyderabad is a second generation software based system with significant weight saving (17 Kg), reduced volume(43% of original volume), and improved system performance and reliability.

* Mission Computer(MC): MC performs the central processing functions apart from performing as Bus Controller and is the central core of the Avionics system. The hardware architecture is based on a dual 80386 based computer with dual port RAM for interprocessor communication. There are three dual redundant communication channels meeting with MIL-STD-1553B data bus specifications. The hardware unit development was done by ASIEO, Bangalore and Software Design & Development by ADA.
* Control & Coding Unit (CCU): In the normal mode, CCU provides real time I/O access which are essentially pilot's controls and power on controls for certain equipment. In the reversionary mode, when MC fails, CCU performs the central processing functions of MC. The CCU also generates voice warning signals. The main processor is Intel 80386 microprocessor. The hardware is developed by RCI, Hyderabad and software by ADA.
* Display Processors (DP): DP is one of the mission critical software intensive LRUs of LCA. The DP drives two types of display surfaces viz. a monochrome Head Up display (HUD) and two colour multifunction displays (MFDs). The equipment is based on four Intel 80960 microprocessors. There are two DPs provided (one normal and one backup) in LCA. These units are developed by ADE, Bangalore
* Mission Preparation & Data Retrieval Unit (MPRU): MPRU is a data entry and retrieval unit of LCA Avionics architecture. The unit performs mission preparation and data retrieval functions. In the preparation mode, it transfers mission data prepared on Data Preparation Cartridge (DPC) with the help of ground compliment, to various Avionics equipment. In the second function, the MPRU receives data from various equipment during the Operational Flight Program (OFP) and stores data on Resident Cartridge Card (RCC). This unit is developed by LRDE, Bangalore.
* USMS Electronic Units: The following processor based digital Electronics Units (EU) are used for control and monitoring, data logging for fault diagnosis and maintenance.
o Environment Control System Controller (ECSC)
o Engine and Electrical Monitoring System Electronics Unit (EEMS-EU)
o Digital Fuel Monitoring System Electronics Unit (DFM-EU)
o Digital Hydraulics and Brake Management System Electronics Unit (DH-EU)
* V/UHF Equipment: V/UHF equipment is a secure jam resisant airborne radio communication set which provides simplex two way voice and data communication in the VHF and UHF frequency bands. This unit is developed by HAL, Hyderabad.
* Multi Function Keyboard (MFK): MFK is an interfce for pilot dialogue concerning certain selected equipment of Avionics system. It comprises LCD panel, alphanumeric keys, push buttions for power ON / OFF and LEDs indicating power ON / OFF status of certain Avionics equipment. This unit is developed by BEL, Bangalore.
* Head Up Display (HUD): HUD is of conventional type with a Total Field of View (TFOV) of 24 degrees circular. A Change Coupled Device (CCD) based camera is mounted on the HUD for recording purposes. HUD dsplays various navigation and weapon related data. This unit is developed by CSIO, Chandigarh.
* Colour Multi Function Displays (MFDs): LCD based colour MFDs hava a useful screen area of 125 mm x 125 mm. They have soft keys around their periphery for interaction with the systems. This display provides various aircraft system pages and navigation pages in addition to RADAR & FLIR display.


The development effort for the LCA is lead by ADA. Apart from govt labs and agencies, many educational institutes and private companies also have a role. A list of some of the government agencies involved in the LCA and MCA projects:

* Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)
* Aeronautical Defense Establishment (ADE)
* Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO)
* Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)
* National Aerospace Laboratries (NAL)
* Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)
* National Test Flight Centre (NTFC), Hosur (near Bangalore)
* Electronic Radar Development Establishment (ERDE)
* Council for scientific and Industrial Researh(CSIR)

Some of the people associated with LCA development:

* ADA Programme Director: M.B.Verma
* Programme Director,NFTC: Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar
* Project Director,General Systems: K.G. Vivek
* K.V.L.Rao, Project Director,Propulsion Systems
* T.G.Pai, Project Director,Technology Development, LCA Navy
* M.B.Verma, Project Director, General System
* Director-General, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA): Vasudeva Aatre
* Test/Chase Pilots: Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal, Wing Commander R Nambiar, Wing Commander Banerjee
* Director, National Institute of Advanced Studies: Roddam Narasimha(chairman of the committee that reviewed the LCA in 1990)
* HAL Chairman: C.G. Krishnadas Nair
* NID LCA Team Leader: Dr S Ghosal
* Head of Advanced Composites Unit,NAL: M.Subba Rao
* Director-General (CSIR): Dr R.A Mashelkar


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## zeus

LCA Avionics architecture is configured around a three bus system (MIL-STD-1553B) in a distributed environment. The heart of the system is a 32-bit Mission Computer (MC) which performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for mission computer software.Accurate navigation and guidance is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration. Jam resistant radio commumication system with advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) environment. In the EW suite, Electromagnetic and Electroptic receivers and jammers provide the necessary "soft-kill" capability.the mission computer has been replaced by another indian OAC computer , software has been written by ada


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## zeus

Project only started in 1993 and not in 1980 has claimed by some western media 

1985: LCA launched with a time frame of 10 years after the Union cabinet sanctioned Rs 560 crore for the project in 1983. Aeronautical Development Agency to be the nodal agency.

1988: ADA prepares project definition phase (PDP) after consulting MBB, France, on some aspects.

1990: Air HQ finds PDP deficient in crucial parameters. Expert committee formed to resolve deadlock. It is agreed that two technology demonstration aircraft to be built before investments cleared for production.

1993: After three years of uncertainty, Phase 1 is sanctioned at a cost Rs 2,188 crore. Milestones include a roll out of first aircraft by 1995 and first flight by 1996. 

1995: Roll out does happen but there are serious doubts as to whether the first flight would occur as major problems bedevil flight control systems as well as mastery over composites.

1998: With the aircraft far from ready, the US sanctions after Pokhran tests cause setbacks in flight control technologies and systems integration.

1999: Low speed and high speed taxi trials are done. But flight trials delayed because of minor fire caused by overheating valve near cockpit.

2001: First flight on January 4. More flights follow, including one on Feb 9 at Aero India 2001 [Bangalore, February 7 to 11]. It completes it's first block of tests on June 2.


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## Adux

Owais said:


> Dont get emotional sir. its a fact that Thunder can get every IAF jet even MKI when its backed by AWACs or within country's space.
> 
> 
> link please



So you are assuming Indian planes wont have AWACS


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## Contrarian

BTW LCA is a success or not, it was developed by India, the airframe was made in India. JF-17 on the other hand is just paid for by Pakistan. China made it. Ofcourse it will take India time, we could have bought some MiG 29's, opened up a licenced production line in India and called it Indian achievement, something that Pakistan has done with Jf-17.

webby, i hope you are satisfied with the number of Indian indegenous equipments in Tejas.


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## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> So you are assuming Indian planes wont have AWACS



He is not assuming Indian planes will not have AWACs, he is just saying that MKI or any other aircraft will have its arse kicked by the Thunder regardless of so called superiority, and just on a note. MKI RCS will make it more vulerable to be detected by the AWACs while JF-17s radar will be off.


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## EagleEyes

zeus,

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing.


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## con

WebMaster said:


> He is not assuming Indian planes will not have AWACs, he is just saying that MKI or any other aircraft will have its arse kicked by the Thunder regardless of so called superiority, and just on a note. MKI RCS will make it more vulerable to be detected by the AWACs while JF-17s radar will be off.



I am just wondering,what would be the area of operation for Pakistani AWACS? Will it possibly operate from Afghan airspace during hostilities?

If they confine in the Pakistani airspace itself,it will at severe disadvantage?

Is there any thread which discuss Pakistani Awacs operation?


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## EagleEyes

Area of operation is unknown, and pretty sure it will not have a fixed operation area. Afghanistan is unlikely, not necessary, and ineffective. 

My guess is some where at the border, inside the enemy's territory etc.. 

Your welcome to discuss this here.

https://defence.pk/forums/showthread.php?t=1284


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## con

WebMaster said:


> Area of operation is unknown, and pretty sure it will not have a fixed operation area. Afghanistan is unlikely, not necessary, and ineffective.
> 
> My guess is some where at the border, inside the enemy's territory etc..
> 
> Your welcome to discuss this here.
> 
> https://defence.pk/forums/showthread.php?t=1284



awacs will not be send into enemy airspace.It is too good a target to operate there,until unless there is atleast a theatre air superiority.

thanks for the link mate


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## Contrarian

WebMaster said:


> He is not assuming Indian planes will not have AWACs, he is just saying that MKI or any other aircraft will have its arse kicked by the Thunder regardless of so called superiority, and just on a note. MKI RCS will make it more vulerable to be detected by the AWACs while JF-17s radar will be off.



Unfortunately, JF-17 will have to use its own radar to fire the missiles, and thats where things would change. Whats the point in having situational awareness when you cant use it effectively. And most fights will still be dogfights regardless of BVR capabilities, and there again JF-17 will lose. Weeby were you using the arguments of J-10, it was atleast understandable! Ur comparing a plane of 3rd generation, JF-17 is just a cheap plane to fill numbers man, let it be what it is.


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## Adux

WebMaster said:


> Area of operation is unknown, and pretty sure it will not have a fixed operation area. Afghanistan is unlikely, not necessary, and ineffective.
> 
> My guess is some where at the border, inside the enemy's territory etc..
> 
> Your welcome to discuss this here.
> 
> https://defence.pk/forums/showthread.php?t=1284



AWACS in Enemy Territory, lol


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## Keysersoze

The AWACS will operate approx 100-150km behind the border. Pak has enough to overlap in its coverage of the whole country without difficulty.


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## Adux

I love it when Patriotism make lesser than Medicore weapons make them Superduper Weapon of Destruction, AkA JF-17 killing a Su-30MKI


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> I love it when Patriotism make lesser than Medicore weapons make them Superduper Weapon of Destruction, AkA JF-17 killing a Su-30MKI



Medicore? to quote a phrase you are fond of.....got a link for that?

Since you don't like to pay attention you will note that the upgrades to the aircraft (second batch) have added an additional $10 million (approx) to the aircraft cost. It will have an AESA radar, BVR capability and full FBW. Oh and one important advantage......it's not testing anymore and is in production....

I love it when patriotism makes a platform invincible Aka MKI can't be touched....


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## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> AWACS in Enemy Territory, lol



Whats so funny about that?

AEW&Cs are going to be in the Indian territory to even support the ground troops, receving data, and assigning missions.


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## EagleEyes

malaymishra123 said:


> Unfortunately, JF-17 will have to use its own radar to fire the missiles, and thats where things would change. Whats the point in having situational awareness when you cant use it effectively. And most fights will still be dogfights regardless of BVR capabilities, and there again JF-17 will lose. Weeby were you using the arguments of J-10, it was atleast understandable! Ur comparing a plane of 3rd generation, JF-17 is just a cheap plane to fill numbers man, let it be what it is.



Why do we have to sing the song of arrogance again and again? JF-17 is not a 3rd generation fighter. Who says that JF-17 cant use the situational awareness effectively? Why would JF-17 lose in a dog fight? Because you want to?


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## Keysersoze

WebMaster said:


> Whats so funny about that?
> 
> AEW&Cs are going to be in the Indian territory to even support the ground troops, receving data, and assigning missions.



Webby AWACS never really operate too far into a danger zone. they are too vulnerable to attack as their electronic signature is too large. you may be thinking of ELINT aircraft.


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## EagleEyes

keyser,

ELINT capability is news to me.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/transall/

The capability seems to old (Vietnam, World War II), and what is so special about it that it can go into the enemys territory?

AEW&Cs can still go into the enemys territory, i have never said how much inside, that is up to the PAF. Thats of course my assumption nothing else. Any further information on ELINT capability?

Plus, Erieye does have ELINT capability, see this link.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/emb/


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## Adux

keysersoze said:


> Medicore? to quote a phrase you are fond of.....got a link for that?
> 
> Since you don't like to pay attention you will note that the upgrades to the aircraft (second batch) have added an additional $10 million (approx) to the aircraft cost. It will have an AESA radar, BVR capability and full FBW. Oh and one important advantage......it's not testing anymore and is in production....
> 
> I love it when patriotism makes a platform invincible Aka MKI can't be touched....



FUBAR, AESA from where. 
ps: You dont need to test it, we know it flies. Weapon tests needs radar.lol. Since we are comparing it with Su-30MKI, It is already 60 in numbers and produced at 17/year


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## Adux

WebMaster said:


> keyser,
> 
> AEW&Cs can still go into the enemys territory, i have never said how much inside, that is up to the PAF.



No it is not with the PAF, but on your enemy's forces, Unless and untill Air Domination is achieved, AWACS will never come inside the Enemy territory. Counter-measures will only work this much


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> FUBAR, AESA from where.
> ps: You dont need to test it, we know it flies. Weapon tests needs radar.lol. Since we are comparing it with Su-30MKI, It is already 60 in numbers and produced at 17/year



Vixen 500E or 750 radars< The Grifo 2000 radar is upgradeable to Aesa, as is the RC400 and RBE2 which are being looked at. As has been stated about a MILLION times on this website and others, the first batch will have Chinese systems the second version will have upgrades to western gear.


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## Adux

Stated on this Website is your cue to World of Truth my friend, That list of yours basically sums up the best radars in Europe, Wishlist.lol

RBE 2 is not an AESA, if I remember correctly, There is only one country with operational AESA as of right now. Others are in later or earlier stage of development


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## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Stated on this Website is your cue to World of Truth my friend, That list of yours basically sums up the best radars in Europe, Wishlist.lol
> 
> RBE 2 is not an AESA, if I remember correctly, There is only one country with operational AESA as of right now. Others are in later or earlier stage of development



You got alot of reading to do!

PS: He also stated other sites!

PAF Air Cheif, said they will let 2 chinese firm compete for the radar and "then we will let that radar compete with the western radars". Its been stated time and time again, recently from insider sources on PakDef (who from retired PAF personal with connections) said, Pakistan sent a delegation to UK.

Also, Pashmim is a very credible source he's the man behind who gave PAF their first F-16s through his connections with LM, and himself a F-86 and F-16 pilot, knew about the French radar awhile before he stated it, what ever that man has said came true in the past 3 years I been reading his posts, its your choice to accept it or not, even Keys will agree with me on this. Even he (Phasmim) knew before anyone on public forums that first 50 will be Chinese and rest 200 will be Western equipped. Also, been stated time and time again that PAF will get EW suites from western nations its you who ignore these things on purpose making yourself look like an idiot. You acted as if JF-17 didn't have RD-93 and you claimed you had a source and then I proved you wrong with a report from Russian news where as yours was Feb mines was from March. Hell, even PAF is now making a decision to go western with armament or with Chinese.

*Source KDR*

JF-17 News

Air Marshal Khalid Choudhry, Chairman of the Pakistan aeronautical Complex Board (PACB), accepted KDR&#8217;s exclusive interview. He disclosed that 8 JF17 fighters are now on the production line in Chengdu, and some of them will be delivered to Pakistan on March 23, 2007, the Independence Day of the country. These two JF17 fighters are expected to give demonstrative flights on the Independence Day, and the remaining JF17 fighters will all be delivered to Pakistan within 2007. In January 2008, Pakistan will start producing JF17 fighter.
*
Air Marshal Choudhry told KDR that the first batch of JF17 fighters would be fitted with Chinese-made radar systems, and currently two research institutes in Nanjing and Wuxi (KDR note: No.14 Institute and No.607 Institute) are bidding for the radar systems. Pakistan will make a decision upon completing all tests. Meanwhile, since the Pakistani Air Force has chosen the Grifo-7 radar system designed by Italian Galileo Avionica Company for F7PG fighter, Galileo Avionica hopes that eventually it will win the bid for JF17 radar system. &#8220;Pakistan is very clever. They will allow two Chinese companies to compete with each other first, and then get the Chinese compete with Western companies. If Pakistan requests, Galileo Avionica will provide Pakistan with the radar system for testing on JF17,&#8221; a source from Galileo Avionica said. KDR learned that the testing JF17 uses Chinese KLJ10 radar.*

As for the weapon systems on JF17, China offered a number of choices, including LT-2 laser guided bombs, LS-6 GPS guided bombs and SD10 active radar guided AAMs. Nonetheless, Air Marshal Choudhry said that they are still assessing these offers and no final decisions have been made. JF17 can be fitted with either Chinese weapon systems or Western weapons.

As regard the application of RD93 engines, Air Marshal confirmed that &#8220;it is not an issue at all.&#8221; He said that Pakistan would formally begin manufacturing JF17fighters in January 2008. With technological assistance from China, installation of the production facility is now under way, and some of the equipments are imported from Western countries. The production output of JF17 after 2008 will be very much depending on the demand of the Pakistani Air Force, probably 15-20 annually. Air Marshal said that the eventual production plan would be more than 150, because the Pakistani Air Force needs to fully replace the existing hundreds of Mirage and J7 fighters.

Air Commodore Muhammad Kamal Alam, Managing Director of PACB, told KDR that the current plan is that RD93 will be serviced by China, but Pakistan has confidence that it would eventually maintain and repair the engines on its own, as Pakistan had the experience of repairing the American and French aviation engines simultaneously under extremely difficult conditions. He said that Pakistan planned to manufacture 15 JF17 fighters in 2008and another 20 in 2009.

According to the terms in the original JF17 production contract, eventually 50% of the production activity will be in Pakistan, and the final assembling will also be in Pakistan. There is also a plan to promote JF17 to the Sri Lanka Air Force.
_
KDR has confirmed that JF17 uses longitudinal quadroplex fly-by-wire (FBW) system, and the lateral flight control system is still mechanical. The FC1 designed in 2001 was planned to use longitudinal duplex FBW system while Air Marshal Choudhry said that the upgraded JF17 fighter would use all directional FBW system.

Br. General Raja Hafeez, Managing Director for aircraft manufacturing at PACB, told KDR that the unit price of JF17 would be under US$20 million.

At the same time of receiving JF17 fighters, Pakistan also plans to purchase 18 F16 Block 52 fighters during the first phase, and it also reserves the option of purchasing another 18 fighters of the same model. In addition, Pakistan will upgrade the F16 fighters currently in service. The F16 Block 52 fighter currently being promoted to Pakistan is fitted with external fuel tanks similar to the F16 Block 52 fighters of the Singaporean Air Force. A source from the Pakistani Air Force says that the weapon systems to be fitted on F16 Block 52 are still under final assessment.

Group Captain Arif Mahmood TI (M), Director of Human Resources Department of the Pakistani Air Force Headquarters, disclosed to KDR that Pakistan is now tired of the constant sanctions and technological restrictions of other countries, and thus earnestly hopes that it can manufacture fighters independently. Nonetheless, he frankly acknowledged that the pilots of the Air Force like the US-made F16 better, and annual training time of these pilots is 100-200 hours. The requirements for F16 pilots are different from those for other types of fighters, and they are often assigned with a variety of tasks.

KDR assumes that the Pakistani Air Force has already put the JF17 plan on the top of its priorities.

With JF17 fighters entering the Pakistani Air Force soon, the Chinese military enterprises have started to bid for the weapon systems to be fitted on JF17. The laser guided bombs currently fitted on JF17 is extremely similar to the LT-2 LGB developed by Luoyang Optical-Electro Technology Development Center. In addition, China also put on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show another type of laser targeting pod specifically designed for JF17.

At the IDEAS 2006 in Karachi, NORINCO displayed a 500kg laser guided called GB1,
which uses a laser seeker similar to that of the Russian 155mm Krashnopol gun launched projectile. This GB1 LGB is semi-active guided, and along with it on the display platform are a laser target designation device and a laser targeting pod. _

KDR reported earlier that Xi&#8217;an Sicong Group has obtained one set of the Russian Krasnopol LGB laser seeker, and Russia has also transferred the technology of this laser seeker to China. Technical experts from Xi&#8217;an Sicong Group claim that before the technological transfer from Russia, they had developed a laser seeker similar to that of Krasnopol. This laser seeker can be used not only on guided projectiles, but also on other aviation bombs.

Sicong Group displayed the Chinese edition Krasnopol laser seeker at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show for less than one day before removing it from the exhibition platform, indicating that the Chinese military forces are now armed with this system. A source says that they not only hope to introduce the GB1 LGB onto the JF17 fighters of the Pakistan Air Force, but that the A5 attackers currently in service in Pakistan can also use this laser guided bomb. Nonetheless, a source from the Pakistan Air Force told KDR that they do not have plans to upgrade A5 attackers at the moment, as the lifespan of A5s is almost coming to an end.

The physical structure of this 500kg GB1 LGB is almost identical to that of LT-2 LGB, with the only difference in their guidance systems.

The Pakistan Air Force has already acquired the US-made GBU12 LGB, and Pakistan is also producing GBU12 laser seeker under technological license from the US. Some Western military observers have even claimed that China acquired the GBU12 laser guidance technology from Pakistan in the earlier years. The laser guidance technologies of LT-2 and GBU12 belong to the same generation. Under this circumstance, LT-2 will be in face of challenges in the Pakistani market from the indigenous GBU12.

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.ph...9179&page=3
(From PakDef)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Adux

dragonking786 said:


> You got alot of reading to do!
> 
> (Sorry for the one liner)



Adnan
I have been noticing that about you for a very long time, Lets start with Forex.


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## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Adnan
> I have been noticing that about you for a very long time, Lets start with Forex.



I updated the post again, always double check, espically for Indians "Reading".


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Stated on this Website is your cue to World of Truth my friend, That list of yours basically sums up the best radars in Europe, Wishlist.lol
> 
> RBE 2 is not an AESA, if I remember correctly, There is only one country with operational AESA as of right now. Others are in later or earlier stage of development



Sorry but the RBE2 has the ability to be upgraded with AESA modules as stated on the Thales website. The only issue is TOT which would raise the price. The Vixen radars are designed for platforms such as the JF-17 and are another that is being looked at. And have already been developed. This is a pretty much been discussed to death. on other forums and the people discussing it have a fair amount of insider knowledge. Go look around and then do your own research..........The "wish list" as you try to dismiss it... has a good likely hood of having some reality to it as there are several Western company's looking to bid for it.(As well as the 2 Chinese agencies)


(This came from a reliable source who has access to restricted info)

Looks like we'll get AESA at the same time then lol


http://www.selex-sas.com/datasheets/Vixen500E.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/defense/gb/publications/img/FoxThree1.pdf


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## zeus

i donot know much about Vixen radars ,Sea harriers in indian navy have to operate with Blue Fox radar but it has been replaced by much better Elta's 2032 radar Royal navy had offered some pre retired sea harriers to indian navy last year which had Blue Vixen radar but they were not keen to transfer it to india ,all existing radars can be upgraded to AESA ,Elta 2052 AESA was based on Elta's 2032 radar it self ,but important think it just because radar is AESA doesn't make it comparable to F-22 AN/APG-77 AESA radar ,The AESA is powered by hundreds of microchip radar emitters stacked together into a large array antenna.more the T/R modules better the radar F-22 AN/APG-77 radar is supposed to have 2800 TR,The TR module can be programmed to act as a transmitter, receiver, or radar.what Americans have is 4th generation AESA.closes AESA radar is of F-35 AN/APG-81 and Israeli Elta 2050 (around 2200 tr modules) ,Which radar Jf-17 is getting is not yet clear and speculating of AESA radar now ,people are too early for party here


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## Contrarian

Webby, in Pakistan's case it will have to keep the AWACS safe out of the border areas. Erieye will not fly near the border for the reason that they are very sucesptible to being shot down and there would be fear of an IAF attack. Its a very important asset which has to be protected at all costs. IAF has HUGE numerical superiority, it would be hard for the plane to operate in the border areas, unless some modicum of air superiority is achieved by PAF in Pakistan border areas.


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## Adux

zeus said:


> i donot know much about Vixen radars ,Sea harriers in indian navy have to operate with Blue Fox radar but it has been replaced by much better Elta's 2032 radar Royal navy had offered some pre retired sea harriers to indian navy last year which had Blue Vixen radar but they were not keen to transfer it to india ,all existing radars can be upgraded to AESA ,Elta 2052 AESA was based on Elta's 2032 radar it self ,but important think it just because radar is AESA doesn't make it comparable to F-22 AN/APG-77 AESA radar ,The AESA is powered by hundreds of microchip radar emitters stacked together into a large array antenna.more the T/R modules better the radar F-22 AN/APG-77 radar is supposed to have 2800 TR,The TR module can be programmed to act as a transmitter, receiver, or radar.what Americans have is 4th generation AESA.closes AESA radar is of F-35 AN/APG-81 and Israeli Elta 2050 (around 2200 tr modules) ,Which radar Jf-17 is getting is not yet clear and speculating of AESA radar now ,people are too early for party here



Thank you zeus, that was a very good post,
Isnt the APG-77 the only operational Radar now


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## Adux

dragonking786 said:


> I updated the post again, always double check, espically for Indians "Reading".



Where does it say AESA radar in it. For all you know it might be the Grifo 7 itself.


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## Adux

Keyser,

You are telling me the Chinese has Aircarft AESA radar.


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## zeus

Adux said:


> Thank you zeus, that was a very good post,
> Isnt the APG-77 the only operational Radar now




ya it is but there is one more operational AESA in F-16 block 60 which is used by United Arab Emirates air force it is a Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar ,not that great has F-22 Aesa but still a Aesa radar


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## Keysersoze

Part of a larger article will break it down over a few post to make it easier to digest. Link on last page.

India: LCA Tejas by 2010 - But Foreign Help Sought With Engine
Posted 17-Feb-2006 14:19

The Press Trust of India reports assurances that India's Light Combat Aircraft, in development since 1983, will finally see its System Design & Development (SDD) phase completed in 2010. Meanwhile, Rediff notes foreign assistance requests to help India's indigenous Kaveri engine project for that fighter recover from its development stall.

India's current fighter types are all undergoing modernization programs in order to maintain the fighter force until replacements can arrive. Meanwhile, an ongoing tender will likely see Russian, French, American, Swedish and European manufacturers dueling for a multi-billion dollar, 126-plane light-medium fighter sale. In this environment, the status of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project matters a great deal to the Air Force's future prospects - and its immediate procurement buys. The choices made will also affect the lightweight and relatively inexpensive fighter's export potential, which will feed back again into the overall program's costs and viability.


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## Keysersoze

LCA Tejas: India's Lightweight Fighter, or Just a Lightweight?

Within India's force structure, the LCA is largely expected to replace its 400 or so MiG-21 aircraft with a more versatile and capable performer who can outlast the 125 or so upgraded MiG-21 'Bisons' scheduled to remain in service until 2016. Performance is expected to be somewhat similar to a Mirage 2000 (which India flies) in terms of weapons, size, et. al., with lesser top speed but interior electronics that are fully up to date. Its price point is unknown at present, but the goal of an inexpensive fighter with performance that compares well to earlier model F-16s and Mirage 2000s could make this aircraft a capable export contender around the Third World.

Press Trust of India reports Bangalore-based Aeronautics Development Agency R K Ramanathan as promising the 2010 date, while noting that the LCA project had succeeded in not only cutting down the weight of the aircraft by 600 kg (now 12,000 kg), and bringing down the number of its components from over 30,000 to around 7,000. The cranked-delta LCA had already undertaken 485 test flights, and Ramanathan said that the LCA being produced indigenously would be suited both to India's security needs and climate.

On February 5, 2006, India Defence noted that even the Indian Navy may be interested in a naval version of the LCA. Designs have been produced with additional aerodynamic surfaces for improved aircraft carrier landing performance, nose droop for improved cockpit vision during landing approach, wing leading edge vortexes (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach, arrestor hook, a strengthened spine, a longer and stronger undercarriage and the nose wheel steering will be powered for deck manoeuvrability. Having said that, the quotes from Vice Admiral Sureesh Mehta revealed both interest and a clear "wait and see" attitude.


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## Keysersoze

Which may be the Tejas LCA's broader problem as well. On February 6, 2006, The Telegraph in Calcutta reported that:

"Though air headquarters has not said so in public, it is weighing whether it should commit funds because it is anticipating a resource crunch for the big ticket purchases of multi-role combat aircraft - that could cost the exchequer more than $5 billion over 10 years - and other equipment that it has projected as an immediate need."

The rumoured growth of the MRCA foreign fighter program to 170-200 aircraft, naval plans for 32 more ships in the next 10-15 years, and other planned capital purchases do indeed have the potential to sqeeze the Tejas. Senior officials have said since March 2005 that an INR 20 billion ($452.8 million at current conversion) order will be placed for 20 Tejas aircraft in 2006, with an similar purchase of another 20 aircraft to follow. All would be equipped with the GE F404 engine that powers current Tejas test aircraft.

Yet The Calcutta Telegraph notes that this purchase is still waiting on financial approval.

Just as confidence in the Tejas will influence India's choices in the MRCA buy of 120-200 foreign fighters, the MRCA will in turn influence influence the Tejas' future. The more MRCA aircrat bought at a flyaway price tag of $35 million or above, the more attractive the sub-$25 million Tejas looks to plus up numbers - as long as it can in fact produce to that cost level.

One of the key factors in this decision will be the Tejas' indigenous Kaveri engine.


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## Keysersoze

The Kaveri Engine: Keystone, or Killer?

One of the issues facing the program, however, is the fallout from India's drive to develop an indigenous "Kaveri" jet engine. As the Rediff's February 5, 2006 report notes:

"DRDO scientists had kept the development of the Kaveri engine under wraps, exuding confidence that India had developed the technological edge to develop its own aircraft engine, so far confined to handful of developed countries."

Some of the reasons for that are technical. Modern jet engines are far more complex than even Vietnam-era engines like the GE J79 that equipped the F-4 Phantom. Producing a working, reliable engine that can operate at these high pressures and thrust ratings is not easy. In addition, the Kaveri engine's requirements are being specifically designed for Indian environment. The engine is a variable cycle-flat-rated engine in which the thrust drop due to high ambient, forward speed is well compensated by the increased turbine entry temperature at the spool. This concept has been already demonstrated under high temperature and pressure conditions in DRDO's High Mach Facility. The engine is controlled by a Kaveri full authority digital control unit {KADECU), which DRDO claims to have developed and successfully demonstrated at its test bed.

Yet the complexities inherent in this challenge have forced India to bring in turbine experts from Snecma in France and from US firms like Pratt and Whitney to help clear major roadblocks. The Indian DRDO has also been forced to look for a technology partner, and has issued an RFP.

US industry sales officials like General William J Begert (USAF, ret.) of Pratt and Whitney are apparently telling India that they are prepared to help India make Kaveri work within a partnership framework, and so have Snecma executives like vice president international affairs Francois Courtot. No doubt this is true so long as appropriate payment is involved, and Gen. Begert is also reportedly discussing outsourcing of some PW F100 (F-16s, F-15s) engine parts to Indian firms. Meanwhile, General Electric was reportedly the slowest to respond to the RFP for foreign assistance.

This is surprising, because in order to avoid disturbing the program timeline and field the Tejas for testing and initial deployment, the test versions and the first two Tejas squadrons will be powered by General Electric's GE F404 engines. F404 family engines fly in a number of aircraft around the world including the JAS-39 Gripen 4th generation lightweight fighter, F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter, models A-D of the F/A-18 Hornet fighter aircraft in service with many air forces, South Korea's T/A-50 Golden Eagle supersonic trainer & light attack aircraft, and Singapore's soon to be retired A-4SU Super Skyhawk attack jets.

Overall, DRDO secretary M Natarajan says that while DRDO had agreed to go in for international collaboration to make their Kaveri engine work, the partners will have to work to India's terms. A committee in which IAF experts would be included would evaluate the bids to decide on "how much to take and from whom... But Kaveri is and would remain an Indian project... We have gone this way to shorten time for making the engine airborne, as we don't wont to delay the LCA induction schedule." He also referred to it as an effort to "add value and look for a partner to stand guarantee."


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## Keysersoze

As experts like Richard D. Fisher have noted, Chinese projects tend to quickly hand off significant components to others and confine the kinds of domestic expertise required. The J-10 has been an example, and the massive changes required when Israeli and Western cooperation ended have made the project incredibly challenging - but had the Chinese not outsourced major aspects like the engines to the Russians, the project would probably have failed completely.

The complexities inherent in designing a new fighter from scratch are formidable, even for a lightweight fighter like the Tejas. As Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (Retd) notes, India's industry had significant experience deficits going into this project, which have delayed the project significantly. All the more reason, then, to bring in foreign partners for components like the engine et. al. and minimize the complexities faced by India's indigenous teams in its state-run organizations.

Indeed, Sainis and Joseph's examination of the benefits to Indian industry fromthe LCA program shows that most benefits would have been retained had India taken this route.

That has not generally been the approach to date, however, and the insistence on pushing the envelope with a new fighter design and a new engine has had costs. India is taking on the development, testing, and debugging process for an entirely new jet engine, just to equip a couple hundred combat aircraft of its own design. Future delays remain possible even with expensive foreign cooperation, and every new jet engine type can expect teething issues when it is first installed. This may explain why even Sweden with their long history of indigenous fighter development chose the more trouble-free approach of adopting an already-proven engine, making minor modifications as required in conjunction with the manufacturer, then concentrating their design efforts elsewhere.

In India's case, these added complexities will also spill over onto the export front. While we've seen recently that US engines can create problems with sales to foreign countries due to US laws re: technology transfer approval, one wonders whether an "Indian" engine developed in partnership with US firms would be immune. At the same time, potential Tejas export customers will not have a common international engine like the GE F404/ F414 or Snecma M53 with debugged performance, a broad network of support, and leverage across multiple aircraft types. Instead, they will have to evaluate the Kaveri engine's prospects for future spares, upgrades and support, available contractors with relevant skills in maintaining them, et. al. when deciding on their buy. This tends to make potential buyers more cautious.

As the French have found with the Rafale, lack of exports for a limited production indigenous fighter equals rising maintenance and upgrade burdens that hit right in the budget, and make it that much harder for the design to keep up with contemporary threats over its lifetime. Will India's decision to proceed with the Kaveri engine offer short-term customization benefits at the expense of long-term pain?

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine/index.php


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## Keysersoze

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR - Volume 3(5) March-April 2001

Features.jpg (4975 bytes)

LCA and Economics

Sunil Sainis and George Joseph

In 1983 India set out to build its first modern fighter aircraft, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This was by all standards an ambitious plan, especially for a country, where numbing poverty casts a dark shadow and technology and industry lag far behind the world. In the early years of the Independent India these aspects had fueled intense debates over the needs of defense versus the needs of development. The resolution of these debates had first appeared in the slogan `Jai Jawan, Jai KisanÃ¢â¬â¢ (Victory to the Soldier, Victory to the Farmer) coined by the Late Prime Minister Shri. Lal Bahadur Shastri [1]. The idea was to create platforms for research and development that would both foster local industry and build a credible and reliable defense system for the nation. This basic notion was evolved considerably since the 1950 and several organizations have been created under the leadership of the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Though initially some projects failed to meet set targets, the Govt. of India never wavered in its support of the overall idea. A crucial area was combat aircraft technology, efforts in the 70Ã¢â¬â¢s had met some success but India was far from being self-reliant in this field. This field was perpetually in a state of intense flux, our traditional suppliers the Soviet Union seemed to lag technologically in certain areas and the cost of western platforms appeared prohibitive. These factors were the initial impetus behind the LCA project.

The project received support from then Air Chief Marshal Shri. Idris Hassan Latif, and the needs of the Indian Air Force for a light supersonic multi-role fighter were put down in the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) by 1985. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was set up under the Ministry of Defense (MoD) to act as the nodal body for the project. The LCA program has made an arduous journey from those humble beginnings to the flight of the LCA Technology Demonstrator (TD-1) made on January 4th 2000. As soon as its wheels lifted off the ground, the crowds were ecstatic, the scientists and the dignitaries were jubilant, and even scribes could not hold back their emotions.

The reason for their joy was understandable. The flight of the TD-1 was a full 5 years late. The delay had stemmed from the actually complexity of the project [2]. The institutions had overestimated their capability, and at times failed to fully utilize existing experience [3]. As most of the technology was first prototyped in the west, the project has called for a greater interaction with western aviation entities. This made the advanced project very vulnerable to international interference [4]. The enormous emphasis on indigenous development of several technologies added to the high project cost.

As it is natural in a democratic nation like India, the costly LCA program has undergone public scrutiny and criticism. Most of it focused intensely on the fact that the project has exceeded the original expectations of budgeting and timing. The sources of this criticism are primarily sections of the military [5,6],, journalists [7,8,9,10], and other eminent persons, both inside and outside the country [10,11,12,13]. The project has also come in for a scathing review from the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), Government of India (GoI) [14]. The CAG has recommended that after the flight of the TD-1, the GoI review the entire project and decide whether it wants to proceed with indigenous development or cancel the project and purchase an equivalent system from a foreign supplier.

At first sight it appeared as though the critics did have a sound platform on which they based their arguments. However on several forums (especially www.bharat-rakshak.com), there were questions raised about the validity of some of these arguments. So it was decided that the economics of the LCA should receive closer scrutiny in the next BR Monitor. The results of this exercise are presented in this article.

Basic Issues

It was imperative that we looked at the cost-effectiveness of the LCA program with the view of carrying out an economic analysis. For this we required some basic information: costs (both direct and indirect), a measure of the outcome in terms of effectiveness, benefit, utility or consequence and a comparator or a set of comparators with similar information.

The Comparators

The LCA is designed to replace the MiG-21 fleet of the IAF. The MiG-21 is used extensively in the IAF. Due to its rugged design and mass production it is the most produced fighter aircraft in aviation history and has seen action in many air forces all over the world [15]. The LCA is billed to be the worldÃ¢â¬â¢s smallest, lightweight, supersonic, multi-role, single-seat fighter designed to function as IAFÃ¢â¬â¢s frontline, multi-mission tactical aircraft. The term light can be misleading; the LCA will be able to deliver as much ordnance as the much larger MiG-27s.

The above description puts the LCA in a class that is much beyond the MiG-21 that its was meant to replace. The LCA would offer more utility than the MiG-27, as it is a multi-role fighter. In economic terms they are not really comparable products. Another problem with the Mig-21 or the MiG-27 is that they were designed and developed in the former USSR and it is very difficult to accurately establish development costs. Hence we could not examine the Mig-21 as a suitable comparator for the LCA program. This leads us to two other aircraft, which could serve as comparators: The F-16 Falcon and the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen.

The F-16 and the LCA

A comparison of the LCA (projected) and the F16C/D block 50+ shows the following similarities [Refer Table 1].

Table 1: Comparison between the F-16 and the LCA


LCA


F16C/D block 50+

Length


13.20m


15.03m

Height


4.40m


5.1m

Span


8.20m


10.0m

Max Speed


1700 Km/hr


Mach 2.05

Max Weight


8500 kg


17010kg

Ceiling


16400m


16750m

Range


840km


1000km

Armament


1 cannon & 7 hard points, ext load 4000 kg


1 cannon, 2 Sidewinders, ext load 4500 kg.

Engines


GEF404 F2J3, KAVERI GTX-35VS


P&W F100-PW-220

Control Systems


Quadruplex (Digital) FBW based on MIL STD 1553B Bus


Triplex DFCS with one Analog Backup on MIL STD 1553B Bus
Source: www.fighter-planes.com

From this seems plausible to say that the LCA should be comparable to the F16 C/D (Block 50+). Let us briefly look at F-16Ã¢â¬â¢s development cycle. In January 1972, the Lightweight Fighter Program solicited design specifications from several American manufacturers. The General Dynamics entry for this was the YF-16. It made its first test flight on February 2nd 1974 [17]. Subsequently the F-16A, a single-seat model first flew in December 1976. The first operational F-16A was delivered in January 1979 to the 388th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base, Utah [18]. The entire F-16 program reached operational status in seven years after inception. By contrast the LCA program started in 1985, the TD-1 rolled out in 1995 and finally flew for the first time in 2001. The service-entry dates can optimistically be expected to be 2007. The time line comparison between the F-16 and the LCA heavily favors the F-16.

The Saab JAS39 and the LCA

Let us also take a look at the Saab JAS39 Gripen [19], a light multi-role fighter developed by the Industrial Group JAS, consisting of Saab Military Aircraft, BAE Systems, Saab-BAe Gripen AB, Ericsson Saab Avionics, Ericsson Microwave Systems, Celsius Aerotech and Volvo Aero Corporation. A comparison of the LCA and the Gripen shows the following similarities.

Table 2: Comparison between the JAS39 and the LCA


LCA


JAS39 Gripen

Length


13.20m


14.10m

Height


4.40m


4.50m

Span


8.20m


8.40m

Max Speed


1700 Km/hr


1400Km/hr at sea level, Mach 2.0 at altitude

Max Weight


8500 kg


12474 Kg

Ceiling


16400m


15240m

Range


840km


3000Km (ferry range)

Armament


1 cannon & 7 hard points, ext load 4000 kg


One Mauser BK27 27mm cannon, 8 hard points, ext. load 4000 kg.

Engines


GEF404 F2J3, KAVERI GTX-35VS


Volvo Aero RM12 (developed from GEF404)

Control Systems


Quadruplex FBW based on MIL STD 1553B Bus


Triplex DFCS with Analog backup on MIL STD 1553B Bus
Source: www.fighter-planes.com

The Gripen program was conceived in studies in the conducted by the Swedish aerospace industry in 1978. The Swedish Government prompted in part by evaluations of the F-16 and F-18 by the Swedish Air Force and issues of economics approved the concept of a new light multi-role aircraft. Later in 1982 the Swedish Parliament voted to approve the project and the Defence Materiel Administration signed a contract for development of the JAS 39 Gripen. The first prototype flew in 1988 and the final flight tests were completed in December of 1996 [20]. By March 2000, approximately 85 aircraft have been delivered to the Swedish Air Force, and there is a possibility of sales to foreign countries [21]. Here too a comparison of the initial development time (up to prototype production) of the Gripen with the LCA, strongly favors the Gripen. One could easily conclude from these two examples that LCA R&D is of a poor quality and severely lags the world standard. The authors feel that such an argument is deceptive; it neglects the fine print here.

Firstly the F-16C/D (Block 50+) is a considerably evolved form of the YF-16 produced 24 years ago. While a good deal of this evolution was to expand on the original idea of a Light Weight Fighter to new roles and deployments, there were also several changes in the control system. The F16C/D that we see on the market today owes a fair bit to the work done between 1978 Ã¢â¬â1989 on the Advanced Fighter Technology Integration Program, which tested systems like Triplex Digital Flight Control System (3 digital control systems and 1 Analog backup) [22]. The LCA by comparison has begun with a Quadruplex DFCS (All four levels of control systems are digital) this is a considerable advance over the F16C/D. The Gripen for its part has also benefited from this research as it has though the consortium approach, sub-contracted development of several systems to participants of the advanced American programs like Lockheed Martin, Rockwell etc [23].

Secondly in designing the F-16, General Dynamics made use of advanced aerospace science and proven reliable systems from other aircraft [24]. The prototype version YF-16 used main landing gear tires from the B-58 Hustler [25], an emergency power unit from the Concorde, an ESCAPAC II ejection seat from the A-4, an air data probe [26] from the SR-71 Blackbird, and servo actuators from the F-111 Aardvark. The actuators in the leading edge flaps were rotary actuators from the F-111 bomb bay doors. The canopy design and the canopy latching system were based on the NASA X-24. Off-the-shelf equipment used in the FSD craft includes a head-up display modified from an A-7 Corsair, nose gear wheel and tire from the F-4, a signal data recorder from the A-10, an oxygen quantity indicator from an F-5E, and a nose wheel steering system from the T-39. The engine, of course, was a modified version of the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine used in the F-15. The same applies to the Gripen where a large number of subsystems were contracted to European and American systems companies [23] and unlike the LCA, Saab did not have to face sanctions.

Thirdly there was a large pool of experience present within the American workforce. The so-called `Fighter MafiaÃ¢â¬â¢ of John Boyd, Tom Christie, John Chuprun, Harry Hillaker, Chuck Meyers, Pierre Sprey, Everest Riccioni, and others championed Light Weight Fighter concept [27]. These veteran designers in 1971 pushed the Tactical Fighter Requirements Division of Air Force Headquarters to fund a study titled "Study to Validate Expanded Energy-Maneuverability Through Trade-Off Analysis". General Dynamics and Northrop conducted this work. Fueled by steady funding (about $150,000 total) and the good tradeoff data from the study, the lightweight fighter concept was ready in a very short time. The transition was accelerated by the Packard CommissionÃ¢â¬â¢s resurrection of prototyping to validate new aircraft and other military programs before they go into production. The Americans thus were able to combine these ideas to produce an airplane of reduced size and price [28]. We must also note that by the time the first generation F-16A rolled out the F-15 and F-111 were already flying and had seen action. Saab Military Aviation has produced a range of advanced fighters like the Saab Draken [29], a Mach 2.0 fighter built in the 1952 and the Saab Viggen [30] a multi-role fighter built in 1967.

When the LCA rolled out the only the other aircraft development effort in India was the aborted HF-24 Marut. The capabilities of the LCA and the Marut are so vastly different, that a fair number of components had to be completely redesigned for the LCA, this adds to the development time and cost. A key point here is that both the Americans and the Swedes drew upon a sea of expertise, technology and institutions that were built up much before the F-16 or the JAS39 came along. India has developed a fighter of similar configuration and the ancillary support and development institutions required to develop this fighter, all in a span of 20 years. This is quite an achievement. However given the cost of developing a complex instrument like a combat aircraft, one is almost tempted to simply buy a ready-made and proven platform from a trusted supplier. We examine the possibilities in this regard in the next section.

Comparison of costs of procurement

There exist several products in the market which seem to match or exceed LCA specifications, however not all of these are viable choices. The choices and the reasons for rejecting them are listed in the table below.

Table 3: Comparison of estimated costs of various aircraft

AIRCAFT


ESTIMATED COST


REASONS FOR REJECTING THEM

F-16 A/B/C/D


$ 30-35 Million with spares [31]


Deals are prone to sanctions [32].

MiG-29


$30 Million (spares extra) [33]


Poor quality control, unreliable suppliers for spares, and very low TBO on critical components like engines [34].

Saab JAS39 Gripen


$53 Million (spares) [35]


Too expensive to be bought in numbers.

Dassault Rafale


$55 Million (Spares extra) [35]


Too expensive to be bought in numbers.

Sukhoi Su-27/30/35


$40-45 Million[36]


TBO on critical components is low, and this is too expensive to be bought in numbers.

The Mirage 2000 and the LCA

The F-16 and the Gripen are both aircrafts that the IAF has no experience operating. The only other multi-role fighter that the IAF current has in its inventory is the Mirage 2000. So when looking for a comparator for the LCA we cannot ignore the Mirage 2000 as it a globally accepted multi-role fighter platform which also happens to be in the service of the IAF. The Mirage 2000C/D [37] is an advanced multi-role fighter that has its origins in the d'Avion de Combat du Futur (ACF) program run by the French Government in the mid 70s. The design has undergone considerable evolution and France, Egypt, Greece, India, Peru, Qatar, Taiwan, and the United Arab Emirates operate versions of it. The Indian Air Force has the Mirage 2000H, and by all accounts appears quite satisfied with itÃ¢â¬â¢s performance. This plane has also performed quite well in the Kargil Crisis. The exact specifications of the Mirage 2000H are shown below [38] [refer Table 2]. Though larger than the LCA it can perform all the tasks of the LCA.

Table 4: Capabilities of the Mirage 2000H

Design Features


Low-set thin delta wing with cambered section and cleared for 9g and 270/s roll at subsonic and supersonic speeds, there is extensive use of composite materials.

Avionics


IAF's Mirage 2000s are equipped with a multi-mode RDM pulse Doppler radar which allows multi-target selections at all altitudes with look down/shoot down operation and features HOTAS concepts. It is also fitted with an Antilope terrain-following radar for automatic flight, down to 61 meters. IAF Mirage 2000s are fitted with the Litening Laser Designation Pod for use with laser guided bombs.

Engine


One Snecma M53-P20 turbofan rated at 21,384 lbs. of maximum thrust.

Maximum Speed


Mach 2.2+

Service Ceiling


16,460 meters; 54,000 ft.

Maximum Range


With internal fuel - 1852 km; 1151 miles.
With 3000L drop tanks - 3333 km; 2071 miles

G Limits


+9/-4.5 - normal and +13.5/-9.0 - ultimate.

Armament


Has two internally-mounted 30mm guns with 125 rounds of ammunition. Nine external hard points can carry AAM like the Super 530D and the Magic-II and air-to-surface missiles like the AS-30L & the Matra ARMAT and a variety of other guided & un-guided ordnance. Can also carry a tactical nuclear payload.

External Load


6300 kg; 13,890 lbs

Self Defense


An automated ICMS Mk.2 with receiver/processor in the nose to detect missile command links; an extra pair of antennae near top of the fin and additional DF antennae scabbed to the existing wingtip pods

The IAF has ordered 18 Mirage 2000C/Ds [39] so as to make up attrition losses and expand ground attack capability. This aircraft is should not be confused with the Dassault Mirage 2000-5 (projected as a 5th generation multi-role fighter estimated to be around $55 Million [40]). The cost of a Mirage 2000C/D is estimated to be about $ 25-30 Million [41], and the cost of upgrading from this to the Mirage 2000-5 is about $5-10 Million [42]. The Mirage 2000-5 does not meet our cost requirements.

The present sets of aircraft were purchased in 1982 and the details of this deal are displayed below [43].

Table 5: Mirage 2000 deal (1982)

Payment for retention for option to license manufacture:


Rs 3.92 Cr.

Contract for procurement of the aircraft: (Integration and operational clearance of a variety of weapons but not the supply of these weapons.)


Rs 621.75 Cr.

Replacement of existing aircraft radars was recommended in 1980. Tropical trials conducted in 1986 had also revealed high rate of failures of the radars. The modification of the radars and electronic warfare system (EWS) was completed only in January 1993.


Rs 62.09 Cr.

While the aircraft was inducted in 1985, the facilities for its repair completed by 1996 and till then the aircraft were sent to the manufacturers abroad for repair.


Rs 67.62 Cr

Setting up of repair facilities for the airframe and its accessories at the PSU instead of at the Air Force Depot would result in extra expenditure:


Rs 73.78 Cr.

This would inflate the cost of overhaul and entail extra financial burden of on the Air Force on the overhaul of aircraft during its life cycle:


Rs 197.80 Cr.

The weapon system imported:


Rs 11.15 Cr.

Total so far for 40 aircraft


Rs. 966.33 Cr. ($1.0291 Billion US in 1982 and 1.838 Billion in 2000, thatÃ¢â¬â¢s $45.95 M apiece in 2000)

Bearing in mind the fact that most of this Rs. 966.33 was in FE (Foreign Exchange) and that there is little involvement of local industry in this project, every spare part is imported and is subject to the vagaries of the supplier and of FE reserves. It also seems plausible that Dassault Aviation would sell us a few Mirage 2000Ã¢â¬â¢s now but would in time coax us into buying the costly 2000-5 or quite possibly super-costly Rafale. This is the path that other Dassault customers like Greece and UAE have been led down. Another large deal with Dassault would definitely involve making considerable commitments of foreign exchange. Thus in addition to not benefiting local industry and economy in a direct way, the deal would actually lead to fall in our foreign currency reserves. So every time one of these pricelessly expensive planes crashes, in addition to a possible personal disaster, we will also have a minor fiscal calamity.

Having thus put the development cycle of the LCA in perspective and viewed the costs of purchase and operation of comparator platforms, we now proceed to look more closely at the costs of the LCA development program.

Cost of the LCA Development Program

Today the LCA program has cost India a sum of approximately Rs. 2188 Cr. The project has taken the better part of two decades. Project outlays so far and a look at major areas of investment [44] are summarized in the tables below.

Header


Estimated Cost


Foreign Exchange Component

LCA costs as per feasibility study in May 1985


Rs 750 Cr.


N/A

Phase-I of Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) includes design, construction and flight test of two Technology Demonstrator aircraft (TDI,TD2) construction of a Structural Test Specimen construction of two Prototype Vehicles (PVI &2); creation of infrastructure and test facilities. commenced in April 1990 approved Cabinet Committee on Parliamentary Affairs (CCPA) 1993


Rs 2188 Cr.(1991 prices)


Rs 873 Cr.

Phase-II of FSED estimates including construction of three more PV '5, the last PV5 (trainer); construction of a Fatigue Test Specimen; creation of facilities at various work centres. (Not yet approved by CCPA)


Rs.2340 Cr.


N/A



Table 6: Subsystem cost estimates


Estimated Cost in Cr. Rupees


Revised Cost in Cr. Rupees
Major subsystems 

Total


FE component


Total


FE component

Radar system


62.27


35.37


100.05


69.65

Flight control sys.


57.80


42.82


160.00


118.32

Indigenous Engines


382.81


155.39


760.00


365.03

Engine control sys.


8.96


5.19


17.74


12.11

A brief overview of the Capital Outlay on the LCA up to March 31, 1999 as per the ADA Annual Report 1998-1999 [47] shows the following headers and funds allocated.

Header


Funds allocated (Rs)

Project Definition Activities.


89 Cr.

Infrastructure Buildup (Buildings, computers, Office and Engineering Design Equipment, Vehicles, Communications, Plant Machinery)


157 Cr

Aircraft Design and Integration (Software tool development, Simulators, Cockpit evaluation facility and engineering costs)


150 Cr.

Prototyping Activity (Tools, Test Equipment, CFC Components, Aircraft Materials, Aircraft Fabrication,


244 Cr.

General Systems (JFS, PTO shaft, AMAGB, Fuel Oxygen Monitoring Systems etcÃ¢â¬Â¦)


101 Cr.

Flight Control System


135 Cr.

GE Engines


108 Cr.

Avionics: (Cockpit Instrumentation (HUD, MFD, Display Processor, Control Panels), Mission Computer, Ring Laser GYRO, ASTRA PDP, MPRU, CCU, FDR, MMR, Communications, Electrical, etcÃ¢â¬Â¦)


57.5 Cr.

Ground Testing (low Speed, High Speed etcÃ¢â¬Â¦)


112 Cr.

Flight Testing


29 Cr

Training Consultancy and Technical Assistance


36 Cr.

Technology Development (Design Analysis, General Systems, Composites, Avionics Display, Production Technology, Actuators)


75 Cr.

Product Support (Ground Support Equipment)


4 Cr.

Addl. PV 1 & PV 2.


35 Cr.

Balance stage payments to other work facilities, and Engg. Change Order etcÃ¢â¬Â¦


82 Cr.

Sub Total


1598 Cr.

The figure of Rs. 1598 Cr. represents the money spent so far by the LCA project (till 1999). This contrasts with the estimated FSED allocation of Rs. 2188 Cr. The unit flyaway cost of LCA assessed as Rs 10.30 Cr. in 1985, is now estimated to cost between Rs. 85 Cr [44]..

The effectiveness of the LCA

So far we have covered a majority of the cost issues related with the LCA and the unit cost of the comparators. In order to compute a cost-effectiveness ratio we require an effectiveness denominator for the analysis. We need a set of performance related criteria to compare both the LCA and the comparator. Here it is prudent to consider what has already been published in open literature about various combat aircrafts. Yefim Gordon has compared the Mig-29 Fulcrum series to the F-16 Block 50+ series.

As per the methodology followed by Yefim Gordon to compare various versions of Mig-29 and the F-16 in [Table 1], a comparison of the two platforms would involve looking at the following quantities.

1. Thrust to weight ratio: at combat (1000m and Mach 1. with full internal fuel load) and at takeoff.
2. Rate of Climb at 1000m and Mach 0.9 at full internal fuel load.
3. Maximum turn rate at 3000m with 50% fuel.
4. Specific Wing loading at takeoff.
5. G limits.
6. Acceleration from 600 to 1000 Km/hr at 1000m.
7. Fire control radar performance data including weight, volume, scanner diameter, mean radiation power, aerial target detection range (in open airspace, in look-down-shoot-down mode-forward hemisphere, in look-down-shoot-down mode-rear hemisphere) against a selected target.
8. Weapons control systems data including Fire control radar performance in terms of number of targets tracked, number of targets attacked simultaneously, scanning in azimuth, surface ship (of a selected radar cross-section) detection and Optoelectronic targeting system in terms of Aerial Target detection range (head-on mode and pursuit mode), laser rangefinder, use in strike mode, active ECM.
9. Armament packages.
10. Maximum air-to-air missile ranges.

These above mentioned figures can be used to define an arbitrarily scaled quantity called the Combat Efficiency Quotient. We then establish the following quotients

1. Combat Efficiency Quotient in Intercept mode: includes data from the weapons control system and mission avionics, speed in intercept more and the weapons carried, combat radius etcÃ¢â¬Â¦.
2. Combat Efficiency Quotient in Dogfight mode: includes data from the weapons control system and mission avionics esp. ESM suite and acceleration, combat radius etcÃ¢â¬Â¦
3. Combat Efficiency Quotient in Strike mode: includes data from the weapons control system and mission avionics, Maximum Take-Off Weight (MTOW), air-air refueling capability, low level penetration mode performance.

These three can be combined to give a Combined Combat Efficiency Quotient for air-air and strike modes.

The Reliability and Serviceability Parameters like Operational Readiness Quotient, Specific Maintenance labor Intensity (man-hours per flight), MTBF (Minimum Time Between Flights), Airframe Life and Relative cost, enables us to produce an overall cost-effectiveness figure for each airplane. Hence, it is possible to compare the LCA with the F-16, Gripen and the Mirage 2000, but it is too early for such comparisons to be made as the LCA is still in the TD-1 stage.

Additional facets to the effectiveness denominator

The LCA is designed to have several features specifically tailored to IAF requirements. The LCA Jet-Fuel Starter (JFS) has been successfully tested at an altitude of 6.4 Km; this enables the LCA to operate from such high airfields like Leh [48]. It must be noted here that though the Mirage 2000 flew several successful sorties during the Kargil Conflict, it does not have the ability to operate from airfields at such high altitudes. Save the less sophisticated Mig-21 and Mig-23, no other aircraft is said to meet these requirements. The LCA Environment Control System (LCA) is designed to operate in tropical conditions, this will improve pilot comfort [66]. Hence when comparing the effectiveness of the LCA with its comparator these additional factors would have to be considered too.

Given that it is impossible to calculate the effectiveness denominator at the present time and therefore not possible to carry out a cost-effectiveness analysis. A discussion of the economics of the LCA must now focus on the output of the project to date. In the next section we discuss the achievements of the project thus far, we look at issues of project management, technology development and private participation.

Project Management Setup

At the time of the inception of the project it was felt this effort would draw immensely on expertise present in several different institutions present all over the country. Thus an emphasis was placed on a team approach to problems, and although ADA was the nodal agency, it worked in close coordination with several other agencies. To ensure cooperation between various departments at a high level and good oversight on the project, the ADA has a General Body and a Governing Body. The General Body of ADA comprises:

* President: Raksha Mantri : (RM) (Defense Minister)
* Vice President: Vitta Mantri (Finance Minister)
* Members: Min. of State for Defense, SA to RM/Sec. DOD R&D/DG-ADA, Chief Air Staff, Sec. Def. Prod & Supp., Sec. MoD, Sec. Def. Fin. & FA, Sec. Finance, Sec. Dept. of Space, Sec. Expenditure, Dir. NAL, Chair. HAL.
* The Permanent Invitees are: Project Director (Admin.) ADA (He functions as the Secretary ADA), LCA Program Director, Financial Advisor to DG-ADA, Managing Director HAL.

The Governing body of ADA handles more detailed organization involving the various secretaries of the concerned departments. It meets somewhat more frequently than the General Body. The Governing Body consists of:

* Chairman: SA to RM/Secy. DOD R&D/DG-ADA,
* Co-Chairman: Chairman HAL.
* Members: Sec. MoD, Sec. Finance, Sec. Def. Prod. & Supplies, Chief Air Staff, Sec. Expenditure, Sec. Def. Fin. & FA.
* The Permanent Invitees are: Project Director (Admin.) ADA (He functions as the Secretary ADA), Dy. Chief Air Staff, LCA Program Director, Financial Advisor to DG-ADA, Managing Director HAL.

The Technical committee of ADA is responsible for advising the Governing Body on scientific issues. The Chairman HAL is the head of the Technical Committee.

The Project Directors manage the day-to-day affairs of various subprojects. They also meet on a weekly basis on the Program Coordination Committee of ADA to discuss and sort out coordination problems. The LCA Program Director heads this body. In order to ensure that the resources existing in different institutions can be brought to bear effectively on special issues; the ADA operates a number of National Teams. This novel approach has been successfully applied to address issues relating to the Flight Control Law (NAL, ADA, CAIR, HAL, IAF), Carbon Composite Wing (NAL, HAL, ADA), Flight Testing (NTFC), foreign contracts for feasibility studies, and to overcome the adverse effects of sanctions.

Various R&D labs attached to the DRDO, DOE, DAE, CSIR, IITs, IISC, PSU R&D, and ISRO also receive guidance from the ADA. HAL, ADE and ADA interact with public sector and private sector industry also. They design complicated parts and get them manufactured by Indian industries.

Govt. of India certification bodies like Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA), and the Center for Reliability (MIT STQC Directorate) etcÃ¢â¬Â¦ monitor product quality and award aerospace/military grade certifications to successful projects.

In addition to project management ADA activities briefly revolve around the following core areas [48]:

1. Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics
2. Airframe including Carbon Fiber Composite {CFC) Wing and Fin
3. Propulsion System
4. Mechanical General Systems
5. Flight Control System
6. Avionics and Electrical Systems
7. Quality Assurance and System Effectiveness
8. Ground and Flight Testing

A detailed list of the persons involved in the LCA project may be obtained from the ADA Website or from reference [34].

A diagram of the various bodies involved in the LCA project is shown below:





Figure 1: Representation of LCA Team

Technologies developed and Spin offs

The LCA project has resulted in the indigenous development of a vast number of technologies. There are major advances in all the major ADA sectors. The advances are briefly presented in a table below [48,51,52,54,55,62,63,66]:

Area of R&D


Outline of advances made in the field

Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics


CFD codes, various aspects of wind tunnel testing, development of Control Law, and control law simulation and testing facility, use of supercomputer to attack various aerodynamics issues, Finite Element Method codes, Aero Elasticity Studies.

Airframe including Carbon Fiber Composite {CFC) Wing and Fin


Precision machining of special metals like Titanium (challenging), Aluminum, Composites manufacture and machining, Carbon Disc brakes.

Propulsion System


Engine Design work at GTRE, design and manufacture of very high reliability sub-components like fan-blades, casings etc, for the Kaveri, JFS, Hydro-mechanical parts, Engine Control Unit, Nozzle Control Unit [51].

Mechanical General Systems and Manufacturing.


Landing gear, Brake Systems, AMAGB, Brake Parachutes , CAD-CAM software, Environmental Control Systems, Application software for Distributed Numerical Control, software to improve control over CNC instruments.

Flight Control System


Control Software, Iron Bird testing facility, Mini Bird, Cockpit Controls, Actuators and other components of Digital Flight Control System and computer [52].

Avionics and Electrical Systems


Design of Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), LCD, Antennae, Testing facilities like DAIR, Communication Equipment, Control and Coding Unit, IFF, Various cockpit systems and simulators, Mission Computer, Lightning test facility, Multi-Mode Radar.

Quality Assurance and System Effectiveness


Several quality assurance programs like Failure Mode Effect and Criticality analysis, Fault Tree Analysis, `Walk through check listsÃ¢â¬â¢ etcÃ¢â¬Â¦ were implemented [53]. Software like C-SCAN was developed to deal with QC issues in composites [54], Software Test Plan based on DOD standard.

Ground and Flight Testing


Flight test facility and equipment, testing during ground run, fast and slow speed tests,

The detailed list of technologies developed and their applications may be found in the Appendix I.

Private Sector Participation

The LCA project has managed to secure considerable amounts of participation from the private sector. This participation falls into three broad areas; manufacturing of pre-designed components (moulds, tools, jigs, etcÃ¢â¬Â¦)[56] and special purpose tools [57], software development [58] and advanced machining products (aerospace grade Line Replaceable Units (LRU))[59].

Some of these companies existed before the LCA project but a fair number are new. Almost all of these companies have had to expand their capabilities and take on serious financial liabilities because of the LCA project. A large number (approximately 300) of small and medium-scale units are involved in mechanical production. These units are heavily invested in the LCA project as it stands today and will suffer enormous hardships if the project is summarily cancelled. Many of these companies are in a position to exploit spin-off technologies and will at the very least be able to assert a presence in the aerospace market.

The software companies have been able to combine their participation in the LCA to enter into very high-end markets like embedded systems, ultra-stable code development, and computational fluid dynamics calculations. Some software companies have used their LCA experience to build up manpower and then moved into more lucrative businesses like e-commerce. This has added to growing presence of Indian companies in the world software market.

Small and Medium-scale manufacturing units have been able to upgrade manufacturing setups so as to meet the requirements imposed by certifying bodies such as DGAQA and CEMILAC. This has spawned ancillary industry as some of these companies outsource their initial requirements and focus on meeting aerospace tolerances and quality guidelines. This has provided employment for highly skilled craftsmen. We present a list of private companies involved in the LCA project in Appendix II.

Limitations

It has to be noted that this article draws data from various public sources of information. It represents an open literature analysis of what is known thus far about the LCA program and its comparators. While the real costs of development, ownership and operating such platforms are very important in economic analysis, it must be noted that such data is very difficult to come by. Additionally, it was observed that the utility of the various platforms could only be gauged with time. Hence it is provides an inkling about the benchmarks that the LCA needs to meet in order to prove its effectiveness over its life cycle.

Conclusions

The LCA project represents a considerable investment in advanced infrastructure relating to the crucial aviation industry. Subsequent to the flight of the TD-1, at least some of the R&D effort supported by this investment has met with visible success. A large portion of the investment so far has gone into development of a base of research and academic institutions vital to foster a sustained presence in this in this field.

At the present time it is possible to estimate the unit cost of the LCA and the measures of effectiveness for evaluating multi-role aircraft. However the absence of a production version of the LCA precludes the possibility of a computation of cost-effectiveness quotients. Critics of the project must accept the fact that our specific requirements on cost and performance are not met by platforms currently available on the market and that superficial comparisons of effectiveness of the LCA with other `international standardsÃ¢â¬â¢ are utterly meaningless at the present time. These factors increase the need to encourage and sustain the development of platforms specifically designed to perform in the Indian context. In the LCA project Indian R&D institutions and manufacturers have once more demonstrated their ability to overcome the initial lack of a technological base. This feat merits the highest commendation.

It is also important to take note of the growth fostered in certain industrial sectors. This is a very positive in economic terms as it moves us one step closer to improving the competitiveness of our industry and moreover reduces the impact of defense purchases on foreign exchange reserves. If the manufacturers are indeed able to exploit spin-offs and affect a stronger showing in the aviation market, then we could see real long-term prosperity in certain parts of India. The authors also recommend that stronger measures be taken at the earliest possible to transfer more technology to industry and specific economic incentives be offered to private sector companies to participate in the LCA project. Even if the LCA does exceed the present estimated unit cost, the funds will end up being dispersed within the country and will boost local industry.

At this stage in the project several critical subsystems are poised to reach completion. This is a reason to continue funding the project. If a decision is made to curtail project funding now, a fair bit of the progress to date will be lost as talented manpower will leave the company and several private companies involved in the project will suffer enormous losses [4].

Given the complexity of the LCA platform and the fact that this is a first attempt, it is also likely that there may be a few setbacks in the months to come. This is quite common with such projects. The authors feel that these setbacks should be faced with courage and every effort to realize the full potential of the LCA must be strongly supported.



Appendix I: Technologies developed and Spin offs

Next we briefly profile the technologies developed for this project, the agency, and the possible spin-offs (we apologize for any that we may have missed).

AGENCY


IMMEDIATE APPLICATION TO PROJECT


SPIN-OFFS AND/OR MARKET POTENTIAL

ADA: Aeronautical Development Agency: Computer Aided Design [62]


Autolay Software: used to design LCA.


ADA had tied up with Computervision, the largest CAD/CAM company in the world, for marketing Autolay, following which the Airbus Industrie had evinced a keen interest in the product

ADA: Aircraft Systems Maintenance Simulator [63]

Designed in collaboration with IIT Bombay and Tata Consulting.


Simulator for LCA maintenance.


A Maintenance simulator was designed for Mig 29 a/c. This was used to train IAF and Royal Malaysian AF personnel in India.

ADA: Flow Simulation


The CFD group uses a suite of CFD software developed in Indian institutions under projects
sponsored by ADA or developed in-house. Present capability is a simulation of transonic
flight of LCA with stores.


CFD has very broad applications. The transonic field integral method can be used for highly complicated geometry with moderate computing resources.

ADA [64]: GITA


Graphical Interactive Three dimensional Analysis software, LCA Design.


Technology Associates Inc of US and Boeing use it for CAD\CAM application

ADA [65]: Prana


Virtual Reality software for CAD applications. A prototype can now be readied through virtual reality in nearly half the time it takes for a physical prototype. VR technology would be used for the first time in the Indian aircraft industry for the LCA.


This software can be used in the automobile, shipbuilding and aero industries. ADA is on the lookout for a marketing tie-up. Many DRDO labs and corporate groups such as TVS and Mahindra and Mahindra have already expressed interest in it.

ADA


Design of LRU for Hydraulic, Fuel and Environmental Control Systems. Actual Manufacture is outsourced. C-SPAN implementation for detecting flaws in Composites with cooperation of CAIR and VIVASONICS.


The local manufacturers have been able to build up confidence in producing aviation grade components

ADE: Aeronautical Development Establishment (DRDO)[62]


Engineering Test Station for integration of hardware and software of DFCS


ADE (DRDO) [62]


Dynamic Avionics Integration Rig: to test LCA avionics


ADE (DRDO) [62]


Indigenous Real Time Simulator for testing LCA Control Law (CLAW)


ADE (DRDO) [63]


Bread board model of Display Processor


ADRDE (DRDO) [66]


Brake Parachute and Spin Parachute. Tested at IISC and Terminal Ballistic Research Lab (TBRL)


Parachute imports for some platforms are of a low quality, this could find application there.

ASEIO (DRDO)


EW equipment, Mission Computer, Standby UHF link.


ARDE (DRDO) [67]


Ejection system for LCA, this includes a combination of ejection seat and canopy release system.


This product has been tested and certified by the Martin Baker Corp. of UK. This system can be re-used on any subsequent platform.

BARC: Bhabha Atomic Research Center: Computer Division[68]


ANUPAM-860/16 Node parallel processor, used for CFD work related to LCA engine intakes


Other versions of ANUPAM/16 Node (ex. ANUPAM-Pentium/16) are under development. This is a significant contribution to evolving field of Parallel Processing applications.

BEL Bangalore


LCDs, Populated PCBs of the Flight Control Computer. This unit played a crucial role in overcoming the setbacks of the sanctions.


BHPV Bharat Heavy Plates & Vessels Ltd. Vizag:


Heat Exchanger for environmental unit.


BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. Corporate R&D,


Pump Motor for Radar Cooling


BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd, MHD Centre Trichy


ECS test facility


BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. Ramachandrapuram, Hyderabad


Brake Dynamometer


CAIR: Center for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics: Control Systems Group [69]


Part of National Flight Control Law Team, work relates to control systems


CAIR: Robotics Group [69]


Gantry robot and supplied it to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for LCA wing inspection


CDAC


LCA simulators


Central Electro Chemical Research Institute, Karaikudi


Development of Cd. plating for maraging steel (Grade-250)


Central Institute of Tool Design, Hyderabad


Tooling and machining of precision parts


COMPROC: Composite Production Center (DRDO)


Composites for LCA


Composites for other defense applications.

CSIO(CSIR)


Heads Up Display for LCA


CMTI bangalore.


Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery. Testing of Filter Elements and Development of Filter test rigs


CVRDE: Central Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (DRDO) [62]


AMAGB: Aircraft Mounted Accessories Gear Box


CVRDE: [62]


Hydraulic Filters designed by ADA.


DEBEL (DRDO):


PilotÃ¢â¬â¢s personal systems, onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS).


DRDL (DRDO):


Radome for MMR, Carbon Brake discs for LCA, Control and Coding Unit (CCU). The MMR Radome required indigenous production of Kevlar Socks and Low loss polyester resin.


DEAL (DRDO)


Communication Radio and Data link.


DMRL (DRDO):


Rotor and starter casting for Jet Fuel Starter, Heat exchangers for environmental unit.


DLRL (DRDO)


EW equipment


DSIC


Digital Engine Control Unit


Used with GEF404 now, but will eventually end up being used with GTX-35VS.

ER&DC


LCA simulators


ERDL


Canopy Severance System [70]


ECIL Hyderbad


Materials for LCA


Government Tool Room & Training Centre, Bangalore & Mysore


Machining & Assembly of Precision Valves


GTRE Bangalore:


Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS) and testing of sub-systems like ECS, FADEC etcÃ¢â¬Â¦


This technology will spawn other engine designs.

HAL: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hyderabad)


Integrated Communication Equipment (INCOM), MMR, Electronic Controllers, IFF Transponder, Audio Management Unit, Radio Altimeter, Utility Management System


Various items can be installed on other platforms.

HAL Lucknow Division (LD)






Wheels and Brakes, Hydraulics LRUs, Environmental LRUs, Fuel Gauging Probes, U/C Actuator Jacks, FADEC & KADECS Hydromechanical units for engine control, Engine Nozzle Control system, Electronic Control of ECS and Fuel Monitoring, Airbrake Actuator, Utility Management System, Electrical LRUs AC Master Box, DC Master Box, Static Inverter and Rectifying Unit, Ground Power Protection Unit, Design of LRU for Cold Air Unit, Accumulators, operating jacks.


HAL-Korwa:


Crash Data recorder


HAL-Engine Design Bureau:


Jet Fuel Starter for the LCA. This device is crucial to deciding the environments where the LCA is deployed. It has been tested at high altitudes to ensure operation in places like Leh AFB.


HAL-Nasik (this is Mig 21 building factory)


Standard Parts


HAL-Aircraft Design Bureau (ADB)


Microprocessor controlled Brake Management System, Canopy and bubble.


HAL-ADB has produced this for other aircraft like the Airbus A300.

HAL-ADB


1200 L Drop Tank for LCA, these were tested for resistance to small arms at TBRL


HAL-ADB


Dynamometer Test Rig for testing the Brake Management System


This can be used to test BMS for other platforms as well

HERL (DRDO)


Miniature Detonation cord for LCA canopy ejection.


Hindustan Springs, Mysore Springs


Hydraulic & Fuel System LRUs


HMT, Bangalore


Nose Box assembly jig.


HVF Avadi,


Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.


IICT Indian Institute of Chemical Technology


Development of Low Loss Polyester resin for MMR matrix material.


IISc Indian Institute of Science


Lightning Test Facility, Explosive Atmosphere Testing, and consultancy on a host of other projects.


IIT: Indian Institutes of technology


Involved in consultancy in several project relating to software development, aerodynamics design etcÃ¢â¬Â¦


IPCL Baroda


Materials for LCA manufacture.


Kerala High Tech


Radar Cooling system, Valves for OBOGS (Check Valves, Solenoid Valves and Temperature Control Valves)


LEOS(ISRO) Lab for Electro Optic System


Tri-axial miniature Magnetometer


LRDE: Electronics Research and Development Establishment (DRDO) [62]


Avionics for LCA. Video Switching Unit (VSU), Centralized Warning Panel (CWP), and Ground Checkout System (GCS) [71].


These are systems used in almost all modern day a/c. The GCS offers an extremely convenient way of evaluating the DFCS and other LRUs from a mobile trolley.

LRDE (DRDO)


Antenna and processor for MMR


MIDHANI Hyderabad


Materials for LCA (ferrous and non ferrous alloys).


MTRDC(DRDO)


TWT for MMR


NAL: National Aeronautics Laboratory: Systems Analysis Group: Dr. A. Pedar [69].


Ada software used to design LCA, efforts have focused on identifying the most reliable software subset.


Software can be used on other design codes as well once reliability is known.

NAL: Composites Materials Division, part of CFC National Team [62].


Composites and technology of co-bonded and co-cured construction for LCA wing, and rudder/fin.


Applications to other a/c also exist ex. SARAS under development at NAL is a full a/c made fully of CFC.

NAL: Flow Simulation (Dr Anand Kumar) [72]


Software developed to examine vortex formation at tip of delta wing. A fair amount of simulation has taken place on the NAL FLOSOLVER and the SUPERSOLVER (collaboration with Tata-Elxsi); indigenous parallel computers built in Bangalore with available components. This machine has evolved in the project started in 1986 on the
development of indigenous parallel high performance computer


This work has found application in a study on modeling and simulation of aircraft wake carried out by NAL under a project awarded by the Civil Aviation Authority of UK on the basis of a global tender. The software developed at NAL is designed to enhance the capacity of busy civilian airports by simulating realistically the wake vortices of the leading aircraft; which could have adverse effect on the following aircraft.

NAL & BHEL(Tiruchi)

NALTECH (Commercial Promotions of NAL technology) [73]


Largest computer controlled Autoclave facility measuring 4 m diameter x 8 m length, and costing around Rs. 7 Crores has been custom built for the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), to cure composites.


Applications exist for other CFC bonding and manufacturing areas. NALTECH perceives applications in other areas of autoclave technology.

NAL [64]


Parallel Processing codes developed for various applications in LCA design


Molecular Dynamics code was parallelized and sold to Hitachi.

NAL


FEPACK: Analysis of Structures in LCA


Sold to domestic companies.

NAL


NTAF (National Transonic Aerodynamic Facility) used for LCA design.


Applications exist for other strategic projects.

NAL[74]


Carbon fibre Epoxy Prepregs: popular Ã¢â¬Ëbuilding blocksÃ¢â¬â¢ in composite product development. NAL, with support from TIFAC and ADA has developed aerospace grade carbon fibre prepregs


Technology has been transferred to IPCL Vadodara.

NAL


AAVRITA a Comprehensive Fortran Software Package Ã¢â¬ËAAVRITAÃ¢â¬â¢, for the electromagnetic (EM) design and analysis of radomes.


Radar design applications such as MMR.

NFC Hyderabad


Materials for LCA.


Ordinance Factory- Medak


Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.


OF Ambhazhari,


Al-Alloy-L77 for LCA extrusions


This removes the need to import Al-Cu alloys.

PSG College Coimbatore


Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.


RCI Hyderabad


CCU, actuators


SAMEER (DOE)


Antenna for communication equipment.


VSSC(ISRO) Trivandrum:


Actuator of Flight Control System




Appendix II: List of Private Companies, their immediate contributions and the possible spin-offs.

We have tried to present immediate contributions and possible spin-offs based on various sources. This is by no means an exhaustive list and we apologize for any mistakes.

COMPANY (ADDRESS)


IMMEDIATE CONTRIBUTION TO PROJECT


SPIN-OFFS AND/OR MARKET POTENTIAL

Ailga Rubber Works, Nagpur


Bought out items


Ajay Sensors & Instruments, Bangalore


Design and fabrication of manual control unit for ECS test battery


ASML, Bangalore


Simulator/Simulation.


Accord S/W & Systems, Bangalore


S/W


BALCO


Aluminum extrusions.


Bangalore Rubber Industries, Bangalore


Rubber Seals for Liquid Colling System of Radar


BASHI Aerospace, Hyderabad


LRUs and composite drop tanks.


Bashi has indigenously manufactured various items from valves to pilot static test rigs and they also make ground-testing equipment of components and aircraft parts.

Bhaskara Dynamiks, Bangalore


Attitude test rig for AMAGB


Compupatterns


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


CSM Software, Bangalore


Component analysis, failure mode analysis


This company also supplies to other defense projects. Defense and Aerospace are a large portion (~40%) of the companies assets [75].

Data Patterns, Chennai,


Testing of LCA avionics subsystems.


Company has potential applications in other projects Jaguar, MiG, ALH, PSLV and GSLV [75].

DCM Data Products, Delhi


S/W development


Eastern Engineering Company


Special Purpose Machine Tools


This company has a large product list, more information may be found at their website http://www.eastern-engineering.com/mfg.htm.

Firth India, Nagpur


Materials


Gururaja Engineering Works


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


High Energy Systems, Trichy


(NiCd battery)


Horseman India, Pune


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Hyderabad Orthographic Engg


Electroselctros/Relief Valve,


INDAL.


Materials


Indfos Industries Ltd, New Delhi


Development of Hydro-mobile trolley for Ground Testing


India Machine Tools


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


JAI Sales Corportion, Bangalore


DC Power transient simulator, Universal test system


Janapriya Tools, Hyderabad


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


JINDAL


Materials extrusions for Al-Cu parts


JS lamps, Faizabad


LCA lamps


JV Tools, Hyderabad


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Kanti Industry, Bangalore


Precision CNC Manufacturing


Karnataka Erectors, Bangalore


Fabrication of Combined Performance Test Rig (CVRDE) and Wheel Roll Test Rig (HAL-LD)


Khalsa Engineering Works, Kanpur


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Kobayashi, Hyderabad


Machining of Precision Components


Kumaran Industries, Bangalore


Supplies all the metallic wing components, landing gear parts, critical fuselage parts and fin fittings, (~100 products). It also supplies 180 parts, including compressor shaft, compressor casing, and compressor blades, for the Kaveri engine.


It also manufactures about 250 parts for the Saras, a light plane developed by HAL and National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). Parts include wing components, vertical tail, horizontal stabiliser, rear fuselage and door. For more information contact kumaran@blr.vsnl.net.in

Kuvarp Industries, Bangalore


Development of Vulcanised Fuel system items


Lakshmi Patterns Works, Chennai (LPW)


Development of tooling for AMAGB castings and Pump castings for Radar Cooling


L&T, Bangalore.


Precision CNC Manufacturing


Microcon Instruments & Systems Ltd. Bangalore


PC based ECS simulator and Controller emulator DAS for Attitude Test Rig of AMAGB


Minitech, Bangalore


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


MTAR Machine Tool Aids & Reconditioning, Hyderabad.


LRUs Manufacture and Precision Tools.


Mobile Access Positioning (P) Ltd.,
15/A, Electronics City,
Bangalore - 561 229.
India.


Work related to Ground Checkout System (GCS), Coding and Control Unit (CCU), Mission Preparation and Retrieval Unit (MPRU), and Mission Computer Test Station (MCTS), Mission Computer (MC), Display Processor Test Station (DPTS), Digital Engine Control Unit (DECU)


This company has branched out into several product lines relating to positioning and tracking systems and embedded systems. ItÃ¢â¬â¢s website may be found at http://www.emapnav.com/html/home.htm

A list of customers may be found at http://www.emapnav.com/html/customers.htm

Manjira Machine Builders, Hyderabad


Machine tools for LCA manufacture


Neonwires, Pune.


Bought out items


OMC, Hyderabad.


Simulator/Simulation


PEECO, Calcutta


Tools Moulds and Fixtures


Pratibha Industries Bangalore


Tools Moulds and Fixtures


Process Wire.


S/W development


Ramsoft Technologies (domestic branch of Fusion Software Engineering)
4/1, "Deviah Court", 22nd Cross
8th Main, 3rd Block, Jayanagar
Bangalore - 560 011. India Tel: +91-80-8521191/92
Fax: +91-80-8521193
rst.in@ramsoftech.com


Software design and development relating to the Mission Computer and other embedded systems with ASIEO and LRDE.


Company has diversified into several areas in embedded systems. More information about tis projects and clients can be found at http://www.ramsoftech.com/

Rashmi Tools, Hyderabad


Tools Moulds and Fixtures


Raghu Vamshi Engineering Services Hyderabad


Tools Moulds and Fixtures


RK Engineering Industries


Tools Moulds and Fixtures


Roshine Autoelectricals Ltd


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Sanghvi Aerospace, Ahmedabad


SASMIRA Bombay


Design of spindles and weaving technology for Kevlar Socks needed to make MMR


Shanthi Gears Ltd, Coimbatire


LCA accessory gear boxes.


Shanti Gears has made, gears for ALH, Chetak, Lancer, screw jacks for nuclear projects, and custom-made gear boxes for testing battle tanks. email: sglcbe@vsnl.com, sglcmd@vsnl.com
Home page: www.shantigears.com

Sheeba Computers


S/W development


Silicon Graphics, Delhi


Simulator/Simulation VRML for CAD


This is the beginnings of VRML based design in India.

Sujan industries, Mumbai


Rubber components LCA K-seal


email: rubber.sujan@sujanind.sprintrpg.sprint.com

Southern Electronics, Bangalore


Fire detection and warning


Sujana Bangalore


S/W Development


System Controls

(Bangalore)


Air Data Test System (ADTS)


This company offers a variety of Avionics products, details may be found at their website http://www.system-controls.com/index.html and they have also recently moved into e-commerce

Tata Elxi, bangalore


Simulator/Simulation for Maintenance Operations.


Titanium Tantalum Products, Chennai


take-off engine gear shafts and indigenised a number of LCA components through GTRE


Company has built gun blast tubes based on samples given by HAL and is the only unit in the world who can make 5-tonne magnesium alloy casting which tests engine vibration and monitors corrosion rate.

Trabha Machineries, Bangalore


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Triveni Hi-Tech Pvt. Ltd

THPL@bgl.vsnl.net.in, thplnms@blr.vsnl.net.in


Manufacturers of Aircraft, Aero engine components and sub assemblies.
LCA combustion liner The company has supplied tig-welded rings for the LCA's Kaveri engine.


Triveni Hi-Tech has reverse-engineered scarce parts of Mi helicopters and the MiG-21. It caters exclusively to machining needs of defense-related undertakings. Pratt & Whitney approves this company for engine related work.

Turbotech, Bangalore


Uplock 3 Types


Unnathi Corp, Ahmedabad


Trial weaving of Carbon Fibre cloth.


Vishnu Forge


Steel Forgings


Vision Labs, Hyderabad


Simulator/Simulation.


Vivasonics, Hyderabad


Portable C-SPAN equipment for detecting flaws in Composites


Useful in other quality CFC manufactures.

Venkateshwara Mechanical and Electrical Engineering Industries.


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Vizarya Gauges and Equipments


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


Walchand Industries


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures


WIDIA, Bangalore


C-SPAN equipment for detecting flaws in composites.


Useful in other quality CFC manufactures.

WIPRO Bangalore.


S/W Development


Yukew India, Bangalore


Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures




Notes

1. Defending India, Jaswant Singh, MP, South Asia Books, 1999.
2.
3. http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1802/18020440.htm. Refer to the description of the events surrounding the removal of the Late Dr. Raj Mahindra in the article by Dr. Valluri (former DG-ADA) in the Hindu. http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/05032524.htm
4.
5. http://www.the-week.com/98dec27/events3.htm. Admiral IN (R) J.Nadkarni, http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm
6. Lt. Gen.(R) Harwant Singh,http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010101/edit.htm - 3
7.
8. http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/12/25/stories/05252512.htm Manoj Joshi http://www.timesofindia.com/today/05lcap2.htm.
9. Manoj Joshi http://www.india-today.com/itoday/24111997/defence.html.
10. Manvendra Singh, http://www.pakdef.com/iaf/tanksand.html.
11. A. Rangachari(Formerly IMF budget adviser and trustee) http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/04/05/stories/0605000f.htm
12. Brian Cloughley (Former Australian Armed Forces officer, currently residing in Pakistan) http://www.pakdef.com/iaf/disaster.html
13. (Self-reliance or self-inflicted wound? from Business Standard, Delhi, 25 October 1995 by Eric H. Arnett) (http://projects.sipri.se/technology/'Self-reliance'.html)
14.
15. http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1999_book1/chapter6_p2.htm `MiG-21 Fishbed: The worldÃ¢â¬â¢s most widely used supersonic fighterÃ¢â¬â¢, Yefim Gordon and Bill Gunston, Midland Publishing, 1996.
16. In 1996, Lockheed-Martin started collaborating in the LCA program with the LCA Flight Control software being validated on an F-16 platform. This made sound sense as the aerodynamics and flight characteristics of the F-16 were very well known and hence it made a suitable test bed for the FBW software.
17.
18. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/
19. http://www.tvk.rwth-aachen.de/~osman/f16/f16history.html
20. http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/jas39.htm
21. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/gripen.htm An excellent source of information about the JAS39 Gripen http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/
22.
23. http://www.f-16.net/reference/versions/f16_afti.html
24. http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/partners.html
25. http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1997/articles/jul_97/july4h_97.html The landing gear development costs were sunk into the B-58 program a good 10 years earlier. The B-58 program consumed roughly $300 Million (in 1950s money).
26. The Air Data Probe for the Lockheed SR-71 is an enormously complicated item; it is designed to operate across a temperature differential of over a 1000 degrees centigrade (i.e. between the outer skin and the internal instrumentation bay). This probe took a good two years to develop and its cost were sunk into the SR-71 project funds in the late 60s.
27.
28. http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1999/articles/apr_99/apr2a_99.html
29. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/
30. http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/35draken.htm
31. http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/37viggen.htm Concluded from various articles on http://www.f-16.net/
32. The story of PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s F-16 deals and the effects of sanctions are described at http://www.f-16.net/reference/users/f16_pk.html
33. `Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum Multi Role FighterÃ¢â¬â¢ by Yefim Gordon, MBI Publishing, 1999
34.
35. http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1993_book1/chapter3_p2.htm - para6
36. http://www.fighter-planes.com/
37. http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/2000_book1/index.htm
38. http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1601/16010670.htm
39. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/Specs-Combat.html
40. http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avionics/previous/0600/06mirage.htm
41. http://www.alphalink.com.au/~bjordan/news-12.html
42. http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/mir2000.htm According to [9] UAE recently placed an order for 30 Mirage 2000-9 (custom built variants of the Mirage 2000-5) and for an upgrade of 33 of its Mirage 2000Bs to Mirage 2000-9. The deal is an estimated $2 Billion. The estimated cost of the Mirage 2000-9 is about $55 Million and this puts the cost of the upgrade to be about $5-10 Million.
43.
44. http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1995_book1/chapter3.htm#para4
45. http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1999_book1/chapter6_p2.htm - para28 Wollen, MSD, "The Light Combat Aircraft Story". Indian Aviation, Opening Show report, Aero India 2001.
46.
47. http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/050898/detNAT05.htm
48. http://www.drdo.org/ada/ADA98-99/capital_outlay.pdf
49. http://www.drdo.org/ada/ADA98-99/activities.pdf.
50. http://www.ada.gov.in/adawebsite/act-aboutlca.html
51. http://www.timesofindia.com/130101/13mban5.htm
52. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada91-92/activities91-92.pdf
53. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada96-97/activities96-97.pdf
54. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada90-91/activities90-91.pdf
55. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada92-93/activities92-93.pdf
56. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada97-98/activities97-98.pdf
57. http://www.hindubusinessline.com/1996/03/13/BLFP16.html
58. http://www.the-week.com/21feb25/events2.htm
59. http://www.economictimes.com/270898/27feat01.htm
60. http://www.the-week.com/98dec27/events3.htm
61. http://www.ada.gov.in/adawebsite/pressrelease-4jan2001.html.
62. http://www.ada.gov.in/adawebsite/workcentres-home.html
63. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada94-95/activities94-95.pdf
64. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada89-90/activities89-90.pdf
65. http://www.economictimes.com/270898/27feat01.htm
66. http://www.indiaserver.com/businessline/1998/12/12/stories/03120046.htm `The Great Indian Hope: Its Light Combat Aircraft ProgramÃ¢â¬â¢, Vayu Magazine, 1996 Issue.
67.
68. http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/19980918/26150254.html
69. http://www.barc.ernet.in/webpages/letter/newsletter_year_2000/jun2000.html
70. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/contractor/krithi1.htm
71. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada93-94/activities93-94.pdf
72. http://www.drdo.org/ada/Ada95-96/activities95-96.pdf
73. http://www.atip.or.jp/ATIP/public/atip.reports.97/atip97.033r.html.
74. http://www.indiaserver.com/businessline/1998/08/05/stories/12050672.htm
75. www.csir.res.in/General_Info/demands/grant99-2000.html
76. http://www.the-week.com/21feb25/events2.htm
http://www.ramsoftech.com/ASIEO2.jpg 


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/sainis.html


----------



## Contrarian

The Bharat Rakshak Monitor article was an EXCELLENT read Key. Thanks for that. It shed some new info and perspective (y).


----------



## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> The Bharat Rakshak Monitor article was an EXCELLENT read Key. Thanks for that. It shed some new info and perspective (y).



No problem....


----------



## Keysersoze

23 yrs and first fighter aircraft hasnÃ¢â¬â¢t taken off
AMITAV RANJAN / Siv Aroor
Posted online: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 at 0000 hrs

LCA: By its new deadline 2010 (thrice revised), project would have cost Rs 4000 crore extra; radar, engine still not in place, IAF says itÃ¢â¬â¢s not ready to certify LCAÃ¢â¬â¢s technology until 2008 clearance

New Delhi, November 14: At its last meeting in December 2005, the General Body of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the society developing the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, recorded one fact: the Indian Air Force, despite official plans to ultimately buy 220 LCAs, would order only 20 aircraft. 

And that the IAF had refused to push the order up until itÃ¢â¬â¢s convinced that the new 2010 deadline, the projectÃ¢â¬â¢s third consecutive time over-run, would be met.

The IAF had more than a reason.

According to latest official figures that will shortly be tabled by the Standing Committee on Defence in a report for Parliament, available with The Indian Express, DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s 23-year-old indigenous fighter aircraft programme, taken as a whole Ã¢â¬â including the radar, jet engine and Naval variant Ã¢â¬â would have wiped away a minimum of Rs 9444.5 crore by 2010. Aggregate cost over-run: Rs 4,094 crore. Delay: 12.5 years and counting.

By DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s own testimony in June to the same committee, there are still Ã¢â¬Åcertain complexities,Ã¢â¬Â although it claims it will produce the 20 LCAs on order from the IAF by December 2011. But that would still be understandable if the LCA was in any way ready. 

Five months after the ADA meeting, Air chief S P Tyagi communicated in no uncertain terms to then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee that his force could not depend on the programme in the short term. Shortly thereafter, he told The Indian Express: Ã¢â¬ÅWe have to see if it is a suitably modern aircraft when it is complete. Right now we just cannot take any decisions. We can only wait for initial operational clearance (in 2008).Ã¢â¬Â

The implication: the IAF is not sure if the LCA would have slipped down a few generations by the time itÃ¢â¬â¢s inducted. But the Standing Committee only had this to say: Ã¢â¬ÅThe Committee are constrained to note that, keeping in view the ever-increasing delay in operational clearance of LCA, early induction of the same as IAF squadrons seems to be an unrealistic proposition.Ã¢â¬Â

Just how unrealistic it is is something that has come to characterize the LCA programme ever since its inception in August 1983, and culminating now in a gravely unready fighter aircraft that the IAF could have no choice but to induct in large numbers from 2012. 

Consider the following: Despite a battery of nine test pilots who have been embedded with the LCA programme, the IAF has refused to officially certify any technological aspect of the LCA apart from its structural strength, until initial operational clearance (IOC). Air Headquarters said so, in a written reply to this newspaper. The clearance should have been achieved by 2007 but its new schedule is 2008.

After a four-year wait following the rollout of the LCA technology demonstrator in 1997 for a first flight, former Air chief S Krishnaswamy made out an official case in 2003 for a Ã¢â¬Ålimited series inductionÃ¢â¬Â of the aircraft to give the IAF a chance to familiarize itself. He told The Indian Express, Ã¢â¬ÅThe LCA is not full in any way, each prototype is different. I was a staunch supporter of indigenisation but am also very critical. How long can you keep on developing a product?Ã¢â¬Â

The eight promised Limited Series Production fighters, envisaged as a part of the Rs 3,301.78 crore second phase of the programme, are nowhere in sight. The LCA, which should have undergone weapons trials by 2003, will now only undergo Ã¢â¬ÅdummyÃ¢â¬Â trials in December 2007 according to DRDO chief M Natarajan, putting a big question mark on the possibility of IOC by 2008.

The real problem: the HAL-DRDO multi-mode radar, the very brain that will guide the LCAÃ¢â¬â¢s weapons, is not ready. After spending Rs 166.8 crore since 1997, HAL has decided to bring in a foreign technical partner to bail it out. The radar has been tested on an HS-748 Avro, but persistent problems with software and its signal processor have forced HAL and DRDO to admit their failure.

DRDO has justified the delays and their impact on the IAFÃ¢â¬â¢s preparedness by pointing to a revision of the development strategy because of a foreign exchange shortage in the 1990s, US sanctions, re-designing composite wings for weapon definition after January 2004 and extensive on-ground and independent evaluation.

After a cost and time overrun of Rs 2,456 crore and 13 years since 1996, DRDO admitted to the Standing Committee in June that it could complete the Kaveri engine only under a foreign joint venture. Problems that have crippled the Kaveri, according to the latest DRDO testimony, include critical glitches in aerodynamic, aero-mechanical, combustion and structural integrity.

Most significantly, DRDO has admitted to the Committee that to improve performance and safety issues, a JV could be attempted. Former DRDO chief V K Aatre said: Ã¢â¬ÅWhen I retired (in August 2004), there were some loose ends in the programme involving the radar and jet engine. But I am surprised they have still not been resolved.Ã¢â¬Â

The DRDO was pulled up in January by the Standing Committee to explain how the LCAÃ¢â¬â¢s delays would impact the IAFÃ¢â¬â¢s modernization. Their reply: Ã¢â¬ÅIAF only can state the possible impact of delay on modernization exclusively due to LCA.Ã¢â¬Â

But at Air HQ, an unofficial and approximate damage analysis of the LCAÃ¢â¬â¢s delay, shared with The Indian Express, is to the tune of Rs 11,440 crore in forced upgrades (some variants of the MiG-21 that the LCA was to replace will be forced to serve till 2019-2021 at least) and stop-gap acquisitions.

This does not include the purchase of 126 fighters potentially worth Rs 30,000 crore that the IAF will shortly begin an acquisition process for. In an unusual move, the Naval LCA will use air data systems from RussiaÃ¢â¬â¢s state-owned Rosobornexport, which will also create a shore-based test facility for the Rs 948.90 crore development. MiG Corporation will conduct a design review and be DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s chief consultant. 

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/16658-2.html


----------



## Contrarian

I still say that IAF should buy the plane around 50-100 even if they have to buy it around 2010-12. So that IAF has an idea of the plane's actual working and that ADA gets valuable input frm the user. We HAVE to promote our indegenous industry, there is no way around it.


----------



## Neo

malaymishra123 said:


> I still say that IAF should buy the plane around 50-100 even if they have to buy it around 2010-12. So that IAF has an idea of the plane's actual working and that ADA gets valuable input frm the user. We HAVE to promote our indegenous industry, there is no way around it.



Dude,

The project is running for 24 years already and has cost you over $5 billions. I'm not sure if its wise to continue the development.
I would respect the decision to halt the project now, call it a technology demonstrator and start all over again in a 50:50 JV with Russia to develop your future 4.5 gen fighter.
Just a thought...


----------



## Contrarian

No, How else are we to develop aj indegenous industry? You have NO IDEA how much India gained,building LCA , its spinoff's have been used EVERYWHERE. India i believe upgraded one of its old planes on its own without help or buying an upgradation package from the OEM. India made FBW on its OWN. It gave India ablity to manufacture composites, etc, etc. These are things you dont gain in a JV. Having a JV does not mean you built the plane.

When we started this, India had NO industrial capability for anything of such a scale. Now we have, it must not be allowed to goto waste. The experience gained must not be left.

India has to go it alone, taking inputs along the way and help when a critical roadblock is hit. That is it. Since we have already done that. And on the paper LCA has fabulous specs, we should give it an honest try. Induct it in decent numbers, say 50, then work with it. That is how it will improve, there maybe block 2, the inputs may lead to creation of another plane. 

BTW what we are already developing with Russia a 5th gen plane.


----------



## Neo

Agree on most accounts but halting the project and calling it a technology demonstrator won't distroy your infrastructure nor will it take away the knowledge and expertise you gained.

I just have difficulty accepting that LCA can be produced under $20 million a unit unless you increase the production to atleast 200+ and get decent export orders.
I also don't believe the IN will ever induct the naval version.

Block II is a possiblility if the current tachnical problems are solved. Kaveri isn't going anywhere, further foreign involvement will only make it more 'imported' and less 'indegenous' and more expensive.


----------



## Contrarian

How will ADA gain user input then? I know calling it TD will not destroy the infrastructure, but it wont start improving the infrastructure either. Contnuously improving the LCA or building another one with a clear objective ahead will. And that is where IAF requirements and experiences will be all important.

We can see whether LCA is under $20 million or not, but the point is, we are getting a plane that would be VERY good, it would not be JUST a replacement for the old MiGs.

IN has CLEARLY stated that it plans to get the N-LCA. What alternative will it have? It wont go for more MiG 29K's.F-35 will take a LONG time, as there are already loads of countries in waiting list. Rafale-N is good, but not certain. Naval version for IN means carrier ac.

Getting foreign consultancy for solving technical problems does not make the engine less indegenous Neo. Solving the technical bottlenecks with foreign help is more the thing that they are doing, instead of asking them to build the engine for them. Like i said, everything in this country is a start. And since it is a start, we should promote it.


----------



## con

Neo said:


> Dude,
> 
> The project is running for 24 years already and has cost *you over $5 billions*. I'm not sure if its wise to continue the development.
> .



Where did you get that figure from? 



> in May 1989 the program was projected by the government's review committee to cost Rs. 5,600 crores.....by the end of 2000, the total Phase 1 cost had risen to about Rs. 3,000 crores....When FSED Phase 2 was launched in November 2001, it was authorised under a budget of Rs. 3,302 crores (about US $704 million)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

that is around 1.3 -1.5 billion. A 4 gen FBW,with composite structure,advanced avonics and ecm fighter, with possibly Indian radar(on the way) and a industry to support it... I would say it is worth it. We had to start someday.


----------



## Neo

con said:


> Where did you get that figure from?


From some subject related thread in WAB, figs came from Indian members.



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
> 
> that is around 1.3 -1.5 billion. A 4 gen FBW,with composite structure,advanced avonics and ecm fighter, with possibly Indian radar(on the way) and a industry to support it... I would say it is worth it. We had to start someday.


%1.5 billion in 23 years or average $65,2 million a year, thats quite low considering the fact a lot of foreign expertise and consultancy is involved don't you think?
I don't take wikipedia seriously, its publically amendable


----------



## Keysersoze

Hey Has anyone got a picture of the LCA with it's weapons loaded? I have been reading some interesting stuff in regards to it's maneuverability with weapons loaded on its wings. 

Also What are the roles it is slated for?


----------



## con

Neo said:


> From some subject related thread in WAB, figs came from Indian members.
> 
> 
> %1.5 billion in 23 years or average $65,2 million a year, thats quite low considering the fact a lot of foreign expertise and consultancy is involved don't you think?
> I don't take wikipedia seriously, its publically amendable



Neo, 5 billion dollar is almost around 7-8 years of DRDO's complete budget. DRDO still does not receive even 1 billion dollar annual budget. Do you think it will spend 5 billion on a single project? It definitely wont.
By the way the details on the wiki are backed by sources,right towards the end of the page.

There were some percentage of consultancy budget,but never a high degree. DRDO can never get it's budget sanctioned if expensive consultancy was invovlved.


----------



## ahussains

malaymishra123 said:


> No, How else are we to develop aj indegenous industry? You have NO IDEA how much India gained,building LCA , its spinoff's have been used EVERYWHERE. India i believe upgraded one of its old planes on its own without help or buying an upgradation package from the OEM. India made FBW on its OWN. It gave India ablity to manufacture composites, etc, etc. These are things you dont gain in a JV. Having a JV does not mean you built the plane.
> 
> When we started this, India had NO industrial capability for anything of such a scale. Now we have, it must not be allowed to goto waste. The experience gained must not be left.
> 
> India has to go it alone, taking inputs along the way and help when a critical roadblock is hit. That is it. Since we have already done that. And on the paper LCA has fabulous specs, we should give it an honest try. Induct it in decent numbers, say 50, then work with it. That is how it will improve, there maybe block 2, the inputs may lead to creation of another plane.
> 
> BTW what we are already developing with Russia a 5th gen plane.



No One knows what india got by building the LCA ,, Even the Indians also dont know what they got in 24 years of time.. its start the prduction all of because JF17 enterd the service in just 8 years and your athourties have to answer the public its same story like Alkhalid tank and Arjun have.. a 35 years of Old project not conform so far.. *(Sorry if i break some one HEART)*:wall:


----------



## EagleEyes

> BTW what we are already developing with Russia a 5th gen plane.



Interesting. Seems like i have been behind the updates. Any links?


----------



## Contrarian

ahussains said:


> No One knows what india got by building the LCA ,, Even the Indians also dont know what they got in 24 years of time.. its start the prduction all of because JF17 enterd the service in just 8 years and your athourties have to answer the public its same story like Alkhalid tank and Arjun have.. a 35 years of Old project not conform so far.. *(Sorry if i break some one HEART)*:wall:



Then you dont know anything about LCA or JF-17. JF-17 is a medium tech fighter, metal body, etc, etc.

LCA is being made into something completely different. It plans to have 45% composites. India is doing everything herself, Jf-17 is Chinese. We got hit by sanctions, it delayed a LOT of things, etc, etc. India like i have said gained a LOT by building LCA. You wont understand.


----------



## Adux

It is already 90% composites by surface area not total weight.
check the National geographic Video for reference. Congrats Pakistan but as much as we are concerend JF-17 aint any super-duper fighter. especially compared to the LCA,


----------



## Contrarian

But they still got a cheap plane to replace all their ageing planes Adux. We should not look at what JF-17 is from the perpective of MiG29/Mirages/F-16's, but from the perspective of replacing their old F-7's,MirageIII/V, etc, etc. It gives them greater defence capabilities wrt what they had earlier.


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> It is already 90% composites by surface area not total weight.
> check the National geographic Video for reference. Congrats Pakistan but as much as we are concerend JF-17 aint any super-duper fighter. especially compared to the LCA,



I would love to hear why the LCA is as good as you think? I have looked quite a lot at it and am not that impressed. Why? composites are great but lightweight metals are better for aircraft design. 
How about the problems with the tail-less delta design? Please tell me about that! 
Also the tail-less delta and its fewer control surfaces (to create simpler FBW?)


----------



## Adux

Light Weight Materials, Dont give you the advantage of Radar Absorption on the level of composites. Do they.
I am not a great fan of Tail less Delta Design,

But for your reading pleasure

http://www.avroarrow.org/Jim Floyd/JamesFloydRAeS2.html

Its about one of my favorite fighters


----------



## con

keysersoze said:


> I would love to hear why the LCA is as good as you think? I have looked quite a lot at it and am not that impressed. Why? composites are great but lightweight metals are better for aircraft design.



Composite are choosen bcoz they are lighter and give higher strength for their weight. That is the reason the load capacity of LCA is around 3.5 tonne,almost equal to JF-17.

Now compare the size of JF-17 to LCA.


----------



## Contrarian

*BHPV to make components for naval combat plane*
Monday April 9 2007 10:49 IST

VISAKHAPATNAM: Bharat Heavy Plates and Vessels Limited (BHPV), which had successfully developed heat exchangers for the prototype Light Combat Aircraft, is now making 13 sets of similar components for the LCAÃ¢â¬â¢s naval variant Ã¢â¬â Tejas.

BHPV has been assigned with the design and development of Precoolers and Full Authority Digital Electronic Controller Coolers (FADEC).

The heat exchangers will reduce the Ã¢â¬Ëengine bleed temperatureÃ¢â¬â¢ to safe levels and cool the FADEC.

According to officials sources, BHPV is also developing oxygen concentrator for the Onboard Oxygen Generating System, which provides oxygen- rich air at all altitudes to the pilots of Tejas.

It may be recalled that the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Defence Bangalore- based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) have awarded the contract for manufacturing of series of heat exchangers for LCA the BHPV amidst stiff global competition.

A top official of the BHPV told this websiteÃ¢â¬â¢s newspaper that emphasis was being laid on developing new products which would help the company in getting more orders.

The LCA project came as boost for the BHPV which required such prestigious orders to enhance its profile at a time when speculation was intense that it (BHPV) would be taken over by BHEL.
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20070409002816


----------



## gnat

sorry but no offence to anyone, i keep hearing that jf-17 has inducted in paf from last five years, but this is what kind of induction of plane?, where jf-17 has still going through test flights, not even its weapon option has't finalised as yet


----------



## Adux

MirBadshah said:


> Whats this LAC/LCA???
> 
> Do it means "Late Air Craft" or "Least Air Craft"??



What a nice thing to do, under-estimation of your enemy.lol

LCA is a stupid aircraft, dont worry about it, or any Indian capabilities. Wait for it break up in 30 years. And you can walk in and Make the great Empire.


----------



## EagleEyes

gnat said:


> sorry but no offence to anyone, i keep hearing that jf-17 has inducted in paf from last five years, but this is what kind of induction of plane?, where jf-17 has still going through test flights, not even its weapon option has't finalised as yet



JF-17 has been inducted in PAF from last five years? What kind of news have you been reading or hearing? Hindu/India Times?

Only 2 aircrafts have been inducted. 2 more are to come this year, and later more.


----------



## con

LCA LSP-1 had it's first flight 



> The First Production Aircraft LSP1 touched the skies and had a flawless flight for approximately 45 minutes


http://www.ada.gov.in/index.html


----------



## Adux

So that will be the TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, and now LSP 1

So this will be the piece that will be transfered to the IAF, or are they still ADA machines


----------



## con

Adux said:


> So that will be the TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, and now LSP 1
> 
> So this will be the piece that will be transfered to the IAF, or are they still ADA machines



This is a production bird. Very close to the the airframe that IAF would be carrying out the IOC.

It helps set up the process for the production and additional airframe to carry out the certification and IOC.

LSP-2 is already on the production line.


----------



## Adux

So it is not going to be an IAF bird in the future.
When is the Two-Seater LCA coming out, I have already seen the pictures of it being built. I would call it 70% complete from the picture.


----------



## EagleEyes

Like to share?

If the one-seater is hard to make in the IAF. Why build another class?


----------



## Bull

LSP is The First Production Aircraft LSP1 touched the skies and had a flawless flight for approximately 45 minutes. The first production aircraft LSP1 was piloted by Group Captain AP Singh. There are un confirm reports that LSP-1 went supersonic in its first flight and flews at Mach 1.1 with Lca TD-2 as its chase aircraft. Lsp-1 took off today afternoon after 14.15 hrs.


----------



## Keysersoze

WebMaster said:


> Like to share?
> 
> If the one-seater is hard to make in the IAF. Why build another class?



It's probably the pilot conversion/trainer version.


----------



## con

Keysersoze said:


> It's probably the pilot conversion/trainer version.


instead of another IAF prototype,a two seat trainer and a naval prototype is being built.


----------



## Adux

Webby,

LCA program is finally on the fast track and progressing very smoothly

LCA Twin Seater


----------



## Adux




----------



## joey

From AFM, April/May issue: 

TD - 1 Jan, 2001 
TD - 2 June, 2002 

PV - 1 Nov, 2003 
PV - 2 Dec, 2005 
PV - 3 Dec, 2006 
PV - 4 Cancelled. Converted to trainer 
PV - 5 Trainer. To fly after PV - 6 
PV - 6 Replaced by PV - 4. Will fly after LSP - 01 

LSP-01 KH2006. Taxi trials Feb 6, 2007 
LSP-02 Uses F404-GE-IN20. Flies April 2007 
LSP-03 MMR and close to IOC standard 
LSP-04 Fly late 2008 
LSP-05 " 
LSP-06 " 
LSP-07 " 
LSP-08 " 

NP - 1 Naval trainer. Flies in 2008 
NP - 2 Naval fighter. Flies in 2008


----------



## BATMAN

What would be the per unit cost?


----------



## BATMAN

I was reading an article from Dr. P.R.Kumaraswamy, which also mentioned:


> as much as 70 percent of the LCA components are imported.


I wonder what would be the share of foreign consultancy and in the end would it be fair to declare it an indegenous Indian product with all credits to DRDO.


----------



## Keysersoze

BATMAN said:


> What would be the per unit cost?



Yeah this is something that would be of great interest..... with the constant delays the unit price MUST have increased. The purchase of external parts and knowledge will have racked up the price as well.


----------



## BATMAN

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah this is something that would be of great interest..... with the constant delays the unit price MUST have increased. The purchase of external parts and knowledge will have racked up the price as well.



According to one (out of many) estimates on wiki the unit price may go well up to 35MUSD.
I wonder if these estimates count the development cost of Kaveri engine or not?

Due to development delays IAF is forced to do major service and overhall of its mig21 (in order to keep them alive) which again (web info.) may cost 400MUSD for 125 units!
And also due to delays IAF had lost many planes and pilots on those migs, which again may have costed dearly!
In that case (common sense) its not very viable or wise to keep spending on such an ill concieved project, but then what are the factors which are forcing all governments to keep rolling this project!
Is it the local contractors who have there interest associated? or 
Is it the self-esteem? or 
Is it a tit for tat approach against the development of JF-17? or 
Is it for the sake of fame? or
Is it just India is rich enough to afford expensive labs and costly trainings for its young engineers?

Recent test flight of a prototype indicates that India suddenly become very serious in the swift completion of LCA project. But we also know local engine will not be ready any time soon, hence I assume that most likely it will be GE-F404 type, other wise modifications may be required on Airframe. 
Are there any news about this potential order?


----------



## Adux

Anywhere between 25mil to 35mil will be a correct assesment.
Heck after all the upgradation the Su-30MKI costs us 55mil and we are making 230 of 'em


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> According to one (out of many) estimates on wiki the unit price may go well up to 35MUSD.
> I wonder if these estimates count the development cost of Kaveri engine or not?
> 
> Due to development delays IAF is forced to do major service and overhall of its mig21 (in order to keep them alive) which again (web info.) may cost 400MUSD for 125 units!
> And also due to delays IAF had lost many planes and pilots on those migs, which again may have costed dearly!
> In that case (common sense) its not very viable or wise to keep spending on such an ill concieved project, but then what are the factors which are forcing all governments to keep rolling this project!
> Is it the local contractors who have there interest associated? or
> Is it the self-esteem? or
> Is it a tit for tat approach against the development of JF-17? or
> Is it for the sake of fame? or
> Is it just India is rich enough to afford expensive labs and costly trainings for its young engineers?
> 
> Recent test flight of a prototype indicates that India suddenly become very serious in the swift completion of LCA project. But we also know local engine will not be ready any time soon, hence I assume that most likely it will be GE-F404 type, other wise modifications may be required on Airframe.
> Are there any news about this potential order?



Ge-F404 type was the original Engine for LCA from TD1; Kaveri is made to LCA specs, No need of Aircraft Changes.This is the same engine in Gripen

25mil-35mil can be easily expected for a carbon composite plane like LCA, heck we paid 55mil for Su-30MKI, and we are making 240 of them.

Recent Testing of Protype's have been advertised atleast 1 year back, refer ADA website. The Flight Hours as well achievements given over there.

Yes India can afford it, rather well. We are going for the MMRCA too. LCA(MiG-21); MMRCA(MiG-23/27), PAK-FA(New additions)

Indian MiG-21's are already upgraded to Bison standard.

There are no Tit-for tat with JF-17, We are building a Aeronautical Industry. We already have the ToT's manufacturing of lots aircrafts.

Ill-Concieved Project ,Heck No, Ill-managed Yes.... We are pretty much can afford it, and there are other factors such as the Technological base at stake here. 

There are 5 prototypes already; Sixth one will fly this november which is a two seater as well as the Naval Version. I would give LCA a lot of credit.


----------



## BATMAN

Cool..



Adux said:


> Ge-F404 type was the original Engine for LCA from TD1; Kaveri is made to LCA specs, No need of Aircraft Changes.This is the same engine in Gripen



This is bit unclear, 
What you are saying is that LCA will go a head with foreign engine untill Kaveri is ready! and Kaveri is a sort of plug and play replacement of GE-F404



Adux said:


> 25mil-35mil can be easily expected for a carbon composite plane like LCA, heck we paid 55mil for Su-30MKI, and we are making 240 of them.



You think in 25-35MUSD LCA will have same avionics as SU-MKI.
Still 35MUSD.... Only India can afford it.



Adux said:


> I would give LCA a lot of credit.


Why not eventually it will be flying in IAF.
BTW, any expected dates!


----------



## Shehz

LCA delay has caused an increased price hike of *US $ 21 Million *per jet. The Govt. is not happy with it as that's the price tag of the Saab Grippen and The F-16, and The LCA is not half as advanced as those.

Indian economists and military think tanks predict the cost to go upto as much as $ 65 Million per jet by 2020.

Although, with The GE Engine, the first jet might roll out of production around 2007, induction is expected between 2012-2015.

References:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/lca/
http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/207.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas


----------



## Adux

> Cool..



I know, Check out the Nat Geo Video on LCA. Its here in the Mil Multimedia section.



> This is bit unclear,
> What you are saying is that LCA will go a head with foreign engine untill Kaveri is ready! and Kaveri is a sort of plug and play replacement of GE-F404



Yes, exactly. If the JF-17 can plug n play a WS-13A and Rd93 then why not the LCA.



> You think in 25-35MUSD LCA will have same avionics as SU-MKI.
> Still 35MUSD.... Only India can afford it.



How can it have the same avionics; for example N011 Radar wont fit in the nosecone of LCA. They are for different roles; Airsuperiority and Point Defence are different.



> Why not eventually it will be flying in IAF.
> BTW, any expected dates!



Flip through to the page prior to this you will see the amount of proto-types. There are more LCA prototypes than JF-17. Check out the Video I mentioned and you will get a better idea. I would expect it to be in IAF colours by the end of 2009/10.


----------



## EagleEyes

You know what i see? I see LCA like Arjun. It might turns out to be a capable aircraft to be flown, but when it comes to the price. It will just be priceless!


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Yes, exactly. If the JF-17 can plug n play a WS-13A and Rd93 then why not the LCA.
> 
> 
> .



Those two engines are pretty much the same thing....
unless the Kaveri is exactly the same dimensions as the GE-F404 then there will be some alterations required


----------



## Adux

WebMaster said:


> You know what i see? I see LCA like Arjun. It might turns out to be a capable aircraft to be flown, but when it comes to the price. It will just be priceless!



Arjun has impressed the Brass in the current War games. As far as various reports all its problems has been solved. More than half the cost of Arjun is its German Engine. The only way IA can bring its cost down, is to bring its Engine cost down. Both Arjun and LCA, though have taken considerable amount of time, has turned out to be quite nice weapon platforms


----------



## EagleEyes

Actually LCA has yet to show anything impressive. No offence. Like it has been mentioned, countries will likely go for F-16 or Gripen with the same price than they go for LCA.


----------



## Adux

WebMaster said:


> Actually LCA has yet to show anything impressive. No offence. Like it has been mentioned, countries will likely go for F-16 or Gripen with the same price than they go for LCA.



LCA is not to impress the world Webby, The Indian Aeronautical Industry is going to be built around it. Look at the amount of carbon composite tech involved. India doesnt have an aircraft which has so much carbon composite involved. It is slated to get the Elta 2052 AESA. I would consider it be a very good platform. How much world is impressed with India will be known after PV-5 fires its weapon system for the first time.


----------



## Shehz

Adux said:


> IYes, exactly. If the JF-17 can plug n play a WS-13A and Rd93 then why not the LCA.



Firstly, The WS-13 is being developed, not done yet.
Secondly, it's not plug and play, it's being made specifically for the JF-17, just as the WS-10 for The J-10A.

Neither can be revesed as the length is different.
Similarly, it can't "plug & Play" into the LCA either.


----------



## EagleEyes

> How much world is impressed with India will be known after PV-5 fires its weapon system for the first time.



Is there going to be a surprise.


----------



## Adux

Shehz said:


> Firstly, The WS-13 is being developed, not done yet.
> Secondly, it's not plug and play, it's being made specifically for the JF-17, just as the WS-10 for The J-10A.
> 
> Neither can be revesed as the length is different.
> Similarly, it can't "plug & Play" into the LCA either.



So is Kaveri, hope you got what i was trying to convey


----------



## Bull

WebMaster said:


> Actually LCA has yet to show anything impressive. No offence. Like it has been mentioned, countries will likely go for F-16 or Gripen with the same price than they go for LCA.



Very true webby, its not a mindblogging plane, but a simple point defence fighter which can be made in numbers to replace the Mig-21s. Its not meant to take on the F-35s or hornets or anything thats 4.5 gens or more.

Well about it being pricey. Yeah it might be, but its our baby. Build by us ( with foriegn help) who have not a single mentionable history of making fughter jets of same capabilty. So even if we come close, we are happy as we would fair better when we make our next plane.


----------



## EagleEyes

Oh yes of course. The India government initially had a plan for MCA. Seems like looking at LCA, they trashed it.


----------



## Adux

DRDO has plans for MCA, Indian government does not; No funding was given by the government for the MCA. You can expect Funding to be released after the induction of the LCA. The viability of the MCA programme should be re-examined in the context of PAK-FA and a suitable role should be found for it.


----------



## Bull

WebMaster said:


> Oh yes of course. The India government initially had a plan for MCA. Seems like looking at LCA, they trashed it.



What made you believe so?


----------



## BATMAN

Bull said:


> Build by us ( with foriegn help) who have not a single mentionable history of making fughter jets of same capabilty. So even if we come close, we are happy as we would fair better *when we make our next plane*.


That would be 2030 (at-least) when India will make its next plane (with lot of foreign help).
Than you have to learn all again because the technology today will be obsolete in 23 years.
Any way, Its not to be discussed today and under this subject.


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> That would be 2030 (at-least) when India will make its next plane (with lot of foreign help).
> Than you have to learn all again because the technology today will be obsolete in 23 years.
> Any way, Its not to be discussed today and under this subject.



2015 is the year to be our next aircraft project


----------



## Adux

HAL speeds up LCA project
Saturday May 5 2007 00:00 IST 
BANGALORE: Even as the Parliamentary Standing Committee on the defence has pulled up the Defence Research and Development (DRDO) for delay in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas project, the Bangalore headquartered Defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is using all its resources to &#8220;speed-up&#8221; the prestigious project.

Despite time delays due to various reasons, the project has now entered the much-awaited production stage with the first Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft hitting the sky recently.

Two divisions at HAL, Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) and a LCA unit are working on the project. That apart, Line Replacement Units (LRU) which are significant in any aircraft programme, have also been set-up by a dedicated team at the PSU.

&#8220;Our challenge is to speed up the LCA project and we are putting all our resources to expedite the whole process,&#8221; HAL Chairman and Managing Director Ashok K Baweja told this website&#8217;s newspaper on Friday. &#8220;Four more platforms will be added by the end of the year and with that we will have more platforms to conduct the trials.&#8221;

Six LCAs, Technology Demonstrator I, II and PV I and II and first LSP aircraft are already flying. As on Friday, Tejas has completed 660 Test Flights (TD1-207, TD2-257, PV1-133, PV2-28, PV3-34, LSP1-1).

Adding more platforms will aid in conducting various tests simultaneously and expedite the process of getting Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and also the Final Operational Clearance. While IOC is expected by 2009, the final operational clearance is likely to come through by 2010.

The PSU, Baweja said, is working closely with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the project is being reviewed every month. Bangalore-based DRDO lab, ADA has designed and developed the LCA and HAL is now producing the aircraft.

It is not unusual of HAL to take initiatives to expedite the project as it has a commitment of delivering 28 aircraft, of them eight LSP aircraft to the IAF. Delay in delivering the aircraft to IAF will dent the PSU's image and the top brass at the PSU are not in a mood to take any chances.

In its report presented in the parliament on Friday, the Parliamentary Committee on the defence has insisted on a strict deadline to complete the project.
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE120070504133006


*This is great news, so by the end of the year there will 10 LCA's flying.*


----------



## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> 2015 is the year to be our next aircraft project



I think he is correct with what he understands. If you start by 2015, just like LCA. India should come up with a prototype in 2030.


----------



## Adux

Webby,

2007 India is very very different to what it was before.


----------



## EagleEyes

Of course. So is every country in the world. What is the news on the new project?


----------



## Adux

There aint much News, ADA has come up with Concept stage project proposal to the government. Dont expect it to be cleared before LCA achieve its IOC and FOC. 4 more LCA's to be built this year is a very very significant development. Which makes it 10 LCA's flying by the end of the year. I would expect the LCA to obtain FOC by 2010 if not before. 
I expect the MCA to be a fighter bomber in lines with Su-34, IAF currently seems to very interested in it for a single squadron requirement.


----------



## Adux

Vanila LCA







You can expect this pretty soon now


----------



## Adux

*Timeline of LCA.*
Note: Rs 1 crore = Rs 10 million, $1 = Rs 47

1985: LCA launched with a time frame of 10 years after the Union cabinet sanctioned Rs 560 crore for the project in 1983. Aeronautical Development Agency to be the nodal agency. 

1988: ADA prepares project definition phase (PDP) after consulting MBB, France, on some aspects. 

1990: Air HQ finds PDP deficient in crucial parameters. Expert committee formed to resolve deadlock. It is agreed that two technology demonstration aircraft to be built before investments cleared for production. 

1993: After three years of uncertainty, Phase 1 is sanctioned at a cost Rs 2,188 crore. Milestones include a roll out of first aircraft by 1995 and first flight by 1996. 

1995: Roll out does happen but there are serious doubts as to whether the first flight would occur as major problems bedevil flight control systems as well as mastery over composites. 

1998: With the aircraft far from ready, the US sanctions after Pokhran tests cause setbacks in flight control technologies and systems integration. 

1999: Low speed and high speed taxi trials are done. But flight trials delayed because of minor fire caused by overheating valve near cockpit. 

2001: First flight on January 4. More flights follow, including one on Feb 9 at Aero India 2001 [Bangalore, February 7 to 11]. It completes it's first block of tests on June 2. 


Within 10 days after the first flight, both MiG and Sukhoi Bureaus expressed desire for joint LCA manufacture. Deputy Prime Minister[Russia] Ilya Klebanov too brought up this issue during his visit to India. They also offered to co-operate with India to develop a 5th Generation fighter(LFI). Other 5th gen aircraft include USA's ATF F-22 Raptor and Joint Strike Fighter [JSF]. 
LCA completed its first batch of tests in 12 flights instead of 15 - ahead of schedule - on June 2, 2001. TD-1 was subsequently sent for further modifications including advanced flight controls software as well as extended range of flight endurance. 
For TD-1's block of first 12 flights: 
Max Velocity: 610 km/h(0.71 Mach) 
Max Altitude: 8 km 
Max Angle of Attack: 18 degrees

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for Limited Series Production of Indian LCA. 8 aircraft are to be delivered by 2006. 

2002: The TD-2 (KH2002) flies for 30 mins on 6.jun.2002. It is piloted by Wing Commander Tarun Banerjee.


India now has 4 pilots who have flown the LCA. Wing Commander Kothiyal flew the first six on TD-1, Wg. Cdr. Nambiar piloted the TD-1 on the next six flights. Wg. Cdr. Banerjee flew the TD-2 on its first 4 flights. "I think it's going to be an aircraft that our fighter pilots are going to love", he remarked after the first one. Sqd Ldr Sunith Krishna flew for the first time in the LCA on the TD-2's 5th flight. 
Following TD-2's first flight, Kota Harinarayan left ADA for a stint at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore. M.B.Verma took over as Programme Director. 


Along with the LCA, India is also developing aircraft like Saras, a 14 seater civilian turboprop aeroplane, Hansa trainer and Intermediate Jet Trainer [IJT]. The sub-sonic IJT, whose first flight should take place in 2002, will replace the aged Kiran jet trainers. IJT shares some 100 parts with the LCA. The IAF has placed orders for 225 such aircraft which cost $5 million a piece.

The real work on LCA was only started on 1993 which makes it only 14 years old, till then it was just discussions and paperwork...


----------



## BATMAN

Adux said:


> *2015 is the year to be our next aircraft project*





Adux said:


> HAL speeds up LCA project
> Saturday May 5 2007 00:00 IST
> BANGALORE: ...... *the final operational clearance is likely to come through by 2010*.



*No Comments!*


----------



## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Vanila LCA
> You can expect this pretty soon now



What a day that would be..... 
Pretty looking bird, though.


----------



## Fishbed

> BATMAN's Sig:JF-17s have F-22 Raptor influenced nose, Rafael influenced tail, F-18 hornet influenced LEX, F-16 falcon/viper influenced fusalage, F-35 influenced DSI
> 
> JF-17 will... ROCK U...
> Thunder will... ROCKU...



Are you serious or joking?  So Chinese engineers have stopped copying complete Russian planes and have started copying bits and pieces of western aircraft instead?


----------



## BATMAN

Fishbed said:


> Are you serious or joking?  So Chinese engineers have stopped copying complete Russian planes and have started copying bits and pieces of western aircraft instead?


If Pakistan join hands, than it can be damn serious and nothing is impossible.  
BTW, which Russian copy are you reffering to. 
J-10 dosn't look like Russian copy to me.
Some body tell me what is Indeginous Indian product.


----------



## Fishbed

BATMAN said:


> If Pakistan join hands, than it can be damn serious and nothing is impossible.
> *BTW, which Russian copy are you reffering to.*
> J-10 dosn't look like Russian copy to me.
> *Some body tell me what is Indeginous Indian product.*



Russian copies: J-5,J-6,J-7,J-8, J-11...I cant name them all, you can see for yourself on Sinodefence.

Indigenous Indian Aircraft: HF-24, LCA, Dhruv helicopter.


----------



## BATMAN

Fishbed said:


> *Russian copies*: J-5,J-6,J-7,J-8, J-11...I cant name them all, you can see for yourself on Sinodefence.
> 
> Indigenous Indian Aircraft: HF-24, LCA, Dhruv helicopter.



Now you have started writting nonsense, where did you read that those are Russian copies.
There is some thing called liscence production, go learn about it.
India also have liscence produced mig21.

   Never again mention LCA as 'indigenous India aircraft' specially on this forum, it seems you need to catch up a lot. Go read the whole thread you will get lot of answers.


----------



## Adux

Batman,

You cannot re-export Licence Production, Check with F-7 issue. Its a MIG-21 copy, which the russians havent authourized. Please go read about it.


----------



## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Batman,
> 
> You cannot re-export Licence Production, Check with F-7 issue. Its a MIG-21 copy, which the russians havent authourized. Please go read about it.



I don't think the re-export was being talked about rather just license for production. Those Indian planes/helo's mentioned above are not indeginious either using Israeli/Russian/western parts to make them fly or even come close to working.


----------



## Adux

Sniper, 

They are not, but India is not re-exporting them to different countries in a different name are they?
About Quality of Indian Planes...lol..good flame bait...


----------



## EagleEyes

Fishbed said:


> Are you serious or joking?  So Chinese engineers have stopped copying complete Russian planes and have started copying bits and pieces of western aircraft instead?



I am glad that troll got banned again.  

Do i remind you that LCA is a bad carbon copy of Gripen? Sweden and India is already discussing this issue.


----------



## Adux

WebMaster said:


> I am glad that troll got banned again.
> 
> Do i remind you that LCA is a bad carbon copy of Gripen? Sweden and India is already discussing this issue.



Web Admin...the TROLL..lol

LCA and Gripen too much credit compare it with Mirage 2000


----------



## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> Web Admin...the TROLL..lol
> 
> LCA and Gripen too much credit compare it with Mirage 2000



 It would be a good idea to create a thread on it.


----------



## Neo

WebMaster said:


> I am glad that troll got banned again.
> 
> Do i remind you that LCA is a bad carbon copy of Gripen? Sweden *and India is already discussing this issue.*


Are they?
Do you have a full report Webby, I'd like to read more.


----------



## Sgt. Automatic

Hi, I am new here. So I would like to congradulate India on LCA, although it might not be a success just yet, in the coming years it will serve India's needs in air defence. Once this plane matures and the bugs are fixed, this plane would be effective against Pakistan Airforce's attacks only if its deployed in large numbers. But for now LCA is not as capable and Pakistan not need worry. One point I would add would be that LCA even when its through this phase, will still be inferior to JF-17. But like I said, LCA would be very good for maritim patrol and missions of this sort. IAF's got other planes to counter JF-17, but then again PAF's getting new planes to counter those planes. Its just a crazy arms race.


----------



## Contrarian

LCA on paper and the prototypes developed are FAR FAR superior in terms of technology to the JF-17.


----------



## EagleEyes

malaymishra123 said:


> LCA on paper and the prototypes developed are FAR FAR superior in terms of technology to the JF-17.



Tell us what is superior than JF-17?  Other than the cost of the plane.


----------



## Contrarian

Um....lets start from the BASICS...the airframe is superior...it uses composites. LCA plans to use 45% composites on the airframe.

Webby, all you need to do is google once about LCA's specs, and you will find the flood of information.


----------



## EagleEyes

Yes, of course yaar. But i would rather have a read from you. So composites? Thats it? How does the composites help the fighter compare to the traditional usage in the airframes in all fighters (F-16, F-18, F-16, JF-17, J-10, Eurofighter, Rafale, etc..) other than being light. It all comes down to the payload, and what significant higher payload does LCA really have when compared to the JF-17? It all comes down Gnat and Sabre.


----------



## Adux

Webby,

RCS Reduction, Composites are Radar Absorbing Materials as well as stronger and lighter than metal , Therefore lower signature(harder detect) on the Radar. Check Last two pages. I have already given the pictures of the composites areas, If you check the NatGeo LCA Video posted here, You will see how Composites are used, and how they are made in India.

F-16, F-18, Mig-29K,EuroFighter and Rafale uses composites, the degree varies from different aircraft. It is calculated by Weight as well as Surface Area. Read Up. Carbon Composites are also used Ferrari Enzo and other High End cars to reduce Weight, and form a stronger body


----------



## Adux

I cant seem to find the NatGeo video, it is taken of youtube,

here is a very very old DD Video on LCA

Composites are explained as well as the manufacturing process shown

[YOUTUBE]


----------



## Contrarian

Composites apart from reducing weight also play a major part in reducing the RCS of the plane.The plane has greater thrust, etc, etc. Composites are a VITAL part in any new plane.

Among the most significant breakthrough is the use of advance carbon composites for more than 40% of the LCA air frame, including wings, fin and fuselage. Apart from making it much lighter, there are less joints or rivets making the aeroplane more reliable. Fatigue strength studies on computer models optimise performance. National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) has played a lead role. Materials include Aluminium - Lithium alloys , Titanium alloy and Carbon compositites. Composities for wing (skin , spars and ribs ) fuselage (doors and skins), elevons, fin, rudder, airbrakes and landing gear doors.

The use of composites results in a 40 per cent reduction in the total number of parts (if the LCA were built using a metallic frame): For instance, 3,000 parts in a metallic design would come down to 1,800 parts in a composite design. The number of fasteners has been reduced to half in the composite structure from 10,000 in the metallic frame. The composite design helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Though the weight comes down by 21 per cent, the most interesting prediction is the time it will take to assemble the LCA -- the airframe that takes 11 months to build can be done in seven months using composites.



EW systems then....EW component has been codeveloped with Israel. The pod is called Mayavi. Israel developed this pod, so it would be fitted on the JSF and LCA for India.

Payload of LCA is 4000Kg vs JF-17's 3500-3700 Kg.
Range of LCA-850 km, what is the range of JF-17?


----------



## Adux

Malay please specify for our Pakistani friends that 850Km is the combat radius,


----------



## Adux

Bringing down the Weight, increase thrust to weight ratio, therefore providing better fuel efficiency, which inturn increases the range.


----------



## Sgt. Automatic

Technically, if this jet performs as good in real life as on paper then this would be a major break through for India. Considering that its light and small, could mean better manuvarbility, and it would be harder to spot (to some degree). But one thing that really surprises me as a NEUTRAL OBSERVER is this:

Its a well known fact and US's closest ally is Israel. But none the less, in a situation of war or sales in this case, your own country comes first, US stoped the funding of the Israeli Lavi project, once they figured out that the Lavi could match with F-16 if not better, plus it would be cheaper, a bit newer technology and so on. They took care of themselfs first and stopped the funding to keep the status of F-16's. Now I don't see why US would provide engines for the LSA, if they new that this jet was going to be "superior" to most aircraft in their inventory, or equal to JSF. (Please note these speculations are made on paper). The jet is good but definatly not as good as it looks on paper. Its already a breakthrough that India has made a jet by themselves, but high hopes such as stealth and the lot is not a very good idea, because once they figure out that LCA can't perform as good as we thought and read on the paper, no one is going to like it. But LCA lays the foundation for better jets in the future.


----------



## Adux

Sgt. Automatic

LCA is nowhere near the US jet capability like the F-35/JSF. Its just not comparable. It is a good fighter, a lot of good technology but a 5th gen fighter; it is not. It is not stealth by design, but composites. JSF/ F-22 are on other hand is designed for stealth. Some of the LCA features will be amazing, thats all. An aircarft with another aircraft is compared according to its role and era. For example you can compare an F-15 to Su-30 but not a MiG-31. so on and so forth. You want to compare the LCA, compare it with the Gripen.

US already provides these engines for the Gripen, ie Gripen uses Ge-404, and they have no problem with selling them to India. Lavi example is a very good one, but times have changed.


----------



## Sgt. Automatic

Its possible that US doesn't care about other countries aquiring Gen 4 jets, maybe becuase they now have Gen 5 jets, if thats what you mean by "times have changed". One thing I would like to point is that LCA was never kept secret, whats on paper now was still there years ago. But this is one of the reasons I said that LCA might be inferior to JF-17 is becuase Pakistan waited for LCA to emerge and then give the specifications for JF-17, this is one of the reasons along with that JF-17 is as capable as F-16 A/B. But one thing is for sure that LCA and JF-17 haven't matured yet. It might be that JF-17 will take longer to mature than the LCA simply becuase LCA was made earlier. So for now I even feel foolish saying that JF-17 is superiro to LCA, we will just have to wait till they mature and have specified weapons platform.


----------



## Sgt. Automatic

Adux said:


> Sgt. Automatic
> 
> LCA is nowhere near the US jet capability like the F-35/JSF. Its just not comparable. It is a good fighter, a lot of good technology but a 5th gen fighter; it is not. It is not stealth by design, but composites. JSF/ F-22 are on other hand is designed for stealth. Some of the LCA features will be amazing, thats all. An aircarft with another aircraft is compared according to its role and era. For example you can compare an F-15 to Su-30 but not a MiG-31. so on and so forth. You want to compare the LCA, compare it with the Gripen.
> 
> US already provides these engines for the Gripen, ie Gripen uses Ge-404, and they have no problem with selling them to India. Lavi example is a very good one, but times have changed.



I know my post was confusing. I would never make such speculations as JSF vs LCA, its just that I read that somewhere and alot of LCA fans are bringing it up over and over again. I think it was me who said that LCA is inferior to JF-17, and JF-17 is way inferior to newer versions of F-16 (MLU) etc. So in other words LCA is inferior to F-16 which are nowhere close to F-22. I don't know if this clears anything.


----------



## Adux

Again,

LCA vs F-16 MLU, is a question of engagement zone. I dont view JF-17 superior to LCA, rahter is superior to JF-17. You can Start from FBW(LCA is a full Quad while jf-17 is analog/digi combo), composites(see video), Engine(GE-404), RCS, etc Now I know my facts pretty well, and I know where a discussion on this will lead. So I will take my leave. 

Adu


----------



## Neo

Adu, why are you so focused on composites? 
I know modern jets use a lot of composites and it makes the plance lighter but not superior per definition.
Just curious.


----------



## Adux

Composites, 

Lighter airframe creating better thrust to weight ratio which in turn gives a better range cuz of fuel efficency on cruise mode, No corrosion, Radar absorbing which gives lower print on enemy radar, Lesser joints therefore lesser fatigue.


----------



## Neo

And very high maintenance. One sigle crack and you have to replace the whole section of the surface.


----------



## Adux

No actually it is low maintance(reason why it is used F1, SuperCars), cuz the pausibility of it happening to a surface that is stronger than metal is very low in peace time also it has no corrosion. But it takes lower amount time to fix it also. Its a next generation Technology which very new aircraft is employing, so it is definitly worth the money


----------



## Keysersoze

Composites are good and have many positive features, but will add substantively to the price. However if there are any errors in production it can create big problems. Not as likely in prototypes but in mass production it will cause problems.

I think the wingless delta is a crappy design so it doesn't really matter what it is made off.


----------



## Adux

Keysersoze said:


> I think the wingless delta is a crappy design



I dont think that really matters


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> I dont think that really matters



I think it matters a hell of a lot. There is a reason why no one is using that kind of design anymore. Which aircraft will the LCA replace again?


----------



## Adux

Its a point defence fighter, Its a replacing the MiG-21 , Delta's are better for strike anyways, Strike is going to be taken care of by the MMRCA and Su-30MKI now.
Tail less Delta's inherent instability used as an advantage using the Qaud FBW, therefore better manoveribility in the LCA


----------



## con

Keysersoze said:


> I think it matters a hell of a lot. There is a reason why no one is using that kind of design anymore. Which aircraft will the LCA replace again?



Keys,
You would like to read this.Interesting discussion between two guys called IndianFighter and Safdar.Could answer a lot of questions regarding delta design on LCA.
Needless to say ignore the rants,just concentrate on these guys. very technical stuff .


http://**************************/index.php?showtopic=63129&st=160

a rare technical discussion on PDF


----------



## Keysersoze

link doesn't work here for various reasons lol give me the "highlights" here?
I have read another interesting discussion on another forum re this as well.


----------



## con

The discussion is quite long. Kind of difficult to post highlight .Extremely sorry about that.

But then you use this link ...

Hope this works!


----------



## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Composites,
> 
> Lighter airframe creating better thrust to weight ratio which in turn gives a better range cuz of fuel efficency on cruise mode, No corrosion, Radar absorbing which gives lower print on enemy radar, Lesser joints therefore lesser fatigue.



Better fuel efficiency cannot be simply described in plain words.
It all depends on selecting the engine size in ratio with load, selecting an engine with much higher power than load will have low efficiency. Hence to find (off the shelf) a jet engine for un-convential load can be a challenge.
Even paints can be equally radar absorbing.
BTW, there are radars in the market which can spot even the advance stelath aircrafts.
Lesser joints can be a positive aspect but perhaps joint fatigues are not very common threat to modern conventional fighter jets.


----------



## Keysersoze

con said:


> The discussion is quite long. Kind of difficult to post highlight .Extremely sorry about that.
> 
> But then you use this link ...
> http://tinyurl.com/2ev625
> 
> Hope this works!



Yeah dude that was interesting to read however it went round in circles lol.... and the guy who was a qualified in the area seemed to be quite certain that the tail-less delta was a bad design.

And the quote from FAS was interesting...

The delta wing has a number of limitations. Delta-winged aircraft have a long take-off run, since flaps are not practical as they would simply force the nose down; high landing speed; limited manoeuvrability; and suffer from buffeting at low altitude, due to the large wing area and resulting low wing loading. However, the delta is a simple and pleasing design, easily built and robust, capable of high speed in a straight line, and with plenty of space in the wing for fuel storage. 

Also the low g-loads were quite telling.


----------



## ahussains

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah dude that was interesting to read however it went round in circles lol.... and the guy who was a qualified in the area seemed to be quite certain that the tail-less delta was a bad design.
> 
> And the quote from FAS was interesting...
> 
> The delta wing has a number of limitations. Delta-winged aircraft have a long take-off run, since flaps are not practical as they would simply force the nose down; high landing speed; limited manoeuvrability; and suffer from buffeting at low altitude, due to the large wing area and resulting low wing loading. However, the delta is a simple and pleasing design, easily built and robust, capable of high speed in a straight line, and with plenty of space in the wing for fuel storage.
> 
> Also the low g-loads were quite telling.



Buddy you r direct hitting the indians they never accept these limation about the Delta wings they try to prove you this Aircraft is the most advance and the efficent aircarft of today and belong to some 4.5 genration catagory and some time its abilities are match up with the F-22 

Sorry i say any thing worng


----------



## Adux

What wing design will you suggest for a Point defense fighter,


----------



## Adux

*Tejas to experiment with Israeli avionics and weapons *
16 May, 2007 (FIDSNS)

As an intreme measure to speed up operationalizing the Light Combat Aircraft &#8220;Tejas,&#8221; India might consider Israeli Multimode radar and weapons. In an exclusive to FIDSNS the sources said that the last series of Limited Series Production (LSP) will be experimented for weaponisation. 

In a written reply to parliament on May 16, 2007, the defence minister mentioned &#8220;M/s ELTA, Israel is the lowest bidder in response to a Request for Proposal (RFP) issued for procurement of some radars for the Indian Air Force. However, no contract has been signed with the firm.&#8221;

More at *****************


----------



## niaz

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah dude that was interesting to read however it went round in circles lol.... and the guy who was a qualified in the area seemed to be quite certain that the tail-less delta was a bad design.
> 
> And the quote from FAS was interesting...
> 
> The delta wing has a number of limitations. Delta-winged aircraft have a long take-off run, since flaps are not practical as they would simply force the nose down; high landing speed; limited manoeuvrability; and suffer from buffeting at low altitude, due to the large wing area and resulting low wing loading. However, the delta is a simple and pleasing design, easily built and robust, capable of high speed in a straight line, and with plenty of space in the wing for fuel storage.
> 
> Also the low g-loads were quite telling.



As someone who has studied a little bit of fluid dymanics; you are right about a tail less delta. 
It would theortically need longer take off and landing speed and you would need to reduce the speed really low to turn it in tight circles.

However delta wing has considerable advantages as well. Mirage series have proved this. Initially Mirage 111 had a jet assissted take off to overcome high take off speed problem and that is why it was never adopted for the carrier use. Swedes pioneered delta/double delta and canards for fighter aircraft. Even J10 has delta with canards. Any brand new aircraft such as LCA is designed to meet stated targets. Obviously, advanatges of a delta wing must over ride its short comings else why would so many newer aircraft designs use this.

This doesnot mean LCA is better only question is ' Would LCA do what it was supposed to do'??.


----------



## Adux

Sir,

How exactly does the Quadruplex FBW, use the inherent unstability of the delta config to the aircraft's advantage. The main reason for the LCA going Delta is this.


----------



## niaz

Adux said:


> Sir,
> 
> How exactly does the Quadruplex FBW, use the inherent unstability of the delta config to the aircraft's advantage. The main reason for the LCA going Delta is this.



Stability is related to where the centre of gravity of the aircraft is located and not necessarilly linked to Delta shape. For example Mirage 111 and Mig 21 are delta but stable. F-16 is not delta but unstable. Inherently unstable means that it wont fly in straight line if all controls are lost. Any unstable shape implies that it will change direction more easily ( monuverable) but would drop out of the sky if FBW controls stop working. It would be virtually impossible to fly without FBW. Quadruple FBW only means that there are 4 FBW control systems which gives a lot of redudancy giving assurance that it will keep on flying even if one FBW syustem is working.


----------



## Adux

Sir,

There are other proven design, like the tri-plane's in the sukhoi's; But they didnt use that..EF, J-10, Rafale, Mirage etc etc are all pure delta's; The question is WHY go for a Delta design with all its flaws. What I am getting at is; How does this design help the role intended for the LCA ie a Point Defense Fighter.


----------



## niaz

Adux said:


> Sir,
> 
> There are other proven design, like the tri-plane's in the sukhoi's; But they didnt use that..EF, J-10, Rafale, Mirage etc etc are all pure delta's; The question is WHY go for a Delta design with all its flaws. What I am getting at is; How does this design help the role intended for the LCA ie a Point Defense Fighter.




IMO every wing and shape design has its pro's and con's. Also since most grass roots designs such as LCA are a compromise to meet ' terms of reference', as long as the plane meets all the designed objectives, which by the way also incudes cost per unit; does it make a difference what shape its wing is??. 

An example is that both yf-16 and y-f18 were originally designed to meet a US Defence 'RFP' ( request for proposals) mainly to replace heavy and big fighters such as F-4 and F-14. After these two designs were short listed and prototype flown against each other in a comptition. USAF opted for F-16 and USN went for F-18. 

Why chose a delta wing??. May be the the chief of the design bureau has a liking for Delta. Swept wing has also inherent design flaws, it is an age old debate. Wish I knew the answer.


----------



## Adux

Sir,

I just found some info on the Avro Arrow which is also a Tail less delta and very good one at that. It got some good judgements on the design like

*"There is no well-defined stall for a tailless delta and this is perhaps the outstanding feature. It permits flying the airplane to much lower speeds compared to straight or sweptback wings. Minimum speed is usually determined by sink rate and/or minimum control." 

Ground Effect - (An aircraft experiences an increase in lift when flying very close to the ground, caused by a distorted airflow or air cushion; this disappears when the aircraft is a half wingspan above the ground.)*
http://www.exn.ca/flight/avro_arrow/story.asp?id=1999062869


----------



## Adux

LCA is the smallest light weight multirole combat aircraft in the world. Incorporating state-of-the-art technologies in every aspect of design and development, this single-seat single-engine tactical fighter from India is among the best in the world. 


LCA is India's first modern fighter aircraft, designed specifically to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force. LCA brings together decades of scientific and technological research in this country. From test facilities to computer simulation and composite materials to digital flight control system, world class technologies have been established in the country for the LCA programme. These form the foundation for future combat aircraft projects of India. Development work on a fully operational LCA trainer version and an LCA naval version capable of operation from aircraft carriers are presently on hand.



Aero Dynamics


LCA aerodynamic configuration has been evolved to meet the demands of modern combat. Extensive wind tunnel testing on scale models and complex computational fluid dynamic analyses have optimised the aerodynamic configuration of LCA, giving it minimum supersonic drag, low wing loading and high rates of roll & pitch.


_The tailless compound delta planform helps in keeping LCA small and light. It also means fewer control surfaces, wider choice of external stores and better close combat, high-speed and high-alpha characteristics._


_LCA has been designed to be unstable. Relaxed static stability gives improved aerodynamic efficiency and enhanced agility and manoeuvrability._


The wing shielded side mounted bifurcated Y-duct air intake with optimised diverter configuration ensures buzz free air supply to the engine, at acceptable distortion levels.

A number of aerodynamic devices have been developed to further improve aerodynamic efficiency and performance of LCA.

AIRFRAME & ALL-weather capability 


_Advanced composites constitute more than 40% of the LCA airframe including wings, fin and fuselage, resulting in significant weight reduction. Co-cured cobonded technology for fuselage components, fin, rudder, elevons, airbrake and landing gear doors has ensured cost-effectiveness. The radome is made of Kevlar. The airframe has been strengthened to withstand high 'g' manoeuvres during close combat. Static and fatigue strength studies on finite element models, and aeroservoelastic studies have optimised the airframe for high strength and durability._


LCA is designed for active combat in any adverse weather condition. The composite materials used for airframe construction, and all the software driven processor based electronics need to be protected from lightning strikes. Lightning protection schemes have been developed based on high-voltage and high-current tests in the Lightning Test Facility set up at Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS).

Power Plant & Fuel System


LCA will be powered by a low bypass augmented turbofan Kaveri engine developed by Gas Turbine Research Establishment. This features a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control Unit and a flat rated thrust at high ambient temperatures to enhance combat power. A jet fuel starter is used to start the engine on the ground, and also for relighting during flight.Fuel tanks are integrated into the fuselage and wings. For extended range, additional 800 lt / 1200 lt fuel tanks are carried at midboard / inboard wing stations and also at centreline station under the fuselage. The inflight refuelling probe further extends the range and endurance.

Weapon System


For a modern combat aircraft, successful deployment of weapons is its primary misssion. LCA is a precision weapon launch platform with multirole capability.


A choice of three hard points below each wing, and one under the fuselage gives considerable flexibility to carry a variety of missiles, bombs and rockets, as per mission requirements : air-to-air, air-to-ground or air-to-sea. High manoeuvrability and carefree handling capability of the aircraft combined with advanced cockpit, digital avionics and weapon system interface give LCA very good point and shoot capability with quick turn around time.


Effective pilot-vehicle interface for easy interpretation of targets, a host of sensors ensuring early threat detection and a low visual signature give LCA an upper hand in close air combat. Supersonic speeds at all altitudes and the availability of high performance radar give effective Beyond Visual Range (BVR) attack capability to LCA.For futher enhancing mission effectiveness and multirole capability, additional sensors for guidance, navigation, reconnaissance and electronic warfare are carried.

Avionics


Avionics plays a major role in a modern combat aircraft. The Integrated Digital Avionics Suite of LCA is characterised by its interface with all other aircraft systems such as Utility Systems Management System (USMS), Proplsion System, Electrical System and Flight control System.
LCA Avionics architecture is configured around a three bus system (MIL-STD-1553B) in a distributed environment. The heart of the system is a 32-bit Mission Computer (MC) which performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for mission computer software.Accurate navigation and guidance is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration. Jam resistant radio commumication system with advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) environment. In the EW suite, Electromagnetic and Electroptic receivers and jammers provide the necessary "soft-kill" capability.





Cockpit & Radar


The new-generation glass cokpit of LCA incorporates latest Avionics systems and an effective pilot-vehicle interface. Two Multi Function Displays present required information to the pilot. Critical information required in close combat situations is flashed onto the Head Up Display. Hands on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) concept ensures availability of every control needed during a critical combat situation, right under the fingers of the pilot. 




A bubble canopy provides excellent all-round view to the pilot, which is very critical during close air-to-air combat.The advanced multi-mode radar takes care of detection, tracking, terrain avoidance and delivery of guided weapons. The track-while-scan feature keeps track of multiple targets and also allows simultaneous multiple target engagement. Pulse-Doppler gives the look-down shoot-down capability. Ground mapping feature, frequency agility and other ECCM techniques make the radar truly state-of-the-art.


The Environmental Control System (ECS) is designed to give a high degree of comfort to the pilot and to provide adequate cooling to all onboard electronic systems. The compressed air for pressurisation of cockpit, radar and fuel tank is also supplied by ECS. 

Flight Control System


Digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System is another advanced feature of LCA. The unstable configuration of LCA demands a highly efficient Integrated Flight Control System (IFCS) to fly the aircraft. Control law resident in the flight control computer synthesises inputs from pilot's stick and rudder pedals with flight parameters from inertial and airdata measurements to generate commands to the actuators that move various control surfaces. The design of the control law is evaluated susing real-time flight simulator for acceptable flight handling qualities. The IFCS ensures stability, agility, manoeuvrability and carefree handling over the entire operating envelope of LCA. The Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) is the heart of IFCS, and uses a quadruplex redundant system to achieve high reliability and safety.


Independent Verification and Validation (IV&V) activity is an integral part of the Software development process. From requirement specification to final testing, IV&V ensures correctness, consistency, completeness and adherence to MIL standards of the software.


The flight control system along with all the associated software is tested and validated at the iron-bird rig.



http://www.ada.gov.in/Activities/lca/lca.html


----------



## niaz

On paper it appears to be very good. I hope Kaveri engine is upto the job. Does India have sufficient experience designing Jet engines ab initio or this engine is based upon a proven US Engine ???


----------



## Bull

niaz said:


> On paper it appears to be very good. I hope Kaveri engine is upto the job. Does India have sufficient experience designing Jet engines ab initio or this engine is based upon a proven US Engine ???



It doesnt. And thats why its looking for co-operation. Snecma is one of the constestants for the deal.


----------



## con

There seems to be issues with weigth for th current design. It was heavier than intended.
There is a need for high end materials to bring the weigth down to acceptable levels.

Add to this read in some reports that they were able to achieve the thrust level up to 90-95% of the planned specification.


----------



## Adux

niaz said:


> On paper it appears to be very good. I hope Kaveri engine is upto the job. Does India have sufficient experience designing Jet engines ab initio or this engine is based upon a proven US Engine ???



No sir, It is compeletly new design, Its is going to take a long time, Its going to take some time before they make it work, I expect the atleat the first two squadrons to be Ge-404.


----------



## Contrarian

*Air Force To Deploy First LCA Tejas Squadron in Tamil Nadu By 2010*

The first squadron of the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) named Tejas will be deployed down south in Tamil Nadu, when the first batch of the 20 fighter aircrafts are expected to be inducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2009-2010.

The IAF is zeroing on three places Thanjavur , Sulur and Tiruchirapalli for its possible deployment highlighting the new strategic concerns in Indian establishment 's regarding country's security, particularly with the growing importance of Indian Ocean region and the maritime security.

Sources in IAF said that Tiruchirapalli could be the place for possible deployment of Tejas, which are expected to replace the MIG-21 aircraft, which have been phased out.

However, the IAF also remained sceptical that the much delayed LCA will stick to its renewed schedule, as Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)- an autonomous society under the Department of Defence Research and Development (DRDO) working on the LCA project- has been failing to meet the deadline for years.

Last month, Chief of the Southern Air Command, Air Marshal Y.R. Rane had publicly told of moving more 'combat assets' to south India.

Air Marshal Rane had then hinted at developing air base in Thanjavur for hosting long-range multirole fighter aircraft, such as Sukhoi-30.

The LCA project, which was initiated in 1983, has failed to meet its deadline three times, and the first test flight was conducted as late as 2001.

The untimely delay and the persisting 'certain complexities' as stated by the DRDO in Tejas, have raised doubts in the IAF, which placed the orders for only 20 aircrafts instead of 220 as envisaged by the ADA.

The initial operation clearance (IOC) for the LCA, expected to be conducted next year, will be keenly watched by everyone as the fate of the LCA's induction into the IAF and subsequently into Indian Navy will depend on this.

The single seater-single engine supersonic light-weight multi-role combat aircraft will be powered by US F404-GE-IN20 engine and advanced electronically scanned phased-array (AESA) radar of Russia.

The IOC followed by full operation clearance will put to test any glitches in aircraft's aerodynamic, aero-mechanical, combustion and structural Integrity, apart from its avionics software.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3239


----------



## BATMAN

I read the article but couldn't figure out who issued this informtion?
Is it official news or individual analysis?


----------



## joey

LCA to be equipped with VTAS, so far F22/Typhoon have em.







Check this,

http://www.acig.org/exclusives/LCA/ACIG_Exclusives_Tejas.html


----------



## joey

> AERO-Elastic tests
> 
> Dr.Upadhya is one of the few specialists in the country in the multi-disciplinary field of Aeroelasticity. His major contributions to Aerospace research and development and industry, many of them as first in the country are listed below :
> 
> (i) Transonic buffet Testing of Launch Vehicle Models at NAL, Bangalore .
> 
> Transonic buffet is a serious problem for launch vehicles with bulbous nose and strap-on boosters. The problem is not amenable for easy mathematical modelling because of the complex nature of the unsteady, aerodynamic flow involving shack-boundary layer interaction and flow separation. Hence the problem was studied by aeroelastic modelling and testing in wind tunnel scaled aeroelastic models simulating the external aerodynamic shape and structural dynamic characteristics were designed and built. The model was supported internally on specially designed flexible spring&#8212;moments on a wing tunnel sting so as to simulate free-free dynamic behaviour of the vehicle. The model was instrumental and calibrated to measure dynamic bending moment distribution in the vehicle in its vibration modes due to aerodynamic buffet excitation in the wind tunnel. The wind tunnel tests in the transonic regime in the NAL 1.2 m transonic tunnel yielded valuable data on the dynamic structure to buffet and adequacy of structural design. Such models and tests were done for the first time in India for ASLV by Dr.Upadhya which were later adapted by NAL for PSLV and GSLV buffet testing. VSSC was very appreciative of the effort.
> 
> Earlier to this, Dr.Upadhya was involved as a member of the tests at NAL in the SLV-3 body divergence and fin-flutter modelling and testing.
> 
> Aeroelastic Design studies on LCA
> 
> Aeroelastic interactions played a major role in the design of LCA as it employs many advanced technologies such as carbon fibre composites in its airframe, digital fly-by-wire flight control systems, unstable and dynamic configurations etc. which cause interaction between aerodynamic, structural dynamics and control systems dynamics affecting loads, flutter, FCS stability and response etc. Dr.Upadhya ked a team of engineers which analysed these problems in a very detailed manner and gave valuable inputs for design and certification.
> 
> Maneuver Loads for structural design
> 
> Manueuver loads computations were done synthesising steady aerodynamics inputs from CFD Wind tunnel test group, Finite element model and mass data. Effort of aeroelastic differentiation on the air loads differentiation was taken into account. Hundreds of load cases were guaranteed correspond to cover points of load envelopes and during flight conditions out of the a few critical ones, from design point of view were selected for using new selection procedure based on weighting function approach for detail design/optimisation. Finally, elaborate design slate on aeroelastic efficiency on aerodynamic derivation were generated for use by control law design groups.
> 
> Aeroelasticty tailoring of CFC wing skins.
> 
> Aeroelastic losses in control effectiveness is very significant in combat aircraft. Attempts to decrease the losses leads to weight penalty. However, with composite skins, an opportunity to tailor the number of layups in the chosen films directions in the different regions of wing was available and this was effectively utilised in the structural optimisation process, thus meeting the weight targets and control requirement simultaneously.\
> 
> Tests Analysis.
> 
> Analysis of structure control aerodynamic interactions became very important in LCA due to the reasons mentioned above. An integral ASE model was developed using component models from structural FE vibration analysis, unsteady aerodynamic Actuator dynamics, FCS dynamics etc. Detailed response calculations at the motion sensor locations were done in the frequency domain, determining structural mode participation in the response. Extensive parametric studies were conducted to get full envelopes of the gains and phase response. This data was used by the control law team for preliminary design of NFs. Such analysis was used for extrapolation or read across of data for tests to internal configurations.
> 
> Testing full scale flight for vibrations and structural control coupling evaluation.
> 
> Analytical prediction methods for these aero-servo elastic interactions have been developed by the team at ADA . However, they are not adequate for airworthiness certification. Specialised tests on the full aircraft are called for to asses the structure control coupling characteristics and take remedial action to suppress this coupling. Such specialised tests are Ground vibration Test and Structural coupling Tests for generation of relevant design data and alter for certification. These tests were successfully conducted on LCA by a team of ADA Scientists led by Dr.A.R.Upadhya.
> 
> The Ground Vibration Test (GVT) was conducted to evolve the modal vibration characteristics of the aircraft which formed the basis for all interactions with FCS and unsteady aerodynamics. This involved exciting the aircraft with electro-dynamic shakers located on wings, fuselage and fin, and acquisition and analysis of response data on the aircraft at nearly 250 locations using accelerometers. A state-of-the-art multi-input multi-output (MIMO) GVT system was used for this purpose. A novel technique of suspending the aircraft on rubber bunge cords from a rigid suspension rig to simulate free flight condition was used. Perhaps, for the first time in aircraft development, random excitation technique was used in testing. This saved valuable test-time and avoided fatigue damage. It also made possible extraction of all the modal data from a single test. The test results were extensively compared with analytical predictions of the team, showing good correlation.
> 
> The Structural Coupling Test (SCT) was conducted in two phases. The first phase(SCT1) involved &#8216;Aircraft Identification&#8217; wherein the coupling of structural vibration response with the aircraft motion response as measured by the FCS sensors was characterised. This test generated data for the design of notch filters to be implemented in the Flight control Computer(FCC) to suppress undesirable response. After implementation of the notch filters in the FCC, the second phase of the test (SCT2) was conducted to verify that adequate gain and phase margins were represented at the structural mode frequencies. Both these tests involved excitation of the primary control surface actuators through the FCC using sweep sine excitation, and measurement of the frequency response characteristics of the aircraft motion sensor responses or the actuators demand signal from the FCC. In order to overcome a likely situation of poor signal to noise ratio in the actuator demand signal due to the presence of the notch filters, an innovative technique of profiling the excitation signal amplitude was used in the tests.
> 
> The highlights of the work are:
> 
> 1. Conducted for the first time in the country perhaps only second or third in the world.
> 
> 2. Tests done on a flight standard aircraft
> 
> 3. Extensive and efficient coordination with several design groups involving airframe, FCS on-board and ground based systems.
> 
> 4. Development of the computer controlled Ground Check-out System(GCS) for definition, execution and control of tests and on-line data analysis and display.
> 
> 5. Ensuring safety of aircraft during tests using a specially developed Loads Monitoring System and FCS Health Monitoring
> 
> 6. Extensive post-test data analysis and synthesis and correlation with computational predictions.
> 
> 7. Provided all the data for the design of notch filters in the FCC
> 
> 8. Confirmed adequacy of FCS margins.
> 
> The tests were also most essential from airworthiness point of view. The Expert Review Committee which reviewed the procedures and results specially complimented the team for their excellence of work in a difficult and challenging technical area. The efforts of the team has resulted not only in establishing facility for such large scale tests bug has generated expertise to asses vibration characteristics and structure control interactions for any complex flight vehicle with confidence. The techniques and facilities developed such as the Aircraft Suspension System, Random Excitation Technique, the Ground Checkout System and SCT techniques are innovative and unique and are perhaps the best in the world.
> 
> http://www.nal.res.in/oldhome/pages/arupadhyacontriai.htm



...............


----------



## Neo

Reminds me of the experimental F-16 AFTI.


----------



## joey

Neo iirc LCA's FBW was tested in Vista which was supposed derivative of some sort of F16XL? have to do some homework in this i think.

LCA's cockpit is very interesting as well, just for example LCa's cockpit and Raptors cockpit looks similar 

2 SSDU's and 3 MFD's with HOTAS (not hotass  ) , VTAS and HMDS and HUD.

i would love to see LCA VTAS working seamlessly with HOTAS which will greastly reduce pilot work.

but then again I'm one of those who still feels analog+digital is better in cockpit just incase you know the mfd gets blackened out the metres would never betray you.

the SSDU's are places for that specific purpose i guess for backup display?


----------



## Neo

joey said:


> Neo iirc LCA's FBW was tested in Vista which was supposed derivative of some sort of F16XL? have to do some homework in this i think.



Yes indeed, the Vista is supposedly a derivative of the F-16XL - AFTI, thats why I posted the second picture.

The AFTI (Advanced Fighter Technology Integration) /F-16XL program was a joint NASA/USAF effort evaluating advanced digital flight controls, automated maneuvering, *voice-activated controls*, sensors, and close-air support attack systems on a modified F-16. Research and test results could be applied to existing or future aircraft.


----------



## Neo

Finally I know something you don't know...yay!


----------



## Neo

F-16XL - AFTI


----------



## joey

Thanks neo for the information Neo, the linkage with voice-controls and VTAS is interesting indeed.

Here is another very interesting algorithm, I wonder if it will be integrated in LCA,

iirc LCA will have carefree handling along its 3 axis and 6 degrees of freedom, I wonder if this algorithm will help it to achieve better results 

One can do two simple things to prevent deep stall,

1> Prevent your ac from being stalled using sensors/carefree handling along all its three axis and 6 degrees of freedom.
2> Recover it from stall.



> Recovering Aircraft Safety after Loss of Pilot Control: An Innovative Algorithm
> N Ananthkrishnan, Department of Aerospace Engineering
> 
> 
> Over the recent years we have witnessed frequent media reports on crashes of military aircrafts in our country. Such incidents do keep recurring globally in peacetime. Crashes could be due to various causes: bird hits, mechanical defects, bad weather, etc. However, recent statistics have shown that a large number of crashes are due to a specific problem faced by pilots called spatial disorientation (SD).
> 
> When flying difficult sorties and under poor weather conditions, pilots can be confused (disoriented) about which way they are heading (up or down), and whether the ground is below their feet or above their head! For example, military pilots are known to suffer from visual illusions during night flying such as mistaking discrete ground lights for the stars and consequently flying inverted (upside down).
> 
> A recent study has shown that almost 90-100% of aircrew have reported at least one incidence of SD during their flying career. Pilots either fail to recognize an SD condition and hence take no corrective action or, even when they recognize the problem, are too disoriented to be able to recover the aircraft to safe flight. In most cases, the aircraft ends up in what is called a spin or a spiral dive with the pilot having no control of the aircraft &#8211; the airplane nose drops, it starts going around in circles while losing height rapidly.
> 
> Spatial disorientation is a problem that can confront any pilot, no matter how highly experienced and well trained. During the years 1980-89, the US Navy reported 112 major accidents, and the US Air Force reported 270 major accidents, involving SD and loss of pilot control. Pilots of general aviation (light) aircraft are equally vulnerable to SD - one of the more high profile crashes was that of the Piper Saratoga being flown by John F Kennedy, Jr. on July 16, 1999. Unfortunately, many accidents caused by spatial disorientation are wrongly labeled as due to pilot error.
> 
> To avoid loss of costly airplanes and to save precious human lives, a two-pronged strategy has been suggested in the literature:
> 
> Pilots should be trained in flight simulators to recognize SD situations and hit a Panic Button provided in the **** pit
> The aircraft's automatic flight control system should have a Panic Button Algorithm that takes control of the air plane from the pilot and recovers the airplane to a nor- mal flying condition.
> However, developing an effective Panic Button Algorithm has been a challenge because of the tight constraints involved: pilots will usually hit the button only when they are in a hopeless situation with the plane already hurtling to the ground, and the algorithm must respond in a very short time before an imminent crash.
> 
> The New Algorithm
> In a major breakthrough, researchers at the Department of Aerospace Engineering, IIT Bombay, working over the last 3 years (2002-04), have come up with a novel Panic Button Algorithm that seems to meet the challenges pointed out above. The research team consisted of students (P K Raghavendra and Tuhin Sahai, P Ashwani Kumar), a research assistant (Manan Chauhan), and the author. The work was partly funded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore.
> 
> Using a combination of two sophisticated new methods called Nonlinear Dynamic Inversion (NDI) and Extended Bifurcation Analysis (EBA), the team from IIT Bombay has devised a unique Panic Button Algorithm that successfully recovers an airplane from even the most adverse flight conditions. The crux of the present work lies in recognizing that a successful algorithm must use a two-step approach where it is necessary for the airplane to pass through an intermediate (waypoint) state before it can be properly recovered to a safe flight condition.
> 
> The research team has carried out extensive computer simulations using high-fidelity aerodata obtained from NASA for a specially modified F-18 airplane called the High Angle-of-Attack Research Vehicle HARV (see illustration) to establish the effectiveness of their algorithm. In the future, the Panic Button Algorithm could be built into sophisticated Flight Control Systems being developed for advanced combat aircraft such as 'Tejas' the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Interestingly, their work also shows that aircraft equipped with thrust vectoring (TV) engines, such as the Sukhoi SU-30, have a 60 per cent better chance at successful recovery as compared to aircraft without TV capability. Translated in terms of height from the ground, airplanes with TV can be recovered after loss of control at much lower altitudes, which is important since nearly 100 per cent of loss of control cases at low altitudes presently end up as crashes.
> 
> Presented at the Aerospace Sciences Meeting organized by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) at Reno, NV, USA (Jan 2004), the work has been appreciated internationally for its thoroughness and novelty. It is expected to be of high value to the international aircraft design community.
> http://www.ircc.iitb.ac.in/~webadm/update/Issue1_2005/algorithm.html





> Aeronautics
> In aerospace labs from Bangalore to the US, an Indian idea to save combat aircraft is making experts sit up and take notice.
> 
> Prof. N. Ananthkrishnan doesn&#8217;t panic every time his office building at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Bombay, shakes violently and the steel almirahs rattle. It&#8217;s only a colleague at the lab next door flying toy-size aero-planes and spares&#8212;like a Concorde wing replica&#8212;in a wind tunnel where air blazes in at thrice the speed of sound. But the bespectacled Ananthkrishnan, 1989 batch, IIT Bombay, prefers F-18s, avoids cellphones and is not scared of plane crashes&#8212;at least not on his computer, where he&#8217;s at the controls. After digging into math and software codes from 2002, Ananthkrishnan, his three students, all about 22, and a research assistant have proven&#8212;in computer simulation on F-18 data sent from NASA&#8212;a Panic Button Algorithm to recover combat aircraft that may be spinning to a crash.
> 
> This is a piece of work that aviation&#8217;s top guns, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), and Bangalore&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) have followed keenly and are now taking very seriously. The IIT algorithm has the intelligence to recover military aircraft from a loss-of-control spiral or spin to safe mode&#8212;theoretically, even if the pilot hits the panic button about 20 seconds before an imminent crash.
> 
> &#8220;Five years ago when a top Indian Air Force officer suggested this topic to me, nobody in India was working on this,&#8221; says Ananthkrishnan, associate pro-fessor, aerospace engineering. &#8220;We expect that our algorithm can be built into automatic flight control systems being developed for present-generation combat aircraft like the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.&#8221;
> 
> This November, the research, partly ADA-funded, was published as a paper in the AIAA&#8217;s Journal of Aircraft. The reviews spoke of going beyond the lab: &#8220;Both the methodology and the findings... are relevant and of value to the aircraft design community,&#8221; said an expert review. At the ADA, they have kept a keen eye on the idea. &#8220;As higher computational speeds will be available in future, we could use the IIT algorithm in the next LCA version, directly,&#8221; says P.S. Subramanyan, ADA director and also programme director (combat aircraft). &#8220;For now, their research has given us clues for our experimental LCA stage, to recover it from spin at high angle of attack.&#8221;
> 
> Agrees K.V.L. Rao, ADA&#8217;s technical advisor: &#8220;This new technology will be very beneficial to fourth-generation aircraft like the LCA (Tejas) currently under flight testing at ADA.&#8221; Such aircraft, Rao explains, are designed to be unstable for better agility and combat effectiveness. &#8220;At high angles of attack beyond stall, the aircraft can lose control and get into a spin,&#8221; says Rao, adding: &#8220;LCA has a flight control system to prevent such departure leading to spin. However, aircraft has to be tested for recovery from spin during flight test phase. The panic button concept would enable aircraft to recover to safe flying mode.&#8221;
> 
> A falling aircraft can plunge 300 feet per second. &#8220;There are barely 20 sec-onds to act before a crash,&#8221; says Ananthkrishnan. So the team first computed all possible conditions for loss of control and also to recover the aircraft. They used two codes or tools: one called the Extended Bifurcation Analysis made in-house by a PhD student four years ago, and a non-linear dynamic inversion software. The algorithm aims at the spatial disorientation (SD) pilots suffer during military sorties: for example, visual illusions during night flying or adverse weath-er conditions when pilots can get too disoriented to recover the aircraft in time.
> 
> SD was blamed for John F. Kennedy Jr&#8217;s Piper Saratoga crash in 1999. &#8220;Now that we&#8217;ve tested the algorithm to work in the lab on realistic aircraft data, the next step would be to test it on real flight control systems,&#8221; says Ananthkrishnan. &#8220;That could be years away.&#8221; P.S. Meanwhile, Ananthkrishnan&#8217;s young engineers who also worked on the flight plan have flown away to Cornell, Princeton, Michigan and Chicago.
> 
> 
> &#8212;Reshma Patil
> http://www.aero.iitb.ac.in/~akn/panic.php.html


----------



## joey

Neo said:


> Finally I know something you don't know...yay!



lol ,

"I'm just picking up the pebbles in the beach, there is whole sea left  ".

anyways I knew about F16XL not the AFTI programme, didnt took much interested in the FBW which we had to re-design anyway and it proved to be better as per chief scientist who designed it.


----------



## con

LCA to fly in Paris Air show.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8775

Check out the entry which says:
HAL LCA Tejas


I say Coool


----------



## Bull

Rafael has been selected to supply its Litening targeting pod to equip the Indian air force's Aeronautical Development Agency-built Tejas light combat aircraft. 

The order - of undisclosed value - covers the production of Litening systems for the service's initial batch of 20 production aircraft.

Defense Update:
LITENING incorporates in a single pod all the targeting features required by a modern strike fighter. The LITENING program, launched by Israel's Research and Development authority RAFAEL in 1992, combines multiple sensors for maximum flexibility in a single pod at low cost.

The original pod included a 1st Generation FLIR, a TV camera, a flash-lamp powered laser designator, laser spot tracker for tracking target designated by other aircraft or from the ground, and an electro-optical point and inertial tracker, which enabled continuous engagement of the target even when the target is partly obscured by clouds or countermeasures.

The HAL Tejas is an advanced, lightweight, supersonic multirole fighter aircraft being developed by India. It is a tailless,[1] compound delta wing design powered by a single engine. Until the aircraft was formally named (by then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee) as Tejas on 4 May 2003, the project was known as the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which continues in popular usage.

Limited series production of the Tejas has commenced in 2007; it is currently projected to achieve limited initial operational clearance (IOC) with the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2008, followed by full operational clearance (FOC) by the end of 2010.[4] A naval variant capable of operating from the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers is also in development.

As of 26 May 2007, the LCA had completed 672 successful test flights in all (TD1:207, TD2:258,PV1:135,PV2:28,PV3:38,LSP1:6).


----------



## Bull

joey, Neo throw some light on this.


----------



## joey

On what bul, oh that Litening pod on LCA? it means only one thing, LCA is going to be used as potential a2g from start 

Mig 27/MKI/Mirages and i think jaguar as well is equipped with these pods, If i remember carefully LCA has one hardpoint extra just for using pods.


----------



## Samudra

con said:


> LCA to fly in Paris Air show.
> 
> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8775
> 
> Check out the entry which says:
> HAL LCA Tejas
> 
> 
> I say Coool




If things go according to the plan I will be in Paris to see the Tejas fly. 

EDIT : Nopes. Not possible this time.


----------



## Neo

con said:


> LCA to fly in Paris Air show.
> 
> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8775
> 
> Check out the entry which says:
> HAL LCA Tejas
> 
> 
> I say Coool



Tejas and Dhurv both will fly at Le Bourget.
I'll try to take a few nice pics for you guys.


----------



## Neo

Samudra said:


> If things go according to the plan I will be in Paris to see the Tejas fly.
> 
> EDIT : Nopes. Not possible this time.



Why not...?
Munir, I and a few other friends will be there aswell.


----------



## joey

Neo get your best SLR or whatever camera (we poor chaps here in india cannot even afford a decent SLr  ) and do get some good pics, I wonder if the PV-3 will fly or the LSP-1.

Is that only airshow or airshow cum aerospace exhibition like that happened in AERO India?


----------



## EagleEyes

F/A-22 and JF-17 will be missing. Darn it.


----------



## Samudra

Neo said:


> Why not...?
> Munir, I and a few other friends will be there aswell.



Wish I could...lets see how things go. 
I'll make the decision a week before - around 15/16th of this month.


----------



## Neo

The event will take place between June 18-24, we'll be there on 22 and 23rd.


----------



## Neo

If you don't make it to Paris Le Bourget there's another big one in Farnborough in UK, the next on my list depending if Munir is going.


----------



## Neo

Bull said:


> joey, Neo throw some light on this.



Bull,

Targetting Pods are a must in a modern Multirole Combat Aircraft for several reasons:

*Reduced pilot workload during targeting and tracking 
*High accuracy and reliability 
*Reduced operational limitations 
*Simple maintenance and support 
*Low life cycle cost 
*Upgrades existing aircraft with multi-mission capabilities 
*Adaptable to most aircraft 
*Detection, recognition, identification and laser designation of air-to-surface and maritime targets 
*Accurate delivery of laser guided munitions, cluster and general purpose weapons 
*Laser spot detection and tracking 
*Identification of aerial targets from the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) 
*Long range data and video down-link option

One can assume like Joey said the Tejas is likely to have a strike or A2G role. Litening III is in the league of Sniper SX selected by PAF for the F-16CD, it will boost your defensive and offensive capabilities.

*Litening Targeting Pod II*


----------



## Neo

Joey,

Please try to find out if Litening III is being offered to Tejas or is it the II/ER/AT version.
Thanks!


----------



## Bull

Thanks Joey and Neo.

And yeah by the way if anybody goes for the paris airshow, dont come back without snaps. You will be denied entry into PFF..banned for life....


----------



## zeus

LSP-1,PV-1,PV-3 are still flying in india ,if the news is true then it may be TD-1 or TD-2 ,i doubt prototypes will be flying there, un-less in last minute Prototypes are packed in Russian AN-124 and send to paris


----------



## zeus

WebMaster said:


> F/A-22 and JF-17 will be missing. Darn it.



visitors will also be missing Sukhoi 30  

 No surprises at the Le Bourget air show


----------



## Adux

LCA aint flying in the Paris Airshow, it is showing cancelled in their website


----------



## joey

Some LCA component pictures, Mods if this is unsuitable I can move it in mil pics thread?

Digital Flight Control Computer of LCA

http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010657digitalflightcoel3.jpg

Pilon Interface Unit of LCA

http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010655pyloninterfacebit8.jpg

Counter Measure Dispension System for LCA, CMDS includes LWS and MAWS

http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4408dr7.jpg

LCA Tarang MKII RWR system

http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010664rwryl9.jpg

MEMS based pressure Sensor for LCA, 

http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4487ru8.jpg

Onboard Satellite Reciever,

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4488pj1.jpg

Ring Laser Gyro, INS system for LCA, only 5-6 countries make this thing.

http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4436lj4.jpg

Jam Resistant Datalinks,

http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4413ar6.jpg



.. More later...


----------



## joey

One might ask what is MEMS? MEMS based sensors are cutting edge things, LCA's acceleretometre system to other will use many such sensors..



> Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems (MEMS) is the integration of mechanical elements, sensors, actuators, and electronics on a common silicon substrate through microfabrication technology. While the electronics are fabricated using integrated circuit (IC) process sequences (e.g., CMOS, Bipolar, or BICMOS processes), the micromechanical components are fabricated using compatible "micromachining" processes that selectively etch away parts of the silicon wafer or add new structural layers to form the mechanical and electromechanical devices.
> 
> MEMS promises to revolutionize nearly every product category by bringing together silicon-based microelectronics with micromachining technology, making possible the realization of complete systems-on-a-chip. MEMS is an enabling technology allowing the development of smart products, augmenting the computational ability of microelectronics with the perception and control capabilities of microsensors and microactuators and expanding the space of possible designs and applications.
> 
> Microelectronic integrated circuits can be thought of as the "brains" of a system and MEMS augments this decision-making capability with "eyes" and "arms", to allow microsystems to sense and control the environment. Sensors gather information from the environment through measuring mechanical, thermal, biological, chemical, optical, and magnetic phenomena. The electronics then process the information derived from the sensors and through some decision making capability direct the actuators to respond by moving, positioning, regulating, pumping, and filtering, thereby controlling the environment for some desired outcome or purpose. Because MEMS devices are manufactured using batch fabrication techniques similar to those used for integrated circuits, unprecedented levels of functionality, reliability, and sophistication can be placed on a small silicon chip at a relatively low cost.
> 
> http://www.memsnet.org/mems/what-is.html


----------



## Contrarian

* Fighter aircraft Tejas undergoing development flight trials*


Bangalore, June 19: After completion of the first phase of engineering development, Tejas, the fighter aircraft being developed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), is undergoing flight trials toward initial operational clearance.

Ambient environmental conditions have strong influence on the aircraft and systems performance. Hence, the aircraft will need to be subjected to a wide range of altitude and temperature conditions as part of the development flight testing, according to an ADA statement.

"Sea level trials are one such important test, for which currently a detachment is operating at INS Rajali, Arakkonam, since last week," it said. Arakkonam, located at about 215 km east of Bangalore, has a long runway at an elevation of about 80 meters above mean sea level.

The current phase of flight trials at Arakkonam plans to exploit the prevailing hot and humid conditions close to sea level and to assess the aircraft and systems performance under such conditions. Simultaneously, Tejas will also achieve flight envelope expansion to lower altitudes. The Indian Navy is a stakeholder in the programme. They have invested a third of development expenditure for their naval variant.

A mobile telemetry system has been set up to monitor and control flight-tests as INS Rajali, where a composite team of design, production, maintenance, certification and flight test personnel are working in a campaign mode.

The flight trials are proceeding satisfactorily and the aircraft is progressively completing the necessary test and evolution requirements to declare it for induction into the services, it was stated.

Bureau Report 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8821


----------



## Bull

Raethon has offered its AESA radars which if accepted can be modified to fit in LCA as well as other jets with IAF.


----------



## Adux

The Israeli DASH HMDS for the LCA


----------



## BATMAN

Is there any count how many countries are involved in the development of LCA and how much can be counted as (indeginous)Indian contribution?


----------



## joey

Well I can tell you it is 50&#37; more indigenous than Gripen is, *are you going to do the same rah rah or get back in the technical table* and want to know where exactly is the foreign help being sought for and why?


----------



## joey

Not going to upset you but I wonder if JSF is american? WTF! WAAAH WAAAH ITS NOT AMERICAN MHUHUA the APG 81 radar is not indigenous mhuhha and why is that? look here,

*Northrop Grumman Receives First Delivery of Receiver Exciter Modules for F-35 Lightning II* 
http://www.epicos.com/epicos/portal...EF0A34.tomcat1?articleid=79038&showfull=false


> Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) has taken delivery of the first two sets of receiver exciter
> modules for the F-35 Lightning II aircraft program.
> 
> *The common bus interface and slave synchronizer modules were produced by Terma A/S of Lystrup, Denmark*, for the AN/APG-81 F-35radar. They are the first increment of hardware to be delivered during the System Development and Demonstration phase of the program. Terma A/S will deliver the radar system's core interface, analog IF receiver and drain power supply components later this year.



Stop spamming.


----------



## BATMAN

Exactly, for the same reasons it is more fair if LCA should be renamed as JCA.
I just read some where, its not 50% rather 70% of LCA (JCA) comprised of foreign parts and the remaining 30% produced in India had technical co-operation of many countries.


> According to some estimates as much as 70 percent of the LCA components are imported.


http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1998/issue2/jv2n2a6.html


----------



## Adux

Its 50&#37;,Nobody claimed LCA is compeletly indegenous that all the nuts and bolts are made in India. Everything about the LCA is available from the LCA design team on the Web.
And yes you are acting like a Troll.


----------



## con

BATMAN said:


> Exactly, for the same reasons it is more fair if LCA should be renamed as JCA.
> I just read some where, its not 50% rather 70% of LCA (JCA) comprised of foreign parts and the remaining 30% produced in India had technical co-operation of many countries.
> 
> http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1998/issue2/jv2n2a6.html



Can you tell me what are those 70% percentage which is not Indian?


----------



## BATMAN

con said:


> Can you tell me what are those 70% percentage which is not Indian?


That's how its written in the article.
Please, go to the above given link and read the article, its written by
_''Dr. P.R.Kumaraswamy is a research fellow at the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. The author is grateful to the BESA Center for Strategic Studies for its support for this study. ''_
http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1998/issue2/jv2n2a6.html
I also remember your claims in history that development was delayed due to US santions in 1999.
I also know that engine is American, Radar, HMS, AVIONICS and airframe is from Israel, targeting pods are from France.
I don't know where the tyres are made but Russians had some contribution as well.


----------



## Adux

airframe is from israel....lol?


----------



## con

BATMAN said:


> That's how its written in the article.
> Please, go to the above given link and read the article, its written by
> _''Dr. P.R.Kumaraswamy is a research fellow at the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. The author is grateful to the BESA Center for Strategic Studies for its support for this study. ''_
> http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1998/issue2/jv2n2a6.html
> I also remember your claims in history that development was delayed due to US santions in 1999.
> I also know that engine is American, Radar, HMS, AVIONICS and airframe is from Israel, targeting pods are from France.
> I don't know where the tyres are made but Russians had some contribution as well.



FBW development was delayed due to sanctions as it was a joint development with LM.It was been tested on their F-16 test bed,which was confiscated when the sanctions hit. 
Since it was sanctioned and India manages to fly the LCA without a single crash so far.. proved that India sucessfully developed it in house. 

Next engine is American. But that is not 70&#37; of the aircraft.For your kind information Rafael flew with the same engine that powers LCA. So Rafael is not French then?

Care to tell what avonics are israel?

Airframe from Israel? Lets say .. we are not as good as the Chinese is copying airframes(Lavi?). 
And targeting pod is NOT from France.
Israel radars are NOT meant for entire production schedules. It is only meant for weaponisation drive. The production variants would be fitted with MMR later this year or start of next year.

Now lets see...
Airframe-Indian
Engine -US
FBW-Indian
Processing unit+Cockpit avoinics-Indian
HUD- Indian
Radar- Production aircraft -Indian
Weapon-Astra- Indian
And yes... Tyres- Indian

So 70%? Do you have a different way of using Maths?


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## Adux

Ok little kids Here is the Limited Series Production, LCA. That is first of the twenty.


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## joey

please stop feeding this troll, Batman if you have CONSTRUCTIVE QUESTION SHOOT else we will ignore you.

I asked you WHICH SPECIFIC PART INFORMATION YOU WANT, be brief and specific will you kindly?


----------



## BATMAN

What do you think what is wrong with the maths of Dr. P.R. Kumarasawamy ?
You are not being fair here with Israeli and Russian contributions, any how... I don't think what ever I post, you will not agree.


----------



## joey

Neo........


Batman I'll ask you once again, You tell me what parts you know of LCA are foreign and do the calculation yourself. will you?

I'll repeast this last time, this is getting on my nerves, Ask which part of LCA is foreign made, I'll give you its history.


----------



## con

BATMAN said:


> What do you think what is wrong with the maths of Dr. P.R. Kumarasawamy ?
> You are not being fair here with Israeli and Russian contributions, any how... I don't think what ever I post, you will not agree.



Batman,
This Dr. P. R is SPECULATING. He says "sources suggest".. etc... etc...
Which means he himself is not sure. 

The question of fair or unfair doesnot arise. There are hundreds of "speculating authors" around. You expect any one around here to consider that a definitive source?

LCA development is a open book. Just a little search and you will find loads of info on it's development.Dare I say more than that of JF-17.
India has been open with any foreign system that was implemented in LCA.


----------



## Contrarian

BATMAN said:


> What do you think what is wrong with the maths of Dr. P.R. Kumarasawamy ?
> You are not being fair here with Israeli and Russian contributions, any how... I don't think what ever I post, you will not agree.



Fact is, you actually have nothing TO say. You are just ranting aout LCA.

And Con, the 'source suggest' means that even the sources are not sure.
Batman is plain trolling.


----------



## Adux

*Ladies Check out the FIRST of LSP Flying *


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## joey

http://journal.frontierindia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=38

_Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas Testing 
Written by Air Marshal P. Rajkumar, PVSM, AVSM, VM (Retd.) 
Thursday, 28 September 2006 _ 


2 Pages of article. The frontierIndia article is a very nice article short , to the point and precise, though details on various sensors was ommited for obvious reasons, and it has not been updated with latest PV3 additions as well as it havent been updated after PV3 flew, but overall excellent piece of writing.


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## BATMAN

Adux said:


> *Ladies Check out the FIRST of LSP Flying *



Really, are you the one who is flying it ???


----------



## intruder

Like your humour !!


----------



## Adux

We have to activate the clean up crew on Trolls


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## Edevelop

The fact is that you indians don't tell in public that which part of the LCA is foreign made but i'm pretty sure that you people don't have that much technology to create an aircraft. For example if china cant make an engine of an aircraft that means India cant make either because china is way ahead of india and the way u can create an aircrfat would obviously include the help of the russians.


----------



## bhangra12345

cb4 said:


> The fact is that you indians don't tell in public that which part of the LCA is foreign made but i'm pretty sure that you people don't have that much technology to create an aircraft. For example if china cant make an engine of an aircraft that means India cant make either because china is way ahead of india and the way u can create an aircrfat would obviously include the help of the russians.



cb4,

If you are really interested, all the info regarding which parts of LCA are foreign is in the same thread. Regarding the engine, read up on kaveri engine. It is not ready yet, it achieved around 80-85% of its targets, hopefully will be successful by 2010-11.


----------



## Bull

cb4 said:


> The fact is that you indians don't tell in public that which part of the LCA is foreign made but i'm pretty sure that you people don't have that much technology to create an aircraft. For example if china cant make an engine of an aircraft that means India cant make either because china is way ahead of india and the way u can create an aircrfat would obviously include the help of the russians.



We cant tell in Public because China cant tell in public..!!!


----------



## gnat

cb4 said:


> The fact is that you indians don't tell in public that which part of the LCA is foreign made but i'm pretty sure that you people don't have that much technology to create an aircraft. For example if china cant make an engine of an aircraft that means India cant make either because china is way ahead of india and the way u can create an aircrfat would obviously include the help of the russians.





Why are look so much yellow?


----------



## Keysersoze

gnat said:


> Why are look so much yellow?



Are you making some sort of racial remark Gnat? If so you will receive short shrift here....I suggest you edit it accordingly.


----------



## ashutosh

fun in the air. a sleak supersonic plane with delta formation and steath partly with advance aesa radar and with bvr astra and spersonic bhramosh. it would be fun to se how other plane in asia are going to compare thm. gripen is out coz LCA is as good as GRIPEN.


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## BATMAN

Welcome to the club.
Have you any news when LCA will be inducted in IA.


----------



## joey

Good Information Regarding Kaveri Engine, though all that we know off

And something from me,


----------



## Keysersoze

ashutosh said:


> fun in the air. a sleak supersonic plane with delta formation and steath partly with advance aesa radar and with bvr astra and spersonic bhramosh. it would be fun to se how other plane in asia are going to compare thm. gripen is out coz LCA is as good as GRIPEN.



Ashutosh I suggest you learn from some of the senior posters rather than silly boastful posts of no merit. If you insist upon posting in this manner I think you will find you will get short shrift from from everyone (including your fellow Indians)


----------



## Chukkar

Had an interesting chat with someone involved in the LCA project on the user side.
Cut a long story short, the IAF believes in it and will buy it- now that the ADA/HAL chaps have got their act together and are fast tracking it. Engine remains somewhat of a tricky issue- the Indians are ok with the Ge404 in terms of performance but there are sections in the IAF(!!) which want the Kaveri to succeed- I would have thought they'd prefer a tried and tested engine. But basically asked about production numbers- bloke said somewhere around 200 planes will be purchased. Since the LCA is Indian, the Indian Ministry of Defence will hand over the funds double fast, and their wont be all that issue as was with the MRCA.
Interesting stuff.


----------



## Titanium

Chukkar said:


> the Indians are ok with the Ge404 in terms of performance but there are sections in the IAF(!!) which want the Kaveri to succeed-



Glad to know this piece, am I alone surprised here!!! What do you mean by "sections" in IAF? Care to elaborate.


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## joey

http://www.barc.ernet.in/publications/nl/2007/200707-1.pdf

*Report on MMR from BARC Newsletter for July 2007*


----------



## Titanium

Bangalore: Sea-level flights of Tejas, the *indigenous *light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that Indias fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.  
Prototype vehicles PV2 and PV3 were put through 24 flights over two weeks at INS Rajali at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu recently. Being at sea level Arakkonam offered a dramatically different environment from that of Bangalore, which is 3,018 feet above sea level. It was in Bangalore that all the LCA flying was until then done. With the longest runway of its kind in India, INS Rajali enabled Tejas to undertake extensive low-level flying, something that is not possible in Bangalore.

The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were largely successful. _But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes._ 

Informed sources attribute this to insufficient installed thrust from the power plant after its integration with the air frame. Engineers working with the programme say modifications including to the aircrafts air intakes will have to be made or a new engine installed. Both solutions will be time-consuming.  

Informed sources say a solution would necessarily have to be found since the aircraft is not likely to clear (low-level) final operation clearance (FOC) with the present installed thrust. It is unlikely that the end-user, the Indian Air Force, which in 2006 placed an order for 20 of the aircraft, be happy to induct an under-powered machine.  

Read more...


----------



## joey

Yes Read on, Cross posting, 



> Here is one more issue [or is it more than one] which they forgot in design stage maybe :
> 
> "Sea-level flights of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that India&#8217;s fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.
> 
> The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas&#8217; systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were &#8220;largely successful.&#8221; But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes"



As I have told you I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of knowing, The report is by Ravi sharma who reported how tejas only did some 30 test flights to test its envelope and all others were infront of ministers and foreign delegations. The same journo was also the one who wrote off the MMR as a failure (along with Arror whom I personally know) only to have details released later that the A2G mode was to be finalized. He also claimed that there were such huge losses in power transfer that range was reduced- on the LCA. Turned out that it was the HACK the MMR testbed, and the LCA in contrast has a fully allotted rack for the electronics to be colocated with the RF transmitters.This same twit also wrote that the LCA sufferred from poor estate management- upon asking, it turned out that it was an issue with the first TDs because of all the Flight test instrumentation stuffed into the bird. Fool also wrote that "anything less than an AESA is obsolete"- this when the MKI has a PESA, the Mirage and MiG-29 upgrades are getting MSA! 

'*Informed Sources*' in Indian defence as per article also speaks, how good Shtil 1 system is over Barak they also speaks how bad Arjun is over T90 and also speaks how good Gorshkov is for India.

I'll quote,

P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director LCA from the same article which seperates the chaff from wheat,



> &#8220;The programme is on the fast track. We are planning to fit drop tanks and mid port bombs very shortly. Missile firing is also being planned. The present engines (F 404) will see me through IOC and FOC.&#8221;



Alas he cant even quote him properly, there is nothing called as mid port bombs.

Also reports,



> A new, more powerful engine such as the GE 414 (which powers the F-16 Super Hornet), whose core is the same as the GE 404 but is heavier or a similar engine, may have to be tried.



F16 *Falcon* becomes a F-18 *Super-Hornet* when it get Super Hornet's F414 engine. Or put space shuttle engine and LCA will become a spacecraft.


----------



## Titanium

Cross posted..


> knowing, The report is by Ravi sharma who reported how tejas only did some 30 test flights to test its envelope and all others were infront of ministers and foreign delegations. The same journo was also the one who wrote off the MMR as a failure (along with Arror whom I personally know) only to have details released later that the A2G mode was to be finalized. He also claimed that there were such huge losses in power transfer that range was reduced- on the LCA. Turned out that it was the HACK the MMR testbed, and the LCA in contrast has a fully allotted rack for the electronics to be colocated with the RF transmitters.This same twit also wrote that the LCA sufferred from poor estate management- upon asking, it turned out that it was an issue with the first TDs because of all the Flight test instrumentation stuffed into the bird. Fool also wrote that "anything less than an AESA is obsolete"- this when the MKI has a PESA, the Mirage and MiG-29 upgrades are getting MSA!


According to some most of the defence correspodents in india are traitors and the list is long shiv aroor, parsun sengupta, rahul bedi, ajai shukla, vijendra thakur ..... now add this gentleman. 



> P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director LCA from the same article chich seperates the chaff from wheat,



Is it not the project directors promising one dead line after another --which is most realible for you.


> the problem is not with engine thrust, but installed thrust. i.e. matching the inlet and diffuser geometry to provide optimal capture area, mass flow, pressure recovery and minimal distortion as required by the engine. It is an airframe-engine integration issue



Back to drawing table? see you then!!


----------



## joey

Titanium said:


> Joey,
> Why are you getting personal? I never bothered whether my opnion matters to you or not. I am simply commenting on the news. I do understand you are emotional about LCA and also understand that you have been following the LCA development for more than 2 decades but does not make every critic or comment which does not suit you taste unworthy. So chill out your opinion matter least to me also.


no one is getting personal, but Its becoming irritating to see your level of intellect, whether it is deliberate or not is for all to see the reason I realised should have stopped replying to you right when chukkar did.

LCA is not emotional for me it was must for India, the LCA project has led to the MKI project the Jaguar upgrade, mig 23/27 upgrades the CAT programme and all these are major programms.



> Am not contesting here ..anyway the subject here is not "battle of aerospace between you and me"


The subject here is nothing but to understand what is being said and reply in that rational sense, the attrition is a problem, the funding IS one of the problem, GRTE happens to be one of the most mismanaged lab and the lab to face most attrition was one of the reason I gave you, your flawed understanding has nothing to do with your drum beating about mis-interpretations of facts.



> According to some most of the defence correspodents in india are traitors and the list is long shiv aroor, parsun sengupta, rahul bedi, ajai shukla, vijendra thakur ..... now add this gentleman.


Its not a matter of being traitor, Its a matter of being on whose vested interested these peoples are reporting it is as simple as it if you dont know or are not in the business you aint informed about these things, you should have seen war for media the blog which was deleted after the journalist was threatened with his life.

Ajay Shukla is a downright moron, and I have interacted with him. His points are void of PURE facts.

Shiv arror - does not knows what he was talking about, dont ask me from where I got this I'm reluctant to give the source and the proof, if you still insist I might. and now he has got a pic of the upcoming cruise missile which no-one did.

prasun sengupta - of Force villifies the claims that we have a JV with brazil for LRSAM, Irbis is AESA, MKI is invincible and what not seriously from how many times are you following force? Prasun is facing a lawsuit from somewhere else for his plagiriasation.

Rest not go into the others.



> Is it not the project directors promising one dead line after another --which is most realible for you.


The project director of LCA is here from quite long time, and the date of LCA WAS FIXED FROM ITS FIRST FLIGHT IN 2001 that it will be 2010 for IOC and subsequent FOC, Read what Air Marshal Wollen writes on it. Again you distort what I tried to say, the reporter is even misquoting what the project director is saying, mid-port bombs?



> Back to drawing table? see you then!!



hehe unfortunately that is not the case, the both engines are absolutely similar and they are performing flawlessly the integration of IN20 is being done as we speak dont know with which engine this bird went up air because of its similarities with the older engine which has passed all tests, the older engine did performed flawlessly as well and it has less thrust than the new one. The sea level tests is much more than testing in the low level altitude.


----------



## Bull

Thanks joey for those inputs.


----------



## Titanium

Agencies developing *Indias indigenous * Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) are looking for *overseas partners to conduct the flight tests*.
The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, which is responsible for design, monitoring and development of the LCA, has already received bids from *overseas defense companies for design and development * work in the flight-testing stage.
A senior official of ADA, an autonomous agency under the Defence Ministrys Research and Development Organisation, confirmed that bids have been received from Boeing, Dassault, EADS, Lockheed Martin, the MiG Corp. and Saab following a June global tender.
The work will include flight envelope expansion; high-angle-of-attack flight testing; aero-data validation and upgrades; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation, modeling and testing; wake modeling and wake-penetration flight tests; and refinements to simulation.
The LCA is now preparing to enter the weapon integration stage. About 600 flight tests have been carried out, the ADA official said. 
The aim is to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) with the multimode radar integrated with a weapon suite, which will give the aircraft limited operational capability by 2010. The aircraft could be inducted into the Air Force at that stage, the ADA official said, but another three years and about 1,500 hours of flight testing would be needed to move from IOC to final operational clearance. 
_Eight limited-series production aircraft, two technical demonstrators and five prototypes are part of the LCAs design and development program_. The Indian Air Force has placed an order for 20 aircraft and is expected to order at least another 200 *once the LCA is successfully *inducted.


----------



## joey

Just for some information to peoples concerned, nor Defence News nor Vivek Raghuvansi can be taken for granted as a trusted source no matter how good/bad their stories are (according to whom navy will fit commando subs in kilos great!), I have already shown in the arjun thread how tremendous mis-manipulation of parliamentary record to twist the story the way he wants it to be was done on numerous ocassions by vivek.

Now regarding the above part of the article written by him from DN,



> The work will include flight envelope expansion; high-angle-of-attack flight testing; aero-data validation and upgrades; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation, modeling and testing; wake modeling and wake-penetration flight tests; and refinements to simulation.



Flight Envelope Expansion : All these days they have been exactly doing these however they are going very slow in exploring the last end envelope due to if any crash if happens will bring out various knives from various peoples in their own vested interests.

high-angle-of-attack flight testing : Need is around 25~27 AoA in generality, PV2 already achieved around 23 AoA the Pv3 has already clocked more than that.

aero-data validation and upgrades : Quite possible, they might look into contemporary databases to validate their end envelope codes only as much accurate as possible before testing in the air to avoid unfortunate circumstances. LCA encompasses carefree handeling in all its 6 degrees of freedom, thus to push the envelope in its extremes a slight error in coding can prove fatal and the ac may stall to prevent such issue and speed up things ground validation is a better way around.

However IIT along with ADA has worked out a novell stall-recovery from spin algorithm with F18 HARV aero-flight test data from nasa which to be activated by a panic button, dont know the present status of its incorporation in LCA.


external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation : Studies regarding the same has been done , there were a few good presentations regarding the same, and Weapons launch kinematics work is progressing smoothly and there is no hurdles here. Simulation always helps here.

modeling and testing : HAL/ADA has already outsourced modelling and testing of various components like the rear cockpit etc to various pvt organisations in cad/cam. There is no issues relating to this.

wake modeling and wake-penetration : we might need outside help to cross this milestone as we dont have a dedicated aircraft with dedicated/known wake characteristics/smoke generator with dedicated sets of ground based data ready to speed up the testing, like the vfw-614 was used as wake producer for ef2k testing, lets see what HAL plans for this.

refinements to simulation : Most of simulations in cad/cam has been outsourced to private entities, and there is no issue or lack of expertise in simulation in India there are gazziolions of them working.

However I'm sure such 'global tender' wouldnt be missed by PTI, or HAL's annual report will mention it anyway, lets wait till the next years annual report of all comes even if such global tender gets mentioned in HAL's report, mark my words it will not be all of the disciplines that MR vivek has mentioned because some of them does not makes sense plain and simple, even though most of the issues mentioned above are very miniscule part of a aircraft programme.


----------



## joey

> *India's Tejas fighter suffers new setback*
> India's Tejas fighter suffers new setback
> By Radhakrishna Rao
> 
> India's Tejas light combat aircraft programme has suffered a new setback, with sea-level fight tests using two prototype aircraft having demonstrated lower than expected engine performance during take-off and maximum speed demonstrations.
> 
> But in a fresh move intended to steady the troubled programme, New Delhi in mid-August announced a co-operative agreement under which its defence industry will develop the aircraft's multi-mode radar with Israel Aerospace Industries' Elta Systems subsidiary.
> 
> Conducted from Arakkonam in India's southern Tamil Nadu state and intended to demonstrate the Aeronautical Development Agency aircraft's performance under dense atmospheric conditions, the recent series of 24 flights revealed that the Tejas was unable to reach its expected maximum speed of Mach 1.05, despite having reached M1.6 at high altitude.
> 
> The failure has been attributed to insufficient available thrust from the aircraft's General Electric F404 engine, and underlines India's need to replace the US design with the Kaveri powerplant now under development by its Gas Turbine Research Establishment. In common with the wider Tejas programme, the Kaveri project has been dogged by development delays and cost escalations, which have forced New Delhi to order additional F404s to power its initial production batch of lightweight fighters.
> 
> Prototype and demonstrator examples of the Tejas have now flown 725 flights, and the type is due to achieve initial operational capability in late 2010.
> 
> Announcing the new radar pact, defence minister A K Antony said India's parliament has approved the co-development agreement with Elta, with Hindustan Aeronautics selected to lead the project. The initiative will replace previous work conducted by the Bangalore-based Electronics and Radar Development Establishment, with technical hitches having prevented a radar design from being integrated with a prototype Tejas.
> 
> Antony says the new fire-control radar is needed to support demonstration flights of the fully developed and armed fighter from 2010, and Israeli sources reveal that the sensor will be a further development of Elta's EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array.
> 
> The company is completing development of the design using IAI's Boeing 737 flying testbed, and an undisclosed air force recently placed a $95 million contract to acquire the system. Elta says the AESA design can detect up to 64 targets simultaneously, while it can also provide ground mapping services and be used against maritime threats.



Comparitively a much better source, So here are some conclusions from the report,

1. The speed issue seems due to non-flat rated nature of the engine and also more importantly the issue of F2J3's.

*MMR as I know (confirmed) and as per AFM (highly reliable information as allan warnes was in blore),*

1. MMR developement is progressing very nicely and some specific modules for only and only A2G mode is to be imported from Israel which will be later replaced by these specific Indian modules under developement.

2. LSP 02 will incorporate MMR till then interim measure of Elta 2032 will be used for weapons trials and integration.


*MMR as per force (highly unrelible, prasun is a plagiriser and there is a lawsuit against him..),*

MMR is now a AESA with JV with Israel which will use Israels proven 2052 system but the electronics will be replaced by the Indian ones developed for MMR and the system will be further upscaled.


*MMR as per Flight global*

Seems same as the Force.


Force being right is highly unlikely, though it would have been best if it happened, there is no way to confirm any changes in requirements if any from past few months, until and unless MOD report comes out.

One other scenario : Radar pact with Israel signed, co-developement of 2052 with maximum commonality with MMR modules to install in MRCA, while MMR will go in Tejas replacing Elta 2032 as planned seems the only plausible scenario.


----------



## Titanium

joey said:


> Just for some information to peoples concerned, nor Defence News nor Vivek Raghuvansi can be taken for granted as a trusted source no matter how good/bad their stories are.





> MMR as per force (highly unrelible, prasun is a plagiriser and there is a lawsuit against him





> Force being right is highly unlikely



Seems The fanboys would not like the bearer of bad news, are all the defence journalist are misreporting? I don't think so. The problem with fanboys is they want to see miracles, but they should realise that days of Mahabharata is over. No one will chant mantra and lo behold vimana aka LCA will be realised. If the journalist with acess to all the official misreport, do you think they will be in business. Calling them untrust worthy, working against national interest will not make LCA fly, How would you like being called Jingostic Dumba$$? Joey give the guys the credit and accept that LCA is not coming soon.



> Flight Envelope Expansion : All these days they have been exactly doing these however they are going very slow in exploring the last end envelope *due to if any crash if happens will *bring out *various knives *from various peoples in their own vested interests.


The problem with fanboys is thair limited knowledge of aircraft. All these day LCA was flying, for the sake of it, which does not contribute towards flight envolpe data. Your apprehensions of LCA crash well it just shows the confidence ADA have in LCA.

*MMR: HERE IS THE TRUE STORY*
Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) will provide a radar system for a new fighter plane India has been developing for the past few years(make few decades), Yedioth Ahronot reported on Monday.

The deal may be worth hundreds of millions of dollars, the newspaper said.
*India&#8217;s electronics industry has been unable to build a radar system* for the new jet, and recently IAI head Itzhak Nissan visited the country and reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system.
The least you can expect from India is radar, which India has good experiance and considered good in soft skill set.. Ah!, if DRDO fail here also after 25 years, which they have experiance and body of knowledge, what more can you say!! 

I can go on and rebuke all the points you mentioned, but if some people like to be in fantasy land and delusion, let them be. 

Nice dreaming


----------



## BATMAN

Some more answers in below given article, but I believe nothing is illegal with it, as long Indians can afford it. 
For sure the common sense is that it would have been much cheaper for Indians if they would have strike deals with foreign manufactures for local assembling same as they did with mig or sukhoi etc. 
Next is that Indians should quit making any more ideginous attempts because IMO, looking at the amount of technology and knowledge transfered by Israelis, Russians, Europeans and Americans (whole world has helped in LCA) is enough to enable even a cow to produce positive results within a time frame.
As yet of today no Engine has been finalised. I wonder how soon fanboys see it being deployed against JF-17.

Overseas Firms Bid For Role in Indias LCA 
DefenseNews.com - Overseas Firms Bid For Role in Indias LCA - 08/20/07 19:04
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI 


> Agencies developing Indias indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) are looking for overseas partners to conduct the flight tests.
> The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, which is responsible for design, monitoring and development of the LCA, has already received bids from overseas defense companies for design and development work in the flight-testing stage.
> A senior official of ADA, an autonomous agency under the Defence Ministrys Research and Development Organisation, confirmed that bids have been received from Boeing, Dassault, EADS, Lockheed Martin, the MiG Corp. and Saab following a June global tender.
> The work will include flight envelope expansion; high-angle-of-attack flight testing; aero-data validation and upgrades; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation, modeling and testing; wake modeling and wake-penetration flight tests; and refinements to simulation.
> The LCA is now preparing to enter the weapon integration stage. About 600 flight tests have been carried out, the ADA official said.
> The aim is to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) with the multimode radar integrated with a weapon suite, which will give the aircraft limited operational capability by 2010. The aircraft could be inducted into the Air Force at that stage, the ADA official said, but another three years and about 1,500 hours of flight testing would be needed to move from IOC to final operational clearance.
> Eight limited-series production aircraft, two technical demonstrators and five prototypes are part of the LCAs design and development program. The Indian Air Force has placed an order for 20 aircraft and is expected to order at least another 200 once the LCA is successfully inducted.
> The LCA is a single-seat, single-engine, supersonic air-superiority fighter designed for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea combat roles.
> Conceived in 1983, the LCAs project definition phase was completed in 1989 and full-scale engineering development was sanctioned in 1993.
> The LCAs development is spearheaded by the ADA. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. is the principal partner in the project. 
> E-mail: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.


----------



## joey

Titanium said:


> Seems The fanboys would not like the bearer of bad news, are all the defence journalist are misreporting? I don't think so. The problem with fanboys is they want to see miracles, but they should realise that days of Mahabharata is over. No one will chant mantra and lo behold vimana aka LCA will be realised. If the journalist with acess to all the official misreport, do you think they will be in business. Calling them untrust worthy, working against national interest will not make LCA fly, How would you like being called Jingostic Dumba$$? Joey give the guys the credit and accept that LCA is not coming soon.



You are using enough offensive words, fine enough, I have not said journalists are working against national interest, I have previously laid out a systematic approach to prove the journalistic claims, without talking much you shall let your official actions speak more in proving them rather than writing history and I shall let my actions in proving their credibility in parallel. In light of that Your intelligency speaks for yourself. obviously it was so much outclassed that you even started quoting me out of context in the other thread just for the sake of rolling your point in.  

As of Force being wrong , Yes they have been wrong each and every time before and nothing they have said is correct as of yet atleast from Mr Sengupta, You can prove the contrary and take the cup else why dont you learn to speakt not without proper proof? I claimed Force in uneliable because of its tall claims which does not translated to action.

For starters like you you can begin with proving,

1. How IRBIS is AESA and not PESA.a
2. How we will be installing IRBIS from 2010 onwards replacing BARS.
3. LRAAM JV with Brazil.
4. X guard system for MKI.

This is only beginning...

Infact I'd be happiest if what they says is correct, India is unable to develope a MMR, got in JV with Israel to develope a AESA (upscaling the 2052 with frontend Israeli software and backend Indian hardware) with some of backend systems developed for MMR. It would be really great and would be quantum jump in capabilities for LCA. What will I get? peoples like you will be triumphating where you will be worshipped on how un-indigenous LCA is, while it will be happily flying with a AESA.



> The problem with fanboys is thair limited knowledge of aircraft. All these day LCA was flying, for the sake of it, which does not contribute towards flight envolpe data. Your apprehensions of LCA crash well it just shows the confidence ADA have in LCA.



And it seems you have real knowledge regarding LCA? and why dont you claim what you think in international aviation forums? You can never be a pot and meet the kettle.  Believe what you want to, I dont give a squat about it.  

And You seem also to have handled a project which relates to fcs programming, why dont you put up such a issue of how confidence level translates to that of with a bird when it is the first FBW it has designed from scratch? oh wait you will only pooh pooh on the same here, be a man come to other intnl forums where peoples working in various aviation field will appreciate your great knowledge or level of understanding aind interpreting things?




> *MMR: HERE IS THE TRUE STORY*
> Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) will provide a radar system for a new fighter plane India has been developing for the past few years(make few decades), Yedioth Ahronot reported on Monday.



Yes very correct they would be providing the Elm 2032 to power the initial batch of the LCA which will definitely be a million dollar contract but wont be a multi-million dollar contract. thats absurd infact I did read somewhere ELM 2052 costs arouns 5mn$ per set, which is pretty much costly affair for AESA, and I'm talking of a PDP here!



> The deal may be worth *hundreds of millions of dollars*, the newspaper said.
> *India&#8217;s electronics industry has been unable to build a radar system* for the new jet, and recently IAI head Itzhak Nissan visited the country and reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system.



I did not quite got you because hundreds of millions of dollars cannot be for a pulse doplar radar? Infact it cannot be by any means anything other than AESA, the amount of money is insane. When we are already installing the 2032 in various other platforms which is quite akin to the MMR, we can simply install the 2032 and dump the MMR in that case (we have installed 2032 in Jaguar/Harrier so commanility comes). The newspaper says India was unable to develope a radar? Lets take it for granted so you will see a AESA for LCA instead of MMR? Why not just wait and see then? 

Regarding MMR let me remind you I have posted a newsletter from BARC/ECIL who have completed developing and serial production has started for airborne qualified antennae platform and the required subsystem, Rest which are the backend system had been developed way back and open source informations are available. So I think there should not be any questions here regarding MMR.

So yes if LCA gets a AESA, I'll believe you India failed to develope a MMR in right time or it can be modification of ASR which can be known only from MOD report until then can you shut up without putting the right information in the table or simply be prepared to get ignored like hundreds.

I think you need to read what I said in right mind without prejudice, now this would be akin to asking to asking a tiger not to attack a harmless deer, but still I'd say again, and one more thing NOTHING of what Israels defence contracts are COMES OUT PUBLIC, until reported by their own outsets, Your can prove me wrong again just like you did in the other thread.



> The least you can expect from India is radar, which India has good experiance and considered good in soft skill set.. Ah!, if DRDO fail here also after 25 years, which they have experiance and body of knowledge, what more can you say!!



Was this a compliment? radar developement started 25 years back?



> I can go on and rebuke all the points you mentioned, but if some people like to be in fantasy land and delusion, let them be.
> 
> Nice dreaming



Just like you rebuked in the other thread?  Lets believe what flightglobal says, what about your tall claims of LCA's design beinng need to send into drawing stage to solve thrust issue?  You can go on and keep replying me , just like you will do again what does it proves? nothing because you cannot come to any neutral forum to prove your point, ofcourse your replies will be very short there as the priviledge of using too many adjectives will be limited and ultimately led to a infraction hurting your ego all up.


----------



## joey

BATMAN, Havent you had enough on Arjun? Regarding the article please turn the page and see my reply on the same where the same article was posted, Thank you.


----------



## Titanium

joey said:


> I have not said journalists are working against national interest,
> As of Force being wrong , Yes they have been wrong each and every time before and nothing they have said is correct as of yet atleast from Mr Sengupta, You can prove the contrary and take the cup else why dont you learn to speakt not without proper proof? I claimed Force in uneliable because of its tall claims which does not translated to action.


The taunts and sarcasm are all signs of losing side and won't contribute to your argument or reputation. You start with complaining like school boy and then outright lie.. Your accusation "journalist working for vested interest" will not constitute working against national interest? According to you they are deliberately writing against pet projects, spreading disinformation, causing grief and pain for fan boys here. 


> And it seems you have real knowledge regarding LCA? and why don&#8217;t you claim what you think in international aviation forums? You can never be a pot and meet the kettle.  Believe what you want to, I don&#8217;t give a squat about it.


Unlike you I never claimed "I have more knowledge of defense THAN YOU CAN imagine" BS. The one who does these kind of immature boasting is nothing but a dum$ immature, who finds boasting like this will buy him some respect. Alas no one bought your "am more knowledgeable" BS here and in "international forums( by the way for you mental slaves(call center boys) whatever phoren is still credible!! hah). 


> And You seem also to have handled a project which relates to fcs programming, why don&#8217;t you put up such a issue of how confidence level translates to that of with a bird when it is the *first FBW it has designed from scratch*?



No, but I do know what it takes. The "indigenous" [the much abused word..can we call "indiansed" instead?] and first of its kind effort, does not prevent ADA to expand flight envolpe if they had confidence in their ability. The FBW when developed first abroad, still needed to be tested by their own designers, *no Aliens came for their help*, did they?


> oh wait you will only pooh pooh on the same here, be a man come to other intnl forums where peoples working in various aviation field will appreciate your great knowledge or level of understanding and interpreting things?


You seems to be truly impressed with PHOREN maal, you do accept that it is beyond your knowledge to engage in LCA discussion and you need Israel, europe, and amreka consultancy/joint-venture now. 



> I did not quite got you because hundreds of millions of dollars cannot be for a pulse doplar radar? Infact it cannot be by any means anything other than AESA, the amount of money is insane. When we are already installing the 2032 in various other platforms which is quite akin to the MMR, we can simply install the 2032 and dump the MMR in that case (we have installed 2032 in Jaguar/Harrier so commanility comes). The newspaper says India was unable to develope a radar? Lets take it for granted so you will see a AESA for LCA instead of MMR? Why not just wait and see then?



It is not me nor your betnior Indian journalists, it is Israel newspaper report.


> Rest which are the backend system had been developed way back and open source informations are available. So I think there should not be any questions here regarding MMR.
> 
> So yes if LCA gets a AESA, I'll believe you India failed to develope a MMR in right time or it can be modification of ASR which can be known only from MOD report until then can you shut up without putting the right information in the table or simply be prepared to get ignored like hundreds.


.

Will you stop, am not able to laugh now.... 


> Was this a compliment? radar developement started 25 years back?


No dear, am just querying the tall claims of radar experience and powerhouse in soft skill set. Is there no substance to the claim?

.


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## Bull

Titanium said:


> The taunts and sarcasm are all signs of losing side and won't contribute to your argument or reputation. You start with complaining like school boy and then outright lie.. Your accusation "journalist working for vested interest" will not constitute working against national interest? According to you they are deliberately writing against pet projects, spreading disinformation, causing grief and pain for fan boys here.
> 
> Unlike you I never claimed "I have more knowledge of defense THAN YOU CAN imagine" BS. The one who does these kind of immature boasting is nothing but a dum$ immature, who finds boasting like this will buy him some respect. Alas no one bought your "am more knowledgeable" BS here and in "international forums( by the way for you mental slaves(call center boys) whatever phoren is still credible!! hah).
> 
> 
> No, but I do know what it takes. The "indigenous" [the much abused word..can we call "indiansed" instead?] and first of its kind effort, does not prevent ADA to expand flight envolpe if they had confidence in their ability. The FBW when developed first abroad, still needed to be tested by their own designers, *no Aliens came for their help*, did they?
> 
> You seems to be truly impressed with PHOREN maal, you do accept that it is beyond your knowledge to engage in LCA discussion and you need Israel, europe, and amreka consultancy/joint-venture now.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not me nor your betnior Indian journalists, it is Israel newspaper report.
> .
> 
> Will you stop, am not able to laugh now....
> 
> No dear, am just querying the tall claims of radar experience and powerhouse in soft skill set. Is there no substance to the claim?
> 
> .



None of what you say amount to anything that constitutes a tech debate but just ranting - that suites a Pakistani troll.


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## Titanium

Thats all you could muster, when LCA is dissected to the bone? Do you have anything to add?, if not mind your own copy paste news reports in the form of new threads. ok?


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## Bull

Titanium said:


> Thats all you could muster, when LCA is dissected to the bone? Do you have anything to add?, if not mind your own copy paste news reports in the form of new threads. ok?



See i said you are a troll.


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## Titanium

Bull said:


> See i said you are a troll.



Welcom, your gang memebers also bestowed me this honor, so no surprises there.

*Now new drama :*

Bangalore: The three players most tied up with the Tejas, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme  the user (the Indian Air Force), the designer Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)  will come together on Saturday for their monthly review meeting( _feasability of contunuing LCA, I think_). But this months Bangalore meeting will be anything but routine. 

The drop tanks are expendable and jettisonable external fuel tanks carried by the aircraft giving it longer endurance and range, enabling pilots to fly longer. An important milestone for the LCA programme, the first flight with drop tanks could happen next week. A successful run with drop tanks will enable ADA to move into the LCAs weaponisation programme, where the R 73 air-to-air missile and bombs will be integrated onto the aircraft. The LCA is already flying with dummy missiles . 

But it will be issues on the ground that will take centre stage. *With questions over the LCAs combat performance especially climb, acceleration and how fast it could turn at certain altitudes having cropped up during the recent sea trails at Arakonnam*, a detailed assessment of what can be managed within the time frame will have to be undertaken. Sources said the *IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic*.  

According to the Defence Research and Development Organisations Chief Controller Research and Development (Aeronautics and Material Science) D. Banerjee, *there is no doubt that the aircraft and engine have to improve, but any improvements will have to suit the time frame*. _Dear what did I told you_

_The IAF will have to be asked how many aircraft they take with the current performance._ Funny isn't it 

Dr. Banerjee under whom ADA functions, told The Hindu that* improvements can be made to the aero dynamism of the aircraft by technical cleaning to remove drag,* (Did I not told you Joey )and also improving the LCAs propulsion system. &#822; 0;We knew when the GE 404 (engine) was installed that there will be issues. The question is can we look for an alternative engine? Can we improve the performance by using the GE 404 IN20? These questions have to be answered.

Commenting on the long delayed Kaveri engine, which if ready could have solved the propulsion problem, Dr. Banerjee said that while it was operating on full design capacity on dry thrust (50 kilo Newton), it was only achieving 90 per cent aft burner thrust (80 kN). *It was also 15 per cent overweight, an issue that was killing it.* The Gas Turbine Research Establishment that is developing the Kaveri is still looking to find a partner who will bring in technology to build the hot end section (turbine and high pressure compression) of the Kaveri.

Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Nak Brown will head the IAFs team at Saturdays review meeting.


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## Bull

Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful first flight with two 800 Ltr drop tanks slung under the wing stations. The flight is significant on several counts. This is the first time Tejas carried any stores other than the Air-to-air missiles which are part of its operational clean configuration. The flight also proved the functionalities of the on-board Stores Management System (SMS) as well as the Control Law (CLAW) of the Integrated Digital Fly-by-wire Control System in the Heavy stores mode. Accordingly, todays flight achieved a significant milestone for the programme, taking it closer to operational clearance for induction into service. 
Tejas PV1 was flown by the National Flight Test Centre Test Pilot, Wg Cdr N Tiwari and the Test Director for flight was Wg Cdr M Prabhu. A Jaguar trainer aircraft of ASTE Air Force flown by Wg Cdr RR Tyagi and Sqn Ldr Sangwan was used as chase for this landmark flight. 

The flight lasted for about 45 minutes during which the mobile telemetry developed by the National Flight Test Centre for out station flight trials was also checked out.


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## ied_blast

Bull said:


> Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful first flight with two 800 Ltr drop tanks slung under the wing stations. The flight is significant on several counts. This is the first time Tejas carried any stores other than the Air-to-air missiles which are part of its operational clean configuration. The flight also proved the functionalities of the on-board Stores Management System (SMS) as well as the Control Law (CLAW) of the Integrated Digital Fly-by-wire Control System in the Heavy stores mode. Accordingly, todays flight achieved a significant milestone for the programme, taking it closer to operational clearance for induction into service.
> Tejas PV1 was flown by the National Flight Test Centre Test Pilot, Wg Cdr N Tiwari and the Test Director for flight was Wg Cdr M Prabhu. A Jaguar trainer aircraft of ASTE Air Force flown by Wg Cdr RR Tyagi and Sqn Ldr Sangwan was used as chase for this landmark flight.
> 
> The flight lasted for about 45 minutes during which the mobile telemetry developed by the National Flight Test Centre for out station flight trials was also checked out.



sexy


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## IceCold

Looks more like a mirage to me or is it really indeed a mirage with adobe photoshop in play here.


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## Bull

The naval version of India's long-delayed Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) will make its maiden flight by mid-2008, according to a senior programme official. Air force sources, meanwhile, have highlighted new problems with the aircraft. 

P S Subramanyam, programme director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is overseeing development of the locally designed aircraft, said on 1 September that two naval LCA prototypes capable of carrier operations had been approved. The aircraft have a larger cockpit and canopy than the Tejas designed for the Indian Air Force (IAF). 

The Indian Navy has a long-standing projected requirement for a mix of 40 two-seat and single-seat LCAs for carrier deployment. 

Speaking at the Aeronautical Society of India, Subramanyam also revealed details of the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA): a twin-engine fighter being developed by the ADA for strike missions. 

Planned as an advanced LCA version, the proposed MCA, which is still awaiting governmental approval, would encompass stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise features. 

The ADA is also developing a supersonic lead-in fighter trainer to better prepare combat pilots at affordable prices, Subramanyam said. Official sources have not ruled out an international collaboration on both projects. 

Image: HAL's Tejas aircraft have undergone almost 750 test flights, but problems persist (Patrick Allen/Jane's)


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## water bamboo

Naval version? Indian even can't independently resolve the present problems, and every body understand this country never finished its ambition plans on time, mirage only can comfort some dreamers, but truth will continuously harry them.


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## Flintlock

water bamboo said:


> Naval version? Indian even can't independently resolve the present problems, and every body understand this country never finished its ambition plans on time, mirage only can comfort some dreamers, but truth will continuously harry them.



HAHA!! I like your optimism!! Being Chinese and all....you do have vested interests though 

Building a fighter jet is a ridiculously complex process guys, we shouldn't just sit here and mouth off about the difficulties and delays. I bet China took a good 30 years to finally mature its industry to produce the J-10s and JF-17s!! 
India is lagging....but don't you worry, we'll catch up!!


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## Best of the Best

Stealth Assassin said:


> HAHA!! I like your optimism!! Being Chinese and all....you do have vested interests though
> 
> Building a fighter jet is a ridiculously complex process guys, we shouldn't just sit here and mouth off about the difficulties and delays. I bet China took a good 30 years to finally mature its industry to produce the J-10s and JF-17s!!
> India is lagging....but don't you worry, we'll catch up!!



Yeah you guys are catching up but the problem is india tries to bulid everything for scratch rather then buying off the shelf technology best example the karvi engine it was better if you guys sticked with GE-404 or have bought RD series of engine just like we did for thunder and then like it or not DRDO has a big hand in spoiling your projects rather then making them but i am sure you guys will get there.


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## Flintlock

Best of the Best said:


> Yeah you guys are catching up but the problem is india tries to bulid everything for scratch rather then buying off the shelf technology best example the karvi engine it was better if you guys sticked with GE-404 or have bought RD series of engine just like we did for thunder and then like it or not DRDO has a big hand in spoiling your projects rather then making them but i am sure you guys will get there.



Oh come on!! Building it from scratch should be the ultimate aim!! 

If India wants to be a major power, it will have to be self sufficient in military tech! That is exactly what India is doing. It is making as much of the equipment as possible, and getting foreign help in specific areas!! Its the perfect solution!! There are no hassles with TOT, and we can totally internalize the tech and then carry out further research in our own labs!! 

Yeahm DRDO has had problems, what with bureaucracy and red-tape. But we can see private companies coming into the fray now, which is great news. It will really speed up future projects if Indian firms start developing homegrown expertise.


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## Best of the Best

Stealth Assassin said:


> Oh come on!! Building it from scratch should be the ultimate aim!!
> 
> If India wants to be a major power, it will have to be self sufficient in military tech! That is exactly what India is doing. It is making as much of the equipment as possible, and getting foreign help in specific areas!! Its the perfect solution!! There are no hassles with TOT, and we can totally internalize the tech and then carry out further research in our own labs!!




If thats the case then india shouldnt have joined the Russian 5th generation fighter project aka PAK-FA but it indeed is in a JV, reason being it cant make a 5th generation fighter without any help besides Americans,Russians,
Europians and Chinese no one really can at the moment. see i am not trying to prove you wrong or anything just saying LCA project was started 20+ years ago or so and still it hasnt been inducted into the airforce my point was that LCA could also have been a JV with Russia or perhaps America if it was possiable to do so, yes it could have started from scratch if it(india aviation industory)had mastered its self in some core aerospace technologies. yes you can start from scratch only if you have all the key technologys ready to make a decent plane in this case karvi was worked on the same time as LCA that was a mistake on DRDO's part.



> Yeahm DRDO has had problems, what with bureaucracy and red-tape. But we can see private companies coming into the fray now, which is great news. It will really speed up future projects if Indian firms start developing homegrown expertise.[/



Yeah that indeed is true indian firms are good at electronics,avionics and software we can see that with SU-30MKI using some indian home grown technology but a major firm like DRDO needs to get its act straight.


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## Flintlock

Best of the Best said:


> If thats the case then india shouldnt have joined the Russian 5th generation fighter project aka PAK-FA but it indeed is in a JV, reason being it cant make a 5th generation fighter without any help besides Americans,Russians,
> Europians and Chinese no one really can at the moment. see i am not trying to prove you wrong or anything just saying LCA project was started 20+ years ago or so and still it hasnt been inducted into the airforce my point was that LCA could also have been a JV with Russia or perhaps America if it was possiable to do so, yes it could have started from scratch if it(india aviation industory)had mastered its self in some core aerospace technologies. yes you can start from scratch only if you have all the key technologys ready to make a decent plane in this case karvi was worked on the same time as LCA that was a mistake on DRDO's part..



Hah!! That one!! Well India has also begun work on the MCA, so its good that the options are being kept open!! 
Yes LCA has taken a long time. But its our first plane!! Delays shouldn't bother us especially with government agencies involved


JVs are good in the short term, but Indegenous projects, with help from foreign countries in certain specalized areas is the smartest solution imo. 

.


> Yeah that indeed is true indian firms are good at electronics,avionics and software we can see that with SU-30MKI using some indian home grown technology but a major firm like DRDO needs to get its act straight.




I don't see DRDO getting its "act straight" in the near future. What will happen is public-private partnership, with DRDO oursourcing all the specalized work to Indian and foreign firms.


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## sohail_shah

Does'nt India have Cruise Missiles before Pakistan's Babur Launch, did'nt Russia helped them to built Brahamos Missile or not . Why Indian always try to blame Chine Pakistan friendship, they can build anything but not Pakistan. What A hypocracy by Indian Govt. Russian cant to give Engines to Paksitan JF-17, but can supply 200+Su 30 MKI , Nuclear Subs, Aircraft Carrier and many more to India. Why India is afraid of Pakistan..they are 3 time bigger than us, in every aspect (Military, Population, Area, Economy)but why ??


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## Bull

sohail_shah said:


> Does'nt India have Cruise Missiles before Pakistan's Babur Launch, did'nt Russia helped them to built Brahamos Missile or not . Why Indian always try to blame Chine Pakistan friendship, they can build anything but not Pakistan. What A hypocracy by Indian Govt. Russian cant to give Engines to Paksitan JF-17, but can supply 200+Su 30 MKI , Nuclear Subs, Aircraft Carrier and many more to India. Why India is afraid of Pakistan..they are 3 time bigger than us, in every aspect (Military, Population, Area, Economy)but why ??



Wrong thread, wrong post, good whining.


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## bhangra12345

Bull said:


> Wrong thread, wrong post, good whining.



I second that.


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## IceCold

Instead of lashing all out on him tell him the proper thread for him to ask a question like that and if we do respond him in time, he might not find the need to write it in every thread.


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## Bull

IceCold said:


> Instead of lashing all out on him tell him the proper thread for him to ask a question like that and if we do respond him in time, he might not find the need to write it in every thread.



Ice, he was written the same stuff in three other threads too.


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> Ice, he was written the same stuff in three other threads too.



Yes it seems he has.....

Guys when you find stuff like this can you report it please. As far as I am concerned writing the same thing in 4 or 5 threads constitutes spamming.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> Yes it seems he has.....
> 
> Guys when you find stuff like this can you report it please. As far as I am concerned writing the same thing in 4 or 5 threads constitutes spamming.



Ok nxt time.


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## ied_blast

sohail_shah said:


> Does'nt India have Cruise Missiles before Pakistan's Babur Launch, did'nt Russia helped them to built Brahamos Missile or not . Why Indian always try to blame Chine Pakistan friendship, they can build anything but not Pakistan. What A hypocracy by Indian Govt. Russian cant to give Engines to Paksitan JF-17, but can supply 200+Su 30 MKI , Nuclear Subs, Aircraft Carrier and many more to India. Why India is afraid of Pakistan..they are 3 time bigger than us, in every aspect (Military, Population, Area, Economy)but why ??



aare yaar tu to gussa ho gaya
look mate military might is not like "crude oil" every one should get it
in international politics nations behaves like that so chill.


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## water bamboo

Stealth Assassin said:


> HAHA!! I like your optimism!! Being Chinese and all....you do have vested interests though
> 
> Building a fighter jet is a ridiculously complex process guys, we shouldn't just sit here and mouth off about the difficulties and delays. I bet China took a good 30 years to finally mature its industry to produce the J-10s and JF-17s!!
> India is lagging....but don't you worry, we'll catch up!!



Dude! what you will catch up? when you did grimaces to me, the gap between China and India is constantly expanding, LOL,only the population you will come up with us, but without literacy! And then check your industry technology, even a 155MM hewitzer you can't produce, we have exported ours to the world, wake up, please!


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## water bamboo

sohail_shah said:


> Does'nt India have Cruise Missiles before Pakistan's Babur Launch, did'nt Russia helped them to built Brahamos Missile or not . Why Indian always try to blame Chine Pakistan friendship, they can build anything but not Pakistan. What A hypocracy by Indian Govt. Russian cant to give Engines to Paksitan JF-17, but can supply 200+Su 30 MKI , Nuclear Subs, Aircraft Carrier and many more to India. Why India is afraid of Pakistan..they are 3 time bigger than us, in every aspect (Military, Population, Area, Economy)but why ??



don't worry about that, my brother! Russian can't offer engine to JF-17, China will sent J10 to Pakistan, and If India get nuk subs, we will help you build Pakistani nuclear submarines and transfer core technologies to our brother,


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## KENT

water bamboo said:


> don't worry about that, my brother! Russian can't offer engine to JF-17, China will sent J10 to Pakistan, and If India get nuk subs, we will help you build Pakistani nuclear submarines and transfer core technologies to our brother,




Hello dude this is my very second post on this forum, Anyway We don't care whatever you send to Pakistani be it J-10, JF-17 or Nuclear Submarine, We have all the stuff that are needed to counter all this Chinese Toys.


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## Keysersoze

KENT said:


> Hello dude this is my very second post on this forum, Anyway We don't care whatever you send to Pakistani be it J-10, JF-17 or Nuclear Submarine, We have all the stuff that are needed to counter all this Chinese Toys.



Well you might not care but the Indian govt seems to.....otherwise they wouldn't be trying to stop sales to PAK be it Ukrainian tanks, engines in Chinese aircraft etc etc


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## KENT

Keysersoze said:


> Well you might not care but the Indian govt seems to.....otherwise they wouldn't be trying to stop sales to PAK be it Ukrainian tanks, engines in Chinese aircraft etc etc




Afterall it is the part of diplomacy, Indian Govt have really exercise this tactic really well in the past as well. Strong Bilateral relation with Russian have always offset supply of any lethal weapon to Pak, since russian weapons are by their origin are very cheap.


----------



## Keysersoze

KENT said:


> Afterall it is the part of diplomacy, Indian Govt have really exercise this tactic really well in the past as well. Strong Bilateral relation with Russian have always offset supply of any lethal weapon to Pak, since russian weapons are by their origin are very cheap.



So they do care or they don't care? it kind of puts paid to your previous theory right?


----------



## Titanium

KENT said:


> Afterall it is the part of diplomacy, Indian Govt have really exercise this tactic really well in the past as well.



More like chanukya neti


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

*India begins weaponisation of fighter aircraft​*
ibnlive.com
Published on Thursday , October 25, 2007 at 20:27 in Nation section 


New Delhi: India on Thursday began weaponisation of fighter aircraft with the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' successfully test-firing a close combat air-to-air missile off the Goa coast for the first time.


_*The LCA fired a Russian R-73 air-to-air missile during a technology demonstrator flight. It was the most significant milestone for the 'Tejas' programme.*_ 


The historic flight was done on Tejas prototype vehicle PV-1, piloted by the Chief Test Pilot of the National Flight Test Centre ADA, Gp Capt N Harish. The test-firing was done at 7 km altitude and 0.6 Mach. 


The flight test was conducted from the mobile telemetry vehicle where all the aircraft, systems and weapon data were closely monitored. 


Quick analysis of the data revealed that it was a &#8216;text book&#8217; launch where the systems performance matched the predictions well. 

The historic event marks the beginning of weaponisation, which is the focus of the current initial operational clearance (IOC) phase of the programme, he said. 


A Defence Ministry official said the much-delayed indigenous fighter is now almost ready for flight certification. The initial operational configuration for the fighter is expected between 2011-12 and the aircraft will be fully operational by 2013.


Air-to-air missile integration and testing, especially on a fly-by-wire aircraft, is a very complex task involving interfaces with aerodynamics, engine air intake, control laws, flight control system, avionics system, electrical and other general system of aircraft.


The Indian Air Force has already placed orders for 20 LCAs with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with a provision for buying another 20 in the same contract. 

India begins weaponisation of fighter aircraft


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

According to NDTV.

It was aimed at validating the safe separation of the missile from the parent aircraft, effect of missile plume on engine airtake, functionality of store management system, including safety interlocks, effect of missile plume on composite structure and handling quality assessment during missile launch.

The flight was a 'text book' launch where the systems performance matched the predictions well.

''The event has proven the capability of the composite team comprising designers, production agency, certification agency, flight test, user agency to integrate and flight test an advanced missile on an advanced fighter aircraft Tejas,'' the release said.

NDTV.com: India begins Tejas' weaponisation


----------



## con

Video of the test.


----------



## su-47

Excellent. Now the next milestones would be launching a BVR missile, deploying air-to-surface weapons, and mid-air refuelling


----------



## KENT

Can anyone guess which aerial target may have designated to get shotdown by R-73 equipped Tejas?


----------



## su-47

probably a cheap drone


----------



## bhangra12345

As far as I know, no radar has yet been integrated in lca, so no target acquistion 

so basically he was shooting for the stars.


----------



## KENT

BANGALORE: The programme to weaponise the indigenous fly-by-wire Light Combat Aircraft Tejas crossed a major milestone on Thursday with a close air combat missile being flawlessly test-fired from the aircraft. 

Taking off from INS Hansa, the Naval air station in Vasco (Goa), Prototype Vehicle 1 piloted by the Chief Test Pilot of the National Flight Test Centre Group Captain N Harish, reached an altitude of 6.5 km and a speed of 0.6 mach before the R73 E Russian-made missile was fired in &#8220;the autonomous mode&#8221; from the aircraft&#8217;s left wing tip. 

The firing of the &#8216;find, fire and forget&#8217; air-to-air missile also demonstrated the health and handling of the aircraft during the actual firing, the dealing of unwanted frequencies that occur not just during flutter disturbances and while pulling through G, but even when a missile leaves the aircraft, effects of missile plume on engine air-intake and on composite structures like the wing surface, and missile separation aspects. The structural test proved the successful mating and circuitry between the aircraft and the missile. 

However being unguided, the firing was not an accuracy test, there being no target. Also with the missile test-fired in the safest speed and part of the flying envelope, operational clearances will now have to be undertaken at the corner points of the envelope, at low speed-low altitude, low speed-high altitude, high speed-low altitude, high speed-high altitude and under high G conditions. 

Speaking to The Hindu minutes after the successful firing, P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director of the LCA programme, said that the firing of the missile was a clear indication that India is now capable of integrating missiles to a fighter aircraft. &#8220;The multi-organisational and multi-dimensional integration and firing of the missile involved aspects such as structures, aerodynamics, flight mechanics, avionics, general systems and propulsion. The LCA team supported by the Indian Air Force, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, National Aerospace Laboratories, other defence public sector enterprises, the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification have all partnered to demonstrate this integration capability.&#8221; 

According to Mr. Subramanyam, the autonomous firing of the missile, which was a first for the country, was achieved in the face of great odds. 

&#8220;Three years ago we were told by the (missile&#8217;s) vendor that we will not be able to do it on our own and that only they could demonstrate it for us. They were also not prepared to share information on it. The knowledge that we have now gained will give us the confidence to integrate any missile on any fighter aircraft.&#8221; 

The next major step is target acquisition and fire control which will however take off only after the multi-mode radar (MMR) is fitted on the aircraft. 
The MMR which is being developed with key components from the Israelis could be fitted before the end of the year. 

Drop tanks which will enhance the Tejas&#8217; endurance capabilities have been fitted but having sprung a leak they are currently non-operational. 

The Rs. 5,500 crore LCA programme has so far undertaken 763 flights, but is still some distance away from its initial and final operational clearances.


----------



## Titanium

Cross posted
*Have the IAF, Accepting LCA with with lower performance than set out in ASR?*



> The LCA is already flying with dummy missiles
> 
> Air Marshal Nak Brown will head the IAFs team
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Bangalore: The three players most tied up with the Tejas, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme  the user (the Indian Air Force), the designer Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)  will come together on Saturday for their monthly review meeting. But this months Bangalore meeting will be anything but routine.
> 
> On the flying front, the LCAs PV-1 (prototype vehicle) is expected to undertake its first low speed taxi run after the integration of drop tanks. The low speed taxi run where the aircraft is pushed to almost its take-off speed but does not actually take off, is the prelude to the actual first flight with drop tanks.
> 
> The drop tanks are expendable and jettisonable external fuel tanks carried by the aircraft giving it longer endurance and range, enabling pilots to fly longer. An important milestone for the LCA programme, the first flight with drop tanks could happen next week. A successful run with drop tanks will enable ADA to move into the LCAs weaponisation programme, *where the R 73 air-to-air missile and bombs will be integrated onto the aircraft*. The LCA is already flying with dummy missiles.
> 
> But it will be issues on the ground that will take centre stage. *With questions over the LCAs combat performance especially climb, acceleration and how fast it could turn at certain altitudes having cropped up during the recent sea trails at Arakonnam, a detailed assessment of what can be managed within the time frame will have to be undertaken. Sources said the IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic.*
> 
> According to the Defence Research and Development Organisations Chief Controller Research and Development (Aeronautics and Material Science) D. Banerjee, there is no doubt that the aircraft and engine have to improve, but any improvements will have to suit the time frame.
> 
> *The IAF will have to be asked how many aircraft they take with the current performance.*
> 
> Dr. Banerjee under whom ADA functions, told The Hindu that improvements can be made to the aero dynamism of the aircraft by technical cleaning to remove drag, and also improving the LCAs propulsion system.


----------



## Flintlock

The article is pure speculation. 

We don't know what the original demands of the IAF were, so we can't comment on the "lowering of certain aspects" either.

The article clearly indicates that further versions will offer improved performance, but given the timeframe, it will not be possible to incorporate too many improvements into the current version.


----------



## Titanium

Stealth Assassin said:


> The article is pure speculation.
> 
> We don't know what the original demands of the IAF were, so we can't comment on the "lowering of certain aspects" either.
> 
> The article clearly indicates that further versions will offer improved performance, but given the timeframe, it will not be possible to incorporate too many improvements into the current version,



I understand your reaction to any news not to your likings, it is old excuse and full in the forum.

Am just enquiring whether IAF is going ahead with whatever present performance available with LCA?

Sure further version will improve, as like our processor speed improves every six month


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> I understand your reaction to any news not to your likings, it is old excuse and full in the forum.
> 
> Am just enquiring whether IAF is going ahead with whatever present performance available with LCA?
> 
> Sure further version will improve, as like our processor speed improves every six month



Well there are 2 ways to look at this news, and l'd say that the positive way is more dependable, considering the amount of media speculation and "expert opinions" that always follow any defence equipment.

A great example is the Osprey, newly inducted in to the US army. This aircraft has claimed over 30 lives in test flights and is being torn apart in the media.

However, the people who operate the aircraft seem to love it.....so I'd go with them rather than channels like Fox news and bogus experts.


----------



## Titanium

Stealth Assassin said:


> A great example is the Osprey, newly inducted in to the US army. This aircraft has claimed over 30 lives in test flights and is being torn apart in the media.
> 
> However, the people who operate the aircraft seem to love it.....so I'd go with them rather than channels like Fox news and bogus experts.



I would second that..... graet irony!, Is'n it?

The people who matter here is the one who use it( Salute to USAF for backing Spray and paying through their lives...great system). But here with India it is complete opposite  

IAF does not want LCA, unless to their specification but, what did you used, ya bogus expert shove it down their throat with less than the agreed specs.

Indian Army is crying from 1995, that they don't want Arjun MBT, but every year they have to have mandatory trail of Arjun only to find out it is not suitable.

What should we do to media and Bogus expert, not lisenting to the men who matter


----------



## Bull

Titanium said:


> Cross posted
> *Have the IAF, Accepting LCA with with lower performance than set out in ASR?*



IAF might have asked for F-35 stealth!!!


----------



## Bull

Titanium said:


> I would second that..... graet irony!, Is'n it?
> 
> The people who matter here is the one who use it( Salute to USAF for backing Spray and paying through their lives...great system). But here with India it is complete opposite
> 
> IAF does not want LCA, unless to their specification but, what did you used, ya bogus expert shove it down their throat with less than the agreed specs.
> 
> Indian Army is crying from 1995, that they don't want Arjun MBT, but every year they have to have mandatory trail of Arjun only to find out it is not suitable.
> 
> What should we do to media and Bogus expert, not lisenting to the men who matter



Very true Titanium!!! Happy.


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> The people who matter here is the one who use it( Salute to USAF for backing Spray and paying through their lives...great system). But here with India it is complete opposite





Well, actually its the Congress which backed the Osprey,and Cheney wanted to halt the project. The US army doesn't seem to happy either...they are complaining about the changes required in the SOPs and the specific kinds of environments it cant be used.
However, the pilots themselves say it offers great advantages.





> IAF does not want LCA, unless to their specification but, what did you used, ya bogus expert shove it down their throat with less than the agreed specs.



Huh? IAF wants LCA...badly. LCA is the best aircraft to make the backbone in the future. 

They offer fantastic performance for their class.

In addition, they are lightweight, easy to manufacture and repair, low maintenance, and cheap.

They obviously cannot match up to the Sukhois, but they were never supposed to.

The LCA was envisioned as a lightweight bird to fill the numbers, not as the teeth of the IAF. Kindly get that straight.




> Indian Army is crying from 1995, that they don't want Arjun MBT, but every year they have to have mandatory trail of Arjun only to find out it is not suitable.



You kidding rite? Indian army itself ordered the project and set the specifications.

Unfortunately, it seems that the kind of performance demanded by the army couldn't be fitted into a lighweight tank. Not surprising, since no other tank has been able to achieve the same either.

Also, don't go around believing everything they say in the media. the media is always looking for a way to ridicule the government (which is great btw).

The army was always behind the project, and still is. Taking half-baked news reports as gospel is rather silly.

Of course, being a govt. project, it tends to be very slow....however, the final product, most veterans and tank operators agree, is a much needed boost for India's armour. 



> What should we do to media and Bogus expert, not lisenting to the men who matter



Exactly.


----------



## Titanium

Bull said:


> IAF might have asked for F-35 stealth!!!



What IAF wants, maybe Raptor which they will get aka PAK-FA from Russia. But are they getting what they expected of LCA? No



> *IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic. *



Are they accepting the lower spec LCA and not insist on "Unrealistic" expectation from DRDO?

*The IAF will have to be asked how many aircraft they take with the current performance*.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> What IAF wants, maybe Raptor which they will get aka PAK-FA from Russia. But are they getting what they expected of LCA? No



So what is IAF expecting of LCA? Please enlighten us all.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> So what is IAF expecting of LCA? Please enlighten us all.



Read my Above post, if you still did not get, I will increase the font size:

IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic.


----------



## Titanium

Drop tank Leaking? Save the poor pilots.



> Drop tanks which will enhance the Tejas&#8217; endurance capabilities have been fitted but having *sprung a leak *they are currently non-operational.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Read my Above post, if you still did not get, I will increase the font size:
> 
> IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic.



And who said this? Did the report mentioned any person in position saying this? or is it IAF saying this on record? What makes you think that IAF is gonna accept a aircraft which does not meet the ASR,when it is spending 15 billion dollars on MRCA & PAk-FA? Wonder why then the IAF chief is on record stating the future IAF force structure would be made of SU30,MRCA & LCA.

LCA was meant to replace Mig-21. what do you think would have been the ASR? Stealth fighters? It is obvious that LCA would come with GE engine for the first batch,when ASR demands an Indian engine. Isn't that all a "lower ASR"? And what is the big deal in this. If IAF can consider F-18,F-16 & Gripen with American engines,i dont see why they should not take LCA with GE engines. The report is about the test engines having lower thrust than the production engines. The chap is talking about it nothing else. This aspect is known from the time development started,nothing OMG about it.

As far as ASR is concerned, IAF wanted strengthening of the wings to handle heavier missiles. ADA already re-designed the wings.And this requirement came in 2001-2002. This just proves that if IAF wants, it can get it's requirement fulfilled.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> And who said this? Did the report mentioned any person in position saying this? or is it IAF saying this on record?



Oh please do no agitate over this ... there is more information off the record than on. The reporter might be referring to the same.... 



> What makes you think that IAF is gonna accept a aircraft which does not meet the ASR,when it is spending 15 billion dollars on MRCA & PAk-FA? Wonder why then the IAF chief is on record stating the future IAF force structure would be made of SU30,MRCA & LCA


.

The above report.



> LCA was meant to replace Mig-21. what do you think would have been the ASR? Stealth fighters? It is obvious that LCA would come with GE engine for the first batch,when ASR demands an Indian engine. Isn't that all a "lower ASR"? And what is the big deal in this. If IAF can consider F-18,F-16 & Gripen with American engines,i dont see why they should not take LCA with GE engines. The report is about the test engines having lower thrust than the production engines. The chap is talking about it nothing else. This aspect is known from the time development started,nothing OMG about it.



What the ASR were during design and what today is we can speculate only, since ono one has access. Those who have the access, report that it is *not meeting the unrealistc ASR.*



> IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium, I know you are having a great time shoving that report in the faces of the Indian members here.

I think I have explained my position clearly in my earlier post. Simply increasing the font 
size isn't going to somehow drive your point home.

Unless you have some new information or details to add regarding exactly which requirements were lowered and when, this discussion is becoming quite pointless.


----------



## Titanium

Stealth Assassin said:


> Titanium, I know you are having a great time shoving that report in the faces of the Indian members here.
> 
> I think I have explained my position clearly in my earlier post. Simply increasing the font
> size isn't going to somehow drive your point home.
> 
> Unless you have some new information or details to add regarding exactly which requirements were lowered and when, this discussion is becoming quite pointless.



Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of


Nothing on the record.

that reporter is not credible,

It is planted by.......who ISI?

Outright denial...

Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)

...and just not to disappoint you the *new information *is 



> Drop tanks which will enhance the Tejas&#8217; endurance capabilities have been fitted but having *sprung a leak *they are currently non-operational.



So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of
> 
> 
> Nothing on the record.
> 
> that reporter is not credible,
> 
> It is planted by.......who ISI?
> 
> Outright denial...
> 
> Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)



There is no denial about anything. The report which you have been floating around relates to the issue of engine and the comments about "reduced" ASR related to that. Read the report once again and you will understand the context.
If you think there is denial why dont you mention what is "reduced" other than issue of the engine? All you have been doing is posting the same sentence over and over again,with nothing substantial to add.

LCA program is one of the most open aircraft development program around.Please show me more reports which indicates what is the state of weaponisation on JF-17? The missile firing test of LCA was carried out at 12 in the afternoon and the video of the test is available by 5 in the evening.
Please do point such a openness about the programs like JF-17. And dont give me the lame excuses about Chinese being secretive about such things etc.

All your arguments revolves around one liners which you dont try to understand in the first place.No one says that all reports which are critical of Indian development programs are nonsense,but you can very well make out the quality of reporting with the amount of junk they place in it.The report which you are pointing out talks about "some extraordinary meeting" b/w IAF & HAL over the future of LCA,when matter of fact these bodies meet every fornight to oversee the progress.

There were some reports about "need to re-design air intakes blah blah" when it was later found to complete hogwash.The reporter added his own spice over the issue of lower thrust in development engine by saying the air intake needs to be re-developed.
I would suggest that you carry out more research before posting one liner from reports in bold letters.It would help you put your arguments better.Posting in bold letter does not.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?



And where does it says that tanks are leaking during flights? If some drop tanks are leaking what is the big deal about it? 

How is that related to the performance of the aircraft? Do airforces around the world never have a leaking drop tanks?


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of
> 
> 
> Nothing on the record.
> 
> that reporter is not credible,





Well all those are valid arguments. The report doesn't give its source, and neither does it divulge any details.

The report states that the current version of the LCA doesn't fulfill the specs, and clearly implies that the next version will have the desired performance.

Unless we know what requirements were lowered, there is no point debating further.



> [*]Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)




.....and who might that be?




> So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?



Er...so? Its not like the wings fell off or something!! 

Just because the ADA is revealing the minute details of problems encountered doesn't indicate that the project is failing.

If you analyze the development schedule of the Raptor, Osprey etc, you will see crashes, accidents, mixups, changes in configuration and requirements etc also.

Considering this jet is developed by a govt. agency with a small fraction of the funds alloted compared to western aircraft companies,
considering the accident-free record of the design
considering that this is the first fighter jet designed in India, I am quite proud of the results.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> And where does it says that tanks are leaking during flights? If some drop tanks are leaking what is the big deal about it?
> 
> How is that related to the performance of the aircraft? *Do airforces around the world never have a leaking drop tanks*?



I have not aware of any Airforce operating with leaking drop tanks. Your experiance of the same will be helpful in bringing the matter to light.

Having said that, if it was a simple leak it would not have been highlighted, to warrent mention in report.


----------



## Titanium

Stealth Assassin said:


> Er...so? Its not like the wings fell off or something!!



Am afraid the wing and airintake are the only part tweaked from the orignial Dassult supplied Mirage III design. 

There are reports that LCA has no sufficiant thrust on account of small airintake. (Compramised for stealthy?)

and capacityof Wing to handle high load will be available only when loaded with full armaments(though I have my doubts). Till then no fatwa from me


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> *I have not aware of any Airforce operating with leaking drop tanks*


No airforce is gonna OPERATE with a leaking tank.And they are not going to complain to you about leaking tanks either,for you to be "aware" of it.




> Having said that, if it was a simple leak it would not have been highlighted, to warrent mention in report


And what more do you think could have happened with a tank? Exploded? 
Dont you think there can be a simple solution of using another tank?


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> And what more do you think could have happened with a tank? Exploded?
> Dont you think there can be a simple solution of using another tank?



If your idea of tank as is tank in truck or a container...you are way off the mark. We are talking of a tank build for supersonic speed, with sufficiant strenght to take some hit. Not to mention the compartment and it pumps for supply and all.


For your information HAL say it is made of *"TITANIUM"*, The strongest and lightest material known. 

To develop leak in such a system is cause for concern.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> If your idea of tank as is tank in truck or a container...you are way off the mark. We are talking of a tank build for supersonic speed, with sufficiant strenght to take some hit. Not to mention the compartment and it pumps for supply and all.
> 
> 
> For your information HAL say it is made of *"TITANIUM"*, The strongest and lightest material known.
> 
> To develop leak in such a system is cause for concern.



I very well know a drop tank has complex arrangements and designed for supersonic speed. The concern would come up if all the tanks have developed leak,which is not the case. 
The leak is basically due to production fault with the tank.Thats about it. They will just replace it with another one.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> I very well know a drop tank has complex arrangements and designed for supersonic speed. The concern would come up *if all the tanks have developed leak*,which is not the case.
> The leak is basically due to production fault with the tank.Thats about it. They will just replace it with another one.



That is one way of looking at it, which no doubt is simple according to you. The other side is, it may be integration issue? or Also note the sentance 


> having sprung a leak *they are *currently non-operational.


 more than one or maybe all i don't know how many manufactured. Definately quality control issue, which is also dogging Arjun production, as the :



> During oral evidence, on the quality of Arjun Tank, the non-official expert informed the Committee :-
> &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it ?&#8221;


----------



## Titanium

*Shiv Arror's take on Weaponization of LCA*

It just occured to me that the Ministry of Defence may be going slightly overboard with publicity for its defence development programmes. It took me only a second to copy and paste the day before's press release on the LCA Tejas successfully firing its first air-to-air missile (see previous post below). Read the press release carefully. *It's positively shouting from the roof about something that should be routine for fighter development -- and not some impossibly glorious moment*. If anything, it's a quietly supreme moment for its makers and creators. But to project this on the outside just makes us look stupid.

It's definitely significant, but making such a big deal about the "beginning of weaponisation" is a little rich -- it should have happened at least three years ago for starters. Second, the thing had darn well fire missiles by now if it's going to be scrubbed up for squadron service in a handful of years (with LSP units to be handed over by late 2008 or early 2009)! On the journey to self-reliance, let's get a little real about image while we're about it.

I bumped into HAL chairman Ashok Baweja at the CII Indian Aerospace Industry and was chatting with him round about the time that the Tejas in question was probably firing off its glorious R-60 off Goa. *It was a very "LCA" day, because after lunch, I was accosted by Vice Admiral (retd) Raman Puri and given a twenty-minute tongue-lashing on the Tejas and how the wrong people were being blamed for its messy, prolonged incubation journey.*

But there are hard questions about the Tejas that nobody asks -- the sort that make Admiral Puri scoff. *Those who do ask such questions are national traitors without a shred of respect. Those who don't are happy allowing both HAL and DRDO to blame the air force, assuming no measure of the blame. *This is something that must end. Sure, sanctions, mid-stream changes, and all the rest of it -- but are we positively sure that all the money we've spent on the Tejas will deliver a first-rate fighter at the end of it. More importantly, when will the IAF be in a position to judge? *HAL has had an embarassing run with the radar now to be virtually outsourced to Israel for the first twenty fighters. The less said about that blackhole of cash called Kaveri, the better. The patriotism of patience wears thin.*

_So talk of the Tejas being considered for the MRCA contract (this was a real debate at the MoD level) are not only half-baked, but positively idiotic._

After the recent Arjun MBT special report I did recently, I received an SMS from a senior DRDO scientist which said, "Celebrate successes. Our country will become strong." I couldn't agree more with this statement. But let's get real about the Tejas. Let's cut out the hogwash, and get real. We're spending way too much cold cash on imported fighters for us to no longer have our own production line of our own fighter.


----------



## zeus

ya ya MR Shiv Arror lca fired R-60 instead of R-73 ,this dude blows up his credibility again by quoting a wrong missile


----------



## Titanium

Rightly said:


*Those who do ask such questions are national traitors without a shred of respect. Those who don't are happy allowing both HAL and DRDO to blame the air force, assuming no measure of the blame. This is something that must end*


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Rightly said:
> 
> 
> *Those who do ask such questions are national traitors without a shred of respect. Those who don't are happy allowing both HAL and DRDO to blame the air force, assuming no measure of the blame. This is something that must end*



Please.... there have been hundreds of reports blaming DRDO for everything that happens in India but I have yet to see DRDO hitting back saying these people are traitors.

You are taking comments for a guy who complained that DRDO was useless becoz they could not make Prithvi, a BM into a PGM! He was expecting to convert a 3-4 tonne missile to be a PGM. He happily reported that during the recent excerise Arjun has a failure of torsion bar! Someone later had to enlighten him that Arjun does not have torsion bar suspension.

He is just giving excuses to rack up an issue to show he is "concerned" about India's defence preparedness. Read his blog report about LCA once again. He is expecting the weapon testing should have been done 3 years ago. i,e just 3 years just after LCA's first flight. Please show me which aircraft has had it's weapon testing carried out within 3 years of it's first flight.And he is expecting India which has not had a full fledged aircraft development for more than 3 decades to do it. Amazing!

I would suggest you to refer articles by good source rather than from reporters who have opinion about every defence development program in India without even knowing the difference b/w a BM & PGM!


----------



## Titanium

If he is a moron, as you are making out, he would not be earning his bread through defence reporting.

Honestly tell me a name of "Indian" journalist that anybody here approve of or his reporting. There is limit to hypocracy and namecalling.


----------



## zeus

well we have lot of defence journalist who have solid evidence to back up their claim ,

We in Indian defence circle don't give much air to reports from following so called defence journalists 

1) Ravi sharma
2) vishal tapar 
3) ajay shukla 
4) sen gupta
5 ) Shiv Aroor


----------



## Always Neutral

What is wrong in criticising DRDO ? They are definately not delivering on time and quality wise. No where in the long run has the Govt run Defence Manufacturing and come up with timely products. In the end the French Govt had to give up control of Thales or for that matter UK over BAE systems. The private sector must get involved.

I am happy the Indian journalist have the guts to stand up and ask hard questions.

Regards


----------



## Goodperson

zeus said:


> well we have lot of defence journalist who have solid evidence to back up their claim ,
> 
> We in Indian defence circle don't give much air to reports from following so called defence journalists
> 
> 1) Ravi sharma
> 2) vishal tapar
> 3) ajay shukla
> 4) sen gupta
> 5 ) Shiv Aroor



What about our favourite "Rajat Pandit" of TOI?


----------



## con

Always Neutral said:


> What is wrong in criticising DRDO ? They are definately not delivering on time and quality wise. No where in the long run has the Govt run Defence Manufacturing and come up with timely products. In the end the French Govt had to give up control of Thales or for that matter UK over BAE systems. The private sector must get involved.
> 
> I am happy the Indian journalist have the guts to stand up and ask hard questions.
> 
> Regards



There is nothing wrong in criticising DRDO.It should be criticize,given the fact that it is a govt institution and unless kept on toes they will never deliver.
However the term "criticize" is important.
The reports by some of the Indian Defence reporters are nothing but pure ranting without even knowing why/what/how things are done.

How do you expect a reporter to criticise DRDO when he expects DRDO to convert a BM missile into PGM? When I happen ask this reporter on this subject,he replied that it was mentioned by a MOD chap! So all he was doing was writing what he heard.
Any criticism to be taken serious needs that the complains should be backed with knowledge about which things are done as it is done,talk to people on both side of the coin and then point out the issues. A reporter following these steps will I dare say suggest better ways of doing things,which a read expects.

Unfortunately all these reporters do is write with the sole objective of spicing up their report. Nothing else.


----------



## Always Neutral

con said:


> There is nothing wrong in criticising DRDO.It should be criticize,given the fact that it is a govt institution and unless kept on toes they will never deliver.
> However the term "criticize" is important.
> The reports by some of the Indian Defence reporters are nothing but pure ranting without even knowing why/what/how things are done.
> 
> How do you expect a reporter to criticise DRDO when he expects DRDO to convert a BM missile into PGM? When I happen ask this reporter on this subject,he replied that it was mentioned by a MOD chap! So all he was doing was writing what he heard.
> Any criticism to be taken serious needs that the complains should be backed with knowledge about which things are done as it is done,talk to people on both side of the coin and then point out the issues. A reporter following these steps will I dare say suggest better ways of doing things,which a read expects.
> 
> *Unfortunately all these reporters do is write with the sole objective of spicing up their report. Nothing else*.



I agree but I have also read several articles by senior retired Forces officers which state that DRDO do not have very accurate internal audit systems so they do get away with a lot of inefficiencies.


----------



## con

Always Neutral said:


> I agree but I have also read several articles by senior retired Forces officers which state that DRDO do not have very accurate internal audit systems so they do get away with a lot of inefficiencies.



Yes,as I said it is a government institution. It has lot of issues,one of them which you have mentioned.You generally read these details from retired officers as they have had interaction with DRDO and know what is missing and what is needed.
These writers generally give a balanced view of things with the objective of trying to explain to the readers the issue,the cause and possible resolution.

Fortunately issues like these have so much noise that the DRDO is been treated as a spoiled kid by the govt(compared to other organization it has been giving out way better results) and changes has been proposed and put in place.

What DRDO requires is such writers,to make it a better org.


----------



## Titanium

zeus said:


> well we have lot of defence journalist who have solid evidence to back up their claim ,
> 
> We in Indian defence circle don't give much air to reports from following so called defence journalists
> 
> 1) Ravi sharma
> 2) vishal tapar
> 3) ajay shukla
> 4) sen gupta
> 5 ) Shiv Aroor



I asked for reporters, who have reported on defence matters honestly according to you people. I know every one listed above is considered idiot/lifafa what not by you people, coz they ask probing question and bring the worshipping diety of DRDO down. 

But where is the list of knwledgeable, honest reporters.


----------



## su-47

con said:


> Yes,as I said it is a government institution. It has lot of issues,one of them which you have mentioned.You generally read these details from retired officers as they have had interaction with DRDO and know what is missing and what is needed.
> These writers generally give a balanced view of things with the objective of trying to explain to the readers the issue,the cause and possible resolution.
> 
> Fortunately issues like these have so much noise that the DRDO is been treated as a spoiled kid by the govt(compared to other organization it has been giving out way better results) and changes has been proposed and put in place.
> 
> What DRDO requires is such writers,to make it a better org.



What DRDO requires is privatisation. Privatise DRDO, then allow other private firms to enter the defence sector. This will increase efficiency of Indian indegenous defence efforts


----------



## Titanium

Hope you understand what you are saying!

Privitise DRDO ...ahm!


----------



## su-47

Titanium said:


> Hope you understand what you are saying!
> 
> Privitise DRDO ...ahm!



Why? Whats the problem? Private defence firms tend to do much better than state-owned ones. Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Thales Group and Elbit Systems are good examples of quality private defence firms.

As long as the state prevents private frims from selling to enemy nations, there's no harm in privatising the defence sector


----------



## EagleEyes

Actually su-47.. I think thats what IAF ACM plans to do, or at least concerned with. India of course would do better with lots of private defence sectors competing with each other, currently it may not be able to do so, because it is yet not comprehensive enough. As the state defence industry continues to grow, it will naturally privatize, and that i am sure decision makers will look into, and execute it well.


----------



## Titanium

su-47 said:


> Why? Whats the problem? Private defence firms tend to do much better than state-owned ones. Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Thales Group and Elbit Systems are good examples of quality private defence firms.
> 
> As long as the state prevents private frims from selling to enemy nations, there's no harm in privatising the defence sector



Well...on expected lines. Do you know the full form of DRDO? Research and development....yes this is done if you have previos industrial capability. You just can not imitate the LM, Boeing, that bus is long missed, you need strong state intervention to catch the bus then the final product, if succesful, private firms can step in and take over.

Just imagine any private company developing ARJUN for 30 years with their own money and their users are not satisfied with end product....!!!


----------



## su-47

Titanium said:


> Well...on expected lines. Do you know the full form of DRDO? Research and development....yes this is done if you have previos industrial capability. You just can not imitate the LM, Boeing, that bus is long missed, you need strong state intervention to catch the bus then the final product, if succesful, private firms can step in and take over.
> 
> Just imagine any private company developing ARJUN for 30 years with their own money and their users are not satisfied with end product....!!!



I agree, that its late. But its not too late. Companies like Tata, Reliance, Infosys etc have the capability to enter the defence market. They might not be able to produce a complete system (like a tank or aircraft) on their own, but they can produce subsystems. This will provide healthy competition to DRDO and take pressure off DRDO, since they wont hav to do everything on their own. 

Once private frims enter the defence sector, DRDO will naturally improve due to competition, even if DRDO is not privatised. Once DRDO improves a bit, private companies will be willing to take over DRDO


----------



## Titanium

su-47 said:


> I agree, that its late. But its not too late. Companies like Tata, Reliance, Infosys etc have the capability to enter the defence market. They might not be able to produce a complete system (like a tank or aircraft) on their own, but they can produce subsystems. This will provide healthy competition to DRDO and take pressure off DRDO, since they wont hav to do everything on their own.


 Tata, Reliance and Infosys... the leading lights of private enterprise capable of R&D? Could you point me a single engineering innovation from any of the three companies. 
Tata marketing brand at its best
Reliance ... at best a good manager and the worst example of political and buracraccy criminal nexus 
Infosys... a glorified labourer supplier and sweat shop.



> Once private frims enter the defence sector, DRDO will naturally improve due to competition, even if DRDO is not privatised. *Once DRDO improves a bit, private companies will be willing to take over DRDO*



What can I comment on this..... shows your mental makeup.


----------



## su-47

Titanium said:


> Tata, Reliance and Infosys... the leading lights of private enterprise capable of R&D? Could you point me a single engineering innovation from any of the three companies.
> Tata marketing brand at its best
> Reliance ... at best a good manager and the worst example of political and buracraccy criminal nexus
> Infosys... a glorified labourer supplier and sweat shop.



They might not be engineering innovators, but these are companies who have rose, not only in India but in the global market, thanks to their efficiency. They are capable of restructuring DRDO (if they take over DRDO). If they start their own defence companies, they are capable hiring top of the line scientists and paying them well. 



Titanium said:


> What can I comment on this..... shows your mental makeup.



And whats that supposed to mean? I dont find anything wrong with the statement. You are talking as if private companies will never take over DRDO


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> I asked for reporters, who have reported on defence matters honestly according to you people. I know every one listed above is considered idiot/lifafa what not by you people, coz they ask *probing question* and bring the worshipping diety of DRDO down.
> 
> But where is the list of knwledgeable, honest reporters.



Probing question? yeah right like what? Why Prithvi is not a PGM or why Torsion bar on Arjun is leaking?


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> Probing question? yeah right like what? Why Prithvi is not a PGM or why Torsion bar on Arjun is leaking?



Beating behind bushes? So no one defence reporter measure up, what a pity! All the indian reporters are bafoons and idiots....hun


----------



## zeus

Titanium said:


> I asked for reporters, who have reported on defence matters honestly according to you people. I know every one listed above is considered idiot/lifafa what not by you people, coz they ask probing question and bring the worshipping diety of DRDO down.
> 
> But where is the list of knwledgeable, honest reporters.



we have great guys like 

1) Siva Govindasamy 
2 ) T.R. Ramachandran
3 ) vikramjit sing chopra
4) Jyotirmoy chaudhuri
5 ) Pushpindar singh

i bet you have never heard them ,we have some good reporters and some mirch masala bollywood type of writers who have only one aim of sensationalizing a issue ,people like me follow this writers and people like you like reading what this lifafa writers have to write , thats the difference


----------



## zeus

Titanium said:


> Tata, Reliance and Infosys... the leading lights of private enterprise capable of R&D? Could you point me a single engineering innovation from any of the three companies.
> Tata marketing brand at its best
> Reliance ... at best a good manager and the worst example of political and buracraccy criminal nexus
> Infosys... a glorified labourer supplier and sweat shop.
> 
> 
> What can I comment on this..... shows your mental makeup.




why not ???

Tata have been building trucks and heavy vehicles all their life ,they even supply Armour ed Trucks to Indian army then if given a Task why cannot built some armored vehicles and bullet proof vehicles for the Armed forces ??

Infosys are one of leading software giant in world and future war will be fought with high tech weaponry they can sure write programs and softwares for aircrafts and secure communications 

Larsen & Turbo (PVT company) have already helped in construction of Naval Ships and Missiles launcher and already have shown interest in ship building and subs for indian navy in future 

Reliance does seemed to have shown any interest in defence unless they want to provide secure communications systems to the armed forces


----------



## zeus

TATA Motors To Step Into Armoured Vehicles Production

Poised to storm the passenger car segment with its Rs 1-lakh people's car, Tata Motors is readying for more muscular offerings. The company has started a programme for the production of armoured vehicles for Indian and global military markets.

Based on its existing truck and utility vehicle platforms, Tata Motors aims to produce armoured vehicles for troops and personnel transportation. As in any defence production, Tata Motors, too, is keeping the programme under wraps, including numbers and investments.

But, sources say that, as an existing supplier of trucks for the military, Tata Motors' entry into the armoured vehicle segment was a logical move to be part of the Indian government's efforts to broadbase defence procurement from the private sector as also tap the burgeoning demand internationally.

A Tata Motor spokesperson said that a commercial programme for armoured vehicles had been initiated, but it was too premature to disclose the specifics.

Though it could not be confirmed, industry sources indicated that Tata Motors could be working with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), since future supplies will, in any case, have to be certified by DRDO before firm orders are executed.

Significantly, the DRDO which, till now, only funded public sector enterprise for R&D for defence production, has relaxed norms by setting aside a corpus to fund the private sector as well.

Tata Motors sources said that while significant in-house research has already been done on the armoured vehicle technology, the company&#65533;s existing and future truck platforms would be the framework for entering the defence market.

It is likely that the Novus truck, developed by Tata Motors&#65533; Korean acquisition &#65533; Tata Daewoo Commercial Vehicle Limited (TDCV) &#65533; will be developed as an armoured troop carrier. Tata Motors and TDVC are also jointly collaborating to unveil a &#65533;global truck&#65533; in 2008, which, too, could be extended for the production of armoured vehicles.

Automobile industry sources said that the Tata Motors initiative to extend its presence in military supplies should be viewed against the backdrop of the Indian government&#65533;s recent policy initiatives to increase defence procurement from the private sector.

While the shopping bill of the Indian armed forces in 2007-12 is estimated at $100 billion, the government has even allowed 26&#37; foreign direct investment (FDI) in joint ventures for defence production.

Recently, Union defence minister A K Antony urged the Indian private sector to take advantage of the &#65533;30% offset clause&#65533;, under which any foreign vendor will have to invest 30% of order value for the co-production or purchase agreement with an Indian defence producer.


Pinaka have taken a lot of contribution from the private sector. Larsen and Toubro (L&T) ltd. claim credit for building the 2-axis DC servo drive for the Pinaka while TATA Advanced Materials Ltd. (TAML) have developed launcher tubes and containers for the rockets and missiles. TATA Power's Strategic Electronics Division (SED) also developed the prototype Pinaka launcher which underwent extensive user field trials.







full size mockup of the WM-18 Naval Rocket Launcher, built by L&T. This weapon system is for use aboard Landing Ship Tank (LST) warships to facilitate beach clearing operations. The whole system comprises of port and starboard launchers capable of firing 18 rockets in single launch or salvo mode. The electro-hydraulically operated launchers are slaved to a Director designation sight and controlled from a remote console. A two axis servo stabilized system compensates for ship roll and pitch motion


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Beating behind bushes? So no one defence reporter measure up, what a pity! All the indian reporters are bafoons and idiots....hun



There are better writers,but then I dont think it is even worth pointing you to those writers and their reports. I suggest you better stick with the reports brought out by these bafoons and idiots.

If you start reading good reports,how are you gonna put stupid smiles or make nonsense comments within your posts. If you start posting knowledgeable posts,we will all miss the entertainment which you currently provide.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> There are better writers,but then I dont think it is even worth pointing you to those writers and their reports. I suggest you better stick with the reports brought out by these bafoons and idiots.
> .




Seems to the point...Indian reporters..


----------



## Titanium

*"Don't sell us trash"*

*The Indian Air Force says that it is being forced to accept sub-standard equipment that will hamper its fighting capabilities. The Air Force has accused Bharat Electronics Limited - a Defence Ministry owned unit of trying to sell it sub-standard electronic warfare equipment.*


The Air Force says equipment proposed by BEL does not meet its requirements but it is being forced to accept it in the name of indigenous development. 


BEL is pushing to supply the Air Force two critical systems: a ground based mobile electronic intelligence gathering system and the communication cum electronic counter measures system. These systems are crucial for the Air Force's fighting capabilities. 


_When BEL did not come up to the mark, the Air Force looked at buying similar equipment from Israel and Spain but that didnt work out. Now the BEL says it can make the same equipment with foreign help and is trying to force the Air Force to buy these weapon systems. _


*TIMES NOW has a copy of a hard-hitting letter written by the man in charge of acquisitions in the Air Force, Air Marshall Mak Browne*. 


Air Marshall NAK Browne has written a strong letter to the BEL chairman, Mr VVR Shastri, accusing him of coming in the way of providing good firepower to the Air Force. 


Air Marshal Browne says, ...such badgering is "in fructuous" and they "serve no purpose except to vitiate the environment and retard the procurement process thus delaying the acquisitions which would have provided better operational capability.



Defence Ministry reacted to these reports, Ministry official, KP Singh said, There is always a tussle between a producer and a user. If BEL wouldnt have been producing them we would have always bought the equipment from abroad. *These are complicated systems and I am sure BEL is trying to improve their system, give them some time to improve their system*

Well well ...seems all the wrong news is coming at rights time in the face of apologists.. I don't know what excuse these apologist have for the Air Marshal....Lifafa anyone?


----------



## su-47

Indian indegenous defence industry is not 100&#37; ready yet. what we need to do is do more JVs with israel and russia, get the bases of the technology, and then produce indegenous equipment.


----------



## Titanium

There is a saying " one who learns from own mistake is intelligent, the one who learns from others mistake is Wise"

Take your meaning...


----------



## Titanium

IT IS NOT EVEN FUNNY NOW, THE HORRIBLE SHOW CONTINUES

The Hindu : National : Panel finalises partner for co-developing Kaveri engine
BANGALORE: After a two-year exercise, the K.V.L. Rao Technical Evaluation Committee (TEC) that was constituted to decide who should join the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in co-developing the indigenously Kaveri combat aircraft engine, has finally made up its mind. The co-developed Kaveri engine is expected to power the indigenously designed Light Combat Aircraft Tejas.

But the TECs decision could turn superfluous since the end user of the Kaveri engine, the Indian Air Force (IAF), has indicated that the parameters specified by the GTRE in the request for proposal (RFPs) sent out to two global engine houses were not synchronous with Air Staff Requirements (ASRs). The users stand is that an engine co-developed with these parameters and engine specifications (especially thrust) is not acceptable since there will be serious shortfalls in performance and operational viability.

*The IAFs stand indicates that it will like the GTRE to go in for a fresh RFP, factor in problems such as the near two-tonne increase in the Tejas weight, incorporate specifications that are in tune with ASRs (including choosing the right thrust), *invite afresh global engine houses and then choose a partner, who will help develop an indigenous engine. Even while admitting that sending a new RFP would further delay the choosing of a partner, sources said that a *small delay was preferable *to the long term effects of the IAF flying an aircraft with an under powered engine.

*The GTRE, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory that since 1987 has been trying in vain to develop a combat engine (Kaveri), threw up their hands in 2005 and put out an RFP calling for help.* But with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which will manufacture the Kaveri expressing a desire to have issues that would come up during the production phase addressed, the RFP had to be re-tendered.


_Sources also told The Hindu that the stalemate over the Kaveri stemmed from the fact that the user (IAF) was not a part of the committee that finalised the RFP. _

*Summary:* the LCA aka Last Chance Aircraft also known as Light combat aircraft Alias "Indigenous aircraft" urf 40% composite by weight and 90% by surface area aircraft in other word indigenous FCS aircraft has officially gone overweight by TWO tons. and yeah this calls for a small delay of few years.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> *Summary:* the LCA aka Last Chance Aircraft also known as Light combat aircraft Alias "Indigenous aircraft" urf 40&#37; composite by weight and 90% by surface area aircraft in other word indigenous FCS aircraft has officially gone overweight by TWO tons. and yeah this calls for a small delay of few years.



Yes Mr.Expert . When you add weapons on the aircraft it will increase the overall weight of the aircraft.More than 2 tonnes.
Unless you expect fighter to fly without the weapons!


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> Yes Mr.Expert . When you add weapons on the aircraft it will increase the overall weight of the aircraft.More than 2 tonnes.
> Unless you expect fighter to fly without the weapons!



Oh I did not Knew that! or for the matter of fact, the so-called designers also did not thought that weapons will be added.. 

Poor fellow they should have thought about the weapons during the design stage ..no? Now they are finding the thrust is inadequate when you add weapons..........


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Oh I did not Knew that! or for the matter of fact, the so-called designers also did not thought that weapons will be added..
> 
> Poor fellow they should have thought about the weapons during the design stage ..no? Now they are finding the thrust is inadequate when you add weapons..........



Really.. and who said the thrust is not enough? What makes you think that what the reporter says is all true? Let's talk when IAF officially asks for a higher thrust than GE-IN 404 20 engine. Till then I can show you reports about USAF asking Star treck engine to power their F-22.

Google and find the thrust rating of GE 404 engine and calculate how much should the thrust of engine required if the reporter's dream(additional 33&#37; thrust corresponding to so called 2 tonne weight) is to implemented.
And yes find out how many engines are there of the size of GE 404 which has such a thrust.

All your jumping will stop,once your come to know how easily you believe b***s*** that comes out in media.


----------



## BATMAN

su-47 said:


> Indian indegenous defence industry is not 100% ready yet. what we need to do is do more JVs with israel and russia, get the bases of the technology, and then produce indegenous equipment.



What do you mean by more JV. I have already proved that LCA comprised 70% foreign parts and you want to have more is this what you mean and yet continue to term it indeginous?

Now, when ever I read this word 'Indeginous' It make me laugh.

Let's assume one day you really managed to produce indeginous (literary)product, that day it will be really hard for you guys to prove it as 'indeginous' 
What is the harm if your press just write it as Indian. I always wondered, what the hell this word 'idegenous' hold for Indians?
In my phsycology, what matters is success, which DRDO have not acomplished, yet in average development time, which makes it below average and is not a matter of pride.


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> Really.. and who said the thrust is not enough? What makes you think that what the reporter says is all true? Let's talk when IAF officially asks for a higher thrust than GE-IN 404 20 engine.



Don't get worked up......I know LCA has now become the raw nerve for you guys. I understand that, next time when reports of this sort appear I will cross check with you!...Happy

Bythe way the 2 ton weight increase is not Weapon weight but Empty weight......Oh don't start 45&#37; composite by weight and 90% surface...I know it......but still they ingenously successfully able to increase the weight by 2 tons!!

The unwillingness of acknowledging the problems in LCA among some?... nay all of you is now legendary. I will assure you, that you are not the first one to condemn the messenger.............. there are many before you have done that.

Just wait and watch unfurling of the saga.........of LCA!!!


----------



## zeus

one more mirch masala article by ravi sharma without much to support while Tejas quietly makes another milestone by integrating a Litening Pod ,while Titanium will be more then happy to hear that while whole worlds knows what Rafael's Litening targeting pods are Indian media seems to term it 'Listening Pod'
and if you are cleaver which you claim to be  then you will be able to identify the aircraft which is termed LCA-Tejas by Times of india ,and guess they write about it every day but still don't know how it even looks



here is the original picture of tejas with Litening targeting pod under her belly


----------



## Titanium

I wonder why the great DRDO not released pic of LCA with Isreali Litening pod????

I do remember they releasing pic as well as video of firing of unguided Russian Missile???? If firing blind missile is necessary what happened to Astra BVR


----------



## zeus

Astra BVR will be tested by Sukhoi 30 mki by next year and IAF as already dedicated a mki for the project and the picture was released DRDO


----------



## ak56

When is the LCA likely to be inducted? Does it match JF-17 technically?


----------



## EagleEyes

ak56 said:


> When is the LCA likely to be inducted? Does it match JF-17 technically?



Yes, it does. However, if it is going to be in IAF still haven't been decided because it doesn't meet the standards.


----------



## Joodi

Come on guys we are sick of hearing such news regarding. I can bet on it, we still have to wait atleast 7- 8 years before LCA will be inducted in IAF.
and the reasons are known to every one , this is yet another HAL propoganda stuff made on regular basis.


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> Come on guys we are sick of hearing such news regarding. I can bet on it, we still have to wait atleast 7- 8 years before LCA will be inducted in IAF.




May be you aren't sick of hearing such news regarding LCA, since you are deceased with self-imposed unaccepatibility associated with LCA.




Joodi said:


> and the reasons are known to every one , this is yet another HAL propoganda stuff made on regular basis.




Is it propoganda stuff made on regular basis? Pls be descriptive what are those propoganda stuff made on reguler basis? 
Could you give me some insight in your mind which is still seems to have prevaling in impulsive way of thinking?


----------



## Titanium

The Hindu Business Line : LCA getting ready by the year-end

Goody good news for the naysayers--Next year see you.

The design and production of light combat aircraft *(LCA) Tejas series  the light weight multi-role supersonic aircraft  is likely to be completed by the end of the year,* according to Mr P. Ramachandra, the Deputy Project Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

Mr Ramachandra, who was here to participate in the Indian Science Congress, said on Monday that the initial operational clearance for the LCA series would be obtained by 2010 and the final one by 2012. At present, laser designate part (lightning) is getting integrated and tested after successful test firing of air-to-air close combat missile R-73 from Tejas.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

But which Year?


----------



## Titanium

Next year. If you ask me again in which ever AD, I will stand by my word.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Titanium said:


> Next year. If you ask me again in which ever AD, I will stand by my word.



I think its been 5 years since they have been reporting like this that at *the end of the year *it will be ready!


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> I think its been 5 years since they have been reporting like this that at *the end of the year *it will be ready!



Rather then pin-pointing the errors of Journalists, you should understand the essense of those reports and take a look at your comprehension problem seriously. Reporting of journalist on LCA in last five years mainly focused on each and every segments of LCA development like PV-2, LSP, Drop Tanks, R-73 test firings rather then your understanding of quoting these reports of journalist and conclude that LCA as oprationalize by the next year, and then talk about "I think its been 5 years since they have been reporting like this that at the end of the year" .


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

*Do you work in DRDO or its just natural to defend the wrongs of a white elephant in Indian Military Research and Developement!*


----------



## Astra

Good to see many pessimestic guys, showing infentile happiness about the LCA program. The thing they fail to realize is that India is the only developing country that has taken the efforts to indigeneously develop a fighter aircraft. The result of indigenours efforts have been seen in Akash, Dhruv, Prithvi, Agni.


----------



## EagleEyes

India has done a great job with Akash, Dhruv, Prithvi, and Agni.


----------



## Contrarian

Astra said:


> Good to see many pessimestic guys, showing infentile happiness about the LCA program. The thing they fail to realize is that India is the only developing country that has taken the efforts to indigeneously develop a fighter aircraft. The result of indigenours efforts have been seen in Akash, Dhruv, Prithvi, Agni.



There are a number of things left out, from sonars, Rajendra radars, 3D CARS, Nag, AAD, etc, etc.

All these things take effort and resources, and they tend to be delayed many tiems,even fail but there are always spin offs and benefits that cannot be accrued from buying. 

This is what China is also trying to do, achieve self reliance...Yet people, mostly Pakistani's never fail to criticize how the platform is delayed etc, etc. The most important thing is that it is there, and there is a lot to be gained from going it alone rather than buying. Even JV's are useless unless there is a critical mass in knowledge, experience and industry capacity to make use of the JV, otherwise it just ends up being ToT in another form.

People here have NO IDEA how much the development of LCA has helped the Indian Aviation industry..!


----------



## Titanium

malaymishra123 said:


> People here have NO IDEA how much the development of LCA has helped the Indian Aviation industry..!




Care to enlighten the "people" here, According to "people"

LCA is based on P.106 BAE studies, So India still does not have design experiance. To finalise the design on the P.106, again Dassualt was roped in, so there goes another point. If you talk about wind tunnel sweat, you can do that to all the available aircraft of the world, *to study*.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *Do you work in DRDO or its just natural to defend the wrongs of a white elephant in Indian Military Research and Developement!*



I don't mind anything about your accusation as it is your Sheer uniqeness, which spokes a volume as you can't even troll properly.

Before comprehending my naturelness of my attitude, atleast be correct in accusing me of defending DRDO, Where did I quoted DRDO with LCA? afterall LCA is a product of ADA and HAL. 

Atleast we have something to critisize as a White Elephant, but you don't even have that distinction in your background, you ask why? because you have yet to see such generation of Organisations in your own backyard.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> I don't mind anything about your accusation as it is your Sheer uniqeness, which spokes a volume as you can't even troll properly.
> 
> Before comprehending my naturelness of my attitude, atleast be correct in accusing me of defending DRDO, Where did I quoted DRDO with LCA? afterall LCA is a product of ADA and HAL.
> 
> Atleast we have something to critisize as a White Elephant, but you don't even have that distinction in your background, you ask why? because you have yet to see such generation of Organisations in your own backyard.



Thats.........


----------



## KENT

Titanium said:


> Care to enlighten the "people" here, According to "people"





Before suggesting all other people for enlighting, you should yourself express some courtesy of giving insight in your reasoning. 





Titanium said:


> LCA is based on P.106 BAE studies, So India still does not have design experiance. To finalise the design on the P.106, again Dassualt was roped in, so there goes another point. If you talk about wind tunnel sweat, you can do that to all the available aircraft of the world, *to study*.




So resemblance of P.106 BAE studies with LCA design or whatever your spontenous comparison of P.106 and LCA translates you India does'nt have design experience. So Professor, tell me How did you manage to uncover such unexpectional discovery?, Why don't you inform journalist from your country to publish such infatile discovery as a Breaking news? Before fuming such redicule you should back it up with some creadible sources.

As India was naive in combact aircraft design and hence getting some assistance from Dassualt as consultant on LCA design wasn't so aweful as compared to what you are trying to create the picture of dreadfulness in over here in taking assistance about LCA.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Thats.........



and that's your natural astuteness when your get exhusted with arguement.


----------



## Joodi

LCA = late coming aircraft. LCA has been in making since last 24 years how many more years do we have to wait, my godness 24 years, HAL guys plz hurry up,


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> LCA = late coming aircraft. LCA has been in making since last 24 years how many more years do we have to wait, my godness 24 years, HAL guys plz hurry up,



Don't let your emotion come to fore.


----------



## Joodi

dears indians when i say "late coming aircraft" i don't wanna say LCA is impotent aircraft or JF-17 is better , see the below data urself and judge urself, both aircrafts are very much comparable. 


SPECIFICATION (JF-17 Thunder)

Type: Multirole Fighter 
Plan induction 150 confirmed (250 likely)	
Production status: 4 delevered to PAF	
Empty weight: 6,320kg 
Fuel capacity: 2,300kg (5175 lb)
Max take-off: 12,700kg
Max. speed: Mach 1.8, at high altitude	
Combat range: 1355 km 
ferry range: 3000 km 
Service ceiling: 16,700 m, 
G-limit: +8.5 
Thrust/Wt Ratio	0.96 
Wing loading: 270 kg/m² 
Engine: 1× RD-93 turbofan, Russian 
1 x WS-13, Chinese (future option)	

Thrust: RD-93: 49.4kN dry/81.4kN	
WS-13: 56.75kN dry/ 86.37kN 

Max. Pay load: 3800 kg 
Storage points: 7 hard points, 
Cannon: 23mm double barrel canon 
BVR-AAM:	Chinese: SD-10, (range 70 km)	
Non- chinese:
R-Darter, AIM-120C, AIM-7F 

Weapons: WVR-AAM: Chinese: PL-8, PL-9	
Non-Chinese: AIM-9P, A-darter, 
AIM-9L/M Sidewinder, 

Air to surface munitions:	
Pakistani: H-2 glide bomb (60 km) 
- H-4 powered glide bomb (120 km)
- Ra'ad cruise mssile (350 km)
- HAFR-2 Anti-Runway bomb 

- Anti radiation missiles 
- Laser guided weapons 
- Programmable delays cluster bombs 
- Runway penetration bombs 
- General purpose bombs 
- Training bombs 

Anti-ship missile: 
Non chinese: AM-39 Exocet, harpoon 
Chinese: C-101, FL-7 

Unit cost	15 million $US 
Fatigue life	25 yrs, 4000 fly. Hrs.



SPECIFICATIONS (LCA Tejas):

Type: Multirole fighter
Plan induction 220 IAF & 40 indian navy
Production status:	in development phase
Empty weight: 5,500 kg
Fuel capacity: 
Max take-off: 
Max. speed:	Mach 1.8, at high altitude
Combat range:	850 km
ferry range: 2000 km
Service ceiling:	15200m
G-limit: +9, till now only 5G achieved
Thrust/Wt Ratio:	1.07
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m²
Engine: 1× GE F404 turbofan or
1× GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan

Thrust: GE F404: dry/83.2kN 
Kaveri: 52.0kN dry/81.0kN 

Max. Pay load:	4000kg
Storage points:	8 hard points
Cannon:	23mm double barrel canon 

BVR-AAM:	not known
Weapons: WVR-AAM: 
R-77, R-73


Air to surface munitions:	
- anti-ship missiles
- laser-guided bombs
- unguided bombs
- cluster bombs
- cluster bombs
- Training bombs 

Unit cost: 21-24 million $US
Fatigue life: not known


but my point is, what indian are going to achive in 24+ years pakistanis achieved it in 4 years after the first protoype was flown (with a different approach, instead of indegenization). 
the end products are very much same in terms of comparision.


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> dears indians when i say "late coming aircraft" i don't wanna say LCA is impotent aircraft or JF-17 is better , see the below data urself and judge urself, both aircrafts are very much comparable.



The whole objective of LCA program for India was to set up its own Aviation Industry which will going to augment R & D as well as Manufacturing Infrastcture. 
Whereas Object of JF-17 was to fill up the gap in PAF dwindling aircraft Inventory in terms of Numbers. 





Joodi said:


> but my point is, what indian are going to achive in 24+ years



Name me a single nation which has developed 4th Generation Aircraft in limited span of period?

How many countries in the world can manufacture there Own Fighter Plane?

India has acheived a lot in terms of LCA, let me describe in details Su-30MKI
, IJT,SARAS,Jaguar,Dhurv as well as upgradation of MIg-21,MIG-29,Mig-27,Mirage as well as host of all others Avionics, ECM Suit,MMR,BVR etc. 

This particuler LCA project save our Tens of billions of foreign Exhange. Moreever from hereon we will not have to depends upon Foreign source excessively.






Joodi said:


> pakistanis achieved it in 4 years after the first protoype was flown (with a different approach, instead of indegenization).
> the end products are very much same in terms of comparision.



Pls let me now what was the date when JF-17 project first conceived? as well as what single part of JF-17 was designed by Pakistan?


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Keep designing the LCA within India and ................ 

*Wake up kent!*
*
20 years later ...*

People now have flying Cars .... 

Kent Says,

*LCA has arrived!*


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Keep designing the LCA within India and ................
> 
> *Wake up kent!*
> *
> 20 years later ...*
> 
> People now have flying Cars ....
> 
> Kent Says,
> 
> *LCA has arrived!*



Definetly People have flying cars but rather in video-games,


----------



## Flintlock

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Keep designing the LCA within India and ................
> 
> *Wake up kent!*
> *
> 20 years later ...*
> 
> People now have flying Cars ....
> 
> Kent Says,
> 
> *LCA has arrived!*



LOL....please send me the pictures of Pakistanis going around in flying cars!!


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

*Its 20 years later ...............*

Pakistanis in Flying Cars and .........


*Kent Says ....*


LCA is ready ..


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *Its 20 years later ...............*
> 
> Pakistanis in Flying Cars and .........



Definetly then this pakistani should not be belonging from earth, definetly from all other planet, like you are.




Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *Kent Says ....*
> 
> 
> LCA is ready ..



already One LSP is in service.


----------



## KENT

Stealth Assassin said:


> LOL....please send me the pictures of Pakistanis going around in flying cars!!



There is no need to ask him anything, already his tongue is seems to have gone haywire, it is his usual response when he can't come up with resonable explanation.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Your statements are explanations... For making wrong look right without facts!

     

*You are not funny but .....*


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Your statements are explanations... For making wrong look right without facts!




atleast one can contribute to the discussion by making wrong explantion which is not unwise afterall, but still it can be qualifyable for discussion, rather then your response which spoke very loudly about yourself.




Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *You are not funny but .....*




But what, oh I think you even have run out of words for making anymore trolling.


----------



## ahussains

KENT said:


> atleast one can contribute to the discussion by making wrong explantion which is not unwise afterall, but still it can be qualifyable for discussion, rather then your response which spoke very loudly about yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But what, oh I think you even have run out of words for making anymore trolling.



Kent why there always delays in the Indians Army Airforce and other project.. LIKE LCA ARJUN and SUBMARINES 

and on the other hand if you compare it with us we JF-17 going to be production just in 10 years of research 

AL Khalid more then 350 tanks are produce and they are in serive from last 9 years and the other upgradation in also comming soon the ALKhalid II

Agusta 90B manufactured in Karachi Docks and they are retrofited to the MESA the other two which is improted from France and the one semi assembled in Karachi .. and sooner the U214 or Marlines will be in Karachi docks 

While indians now started to build the scorpions after 6 years and where we in 6 years of time


----------



## KENT

ahussains said:


> Kent why there always delays in the Indians Army Airforce and other project.. LIKE LCA ARJUN and SUBMARINES



History speaks for itself, Delays and Cost overrun are indespensible part of any kind of engineering projects in the world. 

If you are a wise men, then just tell me how many developing countries in the world have been engaged with LCA, Arjun and submarine like projects. This projects are too complex, this milstone cannot be achieved overnight. India wanted to keep pace with growing technological needs and hence it had taken the path filled with numerous barriers.

Hussains just tell me, US having despite decades of experience in weapons building projects, how many years it has taken to builds its F-22. 




ahussains said:


> and on the other hand if you compare it with us we JF-17 going to be production just in 10 years of research



Pls tell me the year during which JF-17 was first conceived. Even if it takes 10 years, then it only because of tonnes of hardship by chinese in aircraft building. During 70's and 80's, chinese were struggling in aircraft building like 
J-8 in terms of cost overrun and delays in a same manner like india struggling now. But all those years of hardworks and dedication of chinese didn't gone waste and hence now they have J-10 and JF-17 as well as host of all other jet trainers project on shedule now. Same thing happening with India now in terms of IJT-36, IJT-36 makes its maiden flight after just two years of reserach and now its testing and induction is way ahead of shedule. 




ahussains said:


> AL Khalid more then 350 tanks are produce and they are in serive from last 9 years and the other upgradation in also comming soon the ALKhalid II



Definetly Pakistan's effort in Al-khalid is fantastic and alluding, but still it is license production of Chinese MBT-2000 alongwith Ukranian input like engine in it. In contrast India started Arjun project from scratch, hence legacy of weapon development speak for itself, Arjun also face same fat as all other weapon projects in the world that is Cost overrun and Delays. India need to do various ractifiction in Arjun from time to time to meet today's technological standard to match with tanks of its Western Counterparts.





ahussains said:


> Agusta 90B manufactured in Karachi Docks and they are retrofited to the MESA the other two which is improted from France and the one semi assembled in Karachi ..



Just tell me how many years it takes pakistan to build Agusta 90bs, that is 11 long years to build just 3 subs. Submarine Buidling was one and only option for PN to create creadible and powerful deterrance against Gigantic IN and hence Pakistan has no other option but opt as priority for Sub Buidling project over Surface Vessel. 



ahussains said:


> and sooner the U214 or Marlines will be in Karachi docks



Just tell me what will be exact date of this construction of this submarine.





ahussains said:


> While indians now started to build the scorpions after 6 years and where we in 6 years of time



Indian doesn't have any kind of experience even in conventional sub buidling then only india took bitter path of buidling Nucler Submarine, even in the past during 80's India had license buid one German Foxtrot class of submarine.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> Indian doesn't have any kind of experience even in conventional sub buidling then only india took bitter path of buidling Nucler Submarine, even in the past during 80's India had license buid one German Foxtrot class of submarine.



*Your facts are bogus ... as your understanding!*

Foxtrot is a Russian Diesel Electric Submarine and not German.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Foxtrot is a Russian Diesel Electric Submarine and not German.



Indeed very horrible mistake from me!


----------



## Neo

PtbP and Kent, get a room or stick to the topic!
Thanks!


----------



## Joodi

Yaar "Kent" come on, be bold enough to face the fact , that LCA is already to late, 

In 1983, the DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft. In 1984, the Aeronautical Development Agency was established to manage the LCA programme. The IAF's Air Staff could not finalised requirement for the LCA until October 1985. This delayed the original schedule which called for first flight in April 1990 and service entry in 1995; 
just see it was 1995 , its now 2008, and still 5 more years more(indian defence ministry them self have said that LCA will get be inducted by 2012 at the earliest).

HAL and ADA try to justify it bcoz they had to justify some way or other. and lets not try to justify this 13 yrs (5 more to come) by the word" indeginization".

even in its present state, most of the major system, are foreign. though many subsystem and components have been develoyed locally but, even today most major system are foreign. i am just listing few if any ask i can write a two dozen other:
1. Engine by General Electric F404-GE-IN20. (KAveri may be ready by 2012 yet another claim by HAL)
2. Multi-function displays function (MFDs) by Sextant (France) & Elbit (Israel), 
3. The helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS) cueing system by (Elbit)
4. the laser pod supplied by (Rafael Israel). 
5. FBW digital control sysytem.by Lockheed Martin.
6. zero-zero ejection seats by Martin Baker (UK) 
7. (Elta radars ) (Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) will provide a radar system for LCA, India's electronics industry has been unable to build a radar system for LCA, recently IAI head visited India & reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system.)

no pakistani ever said JF17 is indeginious product , as i said earleir PAF come up with a different approach , (coproduction and get product as per PAF reqirement) and the end product are very much similar in quality, but in short time in case of JF-17 as compared to LCA.

just compare the two aircraft and judge urself , i posted compelete comparision of two aircrafts in my previous reply.


----------



## Contrarian

Joodi said:


> Yaar "Kent" come on, be bold enough to face the fact , that LCA is already to late,
> 
> In 1983, the DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft. In 1984, the Aeronautical Development Agency was established to manage the LCA programme. The IAF's Air Staff could not finalised requirement for the LCA until October 1985. This delayed the original schedule which called for first flight in April 1990 and service entry in 1995;
> just see it was 1995 , its now 2008, and still 5 more years more(indian defence ministry them self have said that LCA will get be inducted by 2012 at the earliest).
> 
> HAL and ADA try to justify it bcoz they had to justify some way or other. and lets not try to justify this 13 yrs (5 more to come) by the word" indeginization".
> 
> even in its present state, most of the major system, are foreign. though many subsystem and components have been develoyed locally but, even today most major system are foreign. i am just listing few if any ask i can write a two dozen other:
> 1. Engine by General Electric F404-GE-IN20. (KAveri may be ready by 2012 yet another claim by HAL)
> 2. Multi-function displays function (MFDs) by Sextant (France) & Elbit (Israel),
> 3. The helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS) cueing system by (Elbit)
> 4. the laser pod supplied by (Rafael Israel).
> 5. FBW digital control sysytem.by Lockheed Martin.
> 6. zero-zero ejection seats by Martin Baker (UK)
> 7. (Elta radars ) (Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) will provide a radar system for LCA, India's electronics industry has been unable to build a radar system for LCA, recently IAI head visited India & reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system.)
> 
> no pakistani ever said JF17 is indeginious product , as i said earleir PAF come up with a different approach , (coproduction and get product as per PAF reqirement) and the end product are very much similar in quality, but in short time in case of JF-17 as compared to LCA.
> 
> just compare the two aircraft and judge urself , i posted compelete comparision of two aircrafts in my previous reply.


I challenge you to produce proof of the part you mentioned about the MFD's and the FBW control systems. Where did you get the proof for saying that FBW is from LM and MFD's are from sextant.


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> Yaar "Kent" come on, be bold enough to face the fact , that LCA is already to late,



Definetly I should rather face facts, since the person who is suggesting me to face facts who like to twist facts and craft them according to suit his own sensitivity and then come and suggest me to face those twisted facts.

Pls point me out a single sentence from previous posts, where I had claimed that LCA is on schedule, instead I was glorifying the success of LCA project and its associated benefits that have been going through IAF fleet and taking place of magnificent transformation all the way in Indian Aviation Industry.




Joodi said:


> In 1983, the DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft. In 1984, the Aeronautical Development Agency was established to manage the LCA programme. The IAF's Air Staff could not finalised requirement for the LCA until October 1985. This delayed the original schedule which called for first flight in April 1990 and service entry in 1995;



This is an best example of highlighting the those hardcore facts that this person extracted from wikipedia and who is now suggesting me to face it. Joodi, extract about LCA in wikipedia has lots of all other things that glorify its success as projects and associated benefits and milestones. I think you had intentionally missed them to highlight over here, otherwise they could have burst you bubble. 





Joodi said:


> just see it was 1995 , its now 2008, and still 5 more years more(indian defence ministry them self have said that LCA will get be inducted by 2012 at the earliest).




Offcourse, LCA is Indias first effort to build aircraft on its own and hence delay was inevitable. Joodi pls name a single fighter plane project all over the world that wasnt face delays.

Even Aviation giants US, France initiated projects like F-22 and Rafale respectively, still in spite of having decades of experience and booming economy, they could not complete their projects in time.

Newly born kids cant speak in human language or rather learn to walk on its legs instantly, such kids take some years to speak and walk properly, same is with LCA






Joodi said:


> HAL and ADA try to justify it bcoz they had to justify some way or other. and lets not try to justify this 13 yrs (5 more to come) by the word" indeginization".




Which words relating to justification are you trying to put within the mouths of HAL and ADA?

Joodi, Delays and cost overrun are requisite part of every engineering projects and especially those that are initiated from scratch, so HAL and ADA are no exception to it.










Joodi said:


> even in its present state, most of the major system, are foreign. though many subsystem and components have been develoyed locally but, even today most major system are foreign. i am just listing few if any ask i can write a two dozen other:



Courtesy for acknowledging atleast subsystem are locally developed.



Joodi said:


> Engine by General Electric F404-GE-IN20. (KAveri may be ready by 2012 yet another claim by HAL)



Atleast be sincere in accusing the maker of Kaveri.

Kaveri is being made by GTRE, not HAL. HAL will only integrate Kaveri in LCA. Just tell how many countries in the world are versatile in Aircraft engine making?





Joodi said:


> 2. Multi-function displays function (MFDs) by Sextant (France) & Elbit (Israel),



I think you have forget to read about subsequent sentence in wikipedia about LCA. Let me remind you those if you couldnt read as far as your sensitivity is concerned. when the LCA reaches the production stage, the MFDs are expected to be supplied by Indian companies 



Joodi said:


> 3. The helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS) cueing system by (Elbit)
> 4. the laser pod supplied by (Rafael Israel).



Same as my statement of wikipedia when the LCA reaches the production stage, the MFDs are expected to be supplied by Indian companies When MFD can be made locally, then I think HMDS, Cueing system, Laser pod would not be a problem. 



Joodi said:


> 5. FBW digital control sysytem.by Lockheed Martin.



Once again let me remind if you have forget to read in wikipedia,
A second series of inflight simulation tests of the integrated flight control software were conducted on the F-16 VISTA (Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
The NAL's CLAW team eventually managed to successfully complete integration of the flight control laws indigenously, with the FCS software performing flawlessly for over 50 hours of pilot testing on TD-1, resulting in the aircraft being cleared for flight in early 2001.





Joodi said:


> 6. zero-zero ejection seats by Martin Baker (UK)



When you choose to forget so many facts in wikipedia about LCA, so how does ejection seat would be an exception?

Although two-seat variants of the LCA are planned, the examples built to date are crewed by a single pilot on a Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat. The ejection seat is slated to be replaced with an indigenous ejection seat[35] To improve pilot safety during ejection, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, India created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker. This system, which is the first of its kind, can be operated from outside the aircraft, an important consideration when the pilot is trapped or unconscious






Joodi said:


> 7. (Elta radars ) (Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) will provide a radar system for LCA, India's electronics industry has been unable to build a radar system for LCA, recently IAI head visited India & reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system.)



How does it is so convinced for you to describe the inability of Indian electronics industry?

Let me remind you words of wikipedia as far as your sensitivity goes, Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sernsor for the new radar is supposed to be Aesa 2052 and the remaining item and softwares will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products.

As far as role of LCA goes it is point defence fighter, so Indian developed MMR was absolutely compatible with LCA as far as Air to Air preposition goes. But IAF also willing to used it also in Ground strike role as well, and hence problem was arises.




Joodi said:


> no pakistani ever said JF17 is indeginious product



Since nobody has made Pakistani to acknowledge it as indigenous product, just ask your inner instinct, you would definetly get your answer. 



Joodi said:


> , as i said earleir PAF come up with a different approach , (coproduction and get product as per PAF reqirement)




It is an wide spread indisputable truth, I never raise fingered over it




Joodi said:


> and the end product are very much similar in quality, but in short time in case of JF-17 as compared to LCA.



End product are very much similar in quality in terms of what, I mean is it Engine, Radar, Body structure, Bvr, Speed, Ceiling etc.




Joodi said:


> just compare the two aircraft and judge urself , i posted compelete comparision of two aircrafts in my previous reply.




Why I should judge myself? Joodie listen I dont have an exclusivity to judge any aircraft or associated projects.


----------



## khanz

LCA or tejas i guess it's called is a nice looking bird looks like a mirage is it based on that ? incidentally imo even jf-17 looks like a mirage too infact lol both jf-17 and lca they look almost identical to each other from the side and front.
Anyway best of luck with it's development.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Neo said:


> PtbP and Kent, get a room or stick to the topic!
> Thanks!






You are so understanding


----------



## Joodi

KENT here is my reply;

u complaint abt my attitide that i point out only the problematic areas regarding LCa & dont appreciate the acheivements, look man, dont expect me to praise the achievements, u may find thousand of blind advocates and fans of both jf-17 and lCA, i being an engineer is more interested in pointing out the problamatic areas, what is done, done, better concentrate on failures it is the path to success, i dont see LCA project as bias critic, i see LCA as a competition for jf-17, both IAF and PAF are continously coming up with new ideas and concepts abt their product that is very healthy sign.


JF-17 inception: 

as for ur question regarding JF-17 program, that how long did it take, unlike LCA it took less than a decade,(due to difference of approaches for two aircrafts). China and Pakistan signed the agrement for the joint development and production of FC-1, (later named JF-17) in June 1999, the first FC-1 was rolled out on 31 May 2003. It made its first flight on 24 August 2003, and now four JF-17 have already been inducted in PAF. 15-20 to will be inducted this year along with serial production from KAMRA this yr.


*Isreali ELTA Radar:*
dude that wasn't my statement, I myself didn't said that indian organization were incapable to come up with local MMR for LCA. This was stated by indian Defence Minister Shri AK Antony himself in a written reply in Lok Sabha refering to a question that why there has already been a delay in developing Multi-Mode Radar for LCA by 12 years (atleast 5 more to come). 

The project for development of (MMR) was started in June 1991 with Probable Date of Completion of 6½ years. There has been a tremendous time delay and cost overrun in the said project. Now Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI), which has experience in developing similar types of radars will provide a radar system for LCA, recently IAI head visited India & reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system for Limited Series Production and Series Production. U know local MMR program failed (dont mention those partial successes), i m not interested in pointing fingers at any one's capabilities but it happens automatically after failure. 

you says "there was problem with air to ground mode": hahah, yaar KENT, LCA is a multirole aircraft, and its MMR is supposed to work in all modes (air to air , air to ground , air to sea). plz dont advocate blindly, its doesnt help, failure, means failure: reasons behind the failure is a different matter.


Regarding MFDs: 

As for the multi function display u says local "When the LCA reaches production stage, local MFDs are expected to be fitted," first of all LCA in production stage, it means 5 more yrs to come, even defence minitry says if every thing goes right Tejas will enter service in 2012 at the ealiest.(yet another very very doubt full claim, keeping in view the past track record of tall claims), further more it is said that local MFDs are "EXPECTED", MY GOODNESS AGAIN JUST EXPECTATION.

AND dear dont talk with if and but and in future tense, its better if we stay stick to what has been achieved in LCA project till now, and the truth is that up till now it is foreign MFDs.


Regarding KAVERI:

Oh bhai, I Know it is "GTRE" who is supposed to do the KAVERI work, dont expect me to name subdivisions and organizations every time, it is basicaly the HAL and ADA , but as the saying "failures & misdeeds of children brings a bad name to their parents (HAL)."
KAVERI even after 23 years(atleast 5 more to come, i doubt this claim also) is not ready, and u know its true yaar. and now GTRE has even asked for foreign assistance and help to over come the short comings. kaveri is not ready and from 1983 to up till now it is the general electric who engines are providing the power.

*Cost escalation & Delays:*

yah u are right cost increase and delays are normal with any project,
but dude that is no ordinary delay and cost escalation, more than a decade and half long delay and giantic cost escalation.and HAL guys are justifying it in the name of indeginization.

Project objective, Project Cost, In time delivery of project, Quality and experienced/skill gained are the basis aspects related to any engineering project.if u discuss with me good spirit i tell you how this project has failed miserably in meeting the first five basic objectives except the experience/skilled gained which is the only point achieved along with partial achievement of irst aspect. i will sum time discuss each and every aspect of these project separately.

this is the main problem with HAL and ADA, they make tall claims. Some body should tell them "action speek louder than words". HAL , ADA and GTRE at the end of every yr issues a new year message to their nation that by next year LCA will be ready for induction, and Re-issues the same press release again by changing date as the new year arrives. its annoying we are hearing such dead lines more than a decade yaar.


*LCA/JF-17 comparision:*

u ask me which way LCA and Jf-17 are very much comparable, yaar go check my detail analysis on back pages. when i say they are similar i mean technically in most of their aspect (they are one on one), i dont get bias either it is LCA or JF-17, i judge each aircraft for its merits and demerits, bcoz at the end of day, in a dog fight or combat these machines have perform on its technical grounds not on the basis of their association with india or pakistan.

for summary in two lines:

JF-17 is winner in terms of service ceiling, ferry range, combat range, wings loading, production status, unit cost, fatigue life.

LCA is a winner in light weight, payload, TWR, G limit. 

Both are similar in terms of speed, engine thrust, BVR capability,FBW capability, weapon suit.


and plz stop rasiing this question again and again that how many countries can make aircrafts, i can list two dozen countries with their product, dont put such excuses, if only 7-8 countries can be nuclear power out of which two are india and pakistan then y not an aircraft, which is technically of no comparision with a nuclear bomb and it facilites. (i can write this with surity bcoz.i myself is an engineer with specilization in the field of nuclear, working in a nuclear facility)


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> KENT here is my reply;
> 
> u complaint abt my attitide that i point out only the problematic areas regarding LCa



Really, Did you really thrown spotlight over problems of LCA? Ask me, Instead you were emphasizing your focus on proportion of Foreign Subsystem in LCA, which I had pointed quite systematically and on top of that I was very quick in acquainting from which source i.e. wikipedia you are basing your premise about LCA .

Problematic areas of LCA, offcourse they are widely known facts, nobody is contesting those problem including me or rather DRDO, HAL, ADA, but rather you should get it clear from yourself, Are you really pointing out problem behind the LCA?

Regarding you accusation of me for raising fingere over your Attitude. How can I complain about your attitude, without knowing your Motives? Instead I raised my fingures over your intention of assessing LCA. 



Joodi said:


> & dont appreciate the acheivements, look man, dont expect me to praise the achievements,



Nobody on earth expect you to praise the LCA achievements, when person who is outright in claiming LCA projects as failure on the premise that, LCA contain fraction of Foreign subsystem and it is delayed and hence it is a failure. 




Joodi said:


> u may find thousand of blind advocates and fans of both jf-17 and lCA,



Have you included yourself in it?





Joodi said:


> i being an engineer is more interested in pointing out the problamatic areas,



Are you an aerospace engineer? I think you forget to name your background of engineering.



Joodi said:


> what is done, done, better concentrate on failures it is the path to success,



that is exactly what is being done with LCA projects.




Joodi said:


> i dont see LCA project as bias critic,



But so far you are sounding like a one of those bias critic. But afterall who care about critics of LCA, since words used in those criticism are very cheap and hence anyone can come and show there annoyance with it.



Joodi said:


> i see LCA as a competition for jf-17,



See whatever as you wish in it according to what suits you, but in contrast mainly we see LCA as a cornerstone of Indian aviation industry.




Joodi said:


> both IAF and PAF are continously coming up with new ideas and concepts abt their product that is very healthy sign.



An inherited obligation to match itself with changing modern technological needs.




Joodi said:


> JF-17 inception:
> 
> as for ur question regarding JF-17 program, that how long did it take, unlike LCA it took less than a decade,


 
See, there is no need of admitting this fact, infact I had acknowledged the same, I guess you forget to read it. I suggesting you to go back and read the same.




Joodi said:


> (due to difference of approaches for two aircrafts).



One was envisaged to laid the foundation of aviation industry whereas other was simply conceived to replace aging fleet and export purpose due to cheap price.




Joodi said:


> China and Pakistan signed the agrement for the joint development and production of FC-1, (later named JF-17) in June 1999, the first FC-1 was rolled out on 31 May 2003. It made its first flight on 24 August 2003, and now four JF-17 have already been inducted in PAF. 15-20 to will be inducted this year along with serial production from KAMRA this yr.



An indisputable fact, I never contested it.



Joodi said:


> *Isreali ELTA Radar:*
> dude that wasn't my statement, I myself didn't said that indian organization were incapable to come up with local MMR for LCA.



You raise fingure over the capability of Indian electronics regarding radar and not Indian organization.






Joodi said:


> This was stated by indian Defence Minister Shri AK Antony himself in a written reply in Lok Sabha refering to a question that why there has already been a delay in developing Multi-Mode Radar for LCA by 12 years (atleast 5 more to come).



Link pls for such admission by Indian Defence Minister. Whereas it is widely known fact that MMR is delayed, I never denied it.




Joodi said:


> The project for development of (MMR) was started in June 1991 with Probable Date of Completion of 6½ years. There has been a tremendous time delay and cost overrun in the said project.



Offcourse as I made a statement about inevitability of delays as it is very first attempt and in addition to it radar project was started from scratch.



Joodi said:


> Now Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI), which has experience in developing similar types of radars will provide a radar system for LCA,



Not similar type of radar, in contrast it will be joint venture between IAI and radar manufacurer of India with the sole objective of correcting the errors in MMR. 



Joodi said:


> recently IAI head visited India & reached an agreement with local authorities to develop the system for Limited Series Production and Series Production.



How much recently? Date of the agreement when it was inked?

Name of the local authorities to develop the system?




Joodi said:


> U know local MMR program failed (dont mention those partial successes)



I would call it as partial failure in terms of Air to ground Mode. Regarding the Partial success, you havent even named the firm which made MMR, then only you conclude it MMR was failure.



Joodi said:


> , i m not interested in pointing fingers at any one's capabilities but it happens automatically after failure.



So far you just pointing fingers at one s capabilities without knowing the ground realities. 








Joodi said:


> you says "there was problem with air to ground mode": hahah, yaar KENT, LCA is a multirole aircraft, and its MMR is supposed to work in all modes (air to air , air to ground , air to sea).



Man, I think you have pretty serious comprehension problem indeed. Man go back and read what I had claim when it is used as a point defence fighter then MMR is definetly workable pieace. 



Joodi said:


> plz dont advocate blindly, its doesnt help, failure, means failure: reasons behind the failure is a different matter



Offcourse, it is failure, but partially and not defeated entirely as project.





Joodi said:


> Regarding MFDs:
> As for the multi function display u says local "When the LCA reaches production stage, local MFDs are expected to be fitted," first of all LCA in production stage, it means 5 more yrs to come, even defence minitry says if every thing goes right Tejas will enter service in 2012 at the ealiest.


 
It is doubtful claim, When person like you can based his premise by sourcing data about foreign subsystem like MFD from Wikipedia and then I think there is no problem for me as well asserting Indian MFD to be configured in LCA based in same source of wikipedia.




Joodi said:


> (yet another very very doubt full claim, keeping in view the past track record of tall claims), further more it is said that local MFDs are "EXPECTED", MY GOODNESS AGAIN JUST EXPECTATION.



Offcourse, as I had admitted words and talks are quite cheap, it is usual statement that we have been hearing from each and every criticisizer about LCA. 







Joodi said:


> AND dear dont talk with if and but and in future tense, its better if we stay stick to what has been achieved in LCA project till now, and the truth is that up till now it is foreign MFDs.



Offcourse I think I should have taken the care of future tense, since the claim of local MFD being configured is being made in a past tense.






Joodi said:


> Regarding KAVERI:
> 
> Oh bhai, I Know it is "GTRE" who is supposed to do the KAVERI work, dont expect me to name subdivisions and organizations every time, it is basicaly the HAL and ADA ,



Huh? GTRE is HAL and ADA, Man I think you are out of your own mind, GTRE is an Aerospace Engine Lab of DRDO.





Joodi said:


> but as the saying "failures & misdeeds of children brings a bad name to their parents (HAL)."



As far as engineering projects are concern, this are indispensable inevitabilitys. Those who overruled this chilling truth is completely naïve.




Joodi said:


> KAVERI even after 23 years(atleast 5 more to come, i doubt this claim also) is not ready, and u know its true yaar. and now GTRE has even asked for foreign assistance and help to over come the short comings. kaveri is not ready and from 1983 to up till now it is the general electric who engines are providing the power.




Offcourse, engines are such kind of engineering elements that only few countries in the world has achieved commandibility over it and as far as India is concerned, infact Kaveri was started from scratch.




Joodi said:


> *Cost escalation & Delays:*
> 
> yah u are right cost increase and delays are normal with any project,



Herted courtesy 



Joodi said:


> but dude that is no ordinary delay and cost escalation, more than a decade and half long delay



All those projects are started from scratch and in addition to it with some shoe string budget are always subject to meet with same fat as LCA.



Joodi said:


> and giantic cost escalation.



Gigantic! As far as portfolio of budget goes it is equivalent to shoe string cost escalation.





Joodi said:


> and HAL guys are justifying it in the name of indeginization.



Definetly, as far as value of currency goes in India, it is clearly justifiable and it is unquestionable truth when some sort of the project started without anykind of knowhow of advance technology and unavailability of required infrastructure in the country to gain competence in expertise of building the fighter plane.




Joodi said:


> Project objective, Project Cost, In time delivery of project, Quality and experienced/skill gained are the basis aspects related to any engineering project.



There was a dearth of above skill and associated elements of engineering project in India regarding aerospace segment, when India had conceived the LCA projects and hence it takes time and cost overrun to gain all such proficiency and thats exactly what happened with India.




Joodi said:


> if u discuss with me good spirit i tell you how this project has failed miserably in meeting the first five basic objectives except the experience/skilled gained which is the only point achieved along with partial achievement of irst aspect. i will sum time discuss each and every aspect of these project separately.



I have completely geared up myself to discuss with you those five basic objectives where LCA has failed miserably.



Joodi said:


> this is the main problem with HAL and ADA, they make tall claims.



Kindly describe those tall claims, pls post atleast single press release.



Joodi said:


> Some body should tell them "action speek louder than words".



They are more then mature enough to understand this quotient as far as their status and scale of engineering background and associated milestones are concerned.



Joodi said:


> HAL , ADA and GTRE at the end of every yr issues a new year message to their nation that by next year LCA will be ready for induction, and Re-issues the same press release again by changing date as the new year arrives. its annoying we are hearing such dead lines more than a decade yaar.



What was the last time when they had issued such press release? Pls provide me with the link where you had came across with such claim.




QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
*LCA/JF-17 comparision:*

u ask me which way LCA and Jf-17 are very much comparable, yaar go check my detail analysis on back pages. [/QUOTE]

Those are not analysis, rather they were general specifications and hence specifications alone cant describe anything. 

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
when i say they are similar i mean technically in most of their aspect (they are one on one), [/QUOTE]

How does they are one on one? Have you come across any actual dog-fight including LCA and JF-17?

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
i dont get bias either it is LCA or JF-17, i judge each aircraft for its merits and demerits, bcoz at the end of day, in a dog fight or combat these machines have perform on its technical grounds not on the basis of their association with india or pakistan. [/QUOTE]

After all quite customary way of assessing the both the aircraft.

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
for summary in two lines:

JF-17 is winner in terms of service ceiling, ferry range, combat range, wings loading, production status, unit cost, fatigue life. 
LCA is a winner in light weight, payload, TWR, G limit. 

[/QUOTE]

Has JF-17 achieved IOC?

How did you manage to arrive at unit cost & fatigue life?

LCA has advanced avionics, top class engine, top class range of BVR missiles.

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
and plz stop rasiing this question again and again that how many countries can make aircrafts, [/QUOTE]

Comparison become imperative to justify the magnitude and scale of Fighter plane projects and associated cost and delays.


QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
i can list two dozen countries with their product, [/QUOTE]

List me out a single country which has started the fighter plane project from scratch and achieved desired objective in time and without costoverrun

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
dont put such excuses, [/QUOTE]


Those are not excuse, rather ground reality associated with Fighter plane projects.

QUOTE=Joodi;128338]
if only 7-8 countries can be nuclear power out of which two are india and pakistan then y not an aircraft, which is technically of no comparision with a nuclear bomb and it facilites. (i can write this with surity bcoz.i myself is an engineer with specilization in the field of nuclear, working in a nuclear facility) [/QUOTE] 

Nucler bomb expertise and Aerospace expertise are completely different entities. Both of this entities needed different level of specialization and expertise. Nucler bomb in itself doesnt made it qualified itself as ultimate technological achievement. India and Pakistan opted for nucler bomb only to secure their survival, hegemony and sovereignty.


----------



## khanz

will LCA get israeli avionics ? I heard it will that will be very impressive .


----------



## KENT

khanz said:


> will LCA get israeli avionics ? I heard it will that will be very impressive .



First of all you should not expect any foriegn avionics in LCA, so far all the avionics configured in LCA are of Indian Origin. As per the concept of LCA program to attain self sufficiency in every respect, no matter how foreign avionics would be sexier, then would never gona use in LCA


----------



## Joodi

Dont worry abt my motives dear conecentrate on discussion. and i request dont get personal in discussion.

JF-17 IOC:

ur question regarding JF-17 IOC or FOC, i dont know, i think jf-17 forum is the better forum, they can provide the right answer, i can just tell you that 4 JF-17 are currently operating in PAF and 16 more will be inducted this year inshaAllah with serial production starting this year from PAC KAMRA.

kindly tell me when i have written such an statement that LCA is a failure just bcoz it has foreign elements also. i have never written any such thing. 
I wrote:" Project objective, Project Cost, In time delivery of project, Quality and experienced/skill gained are the basis aspects related to any engineering project, .if u discuss with me in good spirit i tell you how this project has failed miserably in meeting the first five basic objectives except the experience/skilled gained which is the only point achieved along with partial achievement of first aspect".

LCA as a project failed in most basic aspect related to any engineering project, skilled and experienced is the only area of its success. if u have different openion then let me know ur views regarding any specific aspect and i will give my reply. 


One on One.
Yes JF-17 and LCA are one to one, (this is my assessment, u have every right to disagree).Quite frankly I don&#8217;t see a possibility of JF-17 versus LCA dog fight in near future (LCA not ready). when I mean one to one, it is on the basis of available technical data, kindly discuss each aspect separately if u have a different opinion but purely on technical ground. 
Plz put a side any romanticism abt the aircraft and analyze them purely as a machine. 

MMR failure:

what is wrong with u man, just read ur comments "when it is used as a point defence fighter, then MMR is a definately a workable piece", come on dude, there wer serious problems even with the air to air mode that was made locally, Even HAL and ADA have never been able to make such an overambitious claim regarding local MMR, ur statement of workable piece is totally baseless and nonfactual.

first of all LCA is designed as a multirole aircraft not as a point defence fighter, secondly it is MMR, i repeat multi mode radar not a sigle mode radar so either stop calling it a multi mode radar and call it a single mode radar or accept the truth of failure of local MMR. 

u are claiming MMR a definate workable piece, then kindly tell me on what basis, dont make such baseless tall claims, local MMR program was a complete failure, not a partial failure as u said. and now isrealis have been called in for help and assistance and do the job what havent been done even after 18 yrs. face the hard core facts.


LCA Superiority Hypothesis:

u says " advanced avionics, topclass engine, top class BVR missile" "topclass" yaar atleast use mature words.

Dude would u kindly share with me the basis of such conclusive (yet very hypothetical) statement regarding LCA engine, BVR capability and avionics/radar superiority over JF-17. 

Ur whole hypothesis is totally baseless, based on tall claims. Non of the fact supports ur statement, no data, no reference material.

How can u say that engine in LCA is powerful than the Russian RD-93 in JF-17, go and check the details of both engines and rectify ur false statement urself. (kaveri is not ready so it can not to taken in for comparision with already installed russian Rd-93)

LCA has no avionics superiority over JF-17, avionics is a very detailed topic, i can discuss separately if u wish, and wipe out any such superiority complex. 

As for ur "topclass BVR capability" my dear neither the MMR nor the BVR-AAM is ready for LCA, MMR is underdevelopment with the isreali help and assistance, how can any one even talk abt superior BVR capability when radar is still in development phase and BVR-AAM is not even finalized for the LCA either by HAL or IAF. 

A final decision is yet to be taken abt what BVR-AAM, LCA gone use, will it be any russian BVR , western BVR or the local BVR ASTRA.

Not a single test has been conducted in this respect. Last october LCA gone through its first ever weapon test in last 25 years, and that also not for BVR-AAM, it was of a Russian within visual range (WVR-AAM) R-73. Even the test regarding WVR-AAM were not final, it was only for the firing test of R-73 and not an accuracy test, there being no target.

the main objectives of that test firing were: 
&#8226; Safe separation of the missile from the parent aircraft. 
&#8226; Effect of missile plume on engine air-intake 
&#8226; Functionality of store management system (SMS) including safety interlocks 
&#8226; Effect of missile plume on composites structures 
&#8226; Handling quality assessment during missile launch

After the test firing Mr. PS Subramanyam, director of the LCA programme said that:

&#8220;Our next goal is target acquisition and fire control, which will take off only after a multimode radar (MMR) is fitted on the Tejas, which is under developed with Israeli help, and is likely to be fitted onto the Tejas.

dear integration of BVR capability is no joke, and it becomes a far cry when the MMR it self is not ready. and BVR-AAM is not finally selected. 

So first build a fully funcational MMR for LCA with all necessary modes (with isreali help and assistance), then finalize the BVR-AAM for it and then integrate them to achieve the objective. We will discuss the BVR capability issue later when it is made available on LCA, better achieve success in integrating WVR-AAM completely first and then think abt BVR issue.

ur stated areas of LCA superiority are following facing these problems at the moment;

1. The integration issues of a new radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved.
2. Domestic radar program has ended in a failure and now a isrealis have been brought in for MMR .
3. Integration of a complete weapons suite needs to be resolved (just one missile trials as yet) 
4. FBW issues needs to be resolved so that the aircraft prototypes can surpass the 5G turn limit in current trials. (rated G limit is +9)

I myself wrote the LCA is winner in some areas but ur superiority statement regarding powerful engine, MMR, avionics and BVR capability are totally baseless. No fact and data supports them. Kindly don&#8217;t make premature hypothetical claims.

Cost escalation:

Gigantic cost escalation, yes dear its gigantic cost escalation and I mean it. 

fist come to kaveri, delays and cost escalation have dogged development of this indigenous GTRE Kaveri engine for the LCA to such an extent that the first two squadrons of LCAs will be fitted with General Electric F-404I.20 engines, similar to those fitted in the prototypes. the Cabinet Committee on Security judged that the Kaveri would not be installed on the LCA before 2012-13.

Kaveri development is now estimated at Rs 2840 crore rupees way over the Rs 380 crores originally approved in 1989.
My goodness a cost escalation of 860%, Oh God, where are the finanacial managers, and you and HAL guys are justifying it just by a single word 'indeginization'. it has been more than 18 yrs and the engine is not yet ready. is this enough excuse for such giagantic cost escalation and 14 yrs of delay (5 more to come atleast, i.e 2 decade of delay).

kaveri was a separte program now come to the LCA itself, the development cost LCA has also spiralled upwards exponentially, it could well now cost Rs 10,000 crore, by the time it is complete by 2012 (very little hope). Original project cost estimates were put at Rs 5600 crores but the Government has sanctioned Rs 5489 crores ($ 1.18 billion) to cover development of the two technology demonstrators (TD-1 and TD-2), five prototype vehicles (PV1 to PV-5).

and this doesnt just stops here, there are dozens of other aspects related to this two deacdes of delay in providing the IAf specified aircraft. one such aspect is the mig21 upgrading, Due to delay in LCA, IAF had to spend extra Rs 11,440 crore in forced upgrades (bcoz various variants of the MiG-21 that the LCA was supposed to replace a decade ago were forced to serve till 2019-2021 at least) and stop-gap acquisitions.

The cost of complete weapon suit for LCA is separte from all these cost estimates, aircraft weaponization is another very expensive area which is still taken to be taken in to account.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

I am concerned...

If it was to be a Pakistani Project i would say.... Is it worth puting so much effort in a project to create a medium tech plane which will (when produced serially) become old news in the coming decade. 

Just cannot accept the fact that LCA will have 100&#37; Indian Components. Can't see the infrustructure for Avionics and Aircraft Industry self reliance in all aspects, building up in India!


----------



## Joodi

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> I am concerned...
> 
> If it was to be a Pakistani Project i would say.... Is it worth puting so much effort in a project to create a medium tech plane which will (when produced serially) become old news in the coming decade.
> !



Exactly, the future prospects and growth potential for LCA are already on question, 

IAF is making its intentions clear, they are no more interested in any such indeginious venture in future. IAF is going for 126 (4.5 generation) multirole aircraft (either amercian, eurpoean or russian), which will be manfuctured in india on TOT basis.
and with the signing of aggrement with Russia for a 5th generation aircraft (PAK-FA), the future of Local medium combat aircraft darkens & MCA project is very likely to be shelved. Now IAF is concentrating on 4.5 generation and 5th generation aircraft ventures, the growth potential and future propects for LCA doesnt look bright at all.


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> Dont worry abt my motives dear conecentrate on discussion. and i request dont get personal in discussion.




Man first of all go and properly read my previous statement, I didnt raise finger over your motive, instead I had suggested you to understand my motives.




Joodi said:


> JF-17 IOC:
> 
> ur question regarding JF-17 IOC or FOC, i dont know, i think jf-17 forum is the better forum, they can provide the right answer, i can just tell you that 4 JF-17 are currently operating in PAF and 16 more will be inducted this year inshaAllah with serial production starting this year from PAC KAMRA.




Man induction of Jf-17, because PAF was in dire condition on account of ageing fleet. Induction of a particular fighter plane doesnt mean it has completed its IOC and FOC. 




Joodi said:


> kindly tell me when i have written such an statement that LCA is a failure just bcoz it has foreign elements also. i have never written any such thing.




You should check back your previous post regarding your claim of LCA as failure





Joodi said:


> I wrote:" Project objective, Project Cost, In time delivery of project, Quality and experienced/skill gained are the basis aspects related to any engineering project, .if u discuss with me in good spirit i tell you how this project has failed miserably in meeting the first five basic objectives except the experience/skilled gained which is the only point achieved along with partial achievement of first aspect".
> 
> LCA as a project failed in most basic aspect related to any engineering project, skilled and experienced is the only area of its success. if u have different openion then let me know ur views regarding any specific aspect and i will give my reply.




Joodi, I had asked you what are those five basic elements where LCA has failed in a previous thread as well, as I am always ready to discuss with you.





Joodi said:


> One on One.
> Yes JF-17 and LCA are one to one, (this is my assessment, u have every right to disagree).Quite frankly I dont see a possibility of JF-17 versus LCA dog fight in near future (LCA not ready). when I mean one to one, it is on the basis of available technical data, kindly discuss each aspect separately if u have a different opinion but purely on technical ground.




You had provided all the specifications of LCA and JF-17 on previous occasion, I had discussed all those technical details with you with textbook precision, I think you should refer my previous post.




Joodi said:


> Plz put a side any romanticism abt the aircraft and analyze them purely as a machine.




Joodi, so far I had answered to your question filled with skeptics about LCA as a project, What exactly makes you think that I had fumed Romanticism about aircraft? 




Joodi said:


> MMR failure:
> 
> what is wrong with u man, just read ur comments "when it is used as a point defence fighter, then MMR is a definately a workable piece", come on dude, there wer serious problems even with the air to air mode that was made locally, Even HAL and ADA have never been able to make such an overambitious claim regarding local MMR, ur statement of workable piece is totally baseless and nonfactual.





Oh my goodness! Where does there was an problem with Air to Air mode?, pls provide link before accusing me of making baselss and nonfactual claims.

How does HAL and ADA have made such an overambitious claims? Since MMR is not their product and their work is only to integrate it with LCA.


Offcourse my comments would be baseless and nonfactual since they are assumptions and I had put on condition about it as point defence fighter. 




Joodi said:


> first of all LCA is designed as a multirole aircraft not as a point defence fighter, secondly it is MMR, i repeat multi mode radar not a sigle mode radar so either stop calling it a multi mode radar and call it a single mode radar or accept the truth of failure of local MMR.




I had put a condition of Point defence fighter regarding my claim of MMR, since it is valid to some extent since LCA is going to replace Point defence fighter of IAF that is Mig-21.

About my acceptability of Failure of MMR, I dont have the such credentials to lablled it as a failure because some chronic issues with MMR with regards to Air to ground Mode doesnt translate in itself it as a failure.




Joodi said:


> u are claiming MMR a definate workable piece, then kindly tell me on what basis, dont make such baseless tall claims, local MMR program was a complete failure, not a partial failure as u said. and now isrealis have been called in for help and assistance and do the job what havent been done even after 18 yrs. face the hard core facts.



Pls 18 years of delay, delay and assistance from Isrealies doesnt translate MMR as a failure because it is a tradition of engineering projects which cant get completed without any flaws. 





Joodi said:


> LCA Superiority Hypothesis:
> 
> u says " advanced avionics, topclass engine, top class BVR missile" "topclass" yaar atleast use mature words.
> 
> Dude would u kindly share with me the basis of such conclusive (yet very hypothetical) statement regarding LCA engine, BVR capability and avionics/radar superiority over JF-17.



Then pls tell which words should I used? It is a reality and worldwide acknowledgement, since its some of some of the Su-30MKI avionics are sourced directly from the LCA. 

Regarding engine, current engine of the LCA is being utilized also on F-18 super hornets as well F-117. 

Regarding BVR, IAF arsenal of BVR which comprises Isreali, Russian and in development Indian version of Astra are on par with worlds top class BVRs. 

Regarding Radar, Elta of isreal is already pitching hard to integrate their AESA on LCA.




Joodi said:


> Ur whole hypothesis is totally baseless, based on tall claims. Non of the fact supports ur statement, no data, no reference material.



Pls let me know on which elements of LCA, I should provide you with Links and facts. Then I will swarmed your response with several links and facts





Joodi said:


> How can u say that engine in LCA is powerful than the Russian RD-93 in JF-17, go and check the details of both engines and rectify ur false statement urself. (kaveri is not ready so it can not to taken in for comparision with already installed russian Rd-93)



Joodi, The GE F404 is a rather popular engine: F/A-18 Hornet, F-117 Nighthawk and even the famed B-2 Stealth bomber is powered by (Four) F404s! The JAS-39 too is powered by a modification of the F404 made by Volvo. When the Rafale prototype first flew, it too had the GE F404 engines.






Joodi said:


> LCA has no avionics superiority over JF-17, avionics is a very detailed topic, i can discuss separately if u wish, and wipe out any such superiority complex.



Joodi, it is reality that Avionics used on Su-30mki is sourced from the LCA, and those same avionics make Su-30mki unparallel to anyother fighter plane.

I am just inviting you to wipe out my superiority of complex in terms of avionics. But before that let yourself get familrize yourself with LCA Avionics.

The following are the components developed by Indian agencies: 

32 bit Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE) 
Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE) 
Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE 
IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) 
Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL) 
Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL) 
Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE) 

The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.

These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.

The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.

The navigation/weapons systems from the various countries were integrated by Ramenskoye RPKB.




Joodi said:


> As for ur "topclass BVR capability" my dear neither the MMR nor the BVR-AAM is ready for LCA, MMR is underdevelopment with the isreali help and assistance, how can any one even talk abt superior BVR capability when radar is still in development phase and BVR-AAM is not even finalized for the LCA either by HAL or IAF. A final decision is yet to be taken abt what BVR-AAM, LCA gone use, will it be any russian BVR , western BVR or the local BVR ASTRA.



Unreadiness of MMR doesnt mean LCA cant be associate itself with superior BVR, LCA always has an option of Isreali Elta AESA and AN/APG-67 from Lockheed Martin. Regarding your BVR, I think you should recheck regarding its BVR-AAM, LCA has always an option of variety of BVRs that is being available with IAF arsenal like R-77 and Python and underdevelopment Astra. We could have fitted LCA with AESA, but IAF decided to go with MMR.




Joodi said:


> Not a single test has been conducted in this respect. Last october LCA gone through its first ever weapon test in last 25 years, and that also not for BVR-AAM, it was of a Russian within visual range (WVR-AAM) R-73. Even the test regarding WVR-AAM were not final, it was only for the firing test of R-73 and not an accuracy test, there being no target.



Man you are claiming both your assumption at the same time regarding test of AAM, first you claim that not a single test has been conducted but at the same breath you admitted that LCA has gone through AAM Test.

Offcourse there is no target since it is inherited obligation of first ever test firing of AAM from any kind of new fighter plane, so accuracy test would not be an obligation.



Joodi said:


> the main objectives of that test firing were:
>  Safe separation of the missile from the parent aircraft.
>  Effect of missile plume on engine air-intake
>  Functionality of store management system (SMS) including safety interlocks
>  Effect of missile plume on composites structures
>  Handling quality assessment during missile launch




All this objectives were accomplished during test firing of AAM from LCA




Joodi said:


> After the test firing Mr. PS Subramanyam, director of the LCA programme said that:
> 
> Our next goal is target acquisition and fire control, which will take off only after a multimode radar (MMR) is fitted on the Tejas, which is under developed with Israeli help, and is likely to be fitted onto the Tejas.
> 
> dear integration of BVR capability is no joke, and it becomes a far cry when the MMR it self is not ready. and BVR-AAM is not finally selected.




Man this are step by step testing of AAM associated with any kind of fighter plane which has never tested with AAM earlier before.





Joodi said:


> So first build a fully funcational MMR for LCA with all necessary modes (with isreali help and assistance), then finalize the BVR-AAM for it and then integrate them to achieve the objective. We will discuss the BVR capability issue later when it is made available on LCA, better achieve success in integrating WVR-AAM completely first and then think abt BVR issue.




If this really was the case, then why did you made the claim of JF-17 being equal to LCA in BVR.

Joodi, In my opinion you should remind yourself about this verdict, since you were the one who say that JF-17 and LCA both are similar in terms of speed, engine thrust, BVR capability,FBW capability, weapon suit. 

When you want me to show the superiority of BVR of LCA after whole completion of Radar and BVR integration, then you should not make the statement that JF-17 and LCA are equal in terms of BVR. Since I justify the superiority of BVR on LCA on the premise that whole range of BVR missiles as well as Radar on offer to LCA and in contrast I havet seen anything like that in respect of JF-17. 

If JF-17 is really equal to LCA in terms of BVR, then why dont you let JF-17 to integrate itself with Radar and BVR missiles on the same premise you have reminded me about integration of radar and bvr on lca. 

On what premise you have equalize LCA with JF- 17 on BVR issue?, when you yourself not confirm about the integration of RADAR and BVR on JF-17 itself




Joodi said:


> ur stated areas of LCA superiority are following facing these problems at the moment;
> 
> 1.	The integration issues of a new radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved.



It has nothing to do with my claim of superiority, since myself has admitted with this fact. 



Joodi said:


> 2.	Domestic radar program has ended in a failure and now a isrealis have been brought in for MMR .



Domestic radar is not ended in failure, some of its minor nicks that was created during Air to ground mode have been corrected with Isreali Help. Minor nicks doesnt describe in itself complete failure.



Joodi said:


> 3.	Integration of a complete weapons suite needs to be resolved (just one missile trials as yet)



Definetly an hardcore fact



Joodi said:


> 4.	FBW issues needs to be resolved so that the aircraft prototypes can surpass the 5G turn limit in current trials. (rated G limit is +9)



Pls provide the link for this exaggeration.



Joodi said:


> I myself wrote the LCA is winner in some areas but ur superiority statement regarding powerful engine, MMR, avionics and BVR capability are totally baseless. No fact and data supports them. Kindly dont make premature hypothetical claims.



I never made any hypothetical claims since I only try to correct your ignorance about LCA in its subsystem.




Joodi said:


> Cost escalation:
> 
> Gigantic cost escalation, yes dear its gigantic cost escalation and I mean it.



How do you mean it? Have you got the copy of audit report of LCA project management?



Joodi said:


> fist come to kaveri, delays and cost escalation have dogged development of this indigenous GTRE Kaveri engine for the LCA to such an extent that the first two squadrons of LCAs will be fitted with General Electric F-404I.20 engines, similar to those fitted in the prototypes. the Cabinet Committee on Security judged that the Kaveri would not be installed on the LCA before 2012-13.




Definetly indisputable fact, since privilege of development of Fighter plane engine is being associated with very few countries in the world and on top of that India started the development of engine from scratch and hence delays were inevitable.




Joodi said:


> Kaveri development is now estimated at Rs 2840 crore rupees way over the Rs 380 crores originally approved in 1989.
> 
> My goodness a cost escalation of 860%, Oh God, where are the finanacial managers, and you and HAL guys are justifying it just by a single word 'indeginization'.




How did you arrive at the figure of 860%? 

What kind of equation and ratios did you utilize to come across this figure? 

What was the value of the Rupees in terms of doller during the project was first envisage and correlation of your equation with this value to arrive at this figure of 860%? 







Joodi said:


> it has been more than 18 yrs and the engine is not yet ready. is this enough excuse for such giagantic cost escalation and 14 yrs of delay (5 more to come atleast, i.e 2 decade of delay).



When Aviation giant like France can suffered from delays of 13 years in M-88 engine development for rafale as well as significant cost escalation despite decades of engine development experience, then one can get the glimpse of magnitude of complexity involved in engine development and associated cost escalation. GTRE without its prior experince of engine development started kaveri project from scratch, so inevitability of delays and cost escalation can be justified.





Joodi said:


> kaveri was a separte program now come to the LCA itself, the development cost LCA has also spiralled upwards exponentially, it could well now cost Rs 10,000 crore, by the time it is complete by 2012 (very little hope).
> Original project cost estimates were put at Rs 5600 crores but the Government has sanctioned Rs 5489 crores ($ 1.18 billion) to cover development of the two technology demonstrators (TD-1 and TD-2), five prototype vehicles (PV1 to PV-5).



Offcourse mate, I admitted from long time and still want to admit that such cost escalation is being experience in every fighter project, since the figure that you have mentioned above is from wikipedia and significiant amount of it is spent on creating the necessary infrastructure for fighter plane development. Regarding the figure of Rs. 10,000 crore is you have quoted from wikipedia and it was quoted by the Times of India, but I think you forget to mentioned over here A Rs. 2,000 crores (over US$450 million) order for 20 Tejas aircraft would represent a unit procurement cost of US$22.6 million for each and By comparison, the Times of India quoted the costs for the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen and French Rafale as Rs. 150 crores (US$34 million) and Rs. 270 crores (US$61 million), respectively, while pricing the new American F-22 Raptor stealth fighter at Rs. 480 crores (US$108 million).[2]





Joodi said:


> and this doesnt just stops here, there are dozens of other aspects related to this two deacdes of delay in providing the IAf specified aircraft. one such aspect is the mig21 upgrading, Due to delay in LCA, IAF had to spend extra Rs 11,440 crore in forced upgrades (bcoz various variants of the MiG-21 that the LCA was supposed to replace a decade ago were forced to serve till 2019-2021 at least) and stop-gap acquisitions.




The project that has started from scratch and with limited budget and on top of that without any kind of knowhow and expertise of homegrown design. Tejas was badly hitted especially during 1999 pokhern nucler test and US imposed sanction on India. During that Sanction period, all GE engine as well as FBW techs were held, and hence HAL had to acquire competency on their own in FBW development and they done that on their own. 




Joodi said:


> The cost of complete weapon suit for LCA is separte from all these cost estimates, aircraft weaponization is another very expensive area which is still taken to be taken in to account.



Please Please Please Please provide the link which can validate this exaggaration.


----------



## KENT

Joodi said:


> Exactly, the future prospects and growth potential for LCA are already on question,



Future prospects of LCA is very bright and several technologies that India have learned from LCA is blooming in the form of Su-30mki, IJT,SARAS,MCA, PAK-FA,MTA and host of all other upgrades of existing fleet of IAF as well as ECM and avionics as well as Multi mode Radar.




Joodi said:


> IAF is making its intentions clear, they are no more interested in any such indeginious venture in future.



And that is why they have provided its complete support for homegrown project like LCA and IJT as well as that is why Indian navy has constructing the Air-defence ship from where it can launch Naval LCA. Very recently LCA flown with Isreli laser targeting pod. IAF can't get such advance fighter plane at such a less cost anywhere in the world. 





Joodi said:


> IAF is going for 126 (4.5 generation) multirole aircraft (either amercian, eurpoean or russian), which will be manfuctured in india on TOT basis.



We already got the 4.5 generation fighter plane in the form of Su-30MKI and MRCA has been press into service to reduce operational and logistical cost as well as stop gap measure to maintain the desired level of squadran for IAF and hence it has nothing to be done with LCA.




Joodi said:


> and with the signing of aggrement with Russia for a 5th generation aircraft (PAK-FA),



the whole object of Signing of PAF-FA project was to learn and get required competence in building Fifth generation fighter plane.



Joodi said:


> the future of Local medium combat aircraft darkens & MCA project is very likely to be shelved.



It will never going to be shelved since the first flight of LCA, several foriegn aviation giant have come forward to collabrate with their Indian Couterparts and regarding MCA, work on MCA had already been started as well very recently design of MCA has also been freezed.



Joodi said:


> Now IAF is concentrating on 4.5 generation and 5th generation aircraft ventures, the growth potential and future propects for LCA doesnt look bright at all.



The avionics that were used in su-30mki project were partially also sourced from LCA project, as from Isreali and frech sources. Without LCA project IAF could never think of 4.5 and 5 generation fighter project. To operate and to concentrate on 4.5 and 5 geneation fighter project, one need to have an experience and competence in fighter aircraft development and in case of IAF the experience was in terms of the LCA.


----------



## JimmyJ

I think many of the fellow members would oppose the idea of India directly jumping into the LCA project. LCA project wouldn't have suffered the huge time delay if the development of Marut(remember the first program from India ?) had been continued. When Marut was halted, the technical learning curve itself was gone. If India doesn't seek the completion of LCA the same will happen again. This will lead to an incapability towards building a 5th Gen fighter on its own. So with all the criticism received from all quarters, GOI will pursue the project to the very end. A big criticism was regarding the cost escalation. Please check into the fighter development cost of 3rd and 4th gen fighters of western counterparts. You will see that what LCA has been allocated is a fraction. Cost escalation is expected in a defence project as requirements are meant too change and especially when requisite skill is little. Check about JSF and you will know what does cost escalation means perfectly. India still is learning many things, so where ever it cannot go alone it will seek foreign help. But at the same time will also learn to design and build the component in near future. The small steps are from where we all start to learn and build a better nation. America was not created in a day, nor was the Great Britian. They all have gone thru what India is currently passing with regards to technological developments. So lets wait to see where India leads to........


----------



## Titanium

United States delay hits Tejas flight test 


Ravi Sharma 
BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency&#8217;s (ADA) bid to identify a global aerospace firm that could help it hasten the *flight test programme of the light combat aircraft Tejas appears to have hit a hurdle*. The U.S. Department of State is yet to permit American companies seeking to tie up with the ADA, to share what is perceived as sensitive defence technologies with India. 

Under the U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) rules governing implementation of the Arms Export Control Act, American companies cannot export or import defence and military-related articles and services without approval from the State Department. 

*The move will jeopardise the bid by Boeing and Lockheed Martin to share their technological expertise with the ADA *and, ironically, help their competitors, European aerospace firms Eurofighter and Saab, which are also vying for the contract. 

Sources told The&#8194;Hindu that the State Department&#8217;s delay in giving permission to the American firms could affect the Navy&#8217;s plans to shift from platform-centric to network-centric operations. 


The Hindu : National : United States delay hits Tejas flight test


----------



## su-47

this means that we'll have to get help from Eurofighter or Saab instead of LM or boeing.


----------



## GreenMan

Most of LCA's software is written in the Ada prgramming language

LCA's Software
Quote from the above link


> The heart of the system is a 32-bit Mission Computer (MC) which performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, *Ada language has been adopted for mission computer software*.



This makes it less future proof as outside of the US Department of Defence Ada is a dying language

Here is a report about the future prospects of Ada

What About Ada? The State of the Technology in 2003

Indians copied the Americans and used Ada for LCA's Mission Computer's software but soon the development tools and the eco system around Ada will dry up as not many private companies will be supporting Ada. 

US compaines themselves are moving to the use of COTS ( Commercial off the Shelf ) stuff for their newer develpment , like the Golobal Hawk program relies mostly on COTS and given that not many private companies will be developing newer tools for Ada , its future indeed looks bleak.

As the support for Ada dies down Ada based software will become increasigly diffucult to maintian and upgrade and given the dimissal record of LCAs other development this will be yet another nail its coffin


----------



## IndianMunda

GreenMan said:


> Most of LCA's software is written in the Ada prgramming language
> 
> LCA's Software
> Quote from the above link
> 
> 
> This makes it less future proof as outside of the US Department of Defence Ada is a dying language
> 
> Here is a report about the future prospects of Ada
> 
> What About Ada? The State of the Technology in 2003
> 
> Indians copied the Americans and used Ada for LCA's Mission Computer's software but soon the development tools and the eco system around Ada will dry up as not many private companies will be supporting Ada.
> 
> US compaines themselves are moving to the use of COTS ( Commercial off the Shelf ) stuff for their newer develpment , like the Golobal Hawk program relies mostly on COTS and given that not many private companies will be developing newer tools for Ada , its future indeed looks bleak.
> 
> As the support for Ada dies down Ada based software will become increasigly diffucult to maintian and upgrade and given the dimissal record of LCAs other development this will be yet another nail its coffin



There are few Indian software companies participating in Military program and there will not be any problem if systems have to be translated in other language.


----------



## Surya

As long as the logic and flowchart is there, migrating from one language to other should never be a problem. Computer programming has come of age nowadays with many languages,tools being available but languages like C and C++ are still well supported. Even in terms of OS I have seen big banks still running Windows NT. India with its vast pool of software resources, it will never be a problem.


----------



## KENT

GreenMan said:


> Most of LCA's software is written in the Ada prgramming language
> 
> LCA's Software
> Quote from the above link
> 
> 
> This makes it less future proof as outside of the US Department of Defence Ada is a dying language
> 
> Here is a report about the future prospects of Ada
> 
> What About Ada? The State of the Technology in 2003
> 
> Indians copied the Americans and used Ada for LCA's Mission Computer's software but soon the development tools and the eco system around Ada will dry up as not many private companies will be supporting Ada.
> 
> US compaines themselves are moving to the use of COTS ( Commercial off the Shelf ) stuff for their newer develpment , like the Golobal Hawk program relies mostly on COTS and given that not many private companies will be developing newer tools for Ada , its future indeed looks bleak.
> 
> As the support for Ada dies down Ada based software will become increasigly diffucult to maintian and upgrade and given the dimissal record of LCAs other development this will be yet another nail its coffin



Mate, the site that you have mentioned in the form of link which raises serious question about ADA's software, pls care to elabroate us.... Is anything written over that sites is truly related to software developed for LCA by Indian Aerospace giant ADA? Since there is no metion of word Indian with ADA, and hence whatever written over there is relating someother ADA and not Indian ADA


----------



## GreenMan

I see that you didnt understand so here is the same thing I wrote earlier in simpler terms 

Ada is programming language , developed by the Department of Defence , primarily used by them for developing software for weapon systems and aircrafts.

Here is a very simple program in Ada

with Ada.Text_IO;
use Ada.Text_IO;

procedure indians_didnt_understand is 
begin
put_line("Indians didnt get it! ");
end;

Now do you get what Ada is ? Its a programming language

The India aerospace agency , being the copycat that it is , used the same abriviation ADA for naming itself.

The 'Indian ADA' used the 'Ada language' for LCA's sw components ( like missions computer's software etc ) According to 'Indian ADA's' website.

And here is the problem that is bound to come up due to use of Ada

Ada is a dying language outside of the US Department of Defence ( thats the study I posted about Ada )

India does not have the same capacity to produce technology as the US has that they can define their own development language and push for its use in their Armed forces even if the private sector is not actively developing the tools and products related to this language.

You guys have used borrowed technology for most of the other components ( engine from US and avionics from Israel ) and the claim that LCA's software was 'indigenously developed' is not completely true since the development tools all came from else where and when they go obsolete or become too expensive to maintain as will be the case for Ada so will LCA be further shoved in its grave.

The impression that so long as you have the flow charts you can convert code from one language to another, is bit naive. 

It might be ok to do so for your every day desktop application but doing the same for aircraft is not that straight forward. If any part of the code is changed the entire verification flow has to be re-done. Thats not a trivial task. Bugs can be introduced during conversion and then there are performance , reliability , testability and maintainability issue that come up any time a code base is changed , its not that straight forward.

Besides once the code is written and the systems go live they first of go through a whole series of compliance testing. In the United states even for commercial aircraft the requirements laid down by the FAA ( Federal Aviation Authority ) are so tough that no body in their right mind would do a silly thing like changing code base for even commercial aircrafts based on flow charts alone from one language to another. That would be disastrous. In fact I think you guys should do just that , it'll be a nice show of crap falling out of the sky when LCA crashes due to faulty sw.


----------



## Keysersoze

Green man I suggest you edit your post and remove the personal attacks and other comments. I will do so If you do not.


----------



## Malang

New Delhi: European aerospace and defence major, EADS, has offered to co-develop with India the technology for active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for installation on board the indigenously developed, light combat aircraft Tejas. The offer has been made even as US aerospace giants, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, are awaiting clearance from the US Congress to offer a transfer of technology (ToT) agreement to India for the same technology.

Talking to the media persons, EADS CEO, Stefan Zoller said, ''We have offered to co-develop the AESA e-copter radars with DRDO-LRDE.''

AESA radars, which are sported by some US frontline fighters like the F-22, help pilots track threats such as cruise missiles. AESA radars can track targets simultaneously in the air and on the ground.

Under India's Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) 2006, ToT agreements for AESA radars is one of the key elements of the request for proposals sent out to six major aerospace and defence companies who are bidding for the $10-billion deal for 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force.

Meanwhile, EADS has said that it has so far ensured coherent delivery of end-to-end services for its military and security customers and is fully engaged in future tactical and infrastructure network projects for the Indian Army.

According to Zoller, ''As an example of its commitment to India, we have delivered to the Indian Army a complete test bed (Parikshak) in order to help it understand the need for the tactical communications system (TCS) project,'' Zoller added.

As the bid opening time for the MMRCA project nears, Eurofighter, one of the contenders for the project, has said that it intends to open an office in New Delhi shortly in order to have local representation during the competition.

domain-b.com : EADS offers to co-develop AESA radars with DRDO


----------



## su-47

Malang said:


> New Delhi: European aerospace and defence major, EADS, has offered to co-develop with India the technology for active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for installation on board the indigenously developed, light combat aircraft Tejas. The offer has been made even as US aerospace giants, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, are awaiting clearance from the US Congress to offer a transfer of technology (ToT) agreement to India for the same technology.
> 
> Talking to the media persons, EADS CEO, Stefan Zoller said, ''We have offered to co-develop the AESA e-copter radars with DRDO-LRDE.''
> 
> AESA radars, which are sported by some US frontline fighters like the F-22, help pilots track threats such as cruise missiles. AESA radars can track targets simultaneously in the air and on the ground.
> 
> Under India's Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) 2006, ToT agreements for AESA radars is one of the key elements of the request for proposals sent out to six major aerospace and defence companies who are bidding for the $10-billion deal for 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Meanwhile, EADS has said that it has so far ensured coherent delivery of end-to-end services for its military and security customers and is fully engaged in future tactical and infrastructure network projects for the Indian Army.
> 
> According to Zoller, ''As an example of its commitment to India, we have delivered to the Indian Army a complete test bed (Parikshak) in order to help it understand the need for the tactical communications system (TCS) project,'' Zoller added.
> 
> As the bid opening time for the MMRCA project nears, Eurofighter, one of the contenders for the project, has said that it intends to open an office in New Delhi shortly in order to have local representation during the competition.
> 
> domain-b.com : EADS offers to co-develop AESA radars with DRDO



doesnt say if DRDO accepted the offer. i hope they do. If DRDO can obtain knowledge about an AESA radar, it will be possible to build indegenous AESAs very soon.


----------



## Titanium

LCA Trainer.......








Looks good...Kinda Chubby


----------



## EagleEyes

Titanium said:


> LCA Trainer.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good...Kinda Chubby



Whats the source? For all we know.. it might turn out to be the Hawk trainer.


----------



## Titanium

WebMaster said:


> Whats the source? For all we know.. it might turn out to be the Hawk trainer.



Broadsword: Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: two-seater trainer photo


----------



## zeus

The case to support the indigenous LCA programme

There have been several articles in the press critical of projects of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in general, and specifically the programme relating to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), now named Tejas, and the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme. Indeed, whenever a significant event that involves indigenous R&D, particularly defence-related, occurs, or a crucial decision is set to be taken, articles originating from within the defence &#8220;system,&#8221; or from vendors who see their business prospects threatened, appear. The real facts relating to the programme need to be put in context.

The two issues on which the LCA project is criticised are cost and time overruns, and performance shortfalls.* As regards the so-called time overruns, when the zero/go date for the project is taken as 1983, the critics fail to mention that what was sanctioned in 1983 was an ad hoc Rs.560 crore, pending full preparation of the Project Definition Document (PDD) &#8212; which is a fundamental step even to start the design and development process. The costs were to be finalised based on the PDD. This required the setting up of infrastructure in a hundred academic institutions and R&D laboratories and building up expertise to undertake the fundamental and application-oriented R&D required, and harnessing the design and engineering effort available largely in the public sector units for such a complex, state-of-the-art aircraft. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) discussed with Air Headquarters the Air Staff Requirement (ASR). Air Headquarters had requirements added to what was originally to be a replacement for the MiG-21. As a result, the ASR that was finalised was practically that for a Mirage 2000. But in the public perception the LCA remained as a replacement for MiG 21.

It look seven years, till 1990, to formulate the PDD. Based on this the ADA, in a report to the Ministry of Defence in 1990, gave a time-frame of seven years to develop the LCA and projected a financial requirement of Rs.4,000 crore. This included the building of four prototypes also. There had been a 25-year gap since the only fighter aircraft ever indigenously designed, developed and manufactured, namely the HF-24 Marut, had entered squadron service. So the period of seven years to set up a more advanced R&D infrastructure and build up even the core personnel needed to develop the technologies that the LCA&#8217;s ASR and PDD called for, was modest.

After consideration, including by special committees, the Indian Air Force and the government gave the real operational go-ahead only in late-1993. Even that &#8220;go-ahead&#8221; covered the development of only two Technology Demonstrator Aircraft (TDA) without weaponisation. The funding approved was only of Rs.2,000 crore &#8212; half the amount requested for full-scale development.* The first TDA flew in 2001, eight years from the real operational &#8216;go&#8217; date, despite much additional R&D work that had to be undertaken due to the U.S. sanctions imposed in 1998.

Comments appeared in the media in 2001 quoting IAF sources to the effect that what *the ADA had achieved was just a flying machine that was yet to be weaponised. Considering the nature and scope of the approval accorded in 1993, what else was to be expected? Using the money sanctioned for two TDAs, the ADA built four. Full-scale development, for which another Rs.2,000-plus crore was finally sanctioned, thus started only in late-2001. Some 1,200 hours of flight testing was to be undertaken to secure Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) from the IAF.*

At that point, apart from the weaponisation requirements the project had to undergo extensive redesign to accommodate an air-to-air missile chosen by the IAF, which was considerably heavier and longer than what had been specified till 2000. The IAF had again changed its mind. This necessitated the complete redesign of the wing structure, using only composite materials in order to keep the weight within limits. The period of this redesign was also utilised to upgrade the avionics, to a completely open architecture.

Consequently, in &#8220;generational terms&#8221; the LCA is a fourth generation-plus aircraft with full networking capabilities. This made it more than comparable to anything the IAF had, and possibly would have, even after it acquires the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) now on tender, with first deliveries due eight years hence.
On the engine

It is true that the Kaveri engine for the LCA that the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) of the DRDO has been developing for 12 years has not yet met its technical performance targets and requires redevelopment. So far the GE 404 engine from the U.S., which powers the F-16 fighter-bomber, has been used to power the LCA. The problems the GTRE has with the Kaveri are not unusual in a complex fighter aircraft engine project being undertaken for the first time. Moreover, the financial sanction of about Rs.320 crore given for engine development was possibly only to cover the Project Definition Phase and some high-risk technology development effort. We do not know of a first-of-type high-technology fighter aircraft engine being developed anywhere in less than a multi-billion dollar programme and a 20-year-plus development cycle. Even Snecma, the sole fighter aircraft engine manufacturer in France, despite decades of experience in developing and manufacturing engines for Mirage III, V and F-1, took about a decade and $2.2 billion to develop the M-88 engine for the Mirage 2000. The development of the Kaveri is unlikely to cross $1 billion.

The LCA with a GE 404 engine has done 800-plus hours of flight-testing. Even with that engine the performance has been not only vastly superior to that of even the recently upgraded MiG 21 BIS (the IAF is operating almost 400 of the series), but it has shown itself to be comparable in many critical parameters to the Mirage 2000. Modifications to the aircraft structure are under way to reduce weight and improve engine performance. When the GTRE&#8217;s joint venture with a leading foreign engine manufacturer for further development is completed in the next four years, the Kaveri will be brought up to a performance level, superior to the GE 404. Fitted with it, the LCA will be truly comparable to the Mirage 2000 and in many respects even superior. And all this in an aircraft much lighter than the Mirage 2000.

As for network-centric capability, which intrinsically needs indigenous systems for secrecy, security and inter-operability, it is superior in the LCA compared to any aircraft in the IAF&#8217;s inventory.

So it is a fallacy to think that we can continue the importing spree and still have such network-centric capability.

As recently as in 2005, the IAF&#8217;s requirement for 126 new aircraft was only for an upgraded Mirage 2000. At Rs.120 crore to Rs.140 crore a plane, compared to at least double that amount for any of the aircraft types now bidding for the 126 MRCA, is not the LCA a highly cost-effective fighter for volume induction into the IAF?

As for development costs, the LCA has remained well within the sanctioned $1.2 billion &#8212; which is about the lowest anywhere. Time overrun in the strict sense is only by a year or two, despite the sanctions. A first-of-type aircraft of this degree of complexity has not been developed anywhere in the West or in Russia in less than two to three decades.

The F16 series that was inducted into the U.S. Air Force in 1975 is today at Mark 60. That is how aircraft of this level of complexity are improved after induction. That this imperative applies even more to the LCA has to be recognised.

It is for the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister to ensure that this effort is not belittled or scuttled, and that the LCA programme is given all-out support &#8212; as successive Prime Ministers have ensured for our atomic energy and space programmes.

(Ashok Parthasarathi was Science Adviser to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. Vice- Admiral (retired) Raman Puri was Chief of Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman, Committee of Service Chiefs, remaining closely involved with the inter-service weapons acquisition process from October 2003 to February 2006).

http://www.idrw.org/2008/03/08/the_case_to_support_the_indigenous_lca_programme.html


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## zeus

More Images From Main Airframe Static Test (MAST)


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## Titanium

.....and the begging.....err........seeking partners....heh no......tapping is the new word..well whatever...

March 17, 2008 

India Taps Boeing for LCA Flight Training Design 

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI 

NEW DELHI &#8212; U.S. aerospace giant Boeing will perform the design and development work for the flight training stage of India&#8217;s home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Indian officials said. 

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, which is responsible for design, monitoring and development of the LCA, in mid-2007 invited bids for this stage of the project from overseas defense companies. With the selection of Boeing, a Defence Ministry official said, the LCA should be able to meet its 2010 induction target. 

Boeing officials did not confirm winning the contract. 

&#8220;Boeing has held discussions with India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency about providing engineering *consultancy that will enable ADA to accelerate their LCA flight-test program to successful completion*,&#8221; said Brian Nelson, spokesman for Boeing Integrated Defense. &#8220;These discussions continue.&#8221; France&#8217;s Dassault, Europe&#8217;s EADS, U.S. company Lockheed Martin, Russia&#8217;s MiG and Sweden&#8217;s Saab also bid on the project. 

*The work includes flight-envelope expansion, high angle of attack flight testing and aero-data validation and upgrade or aero database; external stores carriage and release and flight tests, with emphasis on stores separation modeling and testing; wake modeling and penetration flight tests; and refinements to existing real-time simulation models.* 

The consultations from Boeing are intended to hasten the flight testing toward initial operational clearance (IOC) and final operational clearance. 

Limited Capability by 2010 

The LCA, which is preparing to enter the weapon integration stage, has completed about 600 flight tests. The aim of the program now is to achieve IOC with the Multi Mode Radar (MMR) integrated with a weapon suite that will give the aircraft limited operational capability by 2010. It could take three years and about 1,500 hours of flight testing to move from IOC to final clearance. 

The LCA is likely to reach IOC and be inducted into the Indian Air Force by 2010. 

The main problems encountered on the way to IOC include integration of the external carriage, integration with the multi- mode radar, fuel tanks and other external pods. Eight limited-series-production aircraft, along with two technical demonstrators and five prototype vehicles, are part of the LCA&#8217;s design and development program. 

State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics, Bangalore, is the production agency involved with ADA in the LCA&#8217;s development. 

Six Air Force prototypes, including one limited-series-production plane, are under flight testing now. The first Air Force trainer is undergoing integration and scheduled for its first flight around midyear. Another Air Force trainer and seven limited-series-production aircraft are under construction, a senior ADA official said. 

The Air Force has ordered 20 LCAs and is likely to order more than 200 more once the aircraft is inducted into service. 

The all-weather, supersonic LCA is a single-seat, single-engine, multirole air superiority fighter designed for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea combat. It has been in development since 1983. 

The project definition phase was completed in 1989 and the FSED phase-I was approved in 1993. 

ADA&#8217;s principal partner on the LCA is state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Bangalore.


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## Titanium

Ravi Sharma 

BANGALORE: India&#8217;s two-decade quest for an engine that will power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has taken another twist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) setting up a committee that will scout worldwide for an engine

Initially expected to be a 93-month programme, costing Rs. 382 crore, the Kaveri project&#8217;s development cost, according to the Cabinet Committee on Security, has been revised to Rs.2,839 crore. 

The inability of the GTRE to come up with the Kaveri has now forced the formation of the new committee. *But the GTRE&#8217;s task has also been complicated by the fact that with the Tejas overweighing by well over a tonne, a Kaveri engine developed as per specifications originally spelt out (when the Tejas was within its design weight)* will not be capable of providing a heavier aircraft with the thrust that can satisfy the Air Force&#8217;s ASR.


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## Keysersoze

Questions over Tejas&#8217; induction

Ravi Sharma

Data indicates that the LCA will not be able to meet Air Staff Requirements

Bangalore: With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft&#8217;s long term induction into the squadron service.

Not willing to be presented with a fait accompli at a later date, the IAF&#8217;s clear message is that as the end user it must be given what it wants and &#8220;what was repeatedly promised to it&#8221;; and an underpowered Tejas, which has also seen an increase in its basic all up weight, would not meet their requirements.

The IAF has communicated that the Tejas&#8217; performance, both in terms of thrust and its airframe qualities, was still a long way from what was desirable. While the IAF had placed a firm order for 20 of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) designed and developed Tejas, it has been assumed that the IAF would eventually buy over 200 of the aircraft.

Designed to have capabilities that fit it into the lower end of the combat aircraft spectrum, the Tejas was developed with the intention of replacing the MiG-21s, the ageing warhorse of the IAF which were inducted over 40 years ago and are of a design technology that has long been surpassed.

The Tejas, as per the IAF drawn up ASR, had to be &#8220;much, much better&#8221; than the MiG-21s. Though the fly-by-wire Tejas has its plus points, data, including from the aircraft&#8217;s recent low altitude tests at INS Rajali in Arakonam, showed that this might not be possible with the present configuration.

An Air Force officer said: &#8220;We have been given a mandate by the government and with this in mind drawn up an ASR. It has to be met. There is no point in the ADA pressuring us to accept a lower ASR at this stage. For years, at every meeting, the ADA has been saying that the Tejas will comply with the ASR.&#8221;

The Tejas, which has so far completed almost 800 test flights, is now powered by the General Electric manufactured GE F404 engine, which will eventually be replaced by the long-delayed Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) designed and developed Kaveri.

Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify.
Issues over thrust

But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas&#8217; air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas&#8217; flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. &#8220;The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.&#8221; But this could further increase its all up weight.
Equal partners

Even as the IAF is unhappy with the Tejas&#8217; performance, it is insisting that they are equal partners in the over Rs. 5,500 crore programme. &#8220;The ADA can work on a derivative of the Tejas. This is what aircraft design and development is all about. You can&#8217;t just thrust the first product down the customer&#8217;s throat.&#8221;

The Hindu : National : Questions over Tejas&#8217; induction


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## MastanKhan

Keyeser and Titanium,

As a nationalistic pakistani, I am greatly concerned at the new threat I am seeing, coming from across the border in the form of LCA. This deadly aircraft would forever change the way IAF operates and the way PAF reacts. I ,mean to say that PAF will have to come with a different combat strategy and game plan to encounter this war bird---PAF pilots will have to be retrained and reprogrammed to face the menace of the LCA. Pakistani millitary radar operators will be re-schooled in the art of tracking this incoming monster----the awacs operators---the moment they saw the LCA coming, they will open the escape hatch, jump out of the awac and leave the pilot and co pilot at the mercy of come what may. Some of these operators may have been so scared that they may have forgotten to harness their parachutes on their backs. The fear of this flying menace would get the better of their judgement on that fatal entounter. Push came to shove, even I would like to put my head between my knees and try to kiss my ar-se goodbye. So long.


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## Malang

Keyser that was a 4months old news!!
anyways

Tejas: ADA looks to Boeing to provide help

BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence laboratory behind the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), could soon be turning to global aerospace major Boeing to help them with the aircrafts flight testing programme.

Officials from Boeing met with designers from the ADA on Saturday for what could be the final round of discussions on aspects and scope of the consultancy, and on contractual negotiations.

It is hoped that the consultancy from Boeing will help expedite the number of sorties that are to be flown in each phase of flight testing as the ADA attempts to obtain initial operational clearance (IOC) for the Tejas. ADAs latest revised schedule speaks of a 2010 deadline for IOC. Boeing, which has the requisite experience on flight test programmes like their F-18 Hornet, will provide the ADA with inputs on points in the flying envelope that flight tests will have to be conducted. This will avoid unnecessary flights, saving on both costs, and even more importantly, time, enabling the ADA to compress the LCAs flight test programme. ADA had selected Boeing after finding that the American firms technical proposals were the most suitable in the global tender that was sent out two years ago. Lockheed Martin and the European consortium of EADS could be called for talks if those with Boeing fail. 
The Hindu : National : Tejas: ADA looks to Boeing to provide help


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## Keysersoze

Malang said:


> Keyser that was a 4months old news!!
> anyways
> 
> Tejas: ADA looks to Boeing to provide help
> 
> BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence laboratory behind the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), could soon be turning to global aerospace major Boeing to help them with the aircrafts flight testing programme.
> 
> Officials from Boeing met with designers from the ADA on Saturday for what could be the final round of discussions on aspects and scope of the consultancy, and on contractual negotiations.
> 
> It is hoped that the consultancy from Boeing will help expedite the number of sorties that are to be flown in each phase of flight testing as the ADA attempts to obtain initial operational clearance (IOC) for the Tejas. ADAs latest revised schedule speaks of a 2010 deadline for IOC. Boeing, which has the requisite experience on flight test programmes like their F-18 Hornet, will provide the ADA with inputs on points in the flying envelope that flight tests will have to be conducted. This will avoid unnecessary flights, saving on both costs, and even more importantly, time, enabling the ADA to compress the LCAs flight test programme. ADA had selected Boeing after finding that the American firms technical proposals were the most suitable in the global tender that was sent out two years ago. Lockheed Martin and the European consortium of EADS could be called for talks if those with Boeing fail.
> The Hindu : National : Tejas: ADA looks to Boeing to provide help



Malang I was merely posting a relevant article. It is interesting that only 4 months ago that this was even a issue. I mean this program has been around for a while and has been boasted about about quite a bit in certain quarters.


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## Keysersoze

Giving a detailed reply on the status of the Light Combat Aircraft being jointly developed by the DRDO and HAL, Shri Antony said major breakthroughs in the project have been achieved in recent times and he is confident that "it will be in the sky within a few years." 

He said the Indian Air Force, which was not willing to accept even one of this aircraft earlier, has now decided to receive two squadrons, indicating their confidence in the aircraft. The Defence Minister admitted that there are still problems with the high-powered Kaveri engine and negotiations are on for a suitable partnership. 

Ok I cannot find the whole original article so you will have to bear with me for a bit., but he highlighted blue section is interesting. The fact that at this late stage statements like the above ares till being made (albeit 4 months old, which is not too out of date considering the length of the program) And that the IAF is "willing to accept" ~28 planes does not fill me with confidence. And Also it is the first round of discussions with Boeing it does not mean it has reached fruition.


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## Titanium

Keysersoze said:


> Giving a detailed reply on the status of the Light Combat Aircraft being jointly developed by the DRDO and HAL, Shri Antony said major breakthroughs in the project have been achieved in recent times and he is confident that "it will be in the sky within a few years."
> 
> He said the Indian Air Force, which was not willing to accept even one of this aircraft earlier, has now decided to receive two squadrons, indicating their confidence in the aircraft. The Defence Minister admitted that there are still problems with the high-powered Kaveri engine and negotiations are on for a suitable partnership.
> 
> Ok I cannot find the whole original article so you will have to bear with me for a bit., but he highlighted blue section is interesting. The fact that at this late stage statements like the above ares till being made (albeit 4 months old, which is not too out of date considering the length of the program) And that the IAF is "willing to accept" ~28 planes does not fill me with confidence. And Also it is the first round of discussions with Boeing it does not mean it has reached fruition.




What is this world coming to,, Key, you are taking over my role here??? How can you do this to me.

This is not like you...........anyway


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## Goodperson

Keysersoze said:


> Giving a detailed reply on the status of the Light Combat Aircraft being jointly developed by the DRDO and HAL, Shri Antony said major breakthroughs in the project have been achieved in recent times and he is confident that "it will be in the sky within a few years."
> 
> He said the Indian Air Force, which was not willing to accept even one of this aircraft earlier, has now decided to receive two squadrons, indicating their confidence in the aircraft. The Defence Minister admitted that there are still problems with the high-powered Kaveri engine and negotiations are on for a suitable partnership.
> 
> Ok I cannot find the whole original article so you will have to bear with me for a bit., but he highlighted blue section is interesting. The fact that at this late stage statements like the above ares till being made (albeit 4 months old, which is not too out of date considering the length of the program) And that the IAF is "willing to accept" ~28 planes does not fill me with confidence. And Also it is the first round of discussions with Boeing it does not mean it has reached fruition.



IAF changed its specifications add to that some mismanagement at DRDO, Initial orders even if few are encouraging. Everyone knows it will be ten times than that. But need to wait couple of years more I guess.


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## Titanium

More data sought on military aircraft 

Bangalore, DHNS: 



Former Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Director Air Marshal (Retd) P Rajkumar on Saturday said that the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) should insist from the developmental agencies to provide more data on the performance and other parameters of the military aircraft, during the developmental stages. 

Delivering the keynote address on Flight Test Challenges at a seminar on Aerospace Technologies, he said that the CEMILAC, which is a government agency that certifies all military aircraft and systems should insist on data collection.  During the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme there were several problems in instrumentation, measuring the aero dynamic loads on the airframe and in the conversion of data from analog to digital format, said Air Marshal (Retd) P Rajkumar, who was heading the LCA project when the aircraft took its first flight.

He said that *even after eight years the LCAs first flight test, the air intake efficiency was not measured *and that the CEMILAC should insist on it.

Failure
*He also said that another area where he failed was in reducing the weight of the LCA, as the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted the airframes to be light*. However, there was not much success in this regard.







The former ADA Director also stressed the need for good human resource policies in the various defence agencies, which is involved in the designing, development and certification inorder to ensure that the crucial defence projects are not delayed.

When did this Light aircraft became heavy one.


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## Titanium

More from DODO Land...........
KOCHI: The Indian Air Force has a serious problem with the lightness of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the countrys flagship indigenous aviation programme.

A list of issues has recently been raised by the IAF about the project, already flying through a bad patch of technological factors and time and cost overruns.

Engine-related issues continue to plague the project and the Air Force is not happy with the thrust values generated by the new GE404 engine powering the aircraft.

In fact, one factor that threw the project out of gear was the delay in developing the Kaveri engines.With no option in sight, HAL decided to go ahead with the developmental trials with the GE 404 till an indigenous engine was ready.

The IAF experts now say that the thrust generated by the *GE404 is not adequate for all the manoeuvres expected of the LCA*,which will be replacing the ageing MiG 21 fleet.

Its no longer light. The aircraft was supposed to weigh only 8,000 kg after all the changes effected on it. *But today it has put on another 2,000 kg* and weighs 10,000 kg. And it is but natural that the engine is unable to support it to the maximum, IAF sources told this websites newspaper.

This leaves HAL in a dilemma. The builder now has to either subject the aircraft to some design planning with a view to reducing the drag or reduce the weight of the aircraft.

*There is hardly any flab on its body. We will take a look at the design to reduce drag*, sources said. But that is easier said than done.

_HAL will have to go in for a design consultancy_(Foreign consultancy for indigenous?) to fine-tune an already tested aircraft, which will further delay the full-fledged commissioning of the project.

Another solution, and probably the best, will be to use a new engine with better thrust levels. The new engine can be selected with the weight-thrust ratio in mind. This will take care of all manoeuvres expected of the aircraft even if its weight were to go up slightly again, sources said.

The IAF and HAL have formed a committee to look into the issues, including the selection of a new engine. A high-level meeting is scheduled this month end to finalise the action plan.

But HAL will build 20 LCA-Tejas aircraft for the IAF as planned. This squadron will be inducted and the base is getting ready at Sulur in Tamil Nadu, sources said.


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## Flintlock

*India&#8217;s light combat aircraft Tejas will fly over the deserts of Rajasthan later this month for hot weather trials*



Bangalore: India&#8217;s light combat aircraft Tejas will fly over the deserts of Rajasthan later this month for hot weather trials.
The trials, in which the airplane and its systems will be tested in the summer heat, begin a crucial phase for the fighter before the Indian Air Force (IAF) inducts it into its fleet. &#8220;Because we are doing it for the first time, we are very very careful,&#8221; says P. S. Subramanyam, head of the Tejas programme at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) the aircraft development arm of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The designers of Tejas have till 2010&#8212;four years behind schedule&#8212;to achieve initial operational clearance, a milestone it has to cross before meeting IAF standards. These two years will be the toughest because the aircraft will be stretched to the limits of its performance, and any mistake could endanger the project.
ADA has appointed Boeing Co., which makes the F-18 fighter, as a consultant to help in flight trials till the certification.
When compared with the US or Russia, India&#8217;s fighter development programme is still taking baby steps despite its air force being a large buyer of military aircraft.
IAF is buying 126 fighters in a global tender valued at more than Rs42,000 crore to replace the ageing Russian-built MiG fighters in its fleet.


The Tejas project is India&#8217;s second fighter development programme. In the 1960s, the country tried to build a fighter aircraft&#8212;the HF-24 Marut&#8212;that failed to take off after failing to meet the air force&#8217;s expectations.
Tejas was conceived in the 1980s. It is a single-engine supersonic, fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-by-wire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers.
Although the project officially kicked off in 1989, ADA says the inital fund of Rs2,188 crore to develop technology demonstrators arrived only in 1993. After its first flight in January 2001, the govermnent sanctioned an additional Rs3301.78 crore to build five prototype aircraft, including trainers, and equip them with weapons. These were scheduled to enter service by 2006.
The Tejas fleet of six aircraft, including two technology demonstrators, powered by US-made General Electric 404 engines, have flown 865 sorties so far.
In 2006, IAF ordered 20 Tejas aircraft to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL, in addition to 8 limited series production planes.
The Tejas project did not meet its deadline, prompting IAF to appoint Air Vice Marshal B.C. Nanjappa to hasten its development and draw a plan for delivery.
IAF&#8217;s suggestions included design expectations that are yet to be proved in simulation or wind tunnel tests. Nanjappa declined to comment on the matter.
&#8220;That is why (we ) should be careful, because it could lead to unrecoverable situations if it (the aircraft) is not controlled properly,&#8221; says T. Tamilmani, chief executive of Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, an independent regulating agency under the DRDO.
There have been several instances of mishap in aircraft development globally. In India, a prototype airborne early warning and control system developed by the Centre for Airborne Systems, a Bangalore lab of DRDO, crashed in 1999.
Tamilmani says he does not see a challenge in certifiying the Tejas for safety standards. &#8220;The challenge is in complying with the air staff requirements set by the IAF.&#8221;
Air&#8195;Marshal (retd) P. Rajkumar, a former head of the fighter project, says he can understand why DRDO has been careful in pushing the limits of the aircraft. &#8220;I would rather have an aircraft that meets all safety requirements a few years late, than an unreliable one tomorrow.&#8221; Rajkumar has written a book&#8212;The Tejas Story&#8212;on the light combat aircraft programme.
Analysts say going slow due to a learning curve is only to be expected, but the delays in getting the radar, weaponisation and finally, a homegrown Kaveri engine for the fighter, are worrying signs.
&#8220;It is not just being cautious. They also have to reach the technical specifications within the time frame,&#8221; says A.K. Saxena, a former managing director of HAL, the manufacturer of Tejas. &#8220;That is not happening&#8221;.

Tejas set for hot weather trials over Rajasthan deserts - livemint


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## Flintlock

BANGALORE: A nine-member delegation from Eurojet Turbo, leading European military aero-engine consortium, on Wednesday concluded a three-day &#8220;workshop&#8221; for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), on the feasibility of their engine being used to power the underpowered Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

The workshop could be a precursor to the ADA &#8212; designers of the LCA &#8212; deciding on a new engine for the Tejas.

Eurojet, which is responsible for development, production, support, maintenance and sales of the new generation EJ200 engine, explained to officials from the ADA and the Air Force and Navy&#8217;s LCA project teams, how its engine could be adapted for the Tejas.

The workshop comes in the wake of an Air Force communication to the Ministry of Defence that the Tejas, with its present engine &#8212; the General Electric manufactured GE F404 IN20 &#8212; cannot meet air staff requirements. The Air Force&#8217;s reasons that the thrust (with afterburner) generated by the GE F404 IN20 &#8212; 85 kilo Newtons (kN) &#8212; is adequate for an aircraft of eight tonnes, but with the Tejas being overweight by nearly two tonnes it requires a much more powerful engine. The Air Force wants an engine that is capable of delivering a thrust of 100 kN.

Eurojet, which had made available sophisticated data on the EJ200 to the ADA, has offered to transfer all technology &#8212; including the key core technology &#8212; on the engine to India. The engine will eventually be manufactured in India. It also claims that the EJ200 meets the Tejas&#8217; technical requirements and very little modifications will be needed to house its engine. Though Eurojet is confident that its engine will be chosen by the ADA, it will have to beat the challenge from GE, which had made a preliminary presentation on the GE414.

Sources in the ADA said that while the EJ200, with a thrust of 90 kN, brings in the latest technology in combat aircraft engines and is lighter and smaller, the heavier GE414 is capable of producing more thrust (97.5 kN). But Eurojet officials said the EJ200, which is the only five-stage compression engine in the world today, has the potential to meet the Air Force&#8217;s requirement of 100 kN.

The workshop was also an indication that the ADA, after months of hedging, has accepted the Air Force&#8217;s contention that the Tejas in its present configuration is unacceptable.

The Hindu : National : Eurojet Turbo pitches for its engine for Tejas


----------



## ejaz007

Stealth Assasin,
According to the article you have posted HF-24 Marut has been declared a failure. If it was failure than why IAF inducted the plane in considerable numbers and it even saw combat action in 1971 war.
Can some one elaborate what is meant by failure of HF-24 Marut. Performance shortcomings is one thing but failure an alltogether different thing.


----------



## Flintlock

ejaz007 said:


> Stealth Assasin,
> According to the article you have posted HF-24 Marut has been declared a failure. If it was failure than why IAF inducted the plane in considerable numbers and it even saw combat action in 1971 war.
> Can some one elaborate what is meant by failure of HF-24 Marut. Performance shortcomings is one thing but failure an alltogether different thing.



Marut was a failure...it was never inducted in significant numbers....those that were inducted were more a face-saving measure than anything else.

IAF made up its numbers by buying Soviet aircraft.

On the other hand, it was the first attempt by HAL , so it kicked off the Aircraft industry in India.


----------



## ejaz007

This is surprising for me. I guess this fighter would be world's first failure that even saw combat action. I shall try to post the number of Maruts inducted in IAF but the numbers surely were in squadron strength perhaps if my memory serves me right 4 squadrons were inducted.
The major fault with Marut was that it was under powered and hence slow. In my view it was better attempt than even LCA considering that we are talking about 60's era.


----------



## Flintlock

ejaz007 said:


> This is surprising for me. I guess this fighter would be world's first failure that even saw combat action. I shall try to post the number of Maruts inducted in IAF but the numbers surely were in squadron strength perhaps if my memory serves me right 4 squadrons were inducted.
> The major fault with Marut was that it was under powered and hence slow. In my view it was better attempt than even LCA considering that we are talking about 60's era.



Yeah, it was underpowered so it couldn't reach sufficient airspeed. 

The fighters were airworthy, but they couldn't match up with American or Soviet ones.


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

*Tejas' hot weather trial successful ​*
NAGPUR: The much-awaited hot weather trial phase of prestigious Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme went off successful between Bangalore and Nagpur, defence sources said on Friday. 

The progarmme got underway yesterday with a flawless ferry flight of prototype vehicle-3(PV-3) and this was the first operation ferry flight of Tejas with external drop tanks which are intended to enhance the range/radius of action of aircraft, a defence release said. 

In the event, the fuel system functioned perfectly, paving the way for more such long range ferry flight and out station trials. The LCA was ferried from Bangalore to Nagpur in about an hour's flying time and reached the destination with more than adequate fuel. 

Over the next one week, the aircraft would be subjected to hot soaks on the ground followed by representative flight profiles at low and medium attitudes to check proper functioning of all on board systems under conditions of extreme heat which prevails in Nagpur. 

The successful completion of these trials would thus mark a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearance (IOC) and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the Indian Air Force, the release added. 

Tejas' hot weather trial successful-India-The Times of India


----------



## Flintlock

*Tejas to be launched by 2010*

Posted at Friday, 30 May 2008 17:05 IST 
Chennai, May 30: Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft being developed by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), is in the final stages of testing and expected to be launched by 2010, the organisation's Chief Controller W Selvaraj said today.

"It is in the final stages of testing and by 2010 it is expected to be launched," he said here while speaking at a review meeting of the DRDO Anna University and Sri Ramachandra University which jointly collaborated to set up an R&D Centre in Medical Technology.

"After LCAs are launched, the MiG-21 fighters will be gradually phased out," the Chief Controller said.

The Defence Ministry has allotted Rs 105,600 crore as the annual budget and out of that, six per cent has been allotted to DRDO, he said. From the allotted six per cent (around Rs 6,000 crore) 35 per cent goes to strategic defence, 15 per cent goes to human resource department of DRDO, 15 per cent goes to equipment and maintenance while the remaining 35 per cent goes to R&D, he said.

News From Sahara Samay:: Tejas to be launched by 2010


----------



## nitesh

The Hindu News Update Service

*Light combat aircraft hot weather trial successful*

Nagpur (PTI): The much-awaited hot weather trial phase of prestigious Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme went off successful between Bangalore and Nagpur, defence sources said on Friday.

The progarmme got underway on Thursday with a flawless ferry flight of prototype vehicle-3(PV-3) and this was the first operation ferry flight of Tejas with external drop tanks which are intended to enhance the range/radius of action of aircraft, a defence release said.

In the event, the fuel system functioned perfectly, paving the way for more such long range ferry flight and out station trials. The LCA was ferried from Bangalore to Nagpur in about an hour's flying time and reached the destination with more than adequate fuel.

Over the next one week, the aircraft would be subjected to hot soaks on the ground followed by representative flight profiles at low and medium attitudes to check proper functioning of all on board systems under conditions of extreme heat which prevails in Nagpur.

The successful completion of these trials would thus mark a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearence(IOC)and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the Indian Air Force, the release added.


----------



## nitesh

Radar-fitted Tejas this year-Nagpur-Cities-The Times of India

Radar-fitted Tejas this year

1 Jun 2008, 0454 hrs IST,Shishir Arya,TNN

NAGPUR: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is producing the indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas, will soon be coming with a new radar-fitted version of this fighter aircraft. 

Currently in the production stage, the radar-fitted Tejas is expected to roll out this year itself, say sources. So far, the HAL has developed five prototypes and two technology demonstrators of the aircraft. This is now being followed by the limited series production (LSP). A prototype is similar to a laboratory version while and LSP comes straight from the production lines in the factory. Making LSPs is the next stage in aircraft production. 

At present, the first under the LSP series, LSP-1, has already rolled out and LSP-2 is expected to be flying within less than a month. LSP-3 is expected to come out within this year and would be fitted with the radar mechanism. The radar will help in making precise hits. 

"With a radar, the pilot can identify the target with more accuracy and also determine the range before it hits. Moreover, the present aircraft have already been fitted with laser-powered pods (LDPs) to drop bombs with accuracy," said a source. This makes it among one of the best aircraft of its kind in the world, added the source. 

Tejas, which is being built jointly by HAL and Aeronautics Development Agency - an arm of the defence research and development organisation (DRDO) - is in Nagpur since two days. The prototype aircraft, PV-3, was flown from Bangalore on Thursday while the PV-2 was flown on Saturday. 

The prototypes are undergoing various tests before aircraft of the final make is inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF). This will be followed by tests on LSPs, after which Tejas will get the much awaited initial operational clearance (IOC) followed by a final operational clearance. Once the configuration is finalised, regular production would begin. 

There are plans to make eight aircraft in the LSP series which will also undergo certain tests too, and the final version to be used by the IAF will be based on the LSPs. Tejas is expected to be inducted into the IAF by 2010.


----------



## TALWAR

It looks like LCA will be much more formiddable fighter than jf-17, when launched.

Few comparisons:


LCA

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 
Engine 80Kn
Hard points 9 
Empty weight: 5,000 kg (11,200 lb) 
Loaded weight: 12,500 kg (29,700 lb) 
Max takeoff weight: >15,500 kg (>32,558 lb) 
Thrust/weight: 1.07 


jf-17

Maximum speed: Mach 1.6
jf-17-50kn
Hard points-7
Empty weight: 6,441 kg [42] (14,200 lb) 
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb) 
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb) 
Thrust/weight: 0.95

All this despite JF-17 being the frontline fighter of PAF, and LCA is just to replace Mig-21. Su-30MKI and MRCA will be the frontline fighters of IAF.

Its time to compete with China. Pakistan is just way to behind. 
Its the beginning of a new era.


----------



## nitesh

TALWAR said:


> It looks like LCA will be much more formiddable fighter than jf-17, when launched.
> 
> Few comparisons:
> 
> 
> LCA
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
> Engine 80Kn
> Hard points 9
> Empty weight: 5,000 kg (11,200 lb)
> Loaded weight: 12,500 kg (29,700 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: >15,500 kg (>32,558 lb)
> Thrust/weight: 1.07
> 
> 
> jf-17
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.6
> jf-17-50kn
> Hard points-7
> Empty weight: 6,441 kg [42] (14,200 lb)
> Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95
> 
> All this despite JF-17 being the frontline fighter of PAF, and LCA is just to replace Mig-21. Su-30MKI and MRCA will be the frontline fighters of IAF.
> 
> Its time to compete with China. Pakistan is just way to behind.
> Its the beginning of a new era.



Hey nice info, can you please provide the link also from where you got these points


----------



## TALWAR

nitesh said:


> Hey nice info, can you please provide the link also from where you got these points



Wikipedia, and some googling.
If you have been tracking LCA and JF-17 for some time, you will know which site is right and which is wrong.


----------



## blain2

TALWAR said:


> It looks like LCA will be much more formiddable fighter than jf-17, when launched.
> 
> Few comparisons:
> 
> 
> LCA
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
> Engine 80Kn
> Hard points 9
> Empty weight: 5,000 kg (11,200 lb)
> Loaded weight: 12,500 kg (29,700 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: >15,500 kg (>32,558 lb)
> Thrust/weight: 1.07
> 
> 
> jf-17
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.6
> jf-17-50kn
> Hard points-7
> Empty weight: 6,441 kg [42] (14,200 lb)
> Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95
> 
> All this despite JF-17 being the frontline fighter of PAF, and LCA is just to replace Mig-21. Su-30MKI and MRCA will be the frontline fighters of IAF.
> 
> Its time to compete with China. Pakistan is just way to behind.
> Its the beginning of a new era.



Lets talk when LCA gets IOC and induction starts. Comparing values and those too from open sources is not a real comparison. 

Secondly, JF-17 will be the backbone and not the hi-tech edge of the PAF. It is meant to replace Mirages, F-7s and A-5s in PAF service, very similar to what your mighty LCA is for.

As far as competing, why was Pakistan even in the picture? India is 10x Pakistan in every metric you look at...rather shameful to be comparing the 800 lbs gorilla in the neighborhood with a smaller neighbor. Had India's focus been on China, US and EU, it would have made much greater progress by now.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Talwar:

The RD-33 (basic) has a thrust of 50 KN and a afterburner thrust of 81KN - pretty close to that of the LCA.

The JF-17 is also not the "frontline fighter" of the PAF - that role will continue to be filled by the F-16's and J-10's.

But India is welcome to compete with whomever,and believe whatever.


----------



## Imran Khan

wikipedia is not a good info place man


----------



## Energon

Weren't they looking for another engine since the GE F404 wasn't powerful enough? If that is the case, would the ambient temp trials have to be repeated to see how the new engine holds up?


----------



## EagleEyes

Most of the specifications provided above are of the old prototypes. Even the speed has exceeded to more than Mach 1.8. Plus.. the specifications take no consideration to the inclusion of DSI and the other design changes.


----------



## Keysersoze

TALWAR said:


> Wikipedia, and some googling.
> If you have been tracking LCA and JF-17 for some time, you will know which site is right and which is wrong.



Yup well heres some more of interest to you.....

Number of LCA's ordered by the IAF 20 + 20.......WOW!!!!!! After all those years of toil and stress they have ordered 20 with a follow on order of 20!!!!!!


----------



## Keysersoze

Questions over Tejas induction

Ravi Sharma

Data indicates that the LCA will not be able to meet Air Staff Requirements

Bangalore: With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircrafts long term induction into the squadron service.

Not willing to be presented with a fait accompli at a later date, the IAFs clear message is that as the end user it must be given what it wants and what was repeatedly promised to it; and an underpowered Tejas, which has also seen an increase in its basic all up weight, would not meet their requirements.

The IAF has communicated that the Tejas performance, both in terms of thrust and its airframe qualities, was still a long way from what was desirable. While the IAF had placed a firm order for 20 of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) designed and developed Tejas, it has been assumed that the IAF would eventually buy over 200 of the aircraft.

Designed to have capabilities that fit it into the lower end of the combat aircraft spectrum, the Tejas was developed with the intention of replacing the MiG-21s, the ageing warhorse of the IAF which were inducted over 40 years ago and are of a design technology that has long been surpassed.

The Tejas, as per the IAF drawn up ASR, had to be much, much better than the MiG-21s. Though the fly-by-wire Tejas has its plus points, data, including from the aircrafts recent low altitude tests at INS Rajali in Arakonam, showed that this might not be possible with the present configuration.

An Air Force officer said: We have been given a mandate by the government and with this in mind drawn up an ASR. It has to be met. There is no point in the ADA pressuring us to accept a lower ASR at this stage. For years, at every meeting, the ADA has been saying that the Tejas will comply with the ASR.

The Tejas, which has so far completed almost 800 test flights, is now powered by the General Electric manufactured GE F404 engine, which will eventually be replaced by the long-delayed Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) designed and developed Kaveri.

Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify.
Issues over thrust

But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes. But this could further increase its all up weight.
Equal partners

Even as the IAF is unhappy with the Tejas performance, it is insisting that they are equal partners in the over Rs. 5,500 crore programme. The ADA can work on a derivative of the Tejas. This is what aircraft design and development is all about. You cant just thrust the first product down the customers throat. 

The Hindu : National : Questions over Tejas&#8217; induction


----------



## Keysersoze

At the end of the day the plane was supposed to have been inducted in 2006 and its not here yet. The LSP only flew last year!!!! Last time I checked The fellows across the border are starting induction of their "lower class" aircraft


----------



## TALWAR

Yes, Wikipedia is not always correct. But we can co-related with our knowledge about the product.

The IAF expressed its reservations about the thrust of the existing GE-F404 engines, after the weight of the plane went up from 8,000 kg to10,000 kg. The weight increase and other factors had contributed to the trial flight performances not coming up to IAFs expectations. 

GE404 produces 81 kN, but Air Staff Requirement is now close to 100kN.

GE F404 IN20  85 kilo Newtons (kN)
GE414  97.5 kN
EJ200  of 90 kN


----------



## TALWAR

Keysersoze said:


> Yup well heres some more of interest to you.....
> 
> Number of LCA's ordered by the IAF 20 + 20.......WOW!!!!!! After all those years of toil and stress they have ordered 20 with a follow on order of 20!!!!!!



Hey key, lets stop those childish smilies and discuss some technical stuff please.

Yes, how do you expect the IAF to order in huge numbers when aircraft is not fully Production version. The very fact that the order is 40 even before complete design shows the improvement in the aircraft.


----------



## TALWAR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Talwar:
> 
> The RD-33 (basic) has a thrust of 50 KN and a afterburner thrust of 81KN - pretty close to that of the LCA.
> 
> The JF-17 is also not the "frontline fighter" of the PAF - that role will continue to be filled by the F-16's and J-10's.
> 
> But India is welcome to compete with whomever,and believe whatever.



Do you say that F-16B is the frontline fighter- with only 12 of them. And with spares problem, we dont even know how many are operational at a given time.

Now dont tell me that F-16A are the frontline fighters too.

If there is a war in the next 6 months [say], which will be PAF's frontline fighter J-10 or the F-16 C/D ?


----------



## TALWAR

blain2 said:


> Lets talk when LCA gets IOC and induction starts. Comparing values and those too from open sources is not a real comparison.
> 
> Secondly, JF-17 will be the backbone and not the hi-tech edge of the PAF. It is meant to replace Mirages, F-7s and A-5s in PAF service, very similar to what your mighty LCA is for.
> 
> As far as competing, why was Pakistan even in the picture? India is 10x Pakistan in every metric you look at...rather shameful to be comparing the 800 lbs gorilla in the neighborhood with a smaller neighbor. Had India's focus been on China, US and EU, it would have made much greater progress by now.



India is 4 times larger than pakistan in size, if thats what you mean. But its 7 times more bigger in economy. Does that answer your question ?

Btw, technological development has nothing to do with size of the country. If you take it that way, then what do you say about Japan vs Brazil. India is compared with Pak because they both received the freedom in same time and have same history and geographical location.


----------



## Keysersoze

TALWAR said:


> Hey key, lets stop those childish smilies and discuss some technical stuff please.
> 
> Yes, how do you expect the IAF to order in huge numbers when aircraft is not fully Production version. The very fact that the order is 40 even before complete design shows the improvement in the aircraft.



Well I would suggest that the IAF has been told to Support the DRDO's efforts and therefore has been told to make the purchase. And considering the number of planes required Its a small order. And excuses such as "It's not in production yet" do not wash, as they would have had the performance of the prototypes to go by. The simple fact is that the plane does not meet requirements.

Since you wanna talk technical stuff please explain to me how a cranked arrow wing set up is going to overcome the inherent problems with delta wing?

Please take a look at the picture at this link
Imagev3 tip.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now please show me the hardpoints you referred to. If you look at the size of the SRAAM's on the wing, now tell me the aerodynamic effects of whacking another 7 missiles on that airframe.


----------



## blain2

TALWAR said:


> Do you say that F-16B is the frontline fighter- with only 12 of them. And with spares problem, we dont even know how many are operational at a given time.
> 
> Now dont tell me that F-16A are the frontline fighters too.
> 
> If there is a war in the next 6 months [say], which will be PAF's frontline fighter J-10 or the F-16 C/D ?



F-16B is the same thing as F-16A. B has a training role but is fully combat capable. Currently PAF has 34 fully combat capable F-16s in service. 2 are in the US for MLU. Spares are not an issue.

F-16A in the Indo-Pakistan scenario is very much a front-line aircraft. Pakistani F-16s have better avionics than anything aside from the 20 year younger MKIs in the IAF service. 

As far as the war in 6 months is concerned, PAF would go into war with whatever it has at its disposal. They obviously would not be waiting for J-10s or F-16s to arrive. Mirages, F-7s, F-16s would have to do in case of a war.


----------



## blain2

TALWAR said:


> India is 4 times larger than pakistan in size, if thats what you mean. But its 7 times more bigger in economy. Does that answer your question ?
> 
> Btw, technological development has nothing to do with size of the country. If you take it that way, then what do you say about Japan vs Brazil. India is compared with Pak because they both received the freedom in same time and have same history and geographical location.



By 10x, I am not quoting specific factors. Just using it to give you an idea. You quote size and then economy, how about quoting the difference in population for starters?? Why not compare the size of India's economy with that of China (with similar population dynamics)?

I am not talking about technological development here as a measure either when 800 million in India and 120 million in Pakistan don't have access to clean water. There are other more basic factors which India and Pakistan have to take care of.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

TALWAR said:


> Do you say that F-16B is the frontline fighter- with only 12 of them. And with spares problem, we dont even know how many are operational at a given time.
> 
> Now dont tell me that F-16A are the frontline fighters too.
> 
> If there is a war in the next 6 months [say], which will be PAF's frontline fighter J-10 or the F-16 C/D ?



..

lets say if their is a war in 6 months.. no problem bring it onn!
In next 24 hour... we will see 2 sqd or F-15 from KSA, from rest of middle east we can pull out some Mirage-2000 and how can i forget our good old fello China.. J-11 J-10 are not a problem... so your penny worth question is answered.. and ohh please dont tell me Russia is going to back the war with you guys because they only care about money not India.. 

your mighty MKI TVC engines are causing a lot of head ache as i have come to know that at least a squdron of MKI grounded due to heavy TVC maintenance...

And by the way which 12 F-16B are your talking about? or your think twin seater is more capable then a single seater and thus coming to conclusion that F-16B is our front line fighter lol... since 2003 every single of our 34 fleet of F-16 is fully operational and 24/7 combat ready!


----------



## blain2

23March,

Nobody is giving anything to Pakistan. Forget F-15s, M2Ks etc. etc. If history is anything to go by, our own assets are all that we have (F-7s, Mirages and F-16s) and they would have to do. You go to war with what you have operationalized and trained on...all "what ifs" are not included in the war calculus. PAF will play its role as will the PA and PN. Odds are stacked but as in the past, Pakistan will do what it must. For the sake of both countries, I hope there is no war.


----------



## TALWAR

blain2 said:


> Lets talk when LCA gets IOC and induction starts. Comparing values and those too from open sources is not a real comparison.
> 
> Secondly, JF-17 will be the backbone and not the hi-tech edge of the PAF. It is meant to replace Mirages, F-7s and A-5s in PAF service, very similar to what your mighty LCA is for.
> 
> As far as competing, why was Pakistan even in the picture? India is 10x Pakistan in every metric you look at...rather shameful to be comparing the 800 lbs gorilla in the neighborhood with a smaller neighbor. Had India's focus been on China, US and EU, it would have made much greater progress by now.



India is 4 times larger than pakistan in size, if thats what you mean. But its 7 times more bigger in economy. Does that answer your question ?

Btw, technological development has nothing to do with size of the country. If you take it that way, then what do you say about Japan vs Brazil. India is compared with Pak because they both received the freedom in same time and have same history and geographical location.

If that sense, China has fared very poorly when compared to Japan and Korea in terms or automobile and general appliances Industries.

Yes, India is years ahead of China in the IT sector. This is because IT sector needs less investment, and we had done our best in that. Now we have earned some money and are slowly moving towards Industries.

You would have heard about Jaguar-Landrover, Corus steel, Mittal steel, Mahindra, Ashok Leyland, Maruti..... Can you name one big name in Chinese industries which has huge operations outside of China ? They are more good at making toys and simple machines.


----------



## TALWAR

23march said:


> ..
> 
> lets say if their is a war in 6 months.. no problem bring it onn!
> In next 24 hour... we will see 2 sqd or F-15 from KSA, from rest of middle east we can pull out some Mirage-2000 and how can i forget our good old fello China.. J-11 J-10 are not a problem... so your penny worth question is answered.. and ohh please dont tell me Russia is going to back the war with you guys because they only care about money not India..
> 
> your mighty MKI TVC engines are causing a lot of head ache as i have come to know that at least a squdron of MKI grounded due to heavy TVC maintenance...
> 
> And by the way which 12 F-16B are your talking about? or your think twin seater is more capable then a single seater and thus coming to conclusion that F-16B is our front line fighter lol... since 2003 every single of our 34 fleet of F-16 is fully operational and 24/7 combat ready!



You have more faith in other countries than your own Nation.

Can you tell me the models of 34 F-16 's and how many of each pakistan has, and which ones are frontline fighters ?

...and a geniune source which says Su-30 MKI is grounded...

btw, do you even realize what 24 hours mean in a war ?


----------



## TALWAR

blain2 said:


> 23March,
> 
> Nobody is giving anything to Pakistan. Forget F-15s, M2Ks etc. etc. If history is anything to go by, our own assets are all that we have (F-7s, Mirages and F-16s) and they would have to do. You go to war with what you have operationalized and trained on...all "what ifs" are not included in the war calculus. PAF will play its role as will the PA and PN. Odds are stacked but as in the past, Pakistan will do what it must. For the sake of both countries, I hope there is no war.



Yes, nobody wants war in the Modern world. Just talking about a scenario, nobody konws what will happen.

My other question - which is Pakistans frontline fighter right now ? And when you say F-16 please mention the correct model also.


----------



## Keysersoze

TALWAR said:


> Yes, nobody wants war in the Modern world. Just talking about a scenario, nobody konws what will happen.
> 
> My other question - which is Pakistans frontline fighter right now ? And when you say F-16 please mention the correct model also.



What correct model would that be? Since all trainers are combat capable all versions would count.
There are the F-16's A/B's and the C's


----------



## TALWAR

Guys, when I speak about war, please dont take me wrongly. I do not want a war because I dont want people to be killed on either side and surely dont want to see an economic slowdown that will put us way behind the western countries.

I am just talking about the prepardness of the defence forces.


----------



## TALWAR

Keysersoze said:


> What correct model would that be? Since all trainers are combat capable all versions would count.
> There are the F-16's A/B's and the C's



key, please can you clarify.

Question: Is the F-16A spec same as F-16B ? not seater details but radar tracking capabilities, hard points, compatible missiles, top-speed...

I am going offline, will see your response tomorrow. 

Bye..


----------



## Myth_buster_1

TALWAR said:


> Yes, nobody wants war in the Modern world. Just talking about a scenario, nobody konws what will happen.
> 
> My other question - which is Pakistans frontline fighter right now ? And when you say F-16 please mention the correct model also.



dude A/B are same thing.. except twin seater is also used for training.. 
Spare parts are not a problem any more and pretty soon Block-15 will be given MLU and be just as good as block 52.. 
and by the way... in any war scenario not all IAF fighter fleet will be put on the front line to attack pakistan.. more or less as same number of PAF fighter fleet..


----------



## blain2

TALWAR said:


> My other question - which is Pakistans frontline fighter right now ? And when you say F-16 please mention the correct model also.



Every PAF aircraft is a frontline fighter. It just depends on what role its being used in. In certain cases, the Mirage is a better strike aircraft than even the F-16.

Overall, F-16 A/B blk 15 OCU is definitely the one true Multi-role platform for the PAF.
Mirage III (ROSE - Grifo M3) are also very decent interceptors (Radars in the same class as the blk 15 F-16s).
For day/night strike, ROSE II (FLIR) equipped Mirages are the key assets.
For point defence, F-7PGs and F-7Ps.


----------



## nitesh

» India to invite bids for indigenous LCA engines - Thaindian News

*India to invite bids for indigenous LCA engines*

June 4th, 2008 - 2:47 pm ICT by IANS - Email This Post


New Delhi, June 4 (IANS) India will soon invite bids for developing a more powerful engine for the homemade Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas as the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine is yet to be completed, an official said Wednesday. Tejas, meant to replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), is currently under development in Bangalore for the last couple of decades.

&#8220;A committee has been constituted and it is in talks with international players for developing a more powerful engine for Tejas. A RFP (request for proposal) in this regard will soon be issued,&#8221; an official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told IANS on condition of anonymity.

The Aeronautical Development Agency of the DRDO is developing the supersonic combat aircraft along with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

&#8220;Currently, two international companies are in the fray but the contract will be issued through due process and the company will be required to develop the engine under a joint venture with India,&#8221; the official told IANS.

*The IAF has placed an order for 20 Tejas lightweight multi-role planes, India&#8217;s second indigenous fighter aircraft, and is inclined to increase the number to 40.*

Earlier, it was planned that a turbofan engine, the GTX-35VS Kaveri, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), would be fitted to the production aircraft. But delays in development led to the purchase of General Electric engines, which even got through rough weather due to the sanction imposed post 1998 nuclear tests.

The IAF had expressed reservations about the GE engines as it increased the plane&#8217;s weight from 8,000 kg to 10,000 kg. This delayed the production of the aircraft and it will be ready for delivery only by 2011.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Well I would suggest that the IAF has been told to Support the DRDO's efforts and therefore has been told to make the purchase.



Interesting and this is what OOE had to say


> Quote:Originally Posted by Neo
> Sir,
> IAF drew the ASR and the concept of Tejas, what more could she have done?
> 
> OOE
> Same thing the Chinese did to you. Froze the specs and deliver as-is whether you liked it or not.





> And considering the number of planes required Its a small order. And excuses such as "It's not in production yet" do not wash,



Keys LCA has not even be tested with a radar and has not undergone full weaponisation and considering this 20+20 is a big order in the initial stages. The order is low in initial stages because the plane has not been fully developed and not because it is a design failure. Even PAF has ordered 50 J17 for the initial order since there is no clear idea as to future developments of the plane.

Cheers


----------



## Keysersoze

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Interesting and this is what OOE had to say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keys LCA has not even be tested with a radar and has not undergone full weaponisation and considering this 20+20 is a big order in the initial stages. The order is low in initial stages because the plane has not been fully developed and not because it is a design failure. Even PAF has ordered 50 J17 for the initial order since there is no clear idea as to future developments of the plane.
> 
> Cheers



Dude There is a clear difference between the two orders. there has been a statement that there will be a order of 250 in two blocks. With additional improvements in airframe,engine and avionics in BLK 2, SO whilst weaponisation of the second blk has not yet gone through there will be a definite purchase.

Incidentally What OOe is referring to (as far as I am concerned) is something called "feature creep". If you leave the options constantly open they will creep as the IAF decides it wants the newest toys available. Thus the plane is still not here yet.

Now tell me how much confidence does the IAF have, to only order 20 aircraft with the option of 20 more? Weaponisation or not they are obviously not overwhelmed with the airframe (avionics and weapons can be changed later if needed)


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## nitesh

outlookindia.com | wired

Already running 10 years behind schedule, the country's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft Tejas would be carrying only "limited weaponry" when they get ready by 2012. 

As the first of these indigenous fighters strive for initial operational clearance in 2010, experts have come up with sudden complications that Tejas' US aeroengine GE404 does not have requisite thrust to give it power to carry its full load of weaponry, highly-placed sources said. 

Tejas, on induction, were slated to be armed with air-to-air beyond visual range missiles, air-to-ground missiles and full complement of heavy and medium precision and cluster bombs. 

But during the recent weaponisation of the fighters, experts have found out that Tejas, with the present engines, cannot carry its full load of armaments including *crucial missiles. *

"LCA's present GE404 engines give a thrust of only 80-85 kilo newtons, while the weapon payload of the fighter needs a thrust of 95-100 kilo newtons," a source said, indicating the initial 40 Tejas fighters of the IAF, when inducted, would only be "weaponised to a limited role". 

India's defence planners have already started negotiations with US company General Electric, Snecma of France, Rolls Royce of UK, European defence consortium EADS and Russian NPS-Saturn on "co-development" or "technology transfer" of a more powerful aeroengine for Tejas. 

"As things stand, there is no way that the initial batch of Tejas fighters would be powered by any other engine than GE404," the source said. 

Under an agreement signed with Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), the first 40 LCA fighters are to be powered by GE404. 

The American company makes more powerful GE414 engines, which power the US Air Force's mainstay F-16 fighting falcons, the European consortium also makes EZ-200 engines for the Eurofighters. 

Other companies who have the capability to make such engines are Rolls Royce, Snecma and NPS-Saturn. 

*But the official said that future Tejas fighters would be fitted with more powerful engines to give them capability to carry full complement of strategic weapons. 
*

Sources said the final clearance for the Tejas would come by 2012 and Air Force would be in a position to operate LCA squadrons by 2015-16.

I had made some points in BOLD now what is "crucial missiles" and "strategic weapons". Can some body please elaborate.


----------



## Keysersoze

Hmmm well crucial and strategic missiles can have so many meanings depending upon context. I would assume they would mean longer range missiles such as AMRAAM type missiles.
Strategic could possibly mean heavier munitions such as bombs


----------



## vish

Guys, we are actually drawing conclusions from Indian media reports pertaining to defense matters; a big no-no.

The LCA has evolved from a point-defense fighter to a light multi-role combat aircraft, much akin to mini-MRCA. This is what the IAF wants; they want the LCA to be more than just a point-defense fighter. The DRDO, HAL, ADA, etc, are having a hard time adjusting to these design modifications. Though there are goof-ups, be rest assured that when the LCA (with better engines) does get inducted, it will be more than capable of holding its own.


----------



## nitesh

IndianExpress.com :: LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
Express News Service
Posted online: Friday, June 06, 2008 at 2222 hrs

New Delhi, June 5: The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine&#8212;instead of the Kaveri engine&#8212;to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.

In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted &#8216;angle of attack&#8217;, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.
The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. &#8220;There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,&#8221; a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack &#8212; a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft&#8212;to 17 degrees against the IAF&#8217;s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes.
With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such &#8216;limited&#8217; fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. &#8220;To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,&#8221; the source said.
However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.


----------



## Flintlock

*Tejas Hot-weather trials*


----------



## Flintlock




----------



## nitesh

News From Sahara Samay:: Tejas' hot weather trial successful

'Tejas' hot weather trial successful

Posted at Friday, 06 June 2008 09:06 IST
Bangalore, June 6: Hot weather flight trials of India's light combat aircraft Tejas were conducted successfully at Air Force Station in Nagpur.

The trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period, a DRDO release said here.

The aim of the trials was to test operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 degree Celsius and the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in after its induction into the Indian Air Force.

A composite team of members from IAF (AF), ADA, HAL, CEMILAC, DGAQA, with support from Air Force Station, Nagpur and Maintenance Command, IAF, conducted the trials, the release said.

A total of seven flights amounting to four hours were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft, PV2 and PV3.

The tests included flights at 200 metres above ground and speeds up to 1,000 km per hour after 'hot soaking' the aircraft on tarmac for two to four hours, where the aircraft skin temperature reached values in excess of 70 degree Celsius.

The test flights were monitored in real time using a mobile telemetry station of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), positioned at Nagpur for this purpose.

This was the first time that the Tejas aircraft had flown to a distance of about 1,000 km from Bangalore non-stop at such high ambient temperature conditions.

The aircraft is next planned for operations over the deserts of Rajasthan, delivering precision guided bombs, later this year, it said.


----------



## Flintlock

nitesh said:


> News From Sahara Samay:: Tejas' hot weather trial successful
> 
> 'Tejas' hot weather trial successful
> 
> Posted at Friday, 06 June 2008 09:06 IST
> Bangalore, June 6: Hot weather flight trials of India's light combat aircraft Tejas were conducted successfully at Air Force Station in Nagpur.
> 
> The trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period, a DRDO release said here.
> 
> The aim of the trials was to test operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 degree Celsius and the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in after its induction into the Indian Air Force.
> 
> A composite team of members from IAF (AF), ADA, HAL, CEMILAC, DGAQA, with support from Air Force Station, Nagpur and Maintenance Command, IAF, conducted the trials, the release said.
> 
> A total of seven flights amounting to four hours were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft, PV2 and PV3.
> 
> The tests included flights at 200 metres above ground and speeds up to 1,000 km per hour after 'hot soaking' the aircraft on tarmac for two to four hours, where the aircraft skin temperature reached values in excess of 70 degree Celsius.
> 
> The test flights were monitored in real time using a mobile telemetry station of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), positioned at Nagpur for this purpose.
> 
> This was the first time that the Tejas aircraft had flown to a distance of about 1,000 km from Bangalore non-stop at such high ambient temperature conditions.
> 
> The aircraft is next planned for operations over the deserts of Rajasthan, delivering precision guided bombs, later this year, it said.



Dude this news story has been posted twice already.


----------



## Khalsa

Tejas to have only limited weaponry?



Press Trust of India
NEW DELHI, June 5: Already running 10 years behind schedule, the country's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft Tejas would be carrying only &#8220;limited weaponry&#8221; when they get ready by 2012.
As the first of these indigenous fighters strive for initial operational clearance in 2010, experts have come up with sudden complications that Tejas' US aeroengine GE404 does not have requisite thrust to give it power to carry its full load of weaponry, highly-placed sources said.
Tejas, on induction, were slated to be armed with air-to-air beyond visual range missiles, air-to-ground missiles and full complement of heavy and medium precision and cluster bombs.
But during the recent weaponisation of the fighters, experts have found out that Tejas, with the present engines, cannot carry its full load of armaments including crucial missiles.
&#8220;LCA's present GE404 engines give a thrust of only 80-85 kilo newtons, while the weapon payload of the fighter needs a thrust of 95-100 kilo newtons,&#8221; a source said, indicating the initial 40 Tejas fighters of the IAF, when inducted, would only be &#8220;weaponised to a limited role&#8221;.
India's defence planners have already started negotiations with US company General Electric, Snecma of France, Rolls Royce of UK, European defence consortium EADS and Russian NPS-Saturn on &#8220;co-development&#8221; or &#8220;technology transfer&#8221; of a more powerful aeroengine for Tejas. 
&#8220;As things stand, there is no way that the initial batch of Tejas fighters would be powered by any other engine than GE404,&#8221; the source said.
Under an agreement signed with Aeronautical Development Estabilishment (ADE), the first 40 LCA fighters are to be powered by GE404.
The American company makes more powerful GE414 engines, which power the US Air Force's mainstay F-16 Fighting Falcons, the European consortium also makes EZ-200 engines for the Eurofighters.
Other companies who have the capability to make such engines are Rolls Royce, Snecma and NPS-Saturn.
But the official said that future Tejas fighters would be fitted with more powerful engines to give them capability to carry full complement of strategic weapons.


----------



## Mohammed Azizuddin

NEW DELHI: The first batch of light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas would carry limited weaponry because of engine power limitations, said highly placed Defence Ministry sources.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for 20 LCAs and agreed in principle to take another 20.

There is no way you can have any other engine for the first 40 LCAs, said the sources. The LCA was undergoing tests fitted with the American GE-404 engine with a capacity of 80 to 85 kilo newtons (kn).

The IAF, on the other hand, wanted the capacity to be 95-100 kn, the same as the ones powering the F-16 fighters. If we buy a more powerful engine, the aircraft structure will have to be completely changed. This will not be possible with the initial lot, the sources said.

The initial operational clearance is slated for 2010 end but besides the engine issue, the LCA is facing problems on two other fronts  the angle of attack and the landing gear. While the angle of attack achieved by LCA is 17 degrees, the IAF wants it to be 21.

In order to fit a more powerful engine in the future, the government is considering both direct import and co-development options. In case the import route is preferred, the contenders will be General Electrics GE-414 and the European EZ 200. The IAF has indicated its preference for the former.

For co-development, the choice will be between Snecma of France and the Russian NPO Saturn.

Source:The Hindu : National : LCA dogged by engine power limitations


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aziz,

Merged your thread. 

All LCA news and discussion goes here, unless there is some earth shattering development.


----------



## Joodi

UFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF, again those sub powered and engine delays stories. Bhagwan gee help ADA and HAL. This new ADA child (LCA) is too late (12 yrs late) and too old even before birth.


----------



## nitesh

Joodi said:


> UFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF, again those sub powered and engine delays stories. Bhagwan gee help ADA and HAL. This new ADA child (LCA) is too late (12 yrs late) and too old even before birth.



check this, empty weight of the much large typhoon is 11 tons and F16 later blocks around 9tons 

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

how is indian media claiming the weight of Tejas is 10 tons now ? is it 
loaded weight i.e. with full internal fuel ? or mtow with full fuel & weapons? 

IAF is doing mission-creepitis trying to make a day1 MRCA out of it. 

imo for A2A: 
internal radar + 2 wing tanks + 4 BVR missiles + 2 wvr is adequate + 
60-100% internal fuel. 

for A2G: 
80-100% internal fuel + Litening + 2 x 1000lb LGB / 4 x 500lb LGB / 6 x 500lb unguided bombs + internal cannon should work fine in CAS/BAI 

they seem to want turn performance of a F-16-block15 , climb rates of a 
stripped down Mig31, acceleration of a F22 , wing loading of a piper moth, 
cost of a Mig21FL and payload of a F15E with ECM of a F15I 
all shoehorned into Tejas !

This is just to give the examples that most of the reports that are coming in media are from some *"unnamed sources"*. Whereas reports of successful trials are from official sources. Now you are free to come to conclusion


----------



## shehbazi2001

TALWAR said:


> key, please can you clarify.
> 
> Question: Is the F-16A spec same as F-16B ? not seater details but radar tracking capabilities, hard points, compatible missiles, top-speed...
> 
> I am going offline, will see your response tomorrow.
> 
> Bye..




Radar tracking capabilities are the same if radar is the same and radar is the same in F-16A and B. Missile compatibility is same at least in PAF (Sidewinder).

Capability to carry Sparrow or Amraam depends on structural strength (pylon rating), wiring, software and radar. After Block 10, F-16s are qualified for Sparrow/Amraam. Wiring and software are just export-related regulations for USA. 

You asked this question perhaps because the Mig-29's two-seater does not carry a radar and its clear from the smaller nose of Mig-29UB as compared to single-seat Mig-29. 

That blind two-seater IAF Mig-29 can be an easy victims for PAF if there is a war in 6 months (no AWACS) as you said. 

F-16B carries 17% less fuel than A and obviously range/endurance decreases a little.

Top speed figures are usually achieved in dive and they are said to be not sustained speeds. Speed may get affected due to change in external shape, even if the engine is the same. 

References: Air Vectors on Greg Goebel / In The Public Domain (an excellent site on fighters)


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## x_man

Shabazi is right .there is absolute no difference between F-16 A/B operationallyB has the same radar and same choice of weapons as A modelJust off the record, the F-16 that shot the Indian Seeker II UAV in 2002 was also a *B model*.


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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : Move to seek Boeing help for LCA test programme

Move to seek Boeing help for LCA test programme

Ravi Sharma

The consultancy will need the clearance of the U.S. Department of State
It will help curtail number of sorties during flight test

It will shorten design, development phase of LCA

BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has moved forward to sign up with American aerospace major Boeing for consultancy on their Tejas Light Combat Aircraft&#8217;s (LCA) flight test programme. The tie-up suggests that the Bangalore based Indian defence laboratory is unable to, within the required time span, complete the testing on its own.

The tie-up which as per the United States laws concerning sale/consultancy of services and products in areas of defence will first have to be cleared by the U.S. Department of State. It is envisaged that the multi million dollar consultancy will shorten the design and development phase of the LCA.

The ADA sources told The Hindu that that the consultancy would help curtail the number of sorties that were to be flown in each phase of the LCA&#8217;s flight testing as the ADA attempts to obtain initial operational clearance (IOC) for the aircraft. The ADA&#8217;s latest revised schedule speaks of a 2010 deadline for the IOC.

The Boeing, with sufficient experience on flight test programmes like their F-18 Hornet, will provide the ADA with crucial inputs on which critical points of the flying envelope flight tests would have to be conducted.

This would avoid unnecessary flights and testing out every point of the flight envelope, saving on both costs, and even more importantly, time, enabling the ADA to compress the LCA&#8217;s flight test programme.

Under the agreement flight test data generated during flights undertaken by the Indian Air Force pilots attached to the National Flight Test Centre, would be handed over to the Boeing engineers for analysis. The Boeing would then advise the ADA what should be done, they said.

The consultancy is for a period of 42 months, with the option for the ADA to extend it if they need to.

The ADA over two years ago sent out a request for proposal to a number of global aerospace players including the Boeing, the Lockheed Martin, the Dassault and the Saab Gripen seeking this consultancy.

Official sources also said that the ADA had sought proposals from the Boeing and other aerospace players for help on the naval variant of the Tejas.


----------



## nitesh

*LCA thrust issues, all is open people are free to draw conclusions*

All this talk about lack of thrust on Tejas got me thinking. So here is my analysis of LCA thrust. 

ANALYSIS OF LCA/TEJAS THRUST WITH GE-404-IN20 ENGINE 

INTRODUCTION 

There has been number of articles appearing in media alluding to insufficient thrust in first lot of LCA/Tejas production aircraft with GE-404-IN20 engine. Most of these articles seem to reproduce misinformation spread by vested interests of import lobby. The objective of this analysis is to show that the first lot LCA/Tejas will be a very potent aircraft in terms of combat speed. We will use two other aircrafts for comparison to show this: Gripen C and Mirage 2000. The aircrafts were chosen because Gripen C is a contemporary light weight aircraft like LCA/Tejas, while Mirage 2000 was the gold standard used by IAF in specifying requirements for LCA/Tejas, though Mirage 2000 is a medium weight aircraft. We will use original manufacturer specification references as much as possible to prove our objective. 

ANALYSIS 

Per latest (2008) ADA specs [1], LCA/Tejas has an increased empty weight of 6500Kg and clean take off weight with 3000Kg of internal fuel, of 9500Kg. It can carry more than 4000Kg of external stores, but we will use 4000Kg for this analysis. The total weight is therefore equal to 13500Kg. GE-404-IN20 engine can develop maximum after burner thrust of 19000lb at sea level [2]. Though installed thrust in aircraft is not same as engine thrust, we will ignore it for this simple analysis. LCA/Tejas thrust to weight ratio at total weight is therefore 19000/(2.2*13500) ~= 0.6397. 

Per Gripen specs [3], it has an empty weight of 6800Kg. Though Gripen C cannot carry 3000Kg of internal fuel, we will use 3000Kg of internal fuel for apples to apples comparison. We will also assume 4000Kg of external stores. The total weight is therefore equal to 13800Kg. Volvo Aero RM12 engine of Gripen C can develop a maximum after burner thrust of 18100lb [4]. Gripen C thrust to weight ratio at total weight is therefore 18100/(2.2*13800) ~= 0.5962. 

Per Mirage 2000 specs [5], it has an empty weight of 7600Kg. We will assume 3000Kg of internal fuel and 4000Kg of external stores for an apples to apples comparison. The total weight is therefore equal to 14600Kg. M53-P2 engine of Mirage 2000 can develop a maximum after thrust of 21400lb [6]. Mirage 2000 thrust to weight ratio at total weight is therefore 21400/(2.2*14600) ~= 0.6663. 

CONCLUSION 

As can be seen LCA/Tejas will have better thrust to weight ratio than Gripen C which belongs to same light weight class. LCA/Tejas will have a thrust to weight ratio that is close to Mirage 2000. If the weight of LCA/Tejas can be reduced by 550Kg or alternately if the external stores is reduced by 550Kg, LCA/Tejas will have same thrust to 
weight ratio as Mirage 2000, a medium weight aircraft. This shortage of performance, if it can be called as such, isn't bad considering it is just first production lot. One can also repeat this analysis for other internal fuel weights and external stores, but the results won't be dramatically different. Hence it can be concluded that first lot LCA/Tejas will be a very potent aircraft in terms of combat speed. 


REFERENCES 

1. LCA Infoboard on Flickr - Photo Sharing! 
2. http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/4475-1/GE-engine-info.pdf 
3. http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/...A8C97CE11104/0/Gripen_Seeing_is_believing.pdf 
4. RM12 : Volvo Aero - Volvo Aero Global 
5. http://www.airramstein.nato.int/bold_avenger07_factsheet_mirage2000.pdf 
6. http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/M53-P2_Anglais.pdf


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## QuickSilver

Some interesting article for you guys.. have a look
ImageShack - Hosting :: lcabl7.jpg


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## Khalsa

India to launch Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by 2010

India to launch Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by 2010

NEW DELHI, June 8 (KUNA) -- In an effort to add firepower to its Air Force, Indias is developing -- Tejas-- a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to be launched by 2010. LCA was in the final stages of testing and by 2010 it was expected to be launched, a source in the Indian Defene Ministry told KUNA here Sunday. After LCAs are launched, the MiG-21 fighter jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) would be gradually phased out, the source added. Tejas is being developed by Indias Defence Research Development Organisation. Tejas underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station in the Western Indian city of Nagpur recently, the source said, adding, the trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period. The aim of the trials was to check operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 deg C, representative of the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in, after induction into the IAF.

"All aircraft systems, specifically the avionics system, flight control system and air conditioning system of Tejas were tested extensively during the trials and functioned satisfactorily on ground as well in flight," the source said, adding, a total of seven flights of four hours duration were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft PV2 and PV3. The tests included flights at 200 meters above the ground with a speed up to 1000 km per hour.

"It was the first time that the Tejas flew a non-stop distance of about 1, 000 km from Southern Indian city of Bangalore to Nagpur. This was possible due to the presence of external fuel tanks on the aircraft which were integrated recently. This was also the first time that the Tejas aircraft had been flown at such high ambient temperature conditions. A first look at the test data indicated that all the trial objectives were met satisfactorily," the source informed. The successful completion of the trial marked a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearance and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the IAF. Tejas is now planned for delivering precision guided bombs in the deserts of Western Indian state of Rajasthan, later this year.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Officially the longest time consuming project in history of aviation.
So finally it will be reveled after 25 years?


----------



## BATMAN

Khalsa said:


> India to launch Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by 2010
> 
> India to launch Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by 2010



Where is the link Sardar jee and what exactly you understand with 'launch'
Will it be launched like Arjun?


----------



## Keysersoze

BATMAN said:


> Where is the link Sardar jee and what exactly you understand with 'launch'
> Will it be launched like Arjun?



WHo knows maybe they have a giant catapult. They have had a few engine problems 

Seriously though, I would disregard this "promise", heard too many of them in the past.


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## Khalsa

BATMAN said:


> Where is the link Sardar jee and what exactly you understand with 'launch'
> Will it be launched like Arjun?



Sorry brother, here is the link.

http://www.khabrein.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14705&Itemid=88


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## zeus

FROM FORCE

&#8216;The First AWACS Expected in October will be Based in Agra&#8217;

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major PVSM AVSM SC VM ADC


What is the update on Indian Air Force&#8217;s activities on the eastern front against China?

Over the years, due to a paucity of resources, infrastructure in our Eastern parts has undergone a bit of a decline. We have now decided to beef up our assets and more importantly the infrastructure in the Eastern sector, in the 11th (2007-2012) and 12th (2012-2017) Defence Plans. We intend modernising our airbases to make them capable of undertaking operations of all types of aircraft, both heavy transport and fighters, including the Su-30 MKI. The philosophy being that all airfields to be brought up to a standard that is not aircraft specific, but can take all types of aircraft. The work on upgradation of Tezpur airfield has started and will be finished by end 2009. Similarly, we will be developing most of our airfields in that region including Jorhat. Kalaikunda is already developed. The airfield in Panagarh will be resurrected. We will also improve facilities and infrastructure at other air bases.

What are the IAF&#8217;s training priorities, joint warfare with land forces and simultaneous parallel warfare, and/or contingency-based joint warfare according to the Joint Doctrine issued by the Integrated Defence Headquarters in support of Operations Other Than War?
The Indian Air Force is fully committed to function as a cohesive and joint force as has been envisaged in the Joint Doctrine. Differing situations require accordingly appropriate responses. Airpower today, has ubiquitous capability and by virtue of that, provides the national leadership with a wide array of options to deal with the entire spectrum of conflict. It alone has the capability to respond swiftly and with precision from providing surveillance to destruction with minimum collateral damage.

Our procurement and modernisation plans are in consonance with the requirement to be able to conduct parallel and joint operations. We continue to prepare for these objectives and have developed considerable expertise towards this capability.

The IAF training pattern at operational and command levels is designed for smooth and efficient conduct of joint operations. A large number of joint courses with this specific objective are conducted regularly, to put in place structures and understanding of joint operations. We conduct joint exercises with the army and the navy, to strengthen, hone and refine our procedures.

What are the IAF&#8217;s capability-building targets in terms of combat strength?

IAF&#8217;s plan to have the authorised number of combat squadrons was adversely affected, as the procurement process did not keep pace with phasing out of aircraft. The strength of combat squadrons in the IAF by end of the 12th Plan, will be much closer to our authorised strength. IAF has planned the induction of additional Su-30 MKIs, M-MRCA and LCA to arrest the depleting trend. More specifically, two squadrons of the LCA in the IOC version will be inducted in 2010-11. After that, *the IAF plan is to have six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Defence Plan. These squadrons should start joining the IAF by 2017.* Induction of the MMRCA is also likely to commence in 2012. And as you know, induction of Su-30MKI is an ongoing process, where eventually we will have a total of about 230 aircraft. At present, we have three Su-30MKI squadrons. HAL manufactures about 13 Su-30MKI every year. The additional 40 Su-30 MKI&#8217;s will be inducted in 2009-2010.

What is the update on network-centric warfare, especially the inductions of Integrated Air Command and Control (IACCS)?
Success in contemporary warfare demands domination of information. This implies possession of capability to gather information and exploit it, strategically or tactically, in a time-cycle shorter than the adversary&#8217;s. The IAF had put in motion plans to develop these capabilities and it is that effort that is seeing fruition today. Project IACCS was conceived to automate the AD Command and Control setup of the IAF. We have laid down the fundamental architecture for the network and are in the process of establishing an IP/MPLS-based Fibre Optic network connecting all bases. Modern generation Mobile Communication Terminals (MCT) have been planned for last mile connectivity. All these networks are capable of high data transfer loads with redundancy.

When will the first AWACS be inducted and where will it be located?
The first AWACS is expected in October this year, followed by two more. The first AWACS will be based in Agra.

Are there plans of acquiring cargo version of C-130J Hercules and additional C-130J Special Operations Version?

The IAF is in the process of acquiring six C-130J (Hercules) aircraft from the USA through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route with an option to bid for six more. It is being written that these aircraft are for special operations role. The reality is that the aircraft has the special operations equipment but can also be used in the cargo role. It is a multi-role aircraft. The plan for induction of transport aircraft into the IAF is based on various factors like its strategic compulsions, operational tasks and required capability so as to meet the requisite tasks. Suitable aircraft are planned for induction in a phased manner.

Please give an update on medium lift, both aircraft and helicopter, capabilities. What steps have been initiated and what is in the pipeline?
The demand on our transport and helicopter fleets is very high and will only increase in the future due to enhanced national and international commitments. Transport aircraft commitment in support of troops to inhospitable and inaccessible areas like Ladakh, north eastern region and Andaman & Nicobar Islands has also increased. Our transport fleet is a mix of heavy, medium and light transport aircraft of varying vintage. A variety of upgradation and procurement schemes are being progressed to meet the enhanced task.

The helicopter is a versatile machine and has multiple utility in peace and war. The IAF&#8217;s requirement of helicopters will be met by inducting additional helicopters, in a phased manner during the next two &#8216;Five-Year-Plan&#8217; periods. These new helicopters would be in the light, medium and heavy-lift categories, as also attack helicopters. In more specific terms, the IAF has a requirement for 125 Light Utility Helicopters (LUH). There are plans to procure 197 LUH of which 64 will be for the IAF and the remaining for the army. In addition to this, HAL will develop and manufacture 187 LUH. The Qualitative Requirements (QR) for the latter aircraft has not been decided yet. As the IAF will be working closely with HAL on this project, a better QR will be finalised closer to time.

Regarding the medium lift helicopters, we are looking at a payload of three to five tonnes and &#8216;all up weight&#8217; in the region of 12 to 14 tonnes. We are very close to signing the contract in the next few months.

In the fixed wing transport category, we intend upgrading the An-32 with better avionics and systems.

The case for upgrading IL-76 will depend upon the cost-effectiveness of the project which needs to be assessed. As you know, in the medium category we have signed an agreement with Russia for design and development of MTA. The first aircraft should fly around 2013-2014.

The RFP for 22 attack helicopters has been issued recently. Which are the companies who have been issued the RFP?
The RFP has gone to most of the advanced helicopter manufacturing companies around the world.

What is the roadmap for UAV acquisition, both in terms of number of squadrons and capabilities?
The UAV is a potent force multiplier with immense capabilities, which can enhance our operational potential and preparedness, by optimally integrating the existing resources with other elements of air power. We also envisage that the requirement of these platforms would increase in future due to the emerging irregular and asymmetric threats. We have plans to upgrade the existing UAVs, as well as induct more with enhanced capabilities and performance. These systems are envisaged to play a crucial role in future operations. As far as the up gradation is concerned, we are basically looking at payload upgrades.

With such an induction of transport and fighter aircraft, do you visualise a pilots&#8217; shortage as is being mentioned in the media reports?
Let me start by explaining that an air force pilot takes up to six-eight years of initial and operational training before he can be said to be fully operational on any type of aircraft. Pilots have to be trained over a period of time and you do not get them overnight. We are short of about 400 pilots presently, but with increased intakes and introduction of Short Service Commission in the flying branch, we will make good the shortage by 2010. Hence, this issue does not worry me too much.

In operational terms, what is the single thing that concerns you a lot?
The one thing that remains foremost in my mind is that while procurements and modernisation continue, we must always maintain a combat edge with whatever we have over our likely adversaries. At the same time, we should have the capability and knowledge domain to keep absorbing new technology that is being inducted.

What is the progress on the fifth generation aircraft with Russians? What capabilities is the IAF looking for in the fifth generation aircraft?
An Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) has been signed between the two countries. An IGA has also been signed to formalise the co-development and co-production of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Presently, discussions are being held to finalise the technical specifications of the FGFA. Development of the MTA and FGFA, and their subsequent induction in the IAF, is planned in a phased manner during the next two &#8216;Five-Year-Plan&#8217; periods.

How many aerostat radars are to be procured by the air force?

We have procured and set-up two aerostat radars, which are fully operational now. Eventually, we hope to have 11 aerostat radars by the end of 13th Defence Plan.

Provisioning of spares, especially of Russian origin platforms, continues to be problem area. What is being done with the OEMs and HAL in this regard?
IAF is taking the necessary measures by anticipating requirements and signing of long-term contracts spanning three to five years, and continuous interaction with OEMs/Vendors to ensure timely supplies. Indigenisation is also helping overcome shortages of some of the spares. As regards HAL, IAF is in constant touch with various HAL divisions to synergise efforts towards desired provisioning levels.

Is the IAF satisfied with the performance of Cheetal helicopters especially for Siachen and sub-sector North? How many Cheetal units will be raised in the 11th Defence Plan?

The Cheetal helicopters are planned to be inducted this year. Operational performance would be known only after extensive utilisation in field units. A comprehensive review of the helicopter fleet is undertaken regularly and plans are made to induct helicopters with specific capabilities. In fact, Cheetal owes its development to such a review in the past.

What IAF projects are underway and in the pipeline with HAL?
During the past decade, HAL has made rapid strides in delivering the desired products to the Indian Air Force. Interaction with HAL has grown manifold and we are on a daily dialogue on issues concerning us. During the next few years, HAL would be engaged in production, overhaul and upgrade of a number of aircraft and ground-based equipment for the IAF. HAL is currently engaged with more than 25 Air Force projects.

What is the ideal and realistic time table for induction of the 126 MMRCA? What steps are involved in the procurement of these combat aircraft?

The proposals have been received from the vendors and are now being scrutinised. Thereafter, the procedure as per the Defence Procurement Policy would be followed and efforts would be made to meet the laid down time frames.

Does the IAF practice for the strategic role to ensure a credible nuclear deterrence?

India has always propagated &#8216;No First Use&#8217; in case of nuclear weapon employment. Deterrence has credibility only if there is demonstrated capability!

You were present at ILA 2008. What are your impressions of the show?

Indian aerospace industry made an impact on the European visitors. I must mention that the showcasing of indigenous Dhruv, both by the IAF&#8217;s &#8216;Sarang&#8217; display team and HAL, had a major impact on the people. I would like to share with you that as I was going around with the German Air Force Chief, he was especially appreciative of the good capabilities displayed by the Indian DPSU&#8217;s and industry. He told me that the Indian indigenous electronic warfare equipment and sensors were world class. I think India did extremely well, given the fact that we partnered a world-class air show for the first time.

Besides ILA, did you have any other engagements in Germany?

Yes, I took the opportunity to visit German Air Force formations on the invitation of my German counterpart. I visited their Air Command in K&#246;ln, where I was given briefings about their operations with ISAF and NATO experiences in Bosnia. I also visited their air policing centre, which is jointly manned by Luftwaffe and civil aviation for air space management.

What about air space management in India?

The IAF is responsible for the Air Defence of the Indian air space. In India, we are working for a close interaction between the IAF and civil radars for better use of air space. This will ensure that the air force and civil aviation corridors are available to both for unrestricted flying, should it be required. In November-December, we tried this integration in the southern peninsular region and it worked very well. We are now in consultation with civil aviation authorities, for similar integration trials in other regions.


----------



## zeus

Keysersoze your concerned for the engine is appreciated ,but the engine issues seems to be sorted out and Air chief has told recently in the above interview about 6 squadrons will join iaf by 2017 first batch 20 with second batch 20 with 8 lsp make it 48 by 2012/13


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## Neo

Is it going to be a GE414? 
Last time I checked the GE404 was rejected as underpowered but still first 40 LCA's will be equipped with it.


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## zeus

23march said:


> Officially the longest time consuming project in history of aviation.
> So finally it will be reveled after 25 years?




Nope French have beaten us in that record with Rafale more then 25 years ,14 years (1986) from the first flight to induction (2000)


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## nitesh

can you please give the source url also pls


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## Myth_buster_1

zeus said:


> Nope French have beaten us in that record with Rafale more then 25 years ,14 years (1986) from the first flight to induction (2000)



Are you so stupid comparing development time of 4.5 Gen MRCA with a light 4th Gen fighter? The first Rafale prototype took a year to be operational for flight characteristics performance while during the period of next decade Rafale C, B, M were also being developed. Then the induction phase started as early as 2000, meaning it took 14 years to induction.


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## ejaz007

*India to launch Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by 2010*

NEW DELHI, June 8 (KUNA) -- In an effort to add firepower to its Air Force, Indias is developing -- Tejas-- a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to be launched by 2010. LCA was in the final stages of testing and by 2010 it was expected to be launched, a source in the Indian Defene Ministry told KUNA here Sunday. After LCAs are launched, the MiG-21 fighter jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) would be gradually phased out, the source added. Tejas is being developed by Indias Defence Research Development Organisation. Tejas underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station in the Western Indian city of Nagpur recently, the source said, adding, the trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period. The aim of the trials was to check operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 deg C, representative of the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in, after induction into the IAF.

"All aircraft systems, specifically the avionics system, flight control system and air conditioning system of Tejas were tested extensively during the trials and functioned satisfactorily on ground as well in flight," the source said, adding, a total of seven flights of four hours duration were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft PV2 and PV3. The tests included flights at 200 meters above the ground with a speed up to 1000 km per hour.

"It was the first time that the Tejas flew a non-stop distance of about 1, 000 km from Southern Indian city of Bangalore to Nagpur. This was possible due to the presence of external fuel tanks on the aircraft which were integrated recently. This was also the first time that the Tejas aircraft had been flown at such high ambient temperature conditions. A first look at the test data indicated that all the trial objectives were met satisfactorily," the source informed. The successful completion of the trial marked a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearance and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the IAF. Tejas is now planned for delivering precision guided bombs in the deserts of Western Indian state of Rajasthan, later this year. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## ejaz007

LCA project started in 1983 and shall be launched in 2010. This makes project 27 years old. So is it the longest time consuming aviation project or some one else has the record.


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## JEFF

ejaz007 said:


> LCA project started in 1983 and shall be launched in 2010. This makes project 27 years old. So is it the longest time consuming aviation project or some one else has the record.



In the year 1983, the project was launched.

In the year 1984, ADA was established to to manage the project.

In October 1985, Air staff requirements of IAF that is User requirement were finalized.

In the year October 1987, Project Defination phased were commensed and was completed in September 1988.

Although first flight were sheduled for April 1990 and induction in 1995 but because of all above requirements as well as time taken for setting up Infrastrucutre, recruitement of the manpower, study available R&D in a country, and to gain clear perspective of advanced technologies original scheduled could not be meet with. 

Because of severe financial crunch full scale funding could not be available till April 1993.

Then in 1995 building of first TD-1 were complated followed by TD-2 in 1998 but because of problems of flight control system originally known as FBW and non availablity of GE engine were severaly hampered by US sanctions because of nucler test.


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## JEFF

23march said:


> Are you so stupid comparing development time of 4.5 Gen MRCA with a light 4th Gen fighter?



23March, what did you seen such a significent difference between 4.5 generation and 4th generation fighter plane especially when the country who has opted for the development of 4th generation of fighter plane has no experience of building the one? 




23march said:


> The first Rafale prototype took a year to be operational for flight characteristics performance while during the period of next decade Rafale C, B, M were also being developed. Then the induction phase started as early as 2000, meaning it took 14 years to induction.



Boss for you kind pursuence, let me enlighten you as Rafale project were formally awareded to Desault in 1983 then it take 1986 for first test flight followed by induction in 2000. So it means that if I take into account your line of thinking then it took Rafale 14 years to be inducted from first flight test, in contrast if we takes into account induction date of Tejas which is schedule for 2010 then it barely taken LCA with only 10 years for induction as Tejas first flight tested on 2001. So LCA would win the race of induction as far as your line of thinking is concerned.


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## nitesh

I just added this news here as I feel there is no need for a new thread for this news

PIB Press Release

*IAF&#8217;s Sarang Helicopter Display Team Adjudged &#8216;The Best&#8217; at Berlin Air Show*
16:58 IST
The Indian Air Forces&#8217; helicopter Display team &#8216;Sarang&#8217; has been adjudged the &#8216;Best looking close formation&#8217; aerobatic team at the ILA Berlin Air Show 2008. 

Out of the five aircraft formation teams from various countries viz India, Switzerland, Austria, UK and Germany the Indian &#8216;Sarang&#8217; stood out conspicuously, doing the Nation proud. It may be recalled that at the recently concluded ILA Berlin Air Show 2008, India participated in a big way. The Indian participation comprised, apart from DPSU&#8217;s, OFB, DRDO and private defence industries, Sarang helicopter Display team and the Air Warrior Symphony Orchestra of the IAF. 

Presently the &#8216;Sarang&#8217; team of 4 Dhruv helicopters, 14 officers and 32 airmen led by Wg Cdr Shashank Mishra, having performed at Berlin Air Show, are participating in various displays in England. They are slated to perform at Biggin hill Air Show followed by Waddington Air Show, Fairford Royal International and the prestigious Farnborough International Air Show before returning to home. 

&#8216;Sarang&#8217; helicopter display team of the Indian Air Force was formed in Mar 2002 with the IAF of showcasing the professionalism of the IAF and the giant leap of Indian Aviation Industry. The name &#8216;Sarang&#8217; was chosen for the team, as peacock is one of the most enchanting bird, and epitomizes beauty and grace which are the hall marks of teams display. The teams&#8217; helicopters have been painted in a unique paint scheme which utilizes bright colours with a peacock form imposed on it. 

The team formulated and executed a three helicopter display profile with little experience in the field of display in a very short span of time. The first public display of the Sarang team was during the Asian Aerospace at Singapore in 2004. Since then, the team has graduated to a four helicopter team and has participated in numerous displays in India and abroad. 

***************** 

MU/MKR

That's a good achievement kudos to sarang team


----------



## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> I just added this news here as I feel there is no need for a new thread for this news
> 
> PIB Press Release
> 
> *IAFs Sarang Helicopter Display Team Adjudged The Best at Berlin Air Show*
> 16:58 IST
> The Indian Air Forces helicopter Display team Sarang has been adjudged the Best looking close formation aerobatic team at the ILA Berlin Air Show 2008.
> 
> Out of the five aircraft formation teams from various countries viz India, Switzerland, Austria, UK and Germany the Indian Sarang stood out conspicuously, doing the Nation proud. It may be recalled that at the recently concluded ILA Berlin Air Show 2008, India participated in a big way. The Indian participation comprised, apart from DPSUs, OFB, DRDO and private defence industries, Sarang helicopter Display team and the Air Warrior Symphony Orchestra of the IAF.
> 
> Presently the Sarang team of 4 Dhruv helicopters, 14 officers and 32 airmen led by Wg Cdr Shashank Mishra, having performed at Berlin Air Show, are participating in various displays in England. They are slated to perform at Biggin hill Air Show followed by Waddington Air Show, Fairford Royal International and the prestigious Farnborough International Air Show before returning to home.
> 
> Sarang helicopter display team of the Indian Air Force was formed in Mar 2002 with the IAF of showcasing the professionalism of the IAF and the giant leap of Indian Aviation Industry. The name Sarang was chosen for the team, as peacock is one of the most enchanting bird, and epitomizes beauty and grace which are the hall marks of teams display. The teams helicopters have been painted in a unique paint scheme which utilizes bright colours with a peacock form imposed on it.
> 
> The team formulated and executed a three helicopter display profile with little experience in the field of display in a very short span of time. The first public display of the Sarang team was during the Asian Aerospace at Singapore in 2004. Since then, the team has graduated to a four helicopter team and has participated in numerous displays in India and abroad.
> 
> *****************
> 
> MU/MKR
> 
> That's a good achievement kudos to sarang team



It was more of colors and attractive paint scheme that made them the display team of the show!
i also like the peacock scheme!


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## nitesh

23march said:


> It was more of colors and attractive paint scheme that made them the display team of the show!
> i also like the peacock scheme!



R u trying to say that this show is not an Air Show but a fashion parade


----------



## nitesh

I just put this info here, cos i didn't wanted to start another thread for this, mods please correct me if I am wrong
domain-b.com : Swiss firm Ruag, HAL in JV for production of next generation Do-228 aircraft

Swiss firm Ruag, HAL in JV for production of next generation Do-228 aircraft news	

12 June 2008	


Berlin: The Dornier-228 aircraft, which has performed yeoman service in various Indian defence and civilian organisations in operations out at sea with the Indian Coast Guard or on unprepared airstrips in the far flung regions of the country's north-east, may get a fresh lease of life after the signing of a deal between India's aerospace major, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Swiss aerospace company Ruag. The two entities have signed a joint venture agreement for the manufacture of a next generation of Dornier 228 aircraft, at the recently concluded ILA 2008 air show at Berlin.

According to Ruag Aerospace's managing director, Wolfgang Neumann, his company's new collaboration with HAL aimed at producing a next generation of 19-seat Do-228 aircraft in Oberpfaffenhofen near Munich as a ''milestone'' in the cooperation between the two companies and as a breakthrough for HAL in Europe.

According to Neumann, he was quite optimistic about the proposed collaboration between HAL and Ruag Aerospace in re-starting the production of one of the world's most proven multi-purpose aircraft in operation.

Under a $123 million joint venture agreement signed by the two companies at the recent International Aerospace Exhibition (ILA) in Berlin, HAL would supply the first three sets of components for the new aircraft - the fuselage, wings and the tail units - for its initial phase.


According to Neumann, production of the Dornier 228 new generation aircraft would start soon in Oberpfaffenhofen and HAL's involvement would be stepped up in coming years by adding new components to the assembly line.

The agreement signed in Berlin would be part of a ten-year contract.

Neumann also said he would not rule out the possibility that the new Do-228 would be manufactured completely by HAL, either in India or in Germany, sometime in the future.

HAL has considerable experience in manufacturing the original Dornier 228 aircraft and it has excellent manufacturing and servicing facilities in India.


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## nitesh

Latest updates on ADA site about LCA

ADA WebSite - Home

LCA-Tejas has completed 891 Test Flights successfully. (07-June-08).

* LCA has completed 891 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-275,PV1-167,PV2-102,PV3-87,LSP1-27).
* 87th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 06th June 08.

* 102nd flight of Tejas PV2 Ferry flight from Nagpur occurred on 04th June 08.
* 86th flight of Tejas PV3 Ferry flight from Nagpur occurred on 04th June 08.


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## nitesh

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday. 

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here. 

Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said. 

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to. 

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA. 

There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said. 

Bureau Report


----------



## Skywalker

nitesh said:


> http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905
> 
> 5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser
> 
> Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.
> 
> Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here.
> 
> Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.
> 
> "We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.
> 
> LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.
> 
> DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.
> 
> There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said.
> 
> Bureau Report



Please give us a break, you cant even make a decent 4th generation aircraft and now you are talking about flying a 5th gen next year. So who is gonna supply you the engine..... LEGO corporation. 

Nothing against India or her scientists but please be realistic and tell DRDO to stop folling around.


----------



## IND

Skywalker said:


> Please give us a break, you cant even make a decent 4th generation aircraft and now you are talking about flying a 5th gen next year. So who is gonna supply you the engine..... LEGO corporation.
> 
> Nothing against India or her scientists but please be realistic and tell DRDO to stop folling around.



You please stop getting disturbed on these reports.


----------



## Skywalker

IND said:


> You please stop getting disturbed on these reports.



hahahaha...disturbed me on what...India making 5th gen aircraft....I cant stop laughing myself...please tell DRDO to do something practical first solve the Kaveri engine problem and think about something else.


----------



## nitesh

Skywalker said:


> hahahaha...disturbed me on what...India making 5th gen aircraft....I cant stop laughing myself...please tell DRDO to do something practical first solve the Kaveri engine problem and think about something else.



I think he must be talking about PAK-FA and news is twisted to make it look like MCA. But anyway its a good thing to try out. As for kaveri things are at-least moving in the right direction.


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## shrivatsa

that's pak fa not mca


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## shrivatsa

thats pak fa not mca


----------



## Joodi

nitesh said:


> http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905
> 
> 5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser
> 
> Bureau Report



Oh bhai zara halkay aa jao. My Godness indian home grown 5th generation. I think new episode of Great indian lauger challange.


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## Joodi

The world is listening these LCA induction dates for the last 12 yrs . every time a date for LCA induction is given and the date passes away quietly with excuses from ADA and HAL after wards.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

Skywalker said:


> Please give us a break, you cant even make a decent 4th generation aircraft and now you are talking about flying a 5th gen next year. So who is gonna supply you the engine..... LEGO corporation.
> 
> Nothing against India or her scientists but please be realistic and tell DRDO to stop folling around.




Cant Make ??? Already made 

Look these Guys ... Chinese Old Metal Frame design Plane with Russian Old generation Engine ...and Radar dont know yet must be older generation..


Comparison with LCA Composite Frame....... 


Engines can be provided by Russia , US or EU not problem .... AESA Radar is being developed in next 2-3 years. Engines can also be developed again 2-3 years now..

India can design and develop planes ... think about you , You still cant design plane , forget about making engines ...... OH Yea where is WS engine ??? did Chinese know they cant copy engine thats why they brough large number Russian engines....... Hey Chinese Radar is inferior .... thats why PAF don't want that 

In Next 2-3 Years will able to design and develop Engine and Radar.... what about you


----------



## SU 30 MKI

Joodi said:


> The world is listening these LCA induction dates for the last 12 yrs . every time a date for LCA induction is given and the date passes away quietly with excuses from ADA and HAL after wards.



Yea , because developing Plane is not easy task epically engine and radar thats why Chinese buy from Russia and PAF from Italy


----------



## SU 30 MKI

Joodi said:


> Oh bhai zara halkay aa jao. My Godness indian home grown 5th generation. I think new episode of Great indian lauger challange.




Yep you are right but not big then Old designe Chinese Frame with Russian engine and Italian Radar is developed by PAF


----------



## Skywalker

SU 30 MKI said:


> Cant Make ??? Already made
> 
> Look these Guys ... Chinese Old Metal Frame design Plane with Russian Old generation Engine ...and Radar dont know yet must be older generation..
> 
> 
> Comparison with LCA Composite Frame.......
> 
> 
> Engines can be provided by Russia , US or EU not problem .... AESA Radar is being developed in next 2-3 years. Engines can also be developed again 2-3 years now..
> 
> India can design and develop planes ... think about you , You still cant design plane , forget about making engines ...... OH Yea where is WS engine ??? did Chinese know they cant copy engine thats why they brough large number Russian engines....... Hey Chinese Radar is inferior .... thats why PAF don't want that
> 
> In Next 2-3 Years will able to design and develop Engine and Radar.... what about you



India can design and develop a plane..so in other word India can design and develop a wheel. Taking things from Israel and russia does not guarantee anything ...yes maybe in few years you might be able to produce a copy...yes we cant make engine..agreed..but we never tried for that...yes radar might be inferior (not to Indian versions...please dont make me laugh again) but yes we dont throw things in the air well you have no idea whats cooking inside not like DRDO just to keep the Indian publics mouth shut...

WS engine is china's problem not ours...and it would be ready in a year so...its a brilliant acchievement by PAF to induct a squadron of jf17 within 5 yrs of the plan unlike LCA..still no sign only BS. . For your info JF17 using the same engine (RD93) which they will be using in your futurer mig 29....I can carry on like this forever.........


----------



## nitesh

Skywalker said:


> India can design and develop a plane..so in other word India can design and develop a wheel. Taking things from Israel and russia does not guarantee anything ...yes maybe in few years you might be able to produce a copy...yes we cant make engine..agreed..but we never tried for that...yes radar might be inferior (not to Indian versions...please dont make me laugh again) but yes we dont throw things in the air well you have no idea whats cooking inside not like DRDO just to keep the Indian publics mouth shut...
> 
> WS engine is china's problem not ours...and it would be ready in a year so...its a brilliant acchievement by PAF to induct a squadron of jf17 within 5 yrs of the plan unlike LCA..still no sign only BS. . For your info JF17 using the same engine (RD93) which they will be using in your futurer mig 29....I can carry on like this forever.........



I agree, its a brilliant achievement to induct JF-17, but need to understand the problems associated with it.

Engine: Russian origin, Russia can anytime impose senction on it.
Avionics, radar etc: I dont have the source but it seems PAF is looking for integrating the plane with french avionics, radar etc. Dont you think it will take some time to integrate it in to the plane.

Weapons: Plan to integrate with french weapns. No chance with american weapons, as they will never allow that.

End of the day this debate will not get into any conclusion. JF-17 is a very capable plane in it's own league.

Its good to try making things on your own, so that external dependencies can be removed.


----------



## Skywalker

nitesh said:


> I agree, its a brilliant achievement to induct JF-17, but need to understand the problems associated with it.
> 
> Engine: Russian origin, Russia can anytime impose senction on it.
> Avionics, radar etc: I dont have the source but it seems PAF is looking for integrating the plane with french avionics, radar etc. Dont you think it will take some time to integrate it in to the plane.
> 
> Weapons: Plan to integrate with french weapns. No chance with american weapons, as they will never allow that.
> 
> End of the day this debate will not get into any conclusion. JF-17 is a very capable plane in it's own league.
> 
> Its good to try making things on your own, so that external dependencies can be removed.



Dear Nitesh,

I cent percent agreed with you that its better to be more indigenious rather than relying on others especially who betrayed you time n again. I think jf17 is the first step towards goin indigenious... but if you look towards Pakistan's history in acquiring hi tech equipments it was alwyas been the same case. I believe the concerns are very much aware of this thing and sooner or later there would be another embargo.

As far as integrating the avionics and radars are concern obviously there must be a contingency plan for that...thats why they didnt even thought of acquiring american equipment...cause Americans are not worth friends.


----------



## nitesh

Skywalker said:


> Dear Nitesh,
> 
> I cent percent agreed with you that its better to be more indigenious rather than relying on others especially who betrayed you time n again. I think jf17 is the first step towards goin indigenious... but if you look towards Pakistan's history in acquiring hi tech equipments it was alwyas been the same case. I believe the concerns are very much aware of this thing and sooner or later there would be another embargo.
> 
> As far as integrating the avionics and radars are concern obviously there must be a contingency plan for that...thats why they didnt even thought of acquiring american equipment...cause Americans are not worth friends.



Hey sky, can you give me some link where I can find out more about JF-17, its engine, avionics etc. some friends of mine where saying me that engine used in JF-17 and MiG29 are quite different. Well, just a request.


----------



## Skywalker

nitesh said:


> Hey sky, can you give me some link where I can find out more about JF-17, its engine, avionics etc. some friends of mine where saying me that engine used in JF-17 and MiG29 are quite different. Well, just a request.



Not a problem dude, you can check all the details about JF17 in the same thread or goto www.sinodefence.com.:pakistan:


----------



## shrivatsa

Early Designation Super-7
Official Designation Fighter China-1 (FC-1)
PAF Designation Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) 'Thunder'
Function Air-superiority; ground attack
Operator Pakistani Air Force
Designer Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute)
Contractor Chengdu Aircraft Industry (Group) Corporation Ltd. (CAC)
Maiden Flight 25 August 2003
Crew One
Estimated Cost US$15~20 million
Length 14m
Wingspan 9m
Wing Area 5.1m
Canard Area N/A
Empty Weight 6,320kg
Normal Take-off Weight 9,100kg
Max Take-off Weight 12,700kg
Fuel Capacity 2,300kg
Max Payload 3,700kg
Powerplant 1X Russian RD-93 turbofan
Thrust (dry) 49.4kN
Thrust (afterburning) 81.4kN
Max Level Speed Mach 1.6~1.8 (high altitude)
Max Climb Rate N/A
Service Ceiling 16,700m
Range 3,000km
Operational Radius 1,350km
In-flight refuelling No
G limit -3 ~ +8.5
Fixed Weapon 23mm or 30mm single-barrel cannon
External Hardpoints Seven (1 under the fuselage centerline; 4 under the wings; 2 on the wingtips)


----------



## shrivatsa

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn


----------



## nitesh

shrivatsa said:


> Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
> jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn



Well, the actual answer will be complex. But to put in simple words, The IAF staff requirement asks for ~100KN engine whereas PAF staff requirements are getting satisfied with the 81.4KN engine.


----------



## QuickSilver

shrivatsa said:


> Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
> jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn



its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable' - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)

cheers


----------



## Neo

QuickSilver said:


> its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, *LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable'* - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)
> 
> cheers



Twelve LCA prototypes have flown more than 1000 hours. You have *12 different centres of gravities *with each of those prototypes. Which one is the true one?


----------



## ejaz007

*Production version of LCA 'Tejas' takes to skies*
Bangalore | Monday, Jun 16 2008 IST


The much-awaited maiden flight of LSP-2 (Limited Series Production) of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' was successfully carried out at the HAL airport here.

The state-of-the-art aircraft, which was flown by National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) test pilot Wg Cdr N Tiwari, took off majestically and flew for 30 minutes at 1.1 Mach crossing 1,200 kmph. As had been the practice, the maiden flight of this aircraft was chased by another Tejas aircraft PV3, piloted by Wg Cdr RR Tyagi.

Speaking to UNI here, Mr L S Subramanium, Chief of LCA Division of HAL, the public sector aircraft manufacturer, said it was a key phase of the jet fighter. So far, the prototypes had completed 900 flights.

A HAL release here said that eventhough the aircraft was ready for its maiden flight last week itself, the flight could not take off because of the pre-monsoon weather prevailing in Bangalore.

The flight was conducted by NFTC of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) from its telemetry station, with Wg Cdr M Prabhu, flight test engineer, as the test director. Today's maiden flight of LSP-2 was significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and also had a new ejection seat version, the Martin Baker Mk 16LG, the release said.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Twelve LCA prototypes have flown more than 1000 hours. You have 12 different centres of gravities with each of those prototypes. Which one is the true one?



Neo is'nt it the job of quad FBW programme to adjust according to varying centre of gravity?


----------



## nitesh

Second Tejas aircraft breaks sound barrier on maiden flight- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times


Second Tejas aircraft breaks sound barrier on maiden flight
16 Jun, 2008, 2314 hrs IST, IANS

BANGALORE: The second indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas flew at supersonic speed on its maiden test flight over Bangalore skies on Monday evening. 

"This is the second time a Tejas aircraft has flown at a speed of 1.1 Mach (1,320 km per hour) up to an altitude of 9.5 km in a maiden flight lasting 43 minutes," the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said in a statement on late Monday. 

The limited series production aircraft (LSP2) was flown by ADA's national flight test centre (NFTC) pilot Wing Commander N Tiwari. As is the practice, the multi-role fighter aircraft was chased by another Tejas prototype version three (PV-3) piloted by Wing Commander R R Tyagi. 

The flight test was monitored from NFTC's telemetry station at the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) airport in the eastern suburb of the city. 

"The maiden flight of LSP2 is significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is also the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and has a new ejection seat version - the Martin Baker Mk 16LG," the aerospace agency said. 

The first eight Tejas aircraft is to be delivered to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy between 2010 and 2012 and will be fitted with the IN20 engines from the US-based General Electric.


----------



## Flintlock

Nitesh before you post an article please check if a similar one has been posted earlier.


----------



## x_man

shrivatsa said:


> Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
> jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn......
> 
> *Quicksilver* : its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable' - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)





Well your concern is genuine, but in overall aircraft comparison, the weight of the engine doesn&#8217;t matter that much...What matters is the thrust to weight ration...meaning that how much thrust the engine produces compared with the weight of aircraft with full compliment of internal/external loads....

As far as the T/W ratios are concerned, please refer to below data...


* Tejas * 
Powerplant: 1x General Electric F04-GE-F2j3 augmented turbofan 
Max Thrust: 18,000 lb. 
Max Takeoff Weight: 27,558 lb. / 12,500 Kg 
Combat Thrust/Weight 0.96 


*JF-17*
Powerplant : 1x Klimov RD-93 turbofan 
Max Thrust: 18,300 lb.
Max Takeoff Weight: 27,558 lb. / 12,500 Kg 
Combat Thrust/Weight 0.98 

Source for above data: AirToAirCombat.Com:

So, its evident that both engines almost mirror each others performance...As Quicksilver has stated in his post that engine power has something to do with the stability of the aircraft , I am afraid its not right....Just for your info , every aircraft experiences four forces....that are Lift , Drag , Weight and Thrust....Lift is an upward force produced mainly by wings , Thrust is a forward force generated by engines , weights acts thru the CG ( centre of gravity and refers to the mass of aircraft) and Drag or resistance is the force that acts opposite to the flight path.......








So you see that stability has nothing to do with the engine thrust rather is more of an aerodynamics factor and is more associated with the controlling of aircraft...Every fighter is designed to be unstable ( within certain limits) .....Too much stability means that its difficult to manoeuvre and too less stability will make it difficult to fly ....So within certain limits a fighter is made to operate that is also called the flight envelope.....Take an example of F-16, it is so unstable that it couldn&#8217;t be control thru the normal conventional flight controls. General Dynamics (back then) had to use the electric flight controls so the term fly-by-wire was coined....if F-16 looses is complete electric power, despite having the 29000lb of raw thrust, the aircraft is virtually uncontrollable and the only thing a pilot can do is to EJECT!!!


----------



## SU 30 MKI

shrivatsa said:


> Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
> jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn



Well LCA Weight increased by 2000 Kg then expected, so with 80 KN thrust it can carry less weapon load 

1) GE Modified their engine and provided GE F404-20IN engine for LCA which is 85 KN Thrust. which include in first 20 Planes 

2) Now EU Offered EJ200 engine with its core Technology Transfer to India which means India can make its own engine using its own Kits and dont have to depend on any part to EU after that. 

EJ200 Produce 90KN Thrust 

But due to only having 5 stages of compression , it can go upto 100 KN by adding stages.

3) At same time GE pitching GE 414 Engine which have 97.5 KN thrust.


These engine will be fitted in next 20 Batch if all things goes well.


The reason IAF Want More thrust because IAF want LCA Air multi Role Air Superiority plane which can super cruse 

While PAF JF 17 is Multi role fighter


----------



## blain2

SU 30 MKI said:


> The reason IAF Want More thrust because IAF want LCA Air multi Role Air Superiority plane which can super cruse
> 
> While PAF JF 17 is Multi role fighter





So do you not think that a Multi Role Fighter is also tasked with Air Superiority roles?

Super cruise is not a function of propulsion only. For LCA to do so, some major redesign of the air frame would be needed. As much as some Indians may detest this statement of mine, LCA and JF-17 are pretty much envisioned to be in the same league. A decent MR platform that can replace a lot of the older equipment.

In the end, you can only do so much on the LCA before you take the unit cost so high that it ceases to be an affordable aircraft for you to make it the backbone of your Airforce.


----------



## nitesh

domain-b.com : NAL, Pratt & Whitney in talks to co-develop aircraft engine for indigenous RTA-70 programme

NAL, Pratt & Whitney in talks to co-develop aircraft engine for indigenous RTA-70 programme news
16 June 2008
Bangalore: India's leading aerospace design establishment, the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), is in talks with leading engine makers, Pratt and Whitney of Canada, for the joint development of an India-specific engine for its proposed 90-seater regional transport aircraft, or RTA 70. The NAL-designed RTA-70 is meant to ply short-haul routes and compete with planes of French-Italian aircraft maker Avions de Transport R&#233;gional (ATR), a leading exporter of turbo-prop aircraft to the Indian sub-continent.

NAL, a constituent lab of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), wants a fuel-efficient turboprop engine from Pratt and Whitney to power the RTA-70.

''The technical discussions are on. They already have (similar type of) engines flying in other planes,'' said Kota Harinarayana, ex-chief designer of India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, and currently the Raja Ramanna fellow at NAL. Harinarayana is spearheading the RTA-70 project.

Pratt and Whitney engines also power the turboprop family of 50-74 seater planes of ATR, the equal joint venture between Alenia Aeronautica and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co.

India's aerospace industry has had limited success in developing engines. Its only success, to date, has been the PTAE-7 small engine for Lakshya, the pilotless target aircraft, built by aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The indigenously developed Kaveri engine for the LCA Tejas fighter, has already been under development for at least two decades. Off and on, there have been reports about the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment, the agency developing the engine, looking for foreign partners to build the power plant.

According to Harinarayana, NAL wants to sign a partner for the engine programme from the start in order to ensure long-term commitment and costs. He also said that NAL will build a digital concept of the RTA 70 in around two years and a flying prototype in four years.

NAL's 14-seat Saras plane, currently under development, is powered by Pratt and Whitney engines. Saras, named after the Indian crane, is a milestone in that it will be the first indigenously designed commercial civilian aircraft.

NAL is hoping for formal DGCA clearance for the Saras by 2009.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

blain2 said:


> So do you not think that a Multi Role Fighter is also tasked with Air Superiority roles?
> 
> Super cruise is not a function of propulsion only. For LCA to do so, some major redesign of the air frame would be needed. As much as some Indians may detest this statement of mine, LCA and JF-17 are pretty much envisioned to be in the same league. A decent MR platform that can replace a lot of the older equipment.
> 
> In the end, you can only do so much on the LCA before you take the unit cost so high that it ceases to be an affordable aircraft for you to make it the backbone of your Airforce.




Well .. this is was talking about Engine only with greater payload capacity....

Well LCA is going to be fitted with AESA Radar, while JF 17 dont have any road map on AESA ... Their it makes difference.

Every plane divided based on its functions .... if u see SU 30 is Air Superiority fighter, Multirole Fighter, Strike fighter, Heavy class fighter

while MIG 29 is Multirole fighter plane like this.


----------



## x_man

SU 30 MKI said:


> Every plane divided based on its functions .... if u see SU 30 is Air Superiority fighter, Multirole Fighter, Strike fighter, Heavy class fighter
> 
> while MIG 29 is Multirole fighter plane like this.



Su-30, I think you are confusing few things about the aircraft roles

Until few decades back, fighters used to be very role specificthey would be either ground attack or classified as Air superiority / Air defence fighters..However, with modernisation in metallurgy, avionics, aircraft design came the new breed of fighters, known as Multi Role Fighters (MR).The main thing that differentiates the two types of fighters (conventional and MR) is the vast choice of weapons and the availability of AI (airborne interceptor i.e. the radar on aircraft).MR fighter carries variety of munitions in a single sortie and with a flick of a switch , it can change it role from air-to-air to air-ground or vice versa

What you are saying is that SU-30 MKI is a Multi Role and also the Air defence fighter well; it can only be oneif you label it as MR, so it means that it is definitely an air defence fighter as well....

It is also worth mentioning that sometimes same airframe is used for the different rolesexamples are Mi-23 MF (air-air) /Mig-23 BN (air-ground) or Tornado IDS (air-ground)/Tornado ADV (Air Defence Variant)

On the contrary, Mirage 2000, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafael, SU-30, Chengdu J-10 ,Gripen etc are all MR fighters that can perform both the roles efficiently.Mig-29 is an air superiority fighter only (not a MR)...Tejas and JF-17 will be designated as MR fighters because of their varied choice of weapons. But it will be overrating to compare these two fighters with Eurofighter or SU-30 or F-16 (say block 60)..

LCA and JF-17 will be a new generation of cost effective, Multi Role fighters that will form the backbone of their respective airforces and make all existing older fighters redundantFor PAF , JF-17 will replace A-5s, F-7P and majority of Mirage squadrons. And on your side, LCA will replace Mig 21, Mig 23 and Mig-27s..

LCA and JF-17 will eventually (after replacing F-7 and Mig-21 ) become the first fighter or the stepping stone for the young graduating pilots from academiesthey will form part of the Operational conversion units and after flying for initially 3 to 4 years, officers will proceed to the advance fighters..


----------



## SU 30 MKI

x_man said:


> Su-30, I think you are confusing few things about the aircraft roles
> 
> Until few decades back, fighters used to be very role specificthey would be either ground attack or classified as Air superiority / Air defence fighters..However, with modernisation in metallurgy, avionics, aircraft design came the new breed of fighters, known as Multi Role Fighters (MR).The main thing that differentiates the two types of fighters (conventional and MR) is the vast choice of weapons and the availability of AI (airborne interceptor i.e. the radar on aircraft).MR fighter carries variety of munitions in a single sortie and with a flick of a switch , it can change it role from air-to-air to air-ground or vice versa
> 
> What you are saying is that SU-30 MKI is a Multi Role and also the Air defence fighter well; it can only be oneif you label it as MR, so it means that it is definitely an air defence fighter as well....
> 
> It is also worth mentioning that sometimes same airframe is used for the different rolesexamples are Mi-23 MF (air-air) /Mig-23 BN (air-ground) or Tornado IDS (air-ground)/Tornado ADV (Air Defence Variant)
> 
> On the contrary, Mirage 2000, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafael, SU-30, Chengdu J-10 ,Gripen etc are all MR fighters that can perform both the roles efficiently.Mig-29 is an air superiority fighter only (not a MR)...Tejas and JF-17 will be designated as MR fighters because of their varied choice of weapons. But it will be overrating to compare these two fighters with Eurofighter or SU-30 or F-16 (say block 60)..
> 
> LCA and JF-17 will be a new generation of cost effective, Multi Role fighters that will form the backbone of their respective airforces and make all existing older fighters redundantFor PAF , JF-17 will replace A-5s, F-7P and majority of Mirage squadrons. And on your side, LCA will replace Mig 21, Mig 23 and Mig-27s..
> 
> LCA and JF-17 will eventually (after replacing F-7 and Mig-21 ) become the first fighter or the stepping stone for the young graduating pilots from academiesthey will form part of the Operational conversion units and after flying for initially 3 to 4 years, officers will proceed to the advance fighters..



Agree But what will you call F-22 Multi Role Plane???

No, It is Air Dominance Plane. Because it purpose to have Dominance in Air, that is F22 Main Objective is while Ground attack is Secondary objective. Hence plane is made with that Capability.

Jagure : What you call that Plane Multi Role PLane? No, Its is Deep Penetration Bomber but it dose not stop her to carry A2A missile for its defence. BUt Plane primary Role is deep bombing and its designed for that role and not for air defense.

F22 and Jagure can carry all sort of weapons but their design, role and system designed to make specific role primary and their system is also designed to do that more effectively. 

Now every plane has its primary and secondary objectives which they r made for and specialized in.


----------



## x_man

SU 30 MKI said:


> Agree But what will you call F-22 Multi Role Plane???



Nopes...Its not a true MR fighter....With F-15 C / D reaching their airframe life, USAF needed a pure kickass Air Dominant fighter that could serve them for another 30 years ( atleast)...and the answer was F-22 Raptor....designers put all the gadgets and tit bits available in the market at the moment...stealth technology, super cruise, thrust vectoring etc....Its a true air-air fighter...Although it can carry JDAM and some other ordnance but basically it is an Air Superiority fighter....USAF would probably not employ Raptors for a strike role...because there are many other aircrafts that can do this job...

As far as Jaguar is concerned , its not a MR at all...its a strike/attack aircraft ....putting few missiles on it doesn&#8217;t qualify it to be a MR....A-5 also carries 2xAIM-9P or Mirage III / V carries Matra R530 ( i am not discussing ROSE modified here ) .. ....does this means that these are also MR fighters...No Sir......Why not, because none of these carry an AI ( airborne interceptor)....The missile they carry are mere heat seeking and for their own protection in case someone decides to give them a chase while they are carrying out their primary task.......

Let&#8217;s discuss that what qualifies an aircraft to be called a Multi Role fighter....A multirole combat aircraft is an aircraft that can be used as both a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft.....Along with the decent array of air-ground weapons ( dumb / smart ) , it should also be having a Air Borne radar in its nose along with choice of long range / short rang / heat seeking missiles......and it should also be able to perform all tasks during night as well ....


I like the way USAF nomenclature goes...its very straight forward and even if one hasn&#8217;t seen the aircraft, one can tell that what&#8217;s its basic role...e.g.

F for Fighters....F-86 , F-5 , F-15 , F-16 , F-22 etc

B for Bombers...B-57 , B-52 , B-1 ,B-2 etc

T for trainers....T-37 , T-38 , T-45 etc

C for Cargo...C-130 , C-5 , C-17...

A for Attack...A-10 , AC-130 , AV-8


----------



## Joodi

> Well LCA is going to be fitted with AESA Radar, while JF 17 dont have any road map on AESA ... Their it makes difference.



Dear talk and compare only those things which have been achieved in this LCA project, AESA on LCA is a far cry. 1. The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved. every body knows that Domestic multi mode radar program for LCA has ended in a failure. 
the MMR is not even ready for LCA it will still take atleast 3 yrs and u are making hypothetical claims of LCA with an AESA .first make a basic multimode radar for LCA integrate it with LCA and then think about AESA radar.


----------



## JEFF

Joodi said:


> Dear talk and compare only those things which have been achieved in this LCA project,



Well if this is the case then I am requesting you not to participate in fighter jet related discussions.



Joodi said:


> AESA on LCA is a far cry.



How spontenous!

I don't understand your any specific reason for agony. You can simply said that you don't want AESA with LCA. Already Isreali Elta is pitching high to integrate their own within LCA. 



Joodi said:


> 1. The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved.



There were never been any issues with Integration of imported radar with LCA because leaving aside talks of having collabration with foriegn company for its radar, there were never been any imported radar ever integrated with LCA and hence issues with the integration of imported radar with LCA not even arises. I don't know where did you get this particuler feeling, but hope even only you can resolve it to create realistic picture.



Joodi said:


> every body knows that Domestic multi mode radar program for LCA has ended in a failure.



Oh really, now who are this everybody? atleast we are not one among them, this is the one and only thing we needed to listen about from you. Kindly bring me a link which state above sentence.



Joodi said:


> the MMR is not even ready for LCA it will still take atleast 3 yrs and u are making hypothetical claims of LCA with an AESA.



Then tell me what kind of a technical parameters or information did encountered which makes integration of AESA into LCA a very complex issue before the integration of MMR? 



Joodi said:


> first make a basic multimode radar for LCA integrate it with LCA and then think about AESA radar.



It would be of your immense grace, if you can suggest above sentence in tadem with Technical parameters which makes intregration of MMR as a prerequistic for the integration of AESA into LCA?


----------



## nitesh

Joodi said:


> Dear talk and compare only those things which have been achieved in this LCA project, AESA on LCA is a far cry. 1. The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved. every body knows that Domestic multi mode radar program for LCA has ended in a failure.
> the MMR is not even ready for LCA it will still take atleast 3 yrs and u are making hypothetical claims of LCA with an AESA .first make a basic multimode radar for LCA integrate it with LCA and then think about AESA radar.



Hey just check this link for radars
Radar-fitted Tejas this year-Nagpur-Cities-The Times of India

The Indian MMR was ready but was not fit for A2G roles. So israel's Elta has been roped in and they are helping in getting the radar fixed. 

The difference between MMR and AESA in very basic terms is the range. AESA has better range then the MMR. But AESA has bigger size then the MMR. So there might be an issue. But the way the technology is maturing. i don't think it will take much time to fit an AESA to LCA, and rest all is system integration.


----------



## p2prada

First of, Whoopee my first post

Secondly, India has no plans of equiping any AESA on the LCA. An AESA is possible if we sit and redesign the nose cone cause it is too small.
But before that we need to change the mission computer with something more powerful. Then we need to change the cockpit displays from 2D to 3D. Lets not forget the additional 1million+ lines of codes for processing of data that the radar generates. Oh, did i mention we will have to change the data bus too. Which would mean re-working on the FBW. Then comes the weapons integration, since we are using a new processor and BUS. Same with the other avionics. I doubt DRDO and HAL have time on their hands even to make the AESA possible on the next upgrades until the MCA comes out.

An AESA is far off. It would be better to use the AESA on the AWACS or the Aerostats. The AESA is capable of datalink using their radar beams which can be picked up by the LCA for target detection and engagement. Or even using the MKIs.

There will come a time(probably by 2013) when India will have complete coverage of North India and its borders with the AESA, ground and air based). So, as of now equipping the LCA with AESA is not a priority.


As of now the avionics on JF-17 and LCA are the similar if not the same. If we need an edge, we need to go for the fastest possible datalink capability to help the aircraft get first shot, first kill capability. Thats where AWACS and GCI comes into the picture.

Cheers!!


----------



## ahussains

LCA is still hanging in the Air when its issuese going to resovle they are talking with P&W to devolped the engine guys the JF17 is in the AIR and in serial production toooo... ???


----------



## JEFF

ahussains said:


> LCA is still hanging in the Air when its issuese going to resovle they are talking with P&W to devolped the engine



It has been reiterated by both IAF and the maker of LCA to the death that first 40 LCA's would be fitted with GE engines. Engine problem is there but it is not that sufficient enough to stop LCA from joining the IAF.



ahussains said:


> guys the JF17 is in the AIR and in serial production toooo... ???



So does this mean that has it much more versatile then LCA or for that matter any other aircraft it supposed to face? Another thing is that, Has it even achieved its FOC? just because its production has commensed, it doesn't mean that JF-17 has complied by all the pre-requistic requirement. If I go with your life of thinking then already our two production model are flying and one with improved engine.


----------



## x_man

Many JF-17 are already flying in PAF ...a test and conversion unit has been established....and its converting new pilots onto Thunder regularly.....Although full operational capability (FOC) hasnt been achieved yet, but its not late that we will have a fully operational squadron up and running...These squadron pilots are regularly pitching the fighter against F-16, Mirage etc and flying all sort of air-ground missions...getting their hands on day and night as well....However, like any other fighter, Thunder will continue to evolve and improve in coming years....


----------



## nitesh

Some pics of LSP2

http://www.ada.gov.in/lsp2/lsp2.exe


----------



## SU 30 MKI

Joodi said:


> Dear talk and compare only those things which have been achieved in this LCA project, AESA on LCA is a far cry. 1. The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved. every body knows that Domestic multi mode radar program for LCA has ended in a failure.
> the MMR is not even ready for LCA it will still take atleast 3 yrs and u are making hypothetical claims of LCA with an AESA .first make a basic multimode radar for LCA integrate it with LCA and then think about AESA radar.




Israel has offered India Its El/M 2052 AESA Radar to India while Currently Indian LCA will fly with EL/M2032 Radar From Israel Till India will not develop its own MMR with Israel Help.

http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=34481&lang=en&res=0&pos=0&btl=1

http://www.iai.co.il/ELTA.aspx?docID=34455&FolderID=33796&lang=EN&res=0&pos=0 

India also developing its own AESA ... Radar 

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/in_rad_001.jpg
T/R Module Technology


----------



## blain2

SU 30 MKI said:


> Well .. this is was talking about Engine only with greater payload capacity....
> 
> Well LCA is going to be fitted with AESA Radar, while JF 17 dont have any road map on AESA ... Their it makes difference.
> 
> Every plane divided based on its functions .... if u see SU 30 is Air Superiority fighter, Multirole Fighter, Strike fighter, Heavy class fighter
> 
> while MIG 29 is Multirole fighter plane like this.



Not entirely true. PAF is fishing the market for the AESA capability on the JF-17 as well. This is as per the Chief of the Pakistan Air Force and looking at the past, the JF-17 may have an operational AESA capability before LCA.

The idea of MR is to provide an aircraft that can do multiple things instead of having a dedicated aircraft. That gets too expensive for most airforces. The idea is to integrate multiple roles into one aircraft.  Thus you have Multi Role, Swing Role etc. 

The terms such as "Heavy class" etc. etc. are all terms that arm chair analysts have coined. In reality the more MR the platform, the more ideal the deal. MKI is slated to be a MR aircraft...heavy etc. etc. means very little from a classification standpoint.

At the end of the day, a JF-17 (like LCA) would be able to take off with A2G ordnance plus BVR/WVR AAM loadout. It will also have a decent EW suit so it can conduct some jamming to press home attack or jam the other side's ability to see it, drop the ordnance and then return back safely. On the way if it needs to take on some other aircraft, it would do that as well.

The other more expensive alternate is to have dedicated aircraft for specific roles (which was the case in the past but now only a certain airforce (USAF only) can afford).


----------



## blain2

Just read X_man's post. I think he nailed all of the points that I am trying to make with regards to JF-17 being a MR platform.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

blain2 said:


> Not entirely true. PAF is fishing the market for the AESA capability on the JF-17 as well. This is as per the Chief of the Pakistan Air Force and looking at the past, the JF-17 may have an operational AESA capability before LCA.
> 
> The idea of MR is to provide an aircraft that can do multiple things instead of having a dedicated aircraft. That gets too expensive for most airforces. The idea is to integrate multiple roles into one aircraft. Thus you have Multi Role, Swing Role etc.
> 
> The terms such as "Heavy class" etc. etc. are all terms that arm chair analysts have coined. In reality the more MR the platform, the more ideal the deal. MKI is slated to be a MR aircraft...heavy etc. etc. means very little from a classification standpoint.
> 
> At the end of the day, a JF-17 (like LCA) would be able to take off with A2G ordnance plus BVR/WVR AAM loadout. It will also have a decent EW suit so it can conduct some jamming to press home attack or jam the other side's ability to see it, drop the ordnance and then return back safely. On the way if it needs to take on some other aircraft, it would do that as well.
> 
> The other more expensive alternate is to have dedicated aircraft for specific roles (which was the case in the past but now only a certain airforce (USAF only) can afford).



We all agree it is MR Platform ........... but can tell which AESA radar did countries offered you? 
and if they did why PAF going for 40 fitted with chinese radar?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SU 30 MKI said:


> We all agree it is MR Platform ........... but can tell which AESA radar did countries offered you?
> and if they did why PAF going for 40 fitted with chinese radar?



I don't think Blain said that the Thunder has an AESA already chosen.

He said that Pakistan is "fishing the market for one". 

We know that after the first batch of 40 to 50 thunders we will most likely see changes/improvements in the radar and other features. So Pakistan still has time to decide on what long term package it wants to install.

With respect to having a potential AESA before the LCA, I think Blain is referring to the amount of time the LCA has to make up before it reaches the stage the Thunder is in for Pakistan - in which case the Thunder may be equipped with an AESA before the LCA.

But at the end of the day, one has to remember that you need to compare weapon systems, and not just specific capabilities. The capability of the LCA vs Thunder is best measured by taking into account the entire gamut of deployed assets - net centric capabilities, platforms, missiles, etc.


----------



## Keysersoze

SU 30 MKI said:


> We all agree it is MR Platform ........... but can tell which AESA radar did countries offered you?
> and if they did why PAF going for 40 fitted with chinese radar?



Simple flame boy.........Selex/Vixen 500E




Thales

And the RBE2 which will have AESA capability. and the first 40 with Chinese are for a simple reason.....to gain capability faster rather than take 30 years and constantly moving the requirements and receiving no aircraft. When you induct the LCA come and post then. Otherwise go away because I am tiring of your attempts to flame.


----------



## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Simple flame boy.........Selex/Vixen 500E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thales
> 
> And the RBE2 which will have AESA capability. and the first 40 with Chinese are for a simple reason.....to gain capability faster rather than take 30 years and constantly moving the requirements and receiving no aircraft. When you induct the LCA come and post then. Otherwise go away because I am tiring of your attempts to flame.



Info regarding LCA radar 

The Hindu : National : Israeli knowhow for LCA radar

and

Radar-fitted Tejas this year-Nagpur-Cities-The Times of India


----------



## Keysersoze

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't think Blain said that the Thunder has an AESA already chosen.
> 
> He said that Pakistan is "fishing the market for one".
> 
> We know that after the first batch of 40 to 50 thunders we will most likely see changes/improvements in the radar and other features. So Pakistan still has time to decide on what long term package it wants to install.
> 
> With respect to having a potential AESA before the LCA, I think Blain is referring to the amount of time the LCA has to make up before it reaches the stage the Thunder is in for Pakistan - in which case the Thunder may be equipped with an AESA before the LCA.
> 
> But at the end of the day, one has to remember that you need to compare weapon systems, and not just specific capabilities. The capability of the LCA vs Thunder is best measured by taking into account the entire gamut of deployed assets - net centric capabilities, platforms, missiles, etc.



Actually AM there have been negotiations for the AESA for at least two years now. A number have been dangled about. The Selex amongst them. Besides the Chinese will undoubtedly have one sooner or later anyway.


----------



## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Info regarding LCA radar
> 
> The Hindu : National : Israeli knowhow for LCA radar
> 
> and
> 
> Radar-fitted Tejas this year-Nagpur-Cities-The Times of India



Dude it just says a radar being developed....not AESA as certain fanboys are raving about. Interesting article though. It has a fairly long list of failures of systems and a severe time delay.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Keysersoze said:


> Actually AM there have been negotiations for the AESA for at least two years now. A number have been dangled about. The Selex amongst them. Besides the Chinese will undoubtedly have one sooner or later anyway.



Oh sure, I agree.

I just wanted to point out that the fact that Pakistan had not selected one for the first batch of 40-50 does not mean the options are not there or that it will not be equipped with it later.

I think your point is completely valid, that the PAF wanted its first batch of AC in the air and its pilots familiarized with it - no better way to further develop/troubleshoot your equipment.


----------



## Neo

SU 30 MKI said:


> We all agree it is MR Platform ........... but can tell which AESA radar did countries offered you?


Already answered by Keys.


> and if they did why PAF going for 40 fitted with chinese radar?


Selection of Chinese radar, avionics and weapon suite is contract bound for the first batch of 50 (not 40) JF-17's giving the fact that it has to meet PAF's ASR. We're satisfied with KLJ for the time being.

Aesa when available will only be fitted in Block II which can be expected from mid 2010.


----------



## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Dude it just says a radar being developed....not AESA as certain fanboys are raving about. Interesting article though. It has a fairly long list of failures of systems and a severe time delay.



The radar is based on Elta 2032 info on this radar is
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=21248&lang=en

Israel and India is working on a radar based on Elta 2052 (AESA) 
I have only one image related to this will dig more info and post it here

RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace

So there is a definite path for AESA.


----------



## EagleEyes

KLJ-7 is a pretty good radar. Dont underestimate it. It is a derivative of the KLJ-10.

Fits the perfect role.


----------



## Neo

nitesh said:


> The radar is based on Elta 2032 info on this radar is
> http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=21248&lang=en
> 
> Israel and India is working on a radar based on Elta 2052 (AESA)
> I have only one image related to this will dig more info and post it here
> 
> RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace
> 
> So there is a definite path for AESA.



Whats the timeframe for developping and integrating this radar into LCA?
What about structural changes to the airframe and nose?


----------



## nitesh

Neo said:


> Whats the timeframe for developping and integrating this radar into LCA?
> What about structural changes to the airframe and nose?



Well Neo, I just posted that there is a roadmap for AESA. I don't think there is any concrete info available as of now in this regard.


----------



## nitesh

Neo said:


> Whats the timeframe for developping and integrating this radar into LCA?
> What about structural changes to the airframe and nose?



Neo,

After googling, I found some info regarding the AESA, but these doesn't mention about the timeframe 

Non-American AESA radar developments, page 1

Broadsword: Tejas LCA to get high-tech AESA radar


----------



## nitesh

Neo said:


> Whats the timeframe for developping and integrating this radar into LCA?
> What about structural changes to the airframe and nose?



Well Neo, I was searching for the AESA equipped fighters, but couldn't find any countries fighters which are quipped with AESA. AESA is in various stages of development/trials by europeans/russians/Israelis but not operational. So I think this question is too early to be answered at this time.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh sure, I agree.
> 
> I just wanted to point out that the fact that Pakistan had not selected one for the first batch of 40-50 does not mean the options are not there or that it will not be equipped with it later.
> 
> I think your point is completely valid, that the PAF wanted its first batch of AC in the air and its pilots familiarized with it - no better way to further develop/troubleshoot your equipment.



Well the Fact is that "Baggers are not choosers" Since Last two years i was hearing that PAF looking for Western Radar and System ..... i also heard that they talking with Italy for Radar... but after so much .... in reality 50 planes armed with Chinese radar. Its not PAF choice its Chinese who call the shots.

Well this is what Indian Scientist is doing fine tuning and troubleshooting it.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SU 30 MKI said:


> Well the Fact is that "Baggers are not choosers" Since Last two years i was hearing that PAF looking for Western Radar and System ..... i also heard that they talking with Italy for Radar... but after so much .... in reality 50 planes armed with Chinese radar. Its not PAF choice its Chinese who call the shots.
> 
> Well this is what Indian Scientist is doing fine tuning and troubleshooting it.



The Chinese radar came up to Pakistan's expectations for the short term, and Pakistan is still looking for the best deal - the grifo 7 is being licensed produced in Pakistan I believe, so the issue is not with any of these companies selling to us, but the fact that the requirements of the PAF for the radar they want have changed.

The Chinese may still get the second block order - depends on what they come up with. Till then the PAF is best served by continuing to shop around, till the second block production begins, rather than committing to a purchase and finding out a better value was available later.

The "fact" is that Pakistan will have fifty fighters in the air with weapons and other systems integration and pilots getting familiarized with the equipment.

The scientists can test all they want - they can even produce a hundred LCA's and test them every day - it is getting the AC into the hands of the AF and the pilots that is the real achievement.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

Neo said:


> Already answered by Keys.
> 
> Selection of Chinese radar, avionics and weapon suite is contract bound for the first batch of 50 (not 40) JF-17's giving the fact that it has to meet PAF's ASR. We're satisfied with KLJ for the time being.
> 
> Aesa when available will only be fitted in Block II which can be expected from mid 2010.



Well ...Then IAF ASR requirement is quite above then PAF ASR, IAF is not Satisfied which lesser technology it already have in other planes. It only want advance plane then current inventory


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SU 30 MKI said:


> Well ...Then IAF ASR requirement is quite above then PAF ASR, IAF is not Satisfied which lesser technology it already have in other planes. It only want advance plane then current inventory



A decent AC is better than no AC, especially when the possibility of phased upgrades is there.

This is especially true given the reports of severe fighter shortage in the IAF, pilots being grounded due to lack of AC, and the proposal being floated that the IAF should acquire used Mirage 2000's or Sukhois.

The first 50 Thunders will also end up being eventually upgraded to most of the systems in the subsequent blocks.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A decent AC is better than no AC, especially when the possibility of phased upgrades is there.
> 
> This is especially true given the reports of severe fighter shortage in the IAF, pilots being grounded due to lack of AC, and the proposal being floated that the IAF should acquire used Mirage 2000's or Sukhois.
> 
> The first 50 Thunders will also end up being eventually upgraded to most of the systems in the subsequent blocks.



well you are right IAF is shortage of plane but you didnt read the fine line ...... what many plane of 80's do that can be done by just one Advance Plane.

So what 100 SU 30 Can do can only be done by 400 + MIGS  Got it.


----------



## SU 30 MKI

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Chinese radar came up to Pakistan's expectations for the short term, and Pakistan is still looking for the best deal - the grifo 7 is being licensed produced in Pakistan I believe, so the issue is not with any of these companies selling to us, but the fact that the requirements of the PAF for the radar they want have changed.
> 
> The Chinese may still get the second block order - depends on what they come up with. Till then the PAF is best served by continuing to shop around, till the second block production begins, rather than committing to a purchase and finding out a better value was available later.
> 
> The "fact" is that Pakistan will have fifty fighters in the air with weapons and other systems integration and pilots getting familiarized with the equipment.
> 
> The scientists can test all they want - they can even produce a hundred LCA's and test them every day - it is getting the AC into the hands of the AF and the pilots that is the real achievement.



Well the thing is that PAF dont have any plan for JF 17, what they want and what is road map regarding to JF 17. The Chinese Radar well cant say what is it specifications they have.

What is the Status of WS engine is? dont know.... yet

Well what is the dead line of getting these 50 planes??


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SU 30 MKI said:


> Well the thing is that PAF dont have any plan for JF 17, what they want and what is road map regarding to JF 17. The Chinese Radar well cant say what is it specifications they have.



The roadmap is there - parts of it have been released to the public and mentioned several times on this thread and elsewhere. You are either not paying attention or refuse to accept the points made.

Better radar, composites, more hard points, Air refueling, new engine etc.


> What is the Status of WS engine is? dont know.... yet


The WS-13 does not matter as much - the RD-93 has been cleared for export, and the JF-17 can function with that until the WS-13 comes on line. 



> Well what is the dead line of getting these 50 planes??


That will depend upon how much damage the production lines in China have suffered. We will find out by the end of this year whether the manufacturing process was impacted in any substantial way.

I can't remember off hand if we were supposed to get 15 AC this year or 25..


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SU 30 MKI said:


> well you are right IAF is shortage of plane but you didnt read the fine line ...... what many plane of 80's do that can be done by just one Advance Plane.
> 
> So what 100 SU 30 Can do can only be done by 400 + MIGS  Got it.


Thats a very bad oversimplification - it isn't merely a case of "1 MKI is equivalent to 4 JF-17's". You have to look at the situation from a much broader view.

The JF-17's linked with AEW&C, with F-16 block 52's and BVRAAM's will be a very potent force (not even including the J-10's).

Also, the Thunder is pretty comparable to everything but the MKI's in the IAF, and better than the AC it is meant to replace in the PAF, and its only going to get better with future upgrades.


----------



## nitesh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Thats a very bad oversimplification - it isn't merely a case of "1 MKI is equivalent to 4 JF-17's". You have to look at the situation from a much broader view.
> 
> The JF-17's linked with AEW&C, with F-16 block 52's and BVRAAM's will be a very potent force (not even including the J-10's).
> 
> Also, the Thunder is pretty comparable to everything but the MKI's in the IAF, and better than the AC it is meant to replace in the PAF, and its only going to get better with future upgrades.



He has not said 1 Su30 is equal to 4JF-17 he said 1 Su30 equal to 4 Mig21. So dont twist the words here. What Indian planes will be without AEW&C support.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

nitesh said:


> He has not said 1 Su30 is equal to 4JF-17 he said 1 Su30 equal to 4 Mig21. So dont twist the words here. What Indian planes will be without AEW&C support.



His point is the same, if you look at the context in which he replied, so I am not "twisting words" here. I can only interpret what he posts, if he mean to say something else, I would welcome a clarification and retract my post.

The JF-17 and LCA are in a completely different class than the MKI - so even attempting a comparison is ridiculous.

Even if you provide comparable supporting assets to each side, the dynamics are not reduced to a simplistic "4 JF-17's to 1 MKI" calculus. 

And regardless, the Thunder will be up with the falcons, which is the comparable AC to the MKI on the PAF side (systems capability-wise, if not class) - and so SU30's comparison of Thunders to MKI's becomes even more pointless. 

Anyway, the larger point here is that the JF-17, even in its current config., is better than the AC it is replacing in the PAF, and comparable to the most of the IAF fighters. With the upgrades planed for block 2 and onwards (some of which I mentioned above) it is perhaps going to become comparable to the Block52's, and the argument of "inferior aircraft" becomes ridiculous.

So it is by no means a question of "settling for an inferior AC", as SU30 wants to paint it.

*EDIT:* Add to the list of planned upgrades, a possible two seater version, news of which has been posted by Fatman17 in the JF-17 Thread.


----------



## p2prada

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Thats a very bad oversimplification - it isn't merely a case of "1 MKI is equivalent to 4 JF-17's". You have to look at the situation from a much broader view.



the poster dint say it head to head. he meant it by capabilities wise. the MKI can drop 8tons of payload an stay up in air for more than 10 hours(with air to air refuel). wouldnt that beat even 4 Mig21s from strategic point of view.



> The JF-17's linked with AEW&C, with F-16 block 52's and BVRAAM's will be a very potent force (not even including the J-10's).



Similarly, MKIs and LCA will have better AWACs support and GCI. Dont forget one modified greenpine radar or the LRTR is already operational. It is a completely different topic of discussion. 



> Also, the Thunder is pretty comparable to everything but the MKI's in the IAF, and better than the AC it is meant to replace in the PAF, and its only going to get better with future upgrades.



The mirage2000s and Mig-29 are being upgraded. U mean to say the JF-17 are better than the Mig-29SMT. The upgraded migs will compare to the F-16s and not the JF-17s.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

p2prada said:


> the poster dint say it head to head. he meant it by capabilities wise. the MKI can drop 8tons of payload an stay up in air for more than 10 hours(with air to air refuel). wouldnt that beat even 4 Mig21s from strategic point of view.
> 
> Similarly, MKIs and LCA will have better AWACs support and GCI. Dont forget one modified greenpine radar or the LRTR is already operational. It is a completely different topic of discussion.
> 
> The mirage2000s and Mig-29 are being upgraded. U mean to say the JF-17 are better than the Mig-29SMT. The upgraded migs will compare to the F-16s and not the JF-17s.



You and nitesh are both ignoring the context of the posters remarks. He quite clearly stated that the PAF was settling for an inferior AC, and that perhaps the PAF ASR was lower than that of the IAF. He then proceeded to make the comment regarding 400 migs vs 100 MKI - there is nothing else that can be interpreted from his series of comments than what I did.

Now if he wants to admit that was what he wanted to say, he can clarify.

Now regarding the AWACS and whatnot, my reason for mentioning them is not that the IAF will not have them (which is the only thing you guys keep focusing, despite the fact that I never said anything about the IAF not having them) - but because of various supporting assets and net centric capabilities, a simple platform to platform comparison, and then a declaration of "inferiority" is a flawed analysis.

The individual capabilities of the Thunder and the LCA are similarly lower than those of the MKI - so going by yours and SU30's analysis, one has to wonder why India is bothering to develop a fighter that would be "inferior" to the MKI.

There is a place for such platforms in the IAF and PAF, in support of other platforms and just because they cannot carry as much ordinance a the MKI, or fly as far, does not mean they are inferior.

Any way, this thread is turning into a JF-17 thread. 

Back to the discussions regarding LCA.


----------



## nitesh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You and nitesh are both ignoring the context of the posters remarks. He quite clearly stated that the PAF was settling for an inferior AC, and that perhaps the PAF ASR was lower than that of the IAF. He then proceeded to make the comment regarding 400 migs vs 100 MKI - there is nothing else that can be interpreted from his series of comments than what I did.
> 
> Now if he wants to admit that was what he wanted to say, he can clarify.
> 
> Now regarding the AWACS and whatnot, my reason for mentioning them is not that the IAF will not have them (which is the only thing you guys keep focusing, despite the fact that I never said anything about the IAF not having them) - but because of various supporting assets and net centric capabilities, a simple platform to platform comparison, and then a declaration of "inferiority" is a flawed analysis.
> 
> The individual capabilities of the Thunder and the LCA are similarly lower than those of the MKI - so going by yours and SU30's analysis, one has to wonder why India is bothering to develop a fighter that would be "inferior" to the MKI.
> 
> There is a place for such platforms in the IAF and PAF, in support of other platforms and just because they cannot carry as much ordinance a the MKI, or fly as far, does not mean they are inferior.
> 
> Any way, this thread is turning into a JF-17 thread.
> 
> Back to the discussions regarding LCA.




Well LCA is supposed to replace the MiG21 so comparing with MKI is not the right way. Yes your point is correct, this thread is getting off topic. let us get back to the point

Radar-fitted Tejas this year-Nagpur-Cities-The Times of India
When LSP3 is supposed to be flying, as LSP2 is already in the air?

Based on the updates on ADA site, check this

(24-June-08)Tejas-LCA
LCA-Tejas has completed 897 Test Flights successfully. (24-June-08).

* LCA has completed 897 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-275,PV1-169,PV2-102,PV3-88,LSP1-27,LSP2-3).
* 03rd flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 23rd June 08.


----------



## nitesh

little bit off topic, but I thought no point in opening a new thread.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...nal-displays-for-su-30-fighters_10066238.html

Samtel, DARE develop multi-functional displays for Su-30 fighters

June 30th, 2008 - 7:59 pm ICT by IANS


New Delhi, June 30 (IANS) *Samtel Display Systems has become the first Indian company to indigenise multi-functional displays (MFDs) for the Sukhoi Su-30 combat jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and has received clearance for their flight testing, it was announced here Monday. The MFDs have been jointly developed and manufactured with the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), an arm of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).*

They will now be flight-tested by the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) at Nashik in Maharashtra, following which the IAF will put them through flight trials.

RCMA looks after the military airworthiness aspects of all products supplied to IAF. It is an arm of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) that is manufacturing the Su-30 under licence.

*The MFD is a device that puts all aircraft systems, monitoring and flight planning functions at the pilot&#8217;s fingertips. It paints a composite view of the aircraft&#8217;s environment, providing the pilot with all necessary information to make safe decisions during every phase of flight.*

Engine performance and situational data such as location, terrain, traffic, weather and airport information are all digitally depicted and can be quickly interpreted at a glance on a large-format display.

Initially, the Samtel-DARE MFDs were subject to extensive ground tests on a Su-30 integration rig. The tests were conducted during both daylight hours and in the night to evaluate the display characteristics of the MFD under varying light conditions.

*Four test sorties were undertaken at an altitude of approximately 40,000 ft with the indigenous MFD for its evaluation, &#8220;and no failure was observed&#8221;,* a company statement said, adding: &#8220;Samtel will implement minor improvements suggested by the flight crew.&#8221;

Commenting on the landmark achievement, Samtel group chairman and managing director Satish Kaura said, &#8220;The flight testing of the indigenous MFDs underscores Samtel&#8217;s commitment to produce high quality, high performance avionics equipment and systems for our customers both in the Indian and international arena.

&#8220;It reinforces our endeavours to develop and provide indigenous technology developed to meet Export market and defence offset requirements by overseas clients,&#8221; Kaura added.

*Samtel Display Systems has a joint venture with HAL to produce indigenous next-generation MFDs, HUDs (head up displays) and HMD (helmet mounted displays) for HAL star programmes like the Su-30, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) and the intermediate jet trainer (IJT).*

*Along with this, Samtel has also entered a JV with French electronics major Thales to work towards the indigenous development, production, sale and maintenance of helmet mounted sight & displays (HMSDs) and other avionics for the Indian market.*

Samtel Display Systems (SDS) is a key player in manufacturing high-technology equipment for avionics, military and professional applications in the international arena.

SDS is a part of the Samtel group, India&#8217;s largest integrated manufacturer of a wide range of displays for television, avionics, industrial, medical and professional applications, TV glass, components for displays, machinery and engineering services.

The group employs 6,000 people in nine world-class factories and has an annual turnover of Rs.12 billion ($300 million).

DARE initially started as a project laboratory for DRDO&#8217;s Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) that was established in 1986 to enhance the operational capabilities of the IAF through modern technologies.

Over the last decade, DARE has made rapid progress in the areas of airborne electronic warfare, airborne processors and testing and evaluation of electronic warfare systems.

It has implemented concepts in concurrent engineering in partnership with Indian industry to achieve shorter design-to-induction time frames and seamless transfer of technology.

DARE has two major wings - the electronic warfare (EW) wing and the mission avionics wing (MAW).


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## Munir

The main problem is that LCA is outdated delta design and being lightweight yet overweighted and still not in radar and weapon integration we can skip this as a potent utility. The problem with posters is that one the one side they use non canards as being superb yet on the other side MKI is superb thanks to its canrds. The posters have no aeronautical knowledge. Surely yhe delta can turn fast but do look at the size of the parts to make it move and do look at the fact that it is all out of energy and a sitting duck after that move...

We have to see haw well JF17 performs but it will be inducted and sofar the tests look promising. The Thunder II is still a deisgners nightmare to be optimized but it will eventually be good enough. Looking at Indian products and their performances sofar I doubt that LCA wil ever get that far. Nothing personal but purely logic.


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## nitesh

Munir said:


> The main problem is that LCA is outdated delta design and being lightweight yet overweighted and still not in radar and weapon integration we can skip this as a potent utility. The problem with posters is that one the one side they use non canards as being superb yet on the other side MKI is superb thanks to its canrds. The posters have no aeronautical knowledge. Surely yhe delta can turn fast but do look at the size of the parts to make it move and do look at the fact that it is all out of energy and a sitting duck after that move...
> 
> We have to see haw well JF17 performs but it will be inducted and sofar the tests look promising. The Thunder II is still a deisgners nightmare to be optimized but it will eventually be good enough. Looking at Indian products and their performances sofar I doubt that LCA wil ever get that far. Nothing personal but purely logic.



Regards being canards or no canards

it's a bit difficult to say that before the testing is completed.

what we can say is that adding canards to LCA won't give it a significant performance advantage over it's current capabilities, which is why the designers discarded the canards in the first place.
initial LCA models had canards.

what you have to understand is that there can be different ways of approaching a particular problem, each with it's own set of pros and cons. that means while performance can be compared, you can't compare a/c on design features alone. the LCA's cranked delta configuration is a very novel approach to the maneuverability problem.
canards certainly aren't the most advanced idea that has happened to a/c, if you are thinking on those lines. e.g the latest avatar of the flanker, the su-35 doesn't carry canards.

And btw please dont again turn it to LCA vs JF-17 thread.


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## nitesh

Broadsword: The latest on the LSP-3: from my visit to HAL

Some news on LSP3


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## JEFF

Munir said:


> The main problem is that LCA is outdated delta design and being lightweight yet overweighted and still not in radar and weapon integration we can skip this as a potent utility.



Offcourse you can skip this as a potent utility, often it becomes biggest irony that sometimes some people simply choose to overlook all other elements that are very critical for fighter jet development. Regarding your aspect of overweight, to tackle it new GE engine with higher output thrust has already been fitted and tested on it and hence you can skip this shortfall. Regarding its outdated delta design, if I ever follow your line of thinking then I will have to assume that various other fighter jets in the world having similar feature especially of Mirage type are also absolute designs.



Munir said:


> The problem with posters is that one the one side they use non canards as being superb yet on the other side MKI is superb thanks to its canrds. The posters have no aeronautical knowledge.



Which is definitely the case as far as your this posting posting and commenting is concerned. Because you don&#8217;t even know what Tejas Delta design is made of. LCA has a cranked, compound hybrid delta design and hence canards were dropped as they didn&#8217;t offer any advantage or enhance its maneuverability in Tejas design configuration.



Munir said:


> Surely yhe delta can turn fast but do look at the size of the parts to make it move and do look at the fact that it is all out of energy and a sitting duck after that move...



Sitting duck, hmmm&#8230;. Don&#8217;t worry this delta design is also fitted with FBW to deal with its instability. And let me remind you, Have you ever heard about BVR? Before that deficiency beginning to take toll over the aircraft with delta wing, by then that delta design fitted with BVR already done its magic of shooting down its opponents leaving very little space for crying over its lack of energy.



Munir said:


> We have to see haw well JF17 performs but it will be inducted and sofar the tests look promising. The Thunder II is still a deisgners nightmare to be optimized but it will eventually be good enough.



So you also manage to forcast the performance of Thunder II even without its first test flights, so optimistic, I guess optimism has no place in the knowledge of aeronautics. 



Munir said:


> Looking at Indian products and their performances sofar I doubt that LCA wil ever get that far.



Oh really, how convenient for you to discount the performance of LCA upon the induction of JF-17, by the way our MCA has already been on its way, I am just reminding you if you are so oblivion to it.



Munir said:


> Nothing personal but purely logic.



Huh? Was it really a logic? I think there has been a sufficient data being available all over the place about the deficiencies of Delta design upon which you have drawn your so called logic, but also take some precautions while analyzing the measures that has been adopted to avert those deficiencies. I hope you should refrain from drawing such a horrible kind of a logics.


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## nitesh

Posting news about dhruv also:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080714&fname=Helicopter+&#37;28F)&sid=1&pn=1


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## nitesh

News on LSP 4 and LSP 5
Broadsword: LSP-4 and LSP-5: update and pics


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## nitesh

I thought not to open a new thread, so just posting the news here

Defence works to unmanned vehicle production, DEMA comes of age - ExpressIndia.Com

Defence works to unmanned vehicle production, DEMA comes of age

Pune July 08 First lot of off-the-shelf products to include mini UAV and fuses for armaments; land sought at Talegaon, Dehu Road for Defence industry cluster
For over 15 years, the city-based Defence Equipment Manufacturers Association (DEMA), a consortium of 38 small and medium enterprises, developed and tested sub-systems and components as required by the Defence sector. Realising that the time has come to graduate into active production, DEMA is now working on the first lot of off-the-shelf products which will include a mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and fuses for armaments, to be ready by 2010.

Now we will be developing and producing multi-disciplinary systems and put them up for off-the-shelf purchase, said DEMA President D S Kamlapurkar. Around 10 of DEMAs members have formed a separate manufacturing entity - by the name of DEMA Mechatronics  which will engage in the development, manufacturing and marketing of the complete systems.

By 2010, DEMA Mechatronics plans to build up the capacity to produce around 100 UAVs and 2 lakh variable time fuses and around 50,000 proximity fuses per year. We will initially manufacture around 2 lakh variable time fuses and gradually increase the number to 5 lakh per year, said Kamlapurkar. We are also venturing into indigenous production of proximity fuses.

The UAV will be an upgraded version of the Vihanga Netra, the first effort of the DEMA consortium using Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) funds, said Yogendra Jagirdar of Jagirdar Aeroproducts, which is in charge of designing and making the UAV aircraft, its field-testing and operation. This will be our second attempt at manufacturing UAVs after the Vihang Netras, he added.

There will be additional features like night vision compatibility, map overlays and the ability to lock on to a target. It will be a wheeled version, compact compared to the Vihang Netra, and weighing 25-40 kg. It will possess a range of 10 km, an altitude of 1.5 km and a speed of 100 km per hour.

Dema is planning the UAV for the civil sector as well. The UAV can be used for non-defence forces as well, like the police or even paramilitary troops for surveillance, said Kamlapurkar.

While fuses and UAVs are DEMAs priority projects for full-fledged production right now, some of its members are also involved in producing moving targets and the association will gradually delve into the production of smart weapons.

At present the Vihang Netra is being used as a moving target and we are planning to produce more targets for defence use. We also plan to produce smart mines, which are activated by remote, shoulder rocket launchers etc. The technology is already a part of some other products and we will just have to adapt them to develop the proposed products, explained Kamlapurkar.

Dema has been requesting the Ministry of Defence and the State and Central governments to grant 5-100 acres for a Defence industry cluster near Pune. The plan is to allocate each unit on one-acre plots. We have located land at Talegaon and Dehu Road, said Kamlapurkar who added that DEMA would be sending a detailed proposal on the cluster demand to the MoD soon.


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## nitesh

A Complete News Magazine on National Security

&#8216;I am confident that the new engine will satisfy the IAF and they will release the order for more number of aircrafts beyond 40&#8217;


Intro: Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, P.S. Subramanyam


One keeps hearing conflicting stories on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). What is the update on the project?

To understand the LCA, it is necessary to go to the beginning. People say that the project started in 1983. The truth is that the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) itself was not available in 1983. All that had happened was that the country had conceptually decided on a need for the LCA and a sanction of Rs 560 crore was made. It took about five to six years to arrive at a definition of what the LCA should be. The ASR was given in 1985 and by 1988 we understood what the air force was looking for. After this, we started the project definition studies and the summary of these studies stated that seven prototypes should be made as is normally done all over the world. But in 1990-91, the government felt that so much of a risk could not be taken and the requirement of seven prototypes was split into two phases: two technology demonstrators (TD) followed by five prototypes. In the TD stage we were told that no sensor or weaponisation was required; only certain technologies were to be demonstrated. In April 1993, an amount of Rs 2,188 crore was allocated only for the TD, implying that before this, funds were not available to launch the full scale programme. The technologies needed to be demonstrated were composite-based wing structure, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, all digital avionics and computer-based control of electro-mechanical systems.

In January 2001, the TD1 was flown and the government saw the promise in the programme. In November 2001, the government gave the go-ahead to start work on the proto-vehicles (PV), which are basically meant for sensors and weapons&#8217; integration. Till this time, the government did not fund us to make a fighting machine or PVs for which funds to the tune of Rs 3301 crore were released then. The sanction fund of Rs 3,301 crore is not only for the proto-vehicles but for the limited serial production (LSP) of eight aircraft, including the infrastructure needed for them to establish a production line of eight aircraft per annum. This was the turning point for the programme. In June 2002, we flew the TD2 and in November 2003, we flew PV1.

There was a transformation at this stage as we realised that an entire generation of electronics had changed by 2001. Fortunately, by 1998-99, we decided to make the entire avionics of the aircraft with an open system of architecture. Hence, the PV2 that flew in December 2005 was with an open system of architecture. The advantage is that it allows us to tackle obsolescence of electronic hardware. In this process, we were able to make nearly 80 per cent of avionics indigenously. Today, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is very happy with us on this issue because we have the most current concept of avionics in the aircraft. In December 2006 we flew PV3, and in April 2007 the LSP1 version. The LSP2 was flown recently in June 2008. Today, we have seven aircraft in flying condition: TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1 and LSP2. Our first trainer aircraft is round the corner, probably in another two months. We are now very close to programme completion. We are looking for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2010 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2012. In March 2006, the IAF placed the order for 20 aircraft in IOC configuration.

Today, in terms of the aircraft, we look at two major aspects. The first is the flight envelope expansion, implying the altitude and speed of the aircraft as well as acceleration and manoeuvres. In this respect, we have already validated all the parameters except the angle of attack. We are presently, at 20 when the required is 22. The second aspect is sensors and weapons integration. We have integrated the day and night attack sensor system, what is called the Litening Pod and the helmet-mounted display system (HMDS) for slewing the radar and litening pod towards the target. What is now pending is radar integration and release of weapons. We did the sea trials in June 2007 at Arakonam. In November 2007, we fired a close combat missile (CCM) from the aircraft in Goa and recently (May 28-June 4) we completed the hot weather trials in Nagpur.

What more needs to be done before you go for IOC?

Nothing more for IOC. Only for the FOC, we are planning to integrate the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile and some more conventional weapons.

If nothing else is left to be accomplished before IOC, why are you waiting till 2010?

We have to do a lot of testing to characterise the performance of the aircraft and give that data to the IAF and demonstrate weapon system performance.

But isn&#8217;t this done after the IOC when the maturity and maintainability of the aircraft is validated? I want to give user most of the performance data of the fighter version before the IOC is done.

How many flying hours have you done till now?

There are two things here: number of flights and flying hours. The flying hour aspect is really insignificant. We have done a total of 895 flights.

But how many flying hours have you done?

Could be 500 hours.

Aren&#8217;t these less?

The flying hours are not important. For any evaluation, the important thing is the number of test-points. Mere flying does not add any value to the test-points that have to be covered. There are many test-points that have to be validated. For example, I want to see the altitude and speed changes that the aircraft can do in a given time. Besides, I also need to perform certain manoeuvres, like a roller coaster and so on to characterise the aircraft. Generate enough data to chatacterise the aircraft.

There were reports that all parameters were not met during the hot weather trials. The reports mentioned that the acceleration was less.

The idea of the hot weather trial is to find out how aircraft performance changes with temperature, as the engine performance decreases with the rise in temperature. While I am satisfied with the acceleration that we got, this may not really be the desired one. We used GE 404 F2J3 engine for the test. However, the latest test of LSP 2 was done with GE 404 IN20 engine, which is slightly more powerful than the earlier one. The IAF, in what are called the Air Staff Requirements (ASR), is asking for certain parameters to be met. Both the engines now fitted on the LCA do not meet the ASR completely. But what is expected from these engines, they have performed during hot weather trials.

If the aircraft does not meet the ASR of the IAF, then how will the user have confidence in the machine?

I would say that our design has performed. The engine is designed to perform against the drag parameters that it has done. However, this falls a little short of IAF&#8217;s ASR. It will only be possible to meet the ASR if we go in for a new engine.

Where is this new engine?

Currently, some studies are going on. By the end of this year we propose to go to the IAF to tell them about the short-listed engines, which would be close to ASR. The air force will decide what is best suited to them.

If you are proposing a new engine then why are you at this stage talking about the IOC?

The reason the general ASR has not been met is because the aircraft has grown heavy. The IAF is fully aware of this. So when it asked for a squadron of the LCA, even before the IOC it means that they have specific utility for this aircraft, with its present parameters. For example, the aircraft at present gives 6g manoeuvres while the eventual requirement of the ASR is 8g. But that is at the FOC stage. What we have demonstrated to them today is a de-rated performance which is still acceptable to them for the initial squadron. This however, can be enhanced later.

The world over nobody talks of a new aircraft with less than 1,000 flying hours. But you seem satisfied with 500 flying hours. What is the reason for that?

It is the test points that matter, not flying hours. Earlier, we did not have the drop tanks and each flight used to be 30-35 minutes. The recent flights that we have undertaken have been as long as 90 minutes. This can accommodate more test points per sortie. You can ask the air force if they will be happy with more flying hours but fewer validations of test-points. The answer will be no. Moreover, between now and the IOC, I will still be required to validate more than 3,000 performance test-points. Hence, I am looking at 500-600 more flights, which will further increase the flying hours. If I am ready with my sensors, weapons and drop tanks, I do not have to worry about how many flying hours the aircraft has done but, I have to worry about test-points completed. For your information, the deputy chief of air staff does a review of the project with us once every month. He is clear that unless flying is done to validate test points, it is no good. If I am able to complete my remaining 3,000 plus test points in another 500 hours of flying, I will be very satisfied. There are no specified numbers of flying hours or test flights for IOC completion. Right now, we are doing 20 test flights per month. With more aircraft available, both the IAF and I feel that we can go up to 30 test flights each month and I can test five to 10 test-points per test flight. As I mentioned, the key test-points that we are looking to validate are various manoeuvres and weapon system performance.

Will you able to meet the production requirement of 20 LCA by 2011?

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is the production agency. We have about 7,000 parts to be fabricated. Of this 60-70 percent work has been outsourced as that kind of technology is available in the country. They are capable of achieving it.

You mentioned that you have achieved the angle of attack of 20, while you need to go to 22. How will you do this without knowledge transfer from an outside partner especially when there are reports that you have been in unsuccessful talks with Boeing on this issue?

My experience with flying is that we are very conservative when assessing our test-points. We are very conservative with our assessments whereas in actual operational flying such rigidity need not be followed. We need to increase the angle of attack very carefully but optimally. Let me explain it this way. Without consultancy, I will achieve the desired angle of attack in probably 100 flights. With consultancy, I may require just 50 flights.

You have essentially made two points. One, that the only important thing is validation of test points and not flying hours; and two, if you validate optimal test points you will be able to achieve the desired angle of attack in short duration.

Given that you are already looking for a new engine, what is the future of Kaveri engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)?

Let us be realistic about the engine. Making a gas turbine engine for a fighter jet is a very complex issue. Very few countries in the world have been able to develop it successfully. Since starting the LCA programme, the weight of the aircraft has grown up significantly; yet I must tell you that at 6.5 tons the LCA is one of the lightest aircraft of its class in the world. Kaveri engine was fine for the LCA programme when it started. But as we have shifted the goal-post, which is the LCA weight, the Kaveri engine does not meet the ASR requirement. In the meantime, I am also requesting GTRE that technologies are available in the world to make the Kaveri engine fulfil the ASR requirements. Even if they take more years instead of four to make an indigenous engine with collaboration from outside, it would be very good. The IAF has said that its requirement of LCA could be in significant numbers. Once the suitable indigenous Kaveri is made it can be fitted to the LCA still under production. The Kaveri has given a good performance which is not easy to get. If we are able to bring Kaveri to the desired standards, it will be a major achievement. If you discontinue Kaveri now, you will kill the engine technology in India.

Are you satisfied with pace of programme?

I suggest you take a holistic view of the programme unlike the aircraft development programme in the rest of the world. In this programme, the initial sanction was only for technology demonstrators. Funds were not available for stock-piling the equipments and parts for continuing the programme, many of which became obsolete over time. Also, during the technology demonstration phase, the emphasis was not on operational over view. The development phases were sequential instead of being concurrent.

When will you do Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) validation? Isn&#8217;t it done after the IOC?

I will do it in the LSP3 aircraft scheduled for August 2008. The design, development and ground testing of the MMR are over. I will start with the test flights in September 2008.

How closely is the IAF reviewing this project?

The Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS) reviews the progress every month. The Chief of the Air Staff reviews every three months. When we reach a stage of 1,000 flights we will take stock of major course corrections and decisions.

Do you have any orders from the Indian Navy?

We don&#8217;t have any orders right now. However, we have been given funds for two prototypes as they want to see the performance of the aircraft.

At this stage, what is your roadmap for the LCA programme?

I am clear that I will get another 20 aircraft order from the IAF in the second half of 2008. Moreover, by 2012-2013, I am certain to demonstrate the re-engined aircraft to the IAF. I am confident that the new engine will satisfy the IAF requirements and they will release the order for number of aircrafts beyond 40.

Will the FOC be on the present engine?

Yes, the FOC be on the present GE 404 IN20 engine by 2012. However, around this time, I will also fly the aircraft with the alternate engine.

Will you demonstrate the BVR technology with the present engine for the FOC?

Yes. The navy has already specified the Israeli missile. However, the IAF is still to decide on this issue.

What has the Tejas programme achieved for the country?

I think we need to look at things in the right perspective. The LCA programme has lifted the technology plane of India. For example, in the area of composite structures, 90 per cent of the surface area of the LCA is made of composites, which is the highest in the world. Among the technologies are digital fly-by-wire, digital avionics and computer-controlled electro-mechanical systems. There are more than 45 computers networked and made to work together in the aircraft which is a technology challenge. The country has mastered the fourth generation technologies and is marching towards the fifth generation technologies. All this is due to the Tejas programme.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

This is good news, this will help IAF increas the bombing accuracy

Israel to supply India with Griffin 3 bomb guidance kits

Israel to supply India with Griffin 3 bomb guidance kits

The Indian air force will procure Israel Aerospace Industries' Griffin 3 laser-guided bomb.
Produced by IAI's MBT division, the Griffin 3 is the most advanced version of a combat-proven guidance kit, which turns "dumb" bombs into highly accurate weapons with a claimed circular error of probability of less than 2m (6.5ft).
The conversion kit is compatible with the Mk82/83/84 general purpose bomb series, and comprises a front guidance section and a rear section with steering fins. The Griffin 3 provides a 12km (6.5nm) stand-off range against ground targets, while its flight trajectory and impact angle can be pre-programmed.
MBT claims the kit has a "much lower" price tag than comparable weapon systems.


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## Myth_buster_1

*first 40 LCA inducted in IAF will not be combat capable... 
20 LCA by 2011 and the other 20 by 2016. Therefore 40 by 2016
LCAs will not have AESA and Kaveri Engine before the MK3 tranche which will be inducted in 2025.*


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## nitesh

23march said:


> *first 40 LCA inducted in IAF will not be combat capable...
> 20 LCA by 2011 and the other 20 by 2016. Therefore 40 by 2016
> LCAs will not have AESA and Kaveri Engine before the MK3 tranche which will be inducted in 2025.*



23 march

The first article is full of errors:

The IAF ASR is for AoA of 22 not 21 and AoA of 20 has been achieved not 17 as claimed in that article.

The last link you have posted is just a suggestion not the way it will be done.

Kindly read the things properly before posting it.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## vish

23march said:


> *first 40 LCA inducted in IAF will not be combat capable...
> 20 LCA by 2011 and the other 20 by 2016. Therefore 40 by 2016
> LCAs will not have AESA and Kaveri Engine before the MK3 tranche which will be inducted in 2025.*



You sure you posted the right links?


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> 23 march
> 
> The first article is full of errors:
> 
> The IAF ASR is for AoA of 22 not 21 and AoA of 20 has been achieved not 17 as claimed in that article.
> 
> The last link you have posted is just a suggestion not the way it will be done.
> 
> Kindly read the things properly before posting it.



do you have any reference to your claim that LCA with underpowered engine has achieved AOA of 20??


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## nitesh

23march said:


> do you have any reference to your claim that LCA with underpowered engine has achieved AOA of 20??



kindly check the post no. 603

this is the latest interview published of the program director of LCA the points you are mentioning are old as compared to this, anyway for easy read



> You mentioned that you have achieved the angle of attack of 20, while you need to go to 22. How will you do this without knowledge transfer from an outside partner especially when there are reports that you have been in unsuccessful talks with Boeing on this issue?
> 
> My experience with flying is that we are very conservative when assessing our test-points. We are very conservative with our assessments whereas in actual operational flying such rigidity need not be followed. We need to increase the angle of attack very carefully but optimally. Let me explain it this way. Without consultancy, I will achieve the desired angle of attack in probably 100 flights. With consultancy, I may require just 50 flights.


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## Myth_buster_1

It is still below the ASR.
The same interview also states that :
First 40 will not meet the ASR.
LCA at present is only pulling 6gs. ASR has been decreased to 8gs from 9g 
Empty weight of LCA is 6.5 tons now. "gained extra 2,000kg of fat"


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## nitesh

23march said:


> It is still below the ASR.
> The same interview also states that :
> First 40 will not meet the ASR.
> LCA at present is only pulling 6gs. ASR has been decreased to 8gs from 9g
> Empty weight of LCA is 6.5 tons now. "gained extra 2,000kg of fat"



you again read the post 603 again correct, 



> If you are proposing a new engine then why are you at this stage talking about the IOC?
> 
> *The reason the general ASR has not been met is because the aircraft has grown heavy. The IAF is fully aware of this. So when it asked for a squadron of the LCA, even before the IOC it means that they have specific utility for this aircraft, with its present parameters. For example, the aircraft at present gives 6g manoeuvres while the eventual requirement of the ASR is 8g. But that is at the FOC stage.* What we have demonstrated to them today is a de-rated performance which is still acceptable to them for the initial squadron. This however, can be enhanced later.


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## Myth_buster_1

LCA MK3 - Only by 2025 will an LCA Mk3 flying with a Kaveri engine and AESA be available. 
only 50 years old?..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> LCA MK3 - Only by 2025 will an LCA Mk3 flying with a Kaveri engine and AESA be available.
> only 50 years old?..



You don't read the interviews fully don't you?

The gentleman is suggesting to be done in that way, not the way it will be done. That is a suggestion, not a final verdict.:cheers


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## nitesh

guys check these article:
Broadsword: Finally, a deadline for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft's new engine
For years, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has argued bitterly with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) --- which is developing India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- over who is to blame for the LCA&#8217;s low engine power. The IAF accuses the ADA of failing to develop a suitable engine; the ADA retorts that the IAF&#8217;s demands for extra combat punch added two tons to the LCA&#8217;s original weight of 8 tons. The naval version of the LCA, with its strengthened undercarriage, will be even heavier.

And with the promised Kaveri engine nowhere in sight, the LCA makes do with the underpowered General Electric F-404 engine. An upgraded version, the IN-20, which will power the first two squadrons of the LCA, provides only marginally more thrust.

But now there&#8217;s a happy ending in sight. Business Standard has learned that the ADA has a deadline of October 2008 to choose between two foreign engines for powering the LCA. The final choice of engine, which will power several hundred Tejas fighters over the next three decades, is between Eurojet&#8217;s EJ200; and the General Electric F-414.

The current GE F-404 IN-20 engine delivers about 82-85 KiloNewtons of thrust, which is adequate for take off and even climbing rapidly, but falls short during combat manoeuvres when the fighter has to turn sharply to fire missiles at enemy aircraft. The EJ200 and the GE F-414 provide 90-95 KiloNewtons of thrust, which the IAF considers adequate.

Both engine manufacturers are lobbying intensively. Which engine is chosen could reverberate beyond the LCA, affecting the selection of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), an $11 billion purchase for which bids have already been submitted. The Anglo-European Eurofighter, a leading contender, is powered by two EJ200 engines. A single GE F-414 engine powers the Swedish Grippen fighter. Both vendors believe that if their engine were selected for the LCA, that could open the door to the MMRCA contract.

The key factor in choosing an engine will be: which one fits into the LCA with the least re-engineering? Each engine has different dimensions and the inlet and exhaust ports are located differently; this means that the LCA airframe will need changes to accommodate the new engine. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Chairman, Ashok Baweja, explains that, &#8220;Any change in the basic structure of the aircraft will mean going through the test and evaluation process all over again. This is a time-consuming business.&#8221;

Selecting the engine will involve difficult choices. IAF sources say the EJ200 will demand less re-engineering; but the GE F-414 will give up to 5 KiloNewtons more of thrust.

Re-engineering the LCA to fit in the engine, and obtaining fresh operational clearances, could take up to three years. Meanwhile HAL will manufacture the first Tejas squadron of 20 fighters with the old GE F-404 IN-20 engine. Top MoD sources confirm to Business Standard that the IAF will shortly order a second squadron of Tejas, also with the GE F-404 IN-20. LCA number 41 onwards will be fitted with the new engine.


Comparison of EJ200 and GE F-414 engines:

EJ 2000 GE F-414-400
Power on reheat 90-92 kNewtons 96-98 kNewtons
Inlet diameter 740 mm 777.24 mm
Cross section 430.1 cm.sq 474.4 cm.sq
Mass flow (Kg/sec) 74 78
Weight 1040 kilos 1110 kilos
Centre of gravity Smaller shift Large shift
Design vintage Late 1990s Late 1970s
Growth potential Up to 30&#37; Far less

(Tomorrow: Powering up the first 40 LCAs, with the IN-20 engine... HAL's plan)


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## nitesh

Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine

The selection of the Tejas LCAs new engine in October --- the choice (as the previous post deals with) is between the Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 --- will provide an extra 10 KiloNewtons of thrust to the Tejas. The new engines, however, will start being fitted onto the third Tejas squadron; the first two squadrons, comprising 40 aircraft, would already be in service with the GE F-404 IN-20 engines.

And so the Indian Air Force (IAF) has asked the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to urgently improve the performance of Tejas LCAs fitted with the GE F-404 IN-20 engines. These will power the first two LCA squadrons consisting of 40 fighters.

I visited HALs Bangalore Complex to see how that is being done. HAL has adopted a three-fold strategy:

1. Improving the air intake. 

Top HAL decision-makers pooh-pooh the IAFs contention that the LCAs air intakes are incorrectly designed, resulting in oxygen starvation and incomplete burning and, therefore, sub-optimal engine power from the F-404s. At the same time, however, steps are being taken to improve air intake, without getting into major redesign that could set back the programme by years. Instead, auxiliary air intakes are being provided on the sides of the Tejas engine housing --- similar to those on the Jaguar (see photos).

These auxiliary air intakes comprise of spring-loaded panels that open when engine suction is very high and provide an additional route for airflow into the engine intakes. As you can see in the photos, the spring-loaded panels can be pushed in by manual pressure.

At critical stages in the flight envelope, such as during take-off, rapid climb, sustained turn and in any case, when afterburners are on the heavy suction from the engines would open the auxiliary air intakes. When the demand for air goes down, such as in level flight, the auxiliary air intakes would close.

HAL designers aver that this would improve the engine performance only in some portions of the flight envelope. They say that during the most critical moments --- which are during sustained turns, in aerial combat --- the auxiliary air intakes would provide only marginally improved performance, if any at all.

A top HAL designer told me, There is some merit in [the IAFs idea] the designers are considering it. There has been a debate for quite some time will it really improve to that extent. Where it really matters it may not give added thrust.. in other places it will give.

Nevertheless, the fitment of auxiliary air intakes is going ahead, partly because this does not require major re-engineering, nor will it delay the Tejas induction in any way. According to HAL, this will take six months to engineer; later LSPs will incorporate the auxiliary air intakes.

2. Reduction of Tejas' weight. 

The LCAs designers say that the removal of telemetry instrumentation, which is essential during flight testing, will bring the Tejas weight down by as much as 300-400 kilos. Re-engineering some of the displays and sub-systems within the cockpit will lop off another 300 kilos; the weight reduction of 600-700 kilos is expected to allow the carriage of more weapons.

There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.

But theres a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So youll have to shed one ton or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. Thats what happens when a fighters weight goes beyond what was originally planned.

So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament.

3. Increasing control surfaces. 

The designers say they are considering adding an auxiliary wing (similar to the Eurofighter) to the front portion of the fuselage to increase the control surfaces, and therefore manoeuvrability. This involves major re-engineering, which cannot be done for the first two squadrons. However, it will be grouped along with the re-design that will be necessary for fitting in the new engine for Tejas No 41 onwards.

The Tejas designers are not unanimous about the utility of an auxiliary wing. Some are of the opinion that the added power that will come from the new engine might make the additional control surfaces superfluous. But the option remains on the table.


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## GHATAK

The above 2 posts clearly show the benefits of in-house weapon development. This is something which we could not do to Jaguars/Migs - even though we know what to modify- we did not have the licence.

As the F414 engine will be used for the 41st aircraft, there is no impact to the IOC of first 2 sqdns. While they deliveer the first 40, they can get the IOC for LCA with F414, and stablize the production lines after that.

Also, will these LSP's be used by IAF. I mean will they be part of the Ist sqdn or not ?


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## nitesh

GHATAK said:


> The above 2 posts clearly show the benefits of in-house weapon development. This is something which we could not do to Jaguars/Migs - even though we know what to modify- we did not have the licence.
> 
> As the F414 engine will be used for the 41st aircraft, there is no impact to the IOC of first 2 sqdns. While they deliveer the first 40, they can get the IOC for LCA with F414, and stablize the production lines after that.
> 
> Also, will these LSP's be used by IAF. I mean will they be part of the Ist sqdn or not ?



please check the post no. 603 the IOC will be with GE 404 IN20 the FOC will be also with GE 404 IN20 but at the same time planning is to fly LCA with an alternate engine also.

Best of luck for DRDO, ADA and GTRE guys.


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## GHATAK

nitesh said:


> please check the post no. 603 the IOC will be with GE 404 IN20 the FOC will be also with GE 404 IN20 but at the same time planning is to fly LCA with an alternate engine also.
> 
> Best of luck for DRDO, ADA and GTRE guys.



I would guess that IOC for engine with 404 will not be sufficient to evaluate aircraft with 414 engine. 

The testing parametrs need to be re-evaulated as there is a huge increase in the thrust.


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## nitesh

GHATAK said:


> I would guess that IOC for engine with 404 will not be sufficient to evaluate aircraft with 414 engine.
> 
> The testing parametrs need to be re-evaulated as there is a huge increase in the thrust.



May be true, but I feel not much testing will be necessary,


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## BATMAN

Now, I'm confused.
After all these years weight of LCA has not been determined yet!
What about all those specifications and comparisons floating all over the web?

IMO, DRDO cannot blame IAF for increased weight. Once they know the power of the engine they can very well know in advance how much load it can take and should have refused all new requests there and then.

it seems like LCA is not designed for real war infect it is made to win war of specifications.


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## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> Now, I'm confused.
> After all these years weight of LCA has not been determined yet!
> What about all those specifications and comparisons floating all over the web?
> 
> IMO, DRDO cannot blame IAF for increased weight. Once they know the power of the engine they can very well know in advance how much load it can take and should have refused all new requests there and then.
> 
> it seems like LCA is not designed for real war infect it is made to win war of specifications.



Now if people are confused about the weight it is not the problem of DRDO/IAF . You kindly read the post no. 603 first (Just request, because it is the interview of LCA program director).


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## nitesh

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : New engine for Tejas: GE F414 or EJ200?

New engine for Tejas: GE F414 or EJ200?

Ravi Sharma
BANGALORE: The K.V.L. Rao committee tasked with finding a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be submitting its report to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on July 31 in New Delhi. Official sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO laboratory that is behind the Rs. 5,500-crore Tejas programme, said that the committee&#8217;s chairman Dr. Rao will be making a presentation of the report prior to submitting it. *The Hindu has reliably learnt that the Rao committee is recommending that the ADA choose between American aerospace major General Electric&#8217;s GE F414 engine and the European military aero-engine consortium, Eurojet Turbo&#8217;s EJ200.* The ADA is expected to send a request for proposals to the two manufacturers. The latest requirement of The Indian Air Force is for an engine capable of delivering a thrust close to 100 kilo Newton (kN).

*The ADA is expected to make an initial order for 80 engines at an expected cost of $500 million, with the likelihood of a follow on order of 80 more.* *While a few engines will be delivered built by the original equipment manufacturer, the majority are to be manufactured in India, under a licence production / transfer of technology agreement.* The GE F414 and the EJ200 are proven combat engines with the former powering the F-18 Hornet and the EJ200 the Eurofighter Typhoon. Experts say that though the EJ200 is lighter and more fuel efficient, it is more expensive than the F414.


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : New engine for Tejas: GE F414 or EJ200?
> 
> New engine for Tejas: GE F414 or EJ200?
> 
> Ravi Sharma
> BANGALORE: The K.V.L. Rao committee tasked with finding a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be submitting its report to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on July 31 in New Delhi. Official sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO laboratory that is behind the Rs. 5,500-crore Tejas programme, said that the committees chairman Dr. Rao will be making a presentation of the report prior to submitting it. *The Hindu has reliably learnt that the Rao committee is recommending that the ADA choose between American aerospace major General Electrics GE F414 engine and the European military aero-engine consortium, Eurojet Turbos EJ200.* The ADA is expected to send a request for proposals to the two manufacturers. The latest requirement of The Indian Air Force is for an engine capable of delivering a thrust close to 100 kilo Newton (kN).
> 
> *The ADA is expected to make an initial order for 80 engines at an expected cost of $500 million, with the likelihood of a follow on order of 80 more.* *While a few engines will be delivered built by the original equipment manufacturer, the majority are to be manufactured in India, under a licence production / transfer of technology agreement.* The GE F414 and the EJ200 are proven combat engines with the former powering the F-18 Hornet and the EJ200 the Eurofighter Typhoon. Experts say that though the EJ200 is lighter and more fuel efficient, it is more expensive than the F414.



So a question here arises that why DRDO isn't looking into the Russian engines. I mean Russia as being the longest and more reliable supplier then any has actually more to offer then any US or european counterparts. Consider the example of China, they bought the engines from Russia(ALF-31, RD-93) for every jet that they developed, then started local manufacture of that engine with TOT and in the end came out with a version of there own(WS-10,WS-13). Acquiring Russian engines will have no strings whats so ever attached to it and will be relatively more easy to incorporate then any other given the Indian experience with the Russian hardware, also a plant could be installed for the local development and repairing of the engine. If i am not wrong i guess you guys already have a plant for the Mig engines. Is it Mig or SU i am not sure though.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> So a question here arises that why DRDO isn't looking into the Russian engines. I mean Russia as being the longest and more reliable supplier then any has actually more to offer then any US or european counterparts. Consider the example of China, they bought the engines from Russia(ALF-31, RD-93) for every jet that they developed, then started local manufacture of that engine with TOT and in the end came out with a version of there own(WS-10,WS-13). Acquiring Russian engines will have no strings whats so ever attached to it and will be relatively more easy to incorporate then any other given the Indian experience with the Russian hardware, also a plant could be installed for the local development and repairing of the engine. If i am not wrong i guess you guys already have a plant for the Mig engines. Is it Mig or SU i am not sure though.


Ice I think the point is which engine will require minimum changes in the airframe. That engine will be the best choice as it will require less testing.


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## ejaz007

Which ever engine is selected shall require modification to the airframe thus further delaying the program. Also these engines shall come with some sort of strings attached and full TOT might not be offered.


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> Which ever engine is selected shall require modification to the airframe thus further delaying the program. Also these engines shall come with some sort of strings attached and full TOT might not be offered.



Wow what a conclusion. "Full ToT might not be offered" but "might be offered" also.

now your statement "engines shall come with some strings attached" it is your wish. Not that "engines will come with some strings attached".


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> Wow what a conclusion. "Full ToT might not be offered" but "might be offered" also.
> 
> now your statement "engines shall come with some strings attached" it is your wish. Not that "engines will come with some strings attached".



He hasn't said anything for you to jump off your chair. He just expressed his opinion. Why would he or for that matter any one from our side would wish strings to be attached to your engines. The case is very much opposite. However lets not get indulge into this nonsense and keep the thread sane. I wanted to ask you since you mentioned in reply to my post that an engine with minimum modification will be selected for the LCA. I agree however engines can be modified to suit the airframe or perhaps with minor adjustments to it. For example RD-93 for the JF-17 is actually a mig engine with its gear box adjusted to be fitted in the the JF airframe. ALF-31n with thrust vectoring nozzles was shown for the Chinese J-10. Similar case can be done with any of the engines already in the Indian inventory to be fitted in the LCA. That will be a lot more cost effective as compared to any new engine procured by India. That's my two cent on the issue.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> He hasn't said anything for you to jump off your chair. He just expressed his opinion. Why would he or for that matter any one from our side would wish strings to be attached to your engines. The case is very much opposite. However lets not get indulge into this nonsense and keep the thread sane. I wanted to ask you since you mentioned in reply to my post that an engine with minimum modification will be selected for the LCA. I agree however engines can be modified to suit the airframe or perhaps with minor adjustments to it. For example RD-93 for the JF-17 is actually a mig engine with its gear box adjusted to be fitted in the the JF airframe. ALF-31n with thrust vectoring nozzles was shown for the Chinese J-10. Similar case can be done with any of the engines already in the Indian inventory to be fitted in the LCA. That will be a lot more cost effective as compared to any new engine procured by India. That's my two cent on the issue.



Sir, the point is that the LCA is currently running with GE 404 IN20 engine also the whole MRCA contest is about trying to standardize IAF fleet, according to me the IAF force structure by 2015-2020 should look like:

Heavy category (Primarily for Air Superiority role): SU-30 MKI, once PAK-FA comes in to picture it will take this place

Medium category (Primarily Multi roles or specialized Ground Attack/ Air Superiority role): MiG29, Mirage 2k, MiG27, Jaguars (Most of them will be on retirement stage or already retired), The MRCA winner

Light category (Primary Point defense role, occasional multi role): LCA and some MiG21 bis

So, I feel that the engine chosen should be the same as used by the MRCA winner, not from the existing engines used. This will help in reducing the logistics cost.

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## nitesh

Guys check this:

Seems like we have found the MRCA winner check this
French firm to help develop engines for Indian fighter planes - Corporate News - livemint.com


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## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Guys check this:
> 
> Seems like we have found the MRCA winner check this
> French firm to help develop engines for Indian fighter planes - Corporate News - livemint.com



Interesting you think the Rafale will win? It seems a expensive way of doing things. buy a very expensive aircraft to get development for the LCA...


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Interesting you think the Rafale will win? It seems a expensive way of doing things. buy a very expensive aircraft to get development for the LCA...



Sir as you said it is just my thinking based on the logic that same engine (kaveri) may be used for powering LCA and Rafale in the future as the companies working on engine will be from same countries. But anyway let's see how the drama unfolds.


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## nitesh

Guys check this: India has to think twice before anything buying from US

The Hindu : National : Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme
Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme


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## nitesh

India may test futuristic jets by 2015-India-The Times of India

India may test futuristic jets by 2015
8 Aug 2008, 0315 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN 

NEW DELHI: India hopes that the first developmental flight of the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), to be co-developed with Russia, will take place by 2015-2016. 

*The FGFA, as envisaged by IAF to fulfil its futuristic requirements, will have a lethal mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities. Apart from a &#8216;&#8216;minimal&#8217;&#8217; radar tracking signature to impart stealth, the FGFA will have &#8216;&#8216;a very high degree of network centricity&#8217;&#8217;, as also multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems &#8212; optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors. *

*&#8216;&#8216;The FGFA should fly for the first time by 2015 or so. If it manages to do so earlier, then it will be a big achievement. Negotiations with Russia are making good progress, with the details being worked out,&#8217;&#8217; IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told TOI on Thursday. *

*&#8216;&#8216;It is very complex to design and develop an FGFA. The FGFA we want will be an entirely new platform, with many additional features, stealth being an important one,&#8217;&#8217;* he added. The ongoing negotiations with Russia flow from the FGFA agreement signed during the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical cooperation meeting, co-chaired by defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart, last October. 

*The bone of contention is that Russia has already frozen the design parameters of its FGFA, the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA, the first prototype of which is likely to take to the skies by 2009. *

*India, however, wants a twin-seater FGFA built to its requirements, which will obviously require several design changes. With the FGFA project expected to cost $8-10 billion, a cash-starved Russia is agreeable to the idea of having both single and twin-seater versions. &#8216;&#8216;The various issues are being sorted out,&#8217;&#8217; said an official. *


There is only one operational FGFA in the world at present, the American F/A-22 &#8216;Raptor&#8217;, which comes at a whopping $142 million apiece. Another, the F-35 &#8216;Lightning-II&#8217;, in turn, is still under joint development by US, UK and seven other countries. 

The most potent fighter in the IAF fleet currently is the Sukhoi-30MKI, which can be placed a little over fourth-generation, along with others like Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and F/A-18 &#8216;Super Hornets&#8217;. While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well. 

Since it will take well over a decade for an Indo-Russian FGFA to become fully-operational, IAF is banking upon the 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia at an overall cost of around $8.5 billion. Then, of course, there is also the mammoth $10.4 billion project to induct 126 new multi-role combat aircraft in IAF from 2012-2013 onwards.


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## nitesh

Guys, can anything be better then this?

Wonderful range

Wonderful range

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
Interview with M. Natarajan, Director General, DRDO, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

ON the occasion of the golden jubilee celebrations of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which began on January 9, Frontline met M. Natarajan, Director General, DRDO, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

Natarajan, who joined the DRDO in 1970, has worked on several important projects including the design and development of tracked vehicles. He was associated with the development of the main battle tank Arjun from its inception and became its Programme Director in 1987. Hard work from him and his team led to India having the self-propelled gun system Bhim.

Before becoming the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, Natarajan was Chief Controller, Research and Development (Armaments and Combat Engineering), at DRDO headquarters in New Delhi.

During this period, he ensured the acceptance of Pinaka, the multi-barrel rocket launcher system, by the Army after exhaustive field trials. He also contributed to the mechanical systems of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Natarajan was earlier the Director of the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), which developed Arjun, at Avadi in Chennai.

A mechanical engineer, Natarajan has a B.Tech from Indian Institute of Technology Madras and an M.Tech from IIT Bombay. He also has an M.S. in military vehicle technology from the Royal Military College of Science in the United Kingdom. Excerpts from the interview:

*The DRDO is celebrating its golden jubilee this year. What is its road map, say, for the next 25 years?*
The DRDO is one arm of the Ministry of Defence devoted to science and technology development. *We get a small portion of the defence budget, which is at present around 6.13 per cent. What is not known to many is that 40 per cent of the DRDO&#8217;s budget goes towards the development of strategic systems, essential for the country to maintain the requisite balance in defence preparedness. Close to a third of our budget goes towards salaries, infrastructure and training. So what most people know about the DRDO is based either on an appreciation or depreciation of one-third of our budget, spent on the development of the tactical systems for our armed forces.*

The DRDO, with its chain of 50 laboratories, is specialising in a wide range of disciplines from life sciences to aerospace. When you list them in terms of sciences, engineering and technology, they may number more than the DRDO laboratories. However, *the number of DRDO scientists and technical staff is too meagre to cater for the entire spectrum of products required by the armed forces.*

This must be appreciated because this is not understood even by those in authority. We are a small team. Therefore, we have to stay focussed on select areas and this is what we are trying to define to the government that the remaining has to be acquired by industries or through other channels. There are many good defence public sector undertakings and ordnance factories, which have matured over the years, and they could supply certain products to the armed forces either through their own development or in collaboration with others. This will supplement DRDO laboratories as well.

This puts DRDO in a tight spot as to how it should strike a balance between what it wants to develop, its aspirations for carrying technology forward in niche areas, and how to network with the industry.

Take for example, aeronautics. We are into a programme for the LCA. What started off as one project has become three: LCA for the Indian Air Force [IAF] and the Navy and a trainer version of the LCA. *This trainer will be far superior to the Hawk, with the kind of advanced features that it will have, especially in avionics&#8230;.*

Naturally, when we draw a road map, we see the fructification of these three taking us to a medium combat aircraft, a multi-role combat aircraft with fifth generation technologies, where there can be commonality of parts with LCA in avionics or radar, and eventually, 15 years from now, building an unmanned aerial combat vehicle [UACV].

Range of vehicles
So, if one looks at just this spectrum of vehicles, five in number, I see a good potential to build all together, about 1,000 aircraft, over a period of time. *The LCA could be 400 in number for the IAF, 100 for the Navy; the trainer could be 150; the medium combat aircraft 250; and 100-150 for the UACVs.*

Since the design is ours, with a largely open architecture system, we have the comfort of adding values in avionics, radar systems, control and guidance systems as we go along, besides making improvements in the materials for construction, particularly in composites and the manufacturing processes thereof.

With the limited team we have today, including our partners in the industry, even to accomplish this will be an achievement. I, therefore, do not see any conflict between what the HAL [Hindustan Aeronautics Limited] and the private industries will have to do in jointly developing military transport aircraft, helicopters, cargo-lifters and heavy combat aircraft such as Sukhoi because these are the spectrum of aircraft that the IAF will need.

*Likewise, we have taken airborne early warning and control [AEW&C] system on a smaller platform such as the Embraer aircraft. [The AEW&C system will be integrated to the EMB-145 aircraft for India by 2011.] It has got limited range, may be 250-300 km. But we will stay focussed in building the AEW&C radar indigenously, including its essential systems such as transmitter-receiver modules, antennae and the entire processing apart from its navigation, communication and intelligence mechanisms, including electronic warfare systems that it may feature.*

*Is the DRDO attempting to build all this capability?*

Yes. At the moment, we are building only two or three AEW&Cs. But we see a good potential for this to be used by the Navy and the Coast Guard, besides the IAF, and may be later by the Army aviation along the coast and the borders. The technology elements that will be learnt through this process will enable us to integrate or network this in the bigger systems obtained from abroad. This is the second type of capability we are generating. [The first type is the spectrum of vehicles.]

*The third is Nishant,* the unmanned aerial vehicle we have built. It has done very well. But we are struggling to produce it in numbers because the production partner is not yet identified. The [DRDO] laboratory is doing the production. We are looking forward to encouraging greater private participation so that more Nishants can be produced in a shorter span of time.

As we graduate, we are going to take up a project, the medium altitude long-endurance aircraft [version] of the UAV, in which we would like to bring in an Indian company, either private or public or a consortium, in the design phase itself so that it can become the builder of this system and pick up the domain knowledge associated with such equipment. There are good prospects for doing this today.

If this experiment succeeds, and I am sure it will, given the efforts that the DRDO is taking, we can build high-altitude UAVs, which will be required in reasonable numbers by the country. If all these are to succeed, technologies in distinct areas such as control and guidance, flight control systems, avionics systems, electronic warfare systems, airborne radars and so on will have to be concurrently developed. Efforts are on in most of these technologies and they are in different stages of development.

*Are efforts under way in these areas in the DRDO?*
In DRDO. If you build and test your own systems, you will be on a much stronger wicket in future to seek a meaningful collaboration for joint development. From what I have described, you can see what wonderful opportunities will open up for Indian industry, if only it has the patience and perseverance to get into domain knowledge and demonstrate its initiative and business acumen to carry forward these tasks. For the country to progress, the DRDO and industry have to sing a duet. I am hopeful it will happen.

What do you have to say to the criticism of time and cost overruns in several projects?
Let me be frank. If you look at most of our developmental programmes, I agree that we have taken two or three-fold more time than envisaged. But during the same period, there has been a continual upgrading of technology. The difficulty was that because of the delay, *there was a moving goalpost. But while trying to reach the moving goalpost, we tried to upgrade the technology.*

The problem was that for these first-off systems, the technology readiness level was inadequate and certain technologies had to be concurrently developed. This is true of any country that ventures to build systems for the first time.

Most people take note of a numerically quoted figure of the project value and the start date, a closing figure and a closing date, and try to decode a multiplication factor thereof, and say that the project cost had gone up by so many times. This is a simplistic way of passing judgement that does not speak the truth.

Financial pundits will say that the time-delay is a cost-escalation even if all other things are perfect. I agree, but the way to judge these projects is not this. When you manufacture a product, you have a production run over a period of time. If you can justify the amortisation of the development [of the product] and it comes to a reasonable figure, consistent with the product of that type, there is every reason to be satisfied with it.

We have reasons to believe that our amortisations are pitifully low compared to many countries in the development arena. For example, if you take the INSAS [Indian National Small Arms System] rifle developed by the DRDO, about a million rifles have been produced until now. We spent less than Rs.20 crore to perfect it.

*Rs.20 crore in modifying it?*
No. It was the project cost. That is all. But we gave a production worth more than Rs.2,500 crore. What was amortisation [in this]? Just 1 per cent. Even if you take Arjun &#8211; I am deliberately quoting two extreme-end projects &#8211; we spent less than Rs.400 crore on its development. In a country that ends up building just 300 of these tanks &#8211; not a big number &#8211; you are talking of a production turnover close to Rs.5,000 crore. For a product [Arjun] of such complexity, its amortisation was ridiculously low.

Likewise, take the LCA, its project cost today is close to Rs.6,000 crore. Even if you spend another Rs.1,000 crore for adding some developmental entities, it will be Rs.7,000 crore. If you build 400 aircraft, &#8211; an aircraft today costs Rs.150 crore &#8211; it equals Rs.60,000 crore. The amortisation is just about 10 per cent. Worldwide, it is more than 25-30 per cent. Besides, the unit cost of any indigenously developed product is invariably favourable compared with the cost of any individual, imported equipment.

*I want to assure you that while the DRDO will take its share of blame &#8211; it is not the only entity to be blamed* &#8211; there are others in the decision-making process. Yet, I would not wish to pass on the blame to them. I take the blame for the delay but we are giving products at a reasonable cost and they can be sourced at economical prices.

Those in the industry and those who have had exposure to the DRDO know this well and there is no surprise that all big industries want to jump on to the defence bandwagon. I am sure Indian industries are now maturing through greater exposure to opportunities opening up for them and are seeing opportunities for capitalising on the DRDO&#8217;s knowledge and technology.

*What the government spends on the DRDO is nothing but a subsidy to Indian industry, be it private, public or an ordnance factory.* So DRDO sincerely looks forward to the day when industry, with its business acumen, knows how to capitalise on the DRDO.

*The DRDO has come of age in missile development. How do you assess the success of the underwater missile Sagarika, the interceptor missile, Agni-II, Agni-I and Agni-III, Prithvi, Akash, Nag and BrahMos?
To the outside world, they may look like sudden successes. But there are no instant successes in a scientific activity.* It is sustained effort and commitment in different disciplines that go into the integration of a missile, which has culminated in the success of a number of missile systems.

*Elemental Technologies*
Many elemental technologies that go into missiles, such as propulsion systems, airframe design, navigation, command and control systems, guidance systems, warheads and re-entry where applicable &#8211; all have reached a maturity for a given design and for the level of technology that we have planned so far. They have been integrated into successful systems. It is like a perfect meal&#8230;. It is difficult to describe whether these missions are entirely scientific or partly art.

The challenge now will be to take forward the technological gains by making improvements in each elemental technology, which will cumulatively give us advantages in terms of longer-range, lesser-weight, more-efficient propulsion, compact and reliable margins and so on. I am sure that all this will happen in the coming decade with newer seekers, fibre optics, ring-laser gyros, light-weight, high-strength materials, and polymeric materials in propulsion systems.


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## nitesh

Guys, can anything be better then this?

Wonderful range

Wonderful range

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
Interview with M. Natarajan, Director General, DRDO, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

ON the occasion of the golden jubilee celebrations of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which began on January 9, Frontline met M. Natarajan, Director General, DRDO, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

Natarajan, who joined the DRDO in 1970, has worked on several important projects including the design and development of tracked vehicles. He was associated with the development of the main battle tank Arjun from its inception and became its Programme Director in 1987. Hard work from him and his team led to India having the self-propelled gun system Bhim.

Before becoming the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, Natarajan was Chief Controller, Research and Development (Armaments and Combat Engineering), at DRDO headquarters in New Delhi.

During this period, he ensured the acceptance of Pinaka, the multi-barrel rocket launcher system, by the Army after exhaustive field trials. He also contributed to the mechanical systems of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Natarajan was earlier the Director of the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), which developed Arjun, at Avadi in Chennai.

A mechanical engineer, Natarajan has a B.Tech from Indian Institute of Technology Madras and an M.Tech from IIT Bombay. He also has an M.S. in military vehicle technology from the Royal Military College of Science in the United Kingdom. Excerpts from the interview:

*The DRDO is celebrating its golden jubilee this year. What is its road map, say, for the next 25 years?*
The DRDO is one arm of the Ministry of Defence devoted to science and technology development. *We get a small portion of the defence budget, which is at present around 6.13 per cent. What is not known to many is that 40 per cent of the DRDOs budget goes towards the development of strategic systems, essential for the country to maintain the requisite balance in defence preparedness. Close to a third of our budget goes towards salaries, infrastructure and training. So what most people know about the DRDO is based either on an appreciation or depreciation of one-third of our budget, spent on the development of the tactical systems for our armed forces.*

The DRDO, with its chain of 50 laboratories, is specialising in a wide range of disciplines from life sciences to aerospace. When you list them in terms of sciences, engineering and technology, they may number more than the DRDO laboratories. However, *the number of DRDO scientists and technical staff is too meagre to cater for the entire spectrum of products required by the armed forces.*

This must be appreciated because this is not understood even by those in authority. We are a small team. Therefore, we have to stay focussed on select areas and this is what we are trying to define to the government that the remaining has to be acquired by industries or through other channels. There are many good defence public sector undertakings and ordnance factories, which have matured over the years, and they could supply certain products to the armed forces either through their own development or in collaboration with others. This will supplement DRDO laboratories as well.

This puts DRDO in a tight spot as to how it should strike a balance between what it wants to develop, its aspirations for carrying technology forward in niche areas, and how to network with the industry.

Take for example, aeronautics. We are into a programme for the LCA. What started off as one project has become three: LCA for the Indian Air Force [IAF] and the Navy and a trainer version of the LCA. *This trainer will be far superior to the Hawk, with the kind of advanced features that it will have, especially in avionics.*

Naturally, when we draw a road map, we see the fructification of these three taking us to a medium combat aircraft, a multi-role combat aircraft with fifth generation technologies, where there can be commonality of parts with LCA in avionics or radar, and eventually, 15 years from now, building an unmanned aerial combat vehicle [UACV].

Range of vehicles
So, if one looks at just this spectrum of vehicles, five in number, I see a good potential to build all together, about 1,000 aircraft, over a period of time. *The LCA could be 400 in number for the IAF, 100 for the Navy; the trainer could be 150; the medium combat aircraft 250; and 100-150 for the UACVs.*

Since the design is ours, with a largely open architecture system, we have the comfort of adding values in avionics, radar systems, control and guidance systems as we go along, besides making improvements in the materials for construction, particularly in composites and the manufacturing processes thereof.

With the limited team we have today, including our partners in the industry, even to accomplish this will be an achievement. I, therefore, do not see any conflict between what the HAL [Hindustan Aeronautics Limited] and the private industries will have to do in jointly developing military transport aircraft, helicopters, cargo-lifters and heavy combat aircraft such as Sukhoi because these are the spectrum of aircraft that the IAF will need.

*Likewise, we have taken airborne early warning and control [AEW&C] system on a smaller platform such as the Embraer aircraft. [The AEW&C system will be integrated to the EMB-145 aircraft for India by 2011.] It has got limited range, may be 250-300 km. But we will stay focussed in building the AEW&C radar indigenously, including its essential systems such as transmitter-receiver modules, antennae and the entire processing apart from its navigation, communication and intelligence mechanisms, including electronic warfare systems that it may feature.*

*Is the DRDO attempting to build all this capability?*

Yes. At the moment, we are building only two or three AEW&Cs. But we see a good potential for this to be used by the Navy and the Coast Guard, besides the IAF, and may be later by the Army aviation along the coast and the borders. The technology elements that will be learnt through this process will enable us to integrate or network this in the bigger systems obtained from abroad. This is the second type of capability we are generating. [The first type is the spectrum of vehicles.]

*The third is Nishant,* the unmanned aerial vehicle we have built. It has done very well. But we are struggling to produce it in numbers because the production partner is not yet identified. The [DRDO] laboratory is doing the production. We are looking forward to encouraging greater private participation so that more Nishants can be produced in a shorter span of time.

As we graduate, we are going to take up a project, the medium altitude long-endurance aircraft [version] of the UAV, in which we would like to bring in an Indian company, either private or public or a consortium, in the design phase itself so that it can become the builder of this system and pick up the domain knowledge associated with such equipment. There are good prospects for doing this today.

If this experiment succeeds, and I am sure it will, given the efforts that the DRDO is taking, we can build high-altitude UAVs, which will be required in reasonable numbers by the country. If all these are to succeed, technologies in distinct areas such as control and guidance, flight control systems, avionics systems, electronic warfare systems, airborne radars and so on will have to be concurrently developed. Efforts are on in most of these technologies and they are in different stages of development.

*Are efforts under way in these areas in the DRDO?*
In DRDO. If you build and test your own systems, you will be on a much stronger wicket in future to seek a meaningful collaboration for joint development. From what I have described, you can see what wonderful opportunities will open up for Indian industry, if only it has the patience and perseverance to get into domain knowledge and demonstrate its initiative and business acumen to carry forward these tasks. For the country to progress, the DRDO and industry have to sing a duet. I am hopeful it will happen.

What do you have to say to the criticism of time and cost overruns in several projects?
Let me be frank. If you look at most of our developmental programmes, I agree that we have taken two or three-fold more time than envisaged. But during the same period, there has been a continual upgrading of technology. The difficulty was that because of the delay, *there was a moving goalpost. But while trying to reach the moving goalpost, we tried to upgrade the technology.*

The problem was that for these first-off systems, the technology readiness level was inadequate and certain technologies had to be concurrently developed. This is true of any country that ventures to build systems for the first time.

Most people take note of a numerically quoted figure of the project value and the start date, a closing figure and a closing date, and try to decode a multiplication factor thereof, and say that the project cost had gone up by so many times. This is a simplistic way of passing judgement that does not speak the truth.

Financial pundits will say that the time-delay is a cost-escalation even if all other things are perfect. I agree, but the way to judge these projects is not this. When you manufacture a product, you have a production run over a period of time. If you can justify the amortisation of the development [of the product] and it comes to a reasonable figure, consistent with the product of that type, there is every reason to be satisfied with it.

We have reasons to believe that our amortisations are pitifully low compared to many countries in the development arena. For example, if you take the INSAS [Indian National Small Arms System] rifle developed by the DRDO, about a million rifles have been produced until now. We spent less than Rs.20 crore to perfect it.

*Rs.20 crore in modifying it?*
No. It was the project cost. That is all. But we gave a production worth more than Rs.2,500 crore. What was amortisation [in this]? Just 1 per cent. Even if you take Arjun  I am deliberately quoting two extreme-end projects  we spent less than Rs.400 crore on its development. In a country that ends up building just 300 of these tanks  not a big number  you are talking of a production turnover close to Rs.5,000 crore. For a product [Arjun] of such complexity, its amortisation was ridiculously low.

Likewise, take the LCA, its project cost today is close to Rs.6,000 crore. Even if you spend another Rs.1,000 crore for adding some developmental entities, it will be Rs.7,000 crore. If you build 400 aircraft,  an aircraft today costs Rs.150 crore  it equals Rs.60,000 crore. The amortisation is just about 10 per cent. Worldwide, it is more than 25-30 per cent. Besides, the unit cost of any indigenously developed product is invariably favourable compared with the cost of any individual, imported equipment.

*I want to assure you that while the DRDO will take its share of blame  it is not the only entity to be blamed*  there are others in the decision-making process. Yet, I would not wish to pass on the blame to them. I take the blame for the delay but we are giving products at a reasonable cost and they can be sourced at economical prices.

Those in the industry and those who have had exposure to the DRDO know this well and there is no surprise that all big industries want to jump on to the defence bandwagon. I am sure Indian industries are now maturing through greater exposure to opportunities opening up for them and are seeing opportunities for capitalising on the DRDOs knowledge and technology.

*What the government spends on the DRDO is nothing but a subsidy to Indian industry, be it private, public or an ordnance factory.* So DRDO sincerely looks forward to the day when industry, with its business acumen, knows how to capitalise on the DRDO.

*The DRDO has come of age in missile development. How do you assess the success of the underwater missile Sagarika, the interceptor missile, Agni-II, Agni-I and Agni-III, Prithvi, Akash, Nag and BrahMos?
To the outside world, they may look like sudden successes. But there are no instant successes in a scientific activity.* It is sustained effort and commitment in different disciplines that go into the integration of a missile, which has culminated in the success of a number of missile systems.

*Elemental Technologies*
Many elemental technologies that go into missiles, such as propulsion systems, airframe design, navigation, command and control systems, guidance systems, warheads and re-entry where applicable  all have reached a maturity for a given design and for the level of technology that we have planned so far. They have been integrated into successful systems. It is like a perfect meal. It is difficult to describe whether these missions are entirely scientific or partly art.

The challenge now will be to take forward the technological gains by making improvements in each elemental technology, which will cumulatively give us advantages in terms of longer-range, lesser-weight, more-efficient propulsion, compact and reliable margins and so on. I am sure that all this will happen in the coming decade with newer seekers, fibre optics, ring-laser gyros, light-weight, high-strength materials, and polymeric materials in propulsion systems.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

Guys this seems to be end for boeing:

European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com


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## nitesh

guys I wish this comes true,



> The LCA could be 400 in number for the IAF, 100 for the Navy; the trainer could be 150; the medium combat aircraft 250; and 100-150 for the UACVs.


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## ashfaque

Sorry to bust your dream.... But next 10 years these guys will keep developing LCA and then they will say now lets develop 6th generation jet. This oraganization is currupt, believe me they will not do any thing next 50 years and keep waisting tax payer's money....

SC said correctly, even GOD can not save this country. Time has come to stop day dreaming and start asking questions about some harsh reality.

I am really worried about future of India where communal devide getting bigger, distance between rich and poor getting more, every where from bottom to top people are currupt, even armed forces are geeting currupt.


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## nitesh

Guys I thought not to open a thread simple for this news so just posted here:

Hawks Built in India Cost Less: Defence Ministry - Defense News


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## nitesh

ashfaque said:


> Sorry to bust your dream.... But next 10 years these guys will keep developing LCA and then they will say now lets develop 6th generation jet. This oraganization is currupt, believe me they will not do any thing next 50 years and keep waisting tax payer's money....
> 
> SC said correctly, even GOD can not save this country. Time has come to stop day dreaming and start asking questions about some harsh reality.
> 
> I am really worried about future of India where communal devide getting bigger, distance between rich and poor getting more, every where from bottom to top people are currupt, even armed forces are geeting currupt.



Wrong thread mate, any way we both are here only we will see what happens in future. Pl keep the discussion to LCA only


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## ashfaque

nitesh said:


> Wrong thread mate, any way we both are here only we will see what happens in future. Pl keep the discussion to LCA only



Sorry mate, probabaly posting against LCA in wrong thread.... But I am not interested in this discussion, because I know what is the future of this Jet, keep discussing it next 10 years.... I understand its painfull, for me too, but true.


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## nitesh

ashfaque said:


> Sorry mate, probabaly posting against LCA in wrong thread.... But I am not interested in this discussion, because I know what is the future of this Jet, keep discussing it next 10 years.... I understand its painfull, for me too, but true.



Ok sir we will see


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## nitesh

Guys check this, 


In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com

In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline


A shortfall in performance of Kaveri engine led the DRDO to collaborate with a foreign firm, says T. Mohana Rao, director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment


Bangalore: Nearly 20 years after it promised an indigenous engine to power India&#8217;s light combat aircraft Tejas, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, or GTRE, the country&#8217;s sole aero engine design house, is now seeking outside help.
It has chosen French aircraft engine maker Snecma SA to jointly build an engine to replace Kaveri, a project named after the river in southern India. T. Mohana Rao, director of GTRE, a unit of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, explains why it had to choose a partner and talks about the future of the Kaveri programme. Edited Excerpts:

What is the status of the Kaveri engine development project?

*We have a functional engine, but there is a slight shortfall in performance. It has achieved dry thrust of 4,600kg and reheat thrust of 7,000kg in Bangalore, which is around 3,000ft above sea level. So, it would be around 5,000kg dry thrust and 7,500kg reheat thrust at sea level. The engine is short of thrust by 400kg and overweight by around 150kg. Also, we still have to perform long- endurance tests of the engine to run for many hours.*

Does this mean the engine for the light combat aircraft would be further delayed?

In aircraft engine development, particularly when you are doing it for the first time, you cannot set a timeline. We could take five or six years. The Indian Air Force (IAF) cannot wait for an engine for that long, and the government said if there is any engine house that we can partner, we could go ahead and do a joint venture on risk-sharing basis.
Only NPO Saturn and Snecma responded of the five. General Electric Co., Rolls-Royce Plc. and Pratt and Whitney declined. Nearly two-and-a-half years after we started the process, we have identified Snecma. The government told us to consult IAF and decide on the air staff requirements before we sign a contract.

Has Snecma given a timeline for the new engine?

Snecma will bring its (engine) core that is named Eco. A core, which comprise a compressor, combustor and high-pressure turbine, is the heart of any jet engine. *The engine will have less weight and more reheat thrust along with certain other changes to meet the original design intent. They will have a workshare of 45&#37;, and ours would be 55%. Nearly 85% of the manufacturing would be within the country. The engine would be certified for fitting in the aircraft in around four years. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will produce the engine and all future aircraft engines in India would be from the joint venture.*

But why so late? Couldn&#8217;t you have gone for a global partner much earlier and avoided delays?

*It was a decision by the government.* When Kaveri was conceived, India did not have a design base for aero engines, except for some work we had done earlier. *Globally, they first pick an engine and then build the aircraft. Here, we decided that by the time the light combat aircraft was ready, we should have our own engine.* *The engine (supplied by General Electric) currently powering the aircraft is inferior to Kaveri&#8217;s specifications.*
*IAF wanted us to build a highly stable engine with a digital computer to control it, and a two-lane manual reversion (a backup for the first time in the world).* Rolls-Royce and GE validated our design. Now we have a design base, huge infrastructure and talent pool in engines. We could not have built this if we had not taken up this project.
What will happen to Kaveri and the work you have done?
*
The core of Kaveri is performing well. Because of the lower thrust, it cannot be used on combat aircraft. It can be used to power unmanned combat aerial vehicles. We have already demonstrated a marine version of Kaveri using diesel as fuel for the Indian navy. It can also be used as a large 12MW industrial genset for power generation.*

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## jaison

this is so sweetit cleared all my doubts ........now i understand the timeline
40 lcas with in20,80 tejas with new engines(ej-200,ge-414),if the jv with france is delayed 80 more orders for engines will be placed with tot ,if not the the 80 will be powered by the new jv engine,it will also will be used for mca(if it is approved by the GOI),the original kaveri will be used for ucav,ships,ground vehicles..........kaveri is not a waste after all........i wonder which single crystal blade the jv engine will be using the drdos or snecmas..........n-lca can also use the engines as IN will require more lcas for the second ads which will weigh 65,000 ton and carry 48 acs.
'Only NPO Saturn and Snecma responded of the five. General Electric Co., Rolls-Royce Plc. and Pratt and Whitney declined'
this proves that when it comes to sensitive high technology products russia and france are still our closest partners.......with this i think the GOI will always consider them when it goes for jvs.


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## jaison

some info abt 'eco'
"In early 2005, Snecma carried out the first successful tests of a technology demonstrator designed to enhance M88-2 cost of ownership and pave the way for upgraded versions. Dubbed &#8220;ECO&#8221;, this program aims to demonstrate improvements in operating cost and availability based on innovative new technologies. At the same time, it will study the feasibility of augmenting the engine&#8217;s thrust, without changing weight or fuel consumption. This program will ensure that new versions of Rafale retain their competitiveness, in terms of payload capacity as well as performance throughout the flight envelope."
http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/Snecma_Press_kit_NBAA_October_2006.pdf

i am proud that whatever indian scientists do they are of top quality.


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> this is so sweetit cleared all my n-lca can also use the engines as *IN will require more lcas for the second ads which will weigh 65,000 ton and carry 48 acs.*.



Link Please ........ as far as I know the 2nd Indigenous carrier of IN is the same Vikrant class carrier....... Indigenous Aircraft Carrier


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## jaison

'The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) (formerly known as Air Defence Ship (ADS)) is the first aircraft carrier to be built by India at the Cochin Shipyard. The steel cutting took place at Cochin Shipyard Ltd on 11 April 2005 [1] and the fabrication of the hull has started. This will be the largest and broadest ship ever built by Cochin Shipyard. The Cochin shipyard plans to complete eighty percent of works on the ship before its launch in 2010.[2] The aircraft carrier is expected to enter service by 2012.[3] The early warning sensors and anti-aircraft missile capability of the first aircraft carrier is similar to that of the Kolkata class destroyers. A second ship in the series will be a 64,000-ton aircraft carrier which is expected to enter service by the year 2017.[4]'
Vikrant class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
not enough 
Defense Technology International - April 2008
in this article it says second ads will weigh 64,000ton.......think this will satisfy you


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> 'The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) (formerly known as Air Defence Ship (ADS)) is the first aircraft carrier to be built by India at the Cochin Shipyard. The steel cutting took place at Cochin Shipyard Ltd on 11 April 2005 [1] and the fabrication of the hull has started. This will be the largest and broadest ship ever built by Cochin Shipyard. The Cochin shipyard plans to complete eighty percent of works on the ship before its launch in 2010.[2] The aircraft carrier is expected to enter service by 2012.[3] The early warning sensors and anti-aircraft missile capability of the first aircraft carrier is similar to that of the Kolkata class destroyers. A second ship in the series will be a 64,000-ton aircraft carrier which is expected to enter service by the year 2017.[4]'
> Vikrant class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> not enough
> Defense Technology International - April 2008
> in this article it says second ads will weigh 64,000ton.......think this will satisfy you



wikipedia is not reliable sourse and the other link is not working.
... however I think the 64000tn ac is just a rumor. Recently in an interview to the headlines today the Admrl. Suresh Mehta has confirmed that the IN will order 1 more carrier of the same 37000tn class as soon as the construction of the first indigenous carrier reaches at a certain stage. and he also stated that India will have atleast three indigenous carrier before 2025. the construction of the 3rd carrier to start somewhere around 2018 he said. I dont have link of that interview but it is understandable that India cant go for another carrier of a different design without inducting the first one.


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## jaison

even i did not believe in it first,but when the same was given in the defence technology international a famous magazine i understood it was no rumor and the article dates april 2008 edition.......the link is working.....if ads-2 is not that heavy then why does the navy require 100 lca while all 3 carriers added with reserves dont amount to 100 excluding mig-29ks...........do you think that the director general of drdo is joking.........even if lca are not inducted the requirement will still stands and may be fullfilled with mig-29ks,f-18s or even f-35(if possible).i dont know abt your opinion but i firmly believe in the news.........the article also says that ads1 will be operational only in 2014,ads2 will have steam catapults and can accomadate the latest e-2d hawkeyes.


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## nitesh

guys over all I feel LCA induction would be something like this:

first 40: With the GE 404 IN 20 engine and with Elta 2032 based radar. Till 2012 and the production lines will be stabilized till then

Next batch approx 4-5 squadrons: With the engine selected means either with GE 414 or Eurojet and the radar same as above (here some surprise can come like AESA based on Elta 2052 but I am not putting my hopes there). This will start from 2012 onwards
and we can see 1 squadron per year

Next batch: Here we can see some 3-4 squadrons or more by canceling 1-2 squadron from above. With kaveri and Elta 2052 based radar or any AESA selected. As well as MCA will be flying with it.


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## jaison

nitesh said:


> guys over all I feel LCA induction would be something like this:
> 
> first 40: With the GE 404 IN 20 engine and with Elta 2032 based radar. Till 2012 and the production lines will be stabilized till then
> 
> Next batch approx 4-5 squadrons: With the engine selected means either with GE 414 or Eurojet and the radar same as above (here some surprise can come like AESA based on Elta 2052 but I am not putting my hopes there). This will start from 2012 onwards
> and we can see 1 squadron per year
> 
> Next batch: Here we can see some 3-4 squadrons or more by canceling 1-2 squadron from above. With kaveri and Elta 2052 based radar or any AESA selected. As well as MCA will be flying with it.


kaveri will not power the lca. the jv will be for a new engine with a french core and others will be indian ,very likely to come from kaveri and then we will be the only asian nation to develop world class engines............but yes mca must be flying between 2017-2019 and will be operational by 2022-3.........40+80+80=200 for that we must produce abt 20lcas per year which is easily achievable considering that it is an indegenous product,its simple delta wing,composites..........the 
n-lca will have new engines considering its addedweight with arrester hook and stronger undercarriage.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> kaveri will not power the lca. the jv will be for a new engine with a french core and others will be indian ,very likely to come from kaveri and then we will be the only asian nation to develop world class engines............but yes mca must be flying between 2017-2019 and will be operational by 2022-3.........40+80+80=200 for that we must produce abt 20lcas per year which is easily achievable considering that it is an indegenous product,its simple delta wing,composites..........the
> n-lca will have new engines considering its addedweight with arrester hook and stronger undercarriage.



without using kaveri to power LCA I don't think it will be good option there will be LCA powered with kaveri definitely.


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## jaison

'Let us be realistic about the engine. Making a gas turbine engine for a fighter jet is a very complex issue. Very few countries in the world have been able to develop it successfully. Since starting the LCA programme, the weight of the aircraft has grown up significantly; yet I must tell you that at 6.5 tons the LCA is one of the lightest aircraft of its class in the world. Kaveri engine was fine for the LCA programme when it started. But as we have shifted the goal-post, which is the LCA weight, the Kaveri engine does not meet the ASR requirement. In the meantime, I am also requesting GTRE that technologies are available in the world to make the Kaveri engine fulfil the ASR requirements. Even if they take more years instead of four to make an indigenous engine with collaboration from outside, it would be very good. The IAF has said that its requirement of LCA could be in significant numbers. Once the suitable indigenous Kaveri is made it can be fitted to the LCA still under production. The Kaveri has given a good performance which is not easy to get. If we are able to bring Kaveri to the desired standards, it will be a major achievement. If you discontinue Kaveri now, you will kill the engine technology in India.'
this is from your old post

i am sorry i think it is the kaveri but only the core will be french.........i made a mistake.........the gtre had two options *to mature kaveri without foriegn help in 6 years*to mature kaveri using french tech in 4years........it chose the later........negotiations will take atlest one year,actual development and certification will take 4-5 years,testing on the lca will take 1-2 years ,totally abt 6-7 years which means the timeline is 2014-15 which is perfect after the 80 lca with ej or ge............thanks man.......


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> even i did not believe in it first,but when the same was given in the defence technology international a famous magazine i understood it was no rumor and the article dates april 2008 edition.......the link is working.....if ads-2 is not that heavy then why does the navy require 100 lca while all 3 carriers added with reserves dont amount to 100 excluding mig-29ks...........do you think that the director general of drdo is joking.........even if lca are not inducted the requirement will still stands and may be fullfilled with mig-29ks,f-18s or even f-35(if possible).i dont know abt your opinion but i firmly believe in the news.........the article also says that ads1 will be operational only in 2014,ads2 will have steam catapults and can accomadate the latest e-2d hawkeyes.



You must be jocking.....Director general of DRDO has got nothing to do with the Navy and its purchase. He can go on and say what ever he want to..navy or for that matter the army and airforce will do every thing on their own terms and condition. otherwise the Arjun would be inducted in to army not in 100s but in 1000s, right now even 100 is bit to optimistic no. and when he talks about 100 lca for Navy it only means he expect navy to buy that no. and as far as the Navy is concerned it has only ordered 40 LCA at the moment. the no. could rise but it will probably replace the current sqdrn of jaguar used by the Navy. and If you are saying that the 2nd ADS will be 64000tn class is true then I would be the happiest person in the world but for that to belive I need a valid link.... and I would trust the Navy chief not DRDO general for that matter.


----------



## jaison

Marshal said:


> You must be jocking.....Director general of DRDO has got nothing to do with the Navy and its purchase. He can go on and say what ever he want to..navy or for that matter the army and airforce will do every thing on their own terms and condition. otherwise the Arjun would be inducted in to army not in 100s but in 1000s, right now even 100 is bit to optimistic no. and when he talks about 100 lca for Navy it only means he expect navy to buy that no. and as far as the Navy is concerned it has only ordered 40 LCA at the moment. the no. could rise but it will probably replace the current sqdrn of jaguar used by the Navy. and If you are saying that the 2nd ADS will be 64000tn class is true then I would be the happiest person in the world but for that to belive I need a valid link.... and I would trust the Navy chief not DRDO general for that matter.


no u r wrong the navy has not yet placed orders for lca.......first it will place orders for 16 n-lca ,10 to replace harriers accompanying mig-29k in gorshkov and 4 for ground based training,familiarisation,........then 26 for ads-1 which due to delays will be operational only by 2014(which is why india had to bargain so hard for gorshkov).............later 48 orders will be placed for ads-2 and 12 will add to initial lot of 4 for reserve in case any is lost during war or peace time.......the total 100.............and the lca cannot replace the jaguar which is a 'long range','medium payload' strike plane and lca is 'medium range','lower payload' multi role fighter..............i hope u get the maths right wooof


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> no u r wrong the navy has not yet placed orders for lca.......first it will place orders for 16 n-lca ,10 to replace harriers accompanying mig-29k in gorshkov and 4 for ground based training,familiarisation,........then 26 for ads-1 which due to delays will be operational only by 2014(which is why india had to bargain so hard for gorshkov).............later 48 orders will be placed for ads-2 and 12 will add to initial lot of 4 for reserve in case any is lost during war or peace time.......the total 100.............and the lca cannot replace the jaguar which is a 'long range','medium payload' strike plane and lca is 'medium range','lower payload' multi role fighter..............i hope u get the maths right wooof



Where did you get that no.please provide a link. first DRDO director general and then 48 nlca....??? our Navy's current requirement is only 40 LCA. I hope this time you get your maths right..http://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval/jdw/jdw070910_1_n.shtml


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> no u r wrong the navy has not yet placed orders for lca.......first it will place orders for 16 n-lca ,10 to replace harriers accompanying mig-29k in gorshkov and 4 for ground based training,familiarisation,........then 26 for ads-1 which due to delays will be operational only by 2014(which is why india had to bargain so hard for gorshkov).............later 48 orders will be placed for ads-2 and 12 will add to initial lot of 4 for reserve in case any is lost during war or peace time.......the total 100.............and the lca cannot replace the jaguar which is a 'long range','medium payload' strike plane and lca is 'medium range','lower payload' multi role fighter..............i* hope u get the maths right wooof*


Dont act like that u know better, your knowledge is also limited so down a bit. No need to get in to unnecessary argument. just provide a valid link thats it.


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## jaison

ok let iac-2 be a 37,000ton one..............then if 24 for iac-1,24 for iac-2 exceeds 40, then were will you go for reserves, ground training(pilots have to practise ski jump on land before they move to the ship),and then where is the replacement for harriers in ins vikramdithya...........defence technology magazine is a very reliable source,i dont know why u cant the link,its working for me, but others can see it and judge what i say is correct or incorrect.........i will apologise if i do not have enough evidence but i have and my stand is strong........the article also hints possible indian cooperation with russia on fmbt 2 and half months before the actual news came out........you must also understand that it is not an indian defence magazine but a global one.


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## jaison

here is an another reliable source

FORCE(Feb 2008) link A Complete News Magazine on National Security
================================================== =============================
Stability with Power


Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR

By Prasun K. Sengupta


The Indian Navy (IN) in the next five years plans to deploy two potent carrier battle groups (CBG) to project power as well as act as a stabilising influence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond. The basic aim behind a powerful three-dimensional naval force, with the &#8216;blue-water element&#8217; jumping from the present 40 per cent to 60 per cent, is to keep India&#8217;s primary area of interest in IOR under adequate surveillance and to ensure that economic activity is not hindered. It is for this reason that the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was contracted for in January 2004 and was originally scheduled to be inducted into service by the IN by August 15 this year. 

India has already paid around USD 460 million of the USD 974 million earmarked for Gorshkov&#8217;s refit under a fixed price contract. However, Moscow now wants an additional USD 1.2 billion to refurbish the aircraft carrier, as the Russian shipyard, Sevmashpredpriyatiye, near the city of Archangelsk, has to do recabling work of 2,400 km (as opposed to 800 km as per original estimates), with the vessel being readied for service only by 2011. As things now stand, the Vikramaditya will have on board the Poima-E CMS comprising nine multi-function consoles, Podberezovik-ET1 long-range air/surface search radar and a Fregat-M2EM medium-range radar, all built by Salyut State Moscow Plant FSUE. Close-in air defence will be provided by four Kashtan-M systems, while medium-range air defence will be provided by 64 Altair 9M317ME medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAM) mounted on four 16-cell vertical launchers. 

To cater for the unforeseen unavailability of the Vikramaditya, the IN could contract state-owned Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) to undertake another refit of its ageing 28,000-tonne aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2008 to take care of any contingency through to 2012. But this option makes sense only if the navy in the near future acquires up to 12 pre-owned but refurbished AV-8B Harrier V/STOL combat aircraft from the US Marine Corps and upgrades them. This move will, in turn, avert another crisis facing the navy, this being the steadily dwindling fleet of Sea Harrier FRS Mk51 V/STOL aircraft that now numbers less than 10. 

Another option that needs to go hand-in-hand is for CSL to expedite construction of the first 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), which as of now is due for delivery only by 2012, *with a second, larger IAC (displacing 64,000 tonnes) following in 2017*. The primary early warning sensors and on-board air defence systems of the IAC will be identical to that on board the Project 15A DDG (these being the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR active phased-array radar with four antennae and Barak-2 long-range SAMs). In addition, twin OTOBreda 76-mm/62 main guns will be mounted. The IAC&#8217;s integrated platform management system, propulsion control system, automatic fire detection system, advanced power management system and battle damage control systems are all now being designed by L-3 MAPPS. Fincantieri (part of Italy&#8217;s Finmeccanica group) is designing and supplying the integrated propulsion system centered around four GE LM-2500 marine industrial gas turbines.

A third option for the IN (one that it prefers the most but is being prevented from voicing out due to political reasons) concerns the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), with India in return committing to the off-the-shelf purchase of about 40 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and four EA-18G Growlers, six Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye AEW & C aircraft and up to 12 Boeing/BAE Systems T-45C Goshawk lead-in fighter trainers. 

*The US has also offered to supply the critical steam catapults for the second, bigger IAC to be built by CSL, which will enable the vessel to house all aircraft types acquired by the IN *for conducting operations from the leased Kitty Hawk (in contrast, the Vikramaditya and the first IAC will have STOBAR configurations that preclude the need for a steam catapult for launching aircraft from the carriers&#8217; decks). If this option is exercised by India, the Kitty Hawk, which can accommodate 85 aircraft and helicopters (it is presently home ported in Yokosuka, Japan and will be decommissioned by the year&#8217;s end) will be subjected to a 15-month service life extension programme (SLEP) costing about USD 150 million, which will add another 10 years of service life to the vessel. At the same time, its on-board armaments suite will be upgraded to accommodate two Raytheon-built RIM-162 ESSM medium-range SAM launchers and a close-in weapons system comprising four RIM-116 RAM missile launchers and four Vulcan Phalanx 20mm gatling guns. The entire commercial transaction, if undertaken, will be channelled through the US&#8217; Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract implementation process. ================================================== =============================

As clearly mentioned above refit of INS Virat does't sounds logical unless IN buys USMC AV-8b and upgrades them. In both(AV-8B or package USS KITTY HAWK) options US is more or less involved. In any case IN should be having atleast 1 carrier('The Aircraft Carrier is Central to our Concept of Operations' says Flag officer commanding-in-Chief,VICE ADMIRAL J.S Bedi /force dec 2007). As far as relation of IN navy with US is concerned it's climbing up e.g- INS JALASHWA, Navel exercises and P-8i LR-MPA in final stage. IN is interested in having 5th gen fighter on 2nd IAC. It will either be navel version of IAF/russia 5th gen or F-35 a/b/c. Taking serious look at IN, it plans and already acquiring AMPHIBIOUS capability. It more or less means shore/land attack. Supporting them will be fighters Jets. These fighters just can't be V/STOL bcoz of their limited capability. And MRCA in STOBAR configuration also limits F.Jets capability in terms of combat load. So IN might be operating heavy 5th gen fighter from second IAC with catapult assisted take-off. Catapult will either be M.I USA or proposed joint development of electro-megentic catapult(force june 07). Considering the plans of IN USS KITTY HAWK will be a good training and transformation ground for the NAVAIR pilot from V/STOL / STOBAR to CTOAL. To me, package USS KITTY HAWK is better than other(refit INS VIRAT).

To some one it might look like wet dream. But current trend suggest that GOI is doing 1 by 1 to keep RED-LOBBY cool. And who knows package USS KITTY HAWK is following C-130 , P-8I, INS Jalashwa. As IN is bringing back 2 back surprises it might be another.

this thread can help you
Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR
so what do you think,are u the happiest person on earth now.


----------



## nitesh

Marshal said:


> Dont act like that u know better, your knowledge is also limited so down a bit. No need to get in to unnecessary argument. just provide a valid link thats it.



marshal ,jaison chill guys no need to get personal please.


----------



## Marshal

jaison said:


> here is an another reliable source
> 
> FORCE(Feb 2008) link A Complete News Magazine on National Security
> ================================================== =============================
> Stability with Power
> 
> 
> Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR
> 
> By Prasun K. Sengupta
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy (IN) in the next five years plans to deploy two potent carrier battle groups (CBG) to project power as well as act as a stabilising influence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond. The basic aim behind a powerful three-dimensional naval force, with the blue-water element jumping from the present 40 per cent to 60 per cent, is to keep Indias primary area of interest in IOR under adequate surveillance and to ensure that economic activity is not hindered. It is for this reason that the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was contracted for in January 2004 and was originally scheduled to be inducted into service by the IN by August 15 this year.
> 
> India has already paid around USD 460 million of the USD 974 million earmarked for Gorshkovs refit under a fixed price contract. However, Moscow now wants an additional USD 1.2 billion to refurbish the aircraft carrier, as the Russian shipyard, Sevmashpredpriyatiye, near the city of Archangelsk, has to do recabling work of 2,400 km (as opposed to 800 km as per original estimates), with the vessel being readied for service only by 2011. As things now stand, the Vikramaditya will have on board the Poima-E CMS comprising nine multi-function consoles, Podberezovik-ET1 long-range air/surface search radar and a Fregat-M2EM medium-range radar, all built by Salyut State Moscow Plant FSUE. Close-in air defence will be provided by four Kashtan-M systems, while medium-range air defence will be provided by 64 Altair 9M317ME medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAM) mounted on four 16-cell vertical launchers.
> 
> To cater for the unforeseen unavailability of the Vikramaditya, the IN could contract state-owned Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) to undertake another refit of its ageing 28,000-tonne aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2008 to take care of any contingency through to 2012. But this option makes sense only if the navy in the near future acquires up to 12 pre-owned but refurbished AV-8B Harrier V/STOL combat aircraft from the US Marine Corps and upgrades them. This move will, in turn, avert another crisis facing the navy, this being the steadily dwindling fleet of Sea Harrier FRS Mk51 V/STOL aircraft that now numbers less than 10.
> 
> *Another option that needs to go hand-in-hand is for CSL to expedite construction of the first 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), which as of now is due for delivery only by 2012, with a second, larger IAC (displacing 64,000 tonnes) following in 2017. *The primary early warning sensors and on-board air defence systems of the IAC will be identical to that on board the Project 15A DDG (these being the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR active phased-array radar with four antennae and Barak-2 long-range SAMs). In addition, twin OTOBreda 76-mm/62 main guns will be mounted. The IACs integrated platform management system, propulsion control system, automatic fire detection system, advanced power management system and battle damage control systems are all now being designed by L-3 MAPPS. Fincantieri (part of Italys Finmeccanica group) is designing and supplying the integrated propulsion system centered around four GE LM-2500 marine industrial gas turbines.
> 
> *A third option for the IN *(one that it prefers the most but is being prevented from voicing out due to political reasons) concerns the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), with India in return committing to the off-the-shelf purchase of about 40 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and four EA-18G Growlers, six Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye AEW & C aircraft and up to 12 Boeing/BAE Systems T-45C Goshawk lead-in fighter trainers.
> 
> *The US has also offered to supply the critical steam catapults for the second, bigger IAC to be built by CSL, which will enable the vessel to house all aircraft types acquired by the IN *for conducting operations from the leased Kitty Hawk (in contrast, the Vikramaditya and the first IAC will have STOBAR configurations that preclude the need for a steam catapult for launching aircraft from the carriers decks). If this option is exercised by India, the Kitty Hawk, which can accommodate 85 aircraft and helicopters (it is presently home ported in Yokosuka, Japan and will be decommissioned by the years end) will be subjected to a 15-month service life extension programme (SLEP) costing about USD 150 million, which will add another 10 years of service life to the vessel. At the same time, its on-board armaments suite will be upgraded to accommodate two Raytheon-built RIM-162 ESSM medium-range SAM launchers and a close-in weapons system comprising four RIM-116 RAM missile launchers and four Vulcan Phalanx 20mm gatling guns. The entire commercial transaction, if undertaken, will be channelled through the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract implementation process. ================================================== =============================
> 
> As clearly mentioned above refit of INS Virat does't sounds logical unless IN buys USMC AV-8b and upgrades them. In both(AV-8B or package USS KITTY HAWK) options US is more or less involved. In any case IN should be having atleast 1 carrier('The Aircraft Carrier is Central to our Concept of Operations' says Flag officer commanding-in-Chief,VICE ADMIRAL J.S Bedi /force dec 2007). As far as relation of IN navy with US is concerned it's climbing up e.g- INS JALASHWA, Navel exercises and P-8i LR-MPA in final stage. IN is interested in having 5th gen fighter on 2nd IAC. It will either be navel version of IAF/russia 5th gen or F-35 a/b/c. Taking serious look at IN, it plans and already acquiring AMPHIBIOUS capability. It more or less means shore/land attack. Supporting them will be fighters Jets. These fighters just can't be V/STOL bcoz of their limited capability. And MRCA in STOBAR configuration also limits F.Jets capability in terms of combat load. So IN might be operating heavy 5th gen fighter from second IAC with catapult assisted take-off. Catapult will either be M.I USA or proposed joint development of electro-megentic catapult(force june 07). Considering the plans of IN USS KITTY HAWK will be a good training and transformation ground for the NAVAIR pilot from V/STOL / STOBAR to CTOAL. To me, package USS KITTY HAWK is better than other(refit INS VIRAT).
> 
> To some one it might look like wet dream. But current trend suggest that GOI is doing 1 by 1 to keep RED-LOBBY cool. And who knows package USS KITTY HAWK is following C-130 , P-8I, INS Jalashwa. As IN is bringing back 2 back surprises it might be another.
> 
> this thread can help you
> Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR
> so what do you think,are u the happiest person on earth now.



You call this a reliable sourse!!! .......this is an article and read it carefully ..it is suggesting what india should do and should not do...In entire article he is talking about the option that India have........nothing reliable in it.


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## jaison

he said that india may have an option of choosing the amerian carrier but he never said india should build 64,000 ton carrier but said it is going to be built and the US has offered steam catapults.......building a heavier ads-2 is not an option put forward by the writer but it is being done........and sorry mate i give up i just cant convince u with any kind of source........guess others others must have come to the conclusion abt who is wrong.........but you have the freedom to believe on the contraryther goes all my effort to convince u....keep laughing man u r the winner


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## Marshal

jaison said:


> he said that india had an option of choosing the amerian carrier but he never said india should build 64,000 ton carrier but said it is going to be built and the US has offered steam catapults.......building a heavier ads-2 is not an option put forward by the writer but it is being done........and sorry mate i give up i just cant convince u with any kind of source........guess others others must have come to the conclusion abt who is wrong.........but you have the freedom to believe on the contraryther goes all my effort to convince u.



Instead of just talking Why dont you bring some reliable sourse...??? every one knows here who is prasoon K sengupta....and how reliable he is...

anyway Lets put an end to this argument. cuz it will become clear in few years time. no point of having argument at this moment. so cheers


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## Keysersoze

There was never a offer for a American carrier....I wish people wouldn't keep bringing that up....


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## jaison

Keysersoze said:


> There was never a offer for a American carrier....I wish people wouldn't keep bringing that up....



it only said an american carrier might be offered,but thats just a rumor which was cleared by robert gates........it doesnt matter the current projects fill our requirements........the intersting thing about construction of ships in india is diversification of workload,l&T does hull work,landing surface while sail provides steel,tata provides command and control and these are very encouraging..............when lca goes into production the same will apply for it also,so this may result in saving time and i am happy that things are going well for the lca.....hopefully by 2012-13 we may see tejas with new engine,hal-elta 2052 or captor aesa radar,mayavi ecm,irst and astra........then it will be a formidable machine for anyone to take on with awacs backup.


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## Keysersoze

Again it was never offered.......

The controversy over India's purchase of a globally capable aircraft carrier is finally laid to rest. Last week, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was in New Delhi, the defense community in India was abuzz with rumors that India would be purchasing the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk (BusinessWeek.com, 2/26/08), which is slated for decommissioning this year. The Bush Administration tried to shoot down the speculation, growing across the blogosphere in both India and the U.S., that the Americans were preparing to take the unprecedented move of sending an aircraft carrier to another country's navy. "The Navy has no plans of transferring the Kitty Hawk to India," said Lt. Col. Clay Doss, a U.S. Navy spokesperson in Washington. Still, Indian defense analysts insisted the two governments were indeed considering a deal.

It's now becoming clear, however, that the Indians were fanning the Kitty Hawk rumors in order to get what they really wanted&#8212;a better deal on an aircraft carrier they've been trying to buy from Russia. On Feb. 27, India's Defense Secretary V.K. Singh put to rest the speculation about the Kitty Hawk by announcing that New Delhi had renegotiated a deal with Moscow to buy a Russian aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov.

India had originally decided to buy the Gorshkov in 2004 in a $1.5 billion deal&#8212;along with fighter planes and helicopters&#8212;and paid over $500 million in advance with a delivery date of 2008. However it's now 2008 and India still doesn't have its carrier. That's because the Russians say they need to further modernize the ship before they can deliver it to the Indians. To pay for the additional work on the Gorshkov, Moscow wants an additional $1.2 billion from India. Many defense analysts now believe the Indians used the Kitty Hawk as a ploy to push the Russians into committing to the delivery, albeit overdue, of their carrier.
Russians Peeved?

But that plan may have backfired. Since early last month the Russians have been sending out feelers to India about scrapping the deal entirely and keeping the Gorshkov in Russian hands. Since the Indians knew they weren't going to get the Kitty Hawk, they weren't about to let the Gorshkov deal collapse. So on Feb. 19 Defense Secretary Singh traveled to Russia to hammer out an agreement. Under the revised agreement, Moscow has agreed to deliver the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov by 2012, and India has agreed to cough up the additional $1.2 billion.

At a time when Indian defense spending is surging, the Russians might also be peeved at losing their prominent position as the country's No. 1 supplier of military equipment. Indian defense analysts and foreign buyers expect India to spend $100 billion on defense equipment and technology over the next 5 to 10 years. In the fiscal year ending Mar. 31, 2008, India's defense spending will total $10 billion. On Feb 29 Indian Finance Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram proposed a 10&#37; hike in the defense budget for the new fiscal year and promised "more funds if required." 

Industry analysts see India's decision to pay up as a way of placating the Russians, who are already feeling nervous about India's increasingly friendly ties with the U.S. For nearly four decades India's military relied on Russia as its premier supplier. In February, 2007, India announced plans to buy 40 Su-30MK two-seater fighters for $1.2 billion. Russia's MIG Corp. is also in the running to sell fighter planes to India. Now U.S. and European companies, with their cutting-edge technology, are in the fray as well. Lockheed Martin (LMT), Boeing (BA), and Sweden's Saab, for instance, are some of the bidders for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircrafts. Vying for artillery contracts are Britain's BAE Systems and Israel's Soltam. 

ndia Did Not Use Leverage

India needs an aircraft carrier soon. The Indian navy will probably decommission the 50-year-old carrier INS Viraat in 2010, while the first indigenous aircraft carrier, being built at the Cochin Shipyard in southern India, won't be ready for another five years. "Russia knows this and wants to pressure India into the purchases," says Dipankar Banerjee, director of the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies in New Delhi.

Not everyone is happy about the deal. Defense analysts in New Delhi say India did not use its considerable leverage with the Russians, and simply succumbed to the new demands on the Gorshkov deal. Retired Admiral Arun Prakash is scathing. He was head of the Indian Navy in 2004 when the original deal was "laboriously and painstakingly negotiated for 11 months, and the contract sealed and signed."

He is disappointed by Russia "reneging on the deal" and says Russia "gifted" the Gorshkov to India in exchange for a $1.5 billion contract to buy planes and helicopters and "revive their terminally ill shipbuilding and aircraft manufacturing industries." He says the carrier Cochin Shipyard is building will be a good alternative for the Gorshkov. "What better bargaining chip do you need?" he asks.

Perhaps. But many are skeptical about India's capability as a defense equipment manufacturer. India's state run Hindustan Aeronautics has been working on a light-combat fighter for years&#8212;it's now 10 years behind schedule. "India's indigenous development is more in keeping with the Nehruvian philosophy of modernity, but combat equipment is made by countries with the highest level of military expertise," says Marook Raza, a New Delhi defense analyst.

With Keith Epstein in Washington and Jason Bush in Moscow

Why India Talked Up a U.S. Carrier Deal


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## jaison

ofcourse , it was not offered that is what i said....i posted the article only to show that we are going to build a 64,000 ton carrier.


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## nitesh

India: LCA Tejas by 2010 - But Foreign Help Sought With Engine

India: LCA Tejas by 2010 - But Foreign Help Sought With Engine
20-Aug-2008 15:19 EDT

India&#8217;s fighter strength has been declining in recent years, as the MiG-21s that form the largest component of its fleet are lost in crashes, or retired due to age and wear. Some MiG-21s are being modernized to MiG-21bis &#8216;Bison&#8217; configuration, while other current fighter types are undergoing modernization programs in order to maintain the fighter force until replacements can arrive. On which note, an ongoing tender has Russian, French, American, Swedish and European manufacturers dueling for a multi-billion dollar, 126+ plane light-medium fighter sale.

This still leaves India without a low-end solution to the twin problems besetting its overall fleet: numbers, and age. The MiG-21bis program adds years of life to those airframes, but that extended lifespan is still quite finite; by 2020, it is very unlikely that any MiG-21s will remain in service. As for the MMRCA program, it may replace some of India&#8217;s mid-range fighters &#8211; but that still leaves replacement of the MiG-21 fleet unfulfilled. In this environment, the status of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project matters a great deal to the Indian Air Force&#8217;s future prospects, as their level of confidence in its longer-term success will affect their immediate buys. The choices made in the LCA&#8217;s design will also affect the lightweight fighter&#8217;s export potential, which in turn feeds back into the overall program&#8217;s costs and viability for India over its lifetime.

The latest additions to this article include a whirlwind of developments around the indigenous Kaveri engine. As some predicted, the project&#8217;s performance failures have finally killed Kaveri as a fighter engine. A foreign partnership to produce a replacement has reportedly been selected, and other vendors are reportedly canvassed to provide interim engines. Meanwhile, Kaveri engines may find an unexpected use within India&#8217;s military&#8230;


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## jaison

well you know what is going to happen to lca.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> well you know what is going to happen to lca.



I am not getting what u r trying to say here?


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## jaison

am saying that lca is doing well and u know the timeline of it being inducted so why post such articles.......everyone knows tht lca is going to be inducted by 2010 and kaveri has problems which are going to be rectified i the future with snecma.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> am saying that lca is doing well and u know the timeline of it being inducted so why post such articles.......everyone knows tht lca is going to be inducted by 2010 and kaveri has problems which are going to be rectified i the future with snecma.



sorry sir, pardon my ignorance.


----------



## jaison

nitesh said:


> sorry sir, pardon my ignorance.


i accept ur apologies


----------



## nitesh

jaison said:


> i accept ur apologies



Thanks a lot for enlightening me


----------



## Neo

nitesh said:


> Thanks a lot for enlightening me



And this is your 1000th post! 

Your posts are humble, moderate, educative and enlightening.

Well done mate!


----------



## nitesh

Neo said:


> And this is your 1000th post!
> 
> Your posts are humble, moderate, educative and enlightening.
> 
> Well done mate!



Thanks big bro.


----------



## jaison

nitesh said:


> Thanks big bro.


congradulations mate,you must have been very busy posting tht no in a short time,keep ur reputation up.


----------



## nitesh

jaison said:


> congradulations mate,you must have been very busy posting tht no in a short time,keep ur reputation up.



Hey thanks a lot but if somebody gets hands on this complete article
India: LCA Tejas by 2010 - But Foreign Help Sought With Engine

please post


----------



## jaison

nitesh said:


> Hey thanks a lot but if somebody gets hands on this complete article
> India: LCA Tejas by 2010 - But Foreign Help Sought With Engine
> 
> please post


 
am sorry if i had offended u,next time i will make sure that i do post


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> am sorry if i had offended u,next time i will make sure that i do post



My intention of posting that half article was this interesting line:



> Meanwhile, Kaveri engines may find an unexpected use within Indias military



What exactly is the use?


----------



## jaison

nitesh said:


> My intention of posting that half article was this interesting line:
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is the use?


eeerrrrrrrrrr to propel ships and ucavs.


----------



## nitesh

jaison said:


> eeerrrrrrrrrr to propel ships and ucavs.



Yes your point is correct on both front. But which UAV. The High altitude nishant? What are the specs? Will it be armed?


----------



## jaison

nitesh said:


> Yes your point is correct on both front. But which UAV. The High altitude nishant? What are the specs? Will it be armed?


it will be a new one.....nishant has a turboprop,but ucavs use jet engines.....
i think u might hav read this
India joins select group to develop UCAV technology 

Ravi Sharma 

The latest is designed to deliver weapons and attack targets 




&#8216;The programme will develop know-how for a swept wing&#8217;

UCAV will have route and target details


Bangalore: India has joined a select group of countries that have launched programmes to develop the technology for an Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle (UCAV). 

The UCAVs or &#8216;combat drones,&#8217; which are the latest class in Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), differ from the latter in that they are specifically designed to deliver weapons and attack targets, possibly with an even higher degree of autonomy.

The Indian programme, which is an internal effort from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will involve developing the know-how for a swept wing, stealth design and composite construction technical demonstrator that will demonstrate &#8220;the technical feasibility, military utility and operational value for a networked system of high performance&#8221; weaponised UCAVs. 

Disclosing aspects of the programme the DRDO&#8217;s Chief Controller, Research and Development (Aeronautics and Material Sciences), D. Banerjee, said that with &#8220;stealth obviously be an important issue&#8221; the fuselage would have to carry internally housed weapon bays. Stealth would also require the power plant to be internally mounted and of a non-afterburning turbofan engine type. Specifications for issues such as payload, endurance, retractable landing gear and hard points for auxiliary fuel tanks are yet to be finalised. 

Dr. Banerjee added that the DRDO had already created facilities for radar cross simulation (identification of radar reflecting areas) and measurement of radar cross section (describes the extent to which an object reflects an incident electromagnetic wave). 

He disclosed that the Bangalore-based DRDO laboratory, the Aeronautical Development Establishment, would be the nodal agency for the UCAV programme. 

Current UCAV concepts call for aircraft which can operate virtually autonomously. The UCAV will be programmed with route and target details, and can conduct the mission without help from human controllers. 

Current global programmes include the French nEWROn, Israel&#8217;s Eitan, British Taranis, China&#8217;s Anjian and the US&#8217;s X-45. 

These programmes which are basically meant to demonstrate that the technology are in various stages of development. The UCAVs can be used for Suppression of Enemy Air Defences, electronic warfare, surveillance, precision strike and associated operations.

Dr. Banerjee also disclosed that the DRDO was looking for a partner from the private sector for its Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). 

While the Expression of Intent has already been put out, a formal Request for Proposal will be out in September, with a partner being chosen within four months. 

The DRDO&#8217;s MALE surveillance UAV is expected to have an endurance of 24 hours, can operate at 35,000 ft., and will have autonomous take-off and landing, wheeled undercarriage and a single (Rotax) piston engine. 

The first flight of the MALE UAV is expected in three years. It could supplement/replace the Israeli &#8216;Heron,&#8217; around 50 of which were sold to the Indian defence forces. Estimates are that the Indian defence forces are keen on acquiring around 80 to 100 MALE UAVs by 2010-11. 

Commenting on the need for a partner, Dr. Banerjee said a partner would, besides bringing in funds, mean that the production agency is involved with the UAV right from the development stage, and also configure the vehicle to production practices. 

&#8220;We have had a nightmare transferring design to prototype. The time it takes is not configured in our time frames.

A production agency is experienced with production practices.&#8221; 

The MALE UAV could, according to Dr. Banerjee, be a forerunner to the DRDO going in for a High Altitude Long Endurance UAV.


nishant will be modified into a male,while ucav will be brand new with kaveri which is already operational.


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## nitesh

hey thanks for the info. But isn't kaveri dimensions are too much to fit in the UAV/UCAV


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## jaison

check this.raaytheon is the primary sponser,saab is also participating
Indair-2008 - 26- 27 August 2008: Hall No 6, Vigyan Bhawan, New Delhi


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## ashfaque

Friends don't you think we are obssesed with LCA, which is going no where at least next 5 to 10 years. Hey wakeup, these guys are fooling us and eating our tax money.


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## jaison

ashfaque said:


> Friends don't you think we are obssesed with LCA, which is going no where at least next 5 to 10 years. Hey wakeup, these guys are fooling us and eating our tax money.



this is the era of vibrant indian defence indutry with private r&d,infrastructure,expertise,with drdo's overhaul,infusion of foriegn technology thru transfer agreement the cii will built futuristic defence systems,there is much less corruption in indegenisation than bying things from outside.believe it or not the next 2 years will be full of testing new equipment and u will see the truth.by 2020 we aim to attain 70% indegenistion(IN already has 70% and this may rise) if we dont believe in them then who willwill it be u


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## nitesh

LCA-Tejas has completed 917 Test Flights successfully. (26-Aug-08).

* LCA has completed 917 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-282,PV1-171,PV2-102,PV3-93,LSP1-27,LSP2-9).
* 09th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 25th Aug 08.

(26-Aug-08)Tejas-LCA


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## nitesh

LCA-Tejas has completed 917 Test Flights successfully. (26-Aug-08).

* LCA has completed 917 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-282,PV1-171,PV2-102,PV3-93,LSP1-27,LSP2-9).
* 09th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 25th Aug 08.

(26-Aug-08)Tejas-LCA


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## nitesh

LCA-Tejas has completed 918 Test Flights successfully. (28-Aug-08).


LCA has completed 918 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-283,PV1-171,PV2-102,PV3-93,LSP1-27,LSP2-9). 
283rd flight of Tejas TD2 occurred on 27th Aug 08. 


(28-Aug-08)Tejas-LCA


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## flowli

&#21621;&#21621;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#36148;&#23376;&#37324;&#22238;&#36148;&#30340;&#21360;&#24230;&#26379;&#21451;&#30495;&#22810;&#65281;
LCA&#20173;&#22312;&#35797;&#39134;&#65292;JF&#65293;17&#24050;&#32463;&#25104;&#20891;&#20102;&#65292;&#21621;&#21621;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;


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## nitesh

&#39134;&#26426;&#25152;&#20351;&#29992;&#30340;&#31354;&#20891;&#27809;&#26377;&#20891;&#38431;
&#24182;&#35831;&#19981;&#35201;Troll&#20844;&#21496;&#19982;&#36825;&#35799;&#32844;&#20301;

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Marshal

nitesh said:


> &#39134;&#26426;&#25152;&#20351;&#29992;&#30340;&#31354;&#20891;&#27809;&#26377;&#20891;&#38431;
> &#24182;&#35831;&#19981;&#35201;Troll&#20844;&#21496;&#19982;&#36825;&#35799;&#32844;&#20301;



why are you guys talking in French??? ...why dont you try in African???


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## Neo

flowli said:


> &#21621;&#21621;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#36148;&#23376;&#37324;&#22238;&#36148;&#30340;&#21360;&#24230;&#26379;&#21451;&#30495;&#22810;&#65281;
> LCA&#20173;&#22312;&#35797;&#39134;&#65292;JF&#65293;17&#24050;&#32463;&#25104;&#20891;&#20102;&#65292;&#21621;&#21621;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;



Flowli &#65292;&#35531;&#19981;&#35201;&#23531;&#22312;&#22283;&#35486;&#12290; 
&#35613;&#35613;&#24744; !


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## nitesh

The Hindu : Karnataka News : Kaveri engine programme delinked from the Tejas

Kaveri engine programme delinked from the Tejas

Ravi Sharma
BANGALORE: In a move that will significantly affect two of Indias most ambitious aerospace endeavours, the Kaveri engine and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programmes are to be delinked from one another.

The projected development costs of the two programmes presently totals around Rs. 9,000 crores.

Launched specifically as the engine for the LCA, the developers of the Kaveri - the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)  have, despite spending almost 20 years and Rs. 2,000 crore, not been unable to come up with a workable product.

And more crucially even if the Kaveri does materialise in the years to come its present design configuration will not be able to satisfactorily power an overweight Tejas.

Relief
The delinking of the two programmes will bring relief to the customers of the Tejas, the Air Force, since it was they who had indicated over a year ago that the Kaveri with its present design configuration will not be able to power an overweight Tejas, to air staff requirements (ASRs).

The Air Force also indicated that they would place substantial orders for the LCA only if it meets their ASRs.

Dual path
Given the scenario of a long delayed Kaveri engine jeopardising the LCA programme, the top echelons of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) have decided to pursue a dual path. The delinking now allows the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designers of the Tejas, to go ahead in issuing a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine that can produce a thrust of around 95 kilo Newtons (kN).

The thrust that the Air Force has projected will be needed if the overweight (by 1.5 tonnes) Tejas is to be powered to meet ASRs.

The RFP is likely to be sent out to two global engine houses - the European consortium Eurojet Turbo for their EJ200 and General Electric for the GE F414.

French assistance
The delinking though is not the end of the road for the Kaveri. A committee headed by Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, has been asked by Air Headquarters to scrutinise an offer made by the French engine house Snecma to co-develop and co-produce an engine along with the GTRE.

Snecma will have to convince the committee that they can indeed co-develop with the GTRE, an engine with a thrust of around 95 kilo kN. Crucial aspects like the transfer of technology to GTRE, number of engines to be produced and costs involved will be studied by the committee.

The delinking will mean that the Tejas will get a ready made engine in the immediate future, while an indigenous GTRE-Snecma developed Kaveri could fructify in five or six years.


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## nitesh

Zee News - IAF to induct LCA Tejas by 2015
LCA TO BE INDUCTED BY 2015

Shillong, Sept 27: *The Indian Air Force will induct the home-grown light combat aircraft Tejas by 2015, Air Chief Marshal FH Major said on Friday. *

Admitting that the Tejas programme was running behind schedule, Major said, *the IAF has recently decided to absorb 20 Tejas aircraft and ten others with old engines for training. *

Designed and developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the single-engine supersonic fighter controlled by the pilot with electronically on-board computers, was mooted to replace the ageing fleet of MIGs. 

*About reports that the aircraft would be able to carry only limited weaponry, Major said, it was conceived in 1982. A new configuration has been developed and it has proved to be very capable, he added. *

Of late, experts had found complications such as that Tejas' US aeroengine GE404 did not have requisite thrust to give it power to carry its full load of weaponry. 

*LCA's present GE404 engines gives a thrust of only 80-85 kilo newtons, while the weapon payload of the fighter needed a thrust of 95-100 kilo newtons. *

Major admitted that there was some problems with the engine and search was on for a new one. 

"We are looking for a new engine and the RFP in this regard is expected to be issued soon," the Air chief said.


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## nitesh

LCA to be fitted with Israeli multi-mode radar 

Oct 03, 2008

Ravi Sharma 

BANGALORE: The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will, after years of delay, soon be fitted with its primary mission sensor, the multi-mode radar (MMR). 

P.S. Subramaniam, Programme Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence laboratory that is designing the LCA, told The Hindu that &#8220;airworthy units&#8221; of the Israeli &#8211; manufactured MMR would be arriving here early next week for integration into the aircraft. *The Elta designed and developed MMR, Elta EL/M-2052 which will be an interim option since India is developing an indigenous one, has already undergone tests on the flight test bed and ground rig in Israel. *

One of the most crucial pieces of equipment on any fighter aircraft, the MMR determines the operational effectiveness of the machine, with no fighter aircraft being in a position to perform as one without an MMR. 

In the LCA the MMR&#8217;s primary role will be to detect and locate targets, process the information, lock on the target and pass this input to the mission computer. From the mission computer this information will be utilised by the pilot as he contemplates weapon release activity. The MMR will also create ground and contour maps when selected.

The long delay in the arrival of the MMR has without doubt pushed the Rs.6,000-crore LCA programme back by many a year. Though initially ADA had intended to use the Ericsson Microwave Systems PS-05/A MMR, it was decided in the early 1990s to indigenously develop one. 

But the joint efforts by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hyderabad) and Electronics and Radar Development Laboratory (Bangalore) along with coordination from the Centre for Airborne Studies (CABS) failed to come up to expectations. This resulted in the ADA running weaponisation tests on the LCA with a weapon delivery pod, which is not a primary sensor, being forced to keep critical tests on hold.

The Hindu : National : LCA to be fitted with Israeli multi-mode radar


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## Contrarian

It cannot be the El/M 2052. Thats the Israeli AESA radar. It must be the Elta 2032 MMR.


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## nitesh

malaymishra123 said:


> It cannot be the El/M 2052. Thats the Israeli AESA radar. It must be the Elta 2032 MMR.



Yeah but let the tests begin then we will come to know the exact details.


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## nitesh

Aeronautical Development Agency


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## nitesh

Light Combat Aircraft to be delivered by 2011: Antony - Yahoo! India News

Light Combat Aircraft to be delivered by 2011: Antony

Sat, Oct 25 03:05 PM
Bangalore, Oct 25 (ANI): Union Defence Minister A K Antony today said that the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be delivered to the Indian Air Force *by 2011.*

Talking to media during his visit at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Antony said, "The final operational clearances for the indigenously developed aircraft will be given *by 2010."*

Antony, who also witnessed an air show in which latest aircraft including LCA, Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and SARAS showed their capabilities and strength, said that *LCA and ALH 'Dhruv' would be the prized induction in Air Force.*

*He also cleared all doubts about the engine used in LCA and the development of engine 'Kaveri' and the LCA prototype will take place simultaneously.*

*Expressing happiness over the functioning of the ALH, the Chief of the Air Staff, F.H. Major said that the process of weaponisation of the helicopter is taking place and the process is on. (ANI)*


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## su-47

delays and more delays. by the time LCA comes out, it'll be time to induct MCA.


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## Nihat

So if FOC is going to be given in late 2010 , that'll mean we can expect any IOC by next yr. , rrrriiiiiiggght ?


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## Nihat

No question of abandoning LCA project: Antony



> No question of abandoning LCA project: Antony
> 
> 25 Oct 2008, 1857 hrs IST, PTI
> 
> Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
> BANGALORE: Dispelling doubts over the viability of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), India on Saturday said the project was very much
> on track and there was no question of abandoning the programme, which would be completed by 2011.
> 
> "I can tell you with all confidence by end of 2010, the LCA is expected to get its full operational clearance and by 2011, I am sure IAF will be able to get the first delivery of the aircraft," Defence Minister A K Antony told reporters here, after reviewing the performance of the blue-chip Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> "There is no question of abandoning of the LCA project," Antony said, promising that the IAF would get a total of 70 Tejas for its proposed seven squadrons.
> 
> Noting that DRDO's Aeronautical Development agency-designed LCA project was being hotly debated along with the Arjun Main Battle Tank for the delays in design and development, the Defence Minister said despite the delay of over 26 years - the project was launched in 1982 - LCA was at last becoming a reality. "It is a success," he said defending the LCA project.
> 
> "I have discussed the LCA's progress with the officials of HAL, IAF and from the Defence Ministry and they are all happy with its functioning," he added.
> 
> He said initially, the IAF would get delivery of 20 LCAs for one of its two squadrons to be raised by 2011 and as a follow-on order, the IAF would raise five more squadrons. In all probability, the first two squadrons would be based in Sulur air base near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu.


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## asaad-ul-islam

I don't get it, why doesn't the IAF just induct LCA to replace the older aircraft like the MiGs? is it absolutely necessary for them keep on raising the standards? this isn't going to help their defense industry one bit. they should just induct it now, and let it mature through different batches.

they should do the same with Arjun, buy a few to help the industry out. Pakistan has the same problem, but on a lower scale. the military does not bother looking at the private industry. we have a ton of UAV's and equipment, all in the private sector. instead we buy sh*ty western tactical UAV's for ridiculous prices.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## BATMAN

> There is no question of abandoning of the LCA project," Antony said, promising that the IAF would get a total of 70 Tejas for its proposed seven squadrons


It sounds like end of another marathon similar to Arjun, whose coffin was nailed with order of 124 tanks which actually will never be made and never be placed as MBT at front lines.
I think above quoted 70 Tejas will serve more like trainers rather than any sort of combat duty and than a new revelation would be made of MCA and propaganda preperation seems to be already in the air.


----------



## p2prada

asaad-ul-islam said:


> I don't get it, why doesn't the IAF just induct LCA to replace the older aircraft like the MiGs?* is it absolutely necessary for them keep on raising the standards? this isn't going to help their defense industry one bit.*



No, sorry. Raising bars will help the defense sector in the long run. It is good for DRDO. 



> they should just induct it now, and let it mature through different batches.



Let LCA reach FOC. Then we can see.



> they should do the same with Arjun, buy a few to help the industry out. Pakistan has the same problem, but on a lower scale.



The industry is state owned. It can support large losses. Just like indian oil companies.



> the military does not bother looking at the private industry. we have a ton of UAV's and equipment, all in the private sector. instead we buy sh*ty western tactical UAV's for ridiculous prices.



Have you ever wondered if these UAVs are good enough.


----------



## ejaz007

*Indian Air Force to Induct LCA Tejas Fighter Jets by 2010: Defence Minister*
Dated 29/10/2008


Union Defence Minister A K Antony today said that the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be delivered to the Indian Air Force by 2011. Talking to media during his visit at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Antony said, "The final operational clearances for the indigenously developed aircraft will be given by 2010."

Antony, who also witnessed an air show in which latest aircraft including LCA, Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and SARAS showed their capabilities and strength, said that LCA and ALH 'Dhruv' would be the prized induction in Air Force. He also cleared all doubts about the engine used in LCA and the development of engine 'Kaveri' and the LCA prototype will take place simultaneously.

Expressing happiness over the functioning of the ALH, the Chief of the Air Staff, F.H. Major said that the process of weaponisation of the helicopter is taking place and the process is on.


Indian Air Force to Induct LCA Tejas Fighter Jets by 2010: Defence Minister | India Defence


----------



## nitesh

South India's Best-News,Cinema,Fashion,Music,Food



> Kaveri engine for LCA in 2009 The much-delayed indigenous Kaveri engine will be fitted to the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) as the engine has successfully completed all air-worthy tests, said T Mohana Rao, Director, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).
> The GTRE is manufacturing the Kaveri engine and the programme had begun way back in 1998.&#8220;The latest test that was conducted in Russia in September has yielded positive results and we are hopeful to fit the engine to the LCA by the end of 2009,&#8221; he said


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## shrivatsa

I am really,conflicting news I read every other day.Just hoping for the best


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## nitesh

check this: LiveFist: EXCLUSIVE Photos: LCA Tejas Oct 25 sortie abort on bad weather


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## Nihat

Thanks for the pictures Nitish , the LCA looks sleek with the Grey paint - never liked the earlier paint.

Pardon my lack of knowledge but I have a small question about LCA - As of today it has completed 937 test flights and weapons testing is due to be done by March 09 , so how many flight hours must LCA clock before IOC is given and also there is little info. on how many test parameters are left and how many flight hrs have been done.


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## nitesh

Check the post no. 603 buddy in this thread most of the questions will be answered automatically


----------



## Nishan_101

asaad-ul-islam said:


> I don't get it, why doesn't the IAF just induct LCA to replace the older aircraft like the MiGs? is it absolutely necessary for them keep on raising the standards? this isn't going to help their defense industry one bit. they should just induct it now, and let it mature through different batches.
> 
> they should do the same with Arjun, buy a few to help the industry out. Pakistan has the same problem, but on a lower scale. the military does not bother looking at the private industry. we have a ton of UAV's and equipment, all in the private sector. instead we buy sh*ty western tactical UAV's for ridiculous prices.



Salam &Hellow 2 every 1,i am PAKISTANI
I was hearin abt it since years that it is going through problems but i think & u people should also think before repling, as Indians as welll as military lovers that the *L.C.A should be sold out to some other country *that need it or need to market it with some modifications and the amount should be put in to MCA and FGFA and just go for *MCA(as Tejas so their name remains same) and for FGFA especially as Indians as well as try 2 get Grippen MMRCin nos.300 as i read about it that IAF love SUPER-Grippen like PAF. * 
MCA and FGFA are way superior and IAF could induct them in nos. like 500-500 which is good 2 replace MMRCA by 2030 and also think that the N-LCA is also not capable as people consider they should go for more MIG-29K's /F/A-18'sI if funds are available and place an order for their three carriers 2 have that A/C. ok reply me now ok. 
ALLAH-HAFIZ by Nishan_101


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## nitesh

can you please put the things in plain english so that it can be understood.


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## nitesh

Deccan Herald - Kaveri in LCA by 2009

Kaveri in LCA by 2009
Bangalore, DHNS:
*Kaveri engine will be installed into the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by the end of 2009,* said Director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao.

Briefing newspersons on the sidelines of a function organised to mark the Raising Day function of GTRE at its premises at C V Raman Nagar, Rao said, *&#8220;Two more milestones are yet to be crossed by the engine, prior to its installation which is likely to be by Dec 2009.&#8221; It has cleared all the tests for airworthy certification, he said. The engine is yet to be tried under fully simulated altitude conditions, which will take place in Moscow between February and March, next year.* India&#8217;s consultants in the venture are CIAM of Russia, MTU of Germany and ATC in UK, he added.


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## s90

"In 2007, it was reported that the Tejas in its present form may not be able to meet the IAF's Air Staff Requirements (ASRs).Reportedly,its performance in terms of thrust and airframe qualities was still unsatisfactory."


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## nitesh

Lot of water has been flown since then


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## Nihat

Kaveri in LCA by 2009



> Kaveri in LCA by 2009
> Bangalore, DHNS:
> 
> Kaveri engine will be installed into the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by the end of 2009, said Director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao.
> 
> Briefing newspersons on the sidelines of a function organised to mark the Raising Day function of GTRE at its premises at C V Raman Nagar, Rao said, &#8220;Two more milestones are yet to be crossed by the engine, prior to its installation which is likely to be by Dec 2009.&#8221; It has cleared all the tests for airworthy certification, he said. The engine is yet to be tried under fully simulated altitude conditions, which will take place in Moscow between February and March, next year. India&#8217;s consultants in the venture are CIAM of Russia, MTU of Germany and ATC in UK, he added.



What did they do to the KAveri engine to suddenly make it air worthy.

I hope that they still go ahead and induct the first batch of 20 LCA with F404 engine by mid next year , it's going to be deployed somewhere in south I hear and frankly cannot wait for the day to come soon enough .


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## nitesh

The problem was with the model K-9 but after then K-10 was developed and it was working fine so seems the work is going on for that version (my guess).

There were two major issues 

over weight 
less thrust

seems like these are sorted out but to which extent need to be seen. But it seems like due the DDM they are becoming so media unfriendly that this will complicate the situation more. Be ready for more DDM articles


----------



## Nihat

We have an updated 941 Test flights of Tejas as of yesterday and these were definatly night flights as I could here 3-4 jets buzzing over whitefield in B'lore , also some activity this morning.


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## Nishan_101

Hi, I think that IAF & INAF may not place greater orders for LCA n they r lookin 4 super grippen(IAF) and F-18's (INAF) am i right or not give me a detailed answer. Other than the facts that they r sayin it is complete and is very potent which every1 knows its not ok


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## nitesh

The Hindu News Update Service

India's Tejas LCA makes maiden flight by night
Bangalore (PTI): India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft achieved an important milestone when it took to the skies in the night, meeting all its test objectives.

In its maiden flight by night, the Prototype Vehicle-3 aircraft took off at 8:05 pm from Bangalore airport on Friday and carried out a set of predetermined manoeuvres to demonstrate its night capability, a DRDO release said.

The aircraft was piloted by Gp Capt N Tiwari of the National Flight Test Centre. Wg Cdr R K Dash as the Test Director along with several senior officers of the Tejas Programme was at the telemetry station monitoring the progress of the flight. The flight met all its test objectives, the release said.

"The night qualification marks an important step towards achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC)," the release said, adding, "the flawless flight will pave the way for systems and weapon integration for delivery by night."

"The modifications for achieving night capability has been worked out by a team in Aeronautical Development Agency and supported by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited supported by IAF, CEMILAC and DGAQA," it was stated.


----------



## Nihat

Tejas's maiden night flight



> Bangalore (PTI): India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft achieved an important milestone when it took to the skies in the night, meeting all its test objectives.
> 
> In its maiden flight by night, the Prototype Vehicle-3 aircraft took off at 8:05 pm from Bangalore airport on Friday and carried out a set of predetermined manoeuvres to demonstrate its night capability, a DRDO release said.
> 
> The aircraft was piloted by Gp Capt N Tiwari of the National Flight Test Centre. Wg Cdr R K Dash as the Test Director along with several senior officers of the Tejas Programme was at the telemetry station monitoring the progress of the flight. The flight met all its test objectives, the release said.
> 
> "The night qualification marks an important step towards achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC)," the release said, adding, "the flawless flight will pave the way for systems and weapon integration for delivery by night."
> 
> "The modifications for achieving night capability has been worked out by a team in Aeronautical Development Agency and supported by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited supported by IAF, CEMILAC and DGAQA," it was stated.


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## nitesh

seems like this is for the 100KN engine the GTRE director is talking about 90KN engine I suppose

India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may be ready in 4 years

PARIS: India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may finally roll out in four years' time, ending decades of false starts to power the country's
aspirations for an indigenous fighter aircraft.

Under plans being given final touches, European aero-engine major Snecma is expected to join hands with the DRDO to unveil the military jet engine in four years, leading to commercial production of the LCA Tejas multi-role fighters.

Apart from the four-billion Euro turnover company Snecma, Russian NPO Saturn is contending for the bid to co-develop and co-produce Kaveri engine.

The DRDO is expected to shortlist the winner "any time now," a top Snecma official said and expressed confidence that once the contract is awarded the engines would be ready in four years' time.

"We have submitted a short and secure four-year plan as the Kaveri engine development time-frame," said Xavier Sahut D'izarn, Vice President, Military Engines, Snecma group.

India, after developing and testing nine prototypes of two 'Kaveri' engines, decided to seek foreign collaboration as the aero-engine repeatedly failed in high-altitude tests conducted in Russian facilities.

Refusing to be drawn in on where Indian scientists had faced problems in attempts to develop a purely indigenous fighter engine, the Snecma official said that Kaveri would be of nine-tonne capacity engine with low thrust to weight ratio.

"We will transfer full know-how and the engines would be developed and produced by HAL in India," D'izarn said.

"Its going to be a joint Indo-French engine with shared expertise with gradual transfer of full know-how," the Snecma Vice President said, adding that while high pressure part of the engine will be produced by Snecma, the low pressure part will be developed by Bangalore-based GTRE, a DRDO subsidiary.

The speed up in efforts to give final touches to the development of Kaveri engine assumes significance as Defence Minister A K Anthony has given a go-ahead for commercial production of 150 Tejas fighters.

The initial 40 Tejas are to powered by US General Electric404 engine. But DRDO officials recently said that the GE404 lacked power to enable Tejas to undertake its multi-role capability in full.

But now the Snecma official says the nine-tonne thrust capability and low thrust ratio would give the successive Tejas capability of greater manoeuvrability to undertake air-to-air, air-to-ground as well as carrier-borne operations.

The DRDO has been working on Kaveri engine for past 16 years and after coming up with problems in giving requisite high altitude thrust to the engines decided to float international tenders in 2005 for co-development.

Four companies -- US Military Engine leader Pratt and Whitny and GE, European engine maker Snecma and Russian NPO Saturn -- responded to the first Request for Proposals (RFP).

The RFP was modified and re-floated in 2006 extending the requirements from co-development to include co-production, as western companies were not forthcoming for mere co-development. 

India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may be ready in 4 years- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times


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## nitesh

ok guys more good news here:

The Hindu Business Line : India developing new-gen radars

India developing new-gen radars

BANGALORE: India is developing new generation radars with multi-function capability that can be integrated with any weapon system, a Defence Research and Development Organisation official said on Tuesday.

*Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a DRDO lab, has initiated development of medium power radar and a 150 km low level transportable radar with such capabilities, including surveillance, interceptive guidance, raid assessment, target ac quisition, close tracking and potential ones like fire control,* LRDE Director S Varadarajan said.

For example, Rajendra radar that LRDE developed is tied-up or &#8220;totally married'' with surface-to-air-missile Akash but the new radars being developed with hardware, configuration and power level that are highly programmable.

&#8220;Our ultimate mission is to extend it for multiple missions and multiple functions'', Varadarajan told reporters here. *&#8220;The radars that we are making will be a little-more broadbased. It can be integrated with any weapon system''.*

&#8220;Once these radars are put into the inventory of users, depending on the software configuration, they can be made to work in different environment'', he said. LRDE is also developing a *synthetic aperture radar which would be capable of generating images of targets.*

*&#8220;SAR will be capable of measuring the target up to a metre of accuracy''. Varadarajan also said LRDE has initiated development of active electronics scanning array radar for airborne applications. These radars are intended to be integrated with Tejas Li ght Combat Aircraft-Mark II in 2012-13.
*
&#8220;An active electronics scanning array radar in a fighter aircraft is one of the key elements to managing weapon systems, giving enhanced surveillance and fire power'', he said. &#8211; PTI


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## nitesh

http://www.ada.gov.in/others/Curren...-Nov-08_Tejas-LCA_/_14-Nov-08_tejas-lca_.html

LCA-Tejas has completed 948 Test Flights successfully. (14-Nov-08).

* LCA has completed 948 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-288,PV1-179,PV2-105,PV3-101,LSP1-27,LSP2-15).
* 179th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 13th Nov 08.
* 101st Night flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 13th Nov 08.


The last line seems to be not correct as the night flights started recently only


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## nitesh

LCA-Tejas has completed 950 Test Flights successfully. (15-Nov-08).


LCA has completed 950 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-289,PV1-179,PV2-105,PV3-102,LSP1-27,LSP2-15). 
289th flight of Tejas TD2 occurred on 14th Nov 08. 
102nd flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 14th Nov 08. 

(15-Nov-08)Tejas-LCA


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## indopak

lca trainer


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## Nihat

LCA-Tejas has completed 954 Test Flights successfully. (20-Nov-08).

* LCA has completed 954 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-290,PV1-180,PV2-105,PV3-104,LSP1-27,LSP2-15).
* 290th flight of Tejas TD2 occurred on 19th Nov 08.
* 180th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 19th Nov 08.


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## nitesh

46 more flights remaining for IOC then?


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## Nihat

Isin't it a 1000 flying *Hours* for IOC rather than 1000 flights , I'm still confused regarding it .

Anyhow , there is now a test flight almost every alternate day /


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## nitesh

Actually it needs to validate 3000 parameters to be validated for IOC how they achieve this with combination of flights vs hours needs to be seen. But yes lot of flights going on.


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## Nihat

the 300 parameters should include weapons integration and testing too , while no concrete deadline was give . I'm hoping that by July 2009 LCA should have the IOC and pave the way for serial production. At least for the first two south based squadrons.


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## nitesh

weapons integration testing should start with coming of LSP 3 because this is going to have the radar (now here also a confusion whether it is MMR (based on elta 2032) or a radar based on 2052). It is supposed to start flying from end of this year or from begining of next year


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## Nihat

Elta 2052 is supposed to be the radar , at least thats the latest from what I can infer. LSP-3 was supposed to be up and flying by late 2008 , considering that we are already in mid November , I hope it's not delayed as it is the closest to the one which will get IOC.


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## shchinese

it seems L-15 far better than your LCA

L-15 Advanced Jet Trainer - SinoDefence.com


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## Nihat

shchinese said:


> it seems L-15 far better than your LCA
> 
> L-15 Advanced Jet Trainer - SinoDefence.com



It has no reference to LCA or mention in the article , please post in relevant thread or start a separate one , don't dilute this one


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## shchinese

Nihat said:


> It has no reference to LCA or mention in the article , please post in relevant thread or start a separate one , don't dilute this one



No, they are all light combat aircraft, both designed after 2000, the L-15 has better performance from every aspect. 

tell me why they are irrelevant? because LCA is still not in active service?


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## Nihat

shchinese said:


> No, they are all light combat aircraft, both designed after 2000, the L-15 has better performance from every aspect.
> 
> tell me why they are irrelevant? because LCA is still not in active service?



this is an LCA thread , not L-15 one - if you wish to compare then have another thread like the JF-17 V/s LCA one , you can find it in archives.


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## shchinese

Nihat said:


> this is an LCA thread , not L-15 one - if you wish to compare then have another thread like the JF-17 V/s LCA one , you can find it in archives.



there is no one really comparing the aircrafts itself, why I should compare L-15 with LCA? I don't compare J-10 with LCA, for the same reason, I don't really compare L-15 with LCA. 

what I am saying here is as a failed project, just like arjun, why the LCA is still running and damaging your international reputation burning your tax payer's money. that is just open question.

for such a light aircraft, the unit cost is 21 million USD while the F-16C/D is only about 18 million USD. do you really believe LCA is better than F-16C/D? I don't. 

*25 years* of R&D, it is time to face the reality and say "we failed". same for the arjun project.


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## Nihat

shchinese said:


> there is no one really comparing the aircrafts itself, why I should compare L-15 with LCA? I don't compare J-10 with LCA, for the same reason, I don't really compare L-15 with LCA.
> 
> what I am saying here is as a failed project, just like arjun, why the LCA is still running and damaging your international reputation burning your tax payer's money. that is just open question.



Time will tell how capable or incapable the LCA is , no one really has any inside info on LCA to say if it's a success or failure . Besides , that judgment can only be made once it's in service.

Arjun was an obsolete product when it came out but hopefully the makes have learnt a lot from it.


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## shchinese

Nihat said:


> Time will tell how capable or incapable the LCA is , no one really has any inside info on LCA to say if it's a success or failure . Besides , that judgment can only be made once it's in service.
> 
> Arjun was an obsolete product when it came out but hopefully the makes have learnt a lot from it.



German/American/Jew/Korean/Chinese didn't waste 2-3 decades on a MBT project then claim "we learnt something".


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## Nihat

shchinese said:


> German/American/Jew/Korean/Chinese didn't waste 2-3 decades on a MBT project then claim "we learnt something".



That is amazing - so without learning anything you have come this far .


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## nitesh

HUD (Head Up Display) for LCA

http://www.csio.res.in/CSIO-AR07-08...B5B7E84=0&bcsi_scan_filename=CSIO-AR07-08.pdf


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## shchinese

Nihat said:


> That is amazing - so without learning anything you have come this far .



project failure is NOT the only source for learning technologies. 

keep my words in your mind.


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## smeaglegolum

shchinese said:


> project failure is NOT the only source for learning technologies.
> 
> keep my words in your mind.



I know what you mean. Ripping off/Copying/Palgiarising technology from other countries is another way to learn, where your country seems to be doing the best instead of innovating and being creative.

Thanks, but no thanks.


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## Skywalker

smeaglegolum said:


> I know what you mean. Ripping off/Copying/Palgiarising technology from other countries is another way to learn, where your country seems to be doing the best instead of innovating and being creative.
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.



If you call LCA as an innovation and creativity then keep it up..


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## smeaglegolum

Skywalker said:


> If you call LCA as an innovation and creativity then keep it up..



Innovation and being creative might take time, but in the long run it will be the major winner.

While if you keep copying things, you have to keep on doing the same thing to be competitive.

A good anology will be, a student working hard for his exams to pass and the other student copying in the exam to pass. Now, in the future, who will be more knowledgeable and competitive. Please think over it.


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## Nihat

Oh come on Sir , Reverse Engineering is also an art - you might have heard in India a saying "Nakal ke liye bhi Akal Chahiye" - Lets give the Chinese their due.

As far as LCA is concerned , one thing should be clear that it is not made to Compete with Chinese or Pak fighter (which are mostly the same).

The truly obsolete and outdated Mig 21 , Mig 23 and Mig 27 have to be replaced with it and last I checked the LCA is still much better than those crafts in all aspects (even non-combat ones).


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## nitesh

Aeronautical Development Agency

LCA-Tejas has completed 956 Test Flights successfully. (25-Nov-08).

* LCA has completed 956 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-291,PV1-181,PV2-105,PV3-104,LSP1-27,LSP2-15).
* 181st flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 24th Nov 08.


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## shchinese

smeaglegolum said:


> I know what you mean. Ripping off/Copying/Palgiarising technology from other countries is another way to learn, where your country seems to be doing the best instead of innovating and being creative.



creative? 

then how about reading some respectful 3rd party reports? for example the following WIPO report? India can be safely removed from the world patent activity and we will still have the same world patent filing. 

keep my words in your mind dude, there is a single Chinese company named Huawei files more patent than your entire nation.


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## Nihat

> Tejas naval variant to take to the skies in 2009
> 
> Ravi Sharma
> 
> The vexing issue of sourcing material for landing gear resolved; Indian companies come to the rescue
> 
> The landing gear is being manufactured at HAL, Nasik
> 
> The Navy wants an engine of much higher thrust
> 
> BANGALORE: Having overcome the vexing issue of sourcing material for the landing gear of the indigenous naval variant of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has slated the inaugural flight for late 2009.
> 
> The procurement of the material for the landing gear of the naval variant, which is being designed to withstand G-forces of up to 4.5G, had hit a hurdle when the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the aircraft maker was unable to secure it from the global market. However with two Indian companies  Mishra Dhatu Nigam and Bharat Forge  delivering the required material, the landing gear is being designed and manufactured at the HAL, Nasik.
> Similar to PV-5
> 
> Officials at the ADA told The Hindu that the naval fighter aircraft  a twin-seater variant with the nomenclature NP1 (naval prototype one)  would look similar to PV-5 (prototype vehicle five) of the LCA being developed for the Indian Air Force (IAF). But the similarities are only external: the naval aircraft will structurally be equipped to cater for higher landing loads and the tail arrestor hook landing system. The naval aircraft will also be powered by a more powerful engine compared to the LCA currently flying or being built for the IAF.
> 
> The LCA naval variant, which is to be used by the Navy in an air defence role from its carriers, will jockey for space on the deck with the MiG-29Ks that India is buying from Russia. It will be a replacement for the British-made Sea Harrier jump jets currently used by the Navy. The Navy has already placed intent to procure 40 aircraft.
> Challenging environment
> 
> Explaining the need for a more powerful engine, officials said the environment in which the naval variant would operate was much more challenging. With only 200 metres of deck length available for a take-off, and even more crucially during landing, when the aircraft has to decelerate from speeds of 250 km per hour to zero in just 90 metres, the Navy wants an engine of much higher thrust than the LCAs present power plant  the General Electrics GE F404. Two engines  the GE F414 and the European consortium Eurojets EJ 200  are being evaluated by the ADA, the IAF and the Navy, as a more powerful option for both, future versions of the land-based LCA and the naval variant.
> 
> Another key challenge for the naval variants design is the fact that while the land-based LCAs are designed for a vertical rate of descent of 3 metres per second, the naval variant will be designed for a descent of 7.5 metres a second.



............

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## shchinese

WTF. the LCA propaganda is going on a daily basis. 

and we are having this Nihat member here sharing us with his pure nationalism. 

grow up mate, WIPO report clearly shows you don't have any world standard R&D in India and thus building modern aircraft can only be a day dream. *here I am not attacking you or your nation, I am pointing out a simple fact: when you couldn't produce any international patent, how could you ever build modern aircraft?*

source here, please read and stop this daily LCA brainwashing/propaganda, we free people rely on respectful information sources like UN WIPO don't care about your brainwashing articles.

Unprecedented Number of International Patent Filings in 2007

In case if you are not capable of reading the whole report, here is the interesting bit from that report:



> International Applications by Residence of First Applicant All Countries of Origin
> 
> Country 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 (estimate)
> IN India 764 724 679 831 686
> CN China 1'295 1'706 2'503 3'951 5'456

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## newlife

I think this thread is for LCA only......



> when you couldn't produce any international patent, how could you ever build modern aircraft?



So u mean higher the no. of patents of a country better will be the air craft.....

Silly


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## shchinese

newlife said:


> I think this thread is for LCA only......
> So u mean higher the no. of patents of a country better will be the air craft.....
> Silly



the patent filing reflects the overall R&D standard and spending. these are all simple facts that any 12 years old kid know in my country. building/designing modern aircrafts are *NOT* easy for anyone as it just involves too many different aspects. when the *overall* R&D is at some very limited capacity, how it could be possible to build high end aircraft? 

LCA is a failure because after 25 years of R&D, it is still being "tested", this is very shameful for the people *who refuse to acknowledge this fact*. You can check the air force history book of my country, so many projects have already failed, but they were just declared as failed, no string attached. We don't have any project running for 25 years and still being "tested".

Now let's *assume* that you guys can successfully conclude this project with all current major difficulties fixed/solved/worked around in 1-2 years, so what? even in this best case (which will NEVER happen in real life), you get a *light* combat aircraft which is far worse than JF-17 (about one generation gap in almost all aspects). 

Now for the patent discussion again, I can honestly tell you - we had this discussion in China about 20-30 years ago when we got 100% shocked that a single Japanese/US company can produce more patents than we entire nation. However, a bold *however*, no one talk in the manner that you just showed, we acknowledged the backwards (which is still the current case when compared with Japan/US) and we set young generation to get problem solved. No one trolling like what you just did.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Chanakya.10

shchinese said:


> the patent filing reflects the overall R&D standard and spending. these are all simple facts that any 12 years old kid know in my country. building/designing modern aircrafts are *NOT* easy for anyone as it just involves too many different aspects. when the *overall* R&D is at some very limited capacity, how it could be possible to build high end aircraft?
> 
> LCA is a failure because after 25 years of R&D, it is still being "tested", this is very shameful for the people *who refuse to acknowledge this fact*. You can check the air force history book of my country, so many projects have already failed, but they were just declared as failed, no string attached. We don't have any project running for 25 years and still being "tested".
> 
> Now let's *assume* that you guys can successfully conclude this project with all current major difficulties fixed/solved/worked around in 1-2 years, so what? even in this best case (which will NEVER happen in real life), you get a *light* combat aircraft which is far worse than JF-17 (about one generation gap in almost all aspects).
> 
> Now for the patent discussion again, I can honestly tell you - we had this discussion in China about 20-30 years ago when we got 100% shocked that a single Japanese/US company can produce more patents than we entire nation. However, a bold *however*, no one talk in the manner that you just showed, we acknowledged the backwards (which is still the current case when compared with Japan/US) and we set young generation to get problem solved. No one trolling like what you just did.





ya LCA is a failed project and we Indians are fool to go ahead with that.
Only Chinese are intellect enough to learn from failures and build extraordinary projects.

And since an Indian have declared LCA AS A FAILURE, YOUR PURPOSE IS OVER, AND NO need too come to this thread again, coz if u do post again, it will obvoiusly show that u r not sure about urself.

Now lets see how much confident are you of your claim.....


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## newlife

LCA has taken longer time to complete...(mainly because it was the first time India was developing 4th gen. aircraft wit zero previous experience.)

More over there were US sanctions which did not allowed India to use foreign technical help....
I know LCA will work as the foundation in future for better aircraft development.[like MCA etc]...

JF-17 may b better in some aspects.
It was jointly developed by pak. & china..
China had no sanctions while it had previous know-how.....


Lca was developed by India alone..





Country 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 (estimate)
IN India 764 724 679 831 686
CN China 1'295 1'706 2'503 3'951 5'456 
PK Pakistan 2 0 0 3 4

Now for the patent discussion again... 

According to WIPO:
The largest number of applications received came from the Republic of Korea (7,061) and China (5,456) followed by India (686), South Africa (390), Brazil (384), Mexico (173), Malaysia (103), Egypt (41), Saudi Arabia (35)...

I know there is a large diff. bet. them but We will catch soon...

Unlike china our economy is service based... So there will b the diff. in no. of patents.


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## newlife

> ya LCA is a failed project and we Indians are fool to go ahead with that.
> Only Chinese are intellect enough to learn from failures and build extraordinary projects.
> 
> And since an Indian have declared LCA AS A FAILURE, YOUR PURPOSE IS OVER, AND NO need too come to this thread again, coz if u do post again, it will obvoiusly show that u r not sure about urself.
> 
> Now lets see how much confident are you of your claim.....















































I felt pa!n a thousand times, but I never fear it.


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## Chanakya.10

newlife said:


> I felt pa!n a thousand times, but I never fear it.



Don't worry bro, That's just _Chanakya-neeti_ for not letting him come and troll here again.......

*

Let him be happy with whatever in other's efforts he see.....
LCA will not be bad if he thinks it will be.....
Things dont change if he dont agree.......
So dont get bothered and let your soul be free....*

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## shchinese

Chanakya.10 said:


> ya LCA is a failed project and we Indians are fool to go ahead with that.
> Only Chinese are intellect enough to learn from failures and build extraordinary projects.



No, you got millions of smart people. You guys just over confident about what you are doing. As I have already clearly said in my post - there are numerous aircraft project that has already failed. For example, we had failed J9, J11 project before 1980s, they are called failure and we all acknowledge such failures. 

that is all. 



Chanakya.10 said:


> And since an Indian have declared LCA AS A FAILURE, YOUR PURPOSE IS OVER, AND NO need too come to this thread again, coz if u do post again, it will obvoiusly show that u r not sure about urself.
> 
> Now lets see how much confident are you of your claim.....



I don't understand what are you talking about. 

In this thread we are talking a project which has been there for 25+ years and still in testing phase. It is like a huge joke. Source here:

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## shchinese

newlife said:


> I know there is a large diff. bet. them but We will catch soon...
> 
> Unlike china our economy is service based... So there will b the diff. in no. of patents.



dude, I have been hearing such claims a lot of times in the past several years and I have to admit the effectives of the "service based" economy. 

when I was talking to some Indians about the lack of infrastructures in India, I was told that "our economy is service based", so no needs to have so many roads/ports.

when I was talking to some Indians about the lack of educational investment in India, I was told "our economy is service based".


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## Chanakya.10

shchinese said:


> No, you got millions of smart people. You guys just over confident about what you are doing. As I have already clearly said in my post - there are numerous aircraft project that has already failed. For example, we had failed J9, J11 project before 1980s, they are called failure and we all acknowledge such failures.
> 
> that is all.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what are you talking about.
> 
> In this thread we are talking a project which has been there for 25+ years and still in testing phase.* It is like a huge joke.* Source here:
> 
> HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Just what makes u so concerned about it?

Looking for happiness in others efforts??


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## Munir

I think indeed LCA is 100&#37; Indian... Why else would be a 100% faillure.

For everything else Mastercard.


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## zeus

Munir said:


> I think indeed LCA is 100% Indian... Why else would be a 100% faillure.
> 
> For everything else Mastercard.



Lets see who will have the last laugh

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## shchinese

zeus said:


> Lets see who will have the last laugh



we have been laughing for decades

arjun/LCA


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## Munir

zeus said:


> Lets see who will have the last laugh



Let us hope you are able to finish something before it is antique and be put in the heritage Museum that your nation so desperatel wants...

I am not laughing. I am damn serious and unfortunately I do have lots of credits in predicting. If you want to keep posting stupid oneliners without facts then you are history anytime soon.


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## nitesh

Current News

LCA-Tejas has completed 958 Test Flights successfully. (30-Nov-08).

* LCA has completed 958 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-181,PV2-105,PV3-104,LSP1-28,LSP2-15).
* 292nd flight of Tejas TD2 occurred on 29th Nov 08.
* 28th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 29th Nov 08.
(30-Nov-08)Tejas-LCA

LCA-Tejas has completed 960 Test Flights successfully. (01-Dec-08).

* LCA has completed 960 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-104,LSP1-29,LSP2-15).
* 182nd flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 30th Nov 08.
* 29th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 30th Nov 08.

(01-Dec-08)Tejas-LCA

LCA-Tejas has completed 961 Test Flights successfully. (02-Dec-08).

* LCA has completed 961 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-104,LSP1-29,LSP2-16).
* 16th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 01st Dec 08.


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## donrahul

how many hours of test flight? Any ideas?


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## nitesh

donrahul said:


> how many hours of test flight? Any ideas?



Nope there is no specific info available on this but you can take a typical test flight time of 25-30 min. But some sorties were of more then 1.5-2 hour. So we can say some thing like 600 hour. (That's my view)


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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : IAF insists on changes to Tejas

IAF insists on changes to Tejas

Ravi Sharma

It does not meet minimum air staff requirements

IAF will consider acquiring 125 more Tejas&#8217; when Mk2 variant is developed

Mk2 will take a few years because a new powerful engine has to be chosen

BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration.

In 2005, the IAF placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 16 fighters and four trainers. The then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said a decision on an additional 20 aircraft was under consideration. But that plan has come a cropper since the overweight, under-powered Tejas does not meet the IAF&#8217;s minimum air staff requirements (ASR).

The IAF decision though is not the end of the road for the Rs. 6,000-crore LCA programme. *It will consider acquiring 125 more Tejas when an improved &#8212; Mark 2 (Mk2) &#8212; variant is developed.* As indicated by an IAF committee in 2004, any further order will be subject to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designer and developer of the LCA programme, showing &#8220;firm visibility that the aircraft will meet the ASR.&#8221;

Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and &#8220;dropping and replacing&#8221; certain parts to take care of obsolescence.

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49).

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken. *All trainer aircraft even after Tejas Mk2 rolls out will continue to have the present GE F404 engines.*

*Cold weather trials*

On the LCA programme, the ADA is getting ready for &#8216;cold weather trials.&#8217; They were to have been conducted in 2007 but were not because of questions about the aircraft&#8217;s reliability.

*Two or three aircraft are scheduled to leave for Leh on December 8.* Cold weather trials include landing the Tejas at Leh, one of the most challenging airfields in the world, and &#8216;cold soak&#8217; when temperatures are around minus 15 degrees C to see if the systems on board function normally.

*Slow pace*

The IAF is also worried about the slow pace and quality of work at HAL. More so, because it will not be able to deliver by 2013, as scheduled, the 20 aircraft for which orders have been placed. Defence Minister A.K. Antony recently said the Tejas would enter squadron service by 2011, which date, according to officials, is highly optimistic as hardly 10 or 12 test sorties are now being undertaken. The IAF expects the final operational clearance for the Tejas only after 2012.


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## Nihat

I really don't expect much from the LCA right now - It's an R and D start and I'll keep it at that for the current time frame.

All I would want is that within the next 2 years i.e Dec 2010 , that promised one squadron of 20 fighters which will be fully armed and combat ready will be put in place in the south , at least it will provide a base line for the DRDO to work with.

Use the F 404 engine and Elta 2052 MMR and for gods sake get it up in the air and in active combat service , if only one squadron.

In the mean while - Push had for the MRCA , if NDA comes to power I'm certain that they will be more pro active in matters of defense.


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## nitesh

I see this as a good news my comprehension tells something like this:

"The IAF is ordering more of the newer versions and reduced the number of older versions that they originally planned to order".


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## Munir

Mufassa Mufassa Mufassa


BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration. 

In 2005, the IAF placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 16 fighters and four trainers. The then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said a decision on an additional 20 aircraft was under consideration. But that plan has come a cropper since the overweight, under-powered Tejas does not meet the IAF&#8217;s minimum air staff requirements (ASR). 

The IAF decision though is not the end of the road for the Rs. 6,000-crore LCA programme. It will consider acquiring 125 more Tejas when an improved &#8212; Mark 2 (Mk2) &#8212; variant is developed. As indicated by an IAF committee in 2004, any further order will be subject to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designer and developer of the LCA programme, showing &#8220;firm visibility that the aircraft will meet the ASR.&#8221;

Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and &#8220;dropping and replacing&#8221; certain parts to take care of obsolescence. 

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49). 

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken. All trainer aircraft even after Tejas Mk2 rolls out will continue to have the present GE F404 engines.

Cold weather trials 


On the LCA programme, the ADA is getting ready for &#8216;cold weather trials.&#8217; They were to have been conducted in 2007 but were not because of questions about the aircraft&#8217;s reliability. 

Two or three aircraft are scheduled to leave for Leh on December 8. Cold weather trials include landing the Tejas at Leh, one of the most challenging airfields in the world, and &#8216;cold soak&#8217; when temperatures are around minus 15 degrees C to see if the systems on board function normally.

Slow pace 


The IAF is also worried about the slow pace and quality of work at HAL. More so, because it will not be able to deliver by 2013, as scheduled, the 20 aircraft for which orders have been placed. Defence Minister A.K. Antony recently said the Tejas would enter squadron service by 2011, which date, according to officials, is highly optimistic as hardly 10 or 12 test sorties are now being undertaken. The IAF expects the final operational clearance for the Tejas only after 2012.


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## Nihat

already posted above , Munir Sir


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## nitesh

Guys first of all people need to understand how the LCA program started, posting excerpts of interview from post no. 603



> One keeps hearing conflicting stories on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). What is the update on the project?
> 
> To understand the LCA, it is necessary to go to the beginning. *People say that the project started in 1983.* The truth is that the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) itself was not available in 1983. All that had happened was that the country had conceptually decided on a need for the LCA and a sanction of Rs 560 crore was made. It took about five to six years to arrive at a definition of what the LCA should be. The ASR was given in 1985 and by 1988 we understood what the air force was looking for. After this, we started the project definition studies and the summary of these studies stated that seven prototypes should be made as is normally done all over the world. But in 1990-91, the government felt that so much of a risk could not be taken and the requirement of seven prototypes was split into two phases: two technology demonstrators (TD) followed by five prototypes. In the TD stage we were told that no sensor or weaponisation was required; only certain technologies were to be demonstrated. *In April 1993, an amount of Rs 2,188 crore was allocated only for the TD, implying that before this, funds were not available to launch the full scale programme.* The technologies needed to be demonstrated were composite-based wing structure, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, all digital avionics and computer-based control of electro-mechanical systems.
> 
> In January 2001, the TD1 was flown and the government saw the promise in the programme. In November 2001, the government gave the go-ahead to start work on the proto-vehicles (PV), which are basically meant for sensors and weapons&#8217; integration. Till this time, the government did not fund us to make a fighting machine or PVs for which funds to the tune of Rs 3301 crore were released then. The sanction fund of Rs 3,301 crore is not only for the proto-vehicles but for the limited serial production (LSP) of eight aircraft, including the infrastructure needed for them to establish a production line of eight aircraft per annum. This was the turning point for the programme. In June 2002, we flew the TD2 and in November 2003, we flew PV1.
> 
> There was a transformation at this stage as we realised that an entire generation of electronics had changed by 2001. Fortunately, by 1998-99, we decided to make the entire avionics of the aircraft with an open system of architecture. Hence, the PV2 that flew in December 2005 was with an open system of architecture. The advantage is that it allows us to tackle obsolescence of electronic hardware. In this process, we were able to make nearly 80 per cent of avionics indigenously. Today, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is very happy with us on this issue because we have the most current concept of avionics in the aircraft. In December 2006 we flew PV3, and in April 2007 the LSP1 version. The LSP2 was flown recently in June 2008. Today, we have seven aircraft in flying condition: TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1 and LSP2. Our first trainer aircraft is round the corner, probably in another two months. We are now very close to programme completion. We are looking for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2010 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2012. In March 2006, the IAF placed the order for 20 aircraft in IOC configuration.
> 
> Today, in terms of the aircraft, we look at two major aspects. The first is the flight envelope expansion, implying the altitude and speed of the aircraft as well as acceleration and manoeuvres. In this respect, we have already validated all the parameters except the angle of attack. We are presently, at 20 when the required is 22. The second aspect is sensors and weapons integration. We have integrated the day and night attack sensor system, what is called the Litening Pod and the helmet-mounted display system (HMDS) for slewing the radar and litening pod towards the target. What is now pending is radar integration and release of weapons. We did the sea trials in June 2007 at Arakonam. In November 2007, we fired a close combat missile (CCM) from the aircraft in Goa and recently (May 28-June 4) we completed the hot weather trials in Nagpur.



any way the journalist has given a very nice twist here


> In 2005, the IAF placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 16 fighters and four trainers. The then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said a decision on an additional 20 aircraft was under consideration. But that plan has come a cropper since the overweight, under-powered Tejas does not meet the IAF&#8217;s minimum air staff requirements (ASR).


As from the above excerpts it is already know that the current engine does not fulfill the ASR. Nothing new said. The plan for ordering more 20 is under process this is also known if you read the complete interview in post 603. The plan for new engine is also under process and mentioned in the interview. And this guys just says that the plan is not there without even quoting any body? From when he became an authority but nevertheless it's an encouraging development that now the number will stand for 125+ 20 or may be 40.


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## nitesh

Cold weather trials it seems

ADA WebSite - Home
LCA-Tejas has completed 968 Test Flights successfully. (09-Dec-08).

* LCA has completed 968 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-107,LSP1-29,LSP2-20).
* 107th Ferri flight,Nagpur of Tejas PV3 occurred on 08th Dec 08.
* 20th Ferri flight, Nagpur of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 08th Dec 08.


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## shchinese

nitesh said:


> Cold weather trials it seems
> 
> ADA WebSite - Home
> LCA-Tejas has completed 968 Test Flights successfully. (09-Dec-08).
> 
> * LCA has completed 968 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-107,LSP1-29,LSP2-20).
> * 107th Ferri flight,Nagpur of Tejas PV3 occurred on 08th Dec 08.
> * 20th Ferri flight, Nagpur of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 08th Dec 08.



so? maybe you need another 25 years to finish the R&D of LCA?


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## nitesh

^^

What? I didn't got your point


----------



## shchinese

nitesh said:


> ^^
> 
> What? I didn't got your point



please stop posting such brainwashing stats/articles.

LCA is already *dead*!


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## daredevil

shchinese said:


> please stop posting such brainwashing stats/articles.
> 
> LCA is already *dead*!



Like your J10, J11 duds.


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## shchinese

daredevil said:


> Like your J10, J11 duds.



J-10/J-11 is in active service. 100+ J-10 are in *active service* since 2002/2003, the latest development of J-11 called J-11B even have the engine designed in China and it is in *active service*.

if you have too much free time, why not just spend more on posting us some exicting development stories about your Arjun tanks?!?


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## daredevil

shchinese said:


> J-10/J-11 is in active service. 100+ J-10 are in *active service* since 2002/2003, the latest development of J-11 called J-11B even have the engine designed in China and it is in *active service*.
> 
> if you have too much free time, why not just spend more on posting us some exicting development stories about your Arjun tanks?!?



What China engine are you talking about?. The reverse engineered WS3.


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## shchinese

daredevil said:


> What China engine are you talking about?. The reverse engineered WS3.



reverse engineered engine? s.h.i.t me to tears. 

please check the national IQ article on wikipedia and see the difference of our average IQ. we are 105, you are < 90.


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## daredevil

shchinese said:


> reverse engineered engine? s.h.i.t me to tears.
> 
> please check the national IQ article on wikipedia and see the difference of our average IQ. we are 105, you are < 90.



Just check the same wikipedia of how wrong the study was done, which was subjectively manipulated and consists of data inaccuracies. So


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## nitesh

shchinese said:


> please stop posting such brainwashing stats/articles.
> 
> LCA is already *dead*!



What I posted is status update about the testing.

Is is something wrong there?


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## Keysersoze

Final warning schinese stop hijacking threads. If you want to make a comparison thread then do so. However this thread is about the LCA only


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## nitesh

wonderful achievement:



> t said the technology on which it worked to develop the radar absorbing nano-crystals was their brainchild and after NASA, India was only one to have successfully gained the technology.



So LCA gets some more goodies . Might be come handy especially with MKI which has a big RCS


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## nitesh

PIB Press Release

*The Minister said Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase 1 for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was sanctioned in 1993 only Technology Development. Later in November 2001, FSED Phase 2 was sanctioned for manufacturing of additional prototypes and eight Limited Series Production Aircrafts.* Decision was taken to change to Open System Architecture for Avionics and Change over to R73 E missile (from R60) to make the aircraft more advanced and contemporary. There are no other changes in the design. The project is progressing well and has completed more than 933 test flights successfully with seven aircrafts under flight test phase. Indian Air Force has already placed a commercial order on HAL for procuring 20 LCA aircrafts.

Shri Antony denied knowledge whether a lobby in the Army is in favour of the purchase for entire equipment for army from foreign countries.

PK/RAJ


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## nitesh

I think with this phase before the new year 1000 flights will be over

LCA-Tejas has completed 974 Test Flights successfully. (14-Dec-08).

LCA has completed 974 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-111,LSP1-29,LSP2-22).
111th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 13th Dec 08.

LCA-Tejas has completed 976 Test Flights successfully. (15-Dec-08)

LCA has completed 976 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-111,LSP1-29,LSP2-24).
23rd & 24th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 14th Dec 08

LCA-Tejas has completed 978 Test Flights successfully. (16-Dec-08).

LCA has completed 978 Test Flights successfully

(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-112,LSP1-29,LSP2-25).
112th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 15th Dec 08.
25th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 15th Dec 08.
Flight Test News


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## nitesh

LiveFist: LCA Tejas lands in Leh

LCA Tejas lands in Leh

DRDO Press Release: Tejas programme reached a major milestone when the prototype vehicle PV-3 landed at Leh on 13 Dec 08 at 1326 hrs. The event is significant on many counts. Leh airfield in Ladakh region situated at an altitude of 10,600 ft is one of the highest airfields in the world. The prevailing temperature ranges from plus 5 to minus 20 deg Celsius.

The objective of the current phase of flight trials at Leh is to expose the onboard systems to the extreme low temperatures while making an assessment of the aircraft performance in the rarified atmospheric conditions. *Two Tejas prototypes PV-3 and LSP-2 are involved in this important environmental test. LSP-2 powered by the latest IN20 engine with FADEC is in the Standard of Preparation (SOP) that will be cleared for induction in to Service.*

As per reports received from the trial location, the current phase of flight trial is progressing well with aircraft and systems performing well as expected. *The aircrafts were soaked overnight in cold weather, with temperature around Minus 20 deg and powered up next day for operation. The operation of the aircraft were satisfactory. Real time telemetry link between Pathankot, the base camp and NFTC of Bangalore is also made operational during the trial.*

The success of the trial is the result of team effort of professionals from different organizations involved in the programme such as ADA, HAL, CEMILAC, DG-AQA, ADE, NAL and IAF. The flight trials are being conducted by the Test Pilots and Flight Test Engineers of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) under the direction of Air Cmde Rohit Varma Project Director (Flight Test). Senior officers from ADA, HAL and ADE; Mr PS Subramanyam, Director, ADA; Mr Ashok Naik, Managing Director (BC), HAL and Mr PS Krishnan, Director, ADE were present at Leh on this historic occasion.


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## Nihat

Nitesh , do you have any idea of how many broad parameters have been tested and how many remain beofre the IOC . Also there were supposed to be 8 LSP Tejas but we've seen only 2 so far with No. 3 being work in progress. All these 8 LSP's a pre-requisite for IOC or FOC.


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## nitesh

If you refer to the august interview of LCA program director he mentioned that a total of 3000 test parameters needs to be verified but not mentioned how many for IOC and how many for FOC. A simple thing can be something like for IOC they are happy with 6G but FOC requires to meet the ASR of 9G (There were some reports that it is 8G also not sure which to believe). I think it was 5 PV start from PV 1 to PV 5 and 3 LSP start from LSP 1 to LSP 3. Only PV 5 and LSP 3 have to take to the skies. Then 20 are ordered already and 20 more supposed tog et ordered. Apart from that 2 vehicles naval LCA are also approved but no time line has been given when they will roll out. there was interview of GTRE director that LCA will also sport kaveri (which version not told) by 2009. Lot of things are going on.


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## Kharian_Beast

Cranked delta wing was a bad idea chaps, it's been done to death in decades of yore and deemed to be obsolete. I think you guys should focus on MMRCA instead, far more interesting geo-politically even.


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## nitesh

^^

Can you explain in English what are you saying please. I am sorry i can't co relate the things what you are saying.


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## nitesh

what are you smoking here?


> Lets see about Chandrayaan, its a join operation with russia again.


chandrayaan 1 was a joint project? Oh come on give me a break don't put such insane remarks


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## nitesh

Tejas PV-3 at Leh

Tejas programme reached a major milestone when the prototype vehicle PV-3 landed at Leh on 13 Dec 08 at 1326 hrs. The event is significant on many counts. Leh airfield in Ladakh region situated at an altitude of 10,600 ft is one of the highest airfields in the world. The prevailing temperature ranges from plus 5 to minus 20 deg Celsius.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## IceCold

rproopesh said:


> Do you guys know pakistan has a technology partner ship with India on bio-diesel. Yes both teams are working for a common goal!



Do you have anything to support your claim, if yes let it be there for all of us to read otherwise dont derail the thread with unnecessary nonsense.


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## nitesh

roopesh the point is on which project they have worked now you will say that even US the europeans and japanese guys have worked for ISRO fopr chandrayaan because they have came with there instruments to ISRO. Oh come on give me a break.

PS: Please don't derail the threads with off topic talks put them in relevant threads.


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## ejaz007

*Tejas (LCA) Fighter Jet High-Altitude Trials at Leh Successful: DRDO*
Dated 17/12/2008

India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has achieved a major milestone when its prototype landed at Leh air base in the high-altitude Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir. "Tejas (LCA) programme reached a major milestone when the prototype vehicle PV-3 landed at Leh on December 13 this year at 1326 hours," Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) officials said here on Tuesday.

The event is seen as significant on many counts as Leh airfield is situated at an altitude of 10,600 feet and is one of the highest airfields in the world with a temperature variation ranging from plus 5 degrees Celsius to minus 20 degrees Celsius. The objective of the current phase of flight trials at Leh was to expose the on-board systems to the extreme low temperatures while making an assessment of the aircraft performance in the rarefied atmospheric conditions, DRDO officials said.

Two Tejas prototypes PV-3 and LSP-2 were involved in this important environmental test. The LSP-2 prototype powered by the latest IN20 engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) is in the Standard of Preparation (SOP) that would be cleared for induction into the IAF service soon. As per reports received from the trial location, the current phase of flight trial was progressing well with aircraft and systems performing well, as expected, officials said.

The aircraft were soaked overnight in cold weather, with temperature around minus 20 degrees Celsius and powered up next day for operation, officials said.

Tejas (LCA) Fighter Jet High-Altitude Trials at Leh Successful: DRDO | India Defence


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## zavis2003

why INDIA is goingto test LCA in high altitudes this scrape jet is of no use as when it will come into productions crafts of same gen will be ground
VERY FUNNY INDIANS


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## zavis2003

i think INDIANs should request JF17 as it will perform better at high altitudes


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## nitesh

^^ care to explain how?


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## m15t3r7

Indians are so good at underestimating Pakistan


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## nitesh

The Hindu News Update Service


Describing the Light Combat Aircraft as the aircraft of future, Selvamurthy said its successful test trial was held just two days ago in the hills of Leh in sub zero temperatures.

He said DRDO has fixed a target of giving 20 such aircrafts to the Indian Air Force by 2010 and 10 more by 2012.

"This aircraft would replace MIG-21 in the coming days," he added.


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## nitesh

excellent foot forward, thank you Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, now as the kaveri and LCA are de coupled it is sensible that to take time and put more emphasis on indigenous effort:


http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/...2008122655571000.htm&date=2008/12/26/&prd=th&

*IAF not keen on French offer for Kaveri engine*

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: Indian Air Force (IAF) is not keen on accepting an offer from the French company Snecma to join the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in co-developing the long-delayed Kaveri turbofan combat aircraft engine.

The Kaveri engine, which has been under development at the GTRE for two decades at a cost of almost Rs.2,000 crore, is specifically being built to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas.

A committee set up by the IAF has indicated to Air Headquarters that the Snecma offer will not meet the Air Force&#8217;s operational requirements, nor help India acquire the technological know-how to indigenously develop a combat engine.

Constituted in September under the chairmanship of Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, to look at the Snecma offer, the committee had as its members representatives from the designers of the Tejas - the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the manufacturers of the Tejas - the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, and IAF officers posted at ADA, the National Flight Test Centre and the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment.

*Not in India&#8217;s interest*

Highly placed sources told The Hindu that the committee felt that the Snecma offer was not in the IAF and India&#8217;s interest primarily because the French were offering a fully developed engine *accepting which would &#8220;compromise and even kill the efforts, however meagre&#8221;* that Indian defence laboratories had made towards developing the indigenous Kaveri engine.

The offer would also not help India get a co-designed, co-developed engine but rather an engine under a licence production arrangement, and at a great financial cost.

Explained a member of the committee: *&#8220;It would be better if GTRE and other laboratories working on the Kaveri brought the engine to its logical conclusion even if it took a few more years. At least we would have mastery over the core technology. This will be better than importing the French core, paying a lifelong royalty, but saying the Kaveri is our indigenous effort. Neither the French nor anybody else will give us the know-how on the core technology.&#8221;*

*No production*

The GTRE has been unable to come up with the engine&#8217;s core technology.


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## nitesh

Aeronautical Development Agency

LCA-Tejas has completed total 988 test flights successfully(TD1-233,TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-116,LSP1-29,LSP2-31)


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## nitesh

(01-Jan-09)Tejas-LCA

Current News

LCA-Tejas has completed 989 Test Flights successfully. (01-Jan-09).

* LCA has completed 989 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-292,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-116,LSP1-30,LSP2-31).
* 30th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 31st Dec 08.


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## nitesh

Aeronautical Development Agency
LCA-Tejas has completed total 992 test flights successfully(TD1-233,TD2-293,PV1-182,PV2-105,PV3-116,LSP1-30,LSP2-33)


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## nitesh

LCA to be pressed into service next year: Harinarayana

LCA to be pressed into service next year: Harinarayana

Thiruvananthapuram, Jan 10: The country's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be pressed into service next year, Kota Harinarayana, Fellow, National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Bangalore said here on Saturday.

"LCA produced at Bangalore had so far conducted 1000 successful test flights. IAF has already ordered 20 aircraft from the production centre in Bangalore," he said inaugurating a workshop on 'Systems approach in engineering design: national security and wealth generation' organised by the Systems Society of India, Thiruvananthapuram chapter.

Harinarayana, who was the project director of LCA in 1985, said the LCA project would lead to the indigenous production of all types of big fighter aircraft like MIG.

He said that there was need for an integrated systems approach in engineering. "As real talent was rare, we need to combine innovation, entrepreneurship, business, engineering and human values to be successful," he said.

Former VSSC director SC Gupta was honoured on the occasion. In the technical session that followed, BN Suresh, director, Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology, delivered a lecture on 'System engineering aspects for the development of large Systems with zero defects.'


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## Indicom

Hi All,here is a Tejas walkaround link,the build quality(paint,fitting,caliberation,finish)is truly world class,HAL"s build quality of Jaguar Darin II are also excellent!

HAL Tejas PV-3 Walkaround [KH2005] [www.bharat-rakshak.com]


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## LCA

May be many people no agree.

but it is a fair enough comparison.


----------



## Indicom

rpa1 said:


> dude
> 
> the jf-17 has a very old airframe design compared to the lca, its based on a j-8 upgrade.
> 
> the lca is made of over 50&#37; composite, the jf-17 is mostly metal,
> 
> also, the engine on the jf-17 isn't so great compared to the GE-404 and future lca engines (GE-414, or EJ-2000) according to one of the moderators "russian engines are inferior to western engines of the 100 mki's only 10 are flying due to the crappy russian engines" if thats true, than it'll be even worst for jf-17 since rd-33 isn't a modern engine
> 
> and has the jf-17 been ordered by china?
> 
> you all claim the jf-17 is a miracle plane and dream of 1 jf-17 defeating 4 mki's and bla bla bla
> 
> 
> truth is lca is way more advanced than jf-17 if you dont believe me look at the comparisons:
> 
> lca:
> -50 % composite, lower maintenence, lower rcs, less weight, more performance
> -better avionics (pakistan cant get its hands on Israeli avionics)
> -will soon have a better engine
> -elta 2052 aesa by 2012 (the good thing about delay)
> -really good ew suite (Israel has some of the best)
> -not rushed
> 
> 
> jf-17:
> -barely any composites
> -avionics are french but haven't been integrated yet
> -rd-33 (which i believe is a good engine) but u guys claim otherwise
> -grifo radar? comparable to mig-21's radar
> -chinese or french ew suite?
> -started after lca program and finished before so "rushed"
> -china isn't ordering any
> 
> truth is lca is better than jf-17, considering both will be made inhouse and the labor costs are similar.
> 
> why is lca more expensive than jf-17? 22 million vs 15 million?
> 
> lca has better technology, that is the answer
> 
> and by 2012 induction will start



Firstly to tell u is,the Russian engines are not at all bad,let the 10 MKIs flying remain a story,there are thousands of AC flying around the world with Russian engines or cheap Chinese knockoffs.RD 93 is a development of RD-33 and is a powerful and reliable engine.

Secondly,composites require more intensive maintenance than metal,so LCA does not score in that area.

Thirdly,yes it is technologicaly superior to the JF-17,quadruplex FBW ,Israeli ECM,RADAR etc and hence costlier,but with serial production slated by 2012,the price is supposed to come down.


----------



## LCA

Indicom said:


> Firstly to tell u is,the Russian engines are not at all bad,let the 10 MKIs flying remain a story,there are thousands of AC flying around the world with Russian engines or cheap Chinese knockoffs.RD 93 is a development of RD-33 and is a powerful and reliable engine.
> 
> *Secondly,composites require more intensive maintenance than metal,so LCA does not score in that area.*
> 
> Thirdly,yes it is technologicaly superior to the JF-17,quadruplex FBW ,Israeli ECM,RADAR etc and hence costlier,but with serial production slated by 2012,the price is supposed to come down.



Please explain your II point , it would be good for all of us to know how composite require more maintenance than metal or provide some link about this topic.


----------



## Chanakyaa

Indicom said:


> Firstly to tell u is,the Russian engines are not at all bad,let the 10 MKIs flying remain a story,there are thousands of AC flying around the world with Russian engines or cheap Chinese knockoffs.RD 93 is a development of RD-33 and is a powerful and reliable engine.
> 
> *Secondly,composites require more intensive maintenance than metal,so LCA does not score in that area.*
> 
> Thirdly,yes it is technologicaly superior to the JF-17,quadruplex FBW ,Israeli ECM,RADAR etc and hence costlier,but with serial production slated by 2012,the price is supposed to come down.



Come on . LCA is one of the Most unique Aircraft in this Area.



> Airframe
> 
> The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites (C-FC), and titanium-alloy steels. The Tejas employs C-FC materials for up to 45% of its airframe by weight, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors.
> 
> *Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of C-FCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class.[28] *
> 
> *Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks*.



Read More


----------



## Amanpuneet Singh

Indicom said:


> Firstly to tell u is,the Russian engines are not at all bad,let the 10 MKIs flying remain a story,there are thousands of AC flying around the world with Russian engines or cheap Chinese knockoffs.RD 93 is a development of RD-33 and is a powerful and reliable engine.
> 
> Secondly,composites require more intensive maintenance than metal,so LCA does not score in that area.
> 
> Thirdly,yes it is technologicaly superior to the JF-17,quadruplex FBW ,Israeli ECM,RADAR etc and hence costlier,but with serial production slated by 2012,the price is supposed to come down.



Yes,you have point .There is problem in maintenance of LCA .The greatest value of composite materials is that they can be both lightweight and strong. The heavier an aircraft weighs, the more fuel it burns, so reducing weight is important to aeronautical engineers.

Despite their strength and low weight, composites have not been a miracle solution for aircraft structures. Composites are hard to inspect for flaws. Some of them absorb moisture. Most importantly, they can be expensive, primarily because they are labor intensive and often require complex and expensive fabrication machines. Aluminum, by contrast, is easy to manufacture and repair. Anyone who has ever gotten into a minor car accident has learned that dented metal can be hammered back into shape, but a crunched fiberglass bumper has to be completely replaced. The same is true for many composite materials used in aviation.


----------



## nitesh

You guys really think that you are brilliant then the designers and engineers who are working on LCA?

What makes you think that they have not thought about this?

Don't compare a car with a plane.


----------



## Amanpuneet Singh

nitesh said:


> You guys really think that you are brilliant then the designers and engineers who are working on LCA?
> 
> What makes you think that they have not thought about this?
> 
> Don't compare a car with a plane.


Nitesh i am not comparing car with LCA and i m not saying its flawed all im saying is composite harder mentain than metal bit it gives more than it take as compared to metal.


----------



## nitesh

Amanpuneet Singh said:


> Nitesh i am not comparing car with LCA and i m not saying its flawed all im saying is composite harder mentain than metal bit it gives more than it take as compared to metal.



When you design a plane you take care a lot of parameters like weight, maintainability, RCS of that the particular material etc. Once all the parameters are taken care then you see what is best suited. You can't just harp around with one parameter and keep giving judgments. Any way a link has been posted some post above about maintainability check that.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

rpa1 said:


> dude
> 
> the jf-17 has a very old airframe design compared to the lca, its based on a j-8 upgrade.
> 
> the lca is made of over 50% composite, the jf-17 is mostly metal,
> 
> also, the engine on the jf-17 isn't so great compared to the GE-404 and future lca engines (GE-414, or EJ-2000) according to one of the moderators "russian engines are inferior to western engines of the 100 mki's only 10 are flying due to the crappy russian engines" if thats true, than it'll be even worst for jf-17 since rd-33 isn't a modern engine
> 
> and has the jf-17 been ordered by china?
> 
> you all claim the jf-17 is a miracle plane and dream of 1 jf-17 defeating 4 mki's and bla bla bla
> 
> 
> truth is lca is way more advanced than jf-17 if you dont believe me look at the comparisons:
> 
> lca:
> -50 % composite, lower maintenence, lower rcs, less weight, more performance
> -better avionics (pakistan cant get its hands on Israeli avionics)
> -will soon have a better engine
> -elta 2052 aesa by 2012 (the good thing about delay)
> -really good ew suite (Israel has some of the best)
> -not rushed
> 
> 
> jf-17:
> -barely any composites
> -avionics are french but haven't been integrated yet
> -rd-33 (which i believe is a good engine) but u guys claim otherwise
> -grifo radar? comparable to mig-21's radar
> -chinese or french ew suite?
> -started after lca program and finished before so "rushed"
> -china isn't ordering any
> 
> truth is lca is better than jf-17, considering both will be made inhouse and the labor costs are similar.
> 
> why is lca more expensive than jf-17? 22 million vs 15 million?
> 
> lca has better technology, that is the answer
> 
> and by 2012 induction will start



what a piece of pile jack $hit you have created! who told you that? you losers scroll down *wikipeedia *and think you know every thing now! 

here is a better comparision between the two. 
btw LCA with AESA and Kavir engine wont be ready before 2025!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

danny said:


> What was that? guy's have you heard of anything like that before? I haven't.
> 
> By the way we should stop comparing as this will lead to nowhere. Indians, lets do these silently. Time will tell where we are in the aircraft industry and thats what we are trying to build. by the way LCA is our aircraft and next one will be better. PAK will still be building and collaborating . Lets hope Kaveri ignites by 2009.



Has that tiny single cell brain of yours just had a seizure from a comparative youtube video? wait before i provide some more ("non wikipeedia" indian wet-dream) and see how you cope with that this time along with your delusional indian mates.

Aliph Ahmed from *********** came up with very factual information about LCA.



> -First 40 will not meet the ASR.
> -LCA at present is only pulling 6gs. ASR has been decreased to 8gs from 9g (For the benefit of LCA?)
> -No way to meet the ASR unless a different engine other then the IN20 is bought.
> -Empty weight of LCA is 6.5 tons now.
> -To take it from AoA of 20 upwards, India needs help from outside in consultation or it will require double the flights to do it on her own,thus more delay.
> -The new engine will be installed after the first 40 LCAs.
> 
> 
> The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle
> 
> Link to the report that *LCA is unable to pull greater then 17 degrees of AoA *dated June 06, 2008: Also mentioned in 25th issue of Janes Defence Weekly but one need subscription for it.
> 
> Also the same link that states that *first 40 will be incapable of combat*.
> 
> LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
> 
> Link to the report that 20 LCA will be produced by 2011 and the other 20 by 2016. Therefore 40 by 2016. The article is dated June 16, 2008:
> 
> http://news.webindia123.com/news/Art...16/975849.html
> 
> This link is an interview of Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, P.S. Subramanyam dated 12th of July 2008 where he clearly acknowledges the previous links I have posted such as first 40 will not meet the ASR, the aircraft gone heavier, LCA has around 500 flight hours to date, only way to meet the ASR is to go for a new engine and etc etc.
> 
> http://www.forceindia.net/interview4.asp
> 
> 
> This is coming from Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, P.S. Subramanyam. Sounds enough of an expert on LCA to me.
> 
> This is what he had to say about Kaveri:
> 
> Kaveri engine was fine for the LCA programme when it started. But as we have shifted the goal-post, which is the LCA weight, the Kaveri engine does not meet the ASR requirement. In the meantime, I am also requesting GTRE that technologies are available in the world to make the Kaveri engine fulfil the ASR requirements.
> 
> This is what he had to say about both the engines:
> 
> We used GE 404 F2J3 engine for the test. However, the latest test of LSP 2 was done with GE 404 IN20 engine, which is slightly more powerful than the earlier one. The IAF, in what are called the Air Staff Requirements (ASR), is asking for certain parameters to be met. Both the engines now fitted on the LCA do not meet the ASR completely.
> 
> http://www.forceindia.net/interview4.asp


----------



## Chanakyaa

PC said:


> Has that tiny single cell brain of yours just had a seizure from a comparative youtube video? wait before i provide some more ("non wikipeedia" indian wet-dream) and see how you cope with that this time along with your delusional indian mates.
> 
> Aliph Ahmed from *********** came up with very factual information about LCA.



You are Missing one Basic fact.
LCA is NOT going to be India's Prime Defence while JF-17 will be Your Main Fighter Jet.
Where will JF17 Stand when Its Knocked down by Mig-29 BVR ( Leave aside the Mighty SU- 30 MKI infront of it ) ?

LCA will replace the MiG 21s.. Its Mainly for Number and to Boost the MCA Project.


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## shchinese

how about considering to import some of these L-15 aircrafts? they can be easily converted to light fighters, actually all gears are already there from day one. 

YouTube - chinese L-15 Advanced Jet Trainer CHINA AIR SHOW 2008

YouTube - china fight l15 ? ? A


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## shchinese

one thing to consider - you don't need to wait another 5 years to get this, much cheaper than LCA, *and the performance is even better*.


----------



## ju87

PC said:


> Has that tiny single cell brain of yours just had a seizure from a comparative youtube video? wait before i provide some more ("non wikipeedia" indian wet-dream) and see how you cope with that this time along with your delusional indian mates.
> 
> Aliph Ahmed from *********** came up with very factual information about LCA.



 I know where Aliph Ahmed trolls around. If you check the same site, you'll find his stupid diatribes rebutted easily. I won't say anymore, due to this forum's policy.


----------



## ju87

shchinese said:


> one thing to consider - you don't need to wait another 5 years to get this, much cheaper than LCA, *and the performance is even better*.



Deal! You, sire, can go convince the Chinese govt to sell aircraft to India!


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## LCA

ju87 said:


> Deal! You, sire, can go convince the Chinese govt to sell aircraft to India!



It's just another copy work of china.

And India definitely not interested to buy a copycat junk.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

rpa1 said:


> ok so umm...
> 
> F-404: total thrust # 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
> RD-33: 8,300 kgf (81.3 kN, 18,285 lbf) with afterburner
> 
> and these are from the "official" GE and Kimov sites
> 
> and if lca weighs less than the jf-17, either there isn't a problem with the lca, or there is a problem.
> 
> but that means if there is a problem with the lca and not with the jf-17 than that must mean all of those pakistani generals must making false statements about the jf-17. if 17k lb thrust is enough for jf-17 to carry full weapons load than why cant the lighter lca carry the same?
> 
> and idk anything about g-limit or anything...
> 
> but TVC will solve all of those problems



You can ask these questions to LCA Chief director and ask him why LCA cant pull more then 6Gs and 17+ degree AOA! plus LCA has also gained alot of weight over the past years! 
on 23rd march 2007 (public display) JF-17 finnished a 360 degree turn in same amount of time as F-16 pulling 9Gs! As for now for the first 50 JF-17 batch, RD-93 is a decent engine. the block 2 (2012) will have a european or a more powerful chinese engine. 





XiNiX said:


> You are Missing one Basic fact.
> LCA is NOT going to be India's Prime Defence while JF-17 will be Your Main Fighter Jet.
> Where will JF17 Stand when Its Knocked down by Mig-29 BVR ( Leave aside the Mighty SU- 30 MKI infront of it ) ?
> 
> LCA will replace the MiG 21s.. Its Mainly for Number and to Boost the MCA Project.



What utter nonsence! who told you that? JF-17 and LCA both have same role which is to replace aging fleet and keep up the squadron numbers up! We also have F-16 MLU/52+ and FC-20 as front line fighters along with JF-17 which btw will be well capable enough to engage just about any non stealth fighter india will pitich for next 2 decades! As for Mig-29 lol. let me ask you, how will Mig-29 cope with JF-17 smaller RCS, MICA, (maybe AIM-120C5) A-Darter, Data linked with AEW&CS, and in the hands of supirior pilot? 
JF-17 is not some cr@ppy looking fighter that you see in your bhratrakcha.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

WHat? who told you that? Are you really dumb or you are just pretending to be one? looks like your knowlage is limited to your surroundings only. 



rpa1 said:


> 1. jf-17 cant be datalinked with eyrie, only to Y-8 which is inferior to eyrie.



Only First 50 Batch of JF-17 wont be datalinked to Erieye because they will be basic version with chinese avionics, radar etc, however starting from 2011 next 100 JF-17 batch will incooperate French RC-400 radar, european avionics, and definatly this version will be data linked to both Erieye and ZDK-03 like ACM of PAF said in one of his interviews. 



> 2. chinese engines aren't better than Russian engines



Chinese WS-13 engine is a candidate for next JF-17 batch which btw is a diverdent of AL-31! 



> 3. European engines=too expensive and no news report confirming it


very poor information you have! French have offered pakistan M53 currently used on Mirage-2000.



> 4. F-16 although good isn't the best F-16 out there and ur neighbor has experience training with it


Once they are given MLU they will be more advance then any of your 4th generation MRCA and lol that joke LCA comes no where close to it. well buddy just to let you know, PAF has had more experiance with your Fighters we literally know mirage-2000, mig-29, su-27 inside out! lol



> 5. jf-17 and j-10 aren't compatible with American weapons


well ya kind of.



> 6. paf pilots aren't superior, for 1 reason: money with a 3 billion dollar budget for armed forces 1/3rd the size of ur neighbor, u need 10 billion to do what ur neighbor can.


lol...  you got to be kiddin me?! 

*Pakistan's Professionals.*
"Overall the PAF are a highly professional air force and this is reflected in their high standards of instructions and flying training." 
(Steve Bond commenting about PAF's flying training program. Journal: Air Forces Monthly, May 1990.) 


*Airforces Monthly *
Article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47 by Sergey Vekhov) 

An article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable UK-based air defence magazine, written by a Russian aviation writer, Sergey Vekhov, for the first time in public, provided a first-hand account about the PAF's pilots: 

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1997, "it leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far behind". 


*Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998) *
The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF, has at least one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professionals' during exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots). The IAF is in an unfortunate position: it lacks an advanced training (and multi-role combat aircraft 






> 7. rcs doesn't matter if there are 6 Phalcons with 500 km range looking into pakistan


 6? first of all only 3 by 2012 
Phalcon has as much range as Erieye
and India is not gonna pitch all of its AWAC at pakistan as you will have alot of gap holes in other parts of india. 



> u think just b.c. paf has bvr means it can challenge anyone, that my friend is wrong. bvr is very complex, after u fire and ur enemy fire, u must dodge it, deploy ew countermeasures/flares, and guide ur own missiles. many many more factors, since mig-29 is larger it has more electronics, and that's what its all about nowadays.


 okay no comments on that.. 
BTW you are really dumb.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## linkinpark

PC said:


> *5. jf-17 and j-10 aren't compatible with American weapons*
> Thats such a thick head statement! what do you mean!?



That is a true statement. If you have to integrate American missiles onto Chinese A/C, the americans have to get involved with Chinese made jets. Why do you think that American will collaborate with Chinese in this matter.

But you can integrate missiles from other western countries though, like french ones.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

India, Israel on verge of closing defense system deal - Haaretz - Israel News

The Indian government had also approved a transaction of about a quarter of a million dollars for the purchase of Rafael's Spider air-to-air missiles and an ELTA radar system.


----------



## LCA

*L&T to set up research facility for weapons systems developed by DRDO
*
Mumbai, Jan 22: Heavy engineering giant Larsen & Toubro (L&T) will set up a major research facility that will conceptualise weapons systems developed by government agency DRDO for commercial production.

"We are not looking to set up something parallel to the DRDO. It will be complementary," L&T Board Member M V Kotwal said.

"As far as investments are concerned, we are ready. Once the green signal is given (by the government), then we can work on it," he added.

Elaborating on the research facility, he said the DRDO will play a valuable role if it restricts to real cutting edge high-end technologies, which India is yet to acquire. There are huge facilities and capable people in the DRDO, Kotwal said.

L&T would concentrate on applying the high-end technologies developed by DRDO, he said. "We can take up that role rather than DRDO wasting its time."

The premier defence research agency should look at the front-end, which requires large investments, because that is what it already has, he said. "DRDO has huge facilities and capable people," the L&T official said.

But as far as applying those technologies are concerned, L&T can take up that role, Kotwal said.

"We are geared up for things."

The heavy engineering firm is also planning investments at its manufacturing base in Coimbatore where various divisions of the company are setting up a unit.

The Coimbatore facility was mainly for defence and aerospace equipment manufacturing, Kotwal said, adding, "The facility would concentrate on high precision manufacturing."

Also, it being a base for high-precision manufacturing, the company has set up two modules there, he said. "We have capacity to add on because it is a very large area."

The private company is looking at building aircraft as well at Coimbatore, but it depends on government policies, he said.

As there is no road map for aircraft manufacturing, "Today we are talking about precision manufacturing. We are supporting a large number of Hindustan Aeronautical Ltd (HAL) programmes. Not only metallics, but composites," he said.

"We intend growing in that area. The base at Coimbatore can build towards aircraft manufacturing."

"There is a potential to go into full aircraft manufacturing in the years to come. We are progressively going in the direction. But there is no immediate plan to get into the commercial aircraft business," the L&T board member said.

As of now, HAL in Bangalore is the only aircraft maker for air force. L&T has been working for HAL to make sub-assemblies.

"*In addition to Coimbatore, we have got a facility in Vadodara. That has been expanded to take up composite manufacture, which are used for aircraft and missiles,*" Kotwal said.


----------



## badguy2000

PC said:


> WHat? who told you that? Are you really dumb or you are just pretending to be one? looks like your knowlage is limited to your surroundings only.
> 
> 
> 
> Only First 50 Batch of JF-17 wont be datalinked to Erieye because they will be basic version with chinese avionics, radar etc, however starting from 2011 next 100 JF-17 batch will incooperate French RC-400 radar, european avionics, and definatly this version will be data linked to both Erieye and ZDK-03 like ACM of PAF said in one of his interviews.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese WS-13 engine is a candidate for next JF-17 batch which btw is a diverdent of AL-31!
> 
> 
> very poor information you have! French have offered pakistan M53 currently used on Mirage-2000.
> 
> 
> Once they are given MLU they will be more advance then any of your 4th generation MRCA and lol that joke LCA comes no where close to it. well buddy just to let you know, PAF has had more experiance with your Fighters we literally know mirage-2000, mig-29, su-27 inside out! lol
> 
> 
> well ya kind of.
> 
> 
> lol...  you got to be kiddin me?!
> 
> *Pakistan's Professionals.*
> "Overall the PAF are a highly professional air force and this is reflected in their high standards of instructions and flying training."
> (Steve Bond commenting about PAF's flying training program. Journal: Air Forces Monthly, May 1990.)
> 
> 
> *Airforces Monthly *
> Article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47 by Sergey Vekhov)
> 
> An article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable UK-based air defence magazine, written by a Russian aviation writer, Sergey Vekhov, for the first time in public, provided a first-hand account about the PAF's pilots:
> 
> "As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1997, "it leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far behind".
> 
> 
> *Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998) *
> The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF, has at least one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professionals' during exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots). The IAF is in an unfortunate position: it lacks an advanced training (and multi-role combat aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6? first of all only 3 by 2012
> Phalcon has as much range as Erieye
> and India is not gonna pitch all of its AWAC at pakistan as you will have alot of gap holes in other parts of india.
> 
> 
> okay no comments on that..
> BTW you are really dumb.



1. WS13 is a mixure of CHina's aborted project of TS21 and RD93,instead of *"diverdent of AL-31! "*
And, China's aborted project of TS21 was a candidate engine for CHina's 5G aircraft J13/14. But it was aborted ,then CHina applys some tech of TS21 to WS13.
In fact, WS13 should be a bit better than RD93.


----------



## LCA

This is good that LCA crosses Phase - I and 1000 sorties.

But I think the main thing is the number of test point tested in these sorties.

Do you have any idea or information that how many test point for LCA in IOC.

And how many get tested?


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## nitesh

Regarding the number of test points there is no information in public domain. So really Can't help you much in this area. But check the LCA director's interview in this thread (post 603) it should clear lot of doubts.


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## LCA

i read that thread, but not much information is given reagarding no. of test point for IOC.

But one thing is sure by this testing india going learn many things and gain precious experience for thier future model of testing.


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## nitesh

LiveFist: Photos: Tejas completes 1,000 test-flights

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## proud_indian

nice photographs nitesh

keep it up bro


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## Chanakyaa

A very Detaiiled Info and data about LCA :

Radiance of the Tejas : By B. Harry
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/Aircraft/Tejas-Radiance.pdf

And Some Pics :

LCA Cockpit :


LCA Simulator :


LCA Navel version :

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## Indicom

Nice pics,just saw it in BR,by the way,the cockpit displayed here is a mockup,the current cockpit is much better than this one.


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## Chanakyaa

Indicom said:


> Nice pics,just saw it in BR,by the way,the cockpit displayed here is a mockup,the current cockpit is much better than this one.



Can u share a pic of the current Cockpit ?
Thanks.


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## Amanpuneet Singh

naval version looks really good is it going to have a2a refuller too?


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## nitesh

'Tejas' LCA completes 1,000th sortie-India-The Times of India

NEW DELHI: After a meandering saga of 26 years, the &#8216;Tejas' Light Combat Aircraft is now finally 1,000 flights old. On Thursday, a Tejas prototype took to the skies in Bangalore to clock the 1,000th sortie for the still under-development multirole fighter, totalling over 530

The long-delayed indigenous `Tejas' fighter seems to have finally gained some momentum now, with defence minister A K Antony promising that IAF will get the first LCA by 2011. *IAF for now has placed an order for only one LCA squadron of 20 jets but the eventual aim is to have at least seven such squadrons.* 

"The LCA's basic glass cockpit has been tested extensively along with some of the operational sensors like the DASH helmet and litening laser designation pod,'' said the official.


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## AK-47

Tejas LCA crosses impressive milestone &#8211; logs 1,002 flights news 

23 January 2009 


New Delhi: India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme logged an impressive milestone completing 1002 flights on Thursday. The sortie lasted about 30 minutes, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) sources said here, and was carried out by Group Captain JA Maolankar, chief test pilot of the National Flight Test Centre. 
The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft took off for its first flight on 4 January 2001 in a sortie that lasted 18 minutes. The flight was carried out by the very first Tejas aircraft called the Technology Demonstrator-1 (TD-1). The programme has come a long way since.

"That the programme achieved this milestone without any major setbacks bears testimony to the skill and competence of all the programme components. The Tejas team has become a role model for executing large R&D programmes in the country," programme director MS Subramanyam said. 

The first phase of the LCA programme (Full Scale Engineering Development-Phase I) was geared towards demonstrating four key technologies like the quadruplex redundant digital fly by wire system, an all-glass cockpit, carbon composite primary structures and microprocessor based control of utility systems.

With its successful completion, the programme is now into Phase-II, the objective of which is to deliver an operationally capable aircraft for induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) and subsequently into the Indian Navy.

A total of seven aircraft are currently part of the flight test programme. 

The Tejas is slated to enter operational service by December 2010 with Initial Operational Clearance.

Speaking to members of "Team Tejas" after the flight, Gp Capt JA Maolankar said: "For a project that has so ambitiously pushed the envelope of indigenous technology, the results have been world-class in many key areas." 

domain-b.com : Tejas LCA crosses impressive milestone  logs 1,002 flights


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## BATMAN

> The Tejas is slated to enter operational service by December 2010 with Initial Operational Clearance.


I think domain-b and you have not read the recent interview of your aircheif.
He did not counted LCA in his future planning till 2022.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...shal-fali-h-major-indian-air-force-chief.html


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## nitesh

BATMAN, you must have read the thread that you are posting right?


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## zeus

BATMAN said:


> I think domain-b and you have not read the recent interview of your aircheif.
> He did not counted LCA in his future planning till 2022.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...shal-fali-h-major-indian-air-force-chief.html



that article doesn't even mention Pak-Fa does not mean we will be not inducting it ,nor does the article say anything on non inducting it in future


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## ejaz007

When is the first squadron expected to be inducted.


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## nitesh

dec 2010 ezaz

Reactions: Like Like:
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## chirag.s

hi guys just a small question 

why does the IAF not learn from other air forces don't they know that rafale and f-16 were initially intended for air defence roles .and now USA has more than 1000 f-16s after their air force supported LM .if the air force does not step in and help HAL and just say that the aircraft does not meet the specifications nothings gonna work out .recently 2 months ago there was an exhibition of defence companies in Bangalore i asked the executive at the cauvery engine display (they had got the real thing) he said the air force keeps shifting the the objectives frequently and it is very frustrating for them LCA is more capable than mig-21 bis which it is replacing and it is easy to fly and control than the mirage which currently serves with us this is what i herd from him .the test pilots are intentionally drawn forom squadrons with different fighter aircraft even a su-30 wing cdr is a test pilot .they have to understand it is a multi-dimensional approach when once the plane is induced that means more flying hours which inturn means more glitches are known in a shorter span of time and more pilots working means more inputs to solve the problem coz the engineers dont fly

thank you


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## LCA

*Tejas to add firepower to Indian Air Force*

New Delhi, Jan 24, 2009: In an effort to add firepower to its Air Force, Indias is developing -- Tejas-- a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to be launched by 2010. LCA was in the final stages of testing and by 2010 it was expected to be launched, a source in the Indian Defence Ministry told. *After LCAs are launched, the MiG-21 fighter jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) would be gradually phased out, the source added.*

Tejas is being developed by Indias Defence Research Development Organisation. Tejas underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station in the Western Indian city of Nagpur recently, the source said, adding, the trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period. The aim of the trials was to check operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 deg C, representative of the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in, after induction into the IAF.

"All aircraft systems, specifically the avionics system, flight control system and air conditioning system of Tejas were tested extensively during the trials and functioned satisfactorily on ground as well in flight," the source said, adding, a total of seven flights of four hours duration were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft PV2 and PV3. The tests included flights at 200 meters above the ground with a speed up to 1000 km per hour.

"It was the first time that the Tejas flew a non-stop distance of about 1, 000 km from Southern Indian city of Bangalore to Nagpur. This was possible due to the presence of external fuel tanks on the aircraft which were integrated recently. This was also the first time that the Tejas aircraft had been flown at such high ambient temperature conditions. A first look at the test data indicated that all the trial objectives were met satisfactorily," the source informed.

The successful completion of the trial marked a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearance and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the IAF. Tejas is now planned for delivering precision guided bombs in the deserts of Western Indian state of Rajasthan, later this year.

In the meantime Indias indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas today completed 1000 test flights. It is set to be fully operational in 2010.

The successful 1000 test flights have given a sense of relief to scientists involved in the projects.


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## LCA

Some reports also said that it crosses 530 hours of testing.


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## nitesh

old news, IAF had already rjected french company offer:

Deccan Herald - IAF, research firm lock horns

IAF, research firm lock horns
Bidanda M Chengappa ,DH News Service,Bangalore:
The Indian Air Force (IAF) and the City-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) are divided over development of the controversial Kaveri engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).


Informed sources aver that the Kaveri engine, if developed with its present thrust, is insufficient to power the LCA in accordance with the IAF's operational requirements. This implies that the Kaveri engine has to be re-designed to generate a higher thrust. Therefore the IAF has already convinced the government to de-link the Kaveri engine from the first few LCA squadrons.
The GTRE, which forms part of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), was compelled to seek help from foreign aero-engine majors to co-develop the Kaveri engine in late 2004, because it could not make much headway having spent Rs 2,000 crore since 1989. The GTRE lacks the know-how to develop 'hot end' components for an aero- engine which comprise the core of the Kaveri engine. Considering only a handful of eastern countries possess the scientific capability to develop aero-engine technologies, the GTRE felt that joint development was the only solution to get the Kaveri engine ready for the LCA on some schedule. 
Accordingly the GTRE was keen on co-development of the Kaveri engine with the French aero-engine manufacturer Snecma.
The French offer proposes to bring the core of an already developed M-82 Eco engine in the late 1970s and tailored for the Rafale fighter aircraft for use in the Kaveri.
However the IAF has serious reservations about the transfer of technology route for further development of the Kaveri engine. Accepting the Snecma offer implies importing the core and its integration with the Kaveri engine; besides paying a lifelong royalty, say the sources. This French technology would cost the exchequer dearly and also lead to a technology transfer stretched out over a 15-year period, they add. 
An IAF committee, instituted in September 2008 to study the Snecma offer, feels that it would not meet the air force's operational requirement nor help to acquire technology for futuristic development of an aero-engine for a fighter aircraft.
It also observes that the offer would prove detrimental to the DRDOs efforts to develop the Kaveri engine till now. 
The GTRE and the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, Hyderabad have been at the forefront of the Kaveri engine development and form part of the DRDO 's 49 laboratories spread across the length and breadth of the country. 
The original deal was that both partners, namely, the GTRE and the chosen foreign aero-engine major would contribute financially and technologically in equal measure.


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## LCA

*$20 million aid sought to speed up LCA project *

BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has sought an assistance of around $20 million from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) to speed up the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme that is behind schedule.

Disclosing this to The Hindu, a senior ADA official said the EADS would help in solving a number of problems the programme was facing. 

Though the ADA initially envisaged an assistance only for the LCAs fledgling flight test programme, where the EADS will provide crucial inputs, now the European consortiums expertise is also being sought in realms such as brake management, the weight of the undercarriage, and redesigning the wheels and tyres to reduce wear and tear. 

The EADS will offer its expertise in reducing the weight of the LCAs undercarriage. (overweight by at least 1.5 tonnes). The weight of the undercarriage of the naval variant is almost 400 kg in excess.The EADS assistance will run for 48 months, with the European giant helping the ADA to get the final operational clearance for the LCA Tejas.


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## nitesh

LCA can you please post the links also with the article

Any way DDM on full swing so now EADS will give money to ADA or what?

Pathetic reporting


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> LCA can you please post the links also with the article
> 
> Any way DDM on full swing so now EADS will give money to ADA or what?
> 
> Pathetic reporting



here is the link 

$20 million aid sought to speed up LCA project


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## nitesh

EJ 200 is selected?

India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has decided to rope in European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) to speed up the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme which is running behind schedule.


As per reports from ' The Hindu ' EADS has been also given task of redesigning of the undercarriage of LCA and even Redesigning the Landing gear possible to make way for the integration of the Eurojet EJ200 turbofan Jet engine which is used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

ADA earlier had talks with Boeing to Help reduce Test flights and bring in their expertise to to get the final operational clearance for the LCA Tejas by 2012 .but the deal did not make way has Boeing came up with some clauses which where not acceptable to ADA or Tejas Program in general

Boeing Droped and EAD Brought in to speed up Tejas programme www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing


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## adiboy_29

shchinese said:


> dude, I have been hearing such claims a lot of times in the past several years and I have to admit the effectives of the "service based" economy.
> 
> when I was talking to some Indians about the lack of infrastructures in India, I was told that "our economy is service based", so no needs to have so many roads/ports.
> 
> when I was talking to some Indians about the lack of educational investment in India, I was told "our economy is service based".


atleast we are not ruled by dictator communists that everybody hates . the only countries which are your friends need you .and talking about economies . the way our economy has withstood the recession is just gr8 it has been accepted worldwide unlike urs . if usa even sneezes ur econmy catches cold

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

EADS To Aid Flight Trials of Indian LCA
Author: idrw team | 28 January 2009 | Views: 6

BY: Army Times Publishing Company

The Indian Defence Ministry has short-listed EADS on a $20 million contract to aid in the flight trials of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The deal is expected to be signed during Aero India 2009, from Feb. 11-14 at Bangalore, said a senior Defence Ministry official.

India's Aeronautical Development Agency, which designed, developed and monitors the LCA, had sought overseas partners to carry out design-and-development work in the flight-testing stage. *The consulting company would help speed the flight testing through initial operational clearance and final operational clearance.*

Technical and commercial bids had been invited from EADS, Saab of Sweden, Dassault of France, Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the United States, and MiG Corp. of Russia.

*LCA development areas that EADS would aid include flight envelope expansion; flight testing for high angle of attack; aero database validation; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation modeling and testing; wake modeling and penetration flight tests; and refinements to existing simulation models.*

LCA is preparing to enter into the weapon-integration stage, and the first aircraft are expected to be inducted into the Air Force by 2010, nearly 15 years behind schedule.

The Air Force has ordered 20 LCAs valued at more than $500 million. State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics is expected to roll out eight aircraft annually. The aim of the current flight trial program is to achieve initial operational clearance with the multimode radar integrated with a weapon suite. It could take three years and about 1,500 hours of flight testing to move into final operational clearance.

Eight limited series production aircraft, along with two technical demonstrators and five prototypes, are part of the LCA's design-and-development program.

The LCA is a single-seat, single-engine, supersonic multirole air superiority fighter jet designed for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea combat roles.

EADS To Aid Flight Trials of Indian LCA www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing


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## LCA

Well it looklike EJ2000 will be selected for LCA ,after reading above two article.

And if india get TOT of EJ2000 for Kaveri ,then typhoon definitely india's MRCA.


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## LCA

hi guies

Some thought about Kaveri and its supercruise capability.

GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It say's if kaveri can generate a overall pressure ratio of 27:1 then it can *supercruise*.

Now for overall pressure ratio:

Overall pressure ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is calculation below link, it indicate 27:1 ratio can generate very high temperature which can damage engin blades,see in the disadvantage of ratio.

That's why GTRE go for Single crystal SC technology.

Now,if we get these technolgy or consultancy from EADS then definitely it can boost Kaveri programme.

Pressure Ratio-

EJ2000: 26:1
F414:30:1
Kaveri:21:1


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## nitesh

LCA said:


> That's why GTRE go for Single crystal SC technology.
> 
> Now,if we get these technolgy or consultancy from EADS then definitely it can boost Kaveri programme.



Are you sure we don't have technology? check this

http://www.drdo.org/pub/nl/oct05/

http://www.midhani.com/downloads/anlrep0506-en.pdf


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> Are you sure we don't have technology? check this
> 
> http://www.drdo.org/pub/nl/oct05/
> 
> http://www.midhani.com/downloads/anlrep0506-en.pdf



I think you heard about that Kavery have 90-93 % of performance.

That means if we have SC technology then it need improvement Because it unable to take temperature of the pressure ratio of 27:1.
And EADS can help GTRE to achieve full perfoemance.


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## nitesh

I was only pointing towards whether we have SC tech or not. IS SC only ensures that engine gets the right performance? I don't think so.


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## nitesh

India boosts arms modernisation after Mumbai - International Herald Tribune

India is speeding a nearly $1 billion (704 million pounds) domestic weapons development programme to modernise its armed forces, the defence research department said on Thursday, following renewed tensions with Pakistan over the attacks in Mumbai.

*The plans include inducting 124 main battle tanks for the Indian army by December, the first of a batch of locally-made combat aircraft for the navy also by the end of the year, and unmaned aerial vehicles to boost border surveillance.*

"There is a certain push now to complete projects on time and deliver the goods for low intensity battles or to counter bigger security threats in the region," Suranjan Pal, a spokesman of the government-run Defence Research and Development Organisation, said.

Tensions between India and Pakistan mounted after the attacks in Mumbai in November, which New Delhi said were carried out by Pakistani nationals and must have had support from Pakistani state agencies.

Since the Mumbai attacks, local media has highlighted the many antiquated weapons system that India has, from artillery to tanks, and poor surveillance capabilities.

"India's military capability had been shrinking as modernisation efforts were moving very slowly, but now there is more interest being shown," C. Uday Bhaskar, a strategic affairs expert, said.

*The modernisation plans include developing the Agni-5 missile, capable of carrying a nuclear warhead and hitting targets 5,000 km (3,100 miles) away, and torpedoes and planes for the navy.*

India is also one of the world's biggest arms importers, but government officials and experts said the priority was to boost indigenous capacity and reduce reliance on foreign suppliers.

"Foreign countries are generally not interested in sharing critical technology with us, so we are pushing more for indigenous development," Pal said.

The DRDO has often been criticised in the past by experts for delays on key projects, including the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and an Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS).

*The naval version of the LCA will enter service in December this year (VDM) while the air force will get 20 planes next year.* The aircraft is a supersonic, all-weather fighter which has been under development for more than two decades.


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## BATMAN

DRDO ropes in European consortium for light combat aircraft



> Country's premier fighter aircraft development agency Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has proposed to award a contract worth over USD 20 million to European consortium EADS for providing consultancy to increase the flight envelope of the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)'Tejas'.
> 
> "We have proposed to award the contract to the EADS to help us in carrying out the flight trials of the aircraft and see how its flight envelope can be increased," a DRDO source told&#65533;media here.
> 
> On the reasons for hiring the services of a foreign fighter aircraft manufacturer, the source said:" EADS has a long experience in development of aircraft for its member partners and moreover, we wanted to utilise their experience in evaluating our aircraft with out endangering it."
> 
> During the flight testing, *ADA is expected to seek EADS assistance in increasing the"angle of attack" of the LCA*, sources said. The association, they said, will be more beneficial for the next version of the LCA than the present ones.
> 
> DRDO sources dismissed reports about ADA seeking finances from foreign aircraft manufacturers for the technological development of the aircraft, which has been on drawing boards since the 80s.
> 
> The programme is currently in Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II, under which the DRDO is trying to develop the aircraft for delivering it to the IAF by December 2010.
> 
> Last October, Defence Minister A K Antony had dispelled doubts over the viability of LCA'Tejas', saying the project was very much on track and there was no question of abandoning the programme. He also set a deadline of 2011 for the completion of the project. The IAF would get a delivery of 20 LCAs for one of its two squadrons to be raised by 2011 and as a follow-on order, the IAF would raise five more squadrons.
> 
> Recently,'Tejas' achieved the milestone of completing 1,000 sorties. In the past 12 months,'Tejas' has been successfully operated from searing hot central Indian airfields at the height of summer as well as the cold and rarefied environs of a Ladakh winter. Seven prototypes of the aircraft are participating in ongoing trials which are being conducted in different parts of the country.


http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news/latest-news/489510/Technology/8/20/8
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3922101&c=AIR&s=TOP

So much for the indegenous LCA.
Anyhow, this news clearly shows that LCA is still a paper plane.
It also clarify that LCA lags far behind any 3rd generation fighter jet in specifications at least when it comes to angle of attack.
I expect drastic changes in airframe.


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## nitesh

BATMAN, I don't understand how you reached the conclusion that "airframe change" will be needed?


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## nitesh

Recession comes as refreshing change for LCA project 

Global recession comes as refreshing change for indigenous LCA project

New Delhi, Feb 01: The global meltdown has come as a blessing in disguise for the country's indigenous fighter aircraft development programme -- Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Unable to retain its flock due to the Information Technology (IT) boom in the past, India's premier Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) believes that recession will help complete its LCA programme in time.

"After recessionary trends in the economy, we are not losing men to the IT industry, which will help our efforts to complete the programme in time," ADA Director P S Subrahmanyam said here.

On the exodus of LCA programme team members to IT industries in early part of the decade, Subrahmanyam said, "The LCA team comprises 350 members and in last five years more than 150 of them left for greener pastures."

After the global economy started to slowdown, former members of the LCA team have started approaching DRDO to work on the indigenous aircraft development programme.

"I am getting feelers from people who had left us then and joined companies such as Wipro, Satyam, Infosys and other major IT companies that they again want to join the prestigious programme," Subrahmanyam said.

Bureau Report


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## zavis2003

I hope that this LCA (Low capability aircraft) would be develop soon


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## nitesh

Inshallah


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## duhastmish

That's the best sign of good news i heard in ages coming from D.R.D.O, I would love to see my bird flying in skies. go LCA. its not just a machine but so many Indian hopes are hanging on it. 
Still the greatest day for Indian defense will be the day we will fly L.C.A with our own AESA And kaveri fitted. I hope the day is not too far away.


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## nitesh

(03-Feb-09)Tejas-LCA


LCA-Tejas has completed 1011 Test Flights successfully. (03-Feb-09).
LCA has completed 1011 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-298,PV1-182,PV2-107,PV3-120,LSP1-33,LSP2-38).
107th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 02nd Feb 09.
120th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 02nd Feb 09.
33rd flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 02nd Feb 09.
38th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 02nd Feb 09.


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## nitesh

ADA plans to develop medium combat aircraft with IAF

ADA plans to develop medium combat aircraft with IAF

Bangalore, Feb 03: Aeronautical Development Agency, a Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) lab, plans to design and develop a medium combat aircraft with "stealth features" in partnership with Indian Air Force, an ADA official said on Tuesday.

*"We are working with (Indian) Air Force as to what their requirement is"*, ADA Director P S Subramanyam told PTI here.
*
"They (IAF) are also coming forward to evolve the specifications of medium combat aircraft...what we call next generation fighter aircraft,"* Subramanyam said.

He said it would be in the 20-tonne category, twin-engine aircraft, likely to be powered by the Kaveri-Snecma engine. "It will have stealth features," he said.

"It's going to be a *joint activity (between ADA and IAF) from beginning*", Subramanyam said, adding "it's good that even Air Force is also feeling that we should take up this programme".

Meanwhile, he also said the *Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has started flying with weapons, and integration of radars would be completed by next month.*

"Once I do that, more or less system development activity (of LCA-Tejas) is completed", he added.

Bureau Report


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## nitesh

domain-b.com : EADS to join LCA programme; agreement in next three months

EADS to join LCA programme; agreement in next three months news 
03 February 2009

New Delhi: In an attempt to speed up some aspects of the LCA programme, India is likely to offer European consortium EADS a $20 million contract to provide technical help in the flight trials of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. *Even as reports in the media suggest that the deal may be signed during the forthcoming AeroIndia 2009 air show, commencing 11 February at Yelahanka, Bangalore. DRDO sources suggested very likely the deal could be inked sometime over the next three months.*

Technical and commercial bids for the deal had been invited from EADS, Saab of Sweden, Dassault of France, Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the United States, and MiG Corp. of Russia.

Through the deal DRDO's Aeronautical Development Agency expects the shortlisted company, in this case EADS, to help speed the LCA's flight testing through its initial operational clearance (IOC) and final operational clearance (FOC) phases.

*The areas of cooperation could include flight envelope expansion; testing for high angle of attack; aero database validation; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation; wake modeling and penetration flight tests; and refinements to existing simulation models.*

*The LCA programme is currently entering the weapons integration stage and the first lot of aircraft are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2010.* The IAF has ordered 20 of these aircraft in the initial phase.

*DRDO expects to achieve initial operational clearance with the help of a indigenously developed multimode radar integrated with a weapons suite.* It is estimated that FOC could take three years, and an additional 1,500 hours of flight testing, to achieve.

The LCA is a single-seat, single-engine, supersonic multirole air superiority fighter jet of the fourth generation.


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## nitesh

domain-b.com : EADS to join LCA programme; agreement in next three months

EADS to join LCA programme; agreement in next three months news 
03 February 2009

New Delhi: In an attempt to speed up some aspects of the LCA programme, India is likely to offer European consortium EADS a $20 million contract to provide technical help in the flight trials of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. *Even as reports in the media suggest that the deal may be signed during the forthcoming AeroIndia 2009 air show, commencing 11 February at Yelahanka, Bangalore. DRDO sources suggested very likely the deal could be inked sometime over the next three months.*

Technical and commercial bids for the deal had been invited from EADS, Saab of Sweden, Dassault of France, Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the United States, and MiG Corp. of Russia.

Through the deal DRDO's Aeronautical Development Agency expects the shortlisted company, in this case EADS, to help speed the LCA's flight testing through its initial operational clearance (IOC) and final operational clearance (FOC) phases.

*The areas of cooperation could include flight envelope expansion; testing for high angle of attack; aero database validation; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation; wake modeling and penetration flight tests; and refinements to existing simulation models.*

*The LCA programme is currently entering the weapons integration stage and the first lot of aircraft are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2010.* The IAF has ordered 20 of these aircraft in the initial phase.

*DRDO expects to achieve initial operational clearance with the help of a indigenously developed multimode radar integrated with a weapons suite.* It is estimated that FOC could take three years, and an additional 1,500 hours of flight testing, to achieve.

The LCA is a single-seat, single-engine, supersonic multirole air superiority fighter jet of the fourth generation.


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## LCA

*With international engines, DRDO fast-tracks LCA project*
4 Feb 2009, 0043 hrs IST, TNN

Bangalore : All doubts raised over LCA being a key fighter aircraft for India owing to delay in the Kaveri engine can be put to rest.
The LCA will fly - and fly on international engines initially. DRDO has decided that Kaveri engine will not be a hindering factor in India showing off the lightest jet fighter.

M Natarajan, scientific adviser to defence minister A K Antony, has publicly spelt out DRDO's determination to fly the LCA in time for the IAF, even if on international engines in the first few squadrons.

At an Aero India press conference on Tuesday, ADA director P S Subramanyam, said: "I am confident that DRDO will keep to the December 2010 initial operational clearance (IOC) plan. We have started weapons testing on the LCA, and soon the aircraft will fly with the hi-tech MMR radar."

*"We can do a few things with the Kaveri engine and fly the LCA no doubt. But that's not the point. There are new specifications and it will take time to meet those. Most of the work with existing specifications is over, but we're working on more complex aspects.*

"Meanwhile, we understand the IAF has tight induction bands and we will get the LCA into those bands. The first two squadrons will fly on GE engines and the next four will fly on any international engine that qualifies our new request for proposals.

"The Kaveri engine will take another five years given the new specifications. *Engine development is not the easiest of things and no one is going to share technology on the platter*.Meanwhile we will keep to IAF requirements," Subramanyam explained.

What this means is operations of the first six LCA squadrons are taken care of -- around 90 aircraft. To a large extent, the aircraft is indigenous and all that would be left would be the engine. *The flight path of the LCA seems clear after the go-ahead for international engines. *


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## nitesh

LCA why you don't put the link with the news item?

link is here: With international engines, DRDO fast-tracks LCA project-Bangalore-Cities-The Times of India

So totally plan is for 6 squadrons even Air Chief has also indicated in this direction.

Good news indeed.


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## AK-47

LCA said:


> *With international engines, DRDO fast-tracks LCA project*
> 4 Feb 2009, 0043 hrs IST, TNN
> 
> Bangalore : All doubts raised over LCA being a key fighter aircraft for India owing to delay in the Kaveri engine can be put to rest.
> The LCA will fly - and fly on international engines initially. DRDO has decided that Kaveri engine will not be a hindering factor in India showing off the lightest jet fighter.
> 
> M Natarajan, scientific adviser to defence minister A K Antony, has publicly spelt out DRDO's determination to fly the LCA in time for the IAF, even if on international engines in the first few squadrons.
> 
> At an Aero India press conference on Tuesday, ADA director P S Subramanyam, said: "I am confident that DRDO will keep to the December 2010 initial operational clearance (IOC) plan. We have started weapons testing on the LCA, and soon the aircraft will fly with the hi-tech MMR radar."
> 
> *"We can do a few things with the Kaveri engine and fly the LCA no doubt. But that's not the point. There are new specifications and it will take time to meet those. Most of the work with existing specifications is over, but we're working on more complex aspects.*
> 
> "Meanwhile, we understand the IAF has tight induction bands and we will get the LCA into those bands. The first two squadrons will fly on GE engines and the next four will fly on any international engine that qualifies our new request for proposals.
> 
> "The Kaveri engine will take another five years given the new specifications. *Engine development is not the easiest of things and no one is going to share technology on the platter*.Meanwhile we will keep to IAF requirements," Subramanyam explained.
> 
> What this means is operations of the first six LCA squadrons are taken care of -- around 90 aircraft. To a large extent, the aircraft is indigenous and all that would be left would be the engine. *The flight path of the LCA seems clear after the go-ahead for international engines. *



Awsome news, I cant wait to see our own bird fly over Indian sky. Might use foreign wings(engine) at frist but oh well.


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## LCA

As it look like MMR will finally get integrated with LCA, which mean its A2G problem get sorted out.

MMR is based on pulse-doppler technology.

some people think it is a outdated technology,may be true.

but this technology still in use in many aircraft

Here is the list of using pulse doppler radar:

F-16 A/B,which pakistan have.

F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Typhoon.(Current version)

Euroradar CAPTOR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SaaB gripen(Current Version)

JAS 39 Gripen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mig-29

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

etc,etc

Details of MMR shall be cleared after test


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## LCA

asifs0463 said:


> specs looks good even batter than jf 17 but still think there should be some prob as IAF don't want to buy it.



hi buddy, i think you have the same problem,which aamir khan have in gajni.

Please read this may be you remember something.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...st-tracks_LCA_project/articleshow/4072071.cms


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## tyagi

is this pic of lca


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## Myth_buster_1

^ such a dassault product!


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## BATMAN

nitesh said:


> BATMAN, I don't understand how you reached the conclusion that "airframe change" will be needed?



I don't think EADS has been invited to help in suggesting the required engine power?
Can you please, tell us the g levels of LCA?
How do you think angle of attack can be improved without making any alterations in airframe?

On the otherhand DRDO is claiming that they have met the given design parameters of IAF, than why is it a problem to induct LCA in its present form?

Can you post the parameters of LCA in its present form?


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## BATMAN

LCA said:


> hi buddy, i think you have the same problem,which aamir khan have in gajni.
> 
> Please read this may be you remember something.
> 
> With international engines, DRDO fast-tracks LCA project-Bangalore-Cities-The Times of India



Hi buddy, LCA deficiencies are not limited to engine.
So please, don't try to mislead us by repitative post blaming the failure on delay of Kaveri.
Even if Kaveri would have been ready today it cannot be better than GE engine.
Problems are in overall design.


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## BATMAN

AK-47 said:


> Awsome news, I cant wait to see our own bird fly over Indian sky. Might use foreign wings(engine) at frist but oh well.



EADS invitation was just a reality check.
FYI, foriegn element is not limited to engine alone!
Whole LCA is a product of foreign hand.

Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings


> India&#8217;s &#8216;indigenous&#8217; LCA comes with an American engine, on wing panels imported from Italy and avionics, navigational aids and radars from France, Israel and Sweden.
> 
> &#8216;&#8216;An aircraft has three major components. An engine, airframe and avionics. The GE-F 404 engine is American, most avionics like radars, INGPS, electronic warfare equipment, radar altometre, the fly-by-wire system, ground-mapping system and other pilot-support system are all imported from Israel, France and Sweden. Even the airframe is not entirely Indian. The composite wings have been imported from Italy. *What is creditable is the integration of such complex systems,*&#8217;&#8217; sources in the IAF said.
> 
> While Air Chief Marshal A Y Tipnis urged IAF not to swing from acute scepticism to euphoria after the first flight early last month, his predecessor Air Chief Marshal S K Sareen said that the indigenous components in the LCA were few. *&#8216;&#8216;Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the fly-by-wire control, avionics and engine are not ours,&#8217;&#8217; he said. &#8216;&#8216;So who are we fooling by saying that 70 per cent of the LCA is indigenous,&#8217;&#8217;* he asks, while crediting the scientists with effective system integration.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence (MoD) claims that almost 70 per cent of the aircraft, including the tyres, tubes, brakes, part of avionics and airframe are indigenous. *British Aerospace were consultants to the development of LCA. *




India-US Defense Technology Cooperation identifies three 'Mission Areas' (i) Aircraft Technology, (ii) Third generation anti-tank systems and (iii) Instrumentation of test sites and manpower training. Under Aircraft Technology, there has been a substantial amount of cooperation and technology transfer for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) which is a major area of activity. An India -US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) is in place for monitoring the Technology Transfer between the US and India on the LCA.

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## chirag.s

*GUYS HOW IS THIS*



zavis2003 said:


> which Aircraft is Low capability Aircraft of fourth generation,in short term LCA of 4th Generation????????????????





Lockheed F-16 said:


> LCA is low capable aircraft, you're right.



sorry guys but i couldn't control it LCA = Low *Capability* Aircraft 

at least it is capable ive got something better

*JF-17= Junk Fighter 17 *

congrjulations for the sucessful and speedy induction of JUNK FIGHTER 

really we have lots to learn from you guys you are saving lots of SPACE in your JUNK YARDS by building THE ULTIMATE JUNK FIGHTER and sending it to air   and when IAF is not accepting the LOW CAPABILTY AIRCRAFT the PAF is accepting JUNK FIGHTER please learn something from the PLAAF they are smart they are exporting their junk to you guys and you are PAYING THEM 

*NO OFFENCE*

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## zombie:-)

hello 

what about radar integration any news ???? i herd weapons trials are going on hence the radar must be integrated

thank u


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## zombie:-)

chirag.s said:


> *GUYS HOW IS THIS*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry guys but i couldn't control it LCA = Low *Capability* Aircraft
> 
> at least it is capable ive got something better
> 
> *JF-17= Junk Fighter 17 *
> 
> congrjulations for the sucessful and speedy induction of JUNK FIGHTER
> 
> really we have lots to learn from you guys you are saving lots of SPACE in your JUNK YARDS by building THE ULTIMATE JUNK FIGHTER and sending it to air   and when IAF is not accepting the LOW CAPABILTY AIRCRAFT the PAF is accepting JUNK FIGHTER please learn something from the PLAAF they are smart they are exporting their junk to you guys and you are PAYING THEM
> 
> *NO OFFENCE*



i think it is a bit personal but it is good


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## zombie:-)

BATMAN said:


> EADS invitation was just a reality check.
> FYI, foriegn element is not limited to engine alone!
> Whole LCA is a product of foreign hand.
> 
> Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings
> 
> dude we never said LCA was 100&#37; INDIAN


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## LCA

BATMAN said:


> EADS invitation was just a reality check.
> FYI, foriegn element is not limited to engine alone!
> Whole LCA is a product of foreign hand.
> 
> Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings
> 
> 
> 
> India-US Defense Technology Cooperation identifies three 'Mission Areas' (i) Aircraft Technology, (ii) Third generation anti-tank systems and (iii) Instrumentation of test sites and manpower training. Under Aircraft Technology, there has been a substantial amount of cooperation and technology transfer for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) which is a major area of activity. An India -US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) is in place for monitoring the Technology Transfer between the US and India on the LCA.




Sir,please look around your world.
you find that no fighter in today's world made by a country single handidly.

F-35 is funded by more than half dozen countries.

Typhoon is built by 4 european nation.

Even J-10 chinese take help from israel and russia.

And all these countries have advance technologies in aviation.

So,there is nothing wrong in taking foreign help or consultancy services.

India never said that LCA is 100% indian , they only said that they are trying to increase indian component in LCA.

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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : Tejas crosses a milestone

Tejas crosses a milestone

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: In a milestone, a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) *Tejas took off from here and for the first time dropped live stores (bombs) at a firing range.*

The dropping of two 25-pounder bombs, with one striking the target and the other falling within the inner 25 yard circle, was undertaken by Prototype Vehicle-3 of the LCA programme.

*The successful dropping of the light, marker bombs will enable the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) &#8211; designers of the fly-by-wire LCA &#8211; to not only prove the working of the aircraft&#8217;s flight control software for weapon drops and aiming, but also take forward the LCA&#8217;s weaponisation programme.*

*ADA officials said the flight control system software had to recognise and adjust for the dropping and still maintain the highly unstable flying platform&#8217;s handling qualities.*

The software had to take into effect the added stores, asymmetric drops, increased sensitivity of the aircraft&#8217;s controls and still make sure that the movement of the aircraft&#8217;s centre of gravity was still well within limits.

Following this success, the ADA is planning to do as many similar sorties dropping both 25-pounder and 3-kg bombs over the next three days, analyse the results and then prepare for the next stage of the weaponisation programme.

The next stage of weapon trials will see the ADA and the Air Force taking the Tejas to Jamnagar in Gujarat, hopefully by the end of the month. Jamnagar has been chosen as its cross runways will allow the undertaking of both weapon and cross wind trials.

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## LCA

Awesome news man.

Our *paper plane* now dropping bombs.

That means in coming months we can see LCA firing A2A and A2G missile.

This time we are not going to miss the dead line.


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## nitesh

now I think the real fun will begin. Now most of the test points will start getting covered. Like asymmetric flying. Full weapon load testing. With drop tanks after dropping the fuel tank how it performs. But I think for IOC purpose there will be no IFR testing it will be done in FOC period.


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## LCA

hi nitesh

according to above article one of the bomb drop by LCA hit the target.

Is that mean radar get integrated with LCA ?

Do you have any idea about that?


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## nitesh

Nope radar will be in LSP3 it will soon be in air. Bombs can use laser designator. Most probably SIVA POD is integrated now. Or just dumb dropping.


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## nitesh

hmm too many tests happening now. Seems like things are falling in place 

5 test flights in one day !!
LCA-Tejas has completed 1018 Test Flights successfully. (05-Feb-09).

* LCA has completed 1018 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-298,PV1-182,PV2-108,PV3-122,LSP1-35,LSP2-40).
* 108th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 04th Feb 09.
* 121st & 122nd flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 04th Feb 09.
* 35th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 04th Feb 09.
* 40th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 04th Feb 09.

Flight Test News


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## Myth_buster_1

amazingly 



LCA said:


> Sir,please look around your world.
> you find that no fighter in today's world made by a country single handidly.
> 
> *F-35 is funded by more than half dozen countries.*



your post is already a answer. F-35 is only "FUNDED" "financually" and thats about it, no country is doing jack in development of F-35! 



> Typhoon is built by 4 european nation.


Those 4 nation are well capable of producing their own MRCA indigenous.



> India never said that LCA is 100&#37; indian , they only said that they are trying to increase indian component in LCA.



lol indian fanboys have been harping just about anything of LCA as indigenous!


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## nitesh

PC F 35 there is tier of partnership UK is tier 1 partner they are producing some parts for F 35.

Regarding LCA, there is a constant effort for making it 100&#37; local. May be it will not be achieved totally. But there is an effort in that direction.


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## LCA

PC said:


> amazingly
> 
> 
> 
> your own post is a answer to its self. F-35 is only "FUNDED" "financely" and thats about it, no country is doing jack in development of F-35!
> 
> 
> Those 4 nation are well capable of producing their own MRCA indigenous.
> 
> 
> 
> lol indian fanboys have been harping just about anything of LCA as indigenous!




Do you Know it is FUNDED to whom ? -- America the largest economy of the world.
And not only funded but also amercia take many inputs fron english companies in designing.
Engine is joint effort of GE and rolls roy(General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 )
Some of the weapon are from MBDA.


And if those 4 nation are capable of producing their own,then why they go for joint product?

and what wrong in that,if we are harping just anything of LCA as indigenous.
we never say that LCA is 100% indigenous.


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## aditya_friend

i agree . lca is not 100 % indigenous but we have developed some key technologies on our own (fbw system ,composites and so on ) . and look who is talking the one who has not even made a cycle back home .


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## Myth_buster_1

LCA said:


> Do you Know it is FUNDED to whom ? -- America the largest economy of the world.
> And not only funded but also amercia take many inputs fron english companies in designing.
> Engine is joint effort of GE and rolls roy(General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 )
> Some of the weapon are from MBDA.
> 
> 
> And if those 4 nation are capable of producing their own,then why they go for joint product?
> 
> and what wrong in that,if we are harping just anything of LCA as indigenous.
> we never say that LCA is 100&#37; indigenous.



i had my doughs but you proved to be the biggest idiot of defence.pk and a lot from bk. 
US version is indigenous and does not "take any inputs from english companies in designings" and only the british version is modified to their own needs. and tell me which MBDA armament US will use?


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## Myth_buster_1

aditya_friend said:


> i agree . lca is not 100 % indigenous but we have developed some key technologies on our own (fbw system ,composites and so on ) . and look who is talking the one who has not even made a cycle back home .



congratulations for "developing some key technologies on your own such as FBW and composites and so on". lol another  being from BK. 

Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the *fly-by-wire control*, avionics and engine *are not ours*, said Air Chief Marshal A Y Tipnis


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## aditya_friend

PC said:


> congratulations for "developing some key technologies on your own such as FBW and composites and so on". lol another  being from BK.
> 
> Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the *fly-by-wire control*, avionics and engine *are not ours*, said Air Chief Marshal A Y Tipnis



where did you learn this .


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## aditya_friend

aditya_friend said:


> where did you learn this .



there is absolutely no offence . if its true then its not good .


----------



## aditya_friend

PC said:


> congratulations for "developing some key technologies on your own such as FBW and composites and so on". lol another  being from BK.
> 
> Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the *fly-by-wire control*, avionics and engine *are not ours*, said Air Chief Marshal A Y Tipnis



source plz .


----------



## Myth_buster_1

aditya_friend said:


> there is absolutely no offence . if its true then its not good .



Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings

lol so you are being delusional?


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## aditya_friend

PC said:


> Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings
> 
> lol so you are being delusional?



you have broken my heart .


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## nitesh

PC what is the funda behind a 2001 news?


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## LCA

PC said:


> i had my doughs but you proved to be the biggest idiot of defence.pk and a lot from bk.
> US version is indigenous and does not "take any inputs from english companies in designings" and only the british version is modified to their own needs. and tell me which MBDA armament US will use?



Look .. who is talking ??????


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## nitesh

LiveFist

Update on LCA Tejas

The IAF will shortly place an order with HAL for eight LCA Tejas twin-seat trainers, powered by the current GE-F404-IN20 engine. Therefore, the force will operate a total of 28 fighters (including the first batch of 20 single-seaters) with the current engine, the one that is unsuitable for any follow-on fighters since it doesn't provide enough thrust. The first twenty fighters will begin delivery by 2011. But following this, the production line will lie vacant for upto 12 months for HAL to re-tool and reconfigure its facilities to produce the LCA with a new and more powerful engine (possible the Eurojet or another). The IAF's rationale is that it doesn't really need an initial tranche of trainers powered by an uprated engine. Therefore, HAL can use the idling time between the two engine configurations, to build eight trainers powered by the IN20 itself.


----------



## LCA

nitesh said:


> LiveFist
> 
> Update on LCA Tejas
> 
> The IAF will shortly place an order with HAL for eight LCA Tejas twin-seat trainers, powered by the current GE-F404-IN20 engine. Therefore, the force will operate a total of 28 fighters (including the first batch of 20 single-seaters) with the current engine, the one that is unsuitable for any follow-on fighters since it doesn't provide enough thrust. The first twenty fighters will begin delivery by 2011. But following this, the production line will lie vacant for upto 12 months for HAL to re-tool and reconfigure its facilities to produce the LCA with a new and more powerful engine (possible the Eurojet or another). The IAF's rationale is that it doesn't really need an initial tranche of trainers powered by an uprated engine. Therefore, HAL can use the idling time between the two engine configurations, to build eight trainers powered by the IN20 itself.



It's a very good move by IAF and HAL to keep the production line busy.


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> PC what is the funda behind a 2001 news?



be it 2001 or 1988, its part of your history! The fact still remains that LCA is not as indeginous as claimed by most of or all of indian military fanboys on internet those warriors from BK.


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## nitesh

PC said:


> be it 2001 or 1988, its part of your history! The fact still remains that LCA is not as indeginous as claimed by most of or all of indian military fanboys on internet those warriors from BK.



Uh what is your problem haan? Have they exploited you in some way or what? What is part of history? If you have some FACTS present it or don't brag with some 8 year old news item.


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## booo

PC said:


> be it 2001 or 1988, its part of your history! The fact still remains that LCA is not as indeginous as claimed by most of or all of indian military fanboys on internet those warriors from BK.



I think lca was supposed to be developed with help from lockheed martin but after the nuclear tests they pulled out and we had to make everything on our own. so, wrt that news item the statement was true but not now. for example india developed the fly-by-wire on its own unlike whats mentioned in that article. please wakeup


----------



## Myth_buster_1

booo said:


> I think lca was supposed to be developed with help from lockheed martin but after the nuclear tests they pulled out and we had to make everything on our own. so, wrt that news item the statement was true but not now. for example india developed the fly-by-wire on its own unlike whats mentioned in that article. please wakeup



tyical of uneducated delusional BK product! India tested Nukes in 1998 and this artical was written in 2001! so nice try lil fello! btw all sort of bans have been lifted from india. US is supplying just about anything india is asking for LCA the engine is the prime example.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> Uh what is your problem haan? Have they exploited you in some way or what? What is part of history? If you have some FACTS present it or don't brag with some 8 year old news item.



listen mate (Mod edit)! do i have to prove you the fact that the nazi lost WWII with 2009 articals but i can not post some 60 year old news because they are out dated? are you clearly a retard? The artical that i posted is infact of your rtd Air chief words!


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## zombie:-)

> Answer to a Press - Dr. Kota
> 
> Why did it take 16 long years for the first LCA flight to happen?
> 
> The last fighter we developed was the HF 24 Marut (Hindustan Fighter) in 1961. There was a gap of 40 years. In the area of fighter aircraft, we have to run if you want to stay where you are. When the LCA project came into being, we had to build facilities, train people, develop technologies, develop components, develop equipment, integrate the whole thing. And the technologies that we have deployed state- of-the-art. The amount of testing that we had to do was enormously high. Not only were the designers new, but the inspection team and airworthiness team also had to learn the technology. The test pilot also had to undergo the process of learning. The whole project had to be done from scratch.
> 
> Building of the F-22 aircraft began in 1980 and it flew first in 1997 - after 17 years. The Eurofighter was to make its maiden flight in 1990, but it flew in 1994. The UK, Germany, Italy and Spain have been involved with the EFA. Why is the media mum on this aspect? Western nations are continually working on prototypes and have more time, Considering their technology. As for the joint strike fighter (of the US)-it is only being test-flown and it is estimated that it will be ready in 2004. They still have to work on it. The joint strike fighter has been discussed for more than a decade - since 1982. In a complex programme, such as one involving aircraft, so many technologies are being developed - 15 years is not a long time. But moving ahead should be faster - the aircraft can enter into service in 2005 or 2007, but decisions are needed to enter production.
> 
> How do the other countries manage ?
> 
> The European fighter aircraft has been developed by four European countries - UK, Germany, Italy and France. They were to have their first flight in 1990, but they actually flew only in 1994. That means with four advanced nations working together, they took four years more than what they predicted. In the case of LCA, we planned to fly in December 1996, but we flew only in January 2001. About four years of delay. The Europeans did not have any US sanctions. And all these countries had a continuous stream of aircraft being developed. So I don't think the delay in the LCA's first flight is anything unusual. The US conceived the F-22 as early as 1980. The first prototype flew in 1997- after 17 years. It is not unusual for high technology programmes to take time.
> 
> What is the significance of the LCA ?
> 
> The LCA has been designed to replace the MiG series of aircraft. This is a very light aircraft, supersonic, multi-role and has very advanced technologies, comparable to the best available in the world today. *The LCA has indigenous content of more than 70 percent*. So there are huge job opportunities. Also, critical technologies such as advanced composites, digital fly-by-wire, the all-digital cockpit, digital avionics, utility management systems and a host of other technologies have been developed.
> 
> These technologies not only make the LCA an excellent fighter, but are available for all other programmes. The spin-offs are many. For example, more than 100 equipments developed for the LCA have already found their place in the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) project that has been sanctioned recently by the IAF to HAL. Our software is already being used for development of the composite parts for the development of the Airbus aircraft. More than 300 industries in India have participated. So it is not merely that an aircraft has been test flown, but the technologies and capabilities also are now ready. This is very important and critical for strategic and academic aspects of the country.



dr kota

*these are more than enough for your mudslinging questions*

there is something called as product design and as the product gets smaller lesser things u can stuff and keeping the functionality of the product to a respectable level becomes difficult .

for example ever tried building a mere scale model in 1:72 and 1:32 with the same detail 

one more example DO YOU KNOW THE CONTENTS OF THE CAR YOU ARE DRIVING AND THEIR ORIGIN HELL EVEN MERE CAR MANUFACTURING COMPANIES GIVE CONTRACTS TO COMPANIES WHICH SPECIALIZE IN THAT AREA SPEAK ABT FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

the advantages of the above process are 
1 u save time and manpower and manhours 
2 u get the best stuff available in the market 

why do not automobile companies manufacture their own tyres ,brakes headlamps,seats ,microprocessors ,displays.most of them have thair own engines and yes our *engine is failed only in providing the required thrust not in reliability*.we accept that ,even the Chinese couldn't build their own engine when their project on j-10 began before 1979 .


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## Myth_buster_1

"The LCA has indigenous content of more than 70 percent."

 care to tell us which 70% of the content are indian? lol what a lier this DR is. 

*An aircraft has three major components. An engine, airframe and avionics. The GE-F 404 engine is American, most avionics like radars, INGPS, electronic warfare equipment, radar altometre, the fly-by-wire system, ground-mapping system and other pilot-support system are all imported from Israel, France and Sweden. Even the airframe is not entirely Indian. The composite wings have been imported from Italy.*

and quickly tell me what all this 70% is all about or are you all fanboys gonna blindly swallow what ever info DRDO throw at you guys!


----------



## indiatech

Tejas crosses a milestone 

Ravi Sharma 

BANGALORE: In a milestone, a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas took off from here and for the first time dropped live stores (bombs) at a firing range. 

The dropping of two 25-pounder bombs, with one striking the target and the other falling within the inner 25 yard circle, was undertaken by Prototype Vehicle-3 of the LCA programme. 

The successful dropping of the light, marker bombs will enable the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)  designers of the fly-by-wire LCA  to not only prove the working of the aircrafts flight control software for weapon drops and aiming, but also take forward the LCAs weaponisation programme.

ADA officials said the flight control system software had to recognise and adjust for the dropping and still maintain the highly unstable flying platforms handling qualities. 

The software had to take into effect the added stores, asymmetric drops, increased sensitivity of the aircrafts controls and still make sure that the movement of the aircrafts centre of gravity was still well within limits. 

Following this success, the ADA is planning to do as many similar sorties dropping both 25-pounder and 3-kg bombs over the next three days, analyse the results and then prepare for the next stage of the weaponisation programme. 

The next stage of weapon trials will see the ADA and the Air Force taking the Tejas to Jamnagar in Gujarat, hopefully by the end of the month. Jamnagar has been chosen as its cross runways will allow the undertaking of both weapon and cross wind trials.


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## BATMAN

> ADA is expected to seek EADS assistance in increasing the"angle of attack" of the LCA


Can some body confirm this news is true? what more EADS would be doing?
What is the present declared angle of attack? why is it missing from Wiki?


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## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> Can some body confirm this news is true? what more EADS would be doing?
> What is the present declared angle of attack? why is it missing from Wiki?



BATMAN, there is a tender for consultancy purpose in test program. First Boeing was supposed to do the work but they wanted to sign an agreement that LCA should not be exported. Hence the deal fall through. Now EADS, Dassaut are in race to win the contract. News items suggest that EADS is selected for consultancy. 

The angle of attack is something in confusion check this 2005 news item (The LCA puzzle)

But in 2008 news items appeared that AoA is 17 degree and all. 

Quite a confusion on this point.

The winner of this contract will be helping the design engineers in widening the flight envelope. Like the recent test of bomb dropping.

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## nitesh

PC said:


> listen delusional hindu boy! do i have to prove you the fact that the nazi lost WWII with 2009 articals but i can not post some 60 year old news because they are out dated? are you clearly a retard? The artical that i posted is infact of your rtd Air chief words!



You running around with your usual rants. I am not a hindu. As usual you are far from facts. Don't mess up the things if you don't have any logic behind what ever you are saying. Don't post a 2001 article and run around saying it as FACT. Is it so difficult for you to understand or what?

If you don't have anything sensible to say then keep your mouth shut


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## aditya_friend

you yourself say that indian media is crap and then beleive this article 

An aircraft has three major components. An engine, airframe and avionics. The GE-F 404 engine is American, most avionics like radars, INGPS, electronic warfare equipment, radar altometre, the fly-by-wire system, ground-mapping system and other pilot-support system are all imported from Israel, France and Sweden. Even the airframe is not entirely Indian. The composite wings have been imported from Italy."

i also saw an video in which an indian journalist was criticizing jf-17 like hell but it is not that bad.


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## LCA

BATMAN said:


> Can some body confirm this news is true? what more EADS would be doing?
> What is the present declared angle of attack? why is it missing from Wiki?



This news article can help you.

European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com

*European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project*

*The US plane maker wanted an agreement that American nod would be sought for selling the jet to a third country*

K. Raghu

Bangalore: India plans to seek the help of European jet makers such as Dassault Aviation SA and Saab AB to accelerate the development of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft, replacing project consultant Boeing Co., a scientist involved in the project said.

The move comes after the US plane maker insisted that the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA, *sign a so-called end-user agreement that would require India to seek US permission to export the aircraft to a third country.*

Plane dispute: Tejas aircraft in flight. ADA had sought Boeings help in hastening the planes development for initial certification by 2010, the deadline for achieving the standards set by the Indian Air Force.

US law prohibits the export without its permission of high-technology equipment developed using American consulting partners or components.
*We have already done 99% of the job, the help (we sought) is just for the remaining 1%, *said a senior scientist at ADA, the military plane design agency of the Defence Research and Development Organisation.
The scientist, who did not want to be named because of the sensitive nature of the project, said the agency was yet to decide on a replacement for Boeing.

ADA sought Boeings help in speeding up the aircraft development for initial certification by 2010, the deadline for achieving the standards set by the Indian Air Force (IAF). *Crucial to this is the Tejas achieving an angle of attack, or AoA, of 24 degree, a measure to prove the agility of the jet at extreme limits of performance.*

*So far, Tejas has achieved basic standards set by IAF such as reaching 15km in altitude, manoeuvres of 6 g, or six times that of Gravity, speed of Mach 1.6, or 1.6 times the speed of sound, and an AoA of 22 degrees.*

Tejas, Indias first homegrown fighter in decades, is a single-engine supersonic fighter that has delta wings and no tail, and uses fly-by-wire technology that enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through on-board computers. Because of the change in altitude (at 24 degree AoA), it could have an effect on the aircraft characteristics, the ADA scientist said.
Boeing, which makes military planes such as F-15, F/A-18 and F-22 Raptor, said it continues to be in talks with ADA on the development of Tejas, within the prescriptions of US policy.
Those requirements are set by the US government, in discussions with the government of India and ADA. So any question on export permissions is best directed to the US government, said Brian Nelson, spokesman for India at Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, the plane makers military wing.
These issues will (get) ironed out, given the kind of (military and political) engagements between the two countries, said Ratan Shrivastava, director for aerospace and defence at the India offices of research firm Frost and Sullivan.
Boeing is also in the race for the countrys largest military plane contract of 126 fighter jets that is worth at least Rs42,000 crore, with its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
The Hindu reported first on 4 August that Boeing was delaying the Tejas development citing US laws.
This is the second demand in recent times by a US firm that an Indian agency sign the end-user agreement.
On 25 July, Mint reported that the Indian Space Research Organisation would on its own upgrade a semiconductor lab in Chandigarh after International Business Machines Corp. declined, citing concern that the space agency may use the chips designed there to guide rockets and satellites for the military.


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## ejaz007

*Tejas crosses a milestone *
Ravi Sharma 


BANGALORE: In a milestone, a Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas took off from here and for the first time dropped live stores (bombs) at a firing range. 

The dropping of two 25-pounder bombs, with one striking the target and the other falling within the inner 25 yard circle, was undertaken by Prototype Vehicle-3 of the LCA programme. 

The successful dropping of the light, marker bombs will enable the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)  designers of the fly-by-wire LCA  to not only prove the working of the aircrafts flight control software for weapon drops and aiming, but also take forward the LCAs weaponisation programme.

ADA officials said the flight control system software had to recognise and adjust for the dropping and still maintain the highly unstable flying platforms handling qualities. 

The software had to take into effect the added stores, asymmetric drops, increased sensitivity of the aircrafts controls and still make sure that the movement of the aircrafts centre of gravity was still well within limits. 

Following this success, the ADA is planning to do as many similar sorties dropping both 25-pounder and 3-kg bombs over the next three days, analyse the results and then prepare for the next stage of the weaponisation programme. 

The next stage of weapon trials will see the ADA and the Air Force taking the Tejas to Jamnagar in Gujarat, hopefully by the end of the month. Jamnagar has been chosen as its cross runways will allow the undertaking of both weapon and cross wind trials. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## macintosh

ADA to equip Light Combat Aircraft with more powerful engines 

New Delhi, Feb 06: With DRDO still looking for partners to develop the indigenous fighter aircraft engine 'Kaveri', Aeronautical Development Agency has decided to equip the Light Combat Aircraft Mark II version with more powerful engines after procuring them from global manufacturers. 

"We are looking to procure either the GE-414 from US or European consortium Eurojet's EJ 200 to fly with the LCA Mk II version," Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director P Subrahmanyam told reporters. 

LCA's Mk II version is expected to join the IAF in 2014 after the initial two squadrons in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration are inducted. 

DRDO has shortlisted these two engines after going through offers from various global manufacturers. 

"Request for Proposals (RFP) is just about to go out and very soon it would be floated," the ADA Director said. The present GE 404-IN 20 engine, he said, was the interim solution as a power-plant for the LCA. 

"Since the beginning, we knew that the present engine would be the interim solution as it is adequate for the IOC aircraft. We are looking to get the higher derivatives of GE-414 or EJ-200," he said, adding "we told them (GE and Eurojet) that whatever you have on your drawing boards, we will go ahead with that". 

GE-414 is the power-plant for Boeing's F/A-18 E/F and the EJ 200 is fitted on the Eurofighter Typhoon. Both these aircraft are in race for IAF's over USD 10 billion 126 multi-role combat aircraft deal. 

On seeking higher derivative of these engines, he said, "If you get a choice between something that is existing and something which is coming in next two to three years and has the highest level of technology, why should we settle down for an existing engine? We will go for what we will get in next three years time." 

He said the DRDO wanted the "latest" technology and equipment for the LCA's more lethal version. 

Subrahmanyam said apart from the engine technology, ADA will make sure that other equipment and systems on the LCA Mk II are latest. "The open system architecture of the LCA will help us to incorporate and integrate the latest technological advancements in the existing aircraft," he said. 

He said ADA has plans of equipping the aircraft with latest avionics and electronic warfare systems so that when it joins the IAF, its technology remains contemporary. 

DRDO is hoping to deliver the aircraft to the IAF in IOC configuration by December 2010. IAF will have seven squadrons of the indigenous aircraft of which the first two would be in IOC configuration and the rest would be the Mk II versions.


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## LCA

This may be the 3 Kg bomb for LCA in futre testing.

Ordnance Factory Board


*BOMB 3 KG PRACTICE*

PRINT DOCUMENT
ROLE :
These bombs are used by the Air Force for Practice purposes. The Pilots drops these bombs after removing the safety pin from a flying aircraft to bombard a pre-determined target.

FUNCTION :
It emits a flash and gives out dense orange smoke. The assembly consists of cartridge smoke, Nose assembly, Aluminium body and Safety pin.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS :
Estimated mass 3.5 Kgs
Net explosive content 206 gm
Length 387 mm (nominal)
Body diameter 76.2 ± 0.2 mm
Diameter O D across tail fins 153 ± 1.2 mm
Smoke visibility 6 sec (min)
Shelf life 7.5 years

ADVANTAGES :

The packed ammunition is fit for air drop and sea worthy transportation. This ammunition can be used in any terrain including desert, snow bound and moist land.

QUALITY :
Quality Assurance system on the product is based in accordance with ISO standard ISO-9001, IS-2500/BS-6000 and related specn. JSS/BIS/IND/(ME) and store specn./Drawing.

SAFETY :
Design ensures total safety during handling, storage and transportation.

RELIABILITY :

The ammunition has an overall reliability of 97.5%.

PACKING :
8 Nos of Bombs are paced in steel box with wooden fitments to avoid rattling.

STOWAGE DIMENSIONS :
Packing box size: 645.20 mm x 447.04 mm x 261.60 mm
Gross weight: 47 Kgs package (8 Nos. of Bomb)

STORAGE CLASSIFICATION :
Compatibility G
Hazard Division 1.2
Fire fighting 2


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## Contrarian

LM was supposed to design the FBW among numerous other things for LCA. But because of sanctions, they could not.

AFAIK, the FBW for LCA was also tested by LM on another plane.

India has since had to develop all these things inhouse. That article is old, and reflected the view and the progress till that time. A lot of developments have happened since then. You would do well to read up on those.


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## aditya_friend

malaymishra123 said:


> LM was supposed to design the FBW among numerous other things for LCA. But because of sanctions, they could not.
> 
> AFAIK, the FBW for LCA was also tested by LM on another plane.
> 
> India has since had to develop all these things inhouse. That article is old, and reflected the view and the progress till that time. A lot of developments have happened since then. You would do well to read up on those.



exactly . wake up and smell the ashes .!


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## aditya_friend

lca block 2 will be even better than j-10 although both the jets are of different classes .


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## Nihat

aditya_friend said:


> lca block 2 will be even better than j-10 although both the jets are of different classes .



can you back up that statement with any technical analysis or is it just a shot in the air , because we know the J-10 but very little about LCA mk 2.


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## aditya_friend

Nihat said:


> can you back up that statement with any technical analysis or is it just a shot in the air , because we know the J-10 but very little about LCA mk 2.



well 50% its shot in the air but blck 2 will be having aesa radar and a fn-414 ge . besides its visually more sleathier .


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## nitesh

malaymishra123 said:


> LM was supposed to design the FBW among numerous other things for LCA. But because of sanctions, they could not.
> 
> AFAIK, the FBW for LCA was also tested by LM on another plane.
> 
> India has since had to develop all these things inhouse. That article is old, and reflected the view and the progress till that time. A lot of developments have happened since then. You would do well to read up on those.



Malay the whole coding is done in house. LM where consultants but the decision how it will function is taken by us only like LCA FBW is a fixed gain software the decision is taken by us only not LM and yes it has been tested on the same plane which was used to test the software for F 16. But this is all pre 1998.

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## nitesh

domain-b.com : AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme is over the hump - from 2nd generation to 4+

AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme is over the hump - from 2nd generation to 4+ news 
06 February 2009

From 1983, when an indigenous fighter development programme was launched with an attempt to develop second generation technologies, to 2008 when the programme has successfully developed 4+ generation technologies the LCA Tejas has come a long way, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam.

*What are the major state-of-the-art aircraft technologies used on the LCA?*

To begin with, I'd like to take you back to 1983 when the programme began with the attempt to develop second generation technologies. The whole world then was developing fourth generation technologies. *There was a gap of almost two generations of technologies. This is what we have overcome with this particular LCA programme.*
*
When we talk about state-of-art technologies in the LCA, we are talking about state-of-the-art technologies related to unstable aerodynamics based aircraft, where the basic airframe is unstable. We have to make it stable by what we call instant fly-by-wire flight control systems, which is also a unique technology - we are only the fourth or fifth country in the world to have developed this digital technology.*

*Another technology that has been developed for the programme is called digital avionics technology, or a glass cockpit. 
*
*Yet another technology where we have really bridged the gap is in the area of composites.*

*I have mentioned these four state-of-the-art technologies because when we started the programme many foreign consultants on the programme said this country cannot catch up with these technologies at this point and suggested we go back to older technologies.* It was then that Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, who was the director general of the organisation, who said no. He told us he had confidence in us and that we could go ahead with developing these technologies.

We did that and today we have arrived - these technologies are now in use with the two Technology Demonstrator aircraft - TD1 and TD2.

*We have gone over the hump and today we are at the 4+ generation of technologies. In these particular aircraft all electronic and mechanical systems are controlled by computers.*

Even today we don't have such functional systems as digital avionics, glass cockpit and other related technologies in the Indian Air Force.

*Another state-of-the-art feature in these technologies is that all the microprocessors used in our systems are only 12-16 months old - since we have deployed the open system architecture. With such a concept we can catch up with any evolution in electronics and keep on changing the hardware, as with computers.*

So all the microprocessors used in the system are only 12-16 months old . That's the kind of currency we have got.

All sensors used in our aircraft are state-of-the-art - whether it is the navigation systems, the helmet mounted system, or what we call the day-night attack sensor. If you look at the Indian Air force, even they have picked up the system only a year or so ago.

*Most of the things we use, even the materials, are state-of-the-art and in terms of technology this aircraft is going to be current even after 10 years.*

*What are the derivatives of LCA?*

Seeing the performance of the Technology Demonstrators the Indian Navy and air force have now gained confidence in the aircraft &#8211; a confidence that they can move on to higher derivatives of the aircraft.

First, in March 2003, the Navy came forward with an order for a naval variant of the aircraft and decided to fund it.

Subsequently, the air force, realising that there was inadequacy of thrust in the aircraft, asked for a higher derivative of the aircraft with a new engine in the 90 tonnes class. This will be a Mark 2 version of the aircraft and will boast of new electronic warfare tools, reduced weight and improved performance.

The navy has also asked for a Mark 2 variant which will use a very small distance for take off and landing from an aircraft carrier. It will land with an arrestor hook. So, *almost four new derivatives are planned &#8211; the air force and naval variants, the air force fighter trainer,the navy fighter trainer and Mk 2 versions of these.*

*This shows the confidence with which the user is placing orders for these derivatives.*

Another very important point is that the users are funding the development of these derivatives. This shows we now have a lot of business, which is taking place with user participation. 

*What are the future programmes planned?*

As I said earlier, when we began the programme we were dealing with second generation technologies. Now we have jumped to fourth generation technologies. If you don't have future programmes planned, and stay where you are, you will only be widening the technology gap with the rest of the world. If you wish to progress further, one way is to keep developing technologies. Keeping this in mind we now have a separate programme for technology development.

But unless technologies are packaged and put on the aircraft they will not mature. So we are working on programmes like the medium combat aircraft. So far we were quite hesitant whether the user will require such technology. But they have communicated that they need a medium combat aircraft, in the medium weight class, in which platform they have asked us to incorporate next generation fighter technologies.

So we have conceptual studies for the next generation fighter aircraft with medium weight - of around 20 tonnes. The technologies which will go into that are futuristic technologies, like stealth. The aircraft should not be visible. It will have radar cross section reduction, infrared reduction. It will have super cruise technology, and also, this kind of an aircraft will have all weapons concealed in the airframe itself - all the conformal weapons.

In the case of avionics we have visualised that unless we take a quantum jump and understand what is happening in the rest of the world we will again be widening the gap.

So we have decided to work on integrated modular architecture of the weapons and avionics system. That architecture will be built into this.

These are some of the technologies on which we are currently working .

*What is the relevance of this seminar for your future technology requirement?*

The seminar is very relevant. As I have pointed out we are now working on future technologies and programmes -so depending on what we need, and what we understand from our interactions with our users, we have to conceptualize what our future programmes and technologies are going to be like.

Using interaction opportunities with experts from the rest of the world we intend to understand what they are contemplating... here we will find ourselves hobnobbing with all the experts who are coming eg: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Embraer - you name it and all the companies are coming. Based on our interactions and one-on-one discussions with them we will try and figure out what future technologies they are contemplating.

As one of my colleagues said today the rest of the world has realised that India is a force to reckon with. Earlier, they would never have partnered with us but today they want us to be partners. They are ready to share information. Through this sharing of information we will realise if the technologies we are contemplating for development are contemporaneous are not.

What kind of aircraft to make ...what kind of unmanned aircraft we should make, what kind of technologies we have to put into these aircrafts - all this visibility will come only from a seminar of this nature.

We have also made sure that the people who come, the topics we cover are of such a spectrum - that we get to know if the technologies that we intend to develop are the right technologies.

We would also like to understand their approach with such programmes, their programme management techniques which will help us make our plans perfect.

*In what way would co-operation with foreign agencies or companies benefit the LCA programme?*

*Since this our first time we are very conservative when it comes to designing and developing this aircraft. We wish to avoid failure at any cost. Technically, our aircraft weight is1.5 tonnes extra &#8211; because of our conservative design the weight is 500 kg extra.*

*If we had a foreign consultant on this project -someone who has gone through the same processes he doesn't have to do anything for us but tell us simply, where we could possibly curtail the weight of the aircraft. We would be prepared to improve our design. In other words, a large number of design iterations which will be required to reach perfection would be cut short because that consultant has already gone through similar experience.*

*Another thing is with regard to flight testing - the number of flight tests that we do is more than is required. This is something even the foreign vendors are saying. They know the optimal size of the testing that we need to do. Most of the companies have been in the industry for the last 50-60 years and have made three to four generations of aircraft. These are things they have already done and we have not.*

The inputs we take from them is intellectual and not related to hardware or software. We will tell them what we intend to do - their job will be to tell us to achieve meaningful reductions in time and energy.

With such consultancy the number of design iterations we are going to do is likely to reduce - the number of flight tests we are going to do is also going to reduce.

*If we reduce flight testing time by, say, six month we will achieve savings of nearly Rs1000 crore. So whatever small amount we will pay them for consultancy is meant basically for them to tell us whether we are on the right track, or not.*

*There is going to be no hardware or software support.*

This is the way ahead for our future programmes where foreign collaboration will take place - we have now come to the four and a half generation level but when we contemplate taking on fifth generation fighter aircraft technologies benefits are expected to be substantial.

This is the purpose of the collaboration, which we are contemplating for the existing LCA programme, as well as for future fifth generation fighter programmes. This is the advice given to us by our higher management - do some kind of consultancy or participation programme so that partners also invest resources and result is optimal in terms of time and cost.

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## nitesh

some info on kaveri front

http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/2009/jan09.pdf


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## nitesh

Five Tejas Aircraft (Light Combat Aircraft) led by Air Cmde Rohit Varma, VM, Project Director (Flight Test), National Flight Test Centre &#8211; Aeronautical Development Agency carried out a flypast at Bangalore Airport (HAL) today (February 6, 2009) prelude towards the Aero India Inauguration Ceremony to be held on February 11, 2009. The mission, flown by all test pilots of the National Flight Test Centre, combined flight test profiles for the individual Tejas aircraft with a coordinated rehearsal for the Aero India fly-past.
LiveFist: Photo: 5 LCA formation flight

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## nitesh

Broadsword: The King is dead.... long live the King!

Sunday, 8 February 2009
The King is dead.... long live the King! 





TD1 photograph





To the left is a photograph of the first Tejas (TD-1) being prepared for burial. All essential and salvageable parts are being recovered from the (now somewhat battered) aircraft, before it moves to its final resting place in some museum or headquarters.

But as the earlier LCAs retire, more are on the way! The second photograph (above, right) shows the fuselage jig in a hangar in HAL on which the first components of LSP-7 have started being assembled. Incidentally, LSP-6 is in an advanced stage of assembly.

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## nitesh

moved to the aero india thread


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## tyagi

nitesh said:


>



dude this pic is of mirage . engine air-intake are above the wings


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## nitesh

test phase is gaining momentum

(09-Feb-09)Tejas-LCA

LCA-Tejas has completed 1030 Test Flights successfully. (09-Feb-09).

* LCA has completed 1030 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-300,PV1-183,PV2-111,PV3-123,LSP1-38,LSP2-42).
* 38th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 08th Feb 09.


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## zombie:-)

why does lca use a conformally mounted GsH-23L twin pac gun?

any answers


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## indiatech

HAL, Bangalore
11th Feb 09
Ajai Shukla


At 3 p.m. on 7th Feb 09, it was all systems go at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in Bangalore, the organisation that is developing Indias Light Combat Aircraft. I sat by the runway, watching two Tejas fighters, as the LCA is named, carrying out pre-flight checks before leaving for a crucial mission. After over 1000 hours of test flights over several years, the Tejas was checking out its teeth and claws by dropping bombs on a ground target. For the first time I was looking at a Tejas which had, other than its dummy R-73 missile and fuel pods, bomb pods as well. (see photograph)



Three days earlier, the first bombing run had been made; this test was to validate another method of bomb delivery.



Group Captain R Tyagi, in the lead Tejas, was to fly several hundred kilometres to a live range and deliver the bombs on a ground target. The tarmac outside his air-conditioned cockpit was blistering, as his onboard health-monitoring systems conducted self-checks, a crucial six-minute operation to ensure that his engines, controls and electronics were functioning normally. I could see the flaps and control surfaces lifting and dropping; all of this was a part of the testing process. 



Just metres away, naval test pilot Captain Jaideep Maolankar, sat in another Tejas fighter, carrying out the same checks on his aircraft. Jaideep would perform the role of chase aircraft, flying alongside Tyagis aircraft and visually observing every step of the mission. In addition, a high-speed camera was tracking Tyagis bomb pod, clicking hundreds of frames every second.



With a surprising lack of fuss, the two aircraft revved up their engines and taxied out to the runway. I put my hands over my ears as the fighter engines roared into a crescendo and both aircraft took off, first Tyagi and then Maolankar in quick succession, banking to the right and then quickly out of sight.



The pilots were now physically alone in their cockpits, but they had lots of company over the radio. At the end of the runway was the high-security Telemetry Centre of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), tracking every moment of the mission. Each aircraft, from the time it started up, was being monitored in detail, the data transmitting live from the aircraft over a high-speed data link. Eleven critical aircraft systems, such as the fuel system, hydraulics and flight controls, were being watched by eleven engineers, each responsible for one particular system. In addition, a senior flight test engineer, designated the Test Director, oversaw each of the two aircraft; beside each Test Director sat another test pilot, called the Safety Pilot, continuously monitored what the aircraft pilot was seeing through his Head-Up Display (HUD). Anything going wrong and the Test Director would alert the pilot in his aircraft. In a serious emergency, he made the split second decisions that could spell life or death. 



Its a bit like Formula One racing, explained Wing Commander Aslam Khan, the Test Director. The driver, or in this case the pilot, is concentrating too hard on his mission to worry about how the aircraft systems are doing, or about what is happening outside. So we watch those parameters and tell the pilot over radio.



As the two Tejas aircraft approached the bombing range, the Telemetry Centre cleared Group Captain Tyagi to release his weapons. Flying just 70 metres away, Captain Maolankar watched carefully as Tyagis bombs were released; it was easy for him to see the white-coloured bombs as they headed down towards the target. Back at the Telemetry Centre, they replayed the live footage from the high-speed camera to check that the bombs had been released cleanly. I could see that they had.



The data --- including that relayed from ground cameras near the target --- would be examined in detail over days, but for now it was a successful test; the aircraft headed back to base. One more phase of the LCA test flight programme was proceeding smoothly.



The NTFC is reputed to be amongst the best test flight centres in the world. So far, not a single accident has marred the LCA programme, a perfect record compared to fighter development programmes in most other countries. In the Gripen programme, two aircraft went down in the first year of testing. In the F-104 programme in the US, 13-14 test pilots were killed in just two years of testing. (The aircraft was dubbed the widow maker.



This centre has been set up entirely indigenously, explains Air Commodore Rohit Varma, who heads the LCA flight testing. Also, unlike other countries where test pilots are retired airmen, our test pilots are all serving pilots, bringing in contemporary experience of our operating environment.



Amongst the ADAs five test pilots (that I had the pleasure of having lunch with a delicious meal!) were officers who had recently commanded a Su-30MKI squadron; a Harrier squadron; a MiG-21 squadron and a fighter base. All top guns, fresh from the field. Clearly user input counts for something!!

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## indiatech

Comprehensive video of LCA and its recent developments.

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## ejaz007

*Aero India 2009: Eurojet Turbo to Showcase EJ200 Engine; Kaveri Engine Alternative?*

Dated 10/2/2009

EUROJET Turbo GmbH, the leading European military engine consortium, will be exhibiting the EJ200 engine at the Aero India Air Show 2009. Visitors to the Eurofighter stand (Hall C, No. 7) will have the opportunity to view the advanced technology of the EJ200 engine, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon, and take a look inside the engine through an interactive engine monitor.

EUROJET is contracted to produce more than 1,500 EJ200 engines to power a total of 707 Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role combat aircraft ordered by six nations. The fleet of over 400 engines in service with Eurofighter Typhoon fleets operated by the Air Forces of Germany, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain and Austria had amassed over 100,000 Engine Flying Hours at the end of 2008.

The EJ200 is also a potential alternative powerplant for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). An exhaustive feasibility study was conducted by the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in 2008, in which the suitability of the EJ200 engine for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft was confirmed and EUROJET was selected to be a recipient of the respective Request for Proposal (RFP) for the LCA. EUROJET is now in anticipation of this RFP to offer the EJ200 for the LCA.

EUROJET industries represent over 40 years of successful multi-national collabo*ration in the aerospace defense business.

Aero India 2009: Eurojet Turbo to Showcase EJ200 Engine; Kaveri Engine Alternative? | India Defence


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## nitesh

The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle

&#8216;Tejas&#8217; removes all doubts


The Light Combat aircraft fly during the inauguration of the Aero India 2009 in Bangalore.

BANGALORE: A quarter of a century after the project was conceived and being dubbed &#8220;as more trouble than its worth&#8221;, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) &#8216;Tejas&#8217; on Wednesday proved the theory that there is indeed light at the end of the tunnel, right.

The LCA, on the inaugural day of Aero India 2009, put up a flawless flight display and *performed &#8220;neverseen- before&#8221; manoeuvres*, which drew applause.

The take-off LCA from the Air Force Station Yelahanka tarmac was like any of 1,000-odd its has done since its maiden flight on January 4, 2001, but what was in store for the next 10 minutes showed the progress of not just the LCA project, but the indegenisation of India&#8217;s defence programme.

*The LCA showed the capability of the aircraft and put any doubts to rest.*

After viewing its performance, an excited Defence Minister A K Antony praised the show put up by the all those involved in the project.

&#8220;In the last 10 years, there has been a lot of noise made about the project about and why India is still continuing its experiments. Now I have hope that we can induct it to the IAF as the performance today by the LCA was the most exciting event of the day,&#8221; he said.


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## indiatech

EADS plans to ride the LCA into Indian market

Aero India 09, Yelahanka, Bangalore

Business Standard, 12th February 09


At the opening of the Aero India 09 defence exposition today, Defence Minister AK Antony clearly enjoyed what must have seemed like a wild-west style shootout. One after another, four contenders for India&#8217;s purchase of 126 medium fighters --- the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F/A-18, the F-16 and the MiG-35 --- took to the skies in a fiesta of aerobatics clearly aimed at impressing the decision-makers who must decide which aircraft will win the $12 billion contract.



But the performance that evoked Mr Antony&#8217;s praise was that of the Indian-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Although more cautious than the all-out performances of the established fighters, the Tejas went far beyond anything it had ever displayed before, surprising the spectators with steep climbs, an inverted pass, high-gravity turns and loops.



Addressing the press, Mr Antony remarked, &#8220;I was very excited to see the LCA. After many years we could see the LCA doing manoeuvres&#8230; I was excited to see the Indian-made LCA in Indian skies.&#8221;



But even amidst success, the Tejas LCA is struggling to overcome major development hurdles. Its maker, Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has taken the crucial decision to bring in a design consultant, a global aerospace major that would assist HAL to overcome persistent design glitches that dog the LCA, including fuel distribution, uneven braking, flight controls, environment controls and testing. And while US-based Boeing has declined to supply such know-how, German-Spanish consortium, EADS, one of the makers of the Eurofighter, has aggressively pursued the consultancy as a way of flying into the Indian market.



In multiple interviews with senior Indian and EADS officials who requested anonymity, Business Standard has pieced together the EADS strategy. The company has decided to supply India with high technology for Indian products that are not directly competing with an EADS product. The Tejas is not in the same category as the heavier Eurofighter.



Having established its presence in the Tejas programme, EADS is confident that it would be well positioned to get its Eurojet EJ200 engine accepted for the Tejas. India is currently deciding between the EJ200 and the GE-414 engine for powering future squadrons of the Tejas.



And EADS believes that winning the contract for the EJ200 engine, and producing it in India, would position it perfectly for the lucrative medium fighter contract; twin EJ200 engines power the Eurofighter.



While willing to part with the technology assistance needed to get the LCA over its hump, EADS worries about the possibility of eventually being held responsible for a possible failure in the Tejas development.



&#8220;Let&#8217;s be clear that we are not underwriting the LCA programme&#8221;, says a senior European official related with the contract. Another likens EADS&#8217;s role to helping someone in a dark room turn on the light switch. But EADS will do no more than indicate the direction of the switch.



The German and Spanish governments have already permitted EADS to part with the technology needed for the Tejas programme; the US government, in contrast, imposed stringent restrictions on Boeing. Explains a senior EADS official, &#8220;If we don&#8217;t supply technology, India will develop it anyway, perhaps with some delay. So it is better for us to establish our presence here, partner India in the Tejas, and perhaps even market it together.&#8221;



Attached Pic: The fourth of the Limited Series Production (LSP) run, nearing completion in a hangar in HAL, Bangalore


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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> Lets be clear that we are not underwriting the LCA programme, says a senior European official related with the contract. Another likens EADSs role to helping someone in a dark room turn on the light switch. But EADS will do no more than indicate the direction of the switch.


So this clearly indicates where exactly EADS will come in to play, with there experience in developing fighters before they will help in opening the flight envelope faster.



> The German and Spanish governments have already permitted EADS to part with the technology needed for the Tejas programme; the US government, in contrast, imposed stringent restrictions on Boeing. Explains a senior EADS official, *If we dont supply technology, India will develop it anyway, perhaps with some delay. So it is better for us to establish our presence here, partner India in the Tejas, and perhaps even market it together.*



Now this is good so they realized that restrictions are futile


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## zombie:-)

indiatech said:


> Attached Pic: The fourth of the Limited Series Production (LSP) run, nearing completion in a hangar in HAL, Bangalore



mate its old here is somethin new 







check it out pilots conducting taxi trials and pre flight checks co this baby might take to the skies sooner than you thought


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## LCA

Some details about Elta-2052 AESA radar for LCA

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd.

GENERAL:

The EL/M-2052 is an advanced Airborne Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air-to-air superiority and advanced strike missions. The FCR is based on fully solid-state active phase array technology. *This new technology enables the radar to achieve a longer detection range, high mission reliability and a multi-target tracking capability of up to 64 targets. * The EL/M-2052 radar incorporates ELTAs decades of field-proven experience with real operational feedback from Israeli Air Force combat pilots.

The EL/M-2052 radar introduces new dimensions to the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea operation modes of the aircraft. In the Air-to-Air mode, the radar enables a very long-range multi targets detection and enables several simultaneous weapon deliveries in combat engagements. In Air-to-Ground missions, the radar provides very high resolution mapping (SAR), surface moving target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging. In Air-to-Sea missions the radar provides long-range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities (RS, ISAR).

FEATURES:

Pulse Doppler, all aspect, look-down shoot-down capabilities
Solid-State, Active Phased Array technology
Simultaneous multi-targets tracking and engaging.
Simultaneous multi-mode operation
High ECM immunity
Ultra-low side-lobe antenna
Two axes monopulse guard channel
Flexible interfaces and growth potential.
Modular hardware and software
Spare memory and computing power
High mission reliability (built with redundancy)

MODES:

Air-to-Air:

Multi-target detection and tracking
Multi-target ACM
High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground:

High resolution mapping (SAR Mode) 
AGR  Air-to-Ground Ranging
RBM  Real Beam Map
DBS  Doppler Beam Sharpening
GMTI on RBM, DBS, SAR
GMTT on RBM, DBS, SAR
Beacon
Weather

Air-to-Sea:

Sea search and multi target tracking 
RS and ISAR classification modes



PHYSICAL CHARATERSTICS:

Weight : 130-180 Kg. , depending on antenna size

Power : 4-10 KVA. , depending on antenna size


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## LCA

Any body know the weight of MMR????


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## nitesh

AERO INDIA: India unveils plans for LCA 'Mark 2'

AERO INDIA: India unveils plans for LCA 'Mark 2'

By Siva Govindasamy

India plans to begin work on an upgraded version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, with industry aiming to start deliveries of these "Mark II" aircraft after the first 40 have been manufactured.

"The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter. "There are upgrades down the line in every global fighter programme and that is the case with the Tejas as well."

He adds that HAL will deliver 40 LCAs to the Indian Air Force in the Mark I configuration *- 20 in the fighter configuration and 20 in the trainer configuration* . The IAF is expected to eventually order up to 220 LCAs and the Indian navy another 20, and the remaining aircraft will be in the Mark II configuration.

A naval version of the LCA will fly within a year, although this version of the aircraft still faces numerous challenges, says Baweja.

The Tejas, which was developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, has been in the works for more than a decade. It has faced several delays due to problems with the aircraft's design and the development of an indigenous engine. The IAF refused to commit to the LCA until 2003, and has only ordered 20 due to worries about the aircraft's capabilities. Over 1,000 test flights have now been completed on the six prototypes, and the ADA has decided to buy an international engine, most likely the General Electric GE-F414, to power the fighter.


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## nitesh

The Statesman

*Heavy weapon testing*

The indigenously made light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas which is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by next year or early 2011 would be *carrying out heavy weapon testing immediately after the ongoing 7th edition of AeroIndia* show here .
We would be carrying out heavy weapon testing immediately after this AeroIndia show and we *would be carrying 1000 lb bombs*, Group Captain N Tiwari who has been flying these aircraft at the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) told The Statesman.
The successful display of the LCA at the air show encouraged the defence minister, Mr AK Antony, and the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major, to be confident that the fighter aircraft would be inducted into the IAF at a time when it is planning to purchase 126 combat aircraft for which trials are to begin by April.
*We had started weapon testing two years back and we have just started air to ground tests*, said Group Captain Tiwari who is at the airshow with his team which had tested the Tejas fighter in both hot and cold weather conditions.
*The hot weather trials were held at the Air Force Station (AFS) at Nagpur last year while the sea level trials were conducted at INS Rajali, Arakkonam and Close Combat Missile (CCM) firing at INS Hansa*, Goa. 
On the *test flight of the Tejas at Leh* which he had undertaken, Group Captain Tiwari said, *There was no major problem and everything looked better than planned. We were very worried whether the aircraft would start at the high altitude but there was no problem. We left it overnight in Leh and everything was fine though the temperature was between -14 degrees Celsius and -16 degrees Celsius and the altitude was 10,300 feet. It took us two days for acclimatisation and only on the third day could be carry out the test flight.*
Elaborating on the testing, he said, All our performance targets were met easily. It was more an evaluation of the systems ~ that was the basic intent of the exercise.
On the aircrafts ability to cope with hot weather conditions, he said there too we had no problems. *Despite the heat with the temperature touching nearly 45 degrees Celsius, the cockpit remained cool*.
*On night flying, he said the aircraft has completed the first phase* which was done here and the final phase would be undertaken soon.


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## LCA

yeah ..... ,it had been said that MMR integration with LCA is done by March.

so,this time definitely firing weapons with radar.


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## zeus

Here come MCA aka NGFA Wind tunnel Models


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## indiatech

knightrider1991 said:


> looks just gr8
> does anyone know when will it fly ?



well, given to Tatas it might be on air in 5 years. Given to DRDO , can't say.


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## indiatech

*India to develop medium combat aircraft with stealth features *

Bangalore, Feb 13: After the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) plans to develop a medium combat aircraft (MCA) with "stealth features" and an unmanned combat aircraft vehicle (UCAV). 

The Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA) of the DRDO, which developed the LCA with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, will develop the MCA with the Indian Air Force. 

"We feel confident that after the LCA it will be the MCA and followed by the UCAV," M. Natarajan, DRDO chief and scientific adviser to the defence minister, told reporters at the 7th edition of the international air show Aero India-2009 in Yelahanka, on the outskirts of this city.

The twin engine MCA will weigh 19-20 tonnes.

"It is possible to have an MCA with a twin engine, with less weight and improved electronics. It will also have an inbuilt weapon load for stealth reasons. It is doable and it is a challenge," said Natarajan. 

The DRDO is also planning a twin-seater trainer variant of the LCA, which for the first time performed manoeuvres at the air show. 

"We will have an air force LCA, naval LCA and LCA twin seater trainer. Five to 10 years down the line, the role of the (LCA) trainers will be superior to the hawks (advanced jet trainers acquired from Britain)," Natarajan added. 

The IAF has placed an order for 20 Tejas lightweight multi-role planes, India's second indigenous fighter aircraft, and may increase the number to 40.

India to develop medium combat aircraft with stealth features


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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> well, given to Tatas it might be on air in 5 years. Given to DRDO , can't say.



What a gr8st piece of garbage this is? Can you just tell me how. And if you can't prove apologize for this shi$$y comment.


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## zeus

indiatech said:


> well, given to Tatas it might be on air in 5 years. Given to DRDO , can't say.



How many TATA build aircrafts are in the air any way ?? they are still learning to build UAV's


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## nitesh

Deccan Herald - LCA naval version to fly this year

LCA naval version to fly this year
By Kalyan Ray, DH News Service, Bangalore:

*The first prototype of the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is expected to fly towards the end of 2009.*


Within a few months of the first flight, a second prototype of the naval LCA will also take to the skies, P S Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, which is developing the fighter, told Deccan Herald here.

*The first version of the naval LCA will be a twin-seater trainer version, whereas the second naval LCA will be a fighter. Both are mark-I versions with limited capabilities and additional weight.*

*A mark-II variation of the naval LCA is also under development and scheduled to be realised by 2014-15*, Subramanyam said.

The naval LCA, meant for future aircraft carriers, *will have arrester-hooks* using which a fighter plan can land on the dock, and immediately come to a complete halt. The existing Indian aircraft carrier INS Virat does not use this technology. instead it uses traditional ramps for take-off and landing.

But future carriers, including INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) and the indigenous aircraft carrier, will have arrester-hook. While the former will have MiG-29K as the on-board fighters, the choice is wide open for the indigenous carrier.

Interestingly, *even before the first flight* of the naval LCA, the navy has *agreed to invest 30 per cent of the development cost* for the LCA mark-II naval version, he said.

*Test facility*

For testing the LCA naval mark-II version, ADA is developing a three km long shore-based test facility in Goa which will take another three years to complete.

Once INS Vikramaditya is inducted in the navy, naval LCA will also have to undergo a carrier compatibility test on-board. Intensive testings are required to improved the mark-II version. Developmental work for the naval LCA was sanctioned in 2002, and nearly Rs 1000 crore sanctioned, in 2003-04. The naval version will have the same weapon package as the air force version.

The mark-II version of LCA for the Indian Air Force, Subramanyam said, is also under development as IAF would eventually require five squadrons of the upgraded plane with a more powerful engine, better aerodynamics and advanced avionics.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will develop eight early technology demonstrators, 12 trainers and 20 fighters of LCA mark-I before producing 40 mark-II LCA, HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Baweja said on Thursday.
All mark-I planes which impressed everybody - including defence minister A K Antony - with their manoeuvres in the air show, are expected to be inducted by 2014. HAL is setting up two assembly lines for manufacturing LCA from 2011 at a rate of eight aircraft every year, Subramanyam informed.


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## duhastmish

DRDO is too slow.

actually that might be under statement but i doubt if MCA will ever fly if all the control is given to DRDO. They are failure themselves, non professional unit because of their bosses. I hope some day media will take a look at them and show how pathetic they are compared to other smiler world organization. with so much man power and brilliant brain behind. The big boss of DRDO are sucking the blood out of Indian defense. And tax payers like me our money is going in their pocket!!!!! with no result to yield out of it.


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> DRDO is too slow.
> 
> actually that might be under statement but i doubt if MCA will ever fly if all the control is given to DRDO. *They are failure themselves*, non professional unit because of their bosses. I hope some day media will take a look at them and show how pathetic they are compared to other smiler world organization. with so much man power and brilliant brain behind. The big boss of DRDO are sucking the blood out of Indian defense. And tax payers like me our money is going in their pocket!!!!! with no result to yield out of it.



Excellent BS care to prove the bold part.

You have habit of shooting statements not backing it off with proofs. So this time do that,


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## Makardhwaj

*IN Aero India 2009*

View attachment 0151adbdfdea4e13f5a1878352ab1311.jpg


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## ironman

duhastmish said:


> DRDO is too slow.
> 
> actually that might be under statement but i doubt if MCA will ever fly if all the control is given to DRDO. They are failure themselves, non professional unit because of their bosses. I hope some day media will take a look at them and show how pathetic they are compared to other smiler world organization. with so much man power and brilliant brain behind. The big boss of DRDO are sucking the blood out of Indian defense. And tax payers like me our money is going in their pocket!!!!! with no result to yield out of it.



Please don't underestimate anybody without any solid reason. During the Aero India 2009 there was a seminar conducted on this base, I am posting here some facts which they have faced. Its a copy from another forum please excuse. It is posted in Bharat Rakshak forum by *k Prasad.* So credit goes to him.


An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3&#37; shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took another new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## indiatech

nitesh said:


> What a gr8st piece of garbage this is? Can you just tell me how. And if you can't prove apologize for this shi$ comment.



Shitty comment? Well you will you know when you speak with some of the GE aircraft engine engineers , ex GTRE. Learn technologies at GTRE with the money that govt pumped over decades to GTRE and fly away to france and US to develop and enhance foreign engines. I know couple of them.

Sorry but I will not appologize to no one. Coz i am not the run for money type when there is job back home and expectation of people are high.

Patriotism is ok, but facts are facts .

Private enterprises won't let their employees ditch them that easy. It is time to hand over a crucial project to private contractor if you want them to happen fast and see results soon. At least if it is a no or failure, you will see it soon and not wait for ages to deliver performance.


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## nitesh

so this is clear rebuttel of DDM reports that there is no working engine. there is a working engine but unfortunately does not meet the requirement. Good achievement. Give some time they will come up with an engine that will meet the requirements.

Gr8 work GTRE.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> Shitty comment? Well you will you know when you speak with some of the GE aircraft engine engineers , ex GTRE. Learn technologies at GTRE with the money that govt pumped over decades to GTRE and fly away to france and US to develop and enhance foreign engines. I know couple of them.
> 
> Sorry but I will not appologize to no one. Coz i am not the run for money type when there is job back home and expectation of people are high.
> 
> Patriotism is ok, but facts are facts .
> 
> Private enterprises won't let their employees ditch them that easy. It is time to hand over a crucial project to private contractor if you want them to happen fast and see results soon. At least if it is a no or failure, you will see it soon and not wait for ages to deliver performance.



Are you mad? What have you written had you even done any sort of research before typing this. Don't give some people example who does not matter to any one. It's a professional choice if some body wants to leave an organization, then let him/her go. Give me one private enterprise whose not a single employee has been left it. Will not let them go easy!!. Define the term easy. Or that is a Moronic statement so say at least. Do you even know what is the infrastructure that needs to be built for creating an organization. What is the amount of money pumped in and compare it with similar projects running in other countries (in terms of starting from scratch with having no damn experience of even building up a previous generation product add costs like setting up an organization in terms of buildings also training the guys designing a product building it testing it ) and then give me one Indian Private enterprise which was having these facility and to start this project when it started or for that matter in present. Or else keep the mouth shut. 

These organizations has given a lot. It is not about patriotism it is about looking at the whole picture. Seeing from where work has begun and where it it has bought in present in terms of knowledge. For example, check out marine kaveri versions (look in to the interview of GTRE director Mr. T. Mohan Rao: In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com).


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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : Full squadron strength in eight years: Air Chief

On the Light Combat Aircraft, *he said trials in cold weather and weapons firing were over* and it should be operational by late 2010 or early 2011. *The IAF had placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 40 indigenous LCA &#8216;Tejas.&#8217; *


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## indiatech

nitesh said:


> Are you mad? What have you written had you even done any sort of research before typing this. Don't give some people example who does not matter to any one. It's a professional choice if some body wants to leave an organization, then let him/her go. Give me one private enterprise whose not a single employee has been left it. Will not let them go easy!!. Define the term easy. Or that is a Moronic statement so say at least. Do you even know what is the infrastructure that needs to be built for creating an organization. What is the amount of money pumped in and compare it with similar projects running in other countries (in terms of starting from scratch with having no damn experience of even building up a previous generation product add costs like setting up an organization in terms of buildings also training the guys designing a product building it testing it ) and then give me one Indian Private enterprise which was having these facility and to start this project when it started or for that matter in present. Or else keep the mouth shut.
> 
> These organizations has given a lot. It is not about patriotism it is about looking at the whole picture. Seeing from where work has begun and where it it has bought in present in terms of knowledge. For example, check out marine kaveri versions (look in to the interview of GTRE director Mr. T. Mohan Rao: In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com).



watch ur language mate. Don't ask me to keep my mouth shut. What ever you think or narrate doesn't have to do anything with this. What have we done making the infrustructure at GTRE ? We are not having a working engine now that passes the tests. You are blaming that private sectors doesn't have infructures to build defence products. well when did we give them a chance to work independently on a prestigious project like building an aircraft? Or when did we share secrets with them ? Do you know why the defence contractors exists at all? most of the successful ones being privates.


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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> watch ur language mate. Don't ask me to keep my mouth shut. What ever you think or narrate doesn't have to do anything with this. What have we done making the infrustructure at GTRE ? We are not having a working engine now that passes the tests. You are blaming that private sectors doesn't have infructures to build defence products. well when did we give them a chance to work independently on a prestigious project like building an aircraft? Or when did we share secrets with them ? Do you know why the defence contractors exists at all? most of the successful ones being privates.



So you still hadn't understood the basic thing. And still running around beating the bush. You are the one who started with a rhetoric.

Now there are two parts: 

Is there is a working engine: Answer is YES:

Check the presentation from AI 09
RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace

So stop the rhetoric here. That there is no working engine ok.

The second portion: Does it suffice the NEW IAF requirement: Answer is NO.

So the point is there is a working engine which does not meat the NEW requirement for Combat LCA. For this a new core needs to be developed. That is why LCA is going to use another engine.


Now where it can be used: Check out info about the marine versions. Can be used in UCAV. Check the interview I have given the link in previous post.

Now the point is who has stopped some private player from making anything? If some private entity wants to make something let them invest the money in building the infrastructure the human capital and then let them present to IAF. If IAF likes it they will use it. 

And stop telling that public sector companies are not transferring the tech to private sector. Check the DRDO life science laboratory which has transferred the formula of ready made food to private sector which they have developed it for armed forces. (This is just one example there are a lot of info posted in this forum only give some time read about those and then comment.)
Check the sub contractors for building of Akash system.


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## indiatech

nitesh said:


> So you still hadn't understood the basic thing. And still running around beating the bush. You are the one who started with a rhetoric.
> 
> Now there are two parts:
> 
> Is there is a working engine: Answer is YES:
> 
> Check the presentation from AI 09
> RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace
> 
> So stop the rhetoric here. That there is no working engine ok.
> 
> The second portion: Does it suffice the NEW IAF requirement: Answer is NO.
> 
> So the point is there is a working engine which does not meat the NEW requirement for Combat LCA. For this a new core needs to be developed. That is why LCA is going to use another engine.
> 
> 
> Now where it can be used: Check out info about the marine versions. Can be used in UCAV. Check the interview I have given the link in previous post.
> 
> Now the point is who has stopped some private player from making anything? If some private entity wants to make something let them invest the money in building the infrastructure the human capital and then let them present to IAF. If IAF likes it they will use it.
> 
> And stop telling that public sector companies are not transferring the tech to private sector. Check the DRDO life science laboratory which has transferred the formula of ready made food to private sector which they have developed it for armed forces. (This is just one example there are a lot of info posted in this forum only give some time read about those and then comment.)
> Check the sub contractors for building of Akash system.



If there is no infrustructure, how is L&T building launchers and akash system. You are contradicing urself. Kaveri isn't a sucess yet as it can't wotk in high altitude. Its pathetic that privates weren't let into the developments since ages. Now that atleast people realizes that without privates we will be 50 years behind defence producers. Stop quoting DFRL as it is out of context with hardware and software. 

Great work GTRE, long live GRTE etc etc won't help. The structure and participation needs to change and so is the accountability.

*This out of context discussion stops right here. PM me if you still want to take it.*


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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> If there is no infrustructure, how is L&T building launchers and akash system. You are contradicing urself. Kaveri isn't a sucess yet as it can't wotk in high altitude. Its pathetic that privates weren't let into the developments since ages. Now that atleast people realizes that without privates we will be 50 years behind defence producers. Stop quoting DFRL as it is out of context with hardware and software.
> 
> Great work GTRE, long live GRTE etc etc won't help. The structure and participation needs to change and so is the accountability.
> 
> *This out of context discussion stops right here. PM me if you still want to take it.*



Oh so this is great now a launcher of a missile system is getting compared to a Jet engine. So where else you want to hop on and on and on. You started the thing saying that tatas can make MCA fly in 5 years (post no 956). Check my reply post no 958 I asked you to prove your statement. You haven't substantiated it with any solid reasoning STILL. Then you ran towards somebody leaving GTRE for engine development in other countries and said what is achieved with the money pumped in (post no 965). Also you mentioned that private players will not let any body go easily in which way it was realted to your original comment of making a plane in 5 years? Then check the post 967 I pointed out the interview whihc mentions the achievement of GTRE which is response to your post no 965 that what has been achieved with money getting pumped in.

Then you ran with saying that there is no working engine without even reading the reply which says that engine is working. Then again when pointed out that there is a working engine.

Now you are again changine the things by comparing a launcher of a missile system with a jet engine. Apples to oranges comparison.

So you started with a useless comment which you have not STILL substantiated with any logic and running around the tree saying whatever you want to say. Don't comment without any logic.

PS: PM me if you have any logical thing that can be discussed otherwise I am not interested.


----------



## indiatech

nitesh said:


> Oh so this is great now a launcher of a missile system is getting compared to a Jet engine. So where else you want to hop on and on and on. You started the thing saying that tatas can make MCA fly in 5 years (post no 956). Check my reply post no 958 I asked you to prove your statement. You haven't substantiated it with any solid reasoning STILL. Then you ran towards somebody leaving GTRE for engine development in other countries and said what is achieved with the money pumped in (post no 965). Also you mentioned that private players will not let any body go easily in which way it was realted to your original comment of making a plane in 5 years? Then check the post 967 I pointed out the interview whihc mentions the achievement of GTRE which is response to your post no 965 that what has been achieved with money getting pumped in.
> 
> Then you ran with saying that there is no working engine without even reading the reply which says that engine is working. Then again when pointed out that there is a working engine.
> 
> Now you are again changine the things by comparing a launcher of a missile system with a jet engine. Apples to oranges comparison.
> 
> So you started with a useless comment which you have not STILL substantiated with any logic and running around the tree saying whatever you want to say. Don't comment without any logic.
> 
> PS: PM me if you have any logical thing that can be discussed otherwise I am not interested.



yes boss. i give up. You r definitely the one with most knowledge considering your seniority . you are great. i didnt keep running around. u r the one who brought the food/life sciences things , also Akash system. read ur previous post. Were that relevent? My stand is still same and will remain same. Bring in private cos NOW!! Condering the delivery models of privates i have strong reasons to believe that TATA will fly a protorype with foreign collaboration in 5 years. 

Since i have accepted my defeat like GTRE. Now please stop this.


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## nitesh

indiatech said:


> yes boss. i give up. You r definitely the one with most knowledge considering your seniority . you are great. i didnt keep running around. u r the one who brought the food/life sciences things , also Akash system. read ur previous post. Were that relevent? My stand is still same and will remain same. Bring in private cos NOW!! Condering the delivery models of privates i have strong reasons to believe that TATA will fly a protorype with foreign collaboration in 5 years.
> 
> Since i have accepted my defeat like GTRE. Now please stop this.



I am not the greatest. All i am saying is look in to the whole picture don't just shoot the statement it all started with you claiming that TATA can fly MCA in five years you STILL not done anything to prove it. Then you started the GTRE thing saying that there is only money getting pumped in with no results, Check the links posted that there is a working engine with derivates also.

Then you said that private sector has not got the chance wot work (post no. 969). Then I said about what DRDO has done for them. If you can put the reason in front so that we can have debate over that. rather then hopping around here and there.

And stop comparing you the sore loser to some organization. Seriously you have some mental issue it seems. You can't do anything logically or what. Seriously you better keep your bad mouth shut only.


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## ejaz007

*Sky power & lot of smoke *
SUJAN DUTTA 

A Tejas aircraft at Aero India 2009 at Yelahanka. (PTI) 
Bangalore, Feb. 12: A flaming orange lights its tail, a spiral of smoke charts its barrel-roll and Indias very own Tejas is today looking like a combat aircraft in the skies over Yelahanka, Bangalore. 

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has a long history and a past that is torturing the Indian Air Forces present and future. But at least now, for the first time in public view, it is looking like the fighter aircraft it was meant to be... a quarter century back. 

The sight of the Tejas (radiance) performing in a field with the F-16, the Superhornet and the Eurofighter that streak through the skies over here every hour is fuel for patriotic fervour. Defence minister A.K. Anthony says it fills him  as it should every Indian  with pride. 

The IAF is less than sure. One reason why the F-16 and the Eurofighter are flying here is to compete for an order to become part of the IAFs inventory. And the IAF is issuing the order because the LCA Tejas is way behind schedule. 

Had the LCA Tejas met its schedules, the IAF would not have had to go in for a global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft  that may be scaled up to more than 200 in a follow-up order. 

We are producing 40 LCAs of the mark I variety for initial operational clearance and then we will go on to the mark II variety after deciding on the engine. We cannot give timeframes now, Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja said. 

That leaves the IAF still guessing about timelines. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## ejaz007

*Full squadron strength in eight years: Air Chief *
K.V. Prasad 

By 2010, IAF will have integrated command 
IAF will launch own satellite by 2010
Pakistan having F-16s not an issue: Air Chief


BANGALORE: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major on Thursday said the Indian Air Force would have its full sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons in eight years and asserted that operating at lesser strength did not compromise its fighting edge.

The programme of phasing out, upgrading and induction is being carried out in a concerted manner without losing the combat edge. We should be able to reach 39 squadrons by 2017 and will have what we want and more by 2020, the Air Chief said at a press conference here. All air forces in the world went through this process, he pointed out.

Emphasising that technology was at the core of any air force, he said there was a conscious move to reduce different kinds of aircraft from the present varied inventory so that ultimately, the IAF would have fewer kinds of combat and transport aircraft and helicopters. This was essential for better management of both the aircraft and weapon systems as it was a challenge to manage and maintain a varied inventory. 

By this June, the IAF would connect all its 165 operational and other nodes through a secure fibre optic network while work on the voice and data net was also progressing well. By 2010, the IAF would have integrated command and control systems linking its entire operational data links to network platforms sensors, command and controls. The IAF would launch its own satellite by mid-2010.

Asked about the preparedness of the IAF in the wake of reports of China building infrastructure across the Indian borders, he said: We have our force deployment in a manner which caters for all likely adversaries in a situation of low intensity conflict.

To a question how the IAF looked at Pakistan having F-16, he said it was not an issue as he knew what Pakistans F-16 was capable of. It was not the aircraft but the type of equipment, including weapon systems, that was important and the capacity to tweak the system, exploit it and employ tactics.

*Radars* 

He admitted there were gaps on low-level radars in the country but the IAF had them in key areas. 

As for the threat perception from unused airfields in the country, he said it was for the respective State governments to keep surveillance.

On the Light Combat Aircraft, he said trials in cold weather and weapons firing were over and it should be operational by late 2010 or early 2011. The IAF had placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 40 indigenous LCA Tejas. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## LCA

Man,is it a real one... ?,if it is then....


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## LCA

Maiden flight of India's supersonic trainer in two months :: SamayLive

*Maiden flight of India's supersonic trainer in two months*

Published: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 at 14:53 IST

Bangalore, Feb 13 : India would fly its indigenously built supersonic light combat aircraft trainer --Tejas -- in two months for the first time, a senior defence official said here today.

It would be a general purpose dedicated trainer aircraft, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and Chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation, M Natarajan, told reporters.

*This trainer is going to be "far, far superior to Hawk in five-six years," he claimed.*

Hawk is the country's present advanced jet trainer aircraft.

Asked about the long-range Agni missile, he said "efforts are on".

DRDO is working towards capitalising on the work done in the first and second stages and trying to intelligently repackage both stages by reducing the inter-stage distance and gain that much space for pushing a third motor. These are not simple tasks, he said.

"I am very confident that sometime before December 2010, we should be able to demonstrate something," he said.


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## duhastmish

> Excellent BS care to prove the bold part.
> 
> You have habit of shooting statements not backing it off with proofs. So this time do that,


nitesh you are just blinded by the drdo. i think you are part of that useless body there. I can tell you , just like any of the other government funded organisaed body DRDO IS 90&#37; BS and you are by product of it. ITS MY MONEY WHICH IS GOING IN YOUR POCKET, and they are making product which are of no use and you asking me how drdo is a failure,
WELL ,
* lca , kaveri . ARJUN, OBSOLETE PRITVI , AGNI3, akash where ever that is , NAG missile*
so NITESH STOP GIVIGN ME YOUR B.S, and don't ever talk like that you useless money eater government employee. India will be better off without DRDO.


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> nitesh you are just blinded by the drdo. i think you are part of that useless body there. I can tell you , just like any of the other government funded organisaed body DRDO IS 90% BS and you are by product of it. ITS MY MONEY WHICH IS GOING IN YOUR POCKET, and they are making product which are of no use and you asking me how drdo is a failure,
> WELL ,
> * lca , kaveri . ARJUN, OBSOLETE PRITVI , AGNI3, akash where ever that is , NAG missile*
> so NITESH STOP GIVIGN ME YOUR B.S, and don't ever talk like that you useless money eater government employee. India will be better off without DRDO.



Rant of the nth degree, and oh yeah you are the only expert remaining here who knows everything. I said that you back up your post with FACTS not with another speculative rant. What is wrong with whatever you have mentioned put it forward let's see how much correct you are with your observation. 

Waiting..............


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## Nihat

Amazing rant by Mr D there - for once please Sir , back up what you are saying with concrete facts.

Prithvi was our 1st ballistic missile and very much proven but takes preparation to launch because it is liquid propelled but Agni 1 and Agni 2 are being inducted as I type and Agni 3 testing is going on with Agni 3 ICBM variant next year.

Arjun is set to go up in compettitive trials against the T-90 in the summer , let the results of those come out before you start mouthing off again.

LCA is fast moving towards IOC , yes there have been delays and problems and sanction but we were trying to skip 2 + generations here , wait till it is out , LSP 3 and weapons testing is due in 1 or 2 months.


IS there anything more I can help you with or will you be kind enough to post some proper backed up stuff over here , don't ruin the sanctity of a defence forum - whether Indian or Pakistani , it still grows on educated and reasoned conversation.


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## zombie:-)

duhastmish said:


> nitesh you are just blinded by the drdo. i think you are part of that useless body there. I can tell you , just like any of the other government funded organisaed body DRDO IS 90% BS and you are by product of it. ITS MY MONEY WHICH IS GOING IN YOUR POCKET, and they are making product which are of no use and you asking me how drdo is a failure,
> WELL ,
> * lca , kaveri . ARJUN, OBSOLETE PRITVI , AGNI3, akash where ever that is , NAG missile*
> so NITESH STOP GIVIGN ME YOUR B.S, and don't ever talk like that you useless money eater government employee. India will be better off without DRDO.



dude i think you better take a look at the signature of your profile .....


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## duhastmish

Sir.
I am a tax payer, And i bet i pay much more tax than any of you here.So i want my money to go in right hand and i want the result out of it. They are doing alright but this i and many more like me are not satisfied with result. Not just that we want more but we deserve more as well with second highest population of such brilliant brain.
Where as for proving all that--- lca - Iaf is too sceptic about having it
kaveri is not done and i dont see it happening as well.
missile technology - how many are installed in defense ????
brahmos- i am proud to have it in my defense But there i think drdo did much less than Russian counterparts.
Accept the facts dont live in denails!!!! if u keep denying the facts you will just become negative like you are.


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> Sir.
> I am a tax payer, And i bet i pay much more tax than any of you here.So i want my money to go in right hand and i want the result out of it. They are doing alright but this i and many more like me are not satisfied with result. Not just that we want more but we deserve more as well with second highest population of such brilliant brain.
> Where as for proving all that--- lca - Iaf is too sceptic about having it
> kaveri is not done and i dont see it happening as well.
> missile technology - how many are installed in defense ????
> brahmos- i am proud to have it in my defense But there i think drdo did much less than Russian counterparts.
> Accept the facts dont live in denails!!!! if u keep denying the facts you will just become negative like you are.



Why you are not ready to put the FACT for all to see. And continuing with rants. STILL not posted any link to prove what ever you are saying is correct.

Or basically you don't have any FACT at all. Come out of denial form your rants and post the FACTS.

Still waiting...........


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## SN320

I have to agree with DHM here. You are doing a disservice to the nation if you dont see the reality that DRDO basically has been a dud organization. I worked in ISRO and had many friends in DRDO and the difference in the work atmosphere between them is like day and night. This is anecdotal and I cannot give you proof of some public article  The work culture there is just not there atleast in Hyderabad where it has a huge base. It is better to make private sector a bigger part of every development project and keep DRDO as kind of a coordination agency. Whatever little development it has achieved should be shared with the joint venture teams with private companies.


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## nitesh

SN320 said:


> I have to agree with DHM here. You are doing a disservice to the nation if you dont see the reality that DRDO basically has been a dud organization. I worked in ISRO and had many friends in DRDO and the difference in the work atmosphere between them is like day and night. This is anecdotal and I cannot give you proof of some public article  The work culture there is just not there atleast in Hyderabad where it has a huge base. It is better to make private sector a bigger part of every development project and keep DRDO as kind of a coordination agency. *Whatever little development it has achieved* should be shared with the joint venture teams with private companies.



Again if you can't prove whatever you are talking then you are simply BSing that's it. You say you have worked in ISRO then you must know that DRDO is a defense organization and ISRO is a civil organizattion both are DIFFERENT work in different areas. So no comparsion. I am kinda surprised to see such a statement.

Care to explain and PROVE the bold part.


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## SN320

Whats the point differentiating between a civilian and defence organization? You meant to say a defence concern can take it easy just because too many people wear blinders when looking at its productivity? For the resources put in Drdo over the past few decades it has delivered little. Please let us know how many products of drdo that the armed forces feel 100% confident about using.


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## indiatech

SN320 said:


> Whats the point differentiating between a civilian and defence organization? You meant to say a defence concern can take it easy just because too many people wear blinders when looking at its productivity? For the resources put in Drdo over the past few decades it has delivered little. Please let us know how many products of drdo that the armed forces feel 100&#37; confident about using.



completely agree. Bring Privates now!!. I have seen enough DRDO people squandering tax payers money . Majority won't agree coz of the attitude they have developed for still getting paid even if under performance. 

No one is against DRDO. We need them to deliver. If they cant, please welcome Privates who can. Or atleast give them a chance.


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## EagleEyes

nitesh said:


> Why you are not ready to put the FACT for all to see. And continuing with rants. STILL not posted any link to prove what ever you are saying is correct.
> 
> Or basically you don't have any FACT at all. Come out of denial form your rants and post the FACTS.
> 
> Still waiting...........



Why are you singing the song of "bring facts". What he is saying is nothing wrong.


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## nitesh

SN320 said:


> Whats the point differentiating between a civilian and defence organization? You meant to say a defence concern can take it easy just because too many people wear blinders when looking at its productivity? For the resources put in Drdo over the past few decades it has delivered little. Please let us know how many products of drdo that the armed forces feel 100% confident about using.



Don't hop around check your previous post and check the reply first prove what ever you have said then we will move to next point.


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## nitesh

WebMaster said:


> Why are you singing the song of "bring facts". What he is saying is nothing wrong.



No sir, all I am saying is prove whatever that poster is saying.


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## LCA

Above discussion become quiet hot....

My point of view about DRDO is ,it should involve private sector in future defence projects not only in manufacturing but also in the development.It will decrease the time line of the product.

And yes both DRDO and ISRO ,we can say,are government organization.

But ISRO invovle only in space technology which include launch vehicle and satellite of different types(IRS and GSAT).

And DRDO and its subsidiaries involve in series of technology from UAV,Tank,Infantry vehicle,LCA,LCH,ALH,Pinake,etc,etc.list is very long.

So,it is not wise thing to compare ISRO and DRDO.


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## nitesh

LCA there are a lot of companies whihc are working with DRDO, there is nothing like there is no participation at all:

Hint: check L&T participation in nuclear submarine. Check L&T infotech and TCS in MMR software development


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## LCA

Nitesh i am not saying that there is no private participation at all.

Apart from L&T and TCS there are mahindra and godrej are also interested in defence industries.

Institutes lika IISc,IITs,etc should also be included into the research.


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## SN320

nitesh said:


> Don't hop around check your previous post and check the reply first prove what ever you have said then we will move to next point.



You either seem to have a comprehension problem or are as adept in fudging the issue as many fanboys are. I said identify a list of developments from drdo that the armed forces are fully confident about. Then we can discuss what great stuff drdo implemented with the resources the GoI poured into it all these years.


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## nitesh

SN320 said:


> You either seem to have a comprehension problem or are as adept in fudging the issue as many fanboys are. I said identify a list of developments from drdo that the armed forces are fully confident about. Then we can discuss what great stuff drdo implemented with the resources the GoI poured into it all these years.



No you have comprehension problem. First go to post 985 posted by you check the reply PROVE whatever you have said and then move to other points.


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## nitesh

LCA said:


> Nitesh i am not saying that there is no private participation at all.
> 
> Apart from L&T and TCS there are mahindra and godrej are also interested in defence industries.
> 
> Institutes lika IISc,IITs,etc should also be included into the research.



Then check the range increase coating developed by IISc guys. Check the RCS reduction paint developed by Gujrat guys (sorry I can't recollect the college name but the info is posted in this forum). Regarding IIT: There is a significant contribution in CLAW of LCA from the students.


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## duhastmish

Nitesh what proof proof are you asking man, you are surely dumb -I am putting proof infront of you...LCA IS living proof that's why its not flying for IAF, missile are falling apart how many do we have in service????? and kaveri is failure you just have be dumb to even question that. KAVERI IS A PROOF 
LCA IS A PROOF
NAG AND ALL THOSE FALLING MISSILE ARE PROOF 
COMPARE ISRO TO DRDO YOU will realise how pathetic drdo is!!!!!


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> Nitesh what proof proof are you asking man, you are surely dumb -I am putting proof infront of you...LCA IS living proof that's why its not flying for IAF, missile are falling apart how many do we have in service????? and kaveri is failure you just have be dumb to even question that. KAVERI IS A PROOF
> LCA IS A PROOF
> NAG AND ALL THOSE FALLING MISSILE ARE PROOF
> COMPARE ISRO TO DRDO YOU will realise how pathetic drdo is!!!!!



You are idiot of nth degree or what No comparison between ISRO and DRDO both function in different domain. Any sane person will recognize that but not the idiots of course.

LCA is in test pahse, IAF has placed the order for 40 nos. in current configuration are you sleeping Not reading the thread Check post no. 968

Stop running with the rhetoric about kaveri check the LINKS posted in post no 967 and 970. 

Which missile is falling? You have serious problem in mind (if at all it is there) or what. NAG developmental trails are COMPLETE in Aug08. User trails are successful in Dec08. LINKS are already posted in forum.

There is NO FAILURE or whatever rhetoric you are running around with.

I am still Waiting for your FACTS.

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## duhastmish

IDIOT , you are idiot you obnoxious weed. watch how you been responding just tells me how pathetic byproduct of DRDO you are. Every body knows how pathetic our goverment emploeyes are and you are nothign but just one of them. No need to elaborate on that go out of your room and ask the first person - WHat he think about your hard working goverment emploeyes. And how happy he is with Indian defense that will open your slacking eyes. 
where as for your missile 
Prithvi: To date the only reliable delivery system inducted is the Pirthvi missile with a range of 300 kilometres. The subsequent versions of this missile are still undergoing tests. The pride of India the Agni missile tested last time landed 200 kilometres off target.

Prithvi: Failure: To date the only reliable delivery system inducted is the Pirthvimissile with a range of 300 kilometres. The subsequent versions of this missile are still undergoing tests. The pride of India the Agni missile tested last time landed 200 kilometres off target. 

Akash: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians.

Akash: Failure: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians. Akashwas meant as a substitute for Pechora. On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said:&#8220;Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn&#8217;t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.&#8221; Bothmissiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.

Trishul: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli and Russian systems.

Trishul: Failure: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli Barak and Russian systems.

The IAF, for instance, has aging Pechora, Igla-1M and OSA-AK missile systems, and that, too, in woefully inadequate numbers.

While Trishul was to replace its OSA-AK weapons system, Akashwas meant as a substitute for Pechora.

But both the Trishul and Akash air defence missile systems, which are part of the original Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme launched as far back as 1983, have been dogged by development snags in their &#8220;command guidance and integrated Ramjet rocket propulsion&#8221; systems.

Trishul, for instance, has been tested over 80 times so far without coming anywhere near becoming operational. It was, in fact, virtually given up for dead in 2003 after around Rs 300 crore was spent on it, before being revived yet again.

Trishul&#8217;s repeated failure, in fact, forced the Navy to go in for nine Israeli Barak anti-missile defence systems for its frontline warships, along with 200 Barak missiles, at a cost of Rs 1,510 crore during the 1999 Kargil conflict. The Navy is now inducting even more Barak systems due to Trishul&#8217;s continued failure.

Speaking of the Trishul surface-to-air missile that has now been termed a technology demonstrator, former naval chief Sushil Kumar said:&#8220;It was a national embarrassment. DRDO made fake claims for 25 years. In the 1999 Kargil conflict, the navy was vulnerable to attacks from Pakistan&#8217;s Harpoon.

NAG : not even worth talking

LCA : your claim of 40 brillient aircraft - how mauch have we spent on this project to get these 40 undesired (IAF ) aircraft. everybody knows how IAF dont want these paper fighters.
kaveri : go to BANGLORE and then aero 2009 and then kaveri stall ask them how proud they are of this Kaveri i bet my honda engine runs better with its 3000cc than this kaveri.


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## duhastmish

DRDO has a budget of Rs45 billion, now that figure is extremely high for a poor country like India, with a low rank of 127 among 175 countries of the world, in the United Nations Human Development Index.yet they deliver so little with those cheap brain you get in india. You can find a good engineer working for less than 200$ a month!!!! And this is safe haven for them as they just get there and slack. just like LOCAL POLICE. LCA is yet to prove its worth. only thing we got out of it is ---the experience and if these buggerswont be able to deliver MCA - that too will be a lost battle!


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> IDIOT , you are idiot you obnoxious weed. watch how you been responding just tells me how pathetic byproduct of DRDO you are. Every body knows how pathetic our goverment emploeyes are and you are nothign but just one of them. No need to elaborate on that go out of your room and ask the first person - WHat he think about your hard working goverment emploeyes. And how happy he is with Indian defense that will open your slacking eyes.


You have proved that you are sore loser and will remain so in your remaining life time. You are still not able to garner any FACTS about DRDO. And you are continuing with baseless RANTS.




> Prithvi: To date the only reliable delivery system inducted is the Pirthvi missile with a range of 300 kilometres. The subsequent versions of this missile are still undergoing tests. The pride of India the Agni missile tested last time landed 200 kilometres off target.


Totally false statement. Agni III last test was successful this was the third test of the missile.



> Akash: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians.
> 
> Akash: Failure: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians. Akashwas meant as a substitute for Pechora. On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said:&#8220;Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn&#8217;t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.&#8221; Bothmissiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.


Completely baseless statement: 2 squadrons are ordered by IAF.



> Trishul: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli and Russian systems.
> 
> Trishul: Failure: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli Barak and Russian systems.


It is already closed and declared a TD.



> NAG : not even worth talking


It has already been ordered by IA. 443 missiles with 13 Namica launchers.



> LCA : your claim of 40 brillient aircraft - how mauch have we spent on this project to get these 40 undesired (IAF ) aircraft. everybody knows how IAF dont want these paper fighters.


IAF does not want LCA. Wow then why they ordered? 



> kaveri : go to BANGLORE and then aero 2009 and then kaveri stall ask them how proud they are of this Kaveri i bet my *honda engine runs better with its 3000cc than this kaveri.*



Again going in wrong direction. I have posted the link which clearly mentions the engine is working. Of course until you can prove otherwise.

Well the BOLD part so you have tested both the engines! that's truely amazing. You are perfect candidate for king of lala land.

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## duhastmish

Nitesh apologies for being disrespectful,I did'nt mean to but things got messed up.


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> Nitesh apologies for being disrespectful,I did'nt mean to but things got messed up.



I am also sorry me also lost control over myself.

Mate one thing we should understand and see the whole picture before commenting especially about some organization. You straightaway can't shoot a statement and get away with it. DRDO has done excellent service to the country. And this is a fact. Let's get over it.


----------



## duhastmish

Nitesh , i have a friend like my family been together for20 years of my life out of 26 yrs since i was born.His father working for DRDO, he actually made us inclined toward aviation and since then its been my hobby we created some of the coolest robotic air craft etc.But one question which i kept repeating is why LCA is not in skies, i Remember when i first touched LCA in feb 2001.and i was sure i will see it in iaf by no time thats what most people working their arse off for LCA told me.But i can promise you brother there are so many slacker who just don't work by what direction they been given. THAT'S why we see these failures. And thanx to iaf WHO are never open and clear about their demands.But here what i said was more of frustration yes they been working but there are too many failures which shouldn't be there. May there be more professionalism and surely we see better result than what been getting.


----------



## indiatech

nitesh said:


> Again going in wrong direction. *I have posted the link which clearly mentions the engine is working.* Of course until you can prove otherwise.
> 
> Well the BOLD part so you have tested both the engines! that's truely amazing. You are perfect candidate for king of lala land.



link link link, prove prove ... A successful engine that miserably fails on air/ high altitude tests in russia. What is it good for runnig boats? Well it has a chance to land up running boats now, but might be another failure.

Don't read links. Ask GTRE guys personally. The will tell you whatr a failure it was. DRDO needs to be critically observed for its performance and layoff all those useless resource .

You know what, we don't need people like you really to Talibanize the defence industry. We need serious private perticipation and not on small little things.

You are a real ignorant and arrogant person. India will build nothing untill ages if we have people thinking in your direction.


----------



## nitesh

indiatech said:


> link link link, prove prove ... A successful engine that miserable fails on air/ high altitude tests in russia. What is it good for runnig boats? Well it has a chance to land up running boats now, but might be another failure.


I posted presentation from AI 09 where it has clearly mentions about a working engine. So you are still RANTING.



> Don't read links. Ask GTRE guys personally. The will tell you whatr a failure it was. DRDO needs to be critically observed for its performance and layoff all those useless resource .


Why ask personally? What sort of point is this. There is no value of any private conversation in a public forum. You have to prove that money is wasted or else you are RANTING.



> You know what, we don't need people like you really to Talibanize the defence industry. We need serious private perticipation and not on small little things.


You know we don't need people like you who start giving conclusions without any logic. There is private participation already.



> You are a real ignorant and arrogant person. India will build nothing untill ages if we have people thinking in your direction.



Thank you you have proved that you are not able to PROVE yourself so you are running around.


----------



## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> Nitesh , i have a friend like my family been together for20 years of my life out of 26 yrs since i was born.His father working for DRDO, he actually made us inclined toward aviation and since then its been my hobby we created some of the coolest robotic air craft etc.But one question which i kept repeating is why LCA is not in skies, i Remember when i first touched LCA in feb 2001.and i was sure i will see it in iaf by no time thats what most people working their arse off for LCA told me.But i can promise you brother there are so many slacker who just don't work by what direction they been given. THAT'S why we see these failures. And thanx to iaf WHO are never open and clear about their demands.But here what i said was more of frustration yes they been working but there are too many failures which shouldn't be there. May there be more professionalism and surely we see better result than what been getting.



I think you should read the book "The tejas Story" from Air marshal Rajkumar it will clear lot of doubts about project. There is nothing like perfection. The project has seen may lows and came out of it. IAF has placed the order for 40 in current configuration. Things are moving in right direction.

Similarly DRDO needs some changes in there working but it is not like that you start saying failure and all. And DRDO is moving in right direction. It is good to see that your friend's father worked in DRDO. Hats off to him because of people like him we are seeing lot of technologies getting indigenous. Getting the technologies indigenous is a continuous process.

One thing you have to learn as a professional as never disrespect any professional organization. That's all i can say.


----------



## LCA

Kaveri engine is working going for test in march.

If test are successfull, then it will be fixed with Tejas.

Problem with kaveri enigne is, it is not producing enough thrust according to IAF.


----------



## duhastmish

Sir lca they been saying this for some time now,They said its almost in less than last 5-3&#37; of required thrust. But i hope IAF wont change their requirement again. Like earlier


----------



## indiatech

correct , Kaveri is going to be working after Snecma got in recently. They should have got them early and atleast should have made an working engine. Inhouse development could still have continued.eg. If HAL would not have brought in the french to collaborate in the Shakti helicopter engine, DHRUV might now have been flying with a foreign engine.

GTRE has developed nine prototypes of the Kaveri engine but appear to have reached a dead-end after last high-altitude tests, conducted at Russian facilities, failed once again in 2008 . Previous one was in 2004.
The DRDO floated international tenders in 2005 for co-development and received a response from four companies, Pratt and Whitney, GE, Snecma and NPO Saturn for its Request for Proposals (RFP). The RFP was modified and re-floated in 2006 to include co-production along with co-development. 


now Kaveri would be a nine-tonne capacity engine with a low thrust-to- weight ratio. Snecma will transfer full know-how and the engines would be developed and produced by HAL in India.Its going to be a joint Indo-French engine with shared expertise with gradual transfer of full know-how.

The DRDO chief, M. Natarajan has earlier said that the Kaveri had achieved 95 per cent capability and it was the last 5 per cent that it had failed to negotiate. Critically, it was this last 5 per cent that constituted the 'slam effect' of any jet fighter engine.Natarajan has attributed a number of reasons to this failure, which are mainly historical in nature. India has much to catch up on, not just in areas of engine technology but also in related areas such as metallurgy, which are critical for the development of any engine of such sophistication.


----------



## indiatech

kaveri at Aero India 2009


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> Sir lca they been saying this for some time now,They said its almost in less than last 5-3&#37; of required thrust. But i hope IAF wont change their requirement again. Like earlier



Let's take the correct perspective jet engine development is a complex thing not many countries possess it. They started from scratch and almost got there. When I say scratch then I mean from material technology to machines tools design and every other aspect of the engine. Check the interview in explains the things in perspective: In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com


----------



## LCA

duhastmish said:


> Sir lca they been saying this for some time now,They said its almost in less than last 5-3% of required thrust. But i hope IAF wont change their requirement again. Like earlier



Jet engine devlopment is very complex thing.

There are many tech. like metallurgy,ceramics, etc, which we people don't even know.

And also developing a engine need lot of infrastructure , even GTRE don't have any testing facilities for engine .

They have to go to russia for testing which also delay the proceeding.


----------



## nitesh

AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA

Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).

The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.

The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.

Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4&#37; on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.

This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.

In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.

The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.

The flight-control system can be configured to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions, he adds.

Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.


----------



## BATMAN

> Kaveri is going to be working after Snecma got in recently


Snecma was hired as consultants by india for development of Kaveri for long time in the begining in the middle and now again RECENTLY.



> Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its *indigenously *developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).


Now this is as funny as it can get all LCA is being developed by foreign companies but it is still indigenously developed?
This clearly shows the level of brain wash of indian public..


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## indiatech

BATMAN said:


> Snecma was hired as consultants by india for development of Kaveri for long time in the begining in the middle and now again RECENTLY...



So? Now snecma is not a consultant. it is in a partnersip. It will provide the core to Kaveri replacing its kavini core. Joint development and profit sharing business for future.



> Now this is as funny as it can get all LCA is being developed by foreign companies but it is still indigenously developed?
> This clearly shows the level of brain wash of indian public..



Can you name a few foreign companies that have developed the LCA airframe or the going to be fitter MMR or anything else that you may be aware of?

link link link , prove , prove , prove...... like nitesh keep insisting.


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## Keysersoze

indiatech said:


> So? Now snecma is not a consultant. it is in a partnersip. It will provide the core to Kaveri replacing its kavini core. Joint development and profit sharing business for future.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you name a few foreign companies that have developed the LCA airframe or the going to be fitter MMR or anything else that you may be aware of?
> 
> link link link , prove , prove , prove...... like nitesh keep insisting.



Well how about the "consultation" with Dassault in 1987?


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> Snecma was hired as consultants by india for development of Kaveri for long time in the begining in the middle and now again RECENTLY.


So what is the point here? They were consultants. Consultanats are hired for giving there expert advice to some organization which does not have any expertise in the particular field in which it starting to work. Sorry I am not aware of there involvement in kaveri development project. But yes they were involved in some consultancy related to LCA till 1987. 



> Now this is as funny as it can get all LCA is being developed by foreign companies but it is still indigenously developed?
> This clearly shows the level of brain wash of indian public..


How do you know that other companies are invovled? Because the news is given to general public right? Or they come and tell you privately and then you come here and tell us. Your statement is baseless buddy. It is clearly shown where they are helping out. So there is no brainwashing done.


----------



## nitesh

> link link link , prove , prove , prove...... like nitesh keep insisting.


If you have any issue with me directly point to me or else keep your mouth shut. Hope I am clear here. If you can't back up you spectacular RANTS. Then better you keep yourself out from discussion.


----------



## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Well how about the "consultation" with Dassault in 1987?



Key boss, I am using the source from the book The LCA story from Air Marshal Rajkumar. According to that Dassault was supposed to be partner for FCS system development with 3 digital and 1 analog channel but they chose to have four digital channel and decided to make it alone with consultancy from test pilots of US testing the behaviour . Dassault walked out of the deal due to this decision.


----------



## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Key boss, I am using the source from the book The LCA story from Air Marshal Rajkumar. According to that Dassault was supposed to be partner for FCS system development with 3 digital and 1 analog channel but they chose to have four digital channel and decided to make it alone with consultancy from test pilots of US testing the behaviour . Dassault walked out of the deal due to this decision.



What year was this?


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> What year was this?



1987 is the year the walked of. They were taken in 1986 when they suggested that they will offer the tech used in Mirage that is 3 digital channel and 1 analog channel.


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## qsaark

thrust-vectoring EJ200


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## nik007delta

the pakis here are not anti-india and they are almost neutral....
i love this site


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## nik007delta

of course the LCA cannot be 100&#37; indian. This is the first fighter jet developed by india and that too 4.5th generation. indian involvement cannot be more than 90%. Its taking a long time to develop.


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## nitesh

Thanks to Dr. Shiv from BR


----------



## LCA

A very good video of LCA, but i think still lot of things are there to improve.
Like, there is no 360' roll , no high G turn ,which will be possible after new engine and further testing od air frame.


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## uday

*HAL Tejas Update: Eurojet to Offer EJ200 as Kaveri Engine Alternative*
Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).

The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.
The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4&#37; on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.

This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.

In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.

EADS is leading the Eurofighter bid to win India's 126-aircraft medium multirole combat aircraft contest with the twin-engined Typhoon, and a deal to also equip the country's single-engined LCAs with the EJ200 would make the economics of establishing an in-country engine assembly line considerably more attractive.

The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.

The flight-control system can be configured to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions, he adds.

Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.

HAL Tejas Update: Eurojet to Offer EJ200 as Kaveri Engine Alternative | India Defence


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## nitesh

LCA-Tejas has completed 1052 Test Flights successfully. (19-Feb-09).

* LCA has completed 1052 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-185,PV2-112,PV3-125,LSP1-41,LSP2-52).

(19-Feb-09)Tejas-LCA


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## ejaz007

nik007delta said:


> of course the LCA cannot be 100% indian. This is the first fighter jet developed by india and that too 4.5th generation. indian involvement cannot be more than 90%. Its taking a long time to develop.



It is the second jet Indians are developing. First was HF-24 Marut.


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## zombie:-)

ejaz007 said:


> It is the second jet Indians are developing. First was HF-24 Marut.



not to forget the HJT-16 Kiran my friend hence it is the third jet engine powered aircraft by INDIANS and HAL HJT-36 sitara comes fourth


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## heartwinlion

Can anybody confirm me why IAF consider that lca is under power g limit only 6 with a2a 21 degree? But when we talking between Gripen fighters have a same engine it has no problem. JF-17 has a same dry thrust and afterburner with RD-93 (export version of RD-33 power by Mig-29) it can go to 17 dg. in a2a and g limit 8.5. ?
JF-17
engine RD-33
L 167.3
D 40.9
W 1055
D/T 50
FULL A/B 81/85
G-39/LCA
engine	GE404
L	154
D	35
W	1036
D/T	55
FULL A/B	81/85


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## zombie:-)

heartwinlion said:


> Can anybody confirm me why IAF consider that lca is under power g limit only 6 with a2a 21 degree? But when we talking between Gripen fighters have a same engine it has no problem. JF-17 has a same dry thrust and afterburner with RD-93 (export version of RD-33 power by Mig-29) it can go to 17 dg. in a2a and g limit 8.5. ?
> JF-17
> engine RD-33
> L 167.3
> D 40.9
> W 1055
> D/T 50
> FULL A/B 81/85
> G-39/LCA
> engine	GE404
> L	154
> D	35
> W	1036
> D/T	55
> FULL A/B	81/85



gora videshi maal kise achha nahi lagta 

why do indian men admire western stuff when indian stuff is equally good if not better compare hollywood and bollywood.........

sorry for being off topic but i dont have solid reasons


----------



## duhastmish

zombie:-) said:


> gora videshi maal kise achha nahi lagta
> 
> why do indian men admire western stuff when indian stuff is equally good if not better compare hollywood and bollywood.........
> 
> sorry for being off topic but i dont have solid reasons



Sir ji
Indian defense team is hardly being obsessed by gora stuff. we are developing our own technology- different story how successful we been till now, but We are at least trying.You should research on how many indigenous or joint ventures India is into.


----------



## zombie:-)

duhastmish said:


> Sir ji
> Indian defense team is hardly being obsessed by gora stuff. we are developing our own technology- different story how successful we been till now, but We are at least trying.You should research on how many indigenous or joint ventures India is into.



dont take it seriously it was a joek


----------



## LCA

TRISHUL: OSAMC For Aircraft Upgrades

*OSAMC For Aircraft Upgrades*

The OSAMC, originally developed by DARE and also known earlier as the core avionics computer, is presently on board the Su-30MKI and upgraded MiG-27Ms and upgraded Jaguar IMs, and will also be an integral part of the DARIN-3 avionics upgrade package for the yet-to-be-upgraded and re-engined Jaguar IS. The IAF's upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s too will have OSAMC on-board. The OSAMC is also being globally marketed by a joint India-US joint venture


----------



## shchinese

hi all Indian friends, this time I just want to know when you guys want to test the carrier version of the LCA? is there any more "test" after the carrier tests?


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## duhastmish

Sir shchinese nice to hear from, the naval version of lca should fly by the end of this year. Within a few months of the first flight, a second prototype of the naval LCA will also take to the skies.Since the first version will be twin seater trainer and second will be fighter.
thankyou.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/26/stories/2008112651981400.htm


----------



## LCA

*LCA Navy brochure images*

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/02/lca-navy-brochure-images.html

Also some information given about MCA in this link


----------



## CrazyEagle9

LCA said:


> *LCA Navy brochure images*
> 
> LiveFist: LCA Navy brochure images
> 
> Also some information given about MCA in this link



I must admit....DRDO is really good in making brochurs. Hope for product as well.


----------



## LCA

infinite_dreams9586 said:


> I must admit....DRDO is really good in making brochurs. Hope for product as well.



I must say you read the whole content in the link.


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## shchinese

I wish all the best for the LCA project and I do hope LCA can be accepted into your airforce/navy in less than another 20 years. 

same for the arjun.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## duhastmish

yes 20 yrs will be right time by then china will be flying in dust, as it will face the result of communist approach, right in midest of civil war.Then chinese rebels will love to have lca to topple the chinese war planes which cant fly more than 20 hours i guess.


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## LCA

duhastmish said:


> yes 20 yrs will be right time by then china will be flying in dust, as it will face the result of communist approach, right in midest of civil war.Then chinese rebels will love to have lca to topple the chinese war planes which cant fly more than 20 hours i guess.



*AMEN*


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## linkinpark

Look at the rolls that are being done by LCA.


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## nitesh

Good watch:
domain-b.com : Indian business : Videos : Aviation & aerospace videos
domain-b.com : Indian business : Videos : Aviation & aerospace videos

will give a lot of insight

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## adm_havemercy

but lca is taking huge amount of time . on the other hand pakistan is acquiring jf-17 , j-10 and f-16 block 52 .
what is happening .


----------



## ironman

nitesh said:


> Good watch:
> domain-b.com : Indian business : Videos : Aviation & aerospace videos
> domain-b.com : Indian business : Videos : Aviation & aerospace videos
> 
> will give a lot of insight



Clearly an Eye Opener..


----------



## foofighter

Guys, can anyone tell me what is the advantage of a delta wing config? I mean everyone, including the LCA brochure mentions in amongst the top 3 features..
Thanks


----------



## zombie:-)

foofighter said:


> Guys, can anyone tell me what is the advantage of a delta wing config? I mean everyone, including the LCA brochure mentions in amongst the top 3 features..
> Thanks



Delta wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1057 Test Flights successfully. (28-Feb-09).


LCA has completed 1057 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-185,PV2-113,PV3-129,LSP1-41,LSP2-52). 
113th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 27th Feb 09. 
129th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 27th Feb 09.


----------



## indiatech

*What went wrong with LCA, Arjun Tank, Akash missile*

New Delhi: Poor planning, over-optimistic timelines and a lack of coordination with the Armed Forces led to cost and time overruns of major defence projects taken up by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), says the first external review of the research body. 

The P Rama Rao committee, which was formed to revamp the organisation, has said that the major cause for delays and failures of indigenous defence products is DRDOs tendency to over-estimate its capabilities. The inability of the research body to involve the Armed Forces in developmental projects 

from the start has been identified as a major area of concern. 

In all of the major projects reviewed by the committee  the Light Combat Aircraft, the Arjun Tank, Kaveri engine and the Akash Surface to Air Missile  it cracked down on the DRDO for the same problems of over-optimism and poor planning. 

The LCA project has come under a lot of flak from the committee, which says the delays resulted in a substantive setback to the Air Force and reduced its war-fighting potential. Even now, when 48 of the fighters are set to be inducted into the Air Force, five major problems areas remain unresolved, reducing the capability of the fighter, the review reveals. 


Similarly, DRDO scientists over-enthusiasm about the capability of the organisation has been identified as the main reason behind delays in the Arjun Tank project. While the committee has said that the tank be inducted in the present form, it has directed DRDO to immediately work on a new more acceptable version of the tank. 

The committee has now recommended to the Government that DRDO should undertake all projects in the future on a joint developmental basis and involve foreign partners to imbibe global standards. DRDOs tendency of overstretching itself to reinvent the wheel has also been noted and the committee has said that foreign help should be taken without any reservations in future projects. 

The committee has taken a look at some major projects and has recommended the road ahead on each one of them. 

*Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) *

StatuS: The fighter may even miss the revised deadline of December 2010 by one-two years as DRDO has not been able to generate enough test flights. The present fighter fails to meet requirements set by the Air Force in 1985. Some major requirements that will not be met even after induction include mismatch of aircraft weight to power available from its engines, inadequate turn rates, low supersonic acceleration and achieving maximum angle of attack. The Kaveri engine being developed is nowhere near completion. LCAs weight has increased 900 kg over the original 9 ton.


*Way Ahead *

Accepting LCA in its sub-optimal performance as LCA Mk I, IAF to induct 48 of these underpowered fighters. 

However, new teams to be formed immediately to develop a Mk II version that will meet the original requirements identified in 1985. 
 
The laboratory behind the project  the Aeronautic Development Agency (ADA)  be merged with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). 

Take up any future military aerospace programme as a joint venture with foreign aircraft design organisations. 

Kaveri engine project to be taken up as a co-design programme with foreign collaborator. 


*Arjun Main Battle Tank *

StatuS: The original requirements were drawn up by the Army in 1972. The Army has placed orders for 124 tanks but these are still undergoing trials. The committee says while two changes in requirements by the Army in 1982 and 1985 contributed to the delay, the main reason was over-optimism of inexperienced developers who under-estimated the time needed for making weapon systems. 


Pulling up the DRDO for the inordinate delay, the committee says: 

Too much time and effort spent in developing engine for tank without meeting success. 

DRDO looked at outsourcing turret control systems only in mid-80s after failing to develop it in-house. 

DRDO did not hand over blueprints and specifications to the manufacturing facility on time. 

Tank suffered from poor product quality and sub-optimal performance during development, testing and production stage. 


*Way Ahead *

DRDO should immediately start work on a Mk II version of the tank to meet the Armys requirements. 

Advanced version to be built on a joint development model and foreign collaborators should be roped in to gain expertise. 

DRDO needs to work on indigenisation of engine, turret and sight and fire control system that it has completely failed to develop. 


*Akash Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile *

StatuS: The work started in 1983, but the system failed to meet all deadlines set for development. While the Air Force will be inducting the system shortly, it is yet to meet the Armys requirements. The missile system has failed mobility tests in the deserts, where it was too heavy and got stuck in the sand during trials. Cannot negotiate steep sand dunes. Developers over-estimated own capabilities, set unrealistic targets and did not involve the Armed Forces during the development, says the committee.

Should immediately start work on a new Mk II version of the missile. 

DRDO has to make all out effort to involve the Army and Air Force in the development of the new system to meet all their requirements. 

DRDO to take up a joint development approach with foreign collaborator.


What went wrong with LCA, Arjun Tank, Akash missile


----------



## BATMAN

> Way Ahead
> 
> &#8226;*Accepting LCA in its &#8220;sub-optimal performance*&#8221; as LCA Mk I, IAF to induct 48 of these underpowered fighters.
> 
> &#8226;However, new teams to be formed immediately to develop a Mk II version that will meet the original requirements identified in 1985.
> 
> &#8226;The laboratory behind the project &#8212; the Aeronautic Development Agency (ADA) &#8212; be merged with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> &#8226;Take up any future military aerospace programme as a joint venture with foreign aircraft design organisations.
> 
> &#8226;Kaveri engine project to be taken up as a co-design programme with foreign collaborator.


-In exactly which role sub optimal LCA would fit in Indian airforce?
-Which version french would be working on block1 or block2? Which block naval version belongs to?
-As far we know LCA is already a coproduction of HAL and ADA?
-If india can develop an indigenous fighter jet which is ranked #2 in world than would it be wise to do joint venture?
-Rumors suggest Kaveri is already in service, now you talk about its design?



> Way Ahead
> 
> &#8226;DRDO should immediately start work on a Mk II version of the tank to meet the Army&#8217;s requirements.
> 
> &#8226;Advanced version to be built on a joint development model and foreign collaborators should be roped in to gain expertise.
> 
> &#8226;DRDO needs to work on indigenisation of engine, *turret and sight and fire control system that it has completely failed to develop*.



- How many MarkI will be built?
- Again, what would be the benefit for india in joint venture, as the rumors suggest arjun is ranked #1 in its present form?
- Rumors were that turret and fire control performed better than T-90 but you suggest it completely failed?


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> -In exactly which role sub optimal LCA would fit in Indian airforce?


A2A role



> -Which version french would be working on block1 or block2? Which block naval version belongs to?


Kaveri is not related to LCA any more so Block 1 will be powered by IN20 engines and Block II will be with EJ/GE414 enigne. But expect a surprise here.



> -As far we know LCA is already a coproduction of HAL and ADA?


HAL is production agency ADA is development agency.



> -If india can develop an indigenous fighter jet which is ranked #2 in world than would it be wise to do joint venture?


Can you please elaborate the question, sorry not able to understand.



> -Rumors suggest Kaveri is already in service, now you talk about its design?


No kaveri is not under service it's fighter plane version is goind for thest this month in moscow and f it passes the test then there are plans to further test it with LCA. marine version has passed the test for 12MW now undergoing testing for 15MW. If it passes that then it will be considered for destroyers (Kolkata class)



> - How many MarkI will be built?


According to latest vayu edition (I have hard copy of that sorry no soft copy) by 2010-2011 total of 51.



> - Again, what would be the benefit for india in joint venture, as the rumors suggest arjun is ranked #1 in its present form?


The JV is in nascent stage as of now for FMBT. No info available as of now.



> - Rumors were that turret and fire control performed better than T-90 but you suggest it completely failed?


previous reports suggest the same no idea why this is written.


----------



## nitesh

indiatech said:


> *Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) *
> 
> StatuS: The fighter may even miss the revised deadline of December 2010 by &#8220;one-two years&#8221; as DRDO has not been able to generate enough test flights. The present fighter fails to meet requirements set by the Air Force in 1985. Some major requirements that will not be met even after induction include mismatch of aircraft weight to power available from its engines, inadequate turn rates, low supersonic acceleration and achieving maximum angle of attack. The Kaveri engine being developed is nowhere near completion. LCA&#8217;s weight has increased 900 kg over the original 9 ton.
> 
> 
> *Way Ahead *
> 
> &#8226;Accepting LCA in its &#8220;sub-optimal performance&#8221; as LCA Mk I, IAF to induct 48 of these underpowered fighters.
> 
> &#8226;However, new teams to be formed immediately to develop a Mk II version that will meet the original requirements identified in 1985.
> 
> &#8226;The laboratory behind the project &#8212; the Aeronautic Development Agency (ADA) &#8212; be merged with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> &#8226;Take up any future military aerospace programme as a joint venture with foreign aircraft design organisations.
> 
> &#8226;Kaveri engine project to be taken up as a co-design programme with foreign collaborator.



What a mess of the things. LCA original weight supposed to be empty as 5500 KG. It is now at 6500KG. There was no ASR placed in 1985. The project cam out of PDP phase after 1987. The ASR was changed in 2004 to have the total weapon payload of 4.5 tons. I really don't know what these guys are actually up to.


----------



## LCA

nitesh said:


> What a mess of the things. LCA original weight supposed to be empty as 5500 KG. There was no ASR placed in 1985. The project cam out of PDP phase after 1987. The ASR was changed in 2004 to have the total weapon payload of 4.5 tons. I really don't know what these guys are actually up to.



I think that was DDM at his best.


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## ejaz007

nitesh said:


> What a mess of the things. LCA original weight supposed to be empty as 5500 KG. It is now at 6500KG. There was no ASR placed in 1985. The project cam out of PDP phase after 1987. The ASR was changed in 2004 to have the total weapon payload of 4.5 tons. I really don't know what these guys are actually up to.



Why don't you people hire all these gurus and benefit from their expertise. The final product shall be interesting to see


----------



## ejaz007

*HAL Tejas: DRDO Conducting Two Week Long Weaponization Tests*
Dated 4/3/2009


India's premier defence agency DRDO is carrying out a two-week second phase weapon testing trials of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) at an Air Force base in the north-western sector. 

"The focus of the current phase of testing is safe separation and accuracy of weapon delivery. The results from the tests would validate aerodynamic interference data as well as complex weapon release algorithms in different modes of release," DRDO officials said.

A composite test team comprising specialists from Aeronautical Development Agency, IAF, HAL and other aerospace agencies is based at the trial location to evaluate the performance of the indigenous combat aircraft. DRDO has directly linked the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via enabling designers and other specialists to monitor the activities in real time. ISRO's GPS Radiosonde is used for gathering accurate upper air data at the trial location.

DRDO is expected to hand over the first squadron of the LCA in December 2010 to the IAF in the initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration. A total of seven LCA squadrons will be inducted in the IAF. The first two squadrons of the IAF will be in the IOC configuration whereas the rest five will be the LCA Mark II, which will be an upgraded version of the aircraft.

HAL Tejas: DRDO Conducting Two Week Long Weaponization Tests | India Defence


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## nitesh

Broadsword: Photos from an LCA bombing run


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> Why don't you people hire all these gurus and benefit from their expertise. The final product shall be interesting to see



are yaar chod na time and again some DDM writes it's fantasies and the whole things goes in to mess.


----------



## nitesh

India's Tejas could get Israeli radar



> Israel Aerospace Industries' subsidiary Elta Systems last year began talks with Indian companies that are involved in an effort to develop an indigenous radar for the Tejas, with the discussions linked to Elta's active electronically scanned array EL/M-2052.


----------



## heartwinlion

India's Tejas could get Israeli radar
By Arie Egozi


The Indian air force could equip its Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft with an off-the-shelf Israeli-made radar until a local version is manufactured.

Israel Aerospace Industries' subsidiary Elta Systems last year began talks with Indian companies that are involved in an effort to develop an indigenous radar for the Tejas, with the discussions linked to Elta's active electronically scanned array EL/M-2052.

India's defence ministry has appointed Hindustan Aeronautics to co-ordinate the effort, as the company has a wider co-operation agreement in place with IAI.

New Delhi's indigenous multimode radar programme has run into difficulties because of the technologies linked to it.

lta is completing the development of its EL/M-2052 system with a prototype being test flown using an IAI-owned Boeing 737 testbed. Elta claims that the long-range AESA fire control system is capable of detecting 64 targets, and of simultaneously engaging "several" using radar-guided missiles.

For ground surveillance, the design is capable of generating high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery and of detecting moving surface targets, and can also be used to support maritime surveillance tasks, says Elta.


----------



## zombie:-)

when is the production for IAF starting at HAL ... any news


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## heartwinlion

Deccan Herald - Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial

Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial 

DH News Service, New Delhi: 



After two decades of copious criticism from every quarter, the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready for its maiden flight trial in 2010. 



&#8220;We have completed all ground testing for the full engine and individual components. The first flight (in a light combat aircraft) is expected in early 2010,&#8221; T Mohana Rao, director of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, which is developing the engine, told Deccan Herald.

Way back in 1986, the Defence Ministry wanted to develop an indigenous gas turbine engine for the indigenous fighter, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which just got off from the drawing board. 

The decision led to the Kaveri programme, which was sanctioned in 1989 with an initial funding support of Rs 382.81 crore. 


Clueless scientists

But over the years, Kaveri exemplified everything that is wrong with Indian defence research. 

There was serious time and cost overrun and the programme was unable to meet many of its stated objectives. Many government and Parliamentary committees blamed the GTRE and the DRDO for India&#8217;s failure to have an indigenous engine for the fighter planes in time despite promises. 

On the eve of the flight trial, Rao said when they were assigned the critical task they had no clue about the difficulties and were literally groping in the dark. 

&#8220;We were thoroughly mistaken about the time. No one guided us. We were in dark along with our countrymen,&#8221; the GTRE chief admitted.

Rao confessed that there were flaws in the planning process when the project was conceived. 

&#8220;We were over-optimistic that in six to eight years time, we will be able to make a gas turbine engine from scratch. But it was a myth,&#8221; he said.

Almost for the first seventeen years, GTRE scientists had to work in isolation as there was hardly any outside consultation with other engine manufacturers. &#8220;We just had some hunch. Consultation started since the last three years,&#8221; he said.

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines. 

When the Kaveri programme was sanctioned in 1989, technical specifications were drawn out on the basis of a theoretical concept of the LCA. With the evolution of the LCA design, changes in the engine specifications were necessitated. Till date, GTRE made eight full engines and four core engines which do not have the low-pressure components and some other machinery. 

Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes. 

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.


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## haobam

just can'nt wait to see lca in combat


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## Screaming Skull

Hi guys,

There seems to be some serious confusion regarding the LCA project.

When the LCA project was taken up by DRDO, it s operational requirements were minimal and all requirements were well within DRDO's capabilities. Subsequently, lot of new developments happened that led to repeated upgrade of requirements from the part of the IAF. This seriously delayed the entire project. In fact till the mid 90s and early 2000 LCA was considered as a failed project by many in the IAF. It was when the first prototypes and TDs started flying, that the IAF really saw a potential in it. Till that all in IAF and the media were very sarcastic about it. Indeed, in AERO INDIA 2009 the LCA surprised many, including the top brasses of IAF and the MOD. Many realized that this unrealistic target of gate crashing into 4.5th gen aircraft set for DRDO will soon become a reality.

The LCA is very different from many conventional aircrafts. This is in keeping with the IAF s doctrine of greater radius of operation and super maneuverability for it s aircrafts. Only way to achieve this without vectored thrust is through the delta wing design. Thus, the delta wing design for the LCA (btw IAF pilots simply love the Mirage 2K. In fact they wanted to purchase 126 of them even without going for the MMRCA). Delta wing design is a very very complex technology. It makes the aircraft highly unstable, but achieves all the requirements of IAFs doctrine. In fact a great deal of training is required to fly these as it is solely up the pilot to extract 100% from the Delta design. One will be surprised to hear that the best IAF pilots fly the Miarge and not the MKI.

Also, the LCA is not simply a replacement for the Mig-21. It is expected to perform the dirty job of engaging the enemy aircraft in case of a dogfight. Thus, sch aircrafts must be cost effective and must be inducted in large nums to provide fighter escorts for other more expensive aircrafts. In case a dogfight becomes a necessity only LCA will be used. The IAF wont risk the MKIs/Mig-29 or Mirage for dog fights considering the higher costs. Again, this justifies the delta wing design. In a dogfight, a delta wing plane in the hands of a capable pilot is a very potent weapon.

The comparison of LCA withany other aircraft is simply not justifiable as different aircrafts are supposed to perform different activities. Therefore LCAvsJF-17 or LCAvsF-16 is simply foolish. LCA is there to just achieve one simple requirement of the IAF (Notice that DRDO is not wasting its time on any 4.5th gen MRCA but directly jumping to 5th gen MCA).

LCA is here to stay for a long long time. In this context one must look at LCA simply as a process and not as a product. What LCA has done to Indian aerospace industry is unimaginable. All the time when people and media kept debating about LCA as a product DRDO silently developed a whole industry around it. Believe it or not there are hundreds of small and big private and public sector companies catering to LCA in India. 

With just a small step with LCA development India has taken a huge leap forward in developing its own 5th gen fighter which btw will take less than half the time taken by LCA due to the experience gained. 

Another reason for so much negative publicity for LCA is due to the transparency of the whole project. While in countries like China and Pakistan defence projects are pursued with complete secrecy (in trerms of spending per project, duration, start and end time etc.), in India 90% of the projects must go through public audits. The reports of these audits are made available to anyone by the GOI. That is why every tom dick and harry in the wrld knows how much was spent on the projects and the status of projects etc. Media simply takes up these reports and kicks up a storm out of it. This is a very small pitfall of a democracy. But, really this shd be seen as a blessing in disguise as it increases accountability. 

The LCA is a very big achievement for a country like India. DRDO's efforts must be applauded rather than criticized. LCA has seen contributions from some of the greatest engineers and scientists of the country (some of the indian researchers boast of degress from MIT, Caltech, Berkeley etc. apart frm IITs and IISc). DRDO has truly gatecrashed into a big technological breakthru.


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## Screaming Skull

n btw the initial 40 orders for LCA-Mk1 is only to train the IAF pilots on this platform and get them accustomed to the LCA. Once Mk-2 s readythese pilots will directly graduate to that and the initial Mk-1 will be upgraded and thus will reduce any further delays.


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## heartwinlion

LCA has completed 1079 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-187,PV2-118,PV3-140,LSP1-45,LSP2-52). 
187th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 12th Mar 09. 
118th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 12th Mar 09. 
140th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 12th Mar 09.


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## vkurian

shchinese said:


> I wish all the best for the LCA project and I do hope LCA can be accepted into your airforce/navy in less than another 20 years.
> 
> same for the arjun.



Hey Like this....

A very refreshing attitude on this forum.

Hope we Indians and Pakistanis learn from you to appreciate each other once in a while.


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## macintosh

Post deleted


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1080 Test Flights successfully. (15-Mar-09).


LCA has completed 1080 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-187,PV2-118,PV3-141,LSP1-45,LSP2-52). 
141st flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 14th Mar 09.


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## Gabbar

*INSIDE TEJAS!!!*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1086 Test Flights successfully. (26-Mar-09).


LCA has completed 1086 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-187,PV2-119,PV3-144,LSP1-46,LSP2-53). 
53rd flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 25th Mar 09.


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## messenger

i think most pakistani brothers would not have known this that the present lca ( with ge404 ) _*will be able to take off with it maximum weight *_but will not be able to do some manouvers that are imp for dogfights .
so that means its still better than migs .
so that means that things are going in the right directions .


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## nitesh

The Hindu Business Line : BHPV heat exchangers for LCA now certified

BHPV heat exchangers for LCA now certified

Our Bureau

Visakhapatnam, March 30 *The Bharat Heavy Plate and Vessels (BHPV), which has developed eight types of compact heat exchangers for the Indian light combat aircraft (LCA), has been awarded the type certification,* according to a press release.

The certificate was handed over to Mr Om Prakash, Managing Director of the BHPV, by Mr K. Tamilmani, Chief Executive of the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, at a function in the BHPV here. The press release adds that the R&D wing of the BHPV here developed the heat exchangers in association with the Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. With the certification, BHPV, a subsidiary of the BHEL, is now identified as the sole manufacturer for the equipment for the LCA.


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## sms

LCA has completed 1093 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-190,PV2-120,PV3-144,LSP1-46,LSP2-56).


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## sms

LCA since conception....


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## BATMAN

messenger said:


> i think most pakistani brothers would not have known this that the present lca ( with ge404 ) _*will be able to take off with it maximum weight *_but will not be able to do some manouvers that are imp for dogfights .
> so that means its still better than migs .
> so that means that things are going in the right directions .



So on a positive note, if not IAF than LCA can be sold to DHL!
I see lot of sales potential..here


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## zombie:-)

BATMAN said:


> So on a positive note, if not IAF than LCA can be sold to DHL!
> I see lot of sales potential..here



stop TROLLING


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## Gabbar

BATMAN said:


> So on a positive note, if not IAF than LCA can be sold to DHL!
> I see lot of sales potential..here



*BATMAN you are a Elite Member, not a freshy. This does not suite you; trolling and ameture comments. *


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## heartwinlion

look at the 3D view of LCA

{E}vermotion - 3D models, textures, tutorials, architecture, 3D graphic, vray, 3ds max


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1096 Test Flights successfully. (28-Apr-09). 

LCA has completed 1096 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-190,PV2-120,PV3-144,LSP1-46,LSP2-59). 
59th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 27th Apr 09.


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## Screaming Skull

Don't know if these pics have been posted before. These are for all the fan boys to gorge on







Aircraft visualization of HAL TEJAS - fighter air force - Professional visualization

*Visualization of HAL TEJAS Indian air force fighter aircraft prototype. The image was used as an illustration in VTM Science magazine and subsequently also for creating the presentation poster in A2 format.*


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## Gabbar

> Don't know if these pics have been posted before. These are for all the fan boys to gorge on



*Yes, Indian army picture thread. Try posting all picture in that thread. *


----------



## LCA

India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft

*India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft *

Ajai Shukla / Bangalore May 02, 2009, 0:11 IST 



*With Indias home-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)  the Tejas  flying successfully through its testing process, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has now signed up for an indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). Within days, the IAF and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for Indias own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore.*


The MCAs design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); the National Aeronautics Laboratory (NAL); Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.

The director of ADA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, *The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule.*

According to Dr Subramaniam, *the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build five to six prototypes at a cost of Rs 5,000 crore. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA *programme.

With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tonnes), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be Indias first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tonnes); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tonnes plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crore. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.

By 2020, when the IAFs current fleet would have been largely phased out, *MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. *This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russias Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) *that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender*. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.

The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer. The ADA director points out, None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Forces F-22 Raptor.

Indias aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas LCA programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.

Says a senior MoD official: *With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level*.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LCA

best ever tejas video

watch those turn ,flips and many more.

may be u guies will notice that Tejas became almost invisible to naked eyes.

also analyise this video for g-turns


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## heartwinlion

LCA said:


> best ever tejas video
> 
> watch those turn ,flips and many more.
> 
> may be u guies will notice that Tejas became almost invisible to naked eyes.
> 
> also analyise this video for g-turns




does not open the link


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## Contrarian

LCA said:


> India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft
> 
> *India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft *
> 
> Ajai Shukla / Bangalore May 02, 2009, 0:11 IST
> 
> With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tonnes), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be Indias first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tonnes); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tonnes plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).


That is good. And this time round, any delay in the MCA program will be covered by induction of the MRCA, unlike this time round where the delay in LCA has reduced IAF sqdrns. Any delay in MCA would not have the same effect on IAF. MMRCA would still be filling up the numbers.



> Indias aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas LCA programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.
> 
> Says a senior MoD official: *With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level*.


Im really happy for this news. The Marut saga should not be repeated, the design and development effort would be lost if another program is not taken up after LCA. The industrial and research base setup is now well tuned to deliver products much faster than what it was when LCA was initiated.

And also, the pitfalls during LCA development would also be catered for. DRDO, HAL as well as MoD would have better project planning and management, this time around after the LCA lessons.


----------



## Screaming Skull

Don't know if these videos have been posted before. Please ignore if they are repeated.


----------



## LCA

heartwinlion said:


> does not open the link



Try this now


----------



## kingkong

*   The LCA can help India maintain 
it's anti-terrorism war, giving it's IAF superiority.*


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## Screaming Skull

*LCA-Tejas has completed 1101 Test Flights successfully. (07-May-09): ADA​*
* LCA has completed 1101 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-191,PV2-120,PV3-144,LSP1-48,LSP2-61).

* 191st flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 06th Apr 09.

* 48th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 06th Apr 09.

(07-May-09)Tejas-LCA


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## Screaming Skull

*Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas​*
New Delhi, May 11, 2009

After the Indian Air force almost wrote off the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), christened Tejas, due to its low power engine, the LCA is all set to make a comeback with the defence ministry ready to float a global tender, valued over Rs 3,300 crore ($660 mil), to purchase more powerful engines for the Aircrafts.

The current engine, General Electric F-404, fitted on the LCA restricts the aircrafts ability to carry out combat maneouvres with optimal weapons payload, as it does not deliver the required thrust.

European military aerospace engine consortium Eurojet Turbo and American company General Electric will be competing to supply 100 engines for the LCA. The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton, which meets the IAFs requirements.

The air force intends to induct some 140 (seven squadrons) light combat aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over the next decade. The first LCA squadron, however, will come with the underpowered American GE-404 engines that deliver a thrust of only 80-85 Kilo Newton.

IAF sources said fitting the heavier engines would require design changes in the airframe, which could take up to three to four years. Initial operational clearance for the LCA has is now expected in 2010.

Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas


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## dhaka

what is the extimated cost of LCA ?
bangladesh airforce will surly interested init .


----------



## SQ8

Screaming Skull said:


> *Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas​*
> New Delhi, May 11, 2009
> 
> After the Indian Air force almost wrote off the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), christened Tejas, due to its low power engine, the LCA is all set to make a comeback with the defence ministry ready to float a global tender, valued over Rs 3,300 crore ($660 mil), to purchase more powerful engines for the Aircrafts.
> 
> The current engine, General Electric F-404, fitted on the LCA restricts the aircrafts ability to carry out combat maneouvres with optimal weapons payload, as it does not deliver the required thrust.
> 
> European military aerospace engine consortium Eurojet Turbo and American company General Electric will be competing to supply 100 engines for the LCA. The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton, which meets the IAFs requirements.
> 
> The air force intends to induct some 140 (seven squadrons) light combat aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over the next decade. The first LCA squadron, however, will come with the underpowered American GE-404 engines that deliver a thrust of only 80-85 Kilo Newton.
> 
> IAF sources said fitting the heavier engines would require design changes in the airframe, which could take up to three to four years. Initial operational clearance for the LCA has is now expected in 2010.
> 
> Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas



Im glad they finally got the sense knocked into them to skip waiting for Kaveri and just make the damn thing fly with a better engine. come to think of it.. If they get the Ge-414.. makes for an Interesting package if the Indians order the super hornet. Same engine on two fighters.. VERY VERY big savings..


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## heartwinlion

dhaka said:


> what is the extimated cost of LCA ?
> bangladesh airforce will surly interested init .



I think it come into lca mk2 25-30m$ with new engine & ASEA radar


----------



## Jako

heartwinlion said:


> I think it come into lca mk2 25-30m$ with new engine & ASEA radar



wow ...lca with aesa......when did that happen....and when will india get such a prototype,leave alone export....


----------



## heartwinlion

Jako said:


> wow ...lca with aesa......when did that happen....and when will india get such a prototype,leave alone export....



from my point of view there are there work which need to be done 
1. wepeon testing -- is in under process
2. radar testing -- under process

and after the ioc the final new engine weather it is ge414 or ej200


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## Jako

heartwinlion said:


> from my point of view there are there work which need to be done
> 1. wepeon testing -- is in under process
> 2. radar testing -- under process
> 
> and after the ioc the final new engine weather it is ge414 or ej200



yes right,but like the engine,has there been any kind of steps taken in the aesa procurement.......and what radar is currently used in the lca?? Plz,also give the specifications of the present radar...thnx


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## heartwinlion

Jako said:


> yes right,but like the engine,has there been any kind of steps taken in the aesa procurement.......and what radar is currently used in the lca?? Plz,also give the specifications of the present radar...thnx



I think it will be EL/2052 ASEA

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## Screaming Skull

IAI is custom building its EL/M-2052 - Active Phased Array Airborne Fire Control Radar according to IAF specifications for LCA in Israel. They will take about a year and a half to deliver it to HAL before HAL seeks IOC from IAF.

Here is a 'The Hindu' article confirming this development.

The Hindu : National : LCA to be fitted with Israeli multi-mode radar

For specs of the EL/M-2052 refer the following links. This is the most advanced AESA radar Israel has ever built.

EL/M-2052 AESA Radar

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd.

​


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## ironman

But in AeroIndia 2009 its confirmed that current block will be fitted with EL/M 2032(with an Indian antenna) . Only LCA Mk2 variant is going to equipped with Elta EL/M 2052.


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## Screaming Skull

*LCA induction into IAF likely by 2010: Air Chief​*
Monday, May 18, 2009

Bangalore: *The induction of first squadron of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to Indian Air Force (IAF) can take place by the end of 2010 or the beginning of 2011 with regular persuasion and monitoring of the LCA programme, the Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said.*

The Chief of Air Staff during his farewell visit to Aeronautical Development Agency recently said: IAF is on the transformation stage in the matter of gaining overall capabilities, with the help of organisations such as DRDO, ADA, HAL and other partners.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been a part of IAFs endeavour to attain indigenous status in getting what is required for the nations security.

An official release said that the *Chief of Air Staff was affirmative that the ongoing LCA programme would further lead to LCA mark II, MCA and many other projects of self- reliance nature by sprinkling lot of patriotism around.*

Earlier, P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director (CA) and Director of ADA welcomed the gathering. M. Natarajan, the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and Chief of DRDO spoke on the LCA programme and the contribution of the Indian Air Force. D. Banerjee, Chief Controller, DRDO, presented a memento to the Air Chief. Top officials from the HAL, the DRDO and other participating agencies were present. 

The Hindu : National : LCA induction into IAF likely by 2010: Air Chief


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## gubbi

What are the changes or upgrades to be incorporated in LCA MkII?

I would definitely love to see, on the outside, a longer fuselage with more internal fuel capacity, CFTs, rectangular air intakes/dsi intakes, forward canards, radar deflecting surfaces, increased payload and last but not the least a single piece canopy - like the F-16.


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1113 Test Flights successfully. (20-May-09).


LCA has completed 1113 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-193,PV2-124,PV3-144,LSP1-48,LSP2-66). 
193rd flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 19th May 09. 
66th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 19th May 09.


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1118 Test Flights successfully. (26-May-09).

(26-May-09)Tejas-LCA

* LCA has completed 1118 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-196,PV2-124,PV3-144,LSP1-48,LSP2-68).
* 196th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 25th May 09.
* 68th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 25th May 09.


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## heartwinlion

India readies its light combat aircraft - upiasia.com

India readies its light combat aircraft 

Toronto, ON, Canada, &#8212; Take lightweight composite materials and build a very capable airframe. To this, add a highly advanced avionics suite from Israel, a U.S.-made high-thrust engine for Mach 2 capability, a 23-mm rapid-fire gun and an array of Indian and Russian air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. The end product is a lightweight, fourth-generation dogfighter combat jet. This is India&#8217;s newest fighter aircraft.
The aircraft will replace the aging but highly capable MiG-21s in India&#8217;s inventory. Priced at US$20-25 million, it will appeal to third world air forces looking for value at affordable prices. 

In his &#8220;Fighter Planes 1960-2002,&#8221; Lemoine Julien describes the Indian light combat aircraft: &#8220;The fighter has been designed to match the demands of modern combat scenario of speed, acceleration, maneuverability and agility. It also incorporates modern design concepts like static instability, digital fly by wire, modern avionics, multi-mode radar &#8230; etc.&#8221;

India&#8217;s project is unlike a similar one by China that is greatly disadvantaged by an Israeli-designed frame and other parts reverse engineered with Russian and U.S. technologies, making it difficult to sell outside China&#8217;s sphere of influence. Most countries prefer to buy original technologies.

In the next 20 years, 4,000 combat aircraft of all designs are due for replacement all over the world. The timing is perfect for India&#8217;s light combat aircraft, which is currently undergoing trials. It is expected to be inducted into India&#8217;s air force in 2010 and available for export five years later. Flying the Indian Air Force&#8217;s colors successfully will be a reassurance to future buyers. 

The label of light combat aircraft is mainly due to materials in the airframe. Its loaded weight is expected to be 11 tons, while that of a medium combat aircraft is 15 tons. The aircraft is comparable to fighters like the F-16, F-18, Rafael, Grippen, Su-30, and Eurofighter, which have superior metal airframes. Therefore they have been around much longer and perform the dual role of a bomber as well. They are priced in the US$40 to $60 million range. 

A heavy combat aircraft fully loaded and fueled weighs above 20 tons. The Russian-built Sukhoi-MK1, supplied to India, is in this category and is the world&#8217;s best. Its Israeli-supplied avionics and most advanced Russian missiles helped it beat the U.S. F-15 and F-16 fighter jets in simulated combat. This got the U.S. Air Force so concerned that it asked to speed up the development of the superior F-22 Raptor. 

The project, conceived in 1985, received its first government funding only in 1993. Its maiden flight was on Jan. 4, 2001. In between, its development was grounded when former U.S. President Bill Clinton ordered sanctions on India after it conducted a nuclear test in 1998. Engine integration to the aircraft was held up and so was the software developed for its avionics suite. It was a two-year setback. 

Since its maiden flight in 2001 a number of models have been built and locally developed engines have been tested. Also, integrating several technologies from different sources has been successfully undertaken. Its weapons integration and high altitude airfield usage was recently undertaken. Its weapons suite is one of the most modern and original, designed to scare enemy ranks. 

Enemy missiles cannot catch the aircraft because its composite material prevents a missile lock. Also its lightweight and high-thrust engines give it better maneuverability than the J-10 or Pakistan&#8217;s version of the JF-17 Thunder. 

Its design philosophy is reminiscent of the Indian-made Gnat fighter, which in 1965 played havoc with the much-touted U.S.-built F-86 Saber jet. The latter was heavy and had difficulty chasing the very light and highly maneuverable Gnat fighters. Saber&#8217;s missiles would fly off the mark, as the Gnat turned and spiraled away on the dime. 

Although Pakistan claimed to have shot down a number of Gnat fighters in the 1965 war with India, this was pure marketing propaganda for the Americans, who were selling the Saber jets in the world market and needed some outlandish claims.

What the Pakistanis shot down on the first day of the war were subsonic Vampire fighters of World War II vintage. The Vampires were sent to bust Pakistan&#8217;s tank columns heading toward Jammu in India. The Pakistanis incorrectly labeled the Vampires as Gnats. 

The versatility of the light combat aircraft is in its modern heads-up display and hands-on throttle and stick, which provide accurate targeting information and reduce pilot fatigue during combat. Fly by wire is an added advantage during a dogfight.

The state-of-the-art multi-mode radar, laser designator pod, forward-looking infrared and other optima electronic sensors provide the pilot very accurate targeting information. An advanced electronic warfare suite gives it a high survivability factor during deep penetration into enemy territory. A 32-bit processor provides mission control and flight management. 

It also carries the world&#8217;s best R-73 missile of Russian origin. Its wings have three hard points each and one extra under the fuselage to carry a variety of bombs and missiles. Its high-performance radar gives it a beyond-visual-range missile attack capability. Its total weapons payload is 4,000 kilograms, which is high in its own class. 

The Chinese J-10 is basically Israeli designed and the cancelled &#8220;Lavi&#8221; fighter. It is another lightweight fighter in the market and has all the right design characteristics except for some of its avionics. The other electronics and weapon systems are pirated copies. China watchers have classified it as a bit higher than a third-generation aircraft based on original technologies by the Israelis in its design and development. Later, China added copied technologies but failed to impress analysts.

China&#8217;s light combat aircraft are similarly priced as their Indian counterparts at US$25-30 million.

The Pakistani-Chinese designed version of the JF-17 Thunder is a cost-effective light combat aircraft with a price tag under US$20 million and a poorer cousin of the J-10. 

India is not yet ready to export its light combat aircraft, as only prototypes have flown. The first combat squadron may begin service in the Indian Air Force in 2010-11. In comparison, the Chinese J-10 has been in service for the past three years. The Pakistani JF-17 Thunder is an unnecessary waste of money, for prestige only. While China&#8217;s advantage of early delivery is now over, air forces of the world will nevertheless watch both Chinese and Indian aircraft before they make a decision.

None of the planes discussed above have flown in combat, which is their true test. That may not happen for a long time, however, as the presence of a fourth-generation fighter in any nation&#8217;s inventory may act as a peacemaker.

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## Screaming Skull

*LCA-Tejas has completed total 1123 test flights successfully* 

(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-199,PV2-125,PV3-144,LSP1-49,LSP2-68)

Aeronautical Development Agency


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## Marc

WebMaster said:


> Ok, so the super duper LCA. The worlds most advanced fighter. Is it flown by the kaveri engine yet? Did the super duper intelligent scientists of India were able to configure the fly by wire software? I am unknown to this.
> 
> 
> 
> Stealth too?
> 
> Also Adux, what if i did show you that Chinese will acquire JF-17 even though i have mentioned that PLAAF has more than 1000+ aircrafts to replace, put up around 48% of effort in R&D and finance, and the list goes on.
> 
> Will you still deny?



The reason behind this is China aims to defend US instead of any other countries like India, Japan, or even Taiwan. The so called first island Chain on China's eastern border. For aircraft program, The LCA has been delayed. and don't forget what LCA stands for. a light combat aircraft. It is not equal to what China has been producing such as J-10, and J11B which is based on Su-27. Moreover, J10B is about to release sooner or later. it appears that China follows US aircraft development pattern, instead of its conventional Russian way. The engine problem is what bothering Chinese engineers, their WS engine is just like LCA has been delayed. But for sure they will be able to solve problem. After that, God knows what CHinese is going to build.


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## Screaming Skull

*LCA-Tejas has completed total 1135 test flights successfully* 

(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-204,PV2-125,PV3-144,LSP1-51,LSP2-73)

Aeronautical Development Agency


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## heartwinlion

Screaming Skull said:


> *LCA-Tejas has completed total 1135 test flights successfully*
> 
> (TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-204,PV2-125,PV3-144,LSP1-51,LSP2-73)
> 
> Aeronautical Development Agency


Do u have any detail about the test coze last time i read the news back in feb about dump bomb testing after that only flight testing result come but no further detail and what about weapon testing & mmr integration which happened in March any new about that.......


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## Screaming Skull

*LCA to do star turn, set to take to night skies​*
13 Jun 2009

BANGALORE: *The indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is on its way to achieving a major milestone in the next few days as a prototype of the aircraft will take to the skies by night. A prototype of the aircraft is expected to carry out extensive night flying activity over Bangalores skies to demonstrate its night flying capability next week*, sources told Express.

The fly by night will be the second, since the LCA programme was launched in 1983 and its maiden flight in 2001 and is considered a significant test as the technology development agency, the Aeronautical D e v e l o p m e n t Agency (ADA), hopes to get the initial operational clearance before it is inducted into the Indian Air Force by 2010, which plans to have seven LCA squadrons.

The Prototype Vehicle- 3 (PV-3) in November last year took to the skies by night and carried out a set of predetermined manoeuvres to demonstrate its night capability.

ADA had termed the maiden night flying as a flawless flight which will pave the way for systems and weapon integration for delivery by night.

*The second fly by night will take place with one of the prototype vehicle sporting new systems for which the ADA, National Flight Testing Centre, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) and Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) have been making preparations.*

The LCA has so far completed 1,135 test flights successfully as on June 11 and *has been successfully operated from searing hot central Indian airfields at the height of summer as well as the cold environs of a Ladakh winter.*

LCA to do star turn, set to take to night skies


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## Screaming Skull

heartwinlion said:


> Do u have any detail about the test coze last time i read the news back in feb about dump bomb testing after that only flight testing result come but no further detail and what about weapon testing & mmr integration which happened in March any new about that.......



Hi heartwinlion,

Hope the above report answers some of your questions. The LCA has also successfully fired BVRs. In fact I think I have posted some videos on this thread of LCA firing BVRs. However, these are very preliminary tests as the radar has still not been integrated. A comprehensive trial will be conducted once the radar is integrated.

Btw watch out for news on LCA Navy before the year end or early next year. Two prototypes are being developed, one will be a trainer and other will be a full combat version. A test facility is also being built in Goa mocking the indigenous AC flight deck. The take off in LCA navy will be fully automated! ie the take off will be on auto pilot mode!!! Design wise it will be very similar to the AF LCA with some structural modifications. The nose will be lowered to offer better viewing of the flight deck for the pilot.

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## proud_indian

Screaming Skull

any update regarding progress of MK2


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## proud_indian

Screaming Skull

any update regarding progress of MK2


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## Screaming Skull

proud_indian said:


> Screaming Skull
> 
> any update regarding progress of MK2



Hi proud_indian,

First priority for ADA is to get IOC for Mk-I from IAF and CEMILAC. LCA Mk-I will be underpowered with GE F-404. It will not cover the entire flight envelope as specified by the IAF. It will struggle at lower and higher mach. The Mk-I will still be far superior to any of the Migs we operate btw! The LCA will get FOC only with the Mk-2 version, where it will be expected to cover the entire flight envelope with a better engine in either EF-200 (frontrunner) or GE F-414 and Elta EL/M-2052 AESA radar. Mk-2 is expected to enter service only with the first batch of MRCA in 2014-2015. The MRCA itself is very important for Mk-2 as the winner is also expected to provide some sort of consultancy in order to trim the excessive weight problems of LCA. EADS and Mig are ready for that provided we go for the EF or Mig-35. Let s wait and watch!


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## anathema

Screaming Skull said:


> The take off in LCA navy will be fully automated! ie the take off will be on auto pilot mode!!!



That is very impressive if true.....where did you get that info from ?


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## Keysersoze

Screaming Skull said:


> Hi heartwinlion,
> 
> . The LCA has also successfully fired BVRs. In fact I think I have posted some videos on this thread of LCA firing BVRs.
> .



I would like to see these video's. If there is no radar then I doubt they fired anything. the only vid is the R-73 test. Which the ADA site says is a "close range missile"


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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> The LCA will get FOC only with the Mk-2 version, where it will be expected to cover the entire flight envelope with a better engine in either EF-200 (frontrunner) or GE F-414 and Elta EL/M-2052 AESA radar. Mk-2 is expected to enter service only with the first batch of MRCA in 2014-2015. The MRCA itself is very important for Mk-2 as the winner is also expected to provide some sort of consultancy in order to trim the excessive weight problems of LCA. EADS and Mig are ready for that provided we go for the EF or Mig-35. Let s wait and watch!


Isn't EADS already selected as the consultancy partner to fix LCAs weight problems? 
Also is it fixed that the Mk 2 version will get Elta 2052 radar, or only a possibilty? Because if we already can get commonality with MMRCA winner on the engine side, why not also on the radar side?

Imo the N-LCA development at the moment is totally unnecessary and causes only delays and costs! Without a highter thrust engine and less weight it can't takeoff. That means we can't produce it before Mk2 is ready, so why that development in between?
We already ordered 16 Mig 29K and around the same number of Sea Harrier were upgraded to be ins service till 2020, so where is the need?
The main fighter on our indigenous carriers will also be Mig 29K, or maybe Rafale/F18SH, so where is the need of that development for only a few numbers?
Not to mention that it will be a less useful fighter anyway, because of less and limited payload that a single engine LCA with ski-jump take off can carry.
Again a typical example for me that we want too much, too fast!


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## heartwinlion

I don&#8217;t think the future of N-LCA coze it has lower payload and also navy want small no. maybe around 30-50 plane navy maybe going to order more Mig-29K then we don&#8217;t need N-lca by 2015 we have 2 carrier which have the capacity of around 40-50 plane which fulfill by Mig-29 and Harrier. 3AC not come before 2020 at that time we have option to go for F-35 (navy interested), MCA or FGFA. What we need just speed up our lca project and complete at time.


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## heartwinlion

*FOR LCA LOVER*


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## Screaming Skull

anathema said:


> That is very impressive if true.....where did you get that info from ?



Straight from the horse's mouth, LCA Navy project director, Wg Cdr. Balaji himself.


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## Screaming Skull

Keysersoze said:


> I would like to see these video's. If there is no radar then I doubt they fired anything. the only vid is the R-73 test. Which the ADA site says is a "close range missile"



The R-73 comes closest to a BVR with an operational range of close to 30km. However, as you rightly pointed out it is still a short range missile with no radar assistance. It is basically a heat seeking missile. But, you must understand that these tests are not to verify the performance of the radar or the missile but the aircraft itself. Hence, firing an R-73 comes closest to firing a BVR if one has to analyze the post firing dynamics and stability of the aircraft.


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## garibnawaz

LCA Tejas latest pic


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## heartwinlion

LCA-Tejas has completed 1139 Test Flights successfully. (20-June-09).


LCA has completed 1139 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-204,PV2-125,PV3-144,LSP1-52,LSP2-76). 
76th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 19th June 09.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Beautiful bird, the LCA Tejas that is.

Do you know who fears India's development??? It's not Pakistan nor China. It is Australia, Europe, and America that fears India's rise the most. China NEVER blocked the 1-2-3 nuke deal (contrary to India Media). I was there and following the events.

There has been lots of chatter in Pakistan about "India Collapsing", and in India about "Pakistan Collapsing", but no such non-sense in China. Do you understand why??? China understands that unstable neighbors are not good. If your neighbors are prosperous you will be better off. Who would want to be surrounding by a bunch of idiots or fanatics?! A house is more valuable if it is in a good neighborhood. That is Chinese thinking. It is NOT a zero-sum game.


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## BSF

OFF TOPIC but



> China NEVER blocked the 1-2-3 nuke deal (contrary to India Media). I was there and following the events.



Link please.



> It is Australia, Europe, and America that fears India's rise the most.



Wouldn't it be easier for them not to give us the nuclear deal.....Don't you think ?


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## heartwinlion

dumb bomb test


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## Salik

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Beautiful bird, the LCA Tejas that is.
> 
> *Do you know who fears India's development??? It's not Pakistan nor China. It is Australia, Europe, and America that fears India's rise the most. *China NEVER blocked the 1-2-3 nuke deal (contrary to India Media). I was there and following the events.
> 
> There has been lots of chatter in Pakistan about "India Collapsing", and in India about "Pakistan Collapsing", but no such non-sense in China. Do you understand why??? China understands that unstable neighbors are not good. If your neighbors are prosperous you will be better off. Who would want to be surrounding by a bunch of idiots or fanatics?! A house is more valuable if it is in a good neighborhood. That is Chinese thinking. It is NOT a zero-sum game.





Can you give some figures which European country fears Indias development and which American country? What is their volume of trade, ratio of import and export, balance of payment favorable or not? India is in transition process from agriculture to industry. Europe is not a single country; India has different relations with each and every country.

In your intro thread you made serious attacks on Americansnow youre involving Europe and Australia collectively... again blind statements to provoke differences between China and rest of the world!


Despite several notices you havent corrected your country and location flag

You are using China for trolling and this is serious offence!

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## anathema

LCA?s final prototype to take off soon


Some great news early morning.......PV5 is going to take to the skies sooon ......................

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## sajidkhan

hey anathema! why are u so happy! i dont understand.. u guyz tend to compare lca with jf-17! OMG!jf-17 is a 4 gen aircraft n d lca aircraft is being buit to remove the aiging migs of ur airforce! so ofcourse it cant be a 4 gen jet like jf-17!
jf-17 represents the new technology the paf has! i agree u hav d mki bt we will soon have j-10 a superior aircraft than the sukhoi! yea yea!


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## dave

sajidkhan time will tell what we have in LCA.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

dave said:


> sajidkhan time will tell what we have in LCA.



Is the issue with the under performance of the GE404 and heavy frame solved? Just curious. By the way, the Tejas is pretty.


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## sajidkhan

oh! dat time only goes on...5 years more perhaps!
till dat we will have more jf-a7 than ur tejas!
n olso j-10!
boy nly u think dat time will cm! haha


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## sancho

sajidkhan said:


> hey anathema! why are u so happy! i dont understand.. u guyz tend to compare lca with jf-17! OMG!jf-17 is a 4 gen aircraft n d lca aircraft is being buit to remove the aiging migs of ur airforce! so ofcourse it cant be a 4 gen jet like jf-17!
> jf-17 represents the new technology the paf has! i agree u hav d mki bt we will soon have j-10 a superior aircraft than the sukhoi! yea yea!


And do you think JF 17 will have new techs that LCA won't have? Both are same gen fighter in design and techs, it will be interesting to see and compare the second block of JF 17 and LCA together.


SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Is the issue with the under performance of the GE404 and heavy frame solved? Just curious. By the way, the Tejas is pretty.


The Mk2 version won't have the GE 404 engine, it might depend on who win MMRCA but it will get GE 414 with over 100Kn thrust, or EJ 200 with 90 - 100 Kn thrust and TVC capabilities.
Not sure how far the weight problem is solved, but HAL gets assistens of EADS on that, lets wait and see what the first specs of the new prototype says.


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## anathema

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Is the issue with the under performance of the GE404 and heavy frame solved? Just curious. By the way, the Tejas is pretty.



GE404 is performing as per expectations. The problem was with LCA getting overweight (change in IAF's requirements). So to power this overweight LCA, GE404 was inadequate; Hence India is looking forward to either GE414 or EJ2000 ( As sancho pointed out). But those will intergrated in Mk2 version along with some more changes.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

sancho said:


> And do you think JF 17 will have new techs that LCA won't have? Both are same gen fighter in design and techs, it will be interesting to see and compare the second block of JF 17 and LCA together.
> 
> The Mk2 version won't have the GE 404 engine, it might depend on who win MMRCA but it will get GE 414 with over 100Kn thrust, or EJ 200 with 90 - 100 Kn thrust and TVC capabilities.
> Not sure how far the weight problem is solved, but HAL gets assistens of EADS on that, lets wait and see what the first specs of the new prototype says.



Thank you for your polite reply. I am glad you didn't respond full of emotions or fan boyism. I'm looking forward to the Tejas.

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## anathema

sajidkhan said:


> hey anathema! why are u so happy! i dont understand.. u guyz tend to compare lca with jf-17! OMG!jf-17 is a 4 gen aircraft n d lca aircraft is being buit to remove the aiging migs of ur airforce! so ofcourse it cant be a 4 gen jet like jf-17!
> jf-17 represents the new technology the paf has! i agree u hav d mki bt we will soon have j-10 a superior aircraft than the sukhoi! yea yea!



Sajidkhan,

How old are you ? Seriously you are a kid right...and why are you thinking about who's longer, mine or yours....I am happy because its combat aircraft made by India, its designed by India , Its made for India...Yes we have had problems with it but who doesnt , the learning curve and self reliance more than makes up for the problems that we encoutered while developing this beauty.

Suggest you to read about LCA , JF17 , J10 and su 30 . Then make some credible posts rather posting fanboy stuff.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> The Mk2 version won't have the GE 404 engine, it might depend on who win MMRCA but it will get GE 414 with over 100Kn thrust, or EJ 200 with 90 - 100 Kn thrust and TVC capabilities.
> Not sure how far the weight problem is solved, but HAL gets assistens of EADS on that, lets wait and see what the first specs of the new prototype says.



Assistance that EADS will be providing is not for weight. It would be reduce to Testing time. Plan is to chart out appropriate test plans to reduce the time for IOC. There were some talks about BaE and EADS helping to reduce weight but that i belive is scrapped since LCA will be powered with a more pwoerful engine.


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## anathema

A very nice webiste for LCA followers. 

http://www.lca-tejas.org/


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## anathema

Salik said:


> Can you give some figures which European country fears Indias development and which American country? What is their volume of trade, ratio of import and export, balance of payment favorable or not? India is in transition process from agriculture to industry. Europe is not a single country; India has different relations with each and every country.
> 
> In your intro thread you made serious attacks on Americansnow youre involving Europe and Australia collectively... again blind statements to provoke differences between China and rest of the world!
> 
> 
> Despite several notices you havent corrected your country and location flag
> 
> You are using China for trolling and this is serious offence!




Salik,

I dont think he is actually saying those nations are scared about india's capabilities. That would be rubbish to say. But people is worried about India's development capabilities in terms of Business. If any country develops a system on its own it represents loss of incom e for some other country. Hence you will find (everywhere in world), the moment India starts development or is well on its way to developing a product, nations such as US, Europe, etc will offer better products to Indian armed forces. This creates tension between armed forces and scientists; since Armed forces always want the best equipment and scientists well are scientists. 

A recent example to note would be PAAD testing that India had done. The moment the 3rd test became succesfull, US started showing interest in offering Patriot systems (this was never the case before)...

I guess the point is you can negotiate only from a point of strength. If the world sees that you are able to develop a platform on own , they will think "Its better to offer our products now and kill the development rather than later when he wont have any use for it"....


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## sajidkhan

i am not a kid!
in this thread i read many views abt which 1 is better!
lca on paper is classified as a 4.5 gen aircraft!!
do u think india can straight away bulild a 4.5 gen jet?
acc to iaf it is meant to replace ur migs! rit?
and our jf-17 would meet the tactical and strategic needs of air forces of developing countries! can the tejas be used for offensive measures?? like jf!
the jf-17 is powerd by Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine!
u had kaveri! .. its probs .. we ol no!
reply to ques anathema!


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## anathema

sajidkhan said:


> i am not a kid!
> in this thread i read many views abt which 1 is better!




Sajid, Its a Forum . People come and Go and everybody has a different opinion. JF 17 is not active and neither is LCA , Both have been in development for quite some time and has faced problems. How can you say one is better and other is not.





sajidkhan said:


> lca on paper is classified as a 4.5 gen aircraft!!



Yes so.



sajidkhan said:


> do u think india can straight away bulild a 4.5 gen jet?



Why cant it build ? Any reasons !!! Sajid, India has a very good Industrial base and it has built the technical know how after years and years of labourious and painstaking research. It did not happen suddenly.



sajidkhan said:


> acc to iaf it is meant to replace ur migs! rit?



So ....Does it mean capability wise it needs to be equal to Mig 21 ?? Whats the whole point then , we might as well not retire Mig 21. LCA would replace Mig 21 and would act as a point defence as well as a multi role aircraft.





sajidkhan said:


> and our jf-17 would meet the tactical and strategic needs of air forces of developing countries! can the tejas be used for offensive measures?? like jf!



Yes, why not. Tejas is a multi-role aircraft. It can serve in any type of mission that IAF envisages and conceives , atleast that is the idea. Primary mission for it would be to act as a point defence aircraft. Some more additional information, LCA is currently undergoing weapon trails of Air to Ground and after that it would Air to Air weapon trials. 




sajidkhan said:


> the jf-17 is powerd by Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine!



LCA is powered by GE 404 engine and mk 2 will be powered by GE414 or EJ2000. So what is the question ? Kaveri has been under development and it is facing problems , India is facing some problems in crystal blade technology. Do note even China is facing problems for its WAS 10 (i believe) engine. Its a very complex piece of engineering.


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## sancho

anathema said:


> Assistance that EADS will be providing is not for weight. It would be reduce to Testing time. Plan is to chart out appropriate test plans to reduce the time for IOC. There were some talks about BaE and EADS helping to reduce weight but that i belive is scrapped since LCA will be powered with a more pwoerful engine.


This is what I meant:


> January 28, 2009, (Sawf News) - ADA has sought assistance from EADS to redesign the Tejas undercarriage and help reduce the weight of the fighter, which is already 1.5 tons heavier than envisaged.
> 
> Under a $20 million, four year deal EADS will help Tejas get final operational clearance for the LCA Tejas.



ADA seeks EADS aid to speed up Tejas LCA project


sajidkhan said:


> i am not a kid!
> in this thread i read many views abt which 1 is better!
> lca on paper is classified as a 4.5 gen aircraft!!
> do u think india can straight away bulild a 4.5 gen jet?
> acc to iaf it is meant to replace ur migs! rit?
> and our jf-17 would meet the tactical and strategic needs of air forces of developing countries! can the tejas be used for offensive measures?? like jf!
> the jf-17 is powerd by Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine!
> u had kaveri! .. its probs .. we ol no!
> reply to ques anathema!


I also request you to at least google and read something about it before you build your opinion! 

Yes LCA is build to replace Mig 21, but that doesn't mean it will be only use that old techs. It will replace them by numbers but will have latest techs like (for Mk2 version) AESA radar, BVR missiles, new engine with latest techs (EJ 200 should make LCA supercruise capable and offers TVC), fly by wire, glass cockpit and so on. It is designed as for air defense as an interceptor, that's why it is light and should be very maneuverablem but it will be a multi role aircraft. It already is in the weapon testing phase. Kaveri engine is under developent and offers at the moment nearly the same thrust as RD 93, but that was not enough for IAF requirement (90 - 95Kn) . That's why the first engine will be a foreign and Kaveri will be inducted later.
Once again, both will be 4. - 4,5 gen fighters with similar techs!


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## sajidkhan

ok..
bt plz can u tel me ur sukhoi-30mki is olso clasified as a 4.5 gen aircraft!! bt it is ur frontline fighter!
so y not lca file a similar role like the mki??
acc to sources IAF will induct 1st squardon by2010 in tn!
y not in assam frm were the sukhoiz are operating to counter chinese threat! both are sam gen aircraft!


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## BSF

Don't feed the troll people ..Don't feed the troll


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## linkinpark

[video=google;4503725423837794418]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4503725423837794418[/video]


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## heartwinlion

sajidkhan said:


> ok..
> bt plz can u tel me ur sukhoi-30mki is olso clasified as a 4.5 gen aircraft!! bt it is ur frontline fighter!
> so y not lca file a similar role like the mki??
> acc to sources IAF will induct 1st squardon by2010 in tn!
> y not in assam frm were the sukhoiz are operating to counter chinese threat! both are sam gen aircraft!



Dear Sajid MKI is 4.5++ gen heavy fighters in its class it can carry around (6000-8000kg) different type of weapon a2g, a2a or a2s. and with internal fuel 5000k.m and one time refueling it can go 8000km. ....... for more information go :- 
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## heartwinlion

LCA PV-5 twin seater first flight soon..

IDRW.ORG Blog Archive LCA PV-5 twin seater first flight soon..

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme has achieved another significant breakthrough as its final prototype vehicle PV-5 will soon take to the skies. The PV-5, one of the five prototype vehicles developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency is ready with the Engine Ground Run currently being carried on.

Defence Research and Development Organisation sources told Express that the Engine Ground Run for the PV-5, a two-seat trainer prototype is currently being carried out, before it can be certified to fly.

&#8220;The Engine Ground Run precedes the low-speed taxi trial and the high speed taxi-trials, following which the first flight of the aircraft will take place,&#8221; said sources. &#8220;Once the weather improves the taxi trial will be carried and so will the first flight of the PV-5,&#8221; sources added.

Unlike the other four prototypes (PV-1, PV-2,PV-3,PV-4) and the two technology demonstrator (TD-1 and TD-2) aircraft, the PV-5 apart from being a two-seat trainer version of the LCA will be identical to the fighter.

It will be fully combat capable and could be used in that role.

The LCA has completed 1,141 Test Flights successfully as on June 25.

ADA, the technology development agency for the indigenous LCA programme, hopes to get the Initial Operational Clearance before being inducted in the IAF by 2010. IAF plans to have seven LCA squadrons.


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## Munir

It was planned to fly in march... According to AFM a year ago...


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## Munir

linkinpark said:


> lca,indian fighter, indian airforce fighter,jet aircraft,



I find the documentary onsided and unrealistic. I agree that it is a step forward for a nation to produce its own planes and certainly fighterjets but it is an average plane that will replace Mig21. And even that is still a if cause we need to beyond flying a few G's and straight lines... Ok, I have to admit that it is rude cause it did roll pretty fast. Let us wait a few years and make a documentary... Just like how did Arjun perform against EL Khaled.


----------



## sancho

Munir said:


> I find the documentary onsided and unrealistic. I agree that it is a step forward for a nation to produce its own planes and certainly fighterjets but it is an average plane that will replace Mig21. And even that is still a if cause we need to beyond flying a few G's and straight lines... Ok, I have to admit that it is rude cause it did roll pretty fast. Let us wait a few years and make a documentary... Just like how did Arjun perform against EL Khaled.


The Mk1 version is average, because it's nothing much more than a prototype, or trainer version (less engine thrust for IAF requirements, weight problems and radar not ready). But with the techs that will be inducted in the Mk2 version(AESA radar, high power engine, maybe TVC) it will be a totally different thing and might be more than a match for JF17.
For India it was definetely the right move, like Dhruv was on the helicopter side. It will improve the aerospace industry and make IAF less reliable of other nations. The problems we are facing are nothing special, China and western countries had the same too and this is Indias first step.


----------



## maverick2009

The LCA is a massive step for indian aero engineering. India now has the personal the tech base and the technology to build in house cvomposite built fighters. 

Even if LCA takes time its almost irrelevent.

India is building the tech base for future MCA 5th gen fighters and UCV in the future

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sidharth

maverick2009 said:


> The LCA is a massive step for indian aero engineering. India now has the personal the tech base and the technology to build in house cvomposite built fighters.
> 
> Even if LCA takes time its almost irrelevent.
> 
> India is building the tech base for future MCA 5th gen fighters and UCV in the future



Yes i agree! 
yes it had engine problems and other delyas but never the less it is a step forward for India in aeronautical engineering.


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## King Julien

Munir said:


> *I find the documentary onsided and unrealistic. *I agree that it is a step forward for a nation to produce its own planes and certainly fighterjets but it is an average plane that will replace Mig21. And even that is still a if cause we need to beyond flying a few G's and straight lines... Ok, I have to admit that it is rude cause it did roll pretty fast. Let us wait a few years and make a documentary... Just like how did Arjun perform against EL Khaled.



unrealistic?? just because its Indian LCA?? 
do you really believe its just an average fighter?? 
i really wonder what will you tag JF-17 comparing LCA & JF-17 configuration.


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## Haanzo

King Julien said:


> unrealistic?? just because its Indian LCA??
> do you really believe its just an average fighter??
> i really wonder what will you tag JF-17 comparing LCA & JF-17 configuration.



jf-17 is a 4gen aircraft able to whip a 4.5 gen planes A.SS hence 4.5 gen planes are useless 

please lets stop this madness as MK once said these kind of posts lack sanity


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## Screaming Skull

Latest LCA pics!!







*Photo by HAL taken recently at a night-flight trial of the LCA Tejas. The photo was taken in the third week of June during the initial night-flying tests on one of the prototypes.*






*A photograph from HAL of a recent weapons test of the LCA Tejas.*​

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jako

I cant see the photo!


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## sancho

Jako said:


> I cant see the photo!


Can see them sometimes, don't know why but here are the links:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SktmPAsW35I/AAAAAAAAHdE/brlJkoTvy5k/s1600/IMG_0445-756363.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SktnekiTdII/AAAAAAAAHdM/WRgnIRlcYso/s1600/DSC00330-774082.JPG


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## heartwinlion

sancho said:


> Can see them sometimes, don't know why but here are the links:
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SktmPAsW35I/AAAAAAAAHdE/brlJkoTvy5k/s1600/IMG_0445-756363.JPG
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SktnekiTdII/AAAAAAAAHdM/WRgnIRlcYso/s1600/DSC00330-774082.JPG



Ist link is not working


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## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> Ist link is not working


Maybe these:

LiveFist: EXCLUSIVE Photo: Tejas night-flight

LiveFist: EXCLUSIVE Photo: Tejas weapon test


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## ironman

Nature too created Indian Flag Background.


----------



## RPK

*LCA&#8217;s final prototype to take off soon *


First Published : 26 Jun 2009 08:19:03 AM ISTLast Updated : 

BANGALORE: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme has achieved another significant breakthrough as its final prototype vehicle PV-5 will soon take to the skies. The PV-5, one of the five prototype vehicles developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency is ready with the Engine Ground Run currently being carried on.


Defence Research and Development Organisation sources told Express that the Engine Ground Run for the PV-5, a two-seat trainer prototype is currently being carried out, before it can be certified to fly.

&#8220;The Engine Ground Run precedes the low-speed taxi trial and the high speed taxi-trials, following which the first flight of the aircraft will take place,&#8221; said sources. &#8220;Once the weather improves the taxi trial will be carried and so will the first flight of the PV-5,&#8221; sources added.

Unlike the other four prototypes (PV-1, PV-2,PV-3,PV-4) and the two technology demonstrator (TD-1 and TD-2) aircraft, the PV-5 apart from being a two-seat trainer version of the LCA will be identical to the fighter.

It will be fully combat capable and could be used in that role.

The LCA has completed 1,141 Test Flights successfully as on June 25.

ADA, the technology development agency for the indigenous LCA programme, hopes to get the Initial Operational Clearance before being inducted in the IAF by 2010. IAF plans to have seven LCA squadrons

Source


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## Mig-29

Worried over the pace of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme, the Indian Air Force has suggested that the deadline for the fighters initial operational clearance (IOC) be postponed. According to the latest schedules, the IOC is December 2010. But with a number of issues dogging the design and development of the fighter, the postponement was suggested during last weeks monthly review meeting. Senior officials from the designers, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the IAF (including the newly appointed Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal N.V. Tyagi) and the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics, were present. Highly placed sources told The Hindu that the software integration of crucial equipment like the Israeli-built multimode radar (MMR) with the aircraft was yet to be completed. The lack of a radar meant that crucial points on the flight envelope were yet to be tested.The ADA has still not provided HAL with the digital flight control computer and air data computers which have to be integrated into the LCA programmes Limited Series Production 3 (LSP3) aircraft. The new LSP3, which was scheduled to make its first flight in June 2008, is now expected to do so only in September. Both the IAF and the ADA have bemoaned the low sortie generation by HAL. Just 11 sorties were undertaken in April, 24 in May and 23 in June. Officials claim that a minimum run rate of 30 sorties a month is required to meet the present IOC deadline. With this in mind, a plan to prepare two aircraft for flying in the forenoon and one in the afternoon was worked out. But this has not fructified.HAL officials, however, deny that sortie generation is the primary reason behind the delays. With two aircraft withdrawn from the flight test programme, we have just five aircraft to generate sorties, said an official. And even the available aircraft are not fully fitted to undertake the flights that are required. We have even painted LSP3 in its new colour [grey] and are ready. LSP4 will have its ground run before the end of July and the fuselages for LSP5 and LSP6 are ready. On six occasions in June while the aircraft was prepared and the weather good, there were no pilots. Officials said the IAF was aware of the shortage of test pilots at the National Flight Test Centre (the LCA is flown exclusively by these pilots) and was looking to increase their number.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Tejas may skip operational clearance deadline


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## s90

Guys is there any video of LCA doing 360?


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## Skywalker

s90 said:


> Guys is there any video of LCA doing 360?



Unfortumately not buddy, infact LCA is doing 69 with DRDO these days.


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## paritosh

^^
that was funny!..and it kind of makes sense too...


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## manojb

s90 said:


> Guys is there any video of LCA doing 360?


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## s90

^ Thats not full 360.............


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## sancho

s90 said:


> ^ Thats not full 360.............


You mean a looping or?


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## s90

sancho said:


> You mean a looping or?



Talking about this :-


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## sancho

s90 said:


> Talking about this :-


Check the video manojb posted (from 0:16), it's the same manoeuvre.


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## BSF

Tejas may skip operational clearance deadline

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: Worried over the pace of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme, the Indian Air Force has suggested that the deadline for the fighter&#8217;s initial operational clearance (IOC) be postponed.

According to the latest schedules, the IOC is December 2010. But with a number of issues dogging the design and development of the fighter, the postponement was suggested during last week&#8217;s &#8216;monthly review meeting.&#8217; Senior officials from the designers, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the IAF (including the newly appointed Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal N.V. Tyagi) and the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics, were present.

Highly placed sources told The Hindu that the software integration of crucial equipment like the Israeli-built multimode radar (MMR) with the aircraft was yet to be completed. The lack of a radar meant that crucial points on the flight envelope were yet to be tested.

The ADA has still not provided HAL with the digital flight control computer and air data computers which have to be integrated into the LCA programme&#8217;s Limited Series Production 3 (LSP3) aircraft.

The new LSP3, which was scheduled to make its first flight in June 2008, is now expected to do so only in September.

Both the IAF and the ADA have bemoaned the low sortie generation by HAL. Just 11 sorties were undertaken in April, 24 in May and 23 in June. Officials claim that a minimum run rate of 30 sorties a month is required to meet the present IOC deadline. With this in mind, a plan to prepare two aircraft for flying in the forenoon and one in the afternoon was worked out. But this has not fructified.

HAL officials, however, deny that sortie generation is the primary reason behind the delays. &#8220;With two aircraft withdrawn from the flight test programme, we have just five aircraft to generate sorties,&#8221; said an official.

&#8220;And even the available aircraft are not fully fitted to undertake the flights that are required. We have even painted LSP3 in its new colour [grey] and are ready. LSP4 will have its ground run before the end of July and the fuselages for LSP5 and LSP6 are ready. On six occasions in June while the aircraft was prepared and the weather good, there were no pilots.&#8221;

Officials said the IAF was aware of the shortage of test pilots at the National Flight Test Centre (the LCA is flown exclusively by these pilots) and was looking to increase their number.
Here


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## SEAL

"On six occasions in June while the aircraft was prepared and the weather good, there were no pilots.


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## ironman

*Indian Engine RFP Expected This Week​*Jul 16, 2009

By Neelam Mathews

NEW DELHI  The long-awaited request for proposals (RFP) to provide 99-125 engines for the Indian Air Forces Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to be released this week.

Proposals for the two candidate engines  GEs F414 and Eurojets EJ200  will be due by Oct. 12 if the RFP is released on July 17.

In October 2007, Eurojet signed a nondisclosure agreement with the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA and evaluating alternatives to the GE F404 engine powering the Tejas prototypes and initial production aircraft.

A senior official of Eurojet says it will transfer data under the agreement to Indias Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which is responsible for developing the indigenous Kaveri engine planned for the LCA.

We have interest in doing more with GTRE. However, we shall wait for milestones to be reached, an official says. Once you have a ticket to ride.synergies [with other projects] are quite natural, though the customer might think different.

With severe delays to the Kaveri program and performance limitations with the initial LCA, the Indian air force is keen to push ahead with an off-the-shelf engine acquisition. Former air force chief Fali Homi Major said early this year: We need five squadrons of the Mk2 LCAs. When integrated with the new engines, the LCA Mk2 should fly in 2013.

The GE414 powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F and Saab Gripen NG, while the EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon. All three aircraft are contenders in Indias 126-aircraft multirole fighter competition now under way.

Our engine needs minimum changes and will not delay the LCA, the Eurojet official said.

F414 Photo: Volvo
View attachment 3977

Reactions: Like Like:
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## glomex

Hal Tejas LCA flight test news Link:

Flight Test News


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## ironman

*Eurojet to submit proposal to Indian ADA​*
Published: July 20, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Order reprints
Related Searches

HALLBERGMOOS, Netherlands, July 20 (UPI) -- Eurojet Turbo has been requested to propose an engine alternative to power the Indian light combat aircraft.

European military engine consortium Eurojet has conducted a joint comprehensive feasibility study with the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency.

Following the study Eurojet announced it has been requested to submit a proposal offering its EJ200 engine for potential integration with the Indian light combat aircraft.

The development of the EJ200 engine technology, designed to power the Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role combat aircraft, is managed by Eurojet, which includes Avio, ITP, MTU Aero Engines and Rolls-Royce shareholders.

According to a news release, Eurojet is "now working on the response and will submit it to the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency within 12 weeks."


----------



## Mig-29

GE Aviation's F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters?

LineMint reports that the Aeronautical Development Agency has sent proposal requests to GE Aviation for its state-of-the-art F414 military aviation engines to propel the HAL Tejas light combat fighter jet.

The F414-GE-400 is the U.S. Navy's newest and most advanced technology production fighter engine. It incorporates advanced technology with the proven design base of its F404 predecessor to provide the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet with a durable, reliable and easy to maintain engine.

The engine entered production in late 1998 after a highly successful Engineering and Manufacturing Development program that was completed on time and on budget. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet production deliveries to the U.S. Navy are in process and are planned to continue through 2012. The F414-GE-400 has been highly reliable during initial field service.

ADA will also evaluate EJ2000 engine promoted by the Europe based Eurojet consortium.

GE Aviation&#039;s F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters? | India Defence


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## ejaz007

*India seeks bids from GE and Eurojet to supply engine for Tejas*

Aeronautical Development Agency director P.S. Subramanyam said the delay in the indigenous engine availability is what has driven us to go for an alternative engineK. Raghu 

India has sought bids from General Electric Co. and Eurojet Turbo GmbH to supply an engine for Tejas, the country&#8217;s first light combat aircraft, after an almost two-decade effort to develop a local version failed to deliver a sufficiently powerful engine.

The Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA, the jet&#8217;s designer, will evaluate the EJ200 engine built by Eurojet, a consortium that includes Rolls-Royce Group Plc., and General Electric&#8217;s GE 414 for the Mark II version of Tejas. The EJ200 is fitted in the Eurofighter and the GE 414 in Boeing Co.&#8217;s F-18 jets.

&#8220;The delay in the indigenous engine availability is what has driven us to go for an alternative engine,&#8221; said P.S. Subramanyam, director at ADA, the fighter development wing of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, or DRDO. &#8220;Probably, in another six months, we will complete all the proceedings (for the new engine).&#8221;
Tejas is a tailless single-engine supersonic fighter with delta wings&#8212;shaped like a triangle&#8212;which uses fly-by-wire technology that enables pilots to control the plane electronically through on-board computers.

The plane is undergoing development trials with a GE 404 engine, but this falls short of the thrust it requires in operational conditions.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has so far placed orders with state-owned plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for 28 Tejas jets powered by the GE 404 engines, and has committed to buying 140 more of these planes, comprising seven squadrons, with higher powered engines.

The tender stipulates transferring at least 60&#37; of the engine technology to HAL to produce the engines locally, said Hubertus von Schoenfeldt, spokesman for Eurojet in India. &#8220;We are willing to give more than 60% of the technology...if we become partners,&#8221; he added.

New attempt: P.S. Subramanyam of ADA, which designed Tejas. Hemant Mishra / MintGE did not respond to an email sent on Friday.
India&#8217;s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment, or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bangalore, has been working on an indigenous engine, named Kaveri, for the Tejas for nearly two decades but it fell short of the thrust required for flying.

GTRE now plans to partner with France&#8217;s Snecma SA to develop a high-powered engine and is awaiting approval from the Union government. The Indian Air Force, Tejas&#8217; main customer,&#8202;had resisted the proposal on grounds that it would the delay induction of the plane and suggested an alternative engine supplier be tapped. &#8220;Now the engine development is not linked with the progress of Tejas,&#8221; a DRDO spokesman said. He didn&#8217;t want to be named.

India began building a home-grown engine for Tejas after HF-Marut, the country&#8217;s first indigenously built supersonic jet, flopped in the 1960s because it could not get a suitable engine.
A few companies such as GE, Snecma and Russia&#8217;s NPO Saturn make engines for fighter jets, but they seldom share the technology, which typically changes every two years.

GTRE will continue developing an engine for fighter planes but it has to play catch-up and master the technology by overcoming snags.
&#8220;With the delay in development of Kaveri, it is a correct decision to go for a tested and proven engine,&#8221; said A.K. Saxena, managing director of Navv Avia Technologies, an aviation consultancy firm.
Tejas, which in Sanskrit means radiance, first flew in January 2001. Since then, test pilots have flown nearly 1,150 sorties on seven Tejas jets. The aircraft needs to complete 400 more flights by 2010 for an initial operational clearance (IOC), the minimum standard set for the plane, said Subramanyam.

&#8220;Tejas is approaching IOC. It is (the) right time for (taking a) final call on the engine,&#8221; said Saxena, a former managing director of HAL&#8217;s Bangalore complex, where Tejas is being produced.

ADA is also designing a naval version and a twin-seater trainer version of Tejas, said Subramanyam. &#8220;The (Tejas) programme has a very good (defined) road map&#8212;up to 2018. Funds are coming,&#8221; he said.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


----------



## lilaspr

*EUROJET Offers it&#8217;s EJ200 Engine for the Tejas, LCA Indian Light Combat Aircraft*

EUROJET Turbo GmbH is the leading European military aero-engine consortium responsible for the management of the development, production, maintenance, support and sales of the new generation EJ200 engine.

Eurojet Turbo GmbH, said it has received a Request for Proposal (RFP) from the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), to offer its EJ200 engine as a potential alternative power source for the Tejas, the country&#8217;s first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme.

American GE, with its F-414 and Eurojet&#8217;s EJ200 are in the race to power the Indian LCA fighter. Their proposals, in response to the RFP, will be due by October.

Tejas is a tailless single-engine supersonic fighter with delta wings&#8212;shaped like a triangle&#8212;which uses fly-by-wire technology that enables pilots to control the plane electronically through on-board computers.

According to a news release, Eurojet is &#8220;now working on the response and will submit it to the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency within 12 weeks.&#8221;

India&#8217;s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was developing the Kaveri engine to power the LCA. Trying to integrate nearly 16,000 parts and subsystems became too complicated and in 2005, the Kaveri engine caught fire when it was first tested on board a Tupolev-16 aircraft in Russia.

The shareholders of EUROJET are Avio (Italy), ITP (Spain), MTU Aero Engines (Germany) and Rolls-Royce (UK).

The EJ200 engine is Europe&#8217;s next generation, advanced military turbofan engine. It has been designed to fulfill the most demanding requirements of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The EJ200 is a two-spool turbo fan with a modular design, supporting the most stringent maintainability requirements.


----------



## sudhir007

img_18_19507_4-702656.jpg (image)


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## sudhir007

Some photo's of lca trainer

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Photos: The LCA Trainer


----------



## FulcrumD

sudhir007 said:


> Some photo's of lca trainer
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Photos: The LCA Trainer



These pics are 10 months old now,the PV-5 is all assembled and doing taxi trials.


----------



## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well i personally do not think so...if there were any assistance from russians...india could have made a 4.5 gen fighter by now...with all these deals around 40 billion that india proposes to spend on defense it was not a very big task.....however it is indians who want to go a hard way....so let it be....anyway we french are also there.....after all we have Rafale..for indians


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

and also we will sell our scorpene to pakistani's ..too


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## sancho

Can anybody tell me (or provide a link) what kind of IRST the LCA will have?
Also LCA MK2 will have some airframe changes too right? What kind of and could there be air intake changes to reduce RCS (similar to the changes at F18 Hornet, to Super Hornet) too?


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## ironman

sancho said:


> Can anybody tell me (or provide a link) what kind of IRST the LCA will have?
> Also LCA MK2 will have some airframe changes too right? What kind of and could there be air intake changes to reduce RCS (similar to the changes at F18 Hornet, to Super Hornet) too?





> *Passive Non-Cooperative Target Recognition Options​*07/04/09 - tempur april 2009
> 
> Just like the fierce competition now underway for supplying M-MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF), a parallel competition is proceeding ahead for supplying new-generation passive infra-red search-and-track (IRST) systems coupled with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for both the yet-to-be-selected M-MRCA, and
> 
> Just like the fierce competition now underway for supplying M-MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF), a parallel competition is proceeding ahead for supplying new-generation passive infra-red search-and-track (IRST) systems coupled with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for both the yet-to-be-selected M-MRCA, and for the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), which is now being flight-tested. All in all, more than 460 IRST systems are expected to be ordered. Bidding to supply the IRSTs are Europes EuroFirst consortium (offering the PIRATE), a consortium of Frances THALES and Sagem Défense Sécurité offering the Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF), Swedens Saab offering the IR-OTIS, and Russias Urals Optical & Mechanical Plant (UOMZ) offering the 13SM1 sensor.
> 
> The PIRATE, or passive infra-red airborne tracking equipment, is a second-generation imaging infra-red (IIR) system and has been developed by the EuroFirst consortium led by THALES Optronics and Selex-Galileo. PIRATE incorporates both a forward looking infra-red (FLIR) and IRST capability. The system itself utilises a highly sensitive IIR sensor mounted to the port side of the canopy. This sensor scans across wavelengths from 3 micron to 11 micron in two bands. This allows the detection of both the hot exhaust plumes of turbofans as well as surface heating caused by friction. By supercooling the sensor even small variations in temperature can be detected at long range. Although no definitive ranges have been released an upper limit of 80nm has been hinted at, but a more typical figure would be 50nm. The use of processing techniques further enhances the output, giving a near high-resolution image of targets. The actual output from the system can be directed to any of the multi-function head down AMLCDs mounted within a combat aircrafts cockpit. Additionally, the image can be overlaid on both the helmet-mounted display sight and heads-up display (HUD). The IIR sensor is stabilised within its mount so that it can maintain a target within its field-of-view (FOV). Up to 200 targets can be simultaneously tracked by the system using one of several different modes: multiple target track (MTT), single target track (STT), single target track identification (STTI), sector acquisition and slaved acquisition. In MTT mode the system will scan a designated volume space looking for potential targets. In STT mode PIRATE will provide high-precision tracking of a single designated target. An addition to this mode, STT Identification allows for visual identification of the airborne target, the resolution being superior to that provided by the Caesar AESA. When in sector acquisition mode, the PIRATE will scan a volume of space under direction of another sensor such as the Caesar. In slave acquisition the use of off-board sensors is made, with the PIRATE being commanded by data obtained from an AEW & C platform, for example. When a target is found in either of these modes PIRATE will automatically designate it and switch to STT. Once a target has been tracked and identified, PIRATE can be used to cue a within-visual-range air-to-air missile, i.e. a missile with a high off-boresight tracking capability. Additionally, the data can be used to augment that of the Caesar or off-board sensor information obtained from an integrated EW suite. This will enable the IRST-equipped aircraft to overcome severe ECM environments and still engage its targets.
> Northrop Grummans AAQ-32 Internal FLIR targetting system (IFTS), coupled with the APG-80 AESA, is currently operational on board the Lockheed Martin-built Block 60/62 F-16E/F Desert Faclon M-MRCAs of the United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF). The IFTS includes a navigation FLIR sensor and a targeting FLIR both mounted within a single pod. It allows the aircraft to detect and identify both ground and airborne targets, even at night or in adverse weather. The IFTS relies on the aircraft for its power and cryogenic cooling requirements. While the targetting FLIR and laser designator have been repackaged in a pod, the wide-area navigation stabilised FLIR sensor is housed above the nose. The IFTS, however, is not being offered to India for the F-16IN M-MRCA. The OSF, coupled with the THALES-developed RBE-2 AESA, is mounted in front of the cockpit and consists of two optronic modules. The starboard module has a long-wave (8-12 micron) IIR camera and is used for airborne target search and track. The range of the camera is believed to be up to 90km in ideal conditions. The portside module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder. The OSF suite carries out search, target identification, telemetry and automatic target discrimination and tracking. By cueing the OSF with the tracks provided by the RBE-2 or by another aircraft via a secure operational data link, a pilot can easily identify an aggressor force at a range of several tens of nautical miles. For example, he can pick up three F/A-18s preparing to penetrate at 20,000 feet and three additional F/A-18s protecting the former at 40,000 feet. Saab Dynamics, on the other hand, is offering the IR-OTIS in combination with both its Ericsson-built Nora AESA and the existing PS-o5/A mechanically scanned airborne multi-mode radar. The IR-OTIS has been flight-tested since 2001, and is located just in front of the aircraft canopy, slightly offset to port and is about 20cm in diameter. The IR-OTIS FOV will be cued by a helmet-mounted display system (as will the radar). It will also have an autonomous search programme and tracking function. The information will be storable for evaluation and comparison with radar information in real-time, and also as video for later use.
> Another novel IRST solution being proposed comes from Lockheed Martin, which has already been selected to supply the IRST sensor for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Block 2 Super Hornet. The podded system will provide passive detection and tracking of airborne targets at long-range. The long-wave IR sensor will be mounted in the nose of the 1,820 litre centreline fuel tank. Boeing and Lockheed Martin are co-developing a proof-of-concept demonstrator. The IRSTs sub-systems include a sensor head that houses a three-axis inertially stabilised gimbal that scans the optics and detector assembly; a COTS processor that hosts the algorithms and a high-density digital recorder, and an air-to-liquid heat exchanger (environmental control sub-system, or ECS). The US Navy plans to buy 150 such IRSTs, with the system scheduled to become operational in 2012. The IRST, when coupled with Raytheons APG-79 AESA, provides the F/A-18E/Fs mission computer with track file data on all targets while simultaneously providing IIR imagery to cockpit displays. The IRST will operate in either track-while-scan or single target track mode, with cockpit selectable hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controlled scan volumes in azimuth and elevation. The IRST will be mounted in the forward section of the centreline fuel tank, thereby ensuring that its FOV is maximised. UOMZs 13SM1 (OLS-UEM) IRST, originally developed for the MiG-35 and working in conjunction with the Phazotron JSC-built Zhuk-AE AESA, has a 120-degree FOV in azimuth, 55 degrees and -15 degrees FOV in elevation, has a detection range of 28km in the forward hemisphere and 70km in the rear hemisphere, and has a total weight of 60kg. UOMZ has also developed the OLS-K pod-mounted look-down IRST that combines a TV camera with an IIR sensor and laser rangefinder/designator, all of which are housed within a belly-mounted 110kg-pod. The OLS-K is thus a multi-purpose IRST sensor that is used for not only airborne target detection, but also for detection and engagement of ground-based targets out to 40km.


According to air intake changes if any, we have to wait .

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## ironman

*Request proposal for new Tejas Mk2 engine issued ​*Monday, Jul 27, 2009
Ravi Sharma

*GE and Eurojet in the fray

Both manufacturers given time till October 12
*
BANGALORE: Almost a year after it was scheduled to go out, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a request for proposal (RFP) which will lead to the selection of a new, more powerful engine for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk2.

The necessity for a new, off-the-shelf engine has occurred since the LCAs present power plant, the GE F404 IN20, cannot power the Indian Air Forces specified air staff requirements. The RFP has gone out to the United States General Electric (GE) for its F414 engine and the European military aero engine consortium Eurojet who are offering the EJ200 engine. Both engines are currently in service and capable of delivering an installed thrust in excess of 90 kiloNewtons.

Both manufacturers have been given time till October 12 to submit proposals which will be technically evaluated. The RFP indicates a run of 99 engines, with the option to procure a further 49. While the first few engines will be bought out in fly-away condition, the remaining will be assembled or manufactured at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Officials from the ADA told The&#8194;Hindu that the primary reason for the delay in issuing the RFP was HALs insistence to ride the bandwagon and secure via the engine deal as much manufacturing technology from the manufacturer as possible. HAL has never designed or manufactured its own aero engines, but only assembled them under license production agreements. It would like to gain a foothold in manufacturing technologies such as single crystal blade and blade cooling. Though no transfer of design technology will take place, Eurojet has indicated that an Indian entity can join them as a partner in designing modifications/ improvements to the EJ200.

The installation of the new engine will necessitate major modifications to the LCA, especially the fuselage. The ADA expects the Tejas Mk2 to fly in 2014.

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## sancho

ironman said:


> According to air intake changes if any, we have to wait .


Thx for that interesting article! 
According to it IAF is searching for a package of AESA radar and IRST, but if that is true, why is it often reported that the Israeli Elta 2052 is likely to be used in LCA MK2? Do they have an IRST system that could be offered?
Also the article says that the IRST of F16 block 60 is not on offer for MMRCA, so obviously it won't be on offer for LCA. I also doubt that they will be ready to provide AESA radars for LCA, which leaves only European and Russian as possibilities. But EF and Gripen NG don't have their AESA radars developed yet, which clearly will give Rafale and Mig 35 an advantage.


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## sudhir007

IAF suggesting proven, flight worthy engine for LCA: Antony :: Samay Live

New Delhi, Aug 3 Government today said DRDO hasproposed to co-develop and co-produce an upgraded version ofKaveri engine with French engine manufacturers Snecma for theLight Combat Aircraft (LCA) but the IAF has suggested that aproven and flight worthy engine to be put on the aircraft.

"DRDO has offered to co-develop and co-produce 90 KNthrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine with Snecma to meet theoperational requirements of LCA within 48 months of due dateof project inception," Defence Minister A K Antony said whilereplying to a Lok Sabha query.

"Indian Air Force (IAF) has suggested a proven enginethat is already in production and flight worthy for meetingimmediate requirements," he added.

Antony said that DRDO has claimed that minimum changeswould be required in the LCA airframe to integrate the newKaveri engine without affecting the weight and configurationof the first indigenously developed combat aircraft.

In reply to another query, he said that a global tenderfor attack helicopters issued in May last year was withdrawnas the three proposals received from vendors were not incompliance with IAF's requirements and a fresh Requestfor Proposal (RFP) was issued this year. .


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## Ruag

Times of India article detailing the demise of the 'Kaveri' engine 

*
'Indigenous' Tejas fighter to get 'foreign' engines for power*

- _Rajat Pandit , TNN 4 August 2009_


> India's quest to develop its own multi-role supersonic fighter, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), continues to falter even after 25 years. Its heart also needs a foreign transplant surgery now to function properly.
> 
> The defence ministry has asked two leading aeroengine manufacturers, General Electric (US) and Eurojet Turbo GmbH, to submit their bids within three months to supply 99 engines, with an option for 49 more, for the Mark-II version of Tejas.
> 
> With GE F-414 INS5 and EJ-200 being the engines in contention, eight will be bought off-the-shelf, while the other 91 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology in an estimated $600 million contract.
> 
> This comes after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster even after two decades of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful engines.
> 
> Sounding the death knell for Kaveri, IAF has shot down the offer of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-produce the "90kN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine'' with French company Snecma to meet Tejas' operational requirements, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament on Monday.
> 
> DRDO contended the modified Kaveri engine would provide "comparable thrust throughout the flight envelope of Tejas''. Moreover, it would require minimum changes in airframe to integrate this engine without affecting the weight and configuration of the single-seater fighter.
> 
> "IAF, however, has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight-worthy for meeting immediate requirements. The RFP (request for proposal) has been issued to reputed engine manufacturers,'' said Antony.
> 
> Incidentally, the GE-414 and EJ-200 engines power the American F/A-18 and Eurofighter, respectively, two of the six jets in the race to bag IAF's $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 "medium'' multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
> 
> IAF, incidentally, has ordered only 20 Tejas till now, apprehensive of its capabilities since the fighter's final operational clearance (FOC) will come only in December 2012 at the earliest.
> 
> Antony declared that high-level reviews of the Tejas project were being conducted regularly by IAF chief and deputy chief to ensure it's completed in time.
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Aeronautical Development Agency and DRDO have, of course, faced a lot of flak for the huge delays.
> 
> Initiated as far back as 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace ageing MiG-21s, the LCA project costs have now jumped to Rs 5,489 crore. The figure may well cross the Rs 10,000-crore mark by the time the fighter is fully ready.
> 
> IAF is certainly keeping its fingers crossed, grappling as it is with a depleting number of fighter squadrons, down to just 32 from a sanctioned strength of 39.5.
> 
> The force is banking upon the "air dominance'' Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, with 230 of them being contracted from Russia in deals worth around $8.5 billion, to fulfil its need for "heavy-weight'' fighters. The MMRCA will take care of the medium-weight category. Tejas, in turn, is slated to plug the light-weight fighter gap in the combat fleet.



Seems that the LCA is no longer considered a major component of IAF's future combat fleet. India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!


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## sancho

Ruag said:


> Times of India article detailing the demise of the 'Kaveri' engine
> 
> 
> 'Indigenous' Tejas fighter to get 'foreign' engines for power
> 
> - _Rajat Pandit , TNN 4 August 2009_
> 
> 
> Seems that the LCA is no longer considered a major component of IAF's future combat fleet. India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!


Why? The article confirms 99 new engines and 49 optional, with the around 20 LCA MK1 and some trainer versions, it will be around 150 to 200 LCA. These will replace any Mig 21 except the Bisons, which will be replaced by MMRCA. So LCA is still coming in planed numbers.
Also the article says nothing about technical problems with Kaveri, only that it not offers the required thrust of IAF (90 Kn, Kaveri offers around 83 Kn) and IAF don't wanted to wait for the Snecma upg.
Compare the thrust of similar engines (wiki specs):

GE 404 IN20 of LCA - MK1 85 Kn

RD 93 of JF 17 - 84 Kn (same for RD 33 of our Mig 29)

RD 33MK of our Mig 29K and the new Mig 35 - 88 to 90 Kn 

M88-2 of Rafale 75 Kn 

So either Kaveri has other problems and is just not proven enough, or IAF requirement was too high, but the thrust alone can't be the reason not to take it!


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## arihant

Ruag said:


> India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!



Brother, India learn a lot from this. Every failure in the task, lead to greater success in future. I think India should still continue building the kaveri engine for the sole purpose to get experience.


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## Trisonics

arihant said:


> Brother, India learn a lot from this. Every failure in the task, lead to greater success in future. I think India should still continue building the kaveri engine for the sole purpose to get experience.


This is a great set back. If the Kaveri is not used on the LCA which would have been a test bed for the engine, what will power the MCA?

In all probability it may be an engine that India builds with another country as a JV, but the money & time it has spent on this project seems to be all down the drain. IMO its too late to redesign or build a new engine altogether, JV is the way out. The biggest problem with this effort and most of India's project are time management. When they are late by a decade the new product is very old. 

If somebody can induce good authority and accountability with proper project management, I have no doubt that we will dish out awesome products. Until that happens...expect everything to be late..some very late...


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## arihant

Trisonics said:


> This is a great set back. If the Kaveri is not used on the LCA which would have been a test bed for the engine, what will power the MCA?
> 
> In all probability it may be an engine that India builds with another country as a JV, but the money & time it has spent on this project seems to be all down the drain. IMO its too late to redesign or build a new engine altogether, JV is the way out. The biggest problem with this effort and most of India's project are time management. When they are late by a decade the new product is very old.
> 
> If somebody can induce good authority and accountability with proper project management, I have no doubt that we will dish out awesome products. Until that happens...expect everything to be late..some very late...



What is IMO, is that govt. should still try to find out the problems of kaveri. Whether they use the engine or not is not the subsequent question. This will help in their future projects. It's still better to create your own product by investing 10-20 times then importing it. By creating your own, you learn a lot and chance of exporting the engine gets created.


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## Trisonics

arihant said:


> What is IMO, is that govt. should still try to find out the problems of kaveri. Whether they use the engine or not is not the subsequent question. This will help in their future projects. It's still better to create your own product by investing 10-20 times then importing it. By creating your own, you learn a lot and chance of exporting the engine gets created.


All true if we can make on before LCA gets into squadrons and with some new specifications. You think its possible? the kind of secrecy on the kaveri and its ability (read inability) make me believe its a dud 
I'm all for a JV, remember India can build good frames or an aircraft or awesome avionics, jet engines are a whole different story. The fastest way to learn is a JV and then use the Indian brain to better it. We are already late, lets be wiser now.


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## Ruag

sancho said:


> Why? The article confirms 99 new engines and 49 optional, with the around 20 LCA MK1 and some trainer versions, it will be around 150 to 200 LCA. These will replace any Mig 21 except the Bisons, which will be replaced by MMRCA. So LCA is still coming in planed numbers.
> Also the article says nothing about technical problems with Kaveri, only that it not offers the required thrust of IAF (90 Kn, Kaveri offers around 83 Kn) and IAF don't wanted to wait for the Snecma upg.
> 
> So either Kaveri has other problems and is just not proven enough, or IAF requirement was too high, but the thrust alone can't be the reason not to take it!



Well.. the same article specifically mentions that the IAF has confirmed the purchase of just 20 LCAs. It seems quite obvious that HAL/ADA are forcefully making IAF buy these fighter jets. 

And for any jet engine, thrust is a major factor. IAF has repeatedly said that the Kaveri is too heavy and does not provide enough thrust. This puts LCA at a serious disadvantage compared to other contemprorary fighter jets. Besides, it hasn't been tested for long duration of time to address all reliability issues.


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## BATMAN

Hey fellows, problem is not in engine, problem is in the air frame.
Airframe of LCA need drastic changes.
I agree with Ruag that if 20 LCA being made than those will be used merely as trainer by InAF and not front line fighters.
Hence it cannever be a up for export, in its present form.
Any changes than it is no more Light Combat Aircraft.
BTW, Kaveri engine in its present form have foreign inputs.
i wonder what went wrong despite all the finances and support being made available.


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## Screaming Skull

Ruag said:


> Well.. the same article specifically mentions that the IAF has confirmed the purchase of just 20 LCAs. It seems quite obvious that HAL/ADA are forcefully making IAF buy these fighter jets.
> 
> And for any jet engine, thrust is a major factor. IAF has repeatedly said that the Kaveri is too heavy and does not provide enough thrust. This puts LCA at a serious disadvantage compared to other contemprorary fighter jets. Besides, it hasn't been tested for long duration of time to address all reliability issues.



Hi Ruag,

Please, state your point clearly. Do you doubt the capability of the LCA or only the Kaveri engine? If you are concerned with the LCA on the whole then be assured that it is not being thrust upon the IAF by anyone. The IAF has clearly specified the IOC and FOC conditions/requirements and the LCA will be inducted only if these conditions are fully met. The 20 LCAs of Mk-I version are expected to get the IOC in 2010 or 2011. The user inputs coming from the IAF after operating this squadron of LCA Mk-I will be essential to the success of the Mk-II and that s the reason for the initial order of 20 jets. The engine RFP is for 99+49 engines, which means that we will see atleast 148 LCA Mk-II in IAF colors. That is a big number by any stretch of imagination. Do you think the IAF would have committed to such large numbers if it didnt have faith in the aircraft?

Coming to the Kaveri issue, it is confirmed that the Kaveri engine in its present form is not going to power the LCA. So, there is *no* disadvantage compared to other contemporary fighter jets as you mention. The Mk-I version will be powered by the GE-404 and the later Mk-II versions will be powered by either the EJ-200 or the GE-414.


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## Choppers

I think GE has won the contract for supplying engines.


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## sancho

Ruag said:


> Well.. the same article specifically mentions that the IAF has confirmed the purchase of just 20 LCAs. It seems quite obvious that HAL/ADA are forcefully making IAF buy these fighter jets.
> 
> And for any jet engine, thrust is a major factor. IAF has repeatedly said that the Kaveri is too heavy and does not provide enough thrust. This puts LCA at a serious disadvantage compared to other contemprorary fighter jets. Besides, it hasn't been tested for long duration of time to address all reliability issues.


I think you missunderstand some things! 
The 20 LCA (other reports say 40, or 2 squads) are LCA MK1 with the GE 404 enginem which will be produced by next year. LCA MK2 which will get the new engine, will be produced from 2014 on and as the article says in numbers of 100 - 150. So if IAF don't want more LCA, why get 100 - 150 new engines?

Check the comparison I made, if LCA MK 1 can fly with an 85 Kn US engine, it could also fly with an 83 Kn Kaveri. JF 17 is already flying with a comparable thrust, also the older version of Gripen which only has 80 Kn thrust. Once again I doubt that thrust of Kaveri is problem!


BATMAN said:


> Hey fellows, problem is not in engine, problem is in the air frame.
> Airframe of LCA need drastic changes.


Can you prove that please, because as far as I know the only airframe changes will depend on which new engine it will get. It is statet the the GE 414 engine will cause more changes and the EJ 200 just minor modifications.


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Can you prove that please, because as far as I know the only airframe changes will depend on which new engine it will get. It is statet the the GE 414 engine will cause more changes and the EJ 200 just minor modifications.



I think u r ryt Ej-200 advance in term of technology they give us TVC version + it has ability for S.C. at 1.2 mach. And it has potential growth with some mirror changes it can upgrade thrust by 20-30%.


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## BATMAN

sancho said:


> Can you prove that please, because as far as I know the only airframe changes will depend on which new engine it will get. It is statet the the GE 414 engine will cause more changes and the EJ 200 just minor modifications.



Delta wing design need support of canard wings to be a truly maneuvarable, which is a big reason to go for light a/c. Adding canards on a small aircraft and keeping its weight low, may not be possible.... hence LCA may end up with bigger dimensions and more weight.
Changes due to change in engine would be additional.

I have the feeling that LCA production will only be symbolic and HAL will move on to MCA development.
We all know LCA was inspired from mirrage and we'll see what would be the inspiration for MCA?


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## Nihat

BATMAN said:


> Delta wing design need support of canard wings to be a truly maneuvarable, which is a big reason to go for light a/c. Adding canards on a small aircraft and keeping its weight low, may not be possible.... hence LCA may end up with bigger dimensions and more weight.
> Changes due to change in engine would be additional.
> 
> I have the feeling that LCA production will only be symbolic and HAL will move on to MCA development.
> We all know LCA was inspired from mirrage and we'll see what would be the inspiration for MCA?



possibly , but we HAVE to replace the mig-21 fleet and if LCA numbers are fewer and symbolic then it would leave us with a fleet of 200+ high end Sukhoi's but devoid of effective light fighter / Interceptors.

I expect IAF to put it's weight behind the LCA and procure upwards of 150 but figures of close to 400 are unrealistic.


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## indian_pm

seeing threat from China on its western border IAF has put immediate order to purchase 99 engine from the US


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## sudhir007

indian_pm said:


> seeing threat from China on its western border IAF has put immediate order to purchase 99 engine from the US


I will take time my bother engine up gradation is not a easy task. and remember lca does not pass ioc Ist it has to clear this then new engine (GE414 or EJ200) integration and radar (AESA) then the foc come. It can not come (lca-mk2) before 2013-2014 because of slow speed by ADA & HAL


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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> Delta wing design need support of canard wings to be a truly maneuvarable, which is a big reason to go for light a/c. Adding canards on a small aircraft and keeping its weight low, may not be possible.... hence LCA may end up with bigger dimensions and more weight.
> Changes due to change in engine would be additional.


Or you just get a new engine that combines it all in one, the EJ 200! No big airframe changes, TVC for more maneuvarability and and more thrust for a better t/w ratio. 
Delta wing, TVC, 90 - 100 kN thrust, possibly SC and a good AESA radar would make the MK2 version really comparable to Gripen NG!


BATMAN said:


> I have the feeling that LCA production will only be symbolic and HAL will move on to MCA development.
> We all know LCA was inspired from mirrage and we'll see what would be the inspiration for MCA?


That can't happen for some simple reasons,
1. MCA development takes maybe a decade and we have to replace Mig 21 by the next few years. 
2. Both are meant for totally different roles.
LCA - low cost interceptor with some multi role capability to replace Mig 21
MCA - next gen fighter for BVR combats and special strikes to replace Jags, upg Mig 27 and maybe Mirage 2k

So the least number of LCA must be the number of Mig 21 that will be phased out in the next few years (150 to 200).

Actually the design of the MCA is already done:


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## Gabbar




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## indian_pm

Gabbar bhaiiii as I had told u earler that all such news I watched on a reliable news channel called AAJ Tak.......


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## BATMAN

Nihat said:


> possibly , but we HAVE to replace the mig-21 fleet and if LCA numbers are fewer and symbolic then it would leave us with a fleet of 200+ high end Sukhoi's but devoid of effective light fighter / Interceptors.


Well ...what shall I call it fortunate or unfortunate!!!
Time line is suerly not in your favor.
You have no choice but to buy off the shelf fighter or keep flying mig-21! and again fortunately or unfortunately there are no such aircrafts which may exactly replace mig-21.. do you have any thing in mind?



> I expect IAF to put it's weight behind the LCA and procure upwards of 150 but figures of close to 400 are unrealistic.


Honestly, forcing IAF will not serve any good purpose but choice is all yours. I think figures close to 400 are only possible when you change LCA design to MCA.


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## BATMAN

sancho said:


> No big airframe changes......
> 
> Actually the design of the MCA is already done:



You don't make any sense here....
first... what you are showing us does not translate in to a design
secondly there is no similarity with LCA!
thirdly, twin engine a/c cannot translate in ot an LCA.

Is it my imagination or you also see some similarities


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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> You don't make any sense here....
> first... what you are showing us does not translate in to a design
> secondly there is no similarity with LCA!
> thirdly, twin engine a/c cannot translate in ot an LCA.
> 
> Is it my imagination or you also see some similarities


The pic I showed was a response to this:


> We all know LCA was inspired from mirrage and we'll see what would be the inspiration for MCA?


LCA and MCA are two different aircrafts and will only have some minor similarities, specially because LCA won't get Kaveri engine now. 

If you think LCA MK2 will get such radical airframe changes like your pic shows, you are mistaken. They will do anything now to reduce some weight and get the new engine into it, that's it! Because more changes will cause more time for development and testing. Also The fact that we only will produce a low number of MK1 versions and get the more capable MMRCA above the LCA MK2, means not more developments for LCA are needed. 
If LCA was on time and we didn't needed to go with MMRCA, there could be a MK3 version as a further development with more changes. 
I guess after the induction of MK2 has startedm the concentration will be focused on next gen techs and developments for FGFA and MCA.


----------



## Hunter911

Some american says that, indian LCA fighter is better than the performance of JF - 17 more? So, let us fight in the sky&#12290;


----------



## Brahm0s

Hunter911 said:


> Some american says that, indian LCA fighter is better than the performance of JF - 17 more? So, let us fight in the sky&#12290;



Friend it has to be better because jet fighter not always about only design. Whats matters is what inputs LCA and JF-17 has. JF-17 inputs build by china. LCA inputs would be israel or french or both mix. If china better in inputs than israel and french than yep JF-17 better. As far as i know russian inputs not upto level of israel inputs while china lags behind russia. What does that mean? Do i have to say it friend? And one more thing that LCA alot small and lite weight. Thats advantage. Its engine the only problem. Once engine gets fixed with more power than matching LCA would be alot difficult for JF-17 unless JF-17 uses better inputs by israel or america. Is that possible? i would say wait and watch.


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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> Friend it has to be better because jet fighter not always about only design. Whats matters is what inputs LCA and JF-17 has. JF-17 inputs build by china. LCA inputs would be israel or french or both mix. If china better in inputs than israel and french than yep JF-17 better. As far as i know russian inputs not upto level of israel inputs while china lags behind russia. What does that mean? Do i have to say it friend? And one more thing that LCA alot small and lite weight. Thats advantage. Its engine the only problem. Once engine gets fixed with more power than matching LCA would be alot difficult for JF-17 unless JF-17 uses better inputs by israel or america. Is that possible? i would say wait and watch.


Don't underestemate the JF 17 and specially the Chinese developments in radar and engine fields! Even if both are not ready yet (just as our indigenous radar and engine), the specs looks not bad at all.
I guess we have to wait and see till both fighters are operational to see what exact specs they have and to make a good comparison. Moreover the block 2 and MK2 versions will be the interesting fighters, both will have full capabilities which are mostly undecided right now.


----------



## sudhir007

Hunter911 said:


> Some american says that, indian LCA fighter is better than the performance of JF - 17 more? So, let us fight in the sky&#12290;



Dear Frd, rytnow both fighter r on paper plan u can say that paf has no -8 jf-17 but these all PT version. if u see the conf. it not much deference same thrust engine in blk1 & mk-1 RD-99 & GE404 (52kn DT & A/B 85KN) also lca start production after 1-2 yr later then jf-17 (already start production in pak.) In blk-1 Both AF get 20 in lca & Jf-17 50. 
But in bk-2 lca has upper hand it is already in process engine soon finalize (GE414 or ej200) both are combat proven engine also ASEA may be el-2052 or may be the winner of MMRCA. but in th case of jf-17 it is not finalize which engine Chinese or western and what kind of radar they install in it also paf has fund shortage(Ist blk loan by Chinese) otherwise if the plane is ready 2 yr ago why they r not add any plan ??????


----------



## Adios Amigo

Hunter911 said:


> Some american says that, indian LCA fighter is better than the performance of JF - 17 more? So, let us fight in the sky&#12290;




Hunter my friend it seems u enjoy flamy threads so thats a good idea to through the match,sit back and relax


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## Spitfighter

Hunter911 said:


> Some american says that, indian LCA fighter is better than the performance of JF - 17 more? So, let us fight in the sky&#12290;



Alright man, when and where?!


----------



## BATMAN

> JF-17 inputs build by china. LCA inputs would be israel or french or both mix. If china better in inputs than israel and french than yep JF-17 better.


Care to explain, what do you imply by inputs?


----------



## Hunter911

Italy <<Progress>> in reporting that the Italian government recently announced that the latest successful development of the ground effect of long-range anti-radar stealth out, and that the passive radar can detect and discover the whereabouts of F22. Tests showed that 3 times and found that simulation of intercepting F22, a success. Airborne role can reach 140 kilometers away from the ground to reach 1,800-kilometer range. 


It is learned that China has successfully developed a long-term ground-based passive radar system. The role of the system can reach 1,500 kilometers distance. Airborne systems are also at the same time. Recently, the Italian military said the trade sector is being carried out in consultation with the Chinese Anti-stealth technology. Message states that it is worth noting that technology exchange instead of in is the introduction. 
Come on,welcome the Indian LCA, SUK-30MKI fighters and so elite, you boldly fly over the Tibet airspace, and our farmers will consider the use of bamboo poles to beat down the fighters when in necessary. We will use the best pork privileges your pilots.


----------



## Mig-29

Hunter911 said:


> Italy <<Progress>> in reporting that the Italian government recently announced that the latest successful development of the ground effect of long-range anti-radar stealth out, and that the passive radar can detect and discover the whereabouts of F22. Tests showed that 3 times and found that simulation of intercepting F22, a success. Airborne role can reach 140 kilometers away from the ground to reach 1,800-kilometer range.
> 
> 
> It is learned that China has successfully developed a long-term ground-based passive radar system. The role of the system can reach 1,500 kilometers distance. Airborne systems are also at the same time. Recently, the Italian military said the trade sector is being carried out in consultation with the Chinese Anti-stealth technology. Message states that it is worth noting that technology exchange instead of in is the introduction.
> Come on,welcome the Indian LCA, SUK-30MKI fighters and so elite, you boldly fly over the Tibet airspace, and our farmers will consider the use of bamboo poles to beat down the fighters when in necessary. We will use the best pork privileges your pilots.



This comment should be in the military jokes section and not in this thread


----------



## Brahm0s

Hunter911 said:


> Italy <<Progress>> in reporting that the Italian government recently announced that the latest successful development of the ground effect of long-range anti-radar stealth out, and that the passive radar can detect and discover the whereabouts of F22. Tests showed that 3 times and found that simulation of intercepting F22, a success. Airborne role can reach 140 kilometers away from the ground to reach 1,800-kilometer range.
> 
> 
> It is learned that China has successfully developed a long-term ground-based passive radar system. The role of the system can reach 1,500 kilometers distance. Airborne systems are also at the same time. Recently, the Italian military said the trade sector is being carried out in consultation with the Chinese Anti-stealth technology. Message states that it is worth noting that technology exchange instead of in is the introduction.
> Come on,welcome the Indian LCA, SUK-30MKI fighters and so elite, you boldly fly over the Tibet airspace, and our farmers will consider the use of bamboo poles to beat down the fighters when in necessary. We will use the best pork privileges your pilots.



India has successfully developed a radar that has range upto 5000 KM which directly activate the Lazer Beem that can shoot down any cheap low technology chinese jet fighters within seconds. Believe me? That was joke by me but ur joke was better than mine lol. Friend time to wake up. China is china. They cant jump long from zero to hero. Let me know does developed countries made that radar yet? China already went ahead? Lol. i thought russia is china's master. You not only beaten russia but also western developed countries (in your dreams) lol. By the way is that italy same country whose president made fun of obama? And than later he caught up with some lady? Than he suddenly said its america who doing this he he. That man is funny. Do some research on him. He giving italy bad name just like mafia's gave italy bad name lol. cheers friend.


----------



## Brahm0s

Hunter911 said:


> Italy <<Progress>> in reporting that the Italian government recently announced that the latest successful development of the ground effect of long-range anti-radar stealth out, and that the passive radar can detect and discover the whereabouts of F22. Tests showed that 3 times and found that simulation of intercepting F22, a success. Airborne role can reach 140 kilometers away from the ground to reach 1,800-kilometer range.
> 
> 
> It is learned that China has successfully developed a long-term ground-based passive radar system. The role of the system can reach 1,500 kilometers distance. Airborne systems are also at the same time. Recently, the Italian military said the trade sector is being carried out in consultation with the Chinese Anti-stealth technology. Message states that it is worth noting that technology exchange instead of in is the introduction.
> Come on,welcome the Indian LCA, SUK-30MKI fighters and so elite, you boldly fly over the Tibet airspace, and our farmers will consider the use of bamboo poles to beat down the fighters when in necessary. We will use the best pork privileges your pilots.



By the friend LCA and Sukhoi-30MKI aint stealth lol. Specially sukhoi-30MKI which is huge jet fighter. U should have said PAK-FA, MCA lol cheers.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Hunter911 said:


> Italy <<Progress>> in reporting that the Italian government recently announced that the latest successful development of the ground effect of long-range anti-radar stealth out, and that the passive radar can detect and discover the whereabouts of F22. Tests showed that 3 times and found that simulation of intercepting F22, a success. Airborne role can reach 140 kilometers away from the ground to reach 1,800-kilometer range.
> 
> 
> It is learned that China has successfully developed a long-term ground-based passive radar system. The role of the system can reach 1,500 kilometers distance. Airborne systems are also at the same time. Recently, the Italian military said the trade sector is being carried out in consultation with the Chinese Anti-stealth technology. Message states that it is worth noting that technology exchange instead of in is the introduction.
> Come on,welcome the Indian LCA, SUK-30MKI fighters and so elite, you boldly fly over the Tibet airspace, and our farmers will consider the use of bamboo poles to beat down the fighters when in necessary. We will use the best pork privileges your pilots.



seriously i laughed for like 10 mins on this Thank u bro


----------



## BLACK_COBRA

A COMPARISON BETWEEN JF-17 AND LCA



Pakistans JF-17 Thunder  An AnalysisComments (12) | Trackback
Published Sunday, April 01, 2007 by Mihir. 
On March 23 2007, two JF-17 Thunder fighters took to the skies for the first time in Pakistan as a part of the Pakistan Day celebrations. Touted to be Pakistans first home made fighter, the JF-17 is expected to be the Pakistan Air Forces frontline fighter well into the future. With this article, Ive made an attempt to examine the JF-17 in the Indo-Pak context. But first, some background information on the program.
The program began in 1986 as the Super-7, when China signed a $550 million deal with Grumman to modernise its fleet of J-7 (MiG-21s manufactured in China under license) fighters. The United States ceased technical assistance following the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989, and the project almost ground to a halt. However, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) managed to keep the program alive with its own resources, as the FC-1. The project got a new lease of life in 1999, when Pakistan and China signed an agreement to jointly develop and produce the FC-1 with both countries contributing 50% of the funds. Russias Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group provided technical assistance. The FC-1 (Designated JF-17 Thunder by Pakistan) was supposed to be a lightweight all-weather multi-role fighter, which would replace Pakistans fleet of Mirage-III, F-7, and A-5 aircraft, whose safety record is going downhill by the day. The Pakistani version would sport a Western avionics suite, which included the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 radar, a variant of which is already in service with the Pakistan Air Force on its F-7 fighters. It would be powered by one Russian Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine reported in November 2006 that Pakistani officials expect the first contract for 16 aircraft (split equally with China) to be awarded next year, with deliveries as early as 2007. A full-rate production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%. The overall Pakistani requirement is expected to be around 150 fighters.
Although the Pakistanis tried to demonstrate with the Pakistan Day flypast that everything was tickety-boo, this is far from the truth. The Western avionics are nowhere to be seen, and supplier decisions do not appear to have been made. Radar integration, a challenging job under the best of circumstances, seems to have run into problems. The task is complicated in no small part by the lack of space available in the JF-17s radome. It is now widely claimed that the first batch of Pakistani JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics and radar. The weapons package is yet to be finalised. While China is expected to push its PL-9 dogfight missile and the yet untested SD-10 beyond visual range air to air missile, the South Africans have reportedly offered their A-Darter and T-Darter missiles. In January 2007, the head of the Russian Defence Ministrys International Cooperation Department, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich, announced that Russia had denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines. In Indian circles, this was taken to be a total Russian denial. Sinodefence.com, a Chinese military website reports that while five RD-93s have been purchased to power the prototypes, an agreement on the further purchase and re-export of the engine is still pending. To make things worse, the Chinese have yet to make any firm commitments, and appear to have lost interest in inducting the FC-1, preferring the more capable J-10 instead.
Given development time-frame and mission profile, comparisons between the JF-17 and Indias Tejas light combat aircraft are inevitable. But similarities, if any, are merely superficial. The Tejas, meant to replace Indias massive fleet of MiG-21s, is a wholly different project as far as technology is concerned. Its airframe, made of advanced carbon fibre composites, is light years ahead of the Thunders all-metal airframe. The ADA, HAL, and NAL invested considerable time, effort, and resources in its development, and came up with what is arguably one of the finest airframes in the world. The same goes for the Tejas aerodynamics which, because of the compound delta-wing, extensive wing-body blending, and low wing loading are superior to those of the Thunder, which has a more conventional layout along the lines of the MiG-21, the F-16, and a rejected Soviet light fighter design. As far as flight dynamics and control go, the Tejas, with its relaxed static stability and quadruplex, full authority fly-by-wire digital flight control system, is far more advanced than the Thunder, which still features conventional controls (fly-by-wire exists only for pitch control). The Tejas then, is a state of the art combat aircraft which will be Indias first step towards self-reliance. Program wise, it is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, considering not just the technology involved, but also the scope of the project. In the light of this argument, its longer timeline is hardly surprising. But the Thunder, despite Pakistans best efforts to package it as indigenous, is anything but. Pakistans contribution to the design and development of the project is close to nothing. Even today, the plane does not sport any Pakistani systems. It is at best a cheap and low/medium-tech Chinese aircraft that Pakistan can mass produce. As Siva, a contributor on Bharat Rakshak points out, the JF-17 is more comparable to the HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer  since both have an all-metal airframe, conventional controls, and an externally sourced engine. And the Sitara was developed even faster than the Thunder.
This is not to say that the JF-17 is a bad aircraft. It will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the flagging Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as worthless would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force  just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldnt prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead  both airframe wise as well as avionics wise


----------



## DaRk WaVe

BLACK_COBRA said:


> A COMPARISON BETWEEN JF-17 AND LCA
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistans JF-17 Thunder  An AnalysisComments (12) | Trackback
> Published Sunday, April 01, 2007 by Mihir.
> On March 23 2007, two JF-17 Thunder fighters took to the skies for the first time in Pakistan as a part of the Pakistan Day celebrations. Touted to be Pakistans first home made fighter, the JF-17 is expected to be the Pakistan Air Forces frontline fighter well into the future. With this article, Ive made an attempt to examine the JF-17 in the Indo-Pak context. But first, some background information on the program.
> The program began in 1986 as the Super-7, when China signed a $550 million deal with Grumman to modernise its fleet of J-7 (MiG-21s manufactured in China under license) fighters. The United States ceased technical assistance following the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989, and the project almost ground to a halt. However, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) managed to keep the program alive with its own resources, as the FC-1. The project got a new lease of life in 1999, when Pakistan and China signed an agreement to jointly develop and produce the FC-1 with both countries contributing 50% of the funds. Russias Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group provided technical assistance. The FC-1 (Designated JF-17 Thunder by Pakistan) was supposed to be a lightweight all-weather multi-role fighter, which would replace Pakistans fleet of Mirage-III, F-7, and A-5 aircraft, whose safety record is going downhill by the day. The Pakistani version would sport a Western avionics suite, which included the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 radar, a variant of which is already in service with the Pakistan Air Force on its F-7 fighters. It would be powered by one Russian Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine reported in November 2006 that Pakistani officials expect the first contract for 16 aircraft (split equally with China) to be awarded next year, with deliveries as early as 2007. A full-rate production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%. *The overall Pakistani requirement is expected to be around 150 fighters*( its 250 now)
> *Although the Pakistanis tried to demonstrate with the Pakistan Day flypast that everything was tickety-boo, this is far from the truth*. The Western avionics are nowhere to be seen, and supplier decisions do not appear to have been made. Radar integration, a challenging job under the best of circumstances, seems to have run into problems. The task is complicated in no small part by the lack of space available in the JF-17s radome. It is now widely claimed that the first batch of Pakistani JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics and radar. The weapons package is yet to be finalised. While China is expected to push its PL-9 dogfight missile and the yet untested SD-10 beyond visual range air to air missile, the South Africans have reportedly offered their A-Darter and T-Darter missiles. *In January 2007, the head of the Russian Defence Ministrys International Cooperation Department, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich, announced that Russia had denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines*. In Indian circles, this was taken to be a total Russian denial. Sinodefence.com, a Chinese military website reports that while five RD-93s have been purchased to power the prototypes, an agreement on the further purchase and re-export of the engine is still pending. To make things worse, the Chinese have yet to make any firm commitments, and appear to have lost interest in inducting the FC-1, preferring the more capable J-10 instead.
> Given development time-frame and mission profile, comparisons between the JF-17 and Indias Tejas light combat aircraft are inevitable. But similarities, if any, are merely superficial. The Tejas, meant to replace Indias massive fleet of MiG-21s, is a wholly different project as far as technology is concerned. Its airframe, made of advanced carbon fibre composites, is light years ahead of the Thunders all-metal airframe. The ADA, HAL, and NAL invested considerable time, effort, and resources in its development, and came up with what is arguably one of the finest airframes in the world. The same goes for the Tejas aerodynamics which, because of the compound delta-wing, extensive wing-body blending, and low wing loading are superior to those of the Thunder, which has a more conventional layout along the lines of the MiG-21, the F-16, and a rejected Soviet light fighter design. As far as flight dynamics and control go, the Tejas, with its relaxed static stability and quadruplex, full authority fly-by-wire digital flight control system, is far more advanced than the Thunder, which still features conventional controls (fly-by-wire exists only for pitch control). The Tejas then, is a state of the art combat aircraft which will be Indias first step towards self-reliance.* Program wise, it is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale* , considering not just the technology involved, but also the scope of the project. In the light of this argument, its longer timeline is hardly surprising. But the Thunder, despite Pakistans best efforts to package it as indigenous, is anything but. Pakistans contribution to the design and development of the project is close to nothing. Even today, the plane does not sport any Pakistani systems. It is at best a cheap and low/medium-tech Chinese aircraft that Pakistan can mass produce. *As Siva, a contributor on Bharat Rakshak points out, the JF-17 is more comparable to the HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer  since both have an all-metal airframe, conventional controls, and an externally sourced engine. And the Sitara was developed even faster than the Thunder*.
> This is not to say that the JF-17 is a bad aircraft. It will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the flagging Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as worthless would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force  just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldnt prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead  both airframe wise as well as avionics wise



pretty old article and full of jokes and probably written by some stupid BR member


----------



## satishkumarcsc

BLACK_COBRA said:


> A COMPARISON BETWEEN JF-17 AND LCA
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistans JF-17 Thunder  An AnalysisComments (12) | Trackback
> Published Sunday, April 01, 2007 by Mihir.
> On March 23 2007, two JF-17 Thunder fighters took to the skies for the first time in Pakistan as a part of the Pakistan Day celebrations. Touted to be Pakistans first home made fighter, the JF-17 is expected to be the Pakistan Air Forces frontline fighter well into the future. With this article, Ive made an attempt to examine the JF-17 in the Indo-Pak context. But first, some background information on the program.
> The program began in 1986 as the Super-7, when China signed a $550 million deal with Grumman to modernise its fleet of J-7 (MiG-21s manufactured in China under license) fighters. The United States ceased technical assistance following the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989, and the project almost ground to a halt. However, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) managed to keep the program alive with its own resources, as the FC-1. The project got a new lease of life in 1999, when Pakistan and China signed an agreement to jointly develop and produce the FC-1 with both countries contributing 50% of the funds. Russias Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group provided technical assistance. The FC-1 (Designated JF-17 Thunder by Pakistan) was supposed to be a lightweight all-weather multi-role fighter, which would replace Pakistans fleet of Mirage-III, F-7, and A-5 aircraft, whose safety record is going downhill by the day. The Pakistani version would sport a Western avionics suite, which included the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 radar, a variant of which is already in service with the Pakistan Air Force on its F-7 fighters. It would be powered by one Russian Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine reported in November 2006 that Pakistani officials expect the first contract for 16 aircraft (split equally with China) to be awarded next year, with deliveries as early as 2007. A full-rate production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%. The overall Pakistani requirement is expected to be around 150 fighters.
> Although the Pakistanis tried to demonstrate with the Pakistan Day flypast that everything was tickety-boo, this is far from the truth. The Western avionics are nowhere to be seen, and supplier decisions do not appear to have been made. Radar integration, a challenging job under the best of circumstances, seems to have run into problems. The task is complicated in no small part by the lack of space available in the JF-17s radome. It is now widely claimed that the first batch of Pakistani JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics and radar. The weapons package is yet to be finalised. While China is expected to push its PL-9 dogfight missile and the yet untested SD-10 beyond visual range air to air missile, the South Africans have reportedly offered their A-Darter and T-Darter missiles. In January 2007, the head of the Russian Defence Ministrys International Cooperation Department, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich, announced that Russia had denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines. In Indian circles, this was taken to be a total Russian denial. Sinodefence.com, a Chinese military website reports that while five RD-93s have been purchased to power the prototypes, an agreement on the further purchase and re-export of the engine is still pending. To make things worse, the Chinese have yet to make any firm commitments, and appear to have lost interest in inducting the FC-1, preferring the more capable J-10 instead.
> Given development time-frame and mission profile, comparisons between the JF-17 and Indias Tejas light combat aircraft are inevitable. But similarities, if any, are merely superficial. The Tejas, meant to replace Indias massive fleet of MiG-21s, is a wholly different project as far as technology is concerned. Its airframe, made of advanced carbon fibre composites, is light years ahead of the Thunders all-metal airframe. The ADA, HAL, and NAL invested considerable time, effort, and resources in its development, and came up with what is arguably one of the finest airframes in the world. The same goes for the Tejas aerodynamics which, because of the compound delta-wing, extensive wing-body blending, and low wing loading are superior to those of the Thunder, which has a more conventional layout along the lines of the MiG-21, the F-16, and a rejected Soviet light fighter design. As far as flight dynamics and control go, the Tejas, with its relaxed static stability and quadruplex, full authority fly-by-wire digital flight control system, is far more advanced than the Thunder, which still features conventional controls (fly-by-wire exists only for pitch control). The Tejas then, is a state of the art combat aircraft which will be Indias first step towards self-reliance. Program wise, it is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, considering not just the technology involved, but also the scope of the project. In the light of this argument, its longer timeline is hardly surprising. But the Thunder, despite Pakistans best efforts to package it as indigenous, is anything but. Pakistans contribution to the design and development of the project is close to nothing. Even today, the plane does not sport any Pakistani systems. It is at best a cheap and low/medium-tech Chinese aircraft that Pakistan can mass produce. As Siva, a contributor on Bharat Rakshak points out, the JF-17 is more comparable to the HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer  since both have an all-metal airframe, conventional controls, and an externally sourced engine. And the Sitara was developed even faster than the Thunder.
> This is not to say that the JF-17 is a bad aircraft. It will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the flagging Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as worthless would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force  just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldnt prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead  both airframe wise as well as avionics wise



These were one of the oldest articles in Livefist. And I know this guy Mihir from Orkut. This guy knows more about physics than anyone else in this board. But this article is crap because at the time he wrote this, The Radar wasn't finalised nor the engine. Things have changed.


----------



## sudhir007

LCA&#8217;s induction into IAF in 2012

LCA&#8217;s induction into IAF in 2012: M M Palam Raju IDRW.ORG

The Light Combat Aircraft will be inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2012 after operational clearance in 2010-11, Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said here today.

An agreement with Russia for next generation aircraft and transport aircraft was being worked out. Raju, however, did not give any timeframe and details. Asked about the Arunachal issue with China,Raju said&#8221;We will not underplay any perception of threat as a nation we are ready to meet any eventuality.&#8221;He also said in the perspective of increasing border trade, the problem with China has become the second largest trade partner of India


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas completed the 1165 Test Flights. (22-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1163 Test Flights. (21-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1162 Test Flights. (20-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1160 Test Flights. (19-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1159 Test Flights. (14-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1158 Test Flights. (12-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1156 Test Flights. (08-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1155 Test Flights. (07-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1154 Test Flights. (06-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1153 Test Flights. (05-Aug-09) 

Aeronautical Development Agency


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## blueoval79

*India's light combat aircraft to phase out Russian jets*


NEW DELHI, Aug 28 (Reuters) - India will begin deploying its first locally made supersonic combat aircraft next year and gradually phase out its ageing fleet of Russian fighters, defence officials said on Friday.

Five Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) costing about $31 million each have already been manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and undergoing trials, while eight more will be ready by mid-2010, defence officials said.

"We can say 2012 is the key for our air force when we will not only have many LCAs, but by then we should also be able to induct more advanced multi-role fighters in the fleet," said air force spokesman Wing Commander T.K. Singha.

India started field trials to buy 126 multi-role fighter jets last week, defence officials said, moving forward on a $10.4 billion deal to modernise the air force.

Boeing's (BA.N) F/A-18 Super Hornet, France's Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies, are in the race for the contract, one of the biggest in play.

"So we are looking at a scenario, where we will be able to raise our squadron strength considerably with more power," Singha said.

India wants to increase its air force squadrons from 34 (612 fighters) at present to 42 (756 fighters) by 2020 with modern aircraft.

Twenty LCAs will be deployed by 2012 and the plan is to manufacture 20 more in coordination with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), a DRDO official said in New Delhi.

"The LCA is now on track and the DRDO is very keen to produce more such aircraft indigenously," a DRDO spokesman said.

The induction of the LCAs was delayed by years of technical problems that forced scientists to go back to the drawing boards and rework the single-seat fighter's design and engines.

India's defence ministry began pushing for the LCA after the country lost nearly 200 Russian-made MiG series aircraft in crashes since 1990, blamed by the air force on manufacturing defects.

India, one of the world's biggest arms importers, plans to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to upgrade its largely Soviet-era arsenal to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China.

"The LCA trials are in full swing and they could replace even the MiG 23 and MiG 27 if everything works to plan," said a defence official, who declined to be named because he is not authorised to speak to the media.

India's light combat aircraft to phase out Russian jets | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters

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## marcos98

i dont know if these were posted before , but here it is 
anyways.
LCA Tejas fully loaded

View attachment 4699

View attachment 4700

View attachment 4701

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## BRAHMOS

IAF has placed orders for 20 mark 1 LCA versions ...

Tejas  IAF Induction


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## BRAHMOS

View attachment b66ae6b557af5bb73276ddccb0616bd9.jpg


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## BRAHMOS



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## BRAHMOS

LCA is in production ....


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## sudhir007

BRAHMOS said:


> IAF has placed orders for 20 mark 1 LCA versions ...
> 
> Tejas* IAF Induction



very old news already posted


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## BRAHMOS

sudhir007 said:


> very old news already posted



sorry sir, I was so exited to know that LCA is under production, 20 to roll out and another 40+ to be orderd by IAF... cool...


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## Gabbar

Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight​


After 20 years in the making, the Kaveri jet engine will finally take to the skies.

In 1989, Dr Mohana Rao, then a junior technician at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, immersed himself in the ambitious Kaveri programme, which was designing a jet engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. After pushing the Kaveri through two decades of heartbreak and achievement, Dr Rao is now the Director of GTRE. And his baby, the Kaveri engine, is ready to fly.

*This week, a fully built Kaveri engine will be transported to a testing facility outside Moscow called the Gromov Flight Research Institute. Here, a giant IL-76 aircraft will have one of its four engines replaced with a Kaveri. Russian and GTRE experts will then evaluate the Kaveris performance while the IL-76 flies.*

Before the actual flight tests, Russian experts at Moscows Central Institute of Aviation Motors will run ground checks on the Kaveris performance, in conditions that simulate altitudes up to 15 kilometers (49,200 feet).

Business Standard visited the Kaveri ground test bed at GTRE, Bangalore, where Russian experts are finishing pre-acceptance checks on the Kaveri engine that is headed for their facilities in Russia. The giant turbofan engine, suspended from a ceiling bracket, was being revved up gradually. As it roared to a deafening crescendo, engineers monitored the Kaveris power output, watching carefully from behind a bullet-proof glass window.

The Kaveris development is complete, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao, In ground testing at GTRE it met the performance parameters laid down in 1998. The next step is to confirm that it performs during flight. A 50-person GTRE team will travel with the engine to Moscow and participate in the flight trials over the next 3-4 months.

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.

*For the DRDO (GTRE is a DRDO laboratory) even a successful Kaveri flight will be a bittersweet end to one of Indias most savagely criticised development programmes. A measure of success, on the one hand, in an ambitious technological leapfrog to building a modern jet engine, something only a few countries can do. On the other hand, the Kaveri has failed to provide an engine for the Tejas, even after spending Rs 3000 crores.*

The reason was two-fold, explains Mohana Rao. The Kaveri turned out 15% heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg.

Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; the Kaveris maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated.

But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine.

We need more thrust without increasing the size of the engine, says Mohana Rao. That means getting better technologies from a more experienced foreign partner. We have chosen (French aero-engine major) Snecma. The Defence Ministry has approved the tie-up.

*Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russias NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma. *

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## SinoIndusFriendship

BRAHMOS said:


>



Those are beautiful pictures I must say.  It might be possible by 2020 India will beat Germany + UK + France.... maybe....

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## LCA Tejas

BRAHMOS said:


> View attachment b66ae6b557af5bb73276ddccb0616bd9.jpg



When the looks could itself kill, as now the Kaveri is finished and LCA is already in production... These Pictures are just awsome.... LCA rocks


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## sancho

Gabbar said:


> *
> The Kaveris development is complete,* confirmed Dr Mohana Rao, In ground testing at GTRE it met the performance parameters laid down in 1998. The next step is to confirm that it performs during flight. A 50-person GTRE team will travel with the engine to Moscow and participate in the flight trials over the next 3-4 months.
> 
> India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.
> 
> For the DRDO (GTRE is a DRDO laboratory) even a successful Kaveri flight will be a bittersweet end to one of Indias most savagely criticised development programmes. A measure of success, on the one hand, in an ambitious technological leapfrog to building a modern jet engine, something only a few countries can do. On the other hand, the Kaveri has failed to provide an engine for the Tejas, even after spending Rs 3000 crores.
> 
> The reason was two-fold, explains Mohana Rao. The Kaveri turned out 15% heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; *the Kaveris maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough.* The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated.
> 
> But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine.
> 
> We need more thrust without increasing the size of the engine, says Mohana Rao. That means getting better technologies from a more experienced foreign partner. *We have chosen (French aero-engine major) Snecma. The Defence Ministry has approved the tie-up.*
> 
> Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russias NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma.


Good and bad news! Good that the development is completed, but bad that it only provides 65kN, which really is way behind. The only way to make all the money worth it is to use it in another fighter and the coop with Snecma and the offer of intergration into Rafale would be the only, but also best way for us!


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Good and bad news! Good that the development is completed, but bad that it only provides 65kN, which really is way behind. The only way to make all the money worth it is to use it in another fighter and the coop with Snecma and the offer of intergration into Rafale would be the only, but also best way for us!



Yah u r right i think it is a good new at least we complete program i know it is not worth of lca but if we can reduce some weight we can put this engine into supersonic (ajt) like T-50 etc.... and may be it will be a platform for our future engine for mca and other. You can see in the whole world only few countries make engine.


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## Tejas-MkII

i think its a typo ..,in place of 85 shuklaji put 65...

because mohan rao saying development is complete so it should achieve its initial design spec: 85KN..


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Yah u r right i think it is a good new at least we complete program i know it is not worth of lca but if we can reduce some weight we can put this engine into supersonic (ajt) like T-50 etc.... and may be it will be a platform for our future engine for mca and other. You can see in the whole world only few countries make engine.


I think for Rafale we don't even have to reduce weight, but I agree, other possibilities are for trainer aircrafts, UCAVS, or even MCA, although I still doubt MCA is needed. Anyway, we should find a potential platform as soon as possible, otherwise it causes only more money.


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## arihant

sancho said:


> I still doubt MCA is needed.



MCA is totally different from LCA. MCA will be twin engine and will stealthy and its capacity will be 20 Ton rather then 10 Ton.

So, one cannot say that we need butter but not bread. We need both.


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## sancho

arihant said:


> MCA is totally different from LCA. MCA will be twin engine and will stealthy and its capacity will be 20 Ton rather then 10 Ton.
> 
> So, one cannot say that we need butter but not bread. We need both.


I didn't mean it in comparison to LCA, but imo there is no need anymore for a special manned strike aircraft after 2020 (and MCA won't come before). With the high number and types of manned aircrafts IAF is inducting in the next decade (LCA, MKI, MMRCA, FGFA = over 500 fighters), there is no real need to develop another twin engine 5. gen fighter specialised mainly for strikes. 
UCAVS like the NG X47, Mig Skat, Dassault nEUROn are the future, because they are way cheaper, can be made smaller and stealthier, and are better in strike missions that normally are too risky for normal pilots. 
But that's a different issue that belongs to another thread.


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## arihant

sancho said:


> I didn't mean it in comparison to LCA, but imo there is no need anymore for a special manned strike aircraft after 2020 (and MCA won't come before). With the high number and types of manned aircrafts IAF is inducting in the next decade (LCA, MKI, MMRCA, FGFA = over 500 fighters), there is no real need to develop another twin engine 5. gen fighter specialised mainly for strikes.
> UCAVS like the NG X47, Mig Skat, Dassault nEUROn are the future, because they are way cheaper, can be made smaller and stealthier, and are better in strike missions that normally are too risky for normal pilots.
> But that's a different issue that belongs to another thread.



India wish to develop weapons self. This will help him to become self reliance and also, will increase chance of export to friendly countries.


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## Gabbar

Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy​

Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navyAjai Shukla / Bangalore September 08, 2009, 1:01 IST

The indigenous Kaveri aircraft engine, soon to make its debut flight, lacks the muscle needed by Indias Tejas light combat aircraft, which the engine was designed to power. In its present form, the Kaveri will never power a modern fighter.


*But the engines technology  developed by the Defence R&D Organisation, over two decades, at a cost of Rs 3000 crore  will not be wasted. The Indian Navy is snapping up the Kaveri for powering its growing fleet of warships.*


*Business Standard has learnt that the navy has officially informed the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (the DRDO laboratory that developed the Kaveri) that naval warships will needs 40 Kaveri Marine Gas Turbines (KMGTs) over the next 15 years.*


In an important signal of its support, the navy has agreed to fund 25 per cent of the cost of the KMGT project.
GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The navy has extensively tested these engines at Visakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power. 


Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide boost power, needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide Indias latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 Mw of boost. The Kaveris more modest 12 Mw is sufficient only for smaller warships. 

While the marine Kaveris basic performance has been established (even the PM has seen a demonstration in Visakhapatnam), the GTRE Director, Dr Mohana Rao, is not yet satisfied with the basic design.


So far, the KMGT is just a spin-off from the aero version, Rao told Business Standard in Bangalore. I want to give the navy an engine with far greater endurance. An aero engines life is just 3000 hours; a marine engines life should be 30,000 hours. I must physically test the KMGT for at least 15,000 hours.


GTRE is going ahead with developing 3-4 test engines and beginning trials within three years. The trials will be conducted in a marine environment, which will include high humidity, and prolonged exposure to salt.

*We plan to begin delivery in about 6 years,* says the GTRE Director, We hope to keep the cost below Rs 25-30 crores, which is considerably cheaper than buying imported gas turbines.


Earlier this year, the US State Department had stopped General Electric from fitting its LM-2500 turbines on the INS Shivalik, apparently because GE had not obtained proper permissions from the US government.

Other than the 40 KMGTs, the Indian Navy has also issued a letter, on 6 th April 09, laying out a requirement for 42 Gas Turbine Generators, or GTGs. 

These are de-rated versions of the marine Kaveri, which will be used for generating electrical power on warships. Each GTG generates 1.2 Megawatts of power.


*The Indian Navy, an enthusiastic proponent of indigenisation, proposes to replace the diesel generators fitted on older warships with the Kaveri GTG.* If it performs well over a period of time, the new-generation warships will also get electrical power from the Kaveri GTG. Currently, only the Rajput and Delhi class of destroyers use gas turbines for power generation.

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## Dash

Nice article.....mant thanks


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed total 1168 test flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-214,PV2-128,PV3-152,LSP1-54,LSP2-82)


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## sudhir007

ADA WebSite - Home

LCA-Tejas has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully. (11-Sep-09).

* LCA has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-218,PV2-128,PV3-153,LSP1-54,LSP2-82).
* 218th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Sep 09.


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## marcos98

*Which enginewill power Tejas*
Late next month, a critical competition process kicks off for the selection of an alternate power source for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas). After pre-bid feasibility studies that were conducted through much of 2008, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) -- the umbrella body of agencies involved in the LCA's development -- sent out Requests for Proposal (RfP) to Ohio-based GE Aviation for the F-414-400 and Hallbergmoos (Germany) based Eurojet Turbo GmbH for the EJ200. Both companies are required to submit their technical proposals by October 12. Technical evaluations of the engines will be complete by the end of the year, though these are planned to be truncated since a lot of technical work has been pre-completed during the feasibility studies. The technical evaluation will be followed by a full schedule of trials. As you might remember, it was the Defence Ministry's Aeronautics R&D Board Propulsion Panel, headed by ADA Project Director (Propulsion Systems) Dr KVL Rao, which recommended in July last year that the LCA programme rapidly begin a process to choose between the two mentioned engines to power upto 100 fighters (with an option to power 60 more). It was after his recommendations were submitted to the ADA that feasibility studies were begun with both GE and Eurojet for their respective turbofans.

Modifications are a non-issue as of now, with both GE and Eurojet declaring that their engines can fit in the LCA's fuselage. A limited number of engines will be bought direct from the winning contender, while the rest will be license-built at HAL's engine factory in Koraput, Orissa. With all options exercised, the deal could be worth close to $600-million.

The obvious tie-in with the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is the lifeblood of the Tejas new engine bid. While the EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F404 powers Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as well as the JAS-39 Gripen IN.

According to IAF sources embedded with ADA, on paper, both engines "just about" meet what the air force wants and needs from the LCA in terms of thrust. Having established that, what are the possible criteria of selection, if one were to put aside political and/or other considerations?

Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected. Both engines say they meet the maximum thrust requirements demanded by the IAF. The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering. Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.

Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.

Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.

Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.

Point 4, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.

The selection process begins next month.

_General Electric's F414-GE-400 for the Tejas LCA Mk2 and General Electric's F110-132A for the F-16IN Super Viper. GE will sweep it all...game, set and match! GE also gets to set up an engine MRO workshop for CFM56 and GE90 turbofans at Nagpur, thereby overshooting--in dollar terms--the MoD-mandated industrial offsets requirements. Just prior to announcing the M-MRCA competition's winner, the MoD will announce that the the DPP is being 'modified' to recognise the strength and value of 'strategic' indirect aviation-related industrial offsets. _


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## sancho

marcos98 said:


> _General Electric's F414-GE-400 for the Tejas LCA Mk2 and General Electric's F110-132A for the F-16IN Super Viper. GE will sweep it all...game, set and match! GE also gets to set up an engine MRO workshop for CFM56 and GE90 turbofans at Nagpur, thereby overshooting--in dollar terms--the MoD-mandated industrial offsets requirements. Just prior to announcing the M-MRCA competition's winner, the MoD will announce that the the DPP is being 'modified' to recognise the strength and value of 'strategic' indirect aviation-related industrial offsets. _


If commonality is the key to MMRCA, don't you think F18SH with the same GE 414 engine is way more likely than F16IN?
What the report is missing is that Eurojet has offered TVC with the engine and a lot of ToT that the GE can't offer. TVC and ToT that could help to improve Kaveri is imo a big point, especially if you keep in mind that the engine is lighter and EADS already assists to reduce LCAs weight.


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## sudhir007

Defunct Humanity: Indian delegation visited RD-33MK production plant

The Indian military delegation has visited in September, 15 a Russian 'Chernyshev' plant, where RD-33/RD-33MK engines for MiG-29K/MiG-35 are manufactured. The deputy Minister of Defense R.K.Singh and HAL's chief Ashok Nayak headed the delegation, 'Interfax-AVN' news agency reports. Two years ago India and Russia signed agreement for RD-33 ser. 3 engine license production in India and ToT. Only the first 20-40 aircrafts will be produced with imported of the shelf GE404 engines. The current delays in development fully indigenous 'Kavery' engine for HAL's LCA fighter and the new IAF ambitions for better payload pushes Indian tops for seeking more powerful engine for upgrading LCA. The currently installed GE404 doesn't fulfill the IAF specification and isn't powerful enough for Navy LCA variant. According to the new request they need minimum 90 kN wet thrust for the strengthened LCA airframe and increased load. 


There are only three engines on the market fit this request: the American GE414, British-EU EJ200 and Russian RD-33MK. Between them only GE414 can be installed instead of previously used engine without big airframe rework, but US proved their political unreliability in the past when put embargo on India. Then India seemingly is careful to not repeat its mistake, two other engines have a chance to be chosen as the LCA mark 2 engine solution till 'Kaveri' is ready.


The strong side of RD-33MK engine is its unique in fly reliability: unlike other contenders it works well on any AoA. Thus non AoA limitation is needed. The options for thrust vectoring and the single engine configuration (RD-93) are ready too, - something what EJ200 have no yet. Also, if India chooses RD-33MK, it has a chance to achieve the long wished unification: the LCA fleet will have common engine logistic with MiG-29, MiG-29MK and possibly MiG-35s, while the serial production line for RD-33 class is already under construction in India. After paying ToT money for RD-33 ser. 3 there is no need for paying double sum for RD-33MK.


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## Haanzo

^^^^ the above article is just the interpretation of the author that the RD-33MK *MAY* be used for the lca 

the ej-2000 and the f-414 ALONE are being evaluated presently , RD engine was never in contention ,the prouction facility for the engines will be for the upgraded mig-29s and for mig-29k of the navy- which presumably will be the long term carrier aircraft with the indian navy hence the entire line will be brought to india ..other than that it definitely wont be used on the LCA for sure .....


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## sudhir007

> hence the entire line will be brought to india ..other than that it definitely wont be used on the LCA for sure .....


that right i think also the fact is western engine is supirier then russian and weight problem ej200 & ge414 is lighter then rd-33

LCA
engine	KAVERI
L	137.4
D	35.8
W	1100/950
D/T 52
FULL A/b 90

JF-17
engine	RD-33
L	167.3
D	40.9
W	1055
D/T 50
FULL A/B 81.3

G-39/LCA
engine GE404
L 154
D 35
W 1036
D/T 55
FULL A/B 85

EF
engine EJ200
L 157
D 29
W 989/1035
D/T 60
FULL A/B 90

F/A-18E/F
engine GE414
L 154
D 35
W 1110
D/T 62
FULL A/B 98


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## Udhaya

GE Aviation's F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters?

GE Aviation&#039;s F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters? | India Defence


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## sudhir007

Udhaya said:


> GE Aviation's F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters?
> 
> GE Aviation's F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Fighters? | India Defence



very old news


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## PakShaheen79

So guys! Which one is final engine... Too many news there i am kind of confused about this engine thing.


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## sudhir007

PakShaheen79 said:


> So guys! Which one is final engine... Too many news there i am kind of confused about this engine thing.


I think iaf goes for ef-200. RFP issue at june-july this yr for 2 company ge & eurojet rfp submition date is oct. 2009


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## sudhir007

Navy backs Tejas with Rs 900 cr

Talk to navy fighter pilots about their air force counterparts and you cannot miss the message: air force pilots are pussycats&#8230; real fighter jocks fly from ships!

One of the most breathtaking sights in military aviation is a modern fighter landing on an aircraft carrier deck. Flying in at over 250 km per hour, it must halt within 100 metres, one-tenth the distance available to most land-based fighters. The pilot aims at a cable stretched across the landing area; a tail hook on the fighter&#8217;s rear fuselage catches the cable, effectively dragging the aircraft to a halt before it runs out of landing deck, subjecting the pilot to a deceleration 4.5 times the force of gravity.

It is called a THUMP-BASH technique. As the fighter thumps down onto the deck, the pilot bashes forward his throttle, revving up the engines to full power. It seems a crazy thing to do when trying to halt really quickly, but there&#8217;s a reason: if the tail hook misses all three arrestor cables, the fighter must have the power and speed to get airborne again before the end of the flight deck.

To hit the arrestor cables accurately, the pilot must descend steeply, hitting the deck twice as hard as his air force counterparts, who enjoy the luxury of levelling out at ground level, descending slowly till the wheels touch the runway.

&#8220;An arrested landing on an aircraft carrier is actually a controlled crash,&#8221; naval flight instructors invariably warn their cadets.

If it takes a Top Gun pilot to pull off such landings, it takes a superbly engineered aircraft to repeatedly absorb the stresses of these controlled crashes. The naval variant of India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is poised to enter this challenging playing field. And its prospects have been boosted by the Indian Navy&#8217;s commitment to indigenisation.

Business Standard has learnt that the navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy&#8217;s plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.

But the LCA programme faces a bottleneck in choosing a new engine. Two uprated engines &#8212; the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ-200 &#8212; are currently being evaluated, but will be supplied only by 2013-14. And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.

P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency, which coordinates the LCA programme, explains: &#8220;We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier.&#8221;

Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier. This will also be used for pilots&#8217; training and for training maintenance crews.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Business Standard has learnt that the navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.
> 
> That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navys plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.


The Migs that are ordered so far are meant for INS Vikramaditya and not for IAC, so is it a mistake, or will the 16 Migs be all fighters on INS Vikramaditya?


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## k7x

Both IAC and Vikramaditya will carry Mig 29 & LCA. In addition to that they will have some ASW helis. 

LCA for Navy is really significant as it is must in our learning curve. 

$30 million is really cheap for an aircraft operating out of carrier.also Navy has indicated that it will induct 40 LCA. for both AC as well as a few shore based training. 

when IAC 2 and 3 are built probably they might go for some more.


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## sudhir007

k7x said:


> Both IAC and Vikramaditya will carry Mig 29 & LCA. In addition to that they will have some ASW helis.
> 
> LCA for Navy is really significant as it is must in our learning curve.
> 
> $30 million is really cheap for an aircraft operating out of carrier.also Navy has indicated that it will induct 40 LCA. for both AC as well as a few shore based training.
> 
> when IAC 2 and 3 are built probably they might go for some more.


I think for IAC-2 india will go for mca or fgfa naval version. or may be f-35c


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## sancho

k7x said:


> Both IAC and Vikramaditya will carry Mig 29 & LCA. In addition to that they will have some ASW helis.
> 
> LCA for Navy is really significant as it is must in our learning curve.
> 
> $30 million is really cheap for an aircraft operating out of carrier.also Navy has indicated that it will induct 40 LCA. for both AC as well as a few shore based training.
> 
> when IAC 2 and 3 are built probably they might go for some more.


That's what I meant the article says these are for IAC (btw it was reported that only one Vikrant class carrier will be build and the next one will be a bigger carrier - IN discussion thread), that would mean no N-LCAs for Vikramaditya.
I doubt the number of 40 is still actuall, because even if Vikramaditya gets 6 too, there won't be 28 shore based just for reserve and training. Also don't forget that the Sea harriers was upg to serve till 2020 too!
Btw the $30 million unit cost is imo a good price, if you keep in mind that this is the price of the MK2 version, with further changes to be carrier capable. That means IAF LCA MK2 will cost less and the MK1 version could really come at prices of around $20 million each.


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## Tejas-MkII

*US puts Lockheed off Tejas flight path *

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi September 28, 2009, 0:18 IST 



Déjà vu for the US giant, as queries land at the eleventh hour.

The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin out of an important contract related to Indias Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Business Standard learns that Lockheed Martin, selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needed from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.

*Senior officials from Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, say they will not delay the naval version any longer. ADA has recommended to the Ministry of Defence that another consultant be chosen. It has put forward the names of Frances Dassault Aviation, and European consortium EADS.*

For Lockheed Martin, this is déjà vu. In 1993, it was selected to partner ADA in developing the Tejas high-tech flight control system (FCS). But after Indias nuclear tests in 1998, Washington ordered the company to terminate the partnership. *India eventually went it alone, developing the world class FCS that is on the Tejas today.*

Lockheed Martin is still fighting to salvage the situation. The company told Business Standard, *We are continuing our dialogue with the Aeronautical Development Agency and the US Department of Defense and are hopeful we will be able provide the consultancy desired by ADA on the Naval LCA.*

*But the decision now lies in the hands of V K Saraswat, scientific advisor to the defence minister.*

Lockheed Martins current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance (called Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the defence ministry awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA.

Foreign consultancy has been sought by ADA to introduce the Tejas into service without further delay. The air force Tejas, a single-seat, single-engine fighter, is at an advanced stage of testing. The naval Tejas, being developed around the twin-seater air force trainer, will take to the skies by mid-2010. But it will fly off an aircraft only in 2014, after getting a new, more powerful, engine. That is about when the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, being built in Kochi, will join the Indian Navy.

The immediate challenges before the naval Tejas  which the consultant will help to resolve  include strengthening the undercarriage to absorb the high impact of landing on aircraft carrier decks, fitting an arrestor hook at the tail of the aircraft to bring it to a quick halt after landing, and adding a flap on the front edge of the wings to slow the landing speed by almost 150 kmph.

In addition, the naval Tejas needs a fuel dump system, in case of an emergency just after take-off. The take-off weight of a Tejas, with full weapons load and fuel, is 12.5 tonnes. But for landing back on an aircraft carrier, it must be less than 9.5 tonnes. In an emergency, 2 tonnes of weapons and external fuel tanks will be instantly shed, but a system must be built in for jettisoning another tonne of fuel from the fighters wing tanks.

None of the US Navys most successful carrier-borne aircraft  the F-4 Phantom, the F-14 Tomcat and the F/A-18 Hornet  was built by Lockheed Martin. Despite that, ADA believes Lockheed Martins experience in designing the futuristic F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter qualifies it as a consultant.

All the earlier US navy aircraft had two engines, giving them the weight and strength to support a tail hook, explained P S Subramaniam, the director of ADA. But Lockheed Martin has designed the F-35 Lightning, which is a single-engine fighter with a tail hook.

Dassaults Rafale fighter and EADSs Eurofighter Typhoon are both twin-engine aircraft.


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## ejaz007

*Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme*
Dated 20/9/2009


Indian Navy has okay-ed the placement of an order for six Naval Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (N-LCA). At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, this will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy's plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers.

The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.

But the LCA programme faces a bottleneck in choosing a new engine. Two uprated engines -- the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ-200 -- are currently being evaluated, but will be supplied only by 2013-14. And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.

P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency, which coordinates the LCA programme, explains: "We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier."

Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier. This will also be used for pilots training and for training maintenance crews.

Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme | India Defence


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## Brisingr

*Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight *

After 20 years in the making, the Kaveri jet engine will finally take to the skies. In 1989, Dr Mohana Rao, then a junior technician at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, immersed himself in the ambitious Kaveri programme, which was designing a jet engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. After pushing the Kaveri through two decades of heartbreak and achievement, Dr Rao is now the Director of GTRE. And his baby, the Kaveri engine, is ready to fly.

This week, a fully built Kaveri engine will be transported to a testing facility outside Moscow called the Gromov Flight Research Institute. Here, a giant IL-76 aircraft will have one of its four engines replaced with a Kaveri. Russian and GTRE experts will then evaluate the Kaveri&#8217;s performance while the IL-76 flies.

Before the actual flight tests, Russian experts at Moscow&#8217;s Central Institute of Aviation Motors will run ground checks on the Kaveri&#8217;s performance, in conditions that simulate altitudes up to 15 kilometers (49,200 feet).

Business Standard visited the Kaveri ground test bed at GTRE, Bangalore, where Russian experts are finishing &#8220;pre-acceptance checks&#8221; on the Kaveri engine that is headed for their facilities in Russia. The giant turbofan engine, suspended from a ceiling bracket, was being revved up gradually. As it roared to a deafening crescendo, engineers monitored the Kaveri&#8217;s power output, watching carefully from behind a bullet-proof glass window.

&#8220;The Kaveri&#8217;s development is complete&#8221;, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao, &#8220;In ground testing at GTRE it met the performance parameters laid down in 1998. The next step is to confirm that it performs during flight. A 50-person GTRE team will travel with the engine to Moscow and participate in the flight trials over the next 3-4 months.&#8221;

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.

For the DRDO (GTRE is a DRDO laboratory) even a successful Kaveri flight will be a bittersweet end to one of India&#8217;s most savagely criticised development programmes. A measure of success, on the one hand, in an ambitious technological leapfrog to building a modern jet engine, something only a few countries can do. On the other hand, the Kaveri has failed to provide an engine for the Tejas, even after spending Rs 3000 crores.

&#8220;The reason was two-fold&#8221;, explains Mohana Rao. &#8220;The Kaveri turned out 15&#37; heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg.&#8221;

Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; the Kaveri&#8217;s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated.

But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine. &#8220;We need more thrust without increasing the size of the engine&#8221;, says Mohana Rao. &#8220;That means getting better technologies from a more experienced foreign partner. We have chosen (French aero-engine major) Snecma. The Defence Ministry has approved the tie-up.&#8221;

Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russia&#8217;s NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma. 


This news was published on &#8206;Sep 6, 2009&#8206;

Any one knew what happend later...any updates???

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## indiatech

*Naval LCA: US puts Lockheed Martin off Tejas flight path
*

The Lockheed Martin JSF-35 Lightening, which will also operate off aircraft carriers. The US company was to help India with the Naval Tejas, but Washington has not given clearance.


By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 28th Sept 09


The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant, Lockheed Martin, out of an important contract relating to Indias Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).


Business Standard has learned that Lockheed Martin, which was selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needs from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.


Senior officials from the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, say they will not delay the Naval Tejas any longer. The ADA has recommended to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that another consultant be chosen. It has put forward the names of Frances Dassault Aviation, and European consortium, EADS.


For Lockheed Martin, this is déjà vu. In 1993, it was selected to partner ADA in developing the Tejas high-tech flight control system (FCS). But after Indias nuclear tests in 1998, Washington ordered Lockheed Martin to terminate the partnership. India eventually went it alone, developing the world class FCS that is on the Tejas today.


Lockheed Martin is still fighting to salvage the situation. The company told Business Standard, We are continuing our dialogue with the Aeronautical Development Agency and the U.S. Department of Defense and are hopeful we will be able provide the consultancy desired by ADA on the Naval LCA.


But the decision now lies in the hands of Dr VK Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister.


Lockheed Martins current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance (called a Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the MoD awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA.


Foreign consultancy has been sought by ADA to introduce the Tejas into service without further delay. The air force Tejas, a single-seat, single-engine fighter, is at an advanced stage of testing. The naval Tejas, being developed around the twin-seater air force trainer, will only take to the skies by mid-2010. But it will only fly off an aircraft around 2014, after getting a new, more powerful, engine. That is about when the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, being built in Kochi, will join the Indian Navy.


The immediate challenges before the Naval Tejas --- which the consultant will help to resolve --- include strengthening the undercarriage to absorb the high impact of landing on aircraft carrier decks; fitting an arrestor hook at the tail of the aircraft to bring it to a quick halt after landing; and adding a flap on the front edge of the wings to slow down the landing speed by almost 150 kmph.


In addition, the Naval Tejas needs a fuel dump system in case of an emergency just after take-off. The take off weight of a Tejas, with full weapons load and fuel is around 12.5 tonnes but, for landing back on an aircraft carrier it must be less than 9.5 tonnes. In an emergency, 2 tonnes of weapons and external fuel tanks will be instantly shed; but a system must be built in for jettisoning another tonne of fuel from the fighters wing tanks.


None of the US Navys most successful carrier-borne aircraft --- the F-4 Phantom; the F-14 Tomcat and the F/A-18 Hornet --- were built by Lockheed Martin. Despite that, ADA believes Lockheed Martins experience in designing the futuristic F-35 Lightening Joint Strike Fighter qualifies it as a consultant.


All the earlier US navy aircraft had two engines, giving them the weight and strength to support a tail hook, explained Dr PS Subramaniam, the Director of ADA, But Lockheed Martin has designed the F-35 Lightening, which is a single-engine fighter with a tail hook.


Dassaults Rafale fighter and EADSs Eurofighter Typhoon are both twin-engine aircraft.


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## ironman

*India May Use Russian Engines For LCA​*
India is seriously considering to use the Russian 33/RD-33MK engines for the homegrown Light Combat Aircraft, as it already used the Indian Air Force [IAF] fleet of MiG-29 aircraft.

A high level Indian military delegation comprising of Defence Production secretary and Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Ashok Nayak recently visited a Russian &#8216;Chernyshev&#8217; plant where RD-33/RD-33MK engines for MiG-29K and MiG-35 are being manufactured.

As per an agreement signed between India and Russia, the license production of RD-33 Se.3 engine will happen in India as well as transfer of technology. Officials said that only the first 20 to 40 aircraft will be manufactured with imported of-the-shelf GE-404 engines.

The RD-33 MK engine has been deemed unique since it operates well on any AoA (angle of attack).

&#8220;India would benefit if it chooses the RD-33MK engine&#8221;, said a senior Indian Air force official, adding that this is because of the unification it will receive because of the common engine logistics it will achieve in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), MiG-29, MiG-29 MK and possibly the MiG-35. The serial production line for RD-33 class engine is already under construction in India. And after India pays transfer of technology amount for the RD-33 ser. 3 engine, it will not have to pay a double sum for the RD-33 MK engine.

The RD-33 series 3 is an upgraded version of the RD-33 powerful RD-33 turbofan engine with thrust vectoring for MiG family fighters. The engine provides superior maneuverability and enhances the fighter&#8217;s performance in close air engagements.

In 2005, Russia signed a $250 million deal with India to modernize engines for the MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. According to the terms of the deal, HAL will make 120 RD-33 series 3 jet engines at its Koraput plant for the upgrade of MiG-29 fighters. The contract will enable HAL to master the assembly of the RD-33 jet engines and use the experience in the assembly of next generation jet engines.

As for the delays in the development of fully indigenous &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine for HAL&#8217;s LCA fighter and other IAF aircraft, it is only forcing India to keep an eye out for a powerful engine for upgrading LCA. The currently installed GE404 doesn&#8217;t fulfill the IAF specification and is not powerful enough for Navy LCA variant. The other engines in the market that fit the bill are the American GE414, British-EU EJ200 and Russian RD-33MK who stand a chance to be chosen as the LCA mark 2 engine solution till the indigenous &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine is ready.


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## gogbot

ironman said:


> *India May Use Russian Engines For LCA​*
> India is seriously considering to use the Russian 33/RD-33MK engines for the homegrown Light Combat Aircraft, as it already used the Indian Air Force [IAF] fleet of MiG-29 aircraft.
> 
> A high level Indian military delegation comprising of Defence Production secretary and Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Ashok Nayak recently visited a Russian Chernyshev plant where RD-33/RD-33MK engines for MiG-29K and MiG-35 are being manufactured.
> 
> As per an agreement signed between India and Russia, the license production of RD-33 Se.3 engine will happen in India as well as transfer of technology. Officials said that only the first 20 to 40 aircraft will be manufactured with imported of-the-shelf GE-404 engines.
> 
> The RD-33 MK engine has been deemed unique since it operates well on any AoA (angle of attack).
> 
> India would benefit if it chooses the RD-33MK engine, said a senior Indian Air force official, adding that this is because of the unification it will receive because of the common engine logistics it will achieve in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), MiG-29, MiG-29 MK and possibly the MiG-35. The serial production line for RD-33 class engine is already under construction in India. And after India pays transfer of technology amount for the RD-33 ser. 3 engine, it will not have to pay a double sum for the RD-33 MK engine.
> 
> The RD-33 series 3 is an upgraded version of the RD-33 powerful RD-33 turbofan engine with thrust vectoring for MiG family fighters. The engine provides superior maneuverability and enhances the fighters performance in close air engagements.
> 
> In 2005, Russia signed a $250 million deal with India to modernize engines for the MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. According to the terms of the deal, HAL will make 120 RD-33 series 3 jet engines at its Koraput plant for the upgrade of MiG-29 fighters. The contract will enable HAL to master the assembly of the RD-33 jet engines and use the experience in the assembly of next generation jet engines.
> 
> As for the delays in the development of fully indigenous Kaveri engine for HALs LCA fighter and other IAF aircraft, it is only forcing India to keep an eye out for a powerful engine for upgrading LCA. The currently installed GE404 doesnt fulfill the IAF specification and is not powerful enough for Navy LCA variant. The other engines in the market that fit the bill are the American GE414, British-EU EJ200 and Russian RD-33MK who stand a chance to be chosen as the LCA mark 2 engine solution till the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready.



I am not an engineer but
Does the Russian engine give the LCA to trust vectoring capability ?

If this is the case then India should choose the RD-33mk for domestic production.

It would no doubt also be the cheapest option and have commonality with the already in fleet Mig-29.


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## sudhir007

gogbot said:


> I am not an engineer but
> Does the Russian engine give the LCA to trust vectoring capability ?
> 
> If this is the case then India should choose the RD-33mk for domestic production.
> 
> It would no doubt also be the cheapest option and have commonality with the already in fleet Mig-29.



but it will make lot of changes in dimension and iaf did not issue rfp for rd-33 only 2 co. involve in this ge for ge414 & euro jet for ej200.


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## Sapper

sudhir007 said:


> but it will make lot of changes in dimension and iaf did not issue rfp for rd-33 only 2 co. involve in this ge for ge414 & euro jet for ej200.



If India manages to acquire GE414 for LCA, it will be a real boost for the LCA program because it will not only increase the performance (payload and manouvering) of the LCA but also will provide LCA with an engine whose RAM (reliability, availability, maintainability) will be much higher than any option of Russian or Indian origin. Also GE414 is a proven engine for maritime operartions, so LCA induction into Navy will be far more easier.

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## sancho

gogbot said:


> I am not an engineer but
> Does the Russian engine give the LCA to trust vectoring capability ?
> 
> If this is the case then India should choose the RD-33mk for domestic production.
> 
> It would no doubt also be the cheapest option and have commonality with the already in fleet Mig-29.


I have some doubt about this news, the RD 33MK offers only 90kN thrust and the last reports says 95, or more is what IAF wants. Also its an old gen engine, whereas the EJ 200 offers latest techs that would help us way more in indigenous developments. Btw the RD 33 MK could be used with TVC on LCA yes, but TVC are on offer with EJ 200 too.


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> I have some doubt about this news, the RD 33MK offers only 90kN thrust and the last reports says 95, or more is what IAF wants. Also its an old gen engine, whereas the EJ 200 offers latest techs that would help us way more in indigenous developments. Btw the RD 33 MK could be used with TVC on LCA yes, but TVC are on offer with EJ 200 too.



EJ-2000 Has TVC, Then why would they not include that in the Euro fighter it self.

IF what you say is true then IAF has one more reason to go for the a TVC capable Typhoon which will use the same engine as the LCA-Mk1


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> EJ-2000 Has TVC, Then why would they not include that in the Euro fighter it self.
> 
> IF what you say is true then IAF has one more reason to go for the a TVC capable Typhoon which will use the same engine as the LCA-Mk1





> *AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA*
> By Andrew Doyle
> *
> Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant* to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).
> 
> The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.
> 
> The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.
> *
> Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4% on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts*, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.
> 
> This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.
> 
> In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.
> 
> EADS is leading the Eurofighter bid to win India's 126-aircraft medium multirole combat aircraft contest with the twin-engined Typhoon, and a deal to also equip the country's single-engined LCAs with the EJ200 would make the economics of establishing an in-country engine assembly line considerably more attractive.
> 
> The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and *flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.
> *
> The flight-control system can be configured *to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds*, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, *take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions*, he adds.
> 
> Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.



The TVC tech is new and wasn't on offer for EF so far, also some pilots say that the EF don't need it for maneuverability reasons. With the delta-canard design it already is one of the most agily fighters. 
Yes the same engine for LCA could be an advantage for EF, or F18SH, because of more commonality. But on the other side the EF has a high unitcost and is sadly not fully developed and I doubt that IAF will take any aircraft that has a risk of delays (EF, Mig 35, or Gripen NG).


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## Haanzo

> *EJ-2000 Has TVC, Then why would they not include that in the Euro fighter it self.*
> 
> IF what you say is true then IAF has one more reason to go for the a TVC capable Typhoon which will use the same engine as the LCA-Mk1



one simple question to you al-31f series engines have thrust vectoring so why RUSSIA dosent use them on its fighters...though the context is different ...E F is highly maneuverable with all the modern gizmos stuffed into it so it might be an option for future upgrades of eurofighter


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## Tejas-MkII

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade

*Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade *By Stephen Trimble

*Boeing is seeking an international launch customer for a 20% higher thrust version of the General Electric F414 turbofan that powers the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.*

*The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance,* said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F. 

*The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs(119KN).* The baseline F414-GE-400, which also powers the Saab Gripen demonstration aircraft, is itself a 35% higher thrust version of the F404 and entered service with the Super Hornet fleet in 1998.

More recently, the US Navy, Boeing and GE have been developing durability improvements to reduce foreign object damage and specific fuel consumption, Gower told reporters participating in a Boeing media tour.

While the USN seeks a new engine core to make the F414 more durable, some international customers are interested in a new engine fan that enables higher thrust, Gower said.

*"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it,"(not a very major change) *Gower said.

Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE, Gower said. 

The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version, Gower said. 

*Several countries, including India, Brazil, Denmark, Greece and Kuwait, are considering the F/A-18E/F, with the Royal Australian Air Force already signed on as the first export customer*. The RAAF has ordered 24 F/A-18E/Fs, including 12 provisioned to become EA-18G Growlers.

*The improved thrust would likely be most welcomed among militaries operating in hot weather(thar desert), which reduces engine performance especially at a takeoff. *

Despite the dramatic thrust increase, the EPE would not require enlarging the F/A-18E/F's engine inlets to enable increased air flow, Gower said. 

"We are not modifying the mould line of the aircraft," Gower said. "The current inlet gives us enough [air] in-take."

Gower also said the EPE would require changing the number of compressor stages, but he did not elaborate.

The USN is also planning to steadily improve the F/A-18E/Fs sensors, electronic warfare system, connectivity and weapons load-out over the next decade, Gower said.

"The US government and Boeing and our suppliers," said Gower, "continue to invest in the platform because we see opportunities both domestically and internationally for the platform."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if F-414 EPE is in competition with ej-200 then EPE will definitely a clear winner in terms of thrust....


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## Tejas-MkII

As i said if EPE offered to IAF for LCA then we should go for it...

I know with EJ-200 we can get TOT,TVC,etc,.. but that is not sure and TVC may be in development phase..

And we cann't afford any kind of delay for LCA...

Best Configuration for IAF,in context of LCA and MMRCA,will be get EPE and buy rafale with full TOT (engine-core,aesa,flir,EW) and put these in LCA....

And parallely develop kaveri with the Tech we get from rafale...

Now ,imagine if that possible,will be,then LCA MkII will have thrust of about 120KN(EPE),AESA radar(RBE2 AA),FLIR,EW(may be spectra)....
Let the time taken for this config.. 2015,even then it is worth to wait for MkII...


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## sudhir007

can any body tell what are the price of these engine (RD-33MK, EJ200 & GE-414) and about life cycle cost plus fight hours


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## sudhir007

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: LCA To Receive "HF" Designation Next Year

At this time next year, India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, is near certain to receive a long due HF ("Hindustan Fighter") designation just ahead of initial operational clearance (IOC), after which the ubiquitous "LCA" tag will be dropped and serve only as its type description. A senior Air Force officer told me recently that while designating the fighter was scarcely a priority at this juncture, a file was in motion containing possible HF designations based on various parameters. HAL has been periodically questioned about why the LCA doesn't already have an HF tag. Stands to reason, actually. HAL's under development intermediate jet trainer, Sitara, already has its final designation HJT-36 (Hindustan Jet Trainer), and HAL's yet-t0-begin development ab-initio trainer already has the designation HTT-40 (Hindustan Turbo Trainer). So it isn't really clear why the Tejas hasn't received its rightful lineage designation, after all, it is India's first fighter jet after the Marut of the sixties, which had its own venerable designation, HF-24.


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## duhastmish

ONLY IF THEY worry less abotu taking credit - and developing the jet and making it induction able in our defence.


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## marcos98

sudhir007 said:


> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: LCA To Receive "HF" Designation Next Year
> 
> At this time next year, India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, is near certain to receive a long due HF ("Hindustan Fighter") designation just ahead of initial operational clearance (IOC), after which the ubiquitous "LCA" tag will be dropped and serve only as its type description. A senior Air Force officer told me recently that while designating the fighter was scarcely a priority at this juncture, a file was in motion containing possible HF designations based on various parameters. HAL has been periodically questioned about why the LCA doesn't already have an HF tag. Stands to reason, actually. HAL's under development intermediate jet trainer, Sitara, already has its final designation HJT-36 (Hindustan Jet Trainer), and HAL's yet-t0-begin development ab-initio trainer already has the designation HTT-40 (Hindustan Turbo Trainer). So it isn't really clear why the Tejas hasn't received its rightful lineage designation, after all, it is India's first fighter jet after the Marut of the sixties, which had its own venerable designation, HF-24.



To avoid lot of hurdles & failures from past memory's HAL may selected HF, on my view HF71 seems to be good as per Numerology, also to remember 1971. WE need tejas mk2 version should be ready before the deadline. so HAL should not waste long time in the name of selecting engines . We wish IAF should have large numbers of sqn's in Tejus mark 2 version .


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## blackbriar

WebMaster said:


> Yet, your own air force dont want it. Far ahead of getting operational is probably correct in that context.
> 
> 
> 
> They hated the aircraft thats why they spent 48% of Research & Development.



that says more abt the strict quality standards of the airforce rather than the plane.the pakistani airforce is in a state where it is ready to take whatever junk is being given to it.jf-17..


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## Gabbar

*LCA no more???*

At this time next year, India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, is near certain to receive a long due HF ("Hindustan Fighter") designation just ahead of initial operational clearance (IOC), after which the ubiquitous "LCA" tag will be dropped and serve only as its type description. A senior Air Force officer told me recently that while designating the fighter was scarcely a priority at this juncture, a file was in motion containing possible HF designations based on various parameters. HAL has been periodically questioned about why the LCA doesn't already have an HF tag. Stands to reason, actually. HAL's under development intermediate jet trainer, Sitara, already has its final designation HJT-36 (Hindustan Jet Trainer), and HAL's yet-t0-begin development ab-initio trainer already has the designation HTT-40 (Hindustan Turbo Trainer). So it isn't really clear why the Tejas hasn't received its rightful lineage designation, after all, it is India's first fighter jet after the Marut of the sixties, which had its own venerable designation, HF-24.

So then, the HF-X Tejas, it shall be

courtesy: Livefirst


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## shchinese

good to see the arjun sticky has been removed. it is a good time to remove this LCA propaganda thread from the sticky list. 

 have a look at our L-15. can anyone tell me why LCA is better than this aircraft?


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## gogbot

shchinese said:


> good to see the arjun sticky has been removed. it is a good time to remove this LCA propaganda thread from the sticky list.
> 
> have a look at our L-15. can anyone tell me why LCA is better than this aircraft?



Have you ever considered a career in Chinese propaganda. If not you are wasting your skills doing anything else.

you should apply as soon as possible you no doubt fit in perfectly.

You are exactly the kind of person that would have made Chairman Mao proud.
Unquestionable, faith and belief with the CCP


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## shchinese

gogbot said:


> Have you ever considered a career in Chinese propaganda. If not you are wasting your skills doing anything else.
> 
> you should apply as soon as possible you no doubt fit in perfectly.
> 
> You are exactly the kind of person that would have made Chairman Mao proud.
> Unquestionable, faith and belief with the CCP



because I presented a twin engine trainer better than your joking LCA? 

face it, we have more interesting stuff to come in the next few years.


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## gogbot

shchinese said:


> because I presented a twin engine trainer better than your joking LCA?
> 
> face it, we have more interesting stuff to come in the next few years.


 Presenting a unwavering unspecific Argument,
Seriously you need to work for Chinese Propaganda, you already know most of the basics.

Don't worry about the LCA or should i say HF. IF it is as useless as you say you shouldn't have to give it a single thought.

Let the Indians discuss this aircraft in peace.


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## ironman

shchinese said:


> good to see the arjun sticky has been removed. it is a good time to remove this LCA propaganda thread from the sticky list.
> 
> have a look at our L-15. can anyone tell me why LCA is better than this aircraft?



Another Russian copy of Yak-130, shame on you shchinese to post this on LCA thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Gabbar

*@ Schinese
This thread is about LCA only. If you want to compare aircraft with one and another or you want to talk about L-15, please open a new thread. Dont pollute or derail this thread with other non-sense.*

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## rajeev

shchinese said:


> good to see the arjun sticky has been removed. it is a good time to remove this LCA propaganda thread from the sticky list.
> 
> have a look at our L-15. can anyone tell me why LCA is better than this aircraft?



you think it is better because it flies  or Do you any have specifications about L-15 that can be compared LCA specs?


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## wangrong

ironman said:


> Another Russian copy of Yak-130, shame on you shchinese to post this on LCA thread.



*Italy **M346*


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## wangrong




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## sudhir007

India To Look for Foreign Partner To Help Develop Naval LCA - Defense News

NEW DELHI - India has decided to look for global partners in developing the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as Lockheed Martin failed to get needed security clearances.

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has ordered six naval versions of the single-engine LCA, giving a boost to the homegrown program. The move is seen as a further commitment by the Navy to the LCA program, said a senior Navy official.
Lockheed Martin ran out of time in getting the necessary clearances from the U.S. government to enter into a contract with India on providing consulting services in the design and development of the naval version of the LCA, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official. The ministry has no choice but to look for partners in the Western world other than the United States, so that the LCA (naval) program does not suffer further delays, the ministry official added.

Lockheed executives based in India were unavailable for comment.

The Navy only last month ordered six naval-version LCAs and has committed about $30 million for each aircraft.

The naval version of the LCA is a small, lightweight, multirole supersonic fighter jet. It is under development and is required to operate from an aircraft carrier with a "ski-jump" takeoff ramp and arrested recovery system. The first naval prototype is being built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Bangalore, and is scheduled for integration tests and first flight toward the end of this year.

The naval LCA will be used on a domestically built aircraft carrier, the Air Defence Ship, which is due to enter service with the Navy in 2014.
India is looking for an overseas partner to help in optimizing the landing gear design and making associated changes in the aircraft's structural configuration to bring down the weight of the aircraft by at least 500 kilograms.
As the LCA would be operating from am aircraft carrier, the Defence Ministry will seek the help of an overseas vendor in determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on the deck of the ship, and aerodynamic fixes to improve the plane's takeoff and landing performance on the carrier, said a scientist with the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA.
The overseas partner also will advise Indian scientists on the need for an alternative engine with higher thrust. In addition, the foreign partner will advise the ADA on ways to test the arrestor hook system. 
The LCA (naval) version has been designed with structural and landing gear modifications to the existing Air Force version to handle larger loads and arrested recovery.
The need for a foreign partner arose during the course of the design and construction of the LCA (naval) version after it was observed that the weight of the naval version compared with the Air Force version is higher than originally planned and budgeted. With the General Electric (GE) F404 jet engine and the aircraft's mass, the performance of aircraft was found to be lower then anticipated.
The Indian Air Force's version of the LCA also is being powered by the GE 404, but the Air Force wants a higher-thrust engine, as there has been an increase in the weight of the aircraft due to increased demands by the user.


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## MZUBAIR

> India To Seek Partners For Naval LCA Development
> 
> By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
> 
> 
> India has decided to look for global partners in developing the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as* Lockheed Martin failed to get needed security clearances.*
> 
> Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has ordered six naval versions of the single-engine LCA, giving a boost to the homegrown program. The move is seen as a further commitment by the Navy to the LCA program, said a senior Navy official.
> 
> 
> *Lockheed Martin ran out of time in getting the necessary clearances from the U.S. government* to enter into a contract with India on providing consulting services in the design and development of the naval version of the LCA, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official. *The ministry has no choice but to look for partners in the Western world other than the United States, so that the LCA (naval) program does not suffer further delays, the ministry official added.*
> 
> Lockheed executives based in India were unavailable for comment.
> 
> 
> The Navy only last month ordered six naval-version LCAs and has committed about $30 million for each aircraft.
> 
> 
> The naval version of the LCA is a small, lightweight, multirole supersonic fighter jet. It is under development and is required to operate from an aircraft carrier with a "ski-jump" takeoff ramp and arrested recovery system. The first naval prototype is being built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Bangalore, and is scheduled for integration tests and first flight toward the end of this year.
> 
> 
> The naval LCA will be used on a domestically built aircraft carrier, the Air Defence Ship, which is due to enter service with the Navy in 2014.
> 
> 
> *India is looking for an overseas partner to help in optimizing the landing gear design and making associated changes in the aircraft's structural configuration to bring down the weight of the aircraft by at least 500 kilograms.*
> 
> 
> As the LCA would be operating from am aircraft carrier, the Defence Ministry will seek the help of an overseas vendor in determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on the deck of the ship, and aerodynamic fixes to improve the plane's takeoff and landing performance on the carrier, said a scientist with the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA.
> 
> 
> *The overseas partner also will advise Indian scientists on the need for an alternative engine with higher thrust.* In addition, the foreign partner will advise the ADA on ways to test the arrestor hook system.
> 
> 
> The LCA (naval) version has been designed with structural and landing gear modifications to the existing Air Force version to handle larger loads and arrested recovery.
> 
> 
> The need for a foreign partner arose during the course of the design and construction of the LCA (naval) version after it was observed that the weight of the naval version compared with the Air Force version is higher than originally planned and budgeted. With the General Electric (GE) F404 jet engine and the aircraft's mass, the performance of aircraft was found to be lower then anticipated.
> 
> 
> *The Indian Air Force's version of the LCA also is being powered by the GE 404, but the Air Force wants a higher-thrust engine, as there has been an increase in the weight of the aircraft due to increased demands by the user.*



New engine required, this will bring airframe modifications.

So once again old problems appeared.......

This will delay more and more...... 

I cant see LCA or MRCA in IAF b4 2015

Plz Note:- "The LCA programme was launched in 1983"


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## gogbot

MZUBAIR said:


> Plz Note:- "The LCA programme was launched in 1983"



iT WAS PROPOSED IN 1983

BUT GAINED CLEARANCE FROM GoI ONLY IN 1991.


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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> New engine required, this will bring airframe modifications.
> 
> So once again old problems appeared.......
> 
> This will delay more and more......
> 
> I cant see LCA or MRCA in IAF b4 2015
> 
> Plz Note:- "The LCA programme was launched in 1983"



Both engines being considered are of the same size and will essentially "plug the hole" with only minor modifications. The only difference will be a higher thrust. This has already been discussed earlier in this thread. LCA production has already started with the first 40 aircraft comin under block 1 with its current engine. The MRCA will be finalised by 2011 as tests are underway with 18 in a flyaway state immediately and local production starting in 2012. The IAF has therefore purchased 50 more SU30's to arrest declining numbers.


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## blueoval79

This is what Naval Version of Tejas LCA May Look like:




Source: http://www.india-defence.com/reports/4480

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## Saint N sinnerr

Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme

Indian Navy has okay-ed the placement of an order for six Naval Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (N-LCA). At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, this will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy's plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers.

The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.

But the LCA programme faces a bottleneck in choosing a new engine. Two uprated engines -- the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ-200 -- are currently being evaluated, but will be supplied only by 2013-14. And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.

P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency, which coordinates the LCA programme, explains: "We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier."

Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier. This will also be used for pilots training and for training maintenance crews.


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## MZUBAIR

gogbot said:


> iT WAS PROPOSED IN 1983
> 
> BUT GAINED CLEARANCE FROM GoI ONLY IN 1991.



still 18 years gone.....


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## Joodi

raveolution said:


> Both engines being considered are of the same size and will essentially "plug the hole" with only minor modifications.


.
No dear, its not that simple as u potray, integrating a new engine in an aircraft is a complex job. 



> LCA production has already started with the first 40 aircraft comin under block 1 with its current engine. The MRCA will be finalised by 2011 as tests are underway with 18 in a flyaway state immediately and local production starting in 2012. .



U mean, LCA will be ready for induction by 2012. Just a wishfull thinkng frankly speaking. We have been hearing such deadlines for LCA induction in IAf for the last 8 years. I can give half a dozen such claims from ADA and HAL regarding LCA induction date, dead line after dead line. no offence please. this is what, we are witnessing for last many years.

How can people at ADA can start LCA production in 2012. LCA has not yet passed the IOC. By most optimitic estimates, LCA will under process of IOC by IAf at the earliest from 2-3 years from now, after that IAf will submit their finding regarding any shortcomings and possible defects. ADA and HAl will then adress and do the necessary work to remove those short comings and problems, this will take time. Then comes the stages of FOC by IAF.Only after getting FOC, ADA will be able to start large scale production of LCA. It is too early to make such claim. If every thing goes smooth, it will be some think around 2015-16 when we may except that IAF will have a fully operational LCA squadron. 

In addition to the above mentioned points induction of a fully operational LCA sq in IAF faces delays due to following problems.

1- Local Multi mode radar program ended in failure, now Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. are working on new MMR. it is under development.
2- after completion of MMR, The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved.
2-Integration of a complete weapons suite needs to be resolved (just dummy missile trials as yet ). 
3- Complete Weaponization of LCA still pending, as MMR is not ready so intergartion of BVR and other missiles yet to take place.


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## marcos98

In its path towards Initial Operational Capability (IOC), a pair of LCA Tejas fighters -- Prototype Vehicle-3 (PV3) and Limited Series Production-2 (LSP-2) -- were recently deployed to Jamnagar for a period of five weeks for testing by the South Western Air Command (SWAC). The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various stores configurations, as well as air-to-ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery. According to a DRDO statement, "The aircraft has successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets which are designated visually by the pilot. After this phase, the Tejas will be able to take on targets whose parameters in terms of location and altitude are fed to the on-board navigation and attack computer. The target does not even have to be visible to the pilot at the point of delivery."

The flight trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), who deployed test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists for the task. This is the first time that the Tejas aircraft have operated away from home base for so long. The support provided by the personnel of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) the manufacturers of the aircraft, ensured that this indigenous fighter aircraft was able to take to the skies regularly. The Tejas team included specialist groups from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Central for Military Air Worthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) and DG-AQA.

The Indian Air Force teams working at ADA and the Air Force base where the trials were conducted have contributed significantly for the success of the trial. The excellent weather conditions prevailing in the Saurashtra sector and the enthusiastic support of the Indian Air Force ensured the successful completion of the current phase of flight trials. With this milestone achieved, the entire Tejas team is upbeat and the Tejas is one step closer to induction into the Indian Air Force.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: FIRST IMAGES: LCA Tejas Weapon Trials At Jamnagar

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## Born In The USA

LCA Tejas moves towards IOC with five-week weapons trial

New Delhi: India's ambitious programme to develop a sophisticated light-weight fighter aircraft moved ahead another step with the Indian Air Force conducting a five-week multi-disciplinary trial with two Tejas aircraft at its Jamnagar air base in Gujarat. The trials take the programme closer to achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC) - a task that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, is committed to achieve by the end of 2010.

"The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various stores configurations, as well as air-to-ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery," a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official said here today.

According to officials, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets designated visually by the pilot. With this phase behind it the LCA will now test its ability to let its on-board navigation and attack computers take on targets that are beyond visual range (BVR).

Defence sources said the five-week trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) which included test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists.

Officials also said that this, indeed, was the first time that the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has operated away from home base for so long.

The first squadron of the Mark-I LCA, with initial operational capability is scheduled to be inducted by the IAF by December 2010. In all the IAF is slated to induct around seven squadrons of the aircraft in its fleet. While the first two squadrons will be equipped with Mark-I, or IOC aircraft the remaining five squadrons will be the Mark-II version, an upgraded version of the aircraft that will match the likes of Saab Gripen JAS-39 in its capabilities.

The IOC configured squadrons will be equipped with the GE-404 engines while the remaining five squadrons will be equipped with either the GE-414 or the Eurojet 200 engines. DRDO is also in negotiations with various aircraft manufacturers to it in expanding the flight envelope of the aircraft.

domain-b.com : LCA Tejas moves towards IOC with five-week weapons trial

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## raveolution

Joodi said:


> .
> No dear, its not that simple as u potray, integrating a new engine in an aircraft is a complex job.
> 
> 
> 
> U mean, LCA will be ready for induction by 2012. Just a wishfull thinkng frankly speaking. We have been hearing such deadlines for LCA induction in IAf for the last 8 years. I can give half a dozen such claims from ADA and HAL regarding LCA induction date, dead line after dead line. no offence please. this is what, we are witnessing for last many years.
> 
> How can people at ADA can start LCA production in 2012. LCA has not yet passed the IOC. By most optimitic estimates, LCA will under process of IOC by IAf at the earliest from 2-3 years from now, after that IAf will submit their finding regarding any shortcomings and possible defects. ADA and HAl will then adress and do the necessary work to remove those short comings and problems, this will take time. Then comes the stages of FOC by IAF.Only after getting FOC, ADA will be able to start large scale production of LCA. It is too early to make such claim. If every thing goes smooth, it will be some think around 2015-16 when we may except that IAF will have a fully operational LCA squadron.
> 
> In addition to the above mentioned points induction of a fully operational LCA sq in IAF faces delays due to following problems.
> 
> 1- Local Multi mode radar program ended in failure, now Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. are working on new MMR. it is under development.
> 2- after completion of MMR, The integration issues of an imported radar to the aircraft needs to be resolved.
> 2-Integration of a complete weapons suite needs to be resolved (just dummy missile trials as yet ).
> 3- Complete Weaponization of LCA still pending, as MMR is not ready so intergartion of BVR and other missiles yet to take place.



U misread my post. It is the MRCA, not the LCA which will start production by end 2012, by the most conservative estimates. As far as the LCA program is concerned, you are right. It has been the victim of recurring delays. Lets wait and see. 

The radar for Blk 1 has been decided. They will use the Israeli EL/M-2052, 6 of which were ordered in 2006 for the prototypes. This will equip the first 40 aircraft.

The ADA awarded General Electric a US$105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines, delivery of which began in 2006.In Feb 2007, HAL ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The Blk 2 will use heavier engines (F414 or EJ200), which will entail structural modifications.

Nice post though.


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## blueoval79

*IAF Conducts Multi-Disciplinary Trial of LCA*

Moving closer to achieving Initial Operational Capability configuration for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by end of 2010, the Air Force conducted five-week multi-disciplinary trials of a pair of indigenous fighters at its Jamnagar air base.

"The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various stores configurations, as well as air-to-ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery," a DRDO official said here today.

The LCA successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets designated visually by the pilot, officials added.

After this phase, officials said that the LCA will be enabled by its on-board navigation and attack computers to take on targets, which are not visible to the pilot.

The five-week trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) including their test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists.

"This was the first time that the Tejas aircraft have operated away from home base for so long," officials said.

LCA is expected to be inducted into the IAF in initial operational capability (IOC) by December 2010. Last year, Defence Minister A K Antony had said that the IAF will induct around seven squadrons of the aircraft in its fleet.

Developing the aircraft since 1982, the DRDO is expected to hand over the first squadron of the LCA in the IOC configuration to the IAF by 2010-end.

A total of seven LCA squadrons will be inducted in the IAF. The first two squadrons will be in the IOC configuration whereas the rest five will be the LCA Mark II, which will be an upgraded version of the aircraft.

The first two squadrons will be equipped with the GE-404 engines and the remaining five will have either the GE-414 or the Eurojet 200 engines. DRDO is also in talks with various aircraft manufacturers to help it in expanding the flight envelope of the aircraft.

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667883

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## navtrek

IAF Conducts Multi-Disciplinary Trial of LCA, Jamnagar Airbase

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## Haanzo

^^^ you know that pilot to the right is a former su-30 top gun ..nice to see conducting those tests


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## marcos98

^^ yup.....
goes to quality of men flying tejas and professionalism of NTFC
heres a recap.......

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## Joodi

Munir said:


> I think indeed LCA is 100% Indian... [\QUOTE]
> 
> 100% Desi Maal, No man, i can list down about a dozen major components of LCA which are "Vellaitee".


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## sudhir007

Flight Test News

LCA-Tejas has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully. (21-Oct-09).
* LCA has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-224,PV2-128,PV3-173,LSP1-54,LSP2-99).
* 123rd & 124th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 20th Oct 09.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas completed the 1223 Test Flights. (14-Nov-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1221 Test Flights. (13-Nov-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1219 Test Flights. (12-Nov-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1219 Test Flights. (12-Nov-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1217 Test Flights. (31-Oct-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1217 Test Flights. (31-Oct-09) 
LCA-Tejas completed the 1216 Test Flights. (21-Oct-09) 

Flight Test News


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## Novice09

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas completed the 1223 Test Flights. (14-Nov-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1221 Test Flights. (13-Nov-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1219 Test Flights. (12-Nov-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1219 Test Flights. (12-Nov-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1217 Test Flights. (31-Oct-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1217 Test Flights. (31-Oct-09)
> LCA-Tejas completed the 1216 Test Flights. (21-Oct-09)
> 
> Flight Test News



Please stop giving such info. I feel  after reading such things. Since, Tejas is under trails number of test flights will increase by each passing day. Also, such numbers make an impression (on most of people) that we are unable to fix the issues swiftly.

*It's not a cricket match for which we need ball by ball details.*

If their is something really important only than it should be published. What the hell ADA is doing.


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## Trisonics

Novice09 said:


> Please stop giving such info. I feel  after reading such things. Since, Tejas is under trails number of test flights will increase by each passing day. Also, such numbers make an impression (on most of people) that we are unable to fix the issues swiftly.
> 
> *It's not a cricket match for which we need ball by ball details.*
> 
> If their is something really important only than it should be published. What the hell ADA is doing.


huh??? there is my money involved in it too why shouldn't I know if it flew today or not? How does it tell you issues are not being fixed? btw what issues are you talking about? Its called transparency, you should be glad that at least you know what is happening and what is not happening..appreciate it!!!


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## Bushy

marcos98 said:


> ^^ yup.....
> goes to quality of men flying tejas and professionalism of NTFC
> heres a recap.......




Marcos, are you sure that picture is of Tejas? It looks more like SUkhoi 30 to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## marcos98

Bushy said:


> Marcos, are you sure that picture is of Tejas? It looks more like SUkhoi 30 to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.


DUDE i posted this pic only to show the test pilot was a su30 top gun who now flys tejas..........
by the way that pic was taken when IAF team came back from red flag.....
got it...


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## Novice09

Trisonics said:


> huh??? there is my money involved in it too why shouldn't I know if it flew today or not? How does it tell you issues are not being fixed? btw what issues are you talking about? Its called transparency, you should be glad that at least you know what is happening and what is not happening..appreciate it!!!



@Trisonics

Just a note : your money (taxes paid by you) might be invested in infrastructure sector instead of defense 

Buddy I'm not saying that they should develop this jet under wraps of secrecy. But yes only major details should be published.

@ at least you know what is happening and what is not happening

So what do we know more than the number of *TEST* flights. Is it really important that today Tejas was in air for 1234th time.


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## Red Dwarf

Will this LCA do any good for India in the future other than patriotism ?.


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## Novice09

Red Dwarf said:


> Will this LCA do any good for India in the future other than patriotism ?.



Yes it would . Due to this jet we have our own jet engine GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri (under development), several other technologies have been developed for the same. 

For me the issue is, can we sustain and speed up the development process regarding the technologies we have developed. look what we have done with the knowledge gained from Marut.

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## unicorn148

Red Dwarf said:


> Will this LCA do any good for India in the future other than patriotism ?.



definitely because from future we not be depending other countries and the experience gained in it will help in MCA


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## k7x

IAF orders more Tejas LCAs to replace MiG-21s

IAF orders more Tejas LCAs to replace MiG-21s 

Ajai Shukla / Bangalore November 23, 2009, 0:45 IST 



The Indian Air Force is taking a crucial step towards accepting the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as a replacement for its ageing MiG-21 fighters. Senior air force officers told Business Standard that IAF was ordering a second Tejas squadron (20 aircraft), in addition to the 20 fighters already on order.




Ashok Nayak, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which will manufacture the Tejas, has confirmed this development. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender for 20 additional Tejas fighters is on track, he told Business Standard. After it is issued, we will sit down with MoD and negotiate a price.

The order for a second squadron is a vital expression of IAFs confidence in the future of the long-running Tejas programme. So far, IAF had insisted on evaluating the performance of the first squadron before ordering a second, by 2015-2016. That would allow the Tejas to be upgraded to the Tejas Mark II, which would have a new, more powerful engine. But now, with its fighter fleet dwindling, as the old MiG-21s are retired, IAF is taking the Tejas as it is.
WHY LAF URGENTLY NEEDS A SECOND SQUADRON 
* Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons, IAF is down to just 32 
* By 2015, another 6 squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives 
* HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. By 2015, IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters 
* The shortfall becomes more worrisome with the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for the North-East 


The Tejas, even with its current GE-404 engine, is a better fighter than the MiG-21, explained a senior IAF officer who is familiar with equipment policy. By 2015, the first Tejas squadron will be ready for IAF. HALs assembly line will be free; while the Tejas Mark II finishes testing, HAL can build a second squadron with the GE-404 engine, he added.

So far, the plan was to produce 12 twin-seater Tejas trainers after the first squadron was built. The new order will be for 18 single-seater and 2 twin-seater Tejas: exactly what equips a fighter squadron.

Heres why IAF urgently needs that second squadron: Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons (each squadron has 21 fighters), IAF is now down to just 32 squadrons. By 2015, another six squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives. Meanwhile, HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. The mathematics is clear: By 2015, IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters.

Making this shortfall even more worrisome is the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for north-east India, as a result of an increased threat assessment from China. Senior IAF officers have recently declared that India actually needs 45 squadrons.

In this context, IAF cannot wait to induct the Tejas as the next light fighter, a role that the MiG-21 has long performed. Medium fighters are as urgently needed, and IAF is currently evaluating six aircraft for this role. But the new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), even if the contract is placed expeditiously, is unlikely to enter service before 2015-16. Only in the heavy fighter segment is IAF well placed, with the superlative Sukhoi-30MKI steadily joining the fleet.

The Tejas is currently undergoing weapon trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by the end of 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join IAF by the end of 2016.

IAF has decided that No 45 Squadron, which operated MiG-21M fighters until they were recently retired, will be the first Tejas squadron. It will be based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It is still not clear where the second Tejas squadron will be based.


So it is now 21 + 12 + 20 for block 1 or Mark 1.

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## sancho

k7x said:


> So it is now *21* + 12 + 20 for block 1 or Mark 1.


You mean 20 right? 18 single + 2 twin seat. 

12 trainers means 6 more squads, so a total number of at least 160 LCAs (MK1 and MK2) should be clear so far. Good news!


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## marcos98

*Search for Tejas engine nears its end: decision likely before March 2010, price will determine winner
*
By Ajai Shukla
Bangalore
Business Standard, 24th Nov 09
*GE F-414*

*EJ200 *

For two years, the Aeronautical Development Agency --- the agency developing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- has searched for an engine to boost the performance of India&#8217;s homegrown fighter. With bids for two engines --- the General Electric F-414, and the Eurojet EJ200 --- submitted on 12th October, Business Standard has learned that ADA will select one before March 2010.

The GE F-404, one of fighter history&#8217;s iconic engines, currently powers the Tejas. But its 82-85 kilonewtons (KN) of thrust does not provide the acceleration or the sustained turning ability needed by the Tejas in air-to-air combat. ADA wants the Tejas to have 90-95 KN of thrust, which both the EJ200 and the GE F-414 provide. And so the F-404 will power only the first two Tejas squadrons; all subsequent LCAs, including the naval version, will fly with either the F-414 or the EJ200.

Dr Dipankar Banerjee, the DRDO&#8217;s Chief Controller of Aeronautics, says two crucial factors will determine the winner: which engine fits into the Tejas with minimal re-engineering; and which one works out cheaper (acquisition cost + operating cost).

The DRDO officer, who guides the Tejas programme, debunked the long-held belief that the Tejas would require major re-engineering for fitting the new engine. &#8220;We have evaluated both engines and we believe only minor changes will be needed in the fuselage of the Tejas&#8221;, said Dr Banerjee. &#8220;Which engine is selected will be largely determined by its cost.&#8221;

Both engines, however, need minor design modifications by their vendors to meet the specific requirements of the Tejas. According to Dr Banerjee, &#8220;The Eurofighter Typhoon is powered by two EJ200 engines, but the LCA has just a single engine. For safety reasons, it must have a re-ignition system to restart the engine automatically if it goes off in mid-flight.&#8221;

And since the selected engine will also power the naval Tejas, the EJ200 needs to be protected against the corrosive salt-water naval environment.

The EJ200&#8217;s rival, the GE F-414, has neither of these concerns; it already powers the single-engine Gripen fighter, as well as the F/A-18 Super Hornet, which the US Navy operates off aircraft carriers. But there are two other concerns over the F-414. Firstly, it needs to be tweaked to provide greater thrust during some periods of a flight, when it appears to deliver less power. And, since it is an American engine, export controls are potentially troublesome.

Eurojet, however, insists that re-ignite software is an integral part of the EJ200. Hartmut Tenter, Managing Director of Eurojet, explained to Business Standard, &#8220;If the EJ200 goes off in mid-flight, the aircraft decelerates sharply. The engine software recognizes that and automatically initiates the re-ignite procedure. It&#8217;s automatic; the pilot has to do nothing.&#8221;

Both Eurojet and General Electric consider this engine contract as vital. The order for 99 engines (plus options for another 49) is worth an estimated US $750 million. But, far more importantly, both see this contract as a way of getting a foot in the door for the US $11 billion Medium Fighter contract. Eurojet EJ200 engines power the Eurofighter Typhoon, while GE F-414s power both the F/A-18 and the Gripen NG. Getting a contract for the engine is seen as a giant first step towards getting a contract for the aircraft as well.

Fighter pilots say that a world-class engine makes a world-class fighter. Whenever two fighters face off in a dogfight, as pilots term an aerial duel, the one with the better engines almost always wins. In the old days, better engine power allowed a pilot to twist and turn sharply, to get behind the enemy, and then shoot him down with a burst of cannon fire.

Now, with missiles the primary air-to-air weapon, engine power is more important than ever. The enemy usually appears as a blip on the radar, which the pilot usually detects while &#8220;loitering&#8221; at low speeds to conserve fuel. He immediately guns his engine, accelerating hard towards the enemy, and launches his missile at nearly twice the speed of sound (Mach 2). As the missile screams towards the enemy fighter at around Mach 4, the pilot throws his fighter into a high-gravity U-turn to dodge the missile that his opponent would have launched by now. The pilot who can accelerate faster, launch first, and then turn away harder --- in other words, the pilot with the more powerful engine --- is usually the one who comes home alive.

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## sudhir007

*Which engine for Tejas MK-II?*

*Which engine for Tejas MK-II? IDRW.ORG*

While we may have an answer to that by March 2010, but it is still a mystery for many, which engine might be good for program, the requirements for the new engine rouse in 2005 when Indian air force wanted more powerful engines for Tejas since the current General Electric F404 is in 85 kn class (static thrust) and Indian air force wanted a 95 to 100kn thrust engines so that more multi-role missions can be conducted and Tejas had moved from a point defence fighter to a Multi-role fighter since air force was convinced and saw a growth potential in the aircraft ,Tejas Mk-II will not only have more powerful engines but also more powerful AESA radar and new mission avionics ,since Naval version of Tejas has been planned and will have the same engine which will go in the Tejas Mk-II .Indian Navy has been supportive of the Tejas project while Navy had a clear understanding and wanted Naval Variants to be based on Tejas MK-II since a Naval Tejas will require higher thrust engines to take off from an Aircraft carrier and had rejected to fly Naval prototype with current engines ,Two engines which are in the race to power almost 150 Tejas MK-II and Naval variant are General Electric&#8217;s F414 (98 kN) thrust class and Eurojet EJ200 (9o kN) thrust class

Eurojet EJ200: This engine currently powers the Eurofighter Typhoon which is a twin-engine canard-delta wing multirole aircraft which is also in the race to provide 126 jets for the Indian air force for the MMRCA Deal. Ej200 holds many advantages over its rival engine it will be widely produced in future since orders for more than 1400 engines have been placed to Eurojet for the Eurofighter and has growth potential and thrust vectoring versions are in pipeline for the Eurofighter, Ej200 is very advance and comes from new generation of engines which uses latest military grade combustor and compressor developed in late 90&#8217;s it incorporates best in technology has well as design since it was based on XG-40 technology demonstrator engine which was made by Rolls-Royce.but it also has some negative points to ,only Eurojet in paper have confirmed that the Tejas will require minimal changes in the airframe design but lack of spare Tejas aircrafts means that only after the contract is signed will be actually see if everything falls in place and any glitches thereafter will only delay already delayed Tejas project

General Electric&#8217;s F414: F414 engines have been evolved from F404 engines which currently powers Tejas, F414 currently powers F/A-18E/F Super Hornet which again is in the race for MMRCA. F414 was designed to fit in the same footprint as the F404. it also powers the Gripen NG which was earlier powered by a modified F404 engine , since 2006 new technology has been added to the engine to give higher trust and better performance, one of the most important plus point of this engines are that Developers of Tejas have worked with General Electric&#8217;s and has been recommended by Indian air force also , other key points are that since same engines are used by F/A-18E/F Super Hornet by US Navy it is protected against the corrosive salt-water naval environment which are the requirements of the Naval Tejass, it fits with minimal re-engineering since it is based on F404 engines and currently Ge and ADA have good relationship for years now


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## sudhir007

*Tejas PV-5 Trainer will make its first flight*

It has been reported by Ajay shukla in this blog that Tejas PV-5 twin seater trainer aircraft will make its first test flight today ,it will have Air Commodore Rohit Verma and Group Captain RR Tyagi in the cockpit . high speed trials of the aircrafts have been sucessfully completed and final test flight will be carried out today in Bangalore, the twin-seat Tejas trainer is expected to complete testing and certification by 2014 and start being delivered to the IAF by 2015.

*Tejas PV-5 Trainer will make its first flight IDRW.ORG*


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1226 Test Flights successfully. (22-Nov-09).

* LCA has completed 1226 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-227,PV2-128,PV3-177,LSP1-54,LSP2-102).
* 227nd flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 21st Nov 09.

(22-Nov-09)Tejas-LCA


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## marcos98

NEWS FLASH... PV-5 Tejas twin-seater makes a successful 30 minute flight!!
Broadsword: NEWS FLASH... PV-5 Tejas twin-seater makes a successful 30 minute flight!!
wait for details.......


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## Screaming Skull

*Success! Air Marshall Tyagi in the centre, alongside Dr Dipankar Banerjee (DRDO, Chief Controller Aerospace). Air Cmde Rohit Verma is next to Tyagi, while Gp Capt Tyagi is next to Dr Banerjee.*






*PV-5 takes off from the HAL airfield in Bangalore. The twin-seater has not yet been painted... the yellow is the colour of the composites from which most of the skin is made*​
*Photos: Courtesy DRDO*

This is the DRDO release, issued at 18:30 hours today:

*TEJAS TRAINER MAKES SUCCESSFUL MAIDEN FLIGHT*​
Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas (PV-5) made its maiden flight on 26 Nov 09. The flight took off from HAL,Airport at 1300 hrs. The successful maiden flight covered an altitude of 9km and Mach number 0.85. The prototype was flown by Gp Capt Ritu Raj Tyagi of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). Air Cmde Rohit Varma, Project Director (Flight Test) flew in the rear cockpit. Wg Cdr (Retd) PK Raveendran, Group Director (Flight Test) was the Test Director. Extensive preparatory work that has gone in resulted in the first flight profile being executed with clock work precision. All the objectives set out for the flight were achieved and all the systems on board the new prototype performed well through out the sortie.

Successful flight of Tejas trainer is a major milestone for Tejas programme and a significant achievement for all the stake holders in the programme, which include ADA, HAL, NAL, ADE, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. With the Tejas scheduled to be cleared for Initial Operations with the Indian Air Force by end 2010, successful maiden flight of Tejas trainer has given a fillip to the programme. The trainer when fully developed will have the full operational capability from the rear cockpit as well. As Tejas Trainer has a lot of commonality with Tejas Naval version, even Tejas Navy programme would see accelerated progress as a result of the successful first flight.
As the first flight coincided with the programme review by the Air Force, the historic event was witnessed by Air Mshl NV Tyagi, AVSM, VM, VSM, who was the Chairman of the Review Committee along with Mr Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL, Chief Controller, DRDO Dr D Banerjee and Mr PS Subramanyam, Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) & Director, ADA.

*Courtesy:* *Ajai Shukla-BROADSWORD*

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## gogbot

gogbot said:


> iT WAS PROPOSED IN 1983
> 
> BUT GAINED CLEARANCE FROM GoI ONLY IN 1991.





MZUBAIR said:


> still 18 years gone.....



The J-10 took 18 years as well. And China was much more experienced in aircraft manufacturing

The Rafael took 15 Years.

it takes over a decade to design and develop planes. on average its 12 years.

I don't believe the LCA has done to badly considering.


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## sancho

Hey can anyone tell me what techs and weapons are ready, or cleared for LCA so far and what is missing? For example, what is the status of MMR? What about Mayavi EWS, any specs, or capabilities known? Is there an IRST in development, or will it come through MMRCA and only for MK2 versions?
On the weapon side, R73 and some bombs are tested (although unguided), but what else will LCA get? R77, or Astra BVR missile? Helenia of course, but which anti ship, anti radiation, air to surface missile? What foreign and non Russian weapons are likely?
I read somewhere that Iris-T WVR missile is on offer, which would be a better choice than the old R73, or how about Python 5?


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## Hulk

Good news for India that it is moving fast on LCA development now. How much time we took is least important. How you were in past hardly matters, what matters is present.


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## Chanakyaa

Double Post.


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## Chanakyaa

If see it carefully, late or early its something that even Our Biggest Arms supplier.. Israel could NOT do.
How may countries make Fighter Jets.. Independent.. ?
4 or 5 Thats all. 
Indian effort despite of delays is good as it makes us self reliant, boosts our avitation industry and aerospace research and gives employment opportunities in bulk.

Its it a thing of proud that we are amongst a few others who can do this.. since we started from the recent 1947.. 
all alone .. 
we didnt had food at that time .. but the same indian energy can now design a gen 4/5 plane.
isnt it awesome !


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## Novice09

XiNiX said:


> If see it carefully, late or early its something that even Our Biggest Arms supplier.. Israel could NOT do.
> How may countries make Fighter Jets.. Independent.. ?
> 4 or 5 Thats all.
> Indian effort despite of delays is good as it makes us self reliant, boosts our avitation industry and aerospace research and gives employment opportunities in bulk.
> 
> Its it a thing of proud that we are amongst a few others who can do this.. since we started from the recent 1947..
> all alone ..
> we didnt had food at that time .. but the same indian energy can now design a gen 4/5 plane.
> isnt it awesome !



without any obsession:

We are still dependent on others for Tejas and other defense needs. But Yes, it is a great leap to be self-reliant in defense sector.

I think that we have achieved self-reliance (in defense sector) in field of Missile Tech.


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## Hulk

Novice09 said:


> without any obsession:
> 
> We are still dependent on others for Tejas and other defense needs. But Yes, it is a great leap to be self-reliant in defense sector.
> 
> I think that we have achieved self-reliance (in defense sector) in field of Missile Tech.



I think we are moving up the ladder. The progress for any new comer is slow initially. I think LCA is going good now.


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## Novice09

Tejas Trainer


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## Chanakyaa

Novice09 said:


> without any obsession:
> 
> We are still dependent on others for Tejas and other defense needs. But Yes, it is a great leap to be self-reliant in defense sector.
> 
> I think that we have achieved self-reliance (in defense sector) in field of Missile Tech.



Thanks for a honest openion.

Now, You see Fighter Jets are NOT easy to make. Even Mighty China is having RD-33 from Russia and Pakistan is considering Western Avionics on Jf17 in future. The Airframe is definately inferior to Tejas.

Take the Case of Swedish, Gripen It also employs US' Engines.

So you see, if China/Sweden despite of all Great Tech and Economy cannot make a 100% indegenious Jet.

I see NO Harm that you take some ready made Parts while still pursuing an independent path like that of Radar Development, Kaveri etc. They may NOT be up to the mark at present but we are walking.. soon we'll learn to run .


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## beckham

Tejas's trainer version makes successful maiden flight


2009-11-26 20:10:00

The maiden flight of the two-seater trainer version of the indigenous light combat aircraft 'Tejas' Thursday was successful, officials said.

The flight took off at 1 p.m. from the airport of Hindustan Aeronautical Ltd at Bangalore.

'It is a two-seater version of the LCA and can be used as trainer.* The successful maiden flight covered an altitude of 9 km and a speed of 0.85 Mach,' said a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official.*

The prototype was flown by Group Captain Ritu Raj Tyagi of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). Air Commodore Rohit Varma, project director (Flight Test), was in the rear seat.

'Extensive preparatory work that has gone in resulted in the first flight profile being executed with clock work precision. All the objectives set out for the flight were achieved and all the systems on board the new prototype performed well throughout the sortie,' said the official.

With the entire fleet of the Indian Air Force's basic HPT-32 trainer aircraft grounded following successive engine failures, the maiden flight of LCA's trainer version will give fillip to the search for a replacement of the aircraft.

'The trainer, when fully developed, will have the full operational capability from the rear cockpit as well. *As Tejas trainer has a lot of commonality with Tejas Naval version, even Tejas Navy programme would see accelerated progress as a result of the successful first flight,' the official added.*

*The first eight Tejas aircraft are to be delivered to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy between 2010 and 2012 and will be fitted with the IN20 engines from the US-based General Electric.*

*LINK*

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## gogbot

Beckham whats up with the picture it cant be the Tejas can it


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## Hulk

I am happy with whatever has been achieved from LCA. The most important thing I feel is that recently the government has started focusing on defence. I am sure next decade will move us ahead in these technology.


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## beckham

gogbot said:


> Beckham whats up with the picture it cant be the Tejas can it



Ops.. Thnx ! I will remove it right away


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## beckham

Moment of history: Tejas twin-seat trainer makes its first flight


Bangalore: On Thursday morning the first prototype twin-seater, trainer version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) taxied out to the runway in Bangalore.






With its design team watching tensely from the sidelines, the two test pilots revved up the engine, raced down the runway and, in a moment of history, lifted the twin-seat Tejas into the sky for its first ever flight. The 30 minute flight, Business Standard has learned, was an unqualified success.

In the cockpit were two of the IAF's most skilled test pilots, now a part of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), which handles all Tejas test flying. Air Commodore Rohit Verma, a MiG-21 ace was the commander; his co-pilot was Group Captain RR Tyagi, a veteran Jaguar pilot.

Over the last few days the first twin-seat Tejas, called Prototype Version 5 (PV-5) has been carrying "high-speed taxi trials". In these, the Tejas PV-5 has been speeding down the runway at speeds of over 200 kilometre/hour, applying the brakes just short of take-off speed.

But, today the pilot did not brake; keeping the throttle pressed he pulled back the joystick and the Tejas lifted off the runway into the sky.

The first flight of the twin-seat Tejas was a crucial landmark in the LCA programme. With the first squadron of the single-engine, single-seat Tejas already ordered by the IAF, and the order for the second squadron being processed, twin-seat trainers are urgently needed for training the IAF pilots who will man these two squadrons.

Every IAF squadron is authorised 18 single-seat fighters and 2 twin-seat trainers.
The twin-seat Tejas is also important for the Indian Navy. The naval version of the Tejas, which will operate off aircraft carriers, will be based on the Tejas trainer; it's higher cockpit allows the pilot a view of the carrier landing deck while descending steeply to land. In the naval Tejas there is no second cockpit; its place is taken by an extra fuel tank and some avionics.






Single-seat Tejas prototypes have completed about 1200 test flights, but the first flight of the twin-seat trainer is almost like testing a new aircraft.

Though the trainer's engine and fuselage is the same as the single-seater's, internal systems have been extensively re-engineered to create space for a second cockpit, complete with a second set of controls, for the trainee pilot.

Flight-testing will determine whether this new configuration works perfectly.
The twin-seat Tejas' first flight comes almost 6 months later than originally planned, because the agency developing the Tejas -- the Aeronautical Development Agency -- wanted to minimise the chances of a failed test.

The ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, told Business Standard in Bangalore in August that caution in flight-testing was one of the drawbacks in the Tejas programme, but was understandable given that India was testing and certifying a modern fighter for the first time.

European aerospace consortium, EADS, which has been appointed consultant for the air force Tejas programme, is expected to advise on how to cut down on flight-testing without compromising safety. Reducing flight-testing by a year, believes Subramaniam, would save Rs 1000 crores in costs and bring the Tejas into operational service early.

In the absence of major hiccups, the twin-seat Tejas trainer is expected to complete testing and certification by 2014 and start being delivered to the IAF by 2015.

LINK

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## Tejas-MkII

*Tejas to fly on indigenous Kaveri engine next year: Official*

The city-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which is indigenously developing various types of aero engines, *would be fitting its flagship product Kaveri engine to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas' in the next one year.*

Disclosing this to reporters at the 23rd convention of aerospace engineers here GTRE Director T Mohana Rao said the establishment had overcome all obstacles and one of the engines, originally built for the LCA was taken to Russia for testing. Once it passes the test another engine would be shipped later for flying test, he said.

*He said the engine would be ready by March or April next year and it will be fully ready for integration in one year's time*. ''We are also looking to develop a marine version of Kaveri engine and Indian Navy would be our working partners. This includes financial participation. Indian Navy is working with us for Kaveri marine project,'' he said.

The naval version would be co-designed by the two organisations and it would have low-pressure compressor and turbine.

GTRE was also looking at developing small gas turbine engines for unmanned aircraft.

*''We are ready to develop any type of gas turbine engines for the country. There are lots of other projects in the offing,*'' Mr Rao added.

He said GTRE's bid to find a joint venture partner was yet to be finalised as it was expecting the final sanction from the government. *''We had shortlisted 'Snecma' of France for the JV, but we have not started the work yet as some government approvals are still pending. Indian Air Force and DRDO would have to approve the JV,''* he said.

Mangalorean.Com- Serving Mangaloreans Around The World!


----------



## purepak143

Sallam to all members !

Dear i gotta ask you guys for something that i really need.
I've been called for my interview for the post of sub inspector ministry of defense. How to give the interviewers a satisfactory pause ?
I need your suggestions that may help me come up successful in my interview.......................
If any of you or your friends has ever had certain interview do share it with me.........
awaiting your urgent reply
Purepak


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## Hulk

purepak143 said:


> Sallam to all members !
> 
> Dear i gotta ask you guys for something that i really need.
> I've been called for my interview for the post of sub inspector ministry of defense. How to give the interviewers a satisfactory pause ?
> I need your suggestions that may help me come up successful in my interview.......................
> If any of you or your friends has ever had certain interview do share it with me.........
> awaiting your urgent reply
> Purepak



And why did you choose this forum for your question?


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## yashraj

Hello friends,
I am new here. any one please tell me about few things....
1)Which Radar will LCA carry.
2)How much Weapon load it can carry.
3)When and How Much LCA is going to inducted?

Thanks.


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## SU-57E

dude you should go through some of past posts........
however as much induction is concerned this may be in 2011 i think....may be wrong.....


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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> Hello friends,
> I am new here. any one please tell me about few things....
> 1)Which Radar will LCA carry.
> 2)How much Weapon load it can carry.
> 3)When and How Much LCA is going to inducted?
> 
> Thanks.



1. MMR + EL 2032 for MK-1 & MK-II EL-2052 AESA 
2. 4000 kg with 3000 Internal fuel capacity.
3. Ioc clear 2010-2011 Ist 40 MK-1 & then2013-2014 Foc from the latest new 100+40 to be built mk-II standard

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SU-57E

is there any chance of MK-3 or we will move on to MCA.... what you think..... because mca will be relatively costlier hence number should be less....


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## sudhir007

s.raptorski said:


> is there any chance of MK-3 or we will move on to MCA.... what you think..... because mca will be relatively costlier hence number should be less....


Ist let them finish mk-1 and then mk-II there is no plan or any discussion ryt now about mk-3 maybe india goes for mk-3 with feature like f-35


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## inferno

Well ithink Mk-3 might come with some advancements in then currently operated aircrafts.....


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## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> 1. MMR + EL 2032 for MK-1 & MK-II EL-2052 AESA
> 2. 4000 kg with 3000 Internal fuel capacity.
> 3. Ioc clear 2010-2011 Ist 40 MK-1 & then2013-2014 Foc from the latest new 100+40 to be built mk-II standard



Thanks Sudhir


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## Chanakyaa



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## Chanakyaa

I have added some pics of LCA Here : http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/40297-best-ever-lca-tejas-pics-collection.html#post566126


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## sudhir007

Aviation News by AviTrader

Volvo Aero in cooperation with DRDO/GTRE

Volvo Aero Corporation announced a cooperation with the Indian Ministry of Defence for the development of various Aero Engine Programs. Volvo Aero Corporation of Trollh&#228;ttan, Sweden, has since 75 years developed, manufactured, and maintained different versions of aircraft engines for the Swedish Air Force, including the RM12 engine powering Sweden&#180;s fourth generation multi-role fighter aircraft Gripen.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Aviation News by AviTrader
> 
> Volvo Aero in cooperation with DRDO/GTRE
> 
> Volvo Aero Corporation announced a cooperation with the Indian Ministry of Defence for the development of various Aero Engine Programs. Volvo Aero Corporation of Trollhättan, Sweden, has since 75 years developed, manufactured, and maintained different versions of aircraft engines for the Swedish Air Force, including the RM12 engine powering Sweden´s fourth generation multi-role fighter aircraft Gripen.


Kind of interesting news, why a coop with Volvo? They might have experience sure, but has no own engine at the moment in their fighters.


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## RPK

PIB Press Release

*Indigenous technology for Tejas Aircraft *

The engine used in Tejas Aircraft is imported from USA, whereas 70&#37; of avionic systems integrated on Tejas is indigenous and 30% has been imported from Israel, France, Italy, United Kingdom and USA. Parallel efforts are being made for indigenizing remaining 30% of the avionic systems. 

Only few countries in the world are currently capable of design and development of engines for aircraft and tank. These are exceptionally complex technologies and involve many disciplines and vast industrial base and capabilities. Hence development of these technologies take longer time. 

Indigenous Kaveri engine development program for the Tejas aircraft is already under progress. To cater to the additional thrust requirement within the same engine envelope, co-development with an established and reputed international engine house is being contemplated.


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## sudhir007

IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but.. - dnaindia.com

*IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..*

Bangalore: The geopolitical factor that determined state-owned Air India's choice of commercial aircraft in the mid-2000 may come into play again in the Indian government's selection of engines for its indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

In 2005, when the national carrier's order for 50 aircraft worth $6 billion went to US aerospace company Boeing, its French rival Airbus Industrie had said it was the "geopolitical factor" that had clinched the deal.

DNA Money has learned that Indian Air Force (IAF), which is the user of LCA Tejas, has in its recommendations to the Ministry of Defence favoured the purchase of European aerospace company Eurojet's EJ200 over US aerospace firm General Electric's F-414. These are the only two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines.
An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power. The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines.

"The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower than F-414 (95+ kilonewton), but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.

The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."

He, however, said the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said.

But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation.

A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company.

He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."

The two major aircraft and engine manufacturers are aggressively lobbying for the engine deal because its outcome will have a bearing on India's order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) worth over $10 billion.

"The government is likely to go for aircraft, which is powered by the same engine as Tejas. One argument is that if these fighter jets come in time, then any delay in the Tejas programme will have less significance on the IAF," said the analyst.


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## sudhir007



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## gogbot

sudhir007 said:


> IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but.. - dnaindia.com
> 
> *IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..*
> 
> Bangalore: The geopolitical factor that determined state-owned Air India's choice of commercial aircraft in the mid-2000 may come into play again in the Indian government's selection of engines for its indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.
> 
> In 2005, when the national carrier's order for 50 aircraft worth $6 billion went to US aerospace company Boeing, its French rival Airbus Industrie had said it was the "geopolitical factor" that had clinched the deal.
> 
> DNA Money has learned that Indian Air Force (IAF), which is the user of LCA Tejas, has in its recommendations to the Ministry of Defence favoured the purchase of European aerospace company Eurojet's EJ200 over US aerospace firm General Electric's F-414. These are the only two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines.
> An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power. The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines.
> 
> "The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower than F-414 (95+ kilonewton), but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.
> 
> The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."
> 
> He, however, said the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said.
> 
> But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation.
> 
> A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company.
> 
> He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."
> 
> The two major aircraft and engine manufacturers are aggressively lobbying for the engine deal because its outcome will have a bearing on India's order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) worth over $10 billion.
> 
> "The government is likely to go for aircraft, which is powered by the same engine as Tejas. One argument is that if these fighter jets come in time, then any delay in the Tejas programme will have less significance on the IAF," said the analyst.



well sadly, this is the end of all hope for Rafael.

Given at this rate, we might get a MMRCA winner soon.


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## amunhotep

Bangalore: The geopolitical factor that determined state-owned Air India's choice of commercial aircraft in the mid-2000 may come into play again in the Indian government's selection of engines for its indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas. 





In 2005, when the national carrier's order for 50 aircraft worth $6 billion went to US aerospace company Boeing, its French rival Airbus Industrie had said it was the "geopolitical factor" that had clinched the deal. 



DNA Money has learned that Indian Air Force (IAF), which is the user of LCA Tejas, has in its recommendations to the Ministry of Defence favoured the purchase of European aerospace company Eurojet's EJ200 over US aerospace firm General Electric's F-414. These are the only two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines. An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power. The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines. 



"The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower than F-414 (95+ kilonewton), but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.



The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."



He, however, said the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said. 



But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation. 



A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company. 



He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."



The two major aircraft and engine manufacturers are aggressively lobbying for the engine deal because its outcome will have a bearing on India's order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) worth over $10 billion. 



"The government is likely to go for aircraft, which is powered by the same engine as Tejas. One argument is that if these fighter jets come in time, then any delay in the Tejas programme will have less significance on the IAF," said the analyst.

here is the link


ASIAN DEFENCE: IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..


----------



## gubbi

amunhotep said:


> Bangalore:
> 
> An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said *IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power.* The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines.
> 
> "*The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower* than *F-414 (95+ kilonewton)*, but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.
> 
> The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."
> 
> He, however, said *the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine*. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said.
> 
> But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation.
> 
> He said *the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA.* "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is *that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200* because Americans are pushing hard for it."
> 
> 
> here is the link
> 
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..



First of all the Title of the thread is misleading!

Secondly, a 10+kN thrust is of tremendous advantage in a combat aircraft. Therefore, nothing wrong with the selection.

The author says that the F-414 engine is "fatter" requiring considerable redesigning of the Tejas' 'interior'. BS!!! The tejas already uses the GE F-404 engine for now and the F414 is just a modified version of it.

here are the specs for these engines:



> Specifications (F414-400)
> General characteristics
> 
> * Type: Afterburning turbofan
> * Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
> * *Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)*
> * Dry weight:
> 
> Components
> * Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
> * Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage
> 
> Performance
> * *Maximum Thrust: 22,000 lbf (98 kN)*
> * *Overall pressure ratio: 30:1*
> * Power-to-weight ratio:





> Specification (F404-GE-402)
> General characteristics
> 
> * Type: Afterburning turbofan
> * Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
> ** Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)*
> * Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)
> 
> Components
> 
> * Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
> * Bypass ratio: 0.34:1
> * Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage
> 
> Performance
> 
> * Maximum Thrust:
> o 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
> o 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
> * Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
> * Specific fuel consumption:
> o *Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf&#183;h) (82.6 kg/(kN&#183;h))
> o Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf&#183;h) (177.5 kg/(kN&#183;h))*
> * Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)





> General characteristics
> 
> * Type: Turbofan
> * Length: 157 inches (4.0 m)
> * Diameter: 29 inches (0.737 m)
> * Dry weight: 2,180 lbs (989 kg)
> 
> Components
> 
> * Compressor: 3-stage LP, 5-stage HP
> * Turbine: 1-stage LP, 1-stage HP
> 
> Performance
> 
> * Maximum Thrust: 13,500 lbf (60 kN) dry thrust / 20,000 lbf (90 kN) with reheat
> * Bypass ratio: 0.4:1
> * Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
> * Specific fuel consumption: 21-23 g/kNs dry thrust / 47-49 g/kNs with reheat
> * Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9.175:1




The EJ2000 is apparently 6in smaller in diameter. However both the GE engines are 35in in diameter. Pray then how is the F-414 "fatter" than the F-404 which presently powers Tejas?

Its BS that the IAF is heavily recommending the EJ engine! The author also quotes a person as saying that the EJ costs more, is underpowered compared to the GE engines and requires redesigning of the internal fuselage. And inspite of this, yet says that the GE engine is being thrust upon the IAF which apparently wants the lesser EJ engine?

Geez, do a little research about the topic before you decide to post new threads!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## pmukherjee

gubbi said:


> First of all the Title of the thread is misleading!



Agree with you totally. The original article was published by Parveen Sharma in BR on 05 Dec and in Asian Def on 06 Dec. Would be enlightening to get _*his *_clarifications on this article.


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> well sadly, this is the end of all hope for Rafael.
> 
> Given at this rate, we might get a MMRCA winner soon.


Why? There is no French engine on offer for LCA, so that can't have an effect on Rafale at MMRCA. 
Also I have some doubts about how reliable the article is, because there were enough false articles before refering on:



> An IAF official, who did not want to be named



or:



> A defence analyst, who did not want to be named,


 
Also EJ 200 that powers EF has 90kN, not 85, GE 414 that powers F18SH has 98kN, not 95. LCA don't need a redesign because GE414 is


> a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter


, but because the engine needs a bigger air intake similar to the changes from F18 Hornet to Super Hornet. As far as I know, the diameter of the 414, is the same as the diameter of the 404 actually in use in the LCA MK1. 

However, if we compare both offers just with the best for LCA in mind, there can't be any other choice than the EJ 200! Around 95kN thrust, less weight and TVC, in combination with Astra missile, AESA radar, low RCS and delta wings could make LCA MK2 to a first class interceptor!
With these benefits and more ToT that is on offer, it clearly also pays back the higher costs!


----------



## sudhir007

> The EJ2000 is apparently 6in smaller in diameter. However both the GE engines are 35in in diameter. Pray then how is the F-414 "fatter" than the F-404 which presently powers Tejas?
> 
> Its BS that the IAF is heavily recommending the EJ engine! The author also quotes a person as saying that the EJ costs more, is underpowered compared to the GE engines and requires redesigning of the internal fuselage. And inspite of this, yet says that the GE engine is being thrust upon the IAF which apparently wants the lesser EJ engine?
> 
> Geez, do a little research about the topic before you decide to post new threads!



Adding one more think that Navy also want navlaise version but ej200 is not tested in sea environment or you can say salty water condition if we want we need to bear on ourself and give some money and for this it will talk time consuming mean more delay more costlier. but ge414 already tested ...


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Adding one more think that Navy also want navlaise version but ej200 is not tested in sea environment or you can say salty water condition if we want we need to bear on ourself and give some money and for this it will talk time consuming mean more delay more costlier. but ge414 already tested ...


Please keep in mind that only *6* N-LCAs are ordered so far and who knows if they will go in production anyway (latest reports hints something else). However, it should be clear that we can't take 100 inferior engines (GE 414) for IAF, only to get maybe a dozen for N-LCA.
As I said in th LCA thread, if we compare both offers just with the best for LCA in mind, there can't be any other choice than the EJ 200! Around 95kN thrust, less weight and TVC, in combination with Astra missile, AESA radar, low RCS and delta wings could make LCA MK2 to a first class interceptor!
With these benefits and more ToT that is on offer, it clearly also pays back the higher costs!


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## Red Dwarf

If the design of the aircraft needed to be changed according to the engines, will this derail the induction of LCA with Kaveri; since the new design also needed to be tested.


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## Screaming Skull

*Fighter aircraft Tejas clocks fastest speed during testing​*
Dec 08, 2009

INS Hansa (Goa) In the final phase of its tests before formal commissioning, India&#8217;s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.

*&#8220;The aircraft went past its ultimate speed of 1350 kmph on December 7 over the skies in Goa after take off from the naval air station INS Hansa,&#8221; Commander Rohit Varma, project director (flight test), National flight test centre, told reporters here.

&#8220;This is the fastest speed ever achieved by an Indian- made fighter aircraft,&#8221;* he said.

*The aircraft also passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet.

&#8220;Tejas has already passed high-altitude tests in Leh, the desert rigours in Rajasthan and now it has proved its worth over the maritime space in Goa,&#8221;* Varma said.

The IAF has already ordered 20 LCAs from HAL at a contract worth Rs 2701.70 crore. The fighters are to be delivered by 2013.

The LCA, a project of aeronautical development agency (ADA) is the first supersonic fighter craft manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The aircraft will have naval and Indian air force version, of which the latter is undergoing testing at Goa naval base.

&#8220;It can fly from a base and also from an aircraft carrier,&#8221; P S Subramanyam, Programme Director (Combat aircraft) and director, ADA, said.

The officials confirmed that the naval version of the aircraft would be attached to aircraft carrier Gorshkov once the aircraft is inducted for operations.

Subramanyam said the LCA-naval will have capability to take off from ski jump platform of aircraft carriers. *&#8220;The development of the naval version is progressing very fast.

There are few glitches but we will overcome them.&#8221;* The IAF is likely to base the lightweight multi-role jet fighters at Sulur in Coimbatore. &#8220;They are earmarked for squadron no 45, which will be the first LCA squadron,&#8221; Varma said.

The HAL has manufactured four aircraft which are being put under rigorous testing by fighter pilots.

Varma said a team led by Captain Jaydeep Malawankar was testing the aircraft before their induction into the defence force.

Air vice Marshal Shankar Mani told reporters that the first consignment of four aircraft would be delivered by January 2011, followed by eight aircraft in 2012 and another eight in 2013. 

Fighter aircraft Tejas clocks fastest speed during testing - Express India

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## Hulk

I am beginning to feel proud of LCA, the continuous success makes me believe that we have gone past the stage where there can be any doubt of its success. I am sure we will meet the next deadline set.

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## Bullhead

Excellent news......


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## Tejas-MkII

hey skull 

do u have any idea which AC is this,i mean it is PV5 or LSP3 or is it same old  LSP 2


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## sarthak

what ? are you seriously kidding me? This is the fastest speed it has achieved? Sukhoi mki itself has a top speed of 2.3 mach ( around 2800km/h.)

A real disgrace if this information is true. Nothing to feel proud of at all.


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## sarthak

it is definetely is an error. Could be 1350 miles per hour. 1350 km/h too slow


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## greatsequence

Is this the best lca can do. I think its doomed.


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## Tejas-MkII

I think there is some problem in the unit ....

we already know LSP1-2 reach mach1.1 in their first flight...

which is about 378 m/s or 1360Km/hr...

So,its definitely not 1350km/h,either number is wrong or unit is wrong....

Any way if we take this as a m/h then it become ..2172.6144 km/h 

It means:Mach 1.7 

Man i am getting goose bum now...


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## Screaming Skull

sarthak said:


> what ? are you seriously kidding me? This is the fastest speed it has achieved? Sukhoi mki itself has a top speed of 2.3 mach ( around 2800km/h.)
> 
> A real disgrace if this information is true. Nothing to feel proud of at all.



The speed of any aircraft is a function of the altitude at which it is flying. The top speed of MKI which you cite is the speed it can achieve at very high altitudes of greater than 2400 km where the density of the air is very low. At such altitudes the drag experienced by an aircraft is on the lower side. Similarly, the LCA Tejas too is expected to have a top speed of about Mach 2 at such altitudes. This news report does not mention at what altitude this speed was achieved. It also does not mention if the aircraft engaged afterburners to achieve such a speed. If afterburners werent engaged then this is a highly commendable achievement. The report merely mentions that the LCA has achieved its highest speed so far in all the tests conducted. The IOC date is set for end of 2010, by which time the LCA will achieve its highest design speed at high altitudes.

So, my dear friend why do you conclude something the report does not suggest?


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## Tejas-MkII

So is it LSP2 or LSP3 or new PV-5

And yes if it is at sea level then Mach1.1 is certainly not bad...

But no altitude is mention there not even which aircraft it is,such a crap reporting..


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## Screaming Skull

Tejas-MkII said:


> hey skull
> 
> do u have any idea which AC is this,i mean it is PV5 or LSP3 or is it same old  LSP 2



It certainly wasn't the PV5. It could have been PV1, PV3 or LSP2. Those were the only three that flew on Dec-7.

(08-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA

Also, notice that the frequency of test flights has increased dramatically in the past few days.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*People - we have an LCA sticky (and the other sticky's) for a reason.*


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## Tejas-MkII

Indian-made fighter plane Tejas clocks fastest speed .:. newkerala.com Online News -6923

*Indian-made fighter plane Tejas clocks fastest speed*

Panaji, Dec 8 : *Light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas notched a speed of over 1,350 km per hour -- the fastest by an indigenously-made fighter aircraft -- during its sea level flight trials off Goa Tuesday, a senior Indian Air Force official said.*



*Tejas which is undergoing rigorous testing in saline, humid marine conditions in and off the coast of Goa, had performed admirably in the two-week long trials in Goa, Air Commodore Rohit Varma who is also the commanding officer of the Bangalore-based National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) told reporters at the INS Hansa naval base Tuesday. *

*"The trials which lasted for two weeks comprised of flutter clearances, weapons firing, performance, stability and avionics validation. The LCA is the first supersonic fighter being manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)," *Varma, an elite pilot himself, said. 

As part of the initial operational clearance, the Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA) had inducted three aircraft to Goa for conducting various sea-level flight tests, he said. 

Varma also said that the LCA had already been tested in other extreme atmospheric conditions. 

*"Tejas has already been tested for high altitude and cold climate at Leh and in the desert environment of Rajasthan," he said. "During the trials Tejas clocked in excess of 1,350 kmph,"* Varma said, adding that the ADA in tandem with HAL was also in the process of manufacturing a naval version of the LCA. 

"While the present trials are in progress for the air force version, the first prototype aircraft for the navy is also under production. The LCA-navy will be capable of taking off and landing on an aircraft carrier," he said. 

The LCA is expected to cost Rs.150 crore per aircraft and will find its home at the Sulur air force base near Coimbatore. The Indian Air Force has already ordered 20 LCAs from HAL, which will be delivered to them by 2013. 

Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani, who was also present during the media briefing, said the IAF could place a further order of 20 more LCAs after the first order.

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## Tejas-MkII

Screaming Skull said:


> It certainly wasn't the PV5. It could have been PV1, PV3 or LSP2. Those were the only three that flew on Dec-7.
> 
> (08-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA
> 
> Also, notice that the frequency of test flights has increased dramatically in the past few days.



Yes,test Flights are increased very rapidly and most probably we see LSP-3 after this 2 week of testing..

And we are getting 4 LCA in 2011,8 in 2012 and 8 in 2013...
it is slow but LCA is here to Stay..

Also,as you can see it is 2 week test so PV-5 may fly,hopefully,because i have heard naval LCA and Trainer will have lot of similarity...

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## Screaming Skull

sarthak said:


> what ? are you seriously kidding me? This is the fastest speed it has achieved? Sukhoi mki itself has a top speed of 2.3 mach ( around 2800km/h.)
> 
> A real disgrace if this information is true. Nothing to feel proud of at all.


 
Ok here is another report which clearly mentions-



> Light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas notched a speed of over 1,350 km per hour  the fastest by an indigenously-made fighter aircraft  *during its sea level flight trials* off Goa



*Mach 1.1 at sea level* is a bloody good performance by any standards of imagination. It makes it all the more commendable when a fighter that is still more than a year away from achieving its IOC pulls off such a feat! 

Don't you think?

Indian-made fighter plane Tejas clocks fastest speed

Added Later- Tejas-MkII beat me to posting that article with altitude info

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## Tejas-MkII

Screaming Skull said:


> Added Later- Tejas-MkII beat me to posting that article with altitude info



Lets hope Real Tejas-MkII beat every body ....

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## Hulk

Tejas-MkII said:


> Lets hope Real Tejas-MkII beat every body ....



I am happy my gut feeling says this will be highly successful. Additionally wanted to add one thing, have you guys realized how things look different when government increases focus on its defense. The reason for these frequent test flight seems because of this focus on armed forces development. We will be a different force in next 3 to 5 years.

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## Tejas-MkII

we should not forget other things ,except speed ...

there are other things which are tested .... *flutter clearenc,weapon firing,performance, stability and avionics validation*..

And according to the article it is being done ...

so next will be LSP-3 with MMR as new gift to us by DRDO/ADA/HAL ...

with best wishes to have lot of Boom-2,weapon firing,with radar.


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## gogbot

self delete


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## sudhir007

*India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year*

Despite a pending order from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for 20 light combat aircraft (LCA), India can manufacture only eight such aircraft annually, a senior Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) official has said.N. Shyama Rao, project director at the ADA, said Tuesday that while only eight LCA could be manufactured annually, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking unit involved in the manufacture of the LCA, would undertake a massive recruitment drive in order to expand the scope of production of the fighter planes.
&#8216;Currently we can manufacture 8 aircraft per annum, which is extendable up to 12,&#8217; Rao said at a press conference at the INS Hansa, a naval base in Goa 30 km from here.

He also said that HAL in the near future could recruit nearly 500 officers to meet the challenge.

While the IAF has already ordered 20 LCA to be delivered by 2013, they are expected to order 20 more of the fighter craft which was christened Tejas by former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

The LCA will replace the IAF&#8217;s ageing Mig 21-fleet, while the naval version of the LCA will replace the maritime force&#8217;s fleet of Sea Harriers.

&#8216;Even the Indian Navy will be ordering the LCA once the ski jump trials are validated,&#8217; Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani told reporters, adding that the naval version was still in the prototype phase.

The ski jump trials, which are compulsory for the naval version of the LCA, will enable the fighter craft to land and take off from the deck of aircraft carriers. &#8216;After spending some initial years on shore bases, the LCAs will also be posted onboard the Gorshkov, once it joins the Indian fleet,&#8217; Mani said.

He said addition of the LCA to the IAF fleet would help close the gap between the subsonic Kiran aircraft and the supersonic Mig 21.

Armed with air to air, air to ground missiles and a bomb carrying a 1,000 pound payload, the LCA, which clocked in excess of 1,350 kmph during a trial off Goa Tuesday, is expected to cost Rs.150 crore per aircraft.

P.N. Subramanium, project director at the ADA, said the LCA represented fourth generation technology. &#8216;The LCA is contemporary in every sense, whether it is in terms of sensors, electronic systems, technology, weaponry, etc,&#8217; he said.

The indigenously made fighter plane which has been flown by more than a dozen test pilots so far will be ready for induction into the IAF by 2010.

*&#8216;India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year&#8217; IDRW.ORG*

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## ssheppard

*Tejas aircraft trials end successfully*

VASCO: The trials of Tejas, the light combat aircraft (LCA), which lasted for two weeks have successfully ended. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) had introduced three aircraft in Goa for conducting various sea-level flight tests. P S Subramanyam, programme director of LCA, on Tuesday morning, while speaking at a press conference in INS Hansa, Dabolim, said, "LCA is on its way for induction into the IAF after achieving the initial operational clearance in December 2010." 

The LCA is the first supersonic fighter being manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. When 20 such LCA will be manufactured it will be given to the Air force and the other 20 to the Navy, it is a package of 40 LCA. 

Tejas aircraft trials end successfully - Goa - City - The Times of India

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1260 Test Flights successfully. (09-Dec-09).

* LCA has completed 1260 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-235,PV2-128,PV3-188,LSP1-54,LSP2-116,PV5-1).
* 235th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 08th Dec 09.
* 188th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 08th Dec 09.
* 116th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 08th Dec 09.

(09-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA


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## sudhir007

A contract for procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration, along with associated role equipment, reserve engines, engine support package, engine test bed and computer based training (CBT) package from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was signed in March 2006. The total contract cost is Rs. 2701.70 crores. The specifications of the aircraft are as per the Air Service Requirements framed by the Indian Air Force. Delivery of the aircraft is expected to commence after IOC is achieved.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Pradeep Majhi in Lok Sabha today.
PIB Press Release


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## sudhir007

http://www.aero.iisc.ernet.in/kartik/INCAST_sudha5.pdf

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## Spitfighter

sudhir007 said:


> *India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year*
> 
> Despite a pending order from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for 20 light combat aircraft (LCA), India can manufacture only eight such aircraft annually, a senior Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) official has said.N. Shyama Rao, project director at the ADA, said Tuesday that while only eight LCA could be manufactured annually, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking unit involved in the manufacture of the LCA, would undertake a massive recruitment drive in order to expand the scope of production of the fighter planes.
> Currently we can manufacture 8 aircraft per annum, which is extendable up to 12, Rao said at a press conference at the INS Hansa, a naval base in Goa 30 km from here.
> 
> He also said that HAL in the near future could recruit nearly 500 officers to meet the challenge.
> 
> While the IAF has already ordered 20 LCA to be delivered by 2013, they are expected to order 20 more of the fighter craft which was christened Tejas by former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.
> 
> The LCA will replace the IAFs ageing Mig 21-fleet, while the naval version of the LCA will replace the maritime forces fleet of Sea Harriers.
> 
> Even the Indian Navy will be ordering the LCA once the ski jump trials are validated, Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani told reporters, adding that the naval version was still in the prototype phase.
> 
> The ski jump trials, which are compulsory for the naval version of the LCA, will enable the fighter craft to land and take off from the deck of aircraft carriers. After spending some initial years on shore bases, the LCAs will also be posted onboard the Gorshkov, once it joins the Indian fleet, Mani said.
> 
> He said addition of the LCA to the IAF fleet would help close the gap between the subsonic Kiran aircraft and the supersonic Mig 21.
> 
> Armed with air to air, air to ground missiles and a bomb carrying a 1,000 pound payload, the LCA, which clocked in excess of 1,350 kmph during a trial off Goa Tuesday, is expected to cost Rs.150 crore per aircraft.
> 
> P.N. Subramanium, project director at the ADA, said the LCA represented fourth generation technology. The LCA is contemporary in every sense, whether it is in terms of sensors, electronic systems, technology, weaponry, etc, he said.
> 
> The indigenously made fighter plane which has been flown by more than a dozen test pilots so far will be ready for induction into the IAF by 2010.
> 
> *India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year IDRW.ORG*




Not bad, India is still in the process of developing its industrial capacity. We can expect this number to go up significantly in the coming years. If we can maintain this momentum, India's war fighting capacity will increase exponentially in the coming years. 

We have a multitude of projects in the pipeline and if all goes as planned by 2020 India will be a true military power.

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## Screaming Skull

sudhir007 said:


> http://www.aero.iisc.ernet.in/kartik/INCAST_sudha5.pdf



Great find sudhir007!

An interesting graph from the presentation-





Observe the lower most curve in the graph. That is the Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) curve. It suggests that the LCA has been designed for a max CAS of 1354 kmph which the dunderhead reporters mistook for the max speed of the LCA. CAS has nothing to do with the max speed of an air craft and it is impossible to estimate the max speed of an aircraft from its max design CAS.

So what is CAS?



> *Calibrated airspeed (CAS) is the speed shown by a conventional airspeed indicator after correction for instrument error and position error.* Most EFIS displays also show CAS. At high speeds and altitudes, calibrated airspeed is further corrected for compressibility errors and becomes equivalent airspeed (EAS).
> *When flying at sea level under International Standard Atmosphere conditions (15&#176;C, 1013 hPa, 0&#37; humidity) calibrated airspeed is the same as equivalent airspeed and true airspeed (TAS).* If there is no wind it is also the same as ground speed (GS). Under any other conditions, CAS may differ from the aircraft's TAS and GS.
> Calibrated airspeed in knots is usually abbreviated as KCAS, while indicated airspeed is abbreviated as KIAS.
> 
> *Practical applications of CAS*
> 
> CAS has two primary applications in aviation:
> 
> &#8226; for navigation, CAS is traditionally calculated as one of the steps between indicated airspeed and true airspeed;
> 
> &#8226; for aircraft control, CAS (and EAS) are the primary reference points, since they describe the dynamic pressure acting on aircraft surfaces regardless of density altitude, wind, and other conditions. EAS is used as a reference by aircraft designers, but EAS cannot be displayed correctly at varying altitudes by a simple (single capsule) airspeed indicator. CAS is therefore a standard for calibrating the airspeed indicator such that CAS equals EAS at sea level pressure and approximates EAS at higher altitudes.
> 
> Calibrated airspeed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



In short what it basically means is - a conventional airspeed indicator in the LCA will show a true airspeed under International Standard Atmosphere conditions (15&#176;C, 1013 hPa, 0% humidity) upto a speed of 1354 kmph. Beyond this speed the CAS and TAS for the LCA will start diverging at ISA conditions.

The graph also proves that the LCA has already been tested at Mach 1.4 at an altitude of 1000 m. Further, it can be noted that the LCA is capable of achieving Mach 1.6 at altitudes of about 7000 m at CAS. For some reason the curves in the graph have been truncated after Mach 1.6. But if one extrapolates the CAS curve, it can be observed that the LCA will touch speeds of upto Mach 2 at altitudes approaching 10000 m. The MKI can achieve a top speed of about Mach 2.3 at an altitude of 11000 m. 

However, what is interesting to note is that the MKI has a max ground level speed of only 1350 kmph. The LCA on the other hand has achieved that speed at sea level that too in Goa. The location is significant because the weather conditions in Goa vary drastically from ISA conditions of 15&#176;C, 1013 hPa and 0% humidity. The density of air in Goa at sea level will be higher than the density of air at ISA conditions at ground level. Therefore, it can be concluded that the LCA will have a top speed more than that of MKI at ground level in ISA conditions. That is precisely the reason why the Navy is interested in the Navalized version of the LCA!

All this with a &#8216;supposedly&#8217; under powered GE-F404 engine! I have no doubt in my mind that the Mk-2 with a much more powerful engine will easily have the among the highest T/W ratio and the largest flight envelope amongst all 4+ gen fighters in the world.

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## ssheppard

I would really appreciate some one explaining *Flutter clearance *

Thanks in advance.


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## Tejas-MkII

This one is from BRF:
Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - LCA news and discussion

here are speeds of fighters at sea-levels

JAS-39 A/B Gripen 
Maximum Speed at Sea Level - 1,225 km/h

EuroFighter Typhoon 
# At sea level: Mach 1.2[173] (1470 km/h / 913.2 mph) [174]

Su30MKI 
(a 1350 km/h ground-level speed)

F-22
at sea level: 920 mph (1,480 km/h), Mach 1.2 

Rafale 
at sea level: 864 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.135 

Mig29K 
at sea level: 670 knots (771 mph; 1240 km/h) - sea level.

F-18SH 
at sea level: 835 mph (1,350 km/h), Mach 1.1 

J-10 
915 mph (1,470 km.h), Mach 1.2 

Mig-21 
at sea level: 800 mph (1,275 km/h), Mach 1.05


And our LCA has Mach 1.1 at sea level..

Taht is also with GE-404 , it will beat many in the the list with 414 or EJ-200

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## Tejas-MkII

*Successful flight flutter test for Tejas*


INS Hansa Base (Goa), Dec 9 (PTI) *The aircraft dived towards the sea as the pilot lifted his hands off the control stick for five seconds. In such a short duration, it had plummeted from four kilometres above sea level to just 900 metres before the pilot hit to the throttle again to take to the skies.*

*The 'flight flutter test', a mandatory procedure for fighter crafts, was conducted off the Goa coast on Tejas in maritime environment by the agencies, which are testing this technology, a senior Indian Air Force officer said today.*

The successful flight flutter test on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, was an important step towards developing of this craft, labelled as the first supersonic fighter plane manufactured in India, the officer said.


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## sudhir007

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

this is the link of above statement which tejes-MkII given

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## Tejas-MkII

Cross posting from MRCA thread:

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ould-develop-thrust-vectoring-with-india.html

*Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India *
By Murdo Morrison

The consortium behind the Eurofighter Typhoon's engine has hinted strongly that it could partner a non-European country - *possibly India - *to develop and demonstrate a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 as part of a technology-sharing deal.

Eurojet is keen to source funds to test its thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) on a flight demonstrator. It believes if it can obtain enough in-flight data, it will be able to prove the lifecycle cost benefits of the technology - which has been in development for over a decade - to current and future customers.

However, military budget pressures facing the four Eurofighter launch nations - Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK - and scepticism about the advantages of a capability associated more with spectacular air show manoeuvres than operating prudence will make it difficult to secure backing from existing customers.

Instead, the four-nation industrial combine and Eurofighter plan to discuss with possible export customers offset and technology transfer packages that would include "growth potential" for the fighter.

"*We are evaluating future markets and a number of RFPs [requests for proposal] have asked for potential growth," *says Adrian Johnson, senior vice-president sales for Eurojet. "*TVN is in there. It might be that a customer outside Europe could come on board and embrace that technology."*

Although Eurofighter has secured Austria and Saudi Arabia as export customers and is pitching the Typhoon at countries such as Greece, Japan, Romania, Switzerland and Turkey, *India is the most likely partner because of the size of its requirement and the fact that it is determined to develop its aerospace industrial base.*

*Another factor is that Eurojet is separately bidding against General Electric to supply the EJ200 for an improved version of India's single-engine Tejas light combat aircraft. A combined offer could provide sufficient economies to persuade India to fund a demonstration programme.*

*Johnson says Eurojet could be ready for a flight demonstration within 18-24 months, but stresses that the emphasis will be on obtaining data that backs the TVN's economic benefits rather than its enhanced dogfighting capability.*

"Increasing agility isn't going to cause [potential customers] to back TVN," he says. "What will cause them to back it is a reduction in lifecycle costs. That's what we have to demonstrate and build a cast-iron case around."

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## sudhir007

hello Tajes-II i have a question in my mind regarding new engine price as per the news i read somewhere that ej200 come at the cost of 10milion doller, 5-6 for ge414-400EPE and around 2-2.5 for rd-33mk. if we select ej200(already blk-1 come at $31M) the TVN it will add further more cost so the total cost of LCA-mkII is around $35-40M may be more on this coze of some more advance part install in this. did you think then it is good option to buy single eninge a/c which cost around same as su-30. I know it is our indigenous product but if it cost around $40M then their export change is very low coze it add further additional training, infrastructure it will come at same price at f-16 or JAS-39 look at both home ground price and export price marginally same


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## manojb

Can some one explain what is "flight flutter test" to a aeronautic illeterate? Has anyone seen gambit?


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## brahmastra

LCA Fighter aircraft clocks fastest speed during testing







INS Hansa (Goa) In the final phase of its tests before formal commissioning, Indias indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday. The aircraft went past its ultimate speed of 1350 kmph on December 7 over the skies in Goa after take off from the naval air station INS Hansa, Commander Rohit Varma, project director (flight test), National flight test centre, told reporters here.

This is the fastest speed ever achieved by an Indian- made fighter aircraft, he said. The aircraft also passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet. *Tejas has already passed high-altitude tests in Leh, the desert rigours in Rajasthan and now it has proved its worth over the maritime space in Goa*, Varma said.

The IAF has already ordered 20 LCAs from HAL at a contract worth Rs 2701.70 crore. The fighters are to be delivered by 2013. The LCA, a project of aeronautical development agency (ADA) is the first supersonic fighter craft manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The aircraft will have naval and Indian air force version, of which the latter is undergoing testing at Goa naval base. It can fly from a base and also from an aircraft carrier, P S Subramanyam, Programme Director (Combat aircraft) and director, ADA, said. The officials confirmed that the naval version of the aircraft would be attached to aircraft carrier Gorshkov once the aircraft is inducted for operations.

*Subramanyam said the LCA-naval will have capability to take off from ski jump platform of aircraft carriers. The development of the naval version is progressing very fast.* There are few glitches but we will overcome them. The IAF is likely to base the lightweight multi-role jet fighters at Sulur in Coimbatore. They are earmarked for squadron no 45, which will be the first LCA squadron, Varma said.

The HAL has manufactured four aircraft which are being put under rigorous testing by fighter pilots. Varma said a team led by Captain Jaydeep Malawankar was testing the aircraft before their induction into the defence force. Air vice Marshal Shankar Mani told reporters that the first consignment of four aircraft would be delivered by January 2011, followed by eight aircraft in 2012 and another eight in 2013.


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## Tejas-MkII

Tejas engine offset offers come in - dnaindia.com

*Tejas engine offset offers come in*

Praveena Sharma / DNASaturday, December 12, 2009 3:34 IST 

Bangalore: European aerospace company Eurojet and America's General Electric submitted offset proposals for their bids for light combat aircraft Tejas engines to the ministry of defence on Friday, a day before the deadline expires -- December 12.The Indian government invites offset proposals from bidders of defence and civil aircraft deals. 

An offset obligation is expected to be discharged through direct purchases or by executing export orders for defence products and components manufactured by or services provided by Indian defence industries. In many instances, it also involves technology transfer and training for military requirements. 

*As per the defence procurement policy 2006, 30-50% offset obligation is mandatory for the winner of the defence deal. There are two offset proposals -- technical and commercial -- submitted by each bidder, which are opened after completion of technical and commercial evaluations. For instance, technical offset proposal is opened after the technical evaluation and commercial offset offer after commercial evaluation. *

Since the offset programme of the Indian government will require transfer of the key technology, the two aerospace companies need clearances from their respectively governments or regional economic organisations. 

Apparently, *Eurojet, which will be supplying its EJ200 for the new LCA Tejas, has got clearance from Nato Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency (Netma) for the transfer of "key technology" under the offset programme.* 

*"In their proposal, they (Eurojet) have accepted to transfer key technology. They have also mentioned in the same note they can discuss transfer of other technologies too*," the source said. 

According to him, *if the European engine maker offers 100% transfer of technology, the price of its bid would shoot up; *"Then its bid would not be competitive."Eurojet has said it would form a joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or some private company to fulfill its offset obligation. 

GE, which will supply the F-414 engine, is also said to have acquired the approval of the US government for technology transfer for the LCA programme. The two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines for Tejas.


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## Tejas-MkII

Now this report about Kaveri , note the present TOT &#37;..

Broadsword: Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters

*Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters*


by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 12th Dec 09


In what was nominated in 1976 as the Fight of the Year, boxing legend, George Foreman, staggered to his feet after being twice knocked down by Ron Lyle, to flatten Lyle with a stunning knockout punch. If the Ministry of Defence has its way, India&#8217;s Kaveri engine, bitterly criticised as underpowered even after two decades of development, could recover to do a Foreman on its two world-class rivals.


Meant to power the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Kaveri was heading for a quiet burial after completing flight tests that are underway in Russia. In its place, two alternatives were short-listed: the Eurojet EJ200, and the General Electric F-414 engines. A final choice was expected within weeks.


But, unexpectedly, the Kaveri has gotten off the floor. Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- *apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence*. The DRDO&#8217;s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.


*A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozy&#8217;s visit to India in early 2010.*


*Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju, has confirmed to Business Standard, &#8220;It is important for India to have indigenous capabilities in engine design. And having invested so many man-hours of work into the design of the Kaveri engine, it would be a national waste to fritter away or dilute those capabilities&#8230;. (Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet or GE.&#8221;*


*Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE.*


An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: &#8220;*The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies*.&#8221;


GTRE designers say that it would take about 4 years to co-develop an engine with Snecma, somewhat longer than the 3-year time frame in which the EJ200 or F-414 would start being delivered. Based upon the performance of the Kaveri flight in the ongoing flight tests in Russia, GTRE sources are confident that, &#8220;*Snecma-GTRE is fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200.&#8221;*

That will involve improving from the current Kaveri&#8217;s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN), to the 95 KN that the EJ200 and F-414 develop.


While Snecma remains tight-lipped, it is aware of the challenges in such a project. *Business Standard has learned that Snecma had conducted a Technical Audit of the Kaveri programme in 1998, identifying design challenges that included developing materials that could withstand the combustion chamber temperatures of around 2000 degrees centigrade*.


*While the MoD is trusting Snecma to help GTRE in overcoming these challenges, it is also aware of the Kaveri&#8217;s unenviable record of time and cost overruns.* *The MoD is still considering whether to put all its eggs in the GTRE-Snecma basket or to go ahead on a parallel track, choosing either the EJ200, or the GE F-414, as insurance against further delays.*


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## Tejas-MkII

I think MoD should not put all its in Kaveri Basket...

If that is the case and if they have to choose GE-414 or EJ, then go for the Cheaper and stronger one for LCA----- 414-EPE(I am not fond of US products)...

We can also see that European might agree for Transfer of 'Key' technologies, but that make their bid costly which obviously affect cost of MkII...

Now , there may be very intersting things can happen.Like MoD bought 99 GE-414 EPE for 40-60 MkII without much ToT and deveplope Kaveri with Snecma, uses the core of M-88,this deal plus M2K upgradation Deal Plus ultimate MRCA deal...

India can lot of things and france can get lot of money, as the volume of production will be big which tend to decrease the price of every product from engine, M2K upgrade(don forget Israel affect) and Rafale...

*PS: That's is why Engine Procurement(GE or EJ) is not not related to MRCA.*


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## mean_bird

manojb said:


> Can some one explain what is "flight flutter test" to a aeronautic illeterate? Has anyone seen gambit?



Since you say you aren't into aviation, let me be simple.

A flutter test is a test of vibration of the aircraft. A "flight flutter test", as the name suggests, is a test of vibration in the airframe during flight. This usually happens when the airplane gathers speed, usually nearing its maximum theoretical speed. This in effect is done by gaining significant elevation and diving the plane so it gathers speed. The vibration is tested on various parts of the plane and compared against theoretical limits. If the plane vibrates too much, it risk getting ripped apart in mid-air. Flight flutter testing is a significant and hi-risk test for most airplanes.

Flutter involves the interaction between aerodynamics, elastic and inertia forces that come into play on structures that results in an unwanted (sometimes dangerous) oscillation (vibration). 

The Airbus A380 reached a speed of mach 0.96 during its flutter testing.


If you are a geek fan or want more information on it, here are two very nice and well explained readings about flutter testing, including the historical perspective. 

1-http://www.angelfire.com/music/thugboy/thesis/table.htm
2-http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19960004074_1996104074.pdf

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## shchinese

> The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies.



 such comments clearly shows indians are still about 2 decades away from mastering the engine. 

wake up, it is not about a few high end technologies, you need the facility, the infrastructure and a all those high end key technologies to get the engine combat ready. the facility is the most hard one as this is the exact problem we are now facing in China - we can build reliable ws-10a in small numbers, but once we start produce them in factories, we get shitty reliability, why? *because mass production requires the facility to be world class". 

 I feel much better after reading this "news", the sky will be ours in the next 2 decades at least.*


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## Dark Angel

shchinese said:


> such comments clearly shows indians are still about 2 decades away from mastering the engine.
> 
> wake up, it is not about a few high end technologies, you need the facility, the infrastructure and a all those high end key technologies to get the engine combat ready. the facility is the most hard one as this is the exact problem we are now facing in China - we can build reliable ws-10a in small numbers, but once we start produce them in factories, we get shitty reliability, why? *because mass production requires the facility to be world class".
> 
> I feel much better after reading this "news", the sky will be ours in the next 2 decades at least.*


*


Still no sign of the domestic engine WS-10A yet.

Russia to supply over 100 fighter plane engines to China - Rosoboronexport

Moscow , 4 February: Russia has signed its first contract in 2009 with China on the supply of over 100 aircraft engines for J-10 planes, Rosoboronexport Director-General Anatoliy Isaykin has said.

"The world's leading analysts think that the People's Republic of China will continue to buy military transport aircraft, including strategic refuelling tankers, long-range radar surveillance and carrier-borne aircraft, as well as aircraft engines. By the way, our first contract in 2009 was signed with China on the supply of over 100 aircraft engines for J-10 planes," Isaykin said in an interview with Nezavisimaya Gazeta published today.

China Defense Blog: Still no sign of the domestic engine WS-10A yet.*


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## Sravan

shchinese said:


> such comments clearly shows indians are still about 2 decades away from mastering the engine.
> 
> wake up, it is not about a few high end technologies, you need the facility, the infrastructure and a all those high end key technologies to get the engine combat ready. the facility is the most hard one as this is the exact problem we are now facing in China - we can build reliable ws-10a in small numbers, but once we start produce them in factories, we get shitty reliability, why? *because mass production requires the facility to be world class".
> 
> I feel much better after reading this "news", the sky will be ours in the next 2 decades at least.*


*

Its an Honour and life achievement to meet a troll like you *


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## Dark Angel

You have not shown any signs of a big leap in the production of ur own engines and u are commenting on a diffrent project .........atleast our goverment is crystal clear with its people abt what is happening unlike the cutoff world ur living in...

The only people who are living in false hopes are u guys .....u dont have a engine in the production line and think of projects like a 5th generation jet fighter jxx .......


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## Hulk

shchinese said:


> such comments clearly shows indians are still about 2 decades away from mastering the engine.
> 
> wake up, it is not about a few high end technologies, you need the facility, the infrastructure and a all those high end key technologies to get the engine combat ready. the facility is the most hard one as this is the exact problem we are now facing in China - we can build reliable ws-10a in small numbers, but once we start produce them in factories, we get shitty reliability, why? *because mass production requires the facility to be world class".
> 
> I feel much better after reading this "news", the sky will be ours in the next 2 decades at least.*


*

either we are decades behind or more why it interest you so much that most of you comment or on Indian defence. If you are so superior which I am not denying why are you loosing sleep on our work.*

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## SU-57E

this shchinese dude(if he is) is everywhere...

about "sky will be ours"... sky is still yours.... its just what you want to do with it... sky is for every pne in the world except may be china... because the people over there will have to wait for 2 decades....


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## shchinese

indianrabbit said:


> either we are decades behind or more why it interest you so much that most of you comment or on Indian defence. If you are so superior which I am not denying why are you loosing sleep on our work.



pointing out the clear misunderstanding regarding such basic military gears is an interesting and important part of the online discussion. 

are you suggesting I am not allowed to point out such clear misunderstandings just because of india's backwards?

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## gogbot

Tejas-MkII said:


> Now this report about Kaveri , note the present TOT %..
> 
> Broadsword: Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters
> 
> *Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters*
> 
> 
> by Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 12th Dec 09
> 
> 
> In what was nominated in 1976 as the Fight of the Year, boxing legend, George Foreman, staggered to his feet after being twice knocked down by Ron Lyle, to flatten Lyle with a stunning knockout punch. If the Ministry of Defence has its way, Indias Kaveri engine, bitterly criticised as underpowered even after two decades of development, could recover to do a Foreman on its two world-class rivals.
> 
> 
> Meant to power the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Kaveri was heading for a quiet burial after completing flight tests that are underway in Russia. In its place, two alternatives were short-listed: the Eurojet EJ200, and the General Electric F-414 engines. A final choice was expected within weeks.
> 
> 
> But, unexpectedly, the Kaveri has gotten off the floor. Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- *apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence*. The DRDOs Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.
> 
> 
> *A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozys visit to India in early 2010.*
> 
> 
> *Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju, has confirmed to Business Standard, It is important for India to have indigenous capabilities in engine design. And having invested so many man-hours of work into the design of the Kaveri engine, it would be a national waste to fritter away or dilute those capabilities. (Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet or GE.*
> 
> 
> *Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE.*
> 
> 
> An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: *The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies*.
> 
> 
> GTRE designers say that it would take about 4 years to co-develop an engine with Snecma, somewhat longer than the 3-year time frame in which the EJ200 or F-414 would start being delivered. Based upon the performance of the Kaveri flight in the ongoing flight tests in Russia, GTRE sources are confident that, *Snecma-GTRE is fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200.*
> 
> That will involve improving from the current Kaveris maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN), to the 95 KN that the EJ200 and F-414 develop.
> 
> 
> While Snecma remains tight-lipped, it is aware of the challenges in such a project. *Business Standard has learned that Snecma had conducted a Technical Audit of the Kaveri programme in 1998, identifying design challenges that included developing materials that could withstand the combustion chamber temperatures of around 2000 degrees centigrade*.
> 
> 
> *While the MoD is trusting Snecma to help GTRE in overcoming these challenges, it is also aware of the Kaveris unenviable record of time and cost overruns.* *The MoD is still considering whether to put all its eggs in the GTRE-Snecma basket or to go ahead on a parallel track, choosing either the EJ200, or the GE F-414, as insurance against further delays.*



This what i have been saying all along.

Lets get the Rafael for MMRCA. Get SCHEMA fully on board with this venture.

Then Install The Kaveri Enine in both the Rafael and LCA.



> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF



a 95 kt trust, is that with or without After burners.

For that matter is the New engine going to be an after burning engine


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## Tejas-MkII

gogbot said:


> This what i have been saying all along.
> 
> Lets get the Rafael for MMRCA. Get SCHEMA fully on board with this venture.
> 
> Then Install The Kaveri Enine in both the Rafael and LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> a 95 kt trust, is that with or without After burners.
> 
> For that matter is the New engine going to be an after burning engine



It will be ideal if it is possible...

But Kaveri still atleast 4 years away and i don't think it will be so simple to put a new engine like kaveri into rafale... it will take lot of time and IAF cann't wiat that long , so for now Rafale should come with M-88-3(90KN),may in future we can integrate Kaveri with Rafale..

As i say That's why IAf is saying Engine Procurement (EJ or EPE) is not related to MMRCA.

May be this possiblity is also in the mind of both IAF/MOD and french governmet..

First JV for engine then Possibly for Rafale to decrease the cost...


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## shchinese

how you get the processor for LCA's fire control computer? harvest from trees? the general public in india deserve to know such details after funding the project for 25 years. 

for example, for our J-10, the fire control computer is a domestic made one, the north-west uni (not the US one, Chinese north west uni) did it. such facts are being discussed on our military forums for long. 

how about ask the same question? whether the fire control computer is domestically sourced/built?

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## AVIAN

shchinese said:


> how you get the processor for LCA's fire control computer? harvest from trees? the general public in india deserve to know such details after funding the project for 25 years.



I never conceded that processor for LCA's for fire control computer ever harvested by India, it is you who barking about its foriegn involvement, then please come foreward give conclusive evidence about foriegn involvement according to you for kind general knowledege of Indian public.



shchinese said:


> for example, for our J-10, the fire control computer is a domestic made one, the north-west uni (not the US one, Chinese north west uni) did it. such facts are being discussed on our military forums for long.
> 
> how about ask the same question? whether the fire control computer is domestically sourced/built?



I never bother about that since I never conceded ever in my previous post, if you are so sure about its foriegn hand in fire control system of Tejas then go and do some research and give us some evidence about it rather then asking some shitty questions, else just shut up!


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## shchinese

AVIAN said:


> I never bother about that since I never conceded ever in my previous post, if you are so sure about its foriegn hand in fire control system of Tejas then go and do some research and give us some evidence about it rather then asking some shitty questions, else just shut up!



foreign hands are everywhere in your defence projects. for example, the mumbai class involved equipments/components from a dozen country. this is your problem, deal with it. 

last month, a photo showing two foreign made components (low tech, low cost, can be made by over 100 companies in China) on our missiles are being circled on the internet. we observed outrages from people. 

this is our major difference - we rely on no one and that is the reason why we have J-10/FC-1/J-11/J-11B/JH-7A in active service while you are still dreaming about the LCA's future. 



have a look, we never tolerate such crap in our country.

btw, these two components costs less than a hundred $ at best.


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## sudhir007

*Tejas engine offset offers come in IDRW.ORG*

European aerospace company Eurojet and America&#8217;s General Electric submitted offset proposals for their bids for light combat aircraft Tejas engines to the ministry of defence on Friday, a day before the deadline expires December 12.The Indian government invites offset proposals from bidders of defence and civil aircraft deals.
An offset obligation is expected to be discharged through direct purchases or by executing export orders for defence products and components manufactured by or services provided by Indian defence industries. In many instances, it also involves technology transfer and training for military requirements.

As per the defence procurement policy 2006, 30-50&#37; offset obligation is mandatory for the winner of the defence deal. There are two offset proposals &#8212; technical and commercial &#8212; submitted by each bidder, which are opened after completion of technical and commercial evaluations. For instance, technical offset proposal is opened after the technical evaluation and commercial offset offer after commercial evaluation.

Since the offset programme of the Indian government will require transfer of the key technology, the two aerospace companies need clearances from their respectively governments or regional economic organisations.

Apparently, Eurojet, which will be supplying its EJ200 for the new LCA Tejas, has got clearance from Nato Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency (Netma) for the transfer of &#8220;key technology&#8221; under the offset programme.

&#8220;In their proposal, they (Eurojet) have accepted to transfer key technology. They have also mentioned in the same note they can discuss transfer of other technologies too,&#8221; the source said.

According to him, if the European engine maker offers 100% transfer of technology, the price of its bid would shoot up; &#8220;Then its bid would not be competitive.&#8221;Eurojet has said it would form a joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or some private company to fulfill its offset obligation.

GE, which will supply the F-414 engine, is also said to have acquired the approval of the US government for technology transfer for the LCA programme. The two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines for Tejas.


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## faithfulguy

Sravan said:


> how much did you suck russians dick for engines?



As an Indian, unless India is more advance than China when it comes to engine development, its not a good idea ask him about it. Also, Shchinese is just rying to rile you up. Do not let him. After many years of working on developing an airplane for the first time, India is very close on coming up with an indigenous plane, keep up the good work. Both China and India are relatively backward on technology, including aviation technology. Its like two kids in a class of 40 people fighting over who is the 10th smartest kid in the class. Unless if China or India can build the best plane, its no point to boast. I do not see Americans boast in this forum Why, because there is no need too? Also, in my opinion, besides Shchinese, most Chinese do not tell Indians how China's tech is more advance than India's. It appear that in this forum, most Indian posters are more insecure than Chinese ones here.


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## Spitfighter

No point replying to garbage, just keep the updates on the LCA coming!


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## sudhir007

*Broadsword: Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters*

The Kaveri on a test bed at GTRE, Bangalore, readying for its despatch to Russia for altitude and flight tests. The testing, near Moscow, is going well, say GTRE officials.

Business Standard, 12th Dec 09

In what was nominated in 1976 as the Fight of the Year, boxing legend, George Foreman, staggered to his feet after being twice knocked down by Ron Lyle, to flatten Lyle with a stunning knockout punch. If the Ministry of Defence has its way, India&#8217;s Kaveri engine, bitterly criticised as underpowered even after two decades of development, could recover to do a Foreman on its two world-class rivals.

Meant to power the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Kaveri was heading for a quiet burial after completing flight tests that are underway in Russia. In its place, two alternatives were short-listed: the Eurojet EJ200, and the General Electric F-414 engines. A final choice was expected within weeks.

But, unexpectedly, the Kaveri has gotten off the floor. Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence. The DRDO&#8217;s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.

A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozy&#8217;s visit to India in early 2010.

Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju, has confirmed to Business Standard, &#8220;It is important for India to have indigenous capabilities in engine design. And having invested so many man-hours of work into the design of the Kaveri engine, it would be a national waste to fritter away or dilute those capabilities&#8230;. (Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet or GE.&#8221;

Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE.

An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: &#8220;The tender stipulates that 50&#37; of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies.&#8221;

GTRE designers say that it would take about 4 years to co-develop an engine with Snecma, somewhat longer than the 3-year time frame in which the EJ200 or F-414 would start being delivered. Based upon the performance of the Kaveri flight in the ongoing flight tests in Russia, GTRE sources are confident that, &#8220;Snecma-GTRE is fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200.&#8221;

That will involve improving from the current Kaveri&#8217;s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN), to the 95 KN that the EJ200 and F-414 develop.

While Snecma remains tight-lipped, it is aware of the challenges in such a project. Business Standard has learned that Snecma had conducted a Technical Audit of the Kaveri programme in 1998, identifying design challenges that included developing materials that could withstand the combustion chamber temperatures of around 2000 degrees centigrade.

While the MoD is trusting Snecma to help GTRE in overcoming these challenges, it is also aware of the Kaveri&#8217;s unenviable record of time and cost overruns. The MoD is still considering whether to put all its eggs in the GTRE-Snecma basket or to go ahead on a parallel track, choosing either the EJ200, or the GE F-414, as insurance against further delays.


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## Tejas-MkII

PIB Press Release

The proposal on the Kaveri-Snecma engine joint venture for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is under consideration of the Government. 

Request for Proposal (RFP) for procuring 99 engines have been sent to two short-listed engine manufacturers, namely GE F414 from General Electric Aviation, USA and EJ200 from Eurojet Germany. 

The engine houses have responded to the RFP. Both Commercial and technical responses have been received for procurement of 99 engines along with Transfer of Technology. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Gajanan D Babar and others in Lok Sabha today.



---------------------------

So IAF/MOD may be going parallely with the GE/EJ and Snecma/GTRE.


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## EagleEyes

> those supporting the jf 17.... thinking they got it made quickly ... remember is classified as almost 4 gen fighter .... i repeat almost. and ur delievery is 2012 to 2014. the chinese have not decided to use it for themselves. basically they sell u cheap and copycat stuff with probably no quality and u held it high ....
> 
> we make stuff.. fail .. but make it best in the end ... from dhanush .. akash ... astra etc .. which have been failures but now a powerful sucess. lca mark 2 will be success .



Your understanding of military aviation is zero. Go get a better understanding and then come back.


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## shchinese

neo29 said:


> those who criticize the LCA .. saying its so old project... and still going on are seriously fools who do not know the history
> 
> building a 4.5 generation ac is no joke or childs play



*breaking news, india started 4.5 generation fighter R&D 30 years ago, well ahead of the US and Russia*. 

LCA is 2.5 generation at best. It is more like our L-15. 

Hongdu L-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LCA is worse than L-15 from all spec.

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## indiatech

Is this guy unbanned intentionally time and again to write crap ?

Look at the volume of crap he writes everywhere and makes fun of a good discussion forum.


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## Spitfighter

shchinese said:


> *breaking news, india started 4.5 generation fighter R&D 30 years ago, well ahead of the US and Russia*.
> *
> LCA is 2.5 generation at best. It is more like our L-15. *
> 
> Hongdu L-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> LCA is worse than L-15 from all spec.



Can you back up your claim? How is the L-15 better than the LCA? and what exactly makes the LCA a 2.5 and not a 4th gen fighter?

You've been banned at least twice, yet you shamelessly comeback to spew your ignorant BS. Why don't you spend some time actually learning something for once. Wouldn't that be worth more than the few yuan you make for posting bullshit?


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## gogbot

One of my old posts.



If i may , i would like to take some liberty by quoting Wikipedia.
On the generations of Planes. I only intend to present my side of the argument, Your free to make your own choice.



> First generation jet fighters
> 
> The early aircraft of this group entered production during the closing years of World War II with planform similar to their piston counterparts. Later transonic aircraft, such as the MiG-15, are sometimes referred to as a "second generation" and the end of this generation is very loose.





> Second generation jet fighters
> 
> The beginning of this generation is blurry, but aircraft that were designed for missile armament and supersonic speed are generally considered to be at least second generation.



India's unsatisfactory "HAL HF-24 Marut" falls into this category.



> Third generation jet fighters
> 
> Third generation aircraft were based on the wrong assumption that air to air missiles would replace dogfighting, and many were initially built without internal gun armament.





> Fourth generation jet fighters
> 
> Fourth generation fighters had a renewed focus on maneuverability and many were again designed with an internal gun armament.



Now i hope we can agree that the Tejas is in 4th gen category at least.

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## gogbot

> 4.5th generation jet fighters
> 
> This "half generation" is a term defined by the United States Government as fourth generation aircraft that have vastly improved avionics (digital fly-by-wire), sensors (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars), high speed data links and the ability to carry the latest weapons. Some sources refer to some members of this group as fourth or 4++ generation aircraft instead.



Now being a 4++ aircraft to put it simply, largely depends on the gadgets within the plane.

So the US classifies a plane 4.5 gen if it has:

(1): Digital fly-by-wire



> Since the Tejas is a "relaxed static stability" design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot.



(2):Electronically Scanned Array radars



> Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sensor for the new radar is supposed to be *EL/M-2052 AESA* from Elta and the remaining item and software will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products. Varadarajan, (Director &#8212; LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar for airborne applications. And that these radars will be integrated with Tejas light combat aircraft-Mark II by 2012-13.



(3):High speed data links



> India's Light Combat Aircraft tests its teeth
> 
> Each aircraft, from the time it started up, was being monitored in detail, the data transmitting live from the aircraft over a high-speed data link



Now i know for a fact that the IAF would reject any plane that did not have this feature. But just to make sure, i can back it up. I went and found an article that made specific reference to high speed data links.

(4):The ability to carry the latest weapons



> Originally intended to serve as an air superiority aircraft with a secondary "dumb bomb" ground-attack role, the flexibility of this design approach has permitted a* variety of guided air-to-surface and anti-shipping weapons to be integrated for more well-rounded multirole and multimission capabilities.*
> 
> All weapons are carried on one or more of seven hardpoints with total capacity of greater than 4,000 kg: three stations under each wing and one on the under-fuselage centreline. *There is also an eighth, offset station beneath the port-side intake trunk which can carry a variety of pods (FLIR, IRST, laser rangefinder/designator, or reconnaissance), as can the centreline under-fuselage station and inboard pairs of wing stations.*


*
*

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## gogbot

(Additional 4++ features)

(5):Trust vectoring and super cruise 



> In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected The ADA plans to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000&#8211;23,000 lbf) range. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414. The *Eurojet EJ200 propulsion offer has thrust-vectoring.*



This would be the case if the *Euro-fighter* is chosen for the MMRCA contract.

If However the *Dassault Rafale* is chosen



> ADA awarded a contract to *SNECMA* for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems.
> 
> *Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen*, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. * India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".[*



*Look below dez's post for continuation-------*

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## BlackenTheSky

when actually LCA gonna be introduced..and which aircrafts its gonna replace..tell me something about it..totally ignorant about this project


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## gogbot

If Dassault and SCHEMA can work with GTRE to help finish the Kaveri



> Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further(that partner would be SCHEMA)



Then the Project goals of the KAveri can finally be achieved.



> The Kaveri is a low-bypass-ratio (BPR) afterburning turbofan engine featuring a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes (IGVs), a three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor with transonic blading, an annular combustion chamber, and cooled single-stage HP and LP turbines. The development model is fitted with an advanced convergent-divergent ("con-di") variable nozzle, but *the GTRE wants to fit production Tejas aircraft with an axisymmetric, multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle to further enhance the LCA's agility*
> 
> The general arrangement of the Kaveri is very similar to other contemporary combat engines, such as the Eurojet EJ200, General Electric F414, and Snecma M88. *At present, the peak turbine inlet temperature is designed to be a little lower than its peers*, but this is to enable the engine to be flat-rated to very high ambient temperatures. *Consequently, the bypass ratio that can presently be supported, even with a modest fan pressure ratio, is only about 0.16:1, which means the engine is a "'leaky' turbojet" like the F404.
> *
> The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. *The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, *which will *permit the Tejas to "supercruise"* (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner). The Kaveri is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13&#37; higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes.



These features are just the cherry on late but good cake.
*To all those critics of the Kaveri, India can just choose the typhoon and get the EJ2000, Which will give the Tejas both super cruise and trust vectoring, with out a shadow of a doubt*.

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## gogbot

An interesting Video about the LCA-Tejas

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## Srinivas

WebMaster said:


> Your understanding of military aviation is zero. Go get a better understanding and then come back.



It is not like that webbie JF 17 is still evolving like LCA . You people have got only the airframe and engines not more than that. You are not still decided on Radar and missiles.


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## Iggy

dez said:


> when actually LCA gonna be introduced..and which aircrafts its gonna replace..tell me something about it..totally ignorant about this project



Dez it will be inducted by 2012 and Its mainly replacing our aging MIG-21's ..currently testing is going on..now we see a substantial increase in flight hours of LCA..I think they are trying to make it operational ASAP

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## MZUBAIR

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> It is not like that webbie JF 17 is still evolving like LCA . You people have got only the airframe and engines not more than that. You are not still decided on Radar and missiles.



Oh man, Pakistan and Chinees Engineers , Scientists still dont know that they have only developed airframe and there is no Radar in the world Called KLJ-7,8 or 10 nither Pakistan never developed H-2, H-4 optical guided bombs. China never made PL-12/SD-20 for JF-17.

Pakistan never made RAAD ALCM missel that can ever be fired from JF-17 airframe.

Only this Indian guy knows JF is an airfame. The world is fool thats y they r intresed to buy JF like Azarbaijan, Egypt, Zimbabve etc.


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## hindesi

seiko said:


> Dez it will be inducted by 2012 and Its mainly replacing our aging MIG-21's ..currently testing is going on..now we see a substantial increase in flight hours of LCA..I think they are trying to make it operations ASAP



true the flight hours have increased significantly.. I've seen it zooming past here in Bangalore quite often


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## Tejas-MkII

*Nod to Rs 8,000cr for production of Tejas*

B.R. Srikanth

Bengaluru

Dec. 15: In a major leg-up for one of the countrys most crucial indigenous defence initiatives, the Centre has sanctioned a massive Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet Tejas for the IAF and Indian Navy.

*The lions share of this outlay, Rs 5,000 crores, will be for the manufacture of the jets for the IAF, while the rest will be for the development of a variant for the Navy, P.S. Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency which coordinates the Light Combat Aircraft programme, told this newspaper. "This is very good encouragement for a homegrown programme, but the challenge ahead is that we must deliver the jets on time. The first of these fighters will join the IAFs fleet early 2011. The Air Force has ordered one squadron (20 fighters), and is in the process of ordering another squadron," he said.*

Official sources said the IAF has committed to the purchase of 140 more jets, for seven squadrons, with more powerful engines. Next year, the LCA programme will cross another milestone with the maiden flight of the naval version.

This variant will be designed to operate from aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the Air Defence Ship.

http://203.197.197.71/presentation/...od-to-rs-8,000cr-for-production-of-tejas.aspx

this link is not opening for me may be for others


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## Tejas-MkII

if 5000 crore for 40 AC then 125 core for each AC... about 25-28 mil $


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1266 Test Flights successfully. (12-Dec-09).

* LCA has completed 1266 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-236,PV2-129,PV3-189,LSP1-54,LSP2-119,PV5-1).
* 236th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
* 119th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
(12-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA


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## shchinese

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1266 Test Flights successfully. (12-Dec-09).
> 
> * LCA has completed 1266 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-236,PV2-129,PV3-189,LSP1-54,LSP2-119,PV5-1).
> * 236th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
> * 119th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
> (12-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA



so? LCA is ready for combat deployment? or LCA is now more tested than ever before?

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## rajeev

shchinese said:


> so? LCA is ready for combat deployment? or LCA is now more tested than ever before?



It is out by the time WS engine problem will be figured out.

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## UchihaCG

rajeev said:


> It is out by the time WS engine problem will be figured out.



why use kaveri.......
the EJ proposal for thrust vectoring engines is much better don't you think.. although kaveri means our first indigenous engine i think EJ is a better option.


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## Iggy

UchihaCG said:


> why use kaveri.......
> the EJ proposal for thrust vectoring engines is much better don't you think.. although kaveri means our first indigenous engine i think EJ is a better option.



Buddy Kaveri will help us self reliant in engine technology also..Agree with EJ is a better option..but remember sanctions by US made our LCA project delay for a decade or something..its better we have indigenous engines also

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## Hulk

UchihaCG said:


> why use kaveri.......
> the EJ proposal for thrust vectoring engines is much better don't you think.. although kaveri means our first indigenous engine i think EJ is a better option.



I will take mid-way, while it is ok to use another engine if kaveri is not ready, we should continue to develop our own.

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## rajeev

UchihaCG said:


> why use kaveri.......
> the EJ proposal for thrust vectoring engines is much better don't you think.. although kaveri means our first indigenous engine i think EJ is a better option.



WS is Chinese engine and is having technical issues just like we are having technical issues with Kaveri. I am just making fun of this stupid Chinese guy. I ignored him for a long time but he kept on writing stupid stuff but unfortunately if we happen to write back the way he does, we might get banned.

I think the forum rules only applies to Indians and Pakistanis. Chinese and Bangladeshi can keep on using abusing words against others and it is more or less ignored. It is ok for a one-off events by a member but if that is the only way they respond, some action should be taken.

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## Dash

This is a nice article in Upasai.com published from Toronto on LCA.
here is the link

India readies its light combat aircraft - upiasia.com

I felt like sharing this. Sorry if its already posted.

Regards
Dash

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## sudhir007

Is it Indian government want to close this lca project as if Kaveri development start with Snecma the development time atleast 3-4 yr and integration time around 2-3 yr so it mean total time is around 8 yr (so lca mk-II come at time of 2017-2018)for mk-II but IAF need this plane urgently for there old replacement of Mig-21 or they r hoping that they replace with bison in 2020. 



> After a series of apprehensions, the indigenously designed &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine, which was meant to power the homegrown &#8216;Tejas&#8217; Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), is back again in the spotlight as the main contender for the LCA.
> 
> India had recently deemed the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine unfit after its on-going flight tests and was on the verge of finalizing either the Eurojet EJ-200 or the General Electric F-414 engines for the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA. However, India has made a turnaround in its decision and intends to go in for a powerful version of the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine to be co-designed by the French firm Snecma.
> 
> The cause for this change of plans is due to the skepticism that India has in acquiring the Eurojet or General Electric engines. India feels that Eurojet and General Electric would not be providing India with critical engine technologies despite the mandatory Transfer of Technology (ToT) in the purchase contract. The tender stipulates that 50 per cent of the technology must be transferred to India. However, there are chances that the international firm may not give the critical high-end technology that would be important for India.
> 
> Defence Ministry sources indicated that India will now co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence. The state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO)&#8217;s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful successor for the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine.
> 
> Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju said that the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine has been underestimated in terms of the benefit it will bring to India. Since large scale research and development has already been invested in the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine, it will be a waste of time and money to put this in the back-burner. He added that the French firm &#8216;Snecma&#8217; are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology and since it is a value-added offer, it will give India better technology than what India would get from ToT from Eurojet or General Electric.
> 
> Defence Ministry officials feel that India will need to take a crucial decision soon since the &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine has already run into lot of delays and cost-overruns. GTRE is positive that the Snecma-GTRE venture will be fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200. It will involve improving from the current &#8216;Kaveri&#8217; engine&#8217;s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) to the 95 KN that the EJ-200 and F-414 currently have.
> India To Revive Kaveri Engine Project | India Defence Online


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1267 Test Flights successfully. (12-Dec-09).

* LCA has completed 1267 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-236,PV2-129,PV3-190,LSP1-54,LSP2-119,PV5-1).
* 236th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
* 119th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 11th Dec 09.
* 190th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 11th Dec 09.

(12-Dec-09)Tejas-LCA


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## Dash

sudhir007 said:


> Is it Indian government want to close this lca project as if Kaveri development start with Snecma the development time atleast 3-4 yr and integration time around 2-3 yr so it mean total time is around 8 yr (so lca mk-II come at time of 2017-2018)for mk-II but IAF need this plane urgently for there old replacement of Mig-21 or they r hoping that they replace with bison in 2020.



Thank u for that information Sudhir.
So it does look like what I was thinking was almost what GOI is in distrust with the amount of tech transfer. which is correct. However I will say if they take this dicision not to select a foreign engine for LCA then it would be another blunder to this already delayed program. and moreover when you know you are buying only 80-90 engines, what the worry on tech transfer. You know that you are developing the Kaveri with Snecma and its not a big deal if you dont get a full TOT on those engines. Just make the birds FLY!!! I hope they dont take such a decision (thinking no decision has been taken and this could be just a thought).


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## yashraj

Dash said:


> Thank u for that information Sudhir.
> So it does look like what I was thinking was almost what GOI is in distrust with the amount of tech transfer. which is correct. However I will say if they take this dicision not to select a foreign engine for LCA then it would be another blunder to this already delayed program. and moreover when you know you are buying only 80-90 engines, what the worry on tech transfer. You know that you are developing the Kaveri with Snecma and its not a big deal if you dont get a full TOT on those engines. Just make the birds FLY!!! I hope they dont take such a decision (thinking no decision has been taken and this could be just a thought).



GOI is " DEVELOPING" Our KAVERI yaar..........
That's nothing wrong in it...

As We know that We are Selecting F 18 for MMCA. and so we are going to use GE141 Engine(99) for our LCA Mark-2.

And GOI is just taking stappes towards Self relience for developing Kaveri engine...........

That' s Actually . dont u think?


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## Dash

yashraj said:


> GOI is " DEVELOPING" Our KAVERI yaar..........
> That's nothing wrong in it...
> 
> As We know that We are Selecting F 18 for MMCA. and so we are going to use GE141 Engine(99) for our LCA Mark-2.
> 
> And GOI is just taking stappes towards Self relience for developing Kaveri engine...........
> 
> That' s Actually . dont u think?



Hi Yashraj-
The the report published and posted by Sudhir says that they are planning to cancel the tender for EJ-2000 and F-414 engine and trying develp kaveri to induct kaveri on MK2. IMO this is not a great idea and this would hamper our Squadron strength.

To be healthy as an Airforce we need to have 42 squadrons and we are understrength now operating with 39 squadrons.Developing and implimenting Kaveri will take a good 8 yeras and this delay in induction in Tajs MK2 will only deplete our strength. So if they choose to cancel the engine procurement of these two types, IAF which is not that interested in MK1 and wants Tejas MK2 will not be able to induct it for good 10 years. and you know what 10 years mean.

Developing Kaveri is one thing which is best!....but keeping national security and best interests of IAF at the same time is better than best.
These are parallel thinkings and neither can be compromised.


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## Hulk

Dude there is some problem in that report, it is not happening for sure, we might continue development with Kaveri but we will not use it for LCA. I think the projects got delinked long back.


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## stax

indianrabbit said:


> Dude there is some problem in that report, it is not happening for sure, we might continue development with Kaveri but we will not use it for LCA. I think the projects got delinked long back.



It's a bad news for Kaveri! 
Although our WS10A has met problems, we'll still use them on J11B!


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## yashraj

There is some misunderstanding.......

First of all we are going to get 99 GE 414 for the LCA mark-2.
and rest of will be our KAVERI.........

And we are also going to use Kaveri for our MCA. form 2015 onwards.......

Are we clear now?


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## gogbot

stax said:


> It's a bad news for Kaveri!
> Although our WS10A has met problems, we'll still use them on J11B!





indianrabbit said:


> Dude there is some problem in that report, it is not happening for sure, we might continue development with Kaveri but we will not use it for LCA. I think the projects got delinked long back.



The Projects were De-linked due to Continuing delays in In its development. This meant the LCA could be inducted with foreign engines instead of the Kaveri as originally planned.

The Project to make an Indigenous engine is still very much active, we numerous applications all ready planned and waiting


> Applications
> 
> Plans are also already under way for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kaveri core, named as Kabini.
> 
> 
> * GTX-35VS Kaveri:
> o HAL Tejas (planned for production models)
> o HAL Medium Combat Aircraft (conceptual)
> o Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
> 
> * Derivatives:
> 
> o The Indian government plans to adapt and further develop the Kaveri engine design and technology to create a gas-turbine powerplant for armoured fighting vehicles such as the Arjun tank.
> 
> o Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT), a recently developed derivative of the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for ships.




There is even a Proposal by SCHEMA and Dassault that



> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF



If a 90KN+ KAveri engine can be made.
The IAF would most likely install it on as Many platforms as possible.

This engine represents a huge leap in Indigenous production capability.
This fact is lost to no one in the MOD.

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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> GOI is " DEVELOPING" Our KAVERI yaar..........
> That's nothing wrong in it...
> 
> As We know that We are Selecting F 18 for MMCA. and so we are going to use GE141 Engine(99) for our LCA Mark-2.
> 
> And GOI is just taking stappes towards Self relience for developing Kaveri engine...........
> 
> That' s Actually . dont u think?



yash how will you know that ge414 select for mk-2 beside iaf want ej200(but as per quotation it is very expansive to buy cost come around $10 million per unit it will raise the total cost of lca but if we select as per your statement ge414 it come half of the cost of ej and for me it is better coze it has extra thrust around 98kn and already proven in sea atmosphere which ej dnt so it mean it will take time and we have to bear the extra amount of development cost which is not good coze we have already in the process for developing kavari so why we go for..... . that) 



> First of all we are going to get 99 GE 414 for the LCA mark-2.
> and rest of will be our KAVERI.........
> 
> And we are also going to use Kaveri for our MCA. form 2015 onwards....


 it is better to buy 99 import engine and after that start with kaveri coze iaf need around 250 lca to replace mig-21


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## sudhir007

http://www.drdo.com/dpi/ADA.pdf

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## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> yash how will you know that ge414 select for mk-2 beside iaf want ej200(but as per quotation it is very expansive to buy cost come around $10 million per unit it will raise the total cost of lca but if we select as per your statement ge414 it come half of the cost of ej and for me it is better coze it has extra thrust around 98kn and already proven in sea atmosphere which ej dnt so it mean it will take time and we have to bear the extra amount of development cost which is not good coze we have already in the process for developing kavari so why we go for..... . that)
> 
> it is better to buy 99 import engine and after that start with kaveri coze iaf need around 250 lca to replace mig-21



There are few advantage of buying 99 GE414 engine....

1) We are already using GE 404 Engine... and GE 414 is vary similar in size and shape of GE 404 engine so we required vary few structural changes, so less time and cost.

2) We can use same facility for maintance and we don't required any othe technical asistance, so again it reduce time and cost.

3) It gives higer trust than EF engine, so batter supercruse and handling.

4) And it's Almost HALF the cost of EF engine

5) One of my friend who is working in Delhi(Procurment department in the Defence) told me that right now F18 is winning and it's Winning By miles. and as you it's using GE 414 Engine.

6) So for 200 F 18 we required some 450 engines for that(50 Extra for quick replase ment and for spairs) and 99 engine for our 60 Tejas mark-2.

If we consider above all the points then GE 414 is Best chose for us and It will reduce Cost and Time by Atlist 75%. and that's HUGE

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## sudhir007

> 3) It gives higer trust than EF engine, so batter supercruse and handling.


 they are not offering supercurse


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## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> they are not offering supercurse



Sorry my bad.......

By the way sudhir how any plane can achive super cruse?


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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> Sorry my bad.......
> 
> By the way sudhir how any plane can achive super cruse?


when it pass mach 1 speed without using after burner 

currently only 3 F/a in the world which has this facility

1. F-22 Raptor 1.6 mach
2. Euro fighter Typhoon 1.3 mach
3. Gripen NG 1.1mach
4. Su-35BM with 117s engine (still in testing mode)

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## RIYAZ

guys can any one tell me what's the status of kaveri engine


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## stax

I heard that LCA 's engine has not determined by now. I'm wondering if LCA change its engines, do the engineers have to change origianl design and test again? Do these engines have the same shape?


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## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> when it pass mach 1 speed without using after burner
> 
> currently only 3 F/a in the world which has this facility
> 
> 1. F-22 Raptor 1.6 mach
> 2. Euro fighter Typhoon 1.3 mach
> 3. Gripen NG 1.1mach
> 4. Su-35BM with 117s engine (still in testing mode)



I know What is supercruse.

I know how any plane can cross Mach 1 without use of After burner..
I mean how any engine can do that? is it It's Primary compression ratio of Temp of outlet of engine or it's dry trust to weight ratio ....


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## gogbot

yashraj said:


> I know What is supercruse.
> 
> I know how any plane can cross Mach 1 without use of After burner..
> I mean how any engine can do that? is it It's Primary compression ratio of Temp of outlet of engine or it's dry trust to weight ratio ....



I think its a combination of both actually.



> The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise"



Obviously that would give the engine the Ability to super cruise based on the Trust to weight ratio with the Platform in question


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## T-50

kavari problem is more of designing blades and material, Indian Babu's refused to buy Single Crystal Blade Technology offered by Russians, not regretting it. other problem is material, need to find different metal to with stand high temp and pressure....


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## stax

T-50 said:


> kavari problem is more of designing blades and material, Indian Babu's refused to buy Single Crystal Blade Technology offered by Russians, not regretting it. other problem is material, need to find different metal to with stand high temp and pressure....



Which generation Single Crystal will Kavari use? As I know, there are 5 generations Single Crystal.


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## gogbot

stax said:


> Which generation Single Crystal will Kavari use? As I know, there are 5 generations Single Crystal.



I don't believe SC blades are still being used



k7x said:


> found this interesting article
> 
> http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2009.pdf
> 
> *"Ceramic Cores for Kaveri Engine Aerofoil
> Castings: Through sustained research and
> development efforts at DMRL, a viable
> process based on Ceramic Injection Moulding
> has been developed. The capability of the
> shaping process is demonstrated by making
> highly complex and intricate ceramic cores
> required for making the five critical Kaveri
> gas turbine engine blades and vanes. These
> cores meet the stringent dimensional and
> other quality requirements needed for their
> use in the investment casting components.
> Currently, this process is being extended to
> produce cores for land based turbine blades,
> a spin-off benefit for civilian applications."
> 
> 
> 
> "High Pressure Turbine (HPT) Blade for
> Adour Engine: Vacuum investment casting
> technology has been established for
> production of intricate, hollow castings,
> meeting the stringent requirements of Kaveri
> engine. This indigenous technology has
> successfully been extended to produce
> directionally solidified hollow HPT blades
> for Adour engine, in association with HAL.
> Efforts are on to produce ceramic cores, the
> only component procured from a foreign
> source, also in-house. This technology will
> soon be transferred to HAL, Koraput for
> commercial production."*
> 
> 
> every one is heading towards Ceramic Composite matrix ) But after reading it ; India is very much inline with others.

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## Red Dwarf

Why didn't we used Russian engines for LCA ?. What was the reason to build LCA around a GE engine ?.


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## Chanakyaa

Red Dwarf said:


> Why didn't we used Russian engines for LCA ?. What was the reason to build LCA around a GE engine ?.



Actually this has been an unpublicized consideration.



> India May Use Russian Engines For LCA
> 
> India is seriously considering to use the Russian 33/RD-33MK engines for the homegrown Light Combat Aircraft, as it already used the Indian Air Force [IAF] fleet of MiG-29 aircraft.
> 
> A high level Indian military delegation comprising of Defence Production secretary and Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Ashok Nayak recently visited a Russian Chernyshev plant where RD-33/RD-33MK engines for MiG-29K and MiG-35 are being manufactured.
> 
> As per an agreement signed between India and Russia, the license production of RD-33 Se.3 engine will happen in India as well as transfer of technology. Officials said that only the first 20 to 40 aircraft will be manufactured with imported of-the-shelf GE-404 engines.
> 
> The RD-33 MK engine has been deemed unique since it operates well on any AoA (angle of attack).
> 
> India would benefit if it chooses the RD-33MK engine, said a senior Indian Air force official, adding that this is because of the unification it will receive because of the common engine logistics it will achieve in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), MiG-29, MiG-29 MK and possibly the MiG-35. The serial production line for RD-33 class engine is already under construction in India. And after India pays transfer of technology amount for the RD-33 ser. 3 engine, it will not have to pay a double sum for the RD-33 MK engine.
> 
> The RD-33 series 3 is an upgraded version of the RD-33 powerful RD-33 turbofan engine with thrust vectoring for MiG family fighters. The engine provides superior maneuverability and enhances the fighters performance in close air engagements.
> 
> In 2005, Russia signed a $250 million deal with India to modernize engines for the MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. According to the terms of the deal, HAL will make 120 RD-33 series 3 jet engines at its Koraput plant for the upgrade of MiG-29 fighters. The contract will enable HAL to master the assembly of the RD-33 jet engines and use the experience in the assembly of next generation jet engines.
> 
> As for the delays in the development of fully indigenous Kaveri engine for HALs LCA fighter and other IAF aircraft, it is only forcing India to keep an eye out for a powerful engine for upgrading LCA. The currently installed GE404 doesnt fulfill the IAF specification and is not powerful enough for Navy LCA variant. The other engines in the market that fit the bill are the American GE414, British-EU EJ200 and Russian RD-33MK who stand a chance to be chosen as the LCA mark 2 engine solution till the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready.



Also,



> "RD-33MK variant with the bottom gear placement and a thrust vectoring nozzle (RD-133). Can be upgraded up to 10 t (98 kN) thrust in near future without changing the engine core. The Russian obligation to not sell TVN for China can be obtained, so the advantage of Tejas mk.2 engine (if chosen) can be visible and persuasive for public. The KLIVT all aspect TVN can be especially worth for the carrier based Tejas' variant now actively developed by HAL. The 8.3 t RD-33 ser.3 variant of the engine is already licensioned and ToTed in India, so only a minimal addition will be needed for RD-33MK production in India."
> 
> If RD-33MK chosen as a transitional engine for Tejas LCA (till Kavery ready), it's would be logically to use the Russian expertize for accelerated integration it into the redesigned LCA airframe. In most successful scenario we can reckon even a joint venture for accelerated LCA export for third countries with the Russian engine. This could have the framework of Brahmos program, when one side gives its almost ready project for joint revision and export, but keeping independence in domestic production.

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## Red Dwarf

XiNiX, all the info you provided are recent developments. My question was why didn't we created our LCA around a Russian engine in the first place. Why we decided to use an American engine instead of a Russian one during its design phase. Was there any problems existed at that time or the design team agreed on GE engine is more suitable than Russian one.


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## haawk

^^^^^the reason we didnt base our LCA around a russian engine was because we wanted our own engine(kaveri)......so since the kaveri is underpowered we had to go for the ge404


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## Red Dwarf

haawk said:


> ^^^^^the reason we didnt base our LCA around a russian engine was because we wanted our own engine(kaveri)......so since the kaveri is underpowered we had to go for the ge404



If that was the case, then i was wrong. I thought that Kaveri project was started after LCA and not alongside of it.


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## Hulk

Red Dwarf said:


> If that was the case, then i was wrong. I thought that Kaveri project was started after LCA and not alongside of it.



It is because US engines are better, simple as that. Buying a complete plane from US is a risk, but just engine is fine.


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## gogbot

indianrabbit said:


> It is because US engines are better, simple as that. Buying a complete plane from US is a risk, but just engine is fine.



This was not the case.



> initially, it had been decided to equip the prototype aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine. Simulataneously, in 1986, a parallel programme to develop an indigenous powerplant was also launched. Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri", was expected to replace the F404 on all production aircraft. However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by technical difficulties.
> 
> Continued development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated General Electric F404, F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production LSP aircraft and two naval prototypes. The ADA awarded General Electric a US$105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 -IN20 engines, delivery of which began in 2006.
> 
> In Feb 2007, HAL ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Before the subsequent order, F404-GE-IN20 was trial-installed in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as part of final evaluations toward flight-testing, scheduled for mid-2007. The F404-GE-IN20 engine generated more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) uninstalled thrust and completed 330 hours of Accelerated Mission testing, equivalent of 1,000 hours of flight operation. The -IN20 succeeds -F2J3 development engines used for nearly 600 flights, cumulatively covering eight engines.
> 
> In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected.The ADA plans to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,00023,000 lbf) range. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414.

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## AVIAN

One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.


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## gogbot

AVIAN said:


> One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.



That's why its all the more Important to get The KAveri


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## Chanakyaa

AVIAN said:


> One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.



Then as we all are aware we had just ONE source of such Tech - USSR.

Now things have changed there are a variety of options with us, they know if they wont deliver somebody else will - thanks to our foreign relations.

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## UchihaCG

XiNiX said:


> Then as we all are aware we had just ONE source of such Tech - USSR.
> 
> Now things have changed there are a variety of options with us, they know if they wont deliver somebody else will - thanks to our foreign relations.



I'll tell you though we have more option now..... we can't trust US/Europe. Russians are still our best option no matter what.

F-18 did you see the sanctions US has placed on it's radar? I also remember reading about some agreement that US wants India to sign....... allowing it's systems to communicate/check American equipment sold to India.


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## antartica

The LCA project has been amusingly delayed . Going through this thread and thru the internet , I feel there have been some unnecessary delays from the Govt of India and a lot due to the restrictions in place after the nuke tests in late 90's . 

This is very strange that once the project was presented in 1983 why the it didn't got clearance till early 90;s . 

But , one thing which I noticed that this project started with a plan to build a 2nd generation aircraft , but with time and thanks to the stubbornness of the Indian Airforce by not accepting anything below the latest standards , this project is now at a stage that LCA which would be rolled out in near future would be a 4+ generation aircraft with a far more advanced and latest features . HAL should thank IAF that due to which they would be rolling out a beast , as they compared to what they were planning to . 

Best of luck to HAL for LCA and not to mention PAF for their JF series aircraft's .

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## gogbot

antartica said:


> But , one thing which I noticed that this project started with a plan to build a 2nd generation aircraft , but with time and thanks to the stubbornness of the Indian Airforce by not accepting anything below the latest standards , this project is now at a stage that LCA which would be rolled out in near future would be a 4+ generation aircraft with a far more advanced and latest features . HAL should thank IAF that due to which they would be rolling out a beast , as they compared to what they were planning to .
> .



No, no This was never the case.

The plan from the very start was to create a 4th gen fighter.



> The LCA programme was launched in 1983 for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (NATO reporting name 'Fishbed') fighters. The MiG-21 has been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s, but the initial examples were nearly 20 years old by 1983. The "Long Term Re-Equipment Plan 1981" noted that the MiG-21s would be approaching the end of their service lives by the mid-1990s, and that by 1995 the IAF would lack 40&#37; of the aircraft needed to fill its projected force structure requirements.
> 
> The IAF expressed doubt that India possessed sufficient technological infrastructure to support such an ambitious project.
> A governmental review committee was formed in May 1989 which reported out a general view that Indian infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced sufficiently in most areas to undertake the project.The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small delta-winged machine with "relaxed static stability" (RSS) to enhance maneuverability performance.Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorized until April 1993, with significant work on FSED Phase 1 commencing in June. The first technology demonstrator, TD-1, was rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998,
> 
> The LCA programme's other main objective was to serve as the vehicle for an across-the-board advancement of India's domestic aerospace industry.[12] Soon after gaining independence in 1947, Indian leaders established an ambitious national objective of attaining self-reliance in aviation and other strategic industries. The value of the aerospace "self-reliance" initiative is not simply the production of an aircraft, but also the building of a local industry capable of creating state-of-the-art products with commercial spin-offs for a global market. The LCA program was intended in part to further expand and advance India's indigenous aerospace capabilities across the broadest range of modern aviation technologies.
> 
> To better accomplish these goals, the government chose to take a different management approach, and in 1984 established the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme. Although the Tejas is most often described as a product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), responsibility for the development of the Tejas actually belongs to ADA, a national consortium of over 100 defence laboratories, industrial organisations, and academic institutions with HAL being the principal contractor.[14] The ADA formally falls under the auspices of the Indian Defence Ministry's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include indigenous development of the three most sophisticated &#8212; and hence most challenging &#8212; systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine.[15] Although India has had a policy of strictly limiting foreign participation in the LCA programme, these are the only major LCA systems on which the ADA has had to invite significant foreign technological assistance and consultancy. Moreover, the engine and radar are also the only major systems for which the ADA has seriously considered substituting foreign equipment, albeit as an interim measure on the initial LCA aircraft where needed to allow more time for the full development of the indigenous versions &#8212; as has been the case with the LCA's Kaveri powerplant.
> 
> The ambitiousness of the LCA programme in terms of pursuing self-reliance in aviation technologies is illustrated by the fact that out of a total of 35 major avionics components and line-replaceable units (LRUs), only three involve foreign systems. These are the multi-function displays (MFDs) by Sextant (France) and Elbit (Israel), the helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS) cueing system by Elbit, and the laser pod supplied by Rafael (Israel). However, even among these three, when the LCA reaches the production stage, the MFDs are expected to be supplied by Indian companies. A few other important items of equipment (such as the Martin-Baker ejection seat) have been imported. As a consequence of the embargo imposed on India after its nuclear weapons tests in May 1998, many items originally planned to be imported &#8212; like the landing gear &#8212; were instead developed indigenously .
> 
> Of the five critical technologies the ADA identified at the beginning of the LCA programme as needing to be mastered for India to be able to design and build a "completely indigenous" fighter, two have been entirely successful: the development and manufacture of advanced carbon-fibre composite (CFC) structures and skins (especially on the order of the size of a wing) and a modern "glass cockpit." In fact, ADA has had a profitable commercial spin-off in its Autolay integrated automated software system for the design and development of 3-D laminated composite elements (which has been licensed to both Airbus and Infosys). These successes have gone mostly unnoticed in the shadow of the problems encountered with the other three key technology initiatives. Nonetheless, as a result of the accomplishments of India's domestic industries, presently about 70% of the components in LCA are manufactured in India and the dependence on imported components used would be progressively reduced in the coming years



In fact the IAF was the one that held the LCA back. DRDO/HAL wanted to do more. IAF was not willing to fund it them selves.and The first set of requirements were rather modest. Once the project got way and they saw potential they then increased the IAF requirements . and took a more active intrest in everything.

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## Hulk

The Hindu : National : DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project
BANGALORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been given the go-ahead by the government to take up an offer of French firm Snecma to &#8216;partner&#8217; with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for jointly developing the Kaveri aero engine.

Senior GTRE officials told The Hindu that talks with Snecma &#8220;could start early next year.&#8221; The Kaveri&#8217;s eventual user, the Indian Air Force now appears to have softened its opposition to the tie-up, they said.

The Rs. 2,839-crore Kaveri engine programme was launched in 1989, specifically to power the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, now under development at the DRDO&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). In 2005, the GTRE indicated that it would not be able to develop the Kaveri engine on its own.

Interestingly, the government&#8217;s nod, which is expected to cost the exchequer at least Rs 1,000 crore, comes nine months after a team, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran and comprising officials from the ADA, the IAF and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, submitted a report that stated that an engine developed jointly by Snecma and the GTRE would not meet the IAF&#8217;s performance requirements. The IAF also wanted the Kaveri project delinked from Tejas programme.

According to informed sources, members of the Matheswaran team were critical of the French passing off their existing and fully developed &#8216;Eco&#8217; engine core. This, the team felt, would not give India the engine core design knowledge or even control over it. It also pointed out that the design technology being handed out would take years to come.

Based on the report, the French offer was put on the backburner with even officials from Snecma stating that the &#8220;chapter was closed.&#8221; But the IAF for reasons not yet clear, appear to have reversed its stand.

Snecma, which indicated that an engine run of at least 250 is required to make their offer economically viable, agrees that an existing core would be at the heart of the Snecma &#8211; GTRE Kaveri engine.

It, however, denies it would take years for handing over the design technology. It will take at least five years before the first production engine comes out.

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: &#8220;Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.&#8221;

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of &#8220;the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF&#8217;s requirements.&#8221;

The GTRE hopes to use the Snecma &#8211; GTRE Kaveri to replace the GE F404 (IN20) engine that will fly two squadrons of the Tejas.

If all goes well the Snecma-GTRE tie-up could be formalised during the French President Nicolas Sarkozy&#8217;s planned visit to India in March &#8211;April 2010.


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## Hulk

Whatever it takes we should get this done.


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## sudhir007

*Not Abandoned N-Tejas yet IDRW.ORG*

Recently Indian Navy issued Request for information (RFI) for the purchase of undisclosed numbers of Multi role Fighter which it wants to purchase for its Second Indigenous Aircraft carrier which will be built in India and will join Indian Navy by 2018. In December Mig-29K started arriving in India in semi -knocked down condition which was purchased for INS Vikramaditya, reports suggests that Indian Navy may order more Mig-29K for First Indigenous Aircraft carrier also .But recent development of purchase of second line of New Naval Fighter jet has been blamed in largely blamed by many sections of media on delays faced by the countries Indigenous Naval Tejas Project. Highly placed source based in Goa&#8217;s Naval Air Wing has confirmed (lca-tejas.org) that Indian Navy has not abandoned Naval Variant of Tejas yet and are actually very much interested in the project its self, they has been confirmation that Navy is interested in getting N-Tejas with High powered engines which Air force wants for Tejas MK-II rather then the Currently powered engines of GE. Indian Navy wants to maintain around 150 Naval Fighter aircrafts by 2020 for Carrier and Land Based operations, Navy is no hurry in Procurement of Naval Tejas since India&#8217;s first Indigenous Aircraft carrier will be operational only by 2014 at best and Navy want best of the Tejas Project .Navy also will be building a Carrier type deck close to Naval Base INS Hansa where Carrier takeoff and landing will be simulated for Training of Future pilots of Indian Navy , First Prototype of NP-1 a Naval Tejas will make to air by end of 2010 and will also be based in INS Hansa for carrying out all necessary test to get clearance for Carrier operations , NP-1 will have design similarities with recently test flown PV-5 which is a Air force Trainer variant .


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## sancho

yashraj said:


> There are few advantage of buying 99 GE414 engine....
> 
> 1) We are already using GE 404 Engine... and GE 414 is vary similar in size and shape of GE 404 engine so we required vary few structural changes, so less time and *cost*.
> 
> 2) We can use same facility for maintance and we don't required any othe technical asistance, so again it reduce time and *cost*.
> 
> 3) It gives higer trust than EF engine, so batter supercruse and handling.
> 
> 4) And it's Almost HALF the *cost* of EF engine...



Your main argument is that GE 414 is the best from the cost point of view and I agree with you on that, but it is for sure not the best engine!

1) GE 414 has a similar size like the GE404 and won't need much changes *inside* the LCA, but the higher thrust engine will need bigger air intakes (see difference of F18 Hornet and Super Hornet)! That means that the airframe of the LCA must be redesigned, which might causes much more problems and delays.
EJ 200 on the other side is smaller in size and is EADS officials said it don't need airframe changes!

2) Anonther major point is the weight! LCA is already suffering from overweight and GE 414 is said to be heavier than the EJ 200 (some sources say around 100Kg), which means the empty weight will be a problem again.

3) Thrust! GE 414 has an afterburner thrust of 98 kN, EJ 200 a thrust of 90kN. Boeing is offically offering the GE414 EPEwith up to 20% more thrust, but that engine is not ready! It will only be developed if an export customer want it, what of course means shared funding. Given the fact that MoD rejected Snecmas offer of co-developing an 90kN engine for LCA, because they wanted a ready and proven engine now, it is very unlikely that they will go for a development of the US engine.
EJ 200 might have slightly less thrust, but is also officially offered with an improvement in this field (95+kN are often speculated in the media) and this improvement will be available in the new EF tranche 3 too, so no new development is needed!

4) TVC! EJ 200 is officially offered with TVC for LCA, a feature that could be a big advantage for LCA in terms of maneuverability. It is under development for nearly a decade now with EJ 200 and will also be available in the new EF Tranche 3. 
GE had developed similar techs too, but nothing entered, or will enter operational status, so they can't offer any comparable advantage!

5) ToT! EJ200 is officially offered with the transfer of Key technologies, this will be a great benefit for our indigenous industrie, to improve our capabilities for any future projects.
ToT of US techs is always limited by US law, doubtful that they will be ready to provide us with similar techs like the Europeans would.

To sum it up, of course EJ 200 means more costs, but in return we will get the clearly best engine for LCA with similar thrust, less weight and TVC. It will mean less changes and redesigns at LCA, so no further delays and we will benefit for future engine projects via ToT. 
Imo that all is worth the more money!

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## RPK

*Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA*


By vivek raghuvanshi 
Published: 4 Jan 2010 13:22 


NEW DELHI - Eurojet of Germany has offered India aircraft engine technology to power India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2 version.

*Indian Defence Ministry sources said the single crystal turbine blade technology, originally denied to Indian scientists, has been offered to India by Eurojet via the EJ200 engine. *The EJ200 is competing with the General Electric GE 414 to power the LCA.


Last year, India's Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the LCA, floated a request for proposals to GE and Eurojet. 

Meanwhile, EADS, whose Eurofighter aircraft is also competing for India's $10 billion program to purchase 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft, has offered thrust-vectoring technology. 

Indian Defence Ministry sources said the offer by Eurojet and EADS were received simultaneously last month.

*An EADS executive claimed that equipping the twin-engine Typhoon's engines with thrust vectoring nozzles could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7 percent*.



Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA - Defense News


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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> *Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA*
> 
> 
> By vivek raghuvanshi
> Published: 4 Jan 2010 13:22
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI - Eurojet of Germany has offered India aircraft engine technology to power India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2 version.
> 
> *Indian Defence Ministry sources said the single crystal turbine blade technology, originally denied to Indian scientists, has been offered to India by Eurojet via the EJ200 engine. *The EJ200 is competing with the General Electric GE 414 to power the LCA.
> 
> 
> Last year, India's Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the LCA, floated a request for proposals to GE and Eurojet.
> 
> Meanwhile, EADS, whose Eurofighter aircraft is also competing for India's $10 billion program to purchase 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft, has offered thrust-vectoring technology.
> 
> Indian Defence Ministry sources said the offer by Eurojet and EADS were received simultaneously last month.
> 
> *An EADS executive claimed that equipping the twin-engine Typhoon's engines with thrust vectoring nozzles could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7 percent*.
> 
> 
> 
> Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA - Defense News



Is'nt there a dead line for selection.

When will we find out which engine is powering the LCA mk-2


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## Red Dwarf

What is the real problem of Kaveri ?. Are you people sure that Kaveri is not going to power LCA mk2(Even with French help).


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## sudhir007

gogbot said:


> Is'nt there a dead line for selection.
> 
> When will we find out which engine is powering the LCA mk-2



I think the selection date is around march 2010


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## gogbot

Red Dwarf said:


> What is the real problem of Kaveri ?. Are you people sure that Kaveri is not going to power LCA mk2(Even with French help).



Nope we are making a new engine based on the kaveri with the french

That has 4 year development time frame. So it wont be production ready by 2014


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## RPK

Red Dwarf said:


> What is the real problem of Kaveri ?. Are you people sure that Kaveri is not going to power LCA mk2(Even with French help).



good news:

Kill vehicle, a critical aspect: Saraswat
.
.
.
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia
.
.


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## aanshu001

inthian ho gayi intjar ki...aayi na kuch khabar mere pyaar (engien) ki......muje (LCA) hai yakien uduoon ka kabhi....leking wajah kya hui ....intjar ki.


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## BATMAN

rpraveenkum said:


> *Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA*
> 
> 
> By vivek raghuvanshi
> Published: 4 Jan 2010 13:22
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI - Eurojet of Germany has offered India aircraft engine technology to power India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2 version.
> 
> *Indian Defence Ministry sources said the single crystal turbine blade technology, originally denied to Indian scientists, has been offered to India by Eurojet via the EJ200 engine. *The EJ200 is competing with the General Electric GE 414 to power the LCA.
> 
> 
> Last year, India's Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the LCA, floated a request for proposals to GE and Eurojet.
> 
> Meanwhile, EADS, whose Eurofighter aircraft is also competing for India's $10 billion program to purchase 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft, has offered thrust-vectoring technology.
> 
> Indian Defence Ministry sources said the offer by Eurojet and EADS were received simultaneously last month.
> 
> *An EADS executive claimed that equipping the twin-engine Typhoon's engines with thrust vectoring nozzles could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7 percent*.
> 
> 
> 
> Eurojet Bolsters Engine Offer for India's LCA - Defense News



vivek raghuvenshi's post has been rejected by indian members in past.


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## sudhir007

*Naval version of Tejas under water as decisions stay pending*

Naval version of Tejas under water as decisions stay pending - dnaindia.com

The naval version of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), is stuck in a limbo due to delay in decision-making, pushing the project 3-4 years behind schedule.

An official close to programme, who did not want to be named, said that despite a planned sanction of over Rs 600 crore by the Indian Navy to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design and development of the carrier-borne LCA, the project is languishing &#8220;due to delays in decisions by the authorities concerned.&#8221;

&#8220;It&#8217;s been more than a year since foreign aircraft-makers have responded to the request for proposal (RFP) of DRDO&#8217;s aeronautical development agency (ADA) for the naval variant of Tejas, but ADA has yet to take a decision on selection of one of them,&#8221; said the official.

The aircraft vendors who responded to the RFP include Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG. They will help ADA to carry out the feasibility study and modify the fighter.

Apparently, development of the aircraft is getting delayed because the L1 (lowest tender) identified by ADA &#8212; Lockheed Martin &#8212; does not have the approvals and licenses to carry out the &#8220;full gambit of work identified.&#8221; Also, according to an insider, there were many gaps in the proposal submitted by Lockheed.

&#8220;Owing to these shortcomings, which had emerged after discussions with the L1 (Lockheed), additional time (six months) was granted to them for obtaining the necessary approvals (from the US government) and revising the area of work so as to cover all the aspects,&#8221; said the source.

That period lapsed in September 2009, but the government has not approached the second lowest bidder as stated in the existing rules.

&#8220;Normally, only a period of 60- 90 days is given but in this case, initially a period of two months was granted verbally, followed up by another three months. It is not clear as to what ADA plans to do now or who is bearing the cost of this delay,&#8221; said the source.

When contacted, P S Subramanyam, programme director at ADA, said he could not provide details on the bidding process of the project as it was &#8220;classified information.&#8221;

&#8220;It (RFP) is still under consideration and the project is going on,&#8221; Subramanyam told DNA.

Another industry source, who did not want to be named, said the LCA project of the Indian Navy has been put on the backburner for now as there was no urgent requirement for it.

&#8220;They (the navy) are trying to get proven aircraft instead of concentrating on an experimental aircraft,&#8221; he said.

Meanwhile, the navy has floated a request for information (RFI) to global aircraft manufacturers for new generation multi-role combat aircraft to be decked on its Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, which has been renamed INS Vikramaditya, or the INS Viraat.

Currently, the Indian Navy fleet consists of Russian MiG 29K and the British vintage Sea Harrier. It has already received four of the MiG29K and will take delivery of 18 others over the next few years.


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## RPK

sorry for posting old article it will help debulk some myth abt LCA

domain-b.com : AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam

*AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam news* 

06 February 2009 




From 1983, when an indigenous fighter development programme was launched with an attempt to develop second generation technologies, to 2008 when the programme has successfully developed 4+ generation technologies the LCA Tejas has come a long way, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam.

What are the major state-of-the-art aircraft technologies used on the LCA?


View video: PS Subramanyam 

To begin with, I'd like to take you back to 1983 when the programme began with the attempt to develop second generation technologies. The whole world then was developing fourth generation technologies. There was a gap of almost two generations of technologies. This is what we have overcome with this particular LCA programme. 


When we talk about state-of-art technologies in the LCA, we are talking about state-of-the-art technologies related to unstable aerodynamics based aircraft, where the basic airframe is unstable. We have to make it stable by what we call instant fly-by-wire flight control systems, which is also a unique technology - we are only the fourth or fifth country in the world to have developed this digital technology. 
Another technology that has been developed for the programme is called digital avionics technology, or a glass cockpit. 

Yet another technology where we have really bridged the gap is in the area of composites. 

I have mentioned these four state-of-the-art technologies because when we started the programme many foreign consultants on the programme said this country cannot catch up with these technologies at this point and suggested we go back to older technologies. It was then that Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, who was the director general of the organisation, who said no. He told us he had confidence in us and that we could go ahead with developing these technologies. 

We did that and today we have arrived - these technologies are now in use with the two Technology Demonstrator aircraft - TD1 and TD2. 

We have gone over the hump and today we are at the 4+ generation of technologies. In these particular aircraft all electronic and mechanical systems are controlled by computers. 

Even today we don't have such functional systems as digital avionics, glass cockpit and other related technologies in the Indian Air Force. 

Another state-of-the-art feature in these technologies is that all the microprocessors used in our systems are only 12-16 months old - since we have deployed the open system architecture. With such a concept we can catch up with any evolution in electronics and keep on changing the hardware, as with computers. 

So all the microprocessors used in the system are only 12-16 months old . That's the kind of currency we have got.

All sensors used in our aircraft are state-of-the-art - whether it is the navigation systems, the helmet mounted system, or what we call the day-night attack sensor. If you look at the Indian Air force, even they have picked up the system only a year or so ago. 

Most of the things we use, even the materials, are state-of-the-art and in terms of technology this aircraft is going to be current even after 10 years.

What are the derivatives of LCA?

Seeing the performance of the Technology Demonstrators the Indian Navy and air force have now gained confidence in the aircraft &#8211; a confidence that they can move on to higher derivatives of the aircraft. 

First, in March 2003, the Navy came forward with an order for a naval variant of the aircraft and decided to fund it. 

Subsequently, the air force, realising that there was inadequacy of thrust in the aircraft, asked for a higher derivative of the aircraft with a new engine in the 90 tonnes class. This will be a Mark 2 version of the aircraft and will boast of new electronic warfare tools, reduced weight and improved performance.

The navy has also asked for a Mark 2 variant which will use a very small distance for take off and landing from an aircraft carrier. It will land with an arrestor hook. So, almost four new derivatives are planned &#8211; the air force and naval variants, the air force fighter trainer,the navy fighter trainer and Mk 2 versions of these. 

This shows the confidence with which the user is placing orders for these derivatives. 

Another very important point is that the users are funding the development of these derivatives. This shows we now have a lot of business, which is taking place with user participation. 

What are the future programmes planned?

As I said earlier, when we began the programme we were dealing with second generation technologies. Now we have jumped to fourth generation technologies. If you don't have future programmes planned, and stay where you are, you will only be widening the technology gap with the rest of the world. If you wish to progress further, one way is to keep developing technologies. Keeping this in mind we now have a separate programme for technology development.

But unless technologies are packaged and put on the aircraft they will not mature. So we are working on programmes like the medium combat aircraft. So far we were quite hesitant whether the user will require such technology. But they have communicated that they need a medium combat aircraft, in the medium weight class, in which platform they have asked us to incorporate next generation fighter technologies.

So we have conceptual studies for the next generation fighter aircraft with medium weight - of around 20 tonnes. The technologies which will go into that are futuristic technologies, like stealth. The aircraft should not be visible. It will have radar cross section reduction, infrared reduction. It will have super cruise technology, and also, this kind of an aircraft will have all weapons concealed in the airframe itself - all the conformal weapons.

In the case of avionics we have visualised that unless we take a quantum jump and understand what is happening in the rest of the world we will again be widening the gap.

So we have decided to work on integrated modular architecture of the weapons and avionics system. That architecture will be built into this. 

These are some of the technologies on which we are currently working .

What is the relevance of this seminar for your future technology requirement?

The seminar is very relevant. As I have pointed out we are now working on future technologies and programmes -so depending on what we need, and what we understand from our interactions with our users, we have to conceptualize what our future programmes and technologies are going to be like.

Using interaction opportunities with experts from the rest of the world we intend to understand what they are contemplating... here we will find ourselves hobnobbing with all the experts who are coming eg: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Embraer - you name it and all the companies are coming. Based on our interactions and one-on-one discussions with them we will try and figure out what future technologies they are contemplating.

As one of my colleagues said today the rest of the world has realised that India is a force to reckon with. Earlier, they would never have partnered with us but today they want us to be partners. They are ready to share information. Through this sharing of information we will realise if the technologies we are contemplating for development are contemporaneous are not.

What kind of aircraft to make ...what kind of unmanned aircraft we should make, what kind of technologies we have to put into these aircrafts - all this visibility will come only from a seminar of this nature.

We have also made sure that the people who come, the topics we cover are of such a spectrum - that we get to know if the technologies that we intend to develop are the right technologies. 

We would also like to understand their approach with such programmes, their programme management techniques which will help us make our plans perfect. 

In what way would co-operation with foreign agencies or companies benefit the LCA programme?

Since this our first time we are very conservative when it comes to designing and developing this aircraft. We wish to avoid failure at any cost. Technically, our aircraft weight is1.5 tonnes extra &#8211; because of our conservative design the weight is 500 kg extra.

If we had a foreign consultant on this project -someone who has gone through the same processes he doesn't have to do anything for us but tell us simply, where we could possibly curtail the weight of the aircraft. We would be prepared to improve our design. In other words, a large number of design iterations which will be required to reach perfection would be cut short because that consultant has already gone through similar experience.

Another thing is with regard to flight testing - the number of flight tests that we do is more than is required. This is something even the foreign vendors are saying. They know the optimal size of the testing that we need to do. Most of the companies have been in the industry for the last 50-60 years and have made three to four generations of aircraft. These are things they have already done and we have not. 

The inputs we take from them is intellectual and not related to hardware or software. We will tell them what we intend to do - their job will be to tell us to achieve meaningful reductions in time and energy.

With such consultancy the number of design iterations we are going to do is likely to reduce - the number of flight tests we are going to do is also going to reduce. 

If we reduce flight testing time by, say, six month we will achieve savings of nearly Rs1000 crore. So whatever small amount we will pay them for consultancy is meant basically for them to tell us whether we are on the right track, or not. 

There is going to be no hardware or software support.

This is the way ahead for our future programmes where foreign collaboration will take place - we have now come to the four and a half generation level but when we contemplate taking on fifth generation fighter aircraft technologies benefits are expected to be substantial.

This is the purpose of the collaboration, which we are contemplating for the existing LCA programme, as well as for future fifth generation fighter programmes. This is the advice given to us by our higher management - do some kind of consultancy or participation programme so that partners also invest resources and result is optimal in terms of time and cost.


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## RPK

For LCA fanboys


domain-b.com : Indian business : Videos : Aviation & aerospace videos

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## RPK

LCA MK2 getting ready for indian navy

Indian Navy has okay-ed the placement of an order for six Naval Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (N-LCA). At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, this will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy's plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers.

The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.

But the LCA programme faces a bottleneck in choosing a new engine. Two uprated engines -- the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ-200 -- are currently being evaluated, but will be supplied only by 2013-14. And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.

P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency, which coordinates the LCA programme, explains: "We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier."

Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier. This will also be used for pilots&#8217; training and for training maintenance crews.


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## sudhir007

why the old news post again ???


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## RPK

sudhir007 said:


> why the old news post again ???



read this

sorry for posting old article it will help debulk some myth abt LCA


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## Super Falcon

The UK has offered assistance to India in upgrading its Sepecat Jaguar IS/IM/IB combat aircraft and the production of BAE Systems Hawk Mk 132 advanced jet trainers (AJT), the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.

According to a statement on 27 November, Quentin Davies, UK Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, told Indian defence officials that the UK was "eager to help" India refurbish the Sepecat Jaguar and "overcome problems" related to the licensed production of the AJT, which is being carried out by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Indian MoD is expected to issue a request for proposals to re-engine the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) fleet of 120 Sepecat Jaguars before the end of 2009. Both Rolls-Royce and Honeywell are expected to bid with their Adour Mk 821 and F125IN engines respectively. Earlier this year, both companies announced that they had carried out fitting and integration tests of their prospective powerplants on redundant Jaguar airframes and had demonstrated them in front of IAF representatives.

According to Rolls-Royce, its Mk 821 engine, of a development of the incumbent Adour Mk 811 powerplant, requires no modifications to the aircraft's structure or systems to fit. The Adour engine has been developed by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca and the Mk 871 variant is in licensed production with HAL for India's Hawk AJT. HAL is producing Mk 871 engines at its facility in Bangalore, where it has been manufacturing the Mk 811 engines since 1981.

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## sudhir007

Super Falcon said:


> The UK has offered assistance to India in upgrading its Sepecat Jaguar IS/IM/IB combat aircraft and the production of BAE Systems Hawk Mk 132 advanced jet trainers (AJT), the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.
> 
> According to a statement on 27 November, Quentin Davies, UK Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, told Indian defence officials that the UK was "eager to help" India refurbish the Sepecat Jaguar and "overcome problems" related to the licensed production of the AJT, which is being carried out by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The Indian MoD is expected to issue a request for proposals to re-engine the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) fleet of 120 Sepecat Jaguars before the end of 2009. Both Rolls-Royce and Honeywell are expected to bid with their Adour Mk 821 and F125IN engines respectively. Earlier this year, both companies announced that they had carried out fitting and integration tests of their prospective powerplants on redundant Jaguar airframes and had demonstrated them in front of IAF representatives.
> 
> According to Rolls-Royce, its Mk 821 engine, of a development of the incumbent Adour Mk 811 powerplant, requires no modifications to the aircraft's structure or systems to fit. The Adour engine has been developed by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca and the Mk 871 variant is in licensed production with HAL for India's Hawk AJT. HAL is producing Mk 871 engines at its facility in Bangalore, where it has been manufacturing the Mk 811 engines since 1981.


is this news as any concern or relation with LCA


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## RPK

HF-XX Tejas aka LCA coming to Delhi on RD.


Broadsword: FLASH NEWS: For the first time, the Tejas LCA will be displayed during India's Republic Day march-past on 26th January!

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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> HF-XX Tejas aka LCA coming to Delhi on RD.
> 
> 
> Broadsword: FLASH NEWS: For the first time, the Tejas LCA will be displayed during India's Republic Day march-past on 26th January!



About bloody time, it better perform some maneuvers.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1280 Test Flights successfully. (21-Jan-10).

* LCA has completed 1280 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-129,PV3-191,LSP1-54,LSP2-125,PV5-1).
* 191st flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 20th Jan 10.

(21-Jan-10)Tejas-LCA


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## krish

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1280 Test Flights successfully. (21-Jan-10).
> 
> * LCA has completed 1280 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-129,PV3-191,LSP1-54,LSP2-125,PV5-1).
> * 191st flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 20th Jan 10.
> 
> (21-Jan-10)Tejas-LCA





every day i see the lca fly past my head well because my college is very close to the airport where they test the aircraft and trust me they are annoying when they fly past very close to the building but its our lca so as a person who likes it i dont mind it and watch the sky just like other in my college

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## Hulk

You are lucky, I am in love with LCA.


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## Sam Dhanraj

gogbot said:


> About bloody time, it better perform some maneuvers.



As far as I know ....it will be static display under DRDO banner along with "Shaurya" and "Rohini Radar" !!! No maneuvers yet...!!!


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## FulcrumD

As per our friends at BR "Tejas" performed something like a tailslide today,the last time I saw it was last November at Bangalore,was performing very sharp turns and steep climbs which were simply awesome,this will be an asset to IAF in days to come.It reminds me of the nimble Gnat only more advanced,talking of Deja-Vu......


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## Sam Dhanraj

FulcrumD said:


> As per our friends at BR "Tejas" performed something like a tailslide today,the last time I saw it was last November at Bangalore,was performing very sharp turns and steep climbs which were simply awesome,this will be an asset to IAF in days to come.It reminds me of the nimble Gnat only more advanced,talking of Deja-Vu......



I am getting the similar news from friends around HAL airport in bangalore...some suggesting that it could be for republic day parade flypast...but friends in delhi are not counting on that ...I hope my delhi friends are wrong


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## FulcrumD

Sam Dhanraj said:


> I am getting the similar news from friends around HAL airport in bangalore...some suggesting that it could be for republic day parade flypast...but friends in delhi are not counting on that ...I hope my delhi friends are wrong



It might not be a flypast,could be a mock up,the reason might be IOC being considered very shortly HAL/ASTE cannot afford to lease precious PVs for a lavish flypast,they need those ACs to make up for the precious hours for IOC.TD1 could have been a solution but it has already been knocked down(disassembled)


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## krish

HAL to flight test LCH prototype next month

Bangalore: State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would fly the first prototype of Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), in February, its chairman Ashok Nayak said today.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a function, he said the first flight test was likely to take place on February two, when Defence Minister A K Antony visits the city.

This was the first attack helicopter to be designed indigenously and was tailor made for Indian Air Force's dedicated requirements, he said.

Apart from LCH, HAL had lined up a number of launches which includes, the Light Utility Helicopter, Turboprop Trainer, Multi-role-Transport Aircraft, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Indian Multi-role helicopter, Mr Nayak added.

The upgraded Advance Light Helicopter (ALH) produced by HAL, had already been inducted into IAF, he said adding the current batch had been upgraded by integrating several sensors and mission equipment to increase its effectiveness and survivability in hostile environment.

"These ALHs sport Shakti engines for high altitude operations upto six km altitude. Apart, it also had electronic warfare suite and electro optic sensor. Weapons were also being integrated into the helicopters which would be ready for delivery during next year", he added.


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## krish

Bangalore: State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would fly the first prototype of Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), in February, its chairman Ashok Nayak said today.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a function, he said the first flight test was likely to take place on February two, when Defence Minister A K Antony visits the city.

This was the first attack helicopter to be designed indigenously and was tailor made for Indian Air Force's dedicated requirements, he said.

Apart from LCH, HAL had lined up a number of launches which includes, the Light Utility Helicopter, Turboprop Trainer, Multi-role-Transport Aircraft, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Indian Multi-role helicopter, Mr Nayak added.

The upgraded Advance Light Helicopter (ALH) produced by HAL, had already been inducted into IAF, he said adding the current batch had been upgraded by integrating several sensors and mission equipment to increase its effectiveness and survivability in hostile environment.

"These ALHs sport Shakti engines for high altitude operations upto six km altitude. Apart, it also had electronic warfare suite and electro optic sensor. Weapons were also being integrated into the helicopters which would be ready for delivery during next year", he added.

HAL to flight test LCH prototype next month

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## Kinshuk

Hey any Picture of HAL LCH?

And what are the specifications, Role, and comparable helicopters?


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## RPK

Type/Role : Light Combat Helicopter : Twin tandem seat, light attack helicopter

Roles :
* Air defense against UAVs
* Air defense against slow moving aircraft
* Escort to special heli-borne operations
* Destruction of Enemy Air Defence (DEAD)
* Offensive employment in urban warfare
* Counter surface force and COIN operations
* Support of Combat SAR operations
* Anti-tank and Anti-vehicle roles
* Scout duties

Performance
Max. AUW 5500 kg
Max. Cruise at SL 260 km/h
VNE 330 km/h
Max. Operating altitude 6500 m
Ferry range with interm.load 700 km

Dimensions
Max. height 5300 mm
Main rotor diameter 13300 mm
Max. Length 16000 mm
Wing Span 3550 mm
Tail rotor diameter 2054 mm

Armament
* 20 mm gun
* Air to surface missiles
* Air-to-Air missiles
* Unguided rockets
* Iron bombs,Cluster bomb units,Grenade launchers
* Anti-radiation missiles

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## Kinshuk

Thanks Praveen,

This looks sweet.


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## Dark Angel

*This was just a mock up of the real deal *








The stage is set for the first prototype (LCH TD-1) flight of the Indian Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), scheduled to take place next month. The TD-1 will be an unweaponised platform, and the test-flight schedule for this prototype will only be towards validating principle airframe, aerodynamics, maneoverability and airworthiness parameters. Weapons integration tests will only take place with the second prototype, TD-2, that is scheduled for a first flight sometime later in 2010. Updates on the LCH follow.

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## krish

Dark Angel said:


> *This was just a mock up of the real deal *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stage is set for the first prototype (LCH TD-1) flight of the Indian Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), scheduled to take place next month. The TD-1 will be an unweaponised platform, and the test-flight schedule for this prototype will only be towards validating principle airframe, aerodynamics, maneoverability and airworthiness parameters. Weapons integration tests will only take place with the second prototype, TD-2, that is scheduled for a first flight sometime later in 2010. Updates on the LCH follow.



its a scale model of the real chopper


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## nightrider_saulat

i fear it might can be an another LCA


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## karan.1970

nightrider_saulat said:


> i fear it might can be an another LCA



You mean it may get inducted in 2010-2011 like LCA. ??

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## navtrek

nightrider_saulat said:


> i fear it might can be an another LCA



Have u seen these flying  we already have gained experience building choppers.

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## karan.1970

navtrek said:


> Have u seen these flying  we already have gained experience building choppers.



which one is the 2nd pic from the top?


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## Kinshuk

karan.1970 said:


> which one is the 2nd pic from the top?



It's dhruv but seems like it is armed.


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## Sam Dhanraj

Kinshuk said:


> It's dhruv but seems like it is armed.



Yes ..this is Dhruv and armed. This version is called *Dhruv WSI (Weapons Systems Integrated). *This one was amongst the the firsts to have new "Shakti Engine"



this is the machine on which the LCH&#8217;s armaments and sensors are being perfected,

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## karan.1970

Kinshuk said:


> It's dhruv but seems like it is armed.



Is the armed version of dhruv in service??


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## Dark Angel

karan.1970 said:


> Is the armed version of dhruv in service??




Here is a link : http://www.internationalaerospaceindia.com/2007/sep-oct/internationalaerospaceindia7.pdf


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## no_name

Kinshuk said:


> It's dhruv but seems like it is armed.



I've noticed that it's tail fins share some similarity with the model LCH pictured, whether superficially or not.

regards


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## RPK

no_name said:


> I've noticed that it's tail fins share some similarity with the model LCH pictured, whether superficially or not.
> 
> regards



yes, LCH is derived from dhruv


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## navtrek

Kinshuk said:


> It's dhruv but seems like it is armed.



its a weaponized DHRUV


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## Hulk

nightrider_saulat said:


> i fear it might can be an another LCA



LCA only needs time to become operational, it has way past that stage where it will be a failure. The same thing was said about ISRO too, wait till it gets operational and get IOC this year. You do not understand the benefit of have capability of produce fighter plane.

About LCH, we already have a flying DHRUV so it should not be that difficult.


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## Peace Sells no one buying

nightrider_saulat said:


> i fear it might can be an another LCA



objectively, your fears appear unfounded. just my two cents . . . no offense intended.


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## Creder

looks neat


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## Dark Angel

*Guys check this awesome video .................*

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## sancho

Still no new informations about the integration of LCA Mk1 radars and avionics?


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## RPK

The Hindu : News / National : India gets naval weapon system to destroy enemy targets

A state-of-the-art facility, dedicated to manufacture of Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) for the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) at BEL&#8217;s Bangalore Complex will also come up.

DFCC is a multiple redundant (improving its reliability, one channel will take over if another fails) digital fly-by-wire flight control system of Tejas, which controls manoeuvring of the aircraft.

DFCC is a flight critical sub-system to be manufactured as per AS 9100 standards with stringent in-process and quality control processes, including environmental tests on each unit.

To meet this requirement, BEL has set up this integrated manufacturing facility for assembly, inspection and testing of DFCC, all under one roof.

The facility includes thermal cycling chamber, vibration machine, dehumidifying chambers for storing PCBs, high resolution inspection tools to identify process errors, automated test equipment for rigorous performance testing and engineering test station for testing the DFCC unit.


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## sancho

*EJ 200 and LCA MK2*

Shiv Aroor from LiveFist is actually in Germany, to maken an article about the Eurofighter Typhoon in MMRCA. 
But in the first part of his article he was able to talk with Euro Jet officials about thr EJ 200 offer for LCA MK2!



> ...Discussions between the Indian government and Eurojet are currently at the Q&A phase -- a period post-RFP, where the buyer smoothens out details and calls upon the vendor to explain, clarify or expand anything put forth in their technical bid. A few days ago, Eurojet received a set of 32 such questions from the ADA (Tenter says he is surprised there weren't more), out of which 26 are associated with engineering aspects, while the remaining six pertain to transfer of technology issues. Eurojet faces formidable competition to power the LCA from the American General Electric F-414-400.
> 
> OK, now here's the juice. According to Tenter and his team, for the Tejas to be able to take in an EJ200 engine, *the engine will need "minor" modifications. These include some changing to the mounting assembly, a different hydraulic pump and an additional generator pack for starters. In addition, engine interfaces might need changes depending on how the LCA is configured. All in all, Eurojet believes its tailor-made EJ200 for the LCA can be ready-- certification tests and all -- in two years flat*. Officials at the company point out that one of the biggest downers for their competition is that the *F-414-400's intake interface assembly is markedly larger than the F-404 (and, thus, the LCA) and its selection would therefore imply some very serious modifications to the LCA's centre fuselage and intake architecture *(in addition to the use of a cone director for airflow). *Eurojet insists that the EJ200's installation will require absolutely no airframe and intake changes to the LCA.* Both contentions remain unconfirmed at this point.
> 
> Even though the LCA new-engine competition and the MMRCA competition are linked for Eurojet (the Eurofighter Typhoon is powered by the EJ200), the company has chosen to keep both campaigns strictly separate.
> 
> "When we demonstrated the engine's performance to a team from HAL and DRDO in November last year, they were amazed that there was no thrust droop in the EJ200. The engine is designed to compensate for thrust droop," says Tenter, confident that this and a rapid-fire list of other ostensible unique selling points make the Eurojet a frontrunner in the race.



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TYPHOON TOUR Part 1: Eurojet Heats Up For Tejas

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## FulcrumD

Latest pics of LCA.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/10300-2/KHT2009.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/10296-2/KHT2009_002.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/10298-3/KH2005_Bank.jpg

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## marcos98

FOR CONVINIENCE.........


TWIN SEATER

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## RPK

*EXCLUSIVE: AESA Programme For Tejas Scans For Development Partner* 
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: AESA Programme For Tejas Scans For Development Partner














India's homegrown AESA radar programme appears to be gathering pace. The Bangalore-based Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a laboratory under the DRDO, has invited bids from global radar houses to be the development partner (DP) for India's in-house active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for the LCA Tejas programme. In a tender issued on December 4 last year, LRDE wants the partnership to be initiated with the supply of an Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU) supplied by the development partner chosen.

According to the bid invitation, India wants the development partner to be responsible for "detailed design, development and realisation" of (a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna, (b) transmit/receive modules/groups, (c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface, (d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and (e) array calibration/BITE among other areas. The final requirement in the comprehensive list of ten requirements from the development partner is listed as "AAAU Integration on Tejas A/c", confirming that the radar is indeed for a future tranche of the Tejas, or possibly, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

"DP (development partner) must have experience in design, development, integration, testing and flightevaluation of AESA Radar systems for fighter class of aircraft. DP must ensure that the items/components used for the development of AAAU are not protected by International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR). DP must have delivered AESA class of operational systems for fighter class of aircraft meeting delivery schedules of the international customers," the bid invitation states.

Photos by Shiv Aroor / 1. Raytheon APG-79 AESA antenna modules, Naval Air Station Lemoore, USA & 2. LCA Tejas at Aero India 2009

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## Insane

While I am happy with all the planes that are coming into India like MRCA and the future FGFA, The development that is going on with the LCA TEJAS satisfies me the most. Though its an object of constant ridicule I feel its finally nearing the stage where it will be part of the IAF and I believe it will serve India well. 

Its shaping up to be a pretty good fighter.. Even if it took decades but at the time of its induction its a pretty up-to-date fighter for the time. 

The AESA news just adds one more dimension to the TEJAS program. It already looks a lovely Bird.. By 2015 if it gets the New Engine and AESA, it would be a pretty potent fighter in its own right. Exciting Prospect this

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## RPK

Rear Seat


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## no_name

The rear seat don't seems to be able to see the front view


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## RPK

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: LCA Programme To Get Status Check By Defence Minister

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony is scheduled to visit Bangalore tomorrow, during which he will witness a 20-minute flight between 10.30-10.50AM of one of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas prototypes in flight. He will receive a briefing on the status of the programme from HAL chairman Ashok Nayak and senior officials of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). Note, the LCA is to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) this year. The minister will also, notably, inaugurate a digital flight control computer facility at Bharat Electronics Ltd's Bangalore complex and a system test and integration rig for India's indigenous airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system at the Centre for Airborne Systems. EADS has confirmed that its consultancy to bring the air force version of the LCA up to speed on its flight trials schedule is active and a team has been embedded in Bangalore for the purpose. Updates and photos tomorrow.


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## krish

dude this is weekly trial run that happens every two days a week which is close to my college............... i see it every week and more over its not only the LCA i happened to see ALH Dhruvu and the HAL jet trainee and even the MMRCA trial of all the 6 aircraft's when it happened........... its great u know..................

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## gogbot

krish said:


> dude this is weekly trial run that happens every two days a week which is close to my college............... i see it every week and more over its not only the LCA i happened to see ALH Dhruvu and the HAL jet trainee and even the MMRCA trial of all the 6 aircraft's when it happened........... its great u know..................



Ever considered investing in a camera and taking a photograph.

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## hindesi

krish said:


> dude this is weekly trial run that happens every two days a week which is close to my college............... i see it every week and more over its not only the LCA i happened to see ALH Dhruvu and the HAL jet trainee and even the MMRCA trial of all the 6 aircraft's when it happened........... its great u know..................



I saw today's trial runs, the bird took a hard left over my office (right next to new horizon). gave me goosebumps!!

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## krish

hindesi said:


> I saw today's trial runs, the bird took a hard left over my office (right next to new horizon). gave me goosebumps!!



blow me iam in New horizon we should meet up some day


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## krish

gogbot said:


> Ever considered investing in a camera and taking a photograph.



that's a nice suggestion i will try it................ and more over my digi cam is not that gud but anyways i'll try to get some

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## jha

next time better come with the fotos ...


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## marcos98

Today's LCA Tejas Flight Display At Bangalore 




*COURTESY: Livefist*

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## Dark Angel

Strongly backing the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) programme, Defence Minister A K Antony today said the LCA would obtain Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by this year-end.

Antony said that when he took over as Defence Minister, there was "all round scepticism" about the project, with critics &#8212; apparently referring to "inordinate delay" and technological challenges &#8212; questioning its continuation and dubbing it a "total failure".

"All the doubting Thomases have proved to be wrong", he said after witnessing the flight display of the twin-seater trainer version prototype (PV5) and another belonging to the limited series production-2 of the LCA programme.

"Today I can assure you with confidence....I can declare at last LCA is going to be a reality", Antony said, adding the IOC of Tejas would take place by December this year and final clearance by the end of 2012.

He said the LCA has completed all its trials as well as at the sea-level. IAF has already placed orders for delivery of 20 LCAs. Orders for another 20 has been cleared (by the ministry), for which the Cabinet nod would be sought.

Antony said the Cabinet Committee on Security had sanctioned nearly Rs 8,000 crore for further development of the LCA programme in terms of air and naval versions and new engine.


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## RPK

*Cabinet outlays Rs 8,000 crore for development of LCA*

NEWS : newsonair, All India Radio, Latest News, AIR, Akashwani, Repubic Day, Akashvani, Radio, Prasar Bharti, NSD, News Services Division, Business, RSS from India, India, Breaking News Online, Current Headlines India, Today Top Stories, Top Headline



Defence Minister A.K. Antony witnessed the demonstration flight of 5th prototype of light combat aircraft, LCA, trainer version in Bangalore on Tuesday. 

Terming the flight demonstration as historic he appreciated the contribution of various organisations in making LCA a reality. He said, all weather capabilities of LCA are tested and proved. 

He declared that LCA would receive initial operational clearance by December this year and final operational clearance by end of 2012. He informed that Air Force has placed an order for 20 LCAs and another order for 20 LCAs will be cleared by Cabinet shortly. 

He further said, Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared an outlay of 8,000 crores rupees for development of Air Force and navy version of LCA and improvement of aircraft's engine. 

Speaking about revamping of DRDO the Defence R&D centre, the Minister said, the process is on as a committee headed by Defence Secretary is going through the recommendation.

Mr. A. K. Antony said, India maintains friendly relationship with other countries but at the same time it concentrates on strengthening its military set up all over the country to meet any eventuality.

Before the LCA demonstration flight, the Minister inaugurated System Test and Integration Rig, STIR for development of airborne warning and control system.

The Minister asked DRDO to build long term capabilities and focus on quality rather than quantity. He hoped that inauguration of STIR will provide a boost to the aeronautical sector.

Scientific advisor to Defence Minister Dr. V.K. Saraswat and DRDO Secretary Dr. Banerjee were present on this occasion.


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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> *Cabinet outlays Rs 8,000 crore for development of LCA*
> 
> NEWS : newsonair, All India Radio, Latest News, AIR, Akashwani, Repubic Day, Akashvani, Radio, Prasar Bharti, NSD, News Services Division, Business, RSS from India, India, Breaking News Online, Current Headlines India, Today Top Stories, Top Headline
> 
> 
> 
> Defence Minister A.K. Antony witnessed the demonstration flight of 5th prototype of light combat aircraft, LCA, trainer version in Bangalore on Tuesday.
> 
> Terming the flight demonstration as historic he appreciated the contribution of various organisations in making LCA a reality. He said, all weather capabilities of LCA are tested and proved.
> 
> He declared that LCA would receive initial operational clearance by December this year and final operational clearance by end of 2012. He informed that Air Force has placed an order for 20 LCAs and another order for 20 LCAs will be cleared by Cabinet shortly.
> 
> He further said, Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared an outlay of 8,000 crores rupees for development of Air Force and navy version of LCA and improvement of aircraft's engine.
> 
> Speaking about revamping of DRDO the Defence R&D centre, the Minister said, the process is on as a committee headed by Defence Secretary is going through the recommendation.
> 
> Mr. A. K. Antony said, India maintains friendly relationship with other countries but at the same time it concentrates on strengthening its military set up all over the country to meet any eventuality.
> 
> Before the LCA demonstration flight, the Minister inaugurated System Test and Integration Rig, STIR for development of airborne warning and control system.
> 
> The Minister asked DRDO to build long term capabilities and focus on quality rather than quantity. He hoped that inauguration of STIR will provide a boost to the aeronautical sector.
> 
> Scientific advisor to Defence Minister Dr. V.K. Saraswat and DRDO Secretary Dr. Banerjee were present on this occasion.



Finally Some money for Indigenous programs

So far the amount of money spent of the LCA has been peanuts,



> Rs 5,489.78 crore which translates to about 1.2 billion dollars(depending on the exchange tare)



Another Rs 8000 crore , can finally speed things up.

I hope this trend continues into the new decade


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## hindustan

good news for LCA


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## RPK

NEWS : newsonair, All India Radio, Latest News, AIR, Akashwani, Repubic Day, Akashvani, Radio, Prasar Bharti, NSD, News Services Division, Business, RSS from India, India, Breaking News Online, Current Headlines India, Today Top Stories, Top Headline

*Antony promises to provide all impetus to develop LCA*


Defence Minister A K Anthony cleared the uncertainty over the future of Light Combat Aircraft LCA, by announcing in Bangalore today that Government will provide all essential impetus for the progress of this project.

Addressing the press after witnessing air display by LCA fighter, the Defence Minister termed the flight display as historic and appreciated efforts of Aeronautical Development Agency and other stake holders for designing and developing LCA within the country.

He disclosed that LCA which has cleared all weather operations capability tests would be getting Final Operational Clearance by 2012. The Defence Minister later inaugurated &#8216;Digital Flight Control Computer&#8217; manufacturing facility in BEL. 

AIR Correspondent Sudhindra reports from Bangalore that today was an occasion to rejoice for our Countrymen, as number of indigenized weapon systems and fighter aircrafts were operationalised and successfully flight tested. The Defence Minister continuously stressed this point on the importance of indegenisation, during his programmes in DRDO and BEL today in Bangalore. 

He proudly announced that Akash surface to air medium range missiles developed within the country has been whole heartedly welcomed by our Air Force and additional order has been placed for 750 of them apart from 250 acquired earlier. He also disclosed that Airforce has placed an order for 20 additional LCAs apart from an order of 20 placed earlier. He also welcomed Navy for replacing imported sonars and radars with the one manufactured by BEL. 

The Minister however regretted that non availability of advanced technologies indigenously compels the country to import nearly 70 &#37; of our defence procurements. He wished that Indian industry in the Public and Private sector will reduce our over dependence on external sources which are undependable during the time of crisis.


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## RPK

*India Declares Indigenous Combat Jet a Success*

BANGALORE - India's defense minister announced Feb. 2 that a much-delayed project to build an indigenous supersonic combat aircraft was a success.

The jets are intended to become the country's frontline combat plane by 2020.

A.K. Antony told reporters the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) - billed by India as the world's smallest warjet - would be cleared for limited flights by the end of 2010.

"Today I can declare that at last the LCA is going to be a reality," Antony said in the southern city of Bangalore where the locally built plane had been on the design board since 1983 when the multi-billion dollar project began.

The minister said the aircraft, powered by engines supplied by U.S.-based General Electrics, would be ready for full induction into the military by 2012.

"All the doubting Thomases have proved to be wrong," Antony said, referring to skeptics who doubted that the combat jet would ever take off.

Antony said the Indian Air Force had already placed an initial order for 20 of the jets.

Although the first LCA prototype rolled out in 1995, the project hit an air pocket three years later when the United States and other Western governments slapped a slew of sanctions on India in retaliation for its 1998 nuclear tests.

The LCA won the nickname "last chance aircraft" because of the delays.

India's first attempt in the 1950s to make an indigenous fighter plane failed after it built a limited number of ground attack planes that fell far short of military specifications.

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## RPK

*Tejas for IAF by yearend-Asian Age*


Bengaluru, Feb. 2: The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project is on the home stretch. India&#8217;s first indigenous supersonic, multi-role fighter is now a "reality", defence minister A.K. Antony declared on Tuesday, virtually putting a stamp of approval on the aircraft by saying that "it will certainly get the initial operational clearance (IOC) by the end of 2010."

Upon achieving IOC, the Indian Air Force, which has ordered 20 Tejas fighters and is expected to ask for 20 more soon, will establish a squadron of these at an airbase in Tamil Nadu. The final operational clearance is expected by end-2012, after which Tejas will spread its wings across the country.

"It&#8217;s a historic day," Mr Antony said soon after the LCA flew a demonstration flight. "Serious doubts were raised about Tejas. Three years ago, there were demands to abandon it. The Doubting Thomases have been proved wrong. Now I can proudly say we will fly our own fighters."

The IAF could be flying a squadron of Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by the end of the year.

In January, the Cabinet Committee on Security allocated Rs 8,000 crores for production of the Air Force version of the LCA and for the development of the naval version and the trainer, clearly indicating that there was now no doubt at the highest decision-making levels about the success of the project. Tejas, long criticised as being too late, too expensive, was first conceived some 27 years ago, began as a technology demonstrator project in 1993 and was subsequently cleared for development as a multi-role fighter in 2001.

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## Tejas-MkII

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

Bengaluru, Feb. 2: The IAF, long ridiculed as one of the worlds biggest air forces that has never flown its own indigenous fighters, could be flying a squadron of Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by the end of the year. 

The defence minister, Mr A.K. Anthony, declared on Tuesday that the indigenous aircraft, the worlds smallest multi-role fighter will certainly get the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by the end of 2010. 

In January, the Cabinet Committee on Security allocated Rs 8,000 crore for production of the air force version of the LCA and for the development of the naval version and the trainer, clearly indicating that there was now no doubt at the highest decision-making levels about the success of the project. 

Tejas  long criticised as being too late, too expensive  was first conceived some 27 years ago. It began as a technology demonstrator project in 1993 and was subsequently cleared for development as a multi-role fighter in 2001. 

Nearly, all trials have been completed in some 1,290 flights. 

Mr P. S. Subramanyam, the man spearheading the development of Tejas, said, *Only the Multi-Mode Radar needs to be flown on Tejas, and that we will do this month*. 

Mr Antonys championship of the indigenous military technology has also seen DRDO notch up a Rs 4,000 crore IAF order to supply it six squadrons of Akash air defence missile systems, in addition to the two squadrons it already has and against stiff competition from the Israeli Spyder system.

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## RPK

8ak - Indian Defence News: Eurojet could transfer single crystal blade technology to India

*Eurojet could transfer single crystal blade technology to India *


04 Feb 2009 8ak: Eurojet management today confirmed that if required they are willing to transfer single crystal turbine blade technology. This is currently not under the scope of the RFP and a separate agreement would have to be signed. 

Under the license production of the Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKI it is believed that Russia transferred some of this technology to India, however Mr Harmut Tenter, Managing Director of Eurojet claims that their technology is a generation ahead. This is a complex process in which the entire blade is a single giant crystal. The end result is that the blades can withstand up to 200 degree higher temperatures whilst also improving the efficiency of the engine. More on the engine technology here. 

On the offsets issue, Mr Tenter pointed out to their good working relationship with HAL on the gearbox for the ALH Dhruv which is amongst the most advanced in the world. They are open to any company that the MoD nominates and would like to see greater opportunity to partnership with the Indian private sector. Meanwhile in the U.K. Rolls Royce has won a US$1.4 billion contract to maintain the Eurojet engines in their Typhoons. In this light, Mr Tender was asked whether there could be a role for the Indian private sector in engine maintenance; he replied that this is entirely possible but solely for the IAF to decide. 

While low initial orders would mean that the numbers may not justify setting up a complete production facility in India, Mr Tenter says that this is something they could consider in the future even for areas unrelated to the current engine order. Eurojet has repeatedly claimed that they are looking at long term partnerships and points to the success of Airbus company as an example of a very successful European consortium.

On Feb 2 after the LCA test and demonstration, defence minister, Mr A.K. Anthony declared an additional 8,000 crores (~US$1.8b) for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme. It is believed that a significant portion of this is for the engine technology. While Sncema has offered to help resolve the problems with the Kaveri engine, the need of the IAF is urgent and it is felt that even DRDO cannot justify the delay that would arise from waiting for the Kaveri-Snecma engine to be developed. This means that only GE's F414 and Eurojet are in the competition for the LCA engine. 

Some analysts feel that India would be more susceptible to sanctions from Eurojet, since it is a consortium of companies from 4 countries, than from the U.S. In response, Mr Tenter said that during Kargil war, work continued uninterrupted. He added that should India choose Eurojet, it is a minimum 40 year relationship and a commitment that Eurojet and their partner countries take very seriously. Germany signed a defence co-operation agreement with India in 2006 and is the lead nation in the Eurojet consortium. 

Reading an article from two years ago on the Kaveri - GE - Eurojet dilema, it seems that even though the issue was just as urgent 2 years ago, no action was taken. 8ak believes that whether GE or Eurojet wins, the issue must be resolved quickly and the long delayed Tejas deployed in numbers that could bring down costs to make it suitable for the export market.

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## RPK




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## zeus

> Meanwhile, Director of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) U K Revankar said the DRDO lab has developed new electronic warfare system for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and it would be tested shortly.
> 
> Defence scientists are also working on technologies to intercept and jam network of satellite phones. &#8220;That project is going on. Within a year, it will be ready,&#8221; an official said.
> 
> India has also developed a &#8220;penetration aid&#8221; that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory &#8220;without being identified by any of the radars,&#8221; sources said.



India develops electronic intelligence tech for surveillance idrw.org

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## Tejas-MkII

Last AI-09 it has been said that various technologies like DRFM,MAWS,RWR,LWR,etc.. already been developed ,apart fron this they are also working on combo of RWR and SPJ to form RWJ...

Also the work on EW suite combining all the above tech. had going on..seem like they completed the suite and may be in IOC aor FOC they will check this suite..

Not to forget the talk about _mayavi_ suite .......

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## sudhir007




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## yashraj

zeus said:


> India develops electronic intelligence tech for surveillance idrw.org



hey Zeus.... according to "India has also developed a penetration aid that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory without being identified by any of the radars, 

That means they are developing "RAM" coating for our LCA ??????


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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> hey Zeus.... according to "India has also developed a penetration aid that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory without being identified by any of the radars,
> 
> That means they are developing "RAM" coating for our LCA ??????



WoWWWWWWWWW that cool


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## Cityboy

very good info...superb pics


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## sudhir007

> As per new Specifications by DEFECE EXPO 2010 dry weight down to 5680kg from 6500kg

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## DMLA

> As per new Specifications by DEFECE EXPO 2010 dry weight down to 5680kg from 6500kg



Good news indeed. Hopefully new engines will solve the speed issues and we will have a good bird. I would assume that much of the "reduction" would have been the result of the program moving close to IOC (completing flight tests) and thus, the removal of most test instruments!


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## sudhir007

DMLA said:


> Good news indeed. Hopefully new engines will solve the speed issues and we will have a good bird. I would assume that much of the "reduction" would have been the result of the program moving close to IOC (completing flight tests) and thus, the removal of most test instruments!



This mean more fuel more weapon load. rytnow it can carry 3000kg internal fuel and 4000kg weapon load


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## neo4moss

If it was russia it would have been long released. This isa aircraft made by a developing country for the first time, development wont come fast , it has to wait. The engine is indigineously made and many countries take time for example it ook 13 years for french to master the engine they use in rafale.


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## sudhir007



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## thebrownguy

zavis2003 said:


> I hope that this LCA (Low capability aircraft) would develop soon



troll alrert!!!! 
dude pls behave .. even i have a bunch of names for ur jf7 .. bt chuck!!


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## manish123

The never en ending saga of LCA.We should make a bollywood picture of the nautanki where the politicians and babus can play the role of villians.


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## yuba

manish123 said:


> The never en endind saga of LCA.We should make a bollywood picture of the nautanki.



manish mate thats thread number 6 nw that you have gone on and had a pop whats wrong


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## manish123

Mate Yuba I read somewhere that actual procurement of even the nuisance called pakistan is more last CY compared to india what to talk of their barbaric brothers, whereas our polititicians are just blowing hot air everywhere I look fooling the aam aadmi. Even nuclear deal is not being implemented by MMS since orders from America dont seem to have come.


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## manish123

Gurmeet Kanwal

February 11, 2010

The American ambassador in Islamabad has said that the US Defence Department is considering the sale of 12 unarmed drones to Pakisatan to encourage it to cooperate in the war on terror. It is not beyond Pakistans technological capability to arm these UAVs with air-to-ground missiles for use in conventional conflict.

A few months ago, Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), had accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation at the Lockheed Martin facility at Fort Worth, Texas. The remaining aircraft will be delivered in 2010. The total order, worth US$5.1 billion, is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds. When this transfer is completed, it will raise the total number of F-16s in service with the PAF to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982.

Earlier, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency had notified Congress of a Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 115 M109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised by Pakistan, could be as high as $56 million.

This is not the first time that the US has offered major arms packages to Pakistan, nor will it be the last. The United States had co-opted Pakistan as a frontline state in its fight against communism during the Cold War and armed it with Patton tanks, F-86 Sabre Jets and F-104 Starfighters, among other weapons and equipment. Despite strong US assurances, all of these were used against India. US-Pakistan cooperation was expanded further when the former Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan. In the 1980s, the CIA gave Pakistan huge quantities of weapons for the Afghan mujahideen. These included shoulder-fired Stinger surface-to-air missiles, some of which were recovered by the Indian Army from Pakistans terrorist mercenaries in Kashmir. However, as soon as the last Soviet tank left Afghan soil, the United States dropped Pakistan like a hot potato and slapped sanctions on it.

Post-September 11, the United States not only ignored Pakistans nuclear proliferation but also its emergence as the new hub of Islamist fundamentalist terrorism. It also tolerated General Musharrafs dictatorial regime because it suited US national interests in the war against terrorism. The US designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) in March 2004 had irritated Indian policy planners because Indo-US relations had just begun to improve. The next steps in strategic partnership (NSSP) had been announced only in January 2004 and India was looking forward to a comprehensive engagement with the United States. The Indo-US strategic partnership is now on a firm footing, but developments such as the sale of major conventional arms to Pakistan run the risk of damaging the growing relationship.

The sale of conventional arms to Pakistan ostensibly to fight terrorism has been criticised even in the United States. A Congressional Research Service (CRS) report has questioned the sale: "It (the F-16 Block 52) incorporates advanced weapons and avionics for air-to-air combat that appear unnecessary for counterinsurgency operations. Less expensive and less sophisticated aircraft such as attack helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, and combat search and rescue aircraft would appear to have greater utility in combating insurgents and other non-state actors than supersonic fighter aircraft." It is another matter that Pakistan has been actually using fighter aircraft to strike targets on ground in Swat and South Waziristan. These are tactics that are bound to generate a severe backlash against its armed forces, as has been witnessed in a spate of attacks against senior army personnel in Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

The United States justifies arms sales to Pakistan on several grounds. Besides the need to continue to retain Pakistans support in the hunt for al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists, the United States realises the fragility of the civilian regime in the face of Islamist hardliners in the army, the ISI and the country. It sees the Pakistan Army as a stabilising force in a country that is being gradually Islamised beyond redemption. The United States feels that it must do all that it can to keep the civilian regime in power. It is also deeply concerned about Pakistans nuclear weapons falling into jihadi hands if there is an Islamist coup. Hence, the United States feels inclined to offer some sops to satisfy Pakistans corps commanders at regular intervals. The sale of eight Orion maritime surveillance aircraft, the Phalanx gun systems and the 2000 TOW anti-tank-cum-bunker busting missiles falls in this category. Also, India and Pakistan are among the largest arms buyers in the world today and no US administration can neglect the military-industrial complex.

Though the sale of the Orion reconnaissance aircraft will make things relatively more difficult for the Indian Navy, they do not pose a direct new threat to India. The proposed sale indicates a US design to engage the Pakistan Navy in joint reconnaissance and patrolling of the sea lanes in the Gulf region by bolstering its capability while a similar exercise is being undertaken with the Indian Navy in the southern Bay of Bengal and the Malacca Straits. Clearly, the United States is planning to cooperate with the Indian Navy through its Honolulu-based Pacific Command and with the Pakistan Navy through its Central Command. Such an arrangement will also keep the Indian and Pakistan navies from having to launch joint operations and undertake search, seizure and rescue operations together.

If India wishes to influence US arms sales decisions, it must develop adequate leverages to make the United States reconsider the pros and cons very carefully. The supply of a new batch of F-16 aircraft to Pakistan will certainly enhance the strike capabilities of the PAF even though the Indian Air Force will still continue to enjoy both qualitative and quantitative superiority. India is justified in seeing the move to go ahead with the sale of the F-16s as an US attempt to balance its strategic partnership with India by once again propping up Pakistan as a regional challenger.


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## sricharannaidu

manish123 said:


> Gurmeet Kanwal
> 
> February 11, 2010
> 
> The American ambassador in Islamabad has said that the US Defence Department is considering the sale of 12 unarmed drones to Pakisatan to encourage it to cooperate in the war on terror. It is not beyond Pakistans technological capability to arm these UAVs with air-to-ground missiles for use in conventional conflict.
> 
> A few months ago, Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), had accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation at the Lockheed Martin facility at Fort Worth, Texas. The remaining aircraft will be delivered in 2010. The total order, worth US$5.1 billion, is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds. When this transfer is completed, it will raise the total number of F-16s in service with the PAF to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982.
> 
> Earlier, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency had notified Congress of a Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 115 M109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised by Pakistan, could be as high as $56 million.
> 
> This is not the first time that the US has offered major arms packages to Pakistan, nor will it be the last. The United States had co-opted Pakistan as a frontline state in its fight against communism during the Cold War and armed it with Patton tanks, F-86 Sabre Jets and F-104 Starfighters, among other weapons and equipment. Despite strong US assurances, all of these were used against India. US-Pakistan cooperation was expanded further when the former Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan. In the 1980s, the CIA gave Pakistan huge quantities of weapons for the Afghan mujahideen. These included shoulder-fired Stinger surface-to-air missiles, some of which were recovered by the Indian Army from Pakistans terrorist mercenaries in Kashmir. However, as soon as the last Soviet tank left Afghan soil, the United States dropped Pakistan like a hot potato and slapped sanctions on it.
> 
> Post-September 11, the United States not only ignored Pakistans nuclear proliferation but also its emergence as the new hub of Islamist fundamentalist terrorism. It also tolerated General Musharrafs dictatorial regime because it suited US national interests in the war against terrorism. The US designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) in March 2004 had irritated Indian policy planners because Indo-US relations had just begun to improve. The next steps in strategic partnership (NSSP) had been announced only in January 2004 and India was looking forward to a comprehensive engagement with the United States. The Indo-US strategic partnership is now on a firm footing, but developments such as the sale of major conventional arms to Pakistan run the risk of damaging the growing relationship.
> 
> The sale of conventional arms to Pakistan ostensibly to fight terrorism has been criticised even in the United States. A Congressional Research Service (CRS) report has questioned the sale: "It (the F-16 Block 52) incorporates advanced weapons and avionics for air-to-air combat that appear unnecessary for counterinsurgency operations. Less expensive and less sophisticated aircraft such as attack helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, and combat search and rescue aircraft would appear to have greater utility in combating insurgents and other non-state actors than supersonic fighter aircraft." It is another matter that Pakistan has been actually using fighter aircraft to strike targets on ground in Swat and South Waziristan. These are tactics that are bound to generate a severe backlash against its armed forces, as has been witnessed in a spate of attacks against senior army personnel in Islamabad and Rawalpindi.
> 
> The United States justifies arms sales to Pakistan on several grounds. Besides the need to continue to retain Pakistans support in the hunt for al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists, the United States realises the fragility of the civilian regime in the face of Islamist hardliners in the army, the ISI and the country. It sees the Pakistan Army as a stabilising force in a country that is being gradually Islamised beyond redemption. The United States feels that it must do all that it can to keep the civilian regime in power. It is also deeply concerned about Pakistans nuclear weapons falling into jihadi hands if there is an Islamist coup. Hence, the United States feels inclined to offer some sops to satisfy Pakistans corps commanders at regular intervals. The sale of eight Orion maritime surveillance aircraft, the Phalanx gun systems and the 2000 TOW anti-tank-cum-bunker busting missiles falls in this category. Also, India and Pakistan are among the largest arms buyers in the world today and no US administration can neglect the military-industrial complex.
> 
> Though the sale of the Orion reconnaissance aircraft will make things relatively more difficult for the Indian Navy, they do not pose a direct new threat to India. The proposed sale indicates a US design to engage the Pakistan Navy in joint reconnaissance and patrolling of the sea lanes in the Gulf region by bolstering its capability while a similar exercise is being undertaken with the Indian Navy in the southern Bay of Bengal and the Malacca Straits. Clearly, the United States is planning to cooperate with the Indian Navy through its Honolulu-based Pacific Command and with the Pakistan Navy through its Central Command. Such an arrangement will also keep the Indian and Pakistan navies from having to launch joint operations and undertake search, seizure and rescue operations together.
> 
> If India wishes to influence US arms sales decisions, it must develop adequate leverages to make the United States reconsider the pros and cons very carefully. The supply of a new batch of F-16 aircraft to Pakistan will certainly enhance the strike capabilities of the PAF even though the Indian Air Force will still continue to enjoy both qualitative and quantitative superiority. India is justified in seeing the move to go ahead with the sale of the F-16s as an US attempt to balance its strategic partnership with India by once again propping up Pakistan as a regional challenger.




man why u poasted this on in lca thread


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## sudhir007

A contract for procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operational Clearance configuration was signed with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd on March 31, 2006. *These LCA are likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011. *

*In addition to the above contract for 20 LCA, a proposal for procurement of an additional 20 LCA in Final Operational Clearance configuration is being progressed. The specifications of the LCA are as per the Air Service Requirements framed by the IAF. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri Santosh Bagrodia and Shri Santaram Laxman Naik in Rajya Sabha today. 

PIB Press Release

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## sudhir007

*PIB Press Release*

*Induction of LCA Tejas into IAF*

A contract for procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operational Clearance configuration was signed with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd on March 31, 2006. *These LCA are likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011. *

*In addition to the above contract for 20 LCA, a proposal for procurement of an additional 20 LCA in Final Operational Clearance configuration is being progressed. The specifications of the LCA are as per the Air Service Requirements framed by the IAF. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri Santosh Bagrodia and Shri Santaram Laxman Naik in Rajya Sabha today.

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## illuminatidinesh

That would be good news i hope


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## Windjammer

The detail shown by HAL on LCA at Aero India certainly leaves nothing to be desired.
1; Take off distance...............1300 M
2: Landing distance................1700 M
3: Combat Radius.................. 300 KM

(IMG:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S36pQgBKyyI/AAAAAAAABOk/iYPLfQ-UkfE/s1600/CIMG2779.JPG) 


(IMG:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/SxKldW3HK_I/AAAAAAAAAoU/nNbiDdLtOcA/s1600/Image050.jpg)

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## Dark Angel

means we are just 10-12 months away from IOC hoooooooray


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Another 1 year


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## Dark Angel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Another 1 year




i think its good that by same time next year 

20 of these killers will be in Iaf roundel and 

40 waiting in the line


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## zeus

IOC is only held up due to MMR radar other test have been completed once that is done ,A2A mode test will be conducted and few Ground tests and that it


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## LCA Tejas

Yippie, We need more LCA's in our Mighty Indian airforce....


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## sudhir007

zeus said:


> IOC is only held up due to MMR radar other test have been completed once that is done ,A2A mode test will be conducted and few Ground tests and that it



any news abt MMR induction coze it hald on next month.


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Another 1 year



Do you have any problem ???  

It's better for you if we keep wasting our money on a *FAILED* project  You should be happy about it

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## Awesome

It's never going to happen by March 2011.


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## LCA Tejas

Asim Aquil said:


> It's never going to happen by March 2011.



Thanks for your suggestion.....


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## Trichy

First Squadron is to be placed @ Coimbatore Air Force Base(Sulur), Tamil Nadu. 

My State Holds the First!!!


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## LCA Tejas

Trichy said:


> First Squadron is to be placed @ Coimbatore Air Force Base(Sulur), Tamil Nadu.
> 
> My State Holds the First!!!



Hey you are from trichy as your name states.... hehehe, Iam from chennai.... glad that I would see LCA fly in my state first....


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## Trichy

LCA Tejas said:


> Hey you are from trichy as your name states.... hehehe, Iam from chennai.... glad that I would see LCA fly in my state first....



Ya my friend im from Trichy only...i know Chennai very well i worked there for 3 years, i stayed at Mylapore


The first batch is inferior to the later batches but who holds the first...!!!

First is First...!!! what you say...


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## LCA Tejas

Trichy said:


> Ya my friend im from Trichy only...i know Chennai very well i worked there for 3 years, i stayed at Mylapore
> 
> 
> The first batch is inferior to the later batches but who holds the first...!!!
> 
> First is First...!!! what you say...



indeed it is... first is first....


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## jha

bring it on...

but i'm waiting for MK-2...with AESA radar and all other stuffs..


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully. (24-Feb-10).


LCA has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-129,PV3-194,LSP1-54,LSP2-138,*PV5-6

*). (24-Feb-10)Tejas-LCA


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## suryanaidu

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully. (24-Feb-10).
> 
> 
> LCA has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-129,PV3-194,LSP1-54,LSP2-138,*PV5-6
> 
> 
> 
> how many test flights they are going to make 1500 or 2000 *


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## LCA Tejas

suryanaidu said:


> sudhir007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully. (24-Feb-10).
> 
> 
> LCA has completed 1301 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-129,PV3-194,LSP1-54,LSP2-138,*PV5-6
> 
> 
> 
> how many test flights they are going to make 1500 or 2000 *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Are we trying to get our names into book of world records? *
Click to expand...


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## suryanaidu

LCA Tejas said:


> suryanaidu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we trying to get our names into book of world records?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> generaly how many test flights are going to make to induct a new jet?
Click to expand...


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## LCA Tejas

4MothaChina said:


> lol don't crash, really I hope these birds don't all come down at the same time while up in the air.



dont worry about that dude, no matter what else happen, we are pretty sure that this aircraft would not crash, ask me how?

LCA has finished 1301 Successful flight tests as of today, so keep your troll aside and join us and enjoy

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## al-hind

Asim Aquil said:


> It's never going to happen by March 2011.



good for you right ?? .. so be happy man


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## abdul1

suryanaidu said:


> LCA Tejas said:
> 
> 
> 
> generaly how many test flights are going to make to induct a new jet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not number of flights it's about number of test points that needs to be covered unfortunately those are not in public domain
Click to expand...


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## Kinshuk

Even if it never happens, it is not India to worry.


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## LCA Tejas

Kinshuk said:


> Even if it never happens, it is not India to worry.



Why do u say that man, it sure is a worry... dont say that...


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## marcos98

*Tejas on runway*


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## krish

LCA Tejas said:


> indeed it is... first is first....



seri da poodhum pearumai come back to the topic


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> It's never going to happen by March 2011.



How about we bet on this??

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## LCA Tejas

krish said:


> seri da poodhum pearumai come back to the topic



enna pa? Seriya thaane sonnen? LCA tejas Is going to fly in tamil nadu first... yippie, I will witness it fly...


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## BlackenTheSky

Which Aircraft its gonna replace.?


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## LCA Tejas

dez said:


> Which Aircraft its gonna replace.?



will replace The Mig 21's aircrafts, however the bison series of Mig 21 will remain till 2020....


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## Hyde

@ LCA Tejas / Indian members

With all due respect mate i want to know something. Why India have so many indegineous projects like LCA, Pakfa, MCA and the list goes on. I want to know don't you think if India had concentrate on 1 or 2 projects only at a time they could have speed up the process of indeginization after concentrating on one or two projects only? and also would have opted for their best indiginazation program and buy more aircrafts in numbers to reduce costs too........ i mean just look at so many projects first and then you will buy 100s of aircrafts seperately..... why not concentrate only on 1-2 projects like Pakistan did on JF-17 and buy in large number instead.

I mean first look at the aircrafts you are using..... MIG21, MIG 27, MIG 29, SU30 MKI, Jaguars, Mirages and don't know if i am missing any..... then you guyz are going to have another MMRCA, PAKFA, LCA, MCA and the last goes on. Why you need so many platforms at a single time....... why not go for One PAKFA instead in large numbers and one other indegineous program to reduce the costs of both aircrafts and training etc............

Just my opinion with no bad intentions

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## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> @ LCA Tejas / Indian members
> 
> With all due respect mate i want to know something. Why India have so many indegineous projects like LCA, Pakfa, MCA and the list goes on. I want to know don't you think if India had concentrate on 1 or 2 projects only at a time they could have speed up the process of indeginization after concentrating on one or two projects only? and also would have opted for their best indiginazation program and buy more aircrafts in numbers to reduce costs too........ i mean just look at so many projects first and then you will buy 100s of aircrafts seperately..... why not concentrate only on 1-2 projects like Pakistan did on JF-17 and buy in large number instead.
> 
> I mean first look at the aircrafts you are using..... MIG21, MIG 27, MIG 29, SU30 MKI, Jaguars, Mirages and don't know if i am missing any..... then you guyz are going to have another MMRCA, PAKFA, LCA, MCA and the last goes on. Why you need so many platforms at a single time....... why not go for One PAKFA instead in large numbers and one other indegineous program to reduce the costs of both aircrafts and training etc............
> 
> Just my opinion with no bad intentions



Yes buddy, I can explain it to you..... Our govt promotes R&D in India than Importing to be frank with you... You not only take in any field, may it be renewable source of energy or Defense , India has R&D departments in the fields like any other country...

We are taking up a task of Submarine,Aircraft carriers, LCA,MCA,FGFA , at the same time, but these are Not clashing as these are taken Up buy various departments Of DRDO, DRDO by itself has more than 50 R&D departments.... And The govt of India is ready to give money for R&D... and We are doing it now because we are having a dedicated Defense minister Mr AK.Anthony....

India is a very vast Country, It has poverty, but cannot afford to compromise on its defense because of The region we are in....

MCA will be only taken up after LCA.... And TOT from FGFA is granted so the DRDO can go a steap ahead keeping the technology as a base and indulge in MCA....And comparing to other countries, our defense spending is low, as we spend just 3&#37; of our GDP.... So We have a better economy, we can afford so much R&D at the same time without Disturbing defense purchases....

We want our country to Be a developed country and Export good quality weapon systems in the future.. so we are sowing a seed today for better tomorrow...

*And May I know what are the Indeginious equipments JF-17 is carrying? Sorry I couldnt find it on web*

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## Hyde

LCA Tejas said:


> Yes buddy, I can explain it to you..... Our govt promotes R&D in India than Importing to be frank with you... You not only take in any field, may it be renewable source of energy or Defense , India has R&D departments in the fields like any other country...
> 
> We are taking up a task of Submarine,Aircraft carriers, LCA,MCA,FGFA , at the same time, but these are Not clashing as these are taken Up buy various departments Of DRDO, DRDO by itself has more than 50 R&D departments.... And The govt of India is ready to give money for R&D... and We are doing it now because we are having a dedicated Defense minister Mr AK.Anthony....
> 
> India is a very vast Country, It has poverty, but cannot afford to compromise on its defense because of The region we are in....
> 
> MCA will be only taken up after LCA.... And TOT from FGFA is granted so the DRDO can go a steap ahead keeping the technology as a base and indulge in MCA....
> 
> *And May I know what are the Indeginious equipments JF-17 is carrying? Sorry I couldnt find it on web*



oh well i am nill in defense.... so other dear members might be able to help you answer your question

But all i was saying is........ why keep 8-10 platforms at the same time where even the devoleped countries opt to choose 2-4 platforms at a time?

thanks for your detailed reply


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## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> oh well i am nill in defense.... so other dear members might be able to help you answer your question
> 
> But all i was saying is........ why keep 8-10 platforms at the same time where even the devoleped countries opt to choose 2-4 platforms at a time?
> 
> thanks for your detailed reply



You are welcome sir, the developed countries are researching on new , but we are researching on stuffs which are already built... the only thing we are doing is creating our own technology....

India is taking up a task of making its own Weapon systems rather purchasing it... I dont thing there is anything wrong in it...

We Buy many aircrafts, but when we can ourselves develop a good aircraft, why go for another one... Its applicable for all the platforms...

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## Hyde

LCA Tejas said:


> You are welcome sir, the developed countries are researching on new , but we are researching on stuffs which are already built... the only thing we are doing is creating our own technology....
> 
> India is taking up a task of making its own Weapon systems rather purchasing it... I dont thing there is anything wrong in it...
> 
> We Buy many aircrafts, but when we can ourselves develop a good aircraft, why go for another one... Its applicable for all the platforms...


well feel free to invent the product that has already been invented 

No worries, its your money, your country, your resources......... so if you feel comfortable with it........ best of luck


----------



## zeus

sudhir007 said:


> any news abt MMR induction coze it hald on next month.



Tejas LSP-3 will be first to have MMR ,Fine tuning of MMR and software bugs are been sorted out ,HAL wants radar to be fully working on all modes that's the reasons why its taking time ,but Ground trials on LSP-3 and LSP-4 have already been done only because of MMR their are waiting their first flight


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## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> well feel free to invent the product that has already been invented
> 
> No worries, its your money, your country, your resources......... so if you feel comfortable with it........ best of luck



You got me wrong there sir, Inventing a the products which has already been invented is not what we are doing...

Why is China working of JF-17???? wasnt that an Invented technology either??? the only thing is that You created your own technology in making it rather than Buying... You built JF-17 on the lines of other 4th gen aircrafts... does that make it not yours?

LCA ,MCA,FGFA are the Same.... its a proven technology, India will study it, and develop aircraft of Indian origin... Hope you understand better now...

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## Hyde

LCA Tejas said:


> You got me wrong there sir, Inventing a the products which has already been invented is not what we are doing...
> 
> Why is China working of JF-17???? wasnt that an Invented technology either??? the only thing is that You created your own technology in making it rather than Buying...
> 
> LCA ,MCA,FGFA are the Same.... its a proven technology, India will study it, and develop aircraft of Indian origin... Hope you understand better now...



yes i have understood Sir,

thanks for your time

Best of Luck India  (as long as they stay away from Pakistani borders)

As i always say...... Rich and technologically advanced South Asia is in interest of everybody....... If India, China, Iran and Afghanistan all become rich....... i am sure Pakistani will be rich automatically......... look at the european countries bordering with UK, France and Germany. They became rich automatically for collaborations with their neighbours.

I am sure one day South Asia will give a tough time to Europe...... and i feel that day is not very far

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## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> yes i have understood Sir,
> 
> thanks for your time
> 
> Best of Luck India  (as long as they stay away from Pakistani borders)



You are welcome mate.... And thanks, Our weapons are to defend not offend... relax.


----------



## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> As i always say...... Rich and technologically advanced South Asia is in interest of everybody....... If India, China, Iran and Afghanistan all become rich....... i am sure Pakistani will be rich automatically......... look at the european countries bordering with UK, France and Germany. They became rich automatically for collaborations with their neighbours.
> 
> I am sure one day South Asia will give a tough time to Europe...... and i feel that day is not very far



Iam sure too, as now India and Pakistan are on talks, We are pretty sure of that happening, Imagine an aircraft developed by CHINA,India,Russia and Pakistan... can you deny that from becoming a world class fighter jet? 

We will come across that day soon... Something like Indo-Pak fighter typhoon.... how about that?


----------



## TheBraveHeart

Zaki said:


> @ LCA Tejas / Indian members
> 
> With all due respect mate i want to know something. Why India have so many indegineous projects like LCA, Pakfa, MCA and the list goes on. I want to know don't you think if India had concentrate on 1 or 2 projects only at a time they could have speed up the process of indeginization after concentrating on one or two projects only? and also would have opted for their best indiginazation program and buy more aircrafts in numbers to reduce costs too........ i mean just look at so many projects first and then you will buy 100s of aircrafts seperately..... why not concentrate only on 1-2 projects like Pakistan did on JF-17 and buy in large number instead.
> 
> I mean first look at the aircrafts you are using..... MIG21, MIG 27, MIG 29, SU30 MKI, Jaguars, Mirages and don't know if i am missing any..... then you guyz are going to have another MMRCA, PAKFA, LCA, MCA and the last goes on. Why you need so many platforms at a single time....... why not go for One PAKFA instead in large numbers and one other indegineous program to reduce the costs of both aircrafts and training etc............
> 
> Just my opinion with no bad intentions



Dude u seem to confuse between the various ongoing projects..and the different aircraft types..past/present/future...

To start with India requires a minimum of 42 operating squadrons with 16-20 planes each, at any time to secure its interests..but at present operates only ~32 squadrons. Dont compare it with Pakistans coz PAF has very less ground area to cover and doesn't have two nuclear powered enemies breathing down for its neck in unison. Also, it can't fund so many projects due to economic problems however they would certainly wish to. 

Earlier India fielded a large number of Mig's-21,23,27 which were comparatively cheap and readily available from Russia but were not potent enough...So when opportunity came,the IAF went with Jaguars, Mirages and Mig-29 kind of planes with different capabilities i.e ground attack to air to air to BVR attack, to check on the costs(operating as well buying, Indian economy wasn't flourishing then) they were inducted in less numbers. In early 2000 Su-30MKI were inducted which were much better than Mig-29 and were multi-performance capable.At this point India had a well behaving economy to support its demands and therefore a huge chunk had been ordered. That explains need for so many different types.

Now regarding the projects, LCA began in early 1990's, it initially went at snails pace due to numerous sanctions/embargoes that were put on us. It was supposed to replace all Mig-21,23 but due to 
delays it is will take a decade more since more than 200 are supposed to be inducted.

The induction of MMRCA is to quickly fill a void in the no. of squadrons as well as replace a few Mig-21.

PAK-FA is supposed to be a future plane capable of projecting India as a global power and to deter China in the future. These planes going to be inducted in ~2020 ....so atleast a decade from now when Su-30Mki would have lost its shine. 

MCA is more of a ground attack plane which is supposed to replace Mig-27,Jaguars. The project hasn't begun as such and is in preliminary stages but is supposed to be successful in ~2025(optimistic view) when those oldies mentioned would retire..

So looking at a very optimistic situation these are the figures IAF may have in 2020 

LCA- 150+
FGFA-20+
MIG-29-50+
Mirages-50+
MMRCA-120+
Su-30MKI-230+
Jaguars-~100

Later IAF would only have Tejas(200+), FGFA(200), MMRCA(125) and Su-30MKI(230) for multi role/air dominance and MCA(200) for ground attack.

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## jha

@marcos
seems to be a drag race in first pic...who won...??


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## sudhir007

zeus said:


> Tejas LSP-3 will be first to have MMR ,Fine tuning of MMR and software bugs are been sorted out ,HAL wants radar to be fully working on all modes that's the reasons why its taking time ,but Ground trials on LSP-3 and LSP-4 have already been done only because of MMR their are waiting their first flight


I read some where that drdo working with elta group from Israel to resolving the problem in MMR is it finish. 
What about desi AESA ????


----------



## hembo

jha said:


> @marcos
> seems to be a drag race in first pic...who won...??



The Pick-up???


----------



## swasthika

Nice post ,i like it


----------



## abdul1

CSIO-developed technology to be used in next generation fighter aircraft

The Head Up Display (HUD), developed by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO), Chandigarh, would soon be used in the next generation aircraft.

*The CSIO recently completed the last phase of transfer of total 20 units of HUD to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which would be fabricated in the Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) to be used by the Air Force. Not only the LCAs, the CSIO has also received order to develop 200 more items of equipment for the next generation aircrafts.*

The CSIO is now in the process of development of the HUD systems for SU-30 MKI, Jaguar and MiG series aircraft. Dr Pawan Kapur, Director CSIO, said the organisation has recently received an order to develop 200 more HUD for the next generation aircrafts.
*
&#8220;The technology successfully developed and displayed to the Air Force would be subsequently used by them. It is a long-term programme which would be further implemented in the next generation aircrafts,&#8221; *said Kapur. 

The HUD is supposed to be superior to similar systems in the international market.

According to Dr Kapur, *&#8220;The CSIO equipment is noiseless and offers a better field of view. It is compact, reliable, non-reflective and designed for high-performance aircraft. HAL is undertaking the fabrication of HUD in the LCAs under close monitoring with CSIO. Various institutes and research bodies including HAL, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are involved in the process.&#8221;*

After* trials with LCA-TD2 aircrafts, the HUD technology has been successfully developed and integrated with these aircrafts and also the feasibility study of HUD for HJT aircrafts is completed. The HUD for the HJT, a follow-up project of the Tejas HUD, is more compact and lighter, with some more features incorporated into it.* 

The HUD is an opto-electronic device installed above the cockpit&#8217;s instruments with its screen at the pilot&#8217;s level. It provides information on the aircraft&#8217;s flight parameters like speed, direction, altitude, weapon-status, among others.

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## sudhir007

Any new abt new enigne(ej200 or ge414epe) for MK-II coze last time I read that winner should be arounce on march 2010.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1312 Test Flights successfully. (26-Feb-10).


LCA has completed 1312 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-130,PV3-197,LSP1-55,LSP2-142,PV5-8). 
(26-Feb-10)Tejas-LCA


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## sancho

From wiki:


> The airframe of the naval variant of the Tejas will be modified with a nose droop to provide improved view during landing approach, and wing leading edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach.The LEVCONs are control surfaces that extend from the wing-root leading edge and thus afford *better low-speed handling for the LCA, which would otherwise be slightly hampered due to the increased drag that results from its delta-wing design. As an added benefit, the LEVCONs will also increase controllability at high angles of attack (AoA).*



Are these comparable to the movable LERX of Pak Fa? 

All other actual delta wing fighters have canards, so if HAL develop these LEVCONs for N-LCA (which will be based on LCA MK2) anyway, why shouldn't IAF LCA MK2 get them?

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## ejaz007

*India Plans To Induct LCA in 2011*
By vivek raghuvanshi 
Published: 8 Mar 2010 12:42

NEW DELHI - India expects to induct the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), already delayed by more than 15 years, into the Air Force by March 2011, said Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony.

Antony provided the date in a written reply to the Indian Parliament March 8, adding that a high-level review is being conducted quarterly by the chief of the Air Staff and monthly by the deputy chief of the Air Staff. 

The Air Force has already inducted 20 LCAs into the Initial Operational Clearance stage. The service has a requirement for more than 200 LCA-type aircraft.

LCA weapon installation is proceeding, with the integration of a multimode radar to the weapons suite nearing completion, Defence Ministry sources said.

"There was a delay in the development of LCA due to certain technical complexities and denial of critical technologies. $717.8 million was sanctioned for the development of LCA, which includes manufacture of eight numbers of limited series production aircraft. An additional $538.2 million has been approved by the government for LCA Phase-II program," Antony told Parliament.

Conceived in 1983, LCA is an advanced technology, single-seat, single-engine, supersonic, lightweight, all-weather, multirole, air superiority fighter designed for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea combat roles.

India Plans To Induct LCA in 2011 - Defense News

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## LCA Tejas

a great news indeed, thanks buddy


----------



## LCA Tejas

I love My LCA Tejas, its beautiful and deadly

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## sudhir007

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

A contract for the procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration was signed with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on March 31, 2006. The total contract cost is Rs. 2701.70 crore. Delay in LCA production is primarily due to refinements carried out in the development phase. A total of Rs. 1712.11 crore has been paid to HAL till December 31, 2009 for the LCA Programme. There was a delay in the development of LCA due to certain technical complexities and denial of critical technologies. Rs. 3301.78 crore was sanctioned for the development of LCA, which includes manufacture of eight numbers of Limited Series Production aircraft. Additional Rs. 2475.78 crore has been approved by the Government for LCA Phase-II programme. 

A high level review is being conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month. LCA is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Sivasami C and others in Lok Sabha today. 

Samir / RAJ

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## sudhir007

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Deficiencies Dog LCA Navy: Govt



The Indian government told Parliament today that "deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the [LCA Navy]. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design." Read my recent update on the LCA Navy here.


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## sudhir007

Tejas for aircraft carrier ships of navy

The prototype of the naval variant of Tejas aircraft is being built for aircraft carrier. The project has lagged behind its schedule due to various requirements connected with the development of a new aircraft. 

Deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the aircraft. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine / airframe design. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Dr. Gyan Prakash Pilania and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today.
PIB Press Release

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## LCA Tejas

sudhir007 said:


> Tejas for aircraft carrier ships of navy
> 
> The prototype of the naval variant of Tejas aircraft is being built for aircraft carrier. The project has lagged behind its schedule due to various requirements connected with the development of a new aircraft.
> 
> Deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the aircraft. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine / airframe design.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Dr. Gyan Prakash Pilania and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today.
> PIB Press Release



Wow thanks for the news buddy.... LCA is well on the line.... cool

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## Mrityunjay Rai

Windjammer said:


> The detail shown by HAL on LCA at Aero India certainly leaves nothing to be desired.
> 1; Take off distance...............1300 M
> 2: Landing distance................1700 M
> *3: Combat Radius.................. 300 KM*
> 
> (IMG:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S36pQgBKyyI/AAAAAAAABOk/iYPLfQ-UkfE/s1600/CIMG2779.JPG)
> 
> 
> (IMG:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/SxKldW3HK_I/AAAAAAAAAoU/nNbiDdLtOcA/s1600/Image050.jpg)



And here is reply for your desire................


_Specifications (HAL Tejas)
Three view of the Tejas

General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
* Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
* Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
* Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
* Empty weight: 5680kg[64] (14,330 lb)
* Loaded weight: 9,500 kg (20,945 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 15,500 kg (31,967 lb)
* Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
* External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
* *Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))*
* Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
* Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
_

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## LCA Tejas

Navy LCA

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## sudhir007

lca Picture in Aero India 2009 ej200 with tvc engine

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> lca Picture in Aero India 2009 ej200 with tvc engine



Sudhir, are these pictures from Eurojet, or from HAL?


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Sudhir, are these pictures from Eurojet, or from HAL?


not too sure but i think it is from eurojet camp which is in AI-09. They just want to show engine ability it will cut down the take of distance and also i dnt think the ge-414 provide us tvc and super-cruiser.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> not too sure but i think it is from eurojet camp which is in AI-09. They just want to show engine ability it will cut down the take of distance and also i dnt think the ge-414 provide us tvc and super-cruiser.


GE had developed TVC too for an F16 prototype if I'm not wrong, but not with this engine, SC is a different point, because keep in mind the the Gripen NG with the same GE 414 proved SC too. However, I don't think the engine alone will be the reason for this capability, also the aerodynamic design and the T/W ratio possibly (I'm not a pro in this, so please correct me if I'm wrong). But the weight problem of LCA MK1 seems to be solved and is now on the same level as Gripen C/D, so no matter which engine we choose SC could be possible.
Personally, with all infos that was available about the engines, their capabilities and moreover the ease of integration, it would be surprising if the EJ 200 wouldn't be chosen. It offers clearly more advantages, with only costs as a downer.

Back to the pic, I also expect that it is from EJ, because it would be surprising if HAL advertise with this capability, before the engine evaluation is finished. Just asked for a confirmation of you if possible.

Btw, I answered to your question regarding C17 and An 124, but the thread was moved to the IAF discussion thread.


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> GE had developed TVC too for an F16 prototype if I'm not wrong, but not with this engine, SC is a different point, because keep in mind the the Gripen NG with the same GE 414 proved SC too. However, I don't think the engine alone will be the reason for this capability, also the aerodynamic design and the T/W ratio possibly (I'm not a pro in this, so please correct me if I'm wrong). But the weight problem of LCA MK1 seems to be solved and is now on the same level as Gripen C/D, so no matter which engine we choose SC could be possible.
> Personally, with all infos that was available about the engines, their capabilities and moreover the ease of integration, it would be surprising if the EJ 200 wouldn't be chosen. It offers clearly more advantages, with only costs as a downer.
> 
> Back to the pic, I also expect that it is from EJ, because it would be surprising if HAL advertise with this capability, before the engine evaluation is finished. Just asked for a confirmation of you if possible.
> 
> Btw, I answered to your question regarding C17 and An 124, but the thread was moved to the IAF discussion thread.



I think only 2 reason if ej200 not chosen 
1. the goi right now want to guy usa product u can see in some resent buying
2. and second is the price.


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## jha

so now we will be getting super-cruise with LCA ....this plane will be one kick@$$ plane when inducted..
@sancho and sudhir..
carry on guys ...yours is the discussion for which i look into this thread...

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## LCA Tejas

LCA with super cruise?? Come on guys??? hey is that true?? LCA cannot supercruise. We will need to redesign the air intakes... I dunno if am right, but can it?? really?


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## jha

i thought just more powerful engine and a little alteration in air intakes would do the job....waiting foe experts like sancho to clear the matter..


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## sudhir007

*ej200*

Type- Twin shaft turbofan
Fan- 3 stage
Fan compression ratio- 4.2:1
Compressor- 5-stage
Total compression ratio- 26:1
HP turbine- Single stage
LP turbine- Single stage
Combustion chamber- Annular
Afterburner/Nozzle- Multi-stage/Convergent/Divergent
Bypass ratio- 0.4:1
Thrust:weight ratio- ca. 10:1
Airflow- 75/77 kg/s
Max. thrust with afterburner- 90kN (20,000 lbf)
Max. thrust without afterburner- 60kN (13,500 lbf)
Specific fuel consumption (dry)- 21-23 g/kNs
Specific fuel consumption (with afterburner)- 47-49 g/kNs
Weight- ca. 1,000kg
Length- 4 m
Diameter (fan)- 737m











EUROJET has successfully delivered all 363 Tranche 1 production engines by the end 2006. Production engines have achieved 50,000 EFH (Engine FlyingHours) in the four-nation Air Forces and Instrumented Production Aircraft(IPA) in June 2007. First Tranche 2 production engines are currently being delivered.

*Digital Engine Control and Monitoring Unit*

The EJ200 engine powering the Eurofighter Typhoon features from Tranche II a further step in engine control and monitoring technology, integrating all elements necessary for Digital Electronic engine Control and Monitoring into a single unit (known as DECMU) as well as incorporating potential for future enhancements. The EJ200 DECMU combines the functionality of the engine mountedDigital Electronic Control Unit (DECU) and the aircraft mounted Engine Monitoring Unit (EMU).

*Control System element*

The full authority Digital Electronic Control and Monitoring Unit is engine-mounted for accessibility and is a twin-lane, fault tolerant system linked to the aircraft flight control system. It constantly monitors the functional status of the engine and allows precise, responsive and safe control at all times.

The digital electronic control system as part of the electronic sub system processes all inputs from the engine sensor data and aircraft inputs, in order to control the hydro-mechanical elements of the system. All signal conditioning of the engine sensors used for control purposes is carried out by the DECMU.

*Monitoring System element*

The health monitoring system element of DECMU includes features such as individual component life usage, continuous vibration & oil debris monitoring, and event reporting. The whole engine is designed for on-condition maintenance and low life cycle costs, which is supported by this technology.

Data is collected, stored and processed on-aircraft within the DECMU to produce information on the status of engine life usage, condition, incident status & testability. The data is downloaded to a Ground Support System (GSS) after flight for further detailed analysis.






*DECMU Benefits*

The EJ200 engine enhancement for Tranche II in the form of the Digital Electronic Control and Monitoring Unit provides benefits in terms of cost, mass and reliability.

The DECMU system has been developed by the European Military Engine Consortium EUROJET Turbo GmbH, led by the German company MTU Aero Engines in partnership with AVIO, ITP, Rolls-Royce and European hardware suppliers.

With this advanced and innovative Control and Monitoring System the EJ200 powerplant sets new standards in military engine technology, supporting both current and future capabilities of the Eurofighter Typhoon.


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## sudhir007

old new but if you are ej200 fan.....


> *IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..*
> Bangalore: The geopolitical factor that determined state-owned Air India's choice of commercial aircraft in the mid-2000 may come into play again in the Indian government's selection of engines for its indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.
> 
> In 2005, when the national carrier's order for 50 aircraft worth $6 billion went to US aerospace company Boeing, its French rival Airbus Industrie had said it was the "geopolitical factor" that had clinched the deal.
> 
> DNA Money has learned that Indian Air Force (IAF), which is the user of LCA Tejas, has in its recommendations to the Ministry of Defence favoured the purchase of European aerospace company Eurojet's EJ200 over US aerospace firm General Electric's F-414. These are the only two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines.
> An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power. The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines.
> 
> "The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower than F-414 (95+ kilonewton), but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.
> 
> The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."
> 
> He, however, said the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said.
> 
> But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation.
> 
> A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company.
> 
> He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."
> 
> The two major aircraft and engine manufacturers are aggressively lobbying for the engine deal because its outcome will have a bearing on India's order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) worth over $10 billion.
> 
> "The government is likely to go for aircraft, which is powered by the same engine as Tejas. One argument is that if these fighter jets come in time, then any delay in the Tejas programme will have less significance on the IAF," said the analyst.


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## KEETARP

EU2000 engine definitely has capability to provide sustained supercruise 
Just by looking at specs of EU2000 engine-
Max thrust without afterburner close to 65KN in my opinion will bring T/W ratio of TEJAS close to it being mach 1 in perfect clean state

Whether this supercruise will have fuel fraction/fuel efficiency acceptable according to standard is to be seen.
If fuel efficiency is absent , there is no point of supercruise.

But with lesser payload , it can have fuel fraction close to 30% which will allow it to supercruise, internal fuel load if somehow can be brought up will surely get better ratio.

Compression ratio 26:1 is quite good enough, only problem is Air flow , if air intakes of tejas can give a sustained O2 xygen to allow modular bladed engine have this compresssion ratio , thrust can be used to act as (virtual Ramjet) it will go supersonic without extra fuel and afterburner.

This is my thinking - I am no expert , and above all a doctor , so may be some technical blunders may be there.
But whatever i wrote - Are bits and pieces i gathered while talking to my Batch mates in Pune-Lohegaon air base ( They flew the first TVC equipped afterburner)


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## Dark Angel

Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected. Both engines say they meet the maximum thrust requirements demanded by the IAF. The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering. Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.

Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.

Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.

Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.

Point 5, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Which Engine Will Power The Tejas?

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## nad1

Neo said:


> Can someone please post the chronology of LCA's development?
> Thanks!



lca lca ---- tejas ----


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## sancho

LCA Tejas said:


> LCA with super cruise?? Come on guys??? hey is that true?? LCA cannot supercruise. We will need to redesign the air intakes... I dunno if am right, but can it?? really?





jha said:


> i thought just more powerful engine and a little alteration in air intakes would do the job....waiting foe experts like sancho to clear the matter..



I didn't say LCA already have, or would have SC for sure, nor am I an expert, but lets compare the facts and try to figure it out:

We know that the Eurofighter can SC with the EJ 200 engine, as well as the Gripen NG with the GE 414G engine and both engines are on offer for LCA MK2.

If I'm not wrong, the Gripen NG has a weight of 7,1t for the single seat and 7,4t for the twin seat which proved SC. The engine has a dry thrust of 62,3kN. 
LCA MK1 has a weight of 5,7t (not sure if single, or twin seat) and all reports regarding LCA MK2 says nothing about airframe changes for more internal fuel, weapon stations, or payload similar to Gripen NG. The difference most likely will only be new techs like a new engine, or AESA radar, which means even if we take the same GE 414 engine, LCA MK2 still should be around 1t lighter than the Gripen NG. 
Not to forget that the LCA also has a modern delta wing design, just like the EF and the Gripen NG.
So if the design and thrust is similar, but LCA MK2 will be clearly lighter, what could limit the it from SC?

Possibly the air intakes, if they are not big, or good designed enough. Maybe even the hot climate in India, we know that the MMRCA trials will be held in different areas in India, to see how the performance of the fighters will differ. UAE wants higher thrust engines for Rafale, because they wasn't satisfied with the engine performance in such hot conditions.

Imo, the better the thrust to weight ratio and the air intake design, the higher are the chances for SC capabilities.

Once again: 

Gripen NG with GE414 engine- 62,3kN dry @ 7,1t weight
LCA MK2 with same engine - 62,3kN dry @ ~6,1t weight
LCA MK2 with EJ 200 engine - 60+kN dry @ less than 6t weight


But as I said, I am not an expert so please feel free to disagree, or comment on this!

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## sancho

Dark Angel said:


> Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe *that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected.*



Important point which guarantees fast induction of LCA MK2!



Dark Angel said:


> The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering.



The diameter of GE 404 and 414 is the same, but the 414 still will needs airframe changes, because it needs bigger air intakes which was the reason for new air intakes at F18SH compared to older F18 Hornet and the same at Gripen NG, compared to older Gripen C/D!



Dark Angel said:


> Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.



And in one of the livefist articles from this year, they confirmed that no airframe changes are needed, not even at the air intakes!



Dark Angel said:


> Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.



Means the EJ 200 weighs around 990Kg, which is even less than the GE 404 IN20 in LCA MK1 (1035Kg)



Dark Angel said:


> Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.



First of all, that is the afterburner thrust, the difference in dry thrust is only 2,3kN! Moreover both companies have offered more thrust, but while GE is searching for a foreign partner to further develop the 414 engine, which means more time for development and most likely also more money to fund the development, the EF Tranche 3 will most likely get a thrust improvment anyway:



> *Future of the EJ200 *
> 
> Engine uprating
> 
> The EuroJet consortium were required to build an engine (often referred to as EJ2x0) which had at least a 20% growth potential. There are already plans to carry out the necessary modifications to reach this higher (Stage-1) output in the 2000 to 2005 timeframe. Such an improvement will require a new Low Pressure Compressor (raising the pressure ratio to around 4.6) and an upgraded fan (increasing flow by around 10%). *This would result in the dry thrust increasing to some 72kN (or 16,200lbf ) with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf).* Given recent increases in the weight of the Typhoon it may not be unexpected to find this upgrade performed in the near future.
> 
> More interestingly perhaps is Rolls-Royce and EuroJet's plan to increase the output 30% above the baseline specification as a Stage-2 modification. Such an upgrade will require more substantial plantwide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio. These upgrades would yield a new dry thrust of around 78kN (or 17,500lbf) with a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf). *The indications are that these improvements will come on stream between 2005 and 2010, in time for the Typhoon's Mid Life Upgrade expected around 2016.*



Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

So EJ 200 for LCA could be much closer, if not even better in terms of thrust.




Dark Angel said:


> Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.


EADS, one of the members of the EF consortium is also involved in the LCA development, as a consultant to solve the weight problems. That means they know about the requirements of the programm as well and it should be clear, that one of their solutions will be the integration of an lighter engine, like their EJ 200!




Dark Angel said:


> Point 5, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.



By the fact that LCA development is totally delayed and they already thinking about the technically more advanced MCA, the aim should be getting LCA MK2 done as fast as possible and as much ToT, or commonality to future MCA instead of LCA.


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## satishkumarcsc

Well GE 414 is a proven design for marine operations....Does the EJ 200 have any chance when they play this card? Everyone knows the navy is also after it.


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## jha

good analysis sancho...

anyways since everyone here is speculating lets hope for the best.


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## Dark Angel

I personelly think that we are gonna opt for GE414-400 as Mark1 and maybe just maybe EJ with TV and Supercruise in MK2


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## sudhir007

*DRDO in a fix over Antony remarks on naval plane: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.*

*DRDO in a fix over Antony remarks on naval plane*

Officials in the higher echelons of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are stumped by defence minister A. K. Antony's written response to a question in the Rajya Sabha.

The minister had said: "Deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the (Tejas Navy) aircraft. The DRDO is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design."

Though no one in the DRDO was willing to go on record, a senior project official of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft in Bangalore said a problem with the "airframe" could not arise simply because the prototype was still being built.

"We have built the external structure. We are now fitting the internal equipment like electricals, hydraulics and plumbing," he said, adding that the aerodynamics of the naval version of Tejas was the same as that of the two-seater trainer version flown in November last. "But since the structural load on the naval Tejas will be much higher, its airframe will have to be tougher," he added.

Officials at the DRDO headquarters said they had sent a draft response to the question Antony answered in Parliament. " We wonder where the mix- up between our response and the minister's reply could have occurred," an official said.

As the system for replies to Parliament posers go, the question is first processed by a Parliament cell of the defence ministry and then sent to the department or agency to which it pertains.

Based on these inputs, a draft reply is prepared and then vetted by a designated joint secretary and then the defence secretary. Then it reaches the minister's office where it is once again examined by his private secretary. For a 'misinformation' to pass through scrutiny of so many experienced hands is a rarity.

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## xuxu1457

jha said:


> i thought just more powerful engine and a little alteration in air intakes would do the job....waiting foe experts like sancho to clear the matter..



Funny,Body structural of the 3rd ge-fighter is less strength than the 4th ,as if you put rocket engine in your bicycle,it can't reach the speed 100KM/h,before that its body will fracture~


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## jha

thanks for putting it that way..

anyways lets wait and watch..


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well GE 414 is a proven design for marine operations....Does the EJ 200 have any chance when they play this card? Everyone knows the navy is also after it.


Difficult to say, the EF consortium made studies about the naval version of EF and proposed it for IN's RFI too, so a naval version of the EJ 200 must be possible too. 
However, looking at numbers of LCA and N-LCA to be ordered and the status of N-LCA development, it should be clear that the main focus lies on engines for IAF LCA MK2. These will come in numbers, whereas N-LCA is just a small addition to Mig 29K.


Dark Angel said:


> I personelly think that we are gonna opt for GE414-400 as Mark1 and maybe just maybe EJ with TV and Supercruise in MK2


Unlilely, because GE 414 needs at least air intake changes, but LCA MK one is already in production, so there won't be any change that could cause delays.

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## Indian-Devil

xuxu1457 said:


> Funny,Body structural of the 3rd ge-fighter is less strength than the 4th ,as if you put rocket engine in your bicycle,it can't reach the speed 100KM/h,before that its body will fracture~



First you need to check we are not discussing any bicycle here, its an Aircraft. An Aircraft which is already flying and we are discussing for an engine which is giving 15% higher thrust than the existing one. And why you are so worried abt it , we will not come to you for its body fracture.


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## jha

some news about the EW suite for LCA..

In mid 2006 it was reported that India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will have a sophisticated electronic warfare system for both offensive and defensive purpose. A agreement was Signed between Defense Research and Development Organizations Laboratory, the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Elisra group which is owned Elbit System of Israel. The Joint venture will give birth to the "Mayavi" EWS which will be used by Indian Air Force on the Tejas and the Israeli Air Force on their F-35 JSF which its purchasing from USA. Mayavi is supposed to be the most effective Electronic warfare system when it enters service.

FEATURES:
1. It will have Radar Warning Receiver to detect Radio waves. This will notify the pilot when he is being engaged by either radar lock or missile attack.

2. It will have Self Protection Jammer for radar deception. This will jam ground based radars, on-board radars and incoming missile by interfering with its radio frequency.

3. It will have Laser Warning System to detect laser emission of laser guided weapons.

4. It will have Missile Approach Warning System which will automatically detect incoming missiles of all types and warn the pilot.

5. It will have a standard chuff/ flare deployment system which is common on most fighter today.


WORK-SHARING:
Under the agreement the work was done at the DARE laboratory in Bangalore with 70 &#37; funding done by the Indian side and remaining by the Israeli. Under the agreement Elisra produced the the missile approach system and jamming pods where as DARE undertook the job of developing its cooling system, electromagnetic interference and susceptibility system as well as integration of all the systems on the aircraft. The Joint venture is believed to be in its final stages.


CONCLUSION:
Mayavi looks promising venture to me and should give the LCA a lethal edge over its possible rivals like the JF-17 and the J-10 which have a relatively immature EWS. This system will also provide great deal of defensive capability to the Tejas against enemy Surface to air missiles and advance air to air missiles. In today's ever complicated battle field where advancement and complexity provides the best results the Mayavi will provide a great sense of confidence in the pilots as it is cutting edge and complex. It will be the most advance EWS system in the world when it service and I won't be surprised if IAF orders it on their Su-30MKI and FGFA jointly developed with Russia. 

Angle of Attack: Mayavi Electronic Warfare System

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## jha

an old but good article about MAYAWI

*India, Israel Propose Joint Electronic Warfare Venture*

India and Israel want to set up a joint venture to develop advanced electronic warfare (EW) systems for their air forces' fighter aircraft.

The proposed joint venture, the creation of which would cost around $100 million, is expected to get the go-ahead shortly with a signed deal between India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore, and the Elisra Group, Bene Beraq, Israel.

Seventy percent of the venture will be funded by DARE, which is part of the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation, with Elisra paying the remaining 30 percent.

A senior DARE scientist said the proposed venture likely will get off the ground in the next three to six months at DARE facilities in Bangalore.

Elisra will develop approach warning systems, radar jamming pods and other systems, while DARE will develop cooling systems, electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic susceptibility systems, as well as system integration in the aircraft.

The program is to be fully operational in three years

The scientist said this venture will see an advanced EW system called MAYAVI developed for India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that Israel plans to buy from the United States.

The EW system will feature advanced radar warning, radar jamming, and electronic combat and self-protection systems. It also will have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the LCA against radar-guided missiles.

Its Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures will protect aircraft against heat-seeking missiles, and be paired with the Common Missile Warning System.

"We are collaborating with Indian agencies for a number of defense programs, but, as per company policy, we do not discuss specific programs," an Elisra executive here said. The executive added that DARE was selected as a partner after trying several other defense partners in the world.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official said India wants to forge alliances with Israeli companies to develop a variety of high-end defense technologies so that the Indian Defence Forces do not have to depend on the West for critical technologies.

Elisra has helped DARE in the past to develop an EW system called Tempest for the MiG-21 bis fighter upgrade program. EW systems from Elisra also are being supplied for the licensed production in India of 140 Sukhoi Su-31 MKI aircraft at Hindustan Aeronautics, Bangalore.

The Defence Ministry official said India has procured an unspecified number of EW suites from Israel for LCA prototypes, but declined to elaborate. 

Article

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## jha

So with supercruising engine and MAYAWI suite integrated into LCA , what is this going to be ...
only thing it lacks is number of hard-points which most probably would be taken care of in MK-2..

AESA radar+MAYAWI + SUPERCRUISE + a mix of WEAPONRY ...very capable replacement of MIG-21 we are getting....

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## Indian-Devil

jha said:


> So with supercruising engine and MAYAWI suite integrated into LCA , what is this going to be ...
> only thing it lacks is number of hard-points which most probably would be taken care of in MK-2..
> 
> AESA radar+MAYAWI + SUPERCRUISE + a mix of WEAPONRY ...very capable replacement of MIG-21 we are getting....



Buddy this month end we will come to know which engines is selected for LCA. I think EJ200 should be selected as its new engine with supercruise capabilities and there is scope for thrust increase by small changes in engine ( althogh it will decrease little life span of engine by some hundred hrs).

If EJ200 is selected with some changes like supercruise , thrust vectoring then LCA Mk2 will be really a deadly Aircraft.


----------



## LCA Tejas

Yeah, Thats cool... I will be fully operational soon... Iam so glad to hear this... Hope my Kid MK2 does well...


----------



## KEETARP

Indian-Devil said:


> Buddy this month end we will come to know which engines is selected for LCA.



Any source for timeline you mentioned for selecting the engine.


----------



## Indian-Devil

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Any source for timeline you mentioned for selecting the engine.



Ya, pls check the links. 
Search for Tejas engine nears its end
Hunt for an engine for 'home-grown' Tejas nears its end -  National News ? News ? MSN India

Hope the decision come on time.


----------



## KEETARP

Indian-Devil said:


> Ya, pls check the links.
> Search for Tejas engine nears its end
> Hunt for an engine for 'home-grown' Tejas nears its end - *National News ? News ? MSN India
> 
> Hope the decision come on time.



Both your link state befor March2010
Its already passed , Lets see how much more delay
My guess is not before 2011
I am not being pessimist - But its just the way things work in India esp Defence deals


----------



## Kshatriya

Indian-Devil said:


> Buddy this month end we will come to know which engines is selected for LCA. I think EJ200 should be selected as its new engine with supercruise capabilities and there is scope for thrust increase by small changes in engine ( althogh it will decrease little life span of engine by some hundred hrs).
> 
> If EJ200 is selected with some changes like supercruise , thrust vectoring then LCA Mk2 will be really a deadly Aircraft.



ADA is ready with the design changes for both the engines, GE and EJ. Both the engines are fitted in the design tool. Though it is in the initial phase of design, after which they have to carry on the stress analysis and other checks.


----------



## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1328 Test Flights successfully. (19-Mar-10).

* LCA has completed 1328 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-130,PV3-207,LSP1-57,LSP2-146,PV5-8)

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## abdul1

With Europeans on board for consultancy regarding test plan I really see the testing speed has increased. As per some local sources integration of MMR is in final phases


----------



## sudhir007

abdul1 said:


> With Europeans on board for consultancy regarding test plan I really see the testing speed has increased. As per some local sources integration of MMR is in final phases


Already LGB & dumb bomb testing done in last yr oct.


----------



## sancho

jha said:


> So with supercruising engine and MAYAWI suite integrated into LCA , what is this going to be ...
> only thing it lacks is number of hard-points which most probably would be taken care of in MK-2..
> 
> AESA radar+MAYAWI + SUPERCRUISE + a mix of WEAPONRY ...very capable replacement of MIG-21 we are getting....


Much is possible if you think about it, the question is what does IAF/MoD want and are they ready to spend so much for the least capable fighter in the fleet?
EJ 200 and TVC would be great, but the engine is clearly more expensive than the US engine.
Only Russian, Indian and possibly Israeli weapons are claimed for LCA, there were reports about interest on Iris-T short range missile, as well as AASM guided bomb kit, which should be more expensive again. Which AESA radar will it be at the end and what about IRST?
So we might go on for a while with speculations only.


----------



## Choppers

*LCA-Tejas has completed 1330 Test Flights successfully. (22-Mar-10).*


LCA has completed 1330 Test Flights successfully 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-130,PV3-208,LSP1-58,LSP2-146,PV5-8).


----------



## KEETARP

DRDO's AESA EFFORT WITH LRDE FOR LCA and AEW 





Power rating of 3.5-5 is quite less but since it is first attempt anything will be accepted.
Everything apart DRDO logo on image does looks nice

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## Dark Angel

> Power rating of 3.5-5 is quite less but since it is first attempt anything will be accepted.
> Everything apart DRDO logo on image does looks nice






*So how is it in comparison to others in its class and we were also supposed to be in partnership with ELTA to make a new one right*


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## sancho

Dark Angel said:


> *So how is it in comparison to others in its class and we were also supposed to be in partnership with ELTA to make a new one right*



Found this so far:

*Elta 2052:* 4 -10 KVA (depending on antenna size)

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/4/36834.pdf

*Zhuk AE: * 9 KVA

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg


----------



## IBRIS

In what appears to be a major achievement for HAL and the Indian military aviation sector ,the country's first indigenously developed attack helicopter, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has made its maiden test flight. *According to unconfirmed sources the LCH serial number "ZP 4601" took to skies today.*





LCH will form the backbone of the Indian Air Force and Indian Army which are currently operating some 80 Soviet Era Mi-24's and Mi-35's. Both the Russian attack helicopters are getting old and obsolete and with Pakistani Air Force upgrading their American Cobra Attack helicopter their is serious gap in capabilities which LCH is supposed to fill.

LCH was undergoing extensive ground trails since February 4 and many were expecting it to take to skies in that month itself. The program was delayed for more than a year because of weight issues but its seems like most problems are solved now. The current prototype being tested is a non-weaponized version meant to test only the basic structure of the helicopter. Next two prototypes are expected to be weaponized. LCH will need many more hours of testing before it receives its final operation certificate. Both the Army and the Air Force have heavily invested in the project with 189 on order. LCH is expected to enter service by 2015. 
Angle of Attack: LCH makes first flight ?

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## ashisbutt

But we are yet to see a picture of this beast. Why, this time around HAL is giving us suspense. LIke never before.

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## ashisbutt

And guess what WebMaster has thanked you  COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


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## EagleEyes

What is Indian LCH based on? What is the Russian derivative.. or is this 100&#37; Indian.


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## EagleEyes

> The LCH is a derivative of the HAL Dhruv, which has already been inducted into the Indian armed forces. Using a successful and proven helicopter as the base platform is expected to conserve the project costs for the LCH, which is currently pegged at INR 3.76 Billion.
> 
> HAL Light Combat Helicopter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Never mind. Good work.

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## ashisbutt

WebMaster said:


> What is Indian LCH based on? What is the Russian derivative.. or is this 100&#37; Indian.


I'm quite sure you would have some knowledge, but then since you asked,

Its dervied from HAL Dhruv. And that you know about HAL Dhruv very much I ll stop here.


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## manish123

WebMaster said:


> What is Indian LCH based on? What is the Russian derivative.. or is this 100% Indian.



More to do with the europeans not russians as far as derivatives go.


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## Cityboy

Wow. Great news yar. . Waiting for its pics.


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## RadyLeo

Wow this is such fantastic news 

I have been waiting for this first flight since December.. finally they made it 

Can't wait to see the beauty flying.. any Bangloreans lucky enough today to catch a glimpse of the bird???

Good Job HAL.. keep it up

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## jagjitnatt

Great news. I guess people were waiting desperately for this news.

Its India's first dedicated Combat Helicopter. Looking at the history, I expect some international orders for it.

A great step forward to becoming arms producer and exporter.


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## karan.1970

WebMaster said:


> The LCH is a derivative of the HAL Dhruv, which has already been inducted into the Indian armed forces. Using a successful and proven helicopter as the base platform is expected to conserve the project costs for the LCH, which is currently pegged at INR 3.76 Billion.
> 
> HAL Light Combat Helicopter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What is really astounding is that the cost of designing an attack chopper is pegged at $ 85 million.. A new car model design by a ford or GM takes more money

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## ashisbutt

Please, How good the source is? Is the news true. Please enlighten me...


----------



## RadyLeo

Shiv Aroor is reporting the same...
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence

So far so good...


----------



## Materialistic

Apart from landing gear it looks nice and modern. I think its called the same as Planes in Helis too.

good work.

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## Comet

Good going India.


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## gowthamraj

this is i expecting daily for past two months. . . pls somebody have pictures means post here . . . i eagerly waiting to see the beauty


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## gowthamraj

Materialistic said:


> Apart from landing gear it looks nice and modern. I think its called the same as Planes in Helis too.
> 
> good work.



same only my opinion man . . . it only prototype i expect changes in it's landing wheel


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## IBRIS

TURBOMECA - Safran Group


> The Ardiden features a simple and modular design with 3 modules for easy maintenance: a reduction / accessory gearbox module, a gas generator module and a power turbine module.
> 
> The Ardiden has a TBO (Time Between Overhaul) ranging from 3,000 to 6,000 hours.
> 
> EASA certified start 2009, the Ardiden 1H1, christened "Shakti", powers the Dhruv twin-engine helicopter (formerly called ALH - Advanced Light Helicopter) built by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.) of India.
> 
> The Dhruv, re-engined with the Ardiden 1H1, made its maiden flight on January 12th 2009, in HAL&#8217;s helicopter division, Bangalore, India.


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## Dark Angel

*test pictures are not out yet*

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## desiman

exactly in one week as i had said before  Pics will be up shortly on the Modernizing Indian armed forces thread. Waiting on email from India


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## Arik

Does any one have pics of the real bird ,i am sick of seeing the mockups.


----------



## Justin Joseph

Congratulations to all Indians. And thank you WebMaster and Pakistani friends for your gesture.

One more step in the journey of indigenisation, great going India.

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## prototype

since already many nations have expressed interest in dhruv and few have purchased also

i see many international customers for lch


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## Jun

congrats, it looks good


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## Dark Angel

In what appears to be a major achievement for HAL and the Indian military aviation sector ,the country's first indigenously developed attack helicopter, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has made its maiden test flight. According to unconfirmed sources the *LCH serial number "ZP 4601*" took to skies today.
LCH will form the backbone of the Indian Air Force and Indian Army which are currently operating some 80 Soviet Era Mi-24's and Mi-35's. Both the Russian attack helicopters are getting old and obsolete and with Pakistani Air Force upgrading their American Cobra Attack helicopter their is serious gap in capabilities which LCH is supposed to fill.
LCH was undergoing extensive ground trails since February 4 and many were expecting it to take to skies in that month itself. The program was delayed for more than a year because of weight issues but its seems like most problems are solved now. The current prototype being tested is a non-weaponized version meant to test only the basic structure of the helicopter. Next two prototypes are expected to be weaponized. LCH will need many more hours of testing before it receives its final operation certificate. Both the Army and the Air Force have heavily invested in the project with *189 on order*. LCH is expected to enter service by 2015. 


Angle of Attack: LCH makes first flight ?

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## sancho

Dark Angel said:


> In what appears to be a major achievement for HAL and the Indian military aviation sector ,the country's first indigenously developed attack helicopter, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has made its maiden test flight. According to unconfirmed sources the *LCH serial number "ZP 4601*" took to skies today.
> LCH will form the backbone of the Indian Air Force and Indian Army which are currently operating some 80 Soviet Era Mi-24's and Mi-35's. Both the Russian attack helicopters are getting old and obsolete and with Pakistani Air Force upgrading their American Cobra Attack helicopter their is serious gap in capabilities which LCH is supposed to fill.
> LCH was undergoing extensive ground trails since February 4 and many were expecting it to take to skies in that month itself. The program was delayed for more than a year because of weight issues but its seems like most problems are solved now. The current prototype being tested is a non-weaponized version meant to test only the basic structure of the helicopter. Next two prototypes are expected to be weaponized. LCH will need many more hours of testing before it receives its final operation certificate. Both the Army and the Air Force have heavily invested in the project with *189 on order*. LCH is expected to enter service by 2015.
> 
> 
> Angle of Attack: LCH makes first flight ?



Now that's a good order, although I don't really understand why they still want such a small order of heavy attack helicopter then? Any idea what the unit cost could be?


----------



## gubbi

gowthamraj said:


> same only my opinion man . . . it only prototype i expect changes in it's landing wheel



IIRC, the landing gear is not supposed to be retractable, skimming lots of lbs off from the final TOW. I would rather they keep it that way if it does its job.
What would be interesting is to see the capabilities of this helo. Would it fly with all the munitions in rarefied air? Isnt that one of its primary objectives?


----------



## Dark Angel

sancho said:


> Now that's a good order, although I don't really understand why they still want such a small order of heavy attack helicopter then? Any idea what the unit cost could be?





IMHO it could be at anything between 14-17 million but as the production ramps up it will go down considerably

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## liteon

Overall specs & shape are identical to Kazan Ansat-2RC.


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## Tu tu

any news about it having air refuling capabilities?


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## aimarraul

i thought it already made the first flight last year,congratulations anyway


----------



## no_name

Tu tu said:


> any news about it having air refuling capabilities?



Do helis have air refuling capabilities? 
I just thought it dangerous with that big rotor spinning


----------



## Join



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## Join

*really a beast*

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## Kompromat

Congratulations guys !


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## gubbi

no_name said:


> Do helis have air refuling capabilities?
> I just thought it dangerous with that big rotor spinning



Yup, helos do have air-air refueling capabilities. Atleast some do.













And the risks involved!!!


----------



## faithfulguy

I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH


----------



## Join

this beauty is indeed going to be a beast in the battle field


----------



## Join

faithfulguy said:


> I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH



Why should we not???? Apache is better, its heavy fighter, but we have our own life aswell, we Have to develop aswell, not that we have to be always dependent on some one else


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## s6demon

where is the flight video or account? all i see is a painted bathtub.


----------



## Join

s6demon said:


> where is the flight video or account? all i see is a painted bathtub.



Well, Its not been put on Internet... I wonder why.... And This looks like a bathtub to u??  ... And please when U cannot make one, please dont criticize others...


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## ashisbutt

I'm already liking the lean shape of the body - LCH. Looks like a Killer.


----------



## Join

ashisbutt said:


> I'm already liking the lean shape of the body - LCH. Looks like a Killer.



yes, its looks good..... This is going to be a killer.... Well HAL is doing a good job, and This would be a platform for India to take up the project for heavy combat Helicopters.... We are well On track... Steady and smooth growth...

*SOME MORE PICTURES OF LCH*​


----------



## shag

RadyLeo said:


> Wow this is such fantastic news
> 
> I have been waiting for this first flight since December.. finally they made it
> 
> Can't wait to see the beauty flying.. any Bangloreans lucky enough today to catch a glimpse of the bird???
> 
> Good Job HAL.. keep it up



Bangalorean here,
no views yet. Its under wraps like the arihant. There is a pattern there I think.Good strategy but bad for fans.


----------



## shag

Materialistic said:


> Apart from landing gear it looks nice and modern. I think its called the same as Planes in Helis too.
> 
> good work.



I read something about retractable tricycle landing gear on LCH somewhere. not sure though and can't remember the source. But since they identified LO as one of the targets for LCH it would make sense to go for retractable landing gear.


----------



## prototype

s6demon said:


> where is the flight video or account? all i see is a painted bathtub.



and had pakistan succeded in making any bath tubs


----------



## shag

no_name said:


> Do helis have air refuling capabilities?
> I just thought it dangerous with that big rotor spinning



Yeah in fact its quiet a standard on modern helis. even older Ah-64Ds have aerial refueling. Its more complicated though I guess, with the rotor moving a lot of air about.


----------



## ashisbutt

And as Kiran mentioned in the earlier post, the cost is the biggest factor. And when this killer is manufactured in great numbers then the low cost would be the killer more than the actual heli (for the enemy  of course). 

Also, I would like to mention this,

1. LCA is taking a long time and lot of $$$ since its the first of its kind.
2. LCH did not take a long time and not too much cost (at-least comparatively) 
since it is a derived version of already home made Dhruv.
3. With the above things in mind, I'm having a great dream of MCA which, according to me should not take a lot of time and $$$.

Good Luck HAL and India.


----------



## Justin Joseph

faithfulguy said:


> I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH





Why are you posting intentional troll????

When you know that these two are of different categories.

Don't u know the difference between Heavy and Light combat helicopter??

I have noticed in every positive Indian thread you post such rants.

Soon, we will be purchasing some dozen of Apache.

But, its LCH, our own development for different requirements.


----------



## shag

faithfulguy said:


> I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH



Longbow (or for that matter most current attack helos) don't have the performance to operate at heights required in the indian scenario. Efficient operation at heights was the reason for development of dhruv and now LCH


----------



## prototype

faithfulguy said:


> I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH



yes we will not break ur heart ,americans have offered as apache and we will purchase it definitly but not at the cost of lch...is that clear


----------



## ashisbutt

alex mercer said:


> yes we will not break ur heart ,americans have offered as apache and we will purchase it definitly but not at the cost of lch...is that clear


I kindly request our people not to take faithfulguy's comment seriously. We all know what is trying to do here and why are you encouraging him? Please ignore rather than trying to explain him.

Explain to people who don't know stuffs. Not to someone who wants to break the party!!


----------



## RPK

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: LCH's Hover-Cyclic Flight At 20-metres Successful

*LCH's Hover-Cyclic Flight At 20-metres Successful*

The first Technology Demonstrator (TD-1) of India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) conducted an extended hover and slow-speed cyclic manoeuver routine yesterday at a height of a little over 20 metres. Everything went beautifully. TD-1 is not weaponised, and will be put through its full flight routines without a single weapon on board. Yesterday's flight was a confidence-building one in the run up to a formal first flight. Sources say there will be several such "confidence building" flights in the run up to the inaugural first flight in April. Wing Commander Unni Pillai piloted the LCH flight yesterday.

Sources confirmed to LiveFist, "Everything went beautifully. It was not a rigorous test, just to get the platform airborne and see how she held up in the air. Everything went fine. A degree of weight issues have been sorted out, but there is still some work to be done. That will be sorted out with TD-2 and TD-3. Now the focus is to validate the design and ensure it is a perfectly capable flying machine, which we of course know it is."

HAL has decided not to put out photos of videos of the flight, though it was , of course, photographed and videographed. Let's see what can be done!

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## 1nd1a

s6demon said:


> where is the flight video or account? all i see is a painted bathtub.



It really makes no sense. It just creates more differences between two of us. I am not sure if your comments were based on your knowledge or based on anti India thoughts. I would totally respect you and your comments however, you should also think the same way. 

This kind of remarks are going to increase the difference among our selfs. 

Request you to take care in future. Hopefully you understand my friend!!!

From my side.....I was waiting for this beast to fly from last 3 months...finally the day has arrived...


----------



## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1334 Test Flights successfully. (26-Mar-10).

* LCA has completed 1334 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-132,PV3-210,LSP1-58,LSP2-146,PV5-8).


----------



## lhuang

faithfulguy said:


> I think Indian arm forces should go for apache longbow instead of LCH



Well I THINK that the US armed forces should go for the LCH instead of the Apache Longbow.

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## Choppers

Lch-first-flight-what-it-must-have-been








While HAL clamps down on publicising the Light Combat Helicopter's first flight, I think we'll have to be satisfied with this for a while, until we get some real photos! Stay tuned.

*Artist's Impression by Shiv Aroor*


----------



## Join

Choppers said:


> Lch-first-flight-what-it-must-have-been
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While HAL clamps down on publicising the Light Combat Helicopter's first flight, I think we'll have to be satisfied with this for a while, until we get some real photos! Stay tuned.
> 
> *Artist's Impression by Shiv Aroor*



haha yes, it should look exactly like this, but more lively....


----------



## RPK

India test flies light combat chopper successfully-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


BANGALORE: India has successfully flight tested a prototype of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a top official said Tuesday.

"The maiden test flight of the LCH Monday evening was successfully. Though it was a short haul lasting about 20 minutes, the performance was good," HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak told IANS.

The 5.5-tonne attack copter is a derivative version of HAL's flagship product Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), christened Dhruv.

"We will be conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters at different altitudes and conditions. We are looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability," Nayak said.

*Made of lightweight composites, the LCH can operate at high altitudes up to 6,000 metres or 18,000 feet.*

The prototype was flown with Shakti engine, developed by HAL in partnership with Turbomeca, the French manufacturer of aero engines for global aerospace majors.

"Plans to launch the flight trials of LCH have been going on over the last couple of months but got delayed due to reassessment of its various functions and flight control systems," a official of the company's copter division said.

HAL plans to hard-sell about 150-175 units of the LCH to the Indian defence services, mainly Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army, which already operates the military version of Dhruv for various functions.

Senior officials of the company's helicopter division and IAF were present at the HAL airport to witness the test fight.

*The LCH will be equipped with a helmet-mounted targeting system, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems.*

The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. It will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations.


----------



## King Ashoka the Great

BANGALORE: India has successfully flight tested a prototype of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a top official said Tuesday. 

"The maiden test flight of the LCH Monday evening was successfully. Though it was a short haul lasting about 20 minutes, the performance was good," HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak told IANS. 

The 5.5-tonne attack copter is a derivative version of HAL's flagship product Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), christened Dhruv. 

"We will be conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters at different altitudes and conditions. We are looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability," Nayak said. 

Made of lightweight composites, the LCH can operate at high altitudes up to 6,000 metres or 18,000 feet. 

The prototype was flown with Shakti engine, developed by HAL in partnership with Turbomeca, the French manufacturer of aero engines for global aerospace majors. 

"Plans to launch the flight trials of LCH have been going on over the last couple of months but got delayed due to reassessment of its various functions and flight control systems," a official of the company's copter division said. 

HAL plans to hard-sell about 150-175 units of the LCH to the Indian defence services, mainly Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army, which already operates the military version of Dhruv for various functions. 

Senior officials of the company's helicopter division and IAF were present at the HAL airport to witness the test fight. 

The LCH will be equipped with a helmet-mounted targeting system, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems. 

The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. It will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations.

India test flies light combat chopper successfully-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


----------



## King Ashoka the Great

what the hell man just a second late...


----------



## Prometheus

great news, well done HAL


----------



## Raje amar

good man i wish we could export similar numbers which will bring some money to the DRDO as well.


----------



## AVADI

guys new photo of lch







courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Join

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



Thanks a lot for this LCH pic buddy, now this is what i call a beast.....


----------



## jagjitnatt

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



Now that is one killer Helicopter.

Looks awesome. Even better than international helis.


----------



## ashisbutt

Is this the one? Is this for real?

Look at the beast mates. Look at him. Hoorayyyyy!!!!!!


----------



## Join

jagjitnatt said:


> Now that is one killer Helicopter.
> 
> Looks awesome. Even better than international helis.



Yes I agree with you, this is a monster... Congrats HAL and DRDO and everyone behind this project.


----------



## Join

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



Hurray, at last the real picture is out...... this is a beast....


----------



## ashisbutt

BANGALORE: Almost two decades after India&#8217;s first indigenously developed chopper the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv took to the skies, its sleeker and lighter cousin, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) successfully completed its maiden flight in Bangalore on Monday.
Defence Ministry sources told Express that the prototype of the LCH, which is being developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian armed forces, took to the Bangalore skies on Monday afternoon.
&#8220;The prototype of the LCH took off from the HAL&#8217;s helicopter division at 3 pm. The first sortie lasted for about 15 to 20 minutes,&#8221; said sources.
While Dhruv is a multi-purpose helicopter with both civilian and military versions, the lighter LCH has been specifically designed for the combat specifications of the Indian Air force.
&#8220;The first flight was perfect and we achieved all the intended objectives,&#8221; said an HAL official who witnessed the flight.
The maiden LCH flight was a closely guarded affair and follows successful ground and functional trials which were conducted in the first week of February.
The maiden flight of the LCH was supposed to take place last year. However, the planned flight was delayed as the armed forces were reportedly unhappy that the helicopter&#8217;s weight slightly exceeded the proposed figure of 2.5 tonnes.
Together, the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army have placed orders for more than 175 of these birds from HAL.

LCH


----------



## Join

ashisbutt said:


> Is this the one? Is this for real?
> 
> Look at the beast mates. Look at him. Hoorayyyyy!!!!!!



Yes yes, this is the real one..... this is our LCH


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## AVADI

Paint scheme is very nice and a deadly looking.Congrats every one.


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## ashisbutt

AVADI said:


> Paint scheme is very nice and a deadly looking.Congrats every one.


Above everything, people, this is just a prototype (If I'm not wrong)... haha.. I can't control my self now...


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## Join

AVADI said:


> Paint scheme is very nice and a deadly looking.Congrats every one.



 ... really proud


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## AVADI

ashisbutt said:


> Above everything, people, this is just a prototype (If I'm not wrong)... haha.. I can't control my self now...



Come on man not *Just* a prototype it is *THE* prototype.

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## dekho

Guess what my new wallpaper is!!!!....



...


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## ashisbutt

AVADI said:


> Come on man not *Just* a prototype it is *THE* prototype.


Buddy, I meant say, its just the prototype.. How will the actual beast look like... Won't the enemy pi$$ if she had to see our beast


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## ashisbutt

dekho said:


> Guess what my new wallpaper is!!!!....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I have already changed mine


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## AVADI

ashisbutt said:


> Buddy, I meant say, its just the prototype.. How will the actual beast look like... Won't the enemy pi$$ if she had to see our beast



Just having fun man.We don't have to bring enemy here lets just enjoy the moment.

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## King Ashoka the Great

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



THIS IS MADE IN INDIA. .....mannnnnnnnn.....

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## Join

King Ashoka the Great said:


> THIS IS MADE IN INDIA.............FOR OUR ENEMY GO TO HELL  .....mannnnnnnnn.....



No need to bring enemy in here, lets just enjoy the moment....

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## dekho

Never seen any HAL prototype in black paint scheme with a yellow tiger vinyl before huh??
Usually they are in white paint with blue stripes.
Anyways I love this one....


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## AVADI

King Ashoka the Great said:


> THIS IS MADE IN INDIA............. EDITED  .....mannnnnnnnn.....



I know buddy you are really happy and so am i but Pls edit your post buddy because this will derail the thread so please lets keep this one a clean thread.

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## Join

s6demon said:


> where is the flight video or account? all i see is a painted bathtub.



Here you go.... Hope this makes u happy..

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## gowthamraj

damn hot it is. , . all countries love this

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## brahmastra

accha he KALA rang he varna kisiki 'NAZAR' lag jati.

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## Novice09

dekho said:


> Guess what my new wallpaper is!!!!....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And I'm forwarding this image to my friends as crazy.

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## Join

gowthamraj said:


> damn hot it is. , . all countries love this



HAL has already bagged a firm order to deliver 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army

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## King Ashoka the Great

Its just a prototype, its going to test is different altitude and condition.....

"We will be conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters at different altitudes and conditions. We are looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability," Nayak said.

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## manish123

AAJ PHIR JEENA KI TAMMANA....


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## EyelessInGaza

Wait and see guys, wait and see.

It looks promising but that whole thing about "*conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters.............looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability*" in the post above makes me wary.

Oh we'll get there in the end with a decent LCH, likely, but in Indian _ishtyle _probably - lot's of discussions, 'news' and controversy. Right now, it's just a glimmer in some general's eye.


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## gowthamraj

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



i have one doubt . . . front pilot have no direct view outside


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## Currywurst

Another view of the India's LCH Test Flight... Photos Courtesy Anantha Krishnan.

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## EyelessInGaza

^^ I can see the top of a car (ambi?) on the bottom right of the pix. 

Without knowing anything about copters, I'd like to know more about the test flight. Right now it seems to be in hover mode.


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## jagjitnatt

gowthamraj said:


> i have one doubt . . . front pilot have no direct view outside



don't worry. its completely normal. As the heli would start moving forward, it would tilt around 15-25 degree towards front and it is then the pilot would get a clear view. All helis work that way.

Also the pilot gets all round view of heli on LCD displays.

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## aimarraul

any videos? guys


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## Mahakaya

*DAMN THIS BABY IS SWEEEEEEET!!!!!*

*WATCH OUT LET* -


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## Justin Joseph

"Suno gaur se duniya walon,
Buri nazar na hum pe daalo,
Chahe kitna zor laga lo,
Sabse aage honge Hindustani..."






After Arjun, LCA and now LCH  our indigenously developed beast and more to come.

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## Justin Joseph

*India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight
*






NDTV Correspondent, Tuesday March 30, 2010, New Delhi

India's indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has flown for the first time. The helicopter, which was test-flown on Monday, successfully hovered for 15 minutes. 

The LCH is based on technologies developed for India's Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter. 

*The LCH will be equipped with missiles in addition to its nose-mounted cannon. It will be able to take out tanks and other armoured vehicles in addition to giving battlefield support to Indian military formations. *

India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight

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## Justin Joseph

*India test flies light combat chopper successfully*

BANGALORE: India has successfully flight tested a prototype of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a top official said Tuesday.

"The maiden test flight of the LCH Monday evening was successfully. Though it was a short haul lasting about 20 minutes, the performance was good," HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak told IANS.

The 5.5-tonne attack copter is a derivative version of HAL's flagship product Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), christened Dhruv.

"We will be conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters at different altitudes and conditions. We are looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability," Nayak said.

*Made of lightweight composites, the LCH can operate at high altitudes up to 6,000 metres or 18,000 feet.

The prototype was flown with Shakti engine, developed by HAL in partnership with Turbomeca, the French manufacturer of aero engines for global aerospace majors.*

"Plans to launch the flight trials of LCH have been going on over the last couple of months but got delayed due to reassessment of its various functions and flight control systems," a official of the company's copter division said.

HAL plans to hard-sell about 150-175 units of the LCH to the Indian defence services, mainly Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army, which already operates the military version of Dhruv for various functions.

Senior officials of the company's helicopter division and IAF were present at the HAL airport to witness the test fight.

*The LCH will be equipped with a helmet-mounted targeting system, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems.

The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. It will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations. *

India test flies light combat chopper successfully-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


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## desiman

Justin Joseph said:


> *India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NDTV Correspondent, Tuesday March 30, 2010, New Delhi
> 
> India's indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has flown for the first time. The helicopter, which was test-flown on Monday, successfully hovered for 15 minutes.
> 
> The LCH is based on technologies developed for India's Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter.
> 
> *The LCH will be equipped with missiles in addition to its nose-mounted cannon. It will be able to take out tanks and other armoured vehicles in addition to giving battlefield support to Indian military formations. *
> 
> India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight



Just beautiful, this baby is sure to become one of India's best defense export products in the coming years. Jai Hind

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## Choppers

i THINK they need to re-do the TIGER eye, add a little red may be. right now it looks a gandhian tiger

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## booo

I didnt like the landing gear.


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## blueoval79

A good begining...a lot of efforts to be made in right direction to make it a commendable war machine.....congrats to HAL


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## illuminatidinesh

sare jahan se acha hindusitan hamara..............
Hindi hi hai ham hindi hi hai ham, vatan hai.

Bit of touch in the landing gear,this goes long way..........


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## Arik

guys just calm down a bit.It is only the first test flight.A lot of systems have to be tested before the bird can be inducted into the armed forces.

Nevertheless congratulations to all scientists ,engineers and also the test pilots .
With this India has now entered a select group of nations who manufacture their own attack copter.


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## RadyLeo

My oh My... She is a Beauty 
Worth every second of the wait. 

Stop nit picking guys.. the landing gear is just fine. 

I wonder whether HAL was able to over come the overweight issues that they were facing, late as last october? Any news about it gurus?

Anyway.. lets party people.. elceeeh is up flying


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## ashisbutt

RadyLeo said:


> My oh My... She is a Beauty
> Worth every second of the wait.
> 
> Stop nit picking guys.. the landing gear is just fine.
> 
> I wonder whether HAL was able to over come the overweight issues that they were facing, late as last october? Any news about it gurus?
> 
> Anyway.. lets party people.. elceeeh is up flying


Regarding the overweight issue, it seems they are still working on it.. The News says that way.

BTW, I'm no Guru, so Gurus please provide us more infos if you have..

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## In God We Trust

God Bless my Country. 
Congratulations to the engineers for putting up so much of hardwork.
You surely make INDIA proud.

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## desiman

ashisbutt said:


> Regarding the overweight issue, it seems they are still working on it.. The News says that way.
> 
> BTW, I'm no Guru, so Gurus please provide us more infos if you have..



The weight issues still exist and are being worked on. If you notice none of the armaments are mounded onto the sides of the LCH mainly due to weight issues. From what I have heard HAL is trying to find a nice balance between firepower and weight. They want the LCH to be very maneuverable as well as deadly. There are currently some flight control specs to be worked on also. We will have to wait and see how the beast looks after final testing. Im sure HAL will be able to handle this very well.

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## IBRIS

gowthamraj said:


> i have one doubt . . . front pilot have no direct view outside



Front pilot operates TV Missiles and TV gun. Attack helicopter flown and it's rockets are fired by rear pilot.

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## gowthamraj

is it have par with t-129 which Pakistan is going to by from American firm (specially made for turkey)


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## manojb

Not bad at all for first TD !! . Regarding Landing gear, HAL/IAF/IA might had pretty good reason to use traildragger configuration for LCH. One reason being the more front clearance for goodies. If they had to use nosewheel then they have to increase the height of the landing gear to accomodate goodies at front hence adding more metal and weight. Note that HAL Dhruv has nosewheel type configuration. And more over for helos the landing gear is less significant than that of fixed winger..


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## desiman

gowthamraj said:


> is it have par with t-129 which Pakistan is going to by from American firm (specially made for turkey)



SHHHHHHHHHHHHH WE DONT SAY THINGS LIKE THAT HERE  I hope you get my hint


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## sancho

Arik said:


> guys just calm down a bit.It is only the first test flight.A lot of systems have to be tested before the bird can be inducted into the armed forces.
> 
> Nevertheless congratulations to all scientists ,engineers and also the test pilots .
> With this India has now entered a select group of nations who manufacture their own attack copter.


Not necessarily, because it's highly based on the Dhruv and those systems are proven.


gowthamraj said:


> is it have par with t-129 which Pakistan is going to by from American firm (specially made for turkey)


T-129 is form Agosta Westland an mixed company from Italy and UK, besides that we should wait for the first official specs before we can compare it, but what we can say is, that the LCH is in the same class and can carry the same number of anti-tank missiles.


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## manish123

alh ,lca lch.next stop ahh,mca,hch,


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## Chanakyaa

The Advanced LCH Cockpit :







A Closeup :



Specs ::

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## BJlaowai

Justin Joseph said:


> *India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NDTV Correspondent, Tuesday March 30, 2010, New Delhi
> 
> India's indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has flown for the first time. The helicopter, which was test-flown on Monday, successfully hovered for 15 minutes.
> 
> The LCH is based on technologies developed for India's Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter.
> 
> *The LCH will be equipped with missiles in addition to its nose-mounted cannon. It will be able to take out tanks and other armoured vehicles in addition to giving battlefield support to Indian military formations. *
> 
> India's Indigenous Light Combat Helicopter takes 1st flight



Usually HAL prototypes dont have the IAF logo. But this LCH prototype has both HAL and IAF logos. Also the paint scheme is deviation from the earlier prototype paint schemes, and is more closer to IAF paint scheme. Does this signify something??


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## Ingis

Great going India! An indigenously designed stealth attack helicopter. Nice work DRDO and HAL... many congratulations!


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## Hulk

Brick by brick step by step DRDO will attain glory in this decade.

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## Join

BJlaowai said:


> Usually HAL prototypes dont have the IAF logo. But this LCH prototype has both HAL and IAF logos. Also the paint scheme is deviation from the earlier prototype paint schemes, and is more closer to IAF paint scheme. Does this signify something??



No buddy, this does not signify anything... Even LCA tejas prototype has IAF logo..... And This Paint scheme looks cool, usually we have White with Blue stripes, but this has to be a beast and thus the color scheme


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## Join

booo said:


> I didnt like the landing gear.



Its fixed with crash-worthy wheel landing gear for better survivability... So this is the best one can do... And this looks like a beast.... I love its landing gear aswell...

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## brahmastra

Excess weight has been the main reason for the delay in the LCH programme. The heavy armour needed for protection against enemy fire conflicts with the need for a light, highly mobile helicopter that can twist and dodge and hover stationary to allow pilots to aim and fire their missiles. *The LCH was supposed to weight just 2.5 tonnes when empty; but the design team found that it actually weighed 580 kg more than that.*

At lower altitudes, this would not be a significant drawback. But, at the LCH&#8217;s flight ceiling of 6,000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), this would significantly reduce the LCH&#8217;s payload of weapons and ammunition.

Last September, the chief of HAL&#8217;s Helicopter Complex, R Srinivasan, told Business Standard that the LCH&#8217;s weight would be progressively reduced over the first three Technology Demonstrators (TDs) of the LCH. &#8220;*We will find ways of cutting down TD-1 by 180-200 kg; TD-2, will be another 100 kg lighter; and TD-3 will shave off another 65-75 kg. That would leave the LCH about 200 kg heavier than originally planned, but the IAF has accepted that.*&#8221;

HAL chief Ashok Nayak today confirmed to Business Standard that this schedule was on track. &#8220;*The weight reduction that we had targeted for TD-1, which flew on Monday, has been met. The second prototype, TD-1, which will make its first flight by September, will be lighter still.*&#8221;

*The Indian Air Force (IAF) has said that it needs 65 LCHs; the army wants another 114.* If the development programme is not delayed further, the LCH will enter service by 2015-2016. To meet its needs till then, the Ministry of Defence floated a global tender for 22 attack helicopters. With only three companies responding, that tender was cancelled last year.

But HAL remains confident since most of the key technologies in the LCH &#8212; e.g., the Shakti engine, the rotors and the main gearbox &#8212; have already been proven in the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter, 159 of which are being built for the army and the air force.

Simultaneously, the LCH&#8217;s weapons and sensors are being tested on a weaponised version of the Dhruv. *These include a Nexter 20 mm turret-mounted cannon, an MBDA air-to-air missile, and an EW suite from SAAB, South Africa*. India&#8217;s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is developing an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for the LCH. Based on the already developed Nag ATGM, the HELINA (or HELIicopter-mounted NAg) missile can destroy tanks from a distance of seven kilometres.

credit:Ajai Shukla

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## chachachoudhary

AVADI said:


> guys new photo of lch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy:ndtv.com/vishnu



Dhan ta nan!!!!!! Tat ta tatar, tatar, tatar!!!!!



Party time

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## chachachoudhary

Arik said:


> guys just calm down a bit.It is only the first test flight.A lot of systems have to be tested before the bird can be inducted into the armed forces.
> 
> Nevertheless congratulations to all scientists ,engineers and also the test pilots .
> With this India has now entered a select group of nations who manufacture their own attack copter.



You are right. I am also very excited and I can understand the joy of others also. Please excuse each others silly comments and savour the moment.

In case of LCH, they have adapted a good approach as far as testing other instruments and weapons are concerned. They are doing the weapons test using Dhruv. So, it will be less time consuming and simpler to integrate them with LCH as a lot of data would be available from dhruv mounted systems. So, actually both tests, basic platform and airframe as well as weapons and instruments are proceeding simultaneously.

Remember developing an attack heli is hell of an achievement. Even big names such as sikorsky had a bad experience with projects such as comanche. (Project cost running in many billions of dollars)

In the light of these facts, I think HAL and DRDO are doing really fantastic job and that too at a fraction of cost.

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## Kinetic

Beauty and the beast! WOW! The best attack coper I have ever seen! Congrats to every Indian and HAL. God bless INDIA!  



desiman said:


> The weight issues still exist and are being worked on. If you notice none of the armaments are mounded onto the sides of the LCH mainly due to weight issues. From what I have heard HAL is trying to find a nice balance between firepower and weight. They want the LCH to be very maneuverable as well as deadly. There are currently some flight control specs to be worked on also. We will have to wait and see how the beast looks after final testing. Im sure HAL will be able to handle this very well.



NO! Empty pylons have nothing to do with weight issue. No aircraft fly with weapons at its first flight. HAL will steadily reduce the weight of the chopper. First 200 kg with this TD-1, 100kg TD-2 and 75 kg with TD-3. When inducted into the Indian armed forces it will be one of the best in terms of capabilities and the best in terms of performances.

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## Kinetic

indianrabbit said:


> Brick by brick step by step DRDO will attain glory in this decade.



DRDO is the only organization in the world that develops rifles to thermo-nuclear bombs, MBT to nuclear submarines, anti-tank missile to ICBM, grenade to ballistic missile defence.

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## Join

Kinetic said:


> DRDO is the only organization in the world that develops rifles to thermo-nuclear bombs, MBT to nuclear submarines, anti-tank missile to ICBM, grenade to ballistic missile defence.



Thats because we do not have any other organization to make...... Slowly TATA,Mahindra and L&T and coming into this field.... So DRDO will have tough competition, but still there products will be limited to aircrafts,MBT or Submarines, no bombs, as it comes under MOD


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## Join

Kinetic said:


> DRDO is the only organization in the world that develops rifles to thermo-nuclear bombs, MBT to nuclear submarines, anti-tank missile to ICBM, grenade to ballistic missile defence.



And DRDO is not one organization, its a collective name given to 44 establishments , so everyone is assigned different work


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## Novice09

indianrabbit said:


> Brick by brick step by step DRDO will attain glory in this decade.



Yes they will... This was due to them... Indian babus, always changing requirements of Army and Air force were some of the reasons for their delayed projects.

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## BJlaowai

I have a few questions. 
What is the status of Light Attack Helicopter (LAH). Is LCH and LAH the same? 
I had read somewhere that LAH will be based on Cheetah helicopter platform. Is LAH just a weaponised version of Cheetah?
What will be the roles for weaponised ALH-Dhruv, LCH and LAH?
Is India planning to develop any Heavy Combat/attack Helicopters, in Mi-17-Hind or Cobra helicopters range?


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## blueoval79

*India's Light Combat copter makes first flight*

As the helicopter taxied slowly along the airstrip, a little knot of designers and executives from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) watched silently, the sweat beads on their foreheads from more than just the Bangalore heat. The 29th of March, had been selected for a landmark attempt: the first flight of the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Already a year late, and facing criticism for having gone several hundred kilograms overweight, the LCH had much to prove.

Attack helicopters involve the most complex aeronautical, stealth, sensor and weapons technologies. HALs state-of-the-art LCH aims to gatecrash an exclusive club of light attack helicopters that includes Eurocopters Tiger and Chinas ultra-secret Zhisheng-10 (Z-10). In high-altitude performance, the LCH will be in a class by itself: taking off from Himalayan altitudes of 10,000 feet, operating rockets and guns up to 16,300 feet, and launching missiles at UAVs flying at over 21,000 feet.

At 3.30 p.m. the twin Shakti engines roared to a crescendo and the LCH pilots, Group Captains Unni Pillai and Hari Nair, lifted off the ground. The futuristic helicopter, all angles and armoured sheets, flew for a distance just a few feet above the runway; then cheering and clapping broke out as it climbed to 50 feet. Over the next 15 minutes, Pillai and Nair put the LCH through its first flight test, doing a clockwise and then an anti-clockwise turn, hovering motionless and circling the airport four times.

It is a big day for all of us, especially those involved in the LCHs design and fabrication, Ashok Nayak, Chairman and Managing Director of HAL told Business Standard. We were going to have the first LCH flight in December but, for one reason or another, it kept getting delayed.

A feared predator in the modern battlefield, the attack helicopter is a key weapon system against enemy tanks. Once an enemy tank column is detected, attack helicopters speed to confront them, flying just 20-30 feet high to avoid radar detection with enemy rifle and machine-gun bullets ricocheting off their armoured sides. Hiding behind trees or a ridgeline, they pop up when the tanks are about 4 kilometers away to fire missiles that smash through a tanks armour.

Excess weight has been the main reason for the delay in the LCH programme. The heavy armour needed for protection against enemy fire conflicts with the need for a light, highly mobile helicopter that can twist and dodge and hover stationary to allow pilots to aim and fire their missiles. The LCH was supposed to weight just 2.5 tonnes when empty; but the design team found that it actually weighed 580 kg more than that.

At lower altitudes, this would not be a significant drawback. But, at the LCHs flight ceiling of 6000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), this would significantly reduce the LCHs payload of weapons and ammunition.

Last September, the chief of HALs Helicopter Complex, R Srinivasan, told Business Standard that the LCHs weight would be progressively reduced over the first three Technology Demonstrators (TDs) of the LCH. We will find ways of cutting down TD-1 by 180-200 kg; TD-2, will be another 100 kg lighter; and TD-3 will shave off another 65-75 kg. That would leave the LCH about 200 kg heavier than originally planned, but the IAF has accepted that.

HAL chief, Ashok Nayak, today confirmed to Business Standard that this schedule was on track. The weight reduction that we had targeted for TD-1, which flew on Monday, has been met. The second prototype, TD-1, which will make its first flight by September, will be lighter still.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has said that it needs 65 LCHs; the army wants another 114. If the development programme is not delayed further the LCH will enter service by 2015-2016. To meet its needs till then, the MoD floated a global tender for 22 attack helicopters. With only three companies responding, that tender was cancelled last year.

But HAL remains confident since most of the key technologies in the LCH --- e.g. the Shakti engine, the rotors and the main gearbox --- have already been proven in the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), 159 of which are being built for the army and the air force.

Simultaneously, the LCHs weapons and sensors are being tested on a weaponised version of the Dhruv. These include a Nexter 20 mm turret-mounted cannon, an MBDA air-to-air missile, and an EW suite from SAAB, South Africa. Indias Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is developing an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for the LCH. Based on the already developed Nag ATGM, the HELINA (or HELIicopter-mounted NAg) missile can destroy tanks from a distance of seven kilometres. 

India's Light Combat copter makes first flight

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## PLAextream

dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.


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## PLAextream

even your hind will be more capable than that .may be youe force looking for a lighter version similsr to cobra attack copter


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## Tejas-MkII

A sheet of comparison between LCH and other Heli.

Google Squared

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## Novice09

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.



Why should we compare our LCH with China's WZ-10? It is just a start, we have a long way to go. DRDO will take care of the major hurdles...  

And yes, it would be worst than basic version of cobra... HAPPY, EGO SATISFIED?


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## Join

BJlaowai said:


> I have a few questions.
> What is the status of Light Attack Helicopter (LAH). Is LCH and LAH the same?




LCH and LAH are the same..... Light combat or attack, its not named yet. Like LCA which is called tejas, this is yet to be named.




BJlaowai said:


> I had read somewhere that LAH will be based on Cheetah helicopter platform. Is LAH just a weaponised version of Cheetah?




No thats Lancer helicopter which is a light atack helicopter, we already have it, that was the first attack heli to be made in India, But thats really Light.
*this is HAL LANCER which was introduced in mid 80's
*





BJlaowai said:


> What will be the roles for weaponised ALH-Dhruv, LCH and LAH?




Weaponised ALH dhruv is inducted into the army, its In the second line Insurgency missions, not for front line war, as far as LCH is concerned its yet to be decided.




BJlaowai said:


> Is India planning to develop any Heavy Combat/attack Helicopters, in Mi-17-Hind or Cobra helicopters range?



No, Never heard of anything like that, but HAL is developing an LOH(Light observation Helicopter)

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## In God We Trust

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.



Why you have to troll all the time. So what if you got quantity. Ever seen the quality of your products? Studying, researching takes hell of a time and at the end we have pulled a great heli sure not the best around. As we start gaining more and more experience in this field better products and better usage of time will automatically fall in hands. And why bring pakistan into this? Compare it with HIND you will get your answer.


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## Join

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.



And No one here is making comparison to chinese products, LCH will pave our way forward, and yes, this is not as bad as you think, this can still be more deadly when its made lighter, its rate of climb and manuverability will be increased considerably.... 

And For your kind information it took HAL only 4 years to develop it, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited announced its plans to build a Light Combat Helicopter in 2006. Funds for the design and development of the Light Combat Helicopter to meet the requirements of the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force were sanctioned in October, 2006.

So We are well on track buddy

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## KEETARP

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.



What a contradictory post 
Firstly You say its a prototype , so no conclusion should be drawn 
And in Next line you - yourself conclude that it will be inferior to basic COBRA design which Pakistan air-force is retiring.

If you want comparison - Plz post these details and we can discuss in detail

What is Hpower of Engine on Cobra?
What the operational range , rate of climb , operational altitude
What fuselage design Cobra has ?
What IR and signature reduction measure are in place in Cobra?
Whats the A2A missile used by Cobra?
Which anti-tank missile is used by Cobra?
What is caliber of Gun mounted on Cobra?
Finally the unit price of each Cobra sold to pakistan

Let me put my perspective ,
*Here is link comparing all specs of LCH wrt to other class apart Helis, so if you want to compare LCH plz provide above enlisted details*

Google Squared

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## Chanakyaa

Guys dont feed the troll. Enjoy the party.

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## RadyLeo

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.



China can have all it wants in its kitty.. See if we care. It surely will be a rip off from some existing designs obtained through espionage or blatant copyright violations... so stop gloating about your Chinese superior military might.. too hoots for that.

Just for your information since you seem to be totally out of the loop with regard to HAL heli divisions capabilities, the Weapons and Sensors are already being tested on a "weponised" version of Dhruv. 

Please take your rant elsewhere Thank you very much.


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## KEETARP

Comparison of LCH with other combat machines
Google Squared

Enjoy a try on MS-PAINT by me uploaded on Flickr (courtesy- Livefist for LCH + Bharat rakshak for ALH )

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## Justin Joseph

PLAextream said:


> dont start making conclusion from looking at a proto type ,it just took HAL so many years even it is based on there AHl still the major hurdle would be to integrate weapon system & optrics ,ECW etc . this copter will still be a basic version of cobra which pak is going to replace soon.
> just google what CHINA has in its kitty. no offence simple comparison.




Why are you feeling hot coals???

From where china comes into this thread???????

Go and troll somewhere else.

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## tidu

it looks great ,but i hv few doubts ,to make it stealthier many things in its prototype has to be changed eg. the landing gears ,the heat exhaust,the weaopns on its wings etc,i hd seen a episode on comanche ,indian lch looks like the comanche


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## Justin Joseph

*Comparison between Indian LCH and Pakistani AH-1F "Modernized" Cobra*

*LCH | Cobra*

Crew: 2 *|* Crew: 2

Empty weight: 2550 kg *|* Empty weight: 2,993 kg

Max takeoff weight: 5,500 kg *|* Max takeoff weight: 4,500 kg

Powerplant: 2&#215; 900 kW (1200 hp) each, *|* Powerplant: 1X1,800 shp (1,300 kW)

Maximum speed: 275 km/h *|* Maximum speed: 277 km/h

Range: 700km (297 nm, 342 mi) *|* Range: 274 nmi (315 mi, 510 km)

Rate of climb: 12 m/s *|* Rate of climb: 8.2 m/s

*Armament
*
Guns: M621 20 mm cannon *|* 20 mm Gatling type cannon
Rockets: Unguided rockets *|* Hydra 70, 70 mm rockets

*Missiles:*
MBDA air-to-air missiles *|* TOW Missiles - 4 or 8 missiles 
Air-to-surface missiles
Anti-radiation missiles
Helina ATGM(8)

*Bombs:* 
Iron bombs
cluster bomb units
grenade launcher

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## Justin Joseph

self delete


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## Join

Justin Joseph said:


> LCH



its photoshopped buddy


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## sancho

brahmastra said:


> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has said that it needs 65 LCHs; the army wants another 114. If the development programme is not delayed further, *the LCH will enter service by 2015-2016*.
> 
> But HAL remains confident since most of the key technologies in the LCH  e.g., *the Shakti engine, the rotors and the main gearbox  have already been proven in the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter*



Don't know but his reports aren't really realiable these days (combat helicopter competition was reissued!), but if the induction is planed only in 5-6 years it really would surprise me! 
What do they want to test for such a long time, if all important parts are already proven?


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## PLAextream

well as far as comparison or draging pak , these machine will have to face CHINA and PAKISITAN its its destiny which you cant ignore so comparison is for sure help you understand where your machine stand.
as far as manuverability is concerned ,does it help to evade a locked missile.
so going by your comments like" its lighter hence more manuverable" is just a **** when same guys call your su30mki more manuverable even its huge.
dear sir's it stand no chance in front of heavy weight contenders like apachi,hind etc.


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## Mirza Jatt

PLAextream said:


> well as far as comparison or draging pak , these machine will have to face CHINA and PAKISITAN its its destiny which you cant ignore so comparison is for sure help you understand where your machine stand.
> as far as manuverability is concerned ,does it help to evade a locked missile.
> so going by your comments like" its lighter hence more manuverable" is just a **** when same guys call your su30mki more manuverable even its huge.
> dear sir's it stand no chance in front of heavy weight contenders like apachi,hind etc.



Thank you for your information....Now don't spoil the party and enjoy the pictures of LCH....even you are invited  arent they great?? man I love them..

can anyone tell me the exact cost of this beast?


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## Kinetic

Join said:


> Thats because we do not have any other organization to make...... Slowly TATA,Mahindra and L&T and coming into this field.... So DRDO will have tough competition, but still there products will be limited to aircrafts,MBT or Submarines, no bombs, as it comes under MOD



Firstly, DRDO with much less budget comparable to other R&D orgs around the world doing everything needed for keeping the country safe. 

DRDO developing bombs whether it is nukes or conventional! DRDO was part of India's nuke development programme along with DAE. For conventional bomb note new Sudarshan. 



> And DRDO is not one organization, its a collective name given to 44 establishments , so everyone is assigned different work



DRDO is an organization and it has many labs and related establishments.

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## IceCold

What is Indias counterpart to hell fire missile that would be used on LCH? If i am not wrong NAG is your anti tank missile, will NAG equip LCH for anti tank role?


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## Join

IceCold said:


> What is Indias counterpart to hell fire missile that would be used on LCH? If i am not wrong NAG is your anti tank missile, will NAG equip LCH for anti tank role?



Yes, We have the helicopter launch version specially designed for LCH called HELINA (*HELI*COPTER *NA*G)

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## fsoul

Indian Jatt said:


> can anyone tell me the exact cost of this beast?



$10 million a piece.

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## sancho

Join said:


> Yes, We have the helicopter launch version specially designed for LCH called HELINA (*HELI*COPTER *NA*G)


Hellfire is on offer for us too, but I hope we won't go for them, because they don't offer real advantages over HELINA (Hellfires range is 8Km, Helinia 7Km). More interesting as an alternative would be Israels Spike NLOS with a range of *25Km*, but it's heavier, so can be used only in lower numbers.

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## tomluter

Good job, it seems Indian have exceed Chinese in this field.
Though there are some help from the Turbomeca, but it is still a advantage of India in international ralationship.

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## Join

tomluter said:


> ]Good job, it seems Indian have exceed Chinese in this field.[/B]
> Though there are some help from the Turbomeca, but it is still a advantage of India in international ralationship.



well sir, LCH more or less stands shoulder to shoulder to WZ-10

*LCH specifications​*






*Crew: 2
Length: 15.8 m (51ft 8in)
Rotor diameter: 13.3 m (43 ft 6 in)
Height: 4.7 m (15 ft 4 in)
Disc area: 138.9 m&#178; (1472 ft&#178
Empty weight: 2550 kg (5621 lb)
Loaded weight: 4000 kg (8818 lb)
Useful load: 2950 kg (6503 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12125 lb)
Powerplant: 2&#215; HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshafts, 900 kW (1200 hp) each
Never exceed speed: 330 km/h (178 knots, 207 mph)
Maximum speed: 275 km/h (148 knots, 171 mph)
Cruise speed: 260 km/h (140 knots, 161 mph)
Range: 700km (297 nm, 342 mi)
Service ceiling: 6400 m (21,300 ft)
Rate of climb: 12 m/s (2362 ft/min)
Disc loading: kg/m&#178; (lb/ft&#178
Power/mass: W/kg (hp/lb)
Armament
Guns: M621 20 mm cannon on Nexter THL-20 turret
Rockets: Unguided rockets
Missiles: MBDA air-to-air missiles
Air-to-surface missiles
Anti-radiation missiles
Helina ATGM(8)
Bombs: Iron bombs
cluster bomb units
grenade launcher*

*CAIC WZ-10 specifications​*


*Crew: 2
Length: 14.15 m (ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.0 m [4] (ft)
Height: 3.85 m (ft)
Disc area: m&#178; (ft&#178
Empty weight: 5540 kg [4] (lb)
Loaded weight: kg (lb)
Useful load: 1500 kg [4] (lb)
Max takeoff weight: 7000 kg (lb)
Powerplant: 2&#215; WZ-9 turboshafts [4], 957 kw (1285 hp) each
Maximum speed: 300+ km/h [4]
Cruise speed: 270+ km/h [4]
Ferry range: 800+ km [4] ()
Service ceiling: 6400 m (ft)
Rate of climb: over 12+ m/s [4] (ft/min)
Disc loading: kg/m&#178; (lb/ft&#178
Maximum acceleration: +3 g (29 m/s&#178
Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret with grenade launchers, or 14.5 mm Gatling gun
Hardpoints: 4
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
Air-to-surface missiles: Up to 8 ATGM
Air-to-air missiles:
Up to 8 TY-90
Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9*


ONCE THE LCH IS READY FULLY, IT SHOULD BE BETTER... WELL GOOD TO KNOW THAT HAL AND DRDO HAVE ACHIEVED IT

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## Kinetic

sancho said:


> Hellfire is on offer for us too, but I hope we won't go for them, because they don't offer real advantages over HELINA (Hellfires range is 8Km, Helinia 7Km). More interesting as an alternative would be Israels Spike NLOS with a range of *25Km*, but it's heavier, so can be used only in lower numbers.



Indian Army already shown interest in Spike NLOS rejecting Javelin. Is there any heli-borne version of Spike NLOS?


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## lhuang

tomluter said:


> Good job, it seems Indian have exceed Chinese in this field.
> Though there are some help from the Turbomeca, but it is still a advantage of India in international ralationship.



Erm, doubt it.


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## marcos98

Broadsword: India&#8217;s Light Combat Helicopter makes first flight

*India&#8217;s Light Combat Helicopter makes first flight *

As the helicopter taxied slowly along the airstrip, a little knot of designers and executives from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) watched silently, the sweat beads on their foreheads from more than just the Bangalore heat. The 29th of March, had been selected for a landmark attempt: the first flight of the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Already a year late, and facing criticism for having gone several hundred kilograms overweight, the LCH had much to prove.

Attack helicopters involve the most complex aeronautical, stealth, sensor and weapons technologies. HAL&#8217;s state-of-the-art LCH aims to gatecrash an exclusive club of light attack helicopters that includes Eurocopter&#8217;s Tiger and China&#8217;s ultra-secret Zhisheng-10 (Z-10). In high-altitude performance, the LCH will be in a class by itself: taking off from Himalayan altitudes of 10,000 feet, operating rockets and guns up to 16,300 feet, and launching missiles at UAVs flying at over 21,000 feet.

At 3.30 p.m. the twin Shakti engines roared to a crescendo and the LCH pilots, Group Captains Unni Pillai and Hari Nair, lifted off the ground. The futuristic helicopter, all angles and armoured sheets, flew for a distance just a few feet above the runway; then cheering and clapping broke out as it climbed to 50 feet. Over the next 15 minutes, Pillai and Nair put the LCH through its first flight test, doing a clockwise and then an anti-clockwise turn, hovering motionless and circling the airport four times.

&#8220;It is a big day for all of us, especially those involved in the LCH&#8217;s design and fabrication&#8221;, Ashok Nayak, Chairman and Managing Director of HAL told Business Standard. &#8220;We were going to have the first LCH flight in December but, for one reason or another, it kept getting delayed.&#8221;

A feared predator in the modern battlefield, the attack helicopter is a key weapon system against enemy tanks. Once an enemy tank column is detected, attack helicopters speed to confront them, flying just 20-30 feet high to avoid radar detection with enemy rifle and machine-gun bullets ricocheting off their armoured sides. Hiding behind trees or a ridgeline, they pop up when the tanks are about 4 kilometers away to fire missiles that smash through a tank&#8217;s armour.

Excess weight has been the main reason for the delay in the LCH programme. The heavy armour needed for protection against enemy fire conflicts with the need for a light, highly mobile helicopter that can twist and dodge and hover stationary to allow pilots to aim and fire their missiles. The LCH was supposed to weight just 2.5 tonnes when empty; but the design team found that it actually weighed 580 kg more than that.

At lower altitudes, this would not be a significant drawback. But, at the LCH&#8217;s flight ceiling of 6000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), this would significantly reduce the LCH&#8217;s payload of weapons and ammunition.

Last September, the chief of HAL&#8217;s Helicopter Complex, R Srinivasan, told Business Standard that the LCH&#8217;s weight would be progressively reduced over the first three Technology Demonstrators (TDs) of the LCH. &#8220;We will find ways of cutting down TD-1 by 180-200 kg; TD-2, will be another 100 kg lighter; and TD-3 will shave off another 65-75 kg. That would leave the LCH about 200 kg heavier than originally planned, but the IAF has accepted that.&#8221;

HAL chief, Ashok Nayak, today confirmed to Business Standard that this schedule was on track. &#8220;The weight reduction that we had targeted for TD-1, which flew on Monday, has been met. The second prototype, TD-2, which will make its first flight by September, will be lighter still.&#8221;

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has said that it needs 65 LCHs; the army wants another 114. If the development programme is not delayed further the LCH will enter service by 2015-2016. To meet its needs till then, the MoD floated a global tender for 22 attack helicopters. With only three companies responding, that tender was cancelled last year.

But HAL remains confident since most of the key technologies in the LCH --- e.g. the Shakti engine, the rotors and the main gearbox --- have already been proven in the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), 159 of which are being built for the army and the air force.

Simultaneously, the LCH&#8217;s weapons and sensors are being tested on a weaponised version of the Dhruv. These include a Nexter 20 mm turret-mounted cannon, an MBDA air-to-air missile, and an EW suite from SAAB, South Africa. India&#8217;s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is developing an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for the LCH. Based on the already developed Nag ATGM, the HELINA (or HELIicopter-mounted NAg) missile can destroy tanks from a distance of seven kilometres.

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## KEETARP

PLAextream said:


> well as far as comparison or draging pak , these machine will have to face CHINA and PAKISITAN its its destiny which you cant ignore so comparison is for sure help you understand where your machine stand.
> as far as manuverability is concerned ,does it help to evade a locked missile.
> so going by your comments like" its lighter hence more manuverable" is just a **** when same guys call your su30mki more manuverable even its huge.
> dear sir's it stand no chance in front of heavy weight contenders like apachi,hind etc.



You are simply not aware of reason behind designing LCH and its maneuverability

First and foremost important thing is - It should operate from LEH airfield which is at height of more than 10000 (highest airfield in world). No other attack chopper is capable of doing it , only light non-combat ALH-DHRUV have done that ,
Bcoz of thin air and lower density of air Fighter jets have problem operating in combat load , this is where a direct takeoff from a chopper comes in handy.
Another issue here is Supersonic jets that india operates are too dangerous to be successful in following Terrain guidance bcoz their speed is too fast.
Thats where a subsonic maneuverable chopper comes in handy.

Whether it will be able to avoid LOCK ON depends on 
ECM given to it ,
Type of A2A missile fired by Enemy and
Added maneuverability is just an advantage.
HAL would give a decent job to it since all EW suite components like RWR , MAWS are being finalized with the help from SWEDEN and FRANCE. No doubt it will be class apart.

*Now you tell me which A2A missile and what generation missile is used by Pakistan + China for its attack helicoptors. 
Whats the missile seeker+Range+added subsystem to jam enemy's EW suite and what abt the maneuverability of missile itself. 

Then we can compare it to MBDA's A2A weapon on LCH.*

good news for INDIA is IA has been given Green signal to go ahead purchasing Heavy combat Helos like APACHE LONGBOW/ KA 52 ALLIGATOR worth 2 SQ and more in future , 
conclusion LCH will complement this Force of unbeatable Choppers.

*And finally unit price is just 10.5 mill, now compare its capabilities to others at this price and what it offers.
Here is the link*

Google Squared

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## pop_alsa

Are you sure unit price is 10$ million?

Above document says, one apache costs $40million+ for one piece and price of one LCH is 1.5$ million?

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## Arik

pop_alsa said:


> Are you sure unit price is 10$ million?
> 
> Above document says, one apache costs $40million+ for one piece and price of one LCH is 1.5$ million?



dhruv costs around $7million.lch is bound to have as higher price.

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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> Indian Army already shown interest in Spike NLOS rejecting Javelin. Is there any heli-borne version of Spike NLOS?





> ...The new weapon can be fired from helicopters. Previous versions of the Spike have been integrated on the Eurocopter Puma and Tiger by Slovenia and Spain respectively. Fixed-wing aircraft are not being considered as firing platforms for any member of the Spike family, Rafael says....



Rafael unveils new long-range Spike missile


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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

What I know from some sources in IAF is that the first squadron of LCA will be inducted this year!!

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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

Congrats India and HAL!! Great Job!!

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## liteon

Join said:


> well sir, LCH more or less stands shoulder to..
> 
> ONCE THE LCH IS READY FULLY, IT SHOULD BE BETTER... WELL GOOD TO KNOW THAT HAL AND DRDO HAVE ACHIEVED IT



doubt it. wz-10 been flying for 10 years with more than 8 prototypes. lch have yet to fly over 50 m and without weapons load. there're still a lot more work to do..


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## KEETARP

liteon said:


> doubt it. wz-10 been flying for 10 years with more than 8 prototypes. lch have yet to fly over 50 m and without weapons load. there're still a lot more work to do..



How are you sure enough to doubt its capabilities?????
I mean any specific reason or just assumption

plz read back posts you will get a better picture

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## Moorkh

i have a small doubt, the landing gear in both the LCH and the WZ-10 is not retractable. this means they will be sticking out the whole time, wont this severely affect its radar cross-section?

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## KEETARP

Moorkh said:


> i have a small doubt, the landing gear in both the LCH and the WZ-10 is not retractable. this means they will be sticking out the whole time, wont this severely affect its radar cross-section?



Bro - you are confusing LO(low observability) with RCS (radar cross section)
landing gear will compromise its LO features not RCS

If you want i can give reason why this type of landing gear is used

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## liteon

"How are you sure enough to doubt its capabilities?????
I mean any specific reason or just assumption

plz read back posts you will get a better picture"

common sense

specs on paper vs. reality


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## Novice09

Moorkh said:


> i have a small doubt, the landing gear in both the LCH and the WZ-10 is not retractable. this means they will be sticking out the whole time, wont this severely affect its radar cross-section?



Buddy, fully loaded LCH is going to have even more *severe radar cross-section*


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## Moorkh

please do. 

as far as i know, RCS will be compromised by the landing gear assembly due to the several corners and surfaces.

the landing gear wont affect the visible observability as they are pretty small compared to the rest of the body. and dont jut out even as much as the stub wings.


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## KEETARP

liteon said:


> common sense
> specs on paper vs. reality



According to your common sense - F35 will always be inferior to F16, just bcoz at this moment F16 is reality.

Dont make your own assumptions, if you have any comparison data or specs or proof to back up then post it.

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## liteon

yes. paper is just paper. many indian weapons does not live up to the specs.


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## KEETARP

liteon said:


> yes. paper is just paper. many indian weapons does not live up to the specs.



See again - Its just your assumption that LCH is inferior. You can't back up or justify your statement by any proof.

Do you believe it has less Hpower??? has less speed,climb rate is less, operational altitude is less
Do you think design is flawed, less maneuverable??
Do you belive its way too costly???
Do you belive it has weight issues???
Do you doubt its weapons?? EW suite ?? Helmet mounted sight
Atleast post part in which you believe it will under perform, so that all people can discuss 

Otherwise Keep dreaming and Good luck with your assumption that it is inferior


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## KEETARP

Moorkh said:


> please do.
> 
> as far as i know, RCS will be compromised by the landing gear assembly due to the several corners and surfaces.
> 
> the landing gear wont affect the visible observability as they are pretty small compared to the rest of the body. and dont jut out even as much as the stub wings.



Firstly plz note prime req of LCH is to operate in high altitude like LEH airfield
The fixed landing gear is towards the requirement of rough landing as the chopper is designed to operate in very high altitude in the Himalayan regions, where it is better to have all the safety gear you can get and which is tried and tested.

It's operating altitude is 6km.

*There is a real chance that you will drop like a stone in the rarefied environment of Himalayas.*

The fixed gear would be simple, rugged and no extra weight of the retractable mechanism.
Its more complicated to have a retraction mechanism with the actuators,and additional added back up system in case it fails to come back out ,and more space is required if its to be pulled into the fuselage, plus you need doors for that which means added hinges and actuators. 
For weight constrained designs, every kg of weight removed is a performance gain, so its not needed.
Do note every Kg less adds to more speed and Maneuvering at high altitude operation.

Finally what i meant with LO is akin to stealth and IR reduction

Read the first line of this link
Stealth technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And u interpreted LO as visibility issue . 
anyways if you need more clarification ask me


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## saurabh

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Bro - you are confusing LO(low observability) with RCS (radar cross section)
> *landing gear will compromise its LO features not RCS*
> 
> If you want i can give reason why this type of landing gear is used



Generally when we talk about low observability of aircraft, we do so in terms of its radar cross section or infrared emission.
Can you elaborate what you mean by compromising LO feature and not RCS?


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## sudhir007

Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora said:


> What I know from some sources in IAF is that the first squadron of LCA will be inducted this year!!


Can share that sources with us


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## MZUBAIR

Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora said:


> What I know from some sources in IAF is that the first squadron of LCA will be inducted this year!!



1) Sources plz?
2) Which engine is finalized for LCA?
3) Which radar is finalized for LCA?
4) Is the production is started?

Please post the references to prove your quotes.

Thank you


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## KS

I think he is speaking ab the Mk 1 version...So

1) engine - GE404
2) radar - Elta 2032 (until the indigenous MMR is ready)
3) production - the assembly lines are in place.Production will commence immediately once the IOC is obtained.

Learned members pls correct if im wrong.


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## KS

Guyz...the ATGM that LCH is supposed to carry is HELINA.
wats the status of it..?is it beyond development trials....
or any other missile will be used in the interim like PARS or HELLFIRE or LAHAT..?

nd wats the total weight of ammunition (useful load) that the LCH can carry..?


learned members pls answer...thx in advance


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## indianarmy2020

*exclusive : first pic of Light combat helicopter* 

*Maiden flight of lch*

Maiden Flight for India's New Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

Great Work HAL!! Congrats India....This is How you will Excel in technology and haters will just burn their hearts, let them sulk, you just carry on with excellent work!

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## Justin Joseph

liteon said:


> "How are you sure enough to doubt its capabilities?????
> I mean any specific reason or just assumption
> 
> plz read back posts you will get a better picture"
> 
> common sense
> 
> specs on paper vs. reality




what reality????

have u seen LCH or fly it your self to come on these type of conclusions????

or you just wanna troll?

Also, what we all Indians are appreciating is its cool design and specifications.

It's first prototype, as it's specifications are seems like one of the best we are happy with it.

*And in the end the war will decide what is the best or what is showpiece copied from the world.*


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## ironman

Karthic Sri said:


> Guyz...the ATGM that LCH is supposed to carry is HELINA.
> wats the status of it..?is it beyond development trials....



How about hearing from the master himself..






See from 7:58

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## PLAextream

tomluter said:


> Good job, it seems Indian have exceed Chinese in this field.
> Though there are some help from the Turbomeca, but it is still a advantage of India in international ralationship.




how india exceeded china in any respect ? just tell me.
or they develepod some thing better or earlier than what china has done.

by the way our wz10 is rolling in our plants other than a prototype.

but in other aspect at least india looks more promising compared to Pakistan .
india's LCH is quite ok as it looks in development phase .
after its compleation it would be intresting to compare these too birds
other wise it would be prejudices.


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## wangrong




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## ironman

PLAextream said:


> how india exceeded china in any respect ? just tell me.
> or they develepod some thing better or earlier than what china has done.
> 
> by the way our wz10 is rolling in our plants other than a prototype.
> 
> but in other aspect at least india looks more promising compared to Pakistan .
> india's LCH is quite ok as it looks in development phase .
> after its compleation it would be intresting to compare these too birds
> other wise it would be prejudices.



Hi buddy, China's WZ-10 is no were near to production. But it is only because of lack of engine. I believe all other parameters are met.


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## ironman

You can try better.. we are talking about LCH.

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## Mirza Jatt

dUDE..THIS IS ADVANCED LIGHT HELICOPTER(ALH)...forget it why am I telling you this.


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## Justin Joseph

Karthic Sri said:


> Guyz...the ATGM that LCH is supposed to carry is HELINA.
> wats the status of it..?is it beyond development trials....
> or any other missile will be used in the interim like PARS or HELLFIRE or LAHAT..?
> 
> nd wats the total weight of ammunition (useful load) that the LCH can carry..?
> 
> 
> learned members pls answer...thx in advance




Helina is under development.

LCH Useful load: 2950 kg (6503 lb)


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## wangrong

Join said:


> well sir, LCH more or less stands shoulder to shoulder to WZ-10
> 
> *LCH specifications​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CAIC WZ-10 specifications​*
> 
> 
> 
> ONCE THE LCH IS READY FULLY, IT SHOULD BE BETTER... WELL GOOD TO KNOW THAT HAL AND DRDO HAVE ACHIEVED IT





another z-10


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## Justin Joseph

PLAextream said:


> how india exceeded china in any respect ? just tell me.
> or they develepod some thing better or earlier than what china has done.
> 
> *by the way our wz10 is rolling in our plants other than a prototype.*
> 
> but in other aspect at least india looks more promising compared to Pakistan .
> india's LCH is quite ok as it looks in development phase .
> after its compleation it would be intresting to compare these too birds
> other wise it would be prejudices.




Can u provide any credible link in support of your claim??

If not, then plz.......buzz off


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## wangrong

ironman said:


> You can try better.. we are talking about LCH.



LCH use many ALH's Parts


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## Mirza Jatt

wangrong said:


> LCH use many ALH's Parts



did you dvelop LCH and ALH???? hhmm...anyways stop the BS now.


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## KS

ironman said:


> How about hearing from the master himself..
> 
> YouTube - India's Missile Programme: Past, present & future by Dr. V.K. Saraswat 01 of 03 [audio fixed]
> 
> See from 7:58




dude actually youtube not allowed im my office...
so if possibl jus a small summary of wat Dr.Saraswat said..?
thx in advance


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## KS

Justin Joseph said:


> Helina is under development.
> 
> LCH Useful load: 2950 kg (6503 lb)



2950 kg..?!?!?

man it should be one hell of a beast......


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## PLAextream

LT.PRATEEK said:


> You are simply not aware of reason behind designing LCH and its maneuverability
> 
> First and foremost important thing is - It should operate from LEH airfield which is at height of more than 10000 (highest airfield in world). No other attack chopper is capable of doing it , only light non-combat ALH-DHRUV have done that ,
> Bcoz of thin air and lower density of air Fighter jets have problem operating in combat load , this is where a direct takeoff from a chopper comes in handy.
> Another issue here is Supersonic jets that india operates are too dangerous to be successful in following Terrain guidance bcoz their speed is too fast.
> Thats where a subsonic maneuverable chopper comes in handy.
> 
> Whether it will be able to avoid LOCK ON depends on
> ECM given to it ,
> Type of A2A missile fired by Enemy and
> Added maneuverability is just an advantage.
> HAL would give a decent job to it since all EW suite components like RWR , MAWS are being finalized with the help from SWEDEN and FRANCE. No doubt it will be class apart.
> 
> *Now you tell me which A2A missile and what generation missile is used by Pakistan + China for its attack helicoptors.
> Whats the missile seeker+Range+added subsystem to jam enemy's EW suite and what abt the maneuverability of missile itself.
> 
> Then we can compare it to MBDA's A2A weapon on LCH.*
> 
> good news for INDIA is IA has been given Green signal to go ahead purchasing Heavy combat Helos like APACHE LONGBOW/ KA 52 ALLIGATOR worth 2 SQ and more in future ,
> conclusion LCH will complement this Force of unbeatable Choppers.
> 
> *And finally unit price is just 10.5 mill, now compare its capabilities to others at this price and what it offers.
> Here is the link*
> 
> Google Squared



is this the reasion if keeping it under weight(high air field of ladakh),but i thought it was india's first dedicated attack helo (there primary mission is of tank busters) do ladakh region have place for tank scenerio ?
as far as i know in that thin air environment this helo will have more difficulties than your super sonic jets. reamber when your airforce tried mi17 as attack role in kargil & later shot down by pak sam & later IAF zeroed only on fighter jets.

in high altitude helos like puma,chetek with munition add on will work beter(even tough very easy to get shot) than these armored copters.


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## PLAextream

Justin Joseph said:


> Can u provide any credible link in support of your claim??
> 
> If not, then plz.......buzz off



china is no india that jump on every small ocasion to blow its own trumpet.
we are comunist country & we dont advertise our secrets like DODO.

you will get conformation when we would like to.(pakistan purchasing it)


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## Mirza Jatt

PLAextream said:


> china is no india that jump on every small ocasion to blow its own trumpet.
> we are comunist country & we dont advertise our secrets like DODO.:



Its DRDO.... And yoy are right that you keep things secret.



> (pakistan purchasing it)



Why did you tell us that??? as if its really tough to guess..


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## BlackSonic

It is perfect for what India needs....no need for comparison.


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## KEETARP

saurabh said:


> Generally when we talk about low observability of aircraft, we do so in terms of its radar cross section or infrared emission.
> Can you elaborate what you mean by compromising LO feature and not RCS?



See let me make it simple 
*Low RCS design dosent mean that Design is also Stealth or LO*
Rcs reduction envolves extensive usage of RAM coatings and composites- example F18 and SU35 have extensive usage of RAM and composites to reduce Rcs but you cant term them as Stealth/Lo design.
LO design means that perfect shapings and cones are created that reduce Radar reflection going back.
Every design has some factor of RCS to it , but it dosent mean that it is perfectly Stealth also
In terms of Landing gear , you havent created a shaping so its not going to add you stealth factor,
Strictly speaking Rcs increasing or decreasing cant be commented bcoz - you cant apply RAM coatings/composites to reduce it.

*Regarding use of Fixed landing gear here is my explanation*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52331-lch-makes-first-flight-6.html#post766240

Finally a broader word is Stealth - and you include LO+RCS factor in it,there is very fine line of distinction btw these two words.
All these terms are used vaguely meaning same thing, but i treat them as different entity.


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## PLAextream

Indian Jatt said:


> Its DRDO.... And yoy are right that you keep things secret.
> 
> 
> 
> Why did you tell us that??? as if its really tough to guess..



JUST TO MAKE YOU REALISE JUST WHEN INDIA RUSHED TO RUSSIA TO BUY T90 AFTER REALIZING PAKISTAN GOING FOR T80UD, LEAVING ITS ARJUNK TO TRASH.
HOPE HISTORY DONT REPEAT WITH YOUR LCH.


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## Arik

PLAextream said:


> JUST TO MAKE YOU REALISE JUST WHEN INDIA RUSHED TO RUSSIA TO BUY T90 AFTER REALIZING PAKISTAN GOING FOR T80UD, LEAVING ITS ARJUNK TO TRASH.
> HOPE HISTORY DONT REPEAT WITH YOUR LCH.



The arjun has performed better than the T-90 in a recently held field test suprising even those officers who had criticized the tank earlier.

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## saurabh

LT.PRATEEK said:


> See let me make it simple
> *Low RCS design dosent mean that Design is also Stealth or LO*
> 
> Finally a *broader word is Stealth* - and you include LO+RCS factor in it,there is very fine line of distinction btw these two words.
> All these terms are used vaguely meaning same thing, but i treat them as different entity.



Now I get it, it was just a misunderstanding. You are equating LO to stealth, while I thought LO means LO, no relation with stealth.


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## PLAextream

Arik said:


> The arjun has performed better than the T-90 in a recently held field test suprising even those officers who had criticized the tank earlier.




can you provide a credible source other than some blogs


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## sancho

PLAextream said:


> can you provide a credible source other than some blogs



Stick to topic guys, no need to bring Arjun, or other arms in here! 

LCH, WZ-10 and Paks Cobras are in the same light class and are meant for the same roles fire support for ground troops and destroying armoured vehicles, not to fight each other, like fighters. So if we compare them it should be their capabilities regarding these roles. 
One of the most important points on LCH will be the ability to be used in high altitudes, which will give especially IA a good advantage in mountain areas.
Also the commonality to Dhruv will be a big advantage, with the same Shakti engine, avionics and soon also our indigenous Helina it will be a good and cost-effective addition!

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## aimarraul

PLAextream said:


> can you provide a credible source other than some blogs



there is no need to make those comment,bro.AH is definitely one of the weakest part of our defence.let's see if WZ10 can change that situation



ironman said:


> Hi buddy, China's WZ-10 is no were near to production. But *it is only because of lack of engine*. I believe all other parameters are met.



wrong about this,wozhou-8 is already widely used in our helicopter,WZ-10 is probably waiting for wozhou-9


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## Justin Joseph

PLAextream said:


> *china is no india that jump on every small ocasion to blow its own trumpet.*
> we are comunist country & we dont advertise our secrets like DODO.
> 
> you will get conformation when we would like to.(pakistan purchasing it):pakistan






1. kid, communist by definition is always known to blow their own trumpet. Their everything is based on propaganda. 

*2. If that is secrete how u come to know it?

3. If it is a national secrete of China then why are you disclosing it on a open international forum?*

4. Are u working against the PLA by disclosing their close guarded secretes??

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## tomluter

The test flight taken by a tourist, wz-10


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## PLAextream

CAN ANY ONE TELL HOW MANY COMPONENTS IN LCH ARE INDIAN OR IF ITS JUST SAME OLD STORY LIKE ALH DHRUV (OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE) .
I CAN BET THE WEAPON PLATFORM(ROCKET PODS TO BE INTEGRATED) IS IMPORTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH ALH.NOW OUR RESPECTED INDIAN MEMBERS WILL ARGUE "WE DEVELOPED HELENA(NAAG)" THEN QUESTION ARISE IS IT PROVEN. OF JUST IN TESTING PHASE JUST LIKE OLD DODO STORY(BARKING DOGS NEVER BYTES) .


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## Arik

PLAextream said:


> CAN ANY ONE TELL HOW MANY COMPONENTS IN LCH ARE INDIAN OR IF ITS JUST SAME OLD STORY LIKE ALH DHRUV (OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE) .
> I CAN BET THE WEAPON PLATFORM(ROCKET PODS TO BE INTEGRATED) IS IMPORTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH ALH.NOW OUR RESPECTED INDIAN MEMBERS WILL ARGUE "WE DEVELOPED HELENA(NAAG)" THEN QUESTION ARISE IS IT PROVEN. OF JUST IN TESTING PHASE JUST LIKE OLD DODO STORY(BARKING DOGS NEVER BYTES) .



Can u tell me how many aircrafts China has *Designed* on its own.Every chinese euipment is copied.
Components are not the issue here.Boeing is an american company ,but hardly any of the components for the 787 are manufactured in USA.F-18 is an american plane but India manufactures its belly doors.Airbus is a european company but India manufactures doors for the A-320.


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## imran iqbal

PLAextream said:


> CAN ANY ONE TELL HOW MANY COMPONENTS IN LCH ARE INDIAN OR IF ITS JUST SAME OLD STORY LIKE ALH DHRUV (OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE) .
> I CAN BET THE WEAPON PLATFORM(ROCKET PODS TO BE INTEGRATED) IS IMPORTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH ALH.NOW OUR RESPECTED INDIAN MEMBERS WILL ARGUE "WE DEVELOPED HELENA(NAAG)" THEN QUESTION ARISE IS IT PROVEN. OF JUST IN TESTING PHASE JUST LIKE OLD DODO STORY(DOGS NEVER BYTES) .



While you guys are at comparing LCH with WZ-10 and all the foreign parts and R&D, let me set the record straight



> The origins of WZ-10 date as far back as 1979, when China began to explore ways of countering the advance of large enemy armour formations that would attack in great numbers.



I hope some Chinese members would be ashamed to call LCA a failed project now citing the painfully long development period of WZ-10



> While attempting to import foreign attack helicopters resulted in failure, domestic research continued to reveal the shortcomings of China's current fleet of helicopters exposed by war games.



Foreign components in ALH, eh???



> After the continuous failures in introducing heavier helicopters of foreign origin to China, the 6-ton class China Medium Helicopter (CHM) program was started in 1994 by China, with the 602nd and 608th Research Institutes as the leading designers. *Under this ostensibly civilian program, various key western helicopter manufacturers provided considerable technical assistance to the later WZ-10 development program, including Eurocopter (rotor installation design consultancy), Pratt & Whitney Canada (PT6C turboshaft engine) and Agusta Westland (transmission)
> Some foreign assistance from South Africa has been confirmed, which provided limited help in the area of flight stability based on the experience from designing the Denel AH-2 Rooivalk. South Africa refused further Chinese requests for assistance and no contact was made after 2001.*



And oh yeah, DRDO or my chinese friend who put out nicely, DODO, needs soul searching for himself. Delays..Delays and more delays



> The repeated failures in obtaining foreign attack helicopters reinforced feelings that China had no choice but to ignore foreign options and develop its own such aircraft and work on the WZ-10 accelerated. In the same year, HAMC transferred most of its production responsibilities to CAIC of AVIC II. The official reason given was excessive workload; HAMC was busy producing the HC120 and Harbin Z-9, as well as other fixed wing aircraft such as the Harbin Y-12, and thus was stretched to the limit. *However, many speculated that HAMC was not performing well enough due to rigid and ineffective Soviet-style management practices, believed to have caused the company to go into debt.*



HAMC was in debt?? Holysh1t



> . It was decided that the WZ-10 program was too important to be run by HAMC, so a more stable contractor was sought and CAIC was selected. HAMC still retained responsibility for production of certain sub-systems and components, for which it could utilize experience gained from manufacturing parts for foreign helicopters and fixed wing aircraft such as the Embraer ERJ 145 family.



*Avionics*



> Although foreign technologies are utilized (particularly French and Israeli, as rumored), this is limited to hardware only



*Flight instrumentation*



> There are two configurations of the flight instrumentation for WZ-10, one developed from similar *foreign system (rumored to be French), and the other one is indigenously developed, and both configurations share the same holographic head-up display. The difference in layout between the two configurations is that in one configuration, there are three color LCD multi-function displays (MFD), while the other, these are replaced by two larger LCD MFDs. Its not clear which one is originated from foreign system and which is indigenously developed, but its reported that the practice of having different configurations thanks to the modular design is for export purposes, to fit the potential customer countries pilots habits. However, there is a rumor that China initially lacked the faith in its domestic system during the early stage of the development of WZ-10, due to the backward Chinese industrial capability at the time, so a backup was developed in parallel as a precaution*



*Cockpit*


> The bottom and sides of the cockpit are protected by composite armor, and so are the engines and the fuel tank located in the middle of the fuselage. It is rumored that titanium armor was developed for the WZ-10, but this had to be given up because of the weight. But this problem may be solved as more powerful engines become available in the future.



*Propulsion*


> *The modular design of WZ-10 enables it to adopt a number of turboshaft engines. However, the multiple choices of engines have much more to do with the inability of Chinese industry to provide the necessary power plants for WZ-10 in time than the success of modular design concept. At least three type of turboshaft engines have been successfully tested for WZ-10, all of them foreign built. Russian Klimov VK-2500 turboshaft engine that powers Mil Mi-17s sold to China is among the ones used, and so are the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C that powers civilian helicopters of western origin in Chinese service. Ukrainian Motor-Sich TV3-117 that powers Mil Mi-28 has also successfully tested, and Ukrainians are helping Chinese to develop its own indigenous turboshaft engine. Its rumored that European MTR390 that powers Eurocopter Tiger has also been selected, but this cannot be confirmed. Due to the delay in the developing of Chinese domestic engines, all prototypes and pre-production series of WZ-10 are powered by foreign engines.*



Wow, such a shameful record and Chinese troll on LCH thread with impunity



> *The future, long-term engines for the WZ-10 will be the domestic WZ-9 (WZ = Wo Zhou, &#28065;&#36724, designed by the 602nd Research Institute, with Ukrainian and Russian assistance.Wozhou-9 is the least powerful engine out of the five tested for WZ-10, *WZ-10 is not stealthy, but careful attentions have been given to reduce its electro-magnetic characteristics to reduce the probability of being detected. Another planned measure is to incorporate laser altimeter pioneered by Israel, which would reduce the probability of intercept by enemys electronic support measures in comparison to traditional radar altimeter, which emits radio/radar signals, while laser is far less prone to interception.



*Cannon*



> *The largest caliber of chain gun carried by WZ-10 is a 30 mm automatic gun, a Chinese development of the Russian 2A72 autocannon for aircraft use. One of the primary reasons to adopt the 2A72 30 mm gun for aerial use is its high reliability, and according to Russian claim, the failure rate of 2A72 is nearly zero. The most powerful autocannon that can be mounted on the WZ-10 is the Chinese reverse-engineered 25 mm M242 Bushmaster adopted for helicopter use. *



CAIC WZ-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*31 years of R&D coupled with billions of yuan wasted on reverse engineered piece of Junk and you are ranting about LCH ?? Why don't bring your own house in order before spewing out your prejudice here idiot.*

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## AVADI

PLAextream said:


> CAN ANY ONE TELL HOW MANY COMPONENTS IN LCH ARE INDIAN OR IF ITS JUST SAME OLD STORY LIKE ALH DHRUV (*OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE*) .
> I CAN BET THE WEAPON PLATFORM(ROCKET PODS TO BE INTEGRATED) IS IMPORTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH ALH.NOW OUR RESPECTED INDIAN MEMBERS WILL ARGUE "WE DEVELOPED HELENA(NAAG)" THEN QUESTION ARISE IS IT PROVEN. OF JUST IN TESTING PHASE JUST LIKE OLD DODO STORY(BARKING DOGS NEVER BYTES) .



Still better than Old wine in newly painted old bottle.

P.s:Go easy on the CAPS

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## Arik

PLAextream said:


> can you provide a credible source other than some blogs



http://business-standard.com/india/news/.../389650


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## KEETARP

PLAextream said:


> is this the reasion if keeping it under weight(high air field of ladakh),but i thought it was india's first dedicated attack helo (there primary mission is of tank busters) do ladakh region have place for tank scenerio ?
> as far as i know in that thin air environment this helo will have more difficulties than your super sonic jets. reamber when your airforce tried mi17 as attack role in kargil & later shot down by pak sam & later IAF zeroed only on fighter jets.
> 
> in high altitude helos like puma,chetek with munition add on will work beter(even tough very easy to get shot) than these armored copters.



Nope you are wrong - Tank buster is MIl-35 and next will be AH64 longbow.
*Secondly Mi-17 is not attack chopper its A Medium Lift Chopper , it does not have any EW suite , no countermeasures , no RWR , no MAWS , so it got shot down*
LCH is created to work in dense EW environment, with extreme Manuverability
With latest EW suite from SAAB and ISRAEL
RWR+MAWS also from Sweden , 
New Fuselage design with airframe shapings to give minimum IR emissions and descent LO.
Just to give advantage from SAM's and hand fired Stinger missile.
And it can also fill role of CAS,COIN operation which you are doubting

Also Chetak is a utility helicoptor required for evacuation from high altitude bcoz Troops have to be rotated every 4 weeks since they have danger of devloping Lung edema and failure. Its not armed if you think so.
HAL is also designing LUH for that utility only and replace Chetak.
I say this bcoz i am in Indian Army - look my profile and i have experience of Chetak and Mi17

*Still you havent replied - In which part you think Chinese Z10 is superior , plz read this link and specify where *
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52331-lch-makes-first-flight-6.html#post766226

And look Buddy - when you answer a post , self-assuming and calling something crap and DODO ,you invite others to get on you. As other members are replying to you
Read my all posts not a single place , i called your Helos crap .
If you want a good discussion keep it Technical . This is how mature forum discussion work
compare on -systems ,weapons and specs rather than self assuming things

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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

For people who are incapable and rely on others for survival- Grapes are always sour!!


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## Indian-Devil

PLAextream said:


> CAN ANY ONE TELL HOW MANY COMPONENTS IN LCH ARE INDIAN OR IF ITS JUST SAME OLD STORY LIKE ALH DHRUV (OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE) .
> I CAN BET THE WEAPON PLATFORM(ROCKET PODS TO BE INTEGRATED) IS IMPORTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH ALH.NOW OUR RESPECTED INDIAN MEMBERS WILL ARGUE "WE DEVELOPED HELENA(NAAG)" THEN QUESTION ARISE IS IT PROVEN. OF JUST IN TESTING PHASE JUST LIKE OLD DODO STORY(BARKING DOGS NEVER BYTES) .



If LCH is able to take down our enemies tanks with Helina or any imported anti tank missiles and able to provide air support to ground forces we are happy with it.

You cant ask the copy rights at the time when its firing its armaments on the enemies troops or Tank regiments.

And lets not compare our machines with others and stick to the topic.

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## PLAextream

Arik said:


> Can u tell me how many aircrafts China has *Designed* on its own.Every chinese euipment is copied.
> Components are not the issue here.Boeing is an american company ,but hardly any of the components for the 787 are manufactured in USA.F-18 is an american plane but India manufactures its belly doors.Airbus is a european company but India manufactures doors for the A-320.




oh! india manufacture doors for air bus, but china manufactures its own airbus.
had copieng would have bin so easy ,india would have at least copied a decent assult rifile other than INSAS let alone bigger hardware.


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## PLAextream

Arik said:


> http://business-standard.com/india/news/.../389650



what a bull **** are they testing this tank,by credible source i ment official words of IA not any cheep crap buddy.
better try next time


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## PLAextream

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Nope you are wrong - Tank buster is MIl-35 and next will be AH64 longbow.
> *Secondly Mi-17 is not attack chopper its A Medium Lift Chopper , it does not have any EW suite , no countermeasures , no RWR , no MAWS , so it got shot down*
> LCH is created to work in dense EW environment, with extreme Manuverability
> With latest EW suite from SAAB and ISRAEL
> RWR+MAWS also from Sweden ,
> New Fuselage design with airframe shapings to give minimum IR emissions and descent LO.
> Just to give advantage from SAM's and hand fired Stinger missile.
> And it can also fill role of CAS,COIN operation which you are doubting
> 
> Also Chetak is a utility helicoptor required for evacuation from high altitude bcoz Troops have to be rotated every 4 weeks since they have danger of devloping Lung edema and failure. Its not armed if you think so.
> HAL is also designing LUH for that utility only and replace Chetak.
> I say this bcoz i am in Indian Army - look my profile and i have experience of Chetak and Mi17
> 
> *Still you havent replied - In which part you think Chinese Z10 is superior , plz read this link and specify where *
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52331-lch-makes-first-flight-6.html#post766226
> 
> And look Buddy - when you answer a post , self-assuming and calling something crap and DODO ,you invite others to get on you. As other members are replying to you
> Read my all posts not a single place , i called your Helos crap .
> If you want a good discussion keep it Technical . This is how mature forum discussion work
> compare on -systems ,weapons and specs rather than self assuming things



i keep a high respect for any defence personnel be it from our advisories . & you are my fav1. 
as far as using mi17 in kargil is concerned it is a documented fact as other copters of india wher incapable to operate there..
as far as DRDO is concerned i feel its only a cost/time over run organisation,i heard it was manufacturing mosquito replient cream,berry juice, growing patato in ladakh other than doing its actual task.
sir i hold no grudges agst any 1, be it india or else.
this may be my last post as my university exams are near.
what ever i posted ,just to test your responce nothing else.
HAL doing nice job & may be LCH would see some exports when its parameters are met.


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## lhuang

Let's just hope it doesn't turn out to be an LCA and not be inducted 10 years after first flight


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## letsbefriends

any news abt the engine selection for MK 2??i thought the decision had to be finalised in march..jst cant wait for mk 2 with decent engine with enough thrust and hopefully TVC, AESA radar, superior avionics n everything a quality aircraft should have to fly in indian colors


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

lhuang said:


> Let's just hope it doesn't turn out to be an LCA and not be inducted 10 years after first flight



10 yrs? Do u even know how much time it takes to design and develop and a/c , Rafale took more than 26-30 years of R&D, with Dassault/France having years of Aviation experience (same goes for other projects), and is still getting further developed. Indian HAL, on the other hand with its shoe-lace budget has met all its parameters for TEJAS and in process of induction by this year. Give HAL a break, from 2nd Generation Marut to 4.5 Generation is a BIG leap (not reverse engineering or modifying Russian tech.). Hope you are able to understand what I have said.


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## lhuang

Pralay_Nath_ForYou said:


> 10 yrs? Do u even know how much time it takes to design and develop and a/c , Rafale took more than 26-30 years of R&D, with Dassault/France having years of Aviation experience (same goes for other projects), and is still getting further developed. Indian HAL, on the other hand with its shoe-lace budget has met all its parameters for TEJAS and in process of induction by this year. Give HAL a break, from 2nd Generation Marut to 4.5 Generation is a BIG leap (not reverse engineering or modifying Russian tech.). Hope you are able to understand what I have said.



What HAL has done is commendable I suppose, I'm talking about induction time from date of first flight.

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## DMLA

wonderful news indeed. I just hope that they are able to get these birds inducted in numbers post 2015. 

At the same time, I believe Ka-52 is a good option for IAF (more than the RFP of 22 being talked about). The twin seat monster already has many IAI inputs (thanks to the turkish competition). It can carry 16 anti tank missiles AND 2 rocket pods at the same time (it has 6 hardpoints). It also has 2 radars (one for air targets and one for ground targets), optro electronic pod and 30mm 2A42 cannon. I hope we get these birds asap. I also hope IAF increases the number from 22 to 60+ and LCH is inducted in numbers by the IA alone (more than 150) relegating specific roles to each branch!







anyhow, this thread is for LCH... all the very best to DRDO for future work on this bird!

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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

PLAextream said:


> i keep a high respect for any defence personnel be it from our advisories . & you are my fav1.
> as far as using mi17 in kargil is concerned it is a documented fact as other copters of india wher incapable to operate there..
> as far as DRDO is concerned i feel its only a cost/time over run organisation,i heard it was manufacturing mosquito replient cream,berry juice, growing patato in ladakh other than doing its actual task.
> sir i hold no grudges agst any 1, be it india or else.
> this may be my last post as my university exams are near.
> what ever i posted ,just to test your responce nothing else.
> HAL doing nice job & may be LCH would see some exports when its parameters are met.



As Per DRDO Growing Potatoes and Berry Juice-Experimentation at High Altitudes issue is concerned, I don't know much. BUT, even if they are into it, that's what Defense Research and Development Stands for, R&D for Defense purposes, even if it involves making platoons and unit self-sufficient in food production at bad and difficult terrains (Obviously, DRDO is a large organization and not all of DRDO manpower must have been involved in this project, leaving every other priority projects behind).

As per your cost/benefit analysis about DRDO, we know what DRDO has achieved and done for the country, in the field of making the nation self-reliant by working from scratch. Today we are amongst the very few countries which are on the path of manufacturing their own missiles, helicopters, Air crafts, Tanks etc etc 

Nobody holds any grudge againt you too, go ahead and crack your examz!! All the Best! Hope you pass with flying colors!

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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

lhuang said:


> What HAL has done is commendable I suppose, I'm talking about induction time from date of first flight.



Brother, IAF have had requested frequent changes in technical requirements in Tejas, i.e being very demanding and obviously it has taken some time. But nonetheless, the production is in full swing, you will soon witness induction ceremony this year end or start of 2011.

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## bumbgola

PLAextream said:


> oh! india manufacture doors for air bus, but china manufactures its own airbus.
> had copieng would have bin so easy ,india would have at least copied a decent assult rifile other than INSAS let alone bigger hardware.



China has not been able to copy democracy, despite a good try in '76. BS meet BS.

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## liteon

This is like LCA v.s. J10 all over again.lol Can't you just wait until induction first before comparing..?

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/644/z10zg.jpg


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

liteon said:


> This is like LCA v.s. J10 all over again.lol Can't you just wait until induction first before comparing..?
> 
> http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/644/z10zg.jpg



Who is comparing? There can't b any comparison with Chinese products, they are class apart!


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## bumbgola

PLAextream said:


> what a bull **** are they testing this tank,by credible source i ment official words of IA not any cheep crap buddy.
> better try next time



Seems you are one Chinese that trusts official IA speak, what is your view on the 2 front war doctrine that has been recently officiated by IA ? 

Why do you selectively choose to disbelieve?

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## bumbgola

LT.PRATEEK said:


> It should operate from LEH airfield



Why does anything air borne in India have to earn its stripes at Leh? With the newly expounded blitzkrieg strategy in IA, looking at victory in couple of days or thereabouts, we only need to make sure this works in the plains of Pakistan  & that we have sufficient numbers to keep advancing despite attrition.

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## bumbgola

PLAextream said:


> oh! india manufacture doors for air bus, but china manufactures its own airbus.
> had copieng would have bin so easy ,india would have at least copied a decent assult rifile other than INSAS let alone bigger hardware.



I don't know why Indians make it look so hard, after all the art of reverse engineering has been mastered quite successfully by our neighbour to the north. BTW Why is China still calling it an airbus?

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## bumbgola

tomluter said:


> The test flight taken by a tourist, wz-10
> YouTube - 2009 8 7 wz10



It appears as though it retreats better than it advances?!

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## bumbgola

Moorkh said:


> i have a small doubt, the landing gear in both the LCH and the WZ-10 is not retractable. this means they will be sticking out the whole time, wont this severely affect its radar cross-section?



Attack helicopters are usually fronters for an advancing armoured/road mobile missile column. So in the usual requirement they should fly low, which because of ground noise makes them as it is very very hard to detect. If they fly high the enemy aircraft can easily knock them out. I don't know if stealth was even part of the GSQR. More likely they want a bird that can deliver a knock out punch, be nimble in air, and have a thick hide to take a few hits before it either goes down or takes evasive action. In case it goes down the landing gear acts as a roll cage.

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## RPK



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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

^^^^^

Grt pics Praveen!! I think they are two different camera guys, because the angels and altitudes are different. Any Video or they are keeping it secret?


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## sudhir007

whaaaaaa on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Kinetic

Good pics praveen. It looks like they have tried hard to make it stealth as far as possible. I would like to see it in large number in IA/IAF/IN service. It along with Arjun, Abhay, Pinaka and Bhim can be a formidable tactical combination.


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## PLAextream

bumbgola said:


> I don't know why Indians make it look so hard, after all the art of reverse engineering has been mastered quite successfully by our neighbour to the north. BTW Why is China still calling it an airbus?



bcas it has capicity of bus ,flying in air
i came to know that india is making a 10-14 seater palne named saras,nice try may be later you could copy an air bus like we did.


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## Join

PLAextream said:


> bcas it has capicity of bus ,flying in air
> i came to know that india is making a 10-14 seater palne named saras,nice try may be later you could copy an air bus like we did.




Then You should also come to know that India has moved to another project called RTA-70.....Hope u have see the pictures aswell.... Now that I have given you the aircrafts name, please dont forget to add it while criticizing everything you see around


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

PLAextream said:


> bcas it has capicity of bus ,flying in air
> i came to know that india is making a 10-14 seater palne named saras,nice try may be later you could copy an air bus like we did.



Thanks for the offer, but We would like to reserve department of copying, stealing, lying, exaggerating etc to our beloved neighbor which has already mastered all these occult arts!


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> Good pics praveen. It looks like they have tried hard to make it stealth as far as possible. I would like to see it in large number in IA/IAF/IN service. It along with Arjun, Abhay, Pinaka and Bhim can be a formidable tactical combination.


The problem is IA I would say! Arjun ordered only in small numbers yet, Abhay AFAIK only tech demonstrator with no orders in sight, Bhim first order of 100 was cancelled because of bribery problems, which leaves only Pinaka in relative good numbers I think.
Tank EX should be a good solution for T72 upgrade, but IA rejected it before if I'm not wrong, not even bridge layer,or repair and recovery versions of Arjun was ordered, but that could have the same reason that Arjun have to face, bad logistics.
IA tend to foreign arms and less to indigenous developments like IAF, or IN. They also will get the main part of foreign LUH, while HALs LOH might be mainly used by IAF and IN again. At least LCH order looks good so far, but who knows if IA will reduce it later in favour for more HCH like Apache?


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## PLAextream

Pralay_Nath_ForYou said:


> Thanks for the offer, but We would like to reserve department of copying, stealing, lying, exaggerating etc to our beloved neighbor which has already mastered all these occult arts!



oh, does this mean what ever india developed was a new invention which never exist ever in the world.
grow up , you could not copy mig21 (underlisence) which keep falling now & then & call us stealer ,then you are living in DENIAL MODE.

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## satishkumarcsc

PLAextream said:


> oh, does this mean what ever india developed was a new invention which never exist ever in the world.
> grow up , you could not copy mig21 (underlisence) which keep falling now & then & call us stealer ,then you are living in DENIAL MODE.



We never copied the MiG 21. What are you talking about?


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## jagjitnatt

satishkumarcsc said:


> We never copied the MiG 21. What are you talking about?



he seems to be too obsessed with copying everything. When will he understand there exists a world beyond china, who does not believe in copying everything?


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## Justin Joseph

PLAextream said:


> oh, does this mean what ever india developed was a new invention which never exist ever in the world.
> grow up , you could not copy mig21 (underlisence) which keep falling now & then & call us stealer ,then you are living in DENIAL MODE.



@Mods

This person is deliberately derailing thread with off topic post to get the thread closed.

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## bumbgola

PLAextream said:


> bcas it has capicity of bus ,flying in air



you guys could not be innovative even with the name? Suggestion: How about calling it &#31354;&#20013;&#23458;&#36710; ? Savvy?

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## Lilo

> *Inside story: Team LCH upbeat over maiden flight*
> 
> 
> Its champagne time. Work hard and party hard -- that's the fair norm even in the business of plane-making. And, Team LCH is exactly doing that. A toast after the triumph. A toast for tomorrow.
> Just days after the maiden flight of their light and lethal chopper, Light Combat Helicopter, the mood at Camp LCH inside the heavily fortified Helicopter Complex in Bangalore is just what the doctor ordered. Throwing the media gag imposed by a bunch of nil-sighted babus at the top, a group of passionate members of Team LCH spoke their hearts out to tarmak007. Heres the best-cut of what they shared, in their own words, at one of the finest waterholes located close to a golf course near Bangalores old airport.
> Morale high: The morale of entire team is sky-high and we had to wait for little more than what we expected to see the machine fly. There were issues and there are issues. But then, this is a prototype and there are bound to be some concerns. That much benefit of doubt should be given to any new programs. We know what it takes to make an aircraft fly for the first time or be it 500th or even the 2000th time. But, we are saddened every time something goes wrong. The ALH is a great platform, but despite our best efforts it got us some bad publicity. Our confidence was dented, not once, many times. But now LCH has again triggered our morale. Engineers, designers, technicians and pilots are not robots. They have emotions. Since you (tarmak007) know how the company functions, we got to put up with lot of 'stupid stuff on a daily basis. You dont have any choice. We know our strengths. We knew, we could. Now, we are bit relaxed.
> Home-grown effort: Unlike the ALH, this program, right from word-go to till date, this project has been complete Indian. Thats a huge credit for us. It reinforces once again our capabilities in rolling out machines that can match the best in the world, using home-grown talent and technologies. Only India, China and Pakistan have terrains with such high-altitudes and here an attack helicopter plays a huge role during a conflict. Kargil was a classic case. If only we had the LCHs then, may be...! We are extremely proud and delighted that we now have a mean machine from our own hangars. This reinforces our capabilities in indigenization. As designers and engineers, we are elated that we could build something that these pilots wanted.
> Services happy: We have been receiving calls from all quarters based on the initial reports of the March 29th flight. The Services are extremely happy with what ever we have achieved. They have complimented our efforts and are looking forward to see the platform goes through the future processes swiftly, meeting all parameters. At the end of the day, its their baby. They will nurture it over the years. We never had so much of positive comments coming from so many quarters at one go. The signs are good. Theres a saying among aviation fraternity -- Whats looking good, will fly good. We hope it will. It should.
> One force: LCHs future will depend upon various factors within the company, much of it is known to all. Honestly, theres some apprehensions expressed all over right now. While its easy to make comments or point finger at someone, we feel there must be a complete new way of thinking to take this project to its logical end  induction into Services. Program management is the key. Can we have a group now completely dedicated to LCH, working on the project day in and day out? We have to be at it all the time. We knew what went wrong in the past. Why things got delayed? Why things are getting delayed? We are confident and its possible. You got to have the will. A will and a vision. Also, the media must give us some breathing space. Let LCH enter a concrete phase and then lets evaluate it. An early call based on hear-say and just one look wont work. We need your backing.
> That was it. An up-close with Team LCH. Short n sweet. Surely they deserve all the pat, including the team captain R. Srinivasan, the God-fearing and down-to-earth soul.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tailpiece: The LCH is scheduled to start its test flying regularly from Monday, April 5, 2010, if insiders were to be believed. It will have enough flights logged before the show of strength for mantris, defence babus and the media. As reported by tarmak007 in the previous blog  a first official flight after the first original flight! The tentative dates now made available are April 22 or April 23. The date could still change, they say.
> 
> Inside story: Team LCH upbeat over maiden flight



The toil behind LCH, from tarmak's blog.

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## Arik

PLAextream said:


> oh! india manufacture doors for air bus, but china manufactures its own airbus.
> had copieng would have bin so easy ,india would have at least copied a decent assult rifile other than INSAS let alone bigger hardware.



China manufactures airbuses under license from the parent company .Chinese engineers are not designing those planes.Chinas own civilian aircrraft (ARJ) is nothing but the carbon copy of the DC-9.Chinas space capsule which carries people to space is a carbon copy of the russian soyuz.
And for your info agusta westland will start manufacturing helicopters in India soon.
Flight - Airline Industry news, aviation jobs & airline recruitment

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## Arik

PLAextream said:


> oh, does this mean what ever india developed was a new invention which never exist ever in the world.
> grow up , you could not copy mig21 (underlisence) which keep falling now & then & call us stealer ,then you are living in DENIAL MODE.



India never produced the mig-21 under license.


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## gogbot

Arik said:


> India never produced the mig-21 under license.



Mig-21's were manufactured in India since the 1960's

The soviet Union gave India Full ToT and rights to license production.


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

PLAextream said:


> oh, does this mean what ever india developed was a new invention which never exist ever in the world.
> grow up , you could not copy mig21 (underlisence) which keep falling now & then & call us stealer ,then you are living in DENIAL MODE.



I think others have given you appropriate replies, that producing under-license and paying for the goods (Can never be called copying) , BUT yes stealing documents, designs etc and then producing cheap look-alikes is definitely Stealing!! No doubt u ppl live in DELUSION MODE


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## Ruag

fellow countrymen.

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## ramu

Ruag said:


> I don't know if these images have been shared before, but in case if you haven't seem them yet --
> 
> 
> 
> fellow countrymen.



Among the onlookers is my Dad !!! He finished 34 years of service and retired on 31st of March 2010. How I wish he had taken a few snaps as a souvenir.

Gr8 pictures.

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## Hulk

We should not go in discussion on cheating copying etc. End of the day what matters is that if we have the capacity to make a combat helicopter. Same applies for others.


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## chinapakistan

Arik said:


> Chinas space capsule which carries people to space is a carbon copy of the russian soyuz.
> Flight - Airline Industry news, aviation jobs & airline recruitment



Stop BS without src supporting. But I know that indian will borrow russian spaceship and send russian spaceman to the space using russian rockets, and indian call that a great achivement. It is really unbelevable.


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## ajpirzada

*stick to the topic or else ill close this thread *


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## desiman

wow so many deleted post, must be a record lol


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## yashraj

desiman said:


> wow so many deleted post, must be a record lol



wow.... our LCH look really beautiful . but let me dance first


sorry i am late, but i was banned for week for telling some FACTS about JF -17.......

hey Desi dog does lch is going to have Radar on it's top

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## Mahakaya

MZUBAIR said:


> 1) Sources plz?
> 2) Which engine is finalized for LCA?
> 3) Which radar is finalized for LCA?
> 4) Is the production is started?
> 
> Please post the references to prove your quotes.
> 
> Thank you



Production is already on as we speak - The First 40 aircrafts will be delivered to the IAF by the End of 2011 - The First 20 by the end of 2010.

The Mark 2 version will be developed on the sidelines of MK-1 production so as soon as the assembly line gets free the MK-2 production is started. Right now the right time frame for MK-2 production to start is by 2012.

As for Mark 2 - there are rumours that the Elta EM 2052 Aesa Radar will be used. The current MK1 engine is GE-F404 IN 20 which better than the one which powered the first prototypes. The next engines as we all know will be either the EJ-200 (with or without TVC) or the GE-414.

The Choice of the engine will depend on the MMRCA deal. If the SH is selected then GE-414 (or even the Gripen) and if Typhoon then the EJ-200.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> DRDO's AESA EFFORT WITH LRDE FOR LCA and AEW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Power rating of 3.5-5 is quite less but since it is first attempt anything will be accepted.
> Everything apart DRDO logo on image does looks nice



Fighters generally have X band AESA radars. S and L bands are more favoured by non-US AWACS and surveillance radar platforms. Thus I would contend that the said development may be for the DRDO AWACS but not for LCA. The recent RFI by DRDO for T/R modules for an AESA radar program for LCA seems to point us to the same conclusion.

Just to give you an idea; Zhuk-AE, APG-79, SABR, APG-80 are all X-band radars.


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## jha

Mahakaya said:


> Production is already on as we speak - The First 40 aircrafts will be delivered to the IAF by the End of 2011 - The First 20 by the end of 2010.
> 
> The Mark 2 version will be developed on the sidelines of MK-1 production so as soon as the assembly line gets free the MK-2 production is started. Right now the right time frame for MK-2 production to start is by 2012.
> 
> As for Mark 2 - there are rumours that the Elta EM 2052 Aesa Radar will be used. The current MK1 engine is GE-F404 IN 20 which better than the one which powered the first prototypes. The next engines as we all know will be either the EJ-200 (with or without TVC) or the GE-414.
> 
> The Choice of the engine will depend on the MMRCA deal. If the SH is selected then GE-414 (or even the Gripen) and if Typhoon then the EJ-200.



what if RAFALE is chosen GURUJI....


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## Raje amar

jha said:


> what if RAFALE is chosen GURUJI....



then we have choice of fitting Kaveri/ secam in it as well


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## Pralay_Nath_ForYou

This money was needed for a long time!! This will not just help further production but further R&D into LCA Mk2 Program and our Fifth Generation MCA!!

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## Merilion

Mahakaya said:


> Production is already on as we speak - The First 40 aircrafts will be delivered to the IAF by the End of 2011 - The First 20 by the end of 2010.
> 
> The Mark 2 version will be developed on the sidelines of MK-1 production so as soon as the assembly line gets free the MK-2 production is started. Right now the right time frame for MK-2 production to start is by 2012.



why ppl is still counting the number of test flights of LCA if the mass production already started? Now it's April 2010 and are you really expecting IAF to receive 20 LCA by the end of 2010? and I read somewhere that the production capacity of LCA is capped at 8 per year? MK2 production start by 2012?


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## Mahakaya

Merilion said:


> why ppl is still counting the number of test flights of LCA if the mass production already started? Now it's April 2010 and are you really expecting IAF to receive 20 LCA by the end of 2010? and I read somewhere that the production capacity of LCA is capped at 8 per year? MK2 production start by 2012?



Retard - The FoC will be received by 2012 and LCA MK 2 will most likely start by 2012 because it is already being worked upon while we speak.

&#8216;India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year&#8217;

It is extendable to 12 aircrafts per year. I am sure ADA and HAL will come up with a way to get the 40 by 2012-13 time frame. And the MK2 does not need many modifications. If EJ 200 then none, and now even GE has stated that the GE-414 IN will most likely not need any modifications too.

So Happy TROLLING RETARD!

But tell me what happened to the J-10 when it crashed? do you have any idea?



OR Why has the FC-1 not been inducted into your AF?


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## Mahakaya

jha said:


> what if RAFALE is chosen GURUJI....



Yes Sir Ji, then i believe they already would have an answer for which one to chose and might be just sitting on it to see which aircraft is given the clearance!

But I think the Snecma M88 with higher thrust will be bigger for the LCA?


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## manish123

Mahakaya said:


> Yes Sir Ji, then i believe they already would have an answer for which one to chose and might be just sitting on it to see which aircraft is given the clearance!
> 
> But I think the Snecma M88 with higher thrust will be bigger for the LCA?



The germans have assured us that all american parts in EF will be substituted.With Ej200 we seem to be headed for the EF, keeping all four countries happy.

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## CONNAN




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## sancho

jha said:


> what if RAFALE is chosen GURUJI....



Keep in mind that this deal is only for 100 + 50 optional engines and the aim behind it is, to get a proven and ready engine that needs the least ammount of changes. Also IAF/MoD are still interested in Kaveri-Snecma co-development, what means that they could go for 100-150 EJ 200/GE 414, but when Kaveri-Snecma engine is ready, could integrate this engine for further (LCA MK3?), or export orders.

The benefits are obvious, less dependance on foreign nations (especially the US) for IAF, as well as export customers. More indigenous parts in LCA, what was aimed from the start of the development and that LCA could be cheaper, because Kaveri-Snecma engine should still be cheaper than GE 414.

This engine deal and the MMRCA competition are not directly linked with each other (even Euro Jet said that in the Livefist report), but of course it would reduce the logistical costs of IAF to have less different engines. So if Rafale would be chosen in MMRCA and it is offered with integration of Kaveri-Snecma engine, it will offer common engines only for further orders, or later blocks.


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## Indian-Devil

desiman said:


> wow so many deleted post, must be a record lol



Donot know yaar , why these chineese person start posting things which are not even related to topic. You see any of the topic, LCH , Stealth Frigates etc etc.

We should not be replying to those guys and concentrate on our engineer's achivements.

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## KEETARP

manish123 said:


> The germans have assured us that all american parts in EF will be substituted.With Ej200 we seem to be headed for the EF, keeping all four countries happy.



Any source MANISH.

As far as i know- Only METEOR replacing AIM120 is in line , that too by 2017.


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## manish123

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Any source MANISH.
> 
> As far as i know- Only METEOR replacing AIM120 is in line , that too by 2017.



Sure but will give u in the morning.

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## BJlaowai

Indian-Devil said:


> Donot know yaar , why these chineese person start posting things which are not even related to topic. You see any of the topic, LCH , Stealth Frigates etc etc.
> 
> We should not be replying to those guys and concentrate on our engineer's achivements.



This is a often repeated story. Any post reporting some good news from India gets derailed pretty soon. I would blame the stupid Indian members here who fall into the classic and very obvious trap laid by trolls from Chinese and Pakistani members. 
I don't understand why the Indian members don't have the sense to recognize the flame bait and instead of reporting it, they take it too personally and start making more stupid responses and a really good thread goes down the sewer.
Not only noobs, but even some senior members keep falling into this trap repeatedly. Why cannot they have some sense to ignore these well known 50cent party trolls? I feel more frustrated reading the replies of Indians members to troll posts, than the troll posts themselves. Let the barking dogs bark, you don't have to bark back to make any point.

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## CONNAN

desiman said:


> wow so many deleted post, must be a record lol



world record


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## CONNAN

Not only noobs, but even some senior members keep falling into this trap repeatedly. Why cannot they have some sense to ignore these well known 50cent party trolls? I feel more frustrated reading the replies of Indians members to troll posts, than the troll posts themselves. Let the barking dogs bark, you don't have to bark back to make any point.[/QUOTE]

WELL SAID

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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Any source MANISH.
> 
> As far as i know- Only METEOR replacing AIM120 is in line , that too by 2017.


Meteor is said to be ready by 2013/14 and will be available for MMRCAs, the EF can't get rid of all US weapons, because unless they go for French AASM, they must go for US Paveway, or JDAM as main A2G weapons and specially UK will resist to go for French weapons.


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## Merilion

Mahakaya said:


> Retard - The FoC will be received by 2012 and LCA MK 2 will most likely start by 2012 because it is already being worked upon while we speak.
> 
> India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year
> 
> It is extendable to 12 aircrafts per year. I am sure ADA and HAL will come up with a way to get the 40 by 2012-13 time frame. And the MK2 does not need many modifications. If EJ 200 then none, and now even GE has stated that the GE-414 IN will most likely not need any modifications too.
> 
> So Happy TROLLING RETARD!
> 
> But tell me what happened to the J-10 when it crashed? do you have any idea?
> 
> 
> 
> OR Why has the FC-1 not been inducted into your AF?




post reported.
BTW, this is LCA thread and it has nothing to do with J10 or FC-1. Your trolling need to be stopped.


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## BJlaowai

Mahakaya said:


> Retard - The FoC will be received by 2012 and LCA MK 2 will most likely start by 2012 because it is already being worked upon while we speak.
> 
> &#8216;India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year&#8217;
> 
> It is extendable to 12 aircrafts per year. I am sure ADA and HAL will come up with a way to get the 40 by 2012-13 time frame. And the MK2 does not need many modifications. If EJ 200 then none, and now even GE has stated that the GE-414 IN will most likely not need any modifications too.
> 
> So Happy TROLLING RETARD!
> 
> But tell me what happened to the J-10 when it crashed? do you have any idea?
> 
> 
> 
> OR Why has the FC-1 not been inducted into your AF?



There was no need to be abusive or use foul language. 
Please respond maturely without resorting to personal attacks and flaming the thread. If not, please don't respond at all. There is no need to fall into the trap of a obvious flame bait post, designed to derail this thread. 
People like you are doing more damage to threads like this, than the 50cent party trolls .


----------



## manish123

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Any source MANISH.
> 
> As far as i know- Only METEOR replacing AIM120 is in line , that too by 2017.



News: ePaper | Front Page | National | Tamil Nadu | Andhra Pradesh | Karnataka | Kerala | New Delhi | Other States | International | Opinion | Business | Sport | Miscellaneous | Engagements | 
Advts: Retail Plus | Classifieds | Jobs | Obituary | 

National 

Eurofighter will last 30 to 40 years: German envoy 



K.V. Prasad 







NEW DELHI: Eurofighter, one of the six contenders for the multibillion-dollar tender for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), offers a cutting-edge technology without the End User Monitoring clause, German ambassador Thomas Matussek has said.

It is really a next generation plane and it will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years, he told The Hindu. It also comes without any End User Verification, complete transfer of technology and production. 

End User Monitoring, which created a political controversy earlier this year, is a requirement the United States insists countries to which it supplies sensitive military equipment must agree to. American firms Lockheed Martin (F16) and Boeing (F/A18) are in the fray along with the Russian MiG, Swedish SAAB (Grippen) and French Dassault (Rafale).

Barring the first batch that will be supplied off-the-shelf, all fighters will have to be made in India under transfer of technology. Mr. Matussek said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) would shift its entire technology, which means that in the event of war, the country will not have to worry about supplies from overseas.

As for software code supply, the ambassador said it would be much higher than what some competitors, including U.S. companies, might offer. 

Germany has been nominated by the four-country consortium of EADS, which produces the Eurofighter, as the lead country to pitch for the fighter aircraft in India.

Mr. Matussek, while admitting that the Eurofighter was described as expensive by competitors, said the life cycle maintenance cost would even out the initial high price. 

According to the Defence Procurement Policy, the offset clause makes it mandatory for the manufacturer to source 50 per cent of the value from India.

Strategic partner 


Mr. Matussek said Germany was keen on supplying military equipment, including submarines, for the Navy. _It preferred to have India as a strategic partner and, precisely for that reason, shelved the decision to supply similar equipment to Pakistan, he said._

As for the IAFs mid-air refuel tanker, Mr. Matussek said the deal appeared to have hit a snag, with clearance stuck in the Defence Ministry. Although there is no official confirmation, reports indicate that Airbus A330 is preferred to Boeing. 

_Hang on lots more.Will post as I get time today._


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## BJlaowai

Merilion said:


> why ppl is still counting the number of test flights of LCA if the *mass production already started*? Now it's April 2010 and are you really expecting IAF to receive 20 LCA by the end of 2010? and I read somewhere that the production capacity of LCA is capped at 8 per year? MK2 production start by 2012?



No, Mass production has not started. Limited Serial Production (LSP) has started to manufacture 40 (20 before FOC & 20 after FOC) LCA-Tejas aircrafts to achieve IOC (Initial Operation Clearance) by 2010 and FOC (Final Operation Clerance) by 2012. 
Tejas Mk2 will be mass manufactured (based on IAF requirements) after FOC.


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## KS

BJlaowai said:


> This is a often repeated story. Any post reporting some good news from India gets derailed pretty soon. I would blame the stupid Indian members here who fall into the classic and very obvious trap laid by trolls from Chinese and Pakistani members.
> I don't understand why the Indian members don't have the sense to recognize the flame bait and instead of reporting it, they take it too personally and start making more stupid responses and a really good thread goes down the sewer.
> Not only noobs, but even some senior members keep falling into this trap repeatedly. Why cannot they have some sense to ignore these well known 50cent party trolls? I feel more frustrated reading the replies of Indians members to troll posts, than the troll posts themselves. Let the barking dogs bark, you don't have to bark back to make any point.



wat to do yaar....the Brain says ignore the troll..but the heart says give them back some @ZZ WH00pinG...nd unfortunately majority of the Indians listen to their heart more than their head.


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## Zebronic

Don't reply the troll...more you reply more they post...if you don't reply hardly they post 4 or 5 times and they will go..that will be better solution...

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## Mahakaya

BJlaowai said:


> There was no need to be abusive or use foul language.
> Please respond maturely without resorting to personal attacks and flaming the thread. If not, please don't respond at all. There is no need to fall into the trap of a obvious flame bait post, designed to derail this thread.
> People like you are doing more damage to threads like this, than the 50cent party trolls .



Sorry?

What foul language?

And its guys like you who just keep taking nonsense from people and thats why these guys come into threads and talk nonsense! I agree but then again there needs to be a time when you put your foot down.

How much more do you want to listen from no good people?

Cmon man, if we won't stand up for ourselves no one else will!

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## Mahakaya

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/11/order-for-2nd-tejas-squadron-being.html

The Indian Air Force is taking a crucial step towards accepting the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as a replacement for its ageing MiG-21 fighters. Senior air force officers have told Business Standard that the IAF is ordering a second Tejas squadron (20 aircraft), in addition to the 20 fighters that are already on order.

Mr Ashok Nayak, the Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which will manufacture the Tejas, has confirmed this development. &#8220;The MoD tender for 20 additional Tejas fighters is on track&#8221;, he told Business Standard. &#8220;After it is issued, we will sit down with the MoD, and negotiate a price.&#8221;

The order for a second squadron is a vital expression of IAF confidence in the future of the long-running Tejas programme. So far, the IAF had insisted on evaluating the performance of the first squadron before ordering a second, by around 2015-2016. That would also allow the Tejas to be upgraded to the Tejas Mark II, which would have a new, more powerful, engine. But now, with its fighter fleet dwindling as the old MiG-21s are retired, the IAF is taking the Tejas as it is.

&#8220;The Tejas, even with its current GE-404 engine, is a better fighter than the MiG-21&#8221;, explains a senior IAF officer who is familiar with equipment policy; &#8220;by 2015, the first Tejas squadron will be ready for the IAF. HAL&#8217;s assembly line will be free; while the Tejas Mark II finishes testing, HAL can build a second squadron with the GE-404 engine.&#8221;

So far, the plan was to produce 12 twin-seater Tejas trainers after the first squadron was built. The new order will be for 18 single-seater and 2 twin-seater Tejas: exactly what equips a fighter squadron.

Here&#8217;s why the IAF urgently needs that second squadron: Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons (each squadron has 21 fighters), the IAF is now down to just 32 squadrons. By 2015, another six squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives. Meanwhile, HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. The mathematics is clear: by 2015, the IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters.

Making this shortfall even more worrisome, is the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for north-east India, as a result of an increased threat assessment from China. Senior IAF officers have recently declared that India actually needs 45 squadrons.

In this context that the IAF cannot wait to induct the Tejas as the next light fighter, a role that the MiG-21 has long performed. Medium fighters are as urgently needed, and the IAF is currently evaluating six aircraft for this role. But the new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), even if the contract is placed expeditiously, is unlikely to enter service before 2015-16. Only in the heavy fighter segment is the IAF well placed, with the superlative Sukhoi-30MKI steadily joining the fleet.

*The Tejas is currently undergoing weapons trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by end 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join the IAF by end-2016*.

The IAF has decided that No 45 Squadron, which operated MiG-21M fighters until they were recently retired, will be the first Tejas squadron. It will be based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It is still unclear where the second Tejas squadron will be based.


*Will be great if some of the senior members can throw some light on this? If so then why are we ordering the engines now?* i.e. if the induction or production of Tejas will only start happening in 2013 and we will start getting the engines by 2012? then why wont we just produce the MK2 version?

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## BJlaowai

Mahakaya said:


> Sorry?
> 
> What foul language?


Labeling as 'retard' somebody whom I barely know, is using foul langauge for me. May be its not for you.
There was no need to use that word when replying.



Mahakaya said:


> And its guys like you who just keep taking nonsense from people and thats why these guys come into threads and talk nonsense! I agree but then again there needs to be a time when you put your foot down.
> 
> How much more do you want to listen from no good people?
> 
> Cmon man, if we won't stand up for ourselves no one else will!



Yes. Everytime you reply in anger will only feed the troll and encourage them further. Ignore them or answer them sensibly is the only way to stop them. Instead you brought in offtopic issues, which will only give more fodder for the trolls to derail the thread altogether.
I don't accept your contention that not replying to troll posts is accepting the BS. Ultimately what happens in these threads doesn't make a single paisa of difference in the real world, except increasing your stress levels. Chill bro.

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## BJlaowai

Zebronic said:


> Don't reply the troll...more you reply more they post...if you don't reply hardly they post 4 or 5 times and they will go..that will be better solution...



yep.. right.. just say 'aal eej waell' 4-5 times and move on. 
The trolls will rant a few more times, get bored with themselves and move on. 
every reply in ager for a troll post is feeding the trolls. Sensible reply or simple ignore is a big  for them...


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## BJlaowai

Karthic Sri said:


> wat to do yaar....the Brain says ignore the troll..but the heart says give them back some @ZZ WH00pinG...nd unfortunately majority of the Indians listen to their heart more than their head.


 
Yes. thats true too. We Indian are emotional people. Especially when it comes to issues of national honor. But there are more important things in life than these forums. Better to listen to the brain and keep a level head. Just tap your chest a few times and say 'aal iej wael'.


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## Novice09

Just because of troll... Justin Joseph's thread (where we were suggesting name for LCH) was closed   

I really don't want that this thread will meet the same fate... Please guys be sensible and

*DO NOT REPLY TO TROLLS* 

EVEN IF YOU ARE REPLYING... *DO NOT QUOTE A TROLL*


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## blueoval79

LCA Tejas will be a part of IAF next year....says IAF chief.....V P Naik..... News flash.

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## pop_alsa

Its a shame actually that IAF took so long to order even two squadrons as if they are still in doubt of LCA project's future. LCA is now at such stage where IAF can safely order 6 squadrons. This investment will improve production speed as well as give a big boost to confidence of LCA team. Also this will convince DRDO to invest more into LCA programme, otherwise LCA will die just like Arjun, a success but tiny orders.

This lethargy of IAF to push or support Indian R&D is very visible. A large part of Indian defense budget is unutilized and has been returned to Finance ministry. Its a shame that they couldn't invest some of it in futuristic R&D related to LCA-MKI or MKII.

US airforce is famous for its heavy funding across universities for future weapon systems and studies.

What Indian Airforce is famous for? For paying 50 visits each year, to foreign weapons companies and funding studies to discuss "imported" toys.

IAF will never improve its vision and will always remain dependent on imported toys.

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## Bombay

More pics of the chopper






















Congrats to the team of HAL for the achievement!!

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## Chanakyaa

Wow Great Pics Bombay !!


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## DMLA

pop_alsa said:


> Its a shame actually that IAF took so long to order even two squadrons as if they are still in doubt of LCA project's future. LCA is now at such stage where IAF can safely order 6 squadrons. This investment will improve production speed as well as give a big boost to confidence of LCA team. Also this will convince DRDO to invest more into LCA programme, otherwise LCA will die just like Arjun, a success but tiny orders.
> 
> This lethargy of IAF to push or support Indian R&D is very visible. A large part of Indian defense budget is unutilized and has been returned to Finance ministry. Its a shame that they couldn't invest some of it in futuristic R&D related to LCA-MKI or MKII.
> 
> US airforce is famous for its heavy funding across universities for future weapon systems and studies.
> 
> What Indian Airforce is famous for? For paying 50 visits each year, to foreign weapons companies and funding studies to discuss "imported" toys.
> 
> IAF will never improve its vision and will always remain dependent on imported toys.



I would plead you to not judge any party without knowing the ground realities. Without such kowledge, our assumptions often lead us onto harbouring wrong notions. Who or what all is at fault is a complex question with no "right answers" from us common folk. We can never understand the workings of the armed forces from the narrow lenses we afford being outsiders. Blaming the entire air force is taking it a bit too far.

just my humble opinion!


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## Mauryan

^^^,

enough is enough.saying words,calling names wont bring any good.

If people blame LCA for the delay ,at the same time, they should have to blame the babus for the root cause in not promoting the proper R & D investment.Even till today we gotta have to pack our aero engines to russia for high altitude testing.

People might say that DRDO was an established R &D organisation, but its not fully developed. There were so many things that delay a program and that too leap froging to a 4.5 gen fighter like LCA is no ordinary goal.
I bet if you can ask your kid who just born to run? But the indian military did while considering the final time frames. Both the IAf and DRDO does know that LCA is going to be a learn and build program while weaponising the forces once the objective is achieved. If people swear on looking at the 3rd world meadia reportings, then I should say that, they are no brainers.

DRDO kept its promises by developing a high end sophisticated 4.5 gen fighter.And its not over yet. The real game will start with the first tranche aka LCA-MKII.

Being frank, no one ever expected what would be the final MKII config would be? But I promise it is going to be way over the fan boy expectations. 

I fear that I might have to spill some beans here and there.LCA-MKII with new engine and new radars( mind the numbering) and new EW suite will be no way less than the top notch 4.5+ gen fighters flying today.
It will be pissing the enemy with its utter low RCS that no other below 5th gen fighter posses.Do I mind saying that MKII is utilising the technologies developed in house for AMCA?Yes I do.

LCA-N will feature so many wonderful avionic and surface tracking and targetting systems which for the first time ever been developed in the country that are even comparable or exceed the capabilities of similar systems from the west.

AWACS and Samyuktha programs offered so many spin-offs that can be integrated on the current and future aircrafts including the long range IRST developed from a civilian program.

All in all,even if DRDO promise that LCA-MKII can be inducted by 2015, take it with positive spirit-because it will still be comparable to the aircraft we will be inducting then aka MRCA.

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## Chaluboy

Mauryan said:


> ^^^,
> 
> enough is enough.saying words,calling names wont bring any good.
> 
> If people blame LCA for the delay ,at the same time, they should have to blame the babus for the root cause in not promoting the proper R & D investment.Even till today we gotta have to pack our aero engines to russia for high altitude testing.
> 
> People might say that DRDO was an established R &D organisation, but its not fully developed. There were so many things that delay a program and that too leap froging to a 4.5 gen fighter like LCA is no ordinary goal.
> I bet if you can ask your kid who just born to run? But the indian military did while considering the final time frames. Both the IAf and DRDO does know that LCA is going to be a learn and build program while weaponising the forces once the objective is achieved. If people swear on looking at the 3rd world meadia reportings, then I should say that, they are no brainers.
> 
> DRDO kept its promises by developing a high end sophisticated 4.5 gen fighter.And its not over yet. The real game will start with the first tranche aka LCA-MKII.
> 
> Being frank, no one ever expected what would be the final MKII config would be? But I promise it is going to be way over the fan boy expectations.
> 
> I fear that I might have to spill some beans here and there.LCA-MKII with new engine and new radars( mind the numbering) and new EW suite will be no way less than the top notch 4.5+ gen fighters flying today.
> It will be pissing the enemy with its utter low RCS that no other below 5th gen fighter posses.Do I mind saying that MKII is utilising the technologies developed in house for AMCA?Yes I do.
> 
> LCA-N will feature so many wonderful avionic and surface tracking and targetting systems which for the first time ever been developed in the country that are even comparable or exceed the capabilities of similar systems from the west.
> 
> AWACS and Samyuktha programs offered so many spin-offs that can be integrated on the current and future aircrafts including the long range IRST developed from a civilian program.
> 
> All in all,even if DRDO promise that LCA-MKII can be inducted by 2015, take it with positive spirit-because it will still be comparable to the aircraft we will be inducting then aka MRCA.



Hope what you say is true mate... Cynicism will get us nowhere.

Jai Hind

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## nomi007

with which country is helping them


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## CONNAN

we had already tested this isz very old news


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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------


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## CONNAN

mods plz merge this thread here


http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52331-lch-makes-first-flight.html


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## gowthamraj

nomi007 said:


> with which country is helping them



somalia , sudan and maldives

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## CONNAN

gowthamraj said:


> somalia , sudan and maldives



nope afghanisthan,

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## gogbot

intellect said:


> Thanks A lot Mauryan for your post. Lets hope that Kaveri too gets developed
> "completely " with its recent success in high altitude trials in Russia
> and consultancy offered by SNecma
> 
> The annoncement for new engine for Mk 2 must come soon .EJ 200 or GE414.



The flight test of the engine is scheduled in the latter half of May.

It will be tested on the IL-76 .

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## sancho

pop_alsa said:


> Its a shame actually that IAF took so long to order even two squadrons as if they are still in doubt of LCA project's future. LCA is now at such stage where IAF can safely order 6 squadrons. This investment will improve production speed as well as give a big boost to confidence of LCA team. Also this will convince DRDO to invest more into LCA programme, otherwise LCA will die just like Arjun, a success but tiny orders.
> 
> This lethargy of IAF to push or support Indian R&D is very visible. A large part of Indian defense budget is unutilized and has been returned to Finance ministry. Its a shame that they couldn't invest some of it in futuristic R&D related to LCA-MKI or MKII.
> 
> US airforce is famous for its heavy funding across universities for future weapon systems and studies.
> 
> What Indian Airforce is famous for? For paying 50 visits each year, to foreign weapons companies and funding studies to discuss "imported" toys.
> 
> IAF will never improve its vision and will always remain dependent on imported toys.



I agree with you on IA and Arjun and to some extend on IAF and LCA MK1, but not in generall, because IAF and even more the IN does a lot for indigenous developments!

*Aircrafts actually in service:*

HAL HPT-32 Deepak
HAL HJT-16 Kiran
HAL Dhruv
DRDO Nishant
Lakshya PTA


*Aircrafts under development:*

HAL Tejas
HAL HTT-40
HAL LCH
HAL HJT-36
NAL Saras
HAL Light Observation Helicopter 
DRDO Rustom
DRDO Pawan
DRDO Gagan

*Co-developments:*

FGFA
MRTA
DRDO AEW&CS

Besides that IAF is also pushing several weapon developments like Akash SAM, Astra missile, Laser guided bombs, air launched NAG...

The problem here imo is not IAF, but that we only have DRDO and HAL to develop all these things at the same time. That of course means more delays, less concentration of one development and not to forget our lack of experience in several fields!

We are still years behind China, Russia, Korea, Japan, or western countries and need their help in various fields(not Chinas of course  )! That's the reality that can't be denied and that's why we also have to import arms and techs of course, but with more indigenous developments and co-developments we will improve and get more know how for the future too. So we are on a good way, not everything is as bad as it seems!

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## sancho

Mauryan said:


> ^^^,I fear that I might have to spill some beans here and there.LCA-MKII with new engine and new radars( mind the numbering) and new EW suite will be no way less than the top notch 4.5+ gen fighters flying today.
> It will be pissing the enemy with its utter low RCS that no other below 5th gen fighter posses.Do I mind saying that MKII is utilising the technologies developed in house for AMCA?Yes I do.
> 
> LCA-N will feature so many wonderful avionic and surface tracking and targetting systems which for the first time ever been developed in the country that are even comparable or exceed the capabilities of similar systems from the west.
> 
> AWACS and Samyuktha programs offered so many spin-offs that can be integrated on the current and future aircrafts including the long range IRST developed from a civilian program.
> 
> All in all,even if DRDO promise that LCA-MKII can be inducted by 2015, take it with positive spirit-because it will still be comparable to the aircraft we will be inducting then aka MRCA.



Positive spirit is a good thing, but keep the reality in mind too!

LCA MK1 will only be a 4. gen fighter, which is not even in service yet, so let us wait for it to be ready and fully capable before we hype LCA MK 2.
I also have much hopes for MK2 but at the moment, we can't tell how capable it could be.
It could have SC, or TVC with western engines, it could have latest Israeli AESA radar and Python V missiles, it could have latest IRST, EWS..., which could make it comparabel to latest 4.5 gen fighters, but nothing is decided yet! 

Engine and its capabilities under evaluation.
AESA radar not good enough, so the search for a partner to co-develope one has started. 
Only older Russian weapons are cleared for LCA so far.
IRST?

The future of LCA MK2 is indeed still not clear and that's also why further orders will take time. For more LCA MK 1 it is too late anyway, because IAF clearly moves on with 4.5,or even better gen as the main base (higher number of LCA MK2 with AESA, upgrade of MKI with AESA, MMRCA), to put 5. gen fighters later on top.

Btw, fact that we need foreign help on any main part of LCA MK2 and N-LCA, says enough about developing MCA in house alone. Not realistic at the moment and just distracts from the work we still have to do on LCA. Without developing LCA till the end, there is no hope for MCA anyway!

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## Cityboy

connanxlrc1000 said:


> nope afghanisthan,



with some help of papua new gini. .they made a brush for dust cleaning of Lch pilot seats.

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## pogularocky

liteon said:


> Overall specs & shape are identical to Kazan Ansat-2RC.


Dude, not even close to the Ansat model. C'mon now!


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## pogularocky

gowthamraj said:


> is it have par with t-129 which Pakistan is going to by from American firm (specially made for turkey)


T-129 and LCH are similar in most aspects. But, LCH is brand new while T-129 is old. So, expect some unique features in LCH that gives it an edge over the T-129s.


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## Zebronic

nomi007 said:


> with which country is helping them



not pakistan....unfortunately pakistan has nothing to help..


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## jha

just saw it flying near HAL....really looks beautiful....

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## flaming arrow

jha said:


> just saw it flying near HAL....really looks beautiful....



jha ji sometimes having an office near HAL is the best thing

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## vimki

I saw this lady almost every day last week. It is just beautiful


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## Mauryan

sancho said:


> Btw, fact that we need foreign help on any main part of LCA MK2 and N-LCA, says enough about developing MCA in house alone. Not realistic at the moment and just distracts from the work we still have to do on LCA. Without developing LCA till the end, there is no hope for MCA anyway!



Help was sought only for speeding up the program to compensate the last time.So are the co-developments and JV`s.

Everyone says, LCA got foreign help foreign help but no one take pain in elaborating at what level the help was aquired, and which areas, how much?

Media thinks, it call seel few more by adding foreign countries.
One can understand after looking at the folks at DMRL and ADA working over nights to meet the deadlines.during the initial stage of LCA ,we have both tehcnology and manpower shortage.But today its not the case to go with.Projects being detailed and spread across mutiple diciplines ,one will be astonished after looking at the new work structure at the labs.No wonder MCA designs were frozen even before LCA MK-II flies.

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## jha

getting some assistance from MIG in MCA project would not be so wrong by the way..

today saw a dhruv near hal...
will keep updating for next one month till i am here..


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## karan.1970

jha said:


> getting some assistance from MIG in MCA project would not be so wrong by the way..
> 
> today saw a dhruv near hal...
> will keep updating for next one month till i am here..



Sir.. You need to start carrying a fancy cell phone with a 9 Mega pixel camera and a video recorder please.....

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## sancho

Mauryan said:


> Help was sought only for speeding up the program to compensate the last time.So are the co-developments and JV`s.
> 
> Everyone says, LCA got foreign help foreign help but no one take pain in elaborating at what level the help was aquired, and which areas, how much?



But why was help needed? 

Multi mode/AESA radar development needs foreign help to be good enough.
Kaveri engine not mature enough to be used in MK1 and 2 and needs help for further development.
Know how of making a fighter carrier capable is not available, so we need foreign help.

We knew that we don't have the experience in all these fields, so couldn't we get Russian, or French help from the start in re-designing LCA to a carrier version?
Couldn't we simply use Russian, or Israeli radars off the shelf, or with a radar co-development from the start?
Couldn't we go for an engine co-development with France from the start too (Shakti engine was co-developed with Turbomecca too)?

Engine and radar are important parts of such fighters and without enough experience in both fields, things must go the way that they went and that's why we face these delays.

Take similar projects for comparison!

Swedish companies are experienced when it comes to fighters, engine, or avionics developments, but even they used a proven GE 404 engine as the base, for the RM 12 engine, that powers the Jas 39 Gripen. They also only co-developed the PS-05 pulse-doppler radar with a British company and even the design for the Gripen was from BAE. 
So if they, with all their experience went this way, why did we thought we can do it all alone?
Look where their project and where ours is now? 



> The development of the Gripen began in 1982 with approval from Swedish Parliament.





> The first prototype first flew on 9 December 1988.





> Introduction 9 June 1996




Going for an indigenous fighter was the right way, but we should have used the knowledge and experience of friendly countries more and LCA would be flying for several years now. A similar approach to MCA will just end in the same way too.

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## Creder

Mahakaya said:


> Broadsword: IAF placing order for 2nd Tejas squadron: Dwindling MiG-21 numbers, growing China threat, speeds up Tejas induction
> 
> 
> *The Tejas is currently undergoing weapons trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by end 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join the IAF by end-2016*.




and this guy says 



blueoval79 said:


> LCA Tejas will be a part of IAF next year....says IAF chief.....V P Naik..... News flash.



so when is it ?


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Take similar projects for comparison!
> 
> Swedish companies are experienced when it comes to fighters, engine, or avionics developments, but even they used a proven GE 404 engine as the base, for the RM 12 engine, that powers the Jas 39 Gripen. They also only co-developed the PS-05 pulse-doppler radar with a British company and even the design for the Gripen was from BAE.
> So if they, with all their experience went this way, why did we thought we can do it all alone?
> Look where their project and where ours is now?



Then you should ask Swedish why they did that way. Were they short of confidence?

Also, India is not Sweden. Stop dreaming.

BAE offered help to Sweden because both are white blood brothers. Why you think British would have helped India making LCA? Is this some water-damn project or a joke, you think?

If there was such help on table, India would have taken it. If you have proof saying otherwise, then prove it.

*Stop making stupid theories to make fun of those people involved in gigantic efforts behind LCA.* All you are doing here is, making people laugh on you.

*By the way, I tell you why Swedish went with JV with BAE despite having experience - Sweden was never under sanctions. So, they had luxury to ask BAE to help them make Gripen. They preferred not to make Gripen on their own because that was not their motive. It was business venture for them. India's necessity and reasons for LCA were different. You missed this totally.* India didn't have that luxury(asking BAE help) due to western sanctions. And that proved to be beneficial for Indians because LCA has given India more than it could have learnt in any JV. JV would had divided integration work. But sanctions ensured India had to do every system in LCA herself. Bingo!



sancho said:


> Going for an indigenous fighter was the right way, but we should have used the knowledge and experience of friendly countries more and LCA would be flying for several years now. A similar approach to MCA will just end in the same way too.



Nope. I disagree.

Actually India has learnt more from LCA since its designed locally. While Swedish Gripen was designed by BAE. So, it will take India lesser efforts to make MCA now because Indians have fully explored aircraft design process from scratch and local designing expertise is now available. For example, how much it took to make first Dhruv prototype? More than 5 years. How much it took to make first LCH prototype? *1.5 years.*

*By the way, India is still under sanctions compared to Swedish who has full access to Western R&D. So, stop telling me your stupid theories of why India did this way, or why we didn't did it like Swedish did. and blah blah.*

First, do some proper research behind origin of LCA and the political situation India *is* in, then make up your nonsense theories.

India doesn't have a big daddy to feed her like Swedish got in white parent British. Think before you complain.

It seems I have to put it bluntly into your head what this is all about - All goras were grouped together since 1970's(creation of NSG - Indian nuclear tests), for keeping India out of any technological access. All gora countries imposed technological sanctions on India after 1973 tests.

It wasn't USA only who put sanctions on India but it was collective decision of all powerful countries and their chota-mota white-blood munnas(Sweden etc.). Just see the list of NSG formed in 1973 to find who were behind blacklisting India.

LCA program was a middle finger to these morons that we can do it even without you. It was one of against odds. So, I am not surprised that its delayed but happy that it has seen the light finally even though there were funding hiccups in between due to dumb babus.

*The world doesn't work so simple and open manner like you think or like what those idiots like Thomas L. Friedman(fantasy writer) writes*. There are racial angles to everything and that's reality.

Your skin color decides if BAE will help you or not. That's how it works when it comes to such strategic tie-ups like LCA or MCA. *India is not Sweden. Sweden is a true white-blood country which has open access to latest Western R&D. Same with Israel. Israel would be a big Zero without access to western R&D. India doesn't have that luxury.* So, before you open your mouth to compare DRDO with others research labs in white-blood countries and complain, use your brains first. Because you are not making sense.

Also, if you think Bush removed technological sanctions, then you are wrong. Nothing has changed since nuclear deal. DRDO and ISRO are still blacklisted.

For example, any American entity(Boeing or NASA) can invest or take part in any University campus or fund IIT project in India and claim the patent for that work. *But DRDO/ISRO can't do that in any american university. They are banned. But Swedish are allowed to do that, so they benefit directly from Western R&D. Do you know this?*

So, use your head before you blame DRDO scientists. Because at end of day, they are really fools for doing such high-end work on shitty salaries, so that fools like you can rant here and take pride and saying two thanks to Gripen for being a role-model for DRDO? Give me a break!

Bush gave India nuclear deal not because he loves Indians but because his american companies need Indian consumer markets badly. But he refused to remove DRDO/ISRO from blacklists. That's how real world works, on racial tones.

Delays = we are learning/finding new solutions = Good.
No Delays = something is wrong(backhand import deal?) = Bad.

MCA process will save lot of time due to experience from LCA process.

*By the way, while you were comparing LCA and Gripen programmes, why you did not compare the budgets of two programmes? For your information, LCA is most under-funded and under-paid(to those fool researchers in DRDO who didn't took more-heavily paying easy-call-center jobs) 4th generation aircraft programme on earth.*

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## Abi

Is it really going to have the EL/M-2052 AESA radar, if so the LCA would be one lethal plane.


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## sancho

Your post is simply not worth to comment on it, *especially the racist parts!*

The funny thing is only, you pointed out a good example that proves exactly what I said.


shaktiman2010 said:


> For example, how much it took to make first Dhruv prototype? More than 5 years. How much it took to make first LCH prototype? *1.5 years.*



Dhruv was designed and mainly involved parts from foreign countries and as I said before we went for an engine co-development exactly for the same reasons that I mentioned before. No experience and know how to do it alone!
Dhruv development went so good, because it was based on their help, but we learnt from those countries and improved ourselfs during that development and now can do not only redesign of Dhruv to LCH, but also the complete development of LOH, including the engines by HAL alone now. 
And that should have been the right way for LCA too! First try to do it with help of others and learn from them, then you can do it next time on your own! 

Btw, design of LCA was finalised in 1990, sanctions was posed on us in 1998, so it has nothing to do with each other! Just to make clear who needs to do some more research!

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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> *Your post is simply not worth to comment on* it, especially the racist parts!



Or you can put it directly - you don't have any silly arguments or ranting left against LCA program.

Regarding sanctions, you are wrong. There were sanctions before 1998 too. Do some research buddy and read ex-Cabinet secretary Raman's interview on details about sanctions before 1998. Hint for you - 1973.

The way you are blabbering here about LCA and blah blah, its clear you know nothing about history of London Group and its genesis.

By the way, if you still think its so simple to get access to american technology then try it. You will be arrested by US marshals, the moment someone discovers you belong to ISRO or DRDO. While your favorite fair and tall God Swedish have full access to western R&D. So, DRDO's challenges are different since they don't have this luxury like Swedish do. Keep that in your mind.

*Any idiot can make Gripen, when he has daddies like Britain and USA to help him. No big deal.*

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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Dhruv was designed and mainly involved parts from foreign countries and as I said before we went for an engine co-development exactly for the same reasons that I mentioned before. No experience and know how to do it alone!
> Dhruv development went so good, because it was based on their help, but we learnt from those countries and improved ourselfs during that development and now can do not only redesign of Dhruv to LCH, but also the complete development of LOH, including the engines by HAL alone now.



Wrong.

*Dhruv was a civilian helicopter project.* It wasn't a military combat version. *That's why HAL managed to get "some" foreign help.* LCH came much later. You don't understand yet how policy-making works in HAL.

*LCA is a 4th generation "military" aircraft project.* Fourth Generation aircraft technologies are not sold openly in market like meat & fishes, as you think.

Also, India is not Sweden which has open access to western and European R&D. So, stop giving me your silly rants like Gripen is this, Gripen is that, why we don't do Gripen. Stop complaining like a kid.

DRDO has done an excellent job, with what little they had and they have my full respect. I am not sure about you.


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## zeus

Dhruv was not a civilian project to start with, more Dhruv are sold to armed forces then the civilian version

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------

Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan



Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA &#8212; a squadron of 20 aircraft &#8212; is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later &#8212; both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA&#8217;s first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan idrw.org

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## KEETARP

*Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan*

Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan idrw.org

: Tribuneindia

India&#8217;s self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAF&#8217;s brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources.

Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA &#8212; a squadron of 20 aircraft &#8212; is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later &#8212; both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA&#8217;s first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last month that the first lot of the LCA would be delivered in March 2011. The Air Force is likely to accord &#8216;initial operational clearance&#8217; by the end of this year.

Phalodi is the sixth IAF base in Rajasthan. It is located almost equidistant from the three existing IAF bases at Jaisalmer, Jodhpur and Nal (Bikaner). The IAF has two others bases in Rajasthan &#8212; Suratgarh and Uttarlai (Barmer). Across the border opposite Phalodi are two major Pakistani military bases in Bahawalpur and Rahimyar Khan.

In the past two decades, the IAF had not commissioned or operationalised a new base as it had focused on improving infrastructure in the existing bases across the country &#8212; some 70 in number. In the past two years, the IAF has reopened defunct advanced landing grounds at Nyoma, Fukche and Daulet Beg Oldie &#8212; all in Ladakh. The forces have a requirement for more than 200 LCA-type aircraft to replace the ageing lot of MiG 21 series of fighters. An additional $ 538.2 million (about Rs 2,500 crore) has been approved by the government for the LCA Phase-II programme. For this, the engines are to be selected soon.

Seems faith of Air-force in Tejas has grown , placing Tejas near Border ??????
I dont know its Faith in performance or publicity stunt or shortage of fighters for new airbase
Any ways lets trust IAF will certainly do justice to LCA's capability.

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## Lankan Ranger

*Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan*

Ajay Banerjee/TNS New Delhi, April 10 Indias self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAFs brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. 

Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources. Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. 

The first lot of the LCA -- a squadron of 20 aircraft -- is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later -- both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. 

Once handed over to the IAF, the LCAs first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan

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## NSG Commando

But the first squadron of LCA tejas was supposed to be in Tamil nadu....


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## karan.1970

Huh! 11 months from now..?? What happened to 2015?


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## Kinetic

Excellent, a new forward air base for a new generation fighter. It will be first line of defence against enemy advanced fighters.


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## NSG Commando

Kinetic said:


> Excellent, a new forward air base for a new generation fighter. It will be first line of defence against enemy advanced fighters.



yes it would be buddy, front line of defense


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## sudhir007

NSG Commando said:


> But the first squadron of LCA tejas was supposed to be in Tamil nadu....


it should be temperately base when IAF poilet get master it will come at rajasthan


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## NSG Commando

sudhir007 said:


> it should be temperately base when IAF poilet get master it will come at rajasthan



Well, Yeah, thats true, first its needed to be mastered and then get it onto front line , till then Stay back let the Sukhoi' s do the job in case an emergency situation arises.


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## Creder

wait weren't they inductin in it 2013 or something


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## Mahakaya

Creder said:


> wait weren't they inductin in it 2013 or something



That is what a lot of Pakistani's feel. I believe all have just seen the video on Youtube about Tejas's induction and they believe it to be true.

Like I said in my earlier posts the 1st squadron will be in by 2011 then by 2012 the next and the following years will see MK2 with better engine being inducted.


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## Creder

Mahakaya said:


> *That is what a lot of Pakistani's feel.* I believe all have just seen the video on Youtube about Tejas's induction and they believe it to be true.
> 
> Like I said in my earlier posts the 1st squadron will be in by 2011 then by 2012 the next and the following years will see MK2 with better engine being inducted.



I asked a simple question and i didnt ask out of malice.

Here's a post by an 'indian' member, which is the reason why i asked this. 



Mahakaya said:


> Broadsword: IAF placing order for 2nd Tejas squadron: Dwindling MiG-21 numbers, growing China threat, speeds up Tejas induction
> 
> 
> *The Tejas is currently undergoing weapons trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by end 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join the IAF by end-2016*.



Hope that doesnt make you feel like too big of an a$$


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## Indian Su30 MKI

At last good news for us


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## Indian Su30 MKI

deleted because old news


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## Mr. cool

Creder said:


> I asked a simple question and i didnt ask out of malice.
> 
> Here's a post by an 'indian' member, which is the reason why i asked this.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that doesnt make you feel like too big of an a$$



Sir Creder,

You are senior Member, Please behave like it

Any ya i have same confusion, When will be first squadron of Tejas will come in service


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## flaming arrow

NSG Commando said:


> But the first squadron of LCA tejas was supposed to be in Tamil nadu....



The fist squadron will be stationed IN TAMIL NADU but for a brief period after that if gets stationed at the new air base in rajasthan,now this a very good sign..many pakisatni members includin some moderators were doubting about its IOC which they were saying will noy be achieved before 2013..but thsi news will surely claer thier doubts till some extent
More interesting to see is the fact that IAF now plans to put it on the forward base..i would say its a bold step a new desi machine with the whole world apprehensive about its capability i personally i feel its a good symbol...

Also note TEJAS LSP-3's flight info is no where to be seen i think HAL without much fanfare has started testing the RADAR(just my 2 cents)..can somebody tell me is are we gonna use the indigenous RADAR or the ISREALI RADAR EL-2035????....smone had posted a link pertaining to the purchasing of this radar..........


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## Indian Su30 MKI

flaming arrow said:


> The fist squadron will be stationed IN TAMIL NADU but for a brief period after that if gets stationed at the new air base in rajasthan,now this a very good sign..many pakisatni members includin some moderators were doubting about its IOC which they were saying will noy be achieved before 2013..but thsi news will surely claer thier doubts till some extent
> More interesting to see is the fact that IAF now plans to put it on the forward base..i would say its a bold step a new desi machine with the whole world apprehensive about its capability i personally i feel its a good symbol...
> 
> Also note TEJAS LSP-3's flight info is no where to be seen i think HAL without much fanfare has started testing the RADAR(just my 2 cents)..can somebody tell me is are we gonna use the indigenous RADAR or the ISREALI RADAR EL-2035????....smone had posted a link pertaining to the purchasing of this radar..........



Yes brother you are right.
We have to show our New Bird




to all the Pakistani brothers


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## flaming arrow

INPUTS: 

LIGHT COMBAT HELICOPTER FLYING NEAR THE HAL PARAMETER


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## Mahakaya

Creder said:


> I asked a simple question and i didnt ask out of malice.
> 
> Here's a post by an 'indian' member, which is the reason why i asked this.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that doesnt make you feel like too big of an a$$



Well I did not reply out of malice!

It is a fact that many Pakistani members do think on those lines. I thought you do too which is why I wrote to clarify!

Besides that article itself is posted by me and no it does not make me feel like an *** as please figure out the reason why I asked the question that follows it. It makes no sense to finalize an engine right away if the second Tejas MK1 Squadron will only come in by 2014.

So please don't take things out of context and understand the broader point I was trying to make.


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## jha

flaming arrow said:


> INPUTS:
> 
> LIGHT COMBAT HELICOPTER FLYING NEAR THE HAL PARAMETER



hell i am in Office now...get some pics dude..


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## NSG Commando

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/lca.jpg​
Indias self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAFs brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources. Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. *The first lot of the LCA  a squadron of 20 aircraft  is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later  both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore*. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCAs first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

*Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last month that the first lot of the LCA would be delivered in March 2011. The Air Force is likely to accord initial operational clearance by the end of this year. Phalodi is the sixth IAF base in Rajasthan*. It is located almost equidistant from the three existing IAF bases at Jaisalmer, Jodhpur and Nal (Bikaner). The IAF has two others bases in Rajasthan  Suratgarh and Uttarlai (Barmer). Across the border opposite Phalodi are two major Pakistani military bases in Bahawalpur and Rahimyar Khan.
In the past two decades, the IAF had not commissioned or operationalised a new base as it had focused on improving infrastructure in the existing bases across the country  some 70 in number. In the past two years, the IAF has reopened defunct advanced landing grounds at Nyoma, Fukche and Daulet Beg Oldie  all in Ladakh. The forces have a requirement for more than 200 LCA-type aircraft to replace the ageing lot of MiG 21 series of fighters. An additional $ 538.2 million (about Rs 2,500 crore) has been approved by the government for the LCA Phase-II programme. For this, the engines are to be selected soon.

Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan


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## sudhir007

DRDO, IAF rapped for time, cost overruns in LCA project - India - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: A Parliamentary panel on Thursday slammed the DRDO and the IAF for the 27-year delay and the cost overruns in their Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, describing it as "a very sorry state of affairs".

It also asked the defence ministry to commission the indigenous fighter jet Tejas expeditiously after obtaining its operational clearance within the stipulated time-frame and without cost escalation by taking all desired steps.

"The committee concludes that this is a very sorry state of affairs. Even when 27 years have passed since LCA was sanctioned, it has still to see the light of the day," the parliamentary committee on defence said in its latest report tabled in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha.

"All desired steps should be taken so that Tejas is operational by the stipulated timeframe and there is no further cost escalation," the report said.

The LCA, sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore, is slated to be ready for initial operational clearance only by December this year.

The first phase of the project was completed in April 2004 at a cost of Rs 2,188 crore.

The sanctioned cost of the second phase was Rs 3,301.87 crore and the originally scheduled date of completion was December 31, 2008.

The defence ministry informed the panel that in November 2009 further sanction was accorded for continuing full scale engineering development of LCA, touted to be a fourth generation fighter jet, till December 2018 with an additional cost of Rs 5,302.98 crore.

The committee noted that the engine of Tejas was running into serious problem and the option of either importing an engine or persisting with the indigenously developed Kaveri engine was finally decided upon by favouring a foreign engine for which tenders had been issued.

"The committee emphasises that the various problems being faced with Tejas engine should be sorted out expeditiously," the report said.


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## pandamonkey

This is a new article i found today about the LCA on timesofindia.

NEW DELHI: The overall developmental cost of Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has quietly zoomed past the Rs 13,000-crore mark, with the government sanctioning the extension of the fighter's "full-scale engineering development'' (FSED) till December 31, 2018. This, in effect, means the Tejas developmental saga will now stretch across 35 years, sanctioned as the project was way back in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s. Tejas, in fact, can now give the Arjun main-battle tank a run for its money in terms of years taken for full development. The tank project, after all, was first approved 36 years ago. It is, of course, critical for India to boost indigenous defence production, importing as it still does 70&#37; of its military hardware and software, but this probably is not the way. "This is a very sorry state of affairs. Even after 27 years since LCA was sanctioned, it is yet to see light of the day,'' says the latest report of the parliamentary standing committee on defence, tabled in Parliament on Thursday. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Aeronautical Development Agency and DRDO argue developing a supersonic fly-by-wire fourth-generation fighter from scratch, with international sanctions in place for several years, is an incredibly complex and tough task. The project, after all, includes single-seater IAF, twin-seater trainer and naval LCA variants. With Tejas prototypes clocking 1,350 flights till now, the "final operational clearance'' for the IAF variant is now slated for December 2012. 
"So, IAF should have its first Tejas squadron of 20 fighters by 2014-15. Even Swedish Gripen fighter's developmental cost was around Rs 12,640 crore,'' said an official. India, however, is now going in for foreign engines to power even the Tejas Mark-II version after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore. Consequently, while the first 20 Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the hunt is on for new more powerful engines for the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each). The Rs 13,000-crore mark for the LCA project is breached even if the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside. For one, the FSED Phase-I, which finished in March 2004, cost Rs 2,188 crore. The Phase-II, which was to be completed by December 2008 at a cost of Rs 3,301 crore, will now get over in December 2012, with additional funds of Rs 2,475 crore. Moreover, in November last year, the government "accorded'' sanction for "continuing FSED of LCA till December 2018, with an estimated additional cost of Rs 5,302 crore''. Amid all this, IAF is keeping its fingers crossed, grappling as it is with a free-fall in the number of its fighter squadrons, down to just 32 from a sanctioned strength of 39.5. 

Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - India - The Times of India


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## pandamonkey

I find it very interesting that LCA's development cost will soon exceed the Swedish Griphen. Will the LCA be as good as the griphen even though it development cost will be more than the Griphen??????

"Even Swedish Gripen fighter's developmental cost was around Rs 12,640 crore,'' said an official." 
"The Rs 13,000-crore mark for the LCA project is breached even if the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside."


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## vimki

> I find it very interesting that LCA's development cost will soon exceed the Swedish Griphen. Will the LCA be as good as the griphen even though it development cost will be more than the Griphen??????
> 
> "Even Swedish Gripen fighter's developmental cost was around Rs 12,640 crore,'' said an official."
> "The Rs 13,000-crore mark for the LCA project is breached even if the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside."



Gripen is not the first aircraft manufactured by Sweden, they had a very good experience in the aviation industry. So there is nothing surprising that HAL is spending more money&time on LCA for development than Saab on Gripen. Also Saab got a great support from the West & US on various equipments & technology used in Gripen. I am not saying all the parts in LCA are home grown but we started to receive the support only from 2000s.

Also for your info, Even Gripen doesn't use their own engine.

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## pandamonkey

I thought the LCA was gona have a homegrown engine, but according to the article they are gona use a america engine then some other one for later models


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## Arjun MBT

pandamonkey said:


> I thought the LCA was gona have a homegrown engine, but according to the article they are gona use a america engine then some other one for later models



Kaveri engine is going to have test flight next month, Others are just substitutes for kaveri engine


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## pandamonkey

don't mean to be rude but did you read the article i posted???????????? 
"Kaveri engine is going to have test flight next month"

From the article, "India, however, is now going in for foreign engines to power even the Tejas Mark-II version after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore. Consequently, while the first 20 Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the hunt is on for new more powerful engines for the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each)." 
again to highlight my point, from the article "indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore."


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## Arjun MBT

pandamonkey said:


> don't mean to be rude but did you read the article i posted????????????
> "Kaveri engine is going to have test flight next month"
> 
> From the article, "India, however, is now going in for foreign engines to power even the Tejas Mark-II version after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore. Consequently, while the first 20 Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the hunt is on for new more powerful engines for the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each)."
> again to highlight my point, from the article "indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore."



R&D takes time buddy, its not easy, India is doing it for the first time, you cant expect us to make an engine which gives 70kn of thrust and 100kn thrust after full after burners the very first time we develop, We have to first develop the technology, Its not as easy as you think buddy.... kaveri Engine would Be powering our aircrafts soon, its already undergoing altitude tests...


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## pandamonkey

Again don't mean to be rude but did you read my last commet???????????????????????
I read the article on april 16. i think thats today. It says the kaveri engine faileddddddddd. Here is another article. Its from a day earlier but talks about the same report.
NEW DELHI: A Parliamentary panel on Thursday slammed the DRDO and the IAF for the 27-year delay and the cost overruns in their Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, describing it as "a very sorry state of affairs". 

It also asked the defence ministry to commission the indigenous fighter jet Tejas expeditiously after obtaining its operational clearance within the stipulated time-frame and without cost escalation by taking all desired steps. 

"The committee concludes that this is a very sorry state of affairs. Even when 27 years have passed since LCA was sanctioned, it has still to see the light of the day," the parliamentary committee on defence said in its latest report tabled in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha. 

"All desired steps should be taken so that Tejas is operational by the stipulated timeframe and there is no further cost escalation," the report said. 

The LCA, sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore, is slated to be ready for initial operational clearance only by December this year. 

The first phase of the project was completed in April 2004 at a cost of Rs 2,188 crore. 

The sanctioned cost of the second phase was Rs 3,301.87 crore and the originally scheduled date of completion was December 31, 2008. 

The defence ministry informed the panel that in November 2009 further sanction was accorded for continuing full scale engineering development of LCA, touted to be a fourth generation fighter jet, till December 2018 with an additional cost of Rs 5,302.98 crore. 

The committee noted that the engine of Tejas was running into serious problem and the option of either importing an engine or persisting with the indigenously developed Kaveri engine was finally decided upon by favouring a foreign engine for which tenders had been issued. 

"The committee emphasises that the various problems being faced with Tejas engine should be sorted out expeditiously," the report said. 
DRDO, IAF rapped for time, cost overruns in LCA project - India - The Times of India


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## pandamonkey

Note at the ner end of the article it cearly states what iam talking about.
" "The committee emphasises that the various problems being faced with Tejas engine should be sorted out expeditiously," the report said."
And above that line it says that a tender for FOREIGN engines has been issued because of the Kaveris problems.
"The committee noted that the engine of Tejas was running into serious problem and the option of either importing an engine or persisting with the indigenously developed Kaveri engine was finally decided upon by favouring a foreign engine for which tenders had been issued."

Why would the issue tenders for foreign engines if the Kaveri wasn't even tested yet. Your point about the kaveri being test next mont is irevelant, because this article and the one before this clearly say that the kaveri is a failer and is being replaced by a foreign engine.

Sorry if i sound rude.


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## Arjun MBT

Kaveri engine has indeed failed, But Its currently Undergoing altitude trials in russia and Will have trials next month , then we will come to know as how far of a success was it, But Again I repeat, R&D takes time.... We are researching and No matter if money takes, Our scientists have an Idea now, Money should be spent in areas like this...

Lets wait for the result next month

Here is the link

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/62518/india-flight-test-first-indigenous.html

http://indiadefenceonline.com/1817/gtre-to-test-kaveri-engine/
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_india-s-to-flight-test-first-indigenous-jet-engine-next-month_1368396
http://article.wn.com/view/2010/04/07/Kaveri_engine_flight_test_in_May/
http://www.zeenews.com/news617197.html
http://www.newkerala.com/news/fullnews-84985.html

Hope I made it clear to you


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## pandamonkey

mmmmmm. iam confused. one indian news site says the Kaveri is a failer and the other that its being tested next month. One says that its being droped for a foreign engine and the other thats its for the LCA. And isn't the kaveri suppose to be homemade??? why is it being tested in russia???


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## Arjun MBT

pandamonkey said:


> mmmmmm. iam confused. one indian news site says the Kaveri is a failer and the other that its being tested next month. One says that its being droped for a foreign engine and the other thats its for the LCA. And isn't the kaveri suppose to be homemade??? *why is it being tested in russia*???



Because we do not have High altitude test facility here, So we have taken it to Russia for High altitude testing of Kaveri engine


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## holysaturn

pandamonkey said:


> mmmmmm. iam confused. one indian news site says the Kaveri is a failer and the other that its being tested next month. One says that its being droped for a foreign engine and the other thats its for the LCA. And isn't the kaveri suppose to be homemade??? why is it being tested in russia???



the plan was to use the gtre-snecma kaveri but as it wud take atleast 5 years the iaf wud go for a proven engine(ej-200 or ge-414).....the upgraded kaveri wud be used for future versions and the NGFA(MCA).......meanwhile the airworthyness of the existing kaveri will be tested in russia and future developments(like eco core) will go into it later(if an agreement is signed)........kaveri-I has enough thrust to power lca trainer,ucav,the kabini core will be modified to power HALE uavs.


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## pandamonkey

well i guess even a failed kaveri is better what we in pakistan have. we have never even attempted to make one. You learn alot more from failed dreams then successful ones.


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## pandamonkey

in the short terms the project might suck, but in the long term it will help homegrown indian avation by tonnns


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## Arjun MBT

pandamonkey said:


> well i guess even a failed kaveri is better what we in pakistan have. we have never even attempted to make one. You learn alot more from failed dreams then successful ones.



It dosent matter, One day Pakistan would also Concentrate On R&D... And Well lets leave this kaveri till the next month, Kaveri will not be Scrapped, We have Invested a lot in it, so We will get it fixed...


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## pandamonkey

well if they get all the problems sorted out. it would be great for indian avation. Would their be other planes that would be able to use the kaveri??? if so it would also make a great export.


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## Arjun MBT

pandamonkey said:


> well if they get all the problems sorted out. it would be great for indian avation. Would their be other planes that would be able to use the kaveri??? if so it would also make a great export.



Well, Developing MCA in which Kaveri would be Used, and why not? If Kaveri proves itself It will be open to the world


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## bumbgola

pandamonkey said:


> why is it being tested in russia???



http://www.business-standard.com/in...ngine-finally-poised-for-first-flight/369298/

a fully built Kaveri engine will be transported to a testing facility outside Moscow called the Gromov Flight Research Institute. Here, a giant IL-76 aircraft will have one of its four engines replaced with a Kaveri. Russian and GTRE experts will then evaluate the Kaveri&#8217;s performance while the IL-76 flies.

Before the actual flight tests, Russian experts at Moscow&#8217;s Central Institute of Aviation Motors will run ground checks on the Kaveri&#8217;s performance, in conditions that simulate altitudes up to 15 kilometers (49,200 feet).

Business Standard visited the Kaveri ground test bed at GTRE, Bangalore, where Russian experts are finishing &#8220;pre-acceptance checks&#8221; on the Kaveri engine that is headed for their facilities in Russia. The giant turbofan engine, suspended from a ceiling bracket, was being revved up gradually. As it roared to a deafening crescendo, engineers monitored the Kaveri&#8217;s power output, watching carefully from behind a bullet-proof glass window.

&#8220;The Kaveri&#8217;s development is complete&#8221;, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao, &#8220;In ground testing at GTRE it met the performance parameters laid down in 1998. The next step is to confirm that it performs during flight. A 50-person GTRE team will travel with the engine to Moscow and participate in the flight trials over the next 3-4 months.&#8221;

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.


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## kish

pandamonkey said:


> well i guess even a failed kaveri is better what we in pakistan have. we have never even attempted to make one. You learn alot more from failed dreams then successful ones.[/QUOT]
> 
> 
> u r right ... its not a fail , its for getting experience so that one day we can have a totally indigenous technology.


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## kish

what kind of radar its going to have????


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## gogbot

kish said:


> what kind of radar its going to have????



Our own MMR radar developed for the LCA .


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## gogbot

Since no one is answering you questions all to well , can i give it a go.



pandamonkey said:


> I find it very interesting that LCA's development cost will soon exceed the Swedish Griphen. Will the LCA be as good as the griphen even though it development cost will be more than the Griphen??????
> 
> "Even Swedish Gripen fighter's developmental cost was around Rs 12,640 crore,'' said an official."
> "The Rs 13,000-crore mark for the LCA project is breached even if the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside."



ToI has been peddling a lot of BS now at days.
Let me put everything is perspective.

12,640 crore , is the amount of money that is going to be spent on the LCA programme until 2018.
This Includes the development of the LCA-N and LCA-MkII , which includes the upgrades for the MK-II and navy version.



> the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside



The sweeds did not develop their own engine , so their cost is also not engine inclusive. 



> Will the LCA be as good as the griphen even though it development cost will be more than the Griphen??????



You look at the spec for the SAAB Grpihen NG and the HAL Tejas-MKII . They are nearly identical.

the only dissimilarities is the easier, quicker giphen maintenance and refit for field crews , as opposed to the Tejas being build faster on the production line than normal aircraft.

The Griphen uses Canards and Relaxed Stability in its design , while the Tejas just uses Relaxed static stability , with possibly(if the EJ-2000 is picked) Trust vectoring as opposed to canards in the MK-II version



pandamonkey said:


> I thought the LCA was gona have a homegrown engine, but according to the article they are gona use a america engine then some other one for later models



The KAVERI engine was de-linked from the LCA program.

the Kaveri in its present state , meeting the specifications set in 1996 can not be used on the Tejas.

GRTE and SCHEMA(French) are now working on a new KAVERI-MKII
With increased thrust in the same range as the GE-414.

The Hindu : Front Page : Kaveri project: DRDO gets nod for tie-up with French firm



pandamonkey said:


> mmmmmm. iam confused. one indian news site says the Kaveri is a failer and the other that its being tested next month. One says that its being droped for a foreign engine and the other thats its for the LCA. And isn't the kaveri suppose to be homemade??? why is it being tested in russia???



Kaveri is not a failure, its development is in fact nearing an end.
Its project goals have been met.

India's to flight-test first indigenous jet engine next month - dnaindia.com

India does not have the High altitude Testing facilities . Which costs several hundreds of corers to set up.

Its cheaper to takes it to Russia and test it at their facilities.



pandamonkey said:


> in the short terms the project might suck, but in the long term it will help homegrown indian avation by tonnns





pandamonkey said:


> well if they get all the problems sorted out. it would be great for indian avation. Would their be other planes that would be able to use the kaveri??? if so it would also make a great export.



Plans are also already under way for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kaveri core, named as Kabini. i

GTX-35VS Kaveri-MK1 - Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

GTRE/SCHEMA Kaveri MKII - Dassult Rafael (India's own , if purchased.), HAL Tejas (planned for production models)

KAVERI NG - concept Based on the Kaveri MKII , to power the 
HAL Medium Combat Aircraft and beyond.

Derivatives:
The Indian government plans to adapt and further develop the Kaveri engine design and technology to create a gas-turbine powerplant for armoured fighting vehicles such as the Arjun tank.

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT), a recently developed derivative of the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for ships.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also to note , the GTX-35VS Kaveri mk1(produces more trust than current Tejas engine GE-404) can be installed and used on the Tejas. IAF however is not happy with its own requirements set down in 1996 and have classified it as underpowered, meaning there are altitude and weight restrictions(important when operating in the high altitudes of Kargil or Saichen). If you are wondering why the Kaveri is not used. its becuase the GE engines have already been bought as of 2006 , when the Kaveri project showing no signs of progress. The Kaveri MkI is not to late for the Tejas MkI .

Since the GE-404 it self is unsatisfactory , a new more powerfull engine is being selected(GE-414 (f-18) or the EJ-2000 (Eurofighter)) and the Kaveri MKII is being built around those specifications.

So is they wanted to they could make a combat worthy Tejas.
They can still make one using the Current Kaveri MkI . It will just suffer from Altitude and weight restrictions

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sricharannaidu

pandamonkey said:


> well if they get all the problems sorted out. it would be great for indian avation. Would their be other planes that would be able to use the kaveri??? if so it would also make a great export.



we are using kaveri egine for our war ships with little modification.....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sricharannaidu said:


> we are using kaveri egine for our war ships with little modification.....



WHAT?
This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?


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## bumbgola

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



Press release from DRDO dated 17 July 2008 

DEMONSTRATION OF 12 MW MARINE GAS TURBINE DEVELOPED BY GTRE (DRDO) FOR INDIAN NAVY 

Gas Turbine Research Establishment, Bangalore of DRDO had been indigenously developing Kaveri engine for propelling the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas). As a spin off during development, a marine version has been evolved to develop shaft power for propelling Indian Naval ship.

Using the core of the Kaveri engine, the scientists of GTRE have added Low Pressure Compressor & Turbine as a gas generator and designed a Free Power Turbine to generate shaft Power for the maritime application. The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) as it has been named has been transported to Naval Dock Yard, Vishakapatnam and installed on to the Marine Gas Turbine test bed which is an Indian Navy Facility capable of testing the Gas Turbines upto 25 MW of shaft power through a reduction gearbox and a water brake dynamometer.

The involvement of Indian Navy in the development of the engine including their participation during testing has given a tremendous push to the success achieved so far.

During the recent visit of the Prime Minister of India, Dr. Manmohan Singh to Naval Dock Yard, Vishakapatnam, Shri T. Mohana Rao, Director, GTRE has demonstrated the engine to the VVIP along with the Senior Naval Officers. The engine has been further tested to its potential of 12 MW at ISA SL 35°C condition which is the requirement of Indian Navy for propelling the SNF (Rajput) class of ships. This peak power was demonstrated to various dignitaries including the Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri Shri M. Natarajan, Vice Admiral B.S.Randhawa, PVSM, AVSM, VSM, Dr. D.Banerjee, CC (R&D) among others.

India will become self-reliant in this critical technology of Gas Turbines for ship propulsion with the support Indian Navy as a very active and participating user throughout the development. This will put India in the elite club of Marine Gas Turbine designers amongst USA, Russia, UK and Ukraine.


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



When I just know how to paint, such things happens...

*kaveri-marine*

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/defenceresearch/gtre/kaveri-marine.jpg


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## sms

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



Turbine engines used in marine and defence applications starting early sixties.
here is some thing for you to read....

*Tanks*
The first use of a gas turbine in an armoured fighting vehicle was in 1954 when a unit, PU2979, specifically developed for tanks by C. A. Parsons & Co., was installed and trialled in a British Conqueror tank.[17] Since then, *gas turbine engines have been used as APUs in some tanks and as main powerplants in Soviet/Russian T-80s and U.S. M1 Abrams tanks, among others*. They are lighter and smaller than diesels at the same sustained power output but the models installed to date are less fuel efficient than the equivalent diesel, especially at idle, requiring more fuel to achieve the same combat range. Successive models of M1 have addressed this problem with battery packs or secondary generators to power the tank's systems while stationary, saving fuel by reducing the need to idle the main turbine. T-80s can mount three large external fuel drums to extend their range. Russia has stopped production of the T-80 in favour of the diesel-powered T-90 (based on the T-72), while Ukraine has developed the diesel-powered T-80UD and T-84 with nearly the power of the gas-turbine tank.


*Naval*

The first gas-turbine-powered naval vessel was the Royal Navy's Motor Gun Boat MGB 2009 (formerly MGB 509) converted in 1947. Metropolitan-Vickers developed the *"Beryl" engine equipping an existing F2/3 jet engine with a power turbine*. As the test was successful, the Fast Patrol Boats Bold Pioneer and Bold Pathfinder built in 1953 were the first ships created specifically for gas turbine propulsion.[18]

The first large scale, gas-turbine powered ships, were the Royal Navy's Type 81 (Tribal class) frigates, the first of which (HMS Ashanti) was commissioned in 1961.

The first U.S. gas-turbine powered ships were the U.S. Coast Guard's Hamilton-class High Endurance Cutters the first of which (USCGC Hamilton) commissioned in 1967. Since then, they have powered the U.S. Navy's Perry-class frigates, Spruance-class and Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruisers. 

Full artical...
Gas turbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sudhir007




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## ramu

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



Nice to see how you can jump into foot in mouth syndrome. 
Kaveri Engine is still an engine that delivers power. Its power to weight ratio is not as per specifications. India is trying to reduce the weight and resolve few other issues. Nothing stops such an engine to drive a Naval vessel.


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## KS

ramu said:


> Nice to see how you can jump into foot in mouth syndrome.
> Kaveri Engine is still an engine that delivers power. Its power to weight ratio is not as per specifications. India is trying to reduce the weight and resolve few other issues. Nothing stops such an engine to drive a Naval vessel.



arre bhai y pick on a small kid caught with the foot in his mouth...pls leav him alone....


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## gogbot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



Only a fool would call Kaveri a failure.

The engine works and can be used in trainer aircraft, HALE(HIgh,altitude. long.endurance) UAV's and (HALE) UCAV's , ships and tanks, but its weight has upset the T/W ratio on Tejas , making it underpowered on the plane.

We aimed for the moon but fell in the stars ,
with bit of French help we will close the remaining gap.

You will hear about Kaveri many times , this decade so get used to it.


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## Dark Angel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?





*Whats the matter cat caught your tongue *


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## Indian-Devil

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> WHAT?
> This engine is a failure and how can somebody use a jet engine on a naval ship?



This is only known to those countries who built jet engines, these can be used in naval ship with some modifications.
And who told you that Kaveri is a failure, although its not meeting new ASR requirement for Airforce of 90kN but its giving output of 80-82 kN already and GTRE is working with Scnema for 90kN Kaveri Eco core engine.

Do you ever know any other word apart failure for Kaveri, Tejas, Arjun or any other indian products.


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## Mr. cool

Indian-Devil said:


> This is only known to those countries who built jet engines, these can be used in naval ship with some modifications.
> And who told you that Kaveri is a failure, although its not meeting new ASR requirement for Airforce of 90kN but its giving output of 80-82 kN already and GTRE is working with Scnema for 90kN Kaveri Eco core engine.
> 
> Do you ever know any other word apart failure for Kaveri, Tejas, Arjun or any other indian products.



DON'T FEED THE TROLLS....................


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1341 Test Flights successfully. (12-Apr-10).

LCA has completed 1341 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-134,PV3-210,LSP1-59,LSP2-147,PV5-11).


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## deepakaviator

Those who think that kaveri is a failure... need 2 think again ...
The Kaveri is still in development, and reports indicate that it will be ready to fly by 2009. Testing and certification for use on the Tejas is expected to take some more time after that. Till then, the first two squadrons of Tejas will be powered by the GE404 engine.
Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further
DRDO has reportedly been able to develop single crystal blades, which represent a major technological achievement for engine development. Production and integrating this technology into the engine is expected to take some more time.
Kaveri has already undergone 1,700 hours of tests and has been sent twice to Russia to undergo high-altitude tests for which India has no facility. The engine is also being tested to power the next generation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.
In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to selected. Development of the Kaveri by the GTRE would continue for other future applications.
It was announced in November 2008 that the Kaveri engine will be installed on LCA by December 2009, apparently for tests only.[citation needed] On 28th nov 2009 a top DRDO official said kaveri engine would be ready for Tejas by march-april 2010.


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## deepakaviator

Those who think that kaveri is a failure... need 2 think again ...
The Kaveri is still in development, and reports indicate that it will be ready to fly by 2009. Testing and certification for use on the Tejas is expected to take some more time after that. Till then, the first two squadrons of Tejas will be powered by the GE404 engine.
Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further
DRDO has reportedly been able to develop single crystal blades, which represent a major technological achievement for engine development. Production and integrating this technology into the engine is expected to take some more time.
Kaveri has already undergone 1,700 hours of tests and has been sent twice to Russia to undergo high-altitude tests for which India has no facility. The engine is also being tested to power the next generation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.
In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to selected. Development of the Kaveri by the GTRE would continue for other future applications.
It was announced in November 2008 that the Kaveri engine will be installed on LCA by December 2009, apparently for tests only.[citation needed] On 28th nov 2009 a top DRDO official said kaveri engine would be ready for Tejas by march-april 2010.


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## Tejas-MkII

tarmak007 -- aviation, space & defence news. welcome onboard the bold and bang blog.

BREAKING NEWS: TEJAS LSP-3 COMPLETES SUCCESSFUL FIRST FLIGHT WITH ELTA MMR ONBOARD. IT FLEW FOR 40 MINUTES AT 0.8 MACH SPEED.

sorry there are 2 many thread on this


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## MZUBAIR

So engine is decided or still the decision is to be made.
Without engine every thing is junk


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## flaming arrow

MZUBAIR said:


> So engine is decided or still the decision is to be made.
> Without engine every thing is junk



IT HAS AN ENGINE AND IT IS FLYING SO DNT COCKOFF!!THE DAY WE GET A BETTER ENGINE WE WILL TELL
ABOUT UR JUNK STATEMENT WE WERE NOT ASKING ABOUT UR JF-17


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## deepakaviator

I guess i hve clearly mentiond in ma post that d 1st 2 squadons will be powered by the GE404 engine... nd as soon as kaveri kicks off, it'll replace GE... nd still u guyz usin words like junk for d LCA... thn god may help u guyz...


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## thunder rules

the interesting thing is lca tejas gives a great resemblance to French made mirages ..


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## satishkumarcsc

thunder rules said:


> the interesting thing is lca tejas gives a great resemblance to French made mirages ..



Both are tail-less delta configuration and the comparison ends here. They both are different classes of fighters for different roles.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mirage/images/mirage2000_1.jpg

http://www.sawf.org/Newsphotos/Blogphotos/Tejas_Leh_Trials.jpg


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## Novice09

*LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence*
LCA Tejas LSP-3 Makes Maiden Flight!


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## MZUBAIR

Wts the new radar and engine for LCA?
Is any one agree to offer u an Engine after the refusal of lockhead?


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## KEETARP

*LCA LSP3 FLEW WITH AESA RADAR*​Angle of Attack: LCA Radar is a AESA.

Angle of Attack has learnt that the Radar tested on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. Complete information is still not available but it is confirmed that the radar was AESA bring India in a club of select few nations. So far only the Americans have a AESA radar in service on their F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. UAE also has AESA radar on their F-16 Block 60 which is also of American origin. Many other countries are currently testing and developing AESA radar.
According to past reports the AESA radar could have had a Indian Antenna, radome and scanner with a Israeli processor. This might be sketchy but this all Angle of Attack knows right now. The aircraft also had a new air data processor, Radar warning receiver and a new navigation and communication system bring the aircraft very close to its IOC standard.
Project director P.S Subramanyam said that all the testing necessary to receive the IOC certificate are done except the flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance which will be done once LSP-4 and LSP-5 start flying. *According to him LSP-4 will be ready in a month and the LSP-5 will be ready a week later after LSP-4. Hence we can conclude that IOC certificate could be received by the Tejas within 6-7 months from now*. 
Angle of Attack will relay more info as soon as it gets it.

Guys info is from the same source who first broke abt LCH first flight even before DRDO release . 
Also one of my friends on IDRW - very reliable source .
Great news

Reactions: Like Like:
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## holysaturn

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *LCA LSP3 FLEW WITH AESA RADAR*​Angle of Attack: LCA Radar is a AESA.
> 
> Angle of Attack has learnt that the Radar tested on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. Complete information is still not available but it is confirmed that the radar was AESA bring India in a club of select few nations. So far only the Americans have a AESA radar in service on their F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. UAE also has AESA radar on their F-16 Block 60 which is also of American origin. Many other countries are currently testing and developing AESA radar.
> According to past reports the AESA radar could have had a Indian Antenna, radome and scanner with a Israeli processor. This might be sketchy but this all Angle of Attack knows right now. The aircraft also had a new air data processor, Radar warning receiver and a new navigation and communication system bring the aircraft very close to its IOC standard.
> Project director P.S Subramanyam said that all the testing necessary to receive the IOC certificate are done except the flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance which will be done once LSP-4 and LSP-5 start flying. *According to him LSP-4 will be ready in a month and the LSP-5 will be ready a week later after LSP-4. Hence we can conclude that IOC certificate could be received by the Tejas within 6-7 months from now*.
> Angle of Attack will relay more info as soon as it gets it.
> 
> Guys info is from the same source who first broke abt LCH first flight even before DRDO release .
> Also one of my friends on IDRW - very reliable source .
> Great news



might be true,indians are good in making aesa antenna as in cabs awacs,swordfish radar.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *LCA LSP3 FLEW WITH AESA RADAR*​Angle of Attack: LCA Radar is a AESA.
> 
> Angle of Attack has learnt that the Radar tested on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. Complete information is still not available but it is confirmed that the radar was AESA bring India in a club of select few nations. So far only the Americans have a AESA radar in service on their F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. UAE also has AESA radar on their F-16 Block 60 which is also of American origin. Many other countries are currently testing and developing AESA radar.
> According to past reports the AESA radar could have had a Indian Antenna, radome and scanner with a Israeli processor. This might be sketchy but this all Angle of Attack knows right now. The aircraft also had a new air data processor, Radar warning receiver and a new navigation and communication system bring the aircraft very close to its IOC standard.
> Project director P.S Subramanyam said that all the testing necessary to receive the IOC certificate are done except the flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance which will be done once LSP-4 and LSP-5 start flying. *According to him LSP-4 will be ready in a month and the LSP-5 will be ready a week later after LSP-4. Hence we can conclude that IOC certificate could be received by the Tejas within 6-7 months from now*.
> Angle of Attack will relay more info as soon as it gets it.
> 
> Guys info is from the same source who first broke abt LCH first flight even before DRDO release .
> Also one of my friends on IDRW - very reliable source .
> Great news



If true this is very good news. I have my doubts. Moreover, given the recent RFP sent out by DRDO for T/R elements and some other systems of AESA from a foreign vendor, I am hard pressed to believe that this is indeed an "indian" AESA radar. It could in all likelihood be a foreign radar with indian components but not the T/R elements for certain.


----------



## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> If true this is very good news. I have my doubts. Moreover, given the recent RFP sent out by DRDO for T/R elements and some other systems of AESA from a foreign vendor, I am hard pressed to believe that this is indeed an "indian" AESA radar. It could in all likelihood be a foreign radar with indian components but not the T/R elements for certain.



Yes , may be 
But might be they just bypassed 2032 and decided to go along with 2052 without any hassle in future. And use that T/R JV for AEW .
Lets wait till evening Things will clear out.

Timeline for LSP-4,5 is indeed welcome thing.


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## holysaturn

it may well be a 2052 with indian components.


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## satishkumarcsc

MZUBAIR said:


> Wts the new radar and engine for LCA?
> Is any one agree to offer u an Engine after the refusal of lockhead?



Lockheed makes engines for modern fighter aircrafts? I didn't know that. Can anyone clarify it?

The Engine used now is the GE 404 IN20. It will power the first 40 LCA MK1. The Mk2 version will be powered by the GE 414 or the EJ 200 of the F 18 and Eurofighter game. The TWR of LCA right now is more than 1 but IAF wants the TWR of LCA to be 1.2 atleast. That is why the Engine replacement.

There are 2 radars but Israel is providing Antenna for both. The Elta 2032 Antennae along with Indian electronics is one project and the Elta 2052 antenna with Indian electronics and decision making systems. Its still not clear which radar is being used.


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## DMLA

These guys need to get their act together !!

LCA radar is not a AESA ! 



> Well it seems like the mystery has finally ended maybe a little on a sad note. As reported by us earlier that the radar recently tested on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being a AESA is wrong. It was justed informed to us that the radar tested was not a AESA but a hybrid of Elta- 2032.
> The Radar is a mechanically steered multi-mode radar based on Israeli's Elta-2032 which currently in service on-board Indian Navy's Sea Harrier's. It was confirmed to us that the radar is 100&#37; Indian with only the processor of Israeli origin. This radar will be used on the first 40 LCA's which are on order for the Indian Air force(IAF). Later on the LCA Mk-2's will have a AESA which is in works.
> Angle of Attack apologizes for the misinforming before and letting the readers down. However with very little information coming out of HAL airport we did our best. But this still is a great achievement for the project and we wish all the best to the team for the coming future.



from angle of attack

This should clear up the debate. It would seem that the first AESA for IAF will be through MMRCA afterall!


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## gogbot

DMLA said:


> These guys need to get their act together !!
> 
> LCA radar is not a AESA !
> 
> 
> 
> from angle of attack
> 
> This should clear up the debate. It would seem that the first AESA for IAF will be through MMRCA afterall!



Is said its the same radar as on our sea harriers.



> The Indian Navy is in the process of upgrading up to fifteen Sea Harriers in collaboration with Israel by installing the Elta EL/M-2032 radar and the Rafael 'Derby' medium range air to air missile.



That confirms it i guess.


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## gogbot

*Tejas LSP-3 was carrying Hybrid MMR radar*

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
Its now almost confirmed that the Radar carried by Tejas LSP-3 is a Hybrid version of Eltas 2032 radar ,with Indian Inputs , Most of the inputs by India in this new Hybrid are most from the local MMR radar which was in development for a while now , but the Israeli 2032 back end processor unit has been used for the radar , new HYBRID MMR was flight tested in Israel in a Boeing Test Bed and as per sources few have been deleivered to Indian Labs which will it intergrate it with other LSP aircrafts .
Next aircraft LSP-4 which has already conducted its ground trials and soon radar will be integrated and the first test is expected within a month or two and then followed by LSP-5 which is also almost ready , all aircrafts will have a radar and soon LSP-1/2 will also be pulled put of test flying to be integrated with all the other avionics package and auto pilot with radars

Tejas LSP-3 was carrying Hybrid MMR radar idrw.org

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## nakodo

irrelevant hence purged


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## gogbot

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Absolute garbage delete that post.
writer knows not what he is talking about



> "The first two LCA squadrons, consisting of 20 jets each, will be fitted with General Electric engines,"



The first 2 squadrons will use the GE-404 IN engines already purchased. Not any other engines. No time for testing and certification

The Mk-2 will use new engines, yet to be selected. It was supposed to have been picked by now, but i suspect it is under delays due to the MRCA tender still not having selected its fighter.

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## shaktiman2010

^^ Well that's how India runs.

Indian media is filled with fools who claim they are "experts".

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## Sri

Hi, 
LCA LSP 3 was supposed to have other enhancements like weight reduction etc. does anyone know whether it has been achieved? Also whats the range/performance of the MMR.
thanks


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## shaktiman2010

*^^ Weight reduction is a false bogey, used by morons in IAF to kill several world class "in-the-initial" stage projects from DRDO.

I give you simple example-

Plane A of country A weighs 5tons and flies at 350m/sec. and carries a payload of 6tons.

Plane B of country B weights 5.5tons and flies at 350m/sec. and carries a payload of 5.5tons.

Now, should country B's airforce reject the plane B just because it doesn't match performance metrics of Country A?

This is how morons in IAF do their maths. They reject wonderful home-made technology just because they are not mature enough to understand that if they don't support home-grown efforts now, it will be too late in future.

IAF thinkless tanks committed same mistake in 1960,70s by diverting huge funds from domestic R&D to Russia. And, now they are repeating the blunders by delaying AMCA by 5 years.*

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## no_name

What's the suitability/feasibility of having LCA as a sort of dedicated light ground attack craft.

I think it's small size would be an advantage.


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## lhuang

^ It's designed as an interceptor with very low payload, it has no role as an a2g fighter.


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## gogbot

no_name said:


> What's the suitability/feasibility of having LCA as a sort of dedicated light ground attack craft.
> 
> I think it's small size would be an advantage.





lhuang said:


> ^ It's designed as an interceptor with very low payload, it has no role as an a2g fighter.






> "The Tejas is single-engined multirole fighter which features a tailless, compound delta-wing planform and is designed with "relaxed static stability" for enhanced maneuverability.
> Originally intended to serve as an air superiority aircraft with a secondary "dumb bomb" ground-attack role, the flexibility of this design approach has permitted a variety of guided air-to-surface and anti-shipping weapons to be integrated for more well-rounded multirole and multimission capabilities."



IAF's original requirements in the 80's were for an interceptor.

But after maturity in the program they gained confidence to increase the requirements to a multi-role aircraft. with greater A2G and anti ship capabilites


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## Dark Angel

The radar that it uses will have all 3 modes A2G, A2A & A2S 

See this page for further info Multirole combat aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Just Yash

lhuang said:


> ^ It's designed as an interceptor with very low payload, it has no role as an a2g fighter.



May be following Photos may clear you confusion

1) Tejas with Lightning Pod

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/defenceresearch/ada/lightening%20pod%20on%20Tejas.jpg 

2) Image of Tejas carrying Bombs 



3) Again LCA with bombs, Missiles and droop tanks







4) LCA and it's weapon (Include bomb)






5) Above image at diff angle(Now also show Rocket Launcher)






6) LCA Dropping Iron Bomb

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5954/img0445756363.jpg

Ok...............................................

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## Dark Angel

LITENING targeting pod






LITENING pod on a F/A-18




The AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING targeting pod is a precision targeting pod system currently operational with a wide variety of combat aircraft. *LITENING significantly increases the combat effectiveness of the aircraft during day, night and under-the-weather conditions in the attack of ground and air*[1] targets with a variety of standoff weapons (i.e., laser guided bombs, conventional bombs and GPS-guided weapons). The system was designed in Israel


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## lhuang

It's profile is akin to a mosquito


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## jagjitnatt

lhuang said:


> It's profile is akin to a mosquito



But its no ordinary mosquito. Its like a dengue mosquito. Bitten once, sufferings for months.

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## Mauryan

lhuang said:


> ^ It's designed as an interceptor with very low payload, it has no role as an a2g fighter.



thats a bit of mis-conception.

LCA was never meant to be an interceptor,instead meant to be a multi-role light-combat aircraft.

Its preference for a multi-mode radar says it all.

some circles in IAF even though of getting rid of Mig-27 with LCA as replacements.

Even LCA with is current configeration is a pretty good multi-role fighter( just has to demonstrate precision guided bombing and BVRAAM) with a decent Radar and targetting pods.

While LCA-MKII will bring in more features like AESA radar(which is undergoing testing),OLS/IRST,more advanced EW suit,..... ADA is wanting to match it capabilitites to a 4.5+ gen fighter(which says it all)


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## TheWarriorIndian

*HAL Tejas parked next to F-16 and Eurofighter *


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## sirius4u

TheWarriorIndian said:


> *HAL Tejas parked next to F-16 and Eurofighter *



Can you plz tell me when dis pic was taken...? Aero India... 07..?


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## TheWarriorIndian

sirius4u said:


> Can you plz tell me when dis pic was taken...? Aero India... 07..?



Aero India 07 I guess....


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## sirius4u

TheWarriorIndian said:


> Aero India 07 I guess....



Should be... Coz i visited AI 09... Tejas, F16, Eurofighter were not parked for visitors viewing...


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## kish

WebMaster said:


> Actually, without Russian assitance. LCA will never get to fight in the air. Right now it has no hope.  While JF-17 numbers have increased from 150 to 200-250. Thats what you call a successful aircraft.



how much indigenous is jf_17. its also using foreign engine and other system . and a lot of work by china.


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## karan.1970

kish said:


> how much indigenous is jf_17. its also using foreign engine and other system . and a lot of work by china.


dude.. check the dates.. you just responded to a 3 year old post


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## jagjitnatt

karan.1970 said:


> dude.. check the dates.. you just responded to a 3 year old post



also remind him the number of people who got banned for asking the same question.

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1350 Test Flights successfully. (27-Apr-10).

* LCA has completed 1350 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-139,PV3-211,LSP1-59,LSP2-148,PV5-12,LSP3-01).


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## sirius4u

I read somewhere regarding the production rate of tejas i.e., its only 8 ac/ year... 

Is this speed only for the limited series production acs...? 

Will this number go up if large numbers are ordered...?


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## sudhir007

sirius4u said:


> I read somewhere regarding the production rate of tejas i.e., its only 8 ac/ year...
> 
> Is this speed only for the limited series production acs...?
> 
> Will this number go up if large numbers are ordered...?



It can increase by later coze you can see ryt now it has only 40 LCA-MK1 order. and it is not clear foc which will come at later may be with MK-II which arrive at 2014-15. so we can easily give the delivery with in 4yr time period and also HAL dnt want to invest heavily without more order by IAF. But you can see when it got FOC and IAF give order around 150-200 HAL defiantly increase the production rate


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## gogbot

sirius4u said:


> I read somewhere regarding the production rate of tejas i.e., its only 8 ac/ year...
> 
> Is this speed only for the limited series production acs...?
> 
> Will this number go up if large numbers are ordered...?



HAL has said that number can be increased to 10

This is only for now.

Once a production line is set up and under way.

The Tejas Unique design means , production will be naturally higher as time goes on



> The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerized numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece.A 'nose' for the rudder is added by 'squeeze' riveting.
> The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%. *While each of these factors can reduce production costs, an additional benefit  and significant cost savings  is realised in the shorter time required to assemble the aircraft  seven months for the LCA as opposed to 11 months using an all-metal airframe.*



The source for this a DRDO documentary , you can find it on you tube

it wa about the LCA technology's

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## KEETARP

Great find Gogbot 

Less Rivets
Less holes 
Less welding 
More single pieces 
More composites

= More will be radar-deflection and bouncing away from source beam . 

And this will reflect on the detection distance of LCA against other enemy aircraft.


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## letsbefriends

sirius4u said:


> I read somewhere regarding the production rate of tejas i.e., its only 8 ac/ year...
> 
> Is this speed only for the limited series production acs...?
> 
> Will this number go up if large numbers are ordered...?



that IF is really big...isnt it buddy????


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Great find Gogbot
> 
> Less Rivets
> Less holes
> Less welding
> More single pieces
> More composites
> 
> = More will be radar-deflection and bouncing away from source beam .
> 
> And this will reflect on the detection distance of LCA against other enemy aircraft.



Don't get you hopes up , dude

You put weapons on the pylons and any RCS reduction will go to hell.

Tejas is already the worlds smallest aircraft in its class . Give that it has to carry weapons on the outside , it wont matter how much RCS reduction can occur due to lack of rivets.

But technologies like this are the base by which we are working on the FGFA and AMCA


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## Just Yash

gogbot said:


> Don't get you hopes up , dude
> 
> You put weapons on the pylons and any RCS reduction will go to hell.
> 
> Tejas is already the worlds smallest aircraft in its class . Give that it has to carry weapons on the outside , it wont matter how much RCS reduction can occur due to lack of rivets.
> 
> But technologies like this are the base by which we are working on the FGFA and AMCA



Sorry sir,

I have to disagree with you here,

Every other Aircraft in the world except F-22 is carrying it's weapons outside right now, but radar cross section of Typhoon and Rafael is much smaller then Su-30 and F-15 like fighter. 

As you mention Tejas is Already world's smallest fighter and use of composite m/t is Superb with vary less rivets and With 'Y' shaped engine inlet(So no Radar reflection form Engine Blades) it's radar cross section is much less then fighter of same class

And as u know DRDO is also working on RAM coating on LCA which is going to make it more stealthy

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The ADA claims that a degree of "stealth" has been designed into the Tejas. Being very small, there is an inherent degree of "visual stealth", but the airframe's use of a high degree of composites (which do not themselves reflect radar waves), a Y-duct inlet which shields the engine compressor face from probing radar waves, and the application of radar-absorbent material (RAM) coatings are intended to minimise its susceptibility to detection and tracking by the radars of enemy fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, active-radar air-to-air missiles (AAM), and surface-to-air missile (SAM) defence systems.



But i completely agree with u that Weapons and Fule tanks under the wing will kill the stealth fetchers but Tejas is definitely harder to detect at range and Use of BVR at higher range is going to Less compare to other air craft.


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## sirius4u

TD-1 has now been dismantled...

YouTube - Indain Air Force!!

Tears rolled down my eyes wen i saw this... Long live TD-1...


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## farhan_9909

the radar tested few days back was AESA or simple?

and what is the radar range of LCA?

thanx in advance


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## psychedelic_renegade

It's EL/M-2032. specs are available in wikipedia.


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## satishkumarcsc

It is an El/M 2032 radar antenna with the Indian MMR. It is not an AESA. It is an MESA.


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## gogbot

farhan_9909 said:


> the radar tested few days back was AESA or simple?
> 
> and what is the radar range of LCA?
> 
> thanx in advance



it was the hybrid MMR radar.

It made use of an Israeli processor and some inputs in the A2G mode ,but the rest was Indian.

The AESA radar for the LCA , is still in development. It is in fact an offshoot of DRDO's re-initiated AEW&CS program.

The Israeli El\M-2052 is being considered in the intern ,


> The Elta 2052 is an advanced airborne Active electronically scanned array fire control radar for fighter aircraft. It is suitable for F-15, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, LCA Tejas. The EL/M-2052 is an advanced Airborne Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air superiority and advanced strike missions.



However the first 40 Tejas , or the first 2 squadrons will use the Hybrid MMR.

We will simply have to see what the Mk-2 will use .
It wont be the same MMR radar, that much is known.


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## gogbot

satishkumarcsc said:


> It is an El/M 2032 radar antenna with the Indian MMR. It is not an AESA. It is an MESA.



What is MESA ?

do you mean mechanically scanned array.


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## farhan_9909

I thought LCA uses AESA radar

Is it comparable to the Kj-7 radar of Jf-17?

its range is nt mention in the wiki
can someone tell me its range


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## shiningindia

WebMaster said:


> If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!



you r administrator and u r trolling... i know now u banned me. but i never expected that u tell any thing without any proof.


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## jagjitnatt

farhan_9909 said:


> I thought LCA uses AESA radar
> 
> Is it comparable to the Kj-7 radar of Jf-17?
> 
> its range is nt mention in the wiki
> can someone tell me its range



Max range is 150 km for air to air mode.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf


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## aanshu001

gogbot said:


> What is MESA ?
> 
> do you mean mechanically scanned array.



Multi-Role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) Surveillance Radar

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## farhan_9909

jagjitnatt said:


> Max range is 150 km for air to air mode.
> 
> http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf



good

seem very good radar to me.


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## satishkumarcsc

gogbot said:


> What is MESA ?
> 
> do you mean mechanically scanned array.



No it is a mixture of both..the array is steered mechanically for different roles unlike the PESA and AESA use electronic power variations to steer the beam.

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## KEETARP

MESA is different thing altogether , and we only see it on Boeing's Wedgetail 737 AEW platform , recently handed over to RAAF.
What advantage it gives is apart from Electronically software controlled partition a mechanical movement in azimuth and side covers to give a 360 coverage , thats why its a AWACS platform radar.

Now this Tejas radar is mechanically moved and not electronically sterred , its a standard gymballed & mechanically steered planar type of radar with inputs from EL2032 for Processing and SAR mode while antennae and software are from DRDO. Much like what F16 Block 30-52 have.

Its nither phased array nor ESA - steering is purely mechanical.

You guys will ask then how the direction and phase of the radio source is controlled its through *waveguides* .
Here is pic of such waveguide behind f16 


While in ESA sytem phase control is by Wave-shifters or phase shifters .
Here is working of Phase - shifter in an ESA radar.

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## shiningindia

what a great news. converting LCA into UCAV. now they want billion of dollar for developing it. they already spend $3 billion to develop LCA and still underdevelopment. corrupted indian government.


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## KEETARP

Can be done , aerodynamic design is quite Robust and Uplift force control wont be a problem , considering auxillary control surface ( LEVCONS/LERX) has been planned for Tejas. 

This unstable design has only to be tinkered to give a relatively more stable design keeping same FCS which is of new gen if and if new Fly-by wire is not planned. 
AI experience will come in handy considering AI is planned for Pak-FA


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1354 Test Flights successfully. (11-May-10).

* LCA has completed 1354 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-140,PV3-213,LSP1-59,LSP2-148,PV5-12,LSP3-02).


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## Tejas-MkII

2 flight of LSP-3


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## kish

Zebronic said:


> Don't reply the troll...more you reply more they post...if you don't reply hardly they post 4 or 5 times and they will go..that will be better solution...




some members have really great patience here,,,,,,,,,


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## gogbot

An old video but still good , enjoy.

It seems apt to watch it now, given that IOC is just 7 months away


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## sudhir007

Engine Trouble may put Mig-27 for early retirement idrw.org

Indian Air force is considering retiring major fleet of mig-27 by 2015, as per reports almost half the squadrons strength will be &#8220;stood down&#8221; by 2015 .Fatal accident which have taken place recently all has been attributed to defects of R-29 engines, initial air force investigation has found major flaw in fourth line at the overhaul stage which is done by Hindustan Aeronautics limited.

Poor serviceability and design defects had forced IAF to ground all Mig-27 Squadrons after a Squadron leader was killed in February crash, sudden loss of power in low pressure turbine blades of the aircraft was reason behind the crash.

Mig-27 along with Jaguar aircraft still forms a major chuck of Strike fleet of Indian Air force; recently around 40 aircrafts were upgraded to Darin-II standards which sport a new navigation-and-attack avionics package, electronic warfare suite developed by the state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation.

Initially Darin-II upgrade package also included Engine upgrade, a single modern AL-31 engine that powers the Su-30 MKI was supposed to power Mig-27, and a single Mig-27 from IAF fleet was integrated and successfully tested in Russia by MiG-MAPO group, the original manufacturers of the MiG series of aircraft with an AL-31 Engine but for some reason the plan never materialized.

*It might come has a boom to Tejas MK-1 Program since Air force might consider ordering more Tejas Mk-1 from the current order of 40 jets due to early retirement been given to Mig-27 , while air force will maintain other fleet of Mig-27 with it till end of 2020 .*

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## jha

*U.S. Industry Hit By LCA Clearance Problem *



India is turning to Europe for support of the naval version of its Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), after its initial choice of the U.S. was stymied by an inability to gain the requisite approvals from Washington.

India selected Lockheed Martin as the winner of a bid for consultancy work on its naval LCA, but failure to secure U.S. State Department licensing approvals &#8212; at least in a timely fashion &#8212; now has resulted in EADS being in negotiation for the work.

This is not the first time regulatory issues have tripped up U.S. ambitions in India.

In April 2009 EADS picked up flight test work on the air force LCA as result of Boeing being forced to withdraw. The U.S. manufacturer had been tapped for the project in 2008, but an inability to gain the required approvals from the U.S. administration forced it to pull its bid.

The naval LCA is being designed for short take-off, but arrested recovery (Stobar), with a first flight of the naval variant by December.

Neither EADS nor Lockheed are willing to offer comment beyond general statements. The U.S. company says it &#8220;continues to work with the U.S. government to support the LCA program. EADS, beyond confirming it has a consultancy contact (for the air force aircraft), says &#8220;both sides have agreed they will not disclose any details.&#8221;

In March, the Indian government told Parliament that &#8220;deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the naval LCA [Navy]. The Defense Research and Development Organization [DRDO] is working out [approaches] with various organizations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design.&#8221; The consultancy is intended to support this effort.

The consultancy on the naval LCA involves auditing the aircraft&#8217;s current configuration and optimizing the aircraft&#8217;s landing gear and arrestor hook design. The intent is also to reduce the aircraft&#8217;s all-up weight by around 1,000 lb.

Sources involved with the program indicated that Lockheed&#8217;s inability to begin the consultancy on time had impacted the development effort, but the program itself was on schedule and progressing well. When ready, the naval LCA will primarily operate off Indian-built aircraft carriers, the first of which is under construction in Kochi.

The sources also said that with almost all of the LCA&#8217;s equipping and cabling complete, the first prototype is scheduled to roll out of its hangar by mid-July. Three months of integration tests will follow, including ground vibration tests, structural coupling tests and other test routines before a first ground run and taxi test scheduled for October. If all goes well, the first prototype will fly in December.

The front fuselage of the first naval prototype is identical to the fighter trainer (PV-5) that began tests in November 2009. The only part of the front fuselage in the naval prototype that will require a full routine of tests is a small additional control surface near the wing roots that is absent on the air force version. The naval variant will also have auxiliary air intakes.

Program officials admit that there have been multiple challenges in the design and configuration of the landing gear and arrestor hook assembly, especially in optimizing the aircraft&#8217;s sink rate, but were confident that it would prove itself during flight tests.

Apart from conventional takeoff and landing tests, the aircraft will undergo short takeoff and arrested landing tests at the Shore-Based Test Facility under construction at the Indian naval air station in Goa.

U.S. Industry Hit By LCA Clearance Problem | AVIATION WEEK

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## peacemaker10

Saw this new video on youtube .. 


YouTube - IAF - HAL TEJAS LCA Light Combact Aircraft walkaround KH2005 Indian Air force!

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## sancho

jha said:


> *U.S. Industry Hit By LCA Clearance Problem *
> 
> 
> 
> India is turning to Europe for support of the naval version of its Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), after its initial choice of the U.S. was stymied by an inability to gain the requisite approvals from Washington.
> 
> India selected Lockheed Martin as the winner of a bid for consultancy work on its naval LCA, but failure to secure U.S. State Department licensing approvals  at least in a timely fashion  now has resulted in EADS being in negotiation for the work.
> 
> This is not the first time regulatory issues have tripped up U.S. ambitions in India.
> 
> In April 2009 EADS picked up flight test work on the air force LCA as result of Boeing being forced to withdraw. The U.S. manufacturer had been tapped for the project in 2008, but an inability to gain the required approvals from the U.S. administration forced it to pull its bid.
> 
> The naval LCA is being designed for short take-off, but arrested recovery (Stobar), with a first flight of the naval variant by December.
> 
> Neither EADS nor Lockheed are willing to offer comment beyond general statements. The U.S. company says it continues to work with the U.S. government to support the LCA program. EADS, beyond confirming it has a consultancy contact (for the air force aircraft), says both sides have agreed they will not disclose any details.
> 
> In March, the Indian government told Parliament that deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the naval LCA [Navy]. The Defense Research and Development Organization [DRDO] is working out [approaches] with various organizations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design. The consultancy is intended to support this effort.
> 
> The consultancy on the naval LCA involves auditing the aircrafts current configuration and optimizing the aircrafts landing gear and arrestor hook design. The intent is also to reduce the aircrafts all-up weight by around 1,000 lb.
> 
> Sources involved with the program indicated that Lockheeds inability to begin the consultancy on time had impacted the development effort, but the program itself was on schedule and progressing well. When ready, the naval LCA will primarily operate off Indian-built aircraft carriers, the first of which is under construction in Kochi.
> 
> The sources also said that with almost all of the LCAs equipping and cabling complete, the first prototype is scheduled to roll out of its hangar by mid-July. Three months of integration tests will follow, including ground vibration tests, structural coupling tests and other test routines before a first ground run and taxi test scheduled for October. If all goes well, the first prototype will fly in December.
> 
> The front fuselage of the first naval prototype is identical to the fighter trainer (PV-5) that began tests in November 2009. The only part of the front fuselage in the naval prototype that will require a full routine of tests is a small additional control surface near the wing roots that is absent on the air force version. The naval variant will also have auxiliary air intakes.
> 
> Program officials admit that there have been multiple challenges in the design and configuration of the landing gear and arrestor hook assembly, especially in optimizing the aircrafts sink rate, but were confident that it would prove itself during flight tests.
> 
> Apart from conventional takeoff and landing tests, the aircraft will undergo short takeoff and arrested landing tests at the Shore-Based Test Facility under construction at the Indian naval air station in Goa.
> 
> U.S. Industry Hit By LCA Clearance Problem | AVIATION WEEK



What I don't understand here is why are they chosing companies with less experience in naval fighter development, if we could simply go to Mig, or Dassault? Both developed different carrier fighters, Mig has experience with STOBAR, Dassault with CATOBAR layouts, why they chose this difficult way instead?


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## sudhir007

check the LCA Variant

http://www.lca-tejas.org/variants.html


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## FlyingSpagetti

When is LCA's weapon testing due?


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## Sri

As far as I understand EADS is helping us with Air-force version not naval version. Right now we do not have any consultant for Naval version.

Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Just Yash

I love this nifty little fighter sooooo much..







*Kasam se when ever i see it flying, It feels like it took bit of my heart with it...*

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## sancho

FlyingSpagetti said:


> When is LCA's weapon testing due?



R73 and some bombs was tested before, if the radar is ready now R77 should be tested soon too and by the fact that the Litening pod is integrated, PGMs should be integrated soon too, but I guess they will wait till the Indian LGBs are ready. 




Sri said:


> As far as I understand EADS is helping us with Air-force version not naval version. Right now we do not have any consultant for Naval version.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong.


EADS is a consultant in the development, for flight test and changes regarding the weight. The last article posted by jha shows that they now could be a choice as a consultant for the naval version, instead of LM that was the first choice too.


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## farhan_9909

LCA or JF-17
which avionics are better

many indian claim that MAYAVI suit is still best in the world..

i want to knw frm an indian which aircraft avionics are better

jf-17(chineese) or LCA(india)


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## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> LCA or JF-17
> which avionics are better
> 
> many indian claim that MAYAVI suit is still best in the world..
> 
> i want to knw frm an indian which aircraft avionics are better
> 
> jf-17(chineese) or LCA(india)



Indian avionics suite *"Vetrivale"* is the best, which makes Sukhoi 30 MKI unique and better than any varient of its, Mayavi Avionics suit made for LCA tejas , I dont think it would be bad either, as It should be better than Vetrivale .... But I how ever dont want to compare it....


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## SpArK

Just Yash said:


> I love this nifty little fighter sooooo much..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kasam se when ever i see it flying, It feels like it took bit of my heart with it...*



You gonna see it fly more often

so i recommend:

India Surgery-Heart Transplant ,Best Price-India Surgery Heart Transplant


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## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Indian avionics suite *"Vetrivale"* is the best, which makes Sukhoi 30 MKI unique and better than any varient of its, Mayavi Avionics suit made for LCA tejas , I dont think it would be bad either, as It should be better than Vetrivale .... But I how ever dont want to compare it....



Heard that the chineese avionics are best and even better then the latest variant of f-16 forgot about LCA avionics


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## RPK

GUys Mayavi is EWS

Good news even Israel is considering same in F35

The Yeshiva World Lockheed Martin Officials Heading to Israel to Close F-35 Deal Frum Jewish News


*The two major disputes surround pricing and American objections to Israeli modifications, especially an electronic warfare unit (Mayavi) that Israel plans to install.*


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## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> Heard that the chineese avionics are best and even better then the latest variant of f-16 forgot about LCA avionics



I dont know dear, China has more knowledge in this field, theirs must be certainly good.... But Indian Avionics suit has been asked by Russia for the export Variants of Sukhoi 30 which is Being supplied to Malaysia and Algeria.....


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## shaktiman2010

Import lobby in MoD has benefits in delaying LCA in every possible way.


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> Heard that the chineese avionics are best and even better then the latest variant of f-16 forgot about LCA avionics



I think you can answer this question alone, if the Chinese avionics would be even better than the US versions, why would PAF try anything to get western avionics from France, Italy, or UK for JF 17, instead of Chinese?

Regarding avionics, it should be clear that Israel is possibly the best choice in this field and with the Mayavi EWS, developed by Elbit, the Rafael litening pod and the Elta 2032 radar, the LCA should have an advantage, over the Chinese in JF 17 block 1.

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## IndianArmy

Self Delete


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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> I think you can answer this question alone, if the Chinese avionics would be even better than the US versions, why would PAF try anything to get western avionics from France, Italy, or UK for JF 17, instead of Chinese?
> 
> Regarding avionics, it should be clear that *Israel is possibly the best choice in this field and with the Mayavi EWS*, developed by Elbit, the Rafael litening pod and the Elta 2032 radar, the LCA should have an advantage, over the Chinese in JF 17 block 1.




There is not much info. about mayawi in public domain.. but during AI-09 there was talk about RWR being developed by DARE, code name R-118(RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS(MAWS+LWS)
), may be tested on future LSPs of LCA(LSP5 for CMDS testing).



> ultimately LCA will have an internal jammer in the form of RWJ  at least in Mk2 versions
> 
> But DARE is moving onto to a new integrated system in which they are bringing the RWR and SPJ together. The system is called RWJ  Radar Warner Jammer (Codename not revealed)



Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - Aero India 2009

Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - Aero India 2009

Just go through above 2 links :esp the posts from rakal and k prasad.
u will know how far we already reached in EWS,u came to know all those jazzy names :MAWS,RWR,LWS,DIRCM,DRFM,etc, is being flight tested by 2009 and probably developed as a suit by now.And its definitely not the joke that russia want indian EWS for Su-30 to export to malaysia

PS:eagerly waiting for AI-11

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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> There is not much info. about mayawi in public domain.. but during AI-09 there was talk about RWR being developed by DARE, code name R-118(RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS(MAWS+LWS)
> ), may be tested on future LSPs of LCA(LSP5 for CMDS testing).



One member posted good infos and sources about Mayavi in this thread, which states that it is a Israeli - Indo co-development, but obviously with the higher content on their side. It will have some Indian parts for sure, but we mainly will benefit from their experience and knowledge.


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## syntax_error

EWS suite need signature of radars and other emissions on enemy aircraft IIRC .... where is India going to get that database to incorporate in the suite 

can any1 clear out this to me 
Thanks in advance


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## maithil

that should be taken care of by israel..imo..


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1375 Test Flights successfully. (31-May-10).

* LCA has completed 1375 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-149,PV3-214,LSP1-59,LSP2-152,PV5-15,*LSP3-06*).

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## IndianArmy

LCA is having a Long flight test.... When is the IOC for it?? december??


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## sudhir007

IndianArmy said:


> LCA is having a Long flight test.... When is the IOC for it?? december??



I think ADA and HAL are busy in currently radar testing u can see LSP-03 make 6 flight test which come with Hybrid MMR.


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## Chaluboy

IndianArmy said:


> LCA is having a Long flight test.... When is the IOC for it?? december??


Yes IOC is due by December


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## RadyLeo

TEJAS LSP 4 Maiden Flight - June 02

Tejas LSP-4 completes its successful maiden flight at HAL airport in Bangalore on June 2. The flight lasted for 40 minutes.

Great News!
Looks like we are rolling out new LSP's every month.. cool
Way to Go HAL.

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## IndianArmy

LSP4??? Thats a great news Indeed.... great going HAL


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## IndianArmy



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## sudhir007

IndianArmy said:


>



It is not readable.


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## sudhir007

IOC WITHIN SIGHT! LCA LSP-4 maiden 40-minute flight successful; Grp Capt Suneet Krishna goes supersonic at first attempt

*Tejas LSP-4 completes its successful maiden flight at HAL airport in Bangalore on June 2. The flight lasted for 40 minutes.** Gpr Capt Suneet Krishna piloted the aircraft.* "*This is fully equipped with IOC standards,*" says a thrilled ADA boss P.S. "More aircraft will join the fleet," says HAL chief Ashok Nayak. "We shall and we will," says Team NFTC. Stay tuned for photos and more info.

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Aerospace & Defence Blog With A Difference By Anantha Krishnan M.: IOC WITHIN SIGHT! LCA LSP-4 maiden 40-minute flight successful; Grp Capt Suneet Krishna goes supersonic at first attempt


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## IndianArmy

sudhir007 said:


> It is not readable.



same prob here


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## Sri

I am waiting for LSP 5 as this A/c will be used for testing AOA.


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## IndianArmy

Sri said:


> I am waiting for LSP 5 as this A/c will be used for testing AOA.



whats AOA?


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## ironman

*LSP-4​*












Courtesy: tarmak007.blogspot.com

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## sancho

Can anybody say something regarding the diameter of the nose, or of MMR/2032?


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## Hulk

Looks like IOC is mere formality now. We did it.

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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Can anybody say something regarding the diameter of the nose, or of MMR/2032?


and did you not think there is short of hard point station. only -8


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> and did you not think there is short of hard point station. only -8



For what? Don't understand what you mean.


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## sudhir007

Tejas LSP-4 completes its successful maiden flight (above) at HAL airport in Bangalore on June 2. The flight lasted for 40 minutes. Gpr Capt Suneet Krishna piloted the aircraft. Interestingly, the same pilot had flown the first flight of PV-1 in 2003."This is fully equipped with IOC standards," says a thrilled ADA boss P.S. "More aircraft will join the fleet," says HAL chief Ashok Nayak. "We shall and we will," says Team NFTC.
*The aircraft flew at an altitude of 11 km, went supersonic and touched 1.1 Mach speed *with Test Director Gp Capt D. Chakravorty, guiding the pilot from the telemetry facility of NFTC. A chase aircraft was flown by the Chief Test Pilot of NFTC Gp Capt RR Tyagi with Wg Cdr Prabhu as the Test Director. The test flight was supervised by Air Cmde Rohit Varma, the Project Director (Flight Test) at NFTC. The flight was also witnessed by Cmde BS Prahar, NM who is the ACNS (Air) at Naval HQ.
*Team LCA will now gear up for the hot-weather trials along with the first flight of LSP-5.*
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> For what? Don't understand what you mean.


for weapon point of view


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> for weapon point of view



Yeah, but what has it to do with my question about the diameter of the nose, or radar?
I don't think there is a shortage of weapon stations, I think they could easily add to more at the wing tips, which wouldn't need any big re-designs of the wings, or fuselage. Just like other delta wing fighters has, like Mirage 2000, Gripen, EF, or Rafale.


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## satishkumarcsc

8 is more than enough for a light aircraft...how many more u need?


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## Sri

IndianArmy said:


> whats AOA?



Angle of Attack


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## shaktiman2010

Why we are designing same fighter(LCA) again and again.

Its stupid. They should be more ambitious and build variants of new designs.

There is no point in repeating same thing again and again(LSP-1 has same design as LSP-5).


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## satishkumarcsc

shaktiman2010 said:


> Why we are designing same fighter(LCA) again and again.
> 
> Its stupid. They should be more ambitious and build variants of new designs.
> 
> There is no point in repeating same thing again and again(LSP-1 has same design as LSP-5).



LSP stands for limited series *production* and these are improvements made to the prototype and it is the production model of LCA MK1


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## shaktiman2010

satishkumarcsc said:


> LSP stands for limited series *production* and these are improvements made to the prototype and it is the production model of LCA MK1



Basic design is same in LSP-1 to LSP-5 in all models.

So, why they are simply repeating same thing? Why waste so much time and effort on same design?

They should now start experimenting and build variants of new ambitious designs and airframes like Russians do.

For how many years more, we will keep doing LCA now? Will we ever begin more heavy-class airframes design and testing or (AMCA) types?


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## Dark Angel

shaktiman2010 said:


> Why we are designing same fighter(LCA) again and again.
> 
> Its stupid. They should be more ambitious and build variants of new designs.
> 
> There is no point in repeating same thing again and again(LSP-1 has same design as LSP-5).





*Standard practice around the world, will seem stupid to stupid people*


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## shaktiman2010

It looks like India will keep doing(over-doing) same LCA design for 10 more years and it will never take next leap into new heavy class(AMCA) of fighters.

Actually, going by timeline MRCA won't arrive before 2014 and there is full capability to roll out first AMCA by 2014. So, why not invest those 12Billion$ tax money in domestic sector?

Why Indian policy makers are so dumb?


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## Iggy

shaktiman2010 said:


> It looks like India will keep doing(over-doing) same LCA design for 10 more years and it will never take next leap into new heavy class(AMCA) of fighters.
> 
> Actually, going by timeline MRCA won't arrive before 2014 and there is full capability to roll out first AMCA by 2014. So, why not invest those 12Billion$ tax money in domestic sector?
> 
> Why Indian policy makers are so dumb?




Sir do your posting make any sense to you??do you really know what you are talking about??I dont know who is really dumb here..


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> 8 is more than enough for a light aircraft...how many more u need?



Actually it has only 7, because 1 is only for pods like the Litening targeting pod and in any A2G, or anti ship mission where it has to take 2 wing fuel tanks + 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles, it will leave only the centerline weapon station for A2G weapons. So only 1 bomb, or anti ship missile, but if you add the 2 wingtip stations instead for WVR missiles, LCA could carry 2 more bombs, or missiles on the wingstations.


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Actually it has only 7, because 1 is only for pods like the Litening targeting pod and in any A2G, or anti ship mission where it has to take 2 wing fuel tanks + 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles, it will leave only the centerline weapon station for A2G weapons. So only 1 bomb, or anti ship missile, but if you add the 2 wingtip stations instead for WVR missiles, LCA could carry 2 more bombs, or missiles on the wingstations.



Well LCA is a point defence aircraft with secondary ground attack role. LCA is in airforce terms called as cannon fodder. So it is mainly built for air interdiction and anyways it can use multiple racks for launching extra missiles. anyway the load is going to be constant at 4000kgs.


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## shaktiman2010

Dark Angel said:


> *Standard practice around the world, will seem stupid to stupid people*



If you follow the norms in world, you will always remain behind.

Start thinking on your own.


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## Iggy

sancho said:


> Actually it has only 7, because 1 is only for pods like the Litening targeting pod and in any A2G, or anti ship mission where it has to take 2 wing fuel tanks + 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles, it will leave only the centerline weapon station for A2G weapons. So only 1 bomb, or anti ship missile, but if you add the 2 wingtip stations instead for WVR missiles, LCA could carry 2 more bombs, or missiles on the wingstations.



Sacho yaar but LCA is mainly used for air defence only right??Is there any chance that A2G operations should be assigned to them?


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## Dash

self delete- already answred


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## shaktiman2010

seiko said:


> Sir do your posting make any sense to you??do you really know what you are talking about??I dont know who is really dumb here..



Why don't you answer my question rather than getting personal here?

The question was "Why they need to repeat same thing again and again? Even Russians don't keep repeating tests on same design for 12 years."

Its foolishness if one doesn't have confidence in graduating from LCA's basic design to new ambitious heavy-class fighter designs even after 10 years of testing.

Now, if you have some good reason for that, then answer it. Otherwise, only answer to that is, LCA design was imported and done in western labs. So, India lacks confidence to move to heavy-class fighter designs even in 2010.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well LCA is a point defence aircraft with secondary ground attack role. LCA is in airforce terms called as cannon fodder. So it is mainly built for air interdiction and anyways it can use multiple racks for launching extra missiles. anyway the load is going to be constant at 4000kgs.



No, LCA is meant as a 4. gen multi role fighter, which means it should offer some promising A2G capabilities too. Don't misunderstand me, I am not talking about additional heavy bomb loads to make him a strike fighter. But even for CAS it should be able to carry more than 2 fuel tanks and a single 250/500 Kg bomb right? And as I said, adding the wing tip stations is not a big deal, so won't need too much work. I hope to see them on the MK2.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

shaktiman2010 said:


> Why don't you answer my question rather than getting personal here?
> 
> The question was "Why they need to repeat same thing again and again? Even Russians don't keep repeating tests on same design for 12 years."
> 
> Its foolishness if one doesn't have confidence in graduating from LCA's basic design to new ambitious heavy-class fighter designs even after 10 years of testing.
> 
> Now, if you have some good reason for that, then answer it. Otherwise, only answer to that is, LCA design was imported and done in western labs. So, India lacks confidence to move to heavy-class fighter designs even in 2010.



Yes. We are doing it. It is called as MCA. The GSQR has just reached the ADA and they are going thorugh it. After which a design will be drawn. This will then undergo flight tests in wind tunnels and all other simulations before the tech demonstrator is built. This is how all aircrafts are made.


----------



## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> Now, if you have some good reason for that, then answer it. Otherwise, only answer to that is, LCA design was imported and done in western labs. So, India lacks confidence to move to heavy-class fighter designs even in 2010.



We still lack experience and knowledge!
How do you want to power MCA, if Kaveri engine is not even ready for LCA?
Which radar do you want to integrate in MCA, if LCA did not even have an indigenous one?
Which wepons should it carry, if Astra, or PGM are only under development so far?
Where do you think will the knowledge for stealth, SC, or TVC will come if we never developed and made these techs operational by our own?

Bottom line is, without LCA operational and with improvements, there will be no MCA at all!

Btw, LCA design was made in India, with western consultancy, not in western labs. Clear difference!


----------



## Iggy

shaktiman2010 said:


> Why don't you answer my question rather than getting personal here?
> 
> The question was "Why they need to repeat same thing again and again? Even Russians don't keep repeating tests on same design for 12 years."
> 
> Its foolishness if one doesn't have confidence in graduating from LCA's basic design to new ambitious heavy-class fighter designs even after 10 years of testing.
> 
> Now, if you have some good reason for that, then answer it. Otherwise, only answer to that is, LCA design was imported and done in western labs. So, India lacks confidence to move to heavy-class fighter designs even in 2010.




Sir you are saying like before passing kindergarten we should have our graduation ...we are newbie to this sector..we are devaloping systems by our own..Tejas is the first of its own kind devaloped by our country ..testing it again and again is to make it perfect..and as for heavy class we are going to devalop MCA..just have patience..


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> No, LCA is meant as a 4. gen multi role fighter, which means it should offer some promising A2G capabilities too. Don't misunderstand me, I am not talking about additional heavy bomb loads to make him a strike fighter. But even for CAS it should be able to carry more than 2 fuel tanks and a single 250/500 Kg bomb right? And as I said, adding the wing tip stations is not a big deal, so won't need too much work. I hope to see them on the MK2.



The IAF dosent think that way. What you are tryng to tell me is what IAF was trying to get 5 years before...Get a Mirage in a Gnat.


----------



## Dash

> No, LCA is meant as a 4. gen multi role fighter, which means it should offer some promising A2G capabilities too. Don't misunderstand me, I am not talking about additional heavy bomb loads to make him a strike fighter. But even for CAS it should be able to carry more than 2 fuel tanks and a single 250/500 Kg bomb right? And as I said, adding the wing tip stations is not a big deal, so won't need too much work. I hope to see them on the MK2.



Apart from targeting pod, will LCA need a Jammer pod?..


----------



## shaktiman2010

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yes. We are doing it. It is called as MCA. The GSQR has just reached the ADA and they are going thorugh it. After which a design will be drawn. This will then undergo flight tests in wind tunnels and all other simulations before the tech demonstrator is built. This is how all aircrafts are made.



Only difference is, IAF is confused and changes its GSQR every 3 years and forces slow-down of domestic aircrafts R&D.

Have you ever seen American airforce crying like a baby for delays in F-22 programme and asking the US government to dump it and import the planes?

Was IAF sleeping in its bed in last 12 years that they took so long to finalize GSQR for AMCA? Or, they were too busy with imported MRCA contract?


----------



## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> We still lack experience and knowledge!
> How do you want to power MCA, if Kaveri engine is not even ready for LCA?
> Which radar do you want to integrate in MCA, if LCA did not even have an indigenous one?
> Which wepons should it carry, if Astra, or PGM are only under development so far?
> Where do you think will the knowledge for stealth, SC, or TVC will come if we never developed and made these techs operational by our own?
> 
> Bottom line is, without LCA operational and with improvements, there will be no MCA at all!
> 
> Btw, LCA design was made in India, with western consultancy, not in western labs. Clear difference!



So much for the crimes of IAF and Indian babus import nexus!

And, why there is no will in MoD to acquire this experience domestically?

Why Kaveri was underfunded and neglected for so long?

Just compare how much % of defense funds USA invests into local R&D and compare it with how much Kaveri programme got. You will get the answer.

Problem is not that, we lack experience. Problem is that, India never wished to have LCA succeed. IAF today still is crying why we are wasting billions in LCA and not going for imports.

Attitude of slavery and love for imports is a reality. And, its not going to change.

One small example - This is 2010 and just compare % of budget that MoD has allotted to engine R&D nationally in private as well as public sector. Its a total shame that 5 times of same money is spent on MP fund.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> The IAF dosent think that way. What you are tryng to tell me is what IAF was trying to get 5 years before...Get a Mirage in a Gnat.



Why? Isn't it developed for Interception as well as for CAS and even for the anti ship role? Doesn't they want better A2G modes for MMR from Israeli radars? Doesn't the navy thinks it would be capable enough to be a carrier fighter (and at N-LCA you can see the disadvantage of less stations even more, because it has to carry fuel tanks even on A2A missions)?

So they surely think of LCA as a 4. gen multi role fighter and it surely can be that, these additonal stations would only make it more useful.


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## Dash

> Only difference is, IAF is confused and changes its GSQR every 3 years and forces slow-down of domestic aircrafts R&D.
> 
> Have you ever seen American airforce crying like a baby for delays in F-22 programme and asking the US government to dump it and import the planes?
> 
> Was IAF sleeping in its bed in last 12 years that they took so long to finalize GSQR for AMCA? Or, they were too busy with imported MRCA contract?



Agreed brother, but that is done and its past now..
Things are changing and situations are improving. We are living in a democratoc society. its no communism that you will hang all DRDO scientists coz they didnt deliver and suspend IAF officers for changing GSQR..

Did you ever appreciate HAL from jumping from a 2nd gen fighter to a straight 4th Gen?.

Things will take time here, DRDO is changing is modus operandi and HAL is busy getting the IOC so once that is done, they will start work on MCA and so on....its a part of process..


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## shaktiman2010

The reality is that, IAF is prejudiced to anything that comes from DRDO and HAL.

They will order a small number of LCA and allocate them to a non-critical role, just like Army did with Arjun which proved tobe superior to T-90.

Racism and prejudices against domestic products is pervasive in Armed forces and its not going to change.

The best example of that was, IAF changed its GSQR of LCA when it was near to IOC, and now IAF says, "We won't buy a lot of LCA in its current form. We need higher powered engines. Sorry, we are changing our original demands. Please design a new one."

Small number(40) of LCA will be bought as an insult to Indians and MRCA will proceed in big numbers. End of story.


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> So much for the crimes of IAF and Indian babus import nexus!
> 
> And, why there is no will in MoD to acquire this experience domestically?
> 
> Why Kaveri was underfunded and neglected for so long?
> 
> Just compare how much &#37; of defense funds USA invests into local R&D and compare it with how much Kaveri programme got. You will get the answer.
> 
> Problem is not that, we lack experience. Problem is that, India never wished to have LCA succeed. IAF today still is crying why we are wasting billions in LCA and not going for imports.
> 
> Attitude of slavery and love for imports is a reality. And, its not going to change.
> 
> One small example - This is 2010 and just compare % of budget that MoD has allotted to engine R&D nationally in private as well as public sector. Its a total shame that 5 times of same money is spent on MP fund.



You still making the same old claims, even if they does not make sense. Fundings alone won't give us high techs, do you really belive that more money would have made Kaveri ready yet? 
The US can fund their R&D because they are decades in front of us, we still need any JV, co-development, or ToT from MMRCA for example to improve. 
Simply paying for indigenous developments alone will lead us nowhere and that is what we should have learned from LCA development, because we still had to learn a lot of the basics.



shaktiman2010 said:


> Small number(40) of LCA will be bought as an insult to Indians and MRCA will proceed in big numbers. End of story.



What about the 100 - 150 MK2s? If 40 Mk1 was the end, why would the evaluate new engines, radars and other tecs?


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## shaktiman2010

Dash said:


> Did you ever appreciate HAL from jumping from a 2nd gen fighter to a straight 4th Gen?.



My appreciating HAL will solve the problems with corrupt IAF(Imported Air Force)?

We need a bigtime cleanup of corrupt decision makers in MoD and import lover IAF.


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## RPK

*Indias LCA flies in the configuration of Indian Air Force ready for delivery in December 2010 : Defense news*


The first flight of Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft, LSP-4 took place at HAL, Bangalore airport today.
India LCA flies in the configuration of Indian Air Force ready for delivery in December 2010
India LCA flies in the configuration of Indian Air Force ready for delivery in December 2010


The aircraft took off at 1110 hrs and landed forty minutes later, becoming the 10th Tejas aircraft flying.

The aircraft flew to an altitude of 11 km and went supersonic touching 1.1 Mach speed.

A major milestone in the direction of releasing the Tejas for the IAF planned for December 2010 it was the first flight of a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.

Speaking on the occasion, Mr PS Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore, said that the Tejas team is now heading to central India to carry out hot weather trials.

He expressed confidence that the aircraft would soon be flown by operational pilots of the defense services and he looked forward to that day.

Test Pilot Gp Capt Suneet Krishna, flew the aircraft with Test Director, Gp Capt D Chakravorty, guiding from the telemetry facility of National Flight Test Centre. The flight was also witnessed by ACNS (Air) at Naval HQ Cmde BS Prahar, NM.

The Indian Navy has a considerable stake in the programme, as they look to replace their Sea Harrier fleet, which is due to be phased out in due course.


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> You still making the same old claims, even if they does not make sense. Fundings alone won't give us high techs, do you really belive that more money would have made Kaveri ready yet?
> The US can fund their R&D because they are decades in front of us, we still need any JV, co-development, or ToT from MMRCA for example to improve.
> Simply paying for indigenous developments alone will lead us nowhere and that is what we should have learned from LCA development, because we still had to learn a lot of the basics.



Americans and Russians didn't become technology superpower because Aliens donated them technology.

Unless India funds engine R&D in serious way, there is no hope for Kaveri succeeding.

Lack of enough funding is a symtop of lack of political will for support to Kaveri.

Just compare how much serious Western countries are with respect to local R&D fundings.

And, yes. I still think that better political support and timely fundings to Kaveri would have made a BIG difference.

*I give you one more example how R&D is not taken seriously in India - ISRO's recent Cryogenic engine test failed and India lost GSAT worth 300 carores. This happened because ISRO decided not to build a gound live cryogenic test facility to save money. 

This is how things work in India. Things don't work in same way in USA or Russia. They are much more serious and confident with domestic initiatives in R&D while India still prefers importing help because Indian leadership is still old and backward-minded who don't realize importance of projects like Kaveri and cryogenic engines(which failed).*


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## farhan_9909

heard tat Mk2 will hav Eurofighter engine or f-18Sh engine

bt first i am confuse here that why nt Kaveri for Mk2.
bt leave it

my question is this if india want to install new engine in LCA MK2
so it will also need to redesign the the airframe for the engine and testing many years 

and atlast it will take 5 years for india to do it?
am i right?


wher as JF-17 for ws-13 is already redesigned and is going on testing..


thanx in advance


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> What about the 100 - 150 MK2s? If 40 Mk1 was the end, why would the evaluate new engines, radars and other tecs?



You still don't understand how import lobby works in MoD.

IAF deliberately delayed GSQR for LCA-MK-II. By the time, DRDO comes out with Mk-II version, IAF will start pushing for upgrading MRCA order from 125 to 250 planes and their reasoning will be simple - "LCA-MK-II is still in prototype and testing phase with no wartime experience. So please let us import a proven design like MRCA. That will save time and efforts. Otherwise, India will lose wars."

You have no idea about how IAF plays a big role in screwing domestic R&D. Wait, 5 years, you will see their game.

By the way, by 2016 requirements of IAF will change drastically. They will require atleast 300 planes of LCA-MK-II calibre. Clearly, they won't say that now because if they did, then our domestic players(DRDO,HAL) will ready themselves in advance and IAF will loose their chance to import.

That's how it works. IAF always delayes their projections so that domestic R&D always remains behind and import wins.

Recent army officer's honeytrap blowup is a big shame for credibility of Indian armed forces. Who IAF protects? India or Russian weapon exporters?


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> heard tat Mk2 will hav Eurofighter engine or f-18Sh engine
> 
> bt first i am confuse here that why nt Kaveri for Mk2.
> bt leave it
> 
> my question is this if india want to install new engine in LCA MK2
> so it will also need to redesign the the airframe for the engine and testing many years
> 
> and atlast it will take 5 years for india to do it?
> am i right?
> 
> 
> wher as JF-17 for ws-13 is already redesigned and is going on testing..
> 
> 
> thanx in advance



Kaveri is under development just like WS 13, both will years to be mature and proven, but unlike PAF, or PLAAF which might be ready to take the risk with unproven engines, IAF wanted proven engines and will go for those which needs the least changes.
The US engine has the same diameter as the present engine in MK1, but mostlikely will need bigger air intakes. The EF engine instead is smaller and is said to be integrated without any airframe re-designs.
Kaveri engine will only be integrated into LCA if it is mature enough, or directly into future MCA.


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## Tejas-MkII

farhan_9909 said:


> heard tat Mk2 will hav Eurofighter engine or f-18Sh engine
> 
> bt first i am confuse here that why nt Kaveri for Mk2.
> bt leave it
> 
> my question is this if india want to install new engine in LCA MK2
> so it will also need to redesign the the airframe for the engine and testing many years
> 
> and atlast it will take 5 years for india to do it?
> am i right?
> 
> 
> *wher as JF-17 for ws-13 is already redesigned and is going on testing..*
> 
> 
> thanx in advance



Dude if u look at the specification of RD-33 and ws-13 they are almost same length,diameter,also increase of thrust is not much mere 5KN.

but the EJ and GE-414 offer for LCA have thrust around 100.

GE-414 EPE:115KN -without much change in length and specification.
Improved version of EJ:110KN.

EJ is more suited to LCA because we don't have to do much changes,unlike 414.

But yes u r right MK2 will be come around 2014.


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> You still don't understand how import lobby works in MoD.
> 
> IAF deliberately delayed GSQR for LCA-MK-II. By the time, DRDO comes out with Mk-II version, IAF will start pushing for upgrading MRCA order from 125 to 250 planes and their reasoning will be simple - "LCA-MK-II is still in prototype and testing phase with no wartime experience. So please let us import a proven design like MRCA. That will save time and efforts. Otherwise, India will lose wars."



If that would be true, IAF had the chance with the first MRCA competitions. They could have easily gone with foreign fighters and scrap LCA, but that is not the case right? More money was invested in LCA and indigenous techs and MMRCA will still only replace one parts of the Mig 21.
Also if IAF would be against indigenous developments like you say, how come the go for numbers of Dhruv, LCH, LOH, Saras, indigenous trainer and UAVs, SAMs and other weapns?
You theory clearly has no base, because IAF is clearly doing the exact opposite and is pushing our defense industry, but of course they are not stupid enough to rely only on them. Just like they don't want to rely so much on Russia anymore and diversify the fleet with western counterparts too.


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## jha

is there really need for such fights...come on yaar...today is a great day for HAL>..lets hope many such days follow...


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## Chaluboy

Took Place today - 







Courtesy Livefist:


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## Haanzo

Tejas LSP-4 completes its successful maiden flight (above) at HAL airport in Bangalore on June 2. *The flight lasted for 40 minutes*. Gpr Capt Suneet Krishna piloted the aircraft. Interestingly, the same pilot had flown the first flight of PV-1 in 2003.*"This is fully equipped with IOC standards,"* says a thrilled ADA boss P.S. *"More aircraft will join the fleet,*" says HAL chief Ashok Nayak. "We shall and we will," says Team NFTC.
*The aircraft flew at an altitude of 11 km, went supersonic and touched 1.1 Mach speed* with Test Director Gp Capt D. Chakravorty, guiding the pilot from the telemetry facility of NFTC. A chase aircraft was flown by the Chief Test Pilot of NFTC Gp Capt RR Tyagi with Wg Cdr Prabhu as the Test Director. The test flight was supervised by Air Cmde Rohit Varma, the Project Director (Flight Test) at NFTC. The flight was also witnessed by Cmde BS Prahar, NM who is the ACNS (Air) at Naval HQ.
*Team LCA will now gear up for the hot-weather trials along with the first flight of LSP-5. *

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Aerospace & Defence Blog With A Difference By Anantha Krishnan M.: IOC WITHIN SIGHT! Final IAF configuration LCA LSP-4 maiden 40-minute flight successful; Grp Capt Suneet Krishna goes supersonic; MMR, new avionics software, ECS

today i got buzzed by a fighter in yellow primer in b-lore ..was confused initially but here is the answer for that puzzle 
now this is what im talkin about ....after going painfully slow towards the IOC this aircraft will be the closest to the production spec ....and LSP-5 will make things lot easier and definitely speed up the process and by 2011 we can achieve IOC great going HAL 

this is the 10 aircraft to fly and there a re only 8 flying 
TD-1, 2 (retired) 
PV-1,2,3,5
LSP-1,2,3,4

JAI HIND

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## Haanzo

LCA Tejas finally gets Radar! - Defence Aviation

Indias most ambitious military program to build an indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) reached a major milestone on 23rd April; Friday when it first test flew a radar onboard. The LSP-3 model of the aircraft carried a radar inside its nose for the first time. This comes more than 9 years after it first took to skies. The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) described the radar as Multi-mode radar.

Defence Aviation has learnt that the radar was a Hybrid version of Israels Elta EL/M-2032 which is currently in service with Indian Navy on its Sea Harrier fleet. *The radar is mechanically steered and most components are of Indian origin. The processor of the radar is of Israeli origin similar to that found on the EL/M-2032*. There was some confusion regarding the type of radar but it has now been confirmed that it is Doppler pulse radar.

The achievement is significant as this bring the LCA-Tejas closer to receiving the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC). All the necessary tests to receive the IOC are done and now only tests related to the radar remain. Its expected that these will be completed in 6 months and after that the LCA will enter service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which has ordered 40 units of LCAs in IOC configuration. The first aircraft is expected to enter service during the second quarter of 2011.

Meanwhile the LSP-4 is undergoing ground trails and will start flying in a month (Which it has today) *followed by LSP-5 which should start flying a week later* The recent test flight also had a new air data processor, Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and a communication and navigation system. The flight lasted for some 52 minutes of which the LSP-3 cruised at Mach 0.8 for some 40 minutes.

The Hybrid MMR wont be seen on the future versions of the aircraft apart from the first 40 as the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) is working on a much advance Active Electronically Scanner Array radar (AESA) which be much superior to the Hybrid MMR. *The new AESA radar is necessary for the Tejas to receive the Final operations clearance (FOC)*.

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## hal-fgfa

anyone know when TEJAS fly with Aesa radar ???


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## nForce

keep those birds flying!!and keep some more pics comin'


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## Haanzo

hal-fgfa said:


> anyone know when TEJAS fly with Aesa radar ???



see post no-2
* and guys keep in mind lsp-4 is the second aircraft to fly with the radar*

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## Vikram Morya

am waiting for this beast to come in IAF service completely

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## Dash

> anyone know when TEJAS fly with Aesa radar ???


That might be ready for flight testing in 2 years I guess, the program went into trouble with dissat results, foreign help is saught. By the time in 2014, when LCA MK2 will get inducted, it will fly with the AESA by india....at least there is a big possibility I say.


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## Kinetic

hal-fgfa said:


> anyone know when TEJAS fly with Aesa radar ???



The first 40 Tejas will have current MMR while rest will get AESA. Its already under development by LRDE (DRDO). Project launched in November 2008. It will be fitted on the Tejas in 2014. Its an X-band AESA.


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## indian,100%indian

i wanna see this birds flying in air force color as soon as possible.


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## KEETARP

Great , just came to know about LSP4 taking to skies . 
Congratz to whole of HAL/DRDO/ADA guys , you deserve a hell of party tonight . 
Plz do keep final booze for LSP5 and IOC party . 
And yes all Indian members out here - great feat to be proud of , enjoy

And now imp work ahead , integrating R73/Python + R77/MICA to LCA radar and complete flight testing before Dec .


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## Chanakyaa

I simply love its looks.
It really looks a Dangerous Interceptor.

"Dekhan Me Chotan Laage Ghaav Karee Gambhir.."

_[ Looks Small Yet its Deadly ]_

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## Tejas-MkII

http://www.lca-tejas.org/variants.html

According to this site, LSP-4 is for CMDS trial which is as much as important as Hybrid-MMR because it will test the EW system,RWR,probably R-118(RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS(MAWS+LWS)).

And LSP-5 is for weapon testing.

Also LSP-6 for AoA


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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> GE-414 EPE:115KN -without much change in length and specification.
> Improved version of EJ:110KN.



Both are not developed and would require more time and money, what we can expect now is 98kN from the GE 414 and 90-95 kN from EJ 200. 



Tejas-MkII said:


> http://www.lca-tejas.org/variants.html
> 
> According to this site, LSP-4 is for CMDS trial which is as much as important as Hybrid-MMR because it will test the EW system,RWR,probably R-118(RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS(MAWS+LWS)).
> 
> And LSP-5 is for weapon testing.
> 
> Also LSP-6 for AoA



So what do you think, when can we expect the end of this testing and the start of the serial production?


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## Nishan_101

Hi everyone, i wanted to say that (especially to indians) that india should concentrate on doing things with others rather than believing upon them. I also wanted to mention that (as i am not an expert) instead of LCA they should develop a much bigger fighter like twin engine one like the Rafael or Typhoon or even a single engine fighter like F-16's/J-10 with different versions like carrier borne versions also and try to develop separately an AJT rather than LCA twin seater. they must have develop jointly major components with other countries like E.U or russia or israel like: 
1. A complete set of Avionics.
2. Weapons of different class (that even can be used for other services like can be placed on Frigates or Air Defence systems).
3. Engine.
4. Taking help in designing the air frame.


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## IndianArmy

@ Nishan, you have a valid point, But India has been doing that.... And That too without affecting Our Project LCA..... We are jointly developing with other countries and aswell as Doing a bit of R&D....

And LCA is developed By the experiance we Gain from the Joint ventures, and, India would take up MCA as and when we gain much experiance In the R&D of Aircrafts... Dont worry India is doing just fine...

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## Trichy

Nishan_101 said:


> Hi everyone, i wanted to say that (especially to indians) that india should concentrate on doing things with others rather than believing upon them. I also wanted to mention that (as i am not an expert) instead of LCA they should develop a much bigger fighter like twin engine one like the Rafael or Typhoon or even a single engine fighter like F-16's/J-10 with different versions like carrier borne versions also and try to develop separately an AJT rather than LCA twin seater. they must have develop jointly major components with other countries like E.U or russia or israel like:
> 1. A complete set of Avionics.
> 2. Weapons of different class (that even can be used for other services like can be placed on Frigates or Air Defence systems).
> 3. Engine.
> 4. Taking help in designing the air frame.



Don't worry friend we already do the JV in 5th Gen Fighter, MTV, Barak 8 and lot more here with other countries so don't worry about us...


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## indushek

Really happy about this test flight, hope to see the IOC soon


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## uday

Great, way to go LCA!!!
good thing about LCA is it never crashed, unlike j10!!!

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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> Both are not developed and would require more time and money, what we can expect now is 98kN from the GE 414 and 90-95 kN from EJ 200.
> 
> 
> 
> So what do you think, when can we expect the end of this testing and the start of the serial production?



Regarding engine, things will clear after the deal which should haapen by now but no news till now.

I think we all know that IOC will clear by end of this year and i heard first aircraft will join by II qtr of next year.

And if all goes well then we have full sqd of LCA by end of next year.


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## farhan_9909

sancho said:


> Kaveri is under development just like WS 13, both will years to be mature and proven, but unlike PAF, or PLAAF which might be ready to take the risk with unproven engines, IAF wanted proven engines and will go for those which needs the least changes.
> The US engine has the same diameter as the present engine in MK1, but mostlikely will need bigger air intakes. The EF engine instead is smaller and is said to be integrated without any airframe re-designs.
> Kaveri engine will only be integrated into LCA if it is mature enough, or directly into future MCA.



yess both are in development stages..bt the complex thing is to redesign the airframe for the engine and then testing and many things which are very complex

and i dnt think so LCA MK2 development is started.
wher as jf-17 engine testing started,IRST integration,300KG composite material usage in the airframe and in future in great number.
the only thing is remaining AESA radar...will see china will come with AESA or frm the italy vixen 1000ES.


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## farhan_9909

Tejas-MkII said:


> Dude if u look at the specification of RD-33 and ws-13 they are almost same length,diameter,also increase of thrust is not much mere 5KN.
> 
> but the EJ and GE-414 offer for LCA have thrust around 100.
> 
> GE-414 EPE:115KN -without much change in length and specification.
> Improved version of EJ:110KN.
> 
> EJ is more suited to LCA because we don't have to do much changes,unlike 414.
> 
> But yes u r right MK2 will be come around 2014.




well improving an engien doesnt take much time.and we will only put it in jf if it has 100Kn power.soem site suggest that ws-13A will hav upto 100KN thrust.
and non of the two possible engine LCA has upto 100KN engine.
and full scale production of LCA will be started by around 2013.becasue f-17 IOC was in 2008 and serial production in 2009 july.so Timesofindia reported that LCA Mk2 will be around 2018..


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## Tejas-MkII

farhan_9909 said:


> well improving an engien doesnt take much time.and we will only put it in jf if it has 100Kn power.soem site suggest that ws-13A will hav upto 100KN thrust.
> and non of the two possible engine LCA has upto 100KN engine.
> and full scale production of LCA will be started by around 2013.becasue f-17 IOC was in 2008 and serial production in 2009 july.so Timesofindia reported that LCA Mk2 will be around 2018..



You should look things in both ways.

You were saying improving the engine doesn't take much time

and other way u was so sure that two possible engine for LCA were not 100KN.

Yes now they are not but what if GE and europe offer extended verion of their and as u only said this modification much time,so there would not be any delay.. rite.

I donn't know from where u got that date please provide the link and it will be no surprise it will come from TOI,these day they r making habbit of publishing BS article.

Also please elaborate this line bit more



> becasue f-17 IOC was in 2008 and serial production in 2009 july.so Timesofindia reported that LCA Mk2 will be around 2018


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## CONNAN

*India&#8217;s LCA flies in the configuration of Indian Air Force ready for delivery in December 2010*

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?n=India%E2%80%99s%20LCA%20flies%20in%20the%20configuration%20of%20Indian%20Air%20Force%20ready%20for%20delivery%20in%20December%202010&id=4577

he first flight of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft, LSP-4 took place at HAL, Bangalore airport today.

The aircraft took off at 1110 hrs and landed forty minutes later, becoming the 10th Tejas aircraft flying.

The aircraft flew to an altitude of 11 km and went supersonic touching 1.1 Mach speed.

A major milestone in the direction of releasing the Tejas for the IAF planned for December 2010 it was the first flight of a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.

Speaking on the occasion, Mr PS Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore, said that the Tejas team is now heading to central India to carry out hot weather trials.

He expressed confidence that the aircraft would soon be flown by operational pilots of the defense services and he looked forward to that day.

Test Pilot Gp Capt Suneet Krishna, flew the aircraft with Test Director, Gp Capt D Chakravorty, guiding from the telemetry facility of National Flight Test Centre. The flight was also witnessed by ACNS (Air) at Naval HQ Cmde BS Prahar, NM.

The Indian Navy has a considerable stake in the programme, as they look to replace their Sea Harrier fleet, which is due to be phased out in due course.


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## shaktiman2010

LCA is more deadly than Jaguars in service.

If only IAF had shown some confidence and funded LCA properly, things would have been faster and different today. 

And, on top of that, IAF delayed MK-II GSQR by 4 years. Due to confused minded IAF top brass, now DRDO has to redesign a new version of LCA because original calculations of IAF for LCA went wrong and now they want a higher power version of it.

Anyways, this is not only example of IAF's blunder. They already committed a blunder by choosing faulty British Hawk AJT. The whole fleet is almost in grounded position and is of no use. Billions of dollar is wasted on a junk just because elite minded IAF hates pot belly DRDO scientists and they love shiney good looking imported products.

Its a shame really when your own people(IAF) don't support you.


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## IndianArmy

LCA LSP4.... I dont see we are far away from IOC, Are we???


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## Jazzbot

gratz indians.. nice bird

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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> If that would be true, IAF had the chance with the first MRCA competitions. They could have easily gone with foreign fighters and scrap LCA, but that is not the case right? More money was invested in LCA and indigenous techs and MMRCA will still only replace one parts of the Mig 21.
> Also if IAF would be against indigenous developments like you say, how come the go for numbers of Dhruv, LCH, LOH, Saras, indigenous trainer and UAVs, SAMs and other weapns?
> You theory clearly has no base, because IAF is clearly doing the exact opposite and is pushing our defense industry, but of course they are not stupid enough to rely only on them. Just like they don't want to rely so much on Russia anymore and diversify the fleet with western counterparts too.



Are you kidding? LOL.

IAF did everything to badmouth and kill LCA project from time to time. MRCA tender came out only because IAF succeeded in delaying LCA fundings from time to time.

And, by the way, since when IAF funded LCA? 

The whole LCA project from 1989 to 2008 was funded by taxpayers money and not IAF. IAF had no stakes in LCA project.

It was Indian Navy(IN) who showed some brains and saved the LCA project when IAF was about to close the LCA completely by pushing aggressively for full import of MRCA.

IN's interest in LCA gave some breathing space to crucial R&D phase of LCA project leaders and public outcry also forced IAF to order a small number of 20 LCA's to save their face in public.

IAF is known as "Imported Air Force" and there is a good reason for that. IAF was "forced" to invest in LCA project only in 2009 year-end when PM stepped in and slapped the IAF for their prejudiced against DRDO and domestic R&D.

IAF's love for imports is well known. It was IAF who forced HAL to close Aircraft R&D division during 1970's and India never recovered from that blunder.

Thanks to Indian Navy who has some brains and understand the importance of domestic R&D. They did a great thing by salvaging LCA from import-hungry morons in IAF.

Also, it was IAF who was badmouthing DRDO scientists in public all the time rather than assisting them solve the GSQR issues rather than delaying the project by deliberately changing GSQR from time to time. 

Have you ever seen US Airforce acting in such childish, amateur manner and badmouthing american scientists in Lackheed Martin, in public? They don't act in such way even when their aircrafts crash and R&D is delayed by 4-5 years.

But, you can't expect same maturity from IAF which is full of elite minded fools who think DRDO is some slave who should deliver 4th Generation aircrafts on half the price they pay for imported planes.

What a shame!! I have just one thing to say for them. "Aek Thoo" on IAF.


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## shaktiman2010

farhan_9909 said:


> yess both are in development stages..bt *the complex thing is to redesign the airframe for the engine and then testing and many things* which are very complex
> 
> and *i dnt think so LCA MK2 development is started*.
> wher as jf-17 engine testing started,IRST integration,300KG composite material usage in the airframe and in future in great number.
> the only thing is remaining AESA radar...will see china will come with AESA or frm the italy vixen 1000ES.



True.

Thanks to fools in IAF, LCA MK-II will have a delay of 4 years now.

Problem is that, IAF was sleeping from last 8 years and now they suddenly realized that something went wrong with their original GSQR(requirement) of LCA. When it became clear that LCA is near IOC and IOC is now certain, IAF suddenly woke up from its sleep and started yelling, "Oh my God! we are so sorry, guys. Our original design requirements(GSQR) for LCA were wrong. Now we think 90KN engine aircraft is of no use to us. Please guys, now redesign that whole thing again and give us 110KN engine aircraft".

This is how IAF kills a successful project. And, in the meantime when DRDO will repeat whole process and come up with new version, IAF will can now easily say - "Hey guys!, see DRDO is already so slow in making LCA. So now, we should import 250 MRCA instead of just 125 to save time. Why waste money on DRDO which is so slow?"

Cunning IAF screwed LCA once again. Just watch the game played by import hungry corrupt IAF.


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## shaktiman2010

*Its very interesting that same thing happened with home-made Arjun MBT project. When Arjun project came out successful, Army came out with similar excuse - "Sorry guys, we can't buy Arjun now. Our GSQR have changed. Now, we want a light tank. We don't want heavy category tanks anymore."*

Same thing has happened with LCA now. Exactly when LCA is near IOC, IAF suddenly changes its tune and says, "Sorry guys, we can't buy this version of LCA. Our requirements have changed. We need 10&#37; more powered engines otherwise LCA will loose war."

And, then Army issues Light tank tender to foreign companies and IAF got a reason to push for double MRCA orders in near future from foreign.

*The question here is that, IAF knew very well that LCA is near IOC even 5 years ago then, why they came out with new requirements suddenly now? Was IAF sleeping since 5 years? Why they never told LCA designers before that they won't accept this design? Or, this was their deliberate plan to keep the DRDO designers out of loop and give them a surprise?
*
Its clear that IAF did this deliberately so that DRDO didn't get time to begin work on MK-II version 5 years before because IAF played this as a googly to delay their whole efforts.

Pattern is very clear behind how domestic projects are discouraged and paid shabbily while imports are given all priorities under the excuse of "wartime".

Everyone lives happily ever after and Indian public is fooled easily. DRDO cries as usual, the victim of bias from corrupt as$holes in Indian Armed services and import lobby in MoD.

American Armed forces uses war-excuses to push domestic defence R&D fundings. While Indian Armed forces uses war-excuses to push weapon imports. What a shame!


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> yess both are in development stages..bt the complex thing is to redesign the airframe for the engine and then testing and many things which are very complex



As I told you, there is no re-designing needed, because the engines under evaluation have the same diameter, or even less (WS13 is bigger than RD93). They will fit inside without a problem, all it might need are bigger air intakes. 



farhan_9909 said:


> and i dnt think so LCA MK2 development is started.
> wher as jf-17 engine testing started,IRST integration,300KG composite material usage in the airframe and in future in great number.
> the only thing is remaining AESA radar...will see china will come with AESA or frm the italy vixen 1000ES.



You are mixing JF 17 batch 2 and 3 up here!

The next 100 JF 17 will be the 2nd batch, but these will not have IRST, AESA radar and WS13 only if it is mature enough without the reported quality problems.
The 3rd batch of JF 17, which is far away of beeing developed,will get these techs and for sure that engine too, but for now that is nothing more than speculation only, just like the 100kN. 

PAF will go for 50+100 4. gen JF 17 with multi mode radars, whereas IAF only wants 40 4.gen LCA alongside its upgraded Mirage 2000 and Mig 29s. The main focus is on LCA MK2 and those techs are already under evaluation!


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## shaktiman2010

IAF is only trying to delay LCA project. The fact is that, IAF hates buying home-made planes and they love imported aircrafts.

If IAF was serious about LCA then they would have told DRDO about MK-II requirements years ago and lot of years would been saved.

Now, expectedly MoD is taking years to decide on engines for MK-II version of LCA and this will surely help IAF to push for doubling MRCA orders. Because, unless MoD clears new engine contract, they won't arrive anytime soon and DRDO can't even begin work on building, testing MK-II version of LCA.

IAF has won once again in murdering domestic R&D by showing their careless nature towards domestic R&D.

*(IAF+ imports lobby in MoD) = Delay of all efforts in DRDO for domestic aircraft R&D.*


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> Are you kidding? LOL.
> 
> IAF did everything to badmouth and kill LCA project from time to time. MRCA tender came out only because IAF succeeded in delaying LCA fundings from time to time...



The funny thing is, that you think IN saved LCA and IAF is importing only. Then why in your opinion IN ordered 45 Mig 29K and send out an RFI for 40 more foreign carrier fighters, but ordered only *6 N-LCAs*? 

And you still have not answered to why IAF keeps pushing indigenous developed aircrafts, weapons and techs, instead of simply buying foreign counterparts like you believe?

IAF and IN are clearly the forces that wants and believes in indigenous arms, unlike IA, but as long as these can't offer comparable things, we still have to buy foreign arms to. 
You can't compare our defense industry with the US, the European, or Russian, they are decades in front of us and not like you believe because of money only. They are at a different level that we try to catch up with and we are on a good way, but still will need quit some time to get their.


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> The funny thing is, that you think IN saved LCA and IAF is importing only. Then why in your opinion IN ordered 45 Mig 29K and send out an RFI for 40 more foreign carrier fighters, but ordered only *6 N-LCAs*?



Exactly my point!

Why Indian Navy showed so much faith in LCA when they needed only a few on their Aircraft Carrier since you can't have 100 LCA on a aircraft carrier which we don't have currently.(Gorshkov will arrive in 2013).

*While on other hand, IAF needed 100+ LCA. But, it was Navy who put their money in LCA project. It was surprising that IAF whose needs were bigger wasn't even interested in funding the project because they were too busy reading foreign weapon company pamphlets.

So, it was very praiseworthy that Navy showed serious support for just 8 NLCA and funded aircraft R&D with their own budget. Thanks to them for sensible decision.

While this was expected from morons in IAF, but they had no interest in funding and supporting LCA project. Rather they changed their GSQR just when LCA is near IOC and rejected their original plan of buying 100+ LCA.*

And, now they are forcing DRDO to re-do whole design and make 110KN version because morons in IAF are ready to settle with faulty imported AJT Hawk but they don't want a successful indigenous LCA because they invented new reasons to reject LCA and rejected full induction of LCA just to embarrass DRDO.

IAF's only wish is that DRDO should not walk away with a win because that embarrasses IAF because it was IAF who has consistently called LCA a failure in public and it shown IAF down now that LCA is near IOC. So, to protect their own egos, IAF is doing everything(from changing GSQR, delaying engine selection) to show DRDO down.

What a shame for IAF! They have billions for crappy british Hawk AJT which crashed on first flight but no money for home-made 4th Generation aircraft R&D. Shame shame!!



sancho said:


> And you still have not answered to why IAF keeps pushing indigenous developed aircrafts, weapons and techs, instead of simply buying foreign counterparts like you believe?
> 
> IAF and IN are clearly the forces that wants and believes in indigenous arms, unlike IA, but as long as these can't offer comparable things, we still have to buy foreign arms to.
> You can't compare our defense industry with the US, the European, or Russian, they are decades in front of us and not like you believe because of money only. They are at a different level that we try to catch up with and we are on a good way, but still will need quit some time to get their.



Talks prove nothing. Actions show what you are.

IAF has proved by their actions, they are one amateur and foolish organisation who can't do anything better than whining on street about their own mess and making world laugh on them.


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## shaktiman2010

Its also interesting to note that, Indian Navy is also funding several Sonar projects with their own money.

Has IAF ever invested in any Radar R&D project domestically?

IAF is a hypocrite organisation which talks, but does nothing other than imports.

Also, IAF was stupid enough to conduct a public survery on - "Why youths are running away from joining IAF?"

LOL. If fools had brains, they would know the answer. Spoonism rules in IAF.


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## Dark Angel

There hasnt been a official MOD and IAF statement so why are everyone jumping their guns


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## shaktiman2010

Dark Angel said:


> There hasnt been a official MOD and IAF statement so why are everyone jumping their guns



Its official now. IAF has rejected current LCA design for mass induction(100+) which was their original requirement. Now, they are demanding DRDO to redesign whole thing and make a new LCA version(MK-II) with 110KN engine.

Also, MoD is delaying 100KN engine selection by years. Soon, IAF will push for dooubling of MRCA orders under the excuse of delay in LCA Mk-II.

Import lobby in MoD and IAF working hand in hand to screw mass induction(100+) of LCA into Indian airforce. 40 LCA have been ordered to save IAF's face in public.


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## sudhir007

way back in 2000 report from TOI

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## Haanzo

shaktiman2010 said:


> LCA is more deadly than Jaguars in service.
> 
> If only IAF had shown some confidence and funded LCA properly, things would have been faster and different today.
> the only replacement for the jag is the heay contender from MRCA ,the gripen and f-16 wont cut it and lca wont even come close the payload characteristics of the jag and lca are completely different and the airframe is designed for a different purpose altogether
> And, on top of that, IAF delayed MK-II GSQR by 4 years. Due to confused minded IAF top brass, now DRDO has to redesign a new version of LCA because original calculations of IAF for LCA went wrong and now they want a higher power version of it.
> DRDO DOES NOT DESIGN AIRCRAFTS FOR GODS SAKE ...i know you are keen on this subject but a basic knowledge wont do any harm ...so start digging up websites and news articles
> Anyways, this is not only example of IAF's blunder. They already committed a blunder by choosing faulty British Hawk AJT. The whole fleet is almost in grounded position and is of no use. Billions of dollar is wasted on a junk just because elite minded IAF hates pot belly DRDO scientists and they love shiney good looking imported products.
> who said the whole fleet is grounded ...HAWK IS NOT JUNK ...its the best trainer aircraft out there ..... and stop associating DRDO with aircrafts
> Its a shame really when your own people(IAF) don't support you.iaf is our own no doubt ....its like a kid with an impressive wish list but its mom (politicos) wont buy it anything ...instead it wants to spend on jewelery (vvip chopper deal ,cars etc.etc ......)



*
so it wont do any good for you if you post like this ...it will just increase your post count *


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## Vasily Zaytsev

I don't understand one thing if any of the defence products is not inducted we either blame the armed forces or the DRDO/HAL.

See worldover, there have been many defence products produced by defence manufacturers those never saw the light of the day as a successfull product or were rejected by their respective defence forces.

Many leading defense companies have written off billions of dollars of development cost as sunk cost.

Whats about being so much hyper if we fail in some products or are rejected by armed forces.


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## Haanzo

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> I don't understand one thing if any of the defence products is not inducted we either blame the armed forces or the DRDO/HAL.
> 
> See worldover, there have been many defence products produced by defence manufacturers those never saw the light of the day as a successfull product or were rejected by their respective defence forces.
> 
> Many leading defense companies have written off billions of dollars of development cost as sunk cost.
> 
> Whats about being so much hyper if we fail in some products or are rejected by armed forces.



most of them here are young bloods ...they expect immediate results .....like fast food ,internet ,everything's available when you wish ..they have not seen their kids grow up ....the effort you put into your kids ....it takes time for them to realise what they are capable of then alone your hardwork bears fruit....these young people dont understand anything these days

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## Cent4

India's first operational-standard Tejas light combat aircraft has made its maiden flight from Bangalore, reaching a speed of Mach 1.1.
The Aeronautical Development Agency's (ADA) fourth limited series production aircraft made its debut on 2 June and reached an altitude of 36,000ft (11,000m).
India's Defence Research and Development Organisation says LSP-4 is the first Tejas to have been produced in the configuration that will be inducted into Indian air force service.
The air force has so far committed to buying 40 Mk 1 examples of the Tejas, which is being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics. Initial operational clearance should be received by December 2010.
The ADA says its nine previous development examples of the Tejas had completed 1,375 test flights by 31 May.


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## Dark Angel

shaktiman2010 said:


> Its official now. IAF has rejected current LCA design for mass induction(100+) which was their original requirement. Now, they are demanding DRDO to redesign whole thing and make a new LCA version(MK-II) with 110KN engine.
> 
> Also, MoD is delaying 100KN engine selection by years. Soon, IAF will push for dooubling of MRCA orders under the excuse of delay in LCA Mk-II.
> 
> Import lobby in MoD and IAF working hand in hand to screw mass induction(100+) of LCA into Indian airforce. 40 LCA have been ordered to save IAF's face in public.





*Can u provide a link *


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## gogbot

Dark Angel said:


> *Can u provide a link *



He is just cynic. 

He only looks at things and makes judgments.

He clings onto a negative and expands it till it encompasses the whole issue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

IAF wanted more thrust for the LCA , they were merely expanding on the requirement. They also demanded AESA radar as a mimium  

Their standards for the LCA are always high, 

The reason they are buying 40 LCA mk 1's now is to show their stake and investment in the project.

IAF has also shown similar support to the LCH program.

MOD is delaying the selection of a new engine , because i believe there is internal politics being played out currently between the MoD and GTRE . No doubt the question of weather to develop the engine or import, is still being fought over.


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> Exactly my point!
> 
> Why Indian Navy showed so much faith in LCA when they needed only a few on their Aircraft Carrier since you can't have 100 LCA



Buddy, are you convincing yourself with this, because the reality looks different! 

*The early plans*


> The naval prototypes are designated has NP-1 and NP-2; these are respectively the two-seat and single-seat variants. A design permitting operation from a carrier deck with a 14º ski-jump was approved in early 1999 and the final design was frozen , and development go-ahead was granted in mid-2002, although major funding was not released until early 2003...
> 
> ...*navy is expected to order 20 plus aircraft with 60 more in future orders*



http://www.lca-tejas.org/navaltejas.html


*November 2008*


> The LCA naval variant, which is to be used by the Navy in an air defence role from its carriers, will jockey for space on the deck with the MiG-29Ks that India is buying from Russia. It will be a replacement for the British-made Sea Harrier jump jets currently used by the Navy. *The Navy has already placed intent to procure 40 aircraft.*



The Hindu : National : Tejas naval variant to take to the skies in 2009


*September 2009*



> Indian Navy has okay-ed the placement of an order for *six* Naval Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (N-LCA)



Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme | India Defence


*December 2009*


> Looking for an enhanced presence, the Navy is planning to buy a state-of-the-art, multi-role, new generation carrier-based fighter aircraft. And in pursuance of this, the Navy has sent out a request for information (RFI) to some of the worlds leading aircraft manufacturers.



ASIAN DEFENCE: India Navy Issues a RFI to EADS, Boeing, Saab and Dassault for New Carrier-Based Fighter Aircraft


*March 2010*


> Russia and India have signed a $1.5-billion contract on the supplies of 29 more MiG-29K carrier-based fighter jets to New Delhi, the head of the Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG said on Friday.



India Orders 29 More MiG-29K Carrier-based Fighters :: Air-Attack.com


As you can see, in reality IN reduced their initial plans to order N-LCA in numbers, up to such a silly number of 6, but at the same time bought and are interested in more foreign fighters!
In contrast to that, in november 2009 IAF increased their initial order of 1 squad of LCA MK1 to a second one and evaluating engines for at least 100 MK2s (50 optional).

This order for 6 N-LCAs is nothing more than PR, to say that our indigenous carriers will also have indigenous fighters, like it was planed in the beginning. But all the delays and the lack of capabilities, made them re-think it. Six N-LCAs are not useful for air defense, in the anti ship role and there is no doubt about which will be the main carrier fighter of IN, the Mig 29K!
Btw, the investment of IN is not for the LCA development, but for the changes that are needed for the naval version only, so they didn't save LCA at all. More over, N-LCA is based on the MK2, so without a developed LCA MK2 for IAF, IN won't get N-LCA. 




shaktiman2010 said:


> Talks prove nothing. Actions show what you are.



Exactly and I have to quote myself once again here:



> LCA, Dhruv, LCH, LOH, Saras, indigenous trainer and UAVs, SAMs and other weapons



*That is more than just talk, that is real action to push our defense industry!*


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## Titanium

> The *Tejas Mark I is already as good or better as the light fighters in the IA*F,&#8221; declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the MiG-21 BISON. &#8220;*The air force should order at least 60 of them.&#8221;*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, the IAF is less exuberant. *Senior air marshal*s point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. *The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less*; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to.



Tejas boosts test programme

This is to discuss the performance shortfall of LCA.

What do Air Marshal mean by does not fly as fast. 1.8 Mach

Whats problem with acceleration?

Is it engine, but the same engine is in Gripen supercruising

Is the airframe that much draggier that acceleration and flying fast is inhibited??

IF these two are correct, then what is a fighter?? You can as well lugg the missile and gun on a trainer or a transport aircraft.


Seriously WTF is wrong with LCA??

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## ironman

*but the same engine is in Gripen supercruising*

This only shows your knowledge in subject matter.


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## Titanium

Thanks, but can you elaborate little bit for un-educated.

You see, we are here to learn form each other.


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## deckingraj

Titanium said:


> Thanks, but can you elaborate little bit for un-educated.
> 
> You see, we are here to learn form each other.



I by no means know about this stuff however what i have learned in this forum is that 

- Engine alone does not dictate the speed of AC....
- AC design(shape, wings etc), payload and other factors comes into picture...

As far as Tejas is concerned then we have a sticky dedicated to it...Any reason you are not using it and creating all together new thread????

P.S : reason i am suggesting is 
- It defeats the purpose of sticky
- Many SME(Subject Matter Experts) visit the sticky and keep adding latest information which may have already answered your question
- You will get more prompt reply from the experts....


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## sancho

Titanium said:


> Thanks, but can you elaborate little bit for un-educated.
> 
> You see, we are here to learn form each other.



He meant that LCA MK1 uses the GE 404 engine, which is a derivate of the engine in older Gripens, but only the Gripen NG prototype proved SC. It uses the GE 414 engine with nearly 10kN more dry thrust and this engine is only under evaluation for LCA MK2.


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## Titanium

deckingraj said:


> I by no means know about this stuff however what i have learned in this forum is that



Fine


> - Engine alone does not dictate the speed of AC....



That I know... that's the reason for my surpise.



> - AC design(shape, wings etc), payload and other factors comes into picture...



Most probable culprit



> As far as Tejas is concerned then we have a sticky dedicated to it...Any reason you are not using it and creating all together new thread????




Yep, I thought over that, but the constant news and other issues distract the thread from the point I would like to discuss.



> P.S : reason i am suggesting is
> - It defeats the purpose of sticky
> - Many SME(Subject Matter Experts) visit the sticky and keep adding latest information which may have already answered your question
> - You will get more prompt reply from the experts....



I appreciate that, but more often, ther will be lack of follow, as more than I subject/issues of LCA will be discussed.

About the "experts", whover the species is, may also get to notice and contribute.

Hope Mod will merge this thread with sticky (if there is need)* after* it done its purpose.


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## Kompromat

ironman said:


> *but the same engine is in Gripen supercruising*
> 
> This only shows your knowledge in subject matter.



General Electric F-404 with 85KTN of Thrust is a decent Engine.
Since sheer amount of Composite materials are being used in Tejas and it is a design based on Mirage it should fly at least mach 1.8 fast.

All i can think of is the Design flaws can cause such an issue or extended weight.

Give you an example.

Thunder Prototype 2.



Thunder Production Air craft.




See the difference in Air intakes , the Second Photo has Divert less supersonic intakes where as the Prototype has conventional intakes much like F-4 Phantom.

The Fastest Speed of the Prototype recorded was Mach 1.6 but the Production air craft has a speed of mach 1.8 with the same engine but DSI intakes and major design changes in the air frame.

Maybe Tejas needs some fundamental and radical design changes in its air frame.

Regards: BB


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## ironman

Hi, there is significant difference between "Acceleration" and "Top Speed". 

Any comment on this issue without further clarification from IAF or ADA will only be speculative.


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## Kompromat

ironman said:


> Hi, there is significant difference between "Acceleration" and "Top Speed".
> 
> Any comment on this issue without further clarification from IAF or ADA will only be speculative.



Well , the lack of Acceleration effects the Response of the aircraft in real time its can be suicidal for the pilot in a dogfight.

I dont think there is any issue with F-404 as Gripen and Hornets have used them over the years . It is a one hell of a powerful engine , there must be some flaws in the Plane design wise or be it some technical errors.


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## ironman

Gripen using Volvo Aero RM12 engine.


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## kashith

with the thrust to weight ratio, it can go upto mach 2, they have just not tested it to a mach 2+ speed,remember the comment about the speed is not made by DRDO but some corrupt IAF guy,a!!hole.


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## Kompromat

ironman said:


> Gripen using Volvo Aero RM12 engine.



Which is a version of GE F-404 Educate yourself .


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## ironman

Black Blood said:


> Which is a version of GE F-404 Educate yourself .



Then in your opinion F404-400, F404-402, RM-12, F404-102 are all same because they carry F404 ?..


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## CONNAN

this would be an excellant site for tejas fans

http://www.lca-tejas.org/


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## gambit

kashith said:


> with the *thrust to weight ratio*, it can go upto mach 2, they have just not tested it to a mach 2+ speed,remember the comment about the speed is not made by DRDO but some corrupt IAF guy,a!!hole.


Correct...!!! Gents, forget about arguing which engine also runs what aircraft. Top speed, acceleration and sustainable speed all depends on that thrust-weight ratio. Fuel and weapons are factors of that ratio as they are 'consumables'. That mean this ratio is also a variable, complicating engine management by modern avionics. If there is a performance problem or 'hit' with this engine in one aircraft but not in the other, do not blame the engine.

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## Mughal-Prince

Black Blood said:


> General Electric F-404 with 85KTN of Thrust is a decent Engine.
> Since sheer amount of Composite materials are being used in Tejas and it is a design based on Mirage it should fly at least mach 1.8 fast.
> 
> All i can think of is the Design flaws can cause such an issue or extended weight.
> 
> Give you an example.
> 
> Thunder Prototype 2.
> 
> 
> 
> Thunder Production Air craft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference in Air intakes , the Second Photo has Divert less supersonic intakes where as the Prototype has conventional intakes much like F-4 Phantom.
> 
> The Fastest Speed of the Prototype recorded was Mach 1.6 but the Production air craft has a speed of mach 1.8 with the same engine but DSI intakes and major design changes in the air frame.
> 
> Maybe Tejas needs some fundamental and radical design changes in its air frame.
> 
> Regards: BB



Well it means if we add composites Like Carbon fiber, Kevlar and Glass fiber composites JF17 will become lighter and more agile as well as fast & with proposed new 100 KTN WS10 or 12 engines it will become Mach 2+ ... Infact I don't know that after adding Composites How much of the weight reduced by the JF17 ... what might be the %age ... and as a matter of fact that LCA is designed with light weight composites still lack in performance ... it seems like it has a design flaw what else because its the worlds smallest Combat Aircraft have a pretty Decent engine with an 85 KTN almost same as RD 93 ...


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## kashith

again .... it is not an official news,some humbug who even might not be involved with the testing reported that it has not flown with all the armaments..well it has flown with R-73, drop tanks and every other missile ,the tests have not finished yet,if they would have pushed through to max speed then it might have been reported,as it was reported when it broke mach 1 for the first time.....


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## Tejas-MkII

Tejas boosts test programme

*Tejas boosts test programme*
Ajai Shukla / Hal\ Bangalore June 05, 2010, 0:28 IST

A small group of engineers stood tensely beside the runway on Thursday at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore, peering at the sky. As two approaching dots rapidly enlarged into the menacing delta-wing shapes of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, an animated murmur arose. Test pilot, Wing Commander Suneet Krishna was bringing in a brand new Tejas fighter from its inaugural test flight.

Krishna descended steeply, a parachute flowering as his aircraft touched down; a split second behind him, the chase aircraft, another Tejas flown by Group Captain R R Tyagi, &#8220;peeled off&#8221; into the sky with a roar. That was the &#8220;chase aircraft&#8221;, which had watched and photographed every moment of Krishna&#8217;s flight. In those 40 minutes, both fighters had climbed to 36,000 feet; broken the sound barrier; turned and twisted sharply; and checked several parameters as part of the Tejas flight test programme.

The fighters taxied into where the ground crew was assembled and clapping broke out, as Krishna climbed out flashing a thumbs-up. A bucket of water was ceremonially dumped over his head (the Tejas budget does not run to champagne), several bouquets handed over, and kaju barfi stuffed into his mouth. The fourth Limited Series Production Tejas (LSP-4) was ready to join the flight test programme.

*Each LSP Tejas contains more systems and is more complex than its predecessors. LSP-3, which first flew on 23rd April, was the first Tejas with a multi-mode radar (MMR); and with electronic systems to differentiate friendly from hostile aircraft. LSP-4 has all that and also flare and chaff dispensers to confuse enemy radars and missiles: a Counter Measure Dispensing System.*

With the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the Tejas due this year, the flight test programme desperately needs every aircraft it can build. The testing, which requires thousands of individual flight checks, proceeds only as fast as the number of aircraft available for the testing. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas programme, has faced sharp criticism from the Indian Air Force for producing successive LSP aircraft too slowly, thereby protracting the testing and delaying the IOC. LSP-4 will be only the eighth Tejas in the flight test programme, which has done 1,300 sorties, amounting to more than 700 hours of flying.

HAL admits that LSP-3 was overdue by a year, but points out that LSP-4 has followed in just over a month. &#8220;*I am pushing for LSP-5 to fly by June-end,*&#8221; says D Balasunder, the managing director of HAL&#8217;s Bangalore Complex. &#8220;It will have all the systems fitted in LSP-4, and will additionally have night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.&#8221;

From the runway, technicians move off to the hangars with the newly-inaugurated LSP-4 to ready it for a gruelling regime of hot weather trials. *This weekend, LSP-3 and LSP-4 will leave for Nagpur, where, day after day, they will bake in the sun for hours before hurling themselves into the sky to test whether their sophisticated electronics can withstand the Indian summer.*

*The ADA plans to build LSP-6 and LSP-7 quickly and then hand those two Tejas fighters to the IAF. At its base in Sulur, near Coimbatore, the IAF will operate the aircraft to provide feedback about improvements that are needed to make the Tejas easier to maintain in combat. ADA sources plan to make easy maintainability a key feature of the Tejas Mark- II, the next, improved, version of the Indian fighter.*

*&#8220;The Tejas Mark I is already as good or better as the light fighters in the IAF,&#8221; declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the MiG-21 BISON. &#8220;The air force should order at least 60 of them.&#8221;
*

But, the IAF is less exuberant. Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to.


----------



## Merilion

> Tejas boosts test programme
> 
> 
> The Tejas Mark I is already as good or better as the light fighters in the IAF, declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the *MiG-21 BISON*. The air force should order at least 60 of them.
> 
> 
> *But, the IAF is less exuberant. Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to*.



looks to me lca mk1 still has a long way to go.


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## Titanium

ironman said:


> Hi, there is significant difference between "Acceleration" and "Top Speed".



Yup,

But unfortunately the LCA lack both, according to reports.




> Any comment on this issue without further clarification from IAF or ADA will only be speculative.




Lot of indirect clarifications are coming from both IAF, &dodo.


----------



## farhan_9909

Mig 21 bison and LCA both same for IAF

:O


----------



## LCH

farhan_9909 said:


> Mig 21 bison and LCA both same for IAF
> 
> :O



just like ur JF 17 and Mirage 5 (old) are same


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## farhan_9909

LCH said:


> just like ur JF 17 and Mirage 5 (old) are same



well they are nt..do you hav any official claim frm PAF or any govt wher they said that jf-17 and mirages re same

liek your official said.compaing it with mig 21 bison

this is a insult to lca.


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## LCH

farhan_9909 said:


> well they are nt..do you hav any official claim frm PAF or any govt wher they said that jf-17 and mirages re same
> 
> liek your official said.compaing it with mig 21 bison
> 
> this is a insult to lca.



Can u provide any source when they compare both aircraft ... or u just come here to start flam war???


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## farhan_9909

LCH said:


> Can u provide any source when they compare both aircraft ... or u just come here to start flam war???



well check the Merilion post...


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## AkhandBharath

farhan_9909 said:


> Mig 21 bison and LCA both same for IAF
> 
> :O



Well.. the main reason for the development of LCA was to replace MIG 21 & 23 & bisons.. and thats where the comparison to Mig bison and LCA stops.. if you go by the features of LCA its way advanced than the Bisons..


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## LCH

farhan_9909 said:


> well check the Merilion post...



well dude i dnt want to banned again 

but for your knowledge mk2 version of LCA gonna outperform our MKIs


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## Titanium

kashith said:


> again .... it is not an official news,




What constitute "OFFICIAL" News????

It si not like a blog, but a business paper reporting quoting an AirMarshal and the director subramanium.


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## LCH

Titanium said:


> What constitute "OFFICIAL" News????
> 
> It si not like a blog, but a business paper reporting quoting an AirMarshal and the director subramanium.



well if its true so our officials not hide it but its not official ... we dont need to hide failure reports like pakistan


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## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> well they are nt..do you hav any official claim frm PAF or any govt wher they said that jf-17 and mirages re same
> 
> liek your official said.compaing it with mig 21 bison
> 
> this is a insult to lca.



do u have any link who proof ur word. but if u compare the jf-17 and hal tejas it seem that tejas is much better than jf-17.

*Performance: HAL TEJAS* 4.5 generation aircraft
Maximum speed: Mach 2+ (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.02
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters

*Performance JF-17* 4th generation Aircraft
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km(2,175 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.99 
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)
external fuel Up to 3 drop tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time


HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## LCH

^^^ please add radar also in the comparison


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## farhan_9909

LCH said:


> well dude i dnt want to banned again
> 
> but for your knowledge mk2 version of LCA gonna outperform our MKIs



what is the basic difference between LCA MK1 and MK2

engine with 10Kn more thrust and AEAS.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Ask the test pilots who flew Tejas......simple.


Here everyone is confusing with the acceleration with top speed.


The acceleration with GE 404 engine is well known and falling short of India Airforce expectation. This was well known for years thats why they are going for different engine. Remember competition between GE 414 and Eurojet 200.


It is nothing like that sky as fallen yesterday. This acceleration issue was there since beginning.

Now compare the acceleartion of Gripen with GE 404 with that of Tejas.


If GE 404 acceleration is so good and claimed by some member here that it provides supercruise then why everyone has shifted to GE 414.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> do u have any link who proof ur word. but if u compare the jf-17 and hal tejas it seem that tejas is much better than jf-17.
> 
> *Performance: HAL TEJAS* 4.5 generation aircraft
> Maximum speed: Mach 2+ (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
> Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
> Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
> Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
> Thrust/weight: 1.02
> Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
> External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
> 
> *Performance JF-17* 4th generation Aircraft
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
> Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,000 km(2,175 mi)
> Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
> Thrust/weight: 0.99
> Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)
> external fuel Up to 3 drop tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time
> 
> 
> HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



First of all frm wher did you get that the current Lca Mk1 is 4.5th generation.and it has 2. mach speed when in the recent test your own official claim that it speed didnt even reached the 1.8mach.
Jf-17 with current airframe which is heavy compare to LCA compsite made airframe has 1.8mach speed imagine jf-17 with 100KN engine and greater use of compsite material how much speed would jf-17 hav,,it will be above 2.0 mach for sure.
and about radar it is nt yet confirmed that the current jf-17 use klj-7 or klj-10
KLJ-10 is comparable or even better then the israel 20/32 while KLJ-7 is little inferior

by the time your LCA drop into full scale production we will hav the Jf-17 block II


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Titanium said:


> Tejas boosts test programme
> 
> This is to discuss the performance shortfall of LCA.
> 
> What do Air Marshal mean by does not fly as fast. 1.8 Mach
> 
> Whats problem with acceleration?
> 
> Is it engine, but the same engine is in Gripen supercruising
> 
> Is the airframe that much draggier that acceleration and flying fast is inhibited??
> 
> IF these two are correct, then what is a fighter?? You can as well lugg the missile and gun on a trainer or a transport aircraft.
> 
> 
> Seriously WTF is wrong with LCA??






LCA falls short of everything.

The Air Marshal wants LCA to fly Mach 3

The GE 404 engine is the most advanced jet engine ever developed. It is way ahead in generation compared to GE 414 and Eurojet 2000.
Why LCA is not fast enough with this ultra modern engine is that 

The LCA design is obsolute WW I a la Wright Brothers'
The LCA body is made up of cast iron. So it is the heaviest fighter.
Forget the drag from airframe, LCA has to be towed by Boeing 737 with a rope so as gain speed to atleat glide.

All those photos and videos of LCA flying sometimes with weapons are just mockups and photoshopped.

LCA is not a fighter it is just a glider. Thats why we have decide to hang our missiles and guns on Airbus A 380 Supejumbo. See our missiles and guns are too heavy.

So what is wrong with LCA? Notthing is right with LCA.

LCA is just a glider towed by Boeing 737.

Thats it.


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## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> well they are nt..do you hav any official claim frm PAF or any govt wher they said that jf-17 and mirages re same
> 
> liek your official said.compaing it with mig 21 bison
> 
> this is a insult to lca.


Can you just tell me which old A/c replace by Jf-17 you will get your Answer why IAF or indian media compare LCA with Mig-21 (any variant)


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## Cityboy

. . . . . . . . . . . . , .


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## Chanakyaa

@vasiley,

There is a site called youtube which has enough videos to crush ur photoshop phobia.

Some time back even arjun was a 'junk' before it beat the T90.

Let IOC occour and a comparative trials take place.. Before that we can continue trolling n wasting bandwidth as we have done with arjun, agni ....

PS : do change ur country flag.. I known indian flag is awesome but.. Having ur own flag is truely a respect to ur country.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

@ Xinix ,

Please read my earlier post also it will clear doubts as to who I am.

If you don't understand sarcasm then thats your problem.

And my flag and my country belongs to me. Its none of your business to tell me.

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## Vasily Zaytsev

If the enemy thinks our tank Arjun is Junk, LCA is slow and Agni is failure then its better to let them think so. Thats why I posted a sarcastic argument.

If the other guy is hell bent on proving LCA is slow then don't try to correct him after you have proved him otherwise.

Instead say that LCA is slower that will satisfy him to keep him shut and thus we can save our precious bandwidth.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> First of all frm wher did you get that the current Lca Mk1 is 4.5th generation.and it has 2. mach speed when in the recent test your own official claim that it speed didnt even reached the 1.8mach.
> Jf-17 with current airframe which is heavy compare to LCA compsite made airframe has 1.8mach speed imagine jf-17 with 100KN engine and greater use of compsite material how much speed would jf-17 hav,,it will be above 2.0 mach for sure.
> and about radar it is nt yet confirmed that the current jf-17 use klj-7 or klj-10
> KLJ-10 is comparable or even better then the israel 20/32 while KLJ-7 is little inferior
> 
> by the time your LCA drop into full scale production we will hav the Jf-17 block II



first all data taken from famous website wikipedia.com, it's not my personal opinion. lca is still under development bcoz indian airforce prefer quality not quantity that's why drdo trying to make it best. jf-17 is good but average aircraft that's why chinese airforce rejected it and they have already lot of mig-21 type aircraft they don't want any more.


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## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> First of all frm wher did you get that the current Lca Mk1 is 4.5th generation.and it has 2. mach speed when in the recent test your own official claim that it speed didnt even reached the 1.8mach.


I agree with this point with you i think Mk-1 has Top speed around 1.6 or 1.8 M



> Jf-17 with current airframe which is heavy compare to LCA compsite made airframe has 1.8mach speed *imagine jf-17 with 100KN engine and greater use of compsite material how much speed would jf-17 hav,,it will be above 2.0 mach for sure.*
> 
> by the time your LCA drop into full scale production we will hav the Jf-17 block II


Come on guy talk real not imagine if I imagine in LCA then we got ge414 epe engine which has around 115-120Kn. DRDO AESA or if it not complete in time then may be from MRCA chosen fighter AESA may be fitted in the LCA also. 




> and about radar it is nt yet confirmed that the current jf-17 use klj-7 or klj-10


 you are not sure which radar currently use in JF-17 but LCA has MMR (hybrid) radar with the el-2032 processor (I dnt know what exact detail Plz some senior indian member give this detail). 




> KLJ-10 is comparable or even better then the israel 20/32 while KLJ-7 is little inferior


Plz provide me some source or detail about this radar.


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## shiningindia

LCH said:


> ^^^ please add radar also in the comparison



sorry i have no lot of information about radar of both aircraft. but i listen that tejas radar is two time better then jf-17 radar. please any one here to provide some additional and correct(not biased) information about radar.


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## shiningindia

i got some information about lca radar:

The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km.

but not found any information about jf-17.


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## JonAsad

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> If the enemy thinks our tank Arjun is Junk, LCA is slow and Agni is failure then its better to let them think so. Thats why I posted a sarcastic argument.
> 
> *If the other guy is hell bent on proving LCA is slow then don't try to correct him after you have proved him otherwise.*
> 
> Instead say that LCA is slower that will satisfy him to keep him* shut *and thus we can save our *precious bandwidth*.





Titanium said:


> Tejas boosts test programme









This guy showed you a mirror and you labeled him an enemy?
Who is the expert you? or the senior Air Marshals of your airforce?
Your analysis is silly.

*The bolded parts:*

Dont prove us any thing if you guys are the so called experts prove it to your senior air marshals. It will be worth it for your sake.

i think you should shut your air marshal he is the one saying that and save your airforce instead of thinking of bandwidth.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Haanzo

more photos of the first flight of LSP-4

























the sheer joy on the faces of these young engineers is an awsome sight to watch ...as i was saying kids need a lot of attention then alone the results will be sweet

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## Haanzo

CAN THE THREAD STARTER CLARIFY ONE THING ---WHAT IS THE RELATION BETWEEN ACCELERATION AND TOP SPEED OF ANY THING IN MOTION ...... to say it does not fly as fast becoz acceleration is less is insane at best


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## ramu

jonasad said:


> This guy showed you a mirror and you labeled him an enemy?
> Who is the expert you? or the senior Air Marshals of your airforce?
> Your analysis is silly.
> 
> *The bolded parts:*
> 
> Dont prove us any thing if you guys are the so called experts prove it to your senior air marshals. It will be worth it for your sake.
> 
> i think you should shut your air marshal he is the one saying that and save your airforce instead of thinking of bandwidth.



  

No one is saying the acceleration is great nor anyone is claiming we know more than ADA or Airforce. The problem is known from a long long time. The engine is expected to change and a lot of development in terms of collaboration is on the cards for a new engine. *This problem is well known and the solution is also known.* The current objective of LCA is not the power plant but to ensure the rest of the systems work according to the mission/test parameters including the radar that recently went on board.

This is like saying " I have a problem with my spark plug on my bike. I have decided to change it next week but I am sure I can run with it for the time being. I will not be able to drive above 80 KMPH or 1g for now but that is fine as I am just taking the bike for a test ride. "

Hope that answers LCA critics.


----------



## !!craft!!

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> LCA falls short of everything.
> 
> The Air Marshal wants LCA to fly Mach 3
> 
> The GE 404 engine is the most advanced jet engine ever developed. It is way ahead in generation compared to GE 414 and Eurojet 2000.
> Why LCA is not fast enough with this ultra modern engine is that
> 
> The LCA design is obsolute WW I a la Wright Brothers'
> The LCA body is made up of cast iron. So it is the heaviest fighter.
> Forget the drag from airframe, LCA has to be towed by Boeing 737 with a rope so as gain speed to atleat glide.
> 
> All those photos and videos of LCA flying sometimes with weapons are just mockups and photoshopped.
> 
> LCA is not a fighter it is just a glider. Thats why we have decide to hang our missiles and guns on Airbus A 380 Supejumbo. See our missiles and guns are too heavy.
> 
> So what is wrong with LCA? Notthing is right with LCA.
> 
> LCA is just a glider towed by Boeing 737.
> 
> Thats it.



ROFL buddy you should get the PDF sarcasm award!!!

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## JonAsad

ramu said:


> No one is saying the acceleration is great nor anyone is claiming we know more than ADA or Airforce. The problem is known from a long long time. The engine is expected to change and a lot of development in terms of collaboration is on the cards for a new engine. *This problem is well known and the solution is also known.* The current objective of LCA is not the power plant but to ensure the rest of the systems work according to the mission/test parameters including the radar that recently went on board.
> 
> This is like saying " I have a problem with my spark plug on my bike. I have decided to change it next week but I am sure I can run with it for the time being. I will not be able to drive above 80 KMPH or 1g for now but that is fine as I am just taking the bike for a test ride. "
> 
> Hope that answers LCA critics.



i have no problem with that, i was trying to make a point to the so called PDF expert.


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## JonAsad

!!craft!! said:


> ROFL buddy you should get the PDF sarcasm award!!!




Congratulations


----------



## !!craft!!

jonasad said:


> i have no problem with that, i was trying to make a point to the so called PDF expert.



well then i hope its cleared


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## JonAsad

!!craft!! said:


> well then i hope its cleared



Yeah talk logic and things always clear.

i dont  i


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## IndianArmy

Look at those people..... Hahaha... Poring water on the Pilot.... Look at the Joy in them...


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## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> first all data taken from famous website wikipedia.com, it's not my personal opinion. lca is still under development bcoz indian airforce prefer quality not quantity that's why drdo trying to make it best. jf-17 is good but average aircraft that's why chinese airforce rejected it and they have already lot of mig-21 type aircraft they don't want any more.



well yes wiki information is almst true bt i knw many indian who edit wiki.
also LCA MK1 is nt 4.5th generation many of your indian will agree with this point for you.

well i agree MKI is good aircraft i mean average and indian over rated aircraft that is why it is rejected by russian air force they prefer the old su 27 instead of your MKI which you people evenn compare it with su 35..LMAO

chineese in future after ws-13 100% success will induct jf-17 bt MKI never.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well yes wiki information is almst true bt i knw many indian who edit wiki.
> also LCA MK1 is nt 4.5th generation many of your indian will agree with this point for you.
> 
> well i agree MKI is good aircraft i mean average and indian over rated aircraft that is why it is rejected by russian air force they prefer the old su 27 instead of your MKI which you people evenn compare it with su 35..LMAO
> 
> chineese in future after ws-13 100% success will induct jf-17 bt MKI never.



Why do the Russians Need Suk 30 when they have Sukhoi 35 with them??? We bought Sukhoi 30 and Modified it with the capabilities of Sukhoi 35.... and i dont see any chance why the Russians would get sukhoi 30 and and Sukhoi 35......

As far as Jf-17 is concerned Its joint development between You two, so why would they reject it????


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> I agree with this point with you i think Mk-1 has Top speed around 1.6 or 1.8 M
> 
> 
> Come on guy talk real not imagine if I imagine in LCA then we got ge414 epe engine which has around 115-120Kn. DRDO AESA or if it not complete in time then may be from MRCA chosen fighter AESA may be fitted in the LCA also.
> 
> 
> you are not sure which radar currently use in JF-17 but LCA has MMR (hybrid) radar with the el-2032 processor (I dnt know what exact detail Plz some senior indian member give this detail).
> 
> 
> 
> Plz provide me some source or detail about this radar.



first tel me frm wher you get that ge414 thrsut is +110 KN?
and you cant put any radar into your tiny size LCA..except the gripen radar.wher as we hav i mean the chineese hav redesigned the jf-17 and tested ws-13 on it.jf-17 is keep getting upgrade wher as your LCA is stick with the 10 years old specs.
well fullsclae production of LCA will start by 2012 and in 2012 we will hav jf-17 Block II almost ready which will hav edge over LCA in every aspect.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Why do the Russians Need Suk 30 when they have Sukhoi 35 with them??? We bought Sukhoi 30 and Modified it with the capabilities of Sukhoi 35.... and i dont see any chance why the Russians would get sukhoi 30 and and Sukhoi 35......
> 
> As far as Jf-17 is concerned Its joint development between You two, so why would they reject it????



they need su 30 because it is the most cheapest 4th generation heavy class fighter.wher as ther su 35 cost +65Billion USD.

it is only a myth that MKI is blah and blah
bt truth is that it is over rated aircraft by my fellow indians,.

and the russian rejected it..
they prefer THE 35 YEARS old su 27 in large number bt nt the super duper world cheapest 4th generation indiann over rated aircrfat su 30 MKI

and do you hav any proof that chineese rejected it.
PAF need an aircraft and they are still developing a new version of jf-17 like they tested the aircraft with ther own engine.and integration of IRST and development of AESA.


----------



## farhan_9909

what is the reason?

rd-93 and the LCA engine thrust is same almost bt jf-17 speed is 1.8 and LCA same
when LCA is almost a ton lighter then jf-17

i am thinking if jf-17 weight is reduced with use of composite materials and upto 100Kn engine.

it can achieve 2.2mach speed very easily
wher as LCA with Eurojet200(95kn) or Ge414(95KN) will not exceeed 2.mach


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## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> they need su 30 because it is the most cheapest 4th generation heavy class fighter.wher as ther su 35 cost +65Billion USD.
> 
> it is only a myth that MKI is blah and blah
> bt truth is that it is over rated aircraft by my fellow indians,.
> 
> and the russian rejected it..
> they prefer THE 35 YEARS old su 27 in large number bt nt the super duper world cheapest 4th generation indiann over rated aircrfat su 30 MKI
> 
> and do you hav any proof that chineese rejected it.
> PAF need an aircraft and they are still developing a new version of jf-17 like they tested the aircraft with ther own engine.and integration of IRST and development of AESA.



Iam not an Airforce man, But as My personal experiance with Sukhoi 30 MKI, its a One first class Aircraft.... It has been modified with Avionics made by India"vetrivale" , and Russia want that from India to export it to other countries....

Sukhoi 30 MKI gives an Edge over other 4th generation aircrafts because Of Its Air superiority ness.... 

And as Far as Jf-17, I was asking You why would china reject the fighter developed by them, I have no prior Knowledge on this fighter aircraft....


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> what is the reason?
> 
> rd-93 and the LCA engine thrust is same almost bt jf-17 speed is 1.8 and LCA same
> when LCA is almost a ton lighter then jf-17
> 
> i am thinking if jf-17 weight is reduced with use of composite materials and upto 100Kn engine.
> 
> it can achieve 2.2mach speed very easily
> wher as LCA with Eurojet200(95kn) or Ge414(95KN) will not exceeed 2.mach



I dont think speed is dependent on Weight, its complicated aerodynamics, Air Intake plays a Major role in speed..... LCA tejas had already had minor changes in its design, Hope this works...


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Iam not an Airforce man, But as My personal experiance with Sukhoi 30 MKI, its a One first class Aircraft.... It has been modified with Avionics made by India"vetrivale" , and Russia want that from India to export it to other countries....
> 
> Sukhoi 30 MKI gives an Edge over other 4th generation aircrafts because Of Its Air superiority ness....
> 
> And as Far as Jf-17, I was asking You why would china reject the fighter developed by them, I have no prior Knowledge on this fighter aircraft....



your personal experiance with that?you said i am nt air force man?
i agree it is good aircraft bt nt as that much as indian described it.
and jf-17 is nt rejected by china..they are currenly running so many programs like j-10B,j-11Ns,j-11C,j-15,j-10B,j-xx..
many engine developments

and also jf-17 II development.
you will see jf-17 better then Gripen NG when it take all upgrade and work for all is almost in ending.
like engine is testing
composite material are used in the current jf-17 bt nt that much..
IRST integration
airframe modification to reduce RCS
only AESA radar is remaining.whichw e will choose italian vixen 1000ES or the chineese one in the development.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> I dont think speed is dependent on Weight, its complicated aerodynamics, Air Intake plays a Major role in speed..... LCA tejas had already had minor changes in its design, Hope this works...



jf-17 already has 1.8mach speed and it can achive 2.2mach with 100kn engine

air intakes does matter bt engine power also matter..


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> your personal experiance with that?you said i am nt air force man?



While addressing In the NDA , We have several officials from IAF who honor the cadets while the passing out parade, and Its Incomplete Without the MKI and Jaguar show to boost the Morale of the cadets present there... Its my routine to Address the cadets and witness this show.. And there are many Instances where I got to know about it...



farhan_9909 said:


> i agree it is good aircraft bt nt as that much as indian described it.



Why not, what have the Indians been Describing about it? Iam new here, I say its among the best in the 4th gen, and after the upgradation which is going on ,it would be in the class of a pure 4.5 gen aircraft falling behind F-22 only by Stealth



farhan_9909 said:


> and jf-17 is nt rejected by china..they are currenly running so many programs like j-10B,j-11Ns,j-11C,j-15,j-10B,j-xx..
> many engine developments
> 
> and also jf-17 II development.
> you will see jf-17 better then Gripen NG when it take all upgrade and work for all is almost in ending.
> like engine is testing
> composite material are used in the current jf-17 bt nt that much..
> IRST integration
> airframe modification to reduce RCS
> only AESA radar is remaining.whichw e will choose italian vixen 1000ES or the chineese one in the development.



I dint know about Jf-17 much thanks for clarifying it, is it better than the F-16 you flying????


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> jf-17 already has 1.8mach speed and it can achive 2.2mach with 100kn engine
> 
> air intakes does matter bt engine power also matter..




Sir, what the pilots mean by the high speed achieved is, a speed till which the Aircraft remains in control, The moment you feel the turbulence You dont take chance and there is a need for Improvement... LCA can use full potential of The engine, But whats the Use if the Aircraft Is having pressure....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> While addressing In the NDA , We have several officials from IAF who honor the cadets while the passing out parade, and Its Incomplete Without the MKI and Jaguar show to boost the Morale of the cadets present there... Its my routine to Address the cadets and witness this show.. And there are many Instances where I got to know about it...
> 
> 
> 
> Why not, what have the Indians been Describing about it? Iam new here, I say its among the best in the 4th gen, and after the upgradation which is going on ,it would be in the class of a pure 4.5 gen aircraft falling behind F-22 only by Stealth
> 
> 
> 
> I dint know about Jf-17 much thanks for clarifying it, is it better than the F-16 you flying????



how it is best 4th generation what is has to be best.it is only good
yess the Mk2 will be better or comparable with the war experianced fighter f-16


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> how it is best 4th generation what is has to be best.it is only good
> yess the Mk2 will be better or comparable with the war experianced fighter f-16



Read fully please, I never said its the best, I said its among the best, And what does it not have to be in the league of *Among the best*? *its an Air Superiority fighter*


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Read fully please, I never said its the best, I said its among the best, And what does it not have to be in the league of *Among the best*? *its an Air Superiority fighter*



First of all its a very big size best superiority fighter should be Eurofighter and second to it rafale 

then f-15/

its bigger RCS.
and indian pilot(joking)


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> your personal experiance with that?you said i am nt air force man?
> i agree it is good aircraft bt nt as that much as indian described it.
> and jf-17 is nt rejected by china..they are currenly running so many programs like j-10B,j-11Ns,j-11C,j-15,j-10B,j-xx..
> many engine developments
> 
> and also jf-17 II development.
> you will see jf-17 better then Gripen NG when it take all upgrade and work for all is almost in ending.
> like engine is testing
> composite material are used in the current jf-17 bt nt that much..
> IRST integration
> airframe modification to reduce RCS
> only AESA radar is remaining.whichw e will choose italian vixen 1000ES or the chineese one in the development.



you are so funny r u serious ???


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> First of all its a very big size best superiority fighter should be Eurofighter and second to it rafale
> 
> then f-15/
> 
> its bigger RCS.
> and indian pilot(joking)



Who said a Big size fighter cannot be A good fighter? Bigger RCS, A point but its not as vulnerable as You think it to be.... And its already getting Smart Skin....

And the pilot thing, Iam not interested in Insulting a Soldier as You have done it....


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> you are so funny r u serious ???



Indians se seekh gya hoon..


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Who said a Big size fighter cannot be A good fighter? Bigger RCS, A point but its not as vulnerable as You think it to be.... And its already getting Smart Skin....
> 
> And the pilot thing, Iam not interested in Insulting a Soldier as You have done it....



well then talk after upgrades.we are talking about now
when we talk about jf-17 upgrade you people call us funny

it is truth you accept it or nt.
MKI is the world most cheapest(35-37Million) heavy class fighter.
even the jf-17 french upgrade per aircraft cost was 32million only for avionics and missile


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well then talk after upgrades.we are talking about now
> when we talk about jf-17 upgrade you people call us funny
> 
> it is truth you accept it or nt.
> MKI is the world most cheapest(35-37Million) heavy class fighter.
> even the jf-17 french upgrade per aircraft cost was 32million only for avionics and missile



Cheapness does not make it airworthy?? I just came to Know it now.... and for your Kind Information it took us 6 long years to develop MKI variant, We would not develop a Junk , If You feel satisfied with it, be with it... Did I call You funny, I appreciated You for letting me Know about Jf-17, You are the One who is Fantasizing Not me dear....

And Those Avionics which Sukhoi 30 MKI carries are Indian, Code named as "Vetrivale" So its Obviously cheap for us as The avionics and softwares are ours....


----------



## Tejas-MkII

@farhan_9909

First of all where it has been said that LCA's top speed is less than Mach 1.8.

Tejas boosts test programme



> The Tejas Mark I is already as good or better as the light fighters in the IAF, declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the MiG-21 BISON. The air force should order at least 60 of them.
> 
> But, the IAF is less exuberant. Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to.



And he was saying that LCA is better than Mig-21 BISON...

Do you know any thing about Mig-21 Bison....

Go through this thread ur very own 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53018-mig-21-bison-underdog.html

After reading this thread u can think if he was saying it is better than Mig-21 Bison then it is definitely not a insult to LCA.

And regarding GE-414 

Boeing developing higher thrust engine for international Super Hornet F/A-18E/F clients



> Boeing is developing a F414 derivative with an all new core that will pack 20% more thrust for international Super Hornet F/A-18E/F clients, reports Flight Global.
> 
> *The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs(98) to 26,600lbs(116KN) and dramatically improve the fighters take-off performance*, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Cheapness does not make it airworthy?? I just came to Know it now.... and for your Kind Information it took us 6 long years to develop MKI variant, We would not develop a Junk , If You feel satisfied with it, be with it... Did I call You funny, I appreciated You for letting me Know about Jf-17, You are the One who is Fantasizing Not me dear....
> 
> And Those Avionics which Sukhoi 30 MKI carries are Indian, Code named as "Vetrivale" So its Obviously cheap for us as The avionics and softwares are ours....



well the su 35 use every thing russian and russian planes are nt as expensive as westerns are.bt the su 35 cost 65millio plus
every thing MKi is frm forign
Avionics frm france,israel and russia
engine russian
airframe russian
ejection seat even frm forign

bt still very much cheap

and we are getting f-16 block 52 for 69Million


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well the su 35 use every thing russian and russian planes are nt as expensive as westerns are.bt the su 35 cost 65millio plus
> every thing MKi is frm forign
> Avionics frm france,israel and russia
> engine russian
> airframe russian
> ejection seat even frm forign
> 
> bt still very much cheap
> 
> and we are getting f-16 block 52 for 69Million



Your stats are Wrong, MKI version Uses Indian softwares and Avionics

The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics. They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.

The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:

Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)
Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE
IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)
Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)
Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)
Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE
The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.

These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.

The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.

The navigation/weapons systems from the various countries were integrated by Ramenskoye RPKB.

HAL will supply components to Irkut for 300 Su-30s meant for export to Malaysia and Algeria apart from those meant for IAF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## farhan_9909

Tejas-MkII said:


> @farhan_9909
> 
> First of all where it has been said that LCA's top speed is less than Mach 1.8.
> 
> Tejas boosts test programme
> 
> 
> 
> And he was saying that LCA is better than Mig-21 BISON...
> 
> Do you know any thing about Mig-21 Bison....
> 
> Go through this thread ur very own
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53018-mig-21-bison-underdog.html
> 
> After reading this thread u can think if he was saying it is better than Mig-21 Bison then it is definitely not a insult to LCA.
> 
> And regarding GE-414
> 
> Boeing developing higher thrust engine for international Super Hornet F/A-18E/F clients



i siad it has 1.8mach speed with already usegg greater use of composite materials

and your fact about Ge414 is wrong
when 22000 means 98KN
then take it frm offical GE site
GE - Aviation: F414
General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> well then talk after upgrades.we are talking about now
> when we talk about jf-17 upgrade you people call us funny
> 
> it is truth you accept it or nt.
> MKI is the world most cheapest(35-37Million) heavy class fighter.
> even the jf-17 french upgrade per aircraft cost was 32million only for avionics and missile





Thats because we manufacture it locally and the cosr will be 35-40 million but if u import it with spares it will cost u 55-60 million 

HAL has been manufacturing jets from the ages of Mig-21s


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Your stats are Wrong, MKI version Uses Indian softwares and Avionics
> 
> The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics. They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.
> 
> The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:
> 
> Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)
> Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
> Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE
> IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
> Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)
> Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)
> Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)
> Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE
> The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.
> 
> These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.
> 
> The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.
> 
> The navigation/weapons systems from the various countries were integrated by Ramenskoye RPKB.
> 
> HAL will supply components to Irkut for 300 Su-30s meant for export to Malaysia and Algeria apart from those meant for IAF



i am surprise that it had only taken 6 years for DRDO
when you are nt able to develop 100% avionics for LCA.still impoting avioncis for LCA frm israel and france


----------



## farhan_9909

Dark Angel said:


> Thats because we manufacture it locally and the cosr will be 35-40 million but if u import it with spares it will cost u 55-60 million
> 
> HAL has been manufacturing jets from the ages of Mig-21s



china which is considered much cheaper then india in the world

produce j-10A which cost 40Million.
jf-17 cost is between 15-20Million.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> i am surprise that it had only taken 6 years for DRDO
> when you are nt able to develop 100% avionics for LCA.still impoting avioncis for LCA frm israel and france



Who said LCA Imports Avionics??? LCA needs Engines till its ready with kaveri and Needs A good Radar Until the MMR is ready or We learn to miniaturize the AESA radars we make.... And it took Us More years not to Manufacture it, but to Make it upto the mark of constantly changing standards of IAF


----------



## LCH

farhan_9909 said:


> i am surprise that it had only taken 6 years for DRDO
> when you are nt able to develop 100% avionics for LCA.still impoting avioncis for LCA frm israel and france



this is because we not saying that mki is totally indigenous but not we are able to produce it in locally 100% .... not like pakistan .... some of pakistany member call jf17 indigenous and sone say that Karma made it locally


----------



## Tejas-MkII

farhan_9909 said:


> i siad it has 1.8mach speed with already usegg greater use of composite materials
> *
> and your fact about Ge414 is wrong*
> when 22000 means 98KN
> then take it frm offical GE site
> GE - Aviation: F414
> General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This from ur wikipedia:

General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *GE touts that this latest variant yields either a 20% increase in thrust or threefold increase in hot-section durability over the current F414.*This version is called the Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) and was partially funded through the federal Integrated High Performance Turbine Engine Technology (or IHPTET) program.



And this is form ur GE site:

GE - Aviation: GE F110 and F404/F414 Fighter Engines Expand Capability and Global Presence



> This year, GE will test this new fan with the EDE core to provide up to 20% more thrust than the current F414.



Now do some maths, current thrust of 414 is 98 Kn(22000lbf),add 20% of 22000lbf it become ~ 26000lbf(116KN)..


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> china which is considered much cheaper then india in the world
> 
> produce j-10A which cost 40Million.
> jf-17 cost is between 15-20Million.




May be they are fitting them with diamonds for looking good


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Who said LCA Imports Avionics??? LCA needs Engines till its ready with kaveri and Needs A good Radar Until the MMR is ready or We learn to miniaturize the AESA radars we make.... And it took Us More years not to Manufacture it, but to Make it upto the mark of constantly changing standards of IAF



radar is the 2nd complex thing after engine in the aircraft which is imported frm israel.

let me tell you your AESA radar timeline

first etst of lCA by 2016 with indegenous AESA radar
after test ther are some problem with radar
2nd test in 2018 bt has some problem again.
3rd test in 2020.it is ready by need some more tests
4th test failure program will sign a deal with israel to solve our problem in the radar
2022 MASHALLAH Indian/israely radar is ready for LCA MK2.

after fitting in the aricraft

oh the radar is out dated 
lets start new project


----------



## farhan_9909

Tejas-MkII said:


> This from ur wikipedia:
> 
> General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> And this is form ur GE site:
> 
> GE - Aviation: GE F110 and F404/F414 Fighter Engines Expand Capability and Global Presence
> 
> 
> 
> Now do some maths, current thrust of 414 is 98 Kn(22000lbf),add 20% of 22000lbf it become ~ 26000lbf(116KN)..



well definelty they will nt do this upgrade only for you.becasue you will need only 100Kn bECAUSE THEN YOUR KAVERI WIL BE READY
bt our ws-13 with upto 100Kn engine will be indegenous

ws-13=china=pakistan


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> well yes wiki information is almst true bt i knw many indian who edit wiki.
> also LCA MK1 is nt 4.5th generation many of your indian will agree with this point for you.
> 
> well i agree MKI is good aircraft i mean average and indian over rated aircraft that is why it is rejected by russian air force they prefer the old su 27 instead of your MKI which you people evenn compare it with su 35..LMAO
> 
> chineese in future after ws-13 100% success will induct jf-17 bt MKI never.



i think u need more knowledge SU-30mki is variant of Su-30 which build for specially indian condition, just like Su-30MKK which build for chinese airforce. how can russian use it if the aircraft build for indian condition.


----------



## Tejas-MkII

And this on is regarding EJ200

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

read the *Future of EJ200* section



> *The EuroJet consortium were required to build an engine (often referred to as EJ2x0) which had at least a 20% growth potential. There are already plans to carry out the necessary modifications to reach this higher (Stage-1) output in the 2000 to 2005 timeframe.* Such an improvement will require a new Low Pressure Compressor (raising the pressure ratio to around 4.6) and an upgraded fan (increasing flow by around 10%). T*his would result in the dry thrust increasing to some 72kN (or 16,200lbf ) with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf).* Given recent increases in the weight of the Typhoon it may not be unexpected to find this upgrade performed in the near future.
> 
> *More interestingly perhaps is Rolls-Royce and EuroJet's plan to increase the output 30% above the baseline specification as a Stage-2 modification.* Such an upgrade will require more substantial plantwide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio. *These upgrades would yield a new dry thrust of around 78kN (or 17,500lbf) with a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf). The indications are that these improvements will come on stream between 2005 and 2010*, in time for the Typhoon's Mid Life Upgrade expected around 2016.


----------



## LCH

farhan_9909 said:


> radar is the 2nd complex thing after engine in the aircraft which is imported frm israel.
> 
> let me tell you your AESA radar timeline
> 
> first etst of lCA by 2016 with indegenous AESA radar
> after test ther are some problem with radar
> 2nd test in 2018 bt has some problem again.
> 3rd test in 2020.it is ready by need some more tests
> 4th test failure program will sign a deal with israel to solve our problem in the radar
> 2022 MASHALLAH Indian/israely radar is ready for LCA MK2.
> 
> after fitting in the aricraft
> 
> oh the radar is out dated
> lets start new project




thanks for acknowledge us 

well atleast we are developing it with isreal but wht about u ???

France already kick ur $$$ ... for after 2022 atlest our MK2 is ready but wht about u ????


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> radar is the 2nd complex thing after engine in the aircraft which is imported frm israel.
> 
> let me tell you your AESA radar timeline
> 
> first etst of lCA by 2016 with indegenous AESA radar
> after test ther are some problem with radar
> 2nd test in 2018 bt has some problem again.
> 3rd test in 2020.it is ready by need some more tests
> 4th test failure program will sign a deal with israel to solve our problem in the radar
> 2022 MASHALLAH Indian/israely radar is ready for LCA MK2.
> 
> after fitting in the aricraft
> 
> oh the radar is out dated
> lets start new project



Unlike pakistan, we have wide range and variety of battle radars, India has made AESA radar for Your Kind Information which is Being Used In Our AWACS, and We are also in The process Of Miniaturizing it, and It Might not be used In LCA but in the next project we take up, that is MCA.......

And Kaveri is as Capable as the engine by which JF-17 runs now, But IAF want its Thrust to be Over 92KN, that is Why Kaveri is still not used...

And Please Stop Insulting When Your own country does not have the capability to make engines, radars or Avionics..... India has Made these years ago, but the Only thing is Its not meeting the Standards of IAF....


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> radar is the 2nd complex thing after engine in the aircraft which is imported frm israel.
> 
> let me tell you your AESA radar timeline
> 
> first etst of lCA by 2016 with indegenous AESA radar
> after test ther are some problem with radar
> 2nd test in 2018 bt has some problem again.
> 3rd test in 2020.it is ready by need some more tests
> 4th test failure program will sign a deal with israel to solve our problem in the radar
> 2022 MASHALLAH Indian/israely radar is ready for LCA MK2.
> 
> after fitting in the aricraft
> 
> oh the radar is out dated
> lets start new project





If this is the timeline then JF-17s will never have a radar or a decent engine by 2022  and Lca will have an AESA radar


----------



## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> i think u need more knowledge SU-30mki is variant of Su-30 which build for specially indian condition, just like Su-30MKK which build for chinese airforce. how can russian use it if the aircraft build for indian condition.



well i think you dnt knw that MKK is nt for chineese only bt many other countries bought su 30MKK

same case is with the MKI bt MKK cost 53 million and MKI cost 37 million this is why countries dnt buy cheap stuff


----------



## Tejas-MkII

farhan_9909 said:


> well definelty they will nt do this upgrade only for you.*becasue you will need only 100Kn* bECAUSE THEN YOUR KAVERI WIL BE READY
> bt our ws-13 with upto 100Kn engine will be indegenous
> 
> ws-13=china=pakistan



from when u r start deciding needs of IAF 

and from when 100KN ws-13 is indigenious to u .

It is developed by china and it is still using core of RD-33 engine.So it is also not even indigenious to china

PS: I didn't get the head and tail of this line.Please elaborate this time what u want to say:



farhan_9909 said:


> becasue you will need only 100Kn bECAUSE THEN YOUR KAVERI WIL BE READY


----------



## farhan_9909

Tejas-MkII said:


> And this on is regarding EJ200
> 
> Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion
> 
> read the *Future of EJ200* section



well ther is no current upgration program like ws-13.
with the help of china in future we can even increase it thrust above 100Kn


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well i think you dnt knw that MKK is nt for chineese only bt many other countries bought su 30MKK
> 
> same case is with the MKI bt MKK cost 53 million and MKI cost 37 million this is why countries dnt buy cheap stuff



Which Other country has Bought MKK???? and The One thing which makes it cheap is, its Having Indian avionics and Softwares, and Russia is our ally, so Naturally a Subsidy and Obviously when They are getting orders for 300 of these....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Unlike pakistan, we have wide range and variety of battle radars, India has made AESA radar for Your Kind Information which is Being Used In Our AWACS, and We are also in The process Of Miniaturizing it, and It Might not be used In LCA but in the next project we take up, that is MCA.......
> 
> And Kaveri is as Capable as the engine by which JF-17 runs now, But IAF want its Thrust to be Over 92KN, that is Why Kaveri is still not used...
> 
> And Please Stop Insulting When Your own country does not have the capability to make engines, radars or Avionics..... India has Made these years ago, but the Only thing is Its not meeting the Standards of IAF....



kavri is nt ready yet and ws-13 is ready since 2007 bt we want an imporved version and the improved version is ready and is tested on jf-17 in march

well india is a large country and has an enemy like china which is decades ahead then you in quality and quantity both 
we with a limited economy budget are still good
only North waziristan operation is remaining and when the terrorism finishes then our economy will be improved and we will spend large amount on defense


----------



## farhan_9909

Tejas-MkII said:


> from when u r start deciding needs of IAF
> 
> and from when 100KN ws-13 is indigenious to u .
> 
> It is developed by china and it is still using core of RD-33 engine.So it is also not even indigenious to china
> 
> PS: I didn't get the head and tail of this line.Please elaborate this time what u want to say:



sorry i mean USA and Uk will nt only upgrade ther engine for you.
you will need only 100 engine becasue after 100 MK2 induction your kaveri with france help will be ready

and as i said chineese weapons are our if we want to pay a little money to them.


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> radar is the 2nd complex thing after engine in the aircraft which is imported frm israel.
> 
> let me tell you your AESA radar timeline
> 
> first etst of lCA by 2016 with indegenous AESA radar
> after test ther are some problem with radar
> 2nd test in 2018 bt has some problem again.
> 3rd test in 2020.it is ready by need some more tests
> 4th test failure program will sign a deal with israel to solve our problem in the radar
> 2022 MASHALLAH Indian/israely radar is ready for LCA MK2.
> 
> after fitting in the aricraft
> 
> oh the radar is out dated
> lets start new project



*INdia and PAKistan after 2025:*

@ india is able to make world class fighter aircraft, advance tank, advance missile, modern Ship and all advance military equiptment.

@ pakistan is still buying military equiptment from china and usa and now also from EU.

u know why it is going to be real bcoz we r trying and investing lot of money in R&D and pakistan is buying rather then trying.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Which Other country has Bought MKK???? and The One thing which makes it cheap is, its Having Indian avionics and Softwares, and Russia is our ally, so Naturally a Subsidy and Obviously when They are getting orders for 300 of these....



indonesia bought MKK.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> kavri is nt ready yet and ws-13 is ready since 2007 bt we want an imporved version and the improved version is ready and is tested on jf-17 in march
> 
> well india is a large country and has an enemy like china which is decades ahead then you in quality and quantity both
> we with a limited economy budget are still good
> only North waziristan operation is remaining and when the terrorism finishes then our economy will be improved and we will spend large amount on defense



Iam talking about Pakistan, why do You have to take the Pride of Chinese Products? we very well Know Chinese are technologically Far superior than Us, But You MR.Are not Chinese So why bother arguing keeping them as base....

When Insulting India, you need to stand as a Pakistani which you are and let us All know what has pakistan done in the field of Engines, Avionics and Radars??? 

China is Our enemy?? In Your dreams, We both are not in good terms as you are with them, that dosent make them our enemy.... Especially when they are Supporting Our Cause.... But an Eye on them is there for sure as they are Your Allies, Nothing personal between us...


----------



## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> *INdia and PAKistan after 2025:*
> 
> @ india is able to make world class fighter aircraft, advance tank, advance missile, modern Ship and all advance military equiptment.
> 
> @ pakistan is still buying military equiptment from china and usa and now also from EU.
> 
> u know why it is going to be real bcoz we r trying and investing lot of money in R&D and pakistan is buying rather then trying.



After jf-17 we will also start our indigious program for fighter.
we hav advance missile already in service.
well what i knw is that

you hav deeloped your frigate and the 4th f-22P will be locally produced and f23P will be JV between china/pak
your only has LCA and we hav jf-17
and about N subs
it need money which we dnt hav
and every one knw india is a decade behind then us in N tech
like your own scientist said pokhran II test were failure which means you dnt hav fusion bombs


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> kavri is nt ready yet and ws-13 is ready since 2007 bt we want an imporved version and the improved version is ready and is tested on jf-17 in march
> 
> well india is a large country and has an enemy like china which is decades ahead then you in quality and quantity both
> we with a limited economy budget are still good
> only North waziristan operation is remaining and when the terrorism finishes then our economy will be improved and we will spend large amount on defense



why do you have to take the Pride of Chinese Products, you my dear are a Pakistani by Person, and when Supporting your cause , You need to compare Your products with Indian Stuffs, as You Insult the Products of Ours...

Now tell me what has Pakistan done in The field of radars , Avionics and Engines,Softwares??

Who told You Chinese are Our enemies? Both of Us are not in good terms with each other, But that dosent make them our enemy.... We have an Eye on them because they are Pakistans allies, Nothing personal between us..... Why would we want to make them enemies when they are standing for our cause and we too are for them...


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> well i think you dnt knw that MKK is nt for chineese only bt many other countries bought su 30MKK
> 
> same case is with the MKI bt MKK cost 53 million and MKI cost 37 million this is why countries dnt buy cheap stuff



according to u:
su-30mki is cheap and poor
tejas is world oldest technology aircraft
our other aircraft r like garbage collection.

than why not pakistani army is not attacking on india. 



*
u know why bcoz pakistani army know it very well that where they stand at the front of india.*


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Iam talking about Pakistan, why do You have to take the Pride of Chinese Products? we very well Know Chinese are technologically Far superior than Us, But You MR.Are not Chinese So why bother arguing keeping them as base....
> 
> When Insulting India, you need to stand as a Pakistani which you are and let us All know what has pakistan done in the field of Engines, Avionics and Radars???
> 
> China is Our enemy?? In Your dreams, We both are not in good terms as you are with them, that dosent make them our enemy.... Especially when they are Supporting Our Cause.... But an Eye on them is there for sure as they are Your Allies, Nothing personal between us...



we are nt bt they offer us what we want even with loan.
wher i insulted india?
you dnt hav any engine operatinal.
no aircraft radar 
only some parts of aircraft avionics which we are developing for jf-17 too
and china claimed arunchunap pardesh and they will never leave it for you
your growing a problem for them
and definately they dnt want you in the world market


----------



## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> according to u:
> su-30mki is cheap and poor
> tejas is world oldest technology aircraft
> our other aircraft r like garbage collection.
> 
> than why not pakistani army is not attacking on india.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> u know why bcoz pakistani army know it very well that where they stand at the front of india.*



i can ask you a same question
when our chief of army staff said we are wage a war with china/pakistan at a same time
and after a week he said our 705 tanks are night blind

why dnt you attack us

when you can wage war with pak/china at a same time then why nt first wipe out pakistan..

*note our kiyaani dnt make stupid claims*


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> indonesia bought MKK.



Indonasia Uses MK not MKK I guess, and The sukhoi 30 which malasia and algeria uses has Indian Avionics In It...

And The Suk 30 MKI is special as Its not a variant, but a Different Class of Aircraft Jointly Done by India and Russia, But others are just variants...


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> well ther is no current upgration program like ws-13.
> with the help of china in future we can even increase it thrust above 100Kn



WS-13 is still couple of years away from induction and EJ-2000 is one of the most sophisticated and tested engines around 

Pls read more before dumping crap


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> After jf-17 we will also start our indigious program for fighter.
> we hav advance missile already in service.
> well what i knw is that
> 
> you hav deeloped your frigate and the 4th f-22P will be locally produced and f23P will be JV between china/pak
> your only has LCA and we hav jf-17
> and about N subs
> it need money which we dnt hav
> and every one knw india is a decade behind then us in N tech
> like your own scientist said pokhran II test were failure which means you dnt hav fusion bombs



u told "4th f-22P will be locally produced"
building the aircraft and ship is not a big thing actually inventing the technology is hard pakistan is building not inventing. india is building aircraft from 3 decades.

and please i know now u attack on me. but u can't hide the truth that india is much develop than pakistan. please don't argue with me.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> we are nt bt they offer us what we want even with loan.



Anything in loan make that You have R&D and made it?



farhan_9909 said:


> wher i insulted india?



Where Have You not?? turn back and see,Your tries to be little India.



farhan_9909 said:


> you dnt hav any engine operatinal.



We do have, Kaveri, and thats Operational, Its battle ready, but dosent meet the standards of IAF..(92kn thrust)



farhan_9909 said:


> no aircraft radar



MMR, LSP 4 flew with it.



farhan_9909 said:


> only some parts of aircraft avionics which we are developing for jf-17 too



No ,100&#37; avionics Including The much Complicated *FBW*



farhan_9909 said:


> and china claimed arunchunap pardesh and they will never leave it for you



Who cares as long as We are conducting votes there, Part of sensex and everything...



farhan_9909 said:


> your growing a problem for them
> and definately they dnt want you in the world market



But others want us, they are not the Only country or the Lords of Planet...Might be to you, not for us.

Still Iam waiting to hear from You, where Is Pakistans, Avionics,Engines,Radars and Softwares??? List it please...


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> well the su 35 use every thing russian and russian planes are nt as expensive as westerns are.bt the su 35 cost 65millio plus
> every thing MKi is frm forign
> Avionics frm france,israel and russia
> engine russian
> airframe russian
> ejection seat even frm forign
> 
> bt still very much cheap
> 
> and we are getting f-16 block 52 for 69Million


every time you calling MkI cheaper in March in want to purchase additional order for 40-42 MKI which come around 2.5-3.0 Billion Dollar. did you think it is cheap


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> i can ask you a same question
> when our chief of army staff said we are wage a war with china/pakistan at a same time
> and after a week he said our 705 tanks are night blind
> 
> why dnt you attack us
> 
> when you can wage war with pak/china at a same time then why nt first wipe out pakistan..
> 
> *note our kiyaani dnt make stupid claims*


*

our history is proof that who attack first in 1948,1962,1965,1971 and latest 1999.
india is a peaceful country we don't want any conflict with any one. what ever our leaders and army officers comment on pakistan but u and rest of world knows it very well that india will never first attack on pakistan.

in my personal opinion that 95 % indian don't like that we fight with pakistan in any situation and i am in 95%.*


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> After jf-17 we will also start our indigious program for fighter.
> we hav advance missile already in service.
> well what i knw is that
> 
> you hav deeloped your frigate and the 4th f-22P will be locally produced and f23P will be JV between china/pak
> your only has LCA and we hav jf-17
> and about N subs
> it need money which we dnt hav
> and every one knw india is a decade behind then us in N tech
> like your own scientist said pokhran II test were failure which means you dnt hav fusion bombs



Why be stingy while telling, 

1 We have developed destroyers, Pakistan has not

2 We have made frigates Pakistan has Not

3 We have made N Submarines,Pakistan has Not

4 We are making Aircraft carriers (Under construction), Pakistan has no plans for it

5 India has Made SAM's, Pakistan has not

6 India has Made Fire and Forget 3rd gen Anti,Tank Missile pakistan has Not

7 India has made Under water launched Missile for Submarine. Sagarika,K-15, Pakistan has Not

8 India has Made AESA and MMR but pakistan has not even planned for one

9 India has made 100&#37; avionics,Softwares,Airframes and designing for an Aircraft, pakistan has not

10 India Has Started the development for 5th gen aircrafts, Pakistan Has not

11 India has been making Corvettes , has pakistan?

And the List goes On......... If You want I can make a Huge list comprising of 100's of things... this is just a trailer

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## peacemaker10

The issue of slightly lower speed and acceleration is known for sometime now. However, so much of money being pumped into the LCA project that I expect DRDO to clearly highlight the shortcomings the plane is facing and give some explanation what sort of measures DRDO is taking. 

I am sure all the countries who design the planes themselves must be having some sort of difficulties and we are no different but it is always good to know the weak points and work on it.

Hopefully they sort out the new engine soon and make desired structural changes in LCA MK2 to ratify all the current problems. 

I can't wait to see LCA get IOC this year, I am pretty sure once out it gonna surprise many of us here. The thing about DRDO is that they deliver late but when they have its top notch.


----------



## shiningindia

IndianArmy said:


> Why be stingy while telling,
> 
> 1 We have developed destroyers, Pakistan has not
> 
> 2 We have made frigates Pakistan has Not
> 
> 3 We have made N Submarines,Pakistan has Not
> 
> 4 We are making Aircraft carriers (Under construction), Pakistan has no plans for it
> 
> 5 India has Made SAM's, Pakistan has not
> 
> 6 India has Made Fire and Forget 3rd gen Anti,Tank Missile pakistan has Not
> 
> 7 India has made Under water launched Missile for Submarine. Sagarika,K-15, Pakistan has Not
> 
> 8 India has Made AESA and MMR but pakistan has not even planned for one
> 
> 9 India has made 100% avionics,Softwares,Airframes and designing for an Aircraft, pakistan has not
> 
> 10 India Has Started the development for 5th gen aircrafts, Pakistan Has not
> 
> 11 India has been making Corvettes , has pakistan?
> 
> And the List goes On......... If You want I can make a Huge list comprising of 100's of things... this is just a trailer



please don't waste ur time bcoz they will never believe on that. and they again blame that all r not working.


----------



## Dark Angel

IndianArmy said:


> Why be stingy while telling,
> 
> 1 We have developed destroyers, Pakistan has not
> 
> 2 We have made frigates Pakistan has Not
> 
> 3 We have made N Submarines,Pakistan has Not
> 
> 4 We are making Aircraft carriers (Under construction), Pakistan has no plans for it
> 
> 5 India has Made SAM's, Pakistan has not
> 
> 6 India has Made Fire and Forget 3rd gen Anti,Tank Missile pakistan has Not
> 
> 7 India has made Under water launched Missile for Submarine. Sagarika,K-15, Pakistan has Not
> 
> 8 India has Made AESA and MMR but pakistan has not even planned for one
> 
> 9 India has made 100% avionics,Softwares,Airframes and designing for an Aircraft, pakistan has not
> 
> 10 India Has Started the development for 5th gen aircrafts, Pakistan Has not
> 
> 11 India has been making Corvettes , has pakistan?
> 
> And the List goes On......... If You want I can make a Huge list comprising of 100's of things... this is just a trailer




Wah Wah, Wah Wah kya bat hai apne to chupe hone ki goli de di


----------



## shiningindia

Dark Angel said:


> Wah Wah, Wah Wah kya bat hai apne to chupe hone ki goli de di


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> and every one knw india is a decade behind then us in N tech
> like your own scientist said pokhran II test were failure which means you dnt hav fusion bombs



No we are 2 decades behind, we tested it 2 decades before u tested, so mathematically it was Incorrect..... Did You hear what APJ Abdul Kalam had to say about our test, if Not please do listen to him.....


----------



## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> u told "4th f-22P will be locally produced"
> building the aircraft and ship is not a big thing actually inventing the technology is hard pakistan is building not inventing. india is building aircraft from 3 decades.
> 
> and please i know now u attack on me. but u can't hide the truth that india is much develop than pakistan. please don't argue with me.



what has india invented?the frigate yes you did it
the N subs..no no you didnt actually in the 19th century russia leases its N sub to you..
getting experiance frm them which you people call reverse engineering 
and then even take an decade to develop a sub with RE.
yes i cant hide the truth

you hav indigious friagate/destroeyer.bt we dnt need a good navy against india because for india/pak war we only need a better air force and army..

you need a better navy because your current fleet is nt 1/4th of the china navy fleet


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Anything in loan make that You have R&D and made it?
> 
> 
> 
> Where Have You not?? turn back and see,Your tries to be little India.
> 
> 
> 
> We do have, Kaveri, and thats Operational, Its battle ready, but dosent meet the standards of IAF..(92kn thrust)
> 
> 
> 
> MMR, LSP 4 flew with it.
> 
> 
> 
> No ,100% avionics Including The much Complicated *FBW*
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares as long as We are conducting votes there, Part of sensex and everything...
> 
> 
> 
> But others want us, they are not the Only country or the Lords of Planet...Might be to you, not for us.
> 
> Still Iam waiting to hear from You, where Is Pakistans, Avionics,Engines,Radars and Softwares??? List it please...



well if in development stages things come operational for yu
then chineese ws-10,ws-10,s-10c,ws-1g.ws-13,ws-13A,ws-12,ws-15(190Kn thrust engine) are operational
and plzz give me the link for that IAF want 92Kn thrust frm Kaveri


----------



## farhan_9909

shiningindia said:


> our history is proof that who attack first in 1948,1962,1965,1971 and latest 1999.
> india is a peaceful country we don't want any conflict with any one. what ever our leaders and army officers comment on pakistan but u and rest of world knows it very well that india will never first attack on pakistan.
> 
> in my personal opinion that 95 % indian don't like that we fight with pakistan in any situation and i am in 95%.



1965 and 71 war started bby pak...:O
wow sirr frm wher you listen this intresting indo-pak war stories plzz can you paste the link i will read them when i am bore..thanx in advance

sir jii 65 started by you and the ayub khan audio recording is still available on youtube.you people attacked sialkot by your airforce
and 71 is an open story
we were busy in civil war and you entere your army in bangladesh and attack west pakistan frm back..


----------



## Titanium

peacemaker10 said:


> The issue of slightly lower speed and acceleration is known for sometime now. However, so much of money being pumped into the LCA project that I expect DRDO to clearly highlight the shortcomings the plane is facing and give some explanation what sort of measures DRDO is taking.
> 
> I am sure all the countries who design the planes themselves must be having some sort of difficulties and we are no different but it is always good to know the weak points and work on it.
> 
> Hopefully they sort out the new engine soon and make desired structural changes in LCA MK2 to ratify all the current problems.
> 
> I can't wait to see LCA get IOC this year*, I am pretty sure once out it gonna surprise many of us here. *The thing about DRDO is that they deliver late but when they have its top notch.




Well, It was surprising for me atleast, that the director of LCA program Subramanium, compared LCA to be no more than Mig-21 , which itself is 50 years old design.

You know, when it program director has such low expectation of LCA, no wonder Air-force, as articulated by its airmarshal is not enthusiastic.

They seem just going through the motion, with no one brave enough to call spade a spade.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well if in development stages things come operational for yu
> then chineese ws-10,ws-10,s-10c,ws-1g.ws-13,ws-13A,ws-12,ws-15(190Kn thrust engine) are operational
> and plzz give me the link for that IAF want 92Kn thrust frm Kaveri



Otherwise wouldnt we have used the AL-31 FP engine ,R25 engine,R-29B engine, which India has been producing... And IAF has Listed out all the Engines for LCA above 92Kn thrust, So its a basic common sense that They want an Engine above 92kn thrust....

Now please give me a link where it states WS-15 with 190KN thrust is operational??? And Where is pakistan's Engines,Avionics,Softwares and Radars? Why are You hiding that from us


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Why be stingy while telling,
> 
> 1 We have developed destroyers, Pakistan has not
> 
> 2 We have made frigates Pakistan has Not
> 
> 3 We have made N Submarines,Pakistan has Not
> 
> 4 We are making Aircraft carriers (Under construction), Pakistan has no plans for it
> 
> 5 India has Made SAM's, Pakistan has not
> 
> 6 India has Made Fire and Forget 3rd gen Anti,Tank Missile pakistan has Not
> 
> 7 India has made Under water launched Missile for Submarine. Sagarika,K-15, Pakistan has Not
> 
> 8 India has Made AESA and MMR but pakistan has not even planned for one
> 
> 9 India has made 100% avionics,Softwares,Airframes and designing for an Aircraft, pakistan has not
> 
> 10 India Has Started the development for 5th gen aircrafts, Pakistan Has not
> 
> 11 India has been making Corvettes , has pakistan?
> 
> And the List goes On......... If You want I can make a Huge list comprising of 100's of things... this is just a trailer



Karachi Shipyard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia take this frm the frigate claim
sub marine with the help of.....rrr
well we dnt need an aircraft carrier.you need it because of china
check about anza missile
check about bakhtiar shiken
jf-17 is a JV and we are making airframe,avionics,in pak locally.
starting any program doesnt mean you hav it now..we will start our own aircraft program bt our budget is almost used in WOT.


----------



## Hasnain2009

IndianArmy said:


> Why be stingy while telling,
> 
> 1 We have developed destroyers, Pakistan has not
> 
> 2 We have made frigates Pakistan has Not
> 
> 3 We have made N Submarines,Pakistan has Not
> 
> 4 We are making Aircraft carriers (Under construction), Pakistan has no plans for it
> 
> 5 India has Made SAM's, Pakistan has not
> 
> 6 India has Made Fire and Forget 3rd gen Anti,Tank Missile pakistan has Not
> 
> 7 India has made Under water launched Missile for Submarine. Sagarika,K-15, Pakistan has Not
> 
> 8 India has Made AESA and MMR but pakistan has not even planned for one
> 
> 9 India has made 100&#37; avionics,Softwares,Airframes and designing for an Aircraft, pakistan has not
> 
> 10 India Has Started the development for 5th gen aircrafts, Pakistan Has not
> 
> 11 India has been making Corvettes , has pakistan?
> 
> And the List goes On......... If You want I can make a Huge list comprising of 100's of things... this is just a trailer



#12 India gives this impression when pakistan buy weapons;





and pakistan doesnt.


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> #12 India gives this impression when pakistan buy something;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> an pakistan doesnt.



We saw that When Gilani Curbed In front of NATO, Atleast My Prime Minister Dosent do that....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Otherwise wouldnt we have used the AL-31 FP engine ,R25 engine,R-29B engine, which India has been producing... And IAF has Listed out all the Engines for LCA above 92Kn thrust, So its a basic common sense that They want an Engine above 92kn thrust....
> 
> Now please give me a link where it states WS-15 with 190KN thrust is operational??? And Where is pakistan's Engines,Avionics,Softwares and Radars? Why are You hiding that from us



i said if engine in development emans operational to you then ws-15 is operational.check in wiki ws-15 engine will power j-xx and j-10B which thrust is 190KN similar to the engine of f-35


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> i said if engine in development emans operational to you then ws-15 is operational.check in wiki ws-15 engine will power j-xx and j-10B which thrust is 190KN similar to the engine of f-35



Ok then show me where it has been Used to Power an Aircraft, Kaveri Powered LCA, IL-76.....

*Please dont hide from my question where is Pakistans Engines, Avionics ,Softwares,Avionics????*


----------



## Hasnain2009

IndianArmy said:


> We saw that When Gilani Curbed In front of NATO, Atleast My Prime Minister Dosent do that....



lol...that was just smart tactics by PM, so that today no one in pakistan will oppose increase in pakistan's defense budget which is going to be presented in parliament this evening!


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> lol...that was just smart tactics by PM, so that today no one in pakistan will oppose increase in pakistan's defense budget which is going to be presented in parliament this evening!



So, the Conclusion is, We were Smart even before You realized what smartness Is.... Chapter closed.... Hence the proof...


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> what has india invented?the frigate yes you did it
> the N subs..no no you didnt *actually in the 19th century russia leases its N sub to you..*
> getting experiance frm them which you people call reverse engineering
> and then even take an decade to develop a sub with RE.
> yes i cant hide the truth
> 
> you hav indigious friagate/destroeyer.bt we dnt need a good navy against india because for india/pak war we only need a better air force and army..
> 
> you need a better navy because your current fleet is nt 1/4th of the china navy fleet





What are u on dude, we are living in the 21 century and Subs werent even invented in the 19 Century 

This shows ur intellectual level and proves that ur a Fanboy

P.S Its very difficult to understand ur post grammatically


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Ok then show me where it has been Used to Power an Aircraft, Kaveri Powered LCA, IL-76.....
> 
> *Please dont hide from my question where is Pakistans Engines, Avionics ,Softwares,Avionics????*



it is in development..how can it power any aircraft.
ws-10(thrust is frm 129-155KN) and is powering j-11BS aircraft adn chineese confimed it in the FC-20 thrread

wher i said pakistan has its own engine.pakistan were involved in the ws-13-12 project so it is a jv and PAC will manufacture it locally within few years.
softwares and avionics project is launched.
and check about the upgrade of f-7 many indegenous avionics were deelopd for f-7


----------



## merajahmed

Titanium said:


> Well, It was surprising for me atleast, that the director of LCA program Subramanium, compared LCA to be no more than Mig-21 , which itself is 50 years old design.
> 
> You know, when it program director has such low expectation of LCA, no wonder Air-force, as articulated by its airmarshal is not enthusiastic.
> 
> They seem just going through the motion, with no one brave enough to call spade a spade.



Coz. it is designed to replace Mig-21. A smaller aircraft with modern avionics.


----------



## farhan_9909

Dark Angel said:


> What are u on dude, we are living in the 21 century and Subs werent even invented in the 19 Century
> 
> This shows ur intellectual level and proves that ur a Fanboy
> 
> P.S Its very difficult to understand ur post grammatically



oh yes i mean 20th century

my english is very bad.ignore it.


----------



## Hasnain2009

IndianArmy said:


> So, the Conclusion is, We were Smart even before You realized what smartness Is.... Chapter closed.... Hence the proof...



Just survey in your own country who is smart!

1. Manmohan Singh/Sonia Gandhi

2. Rtd Gen. Parvez Musharraf


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> After jf-17 we will also start our indigious program for fighter.
> we hav advance missile already in service.
> well what i knw is that
> 
> you hav deeloped your frigate and the 4th f-22P will be locally produced and f23P will be JV between china/pak
> your only has LCA and we hav jf-17
> and about N subs
> it need money which we dnt hav
> and every one knw india is a decade behind then us in N tech
> like your own scientist said pokhran II test were failure which means you dnt hav fusion bombs


Honey you are locally produced as license transfer by china the 4th f-22p and when it will be inducted our navy has indigenous built Aircraft Carrier did you ever think even you good friend china not built. from now we are builting Stealth FFG (Shivalik class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), DDG (Kolkata class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), corvette (Kamorta class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) *it is better then you F-22p*, Nuk sub (Arihant class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and for kaveri (12 MW marine gas turbine engine derived from the Kaveri jet engine is doing fine and will be used for propelling naval craft.) next four or five yr. and may be it will you for FMBT.


----------



## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> i said if engine in development emans operational to you then ws-15 is operational.check in wiki ws-15 engine will power j-xx and j-10B which thrust is 190KN similar to the engine of f-35




WS-15 is not operational, not even in Wiki does it say that


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> it is in development..how can it power any aircraft.
> ws-10(thrust is frm 129-155KN) and is powering j-11BS aircraft adn chineese confimed it in the FC-20 thrread
> 
> wher i said pakistan has its own engine.pakistan were involved in the ws-13-12 project so it is a jv and PAC will manufacture it locally within few years.
> softwares and avionics project is launched.
> and check about the upgrade of f-7 many indegenous avionics were deelopd for f-7



That dosent make any sense, You have No avionics, radars, Engines and Softwares and try to Belittle Indian products, Please Step aside as You have No license to Criticize when You Yourself are not capable enough, Join in when Your Country achieves that Status....

HAL manufactures engines for MKI (AL-31FP) Thrust of 123Kn, Does that make it ours??? Please, Dont take the credits of Chinese.... If Your country has done something remarkable in this field , Please share it, Dont Push Chinese stuffs....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> Honey you are locally produced as license transfer by china the 4th f-22p and when it will be inducted our navy has indigenous built Aircraft Carrier did you ever think even you good friend china not built. from now we are builting Stealth FFG (Shivalik class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), DDG (Kolkata class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), corvette (Kamorta class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) *it is better then you F-22p*, Nuk sub (Arihant class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and for kaveri (12 MW marine gas turbine engine derived from the Kaveri jet engine is doing fine and will be used for propelling naval craft.) next four or five yr. and may be it will you for FMBT.



we will manufacture indigenous f-23P
we need a destroyer bt dnt hav money and we dnt need a N sub or aircraft carrier.


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> Just survey in your own country who is smart!
> 
> 1. Manmohan Singh/Sonia Gandhi
> 
> 2. Rtd Gen. Parvez Musharraf



You forgot Mr Lalu , He is been Offended now....You will pay the price for it..


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> we need a destroyer bt dnt hav money and we dnt need a N sub or aircraft carrier.



Why dont you tell it in simple terms that, Your country has no aspiration,Technology,Infrastructure to Move ahead, India too dint have money when we Aspired to explore the space.... So its a silly excuse to say we dont have money...



farhan_9909 said:


> we will manufacture indigenous f-23P.



And its just like saying India building 6 scorpene Submarines indigenously


----------



## Hasnain2009

farhan_9909 said:


> we will manufacture indigenous f-23P
> we need a destroyer bt dnt hav money and we dnt need a N sub or aircraft carrier.



We just need Pakistan National Command Authority to disclose its max weapon yields and the range of improved versions of Babur Cruise Missiles to stop our neighbors trolling!


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> That dosent make any sense, You have No avionics, radars, Engines and Softwares and try to Belittle Indian products, Please Step aside as You have No license to Criticize when You Yourself are not capable enough, Join in when Your Country achieves that Status....
> 
> HAL manufactures engines for MKI (AL-31FP) Thrust of 123Kn, Does that make it ours??? Please, Dont take the credits of Chinese.... If Your country has done something remarkable in this field , Please share it, Dont Push Chinese stuffs....



DailyMuslims - Pakistan?s Success Story: First Indigenous JF-17 Thunder Squadron Deployment
pakistan engineer are involved in the ws-13 development so it is a JV 
JV and indigenous are almost same
ihttp://www.pac.org.pk/karfsite-final/index.html
pakistan already has many indigenous avionics for the f-7 and now production for jf-17 is started


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> We just need Pakistan National Command Authority to disclose its max weapon yields and the range of improved versions of Babur Cruise Missiles to stop our neighbors trolling!



And If We do the same, Your nation will go bankrupt, as You will realize You have not reached even One percent what India has done in this field.


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> well if in development stages things come operational for yu
> then chineese ws-10,ws-10,s-10c,ws-1g.ws-13,ws-13A,ws-12,ws-15(190Kn thrust engine) are operational
> and plzz give me the link for that IAF want 92Kn thrust frm Kaveri


bhaiye kuch apna bhi to baato sab kuch Chinese maal hai aapka to ek bhi nahi hai. hum yahh India - pak ki baat kar rahe hai na ki india - china ki


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> DailyMuslims - Pakistan?s Success Story: First Indigenous JF-17 Thunder Squadron Deployment
> pakistan engineer are involved in the ws-13 development so it is a JV
> JV and indigenous are almost same
> ihttp://www.pac.org.pk/karfsite-final/index.html
> pakistan already has many indigenous avionics for the f-7 and now production for jf-17 is started



wonderful, May I know what avionics has Pakistan given for F-7?? and If You call JV Indigenous, then I say MKI Indigenous, and So does its powerful 123Kn engine..... ... 

First make Avionics then Argue,*Dont count the chicken's before they Hatch*


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Why dont you tell it in simple terms that, Your country has no aspiration,Technology,Infrastructure to Move ahead, India too dint have money when we Aspired to explore the space.... So its a silly excuse to say we dont have money...
> 
> 
> 
> And its just like saying India building 6 scorpene Submarines indigenously



well f22P is different and f-23P is different.
f-23P will be a upgraded variant of f22P week back this was a news.
well we hav every thing,brain bt we are busy in WOT since the last 5 years and we are spending almost our budget in ther.
as it is said before 2010 is the last year for all operation in pakistan.
only North waziristan operation is remaining which will b ended in 3 months.

I am personally frm North waziristan and i knw here are nt terrorist in large numbers.


----------



## Hasnain2009

IndianArmy said:


> And If We do the same, Your nation will go bankrupt, as You will realize You have not reached even One percent what India has done in this field.



India lags behind Pakistan in missiles​
*NEW DELHI:* With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena. *The only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile.* 

Though the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles are being "inducted" into the armed forces, it will take "some time" for them to become "fully-operational in the numbers required". 

Defence sources said the armed forces were still in the process of undertaking the "training trials" of Agni-I and Agni-II to give them the requisite capabilities to fire them on their own. 

Of the two, the progress report of Agni-I, tested for the first time in January 2002 to plug the operational gap between Prithvi (150-350 km) and Agni-II missiles, is much better. The Army has already conducted two "user training trials", one in October 2007 and other in March 2008, of the Pakistan-specific Agni-I missile. 

The fourth test of 3,500-km Agni-III, which will give India the strategic capability to hit targets deep inside China, is also on the anvil now. But Agni-III, tested successfully only twice in April 2007 and May 2008, will not be ready for induction before 2012. 

Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. "We should be ready to test Agni-V by 2010-2011," said an official. 

So, in effect, the missile report card is rather dismal at present. "Unlike Pakistan, our programme is indigenous. But a strategic missile needs to be tested 10 to 15 times, over a variety of flight envelopes and targets, before it can be said to be fully-operational. A missile cannot be dubbed ready just after three to four tests," said an expert. 

Keeping this benchmark in mind, only Prithvi can be dubbed to be fully ready. Defence PSUs like Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd, in fact, are stepping up production of the different Prithvi variants. 

Army, for instance, has orders worth Rs 1,500 crore for 75 Prithvi-I and 62 Prithvi-II missiles, while IAF has gone in for 63 Prithvi-II missiles for over Rs 900 crore. 

Navy, in turn, has ordered Dhanush missiles, the naval version of Prithvi, with a 350 km strike range, for its "dual-tasked" warships, INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna. 

India wants to gatecrash into the very exclusive club of `Big-Five' countries like Russia, US and China, which have both ICBMs (missiles with strike ranges over 5,500-km) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles), before 2015. 

The SLBM quest is specifically crucial since it's the most effective and secure leg of the "nuclear weapon triad", with land-based missiles and aircraft capable of delivering nuclear bombs constituting the first two components. 

The initial range of K-15 SLBM being developed by DRDO will, however, be limited to 750-km, far less than the over 5,000-km range SLBMs brandished by the `Big-5' countries. 

The plan is to go for higher strike ranges after the initial K-15 missiles are integrated into the indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) programme.

------------------------------------------------

yeah you people are ahead!


----------



## shiningindia

Hasnain2009 said:


> #12 India gives this impression when pakistan buy weapons;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and pakistan doesnt.



no...india is weeping bcoz india's son pak is wasting money on buying weapon rather than invest it on development.


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> bhaiye kuch apna bhi to baato sab kuch Chinese maal hai aapka to ek bhi nahi hai. hum yahh India - pak ki baat kar rahe hai na ki india - china ki



yaar jab china hay hi aisa dost tho kia kare..

now dnt say russia is your friend and all russian weapons are your

because they are selling arms to your rival china
and they said jf-17 is 3rd generation aircraft we hav to supplly engine for jf-17 to pak.they are fooling you.


----------



## shrivatsa

^^^^^^^you believe in these article


----------



## shrivatsa

Hasnain2009 said:


> India lags behind Pakistan in missiles​
> *NEW DELHI:* With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena. *The only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile.*
> 
> Though the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles are being "inducted" into the armed forces, it will take "some time" for them to become "fully-operational in the numbers required".
> 
> Defence sources said the armed forces were still in the process of undertaking the "training trials" of Agni-I and Agni-II to give them the requisite capabilities to fire them on their own.
> 
> Of the two, the progress report of Agni-I, tested for the first time in January 2002 to plug the operational gap between Prithvi (150-350 km) and Agni-II missiles, is much better. The Army has already conducted two "user training trials", one in October 2007 and other in March 2008, of the Pakistan-specific Agni-I missile.
> 
> The fourth test of 3,500-km Agni-III, which will give India the strategic capability to hit targets deep inside China, is also on the anvil now. But Agni-III, tested successfully only twice in April 2007 and May 2008, will not be ready for induction before 2012.
> 
> Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. "We should be ready to test Agni-V by 2010-2011," said an official.
> 
> So, in effect, the missile report card is rather dismal at present. "Unlike Pakistan, our programme is indigenous. But a strategic missile needs to be tested 10 to 15 times, over a variety of flight envelopes and targets, before it can be said to be fully-operational. A missile cannot be dubbed ready just after three to four tests," said an expert.
> 
> Keeping this benchmark in mind, only Prithvi can be dubbed to be fully ready. Defence PSUs like Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd, in fact, are stepping up production of the different Prithvi variants.
> 
> Army, for instance, has orders worth Rs 1,500 crore for 75 Prithvi-I and 62 Prithvi-II missiles, while IAF has gone in for 63 Prithvi-II missiles for over Rs 900 crore.
> 
> Navy, in turn, has ordered Dhanush missiles, the naval version of Prithvi, with a 350 km strike range, for its "dual-tasked" warships, INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna.
> 
> India wants to gatecrash into the very exclusive club of `Big-Five' countries like Russia, US and China, which have both ICBMs (missiles with strike ranges over 5,500-km) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles), before 2015.
> 
> The SLBM quest is specifically crucial since it's the most effective and secure leg of the "nuclear weapon triad", with land-based missiles and aircraft capable of delivering nuclear bombs constituting the first two components.
> 
> The initial range of K-15 SLBM being developed by DRDO will, however, be limited to 750-km, far less than the over 5,000-km range SLBMs brandished by the `Big-5' countries.
> 
> The plan is to go for higher strike ranges after the initial K-15 missiles are integrated into the indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) programme.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> yeah you people are ahead!



a ballistic missile to be operational requires to be tested minimum 15 times how time has pakistan tested each of there missiles


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well f22P is different and f-23P is different.
> f-23P will be a upgraded variant of f22P week back this was a news.
> well we hav every thing,brain bt we are busy in WOT since the last 5 years and we are spending almost our budget in ther.



So an Upgraded Chinese frigate jointly done by Pak and China is Indigenous?



farhan_9909 said:


> as it is said before 2010 is the last year for all operation in pakistan.
> only North waziristan operation is remaining which will b ended in 3 months.



Irrelevant to My query of Questions



farhan_9909 said:


> I am personally frm North waziristan and i knw here are nt terrorist in large numbers.



Whats Your Point???


----------



## Hasnain2009

shrivatsa said:


> ^^^^^^^you believe in these article








you can find 1000's of videos like this of india!


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> India lags behind Pakistan in missiles​
> *NEW DELHI:* With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena. *The only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile.*
> 
> Though the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles are being "inducted" into the armed forces, it will take "some time" for them to become "fully-operational in the numbers required".
> 
> Defence sources said the armed forces were still in the process of undertaking the "training trials" of Agni-I and Agni-II to give them the requisite capabilities to fire them on their own.
> 
> Of the two, the progress report of Agni-I, tested for the first time in January 2002 to plug the operational gap between Prithvi (150-350 km) and Agni-II missiles, is much better. The Army has already conducted two "user training trials", one in October 2007 and other in March 2008, of the Pakistan-specific Agni-I missile.
> 
> The fourth test of 3,500-km Agni-III, which will give India the strategic capability to hit targets deep inside China, is also on the anvil now. But Agni-III, tested successfully only twice in April 2007 and May 2008, will not be ready for induction before 2012.
> 
> Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. "We should be ready to test Agni-V by 2010-2011," said an official.
> 
> So, in effect, the missile report card is rather dismal at present. "Unlike Pakistan, our programme is indigenous. But a strategic missile needs to be tested 10 to 15 times, over a variety of flight envelopes and targets, before it can be said to be fully-operational. A missile cannot be dubbed ready just after three to four tests," said an expert.
> 
> Keeping this benchmark in mind, only Prithvi can be dubbed to be fully ready. Defence PSUs like Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd, in fact, are stepping up production of the different Prithvi variants.
> 
> Army, for instance, has orders worth Rs 1,500 crore for 75 Prithvi-I and 62 Prithvi-II missiles, while IAF has gone in for 63 Prithvi-II missiles for over Rs 900 crore.
> 
> Navy, in turn, has ordered Dhanush missiles, the naval version of Prithvi, with a 350 km strike range, for its "dual-tasked" warships, INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna.
> 
> India wants to gatecrash into the very exclusive club of `Big-Five' countries like Russia, US and China, which have both ICBMs (missiles with strike ranges over 5,500-km) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles), before 2015.
> 
> The SLBM quest is specifically crucial since it's the most effective and secure leg of the "nuclear weapon triad", with land-based missiles and aircraft capable of delivering nuclear bombs constituting the first two components.
> 
> The initial range of K-15 SLBM being developed by DRDO will, however, be limited to 750-km, far less than the over 5,000-km range SLBMs brandished by the `Big-5' countries.
> 
> The plan is to go for higher strike ranges after the initial K-15 missiles are integrated into the indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) programme.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> yeah you people are ahead!



Our media is worst according to You, why choose it.... No media would fetch a countries actual secrets...


----------



## My-Analogous

merajahmed said:


> Coz. it is designed to replace Mig-21. A smaller aircraft with modern avionics.



Same here for JF17 and you guys compare it with Medium combat aircraft like MKI etc.

I remember and remember well JF 17 is a solution for light combat aircraft like LCA etc.


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> we will manufacture indigenous f-23P
> we need a destroyer bt dnt hav money and we dnt need a N sub or aircraft carrier.


can you share the link with us and plz dnt give license version base on so n so ......


----------



## Hasnain2009

IndianArmy said:


> Our media is worst according to You, why choose it.... No media would fetch a countries actual secrets...



yes you are 200% rite! Indian Media cant show secret videos like this one!






you can find 1000's of videos like this of india!


----------



## IndianArmy

Hasnain2009 said:


> YouTube - Indian Missile Test Failure
> 
> you can find 1000's of videos like this of india!



Yes Pakistanis are good at faking, enjoy the Un faked video of this, It might Amaze You...'


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> wonderful, May I know what avionics has Pakistan given for F-7?? and If You call JV Indigenous, then I say MKI Indigenous, and So does its powerful 123Kn engine..... ...
> 
> First make Avionics then Argue,*Dont count the chicken's before they Hatch*



whatever it is we will manufacture ws-13 locally which will help in indegenousness and in future we will develop our own if needed


----------



## shrivatsa

Hasnain2009 said:


> YouTube - Indian Missile Test Failure
> 
> you can find 1000's of videos like this of india!



show me one indian missile which looks like that otherwise accept you are trolling


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> whatever it is we will manufacture ws-13 locally which will help in indegenousness and in future we will develop our own if needed



As of now You have nothing Indigenous, Is that what u just said?


----------



## shiningindia

Hasnain2009 said:


> India lags behind Pakistan in missiles​
> *NEW DELHI:* With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena. *The only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile.*
> 
> Though the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles are being "inducted" into the armed forces, it will take "some time" for them to become "fully-operational in the numbers required".
> 
> Defence sources said the armed forces were still in the process of undertaking the "training trials" of Agni-I and Agni-II to give them the requisite capabilities to fire them on their own.
> 
> Of the two, the progress report of Agni-I, tested for the first time in January 2002 to plug the operational gap between Prithvi (150-350 km) and Agni-II missiles, is much better. The Army has already conducted two "user training trials", one in October 2007 and other in March 2008, of the Pakistan-specific Agni-I missile.
> 
> The fourth test of 3,500-km Agni-III, which will give India the strategic capability to hit targets deep inside China, is also on the anvil now. But Agni-III, tested successfully only twice in April 2007 and May 2008, will not be ready for induction before 2012.
> 
> Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. "We should be ready to test Agni-V by 2010-2011," said an official.
> 
> So, in effect, the missile report card is rather dismal at present. "Unlike Pakistan, our programme is indigenous. But a strategic missile needs to be tested 10 to 15 times, over a variety of flight envelopes and targets, before it can be said to be fully-operational. A missile cannot be dubbed ready just after three to four tests," said an expert.
> 
> Keeping this benchmark in mind, only Prithvi can be dubbed to be fully ready. Defence PSUs like Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd, in fact, are stepping up production of the different Prithvi variants.
> 
> Army, for instance, has orders worth Rs 1,500 crore for 75 Prithvi-I and 62 Prithvi-II missiles, while IAF has gone in for 63 Prithvi-II missiles for over Rs 900 crore.
> 
> Navy, in turn, has ordered Dhanush missiles, the naval version of Prithvi, with a 350 km strike range, for its "dual-tasked" warships, INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna.
> 
> India wants to gatecrash into the very exclusive club of `Big-Five' countries like Russia, US and China, which have both ICBMs (missiles with strike ranges over 5,500-km) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles), before 2015.
> 
> The SLBM quest is specifically crucial since it's the most effective and secure leg of the "nuclear weapon triad", with land-based missiles and aircraft capable of delivering nuclear bombs constituting the first two components.
> 
> The initial range of K-15 SLBM being developed by DRDO will, however, be limited to 750-km, far less than the over 5,000-km range SLBMs brandished by the `Big-5' countries.
> 
> The plan is to go for higher strike ranges after the initial K-15 missiles are integrated into the indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) programme.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> yeah you people are ahead!




yaar i has heard it 100s of time. but for ur kind information india's 300 km range missile is enough to reach Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi and all. but u need a long range missile. and how talented ur scientist(sorry manufacturer) r we know that.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> So an Upgraded Chinese frigate jointly done by Pak and China is Indigenous?
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant to My query of Questions
> 
> 
> 
> Whats Your Point???



well chineese will little help us in upgradation like france helped you sorry france gave you kaveri to test it in russia
my point is that the North waziristan peration will be done only in 2-3months because the area has nt that much terrorists.


----------



## Hasnain2009

shiningindia said:


> yaar i has heard it 100s of time. but for ur kind information india's 300 km range missile is enough to reach Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi and all. but u need a long range missile. and how talented ur scientist(sorry manufacturer) r we know that.



Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nobel Prize in Physics (1979)


----------



## shrivatsa

farhan_9909 said:


> well chineese will little help us in upgradation like france helped you sorry france gave you kaveri to test it in russia
> my point is that the North waziristan peration will be done only in 2-3months because the area has nt that much terrorists.



First prove french gave us kaveri then talk


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> can you share the link with us and plz dnt give license version base on so n so ......



Pakistan needs more F-22Ps, not Type 054A
they will only help us little nt like france gave you a otal ready kaveri bt still has many probs..

what eevr it is the f-23P will be called totally indegenous pakisatn in wiki and man other sites


----------



## shrivatsa

Hasnain2009 said:


> Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Nobel Prize in Physics (1979)



dint you guys throw that great man out of pakistan


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> As of now You have nothing Indigenous, Is that what u just said?



yes same like india which even cant test a own program engine in india..


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> well chineese will little help us in upgradation like france helped you sorry france gave you kaveri to test it in russia
> my point is that the North waziristan peration will be done only in 2-3months because the area has nt that much terrorists.



Can You prove that france helped Us make Kaveri from scratch, If you do, then I would Leave PDF, can You do the same if you cannot prove it?

I need a Yes or No answer from you.... go ahead Get Your Best sources, which state Kaveri was Developed from french assistance??


----------



## Dark Angel

Hasnain2009 said:


> YouTube - Indian Missile Test Failure
> 
> you can find 1000's of videos like this of india!




Kuch logo ko JHOOTH ke shahare sari zindagi nikal ni padti hai 


This is the real video which will shake the land ur standing on


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> yaar jab china hay hi aisa dost tho kia kare..
> 
> now dnt say russia is your friend and all russian weapons are your
> 
> because they are selling arms to your rival china
> and they said jf-17 is 3rd generation aircraft we hav to supplly engine for jf-17 to pak.they are fooling you.


I dnt think any of our Indian member dnt say anytime that Russian product is our indigenous product. we have purchase from russia and so many country also. even we are not say that su-30mki is indigenous. that you who alway talk about china when we ask about your achievement in any field


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> yes same like india which even cant test a own program engine in india..



We have been testing it in India..... except for the High altitude testing, That facility is being set up in HAL kanpur....

See our Engines getting tested


----------



## farhan_9909

shrivatsa said:


> First prove french gave us kaveri then talk



oh sorry i was confused it was LCH engine which france developed for you


----------



## !!craft!!

*


ghazaliy2k said:



Same here for JF17 and you guys compare it with Medium combat aircraft like MKI etc.

I remember and remember well JF 17 is a solution for light combat aircraft like LCA etc.

Click to expand...

*

*JF-17 &#8211; Specifications*

Role: Multi-role combat aircraft.
Manufacturer: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
First flight: 25 August 2003.
Introduced: 12 March 2007.
Status: Under serial production and in active service.
Primary user: Pakistan Air Force.
Produced: In Pakistan: January 2008.
Unit cost: US$20 million (estimated).

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 14.0 m
Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles)
Height: 4.77 m
Wing area: 24.4 m&#178;
Empty weight: 6,411 kg
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (including 2&#215; wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg
Power plant: 1&#215; Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN
G-limit: +8.5 g
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
Combat radius: 1,352 km
Ferry range: 3,000 km
Service ceiling: 16,700 m
Thrust/weight: 0.99 

*Armament*

Guns: 1&#215; 23mm internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon.
Hard points: 7 in total (4&#215; under-wing, 2&#215; wing-tip, 1&#215; under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance.

Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods.
Missiles: Air-to-air missiles: PL-5E, PL-9C, PL-12 / SD-10.
Air-to-surface missiles: anti-radiation missiles; anti-ship missiles (AM-39 Exocet); cruise missiles (Ra'ad ALCM).

Bombs: Gravity/Unguided bombs: general purpose (Mk-82, Mk-84); anti-runway (Matra Durandal), Precision guided munitions: laser-guided (GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2); satellite-guided, Cluster bombs: anti-armour (CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye).

Others: Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1&#215; under-fuselage 800 liters, 2&#215; under-wing 800/1100 liters each) for extended range/loitering time, Externally mounted avionics pods for EW, ECM, ELINT, FLIR and targeting, BM/KG300G self-protection jamming (ECM) pod, KZ900 electronic reconnaissance (SIGINT) pod, Blue Sky navigation/attack pod, FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod.

Avionics: NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar.

Production: JF-17 production in 2010 was planned at 20 planes, while from 2012 it is planned to be at 30 planes per year at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

JF-17 Planned upgrades: all PAF JF-17 jets will be modified to aerial refueling capable; Subsequent upgrades will be made on PAF JF-17 jets approximately every five years.

PAF JF-17 Order: Pakistan Air force will get total 275 JF-17 jets, According to Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad of the PAF, the first JF-17 squadron will be inducted into the PAF fleet in the first quarter of 2009. 

[*B]Tejas *&#8211; Specifications
[/B]
Role: Multi-role fighter.
Manufacturer: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
First flight: 4 January 2001.
Introduction: 2011.
Status: Under development / pre-production.
Primary user: Indian Air force.
Unit cost: US$30 million (estimated).

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m
Wingspan: 8.20 m
Height: 4.40 m
Wing area: 38.4 m&#178;
Empty weight: 6,500 kg
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg
Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg
Power plant: 1&#215; General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN
G limits: +8.5 g
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.0
Range: 3000 km
Service ceiling: 15,950+ m
Thrust/weight: 1.02

*Armament*
Guns: 1&#215; mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon.
Hard points: 8 total: 1&#215; beneath the port-side intake trunk, 6&#215; under-wing, and 1&#215; under-fuselage with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance.

Missiles: air-to-air missiles: Astra BVRAAM, Vympel R-77, Vympel R-73.
Air-to-surface missiles: Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile; Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, Anti-ship missile, Kh-35, Kh-31.
Bombs: KAB-1500L laser guided bombs, FAB-500T dumb bombs, OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs, OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs, RBK-500 cluster bombs.
Others: External fuel capacity: 5&#215;800 liter tanks or 3&#215;1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters.

Avionics: EL/M-2052 AESA radar.

Production: Still in pre-production.

IAF orders: Indian Air force will get total 220 Tejas jets (Expected). 


I HOPE THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS... OHH ALMOST FORGOT THE AESA RADAR WHICH IS GONNA BE FITTED TO


----------



## Just Yash

ghazaliy2k said:


> Same here for JF17 and you guys compare it with Medium combat aircraft like MKI etc.
> 
> I remember and remember well JF 17 is a solution for light combat aircraft like LCA etc.



It's good solution for China to Dump their cheap made in China plane in other country........

It's good for INDIA


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> oh sorry i was confused it was LCH engine which france developed for you



No you are wrong again, It was a Joint venture 50-50....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> No you are wrong again, It was a Joint venture 50-50....



you beleive in wiki?

well then
F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this is also a JV.


----------



## Hasnain2009

Dark Angel said:


> Kuch logo ko JHOOTH ke shahare sari zindagi nikal ni padti hai



*India lags behind Pakistan in missiles*
Rajat Pandit , TNN, Feb 2, 2009, 02.17am IST

*
NEW DELHI: With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena. The only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile. *

Though the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles are being "inducted" into the armed forces, it will take "some time" for them to become .........

India lags behind Pakistan in missiles - India - The Times of India

----------------------------------------------------

Yes you are write kuch log jhoot par zindagi basar kartay hain,
Aur tum log jhoot par zindagi basar kar rahay ho kyun k tumharay pass missile tech nahi aur phir b apnay aap ko kia samajhtay ho!


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> you beleive in wiki?
> 
> well then
> F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> this is also a JV.



For You I will Believe wiki..... But Again its A JV, If You call it Indigenous, then you must have a Big heart to accept all the JV of Our Indigenous... Can you???


----------



## sudhir007

farhan_9909 said:


> Pakistan needs more F-22Ps, not Type 054A
> they will only help us little nt like france gave you a otal ready kaveri bt still has many probs..
> 
> what eevr it is the f-23P will be called totally indegenous pakisatn in wiki and man other sites


there is no where given any detail about F-23p except one line


> *He not ruled out the possibility of naming the next generation frigate as F23P*


----------



## shiningindia

Hasnain2009 said:


> Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Nobel Prize in Physics (1979)



great scientist. i respect him.
but i am pointing Abdul Qadeer Khan type scientist(nuclear smuggler). not ur some great scientist.


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> For You I will Believe wiki..... But Again its A JV, If You call it Indigenous, then you must have a Big heart to accept all the JV of Our Indigenous... Can you???



WEll jv is better then indegenous

50-50 program cost.
scientist/engineer frm two nations.

like eurofighter


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> WEll jv is better then indegenous
> 
> 50-50 program cost.
> scientist/engineer frm two nations.
> 
> like eurofighter



Obviously, but to be self sufficient , You need Parallel R&D along with JV which Pakistan Lags and India on the other hand is Managing both comfortably... Is the 300 MKI deal hurting our R&D? NO, Is Our 250 FGFA project Hurting R&D? No, Is our MRCA deal Hurting our R&D,no....


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> there is no where given any detail about F-23p except one line



the program is started a week back.
first we will induct the four..2 already inducted,third completed bt under sea trials.and 4th under construction

which means by 2011 we will hav all the 4 JV f-22P and then we will start manufacturing the upgraded variant f-23P
he said we will make it comparable to type 054A(stealth frigate) if nt better,

so this figure that f-23P will hav stealth features like type o54A.


----------



## shiningindia

farhan_9909 said:


> you beleive in wiki?
> 
> well then
> F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> this is also a JV.



india is also Joint venture 50-50 in FGFA. it does not mean india is developing FGFA. your F-22p is just like that. u r only investing not inventing.


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

Titanium said:


> Well, It was surprising for me atleast, that the director of LCA program Subramanium, compared LCA to be no more than Mig-21 , which itself is 50 years old design.
> 
> You know, when it program director has such low expectation of LCA, no wonder Air-force, as articulated by its airmarshal is not enthusiastic.
> 
> They seem just going through the motion, with no one brave enough to call spade a spade.





It is surprising that you don't know that LCA is meant to replace Mig 21.

Thats what he said LCA is much better than mig 21 it is going to replace.

How enthusiastic the airforce is about LCA is stated in the same article that has been posted here. Please read it in full. 

And by the way LCA will be inducted only after full IOC and FOC to the satisfaction of the airforce.

Until the LCA comes upto the satisfaction of Airforce it will not be inducted. Until then the airforce will keep on stating the shortcomings and HAL will keep on improving.

Thats why the engine will be replaced with either GE 414 or Eurojet 200.

Its in the Public Domain.

Sorry but we are going to induct LCA in large numbers and the financial allocation has been made for the same.


----------



## sudhir007

self delete


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Obviously, but to be self sufficient , You need Parallel R&D along with JV which Pakistan Lags and India on the other hand is Managing both comfortably... Is the 300 MKI deal hurting our R&D? NO, Is Our 250 FGFA project Hurting R&D? No, Is our MRCA deal Hurting our R&D,no....



look at your budget and our 
you can invest in mant R&D bt we can in some 
like jf-17 avionics production and f-22P,f23P.
we spend 5 percent of our GDP on defense which measn 6-7Bn.
and the GDP projected for 2013 is 264Bn USD.
so so 5% of GDP for defense budget means 14 BN in 2013.

we are in tough time and we are still upgradation our military this is awesome


----------



## farhan_9909

sudhir007 said:


> F-22 is china FFG not JV project



F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
what is this?

pak and china modified the tpe 053 as per PN requirements and manufcatured it.


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> look at your budget and our
> you can invest in mant R&D bt we can in some
> like jf-17 avionics production and f-22P,f23P.
> we spend 5 percent of our GDP on defense which measn 6-7Bn.
> and the GDP projected for 2013 is 264Bn USD.
> so so 5% of GDP for defense budget means 14 BN in 2013.
> 
> we are in tough time and we are still upgradation our military this is awesome



I never said its not awsome, But You must have had this thought before belittling Our Products.... Now that You have realized that Pakistan as a nation is Nothing In front of Us, I am glad I Educated u on this... So please, kindly Do not Belittle anyones Products when You do not have the capacity to Do it yourself....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> I never said its not awsome, But You must have had this thought before belittling Our Products.... Now that You have realized that Pakistan as a nation is Nothing In front of Us, I am glad I Educated u on this... So please, kindly Do not Belittle anyones Products when You do not have the capacity to Do it yourself....



i will never agree with you that pakistan is nothing infront of you.
i will never even agree with you that Pakistan is nothing against USA,russia,france,Uk,india

except countries like turkey and china.
 id nt wher is turkey flag

we hav teached you lesson in all wars.even your army offical now realised that kargil was a failure
its true kashmir is your land bt we captured it with force and you dnt dare to get it back.this is power


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> i will never agree with you that pakistan is nothing infront of you.
> i will never even agree with you that Pakistan is nothing against USA,russia,france,Uk,india
> 
> except countries like turkey and china.
> id nt wher is turkey flag
> 
> we hav teached you lesson in all wars.even your army offical now realised that kargil was a failure
> its true kashmir is your land bt we captured it with force and you dnt dare to get it back.this is power



I myself am a soldier,Dont remind of wars..... Tears roll Out of my eyes.... Its not because We lost, It hurts when You smell Your own blood Lying In front of you....you know nothing about war, Sitting Inside and Talking about wars is a comfortable idea..... And How kargil was a failure?? We reclaimed Our terirtory, but You still couldnt when it comes to siachin...And which war have You won, please educate me, Iam all in to hear that

If Pakistan is superior to India then prove it, Lets start from Technology....


----------



## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> I myself am a soldier,Dont remind of wars..... Tears roll Out of my eyes.... Its not because We lost, It hurts when You smell Your own blood Lying In front of you....you know nothing about war, Sitting Inside and Talking about wars is a comfortable idea..... And How kargil was a failure?? We reclaimed Our terirtory, but You still couldnt when it comes to siachin...And which war have You won, please educate me, Iam all in to hear that
> 
> If Pakistan is superior to India then prove it, Lets start from Technology....



hurray 400 post..

volley ball now

will reply after 2 horus


----------



## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> hurray 400 post..
> 
> volley ball now
> 
> will reply after 2 horus



Thanks for reminding me about that, My rice too would have now melted.... Take care dear, play good, we dont have anything in personal *I guess*... Take care dear...


----------



## ARCHON

*EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: LCA Tejas At Leh*

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## ARCHON

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

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## ARCHON

*EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: LCA Tejas Night Flying!*

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## Titanium

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> It is surprising that you don't know that LCA is meant to replace Mig 21.
> 
> Thats what he said LCA is much better than mig 21 it is going to replace.
> 
> How enthusiastic the airforce is about LCA is stated in the same article that has been posted here. Please read it in full.
> 
> And by the way LCA will be inducted only after full IOC and FOC to the satisfaction of the airforce.
> 
> Until the LCA comes upto the satisfaction of Airforce it will not be inducted. Until then the airforce will keep on stating the shortcomings and HAL will keep on improving.
> 
> Thats why the engine will be replaced with either GE 414 or Eurojet 200.
> 
> Its in the Public Domain.
> 
> Sorry but we are going to induct LCA in large numbers and the financial allocation has been made for the same.



Yep, It was in 1994 maybe.

Since then world has moved on, but LCA is still stuck with 1980's concept.

Whats surprising is the this Guy, subramanium, pleading for 60 order, when he know he is not delivering the LCA to the agreed specification.


LCA falls so short, that it can qualify no more than a trainer now, hopefully.


----------



## below_freezing

!!craft!! said:


> *
> *
> 
> *JF-17 &#8211; Specifications*
> 
> Role: Multi-role combat aircraft.
> Manufacturer: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
> First flight: 25 August 2003.
> Introduced: 12 March 2007.
> Status: Under serial production and in active service.
> Primary user: Pakistan Air Force.
> Produced: In Pakistan: January 2008.
> Unit cost: US$20 million (estimated).
> 
> General characteristics
> 
> Crew: 1
> Length: 14.0 m
> Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles)
> Height: 4.77 m
> Wing area: 24.4 m&#178;
> Empty weight: 6,411 kg
> Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (including 2&#215; wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles)
> Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg
> Power plant: 1&#215; Klimov RD-93 turbofan
> Dry thrust: 49.4 kN
> Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN
> G-limit: +8.5 g
> Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg
> 
> Performance
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
> Combat radius: 1,352 km
> Ferry range: 3,000 km
> Service ceiling: 16,700 m
> Thrust/weight: 0.99
> 
> *Armament*
> 
> Guns: 1&#215; 23mm internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon.
> Hard points: 7 in total (4&#215; under-wing, 2&#215; wing-tip, 1&#215; under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance.
> 
> Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods.
> Missiles: Air-to-air missiles: PL-5E, PL-9C, PL-12 / SD-10.
> Air-to-surface missiles: anti-radiation missiles; anti-ship missiles (AM-39 Exocet); cruise missiles (Ra'ad ALCM).
> 
> Bombs: Gravity/Unguided bombs: general purpose (Mk-82, Mk-84); anti-runway (Matra Durandal), Precision guided munitions: laser-guided (GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2); satellite-guided, Cluster bombs: anti-armour (CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye).
> 
> Others: Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1&#215; under-fuselage 800 liters, 2&#215; under-wing 800/1100 liters each) for extended range/loitering time, Externally mounted avionics pods for EW, ECM, ELINT, FLIR and targeting, BM/KG300G self-protection jamming (ECM) pod, KZ900 electronic reconnaissance (SIGINT) pod, Blue Sky navigation/attack pod, FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod.
> 
> Avionics: NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar.
> 
> Production: JF-17 production in 2010 was planned at 20 planes, while from 2012 it is planned to be at 30 planes per year at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
> 
> JF-17 Planned upgrades: all PAF JF-17 jets will be modified to aerial refueling capable; Subsequent upgrades will be made on PAF JF-17 jets approximately every five years.
> 
> PAF JF-17 Order: Pakistan Air force will get total 275 JF-17 jets, According to Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad of the PAF, the first JF-17 squadron will be inducted into the PAF fleet in the first quarter of 2009.
> 
> [*B]Tejas *&#8211; Specifications
> [/B]
> Role: Multi-role fighter.
> Manufacturer: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> First flight: 4 January 2001.
> Introduction: 2011.
> Status: Under development / pre-production.
> Primary user: Indian Air force.
> Unit cost: US$30 million (estimated).
> 
> General characteristics
> 
> Crew: 1
> Length: 13.20 m
> Wingspan: 8.20 m
> Height: 4.40 m
> Wing area: 38.4 m&#178;
> Empty weight: 6,500 kg
> Loaded weight: 9,500 kg
> Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg
> Power plant: 1&#215; General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
> Dry thrust: 53.9 kN
> Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN
> G limits: +8.5 g
> Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
> 
> Performance
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.0
> Range: 3000 km
> Service ceiling: 15,950+ m
> Thrust/weight: 1.02
> 
> *Armament*
> Guns: 1&#215; mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon.
> Hard points: 8 total: 1&#215; beneath the port-side intake trunk, 6&#215; under-wing, and 1&#215; under-fuselage with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance.
> 
> Missiles: air-to-air missiles: Astra BVRAAM, Vympel R-77, Vympel R-73.
> Air-to-surface missiles: Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile; Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, Anti-ship missile, Kh-35, Kh-31.
> Bombs: KAB-1500L laser guided bombs, FAB-500T dumb bombs, OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs, OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs, RBK-500 cluster bombs.
> Others: External fuel capacity: 5&#215;800 liter tanks or 3&#215;1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters.
> 
> Avionics: EL/M-2052 AESA radar.
> 
> Production: Still in pre-production.
> 
> IAF orders: Indian Air force will get total 220 Tejas jets (Expected).
> 
> 
> I HOPE THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS... OHH ALMOST FORGOT THE AESA RADAR WHICH IS GONNA BE FITTED TO



1 question: how can LCA beat JF-17 when LCA is not even produced?

are you going to laugh PAF pilots to death or throw the plans of the LCA at them?

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## IndianArmy

below_freezing said:


> 1 question: how can LCA beat JF-17 when LCA is not even produced?
> 
> are you going to laugh PAF pilots to death or throw the plans of the LCA at them?



You call LCA not even produced, where were You when when it was completing 1000+flight trials and LSP 4 is Out already..... And to compare an Aircraft, Induction is not necessary..


----------



## JonAsad

IndianArmy said:


> You call LCA not even produced, where were You when when it was completing 1000+flight trials and LSP 4 is Out already..... And to compare an Aircraft, Induction is not necessary..



 do gazillions flight trials and put it in the museum, really induction is not necessory.


----------



## IndianArmy

jonasad said:


> do gazillions flight trials and put it in the museum, really induction is not necessory.



Thats non of your business dear, Consider it the way that, Our forces arent desperate enough to have a Fast Induction before testing all the parameters , unlike my neighbouring country, China is still thinking to Induct it or not and Pakistan already Inducted, Speaks a Lot about JF-17..

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## ISRO

jonasad said:


> do gazillions flight trials and put it in the museum, really induction is not necessory.



well if LCA not fit to IAF requirement so we surely put them into museum..... on the other hand PAF use jf17 as their main fighters but they cant even match with current LCA


----------



## Titanium

ISRO said:


> well if LCA not fit to IAF requirement so we surely put them into museum.....





Finally that will be exactly the case.

Trust me, No acceleration, no speed ...makes it worse than a trainer


----------



## SQ8

Seems to be IAF Leh.
God the damn jet look soo much like the Thunder from these angles.


----------



## JonAsad

IndianArmy said:


> Thats non of your business dear, Consider it the way that, Our forces arent desperate enough to have a Fast Induction before testing all the parameters , unlike my neighbouring country, China is still thinking to Induct it or not and Pakistan already Inducted, Speaks a Lot about JF-17..



every country inducts jet fighters according to their needs.
we think jf-17 are more than enough for ur mki's.
and our k8 trainers will give lca a tough fight


----------



## bluefox

farhan_9909 said:


> i will never agree with you that pakistan is nothing infront of you.
> i will never even agree with you that Pakistan is nothing against USA,russia,france,Uk,india
> 
> except countries like turkey and china.
> id nt wher is turkey flag
> 
> we hav teached you lesson in all wars.even your army offical now realised that kargil was a failure
> *its true kashmir is your land bt we captured it with force and you dnt dare to get it back.this is power*



Do u even know what u said ??
kashmir is indeed our's !!!


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## JonAsad

Titanium said:


> Finally that will be exactly the case.
> 
> Trust me, No acceleration, no speed ...makes it worse than a trainer



Maybe LCA can be used for target practice by IAF


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## ISRO

jonasad said:


> every country inducts jet fighters according to their needs.
> we think jf-17 are more than enough for ur mki's.
> and our k8 trainers will give lca a tough fight



yes surely jf17 can beat MKi but in dreams 

*and as m told u that u cant even make ww2 era aircraft, k8 and jf17 is Chinese not urs *


----------



## JonAsad

ISRO said:


> yes surely jf17 can beat MKi but in dreams
> 
> *and as m told u that u cant even make ww2 era aircraft, k8 and jf17 is Chinese not urs *



Well LCA is israeli then,
atleast we can say that K8 is fast and its acceleration is what we expected..
Your fighter plane is not worth flying what about your Jet Trainer HJT-36 sitara 

if sitara acc and top speed meets your requirment then maybe you should switch the roles of both air crafts.


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## ISRO

jonasad said:


> Well LCA is israeli then,
> atleast we can say that K8 is fast and its acceleration is what we expected..
> Your fighter plane is not worth flying what about your Jet Trainer HJT-36 sitara
> 
> if sitara acc and top speed meets your requirment then maybe you should switch the roles of both air crafts.



use K8 as ur main fighter cause its in same league of jf17

we have our Mkis


----------



## shrivatsa

jonasad said:


> Well LCA is israeli then,
> atleast we can say that K8 is fast and its acceleration is what we expected..
> Your fighter plane is not worth flying what about your Jet Trainer HJT-36 sitara
> 
> if sitara acc and top speed meets your requirment then maybe you should switch the roles of both air crafts.



yup sitara is enough for jf -17.


----------



## JonAsad

ISRO said:


> use K8 as ur main fighter cause its in same league of jf17
> 
> we have our Mkis



Yeah...
Use Mki's against us and we will bring jf-17
Bring LCA against us and we will bring fully loaded K8 trainers.



Can you see the difference?


----------



## shrivatsa

ISRO said:


> use K8 as ur main fighter cause its in same league of jf17
> 
> we have our Mkis



dude uderstand what he is telling ,when sitara is enough for jf 17 why to induct lca poor India can save lots of money.


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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> yup sitara is enough for jf -17.



go up stairs and read wots the discussion is about.. dont just poke troller


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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> dude uderstand what he is telling ,when sitara is enough for jf 17 why to induct lca poor India can save lots of money.



another troll.. dont assume what i am saying.. READDD


----------



## shrivatsa

jonasad said:


> go up stairs and read wots the discussion is about.. dont just poke troller



yup its about you suggesting us to induct sitara instead of lca .you are rite actually why to induct lca when sitara can do the job against jf 17


----------



## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> yup its about you suggesting us to induct sitara instead of lca .you are rite actually why to induct lca when sitara can do the job against jf 17



Lol... then throw mki at sea.. no need of them.. lol


----------



## shrivatsa

jonasad said:


> Lol... then thorw mki at sea.. no need for them.. lol



yup you are rite.Oh god why did our govt waste money on mki when sitara was more then enough .we should thank Pakistani brothers for enlightening us.


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

Titanium said:


> Yep, It was in 1994 maybe.
> 
> Since then world has moved on, but LCA is still stuck with 1980's concept.
> 
> Whats surprising is the this Guy, subramanium, pleading for 60 order, when he know he is not delivering the LCA to the agreed specification.
> 
> 
> LCA falls so short, that it can qualify no more than a trainer now, hopefully.





World may have moved on but we haven't.

We are still using Mig 21 and would continue to operate them for a decade more atleast.

I want to know which 80s concept you are talking about...
The digital fly by wire, glass cockpit, LCD MFD's, Composites, or the mission computer.

The IAF has already placed order for 40, he is only adding one more squadron.

LCA falls short of what? Specifics please.

Don't talk in the air. Clearly state what are the specifications of IAF one by one and on how LCA falls short of each on of those specifications.


Till then

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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> yup you are rite.Oh god why did our govt waste money on mki when sitara was more then enough .we should thank Pakistani brothers for enlightening us.



well if its sarcasm then the equation is simple 
jf-17 vs su30 mki
k8 trainers vs LCA

and if what you ment is true then you are welcome


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## shrivatsa

no dear is sitara vs jf 17,mki is out of the league


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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> no dear is sitara vs jf 17,mki is out of the league



lol.. but according to your previous post mki's are better of in the sea 
you look a bit confused


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## shrivatsa

nop i am not confused its sitara better then jf 17 as you suggested


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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> nop i am not confused its sitara better then jf 17 as you suggested



where i suggested this??
Proof


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## shrivatsa

dint you ask us to replace us lca with sitara


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## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> dint you ask us to replace us lca with sitara



so where mki's came from?


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## shrivatsa

mki from your post


----------



## JonAsad

shrivatsa said:


> mki from your post



and where from jf-17 came?


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## ramu

jonasad said:


> Maybe LCA can be used for target practice by IAF



F-16 is already used for target practice. It will be no different for the IAF.

  

---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------




jonasad said:


> and where from jf-17 came?



From where the trolls like you started polluting the thread.

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## JonAsad

ramu said:


> F-16 is already used for target practice. It will be no different for the IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> From where the trolls like you started polluting the thread.



Lol.. you are the third guy i am having arguement with here.. what makes you think you are different from the other two?


----------



## Storm Force

Santro it looks nothing like the Thunder.

Tejas looks like the Rafael & gripen or mirage 2000


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## peacemaker10

Titanium said:


> LCA falls so short, that it can qualify no more than a trainer now, hopefully.



It is a good idea !! 

However, if it is so bad then India can look for a better trainer. We can easily afford the money involved .. 

But its not your fault, since you are using 2nd hand used donated things for your soldiers since the beginning..


----------



## CONNAN

*Tejas LSP-3/4/5 will spearhead Weapons testing

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK*

Successful test flights of Tejas LSP-3 and LSP-4 recently and soon to be Test flown LSP-5 ,will give major boost to the Tejas Weaponization program , LSP-3 which was the first aircraft to carry a Active Radar on board Tejas , earlier weapons testing were limited to dropping of free gliding (Light) bombs and single firing of un-guided R-73 BVR missile .

Now with MMR radar been successfully integrated with aircraft first phase of Weapon testing will start from September-October onwards , Most challenging will be testing of Air to Air BVR missiles , since the missile needs to be successfully synchronized with radar and other equipment on board , *Tejas will be carrying three different types of BVR missiles from different countries , Indian Astra Bvr , Israeli Python-5 , Derby along With Russian R-73 and R-77 .*

Initially Russian BVR will be used in the aircraft , while Russian have not provided Source code for their BVR missiles to work smoothly with new radar and the aircraft but Indian air force which has years of experience on this missiles seems to have been successful in integrating them with MMR radar , while Israeli missiles will not be having such problems since MMR HYBRID is partially based on Israeli Elta 2032 radar and will have source code of Israeli bvr missiles , MMR Hybrid&#8217;s major chuck of testing was done on board Israeli modified Boeing aircraft in Israel.

once first phase is completed IOC will be granted to the aircraft ,and second phase of weapon testing will start which will involve firing of Air to surface missiles on ground target still and moving , Rocket pods , dropping of GPS guided/laser guided /cluster bombs on land targets , and also of free falling bombs , after which aircraft will be given FOC , which is expected by 2011-12.

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## farhan_9909

great

going


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## SpArK

Fantastic News!!!


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## pkd

ramu said:


> F-16 is already used for target practice. It will be no different for the IAF.


Going by that logic su-30 is a junk as it is inducted by even third world poor countries like Uganda.
And USA's even target plane will be better than the best of uganda.


----------



## lhuang

Poor grammar, spelling etc.

Is this meant to be a news report or a blog of some sort?


----------



## Dark Angel

These few months will be very exciting before the IOC in december...... This baby has made us sooooo proud


----------



## syntax_error

lhuang said:


> Poor grammar, spelling etc.
> 
> Is this meant to be a news report or a blog of some sort?



Mate... in the other thread "J-10 vs F-22" the PDF link u page has tons of grammatical and spelling mistake .... so the same applies to that as well ???
just curious


----------



## Titanium

SORRY GUYS, THIS IS NOT,WHAT I HAD IN MIND CREATING THREAD.


----------



## chantpapipart2

YEAAAAH....


----------



## harrymohan

yeh induct kab honne walla hain??


----------



## gogbot

connanxlrc1000 said:


> Initially Russian BVR will be used in the aircraft , while Russian have not provided Source code for their BVR missiles to work smoothly with new radar and the aircraft but Indian air force which has years of experience on this missiles seems to have been successful in integrating them with MMR radar , while Israeli missiles will not be having such problems since MMR HYBRID is partially based on Israeli Elta 2032 radar and will have source code of Israeli bvr missiles , MMR Hybrids major chuck of testing was done on board Israeli modified Boeing aircraft in Israel.



That raises the important question , how many delays as a result of trying to integrate foreign systems ?



connanxlrc1000 said:


> once first phase is completed IOC will be granted to the aircraft ,and second phase of weapon testing will start which will involve firing of Air to surface missiles on ground target still and moving , Rocket pods , dropping of GPS guided/laser guided /cluster bombs on land targets , and also of free falling bombs , after which aircraft will be given FOC , which is expected by 2011-12.



They don't know what they are talking about.

After all testing is completed the Aircraft is given IOC , before December this year.

Construction of The first Tejas squadron has already begun and will be delivered sometime during the first 6 months next year. They will be stationed in Rajastan and put through their paces, While work on the second squadron begins.

After a year of actual operations in the field, as a fully fledged squadron of the IAF . 2nd squadron is inducted , Stationed? . And FOC is granted.

IAF may order more Tejas Mk-I , depending on how they operated during the last year , their need for more aircraft , and how free the production line is.

It is very likely a third squadron may be ordered and older soviet jets retired.


----------



## sudhir007

Nice artical about lca read from 34-43 pages

http://www.airfleet.ru/files/airfleet/Airfleet-2009-1.pdf
love to share this detail from this pdf


> Despite delayed works, the Indian Air Force
> seemed to be optimistic about the perspectives of
> the &#8220;national&#8221; engine in the first half of the current
> decade. According to announcements made by
> Indian government in 2005, the LCA series aircraft
> were to start receiving Kavery engines in 2009. In
> early 2005, an engine of the type developed 96&#37;
> of the maximum design thrust during tests.
> Flight tests of the bypass turbofan engine with
> afterburner installed at an LCA were planned to
> begin in December 2006 and January 2007. The
> problems to occur during the final engine adjustments
> seem to have not been solved. As a result,
> in February 2006 ADA concluded an agreement
> with the French firm Snecma for support with
> works on the engine so as to make it flight-capable
> in 2009-2010. The goal was not achieved either
> and despite the official continuation of the Kavery
> program, the idea of installing the engine at Tejas
> aircraft, at least in the mid-term planning, seems
> to have been finally refused.
> In the 1990s, the Indian Air Force were going
> to buy at least 200 LCA fighters and 20 two-seat
> combat trainers (while optimist would announce
> 300 or 500 jets) with the initial combat readiness to
> be reached in 2003 with the full combat readiness
> to follow in 2005. One LCA of the 220 item series
> was expected to cost the humble $21 million. The
> sum later escalated to $22.6 million, which is also
> very little compared to other 4+ generation aircraft.
> According to unofficial data, though, an aircraft of
> the 220 item series would cost $35 million, which
> seem much more true to life.
> The Tejas planes were planned to start entering
> the Indian Air Force inventory in 2008 replacing
> MiG-21FL, and MiG-21ML. It is noteworthy, that
> the Indian Air Force currently has 19 air squadrons
> of MiG-21 aircraft produced on a Soviet license.
> A total of 125 MiG-21bis were upgraded to MiG-
> 21UPG(bison) and the rest, which are both morally
> and physically outdated, are to be replace in the
> near future.
> In 2005, the Indian Air Force concluded a 20
> billion rupees (over $445 million) contract with
> the HAL for the delivery of the first 20 series
> Tejas aircraft Mark 1 with F404-GE-IN20 General
> Electric bypass turbofan engines with afterburner,
> including 16 single-seat fighters and four twoseat
> combat trainers. The agreement also had an
> option for the purchase of another 20 aircraft. HAL
> ordered a total of 24 F404-GE-IN20 engines costing
> over $100 million at General Electric in early
> February 2007.
> Let us focus on technical features and design
> specifications of the Tejas Mk.1 first Indian series
> supersonic aircraft.
> The light single-engine multipurpose fighter
> has the tailless aerodynamic structure with a high
> delta wing variable-swept on the fore edge, singlefin
> tail unit and one bypass turbofan engine with
> afterburner installed at the fuselage rear. The static
> stability of the aircraft is reduced. The Tejas features,
> the designers claim, are to be as follows:
> &#8211; high maneuverability;
> &#8211; multifunctionality;
> &#8211; all-weather day and night capability;
> &#8211; compatibility of cockpit instrumental equipment
> with night vision goggles;
> &#8211; low radar echo, which is one third of that of
> similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2).
> The aerodynamic structure of the aircraft is
> claimed to provide minimal wind resistance, little
> specific wing load, high rate of turn for bank, yaw and
> pitch, as well as good takeoff and landing features.
> About 43% of the series-produced LCA airframe
> is made of composite materials. The fighter
> skin is 90% composite materials. The use of large
> coal-plastic panels provided a much lighter design,
> as well as a reduced use of fasteners with 5,000 of
> rivets necessary compared to 10,000 of a similar
> size fighter with an all-metal riveted design. The
> use of composite materials saved the necessity of
> drilling 2,000 holes in the airframe inevitable for a
> usual all-metal design.
> The wing is made of composite materials
> (longerons, wing ribs and skin), fuselage skin
> and air inlets, as well as the elevons, keel, rudder,
> and air-brakes and undercarriage flaps. The
> coal-plastic skin is 2.4-2.7 mm deep. The airframe
> design largely incorporates aluminum&#8211; lithium and
> titanium alloys.
> As a result of implementation of some new
> constructional materials (first of all composite
> materials) and the latest technologies the duration
> of manufacturing period of one LCA aircraft had to
> be reduced from 11 to 7 months.

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## IndianArmy

jonasad said:


> every country inducts jet fighters according to their needs.
> we think jf-17 are more than enough for ur mki's.
> and our k8 trainers will give lca a tough fight



Yeah yah, Your K-8's are 6th gen aircrafts, It can even bring down F-22.... you guys are the superpower.... No worries....


----------



## CONNAN

IndianArmy said:


> Yeah yah, Your K-8's are 6th gen aircrafts, It can even bring down F-22.... you guys are the superpower.... No worries....


----------



## flanker143

tejas mk2 gonna be ready till the production for tejas mk1 ends , and itz goona be ALOT better than tejas mk1


----------



## flanker143

> Going by that logic su-30 is a junk as it is inducted by even third world poor countries like Uganda.
> And USA's even target plane will be better than the best of uganda.



just to remind u dat pak is also considered to be a 3 third world country dat proves dat jf 17 is junk 

and if u sayin that su 30 is junk then jf 17 cannot be called even fighter jet !!!!


----------



## farhan_9909

harrymohan said:


> yeh induct kab honne walla hain??



as per indian media its in 2014-15.


----------



## Ammyy

farhan_9909 said:


> as per indian media its in 2014-15.



IOC planned in Dec 2010 .


----------



## flanker143

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by harrymohan
> yeh induct kab honne walla hain??
> as per indian media its in 2014-15.



ioc will be achieved this yr end with tejas mk1 and foc will be achieved with mk2 in 2013-14


----------



## flanker143

> Originally Posted by harrymohan
> yeh induct kab honne walla hain??


ioc with mk1 in 2011 and foc with mk2 in 2013-14


----------



## farhan_9909

Any news for you both claims.
speciallly about the FOC by 2013 by mk2?

link for my claim
Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - India - The Times of India

india will get 20 tejas by 2014-15

and now plzz dnt say the news is crap or we dnt beleive in TOI


----------



## Ammyy

farhan_9909 said:


> Any news for you both claims.
> speciallly about the FOC by 2013 by mk2?
> 
> link for my claim
> Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - India - The Times of India
> 
> india will get 20 tejas by 2014-15
> 
> and now plzz dnt say the news is crap or we dnt beleive in TOI




Light combat aircraft flies with near-full gear - dnaindia.com

LCA Tejas makes successful flight - India - The Times of India

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## lhuang

flanker143 said:


> tejas mk2 gonna be ready till the production for tejas mk1 ends , and itz goona be ALOT better than tejas mk1



Wrong. MkII will be different only insofar that it will have an AESA radar and a more powerful engine.


----------



## sudhir007

if you want to know the contribution of Indian Industries see this video. sorry if anybody post this video before

YouTube - cybersurg's Channel


----------



## Dash

> Wrong. MkII will be different only insofar that it will have an AESA radar and a more powerful engine.



See you have almost pointed out the most significant changes. what else you will need?


----------



## flanker143

> Originally Posted by flanker143
> tejas mk2 gonna be ready till the production for tejas mk1 ends , and itz goona be ALOT better than tejas mk1
> Wrong. MkII will be different only insofar that it will have an AESA radar and a more powerful engine



welll dat makes it more advanced and powerful !!!!


----------



## Ammyy

lhuang said:


> Wrong. MkII will be different only insofar that it will have an AESA radar and a more powerful engine.



with these things it will be more powerful than ur f16 52 and fc20 
what else u need ?????


----------



## flanker143

i dont know why lca is cmpared to jf , jf is nowhere near lca as lca is far more better than jf even in current form !!! i say so bcoz 
1- its lighter and even in its present state carries a more powerful engine
2- 2032 hybrid has 160km+ range whereas kj10 has only 105km
3- lca carries a 4t+ payload whereas jf carries 3.6t payload 
4- jf has only chinese avionics which both nations(pak an china) r tryin to replace !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## flanker143

and the most important --- china is not inducting jf in its af , the sole developer of jf (although they say it is a joint venture but pak fan-boys has failed to figure out what they just did in it !!!!!!) is not inducting the jet !!!


----------



## farhan_9909

flanker143 said:


> i dont know why lca is cmpared to jf , jf is nowhere near lca as lca is far more better than jf even in current form !!! i say so bcoz
> 1- its lighter and even in its present state carries a more powerful engine
> 2- 2032 hybrid has 160km+ range whereas kj10 has only 105km
> 3- lca carries a 4t+ payload whereas jf carries 3.6t payload
> 4- jf has only chinese avionics which both nations(pak an china) r tryin to replace !!!!!!!!!!!!



:O...lol at your post

frm wher you get that KLJ-10 range 105km when it is a long range radar and is used in j-10 too.
its lighter yes bt we are making jf-17 lighter even before you induct your dream
LCa carries 4ton and jf-17 3.8ton.even without the use of 45% composite material and 1kn les power engine
imagine jf-17 with 45% omposite material usage and upto 100Kn engine.i think it will reach 2.2mach speed and 6 ton payload very easily..
didnt you heard about the recent news pak to develop indegenous avionics for jf-17 currently 4 and complete avionics suite within few years.

still your LCA dnt hav complete avionics indegenous.i mean the radar


----------



## flanker143

> :O...lol at your post
> 
> frm wher you get that KLJ-10 range 105km when it is a long range radar and is used in j-10 too.
> its lighter yes bt we are making jf-17 lighter even before you induct your dream
> LCa carries 4ton and jf-17 3.8ton.even without the use of 45&#37; composite material and 1kn les power engine
> imagine jf-17 with 45% omposite material usage and upto 100Kn engine.i think it will reach 2.2mach speed and 6 ton payload very easily..
> didnt you heard about the recent news pak to develop indegenous avionics for jf-17 currently 4 and complete avionics suite within few years.
> 
> still your LCA dnt hav complete avionics indegenous.i mean the radar



dream on with ur jf no one can stop u frm doi dat!!!!!!
latest lca lsp flew with complete avionics package and radar ie with 2032 hubrid with 160km+ range and before lca mk1 production will end lca mk2 with aesa and a more powerful engine will be devloped and after dat lca mk2 production will follow !!!!
and also jf uses a lighterversion of klj 10 and dat means much reduced performance !!!!!!!!!!
and lca has 4tn+ capability


----------



## sancho

lhuang said:


> Wrong. MkII will be different only insofar that it will have an AESA radar and a more powerful engine.



At least that is known so far, I wouldn't be surprised if more weapon stations, IRST would be added too.


----------



## farhan_9909

flanker143 said:


> dream on with ur jf no one can stop u frm doi dat!!!!!!
> latest lca lsp flew with complete avionics package and radar ie with 2032 hubrid with 160km+ range and before lca mk1 production will end lca mk2 with aesa and a more powerful engine will be devloped and after dat lca mk2 production will follow !!!!
> and also jf uses a lighterversion of klj 10 and dat means much reduced performance !!!!!!!!!!
> and lca has 4tn+ capability



and jf-17 with full avionics flew in 2006.the last prototype..
and you still hav a long way to go..first after the IOC you will start the full scale production of LCA it will be start in 2012-13
then you wil manufacture 40 LCa means 2014
we already hav 22 jf-17 and more 10-15 are to be added this year and will also get jf-17 frm china.means by mid 2011 we will hav 50 jf-17 and jf-17 block II will be ready because it is almost even ready nw..IRST,engine ready only testing remaining and 1 year is enough for testing
the only option remaining is AESA radar which we will choose between Chineese NRIET underdevelopment or italian.
the jf-17 II in performance will be comparable to Gripen NG if nt better


----------



## gogbot

farhan_9909 said:


> :O...lol at your post
> 
> frm wher you get that KLJ-10 range 105km when it is a long range radar and is used in j-10 too.



JF-17 Arrived in Pakistan - MILAVIA Military Aviation News



> According to Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, nine JF-17s will be delivered to Pakistan this year: eight series produced aircraft and one prototype. All aircraft are batch one aircraft with Chinese avionics, including the Chinese Nanjing KLJ-7 radar.





> The KLJ-7 uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna and bears similarities with the various Russian radars imported in the 1990s. Russian radar design houses Phazotron and NIIP had worked closely in the past with the Chinese radar design bureaus and provided technical assistance as well as operational models of Russian-made radar sets that were used as benchmarks in the process of these Chinese firms developing their own design. Up to 20 units of the Phazotron Zhemchoug ('Pearl) radar were imported in the mid-1990s for evaluation along with 2 units of Phazotron (NIIR) RP-35, which is the upgraded version of the Zhemchoug.
> 
> The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. *The detection range for targets with a radar cross-section of 5 square meters is stated to be &#8805;105 km (&#8805;85 km in look-down mode). Surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km.* Most modern Chinese air-launched weapons, such as the short-range PL-9C and the beyond-visual-range PL-12 (SD-10) air-to-air missiles are supported by the KLJ-7. It has been reported that KLJ-7 also has modes to support a range of NATO weaponry, including the Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range and AIM-7 Sparrow medium-range air-to-air missiles.






farhan_9909 said:


> imagine jf-17 with 45% omposite material usage and upto 100Kn engine.i think it will reach 2.2mach speed and 6 ton payload very easily..



If you want to imagine why don't you compare the future JF-17 with Future LCK MkII .
- I can quote AESA radar , super cruise , trust vectoring and all such nonsense.

But it's no point in comparison unless proven on the ground.

So keep you imagination in check



farhan_9909 said:


> didnt you heard about the recent news pak to develop indegenous avionics for jf-17 currently 4 and complete avionics suite within few years.



Pakistan to produce indigenously developed avionics systems : Defense news

India has already develop avionics suit's

I wish Pakistan the best luck in her efforts but , like you this is a recent development.



farhan_9909 said:


> still your LCA dnt hav complete avionics indegenous.i mean the radar



Indian radar with Israel Process is better than Chinese radar imported 
from China
Also Radar is not Avionics.

Also LCA avionics are all made in India.

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## gogbot

sancho said:


> At least that is known so far, I wouldn't be surprised if more weapon stations, IRST would be added too.



It will also have improved avionics , and refined Aerodynamic(partly dude naval version, and the reality of building the plane around a new engine) .

Some mock up's of the LCA had fuel rod( the one in the republic parade) , MKII may incorporate one of that as well.

Also keep in mind that if the EJ-2000 engine is chosen it would mean major redesign work, To accommodate the Ej-2000 trust vectoring , the fail fin will be removed so that all manoeuvring can be done via the TVC , and EJ-2000 also add's super cruise to the Tejas's .

But if the GE-414 is chooses , pretty standard upgraded as we expect.


----------



## gogbot

farhan_9909 said:


> the jf-17 II in performance will be comparable to Gripen NG if nt better



That is not true for one simple reason.

Tejas and Gripen have superior Manoeuvrability by design ,



> The Tejas is single-engined multirole fighter which features a tailless, compound delta-wing planform and is designed with *"relaxed static stability" *for enhanced maneuverability.





> In designing the aircraft, several layouts were studied. Saab ultimately selected a *canard design with relaxed stability*. The canard configuration gives a high onset of pitch rate and low drag, enabling the aircraft to be faster, have longer range and carry a larger payload.



Same design is used in Euro Fighter and F-16.


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## gogbot

farhan_9909 said:


> and jf-17 with full avionics flew in 2006.the last prototype..
> and you still hav a long way to go..first after the IOC you will start the full scale production of LCA it will be start in 2012-13
> then you wil manufacture 40 LCa means 2014



The Production of the air craft has already started , by this time next year the squadron will be inducted



farhan_9909 said:


> we already hav 22 jf-17 and more 10-15 are to be added this year and will also get jf-17 frm china.means by mid 2011 we will hav 50 jf-17 and jf-17 block II will be ready because it is almost even ready nw..IRST,engine ready only testing remaining and 1 year is enough for testing



IF that is what you want to believe then fine.


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> Also keep in mind that if the EJ-2000 engine is chosen it would mean major redesign work, To accommodate the Ej-2000 trust vectoring , the fail fin will be removed so that all manoeuvring can be done via the TVC , and EJ-2000 also add's super cruise to the Tejas's .
> 
> But if the GE-414 is chooses , pretty standard upgraded as we expect.



Hi gogbot, do you have any news about when the final decision about the engine will come?

Regarding EJ 200 engine and TVC, I think you are right, but TVC is offered if we fund it. Although it would be a good additional tech, imo we should go for the engine and techs that needs the least changes and delays.
EJ has stated that the engine alone wouldn't need any redesigns unlike the GE 414, so that alone would be a big advantage. Supercruise is possible imo too, especially because EADS already helps in LCA re-design for less weight, but as far as I found out so far, it will depend mainly on drag of LCA design and airflow through the intakes. Both engines generally are able to Supercruise and I find it very interesting to see what all is possible for MK2 and what kind of potential it has.

On the weapon side I would like to see the addition of Python V, AASM and possibly Helina for CAS.


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## flanker143

> and jf-17 with full avionics flew in 2006.the last prototype..
> and you still hav a long way to go..first after the IOC you will start the full scale production of LCA it will be start in 2012-13
> then you wil manufacture 40 LCa means 2014
> we already hav 22 jf-17 and more 10-15 are to be added this year and will also get jf-17 frm china.means by mid 2011 we will hav 50 jf-17 and jf-17 block II will be ready because it is almost even ready nw..IRST,engine ready only testing remaining and 1 year is enough for testing
> the only option remaining is AESA radar which we will choose between Chineese NRIET underdevelopment or italian.
> the jf-17 II in performance will be comparable to Gripen NG if nt better



the latest lca i said earliar is no prototype , it is limited series production an first batch of 20 will be delivered in starting months of 2011 an second batch before 2013 , and so u say it urslf dat jf 17 blk2 will not have weight reduction features so no change in payload


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## Hindustan Fighter

Hi does any one have any information about the timeline for selection of new engine. I had read earlier in one of the news article that the selection was supposed to be by end of Mar 2010 however haven't heard any thing thereafter.


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## sancho

@ farhan_9909

I don't want to join your discussion, at least as long as you don't take actual specs of JF 17 and always keeps talking about 100kN engine that are nowhere near to be even evaluated.

However, one point you and many Pakistani members fail to see is, that IAF/MoD has obviously a different strategy in inducting these fighters!
You are right that JF 17 is already in production and inducted, LCA MK1 instead is not, but apart from that both fighters are at the same stage now. Both are integrating radar, avionics, or weapons at the moment, JF 17 through operational service, LCA still as a prototype.
JF 17 has fired WVR missiles and dumb bombs yet, but that has LCA also before too. LCA even integrated the Litening targeting pod, JF 17 has not integrated any pods yet.
The last version of LCA prototype flow with the new MMR and JF 17 most likely with KJ 7, but for both fighters it is not clear if the radars are fully developed and capable (see the discussion in the JF 17 thread).

Both fighters are good additions for PAF and IAF, even in the early not fully capable versions. But the important point is, that both are a big point for independence of foreign countries.

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## gogbot

sancho said:


> Hi gogbot, do you have any news about when the final decision about the engine will come?





Hindustan Fighter said:


> Hi does any one have any information about the timeline for selection of new engine. I had read earlier in one of the news article that the selection was supposed to be by end of Mar 2010 however haven't heard any thing thereafter.



I also have not heard anything and i hate to use that word , but i also checked the PIB for any Info , but it seems there are delays with Engine selection. 

I guess we just have to wait , may be there are some negotiations taking place.

This is the latest reference in PIB that i found

PIB Press Release



> Monday, December 14, 2009
> 
> LCA Tejas
> 13:24 IST
> /LOK SABHA/
> 
> The proposal on the Kaveri-Snecma engine joint venture for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is under consideration of the Government.
> 
> Request for Proposal (RFP) for procuring 99 engines have been sent to two short-listed engine manufacturers, namely GE F414 from General Electric Aviation, USA and EJ200 from Eurojet Germany.
> 
> The engine houses have responded to the RFP. Both Commercial and technical responses have been received for procurement of 99 engines along with Transfer of Technology.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Gajanan D Babar and others in Lok Sabha today.
> 
> PK / RAJ



Don't be surprise if we don't know till the end of the Year.



sancho said:


> Regarding EJ 200 engine and TVC, I think you are right, but TVC is offered if we fund it. Although it would be a good additional tech, imo we should go for the engine and techs that needs the least changes and delays.
> EJ has stated that the engine alone wouldn't need any redesigns unlike the GE 414, so that alone would be a big advantage. Supercruise is possible imo too, especially because EADS already helps in LCA re-design for less weight, but as far as I found out so far, it will depend mainly on drag of LCA design and airflow through the intakes. Both engines generally are able to Supercruise and I find it very interesting to see what all is possible for MK2 and what kind of potential it has.
> 
> On the weapon side I would like to see the addition of Python V, AASM and possibly Helina for CAS.



Actually i did a little looking arround and found these little bits of information.



> Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners ("reheat").





> The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. *The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" *(cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner).



Kaveri
Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1

GE F414
Overall pressure ratio: 30:1

EJ-200
Overall pressure ratio: 26
Compressor	3LP, 5HP
Turbine	1HP, 1LP

GE-404
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1

Snecma M88
Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/01/22/321428/saab-celebrates-supercruise-test-success-for-gripen.html



> These include the demonstrator's General Electric F414G engine and an active electronically scanned array radar that should enter flight-testing later this year.
> "To show potential customers that Gripen can supercruise is an important milestone", says Gripen International marketing director Bob Kemp.



Does that sound familiar.

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## flanker143

gripen ng and lca mk2 will be lot similiar in capabilities be air to air or air to ground , dats why they r very comparable , 
and is da reason why gripen won't be chosen for mmrca !


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## flanker143

lca mk2 will have an aesa radar , a 95-100 kn engine , supercruise and thats wat da tech being added to gripen !!!!!!


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## flanker143

an also why buy an imported jet when u get homemade one with similiar specs anhalf da price !!!!!


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## flanker143

anyone has some info and specs like range , no' of targets of elta 2052 , then plzz tell !


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> anyone has some info and specs like range , no' of targets of elta 2052 , then plzz tell !



Maybe this helps:

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/4/36834.pdf

But please don't post several one liners, use edit and combine them please!


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## Hindustan Fighter

I don't believe that Gripen IN will not be selected just because it will be similar to the future Mark 2 LCA. 
I am sure that if Gripen is shortlisted by IAF then it will be win the competition because when it will come to price negotiation it will offer the best cost


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## flanker143

sorry buddy for multiple posts !!! i hv already seen dat pdf file , but i still dont know about it's detection or track range . plzz hlp


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> sorry buddy for multiple posts !!! i hv already seen dat pdf file , but i still dont know about it's detection or track range . plzz hlp



As the PDF states "tracking capabilitiy of up to 64 targets", which is very impressing! Can't give reliable figures about radar ranges, but the Israelis are experts in this fields.


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## flanker143

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by flanker143
> sorry buddy for multiple posts !!! i hv already seen dat pdf file , but i still dont know about it's detection or track range . plzz hlp
> As the PDF states "tracking capabilitiy of up to 64 targets", which is very impressing! Can't give reliable figures about radar ranges, but the Israelis are experts in this fields


 any estimates on range -+


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## KEETARP

flanker143 said:


> dream on with ur jf no one can stop u frm doi dat!!!!!!
> *latest lca lsp flew with complete avionics package and radar ie with 2032 hubrid with 160km+ range* and before lca mk1 production will end lca mk2 with aesa and a more powerful engine will be devloped and after dat lca mk2 production will follow !!!!
> and also jf uses a lighterversion of klj 10 and dat means much reduced performance !!!!!!!!!!
> and lca has 4tn+ capability



Where did you get that 160+ range , and against what target RCS . Is it maximum range .


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## flanker143

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf

here it comes , sorry it was 150km max range against areal targets , and 160'nm' against sea targets , sorry i mixed 'em up a little !


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## Sri

I read somewhere that the RCS of Mirage 2000 is 1-2 M2
and also the RCS of Tejas is 1/3 of Mirage 2000. If this is true then the RCS of Tejas should be around 0.3 -0.6 M2. 

Pl comment.


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## flanker143

from where do u get that mirage has 1-2m2 rcs , plzz tell


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## Sri

flanker143 said:


> from where do u get that mirage has 1-2m2 rcs , plzz tell



http://www.checksix-fr.com/downloads/falcon4/Topolo/zip/Falcon4M2K.pdf
It says


> Radar cross section (RCS) is assume to be less than the F-16 one a 80&#37;



and other info like F-16 from
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19170-su-30-family-4.html

*Not sure how far these quoted figures are correct.*

Also there was another forum where it was mentioned
Rafale has highest payload and MTOW to empty weight ratio of among any modern fighter


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## flanker143

> http://www.checksix-fr.com/downloads...Falcon4M2K.pdf



is it a reliable source ?, even then i seriously doubt bcoz m2k is an all metal bird with no Ram , dats why i'm doubt it .


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## SpArK

*Tejas undergoes hot weather trials in Nagpur*
Posted On: 10-Jun-2010 19:38:44 









Nagpur: The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, underwent hot weather trials in the skies of Nagpur, the second such trial here, official sources said today.

Two prototypes underwent what was the second phase of the hot weather trials, flying from the Indian Air Force (IAF) station in Nagpur, for over a week, according to a spokesman of the Defence Ministry.



The two aircraft took trial sorties to check out on board systems like the digital flight control computer, avionics systems, multi mode radar, radar warning receiver and the electrical and environment control systems under extremely high temperatures of up to 45 degrees Celsius, he said.

The trials were conducted to test the aircraft in the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration with the weapon system and sensors integrated, the spokesman said. The trial team included an IAF flight test crew from the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), besides scientists and engineers from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, he said.

During the test flights, data, video and audio from the test aircraft were transmitted in real time through fibre optic connectivity to NFTC, Bangalore, for closer monitoring and detailed analysis, which helped optimise overall flight test effort and enhance flight test safety, the spokesman said, adding the trial team was able to achieve all the objectives during the week-long trials.

The first phases of hot weather trials were conducted in Nagpur in May and June, 2008, spokesman said.
Tejas is scheduled to attain IOC by December 2010, the spokesman added.


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## flanker143

does anyone hav any range estimate on elta 2052 which cud be possible integrated with tejas mk2 ???


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## KS

flanker143 said:


> does anyone hav any range estimate on elta 2052 which cud be possible integrated with tejas mk2 ???



I think these should help u...

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf


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## flanker143

every time i ask for 2052's range someone hands me over this pdf but .......
i want to know da range !!!!!!! which it cannot provide


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## SpArK

flanker143 said:


> every time i ask for 2052's range someone hands me over this pdf but .......
> i want to know da range !!!!!!! which it cannot provide



Try this then

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf

Even if not many specs of this radar are known, we can compare it with Eltas 2032 multi mode radar and get a guess what detection ranges the 2052 might have. 
Elta 2032 detection range for sea targets 160nm = 296.32 km 
Detection of air targets 80nm = 148.16 km 


So the Elta-2052 should have range of 200+ kms, Meaning Tejas will be a killer everytime its up in the sky .

Courtesy Dark angel

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## flanker143

i haav seen dat one too mate , any waz thanks for puttin in the effort !!


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## Sri

Hi 
I found another article which states Mirage 2000's RCS as 3.3 M2



> The Mirage 2000 was built with a wide use of composite materials in addition to reducing the weight of the aircraft aided in reducing the radar signature of the vector, which also included other options such as side air intakes that hide the face of the engine (one of major sources of radar echoes) and delta wings (which deflect emissions Magnetic different direction than the original when the array is illuminated when the front). Thanks to these measures, the RCS of the Mirage 2000 is 3.3 m2.



Google Translate

By the way does any one know the Approx RCS of LCA 
Tx


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> is it a reliable source ?, even then i seriously doubt bcoz m2k is an all metal bird with no Ram , dats why i'm doubt it .



There are no reliable sources about it's range, because it was never integrated in any fighter. Also we will not have it in LCA anyway, we are searching for an co-development, so even if we team up with Elta, it will only use some parts of the 2052. 



BENNY said:


> Try this then
> 
> http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf
> 
> Even if not many specs of this radar are known, we can compare it with Eltas 2032 multi mode radar and get a guess what detection ranges the 2052 might have.
> Elta 2032 detection range for sea targets 160nm = 296.32 km
> Detection of air targets 80nm = 148.16 km
> 
> 
> So the Elta-2052 should have range of 200+ kms, Meaning Tejas will be a killer everytime its up in the sky .
> 
> Courtesy Dark angel



First of all these are generall specs, but they will differ from fighter to fighter, because of nose diameter, or available power. I still hope for official specs of the MMR, to see how capable it is. 
Dark angel might be true with his estimation, but as long it is still only under development and not integrated, it remains an estimation only.


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## flanker143

> Originally Posted by flanker143
> is it a reliable source ?, even then i seriously doubt bcoz m2k is an all metal bird with no Ram , dats why i'm doubt it .



i that post i was doubting the reliability of a source that said m2k has 1-2m2 rcs, u didn't read the earliar posts properly dats why u mixed it



> First of all these are generall specs, but they will differ from fighter to fighter, because of nose diameter, or available power. I still hope for official specs of the MMR, to see how capable it is.
> Dark angel might be true with his estimation, but as long it is still only under development and not integrated, it remains an estimation only



elta 2032 hybrid is fully developed and was integrated in lsp3-4, and also we r here giving only estimation or radars, drdo is aiming at 2052hybrid aesa radar for tejas mk2 in 2013-14 !!!


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## KEETARP

> drdo is aiming at 2052hybrid aesa radar for tejas mk2 in 2013-14 !!!



And what is your source for this classified information


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> drdo is aiming at 2052hybrid aesa radar for tejas mk2 in 2013-14 !!!



DRDO want's to use its own AESA developed for the AEW&CS , 
they are working on a spin of for use for the Tejas.

DRDO develops the radars for the Tejas , so i think they may use their own AESA


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## flanker143

> And what is your source for this classified information



here it is my frnd !!

http://www.lca-tejas.org/avionics.html


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> drdo is aiming at 2052hybrid aesa radar for tejas mk2 in 2013-14 !!!



That was the aim maybe, now it is this:

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: AESA Programme For Tejas Scans For Development Partner


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## flanker143

i am considering delays with it thats why i said tejasmk2 with aesa in 2013-14

guys i heard that ej200 is being improved so as to increase its thrust !! is it true ??


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> i am considering delays with it thats why i said tejasmk2 with aesa in 2013-14
> 
> guys i heard that ej200 is being improved so as to increase its thrust !! is it true ??



Check this site:

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion



@ gogbot



> The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. The GTRE's design envisions achieving *a fan pressure ratio of 4:1* and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, *which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise"* (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner).



The link above says:



> The three stages achieve a pressure ratio of around *4.2:1* with an air mass flow of some 77kg/s (or 170lb/s).



One more reason why I believe SC is possible with the new engines in LCA MK2

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## KEETARP

flanker143 said:


> here it is my frnd !!
> 
> http://www.lca-tejas.org/avionics.html



That was buddy
now it has changed check out latest on shiv-aroor at Livefist.
Here is latest - LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: AESA Programme For Tejas Scans For Development Partner


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## flanker143

Thats even better guys ......
india with its own aesa radar !!!!!!!!!! 

any company which has shown interest in this jv ?? plz tell 

though i am excited but doubtful at the same time bcoz i fear this radar will be not operational at the same time wid tejas mk2 resulting in another set of delays !!!

i am saying this keeping drdo's trend in mind !!!!


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## ironman

And the projected time frame is *2014*..

http://www.drdo.org/dpi/2009/Frontline-Dec18_2009.pdf


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## flanker143

> And the projected time frame is 2014..
> 
> http://www.drdo.org/dpi/2009/Frontline-Dec18_2009.pdf



Lets hope they dont get into delays again !! 

till then.....


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## Vasily Zaytsev

The Hindu : News / National : Eurojet offers dual-use engine for LCA




The engine will be competitive in many aspects

Eager to join hands with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its associates in the development of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas-Mark II,' the Eurojet consortium is offering its engine that could be tweaked to work on its naval version.

We are offering two variants of the EJ200, bidding for the India's LCA Mark-II which can be altered through a software change to suit the requirements for the naval version of the LCA, Eurojet Vice-President Sales Paul Hermann told a group of journalists here.

The Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA under the overall supervision of the DRDO, had sought a proposal from the EJ200 and the American GE414 engine. The order will be initially for 99 engines with 10 of these in ready-to-use condition. There is an option for additional 49 engines order.

Eurojet Chief Engineer Wolfgang Sterr said there were over 1,500 EJ200 engines for the 700-plus Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft under contract to six nations. He said the engine was suitable for the LCA and could be used for the naval variant that the ADA was working on.

The Eurofighter is in the race for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft that the IAF is acquiring.

The naval version requirement of greater thrust for take-off from an aircraft carrier can be met without altering the hardware of the engine. With a switch of software the EJ200 can be used for the naval variant and vice-versa.

While the company preferred not to make any direct comment on the price tag, EJ Sales Director Adrian Johnson, said it would be competitive in many aspects through low life cycle costs, transfer of technology and offering partnership to India for future development and enhancement of the engine and its systems.

The officials said, *If the Eurojet makes the grade, the organisation could also share its expertise in India's quest to develop indigenous Kaveri engine. We have experienced the challenge India is facing, At Rolls-Royce, it took us 100 years to get where we are,*Mr. Johnson said.

The Eurojet consortium includes Rolls-Royce (England), MTU (German), ITP (Spain) and Avio (Italy).

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## Dark Angel

smack that on da face, all da ppl saying its easy to build one

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## gogbot

Euro-Fighter seems to be Nodding rather Aggressively with India.

While i have some doubts with the Euro-Fighter

And EJ-200 engine is just very expensive.

GE-414 offers more trust , super cruise and half as cheap.

I think it will be good investment if we Acquired the EJ-200 , and worked on the Trust vector and Super cruise. And then re-design the Tejas to use The TVC for manoeuvring , this will require development of highly complicated Flight control laws , The Tejas already has every Complicated FCL due the RSS design , adding trust vectoring. IT will be a proper Challenge to establish our Capabilities when it comes to Complex aircraft FCL.

AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA



> AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA
> By Andrew Doyle
> 
> 
> Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).
> 
> The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.
> The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.
> 
> 
> *Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4&#37; on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.
> This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.*
> 
> *In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.
> EADS is leading the Eurofighter bid to win India's 126-aircraft medium multirole combat aircraft contest with the twin-engined Typhoon, and a deal to also equip the country's single-engined LCAs with the EJ200 would make the economics of establishing an in-country engine assembly line considerably more attractive.
> The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.
> *
> *The flight-control system can be configured to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions, he adds.*
> 
> Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.


----------



## username

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> The officials said, &#8220;*If the Eurojet makes the grade, the organisation could also share its expertise in India's quest to develop indigenous Kaveri engine. We have experienced the challenge India is facing, At Rolls-Royce, it took us 100 years to get where we are&#8230;,*&#8221;Mr. Johnson said.
> 
> The Eurojet consortium includes Rolls-Royce (England), MTU (German), ITP (Spain) and Avio (Italy).



How I wish I could thank multiple times for this post.... , post it again atleast 10 times more... so that I could thank you multiple times... 

what say Vasily Zaytsev ?


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## Vasily Zaytsev

username said:


> How I wish I could thank multiple times for this post.... , post it again atleast 10 times more... so that I could thank you multiple times...
> 
> what say Vasily Zaytsev ?





I would like to add one more thing here. South Korea which is quite advanced technology wise (electronics, robotics, engineering, automobile), failed in its second attempt to launch a satellite.
That does not mean that they can not do it . Eventually they will learn from the failures and mistakes and will be able to launch a satellite successfully.
Here also they took help from the Russians. Will it make their attempt any less indigenous?

Sikhane kay liye Guru to chahiye.

On a lighter note...


No matter how many times we fail, we will keep on attempting. And eventually we will get there.

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## hahahaha

Remember this article. I am sure many Pakistani's won't comment on this thread.. All they want is to talk about our failures.\

So keep it for future use.

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## illuminatidinesh

I think it is just another step towards the MMRCA. I some how get a feeling that we might be inching closer towards the EFT (But this is off topic). 
Also to note that this is entirely a separate contract apart from the MRCA. I would say we go for it for the sake of Kaveri engine. We need all the guidence and expertise from RR...


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## Uckrudeen

We don't want such engines...


----------



## INDIAISM

Karthic Sri said:


> hehehe.....the Europeans are throwing everything they have got on us to secure this order..
> 
> Delay it a little further and then we can get a deal like "*for every 1 Typhoon 1 engine for LCA free"*
> 
> But serioulsy its goota be Rafale all the way......
> 
> *nous voulons Rafale*...


i will love to see this deal and ya don't 4 get about 100% tot also...........but still i don't trust BAE after the Hawk deal


----------



## Kinetic

gogbot said:


> Euro-Fighter seems to be Nodding rather Aggressively with India.
> 
> While i have some doubts with the Euro-Fighter
> 
> And EJ-200 engine is just very expensive.
> 
> GE-414 offers more trust , super cruise and half as cheap.
> 
> I think it will be good investment if we Acquired the EJ-200 , and worked on the Trust vector and Super cruise. And then re-design the Tejas to use The TVC for manoeuvring , this will require development of highly complicated Flight control laws , The Tejas already has every Complicated FCL due the RSS design , adding trust vectoring. IT will be a proper Challenge to establish our Capabilities when it comes to Complex aircraft FCL.
> 
> AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA



F-414 has supercruise? where did you get that news? Its depends on the engine's thrust and aircraft's weight. If any aircraft is capable of sustained supersonic flight without the use of afterburners it has supercruising capability.


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## hellofriends

i think india already selected the eurofighter for mrca.


----------



## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> hehehe.....the Europeans are throwing everything they have got on us to secure this order..
> 
> Delay it a little further and then we can get a deal like "*for every 1 Typhoon 1 engine for LCA free"*
> 
> But serioulsy its goota be Rafale all the way......
> 
> *nous voulons Rafale*...



i think if france reduces the cost of rafale it will be marginally. they are famous for that. European economy is shrinking they will try their best to get the MRCA deal along with LCA engine and other staffs. this is the time to select cutting edge European systems through hard bargaining...... 

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------




hellofriends said:


> i think india already selected the eurofighter for mrca.



hehehe than I will be the happiest person.


----------



## hellofriends

Kinetic said:


> hehehe than I will be the happiest person.



let's see what will happened. latest news shown that eurofighter is leading the mrca and best aircraft of the world but only problem is price. that's why they r offering us


----------



## Kinetic

hellofriends said:


> let's see what will happened. latest news shown that eurofighter is leading the mrca and best aircraft of the world but only problem is price. that's why they r offering us



Yeah, EFT is number one choice currently. I think there was a news that Eurofighter GmbH has offered a reduced tag... also they are offering lots of jobs and opening new tech centres in India.


----------



## hellofriends

Kinetic said:


> Yeah, EFT is number one choice currently. I think there was a news that Eurofighter GmbH has offered a reduced tag... also they are offering lots of jobs and opening new tech centres in India.



i will be happiest person if eurofigher selected of mrca bcoz only company is offering help india to develop modern technology. and eurofighter is best operational aircraft so pakistan has no option to counter it.


----------



## INDIAISM

Kinetic said:


> i think if france reduces the cost of rafale it will be marginally. they are famous for that. European economy is shrinking they will try their best to get the MRCA deal along with LCA engine and other staffs. this is the time to select cutting edge European systems through hard bargaining......
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> hehehe than I will be the happiest person.


ask gujrati or a marwadi to deal wth them......... i m sure after signing the deal europeans will think that wat they were thinking while signing the deal

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## keyboard

INDIAISM said:


> ask gujrati or a marwadi to deal wth them......... i m sure after signing the deal europeans will think that wat they were thinking while signing the deal



Why you forgate about Baniyaa `s . m sure they bargain with them for every single peace


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## INDIAISM

hellofriends said:


> i will be happiest person if eurofigher selected of mrca bcoz only company is offering help india to develop modern technology. and eurofighter is best operational aircraft so pakistan has no option to counter it.


don't 4get france they had helped us alot in developing and upgrading lca tejas,lch,dhruv,mig 27,su 30mki...................france,russia and israel r our tested partners...................{*out of topic*}to be frank i think israel has played a vital role in developing our defence industry


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## INDIAISM

keyboard said:


> Why you forgate about Baniyaa `s . m sure they bargain with them for every single peace


dude marwadi's r like **** of baniya's in bargaining.............i have dealed with both of them..........and beleive me marwadi's r hardcore buisness man...............btw marwadi's and baniya's belongs to same community as far as i think


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## SpArK

*My choice too..*


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## Aimar

^^^the only problem remains the cost...even after 25&#37; less..its the costliest....otherwise its the best..no doubt.


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## Kinetic

INDIAISM said:


> dude marwadi's r like **** of baniya's in bargaining.............i have dealed with both of them..........and beleive me marwadi's r hardcore buisness man...............btw marwadi's and baniya's belongs to same community as far as i think



dude never under estimate baniyas. i have dealt with marwadis many times, but they are not as tough as baniyas. those baniyas are born businessmen, business is in their blood.


----------



## Kinetic

Aimar said:


> ^^^the only problem remains the cost...even after 25&#37; less..its the costliest....otherwise its the best..no doubt.



If you add overall life cycle cost it will be marginally high. Modern techniques, COTS and LRU made Eurofighter cost effective in long term.

LCA, Eurofighter, MKI and FGFA combination will be unmatchable outside US!


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## INDIAISM

Kinetic said:


> dude never under estimate baniyas. i have dealt with marwadis many times, but they are not as tough as baniyas. those baniyas are born businessmen, business is in their blood.


actualy i have many baniya friends from chld hood so i find easy to convience baniya in dealing as compare to marwadi


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## Aimar

Kinetic said:


> If you add overall life cycle cost it will be marginally high. Modern techniques, COTS and LRU made Eurofighter cost effective in long term.
> 
> LCA, Eurofighter, MKI and FGFA combination will be unmatchable outside US!



agreed..but I think Rafale would be a better substitution for EF...as you know..MoD will clear only the lowest bidder..so EF stands a less chance even when clearing the tests..rafale also will also serve similarly on the long term as EF.


----------



## SpArK

@Kinetic which one is better EF or Rafale???


----------



## Aimar

EF typhoon


----------



## SpArK

Aimar said:


> EF typhoon



I asked kinetic. because i need reasons not 1 liners!!!!


----------



## INDIAISM

Kinetic said:


> If you add overall life cycle cost it will be marginally high. Modern techniques, COTS and LRU made Eurofighter cost effective in long term.
> 
> LCA, Eurofighter, MKI and FGFA combination will be unmatchable outside US!


kinetic i think rafale will be better choice then eurofighterreason

1)infrastructure of dessault is already here{don't 4get e will be upgrading miraage 2000 in india}

2)we can trust france more then eads {BAE HAWK deal is a prime example}

3)indian navy also need an aircaft for iac2 so we can have rafale for that as EF don't have any carrier version

4)our pilots r already flying miraage2000 and it will take less time for them to be familiar with rafale


5)last but the most point they r ready to provide us with source code of AESA


----------



## Aimar

BENNY said:


> I asked kinetic. because i need reasons not 1 liners!!!!



oh great I could have given reasons as well...BTW what makes you think I replied to you ?? anyways there was no need of that rude post.


----------



## KS

Kinetic said:


> If you add overall life cycle cost it will be marginally high. Modern techniques, COTS and LRU made Eurofighter cost effective in long term.
> 
> LCA, *Eurofighter,* MKI and FGFA combination will be unmatchable outside US!



And this is a rare place where me and my buddy agree to disagree....

Rafale rox..!!!!!


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## Kinetic

Aimar said:


> agreed..but I think Rafale would be a better substitution for EF...as you know..MoD will clear only the lowest bidder..so EF stands a less chance even when clearing the tests..rafale also will also serve similarly on the long term as EF.



mate....

1) First quoting IAF 'sources' some newspapers as came up with a scenario that the fighter which just meets IAF requirements and lowest bidder will win but Eurofighter was the first to protest against it. Later IAF chief/MoD confirmed that it is not like that but they will consider everything including technologies, capabilities, ToT issues, how much it benefits us etc etc.

2) Rafale is a good fighter no doubt but it has no taker. Technologically Eurofighter is newer, more advanced, combines technologies from four European countries and has more upgrade potentials. Yes, Rafale will be most less prone to sanction just after Mig-35, thats a good side.


----------



## Aimar

INDIAISM said:


> kinetic i think rafale will be better reason
> 
> 1)infrastructure of dessault is already here{don't 4get e will be upgrading miraage 2000 in indis}
> 
> 2)we can trust france more then eads {BAE HAWK deal is a prime example}
> 
> 3)indian navy also need an aircaft for iac2 so we can have rafale for that as EF don't have any carrier version
> 
> 4)our pilots r already flying miraage2000 and it will take less time for them to be familiar with rafale
> 
> 
> 5)last but the most point they r ready to provide us with source code of AESA



thats very good point....we should also not forget pakistan's deal for avionics was stopped recently..just after the Mirage upgrade deal talks...diplomatically as well, its gonna be beneficial to us apart from very important AESA source code sharing.


----------



## SpArK

Aimar said:


> oh great I could have given reasons as well...BTW what makes you think I replied to you ?? anyways there was no need of that rude post.



Did nt knew it was rude. I didn't knew u typed EF typhoon just for fun. Anyway don't bother. Im still waiting for his reply.


----------



## JonAsad

Nice thread.. and it seems no Pakistani is derailing it.. Good.. Keep going.
Learn


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## INDIAISM

INDIAISM said:


> kinetic i think rafale will be better choice then eurofighterreason
> 
> 1)infrastructure of dessault is already here{don't 4get e will be upgrading miraage 2000 in india}
> 
> 2)we can trust france more then eads {BAE HAWK deal is a prime example}
> 
> 3)indian navy also need an aircaft for iac2 so we can have rafale for that as EF don't have any carrier version
> 
> 4)our pilots r already flying miraage2000 and it will take less time for them to be familiar with rafale
> 
> 
> 5)last but the most point they r ready to provide us with source code of AESA



6)rafale will be the main fighter for france for atleast nxt 30 yrs and on the other hand almost all the partners of eads r focussing on F-35

7)and ya don't 4get at present rafale has aesa radar and air to ground capability


----------



## INDIAISM

*and u.s don't have any control on france as compare to eads partners.....................*


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## Aimar

Kinetic said:


> mate....
> 
> 1) First quoting IAF 'sources' some newspapers as came up with a scenario that the fighter which just meets IAF requirements and lowest bidder will win but Eurofighter was the first to protest against it. Later IAF chief/MoD confirmed that it is not like that but they will consider everything including technologies, capabilities, ToT issues, how much it benefits us etc etc.



what if both EF and rafale pass the test s and requiremnt of IAF and the final decions is with the ministry ?? dont you think they will select Rafale ?? 



> 2) Rafale is a good fighter no doubt but it has no taker. Technologically Eurofighter is newer, more advanced, combines technologies from four European countries and has more upgrade potentials. Yes, Rafale will be most less prone to sanction just after Mig-35, thats a good side.



No doubt technologically Typhon is better and more advanced..thats why I already said it in m earlier posts that it is the best among the six..but saying rafale has no takers will be wrong.


----------



## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> And this is a rare place where me and my buddy agree to disagree....
> 
> Rafale rox..!!!!!



dream onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn buddy.........  eurofighter will fly in tri-colour in front of your eyes, rafale fans, along with Tejas and MKI. 

Every one pls join Eurofighter Typhoon brigade!


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## INDIAISM

Aimar said:


> thats very good point....*we should also not forget pakistan's deal for avionics was stopped recently..just after the Mirage upgrade deal talks*...diplomatically as well, its gonna be beneficial to us apart from very important AESA source code sharing.


aimar this is were i don't trust french they r to much greedy for money..............last time wen their was news about rafale is out mrca at time french started supporting pak for nuclear deal


----------



## username

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> I would like to add one more thing here. South Korea which is quite advanced technology wise (electronics, robotics, engineering, automobile), failed in its second attempt to launch a satellite.
> That does not mean that they can not do it . Eventually they will learn from the failures and mistakes and will be able to launch a satellite successfully.
> Here also they took help from the Russians. Will it make their attempt any less indigenous?
> 
> Sikhane kay liye Guru to chahiye.
> 
> On a lighter note...
> 
> 
> No matter how many times we fail, we will keep on attempting. And eventually we will get there.



Yes ... Yes... here SouthKorea in my office we were watching the satellite launch live.... and One Korean even wittingly commented that probably Russians are not teaching as good as they have taught Indians... 

And I said we are quick learners and you guys are not that is why you need and Indian to come and work for you and your product becomes successful... same way you get the ISRO people work for your lauch will become successfull... and we we laughed it off...


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## johnny boy

yeah nice man although id like the rafale to be mmrca..........


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## Aimar

BENNY said:


> Did nt knew it was rude. I didn't knew u typed EF typhoon just for fun. Anyway don't bother. Im still waiting for his reply.



ok. wait.

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## Kinetic

BENNY said:


> @Kinetic which one is better EF or Rafale???



I think its Eurofighter. Mate pls see my last post. There I have mentioned two points. If you want more details I will try it later in next posts.


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## Aimar

INDIAISM said:


> aimar this is were i don't trust french they r to much greedy for money..............last time wen their was news about rafale is out mrca at time french started supporting pak for nuclear deal



but In this case I dont think it will have any effect since the deal for Mirage upgradation is sure to happen and apart from that if I remember correctly we just had a deal of navy patrol ships from France (correct me if I am wrong here, as I am not sure on this part)


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## Kinetic

INDIAISM said:


> kinetic i think rafale will be better choice then eurofighterreason
> 
> 1)infrastructure of dessault is already here{don't 4get e will be upgrading miraage 2000 in india}


We have long history of building UK and German aircrafts like Jaguar (Anglo-French), Hawk, Dornier etc. Mate the same reason was used by IA to buy huge number of T-90S against Arjun ie its commanility with T-72! But if we are not capable of adopting new technologies or modern infrastructure why do we need MRCA? We could simply buy upgraded Mirage-2009. One of the main point of MRCA in IAF is to bring new technologies, techniques and infrastructure to build a modern aircraft. 



> 2)we can trust france more then eads {BAE HAWK deal is a prime example}


Agreed but the difference is marginal.* Scorpene, Mirage-2000 upgrade* deals are other examples. These two really didn't go well, much worse than Hawk deal. 



> 3)indian navy also need an aircaft for iac2 so we can have rafale for that as EF don't have any carrier version


Indian navy already floated a tender for new naval fighter which includes naval Eurofighter. 



> 4)our pilots r already flying miraage2000 and it will take less time for them to be familiar with rafale


When we go for something new and better we should learn this and we have learned earlier. It will be no problem for IAF pilots. 



> 5)last but the most point they r ready to provide us with source code of AESA



Eurofighter offered something same, forgot it's details but they also offered a smaller version for LCA. It will not be a problem.

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## sulemani keeda

username said:


> How I wish I could thank multiple times for this post.... , post it again atleast 10 times more... so that I could thank you multiple times...
> 
> what say Vasily Zaytsev ?



Thats slap on the face for many here. Cheers!!

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## JonAsad

Aah.. why cant we have discussions like this on Pakistani Topics...
Indians always derail them...


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## Kinetic

Aimar said:


> what if both EF and rafale pass the test s and requiremnt of IAF and the final decions is with the ministry ?? dont you think they will select Rafale ??


It will be mainly IAF's decision which will reflect on MoD's final answer. If both EF and Rafale meets all the requirements still they will see what is overall and high end capabilities and how much it benefits IAF and Indian industry. Many points come here, four nations Eurofighter consortium's pressure will not be less than the French's. 



> No doubt technologically Typhon is better and more advanced..thats why I already said it in m earlier posts that it is the best among the six..but saying rafale has no takers will be wrong.



Mate see, Rafale joined many competitions so far but could not win single one. If they get a deal from Brazil most probably political decision. 

*The time when fighter like Rafale could rule the market was/is 
1995-to-2012, that time is almost over and we know SU-30MK, F-15, F-16 and Eurofighter got almost all of it. After 2012 nations will think differently, here Eurofighter upgrades can challenge many fifth generation fighters like F-35, what it already started because as you know many of its technologies are of fifth generation. *


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## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> No serioulsy even if i everyone says Typhoon is more advanced technologically (!!!!) it is only in A2A roles.
> 
> The tranche3 upgrade for better A2g is still not in production and it will take time.
> 
> But Rafale is a much more mature A2G platform which is really the need of the IAF given that the aircraft the Rafale replaces is going to be Mig-27,Jags etc which are pure strike aircraft.
> 
> So w*at we need is a Omni-role fighter with excellent A2G capabilities and good A2A capabilities and only one fighter satisfies that...Rafale.*.
> 
> And MoD has made it amply clear that they will choose only the fighter that is the lowest cost among the shortlisted ones by the IAF.
> 
> So again its the Rafale.



Mate you know that Tranche-3 will get all the multi-role capabilities that Rafale have plus better A-to-A. It will not take time, they offered it to India and if India go for EFT, it will be inducted in time. See the weapons combination of EFT, its not less compared to Rafale as far as omni-role or multi-role or A-to-G is concerned...







http://nuevavidavirtual.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/eurofighter-typhoon-2.jpg

As for MoD/IAF's lowest bidder and 'just meeting the requirements' pls go through my previous post.

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## INDIAISM

Kinetic said:


> We have long history of building UK and German aircrafts like Jaguar (Anglo-French), Hawk, Dornier etc. Mate the same reason was used by IA to buy huge number of T-90S against Arjun ie its commanility with T-72! But if we are not capable of adopting new technologies or modern infrastructure why do we need MRCA? We could simply buy upgraded Mirage-2009. One of the main point of MRCA in IAF is to bring new technologies, techniques and infrastructure to build a modern aircraft.
> 
> 
> Agreed but the difference is marginal.* Scorpene, Mirage-2000 upgrade* deals are other examples. These two really didn't go well, much worse than Hawk deal.
> 
> 
> *Indian navy already floated a tender for new naval fighter which includes naval Eurofighter*.
> 
> 
> When we go for something new and better we should learn this and we have learned earlier. It will be no problem for IAF pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter offered something same, forgot it's details but they also offered a smaller version for LCA. It will not be a problem.



6)rafale will be the main fighter for france for atleast nxt 30 yrs and on the other hand almost all the partners of eads r focussing on F-35

7)and ya don't 4get at present rafale has aesa radar and air to ground capability 


*just tell me one italy,britain both of them have aircraft cariers and they r buying f-35 for their new cariers............that means they them self r not interested in carrier version of eurofighter then why should we buy that*


----------



## gogbot

Kinetic said:


> F-414 has supercruise? where did you get that news? Its depends on the engine's thrust and aircraft's weight. If any aircraft is capable of sustained supersonic flight without the use of afterburners it has supercruising capability.



Actually i did a little looking arround and found these little bits of information.



> Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners ("reheat").





> The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. *The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" *(cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner).



Kaveri
Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1

*GE F414
**Overall pressure ratio: 30:1
*
EJ-200
Overall pressure ratio: 26
Compressor	3LP, 5HP
Turbine	1HP, 1LP

GE-404
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1

Snecma M88
Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saab celebrates 'supercruise' test success for Gripen Demo



> These include the demonstrator's *General Electric F414G* engine and an active electronically scanned array radar that should enter flight-testing later this year.
> "To show potential customers that *Gripen can supercruise* is an important milestone", says Gripen International marketing director Bob Kemp.



Does that sound familiar.


----------



## Kinetic

INDIAISM said:


> 6)rafale will be the main fighter for france for atleast nxt 30 yrs and on the other hand almost all the partners of eads r focussing on F-35


So is Eurofighter. It will also be the main fighter for many years and four nations consortium makes that scenario more real than single nation fighter. 

They are re-focusing on EFT. 


> 7)and ya don't 4get at present rafale has aesa radar and air to ground capability


Caesar on the EFT is the best radar on any of the MRCA as far as sources are concerned. Eurofighter also flight tested with AESA and enhanced Tranche-3 ground capabilities. 



> *just tell me one italy,britain both of them have aircraft cariers and they r buying f-35 for their new cariers............that means they them self r not interested in carrier version of eurofighter then why should we buy that*


Naval Eurofighter concept came up only few months back so there was no choice rather than F-35 and when it will take shape, I am sure they will go for it along with F-35. Also Indian navy didn't send RFI without any reason.


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## Kinetic

gogbot said:


> Actually i did a little looking arround and found these little bits of information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kaveri
> Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
> LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
> HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1
> 
> *GE F414
> **Overall pressure ratio: 30:1
> *
> EJ-200
> Overall pressure ratio: 26
> Compressor	3LP, 5HP
> Turbine	1HP, 1LP
> 
> GE-404
> Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
> 
> Snecma M88
> Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Saab celebrates 'supercruise' test success for Gripen Demo
> 
> 
> 
> Does that sound familiar.



What you got from it? An engine doesn't simply make any aircraft to supercruise but weight of the aircraft and the thrust of the engine combined. If F414 makes Tejas a supercruising fighter the same will not let F-16 to supercruise because its much heavier than Tejas.


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## dbc

Kinetic said:


> Caesar on the EFT is the best radar on any of the MRCA as far as sources are concerned.



...really? What's so great about the CAESAR upgrade? Why is it better than the AN/APG-80 or AN/APG-79?


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## Kinetic

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ...really? What's so great about the CAESAR upgrade? Why is it better than the AN/APG-80 or AN/APG-79?



Go to this site...

Google

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## praveen007

now thats the offer we have to grab with both hands. we will get a good engine+Partner for our futur help.


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## flanker143

plzz guys lets dont bring mmrca and navy jets here ...... they got other dedicated threads for them !!!!!

plzz conc on lca !!!

i got more love for lca mk1-2 more than mrca !!!!


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## sancho

Hi Kinetic, buddy no offense, but many things you said about EF and Rafale are wrong!



Kinetic said:


> 2) Rafale is a good fighter no doubt but it has no taker. *Technologically Eurofighter is newer, more advanced, combines technologies from four European countries and has more upgrade potentials.* Yes, Rafale will be most less prone to sanction just after Mig-35, thats a good side.



EF and Rafale was developed pretty much at the same time, France was initially a member of the EF consortium, but quit after problems with UK.
Thales is the developer of both IRSTs, with the difference that at EF it was Thales UK and Thales France at Rafale. The Spectra EWS in combination with NG DDM is similar to avionics of F35, which are said to be 5. gen avionics.
Rafale has no export customer so far that's right, but France alone has already 180 Rafales on order, the plan is even to get close to 300 and unlike the EF members, France does not reduced their initial orders. So there is no problem for upgrade potential and they even started the research of a stealth upgrade for the future, while EF members have even a lot of trouble to fund the tranche 3 upgrade. 



Kinetic said:


> Indian navy already floated a tender for new naval fighter which includes naval Eurofighter.



Yes, but they only did some research about such a version, there is not even a prototype available and also no other customer for such fighters, so who will pay for the development of a small number of fighters, let alone their later upgrades?
Rafale on the other side is operational for a nearly a decade, which is a clear difference right? 



Kinetic said:


> Mate see, Rafale joined many competitions so far but could not win single one. If they get a deal from Brazil most probably political decision.



Yes, the same reason why Rafale lost in Singapore and South Korea, or EF won in Saudi Arabia. Most of these competitions are decided by politics (maybe even MMRCA), not by capabilities, but the fact that Rafale entered the final stage of the competition in South Korea, Singapore and Brazil, while EF always was rejected before, should say something too right?



Kinetic said:


> The time when fighter like Rafale could rule the market was/is
> 1995-to-2012, that time is almost over and we know SU-30MK, F-15, F-16 and Eurofighter got almost all of it. After 2012 nations will think differently, here Eurofighter upgrades can challenge many fifth generation fighters like F-35, what it already started because as you know many of its technologies are of fifth generation.



Mate, EF just got 2 export customers, Austria for 15 fighter and Saudi Arabia, don't know where you see that they got them all?



Kinetic said:


> Mate you know that Tranche-3 will get all the multi-role capabilities that Rafale have plus better A-to-A. It will not take time, they offered it to India and if India go for EFT, it will be inducted in time. See the weapons combination of EFT, its not less compared to Rafale as far as omni-role or multi-role or A-to-G is concerned...



Don't get confused by pictures, most of these weapons are not integrated yet! In A2G it only have Paveway II and III PGMs so far, Paveway IV in integration and possibly Brimstone ready by tranche 3A which IAF would get. Cruise missiles like Storm Shadow, Taurus, JDAM, or anti-ship missiles will only come if a foreign customer like us pays for the integration, just like Hope, or Hosbo glide bombs, which development is not even concluded.
Rafale in comparison has Paveway LGBs, AASM (European JDAM), Scalp cruise missile, Exocet anti ship missiles and now even ASMP (nuclear missile), although we won't get it integrated. 
EF fully 4.5 capable with all techs and weapons is only expected by the same time F35 starts production, so around 2016, but only if the member countries will keep their orders and fund upgrades. The problem is with the financial and EURO crisis, this is more than doubtful, because all members cleared major cuts in their military budgets. That is also the reason why they are so desperatly offering us EF , ToT, partnership in production (not equal partnership), because they need export customers that has money.

Imo EF *would* be an exellent fighter, *if* the whole development wouldn't be so delayed and if the members had the money for further upgrades and developments. But sadly that's not the reality right now and that's why the EF is suffering so much. It lost most of the competitons although superior A2A performance, but because more than limited A2G capabilities.

Rafale is much closer (if we take the results of the latest exercises to account even clearly superior) to EF in A2A, than EF might come to Rafale in A2G.

I know this is in LCA thread now and I'm sorry to go OT, but the actual facts about EF are simply totally different form what you believe.


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## shaktiman2010

With MRCA and every crap here, this thread is going into gutter.

Guys, keep the crap out and focus on LCA thread.


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## gogbot

Kinetic said:


> What you got from it? An engine doesn't simply make any aircraft to supercruise but weight of the aircraft and the thrust of the engine combined. If F414 makes Tejas a supercruising fighter the same will not let F-16 to supercruise because its much heavier than Tejas.



LCA is smallest and one of the lightest around.(it's lighter than the Saab)

If you can stick one into the SAAB and make it go "zoom"

i reason it's also *possible* to the do the same with Tejas.

the only question mark is air intakes and how much air the Engine get's.


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## flanker143

> LCA is smallest and one of the lightest around.(it's lighter than the Saab)
> 
> If you can stick one into the SAAB and make it go "zoom"
> 
> i reason it's also possible to the do the same with Tejas.
> 
> the only question mark is air intakes and how much air the Engine get's.



are there going to be any structural changes on tejas mk2 like sum larger body , wing modifications ...........etc ???


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## Sri

Possibly they might do it as IAF is not happy with the Air inlets in the first place [ Reason for flap doors were added similar to Jaguar ].

If time permits they may redesign, But I see that Engine selection is taking hell of a long time.


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> are there going to be any structural changes on tejas mk2 like sum larger body , wing modifications ...........etc ???



There was going to be some "AeroDynamic refinements" as HAL put it.


Also depending on which engine is selected.

Ej200 and Ge414 come with their baggage and advantages.

the GE engine for example won't fit into the Tejas , some changes need to be made for that. If super cruise is possible there may be some changes to make that possible.

Ej200 fit's into the plane a lot easier so no major work has to be done. However Ej200 comes with TVC and may also include Super cruise.

Now with the Ej200 there is a lot of speculation 

First read this article , if you haven't already

AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA



> AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA
> By Andrew Doyle
> 
> 
> Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).
> The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.
> The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.
> 
> Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4&#37; on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.
> 
> This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.
> 
> *In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.*
> 
> EADS is leading the Eurofighter bid to win India's 126-aircraft medium multirole combat aircraft contest with the twin-engined Typhoon, and a deal to also equip the country's single-engined LCAs with the EJ200 would make the economics of establishing an in-country engine assembly line considerably more attractive.
> 
> The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.
> *The flight-control system can be configured to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions*, he adds.
> 
> Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.



Now


> The Tejas is single-engined multirole fighter which features a tailless, compound delta-wing planform and is designed with "relaxed static stability" for enhanced maneuverability.





> A tailless aircraft (often tail-less) traditionally has all its horizontal control surfaces on its main wing surface. It has no horizontal stabilizer - either tailplane or canard foreplane (nor does it have a second wing in tandem arrangement). A 'tailless' type usually still has a vertical stabilising fin (vertical stabilizer) and control surface (rudder). However, NASA has recently adopted the 'tailless' description for the novel X-36 research aircraft which has a canard foreplane but no vertical fin.
> The most successful tailless configuration has been the tailless delta, especially for combat aircraft.









Now , notice despite the fact that the Tejas is tailless craft, it still has a vertical stabilizer.



> The vertical stabilizers, or fins, of aircraft, missiles or bombs are typically found on the aft end of the fuselage or body, and are intended to *reduce aerodynamic side slip.*
> 
> On aircraft, vertical stabilizers generally point upwards. These are also known as the vertical tail, and are part of an aircraft's empennage. The trailing end of the stabilizer is typically movable, and called the rudder; this allows the aircraft pilot to control yaw.
> 
> Often navigational radio or airband transceiver antennas are placed on or inside the vertical tail.





> A slip is an aerodynamic state where an aircraft is moving somewhat sideways as well as forward relative to the oncoming airflow. In other words, for a conventional aircraft, the nose will not be pointing directly into the relative wind (in the side-to-side sense).
> A slip is also a piloting maneuver where the pilot deliberately puts the aircraft into a slip.
> 
> The sideslip also uses opposite aileron and rudder. In this case it is entered by lowering a wing and exactly enough opposite rudder so the airplane does not turn (maintaining the same heading), while adding airspeed as required.
> In the sideslip condition, the airplane's longitudinal axis remains parallel to the original flightpath, but the airplane no longer flies straight along its original track. Now, the horizontal component of lift forces the airplane to move sideways toward the low wing.
> A sideslip is also one of the methods used by pilots to execute a crosswind landing. In order to land crosswind using the sideslip method, the pilot puts the airplane into a sideslip toward the wind to maintain runway centerline position while maintaining heading on the centerline with the rudder, touching one main landing gear, followed by the second main gear, and finally the nose gear (or tail gear if employed). This allows the wheels to be constantly aligned with the track, thus avoiding any side load at touchdown.
> The slideslip method for cross-wind landings is not suitable for long winged and low sitting aircraft such as sailplanes, where instead a crab angle (heading into the wind) is maintained until a moment before touchdown.



Now , with the of 3d TVC control , as an additional control surface , the Aircraft MAY not need a vertical stabilizer. Removing will reduce weight and reduce the radar cross section.
Now as you can imagine that would require some changes to the Flight Control Laws.

This is not new Idea , it was toyed with a few years back with the first few MCA concepts


(keep in mid back them the designs were for semi-stealth aircraft)

Then again this is all speculation.
So far no delta wing Fighter aircraft have TVC , the Tejas would be the First or second(EF would probably get it first) to get it , if in fact it does get it.

So there really are no examples to look at , Most other Dealt wing craft have Canards , SO to Tejas TVC is more key to achieving those 
highly agile manoeuvres . So if indeed it does get , it will be very interesting whatever happens.

There will be some re-design work regardless of whatever engine is selected. But to what kind or scale , is yet to be seen.

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## gogbot

Sri said:


> Possibly they might do it as IAF is not happy with the Air inlets in the first place [ Reason for flap doors were added similar to Jaguar ].
> 
> If time permits they may redesign, But I see that Engine selection is taking hell of a long time.



Engine selection should happen before the end of the year , if it doesn't it may cause some serious problems.

I am assuming it has something to the with the MRCA tenders.
And re-submitting the commercial bids. 
either that or price negotiations


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## dbc

Kinetic said:


> Go to this site...
> 
> Google



in other words you've haven't got a clue..!


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## flanker143

The radar being developed for lca mk2 wud be aesa radar ......

my question is ........is it going to be development of mmr or an entirely new radar with jv ???


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## welcome

LCA latest pic:


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## Chaluboy

Tejas Art by: parijat gaur

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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Aerospace & Defence Blog With A Difference By Anantha Krishnan M.: AVIATION WEEK: Tejas squadron to be rasied in Bangalore before moving to Sulur; LSP-3 & PV-3 back after successful hot-weather trials



The Indian Air Force (IAF) will form the first squadron of the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas in Bangalore next year before it is moved to Sulur, IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal P.K. Barbora tells AVIATION WEEK. (Sulur is located near Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu.) The initial formation of the LCA squadron in Bangalore is primarily due to IAF&#8217;s proximity to the aircraft&#8217;s designer, the Aeronautical Development Agency; its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL); and IAF&#8217;s test pilots&#8217; unit, the Aircraft System Testing Establishment. In addition, the National Flight Test Center (NFTC), which is monitoring all LCA-related flying activities, is also within HAL&#8217;s military airport. "Training becomes easier in Bangalore for the IAF pilots on the new platform. In addition, any teething problems that the pilots might face while getting accustomed to Tejas can be sorted out before they move to Sulur,&#8221; an NFTC source says.
Phase-II hot-weather trials over: Meanwhile, Tejas crossed a significant hurdle when two LCAs successfully performed in hot-weather trials (HWTs) at Nagpur last week. Sources told AVIATION WEEK that the week-long HWTs were part of Tejas&#8217; phase II schedule. The first phase was completed in 2008. &#8220;All new systems onboard and avionics were tested with temperatures varying from 40 to 45 degrees Celsius (104 to 114 deg. F.). We had absolutely no issues with these flights, and both platforms rose to the occasion and performed as expected. We had close to 10 flights as part of the trials,&#8221; a source says. Confirming the successful HWTs, P.S. Subramanyam, program director for combat aircraft and director of the Aeronautics Development Agency, says that one limited series production-3 aircraft and another prototype vehicle-3 from the Tejas fleet were part of the HWTs at Nagpur.


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## Tejas-MkII

First Tejas Squadron To Be Based In Sulur | AVIATION WEEK

*First Tejas Squadron To Be Based In Sulur*
Jun 14, 2010 

By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India 

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will form the first squadron of the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas in Bangalore next year before it is moved to Sulur, IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal P.K. Barbora tells AVIATION WEEK.

*Sulur is located near Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu.*

The initial formation of the LCA squadron in Bangalore is primarily due to IAFs proximity to the aircrafts designer, the Aeronautical Development Agency; its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL); and IAFs test pilots unit, the Aircraft System Testing Establishment. In addition, the National Flight Test Center (NFTC), which is monitoring all LCA-related flying activities, is also within HALs military airport.

Training becomes easier in Bangalore for the IAF pilots on the new platform. In addition, any teething problems that the pilots might face while getting accustomed to Tejas can be sorted out before they move to Sulur, an NFTC source says.

Barbora says, *The LCA Mk-II will have a new engine and we are hopeful that the product will be superior. Support is the key and we are hopeful that the Defense Research Development Organization and HAL will ensure that. *

IAF is willing to support indigenous programs as long as the products arrive on time, Barbora says. We are not asking for the Moon. We are willing to wait, but give us what has been promised as per the deadline. We understand its not easy to make an aircraft.

The IAF is currently in a transition phase, with new weapon systems and flying platforms set to be incorporated.

In the next 10 years, IAF will change. Rapid technological changes pose a huge challenge, and even we need to change. There are no shortcuts in technology and we need to do things [the] right way, Barbora says.

Meanwhile, Tejas crossed a significant hurdle when two LCAs successfully performed in hot-weather trials (HWTs) at Nagpur last week. Sources told AVIATION WEEK that the week-long HWTs were part of Tejas phase II schedule. The first phase was completed in 2008.

All new systems onboard and avionics were tested with temperatures varying from 40 to 45 degrees Celsius (104 to 114 deg. F.). We had absolutely no issues with these flights, and both platforms rose to the occasion and performed as expected. We had close to 10 flights as part of the trials, a source says.

The 11th test vehicle in the Tejas flight line is expected to fly soon as the program heads toward initial operational clearance in December. Weapons trials also are on the horizon.

*All the software will have to go into the final configuration of Tejas along with the flight control system and sensors. LSP-5 will be next.* From LSP-3 flight, the multi-mode radar is onboard and this is clearly an indication as to our rapid progress in the program, the source says. *We will be testing beyond-visual range missiles first and at a later stage the air-to-ground missiles which will take Tejas closer to the final operational clearance.*

Confirming the successful HWTs, P.S. Subramanyam, program director for combat aircraft and director of the Aeronautics Development Agency, *says that one limited series production-3 aircraft and another prototype vehicle-3 from the Tejas fleet were part of the HWTs at Nagpur.*

*Both aircraft are back in Bangalore and we are happy with what we have achieved. We are analyzing the data and will now move toward our next mission, *Subramanyam says.

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## Dark Angel

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Great news 

i am just waiting to see this hunk in action .... wonder how many people will get the bashing who have critised it and themselves dont have BVR capability


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## flanker143

> i am just waiting to see this hunk in action .... wonder how many people will get the bashing who have critised it and themselves dont have BVR capability



the ones who criticized it ....will stick to to their view ...saying its still inferior to their **-** bcoz they have lost an habit of understanding !!!!


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## KEETARP

> IAF is willing to support indigenous programs as long as the products arrive on time, Barbora says. &#8220;*We are not asking for the Moon. We are willing to wait, but give us what has been promised as per the deadline*. We understand it&#8217;s not easy to make an aircraft.&#8221;



Too much is hidden between the lines - 
How come every ACM and air-force official echo same feelings 



> &#8220;The Tejas Mark I is already *as good *or better as the light fighters in the IAF,&#8221; declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the MiG-21 BISON. &#8220;*The air force should order at least 60 of them.&#8221;*
> 
> 
> *But, the IAF is less exuberant.*
> Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas *IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to*





> Air Marshal Nak Brown will head the IAF&#8217;s team
> It will be issues on the ground that will take centre stage in Bangalore . With questions over the LCA&#8217;s combat performance especially climb, acceleration and how fast it could turn at certain altitudes having cropped up during the recent sea trails at Arakonnam, a detailed assessment of what can be managed within the time frame will have to be undertaken. *Sources said the IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic*.
> 
> According to the Defence Research and Development Organisation&#8217;s Chief Controller Research and Development (Aeronautics and Material Science) D. Banerjee, there is no doubt that the aircraft and engine have to improve, but any improvements will have to suit the *time frame*.
> 
> &#8220;The IAF will have to be asked how many aircraft they take with the current performance.&#8221;
> 
> *Dr. Banerjee under whom ADA functions, told The Hindu that improvements can be made to the aero dynamism of the aircraft by &#8216;technical cleaning&#8217; to remove drag, and also improving the LCA&#8217;s propulsion system*.



Same question's remain unanswered 
ACM --------------------------
ADA --------------------------- . 

Someone is lying Big-time . 
Its time we see both sides of coin , we have only seen one side of it .


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Too much is hidden between the lines -
> How come every ACM and air-force official echo same feelings
> 
> Same question's remain unanswered
> ACM --------------------------
> ADA --------------------------- .
> 
> Someone is lying Big-time .
> Its time we see both sides of coin , we have only seen one side of it .



They want a new 100KN engine and AESA radar , we all know that's why the MK2 exists.


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## flanker143

> KAVERI-M88-3 HYBRID
> 
> To further develop the Kaveri engine to power future generation of UAV's and Next Generation Fighter Aircrafts (NGFA) a Joint Venture between Snecma Engine Manufacture from France and GTRE from India was formed in Mid 2008 to develop a 100KN Thrust engine, Snecma will bring in M88-3 Core and use the Technology developed for Kaveri to make this new engines,it is expected that the first working Prototype will be ready within 5 to 6 years



i picked this up from lca tejas org ......

dev time is 5-6 yrs ....that mean it wud be ready by 2013-14 , same time for tejas mk2 ...

but the ongoing competition is only between fe414 and ej 200 .... why so ??????


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## sudhir007

flanker143 said:


> i picked this up from lca tejas org ......
> 
> dev time is 5-6 yrs ....that mean it wud be ready by 2013-14 , same time for tejas mk2 ...
> 
> but the ongoing competition is only between fe414 and ej 200 .... why so ??????



coze IAF want proven engine which already flown and also JV of engine not sign yet it mean it will not ready before 2016.


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## flanker143

> coze IAF want proven engine which already flown and also JV of engine not sign yet it mean it will not ready before 2016.



so why they r developing it if the main customer doesn't want it ???

for amca ??


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## CONNAN

The LCA's intakes are Y-shaped (twin-S if you like) as in the image below and are perfectly stealthy







YouTube - cybersurg's Channel


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## CONNAN

It will be the shape of aircraft that will determine most of its stealth , LCA having composite ,RAM coating,being small or having Y duct will not make it stealthy but will definitely lower its overall RCS in clean config , but once you hang those external fuel tanks and A2A and A2G missile on those pylons and in the field conditions they operate it would be any body guess what effect it would have on RCS of aircraft

It is quite fascinating when Eurofighter , Rafale PR tom toms about its low RCS( ~ 0.5 m2 ) in clean config , I wonder how much of those figures are valid with weapons/fuel tank load and in actual field condition.


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## CONNAN

Adding a 3D thrust vectoring to the LCA will allow it to undertake more violent turns when evading the incoming missile. This will only add to the effect that the aircraft was intending to do without thrust vectoring.

Also another interesting possibility that the USAF was experimenting with was using this to land at very short distances, usning thrust vectoring to maintain high AOA and landing, thereby using very short runway length.

Another immediate application might be higher weapon loads being able to be gotten airborne even if the runway is somewhat short - like in the middle of a war with a compromized runway.


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## sudhir007

flanker143 said:


> so why they r developing it if the main customer doesn't want it ???
> 
> for amca ??


Yes you are right but if IAF want more lca aspected order around mk-2 is 100+49(u can see the rfp issue for engine 100+49) it mean total 150 lca-mk2 and 40 mk-1 if IAF happy with lca and want to make another verson mk-3 with internal weapon with stealth feature 5gen. F/A then may be it will use. but behind this if IAF want more order mk-2 at that time around 2020(I assume that if foc complete in 2014 next 6-7yr we have 150-mk2) it will be use lca-mk-3 and AMCA both


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## flanker143

lca mk3 not even proposed..... not even possible ..... 5 gen tech only for amca ...also due to cost factor !!!


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## sam27

I think they should call LCA Tejas not indigenous but an indi-generous aircraft with amount of time and money we are spending on it.


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## KEETARP

connanxlrc1000 said:


> Adding a 3D thrust vectoring to the LCA will allow it to undertake more violent turns when evading the incoming missile. This will only add to the effect that the aircraft was intending to do without thrust vectoring.
> 
> Also another interesting possibility that the USAF was experimenting with was using this to land at very short distances, usning thrust vectoring to maintain high AOA and landing, thereby using very short runway length.
> 
> Another immediate application might be higher weapon loads being able to be gotten airborne even if the runway is somewhat short - like in the middle of a war with a compromized runway.



TVC for light -fighters is absolutely unnecessary .
I don't get the point of TVC , 
With modern WVR missile like R73/Python/Aim9x having TVC , high-off bore sight and pulling over high Gs , what is that thing Air-craft c an achieve but this missile can not . 
If your missile is giving that additional TVC advantage what is point in putting on Jet 

US tried TVC on its light-fighter F16 , conclusion drawn was
TVC is unnecessary for Light fighter , only possible for Heavy fighter .
TVC requires additional weight which is not worth for Light fighters , and for Tejas even more problematic , 
Better focus on Super-cruise.

MATV / multi-axis thrust vectoring problem in F16 


> In order to counterbalance the additional weight of the AVEN(Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle (AVEN)), the weight of the spin chute and the hardware (which is quite heavy), *700 pounds of ballast were added on the inlet hardpoints to keep the center of gravity ahead of 38% chord in order to avoid the danger of deep stalls should the thrust vectoring system fail*. As an additional safety measure, a spin-recovery parachute was installed high over the rear end of the aircraft to assist in recovery from deep stalls should they occur.


Finally TVC was dropped .

MATV Warfighter Technology -- Multi-axis thrust vectoring
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article19.html


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> TVC for light -fighters is absolutely unnecessary .
> I don't get the point of TVC ,
> With modern WVR missile like R73/Python/Aim9x having TVC , high-off bore sight and pulling over high Gs , what is that thing Air-craft c an achieve but this missile can not .
> If your missile is giving that additional TVC advantage what is point in putting on Jet
> 
> US tried TVC on its light-fighter F16 , conclusion drawn was
> TVC is unnecessary for Light fighter , only possible for Heavy fighter .
> TVC requires additional weight which is not worth for Light fighters , and for Tejas even more problematic ,
> Better focus on Super-cruise.
> 
> MATV / multi-axis thrust vectoring problem in F16
> 
> Finally TVC was dropped .
> 
> MATV Warfighter Technology -- Multi-axis thrust vectoring
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article19.html



Just some points for TVC:

LCA has no canards , i would increase the control of the aircraft.
Also , take of and landing length can be reduced by a large margin.
Also there is 4-5&#37; better fuel efficiency.

OF course there is the gravity defying agility.

But like you said , weight seems to be a issue , if the F-16 could not use it , it will be very difficult to get it to work on the Tejas.

WE can achieve superCruise with both engines. But only the EJ200 offers TVC.


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## flanker143

any body has some vids of lca doing high G maneuvers ???

plzz post them !!


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> any body has some vids of lca doing high G maneuvers ???
> 
> plzz post them !!



Here You go, look at it in the 36th second and around 1 minute 45th second where it takes High G turn


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## flanker143

> Here You go, look at it in the 36th second and a High G turn around 1 minute 45th second



thanks sir ......

i'm sorry if i hurt ur feelings during our last discussion on arjun .....


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> thanks sir ......
> 
> i'm sorry if i hurt ur feelings during our last discussion on arjun .....



Oh Its ok dear, i dint prolong that Discussion For Purpose.... its ok...


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> Just some points for TVC:
> 
> LCA has no canards , i would increase the control of the aircraft.
> Also , take of and landing length can be reduced by a large margin.
> Also there is 4-5% better fuel efficiency.
> 
> OF course there is the gravity defying agility.
> 
> But like you said , weight seems to be a issue , if the F-16 could not use it , it will be very difficult to get it to work on the Tejas.
> 
> WE can achieve superCruise with both engines. But only the EJ200 offers TVC.



The point that the US didn't use it for F16s doesn't mean that they didn't think it's a useful tech, because they did further development on TVC too. Everybody knows the TVC on F22, but initial development for it came through the X-31 project:

Rockwell-MBB X-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It know how they (US and Germany, which was a partner then) gathered though this aircraft was used for F22 and the EF too. The German companies that teamed up then are now merged into EADS!
The short landing that you mean, was a project they had with this aircraft, because they tried to use an computerised, automatic landing for possible carrier operations. They even were successful, but I guess it was too early and too complicated for that time. Especially, if you keep in mind that fighters in operational service will carry fuel tanks, or weapons too, what could make such landings difficult.
But you are right, for short take off and increased manouverability TVC would be a very good addition for LCA!

Another interesting point on the addition of TVC is, the possibility to get rid of the tail fin. This would reduce weight and RCS of a fighter and the US tried this out with the X-31 and later with the X-36 too:

McDonnell Douglas X-36 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We all know the pic of an tailless MCA prototype, so the addition of TVC on LCA could lead to such a future project too.

What I often criticised at the LCA development, is that they didn't team up with foreign partners from the start and even now, when they search for partners in AESA, engine, or carrier fighter development, I simply can't find a logic behind their (ADA/HAL/MoD/IAF?/IN?) moves.
They wanted LM for carrier fighter development and now want EADS, altough both don't have the know how for it, unlike MIG, Dassault, or Boeing.
They rejected Snecmas co-development offer first, but now are interested again, but wouldn't it be more logical, to team up with one of the companies that offers an engine for LCA MK2? Eurojet for example is offerint ToT and advanced techs anyway, so why not get their engines and combine it with a co-development for Kaveri engine?


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## Dash

I think TVC will also add to better angle of attack (not sure though). Looking at the current AOA of LCA, which is limited. It might add an advantage too..

However without TVC if Gripen can take off and land at short runaways then I can say this objective can be achived by other means than adding TVC. TVC will be excellent for NAVAL LCA though I feel.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I think TVC will also add to better angle of attack (not sure though). Looking at the current AOA of LCA, which is limited. It might add an advantage too..
> 
> However without TVC if Gripen can take off and land at short runaways then I can say this objective can be achived by other means than adding TVC. TVC will be excellent for NAVAL LCA though I feel.



Gripen uses the advantage of canards for short take offs and landings too, LCA instead was designed without (maybe for lower RCS), but N-LCA will get the LEVCONS for similar reasons.
Btw, found some interesting size comparisons between LCA and Gripen, as well JF 17 and Gripen:


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## Dash

> Btw, found some interesting size comparisons between LCA and Gripen, as well JF 17 and Gripen:



Then please share....these are fighters with similar sizes, lets see how are they different


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## flanker143

hey anyone knows the rcs of jf 17 ???

has it any rcs reduction features ???


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> hey anyone knows the rcs of jf 17 ???
> 
> has it any rcs reduction features ???



Ask it in Jf-17 thread please

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## flanker143

> Ask it in Jf-17 thread please



sorry ......i'll do that


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## Tejas-MkII

Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon

*Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon*

Ajay Sukumaran 
Posted: Saturday, Jun 19, 2010 at 0104 hrs IST
Updated: Saturday, Jun 19, 2010 at 0104 hrs IST

Bangalore: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is set to start commercial negotiations with aircraft engine makers Eurojet Turbo GmbH and General Electric Aviation for 99 aircraft engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

The two engine manufacturers had been shortlisted after expressions of interest for an alternate engine for the LCA were issued last year. Eurojet, a European consortium, is offering its EJ200 engine, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter plane while the American firm has put in bids for its GE F414 engine used in the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Superhornet. The new engine will power the Mark II variant of the Tejas, which currently runs on F-404 engines made by GE.

Soon, we should be starting commercial negotiations, probably in a couple of weeks, said PS Subramanyam, director, ADA. The technical evaluation is over. I think both of them (companies) are good candidates. *The Tejas aircraft ,with its current engine and configuration, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) from March next year with state-run military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd supplying 20 planes initially. The proposal for a second batch of 20 planes has been cleared by the defence ministry and negotiations are on, *Subramanyam said.

*The IAF has indicated the need for five squadrons of the Mark-II, which will feature the alternate, more powerful engine and upgraded electronics.* Wherever there is obsolescence setting in, in terms of advancement of electronics, we are going for state-of-the-art electronics in the Mark-II, said Subramanyam. *Even as the process of procurement of engines is on, ADA has begun two tracks of design based on the shortlisted engines so as to not lose time*, he added. Meanwhile, a proposal by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop the indigenous Kaveri engine with French engine house Snecma, is under consideration.

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

*Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),* he said. There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. *The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,* he added.

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## Tejas-MkII

> Even as the process of procurement of engines is on, ADA has begun two tracks of design based on the shortlisted engines so as to not lose time



well that show learning from past mistakes and be proffesional in your work.

Also next order of LCA of MkII version will be around 100.


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## flanker143

> Also next order of LCA of MkII version will be around 100.



thats pretty small my friend !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jha

^^ 100 is not PRETTY SMALL, however its not big also...dont forget that LCA is somehow increasingly becoming test bed for techs which will be used in AMCA..
and it will take atleast 6-7 years to produce 100 LCA MK-2..who knows we might be testing AMCA by then...


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## flanker143

> ^^ 100 is not PRETTY SMALL, however its not big also...dont forget that LCA is somehow increasingly becoming test bed for techs which will be used in AMCA..
> and it will take atleast 6-7 years to produce 100 LCA MK-2..who knows we might be testing AMCA by then...



lca was supposed to be the no.s fighter ...and when u have 300 air sup fighters .....i strongly feel lca should be lot more than that.....

take a luk at usaf ....nearly half of their af is comprised of f16 versions !!!!!!

i am not comparing iaf to usaf ..... but u ought to have a structure like that to pack the maximum punch !!


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## jha

the thing is that aircraft nowadays are evolving with each passing day..so there is no need to induct aircrafts just for the sake of it..its better to induct in small numbers like this and in the meantime keep improving tech. and keep installing them in new batches...


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## flanker143

> the thing is that aircraft nowadays are evolving with each passing day..so there is no need to induct aircrafts just for the sake of it..its better to induct in small numbers like this and in the meantime keep improving tech. and keep installing them in new batches...



no matter how much advanced tech u have ....you need to have suitable no.s to get the max advantage out of that tech......

hope u understand me this time ..... 

and seriously i don't think IAF will be stopping at just 100 .... u need to replace all those migs with aquality fighter !!!


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## Tejas-MkII

flanker143 said:


> and seriously i don't think IAF will be stopping at just 100 .... u need to replace all those migs with aquality fighter !!!



Yes, nobody is saying that IAF will stop after 100 ...... by the time order of 100 complete, kaveri will be ready so the next batch will be with kaveri, may be in larger number.


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## jha

^^^^or, maybe MK-3/AMCA will already be decided by then...and the production of them starts....
having said that i would like to be the no. raised to atleast 150..


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## sudhir007

Tejas-MkII said:


> Yes, nobody is saying that IAF will stop after 100 ...... by the time order of 100 complete, kaveri will be ready so the next batch will be with kaveri, may be in larger number.



I agree with MkII and remember their are option available for buy 49 more engine.


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> sorry ......i'll do that





flanker143 said:


> thats pretty small my friend !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



You have to consider Rate of production , Infrastructure , training , personal , when making orders.

Think about how many other types of Aircraft we are inducting.
How many production lines are there , how many pilots can we have to fly these planes and all such factors.

and of course our budget

You will realise that 100 planes is a fairly substantial commitment , no doubt , more orders are to come , but that will depend of rate of production, The quicker the production line can clear up the more they may order.

Keep in mind by the time we make 100 MkII , it will be around 2020.

If the production line can be cleared up sooner , then IAF will purchase , to meet it's squadron short Fall .

IAF want's 42 squadrons , and has 35 squadrons right now optimisticly speaking.

IAF is already acquiring ~500 new fighter aircraft(that is almost the size of our entire fighter force right now.) this decade ,
between the 200 MMRCA , another 100+ Su-30 MKI to be delivered , 140 Tejas MKI and MKII , at least ~40(2 squadrons) of FGFA/PAk-FA .
This increase in force levels is offset by the fact we would also be retiring ~200 Mig 21 and some Mig-27( but more tejas MKI may be ordered to offset this).


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## flanker143

any idea how may lca's can be made in a year by hal ...is it around 18-20 per yr or even less ??

once the mk2 is ready.. i think hal will open more production lines to increase the rate as current rate is quite low..


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## jha

initially it was 8 per year and was being said that it can be increased to 12 per year..


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## Just Yash

jha said:


> initially it was 8 per year and was being said that it can be increased to 12 per year..



We need to do batter than that, if we also want to export this fighter..


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## jha

^^ forget about export..untill and unless private players are included this LCA program will be stretched too far..


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## flanker143

> initially it was 8 per year and was being said that it can be increased to 12 per year..



plz provide a link for this 

that might for just limited series .... i am sure they will improve the rate .....


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## sancho

jha said:


> ^^ 100 is not PRETTY SMALL, however its not big also...dont forget that LCA is somehow increasingly becoming test bed for techs which will be used in AMCA..
> and it will take atleast 6-7 years to produce 100 LCA MK-2..who knows we might be testing AMCA by then...



Why is it not big? With the 40 MK1 we would compete PAFs present orders for 50 block 1 and 100 block 2 JF 17. What comes beyond them is hard to tell.
For example, everybody is thinking about AMCA, a multi role twin engine strike fighter. But does IAF really need another twin engine multi role fighter? We alrady will have an heavy class, multi role fighter. The Aura UCAV is maint on stealth and strikes, so be it for air superiority, multi role capbability, or preemptive strikes, there seems to be no futher needs, which leads me to one question:

" Wouldn't a stealhy 5. gen LCA MK3 be a better choice? It can take over the interception and CAS role, instead of just another twin engine fighter?


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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> Why is it not big? With the 40 MK1 we would compete PAFs present orders for 50 block 1 and 100 block 2 JF 17. What comes beyond them is hard to tell.
> For example, everybody is thinking about AMCA, a multi role twin engine strike fighter. But does IAF really need another twin engine multi role fighter? We alrady will have an heavy class, multi role fighter. The Aura UCAV is maint on stealth and strikes, so be it for air superiority, multi role capbability, or preemptive strikes, there seems to be no futher needs, which leads me to one question:
> 
> " Wouldn't a stealhy 5. gen LCA MK3 be a better choice? It can take over the interception and CAS role, instead of just another twin engine fighter?



I think they want AMCA for the strinke role and the replacement of Mig-27 and Jaguar in the coming decades , probably after 2020.


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## jha

sancho said:


> Why is it not big? With the 40 MK1 we would compete PAFs present orders for 50 block 1 and 100 block 2 JF 17. What comes beyond them is hard to tell.
> For example, everybody is thinking about AMCA, a multi role twin engine strike fighter. But does IAF really need another twin engine multi role fighter? We alrady will have an heavy class, multi role fighter. The Aura UCAV is maint on stealth and strikes, so be it for air superiority, multi role capbability, or preemptive strikes, there seems to be no futher needs, which leads me to one question:
> 
> " *Wouldn't a stealhy 5. gen LCA MK3 be a better choice? It can take over the interception and CAS role, instead of just another twin engine fighter*?



The moment you make LCA stealth and try to make it like F-35,there is no other option other than using two engines..we will need atleast 150KN thrust for such a plane..where will we get an engine like this..and spending money again to develop such engine will result in waste of time and money. 
Isn't it better to use two Kaveri in place of one imported engines..


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## flanker143

> Why is it not big? With the 40 MK1 we would compete PAFs present orders for 50 block 1 and 100 block 2 JF 17. What comes beyond them is hard to tell.
> For example, everybody is thinking about AMCA, a multi role twin engine strike fighter. But does IAF really need another twin engine multi role fighter? We alrady will have an heavy class, multi role fighter. The Aura UCAV is maint on stealth and strikes, so be it for air superiority, multi role capbability, or preemptive strikes, there seems to be no futher needs, which leads me to one question:
> 
> " Wouldn't a stealhy 5. gen LCA MK3 be a better choice? It can take over the interception and CAS role, instead of just another twin engine fighter?



plz do not compare iaf to paf ....... iaf is already much better than paf ..... we must see the chinese threat !!!! thats why i said 100 lca's is a pretty small....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wats the engine which would be used in lca? and wats its thrust?


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## you are fired

flanker143 said:


> plz do not compare iaf to paf ....... iaf is already much better than paf ..... we must see the chinese threat !!!! thats why i said 100 lca's is a pretty small....



well the right word will be 

Chinese + paf 

we have to be ready for worst condition


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## flanker143

> Wats the engine which would be used in lca? and wats its thrust?



lca mk1 uses fe 404in20 engines ... but iaf is not happy with the thrust ... so lca mk2 version which will come with improved avionics , aesa radar and a 95-100kn class engine .... for which contenders(99 engines) are ej200 and fe 414 engines ...ej200 also has tvc on offer but is expensive too thus rising the lca cost !!! m88-kaveri hybrid is also on offer !! which maybe used on further lca's !


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## DESERT FIGHTER

flanker143 said:


> plz do not compare iaf to paf ....... iaf is already much better than paf ..... we must see the chinese threat !!!! thats why i said 100 lca's is a pretty small....



Curosity kills the cat.
65 air battle... wasnt tht enough to bust the myth.
Anyways keep dreaming.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

flanker143 said:


> lca mk1 uses fe 404in20 engines ... but iaf is not happy with the thrust ... so lca mk2 version which will come with improved avionics , aesa radar and a 95-100kn class engine .... for which contenders(99 engines) are ej200 and fe 414 engines ...ej200 also has tvc on offer but is expensive too thus rising the lca cost !!! m88-kaveri hybrid is also on offer !! which maybe used on further lca's !



And when will LCA enter service?
And the mk2 version?
And wats kaveri hybrid?is it somethin out of the failed kaveri or some western product or JV?
By the years end we will have 2 sqadrons of JF-17... for BLK-II a chinese engine with 100 KN which can be increase and is underdevelopment for more modifications per PAFs requirements.So is AESA.And PAC is already testing 4 indigenous Avionics for JF-17.


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## jha

^^ ha how typical...bring 50 yrs. old result which does not matter a bit...
you keep dreaming and live in the past..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

jha said:


> ^^ ha how typical...bring 50 yrs. old result which does not matter a bit...
> you keep dreaming and live in the past..



One should learn frm his mistakes instead of being ignorant.

We learnt lessons frm the past live in the present and hope best for future.... ur problem is different.... u guys live in FUTURE and forget the past and act with ignorance.


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## jha

yes..i agree ..but if ignorance and living i future means we are developing than so be it..
Rather than your method of *We learnt lessons frm the past live in the present * which can clearly be seen in your country i would choose my method any time..

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## Just Yash

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Curosity kills the cat.
> 65 air battle... wasnt tht enough to bust the myth.
> Anyways keep dreaming.



oh boy.... walk up..... its 2010 now

come on man  walk up...

have u seen 1971 air battle where super duper PAF dissolve in Dust?? 

Or 1999 where PAF afraid to even come in the war 

 oh boy stop dreaming and ask your PAF to stop  on 55 year old data

 ....... still sleeping ?????


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## flanker143

> Curosity kills the cat.
> 65 air battle... wasnt tht enough to bust the myth.
> Anyways keep dreaming.



SO U MEAN PAF HAD SUPERIORITY OVER IAF IN 65.....

SO WHY DIDN'T U WIN THE WAR CUZ AIR SUP PLAYS VERY VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN WARS....

WHY DID UR COUNTRY LOST THE WAR WHEN IT HAD SUPERIORITY IN ONE AREA OF WAR ... WHY CUDN'T PAF PROVIDE SUFFICIENT GROUND SUPPORT 
PAK ARMY TO HLP IT WIN THE WAR..... ?????

I TELL U ...*BCOZ IT NEVER HAD UR SO CALLED SUPERIORITY 

PAF SUPERIOR THAN IAF ... THE BIGGEST BULLSHIT I HAV SEEN !!!!

THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT THAT 'PAF IS WEAKER THAN IAF '

BE IT PAST ..PRESENT ..OR FUTURE !!!!!*

and plzz live in the present .... jo ho gaya so ho gaya ... purani baate khodoge to besti tumhari hi hogi .... meri jeb se kya chala jaye ga .....mujhe to bus tumhe theek se yaad dilana hai !!



> And when will LCA enter service?



lca will be getting IOC in starting months of 2011.... apparently march



> And the mk2 version?



mk2 will come in 2013-14..



> And wats kaveri hybrid?is it somethin out of the failed kaveri or some western product or JV?



sort of jv between snecma an drdo

check this one..
http://www.lca-tejas.org/engine.html



> By the years end we will have 2 sqadrons of JF-17...



how many years ?????

by the time lca mk2 gets ready ie 2013 .. we will be already be having 2 squads of lca mk1 ......

and before calling others projects complete faliures (kaveri)....

and name one thing which the ur so called joint venture jf 17(although blk1 has nothing pak made in it ) has better than lca mk1.....armament , radar, engine,payload etc........ 



> for BLK-II a chinese engine with 100 KN which can be increase and is underdevelopment for more modifications per PAFs requirements.So is AESA.And PAC is already testing 4 indigenous Avionics for JF-17.



JAB AYENGE TAB KE BAAT !!!!! FOR THAT MK2 IS ALSO GETTING READY ....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

flanker143 said:


> SO U MEAN PAF HAD SUPERIORITY OVER IAF IN 65.....
> 
> SO WHY DIDN'T U WIN THE WAR CUZ AIR SUP PLAYS VERY VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN WARS....
> 
> WHY DID UR COUNTRY LOST THE WAR WHEN IT HAD SUPERIORITY IN ONE AREA OF WAR ... WHY CUDN'T PAF PROVIDE SUFFICIENT GROUND SUPPORT
> PAK ARMY TO HLP IT WIN THE WAR..... ????????




Do u consider 65 an indian victory?indian govt doesnt.



> I TELL U ...*BCOZ IT NEVER HAD UR SO CALLED SUPERIORITY
> 
> PAF SUPERIOR THAN IAF ... THE BIGGEST BULLSHIT I HAV SEEN !!!!
> 
> THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT THAT 'PAF IS WEAKER THAN IAF '
> 
> BE IT PAST ..PRESENT ..OR FUTURE !!!!!*




Wat do u call air domination? we destroyed quarter of ur SUPER SHITKI AIRFORCE?
The weak PAF molested ur super sonic jets...

Wat else is air dominance? oh wait.... is it the fake b.s tht IAF destroyed 100 paf jets



> and plzz live in the present .... jo ho gaya so ho gaya ... purani baate khodoge to besti tumhari hi hogi .... meri jeb se kya chala jaye ga .....mujhe to bus tumhe theek se yaad dilana hai !!



 nice BULLSHYT





> how many years ?????



By this years end 2010.


> by the time lca mk2 gets ready ie 2013 .. we will be already be having 2 squads of lca mk1 ......



And we will have BLK-II squadrons in service.



> and before calling others projects complete faliures (kaveri)....
> 
> and name one thing which the ur so called joint venture jf 17(although blk1 has nothing pak made in it ) has better than lca mk1.....armament , radar, engine,payload etc........




Again B.S ur typical rant?
I dont think i should even reply to this crap... lol INDIGENOUS L.C.A...INDIGENOUS ARJUNK....INDIGENOUS RUSSIAN MISSILES.



> JAB AYENGE TAB KE BAAT !!!!! FOR THAT MK2 IS ALSO GETTING READY ....



First make L.C.A simple mk-1 in service... leave MK2 


@ the yash guy... even a half wit would understand 99 was not a war.. no arty,air support or regular army or anything was involved...


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## Hindustan Fighter

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And when will LCA enter service?
> And the mk2 version?
> And wats kaveri hybrid?is it somethin out of the failed kaveri or some western product or JV?
> By the years end we will have 2 sqadrons of JF-17... for BLK-II a chinese engine with 100 KN which can be increase and is underdevelopment for more modifications per PAFs requirements.So is AESA.And PAC is already testing 4 indigenous Avionics for JF-17.



No absolutely not possible, PAF is not going to have 2 squadrons of JF-17 by this year end. At the most one squadron completed i.e. 18 jets.
There is no official source or news confirming that 
- PAF's block 2 will have Chinese engine (also there is no source stating that WS-13 produces 100 KN. Currently it is stated to produce 86 KN thats all)
-Also even if china equips FC-1 with their WS-13 engine (86 KN) even by next 2 years, there is no official statements from PAF that it is willing to use it.
- Also there is no official source mentioning that Block 2 will have AESA radar. As per earlier official plan it was suppose to have french MSA radar, even that is now a question mark. 

Also currently order has only been placed for 50 block 1 JF-17. The further order will depend upon China's willingness to provides soft loans to PAF.

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## trident2010

Guys please do not start the unnecessary arguments. We already have many threads doing LCA vs JF-17 fight.

To the topic, any information regarding AoA of final IOC config. with full weapons load ??


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## flanker143

> Do u consider 65 an indian victory?indian govt doesnt.



well u couldn't take Kashmir by aggression which was ur prime motive...that was ur loss and we were able save Kashmir from ur dirty hands ..thats our victory !!!



> Quote:
> by the time lca mk2 gets ready ie 2013 .. we will be already be having 2 squads of lca mk1 ......
> And we will have BLK-II squadrons in service.



DREAM ON !!!!



> Quote:
> and before calling others projects complete faliures (kaveri)....
> 
> and name one thing which the ur so called joint venture jf 17(although blk1 has nothing pak made in it ) has better than lca mk1.....armament , radar, engine,payload etc........
> 
> Again B.S ur typical rant?
> I dont think i should even reply to this crap... lol INDIGENOUS L.C.A...INDIGENOUS ARJUNK....INDIGENOUS RUSSIAN MISSILES.



the point isin't u dont think u should reply .... actually the point is u CAN'T !!!!!

and wats lol in indigenous lca .....lol is in jointly fkd (jf)17 and in ur renamed al kabad tank



> First make L.C.A simple mk-1 in service... leave MK2



don't u worry .. even it its present state it is more than enough to bake ur *** !!



> @ the yash guy... even a half wit would understand 99 was not a war.. no arty,air support or regular army or anything was involved...



well well IA from our side was fully involved ...... and from ur side insurgents terrorists(comprising ur army officials) ahem or i should say ur REGULAR ARMY was also involved !!

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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> I think they want AMCA for the strinke role and the replacement of Mig-27 and Jaguar in the coming decades , probably after 2020.



Yes that was the first intention, but special capabilities could it offer for strike that FGFA and a UCAV (Aura) couldn't?
See the difference in F22 and F35 is, twin engine geared for air superiority (SC, TVC, manouverability, speed) vs. single engine fighters, which has strike in mind and therefor an internal weapon bay, that can carry several A2G weapons. FGFA and AMCA instead, will both be twin engine fighters with TVC and I doubt that AMCA could carry more weapons than the FGFA will in its 2 weapon bays.

Also FGFA will come from 2018 onwards and 250 are expected to be replaced. Upgraded, to remain in service till 2025 will be 36x Mig 27, 69x Mig 29, 51x Mirage and up to 100 Jaguars, so in numbers FGFA will replace these fighters anyway right?



jha said:


> The moment you make LCA stealth and try to make it like F-35,there is no other option other than using two engines..we will need atleast 150KN thrust for such a plane..where will we get an engine like this..and spending money again to develop such engine will result in waste of time and money.
> Isn't it better to use two Kaveri in place of one imported engines..



No jha, my intention was never to make it similar to F35, exactly because F35 is a medium class fighter. My point was, with FGFA and Aura for the heavier strike roles, wouldn't it make more sense to have a light and cost-effective redesign of LCA for the light strike roles, instead another medium class twin engine fighter for nearly the same roles as FGFA and the UCAV?

Like this:

Heavy strikes with Brahmos, or 1500 Kg KAB bombs for example - FGFA 
Heavy deep penetration strikes - UCAV
SEAD - UCAV 
Medium to heavy strikes MMRCA and MKI
CAS an light strikes - stealthy LCA M3 and LCA MK2

As you can see, AMCA would be in class, or strike capabilities exactly just like aircrafts we already have, or will get anyway, so why bother with high development and operational costs?
Also if some of the early reports of Pak Fa / FGFA are true, we asked the Russians for a smaller single engine redesign of Pak Fa, which they denied. So wouldn't that also speak more for a stealthy LCA, instead of AMCA?

It's just a general question, to get some other views (brainstorming) about what would be the better choice for IAF beyond 2020, especially in terms of operational benefit of such a fighter, so maybe we could discuss this, before talking about details, what do you think?


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## jha

well if they decide to build stealth UCAV then i am all for AMCA program to stop...but i dont see much progress in the area just some drawings like AURA...


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## sudhir007

trident2010 said:


> Guy please do not start the unnecessary arguments. We already have many threads doing LCA vs JF-17 fight.
> 
> To the topic, any information regarding AoA of final IOC config. with full weapons load ??



the final testing of IOC AoA and weapon load start in oct. this yr at that time all lsp ready with radar and other avionics form the production version.


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## LCA Tejas

sudhir007 said:


> the final testing of IOC AoA and weapon load start in oct. this yr at that time all lsp ready with radar and other avionics form the production version.



Way to go mate, LCA is Going to be a part of the IAF arsenal soon....


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## sudhir007

LCA Tejas said:


> Way to go mate, LCA is Going to be a part of the IAF arsenal soon....


yes dear from the next yr it will be a part of IAF. hal handed over ALL 5 LSP to iaf for testing and training and make as per news 8 a/c by the end of 2011. So we have around 16 lca in IAF at end of 2011 yr.


----------



## LCA Tejas

sudhir007 said:


> yes dear from the next yr it will be a part of IAF. hal handed over ALL 5 LSP to iaf for testing and training and make as per news 8 a/c by the end of 2011. So we have around 16 lca in IAF at end of 2011 yr.



Awsome Bro, Thanks for the Update


----------



## Justin Joseph

*Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight*

*Bangalore: Test pilots flying Indias much-debated home-grown fighter Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft-LCA) will soon experience a cool and compact cockpit.*

*The fifth limited series production (LSP-5) platform of Tejas, set to fly in the first week of August, will have an onboard re-arranged and modified cockpit to increase the comfort levels of the pilot.
Program director (combat aircraft) and director of Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) PS Subramanyam told DNA that the layout changes will make the glass cockpit more pilot-friendly and even enhance its night flying capabilities.* 

*The new cockpit will be a pilots delight, said Subramanyam.
The pilots are happy as they are also doubling up as designers. Our efforts are to bring down the workload of pilots during the mission. All the 12 pilots who were part of the Tejas programme from the beginning have contributed their bit to the cockpit modifications. The pilot is the man in action and our role is to ensure that we give him everything he needs while flying, he explained.* 

Air Marshal PK Barbora, vice-chief of Indian Air Force (IAF), told DNA that a user-friendly and smart cockpit would make the hand-eye coordination perfect.
*
Your hands must be able to move around relatively easily, the way you normally do. Even if theres an emergency, the right signal must come to you instantly enabling you to take swift action. Hence, a cockpit plays a decisive role, Barbora said.*
*
Sources in the Indian Air Force(IAF) said that the information flow to the pilot has increased 10-fold as compared to before. Earlier the pilot had to manually involve in many actions, but today he is fed information intelligently in a format which can input it. This will enable him to choose the correct weapon and use them very optimally. Today the data flow to the pilot and back is monitored by the ground base, sensors, other aircraft and Air Borne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Hence, the cockpit has to be suited to various networking options, an IAF official with Air HQ said.*

Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight - dnaindia.com

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Indiarox

Tejas cockpit




[/URL][/IMG]




[/URL][/IMG]

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Nav

Justin Joseph said:


> *Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight*
> 
> *Bangalore: Test pilots flying Indias much-debated home-grown fighter Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft-LCA) will soon experience a cool and compact cockpit.*
> 
> *The fifth limited series production (LSP-5) platform of Tejas, set to fly in the first week of August, will have an onboard re-arranged and modified cockpit to increase the comfort levels of the pilot.
> Program director (combat aircraft) and director of Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) PS Subramanyam told DNA that the layout changes will make the glass cockpit more pilot-friendly and even enhance its night flying capabilities.*
> 
> *The new cockpit will be a pilots delight, said Subramanyam.
> The pilots are happy as they are also doubling up as designers. Our efforts are to bring down the workload of pilots during the mission. All the 12 pilots who were part of the Tejas programme from the beginning have contributed their bit to the cockpit modifications. The pilot is the man in action and our role is to ensure that we give him everything he needs while flying, he explained.*
> 
> Air Marshal PK Barbora, vice-chief of Indian Air Force (IAF), told DNA that a user-friendly and smart cockpit would make the hand-eye coordination perfect.
> *
> Your hands must be able to move around relatively easily, the way you normally do. Even if theres an emergency, the right signal must come to you instantly enabling you to take swift action. Hence, a cockpit plays a decisive role, Barbora said.*
> *
> Sources in the Indian Air Force(IAF) said that the information flow to the pilot has increased 10-fold as compared to before. Earlier the pilot had to manually involve in many actions, but today he is fed information intelligently in a format which can input it. This will enable him to choose the correct weapon and use them very optimally. Today the data flow to the pilot and back is monitored by the ground base, sensors, other aircraft and Air Borne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Hence, the cockpit has to be suited to various networking options, an IAF official with Air HQ said.*
> 
> Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight - dnaindia.com



when wil india induct their 25 year old babe? So much contribution frm West, Israel in Lca, bt not working


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## LCA Tejas

Yes, Make it the paradise For pilot.... Which tejas already is according to those who Piloted it.


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## Justin Joseph

Navkhan said:


> when wil india induct their 25 year old babe? So much contribution frm West, Israel in Lca, bt not working



25 year old????? are u OK??????

Also, we want best no some cheap junk that's why it's taking its own sweet time.

"Bhadiya Biryani dhimi aag par hi banti hai"


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## Jazzbot

seems pretty good cockpit..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## M8R

JF-17 Cockpit


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## LCA Tejas

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;945607 said:


> JF-17 Cockpit



Chinese cockpits are Cool.... But we are In here for tejas


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## Jazzbot

lol what's the point posting JF-17 cockpits here.. lol


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## sudhir007

> The fifth limited series production (LSP-5) platform of Tejas, s*et to fly in the first week of August,*


But when the LSP-4 Ist flight news come that LSP-5 will be fly by end of this month. again delay in 2month


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## Indiarox

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;945607 said:


> JF-17 Cockpit


Post Reported


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## Kinetic

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;945607 said:


> JF-17 Cockpit



Why you posted JF-17's cockpit? Are those larger LCD makes JF-17 better? Than also wrong!!!* The second image is of Mig-29k's cockpit.* 

This is Eurofighter's cockpit...


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## Kinetic

Navkhan said:


> when wil india induct their 25 year old babe? So much contribution frm West, Israel in Lca, bt not working



Dude Tejas actual development programme started in early nineties so the programme is less than two decades old. After that sanctions in 1998 due to nuke test further slowed it. India depended on US for certain technologies that she denied so we had to develop them in-house and took time. Every new fighter has something from other countries. Eurofighter built by four nations, J-10 got huge helps and systems from Russia and Israel, Griipen has so many sub-systems from US and other European countries, even SU-30MKI got many systems from Israel, India and other countries.


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## Indiarox

Kinetic said:


> Why you posted JF-17's cockpit? Are those larger LCD makes JF-17 better? Than also wrong!!!* The second image is of Mig-29k's cockpit.*
> 
> This is Eurofighter's cockpit...


Why post pic of the EF's cockpit???


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## Kinetic

Justin Joseph said:


> *Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight*
> 
> *Bangalore: Test pilots flying Indias much-debated home-grown fighter Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft-LCA) will soon experience a cool and compact cockpit.*
> 
> *The fifth limited series production (LSP-5) platform of Tejas, set to fly in the first week of August, will have an onboard re-arranged and modified cockpit to increase the comfort levels of the pilot.
> Program director (combat aircraft) and director of Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) PS Subramanyam told DNA that the layout changes will make the glass cockpit more pilot-friendly and even enhance its night flying capabilities.*
> 
> *The new cockpit will be a pilots delight, said Subramanyam.
> The pilots are happy as they are also doubling up as designers. Our efforts are to bring down the workload of pilots during the mission. All the 12 pilots who were part of the Tejas programme from the beginning have contributed their bit to the cockpit modifications. The pilot is the man in action and our role is to ensure that we give him everything he needs while flying, he explained.*
> 
> Air Marshal PK Barbora, vice-chief of Indian Air Force (IAF), told DNA that a user-friendly and smart cockpit would make the hand-eye coordination perfect.
> *
> Your hands must be able to move around relatively easily, the way you normally do. Even if theres an emergency, the right signal must come to you instantly enabling you to take swift action. Hence, a cockpit plays a decisive role, Barbora said.*
> *
> Sources in the Indian Air Force(IAF) said that the information flow to the pilot has increased 10-fold as compared to before. Earlier the pilot had to manually involve in many actions, but today he is fed information intelligently in a format which can input it. This will enable him to choose the correct weapon and use them very optimally. Today the data flow to the pilot and back is monitored by the ground base, sensors, other aircraft and Air Borne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Hence, the cockpit has to be suited to various networking options, an IAF official with Air HQ said.*
> 
> Tejas cockpit will be a pilot's delight - dnaindia.com



Though Tejas cockpit is not bad I wish they come with new and advanced cockpit configuration. Good to see pilots contributed in the design of cockpit, after all they will fly the fighter. Waiting for August to see the new cockpit.


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## Kinetic

Indiarox said:


> Why post pic of the EF's cockpit???



For comparing with Tejas cockpit. It doesn't look much advanced than Tejas cockpit but it still a more advanced fighter. That means cockpit is a part of the aircraft but its not the only criteria to be a good fighter. Larger LCD doesn't mean a better fighter.


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## Indiarox

Kinetic said:


> For comparing with Tejas cockpit. It doesn't look much advanced than Tejas cockpit but it still a more advanced fighter. That means cockpit is a part of the aircraft but its not the only criteria to be a good fighter. Larger LCD doesn't mean a better fighter.


Thanks for the clarifacation


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## M8R

Kinetic said:


> Why you posted JF-17's cockpit? Are those larger LCD makes JF-17 better? Than also wrong!!!* The second image is of Mig-29k's cockpit.*
> 
> This is Eurofighter's cockpit...


Posted just for comparison of both Ac's cockpit as both Tejas and JF-17 are in same class and concept fighter..Yes, sorry about the second pic - Deleted it now - Google search gave me that pic for jf-17 cockpit.



The first pic is Thunder Cockpit's though.


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## Sri

This is inline with what Ajay shukla has said.
Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine

As he said this might give additional weight reduction of 300 kgs


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## Chaluboy

Hope the engine, avionics, weaponry, radar all delight the pilots as well ...


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## sancho

jha said:


> well if they decide to build stealth UCAV then i am all for AMCA program to stop...but i dont see much progress in the area just some drawings like AURA...



True, but so is AMCA or? Besides the windtunel model, there is nothing official, not even if the project is cleared yet, not to forget that most of it is dependend on LCA to be ready.
A UCAV development should be even easier, because you need less techs (no radar, less avionics, ejection seat, or a cockpit...), even the stealth design should be easier, because it don't need to be very manouverable for air combats. The most important point is the unmanned control, where we need the experience from UAV developments.

Now to you point regarding a higher thrust engine, I agree with you but don't we have the chance to improve Kaveri now? 
LCA MK2 will get a foreign engine with 95 - 100kN, but the US is offering even the GE 414 EPE with around 117kN, if we fund it. The EJ 200 engine is said to have a potential to improve it up to 120kN and is offereing us 3D TVC if we fund it and the M88 engine from Snecma, which is offered for a co-development with Kaveri engine also has 2 improvement stages. M88-3 with 90kN and M88-4 with up to 110kN and all these are possible options for Kaveri improvements, which could be used in a LCA Mk3 version.

To redesign LCAs airframe and fuselage for stealth should also not be a problem, only the internal weapon bays could be tricky, because one must redesign the fuselage for more space to carry at least some AAMs or light A2G weapons internally.

So redesigning LCA to a stealthy version and develop a UCAV could be easier than developing AMCA, not to forget the operational benefits of single engine fighters and UCAVS.


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## gogbot

Some look at India's avionics 

Weaponized Dhurv







LCH front cockpit




LCH from cockpit for the prototype





LCA Tejas cockpit


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## gogbot

Some Sukhoi Cokpits

MKI FW





MKI BK





Su-30 MKK FW





MKK BK





Su-35





PAK-FA ?






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J-11B ?


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## gogbot

Now people may consider this bit off-topic , but since MMRCA will the other latest Addition to out fleet , it stands to reason how the avionic on the Tejas can compare to the some of the best planes available for export now.

Saab Gripen NG






Dassult Rafale






Ef-2000






MIg-29K/Mig-35






F-16N






F-18






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J-10 ?


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## gogbot

Back to LCA Tejas now ,

More pic's










Supposed Rear Tejas cockpit







Tejas simulator

http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=279&g2_serialNumber=2

http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=275&g2_serialNumber=3


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## Hulk

gogbot said:


> Back to LCA Tejas now ,
> 
> More pic's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supposed Rear Tejas cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas simulator
> 
> http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=279&g2_serialNumber=2
> 
> http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=275&g2_serialNumber=3



Either it is problem with the Photo or this looks not so gr8 to me. However I am not an expert. I am just looking at looks.


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## gogbot

Old article but still relevant

*Upgrade of second tranche of 40 MiG-27Ms to the UPG-2 standard ​*Friday, December 04, 2009
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The Indian Air Force&#65533;s (IAF) ambitious plan of upgrading a second tranche of 40 MiG-27Ms to the UPG-2 standard is now likely to be realised in the near future, thanks to the official sanction being accorded to this longstanding project in the aftermath of defence minister A.K. Antony&#65533;s official visit to Moscow between October 14-15 to chair the the 9th meeting of the India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC). To date, the IAF has taken delivery of 40 MiG-27UPG-1 tactical strike aircraft from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) &#65533; these being subjected to only a limited upgrade of the navigation-and-attack system.* Under the UPG-2 tranche, 40 MiG-27Ms will be subjected to a comprehensive service life extension package that will include the installation of a new navigation-and-attack avionics package &#65533; known as DARIN-3 &#65533; and electronic warfare suite developed by the state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation&#65533;s Bangalore-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), and a re-engining programme that will see the MiG-27M&#65533;s existing Klimov-developed R29B-300 turbofan being replaced by a NPO Saturn-developed AL-31F turbofan (with a service life of 2,000 hours) incorporating a FADEC system.* This same engine is currently being co-produced by HAL and Russia&#65533;s UFA Engine Industrial Association JSC for the Su-30MKI. The UPG-2 upgrades will be jointly carried out by HAL and Russia&#65533;s United Aircraft Corp (UAC).

*The DARIN-3 avionics upgrade package was originally developed for another of the IAF&#65533;s ambitious project &#65533; the avionics upgrade-cum-re-engining of approximately 120 SEPECAT/HAL-built Jaguar IS interdictor/strike aircraft. The package includes the third-generation DARIN-3 navigation-system system and an integrated defensive aids suite, both of which have been designed and integrated by DARE, using several avionics LRUs originally developed for the Tejas LCA.*




The DARIN-3 cockpit for the Jaguar IS, shown at the Aero India 2009 expo, features the same HUD as that on the Tejas LCA, along with* three large MFD-55 AMLCDs supplied by THALES-Samtel Display Systems, and HOTAS controls, all utilising a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus.* It remains to be seen if these upgraded Jaguars (about 120 in all to be upgraded in batches of 61 and 59 and remain in service till 2022) will also be equipped with the fly-by-wire flight control system, which was tested out by BAE Systems way back in the mid-Eighties on the Jaguar. *The core avionics computer for both the to-be-upgraded Jaguar IS and MiG-27Ms will be the open systems architecture mission computer (OSAMC), originally developed by DARE and now being series-produced by an India-US joint venture involving HAL, Edge Tech India and US-based Edgewood Ventures LLC.* A version of the OSAMC is presently on board the Su-30MKI and upgraded MiG-27UPG-1s and Jaguar IM maritime strike aircraft (upgraded earlier to the DARIN-2 standard). For all-weather standoff attacks using precision-guided munitions,* both the upgraded Jaguar IS and MiG-27UPG-2s will be equipped with RAFAEL Litening-3 laser designation pods as well as ELTA&#65533;s EL/L-8212 jamming pods.*

The IAF is anxious to fast-track the service life-extension-cum-upgrading of both the 120 Jaguar IS strike aircraft (thereby recognized them for tactical interdiction) and the follow-on 40 MiG-27Ms (thereby having a dedicated force of 40 MiG-27UPG-1s and 40 MiG-27UPG-2s for close air support), with the Su-30MKIs taking up the deep interdiction responsibilities. IAF HQ has already firmed up its ASQRs for the ambitious Jaguar IS upgrade programme, which, like that for the MiG-27UPG-2, will also have a re-engining component.

IAF Darin-2 Jaguar cockpit






Mig-27 UPG-1 cockpit





Mirage Cockpit ?







Mig-21 Bison










.


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## jha

Building an UCAV is not that easy..we still dont know how much capability we have in the field of Remote Split operations...building smart UCAVs is just not possible..there is also huge question mark on HAL/ISRO making a capable remotely operated UCAV..

however hope for the best..and if LCA is modified to become a stealth UCAV then there will no one more happy than me..


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## sancho

jha said:


> Building an UCAV is not that easy..we still dont know how much capability we have in the field of Remote Split operations...building smart UCAVs is just not possible..there is also huge question mark on HAL/ISRO making a capable remotely operated UCAV..



True, alone we won't do it for sure, but possibly with the French (NEURON), the Russians (Mig Skat), or the Israelis that already are co-developing the unmanned helicopters with us.


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## WAQAS119

*F35 Cockpit*


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## WAQAS119

gogbot said:


> J-10 ?



*J 10's cockpit* (though not very sure)


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## jha

*Israelis that already are co-developing the unmanned helicopters with us.*

Now thats a new one for me...care to elaborate..will be grateful..


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## black flame

gogbot said:


> MIg-29K/Mig-35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hey the pic of mig 29k/mig 35 has been posted earlier by our pak member and claimed to be jf 17's cockpit need clarification on that is the cockpit mig's or jf 17's
> 
> thanks


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## sam27

Do they have 6 CD changer or IPOD pluggin in the cockpit. I wonder wt wld pilots do wen they get bored flying these jets.


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## Hindustan Fighter

black flame said:


> gogbot said:
> 
> 
> 
> MIg-29K/Mig-35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hey the pic of mig 29k/mig 35 has been posted earlier by our pak member and claimed to be jf 17's cockpit need clarification on that is the cockpit mig's or jf 17's
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is mig 29K's cockpit (simulator).
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Dash

jha said:


> *Israelis that already are co-developing the unmanned helicopters with us.*
> 
> Now thats a new one for me...care to elaborate..will be grateful..


Hi Jha -

I dont have a proper link as of now on the Indo-Isreli JV on NRUAV (Naval rotary UAV), but below are some links for the time being..

Indian Navy developing new generation UAV



> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: NorthropGrumman Tells Indian Navy, "NRUAV Not Mature, Buy FireScout Instead"



IAI Introduces a Naval Rotary UAV at IMDEX 09

an extract from the above link..



> *MALAT unveiled here the Maritime Naval Rotary Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (NRUAV) being developed with under cooperation with India. *In fact, the platform for the first *NRUAV is the Chetak (Alouette III), widely used by the Indian Navy*. The helicopter could be deployed for mission of 6 hours, up to a distance of 120 km from the launching vessel.



Here is the link on bharat rakhshak on how it looks.

Aero India 2009 :: Skylark and NRUAV Poster [Bharat-Rakshak.com]

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## baker

Mods please change the Thread topic to 

"cockpit comparison thread"


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## jha

Just a kind request to serious posters...please lets try to keep the thread as clean as possible and carry forward the technical discussions more...


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## sancho

jha said:


> *Israelis that already are co-developing the unmanned helicopters with us.*
> 
> Now thats a new one for me...care to elaborate..will be grateful..



I meant the NRUAV that will be developed for IN:







Here the IAI brochure:

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/2/36182.pdf


Israel already have much experience with unmanned systems and would be a good partner for a UCAV development.


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## PracticalGuy

*Final Configuration Tejas To Fly In August*

Indias fifth limited series production (LSP-5) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will fly in the first week of August.

P.S. Subramanyam, program director for combat aircraft and director of the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), tells AVIATION WEEK that designers, engineers and scientists from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. are working together to make the LSP-5 a complete, final configuration platform.

We are aiming for an August first week flight, and slight modifications to the cockpit are being done now in mutual consultations with the test pilots from National Flight Test Center. These modifications will make Tejas a complete services version, Subramanyam says.

Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, vice chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), says it is important for any fighter jet program to develop cockpits that fulfill pilots growing needs.

Its all about how fast you can execute a mission, Barbora says. Here the hand-eye coordination becomes crucial and you should also be able to move around your hands the way you normally do.

LSP-5 will be the 11th platform to join the flight line, and ADA is planning to make LSP-6 a completely experimental aircraft.

We are confident of LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving [the] way for the initial operational clearance, Subramanyam says.

The Tejas program received a major boost following ADAs establishment of a project monitoring team consisting of IAF experts, headed by Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani. These people are the pacemakers, and theres a definite boost to [the] program after their involvement two-and-a-half years back, Subramanyam says.

The Ministry of Defense, which recently announced a series of reforms in the Defense Research and Development Organization, is also planning a Mk-II version of Tejas, which features an engine with more thrust. ADA is hoping to fly the Tejas Mk-II by December 2014.




Final Configuration Tejas To Fly In August | AVIATION WEEK

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PracticalGuy

Indias fifth limited series production (LSP-5) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will fly in the first week of August.

P.S. Subramanyam, program director for combat aircraft and director of the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), tells AVIATION WEEK that designers, engineers and scientists from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. are working together to make the LSP-5 a complete, final configuration platform.

We are aiming for an August first week flight, and slight modifications to the cockpit are being done now in mutual consultations with the test pilots from National Flight Test Center. These modifications will make Tejas a complete services version, Subramanyam says.

Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, vice chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), says it is important for any fighter jet program to develop cockpits that fulfill pilots growing needs.

Its all about how fast you can execute a mission, Barbora says. Here the hand-eye coordination becomes crucial and you should also be able to move around your hands the way you normally do.

LSP-5 will be the 11th platform to join the flight line, and ADA is planning to make LSP-6 a completely experimental aircraft.

We are confident of LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving [the] way for the initial operational clearance, Subramanyam says.

The Tejas program received a major boost following ADAs establishment of a project monitoring team consisting of IAF experts, headed by Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani. These people are the pacemakers, and theres a definite boost to [the] program after their involvement two-and-a-half years back, Subramanyam says.

The Ministry of Defense, which recently announced a series of reforms in the Defense Research and Development Organization, is also planning a Mk-II version of Tejas, which features an engine with more thrust. ADA is hoping to fly the Tejas Mk-II by December 2014.

Final Configuration Tejas To Fly In August | AVIATION WEEK

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## gogbot

PracticalGuy said:


> India&#8217;s fifth limited series production (LSP-5) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will fly in the first week of August.
> 
> P.S. Subramanyam, program director for combat aircraft and director of the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), tells AVIATION WEEK that designers, engineers and scientists from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. are working together to make the LSP-5 a complete, final configuration platform.
> 
> &#8220;We are aiming for an August first week flight, and slight modifications to the cockpit are being done now in mutual consultations with the test pilots from National Flight Test Center. These modifications will make Tejas a complete services version,&#8221; Subramanyam says.
> 
> Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, vice chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), says it is important for any fighter jet program to develop cockpits that fulfill pilots&#8217; growing needs.
> 
> &#8220;It&#8217;s all about how fast you can execute a mission,&#8221; Barbora says. &#8220;Here the hand-eye coordination becomes crucial and you should also be able to move around your hands the way you normally do.&#8221;
> 
> LSP-5 will be the 11th platform to join the flight line, and ADA is planning to make LSP-6 a completely experimental aircraft.
> *
> &#8220;We are confident of LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving [the] way for the initial operational clearance,&#8221; Subramanyam says.
> *
> The Tejas program received a major boost following ADA&#8217;s establishment of a project monitoring team consisting of IAF experts, headed by Air Vice Marshal Shankar Mani. &#8220;These people are the pacemakers, and there&#8217;s a definite boost to [the] program after their involvement two-and-a-half years back,&#8221; Subramanyam says.
> 
> The Ministry of Defense, which recently announced a series of reforms in the Defense Research and Development Organization, is also planning a Mk-II version of Tejas, which features an engine with more thrust. ADA is hoping to fly the Tejas Mk-II by December 2014.
> 
> Final Configuration Tejas To Fly In August | AVIATION WEEK



How many Tejas aircraft ,have we built this year and last ?

These things are just coming of the line and people say we can only make a 8 a year ?


----------



## gogbot

baker said:


> Mods please change the Thread topic to
> 
> "cockpit comparison thread"



get over it.


----------



## black flame

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;945607 said:


> JF-17 Cockpit



this is not jf 17 cockpit it is mig 29k's cockpit so edit ur post


----------



## M8R

black flame said:


> this is not jf 17 cockpit it is mig 29k's cockpit so edit ur post


It is..here's another picture.




PAF Officer


----------



## Hulk

gogbot said:


> How many Tejas aircraft ,have we built this year and last ?
> 
> These things are just coming of the line and people say we can only make a 8 a year ?



I guess the initial ones will come at slower rate as they test new system, so includes testing time, also they cannot do parallel manufacturing at that time.


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## gowthamraj

One question for limited series aircraft-6 to be experimental, he says then how it inducted in first sq


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## Sri

I think IOC does not require full squadron strength. E.g. only 4 Mig 29K were inducted. I think by IOC there will be atleast 6 aircrafts available for induction. 

Seniors pl comment.


----------



## Kompromat

*Fellows:* Do not make this a JFT VS LCA Thread as it does not prove anything - we only will know when they will clash in the skies .


----------



## sudhir007

sorry for off topic 
is it possible that we can added MMR into Jaguar and Mig-27. As i read it that both a/c does not have any radar ???


----------



## jha

yes..i was thinking the same...maybe in DARIN-3 this could be done..


----------



## Dark Angel

> &#8220;We are confident of LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving [the] way for the initial operational clearance,&#8221; Subramanyam says.


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## jha

There is something wrong with HAL..they are churning out LCAs like anything..very unlikely of them..


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## flanker143

what kind of cockpit changes are expected in lsp5 ??


----------



## Tejas-MkII

> ADA is planning to make LSP-6 a completely experimental aircraft.



What kind of experiments they are trying.

I think LSP-6 is for AoA testing.

Also no date is mention for LSP-6, like 5,7 and 8.

I don't know what they ar upto... 

Wish we will hear some think breaking BREAKING NEWS in coming month.


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## Sri

As per Ajay shukla they are going to reduce the the weight of the AC by modifying cockpit

Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine


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## jha

---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------


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## flanker143

the pics u posted r of a jaguar ..... r they planing similar modifications for lca ????


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## jha

Thanks SRI...here is the complete article


The selection of the Tejas LCA&#8217;s new engine in October --- the choice (as the previous post deals with) is between the Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 --- will provide an extra 10 KiloNewtons of thrust to the Tejas. The new engines, however, will start being fitted onto the third Tejas squadron; the first two squadrons, comprising 40 aircraft, would already be in service with the GE F-404 IN-20 engines.

And so the Indian Air Force (IAF) has asked the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to urgently improve the performance of Tejas LCAs fitted with the GE F-404 IN-20 engines. These will power the first two LCA squadrons consisting of 40 fighters.

I visited HAL&#8217;s Bangalore Complex to see how that is being done. HAL has adopted a three-fold strategy:

1. Improving the air intake. 

Top HAL decision-makers pooh-pooh the IAF&#8217;s contention that the LCA&#8217;s air intakes are incorrectly designed, resulting in oxygen starvation and incomplete burning and, therefore, sub-optimal engine power from the F-404s. At the same time, however, steps are being taken to improve air intake, without getting into major redesign that could set back the programme by years. Instead,* auxiliary air intakes are being provided on the sides of the Tejas engine housing* --- similar to those on the Jaguar (see photos).

These auxiliary air intakes comprise of spring-loaded panels that open when engine suction is very high and provide an additional route for airflow into the engine intakes. As you can see in the photos, the spring-loaded panels can be pushed in by manual pressure.

At critical stages in the flight envelope, such as during take-off, rapid climb, sustained turn&#8230; and in any case, when afterburners are on&#8230; the heavy suction from the engines would open the auxiliary air intakes. When the demand for air goes down, such as in level flight, the auxiliary air intakes would close.

HAL designers aver that this would improve the engine performance only in some portions of the flight envelope. They say that during the most critical moments --- which are during sustained turns, in aerial combat --- the auxiliary air intakes would provide only marginally improved performance, if any at all.

A top HAL designer told me, &#8220;There is some merit in [the IAF&#8217;s idea]&#8230; the designers are considering it. There has been a debate for quite some time&#8230; will it really improve to that extent. Where it really matters it may not give added thrust.. in other places it will give.&#8221;

Nevertheless, the fitment of auxiliary air intakes is going ahead, partly because this does not require major re-engineering, nor will it delay the Tejas induction in any way. According to HAL, this will take six months to engineer; later LSPs will incorporate the auxiliary air intakes.

2. Reduction of Tejas' weight. 

*The LCA&#8217;s designers say that the removal of telemetry instrumentation, which is essential during flight testing, will bring the Tejas&#8217; weight down by as much as 300-400 kilos. Re-engineering some of the displays and sub-systems within the cockpit will lop off another 300 kilos; the weight reduction of 600-700 kilos is expected to allow the carriage of more weapons.*

There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas&#8217; weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons&#8230; carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.

But there&#8217;s a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So you&#8217;ll have to shed one ton&#8230; or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. That&#8217;s what happens when a fighter&#8217;s weight goes beyond what was originally planned.

So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament.

3. Increasing control surfaces. 

*The designers say they are considering adding an auxiliary wing (similar to the Eurofighter) to the front portion of the fuselage to increase the control surfaces, and therefore manoeuvrability.* This involves major re-engineering, which cannot be done for the first two squadrons. However, it will be grouped along with the re-design that will be necessary for fitting in the new engine for Tejas No 41 onwards.

The Tejas designers are not unanimous about the utility of an auxiliary wing. Some are of the opinion that the added power that will come from the new engine might make the additional control surfaces superfluous. But the option remains on the table.

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## flanker143

hey guys wats fe414 EPE(enhanced performance engine).... heard it is an upgrade to increase the thrust by 20&#37;

if yes .......will it be used on tejas if fe414 wins ???


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## Dash

flanker143 said:


> hey guys wats fe414 EPE(enhanced performance engine).... heard it is an upgrade to increase the thrust by 20&#37;
> 
> if yes .......will it be used on tejas if fe414 wins ???


This engine was offred on F18 and this is not the same engine that is in LCA engine bid. 

the GeF414EPE was offered as a MRCA bid only I guess. By the way this engine has a thurst of around 120 kN and it will be an overkill for tejas as its a light fighter, the addition of thurst will also compromise weight of Tejas.



The engine air intake upgradation os happening for GE404In engine, i doubt this will be a permanent feature on tejas, coz ultimately you are adding a heavier engine with better thurst where your air intakes need to be designed.

So if they are going for GE engine then this air intake will cost us for tejas Mk2 as it is its not adding much value to its flight performance. It will not happen that they will make design changes now and scrap it in future in favor of GE engine.

however EJ2000 is said to have 90kN which is just about 10 Kn more than GE404IN must be becoming ideal in thsi situation...where even if a change like this happens, but there is possibility that this air intake change will not have to completely altered for Tejas


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## Sri

Hi Dash,

As far as I understand the current EJ provides only 5-6 kn extra thrust [ge404 IN is 84 KN], I think what was on offer is upgraded EJ i.e. around 95-99 kn with TVC. Seniors please comment.

My guess is they will redesign the Air intakes as the Air force is not happy with the current air intakes.

Seniors please let me know if this is true.

Also according to ADA chief they have already formed 2 groups for both the engine changes to LCA. So Air intake changes may already be underway.

Thanks
Sri


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## soaringphnx

Which engine be used in LCA Mk.II? Will the Kaveri be ready atleast for the MCA?


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## jha

flanker143 said:


> the pics u posted r of a jaguar ..... r they planing similar modifications for lca ????



according to AJAY shukla ..they are planning to make intakes Auxilary similar to Jaguar..


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## Sri

Hi Jha,

the Air intake changes are already there in LSP 3 and LSP 4.
https://www.technologyreview.in/files/36827/tejas5.jpg

Thanks
Sri


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## jha

Sri said:


> Hi Dash,
> 
> As far as I understand the current EJ provides only 5-6 kn extra thrust [ge404 IN is 84 KN], I think *what was on offer is upgraded EJ i.e. around 95-99 kn with TVC. Seniors please comment.
> *
> My guess is they will redesign the Air intakes as the Air force is not happy with the current air intakes.
> 
> Seniors please let me know if this is true.
> 
> Also according to ADA chief they have already formed 2 groups for both the engine changes to LCA. So Air intake changes may already be underway.
> 
> Thanks
> Sri




yes..the engine on offer is upgraded EJ-2000 with 95-100KN thrust..
although currently it is having 60 KN dry thrust and 89 KN reheat thrust..

and yes as a lollipop they are offering single crystal tech...

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## jha

Sri said:


> Hi Jha,
> 
> the Air intake changes are already there in LSP 3 and LSP 4.
> https://www.technologyreview.in/files/36827/tejas5.jpg
> 
> Thanks
> Sri



Thanks..i just read the shukla's report..


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## zeus

gowthamraj said:


> One question for limited series aircraft-6 to be experimental, he says then how it inducted in first sq



LSP-6 will be used to further expand AOA and has per source will also be a test bed for AESA Radar


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## Dash

The only question here is current form has 90kN reheat, is it possible for them to get a 100kN engine so soon which can be inducted right away...???

Couldnt that cause delay in Tejas program?, need help in some link or any info anyone has on this.


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## flanker143

> LSP-6 will be used to further expand AOA and has per source will also be a test bed for AESA Radar



which source ..... love to read it my self !!!!!!!! aesa radar ? which one ...India's own ???? u gotta be kiddin me !!!!

if its all true then i'wud be the happiest man on the planet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

plz reply *ASAP*


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## flanker143

> The only question here is current form has 90kN reheat, is it possible for them to get a 100kN engine so soon which can be inducted right away...???
> 
> Couldnt that cause delay in Tejas program?, need help in some link or any info anyone has on this.



Both lca mk2 and mmrca not coming before 2013-14 or even longer ... so lots of time to upgrade and test !!! 

but it all depends upon the mmrca decision (EFT)!!

EFT is no doubt the best fighter/choice as it will not be just buying/selling thing ...lots more will be coming with it !!!


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## sancho

jha said:


> according to AJAY shukla ..they are planning to make intakes Auxilary similar to Jaguar..



Hi jha, I hope you realised that the shukla article is from 2008, so the changes he meant could already be done and maybe they are also a reason why the weight is down to 5.6t empty.



flanker143 said:


> hey guys wats fe414 EPE(enhanced performance engine).... heard it is an upgrade to increase the thrust by 20%
> 
> if yes .......will it be used on tejas if fe414 wins ???



The EPE was offered to India, but it is not developed, so it will need time and fundings and that is something that MoD don't wanted. They rejected the Kaveri-Snecma co-development exactly for that reason, because they don't wanted further delays. The EJ 200 instead is offered with a slight thrust improvements (possibly 90-100kN) and so far Eurojet said they don't need any airframe changes, which should include air intake redesigns.
Imo, the engine that offers the least changes should be choses, to make the induction of LCA MK2 easier and faster!

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## Choppers

*India To Roll Out Tejas Naval Variant Soon​*
Jun 22, 2010

By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India







*The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft&#8217;s (LCA) naval prototype (NP-1) will be rolled out for the first time on July 6 here in Bengaluru*, with Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Nirmal Verma on hand, sources tell AVIATION WEEK.

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is in charge of the design and development of Tejas variants, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), ADA&#8217;s principal partner and main manufacturer, are currently giving the aircraft a final structural fine-tuning at HAL&#8217;s Aircraft Research and Development Center.

&#8220;The rollout of the aircraft signals that the platform is structurally complete, equipment installed, and plumbing and wiring completed,&#8221; a source says. &#8220;It will be on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power. A rollout is also a precursor to the next phase of ground-based system integration testing, engine ground run, taxi trials and the first flight.&#8221;

The NP-1 will have almost the same system architecture as the Tejas Indian air force trainer version.

*The NP-1 trainer is scheduled to make its first flight by the end of this year and the NP-2 fighter one year after that*. Both can operate from an aircraft carrier with the ski-jump takeoff and arrested recovery concept.

&#8220;The aircraft will get airborne in about 200 meters over the ski jump on the ship, [versus] a land-based takeoff run of about 800 meters,&#8221; a source says. &#8220;Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship. The aircraft then stops in 90 meters, which is about 1/10th of land-based stopping distance. This makes the Tejas naval program extremely challenging, and we are happy with what the Naval Project Team based out of Bangalore has done so far.&#8221;

The 14-member NPT is headed by Cmd. C.D. Balaji (ret.), program director for LCA Navy, operating out of ADA.

*The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned development of LCA Navy in April 2003, and in December 2009 the CCS also approved a Mark-II version with a new engine. NP-1 will fly with a GE-404 power-plant, with 40&#37; of the funding coming from the Indian navy and 60% from the Defense Research and Development Organization. The Tejas naval variant will replace the aging fleet of Sea Harriers, and the navy is said to have made an initial commitment to 50 Tejas after the platform proves its mettle*.

NP-1 Photo: tarmak007.blogspot.com

India To Roll Out Tejas Naval Variant Soon | AVIATION WEEK

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## Choppers

*India To Roll Out Tejas Naval Variant Soon​*
Jun 22, 2010

By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India







*The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft&#8217;s (LCA) naval prototype (NP-1) will be rolled out for the first time on July 6 here in Bengaluru*, with Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Nirmal Verma on hand, sources tell AVIATION WEEK.

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is in charge of the design and development of Tejas variants, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), ADA&#8217;s principal partner and main manufacturer, are currently giving the aircraft a final structural fine-tuning at HAL&#8217;s Aircraft Research and Development Center.

&#8220;The rollout of the aircraft signals that the platform is structurally complete, equipment installed, and plumbing and wiring completed,&#8221; a source says. &#8220;It will be on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power. A rollout is also a precursor to the next phase of ground-based system integration testing, engine ground run, taxi trials and the first flight.&#8221;

The NP-1 will have almost the same system architecture as the Tejas Indian air force trainer version.

*The NP-1 trainer is scheduled to make its first flight by the end of this year and the NP-2 fighter one year after that*. Both can operate from an aircraft carrier with the ski-jump takeoff and arrested recovery concept.

&#8220;The aircraft will get airborne in about 200 meters over the ski jump on the ship, [versus] a land-based takeoff run of about 800 meters,&#8221; a source says. &#8220;Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship. The aircraft then stops in 90 meters, which is about 1/10th of land-based stopping distance. This makes the Tejas naval program extremely challenging, and we are happy with what the Naval Project Team based out of Bangalore has done so far.&#8221;

The 14-member NPT is headed by Cmd. C.D. Balaji (ret.), program director for LCA Navy, operating out of ADA.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned development of LCA Navy in April 2003, and in December 2009 the CCS also approved a Mark-II version with a new engine. NP-1 will fly with a GE-404 power-plant, with 40&#37; of the funding coming from the Indian navy and 60% from the Defense Research and Development Organization. The Tejas naval variant will replace the aging fleet of Sea Harriers, and the navy is said to have made an initial commitment to 50 Tejas after the platform proves its mettle.

NP-1 Photo: tarmak007.blogspot.com

India To Roll Out Tejas Naval Variant Soon | AVIATION WEEK

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## Donatello

A GE engine, means the plane is not all Indian. Hmm, interesting. What is the cost per aircraft?


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## sivadreams

penumbra said:


> A GE engine, means the plane is not all Indian. Hmm, interesting. What is the cost per aircraft?



Whats new in your post. This is well known to everybody and no one claims on the engines. Costing at this stage is difficult to put it from outside as there is no real per unit cost derived. There are lots of parallels between LCA-Tejas and N-LCA at this stage.


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## PracticalGuy

penumbra said:


> A GE engine, means the plane is not all Indian. Hmm, interesting. What is the cost per aircraft?



I bet 100 bucks that you dont know anything about fighter planes...


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## MZUBAIR

PracticalGuy said:


> I bet 100 bucks that you dont know anything about fighter planes...



So, u plz tell us abt jet..........
Its radar is also not Indian


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## PracticalGuy

MZUBAIR said:


> So, u plz tell us abt jet..........
> Its radar is also not Indian



ok ..first.. atleast be sane enough to understand whats the thread is about..

second.. which engines does countries like China, Sweden and yes Pakistan too... who develop their own fighter jets use? 

third..there's already a sticky for LCA..please post your valuable questions there..


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## hboGYT

Why do the Indians have a fetish for double-seaters? Isn't it adding unnecessary weight and reducing air-air performance?


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## gowthamraj

for trolls, it would be pleasure, if you know which engine jf-17 uses. 

Btw RADAR is India's only


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## gubbi

hboGYT said:


> Why do the Indians have a fetish for* double-seaters*? Isn't it adding unnecessary weight and reducing air-air performance?



1. Operational doctrine.

2. Two pairs of hands better than one pair. The pilot flies the aircraft, while the WSO plays "gotcha" with all the toys at his disposal!


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## holysaturn

penumbra said:


> A GE engine, means the plane is not all Indian. Hmm, interesting. What is the cost per aircraft?



there r still better examples.that comment is not intelligent.


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## Star of David

gubbi said:


> 1. Operational doctrine.
> 
> 2. Two pairs of hands better than one pair. The pilot flies the aircraft, while the WSO plays "gotcha" with all the toys at his disposal!



Don't you think operational doctrine is outdated.....or maybe tech hasn't met strategic thinking. Aren't Western flight computers powerful enough to aim and lock onto enemy crafts?


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## Dark Angel

MZUBAIR said:


> So, u plz tell us abt jet..........
> Its radar is also not Indian





Could u enlighten me what is pakistani in JF-17 and by the way the radar is mmr-elta hybrid

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## flanker143

> Could u enlighten me what is pakistani in JF-17 and by the way the radar is mmr-elta hybrid



they can't name anything pak made in their so called joint venture jf17 yet *they shamelessly come to an lca thread to just criticize that it is not indigenous......... *  

anywaz buddy any news on the aesa radar (which one)ed on tejas mk2.... 

also plz tell the max payload of tejas 

every site says its greater than 4tn.... but how much ???


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## southpaw

Choppers said:


> *India To Roll Out Tejas Naval Variant Soon​*
> Jun 22, 2010
> 
> By Anantha Krishnan M.
> BENGALURU, India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) naval prototype (NP-1)
> 
> ...
> 
> The aircraft will get airborne in about 200 meters over the ski jump on the ship, [versus] a land-based takeoff run of about 800 meters, a source says. Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship. The aircraft then stops in 90 meters, which is about 1/10th of land-based stopping distance. This makes the Tejas naval program extremely challenging, and we are happy with what the Naval Project Team based out of Bangalore has done so far.
> *


*

How come they make the same plane with the same engine take off at 200m on carrier vs 800m on land? Can anyone enlighten me on this? Is the max weapon load lesser for the navy? Does the addition of LEVCONS do all the trick? Is there a trade off for adding this? If not, why is this not being added to the IAF versions?*


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## gogbot

> The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned development of LCA Navy in April 2003, and in December 2009 the CCS also approved a Mark-II version with a new engine. NP-1 will fly with a GE-404 power-plant, with *40% of the funding coming from the Indian navy and 60% from the Defense Research and Development Organization*. The Tejas naval variant will replace the aging fleet of Sea Harriers, and the navy is said to have made an initial commitment to 50 Tejas after the platform proves its mettle.



that is how it should , Navy show's good policy 



penumbra said:


> A GE engine, means the plane is not all Indian. Hmm, interesting. What is the cost per aircraft?



How many countries make their own engines ?
At east we have an Engine development program.

Cost per aircraft , is to hard to tell as the final engine has not been decided yet, Two engines have been short-listed 
GE-414 and EJ200
and their commercial bids are now under evaluation.

After engine is selected price can be quoted.

But for now it is ~30 million for the naval version.
~24 million for the current Tejas MkI air force version




MZUBAIR said:


> So, u plz tell us abt jet..........
> Its radar is also not Indian



The MMR radar , has a fully functional Air To air mode , made in India.
The Air to ground functionality , was develop with consultancy from Israeli , as a result it uses an Israeli processor.

India still actively involved in radar development as we are with Engine development. And with almost every major aspect of the fighter.

The Hybrid MMR radar is owned by India , and can be manufactured and sold as we please. it also stands as stepping point for future technologies.

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## gogbot

southpaw said:


> How come they make the same plane with the same engine take off at 200m on carrier vs 800m on land? Can anyone enlighten me on this? Is the max weapon load lesser for the navy? Does the addition of LEVCONS do all the trick? Is there a trade off for adding this? If not, why is this not being added to the IAF versions?



The 200m take of , happens only With STOBAR configuration on carriers .






The Ski jump assists in take of , also the take of most likely also employs more thrust at the start to achieve more list.


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## MZUBAIR

Dark Angel said:


> Could u enlighten me what is pakistani in JF-17 and by the way the radar is mmr-elta hybrid



Go and read JF-17 thread rather tthen asking in LCA thread.

Let me give u a bit note that JF means Joint Fighter.....Jointly developed by China and Pakistan.......just like F-35, Eurofighter etc.

Many things like Jet, design, sensors made by Pakistan .......Chinees Radar KLJ-7 is used in (Technology transfared to PAK). Pakistan made radars like Griffo(used in F-7PG's) can also be fitted.

Now stick to the topic thread .....or for JF-17 info move to JF-17 thread


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## soaringphnx

@ MZUBAIR

It is true that 'JF' in JF-17 stands for 'Joint Fighter'. But JF-17 is only the Pakistani designation. The Chinese have designated it as FC-1 and in case you didn't know, 'FC' stands for 'Fighter China'!!! Does that mean that your Chinese friends do not think of it as a joint venture? 

Okay enough about JF-17. Back to the topic.


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## sudhir007

PracticalGuy said:


> I bet 100 bucks that you dont know anything about fighter planes...



I agree with you


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## Dash

sudhir007 said:


> I agree with you





> Many things like Jet, design, sensors made by Pakistan .......Chinees Radar KLJ-7 is used in (Technology transfared to PAK). Pakistan made radars like Griffo(used in F-7PG's) can also be fitted.



Grifo is Pak made???,,,hmmmm thats news to me....I thought Grifo is owned by selex galileo...


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## black flame

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;946837 said:


> It is..here's another picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Officer



well i do agree its a pak officer but in context to the previous post the picture u posted is of mig 29 simulator......... check the post number 2737 page 183 of the same thread u will find out the difference that the pic u posted is mig 29 indeed and its clear if required zoom it u will see the similarity  

well more over we all know about chinies and need less to say about their reverse engineering talent...............


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## sancho

Star of David said:


> Don't you think operational doctrine is outdated.....or maybe tech hasn't met strategic thinking. Aren't Western flight computers powerful enough to aim and lock onto enemy crafts?



LCA will have only 2 trainers per squadrons, just like any other comparable fighter in the west. The only IAF fighter that has only twin seats is the MKI, because its meant for long range and endurance air superiority missions.
Twin seat config always have advantages in such missions, or in the strike role, that's why twin seat versions often will be used for the strike role. 



southpaw said:


> How come they make the same plane with the same engine take off at 200m on carrier vs 800m on land? Can anyone enlighten me on this? Is the max weapon load lesser for the navy? Does the addition of LEVCONS do all the trick? Is there a trade off for adding this? If not, why is this not being added to the IAF versions?



Regarding the weapon load, we might take the estimations that Saab published for the Sea Gripen to compare it with N-LCA. Saab officials said that the payload of the land based Gripen NG (6t), will be reduced about 1/3 for the Sea Gripen on a STOBAR carriers. For N-LCA from Gorshkov, or Vikrant carriers that means, only 2.7t payload left for fuel tanks and weapons.


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## flanker143

hey guys when is new engine competition going to end ??


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## CONNAN

LCA Tejas Mk-2UPDATE

BY : IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Sources close to idrw.org have informed that Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is currently working on two different design variant for Tejas MK-2, while major changes in both the design are wings position in terms of alignment to make the aircraft more aero dynamic and also to reduce drag, Tejas MK-2 will also have design changes to its fuselage and will have a bigger wing to carry heaver payload, Tejas Mk-2 will also be able to carry more internal fuel due to improvement in fuselage design and wing.

Engine update:

Final negotiations for purchase of new engines for Tejas MK-2 has begun and decision will be soon made public, while both engine manufactures have promised that their engine will easily be integrated with Tejas MK-2 airframe ,but both have asked for 2 years to make some minor changes to the engines and have already provided details regarding this to ADA and HAL , changes mostly likely be change in position of gear box and other pipe systems , once contract is signed modified engines will be delivered by 2012 year end or 2013 and integration into airframe might take place by 2013 year end and first flight might take place by 2014 year end or early 2015 .

Naval Tejas:

Indian Navy have already asked for new engines for the Naval Tejas, and only NP-1 and NP-2 will be powered by General Electric F404-IN20 engine which also powers Tejas MK-1 variant of Indian air force, while Indian Navy other than engine change has not made any change to their original ASR, so most probably Navy will go with Tejas MK-1 Naval Prototype design with higher trust engine rather than Tejas MK-2 design.


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## Choppers

*India Establishing SBTF For Naval Tejas​*
Jun 23, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India






*India is setting up its first shore-based test facility (SBTF) to flight test the naval version of its homegrown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)*.

The SBTF will be established at the naval air station in Goa and will be the third such facility in the world along with those of the U.S. and Ukranian navies. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limiteds (HAL) Aircraft Research and Development Center are concluding last-minute, end-to-end tests in Bengaluru leading up to the aircrafts July 6 rollout (Aerospace DAILY, June 23).

Its a near-perfect recreation of a ship on the shore, a naval source tells AVIATION WEEK. The SBTF at Goa is based on Indias Indigenous Aircraft Carrier [IAC] thats being built at Cochin Shipyard, with the same measurements. The facility simulates an aircraft carrier with ski jump and arrested recovery.

SBTFs steel structure is being constructed by Goa Shipyard, while all civil engineering activities are being conducted by Research &amp; Development Establishment (Engineers), Pune.

The integration and installation work of all the specialized equipment for the facility will be done by the Russians, an official says. This facility is a major boost to the Tejas naval program, as the Indian government had included all the necessary funding for the SBTF program [which] was cleared in 2003. We have been very keenly following this program right from the word go.

The naval test pilots attached to the National Flight Test Center will carry out all the initial flights of the NP-1 and NP-2 naval Tejas prototypes at HALs military airport in Bangalore leading up to the carrier-suitability test (CST). The unit will then move from CST to SBTF. The takeoff area ramp will be ready by the last quarter of 2011 and the landing area will be complete in 2012. A full-fledged telemetry unit also is coming to Goa.

Sources also confirmed that in addition to training Tejas naval pilots, the SBTF will have the ability to train MiG-29K pilots prior to carrier operations.

The SBTF is being established under the guidance of the Naval Project team operating from ADA in Bangalore.

Tejas photo: ADA

India Establishing SBTF For Naval Tejas | AVIATION WEEK


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## Tejas-MkII

> end-to-end tests in Bengaluru leading up to the aircraft&#8217;s July 6 rollout



July: N-LCA
August: LSP-5
September:LSP-7
December:LSP-8

Probably IMO LSP-6 with Kaveri or IRST or Mayawi or A*** 

Also, it shows they have the capability of producing 10-12 LCA a year easily.


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## jha

*Probably IMO LSP-6 with Kaveri or IRST or Mayawi or A*** *

Dont wish for too much...


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## flanker143

> Probably IMO LSP-6 with Kaveri or IRST or Mayawi or A***
> 
> Dont wish for too much...



is there any IRST under devleopment for lca ??

and also isn't mayawi already developed?????


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## Hasnain2009

gowthamraj said:


> for trolls, it would be pleasure, if you know which engine jf-17 uses.
> 
> Btw RADAR is India's only



Why bring JF-17 here? THis thread is for LCA.

As per my info!

*Indigenous LCA has:*


American Engine
Israeli avionics
French Avionics
Italian wings
Russian AAM
Israeli radar

But still indigenous


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## jha

flanker143 said:


> is there any IRST under devleopment for lca ??
> 
> and also isn't mayawi already developed?????



MAYAWI imo is still in testing phase...there was some buzz about IRST being under development but i am not sure..


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## sudhir007

After the steel cutting ceremony held by Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) last month in its yard ,GSL has started work on INS HANSA Naval base also , Cmde A. S. Baghel, Chief Staff Officer (Air), Goa Naval Area who was present in steel cutting ceremony did the honors , The GSL has been appointed the main co-coordinator for this project and will also be purchasing ABA Ship building steel , shore-based test facility (SBTF) will be a exact replica of IAC (Indigenous aircraft carrier)-1 which has been under construction at Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) , GSL is working in coordination with CSL and ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency), while civil work will be carried out by a pune based DRDO lab R&DE (E) .

SBTF will be used to simulate an aircraft carrier for full-fledged flight testing of ship-borne attack aircraft as well as for training pilots. development is mostly related to test Naval Tejas in development by ADA while Mig-29k and sea harrier pilots will also be doing practice on this runway when fully operational , SBTF will also be able to operate any aircraft which Indian navy may operate in future that includes Naval Pak-Fa .

shore-based test facility (SBTF) project will be first such facility in South Asia and the third in the world.Project will be completed by end of 2012 ,while first flight of Naval Tejas is expected by end of 2010 and roll out ceremony will be held in July , after initial testing Naval Tejas will be based in Goa for a long Haul .
*
MIG BUZZ AT INS HANSA*

Our local contributor from Goa has informed us that Mig-29k has been carrying out routine flight from the base , and are mostly seen in pairs , as per our informant Mig-29k mostly have sorties on Tuesday and Wednesday and its a great sight to watch them taking off from the surrounding road to the INS HANSA , Base is also home to Sea harriers and Kiran mk2 trainer jet and the best view could be from Bogmallo beach which is very close to the base and also is home to India&#8217;s only naval museum .

http://idrw.org/?p=2090


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## soaringphnx

Hasnain2009 said:


> Why bring JF-17 here? THis thread is for LCA.
> 
> As per my info!
> 
> *Indigenous LCA has:*
> 
> 
> American Engine
> Israeli avionics
> French Avionics
> Italian wings
> Russian AAM
> Israeli radar
> 
> But still indigenous



Atleast India is making an effort. Many things in the LCA are indigenous. All major systems of an aircraft like engine, radar, AAMs are currently being developed in India. Sadly, delays in some of these programs have forced India to seek foreign help. At any rate, there are more Indian systems in the LCA than there are pakistani systems in the JF-17/FC-1. Anyway, the JF-17 is only a joint venture. I don't see Pakistan coming with an indigenous project.


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## flanker143

> Why bring JF-17 here? THis thread is for LCA.
> 
> As per my info!
> 
> Indigenous LCA has:
> American Engine
> Israeli avionics
> French Avionics
> Italian wings
> Russian AAM
> Israeli radar
> 
> But still indigenous



better luk at ur own projects before insulting others

jf 17 thunder *jointly developed !!!!!!!!!* 

AIRFRAME---CHINESE
AVIONICS---CHINESE
RADAR--- CHINESE
ENGINE--- RUSSIAN
WEAPONS-- CHINESE

SO THE QUES OF DECADE ARISES--- WHAT'S PAK MADE IN IT ?????

I GUESS THE ANSWER IS *THE ALL NEW .. STATE OF THE ART...nth GENERATION ....SOPHISTICATED FIGHTER JET "NAME" ie THE ALMIGHTY JF 17 THUNDER*

IN DEVELOPMENT OF WHICH PAC OFFICIALS SPENT MANY HARDWORKING YEARS !!!!!

THIS IS INDEED THE BEST JOINT VENTURE I HAV EVER SEEN !!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nramesh1990

Good Reply

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------




flanker143 said:


> better luk at ur own projects before insulting others
> 
> jf 17 thunder *jointly developed !!!!!!!!!*
> 
> AIRFRAME---CHINESE
> AVIONICS---CHINESE
> RADAR--- CHINESE
> ENGINE--- RUSSIAN
> WEAPONS-- CHINESE
> 
> SO THE QUES OF DECADE ARISES--- WHAT'S PAK MADE IN IT ?????
> 
> I GUESS THE ANSWER IS *THE ALL NEW .. STATE OF THE ART...nth GENERATION ....SOPHISTICATED FIGHTER JET "NAME" ie THE ALMIGHTY JF 17 THUNDER*
> 
> IN DEVELOPMENT OF WHICH PAC OFFICIALS SPENT MANY HARDWORKING YEARS !!!!!
> 
> THIS IS INDEED THE BEST JOINT VENTURE I HAV EVER SEEN !!!!


cool......................


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## BJlaowai

flanker143 said:


> better luk at ur own projects before insulting others
> 
> jf 17 thunder *jointly developed !!!!!!!!!*
> 
> AIRFRAME---CHINESE
> AVIONICS---CHINESE
> RADAR--- CHINESE
> ENGINE--- RUSSIAN
> WEAPONS-- CHINESE
> 
> SO THE QUES OF DECADE ARISES--- WHAT'S PAK MADE IN IT ?????



You have missed some other points 
DESIGN --- CHINESE
TESTING --- CHINESE
MANUFACTURE --- CHINA
*PAINTING --- PAKISTAN*


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## thunder rules

old cheap tactics from indians.. in order to hide their embarrassing failure regarding tejas they alwaz involve thunder just to satisfy their ego..


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## anathema

BJlaowai said:


> You have missed some other points
> DESIGN --- CHINESE
> TESTING --- CHINESE
> MANUFACTURE --- CHINA
> *PAINTING --- PAKISTAN*



I disagree with this analysis....Manufacturing will be done in Pakistan. And ohh you forgot one more critical thing.... Pakistan has spent many years of hard work and too much brain farting in making a decision to incorporate French avionics in JF17 ...only to find that French has shown the finger.


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## unicorn148

thunder rules said:


> old cheap tactics from indians.. in order to hide their embarrassing failure regarding tejas they alwaz involve thunder just to satisfy their ego..



we are not hiding our failures its very difficult to build a aircraft for the first time we don't have experience of US or RUSSIA .the design and development were indigenous but some parts were foreign even if you take saab gripen many parts are from us and European


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## sudhir007

thunder rules said:


> old cheap tactics from indians.. in order to hide their embarrassing failure regarding tejas they alwaz involve thunder just to satisfy their ego..



did Paf invole in any testing phase in jf-17 i mean weapon, radar, night testing etc...... and plz come up with proper link. it make by china and test by Chinese parameter after all done by Chinese they given you.


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## flanker143

> old cheap tactics from indians.. in order to hide their embarrassing failure regarding tejas they alwaz involve thunder just to satisfy their ego..



Who said u tejas is a failure .......

it passed all tests thrown before it.... 

and will be getting IOC in no time !!! 

as for the jf 17 ahem ahem it hasn't given any(tests) !!!!!!!!



> did Paf invole in any testing phase in jf-17 i mean weapon, radar, night testing etc...... and plz come up with proper link. it make by china and test by Chinese parameter after all done by Chinese they given you.



thats bcoz they badly need it !!!!


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## Dash

Every plane on this planet, apart from US and Russia is a mixture of indegenous and foreign parts....

The basic logic that every plane maker has while making the plane depends on required technology and available resource. 
Eurofighter has American software, Gripen has American tech, France gained its knowledge from earlier experience with EU and US, everything is interlinked...

The funiest part is even US stealth design is based on a Russian research in 80s, when the lack of super computers prevented Russia to make a stealth plane and they abandoned the tech. Americans advanced on that tech to make F117...thats when the angled surface calculations came into picture.

Dont believe it??....google it.

If anyone calls LCA is not indegeneous then I will call Gripen, Eurofighter and all other plane are not also indegeneous.

and the point what Iam trying to give here is it doesnt matter how many parts are indegenous, because that doesnt actually mean the country is unable to make such tech. It just depends on time to bring that tech to surface and use it, *and by collaboration u just reduce that time*....

India has already fielded AESA radar for its AWACS program, she is just working on a miniaturized version and that will be flown soon...Same with every country, even China, Russia and US....everyone evolves..

I call that *wise* thinking.........

The bottom line today the worl knows that we have fielded a 4th gen plane, and in a year or two it will be a 4++ Gen plane, whether someone agrees or not....doesnt matter..

Its owners pride and neighbours envy....


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## flanker143

> If anyone calls LCA is not indegeneous then I will call Gripen, Eurofighter and all other plane are not also indegeneous.



EFT isn't indigenous ...its a jv


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## indian navy

well the main thing is we need lca at time in Indian sky 

we have to work with lca version

as Pakistan is getting f16 from usa and other planes from china and rest of world 

no doubt we have to think how we will counter both china and Pakistan air force the worst condition


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## jha

*Its owners pride and neighbours envy..*..

hahaha well said..BTW Shiv aroor has something to reveal today about AESA radar and AEWCS ...keep an eye on livefist..


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## flanker143

> hahaha well said..BTW Shiv aroor has something to reveal today about AESA radar and AEWS ...keep an eye on livefist..



u mean aesa and "aewc's" ??


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## flanker143

sorry to go off thread guys but is india developing "any" directed energy weapon ???

plzz tell.......


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## jha

yes dear..keep refreshing the page..


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> sorry to go off thread guys but is india developing "any" directed energy weapon ???
> 
> plzz tell.......



Developing ?

yes,
We are working on all kinds of cool stuff.

Do they have anything to show, as a weapons system ?

no.

------

Sure you can find the info on what we are working on.

A short range laser to detonate IED.
A directed energy system that will eventually be part of our BMD.

Those are the only two i know definitively ,

Shiv Aroor also claims , one of FMBT concepts involves a laser system to shoot down enemy missiles.
Which is frankly a pipe dream at this point of time 

This stuff is more or less a long time away.


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## marcos98

*LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed*













The images above, seen here for the first time, are from official material on the Indian AESA radar project for the LCA Tejas, shared with LiveFist. Indian state-owned radar developer Electronics R&D Establishment (LRDE) is in the process of identifying a development partner (DP) for an indigenous AESA radar for future tranches of the Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and is likely to make a final decision shortly. The radar has begun development in the country. According to official updated material made available to LiveFist, the fully solid-state X-band radar is being developed with the following modes:

Air-to-Air: Multi-target detection and tracking / Multi target ACM (Air-to-Air combat mode) / High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground: High Resolution mapping (SAR mode) / AGR  Air to Ground Ranging / RBM  Real Beam Mapping / DBS  Doppler Beam Sharpening / Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI) / Ground Moving Target Tracking (GMTT) / Terrain Avoidance (TA)

Air-to-Sea: Sea search and multi target tracking / Range Signature (RS) / Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)

As I've reported here before, the development partner that LRDE identifies will be responsible for "detailed design, development and realisation" of (a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna, (b) transmit/receive modules/groups, (c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface, (d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and (e) array calibration/BITE among other areas.


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## gowthamraj

Good but no mention of time frame. So like always we expect it on 202. .


----------



## jha

*EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed*







---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 AM ----------


----------



## jha

The images above, seen here for the first time, are from official material on the Indian AESA radar project for the LCA Tejas, shared with LiveFist. Indian state-owned radar developer Electronics R&D Establishment (LRDE) is in the process of identifying a development partner (DP) for an indigenous AESA radar for future tranches of the Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and is likely to make a final decision shortly. The radar has begun development in the country. According to official updated material made available to LiveFist, the fully solid-state X-band radar is being developed with the following modes:

Air-to-Air: Multi-target detection and tracking / Multi target ACM (Air-to-Air combat mode) / High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground: High Resolution mapping (SAR mode) / AGR &#8211; Air to Ground Ranging / RBM &#8211; Real Beam Mapping / DBS &#8211; Doppler Beam Sharpening / Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI) / Ground Moving Target Tracking (GMTT) / Terrain Avoidance (TA)

Air-to-Sea: Sea search and multi target tracking / Range Signature (RS) / Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)

As I've reported here before, the development partner that LRDE identifies will be responsible for "detailed design, development and realisation" of (a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna, (b) transmit/receive modules/groups, (c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface, (d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and (e) array calibration/BITE among other areas.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed


----------



## jha

Already posted in LCA thread...mods please merge ..


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## anathema

^^ So what exactly is new in this information ? I belive most of it is known in the public domain !


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## jha

yet again a hype created by SHIV AROOR..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## k7x

when ever some one says LCA is a failure don't jump into arguments. Just think about this joke. 

In One Tamil flims two comedians used to argue who is better. Senthil and Gowdamani. 

Senthil used to say I have passed 8th standard so i am better and Gowdamani has failed 10th standard so he is not better than him. And unfortunately we are coming across few people now and then in life. 

Moral of the story, to succeed or not to succeed depends on once goal . it has nothing to do with othes success ( coz their goal might be differnt). 

LCAs goal is not just to replace Mig 21. IAF wants a platform that it can depend on for another 30 years. if we wanted to replace an upgraded 2nd gen bomber like others, LCA is a grand success as it has crossed that state long long long agao when lightning pod and dummy bombs were dropped.


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## anathema

k7x said:


> LCA is a grand success as it has crossed that state long long long agao when *lightning pod and dummy bombs were dropped*.



Lol ...Litening pod was not dropped , bombs were dropped...IAF test pilot would have been sacked if he would have droped the POD knowingly


----------



## soaringphnx

flanker143 said:


> sorry to go off thread guys but is india developing "any" directed energy weapon ???
> 
> plzz tell.......



Ever heard of the KALI program??

The KALI (Kilo Ampere Linear Injector) is a linear electron accelerator being developed in India, by the Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) and the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC).

The KALI is not a laser weapon as commonly believed. It emits powerful pulses of electrons (Relativistic Electron Beams- REB). Other components in the machine down the line convert the electron energy into EM Radiation, which can be adjusted to x-ray (as Flash X-Rays) or microwave (High Power Microwave) frequencies.

This has fueled hopes that the KALI could, one day be used in a High-Power Microwave gun, which could destroy incoming missiles and aircraft through soft-kill (destroying the electronic circuitry on the missile). However, weaponising such a system has many obstacles to overcome.

*As a Weapon*

The KALI's potential for a military role as a beam weapon has made it, in the eyes of the people, "India's Star Wars". However, weaponisation of the KALI will take some time. The system is still under development, and efforts are being made to make it more compact, as well as improve its recharge time, which, at the present, makes it only a single use system.

There are also issues of creating a complete system, which would require development of many more components. There have also been reports of placing the weaponized KALI in an Il-76 aircraft as an airborne defence system. There is also speculation of using the KALI as an Anti-satellite weapon and as a space-based weapon system, although it is unlikely that they would be implemented, given India's stance on those issues.

If weaponized, it is quite likely that KALI would be integrated into India's Ballistic Missile Defense program.

Original article: KALI (laser) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Arjun MBT

Good that India is Making an AESA radar for LCA, As this is LCA AESA radar program It should be ready along with LCA Mk2..... I hope it does


----------



## flanker143

> Ever heard of the KALI program??
> 
> The KALI (Kilo Ampere Linear Injector) is a linear electron accelerator being developed in India, by the Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) and the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC).
> 
> The KALI is not a laser weapon as commonly believed. It emits powerful pulses of electrons (Relativistic Electron Beams- REB). Other components in the machine down the line convert the electron energy into EM Radiation, which can be adjusted to x-ray (as Flash X-Rays) or microwave (High Power Microwave) frequencies.
> 
> This has fueled hopes that the KALI could, one day be used in a High-Power Microwave gun, which could destroy incoming missiles and aircraft through soft-kill (destroying the electronic circuitry on the missile). However, weaponising such a system has many obstacles to overcome.
> 
> As a Weapon
> 
> The KALI's potential for a military role as a beam weapon has made it, in the eyes of the people, "India's Star Wars". However, weaponisation of the KALI will take some time. The system is still under development, and efforts are being made to make it more compact, as well as improve its recharge time, which, at the present, makes it only a single use system.
> 
> There are also issues of creating a complete system, which would require development of many more components. There have also been reports of placing the weaponized KALI in an Il-76 aircraft as an airborne defence system. There is also speculation of using the KALI as an Anti-satellite weapon and as a space-based weapon system, although it is unlikely that they would be implemented, given India's stance on those issues.
> 
> If weaponized, it is quite likely that KALI would be integrated into India's Ballistic Missile Defense program.



i have already read about it .... and the problem is it was never made for defense applications !!! so its not a weapon !!


----------



## flanker143

> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed
> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 908x670.
> 
> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 761x574.
> 
> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 766x574.
> 
> The images above, seen here for the first time, are from official material on the Indian AESA radar project for the LCA Tejas, shared with LiveFist. Indian state-owned radar developer Electronics R&D Establishment (LRDE) is in the process of identifying a development partner (DP) for an indigenous AESA radar for future tranches of the Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and is likely to make a final decision shortly. The radar has begun development in the country. According to official updated material made available to LiveFist, the fully solid-state X-band radar is being developed with the following modes:
> 
> Air-to-Air: Multi-target detection and tracking / Multi target ACM (Air-to-Air combat mode) / High resolution raid assessment
> 
> Air-to-Ground: High Resolution mapping (SAR mode) / AGR &#8211; Air to Ground Ranging / RBM &#8211; Real Beam Mapping / DBS &#8211; Doppler Beam Sharpening / Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI) / Ground Moving Target Tracking (GMTT) / Terrain Avoidance (TA)
> 
> Air-to-Sea: Sea search and multi target tracking / Range Signature (RS) / Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)
> 
> As I've reported here before, the development partner that LRDE identifies will be responsible for "detailed design, development and realisation" of (a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna, (b) transmit/receive modules/groups, (c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface, (d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and (e) array calibration/BITE among other areas.



i seriously doubt that aesa radar will be ready with tejas mk2 bcoz they took so long to make mechanically steered one !!

and also jv takes alot of time bcoz ...as 1st they will just select the partner... and there will be as series of talks and meeting ..... and after a whole lot of time the will begin the development !!!!


----------



## Arjun MBT

flanker143 said:


> i seriously doubt that aesa radar will be ready with tejas mk2 bcoz they took so long to make mechanically steered one !!
> 
> and also jv takes alot of time bcoz ...as 1st they will just select the partner... and there will be as series of talks and meeting ..... and after a whole lot of time the will begin the development !!!!



Buddy, We are Not Working On from Scratch, We just have to Study and Work On the AESA radar which LRDE made for AEW&CS , So Miniaturizing It needs Assistance for Sure


----------



## flanker143

> Buddy, We are Not Working On from Scratch, We just have to Study and Work On the AESA radar which LRDE made for AEW&CS , So Miniaturizing It needs Assistance for Sure



the aesa radar which the LRDE made , luks almost as big as lca itself ... miniaturizing would be hell of a job !!!

and will surely take a lot of time

plz dont mind me ... i'm not a lca criticizer....


----------



## Arjun MBT

flanker143 said:


> the aesa radar which the LRDE made , luks almost as big as lca itself ... miniaturizing would be hell of a job !!!
> 
> and will surely take a lot of time
> 
> plz dont mind me ... i'm not a lca criticizer....



Its ok Dude, I know Miniaturizing the AESA will take lot of a time but Not more than 2 -3 Years buddy, Come on we are Not laying a Platform but Building on an Existing one


----------



## soaringphnx

flanker143 said:


> i have already read about it .... and the problem is it was never made for defense applications !!! so its not a weapon !!



It is clearly stated in my post that it is not a weapon. But it has the potential to be developed into a weapon. Maybe it is already being developed as a secret project. Read the part under "As A Weapon".


----------



## flanker143

> It is clearly stated in my post that it is not a weapon. But it has the potential to be developed into a weapon. Maybe it is already being developed as a secret project. Read the part under "As A Weapon".



i never said u wrote any thing wrong buddy .... i as was just saying that its not a weapon .. at least not in its current state .....


----------



## Choppers

*Ownership Feeling Among Tejas Users Has Increased, Says ADA Chief*​
Jun 25, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bangalore



Tejas, Indias light combat aircraft (LCA), is finally giving goose bumps to thousands of engineers, designers, scientists and technocrats. The limited series production (LSP) platforms are hitting the sky like nobodys business. Theres excitement in the air. Theres hope. And theres a goal thats just within their reach. Amidst all the news of the initial operational clearance (IOC) within sight and the near-services version configuration (LSP-4) flying recently, one man is calm and composed, for he knows the end of one journey is just the beginning of another.

In a one-on-one with Aviation Weeks Senior Aerospace and Defense Correspondent (India) Anantha Krishnan M., as part of the interview series India Thought Leaders (ITL), Program Director (Combat Aircraft) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director P.S. Subramanyam (known among close peers as P.S.), says the technological knowledge gained through the Tejas program is sure to make India a force to be reckoned with in all future military plane-making missions.

*A.W.: What will be the power plant for Tejas Mark-II? Is it GE-414 or EJ-200?*

P.S.: You are in an aggressive mode with the first question itself! OK, we are working toward having the Tejas Mk-II rollout by September 2013 and the Indian Air Force (IAF) would probably want to form five squadrons and the program will then go on to 8-10 years. Apart from structural and certain electronics equipment upgradation, the main change will be the power plant. Both engines (GE-414 and EJ-200) qualify our requirements and now theres a process to be followed. [The] technical evaluation committee has seen it. One engine will be chosen. Both engines have 10%-20% faster acceleration than the current power plant (GE -404). It is not about the Mach number in operations that matter, but how fast you reach the target. By December 2014 Tejas Mk-II with the new engine will fly.

*A.W.: What are the value additions on offer for the Indian Air Force (IAF) when Tejas Mark-II comes out?*

P.S.: We are adopting a very holistic approach. Minor alterations are required on the platform due to the new engine and we hope to strike a balance. While the new platforms (Mk-I) will be integrated as per the series production plans, parallel work on the manufacturing of ground support equipment would begin. We shall maintain the IAF standards of ground support (go-no-go). We will evolve entire ground support tools, training facilities, publications for Mk-I by the end of this year. To start with, we will have the IAF and HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) technicians trained in Bangalore. By 2012, when the first squadron shifts to Sulur, IAF technicians will be ready to tackle things. I have been to Sulur and have given some suggestions for runway extension.

*A.W.: What are the numbers we are looking at?*

P.S.: Once we choose the new engine and after it gets certified by the agencies, we would initially want eight engines for IAF and the Navy. A total of 100 engines is what is currently envisaged.

*A.W.: No other program has received so much media bashing in addition to genuine concerns from your users. What was the motivational thread you adopted during these difficult times?*

P.S.: I dont want to comment on the media, though at times we did think of putting [in] a firefighting plan to counter one-sided remarks in the press. Later, we decided against it, knowing that it would divert our focus from the main goal. Yes, we had difficulties as we were attempting to do something that has never been done in this country. Yes, we slipped because we had to face many challenges from different quarters while mastering technologies. But dont forget the fact that my team took the blow but finally delivered. Now, to the users. We understand their concerns and even they, too, are aware of our constraints. The project has definitely received a huge push after a project management team from IAF started functioning from ADA. They are the pacemakers for the program now and involved in every bit. This has also increased the ownership feeling among the users.

*A.W.: So far LSP-4 has flown and what is the road ahead?*

P.S.: The next one in line is LSP-5 and it will fly in the first week of August this year with slight modifications to the cockpit. We are confident of flying LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving way for the initial operational clearance (IOC). We are making LSP-6 a complete experimental platform. LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be flown by user pilots for user evaluation and feedback. HAL will begin the series production by the first quarter of 2011.

*A.W.: Can you elaborate on the cockpit modification?*

P.S.: It will be [a] rearranged and modified cockpit to increase the comfort levels of the pilot. The layout changes will make the glass cockpit more pilot-friendly and even enhance its night-flying capabilities. The pilots are happy as they are also doubling up as designers. Our efforts are to bring down the workload of pilots during the mission. All the 12 pilots who were part of the Tejas program from the beginning have contributed their bit to the cockpit modifications. Several design elements you see today are based on the ideas given by the pilots. The pilot is the man in action and our role is to ensure that we give him everything he needs while flying. The new cockpit will be a pilots delight.

*A.W.: Finally, how is the relationship with your principle partner HAL?*

P.S.: All is well. I dont know anything more or less than what you know or dont.

(This interview primarily focused on Tejas Mk-1 and Mk-11 versions and other developmental issues related to the program only. Aviation Week at a later stage will provide more extensive reports on Tejas technologies, composites, weapons and the Tejas Navy version.)

India Thought Leaders: Ownership Feeling Among Tejas Users Has Increased, Says ADA Chief | AVIATION WEEK

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## CONNAN

Indian Navy fastens its seatbelt for Light Combat Aircraft Tejas - dnaindia.com

Bangalore: India is preparing to unveil its first naval variant of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas on July 6 15 years after the Indian Air Force (IAF) version of LCAs technology demonstrator (TD-1) was first rolled out in 1995

The naval prototype-1 (NP-1) is currently undergoing a series of checks inside the high-security hangar of Bangalore-based Aircraft Research and Development Centre (ARDC).It will be rolled out in the presence of Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Nirmal Verma, sources told DNA on Tuesday.

The two-seater naval variant for aircraft carrier operations, NP-1 will be rolled out on July 6 in Bangalore, sources said.
Both Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of Tejas variants, and HAL, its principal partner and main manufacturer, were tight-lipped about the roll-out.

An aircrafts roll-out means that it is structurally complete with equipment installed, and plumbing and wiring completed.
It will be on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power. A roll-out is also a precursor to the next phase of ground-based system integration testing, engine ground run, taxi trials and the first flight. Kept under wraps, the Tejas NP-1 will have almost the same system architecture as the Tejas IAF trainer version.

Externally it might look the same like the Tejas trainer, but internally it is a different kettle of fish. We are confident that ADA-HAL will make NP-1 (trainer) ready for the first flight by the end of this year, and NP-2 (fighter) next year, sources said.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned development of LCA for the Navy in April 2003, and in December 2009, the CCS gave its go-ahead for a Mark-II version with a new engine.

NP-1 will fly with a GE-404 engine. NP-1s 40% of the funding is from the Indian Navy while 60% is from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The naval variant of Tejas will replace the aging Sea Harrier fleet and the Indian Navy is said to have shown an initial commitment for 50 Tejas aircraft after the platform proves its mettle.

Both NP-I & NP-2 are tailor-made to operate from an aircraft carrier with the concept of ski-jump take-off and arrested recovery (STOBAR).

The aircraft will get airborne within 20 metres over the ski-jump on the ship as against a land-based take-off run of about 800 metres. Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging a ship-based wire.

The aircraft then stops within 90 metres of touchdown  about
one-tenth the land-based stopping distance.

This makes the Tejas naval programme extremely challenging and we are happy with what the Naval Project Team (NPT) based out of Bangalore has done so far, sources added.

A 14-member Naval Project Team headed by Commodore (Retd) CD Balaji, programme director, LCA Navy, is monitoring the projects progress from ADA in close association with ARDC.
Balaji was not available for any comment.


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## flanker143

> P.S.: The next one in line is LSP-5 and it will fly in the first week of August this year with slight modifications to the cockpit. We are confident of flying LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving way for the initial operational clearance (IOC). We are making LSP-6 a complete experimental platform. LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be flown by user pilots for user evaluation and feedback. HAL will begin the series production by the first quarter of 2011.



lsp 6 would be an experimental jet .. but what kind of new equipment will it be testing ??? @ anyone ??




> the Indian Air Force (IAF) would probably want to form five squadrons and the program will then go on to 8-10 years



does this mean that we will have a prodution rate of only 10a/c per year ?????????!!!!!! noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!


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## gogbot

> A.W.: No other program has received so much media bashing in addition to genuine concerns from your users. What was the motivational thread you adopted during these difficult times?
> 
> P.S.: I don&#8217;t want to comment on the media, though at times we did think of putting [in] a firefighting plan to counter one-sided remarks in the press. Later, we decided against it, knowing that it would divert our focus from the main goal. Yes, we had difficulties as we were attempting to do something that has never been done in this country. Yes, we slipped because we had to face many challenges from different quarters while mastering technologies. But don&#8217;t forget the fact that my team took the blow but finally delivered. Now, to the users. We understand their concerns and even they, too, are aware of our constraints. *The project has definitely received a huge push after a project management team from IAF started functioning from ADA. They are the pacemakers for the program now and involved in every bit. This has also increased the ownership feeling among the users.*



Very good policy by IAF , hope they maintain it for all Development projects.

We already know they are involved in the development of the MCA , showing very positive signs.

IA should also take such an approach


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## Chaluboy

This experimental config for the LCA is interesting, haven't seen any details on this...


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## sudhir007

Chaluboy said:


> This experimental config for the LCA is interesting, haven't seen any details on this...


i think it will fit kaveri engine


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## flanker143

> i think it will fit kaveri engine



lets hope it happens .... 

anywaz whatever happens it will surely be aimed at improving tejas !!!

so it will always be a gud news for us !!


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## jha

flanker143 said:


> i seriously doubt that aesa radar will be ready with tejas mk2 bcoz they took so long to make mechanically steered one !!
> 
> and also jv takes alot of time bcoz ...as 1st they will just select the partner... and there will be as series of talks and meeting ..... and after a whole lot of time the will begin the development !!!!



MK-2 will definitely have AESA radar..if not indian then Israeli Elta-2052...


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## flanker143

> MK-2 will definitely have AESA radar..if not indian then Israeli Elta-2052...



i never said mk2 won't have an aesa radar mate.... i just fear that mk2 might be delayed by a jv aesa .......... sorry to say but... my fear is justified


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## anathema

jha said:


> MK-2 will definitely have AESA radar..if not indian then Israeli Elta-2052...



There are no official statements or records which state that MK2 will have an AESA radar. PS (ADA chief) recently gave an interview to Tarmak blog where he briefly mentioned about MK2 upgrades which included engine, bigger wing , etc..
So lets wait and watch ....I sure hope that LCA does get AESA...


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## Kinetic

anathema said:


> There are no official statements or records which state that MK2 will have an AESA radar. PS (ADA chief) recently gave an interview to Tarmak blog where he briefly mentioned about MK2 upgrades which included engine, bigger wing , etc..
> So lets wait and watch ....I sure hope that LCA does get AESA...



Officially AESA is a part of Tejas mk-2 development becasue IAF wants it as its part of mk-2 requirements. AESA development for Tejas is going on full speed. It will be integrated with the fighter in 2014. 

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed



jha said:


> MK-2 will definitely have AESA radar..if not indian then Israeli Elta-2052...



It will be Indian.


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## Kinetic

Ski-jump take-off for light combat aircraft Tejas
Anantha Krishnan M / DNA
Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:30 IST


Bangalore: The Naval Air Station in Goa is quietly readying a first-of-its-kind facility in India for flight tests on the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas naval variant.


The shore-based test facility (SBTF), when fully-operational, will be the third such test facility in the world after the US and Ukrainian navies. *After the initial flight tests, we will shift all action to SBTF.*

*The ramp for the take-off area will be ready by the last quarter of 2011 and the landing area in 2012. A full-fledged telemetry unit is also coming up in Goa,* sources in the Indian Navy told DNA.

*The sources said the SBTF simulates an aircraft carrier with ski-jump take-off and arrested recovery landing wherein the incoming aircraft is brought to a standstill after touchdown when a hook attached to its underbelly engages a taut arrester wire placed across the landing path.*

Its recreating a ship on the shore. The one thats coming up in Goa is based on the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) thats being built at Cochin Shipyard. The SBTF is constructed with the same measurements of IAC, sources said. *All the specialised equipment for the facility is being supplied by the Russians, while the steel structure is being made by Goa Shipyard and civil engineering work by R&D Establishment (Engineers) in Pune.*


Its a pat for Tejas

Insiders said the SBTF is a huge pat for the Tejas programme as the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had already envisioned the funding for this facility. In addition, a new landing gear drop test facility has been created at HAL to handle testing of larger naval gear loads. *A hardware-in-loop simulation for flight control system testing called Iron-bird has also been set up and is in operation supporting the Tejas Navy programme.*

DNA has learnt that all initial flight tests leading to the carrier-suitability test (CST) will be done at HAL airport in Bangalore.
The SBTF is coming up even as the Aeronautical Development Agency and Aircraft Research and Development Centre of HAL are undertaking the structural integration and last-minute end-to-end tests on Tejas naval variant (NP-1) for the historic July 6 roll-out in Bangalore.

Ski-jump take-off for light combat aircraft Tejas - dnaindia.com

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## SpArK

*Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine​*
Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine


IAF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing joint development.

Indias Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

*A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA  which oversees the Tejas programme  is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.*
The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement  of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine  should go ahead.

The IAFs second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any joint development.

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecmas new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAFs accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in joint development. Since Indias futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA)  the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine  has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.

Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters) that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft.

But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200.

According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.


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## Sri

If this is actually the case then IAF has every right to show displeasure. I think what is needed now is MOD assuring IAF that kaveri will never be used in Tejas prog( As kaveri has already missed the bus) . Kaveri can find other fighters like MCA (If pg is funded)


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## soaringphnx

*Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon​​​*​
The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is set to start commercial negotiations with aircraft engine makers Eurojet Turbo GmbH and General Electric Aviation for 99 aircraft engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

The two engine manufacturers had been shortlisted after expressions of interest for an alternate engine for the LCA were issued last year. Eurojet, a European consortium, is offering its EJ200 engine, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter plane while the American firm has put in bids for its GE F414 engine used in the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Superhornet. The new engine will power the Mark II variant of the Tejas, which currently runs on F-404 engines made by GE.

&#8220;Soon, we should be starting commercial negotiations, probably in a couple of weeks,&#8221; said PS Subramanyam, director, ADA. &#8220;The technical evaluation is over. I think both of them (companies) are good candidates.&#8221; The Tejas aircraft ,with its current engine and configuration, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) from March next year with state-run military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd supplying 20 planes initially. The proposal for a second batch of 20 planes has been cleared by the defence ministry and negotiations are on, Subramanyam said.

The IAF has indicated the need for five squadrons of the Mark-II, which will feature the alternate, more powerful engine and upgraded electronics. &#8220;Wherever there is obsolescence setting in, in terms of advancement of electronics, we are going for state-of-the-art electronics in the Mark-II,&#8221; said Subramanyam. Even as the process of procurement of engines is on, ADA has begun two tracks of design based on the shortlisted engines so as to not lose time, he added. Meanwhile, a proposal by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop the indigenous Kaveri engine with French engine house Snecma, is under consideration.

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

&#8220;Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),&#8221; he said. &#8220;There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,&#8221; he added.

Original article: Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon

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## soaringphnx

*Eurojet offers dual-use engine for LCA​*
Eager to join hands with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its associates in the development of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas-Mark II,' the Eurojet consortium is offering its engine that could be tweaked to work on its naval version.

We are offering two variants of the EJ200, bidding for the India's LCA Mark-II which can be altered through a software change to suit the requirements for the naval version of the LCA, Eurojet Vice-President Sales Paul Hermann told a group of journalists here.

The Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA under the overall supervision of the DRDO, had sought a proposal from the EJ200 and the American GE414 engine. The order will be initially for 99 engines with 10 of these in ready-to-use condition. There is an option for additional 49 engines order.

Eurojet Chief Engineer Wolfgang Sterr said there were over 1,500 EJ200 engines for the 700-plus Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft under contract to six nations. He said the engine was suitable for the LCA and could be used for the naval variant that the ADA was working on.

The Eurofighter is in the race for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft that the IAF is acquiring.

The naval version requirement of greater thrust for take-off from an aircraft carrier can be met without altering the hardware of the engine. With a switch of software the EJ200 can be used for the naval variant and vice-versa.

While the company preferred not to make any direct comment on the price tag, EJ Sales Director Adrian Johnson, said it would be competitive in many aspects through low life cycle costs, transfer of technology and offering partnership to India for future development and enhancement of the engine and its systems.

The officials said, If the Eurojet makes the grade, the organisation could also share its expertise in India's quest to develop indigenous Kaveri engine. We have experienced the challenge India is facing, At Rolls-Royce, it took us 100 years to get where we are,Mr. Johnson said.

The Eurojet consortium includes Rolls-Royce (England), MTU (German), ITP (Spain) and Avio (Italy).

Original article: http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article453058.ece

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## CONNAN

but did we accept the offer is the big ?


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1394 Test Flights successfully. (17-June-10). 
LCA has completed 1394 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-151,PV3-221,LSP1-59,LSP2-154,PV5-15,*LSP3-12*,*LSP4-2*)

(31-May-10)Tejas-LCA


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## flanker143

is any Irst under development for tejas ??


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## maithil

Its not under development..its already developed..


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## sancho

maithil said:


> Its not under development..its already developed..



Can you provide a source?


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## Hulk

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1394 Test Flights successfully. (17-June-10).
> LCA has completed 1394 Test Flights successfully
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-151,PV3-221,LSP1-59,LSP2-154,PV5-15,*LSP3-12*,*LSP4-2*)
> 
> (31-May-10)Tejas-LCA



What are we going to do with TD and PD ones are we going to change them to LSP's?


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## soaringphnx

*Naval LCA to roll out on July 6*​
The first Naval Light Combat Aircraft is scheduled to roll out from HAL ARDC design hangar here on July 6.

The LCA (Navy) is the first indigenous effort to build a complete air element for the Indian Navy. The aircraft is fitted with the GE-F-404-IN20 engine and is specifically designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing, with high landing loads compared to its Air Force counterpart. By initiating this venture and fostering it, the country has shown great confidence in the competence of its scientists and engineers, an official release here said. Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma will be the chief guest at the function that is expected to be attended by senior officials of PSUs, private industries and institutions which have supported the programme during its development phase.

*Checking phase*

The event &#8216;roll-out' is a significant milestone when the aircraft is brought out of the building hangar (where the aircraft is actually assembled part by part), declaring that it is ready to undergo the phase of systems integration tests leading to ground runs, taxi trials and flights. &#8220;The main aim of LCA (Navy) NP1 and its Fighter Counterpart (NP2) is to prove itself with its technologies incorporated as a formidable platform, and to be a suitable replacement to the aging fleet of Sea Harriers at a later date in a derivative MK2 configuration, with a higher thrust engine and optimised mass.

This aircraft, with considerable technology and punch for years to come, is being designed to operate from the future indigenous aircraft carriers the Navy plans to acquire,&#8221; the release added

The formal sanction by the Government for the programme was accorded in 2003. The first stage of development includes design and fabrication of one trainer and one fighter, NP1 and NP2 respectively, along with a Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) at Goa, to simulate carrier take off and arrested landing. One of its kind

The LCA (Navy) is the only carrier borne aircraft in the light category, and there are no other aircraft worldwide, the release said. The aircraft will be operating with a wide variety of operational role equipment, such as the BVR missile, anti-ship missiles, conventional bombs, air defence guns, CCM's and drop tanks.

Original Article: http://www.hindu.com/2010/06/25/stories/2010062554480900.htm


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## maithil

A Humble questions to all Senior members-- will MK-II have AESA or, DRDO developed MMR radar..because in some other forum a very senior member is saying AESA will only come in MK-III , while other is saying it will be AESA on MK-II.


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## flanker143

> A Humble questions to all Senior members-- will MK-II have AESA or, DRDO developed MMR radar..because in some other forum a very senior member is saying AESA will only come in MK-III , while other is saying it will be AESA on MK-II.



sry i'm not a senior member member but still answering ur ques ........

tejas mk2 will be carrying an aesa radar that will be a jv between drdo and a international company(which has not been chosen yet) that has exp in making aesa radar..... 

and also currently there *no tejas mk3 in sight* !!!



> will MK-II have AESA or, DRDO developed MMR



so actually it will be a mix of both ie drdo (jv) developed aesa.....

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## Arjun MBT

maithil said:


> A Humble questions to all Senior members-- will MK-II have AESA or, DRDO developed MMR radar..because in some other forum a very senior member is saying AESA will only come in MK-III , while other is saying it will be AESA on MK-II.



LRDE is working On Miniaturization of AESA radar for LCA tejas, as per the Latest News on LCA radars, There is an Active AESA radar program going on for the LCA mk2....

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## sameersay20007

please tell me the difference in *pesa* radar and *aesa *radar


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## flanker143

> please tell me the difference in pesa radar and aesa radar



Google it buddy , u will get better and detailed info........ also this is a lca thread !!!

plz don mind it .....


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## sancho

Arjun MBT said:


> LRDE is working On Miniaturization of AESA radar for LCA tejas, as per the Latest News on LCA radars, There is an Active AESA radar program going on for the LCA mk2....



There is, but reports mentioned, that IAF rejected it, because it is not good enough. That's actually not even surprising if we keep in mind how MMR, or DRDO AWACS development are going on. So teaming up with an experienced partner is the right decision, but it came way too late!



sameersay20007 said:


> please tell me the difference in *pesa* radar and *aesa *radar



This should help too:

Active Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



flanker143 said:


> Google it buddy , u will get better and detailed info........ also this is a lca thread !!!
> 
> plz don mind it .....



Be fair mate, he is new and you asked a lot of questions in different threads too right?


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## maithil

*PESA radars the radar array is moved mechanically to different directions. On AESA radars instead, the radar beam is able to be directed to different directions, *

That is mechanically scanned array radar not electronically scanned array radar..

PESA and AESA are electronically scanned array radars..The difference between them is that 

THERE IS ONLY ONE RADIO FREQUENCY SOURCE in PESA which sends energy into phase shift modules which then sends these to different antenna elements..
while in AESA eachelement has its own RF source...


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## sancho

maithil said:


> *PESA radars the radar array is moved mechanically to different directions. On AESA radars instead, the radar beam is able to be directed to different directions, *
> 
> That is mechanically scanned array radar not electronically scanned array radar..
> 
> PESA and AESA are electronically scanned array radars..The difference between them is that



PESA - *P*assive* E*lectronically *S*canned *A*rray

AESA - *A*ctive *E*lectronically *S*canned *A*rray


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## maithil

^^ The bold part is what you wrote...

No part moves in PESA and AESA RADARs..


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## saurabh

sancho said:


> In short, on* PESA radars the radar array is moved mechanically* to different directions. On AESA radars instead, the radar beam is able to be directed to different directions, which offers advantages in maintenance for example, because of less moving parts.
> 
> This should help too:
> 
> Active Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Wrong, there is no mechanical movement in PESA. Phased Array, as the name shows, is an array of element which introduce phase shifts.

A single source emits radio waves. This waves are transmitted through an array of phase shifting elements. This phase shifting (electronically controlled) is done in such a way that waves constructively interfere in only one direction and destructively in other directions. Thus, radar steering is achieved in a faster way than mechanical steering.
AESA is one step ahead, all the phase shifting elements are replaced with radio wave sources. Phase shifting is done by controlling the timing of emission from each source.

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## flanker143

> Be fair mate, he is new and you asked a lot of questions in different threads too right?



i wasn't harsh at all !! all i said is that this is not the right thread ... 

and even after that i said


> plz don mind it .....



i don hav a have a habit if asking off thread ques...sum may be exception....

sry no offends but my advice to him to google was much better than what u told him !!!


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## maithil

^^ yes and thats why power consumption is much lesser than PESA radar..

each element of an AESA radar can be adjusted wrt when and how and it is transmitting. So you have 1500+ elements that can transmit at different frequencies and power levels, pulse forms, PRF, each element individually operating below the threshold of the opponent's RWR set and jumping around in an unpredictable fashion. The computer then combines these returns for the overall target picture. So the opponents RWR may only see 3 or 4 watts of power, and only for a very brief instant, compared to the kilowatts that the passive array is cranking out on a fixed frequency. The AESA is not putting out enough energy for passive detection. The oponent may think there's something out there, but he will not know what or where, if it's a false alarm


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## sancho

maithil said:


> ^^ The bold part is what you wrote...
> 
> No part moves in PESA and AESA RADARs..



My fault, confused the older radars again!



flanker143 said:


> i wasn't harsh at all !! all i said is that this is not the right thread ...
> 
> and even after that i said
> 
> i don hav a have a habit if asking off thread ques...sum may be exception....
> 
> sry no offends but my advice to him to google was much better than what u told him !!!



Of course, but it is normal that new members post several questions, instead of using the search, or google it. So at least posting a link, where he can find infos would be more helpful don't you think?


----------



## flanker143

> Of course, but it is normal that new members post several questions, instead of using the search, or google it. So at least posting a link, where he can find infos would be more helpful don't you think?



i'll do that from next time ...  

sry if i hurt u


----------



## praveen007

maithil said:


> ^^ The bold part is what you wrote...
> 
> No part moves in PESA and AESA RADARs..



*PESA RADAR*

A passive electronically scanned array (PESA), contrary to its active counterpart AESA, is a phased array which has a central radiofrequency source (such as a magnetron, a klystron or a travelling wave tube), sending energy into (usually digitally-controlled) phase shift modules, which then send energy into the various emitting elements in the front of the antenna. AESA devices, in contrast, have each of their elements contain its own radiofrequency source. A PESA radar is therefore simpler to construct than an AESA.

Most phased array radars in the world are PESA. Microwave Landing System uses PESA transmit-only arrays.
In wave theory, a phased array is a group of antennas in which the relative phases of the respective signals feeding the antennas are varied in such a way that the effective radiation pattern of the array is reinforced in a desired direction and suppressed in undesired directions.[1] Phased array transmission was originally developed in 1905 by Nobel Laureate Karl Ferdinand Braun who demonstrated enhanced transmission of radio waves in one direction.[2] During World War II, Nobel Laureate Luis Alvarez used phased array transmission in a rapidly-steerable radar system for "ground-controlled approach", a system to aid in the landing of airplanes in England. At the same time GEMA in Germany built the PESA Mammut 1.[3] It was later adapted for radio astronomy leading to Nobel Prizes for Physics for Antony Hewish and Martin Ryle after several large phased arrays were developed at the University of Cambridge. The design is also used in radar, and is generalized in interferometric radio antennas. DARPA researchers recently announced a 16 element phased array integrated with all necessary circuits to send at 30&#8211;50 GHz on a single silicon chip for military purposes

Phased array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia












*Active Electronically Scanned Array*

An Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), also known as active phased array radar is a type of phased array radar whose transmitter and receiver functions are composed of numerous small solid-state transmit/receive modules (TRMs). AESAs aim their "beam" by broadcasting a number of different frequencies of coherent radio energy that interfere constructively at certain angles in front of the antenna. They improve on the older passive electronically scanned radars by spreading their broadcasts out across a band of frequencies, which makes it very difficult to detect over background noise. AESAs allow ships and aircraft to broadcast powerful radar signals while still remaining stealthy.
.............................

The primary advantage of a AESA over a PESA is that the different modules can operate on different frequencies. Unlike the PESA, where the signal was generated at single frequencies by a small number of transmitters, in the AESA each module broadcasts its own independent signal. This allows the AESA to produce numerous "sub-beams" and actively "paint" a much larger number of targets. Additionally, the solid-state transmitters are able to broadcast effectively at a much wider range of frequencies, giving AESAs the ability to change their operating frequency with every pulse sent out. AESAs can also produce beams that consist of many different frequencies at once, using post-processing of the combined signal from a number of TRMs to re-create a display as if there was a single powerful beam being sent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_array


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## praveen007

some lovely pics of *LCA* enjoy

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## jha

Nice pics praveen ...keep it up..


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## praveen007

lca colourfull
Pakistan Defence Forum

refuliing in air

Indian-Military.org:indian air force


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## praveen007

lca trainer under construction





short stoping with help of perachut





take off at leh


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## Arjun MBT

LCA Trainer Under construction






LCA Tejas at its best


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## flanker143

> refuliing in air
> 
> Indian-Military.org:indian air force



i think its a mirage2k ....... not lca....


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## Arjun MBT

flanker143 said:


> i think its a mirage2k ....... not lca....



I too had that doubt buddy, but keep your cursor on the Photo and It will display IL 78 refueling LCA tejas


----------



## trident2010

flanker143 said:


> i think its a mirage2k ....... not lca....




Yup they are indeed Mirage 2K.


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## flanker143

> I too had that doubt buddy, but keep your cursor on the Photo and It will display IL 78 refueling LCA tejas



i believe my eyes more than sumones pic note !!!

its indeed a m2k.......

no prob mate lca's air refueling pics will be coming soon.....


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## Arjun MBT

flanker143 said:


> i believe my eyes more than sumones pic note !!!
> 
> its indeed a m2k.......
> 
> no prob mate lca's air refueling pics will be coming soon.....



Hmnnn Yeah Great...


----------



## sudhir007




----------



## flanker143

can anyone tell if there is an increase in weapons load of tejas in mk2 version as it is about 4 tn in mk1 version...... which i think is a bit on the lower side..........


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## Sri

Hi 

MK1 payload is around 3 tons


> There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas&#8217; weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons&#8230; carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.
> 
> But there&#8217;s a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So you&#8217;ll have to shed one ton&#8230; or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. That&#8217;s what happens when a fighter&#8217;s weight goes beyond what was originally planned.
> 
> So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament.



MK1 with its additional weight might just be 3 tons
I believe they might increase it to 4 tons for mk2 version

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## flanker143

> MK1 with its additional weight might just be 3 tons
> I believe they might increase it to 4 tons for mk2 version



but u can always reduce the internal fuel to half and put up more weapons on pylons for short range strikes.......then can we put 3.5+1.5 tn on lca wings ???? plz care to answer.....

just for knowledge .....whats the max weapons load one can put on tejas wings even when fuel is zero .... more like how much load can tejas wings can sustain ???


----------



## Sri

flanker143 said:


> but u can always reduce the internal fuel to half and put up more weapons on pylons for short range strikes.......then can we put 3.5+1.5 tn on lca wings ???? plz care to answer.....
> 
> just for knowledge .....whats the max weapons load one can put on tejas wings even when fuel is zero .... more like how much load can tejas wings can sustain ???



Tejas is a point defense fighter with short range so if we shave of 1.5 tons of fuel then it may not be of any use at all. 
what I mean is 1.5 tons of fuel translates to around 1900 litres, which is less than half of internal fuel (3000 L internal). 
As far as I know the range of Tejas without external tanks/aerial refueling is 300 KM.
So this shaved off fuel (just 1100L) will lead to 50 - 100 KM range which is not enough for any mission. I believe I answered your question.

Seniors pl let me know If I am wrong


----------



## flanker143

> what I mean is 1.5 tons of fuel translates to around *1900 litres, which is less than half of internal fuel (3000 L internal). *






> As far as I know the range of Tejas without external tanks/aerial refueling is 300 KM.


 i cannot believe this at all plz give a source !!!



> I believe I answered your question.



sry mate u didn't .... plzz read my post again !!!


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## Sri

flanker143 said:


> i cannot believe this at all plz give a source !!!
> 
> 
> 
> sry mate u didn't .... plzz read my post again !!!



Range - what I meant was radius of action. please check the specs image on -->http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-105.html

wing loading - http://www.lca-tejas.org/weapons.html 
Theoretically it is possible to load tejas to 5 tons pl check the weapon loading img.

by the way Tejas internal fuel capacity is 3000L --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#Specifications_.28HAL_Tejas.29

And 1500KG will be around 1900 ltr of aviation fuel.

Does this answer your query?


----------



## flanker143

> Range - what I meant was radius of action.



i think we were talking of range and not radius ..... with range u will have to double those km`s (u gave in radius)= 2x300kms

that is .. a max range of 600kms with weapons load..... isn't it ?



> what I mean is 1.5 tons of fuel translates to around 1900 litres, which is less than half of internal fuel (3000 L internal).



1900L isn't less than half of 3000L..... i think u did a little mistake....



> Theoretically it is possible to load tejas to 5 tons pl check the weapon loading img.



thanks alot buddy now i got my answer ......


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## sancho

@ Sir

Could it be that your conclusion is based on the older specs of Tejas?

Check these specs that were provided by HAL at the Defexpo this year:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S36pQgBKyyI/AAAAAAAABOk/iYPLfQ-UkfE/s1600/CIMG2779.JPG


As you can see the empty weight is down to 5680Kg and the internal fuel capacity is given with 2485Kg, which should translates to the 3000l that were expected from the beginning.

Now if the specs are correct it could be even like this:

13500Kg maximum take off weight

- (minus) 5680Kg empty
- 2485Kg fuel

= 5335Kg left!

Which means LCA MK1 should have at least the 4000Kg payload as it was expected at the beginning, if not more.

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## flanker143

> 13500Kg maximum take off weight



as far as i know .. hal is making changes in wing positioning , slight changes to airframe(refined aerodynamics) , and of course a new powerful engine on mk2 version of tejas ..... cant all they lead to greater takeoff weight ????


----------



## sancho

flanker143 said:


> as far as i know .. hal is making changes in wing positioning , slight changes to airframe(refined aerodynamics) , and of course a new powerful engine on mk2 version of tejas ..... cant all they lead to greater takeoff weight ????



Sure, these are specs for the actual MK1 version.


----------



## Sri

flanker143 said:


> i think we were talking of range and not radius ..... with range u will have to double those km`s (u gave in radius)= 2x300kms
> 
> that is .. a max range of 600kms with weapons load..... isn't it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 1900L isn't less than half of 3000L..... i think u did a little mistake....
> 
> 
> 
> thanks alot buddy now i got my answer ......



Hi 
you said adding 1.5 tons of weapons above its 3.5 ( total 5 tons) so I am reducing 1.5 ton of fuel. 1.5 tons of fuel will be around 1900L of aviation fuel.

therefore 3000 - 1900 = 1100L which is less than half.

In the next pic below [ http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-105.html]

the range is specified as around 700 km with one ton load.

so it means 3000L internal fuel + 2500/0.76 liters of external fuel= approx 6200 L of fuel translating to 700km of range or 1400KM distance.

from the above its Around 4.5L of fuel is approximately translating to 1 km.

so with 1100L its going to be 244 KM or 122KM range. 

In fact from the HAL image 3000 L fuel is translating to 300 KM range or 600KM distance.
so 5 Lts of fuel is translating to 1km distance. 

[ My calculation could be absolutely wrong , this is just for having some idea]

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Tx
Sri


----------



## Sri

Hi Sancho,

the Mtow is specified as 13.5t, but ajay shukla has specified in his blog as 13 t. 
Did something change in between and the MTOW is increased to 13.5 t?

as you have mentioned if 5335Kg if left then LCA should be far lighter (even on full load) and should be able to go much faster as well as be maneuverable.
If this is the case then what IAF is complaining about? Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance...
Tx
Sri


----------



## sancho

Sri said:


> Hi Sancho,
> 
> the Mtow is specified as 13.5t, but ajay shukla has specified in his blog as 13 t.
> Did something change in between and the MTOW is increased to 13.5 t?
> 
> as you have mentioned if 5335Kg if left then LCA should be far lighter (even on full load) and should be able to go much faster as well as be maneuverable.
> If this is the case then what IAF is complaining about? Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks in advance...
> Tx
> Sri




The MTOW is still the same, only the weight was reduced. The aim from the beginning was 5.5t empty and so they came closer to their initial aims now, that's why I said 4t payload shouldn't be the problem now. The problems still seems to be the acceleration, even with the new engine (GE 404) as the latest reports hints, but we have to wait for more infos about it.

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## flanker143

> Hi
> you said adding 1.5 tons of weapons above its 3.5 ( total 5 tons) so I am reducing 1.5 ton of fuel. 1.5 tons of fuel will be around 1900L of aviation fuel.
> 
> therefore 3000 - 1900 = 1100L which is less than half.
> 
> In the next pic below [ LCA News & Discussions
> 
> the range is specified as around 700 km with one ton load.
> 
> so it means 3000L internal fuel + 2500/0.76 liters of external fuel= approx 6200 L of fuel translating to 700km of range or 1400KM distance.
> 
> from the above its Around 4.5L of fuel is approximately translating to 1 km.
> 
> so with 1100L its going to be 244 KM or 122KM range.
> 
> In fact from the HAL image 3000 L fuel is translating to 300 KM range or 600KM distance.
> so 5 Lts of fuel is translating to 1km distance.
> 
> [ My calculation could be absolutely wrong , this is just for having some idea]
> 
> Feel free to prove me wrong.



i was trying to say that we take only 1.5 tns or 1900l of internal fuel and 3.5tn weapons.....but i did a mistake while writing


> then can we put 3.5+1.5 tn on lca wings


...

i actually meant 1.5 tns of internal fuel and 3.5tns of weapons.... a little misunderstanding..... sry

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## jha

*India's Own Naval Fighter Emerges Tomorrow*






Tomorrow, the aviation world will for the first time see India's Light Combat Aircraft (Navy), the country's first indigenous combat aircraft for carrier operations.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Own Naval Fighter Emerges Tomorrow


----------



## praveen007

frnds here is some speculation of aesa on tejas (elta=2052)

*LCA Tejas - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur*


At a Glance

Powerplant 1xF404-GE-IN20) 
Thrust (Dry)
54.9 kN (12,250 lbs) 
Thrust (Afterburner)
85 kN (19,000 lbs) 
Internal fuel capacity 3,000 Liters

External fuel capacity
5&#215;800 liter tanks or 3&#215;1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters 


*Radar ELTA EL/M 2052 AESA Elta claims that the long-range AESA fire control system is capable of detecting 64 targets, and of simultaneously engaging "several" using radar-guided missiles*. A prototype of the radar is currently being tested on a Boeing 737 testbed. For ground surveillance, the design is capable of generating high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery and of detecting moving surface targets, and can also be used to support maritime surveillance tasks.

Weight (Empty)
5,500 kg (12,100 lb) 
Weight (Max Take Off)
14,500 kg (31,967 lb) 
Weight (Max Landing)
9,500 kg (21,000 lb)

Wing Loading
221.4 kg/m&#178; (45.35 lb/ft&#178 







  


*NAVAL VARIENT*






*Navy LCA Features*
The naval variant will feature an arrestor hook, a drooped nose for better cockpit visibility, LEVCONS and fore plane to reduce landing speed, auxiliary air-intakes, strengthened undercarriage and fuselage and a fuel dump system.


Maximum T/O from a carrier will be restricted to 12.5 tons, with the max external load being reduced to 3.5 tons

The NP1 is currently being equipped after structural assembly. It is due to roll out from HAL Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) design hangar on July 6. Once the ground based tests are completed , the NP1 is expected to fly by the end of this year. 


The NP2 is likely to fly by the end of 2011. 


The LCA (Navy) NP1 would be flying with the GE-F-404-IN20 engine and is designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing

*http://knol.google.com/k/lca-tejas#LCA_Naval_Variant*


----------



## Sri

I think many of the details mentioned in this are wrong.
e.g. mtow is 13500 kg not 14500.

radar which is mentioned is for mk2 version i believe.
empty weight is 5680 kg not 5500 ( it was the target earlier)

tx
Sri


----------



## lhuang

user360 said:


> i have been an observer on this forum for some time.now
> this is my first post.
> 
> i just felt that in many threads pakistani members jumped to conclusions about the llca tejas aircraft.
> they start comparing it with jf 17.
> they should realise that jf 17 is not indegenous technology..it was designed by the chinese,the engine built by the chinese...later on paf advised changes in the aircrafts that would suit der requirements...
> 
> the jf17 project is just like sukhoi30mki project which india produces locally....
> the jf17 was developed by china mainly for export purposes.....
> 
> on the other hand lca tejas has been developed frm scratch,undergoing improvements,trials etc....tht is the reason behind its delay...drdo could hav directly taken russian help bt they chose nt to(becoz then it would nt giv us the knowhow tht one gets frm development phases)......the lca tejas has almost everything indigenous(except the engine which is undergoing trials nd improvment)....
> 
> i suggest pakistani members not to start blasting my post and if u differ frm my opinion kindly reply in a civilzed manner..i m open to discussions
> 
> junior scientist
> (cant reveal my organization..srry abt that)



Yes revealing your organisation will surely affect national security.


----------



## flanker143

> frnds here is some speculation of aesa on tejas (elta=2052)



as far as i know we won't be using elta 2052 in lca mk2 anymore .... rather the aesa radar wud be an joint ventured radar (between drdo and an int company (not decided)) .....


----------



## praveen007

i know that its time before we see aesa on lca. but today while serching net i came accros the source i posted.


----------



## SpArK

user360 said:


> chinese troller...



He is not a troller. Your comments shows that you have not been following the forum much ..

Talk civilized as you have proposed earlier. okay??

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## SpArK

user360 said:


> ofcourse he is,instead of replying properly he is givin a bs comment.....



He was replying to ur comment about organisation you are working.

He is a much respected member and ur comments shows how much immature you are.

Scientist huh?? In what??


----------



## trident2010

*Hi-Rez PHOTOS: Naval Light Combat Aircraft Rolls Out *




























LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Hi-Rez PHOTOS: Naval Light Combat Aircraft Rolls Out


----------



## Hulk

It's the time to disco, we are getting there, we will go faster now that we have finished the initial hiccups.


----------



## arnab

Its time for lungi dance...

Isn't it a hot sexy baby coming out????

Love to watch her dancing in the sky..


----------



## shaktiman2010

Height of politicization.

Now after roads and pulls, buddhas(Old stupid and gay generation in India) want ceremonies for defence products too.

Typical Indian mentality to start dancing like fools even before it is inducted into Navy.

Where is the work culture? That's what I hate about India. A country of buddhas who love ceremonies and lectures but no focus on work. Imports will do for serious stuff! LCA is for saving the ego.

No wonder 80&#37; of India's college toppers each year fly outside country for working in a better place. That's because India sucks as a society. Hypocrisy rules.


----------



## shaktiman2010

flanker143 said:


> i wasn't harsh at all !! all i said is that this is not the right thread ...
> 
> and even after that i said
> 
> i don hav a have a habit if asking off thread ques...sum may be exception....
> 
> sry no offends but my advice to him to google was much better than what u told him !!!



Then why do you come to this forum if you can't share your knowledge with newcomers?

Stop being arrogant and give some respect to newbies. I believe this forum is for sharing knowledge, not for taunting newcomers.

So, be careful dude, if you don't like people asking basic questions here, then better keep yourself outta this thread or why bother answer them? Be cool.


----------



## anathema

shaktiman2010 said:


> Height of politicization.
> 
> Now after roads and pulls, buddhas(Old stupid and gay generation in India) want ceremonies for defence products too.
> 
> Typical Indian mentality to start dancing like fools even before it is inducted into Navy.
> 
> Where is the work culture? That's what I hate about India. A country of buddhas who love ceremonies and lectures but no focus on work. Imports will do for serious stuff! LCA is for saving the ego.
> 
> No wonder 80% of India's college toppers each year fly outside country for working in a better place. That's because India sucks as a society. Hypocrisy rules.




Shaktiman --

There are some reasons why these ceremonies are needed. Not for any other reason but to build a Brand Image !! For too long India/DRDO has been negligent about Brand building amongst Public/PR. I think this is a good way to do it. 
Further Navy also wants to showcase the progress that the program has been making ever since they rolled up the sleeves and got involved. 
LCA has received lot of flak around the world for right and wrong seasons , if someone has done good work then let them have their share of fame.

The stigma of LCA is still there and will be , but past is past and this is the only way to progress -- Do good work and publicize it. 

My manager used to say this during appraisal -- "Rone wale bache ko hi doodh milta hain"...unless you advertize yourself noone will know what you are capable of and neither will you receive any financial benefits.

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## Choppers

*Second squadron (20nos) of &#8216;Tejas&#8217; fighter jet ordered by IAF*​

BY EDITOR AT 7 JULY, 2010, 1:34 AM

BY: livemint

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has won the approval to buy 20 additional Tejas fighter jets, the home-grown light combat aircraft to be built by military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), defence minister A.K. Antony said on Tuesday.

The defence acquisition council has cleared the plan, he said. So far, IAF has ordered 28 Tejas aircraft, currently under development at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the design agency for the aircraft.

The additional order would give a boost to the indigenous plane project, which has faced an uncertain future due to delays in its development and certification.

&#8220;Now, LCA (light combat aircraft) is a reality,&#8221; said Antony, who recalled that he had received suggestions when he took over as defence minister that the Tejas, the Arjun battle tank and the Akash missile programmes be scrapped. &#8220;Despite all those prophecies of doom, all (three projects) are becoming a reality.&#8221;

The Tejas was conceived in the 1980s to replace the ageing fleet of Russian MiG-21 planes.

The project got the government&#8217;s nod in 1990, a prototype was rolled out in the middle of that decade, and the first Tejas took to the skies in 2001.

Since then, 12 Tejas planes have flown 1,400 flights on test missions. The aircraft is expected to get initial operational clearance, or the certification for minimum standards set by the IAF, by December.

A two-seat naval version of the plane, which was rolled out on Tuesday by the minister, will take to the skies around October, said P.S. Subramanyam, programme director at ADA.

&#8220;The learning has been enormous. We have been able to compress time,&#8221; he said.

The two-seat naval trainer has been redesigned to take off and land on an aircraft carrier&#8212;needing about one-tenth of the 800-900m on a regular runway.

The navy is setting up a shore-based test facility, which will be similar to the deck of the INS Vikramaditya, the aircraft carrier Russia is building for India.

Second squadron (20nos) of ?Tejas? fighter jet ordered by IAF

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## CONNAN

arnab said:


> Its time for lungi dance...
> 
> Isn't it a hot sexy baby coming out????
> 
> Love to watch her dancing in the sky..


----------



## ejaz007

*India Begins Testing Naval LCA*
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI 
Published: 6 Jul 2010 15:16

NEW DELHI - Defence Minister A.K. Antony was present July 6 when India tested the first prototype of its naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) on the ground in Bangalore.

The two-seat naval version of the indigenously developed trainer will now undergo extensive systems integration tests, ground runs and taxi trials before making its first flight later this year, a senior Indian Navy officer said. Another variant of the aircraft will roll out next year. The naval LCA is scheduled to be inducted in the Indian navy in 2015.

Designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore, and the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the naval LCA is equipped to operate from an aircraft carrier with ski-jump takeoff and arrested recovery. Its structure and landing gear have been modified from the existing Air Force version to cater to larger loads and arrested-recovery landings.

The Indian Navy last year placed an order for six naval LCAs and has committed to pay about $30 million for each.

The naval LCA is a small, tailless, multirole supersonic fighter aircraft. It will be deployed on the Air Defence Ship, India's indigenously built aircraft carrier, which is due to enter Navy service in 2014-15.

India Begins Testing Naval LCA - Defense News


----------



## flanker143

> Then why do you come to this forum if you can't share your knowledge with newcomers?
> 
> Stop being arrogant and give some respect to newbies. I believe this forum is for sharing knowledge, not for taunting newcomers.
> 
> So, be careful dude, if you don't like people asking basic questions here, then better keep yourself outta this thread or why bother answer them? Be cool.



enough of ur useless bashing man , only u r going hot here ........ i never wanted to hurt him

i just wanted him to have a *detailed knowledge* ...... which he wont be getting here ... dats why i asked him to google it as it wud hav been better for him .......

although i admit i failed to provide a link ... that was my mistake......

also name one member who provided a detailed knowledge......


----------



## Tejas-MkII

Aeronautical Development Agency to bring in advisor for Tejas Mark-2 - dnaindia.com

*Aeronautical Development Agency to bring in advisor for Tejas Mark-2*

Praveena Sharma / DNAFriday, July 9, 2010 2:00 IST Email 


Bangalore: After the rollout of the prototype of the light combat aircraft (LCA) Navy - NP1 early this week, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is now looking at finalising an aerospace partner for the development of its advanced prototype  Tejas Mark-2. 

The LCA Tejas is being developed in two variants for the Indian Air Force and Navy by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), ADA and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). 

Commodore C D Balaji, director-LCA Navy-ADA, told DNA Money the state-run defence aerospace firm would be appointing a consultant for the Tejas Mark-2 in the next couple of months. 
Since ADAs negotiation with US-based Lockheed Martin, which had qualified for the consultancy of the LCA Tejas, has failed, it would be European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) that would be brought in to advise it on the programme.
Balaji said ADA would get in an aerospace expert to resolve issues on weight of the aircraft, location of the arrester and other such technical issues in the Tejas Mark-2 programme. 

We have been conservative in our design and development of the LCA NP1 and NP2 (Air Force version), but would like to optimise them in the future prototypes (Tejas Mark1 and Mark2). We will need experienced firms for this, said Balaji. 

He said ADA was taking baby steps in LCA project and was apprehensive about it. It (LCA Navy) is weaker than the required in some areas, said the ADAs director. 

Simultaneously, ADA is also in the process of the selecting engines for the LCA Tejas for which it had sent out request for proposal (RFP) to General Electric (GE) for its F-414 and Eurojet for its EJ200. 

Balaji said both the engines are technically compliant and their financial bid was under evaluation. He said after the down selection of the engines, the design and aero-structure of the LCA could be required to be modified.

Defence aerospace experts believe ADA would need help of a global aerospace partner to accelerate the pace of the programme and quickly resolve complicated technical issues. 

Once they (ADA) move to developing the new variants (for the LCA),they will need help in areas such as determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on aircraft, ways to test the arrester hook system, aerodynamic fixes to improvetakeoff and landing performance on the carrier, optimising the landing gear design to handle larger operating weight,recommend alternative engine with higher thrust to enhance thrust-to-weight ratio and making associated changes in the aircrafts structural configuration forreduction of weightby 500 kg and integration of operational payload on the aircraft, said an expert. 

The Indian Navy requires over 50 aircraft and has ordered for six till now.

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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> Once they (ADA) move to developing the new variants (for the LCA),they will need help in areas such as determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on aircraft, ways to test the arrester hook system, aerodynamic fixes to improvetakeoff and landing performance on the carrier, optimising the landing gear design to handle larger operating weight,recommend alternative engine with higher thrust to enhance thrust-to-weight ratio and making associated changes in the aircrafts structural configuration forreduction of weightby 500 kg and integration of operational payload on the aircraft, said an expert.


And EADS has the experience to do all that from?
Dassault, or Mikoyan are clearly the better choices for these naval changes.

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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> And EADS has the experience to do all that from?
> Dassault, or Mikoyan are clearly the better choices for these naval changes.



N-LCA will be Mk-II version of Tejas,not sure about the first 6.

EADS will provide consultancy services to ADA/DRDO/HAL for Mk-II.

SO i think they want a seperate consultant for N-LCA.


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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> N-LCA will be Mk-II version of Tejas,not sure about the first 6.
> 
> EADS will provide consultancy services to ADA/DRDO/HAL for Mk-II.
> 
> SO i think they want a seperate consultant for N-LCA.



As far as I understand it, the first six should be N-LCA trainers with GE 404 engines, most likely based on MK1. Will be interesting to see how they should take off from the carries, if even the IAF version is said to have an acceleration problem.
EADS for IAF LCA MK1 and 2 is not the problem for me, I even would appreciate it, but for IN it simply dosn't make sense. They don't have real experience regarding a carrier fighter, all they did with Sea Typhoon were some studies. That's why I asked, how they want to do it?


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## rocky2

Can anyone post LCA pictures with fully armed, rolling in the sky


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## ganimi kawa

Cross Posting from the NLCA thread...

*LCA (Navy) Will Add Punch To Blue Water Vision, Adm. Nirmal Verma Says*

Link



> CNS: The LCA (Navy) was sanctioned in March 03 [following] the success of LCA (AF) in January 2001. They were planned as a possible replacement to our aging fleet of Sea Harriers, which have been in service since the 80s. The vision of the Navy has always been to be an effective force, and hence *LCA (Navy) shall play an important role in our future carrier operations doctrine. The LCA (Navy) design specifically caters [to] the first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC1) *scheduled to be delivered by Cochin Shipyard Ltd by 2014. The aircraft is expected to have state-of-art sensors and weapons and *would be an integral part of our air arm. *LCA (Navy) would add punch to the Navys blue water vision.



Nice to see such emphatic backing of the project by IN. It does look like Navy has some concrete ideas about the capability of NLCA and how to utilize them.


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## flanker143

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence

*The following is the full text of the speech that was delivered by LCA-Navy programme director COMMODORE CD BALAJI on 06 July 2010 at the roll-out ceremony of the aircraft's first prototype, NP-1.*

In 2003, based on the progress made on the Air Force LCA Programme the Govt approved Phase-1 development of 2 LCA Navy Prototypes that would operate from an aircraft carrier with the concept of Ski-jump Take-off and Arrested Recovery (STOBAR). Navy actively supported this Challenging programme to design, develop, build and flight test a carrier borne aircraft for the first time in the country. The two prototypes under development would be used to demonstrate that the aircraft is capable of operating from a ship, i.e., carrier compatible.

The question often asked is &#8216;what are the changes in LCA(Navy) in comparison to the Air Force version?&#8217; Typically the aircraft will get airborne in about 200m over the ski-jump on the ship as against a land based take-off run of about 800m. Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship and the aircraft stops in 90m which is about 1/10th land based stopping distance.

Unlike shore based take-off and landing applications, typical ship borne requirements imposes large loads on the aircraft structure which entails new design. Also, the nose section of the aircraft is drooped down in order to have better pilot vision for ship landing. Whilst the external aerodynamic shape of the aircraft is same as the Air Force Trainer, the internal structure is entirely different due to larger loads resulting from carrier operations. However, all Mechanical, Avionics and Flight Control system layout are by and large common with the Air Force version. The design of LCA(Navy) has been performed in a 3Dimensional Computer Aided Design (CAD) concurrent engineering environment. A Digital Mock Up (DMU) of the aircraft was ultimately created which had all the internal equipment laid out. This helped in visualising possible areas of clash with various system groups and the structural interfaces due a possibility of &#8216;virtual walk through&#8217;. No physical mock up has been built. Due to first time design, there could be additional reserve factors taken as a conservative measure, but would be optimised based on experience in the future prototypes. This would result in significant weight savings.

Areas identified as challenges over and above the Air Force Version were structural design, Landing gear design, arrester hook, introduction of a new control surface (LEVCON) and ski-jump take-off. A case in point for Naval specific activities was the development of large sized landing gear forgings. Midhani had to develop the special tooling and processes and provide the special steel forgings. In addition, Bharat Forge, Pune provided the near shaped forgings of the major landing gear elements. These have been fabricated at private companies at Hyderabad and landing gears have been assembled at HAL (Nasik). Some of the typical challenges encountered during the development cycle, resulted in them taking longer than anticipated. However, today these have been resolved and we all await the aircraft&#8217;s rollout in the presence of the Hon&#8217;ble Raksha Mantri and the Chief of the Naval Staff.

In its primary role of Air to Air combat, the aircraft will carry both Close Combat Missiles (CCM) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles. In its Air to Sea role, the aircraft will carry Anti Ship Missile (ASM). The aircraft can carry external fuel drop tanks to increase range and endurance. The aircraft can carry a wide variety of bombs based on role requirement.

To meet specific Naval testing, new test facilities have and are being developed. A new landing gear drop test facility has been created to handle testing to Naval requirements for qualifying larger landing gear loads. A hardware-in-loop simulation for flight control system testing called &#8216;Iron-bird&#8217; has been set up and functioning. In this facility, entire hydraulics, flight control system and avionics would be integrated for the evaluation of the software. The Avionics and Weapon test rigs have been suitably modified to test the changes in system layout and architecture required for the Naval version. Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) to simulate an aircraft carrier with ski-jump and arrested recovery is being set up at the Naval Air Station at Goa. The ski-jump facility is expected to be ready by the last quarter of 2011 and the landing area a year later. Goa Shipyard Ltd is handling the complete structural work, system integration and operations. R&D Engineers and CCE(R&D) west Pune are handling the civil works. Specialised equipment supply is from Russia in order to have the same configuration as on the Vikramaditya.

It is critical to demonstrate carrier compatibility to infuse confidence in the Indian Navy that we indeed have a Carrier borne aircraft and towards that it is critical to demonstrate ski-jump take off and validate the simulations that have been carried out by the control Law team. Navy has defined the Mission and Performance requirements expected of the aircraft. As mentioned earlier, due to first time design, there may be shortfall in certain parameters with the current engine. Two more LCA(Navy) prototypes has been sanctioned by the Govt in Dec 2009 with a higher thrust engine to enable meeting the Mission objectives set out by the Navy.

The act of &#8216;Rollout&#8217; is a significant milestone in the development process of an aircraft wherein it is structurally complete, equipment installed, plumbing and wiring completed. The aircraft is on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power and is a precursor to the phase of ground based system integration testing leading the engine ground run, taxi tests and flight. Every effort is being made by all the stake holders to have the maiden flight in 3 to 4 months time.

This day of NP1 rollout has been possible with the active involvement of HAL as the Principal Partner of ADA and support by DRDO, CSIR labs, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Public and Private sector industries, Educational Institutions and a host of other agencies. I wish to salute all of those who have contributed as a composite LCA Navy Team in realising this important milestone and look forward to the same spirit to take the aircraft towards its maiden flight at the earliest.


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## praveen007

@ roky 2
go to page 192 on post #2880 of this thread u will get those pics.


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## Tejas-MkII

Israel, EU in contention to co-develop radars for Tejas - Indian Express

*Israel, EU in contention to co-develop radars for Tejas*


India is close to finalising a developmental partner for a next generation radar that will be the eyes and ears of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in the future. With other contenders falling off the race due to different reasons, the race now is between European Consortium EADS and Israeli company Elta that are vying for the initial contract to co-develop 10 prototypes of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar with India. 

*While the initial contract is for 10 prototypes, industry estimates put the requirement of the Indian defence forces at close to 600 radars for different types of fighters, making the deal potentially worth over $ 3 billion over the next decade. The tenders for co-development were issued by DRDOs Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) in December last year for the LCA Mk II that has already been approved by the government. *


Sources said that LRDE is close to short listing its partner for the project and the competition now is between Elta and EADS, down from the initial bid by five companies that were vying for the potentially large contract. *While EADS is showcasing its X band technology, Elta specialises in L band technology and is promoting its new generation X band antenna. *

While US companies did not participate in the tender  apparently after they could not gain permission from the government to share the high end technology  Russias largest radar company Phazotron and Frances defence giant Thales were dropped due to technical reasons. Italian Selex did not make it to the next round after failing to deposit the earnest money specified in the tender. 

*The radar will also be considered for the SU 30 MKI upgrade *and modernisation projects for front line fighters of the Navy and Air Force.


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## Novice09

rocky2 said:


> Can anyone post LCA pictures with fully armed, rolling in the sky


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## Dash

It looks like Photoshopped....anyway thank you


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## IndianArmy

Fully armed TEJAS....

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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> Israel, EU in contention to co-develop radars for Tejas - Indian Express
> 
> *Israel, EU in contention to co-develop radars for Tejas*
> 
> 
> India is close to finalising a developmental partner for a next generation radar that will be the eyes and ears of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in the future. With other contenders falling off the race due to different reasons, the race now is between European Consortium EADS and Israeli company Elta that are vying for the initial contract to co-develop 10 prototypes of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar with India.
> 
> *While the initial contract is for 10 prototypes, industry estimates put the requirement of the Indian defence forces at close to 600 radars for different types of fighters, making the deal potentially worth over $ 3 billion over the next decade. The tenders for co-development were issued by DRDOs Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) in December last year for the LCA Mk II that has already been approved by the government. *
> 
> 
> Sources said that LRDE is close to short listing its partner for the project and the competition now is between Elta and EADS, down from the initial bid by five companies that were vying for the potentially large contract. *While EADS is showcasing its X band technology, Elta specialises in L band technology and is promoting its new generation X band antenna. *
> 
> While US companies did not participate in the tender  apparently after they could not gain permission from the government to share the high end technology  Russias largest radar company Phazotron and Frances defence giant Thales were dropped due to technical reasons. Italian Selex did not make it to the next round after failing to deposit the earnest money specified in the tender.
> 
> *The radar will also be considered for the SU 30 MKI upgrade *and modernisation projects for front line fighters of the Navy and Air Force.



Again, very unexpected to shortlist EADS for such a development, while Selsex, Thales and Phazotron would be preferable, because of experience, or own AESA developments. EADS is a part of Euroradar, but it will be the Selsex AESA radar that will equip the EF.
With all the EADS involvement in LCA now (weight reductions, redesigns for a carrier version, possibly this radar co-development and the offer of an advanced trainer version) I think the chances for EJ 200 are more than good.
However, in this development we must expect the unexpected righ?


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Again, very unexpected to shortlist EADS for such a development, while Selsex, Thales and Phazotron would be preferable, because of experience, or own AESA developments. EADS is a part of Euroradar, but it will be the Selsex AESA radar that will equip the EF.
> With all the EADS involvement in LCA now (weight reductions, redesigns for a carrier version, possibly this radar co-development and the offer of an advanced trainer version) I think the chances for EJ 200 are more than good.
> However, in this development we must expect the unexpected righ?


I completely agree, EADS is not a company for RADAR developement. Others will be better.


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## flanker143

*Report: Elta Or EADS To Help Build Tejas AESA, Project Codenamed "Uttam"*

India's home-grown AESA radar effort will soon finalise a developent partner, reports The Indian Express. According to the report, a progressive downselect since December -- when the DRDO first invited bids -- has come down to Israel's Elta and EADS Defence & Security, following the elimination of Selex, Phazotron and Thales. A recent Livefist post on the Tejas AESA is here. Oh, and by the way, I hear the *LCA AESA is being developed under something called "Project Uttam".*


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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> However, in this development we must expect the unexpected righ?



Are you talking about the context of MMRCA...


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1400 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-10).

* LCA has completed 1400 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-153,PV3-222,LSP1-59,LSP2-154,PV5-15,LSP3-14,LSP4-3). 

(02-July-10)Tejas-LCA


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## kish

praveen007 said:


> some lovely pics of *LCA* enjoy
> 
> 
> ya really good pics ..


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## Dark Angel

^^^^^

If BVR can be solved for JF-17 only then it has a chance of being a potent fighter ....right now Tejas can fire Missiles like R-77 and Etc.....so there is still gap to be filled


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## Tejas-MkII

*Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe*

Jul 19, 2010 



By Neelam Mathews mathews.neelam@gmail.com
NEW DELHI 


U.K.-based Cobham is in discussions with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Indias Aeronautical Development Agency *about retrofitting a retractable refueling probe on the current model of the Light Combat Aircraft as well as the Mk2 version.*

While Cobham is not certain how the business model will be globally tendered, the companys experience will be a definite advantage, according to Lee Griffiths, director of Cobham India.

The Indian air force and navy are believed to be keen to get the fueling probe because of issues with flight handling, drag and movability.

We will develop and design a retractable refueling probe, Griffiths says. LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ... Unfortunately, were later in the design period. We will roll out the retractable [version] by 2013-14.

*Cobham has already provided to the Indian air force 20 Buddy Refueling Pods for its Su-30s - Mark 754.* Its main features include a fueldraulic hose rewind and response, digital control systems, easy installation via a pylon bolted under the fuselage and up to 75-ft. hose length.

The recent joint air combat exercise that India held with the French air force in June included a Su-30 tanker.

The design has a refuel body that sits under the belly of the Su-30, Griffiths says. It allows [missions] as a tactical air-to-air refueler ... because the drogue and probe is of international standards.

As Indias Sukhoi fleet grows,* Cobham is looking at future requirements of 40-50 more. The premise is that in combat the IL-78  Indias refueler  could become a high-value target. The Su-30 could refuel another Su-30 and both can fight.*

The company also is in the early stage of talks with the Indian air force for the probes on helicopters. For example, a C-130J can be retrofitted to the KC-130J, Griffiths says. A fueling probe on a Mi-17 can be refueled by a C-130J. The same is for the VVIP AW101, which will give flexibility to VVIP movements. 

Cobham says it has the ability to integrate mission systems capability onto helicopters including weapons carriage, safety and survival equipment and refueling probes.


Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe | AVIATION WEEK


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## jha

This is a wise decision..why try to invent the wheel again.When you have the option of outsourcing to a leader.
BTW retractable refueling probe is a good choice as there is a constraint of space in the front face/nose of Tejas..


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## sudhir007

i think HAL also develop refueling device incorporate with LM. So why they import. is it any differnce between that ??? 

Lockheed Martins India-developed aerial refueling device to be displayed at Farnborough Air Show 2010 : Defense news


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## Tejas-MkII

sudhir007 said:


> i think HAL also develop refueling device incorporate with LM. So why they import. is it any differnce between that ???
> 
> Lockheed Martins India-developed aerial refueling device to be displayed at Farnborough Air Show 2010 : Defense news



well this might be the reason:



> LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ...



Also device offered by Cobham is retractable or removable.
Not sure that device by HAL have this capability.


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## Nishan_101

This topic made everyone sick and no one is willing to talk about it and i think that LCA might not be the plane that they were saying it supposed to be in IAF and i think the same way as journalist i don't where i have read it in this forum, whose report was posted about different aviation projects that are going on. Has reported that initial contract will be made for 126 MMRCA but when the license production start the no will go to 300 and eventually replacing the MiG-21's from IAF's fleet. So i think you get it. 
I request the ADMIN and Senior members that if are able to find the found article the plz post so that Indians could believe it.


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## Nishan_101

By Ramesh Phadke

According to media reports India has recently embarked on the most ambitious air power modernisation programme in its entire history. The proposals include the 126 MMRCA for US $10 billion, ten C-17 heavy lift transport aircraft worth $2.4 billion, eight Boeing P8I LRMP (for the Navy) worth $2.1 billion, six Lockheed Martin C-130J for $962 million, six second-hand Sea King helicopters (for the Navy) and a whole host of other equipment including many helicopters for the Indian Army. There are also reports of the Indian Air Force buying some 12 used Mirage-2000 fighters from Qatar.

The last time the IAF did so was in the 1979-89 period during which almost all of its current assets were purchased. Beginning with the BAE Jaguar in 1979, the IAF acquired in quick time the MiG-23 (BN&MF) strike and air defence aircraft, the MiG-25 the Mach 3 high altitude strategic reconnaissance aircraft, An-32 medium lift transports, Il-76 heavy lift aircraft, additional Mi-17 helicopters, Mi-25/35 attack helicopters, Mi-26 super heavy helicopters, Mirage-2000 multi-role fighters, MiG-29 air superiority fighters and the MiG-27 strike aircraft, completing a comprehensive overhaul of its fleet. (In response to the IAF Jaguar Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA), Pakistan soon got some 40 F-16 Fighting Falcons from the United States.) The IAF also slowly phased out the Fairchild Packet C-119, the Dakota DC-3, Caribou, Otter, Toofani, Mystere 4A, Gnat, Ajeet and the Hunter and later the Canberra light bomber aircraft as well.

In 1996 it also acquired the Sukhoi 30MKI (Flanker), the modern air superiority fighter which could roughly be compared to the US F-15. Current estimates are that besides the 50 odd Su-30 aircraft with the IAF, some 140 more have been ordered from Russia and another 140 are to be manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under licence. There is, however, some confusion about these figures.

The HAL is also slated to participate with Russia in the development of the fifth generation fighter to the extent of 25 per cent. The fighter made its first flight recently and it is believed that since most development is more or less complete India would again end up manufacturing it under some sort of &#8216;licence&#8217; arrangement.

By the turn of the century its flagship fighter programme bore fruit when the LCA, later named Tejas, flew in February 2001. In the last nine years it has completed most of the flight test work and is due to get its IOC or Initial Operational Clearance by the end of 2010 and begin entering IAF squadrons by 2012.

The HAL-made Dhruv light helicopter also started series production around the same time and has recently been exported to Chile.

The IAF&#8217;s current strength is around 600 of which the MiG21 fleet of FL, M, MF and Bis types comprise 293 aircraft. But can we really say whether all is well with its war fighting capability? The combat strength of the Indian Air Force (IAF) has dwindled from 39 to nearly 30 squadrons. There are reports of poor serviceability in many of the fleets, the MiG-27 and 29 upgrade programmes are taking their own time, only a dozen or less of the much vaunted AJT BAE Hawks have been inducted and in the year or so since they began training operations it is rumoured that spares package of the entire fleet of 66 trainers has been used up.

Following a fatal accident of the HPT-32 basic trainer in July 2009 in which two experienced instructors were killed, the IAF grounded the entire fleet of the HPT-32 and switched to &#8216;all jet training&#8217; on Kiran Mk-1 and II trainers. A debate goes on if this is indeed a better way to train its pilots &#8216;ab initio&#8217; or should it do so with new aircraft. In the meantime a Request For Proposal (RFP) for some 75 basic trainers has been issued by the government but given our experience of defence procurement it will take anything from three to five years to actually get these trainers. The IJT or the Intermediate Jet Trainer programme is also lagging behind and the HTT-34 project to produce a turboprop basic trainer roughly in the same class as the Toucano was shelved in the early 1980s. Since the Kirans are already over 30 years old it is feared that the IAF&#8217;s training schedule and its operational preparedness would be adversely affected simply because there would be fewer pilots to fly the new aircraft that would be inducted by then.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has recently received an additional 18 F-16 of the Block 52 series taking its total to 64, seven JF 17 (also known as FC-1) Thunder fighters from China and has ordered some 36 J-10 fighters and hopes to get even the Super 10 when it is ready. The Super-10 incidentally is an upgraded version of the J-10 with a TVC engine locally made in China. The PAF is also eying the Chinese L-15 supersonic trainer. Pakistan has also ordered eight Erieye AEW&C from Sweden and is to get some S-70 Super Cobra helicopters from the United States to improve its capacity for anti-terror operations. Its current strength is reportedly 383 combat capable aircraft including 41 obsolete Chinese A-5, 129 F-7 PG/MG (improved Chinese version of the MiG-21), nearly 113 vintage Mirage III/V, some 64-plus F-16 fighters and seven FC-1/JF-17 of which some 150 are on order. PAF officials are aiming to finally acquire a whopping 200 FC-1 and 150 J-10s from China in the next decade.

The Chinese Air Force officially known as the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) currently possesses some 1653 combat capable aircraft (and in addition the PLA Navy has another 290) of which some 30 per cent are current generation including 84 J-10, 116 J-11(Su-27), 97 Su-30MKK, 156 JH/FB-7, 516 J-8, and 540 J-7. It is noteworthy that since its unveiling in 2003-04, the PLAAF has already inducted 84 J-10 fighters of the roughly F-16 class, which means that China has the capacity build 40 to 50 fighters per year.

Not only has China built the first ever Airbus outside Europe but has rolled out a Cessna-162 basic trainer and is planning to produce some 1500 of these aircraft. According to Aviation Week & Space Technology (AWST) Annual Review Resource Book 2009, &#8216;Aircraft Forecasting&#8217; Report, China would rank among the major producers of modern fighters in the current decade with the capacity to produce 45 to 48 fighters of the J-10 and J-11 class. This means that the PLAAF would field some 1500 to 2000 modern fighters by 2020.

In addition to some 1500 Short Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM), China has recently modified some of its land-based Medium Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBM) to carry conventional warheads for use as Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) strategy. These missiles are capable of hitting moving targets like aircraft carriers on the high seas. China has already fielded its own version of the AWACS, intercepted a missile in an exoatmospheric engagement (January 2010) and destroyed a satellite (January 2007). In addition it recently launched the third of its geo-synchronous Compass-3 satellites in its effort to complete its own satellite navigation system (like the American GPS) comprising 30 medium orbit satellites and three geosynchronous ones.

In light of the above, India has little choice but to complete its procurement as quickly as possible if the IAF is to be ready to face a conventional conflict. Although India has shown the utmost restraint in its response to terror attacks from across the border, it must always maintain the capacity of launching a punitive strike against Pakistan if and when necessary. It is this capacity that will eventually help deter a terrorist strike or a conventional war.

India has, however, shown extreme reluctance to use force; perhaps for good reasons. But the result is that employment of air power is seen as the very last option. Although things have reportedly improved, many Indian thinkers consider use of air power as escalatory, think it is ineffective in the high mountains and shun it for fear of collateral damage. Given the US experience in Afghanistan, especially the Kunduz incident of last year in which some 100 innocent civilians were killed, air power has taken much flak. In spite of all the developments in precision fire power there is still no way of identifying insurgents or terrorists operating in small groups. So fast jet combat air power is perhaps not always effective against insurgents but no one can write its epitaph. Even after a drone has identified a terrorist hideout a fighter aircraft may be required to finish the task as happened in a recent engagement in the AFPAK region.

China&#8217;s increasing emphasis on anti-ship, cruise and conventional ballistic missiles, both land and sea based, raises new questions of a robust response. The PLAAF may well use these in large numbers in the initial stage of a conflict achieving surprise, selective damage, and economy of effort in a lethal air defence environment. Whatever India decides, it cannot but rely on air, or more correctly, aerospace power.

Link: http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/APerspe ... dke_100210


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## Nishan_101

Sorry i got that for Indians:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/65350-briefing-fighter-club.html

India

In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.

A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.

India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.

INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS

The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:

The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
 For Indians


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## SpArK

Nishan_101 said:


> Sorry i got that for Indians:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/65350-briefing-fighter-club.html
> 
> India
> 
> In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.
> 
> A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.
> 
> India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.
> 
> INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS
> 
> The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:
> 
> The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
> For Indians



*Very informative and very unknown news indeed. Thanks anyway.

.*


Indians please  now..


----------



## Nishan_101

BENNY said:


> *Very informative and very unknown news indeed. Thanks anyway.
> 
> .*
> 
> 
> Indians please  now..



*Instead of saying thanks you can click to thanks button on the bottom right that would be much better.*


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## FulcrumD

Armed Tejas


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## SpArK

Nishan_101 said:


> *Instead of saying thanks you can click to thanks button on the bottom right that would be much better.*



Will try that next time .. now keep on posting things we dont know.


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## jha

Nishan_101 said:


> Sorry i got that for Indians:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/65350-briefing-fighter-club.html
> 
> India
> 
> In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.
> 
> A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.
> 
> India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.
> 
> INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS
> 
> The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:
> 
> The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
> For Indians




THANK YOU sir for the highly informative post...keep posting such items...


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## SQ8

Dark Angel said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> If BVR can be solved for JF-17 only then it has a chance of being a potent fighter ....right now Tejas can fire Missiles like R-77 and Etc.....so there is still gap to be filled




I cant believe how dominant the gene for "pakistani aint good enough" is in most of the Indian gene pool.

The JF has tested BVR in China..


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## Dark Angel

santro said:


> I cant believe how dominant the gene for "pakistani aint good enough" is in most of the Indian gene pool.
> 
> The JF has tested BVR in China..






Do you have a video of JF firing a BVR


----------



## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> Are you talking about the context of MMRCA...



No, just that we don't go for the obvious and easy way in this development. Developing everything on our own, don't go for co-developments/JV from the start but now, chosing companies for consultancy with limited experience (LM for N-LCA, now possibly EADS for N-LCA and AESA radar), while rejecting the logic choices (Dassault, Mig, or Boeing for N-LCA, or one of those companies that already are developing an AESA radar for a fighter like Phazotron, Thales, or Selsex Galileo).


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## CONNAN

sancho said:


> No, just that we don't go for the obvious and easy way in this development. Developing everything on our own, don't go for co-developments/JV from the start but now, chosing companies for consultancy with limited experience (LM for N-LCA, now possibly EADS for N-LCA and AESA radar), while rejecting the logic choices (Dassault, Mig, or Boeing for N-LCA, or one of those companies that already are developing an AESA radar for a fighter like Phazotron, Thales, or Selsex Galileo).



when the LCA project was being envisaged, we had either of two roads in front of us (pursuing both was not an option given our precarious financial condition back then. funding even one project was a considerable stretch)

a) a low-risk option to develop a mig-21 derivative with a better radar(if available) and more fuel or a similar ajeet derivative. India's aerospace industry was at the time a full 2 generations behind russia and the west, a gap of roughly 20-25 years. to put it in another way, HF-24 marut was still our sole capability in 1980 which was equivalent to mid to late 1950's fighters from elsewhere. going this way would still keep the aerospace industry about 20 years behind the rest, since the proposed design was barely a 3rd generation. in comparison, all major aerospace powers had 4-gen fighters flying for some years at that time.
there was also the doubt whether this fighter would be useful 20-30 years in the future

b) the other route was to take the risky step to try and skip a generation in developing a 4gen straight from 2gen capabilities. that meant setting up new infrastructure, develop competencies in subjects we knew little about as a country, like FBW systems, composites, advanced avionics and so on. IOW, the LCA project was much more than a mere aircraft project, it was a project to develop a state-of-the-art aerospace sector.
if we do a little stock-taking, we can say that even if the LCA project is cancelled tomorrow morning, it is still a success. it is because of the LCA project that we are able to upgrade all our legacy aircrafts like mig-27's, that we can confidently approach the PAKFA as a contributor and even think of developing a 5gen fighter.

in hindsight, IMHO, we chose correctly, even if the project management wasn't always as expected.if we chose the other route we would now be testing a 3.5 gen fighter and dreaming of making a 4gen next, not a 5gen.

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## Nishan_101

Briefing: Fighter club

India

In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.

A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.

India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.

INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS

The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:

The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
For Indians


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## SQ8

Dark Angel said:


> Do you have a video of JF firing a BVR



No but I have a video of SRK in maya memsaab.
Proving that he too can grab ___s.
So has our very own Shaan, rambo etc.. 
But you wont find a video of him doing it.
Unlike you guys we arent exhibitionists, if we did something we wont beat the world up about it.. crying "we did it..we did it.. look maa.. we did it!!!".

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## SpArK

santro said:


> No but I have a video of SRK in maya memsaab.
> Proving that he too can grab ___s.
> So has our very own Shaan, rambo etc..
> But you wont find a video of him doing it.
> Unlike you guys we arent exhibitionists, if we did something we wont beat the world up about it.. crying "we did it..we did it.. look maa.. we did it!!!".



How is this relevant to the topic?/

By this logic anybody can claim anything. 

Yuppie..  i can even fly..


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## SQ8

BENNY said:


> How is this relevant to the topic?/
> 
> By this logic anybody can claim anything.
> 
> Yuppie..  i can even fly..



It is very relevant and used very very often, It lets you claim Kashmiri's love India, Us claim the Balochi's are happy people ,the US claim that Saddam had WMD's and Micheal jackson was infact not a pedophile...only of these is true though.


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## SpArK

santro said:


> It is very relevant and used very very often, It lets you claim Kashmiri's love India, Us claim the Balochi's are happy people and the US claim that Saddam had WMD's.



Again points that are off topic and irrelevant to the basic discussion.

The original question was "Do you have a video of JF firing a BVR?"

You brought ShahRukh Khan,**** in maya memzab Rambo, Kashmir, saddam, Baloch,etc instead of answering a simple straight forward question.


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## KEETARP

Offtopic ,
Kashmir / jf17 have relevant threads . Take all that discussion in respective threads . 
I don't see Jf17 having any relevance to LCA thread


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## SQ8

BENNY said:


> Again points that are off topic and irrelevant to the basic discussion.
> 
> The original question was "Do you have a video of JF firing a BVR?"
> 
> You brought ShahRukh Khan,**** in maya memzab Rambo, Kashmir, saddam, Baloch,etc instead of answering a simple straight forward question.



No, none was made.. but the above do illustrate something as an example, just because no one taped it doesn't mean it did not happen..
Otherwise most of us should be denying our own existence, since no proof of us being "made" actually exists.


----------



## KS

connanxlrc1000 said:


> when the LCA project was being envisaged, we had either of two roads in front of us (pursuing both was not an option given our precarious financial condition back then. funding even one project was a considerable stretch)
> 
> a) a low-risk option to develop a mig-21 derivative with a better radar(if available) and more fuel or a similar ajeet derivative. India's aerospace industry was at the time a full 2 generations behind russia and the west, a gap of roughly 20-25 years. to put it in another way, HF-24 marut was still our sole capability in 1980 which was equivalent to mid to late 1950's fighters from elsewhere. going this way would still keep the aerospace industry about 20 years behind the rest, since the proposed design was barely a 3rd generation. in comparison, all major aerospace powers had 4-gen fighters flying for some years at that time.
> there was also the doubt whether this fighter would be useful 20-30 years in the future
> 
> b) the other route was to take the risky step to try and skip a generation in developing a 4gen straight from 2gen capabilities. that meant setting up new infrastructure, develop competencies in subjects we knew little about as a country, like FBW systems, composites, advanced avionics and so on. IOW, the LCA project was much more than a mere aircraft project, it was a project to develop a state-of-the-art aerospace sector.
> if we do a little stock-taking, we can say that even if the LCA project is cancelled tomorrow morning, it is still a success. it is because of the LCA project that we are able to upgrade all our legacy aircrafts like mig-27's, that we can confidently approach the PAKFA as a contributor and even think of developing a 5gen fighter.
> 
> in hindsight, IMHO, we chose correctly, even if the project management wasn't always as expected.if we chose the other route we would now be testing a 3.5 gen fighter and dreaming of making a 4gen next, not a 5gen.



Mate i think u mis-understood wat Sancho said.

He didn say that we should have gone step by step....first a third gen,then 3.5 then to 4 and he was not faulting the Indian planners for going starightly to 4 th Gen.

*Wat he meant was we ignore some obvious choices and go for ones that rarely make sense*...case in point EADS/LM for N-LCA who practically have no experience in buiilding delta-winged carrier-borne fighters.
Rather it would have been gr8 if we had gone to Dassault (Rafale) or even Boeing (Super Hornet) who have experience in building fighters that operate from carriers.

And we would have gone with a JV for develping the LCA with say MiG or Dassault...in that way we could have speeded up te process and LCA would have been inducted few years back and the Mk II version would be in the final stage of trials.

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## Sunny FOXGLOVE



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## sancho

connanxlrc1000 said:


> when the LCA project was being envisaged, we had either of two roads in front of us (pursuing both was not an option given our precarious financial condition back then. funding even one project was a considerable stretch)
> 
> a) a low-risk option to develop a mig-21 derivative with a better radar(if available) and more fuel or a similar ajeet derivative. India's aerospace industry was at the time a full 2 generations behind russia and the west, a gap of roughly 20-25 years. to put it in another way, HF-24 marut was still our sole capability in 1980 which was equivalent to mid to late 1950's fighters from elsewhere. going this way would still keep the aerospace industry about 20 years behind the rest, since the proposed design was barely a 3rd generation. in comparison, all major aerospace powers had 4-gen fighters flying for some years at that time.
> there was also the doubt whether this fighter would be useful 20-30 years in the future
> 
> b) the other route was to take the risky step to try and skip a generation in developing a 4gen straight from 2gen capabilities. that meant setting up new infrastructure, develop competencies in subjects we knew little about as a country, like FBW systems, composites, advanced avionics and so on. IOW, the LCA project was much more than a mere aircraft project, it was a project to develop a state-of-the-art aerospace sector.
> if we do a little stock-taking, we can say that even if the LCA project is cancelled tomorrow morning, it is still a success. it is because of the LCA project that we are able to upgrade all our legacy aircrafts like mig-27's, that we can confidently approach the PAKFA as a contributor and even think of developing a 5gen fighter.
> 
> in hindsight, IMHO, we chose correctly, even if the project management wasn't always as expected.if we chose the other route we would now be testing a 3.5 gen fighter and dreaming of making a 4gen next, not a 5gen.



Besides what Karthic Sri said

True we took the right choice for a project with potential, but the way we choose to do it was wrong!
Just as you said there were enough fields where we knew very little about, so we should have focused on them, while getting off the shelf parts in fields where we had no idea. Radar for example, Zhuk ME, or Elta 2032 of the shelf, or if possible a co-development with them, would have reduced the delays by a good part, not to mention if we had a partner in Kaveri development from the start. 
That's what I meant, we took the more difficult ways, instead of these obviously easier once and that's where the development went to trouble and imo we still doing it with choosing less experienced partners.

Btw I don't agree with you that even if we cancel LCA now, it would be a success, because all the developments and money would be lost for nothing! It would be clearly too much just to get experience to upgrade some older fighters and way too less to be useful for NG fighter developments. So far we learned nothing from this development, because we have nothing else then some prototypes, but this development was about developing an fighter for operational service, not a tech demonstrator only. That's why I keep saying focus on LCA MK2 and further developments of it, forget about AMCA now, because we have to master 4. and 4.5 gen techs first. This is not done by testflying some prototypes only, but through years of operational service of several squads.
The potential is there, but it's on us to get it out of LCA!


----------



## Trisonics

he Russian designers stared transfixed at the monitor as the model of Indias Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) went into a spin, rotating like a fan uncontrollably. Despite every attempt to straighten it out with the aircraft controls, the Sitara kept spinning. If this had been a real flight, rather than just a spin tunnel test in Russia, both pilots in the Sitara would have died as the uncontrollable trainer smashed into the ground.

Instead, Indian designers at the Aircraft R&D Centre (ARDC) in Bangalore  which is designing and testing the Sitara  have tweaked the Sitaras aerodynamics until it has passed the spin tunnel test.



But now, Chief Test Pilot Baldev Singh has to actually test-fly the Sitara, deliberately throwing the trainer into a hair-raising spin and then coaxing it into level flight again.

Only after that can the Indian Air Force use the Sitara to teach rookie pilots the vital skills needed to recover an aircraft from a spin. During training, IAF instructors will put the IJT into a spin and then hand over controls to the trainee, allowing him or her to stabilise the aircraft.

These are literally testing times at the ARDC, a unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is preparing for several risky test flights that will determine the success or failure of its key projects.

Although the Sitara has cleared the spin tunnel test in Russia, that is no guarantee that the Sitara will recover from its first real life spin. Therefore, to minimise the risk to the test pilot, a special parachute is being fitted on the aircrafts tail, which the pilot opens if he is unable to recover from a spin. Acting as an aerodynamic drag, the parachute retards the spin, allowing the pilot to recover control.

There are always uncertainties in testing something for the first time, explains HRS Prasad, the general manager of ARDC. So we make doubly sure there is a system that will enable (the pilot) to recover from a potentially disastrous situation. But we are confident of demonstrating that the Sitara can recover from a spin that is a basic requirement for a trainer.
*
Even more dangerous are the flight tests ahead for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), to demonstrate its ability to handle higher angles of attack, or Alpha, as the designers call it. Simply put, a flying aircrafts angle of attack is the angle it makes, nose to tail, with the horizontal. A high Alpha provides several benefits to a fighter, especially letting it fly slower to land on shorter runways.*

The Tejas has currently tested an Alpha of just 22-24 degrees, and will go up gradually to 28 degrees. But flying a higher Alpha risks stalling the fighter; its engine could go off (or flame out, as pilots call it) leaving the Tejas, without propulsion power, or electrical and hydraulic power for its fly-by-wire controls, to fall out of the sky like a stone.

To guard against that, the ARDC is fitting a test Tejas with a fast-response power pack that US company, Honeywell, manufactures for such flight-testing. Within milliseconds of the Tejas main engine going off, the hydrogen-operated power pack starts up, providing power to the fighters hydraulic and electrical systems, and re-lighting the main engine.

In flying a single-engine aircraft, there is no bigger emergency than a flame-out, says a former Tejas test pilot. But no fighter engine should flame out at just 28 degrees Alpha. However, the Tejas air intakes have not been well designed and, as the Alpha increases, the intakes constrict the airflow, and the engine dies for want of air.

In contrast to the Tejas maximum Alpha of 28 degrees, Indias Sukhoi-30MKI can comfortably handle an Alpha of over 50 degrees. The US Navy F/A-18 Super Hornet can manage an Alpha of 58 degrees.

The Tejas flight test programme, Indias first such testing process, has been controversial, with critics charging that the slow speed of testing has delayed the Tejas induction into service. *On the positive side, the Tejas testing has given birth to the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), a test facility that is of global standard. The Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas development, has now engaged European aerospace giant, EADS, to advise on how to speed up testing.*

We have to proceed cautiously, the Tejas programme director, PS Subramaniam told Business Standard, while witnessing a test last year. We have managed to come so far without a single mishap. An accident would seriously damage the credibility of the Tejas programme.

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 AM ----------

LSP 4 Video ..HQ

http://www.ada.gov.in/LSP4.wmv

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## gogbot

First Drawbacks of the LCA tejas , 

low Angle of Attack.

Can only mange about 20 degree's

this has been attributed to poorly designed Air Intakes, If TVC is ever to be Installed , they have to be re-designed.

This could also mean no TVC , Meaning new engine will be the GE-414


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## sudhir007

NICE TAKE OF PICTURE OF LCA

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## CONNAN

*BY EDITOR AT 27 JULY, 2010, 1:34 AM
Note: Vinayak shetty is admin of www.lca-tejas.org had also has his own blog at Point blank
BY: Vinayak shetty*

In a busy Hangar in Hal complex a lone Tejas Pv-1 in the corner of the Hanger waits for Integration with the Kaveri engine , mating should have taken place a decade ago but delays in kaveri engine by GTRE only delayed the whole event , this also shows how off track whole Kaveri engine Project really is .

PV-1 has been pulled out of the current rigorous Tejas Test program since it no longer has all the new avionics equipments and its subsystems , nor does it has weapons integrated to carry out weapons testing ,but it will not join the fate of TD-1 and TD-2 where both have been dismantled and usable parts already been removed from the aircraft and waits it last resting place neither in a museum or a IAF Base .

Efforts are on to integrate Kaveri engine to its airframe , PV-1 is the only aircraft which was designed keeping Kaveri engine in mind , but it flew with American Ge engine , it still needs a lot of rework on its fuel lines and also on plumping systems ,so does LRU in the aircraft, Tejas LSP aircrafts have gone lot of changes recently to match LSP , PV-1 will also require number of changes to its mission computer and software .

Sources close to www.lca-tejas.org have told us that PV-1 up gradation and rework may delay the whole integration of Kaveri engine , HAL engineers are also working on possibility of integrating it with Tejas LSP-1 which is a newer airframe and has better equipment on-board then Pv-1 .

Which aircraft will take the honor will be decided soon and Kaveri engine will fly on board a Tejas Air frame by early 2011 or some time later in the year

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## jha

An interesting comparison..






*Tejas Mk2 is assumed to have the GE F414 engine. The other options are the GE F414 Enhanced Performance Engine or the EJ200 Thrust Vectored Engine. In any of the cases, the basic performance characteristics are expected to be similar.*
courtesy - pogularrocky


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## soaringphnx

jha said:


> An interesting comparison..



Will the Tejas really have a top speed of Mach 2.2? It seems highly unlikely to me.


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## jha

Some points are worth to be noted- 

F-114EPE will have dry thrust of 70 KN and Max. thrust of 116KN. will further enhance its TWR...
however i am not sure about SC capability ...
Service ceiling is 16.5 km...not the best but certainly not worst..
Combat radius is best..
Max. speed at Mach. 2.2 is doubtful..


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## flanker143

@ jha ji

i too pointed out fe 414'EPE' a while ago for tejas mk2 but a senior member said that such high thrust would be an 'overkill' for tejas ...... 

so he said that tejas will be getting fe414 but not the EPE version if it gets selected....

the chart says that tejas mk2 will have a combat "radius" of 1200 km which also I highly doubt....

sorry to say guys i am also a little disappointed with the payload = 3.4tns


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## sancho

jha said:


> An interesting comparison..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tejas Mk2 is assumed to have the GE F414 engine. The other options are the GE F414 Enhanced Performance Engine or the EJ200 Thrust Vectored Engine. In any of the cases, the basic performance characteristics are expected to be similar.*
> courtesy - pogularrocky



Again not really reliable, because of several mistakes! The fact that they rate LCA, assumed with the same GE 414 engine as Gripen, with a lower T/W ratio although LCA is nearly 1.5t lighter, shows that they don't compare with correct specs here.


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## KEETARP

Jha ji . What BR guys are smoking these days 

Apart from what Sancho says about LCA 
MRCA chart had f16 as 30mill , now it has 45mill . 
And this guy has very far seeing eyes - GE engine confirmed .


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## flanker143

i got this ques again that- *if GE engine is selected will we be getting the fe414 EPE or not ???*

thanks in advance......


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## KEETARP

No , 
Negotiations are for Ge414 & EJ-2000 ( No EPE on 414 + no TVC on EJ2000).


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## Dash

PRATEEK said:


> No ,
> Negotiations are for Ge414 & EJ-2000 ( No EPE on 414 + no TVC on EJ2000).


I think the GE FPE is only on offer for MRCA super hornet....
But that also is not a gurantee, is it?


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## flanker143

so no 26000lbf thrust for tejasmk2 ..... sigh.. i was hoping too much with new engine issue.....


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> I think the GE FPE is only on offer for MRCA super hornet....
> But that also is not a gurantee, is it?



That's true only for MMRCA as part of F18E ( even Gripen NG wont have EPE )

But IAF has asked for this thing separately . 
So we get 3 things as a prime in MRCA to win 

- Separate weather mode on AESA
- 1773 Fibre optic buses instead of 1553 ( Sad for Russians)
- An optimum T/W ratio


----------



## Dash

PRATEEK said:


> That's true only for MMRCA as part of F18E ( even Gripen NG wont have EPE )
> 
> But IAF has asked for this thing separately .
> So we get 3 things as a prime in MRCA to win
> 
> - Separate weather mode on AESA
> - 1773 Fibre optic buses instead of 1553 ( Sad for Russians)
> - An optimum T/W ratio


looks like Boeing knew that its aircraft wasnt that agile, so they offered this engine for the contract. After this engine F-18 will be a better aircraft for sure.

The seperate weather mode we are talking about here was only asked from F-16 IN I guess or to all?...

Even Rafale runs on Mil 1553 busses dont they?


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## KEETARP

> The seperate weather mode we are talking about here was only asked from F-16 IN I guess or to all?...



No from all companies 
Boeing tried to play tricks with NAVFLIR Blah Blah . 
But IAF was absolutely sure they want an All weather , Day & Night , 
SAR imaging , 
Sea mapping , Sea Surface Search
Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) mapping
Ground Moving Target Identification and Track (GMTI/T)
Terrain following and avoidance modes to form 3D radar map
Electronic Jamming (optional)

in AESA right from start 





> Even Rafale runs on Mil 1553 busses dont they?



Yup last I read , four to six Mil-Std-1553B databuses and one optical STANAG 3910 databus forms Rafale's architecture . 

Only MIG and RAFALE have those 1553 , rest all have moved to fibre-optic .

I hope for LCA-mk2 we get Fly-by-Light and 1773 avionics buses . Infact handling suddenly appears crisp and more responsive by Fibe-optic transmission - as told by some ???????? you know


----------



## kish

sudhir007 said:


> NICE TAKE OF PICTURE OF LCA



nice pics thanks ,,,
when it took to the sky first time,,
what abt radar of lca ,, i have less knowledge about it


----------



## kish

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *BY EDITOR AT 27 JULY, 2010, 1:34 AM
> Note: Vinayak shetty is admin of www.lca-tejas.org had also has his own blog at Point blank
> BY: Vinayak shetty*
> 
> In a busy Hangar in Hal complex a lone Tejas Pv-1 in the corner of the Hanger waits for Integration with the Kaveri engine , mating should have taken place a decade ago but delays in kaveri engine by GTRE only delayed the whole event , this also shows how off track whole Kaveri engine Project really is .
> 
> PV-1 has been pulled out of the current rigorous Tejas Test program since it no longer has all the new avionics equipments and its subsystems , nor does it has weapons integrated to carry out weapons testing ,but it will not join the fate of TD-1 and TD-2 where both have been dismantled and usable parts already been removed from the aircraft and waits it last resting place neither in a museum or a IAF Base .
> 
> Efforts are on to integrate Kaveri engine to its airframe , PV-1 is the only aircraft which was designed keeping Kaveri engine in mind , but it flew with American Ge engine , it still needs a lot of rework on its fuel lines and also on plumping systems ,so does LRU in the aircraft, Tejas LSP aircrafts have gone lot of changes recently to match LSP , PV-1 will also require number of changes to its mission computer and software .
> 
> Sources close to www.lca-tejas.org have told us that PV-1 up gradation and rework may delay the whole integration of Kaveri engine , HAL engineers are also working on possibility of integrating it with Tejas LSP-1 which is a newer airframe and has better equipment on-board then Pv-1 .
> 
> Which aircraft will take the honor will be decided soon and Kaveri engine will fly on board a Tejas Air frame by early 2011 or some time later in the year



what about high atttude test on kaveri ,,, is it ready to took lca in sky.


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## kish

jha said:


> An interesting comparison..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tejas Mk2 is assumed to have the GE F414 engine. The other options are the GE F414 Enhanced Performance Engine or the EJ200 Thrust Vectored Engine. In any of the cases, the basic performance characteristics are expected to be similar.*
> courtesy - pogularrocky



f 16 and f 2a are of the same class fighter and developed from same base,, is it ok to put them in seperate section ... correct me if i m wrong ,,


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## BATMAN

^^My suggestion is to take LCA out of this list, for the reason you mentioned and for the reason it will never be complete.


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## anathema

BATMAN said:


> ^^My suggestion is to take LCA out of this list, for the reason you mentioned and for the reason it will never be complete.



Be Patient -- Patience has its own rewards !

JF didnt materialize over-night (it may have for Pakistan but not for chinese)..it was years and years of hardwork -- albeit two decades of hard work..so wait n watch and enjoy your pop corn.

Mark my words -- The learning curve will be immense -- you will see rapid improvements in time lines when it comes MK2.

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## Indian-Devil

BATMAN said:


> ^^My suggestion is to take LCA out of this list, for the reason you mentioned and for the reason it will never be complete.



You are so sure what will be completed and what will not ?? If someone compare JF-17 kind of AC with Su-30Mki then many guys here can give so many days long speeches without checking their these AC class and capabilities, But if one AC is placed in some list of single ACs then you have so much concerns ?? Take a chill buddy


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## sancho

Hey guys, I posted pics of the new CFTs with integrated refuelling system, from the F16IN in the MMRCA thread ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/1030723-post2358.html ). If I'm not wrong these were the one that HAL co-developed and while looking at those pics, I asked myself if such a solution wouldn't be a good idea for LCA too?
LCA is very small and has only limited internal space for new systems, so wouldn't similar CFTs with integrated refueling system would be useful for LCA too, instead of integrating an refuelling system into the fighter itself? Carrying less external fuel tanks, makes stations free for more weapons and would reduce the RCS too, which are other additional advantages.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Hey guys, I posted pics of the new CFTs with integrated refuelling system, from the F16IN in the MMRCA thread ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/1030723-post2358.html ). If I'm not wrong these were the one that HAL co-developed and while looking at those pics, I asked myself if such a solution wouldn't be a good idea for LCA too?
> LCA is very small and has only limited internal space for new systems, so wouldn't similar CFTs with integrated refueling system would be useful for LCA too, instead of integrating an refuelling system into the fighter itself? Carrying less external fuel tanks, makes stations free for more weapons and would reduce the RCS too, which are other additional advantages.



Nice thought !! But doesnt this mean if we were to deattach CFT's then there would be no way refuel LCA in flight ?

Also in a fight the first thing a fighter pilot does is to dump the tanks -- how will this work with CFT (even if he can dumo fuel - the weight penalty will still be there) ? LCA as is under powered -- 414 would just about make it respectable !


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## KEETARP

Ok guys , stop your horses 

LCA will have IFR , but 

ADA design has this in plan












No CFT, No retractable probe . I know its good idea to have retractable but time being ......

We did similar treatment to Jaguar as well -


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## anathema

Prateek - ^^ wont this contribute to RCS ? But i guess it really doesnt matter .


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## CONNAN

why people dont design some thing that is retractable


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## SpArK

connanxlrc1000 said:


> why people dont design some thing that is retractable



Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe | AVIATION WEEK

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## sancho

anathema said:


> Nice thought !! But doesnt this mean if we were to deattach CFT's then there would be no way refuel LCA in flight ?
> 
> Also in a fight the first thing a fighter pilot does is to dump the tanks -- how will this work with CFT (even if he can dumo fuel - the weight penalty will still be there) ? LCA as is under powered -- 414 would just about make it respectable !



Yes, I guess the aim with the new CFTs at F16IN will be to use them all the time and jetison the other fuel tanks only. 
They jetission the fuel tanks, to have less weight and more over less drag, that would be counterproductive in air combats right? But CFTs, directly attached to the airframe has less drag than fuel tanks fitted on the wings and according to this interesting article about F16 Sufas, also less weight:



> ...The bumps over the wing on both sides of the plane are conformal fuel tanks. Use of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) extends the F-16's effective mission range/loiter time up to 50 percent, depending on the mission profile. *CFTs can be used for both air-to-ground and air-to-air missions.* They can be easily removed. They also increase weapon payloads by freeing-up additional store stations. The baseline F-16 has a combat radius of 740 nm (1,370 km) with two 2,000-lb bombs and two AIM-9, with 1,040 US gal external tanks.
> 
> The Block 52/60 F-16 aircraft procured by Israel, Greece and the UAE have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT). Attached to the upper surface of the F-16s fuselage, the tanks lower surface conform to the aircraft's shape. *This arrangement allows the CFTs to be relatively light weight, since nothing is suspended from them. With an empty weight of 900 pounds, tank set holds 450 gallons (about 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8 fuel. A CFT set carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, with only 12 percent of the drag.* The CFT can dramatically increase the operational radius of the aircraft for long range missions. The aircraft can fly a long range strike mission with full weapon's load, and engage in air combat when external (370 Gal) fuel tanks have been dropped. The CFT, along with external 370 gallon jetissonable tanks or 600 gallon non-jetissonable external tanks are added with the CFT, provides the F-16 with a 60-70 percent increase in operational radius. *At subsonic speeds the CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, thought the drag increases in proportion to speed at supersonic speeds. The aircraft fitted with CFT retain nearly the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature.* The CFT set can be fitted or removed in less than two hours. The tanks are are built under the Peace Marble V program by IAI as a sole source to Lockheed Martin's specification.
> Lockheed Martin began F-16 flight demonstration of an initial CFT shape in 1994 to investigate performance and handling quality characteristics. Subsequent wind tunnel testing led to the current external lines, *which were initially validated in flight testing of high angle-of-attack handling characteristics* at Edwards AFB, CA. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company completed the first phase of flight testing of its new conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for its F-16 multirole fighter in September 2001. Flight testing with aerodynamic shapes was conducted on an F-16C at Eglin Air Force Base, FL, from March through August. A total of 24 test flights and 65 flight test hours were accomplished, and testing involved loads, flutter, and stability and control...



F-16I Sufa (Storm)


I think that's why the US adds CFTs to any not stealth fighter now, F16 B52 onwards, F15 has them and will soon have the improved versions with integrated weapon bay and now even the F18SH seems to get them. Same from the European fighters, Rafale already has developed and tested, but not integrated them and the the EF might get them with the next upgrades too. 

Regarding LCA beeing underpowered, imo with the latest weight reductions and EJ 200, or GE 414 engine, thrust is not the problem. The key will be the airflow through the air intakes, which many people thinks is the real problem at the moment. However, that's a different topic.




BENNY said:


> Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe | AVIATION WEEK



From the article:



> We will develop and design a retractable refueling probe, Griffiths says. LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ... Unfortunately, were later in the design period.



And that's exactly what I meant, it will be difficult to develop a retractable version with so less space in LCA, but integrated in CFTs would solve that problem.


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## flanker143

well after so much discussion the main point is ........ will there be cfts for lca mk2 ???


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## jha

*Unmanned combat Tejas: Step forward or Backward?​*

History of Unmanned combat air vehicles can be traced back to 1960s when US developed unmanned Helicopters which were capable of launching Torpedoes were deployed in US Naval Destroyers, since then lot of new technological changes and development of Nano technology with small amount of success in Artificial intelligent have forced many in Aviation circle to think head of time, in fact F-35 fighter aircraft is already called Last Manned Fighter Aircraft to be inducted in US Forces.

Recently development of unmanned combat air vehicle based on Tejas combat aircraft has been a buzz in Indian media circle, DRDO wants to work on this concept 10 years down the line when R&D of Tejas MK-II is finished and it hits production. While the concept seems to be a really new and challenging but Defence forces around the world are not moving in that direction, Technology is not new and in past many fighter jets mostly for testing purpose have been Â flown remotely. But mostly these manned fighters where never turned into unmanned fighter aircrafts in large numbers due to limitations which Aircraft designers have already put into the airframe while developing them keep humans in mind.

Countries like United States, Israel and many in Europe and Asia are developing Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) based on Stealthier Airframe design and with high level of Artificial intelligence in them. Where these Combat air vehicles will be able to stay in air for longer time and complete their missions autonomously with little Human inputs. Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) will have better weapons payload, better range and better maneuverability since Human physical limits will not be a factor in aircrafts airframe design.

DRDO lately started development of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) which will be used for Reconnaissance, Target accusations and for spying activity which mostly will be remotely piloted Drones, but if DRDO wants to work on Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) 10 years down the line then they better shift their focus on new concept and design and work to develop a new Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) completely from start and not be based on an existing manned fighter. R&D can be based on a Tejas platform but it cannot be considered as a UCAV platform itself. Russian Mig Corporation has been working on Mig-skat concept of their Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) and china has already materialized some concepts of their UCAV which have been displayed in recently held Air shows in china.

DRDO and Indian Air force might have not Abandoned manned fighter aircrafts yet and are still going on and developing Manned 5th Generation fighter aircraft called AMCA but Indian air force can ill afford to ignore UCAV platforms for long time and small development on this concept should also initiated in India.


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> well after so much discussion the main point is ........ will there be cfts for lca mk2 ???



It was never reported, I just aked about it, because the co-development between LM and HAL. As Prateek pointed out the early plans were about fixed refuelling probe, but now retractable seems to be on offer too, so anything is possible.


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## CONNAN

*Kaveri engine on path to become flight worthy
BY ADMIN AT 3 AUGUST, 2010, 1:46 AM*
*BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK*

Defence minister yesterday in parliament declared that GTRE has successfully carried out Altitude testing where Kaveri K-9 under belly of IL-76 aircraft carried out different engine performance simulation at various altitude and second part of testing will see that working engine from IL-76 will be replaced by Kaveri K-9 engine and this engine will actually power the aircraft .

Tests have been conducted currently at at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia, on a IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) ,after this trials are successfully , GTRE will integrate the kaveri engine with a Tejas Air frame (Mostly likely PV-1) and plans to have its first test flight by end of 2010 or early 2011.


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## flanker143

> Kaveri engine on path to become flight worthy
> BY ADMIN AT 3 AUGUST, 2010, 1:46 AM
> BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
> 
> Defence minister yesterday in parliament declared that GTRE has successfully carried out Altitude testing where Kaveri K-9 under belly of IL-76 aircraft carried out different engine performance simulation at various altitude and second part of testing will see that working engine from IL-76 will be replaced by Kaveri K-9 engine and this engine will actually power the aircraft .
> 
> Tests have been conducted currently at at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia, on a IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) ,after this trials are successfully , GTRE will integrate the kaveri engine with a Tejas Air frame (Mostly likely PV-1) and plans to have its first test flight by end of 2010 or early 2011.



but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....


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## anathema

flanker143 said:


> but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....



It provides better thrust than 404 but less than 414 -- so there is some advantage --


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## CONNAN

flanker143 said:


> but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....



well atleast we can use it for advanced jet trainers in a worst case senario


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## flanker143

> well atleast we can use it for advanced jet trainers in a worst case senario



its also possible that we might use it in amca in future....


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## Dash

I am not able to understand one thing here. The issue with Kaveri wasnt the thurst, The issue was it was throwing fan blades. So they have managed to curb it down now. 

They want to do the flight testing in coming time, what will Snechma do here?, if they increase the thurst of kaveri which they were supposed to do, then they will do the flight testing again with Tejas...

Is this a feasible idea?


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## satishkumarcsc

Dash said:


> I am not able to understand one thing here. The issue with Kaveri wasnt the thurst, The issue was it was throwing fan blades. So they have managed to curb it down now.
> 
> They want to do the flight testing in coming time, what will Snechma do here?, if they increase the thurst of kaveri which they were supposed to do, then they will do the flight testing again with Tejas...
> 
> Is this a feasible idea?



First it was the problem of the engine throwing blades but when this had been fixed a new problem emerged....That was the climb performance of the LCA was not upto the mark and the IAF decided it needed an higher thrust engine. So this led to the de-linking of the Kaveri from the LCA program in the late 2008.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I am not able to understand one thing here. The issue with Kaveri wasnt the thurst, The issue was it was throwing fan blades. So they have managed to curb it down now.
> 
> They want to do the flight testing in coming time, what will Snechma do here?, if they increase the thurst of kaveri which they were supposed to do, then they will do the flight testing again with Tejas...
> 
> Is this a feasible idea?



Thrust was in issue too, because it didn't met the requirements to be used in MK2, that's why the engine competition was needed. The Kaveri-Snecma co-development is (AFAIK) not cleared so far, the last reports said that we show some interest in it again. But of course, it will be a new engine with several changes, so it will need new flight test.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Thrust was in issue too, because it didn't met the requirements to be used in MK2, that's why the engine competition was needed. The Kaveri-Snecma co-development is (AFAIK) not cleared so far, the last reports said that we show some interest in it again. But of course, it will be a new engine with several changes, so it will need new flight test.


But Sancho, if you see the thurst of Kaveri, its almost equal to Ge404, what is being in use now. I would say its a still a thurst problem coz IAF wanted a higher thurst engine.

Then the issue with Fan blades, now that seems to have gone.

So as of now it looks like that GTRE is focused in making this engine happen with flight tests in schedule, which is a good thing.

The bad thing what I can sense here is what if they dont achive the thurst again, what if they decide to go with Snechma and then its becomes a new engine, then again fflight tests will be a waste of time...

I mean something is wrong here.
As of now we dont even have any information that Kaveri has increased its thurst, so what about the flight tests now, and what if you change it later...???


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## satishkumarcsc

Dash said:


> But Sancho, if you see the thurst of Kaveri, its almost equal to Ge404, what is being in use now. I would say its a still a thurst problem coz IAF wanted a higher thurst engine.
> 
> Then the issue with Fan blades, now that seems to have gone.
> 
> So as of now it looks like that GTRE is focused in making this engine happen with flight tests in schedule, which is a good thing.
> 
> The bad thing what I can sense here is what if they dont achive the thurst again, what if they decide to go with Snechma and then its becomes a new engine, then again fflight tests will be a waste of time...
> 
> I mean something is wrong here.
> As of now we dont even have any information that Kaveri has increased its thurst, so what about the flight tests now, and what if you change it later...???



Dash. No need to worry. The Kaveri has been delinked from the LCA project. They want to make sure that the engine works properly. once the engine is a success Snecma has offered us to integrate their M 88 core with the Kaveri replacing our Kabini core and to be produced in India as they are running short of funds. Snecma officials think that the M88 core being lighter will give the Kaveri more thrust to weight ratio and the costs for developing the M88-3 will be reduced.

Right now Kaveri is headed in the right direction. Now it must get its flight worthiness test solved and integrated to the PV1.


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## Dash

satishkumarcsc said:


> Dash. No need to worry. The Kaveri has been delinked from the LCA project. They want to make sure that the engine works properly. once the engine is a success Snecma has offered us to integrate their M 88 core with the Kaveri replacing our Kabini core and to be produced in India as they are running short of funds. Snecma officials think that the M88 core being lighter will give the Kaveri more thrust to weight ratio and the costs for developing the M88-3 will be reduced.
> 
> Right now Kaveri is headed in the right direction. Now it must get its flight worthiness test solved and integrated to the PV1.


I know Satis -

the point here is its probably not going in the right direction.
Either you work on thurst yourself and dont take Snechma's help
or take Snechma's help in developing it earlier.

The point is why do we have to speculate here?.
This project is certainly not predictable and measurable.


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## sudhir007

satishkumarcsc said:


> Dash. No need to worry. The Kaveri has been delinked from the LCA project. They want to make sure that the engine works properly. once the engine is a success Snecma has offered us to integrate their M 88 core with the Kaveri replacing our Kabini core and to be produced in India as they are running short of funds. Snecma officials think that the M88 core being lighter will give the Kaveri more thrust to weight ratio and the costs for developing the M88-3 will be reduced.
> 
> Right now Kaveri is headed in the right direction. Now it must get its flight worthiness test solved and integrated to the PV1.



So as per your comment Rafale will win the MRCA deal. Also we can start testing our AMCA with kaveri engine too


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## satishkumarcsc

Dash said:


> I know Satis -
> 
> the point here is its probably not going in the right direction.
> Either you work on thurst yourself and dont take Snechma's help
> or take Snechma's help in developing it earlier.
> 
> The point is why do we have to speculate here?.
> This project is certainly not predictable and measurable.



It is going in the right direction as we first need to evaluate the engine. Then it would be viable for us bring in Snecma. If the engine itself is failed then there is no use in integrating the Snecma core.


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## satishkumarcsc

sudhir007 said:


> So as per your comment Rafale will win the MRCA deal. Also we can start testing our AMCA with kaveri engine too



Deep down I wish Rafale will win the MMRCA competition. But Snecma is doing it for themselves making the M 88 a JV between France and India. This might be the best option for them to bring down the costs.


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## Dash

satishkumarcsc said:


> Deep down I wish Rafale will win the MMRCA competition. But Snecma is doing it for themselves making the M 88 a JV between France and India. This might be the best option for them to bring down the costs.


No Satish -

France already coming with F4 for M-88 with Saudi Arab. They are funding the JV to enable kaveri to 95-100 Kn of thurst. They havent waited for India to do that.

Even i thought the same but something like that is not happening.
Kaveri is not even linked to MRCA, but MRCA winner will have some impact on kaveri for sure.


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## satishkumarcsc

Dash said:


> No Satish -
> 
> France already coming with F4 for M-88 with Saudi Arab. They are funding the JV to enable kaveri to 95-100 Kn of thurst. They havent waited for India to do that.
> 
> Even i thought the same but something like that is not happening.
> Kaveri is not even linked to MRCA, but MRCA winner will have some impact on kaveri for sure.



That means one thing...we are paying Snecma to gget Kaveri Running just like the SHakthi engine.


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## Trisonics

Dash said:


> I know Satis -
> 
> the point here is its probably not going in the right direction.
> Either you work on thurst yourself and dont take Snechma's help
> or take Snechma's help in developing it earlier.
> 
> The point is why do we have to speculate here?.
> This project is certainly not predictable and measurable.



Dash, the issues are not exactly thrust but the engine itself!!! regardless of the thrust, the bare essentials for an engine is reliability and efficiency. As many of the articles above pointed out, we do not have any basic testing facilities, Apart from the obvious tests, we may not even know what other key tests need to be done..what kaveri has done or will do, if successful or not, will give India immense knowledge and an established protocol for dos and dont's...

Once we have that established, we can further work on compression and efficiency to increase thrust..for starters we need an engine that can be trusted and flown with no problems..Kaveri in my view is even more important than tejas itself!


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## sancho

Dash said:


> But Sancho, if you see the thurst of Kaveri, its almost equal to Ge404, what is being in use now. I would say its a still a thurst problem coz IAF wanted a higher thurst engine.
> 
> Then the issue with Fan blades, now that seems to have gone.
> 
> So as of now it looks like that GTRE is focused in making this engine happen with flight tests in schedule, which is a good thing.
> 
> The bad thing what I can sense here is what if they dont achive the thurst again, what if they decide to go with Snechma and then its becomes a new engine, then again fflight tests will be a waste of time...
> 
> I mean something is wrong here.
> As of now we dont even have any information that Kaveri has increased its thurst, so what about the flight tests now, and what if you change it later...???




No, Kaveri is reported with an AB thrust of 81kN, the GE 404 in LCA MK1 offers 85kN and even for the LCA MK1 which is said to be underpowered, it wouldn't be sufficiant enough at the moment, let alone mature. But to be mature the Kaveri must be tested, just like we test the LCA prototypes now too.
We might not use it in IAF LCAs, but don't forget that it could be offered for LCA MK1 export customers, instead of an US engine and by the fact that this is the first engine development, any type of experience we can get is valuable for us.

Personally I think, especially by the fact that LCA is a single engine fighter and any problems with the engine could result in a crash of the fighter, we must focus on high reliability of the engine, be it a foreign one, or our Kaveri engine. That's why it's a good decision to go for a proven foreign engine, while further developing the base Kaveri and maybe going for a co-development with Snecma. 



Dash said:


> No Satish -
> 
> France already coming with F4 for M-88 with Saudi Arab. They are funding the JV to enable kaveri to 95-100 Kn of thurst. They havent waited for India to do that.
> 
> Even i thought the same but something like that is not happening.
> Kaveri is not even linked to MRCA, but MRCA winner will have some impact on kaveri for sure.



I guess you meant UAE and not Saudi, apart from that Satish was not completelly wrong. If we had agreed in the past for the Kaveri co-development, France had used the funds from us to develop the M88-3 for them too. However, it would have been a win win situation, because both countries would get their own 90kN engine.
Now that UAE wants higher thrust too, the French have 2 options and don't have to wait for our decision. They most likely will get half of the funds from UAE and can concentrate on their own engine and integration into Rafale.

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## Choppers

*Top LCA-Navy Team In Russia For Talks*​
A high-level naval delegation from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)  the government makers of Indias much-anticipated Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Navy)  is currently in Russia for contract negotiations and issues related to the programs shore-based test facility (SBTF).

A senior official from the Defense Research &amp; Development Organization (DRDO) told AVIATION WEEK that the team is being lead by Satish Babu, the financial advisor to DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat, who is also ADAs director general. LCA Navy Program Director C.D. Balaji is also on the ADA team.

The team is currently holding contract negotiations with Russias Rosoboronesport. The talks are mainly revolving around SBTF, thats coming up at the Naval Air Station, Goa, to flight-test LCA naval variants, the official said.

A naval prototype of LCA-Navy was officially rolled out by Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony on July 6. The SBTF would be the Indian Navys first such facility.

*Building the SBTF in Goa is a huge technological challenge for ADA and the Indian Navy, and Russian help is critical. It will have to be an exact ship-on-the-shore facility based on Indias Indigenous Aircraft Carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard*, the official said. The measurements are the same as IAC and it must have all equipment to simulate an aircraft carrier with ski-jump and arrested recovery. Hence, the current project review being undertaken with the Russians is crucial in many ways.

The SBTF is critical to the program because ADA will be conducting carrier suitability tests for LCA-Navy in Goa after the initial flight trials for the current two prototypes are completed in Bengaluru. *ADA hopes to have the ramp for the takeoff area ready by the end of 2011 and the landing area completed by 2012. A full-fledged telemetry unit is also being constructed in Goa as part of SBTF*.

Top LCA-Navy Team In Russia For Talks | AVIATION WEEK


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## jha

*LSP-5 gears up for first flight *

ADA and HAL is all geared up to conduct first flight of LSP-5 and as per source ,ground runs are been carried out and first flight is expected by mid or second last week of this month , LSP-5 will be carrying new layout of the cockpit as per suggestions from the pilots who have been flying them and it also will be carrying Radio aid which will be used for Weapons Testing.

LSP-5 will have all integrated sensors that includes having night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot , this will be third LSP Tejas to be rolled out of HAL Complex this year , in April this year LSP-3 with MMR radar was rolled out making it first Tejas to have an on-board radar .

HAL is also working to complete LSP-6 and have its first flight by end of this year LSP-6 will be used to further explore Angle of Attack (AOA) and also do minor improvements to its airframe , as per unconfirmed information provided by source to www.lca-tejas.org LSP-6 will also be a Test bed aircraft to incorporate newer avionics and other subsystems which will be developed for Tejas Mk-2 ,we have to still verify this claim from multiple sources .


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## flanker143

New Delhi: The DRDO-made 'Kaveri' engine could not be integrated with the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) but it has provided a platform for the development of gas turbine engine technology in the country, Lok Sabha was informed today. 

"Though the Kaveri engine was not fully meeting the requirement of LCA 'Tejas', it provided a platform for gas turbine technology development in India," Defence Minister A K Antony said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha. 



The design and development of Kaveri was sanctioned for the LCA 'Tejas' fighter aircraft programme. 

Talking about the milestones achieved by the engine project, the Minister said DRDO has tied up with a Russian scientific organisation Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) for fine-tuning of the Kaveri engine's performance. 

"This association brought the project in higher platform, resulting in successful completion of one major milestone of altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No," he added. 

Antony said that one of engine prototypes 'K9' is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia for ground and test bed trials.


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## Dash

@ Sancho -



> Personally I think, especially by the fact that LCA is a single engine fighter and any problems with the engine could result in a crash of the fighter, we must focus on high reliability of the engine, be it a foreign one, or our Kaveri engine. That's why it's a good decision to go for a proven foreign engine, while further developing the base Kaveri and maybe going for a co-development with Snecma.



This I agree and I know how stupid it is to go with Kaveri with LCA for teh time being regardless of thurst or not...



> I guess you meant UAE and not Saudi, apart from that Satish was not completelly wrong. If we had agreed in the past for the Kaveri co-development, France had used the funds from us to develop the M88-3 for them too. However, it would have been a win win situation, because both countries would get their own 90kN engine.



yes, My bad, its UAE, but there were no such plans actually and no body even thought about it. But that option is gone. 

What I wanted to say here is -

What testing are they doing and do they have any planes to increase the thurst?, Is Snechma coming to rescue the old scientists here?..or they think they will keep testing on teh reliability and thurst will increase itself??...

@Trisonics -

You can understand my point now. I just wanted to know who is doing what?


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> yes, My bad, its UAE, but there were no such plans actually and no body even thought about it. But that option is gone.



It was offered from the French for LCA MK2 and for Rafale and I guess the latter option is still available and a big advantage imo.



Dash said:


> What I wanted to say here is -
> 
> What testing are they doing and do they have any planes to increase the thurst?, Is Snechma coming to rescue the old scientists here?..or they think they will keep testing on teh reliability and thurst will increase itself??...



Not sure, but of course they won't just sit and wait for the deal with the French. They will try to sort problems out, or improve the basic engine, which is part of the learning stage for our engineers as well as part of maturing Kaveri techs.
There are plans to use derivates of it for other aircrafts, or even naval vessels, so the basic development has to go on.


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## flanker143

PIB Press Release

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is yet to become operational. Being a development project, it needed to incorporate a number of new technologies and systems. *The schedule date for initial operational clearance is December, 2010*. The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has received an order from the Indian Air Force for supply of 20 such aircraft. The supply is planned to commence from 2011-2012 and _*is likely to be completed by 2013-2014.*_ 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri AT Nana Patil and others in Lok Sabha today.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha

*China/India discuss LCA project[​*
KUDOS TO KARTIK for such a find...


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## indushek

jha said:


> *China/India discuss LCA project[​*
> KUDOS TO KARTIK for such a find...



My god a collaboration on LCA between China and India 

 If done would be the story of this century


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> *China/India discuss LCA project[​*
> KUDOS TO KARTIK for such a find...



Very old new it will be some media report way back in 1994.


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## Break the Silence

indushek said:


> My god a collaboration on LCA between China and India
> 
> If done would be the story of this century



Chill Sirji...... rumours of past spread by Indian Media..


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## jha

indushek said:


> My god a collaboration on LCA between China and India
> 
> *If done would be the story of this century*



A little correction...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN...the article is from '94..


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## Break the Silence

jha said:


> A little correction...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN...the article is from '94..



and let me to add li'lbit..
Today There is no thought of China regarding this project
and....


> From Archieve
> 1-Approaches to western manufactures have so far proved fruitless.
> 2-India had previously approached SAAB of Sweden and British Aerospace as potential partner of LCA programme, but neither company appears willing to gamble on project.


*And , now these bloody F***krs are standing in ques to compete for partnering LCA project..
This is what has changed since.

INDIA....INDIA....*


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## indushek

Break the Silence said:


> Chill Sirji...... rumours of past spread by Indian Media..





jha said:


> A little correction...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN...the article is from '94..



Oh to theek hai koi baat nahi, hum karlenge. Aur abhi toh line lagi hui haina kya bolta hai bheedu 

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------




Break the Silence said:


> and let me to add li'lbit..
> Today There is no thought of China regarding this project
> and....
> 
> *And , now these bloody F***krs are standing in ques to compete for partnering LCA project..
> This is what has changed since.
> 
> INDIA....INDIA....*



True man paisa me parmatma hai, kisine sahi bola


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## jha

> True man paisa me parmatma hai, kisine sahi bola



BABA INDUSHEK ne bola hai,,JAI ho BABA ki


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## indushek

jha said:


> BABA INDUSHEK ne bola hai,,JAI ho BABA ki



jaruram jaruram subham subham kintu maine kya bolum


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## trident2010

*IAF To Order More Tejas Mk-1s *







The Indian Air Force is processing a contract for 20 additional limited series Tejas Mk-1 light fighters -- the ones powered by the underpowered GE F-404-IN20. This will be in addition to the 20 already contracted for a few years ago. While base infrastructure is coming up expeditiously at Sulur, first Tejas deliveries to the IAF will be based at the Bangalore-based Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment (ASTE) for upto a year or more to iron out induction-related troubles. Once the IAF is satisfied that the fighters are well-supported, and all potential issues with HAL are sorted out, the aircraft will be shifted to Sulur. It has emerged that the IAF may choose to either base the second Tejas squadron also at Sulur, or even at nearby Kayathar, where it is in the process of building up a brand new air base. The Tejas is scheduled to achieve initial operational clearance/capability (IOC) in December this year, with the first squadron inducted by next year.



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF To Order More Tejas Mk-1s


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## jha

This is the same additional 20 we all were talking about...With the pace the engine selection is going we may very well see another 20 ordered...


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## Indian-Devil

Isn't it IAF has already ordered 40 LCA Mk-1 + few trainers(8 or so) some months back, are these 20 in addition to 40 or just a part of 40, whose oder was placed last year.

If these are part of already placed 40 AC then why such news are posted again n again.


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## Dark Angel

Indian-Devil said:


> Isn't it IAF has already ordered 40 LCA Mk-1 + few trainers(8 or so) some months back, are these 20 in addition to 40 or just a part of 40, whose oder was placed last year.
> 
> If these are part of already placed 40 AC then why such news are posted again n again.





thats exactly what i said in a diffrent thread earlier the answer is simple either shiv has got his informers as complete retards or he wants too much attention


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## sancho

Indian-Devil said:


> Isn't it IAF has already ordered 40 LCA Mk-1 + few trainers(8 or so) some months back, are these 20 in addition to 40 or just a part of 40, whose oder was placed last year.
> 
> If these are part of already placed 40 AC then why such news are posted again n again.



Only 1 squad, or 20 fighters were ordered so far, but another squad was speculated for some time and now it seems that MoD cleared that procurement. Nothing really new, but probably fixed now and imo a good move for the LCA development (although my hope is fully on LCA MK2)!


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## anathema

What is going on at the LCA front ? any news or updates ? the ADA website shows no test flights for some time !! Things have been quiet !


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## dbc

Does DRDO have enough F404 engines for an additional 20 LCA's?


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## anathema

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Does DRDO have enough F404 engines for an additional 20 LCA's?



I think they should be having adequate number of engines for 20 LCA's ...infact they should be having more...since N-LCA has also rolled out and 404 is used on it also...Further all the test aircrafts can also be cannibalized for engines -- ofcourse this depends when the tests will end


----------



## dbc

anathema said:


> I think they should be having adequate number of engines for 20 LCA's ...infact they should be having more...since N-LCA has also rolled out and 404 is used on it also...Further all the test aircrafts can also be cannibalized for engines -- ofcourse this depends when the tests will end



Right, I can't remember the last time engines were ordered - do you know how many?


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## anathema

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Right, I can't remember the last time engines were ordered - do you know how many?



No clue DBC.


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## Trisonics

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Right, I can't remember the last time engines were ordered - do you know how many?



we had 8 for development purposes and ordered 17 more in 2004..that would make it 24in total. I'm not sure if we have ordered any more after that.


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## Dark Angel

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Right, I can't remember the last time engines were ordered - do you know how many?





*17 were ordered in 2004, followed by 24 in 2007*


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## Sam Dhanraj

Trisonics said:


> we had 8 for development purposes and ordered 17 more in 2004..that would make it 24in total. I'm not sure if we have ordered any more after that.




Its more than 24. 

2004- 17
2007- 24

Total 41 according to the GE Press Release.



> Press Release
> F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> February 07, 2007 -- BANGALORE, INDIA -- Hindustan Aeronautics Limited *(HAL) has ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 *afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Value of the order is in excess of $100 million and *follows an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines *to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.
> 
> GE - Aviation: F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft


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## dbc

Dark Angel said:


> *17 were ordered in 2004, followed by 24 in 2007*



is that enough for an additional 20 LCA's?


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## Dark Angel

*Well it isnt sure if the order is to exceed more than 40. My guess is till the time there is no official release from GOI for me the news is as good as Al Capone running for president*


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## ganimi kawa

^^truer words were never said!


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1410 Test Flights successfully. (13-Aug-10).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-160, PV3-223,LSP1-59,LSP2-154,PV5-16, LSP3-14,LSP4-4)


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## sudhir007

Sorry if any body post it.


----------



## CONNAN

*BY: DHNS*

*In a few years, indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) will guard South Indian skies with full gusto as the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to station the first two Tejas squadrons in the South.While the first squadron of 20 fighters  already contracted by the IAF to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd  will be stationed in Sulur in Coimbatore, the second squadron may be stationed at Kayathar in Tuticorin, where a new airbase is getting ready, sources told Deccan Herald.*

The IAF has agreed to buy one more squadron of LCA mark-1, the contract for which is being processed at the IAF headquarters. The first squadron is expected to receive initial operation clearance by December.

While Sulur is being gradually converted a major base, the IAF has taken a decision to revive Kayathara World War II air fieldin a big way.

*We plan to have a big presence in the South, which will also help the Navy to be a truly blue water navy for which air cover is essential, said a senior IAF official. Also the IAF is in dialogue with the Airports Authority of India for getting defence enclaves near civilian airfields in the south.*

Recently, the IAF has revived WW II bases close to China border in J&K like Daulat Beig Oldie, Fuckche and Nyoma for transport operation. In the North East, work is underway to revive six advanced landing grounds in Arunachal Pradesh  Pasighat, Machuka, Walong, Tuting, Ziro and Vijaynagar.

Revival of the ALGs in the northern and eastern sector of the Sino-Indian border is expected to aid India in mobilising troops closer to the border on both flanks, as and when required.

However, so far there were not much of fighter operations in the south, where the focus was on training and maintenance. That is set to change with the IAF setting up bases and the defence forces installing radars along the coast to plug the surveillance gaps.

The IAF will increase its activities in under-utilised bases like Charbatia (Orissa) and Ojhar (Maharashtra). A base in Chhattishagrh is also likely as Steel Authority of India favours handing its Nandini-Durg airfield to the IAF.

The air force is upgrading its 30 air fields in the next three years beginning with Bhatinda. The lighting, instrument landing system and navigational aids will be upgraded.

The IAF is expanding its wings by stationing Su-30 fighters in more stations like Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jamnagar. Su-30 fighters are currently in Pune and Bareilly.

By 2022, the IAF aims to have its sanctioned 42 squadrons comprising Su-30, Tejas, the upcoming 126 medium multi role combat aircraft, medium combat aircrafta mark II version of Tejas with an improved engineand Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## anathema

Hate this kind of articles ! Lets have our IOC first atleast ! ADA has been unusually quiet on LCA testing front.


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## Leonidas




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## gowthamraj

Hehe first sq in Coimbatore


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## eric_cartman

But what will be it's strategic value if placed in Tamil Nadu??


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## gowthamraj

eric_cartman said:


> But what will be it's strategic value if placed in Tamil Nadu??



To dominate arabian sea and bay of bengal south portions.


----------



## Markus

The article begins like this "*In a few years.......*"

That very statement turned me off. We are listening the term "few years" for a long time now. 

Will those few years ever end?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Donatello

Markus said:


> The article begins like this "*In a few years.......*"
> 
> That very statement turned me off. We are listening the term "few years" for a long time now.
> 
> Will those few years ever end?



yea, i guess you just keep on hoping mate...or buy some JF-17s


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## Markus

penumbra said:


> yea, i guess you just keep on hoping mate...or buy some JF-17s



Thnx for the offer mate but we have no intention of committing suicide. 

Flankers and Fulcrums will do the job.


----------



## ARCHON

penumbra said:


> yea, i guess you just keep on hoping mate...or buy some JF-17s



No Thanks, We still have our Mig-21 Bisons .. which is better than your offer..


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## mohan goyal

we are in a era of modernisation....keep going india.u roxxxxx


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## Archie

There is nothing wrong with the article
It states that it will take few yrs maybe 3 yrs to raise 2 Sqds of tejas 
I dont see any thing wrong with that coz thanks to the already stretched production schedule of hal 
The chairman of Hal recently said that initial production of Tejas will be of 8-10 aircrafts a year which will be raised in subsequent years
As of June2010 Hal has delivered 4 Tejas aircrafts to the indian airforce , 
Indian Airforce has ordered 48 Tejas Mk1(40 fighters + 8 Trainers) whose production will continue till 2014
ie avg of 12 aircraft a year

4 More Tejas will be delivered by november 2010 , while first sqd will be operationalise in mid 2011 when No of Tejas reach 14


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## graphican

birdofprey said:


> No Thanks, *We still have our Mig-21 Bisons .. which is better than your offer*..



IAF Pilots won't appreciate your dimension I hope.


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## nForce

graphican said:


> IAF Pilots won't appreciate your dimension I hope.



If you observe a bit more carefully then you will find that the BVR capable MiG-21 Bis are doing perfectly fine.It was the older generation MiG-21 without upgrades and improper maintenance that were creating the problem.


----------



## Tshering22

Markus said:


> The article begins like this "*In a few years.......*"
> 
> That very statement turned me off. We are listening the term "few years" for a long time now.
> 
> Will those few years ever end?


I think they were talking about all the Mk1s guarding skies. The recent order of 20 more has stretched the production units and therefore it would take at least 4-5 years before we can have all 40 fighters based in south India.



> To dominate arabian sea and bay of bengal south portions.



Gowtham, I still don't understand what'd be the point of IAF fighters to be down south except for getting tested or something since most of our technology hub is in south.

The Navy already has southeast and southwestern commands protecting both the Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea. Besides, the MiG-29Ks and INS Vikramaditya along with Vikrant II would be there around 2014-2015 (approximately the time we'd be getting all 40 Tejas ready).

I think south India is already armed to teeth along with a MKI and MiG-29 IAF base in Andaman and Nicobar islands.

The weakest defense right now is in the east. we just have 2 fighter bases strong enough to face a potential attack as compared to PLAAF's ~8 bases. We need at least another 4-5 bases in the northeast here.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Frankenstein

penumbra said:


> yea, i guess you just keep on hoping mate...or buy some JF-17s



look what you have done


----------



## Nav

birdofprey said:


> No Thanks, We still have our Mig-21 Bisons .. which is better than your offer..



Those flying Coffins.. 
Thumbs up


----------



## Jacobtheindoamerican

Frankenstein said:


> look what you have done



Why would India buy JF when India can buy high end fighters?


----------



## ganimi kawa

> Gowtham, I still don't understand what'd be the point of IAF fighters to be down south* except for getting tested or something since most of our technology hub is in south.*



That is one of the reasons, another being maitaining secrecy. It is at sulur, far away from the prying enemy eyes ; IAF will evolve tactics to utilize tejas to the maximum extent.



> *The Navy already has southeast and southwestern commands protecting both the Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea.* Besides, the MiG-29Ks and INS Vikramaditya along with Vikrant II would be there around 2014-2015 (approximately the time we'd be getting all 40 Tejas ready).



The navy desperately needs air cover in this sector. We don't have a dedicated AAW ships as of now, and Navy would need every support it can get in air. We are not talking about protecting arabian sea or BoB, but domiinating the SLOCs in entire Indian ocean. Navy can't do it alone.

Vik and IAC 1 are not adequate for air cover.

And even if everything is taken care of this base can still provide escort to LRMP and MRMP aircrafts of Navy operating from INS Rajaji.



> I think south India is already armed to teeth along with a MKI and MiG-29 IAF base in Andaman and Nicobar islands.



NOPE!




> The weakest defense right now is in the east. we just have 2 fighter bases strong enough to face a potential attack as compared to PLAAF's ~8 bases. We need at least another 4-5 bases in the northeast here.



Spot on! Couldn't agree with you more!


----------



## Devianz

ganimi kawa said:


> The navy desperately needs air cover in this sector. We don't have a dedicated AAW ships as of now, and Navy would need every support it can get in air. We are not talking about protecting arabian sea or BoB, but domiinating the SLOCs in entire Indian ocean. Navy can't do it alone.



I doubt IAF can do that role with few LCAs. Besides an enemy would require an AC to attack us from through sea route. We have excellent relations with all countries operating a capable carrier. IAF's priority should be north and north-east for now or until they have a credible defensive capability in those area.


----------



## ganimi kawa

> doubt IAF can do that role with few LCAs. Besides an enemy would require an AC to attack us from through sea route. We have excellent relations with all countries operating a capable carrier. IAF's priority should be north and north-east for now or until they have a credible defensive capability in those area.



1. It's not about the LCA only.Having a fully equipped defensive base in far south is like an AC which can not be sunk. Trust me sulur will havethe capability to operate heavier crafts.

2. China is going to have an AC sooner than you think, this will be an extra line of defence! Thogh ideally, any chinese carrier group will have to first tackle A & N command.

3. IAF's priority is north and NE right now, look at the deployment trends in IAF. Wait for mrca and this trend will be even more clear.

4. I'll repeat once again, we vie for "sea dominance" and not "sea denial" , hence the extra effort!


----------



## you are fired

well its good news


----------



## navtrek

Great work HAL and DRDO


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## flanker143

I'm dying to see tejas getting IOC !!!! 

God plz fast forward some months of my life !!!


----------



## Devianz

ganimi kawa said:


> 2. China is going to have an AC sooner than you think, this will be an extra line of defence! Thogh ideally, any chinese carrier group will have to first tackle A & N command.
> 
> 4. I'll repeat once again, we vie for "sea dominance" and not "sea denial" , hence the extra effort!



Yes, but at the same time we will also be operating 3 CBGs (though i feel INS Viraat might be useless coz of lack of capable aircrafts).

IN is quite capable of handling any misadventures by China (if ever... considering they are surrounded by USN and SK's navy) in the near future.

Sea dominance cannot be achieved by IAF. It can only be achieved by IN and its CBGs.

I'm not saying that IAF shouldn't concentrate on South India but they should only do that once entire northern north-eastern frontiers are completely safe. That is where the real battleground of IAF is.


----------



## Devianz

flanker143 said:


> I'm dying to see tejas getting IOC !!!!
> 
> God plz fast forward some months of my life !!!



Time is precious mate... ask god to speed up Tejas's IOC instead.


----------



## Imran Khan

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *BY: DHNS*
> 
> *In a few years, indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) will guard South Indian skies with full gusto as the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to station the first two Tejas squadrons in the South.While the first squadron of 20 fighters  already contracted by the IAF to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd  will be stationed in Sulur in Coimbatore, the second squadron may be stationed at Kayathar in Tuticorin, where a new airbase is getting ready, sources told Deccan Herald.*
> 
> The IAF has agreed to buy one more squadron of LCA mark-1, the contract for which is being processed at the IAF headquarters. The first squadron is expected to receive initial operation clearance by December.
> 
> While Sulur is being gradually converted a major base, the IAF has taken a decision to revive Kayathara World War II air fieldin a big way.
> 
> *We plan to have a big presence in the South, which will also help the Navy to be a truly blue water navy for which air cover is essential, said a senior IAF official. Also the IAF is in dialogue with the Airports Authority of India for getting defence enclaves near civilian airfields in the south.*
> 
> Recently, the IAF has revived WW II bases close to China border in J&K like Daulat Beig Oldie, Fuckche and Nyoma for transport operation. In the North East, work is underway to revive six advanced landing grounds in Arunachal Pradesh  Pasighat, Machuka, Walong, Tuting, Ziro and Vijaynagar.
> 
> Revival of the ALGs in the northern and eastern sector of the Sino-Indian border is expected to aid India in mobilising troops closer to the border on both flanks, as and when required.
> 
> However, so far there were not much of fighter operations in the south, where the focus was on training and maintenance. That is set to change with the IAF setting up bases and the defence forces installing radars along the coast to plug the surveillance gaps.
> 
> The IAF will increase its activities in under-utilised bases like Charbatia (Orissa) and Ojhar (Maharashtra). A base in Chhattishagrh is also likely as Steel Authority of India favours handing its Nandini-Durg airfield to the IAF.
> 
> The air force is upgrading its 30 air fields in the next three years beginning with Bhatinda. The lighting, instrument landing system and navigational aids will be upgraded.
> 
> The IAF is expanding its wings by stationing Su-30 fighters in more stations like Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jamnagar. Su-30 fighters are currently in Pune and Bareilly.
> 
> By 2022, the IAF aims to have its sanctioned 42 squadrons comprising Su-30, Tejas, the upcoming 126 medium multi role combat aircraft, medium combat aircrafta mark II version of Tejas with an improved engineand Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter.



these in few years before my birth i thing they say same .


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## Tshering22

Imran Khan said:


> these in few years before my birth i thing they say same .


Very funny. They are simply referring to complete induction of 40 Mk1 fighters which is naturally going to take a few years. We need 40 production grade Mk.1 fighters apart from the technology demostration flights that are needed.


----------



## Hud

Tejas have not been posted to guard the south skies but protect Sir karunanidhi from Madam Jayalalitha.

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## Trisonics

It would take a while, after the induction for the IAF to create specific roles and doctrines around the Tejas. So it is indeed a good idea to stage it at the south, where the proximity to ADA and HAL would help making a role for tejas easy. I'm sure after the squadrons grow they will find roles in other areas as well.

Not to forget it was tested at Leh...


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## flanker143

Well most probably it will be an interceptor as well as be a shortrange tactical ground striker due to its range constraint ....


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## gowthamraj

Hud said:


> Tejas have not been posted to guard the south skies but protect Sir karunanidhi from Madam Jayalalitha.



Jayalalitha not need those as DMK will end with karunanidi in my opinion. 




Then this base is just few km from my house 

Before sometimes i seen mig 23 here


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## ganimi kawa

Devianz said:


> 1. Yes, but at the same time we will also be operating 3 CBGs (though i feel INS Viraat might be useless coz of lack of capable aircrafts).
> 
> 2. IN is quite capable of handling any misadventures by China (if ever... considering they are surrounded by USN and SK's navy) in the near future.
> 
> 3. Sea dominance cannot be achieved by IAF. It can only be achieved by IN and its CBGs.
> 
> 4. I'm not saying that IAF shouldn't concentrate on South India but they should only do that once entire northern north-eastern frontiers are completely safe. That is where the real battleground of IAF is.




I'll try to give answers pointwise.

1. Yes, we will have 2 ACs ( viraat will retire as soon as vik joins the navy. Though it may remain in some other role like heli carrier or command ship upto 2020)

Out of the two , vik will carry 16 mig 29ks. And IAC 1 is supposed to carry 30 that makes a total of 46 fighters. This is more than enough for pakistan, but not for sanitising the entire IOR which is the ultimate aim for IN.

2. IN is capable of facing PLAN in IOR as of now but it's the future we are talkin about. PLAN is expanding and we must try an establish an unassailable lead over it in IOR, just as it will try to do in south china sea.

3. You are downgrading the entire concept of land based naval strike aircraft, it's a time tested concept ( as recent as the Falkland war)!
While you need ships out in the for sea dominance Air force has a vital role to play.

4. India has the advantage of this huge landmass jutting into IO like a dagger. We must take advantage of this by creating bases like Sulur.
While bases in NE are necessary , there is no need to rob peter to pay paul in this case.

5. Please also think about other points I've mentioned about the necessity of this base like Secrecy for LCA and escorts for naval patrol and ASW planes operating from naval base INS Rajali, Arakkonam, TN.

6. Also know that IAF operates two squadrans of Jaguars with sea eagle missiles specializing in maritime strike since a long time and intends to replace them with SU 30 mki with Brahmos!

P.S. Thanks for a nice discussion, let's continue!


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Sorry if any body post it.



Hi Sudhir, do you have a cutaway of the actual LCA versions? I'm asking because the EJ200 is offered with 3D TVC if we want, but that would need to relocate the brake chute right? So is ther enough space inside to put it more to the front for example? 
If not, what other ways would be possible?


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> Out of the two , vik will carry 16 mig 29ks. And IAC 1 is supposed to carry 30 that makes a total of 46 fighters. This is more than enough for pakistan, but not for sanitising the entire IOR which is the ultimate aim for IN.



We have only 45 Mig 29Ks on order and both carriers will be able to carry 30 aircrafts, not 30 fighters. A mix of around 20 fighters and 10 helicopters is likely, but no real numbers are out so far. The last report I read about it said, that those 45 Mig 29s will be divided into 3 squadrons (I guess one for each carrier and one for training, or reserve).

In general, I think these LCAs have no big strategic role in the south. They are enough for air patrol and air defense if needed in that area, but it will take some time till they get A2G, or even air to sea capabilities. Also IAF wanted to upgrade the Jaguar IM + use the MKIs in this role too, which is far more capable in the anti ship role, because of longer range and endurance, as well as way more payload. Not to forget that it can use better weapons like Brahmos for example.

Personally I would like to see IN to take over the anti ship role with fighter squads too. Logistics and pilot training should be way easier, because IN already will have ASW aircrafts, as well as dedicated pilot training for the carrier fighters. Two squads of Su 34 (Su 34 because of more advantages in long endurance mssions, as well as dedicated avionics) for them would be a great addition for the long range MP role and if one of them would be placed on the Andaman islands, they would have a great strategic reach on the whole eastern area ( Bay of Bengal, or even into the Strait of Malacca).


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## KS

sancho said:


> Personally I would like to see IN to take over the anti ship role with fighter squads too. Logistics and pilot training should be way easier, because IN already will have ASW aircrafts, as well as dedicated pilot training for the carrier fighters. *Two squads of Su 34 (Su 34 because of more advantages in long endurance mssions,* as well as dedicated avionics) for them would be a great addition for the long range MP role and if one of them would be placed on the Andaman islands, they would have a great strategic reach on the whole eastern area ( Bay of Bengal, or even into the Strait of Malacca).



*Heck I too would like that baby in tricolor*....



alibaz said:


>


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## Sri

Karthic Sri said:


> *Heck I too would like that baby in tricolor*....



Can't we get our MKI's do the same job? My understanding is SU 34 does not offer anything extra in terms of weapons load or long distance endurance. Not sure about the RCS of this baby when compared to MKI .
Thanks
Sri.


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## KS

Sri said:


> Can't we get our MKI's do the same job? My understanding is SU 34 does not offer anything extra in terms of weapons load or long distance endurance. Not sure about the RCS of this baby when compared to MKI .
> Thanks
> Sri.



If u look at the overall features they are almost similar but the things that favour the FullBack over the Flanker for this role is the extra load it can carry,dedicated avionics for strike role and the more comfortable cockpit so that pilots are not strained during HE missions.


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## redpearl75

Well, as far as I know Su 34 has the same capacity of carrying weapons as MKIs and is a Fighter Bomber whereas MKI is a fully multirole air superiority aircraft meaning that it can be utilized as both and interceptor, fighter-bomber, as well as Reconance role. In fact it can be used as a mobile platform to transfer data to other aircriafts, ground and, sea based resources acting as a mini AWACS... Su 34 has a top speed of 1.8 mach and MKI has a max speed of mach 2+, apart from that Fullback can climb upto 15000 Mtrs but MKI can go till 17000+ Mts in altitude. The radar used in Fullback is *V004 passive electronically scanned array* radar, and a *UOMZ laser/television system *for designating and guiding precision-guided munitions. The front-mounted radar is supplemented by a rear-aspect V005 radar housed in the long tail "stinger". The Su-34 is equipped with comprehensive ECM equipment, including an infrared missile launch detection system.
Whereas MKI has forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.[38] The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere (far better than SU 34). Rangewise too MKi is better and the TTW ratio is far greatr with MKI compared to that of the Fullback... RCS is also very low of the MKI as the components are composite and alloys... not sure of the RCS of Fullback though... 

I don't find Su34 better than MKI and the only good thing compared to MKI is the pilot comfort... that's all...


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## MZUBAIR

Karthic Sri said:


> *Heck I too would like that baby in tricolor*....



MKI's bomber capability is far batter then SU34's.

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## redpearl75

Moreover, Su34 is a dedicated fighter bomber and is far more heavier thatn MKI but carries the same weapon load which makes it hard to maneuver compared to MKI.... It's radar is made to support only Air-to-ground or Ship mode that's it and is limited.... MKI is truly a multirole fighter and can support multi mission and can switch the mode being in flight itself....


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## redpearl75

MKI can carry the following load:

Air to Air Missiles:

10 &#215; R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km 
10 &#215; Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 120 km 
6 &#215; R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km 
6 &#215; R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km 
2 &#215; R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km 
2 &#215; R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km 
6 &#215; R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km 
3 &#215; Novator KS-172 AAM-L 400 km/Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer" 

Air to Surface Missiles:

3 &#215; Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km 
3 &#215; Kh-59MK active radar homing anti-ship missile, 285 km 
4 &#215; Kh-35 Anti-Ship Missile, 130 km 
1 &#215; PJ-10 Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile,300 km 
6 &#215; Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km 
6 &#215; Kh-29T/L laser guided missile, 30 km 
4 &#215; S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets) 
4 &#215; S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets) 

Bombs:

8 &#215; KAB-500L laser guided bombs 
3 &#215; KAB-1500L laser guided bombs 
8 &#215; FAB-500T dumb bombs 
28 &#215; OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs 
32 &#215; OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs 
8 &#215; RBK-500 cluster bombs 

and Su 34 can carry the following: 

1 &#215; 30 mm GSh-30-1 (9A-4071K) cannon, 180 rounds 
Defensive weapons include the R-27 Alamo, R-73 Archer and R-77 Adder series, with the PESA providing the capability to track ten targets and concurrently engage four with BVR missile shots. 
10 &#215; wing and fuselage stations for up to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance, including Kh-29L/T (AS-14), Kh-25MT/ML/MP (AS-10), Kh-36 (?), Kh-38, Kh-41 (?), Kh-59M (AS-18), Kh-58 (AS-11), Kh-31P (AS-17), Kh-35 Ural (AS-20), Kh-65S, Kh-SD, 2 Moskit, 3 &#215; Jachont air-to-ground missiles, KAB-500L/KR or KAB-1500L guided bombs, unguided bombs, B-8 rocket pods with 20 &#215; 80 mm S-8 rockets, B-13 rocket pods with 5 &#215; 122 mm S-13 rockets, O-25 rocket pods with 1 &#215; 340 mm S-25 rocket, fuel tanks, EW- and reconnaissance pods.

that's all.....

Clearly proved that MKI is a much advanced platform than Fullback...


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## KS

Mate the MKI is jack of all trades but a master of none if i may say so.

And there is an inherent difference between a multirole fighter and a designated fighter-bomber.

A good link on the Fullback:

Sukhoi Su-32/Su-34 Fullback

And u had mentioned as if the pilot comfort is a least concern in these type of missions...nahh..it is one of the most important.


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## redpearl75

Karthic Sri said:


> Mate the MKI is jack of all trades but a master of none if i may say so.
> 
> And there is an inherent difference between a multirole fighter and a designated fighter-bomber.
> 
> A good link on the Fullback:
> 
> Sukhoi Su-32/Su-34 Fullback
> 
> And u had mentioned as if the pilot comfort is a least concern in these type of missions...nahh..it is one of the most important.



How can you say that MKI is master of none...? I believe rather we all know that among the Flanker family MKi is the best and the most advanced version ever and combines the capabilities of the basic Su 30 as well as the Su35... First of all a dedicated bomber can nevr be compared with a true multirole fighter as a dedicated bomber, no matter how advanced it is will have a limited role and can not come out of it, where MKI can be used as a fighter bomber with it's own air defence capability.... And if you talk about pilot comfort then I won't say that it's the least concern rather it's the most important aspect in aviation.... And MKI has not lagged behind in this segment either. The rear seat is raised for better visibility. The cockpit is provided with containers to store food and water reserves, a waste disposal system and extra oxygen bottles. The KD-36DM ejection seat is inclined at 30º, to help the pilot resist aircraft accelerations in air combat.
Moreover the avionics package in SU34 is completely different from that of MKI. Su 34 can be compared with F 15/18 E/F/Tornedo but can not be with any of the morden 4.5 generation fighter aircraft due to it's role. It's a good replacement for our Mig 27s and jaguars if you are concedering it for the IAF just like that but can never be better than MKI as it's far far superior to Fullback in terms of every aspect..... I can't buy the fact that Fulback is better or can be compared to MKI.. Sorry brother...


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## flanker143

> How can you say that MKI is master of none...? I believe rather we all know that among the Flanker family MKi is the best and the most advanced version ever and combines the capabilities of the basic Su 30 as well as the Su35... First of all a dedicated bomber can nevr be compared with a true multirole fighter as a dedicated bomber, no matter how advanced it is will have a limited role and can not come out of it, where MKI can be used as a fighter bomber with it's own air defence capability.... And if you talk about pilot comfort then I won't say that it's the least concern rather it's the most important aspect in aviation.... And MKI has not lagged behind in this segment either. The rear seat is raised for better visibility. The cockpit is provided with containers to store food and water reserves, a waste disposal system and extra oxygen bottles. The KD-36DM ejection seat is inclined at 30&#186;, to help the pilot resist aircraft accelerations in air combat.
> Moreover the avionics package in SU34 is completely different from that of MKI. Su 34 can be compared with F 15/18 E/F/Tornedo but can not be with any of the morden 4.5 generation fighter aircraft due to it's role. It's a good replacement for our Mig 27s and jaguars if you are concedering it for the IAF just like that but can never be better than MKI as it's far far superior to Fullback in terms of every aspect..... I can't buy the fact that Fulback is better or can be compared to MKI.. Sorry brother...



not to worry buddy.......

he was just comparing the "air to ground" (not A TO A which obviously cannot be compared) capabilities....... i feel he was just saying even if both mki and fullback carry similiar payload ,have similar range even then full back has an upper hand in ground strike capabilities bcoz it is better suited for that purpose or i should say it has been designed to suite that purpose ....


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## sudhir007

any news update of LSP-5 ????


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## sudhir007




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## jackfoster220

sudhir007 said:


>


 
What is this??
Please explain


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## marcos98

jackfoster220 said:


> What is this??
> Please explain



that a wind tunnel model udergoing tests.....


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## sudhir007

jackfoster220 said:


> What is this??
> Please explain



It is wind tunnel model of Tejas


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## jackfoster220

sudhir007 said:


> It is wind tunnel model of Tejas



For NLCA or MK-2?


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## sudhir007

jackfoster220 said:


> For NLCA or MK-2?


both but now currently for Mk-1 later Mk-2 and NLCA .....


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## redpearl75

As far as I know that LSP-6 to LSP-28 - Planned to fly by late 2010 with night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.


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## flanker143

wasn't lsp 6 the host to some new tech or avionics....??


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## IndianRobo

flanker143 said:


> wasn't lsp 6 the host to some new tech or avionics....??



LSP 6 is rumored to fly with India's New EW suit, which would be better than the Mayavi It uses


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## flanker143

> India's New EW suit



which one ??


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## IndianRobo

flanker143 said:


> which one ??



I read it in ADA's Website, but th Site is Now Updated and cannot find it.... Its a New EW Suit


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## sudhir007

IndianRobo said:


> LSP 6 is rumored to fly with India's New EW suit, which would be better than the Mayavi It uses



Sorry no more funncy staff that make more delay in IOC. I dnt think there is any other ew suite rather then Mayavi.


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## IndianRobo

sudhir007 said:


> Sorry no more funncy staff that make more delay in IOC. I dnt think there is any other ew suite rather then Mayavi.



I do Not Know.... I just shared what I saw in The ADA's website a couple of Month back.... Feel free to disagree


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## Indian-Devil

IndianRobo said:


> I do Not Know.... I just shared what I saw in The ADA's website a couple of Month back.... Feel free to disagree



But Mayavi itself a JV effort between India and Israel. And that would be used on many new platform including F-35 for Israel.

Can you provide more details on it.


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## redpearl75

As far as Im aware LP6 is going to roll out with the night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot. That's all... No changes with EW suit...


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## anathema

Indian-Devil said:


> But Mayavi itself a JV effort between India and Israel. And that would be used on many new platform including F-35 for Israel.
> 
> Can you provide more details on it.



There are hardly any details on Mayavi ...Its very hush hush .... Prateek had some posted some blog site for very minor details...

In betn where is Prateek.


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## atyagi

Deleted---


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## ace slasher

this thread is huge
i dont want to read everything-can someone tell me:
1-when does the LCA mass production start? (estimated)
2-the unit cost of a LCA?


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## anathema

ace slasher said:


> this thread is huge
> i dont want to read everything-can someone tell me:
> 1-when does the LCA mass production start? (estimated)



IOC in Dec 2010 -- Then comes FOC somewhere in 2011 meanwhile production of LCA would have started. No fixed schedule yet.



ace slasher said:


> 2-the unit cost of a LCA?



Approx 30 million dollars.


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## soaringphnx




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## Indian-Devil

anathema said:


> IOC in Dec 2010 -- Then comes FOC somewhere in 2011 meanwhile production of LCA would have started. No fixed schedule yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Approx 30 million dollars.




IAF version LCA cost around 21 Million dollors while Naval LCA would cost around 30-31 Million dollors.


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## anathema

Indian-Devil said:


> IAF version LCA cost around 21 Million dollors while Naval LCA would cost around 30-31 Million dollors.



Source ? and what is so different IAF LCA and NLCA which justifies an increase of 9-10 mil dollars


----------



## stevesteevy

KAVERI UPDATE: Final Flight Tests On IL-76 Testbed To Completed This October

*The Indian government today provided a comprehensive update on the indigenous Kaveri turbofan programme. Here it is, in full:*

(i) All major engine sub-assemblies have been tested for aerodynamic performance and structural integrity (life & safety) requirements from qualification point of view. 

(ii) Critical sub-systems have been developed. 

(iii)* Full authority Kaveri Digital engine Control System (KADECS) has been designed and developed. *

(iv) Various critical technologies in the fields of instrumentation/measurement, health monitoring, data acquisition, etc. have been developed.

(v) *Twelve materials (Titanium, Steel and super alloys) have been developed and type certified. *

(vi) *Directionally Solidified (DS) casting technology and high temperature tip brazing technology for the High Pressure and Low Pressure turbine blades & vanes have been developed.*

(vii) Adequate manufacturing technology base has been established.

*The reasons for the delay in developing the said engine are as follows:*

(i) *Non-availability of critical materials, viz., nickel and titanium based alloys in the country.*...........The matter is now solved for the news says..................." *Twelve materials (Titanium, Steel and super alloys) have been developed and type certified *"

(ii) Low priority from foreign manufacturing agencies in view of the Minimum Order Quantity (MOQ) vis-à-vis the production order quantity from other engine houses.

(iii) Lack of manufacturing infrastructure for critical components.

(iv) Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials were not originally envisaged but included subsequently, based on the recommendations of Certification Agency and IAF.

(v) US sanctions imposed during 1998 affected the delivery of critical systems & components. 

(vi) Lack of infrastructure of engine testing and component / system level testing within the country leading to dependency on foreign agencies.

Kaveri engine testing under simulated altitude and forward speed conditions during February 2010 has been successfully completed. Another engine has been integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow for ground and flight test which is expected to complete by October 2010 (sic). These two major milestones would make 'Kaveri' engine certified for flight operations. Productions of LCAs are, meanwhile, as decided by user, being fitted with imported engines.


Wonder Why it took so long for us to develop...........


> *Twelve materials (Titanium, Steel and super alloys) have been developed and type certified*

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## IndianRobo

Wow, Kaveri would get Operational status after October tests, but what would be its Thrust? more than 90KN atleast???


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## kish

@stevesteevy 
thanks for info .


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## kish

Indian-Devil said:


> IAF version LCA cost around 21 Million dollors while Naval LCA would cost around 30-31 Million dollors.



Is this price comparison with mk-2 lca? 
Because i think N-lca with not coming with lca mk-1. [ correct me if i m wrong]
now if yes, please explain what making price difference .. 9 -10 million is not a small amount .. is there additional costly instrument needed for naval version than air force version OR airframe is so costly OR both things raising price, please explain.. thanks in advance


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## kish

IndianRobo said:


> Wow, Kaveri would get Operational status after October tests, but what would be its Thrust? more than 90KN atleast???


is this kaveri engine? dont know much about engine but intreasted about lca.


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## IndianRobo

kish said:


> is this kaveri engine? dont know much about engine but intreasted about lca.



Yes, the Engine You see in The Picture is the Indigenous Kaveri Engine


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## Trac

IndianRobo said:


> Yes, the Engine You see in The Picture is the Indigenous Kaveri Engine



Is this engine we developing for MK2 version of LCA???


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## atyagi

Trac said:


> Is this engine we developing for MK2 version of LCA???



As of now Kaveri project has been delinked with LCA project.... However there is a news that at least one of the LCA prototype will be fitted with Kaveri for testing purpose.

Future of Kaveri depends on how it performs in the coming October tests...


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## Indian-Devil

anathema said:


> Source ? and what is so different IAF LCA and NLCA which justifies an increase of 9-10 mil dollars



These are the approximate costs as of now, which may vary when Mk-2 will be evolved with some changes and new engine.

http://www.indian-military.org/air-...role/733-hal-light-combat-aircraft-tejas.html

Naval LCA is costlier than IAF version due to few factors:-

The airframe of the naval variant of the Tejas will be modified with a nose droop to provide improved view during landing approach, and wing leading edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach. The LEVCONs are control surfaces that extend from the wing-root leading edge and thus afford better low-speed handling for the LCA, which would otherwise be slightly hampered due to the increased drag that results from its delta-wing design. As an added benefit, the LEVCONs will also increase controllability at high angles of attack (AoA).

The naval Tejas will also have a strengthened spine, a longer and stronger undercarriage due to higher sink rate ,Strengthened fuselage, Arrestor hook for deck recovery and powered nose wheel steering for deck manoeuvrability.


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## kali

*Tejas Test pilots from NFTC capture modern philosophies of IAF's frontline squadrons; all efforts to give Tejas the best pilot-vehicle interface, says ADA boss P.S.*

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/THgAlDvheJI/AAAAAAAACSU/6NnW-0Nusc8/s1600/PSS.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/THf81_XUEKI/AAAAAAAACSE/fM2npUixaNo/s1600/LCA-LSP-4.jpg

Test pilots from India&#8217;s National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), a crucial unit aiding the development of India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), are on a mission to familiarize themselves with the modern philosophies of Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons. This, they feel, will benefit the LCA project, which is nearing its initial operational clearance (IOC) phase.
Program director for combat aircraft and Aeronautical Development Agency Director P.S. Subramanyam tells AVIATION WEEK that the NFTC team should gain enough expertise from the current mission to give Tejas the best pilot-vehicle interface.
&#8220;Our pilots and other experts from NFTC are trying to consolidate from all the available aircraft so as to make Tejas the best flying platform,&#8221; Subramanyam says.
&#8220;The current familiarization mission will give the test pilots the feel of the latest technologies in some of the frontline aircraft,&#8221; an IAF official says. &#8220;Tejas will have to eventually fly along with Su-30 MKIs, Mirages and the MiG 29s. The team will update themselves with the latest philosophies and compatibility in a combat environment.&#8221; 

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Defence Blog With A Difference: Tejas Test pilots from NFTC capture modern philosophies of IAF's frontline squadrons; all efforts to give Tejas the best pilot-vehicle interface, says ADA boss P.S.


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## SpArK




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## anathema

LCA nearing IOC ---Cant wait !!!!!


Final Certification Process For Indian LCA Underway | AVIATION WEEK



> The final certification process for Tejas, Indias Light Combat Aircraft, has begun ahead of its crucial initial operational clearance (IOC), program official P.S. Subramanyam tells AVIATION WEEK.
> 
> The certification process is being conducted by a team headed by K. Tamilmani, chief executive at the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac). It is one of the most significant developments in the last nine and a half years of the program. The first prototype of the Tejas initial technology demonstrator made its first flight on Jan. 4, 2001.
> 
> The certification mainly ensures that the user [the Indian Air Force] will be handed over a safe, mature and reliable aircraft with specified performance, says Subramanyam, who is program director for combat aircraft and director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). *Cemilac has given a clear road map segmenting two major stepsequipment and system certifications. The process was started a month ago.*
> 
> More than 300 engineers from ADA, Cemilac, the Defense Research and Development Organization, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., the National Aerospace Laboratories and other program partners are working in tandem to ensure that Tejas enters the much-awaited IOC by December 2010.
> 
> Theres excitement in the air, Subramanyam says. We are ensuring that everything goes as per the scriptbe it the tests on the ground, on the aircraft and while [in the] air. *The Tejas certification mission is in full throttle.*
> 
> For its part, Cemilac has been updated with all the test schedules. All operational equipment needs to be certified, Tamilmani says. We look at the reliability of all systems . . . especially in the flight-control systems. Tejas has four levels of redundancy stages for its flight-control computer.
> 
> Tamilmani says Tejas has proved itself as a safe platform, and the Cemilac team interacts very closely with the users conducting the airworthiness certification.
> 
> The envelope for IOC is frozen and we are working very closely with the [Indian Air Force] program management team at ADA and with other partners, Tamilmani adds.
> 
> (This is the first in a series of stories by Aviation Week exclusively capturing all the developments of Tejas crucial entry into the IOC phase.)

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## k7x

kish said:


> Is this price comparison with mk-2 lca?
> Because i think N-lca with not coming with lca mk-1. [ correct me if i m wrong]
> now if yes, please explain what making price difference .. 9 -10 million is not a small amount .. is there additional costly instrument needed for naval version than air force version OR airframe is so costly OR both things raising price, please explain.. thanks in advance



if the air force version of the plane try to land on aircraft carrier, it will rip apart due to stress. 

from landing gear to arrester hook.. from nose to tail it needs additional strength. in addition to that its engine needs to be specially built for sea salt corrosion prevention. 

and fuel dump is again a new system that is not in air force version. 

so $10 million per piece is for recovery of investment by HAL + additional materials / process and new instruments.

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## SpArK

oops it seems IAF is also on an opinion poll







Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF Conducts Poll, Asks If LCA Tejas Will Replace MiG-21 In Time!


Full text







Very interesting, and I thought I was the only one who conducted elegantly unscientific polls! The screengrab above is from a poll that the Indian Air Force appears to have conducted on its official website, with the very timely question: Can the LCA replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force in time? Hmmm, oddly worded question. To be sure, the poll doesn't indicate when it was conducted (or for that matter, whether it was conducted at all!) and for how long it was open. All we have is this mystifying, tantalizing opinion poll results page, with no links to where it actually comes from. But boy is it timely now, with the LCA Tejas aiming to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) in December this year. The poll appears to have got some pretty decent response too -- 2,50,953 votes, with a little over 66 per cent (~1.6 lakh voters) voting that the LCA would indeed replace the MiG-21 fleet in time, though a chunky 21 per cent didn't think it would.

But what was this poll about? What's the story? I'm going to try and find out tomorrow, but in the meanwhile, I'd love to know what everyone thinks.


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## Dark Angel

^^^^^^^^^^


*definately will a thousand times over*


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1417 Test Flights successfully. (26-Aug-10).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-163, PV3-225,LSP1-59,LSP2-155,PV5-17, LSP3-14,LSP4-4)


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## foxbat

So a noobee question..

How many usable LCA machines are already operational.? What I mean is that once the IOC etc is done and operationalization begins, will the count begin from zero or will some of the prototypes and LSP's will be fitted to be operational jets contributing to the 1st squad..?


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## praveen007

There r curently 8 lca frames oprational. and after ioc they r counted into the squarden.

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## anathema

praveen007 said:


> There r curently 8 lca frames oprational. and after ioc they r counted into the squarden.



IMO only LSP's will be counted as operational a/c's ...PV's will be used to further expand the test envelope or will be canibalized. 

This is just a guess -- i dont believe there is any published road map.


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## hellofriends

BENNY said:


> oops it seems IAF is also on an opinion poll
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF Conducts Poll, Asks If LCA Tejas Will Replace MiG-21 In Time!
> 
> 
> Full text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting, and I thought I was the only one who conducted elegantly unscientific polls! The screengrab above is from a poll that the Indian Air Force appears to have conducted on its official website, with the very timely question: Can the LCA replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force in time? Hmmm, oddly worded question. To be sure, the poll doesn't indicate when it was conducted (or for that matter, whether it was conducted at all!) and for how long it was open. All we have is this mystifying, tantalizing opinion poll results page, with no links to where it actually comes from. But boy is it timely now, with the LCA Tejas aiming to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) in December this year. The poll appears to have got some pretty decent response too -- 2,50,953 votes, with a little over 66 per cent (~1.6 lakh voters) voting that the LCA would indeed replace the MiG-21 fleet in time, though a chunky 21 per cent didn't think it would.
> 
> But what was this poll about? What's the story? I'm going to try and find out tomorrow, but in the meanwhile, I'd love to know what everyone thinks.



sorry i didn't find any poll in air force website..if it really exist please post the link.....


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## rockstarIN

Devianz said:


> I doubt IAF can do that role with few LCAs. Besides an enemy would require an AC to attack us from through sea route. We have excellent relations with all countries operating a capable carrier. IAF's priority should be north and north-east for now or until they have a credible defensive capability in those area.



Check this:-

China is constructing/helping to construct a new navel base in Sri Lanka.

China going for a good number aircraft career fleet in future.

Back up to Andaman navel base from the main land.

Kochi is the base for Indian indigenous aircraft carrier production, so need air cover.

Digio Garcia is there.(Not a threat as british/American as of now, but we need counter measures always)

Thx

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## sudhir007



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## Dash

rockstar said:


> Check this:-
> 
> China is constructing/helping to construct a new navel base in Sri Lanka.
> 
> China going for a good number aircraft career fleet in future.
> 
> Back up to Andaman navel base from the main land.
> 
> Kochi is the base for Indian indigenous aircraft carrier production, so need air cover.
> 
> Digio Garcia is there.(Not a threat as british/American as of now, but we need counter measures always)
> 
> Thx


China will not keep its aircraft carrier in that base for sure.

1. The day Srilanks allows an aircraft carrier to anchor there, the day they loose our support.

2. In the event of a war, if the aircraft carrier will not be there as it will be the close range of our brahmos and torpedos. They are not a fool to keep an AC there.


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## praveen007

@ anthema
as per brf all pv frames of lca will also b apgraed to lsp5 status. and pv4 and lsp6 will b for test bed.


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## stevesteevy

KAVERI ENGINE UP DATE : My First Look at Kaveri's Compressor Blades + The Indian Single Crystal Effort


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## Desi Sher

I do Not know if these Photos have been Posted already, But this Is New to me....

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## Desi Sher



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## Desi Sher



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## rockstarIN

Desi Sher said:


>



It shows LSP 2 in the pix, so it is old right


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> China will not keep its aircraft carrier in that base for sure.
> 
> 1. The day Srilanks allows an aircraft carrier to anchor there, the day they loose our support.
> 
> 2. In the event of a war, if the aircraft carrier will not be there as it will be the close range of our brahmos and torpedos. They are not a fool to keep an AC there.



Im not saying the will keep their AC there in Lanka, but surely in Indian Ocean.

Brahmos range is 290 Kms, they can have ACs out of those missiles in the sea and can attack from air to Indian mainland.


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## Indian-Devil

rockstar said:


> Im not saying the will keep their AC there in Lanka, but surely in Indian Ocean.
> 
> Brahmos range is 290 Kms, they can have ACs out of those missiles in the sea and can attack from air to Indian mainland.



First of all there is no possibilities of war between India and China as of now. China is not even close to launch its Aircraft Carrier in next few years. 
If something happens in after 7-10 years then looking at Indian Navy's current fleet and new ships induction, It will not be an easy job for fighter jets to simply attack on Indian mainland. Indian land based defence system and AWACS system will be able to tackle the Air thrust from Chinese AC. 
Only one area where Indian navy is lagging these days is induction of new submarines, for which GOI and Navy should finalise the vendor and should induct ASAP.


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> Im not saying the will keep their AC there in Lanka, but surely in Indian Ocean.
> 
> Brahmos range is 290 Kms, they can have ACs out of those missiles in the sea and can attack from air to Indian mainland.


We will not discuss that here as it will be off topic.
But all i want to say is we have a shield, their AC will be very valunerable in IOR.


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## sudhir007

Ó¡¶ÈLCAÕ½¶·»úº½µçÓëÎäÆ÷ÏµÍ³Èí¼þ¿ª·¢_°Ù¶ÈÎÄ¿â

official detail of LCA project. I dnt know weather I show you this or not may be some guy already know.

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## redpearl75

Pretty detailed but worth not much as we all know what LCA is as that's a foreign forum and link which might have some info off track but what we know here in India is something based on the own resources and we have been looking for, extensively reading and understanding the LCA thing from the first time the name itself got populated... No offence but yes the link is a good one...


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## sudhir007

IAF pilots can fly Tejas on Dec. 27

Combat pilots o of the Indian Air Force (IAF) can look forward to flying the &#8220;Made in India&#8221; fighter Tejas on December 27.

The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will get the critical thumbs up sign in terms of safety and reliability or &#8220;initial operational clearance&#8221; (IOC) from experts. This approval will lead to the induction of the fighter into the IAF&#8217;s fleet, marking a major milestone for the Indian defence industry, Mr P.S. Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the man spearheading the pro

gramme, told this newspaper. The IAF has ordered for 40 of these combat jets (two squadrons) which will be deployed at the air force base in Sulur, Tamil Nadu.

In addition to initial operational clearance of the Air Force version, the programme will witness another high point: with maiden flight of Naval version of Tejas in December 2010.

Mr Subramanyam said: &#8220;The campaign of certification is on and all organisations involved in the programme are working to complete the process by the targeted date. Once the certification is over, it will go to the user, and that will be major milestone for the programme.&#8221;

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## RPK

http://www.bitsoftsystems.com/mydocs/Avionics&#37;20Mission Computer Case Study.pdf


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## RPK




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## RPK

---------- Post added at 08:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

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## ironman

*India Sets Dec. 27 Deadline For Tejas IOC​*Sep 14, 2010 

By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India

India has set a Dec. 27 deadline to complete the certification process for its Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)

According to P.S. Subramanyam, director for combat aircraft at the Aeronautical Development Agency, the deadline was set to make sure Tejas enters its much-awaited initial operational clearance phase. The certification process is monitored by the Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification.

We are at it, and close to 400 scientists and engineers are currently working on the certification program, he says. We need to consolidate all that we have done in the last 20 years and put it to the scrutiny of the certification agency. We have set ourselves a target to complete the certification process and December 27 will be a significant day for Indias military aviation program.

Subramanyam spoke before a select group of defense correspondents during the official logo launch of the Bangalore Defense and Aerospace Journalists Forum.

*The LCA chief said that an additional 20 Tejas aircraft are on the way, bringing the total to 40. The first 40 will be MK-1s, while the next 86 will be Mk-2s, with a new powerplant. The Indian navy is projected to receive 56 of the aircraft, while 16 trainers also will be delivered.*

*Sources say the limited series production vehicle (LSP-5) is expected to fly very soon, with the LSP-6 (an experimental platform), LSP-7 and LSP-8 following suit.*

The engine ground run for LSP-5 is over, and we may conduct the first flight after sorting out some last-minute teething issues, a source said.

India Sets Dec. 27 Deadline For Tejas IOC | AVIATION WEEK

So the total will be.. *40+86+56+16 = 198*


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## rockstarIN

Mk-1 will run with GE engine and MK-2 with Kaveri/Eurojet engine?

What else is the diff in Mk1 & Mk2?


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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> Mk-1 will run with GE engine and MK-2 with Kaveri/Eurojet engine?
> 
> What else is the diff in Mk1 & Mk2?



Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is currently working on two different design variant for Tejas MK-2, while major changes in both the design are wings position in terms of alignment to make the aircraft more aero dynamic and also to reduce drag, Tejas MK-2 will also have design changes to its fuselage and will have a bigger wing to carry heaver payload, Tejas Mk-2 will also be able to carry more internal fuel due to improvement in fuselage design and wing


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## sudhir007

> So the total will be.. 40+86+56+16 = 198


so the total no. Touch to 200
Iaf going only for 102(86+16) Mk-2 is'nt very small no.


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## rockstarIN

IndianArmy said:


> Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is currently working on two different design variant for Tejas MK-2, while major changes in both the design are wings position in terms of alignment to make the aircraft more aero dynamic and also to reduce drag, Tejas MK-2 will also have design changes to its fuselage and will have a bigger wing to carry heaver payload, Tejas Mk-2 will also be able to carry more internal fuel due to improvement in fuselage design and wing



So MK-2 is not a light fighter anymore, It can be regarded as MRCA right?


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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> So MK-2 is not a light fighter anymore, It can be regarded as MRCA right?



Not Really, Dont know, Lets wait and See In Which Class It falls Under..


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## anathema

rockstar said:


> Mk-1 will run with GE engine and MK-2 with Kaveri/Eurojet engine?
> 
> What else is the diff in Mk1 & Mk2?



There has been countless discussions on what will be different on this very thread -- you can search for detailed info.

Some of the major ones-

1) Aesa radar
2) a new EW suite Mayavi co-developed with Israel.
3) Increasing length of wings to carry more payload.


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## rockstarIN

*Prototypes*
Model of Tejas Naval version
Conceptual drawing of the Naval LCA
LCA Trainer

Aircraft already built and projected models to be built. Model designations, tail numbers and dates of first flight are shown.

Technology Demonstrators (TD)

* TD-1 (KH2001) - 4 Jan 2001
* TD-2 (KH2002) - 6 June 2002

Prototype Vehicles (PV)

* PV-1 (KH2003) - 25 November 2003
* PV-2 (KH2004) - 1 December 2005
* PV-3 (KH2005) - 1 December 2006 - This is the production variant.
* PV-4 - Originally planned to be a Naval variant for carrier operations, but now a second production variant.
* PV-5 (KH-T2009) - 26 November 2009 - Fighter/Trainer Variant

Naval Prototypes (NP)

* NP-1 - Two-seat Naval variant for carrier operations.Rolled out on July, 2010.[62]
* NP-2 - Single-seat Naval variant for carrier operations.

Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft

Currently, 28 LSP series aircraft plus 20 aircraft are on order.

* LSP-1 (KH2011) - 25 April 2007
* LSP-2 (KH2012) - 16 June 2008 This is the first LCA fitted with GE-404 IN20 engine.
* LSP-3 23 April 2010 The first aircraft to have the Hybrid MMR radar[28][41] and will be close to the IOC standard.
** LSP-4 (KH2014) - 2 June 2010 The first aircraft that was flown in the configuration that will be delivered to the Indian Air Force[42] In addition to the Hybrid MMR, the aircraft also flew with a functioning Countermeasure Dispensing System [63]*
* LSP-5 - Planned to fly by June 2010. In addition to all the systems fitted in LSP-4, it will have night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.[63]
* LSP-6 to LSP-28 - Planned to fly by late 2010.



So by Dec. 27th, LSP-4 & LSP-5 will get transferred to IAF .


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## IndianArmy

Self Delete


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> So MK-2 is not a light fighter anymore, It can be regarded as MRCA right?


It wil simply not fall into that catagory because it iwill not be a twin engine fighter.

MRCA will have significant land, aerial and sea attack capability, with larger payloads. LCA in brief will not be there anyday for its lesser payload and not being a mlulti role platform.


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## IndianArmy

Dash said:


> It wil simply not fall into that catagory because it iwill not be a twin engine fighter.
> 
> MRCA will have significant land, aerial and sea attack capability, with larger payloads. LCA in brief will not be there anyday for its lesser payload and not being a mlulti role platform.



Well Sir, there are Single Engined Fighters Like Grippen who fall into the category of MRCA, And LCA MK 2 will be a New Design according to HAL Chairman.... Lets Keep the fingers crossed


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> It wil simply not fall into that catagory because it iwill not be a twin engine fighter.
> 
> MRCA will have significant land, aerial and sea attack capability, with larger payloads. LCA in brief will not be there anyday for its lesser payload and not being a mlulti role platform.



F-16 & Grippen is single engined air crafts.


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> F-16 & Grippen is single engined air crafts.


They do, but look at the T/W of these A/c which makes them carry better weapons with larger loads.
F-16 and Gripen have better weapons package.

The MRCA states that an aircraft has to be multirole to be in this tender.
Which means A multirole (or multi-role) combat aircraft is an aircraft that can be used as both a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft and also can be configured for maritime strike mode.

If you look at the bomb rack for LCA, lete say you give it a Ground targeting POD and a Tank, its weapon carrying ability reduces. where in case of Gripen- NG and F-16 block 60, its not the same.

All F-16, Gripen and LCa dont come into Heavy class. where F-16 is medium multirole class and Gripen is an intermediate class btn light and medium with multirole.


Like Indian Army Sir said -

The key here LCA in future say in MK2 will have more multirole abilities when they increase the weapons load and give a better engine for increased TW ratio.

Its certainly not multirole now.

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## Tejas-MkII

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/09/15/awx_09_15_2010_p0-254982.xml

Indian LCA Undergoing Sea Trials

Sep 15, 2010

By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India

India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is currently undergoing sea trials at NAS Hansa, at Dabolim in Goa.

This is part of Tejas&#8217;s out-of-station flight-test plan, with pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center performing high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuvers.

A source tells AVIATION WEEK that *Tejas will undergo parameter identification (PID) and sea-level flutter vibration tests, with an all-external stores (bombs, fuel tanks, missiles) configuration.*

&#8220;The PID is done [with] latest software version of the digital flight control computer being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment,&#8221; the source says. &#8220;*There are many system integration checks and weapon modes to be tested. We need to check some more sea-level performance points in high-AOA mode.*&#8221;

*The Tejas took part in earlier trials at NAS Hansa, during which it fired a missile, and will undergo extensive weapon testing next month*. *A large contingent of engineers, scientists, pilots and ground crew are in Goa for the trials, which will continue until next week.*

Five Tejas aircraft from the flight line are expected to participate in the sea trials.

&#8220;*Radar assessment at sea level for air-to-air and air-to-sea mode will also be tested*,&#8221; the source says. &#8220;The Tejas will be flown at different altitudes and Mach numbers, while the flutter test will be done with various external configurations.&#8221;

The trials are critical for the Tejas program, which is moving toward completing all pre-initial operational clearance requirements.

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## Tejas-MkII

May be thats the reason ,why there are so much less number of flights by LSP-3 & 4 ......

wairing for good news


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## IndianArmy

*Pics of LCA Limited Series Production A/C*


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## IndianArmy

*LCA Cockpit*


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## SpArK

*Tejas party at NAS Hansa: 5 LCAs in Goa for sea-trials; AOA, PID & flutter tests on the cards.*








*Indias Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is currently undergoing sea trials at NAS Hansa, at Dabolim in Goa.* 


This is part of Tejass out-of-station flight-test plan, with pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center performing high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuvers.


A source tells AVIATION WEEK that Tejas will undergo parameter identification (PID) and sea-level flutter vibration tests, with an all-external stores (bombs, fuel tanks, missiles) configuration.

The PID is done [with] latest software version of the digital flight control computer being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment, the source says. There are many system integration checks and weapon modes to be tested. We need to check some more sea-level performance points in high-AOA mode.

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Defence blog with a difference: Tejas party at NAS Hansa: 5 LCAs in Goa for sea-trials; AOA, PID & flutter tests on the cards

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1428 Test Flights successfully. (17-Sep-10).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-165, PV3-229,LSP1-59,LSP2-158,PV5-17, LSP3-14,LSP4-6)


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## Tejas-MkII

Eurojet pips GE in LCA engine bid

Eurojet pips GE in LCA engine bid 

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi September 20, 2010, 23:35 IST 



Europe has an edge over the US in the tightly-fought contest to sell India a next-generation engine for the homegrown Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA). Informed sources have told Business Standard that when the bids were opened last week, *European consortium Eurojet bid $666 million for 99 EJ200 engines, against US rival General Electric, which quoted $822 million.*

Both engines had been earlier adjudged technically suitable to power the Tejas Mark-II. Therefore, according to the ministry of defences procurement rules, the vendor offering the lower price is to be handed the contract.

But the champagne corks arent popping yet at Eurojet. Both engine-makers have been asked for certain clarifications by Wednesday, and senior Eurojet executives are worried that Washington could pressure New Delhi to opt for the US engine in the interregnum.

At stake here is far more than a few hundred million dollars. Industry experts say Indias choice of engine for the Tejas would significantly shape the choice of a medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), an $11-billion contract for which the Indian Air Force is evaluating six fighters. Of these, the Eurofighter has twin EJ-200 engines, while GE F-414 engines power the US-built F/A-18 and Swedens Gripen NG fighters.

Says Air Vice Marshall (Retd) Kapil Kak of the Centre for Air Power Studies, the IAFs official think tank, *It is as clear as daylight. Selecting the EJ200 for the Tejas would boost the Eurofighters prospects in the MMRCA contest.*

Its engines, which form about 15-20 per cent of the cost of a modern fighter, would be already manufactured in India for the Tejas. For the same reason, rejecting the GE F-414 would diminish the chances of the two fighters that fly with that engine, he added.

In its tender for the Tejas engine, the defence ministry has specified that only ten engines could be built abroad. All subsequent engines must be built in India, with the vendor transferring technology for their manufacture. *If the EJ200 were built in India for the Tejas, Eurofighter would benefit from a fully amortised engine line and also be entitled to offset credits for the made-in-India Eurofighter EJ200 engines. This would lower the price of the Eurofighter  a huge advantage for an aircraft regarded as high performance, but expensive. Logistically, too, the IAF would prefer an MMRCA with engines that were already in its inventory.*

Selection of the GE F-414 engine, on the other hand, would provide all these advantages to the vendors of the F/A-18 and the Gripen NG fighters. This is a key reason why Eurojet and GE have conducted their Tejas engine campaign so competitively.

Furthermore, the order for 99 engines for the Tejas Mark-II is just a foot in the door to the Indian market. Given that each fighter goes through two to three engines during its operational lifetime, the four to five planned squadrons (84-105 fighters) of the Tejas Mark-II would actually need 200-300 new engines. The 126 MMRCAs could use several hundred more.

Business Standard had earlier reported on the European aerospace industrys plan to enhance its presence in Indias military programmes through Eurofighter and the MMRCA contest. The first move by EADS was to provide consultancy to accelerate flight-testing of the Tejas; now comes the second move: bidding aggressively to win the Tejas engine contract.

*Defence ministry sources have expressed surprise that Eurojet bid 20 per cent cheaper than rival General Electric, which is widely regarded as a cost-effective manufacturer*. In fact, conversations with EADS executives reveal that this is a well-considered business strategy.

Sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency confirm that both GE and Eurojet engines fully met the technical requirements to power the Tejas Mark-II. *The EJ200  which IAF favours  is the more modern, lighter and flexible engine with greater potential for growth. The GE F-414 is heavier, but provides a little more power.*

Eurojet is a consortium between Avio (Italy), ITP (Spain), MTU Aero Engines (Germany) and Rolls-Royce (UK), which was set up to develop the EJ200 engine for the Eurofighter. It is headquartered in Hallbergmoos, Germany

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## redpearl75

and if Im not wrong then the EJ200 is also kneen in offerring the TVC as an added advantage which if selected would enhance LCA's performance to a far greater extent....


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## sudhir007

Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

India&#8217;s Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA &#8212; which oversees the Tejas programme &#8212; is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option.


An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.

The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement &#8212; of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine &#8212; should go ahead.


The IAF&#8217;s second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any &#8220;joint development&#8221;.



Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma&#8217;s new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.



For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF&#8217;s accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas&#8217; current performance shortfalls.


Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in &#8220;joint development&#8221;. Since India&#8217;s futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) &#8212; the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine &#8212; has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.




The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.
Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, &#8220;Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters&#8221 that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri &#8220;requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft.&#8221;



But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: &#8220;There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200.&#8221;
According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.


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## rockstarIN

redpearl75 said:


> and if Im not wrong then the EJ200 is also kneen in offerring the TVC as an added advantage which if selected would enhance LCA's performance to a far greater extent....



I favour Euro Fighter for MMRCA & EJ200 for LCA Engine, since they only planning for TVC in the coming variants.


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## SpArK

*Powering LCA Mk-2: GE F-414 vs EJ-200; talks shift to Delhi; decision soon*


After months of extended analysis, comparison studies, and calculations, the hunt for a suitable engine for Tejas Mk-II seems to have reached the final phase. The contenders -- GE F-414 and EJ-200 -- are equally confident that they would make it to India's Tejas.
MoD sources confirm that the negotiations have now shifted to Delhi (from Bangalore) and there are couple of issues need to be sorted out. All top officials associated with the project have now reached Delhi on Sunday night and the next two days might be crucial. The Tejas is currently undergoing sea-trials in Goa.
A section of Indian media have been reporting for the last one month that EJ-200 is/will be the likely choice, but MoD sources refuse to say anything official yet. "We are continuing the talks from today," an official said.
Stay tuned for the latest.


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## SpArK

*Eurojet pips GE in LCA engine bid*


Europe has an edge over the US in the tightly-fought contest to sell India a next-generation engine for the homegrown Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA). Informed sources have told Business Standard that when the bids were opened last week, European consortium Eurojet bid $666 million for 99 EJ200 engines, against US rival General Electric, which quoted $822 million.

Both engines had been earlier adjudged technically suitable to power the Tejas Mark-II. Therefore, according to the ministry of defence&#8217;s procurement rules, the vendor offering the lower price is to be handed the contract.


But the champagne corks aren&#8217;t popping yet at Eurojet. Both engine-makers have been asked for certain clarifications by Wednesday, and senior Eurojet executives are worried that Washington could pressure New Delhi to opt for the US engine in the interregnum.
At stake here is far more than a few hundred million dollars. Industry experts say India&#8217;s choice of engine for the Tejas would significantly shape the choice of a medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), an $11-billion contract for which the Indian Air Force is evaluating six fighters. Of these, the Eurofighter has twin EJ-200 engines, while GE F-414 engines power the US-built F/A-18 and Sweden&#8217;s Gripen NG fighters.

Says Air Vice Marshall (Retd) Kapil Kak of the Centre for Air Power Studies, the IAF&#8217;s official think tank, *&#8220;It is as clear as daylight. Selecting the EJ200 for the Tejas would boost the Eurofighter&#8217;s prospects in the MMRCA contest.&#8221;*

&#8220;*Its engines, which form about 15-20 per cent of the cost of a modern fighter, would be already manufactured in India for the Tejas. For the same reason, rejecting the GE F-414 would diminish the chances of the two fighters that fly with that engine,&#8221; he added.*

In its tender for the Tejas engine, the defence ministry has specified that* only ten engines could be built abroad. All subsequent engines must be built in India, with the vendor transferring technology for their manufacture. If the EJ200 were built in India for the Tejas, Eurofighter would benefit from a fully amortised engine line and also be entitled to offset credits for the &#8216;made-in-India&#8217; Eurofighter EJ200 engines. This would lower the price of the Eurofighter &#8212; a huge advantage for an aircraft regarded as high performance, but expensive. Logistically, too, the IAF would prefer an MMRCA with engines that were already in its inventory.*

Selection of the GE F-414 engine, on the other hand, would provide all these advantages to the vendors of the F/A-18 and the Gripen NG fighters. This is a key reason why Eurojet and GE have conducted their Tejas engine campaign so competitively.

Furthermore, the order for 99 engines for the Tejas Mark-II is just a foot in the door to the Indian market. Given that each fighter goes through two to three engines during its operational lifetime, the four to five planned squadrons (84-105 fighters) of the Tejas Mark-II would actually need 200-300 new engines. The 126 MMRCAs could use several hundred more.

Business Standard had earlier reported on the European aerospace industry&#8217;s plan to enhance its presence in India&#8217;s military programmes through Eurofighter and the MMRCA contest. The first move by EADS was to provide consultancy to accelerate flight-testing of the Tejas; now comes the second move: bidding aggressively to win the Tejas engine contract.

Defence ministry sources have expressed surprise that Eurojet bid 20 per cent cheaper than rival General Electric, which is widely regarded as a cost-effective manufacturer. In fact, conversations with EADS executives reveal that this is a well-considered business strategy.

Sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency confirm that both GE and Eurojet engines fully met the technical requirements to power the Tejas Mark-II. The EJ200 &#8212; which IAF favours &#8212; is the more modern, lighter and flexible engine with greater potential for growth. The GE F-414 is heavier, but provides a little more power.

Eurojet is a consortium between Avio (Italy), ITP (Spain), MTU Aero Engines (Germany) and Rolls-Royce (UK), which was set up to develop the EJ200 engine for the Eurofighter. It is headquartered in Hallbergmoos, Germany.


Eurojet pips GE in LCA engine bid


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## SpArK

*Indian-made "brilliant" light fighter began sea trials *

At 2:52 p.m. on the September 20, 2010 *China's National Defense Science and Technology News Network*







According to the U.S., "Aviation Week" September 16, 2010 reported that the Indian self-developed "*glorious*" (Tejas, or LCA) light fighter aircraft currently in fruits &#38463;&#37030;&#36798;&#27874;&#37324;&#22982; airport Lufthansa (Hansa) Naval Air Station to the sea test.

This test flight mission from Bangalore National Centre (National Flight Test Center) pilot bear. According to the relevant source, "Tejas" will be all plug-in (including bombs, drop tanks and missiles) under the configuration parameter identification (parameter identification, PID) and sea-level flutter (sea-level flutter vibration) testing, conditions in the sea level will also air to air and air-sea model of the working state of airborne radar testing and evaluation.

As a "brilliant" fighter flight test field part of the plan, the sea trials of the project is critical. As planned, the future will be a total of five "Tejas" aircraft to participate in sea trials. (China Aviation Industry Development Research Center Chen Li)


???????????????????(?)_????_???


*Nice source*.

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## trident2010

They translated "tejas" directly. Brilliant, Glorious


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## SpArK

BUZZ: Eurojet Throttles Up For Tejas?









There's a lot of buzz over the Tejas Mk-II engine competition, with a flurry of reports suggesting that the Eurojet EJ200 is positioned to win the deal, and not close competitor General Electric with its F-414-400. *The connection between the Tejas Mk-2 engine and the MMRCA is inevitable, so first, let's get a couple of things out of the way as far as the Mk-2 question is concerned. Both the F-414 and EJ200 were equally compliant with the qualitative requirements of the Indian Air Force. Second, despite what either of the companies has said, there's a good deal of modification that both engines will require for integration with the Tejas -- both engines are dimensionally different too, with one short and stubby and the other longer and more slender*.

Both engine makers promise that they can modify their engines for the Tejas and complete certification in two years or less from the time of contract signing. For example, when I visited Eurojet headquarters near Munich in January, the company's managing director Hartmut Tenter said, "There will be some changes to the mounting assembly, a different hydraulic pump and an additional generator pack. In addition, engine interfaces might' need changes depending on how the LCA is configured. But we are confident of having a fully certified engine ready in less than two years."

*Both engine houses have been known to claim that the Tejas airframe will require no airframe changes for the new engine. Untrue. The Indian Air Force and HAL have both confirmed that the selection of either of the two engines will mean minor -- but not negligible -- changes to intake architecture, aft fuselage and engine interface structures on the Tejas airframe. How long that will take is a good question.
*


According to sources, GE's pitch -- technology and offsets aside -- has been underscored by the experience of the F-404, variants of which currently power the Tejas Mk-1. The company has also thought of the F-414 for the Tejas well before it was officially decided that a new engine would power the Mk-2. *Eurojet, on the other hand, has pitched the EJ200 with the very tempting notion of a dedicated EJ200 global production line in India, along with true qualitative technology transfer, that will include single crystal technology to HAL and GTRE.*

But none of this may actually matter now, since both engines have performed well and met all or at least most requirements, and have an approximately equal level of compliance.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: BUZZ: Eurojet Throttles Up For Tejas?

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## SpArK

Potentially three fundamentally different engines for the same airplane over three blocks?

The GE404, the EJ200 and then at some future date the Kaveri?


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## CONNAN

IAF Prefers Euro jet EJ200 engines for Tejas Mk-2

BY ADMIN AT 22 SEPTEMBER, 2010, 3:02 AM

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

It has been widely reported in main stream media that Indian air force prefers European Euro jet Ej-200 engines for Tejas Mk-2, main stream media reported that newer core design of the engines and growth potential of the engine in future along with the key transfer of technology to India was decision behind preference of this particular engines.

But sources close to idrw.org have told that IAF was not keen on regular Ge official visits to HAL facilities to check engine conditions in Bangalore, we were told that IAF was keen on GE&#8217;s F-414 engines earlier but it soon realized that time taken to integrate this Ge engines with Tejas Mk-2 will be same what Europeans will take , IAF team currently helping and working with ADA and HAL was miffed by denial of Consultation service for Tejas first to speed up its induction and its FOC and later American companies were again denied permission to consult on Naval Tejas Variant by US government , this could be main reason behind IAF becoming pro European in sudden change of heart . for both consultation European EADS makers of Euro Jet and Euro fighters were roped in .

IAF also is working with DRDO to change American engines which will be powering first 40 Engines with locally produced Kaveri engine way before 2018 time frame , IAF has already advised HAL and ADA to not to procure additional Ge engines for Tejas Mk-1 and replace them as soon as Kaveri engine hit production.

Categories : India


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## brahmastra

How good is tejas in Air-to-Ground/sea mode? what radar and weapons are integrated?


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## IndianArmy

brahmastra said:


> How good is tejas in Air-to-Ground/sea mode? what radar and weapons are integrated?



The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km.... Got the Info from *Wikipedia *

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## brahmastra

IndianArmy said:


> The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a *detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode*, *the air-to-ground* mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at *up to 150 km*, and *air-to-sea* mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of *up to 300 *km.... Got the Info from *Wikipedia *



I hope its true. And engagement range matches the detection and tracking range.
From the same source.
*To date, Elta Systems has integrated this radar system into F-4, F-5, F-16, Mirage and Mig-21.*

Is the range Good enough?


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## IndianArmy

brahmastra said:


> I hope its true. And engagement range matches the detection and tracking range.



Well Engagement range for Air to Sea Mode would Not match to that of Tracking Range


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## kingdurgaking

connanxlrc1000 said:


> IAF Prefers Euro jet EJ200 engines for Tejas Mk-2
> 
> BY ADMIN AT 22 SEPTEMBER, 2010, 3:02 AM
> 
> BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
> 
> It has been widely reported in main stream media that Indian air force prefers European Euro jet Ej-200 engines for Tejas Mk-2, main stream media reported that newer core design of the engines and growth potential of the engine in future along with the key transfer of technology to India was decision behind preference of this particular engines.
> 
> But sources close to idrw.org have told that IAF was not keen on regular Ge official visits to HAL facilities to check engine conditions in Bangalore, we were told that IAF was keen on GEs F-414 engines earlier but it soon realized that time taken to integrate this Ge engines with Tejas Mk-2 will be same what Europeans will take , IAF team currently helping and working with ADA and HAL was miffed by denial of Consultation service for Tejas first to speed up its induction and its FOC and later American companies were again denied permission to consult on Naval Tejas Variant by US government , this could be main reason behind IAF becoming pro European in sudden change of heart . for both consultation European EADS makers of Euro Jet and Euro fighters were roped in .
> 
> IAF also is working with DRDO to change American engines which will be powering first 40 Engines with locally produced Kaveri engine way before 2018 time frame , IAF has already advised HAL and ADA to not to procure additional Ge engines for Tejas Mk-1 and replace them as soon as Kaveri engine hit production.
> 
> Categories : India



befitting reply given to US..... they should be sidelined totally... I sincerely hope MMRCA also doesnt fall in US hands.. they have million markets around the world where they can sell there products.. neither we nor they should have any more concern on this military business


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## sudhir007

IndianArmy said:


> The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km.... Got the Info from *Wikipedia *


Sorry you are ronge I think it is indian radar MMR-hybird it has a processes of EL/M 2032 for A2G role.
http://indiandefencedirectory.blogspot.com/2010/06/tejas-lsp-345-will-spearhead-weapons.html


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## kingdurgaking

Has LSP 5 flown?? what is the status... it was supposed to fly long back.. if this has not flown.. what is the need for sea trials.. i heard that IAF craft is going to be closer to LSP 5+ series


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## sancho

IndianArmy said:


> Well Engagement range for Air to Sea Mode would Not match to that of Tracking Range



More interesting should be, which weapons will be available? The LGB that will be developed of course, but what A2G missile and what anti ship missiles if there will be one anyway, because the MKIs and MMRCAs will be better in that role for sure (longer range, more weapon stations and payload...).


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1442 Test Flights successfully. (21-Sep-10).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-172, PV3-233,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-6)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1431 Test Flights successfully. (19-Sep-10).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-165, PV3-229,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-6)


11 filight in 2 days in Goa. So sea & weapon trial is in full flag.


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## kingdurgaking

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1442 Test Flights successfully. (21-Sep-10).
> 
> 
> * (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-172, PV3-233,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-6)
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1431 Test Flights successfully. (19-Sep-10).
> 
> 
> * (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-165, PV3-229,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-6)
> 
> 
> 11 filight in 2 days in Goa. So sea & weapon trial is in full flag.




hmm LSP3 and LSP4 contains radar... do other series also have radar?? if not without radars what weapons testing is being carried??  .. as LSP3 and LSP4 havent got any update


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## sudhir007

kingdurgaking said:


> hmm LSP3 and LSP4 contains radar... do other series also have radar?? if not without radars what weapons testing is being carried??  .. as LSP3 and LSP4 havent got any update



sorry currently only *LSP-3 & LSP-4* have radar(MMR Hybird radar) or complete stuff those needed in ioc. it will be add more f/a next will be *LSP-5 come with better cockpit(mean more pilot friendly) *


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## kingdurgaking

sudhir007 said:


> sorry currently only *LSP-3 & LSP-4* has radar(MMR Hybird radar) or complete stuff those needed in ioc. it will be add more f/a next will be *LSP-5 come with better cockpit(mean more pilot friendly) *



When is LSP-5 going to fly any idea?? why LSP-3, 4 are not involved in Goa??


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## sudhir007

kingdurgaking said:


> When is LSP-5 going to fly any idea?? why LSP-3, 4 are not involved in Goa??



Last i hear it will be added on sep last week or oct Ist week rytnow it is going for undergoing ground trails. Both are involve in flight test in goa


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## Desi Sher

Angle of Attack has learnt that the Radar tested on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. Complete information is still not available but it is confirmed that the radar was AESA bring India in a club of select few nations. So far only the Americans have a AESA radar in service on their F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. UAE also has AESA radar on their F-16 Block 60 which is also of American origin. Many other countries are currently testing and developing AESA radar.
According to past reports the AESA radar could have had a Indian Antenna, radome and scanner with a Israeli processor. This might be sketchy but this all Angle of Attack knows right now. The aircraft also had a new air data processor, Radar warning receiver and a new navigation and communication system bring the aircraft very close to its IOC standard.
Project director P.S Subramanyam said that all the testing necessary to receive the IOC certificate are done except the flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance which will be done once LSP-4 and LSP-5 start flying. According to him LSP-4 will be ready in a month and the LSP-5 will be ready a week later after LSP-4. Hence we can conclude that IOC certificate could be received by the Tejas within 6-7 months from now.


Angle of Attack: LCA Radar is a AESA.


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## Tejas-MkII

^^^^

If it is true then why did DRDO declare it officially.....


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## kingdurgaking

Desi Sher said:


> Angle of Attack has learnt that the Radar tested on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. Complete information is still not available but it is confirmed that the radar was AESA bring India in a club of select few nations. So far only the Americans have a AESA radar in service on their F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. UAE also has AESA radar on their F-16 Block 60 which is also of American origin. Many other countries are currently testing and developing AESA radar.
> According to past reports the AESA radar could have had a Indian Antenna, radome and scanner with a Israeli processor. This might be sketchy but this all Angle of Attack knows right now. The aircraft also had a new air data processor, Radar warning receiver and a new navigation and communication system bring the aircraft very close to its IOC standard.
> Project director P.S Subramanyam said that all the testing necessary to receive the IOC certificate are done except the flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance which will be done once LSP-4 and LSP-5 start flying. According to him LSP-4 will be ready in a month and the LSP-5 will be ready a week later after LSP-4. Hence we can conclude that IOC certificate could be received by the Tejas within 6-7 months from now.
> 
> 
> Angle of Attack: LCA Radar is a AESA.



Very old news and it is not AESA


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## Desi Sher

kingdurgaking said:


> Very old news and it is not AESA



Read whats written Below that radar. Its Written "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft" ... It sure would be a pain in the eyes


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## kingdurgaking

Desi Sher said:


> Read whats written Below that radar. Its Written "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft" ... It sure would be a pain in the eyes



I am not sure.. last time i heard in BR we are struggling to miniaturize it to fit in the LCA cone nose and we were running into serious cooling issue... thats why we invited some partner for some components... and the whole of MMRCA is looked for AESA TOT.. correct me if i am wrong..


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## Dash

Desi Sher said:


> Read whats written Below that radar. Its Written "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft" ... It sure would be a pain in the eyes


Acordin to last official reports LCA used Israeli Elta 2032 radar which is not an AESA radar. I seriously doubt that its AESA radar, the AESA version of the same radar is Elta-2052. and that not what we have used.

Our own AESA is not ready yet, we are still working with Israel to fix the issues.


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## Desi Sher

Dash said:


> Acordin to last official reports LCA used Israeli Elta 2032 radar which is not an AESA radar. I seriously doubt that its AESA radar, the AESA version of the same radar is Elta-2052. and that not what we have used.
> 
> Our own AESA is not ready yet, we are still working with Israel to fix the issues.



I do Not Know Dude, Its written On that First Pic, you can zoom it and see... U can read it.... "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft"


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## kingdurgaking

Desi Sher said:


> I do Not Know Dude, Its written On that First Pic, you can zoom it and see... U can read it.... "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft"



I know buddy what you are pointing to.. it could be a mock up display.. we havent matured so much into that field yet... we will be there very soon.. First lets release our own AWACS then we will see this happening very soon..


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## SpArK

any update on this one????


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## Desi Sher

kingdurgaking said:


> I know buddy what you are pointing to.. it could be a mock up display.. we havent matured so much into that field yet... we will be there very soon.. First lets release our own AWACS then we will see this happening very soon..



Well Do You Know something, Making a Mock up model for an AESA Radar only Signifies that we have Completed the Miniaturization of the AESA to be fixed on LCA, Even if its a Mock up or an original It Brings us a good news


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## kingdurgaking

Desi Sher said:


> Well Do You Know something, Making a Mock up model for an AESA Radar only Signifies that we have Completed the Miniaturization of the AESA to be fixed on LCA, Even if its a Mock up or an original It Brings us a good news



 if that is so i would drop cake of sweets on your mouth... nowerdays no big news is coming out.. i guess it is because of CWG... all of sudden all defence related news seems to be silent.. any one could feel that??


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## Dash

Desi Sher said:


> I do Not Know Dude, Its written On that First Pic, you can zoom it and see... U can read it.... "Active Electronically Scanned phased Array radar for light combact Aircraft"


I know buddy, I read it, and thats why I said "according to official reports". This report is not official at all. These guys will publish if the find someone whispering AESA in ADA, and say we have learnt that LCA is using AESA..!!

Dont go by these reports.



> Well Do You Know something, Making a Mock up model for an AESA Radar only Signifies that we have Completed the Miniaturization of the AESA to be fixed on LCA, Even if its a Mock up or an original It Brings us a good news



If you are talking about BENNY's post then know that its not our mock up. Its ELTA from Israel that showcased this radar 2052 which is an AESA, we use 2032. 

Dont worry when LCA will have AESA the whole world will know. most probably it will our own AESA or ELTA 2052 radar.


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## Dash

BENNY said:


> any update on this one????


Nothing......We were considering this for LCA but no progress so far. Looks like if the Indian RADAR fails or gets delayed, this will go to Tejas Mk2.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> any update on this one????



As far as to my knowledge there was an tender issued for foreign vendors.. nothing improved on that front.. i guess it is still struck there only


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## kingdurgaking

A news being out stating that GE has won the competition for supplying engines

Tarmak007 -- An Indian Defence blog with a difference: It's GE F-414 for LCA Mk-II; EJ-200 loses the race in photo finish

Cant believe this... Is this another story coocked up or it is real??

I dont want GE to win this


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## rockstarIN

Its official now, GE wins the contract

GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence


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## SpArK

*Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine
​*








Eurojet Gmbh has accepted defeat in the Tejas Mk-II engine competition. Just received this statement from the company:

"We respect the decision taken by the Price Negotiating Committee. However, we regret that the Committee has decided against the most capable & latest generation engine on offer for the LCA-Tejas.

Together with our consortium partner companies and their respective governments we will carefully study the decision and its implications. We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection. This decision does not affect our strong commitment to India. We will continue to explore true and trusted partnerships here which will support the development of a strong Indian aerospace and defence industry."


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine


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## SpArK

*GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014​* 







2010-09-30 The GE F414 engine has been identified to power the HAL Tejas Mk-II fighter jet as it was the lowest bidder as compared to the Eurojet EJ200. GE F404 engine was employed throughout the development cycle of the HAL Tejas fighter jet also known as the Light Combat Aircraft.

This information was announced in a DRDO statement:

"THE PRICE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE FOR THE ALTERNATE ENGINE FOR LCA MK-2 HAS FINALIZED THE COMPARATIVE STATEMENT OF TENDERS. THE COMMITTEE HAD ITS REPRESENTATIONS FROM MINISTRY OF DEFENCE, DEFENCE FINANCE, ADA, DRDO, HAL, INDIAN AIR FORCE, AND INDIAN NAVY. AFTER EVALUATION AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE TECHNICAL OFFER PROVIDED BY BOTH EUROJET AND GE AVIATION, THE COMMERCIAL QUOTES WERE COMPARED IN DETAIL AND GE AVIATION WAS DECLARED AS THE LOWEST BIDDER. FURTHER PRICE NEGOTIATIONS AND CONTRACT FINALIZATION WILL FOLLOW."

DRDO Chief Dr. Prahlada's comments:

"PRICE NEGOTIATIONS AND CONTRACT FINALIZATION WILL BE WORKED IN THE NEXT TWO MONTHS...G*E AVIATION WILL DELIVER 20 GE-414 ENGINES FROM 2014 AND THE REST WILL BE MANUFACTURED IN INDIA UNDER TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO OUR DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS*...THE GE-414 ENGINES WILL BE DEVELOPED BY THE GAS TURBINE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT (GTRE) IN BANGALORE IN COLLABORATION WITH OTHER DRDO AGENCIES SUCH AS AERONAUTICAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY AND HAL...WE HAVE DECIDED TO GO FOR A NEW ENGINE FOR THE LCA MK-2 AFTER THE INDIAN AIR FORCE (IAF) SOUGHT A BETTER ENGINE WITH HIGHER RATE OF PERFORMANCE IN TERMS OF SPEED, THRUST AND VECTOR THAN GE-404 ENGINES BEING USED IN LCA MARK-1"

GE Aviation's contention for this deal was first reported in September 2009. GE Aviation's competitor - the Eurojet EJ-200 was a strong contender for this deal.

*The selection of GE F414 for the HAL Tejas Mk-II will also strengthen the bids of Boeing F/A-18 and SAAB Gripen in the USD $10 billion Indian Air Force Multirole Combat Air Craft (MRCA) deal.*


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## luckyyy

> THE GE-414 ENGINES WILL BE DEVELOPED BY THE GAS TURBINE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT (GTRE) IN BANGALORE IN COLLABORATION WITH OTHER DRDO AGENCIES SUCH AS AERONAUTICAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY



presently GTRE , DRDO , ADA all are under US senctions !


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## Tejas-MkII

luckyyy said:


> presently GTRE , DRDO , ADA all are under US senctions !



May be in the coming Obama visit they will clear all the sanctions.....


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## gogbot

Tejas-MkII said:


> May be in the coming Obama visit they will clear all the sanctions.....



Nice joke.

Even ISRO is under sanctions.


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## SpArK

gogbot said:


> Nice joke.
> 
> Even ISRO is under sanctions.



I dont think ISRO is under sanction.. then how did chandrayan happen??


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Originally Posted by Tejas-MkII View Post
"May be in the coming Obama visit they will clear all the sanctions....."


A.K. Antony has already raised the issue in Washington.


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## sudhir007

> GE AVIATION WILL DELIVER 20 GE-414 ENGINES FROM 2014 AND THE REST WILL BE MANUFACTURED IN INDIA UNDER TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO OUR DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS


if we get Ist engine in 2014 then when we start testing is it mean IAF get Ist sqn of lca-mk2 after 3-4 yr 2017-2018 ??????


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## Archie

sudhir007 said:


> if we get Ist engine in 2014 then when we start testing is it mean IAF get Ist sqn of lca-mk2 after 3-4 yr 2017-2018 ??????



Not really ,Development of LCA MK2 will begin once Lca MK1 starts entering service ie they achieve IOC which is expected in december 
Iaf already operate 4 Tejas which are of LSP4 standard 
Currently 5 tejas aircraft are undergoing Certification process for IOC
these include 2 aircraft of LSP4 Std , 1 Aircraft of LSP 5 std and 2 aircraft of LSP3 Std
It is expected that after IOC is complete ,42 aircraft of LSP 5 Std will be built by 2014 , while 6 Aircraft of LSP 4 std will be upgraded to LSP 5 STD
Finally First Tejas Sqd will be operationalise in may 2011 when the total of aircraft will be 12 ( 6 new built LSP 5 AND 6 converted LSP4)

*My point is that development of Tejas MK2 will begin once Tejas MK1 moves from ADA to HAL production line
Well GE will provide 1-2 engine for development and integration work for MK2 like they did with Mk1
as u must note that Tejas Mk1 flew with GE F404 engine before the deal was signed for purchase of 28 GE F404 to power the Tejas , this was followed by another deal for 20 engines .
*


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## TheWarriorIndian

A nice Photo shopped Photo of LCA Tejas Chasing JF-17


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## kingdurgaking

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "LCA Far Ahead Of JF-17 In Contemporary Technology": IAF Western Commander

Some news about LCA


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## jha

^^Another Masterpiece (read useless) article by Shiv Aroor..He is worst of his kind..


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## Tejas-MkII

Well he is not wrong totally but the fact is JF-17 is in service in PAF, though in limited number for now and LCA is gona have IOC in coming december.


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## Tejas-MkII

GE Aviation: GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program

October 01, 2010
GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program
--LYNN, MASSACHUSETTS -- India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has selected 99 F414 GE fighter jet engines to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force. 

John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India.* GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement.*" 

*The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding Air Force and Naval requirements.* Technical advances include a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features. 

"We are extremely pleased with the ADA's decision and are confident India's technical expertise will help enhance the F414-powered LCA's mission superiority well into the 21st century," said Tony Mathis, general manager of Lynn Military Systems programs at GE Aviation. 

This selection follows earlier orders of 24 F404 GE engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes. 

With more than one million flight hours, the F414 engine continues to exceed United States Navy goals for reliability and time on wing. To date, more than 1,000 F414 engines have been delivered, supporting more than 415 aircraft in the fleet. 

GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE (NYSE: GE), is a world-leading provider of jet and turboprop engines, components and integrated systems for commercial, military, business and general aviation aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings.


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## Tejas-MkII

F414 -GE-400 have thrust of 98kn and they are saying it is the highest thrust model so we can safely assume that it will be 100+ KN thrust engine for LCA......


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## SpArK

> In the initial commercial bids, opened in mid-September, *Eurojet ($666 million) had bid lower than GE ($822 million).* But, after two weeks of intensive evaluation by a defence ministry price negotiating committee, GE has been ruled the cheaper option.
> After evaluation and acceptance of the technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. Further price negotiations and contract finalisation will follow, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) announced today.
> 
> DRDO insiders say the price negotiating committee held several meetings for clarifications with Eurojet and GE representatives since the commercial bids were opened. After factoring in these clarifications, the GE engine was found to be cheaper.
> 
> The decision to buy the GE engine had been taken last week, but was only announced today in Bangalore in the presence of representatives from both companies.
> 
> *Eurojet executives complain that a revised bid, submitted by them last night, was not taken into account*.




was it a fair deal????


Broadsword: American engine to power LCA: but Eurojet remains optimistic


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## karan.1970

surprisingly, the GE stock hasnt moved much today barely 1&#37;


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## kingdurgaking

karan.1970 said:


> surprisingly, the GE stock hasnt moved much today barely 1%



It will move up once they get approval from US Govt.. Which will be seen as a positive sign for MMRCA also..

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## gogbot

kingdurgaking said:


> It will move up once they get approval from US Govt.. Which will be seen as a positive sign for MMRCA also..



For a Company Like GE this order alone is not enough of Big news.
GE Supplies the US military on much larger scale.

Something Like the MMRCA will more of Big deal as that will seem like a much larger and longer term investment.

We don't have as big a buyers advantage as we do with the Europeans and Russian. When Buying from the Americans.

Sheer Size and Scale of US orders can Shadow Indian ones .


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## karan.1970

gogbot said:


> For a Company Like GE this order alone is not enough of Big news.
> GE Supplies the US military on much larger scale.
> 
> Something Like the MMRCA will more of Big deal as that will seem like a much larger and longer term investment.



You are right, but look at it this way. A 100 million dollar assured business and increased chances of another 300 million dollar order (chances of FA 18 getting stronger) plays on sentiment.

I agree that for a company with close to 150 billion dollars in annual revenue, its peanuts, but then when has that stopped stock markets from going nuts 

I was expecting a sentiment driven rally specially since the GE stock has been in the dumps without any positive news for over 2 years now


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## kingdurgaking

gogbot said:


> For a Company Like GE this order alone is not enough of Big news.
> GE Supplies the US military on much larger scale.
> 
> Something Like the MMRCA will more of Big deal as that will seem like a much larger and longer term investment.
> 
> We don't have as big a buyers advantage as we do with the Europeans and Russian. When Buying from the Americans.
> 
> Sheer Size and Scale of US orders can Shadow Indian ones .



GE Aviation where in trouble waters for some time especially on F35 front .. But recent orders from US navy & India + already Aussie will boost the investor confidence... 1 billion $ + more on future orders will raise the investors confidence on the company when the agreement is signed...


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## sudhir007

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: How GE's Tejas MK-II Win Affects The MMRCA. Or Doesn't.

In a little over two months from now, the Indian Ministry of Defence will approve the Indian Air Force's field trial evaluation report and begin commercial negotiations with what the IAF hopes will be a downselected list of vendors. Remember, the IAF has not explicitly indicated a downselect, leaving it to the MoD to understand this from the level of compliance index.

Now, there's an overwhelming sense that India's selection of the GE F414 engine makes things much, much clearer about the MMRCA competition, and narrows things down considerably. For clarity's sake, variants of the F414 power the Boeing F/A-18 IN Super Hornet and the next generation Saab Gripen IN, while the Eurojet EJ200 -- which lost to GE in the Tejas MK-II competition -- powers the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The logic was always compelling. A dedicated licensed engine production line in the country for the Tejas MK-II would provide robust economy of scale advantages and funnel down the contenders in the MMRCA. That's how it probably should happen, but will it? Another matter altogether. Some scenarios:

SCENARIO 1: At least six IAF officers I spoke to suggested that it would be wrong to connect the Tejas MK-II and the MMRCA on too many levels. One of them suggested that the two deals were mutually exclusive, with a sharp line dividing the two -- in other words, the decision on one had no way of influencing the other. Therefore, in this scenario, the GE F414 selection provides no tangible advantages, going forward in the MMRCA, to the F/A-18 and Gripen NG, even though those advantages would normally shout loud. When I asked an Air Marshal, formerly at Eastern Air Command HQ, how this could be justified -- considering how it goes headlong against the economies of scale notion -- he said, "You must understand that each deal is a leverage in itself. The government can choose to draw connections and give the country the most effective deal. Or it could keep everything separate and leave all options open for maximum leverage. In my understanding, the government would not hand GE an automatic victory in the MMRCA as a default result of the Tejas MK-II selection. That is not how things happen in India." The other crucial point here is: if the GE victory wasn't politically premeditated, then there exists no procedural route for the Tejas MK-II engine selection to be taken into account in a potential MMRCA downselect. In other words, if the MMRCA is sticking unflinchingly to the RFP (as the Indian Defence Minister recently stated in Washington, and reiterated yesterday by Air Marshal NAK Browne, the IAF's Western Command chief), then GE's win would/could have no direct bearing on the MMRCA downselect simply because there is no official route for it to do so. The last critical point: the F414 engine that will be built in India under tech-transfer, will be a modified engine for the Tejas. If an F414-powered airplane happens to be selected in the MMRCA, then it is likely that there will be two lines, or a fork in the main line.

SCENARIO 2: The opposite scenario. Here, the government decides that a dedicated GE F414 engine line in the country means it makes sense to narrow down the selection based on the economies of engine scale logic. In other words, you have the Gripen going against the Super Hornet in the MMRCA finals.

SUB-SCENARIO 2 (a) But there are important points to remember here to: two extravagantly different aircraft, same engine in different configurations. The US government would obviously support the F/A-18, and GE would clearly prefer the F/A-18, since it's American and a twin-engine platform, so it means double the number of engines sold by GE as compared to the number it would sell if India chose the Gripen. In this scenario, the GE F414 economies of scale and political considerations would push the F/A-18 to the top of the list.

SUB-SCENARIO 2 (b) In this scenario, the government decides it already has economies of scale, and pushes the Gripen forward as a perceived compromise: the cheaper aircraft, with American engine and weapons. The US cannot exercise export licensing controls on the Gripen's GE engine since each vendor had to submit a signed affidavit before field trials that all systems listed in their bid documents were available, and needed no further approvals from any government. Remember, the IAF has said it won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). But now it's up to the MoD.

SCENARIO 3: In this scenario, the GE victory in the Tejas MK-II engine competition, has a reverse effect on the MMRCA, and pushes the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale and F-16 (the MiG-35 is all but officially confirmed to be out) to the top of the pile, since alternate engines provide their own leverage. Scenarios 2 & 3 are of course assuming the government won't look at the Tejas MK-II and the MMRCA as "two watertight compartments" as an officer put it.


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## rockstarIN

Tejas-MkII said:


> F414 -GE-400 have thrust of 98kn and they are saying it is the highest thrust model so we can safely assume that it will be 100+ KN thrust engine for LCA......



Wht the trust of Mk1 Engine(Old GE engine)?


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## sudhir007

rockstar said:


> Wht the trust of Mk1 Engine(Old GE engine)?



Dry thrust = 52kn
afterburner thrust = 85kn


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## sancho

Any new reports about the F414-GE-INS6 engine (thrust, based on normal 414 - 400, or newer EDE)?


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Any new reports about the F414-GE-INS6 engine (thrust, based on normal 414 - 400, or newer EDE)?



did not disclose yet.

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## SpArK

Highest-rated GE F414 = GE F414 EPE = ~118kN.. so it would be bigger than that???


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> Highest-rated GE F414 = GE F414 EPE = ~118kN.. so it would be bigger than that???



Highest rated available, or possible? EPE is not available yet and even the EDE should need changes for a single engine fighter.


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## redpearl75

*Eurojet pays dearly for engine re-bid delay*

European aerospace firm Eurojet missed being declared the lowest bidder &#8212; L1 &#8212; by a whisker for the engine deal of the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mark-II being developed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

The European consortium is engaged in a fierce battle with the American GE Aviation for providing technology and consultancy for the manufacture of 99 engines for the LCA Tejas Mark-II.

An official with knowledge about the bid, on the condition of anonymity, said Eurojet had submitted its revised bid on September 28 and it reached the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on September 29.

&#8220;Eurojet marred its chance by submitting its bid a day before the announcement (of L1 biddder) was made &#8212; September 30. And so their revised bid was not considered,&#8221; he said.

He said Eurojet&#8217;s revised quotation for manufacturing of its EJ200 indigenously is lower than GE&#8217;s F-414 by $80-100 million.


According to sources, after reworking the bid and providing the details soughtby the price negotiation committee, the European consortium&#8217;s tender price is around $900 million while that of GE is $980 million. In the initial round, Eurojet&#8217;s bid was reportedly lower at $666 million compared with GE&#8217;s $822 million. It is learnt Eurojet&#8217;s price had shot up because it had not clearly specified certain items in its bid.

One of them was the $65 million cost of tools, which it is giving on &#8216;free on loan&#8217; - meaning the tools would be returned on completion of the project.

GE, on the other hand, is providing the tools totally free.

&#8220;This and other costs, which were specified more clearly in response to queries from the price negotiation panel has closed the gap between Eurojet and GE but European engine maker&#8217;s bid is still lower than GE,&#8221; said a source.

Though, another source, who did not want to be named, said initially Eurojet&#8217;s bid had shot up to over $1000 million after they clarified certain expenses in the tender.

&#8220;They rushed to correct that (their bid climbing higher than GE&#8217;s) but by the time they came back with a revised bid, it was too late,&#8221; he said.

Price negotiation committee chairman and chief controller - R&D - of DRDO Dr CK Prahlada could not be reached for comments.

The LCA Tejas Mark-II is an upgraded version of the current Mark-I, which uses GE&#8217;s F404 engine.


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## marcos98

*Price Talks Imminent On GE F414 Engine For India LCA*

By Neelam Mathews 
NEW DELHI 

Price negotiations will begin soon for 99 General Electric F414 fighter jet engines selected to power the Mk II version of the Indian Air Force&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) awarded the contract on Oct. 1, and it is expected to be signed in a few months (Aerospace DAILY, Oct. 1).

The F414 engine was in the running along with the EuroJet EJ-200. The contract&#8217;s value cannot be confirmed until it is finalized, a Defense Research Development Organization spokesman says. &#8220;We could always go for more [engines],&#8221; he adds.

The selection follows earlier GE engine buys for the Indian Air Force (IAF). In 2007, India purchased 24 F404 GE engines, and in 2004 the country bought 17 F404 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and LCA naval prototypes.

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model. It boasts Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and additional single-engine safety features. &#8220;GE keeps infusing the latest technology,&#8221; a company official says. &#8220;If, for instance, we have a version 12 of the blade, the customer gets just that.&#8221;

Helping seal the deal was GE&#8217;s offer to provide increased technical manpower and base workers in India to help develop the engine, officials said.

The contract requires 8-10 engines to be provided in fly-away condition, with the rest to be delivered in semi-knocked-down condition and assembled in India. The agreement also contains a 30&#37; offset clause and will tap some of the 24 Indian companies that GE has certified. &#8220;The deliveries will depend on when the development phase of the LCA is over,&#8221; and official says.

A remaining point of contention is the technology transfer clause.

&#8220;The requirement and conditions were not clear,&#8221; an engine manufacturer says. &#8220;You cannot offer a product unless you know how it will be used. Besides, you need to consider which of the two technologies are more advanced.&#8221; GE requires U.S. government clearance for transfer of technology. &#8220;We can almost be sure there will be no transfer of crystal blades of the F414,&#8221; an analyst says.

India has expressed interest in the F/A-18 and F-16 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), which can carry an active electronically scanned array radar

There is speculation that the F414 decision is a sign that either the Gripen or F/A-18 &#8212; both contenders in India&#8217;s program for 126 MMRCAs &#8212; will gain a competitive edge. But since the engine comprises 20% of the total aircraft order&#8217;s cost, &#8220;this will not impact nor provide a financial advantage. The two contracts are not connected with each other at all,&#8221; IAF chief V.K. Naik says.

Indian industry says it is looking forward to working with GE in honoring its offset requirements. Quest Global signed an memorandum of understanding with GE a month ago to source assets for the F414. The company says it hopes to be involved in the project by using its current capability in engine design and components manufacturing.

&#8220;GE has a strong sourcing strategy ... and we are a part of it. We see Quest supplying seals, casings and engine accessories [for fuel systems] to GE,&#8221; says Nagabhushana Junjappa, Quest&#8217;s vp for strategy.

While the LCA Mk2 has been slated for production by 2014, that is seen as a distant dream, an analyst says. The new aircraft&#8217;s fuselage and components need to be modified and put through armament tests, and the behavioral patterns of the aircraft will change accordingly. The LCA Mk 2 also will need to undergo at least four technology demonstrators that will delay military commissioning beyond 2014, the analyst said.

India also has been in discussions to develop Kaveri, an indigenous engine, for the LCA. Technology and assistance discussions were held with Snecma last week. The Kaveri requires greater thrust and a reduction in weight, a spokesman says.

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## kingdurgaking

India to develop its own futuristic computer operating system, IBN Live News

Great going DRDO


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## sudhir007

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: NEXT WEEK: A Series On The LCA Tejas







A page from a new Indian defence magazine, a copy of which was sent to me today. Stay tuned for the series -- it starts a week from today.


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## redpearl75

Any updates about the Radar procurement for LCA LSP 3... Is it confirmed that Elta EL/M-2052 has been finally shortlisted for procurement..?

Wiki says: The development of an AESA radar for the Tejas is expected to begin pending the selection of an developmental partner.The contenders for the contract are the European Consortium EADS and the Israeli company Elta.The initial contract will see the co-development of 10 prototypes.

I don't see or find EADS's involvement anywhere as in no updates about it's involvement is mentioned anywhere....

Can I please knoe the exact capabilities of the Elta's radar.... That is going to be incorporated in the LSP 3...

Thanks...


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## Trisonics

Given the Features and Functionality of the Tejas, We Feel the Weight is Reasonable
Director ADA, P.S. Subramanyam

*
What is the current status of the LCA programme?*

We have developed 2 technology demonstrators TD-1 and TD-2; we have the four prototypes PV-1, PV-2, PV-3 and PV-4. The Limited Series Production aircraft ranging from LSP-1 to LSP-4 are all flying. TD-1, TD-2 and PV-1 have now become outdated and are used for ground testing or testing of equipment that needs to be developed for the Tejas. All the aircraft from PV-2 onwards are participating in the flying test campaign. LSP-5 is currently the final Standard of Preparation that we will deliver to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and this aircraft is expected to fly this month. LSP-6 and LSP-7 will follow and have been earmarked for the user evaluation by pilots belonging to the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment (ASTE).

Both the IAF and the Indian Navy have committed some money for the Tejas Mk-2 which will be equipped with a higher performing engine. We now have a concurrent programme to develop the Tejas Mk-2 version for the IAF and the Indian Navy. The PV-5 which is a trainer version of the Tejas is flying and another aircraft PV-6 is expected to fly by the end of this year. The maiden flight of the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to take place in December 2014 and production will begin in December 2016.

*What is the current order book for the Tejas and what orders can be expected in the future?
*
Based on the progress observed by the IAF an order for 20 Tejas fighters was placed by the IAF in 2006. Further developments in the LCA programme have resulted in order for another 20 aircraft. There exists a requirement on paper for 100 fighters (five squadrons) for the IAF and a 50 for the Indian Navy, which has been put up to the government of India. The technology growth in engines has been so rapid that is has been very difficult to keep pace with the technology. As a result, the Kaveri engine which we began with in the early Nineties is now unable to match the performance requirements demanded by the user. We are confident that the Tejas equipped with the alternate engine will provide the IAF with a fighter which offers contemporary performance over a decade of service.

*What is the configuration of the LSP versions and what changes will Mk-2 versions entail?*

Equipment-fit LSP-wise is in the final standard of preparation for the IAF. All the sensors, communication equipment and weapons required for the current Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) are present. Also since we were designing a fighter of this class for the first time, we were very conservative in the design. Especially when it came to structural strength characteristics and this has lead to an increase in weight. Weight optimisation will be undertaken for the Tejas Mk-2 variant to reduce its weight. The Mk-2 version will also have better Centre of Gravity (CG) management and maintainability features. Within the programme feasibility, we will be revamping the cockpit electronics to bring it more up to date with technologies that will be prevalent around 2016. There will be advanced electronics, improved cockpit displays and interfaces which will remain contemporary even in the 2020s.
*The Tejas Mk-2 will feature an alternate engine which will offer a performance increase of about 10 per cent. The engine change for Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed and intakes having to be redesigned. All these structural changes will also reflect in drawing changes and parts fabrication. The digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) will not change. We do not see much impact when it comes to hydraulics, electronics and undercarriage, etc. With regards to the developmental programme this will not be a major impact.*

*What is the update on the LCA Naval version?*

The Power On for the Navy version has to take place where we test all the functions; this will be followed by four to six weeks of exhaustive testing. If we are able to demonstrate the naval variant at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) in Goa, then the navy may consider orders for the Mk-1 variant of Tejas itself, to fill the gap for light fighters to operate off its careers. We also expect the navy to order around 2 squadrons of the Mk-2 variant. Initial funding of about Rs 900 crore was obtained for the Naval variant in 2003, as we went along there were many challenges and we found that a major portion of the structure had to be strengthened, nose droop was required, extra control surfaces and the flight control system of Naval variant differs from the IAF variant because of the low speed landing requirements of the LCA Navy. In hindsight, it would have been easier to design the naval variant first and then quickly move onto the air force variant and not the other way around. Our initial estimates on the amount of work required on the Naval variant were not quite accurate and the programme gave us some surprises.

*What is being done to address concerns that the LCA is overweight?*

When you consider the amount of features and functionality given in the Tejas, we feel the weight is reasonable. We had planned initially for a fighter in the 5.5 tonne category but currently it has grown to about 6.5 tonne. The penalty of the weight increase is visible in one or two performance parameters. Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar. Due to the weight growth, there have been certain deviations in the performance parameters. The IAF has validated these deviations to be compensated by advanced weapon systems which were not available in 1985. We will not incorporate any changes in the Mk-1 version as it is ready for production. In the Mk-2 version of Tejas, we expect to see weight savings of around 300 to 500Kg which will come from weight optimisation in the aircraft structures alone.

*What is required to ensure CEMILAC clearance will be obtained in December, followed by the IOC?*

The CEMILAC clearance is actually a Release to Certification, with this certification the Tejas can be cleared for use by the operator i.e. IAF. It was being flown till now by pilots belonging to the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), the Release to Certification will see the Tejas being flown by operational pilots of the IAF. To get CEMILAC certification, a process begins and we have to capture all data that has been generated over the last 20 years and put it through filters to address problems if any. CEMILAC will check all the data we provide and match performance figures for the aircraft and then they approve as a third party agency, the Standard of Preparation. This will happen by December. We have around 300 people working on all the design data generated and double checking the same. We have not encountered any major issues as part of the certification process so far. In the LCA programme, quality has been given the highest priority.

The IOC is an understanding with the users i.e. IAF, telling CEMILAC to clear the aircraft in this particular standard of preparation. We will be providing the IAF with an aircraft that is equipped with a specific set of sensors, weapons, avionics, etc. and a particular standard of performance and functionality as declared in the Standard of Preparation. The IOC is a nomenclature used by the IAF and the Release to Certification is provided by CEMILAC. The IAF will move towards FOC for the Tejas in 2014. We have to add a new CCM, BVR, extra weapons and it will also have a mid-air refueling system along with new drop tanks and few other refinements. We look at adding these features in the second lot of 20 aircraft.

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

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## sancho

Trisonics said:


> *What is being done to address concerns that the LCA is overweight?*
> 
> When you consider the amount of features and functionality given in the Tejas, we feel the weight is reasonable. We had planned initially for a fighter in the 5.5 tonne category but currently it has grown to about 6.5 tonne. The penalty of the weight increase is visible in one or two performance parameters. Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar. Due to the weight growth, there have been certain deviations in the performance parameters. The IAF has validated these deviations to be compensated by advanced weapon systems which were not available in 1985. We will not incorporate any changes in the Mk-1 version as it is ready for production. In the Mk-2 version of Tejas, we expect to see weight savings of around 300 to 500Kg which will come from weight optimisation in the aircraft structures alone.



Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:







*Empty weight: 5680Kg*

So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?


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## saurabh

sancho said:


> Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Empty weight: 5680Kg*
> 
> So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?



This seems very, very old pic. Look at the combat radius.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Empty weight: 5680Kg*
> 
> So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?



Hmmm ..... can some one tell what happened to PV5?? ... the IOC is nearing and it is no where near sight.. any update on this will be helpful...


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## Kinetic

Good details.



> The digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) will not change. We do not see much impact when it comes to hydraulics, electronics and undercarriage, etc.



This means Tejas's FBW and electronics are advanced enough to retain in mk II as well. 



> Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar.



Which HMDS Tejas will get? Elbit's or DRDO's? Most probably Israeli.


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## BATMAN

Please refer to the picture posted in post 3246 (above)



> 'when will India fly its indigenous fighter aircraft'



Your new defence magazine is worng on all accounts.
I believe Teja prototype has been flying, however flying is not enough to be a fighter.
Honestly, even K8 can drop bombs and fire missiles.
Next, It is not Teja which is indigenous, it is the word itself which is indigenous and the mag proved it by taking its start from same claim.

Please, drop this MKII humiliation.... what ever new will come will have will have more resemblance to other design concepts rather than Teja.

India will never ever dare to venture into delta wing development and this is not difficult to say after knowing the reasons of its failure.

Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.

Teja production will be waste of money but will serve other objectives than fighting wars.

I don't know what to say more!


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## notsuperstitious

Its Tejas and not Teja, Batma.

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## satishkumarcsc

BATMAN said:


> Please refer to the picture posted in post 3246 (above)
> 
> 
> 
> Your new defence magazine is worng on all accounts.
> I believe Teja prototype has been flying, however flying is not enough to be a fighter.
> Honestly, even K8 can drop bombs and fire missiles.
> Next, It is not Teja which is indigenous, it is the word itself which is indigenous and the mag proved it by taking its start from same claim.
> 
> Please, drop this MKII humiliation.... what ever new will come will have will have more resemblance to other design concepts rather than Teja.
> 
> India will never ever dare to venture into delta wing development and this is not difficult to say after knowing the reasons of its failure.
> 
> Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
> You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
> Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
> It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
> Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.
> 
> Teja production will be waste of money but will serve other objectives than fighting wars.
> 
> I don't know what to say more!



Ah...nice rant. What bothers you? Tejas is overweight because it has a lot more avionics inside and a bigger radar, more robust landing gear and its TWR is already high. But our IAF was not satisfied. The design parameters have now been changed and the flight envelope needed to be advanced. The major addition of weight is done by the HMD system that has been added and the FCS and the FADEC. The were not in the first GSQR floated in 1989. 

Lets look at your glorification of delta canards. The LCA carries a cranked delta configuration and it is an interceptor. Why does it need canards? Canards have its own disadvantages. Delta configs bleed more energy in a turning fight and hence deltas always have less manuverablity compared to conventional swept wings.

And FYI the LCA MKII is not a dream and is a reality. Darn, the LCA 1 has enough TWR and infact more than the JF 17.

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## BATMAN

What rant? what bother?
check your thread it is perhaps first post by any Pakistani since last 3000 posts.
I merely pointed out the misquotation at the cover of your defence magazine!

There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications..... though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.

Next, I don't want to start a comparison here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.
I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.


----------



## BATMAN

fateh71 said:


> Its Tejas and not Teja, Batma.



Sorry.... i don't know from where i got in my head.
Just a mixup...


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## k7x

BATMAN said:


> There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications..... though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.
> 
> Next, I don't want to start a comparison here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.
> I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.




Can you please enlighten me what are the design flaws you think Tejas has.. 

asking these because you seems to be more knowledgeable in this field of fighter aircraft design .


well my understanding so far is it is 18% over weight . and apart from that it doesnt have any thing bad. with existing engine and additional requirements (aesa)

we poor Indians are trying to make a 

cheap Low Capabality Aircraft with high composite / quad FBW and unstable aerodynamic , aesa radar, inflight refueling, bvarm capable, carrier landing capable, fuel dump capable, aircraft. 


one can do two things. 

either watch others doing it and comment on their sufferings 
or work like the other person and achieve 

first one is really easy..


----------



## gogbot

BATMAN said:


> There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay



Technology restrictions, 
Testing facilities infrastructure,
R&D into new materials
Engineering aircraft from designs
underfunded for the majority of the development
Requirements creep.

The reasons for delays is vast , citing one and pointing to it alone is not very fair.



BATMAN said:


> and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications.....



Every design has deficiencies that are both considered and calculated.
Calling them flaws is simply inaccurate.



BATMAN said:


> though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.



Most of Our media knows **** about defense news , to this day they can't get the dates right for the Tejas project start.

They compare LCH to Comanche and make mess by quoting officals out of context. 

You should consider carefully what the media is saying and think about what is really happening.



BATMAN said:


> Next, I don't want to start a comparison



I agree , but then...



BATMAN said:


> here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.



IF this was your opinion , fine. But then you made this claim. 



BATMAN said:


> I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.



LCA-N will take off in under 290m.

About the same length as IAC-1 , INS vikrant.


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## kingdurgaking

BATMAN said:


> Please refer to the picture posted in post 3246 (above)
> 
> Your new defence magazine is worng on all accounts.
> I believe Teja prototype has been flying, however flying is not enough to be a fighter.
> Honestly, even K8 can drop bombs and fire missiles.
> Next, It is not Teja which is indigenous, it is the word itself which is indigenous and the mag proved it by taking its start from same claim.
> 
> Please, drop this MKII humiliation.... what ever new will come will have will have more resemblance to other design concepts rather than Teja.
> 
> India will never ever dare to venture into delta wing development and this is not difficult to say after knowing the reasons of its failure.
> 
> Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
> You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
> Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
> It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
> Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.
> 
> Teja production will be waste of money but will serve other objectives than fighting wars.
> 
> I don't know what to say more!



Have you contributed anything to this program atleast a PNR? to take a dig on this?.. we tax payers ourself have lot of confidence... why you are more worried than us?? can i have your legitimate response on this?


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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.



That depends on what the weight really is now, if it still is 6.5t in the latest prototypes, it will be pretty equal to JFT slightly below 1, if they had reduced it, it will be better.


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## satishkumarcsc

BATMAN said:


> What rant? what bother?
> check your thread it is perhaps first post by any Pakistani since last 3000 posts.
> I merely pointed out the misquotation at the cover of your defence magazine!
> 
> There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications..... though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.
> 
> Next, I don't want to start a comparison here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.
> I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.



Technical reasons?...Pray tell me what are the design flaws that you noticed? And elaborate this naive guy what justifications that the media made?

If the JF 17 can do it so can LCA.


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## BATMAN

What a mess.... you people don't bother to read and take the discussion to different dimension.

First of all who quoted JFT? 
it is simple question.... but i hope there will be no simple answer.
Indeed, the rant about JFT was an attempt to mislead which i rejected because i knew different facts.
Even if i was wrong on this count.... what's the big deal?
Can't you respect disagreement.... but ironically..... you can't accept agreement either... and shoot back in both cases.
i don't know if it's temperament problem or perhaps i'm reading it wrong or perhaps it is clash of cultures.

I started the whole discussion with me *disagreeing* to the remark about Tejas on the cover of a holy Indian defence magazine.





remarks pulled my attention....... quite natural! you guys are over reacting.
I can't believe most of you asked me why i bother!!!!!!! and even got thanked for it 
Sorry, your approach left no good impression on me.

going back to context:
Some well informed enthusiast, stated above that Tejas take off distance is 290 meter which i say, is very impressive. I believe that was for MKI!
Do you think MK2 will improve further in this parameter?
Any hints to the source of your information?

Last but not least... giving in to your repeated inquiries about Tejas technical flaws:
i quote from my post on previous page.


> Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
> You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
> Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
> It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
> Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.



Now please, it is my opinion nothing personal.... so respond objectively.

enjoy.


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## satishkumarcsc

BATMAN said:


> What a mess.... you people don't bother to read and take the discussion to different dimension.
> 
> First of all who quoted JFT?
> it is simple question.... but i hope there will be no simple answer.
> Indeed, the rant about JFT was an attempt to mislead which i rejected because i knew different facts.
> Even if i was wrong on this count.... what's the big deal?
> Can't you respect disagreement.... but ironically..... you can't accept agreement either... and shoot back in both cases.
> i don't know if it's temperament problem or perhaps i'm reading it wrong or perhaps it is clash of cultures.
> 
> I started the whole discussion with me *disagreeing* to the remark about Tejas on the cover of a holy Indian defence magazine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> remarks pulled my attention....... quite natural! you guys are over reacting.
> I can't believe most of you asked me why i bother!!!!!!! and even got thanked for it
> Sorry, your approach left no good impression on me.
> 
> going back to context:
> Some well informed enthusiast, stated above that Tejas take off distance is 290 meter which i say, is very impressive. I believe that was for MKI!
> Do you think MK2 will improve further in this parameter?
> Any hints to the source of your information?
> 
> Last but not least... giving in to your repeated inquiries about Tejas technical flaws:
> i quote from my post on previous page.
> 
> 
> Now please, it is my opinion nothing personal.... so respond objectively.
> 
> enjoy.



well this is available on open sources but still I tell you and you can google it

1. The GE 404 IN 20 gives a thrust of 84kn which propels the Tejas at the TWR of 1.03 but the IAF wants the thrust to be more than 1 even in full load.

2.Why would we need to redesign the LCA into a twin engine concept? It is perfect with single engine and the GE 414 will solve the problems with its 98KN thrust engines.

3. Well as everyone knows that canards increase maneuverability it also increases cost of maintainance because there are more moving parts in delta canards. LCA is an interceptor and it has a decent AoA of 22 degrees. After it was demonstrated to the IAF the IAF acepted it

4. What makes you think it is not an agile dogfighter? because it is Indian made?

5. Yes that is why the Tejas MK 2 designation. The cockpit will be advanced further with inputs from the pilots ad will be incorporated in MK 2.

The Tejas Mk1 is actually an over kill for the intended MiG 21 replacement. So the Mk II will be more potent than the existing Tejas.


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## conworldus

I think all discussion of the LCA should stop until the plane is actually inducted into the Indian airforce. It has missed every deadline insofar so I think the discussion is becoming pointless because they are all about how the LCA will perform AFTER it is inducted.

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## marcos98

*Tejas Mk-2 will incorporate 5 gen fighter elements *

BY:Vinayak shetty for www.lca-tejas.org / idrw.org

Tejas MK-1 is fast approaching its IOC which will happen in December 2010 , but ADA officials have already done their premilanary design of Tejas Mk-2 , and to avoid further delays , Two Tejas MK-2 were designed keeping in mind the dimensions provided by two Engine manufactures who were in race to provide 100 + plus engines to the Tejas Mk-2 program .

Ge&#8217;s F414IN engines were logically chosen for the Tejas Mk-2, since they had same dimensions and length of F-404 engines which were powering Tejas MK-1 .but Tejas Mk-2 as per sources will incorporate advance technology developed keeping in mind MCA over a decade has a parallel in house development now officially known has AMCA.

*India currently is working on Indigenous AESA again with inputs from a international partner. Officials close to the program have told www.lca-tejas.org that major avionics will be ready for the aircraft within next two or three years, Tejas Mk-2 will have lot of key elements which will find its way into AMCA and FGFA later.
*
*Tejas MK-2 will also have a newly laid out cockpit layout with better computing power since it also be housing new mission control computer, Samtel Display Systems (SDS) is also working on touch based Multi Function Displays (MFD) for Tejas Mk-2 , which will later find its way in AMCA too .
*
Tejas Mk-2 will also see structural changes in the aircraft which will be noticeable in wider wing span to carry extra weapons load along with extra fuel, aircraft will also have large air intakes to let the high thrust engine generate additional power for the aircraft, engine change for Tejas Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed too .

Commonality between Tejas Mk-1 and Tejas MK-2 will be digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) along with some avionics which both aircraft will share, but sources also told us that FBW Software will require some modification in them to support structural changes which Tejas MK-2 will have.
*
When asked about development of Tejas MK-3 sources told us that it all depends how Tejas Mk-2 develops and how IAF responds to it , further development can happen but AMCA will be logical choice if it comes out in time for IAF rather then Tejas MK-3 .*


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## gogbot

conworldus said:


> I think all discussion of the LCA should stop until the plane is actually inducted into the Indian airforce. It has missed every deadline insofar so I think the discussion is becoming pointless because they are all about how the LCA will perform AFTER it is inducted.



Ok , Tell me a few deadlines you know that were missed.

We will examine your claim that "all" deadlines have been missed.


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## kingdurgaking

conworldus said:


> I think all discussion of the LCA should stop until the plane is actually inducted into the Indian airforce. It has missed every deadline insofar so I think the discussion is becoming pointless because they are all about how the LCA will perform AFTER it is inducted.



So you mean to say.. All other Fighters met there deadline with a punch? can you name one?


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## kingdurgaking

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs": Nawaz Sharif

A flame bit


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## MAFIAN GOD

WILL TEJAS MK-2 HAVE 'AESA' RADAR AND BETTER T/W RATIO THAN MK-1?
EXPERTS PLEASE COMMENT.
THANXXX.


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## Typhoon

Is this new MK-2 design?


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## AVIAN

conworldus said:


> I think all discussion of the LCA should stop until the plane is actually inducted into the Indian airforce. It has missed every deadline insofar so I think the discussion is becoming pointless because they are all about how the LCA will perform AFTER it is inducted.



By that yardstick, you and types like you should stop any discussion until types like you get whole knowldge of aviation.


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## CONNAN

Typhoon said:


> Is this new MK-2 design?



nope check the intakes its MK1 design the MK2 design will have rectangular intakes

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## MAFIAN GOD

I GOT TO LEARN A NEW THING ABOUT MK-2 THANKS TO connanxlrc1000.
I DID NOT KNOW THAT INTAKES FOR MK-2 ARE RECTANGULAR.


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## CONNAN

MAFIAN GOD said:


> I GOT TO LEARN A NEW THING ABOUT MK-2 THANKS TO connanxlrc1000.
> I DID NOT KNOW THAT INTAKES FOR MK-2 ARE RECTANGULAR.




you got more info on MK2 in this thread 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/76957-tejas-mk-2-will-incorporate-5-gen-fighter-elements.html

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## satishkumarcsc

connanxlrc1000 said:


> you got more info on MK2 in this thread
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/76957-tejas-mk-2-will-incorporate-5-gen-fighter-elements.html



can you give me a link for rectangular intakes?


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## CONNAN

satishkumarcsc said:


> can you give me a link for rectangular intakes?



read post no 12 in the below link thread it was posted by one of the member but not the link so you can ask him

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/76957-tejas-mk-2-will-incorporate-5-gen-fighter-elements.html


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## satishkumarcsc

connanxlrc1000 said:


> read post no 12 in the below link thread it was posted by one of the member but not the link so you can ask him
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/76957-tejas-mk-2-will-incorporate-5-gen-fighter-elements.html



It just says larger intakes, nowhere is it mentioned it will feild rectangular intakes....I think you have misquoted it.


----------



## CONNAN

satishkumarcsc said:


> It just says larger intakes, nowhere is it mentioned it will feild rectangular intakes....I think you have misquoted it.



nope read post no 12 it was quoted by a member


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> It just says larger intakes, nowhere is it mentioned it will feild rectangular intakes....I think you have misquoted it.



Not sure it will be rectangle .. but logically looks correct because F18 houses the same and Our designers may follow the same for safety purpose.. May be it would be optimal for that engine and its structure.. and May be it would apply the same for Tejas too...

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## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> Not sure it will be rectangle .. but logically looks correct because F18 houses the same and Our designers may follow the same for safety purpose.. May be it would be optimal for that engine and its structure.. and May be it would apply the same for Tejas too...



Rectangular exhaust means there will be a full change to the existing airframe and is equal to designing a new airframe. The Super Hornet is almost a new plane compared to the F 18 A/B hornets. This will require a totally different design philosophy leading to further delays. I hope the HAL & ADA dosent do something like that.


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Rectangular exhaust means there will be a full change to the existing airframe and is equal to designing a new airframe. The Super Hornet is almost a new plane compared to the F 18 A/B hornets. This will require a totally different design philosophy leading to further delays. I hope the HAL & ADA dosent do something like that.



Sirjee Not exhaust ... we are talking about Air intake.. And by adding the immovable Rectangular Air intakes it is not going to affect our FBW system.. FBW system is affected in the areas such as increased wing area and increased fuselage ... Where as the rear body might get bigger to house the engine but as far as the reports it seems the dimensions are looking same... I guess the test going for new Air intakes will not that be that major (this is my guess) ... People can correct me if i am wrong

For F18 hornet and super bug there are lot of changes on Airframe itself leave aside the s/w avionics , weapons package etc etc.. I dont think there is such extensive change in Tejas.. Our avionics are changing which will go into AMCA and we will be adding 1 or 2 weapons package more thats all... 

Key for Tejas-2 is more weapons and more range + increase the AoA and agility..

Ra's correct me if i am wrong

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I dont think there is such extensive change in Tejas.. Our avionics are changing which will go into AMCA and we will be adding 1 or 2 weapons package more thats all...
> 
> Key for Tejas-2 is more weapons and more range + increase the AoA and agility...



- new air intakes
- new rear fuselage
- larger wings
- more weapons stations
- new radar
- new engine
- IRST (although I still didn't read about it yet)

Like the article says too:



> Commonality between Tejas Mk-1 and Tejas MK-2 will be digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) along with some avionics which both aircraft will share, but sources also told us that FBW Software will require some modification in them to support structural changes which Tejas MK-2 will have.



So there will be extensive changes between the 2 Tejas versions!


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## Frankenstein

kingdurgaking said:


> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs": Nawaz Sharif
> 
> A flame bit



this happens when you ask a janitor to repair your car


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> - new air intakes
> - new rear fuselage
> - larger wings
> - more weapons stations
> - new radar
> - new engine
> - IRST (although I still didn't read about it yet)
> 
> Like the article says too:
> 
> 
> So there will be extensive changes between the 2 Tejas versions!



Yes sirjee you are right.. my question is for Air intake you need FBW to be modified?.. i doubt what you say? and what i assume is only those part which got changed they will consider it in flight test.. I hope extensive testing will be on Radar, weapons, cockpit, avionics and a medium testing on FBW and Airframe.. i dont think test points will be that extensive like the one we carried for MK1..i guess EADS is there to improve this test point what you say?..

---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------




Frankenstein said:


> this happens when you ask a janitor to repair your car



But you forgot to understand whose words it was reported in the article


----------



## sageof6path

Frankenstein said:


> this happens when you ask a janitor to repair your car



we do not buy second hand used cars............. we do buy the showroom piece............ unlike some neighbours


----------



## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> Sirjee Not exhaust ... we are talking about Air intake.. And by adding the immovable Rectangular Air intakes it is not going to affect our FBW system.. FBW system is affected in the areas such as increased wing area and increased fuselage ... Where as the rear body might get bigger to house the engine but as far as the reports it seems the dimensions are looking same... I guess the test going for new Air intakes will not that be that major (this is my guess) ... People can correct me if i am wrong
> 
> For F18 hornet and super bug there are lot of changes on Airframe itself leave aside the s/w avionics , weapons package etc etc.. I dont think there is such extensive change in Tejas.. Our avionics are changing which will go into AMCA and we will be adding 1 or 2 weapons package more thats all...
> 
> Key for Tejas-2 is more weapons and more range + increase the AoA and agility..
> 
> Ra's correct me if i am wrong



You are wrong about it. Rectangular exhaust means that the fuselage will be redesigned to house it along with the wing area. It is not mandatory to have rectangular exhausts because F 18E/F has them. The aerodynamics and wind resistance will change. As the F 414 is a larger engine the aft fuselage must be changed to accomodate the engine.


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## kish

satishkumarcsc said:


> You are wrong about it. Rectangular exhaust means that the fuselage will be redesigned to house it along with the wing area. It is not mandatory to have rectangular exhausts because F 18E/F has them. The aerodynamics and wind resistance will change. As the F 414 is a larger engine the aft fuselage must be changed to accomodate the engine.




please read very carefully before u reply ,



> Originally Posted by *kingdurgaking *
> 
> Sirjee Not exhaust ... we are talking about Air intake



@satish .... i think u missed that very first line before replying

he was talking about air intake not the exhaust so please correct ur post .


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## CONNAN

satishkumarcsc said:


> You are wrong about it. Rectangular exhaust means that the fuselage will be redesigned to house it along with the wing area. It is not mandatory to have rectangular exhausts because F 18E/F has them. The aerodynamics and wind resistance will change. As the F 414 is a larger engine the aft fuselage must be changed to accomodate the engine.



OMFG satish dudeeeeeeeeeeeee its air intake not exhaust almost three members clarified you including me still you dont get it

*air intake pictures*












*exhaust pictures*


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## satishkumarcsc

You people still dont understand...Air intake design directly affects the aft fuselage....you need to think along with the engine here...The dimensions of Ge 414 is a bit larger than the Ge-404. I perfectly know the difference between an Exhaust and an air intake. And you people think that redesigning the air inlet into rectanglar shape is easy which i say is not as easy as it looks. The aft Fuselage will undergo a lot of changes so as to make a non turbulent flow of air into the Y shaped duct inlets.

First understand the concept of air intakes and the rectangular exhausts hace a turbulent airflow in the Y shaped ducts...so there will be a lot of redesign required to the fuselage.

http://icas-proceedings.net/ICAS2002/PAPERS/643.PDF

This is from the EADS research in air intakes and how it affects the performance.

And am sorry I meant air intake in the above post...not "exhaust" pure negligence...sorry.


----------



## CONNAN

satishkumarcsc said:


> You people still dont understand...Air intake design directly affects the aft fuselage....you need to think along with the engine here...The dimensions of Ge 414 is a bit larger than the Ge-404. I perfectly know the difference between an Exhaust and an air intake. And you people think that redesigning the air inlet into rectanglar shape is easy which i say is not as easy as it looks. The aft Fuselage will undergo a lot of changes so as to make a non turbulent flow of air into the Y shaped duct inlets.
> 
> First understand the concept of air intakes and the rectangular exhausts hace a turbulent airflow in the Y shaped ducts...so there will be a lot of redesign required to the fuselage.
> 
> http://icas-proceedings.net/ICAS2002/PAPERS/643.PDF
> 
> This is from the EADS research in air intakes and how it affects the performance.
> 
> And am sorry I meant air intake in the above post...not "exhaust" pure negligence...sorry.



*this is what the article concludes that we do require changes in the design of the fuselage if we change the design of the air intakes but no where in the article suggest that there is a change necessary required in the exhaust if there is any change in the design of the air intake. *

Air intakes are necessary for all vehicles propelled by airbreathing
means, whether they be aircraft, missiles,
helicopters or, in the future, reusable space launchers.
They will directly condition the propulsive performance
(thrust, drag, weight, thermal properties, lift) of the
vehicles in which they are mounted. They are subject to a
multitude of constraints (Mach number, angle of attack
and yaw angle, possible injections, discretion, engine
failure, among others).
*The first step in air intake design is thus to "clearly
identify all of the air intake's specifications".
After a short phase in which the air intake is defined alone
comes the phase in which the external aerodynamic field is
effectively considered with its over- and under-speeds,
vortices, boundary layers, transverse gradients, nose and
other effects.*

*The second step is thus to "find the best location for the
air intake(s) and, if possible, modify the upstream part
of the fuselage to improve the captured air flow".
Air intakes have very complex internal flows, including
sub-, trans-, and supersonic zones simultaneously. There
are many interactions (shock/shock, shock/boundary layer,
vortex/wall, corner effect) and they are generally
combined. Many non-steady aspects are to be considered,
and notably the buzz which is critical for structural
dimensioning and operating limits. The air intake's
matching with the engine that it supplies must always be
ensured.
The third step is then to "carry out some calculations,
but use essentially previous experience (bibliography,
personal knowledge) and wind tunnel tests at high
Reynolds numbers".*

*Air intakes must be designed by a "System" approach.
Optimising them is a long and difficult process.*


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## CONNAN

so satish if you can please edit your previous posts and remove the word exhaust it does make sense


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> You people still dont understand...Air intake design directly affects the aft fuselage....you need to think along with the engine here...The dimensions of Ge 414 is a bit larger than the Ge-404. I perfectly know the difference between an Exhaust and an air intake. And you people think that redesigning the air inlet into rectanglar shape is easy which i say is not as easy as it looks. The aft Fuselage will undergo a lot of changes so as to make a non turbulent flow of air into the Y shaped duct inlets.
> 
> First understand the concept of air intakes and the rectangular exhausts hace a turbulent airflow in the Y shaped ducts...so there will be a lot of redesign required to the fuselage.
> 
> http://icas-proceedings.net/ICAS2002/PAPERS/643.PDF
> 
> This is from the EADS research in air intakes and how it affects the performance.
> 
> And am sorry I meant air intake in the above post...not "exhaust" pure negligence...sorry.



Dude FBW hasnt got major impact here(Air Intake) is the argument.. FBW is getting affected in increased wing span and rear fuselage getting increased as a result tail rudder will be affected eventually.. What ever you suggested affects aerodynamics and my guess is those test points wont be that much extensive compared to FBW test points... because FBW is a critical one as we are trying to move some of the manual work to the computer.. Further DSI will not be implemented to have a moving part


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## kish

PakSher said:


> Did the LCA Project start in 1980 like the Arjun Tank Project. I checked the calendar and it is October 19,2010. You guys think after 30 years LCA will finally enter the IAF?



india is trying to have self reliance for its air power,

now look at time timing of few fighter knows as top as today ...
f 22 ,rafale, typhoon , f 35 and pak fa are developed or being develop by some countries have very good experience of developing a fighter jet and almost its every sub system . 

to develop a jet from scratch is not easy task 
though lca delayed by initial plans and engine and radar and few system will still from foriegn supplier but still it running quite good and will be in service soon


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## Just Yash

kish said:


> india is trying to have self reliance for its air power,
> 
> now look at time timing of few fighter knows as top as today ...
> f 22 ,rafale, typhoon , f 35 and pak fa are developed or being develop by some countries have very good experience of developing a fighter jet and almost its every sub system .
> 
> to develop a jet from scratch is not easy task
> though lca delayed by initial plans and engine and radar and few system will still from foriegn supplier but still it running quite good and will be in service soon



Kish we don't have to justify our self to idiot.

Just ignore the troll.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *this is what the article concludes that we do require changes in the design of the fuselage if we change the design of the air intakes but no where in the article suggest that there is a change necessary required in the exhaust if there is any change in the design of the air intake. *
> 
> Air intakes are necessary for all vehicles propelled by airbreathing
> means, whether they be aircraft, missiles,
> helicopters or, in the future, reusable space launchers.
> They will directly condition the propulsive performance
> (thrust, drag, weight, thermal properties, lift) of the
> vehicles in which they are mounted. They are subject to a
> multitude of constraints (Mach number, angle of attack
> and yaw angle, possible injections, discretion, engine
> failure, among others).
> *The first step in air intake design is thus to "clearly
> identify all of the air intake's specifications".
> After a short phase in which the air intake is defined alone
> comes the phase in which the external aerodynamic field is
> effectively considered with its over- and under-speeds,
> vortices, boundary layers, transverse gradients, nose and
> other effects.*
> 
> *The second step is thus to "find the best location for the
> air intake(s) and, if possible, modify the upstream part
> of the fuselage to improve the captured air flow".
> Air intakes have very complex internal flows, including
> sub-, trans-, and supersonic zones simultaneously. There
> are many interactions (shock/shock, shock/boundary layer,
> vortex/wall, corner effect) and they are generally
> combined. Many non-steady aspects are to be considered,
> and notably the buzz which is critical for structural
> dimensioning and operating limits. The air intake's
> matching with the engine that it supplies must always be
> ensured.
> The third step is then to "carry out some calculations,
> but use essentially previous experience (bibliography,
> personal knowledge) and wind tunnel tests at high
> Reynolds numbers".*
> 
> *Air intakes must be designed by a "System" approach.
> Optimising them is a long and difficult process.*



yes that is what I am tying to tell.... Air Intakes must be done according to system approach. That take s a lot of time to develop. And hence the delays that are plaguing the LCA will increase further more.

You have now found out the designing of the air intakes directly spells the delay of the aircraft because there is a lot of things affecting the change of intakes. 

LCA being a 95&#37; composite surface area airframe has many problems relating to heat. Heat is very important when it comes to composite design and heat must be dissipated. Heat in a particular part is a big problem. I am a dentist...and that is why i give a bevel so as to dissipate the stress and heat in a particular area. That is kinda impossible in a rectangular air intakes.

S according to me...a rectangular intake is not mandatory unless the LCA is designed for stealth or stealthy purposes. The LCA is already delayed and so i dont want to delay it further....

next is the discussion of shock and vortex formation....everyone knows in basic aerodynamics the shock and vortex formation takes place at sharp edges when the air flow is turbulent. The rectangular exhausts that u mention causes more vortices because of sharper edges and hence a lot of air pockets that choke the engine....that is a major concern while redesigning the air intakes from an already existing form to another...

http://espace.uq.edu.au/eserv/UQ:121369/Hua_afmc_16_07.pdf

http://www.engineeringletters.com/issues_v16/issue_3/EL_16_3_20.pdf

This shows that the air intake must also take into consideration the vortex formation in the sharp edges of the rectangular air intakes. Now you might get a Gist of what i am trying to say.

FBW is something that is gonna be switched off during ACM...so it is a hard thing to ignore...but is Close combat the pilot s going to push the aircrafts into the flight envelopes where the aircraft has rarely been in sustainance. Experienced pilots might avoid all those but in war time it is hard to tell if experienced pilots will be flying all the time...attrition must e taken into consideration.


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## SpArK

*VAYU: Wisdom & Courage: An Assessment Of The LCA Tejas​*





The images are not that clear as I have used the printscreen option to copy from Scribd.

Benny


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## SpArK




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## satishkumarcsc

connanxlrc1000 said:


> so satish if you can please edit your previous posts and remove the word exhaust it does make sense



I made a mistake...and i dont want to waste ur posts..so let it be....


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## SpArK




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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## kingdurgaking

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *this is what the article concludes that we do require changes in the design of the fuselage if we change the design of the air intakes but no where in the article suggest that there is a change necessary required in the exhaust if there is any change in the design of the air intake. *
> 
> Air intakes are necessary for all vehicles propelled by airbreathing
> means, whether they be aircraft, missiles,
> helicopters or, in the future, reusable space launchers.
> They will directly condition the propulsive performance
> (thrust, drag, weight, thermal properties, lift) of the
> vehicles in which they are mounted. They are subject to a
> multitude of constraints (Mach number, angle of attack
> and yaw angle, possible injections, discretion, engine
> failure, among others).
> *The first step in air intake design is thus to "clearly
> identify all of the air intake's specifications".
> After a short phase in which the air intake is defined alone
> comes the phase in which the external aerodynamic field is
> effectively considered with its over- and under-speeds,
> vortices, boundary layers, transverse gradients, nose and
> other effects.*
> 
> *The second step is thus to "find the best location for the
> air intake(s) and, if possible, modify the upstream part
> of the fuselage to improve the captured air flow".
> Air intakes have very complex internal flows, including
> sub-, trans-, and supersonic zones simultaneously. There
> are many interactions (shock/shock, shock/boundary layer,
> vortex/wall, corner effect) and they are generally
> combined. Many non-steady aspects are to be considered,
> and notably the buzz which is critical for structural
> dimensioning and operating limits. The air intake's
> matching with the engine that it supplies must always be
> ensured.
> The third step is then to "carry out some calculations,
> but use essentially previous experience (bibliography,
> personal knowledge) and wind tunnel tests at high
> Reynolds numbers".*
> 
> *Air intakes must be designed by a "System" approach.
> Optimising them is a long and difficult process.*



Fine dude... You are just saying rectangular is not mandatory.. accepted ...we are not saying it is rectangular.. we are just foreseeing that Rectangular intake can be an option because it is there on a plane which is hosing the same engine... 

And from where did you get that dimensions are different.. can we have your source?.. I have couple of source saying dimensions are same.. do you want me to post it?? let me see your source first


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## satishkumarcsc

F414-GE-400 / F414-GE-INS6, F414G

F404-GE-400


----------



## kish

Just Yash said:


> Kish we don't have to justify our self to idiot.
> 
> Just ignore the troll.




copy that...


----------



## ganimi kawa

satishkumarcsc said:


> *S according to me...a rectangular intake is not mandatory unless the LCA is designed for stealth or stealthy purposes.* The LCA is already delayed and so i dont want to delay it further....



I do not agree with this!

*Surfaces at 90 degrees to one another reflect radar waves right back to where they came (so rectangular engine intakes, and vertical and horizontal tails, make an airplane easy to pick out on radar).* If we want to make the LCA more stealthy then *"rectangular" air intake is something we must avoid*!

Though, I agree with you that shape change is not required in the LCA air intakes to satisfy the hunger of GE414 engines. The present shape will work just fine.

Here's a pic of LCA intakes...







Now , please notice the huge  but similar shaped intakes in the sea harrier. 






Shape is not a problem AFA delivering enough air to the engines is concerned.


P.S. Do you mean diamond shaped intakes?


----------



## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> F414-GE-400 / F414-GE-INS6, F414G
> 
> F404-GE-400





cant you see dimensions are same ... it differs only by weight..

414

Dimensions: Diameter 890 mm, Length 3.9 m 
Weights: Max Weight 1,109 kg (2,445 lb) 

404


Dimensions: Diameter 890 mm, Length 3.9 m 
Weights: Max Weight 991 kg (2,185 lb)


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## satishkumarcsc

ganimi kawa said:


> I do not agree with this!
> 
> *Surfaces at 90 degrees to one another reflect radar waves right back to where they came (so rectangular engine intakes, and vertical and horizontal tails, make an airplane easy to pick out on radar).* If we want to make the LCA more stealthy then *"rectangular" air intake is something we must avoid*!
> 
> Though, I agree with you that shape change is not required in the LCA air intakes to satisfy the hunger of GE414 engines. The present shape will work just fine.
> 
> Here's a pic of LCA intakes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now , please notice the huge  but similar shaped intakes in the sea harrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shape is not a problem AFA delivering enough air to the engines is concerned.
> 
> Thats just the engine...the gearbox, FADEC and atomizer accomodation must be taken into consideration...
> 
> 
> P.S. Do you mean diamond shaped intakes?


rectangular intakes or rhomboidal intakes...it isnt the matter...the reduction of turbulence in the airflow is what matters....
And i was replying to the post of the person above me....Its kinda hard to type with a blackberry u see....
So with that you must take gearbox, atomizer into consideration along with FADEC..


----------



## kingdurgaking

ganimi kawa said:


> I do not agree with this!
> 
> *Surfaces at 90 degrees to one another reflect radar waves right back to where they came (so rectangular engine intakes, and vertical and horizontal tails, make an airplane easy to pick out on radar).* If we want to make the LCA more stealthy then *"rectangular" air intake is something we must avoid*!
> 
> Though, I agree with you that shape change is not required in the LCA air intakes to satisfy the hunger of GE414 engines. The present shape will work just fine.
> 
> Here's a pic of LCA intakes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now , please notice the huge  but similar shaped intakes in the sea harrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shape is not a problem AFA delivering enough air to the engines is concerned.
> 
> 
> P.S. Do you mean diamond shaped intakes?




I want to add a point for rectangular/parallelogram intake .. The area of Air that can enter is more than the elliptical one... for the given dimension.. like the one in saab gripen


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## kish

satishkumarcsc said:


> yes that is what I am tying to tell.... Air Intakes must be done according to system approach. That take s a lot of time to develop. And hence the delays that are plaguing the LCA will increase further more.
> 
> You have now found out the designing of the air intakes directly spells the delay of the aircraft because there is a lot of things affecting the change of intakes.
> 
> LCA being a 95&#37; composite surface area airframe has many problems relating to heat. Heat is very important when it comes to composite design and heat must be dissipated. Heat in a particular part is a big problem. *I am a dentist*...and that is why i give a bevel so as to dissipate the stress and heat in a particular area. That is kinda impossible in a rectangular air intakes.
> 
> S according to me...a rectangular intake is not mandatory unless the LCA is designed for stealth or stealthy purposes. The LCA is already delayed and so i dont want to delay it further....
> 
> next is the discussion of shock and vortex formation....everyone knows in basic aerodynamics the shock and vortex formation takes place at sharp edges when the air flow is turbulent. The rectangular exhausts that u mention causes more vortices because of sharper edges and hence a lot of air pockets that choke the engine....that is a major concern while redesigning the air intakes from an already existing form to another...
> 
> http://espace.uq.edu.au/eserv/UQ:121369/Hua_afmc_16_07.pdf
> 
> http://www.engineeringletters.com/issues_v16/issue_3/EL_16_3_20.pdf
> 
> This shows that the air intake must also take into consideration the vortex formation in the sharp edges of the rectangular air intakes. Now you might get a Gist of what i am trying to say.
> 
> FBW is something that is gonna be switched off during ACM...so it is a hard thing to ignore...but is Close combat the pilot s going to push the aircrafts into the flight envelopes where the aircraft has rarely been in sustainance. Experienced pilots might avoid all those but in war time it is hard to tell if experienced pilots will be flying all the time...attrition must e taken into consideration.



 , , , , , look my teeth

kidding.................

satish .. i understood ur points but as we know 
LCA-II will powered by new engine so there will be work on fuselage in that case we can also add and test rectangular/parallelogram air intake 

again ur have a good point that for rectangular/parallelogram air intake will cause new problem of fluid dynamics [dont know much of that .. even forgot burnaulie's theorem] and we can face a delay ..

but again 
++ study off new air intake will help in mca .. as u say rectangular/parallelogram intake consider when we need stealth, .... 

my one point size of air intake have to change in normal case too coz new higher thrust engine need to suck more air inside


summary is ,, (consider no rectangular/parallelogram intake)
fuselage already need some work 
air intake already need some work 
work on mca also will start and so new air intake for same...

so .. we can think to have rectangular air intake in case the give an advantage ....

these are just my view ,,, feel free to correct me,,,,,,

no discussion about MMR  . . . . is there somebody have good idea about it ,,,


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## satishkumarcsc

kish said:


> , , , , , look my teeth
> 
> kidding.................
> 
> satish .. i understood ur points but as we know
> LCA-II will powered by new engine so there will be work on fuselage in that case we can also add and test rectangular air intake
> 
> again ur have a good point that for rectangular air intake will cause new problem of fluid dynamics [dont know much of that .. even forgot burnaulie's theorem] and we can face a delay ..
> 
> but again
> ++ study off new air intake will help in mca .. as u say rectangular intake
> 
> my one point size of air intake have to change in normal case too coz new higher thrust engine need to suck more air inside
> 
> 
> summary is ,, (consider no rectangular intake)
> fuselage already need some work
> air intake already need some work
> work on mca also have will start and so new air intake for same...
> 
> so .. we can think to have rectangular air intake in case the give an advantage ....
> 
> these are just my view ,,, feel free to correct me,,,,,,
> 
> no discussion about MMR  . . . . is there somebody have good idea about it ,,,



Think of the delay mate...its huge...with all the mods to the airframe and to the FADEC and the comp programming it will take a long time...and the LCA will be pushed even further...AMCA yes...but it is being designed with rhomboidal intakes from the start....


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Think of the delay mate...its huge...with all the mods to the airframe and to the FADEC and the comp programming it will take a long time...and the LCA will be pushed even further...AMCA yes...but it is being designed with rhomboidal intakes from the start....



Buddy on the lighter note .. we are just debating.. you no need to worry about delays as HAL and ADA would have already planned and would have given a road map to IAF.. which would have been freezed by now..

you getting worried on fictional changes and we getting worried because you got worried  .. so chill what ever supposed to happen will happen....

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## kish

satishkumarcsc said:


> Think of the delay mate...its huge...with all the mods to the airframe and to the FADEC and the comp programming it will take a long time...and the LCA will be pushed even further...AMCA yes...but it is being designed with rhomboidal intakes from the start....



hmm i know putting anything new in fighter jet is long term process of many sub process ,,
just my one query that ... we already have to work in both area (intake & fuselage) coz of engine .. and we already have to study new air intake for amca ,,, so is this not a possible that LCA-III can have some new feature including new intake after some time may be after some squadron of LCA-II aready produced (eg ,, after 50 LCA-II) ... but not at the cost of delay ,,, we can keep running our production line and when we have enough new things ready anad tested to add we can launch new version ,, so production will not suffer ..


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## ganimi kawa

satishkumarcsc said:


> rectangular intakes or rhomboidal intakes...it isnt the matter...the reduction of turbulence in the airflow is what matters....



Come on, doc! It's like saying Le Forte I or Le Forte II.......it isn't the matter!



satishkumarcsc said:


> And i was replying to the post of the person above me....Its kinda hard to type with a blackberry u see....
> So with that you must take gearbox, atomizer into consideration along with FADEC..



I can totally empathize with you! 


*Fun apart, I totally agree with you about the difficulties and the time penalty for changing LCA mk2 intakes. Size increase is much more probable!*

@ kish


> satish .. i understood ur points but as we know
> *LCA-II will powered by new engine so there will be work on fuselage in that case we can also add and test rectangular/parallelogram air intake*



There is no need to tamper with the design of a product variant if you want to test rectangular/parallelogram air intake. One craft can do the job!

*In fact, L.S.P. 6 of the LCA mk1 has been desiganted for experimental purposes. This craft can be used for the said purpose.*

Here is F16 testbed testing the DSI Intakes.


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## kish

Lemme correct my self .. . the GE F404 and F414 have same dimension ,, so my arguments are on stand by 


and one question ,, does there is need to work on size fuselage and air intake just because F414 engine alone ,,,


----------



## kingdurgaking

kish said:


> Lemme correct my self .. . the GE F404 and F414 have same dimension ,, so my arguments are on stand by
> 
> and one question ,, does there is need to work on size fuselage and air intake just because F414 engine alone ,,,




As far as the reports are considered.. We are going to increase the length and width of fuselage to accommodate more internal fuel, Increased wingspan to carry more weapons.. To compensate this ADA will work reducing the weight of the aircraft . And my guess is FBW will impacted only here...
Secondly air intake has to be increased to give more air flow to the engine...


----------



## satishkumarcsc

ganimi kawa said:


> Come on, doc! It's like saying Le Forte I or Le Forte II.......it isn't the matter!
> 
> 
> 
> I can totally empathize with you!
> 
> 
> *Fun apart, I totally agree with you about the difficulties and the time penalty for changing LCA mk2 intakes. Size increase is much more probable!*
> 
> @ kish
> 
> 
> There is no need to tamper with the design of a product variant if you want to test rectangular/parallelogram air intake. One craft can do the job!
> 
> *In fact, L.S.P. 6 of the LCA mk1 has been desiganted for experimental purposes. This craft can be used for the said purpose.*
> 
> Here is F16 testbed testing the DSI Intakes.



As they say the Le Forte 1 and Le Forte II are fractures...but the treatment protocol and the time for healing of the two varies vastly... Thus you must also know the same applies for the LCA mods....


----------



## ganimi kawa

> *As they say the Le Forte 1 and Le Forte II are fractures...but the treatment protocol and the time for healing of the two varies vastly...* Thus you must also know the same applies for the LCA mods....



I know! And thus the statement....



> Fun apart, I totally agree with you about the difficulties and the time penalty for changing LCA mk2 intakes. Size increase is much more probable!



Though, you can't write Le Forte I on the case file when you meant Le Forte II as the diagnosis. Typing difficulty won't be a very good defence in the MLC that will follow!

It's a pleasure to meet someone from my branch of the tree, though!


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## sudhir007

VAYU: Wisdom & Courage: An Assessment Of The LCA Tejas

for lca reader


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## kish

kingdurgaking said:


> As far as the reports are considered.. We are going to increase the length and width of fuselage to accommodate more internal fuel, Increased wingspan to carry more weapons.. To compensate this ADA will work reducing the weight of the aircraft . And my guess is FBW will impacted only here...
> Secondly air intake has to be increased to give more air flow to the engine...




in that case we should go for new air intake .. may be lil stealthier LCA will look more nice ... my one vote


----------



## kish

sudhir007 said:


> VAYU: Wisdom & Courage: An Assessment Of The LCA Tejas
> 
> for lca reader




same that benny posted today ,, i thought he scan a book and paste here,,

anyway thanks to both ,,, will give some time to read it


----------



## sudhir007

kish said:


> same that benny posted today ,, i thought he scan a book and paste here,,
> 
> anyway thanks to both ,,, will give some time to read it



Sorry for re-post i try to call images from the site but it not work that why i only post link

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## MAFIAN GOD

ACTUALLY BENNY POSTED PICTURES AND YOU GAVE THE LINK.
THANXXX ANYWAYS.

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## kish

sudhir007 said:


> Sorry for re-post i try to call images from the site but it not work that why i only post link



No sorry dude . . . That is good work by u . . I have to give some time to read that whole article . . Busy somewhere . Will click ur thank butten after i will read it.


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## CONNAN

kingdurgaking said:


> Fine dude... You are just saying rectangular is not mandatory.. accepted ...we are not saying it is rectangular.. we are just foreseeing that Rectangular intake can be an option because it is there on a plane which is hosing the same engine...
> 
> And from where did you get that dimensions are different.. can we have your source?.. I have couple of source saying dimensions are same.. do you want me to post it?? let me see your source first



i was actually replied this to satish to explain him regarding the article he posted. and you are right regarding your comment i agree with you. i just want to tell satish that there is no need to change the design of the exhaust if we redesign the intakes but some redesigning is necessary as far as fuselage is concerned

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## CONNAN

kingdurgaking said:


> Fine dude... You are just saying rectangular is not mandatory.. accepted ...we are not saying it is rectangular.. we are just foreseeing that Rectangular intake can be an option because it is there on a plane which is hosing the same engine...
> 
> And from where did you get that dimensions are different.. can we have your source?.. I have couple of source saying dimensions are same.. do you want me to post it?? let me see your source first


in post no 12 in the below link thread it was posted by one of the member but not the link i just quoted it from his comment but as you said there is no exact source quoting that it will be a rectangular but there will be a redesign in the air intakes to provide more inflow of air to the new engine for more thrust 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1214848


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## kingdurgaking

connanxlrc1000 said:


> i was actually replied this to satish to explain him regarding the article he posted. and you are right regarding your comment i agree with you. i just want to tell satish that there is no need to change the design of the exhaust if we redesign the intakes but some redesigning is necessary as far as fuselage is concerned



When lot of people have the right to speculate why not we also do that?... There is nothing wrong in expressing our views even though it turns out to be wrong at the end...

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## CONNAN

kingdurgaking said:


> When lot of people have the right to speculate why not we also do that?... There is nothing wrong in expressing our views even though it turns out to be wrong at the end...



yup and i hope our guys in HAL pull out the MK2 in time


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## ganimi kawa

Guys, I've come across this interview from the force magazine of Director ADA, Dr. P.S. Subramanyam, hope this clears up some confusion surrounding MkII. 



> 1.What is the current status of the LCA programme?
> 
> ----We have developed 2 technology demonstrators TD-1 and TD-2; we have the four prototypes PV-1, PV-2, PV-3 and PV-4. The Limited Series Production aircraft ranging from LSP-1 to LSP-4 are all flying.
> 
> *TD-1, TD-2 and PV-1 have now become outdated and are used for ground testing or testing of equipment that needs to be developed for the Tejas.* All the aircraft from PV-2 onwards are participating in the flying test campaign.
> 
> *LSP-5 is currently the final &#8216;Standard of Preparation&#8217; that we will deliver to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and this aircraft is expected to fly this month. LSP-6 and LSP-7 will follow and have been earmarked for the user evaluation by pilots belonging to the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment (ASTE).*
> 
> Both the IAF and the Indian Navy have committed some money for the Tejas Mk-2 which will be equipped with a higher performing engine. We now have a concurrent programme to develop the Tejas Mk-2 version for the IAF and the Indian Navy.
> 
> The PV-5 which is a trainer version of the Tejas&#8217; is flying and another aircraft PV-6 is expected to fly by the end of this year.
> 
> *The maiden flight of the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to take place in December 2014 and production will begin in December 2016.*







> 2.What is the current order book for the Tejas and what orders can be expected in the future?
> 
> 
> ----Based on the progress observed by the IAF an order for 20 &#8216;Tejas&#8217; fighters was placed by the IAF in 2006. Further developments in the LCA programme have resulted in order for another 20 aircraft.
> 
> *There exists a requirement on paper for 100 fighters (five squadrons) for the IAF and a 50 for the Indian Navy,* which has been put up to the government of India. The technology growth in engines has been so rapid that is has been very difficult to keep pace with the technology. As a result, the Kaveri engine which we began with in the early Nineties is now unable to match the performance requirements demanded by the user.
> 
> We are confident that the Tejas equipped with the alternate engine will provide the IAF with a fighter which offers contemporary performance over a decade of service.



Shall be posting the second part in just a while.


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## ganimi kawa

Here are the juicy details



> What is the configuration of the LSP versions and what changes will Mk-2 versions entail?
> 
> ---Equipment-fit LSP-wise is in the final standard of preparation for the IAF. *All the sensors, communication equipment and weapons required for the current Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) are present. *
> 
> Also since we were designing a fighter of this class for the first time, we were very conservative in the design. Especially when it came to structural strength characteristics and this has lead to an increase in weight.
> 
> *Weight optimisation will be undertaken for the Tejas Mk-2 variant to reduce its weight. The Mk-2 version will also have better Centre of Gravity (CG) management and maintainability features. Within the programme feasibility, we will be revamping the cockpit electronics to bring it more up to date with technologies that will be prevalent around 2016. There will be advanced electronics, improved cockpit displays and interfaces which will remain contemporary even in the 2020s.*
> 
> The Tejas Mk-2 will feature an alternate engine which will offer a performance increase of about 10 per cent.
> 
> *The engine change for Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed and intakes having to be redesigned. *All these structural changes will also reflect in drawing changes and parts fabrication.
> 
> *The digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) will not change. *
> 
> We do not see much impact when it comes to hydraulics, electronics and undercarriage, etc. With regards to the developmental programme this will not be a major impact.







> What is the update on the LCA Naval version?
> 
> 
> 
> ---The Power On for the Navy version has to take place where we test all the functions; this will be followed by four to six weeks of exhaustive testing.
> 
> *If we are able to demonstrate the naval variant at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) in Goa, then the navy may consider orders for the Mk-1 variant of Tejas itself,*  to fill the gap for light fighters to operate off its careers.
> 
> We also expect the navy to order around 2 squadrons of the Mk-2 variant. Initial funding of about Rs 900 crore was obtained for the Naval variant in 2003, as we went along there were many challenges and we found that a major portion of the structure had to be strengthened, nose droop was required, extra control surfaces and the flight control system of Naval variant differs from the IAF variant because of the low speed landing requirements of the LCA Navy.
> 
> *In hindsight, it would have been easier to design the naval variant first and then quickly move onto the air force variant and not the other way around.* Our initial estimates on the amount of work required on the Naval variant were not quite accurate and the programme gave us some surprises.

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## SpArK

*American heart for Tejas​*








25 OCTOBER, 2010, 10:23 AM

BY: Pratik Sawerdekar For Security October issue

Defense community in India was once again taken by surprise when an almost certain contract of 99 engines for the countrys most ambitious military project went not to the Europeans but the Americans. Many believed that Eurojets EJ-2000 was certain to win given the fact that it had IAFs support and was expected to be the lowest bidder. But it was the Americans who prevailed just by luck. Now LCA-Tejas Mk-2 will be powered by General Electrics GE-414 engine also used by F/A-18 Super Hornet and SAAB JAS-39 Gripen.

Eurojet as a matter of fact is believed to be the lowest bidder but it submitted its revalued figures just a day before the deadline hence the committee evaluating the offers didnt had enough time to go through the revalued offer and hence the earlier submitted bid was taken into consideration which was higher than that of American firms bid. Now since both the engines meet all the requirements the committee declared the GE-414 as the winner as it was the lowest bidder. Many people were disappointed by the news and declared that India succumbed to US pressure.

We may not know the entire truth but the chances of the above story being true and US pressure being false is very likely. GE Aviation is a financially much stronger company than Eurojet and it is a subsidiary of General Electric which is a multi-hundred billion dollars company. Also the GE-414 program has backing of American Govt. thus lot of financial support too. The GE-414 engine has also paid its R&D cost as around 1000 of these engines are already built and scores more are on order thanks to US Navys massive orders of Hornet fighters.

*not only means that GE-Aviation is in a better position to provide the engine at lower cost but also keep the price low after the contract is signed. They for instant are providing tools and equipments to HAL to manufacture these engines for free where as the Eurojet is charging for it. We could have expected cost escalation with Eurojet as it did make mistakes while bidding.*

*The potential of this deal is huge; it will make the Super Hornet and Gripen cheaper in the MMRCA competition. This means the GE-Avaition not has a contract of 99 engines plus 50 in option but also has chances of winning 126-252 engines with option of 64-128 more. Also every aircraft needs atleast one engine change in its life time hence in longer term GE-Aviation can end up supplying upto 700 engines to India.*

Many have raised alarm that India will have to depend upon the Americans even for their own aircraft. This is true, as USA is known for changing its policies and imposing sanctions within a short span of time but Indo-US relation has grown and US sees India as an important ally against China and hence would like to keep the relation warm. Even if we look this in a most

*negative sense we can come to a conclusion that it is still the best possible move by India. This is because if in next 3-4 years US imposes sanctions on India, we cannot expect the Europeans to keep supplying the EJ-2000 had they won the contract and support the Tejas program as European Union follows the US decisions blindly and wont supply EJ-2000 either. Thus, sanction threat is not all gone if the Eurojet engine was chosen. Secondly time frame is important, if by the time US imposes sanctions and we have learnt how to build the engines than it wont be a issue as HAL in past has proven that it can maintain American engines without their support and since we have learnt to build the engine on our own we can keep doing it with sanctions denying GE support.*

*Ultimately India seems to have played its cards right and has given its most ambitious project a final boost. India can now truly focus on getting the Mk-2 variant developed and hope for quick production to replace IAFs obsolete fleet.*


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## Firemaster

can tejas Mk2 have additional control surfaces like small canards or horizontal tails or lerx,s(as in pak fa) for better maneuverability?


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## sudhir007

A report for NewsX by Vishal Thapar reveals that a Eurojet consultant has been expelled from India for illegally obtaining privileged intelligence on a competing bid by G.E. Aviation in the 99 engines for HAL Tejas Mark II deal.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4672


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## MAFIAN GOD

I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS
(1)AREN'T WE HAVING KAVERI ENGINE FOR TEJAS MK-2?OR WE WILL BE CONTINUING WITH GE-414
(2)WILL TEJAS MK-2 HAVE TVC?


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## rockstarIN

MAFIAN GOD said:


> I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS
> (1)AREN'T WE HAVING KAVERI ENGINE FOR TEJAS MK-2?OR WE WILL BE CONTINUING WITH GE-414
> (2)WILL TEJAS MK-2 HAVE TVC?



No TVC for Tejas
Only GE-414 for MKII

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## sancho

> ...This is because if in next 3-4 years US imposes sanctions on India, we cannot expect the Europeans to keep supplying the EJ-2000 had they won the contract and support the Tejas program as European Union follows the US decisions blindly and wont supply EJ-2000 either. Thus, sanction threat is not all gone if the Eurojet engine was chosen. Secondly time frame is important, if by the time US imposes sanctions and we have learnt how to build the engines than it wont be a issue as HAL in past has proven that it can maintain American engines without their support and since we have learnt to build the engine on our own we can keep doing it with sanctions denying GE support...



This conclusion doesn't sound very logic right?

If the US imposes sanctions, IAF will have more problems with US engines itself, than with European engines. Especially when the US doesn't provide critical ToT of the engine, which makes us dependable on the supply of parts from the US. 
Btw, which american engine was maintened by HAL in the past? Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Sea Harrier uses european engines, the rest are Russian origin right?



MAFIAN GOD said:


> I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS
> (1)AREN'T WE HAVING KAVERI ENGINE FOR TEJAS MK-2?OR WE WILL BE CONTINUING WITH GE-414
> (2)WILL TEJAS MK-2 HAVE TVC?




In addition to what Rockstar correctly said, Kaveri - Snecma engine is mainly aimed for AMCA now as it seems, but it could be possible to use them as replacement engines in future, for the GE engines in MK1 and MK2.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> If the US imposes sanctions, IAF will have more problems with US engines itself, than with European engines. Especially when the US doesn't provide critical ToT of the engine, which makes us dependable on the supply of parts from the US.
> Btw, which american engine was maintened by HAL in the past? Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Sea Harrier uses european engines, the rest are Russian origin right?


Sirjee I guess we are going to build the entire engine here.. We will get the production technology but not the design technology.. So main thing that we may require is the Raw Material(Alloys)... which US will be supplying us.. They will be kept as trade secret... Rest everything we will be doing here..


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## praveen007

kingdurgaking said:


> Sirjee I guess we are going to build the entire engine here.. We will get the production technology but not the design technology.. So main thing that we may require is the Raw Material(Alloys)... which US will be supplying us.. They will be kept as trade secret... Rest everything we will be doing here..



bhai that Raw Meterial (Alloy) is one of those most imp things apart from the single Crystal Blade tech.
and i hope u understand it,,,,,,,,,,........


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## kingdurgaking

praveen007 said:


> bhai that Raw Meterial (Alloy) is one of those most imp things apart from the single Crystal Blade tech.
> and i hope u understand it,,,,,,,,,,........



Yes sirjee we will be developing the Crystal Blade also.. but all the Inputs for it will come from US.. we will process and we will get the O/p... This is called ToT  .. that everyone is giving us


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## rockstarIN

ToT is a very difficult term, isn't it? I think we should try reverse engineering so that in case of a sanction, we can keep the supply chain rolling.


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## kingdurgaking

rockstar said:


> ToT is a very difficult term, isn't it? I think we should try reverse engineering so that in case of a sanction, we can keep the supply chain rolling.



Yeah... but reverse engineering may look good.. But there wont be any improvement.. You will reverse engineer to find the source.. But you wont have the knowledge of what is the cause that lead to the source..(e.g) You reverse engineer SCB to find the source as NiAlchr Alloy.. But after that? you will do only the replica and you will try permutations and combinations .. By which you will get lot of failures and more than that you will not provide a competitive one(the situation that China is facing now) some times you will get success but that wont do any good.. But when you *invent *NiAlchr alloy you will understand the depth of what it is and the knowledge on that Alloys what are the uses benefits and demerits , what bond is actually working inside the alloy mix etc etc... so your ideas on scaling it further will be easy and more dynamic with very less failures.. Here you can produce more competitive one and this knowledge adds to your golden crown... above all you will be successful... *This is called design technology which no one will share*

That is why when you speak with any scientist they dont believe on ToT.. May be on software side if you get the code in ToT there will be little advantage.. still you will go only in that angle.. you will not be able to think out of box...

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## CONNAN

can any body explain why we did not ask our russian friends for engine for tejas MARK 1 during the initial days of our development i mean when we actually planned to build the tejas during 80's this question haunts me a lot ????


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## kish

kingdurgaking said:


> Yeah... but reverse engineering may look good.. But there wont be any improvement.. You will reverse engineer to find the source.. But you wont have the knowledge of what is the cause that lead to the source..(e.g) You reverse engineer SCB to find the source as NiAlchr Alloy.. But after that? you will do only the replica and you will try permutations and combinations .. By which you will get lot of failures and more than that you will not provide a competitive one(the situation that China is facing now) some times you will get success but that wont do any good.. But when you *invent *NiAlchr alloy you will understand the depth of what it is and the knowledge on that Alloys what are the uses benefits and demerits , what bond is actually working inside the alloy mix etc etc... so your ideas on scaling it further will be easy and more dynamic with very less failures.. Here you can produce more competitive one and this knowledge adds to your golden crown... above all you will be successful... This is called design technology which no one will share
> 
> That is why when you speak with any scientist they dont believe on ToT.. *May be on software side if you get the code in ToT there will be little advantage*.. still you will go only in that angle.. you will not be able to think out of box...



no dude ,, its apply on software too .. you can only go to dept when u do urself ,,,


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## kish

self deleted


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## SpArK

*LCA Engine Comes Up At Lockheed Briefing​*





Am at a Lockheed-Martin briefing today

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: LCA Engine Comes Up At Lockheed Briefing


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## MAFIAN GOD

> can any body explain why we did not ask our russian friends for engine for tejas MARK 1 during the initial days of our development i mean when we actually planned to build the tejas during 80's this question haunts me a lot ????



I THINK THIS HAD HAPPENNED BCOZ AT FIRST WE THOUGHT THAT WE CAN DELIVER EVERYTHING IN RIGHT PLACE AND RIGHT TIME.
NO ONE THOUGHT OF LACK OF FINANCE FOLLOWED BY NUKE TESTS FOLLOWED BY US EMBARGO.
DIFFICULTY LIST CAN GO ON AND ON.


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## marcos98

*India To Fly Tejas LSP-5 Soon​*India To Fly Tejas LSP-5 Soon | AVIATION WEEK


> LSP-5 gearing-up for first flight; lit cockpit for night flying & new com set onboard; will fly on autopilot mode for first time​


Indias fifth limited-series production (LSP-5) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready for its first flight.

*Indian sources confirm to AVIATION WEEK that a flight readiness review meeting was held recently and the LSP-5 will fly soon, weather permitting. LSP-4 had its first flight in June. *

Two more high-speed taxi trials are remaining and after that we will be ready for the first flight, says a senior official associated with the program. It will have internal cockpit lighting for enabling night flying, with all corrections being done. We are also testing a new communication set, similar to that on the Dhruv chopper. This would again ensure commonality of inventory in the country.

LSP-5 will be the first to test the Tejas auto-pilot mode. The autopilot is indigenously developed by the national control law team of National Aerospace Laboratories, the official says. With LSP-5, we are demonstrating all the final configuration of Tejas Mk-1, which will also be a final cockpit version. The LSP-5 will be the 11th test vehicle to join the Tejas flight line. 

The Aeronautical Development Agency is working toward a Dec. 27 deadline for the crucial release-to-service certification. For this, the Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification is working with the agency, the Defence Research & Development Organization, the National Aerospace Laboratories and aircraft provider Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Almost 70 percent of equipment has been type approved, while 70 percent of systems also have been type certified, the official says.

If the delivery schedules are met, then the Indian Air Force will have LSP-7 and LSP-8 for user evaluation trials by March 2011. LSP-6 will be a test vehicle for high angle of attack. The Tejas squadron is expected to be in Bengaluru by mid-2011 and the first two series production aircraft (SP-1, SP-2) also should be ready by then.

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## jha

It seems we are churning out LSPs at decent pace..10-12 LCAs per year should not be a problem..


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## sancho

jha said:


> It seems we are churning out LSPs at decent pace..10-12 LCAs per year should not be a problem..



But keep in mind that we have to build MKIs, then MMRCAs and later even FGFAs at the same time we produce LCAs too. If we want to produce that many a year (what i hope too), we have to increase the production capabilities further, don't you think?


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## jha

sancho said:


> But keep in mind that we have to build MKIs, then MMRCAs and later even FGFAs at the same time we produce LCAs too. If we want to produce that many a year (what i hope too), *we have to increase the production capabilities further,* don't you think?



Yes..cant disagree with this..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> But keep in mind that we have to build MKIs, then MMRCAs and later even FGFAs at the same time we produce LCAs too. If we want to produce that many a year (what i hope too), we have to increase the production capabilities further, don't you think?



Will everything will be produced in the same place?? i really doubt that.. I think it doesnt make sense because the entire production tools will be a new set altogether for MMRCA than the one that exist in NASIK where we build MKI... lly for LCA.. Logically We will move to different place for building the MMRCA and LCA .. let me know if i am wrong...


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## lionheart1

kingdurgaking said:


> Will everything will be produced in the same place?? i really doubt that.. I think it doesnt make sense because the entire production tools will be a new set altogether for MMRCA than the one that exist in NASIK where we build MKI... lly for LCA.. Logically We will move to different place for building the MMRCA and LCA .. let me know if i am wrong...



mki is built in nasik, lca will be manufactured in bangalore ,and up gradation of different planes. after mki line is over in 2016. FGFA will be manufactured in nasik , mmrca will be manufactured in different location ( i personally think it can be manufactured in hydrabad or in orissa )


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Will everything will be produced in the same place?? i really doubt that.. I think it doesnt make sense because the entire production tools will be a new set altogether for MMRCA than the one that exist in NASIK where we build MKI... lly for LCA.. Logically We will move to different place for building the MMRCA and LCA .. let me know if i am wrong...



I didn't said place, I said time!


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## kingdurgaking

> mki is built in nasik, lca will be manufactured in bangalore ,and up gradation of different planes. after mki line is over in 2016. FGFA will be manufactured in nasik , mmrca will be manufactured in different location ( i personally think it can be manufactured in hydrabad or in orissa )


Yes this is what exactly i had in my mind.. By the time FGFA comes into production.. MKI production + upgradation will be completed ... And MKI production tools can be upgraded to produce FGFA.. Even this i doubt because what HAL has said is design and manufacture of major components especially Airframe can happen in India.. so lets c.. what is actually happening.. If they are able to reuse it .. it will be a big success... While i agree it with you in other points.. Hyderbad is actually having lot of DRDO labs so it should be a design area.. While production should happen in places which are very cheap so it should be given to Eastern states or North easter states..



sancho said:


> I didn't said place, I said time!



hmmm not able to understand your view sirjee.. Time means?.. What i am projecting is .... If Fighters are produced at different place then it will be parallel production irrespective of the fighters and each production unit will have to stick to time right?... Or you have some other real time production concept in mind? because of which my view is wrong?


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## kingdurgaking

No one care to post this article my god.... what an important data



India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is currently in a blur trying to meet two heavy-duty milestones in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme -- the first flight of the carrier-borne LCA Navy in the next few weeks and initial operational clearance (IOC) of the primary air force variant of the light fighter by Christmas. But with a decision finally made recently that the GE F414 will power the MK-II, work has officially started at ADA on a part of the programme that will finally deliver a full-fledged multirole fighter plane -- the Tejas MK-II.

The next one year will see most of the Tejas team focused on the landmark induction of the LCA into operational service with the Indian Air Force. But a wing of ADA, headed by Principal Director H Siddesha, will kickstart a string of parallel processes to get the souped up MK-II variant of the fighter jet going.

Along with a team from GE, ADA will shortly begin multidisciplinary design optimisation (MDO) of the Tejas airframe for its new engine, and therefore, operational envelope, computational fluid dynamic (CFD) studies of all new components, failure mode, effect & analysis of aeroengine components, fresh numerical master geometry & inboard drawings, a digital mockup of the entire MK-II, and of course, a wind tunnel model.

Immediately, however, the team will embark on the all-important tasks of F414 engine-airframe bay interference studies and clearance, powerplant and fuel systems design and optimisation, integration and then ground tests.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Work Officially Set To Begin On LCA Tejas MK-II


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## kingdurgaking

Interestingly if we get the details of the enhancement it would be great... It will give lot of insight.. just like the data we have for Tejas-1 in wiki..


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## sathya

i just cant wait to see LCA sparring with other air crafts, we need to see its performance in air exercise atleast. anybody got idea when this is likely to happen ?


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## Dash

sathya said:


> i just cant wait to see LCA sparring with other air crafts, we need to see its performance in air exercise atleast. anybody got idea when this is likely to happen ?


You just extended the FOC deadline.....just kiddding.
It is too early to predict that.

By the way.

Welcome to the Forum

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## Dash

ganimi kawa said:


> Do you have any definitive source on the "design" of LCA to say that there is no provision on LCA for a probe?
> 
> I find this statement a wee bit difficult to digest.



Adding a probe is not a big thing and LCA can be retrofitted with a probe, however even cobham said they can retrofit LCA with their probe and they can do by 2013-14 only. So that means, it will take time. LCA is a very compact aircraft and everything is tightly packed. so you need time to add a probe too.

There are no official statement that says what type of probe will be added and when. So Iam bit skeptical.




> I also came across a few sources who told me that IFR has been tested in one of the PV series. Trying to find more on that.



Sure even I want to see.


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## rsingh

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79067-vayu-wisdom-courage-assessment-lca-tejas.html


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## ganimi kawa

Dash said:


> Adding a probe is not a big thing and LCA can be retrofitted with a probe, however even cobham said they can retrofit LCA with their probe and they can do by 2013-14 only. So that means, it will take time. LCA is a very compact aircraft and everything is tightly packed. so you need time to add a probe too.
> 
> There are no official statement that says what type of probe will be added and when. So Iam bit skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure even I want to see.




Ok! I'll try and revise the whole sequence of events in relation to IFR probe on tejas.


1. Tejas has all the adequete plumbing and attachments for a fixed IFR probe. There have been many images of tejas with a Fixed probe like that on Mirage 2k.

This was what ADA had planned and was supposed to put this feature from PV-3 (or 2) onwards. This was mentioned in AI 05.

These are CAD images from ADA showing the probe and the plumbing arrangement.














2. However, the plan was postponed due to weight and other issues. It was decided that early LSPs will start this process.

The probe has been developed and tested on jaguars.







3. By the time, LSPs started IAF wanted the probe to be retractable to minimize RCS and drag issue. This was impossible to develop in such a short time as the space is premium in a tightly packed craft like tejas.

It is here that Cobham enters. They will develop the retractable probes for both mk1 and 2.This is independent from mk2 program.



> &#8220;We will develop and design a retractable refueling probe,&#8221; Griffiths says. &#8220;LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ... Unfortunately, we&#8217;re later in the design period. We will roll out the retractable [version] by 2013-14.&#8221;




4.* So now, the plan is that ADA will demonstrate IFR with fixed probe on few of the SP aircrafts for tejas to get it's FOC by 2012.

Retrctable IFR probe will be out by 2013*. And will be retrofitted on both mk1 and mk2.


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## Dash

ganimi kawa said:


> Ok! I'll try and revise the whole sequence of events in relation to IFR probe on tejas.
> 
> 
> 1. Tejas has all the adequete plumbing and attachments for a fixed IFR probe. There have been many images of tejas with a Fixed probe like that on Mirage 2k.
> 
> This was what ADA had planned and was supposed to put this feature from PV-3 (or 2) onwards. This was mentioned in AI 05.
> 
> These are CAD images from ADA showing the probe and the plumbing arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. However, the plan was postponed due to weight and other issues. It was decided that early LSPs will start this process.
> 
> The probe has been developed and tested on jaguars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. By the time, LSPs started IAF wanted the probe to be retractable to minimize RCS and drag issue. This was impossible to develop in such a short time as the space is premium in a tightly packed craft like tejas.
> 
> It is here that Cobham enters. They will develop the retractable probes for both mk1 and 2.This is independent from mk2 program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.* So now, the plan is that ADA will demonstrate IFR with fixed probe on few of the SP aircrafts for tejas to get it's FOC by 2012.
> 
> Retrctable IFR probe will be out by 2013*. And will be retrofitted on both mk1 and mk2.


Thanks for that Update Ganimi -
Even I did some research on that and found out that the earlier (in the 90s) models of Tejas had IFR on it.

However we dont see any sign if it, Lets just hope that they fit it, I was thinking the Naval LCA to have an IFR, even that one has come bald.

So, now I think do theey really have plans or just waiting for Mk2.


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## trident2010

*DRDO hands over Indian Integrated Life support technology for Tejas fighter aircraft Project *


DRDo today handed over an integrated life support system (ILSS) for fighter aircraft is a state of the art technology for the IAF&#8217;s LCA Tejas fighter aircraft project. ILSS enables a fighter pilot to venture to the limits of the aircraft capability in terms of flight altitudes and G-forces. This technology had hitherto been the hallmarks of the few highly advanced countries. Now Defence Bioengineering & Electro medical Laboratory (DEBEL) Bangalore, under DRDO, has taken a lead in this technology that, to start with, will go into Tejas aircraft. The engineering model of ILSS prototype has been rolled out from DEBEL Bangalore by Dr W Selvamurthy, Distinguished Scientist and Chief Controller R&D (Life Sciences) of DRDO. The ILSS consisting of 12 Line Replacement Units (LRUs) has been handed over to Dr PS Subramanyam, Distinguished Scientist, Program Director-CA and ADA, for fitment and further trials.

ILSS essentially performs the tasks of protecting the pilots against the extremes of altitudes, severe G forces imposed during aerial combats and also provide breathing 100&#37; oxygen in the case of ejection from aircraft. The On-board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) keeps the pilots&#8217; oxygen status always to the sea level condition despite being at high altitudes. The OBOGS enables the aircraft to undertake long endurance task, free from the burdens of recharging the Oxygen gas. The Demand Oxygen Regulator (DOR) ensures that the breathing gas is delivered as per requirement at various altitudes and also during anti-G straining maneuvers (AGSM) that the pilot undertakes during combat operations. The anti-G valve (AGV) renders adequate G-suit inflation pressure to prevent G-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC). There is a unique electronic control unit (ECU) that ensures proper OBOGS functioning with changing altitudes, monitoring the ILSS and also activates the back-up system in the case of any failure. It is a unique technology that takes care of both single and dual pilot operations.

This important milestone could be achieved due to the untiring effort of the DEBEL scientists led by its Director, Dr VC Padaki with the guidance of Chief Executive of CEMILAC, Dr K Tamilmani and able support of the teams from ADA, HAL, RCMA(a/c), DGAQA, NFTC and IAM. L&T has played a big role as development partner to DEBEL in manufacturing of the ILSS. The ILSS at a later date, can also be customized to the needs of other Indian aircraft capable of long duration flights like MiG-29, SU-30, Mirage-2000 etc.



:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> 4.* So now, the plan is that ADA will demonstrate IFR with fixed probe on few of the SP aircrafts for tejas to get it's FOC by 2012.
> 
> Retrctable IFR probe will be out by 2013*. And will be retrofitted on both mk1 and mk2.



That's what I meant!

Btw, I hope they don't put the refueling probe at the nose section, because it already offers limited space only. A configuration like the Gripen would be the better idea and we could use the F16IN version too (although not in CFTs):


*Gripen*






*F16IN*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1030723-post2358.html


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## hellofriends

do anyone have idea that naval lca has mid air refueling system or not. as i know lca airforce version has no these type of system.

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## sathya

how beneficial would life support system can give for a short range aircraft like tejas. 
su mki would benefit the most .
in high G s you cannot pressurise the whole cabin to reduce G effect. 
G suite would do that job.
guru s can shed light on this

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## elite

Tejas Cockpit Better Suits 'Taller' Pilots, Ergonomics Corrected LSP-5 Onward






The ergonomics of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas cockpit better suit the Indian Air Force's tallest pilots, compared to pilots who are of 'low' or 'medium' height. In other words, the cockpit wasn't configured and designed with a democratic mix of height permutations. Identified as a problem last year, the LCA's cockpit ergonomics have been reconfigured -- the 'new' cockpit will feature for the first time on the fifth limited series production aircraft (LSP-5) that is expected to make its first flight any time now. While specifics are not available yet, the changes include placement/configuration of the HUD, multifunction displays and function selector panels.

Issues with the cockpit ergonomics first figured in conclusions drawn by the Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Sciences (DIPAS) after it was instructed late last year to conduct an ergonomic evaluation of twin-seat trainer PV-5 cockpit. According to sources, a digital model of the Tejas cockpit along with various digital human models (DHM) of different height percentiles among IAF pilots were fed into an evaluation program called Jack. The three DHMs were 2.5th percentile, 50th percentile and 97.5th percentile representing the shortest, average and tallest IAF personnel. The eval threw up the fact that the existing cockpit design and man-machine interface was best suited to the third DHM. Changes were recommended through a detailed report along with a fresh digital cockpit model. The new cockpit is ostensibly now optimal for a larger percentile of IAF pilots.


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## sathya

India's Medium Combat Aircraft to achieve maiden flight 'in seven years'
India's indigenously designed twin-engine Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) is scheduled to achieve its maiden flight within seven years, Dr S Prahlada, Chief Controller of...
08-Nov-2010
janes defense weekly


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## sathya

tejas mk 2 should achieve FOC before that..


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## ganimi kawa

*Tarmak007 Alert: LSP-5 to fly any time now*



> The fifth platform from Tejas LSP block (LSP-5) will kiss the sky any time now. Team Tejas seems to have sorted out last-minute issues and the flight might take place any time now, weather-permitting. The flight is expected today...tomorrow...



GO TEJAS!

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## marcos98

LSP-4 had its first flight in June. LSP-5 now, the program is indeed moving full speed ahead.
way to go


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## MST

marcos98 said:


> LSP-4 had its first flight in June. LSP-5 now, the program is indeed moving full speed ahead.
> way to go



That's almost 5 months. Isn't that a lot of time?

BTW all the best for the LSP 5 first flight. Keeping fingers crossed


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## Lord Of Gondor

Guys,when in class i heard a fighter jet go above us.The sound was absolute music to my ears!Hope this is the LSP-5!I have also seen the tejas(i think it is tejas as no other delta winged platforms are near by)flying almost everyday!


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## MAFIAN GOD

sathya said:


> India's Medium Combat Aircraft to achieve maiden flight 'in seven years'
> India's indigenously designed twin-engine Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) is scheduled to achieve its maiden flight within seven years, Dr S Prahlada, Chief Controller of...
> 08-Nov-2010
> janes defense weekly



THAT MEANS AMCA WILL HAVE ITS FIRST FLIGHT BY 2018.
SO IAF WILL HAVE ATLEAST ONE SQUADRON BY 2025.

I THINK BY THE FIRST FLIGHT OF AMCA WE WILL INDUCT LCA MK-2.


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## marcos98

*DRDO Delivers Life Support System For Tejas Pilots | AVIATION WEEK​*




By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru

The Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has developed an Integrated Life Support System (ILSS) for fighter aircraft pilots, potentially adding India to a group of nations owning such technology. DRDOs Bengaluru-based Defense Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (Debel), which developed the ILSS,delivered the documents to Tejas program chief P.S. Subramanyam recently for fit and further trials.

An ILSS for fighter aircraft is a state-of-the-art technology that enables a fighter pilot to venture to the limits of the aircraft capability in terms of flight altitudes and g-forces. This technology had until now been the hallmark of the few highly advanced countries. The first batch of ILSS will go into Tejas aircraft, Debel Director V.C. Padaki tells Aviation Week.

In addition to Tejas, the ILSS can also be customized to the needs of MiG-29, Su-30 and Mirage 2000. The system helps protect pilots against the extremes of altitudes and severe g forces imposed during aerial combats, as well as providing for breathing 100% oxygen in the case of ejection from aircraft.

The On-board Oxygen Generation System (Obogs) keeps the oxygen status of pilots at sea-level condition despite being at high altitudes. It enables the aircraft to undertake long-endurance tasks, free from the burdens of recharging oxygen. The Demand Oxygen Regulator ensures that oxygen is delivered as per requirement at various altitudes and also during anti-g straining maneuvers that the pilot undertakes during combat operations. An anti-g valve renders adequate g-suit inflation pressure to prevent g-induced loss of consciousness, explains Padaki.

There is an electronic control unit that ensures proper Obogs functioning with changing altitudes, monitoring the ILSS and activating the back-up system in the case of failure. This technology is used to take care of both single- and dual-pilot operations.

Tejas chief P.S. Subramanyam says that the system has come at the right time when the program is entering a crucial phase. With the Dec. 27 deadline set for release to service of Tejas and so much of activities hovering around it, the ILSS has added yet another indigenous element to the Tejas program, Subramanyam says.

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## Mirza Jatt

*DRDO Delivers Life Support System For Tejas Pilots*

The Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has developed an Integrated Life Support System (ILSS) for fighter aircraft pilots, potentially adding India to a group of nations owning such technology. DRDO&#8217;s Bengaluru-based Defense Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (Debel), which developed the ILSS,delivered the documents to Tejas program chief P.S. Subramanyam recently for fit and further trials. 

&#8220;An ILSS for fighter aircraft is a state-of-the-art technology that enables a fighter pilot to venture to the limits of the aircraft capability in terms of flight altitudes and g-forces. This technology had until now been the hallmark of the few highly advanced countries. The first batch of ILSS will go into Tejas aircraft,&#8221; Debel Director V.C. Padaki tells Aviation Week.

In addition to Tejas, the ILSS can also be customized to the needs of MiG-29, Su-30 and Mirage 2000. The system helps protect pilots against the extremes of altitudes and severe g forces imposed during aerial combats, as well as providing for breathing 100&#37; oxygen in the case of ejection from aircraft. 

The On-board Oxygen Generation System (Obogs) keeps the oxygen status of pilots at sea-level condition despite being at high altitudes. &#8220;It enables the aircraft to undertake long-endurance tasks, free from the burdens of recharging oxygen. The Demand Oxygen Regulator ensures that oxygen is delivered as per requirement at various altitudes and also during &#8216;anti-g straining maneuvers&#8217; that the pilot undertakes during combat operations. An anti-g valve renders adequate g-suit inflation pressure to prevent g-induced loss of consciousness,&#8221; explains Padaki. 

There is an electronic control unit that ensures proper Obogs functioning with changing altitudes, monitoring the ILSS and activating the back-up system in the case of failure. This technology is used to take care of both single- and dual-pilot operations.

Tejas chief P.S. Subramanyam says that the system has come at the right time when the program is entering a crucial phase. &#8220;With the Dec. 27 deadline set for release to service of Tejas and so much of activities hovering around it, the ILSS has added yet another indigenous element to the Tejas program,&#8221; Subramanyam says. 

DRDO Delivers Life Support System For Tejas Pilots | AVIATION WEEK


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## SpArK

*LCA Tejas To Lose "LCA" Tag In February 2011​*





When the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) flies at Aero India 2011, it will no longer be referred to as the "LCA", an acronym it has had since the project took birth in the early 1980s. The LCA tag will be dropped permanently, though a replacement HF (Hindustan Fighter) designation remains inexplicably delayed. The original plan was to have an HF designation in place by October this year ahead of initial operational clearance (IOC) in December. Will be posting in detail shortly on the various hurdles the team is still grappling with ahead of IOC. These include angle of attack, sustained turn rate (STR) and speed at low altitudes.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: LCA Tejas To Lose "LCA" Tag In February 2011

​

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## MAFIAN GOD

I think HF is very lame.Marut also had this designation==>HF-Marut
Hey guys
what you will suggest the designation for tejas?
I think I-1 would be better or
if we consider Marut as I-1 then this will be I-2 or I-Tejas.
Note that HAL-AJEET was a derivative of Folland-Gnat.So we should not consider it.


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## MAFIAN GOD

I think its time to rename the thread
TEJAS News & Discussions

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## sathya

KAI seeks additional partners for KF-X fighter 
By Greg Waldron

Korea Aerospace Industries is talking to external parties about participating in its KF-X fighter programme, with Indonesia's planned involvement yet to be confirmed.

"We're not sure yet who we'll be working with on the KF-X," says Enes Park, executive vice-president at KAI. "More countries could come in." The South Korean government will provide 60&#37; of the required funds for the programme, he adds, with the remainder to be sourced from "external parties".

While he does not rule out Indonesia's participation in the programme, Park says KAI is now speaking with "several countries".

At the Farnborough air show in July, South Korea signed a memorandum of understanding with Indonesia, with the latter to potentially contribute up to 20% of the KF-X development costs. Seoul was also in discussions with Turkey at that time.

The KF-X programme envisages the production of around 120 fighters for the South Korean air force. However, a potential price tag of around $8 billion has caused successive South Korean governments to balk at giving the project the go-ahead. The involvement of other countries could reduce costs for Seoul.





india can rope in south korea in tejas mk2 ... it will reduce development time for sk 
india can gain in some areas also get business.


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## FulcrumD

The HF designation is quite ok and meaningful for an indigenous fighter,it can be designated as HF-2000 or something in the line of it.


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## Rumpelstilskin

We Could Put HF-8055 TEJAS (BOSS)


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## sathya

may be IF - 2010 tejas ( indian fighter)


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## rockstarIN

if? 

No man, no more ifs and buts.

There are alot, already

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## SpArK

HF sounds thoroughly odd.. IF is better..


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## INDIAN007

Or may be we should go for IAF tejas [ Indian airforce fighter ] just like INS in navy [ indian navy ship ]


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## sathya

then it ll b IAFF


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## SEAL

Sad news for LCA fans and jingoos. 
*It seems all LCA prototypes are grounded not a single flight from18Oct 2010 till now.*
Archives


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## unicorn148

If they have not mentioned about the Test flight is not that they are grounded........


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## kingofkings

fox said:


> Sad news for LCA fans and jingoos.
> *It seems all LCA prototypes are grounded not a single flight from18Oct 2010 till now.*
> Archives



Here comes the troll ....


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## sathya

may be all are going to be upgraded to final configuration

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## kish

I hear only two will first deliver first for FOC .. LSP 5 and further not the older one


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## SpArK

FAN ART: All-Chrome LCA Tejas!







Livefist follower Abhishek Kaushal sent me the above image today, his render of the Light Combat Aircraft. In his own words, "This is my first attempt at rendering, and I don't know why I put an all-chrome finish on the LCA body".  Still pretty slick.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FAN ART: All-Chrome LCA Tejas!

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## trident2010

*State Agency Busy, Private Industry To Build Composites For Production LCA Tejas*


With series production of the Tejas MK-1 to begin shortly to service an order for 20 (+20) aircraft for the Indian Air Force's inaugural LCA squadron, the Tata Group will, fortuitously enough, build the aircraft's most complex composite parts, giving the production series of the aircraft a decidedly more substantial private sector component that originally planned. The decision to rope in Tata's Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML) to build 20 sets of composites for the first 20 Tejas MK-1 jets was taken after India's state-owned National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) first accepted the task, despite being a strictly design and development agency, and then said its hands were full ("oh and hey, we're not a production agency") with reviving the Saras (more on that later) and other civil airplane programmes. Tata will produce 13 major composite parts for each of the 20 Tejas MK-1 fighters. These include parts in the centre fuselage, undercarriage doors, fin and rudder.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: State Agency Busy, Private Industry To Build Composites For Production LCA Tejas


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## Hulk

trident2010 said:


> *State Agency Busy, Private Industry To Build Composites For Production LCA Tejas*
> 
> 
> With series production of the Tejas MK-1 to begin shortly to service an order for 20 (+20) aircraft for the Indian Air Force's inaugural LCA squadron, the Tata Group will, fortuitously enough, build the aircraft's most complex composite parts, giving the production series of the aircraft a decidedly more substantial private sector component that originally planned. The decision to rope in Tata's Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML) to build 20 sets of composites for the first 20 Tejas MK-1 jets was taken after India's state-owned National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) first accepted the task, despite being a strictly design and development agency, and then said its hands were full ("oh and hey, we're not a production agency") with reviving the Saras (more on that later) and other civil airplane programmes. Tata will produce 13 major composite parts for each of the 20 Tejas MK-1 fighters. These include parts in the centre fuselage, undercarriage doors, fin and rudder.
> 
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: State Agency Busy, Private Industry To Build Composites For Production LCA Tejas



It is actually good news, HAL should offload work to Private players.


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## SpArK

*Kemrock-HAL inks MoU for aerospace-grade carbon-fiber pre-pegs​*

| By Anantha Krishnan M. | AVIATION WEEK |

Bangalore | India | November 16, 2010 |


Indias Kemrock Industries and Exports Ltd. (KIEL), which makes reinforced polymer composites, signed a partnership with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) on Nov. 16 for a joint venture. The new firm will develop, manufacture and market aerospace-grade carbon fiber pre-pegs, along with its associated pre-pegs for defense and aerospace programs in India.
Announcing the venture, Kalpesh Patel of KIEL said that both companies have identified opportunities for development and marketing of pre-pegs. It has immense potential in aerospace and defense programs in India, as well as globally, Patel said.

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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tracking the Tejas: Weather holds back LSP-5 flight again today

Despite being cleared by the flight readiness review board and having undertaking the most-tempting high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) a number of times, the maiden flight of the Tejas limited series production (LSP-5) had to be postponed again today (Nov 17). Ruining LSP-5's sky party in Bangalore was the weather again.
The LSP-5 has been waiting in the wing for more than a week now to kiss the Bangalore skies. This is the 11th test vehicle to joint the flightline of India's light combat aircraft (LCA) program.
"We had prepared the aircrfat ready last night hoping that the weather will clear today. The team was ready even though it is a closed holiday due to Id. Now, we are hoping for the best tomorrow and so that we could fly. Even we had an HSTT today," sources said.
Stay tuned for more updates. Hope the Weather Gods would shift their rain dance venue from Bangalore!

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## AMCA

ooooh, LSP 5 is Going to be The Last and Final Right with all the Final Configuration???


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## sathya

Rosoboronexport is preparing a contract for the delivery of additional RD-93 jet engines to China, a senior official from the company said on Tuesday.

Beijing concluded a $238-mln contract with Moscow in 2005 for supplies of a 100 RD-93 engines with options for another 400 to equip its FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter jets, jointly developed with Pakistan.

"We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai.

"We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added.

The RD-93 engines is a variant of the RD-33 engine developed to power the MiG-29 fighter jet.

The RD-93 was developed by Russia's Klimov design bureau specifically for the FC-1 fighter, known in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder.

ZHUHAI (China), November 16 (RIA Novosti) 



damn our f 414 is going to cost us 4 times than russian.


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## Lord Of Gondor

BENNY said:


> FAN ART: All-Chrome LCA Tejas!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist follower Abhishek Kaushal sent me the above image today, his render of the Light Combat Aircraft. In his own words, "This is my first attempt at rendering, and I don't know why I put an all-chrome finish on the LCA body".  Still pretty slick.
> 
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FAN ART: All-Chrome LCA Tejas!


Will make a brilliant addition to Iron-Man 3!!!


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## MAFIAN GOD

sudhir007 said:


> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tracking the Tejas: Weather holds back LSP-5 flight again today
> 
> Despite being cleared by the flight readiness review board and having undertaking the most-tempting high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) a number of times, the maiden flight of the Tejas limited series production (LSP-5) had to be postponed again today (Nov 17). Ruining LSP-5's sky party in Bangalore was the weather again.
> The LSP-5 has been waiting in the wing for more than a week now to kiss the Bangalore skies. This is the 11th test vehicle to joint the flightline of India's light combat aircraft (LCA) program.
> "We had prepared the aircrfat ready last night hoping that the weather will clear today. The team was ready even though it is a closed holiday due to Id. Now, we are hoping for the best tomorrow and so that we could fly. Even we had an HSTT today," sources said.
> Stay tuned for more updates. Hope the Weather Gods would shift their rain dance venue from Bangalore!



So I guess we will have LSP-5 flight at any day from now when the weather is clear.


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## sathya

Man i cant wait to see LCA doing some real action


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## CONNAN

sathya said:


> damn our f 414 is going to cost us 4 times than russian.



THE 414 IS 4 time more advanced than RD 93
and also we have the licence to manufacture more advanced RD-33MK series 3 so no worries


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## sageof6path

major defect with RD93 is that it will leave out a black smoke as exhaust fumes so no need for a radar tracker a soldier with shoulder fire anti aircraft missile can fire at it........... so its good for us..........


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## dingyibvs

sageof6path said:


> major defect with RD93 is that it will leave out a black smoke as exhaust fumes so no need for a radar tracker a soldier with shoulder fire anti aircraft missile can fire at it........... so its good for us..........



Where do you see that?


----------



## satishkumarcsc

sageof6path said:


> major defect with RD93 is that it will leave out a black smoke as exhaust fumes so no need for a radar tracker a soldier with shoulder fire anti aircraft missile can fire at it........... so its good for us..........



So even our MiG 29s have the same problem. RD 93 is a smoky engine...accepted. But it aint that easy to fire a MANPAD at any aircraft that easily.


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## sudhir007

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

The Indian Air Force would have to wait for another 10 months or a year for the induction of indigenously developed light combat aircraft Tejas, it has been learnt. While earlier the aircraft was slated to be inducted into the IAF by March 2011, now even the clearance to operationally fly the fighter may not be available by this period.

There has been a delay in the completion of the Tejas project and the aircraft was not likely to meet the March 2011 deadline, as had been announced by Defence Minister AK Antony, sources said.

A meeting of the Parliamentary Consultative Committee on Defence was held yesterday and the members were informed that the LCA (Tejas) was approaching the initial operational clearance scheduled for December, but the final operational clearance &#8212; after which it would be inducted into the IAF &#8212; may only be possible by next year-end, the sources said.

After the operational clearance, the first lot of fighters would be handed over to the Air Force. Subsequently, a series of tests would be conducted. A review is being conducted by the IAF Chief every quarter to check the progress on Tejas, the sources said.

Notably, a contract for the procurement of 20 Tejas was allotted to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on March 31, 2006. The total contract cost was Rs 2,701 crore. The delay in LCA production was primarily due to refinements carried out in the development phase. A total of Rs 1,712 crore has already been paid to HAL till 2009-end.

The delay in the project was due to certain technical complexities and denial of critical technology, including the fly-by-wire system, that keeps the fighter stable as its takes twists and turns, it has been learnt. The programme was originally envisaged some 25 years ago.

Meanwhile, Antony yesterday told the Parliamentary Consultative Committee that the Ministry would be making all efforts to create an environment for speedy indigenisation of defence systems and platforms. Certain policy decisions were on the anvil to give a big boost to the defence industry and for the production of futuristic weapon systems within the country. The meeting reviewed the performance of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO is working on various projects like LCA, aero-engine, electronic warfare system, long-range and medium-range missiles, early warning systems, low intensity conflict technologies, radars, armament systems, etc.

Meanwhile, members of Parliament have expressed concern over the cost and time overruns for different projects. The DRDO was asked to come back with the detail of cost and time over-runs for each project and the reasons for the delay, the sources said.


----------



## INDIAN007

sudhir007 said:


> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation
> 
> The Indian Air Force would have to wait for another 10 months or a year for the induction of indigenously developed light combat aircraft Tejas, it has been learnt. While earlier the aircraft was slated to be inducted into the IAF by March 2011, now even the clearance to operationally fly the fighter may not be available by this period.
> 
> There has been a delay in the completion of the Tejas project and the aircraft was not likely to meet the March 2011 deadline, as had been announced by Defence Minister AK Antony, sources said.
> 
> A meeting of the Parliamentary Consultative Committee on Defence was held yesterday and the members were informed that the LCA (Tejas) was approaching the initial operational clearance scheduled for December, but the final operational clearance  after which it would be inducted into the IAF  may only be possible by next year-end, the sources said.
> 
> After the operational clearance, the first lot of fighters would be handed over to the Air Force. Subsequently, a series of tests would be conducted. A review is being conducted by the IAF Chief every quarter to check the progress on Tejas, the sources said.
> 
> Notably, a contract for the procurement of 20 Tejas was allotted to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on March 31, 2006. The total contract cost was Rs 2,701 crore. The delay in LCA production was primarily due to refinements carried out in the development phase. A total of Rs 1,712 crore has already been paid to HAL till 2009-end.
> 
> The delay in the project was due to certain technical complexities and denial of critical technology, including the fly-by-wire system, that keeps the fighter stable as its takes twists and turns, it has been learnt. The programme was originally envisaged some 25 years ago.
> 
> Meanwhile, Antony yesterday told the Parliamentary Consultative Committee that the Ministry would be making all efforts to create an environment for speedy indigenisation of defence systems and platforms. Certain policy decisions were on the anvil to give a big boost to the defence industry and for the production of futuristic weapon systems within the country. The meeting reviewed the performance of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The DRDO is working on various projects like LCA, aero-engine, electronic warfare system, long-range and medium-range missiles, early warning systems, low intensity conflict technologies, radars, armament systems, etc.
> 
> Meanwhile, members of Parliament have expressed concern over the cost and time overruns for different projects. The DRDO was asked to come back with the detail of cost and time over-runs for each project and the reasons for the delay, the sources said.



What The Hell


----------



## marcos98

sudhir007 said:


> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation
> 
> The Indian Air Force would have to wait for another 10 months or a year for the induction of indigenously developed light combat aircraft Tejas, it has been learnt. While earlier the aircraft was slated to be inducted into the IAF by March 2011, now even the clearance to operationally fly the fighter may not be available by this period.
> 
> There has been a delay in the completion of the Tejas project and the aircraft was not likely to meet the March 2011 deadline, as had been announced by Defence Minister AK Antony, sources said.



The reporter is retarded, that's all.

The IAF will receive its first Tejas Mk1 fighters in the IOC configuration in March 2011 and that is what IOC is meant for, to induct the first batch with limited capabilities till the FOC capabilities are developed, tested and certified.
*
the FOC was even earlier meant to only come in 2012 end. *

Its an attempt to run down the LCA with the MMRCA decision due in a few months.

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## sudhir007

dingyibvs said:


> Where do you see that?



look at that images


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## LaBong

sudhir007 said:


> look at that images



That's a stunt not a smoky engine.


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## SpArK

*Reports On Another Tejas Delay (Meanwhile, here's more about the platform's composites)​*










Livefist


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## GORKHALI

Oh!!hahahaha did anyone read the report ? journlist might be on high ,he is confused with Foc and Ioc .Foc is always at the year end of 2011 at nov or dec. Please please someone read it too and tell me wheather am rite or wron!


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## GORKHALI

Bhai!!as per my inputs in person from sulur afs the initial number going to induct will be 5 LSP and 2 PV =TOTAL 7 LCA WILL BE INDUCTED IN AIRFORCE AFTER THIS 2 WILL BE INDUCE BEFORE DEC 2.011 .


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> look at that images



That's not the engine and we shouldn't degrade the RD 93 engine, although we know that IAF and IN are using the same. The GE engine is better, mainly in terms of thrust and maintenance that's why we wanted western engines for LCA and not the Russian that we already were producing.


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## ganimi kawa

This pic does give you an idea about the smoke problem with RD 93, though I agree with sancho that this does not make this engine worthy of scorn. 






AFAIK, this problem was being worked upon and I'd love to know the current status.


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## Capt.Popeye

sancho said:


> That's not the engine and we shouldn't degrade the RD 93 engine, although we know that IAF and IN are using the same. The GE engine is better, mainly in terms of thrust and maintenance that's why we wanted western engines for LCA and not the Russian that we already were producing.



Correct on that. The biggest plus for this (GE) engine is MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhaul) which is the bane of Russian engines.

As an illustration, the old "Killer-Boats" (OSA class) which were used by the IN in the raid on Karachi had aero-engines which had MTBOs of a few hundred hours. The engines had to be pulled out and replaced completely for an overhaul. So operational hours were low.


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## anoop

wasnt problem of black smoke coming out of mig-29 was solved. is it or not?


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## GORKHALI

Finally LSP 5 DID ITS MAIDEN FLIGHT
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: LSP-5 Maiden Flight

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## GORKHALI

Congrats to HAL AND DRDO !


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## AMCA

any pictures guys??


----------



## Dash

Actually from what I saw, there were 2 LCAs that flew today. One sure was LSP5. But why 2?, May be it was joined by earlier LSPs..


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## Sam Dhanraj

Dash said:


> Actually from what I saw, there were 2 LCAs that flew today. One sure was LSP5. But why 2?, May be it was joined by earlier LSPs..



The Second LCA was the chase aircraft (PV-3), piloted by Gp Capt Thomas according to the link in Kapoor's post above.


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## INDIAN007

The Lsp 5 was flight tested today with IOC standard with all sensor including night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.


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## khatarnak gunda

oooohhhhhhhhh!!!!!

i just joined today and at the very first look, i saw the great news. one of the happiest moment of my life....


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## ganimi kawa

AMCA said:


> any pictures guys??



From Tarmak007,


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## farzansaeed07

Believe it or not. LCA is not war worthy right now. JF-17 is not only war worthy but is also being used in operations. Besides this, many countries including Turkey has shown interest in buying JF-17 Thunder. And if JF-17's are produced for exports it can 'damage' the business of Mig-29.

If Indian's think that JF-17 is a junk fighter then Mig-29 and other jets of IAF are also junk. So, I think, Indian's are only depending upon Sukhoi.


----------



## Ammyy

farzansaeed07 said:


> *Believe it or not. LCA is not war worthy right now. JF-17 is not only war worthy *but is also being used in operations. Besides this, many countries including Turkey has shown interest in buying JF-17 Thunder. And if JF-17's are produced for exports it can 'damage' the business of Mig-29.
> 
> If Indian's think that JF-17 is a junk fighter then Mig-29 and other jets of IAF are also junk. So, I think, Indian's are only depending upon Sukhoi.



*Ok leave all things aside can you proof your claim in bold part*


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## GORKHALI

DRDO said:


> *Ok leave all things aside can you proof your claim in bold part*



easy my friend we must give sneha to fresher lol


----------



## SpArK

*Fifth Tejas Limited Series Fighter Flies​*








The fifth limited series production Tejas fighter (LSP-5) flew for the first time today, piloted by Lt Cdr Ankur Jain of the Indian Navy. The aircraft is fully representative of the configuration that will achieve *initial operational clearance next month*. *The platform joins four previous LSP series jets and two prototype vechicles currently logging hours on the programme (the PV-1 hasn't flown since January this year, and the two tech demonstrators haven't flown for some time now).*

The successful flight came on an otherwise terrible day for the Indian Air Force, which lost 10 personnel (three crew + seven enlisted personnel) in a Mi-17 helicopter crash in Bomdir, Arunachal Pradesh earlier today. One Army officer also lost his life. RIP.

LiveFist


----------



## sathya

man our LCA sucks in look and shape despite being composite...
we need major redesign to have a cool stealth shape in mk 2
anyway i am very happy now we a aircraft in a config airforce is going to use
from now on IAF is going to feel the machine...


----------



## kish

sathya said:


> man our LCA sucks in look and shape despite being composite...
> we need major redesign to have a cool stealth shape in mk 2
> anyway i am very happy now we a aircraft in a config airforce is going to use
> from now on IAF is going to feel the machine...




BEAUTY IS IN WORK NOT IN LOOK ......


if LCA will do all job we are looking for ,,, it will be real beauty ,,,,,,

i love it ,,,,


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## kish

farzansaeed07 said:


> Believe it or not. LCA is not war worthy right now. JF-17 is not only war worthy but is also being used in operations. Besides this, many countries including Turkey has shown interest in buying JF-17 Thunder. And if JF-17's are produced for exports it can 'damage' the business of Mig-29.
> 
> If Indian's think that JF-17 is a junk fighter then Mig-29 and other jets of IAF are also junk. So, I think, Indian's are only depending upon Sukhoi.




please explain 
specially in term of radar, engine, avionics, fcs, weapon system ++ .................


----------



## ganimi kawa

sathya said:


> man our LCA sucks in look and shape despite being composite...
> we need major redesign to have a cool stealth shape in mk 2
> anyway i am very happy now we a aircraft in a config airforce is going to use
> from now on IAF is going to feel the machine...



Check out these pics...




















*Also the greatest beauty of tejas lies in it's aerodynamic design (please check out the cranked delta)!*


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## graphican

*No offence* but I literally laughed the moment I look from this angle. Its looking more of a tea-tray or tawa. But Congratulations India.. I hope you replace your aging Mig-21s with this one.


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## kashith

graphican said:


> *No offence* but I literally laughed the moment I look from this angle. Its looking more of a tea-tray or tawa. But Congratulations India.. I hope you replace your aging Mig-21s with this one.



Tea Tray How?

Somehow Paksitanis believe their JF-17 is shamsheere suleimani,
LCA has better T/W ratio, better wing loading ..and mig 29 's business is being threatened because it is dirt cheap to have a JF-17 , now what do you think would be better for a country which has low resources, spend money on Mig-29 which can give fight to F-16 or Jf-17 which will be mostly used in ground attack or against other poor armies with pathetic air force.


----------



## kashith

and we have been listening about Mk-2 and what not other versions of Jf-17 well, LCA has shown its naval version as well.so what about that?
Hasnt it shown enough versatility to be redesigned as a naval version?and very soon we will start producing the Mk2 version of Tejas too...


----------



## graphican

kashith said:


> Tea Tray How?
> 
> Somehow Paksitanis believe their JF-17 is shamsheere suleimani,
> LCA has better T/W ratio, better wing loading ..and mig 29 's business is being threatened because it is dirt cheap to have a JF-17 , now what do you think would be better for a country which has low resources, spend money on Mig-29 which can give fight to F-16 or Jf-17 which will be mostly used in ground attack or against other poor armies with pathetic air force.



Well for the scenario that you have just put, I would rather buy an LCA. Mig-29 and JFT are out of discussion for sure.


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## ganimi kawa

graphican said:


> *No offence* but I literally laughed the moment I look from this angle. Its looking more of a tea-tray or tawa. But Congratulations India.. I hope you replace your aging Mig-21s with this one.




None taken! 

What is looking like a tea-tray or a tawa to you is actually called a delta shaped wing (tailless delta in this case) by those literate in the aviation terms. This configuration is used by a lot of fighters in the world. Following are the examples.

Dassault Mirage III
Dassault Mirage IV
Dassault Mirage 2000

Chengdu J-7
Chengdu J-9
Chengdu J-10

So, there is a tawa in the PAF too!






P.S. *Please google "compound cranked delta" to get some astonishing info on this "tea-tray"!*

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## Kinetic

sathya said:


> man our LCA sucks in look and shape despite being composite...
> we need major redesign to have a cool stealth shape in mk 2
> anyway i am very happy now we a aircraft in a config airforce is going to use
> from now on IAF is going to feel the machine...



No, LCA looks cool and the best looking aircraft currently IAF have. What sucks is your knowledge about LCA learn something more about LCA's design and features before commenting.


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## sathya

Kinetic said:


> No, LCA looks cool and the best looking aircraft currently IAF have. What sucks is your knowledge about LCA learn something more about LCA's design and features before commenting.




i ve been following up LCA about 10 years now since 2001...though i am not expert in LCA, i am always interested in our LCA...
i dream about it..
in fact i regret always, not being in aeronautical engineering..
i just wanted LCA to look better...( thats *my* honest opinion)
anyway my expectations will always be high...and also i know shape dont matter in war as long as it wins


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## Kinetic

sathya said:


> i ve been following up LCA about 10 years now since 2001...though i am not expert in LCA, i am always interested in our LCA...
> i dream about it..
> in fact i regret always, not being in aeronautical engineering..
> i just wanted LCA to look better...( thats *my* honest opinion)
> anyway my expectations will always be high...and also i know shape dont matter in war as long as it wins



But your previous view doesn't support that. If someone call a nice looking thing 'sucks' that it is not anything bad about the thing but problem is about the knowledge.


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## sathya

Kinetic said:


> But your previous view doesn't support that. If someone call a nice looking thing 'sucks' that it is not anything bad about the thing but problem is about the knowledge.




i already told am not an expert... 
now i ll even agree that i lack knowledge...
but still i can express what i feel, right ?


----------



## Kinetic

sathya said:


> i already told am not an expert...
> now i ll even agree that i lack knowledge...
> but still i can express what i feel, right ?



You can call for redesigning Tejas just to make it 'cool' because it 'looks' really 'sucks' so I can also express my view against what I feel not correct, rite?


----------



## kish

sathya said:


> i ve been following up LCA about 10 years now since 2001...though i am not expert in LCA, i am always interested in our LCA...
> i dream about it..
> in fact i regret always, not being in aeronautical engineering..
> i just wanted LCA to look better...( thats *my* honest opinion)
> anyway my expectations will always be high...and also i know shape dont matter in war as long as it wins



i m not concern about its look..
its our believe how its look

but more about a indigenous radar and engine.
coz it will also help our future projects


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## sathya

kish said:


> i m not concern about its look..
> its our believe how its look
> 
> but more about a indigenous radar and engine.
> coz it will also help our future projects


 


yeah thats true .... 
engine and radar are not indigenous yet, even the mk 1
design has gone to mk 2


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## smartindian

[Well for the scenario that you have just put, I would rather buy an LCA. Mig-29 and JFT are out of discussion for sure. ]

we wont give fighter on soft loan . so your dream will remain a dream


----------



## sathya

Kinetic said:


> You can call for redesigning Tejas just to make it 'cool' because it 'looks' really 'sucks' so I can also express my view against what I feel not correct, rite?



yup... we ll end this here....


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## trident2010

*CLOSE-UPS: Tejas LSP-5 On Its First Flight*


















http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/close-ups-tejas-lsp-5-on-its-first.html

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## notorious ausiee

hi i am not up to date with lca tejas..my bad i just want to know from you guys that is that any structural changes in tejas during these developments like we normaly see in other jets..during their developments thnx


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## sathya

some additions are made in the rear section, infront and side of tail...


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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007

MACHINIST - CTTC, Bhubaneswar to produce certain Control System components for LCA

*Bhubaneswar: The Central Tool Room & Training Centre (CTTC), Bhubaneswar has been identified by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as the production centre for the bulk production of Fuel and Environmental Control System components for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).*

*The Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) selected CTTC for successful absorption of manufacturing technology of these components, after assessing for bulk production capability. The components have been validated through special tests on the components manufactured by CTTC.*

Shri PS Subramaniam, PGD (CA), Director, ADA and Dr K Tamilmani, CE, CEMILAC, jointly issued the certificate to Shri Sibasis Maiti, General Manager, CTTC, to recognise as the production centre for manufacturing of Fuel and Environmental Control System components of LCA in the presence of Shri Satyananda Mishra, Information Commissioner, Govt of India.

The design and development of the Fuel and Environmental Control System components was done by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in association with Government Tool Room and Training Centre (GTTC), Bangalore.


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## farhan_9909

One more thing
'
'




'
'
this is official video.and it states that the empty weight of LCA is 6500kg?

how the hell it is lighter then Jf-17..

and the video states that it take off weight is 9500kg then it means it carries only 3500kg weapons..
the specs about weight is at 5:10


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## jha

farhan_9909 said:


> One more thing
> '
> '
> YouTube - IAF LCA Tejas in action & ADA infrastructure
> '
> '
> this is official video.and it states that the empty weight of LCA is 6500kg?
> 
> how the hell it is lighter then Jf-17..
> 
> and the video states that it take off weight is 9500kg then it means it carries only 3500kg weapons..
> the specs about weight is at 5:10



It was supposed to be the lightest aircraft and it is ..no surprise in that...The final goal was to keep the weight at 5500-5800 Kgs. It is still a little over weight.

Regarding the take off weight-- that is TOW in clean config.


----------



## LaBong

farhan_9909 said:


> One more thing
> '
> '
> YouTube - IAF LCA Tejas in action & ADA infrastructure
> '
> '
> this is official video.and it states that the empty weight of LCA is 6500kg?
> 
> how the hell it is lighter then Jf-17..
> 
> and the video states that it take off weight is 9500kg then it means it carries only 3500kg weapons..
> the specs about weight is at 5:10



Because of more use of composite.


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## khatarnak gunda

sudhir007 said:


> MACHINIST - CTTC, Bhubaneswar to produce certain Control System components for LCA
> 
> *Bhubaneswar: The Central Tool Room & Training Centre (CTTC), Bhubaneswar has been identified by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as the production centre for the bulk production of Fuel and Environmental Control System components for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).*
> 
> *The Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) selected CTTC for successful absorption of manufacturing technology of these components, after assessing for bulk production capability. The components have been validated through special tests on the components manufactured by CTTC.*
> 
> Shri PS Subramaniam, PGD (CA), Director, ADA and Dr K Tamilmani, CE, CEMILAC, jointly issued the certificate to Shri Sibasis Maiti, General Manager, CTTC, to recognise as the production centre for manufacturing of Fuel and Environmental Control System components of LCA in the presence of Shri Satyananda Mishra, Information Commissioner, Govt of India.
> 
> The design and development of the Fuel and Environmental Control System components was done by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in association with Government Tool Room and Training Centre (GTTC), Bangalore.





this is really a good news. we are having one-by-one news that the private players are involved in the manufacturing of LCA. previously TATA was selected for producing some composite components.

really good.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

good news abt private participation.


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## Young Wolf

Is there going to be any weight reduction in lca mk2?? i cant find any such news ...or do they not need to reduce weight considering the more powerful engine?


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## sathya

IAF wants more capability so there is no chance of wt reduction instead aircraft itself is going to get bigger


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## farhan_9909

jha said:


> It was supposed to be the lightest aircraft and it is ..no surprise in that...The final goal was to keep the weight at 5500-5800 Kgs. It is still a little over weight.
> 
> Regarding the take off weight-- that is TOW in clean config.



i mean does it means still the weight of LCA is 6500kg?

or it is reduced.

while from this video it quotes the empty weight of LCA is 6500kg which is similer to jf empty weight

while wiki quotes that LCA empty weight is 5500kg..


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## farhan_9909

Abir said:


> Because of more use of composite.



How is it lighter then Jf-17 when jf-17 empty weight is 6400kg while LCA empty weight is 6500kg?

it means right now Jf-17 is the world lightest 4th generation aircraft..


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> How is it lighter then Jf-17 when jf-17 empty weight is 6400kg while LCA empty weight is 6500kg?
> 
> it means right now Jf-17 is the world lightest 4th generation aircraft..



That's what he meant, it was planed to be lighter, but apart from engine and other things it gets heavier as planed. EADS is working with ADA/HAL on that issue and it is not clear at the moment what the weight of LCA is. HAL said on Defexpo this year that the weight is 5800Kg.


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## sathya

if india can get diverterless air intake tech from france , it will reduce some 300 to 400 kgs.. 
can the F 414 s6 or the kaveri -snecma be fitted with thrust vector?
is any one operating a single engine aircraft with thrust vector?


----------



## ajtr

sudhir007 said:


>


We are familiar about indian punctuality aren't we.


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## GORKHALI

ajtr said:


> We are familiar about indian punctuality aren't we.



and we are familar with your troll and false flag stories...


----------



## unicorn

*LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations*







As India&#8217;s homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) nears critical initial operational clearance next month, Indian air force officials say the aircraft will fail to meet performance requirements laid down by the service for the limited-profile Mk.1 platform.

According to an Indian air force source associated with the long-delayed indigenous fighter program, when the Tejas passes this milestone in December, it still will not be the fighter the air force had agreed to accept for limited squadron service. Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles. Exactly how far off the performance is from the specification remains classified.

The Tejas program has enlisted EADS to help expand the flight envelope to meet service requirements.

These shortfalls come on top of a thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electric&#8217;s F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version.

&#8220;We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance,&#8221; says an air force officer. &#8220;It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase,&#8221; he notes. &#8220;There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.&#8221;

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. &#8220;Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.&#8221;

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force&#8217;s Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft&#8217;s proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory.

The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.


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## ganimi kawa

Check out these videos from youtube detailing the development of various techs for tejas. Some very rare footage!

YouTube - LCA Tejas technology developemt - 1/2

YouTube - LCA Tejas technology developemt - 2/2


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## sudhir007

YouTube - LCA (Tejas), J-10 and JF-17 airshow performance comparison

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## ANG

Hi, I would not call the LCA a failure. It might not be up to the standards right now, but it will be. I think India has done a great job developing a lot of critical technologies in house, and should be proud of this achievement. Yes, it might be underpowered, and miss some specs, but V2 should rectify this. The PAF was lucky in the sense, it simply got China to develop the JF-17 for it. The F414 engine is a powerful engine and will go a long way in increasing the thurst-to-weight ratio of the LCA.

These technologies are very advanced and take time to develop. Look at how delayed the A380 and Dreamliner are, and these are being developed by aerospace giants Airbus and Boeing respectively. Take care.

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## sancho

ANG said:


> Hi, I would not call the LCA a failure. It might not be up to the standards right now, but it will be. I think India has done a great job developing a lot of critical technologies in house, and should be proud of this achievement. Yes, it might be underpowered, and miss some specs, but V2 should rectify this. The PAF was lucky in the sense, it simply got China to develop the JF-17 for it. The F414 engine is a powerful engine and will go a long way in increasing the thurst-to-weight ratio of the LCA.
> 
> These technologies are very advanced and take time to develop. Look at how delayed the A380 and Dreamliner are, and these are being developed by aerospace giants Airbus and Boeing respectively. Take care.



Actually the issue is not the thrust, but the weight that was higher than planed and as it seems design issues that causes the problems at speed and turn rates. Another point is also the usual behavior of Indian forces, to want the perfect weapon/tech from day one, instead of fielding and upgrade it during service. We will only know how capable it is when the MK1 is in operational service.


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## jjnbia

LCA Tejas is an original Indian concept. Proud & loving it.


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## brahmastra

I think we can apply following cartoon for lca.


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## jerichos

The "Next Generation" tools have arrived in India!

Must See! These next generation tools combine an electronic display and advanced mechanics
http://www.proceqasia.net

Wower!


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## sathya

LCA-Tejas has completed 1452 Test Flights successfully. (as on18-Oct-10). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-173, PV3-234,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-17, LSP3-16,LSP4-12)


----------



## sathya

jerichos said:


> The "Next Generation" tools have arrived in India!
> 
> Must See! These next generation tools combine an electronic display and advanced mechanics
> http://www.proceqasia.net
> 
> Wower!



hi, the link is not working..


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

I found this NAT GEO documentary.I think it was filmed during the PV3 launching.

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## RPK

*Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa*

India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready to undergo another round of crucial sea trials in Goa.

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank. The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa. *Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.*

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.
*
&#8220;The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,&#8221; a source said. &#8220;We will also test the radar warning receiver.&#8221;*

In addition to firing a Russian-made R-73 air-to-air missile, the *pilots are scheduled to test the safe drop tank separation from the aircraft*.

&#8220;*We have done all the ground-based tests. We are planning four-five drops at various speeds, altitudes and angles of attack*,&#8221; a source said. &#8220;*Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage*.&#8221;

Tejas also can carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.

&#8220;We have fired an R-73 missile in October 2007 against a zero target. It is important to see the safe separation of the missile,&#8221; the source said. Plume separation studies, which involve interaction with a missile&#8217;s exhaust, also will be carried out during the trials.

*Various Tejas platforms have performed 1,481 flights, clocking about 878 hr. Tejas also has achieved Mach 1.6 at 15 km. altitude and a calibrated air speed of 1,350 kph*.

Tejas is scheduled to complete its pre-initial operational clearance requirements by Dec. 27.

Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa | AVIATION WEEK


----------



## jha

*Diwali in Dabolim: Team Tejas ready for fireworks in Goa; drop tank separation, missile test on cards*

India&#8217;s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready to undergo another round of crucial sea trials in Goa.*This time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank.*
The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa. Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.
Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time. *In addition to firing a Russian-made R-73 air-to-air missile, the pilots are scheduled to test the safe drop tank separation from the aircraft. Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage. It can also carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.*











Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Diwali in Dabolim: Team Tejas ready for fireworks in Goa; drop tank separation, missile test on cards


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## rockstarIN

So is it finalised that LCA will have Derby as standard BVR missile? no Astra or R-77?


----------



## Choppers

*Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas test fires R-73 close combat missile*












As a run up to the impending achieving of IOC and release to service, a Tejas detachment has been operating from INS Hansa in Goa, conducting the last phase of flight trials. One of the main objectives of the current phase of flight trials was clearing the firing envelope of air to air close combat missile from the Tejas. The R-73 missile, which is the chosen air to air close combat missile for the Tejas. The missile is integrated with the on-board Digital Stores Management System (SMS) and Open Architecture Mission and Display Computer. The missile selection is performed from the high resolution Multi Function Display (MFD) pages integrated with the state of the art on-board avionics. All these equipments form the IOC standard of Avionics.
The test firing was done from the Tejas LSP-4 aircraft, piloted by Gp Capt. George Thomas, Group Director (Flight Test Operations) of the National Flight Test Centre, ADA. The test aircraft was accompanied by a chase Tejas piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna. This critical test was closely monitored and controlled by the Test Director Wg Cdr Toffeen, supported by the safety pilot, Gp Capt (Retd) RR Tyagi, from the mobile telemetry positioned at the test location. The data and video from the test aircraft were also available at the base station in Bangalore through a dedicated fibre optic link set up for this purpose.
This flight test demonstrated the following important requirements of the user:
a) Safe separation of the missile from the test aircraft.
b) No Missile plume effect on the engine operation.
c) Avionics and Weapon system functionality and safety interlocks.
d) Aircraft Handling quality assessment during missile release.
e) Effect of missile plume on the composite structure.
More firings of the missile are planned during the current week leading to CCM firing envelope clearance for the Tejas. The composite team of ADA, HAL, NAL and ADE designers is involved in the planning of the subsequent firing tests. The aircraft are being supported outstation by a composite HAL and IAF team with DGAQA and CEMILAC personnel. The result of this critical test has added yet another feather on the cap of &#8216;Team Tejas&#8217; and the entire team is looking forward to the successful completion of the balance tasks.

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## kingdurgaking

so the above test is done in conjunction with the Radar or it was the normal test carried like last time without any Radars?


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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^
I think this test was done already because I have seen a video of this.
What about this? Can you identify which type of LSP aircraft is this?
YouTube - Indian Air Force- Indigenous Fighter Jet - Tejas Firing R73 Missile - Part 10


----------



## kingdurgaking

MAFIAN GOD said:


> ^^^
> I think this test was done already because I have seen a video of this.
> What about this? Can you identify which type of LSP aircraft is this?
> YouTube - Indian Air Force- Indigenous Fighter Jet - Tejas Firing R73 Missile - Part 10



You tube blocked... but this is a new test as per tarmak... But need details whether it is Radar guided or the same blind test


----------



## Bagee

this thing has got potential and with a ge 414 engine it will be a killing machine for sure


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## ganimi kawa

kingdurgaking said:


> You tube blocked... but this is a new test as per tarmak... *But need details whether it is Radar guided or the same blind test*




The R-73 is an* infrared-guided (heat-seeking) missile *with a sensitive, cryogenic cooled seeker with a substantial "off-boresight" capability: the seeker can "see" targets up to 60&#176; off the missile's centerline. *It can be targeted by a helmet-mounted sight (HMS) allowing pilots to designate targets by looking at them.* Minimum engagement range is about 300 meters, with maximum aerodynamic range of nearly 30 km (18.75 mi) at altitude.


It is not radar guided. But the test should not be termed as "blind" AFAIK.



> This flight test demonstrated the following important requirements of the user:
> a) Safe separation of the missile from the test aircraft.
> b) No Missile plume effect on the engine operation.
> *c) Avionics and Weapon system functionality and safety interlocks.*
> d) Aircraft Handling quality assessment during missile release.
> e) Effect of missile plume on the composite structure.


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## gowthamraj

What type of helmet mounted sighted system tejas using


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## ganimi kawa

gowthamraj said:


> What type of helmet mounted sighted system tejas using


This one....








*Display And Sight Helmet (DASH)*

The Elbit Systems DASH III was the first modern Western HMD to achieve operational service. 

The current production variant is deployed on IDF F-15, and F-16 aircraft. Additionally, it has been certified on the F/A-18 and F-5. The DASH III has been exported and integrated into various legacy aircraft, including the MiG-21. *It also forms the baseline technology for the US JHMCS.*

The DASH GEN III is a wholly embedded design, where the complete optical and position sensing coil package is built within the helmet . *DASH is closely integrated with the aircraft's weapon system, via a MIL-STD-1553B bus.*

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## FSLN

Bagee said:


> this thing has got potential and with a ge 414 engine it will be a killing machine for sure


Super Cruise baby....


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## MAFIAN GOD

FSLN said:


> Super Cruise baby....



You must log out now coz I think you are drunk

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## gowthamraj

Many thanks ganimi kawa 

Does you any pictures of tejas where pilot wearing HMC


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## kingdurgaking

ganimi kawa said:


> This one....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Display And Sight Helmet (DASH)*
> 
> The Elbit Systems DASH III was the first modern Western HMD to achieve operational service.
> 
> The current production variant is deployed on IDF F-15, and F-16 aircraft. Additionally, it has been certified on the F/A-18 and F-5. The DASH III has been exported and integrated into various legacy aircraft, including the MiG-21. *It also forms the baseline technology for the US JHMCS.*
> 
> The DASH GEN III is a wholly embedded design, where the complete optical and position sensing coil package is built within the helmet . *DASH is closely integrated with the aircraft's weapon system, via a MIL-STD-1553B bus.*




Is this one integerated with R-73? today there was a news we did some integration with out Russia help.. Any information if the test carried with DASH will be really fruitful


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## ganimi kawa

gowthamraj said:


> Many thanks ganimi kawa
> 
> Does you any pictures of tejas where pilot wearing HMC



Here you go, mate! Download and zoom for a closer look.
















kingdurgaking said:


> Is this one integerated with R-73? today there was a news we did some integration with out Russia help.. Any information if the test carried with DASH will be really fruitful



There is no direct statement regarding this from the ADA. However, looking at the different releases from ADA et al, we can alwys connect the dots and get a clearer picture.


1. From Tarmak007. (The part you quoted)



> &#8220;This is the first time a Tejas platform flew with a missile and later* fired in the IOC-standard avionics system*.
> 
> &#8220;The very fact that the *missile was integrated and tested on an Indian platform *without the participation of the OEM [Russia], shows the strength of India in handling such complex technologies. It is significant for all of us,&#8221;




2. From aviation week



> &#8220;The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials *we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,*&#8221; a source said. &#8220;We will also test the radar warning receiver.&#8221;




Add up the bold parts above and we can safely infer that R73 is integrated with the DASH.

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## rockstarIN

^^Wow its really a great news then....

The DASH system is looks like the same as F-35's


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## kish

ganimi kawa said:


> This one....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Display And Sight Helmet (DASH)*
> 
> The Elbit Systems DASH III was the first modern Western HMD to achieve operational service.
> 
> The current production variant is deployed on IDF F-15, and F-16 aircraft. Additionally, it has been certified on the F/A-18 and F-5. The DASH III has been exported and integrated into various legacy aircraft, including the MiG-21. *It also forms the baseline technology for the US JHMCS.*
> 
> The DASH GEN III is a wholly embedded design, where the complete optical and position sensing coil package is built within the helmet . *DASH is closely integrated with the aircraft's weapon system, via a MIL-STD-1553B bus.*


 

are we developing our own or using same one as shown ,,,

i doubt that semtel is developing that for our tejas like other equipment


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## gowthamraj

^I also some where read about samtel's own HMCs project but did't remember more


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## gowthamraj

ganimi kawa
www.samtel-thales.com 

May be tejas using topright E systems


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## ganimi kawa

gowthamraj said:


> ganimi kawa
> www.samtel-thales.com
> 
> May be tejas using topright E systems



IAF and ADA seem to be happy with DASH for the Tejas.[/B]

Avionics @ Tejas.org



> Israel furnished DASH helmet mounted display and sight (HMDS) will form an integral part of the avionics suite.






Topsight I, which is an Indian version of Thales Top owl F HMD system produced by Samtel is mentioned as a probable candidate For Tejas in future.

However Indian Navy has chosen the Top sight I for it's entire MiG 29k fleet. So it is quite possible that N-LCA may have this one integrated with it. Here is some info....














*Though,Samtel has bagged the order for MFDs (totally Indian) for the Tejas!*

HAL press release



> *The next phase of this order will see Samtel Displays Systems fit MFDs for HAL&#8217;s LCA
> and IJT programs.*

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## gowthamraj

Thanks for informative post man

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## ganimi kawa

gowthamraj said:


> Thanks for informative post man



It's been a pleasure, bro!

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## timba

Very happy to see our defence sector maturing at this pace this year..
LCA, LCH,K series missiles etc...Too good..


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## sathya

Tejas LSP-4 fired another round of R-73 Today ?

By admin at 1 December, 2010, 2:35 pm

BY : IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Spotter near INS HANSA Base in Goa , spotted Tejas LSP-4 taking off at around 3.30 pm today and coming back to land at 4.15 Pm , another spotter claims to have seen Tejas Carrying Two R-73 on board when it took off , but the spotter who saw it land did not see any missile on it .

This information is based on information provided by spotters and Readers of IDRW.ORG and it cannot be verified yet by us with our sources .


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## mky7

Book Low Cost Air Tickets


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## gowthamraj

^ care to explain


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## sageof6path

mky7 said:


> Book Low Cost Air Tickets



trol


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## sudhir007



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## farhan_9909

the current empty weight of LCA is 6400kg?
can any body provide me link about this?


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## Ammyy




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## Ammyy

So its first helmet mounted display and sight in Asia ?????


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## anathema

DRDO said:


> So its first helmet mounted display and sight in Asia ?????



huh ?? HMD has been integrated since quite some time in the indian sub continent..

Su 30's , mig 29's/K's and the latest F16


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> Topsight I, which is an Indian version of Thales Top owl F HMD system produced by Samtel is mentioned as a probable candidate For Tejas in future.



Small correction, Topsight I is the Indian version of Topsight E an HMD system for fighters, while Top Owl is a HMD system for helicopters and in use with the Eurocopter Tiger for example (wonder if we get them for LCH too?):







TopOwl® helmet-mounted sight and display for helicopters - Thales


The upgraded Mirage 2000-5 will get Topsight HMS too, maybe the Dash HMS is just a stopgap for the prototypes and IAF will switch to Topsight for the serial produced LCAs for more commonality.

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## RPK

Tejas successfully test fires Chaff and Flares - The Economic Times

*Tejas successfully test fires Chaff and Flares*

BANGALORE: After the successful release of another R-73 missile , the test aircraft Tejas LSP-4 today test fired 'Chaff and Flares' from the indigenously designed Counter Measure Dispensing System (CMDS). 

Chaff is a collection of fine fibre-coated aluminium particles released from the fighter aircraft for passive jamming of the enemy air-borne radar. 

Flares are high intensity Infra Red (IR) source fired from the fighter aircraft, which acts as a passive jammer to the on-coming heat seeking enemy missile and deviates it away from the target aircraft, a DRDO release said. 

Today's test firing assumes significance as this is the first time indigenously developed CMDS was integrated and tested on an indigenous fighter aircraft with Open Architecture Mission Computer and Digital Stores Management System. 

The release and trajectory of these stores were closely monitored by another Tejas chase aircraft flown in close proximity of the test aircraft. 

Visual observation supported by analysis of video recording of the event indicated that the trial was successful, meeting the stipulated design requirements of the system. 

The test was the culmination of a long journey of Tejas from a fledgling fighter aircraft to a full blown weapon system with passive missile and radar jamming capabilities. 

Tejas detachment has been operating from INS Hansa in Goa, conducting the last phase of flight trials before release to service by the year end. It test-fired one R-73 air to air close combat missile on November 30,the release said. 

The CMDS was developed by Bharath Dynamics Ltd (BDL), Hyderabad.


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## SpArK

Great going surely the programme is picking up some speed now.


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## rockstarIN

Always love to see our own systems in our own AC.


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## sathya

only 3 weeks remaining....


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## kish

good to hear that program is going at good pace now


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## sathya

feed back from IAF after IOC is very important for further developing maturing the system...
i wish IAF also have some sort of busy schedule for tejas program and give early feedback so that with FOC air craft will kickass...


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## jha

*Tejas logs 1,500th flight; gearbox gets Type Approval from CEMILAC*

*Tejas logged the 1,500th flight today marking a small, yet significant, milestone*. Sources tell Tarmak007 that when the PV-2 [from Tejas flight-line] landed in Bangalore from Goa, it marked the 1,500th flight. Tejas first flew in 2001, January 4.
*Today's flight was piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna of NFTC. Tejas fired yet another R-73 missile (a total of 3 during this phase of sea trials) at an altitude of 15 km. At this altitude very rarely a missile is fired and in that sense it is a great achievement. Last week alone we did 25-30 flights in Goa and Bangalore, an engineer, attached to Mission Goa, said. Each flight is said to have lasted from 30-45 minutes. This again demonstrates the serviceability of the aircraft, he adds. *
*The DRDO, in the meantime, said in a press release that the Tejas gearbox was finally certified.* (See the release below as it is.)
Chennai-based CVRDE has indigenously designed and developed Aircraft-Mounted Accessory Gearbox (AMAGB) for Tejas application. The AMAGB is capable of transmitting 250 HP at 16,810 rpm with less than 38 kg of weight. AMAGB operates in two modes i.e., Starter mode and Accessory mode. In starter mode, it aids in starting the engine through Jet Fuel Starter (JFS).
In accessory mode, it drives accessories namely, two hydraulic pumps and an Integrated Drive Generator (IDG).This gearbox has undergone strenuous environmental and structural test. Further, this gearbox has also undergone 1000 hours of Endurance Test. Till date, AMAGB gearboxes have undergone more than 2000 hours of flight testing. As a pre-curser to induction into Indian Air force, 'Type Approval' from CEMILAC (Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification) is mandatory. CVRDE has successfully obtained this type approval for AMAGB from CEMILAC.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas logs 1,500th flight; gearbox gets Type Approval from CEMILAC

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## jha



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## rockstarIN

When will Astra ready to integrate LCA?


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## jha




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## jha

rockstar said:


> When will Astra ready to integrate LCA?



Atleast 6-7 years of more testing is required before it can be integrated .. And by that time imo ASTRA-2 will be ready for testing..Till then METEOR/AIM-120D, DERBY,r-77,r-73 and Python-5 will be used..
.


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> Atleast 6-7 years of more testing is required before it can be integrated .. And by that time imo ASTRA-2 will be ready for testing..Till then METEOR/AIM-120D, DERBY,r-77,r-73 and Python-5 will be used..
> .



Very slow indeed, China alreay inducted SD-10

Actually Astra-1 wanted for LCA and Astra-2 for AMCA


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## jha

rockstar said:


> Very slow indeed, China alreay inducted SD-10
> 
> Actually Astra-1 wanted for LCA and Astra-2 for AMCA



We have different philosophy...We like to test a system to death..
Remember Arjun and Tejas...


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## rockstarIN

^^
Are they testing it for star wars???


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## conworldus

jha said:


> We have different philosophy...We like to test a system to death..
> Remember Arjun and Tejas...



haha, systems need to be functional before you can induct it. Neither the Arjun nor the LCA are adequate for combat yet. China has a very solid system and the SD-10 were years in the making, too.

If there is any comfort, know that most countries in the world don't have its own missile/jet programs. At least India is trying, right


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## jha

rockstar said:


> ^^
> Are they testing it for star wars???



No need to get all worked up..We both know that our expertise in these areas are limited to some extent as of now..So, its better to be cautious ...



conworldus said:


> haha, systems need to be functional before you can induct it. Neither the Arjun nor the LCA are adequate for combat yet. China has a very solid system and the SD-10 were years in the making, too.
> 
> If there is any comfort, know that most countries in the world don't have its own missile/jet programs. At least India is trying, right



Please..Spare us your preaching..I have been here long enough..

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## sathya

By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru 

The Indian Air Force&#8217;s Tejas fighter logged its 1,500th flight on Dec. 4, marking a small, yet significant milestone in the program.

The flight was completed when the PV-2 landed at Bengaluru Military Airport from Goa Naval Station, India, sources tell Aviation Week. It was piloted by Group Capt. Suneet Krishna of the National Flight Test Center (NFTC).

The program is now confirmed to enter its initial operation clearance (IOC) phase this month. The formal release to service agreement is set to be signed Dec. 27 with the Aeronautical Development Agency, the Indian Air Force Project Management Team, the certifying agency Cemilac (Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification) and the NFTC working in tandem to iron out last-minute issues.

In recent weapon trials in Goa, the Tejas fired a total of three R-73 close combat missiles and performed a successful demonstration of chaff and flare release.

&#8220;We fired R-73 at an altitude of 12 km. (7.4 miles), which is a rarity. Last week alone we logged 25-30 flights in Goa and Bengaluru,&#8221; a source said. Each flight lasted from 30-45 min., demonstrating how quickly the aircraft can be serviced. 

In a related development, the Tejas gearbox was finally certified by Cemilac. Indigenously designed and developed by Chennai-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, the Aircraft-Mounted Accessory Gearbox is capable of transmitting 250 hp. at 16,810 rpm. with less than 38 kg. (83.7 lb.) of weight. It operates in starter and accessory modes.

&#8220;In starter mode, it aids in starting the engine through Jet Fuel Starter, while in the accessory mode it drives accessories, namely two hydraulic pumps and an Integrated Drive Generator,&#8221; said K. Jayaprakash Ra, a Defense Research and Development Organization spokesman. &#8220;This gearbox has undergone strenuous environmental and structural testing and 1,000 hr. of endurance testing. To date, the gearboxes have undergone more than 2,000 hr. of flight testing,&#8221; he said.

Cemilac says type approval for the gearbox is a precursor to Tejas&#8217; induction into IAF.


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## sathya

India and France further cemented their longstanding space ties on Dec. 4 with the visit of French President Nicolas Sarkozy to Indian Space Research Organization&#8217;s (ISRO) Satellite Center in Bengaluru.

On the occasion, ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan said that two more launch contracts have been handed over to French launch provider Arianespace.

&#8220;Two commercial agreements have been signed with Arianespace for the launches [of] GSAT-8 in 2011 and GSAT-10 in 2012,&#8221; Radhakrishnan says. &#8220;To date, Arianespace has launched 12 Indian satellites.&#8221; The contract value is pegged at Rs 500 core ($111 million).

Antrix Corporation, ISRO&#8217;s commercial wing, also renewed its contract with EADS Astrium for another five years for the commercial marketing of communication satellites. &#8220;The Megha-Tropiques and SARAL satellites, jointly developed with our French counterpart CNES, would be launched in next year,&#8221; Radhakrishnan says.

In his address, Sarkozy backed India&#8217;s candidacy for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council (UNSC). &#8220;It is unthinkable that 1.1 billion people are not represented in the UNSC. India deserves a permanent seat in the Security Council,&#8221; he says.

Sarkozy says that the binding factor for future ties between the two countries will be cooperation on nuclear energy. &#8220;It will now be the focus of our cooperation,&#8221; he says. &#8220;We all know how critical it is for India to ensure its energy security. India and France share the belief that nuclear energy can provide an unparalleled response to this challenge.&#8221;

Sarkozy supports India&#8217;s decision to expand nuclear energy by tenfold in the next 20 years. French firm Areva is supporting India in the construction of a civil nuclear plant in Jaitapur in Maharashtra. Sarkozy also lauded India&#8217;s decision to join the Nuclear Suppliers Group.

Speaking to Aviation Week, Hossein Shafife, national executive at Safran Group, says that *negotiations with India&#8217;s Defense Research and Development Organization for the co-development of the Kaveri engine for India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft are in their final stages. &#8220;This is a very important project for us,&#8221; he says. &#8220;We are offering complete transfer of technology for the design and development of Kaveri. The talks are taking good shape.&#8221;*


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## rockstarIN

conworldus said:


> haha, systems need to be functional before you can induct it. Neither the Arjun nor the LCA are adequate for combat yet. China has a very solid system and the SD-10 were years in the making, too.
> 
> If there is any comfort, know that most countries in the world don't have its own missile/jet programs. At least India is trying, right



Different countries have different standards for their armed forces..

Did any country tested all their aircrafts at humid, desert & high altitude conditions earlier?

And who told you Arjun is not combat ready, its been inducted alredy to IA, just search b4 you post something..


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## kingdurgaking

sathya said:


> Speaking to Aviation Week, Hossein Shafife, national executive at Safran Group, says that *negotiations with Indias Defense Research and Development Organization for the co-development of the Kaveri engine for Indias Light Combat Aircraft are in their final stages. This is a very important project for us, he says. We are offering complete transfer of technology for the design and development of Kaveri. The talks are taking good shape.*



Best part of france .... as always...

Hopefully if we can get the specifications of new engine in the deal it would be great


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## IND151

good luck lca!


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## sudhir007

photo after PV-2 take 1500 flight


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## kish

^ looking nice all together ,,, waiting to hear something new for ioc ,,,,,,,,


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## sudhir007

Tejas To Demonstrate Stores Release At Chitradurga Range

India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency is gearing up to start the last phase of flight trials for the Tejas light combat aircraft at Chitradurga in Karnataka, 100 mi. northwest of here.

This will be the first time the new test range of the Defense Research and Development Organization will be put to use.

Test pilots from the National Flight Test Center in Bengaluru are readying themselves to undertake the last leg of weapon trials/stores release in Chitradurga. &#8220;Currently, a series of trials are being done to characterize the aerodynamics of the platform,&#8221; a senior official associated with the program says. &#8220;This will be the first outing for Tejas in Chitradurga. We are now setting up the telemetry range.&#8221;

Aviation Week has learned that accuracy studies will be done at Chitradurga when Tejas releases stores. &#8220;It will be dummy trials to start with,&#8221; the official says. &#8220;The pilots will be taking off from Old Bangalore airport and land after finishing their mission in Chitradurga within 10-12 minutes.&#8221;

The certification process for Tejas is now entering its last lap with the Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac). &#8220;Once the proposed trials in Chitradurga are over, we would have finished all the parameters Tejas should have tested ahead of the initial operational clearance,&#8221; the official says.

An Empowered Committee Meeting is scheduled in New Delhi next week with the Indian air force chief to review the certification process. &#8220;Once we demonstrate all that the Indian air force [wants], the Cemilac will hand over the documents to the air force,&#8221; the official says. &#8220;By December 27, we are sure that the Tejas will enter the initial operational clearance phase. However, the production aircraft will be available to air force pilots only by mid-2011. There&#8217;s 100&#37; clarity on everything now.&#8221;


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## RPK

*CEMILAC Type Approval for CVRDE&#8217;s Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox of LCA *

BY: MACHINIST

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi has indigenously designed and developed Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox (AMAGB) for Light Combat Aircraft LCA-Tejas application.

CVRDE has now successfully obtained the type approval for AMAGB from CEMILAC. The Type Approval Certificate was handed over by Dr. K. Tamilmani, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Executive CEMILAC to Shri. P. Sivakumar, Director CVRDE on 04th December 2010 at a function at CVRDE, where delegates from ADA, CEMILAC and DGAQA participated.

As a pre-curser to induction into Indian Air force, &#8216;Type Approval&#8217; from CEMILAC (Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification) is mandatory.

The Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox (AMAGB) is capable of transmitting 250 HP at 16,810 rpm with less than 38 kg of weight. It operates in two modes - Starter mode and Accessory mode. In starter mode, it aids in starting the engine through Jet Fuel Starter (JFS). In accessory mode, it drives accessories namely, two hydraulic pumps and an Integrated Drive Generator (IDG).

This gearbox has undergone strenuous environmental and structural test. Further, this gearbox has also undergone 1000 hours of Endurance Test. Till date, AMAGB gearboxes have undergone more than 2000 hours of flight testing.
Categories : India 





CEMILAC Type Approval for CVRDE&#8217;s Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox of LCA

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## sudhir007

*LCA-Tejas gearbox (AMAGB) *

YouTube - LCA-Tejas gearbox (AMAGB)

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## jha



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## rockstarIN

First flight of Naval version of LCA on 27th Dec. ????

Great News then, anybody have any photograph of Naval LCA?


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## jha

^^ *here you go*..

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## jha



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## farhan_9909

when will the mass production of LCA starts?


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## AMCA

farhan_9909 said:


> when will the mass production of LCA starts?



There is No Need to mass Produce it as of now the HAL has only bagged orders for 40 IAF versions and 20 Navy Versions....according to DRDO Chief Many countries are approaching the LCA, If it is so then the HAL has the facility to Mass produce it....


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## farhan_9909

AMCA said:


> There is No Need to mass Produce it as of now the HAL has only bagged orders for 40 IAF versions and 20 Navy Versions....according to DRDO Chief Many countries are approaching the LCA, If it is so then the HAL has the facility to Mass produce it....



i think only 20 Mk1 are order and 20 more optional..and 9 from navy side..so total 29..

other countries approaching means LCA will be exported?


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## rockstarIN

^^Where as the Limited series production already started..


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## AMCA

farhan_9909 said:


> i think only 20 Mk1 are order and 20 more optional..and 9 from navy side..so total 29..
> 
> other countries approaching means LCA will be exported?



No IAF has an order of 40 and Navy of 20 mk1 Fighters..... As far as Other countries are concerned yup LCA is to be exported, But I do not know Which Countries 

I can give u the link where Dr. Saraswat says, read the Last paragraph of the below given link

The Hindu : National : Saraswat: DRDO working on India's own computer operating system


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## farhan_9909

AMCA said:


> No IAF has an order of 40 and Navy of 20 mk1 Fighters..... As far as Other countries are concerned yup LCA is to be exported, But I do not know Which Countries
> 
> I can give u the link where Dr. Saraswat says, read the Last paragraph of the below given link
> 
> The Hindu : National : Saraswat: DRDO working on India's own computer operating system



20 are order and 20 more optional..
ok lets say 40 are order for MKI means no mass production from MK1..a indian guy in orkut told me No mass production of LCA Mk1 will start and yes Mk2 will be produced in mass numbers,,

bt Mk2 is very far..as per indian officials Mk2 mass production will start by 2016..so till this time india only will have 40+20=60 LCA?

60 LCA till 2016-17


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## AMCA

farhan_9909 said:


> 20 are order and 20 more optional..
> ok lets say 40 are order for MKI means no mass production from MK1..a indian guy in orkut told me No mass production of LCA Mk1 will start and yes Mk2 will be produced in mass numbers,,
> 
> bt Mk2 is very far..as per indian officials Mk2 mass production will start by 2016..so till this time india only will have 40+20=60 LCA?
> 
> 60 LCA till 2016-17



I can Provide u a Link if u want , There are 40 IAF LCA's On Order... And It need not be mass produced as The requirement are to be met by 4 years, and It needs to achieve FOC before it could be Ordered Further more with confidence, FOC not only makes the Buys Confident but also the Maker... If LCA achieves FOC then Yeah Believe its Going to be ordered Even Further....


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## rockstarIN

Any news/Speculation about the cost per piece? not including the development cost?


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## AMCA

rockstar said:


> Any news/Speculation about the cost per piece? not including the development cost?



a Piece costs 100 crore rupees approx.... IAF ordered 40 aircraft for 4000crores ..... Its daamn too costly folks, comes around 23 Million USD


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## GORKHALI

Can anyone tell me from which newspaper this article belong ??as am on ma way to home from office so i might buy one from vendor in between!


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## kingdurgaking

The article states DNA... so it must be from DNA


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## MAFIAN GOD

jha said:


>



Look at T/W ratio.
Is it 1.07 with GE engine?

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## satishkumarcsc

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Look at T/W ratio.
> Is it 1.07 with GE engine?



Yest it is but the IAF wanted a thrust to weight ratio of more than 1 with payload.


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yest it is but the IAF wanted a thrust to weight ratio of more than 1 with payload.



Wow if they make it ... it will be one of the good capability from such a smallest fighter in the world.. IAF have always demanded best possibilities .. but the problem is they keep on changing now and then without thinking afront what they want 10 yrs from now.. which they have to learn from US counterparts


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## IND151

*



Yest it is but the IAF wanted a thrust to weight ratio of more than 1 with payload.

Click to expand...

*if they didn't demand so they would be fool. air forces from all world demand so i.e us air force.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------

*



Wow if they make it ... it will be one of the good capability from such a smallest fighter in the world.. IAF have always demanded best possibilities .. but the problem is they keep on changing now and then without thinking afront what they want 10 yrs from now.. which they have to learn from US counterparts

Click to expand...

*yes thats very true.


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## IND151

good luck to tejas. i wish it comes in our AF as early as possible.


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## RPK

*Tejas To Demonstrate Stores Release*

Tejas To Demonstrate Stores Release | AVIATION WEEK


BENGALURU, India &#8212; India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency is gearing up to start the last phase of flight trials for the Tejas light combat aircraft at Chitradurga in Karnataka, 100 mi. northwest of here.

This will be the first time the new test range of the Defense Research and Development Organization will be put to use.

Test pilots from the National Flight Test Center in Bengaluru are readying themselves to undertake the last leg of weapon trials/stores release in Chitradurga.

&#8220;Currently, a series of trials are being done to characterize the aerodynamics of the platform,&#8221; a senior official associated with the program says. &#8220;This will be the first outing for Tejas in Chitradurga. We are now setting up the telemetry range.&#8221;

Aviation Week has learned that accuracy studies will be done at Chitradurga when Tejas releases stores. &#8220;It will be dummy trials to start with,&#8221; the official says. &#8220;The pilots will be taking off from Old Bangalore Airport and land after finishing their mission in Chitradurga within 10-12 minutes.&#8221;

The certification process for Tejas is now entering its last lap with the Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac).

&#8220;Once the proposed trials in Chitradurga are over, we would have finished all the parameters Tejas should have tested ahead of the initial operational clearance,&#8221; the official says.

An Empowered Committee Meeting is scheduled in New Delhi next week with the Indian air force chief to review the certification process.

&#8220;Once we demonstrate all that the Indian air force [wants], the Cemilac will hand over the documents to the air force,&#8221; the official says. &#8220;By December 27, we are sure that the Tejas will enter the initial operational clearance phase. However, the production aircraft will be available to air force pilots only by mid-2011. There&#8217;s 100 percent clarity on everything now.&#8221;

Photo: ADA


----------



## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> *Small correction, Topsight I is the Indian version of Topsight E an HMD system for fighters, while Top Owl is a HMD system for helicopters and in use with the Eurocopter Tiger for example (wonder if we get them for LCH too?):*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TopOwl® helmet-mounted sight and display for helicopters - Thales
> 
> 
> The upgraded Mirage 2000-5 will get Topsight HMS too, maybe the Dash HMS is just a stopgap for the prototypes and IAF will switch to Topsight for the serial produced LCAs for more commonality.




*I'm talking about the TopOwl F which is renamed as Topsight by Thales-Samtel to market in india.* And it does use some techs from the helicopter version of TopOwl.



P.S. I have a pdf from thales about TopOwl-F, can someone please tell me how I can covert the pages into images so that I can post them here.


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## indushek

ganimi kawa said:


> *I'm talking about the TopOwl F which is renamed as Topsight by Thales-Samtel to market in india.* And it does use some techs from the helicopter version of TopOwl.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I have a pdf from thales about TopOwl-F, can someone please tell me how I can covert the pages into images so that I can post them here.



Download PDF Tools free download from google. There u will get the option to convert imgaes to PDF or PDF to images. Or i think u can open a PDF in paint and then save it as a JPEG.

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## AMCA

> &#8220;Once the proposed trials in Chitradurga are over, we would have finished all the parameters Tejas should have tested ahead of the initial operational clearance,&#8221; the official says.



Wonderful so December 27 Tejas Is getting IOC....


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## RPK

> P.S. I have a pdf from thales about TopOwl-F, can someone please tell me how I can covert the pages into images so that I can post them here.



use snapshot tool in adobe reader

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## ganimi kawa

Got it. Here it is.

























Thanks Indushek and rpraveenkum. 

P.S. Images in .psd format as I had to use photoshop. In case they are not visible, right click and select "open image in a new tab".

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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> I'm talking about the TopOwl F which is renamed as Topsight by Thales-Samtel to market in india. And it does use some techs from the helicopter version of TopOwl.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I have a pdf from thales about TopOwl-F, can someone please tell me how I can covert the pages into images so that I can post them here.



They are using TopOwl-F and Topsight - E are different names for the same HMS as it seems (Topsight - I in Samtel JV), but TopOwl in general is the name of the helicopter HMS.


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas to demonstrate stores release at Chitradurga range

India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency is gearing up to start the last phase of flight trials for the Tejas light combat aircraft at Chitradurga in Karnataka, 100 mi. northwest of here.This will be the first time the new test range of the Defense Research and Development Organization will be put to use. Test pilots from the National Flight Test Center in Bengaluru are readying themselves to undertake the last leg of weapon trials/stores release in Chitradurga. &#8220;Currently, a series of trials are being done to characterize the aerodynamics of the platform,&#8221; a senior official associated with the program says. &#8220;This will be the first outing for Tejas in Chitradurga. We are now setting up the telemetry range.&#8221; Aviation Week has learned that accuracy studies will be done at Chitradurga when Tejas releases stores. &#8220;It will be dummy trials to start with,&#8221; the official says. &#8220;The pilots will be taking off from Old Bangalore airport and land after finishing their mission in Chitradurga within 10-12 minutes."


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## rockstarIN

*Kaveri engine to undergo further flight tests in Russia*

HYDERABAD (PTI): India's first indigenously developed fighter aircraft engine 'Kaveri' will undergo further analysis in January in Moscow, a top government official has said.

T Mohana Rao, Director, Gas Turbine Research Establishment of the Defence ministry, said the weather there is not suitable for now and more tests on the engine will be conducted by end of January or early February.

The Kaveri engine which will be used for the 'Tejas' Light Combat Aircraft was successfully tested last month in an aircraft in Moscow.

The test data analysis indicated that the engine performance was as per the design intent, he said adding unless these engines are tested for thousands of hours, the right configuration cannot be achieved.

Kaveri engine to undergo further flight tests in Russia - Brahmand.com

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## alam.saquiba

^^^
Kudos for Kaveri..... 

When IAF will get there 20 LCA??? after IOC how many LCA will be delivered to IAF??? IS LSP 1,2 ,3 ,4 ,5 will be given as it is??? or some of them will be kept for MK II and new LCA will be made for IAF???

Please reply... I am dying to see 20 LCA fly in Delta formation... (remember thw MiG 29 flying in MiG29 shaped formation)...


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## satishkumarcsc

alam.saquiba said:


> ^^^
> Kudos for Kaveri.....
> 
> When IAF will get there 20 LCA??? after IOC how many LCA will be delivered to IAF??? IS LSP 1,2 ,3 ,4 ,5 will be given as it is??? or some of them will be kept for MK II and new LCA will be made for IAF???
> 
> Please reply... I am dying to see 20 LCA fly in Delta formation... (remember thw MiG 29 flying in MiG29 shaped formation)...



Except for LSP 6 and PV-1 everything will be given to IAF as it is. then the LCA MK1 will enter series production and the deliveries for the first 20 will be over by 2013. (If everything goes on well)


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## rajgoynar

HAL Tejas timeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sudhir007



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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^
Baptism LOL


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## AIRFORCE BRAT

what newspaper from this ?


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## sancho

AIRFORCE BRAT said:


> what newspaper from this ?



I guess this one:


> A similar report in today's Bangalore Beat




Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas to demonstrate stores release at Chitradurga range


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## sathya

with IOC date closing in, weapons store release should be over in two weeks atleast,, we can expect anytime soon


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## sudhir007

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Tejas Clears All Low-level Flight Test Points







Word just in that the LCA Tejas has completed all test points for low-level flight off the coast of Goa towards initial operational clearance. The first flight of the LCA Navy is expected soon. More details when they're in.


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## SpArK

^^^

awaiting more on this..


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## sudhir007

So there is only formalities in the IOC Man i waiting for this ................ 27 Dec


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## SpArK

What all tests are left in leading to IOC??


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## sudhir007

BENNY said:


> What all tests are left in leading to IOC??



PGM or LGB testing in chitradurga range. Fly from old airport banglore and reach to chitradurga drop bomb.

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## MAFIAN GOD

Just two big tests remaining.Its like dreams come true for HAL and ADA.


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## SpArK

*Well it was a ride we all watched.. Right from the birth to its maturity , you can find and track all information about the fighter here.. 

The work, the pain, the insults, the successes, the failures, the agonies, the optimisms, etc etc... lets all wait for the big day now, felllawsss....*


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## AIRFORCE BRAT

wow!!nice move tejas


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## AMCA

BENNY said:


> *Well it was a ride we all watched.. Right from the birth to its maturity , you can find and track all information about the fighter here..
> 
> The work, the pain, the insults, the successes, the failures, the agonies, the optimisms, etc etc... lets all wait for the big day now, felllawsss....*



Yes..... The very day when *"LCA"* Tag will be Replaced with a Brand New *"HF"* Tag.... Hindustan Fighter Tejas, Ready to Defend the Indian Sky's..


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## Markus

What number will Tejas get ?

Just like Marut was HF-24, how will be Tejas referred as ?


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## AMCA

Markus said:


> What number will Tejas get ?
> 
> Just like Marut was HF-24, how will be Tejas referred as ?



depends on The ADA or HAL chief


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## Markus

AMCA said:


> depends on The ADA or HAL chief



Hmmm.....I hope they give something special like HF-47 or HF-71 signifying those special years in India's history.


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## kingdurgaking

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Just two big tests remaining.Its like dreams come true for HAL and ADA.



what are they?


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## kingofkings

Tejas Clears All Low-level Flight Test Points
*
Word just in that the LCA Tejas has completed all test points for low-level flight off the coast of Goa towards initial operational clearance. The first flight of the LCA Navy is expected soon. More details when they're in.*

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Tejas Clears All Low-level Flight Test Points


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## AMCA

Markus said:


> Hmmm.....I hope they give something special like HF-47 or HF-71 signifying those special years in India's history.



Indeed.... I Second that.... HF-71 Tejas would Sound Awesome


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## MAFIAN GOD

kingdurgaking said:


> what are they?



Refer post #3582

Does anyone know why Marut was named HF-24?


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## kingdurgaking

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Refer post #3582
> 
> Does anyone know why Marut was named HF-24?



hmmm...

can Tejas be configured for Nuclear profile.. what will be weight of a nuclear bomb?.. 

what is the maximum load of weapon it can carry apart from external fuel tanks weight?


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## AMCA

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Refer post #3582
> 
> Does anyone know why Marut was named HF-24?



First it was Named HF-001 Marut.... The First time the Marut Did not take off , its undercarriage retracted , next time it crashed when fixed with GTRE Reheated Engine version.... The second attempt was successful and was conducted on 24 Jun 1961 ... As It was successfully test flown on 24th it was Renamed to HF-24 ...


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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^BY this logic Tejas will be HF-27.


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## AMCA

MAFIAN GOD said:


> ^^^BY this logic Tejas will be HF-27.



whats the significance of the Number 27 in the history of Tejas??


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## MAFIAN GOD

AMCA said:


> whats the significance of the Number 27 in the history of Tejas??



Its IOC date dude.


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## AMCA

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Its IOC date dude.



Oh yeah, I almost forgot.... But hey Lets wait for it.... It might also be based on the Squadron number it would first get inducted into...


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## rockstarIN

Dec. 27 - IOC for LCA

Dec 27 - Navel LCA will fly for the first time.

Dec. 27 - Russia sending more satellites to orbit for Glonass programme.

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## sudhir007

MAFIAN GOD said:


> ^^^BY this logic Tejas will be HF-27.


 No it is HF-74 will be the right name for tajes
coze Marut HF-24 is Ist then it will take 5 more decade so add 50 it mean 24+50=74
*HF-74*


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## sancho

*Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas 'bombs' Chitradurga test range*

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## SpArK

Nice pictures.. thanks sancho.


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## satishkumarcsc

Bullseye....


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## grace

muahahaha...

video would have been awesome .....


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas 'bombs' Chitradurga test range

Tejas today dropped the first bomb at Challakere DRDO Test Range in Chitradurga. A Tejas PV-2 piloted by Gp Capt (Retd) R.R. Tyagi dropped practice bombs on the target. ADA had fixed air-to-ground target and Range Safety Officer (RSO) bunkers at the range site for the stores release. A mobile telemetry from NFTC was also positioned at the test range.


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## kingdurgaking

sudhir007 said:


> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas 'bombs' Chitradurga test range
> 
> Tejas today dropped the first bomb at Challakere DRDO Test Range in Chitradurga. A Tejas PV-2 piloted by Gp Capt (Retd) R.R. Tyagi dropped practice bombs on the target. ADA had fixed air-to-ground target and Range Safety Officer (RSO) bunkers at the range site for the stores release. A mobile telemetry from NFTC was also positioned at the test range.



Does PV-2 has been updated with radars?? or this is just a dumb bombs??


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## gowthamraj

^ that's dump bombs. 


Between heavy news


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## Kinetic

What a perfect hit! Cool! Its looks like Tejas is fully ready for IOC.


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## gowthamraj

^ right buddy 


Bang on target with pin point accuracy


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## alam.saquiba

> Does PV-2 has been updated with radars?? or this is just a dumb bombs??



How a dumb bomb can hit Bulls eye???? And what make you to think that Bomb and missiles are guided only by Radar???? It can be LGB or IRGB..

Does any one know which kind of guidance needed for this testing????


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## satishkumarcsc

alam.saquiba said:


> How a dumb bomb can hit Bulls eye???? And what make you to think that Bomb and missiles are guided only by Radar???? It can be LGB or IRGB..
> 
> Does any one know which kind of guidance needed for this testing????



Impact of the blast says it all. These are training bombs and are usually 3 KG and 25 pound bombs. That is why the small impact.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Does Tejas have the capability to fire BVRAAM's?If not,when will it be integrated?


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## Kinetic

alam.saquiba said:


> How a dumb bomb can hit Bulls eye???? And what make you to think that Bomb and missiles are guided only by Radar???? It can be LGB or IRGB..
> 
> Does any one know which kind of guidance needed for this testing????



You are rite. The accuracy shows that it was a guided one. But we have to wait to see which type of bombs/guidance were used.


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## alam.saquiba

> Does Tejas have the capability to fire BVRAAM's?If not,when will it be integrated?




SRAAM (heat Seeking) is already tested, BVRAAM has not yet tested. I was looking at BVRAAM definition... 

Astra BVRAAM: 
100+ Km on head on encounter,
20+ km on tail chasing... 

So mind it be4 talking on range on BVRAAM


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## Lord Of Gondor

alam.saquiba said:


> SRAAM (heat Seeking) is already tested, BVRAAM has not yet tested. I was looking at BVRAAM definition...
> 
> Astra BVRAAM:
> 100+ Km on head on encounter,
> 20+ km on tail chasing...
> 
> So mind it be4 talking on range on BVRAAM


Ok,I'll be more specific.Can Tejas fire the Vympel R-77(AA-12 Adder)?


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## alam.saquiba

> Ok,I'll be more specific.Can Tejas fire the Vympel R-77(AA-12 Adder)?



Till date It has not been tested or There is no information of its test .. But Its in plan to integrate it on LCA....


Wiki says "EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode fire control radar intended for multi-mission fighter aircraft. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. In the air-to-air mode the radar delivers long-range target detection and tracking capability. In the air-to-surface mode, the radar generates high resolution ground imagery using Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance. Air-to-Sea mode provides long-range detection and tracking as well as target identification capability.: 

and 

EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km,

Looking at Radar specs I can assume that R77 will be definitely tested soon on LCA...

Can any one add something more on this issue...???


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## sancho

alam.saquiba said:


> Till date It has not been tested or There is no information of its test .. But Its in plan to integrate it on LCA....
> 
> 
> Wiki says "EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode fire control radar intended for multi-mission fighter aircraft. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. In the air-to-air mode the radar delivers long-range target detection and tracking capability. In the air-to-surface mode, the radar generates high resolution ground imagery using Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance. Air-to-Sea mode provides long-range detection and tracking as well as target identification capability.:
> 
> and
> 
> EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km,
> 
> Looking at Radar specs I can assume that R77 will be definitely tested soon on LCA...
> 
> Can any one add something more on this issue...???



BVR missiles were not integrated so far, it might depend on the delays of MMR too. It is still unclear if LCA has MMR, or Elta 2032 installed, however R77 is the logic choice till Astra will be ready and by the fact that IAF will replace R77 with Astra from Russian fighters in future too. Some sources talked about Python WVR and Derby BVR missiles for LCA too, but possibly for N-LCAs because IN use them on Sea Harriers too.


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## RPK

*Tejas: From a flying machine to fighter aircraft - India - DNA*


A quest which started in 2001 is about to end: Tejas, India&#8217;s indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), completed its final lap to transform into a full-fledged combat aircraft&#8212;in Bangalore on Wednesday.

After its first flight on January 4, 2001, Tejas had successfully completed 1,452 test flights, with the last one here, where it undertook air-to-ground weapon and drop tank jettison trials. Now, it is awaiting an Initial Operational Clearance (IOC)&#8212;which is likely to be given on December 27.

It all took just 20 minutes: A Tejas PV-2 aircraft took off from the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency and the National Flight Test Centre, where the LCA programme was born and brought up, hit the bulls-eye at the aeronautical test range facility in Kudapura Kaval near Chitradurga and returned to the Bangalore base.

Gp Capt (retd) RR Tyagi piloted the final test sortie and its was a huge success, said a DRDO official. Tejas can fly only for 45 minutes.

The Chitradurga facility will also serve as a test range for the unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) and the unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs) when it becomes fully operational in 2011.


----------



## luckyyy

> Gp Capt (retd) RR Tyagi piloted the final test sortie and its was a huge success, said a DRDO official. .



Has the tests over ?


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## alam.saquiba

> Sancho :::BVR missiles were not integrated so far, it might depend on the delays of MMR too. I*t is still unclear if LCA has MMR, or Elta 2032 installed*, however R77 is the logic choice till Astra will be ready and by the fact that IAF will replace R77 with Astra from Russian fighters in future too. Some sources talked about Python WVR and Derby BVR missiles for LCA too, but possibly for N-LCAs because IN use them on Sea Harriers too.





I think LSP 4 or 5 was Integrated with ELTA 2032, Earlier it was reported that it was AESA, but later confirmed it was ELTA 2032 MMR (Advance version than Sea harrier is using). 

So I am confirm with This report, Looking at this I think that LCA will very soon tested with BVR may be R77 or Derby... I think Derby will be tested first (We have source code of 2032 and Derby)....

From Wiki::: While originally planned to be fitted on production aircraft, delays in the development of MMR prompted the DRDO to co-operate with Israel Aerospace Industries to integrate a Hybrid version of the EL/M-2032 radar for use with Tejas.[42][43] The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km.


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## jha

*Tejas: From a flying machine to fighter aircraft​*
A quest which started in 2001 is about to end: Tejas, Indias indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), completed its final lap to transform into a full-fledged combat aircraftin Bangalore on Wednesday.

*After its first flight on January 4, 2001, Tejas had successfully completed 1,452 test flights, with the last one here, where it undertook air-to-ground weapon and drop tank jettison trials. Now, it is awaiting an Initial Operational Clearance (IOC)which is likely to be given on December 27.*

It all took just 20 minutes: A Tejas PV-2 aircraft took off from the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency and the National Flight Test Centre, where the LCA programme was born and brought up, hit the bulls-eye at the aeronautical test range facility in Kudapura Kaval near Chitradurga and returned to the Bangalore base.

Gp Capt (retd) RR Tyagi piloted the final test sortie and its was a huge success, said a DRDO official. Tejas can fly only for 45 minutes.

The Chitradurga facility will also serve as a test range for the unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) and the unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs) when it becomes fully operational in 2011.

Tejas: From a flying machine to fighter aircraft - India - DNA


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## SpArK

*Air-to-Ground Range activated for Tejas flight trials: DRDO​*
BANGALORE (PTI): The Challakere DRDO Test Range in Karnataka became operational Wednesday with the first ever bomb testing experiments of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, though the total infrastructure and other logistic facilities are yet to be completed.

The financial support in full form is also awaited for the Range.

Dr Prahlada, the Chief Controller, DRDO, said, "The successful test also signifies a major milestone in the field of aeronautical developments in the country which is a proud moment for the entire scientific community".

Other than LCA tests, this facility would also be used for various tests of UAV flights and electronic warfare systems.

P S Subramanyam, Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, said Tejas PV-2 aircraft piloted by Gp Capt (Retd) R R Tyagi dropped practice bombs on the target.

Thus NFTC, ADA became the first to use the facility for weapon testing on Tejas. For this purpose, air-to-ground target and Range Safety Officer (RSO) bunkers were constructed at the range site. NFTC mobile telemetry with Test Director and critical system monitoring personnel were also positioned at the test range.

The mobile telemetry was linked to the base station Bangalore, through BSNL fiber optic link to monitor the test aircraft data and video in real-time.

"Availability of the range at a reasonable distance from Bangalore is expected to have a beneficial effect on clearance to air-to-ground weapon, integrated with various sensors onboard Tejas," DRDO said in a statement.

It was noted that consequent to operationalisation of Bangalore International Airport (BIA), Air-to-ground range at Kolar was deactivated, as it was coming in the traffic path of the BIA.

Accordingly, the Karnataka state government had allocated suitable land at Chellakere near Chitradurga to set-up a full-fledged Aeronautical Test Range (ATR), for use by all the aeronautical system developers in the country.

While work is going on to set-up the facility under the guidance of Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), ADA, took the initiative to activate the air-to-ground range for the ongoing air-to-ground weapon and drop tank jettison trials of Tejas, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft.

Air-to-Ground Range activated for Tejas flight trials: DRDO - Brahmand.com


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## rockstarIN

So all the tests been done....

Waiting for IOC, right.....!!!


----------



## AMCA

rockstar said:


> So all the tests been done....
> 
> Waiting for IOC, right.....!!!



IOC testings are complete I guess.... But FOC Testings are pending


----------



## rockstarIN

alam.saquiba said:


> I think LSP 4 or 5 was Integrated with ELTA 2032, Earlier it was reported that it was AESA, but later confirmed it was ELTA 2032 MMR (Advance version than Sea harrier is using).
> 
> So I am confirm with This report, Looking at this I think that LCA will very soon tested with BVR may be R77 or Derby... I think Derby will be tested first (We have source code of 2032 and Derby)....
> 
> From Wiki::: While originally planned to be fitted on production aircraft, delays in the development of MMR prompted the DRDO to co-operate with Israel Aerospace Industries to integrate a Hybrid version of the EL/M-2032 radar for use with Tejas.[42][43] The EL/M-2032 radar used in LSP-3 has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km in air-to-air mode, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km.



So we have currently 3 jets using EL/M-2032

1. Mig-21 Bison - EL/M-2032 with R-77 as BVR
2. Sea Harrier - EL/M-2032 with Derby as BVR
3. LCA - EL/M-2032 with either Derby or R-77

Deadly....


----------



## rockstarIN

AMCA said:


> IOC testings are complete I guess.... But FOC Testings are pending



Thats what i meant, integration of BVR and its testing might be for FOC


----------



## sudhir007

rockstar said:


> 1. Mig-21 Bison - EL/M-2032 with R-77 as BVR


Sorry but bison does not have el/m-2032 it has Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) airborne radar, which is capable of simultaneously tracking 8 targets and engaging 2 of them with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles,

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

did they come up with refueling probe ?????


----------



## rockstarIN

sudhir007 said:


> Sorry but bison does not have el/m-2032 it has Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) airborne radar, which is capable of simultaneously tracking 8 targets and engaging 2 of them with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles,




Yes my bad


----------



## prakash

can fly only 45 mins ?
with drop tanks how much can we extend?
can tejas have conformal fuel tanks?


----------



## prakash

the laser was used for ranging and scored a bullseye with a 25 kg practice bomb. Now translate that into real world 1000lb HSLD bomb with HMX(4x powerful than TNT) and same accuracy. This gives super hard target kill capablity to the LCA. . Awesome!


----------



## Manticore

an old article but intersting read

*The LCA puzzle*
The LCA puzzle
RAVI SHARMA
in Bangalore


Doubts have been raised about the LCA project's future after indications came from the IAF that it may consider halving the number of aircraft of the type it will place an order for now.

T.L. PRABHAKAR

Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft, on its maiden supersonic flight in Bangalore on August 1, 2003.

IS the Indian Air Force having second thoughts on Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)? Tejas is meant to be a fly-by-wire multi-role supersonic advanced fighter that will replace the IAF's ageing MiG-21 fleet, but doubts have cropped up following indications that the IAF may be seriously considering halving the number of aircraft it plans to buy since its announcement during the Aero India 2005 air show in February that it would "soon" place an order for 40 aircraft.

Nearly a decade after it was rolled out and since its maiden flight in January 2001, the LCA has proved that it is a good design platform and that it can fly. The air combat and offensive air support fighter aircraft, which is meant to be a weapons platform and is the product of a Rs.5,500-crore, 22-year programme, can do little else at the moment.

Two technical demonstrators (TD1 and TD2) and the lone prototype (PV1), which are currently flying, have logged around 412 sorties, including around 200 towards the successful completion of the LCA's technical demonstration phase. The flight envelope of the technical demonstration phase includes flying the aircraft at a speed of 1.6 mach (1.4 mach done so far), taking it to an altitude of 15 kilometres (accomplished), and making it capable of sustaining an angle of attack of 25 degrees (20 degrees achieved) and a manoeuvrability (resistance to gravity) of 9 G (4G crossed). The flight envelope will also include sorties to gather data on the aircraft's performance in sideslip.

The ADA has planned seven aircraft in all - five prototypes (PV1 to 5) and two technical demonstrators. PV5 was originally meant to be a two-seat trainer, but this has now been advanced to PV4. According to scientists with the ADA, PV2 is undergoing avionics integration tests and engine ground runs and taxiing trials are expected to take place soon before it can be cleared for flight. The ADA is also hoping to draw two or three aircraft from the limited series production (LSP) line if there is pressure on it from the IAF to hasten weapon integration and trial runs. Drawing aircraft from the LSP will help hasten the entire flight test programme and the flight envelope, as the ADA will be able to deploy more aircraft with specific tasks assigned to them.

While the technology demonstration phase has progressed, albeit with delays, the next stage, the path to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), whose key components are weapons and stores, is causing concern. Only after the IOC can the `weaponised' aircraft be handed over to the IAF for squadron duty. Following the IOC is the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which will signify that the aircraft is combat-ready. Prior to the IOC, the aircraft will have to undertake around 1,200 sorties, the vast majority of which have to be test flights where requirements, objectives and parameters are clearly defined.
*
But according to reliable sources associated with the LCA programme, of the 200-odd sorties that have been completed with the IOC in mind, hardly 10 per cent were `real' experimental test flights. The rest were meant for data generation for parameters such as vibration and radio transmission or were display-flying either before dignitaries (such as the Russian and Venezuelan Presidents, the Malaysian Prime Minister and the Chilean Defence Minister) or in air shows/displays. A retired Air Marshal said: "You can't progress towards your IOC by just taking off and landing the aircraft, the tests have to be done with specific manoeuvres in mind."
*
That, however, seems some distance away. For a start, the pylons, which are structures fixed to the hard points on the fuselage or wings, are yet to be made. Without them weapons, pods and other stores cannot be attached to the aircraft. Neither have the drop tanks been fitted. As a result, the aircraft's fly-by-wire capabilities with drop tanks and weapons, which will involve a shift in its centre of gravity, are yet to be checked.
*
Confessed a test pilot: "The LCA has flown almost all its 400 sorties without a change of configuration. *This is a dubious record for any aircraft in its test phase. The ADA talks of the speed of the aircraft, but in today's combat, as opposed to close or visual combat that was prevalent in days gone by, what is of greater importance is the power of the BVR [beyond visual range] weapons. Weapon systems that detect and identify a target at 100-plus kilometres away are what will give the aircraft the upper hand."

The LCA's Pulse Doppler Multi-Mode Radar (MMR), which will detect, track, terrain-map and deliver guided BVR weapons, has run into major hitches and, consequently, time and cost overruns. To be developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is a sub-contractor to the LCA programme, the MMR is designed to keep track of a maximum of 10 targets and allows simultaneous multiple-target engagement. Although the MMR has been tested on an Avro HS748M, it is yet to be installed on the LCA prototypes. With the MMR nowhere on the horizon, the ADA has had to make do with a weapon delivery pod that is not a primary sensor and hence cannot be used to undertake critical weaponisation of the aircraft. Said a pilot familiar with flight test programmes: "Anything less than a phased-array electronic scanning radar will be obsolete."

According to a scientist at the ADA, the use of a compatible and tested radar that is available of the shelf - such as the Elta from the Israeli Aircraft Industries or the AN/APG-67 from Lockheed Martin (which the ADA evaluated in 1992 and is currently used on the F-16) - can be considered, even as HAL continues to develop its own MMR. This would be similar to what is being done in the case of the LCA's power plant - the GE-404 F2J3 engine of the American company General Electric is being used until the made-in-India Kaveri engine is ready. The contract that the ADA has signed with GE stipulates that should India decide to procure more GE-404 engines the manufacturer will supply them. However, the contract does not insulate India from any political decisions of the United States government and, equally important, the IAF would not like to fly the LCA forever with an American engine.

THE Kaveri engine, which has been under development since 1986 at the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), is generally seen as the Achilles heel of the LCA programme. Last December the Cabinet Committee on Security revised the estimate for its future development to Rs.2,800 crores. However, the engine, on which the GTRE has already spent Rs.1,300 crores, is still years away from completing the 8,000 or so hours of testing that is necessary for its development phase.

The GTRE has, over the years, been in touch with almost all the global players in aircraft engine development. But collaborations have been restricted to a review of the Kaveri engine and suggestions. According to informed sources, the GTRE is looking to take the collaborations to a higher plane by entering into a tie-up, which will include a risk-sharing, joint development/production relationship on a modified Kaveri engine or any other engine that can be developed afresh to power the LCA.

According to a report tabled in Parliament in April by the Standing Committee on Defence, the Kaveri engine will be installed on the LCA only by 2012 and that, too, at a revised cost of Rs.2,839 crores, almost eight times the projected development cost of Rs.382 crores in 1989.

Many aviation pundits also question the wisdom of launching an ambitious fighter aircraft programme with an untested new engine. They term it "double jeopardy". M.B. Verma, programme director of the LCA programme, admits that the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine has forced the ADA to change its plans. "We had initially planned to fly the third aircraft (PV1) with the Kaveri and had designed the rear fuselage to take on the Kaveri. But after reassessing the [non] availability of Kaveri we had to go back to our old fuselage [TD1 and TD2] design. So, today PV1 is not cleared for the entire flight envelope for which TD1 and TD2 are cleared. But the delay won't affect the programme," said Verma. Having realised that Kaveri will not fructify in the near future, the ADA is designing the second prototype on the basis of the design of the proven technical demonstrator.

Added Verma: "By the end of 2005 we should start carrier trials. Weapon integration will be after that. Since our avionics [suites] are designed with open architecture and stores management, which is also electronically controlled, we will take less time in the weaponisation of this aircraft than has happened in any other programme anywhere in the world."

ONE of the major attributes of the LCA, besides the use of advanced composites, is its low weight - 13 tonnes - and ability to carry as much as 45 per cent of its weight in weapons. But with many key components such as the engine, radar (when it does come) and so on becoming heavier, the aircraft's weapon-carrying capacity has been degraded slowly.
*
The LCA has also suffered from poor estate management, with designers and engineers fitting equipment "wherever there was place on board".* This has meant that while it takes four hours to change an engine on a Mirage 2000, it takes three days to do the same on the Tejas. Poor estate management has also meant that components are not placed where they should ideally be. For instance, though the power amplification unit should ideally be as close to the MMR, in the LCA it is placed some distance away, requiring the use of long wires, which means guide wave losses.

The plethora of paperwork and information on the LCA has also not been documented adequately. Explains an engineer with the programme: "All these years when any of the IAF's fighter aircraft had a problem we would say, `ask the Russians or the French or the British', depending on the original designer of the aircraft. Now that we are developing the LCA, if we don't have proper documentation whom will we ask?"

Many aviation pundits believe that the LCA programme is at a crossroads and only far-sighted decisions in the technical and management spheres will help it achieve its goal: to provide the IAF with around 200 aircraft that can replace the MiG-21 fleet. But the delays that forced the IAF in 1991 to upgrade 125 MiG-21 aircraft in a deal that was worth over $600 million are once again forcing it to shop overseas for 126 multi-role combat aircraft.

Publicly, the IAF has maintained that it would like to have at least one LCA squadron (20 aircraft) by 2010. But there is a feeling that it is not whole-heartedly behind the LCA. The IAF is yet to place a firm order and release the money. Also, the IAF, which is not part of the LCA project management team, has not thought it fit to post even one of its teams at the ADA, "which can monitor and manage, and take the right decisions at the right time". This is something it has done in other aircraft programmes such as the Su-30, the MiG-21 Upgrade and even the most-recent Hawk advanced jet trainer.

Informed sources said that even HAL is not overtly keen on the LCA. It is, without doubt, focussing more on its own Intermediate Jet Trainer programme. The logic is simple: the LCA will never be its project and the ADA, which is basically a research laboratory, continues to wield total financial control over the programme. Reliable sources in HAL said the assembly/production lines for the eventual manufacture of the planned eight LSP aircraft, the first of which should roll out by early 2007, are yet to be set up.

According to the ADA, this is unpardonable since "the ADA has been continuously and simultaneously providing the aircraft's designs via the product line management system to HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Centre where the ADA has invested Rs.40 crores," and also because HAL has been provided the money to set up the Tejas LSP line: "At any time Rs.20 crores of ADA money is parked with HAL," said an informed source.

But even after HAL goes ahead with the production phase it is unlikely to manufacture more than 10 aircraft a year. That is, 20 years for 200 aircraft. The question is will the LCA - even with its open architecture - still be relevant in 2027, 32 years after it was first rolled out?

There have been suggestions that the ADA hand over the reins of the programme and the LSP to a specialised production agency such as HAL once the technical demonstration phase is over. But this raises two questions: Is HAL interested? More crucially, will the ADA be prepared to step aside and forsake the only project for which it was created? The ADA has made it amply clear that it would only like to hand over the project after the FOC is obtained.

Said an informed source at the ADA: "We will continue to have responsibility for the programme. We are the designers. The airworthiness responsibility will be with us, use of new versions of software will be decided by us, any changes in the avionics have to be approved by us, the integration of future sensors will be with us and we are the signatories for all safety features on the aircraft." It is now for the government to decide whether a professional production agency or a defence research laboratory should head the Rs.5,500 crore programme.

Admittedly, U.S. sanctions following India's nuclear explosions in May 1998 affected the availability of key components such as hydraulic actuators (that help in manoeuvring the aircraft, gaining altitude, and determining the trajectory) and ring-laser gyros (to make inertial navigation systems). This did delay the programme, but there have been other causes as well. These include perhaps a lethargy to adapt to the changing global situation, where every major aircraft designer/manufacturer has entered into tie-ups and joint ventures, and to rope in the private aircraft industry to aid the programme as major global players do.

Many experts are of the view that if the LCA has to serve its purpose - provide the IAF with at least 200 aircraft - the government and the ADA should expedite the project.


----------



## rockstarIN

ANTIBODY said:


> an old article but intersting read
> 
> *The LCA puzzle*
> The LCA puzzle
> RAVI SHARMA
> in Bangalore
> 
> 
> Doubts have been raised about the LCA project's future after indications came from the IAF that it may consider halving the number of aircraft of the type it will place an order for now.
> 
> T.L. PRABHAKAR
> 
> Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft, on its maiden supersonic flight in Bangalore on August 1, 2003.
> 
> IS the Indian Air Force having second thoughts on Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)? Tejas is meant to be a fly-by-wire multi-role supersonic advanced fighter that will replace the IAF's ageing MiG-21 fleet, but doubts have cropped up following indications that the IAF may be seriously considering halving the number of aircraft it plans to buy since its announcement during the Aero India 2005 air show in February that it would "soon" place an order for 40 aircraft.
> 
> Nearly a decade after it was rolled out and since its maiden flight in January 2001, the LCA has proved that it is a good design platform and that it can fly. The air combat and offensive air support fighter aircraft, which is meant to be a weapons platform and is the product of a Rs.5,500-crore, 22-year programme, can do little else at the moment.
> 
> Two technical demonstrators (TD1 and TD2) and the lone prototype (PV1), which are currently flying, have logged around 412 sorties, including around 200 towards the successful completion of the LCA's technical demonstration phase. The flight envelope of the technical demonstration phase includes flying the aircraft at a speed of 1.6 mach (1.4 mach done so far), taking it to an altitude of 15 kilometres (accomplished), and making it capable of sustaining an angle of attack of 25 degrees (20 degrees achieved) and a manoeuvrability (resistance to gravity) of 9 G (4G crossed). The flight envelope will also include sorties to gather data on the aircraft's performance in sideslip.
> 
> The ADA has planned seven aircraft in all - five prototypes (PV1 to 5) and two technical demonstrators. PV5 was originally meant to be a two-seat trainer, but this has now been advanced to PV4. According to scientists with the ADA, PV2 is undergoing avionics integration tests and engine ground runs and taxiing trials are expected to take place soon before it can be cleared for flight. The ADA is also hoping to draw two or three aircraft from the limited series production (LSP) line if there is pressure on it from the IAF to hasten weapon integration and trial runs. Drawing aircraft from the LSP will help hasten the entire flight test programme and the flight envelope, as the ADA will be able to deploy more aircraft with specific tasks assigned to them.
> 
> While the technology demonstration phase has progressed, albeit with delays, the next stage, the path to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), whose key components are weapons and stores, is causing concern. Only after the IOC can the `weaponised' aircraft be handed over to the IAF for squadron duty. Following the IOC is the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which will signify that the aircraft is combat-ready. Prior to the IOC, the aircraft will have to undertake around 1,200 sorties, the vast majority of which have to be test flights where requirements, objectives and parameters are clearly defined.
> *
> But according to reliable sources associated with the LCA programme, of the 200-odd sorties that have been completed with the IOC in mind, hardly 10 per cent were `real' experimental test flights. The rest were meant for data generation for parameters such as vibration and radio transmission or were display-flying either before dignitaries (such as the Russian and Venezuelan Presidents, the Malaysian Prime Minister and the Chilean Defence Minister) or in air shows/displays. A retired Air Marshal said: "You can't progress towards your IOC by just taking off and landing the aircraft, the tests have to be done with specific manoeuvres in mind."
> *
> That, however, seems some distance away. For a start, the pylons, which are structures fixed to the hard points on the fuselage or wings, are yet to be made. Without them weapons, pods and other stores cannot be attached to the aircraft. Neither have the drop tanks been fitted. As a result, the aircraft's fly-by-wire capabilities with drop tanks and weapons, which will involve a shift in its centre of gravity, are yet to be checked.
> *
> Confessed a test pilot: "The LCA has flown almost all its 400 sorties without a change of configuration. *This is a dubious record for any aircraft in its test phase. The ADA talks of the speed of the aircraft, but in today's combat, as opposed to close or visual combat that was prevalent in days gone by, what is of greater importance is the power of the BVR [beyond visual range] weapons. Weapon systems that detect and identify a target at 100-plus kilometres away are what will give the aircraft the upper hand."
> 
> The LCA's Pulse Doppler Multi-Mode Radar (MMR), which will detect, track, terrain-map and deliver guided BVR weapons, has run into major hitches and, consequently, time and cost overruns. To be developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is a sub-contractor to the LCA programme, the MMR is designed to keep track of a maximum of 10 targets and allows simultaneous multiple-target engagement. Although the MMR has been tested on an Avro HS748M, it is yet to be installed on the LCA prototypes. With the MMR nowhere on the horizon, the ADA has had to make do with a weapon delivery pod that is not a primary sensor and hence cannot be used to undertake critical weaponisation of the aircraft. Said a pilot familiar with flight test programmes: "Anything less than a phased-array electronic scanning radar will be obsolete."
> 
> According to a scientist at the ADA, the use of a compatible and tested radar that is available of the shelf - such as the Elta from the Israeli Aircraft Industries or the AN/APG-67 from Lockheed Martin (which the ADA evaluated in 1992 and is currently used on the F-16) - can be considered, even as HAL continues to develop its own MMR. This would be similar to what is being done in the case of the LCA's power plant - the GE-404 F2J3 engine of the American company General Electric is being used until the made-in-India Kaveri engine is ready. The contract that the ADA has signed with GE stipulates that should India decide to procure more GE-404 engines the manufacturer will supply them. However, the contract does not insulate India from any political decisions of the United States government and, equally important, the IAF would not like to fly the LCA forever with an American engine.
> 
> THE Kaveri engine, which has been under development since 1986 at the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), is generally seen as the Achilles heel of the LCA programme. Last December the Cabinet Committee on Security revised the estimate for its future development to Rs.2,800 crores. However, the engine, on which the GTRE has already spent Rs.1,300 crores, is still years away from completing the 8,000 or so hours of testing that is necessary for its development phase.
> 
> The GTRE has, over the years, been in touch with almost all the global players in aircraft engine development. But collaborations have been restricted to a review of the Kaveri engine and suggestions. According to informed sources, the GTRE is looking to take the collaborations to a higher plane by entering into a tie-up, which will include a risk-sharing, joint development/production relationship on a modified Kaveri engine or any other engine that can be developed afresh to power the LCA.
> 
> According to a report tabled in Parliament in April by the Standing Committee on Defence, the Kaveri engine will be installed on the LCA only by 2012 and that, too, at a revised cost of Rs.2,839 crores, almost eight times the projected development cost of Rs.382 crores in 1989.
> 
> Many aviation pundits also question the wisdom of launching an ambitious fighter aircraft programme with an untested new engine. They term it "double jeopardy". M.B. Verma, programme director of the LCA programme, admits that the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine has forced the ADA to change its plans. "We had initially planned to fly the third aircraft (PV1) with the Kaveri and had designed the rear fuselage to take on the Kaveri. But after reassessing the [non] availability of Kaveri we had to go back to our old fuselage [TD1 and TD2] design. So, today PV1 is not cleared for the entire flight envelope for which TD1 and TD2 are cleared. But the delay won't affect the programme," said Verma. Having realised that Kaveri will not fructify in the near future, the ADA is designing the second prototype on the basis of the design of the proven technical demonstrator.
> 
> Added Verma: "By the end of 2005 we should start carrier trials. Weapon integration will be after that. Since our avionics [suites] are designed with open architecture and stores management, which is also electronically controlled, we will take less time in the weaponisation of this aircraft than has happened in any other programme anywhere in the world."
> 
> ONE of the major attributes of the LCA, besides the use of advanced composites, is its low weight - 13 tonnes - and ability to carry as much as 45 per cent of its weight in weapons. But with many key components such as the engine, radar (when it does come) and so on becoming heavier, the aircraft's weapon-carrying capacity has been degraded slowly.
> *
> The LCA has also suffered from poor estate management, with designers and engineers fitting equipment "wherever there was place on board".* This has meant that while it takes four hours to change an engine on a Mirage 2000, it takes three days to do the same on the Tejas. Poor estate management has also meant that components are not placed where they should ideally be. For instance, though the power amplification unit should ideally be as close to the MMR, in the LCA it is placed some distance away, requiring the use of long wires, which means guide wave losses.
> 
> The plethora of paperwork and information on the LCA has also not been documented adequately. Explains an engineer with the programme: "All these years when any of the IAF's fighter aircraft had a problem we would say, `ask the Russians or the French or the British', depending on the original designer of the aircraft. Now that we are developing the LCA, if we don't have proper documentation whom will we ask?"
> 
> Many aviation pundits believe that the LCA programme is at a crossroads and only far-sighted decisions in the technical and management spheres will help it achieve its goal: to provide the IAF with around 200 aircraft that can replace the MiG-21 fleet. But the delays that forced the IAF in 1991 to upgrade 125 MiG-21 aircraft in a deal that was worth over $600 million are once again forcing it to shop overseas for 126 multi-role combat aircraft.
> 
> Publicly, the IAF has maintained that it would like to have at least one LCA squadron (20 aircraft) by 2010. But there is a feeling that it is not whole-heartedly behind the LCA. The IAF is yet to place a firm order and release the money. Also, the IAF, which is not part of the LCA project management team, has not thought it fit to post even one of its teams at the ADA, "which can monitor and manage, and take the right decisions at the right time". This is something it has done in other aircraft programmes such as the Su-30, the MiG-21 Upgrade and even the most-recent Hawk advanced jet trainer.
> 
> Informed sources said that even HAL is not overtly keen on the LCA. It is, without doubt, focussing more on its own Intermediate Jet Trainer programme. The logic is simple: the LCA will never be its project and the ADA, which is basically a research laboratory, continues to wield total financial control over the programme. Reliable sources in HAL said the assembly/production lines for the eventual manufacture of the planned eight LSP aircraft, the first of which should roll out by early 2007, are yet to be set up.
> 
> According to the ADA, this is unpardonable since "the ADA has been continuously and simultaneously providing the aircraft's designs via the product line management system to HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Centre where the ADA has invested Rs.40 crores," and also because HAL has been provided the money to set up the Tejas LSP line: "At any time Rs.20 crores of ADA money is parked with HAL," said an informed source.
> 
> But even after HAL goes ahead with the production phase it is unlikely to manufacture more than 10 aircraft a year. That is, 20 years for 200 aircraft. The question is will the LCA - even with its open architecture - still be relevant in 2027, 32 years after it was first rolled out?
> 
> There have been suggestions that the ADA hand over the reins of the programme and the LSP to a specialised production agency such as HAL once the technical demonstration phase is over. But this raises two questions: Is HAL interested? More crucially, will the ADA be prepared to step aside and forsake the only project for which it was created? The ADA has made it amply clear that it would only like to hand over the project after the FOC is obtained.
> 
> Said an informed source at the ADA: "We will continue to have responsibility for the programme. We are the designers. The airworthiness responsibility will be with us, use of new versions of software will be decided by us, any changes in the avionics have to be approved by us, the integration of future sensors will be with us and we are the signatories for all safety features on the aircraft." It is now for the government to decide whether a professional production agency or a defence research laboratory should head the Rs.5,500 crore programme.
> 
> Admittedly, U.S. sanctions following India's nuclear explosions in May 1998 affected the availability of key components such as hydraulic actuators (that help in manoeuvring the aircraft, gaining altitude, and determining the trajectory) and ring-laser gyros (to make inertial navigation systems). This did delay the programme, but there have been other causes as well. These include perhaps a lethargy to adapt to the changing global situation, where every major aircraft designer/manufacturer has entered into tie-ups and joint ventures, and to rope in the private aircraft industry to aid the programme as major global players do.
> 
> Many experts are of the view that if the LCA has to serve its purpose - provide the IAF with at least 200 aircraft - the government and the ADA should expedite the project.



A very old article indeed


----------



## Dark Angel

ANTIBODY said:


> an old article but intersting read
> 
> *The LCA puzzle*
> The LCA puzzle
> RAVI SHARMA
> in Bangalore
> 
> 
> Doubts have been raised about the LCA project's future after indications came from the IAF that it may consider halving the number of aircraft of the type it will place an order for now.
> 
> T.L. PRABHAKAR
> 
> Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft, on its maiden supersonic flight in Bangalore on August 1, 2003.
> 
> IS the Indian Air Force having second thoughts on Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)? Tejas is meant to be a fly-by-wire multi-role supersonic advanced fighter that will replace the IAF's ageing MiG-21 fleet, but doubts have cropped up following indications that the IAF may be seriously considering halving the number of aircraft it plans to buy since its announcement during the Aero India 2005 air show in February that it would "soon" place an order for 40 aircraft.
> 
> Nearly a decade after it was rolled out and since its maiden flight in January 2001, the LCA has proved that it is a good design platform and that it can fly. The air combat and offensive air support fighter aircraft, which is meant to be a weapons platform and is the product of a Rs.5,500-crore, 22-year programme, can do little else at the moment.
> 
> Two technical demonstrators (TD1 and TD2) and the lone prototype (PV1), which are currently flying, have logged around 412 sorties, including around 200 towards the successful completion of the LCA's technical demonstration phase. The flight envelope of the technical demonstration phase includes flying the aircraft at a speed of 1.6 mach (1.4 mach done so far), taking it to an altitude of 15 kilometres (accomplished), and making it capable of sustaining an angle of attack of 25 degrees (20 degrees achieved) and a manoeuvrability (resistance to gravity) of 9 G (4G crossed). The flight envelope will also include sorties to gather data on the aircraft's performance in sideslip.
> 
> The ADA has planned seven aircraft in all - five prototypes (PV1 to 5) and two technical demonstrators. PV5 was originally meant to be a two-seat trainer, but this has now been advanced to PV4. According to scientists with the ADA, PV2 is undergoing avionics integration tests and engine ground runs and taxiing trials are expected to take place soon before it can be cleared for flight. The ADA is also hoping to draw two or three aircraft from the limited series production (LSP) line if there is pressure on it from the IAF to hasten weapon integration and trial runs. Drawing aircraft from the LSP will help hasten the entire flight test programme and the flight envelope, as the ADA will be able to deploy more aircraft with specific tasks assigned to them.
> 
> While the technology demonstration phase has progressed, albeit with delays, the next stage, the path to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), whose key components are weapons and stores, is causing concern. Only after the IOC can the `weaponised' aircraft be handed over to the IAF for squadron duty. Following the IOC is the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which will signify that the aircraft is combat-ready. Prior to the IOC, the aircraft will have to undertake around 1,200 sorties, the vast majority of which have to be test flights where requirements, objectives and parameters are clearly defined.
> *
> But according to reliable sources associated with the LCA programme, of the 200-odd sorties that have been completed with the IOC in mind, hardly 10 per cent were `real' experimental test flights. The rest were meant for data generation for parameters such as vibration and radio transmission or were display-flying either before dignitaries (such as the Russian and Venezuelan Presidents, the Malaysian Prime Minister and the Chilean Defence Minister) or in air shows/displays. A retired Air Marshal said: "You can't progress towards your IOC by just taking off and landing the aircraft, the tests have to be done with specific manoeuvres in mind."
> *
> That, however, seems some distance away. For a start, the pylons, which are structures fixed to the hard points on the fuselage or wings, are yet to be made. Without them weapons, pods and other stores cannot be attached to the aircraft. Neither have the drop tanks been fitted. As a result, the aircraft's fly-by-wire capabilities with drop tanks and weapons, which will involve a shift in its centre of gravity, are yet to be checked.
> *
> Confessed a test pilot: "The LCA has flown almost all its 400 sorties without a change of configuration. *This is a dubious record for any aircraft in its test phase. The ADA talks of the speed of the aircraft, but in today's combat, as opposed to close or visual combat that was prevalent in days gone by, what is of greater importance is the power of the BVR [beyond visual range] weapons. Weapon systems that detect and identify a target at 100-plus kilometres away are what will give the aircraft the upper hand."
> 
> The LCA's Pulse Doppler Multi-Mode Radar (MMR), which will detect, track, terrain-map and deliver guided BVR weapons, has run into major hitches and, consequently, time and cost overruns. To be developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is a sub-contractor to the LCA programme, the MMR is designed to keep track of a maximum of 10 targets and allows simultaneous multiple-target engagement. Although the MMR has been tested on an Avro HS748M, it is yet to be installed on the LCA prototypes. With the MMR nowhere on the horizon, the ADA has had to make do with a weapon delivery pod that is not a primary sensor and hence cannot be used to undertake critical weaponisation of the aircraft. Said a pilot familiar with flight test programmes: "Anything less than a phased-array electronic scanning radar will be obsolete."
> 
> According to a scientist at the ADA, the use of a compatible and tested radar that is available of the shelf - such as the Elta from the Israeli Aircraft Industries or the AN/APG-67 from Lockheed Martin (which the ADA evaluated in 1992 and is currently used on the F-16) - can be considered, even as HAL continues to develop its own MMR. This would be similar to what is being done in the case of the LCA's power plant - the GE-404 F2J3 engine of the American company General Electric is being used until the made-in-India Kaveri engine is ready. The contract that the ADA has signed with GE stipulates that should India decide to procure more GE-404 engines the manufacturer will supply them. However, the contract does not insulate India from any political decisions of the United States government and, equally important, the IAF would not like to fly the LCA forever with an American engine.
> 
> THE Kaveri engine, which has been under development since 1986 at the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), is generally seen as the Achilles heel of the LCA programme. Last December the Cabinet Committee on Security revised the estimate for its future development to Rs.2,800 crores. However, the engine, on which the GTRE has already spent Rs.1,300 crores, is still years away from completing the 8,000 or so hours of testing that is necessary for its development phase.
> 
> The GTRE has, over the years, been in touch with almost all the global players in aircraft engine development. But collaborations have been restricted to a review of the Kaveri engine and suggestions. According to informed sources, the GTRE is looking to take the collaborations to a higher plane by entering into a tie-up, which will include a risk-sharing, joint development/production relationship on a modified Kaveri engine or any other engine that can be developed afresh to power the LCA.
> 
> According to a report tabled in Parliament in April by the Standing Committee on Defence, the Kaveri engine will be installed on the LCA only by 2012 and that, too, at a revised cost of Rs.2,839 crores, almost eight times the projected development cost of Rs.382 crores in 1989.
> 
> Many aviation pundits also question the wisdom of launching an ambitious fighter aircraft programme with an untested new engine. They term it "double jeopardy". M.B. Verma, programme director of the LCA programme, admits that the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine has forced the ADA to change its plans. "We had initially planned to fly the third aircraft (PV1) with the Kaveri and had designed the rear fuselage to take on the Kaveri. But after reassessing the [non] availability of Kaveri we had to go back to our old fuselage [TD1 and TD2] design. So, today PV1 is not cleared for the entire flight envelope for which TD1 and TD2 are cleared. But the delay won't affect the programme," said Verma. Having realised that Kaveri will not fructify in the near future, the ADA is designing the second prototype on the basis of the design of the proven technical demonstrator.
> 
> Added Verma: "By the end of 2005 we should start carrier trials. Weapon integration will be after that. Since our avionics [suites] are designed with open architecture and stores management, which is also electronically controlled, we will take less time in the weaponisation of this aircraft than has happened in any other programme anywhere in the world."
> 
> ONE of the major attributes of the LCA, besides the use of advanced composites, is its low weight - 13 tonnes - and ability to carry as much as 45 per cent of its weight in weapons. But with many key components such as the engine, radar (when it does come) and so on becoming heavier, the aircraft's weapon-carrying capacity has been degraded slowly.
> *
> The LCA has also suffered from poor estate management, with designers and engineers fitting equipment "wherever there was place on board".* This has meant that while it takes four hours to change an engine on a Mirage 2000, it takes three days to do the same on the Tejas. Poor estate management has also meant that components are not placed where they should ideally be. For instance, though the power amplification unit should ideally be as close to the MMR, in the LCA it is placed some distance away, requiring the use of long wires, which means guide wave losses.
> 
> The plethora of paperwork and information on the LCA has also not been documented adequately. Explains an engineer with the programme: "All these years when any of the IAF's fighter aircraft had a problem we would say, `ask the Russians or the French or the British', depending on the original designer of the aircraft. Now that we are developing the LCA, if we don't have proper documentation whom will we ask?"
> 
> Many aviation pundits believe that the LCA programme is at a crossroads and only far-sighted decisions in the technical and management spheres will help it achieve its goal: to provide the IAF with around 200 aircraft that can replace the MiG-21 fleet. But the delays that forced the IAF in 1991 to upgrade 125 MiG-21 aircraft in a deal that was worth over $600 million are once again forcing it to shop overseas for 126 multi-role combat aircraft.
> 
> Publicly, the IAF has maintained that it would like to have at least one LCA squadron (20 aircraft) by 2010. But there is a feeling that it is not whole-heartedly behind the LCA. The IAF is yet to place a firm order and release the money. Also, the IAF, which is not part of the LCA project management team, has not thought it fit to post even one of its teams at the ADA, "which can monitor and manage, and take the right decisions at the right time". This is something it has done in other aircraft programmes such as the Su-30, the MiG-21 Upgrade and even the most-recent Hawk advanced jet trainer.
> 
> Informed sources said that even HAL is not overtly keen on the LCA. It is, without doubt, focussing more on its own Intermediate Jet Trainer programme. The logic is simple: the LCA will never be its project and the ADA, which is basically a research laboratory, continues to wield total financial control over the programme. Reliable sources in HAL said the assembly/production lines for the eventual manufacture of the planned eight LSP aircraft, the first of which should roll out by early 2007, are yet to be set up.
> 
> According to the ADA, this is unpardonable since "the ADA has been continuously and simultaneously providing the aircraft's designs via the product line management system to HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Centre where the ADA has invested Rs.40 crores," and also because HAL has been provided the money to set up the Tejas LSP line: "At any time Rs.20 crores of ADA money is parked with HAL," said an informed source.
> 
> But even after HAL goes ahead with the production phase it is unlikely to manufacture more than 10 aircraft a year. That is, 20 years for 200 aircraft. The question is will the LCA - even with its open architecture - still be relevant in 2027, 32 years after it was first rolled out?
> 
> There have been suggestions that the ADA hand over the reins of the programme and the LSP to a specialised production agency such as HAL once the technical demonstration phase is over. But this raises two questions: Is HAL interested? More crucially, will the ADA be prepared to step aside and forsake the only project for which it was created? The ADA has made it amply clear that it would only like to hand over the project after the FOC is obtained.
> 
> Said an informed source at the ADA: "We will continue to have responsibility for the programme. We are the designers. The airworthiness responsibility will be with us, use of new versions of software will be decided by us, any changes in the avionics have to be approved by us, the integration of future sensors will be with us and we are the signatories for all safety features on the aircraft." It is now for the government to decide whether a professional production agency or a defence research laboratory should head the Rs.5,500 crore programme.
> 
> Admittedly, U.S. sanctions following India's nuclear explosions in May 1998 affected the availability of key components such as hydraulic actuators (that help in manoeuvring the aircraft, gaining altitude, and determining the trajectory) and ring-laser gyros (to make inertial navigation systems). This did delay the programme, but there have been other causes as well. These include perhaps a lethargy to adapt to the changing global situation, where every major aircraft designer/manufacturer has entered into tie-ups and joint ventures, and to rope in the private aircraft industry to aid the programme as major global players do.
> 
> Many experts are of the view that if the LCA has to serve its purpose - provide the IAF with at least 200 aircraft - the government and the ADA should expedite the project.








29 Jul 2005 is when the article was written now go figure 

It has completed 1404 test flights not 400 hahahahah 


http://www.lca-tejas.org/


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## ajtr

prakash said:


> can fly only 45 mins ?
> with drop tanks how much can we extend?
> can tejas have conformal fuel tanks?


45 mins are enough for it to complete fly past across janpath during republic day parade.


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## satishkumarcsc

ajtr said:


> 45 mins are enough for it to complete fly past across janpath during republic day parade.



Now I am sure that you know nothing about aircrafts or air combat. So I request all members to refrain from posts of ajtr which is blatantly a troll.

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## brahmastra

ajtr said:


> 45 mins are enough for it to complete fly past across janpath during republic day parade.



yes, just like only one post from troll is enough to derail the thread and flame.

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## khatarnak gunda

well, it seems that some people here don't know anything or else they intentionally do not want to.

TEJAS is a multi role fighter. but its existance mean to replace mig21 which is an interceptor. Tejas' main function is to intercept enemy fighter. and yes 45 MINS ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH for this purpose.


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## ajtr

^^sure its multi-role when it fly from wagha to lahore or when it is sent to oneway suicide mission to karach.


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## SpArK

ajtr said:


> ^^sure its multi-role when it fly from wagha to lahore or when it is sent to oneway suicide mission to karach.



wow.. words of a true defence expert.

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## alam.saquiba

> Originally Posted by rockstar View Post
> So all the tests been done....
> 
> Waiting for IOC, right.....!!!
> IOC testings are complete I guess.... But FOC Testings are pending



Both of you are right. IOC testing is completed, we are waiting for formal declaration of IOC and delivery of jets to IAF.. FOC testing will start in parallel with MK II development..


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## kingdurgaking

please dont spoil sticky threads atleast... ignore trolls...


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## alam.saquiba

> Originally Posted by prakash View Post
> can fly only 45 mins ?
> with drop tanks how much can we extend?
> can tejas have conformal fuel tanks?



Year 2007 
Place somewhere in Western Russia
Incident: An MiG35 flew for Bangalore, *Within 2 hours It was at Bangalore with One mid air refueling*
Occasion: Aero India 2007 


How Far can LCA penetrate at NTP with Mach 1.2 (Average)??? (1195*1.2)*(3/4)/2=537Km


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## alam.saquiba

> ^^sure its multi-role when it fly from wagha to lahore or when it is sent to oneway suicide mission to karach.



OMG TROLLL


Wagha to lahore is just 30 Km, My mini car can make multiple trip without refueling... AJTR give some other Example....


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## rockstarIN

*LCA to get its initial operational clearance in January '11*







NEW DELHI (PTI): After nearly three decades of development, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will obtain its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in the second week of January next, taking its last step before induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

"The IOC is expected to come sometime around January '11 and it will be witnessed by Defence Minister A K Antony and IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik in Bangalore," a senior Defence Ministry official said here Thursday.

Being India's long-time-in-the-works project, LCA design and development by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was approved by the government in the late 1960s.

Nicknamed 'Tejas' in 2004, the LCA designing had been launched in 1985 by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the DRDO with HAL as the nodal manufacturing agency.

With the IOC coming in January, the IAF intends to induct two squadrons of the LCA by the middle of 2011. The IAF had first placed the orders for 40 LCAs in March 2005.

The first 40 LCAs will be powered by the American General Electric GE-F404 engines.

"The LCA will be inducted into the IAF sometime in the middle of next year," Naik had informed an aerospace seminar on Wednesday.

IAF also has plans to induct five more squadrons (100 aircraft) in the coming years but with a more powerful engine, the announcement for which came in 2009.

The government had a couple of months ago chosen GE-F414 as the new engine for future LCAs after rejecting its competitor Eurojet's EJ200 engine. A total of 99 GE-F414 engines are to be purchased under the deal with General Electric.

The IAF may ultimately have around 200 LCAs (10 squadrons) in its fleet, primarily to replace the ageing Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter jets.

IAF is likely to base the first of its LCA squadrons in one of the air bases in South India and Sulur near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu is touted to be that air base.

LCA to get its initial operational clearance in January '11 - Brahmand.com


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## rockstarIN

15 days more waiting....from Dec. 27th.

May be Antony's date is not available for Dec. 27th


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Celebrating the Wright Way! Bangalore kids fly their 'LCAs' in honor of great Wright Uncles!





















Bangalore -- India's hyped Aviation Capital of India -- slept again this year on the occasion of the 107th Anniversary of the historic first flight of Wright Brothers. None of the so-called flag-bearers of India aviation bothered to organize any events or conduct talks to commemorate this historic day. Above are some snapshots from a paper-plane flying contest conducted by Tarmak007 in association with the Inspired Indian Foundation at a public ground. Armed with 20 flying platforms of 'different sizes, make and endurance', middle schoolchildren of New Thippasandhara area remembered the contribution of Wright Brothers by launching their light combat aircraft. One after the other, they touched the skies with glory. When last heard, all the planes landed safely, barring one, which deviated from the flightpath immediately after the take-off, due to excessive initial thrust! Sorry, Wright Bors -- we shall put up a better show next year!


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## ajtr

rockstar said:


> 15 days more waiting....from Dec. 27th.
> 
> May be Antony's date is not available for Dec. 27th






rockstar said:


> *LCA to get its initial operational clearance in January '11*
> 
> LCA to get its initial operational clearance in January '11 - Brahmand.com


That was always expected.Well how can you expect HAL/DRDO to finish there job on time by looking at their past records of maintaining project schedule.And above all there is old habit of *"indian punctuality"* to boot for.





sudhir007 said:


> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Celebrating the Wright Way! Bangalore kids fly their 'LCAs' in honor of great Wright Uncles!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bangalore -- India's hyped Aviation Capital of India -- slept again this year on the occasion of the 107th Anniversary of the historic first flight of Wright Brothers. None of the so-called flag-bearers of India aviation bothered to organize any events or conduct talks to commemorate this historic day. Above are some snapshots from a paper-plane flying contest conducted by Tarmak007 in association with the Inspired Indian Foundation at a public ground. Armed with 20 flying platforms of 'different sizes, make and endurance', middle schoolchildren of New Thippasandhara area remembered the contribution of Wright Brothers by launching their light combat aircraft. One after the other, they touched the skies with glory. When last heard, all the planes landed safely, barring one, which deviated from the flightpath immediately after the take-off, due to excessive initial thrust! Sorry, Wright Bors -- we shall put up a better show next year!


These kids have are right in depicting LCA as paper plane but nothing else.When will our scientist will understand that all these 30 yrs all they succeeded in making a paper plane.


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## luckyyy

ajtr said:


> That was always expected.Well how can you expect HAL/DRDO to finish there job on time by looking at their past records of maintaining project schedule.And above all there is old habit of indian punctuality to boot for.



these planes are already with IAF since last one year , the IOC certification tests were formalities that IAF fullfill in nov-dec tests....

the documentation ceramony will be at aeroindia 2011 on jan11..

the IAF will keep flying them for another 12 months , then again in dec 2011 , a ceramony to certify FOC...

the main point is , LCA project is already done .....


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: JUST IN: Tejas jettisons first drop tank over ATR

The word is just out that India's Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) just jettisoned the first ever drop tank over the Aeronautical Test Range (ATR) in Chitradurga. Sources tell Tarmak007 that the flight was piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna of NFTC and everything went ahead as planned. This is part of the ongoing last-phase trials of Tejas ahead of the IOC on December 27. Will update if any more info drops in.


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## STAR SCREAM

hey sudhir ,would you like to tell me that if wrong flag is allowed here ? As i see a guy/gal/ watevr trolling here ,you know whom i talking about.


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## sudhir007

STAR SCREAM said:


> hey sudhir ,would you like to tell me that if wrong flag is allowed here ? As i see a guy/gal/ watevr trolling here ,you know whom i talking about.



Yes it is. As this is public forum so the guy who come and join it who has their own opinion which flag they what to come with. For me it is my Identity and Im proud to tell every body.

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## SpArK

STAR SCREAM said:


> hey sudhir ,would you like to tell me that if wrong flag is allowed here ? As i see a guy/gal/ watevr trolling here ,you know whom i talking about.



heyy.. some are of *sadistic* in nature... ignore them.

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## STAR SCREAM

thanks benny and sudhir.


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## Tajdar adil

There nothing in LCA most of the Indian is not sure about it also indian airforce.
And JF 17 is aircraft world best fighter.also participating in airshows.


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## arihant

Tajdar adil said:


> There nothing in LCA most of the Indian is not sure about it also indian airforce.
> And *JF 17 is aircraft worlds best fighter*.also participating in airshows.



Cool.. that means you know better than our Air Chief. And about JF 17 than you should post in seperate thread. 

And if you check back highlighted word, it seems to much ? ya or na ?


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## STAR SCREAM

Tajdar adil said:


> There nothing in LCA most of the Indian is not sure about it also indian airforce.
> And JF 17 is aircraft world best fighter.also participating in airshows.



yes!Very true jf 17 is tout to be next f 22 and LCA tout to be next ajeeth . Happy now .adios


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## Dash

Friends -

I request you again. These are News/technical discussion/SME threads. PLease dont post/write/reply any thing which tampers the reputations of this thread.

Regards,
Dash


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## ajtr

Tajdar adil said:


> There nothing in LCA most of the Indian is not sure about it also indian airforce.
> And JF 17 is aircraft world best fighter.*also participating in airshows.*


Just wait 1 and half month u'll see LCA flyig past janpath on republic day ...and good enough specimen to showcase in delhi museum.


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## Hulk

Tajdar adil said:


> There nothing in LCA most of the Indian is not sure about it also indian airforce.
> And JF 17 is aircraft world best fighter.also participating in airshows.



Yes true India is behind China, what about you? What do you have produced to criticize LCA?


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## ajtr

indianrabbit said:


> Yes true India is behind China, what about you? What do you have produced to criticize LCA?


Duplicate AK-47 guns of Darra markets which are so good enough that indian army too prefer these captured guns from terrorists in kashmir COIN operation on their super duper OFB manufactured INSAS.


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## Spitfighter

ajtr said:


> Duplicate AK-47 guns of Darra markets which are so good enough that indian army too prefer these captured guns from terrorists in kashmir COIN operation on their super duper OFB manufactured INSAS.



YouTube - First Pakistan Made helicopter

And you have the cheek to talk about the state of our aeronautical industry? 

Sure, you can bring up toilets and poverty for now but what will you ***** about in five years? The simple fact that you have to resort to the above mentioned cheap shots every other post should've humbled you a long time ago. Please do yourself a favor and stop comparing Pakistan to India.

I seriously can't believe the mods have ignored you for as long as they have. You are an utter disgrace to this forum, not once have I seen a valuable post from you.


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## ajtr

Spitfighter said:


> YouTube - First Pakistan Made helicopter
> 
> And you have the cheek to talk about the state of our aeronautical industry?
> 
> Sure, you can bring up toilets and poverty for now but what will you ***** about in five years? The simple fact that you have to resort to the above mentioned cheap shots every other post should've humbled you a long time ago. Please do yourself a favor and stop comparing Pakistan to India.
> 
> I seriously can't believe the mods have ignored you for as long as they have. You are an utter disgrace to this forum, not once have I seen a valuable post from you.


And look who is speaking all this with all those DRDO achievements before public eyes over the decades gambling away free indian public taxpayer's money


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## Water Car Engineer

indianrabbit said:


> Yes true India is behind China, what about you? *What do you have produced to criticize LCA*?



00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## Tajdar adil

Dont be angry indian that true.


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## sudhir007

YouTube - LCA (LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT) TEJAS * UPDATE * - HAL INDIAN AIR FORCE

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## tallboy123

Spitfighter said:


> YouTube - First Pakistan Made helicopter
> 
> And you have the cheek to talk about the state of our aeronautical industry?
> 
> Sure, you can bring up toilets and poverty for now but what will you ***** about in five years? The simple fact that you have to resort to the above mentioned cheap shots every other post should've humbled you a long time ago. Please do yourself a favor and stop comparing Pakistan to India.
> 
> I seriously can't believe the mods have ignored you for as long as they have. You are an utter disgrace to this forum, not once have I seen a valuable post from you.



Hey come on man...
Tejas is getting IOC soon know,so the Itch will also increase..
Just ignore him..
And enjoy his posts..
Soon u'll see threads like..
Tejas has no wings,
Tejas has no landing gear..
Tejas fuel get's over in just 10minutes..
Tejas can't drop bombs ..
Tejas has no computer system so it cannot be controlled by pilot..
Tejas cannot accommodate pilot in her C0ckpit..

U'll these type of comments and threads..
Just enjoy as i do..

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## Spitfighter

ajtr said:


> And look who is speaking all this with all those DRDO achievements before public eyes over the decades gambling away free indian public taxpayer's money



Its funny you bring that up, do you have any clue where Pakistan stands? seriously? You claim to live in the states so I shouldn't have to spell it out for you, just watch the news.

What in gods name are you talking about, I can accept the fact that India is still a poor, underdeveloped nation but what has Pakistan done that gives you the gall to talk smack (on the internet of course) about our endeavors? 

The bottom line is that India is making progress, sure its slow, but its happening. As a Pakistani, you just can't digest the fact that your country has absolutely nothing to show for itself (yeah, I mean NOTHING), except of course the occasional terrorist strike that's traced back to your soil. We're making progress in nearly every sphere of development, whether you like it or not India is a respected nation and slowly but surely we're making our mark on the world. 

The LCA has gone from a 2nd generation fighter as was the original intention to arguably a modest 4th generation platform that is leagues ahead (thanks to foreign input, that Pakistan will NEVER have access to) of the JF17. We're literally at the cusp of inducting our own home grown 4th generation fighter, not to mention the AC's and nuclear submarines we're working on, while Pakistanis are busy killing themselves as your nation's leaders watch apathetically. 

Trolling in every India related thread does nothing but betray your frustration and hopelessness with the state of affairs in your nation. You celebrate the failure of our *cryogenic engine* and at the same celebrate when your country assembles a $2000 helicopter as if you've landed on the moon, *doesn't that tell you something? *Perhaps you should focus more on the problems facing your nation rather than point out our failures. 

Once again, its amazing the mods have allowed you to remain here for so long. I haven't read a SINGLE meaningful post from you in your time here, you aren't helping Pakistan by messing with Indians you're just making your envy plainly obvious. Its really quite pitiful. 

Welcome to my ignore list, I've had enough of your BS. Good day to you.


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## Spitfighter

tallboy123 said:


> Hey come on man...
> Tejas is getting IOC soon know,so the Itch will also increase..
> Just ignore him..
> And enjoy his posts..
> Soon u'll see threads like..
> Tejas has no wings,
> Tejas has no landing gear..
> Tejas fuel get's over in just 10minutes..
> Tejas can't drop bombs ..
> Tejas has no computer system so it cannot be controlled by pilot..
> Tejas cannot accommodate pilot in her C0ckpit..
> 
> U'll these type of comments and threads..
> Just enjoy as i do..



I know what you're saying, I've ignored the guy for the longest time but seriously someone had to wake him up. In any case, he's on my ignore list so I won't waste anymore time on his idiotic BS. 

Can't wait for the 27th, boy what a Christmas!!


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## conworldus

Spitfighter said:


> *is leagues ahead (thanks to foreign input, that Pakistan will NEVER have access to) of the JF17*.



It is quite clear in the news that your current LCA falls short of its said specification, while the extend is classified. Therefore you do NOT know the true capability of the LCA, and saying that it is "leagues ahead" of the JF17 is just pure bull$hit in your imagination. 

Read:

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations | AVIATION WEEK


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: ADA confirms Tejas LSP-3 jettisoned a 1200-litre drop tank over ATR







Jettisonable drop tanks are carried by a combat aircraft, after completing the mission are required to be dropped from the mother aircraft for a quick get away from the enemy territory and other emergency situations. To ensure safety of flight, clean separation of the tank with adequate clearances from the mother aircraft or neighboring stores need to be established from flight test. This extremely safety critical flight test requires thorough planning and preparation supported by theoretical analysis and a level of verification of the predictions through ground tests on specialized test rigs set up for this purpose.
The theoretical predictions were further verified through what is called &#8216;Pit drop tests&#8217; conducted on a test specimen using specially designed test rig with part of the aircraft system and high speed photography system integrated with it. The test cases covered a member of conditions such as empty, partial and full drop tanks as well as different Ejector Release Unit (ERU) settings.
The flight test were planned by the National Flight Test centre (NFTC), ADA at certain representative critical release condition. Considering the safety critical nature of this test, a safety review was conducted at NFTC to ensure all foreseeable safety issues were taken care of before embarking on this important test. To capture the flight data, a dedicated and specialized Airborne Separation Video System (ASVS) is installed on the Test aircraft. The system comprised of very high speed digital cameras installed in a specially designed camera pod and linked to a Multi System Controller (MSC) installed onboard the aircraft. The MSC gets a pulse from trigger to jettison the tank where upon the cameras are switched on in a pre-determined sequence to capture this critical event.
Mr PS Subramanyam, Programme Director (CA) and Director, ADA told &#8220;the 1200 Ltr drop tank jettison trial was conducted on 17 December 2010 at a critical point in the jettison envelope on Tejas LSP-3 aircraft piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna. The trial was conducted over the recently commissioned NFTC Air to ground range at Chitradurga. The trial aircraft was escorted by another Tejas PV-2 which captured the external video picture of the drop tank trajectory after release&#8221;.
Dr Prahlada, CC-R&D (Ae-SI) &#8211; DRDO opined &#8220;with such test experiments made by the team, the aeronautical test range facility at Challakere has paved the smooth way for subsequent trials of different natures. He also said that if this facility were not to be commissioned at Challakere, all such flight tests would have to be carried on either at Hyderabad or Pokran. In view of the close proximity to Challakere to Bangalore it was more comfortable in conducting the test flights by the dedicated team the process of which could be monitored from Bangalore&#8221;.
The successful trial is the result of orchestrated team effort on the part of different organizations and specialists involved in this prestigious national programme- yet another feather on the decorated cap of the &#8216;Team Tejas.&#8217;

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## tallboy123

conworldus said:


> It is quite clear in the news that your current LCA falls short of its said specification, while the extend is classified. Therefore you do NOT know the true capability of the LCA, and saying that it is "leagues ahead" of the JF17 is just pure bull$hit in your imagination.
> 
> Read:
> 
> LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations | AVIATION WEEK



See here spitfire..
I said there will be posts and threads like these in coming minutes..
see this one

U'll see more on IOC day..
And spitfire u know how much does a JF-17 cost..?
I think u know that..
It's a win win situation for 3 of them also..

Buyer--->Got a cheap fighter jet within it's budget..
Seller--->Sold his fighter jet and made profits..
IAF-->Got an easy target...

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## Spitfighter

conworldus said:


> It is quite clear in the news that your current LCA falls short of its said specification, while the extend is classified. Therefore you do NOT know the true capability of the LCA, and saying that it is "leagues ahead" of the JF17 is just pure bull$hit in your imagination.
> 
> Read:
> 
> LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations | AVIATION WEEK



Doesn't specify what the expectations were now does it? Its not like we're settling for a jet that even the original manufacturers refuse to buy. Face it, Pakistan has no where to turn besides China for military equipment, and if that isn't enough in itself, even if the LCA falls a little short today we have the the necessary know how, foreign assistance and the RESOURCES (cough cough) to improve upon the platform, something Pakistan will simply never have access to in the foreseeable future. Its really as simple as that.

Of course, I'm not implying the LCA is inferior to the JF17, while both platforms are untested in combat I encourage you to read about the kind of equipment that has gone into each aircraft and draw your own conclusions, until you've done that, please don't waste my time with BS articles. The IAF is having a tough time deciding between the top 4.5 gen fighter jets of the day so that should tell you a little something about their standards/expectations.


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## angeldemon_007

I think IAF is taking careful steps. They have requirement of 200 fighters, they just placed 40 so as to encourage HAL. The eye would be on the Tejas MKII. 

If HAL is successful in achieving the goal, then we will get a great fighter and IAF will place order to replace the entire mig 21 fleet. But if the fighter doesn't perform as per expectations then IAF should go for Gripen NG. 

There's no place for egos in case of national security. We have to understand that Tejas is just the beginning and we are successful in making a very good fighter on our own but we we should only go for what is best in the world. This experience will pay us in the future.

Just look at Russia, they have made so many series of sukhois and migs that does not mean they induct every fighter they make. Just look at Su 30, Mig 35 etc and now they are making 5th gen fighter.

HAL should not be discouraged. We can sell Tejas to the 3rd world countries and show our superiority but that does not mean our forces have to buy these fighters.

Let me just clarify in the end, India should go for Gripen only if Tejas MKII is not as per the standards set by us and Gripen NG is definitely better than Tejas MKI.

Bye the way those Chinese JF17 looks like Typhoon. What are the specifications of JF17 ?/ I think China has made a nice fighter too.


----------



## ganimi kawa

Ajtr, please take your rants to non technical threads like those in the members club.

If you just browse through a few pages of this thread; you will notice that there is a good deal of interesting discussion going on about the technical and operational aspects of this craft.. 

If you have anything to contribute or query about along those lines; welcome! If not then please help us keep this thread drivel free by not contributing!


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## STAR SCREAM

easy spitfire and tallboy,remember we are guest here . Just wondered that what if we trolling in Jf 17 thread ? Either you get sacked or you msg get deleted soon. Mods are simply remain ignorant about this ajtr ,because hes trolling in indian thread . Spitfire you better not to show them real mirror image to these guys ,press the ignore button.


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## tallboy123

angeldemon_007 said:


> I think IAF is taking careful steps. They have requirement of 200 fighters, they just placed 40 so as to encourage HAL. The eye would be on the Tejas MKII.
> 
> If HAL is successful in achieving the goal, then we will get a great fighter and IAF will place order to replace the entire mig 21 fleet. But if the fighter doesn't perform as per expectations then IAF should go for Gripen NG.
> 
> There's no place for egos in case of national security. We have to understand that Tejas is just the beginning and we are successful in making a very good fighter on our own but we we should only go for what is best in the world. This experience will pay us in the future.
> 
> Just look at Russia, they have made so many series of sukhois and migs that does not mean they induct every fighter they make. Just look at Su 30, Mig 35 etc and now they are making 5th gen fighter.
> 
> HAL should not be discouraged. We can sell Tejas to the 3rd world countries and show our superiority but that does not mean our forces have to buy these fighters.
> 
> Let me just clarify in the end, India should go for Gripen only if Tejas MKII is not as per the standards set by us and Gripen NG is definitely better than Tejas MKI.
> 
> *Bye the way those Chinese JF17 looks like Typhoon. What are the specifications of JF17 ?/ I think China has made a nice fighter too*.



Don't be stupid u r comparing $15 million Jf-17 with $63 million Typhoon..
And u can't compare german engineering and Chinese engineering...

Or 
r u sarcastic?


----------



## Tajdar adil

lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## STAR SCREAM

can anyone put a LCA SPECIFICATION NOW WITH FULL DETAILS OF AVIONICS TO THIS RANT.


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## Indian-Devil

Tajdar adil said:


> lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Except  Do you know anything else?? Everywhere just putting these signs and trolling... I guess you have some problem of


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## AMCA

Guys stop It..... Why do You have to respond to trolls??? thats the maximum they can do, They will Shut up automatically once asked contribution of theres On the project they claim to be theirs... where as we have seen the Fate of there Aviation industry in the form of a Gyrocopter which they claim as Innovation  ....


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## Kinetic

ajtr said:


> And look who is speaking all this with all those DRDO achievements before public eyes over the decades gambling away free indian public taxpayer's money



If DRDO taking Indian public's money what bothers you? Can you build a carrier? Nuclear submarine? SLBM? Fighter aircraft? Attack chopper? MBT? No. So stop making funny comments. lol


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## Kinetic

sudhir007 said:


> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: ADA confirms Tejas LSP-3 jettisoned a 1200-litre drop tank over ATR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jettisonable drop tanks are carried by a combat aircraft, after completing the mission are required to be dropped from the mother aircraft for a quick get away from the enemy territory and other emergency situations. To ensure safety of flight, clean separation of the tank with adequate clearances from the mother aircraft or neighboring stores need to be established from flight test. This extremely safety critical flight test requires thorough planning and preparation supported by theoretical analysis and a level of verification of the predictions through ground tests on specialized test rigs set up for this purpose.
> The theoretical predictions were further verified through what is called Pit drop tests conducted on a test specimen using specially designed test rig with part of the aircraft system and high speed photography system integrated with it. The test cases covered a member of conditions such as empty, partial and full drop tanks as well as different Ejector Release Unit (ERU) settings.
> The flight test were planned by the National Flight Test centre (NFTC), ADA at certain representative critical release condition. Considering the safety critical nature of this test, a safety review was conducted at NFTC to ensure all foreseeable safety issues were taken care of before embarking on this important test. To capture the flight data, a dedicated and specialized Airborne Separation Video System (ASVS) is installed on the Test aircraft. The system comprised of very high speed digital cameras installed in a specially designed camera pod and linked to a Multi System Controller (MSC) installed onboard the aircraft. The MSC gets a pulse from trigger to jettison the tank where upon the cameras are switched on in a pre-determined sequence to capture this critical event.
> Mr PS Subramanyam, Programme Director (CA) and Director, ADA told the 1200 Ltr drop tank jettison trial was conducted on 17 December 2010 at a critical point in the jettison envelope on Tejas LSP-3 aircraft piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna. The trial was conducted over the recently commissioned NFTC Air to ground range at Chitradurga. The trial aircraft was escorted by another Tejas PV-2 which captured the external video picture of the drop tank trajectory after release.
> Dr Prahlada, CC-R&D (Ae-SI)  DRDO opined with such test experiments made by the team, the aeronautical test range facility at Challakere has paved the smooth way for subsequent trials of different natures. He also said that if this facility were not to be commissioned at Challakere, all such flight tests would have to be carried on either at Hyderabad or Pokran. In view of the close proximity to Challakere to Bangalore it was more comfortable in conducting the test flights by the dedicated team the process of which could be monitored from Bangalore.
> The successful trial is the result of orchestrated team effort on the part of different organizations and specialists involved in this prestigious national programme- yet another feather on the decorated cap of the Team Tejas.



Thats is an excellent news. They are on full force for IOC.  I think almost every day some news coming out about Tejas.


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## pulsar220

Kinetic said:


> Thats is an excellent news. They are on full force for IOC.  I think almost every day some news coming out about Tejas.



im pretty convinced that there will be a big surprise in aeroindia 2011..
im attending it


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## Kinetic

pulsar220 said:


> im pretty convinced that there will be a big surprise in aeroindia 2011..
> im attending it



you are lucky buddy!!! take some good pics and videos.


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## kish

Kinetic said:


> Thats is an excellent news. They are on full force for IOC.  I think almost every day some news coming out about Tejas.




yes that's really good news,, but real time to celebrate when we will hear something good for radar and engine ,,
waiting for IOC date


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## conworldus

STAR SCREAM said:


> easy spitfire and tallboy,remember we are guest here . Just wondered that what if we trolling in Jf 17 thread ? Either you get sacked or you msg get deleted soon. Mods are simply remain ignorant about this ajtr ,because hes trolling in indian thread . Spitfire you better not to show them real mirror image to these guys ,press the ignore button.



There is no trolling if what I said is true. My point is that the only thing we know about the LCA is that it is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the IAF, as per news said, so therefore, you guys have no knowledge how the LCA compares to other planes.

Also, the only reason I pointed that out is that whenever you Indians talk about this 30 year old projects, you have to put down China and Pakistan, making stupid remarks about our JF-17 and J-10.

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## kish

pulsar220 said:


> im pretty convinced that there will be a big surprise in aeroindia 2011..
> im attending it



i wish i will there too.........


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## SpArK

conworldus said:


> There is no trolling if what I said is true. My point is that the only thing we know about the LCA is that it is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the IAF, as per news said, so therefore, you guys have no knowledge how the LCA compares to other planes.
> 
> Also, the only reason I pointed that out is that whenever you Indians talk about this 30 year old projects, you have to put down China and Pakistan, making stupid remarks about our JF-17 and J-10.



Shortfall as in the article provided were _thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electrics F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version._

So the limited number of first batch will be still be short of what IAF asked for. But hopefully the problem is solved after working on various prototypes and intense testing which is going on.

Keep updated from the thread.


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## conworldus

BENNY said:


> Shortfall as in the article provided were _thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electrics F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version._
> 
> So the limited number of first batch will be still be short of what IAF asked for. But hopefully the problem is solved after working on various prototypes and intense testing which is going on.
> 
> Keep updated from the thread.



The article says "the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles"

From this description you can see several defects besides the engine: 1. Weight distribution 2. System integration 3. Weapon integration. Adding engines woes that's 4.

The LCA MK 2 has a long way to go. The LCA MK 1 is probably just for user feedback. Please stop saying things like the LCA is "leagues ahead of the JF-17". At its current state, this statement is simply pure baseless speculation with false pride.

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## SpArK

conworldus said:


> The article says "the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles"
> 
> From this description you can see several defects besides the engine: 1. Weight distribution 2. System integration 3. Weapon integration. Adding engines woes that's 4.
> 
> The LCA MK 2 has a long way to go. The LCA MK 1 is probably just for user feedback. *Please stop saying things like the LCA is "leagues ahead of the JF-17". At its current state, this statement is simply pure baseless speculation with false pride*.



when did i say that???

Systems integration and weapons integration has been worked on as it was too early to comment as its test was very recent. I have no idea about the weight distribution issue , maybe someone with more info can help u on that..

One more doubt .. are u here in thread for real or is it flame that i am replying to.


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## STAR SCREAM

no actully jf 17 is 9 wonder ever been made by china .adios STFU .NO NEED TO TROLL HERE


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## STAR SCREAM

Benny!!that article was just a farce and with no author . If there's anything true then Anantha of tarmak must had been autheticated in his blog long ago as he's the only journlist of aviation week who exclusively following tejas since long.


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## SpArK

STAR SCREAM said:


> Benny!!that article was just a farce and with no author . If there's anything true then Anantha of tarmak must had been authetic in his blog long ago as he's the only journlist of aviation week who exclusively following tejas since long.



Even if the article is right, i am okay. every criticism from IAf actually helps in rectifying any defects and make the fighter better and better..

I want IAF comes up with higher expectations.

Anyway the first batch with GE-404 will be stationed in relatively calm south Indian base of sulur.. 

My guess is that these can be made to trainers when the next batch (mk2) comes.


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## ajtr

STAR SCREAM said:


> no actully jf 17 is 9 wonder ever been made by china .adios STFU .NO NEED TO TROLL HERE


J-17 is already flying with PAF and LCA IOC got postponed to jan 2011 from 27th dec.first complete the plane and let it get inducted in IAF then come here and boast about it.

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## SpArK

ajtr said:


> J-17 is already flying with PAF and LCA IOC got postponed to jan 2011 from 27th dec.*first complete the plane and let it get inducted in IAF then come here and boast about it*.



Ok dear... why dont you recommend this thread to be closed instead.


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## STAR SCREAM

there is no doubt the tejas thrust/weight ratio is lacking due to increase in weight because of lots of avonics feed into it. Its orginaly designed for point defence craft but now IAF WANT HER TO BE MULTIROLE . Now it's in multirole league and am sure LSA 6 GOING TO SEE mere modification in her intake ,as it's experimental aircraft unlike others and it also going to open full tejas combat envelop.


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## SpArK

The thing to remember always is that we are not rushing into LCA as our life is dependent on it.

For IAF, LCA is just another vendor just like any other aircraft.

We are a nation with so many options in hand and are prepared to wait for the fighter to mature and become a lethal one.


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## STAR SCREAM

ajtr said:


> J-17 is already flying with PAF and LCA IOC got postponed to jan 2011 from 27th dec.first complete the plane and let it get inducted in IAF then come here and boast about it.



yes!! Its flying even tejas flying even more than their total flying hours.And who said its postponed? Brahmand.com ? Are you going to enjoy this media if they going to come with poor reviews on Jf 17 ?aaaa.. No rite . Anyway 1st you remove our flag


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## SpArK

STAR SCREAM said:


> yes!! Its flying even tejas flying even more than their total flying hours.And who said its postponed? Brahmand.com ? Are you going to enjoy this media if they going to come with poor reviews on Jf 17 ?aaaa.. No rite . Anyway 1st you remove our flag



Dude... please... please let it go.. lets just keep the thread clean..


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## conworldus

STAR SCREAM said:


> yes!! Its flying even tejas flying even more than their total flying hours.And who said its postponed? Brahmand.com ? Are you going to enjoy this media if they going to come with poor reviews on Jf 17 ?aaaa.. No rite . Anyway 1st you remove our flag



che, callate!


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## MZUBAIR

I think India should start working on MCA rather wasting money on LCA.
Use LCA experience in MCA. LCA airframe is an old one.

Look, how the number of world succefull Air Crafts came into being like F-16, F22, F-15, F-18, SU 30, Mig 29 etc...

Almost all come from other concepts or from failed projects. 

Time is good for IAF to make bold decisions....old frame without engine n powerfull radar would be useless in modren defence.

*No offence, just my opinion*


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> I think India should start working on MCA rather wasting money on LCA.
> Use LCA experience in MCA. *LCA airframe is an old one*.
> 
> Look, how the number of world succefull Air Crafts came into being like F-16, F22, F-15, F-18, SU 30, Mig 29 etc...
> 
> Almost all come from other concept or from failed projects.
> 
> Time is good for IAF to make bold decisions....old frame wo engine n powerfull radar would be useless in modren defence.
> 
> *No offence, just my opinion*



Do you mean delta wing based fighters are a thing of old???


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## ajtr

STAR SCREAM said:


> yes!! Its flying even tejas flying even more than their total flying hours.And who said its postponed? Brahmand.com ? Are you going to enjoy this media if they going to come with poor reviews on Jf 17 ?aaaa.. No rite . Anyway 1st you remove our flag



well same LCA fanboys like you posted that news from that site not me.....hope u 'll then believe the same story from pti and zeenews if not brahmand.


fullstory

LCA to get its IOC in January next


hope you know the meaning of induction.....


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## MAFIAN GOD

ajtr said:


> well same LCA fanboys like you posted that news from that site not me.....hope u 'll then believe the same story from pti and zeenews if not brahmand.
> 
> 
> fullstory
> 
> LCA to get its IOC in January next
> 
> 
> hope you know the meaning of induction.....



Now non-indian people believe the Indian media.


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## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> Do you mean delta wing based fighters are a thing of old???



The designe is not only based on Delta wing ...


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> The designe is not only based on Delta wing ...



That is a ridiculous statement.. If not ,what is it??/


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## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> That is a ridiculous statement.. If not ,what is it??/



How can u state that this is ridiculous statement...
Dont get personal .....rather to flame...I feel that ur trolling ...


Design is based not only on wings but also to the size, length, weight of the components, air intakes, Pressure intakes , weight balancing...there are many things come up in design....I cant teach u AIR DESIGN in few statements that people get the knolwedge in years. (thats ur ridicolous thinking to learn design in few posts)

As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old (study LCA design), n the jet is heavy....then the availablity of power.

TATA
First, u shld know abt LCA design then I will tell u wts its not effective in next few years (atleast 7 to 8 years).


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## rockstarIN

> conworldus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The article says "the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weapon delivery specially BVR configeration etc is the standard for Final Operation Clearance (FOC) not for IOC standards.
> 
> And for sustained turn rate, weight issues, we are getting new engines, these issues is to be resolved for FOC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From this description you can see several defects besides the engine: 1. Weight distribution 2. System integration 3. Weapon integration. Adding engines woes that's 4.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1, 2,3 points are to be tested for FOC..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The LCA MK 2 has a long way to go. The LCA MK 1 is probably just for user feedback. Please stop saying things like the LCA is "leagues ahead of the JF-17". At its current state, this statement is simply pure baseless speculation with false pride.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> After FOC, all these will be inducted to IAF. Nobody is comparing this to JFT. Only few trolls with false flags are creating the problems.
> 
> DRDO and IAF is very transperent..you will get everything from our web sites. so do not get confused with other wrong infos.
Click to expand...


----------



## rockstarIN

[


> QUOTE=MZUBAIR;1349958]As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old (study LCA design), n the jet is heavy....then the availablity of power.
> TATA
> First, u shld know abt LCA design then I will tell u wts its not effective in next few years (atleast 7 to 8 years).



Please enlighten us how a delta design(LCA) is old where as most of the modern fighters are applying it.(J-10, Gripen, EF & Rafale), now please do not tell us that these all got canards...

And if you think a tailess delta without canards cant perform well, then just remember the Mirage series...

Whether it is a swept wing or Delta, all has got its own adventages & disadventages...will you explain something?

What if i say the design of JFT is as old as 1975-80s?, dont you think it is as same as F-16s except the intakes?


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> How can u state that this is ridiculous statement...
> Dont get personal .....rather to flame...I feel that ur *trolling* ...




I believe you refer the meaning of the word, to use it.




> Design is based not only on wings but also to the size, length, weight of the components, air intakes, Pressure intakes , weight balancing...there are many things come up in design....I cant teach u AIR DESIGN in few statements that people get the knolwedge in years. (thats ur ridicolous thinking to learn design in few posts)
> 
> As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old (study LCA design), n the jet is heavy....then the availablity of power.
> 
> TATA
> First, u shld know abt LCA design then I will tell u wts its not effective in next few years (atleast 7 to 8 years).




Design not bases on wings...?? 

Then what else is a delta wing aircraft?/

I am a newbie when it comes to designs.. it would be great if u could shed some light on the issue.


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## STAR SCREAM

@mujabir . Yes!yes LCA IS OLD FLYING JUST 10FEET HIGH above GROUND FOR 10MINS ,THEN IT COMES DOWN WITH THE HELP OF BIG PARACHUTE. Not to mention JF 17 MADE BY CHINA IS SUPER DUPER STARSHIP TO TRANSPORT ASTRONAUTS TO INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION and Also out of galaxy due to its Hyper jump capability. Happy !! ? now get your *** of this thread ,there are lot where you can satisfy your appetite .


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## STAR SCREAM

oh!wahahahaha delta wing is old,so why mirage is still flying and am sure still many countries even like china going to choose instead of J10A If GIVEN A CHOICE .


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## STAR SCREAM

@mujabir . Yes!yes LCA IS OLD FLYING JUST 10FEET HIGH above GROUND FOR 10MINS ,THEN IT COMES DOWN WITH THE HELP OF BIG PARACHUTE. Not to mention JF 17 MADE BY CHINA IS SUPER DUPER STARSHIP TO TRANSPORT ASTRONAUTS TO INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION and Also out of galaxy due to its Hyper jump capability. Happy !! ? now get your *** of this thread ,there are lot where you can satisfy your appetite .


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## SpArK

STAR SCREAM said:


> @mujabir . Yes!yes LCA IS OLD FLYING JUST 10FEET HIGH above GROUND FOR 10MINS ,THEN IT COMES DOWN WITH THE HELP OF BIG PARACHUTE. Not to mention JF 17 MADE BY CHINA IS SUPER DUPER STARSHIP TO TRANSPORT ASTRONAUTS TO INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION and Also out of galaxy due to its Hyper jump capability. Happy !! ? now get your *** of this thread ,there are lot where you can satisfy your appetite .



Oh come on just shut up.. you are doing nothing but inviting flames....

Dont act like just another fanboy.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MZUBAIR

*Can LCA Tejas Do the Job?*
_(Some real aspects of Tejas)_

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is the most talked about indigenous aircraft being developed in India by the HAL. Its a 4.5 generation aircraft and also has an element of stealth as its radar signature is very small because of its size and shape. *If the design is to be considered, its absolutely brilliant. But, the question is, can it perform the tough job of protecting the Indian skies?*

Well, seems not in the current scenario. There are several reasons behind this; the *first being its speed*. Though the HAL says that it can reach Mach 2; the top speed of *Tejas recorded till date is only Mach 1.3. It sounds nice, but is dead slow to dodge an incoming missile flying at speed of nearly Mach 4. *The average speeds of other 4.5 generation aircraft are above Mach 2.2. So, if the aircraft runs out of ammunition during a combat, it has no way to escape.

*Speed of an aircraft plays a crucial role in a dogfight too.* From the very beginning of aerial warfare, continuous efforts are being made to produce a faster and more maneuverable aircraft. And history says faster aircraft have always won. So, in the era of fifth generation fighters that can reach supersonic speeds even without using their afterburners, can Tejas survive?

If we talk about advanced avionics, they surely increase performance in fighting, *but in desperate situations, the pilots have to go back to the basics. Slow speed affects the performance of Tejas in many areas*. Tejas is a light category aircraft. *This means it cannot carry much armament for beyond visual range (BVR) combat.* The pilot will have to switch to its 23 mm twin-barreled GSh cannon in an intense fight. Here speed and maneuverability play their part.

Initially, the Tejas was to be fitted with indigenously built GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri engine, but the Kaveri program has been marred by many technical and financial difficulties. Very less has been revealed to public regarding actual difficulties in development of Kaveri, but it is known that the engine has a tendency to throw turbine blades. Because of this, blades and digital engine control systems had to be procured from French manufacturer SNECMA. After Kaveri failed high altitude test in Russia in mid-2004, Tejas was fitted with General Electric F404-GE-IN20 engine, but the HAL said that all production aircraft will be fitted with Kaveri engines and the technical faults in the engine will be corrected very soon. 

*As technical flaws continued to occur, in 2008,* it was formally announced that Kaveri engine will not be ready for Tejas in time and an in-production powerplant will have to be purchased from foreign companies. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414 engines. But the selection process will take its time and till then the first operational squadron of Tejas will be fitted with the GE F404 engine. The F404 engine cannot provide enough thrust to Tejas for combat maneuvers, thus restricting speed and ability to fight.

Another weakness of Tejas is lack of thrust vectoring. Its not that the Tejas is not agile, but here we are talking about super maneuverability which is essential now-a-days. Super maneuverability is achieved by directing the thrust developed by engine in required direction (thrust vectoring). With the help of it, an aircraft can perform almost impossible maneuvers.

The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI currently serving in the Indian Air Force has the most perfect thrust vectoring system ever built. The aircraft remains highly maneuverable even at very high angles of attack and near-zero speeds without stalling. It is feared as well as respected all over the world for this quality. *But, with no sufficient speed and lack of super maneuverability, Tejas will be a sitting duck for enemy fighters.*

Its not the first time when a brilliant design by HAL is lagging behind just because *of lack of a powerful engine.* The same thing had happened with HAL HF-24 Marut, the first supersonic aircraft built in India. Designed by legendary designer Kurt Tank, the Marut could never be used to its complete potential just because of lack of thrust. *HAL should have had taken a lesson from it in the development of Kaveri engine, which was powerful enough to give Tejas supercruise ability. However, it also lacked thrust vectoring.*

Third and the most important factor is time being taken to complete the project. The LCA project is already delayed a lot because of the snags in Kaveri engine. *It is still undergoing trials and may take several more years to enter full production*. The absence of a perfectly suitable engine is contributing in making the things even worse. Even if it is inducted in the air force within two or three years, it will be equipped with the inefficient GE F404 engine. *So, it is possible that it may not be able to deliver its best when it is needed the most.*

The LCA project shows a clear picture of governments casual approach towards defense research and development. After independence, India has built only two indigenous fighter aircraft and only one tank. India is currently facing a tough challenge of curbing the ever increasing cross-border terrorism and the Naxal menace within. Apart from this, theres always a threat from our hostile neighbor. In these circumstances, the government should have paid more attention towards defense projects. *Lets hope that they take a lesson from the LCA project and dont repeat the same mistakes in the development of new fifth generation fighter. Amen.*

________________________________________________________
_Accept it or not the design is good but AC is heavy, Engine and radar problem still exist. Poor speed , manevers, BVR missiles.

So many things lacking....I dont see and SQD b4 2015 when PAF will stop JF-17 production.  _


----------



## Ammyy

MZUBAIR said:


> *
> So many things lacking....I dont see and SQD b4 2015 when PAF will stop JF-17 production. *[/COLOR]



So you are happy with incomplete plane that is useless in fight 

and your last line PAF will stop production of JF17

Well its good for you cause its really useless


----------



## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> *Can LCA Tejas Do the Job?*
> _(Some real aspects of Tejas)_
> 
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is the most talked about indigenous aircraft being developed in India by the HAL. It&#8217;s a 4.5 generation aircraft and also has an element of stealth as its radar signature is very small because of its size and shape. *If the design is to be considered, it&#8217;s absolutely brilliant. But, the question is, &#8216;can it perform the tough job of protecting the Indian skies?&#8217;*
> 
> Well, seems not in the current scenario. There are several reasons behind this; the *first being its speed*. Though the HAL says that it can reach Mach 2; the top speed of *Tejas recorded till date is only Mach 1.3. It sounds nice, but is dead slow to dodge an incoming missile flying at speed of nearly Mach 4. *The average *speed*s of other 4.5 generation aircraft are above Mach 2.2. So, if the aircraft runs out of ammunition during a combat, it has no way to escape.
> 
> *Speed of an aircraft plays a crucial role in a dogfight too.* From the very beginning of aerial warfare, continuous efforts are being made to produce a faster and more maneuverable aircraft. And history says faster aircraft have always won. So, in the era of fifth generation fighters that can reach supersonic *speeds* even without using their afterburners, can Tejas survive?
> 
> If we talk about advanced avionics, they surely increase performance in fighting, *but in desperate situations, the pilots have to go back to the basics. Slow speed affects the performance of Tejas in many areas*. Tejas is a light category aircraft. *This means it cannot carry much armament for beyond visual range (BVR) combat.* The pilot will have to switch to its 23 mm twin-barreled GSh cannon in an intense fight. Here *speed* and maneuverability play their part.
> 
> 
> 
> *As technical flaws continued to occur, in 2008,* it was formally announced that Kaveri engine will not be ready for Tejas in time and an in-production powerplant will have to be purchased from foreign companies. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414 engines. But the selection process will take its time and till then the first operational squadron of Tejas will be fitted with the GE F404 engine. The F404 engine cannot provide enough *thrust* to Tejas for combat maneuvers, thus restricting speed and ability to fight.
> 
> Another weakness of Tejas is lack of *thrust* vectoring. It&#8217;s not that the Tejas is not agile, but here we are talking about &#8216;super maneuverability&#8217; which is essential now-a-days. Super maneuverability is achieved by directing the *thrust* developed by engine in required direction (thrust vectoring). With the help of it, an aircraft can perform almost impossible maneuvers.
> 
> The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI currently serving in the Indian Air Force has the most perfect thrust vectoring system ever built. The aircraft remains highly maneuverable even at very high angles of attack and near-zero speeds without stalling. It is feared as well as respected all over the world for this quality. *But, with no sufficient speed and lack of super maneuverability, Tejas will be a sitting duck for enemy fighters.*
> 
> It&#8217;s not the first time when a brilliant design by HAL is lagging behind just because *of lack of a powerful engine.* The same thing had happened with HAL HF-24 Marut, the first supersonic aircraft built in India. Designed by legendary designer Kurt Tank, the Marut could never be used to its complete potential just because of lack of thrust. *HAL should have had taken a lesson from it in the development of Kaveri engine, which was powerful enough to give Tejas supercruise ability. However, it also lacked thrust vectoring.*
> 
> 
> The LCA project shows a clear picture of government&#8217;s casual approach towards defense research and development. After independence, India has built only two indigenous fighter aircraft and only one tank. India is currently facing a tough challenge of curbing the ever increasing cross-border terrorism and the Naxal menace within. Apart from this, there&#8217;s always a threat from our hostile neighbor. In these circumstances, the government should have paid more attention towards defense projects. *Let&#8217;s hope that they take a lesson from the LCA project and don&#8217;t repeat the same mistakes in the development of new fifth generation fighter. Amen.*
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> _Accept it or not the design is good but AC is heavy, Engine and radar problem still exist. Poor speed , manevers, BVR missiles.
> 
> So many things lacking....I dont see and SQD b4 2015 when PAF will stop JF-17 production.  _




The article has *speed* and *lack of thrust* written all around it .. 

Thats why we are having GE F-414 for future fighters which is also powering F-18/super hornets and the latest Grippens.


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## SpArK

*F414-GE * of the






*Super Hornets.*


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## SpArK

We are getting the F414-GE-INS6 *the highest thrust F414 variant*, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC)

GE - Aviation: F414


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## kingdurgaking

conworldus said:


> There is no trolling if what I said is true. *My point is that the only thing we know about the LCA is that it is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the IAF*, as per news said, so therefore, you guys have no knowledge how the LCA compares to other planes.
> 
> Also, the only reason I pointed that out is that whenever you Indians talk about this 30 year old projects, you have to put down China and Pakistan, making stupid remarks about our JF-17 and J-10.



Fine dude.. and do you think IAF will like JF-17 and J-10 for that matter.. if given a chance they will surely talk bad than Tejas


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## Ammyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Find dude.. and do you think IAF will like JF-17 and J-10 for that matter.. if given a chance they will surely talk bad than Tejas



Dnt wary buddy they know how much incapable their fighters are so just want to release frustration here


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## kingdurgaking

DRDO said:


> Dnt wary buddy they know how much incapable their fighters are so just want to release frustration here



i know every one..
can we move this discussions outside sticky please... Sticky thread got spoilt finally...


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## alam.saquiba

Delta Wing Design...
Delta wing design was a drawback for those who wanted great Maneuver... (F1) But after Fly by wire came Delta design became more lethal... Now delta design give high speed and FBW will give it great unstability... LCA has cranked delta design...


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> We are getting the F414-GE-INS6 *the highest thrust F414 variant*, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC)
> 
> GE - Aviation: F414



No need for explainations Benny, he obviously have no idea of what he is talking, because the calls a fighter with delta wings and high ammount of composite materials an old design, so much for Gripen, Rafale, EF and even J10B.
He calls a fighter that has already with GE 404 has more thrust than JF 17 (dry and with ABs) underpowered. 
He calls a fighter with at max the same weight as JF 17 overweighted, so what would that mean about JF 17?

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## Hulk

MZUBAIR said:


> How can u state that this is ridiculous statement...
> Dont get personal .....rather to flame...I feel that ur trolling ...
> 
> 
> Design is based not only on wings but also to the size, length, weight of the components, air intakes, Pressure intakes , weight balancing...there are many things come up in design....I cant teach u AIR DESIGN in few statements that people get the knolwedge in years. (thats ur ridicolous thinking to learn design in few posts)
> 
> As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old (study LCA design), n the jet is heavy....then the availablity of power.
> 
> TATA
> First, u shld know abt LCA design then I will tell u wts its not effective in next few years (atleast 7 to 8 years).



Nice you know you are expert at fighter plan design, by the way how many how you done so far?

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## angeldemon_007

> As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old


....
Dude its not about the design, there are some standards that are followed.
As you said exactly :


> I cant teach u AIR DESIGN in few statements that people get the knolwedge in years. (thats ur ridicolous thinking to learn design in few posts)


No disrespect.....


> As far LCA concerns their is no AIRFRAME fault but the design is old (study LCA design), n the jet is heavy....then the availablity of power


This statement completely wrong. I admit there are same points which will be resolved before induction. The thrust to weight ratio will be resolved by using GE F414. All the LCA that will be inducted will initially have GE engines and then Kaveri.
LSP 5 will not be inducted, there would be atleast LSP6 which will be showcased in Aero India 2011.
Even your plane has the delta wing, although i have to admit it is sexier.


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## shuntmaster

rockstar said:


> [
> 
> Please enlighten us how a delta design(LCA) is old where as most of the modern fighters are applying it.(J-10, Gripen, EF & Rafale), now please do not tell us that these all got canards...
> 
> And if you think a tailess delta without canards cant perform well, then just remember the Mirage series...
> 
> Whether it is a swept wing or Delta, all has got its own adventages & disadventages...will you explain something?
> 
> What if i say the design of JFT is as old as 1975-80s?, dont you think it is as same as F-16s except the intakes?



Even the FC-1 (JF-17) is basically delta wing design. The difference between LCA and FC-1 is that LCA is tailless and cranked-delta winged.

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## STAR SCREAM

Can anyone tell me if GE 414 IN S6 is EPE or EDE because they mentioned highest thrust variant of Ge 414 model , what NLCA ENGINE going to be ?anyway if its EPE then add 20%of 98KN =117KN . Its enough for future upgrade even for LCAMK3 if they planned for.


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## khatarnak gunda

MZUBAIR said:


> Design is based not only on wings but also *to the size, length, weight of the components, air intakes, Pressure intakes , weight balancing...*there are many things come up in design....I cant teach u AIR DESIGN in few statements that people get the knolwedge in years. (thats ur ridicolous thinking to learn design in few posts)



dear mzubair, i am not a master of aircraft design but have enough knowledge to understand something. what you are refering is the design of the whole aircraft and what benny and others are referring is the wing design only. and yes, it is a delta wing design.


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## sancho

STAR SCREAM said:


> Can anyone tell me if GE 414 IN S6 is EPE or EDE because they mentioned highest thrust variant of Ge 414 model , what NLCA ENGINE going to be ?anyway if its EPE then add 20%of 98KN =117KN . Its enough for future upgrade even for LCAMK3 if they planned for.



There is no official source that talks about EPE, or EDE, the fact that the costs are very low (around $8 millions per engine), hints just on the normal 414 engine. N-LCA will get the same engine, the first versions might get even the GE404 only, which makes it even more crazy to develop N-LCA. 
An LCA MK3 should get the Kaveri - Snecma engine and not a foreign engine anymore, which is also planed to get 90+ kN thrust.


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## sudhir007

any farther news about IOC ???


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## kingdurgaking

IOC postponed ed to Jan 10th


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## Markus

kingdurgaking said:


> IOC postponed ed to Jan 10th



What other option do we have apart from waiting ?


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## Hulk

They just want to declare IOC in Aero India.


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## gowthamraj

^ but aero India show in feb only


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## SpArK

gowthamraj said:


> ^ but aero India show in feb only



He meant to say Aero India show, 2012..

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## Markus

Why cant this guys do night shifts and compete their job ?

These bloody govt servants cant get off their 9 to 5 job mentality.

The reputation of the country is at stake and they are playing with LCA and keep delaying important events like IOC which will allow the air force to lay their hands on Tejas. 

Tejas IOC is an important milestone which will bolster India's image in the defence industry.

Just hurry up !!!


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## kish

kingdurgaking said:


> IOC postponed ed to Jan 10th



what!!!!!!!!!!
not 27th December
what wrong now 

at one side we call it nation pride and at back we delay its every date,,,

this kinda habit must be avoided ...


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## rockstarIN

So far we understand, it is ready for IOC, they are ready, may be awaiting our Neta's date to unveil


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## ganimi kawa

Deccan Herald confirming the Jan 10 date for the induction of LCA. Maybe only the IOC will be granted in DEC.

*LCA to be inducted next month*




> *The first Tejas squadron will receive its initial operational clearance at a function on January 10,* catapulting India to a select club of nations that built a fighter plane from scratch. The historic first squadron will be stationed at Sulur near Coimbatore, sources said. Defence Minister A Kantony will be present at the function.




Here is some extra info which I found interesting.



> *The second LCA squadron will be stationed at Kayathir near Tuticorin, where the IAF is developing a new fighter base. The small World War II base will be converted into a major aviation hub in a few years.*


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## sudhir007

LCA to be inducted next month

After three decades of development, the first squadron of indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is all set to be inducted into the Indian Air Force(IAF) next month.

The first Tejas squadron will receive its initial operational clearance at a function on January 10, catapulting India to a select club of nations that built a fighter plane from scratch. The historic first squadron will be stationed at Sulur near Coimbatore, sources said. Defence Minister A Kantony will be present at the function.

Even though the development began in 1983, the first LCA technology demonstrator flew only in 2001. Four years later, the IAF placed the first order of 20 Tejas at a cost of Rs 2,700 crore. Subsequently, it placed an order for another squadron.

The second LCA squadron will be stationed at Kayathir near Tuticorin, where the IAF is developing a new fighter base. The small World War II base will be converted into a major aviation hub in a few years.

After receiving the initial operational clearance, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will manufacture the first 20 Tejas aircraft in two batches of 10 planes each.

So far, HAL has manufactured two technology demonstrators, five prototypes and 28 limited series production aircraft with imported engine. However, HAL will continue to upgrade the indigenous fighter as the IAF plans to induct close to 200 LCAs and 20 twin seater trainer versions in the long run.

Along with the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft and fifth generation fighter aircraft LCA will be one of the mainstay planes of the IAF in the coming decades. The mark I planes will be inducted by 2014.

The mark II version of the LCA with a more powerful engine, better aerodynamics and advanced avionics is also under development. The naval version of the LCA, to be used in aircraft carriers, are also under development. Most of the delay in the LCA programme was due to the technical difficulties and resource crunch faced by the research team under defence research and development organisation.

The problem was compounded by the sanctioned imposed by the US in 1998 following Pokhran II. All of a sudden, scientists found that the door was shut on them and many key components and equipment needed for producing a fighter plane was simply not available. Subsequently, they had to develop those sub-systems as well.

The booming IT industry in Bangalore and Hyderabad also contributed to the woes of the LCA team with many young and mid-career engineers and technical hands leaving the LCA industry in search of greener pastures. 

Only after placing the order in 2005 that the IAF stationed a 14-member LCA induction team, headed by an Air Vice Marshal in Bangalore to steer the indigenous fighter to its destination.


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## luckyyy

> So far, HAL has manufactured two technology demonstrators, five prototypes and 28 limited series production aircraft with imported engine



is it 28 or 8 ?


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## Indian-Devil

Ya, its some typo mistake. Nos should be 8 only.


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## STAR SCREAM

HEY guyz today at mid day, i clicked MI 17 taking off from THANE AIRFORCE STATION,simply wanna share with you all

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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: IOC for Tejas -- The Inside Story: Releasing tonight on Tarmak007


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## sageof6path

nothing can be done till they do some thing regarding the angle of attack until they fix the problem IAF will not accept


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## jha

STAR SCREAM said:


> HEY guyz today at mid day, i clicked MI 17 taking off from THANE AIRFORCE STATION,simply wanna share with you all



Bhai Saab..Kahan rahte ho aap..??

Keep posting such pics..


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## jha

*Tejas' IOC saga: Its a light, late, yet great story! *











Its now official. Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the initial operational clearance (IOC) in January 2011 and not on December 27. However, Tejas makers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are burning the mid-night oil to get the platform and systems certified through the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), as per the original December-27 deadline.As of now, we have fixed it has January 10 and this again is a verbal confirmation and nothing is in yet, in black and white. There are a host of VIPs who are scheduled to attend the event in Bangalore, including Defense Minister A.K. Antony. A final decision will be taken next week, military sources tell Tarmak007. While ADA-DRDO is still working out the final template of the event, there are multiple theories floating as to what the event would be finally called. While one set claims that it would be called Release to Service, another school of thought says it will be Dedication of Tejas to Nation. Then theres a third front which firmly believes that it cant be called IOC as there are a couple of more platforms from the Tejas flight-line to be flown\tested and hence it has to be IOC-1.Says a top source at ADA: Release to Service of a product whose standard of preparation is for IOC. We are about to finish what was demanded. When an aircraft reaches the final phase, there will be some minor issues. This is not an Indian phenomenon, but seen world over.
And, here are some confirmations:
1) The squadron formation of Tejas will most likely happen only in mid-2011.
2) The first platform (SP-1) from the initial block of 20 will be ready only by June\July 2011.
3) LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be ready only in March/April 2011.
4) Test pilots from IAFs elite Bangalore-based unit -- Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE) -- will fly Tejas soon after all IOC formalities are done.
5) Pilots from IAF will have to undergo the following before flying Tejas: intensive simulation training, studying the flight manuals and grasping the flight reference records. The pilots will also be given familiarization sessions.
Normally our (IAF) Test pilots will have 2,000-3,000 hours of flying logged against their names. Squadron pilots will not\might not have this kind of expertise (w.r.t. number of hours as against test pilots) and hence pre-flight preparations become very vital. We will start with our evaluation trials with Test pilots (other than NFTC pilots). We have many experienced boys and some were up there flying the MMRCAs during the trials, a senior IAF official tells Tarmak007.Insiders confirm that the morale of Team Tejas is sky high with 98 per cent of certification process completed when this blog goes live on X-Mas eve. By December 27, we will have one more flight of LSP-5 to test some points. We are ready. No issues with the dates spilling over to next year, says an engineer with CEMILAC.Interestingly, another IAF official, who attended a meeting of Tejas think-tank on December 21 in New Delhi, says the program as complex as Tejas, will have some last-minute issues. Having come this far, we are keen to ensure that everything is in place. But, the truth is they (ADA-HAL) have asked for some concessions and we have given it, after discussions, he said.So folks! Independent-Indias first home-grown fighter plane is ready.Its light! But its late! OK. Agreed. But, isnt it great?


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## STAR SCREAM

jha said:


> Bhai Saab..Kahan rahte ho aap..??
> 
> Keep posting such pics..



Thane airforce stn!!dint i ever told you that my father is in indian airforce lol. I got lots of pics of up closeup personlise pics of Su30k when they were 1st inducted but problem is they all are photographs as they taken long back in 1998 and am too lazy to get them scanned yaar.


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## anathema

STAR SCREAM said:


> Thane airforce stn!!dint i ever told you that my father is in indian airforce lol. I got lots of pics of up closeup personlise pics of Su30k when they were 1st inducted but problem is they all are photographs as they taken long back in 1998 and am too lazy to get them scanned yaar.



Thane has got airforce station ? Blimmme....where exactly ? My in laws stay in thane and i never knew about a airforce station......


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## STAR SCREAM

anathema said:


> Thane has got airforce station ? Blimmme....where exactly ? My in laws stay in thane and i never knew about a airforce station......



*THANE AIRFORCE STATION ,KOLSHET ROAD* ask ur in-law about kapurwadi mate ,he will tell you in details lol


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## kingdurgaking

Any news about Naval LCA.. it should have done flight testing this week..


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## ganimi kawa

*There Are Issues, But We're Reasonable Happy: IAF Vice Chief On Tejas IOC* (via livefist)


I asked IAF vice chief Air Marshal PK Barbora this morning about rumoured issues that the service had with the LCA Tejas IOC parameters. 

Here's his reply in full: "Any venture of this nature, making a product from scratch always takes time. It is not only in India, even Western countries have taken 15-20 years to produce an aircraft. 

India's first venture has taken time. *Ultimately, we are reaching the goal that we had looked for.* Albeit a little late, but it's coming through and it will definitely help us move into the future.

[Regarding the specific issue of IOC], *there are no serious problems that we visualise that cannot be tackled.* There are issues. For the IOC part of it, we are quite reasonably happy.

* Hopefully by the end of next year, we would have formed the first squadron.* We would have flown the requisite number of hours which we have stipulated for ourselves. For stability, we are planning initially to have them in Bangalore. Teething problems will be there. But we will resolve them."

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## rockstarIN

*IAF 'reasonably happy' with LCA Tejas: Barbora
*







NEW DELHI (PTI): The Indian Air Force Tuesday said it is "reasonably happy" with the lightweight multirole aircraft fighter 'Tejas', which is expected to obtain the Initial Operational Clearance next month, though there are certain issues to be sorted out yet.

"There are no serious problems that we visualise that can't be tackled. There are issues and it is a joint venture... For the IOC part of it, we are quite reasonably happy," IAF Vice Chief Air marshal P K Barbora told reporters here.

He was asked whether the force was happy with the indigenously-developed LCA 'Tejas', which is expected to obtain IOC in January next year after which it would be ready for induction into the IAF.

Barbora said though the programme has come a "little late", it would help India achieve the goal of designing and developing a fighter aircraft indigenously. It would also help in future projects, he said.

The IAF Vice Chief said the first squadron of the LCA is likely to be formed by the end of next year at Sulur in Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu.

"Initially, for the sake of stability the aircraft would be based in Bangalore itself, hopefully, the teething problems, which will be there, would be resolved," he added.

The IAF is expected to induct two squadrons of the aircraft by the middle of next year.

The aircraft has been manufactured by HAL at its Bangalore facility and its designer DRDO's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is also based there.

Asked how many LCAs are being planned to be inducted by the IAF, Barbora said, "We have ordered for 40 at the moment and we would further look into the issue after the LCA Mk II is ready."

ADA and HAL are also working on developing the LCA Mk II, which would equipped with the GE-414 engines.

Asked to comment on the status of the M-MRCA programme, the IAF Vice Chief said the IAF had submitted its report on the field evaluation trials with the Defence Ministry around six months ago.

Under the deal expected to be worth over USD 11 billion, IAF is planning to procure 126 multi-role combat aircraft for which six aircraft including F-16, F/A-18, Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale and the MiG 35 are in the race.

IAF 'reasonably happy' with LCA Tejas: Barbora - Brahmand.com

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## sudhir007




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## luckyyy

> *IAF 'reasonably happy' with LCA Tejas: Barbora*
> 
> "Initially, for the sake of stability the aircraft would be based in Bangalore itself, *hopefully, the teething problems, which will be there, would be resolved," *he added.


teething problems ..!

integration of BVR missiles , r-77?
angle of attack..?


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## angeldemon_007

> teething problems ..!


Yeah, i also looked into this....no more info.
But the thing is AF is not buying any more mk I, they are looking towards mkII.
In my opinion, if that also doesnot go well, then i think we should opt for Gripen. No need to settle for mediocre products when world class offers are with us. We have the offer to sell Gripen as our own product. How about that ?/ 
Also what are the features of Naval LCA, I mean is it gonna based on mkI or mkII ?? I know some features which will be there as it will be AC borne fighter.
But we have to seriously consider its capability as it would be placed on our AC. What if its not capable to defend our AC ?/ Losing an AC would be very bad for India in case of a war.
I mean we have to seriously evaluate what we have created before induction, even if it hurts somebody's ego.
HAL has no doubt made a good fighter, this knowledge will definitely help us in future but that doesnot mean we have to purchase whatever HAL and DRDO makes. 
Even Russia made Su30 but they never inducted them. They will induct PakFA.
We also should consider all points as it is about our national security. We should also go only for what is best for us.


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## luckyyy

every system take time to evolved....


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## MAFIAN GOD

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah, i also looked into this....no more info.
> But the thing is AF is not buying any more mk I, they are looking towards mkII.
> In my opinion, if that also doesnot go well, then i think we should opt for Gripen. No need to settle for mediocre products when world class offers are with us. We have the offer to sell Gripen as our own product. How about that ?/
> Also what are the features of Naval LCA, I mean is it gonna based on mkI or mkII ?? I know some features which will be there as it will be AC borne fighter.
> But we have to seriously consider its capability as it would be placed on our AC. What if its not capable to defend our AC ?/ Losing an AC would be very bad for India in case of a war.
> I mean we have to seriously evaluate what we have created before induction, even if it hurts somebody's ego.
> HAL has no doubt made a good fighter, this knowledge will definitely help us in future but that doesnot mean we have to purchase whatever HAL and DRDO makes.
> Even Russia made Su30 but they never inducted them. They will induct PakFA.
> We also should consider all points as it is about our national security. We should also go only for what is best for us.



Dude, we will be inducting a mix of Mig-29k and naval-Tejas on two aircraft carriers.
I think you are aware of the capabilities of Mig-29ks.
Naval Tejas will be a complementary with Migs.
Mig-29k will be our main fighter.
Also carriers are well protected by CBGs(Carrier Battle Group).


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## rockstarIN

How many air bases we have in south? Only sulur?, I think Blore base is not equipped with fighter jets now.

All the shores in South India is open to any attack now..

Even If LCA stationed at Sulur, is it possible to reach to Palk strait or Lakshwadeep to support'?


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## SpArK

*"LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA​*




"It may not be what we want, but it is our own aircraft," says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy in an interview to FORCE magazine. He was asked how effective the LCA Navy would be for a carrier-based role given that it "only an eight ton platform". The officer's response: "I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. LCA Navy will remain a modest platform with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms. Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets."

Also, unless the LCA Navy decides to fly tomorrow or the day after, looks like it will be missing its December first flight schedule. What a pity.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA


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## angeldemon_007

> Dude, we will be inducting a mix of Mig-29k and naval-Tejas on two aircraft carriers.


Dude, first look at the no.of fighters we can station on our AC.



> Also carriers are well protected by CBGs(Carrier Battle Group).


I know this , i never meant that fighter jets will sink the AC. Its not possible, but they can do considerable surface damage forcing it to be decommissioned. 


> I think you are aware of the capabilities of Mig-29ks.


I am just saying we should be prepared for the worst. Everybody is making purchases of fighters like f16.
Even navy is saying in low volume that they don't need Naval LCA, what they want is naval rafale but nobody listens to them.


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## 1000VA

*DRDO official release*


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## angeldemon_007

Good news.....What is the progress on Kaveri-Snecma engine ??/


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## AMCA

angeldemon_007 said:


> Good news.....What is the progress on Kaveri-Snecma engine ??/



Its Cancelled..... GTRE Has Single crystal Blade technology in hands now, It can Pace ahead with Kaveri now, But it would be good if going for a JV with Snecma


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## ganimi kawa

*Cost To Develop Tejas Mk-2: $542-million*








> The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the development of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme will be *sanctioned $542.44-million (Rs 2431.55-crore) to develop the Tejas Mk-2*, making up Phase-III of the programme's full scale engineering development (FSED).
> 
> *Also, the deadline for final operational clearance for the Tejas Mk-1 is December 2012.*



( from livefist)


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## SpArK

*Cost To Develop Tejas Mk-2: $542-million​*






The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the development of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme will be sanctioned $542.44-million (Rs 2431.55-crore) to develop the Tejas Mk-2, making up Phase-III of the programme's full scale engineering development (FSED). Also, the deadline for final operational clearance for the Tejas Mk-1 is December 2012.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Cost To Develop Tejas Mk-2: $542-million


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## GORKHALI

great!!! i think its more than enough for development and modification including 4 prototype A/Cs


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## sudhir007

what is that mean* FOC for mk-1* this is Ist time i here ????


> *Also, the deadline for final operational clearance for the Tejas Mk-1 is December 2012.*


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## shrivatsa

final operational clearance!


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## ganimi kawa

Good story on Tejas!

*On our own wings*


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## ganimi kawa

Interview from Dr. P.S. SUBRAMANYAM, also from the week,
*Antony tilted the balance in favour of the LCA*


Interview from Group Captain Suneet Krishna

*Tejas is a pilot's aircraft*

P.S. I've posted the matter in a seperate thread.


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## Defence Expert

i hope lca mk II will look better than mk I. LCA look like trainer aircraft.


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## GORKHALI

Tejas, India&#8217;s first fighter aircraft, is combat ready. Here
is the story of how it beat
sceptics and sanctions By Ramu Patil Please do not allow the first
flight of the Light Combat
Aircraft to take place. The
aircraft has not been
developed with adequate
rigour, and safety aspects have not been fully looked into. It
would be a catastrophe if you
allow it to fly. This was the gist of a cable
which landed on then defence
minister George Fernandes&#8217;s table in 2001. It came from a
major US military aircraft
manufacturer on January 3, a
day before the maiden flight of
the indigenously designed and
developed Tejas. Even in India, many people
were sceptical about the
success of the fighter project,
which started way back in
1983. In the subsequent 27
years, countless work-hours and ?14,000 crore were spent
on developing it. Justifiably,
people wondered why India
should invest so much on
developing it when fighter
aircraft were available off the shelf in the international
market. Fernandes, with supreme
confidence in Team LCA,
ignored the cable. The
following morning the
homegrown fighter, flown by
Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal, soared into the clear
Bangalore sky. &#8220;He [Fernandes] told us about the letter from
the US only after the first flight
was over, &#8221; recalls Air Marshal (retired) Philip Rajkumar, head
of the LCA flight test
operations at that time and
author of The Tejas Story: The
Light Combat Aircraft Project. But doubting Thomases
sniggered. They said Tejas
&#8220;flew somehow &#8221; and the real test for it would be to fly
frequently and be part of the
Indian Air Force. And exactly a
decade after that historic first
flight, the aircraft is now
combat ready. The scientists at the Aeronautical Development
Agency (ADA), the nodal
agency for developing the
fighter, and the test crew at
the National Flight Test Centre
(NFTC) are confident. &#8220;Missiles, practice bombs and drop tanks
have all been integrated and
tested successfully. It is a very
potent weapon now, &#8217;&#8217; says P.S. Subramanyam, project director
(combat aircraft) and director,
ADA. According to K. Tamilmani,
chief executive, Centre for
Military Airworthiness and
Certification (CEMILAC), the
LCA is ready for Initial
Operational Clearance (IOC). CEMILAC, which is part of the
Defence Research
Development Organisation, is
the certifying agency for all
military aircraft and airborne
systems in India. It goes only by the demonstrated
performance of the aircraft
and systems to certify it. All
major envelope requirements
for the IOC have been
completed and safety aspects proved, says Tamilmani. &#8220;Some small things that still need to
be completed would be done
soon,&#8221; he says. A few parameters like firing
missiles through radar
targeting will be done before
getting the IOC and handing
over the aircraft to the IAF,
which has ordered 40 LCAs. Bangalore-based state-owned
aircraft maker Hindustan
Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will
start rolling out Tejas in the
next few months.
Flying with the IAF would be a major milestone for this multi-
mission tactical fighter capable
of air combat, offensive air
support and other combat
missions. At the flight test
stage, on an average, each aircraft does eight sorties per
month, but in the operational
squadrons, they will be flown
almost every day. &#8220;It is a fully combat-ready aircraft that
encompasses all features that
the IAF wants, &#8217;&#8217; says Group Captain Suneet Krishna of the
NFTC, who has been test flying
the LCA and has been
associated with the project for
10 years (see box). The NFTC
pilots, from the IAF and the Navy, have so far completed
1,500 sorties, testing a number
of parameters or test points. &#8220;Tejas is so agile and so good that it sometimes surprises
you, &#8221; says NFTC Project Director Air Commodore Rohit
Verma. The veteran pilot, who
has flown the Russian MiGs and
French Mirages, is in love with
Tejas.
Like pilots, flight test engineers, too, played an
important role. Sitting at the
hi-tech Telemetry Centre at the
end of the HAL airport &#8217;s runway, they monitor the test
flights. In fact, the test director
always has a better situational
awareness of the aircraft than
its pilot. All through the flight,
the director is in touch with the pilot, while a specialist
monitors the crucial
parameters in the aircraft. Says retired wing commander
P.K. Raveendran, group
director (flight testing), NFTC:
&#8220;Each test flight requires a lot of preparation and analysis.
Soon after the flight there will
be a &#8216;hot debrief&#8217;, the first impression of the flight by the
pilot and test engineers. That
will be followed by &#8216;data debrief&#8217;, where each aspect is discussed in detail so that
corrective action can be taken
in time.&#8221; He has been associated with the project
from 1995 and is heading the
team of &#8220;back room boys and girls&#8221; assisting the project. &#8220;Young boys and girls worked late in the night and would
report to work again by 7 a.m.
That also included a woman,
who had a kid to take care of
at home,&#8221; says former ADA director Dr Kota Harinarayana.
&#8220;When I asked her, she said: &#8216;Sir, my mother-in-law has told me she will take care of the
baby so that I can focus on the
national project.&#8217;&#8221; &#8220;Like any true patriot, I feel happy to be part of this
project,&#8221; says Devadatta Maharana, who integrated the
complex Airborne Separation
Video System that captures the
trajectory of bombs and drop
tanks dropped from the
aircraft. The special cameras mounted on Tejas capture
1,000 frames per second.
Though it sounds simple,
analysing separation of
missiles, bombs or drop tank is
crucial as any slight deviation in separation, at a very high
speed, can prove disastrous for
the aircraft. State-of-the-art technologies
like fly-by-wire, digital flight
control and all composite
structures have made Tejas
technologically superior to
many IAF fighters. &#8220;The LCA is far superior to the upgraded
MiG 21s. It will be as good as
any fourth generation fighter, &#8217;&#8217; says Rajkumar, who has 5,200
flying hours on 75 different
aircraft. It was Rajkumar who
set up the NFTC in 1994.
Says Verma, &#8220;The LCA is a good bedrock for any future
projects. The platform-neutral
technology can be used for
other platforms. After IOC, final
operations clearance (FOC)
would be a bit of challenge for us as we would be going in for
a high angle of attack, more
sensors, more weapons and
big envelope. We will do FOC
by the end of 2012. &#8221; Experts say Tejas is best suited
for short duration missions,
while heavier aircraft like the
Sukhois can fly longer
missions. But Sukhoi costs
around ?240 crore, and an upgraded Jaguar around ?300
crore. Su-30MKI is one of the
most capable flying machines
in the IAF. However, the IAF
cannot afford to have only
those as they are very expensive and the operational
costs are too heavy. The LCA,
which is relatively less
expensive &#8212;it costs around ? 150 crore and, with the
upgrades, can go up to ?200
crore&#8212;will fit into the light class of fighters. The IAF is
acquiring 126 medium multi-
role aircraft for $11 billion to
strengthen its medium class
fleet. So far, a total of ?25,000 crore
has been invested on the LCA
project. &#8220;Of that, around ? 14,000 was for development
and rest of the money for
making 40 aircraft, &#8221; says Subramanyam. &#8220;If we look at 200 aircraft [for the IAF and
the Navy], we will be getting
business worth ?50,000 crore. &#8217;&#8217; Though the project is now on
the right flight path, the going
was tough a few years ago.
&#8220;When we started, 999 out of 1,000 people did not believe
us,&#8221; says Kota, known as the Father of the LCA. Long before
the LCA project was even born,
he had done his Ph.D thesis on
the 'Design of an air superior
fighter for India', at IIT
Bombay. It was to honour Kota's contribution to the
project that his initials 'KH'
were inscribed on the aircraft
that made the maiden flight. Kota and his team were very
cautious in their approach. &#8220;We were willing to accept
criticism on account of delays
rather than putting the project
in danger,&#8221; says Kota. &#8220;We conducted many tests, more
than what are normally done.
The aircraft was ready to fly in
1999, but we took one full year
to test and re-test before
deciding to fly it in 2001. &#8221; An unassuming person, Kota is
now working on the Regional
Transport Aircraft (RTA)
project. Bridging the technology gap,
too, was a huge challenge.
HAL, the only aircraft-maker in
the country, had not done
much after its Marut
programme in the early 60s, and India was two decades
behind developments in
aviation. In aviation, they say,
one needs to keep running to
stay where you are. And India
was not even walking! Next was the difference of
opinion between the IAF and
DRDO. &#8220;The IAF was looking for an aircraft which would be
on the frontline in 15 years or
so,&#8221; says Rajkumar, &#8220;while the aeronautical community felt
that the technological gap had
to be bridged by developing
technologies like fly-by-wire,
composite structures, and
digital avionics. The IAF knew that it would take a long time
to do this.&#8217;&#8217; After sitting on the fence all
through the 80s, the IAF
started supporting the project
in the 90s. The project got a
meaningful funding of ?2,188
crore in 1993. Then came the US sanctions after Pokhran
nuclear tests in 1998. Many
thought it to be the end of the
fighter project as the US firms
GE and Lockheed Martin, which
were helping with engines and avionics, respectively, pulled
out overnight. Says Shyam
Chetty, head of flight
mechanics and control division:
&#8220;When sanctions were imposed, we were in the US
working with Lockheed Martin.
They immediately asked us to
leave the country and did not
even allow us to enter their
campus to collect our equipment and papers. It took
many years to get them back.
Meanwhile, we had to start
from scratch to develop flight
control law (FCL), which was a
very important part of the project. That was a big
challenge.'' To tackle the crisis, then DRDO
head A.P.J. Abdul Kalam
formed national teams to
develop the crucial
technologies within India. &#8220;We took it as a challenge and
worked day and night, &#8221; says Kota. &#8220;We developed all the required systems before the
sanctions were lifted. &#8221; The teams conquered complex
technologies like composite
materials, digital fly-by-wire
system and glass cockpit and
established various testing
facilities. Says National Aerospace Laboratory Director
A.R. Upadhyay: &#8220;In my 18 years of association with the
LCA project, I have become a
better aerospace professional.
Technologies like FCL and
carbon fibre composites
developed at NAL are helping many programmes including
our Saras, a 14-seater aircraft,
and also the RTA project. &#8221; A.K. Sood, RTA project adviser
and former chief designer at
HAL, has the same opinion.
&#8220;The technology and expertise we developed for the LCA
were used for conducting full
aircraft vibration tests on
Sukhoi and for vibration tests
on external stores on Mirage
2000. That reduced our dependency on the foreign
aircraft makers, &#8221; he says. But the ambition to develop a
complex jet engine and equally
difficult Multi-Mode Radar
(MMR) led to delays. Even now,
Tejas flies with a US-made
engine and an Israeli radar. Says Rajkumar: &#8220;It was an absurd managerial decision to
give the task of developing a
jet engine to GTRE [Gas Turbine
Research Establishment] and
radar development to HAL
Hyderabad. They never had any experience of doing such
complex work. The only
organisation that could have
developed the radar was LRDE
[Electronics and Radar
Development Establishment] and the HAL Engine Division in
Bangalore, which had the
experience of developing
engines. Today, with the
benefit of hindsight, we can
say the decisions were wrong, though we cannot blame anyone. &#8221;
The LCA Mark I that is now
ready for IOC will fly with GE
404 IN20 engines while Mark
II, the first flight of which is
likely to be in December 2014,
will fly with the more powerful GE 414 engines. Mark
II will have a retractable fuel
system and will improve on all
deficiencies noticed in the
former. Lack of adequately trained
workforce was also a problem.
Says Rajkumar: &#8220;When the IJT [Intermediate Jet Trainer]
project was taken up by HAL,
the manpower got split. That
had an adverse effect on the
progress of the LCA project. &#8217;&#8217; But a transparent working
system helped the project.
Everyone in the ADA, IAF and
airworthiness teams knew
what the challenges were.
&#8220;The system was so transparent that I used to joke
that the LCA project was like a
cabaret artiste without a G-
string. It was totally
transparent. There was
nothing hidden,&#8217;&#8217; says Kota, with a hearty laugh. Looking back at the long
development period, Wing
Comander Ajey Lele of
Institute of Defence Studies
and Analyses (IDSA), New
Delhi, says: &#8220;It was possible to complete the project a little
earlier, but one must
understand that developing
aircraft is not a simple job. The
criticism was very harsh, as if
we were manufacturing something like a mobile
phone.&#8217;&#8217; Fighter development projects
take a lot of time. The
development of European
fighters took 25 years and the
F22 Raptor of the US was a
Cold War era project. &#8220;If it took over two decades for the US to
develop the F22, India, too,
will take time, &#8217;&#8217; Lele says. The process of developing a
fighter helped private industry
as well. Says Ashok Saxena,
MD, Navvavia Technologies
Private Limited: &#8220;Small and medium enterprises played a
major role in the production of
test equipment and
components. Those companies
are now getting business from
many foreign firms looking for good quality, low-cost
outsourcing for their own
programmes.&#8221; Saxena was managing director of HAL
Bangalore Complex and was
closely associated with the LCA
project. HAL will find it a challenge to
meet production requirements.
It will have to produce around
200 LCAs for the IAF and the
Navy in the coming years. As
of now, it is capable of making only eight aircraft a year and is
planning to increase the
capacity to 12. Which means, it
requires nearly 18 years to
make 200 fighters. Neither the
IAF nor the Navy can wait that long.


----------



## sathya

BENNY said:


> *Cost To Develop Tejas Mk-2: $542-million​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the development of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme will be sanctioned $542.44-million (Rs 2431.55-crore) to develop the Tejas Mk-2, making up Phase-III of the programme's full scale engineering development (FSED). Also, the deadline for final operational clearance for the Tejas Mk-1 is December 2012.
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Cost To Develop Tejas Mk-2: $542-million



i wish LCA mk2 makes early flight test..


----------



## GareebNawaz

hope there is a new design for this bird.


----------



## alam.saquiba

452 mil USD is dammn cheap ............... I wonder how can India can develop such a world class fighter (MK II may include AESA , high TWR, Low frontal RCS and many more) 

I heard somewhere that Isarel invested 7 billion Dollar and china further invested few more on the LAVI...


Good JOB Indian ...


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## angeldemon_007

@ kapoor
Very great story of an Indian success....
Only discouraging part in the article was the ending....


> It will have to produce around
> 200 LCAs for the IAF and the
> Navy in the coming years. As
> of now, it is capable of making only eight aircraft a year and is
> planning to increase the
> capacity to 12. Which means, it
> requires nearly 18 years to
> make 200 fighters. Neither the
> IAF nor the Navy can wait that long.


Lets hope we can solve this problem as it would increase the cost of production.


----------



## alam.saquiba

> this part worth reading


After a long delay, the LCA is ready. How does it feel?
Everyone talks about the delays. It is not correct to say that the programme started in 1983, when the government first thought of working on a combat aircraft. They decided to put Rs:560 crore seed money for preparing the project definition, but there was no clarity. Even the air staff requirement (ASR) [standards for the engine] came only in 1985. In 1987-88, the project definition was prepared and the proposal to make prototypes was submitted. The government said they cannot take a risk with that kind of money and they split the programme into two parts; technology demonstration (TD) programme and proto-vehicle development project. In 1993, they gave Rs:2,199 crore for the TD. So, the actual programme started only in 1993. 
In fact, clarity came only in 2004-05. In 2001, we flew the first aircraft and in 2004, we did the TD for the government, after which they released ?3,320 crore. The first proto vehicle (PV1) came out in December 2005. The IAF got confidence in the programme and gave the standard of preparation of fighter aircraft. So, the fillip came in 2005. From then on, the programme has been progressing rapidly, especially after Defence Minister A.K. Antony tilted the balance in favour of the LCA by publicly stating that the government would support the project, irrespective of any developments. 

P.S. SUBRAMANYAM, PROJECT DIRECTOR (COMBAT AIRCRAFT) AND DIRECTOR, ADA


----------



## alam.saquiba

> BVR is not yet added...





> After the IOC, the next challenge would be the Final Operations Clearance?
> Yes, FOC is the next major thing. But we do not see any problem in that. Beyond Visual Range missiles, some other weapons have to be integrated. That will be done by 2012.


 

---------- Post added at 08:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 AM ----------




> future plan


What after the LCA project?
The IAF is saying &#8216;Let us make a fifth generation aircraft, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft&#8217;. The seed money has been given, and the IAF is working very closely with us to evolve the specifications so that the programme can start. Also, the Unmanned Aerial Combat Aircraft programme is coming up and money has already been given. That is a little more advanced than the AMCA because of its stealth characteristics.


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Says Rajkumar: &#8220;It was an absurd managerial decision to give the task of developing a jet engine to GTRE [Gas Turbine Research Establishment] and radar development to HAL Hyderabad. They never had any experience of doing such complex work. The only organisation that could have developed the radar was LRDE [Electronics and Radar Development Establishment] and the HAL Engine Division in Bangalore, which had the experience of developing engines. Today, with the benefit of hindsight, we can say the decisions were wrong, though we cannot blame anyone. &#8221;


I remember the similar kind of manegerial mistakes which we will commit in an upcoming project *Project 17A*.
In this we will be developing 7 stealth frigates. This requires modular construction technique in which our shipyards had no experience but still they insisted on developing ships on their own. 

Earlier IN was insisting that 2 ships should be developed in the foreign shipyard of the Company who is selected for this project, so that our shipyard can learn this technique first.

But the shipyards were so overconfident that they told MOD that they can develop all the ships in their shipyards. MOD accepted the shipyards idea. These shipyards are GRSE of Kolkatta which has very less experience and MDL which has proved themselves in delaying every project they will undertake. 

I can only see things like delays, cost escalation and then in the end the shipyards will tell every1 that the delays where actually because the technique was too difficult to master....
God help us...



> The IAF is saying &#8216;Let us make a fifth generation aircraft, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft&#8217;. The seed money has been given, and the IAF is working very closely with us to evolve the specifications so that the programme can start. Also, the Unmanned Aerial Combat Aircraft programme is coming up and money has already been given. That is a little more advanced than the AMCA because of its stealth characteristics.


There is nothing wrong in imagining.....but this looks more like over-confidence...
Announcing about AMCA in public, when govt. has only sanctioned the money for feasibility studies. They are claiming that govt. will sanction 2 billion $ once the project will be approved. But who will tell them that the first thing is the project should be approved.
That AURA on is much funny project. ADA has a heading of AURA on their website but when click there is nothing(there is nothing on AMCA also). These guys have done nothing but just named the project and they are announcing everywhere that we are building a UCAV. Its clear these idiots have become more prone to media attention rather than work.
I mean, in every country, the companies or organisation first develop the design and a prototype before and then it is decided by the govt. whether to go for the project or not. Let me assure you the same will happen here, but our ADA, DRDO and HAL are so confident that they are announcing everywhere about this... FOOLS.


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## marcos98

TEJAS FIRNG R-73

edit: watch it on
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/test.html

friggin awesome video.......

i luv tejas......

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Ammyy

marcos98 said:


> TEJAS FIRNG R-73
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=
> edit: watch it on
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Happy New Year: Takeoff 2011 with Tejas' fireworks! Countdown for IOC begins & ADA says 'all set for Jan 10'
> 
> friggin awesome video.......
> 
> i luv tejas......



Link is not working


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## jha

*Month Before IOC, MoD's Tejas Update In Parliament*





*One permanent fixture in all reports by the Indian Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence is the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) programme. And exactly month before the programme achieves initial operational clearance on January 10, the panel's latest report was released, containing the following updated account of the Tejas programme so far. Much of it is the same, but with the level of interest in the programme, especially now, there are several new bits scattered around this update. Here it is in full:*

The programme of indigenous development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) had been initiated in August&#8223; 1983 with the Government sanction of an interim development cost of Rs 560.00 Cr. This sanction was to initiate the programme and carry out Project Definition Phase (PDP). After completing the PDP, the report was submitted to Government and proposal to build 07 prototypes was made. The Government of India split the programme into Technical Development Phase and Operational Vehicle Development Phase. The Full Scale Engineering Development Programme Phase-I (LCA FSED Phase-I) was sanctioned in April&#8223;1993 at a cost of Rs 2188 Cr (including the interim sanction of Rs 560 Cr given in 1983). The scope of FSED Phase-I was to demonstrate the technologies so that a decision could be taken to build operational proto-vehicles at a later stage. LCA FSED Phase-I was completed on 31 Mar 2004. While Phase-I programme was in progress, the Government decided to concurrently go ahead with the build of operational proto vehicles. The scope of FSED Phase-2 was to build three prototypes of operational aircrafts including a trainer and also to build the infrastructure required for producing 08 aircrafts per year and build eight Limited Series Production (LSP) aircrafts. Government sanctioned FSED Phase-II of the programme at a total cost of Rs 3301.78 Cr on 20 Nov&#8223;2001. The Phase-II programme has been split into two phases namely, Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC). Standard of
preparation of operational aircraft was finalized in 2004 with changes in weapons, sensors and avionics to meet the IAF requirements and overcome obsolescence. (Original design was made in 1990s). This contributes to additional time and revised cost for Phase-II.

Governing body of ADA in its 41st meeting held on 22 Nov 2007 had detail review of the Programme and deliberated on achievements vis-à-vis objectives of LCA FSED Phase-II programme and recommended the extension of FSED Phase-II likely date of completion till 31 Dec 2012 (IOC by Dec 2010 & FOC by Dec 2012) with GE-F404-IN20 Engine and to develop & productionise the Mark 2 variant of Tejas aircraft and also recommended the constitution of Cost Revision Committee to assess additional requirement of funds. The need for extension of PDC for LCA FSED Phase-II was due to:

(a) Complexity of the system desgn and very high safety standards lead to extensive testing to ensure flight safety.

(b) Incorporating the configuration changes (for example R60 close Combat Missile (CCM) was replaced by R73E CCM which required design modifications) to keep the aircraft contemporary|

(c) Due to non-availability of indigenous Kaveri Engine&#8223; design changes were carried out to accommodate GE404 engine of USA.

(d) Change in the development strategy of Radar and associated changes on the aircraft.

(e) Major development activity of Avionics was undertaken in order to make aircraft contemporary, which took time but yielded results (for example, development of obsolescence free open architecture avionics system).

(f) US sanctions imposed in 1998 also led to delay in importing certain items and developing alternate equipment, since vendors identification and development to production cycle took time.

The need for revision of FSED Phase-II fund sanction was mainly due to:

(a) To neutralize the effect of inflation/delivery point cost against the sanctioned level at 2001 and the increase in manpower cost of HAL.

(b) To meet the programme management expenditure due to extended time line till Dec 2012

(c) Maintain and operate 10-15 aircraft for four years upto 2012

(d) To maintain & upgrade the design, development and test facilities upto 2012, in keeping with modern technology

(e) To complete the activities which were not costed in the original estimates.

Cost Revision Committee after careful consideration of the projections made and taking into account the increase in the cost of material, manpower, additional activities to complete the IOC & FOC, maintenance of facilities and expanded scope of the programme etc., recommended additional fund of Rs 2475.78 Cr for completing FSED Phase-II activities with PDC Dec 2012, Rs 2431.55 Cr for developing Tejas Mark 2 with alternate engine (LCA FSED Phase-III Programme) and Rs 395.65 Cr for Technology Development Programme (Total additional funds of Rs 5302.98 Cr). Recommendations of the Cost Revision Committee was accepted by Government and in November 2009, sanction was accorded for continuing Full Scale Engineering Development of LCA till Dec 2018 with an additional cost of Rs 5302.98 Cr.

LCA (Tejas) Programme is progressing satisfactorily as per schedule mutually agreed with IAF to meet their requirements. Flight Test phase on nine Tejas aircrafts to obtain IOC for Tejas, which is mandatory for induction of Tejas into IAF is in advanced stage. Establishment of Tejas production facilities for the production rate of eight aircrafts per annum is progressing concurrently with development activities. On 31 Mar 2006, IAF has executed the contract with HAL for production of 20 Tejas aircraft (series production) powered by GE-F404-IN20 engines in IOC configuration and production activities are in progress. Follow on order of another 20 aircraft is in an advanced stage of negotiation between IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The issue of Kaveri engine has been delinked temporarily from Tejas Production Programme and use of Kaveri engine on Tejas will be considered after successful completion of mandatory development tests on engine. Initial batch of Tejas production aircraft (Tejas Mk-1) will be integrated with GE-F404-IN20 engines and will be inducted into IAF progressively from Jan 2011 onwards. Development of Tejas Mk-2 with alternate imported foreign engine (LCA FSED Phase-III) to improve aircraft performance has been launched concurrently with LCA FSED Phase-II programme.

In addition to the weekly reviews conducted at ADA and the Governing Body & Annual General Body Meetings, the Honourable Raksha Mantri has set up Special Review Committees with the Chief of Air Staff reviewing the programme once every quarter and Deputy Chief of Air Staff reviewing every month to ensure that the objectives of Tejas Programme are achieved without any further cost and time overrun.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Month Before IOC, MoD's Tejas Update In Parliament


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## newman

Snippets of the party in Goa

YouTube - Tejas fires R-73

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

Are there any videos from the bomb, or fuel tank releases?




alam.saquiba said:


> What after the LCA project?
> The IAF is saying &#8216;Let us make a fifth generation aircraft, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft&#8217;. The seed money has been given, and the IAF is working very closely with us to evolve the specifications so that the programme can start. Also, the Unmanned Aerial Combat Aircraft programme is coming up and money has already been given. That is a little more advanced than the AMCA because of its stealth characteristics.



What happen to the plans to develop unmanned versions of LCA? 
It would better to gain from the experience of LCA MK1 / 2 development and further improve it to an unmanned MK3 version. We could combine it even with the AURA UCAV development to get a cost-effective interceptor and strike fighter, instead adding just another new manned fighter type with AMCA (we will already have LCA, MMRCA, MKI and FGFA).
Unmanned aircrafts are the future and could be build for less costs in higher numbers, which is an important point for us, when we have to counter the numerical advantage of PLAAF.


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## Archie

sancho said:


> Are there any videos from the bomb, or fuel tank releases?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happen to the plans to develop unmanned versions of LCA?
> It would better to gain from the experience of LCA MK1 / 2 development and further improve it to an unmanned MK3 version. We could combine it even with the AURA UCAV development to get a cost-effective interceptor and strike fighter, instead adding just another new manned fighter type with AMCA (we will already have LCA, MMRCA, MKI and FGFA).
> Unmanned aircrafts are the future and could be build for less costs in higher numbers, which is an important point for us, when we have to counter the numerical advantage of PLAAF.



Lets not get too much into the future,
Like i said current Tejas number for IAF and navy stands at 140-148 Aircraft in total ie 126 aircraft for Airforce and 22 for navy
This number was only orderd becoz MOD had guaranteed HAL that number , the IAF-navy accepted this order becoz Tejas though not something which they want, is still far more capable than the 270 odd Mig21/27 currently in service
For IAF to give a follow on order , HAL will have to build an MK3 variant which should be classified as a good aircraft in 2025 , considering the fact that fighters like Mig29 , Mirage 2000 , Su27/30 , F16 , F/A18 , will seize to be classified as advance fighters by 2025

Also looking at the fact that LCA MK2 will have Aesa Radar ,LCA MK3 SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING MORE TO ATTRACT IAF ATTENTION
According to me it should have something like the following
3D Thrust vectoring , Better Aesa Radar and Avionics than Mk2 , higher payload at 5000+ KG , 10 Hard Points , RCS <= 1 ,


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## Archie

*It would better to gain from the experience of LCA MK1 / 2 development and further improve it to an unmanned MK3 version. We could combine it even with the AURA UCAV development to get a cost-effective interceptor *

Whatever u say MK3 would not be unmanned aircraft , Do u know how much difficult it is to built UCAV that too one with supersonic speed and stealth something like X47B being build by USAF is also suffering delays so how can you assume that IAF will develop an unmanned Tejas 
Its like some of the fan boys saying that they can develop a JF17XX stealth fighter
It is better that first we develop something like Predator before moving into unmanned territory 
Even USAF hopes to field 6th gen fighter by 2040


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## sancho

Archie said:


> For IAF to give a follow on order , HAL will have to build an MK3 variant which should be classified as a good aircraft in 2025 , considering the fact that fighters like Mig29 , Mirage 2000 , Su27/30 , F16 , F/A18 , will seize to be classified as advance fighters by 2025



It has not only to do with follow on orders, but also with the future potential of LCA! They are planed for a life cycle of 30 - 40 years and the development can't stop after MK2 is in service.
The next logical upgrade after MK2 are comparable changes that we see at F15SE, or the new F18SH upgrade. Which means, CFTs with internal weapon bays, or stealthy weapon pods, angled aiframe shapings for lower RCS...
LCA must be deadly way beyond 2020 even if it's not the most capable fighter in the fleet!

Consider the LCA MK3 with new airframe shapings, upgraded Kaveri - Snecma engine, similar wing missiles bays of Pak Fa / FGFA for SR missiles and a fuselage that can at least house 2 BVR missiles, which gives it enough fire power for it primery role, interception. 

Are these changes more difficult then developing a complete new 5. gen AMCA?
And when we already start development of the AURA UCAV, why can't we use the same systems for an unmanned LCA version too? 

I said it often before, developing an 5. gen fighter alone is totally out of reach for us at the moment, a stealthy UCAV will also be very difficult, but that's why it makes more sense, to base it on further upgrades of LCA, instead of 2 completely new 5. gen developments.


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## Archie

Sancho , this is what i said 
*also looking at the fact that LCA MK2 will have Aesa Radar ,LCA MK3 SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING MORE TO ATTRACT IAF ATTENTION
According to me it should have something like the following
3D Thrust vectoring , Better Aesa Radar and Avionics than Mk2 , higher payload at 5000+ KG , 10 Hard Points , RCS <= 1 , *

Apart from the above , having CFT to increase the range beyond the current 2000 Km , add to that Internal weapon bay to house 2 BVR missiles ,and upgrades to airframe to reduce RCS below 1
I think we should take some inspiration from Typhoon , If u look at it ,then Eurofighter Typhoon has an RCS of less than 1 in clean Configuration


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## sancho

Archie said:


> Sancho , this is what i said
> *also looking at the fact that LCA MK2 will have Aesa Radar ,LCA MK3 SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING MORE TO ATTRACT IAF ATTENTION
> According to me it should have something like the following
> 3D Thrust vectoring , Better Aesa Radar and Avionics than Mk2 , higher payload at 5000+ KG , 10 Hard Points , RCS <= 1 , *
> 
> Apart from the above , having CFT to increase the range beyond the current 2000 Km , add to that Internal weapon bay to house 2 BVR missiles ,and upgrades to airframe to reduce RCS below 1
> I think we should take some inspiration from Typhoon , If u look at it ,then Eurofighter Typhoon has an RCS of less than 1 in clean Configuration



First of all, I would expect the RCS of LCA in clean below 1 even now. Very small size, with a low profile, high ammount of composites, which means more RAM coatings can be added as well, ducted air intake..., and F16 B52 is often quoted at 1.2m² in clean. Most of the points you make will most likely added with MK2 and upgrades of radar and avionics are not a big deal. That's why I said, the next upgrade should aim more on stealth features, or shapings and probably on unmanned control.
Btw, I am not talking about making LCA to a real muti role stealth fighter, because I doubt that it will have the capacity to carry larger loads internally. But that is not important anyway, if we have FGFA and AURA UCAV, the important role for LCA will always be the interception role and that's why carrying at least 4 AAMs internally would be enough and would give it a very low RCS, because of no external loads.


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## ganimi kawa

From Tarmak007 blog.

10 YEARS OF LCA : The Forgotten Heroes!









The man who flew LCA first Rajiv Kothiyal and the man who shaped the project and led it from the front for 17 years Dr Kota Harinaraya hold a metallic model of Tejas to mark the 10th anniversary of Tejas' first flight that falls on January 4, 2001. The Tejas duo, obliged a request from Tarmak007, for a quiet sit-down-chat to remember India's dream machine -- Tejas.


Dr Kota Harinarayana &#8211;- revered as the Father of India&#8217;s LCA program.

*1.Antony played a key role in backing 2 projects:* 

*All said and done, Mr Antony has to be given the credit for pushing LCA and Arjun programs. *

He did it in a very subtle way because there was stiff opposition to both these national projects from within. But, he stood his ground and convinced everyone that we shall overcome all the hurdles. And, we did it. *Additional orders for Arjun MBT after it outperformed the Russian T-90*. And, now IOC for Tejas. 


*2.Tejas will become more Indian soon:* 

Today, engine, the INS and portions of radar are imported. The rest are all coming out of India &#8211; a result of our scientific and technological might. *I am sure in near future, barring engine, everything else will be Indian.*


*3.The role of academics & industries:* If the defense industry has to grow, then we must first have a mindset that we will buy only from India. This would give tremendous confidence to our industries. Today, the industry is showing great sparks and it must be fanned into a huge flame. 

Academic institutions should be part of every new project. They would give us new ideas and they are our strength.


*4.Ratan Tata saved the Tejas program:* 

I give a lot of credit to Mr Ratan Tata for the Tejas program. Not many know this story. To me, he was one among the few who saved this national project from closure. In 1990-91, I attended a LCA program review meeting in Delhi. Prior to this meeting, a high-level committee involving MPs had visited the facilities in Bangalore to see what progress we had made. I knew that the agenda of the meeting was to close the program. While some appreciated our work and commitment, they wanted it to be shut.* But, Mr Ratan Tata completely backed us and said: &#8220;It will be a shame if the project is closed. I have seen the technology and I am convinced that the project will definitely see the light of the day.* I want private industries to come up and play an active role in the Tejas program.&#8221; The rest is history.


*5.We were a minority chasing a dream: * 

I must admit that 99/100 believed that LCA was a thrash and the aircraft will never come. Today, I am happy that we are about to enter a historic phase with IOC in sight. 



*6.We made LCA for the pilots:*

We made the LCA for the Nation. But, we also made LCA for the pilots.* For me, pilots are the real heroes. It is their lives we are putting into risk and hence the product has to be world-class.* Rajiv Kothiyal is a great pilot. I have seen his commitment. Today, a dozen pilots have come after him and I am not undermining their contribution to the program. But, the first man is always special. In Koti&#8217;s case, I can say he literally risked his life. We would have flown LCA in 1999 or 2000, but kept on conducting various tests and high-speed trials again and again. Even, I was asked by many why we are not going for the first flight. Finally, after extensive flight trials, we had the maiden flight on January 4, 2001. George Fernandez was the Defense Minister then, and he told me the moment, Tejas took-off: &#8220;Kota, you might be a happy man now?&#8221; I replied: &#8220;No Sir. Not yet. I will be happy only when Koti lands.&#8221;



7.Navy backed us to the hilt from Day 1: 
*Indian Navy supported the project steadfast from Day-1. We don&#8217;t have any doubt about their commitment.* 


*8.The future of Tejas will be linked to its quality:* 

The aircraft must be produced to high quality standards. The future of Tejas will be directly linked to the high production standards being put in place by the agency involved. Absolute need to bring in product improvement block by block and the tooling plan must be for 20 aircraft per year. My real worry is that* unless we produce the aircraft, we cannot make the project a success.*




*I don&#8217;t want them to remember me&#8230; Let people remember the good work we did. Let them hail the team. I don&#8217;t want anyone to remember me. I created a team, who believed in themselves and actually delivered the result. We created a team that not only made LCA, but also many future programs. Remember, I had to work with a group of people (not from my team), who believed I can&#8217;t deliver.
I have achieved nothing in life&#8230; but only Tejas: Dear&#8230; (as he would call everyone), we are all forgotten now (looking at Koti). May be, we have achieved nothing in life, but only Tejas! But I am happy that Tejas is getting IOC, finally. It is a historic day. Okay dear. When will I see what you write?*


Salute to the great man!

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## Kompromat

When LCA is expected to finally start mass production and formal operational induction in the IAF?


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## satishkumarcsc

Black Blood said:


> When LCA is expected to finally start mass production and formal operational induction in the IAF?



THe series production on MK 1 will start after the delivery of LSP 8. The LSP 6 is going to be used for experimental purposes. The Series Production will be based on the LSP 5. Alll the LSP aircrafts will be delivered my march/April 2011. Series production will start at that time. After the delivery of 20 aircraft this year and 20 next year the FOC will be given in 2012 end.

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## Hulk

Indeed great commitment by these men. Once you make the first, rest is easier.


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## ganimi kawa

Wg Cdr Rajiv Kothiyal,the first man who flew LCA. 





> *I flew without a telemetry link during my maiden flight
> 
> I can&#8217;t forget that day. The ground telemetry had failed the moment I took-off. I was in touch with the ground station only via radio. Those at the ground telemetry, especially manning the flight control systems, avionics, and hydraulics had blank terminals in front of them till I landed.
> 
> &#8220;The telemetry link is broken,&#8221; I was told via radio. &#8220;Great!&#8221; I replied. I had to be extra alert while flying now. That made the maiden flight more memorable even today, as I had to fly without a telemetry link. There was some frequency interference from a nearby IT firm, which was sorted out during the subsequent flights.
> 
> When I received the prestigious Iven C. Kincheloe Award for the Best Test Pilot of the Year 2001, they had also taken this point into consideration. (Incidentally, Kothiyal is the only Test Pilot in India to win this award &#8211; often described as the Oscar for Test Pilots. He has in his company, the legendary Neil Armstrong.) January 4 will be always an emotional moment for me. It&#8217;s 10 years, now. Tejas is a great aircraft. Well, they say time flies. And for pilots like me, destination too matters, as much as the paths we crossed. I have to reach the airport by 4.30 pm and I am flying the Delhi sector today. Convey my regards to Tejas team. When is the IOC? On Jan. 10th you said, right? Cheers!*







On a side note, as Mr. Krishnan from Tarmak pointed out, *today is the anniversary of LCA's first flight,* here are few pics and a video to commemorate that. (Source- Tarmak and youtube)




















I got goosebumps watching this video!









Black Blood said:


> When LCA is expected to finally start mass production and formal operational induction in the IAF?



*January 10.*

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## AMCA

Defence Minister A.K. Antony on Tuesday said a deal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) would be signed with due diligence.

Before a deal is signed, a lot of procedures have to be completed. The utmost care is exercised at each stage of finalising the contract. We will not do anything in a jiffy, he told journalists after unveiling a plaque to mark the laying of the foundation stone here for the National Institute for Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding (NIRDESH) under the Department of Defence Production.

Mr. Antony said the reported missing and recovery of a secret file on MMRCA was being investigated. ( Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian aircraft MiG-35, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter, French Rafale, and Swedish SAAB's Gripen competed in the MMRCA field trials conducted by the Air Force.)

On indigenisation and self-reliance in defence, the Minister said the Defence Production Policy and Defence Procurement Policy, to be released soon, would place extra emphasis on indigenisation.

Currently, we are nowhere near attaining self-reliance. The NIRDESH is set up as a top-notch centre of excellence in the design and development of as many naval equipment and platforms as are possible within the country. We [the Defence Ministry] prefer procuring available equipment and materials made within the country, even from the private sector. But as of now import is inevitable.

Sea pirates

Asked about his recent statement that sea pirates received support from other elements, Mr. Antony said they would not have been in a position to launch orchestrated strikes without the backing of other forces.

Were these elements terrorists? Not only terrorists, they have assistance from some other forces as well. This is what many other countries also think, he said.

On the indigenously developed MBT (Main Battle Tank) Arjun and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Mr. Antony said these grand projects had made it to the realm of reality now. *LCA will get its initial operational clearance on January 10.*

On the recent deal India signed with Russia for joint development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, Mr. Antony said the contract was for a preliminary design. Given the circumstances, we require a fifth generation fighter. Only they [the Russians] were ready to give us the technology.

Mr. Antony said all coastal States had been asked to provide adequate berthing facility to the Cost Guard.

Earlier, speaking at the foundation stone laying ceremony, the Minister said coastal security was a grave issue demanding urgent attention. It has become an important agenda for the country. This is why the Navy and the Coast Guard have begun maintaining extra vigil along the coast. Kerala Industries Minister Elamaram Kareem presided. Gyanesh Kumar, Joint Secretary (Naval Systems) and founding Director-General of NIRDESH, introduced the mission and goal of the institute, to be funded jointly by the Centre and defence shipyards.

Kerala Ministers K.P. Rajendran and Binoy Viswam, Opposition leader Oommen Chandy, Union Minister of State for Home Mullapally Ramachandran, Minister of State for Railways E. Ahamed; M.K. Raghavan, MP; and Defence Production Secretary Raj Kumar Singh spoke.

Senior Navy and Coast Guard officers and chairmen and managing directors of defence shipyards attended the function.

The Hindu : States / Kerala : Indigenisation in focus: Antony

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## ajtr

DRDO to tareekh pe tareekh aise deta hai jaise court tareekh pe tareekh dete hain.


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## AMCA

ajtr said:


> DRDO to tareekh pe tareekh aise deta hai jaise court tareekh pe tareekh dete hain.



DRDO dosent give tareekh pe tareekh atleast in this project, But ADA (NFTC) does , Atleast you should know this Before pretending to be an Indian.... Well better luck next time.... Pata nahi kahan se a jate hain...

Anyways This is just a Cut out news from a Big moment that India has set up its own institute for Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding ....

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## ajtr

YA there are always big claims with nothing to show.


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## AMCA

ajtr said:


> YA there are always big claims with nothing to show.



Well the products they make are no mere Showpiece , You are trying your best buddy, keep going....


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## ajtr

AMCA said:


> Well the products they make are no mere Showpiece , You are trying your best buddy, keep going....


Well sure they cant be a showpiece coz there is nothing to show except for the pics of the missles bursting in mid air etc.


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## GORKHALI

AMCA said:


> Well the products they make are no mere Showpiece , You are trying your best buddy, keep going....



arey yaar!just put him in ignore list na!he's not even worthwhile to reply.

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## AMCA

World seems so serene when some obvious trollers are on your ignore list.... Ajtr joined in ...

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## AMCA

And We are really thankful to The Russians as according to him... 

*&#8220;Given the circumstances, we require a fifth generation fighter. Only they [the Russians] were ready to give us the technology.&#8221;*

Russians have really supported Our thirst to Get hands On Cutting edge technologies which would promote Indigenization in the country


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## Insane

I hate posters who reply to a troll again and again.

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## KS

Why is the date on the thread title Dec 10 ??


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## ganimi kawa

AMCA said:


> *World seems so serene when some obvious trollers are on your ignore list.... Ajtr joined in ...*




Lakh pate ki baat boli hai, bhai!

This could be a very good signature line!


@ Ajtr, 

Still waiting for your reply on Arjun thread. You vanished from there!

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## AMCA

Karthic Sri said:


> Why is the date on the thread title Dec 10 ??



Well, Sorry... Mods please edit it.... I was preparing my project report which is to be submitted on feb 10 and the previous IOC date was on December, so I might have Cross linked it...lol...

Mods please change it to Jan 10.... But I guess I have written Jan 10 not dec 10....


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## shuntmaster

ajtr said:


> YA there are always big claims with nothing to show.



Its difficult to see when u have your head in your a$$.


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## SpArK

*LCA Tejas Retrospective Part I​*
















I will be in Bangalore on January 10 to cover the declaration of initial operational clearance on the LCA Tejas. In the run-up, am hoping to put out as many archival photos of the programme as I possibly can find in my archives, sourced from ADA, NAL, DRDO and HAL.-Shiv aroor.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PHOTOS: LCA Tejas Retrospective Part I

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *LCA Tejas Retrospective Part I​*




Interesting, are these canards above the intakes?​


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## AMCA

sancho said:


> Interesting, are these canards above the intakes?



*I too was Amazed, Have a look at these.... LCA with Canards wind tunnel model...
*









​


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## sancho

AMCA said:


> *I too was Amazed, Have a look at these.... LCA with Canards wind tunnel model...*


*

I know these windtunnel models, but they are not really LCA models, but (at least the left one) pre designs offered to us. The picture in the livefist article instead, uses a scale model of the LCA design and those canards seems to be fitted later and seems to be fixed, not movable.
Maybe to mesure the difference of frontal RCS with and without canards on the LCA.*


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## GangLeader

ajtr said:


> YA there are always big claims with nothing to show.



If making big claims so easy then why not you try it???

Are you afraid even to make just a claim...

Remember, people who have matter will make claims... if you don't like it then close your eyes, ears and of course your mouth too...


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## kingdurgaking

AMCA said:


> *I too was Amazed, Have a look at these.... LCA with Canards wind tunnel model...
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



This one looks like Rafale in this view..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> This one looks like Rafale in this view..



Check this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1227415-post104.html


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## AAD_PAD_PDV

*The thread title is wrong. It should be Jan 10th. *


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## timba

Read this weeks " week" magazine..Their main article is about LCA tejas


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## timba

Manorama Online | Home

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## timba

Manorama Online | Home

Read this weeks "week " magazine..The cover story is about LCA..


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## timba

The writer of that article states that if only the MMR development task was given to LRDE [which has experience in radar building] instead of HAL unit hyderabad and KAVERI engine development given to HAL engine division bangalore instead of GTRE then LCA would not have suffered from these many delays..


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## somebozo

> Given the circumstances, we require a fifth generation fighter. Only they [the Russians] were ready to give us the technology.



It means that the great India love for USA has only resulted in US dumping their obsolete 4 and 4.5 gen stuff into India?


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## majesticpankaj

somebozo said:


> It means that the great India love for USA has only resulted in US dumping their obsolete 4 and 4.5 gen stuff into India?


yes..they are offering us only super hornet and out dated f16 blk 60...lol at your ignorance..

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## AAD_PAD_PDV

somebozo said:


> It means that the great India love for USA has only resulted in US dumping their obsolete 4 and 4.5 gen stuff into India?




When India bought US fighter?
Didn't India sent RFI for F-35?
How 4th and 4.5th generation fighters are obsolete?
US offered F-16IN and F-18 Super Hornet Block2, are they obsolete?
What about Pakistani fighters? 
When we loved USA? They don't have a foothold inside India. 



Can I expect any answer?


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## majesticpankaj

AAD_PAD_PDV said:


> When India bought US fighter?
> Didn't India sent RFI for F-35?
> How 4th and 4.5th generation fighters are obsolete?
> US offered F-16IN and F-18 Super Hornet Block2, are the obsolete?
> What about Pakistani fighters than?
> When we loved USA? They don't have a foothold inside India.
> 
> 
> 
> Can I expect any answer?


mate...this somebozo guy is trolling in each and every thread ..don't worry

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## Dash

somebozo said:


> It means that the great India love for USA has only resulted in US dumping their obsolete 4 and 4.5 gen stuff into India?


What are they dumping to you? Did u check that?, and what abt your best friend??


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## tallboy123

4 days to go


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## Ammyy

........................


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## SpArK

DRDO said:


> ........................



Why scan?/

Go read ..

The Week


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## sancho

timba said:


> Manorama Online | Home




That's a really interesting article and the part about radar and engine development you mentioned, once again shows, that the whole development suffered from bad planing:



> But the ambition to develop a complex jet engine and equally difficult Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) led to delays. Even now, Tejas flies with a US-made engine and an Israeli radar.
> Says Rajkumar: It was an absurd managerial decision to give the task of developing a jet engine to GTRE [Gas Turbine Research Establishment] and radar development to HAL Hyderabad. *They never had any experience of doing such complex work.* The only organisation *that could have developed* the radar was LRDE [Electronics and Radar Development Establishment] and the HAL Engine Division in Bangalore, which had the experience of developing engines. Today, with the benefit of hindsight, we can say the decisions were wrong, *though we cannot blame anyone.*



As I often said, we didn't had the experience and know how to develop a radar and engine on our own, HAL had experience in licence production of foreign engine, but if I'm not wrong, they never developed an own engine as well. That's why we had to chose other engine, or radars as a stop gap and get co-development partners from the start, just like other countries did it as well.
I disagree with the author, because we must blame somebody for this bad planing and management, to learn from it and make it better the next time. Ignoring them because of pride that LCA now is close to IOC won't help and we already can see the same mistakes again at AMCA.


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## angeldemon_007

*@ AMCA*
Is it possible these designs are for LCA mkII ?//
*@ sancho*
Is it like, that nobody reads what i write, unless its a reply to someone ??/ 
Has anybody checked what i wrote on the previous page ?//


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## AMCA

angeldemon_007 said:


> *@ AMCA*
> Is it possible these designs are for LCA mkII ?//



Well No, those were the early designs With a Traditional Delta Wing and Canards to Increase the maneuverability but the RCS of the Aircraft Increases too, hence they Designed a Cranked delta Wing along With a Complimentary fuselage To Increase its Super maneuverability Without Increasing the RCS of the Aircraft, Besides we have a Potent Jammer


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## doctor_who

after reading the speedat which news are comign from china about j-20,

lca sound like a junk box, because thats where it will be needed if the requirment arise.

even with low quality chinese engg. lca sound like ages behind Chinese force.

it got so delayed that , the real charm is all gone , now its just fan boy fantasy for home country thats making em all celebrate.


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## AMCA

doctor_who said:


> after reading the speedat which news are comign from china about j-20,
> 
> lca sound like a junk box, because thats where it will be needed if the requirment arise.
> 
> even with low quality chinese engg. lca sound like ages behind Chinese force.
> 
> it got so delayed that , the real charm is all gone , now its just fan boy fantasy for home country thats making em all celebrate.



Clap Clap!!! Wake Up..... Its Just a Prototype... FGFA is Coming our way too.... So dont worry, Concnetrate on Indigenous technologies, Implement on LCA , Do you know for ALH Dhruv took 10 years while the LCH only took 4.... The first project is always tough and a challenge


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## luckyyy

doctor_who said:


> after reading the speedat which news are comign from china about j-20,
> 
> lca sound like a junk box, because thats where it will be needed if the requirment arise.
> 
> even with low quality chinese engg. lca sound like ages behind Chinese force.
> 
> it got so delayed that , the real charm is all gone , now its just fan boy fantasy for home country thats making em all celebrate.



ok , i am one of the fanboy of LCA , LCA making me celebrate , yes & ofcourse , and this celebration is here to stay for next 35 years...


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## marcos98

*Naval Tejas NP-1 to have its first flight by March : DRDO *

SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Dr. Prahlada DRDOs chief controller in an interview has said that ADE is gearing up for the first flight of Naval Tejas Prototype NP-1 by March this year , Original plans were to have the first flight by end of 2010 but it has been delayed to ensure that all critical new technology which will be integrated in Naval Tejas goes through smoothly in ground test phase .

NP-1 was rolled out in great roll out ceremony which was held in July last year in presence of Defense Minister A.K. Antony which was also attended by high ranking officials from Air force , Navy and DRDO . Dr. Prahlada also told that delay by 3 or 4 months will not have major impact on the whole Naval Tejas Project .

Currently a Special runway development is under way in Indian Navys air base in INS Hansa , this runway which will be mock a aircraft carrier runway deck will be used to test Naval Tejas and also future pilots of Navy that includes current fleet of BAe Hawk AJT , Mig-29k , N Tejas and new Multi role aircraft to be acquired soon by Indian Navy for the second and third indigenous aircraft carrier .


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## AMCA

No Hurry for Naval LCA as Our AC's will not be ready before 2014, so Let it take time, no probs at all.... Eagerly waiting to see the NP-1 fly though...


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## jha

Watch this video and press the button in the right corner if you like it..

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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

The Hindu : NATIONAL / TAMIL NADU : Aircraft Operating Centre at Sulur

The Aircraft Operating Centre with 18 &#8216;Tejas,' Light Combat Aircrafts will start functioning from Sulur (Coimbatore) Airport from June, said R. Swaminathan, Project Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. Talking to reporters on the sidelines after inaugurating a symposium at Thiagarajar Polytechnic College here on Wednesday, Mr. Swaminathan said that the next centre would be at Tuticorin. &#8220;*We have manufactured 48 aircraft and these piloted aircraft are equal to F16, F18 and MiG 21,&#8221; he said.*

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## gowthamraj

^ what mig-21 

Or he mistakenly said mig-29 like this


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## sudhir007




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## Lord Of Gondor

sudhir007 said:


> The Hindu : NATIONAL / TAMIL NADU : Aircraft Operating Centre at Sulur
> 
> The Aircraft Operating Centre with 18 &#8216;Tejas,' Light Combat Aircrafts will start functioning from Sulur (Coimbatore) Airport from June, said R. Swaminathan, Project Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. Talking to reporters on the sidelines after inaugurating a symposium at Thiagarajar Polytechnic College here on Wednesday, Mr. Swaminathan said that the next centre would be at Tuticorin. &#8220;*We have manufactured 48 aircraft and these piloted aircraft are equal to F16, F18 and MiG 21,&#8221; he said.*


OMFG,48 TEJAS A/C have been manufactured?????????OR is it the Flanker+Tejas total???????If the A/C's are Tejas then it's awesome news..............


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## Hulk

Once we successfuly complete the IOC this is what we should do.

Honor all scientist with both regonization and monetary award.
I would suggest 5 crore to Mr Koto and 2 and 1 crore to others depending on their contribution.

Why this is important, our scientist does not get paid well and this is needed to encourage others.

For those who think that money is large, think about CWG and 2G scams and the money we lost their.

I also feel scientist from other areas should also be rewarded.

Also most scientist should work for country through private sector, so that they award them.

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

indianrabbit said:


> Once we successfuly complete the IOC this is what we should do.
> 
> Honor all scientist with both regonization and monetary award.
> I would suggest 5 crore to Mr Koto and 2 and 1 crore to others depending on their contribution.
> 
> Why this is important, our scientist does not get paid well and this is needed to encourage others.
> 
> For those who think that money is large, think about CWG and 2G scams and the money we lost their.
> 
> I also feel scientist from other areas should also be rewarded.
> 
> Also most scientist should work for country through private sector, so that they award them.



i m in full support of your views
there should be some good cash awards for special contribution in defence field. this will definitely motivate good talent to get in to this field and give their best.
we have talent but they pay and perk our scientists receive is very less so the tilented people generally prefer private jobs with better pays. so their should be a special and higher pay scale for scientists which will help us get pool of talented people in defence sector.

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> *@ AMCA*
> Is it possible these designs are for LCA mkII ?//
> *@ sancho*
> Is it like, that nobody reads what i write, unless its a reply to someone ??/
> Has anybody checked what i wrote on the previous page ?//



Must have missed it.


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## angeldemon_007

I was just kidding man...but seriously have you read it ?/


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## RadyLeo

Amazing!!! The CLAW team of LCA program.

For 18 years, they had one goal & one dream called LCA!

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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> The Hindu : NATIONAL / TAMIL NADU : Aircraft Operating Centre at Sulur
> 
> The Aircraft Operating Centre with 18 Tejas,' Light Combat Aircrafts will start functioning from Sulur (Coimbatore) Airport from June, said R. Swaminathan, Project Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. Talking to reporters on the sidelines after inaugurating a symposium at Thiagarajar Polytechnic College here on Wednesday, Mr. Swaminathan said that the next centre would be at Tuticorin. *We have manufactured 48 aircraft and these piloted aircraft are equal to F16, F18 and MiG 21, he said.*



i think it's not 48 BUT ONLY 8.....they still have to menufecture the 40 which are on order...


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## luckyyy

*Light Combat Aircraft Tejas clears last hurdle*

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)Tejas on Thursday cleared its last hurdle before attaining the January 10-scheduled Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) with the aircraft&#8217;s integrated flight control system receiving the necessary documentation from the certifying authorities.

The Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) handed over the certification for the LCA&#8217;s integrated flight control system (IFCS) &#8211; the pilot-friendly flight controls.

The three teams involved in the LCA programme responsible for the IFCS were Control Law (CLAW), Flight Simulation team and the Parameter Identification team. &#8220;Over the years we have developed flight controls that have made the aircraft user-friendly for the pilots to do up to 8 or 9 G&#8217;s (eight to nine times the gravitation force). All the 14 test pilots who have flown the LCA over the last 10 years have said we have done a great job and there is nothing more satisfying than this,&#8221; Shyam Chetty, project director, CLAW, and the overall head of the three teams, said.

The three groups were formed separately in 1992 by former President APJ Abdul Kalam when he was the scientific advisor to the defence minister, and have been working closely since then.
Team members recalled the negative publicity the programme received in the initial years and the demands to wind it down as it was considered &#8220;more trouble than its worth&#8221;.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_light-combat-aircraft-tejas-clears-last-hurdle_1491320

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## SpArK

*Light Combat Aircraft Tejas clears last hurdle​*
Published: Friday, Jan 7, 2011,


The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)Tejas on Thursday cleared its last hurdle before attaining the January 10-scheduled Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) with the *aircrafts integrated flight control system receiving the necessary documentation from the certifying authorities*.

The Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) handed over the certification for the LCAs integrated flight control system (IFCS)  the pilot-friendly flight controls.

The three teams involved in the LCA programme responsible for the IFCS were Control Law (CLAW), Flight Simulation team and the Parameter Identification team. Over the years we have developed flight controls that have made the aircraft user-friendly for the pilots to do up to 8 or 9 Gs (eight to nine times the gravitation force). All the 14 test pilots who have flown the LCA over the last 10 years have said we have done a great job and there is nothing more satisfying than this, Shyam Chetty, project director, CLAW, and the overall head of the three teams, said.

The three groups were formed separately in 1992 by former President APJ Abdul Kalam when he was the scientific advisor to the defence minister, and have been working closely since then.

*Team members recalled the negative publicity the programme received in the initial years and the demands to wind it down as it was considered more trouble than its worth.*


Light Combat Aircraft Tejas clears last hurdle - India - DNA

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## ganimi kawa

Take a look at the names of members of the CLAW team of LCA.



> *The National CLAW Team: *
> Shyam Chetty (NAL), Girish S. Deodhare (ADA), Amitabh Saraf (ADA), Vijay V. Patel (ADA), Abhay A. Pashilkar (NAL), G.K. Singh (NAL), Lakshmi P. (ADA), Ambalal V. Patel (ADA), Praveen Joshi (ADA), P.V. Satyanarayana Murthy (NAL), Niranjan Kumar Sura (ADA), M. Jayalakshmi (ADA), G. Kumaresan (NAL), Ashok K. Prajapati (ADA), Akhila M.R. (ADA), Anup Maheshwari (ADA), Hitesh M. Trivedi (ADA), S. Swaminathan (ADA), G. Anoop (ARDC), Srikumar E.R. (ARDC), Rohit M. (ARDC), Gopinath M. (ARDC), Debasish Patnaik (ARDC), Prashant Goyal (ARDC), Pardeep Singh (ARDC), Aruna G.B. (NAL), Nagaraj K. (NAL).
> 
> 
> *Flight Simulation Group (FMCD, NAL):*
> A.A. Pashikar, Moncy T. Thomas, P. Lathasree, K.P. Srikanth, C. Kamali, P. Archana Hebbar, T. Vijeesh
> 
> 
> *Parameter Identification (PID) Group (FMCD, NAL): *
> Jatinder Singh, basappa, Sachin S. Tharewal, Md. Nishat Hussain, Khadeeja Nushrat T.K.



*This team comprises of people from all states of india, of all religions of India, of all age groups and yet they have worked together to create something world class!*

*This is the REAL "Unity in Diversity" of India!*

*This is our real power.*

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## marcos98

ganimi kawa said:


> Take a look at the names of members of the CLAW team of LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> *This team comprises of people from all states of india, of all religions of India, of all age groups and yet they have worked together to create something world class!*
> 
> *This is the REAL "Unity in Diversity" of India!*
> 
> *This is our real power.*








LCA FTW!!!!

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## AMCA

ganimi kawa said:


>



*YOU DID IT GUYZ ,NATION SALUTES YOU *

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## AMCA



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## marcos98

*MEDIA INVITATION:​*






http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/media-invite-for-tejas-ioc-out.html


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## marcos98

I hope they give out the HF-XX designation 10th..


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## jack220

good to see tejas in indian colors


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## sahil1

but the main issue being the potency of the fighter....read somewhere dat its max speed was around 1500kmph...........wd it be able to compete with blk50 comin frm other side


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## sahil1

even if we use it for defence hows it supposed to be intercepting jets like f16 n jf17 which are much faster


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## GORKHALI

MasCom student joins Tarmak007's Tejas IOC party!


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## ajtr

sahil1 said:


> even if we use it for defence hows it supposed to be intercepting jets like f16 n jf17 which are much faster


Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.


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## blackops

sahil1 said:


> but the main issue being the potency of the fighter....read somewhere dat its max speed was around 1500kmph...........wd it be able to compete with blk50 comin frm other side



you are wrong my friend this is the true speed Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m 

the speed you mentioned is the speed at sea level


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## blackops

ajtr said:


> Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.



plzzzzzz correct yourself this is the spped of jf 17 Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 km/h)


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## Ammyy

ajtr said:


> Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.



With better radar and better aviation its all justified 

And about faster induction ................. Our air force not want incomplete aircraft those who are flying MKIs ready for typhoon or Rafale not interested in current version of LCA so its obvious


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## GORKHALI

ajtr said:


> Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.



OH!!!!!PLZ enlighten us with your *WHITE ELEPHANT THEORY WITH WHITE LIES* source ??? better you troll some where else ,this's not the write place...


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## sahil1

the fact of matter is that it would have been a potent fighter if inducted 10yrs ago.looking at the current inventory of iaf and future procurement plans.....potency of tejas takes a blow in the belly


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## tallboy123

*This one is awesome....:-*






Another ~35 Hours to GO!!!!!!!!!!!

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

sahil1 said:


> the fact of matter is that it would have been a potent fighter if inducted 10yrs ago.looking at the current inventory of iaf and future procurement plans.....potency of tejas takes a blow in the belly



dont worry about it. TEjas is 4 th gen fighter and almost all forces operate 4 th gen fighters as low end fighters to support their high end fighters. 
if you are comparing Tejas with MKI or future aircrafts like MMRCA winner or FGFA then they are high end fighters for different roles. they wont be used for point defence for which TEjas will be used.
we need to have a high low mix for keeping it economical. and about future then TEJAS MK 2 is planned for it which will have features making it one of best in league so dont worry.


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## insomniac00

i think LCA requires more western help to break anything....looks too average...... aint going into details this aircraft isnt worth much time lol....wasent this a near dead project....it took so many more years than the jf-17 to materialze and MUCH more investment......even then such petty results...


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## sahil1

just wishing best of luck to lca dat it turns out to be one heck of a machine within all speculative environment


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## GareebNawaz

why deepest best thanks go to the men and women who made this bird possible! The first of many my friends!

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## Storm Force

Lets get some thing striaght here.

LCA project now means India can design build and test from scratch new generation fighters helicopters missles and UAVs.

Thunder has given Pak nothing other than new experience to assemble a foreign fighter (albeit a fighter that was designed to PAF requirements) 

India was license assembling MIG21s way back in the 1980s alongside Jaguars. Today India assembles SU30MKI. lICENSE ASSEMBLE NO BIG DEAL. 

LCA will mean india goes from this 1960s designed fighter






To this





From a basic albeit upgraded cold war relic with limited vision poor cockpit and limited control flying metal alloy fighter although it has limitede bvr

TO 

low rcs high compsite quadruplex digital fbw multi role fighter. 

Remember india stil has ober 200 mig21S in service

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## deckingraj

sahil1 said:


> the fact of matter is that it would have been a potent fighter if inducted 10yrs ago.looking at the current inventory of iaf and future procurement plans.....potency of tejas takes a blow in the belly



Why would it be potent if inducted 10 years ago??? What are the fighters that our potential adversaries have inducted that as per you cannot be intercepted by Tejas??? Look it is never 1-on-1 scenario in a battle field...Between Tejas is going to replace the almost obsolete fleets of Migs in our inventory...So not sure what is the fuss about...


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## tallboy123

I wish we throw all those mig 21's and replace them with Tejas Mk1
After Tejas Mk2 is developed and inducted..
We can upgraade Tejas Mk1 to Mk2 easily...
Wat do u think about this guys...


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## Storm Force

LCA look a real neat fighter in flight images

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## IamINDIA

Storm Force said:


> LCA look a real neat fighter in flight images



once in service id like to see a official report by IAF one its performance


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## kish

Self deleted


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## kish

ajtr said:


> Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.



Yes, you are right but jf 17 still have foreign engine , still have no idea which radar is using with what capabilities 
Still have no full FBW system, and still no idea about other supporting system . . If we had induct such type of fighter LCA is flying from jan 2001 . . 
I m not saying jf 17 a bad fighter . . . But we need a fighter which have most of our own system and we got late that is why MMRCA is here .


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## sudhir007

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FULL COVERAGE JAN 9-10: Tejas Initial Operational Clearance

I will be in Bangalore from tomorrow for the milestone initial operational clearance (IOC) of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) on January 10. It's going to be a big day, the entire programme team will be there. It's the best possible time get questions answered. Post your questions here, and I'll try getting them answered. Keep it real, of course.


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## ajay

It's remarkable what a good paint job can do!!


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## Capt.Popeye

ajtr said:


> Thats why LCA gonna prove itself to be a $30 million white elephant against cheap JF-17,which is much better than LCA and faster in its induction and production.



_Assuming_ that you are making some sense in your statement ?? Then the IAF should go and buy the cheap JF-17; kinda 2 for the price of 1 deal,hunh.

And BTW, the thread says on top: LCA News & Discussions.
or that did'nt cross your mind?


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## IndianArmy

Hey Come on, Stop Fighting, Everyone has the right to say anything within the Limits and permits of the forum rules, and If a Person Dosent like he should learn to Ignore, One Must not force upon his/her views Upon others....

If a User Says LCA is a Good for Nothing Fighter aircraft, Why do you have chase him down, Come on People Let it be, Leave it upon there Views, The More you resist persist.... 

Why is there a Need to convince others About this??

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## farhan_9909

Can any body tell me the weapon payload of the current LCA?


thanx in advance


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## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> Can any body tell me the weapon payload of the current LCA?
> 
> 
> thanx in advance


... 

*Its 4000kgs ,But the Maximum take off Weight is 13,500 According to HAL... Hard points cannot carry more than 5300KG's ... *

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## RPK

*There is a likelihood of delivering altogether seven squadrons of Tejas aircraft to the IAF , the release said.*

Tejas soon to be inducted into IAF - The Economic Times


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## RPK



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## IND151

YouTube - IAF - HAL TEJAS LCA Light Combact Aircraft walkaround KH2005 Indian Air force


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## IND151

YouTube - HAL Tejas PV3 First Flight Video


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## marcos98



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## OldKool

^^^does anyone has a full' armed pic of tejas!


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## OldKool

MY WALLPAPER!





---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------

^^^wow amazing shot i found on net!


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## Gabbar

Tejas soon to be inducted into IAF​
BANGALORE: In a major milestone, light combat aircraft Tejas is all set to attain Initial Operational Clearance on January 10, taking its last step before induction into the Air Force. 

*"This is the first time that an indigenously designed and developed military fighter aircraft would be certified for Air Force operations," a Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) release said here.* 

Defence Minister A K Antony will hand over a formal Release to Service Certificate of Tejas aircraft to the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik at a function here on January 10. 

The occasion marks a very important achievement in the design and development of Tejas in particular and military aviation in the country on the whole as Tejas aircraft will be available for use by Air Force Pilots. 

*There is a likelihood of delivering altogether seven squadrons of Tejas aircraft to the IAF , the release said. *

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## Hulk

Does anyone knows if LSP's will be upgraded to make them SP. I am very excited. Kota should be given some awards.


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## Gabbar




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## sancho

Gabbar said:


>



I think that's a pic from the first bomb release like this one (left):


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> I think that's a pic from the first bomb release like this one (left):



and those pics clearly shows the Litening-II Targetting pod.


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## pulsar220

OldKool said:


> MY WALLPAPER!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
> 
> ^^^wow amazing shot i found on net!


now its my wallpaper too  
tomorrow induction! i'm loving it


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## Paan Singh

pulsar220 said:


> now its my wallpaper too
> tomorrow induction! i'm loving it



mine tooooo


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## Ghoster

pulsar220 said:


> now its my wallpaper too
> tomorrow induction! i'm loving it



mine to..........
but it looks like photoshopped........

are they showing the ceremoney live on DD1?????


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

Ghoster said:


> mine to..........
> but it looks like photoshopped........
> 
> are they showing the ceremony live on DD1?????


yeah i am also excited to see the ceremony . are they going to broadcast it somewhere?


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## GORKHALI

*Tough nuts to crack, but here comes a safe Tejas*





[/IMG]





We are not here to win hearts. Safety of Tejas is paramount and we have mastered the art of saying NO with a smile, if things were not in place. Once, I was even summoned by Delhi for not clearing a flight for a long time. I explained point by point and everyone was convinced. We were given an uphill task and we did it with all the honesty and sincerity. There might have been delays due to our firm stand, but our mission was to clear an aircraft that was Safe to Fly, CEMILAC Chief Executive Tamil Mani, Distinguished Scientist, In-charge of Airworthiness and Certification was candid, as ever.
We were attempting everything for the first time in the country. Tejas is an advanced fighter aircraft with cutting edge, state-of the-art technologies. Hence, the challenge was equal to the designers and the certification agencies. We are an independent organization that takes the responsibility to declare that the aircraft thus produced is Safe, Reliable and meets the desired performance as specified for IOC Phase-1, and is therefore Fit to Fly by the squadron pilots, Tamil Mani adds.
Certification team got activated the moment ASR was out
The Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (Aircraft) (RCMA-A/C), a unit of CEMILAC, was tasked with the Airworthiness Certification of LCA, right from the time the Air Staff Requirement (ASR) were out for the LCA project in 1985. Certification of a complex project like LCA can be done only through a concurrent approach, where the certification team is involved in the project right from its conceptual stage. The first phase is the design evaluation phase, where RCMA (A/C) has carefully examined the design of all systems and evaluated the design as against the Requirements, Standards, Performance and Safety.
The proof of the pudding lies in testing the systems, which is the next phase of Certification. Test schedules are made to cover the functional and failure evaluation of the system. RCMA (A/C), by way of complete scrutiny of the requirement specifications and standards, ensured that the test schedule is correct and adequate. Before the first flight a Flight Clearance Note (FCN) is generated, capturing all the operational conditions, limitations and flight envelopes. Safety of flight is thereafter ensured through adherence to the FCN. Every test flight is accompanied by a Flight Test Schedule, thoroughly scrutinized and coordinated by RCMA (A/C) for its safety. It is a matter of pride that, today with 11 platforms flying, logging a total of 1500-plus flights, there has not been a single incident, which no other aircraft producing country in the world could boast off. This is a clear testimony to the focus and dedication of the LCA team, especially the certification authorities, CEMILAC and DGAQA, who have ensured adherence to stringent safety and inspection norms.
To ensure timely Certification of LCA for IOC-1, RCMA(A/C) drew a Route to Certification Document. This document took stock of all the completed activities for IOC and highlighted the activities that needed to be completed. Based on RCMAs involvement at every stage of the program and also by careful examination of the requirements and test reports both ground and flight, involving local and outstation trials, activities such as Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) clearance, ASR compliance, Military Standard compliance, ground testing, flight testing and closures of all pilot and ground snags were clearly highlighted in the Route to Certification Document.
17 major systems, 346 LRUs, 33 software-embedded systems, 43 MilStds
To ensure systematic approach to clearance, RCMA (A/C) evolved a novel System Certification methodology. The aircraft was categorized into 17 major systems, with 346 LRUs and 33 software embedded systems. All the LRUs were certified by the issuance of Type approval. This ensured that the LRU has undergone complete qualification tests as stipulated by RCMA (A/C) and has met all Safety and Performance standards as laid down by CEMILAC. Each of the 17 systems is individually cleared and certified for its performance and safety over 1,500 test flights including outstation trials such as the hot weather, cold weather, high-altitude, sea-level and weapon trials. The design and testing of individual systems were evaluated as against compliance of top level requirements of the ASR and relevant Military Standards. There are 43 top level and several associated Military Standards to comply. RCMA (A/C) has ensured that Tejas is of an international product by complying with each and every requirement of all the relevant Military standards. 
Being an advanced fighter, there has been an extensive use of software in the flight controls, avionics and weapon management systems. A failure of which could infringe safety or a mission. Software was hence certified through stringent independent verification and validation through out its development life cycle, right from specification, design, implementation and testing at various levels.
We cleared the Tejas based on the demonstrated capabilities, says Tamil Mani, Distinguished Scientist, CEMILAC Chief Executive, 
We are responsible to identify the likely flaws. We conduct a series of tests and even fail many systems (at ground level) to see what happens. Not once, but many times. Every flight of Tejas is coordinated by us. We cleared the aircraft based on the demonstrated capabilities, and not on the design capabilities, not once but many times. Release to Service Document (RSD) defines the operational capabilities of the aircraft. *Tejas has flown up to a maximum speed of **1,350 kmph and pulled 6G*, so far. The remaining design parameters will be demonstrated in the next phase. ADA will have to do the full tests required by CEMILAC for approval. The journey so far has been very exciting and even we have evolved over the years. It is a mammoth task and great achievement by the designers, engineers, flight crew, pilots and many more. Remember, when the fly-by-wire system was designed, none of us really knew what it was. We have learned over the years. Everybody felt that we (CEMILAC) cant do it. India is a country, were people say that the cup is half empty, instead of half full.
The arrival of PMT from IAF propelled Tejas project
During the course of the interview with the CEMILAC team, it was very evident that the Tejas program got a major boost with the arrival of the Program Management Team (PMT) from the IAF. According to CEMILAC officials, the PMT changed the face of Tejas program. The communication became better and the correct feedback went to IAF. The Appreciation while executing various complexities of work started to pour in. There was better bonding between the user and the rest, the CEMILAC team said.
MCA will be the biggest beneficiary of Tejas project: Kanchan Biswas, Sc G, Associate Director (Aircraft)
We were doing everything of this nature for the first time, though we had enough experience working on 14 platforms (including upgrades), before taking up the Tejas certification. The knowledge levels were also low and test facilities were not available initially. Today, with CAD-CAM, you can walk through an aircraft before its made. I am confident that the future programs will now become faster. The MCA project will gain immensely from Tejas. MCA will be the biggest beneficiary.
We had the guts to tell foreign suppliers to give quality products: P.R. Baghel, Regional Dir., RCMA
Its a fact that we have set very tough quality standards. I remember an incident when rain drop test were to be done on Tejas ComSet and fungus test on some components. It had to be done on Indian conditions. It was a South African firm and there were some issues. They were trying to pass the buck on to our systems and eventually we put our foot down and said what went wrong. We have the guts to tell that whats wrong. We wont allow an iota of doubt to fall on us. Nobody should take us for granted. Our mission is to make Tejas safe.
I have grown with Tejas and shes like my child: Nirmala, Technical Officer C, Assistant Head of Electrical and Avionics Systems
We follow the SEIZE (Satisfaction, Experience, Inspiration, Zeal and Enhancement) philosophy of work. I look after the hardware systems from the Avionics side. If there was delay in the program, then it was due to the lack of awareness and we are admitting it. But, thats a thing of past and we have evolved. I am with this project for the last 10 years and I must tell that my male colleagues respected the technical capabilities. As a mother, I can say LCA is my baby. We have very strong sentimental attachment to this program and remember that we withstood all onslaughts. Eventually, the program is the winner.
I was shivering when I cleared Tejas for its maiden flight on Jan. 4: Gracy Philip, Scientist F, Software Group Head
I joined the program when I was 22 years. The digital-fly-by-wire systems are very safety critical. Ours is a very demanding job and I have seen it inside out for the last 18 years. Our job was to get into a detailed analysis whenever a failure happened. I am grateful to God that everything has been smooth. I still remember my hands were shivering and heart beat doubling when I cleared the first flight of Tejas on January 4, 2001. When we look back, we have crossed many milestones. We are wedded to this project and very much insulated from all the bad publicity. Ultimately, the truth has arrived. You can call it by any name  IOC, FOC, Induction.
We cleared a system thats a safe home for pilots: Pradeep Mahuli, Additional Regional Director, Aircraft Escape Systems
We have built in safety features in consultations with all the pilots. Today, even though there are a couple of non-safety critical issues to be closed, I can proudly say that Tejas is definitely a world-class product. I am responsible for clearances of aircraft escape system, environmental control system, life support system, brake parachute system and flying clothing. Here my hero is the pilot and I do everything for him. The ejection seats are tested in UK and also we carry out various flight-critical assessments. Having traversed this far and interacted with leaders in the world, we have today cleared Tejas with complete satisfaction.
We endured every bit of polite sledge: Peter Arun, Scientist E, Head IFCS
We are the people who give the Flight Clearance Note (FCN). Nobody could rock our boat and our focus was protected from all the negative and one-sided remarks on Tejas. We had a strong devotion for the program. We have waited, nurtured, grown and achieved. We knew it will happen. We endured every bit of polite sledge. We were given the space within CEMILAC to debate. To me, LCA is a joy for designers, delight for pilots and with great pleasure we cleared it for IOC.
We hope to find some time for our families now: Jeba Kumar, Scientist E (Head Aero & CLAW) and Giri, Scientist E (Head Structures)
Jeba: When I cleared the fixed CLAW in 1996, there were very few admirers even from within the project. We ignored all our personal pleasures in life and just focused on the project. All the accolades started to come late, when people realized our worth.
Giri: We understand the needs of designers and they too understand our needs. There are many things we have sacrificed in our lives. I hope we will find some time to be with our families now. I used to share this joke with my friends: After 6 pm if we reach home and the wife smiles. After 7, its a stare; after 8 verbal abuse and beyond that out of control!
Thats all folks from CEMLIC in this edition of Tejas story. At the end of it all, CEMILAC says there has been a paradigm shift in the project. Earlier they were branded as bureaucrats and now they are treated as partners. When it comes to certification, we dont have any attachment to any one unit or individual. Our attachment is to the program and we wanted to ensure its safety. We are the impartial on-field umpires, concludes CEMILAC CEO Tamil Mani.
THE TEAM: Venkatesha T.V., Sc D, Head Mechanical Systems; S.N. Giri, Sc E, Head Structures; S.K. jebakumar, Sc E, Head Aero & CLAW; M. Peter Arjun, Sc E, Head IFCS; S. Nirmala, Technical Officer "c", Asst. Head of Electrical 7 Avionics Systems; Gracy Philip, Sc F, Head, Software Group, Pradeep Mahuli, Addl. Regional Director, Aircraft Escape Systems; P.R. Baghel, Reg. Director RCMA (A/C); K. Tamil Mani, Distinguished Scientist & Chief Executive, CEMILAC; P.S. Deshmukh, Sc G, Grp. Director (Systems); G. Gouda, Grop. Director (Propulsions); R. Kamala Kannan, Sc F, Addl. Director and Kanchan Biswas, Sc G, Associate Director (Aircraft)

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## rockstarIN



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## rockstarIN

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------







*We cleared the Tejas based on the demonstrated capabilities, says Tamil Mani, Distinguished Scientist, CEMILAC Chief Executive, *
We are responsible to identify the likely flaws. We conduct a series of tests and even fail many systems (at ground level) to see what happens. Not once, but many times. Every flight of Tejas is coordinated by us. We cleared the aircraft based on the demonstrated capabilities, and not on the design capabilities, not once but many times. Release to Service Document (RSD) defines the operational capabilities of the aircraft. Tejas has flown up to a maximum speed of 1,350 kmph and pulled 6G, so far. The remaining design parameters will be demonstrated in the next phase. ADA will have to do the full tests required by CEMILAC for approval. The journey so far has been very exciting and even we have evolved over the years. It is a mammoth task and great achievement by the designers, engineers, flight crew, pilots and many more. Remember, when the fly-by-wire system was designed, none of us really knew what it was. We have learned over the years. Everybody felt that we (CEMILAC) can&#8217;t do it. India is a country, were people say that the cup is half empty, instead of half full.


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## RPK

*Tejas exports likely after induction into IAF *
Tejas exports likely after induction into IAF | Tejas | | Indian Express

Sharan PoovannaExpress News ServiceFirst Published : 09 Jan 2011 06:03:44 AM ISTLast Updated : 09 Jan 2011 11:01:46 AM IST

BANGALORE: The ingeniously built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, is due for its initial operation clearance (IOC) on January 10. But the aircraft that has 40 orders already from the Indian Air Force (IAF), could also be sold to other friendly countries, as the "export options" would also be considered.


&#8220;We would also consider selling the planes to other friendly countries, but that would be decided only after the induction of the flights into the IAF,&#8221; sources said.

Sharing some of the features that make the LCA an attractive product, sources said, &#8220;The On Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), is one of the highlights of the LCA,&#8221; he said and added, &#8220;Since carrying oxygen adds to the payload, this technology ensures that the same can be utilised for other purposes as there is oxygen generated inside for the pilot.&#8221;

They added that this technology was available with only three other countries. Sources said that besides this, the features of fly-by-wire, digital clock and other state-of-the-art technologies would add to the value of the product.

"India did not have a car that was produced here, and now we have some of the best aviation technologies in the world,&#8221; they said and added that &#8220;the LCA would leave a signature on the Indian sky."

The LCA would also be used in the making of other variants like LCA Mark II and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) among others. Sources also said that the development capability would be used for the unmanned aerial combat vehicle as well.

On signing of deals like the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), officials said the platform for the LCA would be used to create better and more efficient aircraft for the IAF.

&#8220;The LCA is a long-term investment and the light weight of the aircraft gives it the edge in manoeuvrability and efficiency,&#8221; they said and that this would add considerable value to the IAF and the aviation industry in the country as well.


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## rockstarIN

*
I have grown with Tejas and she&#8216;s like my child: Nirmala, Technical Officer &#8216;C&#8217;, Assistant Head of Electrical and Avionics Systems*
We follow the SEIZE (Satisfaction, Experience, Inspiration, Zeal and Enhancement) philosophy of work. I look after the hardware systems from the Avionics side. If there was delay in the program, then it was due to the lack of awareness and we are admitting it. But, that&#8217;s a thing of past and we have evolved. I am with this project for the last 10 years and I must tell that my male colleagues respected the technical capabilities. As a mother, I can say LCA is my baby. We have very strong sentimental attachment to this program and remember that we withstood all onslaughts. Eventually, the program is the winner.

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## tallboy123

*
Tejas to sign &#8216;V&#8217; in the sky
*
Jan 8:* Defence scientists will flash the &#8216;V&#8217; sign in the skies with three &#8216;Tejas&#8217; combat aircraft scheduled to fly in formation to mark the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the jet in Bengaluru on Monday.*

Sources in Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) said *two combat versions of &#8216;Tejas&#8217; would flank the trainer variant in &#8216;V&#8217; formation on that day to show that the aircraft are ready for induction by the Indian Air Force (IAF).*

The fighters would join the IAF fleet after more grueling test flights during the day and night and firing missiles at targets located by the radar onboard. These tests are likely to be completed by June this year, the sources added.

On Monday, defence minister A.K. Antony will hand over a formal release to service certificate of &#8216;Tejas&#8217; aircraft to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengaluru/tejas-sign-&#37;E2%80%98v%E2%80%99-sky-335

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## Hulk

tallboy123 said:


> *
> Tejas to sign V in the sky
> *
> Jan 8:* Defence scientists will flash the V sign in the skies with three Tejas combat aircraft scheduled to fly in formation to mark the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the jet in Bengaluru on Monday.*
> 
> Sources in Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) said *two combat versions of Tejas would flank the trainer variant in V formation on that day to show that the aircraft are ready for induction by the Indian Air Force (IAF).*
> 
> The fighters would join the IAF fleet after more grueling test flights during the day and night and firing missiles at targets located by the radar onboard. These tests are likely to be completed by June this year, the sources added.
> 
> On Monday, defence minister A.K. Antony will hand over a formal release to service certificate of Tejas aircraft to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik.
> 
> Tejas to sign ?V? in the sky | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-01-09



Go Tejas go. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee did it. V should be for victory.

"Iftedaye ishq hai rota hai kya, aage aage dekhiyee hota hai kya"

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## Screambowl

i will be more happy when I see LCA flying on Republic Day!


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## marcos98

indianrabbit said:


> Go Tejas go. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee did it. V should be for victory.
> 
> "Iftedaye ishq hai rota hai kya, aage aage dekhiyee hota hai kya"


WAH...WAH....
ye lijiye sample:


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## Hulk

Screambowl said:


> i will be more happy when I see LCA flying on Republic Day!



I am on seventh heaven. Main *pagal *ho gaya hoon.

Tejas ................Tejas I love you.
..............................


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## Screambowl

marcos98 said:


> WAH...WAH....
> ye lijiye sample:



this is cool


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## MAFIAN GOD

Screambowl said:


> i will be more happy when I see LCA flying on Republic Day!



I am totally agree with this.
Tejas should fly on this Republic Day.


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## Paan Singh

marcos98 said:


> WAH...WAH....
> ye lijiye sample:



kitney aadami they


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## palash_kol

indianrabbit said:


> I am on seventh heaven. Main *pagal *ho gaya hoon.
> 
> Tejas ................Tejas I love you.
> ..............................



*I wish the name would be Tejaswini......

But I still love you Tejas from the bottom of my heart.....

Please guard our sky like an eagle with your powerful nails, jaws and beak...*


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## farhan_9909

We pakistani and indian love Tejas/Jf-17 more than F-16 and MKI..

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## marcos98

PREDICTION:
tommorow this thread will be on fire..

HF-?? Tejas rules.

i bet the designation will be HF-71 Tejas....


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## Hulk

Can't wait for tomorrow.

IOC means we have reached a very important milestones.

Next is LCA MK II and AMCA. I am positive we will achive both.

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## tallboy123

marcos98 said:


> WAH...WAH....
> ye lijiye sample:



Not like that friend...

It's like this i think





Smoke shaped V sign i guess


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## tallboy123

* 12 hours to go for Tejas Induction into Air force..*
*Waiting for this from a year....*






* 10/1/2011-Birthday of Tejas*


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

indianrabbit said:


> I am on seventh heaven. *Main pagal ho gaya hoon.*
> 
> Tejas ................Tejas I love you.
> ..............................



Oh Please control karen.. App pagal hojaoge India yeh great loss sah nahi paega.. Plz control karen hum abhi apki zaroorat .. Beshak badh mein pagal hojana mein khud apko hospital chor aonga ..


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## kish

its still night and we all getting crazy,,, i am waiting for new morning,,,,,,,,,


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## shrivatsa

all hail tejas...............
mean while a great series in TARMAK

and all most all the answer for the delays


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## jha

Guys in Bangalore please skip the office today and have your camera ready..
We want the first hand pictures...


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## shrivatsa

live telicast...........?


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## IndianArmy

shrivatsa said:


> live telicast...........?



C-130J Super Hercules Would be there in Bangalore Carrying the Media Personnels , So dont worry, todays News Channels would be Flowing with the telecast....


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## Hulk

Go Tejas Go...

Kitna wait karen mere bhai, 2,3 mahinee se is din ka wait kar raha huun, in-fact 1 sal se but last 2,3 months were more difficult to wait.


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## ajay

IAF to get fighter plane 'Tejas' today - India News - IBNLive


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## 1ndy

somebozo said:


> It means that the great India love for USA has only resulted in US dumping their obsolete 4 and 4.5 gen stuff into India?



Yes  f-16's are obsolate


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## IndianArmy

*Tejas exports likely after induction into IAF *




The ingeniously built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, is due for its initial operation clearance (IOC) on January 10.* But the aircraft that has 40 orders already from the Indian Air Force (IAF), could also be sold to other friendly countries, as the &#8220;export options&#8221; would also be considered.&#8220;We would also consider selling the planes to other friendly countries, but that would be decided only after the induction of the flights into the IAF,&#8221; sources said.**Sharing some of the features that make the LCA an attractive product, sources said, &#8220;The On Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), is one of the highlights of the LCA,&#8221; he said and added, &#8220;Since carrying oxygen adds to the payload, this technology ensures that the same can be utilised for other purposes as there is oxygen generated inside for the pilot.&#8221;They added that this technology was available with only three other countries. sources said that besides this, the features of fly-by-wire, digital clock and other state-of-the-art technologies would add to the value of the product.&#8221;*India did not have a car that was produced here, and now we have some of the best aviation technologies in the world,&#8221; they said and added that &#8220;the LCA would leave a signature on the Indian sky.&#8221;The LCA would also be used in the making of other variants like LCA Mark II and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) among others. sources also said that the development capability would be used for the unmanned aerial combat vehicle as well.On signing of deals like the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), officials said the platform for the LCA would be used to create better and more efficient aircraft for the IAF.&#8220;The LCA is a long-term investment and the light weight of the aircraft gives it the edge in manoeuvrability and efficiency,&#8221; they said and that this would add considerable value to the IAF and the aviation industry in the country as well.

http://idrw.org/

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## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: 'LCA is completely Indian'
Aeronautical Development
Agency (ADA) director P S
Subramanyam is an elated
man. In less than 24 hours, the
man and his entire team will
showcase their creation to the world: the Tejas Light Combat
Aircraft (LCA), which is set for
initial operational clearance
(IOC) on Monday. Ahead of
this
aerospace milestone, Subramanyam spoke to STOI
on Saturday: Q. People say
India took 27
years to develop the LCA. Is
that a right assessment? A.
That would be an unfair assessment. It is true that the
project was conceived in 1983
with initial funding of Rs560
crore. In 2001, we launched an
operational aircraft and test
flights. Ten years later - 2011 - we have the vehicle ready for
initial clearance. If the date of
flight testing and launch of
operational aircraft is taken
into account, the LCA has
been developed in 10 years. The technology
demonstration
kick-started in 1993 but the
money came in 2001. We
have demonstrated that we
could build an aircraft within a decade. Have these
technologies been
completely developed by
India? Yes. Indian scientists
have proved through the LCA
that they have mastered and demonstrated fourth
generation-plus technologies
deployed on fighter aircraft.
There is foreign involvement
for small components. To
what extent is LCA indigenous? LCA is 70-80&#37;
indigenous. The
foreign/imported component
in LCA involves the engine,
radar, some navigation
technologies and some displays. The design,
development, testing,
certification and mastery of
the system engineering is
completely Indian. There are
just six to eight countries in the world that can design,
develop, test and certify a
fighter aircraft -- India is now
one among them. Can we
make the LCA 100%
indigenous and when? We expect to go 100%
indigenous on the LCA in five
years. Advanced plans are
already in place and work is
on. We expect to indigenize
the engine, radar and a few components in five years. A
higher variant of the present
LCA will be launched by 2014.
Is the present LCA
contemporary and for how
long? LCA is contemporary and will remain so for another
15 years,till 2025. In all, Mark I
and Mark II versions of the
LCA will be contemporary
even as we touch 2030. Which
aircraft can you compare the LCA to? Swedish
Gripen,Chinese-Pak
J-17 Thunder, Korean T-50.
The LCA is as good if not
better than these. How many
LCAs are you looking at in terms of order? We have
suggested 200 in all
for the IAF. We have received
an order for 40 now -- 20 will
go in soon, 20 three years
later.


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## IndianArmy




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## jha

What time are expecting IOC..I am stuck in office till 2:30..


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## SpArK

*Indias own first supersonic fighter Tejas to join Air Force today​*



Bangalore: Indias own first supersonic multi-role combat aircraft Tejas, meant to replace MiG 21s and MiG 23s, will join the Air Force on Monday for initial operational clearance.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), considered to be the worldâs smallest military aircraft with a single seat, will be among top eight aircraft in the world in technological design and performance terms.

Tejas, which was under development for nearly 28 years and beat US sanctions, will achieve the significant milestone today when Defence Minister A K Antony will give the release to service certificate to Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik.

The handing over of the service certificate will enable Indian Air Force fighter pilots to fly the LCA for final operational clearance by 2012.

The LCA has been developed by the state-run Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA) and manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore. The project was started in 1983 with a budget of Rs. 560 crore and was named âTejasâ in 2004.

The project was delayed due to various factors, including sanctions by the US in wake of nuclear tests conducted by India in May 1998, which resulted in rise of cost to Rs.5,778 crore from the initial estimate of Rs.3,300 crore.

The F404-GE-IN20 engine from the US-based General Electric powers the fighter, as the indigenously developed Kaveri engine is still undergoing advance trials.

ADA director PS Subramanyam said that they are developing a new variant of the present LCA by 2014-15 and the fighter jet will be fully indigenous in five years time.

The HAL is manufacturing eight aircraft for clearance flights and will take up the IAFâs initial order to deliver 20 jets to form the first Tejas squadron, which will be based at the Sulur air base near Coimbatore.

The Air Force has also placed an additional order of 20 more Tejas for the second squadron in 2010. It will be raised at Kayathir near Tuticorin. The IAF may finally have around 200 LCAs (10 squadrons) in its fleet.

India?s own first supersonic fighter Tejas to join Air Force today

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## ganimi kawa

*We salute the brave test pilots of the LCA program! You guys rock!*

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## baker

come on guys.. today is very special day for our aviation industry....

lets celebrate this day...



> Bangalore: Indiaâs own first supersonic multi-role combat aircraft Tejas, meant to replace MiG 21s and MiG 23s, will join the Air Force on Monday for initial operational clearance.
> 
> The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), considered to be the worldâs smallest military aircraft with a single seat, will be among top eight aircraft in the world in technological design and performance terms.
> 
> Tejas, which was under development for nearly 28 years and beat US sanctions, will achieve the significant milestone today when Defence Minister A K Antony will give the release to service certificate to Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik.



India?s own first supersonic fighter Tejas to join Air Force today


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## IndianArmy

Where is the live telecast going??? Any Idea??


----------



## Screambowl

will they fly on 26th then????
i am keen to see them ................


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## gowthamraj

^ which time the ceromony going to takes place


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## IndianArmy

DD news is telecasting now...

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------

Doordarshan News Live webcast


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## IndianArmy

My bad, DD news will Only show it as headlines, any Idea where the Live telecast is?


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## Ghoster

what the heck?...No live telecast....DD1 is showing a f#cking serial........


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## GORKHALI

Tejas Pilots' Hall of Fame:Meet the stars
who touched the skies
with glory; IOC for LCA





Test Pilots who have flown LCA so far(below).

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## GORKHALI

World-Beaters:The fly-by-wire FCS will take
India to new heights

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

i just saw news and
Air chief marshal said FOC will be achieved IN next 2 YEARS.


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## rockstarIN

*Why cross the continent, when we can do it? Sreekalakumary SI, Sc E*

Though Sanctions did nothing to dampen our spirits, it shook us for a day or two. I was very young then and was at Lockheed Martin. We were 5 of us. We knew about Pokhran N-test. On May 15, 1998 around 11 am suddenly our computers went blank. We were told to stop work. Not to carry even a pin-head from there. Even while going to the toilet, the security used to escort and wait outside. Our Defense Ambassador in US took care of us. We made phones calls back home. Everyone was worried. Interestingly, we had to pay to get back some of our stuff (not personal belongings) after 2 years of Sanctions. But, we learned professionalism from US chaps. Later, we thought why cross the Continent, when we can do it ourselves? Dr Kalam was mentoring us well. He said: &#8220;All we Indians should join together and please wok together for Tejas.&#8221; We told him about our poor salaries and he said he would help. And he helped.

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## siegecrossbow

So military induction is confirmed. Congrats.

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## rockstarIN

*We were all young, energetic and designing FCS for Tejas was a dream: Asha Garg, Sc F*

Our average age in the team then was around 30. We were the software group. We were all chasing a big dream. We would never give up, even now. The Tejas project gave us an excellent starting point to our careers. We designed with precision and tested to perfection, which gave us the confidence to sit and monitor each flight. Even now, one of us will always go and monitor in real time all the flights. We have not missed a single flight in the last 10 years (1510 sorties.) It gives the pilots a huge confidence. Many companies tried to lure us (even now), but we can never leave this program. Its the challenge of working with LCA that keep us going. Tejas is not a project, but a way of life for us. In 10 years, we have seen 18 different versions (upgraded) of software in Tejas.

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## rockstarIN

*I have seen how the pilots would get tense before the maiden flight: Bhatia, Sc D*

I have seen many pilots come and fly the simulator at ADE. I have seen them tense before every maiden flight. I have seen them checking the fail mode, again and again. Especially, Kothiyal, before the first flight, would land up here every day to fly the simulator. He was very focused. I used to watch him very closely. And, when he made that famous statement, I knew, the worth of work. *(Kothiyal had said that he felt like flying the simulator, soon after the TD-1 maiden flight.)* It is a matter of great pride to the Real Time Simulator (RTS) development team that this is the only dome- based simulator currently operational in the India with almost zero downtime and close to 100&#37; indigenous content. The ever evolving requirements of LCA thus could be easily met by indigenous RTS technology. Alternative imported systems come with lot of hidden costs and one needs to be at the mercy of the supplier to overcome cost and schedule overruns. The RTS is comparable to any other simulators elsewhere in the world be it the one used for Euro fighter-Typhoon or the F35-JSF of USA in terms of technology. With the completion of IOC /FOC for LCA and its induction into the IAF in the near future, RTS takes up the role of a full-fledged mission simulator meeting the training needs of the squadron pilots with near replica cockpit of the squadron standard aircraft.


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## sudhir007

Mithai for every LCA lover

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## sms

Can some one post pictures or video link for IOC ceremony?


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## sudhir007

India's LCA moment arrives - The Times of India

BANGALORE: At 10.30am Monday, all eyes will be trained on Bangalore's skies as India's first homegrown aircraft powers out on its maiden journey. The indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), vilified for more than 20 years, will take off on completely Indian wings and many prayers.

It will be a historic moment for the Indian aerospace industry and a proud day for aerospace city Bangalore.
Defence minister A K Antony, his ministry, the defence top brass and a battery of aerospace experts will witness the launch at the HAL airport. The aircraft, costing Rs 17,000 cr, will be flown by an IAF test pilot and is likely to be in the air for 20-35 minutes.

India's first supersonic fighter aircraft, though nurtured in Bangalore, will be flying on an American engine. Bangalore is central to its development &#8212;the aircraft was conceived, designed, developed, tested and certified by Aeronautical Development Agency, and manufactured and assembled by HAL.

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## SpArK

*IAF flies homegrown Tejas fighter jet for operational clearance​*

BANGALORE: *India joined the select club of countries making a fighter jet from scratch when Indian Air Force (IAF) flew for the first time the lightweight indigenous multi-role Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in a clear wintry sky for initial operational clearance (IOC). 
*

*Defence Minister A.K. Antony handed over the service certificate of the world's smallest military aircraft to Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik in the presence of top defence and government officials. *


The supersonic fourth generation fighter will form a 200-strong fleet for the IAF to replace the ageing Russian-made MiG-21 fleet and increase the squadron strength as a potent strike force by 2012. 

"This is the first time an indigenously designed and developed military fighter aircraft has been certified for air force operations," state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official K. Jayaprakash Rao told IANS here. 

The IOC involves specific process, including validation tests to determine the aircraft's various operational functions, including avionics, subsystems, thrust, aerodynamics, propulsion and radar. 

*The certificate was given by the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) of the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac), a lab of the defence research organisation. 
*

The fly-by-wire Tejas, which was beset chronic delays and cost overruns, has been developed by the state-run Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA) and manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore in partnership with a host of public-private aerospace firms. 

The successive delays caused by multiple factors, including sanctions by the US over a decade ago against India for conducting the second nuclear test in May 1998, led the project cost to rise to a whopping Rs.5,778 crore from the initial estimate of Rs.3,300 crore in the mid-1980s. 

*"This is a historic day for the burgeoning Indian aerospace industry and military aviation, as IOC signifies a major milestone in the design and development of the LCA ," Rao said on the margins of the event. *



*"Initially pilots fly four aircraft to check all its parametres, including flight controls, Mach speed and weaponisation for final operational clearance (FOC) and induction into the fleet as frontline fighter jets ," a senior air force official told IANS. *



*"The majestic display of the lean-and-mean flying machine demonstrated the integration of all sensors and weapons, besides safety and reliability within the specified flight envelope," Rao noted. *

The ADA and HAL conducted 1,500 test flights involving 11 aircraft, including five prototypes in the past decade, after its maiden flight Jan 4, 2001 as a technology demonstrator. 

Under the limited series production, HAL is manufacturing eight aircraft for clearance flights and will take up the air force's initial order to deliver 20 jets to form the first Tejas squadron. It will be based at the Sulur air base near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu. 

The IAF has also placed an additional order in 2010 for 20 more Tejas for the second squadron to be raised at Kayathir near Tuticorin in the southern state where the air force is setting up a new base this decade. 

IAF flies homegrown Tejas fighter jet for operational clearance - The Economic Times


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## SpArK




----------



## GORKHALI

Latest News Video : Tejas to get IOC on Jan 10


----------



## SpArK

Oh god ... *together we made it*.....​YouTube - Linkin Park - We Made It (feat. Busta Rhymes) - Official Music Video

*Together we made it 
We made it even though we had our backs
Up against the wall 
Forever we waited 

And they told us we were never gonna
Get it all ...we took it on the road..on the road...on the road...

​*

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## SpArK




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## IndianArmy

So what is the designation given to LCA tejas?? HF??


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## GORKHALI




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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

A.K. ANTONY said it is estimated that INDIA needs around 200 tejas MK2.


----------



## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

switch on to DD news they are showing few clippings from bangalore of the ceremony.
cmon guys switch it on dont miss it, they are showing live trial run of tejas on DD news.


----------



## SpArK

Live now..

Doordarshan News Live webcast

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

5 mins to go for the start of the flying display

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## SpArK




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## SpArK




----------



## kish

FLYING MACHINE said:


> arey yaar!just put him in ignore list na!he's not even worthwhile to reply.



right dude ,, no one should reply atjr .. 

more u will reply more he will troll ,,, i request everyone not toreply him .....


----------



## Fireurimagination

IAF test flies homegrown Tejas fighter jet - The Economic Times

BANGALORE: India joined the select club of countries making a fighter jet from scratch when Indian Air Force (IAF) flew for the first time the lightweight indigenous multi-role Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in a clear wintry sky for initial operational clearance (IOC).

Defence Minister A.K. Antony handed over the service certificate of the world's smallest military aircraft to Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik in the presence of top defence and government officials.

The supersonic fourth generation fighter will form a 200-strong fleet for the IAF to replace the ageing Russian-made MiG-21 fleet and increase the squadron strength as a potent strike force by 2012.

"This is the first time an indigenously designed and developed military fighter aircraft has been certified for air force operations," state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official K. Jayaprakash Rao told IANS here.

The IOC involves specific process, including validation tests to determine the aircraft's various operational functions, including avionics, subsystems, thrust, aerodynamics, propulsion and radar.

The certificate was given by the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) of the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac), a lab of the defence research organisation.

The fly-by-wire Tejas, which was beset chronic delays and cost overruns, has been developed by the state-run Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA) and manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore in partnership with a host of public-private aerospace firms.

The successive delays caused by multiple factors, including sanctions by the US over a decade ago against India for conducting the second nuclear test in May 1998, led the project cost to rise to a whopping Rs.5,778 crore from the initial estimate of Rs.3,300 crore in the mid-1980s.

"This is a historic day for the burgeoning Indian aerospace industry and military aviation, as IOC signifies a major milestone in the design and development of the LCA ," Rao said on the margins of the event.

"Initially pilots fly four aircraft to check all its parametres, including flight controls, Mach speed and weaponisation for final operational clearance (FOC) and induction into the fleet as frontline fighter jets ," a senior air force official told IANS.

"The majestic display of the lean-and-mean flying machine demonstrated the integration of all sensors and weapons, besides safety and reliability within the specified flight envelope," Rao noted.

The ADA and HAL conducted 1,500 test flights involving 11 aircraft, including five prototypes in the past decade, after its maiden flight Jan 4, 2001 as a technology demonstrator.

Under the limited series production, HAL is manufacturing eight aircraft for clearance flights and will take up the air force's initial order to deliver 20 jets to form the first Tejas squadron. It will be based at the Sulur air base near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu.

The IAF has also placed an additional order in 2010 for 20 more Tejas for the second squadron to be raised at Kayathir near Tuticorin in the southern state where the air force is setting up a new base this decade.


----------



## luckyyy

ADA director PS Subramanyam said that they are developing a new variant of the present LCA by 2014-15 and *the fighter jet will be fully indigenous in five years time.*


----------



## doctor_who

which engines does these handed over lca cARRY ?


----------



## jha

ACM press cinference going on..

Doordarshan News Live webcast


----------



## jha

NDTV also has live going on..

NDTV 24x7: Live TV - Watch Live TV Free - Free Live TV on NDTV

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## jha

doctor_who said:


> which engines does these handed over lca cARRY ?



General Electric F404 engine..


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## Gabbar

jha said:


> General Electric F404 engine..



I thought it was F414.


----------



## SpArK

Gabbar said:


> I thought it was F414.



Nope we have nt yet started working on the integration of 414s yet. 
Initial 20 or more which are going to be based in sulur will indeed fly on 404s.


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## The King in the North

SpArK said:


> Nope we have nt yet started working on the integration of 414s yet.
> Initial 20 or more which are going to be based in sulur will indeed fly on 404s.



so will these ones get upgraded to 414 after integration for mk 2 is complete???


----------



## Gabbar

SpArK said:


> Nope we have nt yet started working on the integration of 414s yet.
> Initial 20 or more which are going to be based in sulur will indeed fly on 404s.



*



The government had a couple of months ago chosen GE-F414 as the new engine for future LCAs after rejecting its competitor Eurojet's EJ200 engine. 

Click to expand...

*IAF inducts Tejas, the first indigenous LCA - Hindustan Times


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## Gabbar

Good lord.........48 people viewing this thread.


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## IndianArmy

Finally India Proves all the Critics Wrong and Hands over The Tejas To the Indian Air force, A Proud Moment Indeed.... Has anyone any Idea what number is it designated with HF-? Tejas


----------



## SpArK

The King in the North said:


> so will these ones get upgraded to 414 after integration for mk 2 is complete???



We have bought some 40+ odd 404 engines.. 
So IMO one squadron will be flying with 404 and future ones with414 .. or if we are lucky enough Kaveri-Snecma..

LCAs with 3 different engines flying for the country is a possibility.


----------



## sms

Gabbar said:


> Good lord.........48 people viewing this thread.



Count dropped to 43... you are scaring them LOL.


----------



## Guynextdoor

Did you guys read today's trashy TOI article on front page on 'maiden flight' of Tejas today? The clowns can't even get the IOC part right. They have no f**ing clue of what today's milestone is.


----------



## Guynextdoor

FLYING MACHINE said:


> World-Beaters:The fly-by-wire FCS will take
> India to new heights


*I hope the lockheed guys licking our a$$ to buy F 16 etc. are escorted to toilets with watchful eyes--hell we ought to install CCTVs in the commodes they take a dump in. We've gotta keep them waiting for days for every single appointment and that shouldn't even be the beginning of what we do to them.*

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## Lord Of Gondor

Proud moment for all!
Jai Hind!


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

Bharadwaj said:


> Proud moment for all!
> Jai Hind!



jai HAL , Jai ADA, Jai NAL , Jai DRDO.
and finally a big JAIIIIIIIIIII HIND.


wish i could have seen faces of all those who were saying TEJAS would never be Inducted and would be scraped.


----------



## Guynextdoor

SpArK said:


> We have bought some 40+ odd 404 engines..
> So IMO one squadron will be flying with 404 and future ones with414 .. or if we are lucky enough Kaveri-Snecma..
> 
> LCAs with 3 different engines flying for the country is a possibility.


Methinks the decision to use the 414s for Mk2 has already been taken. But Tejas will flight test kaveri. Kaveri seems to be the preferred choice for MCA. 

Guys I'm right next door to Hal but can't get a view there.


----------



## sms

PRACTICAL PATRIOT said:


> jai HAL , Jai ADA, Jai NAL , Jai DRDO.
> and finally a big JAIIIIIIIIIII HIND.
> 
> 
> wish i could have seen faces of all those who were saying TEJAS would never be Inducted and would be scraped.



No need to flame mate. Let's enjoy our proud moment!!


----------



## jha

Gabbar said:


> IAF inducts Tejas, the first indigenous LCA - Hindustan Times



That engine is for MK-II ...

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## GORKHALI

55people watching this thread lol so guys watch your step wahahahaha


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## SpArK

*'Tejas Not Fourth Gen At Present': IAF Chief*






Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today said, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up. There are several refinements required. We need full compliance, after all we have waited a long time."

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/01/tejas-not-fourth-gen-at-present-iaf.html


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *'Tejas Not Fourth Gen At Present': IAF Chief*
> 
> 
> Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today said, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up. There are several refinements required. We need full compliance, after all we have waited a long time."
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: 'Tejas Not Fourth Gen At Present': IAF Chief



Offcourse it is not, need to integrate the BVR etc. in order to be a 4 th gen jet.

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## jha

SpArK said:


> *'Tejas Not Fourth Gen At Present': IAF Chief*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today said, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up. There are several refinements required. We need full compliance, after all we have waited a long time."
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: 'Tejas Not Fourth Gen At Present': IAF Chief



Bl00dy hell..Twisting the words..
All he said was that LCA is not upto GRIPEN-NG now..But it will become at par and even better it..

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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> Offcourse it is not, need to integrate the BVR etc. in order to be a 4 th gen jet.



BVR Testing is a Part of FOC.... Tejas Is a BVR Fighter , And will be officially a 4th gen aircraft after FOC trials it seems...


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^^^^^^Damn! **** Aroor almost gave me a heart attack!!!!


----------



## SpArK

Post clearance, the LCA will now take several flying missions and after that it will have to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) to be finally inducted into operational service, which is likely to happen by the end of 2012, Ministry officials said.

The IAF has plans to deploy the aircraft at one of its bases in Bangalore to do away with the "teething problems" in association with its designers and manufacturers, both of whom are based out of Bangalore.


Now the IAF intends to induct two squadrons in IOC mode by the middle of 2011. The IAF had first placed the orders for 40 LCAs in March 2005.

*The first 40 LCAs will be powered by the American General Electric GE-F404 engines*. A total of 99 such engines are to be purchased under the deal with General Electric. *IAF also has plans to induct five more squadrons (100 aircraft) in the coming years but with a more powerful engine, the announcement for which came in 2009.*

The IAF may ultimately have around 200 LCAs (10 squadrons) in its fleet, 



IAF inducts Tejas, the first indigenous LCA - Hindustan Times

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## jha

IndianArmy said:


> BVR Testing is a Part of FOC.... Tejas Is a BVR Fighter , And will be officially a 4th gen aircraft after FOC trials it seems...





Bharadwaj said:


> ^^^^^^^^^Damn! **** Aroor almost gave me a heart attack!!!!



Shiv Aroor is getting worse each day..He is another Headline loving journalist..

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## IND151

* India's LCA moment arrives*
Jan 10, 2011, 03.57am IST

*



Article




Tags:Tejas|Light Combat Aircraft|Indian Aerospace Industry|AK Antony


BANGALORE: At 10.30am Monday, all eyes will be trained on Bangalore's skies as India's first homegrown aircraft powers out on its maiden journey. The indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), vilified for more than 20 years, will take off on completely Indian wings and many prayers. 

It will be a historic moment for the Indian aerospace industry and a proud day for aerospace city Bangalore. 
Defence minister A K Antony, his ministry, the defence top brass and a battery of aerospace experts will witness the launch at the HAL airport. The aircraft, costing Rs 17,000 cr, will be flown by an IAF test pilot and is likely to be in the air for 20-35 minutes. 

India's first supersonic fighter aircraft, though nurtured in Bangalore, will be flying on an American engine. Bangalore is central to its development &#8212;the aircraft was conceived, designed, developed, tested and certified by Aeronautical Development Agency, and manufactured and assembled by HAL.

Click to expand...

*




http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-LCA-moment-arrives/articleshow/7250410.cms


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> Post clearance, the LCA will now take several flying missions and after that it will have to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) to be finally inducted into operational service, which is likely to happen by the end of 2012, Ministry officials said.
> ]



Why IAF need 2 long years for Final operational clearance?

Only Angle of attack+ BVR integration is left , right?

Any experts please?


----------



## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Why IAF need 2 long years for Final operational clearance?
> 
> Only Angle of attack+ BVR integration is left , right?
> 
> Any experts please?



Engine integration is also there.. for the 414s.


----------



## Mani2020

So have they got clearance or will it be announced after the air show?


----------



## GORKHALI

jha said:


> Bl00dy hell..Twisting the words..
> All he said was that LCA is not upto GRIPEN-NG now..But it will become at par and even better it..



yea! even i heard in Newsx just now ,and all he said that its not upto Gripen NG STANDARD BUT IT WILL BE COMPARABLE OR EVEN BETTER SOON..oh!!aroor ji this is the limit of non sense.

Also it means Goodbye to Gripen NG ..:

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

Mani2020 said:


> So have they got clearance or will it be announced after the air show?



defence minister A.K.Antony already handed over Initial clearance Certificate to air chief marshal.


----------



## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> Engine integration is also there.. for the 414s.



arey!he's talking about Mk1 FOC !!


----------



## Guynextdoor

Aroor can be a clown dude


----------



## Mani2020

Congrats to indian members

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

SpArK said:


> Engine integration is also there.. for the 414s.



414 are going to be used on MARK 2 so why don we need to do that for FOC of mark 1?
mark 1 is going to use 404 only as far as i saw and heard in news.


----------



## SpArK

PRACTICAL PATRIOT said:


> 414 are going to be used on MARK 2 so why don we need to do that for FOC of mark 1?
> mark 1 is going to use 404 only as far as i saw and heard in news.



414s could even find its way in Mk1..

A total of 100 mk1s with 414s .. well i am not sure.. but lets hear it from experts.


----------



## rockstarIN

PRACTICAL PATRIOT said:


> 414 are going to be used on MARK 2 so why don we need to do that for FOC of mark 1?
> mark 1 is going to use 404 only as far as i saw and heard in news.



I think for FOC, it will be,

1. BVR integration with the Elta Radar and its extensive trails.

2. Angle of attack

3. Orientation training programmes and simulation training for pilots.

4. Checking the fighter in dog fights with other fighters, i.e Mig-21, 29 & Mirage200H.

5. Accurate bombing mission trails with GBs (by IAF)

Anything else?


----------



## Mani2020

what are the specs of current radar used in LCA?


----------



## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

SpArK said:


> 414s could even find its way in Mk1..
> 
> A total of 100 mk1s with 414s .. well i am not sure.. but lets hear it from experts.



no just 40 mk1 will be made. A.k. antony said we will have 40 mk1 and need around 200 mk2 tejas about mk2 he didnt say anything for sure just hinted that we need but avoid saying if we will build that many.


----------



## jha

One Journalist asked ACM Naik that what are the other aircrafts to which LCA was comparable..? 

And he answered " Only one, Gripen -NG in single engined aircraft . We are not upto them but will be on par and even better them in coming years ".

Now its on you what you read between the lines..


----------



## Guynextdoor

SpArK said:


> Engine integration is also there.. for the 414s.


Nope, the 414 is meant for Mk2 and not Mk1

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## satishkumarcsc

jha said:


> One Journalist asked ACM Naik that what are the other aircrafts to which LCA was comparable..? And he answered " Only one, Gripen -NG in single engined aircraft . We are not upto them but will be on par and even better them in coming years ".
> 
> Now its on you what you read between the lines..



Now you want people to jump here and troll?


----------



## Guynextdoor

jha said:


> One Journalist asked ACM Naik that what are the other aircrafts to which LCA was comparable..?
> 
> And he answered " Only one, Gripen -NG in single engined aircraft . We are not upto them but will be on par and even better them in coming years ".
> 
> Now its on you what you read between the lines..


So basically he's drawing a compasrion between MMRCA and LCA, & it doesn't look very unfavorable at all. Nice.


----------



## IND151

* simulator for TEJAS *
*



Flight simulator 
To support the aircraft a dome-based Mission Simulator has been developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bangalore. It was inaugurated by deputy chief of air staff of Indian Air Force. It has been used to provide design support during the initial phase of LCA development in particular handling quality evaluation and planning and practicing mission profiles.

[edit]

Click to expand...

* *source wiki *


----------



## marcos98

NDTV REPORT:


http://khabar.ndtv.com/MoreVideos.aspx?sNm=Video&sSNm=News%20in%20video&video=186646&status=true

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## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> what are the specs of current radar used in LCA?



It is E/M 2032 MMR radar, have a range of 150 Km

In fact IsAF wanted to replace their SUFA radar (Northrop AN/APG-68(V)9 ) with Elta 2032, but Americans didn't agree..


----------



## jha

satishkumarcsc said:


> *Now you want people to jump here and troll?*



*Yes..Thats precisely my intention..

Nothing pleases me more than turning a sane thread into troll fest..:*


----------



## Mani2020

rockstar said:


> It is E/M 2032 MMR radar, have a range of 150 Km
> 
> In fact IsAF wanted to replace their SUFA radar (Northrop AN/APG-68(V)9 ) with Elta 2032, but Americans didn't agree..



These are the specs of original radar and can easily be available on wikipedia ,if i had to know about it i would simply had on wikipedia

As far as i know and many other indians also claim that it is not the basic one rather has some inputs by india and few changes are made to it,so i was asking for the specs of that 

And apart from the range i want to know about the number of targets it can track and the number of targets it can engage simultaneously plus the output power in watts


----------



## jha

> These are the specs of original radar and can easily be available on wikipedia ,if i had to know about it i would simply had on wikipedia



No one can give you the information which is not available online..



> As far as i know and many other indians also claim that it is not the basic one rather has some inputs by india and few changes are made to it,so i was asking for the specs of that



Yes..The radar is not El-2032. Instead it is a hybrid radar of Indian MMR and El-2032..


----------



## IND151

*LCA 'Tejas' all set for Initial Operational Clearance news	
*
10 January 2011	

*



Bangalore: India's prestigious indigenous fighter development programme crosses a historic milestone today with the 'Tejas' Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme achieving Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) status here.

Indian defence minister AK Antony will hand over the service certificate of the LCA to chief of air staff ,  air chief marshal PV Naik, which will allow the IAF to fly the LCA till Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is achieved and the multi-role fighter is inducted into operational service.
The FOC is hoped to be achieved by the end of 2012, officials said.

'The Tejas handing over will be another red letter day for the Indian aerospace industry, a decade after its first prototype made a maiden flight Jan 4, 2001,' former ADA director and the father figure of the LCA programme, Kota Harinarayan said.


With a mix of Mark I and II versions, the IAF eventually hopes to induct as many as 200 or 10 squadrons of these small size fighters into service.

The fly-by-wire supersonic fighter was developed over a decade by the state-run Aeronautical Defence Agency (ADA). It is manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) at Bangalore.

Click to expand...

* domain-b.com : LCA 'Tejas' all set for Initial Operational Clearance


----------



## rockstarIN

*Yes..The radar is not El-2032. Instead it is a hybrid radar of Indian MMR and El-2032.. *

Yes ..it is *HYBRID*, hardly any details available in outside regarding the additionals


----------



## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> These are the specs of original radar and can easily be available on wikipedia ,if i had to know about it i would simply had on wikipedia
> 
> As far as i know and many other indians also claim that it is not the basic one rather has some inputs by india and few changes are made to it,so i was asking for the specs of that
> 
> And apart from the range i want to know about the number of targets it can track and the number of targets it can engage simultaneously plus the output power in watts



Hardly you will get the details available except the basics. ELTA & IAI always keep it clasified, i.e range of their BVRs


----------



## IndianArmy

YouTube - LCA tejas Inducted into Indian Airforce

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## IndianArmy

YouTube - Tejas joins IAF today

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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> Bl00dy hell..Twisting the words..
> All he said was that LCA is not upto GRIPEN-NG now..But it will become at par and even better it..



Jha jii... is this what he said?? I knew the reports was screwed up...


----------



## SpArK

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/55334-lca-lsp-3-elta-radar-fly-today-8.html


----------



## marcos98

YouTube - India's first LCA 'Tejas' inducted in IAF

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## IND151

YouTube - India's first LCA 'Tejas' inducted in IAF


----------



## doctor_who

*some iaf top officals and whole media both have to act like jerk.*

why cant they just keep it secretive and why cant media just say whay they are saying without mixing hteir own dose of bullshyt.


----------



## marcos98

which helmet??


----------



## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Jha jii... is this what he said?? I knew the reports was screwed up...



Yes sir..

BTW At present, LCA is neither BVR capable nor can it drop PGMs . So, even i think its not a true 4 gen. aircraft and ACM will not be wrong if he says so. However after FOC this will be a first rate 4 gen. aircraft.


----------



## jha

from BR..

Height of cR@ppY Journalism..


----------



## jha

marcos98 said:


> which helmet??



DASH HMD...






BTW i hope we get something like this from our friend israel for FGFA and then AMCA..

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## marcos98

cleared.........


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


> DASH HMD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW i hope we get something like this from our friend israel for FGFA and then AMCA..



An EF HUD is more practical.


----------



## rockstarIN

^^

DASH is very good, toe to toe or even better than American JHMCS


----------



## marcos98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdSUkRYLAY
...the joy....

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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> An EF HUD is more practical.



Exactly but HUD is integrated tightly with cockpit.. so EF HUD is not alone enough... we need to master the entire package.. like guiding the missile with eyesight.. the latest technology breakthrough in EF


----------



## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Exactly but HUD is integrated tightly with cockpit.. so EF HUD is not alone enough... we need to master the entire package.. like guiding the missile with eyesight.. the latest technology breakthrough in EF



If EF is selected will the ToT cover know-how of HuD too??


----------



## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> Exactly but HUD is integrated tightly with cockpit.. so EF HUD is not alone enough... we need to master the entire package.. l*ike guiding the missile with eyesight.. the latest technology breakthrough in E*F



It is common now, since we have ELTA radar and possibly their Pythoon-5 + Derby with LCA, we ideally should use DASH, which is very good..


----------



## SpArK

YouTube - LCA Tejas IOC NDTV report.


----------



## jha

SpArK said:


> An EF HUD is more practical.



They are also toeing the same line..However the Elbit's seems to be more advanced, So why not go for the best.


----------



## jha

rockstar said:


> ^^
> 
> DASH is very good, toe to toe or even better than American JHMCS



Both are produced by Elbit. Systems, Israel. 

DASH was the company's first integrated helmet mounted display and sight system and is basis for much more advanced JHMCS.


----------



## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> If EF is selected will the ToT cover know-how of HuD too??



Not sure.. there cockpit is there Gem.. more advanced than any other fighter..


----------



## rockstarIN

I think there is basically few changes with both system as DASH is integrated most system with helmet itself but in American version, there is few differences, though DASH III is the base.

JHMCS is from Vision Systems International (VSI),a joint venture company formed by Rockwell Collins & Elbit


----------



## ganimi kawa

*And the Air Chief Clarifies..............*





> The day was not without controversy. IAF Chief was misunderstood as saying that it was not a Fourth Generation aircraft. *Air Chief Marshal PV Naik later clarified that it was a fourth generation aircraft. He said that some systems and maneuvers have to be finalized leading to the FOC*.





*Shiv Aroor ki aisi ki taisi!*

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## SpArK

YouTube - LCA Tejas joins IAF

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## SpArK

The designer talks about the comparison the chief has made and seems not so happy with it. Quite obvious.

Oiiii.. just noticed LCA gets IOC and i reach 8000 posts... IOC for me.


----------



## jack220

What is the specification of Tejas. What about its combat range with 4 BVR missile.


----------



## Capt.Popeye

SpArK said:


> The designer talks about the comparison the chief has made and seems not so happy with it. Quite obvious.
> 
> Oiiii.. just noticed LCA gets IOC and i reach 8000 posts... IOC for me.



More like FOC for you.
But for what?


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## IndianArmy

India's first light combat aircraft-India-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## sancho

Not a big deal for the world maybe, but a huge step for India, now we can party!

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## justanobserver

*Tejas gets operation clearance*








In a major military aviation milestone, Indias homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas on Monday secured the Initial Operation Clearance taking it a step closer towards induction into the IAF.

In a feat that came a decade after the multi-role LCA took to the skies, Defence Minister A.K. Antony handed over the IOC certificate to Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik at the HAL Airport here.

Mr. Antony said the IOC certification would facilitate delivery of the first lot of 20 production standard aircraft to the IAF with assured safety and specified performance before the end of the year.

This is only the semi-finals, Mr. Antony said, adding the LCA would enhance national security and build the countrys own fighter aircraft capabilities.

The IOC comes after over three decades of LCA development and research spearheaded by Aeronautical Development Agency, surmounting technology denial regimes.

The light-weight Tejas, presently powered by American GE-F404 engine, has been developed from the scratch, putting India in the select club of nations, including U.S., Russia, France and Britain.

The Flight Test phase of Tejas was initiated in January 2001 and it had completed 1,508 flight tests using various variants, including first two-seater trainer version.

Mr. Antony said, After crossing a number of challenges and accomplishing a significant series of milestones including weapon delivery, in over 1500 sorties, the country is poised for a major turning point with the declaration of the IOC.

The development of the aircraft, primarily to replace the ageing Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter jets, was affected by the U.S. sanctions in 1998 that led to delay in importing some items and developing alternative equipment, since vendor identification and development to production cycle took time.


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## my name is arya

well guys we took first step but we have to move lots of steps 

i will wait for agni 5 

then we will party


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## pulsar220

for indians 





for our critics


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

In a major military aviation milestone, Indias homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas on Monday secured the Initial Operation Clearance taking it a step closer towards induction into the IAF.

In a feat that came a decade after the multi-role LCA took to the skies, Defence Minister A.K. Antony handed over the IOC certificate to Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik at the HAL Airport here.

Mr. Antony said the IOC certification would facilitate delivery of the first lot of 20 production standard aircraft to the IAF with assured safety and specified performance before the end of the year.

This is only the semi-finals, Mr. Antony said, adding the LCA would enhance national security and build the countrys own fighter aircraft capabilities.

The IOC comes after over three decades of LCA development and research spearheaded by Aeronautical Development Agency, surmounting technology denial regimes.

The light-weight Tejas, presently powered by American GE-F404 engine, has been developed from the scratch, putting India in the select club of nations, including U.S., Russia, France and Britain.

The Flight Test phase of Tejas was initiated in January 2001 and it had completed 1,508 flight tests using various variants, including first two-seater trainer version.

Mr. Antony said, After crossing a number of challenges and accomplishing a significant series of milestones including weapon delivery, in over 1500 sorties, the country is poised for a major turning point with the declaration of the IOC. 

The development of the aircraft, primarily to replace the ageing Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter jets, was affected by the U.S. sanctions in 1998 that led to delay in importing some items and developing alternative equipment, since vendor identification and development to production cycle took time.


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## madooxno9

TEJAS


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## sancho

Mani2020 said:


> And apart from the range i want to know about the number of targets it can track and the number of targets it can engage simultaneously plus the output power in watts



From the older brochure:



> *Performance*
> Multimode Airborne Fire Control Radar
> Air-to-Air detection and tracking range up to 80 NM (~148Km).
> Air-to-Ground mapping, High Resolution Mapping
> and surface target detection up to 80 NM (~148Km).
> Air-to-Sea detection, tracking and classification up
> to 160 NM (~296Km).
> 
> *Physical Characteristics*
> Weight: 72-100 Kg depending on antenna size.
> Power: 2-3 KVA. depending on Transmitter configuration.
> Antenna Size: adapted to aircraft nose limitations.



http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/6/27546.pdf


Not sure about the number of targets, but the 2052 AESA officially is given with up to 64 targets, which is very high and could give a hint. The Israelis really know how to make radars and I hope we will choose them as the co-development partner for MK2.


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## Hulk

It's a very good news, now next milestone is integration of PGM and BVR.


----------



## MST

jha said:


> One Journalist asked ACM Naik that what are the other aircrafts to which LCA was comparable..?
> 
> And he answered " Only one, Gripen -NG in single engined aircraft . We are not upto them but will be on par *and even better them in coming years ".*
> 
> Now its on you what you read between the lines..



What I read between the lines is that the chances of Gripen NG winning MMRCA is now very less


----------



## SpArK

*IAF Grudgingly Accepts Tejas IOC, Wants 83 Mk-IIs​*




On a painfully sunny day at Bangalore's old HAL airport, India's Tejas light combat aircraft achieved initial operational clearance (IOC) today for induction into the Indian Air Force. With two aircraft to be delivered to the IAF in June and two more by December, the IAF for the first time has full access to the aircraft. But IAF chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik was visibly more subdued than any of the others today, and despite the supposed sanctity of the ceremony (for some idiotic reason, an MLA and an MP were felicitated instead of the scientists), he chose to give voice to his irritation a few yards away from two Tejases gleaming in the sun -- a fighter and a trainer.

"There are some areas where work still needs to be done. There are aspects that need to be improved. We have agreed to a list of concessions for IOC. But we are sure that ADA will fulfil those by June, with full operational clearance in a couple of years. The refinements we are looking for include wake penetration tests, all weather clearance, lightning clearance, etc. Some parameters have only been partly tested. After all, we've waited a long time for the Tejas. We don't want a partial platform. We want everything fully operational," he said.

Shortly after two Tejases roared into the sky for a quick flight display, Naik went on to describe the Tejas as a "MiG-21++" fighter, and went on to say, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up, but at present it is not." He also indicated that the Tejas Mk-II would not only be powered by the F414 engine, but would incorporate airframe design changes and newer avionics. A statement issued today by ADA today said that the IAF had projected a need for 83 Tejas Mk-II aircraft (which would give the IAF a fleet of 123 aircraft in total -- far less than projected). The first flight of the Mk-II is scheduled for December 2014. Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent according to the HAL chief.

HAL chairman Ashok Nayak said that the company's capacity to churn out ten Tejas fighters a year could be ramped up if the need arose -- current capacity jointly shared by the Hawk and Tejas lines could be made into a dedicated Tejas line, he said. The unit cost of a Tejas will be between Rs 180-200 crore.

ADA said in a statement that the following would bridge the gap between initial and final operational clearance: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC).


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## SpArK




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## 1ndy

it's not a 4th Gen fighter craft: IAF Chief


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> "There are some areas where work still needs to be done. There are aspects that need to be improved. We have agreed to a list of concessions for IOC. But we are sure that ADA will fulfil those by June, with full operational clearance in a couple of years. The refinements we are looking for include wake penetration tests, all weather clearance, lightning clearance, etc. Some parameters have only been partly tested. After all, we've waited a long time for the Tejas. We don't want a partial platform. We want everything fully operational," he said.




Man still lot of testing is pending... so FCS has to be released for More AoA and G's + weapon testings... 

I have a feeling FOC will take some more time..

Is MK-2 work started or it will be taken after FOC?


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## sancho

> A statement issued today by ADA today said that the IAF had projected a need for 83 Tejas Mk-II aircraft



Kind of strange number isn't? LCA MK1 squadron has 20 fighters, MMRCA 18 and this? Also the engine deal was for 107 x GE 414, so what happen to the other 24?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Kind of strange number isn't? LCA MK1 squadron has 20 fighters, MMRCA 18 and this? Also the engine deal was for 107 x GE 414, so what happen to the other 24?



Might be as benny said.. Are they plugging it into MK1 structure itself?? 

or it could be for Navy as well


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007

YouTube - India's first LCA 'Tejas' inducted in IAF!

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## Paan Singh

if its not an 4 gen ac,then wat is this??


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## ganimi kawa

*Here is The Greatest LCA video ever* from the Tarmak 007 (courtesy ADA) .

To everyone who is reading this post; please go through this video!


Celebrating Tejas IOC

It has-

1. Drop tank jettison trial.

2.* CMDS release trial.*

3.R 73 release.

4.1000 lb weapon drop.

5.LSP 5 maiden flight.

6.Cold weather trial at Leh.

7.*MMR integration on Tejas.*

8.*LDP interation on tejas.*

9.HMDS integration (with *closest ever shots of LCA pilots with DASH Helmet!)*

10.Formation flying by 5 LCAs.


*In short, it's a jingo's dream come true!*

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## shrivatsa

you beat me to it


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## ganimi kawa

shrivatsa said:


> *you beat me to it*



I think you too were mesmerized by the Tejas; hence the delay in posting here!

BTW, if everyone who reads my post watches the video, we are going to have a huge no. of happy Indian Jingoes all over the world!

*A million thanks to Mr. Krishnan of Tarmak, who actually reports the real news and not cheap sensational headlines like Aroor et al.*

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## sancho

1ndy said:


> it's not a 4th Gen fighter craft: IAF Chief



Check the LCA thread for his real statement, it's just bad reporting from livefist.


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## shrivatsa

Really i was watching headlines today and there comes mister shiv with all 2 decades in development bullshit.....yup Tarmak has done a great job in showing the hardwork that our scientist and engineers had put to tejas hats off to them

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## Just Yash

IAF doesn't seems to be happy with Tejas MK1, as IAF chef said " Tejas is not 4th gen fighter yet & There are some area which still they have to work" !!!!!!


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## 1ndy

Naik sir wants a plane that can fly and dive into sea like subs


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## luckyyy

Just Yash said:


> IAF doesn't seems to be happy with Tejas MK1, as IAF chef said " Tejas is not 4th gen fighter yet & There are some area which still they have to work" !!!!!!



i too see it on TV , there was no joy on his face.......


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> i too see it on TV , there was no joy on his face.......



Yeah ... i guess he was not happy at IOC as still lot of testing is pending.. or he wants to keep the team on toes.. but i can gurantee that he has lot of faith on this platform...


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## ajay

Some Tejas highlights:


&#8226;Culmination of decades of work by Indian Defence Scientists and technicians.
&#8226;Tejas will initially form one squadron (20 aircraft) in the IAF.
&#8226;Conceived and launched in 1983 with a meagre funding of Rs. 560 crore
&#8226;Tejas' engine, radar, some navigation technologies and some display systems are imported. But officials at the ADA asserted ahead of the launch that the design, development, testing, certification and mastery of the system engineering is completely Indian. 
&#8226;Officials say in another five years, Tejas will be completely indigenous and the higher variant will be ready by 2014.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> ."There are some areas where work still needs to be done. There are aspects that need to be improved. *We have agreed to a list of concessions for IOC. But we are sure that ADA will fulfil those by June, with full operational clearance in a couple of years.* The refinements we are looking for include* wake penetration tests, all weather clearance, lightning clearance, etc. Some parameters have only been partly tested.* After all, we've waited a long time for the Tejas. *We don't want a partial platform. *We want everything fully operational," he said.
> 
> Tejas Mk-II would not only be powered by the F414 engine, but would incorporate airframe design changes and newer avionics. A statement issued today by ADA today said that the IAF had projected a need for 83 Tejas Mk-II aircraft (which would give the IAF a fleet of 123 aircraft in total -- far less than projected).
> 
> The unit cost of a Tejas will be between Rs 180-200 crore.
> 
> ADA said in a statement that the following would bridge the gap between initial and final operational clearance: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC).




????

so , the ACM not happy..


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## marcos98

Congratulations ADA and Team Tejas on this Fantastic Achievement , Kudos !


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## 1ndy

Congratulations team LCA...
LCA is now available on FGFS...  fly this awesome machine on your computer...

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## ganimi kawa

*A collection of pics of LCA trainer version. 

She is quite a stunner, isn't she?
*































And here is a comparison of standard and trainer version.







*I hope the MK2 version retains the curves à la N-LCA! Cause that's how we like 'em, curvalicious!*

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## IndianArmy

Altogether a Proud Moment for India, Proved all Critics wrong, And Why Not when Our Engineers have Given up there Life To give the Nation Indigenous Wings... This Day would be marked For Obvious reason..... Have sent a Strong message to the World, India has Done it Finally... 

AMCA The Next Target, Fixed By ADA and HAL.... Hope this time they Set the Wings Well In Advance


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## ANG

Hi, congratulations. This is a proud moment for India. Yes the project was delayed, but nevertheless India has made great strides and should be proud of this achievement. Take care.

BBC News - Fit to fly: The Tejas, first made-in-India fighter jet

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## MAFIAN GOD

Kudos to every Indian on the forum.


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## tallboy123

cool.............


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## Imran Khan

CONGS one step more .


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## I FLY HIGH

tallboy123 said:


> Well u know,all these comments were worth for u before Jan 10..
> But now,after Jan 10,these comments has no value..
> 
> Finally We did it...
> Now Burn....


 Burning on Tejas , first look at the performance of your plane , still no nevegation system , no armament , I dont know how many more years required for that ? It is only to make you people happy , so now close your eyes and be happy that you have a third generation plane . I think your government is making a lot fool of yourself . This plane should have been cleared for operation on first of april. Dear it is a long way for it to be operational.


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## tallboy123




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## I FLY HIGH

tallboy123 said:


>


Still why you need years to induct it in IAF? Dear jxx is also flying and delivering proto bombs , but it cannot be operational in PLAAF. Operational JF17 Thunder means it is already inducted in PAF. Operational means ready for combat.


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## casual

are you seriously going to play 31million usd for this?

buy more f16s


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## Windjammer

BANGALORE: After a tortuous journey of 27 years, with over 1,500 flight-tests and almost 3,000% jump in overall developmental costs, the much-touted but long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has finally taken the first step towards induction as a supersonic fighter into IAF. 

Amid much fanfare and back-slapping, defence minister A K Antony handed over the Tejas initial operational clearance (IOC) certificate to IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik at a ceremony here on Monday. 

The IOC basically means that the largely homegrown fighter is now fully airworthy, in its initial configuration, to be flown by IAF pilots but not all weapon and other systems have been fully integrated into the platform. That will happen only by December 2012 when the single-engine, multi-role fighter gets the final operational clearance (FOC). 

"Today is a historic day...A state-of-the-art indigenous combat aircraft will go a long way in enhancing national security,'' said Antony, showering praise on the entire LCA team led by Aeronautical Development Agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. 

The euphoria was somewhat justified, given that the supersonic fighter has been built from scratch in a country with an extremely poor defence-industrial base and in the face of international sanctions for several years. 

But there has to be a reality check, even if it seems harsh. Even Antony admitted that Tejas had reached just "the semi-final stage'' at this point. As was first reported by TOI earlier, the overall developmental cost of the Tejas project, including the naval variant and trainer, has zoomed up to Rs 17,269 crore from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme. 

Moreover, the real induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013, with the first two squadrons becoming fully operational at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) by 2015 or so, a full three decades after the LCA project was first sanctioned to replace the ageing MiG-21s. 

That's not all. The first test-flight of the Tejas Mark-II version, with more powerful American GE F-414 engines, will be possible only by December 2014, with its production beginning in June 2016. And even then, the Tejas will just be a medium to low-end fighter, not a high-end air dominance one. 

ACM Naik, in fact, described Tejas as a "MiG-21 plus-plus'', and made it clear that it was not even a fourth-generation fighter at present but would be in the future, indicating it will primarily be used to plug the gap in numbers. 

Consequently, India's frontline combat fighters will the 270 Russian-origin Sukhoi-30MKIs already being inducted for around $12 billion, the 126 new medium multi-role combat aircraft to be acquired in the $10.4 billion MMRCA project and the 250 to 300 fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be built with Russia in the gigantic $35 billion project. 

Yes, there is no getting away from the critical fact that India has to be self-reliant in military hardware and software if it wants to emerge as a superpower on the global stage. But the Tejas saga puts serious question marks on the defence indigenisation model being followed. The fighter, for instance, is still only around 60% indigenous despite being 27 years in the making. It, for example, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989.
27 years, 3000% cost hike later, Tejas takes off - The Times of India



Read more: 27 years, 3000% cost hike later, Tejas takes off - The Times of India 27 years, 3000% cost hike later, Tejas takes off - The Times of India


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

they'll only induct 40? 

hmm..

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## Windjammer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they'll only induct 40?
> 
> hmm..



Another Arjun in making. !!!!

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## ajtr

IAF has been forced to by this just for the sake of the pride of HAL/ADA.ultimately LCA gonna end up directly from production line to junkyard and once in year india will see it flying past janpath on every 26th january.

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## ajtr

Windjammer said:


> Another Arjun in making. !!!!


rather HF-marut.

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## 1000VA

@Windjammerji
If you want to criticize LCA please start a constructive one please don't make a hot-shot heading and pls pls do not bring Caste and Religion here. 
Thnx


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they'll only induct 40?
> 
> hmm..



They"ll probably be replacing the non-Bison MIG-21s numbering 80-90.

Indian Air Force phasing out MiG-21s: Antony



> The IAF currently operates a little over 200 MiG-21s. Of these, 121 have been upgraded to the Bison version and are likely to fly till 2017, an IAF source said.
> 
> The remaining 80-90 aircraft will be phased out in the next two-three years, the source added, requesting anonymity.


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## flameboard

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they'll only induct 40?
> 
> hmm..



They need to save their face from embarrassment that's why the work is still on going. A few will be inducted and will only be used when there is are loads of aircraft around to protect the little Tejas. Indian doesn't need the Tejas everyone know is it. They just want to get it operational so they can can rid of it, kind of pointless but that's what happens when you put your national pride behind a project/ product that hasn't even been completed.

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## Windjammer

ajtr said:


> rather HF-marut.



Thank you for bringing that up since, ironically India has been manufacturing fighter aircrafts since the 60s, Ajeet, HF-24 Maurat spear heading this detail. Yet, the LCA, has taken almost three decades to enter production.


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## Windjammer

1000VA said:


> @Windjammerji
> If you want to criticize LCA please start a constructive one please don't make a hot-shot heading and pls pls do not bring Caste and Religion here.
> Thnx



No disrespect to any caste or religion, since i don't consider my self a superior being.


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## Trisonics

LOL at the title...going by WJ's concern's what next? lack of toilets in the LCA? 

before IOC "teja is a paper plane".. "let teja get inducted first"..lol now: teja is a low caste plane

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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> *A collection of pics of LCA trainer version.
> 
> She is quite a stunner, isn't she?
> *



To be honest, I like the single seat more, because the twin seat looks kind off short when you compare them. Especially the location of the rear gear "looks" kind of strange, but I guess that has to do with the high position of the co-pilots cockpit.

*Gripen D:*





I know the Gripen is longer, but the difference between single and twin seat doesn't seems to be that big right?

*Mirage 2000:*


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## casual

can you believe this little paper tiger costs 31million usd per plane?


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## CardSharp

This is news?


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## GareebNawaz

casual said:


> are you seriously going to play 31million usd for this?
> 
> I don't know if it was this thread or some other but a fellow pakistani member said that USA was selling its old 4th 4.5 gen aircraft to India like F16 block 60 and block 70!! lol we will take his advice and not go for your outdtated f-16s........


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## GareebNawaz

DEL double post


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## Nemesis101

Nothing to argue about...we really deserve this...but giving it some stupid name is not good...like pakistan can be called something else.you know what i mean.so i think better don't do that.


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## satishkumarcsc

Hey it is still better than the aircraft it is supposed to replace.


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## Nemesis101

satishkumarcsc said:


> Hey it is still better than the aircraft it is supposed to replace.



yaaa thats true but 

*"with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989."*

this really hurts....


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## casual

should have bought more f16s


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## satishkumarcsc

Nemesis101 said:


> yaaa thats true but
> 
> *"with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989."*
> 
> this really hurts....



Hey French tried for 20 years to develop the M-88 engine. And still it gives only 85kn thrust. We are talking about Snecma here. Remember? Rafale first flew with F 404 engines.

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## satishkumarcsc

casual said:


> should have bought more f16s



Why would we have to buy more F 16s which our rival has been using for more than 3 decades? Only a nincompoop would.


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## casual

satishkumarcsc said:


> Why would we have to buy more F 16s which our rival has been using for more than 3 decades? Only a nincompoop would.



compares f16 and LCA side by side

ok whatever you say


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## satishkumarcsc

casual said:


> compares f16 and LCA side by side
> 
> ok whatever you say



The F 16 right now costs more than $60 mil an airframe and with the weapons come upto $80 mil. I rather go for an F 18 E/F SH. You must remember the newer versions of the F 16s are not aircrafts that belong to the 'light' category but they are medium weight aircrafts.

Comparing both will be like comparing apples to oranges.


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## Gabbar

casual said:


> compares f16 and LCA side by side
> 
> ok whatever you say



Would you stop pitching F-16s. You were also doing same thing in LCA thread as well. Do you work for Lockheed Martin or something?

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## AUz

Whatever guys..LCA project is still much better than *JF-17 Thunder project..*



bhartis please thank me for this honest and true post


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## angeldemon_007

What is the progress of our AESA and kaveri-snecma projects ??/


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## Hulk

Ok here is my take.
Is LCA in current form 4th generation? No. But who told it is completed FOC? At FOC it will be 4th generation and that matters.

Now it takes time to manufacture planes, in next 2 years we will maufacture 40 of them, while parallely integrate BVR and other stuff.

After 2 years, when we have integrated BVR, we will update the software of all 40 of them, so yeah after 2 years all 40 of them will be BVR capable. Whats the problem.

@AJTR, Antony might be pushing for indigenisation, what's wrong in that? If we do not give our R&D a chance we will never grow.

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## aimarraul

*Indian Air Force on Monday began the process to induct indigenously built light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.*
The limited series production of the aircraft was granted initial operational clearance (IOC) by defence minister AK Antony, with part compliance of parameters vis-a-vis air staff requirementsof the IAF. 

IOC comes after 27 years of conceptualising the programme. The historic flights were flown by Group Captains Thomas and Tyagi.

IAF would get two more LCAs by June 2011 and two by the year end. With Rs12,000 crore spent on the development of Tejas, it still has only 60% indigenous content, said DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat. He said by the time the aircraft gets its Final Operational Clearance (FOC), expected in December 2012, it would be over 75 % indigenised. 

IOC would allow the IAF to have the aircraft inducted in its squadrons and its personnel fly the aircraft for training purposes. An IOC declared fighter is ready to perform all functions except go into battle. Only after the FOC does an aircraft become battle-worthy, as FOC certifies its weapons-delivery. 

Air Chief Marshal PV Naik termed it a low-end aircraft, short of the Swedish Gripen NG aircraft, in the single-engine category, and said as it develops it would reach the fourth generation status and would fill in the numbers required, as a medium and low-end category aircraft.

Antony who handed over the IOC certification to the Air Chief, said, after crossing a number of challenges and accomplishing a significant series of milestones of envelop expansion, sensor integration and weapon delivery in over 1,500 sorties, the country is poised for a major turning point with the declaration of the IOC.

According to former air chief FH Major it is a milestone for the IAF to achieve the IOC for Tejas. The first squadron of the LCA comprising 20 aircraft would be delivered by 2015. It would be powered by the American engine GE404IN20, as would be the next 20 aircraft. However, the next batch will be powered by GE-414. 

The plan is to build 200 LCAs, 140 for the IAF and the remaining for the navy. Each fighter aircraft costs Rs200 crore, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited chairman Ashok Nayak said.


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## satishkumarcsc

and the trolling starts.....


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## graphican

I think you can give India its due credit for LCA.. they have taken so long but atleats they have made something which IAF is ready to accept.

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## ares

I find this criticism by Pakistani members similar to their criticism of Indian satellite programme(ie duped in hypocrisy) when Indian satellite fails .

It easy point and laugh, but they can't even create propeller driven aircraft* on their own.*

And if JF-17 is their benchmark then India has been doing JF-17 like TOT productions since 1961.

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## CardSharp

ares said:


> I find this criticism by Pakistani members similar to their criticism of Indian satellite programme(ie duped in hypocrisy) when Indian satellite fails .
> 
> It easy point and laugh, but they can't even create propeller driven aircraft* on their own.*
> 
> And if JF-17 is their benchmark then India has been doing JF-17 like *TOT productions* since 1961.



QUOTED FOR TRUTH.


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## ares

CardSharp said:


> QUOTED FOR TRUTH.



Well you can call it join venture..if you like.. but Pakistani contribution to it remains surprisingly small, especially considering the claim,"they both pitched 50-50 for it."


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## CardSharp

ares said:


> Well you can call it join venture..if you like.. but Pakistani contribution to it remains surprisingly small, especially considering the claim,they both pitched 50-50 for it.



You say this and claim the FGFA is indigenous in the same breath. Ok.


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## ares

CardSharp said:


> You say this and claim the FGFA is indigenous in the same breath. Ok.



How can we..when it not even ready yet and Indian contribution to it is still unknown.


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## jha

One thing is clear no. of MRCA planes to be procured will be increased.


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## SpArK

*India's Tejas fighter achieves initial operational clearance milestone​*
More than two decades after it was conceived as a replacement for the Mikoyan MiG-21, India's Tejas light combat aircraft has received initial operational clearance.

Defence minister A K Antony handed over a release to service certificate to Indian air force chief of staff P V Naik in Bangalore on 10 January, moving the Aeronautical Development Agency's (ADA) supersonic type a step closer to its formal induction.

Antony says India's military aviation programme has received a big boost by passing this milestone, with the Tejas demonstrating its ability to build a state-of-the-art multi-role combat aircraft virtually from scratch. It has also given fresh impetus to the planned development of an advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and unmanned combat air vehicles, he says.











The initial operational clearance declaration has paved the way for Hindustan Aeronautics to take up the series production of 40 Mk I examples of the Tejas on order for the Indian air force. The company has the infrastructure in place to roll out 10 of the GE Aviation F404-IN20-powered aircraft a year, with the first due to be handed over before the end of 2011. It is unclear whether the company is in a position to meet this deadline.


Since its launch in the 1980s, the Tejas programme has been hit by time and cost overruns caused by India's lack of experience in combat aircraft technology, and slowed by US sanctions imposed after nuclear tests conducted by India in 1998.


A first technology demonstrator took to the skies in January 2001, and subsequent envelope expansion, sensor integration and weapons delivery work has seen more than 1,500 sorties flown under a wide range of atmospheric and environmental conditions.


India's massive investment in the project has helped to rejuvenate its aeronautics sector in areas such as research and development, design, fabrication, assembly and testing facilities, the nation's Defence Research and Development Organisation says.


"Small and medium enterprises played a major role in the production of test equipment and components," says Ashok Saxena, managing director of Navv Avia Technologies. "These companies are now getting business from many foreign firms looking for good quality, low-cost outsourcing for their own programmes."


The Tejas will join an operational inventory also including the air force's current Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike aircraft and its future medium multi-role combat aircraft. The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG are in contention for the projected 126-aircraft deal.


The air force is estimated as requiring around 200 Tejas, while the Indian navy needs 40 examples to replace its British Aerospace Sea Harrier FRS51 fighters.

The ADA is also developing a Tejas Mk II fighter for the Indian air force. Planned to fly in 2014, this will use a more powerful GE F414 engine and have a retractable refuelling probe and other improvements to remedy deficiencies noted in the original version.
Meanwhile, India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment's indigenous Kaveri engine originally developed for the Tejas will be upgraded under a tie-up with French firm Snecma, and could power the proposed AMCA.


Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal


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## Gabbar

There is no two seater version cleared for IOC yet is it or is it the same thing?


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## HongWu

^ Hey it doesn't look too bad. Looks like a delta-wing JF-17. But with a lot of western components, it is likely very expensive.


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## farhan_9909

integration of BVR in 2012? :O

too late yaar.

Sd-10B is tested on Jf-17 in oct 2010 in china..as per PSHAMIM the fighter 2nd block is only in testing phase.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

Its back again..


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## rockstarIN

farhan_9909 said:


> integration of BVR in 2012? :O
> 
> too late yaar.
> 
> Sd-10B is tested on Jf-17 in oct 2010 in china..as per PSHAMIM the fighter 2nd block is only in testing phase.



2012 is for FOC not only BVR test, there are lots of other stuff to be done...like refueling capability, targeting pod, guided munitions, extensive tests of dog fights, angle of attack etc.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Its back again..



even they can't live without LCA now....


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## rockstarIN

Im seeing lots of deleted posts here....lots dog fight happened here last night, i missed it..he he he


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## luckyyy

rockstar said:


> 2012 is for FOC not only BVR test, there are lots of other stuff to be done...like* refueling capability *, targeting pod, guided munitions, extensive tests of dog fights, angle of attack etc.



*Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe*

U.K.-based Cobham is in discussions with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Indias Aeronautical Development Agency about retrofitting a retractable refueling probe on the current model of the Light Combat Aircraft as well as the Mk2 version
Cobham Looks At LCA Fueling Probe | AVIATION WEEK

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## jha

*Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon*






Took this photo of Commodore CD Balaji, director of the LCA Navy programme at the Tejas IOC event on Monday. He's a man under a lot of stress and it showed. He looked distracted, he paced constantly. The LCA-N missed its December 2010 first flight deadline as a result of confidence levels over landing gear and other issues according to sources, though the team (with help from EADS) is working hard to get past niggles and put the jet into the air sometime in the next three months.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon


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## GORKHALI

rockstar said:


> Im seeing lots of deleted posts here....lots dog fight happened here last night, i missed it..he he he



hahahaha exactly lots of dogfights between JF 17 AND LCA TODAY.i don't know how many pilots martyr?


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## angeldemon_007

> integration of BVR in 2012? :O
> 
> too late yaar.


Agreed... I don't know why ?/ LCA mkII will be ready in 2014. I think for the couple of years LCA was undergoing testing. I don't know why they haven't started working on LCA mkII. They just say, after mkI start to induct.



> Hey it doesn't look too bad. Looks like a delta-wing JF-17. But with a lot of western components, it is likely very expensive.


According to me, JF17 looks better. LCA costs around 31 million $ per aircraft.


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## Gabbar

Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony​

*The euphoria over the success of Tejas notwithstanding there has to be a reality check, even if it seems harsh. Even union defence minister A K Antony has admitted that Tejas has reached just "the semi-final stage'' at this point. *
As was first reported by TOI earlier, the overall developmental cost of the Tejas project, including the naval variant and trainer, has zoomed up to Rs 17,269 crore from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme. 

*Moreover, the real induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013, with the first two squadrons becoming fully operational at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) by 2015 or so, a full three decades after the LCA project was first sanctioned to replace the ageing MiG-21s. *

*That's not all. The first test-flight of the Tejas Mark-II version, with more powerful American GE F-414 engines, will be possible only by December 2014, with its production beginning in June 2016. And even then, the Tejas will just be a medium to low-end fighter, not a high-end air dominance one. *

ACM Naik, in fact, described Tejas as a "MiG-21 plus-plus'', and made it clear that it was not even a fourth-generation fighter at present but would be in the future, indicating it will primarily be used to plug the gap in numbers. 

Consequently, India's frontline combat fighters will the 270 Russian-origin Sukhoi-30MKIs already being inducted for around $12 billion, the 126 new medium multi-role combat aircraft to be acquired in the $10.4 billion MMRCA project and the 250 to 300 fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be built with Russia in the gigantic $35 billion project. 

*Yes, there is no getting away from the critical fact that India has to be self-reliant in military hardware and software if it wants to emerge as a superpower on the global stage. But the Tejas saga puts serious question marks on the defence indigenisation model being followed. 

The fighter, for instance, is still only around 60&#37; indigenous despite being 27 years in the making. It, for example, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989. *

Read more: Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony - The Times of India Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony - The Times of India


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## luckyyy

as a habit indians always find ways to downplay their success ........

has this success was achived by some private company , indian media will be writing all the good news........

somehow we are always not happy with govt run organizations...

as i said before , just sell the LCA project to a corporate body , the money that govt recive can be spend to buy LCA and the private company will look after to improve it...at the same time india will get a private fighter aircarft menufecturer


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## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> To be honest, I like the single seat more, because the twin seat looks kind off short when you compare them. Especially the location of the rear gear "looks" kind of strange, but I guess that has to do with the high position of the co-pilots cockpit.



The trainer version does look a bit short (a bit like BaE Hawk). Though I do not mind that as long as the curves are there.( I guess the impact of Su 27 design has been very profound.)

A single seater with a hump would be the best solution.Let us wait for the N LCA to take flight.


BTW, this according to me has been the best LCA pic ever. (Though I'm sure you will look at the rear Landing gear and wince again!)


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

i dont understand why people are whinning that LCA is not a air dominant fighter and its just mig 21 plus plus. wasnt it supposed to be a light combat aircraft?
then how can anyone expect it to be a dominance aircraft?

*ACM P.V.Naik said its in class of gripen but not at that par YET. but as it will progress it will be of that class. so isnt that what we wanted?????*
how can a aircraft at its IOC be equally good as the aircraft which is already matured and operational????

its the first aircraft we have built so it will need many gliches to be removed. and thats what ACM is saying.

after all LCA was meant to be a lower end fighter it was never meant to be a superiority fighter.


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## IndianArmy



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## kingdurgaking

A sticky thread that was screwed up at the best...


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## kingdurgaking

There is a good overview given in BR what a FOC mean to IAF w.r.t to Tejas


imo FOC = IOC + the below

open the full AoA and G envelope
reach the max speed as designed at various levels
all weather ops - night cockpit extensive tests, heavy rainfall (NE), dusty conditions (jamnagar), a good spell in Leh/Thoise
full qualification of litening pod for target spotting and designation
integration to griffon/paveway initially and sudarshan in a couple yrs. litening should aready be able to 'talk' to all of these.
more extensive weapons trials in A2G like guns, rockets, bombs of all types
more realistic R73 trials against manouvering high speed targets like lakshya
full testing of the "*mayavi*" EW suite & elta SPJ against ground based and airborne threats
testing the chaff and flares pkg against some kinda SAM thing
getting the Tejas tracked by SAM radars and testing how fast and surely it can escape
full qualification of the radar (being EL2032 the front end should be in working shape already)
firing and proving of the BVR weapon against airborne lakshya targets
and finally **this is what we want** - all out DACT against Bison, M2k, Mig29, MKI in A2A role and practising chasing and hunting down strike a/c and UAVs..with a chase a/c recording in Imax or HD and release of footage that same night to salivating br boyz. 
airborne tanking in day and night , plus getting the UK go to fit the refueling probe if possible on Mk1 itself 

credits to Singha ..

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## marcos98



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## hembo

Not a doubt its a big achievment for us. However, the spirit at the IOC function seems to be damp... Guys seemed to be less spirited due to the fact that we could not even manage a full fourth gen to the IOC.

Chinese has flown their 1st fifth gen prototype today. Copy or no copy, its a great achievement, specially because their close proximity with development of their indegenious engines too...

Kind of shows the difference of 13-15 years we have with the chinese. The chinese have come a long way in the field of technology development. We should try to emulate them and "do more and talk less." The interview with Mr. Agarwall was so depressing. The guy hardly seem to know any head and tails. 

Alas!! Bureaocracy, red tapism and BABUGIRI !!!!


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## SpArK



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## GORKHALI

Actully i love naval version more than AF version of tejas,can't we simply adopt naval LCA in AF version too ?? LEREX MIGHT COME HANDY ,in improving AOA and quick takeoff ?? any gurus conflicting with this idea here ?


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## alam.saquiba

> Originally Posted by casual View Post
> compares f16 and LCA side by side
> 
> ok whatever you say
> The F 16 right now costs more than $60 mil an airframe and with the weapons come upto $80 mil. I rather go for an F 18 E/F SH. You must remember the newer versions of the F 16s are not aircrafts that belong to the 'light' category but they are medium weight aircrafts.
> 
> Comparing both will be like comparing apples to oranges.



You American don't know our requirement and give suggestion, as one of my Indian frnd suggest the new F16 is not light category aircraft...

Secondary, our all projects are done keeping high altitude in focus, LCA is lightest forth gen aircraft (if not 4th gen then it will be by FoC).. ALH (Adv light helicopter) is lightest helo. did you ever thought why are we making light weapons???

The answer is we need something which can operate well in thin air of Laddakh and kashmir vally...

our other machine Tank Ex is also light weight and focused to operate at high altitude (and easy to carry to frontier)


I have respect for F16, its grt fighter, But sorry My American frnd, its not fitting anywhere in our defense need....

njoy...

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## SpArK




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## doctor_who

OK NOW WE HAVE it offical that tejas belongs to airforce. 

now let us evaluate tejas to its rivals - such as j-10 b , j-11 and j-20.

does it stand any chance against them. yes may be in next two years afters fully a fighter pilot - may be it can give a run to j-10. 

but by them with chinese development how far will j-10 reach ????

now i truely think tejas is more of demostrator and number filling air craft.

its existence means. 

1. drdo can exist - they are not really worthless may be incompitent but yeh they can produce something.

2. tejas can fill number of mig-21 , 

3. india can finally make some worthy aircraft.

4. we learn from the lesson and mistake . and may be find a new target which is worthy enough to be achieved by India. like mca.


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## SpArK



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## SpArK

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------

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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## 1ndy




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## AUz

doctor_who said:


> 1406236]OK NOW WE HAVE it offical that tejas belongs to airforce.
> 
> now let us evaluate tejas to its rivals - *such as j-10 b , j-11 and j-20*.


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## GORKHALI

IOC CERTIFICATE,NOW ALL TEJAS LOVERS SHOULD NICELY FRAME UP AND HANG IN YOUR BEDROOM..lol:


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## IndianArmy

*It's like the this date, that age story. I couldn&#8217;t believe when I chanced upon a very interesting piece of information today. And, when I got it confirmed from my pilot friend Air-Vice Marshal (Retd) A.V. M. Ajit Lamba, honestly I was stunned. It was on 10 January 1970 India lost a great Test pilot in Group Capt Suranjan Das in the HF-24 Mk IR crash.* And today, exactly 41 years later, Tejas is been given the IOC. Mere coincidence may be! While as cub reporter, pursuing a dream in defence writing, I was told by many about the impact that fatal crash had on India&#8217;s military aviation program. We literally abandoned making a home-grown fighter for the next 15 years, until the ASR for LCA was out in 1985. Though it was a chance-pit-stop at a piece of info on the Web, I thought it would be a befitting tribute to Groupie Suranjan Das, by mentioning a line about him. And, in Bangalore, I hit the Suranjan Das Road every day.
So, finally, finally, India&#8217;s Tejas enters the IOC phase. Exactly at 11:23 am (IST) CEMILAC chief Dr Tamil Mani handed over the Release to Service Documents (RSD) to India&#8217;s Defense Minister A.K. Antony, who in-turn passed it on to IAF boss Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik.
ADA Chief P.S. Subramanyam said that &#8216;the best is still ahead of us.&#8217; He spoke about the deadlines like 2012 for FOC, Tejas MK-II by December 2014 and the production version by June 2016 and so on. He also made an interesting appeal that the academic institutions must help India in the stealth activities.
The next man to speak was Dr V.K. Saraswat, Captain, Team DRDO. He said IOC was a new page in the history of aviation in India. He said the level of technology in the country has gone up. He complimented the role played by private players.
R.K. Singh, Secretary Defense Production, said that the Arjun MBT delivery will be completed this fiscal and the Army, according to him, is extremely happy. He said HAL&#8217;s IJT will get IOC in June and then touched upon FGFA and stuff like that.
And, came the man in blue -- the IAF Chief. I have always seen him simply serious. &#8220;The IOC we have been dreaming about for a long time. We have been waiting ever since the ASR was out in 1985. Over the years, reassessment and realignment of the project was necessary to keep pace with the changing times. Some work needs to be done before IOC. We hope the agreed list of concessions, wanted by ADA and HAL, will be ready by June,&#8221; he said.
Anotny with the FDAJB cap.
Enter Antony, patting Dr Kota Harinarayana. He called him the Bhageeratha of 21st Century. &#8220;He is an example for others to emulate,&#8221; Antony said. In fact, Dr Kota&#8217;s name was mentioned by all speakers and the gathering applauded. Dr Kota was seated in the front row. Antony went on: &#8220;We wanted to strengthen our armed forces with most modern platforms. We have cleared today 20 more LCAs (means 20 + the conformation for the next 20).&#8221;

Then it was time for the flying display and press meet. The display was just okay considering that the NFTC had decided not to perform anything spectacular, but have a very quiet and low key flying. That was the brief from the top. PV2, PV3 and LSP4 took-off and landed.
Before the press meet, Antony had a very informal interaction with journalists. The Forum of Defence and Aerospace Journalists, Bangalore (FDAJB) members made use of the opportunity to gift him a cap with FDAJB embroidered on it. Right through the entire press meet, he was donning the FDAJB cap. We thanked him for giving us increased exposure to India&#8217;s defense establishment(s).
Honestly there was nothing great to report from the press meet. The brief was not to ask any questions other than related to LCA. The standard of questions were definitely under par, barring a few. Plus only one question per person. And, the guy who broke this rule and fired questions (from Bangalore) at will, asked shockers! Still, the best catch of the day, is below.

* Total of 4 Tejas (2 + 2) will be inducted before December 2011. (Antony)
* Tejas Squadron to be raised in Bangalore for operational convenience and then will be moved to Sulur. (CAS)
* To start with it will have 2 squadrons. (CAS)
* MCA project is moving ahead with funds for technology development released. (Saraswat)
* The Sencma-Kaveri pact should bring the results in 3-5 years. (Saraswat)
* Tejas is in the class of Mig 21++, but not yet a 4th generation machine. It will eventually become one. (CAS)
* Initially we are planning to manufacture 10 Tejas per year and the scene will change with increased orders. (HAL)
* Tejas is currently 60&#37; indigenous and eventually will be 75 per cent by FOC. (Saraswat)
* Money is not an issue and the government will fund any R&D project. (Antony)
* HAL modernization in the pipeline. (Antony)

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/part-4-exactly-40-years-after-india.html

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## luckyyy

* The Sencma-Kaveri pact should bring the results in 3-5 years.


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## Kinetic

I am quite busy now a days for work. BTW congrats to Team Tejas for the success. This is a new era in the Indian aviation history. Tejas was more than just developing another fighter, it also needed setting up of full new development and knowledge base for new generation fighter. What developed for initial Agni series later found it easy and less time consuming when developing Agni-III, Agni-V, K-4, K-15 etc. This LCA will lead us to AMCA for more. 


Liked these pics.....

Tejas with all eight bays mounted with weapons....






few more...











*Video by ADA, liked the MMR, CMDS and HMDS.*....


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> BTW, this according to me has been the best LCA pic ever. (Though I'm sure you will look at the rear Landing gear and wince again!)



Exactly! 




FLYING MACHINE said:


> Actully i love naval version more than AF version of tejas,can't we simply adopt naval LCA in AF version too ?? LEREX MIGHT COME HANDY ,in improving AOA and quick takeoff ?? any gurus conflicting with this idea here ?



Mainly weight, because the airframe of a carrier fighter have to be strenghtend way more for the arrested landings. For the same reasons new gears, or a hook must be added, the LEVCONS are only another addition which is useful for the carrier operations. 
*IF* LCA MK1 still weighs 6.5t empty, a similar N-LCA would weigh around 7t and as we know for IAF even 6.5t are too much.


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## sancho

Generally we have to differ, between problems that LCA still have and the way IAF goes with the induction. 
For example, the HMS and targeting pods was integrated 3, or 4 years ago and even the LCA prototypes were flying with them. If you compare that with other fighter developments, you will see that this is very unusual, because you normally add things like these later in batches and concentrate on the integration of the basic systems and the flight performance at first. 
JF 17 block 1 is inducted yet, but is adding these systems now only, same for the Eurocanards, that are operational for nearly a decade and in several batches. The point is, IAF wants LCA MK1 to be as capable as possible when they induct it (maybe because of the delays of the project itself) and that's why the addition of BVR capabilities, PGMs till 2012 are not a big deal and rather normal. More interesting will be the changes on G level, AoA (although the missing 2 degrees don't seems to be a big deal either), VMAX, turn rates, that might be achieved till FOC.

When the Air Chief is comparing LCA with Mig 21 it's nothing downgrading, but logical, because it is aimed to replace these Mig 21s. If BVR missiles are added, LCA MK1 offer more capabilities than the Bisons, but still will be below the upgraded Mirage 2000-5. The MK2 instead will fix the flaws and improve the capablities to the next level and that's exactly what we wanted.

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## GORKHALI

@Sancho ji nahi!my point is just levcon/lerx watever which can help in AOA and also with droping of nose ,no need to strengthen the body etc or landing gears.


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## huzihaidao12

Congratulations, achievement is an achievement, though a bit late, but this is really a step in India's aviation industry.

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## SpArK



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## SBD-3

First of all, congratulations on induction of LCA in IAF Fleet. Secondly, I think now its high time for DRDO to make their baby count by teaming up with a reputed manufacturer for up gradation plans. I mean its no harm in preventing one from reinventing the wheel. AFAIK, most of the delay in Development of LCA could be attributable to DRDO's attempts to reinvent the wheel. Any manufacturer will be more than glad to partner for a plane with large scale production envisaged. If LCA still lacks the operational requirements of IAF, it should be taken as an emergency and the deficiencies should be plugged ASAP.


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## SpArK

*We will give what nation wants: HAL Says It Will Meet Targets For LCA​*
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will go by national consensus on the type of aircraft to be produced and manufactured by it and will meet all targets set for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). HAL chairman Ashok Nayak had said on Monday that HAL would fulfil orders for 48 pieces of the LCA and was expecting a further order for 100 more from the IAF-Navy. As we go along, new concepts and technologies will be absorbed and incorporated in the production of the aircraft. We are proud that the project has achieved its initial target.

A day after the LCA was described as a medium to low-end aircraft and not as being an air-superiority fighter by Air Chief Marshal P V NaIk, aviation experts said an aircraft that is nationally decided is the one suitable for national security.

HAL top brass told TOI that the LCA project was *a nationally decided project and would be delivered in accordance with national requirements. A top HAL official said: The issue is not whether the LCA is an air superiority fighter or not. The LCA has been conceived, designed and developed for a particular role and purpose by national consensus. As producers, we will deliver that aircraft.*

HAL top brass said it was well aware that the LCA project was nationally initiated for a particular purpose with the aircraft set to have a particular form, role and capability. *That requirement is being met. Our capability was limited earlier, it is better now. So even while LCA may have been conceived in the past, it will be contemporary and get better as it goes along. The LCA will certainly fulfill its mandate, a top official said.*

If you ask whether HAL has a suggestion on the type of aircraft India should have in the future, we certainly do, although it is a suggestion that will be in tandem with the consensus of all actors concerned. Now that we have better capabilities and have understood our shortcomings from previous experiences, *we have suggested advanced fighters like the fifth generation fighter aircraft, which again is a national consensus project. HAL will be playing a role in the manufacture of this advanced aircraft along with Russia.*

HAL top brass was careful to point out that suggestion for advanced fighters did not mean that there was no role for aircraft like LCA. They said the advanced fighters and the LCA would serve respective purposes.

*On 100% compliance that IAF has sought for the aircraft, the official said it is natural for any user (IAF) to seek the same. Compliance is a continuous process. Compliance concerns other organisations. Once completed, we would then be producing an aircraft that has been fully compliant. If at the inaugural of the IOC, an aircraft is 70% to 80% compliant, it will be 100% compliant at the time of delivery to the user. In that time, agencies would have effected improvements on all suggestions.*


We will give what nation wants: HAL Says It Will Meet Targets For LCA


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## SpArK

Total of 4 Tejas (2 + 2) will be inducted before December 2011. (Antony)
Tejas Squadron to be raised in Bangalore for operational convenience and then will be moved to Sulur. (CAS)
To start with it will have 2 squadrons. (CAS)
MCA project is moving ahead with funds for technology development released. (Saraswat)
 The Sencma-Kaveri pact should bring the results in 3-5 years. (Saraswat)
Tejas is in the class of Mig 21++, but not yet a 4th generation machine. It will eventually become one. (CAS)
Initially we are planning to manufacture 10 Tejas per year and the scene will change with increased orders. (HAL)
Tejas is currently 60% indigenous and eventually will be 75 per cent by FOC. (Saraswat)
Money is not an issue and the government will fund any R&D project. (Antony)
HAL modernization in the pipeline. (Antony)


More in

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Part 4: This day, that age: Exactly 41 years (10 Jan '70) after India lost Groupie Suranjan Das in the HF-24 crash, Tejas gets IOC (10 Jan '11)


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## angeldemon_007

> HAL top brass told TOI that the LCA project was &#8220;a nationally decided project&#8221; and &#8220;would be delivered in accordance with national requirements&#8221;.


Yeah its true but that requirement was a decade ago, now its outdated. Even IAF is at fault, they should have told HAL a decade ago that their requirement have changed. Now they are blaming everyone except accepting that they never told HAL about their revised expectations.



> We have suggested advanced fighters like the fifth generation fighter aircraft, which again is a national consensus project.


I hope this time we complete the project by the time the new fighter does not get outdated.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

*IAF Chief's Wish Granted, HAL Declares LCA An Air Superiority Fighter ​*




It gets more bizarre. At Monday's press conference in Bangalore, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik said he wished he had a fleet full of air superiority fighters (ASF), but the problem was funds -- here he made that unmistakable gesture rubbing his thumb and forefinger together to denote money. But if the acrimony over the Tejas's generation wasn't enough, what the Chief probably didn't know is that HAL has gone ahead and declared the LCA an air superiority fighter. See the placard above, which stood next to one of the static aircraft displays.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: IAF Chief's Wish Granted, HAL Declares LCA An Air Superiority Fighter


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## jha

Yes.. This ACM seems to have a thing for Air-superiority fighters..Thats why we see follow on orders for Su-30MKI .. EF seems to have won already..


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## ajtr

> *We will give what nation wants: HAL Says It Will Meet Targets For LCA​*


Give what the forces want that too on time not after 2-3 decades.

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## IndianArmy

ACM mustnt compare LCA with Su 30 MKI's Which are in service, Dosent the Air chief Know That LCA has Been Integrated with More advanced Avionics that what India has contributed to Su 30 MKI.... LCA Has not Done BVR testing as its a Part of FOC, It has an On Board Oxygen Generating System + 3000 operational range BVRM Capable aircraft, The only thing it lacks is an AESA Radar, which it soon will... I wonder why it cannot be an Air Superiority Fighter Aircraft...

LCA Mk2 must be The Choice of ACM


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## ajtr

After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> Give what the forces want that too on time not after 2-3 decades.



*Better safe than Sorry- "Someone"*


*Its never too late if its With time, if not in time- "Mjr Amarnath"*


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.



Enlighten us what are those Top Notch Israeli and American technology used in this Aircraft which Makes the HAL team look Like Dumbs?


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## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> Enlighten us what are those Top Notch Israeli and American technology used in this Aircraft which Makes the HAL team look Like Dumbs?



Do you really think the member is going to answer to that one?.. 

You will know more about it in few days.. Just follow the comments.. its kinda funny seeing random visits and funny comments.


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.



why dont you praise your scientists with your own flag?
nobody here is gonna buy that you are even remotely related to INDIA, so why not show your true color?


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## wangwei11607

Congratulate LCA service

The fourth generation fighter add a new member

India's effort of the scientific research personnel

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## kingdurgaking

ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.



Employed.. your wish granted..

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## angeldemon_007

Yeah i think its true. Even the production unit for MMRCA should not be given to HAL. AMCA project has also not progressed enough.
I think we should start to include private sector more and more. At least for the portion in which we can include IT companies we should do it because IT is whaT we are good at. 



> India's defense production is still in its infancy.


Very correctly said...I know we are now back on track, but the way we are behaving that we could do anything.

Our scientists are claiming to develop a 5th gen fighter(some even claim AMCA to be 6th gen) when we have just reached 4th gen. 

Also everybody knows, in order to develop a 5th gen fighter we have to develop some new technologies. Our claims are just based on what we will gain from MMRCA and FGFA but these deals haven't been signed yet. If we won't gain enough to develop our own 5th gen fighter then what ?/ I don't think we are capable enough to develop these technologies on our own atleast in the duration they are claiming.

These scientists don't even thought before making these claims, what will happen when they won't be able to deliver what they claim. They themselves create the stage for their embarrassment. 

The AURA project is the most funny project. The only things the scientist knows is that they know they will make a UCAV named AURA. 

Please don't tell me you don't know what is going on behind the scenes, that our scientists are working.

My only answer to these naive people is that, if the project was so secret that nobody knows what is the progress, then why it was disclosed in the first place.

Its not like we have never kept secrets. Look at the ATV subs and k-series projects, they were successfully kept out of public eyes. Even LCH was not so common until it was showcased. 

Its not just these projects, earlier we use to start our projects before notifying the whole world that we are building this but now our scientists just think about something and go to the press, this is not professionalism especially in the defense sector, where secret could be an advantage. And our press, especially INDIA TV, they just add spices to it and broadcast it to the world.


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## angeldemon_007

> IAF Chief's Wish Granted, HAL Declares LCA An Air Superiority Fighter


Joke of the day.



> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.


Its not right. LCA was the first fighter, we should wait and see LCA mkII. I think IAF is equally responsible. If they had a revised wishlist then they should have told that to HAL 5-10 years ago, when they decided to induct Su30 MKI.

When the customer himself cannot decide what they want, then how come the shopkeeper give him what he wants.


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## ganimi kawa

ajtr said:


> After all this *3 decades *and *using top notch israeli and american technology* HAL comes up with a *plane inferior than then the j-17*.better *fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists* and *employ chinese/Pakistani scientists *atleast they will give better result on time than *the HAL dumbs.*



1. *3 decades *--------WRONG!

2. *using top notch israeli and american technology*-------WRONG AGAIN!

3. *plane inferior than then the j-17*------WRONG!

4. *fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists*------FOOLISH!

5.*employ chinese/Pakistani scientists *-----FOOLISH AGAIN!

6. *the HAL dumbs.*------FOOLISH 


*GOTTA give it to you, gal; you are nothing if not consistent (...ly wrong)!*

P.S. Bolster any of these claims with facts and we can have a serious discussion. But experience tells me that you will yet again turn your back and retreat!

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## GORKHALI

ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.



This is not your gudda-guddi khel ,but a god damn aircraft !!As you are so des bhakt of pakistan and china then why tricolour is still there,also if am not wrong you been BANNED in many other fora such as defensefora.in for similar kinda trolling even in sticky thread,aint am rite ?enlighten all PDF MEMBERS TODAY becoz I STILL KNOW WHAT YOU DID AT LAST SUMMER..lol:


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## kingdurgaking

ganimi kawa said:


> *P.S. Bolster any of these claims with facts and we can have a serious discussion. But experience tells me that you will yet again turn your back and retreat!*



Do you think she has got any guts?

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## kingdurgaking

FLYING MACHINE said:


> enlighten all PDF MEMBERS TODAY becoz I STILL KNOW WHAT YOU DID AT LAST SUMMER..lol:



What she did in last summer?? please enlighten me... will do some gossiping


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## GORKHALI

kingdurgaking said:


> What she did in last summer?? please enlighten me... will do some gossiping



shanti and shabr rakho ji !!! Btw she ??who


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## brahmastra




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## 500

Congrats to India.



Very cute jet. Very large wing for its size will provide excellent maneuverability and take of landing characterstics (important for young pilots and mountain regions). Cockpit provides good vision. Together with HMD it will make him an excellent dogfighter. Because of small sizes and lack of canards it will have little RCS, together with modern radar, ECM and missiles it provides him very good BWR capabilities. SAR mode of radar and Litening targeting pod should give him excellent strike capabilities.

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## Capt.Popeye

ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with a plane inferior than then the j-17.better fire HAL/ADA/DRDO scientists and employ chinese/Pakistani scientists atleast they will give better result on time than the HAL dumbs.



_Lo ji. *Phir Garam Hawa*! Woh bhi sardiyon mein!_


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas production method in HAL needs to be well-oiled; 100&#37; indigenization in defense not possible: Saraswat






India&#8217;s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is finally making progress with many homegrown projects. Often on the receiving end of time and cost overruns, DRDO has been kept on its toes by the Indian media, audit agencies, experts and the armed forces. Amidst all the brickbats and occasional bouquets, DRDO held firm, and slowly the products started gaining acceptance by India&#8217;s armed forces. India&#8217;s industries also came of age and showed increasing confidence in partnering with DRDO. At the helm of DRDO&#8217;s affairs is India&#8217;s leading missile scientist, Dr. V.K. Saraswat, who is also the scientific advisor to India&#8217;s defense minister. &#8220;I am for international collaboration and don&#8217;t believe in 100% indigenous development, which is not possible in the current scenario. I don&#8217;t believe in reinventing the wheel. Development has to be collaborative,&#8221; Saraswat tells Anantha Krishnan M., Aviation Week&#8217;s Senior Aerospace and Defense Correspondent (India), in a one-on-one interview for the India Thought Leaders (ITL) series. (Below is the gist of the interview.)
*On DRDO&#8217;s bumpy ride:* The last 20% completion phase of various projects needed more time and extra focus than what the initial 80% took and needed extra focus. This was the period, maybe for close to two decades until around 2005, [when] we found that the output was very fluctuating. This became a major sore point as the country and armed forces were concerned. The users thought we were not delivering. Hence, we decided to channelize all our energies toward the critical 20% of the phase in the last two years.
On LCA production: My assessment is that there should be much more effort from the production agencies to take the Tejas program forward. What is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. An efficient production method is yet to be put in place by HAL as far as LCA is concerned.
*On the missile front:* *The focus of DRDO in the next five years will be to build a subsonic cruise missile for multi-platforms. The work has already begun. Now we are focussing on major building blocks for the missile, which means engines. We will begin work on loitering missiles. We are looking at launching multiple sub munitions from a low-cost rocket or a missile, which can be guided against each target.*
*New areas:* *The most neglected area is gun development, and we have already started work in this area. We want to develop even the engine in India for FMBT and have launched a national program involving private industries, academic institutions and DRDO.*
*On international collaboration:* I am for collaborations. The whole idea is to accelerate our pace of development and avoid reinventing the wheel. I personally don&#8217;t believe in the 100% indigenous philosophy, which is the most impractical one. Today, if anyone wants complete homegrown products in critical areas, it is because of the lack of [understanding] of the dynamics of the market and a lack of understanding of what is global competitiveness.
*On DRDO revamp:* We are making good progress. We are implementing 20 to 30% of the Rama Rao Committee recommendations on DRDO&#8217;s makeover. The complete decision-taking process has been decentralized. Delivery will be the watchword for DRDO&#8217;s progress.


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## sancho

FLYING MACHINE said:


> @Sancho ji nahi!my point is just levcon/lerx watever which can help in AOA and also with droping of nose ,no need to strengthen the body etc or landing gears.



Although I would have liked to see them too, they add weight and as I said AoA don't seems to be a real issue (if I'm not wrong 24° was the aim 22° already achieved). Droping the nose was only needed for carrier landings, so isn't important for IAF as well. 



ajtr said:


> After all this 3 decades and using top notch israeli and american technology HAL comes up with *a plane inferior than then the j-17*



Says who?

The MK1 most likely will have better BVR capabilities than JFT block 1 because it should have a lower RCS (small size, high ammount of commposites and RAM materials), the better radar and longer range missiles. 
The TWR is at least comparable, if not better, the engine is better for sure (a bit more thrust, but much less maintenance)
Dash HMS, Litenging targeting pod, Mayavi EWS (co-developed with Israelis)...

There are a lot of fields where even the MK1 offers advantages and also more potential, where it lacks behind are the fields where the initial goals wasn't met so far (VMAX, turn rates, possibly G level).

I agree on the delays (and often criticised it as well) and we also have to admit that we failed on some parts of the development (indigenous radar and engine), but with the FOC and the induction of the first squad into operational service, the decelopment will turn into a success, especially if we keep trying to get the full potential out of it!

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## sancho

Totally agree!

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## Gabbar

*Pictures of LCA Tejas handing over ceremony to IAF *


http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_tejas_momento.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_OC.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_momento.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ak_antony_air_chief_PV_naikdr_swaraswat_drdo.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_Tejas.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_tejas_take_off_IOC.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_tejas-flight.jpg

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lca_tejas_take_off.jpg


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## MAFIAN GOD

SpArK said:


> Total of 4 Tejas (2 + 2) will be inducted before December 2011. (Antony)
> Tejas Squadron to be raised in Bangalore for operational convenience and then will be moved to Sulur. (CAS)
> To start with it will have 2 squadrons. (CAS)
> [*]MCA project is moving ahead with funds for technology development released. (Saraswat)
> [*] The Sencma-Kaveri pact should bring the results in 3-5 years. (Saraswat)
> Tejas is in the class of Mig 21++, but not yet a 4th generation machine. It will eventually become one. (CAS)
> Initially we are planning to manufacture 10 Tejas per year and the scene will change with increased orders. (HAL)
> Tejas is currently 60% indigenous and eventually will be 75 per cent by FOC. (Saraswat)
> Money is not an issue and the government will fund any R&D project. (Antony)
> [*]HAL modernization in the pipeline. (Antony)
> 
> 
> More in
> 
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Part 4: This day, that age: Exactly 41 years (10 Jan '70) after India lost Groupie Suranjan Das in the HF-24 crash, Tejas gets IOC (10 Jan '11)



My most favorite quotes


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## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: CRUISE N SNOOZE
WHO SAYS WEST DONT TAKE INSPIRATION FROM EAST ??THINK AGAIN LOL
*Alenia Aermacchi M 346*

















*LCA TEJAS*


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## SpArK

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/88772-alenia-aermacchi-tests-low-radar-cross-section-kit-m-346-a.html


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## jha

*Elated Tejas team dreaming big*

*While the first of the Tejas light combat aircraft is yet to be delivered to IAF, an upbeat LCA team is talking of upgrading the aircraft, with the initial funding coming through for the development of LCA into a medium combat aircraft (MCA) in three-and-a-half to five years.*

Scientists associated with the project believe that the upgradation, considering that the technological know-how is available now, will not be too hard to execute. 

&#8220;Given that the technology is ours, tweaking it to suit requirements will not be difficult unlike in imported aircraft,&#8221; National Flight Test Centre Group Director (Project Tejas) Wng Com (retd) P K Raveendran told Deccan Herald. 

Tejas is equipped with missiles (the R73) conventional bombs, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles. Also, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has completed development and testing of the digital weapon system &#8211;&#8211; the Pylon Interface Box (PIB) and Stores Interface Box (SIB) &#8211;&#8211; compliant with the 1760C standard. 

&#8220;The procurement and integration of the weapon system to be done by DRDO and us will happen based on the IAF&#8217;s requirement and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has the final operational clearance in mind,&#8221; says HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak.

Sources in Team Tejas believe that India&#8217;s LCA will become a good fighter with the ability to supplement combat fighters: Sukhoi-30MKIs, the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the fifth-generation fighter aircraft in the future.

&#8220;By the time India inducts these aircraft, the LCA would have served the nation for sometime and will be completely compliant with the IAF&#8217;s requirement,&#8221; says a scientist who has worked on the project.

The immediate challenge on the supply side continues to be meeting delivery deadlines to enable IAF raise its first Tejas squadron this year.

IAF sources say that concern has been raised at various fora and both the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are now working in tandem at the production centres.

In order to meet the IAF&#8217;s requirement, the HAL needs to create an efficient production supply chain, DRDO sources say. Experts say that it has to be a supply chain that can handle the initial orders and the next 20 too. 

&#8220;The configuration for the second 20 will be different, which means the producer must think ahead and plan for that while not compromising on the production of current orders.&#8221; 

The HAL, however, is confident of meeting the deadlines On Monday, its Chairman stated that everything that the LCA project wants would be provided for. &#8220;Tejas presently has about one-and-a-half hangars dedicated for it and we will expand it if required,&#8221; without giving a timeline on that even as Defence Minister A K Antony said two of the initial 20 will be delivered by June.

Elated Tejas team dreaming big


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## jha

*Elated Tejas team dreaming big*

*While the first of the Tejas light combat aircraft is yet to be delivered to IAF, an upbeat LCA team is talking of upgrading the aircraft, with the initial funding coming through for the development of LCA into a medium combat aircraft (MCA) in three-and-a-half to five years.*

Scientists associated with the project believe that the upgradation, considering that the technological know-how is available now, will not be too hard to execute. 

Given that the technology is ours, tweaking it to suit requirements will not be difficult unlike in imported aircraft, National Flight Test Centre Group Director (Project Tejas) Wng Com (retd) P K Raveendran told Deccan Herald. 

Tejas is equipped with missiles (the R73) conventional bombs, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles. Also, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has completed development and testing of the digital weapon system  the Pylon Interface Box (PIB) and Stores Interface Box (SIB)  compliant with the 1760C standard. 

The procurement and integration of the weapon system to be done by DRDO and us will happen based on the IAFs requirement and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has the final operational clearance in mind, says HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak.

Sources in Team Tejas believe that Indias LCA will become a good fighter with the ability to supplement combat fighters: Sukhoi-30MKIs, the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the fifth-generation fighter aircraft in the future.

By the time India inducts these aircraft, the LCA would have served the nation for sometime and will be completely compliant with the IAFs requirement, says a scientist who has worked on the project.

The immediate challenge on the supply side continues to be meeting delivery deadlines to enable IAF raise its first Tejas squadron this year.

IAF sources say that concern has been raised at various fora and both the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are now working in tandem at the production centres.

In order to meet the IAFs requirement, the HAL needs to create an efficient production supply chain, DRDO sources say. Experts say that it has to be a supply chain that can handle the initial orders and the next 20 too. 

The configuration for the second 20 will be different, which means the producer must think ahead and plan for that while not compromising on the production of current orders. 

The HAL, however, is confident of meeting the deadlines On Monday, its Chairman stated that everything that the LCA project wants would be provided for. Tejas presently has about one-and-a-half hangars dedicated for it and we will expand it if required, without giving a timeline on that even as Defence Minister A K Antony said two of the initial 20 will be delivered by June.

Elated Tejas team dreaming big


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## 500

Lets compare Tejas with most popular modern strike fighter today: F-16 block 50.

Their electronic eqipment is very similar EL/M-2032 or APG-68 radars with slotted planar array antenna and SAR capabilities. Both carry Litening E/O targeting system, have Dash HMD.

---------------------- Tejas ------ F-16 blk50
empty weight ----- 6540 kg ----- 8,700 kg
wing area --------- 38.4 m2 ----- 27.87m2
power ------------- 8,600 kg ----- 13,180 kg
intermal fuel ------- 2400 kg ------ 3,250 kg

Now lets calculate two missions. 

*1) Fighter mission* with 4 MR AA missiles + 2 SR AA missiles.

That's 4*160 + 2*90 = 820 kg

Full fiel weight:
Tejas - 6540 + 820 + 2400 = 9760 kg
F-16 - 8,700 + 820 + 3,250 = 12770 kg

Fuel/weight ratio: 
Tejas - 2400/9760 = 0.246
F-16 - 3250/12770 = 0.254

Very close, that means range will be pretty similar. F-16 however can add CFT, then F-16 gets advantage in range.

Half fuel weight in fighter mission:

Tejas - 6540 + 820 + 1200 = 8560 kg
F-16 - 8700 + 820 + 1625 = 11145 kg

power/weight ratio: 
Tejas - 8600/8560 = 1
F-16 - 13,180/11145 = 1.18

Serious advantage of F-16, better acceleration and vertical maneuvring.

wing loading:
Tejas - 8560/38.4 = 223 kg/m2
F-16 - 11145/27.87 = 400 kg/m2

Serious advantage of Tejas, can provide better horisontal maneuvring and take off/landing capabilities

*2) Strike mission* with 2 2000-lb bombs + 2 short range AA missles + 2 MR AA + Litening pod.

That gives 2*900 + 2*90 + 2 * 160 + 200 = 2500 kg

Full fiel weight:
Tejas - 6540 + 2500 + 2400 = 11440 kg
F-16 - 8,700 + 2500 + 3,250 = 14450 kg

Fuel/weight ratio: 
Tejas - 2400/11440 = 0.21
F-16 - 3,250/14450 = 0.22

Again pretty close.

Half fuel weight in strike mission:

Tejas - 6540 + 2500 + 1200 = 10240 kg
F-16 - 8700 + 2500 + 1625 = 12825 kg

power/weight ratio: 
Tejas - 8600/10240 = 0.84
F-16 - 13,180/12825 = 1.03

wing loading:
Tejas - 10240/38.4 = 267 kg/m2
F-16 - 12825/27.87 = 460 kg/m2

Quite a similar picture as it was in fighter mode (in fighter mode F-16 has 18% advantage in t/w ratio, while in strike mode - 23%).

*Conclusion:* 
Tejas can compete with F-16 block 50 both in strike and fighting missions. 

Pros:
Cheaper to prosecute and operate. Much smaller wing loading, thats good for take of and landing, training. 

Cons:
Underpowered (that can be corrected with F414), no CFT option.

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## sancho

500 said:


> Lets compare Tejas with most popular modern strike fighter today: F-16 block 50...
> 
> ...*Conclusion:*
> Tejas can compete with F-16 block 50 both in strike and fighting missions.
> 
> Pros:
> Cheaper to prosecute and operate. Much smaller wing loading, thats good for take of and landing, training.
> 
> Cons:
> Underpowered (that can be corrected with F414), no CFT option.




Hi, that's an interesting comparison thanks! 
But it covers mainly the best possible situation with afterburner thrust and without external fuel, which means it's too theoretical to conclude that Tejas can compete the F16, especially in A2G.

For example, realistically the heaviest strike load for Tejas should be 2 x 1200l fuel tanks, 1 x 1000Kg LGBs, 1 x targeting pod and 4 x AAMs.
While the heaviest load for F16 B50 (btw, CFTs should be carried from B52 onwards only) can carry 3 x similar fuel tanks, 2 x 1000Kg LGBs, 1 x targeting pod and 4 x AAMs. Which means it offers more payload and range.

In A2A instead both offers similar configs (F16 can carry 2 more AAMs), Tejas as you said offers also lower wing loads and RCS, while F16 offers a higher TWR and the better weapons.
That's once again shows that such light single engine fighters like Tejas, JF 17, or Gripen are mainly designed for interceptions and lighter strike missions. While single engine fighters J10, or F16 adds some more punch for strikes as well.

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## GORKHALI

*MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: We never had a single failure in 1,500 flights of Tejas: ADE*
SOURCE : Economictimes India ensured its place among an elite group of countries making a fighter jet from scratch when the indigenous multi-role Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas got initial operational clearance this week. A key part in this success was placed by the avionics and flight control systems that were designed by DRDO &#8217;s Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE). PS Krishnan, distinguished scientist and Director, ADE gives Anirvan Ghosh an inside view of Tejas&#8217;s journey and the challenges faced along the way It took the Tejas 1,500 test flights and 23 years of development to get to this point. Isn&#8217;t that too long? You have to see that it started as a thought process in 1983 and there was no funding at that point. For the next ten years, we firmed up the requirements and then went into project definition phase. We went to France and Germany and took their expertise in fixing up the aerodynamic configuration. Post that we were ready with a firm proposal and the funding finally started from the second half of 1992. It did take time, but we had to go through the proper processes. Then there were the sanctions after Pokhran II. How did that affect the development of Tejas? Let me be clear &#8212; we perhaps got delayed by two years. On the day the sanctions came into force, our team was in the US offices of our partners there (Lockheed Martin and BAE Inc.).
The team was working on integration of software with the hardware of the LCA. Suddenly we were asked to leave the offices, and we were not even allowed to take back the designs we were working on the systems there, and those were almost ready to be tested. We had to again develop it from memory, because we weren &#8217;t allowed to copy our own stuff, which delayed the whole thing. You are saying that you had to spend some time recovering what you had already worked on and then build on it? Exactly. But the sanctions also spurred us on to do better, and to make the entire fighter aircraft on our own. So in the next few years, we did not just recover what we had lost back then, but also went some steps ahead and achieved the expertise that we had tied up with the US companies for. So now we had what they had but need not rely on them anymore. So ultimately that did delay us, but also made us stronger. Was there a point where you were close to losing faith because of the difficulties that cropped up? Never really. When we came back from the US, I was called by Dr APJ Abdul Kalam (who was then the scientific adviser to the Prime Minister). I met him in his office, along with my boss at that time. He asked me directly, &#8220;Can you guys do it?&#8221; and I replied, &#8220;Yes. &#8221; At that time I just thought we could and didn&#8217;t think much about the odds. When I did, well of course we were up against quite a few obstacles. What was driving you at that point in the face of those odds and how did you ensure the team stayed motivated? The thought that alternatives simply wouldn &#8217;t do. Here we were making the fly-by-wire system, which would control the aircraft like anautomated system. Procuring the same from MNCs would have firstly cost more and made us just a small cog in the wheel. Here we were staring at odds but we also had the chance to create a new wheel, to invent a new system. This was a challenge we all rose up to. I told my team at ADE that they had a chance to create history and be a part of creating something that had never been done before. They were up for it and responded. In all the 1,500 flights we have had so far, we never had one single failure. Those included Tejas in its stages as tech demonstrators, prototype vehicles and limited series production (LSP). Did you succeed in retaining more of the core team and talent after the pay commissions&#8217;s pay hike? That came later when the team had already done a major
portion of the work. Surely, the pay hikes by the government have allowed us to retain talent. Before that some people did move out of the project and went in the private
sector where they were better paid. But when I met them later at some event, they said that they missed working on cutting edge technology and making something entirely new. Now you are working on the Regional Transport Aircraft as well as the unmanned aerial combat vehicle? Yes, we are making the flight control systems for that project which is headed by NAL. The flight control system and data link packages of Aura (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) will be designed and developed jointly by ADE and Defence Electronic Application Laboratory, Dehradun. Many private and public agencies worked on the Tejas. They are now collaborating on the transport aircraft. Does this lead to confusion and delays? No, because the parameters are clearly defined. In fact, this happened smoothly also because of BAE North America. When we were partnering with them, they had formulated the methodology on how various agencies would work, and we followed it rigorously. There are certain things like wake penetration, and others that the IAF chief said need to be ironed out and the deadline is June. Will you be in a position to meet the deadline? Of course, we already have done most of it. There are some control loss trials, which are essential before it can be operationalised. Those flights will be completed before June. No modifications are required as I see it, but then we will have a clearer picture post the tests and then whatever changes are needed will be implemented.


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## Storm Force

I think the LCA tejas is a fantastic achievement by the DRDO/HAL group.

The indians have a TRUE 4 generation fighter which when FOC is achieved in the same class as a F16/50 Mirage2000 & Gripen C/D. 

It looks like a european design due to delta input from Dassult
Is powered by a highly efficient combat proven American engine
Hasa a ppwerful Elta israeli core tech in the radar which is indengious
Highly advanced digital FBW flight system compsite material build and glass cockpi.

Best of it will use weapons from INDIA RUSSIA & ISRAELI . 

When you look what this will replace ie 200 mig21s its a 1.5 generations ahead of india current mig21 fleet...And equal or BETTER to anything in the PAF fleet already including thie F16 MLU & Thunders and Mirages

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## 500

sancho said:


> Hi, that's an interesting comparison thanks!
> But it covers mainly the best possible situation with afterburner thrust and without external fuel, which means it's too theoretical to conclude that Tejas can compete the F16, especially in A2G.
> 
> For example, realistically the heaviest strike load for Tejas should be 2 x 1200l fuel tanks, 1 x 1000Kg LGBs, 1 x targeting pod and 4 x AAMs.
> While the heaviest load for F16 B50 (btw, CFTs should be carried from B52 onwards only) can carry 3 x similar fuel tanks, 2 x 1000Kg LGBs, 1 x targeting pod and 4 x AAMs. Which means it offers more payload and range.


You'r right. Lets check this loading.

F-16 fuel:
3250 kg (internal) + 2200 kg (2 wing 370-gal) + 900 kg (300 gal central) = 6350 kg. 

F-16 weight:
8700 kg (empty) + 6350 kg (fuel) + 300 kg (drop tanks) + 1800 kg (2 LGBs) + 500 kg (4 AAMs) + 200 kg (pod) = 17,850 kg

Tejas fuel:
2400 kg (internal) + 1900 kg (2 wing 1200l) = 4300 kg

Tejas weight:

6540 kg (empty) + 4300 kg (fuel) + 200 kg (drop tanks) + 900 kg (1 LGB) + 500 kg (4 AAMs) + 200 kg (pod) = 12,640 kg

Fuel/weight ratio:
Tejas - 0.34
F-16 - 0.36

Thats very close, especially considering that more fuel additional tank and bomb make more drag. So range would be about same, but F-16 carries 2 times more bombs.

If Tejas takes 2 LGBs and 1 drop tank then we get:

3350 kg fuel and 12,490 kg weight. Thats 0.27 fuel weight ratio compare to 0.36 of F-16. Thats 33% less. But actual range difference will be lower that 33% because of drag (20-25% I guess). In short either one bomb at similar range or same number of bombs at lower range.



> In A2A instead both offers similar configs (F16 can carry 2 more AAMs), Tejas as you said offers also lower wing loads and RCS, while F16 offers a higher TWR and the better weapons.
> That's once again shows that such light single engine fighters like Tejas, JF 17, or Gripen are mainly designed for interceptions and lighter strike missions. While single engine fighters J10, or F16 adds some more punch for strikes as well.


Light fighters can be very good for CAS missions too, they fall in deep strike missions.

Tejas needs F414 engine. It gives 15% more thrust but weights almost same as F404 + additional fuel. That was done on Grippen NG.

Here the thrust difference between F404 and F414:

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## angeldemon_007

Is it right that ADA is also thinking about a medium size fighter apart from AMCA ??/


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## damiendehorn

angeldemon_007 said:


> Is it right that ADA is also thinking about a medium size fighter apart from AMCA ??/



i think they were talking about the AMCA, ie the AMCA and medium size fighter is one and same.


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## rockstarIN

damiendehorn said:


> i think they were talking about the AMCA, ie the AMCA and medium size fighter is one and same.



I think there is no MCA but LCA Mk2, now there is no point going for a Medium fighter like F-16 or so coz 5th gen has arrived + MRCA and more numbers of MKI


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## RadyLeo

*Tejas LCA: Lessons for the future*

By Adm. Arun Prakash (retd)

(The writer, a former Chief of the Naval Staff, is currently chairman of the National Maritime Foundation)

The formal induction of the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas into the Indian Air Force on January 10 is not just a historic landmark for our aerospace industry, but also a significant step forward in India&#8217;s quest for the status of a great power.

Not more than a handful of countries can claim the ability and competence to successfully bring a project of such complexity to fruition. It would therefore be churlish not to acknowledge the achievement of our aircraft designers, scientists, production engineers and the flight-test team for having delivered -- albeit belatedly -- a state-of-the art combat aircraft to the IAF.

With the accord of initial operational clearance (IOC), the Tejas is, today, at the same stage where India's first nuclear submarine, Arihant, was, on its launch, last year. Both these strategic and prestigious platforms are on the threshold of entering service, but with a fairly arduous road to traverse before attaining fully operational status.

The LCA project attracted maximum criticism because of the time it took and the cost overruns it had. Obviously, the DRDO over-estimated its own competence. This led to the ambitious claim that they had the capability to develop, in-house, not just the airframe and engine, but also the radar as well as a complex fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system required for an "agile" (or aerodynamically unstable) fighter.

This blunder was compounded by trotting out hopelessly optimistic cost and time estimates, on the incorrect premise that since India had earlier designed and built the HF-24 Marut, we possessed the design skills and manufacturing expertise.

The Marut, putatively India's first indigenous fighter aircraft, was, in fact, designed by a contracted German team led by Kurt Tank, designer of the famed World War II fighter, Focke-Wulf FW 190. Inducted into the IAF in 1965, the Marut was only a qualified success, since its advanced airframe was a mismatch to the under-powered Orpheus engine.
The assumption that the advanced LCA would benefit from the expertise acquired from the 30-year-old Marut project was, therefore, largely fallacious.

The second contributory cause was the decision of the DRDO, typically, to pursue this strategic project without ensuring adequate involvement of the end users: the armed forces.
The IAF, understandably, more concerned with extant problems of meeting its operational roles and missions took a detached view of the LCA and remained focused on looking abroad for its needs. This, arguably, deprived the project of impetus, moral support and funding.

The last and most crippling impediment for the project was posed by the denial of crucial technologies by the West. Post-liberalisation advice and consultancy in certain key areas of the LCA design, notably the FBW system, was obtained from aerospace firms in the US and Britain.

Unfortunately, the sanctions imposed after Pokhran II brought this crucial cooperation to an abrupt halt. This is where our scientists showed their true mettle and went on to develop and qualify the incredibly complex flight control algorithms, almost entirely on their own.

Apart from this, the electro-hydraulic actuators for the controls, the pumps, motors, instruments and many of the major systems have all been developed by scientists working in dozens of DRDO laboratories, and produced by industrial units across the country. 
The seeds of an aerospace ancillary industry have been planted, and will, hopefully, be nurtured by a long production run of the Tejas.

For all its good work and achievements, there remain two critical areas in which the DRDO has sadly disappointed the nation, and contributed to delays in the LCA project.
One is, of course, its failure to deliver the fighter's primary sensor; a multi-mode radar, which, eventually, had to be imported. The other is the long-awaited Kaveri aero-engine, which has remained, for 40 years, in limbo, nowhere close to attaining its promised performance parameters and yet, inexplicably, being kept alive to justify the existence of its parent R&D establishment.

Having missed all deadlines and targets, the DRDO has now sought foreign collaboration to assist in its development. The US-origin F-414 engine now contracted for the Tejas barely meets its thrust requirements, and the heavier LCA Navy will need an even more powerful engine for carrier operations. It can only be hoped that the Kaveri will eventually emerge in time for Tejas Mark II.

Twenty-seven years and Rs 17,000 crore down the line, the LCA experience has generated a number of important lessons for India. Firstly, DRDO should not be permitted to undertake any major project whose staff targets have not originated from the Defence Acquisition Council or Chiefs of Staff Committee.

Once the project is approved, the sponsoring service must associate intimately with the DRDO to refine the staff requirements, and contribute uniformed personnel as well as funding during development. It is, perhaps, time for the IAF to create an establishment along the lines of the navy's Directorate of Naval Design to conceptualise future aircraft.

With globalisation, the quest for attaining autarchy in every aspect of technology has become a counter-productive activity. A conscious and early decision must be taken in every project regarding the technologies we need to develop in-country and those that we can acquire from abroad.

Developmental projects undertaken by the DRDO should have fairly rigid time-frames, after which they should become candidates for review and abortion. The DRDO practice of in-house "peer reviews" of projects by scientists must be replaced by hard-nosed audits and progress-checks by independent experts, as well as end users.

Six decades after independence, 80-90 per cent of our military hardware remains of foreign origin, and India has the dubious distinction of being among the top arms importers in the world.
The comprehensive capability to design and undertake serial production of major weapon systems and ordnance is an imperative that has, so far, eluded us. Our claims to big-power status will ring hollow as long as we remain dependent on imports for major weapon systems.

For all the scorn and criticism that we often (justly) heap on the DRDO and our PSUs, the fact remains that, properly restructured and synergised with India's innovative private sector, both these national institutions have the capability to rescue India from the unending arms-dependency trap. First Arihant and now Tejas have provided tangible proof of this.

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## Sri

Hey Guys the below report says
he Tejas is touted as a fly-by-wire system; that is, one that uses sophisticated computer electronics to make it as foolproof as possible. A fly-by-wire aircraft normally has four circuits for each connection, meaning even if one circuit to the landing gear fails, three others will still operate. *But in reality, the Indian Tejas has only two such circuits, not four. *Technically it does not qualify as a fly-by-wire aircraft. 
The Invisible Bird | OPEN Magazine
Want to know how far this is true.


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## luckyyy

Sri said:


> Hey Guys the below report says
> he Tejas is touted as a fly-by-wire system; that is, one that uses sophisticated computer electronics to make it as foolproof as possible. A fly-by-wire aircraft normally has four circuits for each connection, meaning even if one circuit to the landing gear fails, three others will still operate. *But in reality, the Indian Tejas has only two such circuits, not four. *Technically it does not qualify as a fly-by-wire aircraft.
> The Invisible Bird | OPEN Magazine
> Want to know how far this is true.



does fly-by-wire has anything to do with landing gears..?

as far as i know it's an softwere to control the arodynamic flying of a unstable aircraft...


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## 500

luckyyy said:


> as far as i know it's an softwere to control the arodynamic flying of a unstable aircraft...


Not necessary. Most of modern civil jets are FBW, but are aerodynamically stable.


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## sirius4u

Sri said:


> Hey Guys the below report says
> he Tejas is touted as a fly-by-wire system; that is, one that uses sophisticated computer electronics to make it as foolproof as possible. A fly-by-wire aircraft normally has four circuits for each connection, meaning even if one circuit to the landing gear fails, three others will still operate. *But in reality, the Indian Tejas has only two such circuits, not four. *Technically it does not qualify as a fly-by-wire aircraft.
> The Invisible Bird | OPEN Magazine
> Want to know how far this is true.



AFAIK, the Tejas is fitted with a quadruple redundant fly-by-wire system.
i.e., even if one fails, the other three may take over. It has nothing to do with the landing gear. It controls the aerodynamics of the aircraft. 
Be it one circuit, or four, a fly-by-wire system is a fly-by-wire system.


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> does fly-by-wire has anything to do with landing gears..?
> 
> as far as i know it's an softwere to control the arodynamic flying of a unstable aircraft...



First of all we cant verify how authentic the source is... Because if this is a issue then there would be a huge buzz in the media.... Only this magazine reported and its J-20 power projection doesn't make any reliability ...
Secondly Fly-by-wire is refers to circuited control.. The author of the magazine forgot that a single circuited control is also called Fly-by-wire..
How ever there are other fly-by-wire called, dual digital/analog, quadruplex etc.... Which shows the level of author's knowledge .. who just want to add some fuel into the flame...

May be he is right on landing gear... may be he just added is own masala ... 

we have to just wait and watch...

in FBW... everything is software controlled.. in Quadruplex we will have 4 different algorithms for an action.. and the end action is carried by voting on the 4 different out comes... May be for landing gear two algorithm would have been sufficient... 

As far i know we have 4 computers on board to manage the redudancy ... so it means this report is just to add flames...


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## Capt.Popeye

sirius4u said:


> AFAIK, the Tejas is fitted with a quadruple redundant fly-by-wire syste
> i.e., even if one fails, the other three may take over. It has nothing to do with the landing gear. It controls the aerodynamics of the aircraft.



Yeah that is the way it is. Never mind that blog or whatever. our friend 'Sri' is _pressure-cooking_ for nothing.


[/QUOTE]Be it one circuit, or four, a fly-by-wire system is a fly-by-wire system.[/QUOTE]

If the Tejas is flying like the underlined part, then that is a "short circuit".


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## Sri

Its not Pressure cooking, just trying to show whats being reported in the week of its biggest achievement. May be our media needs to behave in a more mature way.
Chill guys...


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## luckyyy

do a combat aircraft actually need to carry dumb bombs........?

even with present f404 engine , the LCA still could have enough thrust if it fly only with 8 A2A missiles without carrying any dumb bombs...

doesn't LCA mkI can still be very good in defensive role , i mean there are many other aircrafts IAF has to bomb the enemy...


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## Joe Shearer

luckyyy said:


> do a combat aircraft actually need to carry dumb bombs........?
> 
> even with present f404 engine , the LCA still could have enough thrust if it fly only with 8 A2A missiles without carrying any dumb bombs...
> 
> doesn't LCA mkI can still be very good in defensive role , i mean there are many other aircrafts IAF has to bomb the enemy...



It could do point interception, combat air patrol covering army units during operations, close air support, and a limited amount of interdiction. It is a very stable, easy-to-fly plane and ideal of inducting in large numbers in this kind of support role. Its major weaknesses, the radar and the engine, have to be addressed urgently: without the radar, but with a hugely better engine, better than the 414 even, it can do very well in this kind of tactical role.

If we had had an Army Aviation Corps tasked to fly fixed-wing aircraft in close coordination with brigades and upwards, this would be the key to it, the centre piece.

On the other hand, for an Air Force obsessed, as it should be, with air superiority against very advanced technology to the north, deep strike needs in the west and the north, interdiction in the west and the north, and combat air patrol over air force and big cities and industrial centres, a type of area interception, then this aircraft is frankly a pain in the elbow. That is even after discarding totally any close air support and short-range interdiction tasks. And I forgot to mention maritime roles, which our neighbours to the west harshly criticise their air force for not doing well and which we need to do with a land-based air force, whoever owns it, Air Force, Navy or Army. 

A very useful aircraft being shoved into the reluctant hands of a service that is focussed elsewhere, and kept away from two services which desperately need it. 

One positive in the picture is that the Air Force is keeping the initial run of 120 Tejas aircraft entirely in the Deccan Peninsula, starting with Sulur. That means their role will be primarily naval and maritime to begin with, a welcome step forward if it is a good guess.


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## WARBIRD

luckyyy said:


> does fly-by-wire has anything to do with landing gears..?
> 
> as far as i know it's an softwere to control the arodynamic flying of a unstable aircraft...



Fly by wire is an electronic interface which control flight movement with help of actuators.4 chanell means four channels. They stabilize the aircraft.


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## lcatejas

the fly by wire is a set of programs which automatically controls the plane and the pilot has to just give command to it.it allows super agility and reduces the burden. the quadraplex system means u have 4 comp working on ur jet.every part of the plane is connected with the f.b.w.
New to the forum can anyone tell me what type of F.B.W j-17uses?


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## angeldemon_007

Is this just me or does anybody share the concern that MKI is way too expensive keeping in view its capability. I believe mkII will be a great fighter, but the question is what will be the cost of MKII, Specially when we are thinking of inducting around 200 of these...??/


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## Capt.Popeye

Sri said:


> Its not Pressure cooking, just trying to show whats being reported in the week of its biggest achievement. May be our media needs to behave in a more mature way.
> Chill guys...



Get your point.
Hence, please do not take everything that appears in the press seriously. Most times, the reporters seem to be 'ignorant people trying to explain things to the ignorant'.
Enthusiasm cannot replace knowledge; viz. the likes of _Shiv Aroor_ please note.


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## Capt.Popeye

Joe Shearer said:


> It could do point interception, combat air patrol covering army units during operations, close air support, and a limited amount of interdiction. It is a very stable, easy-to-fly plane and ideal of inducting in large numbers in this kind of support role. Its major weaknesses, the radar and the engine, have to be addressed urgently: without the radar, but with a hugely better engine, better than the 414 even, it can do very well in this kind of tactical role.
> 
> If we had had an Army Aviation Corps tasked to fly fixed-wing aircraft in close coordination with brigades and upwards, this would be the key to it, the centre piece.
> 
> On the other hand, for an Air Force obsessed, as it should be, with air superiority against very advanced technology to the north, deep strike needs in the west and the north, interdiction in the west and the north, and combat air patrol over air force and big cities and industrial centres, a type of area interception, then this aircraft is frankly a pain in the elbow. That is even after discarding totally any close air support and short-range interdiction tasks. And I forgot to mention maritime roles, which our neighbours to the west harshly criticise their air force for not doing well and which we need to do with a land-based air force, whoever owns it, Air Force, Navy or Army.
> 
> A very useful aircraft being shoved into the reluctant hands of a service that is focussed elsewhere, and kept away from two services which desperately need it.
> 
> One positive in the picture is that the Air Force is keeping the initial run of 120 Tejas aircraft entirely in the Deccan Peninsula, starting with Sulur. That means their role will be primarily naval and maritime to begin with, a welcome step forward if it is a good guess.



Good points above, Sir Joe.
The problem is that when division/application of air assets is concerned, the services have been locked in an interminable turf-battle. The IAF _extremely reluctantly_ conceded ground to the IN in this regard. Thank god; the IN had factored in Aircraft Carriers in to their fleet right from independence, otherwise the IN would _*never ever*_ had a Fleet Air Arm. What i mean is that since the IAF would never have been able to operate Aircraft Carriers, the Navy could buy their own aircraft. If the IN had followed the Soviet Navy pattern, the maritime air assets would have consisted entirely of obsolete, lumbering, land-based bombers. i thank the visionaries at the helm of the RIN/IN who saw a role for carriers and people like Adm. A.K. Chatterjee (as Director, Plans) and Capt. H.C. Ranalds (as first Director, Naval Aviation) among others who gave it physical form. And the godfather of it all was (then) R/Adm. Mountbatten who stayed on the side-lines. The first bunch of volunteer Naval officers for the Fleet Air Arm numbered 13. Of them 4 survived to be commissioned as the first Naval Aviators. 
But the IAF's grouses never disappeared.

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## Black Widow

angeldemon_007 said:


> Is this just me or does anybody share the concern that MKI is way too expensive keeping in view its capability. I believe mkII will be a great fighter, but the question is what will be the cost of MKII, Specially when we are thinking of inducting around 200 of these...??/



I don't see why people are bother about Cost... Does any one know what was the cost of Israeli LAVI project???? It was 9 billion USD (12.4 billion USD as per curent money)... Compare to this What is Indian LCA Development cost???? any guess???/

1 or 2 billion max??? .. Indigenous programs give knowledge. Look at the broader picture what we can gain from it...

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## Joe Shearer

Capt.Popeye said:


> Good points above, Sir Joe.
> The problem is that when division/application of air assets is concerned, the services have been locked in an interminable turf-battle. The IAF _extremely reluctantly_ conceded ground to the IN in this regard. Thank god; the IN had factored in Aircraft Carriers in to their fleet right from independence, otherwise the IN would _*never ever*_ had a Fleet Air Arm. What i mean is that since the IAF would never have been able to operate Aircraft Carriers, the Navy could buy their own aircraft. If the IN had followed the Soviet Navy pattern, the maritime air assets would have consisted entirely of obsolete, lumbering, land-based bombers. i thank the visionaries at the helm of the RIN/IN who saw a role for carriers and people like Adm. A.K. Chatterjee (as Director, Plans) and Capt. H.C. Ranalds (as first Director, Naval Aviation) among others who gave it physical form. And the godfather of it all was (then) R/Adm. Mountbatten who stayed on the side-lines. The first bunch of volunteer Naval officers for the Fleet Air Arm numbered 13. Of them 4 survived to be commissioned as the first Naval Aviators.
> But the IAF's grouses never disappeared.



1. On a conservative estimate, we could do with 33 squadrons of LCA Mk 1 for these roles, one per division. 
2. If we leave out the Mountain Divisions, for obvious reasons, the number comes down a bit. But that number has to be 'compensated' (and not with attack helicopters, which are just as unlikely, from Soviet experience, to work in mountain territory).
3. We need significant numbers of attack helicopters for the western front, but we need a different solution for the mountains. I wish somebody would listen.


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## drunken-monke

Indian media is just a buch of peoples who sell news along with attached masala to it Hence from our parts it is always wise to think and then come to a conclusion. Though there is much much delay in the in the LCA program, I personally dont think that bashing LCA should be done. From having a look at Specs and data provided from felow 500, this bird deffinately deserves respect amongst the giants. Success is not a destination but a continuous journey where you can excell. 

IAF sets a high standards for their requirement and also the addition in the needs may push project behind the schedule. Also as some of the members have already pointed out that failure of Kaveri engine to deliver in time hampered the program. 

But still i think HAL has made several good addition to this toy and in coming version it would become the state of the art machine.. Its not only indegenization but self reliance in the defence equipments which India eyes and people should understand this and praise the ppl behind the scene, and same goes for JF 17 for Pak.

With regards
Drunken monke
Shrikant Parwate


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## Capt.Popeye

Joe Shearer said:


> 1. On a conservative estimate, we could do with 33 squadrons of LCA Mk 1 for these roles, one per division.
> 2. If we leave out the Mountain Divisions, for obvious reasons, the number comes down a bit. But that number has to be 'compensated' (and not with attack helicopters, which are just as unlikely, from Soviet experience, to work in mountain territory).
> 3. We need significant numbers of attack helicopters for the western front, but we need a different solution for the mountains. I wish somebody would listen.



@ Joe
i do agree with the need for an 'Army Aviation Corps/Fleet' but i'm a little skeptical about it taking shape; at least in the form that you suggest. It is very unlikely that 'fixed-wing' aircraft will get handed over to the Army in the foreseeable future. They will have to settle for an 'Air-Cavalry' kind of thing, with rotary wing elements.

_*Unfortunately for the Army, they do not have any equivalent of an Aircraft carrier that the IAF cannot operate.*_ But that's my view for whatever its worth.

Actually my last post had to be abruptly abbreviated. The interesting part is that Sulur/Coimbatore was where INS Hansa was first set up in 1953 with a motley group of aircraft, including IN's first jets- the venerable DeHavilland Vampire. INS Garuda and Hansa were then solely to stream aviators towards the carriers and provide fleet support.

When the IN wanted to take over MR and long range air-borne ASW, they ran into a brick wall. After a lot of to-and-fro the IAF handed over their Super-Connies to the Navy (secretly hoping that the Navy would be unable to fly them). In fact if the IAF could, they would have handed over their B-24 Liberators (which earlier performed the MR role). Sadly (for them) the Liberators could'nt fly any more.The Super-Connies were noisy large birds discarded by Air India to the IAF and the only thing they had going for them was their range. By the time the Navy got them, they were barely serviceable. But they made do. Luckily for the IN, the romance with the Soviet Union had begun and 'Old Admiral' Gorshkov had a soft corner for the IN. Thus the entry of Il-38s and Tu-142s.

Funny thing is that the IAF had to use IN assets like the Alizes which were used in SIGINT missions and helped to set up the raids on PAF radar stations like Badin.

Another foot-note, (a few) naval aviators flew with the IAF during conflict; one of them being Adm. Arun Prakash with 20 Sqdn on Hunters. He was part of the raid on Sargodha where 'Chuck' Yeager's Beechcraft was destroyed. Yeager never forgave the IAF for that _'personal slight'_.

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> do a combat aircraft actually need to carry dumb bombs........?
> 
> even with present f404 engine , the LCA still could have enough thrust if it fly only with 8 A2A missiles without carrying any dumb bombs...
> 
> doesn't LCA mkI can still be very good in defensive role , i mean there are many other aircrafts IAF has to bomb the enemy...



Not neccesarily dumb bombs, but PGMs are important to make LCA a true 4. gen multi role fighter. Carrying A2A loads makes it hardly a 3rd, or 3.5 gen fighter and the aim obviously should be higher.
For point defense, which will be the prime role of any LCA version anyway, the MK1 varient will be useful in BVR, with R77 missiles, a good radar, or data links to be guided by MKI, or Phalcons. In WVR it will lack flight performance at the moment, but the MK2 will catch up in that regard later. 

Btw, LCA can't fly with 8 AAMs, because it must carry at least 1 fuel tank, which leaves 3 x weaponstations on each wing (the 8th station is for pods and not for weapons), so the maximum number will be 6.
If they already would have the inflight refuelling capability, they would be good as escorts for the Phalcon AWACS too.




Black Widow said:


> *1 or 2 billion max*??? .. Indigenous programs give knowledge. Look at the broader picture what we can gain from it...



Doubtful, for the re-design from LCA to N-LCA IN paid $900 millions (AFAIK including 6 fighters), which means the whole LCA development must be much more expensive.
Of course the experience and knowledge that we get at the end are more important for the future of our aero industry, but that doesn't mean that we can close our eyes and just pay more and more. The costs has to be reasonable and balanced as well!


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## palash_kol

sancho said:


> Doubtful, for the re-design from LCA to N-LCA IN paid $900 millions (AFAIK including 6 fighters), which means the whole LCA development must be much more expensive.


@sancho...its not $900 millions.....
Its 900 crore rupees....

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## sancho

palash_kol said:


> @sancho...its not $900 millions.....
> Its 900 crore rupees....



Right, had only the figure im my mind.


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## GORKHALI




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## IndianArmy

PANDORA said:


>



So even this Republik day no flying display by Tejas?? Only this??


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## rockstarIN

I think this is the naval version..


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## SpArK

Yup


















Chindits: LCA Navy, A330 MRTT To Debut In Aero India-2011


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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> I think this is the naval version..



hope so too


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## SpArK

*India to showcase Tejas at Aero India*


BANGALORE (BNS): The indigenously developed Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) *Tejas will make a demonstration flight at Aero India to be held from February 9 to 13.*

Tejas is the world's smallest lightweight, multi-role, single-engine tactical fighter aircraft developed by Indian aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). 

HAL is expected to fly the first prototype at the air show and unveiled the second. Two more prototypes are under construction, according to reports.

*The LCH is due to get its Initial Operational Clearance in December and will be inducted by the Indian Air Force by 2012-13.*

The Tejas undertook its inaugural flight on 29th March last year followed by the second and third in April and May.

The copter is an attack variant of the HAL Dhruv. It is powered by Shakti engines and equipped with Forward Looking Infra Red Imaging Technology, Laser Range Finder facilities for target acquisition under all-weather conditions and data link for network centric operations


India to showcase Tejas at Aero India - Brahmand.com


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## IndianArmy

SpArK said:


> *India to showcase Tejas at Aero India*
> 
> 
> BANGALORE (BNS): The indigenously developed Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) *Tejas will make a demonstration flight at Aero India to be held from February 9 to 13.*
> 
> Tejas is the world's smallest lightweight, multi-role, single-engine tactical fighter aircraft developed by Indian aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
> 
> HAL is expected to fly the first prototype at the air show and unveiled the second. Two more prototypes are under construction, according to reports.
> 
> *The LCH is due to get its Initial Operational Clearance in December and will be inducted by the Indian Air Force by 2012-13.*
> 
> The Tejas undertook its inaugural flight on 29th March last year followed by the second and third in April and May.
> 
> The copter is an attack variant of the HAL Dhruv. It is powered by Shakti engines and equipped with Forward Looking Infra Red Imaging Technology, Laser Range Finder facilities for target acquisition under all-weather conditions and data link for network centric operations
> 
> 
> India to showcase Tejas at Aero India - Brahmand.com



poor journalism, what exactly are they trying to say?? LCH or LCA??


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## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> poor journalism, what exactly are they trying to say?? LCH or LCA??



I havent figured out that yet..


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## IndianArmy

SpArK said:


> I havent figured out that yet..



I jumped Of My chair the moment I read LCH tejas....


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## Capt.Popeye

SpArK said:


> I havent figured out that yet..



Hey Benny, that looks like very poor "*subbing*" on the original copy. Jumps from *LCH* to *Tejas* to version of *ALH Dhruva.*. The sub-editor seems to know less than the original writer about the subject. Modern journalism.


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## SpArK

Capt.Popeye said:


> Hey Benny, that looks like very poor "*subbing*" on the original copy. Jumps from *LCH* to *Tejas* to version of *ALH Dhruva.*. The sub-editor seems to know less than the original writer about the subject. Modern journalism.



Its a fusion remix from Brahmand..  





IndianArmy said:


> I jumped Of My chair the moment I read LCH tejas....



Try this chair.. wont be easy to jump

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## GORKHALI

*WHAT THE F**K ??? WHY THIS PEOPLE REPEATING SAME OLD NEWS AGAIN N AGAIN ?* 


*Concerns Emerge As Indian LCA-Naval Nears First Flight*

Jan 20, 2011




By Asia-Pacific Staff
NEW DELHI

India&#8217;s first homegrown carrier-borne fighter effort is moving toward a first flight in March of this year, after missing its target of achieving the milestone last year.

The naval variant of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-N) completed systems integration tests, ground tests and slow-speed taxi trials following its ceremonial rollout last July, but missed its December 2010 first flight deadline because of concern over the platform&#8217;s landing gear and other critical systems; those uncertainties appear to have been resolved.

The naval component of the LCA program &#8212; the primary air force variant achieved initial operational clearance earlier this month &#8212; receives technical consultancy services from EADS to aid in development. Lockheed Martin had the role, but was unable to obtain requisite approvals from the Pentagon to carry out the work. The consultancy arrangement is mainly focused on aiding LCA modifications in the area of the landing gear, sink rate parameters for carrier recovery and weight optimization.

The naval prototype (NP-1) is the LCA program&#8217;s 12th airframe, and is to be followed later this year with a trainer prototype, both of which will go through their flight-test effort and carrier compatibility trials (CCTs) in Goa. The town is home to the navy&#8217;s largest air station, INS Hansa, where a shore-based test facility &#8212; a mock carrier deck with a ski-jump and arrester barrier assembly &#8212; is under construction by the Goa Shipyard company.

The navy has not officially revealed how many LCA-Ns it plans to field and has postponed a decision on committing to a number until the platform receives its improved General Electric F414 engine for a Mk-2 version.

The navy, typically supportive of indigenous programs, has recently begun to express misgivings over the platform it has backed unequivocally since its birth in 2003. Rear Adm. Sudhir Pillai, who heads the service&#8217;s air wing, now acknowledges the platform will have performance shortcomings over what the service ideally would like to field, while recognizing that there are benefits, too, of having an indigenous design.

The navy&#8217;s apprehensions over platform thrust are much more apparent now, with service sources suggesting that even the F414 is not powerful enough to satisfy the flight envelope they would like for carrier operations.

With the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier set to be delivered by 2012, and the Indian Aircraft Carrier two years after that, it was revealed this week that the navy is exploring the possibility of keeping its sole carrier, the British-built INS Viraat, sailing until 2020, by which time it will be 60 years old. With a tiny complement of upgraded Sea Harriers left &#8212; the bulk of the fleet has crashed &#8212; the navy is trying to avoid Britain&#8217;s fate of having an aircraft carrier without carrier aircraft.

*here's the past news that NLCA PROLEM RESOLVED ATLAST *
*Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon*
Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon
Took this photo of Commodore CD Balaji, director of the LCA Navy programme at the Tejas IOC event on Monday. He's a man under a lot of stress and it showed. He looked distracted, he paced constantly. The LCA-N missed its December 2010 first flight deadline as a result of confidence levels over landing gear and other issues according to sources, though the team (with help from EADS) is working hard to get past niggles and put the jet into the air sometime in the next three months.


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## Capt.Popeye

PANDORA said:


> *WHAT THE F**K ??? WHY THIS PEOPLE REPEATING SAME OLD NEWS AGAIN N AGAIN ?*
> 
> 
> *Concerns Emerge As Indian LCA-Naval Nears First Flight*
> 
> Jan 20, 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Asia-Pacific Staff
> NEW DELHI
> 
> India&#8217;s first homegrown carrier-borne fighter effort is moving toward a first flight in March of this year, after missing its target of achieving the milestone last year.
> 
> The naval variant of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-N) completed systems integration tests, ground tests and slow-speed taxi trials following its ceremonial rollout last July, but missed its December 2010 first flight deadline because of concern over the platform&#8217;s landing gear and other critical systems; those uncertainties appear to have been resolved.
> 
> The naval component of the LCA program &#8212; the primary air force variant achieved initial operational clearance earlier this month &#8212; receives technical consultancy services from EADS to aid in development. Lockheed Martin had the role, but was unable to obtain requisite approvals from the Pentagon to carry out the work. The consultancy arrangement is mainly focused on aiding LCA modifications in the area of the landing gear, sink rate parameters for carrier recovery and weight optimization.
> 
> The naval prototype (NP-1) is the LCA program&#8217;s 12th airframe, and is to be followed later this year with a trainer prototype, both of which will go through their flight-test effort and carrier compatibility trials (CCTs) in Goa. The town is home to the navy&#8217;s largest air station, INS Hansa, where a shore-based test facility &#8212; a mock carrier deck with a ski-jump and arrester barrier assembly &#8212; is under construction by the Goa Shipyard company.
> 
> The navy has not officially revealed how many LCA-Ns it plans to field and has postponed a decision on committing to a number until the platform receives its improved General Electric F414 engine for a Mk-2 version.
> 
> The navy, typically supportive of indigenous programs, has recently begun to express misgivings over the platform it has backed unequivocally since its birth in 2003. Rear Adm. Sudhir Pillai, who heads the service&#8217;s air wing, now acknowledges the platform will have performance shortcomings over what the service ideally would like to field, while recognizing that there are benefits, too, of having an indigenous design.
> 
> The navy&#8217;s apprehensions over platform thrust are much more apparent now, with service sources suggesting that even the F414 is not powerful enough to satisfy the flight envelope they would like for carrier operations.
> 
> With the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier set to be delivered by 2012, and the Indian Aircraft Carrier two years after that, it was revealed this week that the navy is exploring the possibility of keeping its sole carrier, the British-built INS Viraat, sailing until 2020, by which time it will be 60 years old. With a tiny complement of upgraded Sea Harriers left &#8212; the bulk of the fleet has crashed &#8212; the navy is trying to avoid Britain&#8217;s fate of having an aircraft carrier without carrier aircraft.
> 
> *here's the past news that NLCA PROLEM RESOLVED ATLAST *
> *Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon*
> Landing Gear Issues Near Resolved, LCA Navy To Take Off Soon
> Took this photo of Commodore CD Balaji, director of the LCA Navy programme at the Tejas IOC event on Monday. He's a man under a lot of stress and it showed. He looked distracted, he paced constantly. The LCA-N missed its December 2010 first flight deadline as a result of confidence levels over landing gear and other issues according to sources, though the team (with help from EADS) is working hard to get past niggles and put the jet into the air sometime in the next three months.



Hey Pandora, no need to open your _*box*_ yet; take it easy.
Designing an aircraft for carrier-borne operations at sea is no walk in the park. 
*A carrier-borne aircraft is one that is designed for controlled crash landings which have to occur frequently (actually every landing).* Believe me, that is what it is.

_*If*_ you don't wish to believe me; look hard at all the aircraft carrier videos that you can find.
Just to let you know, in Naval Aviation parlance; an aircraft on a carrier _*never*_ takes off and lands (like other aircraft). 
*The Aircraft is launched and recovered*.

Hope that helps!

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## SpArK

*How Tejas finally took off-The History ​*
_Indias first light combat aircraft is the effort of 40 laboratories, 25 academic institutions and 300 companies._

*There is a good chance Bachubhai Patels contribution to the security of the Indian skies will never be recorded. A pity, considering his role in Indias first light combat aircraft, the Tejas, which recently got its initial clearance.*


*The late Gujarati businessman, who ran a small outfit in Nashik that made automobile components, designed and developed a mission-critical micro-switch for the MiG fighter aircraft, used by the Indian Air Force at that time.*

Till then, such micro-switches, which help engage and disengage the joystick from the autopilot, were bought from Russia, and the supply was undependable. Patel's switch was robust and capable of withstanding 10 million cycles of operation. 

*Kota Harinarayana, the man behind the Tejas, met Patel in 1981, four years before the Tejas was conceived. He mentioned the need to produce these switches indigenously to the businessman. Patel asked for three months to make a prototype. What he made impressed Harinarayana. When he brought us a sample of two switches, we found those to be of excellent quality. Patel had even bettered the switches the Russians were using.*


*In 1985, the defence ministry decided to build a light combat aircraft to replace the ageing MiGs. A sum of Rs 500 crore was set aside for it. (The final bill is Rs 3,248 crore.) The project was given to the Aeronautical Development Agency, an arm of the Defence Research & Development Organisation, and Harinarayana, then 43, was put in charge. What perhaps made him take up the challenge was the micro-switch Patel had shown him. Over the next 25 years, Harinarayana worked with 40 laboratories, 25 academic institutes and 300 companies to give shape to the Tejas. On January 11 this year, it got initial operational clearance, and is now certain to be inducted into the Indian Air Force in two years. Apart from the engine, almost 80 per cent of the aircrafts components have been designed and manufactured indigenously.*



When Harinarayana started out in 1985, there simply wasn't enough aeronautical talent in DRDO. *True, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) had built a fighter aircraft called the Marut in 1961 but it was designed by a German team (it remained in service till 1990). Harinarayana, the first Indian to get a PhD in aircraft design, had to argue his case for a course in aeronautical engineering before IIT Bombay, his alma mater, saying if MIT can, why not IIT? He managed to rope in his research guides at IIT Bombay, GS Patel and TG Pai, to work on the project.*



HAL had a design team of 200 to 300. HAL Chairman Air Marshal Malcolm Shirley Dundas Wollen agreed to send a few of his design engineers to ADA. Another 40 to 50 people joined from organisations like National Aeronautics Laboratories and DRDO. Eighty to 100 people were recruited afresh. In a year, ADA had a team of about 400 engineers and scientists. It also reached out to other institutes like the IITs and Jadhavpur University. If we found a professor capable of doing something for us, we would catch him and give him work, says Harinarayana.




Now the team was in place but another problem cropped up  it did not have the right computer for designing. So Rajiv Gandhi, then prime minister, stepped in. During his visit to the United States soon after, he convinced President Ronald Reagan to give the IBM 390 computer for the design work of the Tejas. ADA bought CATIA (computer-aided three-dimensional interactive application), the computer-aided design software developed by Dassault, in the early 90s. Since the Tejas was meant to be a light aircraft, the designers had to use carbon composite materials which were still being developed. ADA then developed the software for designing and analysing composite materials, which it later marketed extensively  Airbus was a customer, buying it for the A380 and other aircraft. Infosys eventually took charge of marketing it.



The next step was to identify companies that could produce the components. Furth India, a small Nagpur company, produced the steel. Another small outfit in Kanpur made rubber seals used to close the fuel tank. Gradually, ADA developed all the electrical components that were earlier imported and helped local companies manufacture them. To make the production commercially viable, the rights to the intellectual property were handed over to the companies. We brought in an ecosystem in the country where the industry felt confident it could make a high-quality product. Laboratories became confident they could solve complex avionics problems. Academic institutions felt they could contribute significantly, says Harinarayana. ADA knew the project was a humongous task for a small team. To avoid delays, the project was divided into 1,200 packages, each handed over to one person who would be responsible for its execution. The person responsible had to get his work done by any means  he could partner industry, academia or research labs. For example, instead of importing the multi-functional display for the cockpit, ADA approached Bharat Electronics to manufacture it. Though BEL was interested, it did not have adequate knowledge about the liquid crystal display (LCD) used in the product. So ADA asked the Raman Research Institute, one of the pioneers in liquid crystals, to help out. The Tejas thus became a cementing force between industry and research institutes.

*In 1993, ADA felt the aircraft may fly by 1999. But when the project was in the last lap, India conducted another nuclear test in 1998 which invited the ire and severe sanctions from the West. General Electric, which had agreed to supply the engine, developed cold feet. Lockheed Martin, involved in the development of a fly by wire flight control system, too pulled back. ADA was then forced to regroup its team of scientists and engineers to develop the entire software and hardware all over again. It was only the recent thaw in Indo-US relations that made General Electric supply the engines for the Tejas. After that, it was smooth sailing for the aircraft.*

The Tejas will cost Rs 180 to Rs 200 crore apiece, though the trainer variant could cost up to Rs 220 crore. The Indian Air Force has placed orders for 40 aircraft and is likely to buy another 100. The success of the Tejas has encouraged the government to start work on a civilian aircraft and a regional transport aircraft. A new body, National Civil Aircraft Programme, has been formed under Madhavan Nair, the former chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation. That's the real spinoff.


How Tejas finally took off

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## GareebNawaz

we can only wait for tejas mk 2


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## Imran Khan

combat range -300km wow

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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^^^That is very old info and Kaveri GTE has been De-linked from the Tejas Program.But AFAIK it has the best combat radius amongst contemporaries.


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## IndianArmy

*@ Imran Khan *, Combat Radius or Radius of Action Is Not The Actual Range of the Aircraft, Combat Radius Is the Distance The Aircraft Can Reach with Full Payload, Accomplish a Mission and with Minimal Fuel Consumption... 

Do Not Get Confused Between Ferry range and Combat Radius Next time...

*See this Brochure To correct Yourself
*

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## MZUBAIR

GareebNawaz said:


> we can only wait for tejas mk 2



First wait for tejas mk1 for atleast one more decade....


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## MZUBAIR

IndianArmy said:


> *@ Imran Khan *, Combat Radius or Radius of Action Is Not The Actual Range of the Aircraft, Combat Radius Is the Distance The Aircraft Can Reach with Full Payload, Accomplish a Mission and with Minimal Fuel Consumption...
> 
> Do Not Get Confused Between Ferry range and Combat Radius Next time...
> 
> *See this Brochure To correct Yourself
> *



Many prob in LCA.
1) So far no contract or deal is done with lockhead for *GE404*.
so engine is still issue untill the deal is done.
2) Mutlirole aircrfats are those aircrafts which have fighter aircraft, deap strike and a ground attack aircraft capability.
with 1.6 Mach...and 2000 KM max range it cant perform deap strike or fight with aircrafts having ~2.0 mach speed.
3)It has good Air to Air weaponary system (but they can be fail with this kind of speed) but looks weak in air to ground and air to sea missiles.
4) There is no radar specs.

Overall the aircraft could be little batter then Indian sea harriers....but again can they fly from Aircraft Carrieres.....????


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## satishkumarcsc

MZUBAIR said:


> Many prob in LCA.
> 1) So far no contract or deal is done with lockhead for *GE404*.
> so engine is still issue untill the deal is done.
> 2) Mutlirole aircrfats are those aircrafts which have fighter aircraft, deap strike and a ground attack aircraft capability.
> with 1.6 Mach...and 2000 KM max range it cant perform deap strike or fight with aircrafts having ~2.0 mach speed.
> 3)It has good Air to Air weaponary system (but they can be fail with this kind of speed) but looks weak in air to ground and air to sea missiles.
> 4) There is no radar specs.
> 
> Overall the aircraft could be little batter then Indian sea harriers....but again can they fly from Aircraft Carrieres.....????



F404-GE-IN20

GE 404 IN 20 was developed only for LCA. 40 are ordered 24 already delivered.

Yes For India's scenario it can perform deep strike. Pakistan or China aint miles away. 

Fight with aircrafts with mach 2.0...but can accelerate faster and run away than the MiG 21. because of better TWR.

Well why A2G is not good?....care to say?

Yeah It is better than Harriers or MiG 21...except in the AoA regime. So it is better than the aircraft it is supposed to replace. So no major worries.

It carries the Elta EL/M 2032's antenna along with the home-grown processing unit. It has a range of 150 KMs for a 1 m^2 target.


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## duhastmish

> Default Re: LCA News & Discussions
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by IndianArmy View Post
> @ Imran Khan , Combat Radius or Radius of Action Is Not The Actual Range of the Aircraft, Combat Radius Is the Distance The Aircraft Can Reach with Full Payload, Accomplish a Mission and with Minimal Fuel Consumption...
> 
> Do Not Get Confused Between Ferry range and Combat Radius Next time...
> 
> See this Brochure To correct Yourself
> 
> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 909x1200.
> Many prob in LCA.
> 1) So far no contract or deal is done with lockhead for GE404.
> so engine is still issue untill the deal is done.




what you are talkign about is - ge -414. 

and that too the contract is finalised and signed. 

_



The US manufacturer has won a deal to supply 99 F414-INS6 turbofans for the Tejas MkII, following a selection decision by India's Aeronautical Development Agency.

"GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement," says GE India chief executive John Flannery in a 1 October statement.

Click to expand...

_


> Specifications (F414-400)
> 
> Data from General Electric[20]
> General characteristics
> 
> * Type: Afterburning turbofan
> * Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
> * Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
> * Dry weight: 2,445 lb (1,109 kg) Max Weight[21]
> 
> Components
> 
> * Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
> * Combustors: annular
> * Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage
> 
> Performance
> 
> * Maximum thrust: 22,000 lbf (98 kN)
> * Overall pressure ratio: 30:1
> * Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9:1 [1]





> Specifications (F404-GE-402)
> General characteristics
> 
> * Type: Afterburning turbofan
> * Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
> * Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
> * Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)
> 
> Components
> 
> * Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
> * Combustors: annular
> * Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage
> 
> Performance
> 
> * Maximum thrust:
> o 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
> o 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
> o Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
> o Bypass ratio: 0.34:1
> o Specific fuel consumption:
> o Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf·h) (82.6 kg/(kN·h))
> o Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf·h) (177.5 kg/(kN·h))
> o Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)


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## luckyyy

satishkumarcsc said:


> .......



what's the point giving out any details to a intended troll ...does it serve any purpose ?


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## IndianArmy

MZUBAIR said:


> Many prob in LCA.
> 1) So far no contract or deal is done with lockhead for *GE404*.
> so engine is still issue untill the deal is done.



GE 404 Engines were participating in the tender, so if it is not to sign why did they Anticipate of a Possible deal?



MZUBAIR said:


> 2) Mutlirole aircrfats are those aircrafts which have fighter aircraft, deap strike and a ground attack aircraft capability.



Multirole Aircrafts are those who Have better Air to Sea, Air to Air ,Air to ground Capability with Decent Firepower, And LCA Has Passed all those parameters....LCA Is a Multi Role Aircraft, Not a Multi Mission Aircraft as You define it...



MZUBAIR said:


> with 1.6 Mach...and 2000 KM max range it cant perform deap strike or fight with aircrafts having ~2.0 mach speed.



Its Not Intended to Perform Deep Strike missions, We have Su-30 MKI's to do the Job, and 2000Km is No Less for a Fighter Aircraft when its range can be extended by mid-air refuelling to 1,000 km



MZUBAIR said:


> 3)It has good Air to Air weaponary system (but they can be fail with this kind of speed) but looks weak in air to ground and air to sea missiles.



How can they fail with this speed?? Well This speed is More than Enough for a Multirole Aircraft which has a High service ceiling 



MZUBAIR said:


> 4) There is no radar specs.



its Better to say You do not know about it.... Its Hybride MMR/ELTA 320 

Air-to-Air detection and tracking range up to 80 NM(150KM App.)
Air-to-Ground mapping, High Resolution Mapping and surface target detection up to 80 NM(150KM App.).
Air-to-Sea detection, tracking and classification up to 160 NM(250 KM App.)



MZUBAIR said:


> Overall the aircraft could be little batter then Indian sea harriers....but again can they fly from Aircraft Carrieres.....????



IAF version is not intended to Replace sea harriers...

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## MehrotraPrince

MZUBAIR said:


> Many prob in LCA.
> 1) So far no contract or deal is done with lockhead for *GE404*.
> so engine is still issue untill the deal is done.




GE Awarded $105 Million Development Contract from India
GE Aviation: GE Awarded $105 Million Development Contract from India

F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft
GE Aviation: F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft

Give me your postal address I will call ADA and GE Aircraft Engines so thay they can send contract agreement. 



> 2) Mutlirole aircrfats are those aircrafts which have fighter aircraft, deap strike and a ground attack aircraft capability.
> with 1.6 Mach...and 2000 KM max range it cant perform deap strike or fight with aircrafts having ~2.0 mach speed.



What is defination of deep strike aircraft?

A multirole (or multi-role) combat aircraft is an aircraft that can be used as both a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft.
Multirole combat aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> 3)It has good Air to Air weaponary system (but they can be fail with this kind of speed) but looks weak in air to ground and air to sea missiles.
> 4) There is no radar specs.
> 
> Overall the aircraft could be little batter then Indian sea harriers....but again can they fly from Aircraft Carrieres.....????



*These aircrafts are better*
*Maximum speed for aircrafts:*
F-35 Lightning II : Mach 1.6+
F-18 Hornet : Mach 1.8+

*or these in current scenario*
SR-71 Blackbird : Mach 3.35+ 
Mig-25 : Mach 3.2+
F-14 Tomcat : Mach 2.37+
MiG-23: Mach 2.35+
MiG-21 : Mach 2.05+

Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Military Aircraft Maximum Speeds

Radars for LCA Tejas: *Elta EL/M-2032* 
*Specifications:*
* Weights: Max Weight 100 kg (220 lb)
* Performance: Max Range 150 km (81 nm)

LCA Tejas finally gets Radar! | Defence Aviation

As far as speed is concerned, Tejas speed is Mach 1.6+ with GE404 (85kN) and GE414(100kN) has already been selected mor Mark II it will surely increase to altleast (engine power will increased by 17%) i.e. upto Mach1.8+.

*About air to air missile:* There is no aircraft presently in service anywhere on this earth which can evade missiles by speed since missiles travel at Mach 4+ speed. Air to air missiles can only be countered through electronic warfare suites, chaff/flare dispenser or by aircrafts maneuverability.


Next time come with some logical argument.

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## MehrotraPrince

kingdurgaking said:


> b.t.w ... what is the definition of service ceiling ?



*service ceiling:* The altitude at which a specified kind of aircraft cannot, because of reduced atmospheric pressure, climb faster than a specified rate.


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## Black Widow

> About air to air missile: There is no aircraft presently in service anywhere on this earth which can evade missiles by speed since missiles travel at Mach 4+ speed. Air to air missiles can only be countered through electronic warfare suites, chaff/flare dispenser or by aircrafts maneuverability.



Wasn't it MiG25 which dodge the missile by its great speed and hurt its powerhouse????? I have heard this story somewhere..


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## rockstarIN

If we station LCA in Sulur or Coiambohtore, can they offer air support to the Kerala costal line? including Lakshwadeep?


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## sancho

Come on guys, be fair, he has some points! 



MZUBAIR said:


> Many prob in LCA.
> 1) So far no contract or deal is done with *lockhead* for GE404.



He is right, we have no contract with Lockhead Martin, donno why but for some reasons we made it with *G*eneral *E*lectric for those engines.




MZUBAIR said:


> with 1.6 Mach...and 2000 KM max range it cant perform deap strike or fight with aircrafts having ~2.0 mach speed.



Even here, he might have a point:



> *Technical Specifications FC-1/JF-17 *
> Performance: max level speed 'clean' at altitude *Mach 1.6* or 1,909 km/h (1,186 mph); service ceiling 15,240 m (50,000 ft); *ferry range 2,037 km*



Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....




MZUBAIR said:


> 3)It has good Air to Air weaponary system (but they can be fail with this kind of speed) but looks weak in air to ground and air to sea missiles.



And he is right here as well, we might have integrated the Litening targeting pod years ago, have droped dumb bombs with high accuracy, are developing our own LGB, co-developing sat guidance for KAB Bomb series, developing a carrier version that possibly should be able to use an anti ship missile, but otherwise there is not much and other fighters might offer more:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/931408-post2725.html


As you can see, he obviously knows what he is talking about, so he must be right, that a fighter with a maximum speed of Mach 1.6, a range of 2000Km and that has nothing else then dumb bombs so far, might have several issues. So we should be happy that Tejas is not inducted into service in our air force now.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> If we station LCA in Sulur or Coiambohtore, can they offer air support to the Kerala costal line? including Lakshwadeep?



Not sure about that, but we can expect that these 2 squads will be used mainly for training pilots and ground crews, start placing logistics and maintenance... and therefor will be placed at the same base for the same area. We might see a Tejas squad (maybe even one of those MK1s) later at Trivandrum, or Cochin, which should be a better location for patroling these coastlines.


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## rajan_united

We have ordered *GE F404-IN20* for first 25 aircrafts, other Mk II LCA will be equipted with *GE F414*. 
But our 25 LCA are enouth for 16 J-10 that you will get.


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## rajan_united

sancho said:


> Not sure about that, but we can expect that these 2 squads will be used mainly for training pilots and ground crews, start placing logistics and maintenance... and therefor will be placed at the same base for the same area. We might see a Tejas squad (maybe even one of those MK1s) later at Trivandrum, or Cochin, which should be a better location for patroling these coastlines.



Why should we use fighter aircrafts in patorling ???
We have 2 two squadrons of *Heron* and *Searcher Mk-II* in Kochi and Porbandar. We already have *Ilyushin Il-38 May*, *Tupolev Tu-142 *for Maritime patrol.


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## rockstarIN

^^ In case Navy needs air support in Kerala coastal area then?


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## Joe Shearer

sancho said:


> Come on guys, be fair, he has some points!
> 
> 
> 
> He is right, we have no contract with Lockhead Martin, donno why but for some reasons we made it with *G*eneral *E*lectric for those engines.
> 
> This comment foxed me completely.
> 
> The GE404 is a motor produced by General Electric; why on earth should we haved contracted with Lockheed Martin for it? What did Lockheed have to do with it?
> 
> All Lockheed did was (parallel to BAe US) discuss how control laws were written. Our ADE scientists actually starting writing these in their laboratories, then one fine morning, they were asked to vacate the premises, without even getting their own personal notes back!
> 
> Engines? What did they have to do with engines?
> 
> 
> 
> Even here, he might have a point:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And he is right here as well, we might have integrated the Litening targeting pod years ago, have droped dumb bombs with high accuracy, are developing our own LGB, co-developing sat guidance for KAB Bomb series, developing a carrier version that possibly should be able to use an anti ship missile, but otherwise there is not much and other fighters offers might offer more:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/931408-post2725.html
> 
> 
> As you can see, he obviously knows what he is talking about, so he must be right, that a fighter with a maximum speed of Mach 1.6, a range of 2000Km and that has nothing else then dumb bombs so far, might have several issues. So we should be happy that Tejas is not inducted into service in our air force now.



There are several issues I have with this. What exactly, in your opinion, or in his, if it comes to that, should we have aimed for? Among other things, this exercise was supposed to find a cheap, light substitute for our cheap, light point interceptor, the MiG 21 and its follow on models. Please go back and check what the MiG 21 originally did; it was a point interceptor and nothing more. It was fitted up for ground attack later. 

"The MiG-21, which initially achieved renown during the Vietnam War, in which it saw extensive action, was designed for very short ground-controlled interception (GCI) missions....."

I hope that this discussion is not the same old will-o-the-wisp about Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, or such totally discredited concepts.

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## gowthamraj

rockstar said:


> If we station LCA in Sulur or Coiambohtore, can they offer air support to the Kerala costal line? including Lakshwadeep?



kochi is only 230 km from here. Tejas have 500 km combat radius.


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## Joe Shearer

gowthamraj said:


> kochi is only 230 km from here. Tejas have 500 km combat radius.



Sorry, only 300 km.


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## rockstarIN

Joe Shearer said:


> Sorry, only 300 km.



Still I think LCA can cover those areas incl. Lakshwadeep area.

Out air power is so much concentrated in the northern & western boundaries.. We need adequate air support in all the areas with least possible reaction time.


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## sancho

rajan_united said:


> Why should we use fighter aircrafts in patorling ???
> We have 2 two squadrons of Heron and Searcher Mk-II in Kochi and Porbandar. We already have Ilyushin Il-38 May, Tupolev Tu-142 for Maritime patrol.



Because UAVs have no attack capabilities, especially in the anti ship role, IAF even offered MKIs for long range patrol flights against the piracy problem.
Also they would be used for air patrols as well, in case any unidentified aircraft enters our air space, that's the prime role of such interceptors like LCA.




Joe Shearer said:


> There are several issues I have with this. What exactly, in your opinion, or in his,



Just used his own words against him, to prove that his points doesn't make sense.


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## Dash

Joe Shearer said:


> Sorry, only 300 km.


Even F-16 has a combat radius of 550 Kms without external tanks. and its much heavier than LCA. Compared to that LCA fares well, and MK2 will only enhance the combat radius.

This also fits for rols of interception coz you dont intercept an aircraft which is 500 kms away from your borders.

But compared to our needs I will still say Its a bit less than exopected but not bad.

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## SpArK

Dash said:


> Even F-16 has a combat radius of 550 Kms without external tanks. and its much heavier than LCA. Compared to that LCA fares well, and MK2 will only enhance the combat radius.
> 
> This also fits for rols of interception coz you dont intercept an aircraft which is 500 kms away from your borders.
> 
> But compared to our needs I will still say Its a bit less than exopected but not bad.



And we can surely expect these figures to up with more fuel efficient F-414 in the next batch!


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## Dash

SpArK said:


> And we can surely expect these figures to up with more fuel efficient F-414 in the next batch!


Thats a positive statement!

and I will go further and say that, even if you dont get more fuel effecient EPE version of GE-F414, it still be better than what it is now. Mostly 500 Kms...


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## SpArK

Dash said:


> Thats a positive statement!
> 
> and I will go further and say that, even if you dont get more fuel effecient EPE version of GE-F414, it still be better than what it is now. Mostly 500 Kms...



Anyway the next batch surely find some more structural changes and these are specific for south operations only as evident with the deployement in sulur.. so expect some changes in fuel capacity too..


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## MAFIAN GOD

Exactly how much combat radius will be increased by F-414 engine that we will get for MK-2?


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## kish

SpArK said:


> And we can surely expect these figures to up with more fuel efficient F-414 in the next batch!



still 300 km for point defense is enough range 
with awaks support 300 km can utilize effectively


whenever it will have 
in-flight refueling 
new engine
modified structure

its range will more and it will be more potent


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## sancho

Guys, are there any sources that really says 300Km combat range in ... role, or with ... load?

When you compare it with a comparable fighters like the Gripen C/D, or JF 17, I am very suspicious of what range HAL is really talking about on their specs boards:

*LCA MK1 / Gripen C (single seat) / JF 17*

Thrust: ? dry, 85kN AB / 54kN dry, 80kN AB / 49kN dry, 84kN AB
Empty weight: 6.5t / 6.6t / 6.4
Internal fuel: 2.4t / 2.2t / 2.3t
External fuel: 2.8t / 2.6t / 2.4t
Payload: 4t / 5.3t / 3.7t
MTOW: 13.5t /14t / 12.4t
Combat range: 300Km / 800km *at max load* / (operational radius) 1,352 km
Ferry range: 2000Km / 3000km *with external tanks* / 2037Km

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...-light-fighter&catid=79:fact-files&Itemid=159

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....


The Gripen is slightly heavier, carries less internal and external fuel, but a higher load and still can go more than twice the combat range than the LCA? 
The RM12 engine is based on the same GE 404 and there is no way that it could save that much fuel compared to the GE engine, so how should this be possible?
JF 17s operational range is obviously not with full load, especially because it carries the least ammount of fuel.

That's why I have some doubts on the LCA specs so far, most of them varies and were not based on the final version, also don't exactly mention on what load this range is based on.

LCA MK2 will not only have a better engine, but will get bigger wings for more internal fuel as well and that should be the bigger factor for more range.

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## angeldemon_007

> Guys, are there any sources that really says 300Km combat range in ... role, or with ... load?


I think we could not even trust HAL, because they might tell more than what the product actually do since they are facing alot of heat from almost every possible areas. This might be the reason that sometimes LCA is called 4.5+ gen, sometimes 4 gen and sometimes 3.5 gen. I am confused to which gen it belongs. It is also said that it is that LCA is the best in its category, I have just one question and that category is ??/ They compare it with Gripen to some extent but i don't think its true.


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## Asfand

To all Indians
LCA is doomed to fail as Indian Generals and politicians make more kickbacks in importing foreign armaments than making one at home. Arjun Tank is one fine example. Only a couple of then has ever built and production stopped as Indian army does not want it for reasons listed above (more kickbacks).


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## kish

Asfand said:


> To all Indians
> LCA is doomed to fail as Indian Generals and politicians make more kickbacks in importing foreign armaments than making one at home. Arjun Tank is one fine example. Only a couple of then has ever built and production stopped as Indian army does not want it for reasons listed above (more kickbacks).



u showed ur level of knowledge ..

and u show ur hater feeling ...

keep bashing it wont affect anything,, 
but better for u to come with technical point and reliable source ,,


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## Indianflanker

I also think Asfand is bit right.. All top brass of Army & Airforce are going for kick backs... Arjun Saga is sameful chapter for Army... Those Officer who evaluated it against T90 has full of praise for it.. but top brass is refusing becoz they aren't getting any kikbacks... shame on them... they must learn from Navy which has ,.supported Indigenous shipbuilding from begning & now Indian Shipbulging has come to an Age & they are world class now....
Moral is that Airforce should also support the LCA from now on... It will not take much time to fine tune it to become best Lightweight fighter in the world... Subsequently It will also help in developing new technologies for newer AMCA...

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## IND151

i guess lca mk2 will have *more hard points,bigger wing area and improved radar*.




* LCA tejas*










































* LCA tejas*

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## IND151

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: LCA Tejas To Lose "LCA" Tag In February 2011


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## angeldemon_007

> To all Indians
> LCA is doomed to fail as Indian Generals and politicians make more kickbacks in importing foreign armaments than making one at home. Arjun Tank is one fine example. Only a couple of then has ever built and production stopped as Indian army does not want it for reasons listed above (more kickbacks).


No, this is not the reason. The problem with the earlier projects were, when HAL or DRDO was asked to make these projects at that time these projects were up to date, but both the projects got a complete decade delay. Now when these projects are completed, they are outdated...
Now the things are changing and hopefully now we could see the best products...


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Guys, are there any sources that really says 300Km combat range in ... role, or with ... load?
> 
> When you compare it with a comparable fighters like the Gripen C/D, or JF 17, I am very suspicious of what range HAL is really talking about on their specs boards:
> 
> *LCA MK1 / Gripen C (single seat) / JF 17*
> 
> Thrust: ? dry, 85kN AB / 54kN dry, 80kN AB / 49kN dry, 84kN AB
> Empty weight: 6.5t / 6.6t / 6.4
> Internal fuel: 2.4t / 2.2t / 2.3t
> External fuel: 2.8t / 2.6t / 2.4t
> Payload: 4t / 5.3t / 3.7t
> MTOW: 13.5t /14t / 12.4t
> Combat range: 300Km / 800km *at max load* / (operational radius) 1,352 km
> Ferry range: 2000Km / 3000km *with external tanks* / 2037Km
> .



According to ADA These are the Engine specs for GE-F404 F2J3.

link - Organisation

Dry Thrust : 55.5 kN 
Reheat Thrust : 83.3 kN 
Combat Thrust : 87.2 kN 

If you compare that with Gripen its almost same, no difference.
I guess the 300 Km they are talking about is with full payload.

However we can do a bit analysis to find out as to why its a 300 Kms, can we?


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## Capt.Popeye

Dash said:


> According to ADA These are the Engine specs for GE-F404 F2J3.
> 
> link - Organisation
> 
> Dry Thrust : 55.5 kN
> Reheat Thrust : 83.3 kN
> Combat Thrust : 87.2 kN
> 
> If you compare that with Gripen its almost same, no difference.
> I guess the 300 Km they are talking about is with full payload.
> 
> However we can do a bit analysis to find out as to why its a 300 Kms, can we?



Combat Radius depends on the ordnance load, after that (importantly) it depends on mission configuration.
E.G. Lo-Lo-Lo, Lo-Hi-Lo, Hi-Hi-Lo, Hi-Lo-Hi. and so on, that is what really controls combat radius. Now throw in a _*safety reserve*_. If the aircraft is unable to return to its home base and needs to divert, or is unable to land on first pass; things like that.
There were numerous instances of this in past conflicts, in India and abroad. In the Viet Nam war for instance aircraft faced similar situations. That led to the creation of _*buddy refuelling*_ (as distinct from AAR) where a similar aircraft pumped some fuel to the affected aircraft to increase its endurance to divert or whatever.

AAR and Buddy Refuelling are factors that can change an aircraft's combat radius substantially.


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## Dash

Capt.Popeye said:


> AAR and Buddy Refuelling are factors that can change an aircraft's combat radius substantially.



I am not talking about the buddy refueling or even external fuel tank. The point here is LCAs engine being similar to Gripen has half of its cmbat radius. which is surprising....added to it it also has lesser payload than Gripen.


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## Capt.Popeye

Dash said:


> I am not talking about the buddy refueling or even external fuel tank. The point here is LCAs engine being similar to Gripen has half of its cmbat radius. which is surprising....added to it it also has lesser payload than Gripen.



You did'nt read the first part of my post, i.e. mission configuration. That is the biggest determinant of Combat Radius, having factored in the mission load. 
AAR and Buddy Refuelling are only palliatives to increase combat radius as required.

If you are comparing the LCA to the Gripen, don't go only by the empty or all-up weights. They are two different air-frames. That will affect the engine performance, including combat radius.
Its that- _*kitna deti hai*_ bit.


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## 500

Range is very tricky data, since it depends on many factors: loading, external tanks, flight profile, speed etc. Best way to estimate is by fuel/weight ratio. I made some calculations on page 281. Here some more:

a) Fighter mission with 6 AA missiles, no drop tanks:

Fuel/weight ratio: 
1) F-16 - 3250/12770 = 0.254
2) Tejas - 2400/9760 = 0.246
3) JF-17 - 2300/9530 = 0.241
4) Gripen - 2270/9710 = 0.234

b) Strike mission with 2 2000-lb bombs + 4 AA misiles + E/O pod, no drop tanks:

Fuel/weight ratio: 
1) F-16 - 3,250/14450 = 0.225
2) Tejas - 2400/11440 = 0.210
3) JF-17 - 2300/11210 = 0.205
4) Gripen - 2270/11390 = 0.199

c) Fighter mission with 4 AA missiles + 2 drop tanks:

1) Tejas - 4,300/11,540 = 0.373
2) F-16 - 5,450/14,850 = 0.367
3) JF-17 - 4,040/11,150 = 0.362
4) Gripen - 4,070/11,390 = 0.357

d) Strike mission with 3 1000-lb bombs + 2 AA missiles + E/0 pod + 2 drop tanks:

1) F-16 - 5,450/15,810 = 0.345
2) Tejas - 4,300/12,500 = 0.344
3) JF-17 - 4,040/12,110 = 0.334
4) Gripen - 4,070/12,350 = 0.330

e) Strike mission with 2 2000-lb bombs + 4 AA missiles + E/0 pod + drop tanks (F-16 can take 3 drop tanks others only 1):

1) F-16 - 6,350/17,850 = 0.356
2) Tejas - 3,350/12,490 = 0.268
3) JF-17 - 3,170/11910 = 0.266
4) Gripen - 3,170/12120 = 0.262

Conclusion:

* F-16 gets a clear range advantage only in 2 2000 lb strike mission. In other missions all fighters rate very close to each other.
* F-16 block 52/60 can take CFT and there is Gripen NG version, both provide 40% more internal fuel loading. 
* Also F-16 and Gripen NG have more hardpoints (they can take 2 additional AAMs in b, c and d missions).

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## sancho

Dash said:


> According to ADA These are the Engine specs for GE-F404 F2J3.
> 
> link - Organisation
> 
> Dry Thrust : 55.5 kN
> Reheat Thrust : 83.3 kN
> Combat Thrust : 87.2 kN
> 
> If you compare that with Gripen its almost same, no difference.
> I guess the 300 Km they are talking about is with full payload.
> 
> However we can do a bit analysis to find out as to why its a 300 Kms, can we?




Hi Dash, the GE-F404 F2J3 was the development engine, to integrate it into LCA prototypes. We later get the GE-F404 IN20 that offered:



> more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) uninstalled thrust and has completed 330 hours of Accelerated Mission testing, which is the equivalent of 1,000 hours of flight operation.
> 
> The F404-GE-IN20 succeeds F404-F2J3 development engines used for nearly 600 flights, cumulatively covering eight engines.
> 
> Based on the F404-GE-402, the F404-GE-IN20 is the highest rated F404 model and includes a higher-flow fan, increased thrust, a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system, single-crystal turbine blades and a variety of single-engine features.



GE Aviation: F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft


But I don't know what the dry thrust of this version is, but I think it's save to assume that the 55kN must be the least figure.


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## luckyyy

Dash said:


> If you compare that with Gripen its almost same, no difference.
> I guess the 300 Km they are talking about is with full payload.
> 
> However we can do a bit analysis to find out as to why its a 300 Kms, can we?



it was reported many time that LCA can fly 45minits on internal fuel........
so , taken a speed of 800km/h , it roughly translate into 600km........so , 300km up down...


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## IndianArmy

luckyyy said:


> it was reported many time that LCA can fly 45minits on internal fuel........
> so , taken a speed of 800km/h , it roughly translate into 600km........so , 300km up down...



Not to worry, LCA Tejas has Better than 300Km Combat Range.... The so Called 300 KM was Displayed in 2007 Aero India when not a Single LSP was In Production, LSP standard Aircrafts Rolled Out Only since 2008.... Prototypes are Not to be taken Into Consideration... After 2008 IAF had Put major Requirements Which Have been Met by the Flight of LSP 5.... Although AOA and STR was a Problem which caused the delay in IOC...

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## GORKHALI

*Troubled Tejas edges toward service*
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: Troubled Tejas edges toward service
*SOURCE FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL* India's Tejas light combat aircraft is about to enter service more than two decades after it was conceived to replace the country's ageing MiG-21s
Few of the aircraft that will perform at Aero India have inspired as much opprobrium - or pride - as Hindustan Aeronautics' Tejas light combat aircraft.
After an agonising development process, the long-delayed fighter is finally approaching Indian air force service. Throughout its long history, the Tejas has had no shortage of critics, but if all the Tejas models that adorn the offices of India's aerospace industry mean anything, it is also a source of pride to the country's still nascent aerospace industry. It is an indigenous fighter, albeit one that benefits greatly from foreign equipment.
Despite its troubled past, the Tejas - named after the Sanskrit word for radiance - is finally entering service, more than two decades after it was conceived as a replacement for India's ageing Mikoyan MiG-21s.









India's Tejas light combat aircraft is about to enter service more than two decades after it was conceived to replace the country's ageing MiG-21s
The aircraft received initial operational clearance on 11 January. This paved the way for Hindustan Aeronautics to take up series production of 40 Mk I examples of the Tejas on order for the Indian air force. The company has the infrastructure in place to roll out 10 of the General Electric F404-IN20-powered aircraft a year, with the first due to be handed over before the end of 2011. However, it is unclear whether HAL is in a position to meet this deadline.
Before its initial operational clearance, Tejas enjoyed a rare good year in 2010. In March, India's first operational-standard Tejas made its maiden flight, from the southern Indian city of Bangalore, reaching a speed of Mach 1.1. In all, Tejas aircraft have now completed 1,450 test flights.
In July, a two-seat naval version of the Tejas was rolled out. To enable carrier operations, this model has strengthened landing gear and an arrestor hook. Additional control surfaces and a leading-edge vortex controller will help reduce its required speed on approach to the ship, and the front fuselage has been changed to provide better visibility over the nose.
At the time of the roll-out, India's Aeronautical Development Agency said the navalised Tejas's first flight would take place by the end of 2010, but it will now take place in 2011, says HAL chairman Ashok Nayak.
In November, the Tejas successfully fired the Russian-made Vympel R-73 air-to-air missile for the first time. The launch was performed from the Tejas LSP-4 test aircraft flying from an Indian naval air station near the city of Goa. The test was monitored by a chase Tejas, which provided a real-time data and video link to a base station in Bangalore.
The missile is integrated with the Tejas's on-board digital stores management system, says India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Missile selection is performed through the aircraft's high-resolution multifunction display.
The main objective of the test was to gauge the effect of launch on the Tejas aircraft itself, says the DRDO. Parameters under scrutiny included the safe separation of the missile, the effect - if any - of the missile plume on the aircraft's engines and composite structure, aircraft handling during missile release, and the functionality of the avionics and weapons systems.
The milestones achieved in the past 12 months come after two decades of frustration and failure for the Tejas. The fighter's powerplant was originally supposed to be the Kaveri engine developed by the government-run Gas Turbine Research Establishment. As of 2009, the GTRE had spent Rs20 billion ($455 million) over the 20-year programme, only to produce an overweight engine unable to provide the 21,000-22,500lb thrust (93-100kN) required.
The General Electric F404 was therefore chosen as the powerplant for early models of the Tejas, including the aircraft on display at Aero India. Later versions of the Tejas Mk I will use the more-powerful GE F414, as will the Tejas Mk II. In October, GE defeated the Eurojet consortium in a contest to provide 99 F414-INS6 turbofan engines for a Tejas Mk II, which is due to fly in 2015 or 2016.






*TEJAS, Aeronautical Development Agency
© Aeronautical Development Agency*

India's air force is due to receive the first of 40 Mk I Tejas on order by the end of 2011
As for the Kaveri, in October the DRDO said the long-delayed engine was undergoing flight testing at the Gromov Flight Research Institute near Moscow using an Ilyushin Il-76 transport as a testbed. Details of the engine's thrust output during the Moscow tests have not been disclosed. Asked when the Kaveri will be adopted on the Tejas, HAL chairman Nayak says it is likely to happen only with the Tejas Mk II, suggesting deployment of the Kaveri could be a decade away.
Nayak's comments hint at the weight issues that plague the Mk I. The aircraft's official weight has yet to be published. Nayak says the Mk II will bring a complete reconfiguration of internal equipment to create a more agile aircraft. "The Mk II is only on the drawing board," he adds.
Despite its critics, who generally condemn Tejas as being behind schedule, overweight and inferior to similar light fighters produced elsewhere, the programme is arguably not so much about producing a world-beating light fighter aircraft, but building a foundation of learning for future projects. This suggests Tejas is just a single step on a decades-long journey to a globally competitive Indian defence aerospace industry.
SOBERING FACT
When presented with this idea, one critic likens it to "making a virtue out of a necessity". Another points to the sobering fact that, ultimately, combat aircraft are for fighting in wars. If the Tejas is, as many suspect, an inferior combat platform, the fact that the project has helped India's aircraft industry will be cold comfort to Tejas pilots.
One expert suggests that, in the event of war, the Indian air force would probably hold the Tejas back from high-threat situations and let aircraft such as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Sepecat Jaguar, Dassault Mirage, and the eventual winner of India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, deal with high-intensity combat.
"Tejas is a prime example of the dispute between the guys in lab coats and guys in flight suits," says Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia, referring to the heavy government involvement in the project.
Nonetheless, India is determined to press on with development of its indigenous fighter industry. It has committed to 40 Tejas Mk Is, and is likely to buy 40 more, says Nayak. These first aircraft will all be powered by the F404, and will be followed by 80 F414-powered Mk IIs.




_TEJAS, Aeronautical Development Agency
© Aeronautical Development Agency_
When Tejas received its initial operating clearance in January, Indian defence minister A K Antony said the aircraft had also given fresh impetus to the planned development of an indigenous medium combat aircraft. Industry sources say this has yet to reach the drawing board. The aircraft will incorporate stealth features, and was originally envisaged as using an advanced version of the Kaveri engine.
P S Subramanyam, director of India's Aeronautical Development Agency, said in 2009 that the medium combat aircraft "will replace the air force's existing MiG-29s and Mirages when those are retired over a decade from now. It is being conceptualised now to use technology that will be available only 10 years from now, and so will be very different and have superior capabilities to the current generation of fighters."
Despite the criticism both at home and abroad, India has soldiered on with Tejas, made tough decisions when needs be - particularly with regard to the aircraft's powerplant - and remains committed to the ambitious medium combat aircraft.
Perhaps it is worth remembering that Western manufacturers have produced more than their share of troubled programmes, from which useful aircraft have often emerged eventually. Seen in isolation, the Tejas is probably a failure, but it is unquestionably an important stepping stone for the medium combat aircraft and India's long-term aerospace ambitions.
HOW THE CRITICS SEE TEJAS
TEAL Group analyst Richard Aboulafia questions the viability of both the Tejas Mk I and Mk II. "Allowing for some residual face-saving, dreams of an indigenous engine are over," he says. "In fact, dreams of using a 19,000lb [85kN] engine have ended too, as speed and weight concerns became all to clear."
Aboulafia also questions how indigenous the aircraft really is, noting that the engine, radar, weapons and other key components are produced overseas. "This renders the national security/weapons autonomy rationale for the Tejas utterly false," he says.
An executive involved in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is equally dubious. "If they had got the Tejas right, they wouldn't need to do the MMRCA," he says.
TEAL Group analyst Richard Aboulafia questions the viability of both the Tejas Mk I and Mk II. "Allowing for some residual face-saving, dreams of an indigenous engine are over," he says. "In fact, dreams of using a 19,000lb [85kN] engine have ended too, as speed and weight concerns became all to clear."
Teal also questions how indigenous the aircraft really is, noting that the engine, radar, weapons and other key components are produced overseas. "This renders the national security/weapons autonomy rationale for the Tejas utterly false," he observes.
An executive involved in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is equally dubious. "If they had got the Tejas right, they wouldn't need to do the MMRCA," he says.


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## GORKHALI

*BROUGHT TO BY PANDORA*

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1520 Test Flights successfully. (17-Jan-2011). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-192,PV3-255,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-22,LSP3-24,LSP4-25,LSP5-2) 

Archives


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## kingdurgaking

IndianArmy said:


> Not to worry, LCA Tejas has Better than 300Km Combat Range.... The so Called 300 KM was Displayed in 2007 Aero India when not a Single LSP was In Production, LSP standard Aircrafts Rolled Out Only since 2008.... Prototypes are Not to be taken Into Consideration... After 2008 IAF had Put major Requirements Which Have been Met by the Flight of LSP 5.... Although AOA and STR was a Problem which caused the delay in IOC...



But LSP 5 is not flying much Just 2 flights so far... seems to a kind of build problem w.r.t to LSP 5 .... which questions the HAL's capability


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## IndianArmy

kingdurgaking said:


> But LSP 5 is not flying much Just 2 flights so far... seems to a kind of build problem w.r.t to LSP 5 .... which questions the HAL's capability



Well, Let me ask you a question, what is the difference between LSP4 and LSP 5 which makes LSP 5 undergo equal or more parameter check ups than its predecessor??


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## ganimi kawa

Good news, guys!


*Model Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India*




> The DRDO's curtain-raiser statement for Aero India 2011 suggests that* it will be displaying models of the air force and navy TEJAS Mk.2. *
> 
> There has been little clarity over the real design changes likely to be incorporated in the Mk.2, so to specifically mention the Mk.2 in its list of model displays suggests that there will be something to talk about.


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## rissriva

IndianArmy said:


> So even this Republik day no flying display by Tejas?? Only this??






Hathi ke dat dikhane ke kuch aur,khane ke kuch aur hote hai


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> But LSP 5 is not flying much Just 2 flights so far... seems to a kind of build problem w.r.t to LSP 5 .... which questions the HAL's capability



they are dilevered to IAF , so ADA website now not going to update on fights of these LSPs...


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## sudhir007



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## rissriva

Just saw Tejas flying over Sarjapur 1 hr back. What a vertical climb and maneuvers it showed... amazing1!!
Eagerly waiting for the big show of tejas at aero india...

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## jha

Tejas aerobatic display with smokewinders ahead of Aero India


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## jha




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## IndianArmy




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## shree835

WebMaster said:


> Why do we have to sing the song of arrogance again and again? JF-17 is not a 3rd generation fighter. Who says that JF-17 cant use the situational awareness effectively? Why would JF-17 lose in a dog fight? Because you want to?



JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17  .....Chacha .Only one question. Why your all weather friend Chinki Chinese has not inducted this immortal aircraft to his Air force.


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## IndianArmy

shree835 said:


> JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17 JF-17  .....Chacha .Only one question. Why your all weather friend Chinki Chinese has not inducted this immortal aircraft to his Air force.



You dug out a Post which is 4 years Old, and that too of Webbie?? Its Time to say Good Bye I guess....


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## jha



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## GORKHALI

jha said:


>









TEJAS will make your head spin

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>



Reminded me on this post:



ganimi kawa said:


> 1. *Tejas has all the adequete plumbing and attachments for a fixed IFR probe.* There have been many images of tejas with a Fixed probe like that on Mirage 2k.
> 
> This was what ADA had planned and was supposed to put this feature from PV-3 (or 2) onwards. This was mentioned in AI 05.
> 
> These are CAD images from ADA showing the probe and the plumbing arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. However, the plan was postponed due to weight and other issues. It was decided that early LSPs will start this process.




Wonder how much weight the fixed probe system add and if they can reduce so much weight to add them on the MK1 when they go to serial production.
The MK1 with IFR capability could be a good escort for our AWACS (with small RCS, BVR missiles, datalink guided by A50 Phalcon).


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## bhagat

Some more improvements needed in Tejas for IAF: Antony


Bangalore, Feb 7 (PTI) Defence Minister A K Antony today said some more improvements will have to be incorporated in the home grown Light Combat Aircraft Tejas to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force. "The Air Force wants some more improvements to be incorporated and I am sure DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) will be able to address these concerns too," he said, inaugurating the eighth edition of Aero India 2011 International Seminar here. Noting that Tejas has often been criticised for long delays, he said in most parts of the world, technological development precedes product development. "However, in case of Tejas, we attempted both at the same time. The reasons are not far to seek. Due to denial of some necessary technologies, we had to find solutions the hard way," he said. Despite all odds, engineers of DRRO and HAL finally handed Tejas over to IAF. Given the technology and time constraints, this has been accomplished in a reasonable time-frame, particularly comparison to other similar class of combat aircraft in the developed world, he said. He said the recent Initial Operation Clearance of Tejas was a "proud moment". Tejas is a system of systems product and it just cannot be developed in isolation or manufactured without help from others", he said. On January 10, India joined a select group of nations manufacturing war planes with 'Tejas', moving a step closer to its induction into the IAF after getting its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) here.

Some more improvements needed in Tejas for IAF: Antony, IBN Live News


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## sathya

any idea what will be the new maneuver LCA is gonna do, that is well above whatever was displayed b4 ? 
will have to wait and watch..
with f 414 s6 along the way ... i am getting goose bumps


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## trident2010

Hope they show some advanced manoeuvers. Inverted fly past is not enough


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## sathya

trident2010 said:


> Hope they show some advanced manoeuvers. Inverted fly past is not enough


 
it wont be simple inverted flight atleast.. coz its done long back...
*well beyond what was shown b4...*


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## sancho

Two questions, what is this white color and what kind of missiles are these?


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## rockstarIN

^^It does not look like R-73 though


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## dbc

rockstar said:


> ^^It does not look like R-73 though


 
looks like a smokewinder

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## sudhir007

..:: India Strategic ::. Indian Air Force: LCA: Delayed but still a Milestone Capability

Bangalore. Indias indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas finally got Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Jan 9, and with it, a milestone towards an advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) in the next decade.




Although the LCA was conceptualized as a successor to Mig 21 in the early 1980s, actual work on it started only in the 1990s, and Indias Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) literally had to handcraft several components and tools. Foreign technology was not available to India earlier, but is now, and several countries are willing to partner with India on further development of both manned and unmanned aircraft.

Dr Prahlada, one of Indias top military technology scientists and Chief Controller in DRDO, told India Strategic that preliminary work on the MCA had already started and that this aircraft should be operational in the next decade. But before that, LCA Mark II, with better engines, avionics and weapons load, should be out with a maiden flight by December 2014.

IAF has projected a requirement of 83 LCA Mark II for the time being.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Indias prime aeronautical institution which is now also making the Russian SU 30MKI under licence, is the principal partner in both the LCA and MCA programmes. With Transfer of Technology for various systems, HAL is set to leapfrog in certain hi-tech systems, including possibly the Kaveri engine on which the French Snecma provided valuable assistance and the Russians are now helping further development and tweaking. It should be used in both the LCAs and MCAs. Kaveri has been test flown on an IL 76 test bed.

Meanwhile though, for Mark II, GEs F414-GE-IN56 engine will be used. GE just won a competition for 99 afterburning engines and kits against Eurojet, and HAL is likely to acquire more than 99 engines that it tendered for. An initial batch will be supplied and the rest manufactured under ToT arrangement.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director Ashok Nayak told India Strategic that the IOC reflected customer confidence and that the Indian Air Force (IAF) had placed an order for 20 more aircraft in addition to the 20 already ordered.

These first 40 aircraft are to be powered by GE 404 engine, an earlier variant that has been used on F 18 Hornets and Gripen. Boeings Super Hornet FA 18 E/F and the Swedish Gripen (for India), which are in the fray for IAFs Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) competition, are powered by the GE 414.

Mr Nayak said that the LCA was jampacked with avionics, pipelines and wiring but the Mark II would be a bigger aircraft by a metre, with room to reallocate systems. It will have a fresh internal design with more wiring, bus and whatever although it would be a replica of its predecessor in looks.

LCA is designed to carry three missiles on each wing and one under belly. It can be configured to carry fuel pods, rocket pods, practice bombs, and 1000 pound bombs.

Built largely with composite materials, an LCA weighs nearly 10 tonnes and can carry four tonnes of payload. The MCA would be marginally more in weight but would carry higher payload, Mr Nayak said, adding that the aircraft would do formation flights and even aerobatics at the Aero India 2011.

DRDO and HAL appropriately held a ceremony for the Initial Operational Clearance and Defence Minister A K Antony handed over the formal Release to Service Certificate of Tejas to the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik. The minister also announced that the first flight of the LCA Navy should be expected soon.

IAF is planning to induct 200 LCAs for training and attack role and some more are expected to be inducted by the Indian Navy for shipboard assignments.

Air Chief Marshal Naik described the LCA as a Mig 21++, closer to Gripen in its Mark II development.

A Mig 21 is a very old platform, with limited flying time and onboard missiles. LCA, a fourth generation aircraft, is three times as powerful and can carry modern precision missiles for both air to air and air to ground missions. LCA also has ultramodern quadruplex digital fly by wire controls, a glass cockpit, sensors, multi mode radar and relaxed static stability. In addition, it can fly supersonic at all altitudes.

In fact, pilots flying the LCA are happy at its performance. It is small and tight but more comfortable, powerful and fun than a Mig 21, said one test pilot.

ACM Naik said that there was some more work to be done on the Tejas  he did not say what  but expressed confidence that it should be completed by mid-2011. He described the aircraft as successful fusion of designing, engineering and production.

The Release to Service certificate is prepared by Regional Center for Military Airworthiness, an organization under CEMILAC (Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification) which has thoroughly scrutinized the entire design, development, equipment testing and the results of flight testing of all the systems of Tejas over the last several months. This is the first time an indigenously designed and developed military fighter aircraft is being certified for Air Force operations. This occasion marks a very important achievement in the design and development of Tejas in particular and military aviation in the country as a whole, an official statement on the occasion stated.

The programme itself is spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO outfit, and supported by the Central Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR), some academic institutions, and public and private sector industrial units.

Mr Ashok Nayak said that open system computing interface standards had been adopted, making the Tejas upgradable with availability of better and faster processors for onboard computations.

Test facilities, integration rigs and simulators have been set up at several places in the country. However, the first few aircraft would operate from Bangalore itself as the LCA is still under development, and later, as the facilities being built at neighbouring Sulur airbase in southern India are complete, the first two squadrons would operate from there.

HAL engineers and scientists from ADA would continue to be involved in the health monitoring and further development of LCA, and that is why it would be operated not far from Bangalore, Indias aeronautical capital, Mr Nayak said.

An official statement issued at the IOC ceremony stated that 1508 flight tests had been completed on 11 Tejas aircraft and witnessed by both the IAF and Navy officials. A formation of five aircraft had also been flown, which Mr Nayak said, would be displayed at the Aero India.

LCA trials included sea level trials, completed at Goa and Arrakonam, hot weather trials at Nagpur, high altitude trials ay Leh and drop tank jettisoning at Chitradurga range. Night flying tests were also conducted.

The aircraft still has to undergo integration of BVR missiles, gun, rockets, unguided bombs, and expansion of flight envelope to -3.5 to 8 g for Final Operational Clearance (FOC).

Mr Nayak congratulated the DRDO and HAL engineers, saying that although the development of the LCA had taken time, it was effort and money well spent as it helped build indigenous capability in terms of infrastructure and trained personnel for more ambitious programmes.


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## angeldemon_007

Any info on lca mk2 design ?/


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## rockstarIN

angeldemon_007 said:


> Any info on lca mk2 design ?/


 
Wait, let the Aero India 2011 finish, there might be a display of MK2 Design.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> looks like a smokewinder


 
Here in action:






Found this too:



> *Tejas aerobatic display with smokewinders @ Aero India*
> 
> Here are the snapshots of India's Tejas flying with smokewinders ahead of Aero India. The first flight with smokewinders integrated was flown in Bangalore on Feb 2. Military sources tell Tarmak007 that two Tejas platforms (PV-2 & PV-3) will be demonstrating aerobatics on all 5 days of the show. On the first day, during the inaugural fly-past event, a Tejas formation (likely 5) will be the icing on the cake. Starting today, Tarmak007 will bring to you more exciting stories of India@Aero India.



Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas aerobatic display with smokewinders @ Aero India


EF, Gripen and Rafale are using the same on Aero India as well


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## IndianArmy

*LCA Tejas MK-2 Model*


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## jha

no mention of AESA radar in MK-II..?


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## farhan_9909

No mention of IRST,TVC,

and canards are also missing


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## angeldemon_007

They are using Multi mode radar instead of aesa. Structurally, i heard mk2 will have larger wing span. No IRST. I am confused, i don't think it will impress IAF. This is what IAF is expecting for mk1 and ADA is providing it in mk2.

I bet you guys, unless IAF is again forced to purchase lca (mk2). IAF will go for gripen. I also hope we go for gripen, we should just forget about tejas. We are no way close to Gripen as was claimed.

I thought IAF told ADA what they wanted. If not then its IAF fault also.

I think we should buy gripen and ask them for tot, then we can develop a lca mk3. Just expressing my dissapointment, don't take me seriously...


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## duhastmish

mk-2 without aesa ?????

nowonder IAF , want to keep away from this drdo product. 

make them to increase the numerical issues. 

i dont see them to be 4th gen untill mk-3


no big change in the air frame too - it seems all the same except for the engine and a few little tweaks.


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## SpArK

duhastmish said:


> mk-2 without aesa ?????
> 
> nowonder IAF , want to keep away from this drdo product.
> 
> make them to increase the numerical issues.
> 
> i dont see them to be 4th gen untill mk-3


 
They will be fitted/upgraded when they are ready.. otherwise no point in putting a product which doesn't exists. 

Anyway thoroughly dissapointed with new design.. expected a lot of structural changes including rectangular intakes and canards which would have made it on par with gripen on looks... 

This is a big let down


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## Agnostic_Indian

although it's not a beauty contest it looks as ugly as mk1..why are they always one step behind ?


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## satishkumarcsc

That is because it is a light aircraft and it is difficult to put an IRST inside it. Instead it will carry it in form of a pod.

No canards...because it might end up having LERX.

And AESA radar is not "God Sent". an MMR is easier to have in numbers for light aircraft. 

And the Air inlets arent redesigned so it wont take much time to go through the design analysis again.

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## rockstarIN

Im happy there is no canards, also IRST can be at one of the PODs overall, I'm happy with the new design.. IAF wants F-22 from DRDO? come on be practical...


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## SR 71 Blackbird

sancho said:


> Two questions, what is this white color and what kind of missiles are these?


 
Probably Derby or Python 5 AAM.


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## sudhir007

So there is no increasing in hard-point of mk-2. there are some report saying that mk-2 has biger air frame then mk-1 if it has.


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## GORKHALI



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## Agnostic_Indian

i think we will have to give the designing contract to "DILIP CHABRIYA "..lol.

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## GORKHALI



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## GORKHALI




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## farhan_9909

No IRST
NO AESA(MMR)
NO canards
NO CFT's
No other major structural improvements
N0 TVC
The above mentioned upgrades were very necessary for LCA MKII counting its 6 years developmen time


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## SpArK

Nothing new , that we already havent knew for some time... 

What a let down!

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## justanobserver

SpArK said:


> Nothing new , that we already havent knew for some time...
> 
> What a let down!


 
What were you guys expecting? 

AFAIK the ACM said the difference will only be in internal structure/wiring, plus the aircraft will 1 meter longer 


> Mr Nayak said that the LCA was jampacked with avionics, pipelines and wiring but the Mark II would be a bigger aircraft by a metre, with room to reallocate systems. It will have a fresh internal design with more wiring, bus and whatever *although it would be a replica of its predecessor in looks*.


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## SpArK

justanobserver said:


> What were you guys expecting?
> 
> AFAIK the ACM said the difference will only be in internal structure/wiring, plus the aircraft will 1 meter longer


 
We arent exactly waiting for a_ 1 metre long_ news..

A canard, rectangular intakes, changes in frontal nose were all expected , at least by me..

Ok good now.. what the good news is its 1 more meter long and has got more wires.. well and fine..


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## angeldemon_007

> NO AESA(MMR)


I think it might be because of Israel's decision not to sell aesa to India.


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## Storm Force

I metre longer to house the new bigger F414 engine and to carry more fuel or more weapons. 

 Those advocating TVC or Canards or CFT are proposing too many changes. IAF is using TEJAS as a stepping stone only to more advanced AMCA which is where we may see more of the features people are dfemanding.


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## SpArK

Storm Force said:


> I metre longer to house the new bigger F414 engine and to carry more fuel or more weapons.
> 
> Those advocating TVC or Canards or CFT are proposing too many changes. IAF is using TEJAS as a stepping stone only to more advanced AMCA which is where we may see more of the features people are dfemanding.


 
Thats why i said there are no major changes except engine( which we already know for sometime) and a retractable fuel probe. 

TVC is not mandatory but the other changes are well expected for a fighter jet that is the newest in the block of its catagory.. If they cant do much after all these years on mark2, i dont expect much from AMCA either.

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## Lord Of Gondor

We need to wait till 2014 to see these significant yet insignificant changes to Tejas????!!!


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## jha

No AESA and IRST..A complete Let down for me..


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## SpArK

Im gonna throw a stone at the mark2 pavilion when i visit it.

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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> Nothing new , that we already havent knew for some time...
> 
> What a let down!


 
why we need anything new ?? Why we need Canards ?if am not wrong LCA MK2 is based on naval LCA with with levcons ?? AESA will be present in LCA MK2 if it completed on time till then HAL PLAYS NO SPECULATION ,they presented a simple ,foot on the earth with no hi fundos stuff.. Am damn happy for it..


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## angeldemon_007

> Im gonna throw a stone at the mark2 pavilion when i visit it.


Throw one stone for me also.


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> why we need anything new ?? Why we need Canards ?if am not wrong LCA MK2 is based on naval LCA with with levcons ?? AESA will be present in LCA MK2 if it completed on time till then HAL PLAYS NO SPECULATION ,they presented a simple ,foot on the earth with no hi fundos stuff.. Am damn happy for it..


 
Coz its supposed to be the bloody next version.. All the fighters had considerable structural changes (eg:F-18s) .. the world is fast changing so are the generations of fighters... putting a new engine and a new probe doesnt really digest to my concept of the newer version even though it was much expected.. i wanted this platform to evolve into something that can even be exported to other countries. Remember if in that case it will be competing against the F-16s and Gripens... now tell me does it really stand a chance..when more advanced Gripens are there as alternatives...


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## GORKHALI

jha said:


> No AESA and IRST..A complete Let down for me..


 

jha ji!! You tell me why Should HAL speculate ?? AESA still not completed and INTERNAL IRST is not in IAF ASR ,SO why not simply carry IRST POD as many aircrafts still doing even superhornet too till now...

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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> Coz its supposed to be the bloody next version.. All the fighters had considerable structural changes (eg:F-18s) .. the world is fast changing so are the generations of fighters... putting a new engine and a new probe doesnt really digest to my concept of the newer version even though it was much expected.. i wanted this platform to evolve into something that can even be exported to other countries. Remember if in that case it will be competing against the F-16s and Gripens... now tell me does it really stand a chance..when more advanced Gripens are there as alternatives...


 
if gripen NG GOING TO COST 40MILLION DOLLAR , I BE NEXT TO YOU ??


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## jha

CANARDS and Flat nozzle was something which i did not expect..
TVC is something which better not be there in a small plane like LCA..

BUT AESA and IRST was something which was absolutely essential for a plan which will hit serial production line in 2016-2017...What a waste..


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> if gripen NG GOING TO COST 40MILLION DOLLAR , I BE NEXT TO YOU ??


 
We will stand together if anybody else other than IAF buys this for 40 million.


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## prototype

Agree with Spark,as far as i am concerned I hoped for AESA and CFT,now all in vain,what we got is a i meter long metal piece.


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## Lord Of Gondor

SpArK said:


> Coz its supposed to be the bloody next version.. All the fighters had considerable structural changes (eg:F-18s) .. the world is fast changing so are the generations of fighters... putting a new engine and a new probe doesnt really digest to my concept of the newer version even though it was much expected.. i wanted this platform to evolve into something that can even be exported to other countries. Remember if in that case it will be competing against the F-16s and Gripens... now tell me does it really stand a chance..when more advanced Gripens are there as alternatives...


 I agree with you completely!!!!This is the time for Ipods and not for the Duracell powered Walkman's!!!I have lost hope further,seeing the AMCA model and this is probably where i feel like "pre-owned" Mirage-2000's are better than Homegrown mark-2 Tejas!!!!


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## angeldemon_007

> jha ji!! You tell me why Should HAL speculate ?? AESA still not completed and INTERNAL IRST is not in IAF ASR ,SO why not simply carry IRST POD as many aircrafts still doing even superhornet too till now...


Then why is the first flight supposed to be in 2014 and then final induction by 2016 ? I mean its just a damn upgrade, which we have done on other platform also. The actual problem is these guys claimed alot. Now just tell me how they are gonna develop a 5th gen fighter and a UCAV when they are barely reaching a 4th gen level even in mk2.

The least they could do is just select a damn partner for AESA and let them work on that.



> I feel like "pre-owned" Mirage-2000's are better than Homegrown mark-2 Tejas!!!!


We could also buy F16 block 60 or Gripen NG.

I also think the in flight refueling is not necessary for the fighter like LCA. Its not meant for long range missions.


----------



## SpArK

Bharadwaj said:


> I agree with you completely!!!!This is the time for Ipods and not for the Duracell powered Walkman's!!!I have lost hope further,seeing the AMCA model and this is probably where i feel like "pre-owned" Mirage-2000's are better than Homegrown mark-2 Tejas!!!!


 
Mark3 , another meter long and a possible AESA will be announced in 2020.. i guess..

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## jha

PANDORA said:


> jha ji!! You tell me why Should HAL speculate ?? AESA still not completed and INTERNAL IRST is not in IAF ASR ,SO why not simply carry IRST POD as many aircrafts still doing even superhornet too till now...


 
Who is asking them to speculate..I am just asking them to do the bloody job..If in next 6-7 years they can not hope to have AESA ready, then why not buy it..Whats the use of inducting an already obsolete plane and waste a production line..
Regarding external IRST-- LCA already has less hard points. If a hardpoint is engaged for carrying IRST pod then the plane will be of little more use than point defence..


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## SpArK

MRCA + a seperate order for Grippen with JV with TATA and co looks a better option now.

Gripen has already announced a plan to _design and manufacture_ fighter jets with TATA's.. let the private players work on filling"this" gap while ADA utilise all their resources with co operating on FGFA and doing the work on AMCA asap..


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## Lord Of Gondor

SpArK said:


> Mark3 , another meter long and a possible AESA will be announced in 2020.. i guess..


 
And it will come with new GE F-424 KMA(Kiss my a**) engine with 100.1 KN after burning thrust,new Philips HID's for the lights mounted on the front landing gear,spare wheels and TPMS(Tyre pressure monitoring system),ejection seats with tri-coloured parachutes,swimming goggles and an INSAS 5.56 with burst fire option!!!!!

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## prototype

given that they r ready to buy engines from outside,I dont know what is stopping them buying AESA.

Either u develop it or otherwise buy it,afterall money is not that big issue.


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## SpArK

Does anybody has the email id of IAF chief.. lets email him and ask him to say "he is not at all satisfied with this one"..


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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter recently officially declared to go for AESA project. We could become a partner in that. 

If we decide to go for an aesa for Su30 mki, then we could also ask for a technological help in our aesa project.


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## GORKHALI

angeldemon_007 said:


> Then why is the first flight supposed to be in 2014 and then final induction by 2016 ? I mean its just a damn upgrade, which we have done on other platform also. The actual problem is these guys claimed alot. Now just tell me how they are gonna develop a 5th gen fighter and a UCAV when they are barely reaching a 4th gen level even in mk2.
> 
> The least they could do is just select a damn partner for AESA and let them work on that.
> 
> 
> We could also buy F16 block 60 or Gripen NG.
> 
> I also think the in flight refueling is not necessary for the fighter like LCA. Its not meant for long range missions.


 
CFT is still not there for many aircrafts ,you name it ...
AESA work is still not complete ,so you see they not claiming anything. They gave you the basic idea of LCA MK2 ,and am sure they still not started developing it except in drawing board so expect changes.

Because of similar kinda attitude by airforce Mk1 get late ,all they want is high end star ship stuff in a small plane with out even knowing where our industrial capability stands . Now HAL realised that and they came up with this sasta,sunder ,tikauu .


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> CFT is still not there for many aircrafts ,you name it ...
> AESA work is still not complete ,so you see they not claiming anything. They gave you the basic idea of LCA MK2 ,and am sure they still not started developing it except in drawing board so expect changes.
> 
> Because of similar kinda attitude by airforce Mk1 get late ,all they want is high end star ship stuff in a small plane with out even knowing where our industrial capability stands . Now HAL realised that and they came up with this sasta,sunder ,tikauu .


 


Then is nt it better to call it as an "upgrade' on the first version rather than calling it mark2.?

We, the citizens of the republic of India needs surprises and the 'wow' factor especially since the threat perceptions are great from neighbourhood and around...


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## SpArK

angeldemon_007 said:


> Eurofighter recently officially declared to go for AESA project. We could become a partner in that.
> 
> If we decide to go for an aesa for Su30 mki, then we could also ask for a technological help in our aesa project.


 
I say 'trick' the Saab on AESA ToT by buying a few..


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## prototype

PANDORA said:


> CFT is still not there for many aircrafts ,you name it ...
> AESA work is still not complete ,so you see they not claiming anything. They gave you the basic idea of LCA MK2 ,and am sure they still not started developing it except in drawing board so expect changes.
> 
> Because of similar kinda attitude by airforce Mk1 get late ,all they want is high end star ship stuff in a small plane with out even knowing where our industrial capability stands . Now HAL realised that and they came up with this sasta,sunder ,tikauu .


 
What attitude r u talking about.why should IAF accept it anyway,when the entire world is moving 1 generation ahead.

After 5-6 yrs we will be witnessing most of the nation's inducting 5th gen planes,6th gen research started on and advanced upgraded version's of 4.5 gen planes,and we will be arriving with a 4th gen plane which will be completely obsolete in the coming 10 yrs.


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## SpArK

Haa.. here we go the date is fixed.. 

AIRSHOW-India plans to award huge fighter deal by March 2012 | Reuters


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## Lord Of Gondor

PANDORA said:


> CFT is still not there for many aircrafts ,you name it ...
> AESA work is still not complete ,so you see they not claiming anything. They gave you the basic idea of LCA MK2 ,and am sure they still not started developing it except in drawing board so expect changes.
> 
> Because of similar kinda attitude by airforce Mk1 get late ,all they want is high end star ship stuff in a small plane with out even knowing where our industrial capability stands . Now HAL realised that and they came up with this sasta,sunder ,tikauu .


 
But an AESA radar,IRST are not star-war equipments that HAL needs to integrate into Tejas mark-2.Add to that they have 3 more effing years before the first lot of the GE F-414 starts arriving,giving them enough time to prepare.They could have at least announced that Tejas will have the above mentioned components and tried to integrate them!!!!!


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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> Then is nt it better to call it as an "upgrade' on the first version rather than calling it mark2.?
> 
> We, the citizens of the republic of India needs surprises and the 'wow' factor especially since the threat perceptions are great from neighbourhood and around...


 
if threat perception is so much then let the govt nurture young talent in school and colleges .Ma father still working in Pechora SAM as weapon fitter ,and he have high regards for DRDO supplied radars and components than russian rusted radars Work less and spend more time at 7BRD gaziabad for maintence.


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## jha

SpArK said:


> I say 'trick' the Saab on AESA ToT by buying a few..


 
Why Few..? Why not award the whole deal to them..
Would love to see the reaction of RAFALE and EF fans...


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> if threat perception is so much* then let the govt nurture young talent in school and colleges *.Ma father still working in Pechora SAM as weapon fitter ,and he have high regards for DRDO supplied radars and components than russian rusted radars Work less and spend more time at 7BRD gaziabad for maintence.


 
Country cant wait for the school and college kids to get mature and work for DRDO and make cutting edge technologies, the need of the hour is securing the nation.. There is no country in the world which is in the middle of 2 aggressive nuclear powered nations.. 

This is not about getting proud on indigenous technologies.. this is about the security of nation. 

IAF chief during the IOC has compared the jet with Gripen, so he has it in his mind and its expected that during its induction it has to be on par, which is sadly not.


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Why Few..? Why not award the whole deal to them..
> Would love to see the reaction of RAFALE and EF fans...


 
We need Dassaults help in AMCA


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## GORKHALI

Bharadwaj said:


> But an AESA radar,IRST are not star-war equipments that HAL needs to integrate into Tejas mark-2.Add to that they have 3 more effing years before the first lot of the GE F-414 starts arriving,giving them enough time to prepare.They could have at least announced that Tejas will have the above mentioned components and tried to integrate them!!!!!


 
see simply you now drifting from earlier post that why HAL claims so much but deliever less but now they claiming less untill they acieved this they not going to promise anything .. you might see AESA in 2013 Aero india 
but let me be clear that Airforce issue no ASR FOR IRST or CFT for tejas mk2 ,so why should HAL do matha pechi to revise their ASR again ....


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## SpArK

Ok guys now lets all wait for the IOC and possible FOC of Mk2 , by that time the mark3 design will be out.. hopefully


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## ganimi kawa

Here are my two cents about the LCA mk2.


* First, let me make it clear that the die hard jingo in me is extremely angry at this and most probably join benny in his stone pelting spree!

I did expect some changes in the mk2 design (at least hoping it would "look" a bit cooler!).. And that is not the case!




Now, after my rant mode was off, I decided to give this design a consideration and here is what I found out!



** ABSOLUTE SHOCKERS!*

*1. Intake design---*
Looks like the shape of intakes will remain same with increase in size. We should have opted for diamond shaped intakes for more stealth.

*2. No IRST---*
Nobody here (AI) is willing to comment on that. IRST pod is the only solution now.




**GRAY AREAS*

_*1. No AESA?*_
My angry queries were met with following cryptic questions--

- What makes me so sure that MMR will not be an AESA in the future? (Naam me kya rakha hai, dost?, they said.)

- Have I heard of something called *"project uttam"*? 

- Do I believe that IAF will field a craft without AESA 20 years from now?

Draw your own results from these questions, guys!




** NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT*

*1. No Canards-*
There is absolutely no need for canards, we have enough lift and the cranked delta gives enough maneuverability. This has been tested and proved!


*2. No CFT-*
Not required at all. The IAF never asked for it. As for the fuel section, there are some surprises, keep on reading.


*3. No TVC-*
Adding TVC on such a light plane could be very very troublesome. Loss benefit ratio is more than one!





** IMPROVEMENTS-*

*1. Internal fuel-*
Looking at the side tanks, spine and wings, the internal fuel will be increased by around 30 to 40 percent.
Combine this with the fuel sipping GE 414 and weight loss ; you have a substantial increase in range and endurance!

*2. IFR-*
Retractable IFR probe means no increase in RCS.

*3. Internal Jammer-*
Some very good stuff is coming for that!

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## Lord Of Gondor

PANDORA said:


> see simply you now drifting from earlier post that why HAL claims so much but deliever less but now they claim less untill they acieved this they not going to promise anything .. you might see AESA in 2013 Aero india
> but let me be clear that Airforce issue no ASR FOR IRST or CFT for tejas mk2 ,so why should HAL do matha pechi to revise their ASR again ....


 
I am not drifting away from your core opinion but i'm trying to comprehend what HAL will achieve by rolling out a forth gen aircraft in 2014 which will come into serial production in 2018!!!!That's late even by our "strict" time lines.Just because the ASR did not mention the components does not mean that they have to shy away from installing them BTW,it's just a requirement so if HAL builds a 4.5 gen Tejas as opposed to a 4 gen one,it's not like IAF will reject them!!!!They have to innovate not renovate!!!!!


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## tallboy123

SpArK said:


> Haa.. here we go the date is fixed..
> 
> AIRSHOW-India plans to award huge fighter deal by March 2012 | Reuters


 

MRCA fCked UP.....

they will award the MRCA in 2012..
delivery will start by 2018...
By that time all the MRCA contenders will be Obsolete..

Wat MOD's plans,didn't the contenders of MRCA drop some cash in Anthony's pockets????


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## GORKHALI

ganimi kawa said:


> Here are my two cents about the LCA mk2.
> 
> 
> * First, let me make it clear that the die hard jingo in me is extremely angry at this and most probably join benny in his stone pelting spree!
> 
> I did expect some changes in the mk2 design (at least hoping it would "look" a bit cooler!).. And that is not the case!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, after my rant mode was off, I decided to give this design a consideration and here is what I found out!
> 
> 
> 
> ** ABSOLUTE SHOCKERS!*
> 
> 1. Intake design---
> Looks like the shape of intakes will remain same with increase in size. We should have opted for diamond shaped intakes for more stealth.
> 
> 2. No IRST---
> Nobody here (AI) is willing to comment on that. IRST pod is the only solution now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **GRAY AREAS*
> 
> 1. No AESA?
> My angry queries were met with following cryptic questions--
> 
> - What makes me so sure that MMR will not be an AESA in the future? (Naam me kya rakha hai, dost?, they said.)
> 
> - Have I heard of something called *"project uttam"*?
> 
> - Do I believe that IAF will field a craft without AESA 20 years from now?
> 
> Draw your own results from these questions, guys!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT*
> 
> 1. No Canards-
> There is absolutely no need for canards, we have enough lift and the cranked delta gives enough maneuverability. This has been tested and proved!
> 
> 
> 2. No CFT-
> Not required at all. The IAF never asked for it. As for the fuel section, there are some surprises, keep on reading.
> 
> 
> 3. No TVC-
> Adding TVC on such a light plane could be very very troublesome. Loss benefit ratio is more than one!


 
Ganimi ji mein yahi samjahte smajahte thak gaya 
1>why we need CFT WHEN IAF DINT ASKED FOR?
2>AESA WILL BE THERE FOR SURE BUT THEY NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING FOR NOW.
3>hard point will increase to 10for sure ,Ganimi ji shed some lite ok ?
4>IRST POD IS ONLY SOLUTION FOR MK2
5>DELTA WING IS DAMN GOOD FOR MANUEVERING,WHY WE NEED TO CHANGE IT VIA INDUCING CANARDS??

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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


> MRCA fCked UP.....
> 
> they will award the MRCA in 2012..
> delivery will start by 2018...
> By that time all the MRCA contenders will be Obsolete..
> 
> Wat MOD's plans,didn't the contenders of MRCA drop some cash in Anthony's pockets????


 
I think they should announce it after december 21 , 2012.. There is a possibility for the world to end... so why waste money ...

I dont know why they need an year for announcing it.. do they need to learn reading english to read the evaluation report which is already ready? or do they need a year's negotiations to choose one...


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## Lord Of Gondor

tallboy123 said:


> MRCA fCked UP.....
> 
> they will award the MRCA in 2012..
> delivery will start by 2018...
> By that time all the MRCA contenders will be Obsolete..
> 
> Wat MOD's plans,didn't the contenders of MRCA drop some cash in Anthony's pockets????


 
OFF TOPIC-Mr.Anthony is the most clean handed congressman in India IMO.But an incapable Defence minister nevertheless.I thought that the MMRCA tender's were called in order to replace our suicide drones i.e the fishbeds but the MOD is waiting for all of them to crash then their reports will be out and then the Supreme Court will b****slap them for not modernizing our AF then the MOD will down select some fighters and after all this drama,the contacts will be signed!!!!

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## IND151

PANDORA said:


> why we need anything new ?? Why we need Canards ?if am not wrong LCA MK2 is based on naval LCA with with levcons ?? AESA will be present in LCA MK2 if it completed on time till then HAL PLAYS NO SPECULATION *,they presented a simple ,foot on the earth with no hi fundos stuff.. Am damn happy for it..*


 
me too! this way they will be able to complete work on time.


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## sancho

That model is just an older MK1 model, named MK2 for the show, but if you look at it there are no changes, not even the new auxiliary power unit is correctly shown, let alone new air intakes and fuselage changes, which are required for the GE 414 engines. Also how they want to increase the fuel without airframe changes (fuselage, or bigger wings), so take this presentation with a pinch of salt.
IAF, IN and MoD officials numerously stated that MK2 will have AESA radar, so keeping MMR is more than doubtful!

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## ganimi kawa

* Breaking news!*

*After a lot of hammering I was finally told that this is not the final design!* This is one of the early concepts when two models were being developed for two engines in the fray.

*This will change!*


Though, we do not know how much the change will be! LEVCON is still a strong possibility.


@ Sancho,
There are some changes in the fuselage in this model. Intake size and shape, however, remains the same. We were told to assume that the size of intakes is larger!

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## GORKHALI

gamimi ji kha tha IN LOGO KO LCA MK2 DESIGN IS STILL NOT OUT BUT IN DRAWING BOARD  saala mein to shaab ban gaya


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## Markus

There were news reports earlier that GoI has authorised 542 million dollars for the MK2 version.

If so much money has been allocated then there has to be a lot of changes plus some massive system integration.

I am convinced Tejas MK2 is going to take yet another decade and I am going to stop following this one. 

All my focus is going be on AMCA now.


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> @ Sancho,
> There are some changes in the fuselage in this model. Intake size and shape, however, remains the same. We were told to assume that the size of intakes is larger!


 
So it remains the same for the model, but will be larger for the real one? Any confirmation on AESA and IRST?


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## Mani2020

SpArK said:


> Nothing new , that we already havent knew for some time...
> 
> *What a let down!*



This is not the first time ,is it?


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## Mani2020

tallboy123 said:


> MRCA fCked UP.....
> 
> they will award the MRCA in 2012..
> delivery will start by 2018...
> By that time all the MRCA contenders will be Obsolete..
> 
> Wat MOD's plans,didn't the contenders of MRCA drop some cash in Anthony's pockets????


 
Till then all the mig-21's will crash, i think they are waiting for all the migs to crash first then order MRCA


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## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> 1.So it remains the same for the model, but will be larger for the real one?
> 
> 2. Any confirmation on AESA and IRST?


 

1. Yes, that seems to be the case. *Some intake changes (inspired by Sea harrier) will be seen as early as NP-2 (fighter version) roll out.*


2. IRST---- No response from the authorities. Maybe with the radar and the retractable fuel probe, they ran out of the real estate to accommodate the IRST. *IRST+ targetting pod combo on the 8th pylon is a possibility.*

AESA--- Lot of cryptic questions thrown back at me (see earlier post). *Though I'm willing to bet my money on IAF getting an AESA on the mk2 by it's FOC in 2016.*


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## Mani2020

No offence but personally i was expecting atleast IRST and AESA ,as many indian members were speaking about these goodies in MK1 and calling it 4.5 generation aircraft but now even the MK2 doesnot have these things so how can it be now 4.5 generation aircraft even the MK2 so far doesnot seem a 4.5 generation aircraft

Note: reply on logical bases rather then sentiments ,don't troll .be constructive


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## rockstarIN

It seems everybody was in high exceptions for Mk-2.

If Canard was there, it would not take this much curse..


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## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> No offence but personally i was expecting atleast IRST and AESA ,as many indian members were speaking about these goodies in MK1 and calling it 4.5 generation aircraft but now even the MK2 doesnot have these things so how can it be now 4.5 generation aircraft even the MK2 so far doesnot seem a 4.5 generation aircraft
> 
> Note: reply on logical bases rather then sentiments ,don't troll .be constructive


 
Only french and US have EASA production now. ELTA not ready to share the 2052 coz of US pressure. *AESA cant be find in Himalayas.*

Who are expecting AESAs in 2015 for LCA?


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## PoKeMon

Is it LCA Mk 2 just a name given to lengthy LCA Mk 1?
I thinks its another time seeking plot of DRDO. They simply says we are unable to deliver low quality product but will give you advance later
Where are all you pakistanis??? Please bash DRDO from my side too, I am feeling helpless


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## PoKeMon

SpArK said:


> I think they should announce it after december 21 , 2012.. There is a possibility for the world to end... so why waste money ...


 
Actually its not like that. 
Our MRCA deal results will bring the world war among competing nations and then world will be doomed 9 months later.


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## SQ8

It is truly a disappointment.. I cant even tell the two models apart..

I see two possibilities
1. Right now.. there are so many changes planned that the model here may not have been representative of them. Changes that were concrete(engine, Jammer etc) have been mentioned.
Other changes such as aerodynamic improvements/avionics/weapons may not have been finalized yet and therefore were not mentioned to avoid confusion in case these were later changed/dropped altogether.

2. The IAF has decided to give a straight "dont want it" to HAL.. deciding that its current upgrade programs can serve it much better and much more effectively..the numbers that will be inducted out of a sense of pride for HAL will be relegated to second line tasks.
It also means that the AMCA will now be a much bigger and much more regulated program compared to previous requirements.


----------



## Mani2020

rockstar said:


> Only french and US have EASA production now. ELTA not ready to share the 2052 coz of US pressure. *AESA cant be find in Himalayas.*
> 
> Who are expecting AESAs in 2015 for LCA?


 
You guys should have thought that before jumping to conclusion that Tejas will be a 4.5 generation aircraft .

Secondly there is no reason for taking it personal like you did , i said what indian members are saying here, for few minutes forget about my flags and think logically rather then basing your statements on sentiments 

Constructive criticism is always good,as it will help people to come up with something better.Taking everything as fine just because something is home-grown or made by local company will not do anything good to you or your local industry ,because at the end they will have this thing in mind that nobody is here to criticize them on their poor performance and people are accepting anything coming out from them on the bases of blind patriotism rather then pointing-out the faults in the product .

If your behavior will be same that anything that is home-grown is not their to criticize if it has some faults just because it may make your people guilty will not do anything good to your country.

I hope this time you will take this as constructive argument without focusing on my flags


----------



## GORKHALI

Mani2020 said:


> No offence but personally i was expecting atleast IRST and AESA ,as many indian members were speaking about these goodies in MK1 and calling it 4.5 generation aircraft but now even the MK2 doesnot have these things so how can it be now 4.5 generation aircraft even the MK2 so far doesnot seem a 4.5 generation aircraft
> 
> Note: reply on logical bases rather then sentiments ,don't troll .be constructive


 
After a lot of hammering I was
finally told that this is not the final
design! This is one of the early concepts when two models were
being developed for two engines in
the fray. This will change! Though, we do not know how much
the change will be! LEVCON is still a
strong possibility. Courtsey gamini ji


> *if you can't read this either you the one who trolling here , or you mite ignored his posts for pushing your B.S posts.. *


----------



## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> You guys should have thought that before jumping to conclusion that Tejas will be a 4.5 generation aircraft .
> 
> Secondly there is no reason for taking it personal like you did , i said what indian members are saying here, for few minutes forget about my flags and think logically rather then basing your statements on sentiments
> 
> Constructive criticism is always good,as it will help people to come up with something better.Taking everything as fine just because something is home-grown or made by local company will not do anything good to you or your local industry ,because at the end they will have this thing in mind that nobody is here to criticize them on their poor performance and people are accepting anything coming out from them on the bases of blind patriotism rather then pointing-out the faults in the product .
> 
> If your behavior will be same that anything that is home-grown is not their to criticize if it has some faults just because it may make your people guilty will not do anything good to your country.
> 
> I hope this time you will take this as constructive argument without focusing on my flags


 
Lengthy lecture but where did you find out from my most that I took it personally and there is a personal attack on you?

my reply was purely technical, I just said AESA is not available now in the world to share by the countries who has it alone(means they will provide you along with the air craft, like F-18, Rafale)

Do not take all emotionally.


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## Mani2020

PANDORA said:


> After a lot of hammering I was
> finally told that this is not the final
> design! This is one of the early concepts when two models were
> being developed for two engines in
> the fray. This will change! Though, we do not know how much
> the change will be! LEVCON is still a
> strong possibility. Courtsey gamini ji
> if you can't read this either you the one who trolling here , or you mite ignored his posts for pushing your B.S posts..


 
I said based upon what i saw ,i can't make claims or arguments on things which are still to be seen in indefinite future ,so before bashing anyone or tagging anyone Troll , ask your people why they have Displayed this model with a tag of MK2 ,if its not going to be a real future model,

I seriously hope that it will not take another decade to come up with MK2 .

Should we stop here now ,so this thread doesnot get ruined by some B.S biased comments 

enjoy!


----------



## rockstarIN

santro said:


> It is truly a disappointment.. I cant even tell the two models apart..
> 
> I see two possibilities
> 1. Right now.. there are so many changes planned that the model here may not have been representative of them. Changes that were concrete(engine, Jammer etc) have been mentioned.
> Other changes such as aerodynamic improvements/avionics/weapons may not have been finalized yet and therefore were not mentioned to avoid confusion in case these were later changed/dropped altogether.
> 
> 2. The IAF has decided to give a straight "dont want it" to HAL.. deciding that its current upgrade programs can serve it much better and much more effectively..the numbers that will be inducted out of a sense of pride for HAL will be relegated to second line tasks.
> It also means that the AMCA will now be a much bigger and much more regulated program compared to previous requirements.


 
The first option is very unlikely, if it is true, then there will be an MK-3(heck of this versions now)


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## Kinetic

rockstar said:


> Only french and US have EASA production now. ELTA not ready to share the 2052 coz of US pressure. *AESA cant be find in Himalayas.*
> 
> Who are expecting AESAs in 2015 for LCA?


 
*AESA project for Tejas scheduled to completion in 2014. * There are already many AESA radar projects going on and the spin off technologies will be used.


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## Mani2020

rockstar said:


> Lengthy lecture but where did you find out from my most that I took it personally and there is a personal attack on you?
> 
> my reply was purely technical, I just said AESA is not available now in the world to share by the countries who has it alone(means they will provide you along with the air craft, like F-18, Rafale)
> 
> Do not take all emotionally.


 
I never take such things personally ,obviously we are here to share our view point,which may differ most of the times but everyone has his own share of thinking .

As far as it is constructive its all fine


enjoy


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## Kinetic

I can see any major structural changes that means they are quite happy with current aerodynamics of the Tejas. Many internal changes like newer engine with more thrust, upgraded avionics, AESA radar, jammer etc.


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## Gene

this is not tejas mk-2,someone wrongly paste a sticker on it..


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## GORKHALI

Kinetic said:


> *AESA project for Tejas scheduled to completion in 2014. * There are already many AESA radar projects going on and the spin off technologies will be used.


 
exactly that waz the reply to ganimi by officials , They mentioned about project UTTAM ...


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## rockstarIN

Kinetic said:


> *AESA project for Tejas scheduled to completion in 2014. * There are already many AESA radar projects going on and the spin off technologies will be used.


 
Yes, but all still going on, and no light at end of the tunnel till 2015. Only hope for LCA was ELTA 2052. French, Sweden wont give theirs without their aircraft. No good news about Russians...EF one is years away..


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## Kinetic

PANDORA said:


> exactly that waz the reply to ganimi by officials , They mentioned about project UTTAM ...


 
Thanks dude. Where is ganimiji's post?


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## GORKHALI

Kinetic said:


> Thanks dude. Where is ganimiji's post?


 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/92528-aero-india-first-impression-lca-mk-2-a-3.html

bottom most.


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## Gene

this model is looks exactly same as mk-1.there is no change in intake or the airframe.only thing i mark a slight change in its _length_ apart from a retractable refueling pod which suggests that, this prototype model is based on only the future f-414 engine which is finalised.
other things like AESA radars,IRST are not finalised upto now,so they don't appear in the model.

this model is not final, it will change.


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## satishkumarcsc

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Probably Derby or Python 5 AAM.


 
Thats a smokewinder............


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## angeldemon_007

> Im happy there is no canards, also IRST can be at one of the PODs overall, I'm happy with the new design.. IAF wants F-22 from DRDO? come on be practical...


Then why did they claimed so many things in the beginning ??/ They were the ones who compared the aircraft to gripen. IAF never asked for a F22, it is asking for a decent 4th gen fighter. ADA is still giving them mig++ which was our requirement in 1990 not in 2011.

As far as being practical is concerned, they should have worked on the future projects before declaring them in public (AMCA, AURA). They themselves make fool of them.

I mean do you even know AMCA might even get cancelled at this stage. Right now govt. has given them some 275 million$ to carry out feasibility report then only the project will be sanctioned. 

Not to mention, if they fail to carry out the feasibility report, the project will be cancelled. How practical are they, when they declared their plan before even thinking whether they had the capability of building it or not ?/

They are not able to build a decent 4th gen fighter and they are dreaming of building a 5th gen fighter (according to some idiots 6th gen fighter) and an UCAV.


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## IND151

IND_PAK said:


> Actually its not like that.
> Our MRCA deal results will bring the world war among competing nations and then world will be doomed 9 months later.


 
no actually *GOI will announce the winner of MMRCA a decade later* *and actually introducing aircrafts will take another 5 years.*  *so till 2026 world cant end.* *even dooms day will have to wait for result of MMRCA. so India may get noble prize for peace for postponing dooms day.  *

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## palash_kol

It was said that LCA MK-II will have larger wing area. But I dont see any increase of wing area. 

And we should add IRST in LCA MK-II.


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## trident2010

*Tejas to be inducted into IAF by next year*


BANGALORE: The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' will be inducted into the Indian Air Force by 2012 and its advanced version will be ready for operational service by the end of 2015.

"LCA Tejas Mk-I would be ready for induction by 2012. The LCA Mk-II would take another three years and would be inducted by 2015," Defence Minister A K Antony told reporters here today.

Last month, the Tejas had moved a step closer to its induction after it was granted the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by the Indian Air Force.

Asked about the possible induction date of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), Antony said, "All the difficulties related to the aircraft were over and the preliminary design Contract has also been signed. We hope it will be inducted by 2017."

Dismissing reports about US offer to India for joining the American fifth generation fighter aircraft programme, the Defence Minister said a decision in this regard has already been taken and there was no question on going back on the deal with Russia in this regard.

"No other country has offered to work with us for jointly developing a fifth generation fighter aircraft," he added.

On comparison between the Chinese and Indian fifth generation fighters, Antony said the Indian FGFA was the best aircraft in the world to meet the requirements of the country's armed forces.

On the programme to jointly develop a multirole transport aircraft with Russia, he said the programme was cleared four years ago by the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) and all formalities in this regard have been completed



:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

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## skyisthelimit

SpArK said:


> Im gonna throw a stone at the mark2 pavilion when i visit it.


 
you should throw your shoes.....considering the amount of time and costs its development has taken......plus with limited technology........

god knows what our GR8 scientists are capable of....


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## SixSigma1978

skyisthelimit said:


> you should throw your shoes.....considering the amount of time and costs its development has taken......plus with limited technology........
> 
> god knows what our GR8 scientists are capable of....


 
Not really. I think the experience of building your OWN fighter is really the prize here. Just like India started with the SLV, ASLV, PSLV, GSLV (hope they sort out its kinks) in the space program - the real bonanza is self -reliance and the learning to become self reliant in the technologies that are the riders in such a complex venture.
With the involvement of the nascent private sector under the new policy - I think TEJAS is just the beginning in the long road ahead of building world class/potent fighters with an ambition to join the league of the Big Guns who have already mastered the art.

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## Water Car Engineer

I didnt expect Canards or anything..


But not even a IRST system ....

That blllooowwws......

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## Roybot

palash_kol said:


> It was said that LCA MK-II will have larger wing area. But I dont see any increase of wing area.
> 
> And we should add IRST in LCA MK-II.


 
The MK-II as mentioned earlier will be a 1 meter longer then MK-I. Don't think they can increase the length of the plane without increasing its wing area. So definitely increase in the wing area for MK-II is there.


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## angeldemon_007

> It was said that LCA MK-II will have larger wing area. But I dont see any increase of wing area.


Yeah, i also heard that, instead they are just increasing the length of the previous one by 1m. Apart from this they are changing the engine which they could have done in mk1 also. Also there are some changes in avionics and mission computer and display etc. but it looks like mk1 was made in hurry and mk2 is just fixing what was wrong and not adding what was needed.


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## sathya

to me it seems , MK 2 changes represent the corrections in MK 1 faults,
next 4 years is the fine we are paying for failure of kaveri , and other short comings,
while it may still add range to air craft if any one was complaining about that...


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## sathya

only thing that i cannot understand is why f 4o4 - f 414 - snecma ?
why not we directly buy engines and tech from snecma ?
isn t that save time for future corrections ?
why do have to go for f 414 in between and loosing some years


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## sathya

that only means winner of mrca is F 18 , gripen or rafale
otherwise its a total waste of time for LCA 
personally i would have preferred EFT engine for LCA and EFT for MMRCA ... it looks that is not going to happen


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Two questions, what is this white color and what kind of missiles are these?


 As per the BR discussion which i remember .. those white patches on the wings are some structural paints(dont remember the exact name) to understand the stress


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## kingdurgaking

IndianArmy said:


> *LCA Tejas MK-2 Model*


 
Now MK2 makes more sense ... with no additional points and introduction of IFR(retractable) will free up the pylons for heavier payload or multi rack missile... There are no much changes except the length being increased by 0.5m and height by 0.2m .. wondering how much fuel capacity it will increase... but no AESA


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## rockstarIN

angeldemon_007 said:


> Then why did they claimed so many things in the beginning ??/ They were the ones who compared the aircraft to gripen. IAF never asked for a F22, it is asking for a decent 4th gen fighter. ADA is still giving them mig++ which was our requirement in 1990 not in 2011.
> 
> As far as being practical is concerned, they should have worked on the future projects before declaring them in public (AMCA, AURA). They themselves make fool of them.
> 
> I mean do you even know AMCA might even get cancelled at this stage. Right now govt. has given them some 275 million$ to carry out feasibility report then only the project will be sanctioned.
> 
> Not to mention, if they fail to carry out the feasibility report, the project will be cancelled. How practical are they, when they declared their plan before even thinking whether they had the capability of building it or not ?/
> 
> They are not able to build a decent 4th gen fighter and they are dreaming of building a 5th gen fighter (according to some idiots 6th gen fighter) and an UCAV.


 
Thats the way things are happening in India, they claim, give timeliness bla bla, but rarely materialize. MK-2 only was compared to Gripen NG that too by IAF chief. 

And there is some instances where we made stuff secretly,. Eg- Nuclear Sub, Agni-2 etc.


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## kish

IndianArmy said:


> *LCA Tejas MK-2 Model*



multi mode radar

what about AESA ?


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## rissriva

rockstar said:


> Im happy there is no canards, also IRST can be at one of the PODs overall, I'm happy with the new design.. IAF wants F-22 from DRDO? come on be practical...


 
Still ..the agility of any craft is better than Tejas... So whats wrong if a design modification is done to achieve high agility that's very important in dog-fight.
Seriously Tejas need better design and powerful engine with thrust vectoring..


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## IndianArmy

Tejas certainly has Bettered its Angle of Attack I must say... Look at it Pull High G turns and Alpha Maneuvers 

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Day 1@ Show: Another video of Tejas with smokewinders


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## rissriva

IndianArmy said:


> Tejas certainly has Bettered its Angle of Attack I must say... Look at it Pull High G turns and Alpha Maneuvers
> 
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Day 1@ Show: Another video of Tejas with smokewinders


 
But still not satisfactory... even similar design aircraft like Gripen and Mirage3 have better agility in air having alsmost same thrust engine.


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## rockstarIN

rissriva said:


> Still ..the agility of any craft is better than Tejas... So whats wrong if a design modification is done to achieve high agility that's very important in dog-fight.
> Seriously Tejas need better design and powerful engine with thrust vectoring..


 
Pilots say it is as easy as M2K, what else you can expect? for better thrust, there is a new engine...so, most of the problems solved..


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## SR 71 Blackbird

I think this is not the finalized design, this is sure to change as mk2 is definitely going t have AESA radar & low RCS.There is a possibility of TVC too.In terms of avionics & performance it will be comparable to Gripen NG 2760882.html[/IMG]


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## IndianTiger

WebMaster said:


> You call an aircraft a failure which is supposed to be built 250 times in Pakistan and 300-500 times in China? Go do some research, and while your at it search the meaning of joint venture.
> 
> LCA is an aircraft which is denied by the air force which it was made for. There is nothing in LCA that India has made, except for solving the puzzle and putting it together successfuly, about 8 of them for the museum.
> 
> This thread will be fun.


 
sir please do some research.


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## SpArK

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> I think this is not the finalized design, this is sure to change as mk2 is definitely going t have AESA radar & low RCS.There is a possibility of TVC too.


 
TVC??? Its going to use GE 414 dude..... 

super cruise... a must..


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## SpArK

IndianTiger said:


> sir please do some research.


 
You dug up a 4 year old comment.. ?? whats wrong with u?

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## SpArK



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## sancho

santro said:


> It is truly a disappointment.. I cant even tell the two models apart...



You will in the final versions, that's just a presentation model, imo even of the MK1.

The most visible differences that were expected, were about increase of internal fuel with larger wings and integration of the new engine, with expected fuselage and air intake changes.
It seems they found a different solution for the first point, while the only surprising on the second is the same design for the air intakes, although I still think that will be changed in the final version.
A change to AESA would hardly be visible, because it would simply fitted in to the present nose, which is designed with a big size from the start.
Even the fixed refuelling probe is not a big issue here, because it reduces costs and is not such a big contributor to the RCS in operational service, with way bigger missiles, bombs and fuel tanks attached. 

The disappointing point imo are the lack of IRST (still not sure about lack of AESA), which was said to be developed by an Indian company and the same number of weapon stations, but maybe we will get more details in the coming days.


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## sancho

Here is another one:

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Day 1 at Aero India: Video of Tejas flying with smokewinders


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

Watching the Tejas @aeroshow made me realise its much better than than the _all metal cheap fighter_ .


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## SQ8

Looking to flame after reporting a potential flame thread.. are we Spark???


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## S-A-B-E-R->

SpArK said:


> Watching the Tejas @aeroshow made me realise its much better than than the _all metal cheap fighter_ .


 
really dude i dont want to start a fight bt the all metal cheap fighter have done much better than this and other videos of LCA go compair ur self .


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## SpArK

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> really dude i dont want to start a fight bt the all metal cheap fighter have done much better than this and other videos of LCA go compair ur self .


 
Oops.. how did you realise i am talking about the other fighter .. i was talking about Jaguars.. god.. i hate them...

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## S-A-B-E-R->

SpArK said:


> Oops.. how did you realise i am talking about the other fighter .. i was talking about Jaguars.. god.. i hate them...


 
sorry mate just left another thread babbling against a noob member ,thought u wer trolling too ,sorry again


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## WAQAS119

SpArK said:


> Watching the Tejas @aeroshow made me realise its much better than than the _all metal cheap fighter_ .


 
*K-8 should do!*


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## SpArK

WAQAS119 said:


> *K-8 should do!* lol


 
K-8 thread is else where.. this is a different one.. discuss it there please!


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## anathema

SpArK said:


>


 
Have to admit...this is the best Tejas show....wonderfull....IAF should slowly expand the flight envelope....Loved the take off...


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## SpArK

thanks.........


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## VelocuR

I don't know where is. So i re-post here. 

YouTube - Tejas In Aero India 2011- SpArK

Beautiiful Superb !


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## SpArK

*Light Combat Aircrafts naval variant to be ready by May​*





The first flight of the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is expected to take place by May this year.

The Naval Prototype-1 (NPT1), which was rolled out last year, is undergoing integration tests in Bangalore.

Cmde (Retd) CD Balaji, project director LCA Navy, said integration tests are on and the aircraft is currently suspended on bungee cords for undergoing a series of tests.

Following this, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA programme, is expected to start the aircraft engine for testing.

A series of ground tests followed by taxi trails will precede the first flight which is expected in May.

As part of the Aircraft Carrier Capability Testing (CCT), ADA will also have to carry trails at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) which is currently being built at the Naval Air Station in Goa.

The SBTF replicates an aircraft carrier having Restraining gear and Ski-jump for take-off. The landing area will have arresting gear and other landing aids as in an aircraft carrier. Once proved ashore, the aircraft will be cleared for trials on the carrier.

Meanwhile, as part of the Phase-2 of the LCA Navy programme, a single seat fighter (NP2) with a new higher thrust engine (GE-F141-INS6) and further design optimisation is on cards.

The NP2 structural build is at an advanced stage of completion and is due to fly a year after NP-1.

The LCAs naval variant is to be ready for carrier trials by 2013 and is slated for deployment on the INS Vikramaditya as well as the Vikrant class aircraft carrier.

Aero India 2011: Light Combat Aircrafts naval variant to be ready by May - Money - DNA


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

SpArK said:


> Watching the Tejas @aeroshow made me realise its much better than than the _all metal cheap fighter_ .


 
tell me what was better in it because even our k-8 can do better than this..................


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## GORKHALI

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> tell me what was better in it because even our k-8 can do better than this..................


 
hahaha you talkin about *K8 chinese trainer to LCA tejas *  am talkin about COMPARE* JF 17 to OUR vintage KIRAN MK2 total swdesi * ,you found zameen aasman ka farkh in aerobatics

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## GORKHALI

fmeng1230 said:


> we don't have to provide any credible link or evidence to prove that. Unlike your Indians, we just be quiet and keep low as usual. Then ,we will surprise your guys on future battlefield~ your country had lost a war due to your arrogant, and I can predict that it will happen twice for the same reason.


 you still in Dia**rs so am not gonna reply to you ,phele galti maaf


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

PANDORA said:


> hahaha you talkin about *K8 chinese trainer to LCA tejas *  am talkin about COMPARE* JF 17 to OUR vintage KIRAN MK2 total swdesi * ,you found zameen aasman ka farkh in aerobatics


 
hahahhahahaa........... so euphoric...................


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## GORKHALI

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> hahahhahahaa........... so euphoric...................


 
ha!!!! watever makes you happppppy.....


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

PANDORA said:


> ha!!!! watever makes you happppppy.....


 
wasey wasn,t it the KIRAN that fell on peoples during last air show...............


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## Storm Force

YouTube - LCA tejas@ Aero India - SpArK

that took off in 3 sexconds flat


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## GORKHALI

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> wasey wasn,t it the KIRAN that fell on peoples during last air show...............


 
aintn't K8 chinese trainer fell in egyptian desert ??????????

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## sms

Storm Force said:


> YouTube - LCA tejas@ Aero India - SpArK
> 
> that took off in 3 sexconds flat


 
Storm/ Spark .. can you load this vedio to One of chinese video sharing website like youku or tudou?
Some of the members in China (indian/ Chinese/ Pakistani) will be blessed to see this awesome machine in actions.

Cheers


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## S10

Storm Force said:


> YouTube - LCA tejas@ Aero India - SpArK
> 
> that took off in 3 sexconds flat


Pause it at 0:00, and you can see the plane was already in motion. 3 seconds from start of video is not the same as a 3 second from start to take off.


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## SpArK



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## kish

Storm Force said:


> YouTube - LCA tejas@ Aero India - SpArK
> 
> that took off in 3 sexconds flat


 

3 sec ?.. i think video started after tejas was already at good speed .

pls conferm it .. but great video thanks


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## kish

SpArK said:


>


 
structural changes can be seen easily .

but what about air inlet .. i was thinking mk2 will have major changes in them but i cant if they did something. pls put some light


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## icydemon5

you guys need to chill out!! 

Composite structure thats important for AMCA the fifth gen, incorporation of composite material is definetly a step forward for advancement,

btw look at this picture the aerial view looks nice, protracted wings looks really sharp


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## icydemon5

all check this out, that would be really sxy 

looks fake but if they incorporate the canards, think we have world class fighter looks wise


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## GORKHALI

*HOW ABOUT THIS A BIT OF PHOTOSHOPED ???? *!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

*NO CANARDS PLEASE *







THANKZ



PLZ

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## icydemon5

PANDORA said:


> *HOW ABOUT THIS A BIT OF PHOTOSHOPED ???? *!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> *NO CANARDS PLEASE *






thats why i said it looks fake but with canards and little elongation of the aircraft acording th specification they said they would extend the aircraft by a meter, which is good newssssss


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## KS

Personally for me except for the absence of IRST, this is on expected lines (though I was hoping against hope that they would some how integrate wingtip pylons, thus taking up the number of hardpoints).

And there is no use in simply adding so many capabilities to your second line of defence. Let them iron out the chinks in the Mk1 and give a well rounded product as a Mk2, a true 4 th Gen fighter, and mass produce them as a worthy replacement to the Migs.

Having done that, let DRDO/ADE/HAL concentrate their energies on the real game --- *AMCA*.

No use in spending too much money/time/energy on Mk2 , IMHO.


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## icydemon5

we can't make 25+ years go to waste, first we need to make visibly appealing by broadening the design, and changing the Air intakes making them larger can do that, as for the internal components there are top of the line stuff... 

I say we export them to smaller countries like sri lanka, ecuador, and little markets that would love these compact fighters.... we do business better than Chinese because all our components are accountable, unlike the chinese they have stolen technology... they sell that stuff countries like Russia and U.S. are get on there @$$ abou that


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## icydemon5

we can't make 25+ years go to waste, first we need to make visibly appealing by broadening the design, and changing the Air intakes making them larger can do that, as for the internal components there are top of the line stuff... 

I say we export them to smaller countries like sri lanka, ecuador, and little markets that would love these compact fighters.... we do business better than Chinese because all our components are accountable, unlike the chinese they have stolen technology... they sell that stuff countries like Russia and U.S. are get on there @$$ abou that


Karthic Sri said:


> Personally for me except for the absence of IRST, this is on expected lines (though I was hoping against hope that they would some how integrate wingtip pylons, thus taking up the number of hardpoints).
> 
> And there is no use in simply adding so many capabilities to your second line of defence. Let them iron out the chinks in the Mk1 and give a well rounded product as a Mk2, a true 4 th Gen fighter, and mass produce them as a worthy replacement to the Migs.
> 
> Having done that, let DRDO/ADE/HAL concentrate their energies on the real game --- *AMCA*.
> 
> No use in spending too much money/time/energy on Mk2 , IMHO.


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## KS

icydemon5 said:


> we can't make 25+ years go to waste, first we need to make visibly appealing by broadening the design, and changing the Air intakes making them larger can do that, as for the internal components there are top of the line stuff...



First let me start by saying this is not a 25+ year project. The funding for the project started well into the 90s.

Secondly, by any stretch of imagination, LCA are not going to the frontline fighter of the IAF. We have the MKIs, FGFA,MRCA and in the future AMCA for the job. They will be he second line of defence and IMHO no need to waste your precious funds/time/energy on such aircraft.

Instead concentrate fully on the real prize with the lessons learnt in developing Tejas - AMCA.



icydemon5 said:


> I say we export them to smaller countries like sri lanka, ecuador, and little markets that would love these compact fighters.... we do business better than Chinese because all our components are accountable, unlike the chinese they have stolen technology... they sell that stuff countries like Russia and U.S. are get on there @$$ abou that


 
With an initial production rate of 8 per annum which will be augumented to about 13 per annum , HAL has barely the capacity to satisfy our own requirements and you are talking about exports. And that too when the market is saturated with cheap yet good fighters from Russia, China etc.

And frankly no one gives a dip$hit if the fighter has some stlen technology as long as it shoots down enemy planes and is within their budget.

India has a long way to go and you cant expect your first figter to be the top of the shelf,yet economical to satisfy all your own requirements in time and export them too.

No one has managed it yet --not US,not Russia and not China. They are there where they are after decades and decades of aircraft manufacturing and refining existing fighters.


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## icydemon5

icydemon5 said:


> And frankly no one gives a dip$hit if the fighter has some stlen technology as long as it shoots down enemy planes and is within their budget.
> 
> India has a long way to go and you cant expect your first figter to be the top of the shelf,yet economical to satisfy all your own requirements in time and export them too.
> 
> No one has managed it yet --not US,not Russia and not China. They are there where they are after decades and decades of aircraft manufacturing and refining existing fighters.


 


regardless of your pessimism, how do you think India supplied Hal Dhruv's and other heli's... hey man you don't think the U.S. can sell there choppers to sri lanka or Ecuador... the reason they don't see them is because there market is too small for U.S. and Russia... China hasn't proven anything with there j-17 or j-10.... I don't think theres has been any combat proven results, licenses agreements called TOT is all it's about, the dip $hit you referred to why do you think we are going around begging for TOT we can be just like China and copy .... but our goal is export and i believe Hal Dhruv and Bramhos are succesfull products. Let HAL expand it's infrastructure, and we will incorporate and expand our export sector based on supply and demand, not an impossible task...

Mk-2 will be a solid fighter, we can't just skip ahead to AMCA, we need experience we are Acheaving that through experimenting LCA and MK-2 will feature composite material which is the same material that AMCA will be using... so slowly we build our capability, don't rule our selves out


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## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> Personally for me except for the absence of IRST, this is on expected lines (though I was hoping against hope that they would some how integrate wingtip pylons, thus taking up the number of hardpoints).
> 
> And there is no use in simply adding so many capabilities to your second line of defence. Let them iron out the chinks in the Mk1 and give a well rounded product as a Mk2, a true 4 th Gen fighter, and mass produce them as a worthy replacement to the Migs.
> 
> Having done that, let DRDO/ADE/HAL concentrate their energies on the real game --- *AMCA*.
> 
> No use in spending too much money/time/energy on Mk2 , IMHO.


 

See and that is the problem! We didn't finished the first and jump into the next anybody how really believe that we can now develop AMCA, because LCA got IOC and we have some very basic models of AMCA is simply dreaming (I mean it in general Karthic, just because I see many of such comments now) !
Lets see the facts:

- LCA still design issues
- no knowledge in stealth design
- Kaveri has not even enough power for LCA, let alone AMCA
- No AESA radar and no co-development fixed
- No own advanced avionics
- Lack of advanced testing facilities (we have to send Kaveri to Russia to test them, how do we expect to develop and test TVC for example? What about facilities to test RCS?)

Bottom line is, so far we lack in all neccesary point to for 4.5 gen features, let alone 5. gen. All these issues must be solved first, we have to understand what went wrong in the planing and development stage, let alone all the issues we will meet during the operational stage. Developing LCA alone is not everything, we have to operate and maintain it. Have to place the supply routes and even improve it, because no matter of the delays, LCA will stay in service for 3, or 4 decades as well.

Also don't forget that before AMCA, there is FGFA we need to develop and that is way more important!


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## icydemon5

sancho said:


> See and that is the problem! We didn't finished the first and jump into the next anybody how really believe that we can now develop AMCA, because LCA got IOC and we have some very basic models of AMCA is simply dreaming (I mean it in general Karthic, just because I see many of such comments now) !
> Lets see the facts:
> 
> - LCA still design issues
> - no knowledge in stealth design
> - Kaveri has not even enough power for LCA, let alone AMCA
> - No AESA radar and no co-development fixed
> - No own advanced avionics
> - Lack of advanced testing facilities (we have to send Kaveri to Russia to test them, how do we expect to develop and test TVC for example? What about facilities to test RCS?)
> 
> Bottom line is, so far we lack in all neccesary point to for 4.5 gen features, let alone 5. gen. All these issues must be solved first, we have to understand what went wrong in the planing and development stage, let alone all the issues we will meet during the operational stage. Developing LCA alone is not everything, we have to operate and maintain it. Have to place the supply routes and even improve it, because no matter of the delays, LCA will stay in service for 3, or 4 decades as well.
> 
> Also don't forget that before AMCA, there is FGFA we need to develop and that is way more important!


 
Give them the benefit of doubt, you don't think we can't borrow vital design , basic functions, and other valuable information from the T-50/FGFA project.... we hold 50% stake in the project, that being said we WILL learn some very important stealth feature when we closely work Sukhoi on developing our version!!!!! 

on top of that LCA our engineers will have a clean slate to work with, no more back tracking that they did....

hey reverse engineering IS EASYYYYYY, like the J-xx, i bet you anything asides from looks that J-xx has no 5th gen components whats so ever
our AMCA will built from ground up with the best and brightest!


----------



## sancho

icydemon5 said:


> Give them the benefit of doubt, you don't think we can't borrow vital design , basic functions, and other valuable information from the T-50/FGFA project.... we hold 50% stake in the project, that being said we WILL learn some very important stealth feature when we closely work Sukhoi on developing our version!!!!


 
First of all, we own 50%, but can contribute only 25 to 30%, exactly because of the lack of knowledge, but yes we will gain much of that project. However to gain from it, we have to be fully involved in it first and that is just happening now. How should we gain from FGFA, that is said to be ready in 2017 and at the same time integrate the knowledge into AMCA? Such an early start of AMCA says just one thing, they already see LCA MK2 as a stop gap for AMCA only and won't develop it to full potential. Bad idea imo and for the wrong reasons anyway!


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## icydemon5

sancho said:


> First of all, we own 50%, but can contribute only 25 to 30%, exactly because of the lack of knowledge, but yes we will gain much of that project. However to gain from it, we have to be fully involved in it first and that is just happening now. How should we gain from FGFA, that is said to be ready in 2017 and at the same time integrate the knowledge into AMCA? Such an early start of AMCA says just one thing, they already see LCA MK2 as a stop gap for AMCA only and won't develop it to full potential. Bad idea imo and for the wrong reasons anyway!


 
Wake up, yesterday isn't the same thing as today, today wont be the same as tommorow... our economy touched 1.5 trillion, by the end of this year we will be 1.71.... by end of 2014 or 2015 we will be a 2 trillion dollar economy... our singh has invested 1 trillion dollars in infrastrcuture ,,,, we ARE MAKING PROGERESS....
Like wise, i am sure HAL , DRDO, ADA and TATA, Mahindra, and other major roles private and non-private are taking defence seriously with expansion from MMRCA and TOT's , massive experience and funding!!!!

2 trillion dollars economy can crank out an AMCA, and BJP party will make SURE WE WILL!!!!! We will get back the black money stashed in foreign banks, be more agressive against china and pak on kashmir...
We are slowly but surely creating a power house

LONG LIVE INDIA


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## sancho

From Pandoras post:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-34.html#post1479516




> KrishG wrote:
> Spoke with Mr. Vinod Kumar, Navy Mk-2 Program director.
> 
> * *There is 5% increase in the intake in the Mk-2. I cannot remember whether he said it was increase in area or diameter. There will be no major changes in the intake shapes for the Mk-2.*
> 
> * The empty weight of Mk-1 is 6550 kg. He said he expects the Mk-2 empty weight to be
> around 125-150 kg more than that of Mk-1. That gives a figure of ~6700 kg
> 
> * AESA is NOT included in the Mk-2. He said that LRDE is working on a AESA and was optmistic that they could put it on Mk-2 as a future upgrade. He expects the Mk-2 to have the MMR during the initial batches.
> 
> * On the design optimization on Mk-2, he told me to take pictures of the Mk-1 model undercarriage and Mk-2 model's undecarriage and compare them. I'll post the picture I took.
> 
> The two bulges on the M-2 undercarriage are indeed MLG housings. He was saying something about the MLG being moved further back in Mk-2 to increase stability (This one point I can't remember properly)
> 
> * He did say that the Mk-2 would have additional fuel capacity but didn't mention the exact number of litres.
> 
> * I asked why weren't any wingtip pylons added on Mk-2 to which he said that that would require strengthening the wing structure, which has it's own set of complications, and reiterated that the focus of Mk-2 is to optimize the design.
> 
> * I thought I noticed an increase in the tail canting. I didn't ask him about this.




IF these points are true, there are several questions!

No major changes at the air intakes and just a 5% increase needed. If so how will they do it?

Secondly MK1 was reported to have issues at speed, AoA and if I remember correctly turn rates, but it already had a good TWR. So now with no major changes at MK2s airframe and just increased thrust, is that the solution for all these problems?

AESA radar, very big blow imo and if they keep counting on LRDE alone it is ridiculous, because they are one of the main reason for the delays. They had little experience with MMRs and also have now with AESAs, so how will they do it alone?

And the point that I don't understand at all is, why the he... do they need 3 to 5 years to get these few changes ready? The only real change is the fuselage, that will house the engine and air intakes, but why does it need 3 years till it can make the first flight? 
AESA co-development was aimed on 3 - 4 years, so why can't it be integrated into MK2? 

Very strange decisions and not fitting to several of the earlier official statements!


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## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> From Pandoras post:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-34.html#post1479516
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IF these points are true, there are several questions!
> 
> 1.No major changes at the air intakes and just a 5% increase needed. If so how will they do it?
> 
> 2.Secondly MK1 was reported to have issues at speed, AoA and if I remember correctly turn rates, but it already had a good TWR. So now with no major changes at MK2s airframe and just increased thrust, is that the solution for all these problems?
> 
> 3.AESA radar, very big blow imo and if they keep counting on LRDE alone it is ridiculous, because they are one of the main reason for the delays. They had little experience with MMRs and also have now with AESAs, so how will they do it alone?
> 
> 4.And the point that I don't understand at all is, why the he... do they need 3 to 5 years to get these few changes ready? The only real change is the fuselage, that will house the engine and air intakes, but why does it need 3 years till it can make the first flight?
> AESA co-development was aimed on 3 - 4 years, so why can't it be integrated into MK2?
> 
> Very strange decisions and not fitting to several of the earlier official statements!


 

Nice to see some corroboration to my Post no. 44 (here). 


1. They are going to retain the shape of the inlets while increasing the radius.

2. There will be some tweaking of the airframe for improving aerodynamic performance, I've been assured of that.

3. LRDE is now the nodal centre for AESA tech in India. Given their recent success with the AESA radars in aew and BMD programs, they have been entrusted with X band too.

Also, they will not be going alone, EADS or Elta is supposed to help.

This project will take four years and until they get some emphatic results the progress will not be declared, nor it will be integrated with the LCA program. This has been done to maintain the timelines for the LCA mk 2.

4. This question along with the IRST has been an enigma to me too. I will try to find some source who can clarify.

No chance for info on IRST, though. I was stonewalled in my attempts to get any info about it.


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## ganimi kawa

Great article by Mr. Shukla of Broadsword!

*Men and their flying machine: a day at the National Flight Test Centre with the pilots who test fly the Tejas*











The headphone crackles in his ears as Wing Commander Pranjal Singh looks out from the cockpit of his Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, codenamed LSP-3, at the sun-baked runway stretching ahead. Once again he blesses the Indian designers who built the Tejas cockpit: in the Sukhoi-30MKI that he flew before test pilot school, he would have been dripping sweat.

&#8220;Trims neutral, brakes okay, all systems go from telemetry,&#8221; says Group Captain Toffeen&#8217;s calm voice.

Toffeen and his flight test engineers in the telemetry room of the National Flight Test Centre will monitor every system in Pranjal&#8217;s aircraft right through the flight, poring over radio data transmitted from LSP-3&#8217;s vitals. No patient in intensive care is watched so closely. Any serious glitch means aborting the mission.

&#8220;Confirm, monitored,&#8221; Pranjal acknowledges.

Toffeen clears him to go: &#8220;Take off with max AB, rotation at two-four-zero.&#8221; In test pilot jargon, that means take off at full throttle (maximum afterburner), rotating the joystick to get airborne at 240 kilometres per hour.

&#8220;LSP-3, ready for take-off,&#8221; says Pranjal to Air Traffic Control, which clears every aircraft.

The ATC is prompt: &#8220;LSP-3, cleared for take-off, wind 270, ten knots.&#8221;

Pranjal guns his engine to full power and the Tejas hurtles forward, the acceleration driving him backwards into his seat. In seconds he is at 200 kmph&#8230; 220&#8230; 240&#8230; and, as he pulls the stick, LSP-3 is sweetly airborne and climbing fast. This is the moment that every fighter pilot lives for.

But Pranjal is more than a combat fighter pilot, operating within tested and certified performance limits. As a test pilot for the Tejas LCA programme, his job is to push the performance envelope of India&#8217;s new fighter, checking how it reacts as he nudges it into uncharted territory.

&#8220;Each flight is a mission into the unknown,&#8221; explains Air Commodore Rohit Varma, Project Director, Flight Testing. Rohit, a tall, greying veteran who has spent a lifetime flying the unforgiving MiG-21 fighter, explains how each test flight deliberately takes the Tejas faster, slower or higher than it has ever been before, or on a mission like firing rockets or missiles, which could shut down the fighter&#8217;s engine by sucking up all available oxygen.

Business Standard is at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) in Bangalore to spend time with the pilots who test the Tejas, India&#8217;s first attempt to build a modern &#8220;fourth-generation&#8221; fighter aircraft. Since the first fledgling Tejas lurched into the sky in 2001, they have flown it to the limits of its flight envelope, but without rashly endangering the aircraft. While there are disasters in almost every fighter development programme, the Indian MoD&#8217;s zero-risk approach would make a Tejas crash a programme-threatening disaster.

Finely honed judgement is the first hallmark of a test pilot. Chatting with these men in the briefing room, I am struck by their maturity. This is no bunch of swaggering top guns, but experienced professionals in whom brash youth has given way to an impressive calm that must prevail in a life-threatening flight emergency.








Group Captain George Thomas, built like a bull, has commanded a squadron of Su-30MKIs. Group Captain Ritu Raj Tyagi, the most experienced of the group and a former Jaguar combat commander, ran the last Mumbai marathon as a diversion from flight testing. Captain Jaideep Maolankar, who cut his teeth flying Sea Harrier fighters off naval aircraft carriers, commanded warship INS Ganga as it chased pirates off the Somali coast. Group Captain Venugopal, like Varma, has commanded a MiG-21 squadron on the Pakistani border.

Even Pranjal, the baby of the team, is by conventional standards a veteran pilot, having commanded a Sukhoi-30MKI squadron. Now learning the ropes at the NTFC, he will extensively test the first two Tejas fighters that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited delivers to the IAF this year.

The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Pranjal&#8217;s mission is to test a new smoke winder--an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help the NFTC test the Tejas&#8217; reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.

Jet streams confuse fly-by-wire fighters like the Tejas, which are kept stable by on-board computers. Swedish company Saab crashed one of their Gripen fighters during testing when it flew into one. But these NFTC pilots seem to believe that flying the Tejas into a jet stream is just another day at the office. This matter-of-fact approach to the unknown leads NASA to choose most of its astronauts from the test pilot community.

&#8220;Test flying only seems glamorous from the outside,&#8221; says Thomas, dismissing my suggestion that every young IAF fighter jockey must idolise him. &#8220;Our daily routine involves a great deal of what any fighter pilot would consider drudgery. There is plenty of daily paperwork, and loads of study across the aerospace domain.&#8221;

But the passion for flying keeps these aces motivated. &#8220;We have all finished commanding our fighter squadrons and would normally be moving on to flying a desk,&#8221; says Jaideep. &#8220;This allows us to stay in the cockpit longer, connected with the business end of combat aviation. We are a few metres away from a fighter plane at all times.&#8221;

Varma explains exactly what a test pilot does. &#8220;An operational pilot in a combat squadron does not have the luxury of criticising his aircraft. Whether he dislikes the cockpit layout, whether he finds the controls sluggish&#8230; he just does the job with whatever the nation provides him. But when he becomes a test pilot, all those years of frontline experience go into improving the aircraft for the frontline pilots.&#8221;

&#8220;The test pilot is classically the bridge between designer and field. That is his role. He needs to be able to talk the language of the pilots in the field, and translate their requirements into language that the designers can understand. He must bridge the disconnect between design and operations,&#8221; elaborates Thomas.

In western air forces, like the US Air Force, test pilots do nothing but flight testing. But while specialisation allows them to stay in close touch with test programmes, pilots become disconnected from combat flying. The IAF&#8217;s philosophy is different. &#8220;Our tactics are evolving so quickly that we feel it is better to keep moving pilots between test flying and operational squadrons. That brings the latest operational doctrines into aircraft development,&#8221; explains Thomas.

In the telemetry room, Toffeen controls Pranjal&#8217;s mission. The atmosphere is charged; hawk-eyed technicians are glued to their monitors to detect the first sign of trouble. Toffeen has done this for 21 years. &#8220;It is a really interesting job,&#8221; he laughs, relaxed and confident. &#8220;Every day is a new day.&#8221;

Pranjal&#8217;s voice booms over the speakers that broadcast all communication between pilot and flight engineer. The smoke winder has been successfully tested. Toffeen tells him to head back to base. There is no cheering or clapping; this is business as usual.

&#8220;Do you guys ever party, get drunk, let your hair down?&#8221; I ask Rohit.

&#8220;Not this week, definitely. We will be doing Tejas aerobatics twice daily and, as an article of faith, we don&#8217;t drink for 48 hours before flying.&#8221; But then the professional mask slips just a fraction and there is a gleam in the air commodore&#8217;s eyes. &#8220;But don&#8217;t go away with the impression that these guys are loners. Test pilot school parties are famous in the air force.&#8221;

Reactions: Like Like:

2


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> From Pandoras post:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-34.html#post1479516
> 
> IF these points are true, there are several questions!
> 
> No major changes at the air intakes and just a 5% increase needed. If so how will they do it?
> 
> Secondly MK1 was reported to have issues at speed, AoA and if I remember correctly turn rates, but it already had a good TWR. So now with no major changes at MK2s airframe and just increased thrust, is that the solution for all these problems?
> 
> AESA radar, very big blow imo and if they keep counting on LRDE alone it is ridiculous, because they are one of the main reason for the delays. They had little experience with MMRs and also have now with AESAs, so how will they do it alone?
> 
> And the point that I don't understand at all is, why the he... do they need 3 to 5 years to get these few changes ready? The only real change is the fuselage, that will house the engine and air intakes, but why does it need 3 years till it can make the first flight?
> AESA co-development was aimed on 3 - 4 years, so why can't it be integrated into MK2?
> 
> Very strange decisions and not fitting to several of the earlier official statements!


 
We are reducing the redundancy like unnecessary structured hardening ... but still the empty weight is expected to increase(bug goal is there to reduce the weight a tough task you know).. Secondly if you look at the design and as per BR there is going to have a good estate management(which is very important for stability) at present it is jam packed (hopefully to increase the fuel may be for internal EW)... i also believe the air frame shown in AI will not be final while there will be changes for sure... There is a aerodynamic changes incorporated (as per BR) to solve the AoA and turn rates (Not sure about the speed i guess design is not optimized for super cruising).. 

Finally AESA is not a child play let us first get expertize on AEW&CS.... we are yet to work on miniaturized version and LRDE has come out with good radars earlier and we will have to give some time to work on AESA.. they already raised RFI for industrial partner which should be finalized this year... At present none of our squad is having AESA and i doubt the Super 30 will host AESA.. and no good AESA is available in the market except the US and Israel(which has been blocked)... we have to acknowledge the reality also buddy.. 


For 3-5 yrs you are just seeing only frame .. but if you see the upgrades it is impacting in every big module.. so 3 yrs seems to be a nominal time taken...

Good thing is we are having IFR and more internal capacity which can free up the pylons for more weapon loads.. Yes we are missing IRST and AESA.. but it should come up with time..


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## kingdurgaking

ganimi kawa said:


> Nice to see some corroboration to my Post no. 44 (here).
> 
> 
> 1. They are going to retain the shape of the inlets while increasing the radius.
> 
> 2. There will be some tweaking of the airframe for improving aerodynamic performance, I've been assured of that.
> 
> 3. LRDE is now the nodal centre for AESA tech in India. Given their recent success with the AESA radars in aew and BMD programs, they have been entrusted with X band too.
> 
> Also, they will not be going alone, EADS or Elta is supposed to help.
> 
> This project will take four years and until they get some emphatic results the progress will not be declared, nor it will be integrated with the LCA program. This has been done to maintain the timelines for the LCA mk 2.
> 
> 4. This question along with the IRST has been an enigma to me too. I will try to find some source who can clarify.
> 
> No chance for info on IRST, though. I was stonewalled in my attempts to get any info about it.


 
Goes parallel with my opinion


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## SpArK

*Men and their flying machine: a day at the National Flight Test Centre with the pilots who test fly the Tejas.​*










​

The headphone crackles in his ears as Wing Commander Pranjal Singh looks out from the cockpit of his Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, codenamed LSP-3, at the sun-baked runway stretching ahead. Once again he blesses the Indian designers who built the Tejas cockpit: in the Sukhoi-30MKI that he flew before test pilot school, he would have been dripping sweat.

&#8220;Trims neutral, brakes okay, all systems go from telemetry,&#8221; says Group Captain Toffeen&#8217;s calm voice.






Toffeen and his flight test engineers in the telemetry room of the National Flight Test Centre will monitor every system in Pranjal&#8217;s aircraft right through the flight, poring over radio data transmitted from LSP-3&#8217;s vitals. No patient in intensive care is watched so closely. Any serious glitch means aborting the mission.

&#8220;Confirm, monitored,&#8221; Pranjal acknowledges.

Toffeen clears him to go: &#8220;Take off with max AB, rotation at two-four-zero.&#8221; In test pilot jargon, that means take off at full throttle (maximum afterburner), rotating the joystick to get airborne at 240 kilometres per hour.

&#8220;LSP-3, ready for take-off,&#8221; says Pranjal to Air Traffic Control, which clears every aircraft.






The ATC is prompt: &#8220;LSP-3, cleared for take-off, wind 270, ten knots.&#8221;

Pranjal guns his engine to full power and the Tejas hurtles forward, the acceleration driving him backwards into his seat. In seconds he is at 200 kmph&#8230; 220&#8230; 240&#8230; and, as he pulls the stick, LSP-3 is sweetly airborne and climbing fast. This is the moment that every fighter pilot lives for.

But Pranjal is more than a combat fighter pilot, operating within tested and certified performance limits. As a test pilot for the Tejas LCA programme, his job is to push the performance envelope of India&#8217;s new fighter, checking how it reacts as he nudges it into uncharted territory.






&#8220;Each flight is a mission into the unknown,&#8221; explains Air Commodore Rohit Varma, Project Director, Flight Testing. Rohit, a tall, greying veteran who has spent a lifetime flying the unforgiving MiG-21 fighter, explains how each test flight deliberately takes the Tejas faster, slower or higher than it has ever been before, or on a mission like firing rockets or missiles, which could shut down the fighter&#8217;s engine by sucking up all available oxygen.






Business Standard is at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) in Bangalore to spend time with the pilots who test the Tejas, India&#8217;s first attempt to build a modern &#8220;fourth-generation&#8221; fighter aircraft. Since the first fledgling Tejas lurched into the sky in 2001, they have flown it to the limits of its flight envelope, but without rashly endangering the aircraft. While there are disasters in almost every fighter development programme, the Indian MoD&#8217;s zero-risk approach would make a Tejas crash a programme-threatening disaster.


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## SpArK

contd...

Finely honed judgement is the first hallmark of a test pilot. Chatting with these men in the briefing room, I am struck by their maturity. This is no bunch of swaggering top guns, but experienced professionals in whom brash youth has given way to an impressive calm that must prevail in a life-threatening flight emergency.







Group Captain George Thomas, built like a bull, has commanded a squadron of Su-30MKIs. Group Captain Ritu Raj Tyagi, the most experienced of the group and a former Jaguar combat commander, ran the last Mumbai marathon as a diversion from flight testing. Captain Jaideep Maolankar, who cut his teeth flying Sea Harrier fighters off naval aircraft carriers, commanded warship INS Ganga as it chased pirates off the Somali coast. Group Captain Venugopal, like Varma, has commanded a MiG-21 squadron on the Pakistani border.

Even Pranjal, the baby of the team, is by conventional standards a veteran pilot, having commanded a Sukhoi-30MKI squadron. Now learning the ropes at the NTFC, he will extensively test the first two Tejas fighters that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited delivers to the IAF this year.






The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Pranjal&#8217;s mission is to test a new smoke winder--an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help the NFTC test the Tejas&#8217; reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.

Jet streams confuse fly-by-wire fighters like the Tejas, which are kept stable by on-board computers. Swedish company Saab crashed one of their Gripen fighters during testing when it flew into one. But these NFTC pilots seem to believe that flying the Tejas into a jet stream is just another day at the office. This matter-of-fact approach to the unknown leads NASA to choose most of its astronauts from the test pilot community.

&#8220;Test flying only seems glamorous from the outside,&#8221; says Thomas, dismissing my suggestion that every young IAF fighter jockey must idolise him. &#8220;Our daily routine involves a great deal of what any fighter pilot would consider drudgery. There is plenty of daily paperwork, and loads of study across the aerospace domain.&#8221;






But the passion for flying keeps these aces motivated. &#8220;We have all finished commanding our fighter squadrons and would normally be moving on to flying a desk,&#8221; says Jaideep. &#8220;This allows us to stay in the cockpit longer, connected with the business end of combat aviation. We are a few metres away from a fighter plane at all times.&#8221;

Varma explains exactly what a test pilot does. &#8220;An operational pilot in a combat squadron does not have the luxury of criticising his aircraft. Whether he dislikes the cockpit layout, whether he finds the controls sluggish&#8230; he just does the job with whatever the nation provides him. But when he becomes a test pilot, all those years of frontline experience go into improving the aircraft for the frontline pilots.&#8221;

&#8220;The test pilot is classically the bridge between designer and field. That is his role. He needs to be able to talk the language of the pilots in the field, and translate their requirements into language that the designers can understand. He must bridge the disconnect between design and operations,&#8221; elaborates Thomas.






In western air forces, like the US Air Force, test pilots do nothing but flight testing. But while specialisation allows them to stay in close touch with test programmes, pilots become disconnected from combat flying. The IAF&#8217;s philosophy is different. &#8220;Our tactics are evolving so quickly that we feel it is better to keep moving pilots between test flying and operational squadrons. That brings the latest operational doctrines into aircraft development,&#8221; explains Thomas.

In the telemetry room, Toffeen controls Pranjal&#8217;s mission. The atmosphere is charged; hawk-eyed technicians are glued to their monitors to detect the first sign of trouble. Toffeen has done this for 21 years. &#8220;It is a really interesting job,&#8221; he laughs, relaxed and confident. &#8220;Every day is a new day.&#8221;






Pranjal&#8217;s voice booms over the speakers that broadcast all communication between pilot and flight engineer. The smoke winder has been successfully tested. Toffeen tells him to head back to base. There is no cheering or clapping; this is business as usual.






&#8220;Do you guys ever party, get drunk, let your hair down?&#8221; I ask Rohit.

&#8220;Not this week, definitely. We will be doing Tejas aerobatics twice daily and, as an article of faith, we don&#8217;t drink for 48 hours before flying.&#8221; But then the professional mask slips just a fraction and there is a gleam in the air commodore&#8217;s eyes. &#8220;But don&#8217;t go away with the impression that these guys are loners. Test pilot school parties are famous in the air force.&#8221;
POSTED BY BROADSWORD


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> 4. This question along with the IRST has been an enigma to me too. I will try to find some source who can clarify.
> 
> No chance for info on IRST, though. I was stonewalled in my attempts to get any info about it.



Hi, see my point is just, that we either make a small / cost-effective upgrade to induct the fighters as soon as possible after MK1, or we try to make it as capable as possible!
But 3 to 5 years, only for the engine integration and more internal fuel is way too much, that's neither a fast upgrade and without AESA and additional weapon stations even a capable one.

Lets say engine integration + IFR probe in around 2 years only, or they for 4 to 5 years, but then make it really capable with new wings for more fuel, payload and weapons and AESA as well (IRST and SC would be nice, but not neccesarily needed).


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## rissriva

Tejas takeoff at aero india 2011


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## Water Car Engineer

*Tejas deadline likely to be postponed*



> The final operational clearance (FOC) for India&#8217;s first indigenous aircraft, LCA Tejas, is expected to come by December 2012. While the DRDO and Tejas authorities have been projecting the date, talking exclusively to The Indian Express, one of the IAF pilots involved in the development of Tejas argued that the tedious certification process and the suggestions IAF has sent to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) might postpone the deadline further. He said that there is no resource crunch, but the 20-year gap post-Marut is too wide to be bridged so fast.
> 
> &#8220;For the FOC, the aircraft has to go through a tedious certification process that involves tests for each and every component. While the list is long, some of the suggestions we have approached the HAL with include drop tank, store integration, flutter, specifications of sensors, carriage, equipment integration, and so on. In fact, we also have suggestions regarding envelope expansion &#8212; angle of attack and &#8216;g&#8217;. Given the lengthy certification process, the December 2012 deadline would be missed,&#8221; said the pilot on condition of anonymity. The pilot added, &#8220;The DRDO is projecting the December 2012 deadline just because post that deadline, it would become a 30-year project and it might not be a good tag.&#8221;



Tejas deadline likely to be postponed


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## sudhir007

French Rafale pilots Impresed by Tejas

The French kiss is legendary. Now, what about an Indo-French one? It must be a blast  Indian spiritual sense and bare French passion. Indias ace LCA pilot George Joseph and French pilots De LAir, Plu Vinjae and others shared some fantastic bonhomie at the flight operations centre at Yelahanka air base on Friday. Engaged in intense conversation, Indias LCA pilot and the French pilots exchanged notes on the LCA, Su-30, Rafale, F-18 and the art of flying.

The French pilots, fascinated by the LCA, inquired about how Indias indigenous aircraft project was coming along. While the French pilots said they were mighty impressed by the light and compact aircraft, George explained how the LCA coasted through almost 1,500 flights, tackling in its wake a whole lot of technical issues typical of any developing aircraft. The test flights have been a challenge. We went through many new developments. The software was continually upgraded and we arrived even to the fly-by-wire system. Weve just received certification, George explained to the attentive French pilots.

One of the French pilots remarked: Ive been seeing the LCA fly for the past two days. It looks a very good aircraft to me. It has good flight abilities and I get the feeling its doing well. One other pilot had just finished a good deal of research on the LCA, having gone to the aircraft and examined it closely.

Another French pilot said: Cockpit comfort will be an important factor for a pilot to say how the aircraft is. Weaponization is another. For an aircraft thats coming up, its very good. But yes, ultimately flying the aircraft will tell us how good it is.

Then the LCA pilot and his French counterparts exchanged notes on how the Su-30 operated. The French were keen to know about the Sukhoi, given that it is the mainstay of the IAF and probably the deadliest air superiority fighter in the world. All of then congratulated each other for the flight displays and signed off, hoping to meet again.

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## Water Car Engineer

> Then the LCA pilot and his French counterparts exchanged notes on how the* Su-30* operated. The French were keen to know about the *Sukhoi*, given that it is the mainstay of the IAF and *probably the deadliest air superiority fighter in the world.* All of then congratulated each other for the flight displays and signed off, hoping to meet again.




Oh come on....

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## satishkumarcsc

Liquid said:


> Oh come on....


 
Perhaps he meant what the French would be facing in the near future.


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## shrivatsa




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## sudhir007




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## GORKHALI

double post


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## GORKHALI

http://chaffandflare.blogspot.com/2011/02/technical-scaling-of-tejas-mk-2.html

*ENJOY*


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## angeldemon_007

@ Pandora, where did you got this pic from ??/ How old is it ??/

Its saying radar DRDO Aesa/Elta 2052... During Aero India it was said LCA mk2 will have multi mode radar. Also I think Israel is not selling aesa to India. Is there any change in Israel stand or previous news does not included India ?/

What is going on with DRDO's aesa ?? For years they are just thinking of having a partner, when are they going to decide about partner ??/


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## kingdurgaking

How is this possible.. no of hardpoints 9 and just only 1 added more... where is this new one w.r.t to the picture?


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## SpArK



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## GORKHALI

kingdurgaking said:


> How is this possible.. no of hardpoints 9 and just only 1 added more... where is this new one w.r.t to the picture?


 
oh!ho that just an imagination mate.. And its under the fuselage ,so you hardly see anychanges.


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## IndianArmy

PANDORA said:


> oh!ho that just an imagination mate.. And its under the fuselage ,so you hardly see anychanges.


 
LCA MK1 already has a Hard Point under the Fuselage, So There would be 2 Hard points under the fuselage for MK2???


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## sudhir007

Special: A day in the life of a Tejas test pilot - Rediff.com News

The headphone crackles in his ears as Wing Commander Pranjal Singh looks out from the cockpit of his Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, codenamed LSP-3, at the sun-baked runway stretching ahead.

Once again he blesses the Indian designers who built the Tejas cockpit: in the Sukhoi-30MKI that he flew before test pilot school, he would have been dripping sweat.

"Trims neutral, brakes okay, all systems go from telemetry," says Group Captain Toffeen's calm voice.


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## duhastmish

these time line of tejas are - too far ahead.

its an out of era fighter . seem like an 40 yr old trying to fit in high school teen's world. 

A wanna be CAT. (cool american teenager) 

a big fail.


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## GORKHALI

IndianArmy said:


> LCA MK1 already has a Hard Point under the Fuselage, So There would be 2 Hard points under the fuselage for MK2???


 
yup!kinda gripen like in parallel..


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## IndianArmy

PANDORA said:


> yup!kinda gripen like in parallel..



Well, they must try something like jaguar, Hard Points over the Wings..... Like this


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## GORKHALI

IndianArmy said:


> Well, they must try something like jaguar, Hard Points over the Wings..... Like this



not a good idea ,if we consider manuverblity and drag !! 9 hardpoints is more than enough for aircraft like tejas...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> How is this possible.. no of hardpoints 9 and just only 1 added more... where is this new one w.r.t to the picture?


 
Not possible, especially if the location of the gears won't be changed, that means it will remain at 7 + 1 stations only.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not possible, especially if the location of the gears won't be changed, that means it will remain at 7 + 1 stations only.


 
If they want to add more internal fuel and more weapons loading capacity.. that is the option they have got.. Lets hope they do that in MK2


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


>


 
When will the first prototype fly? it came out from production hanger quite long back. doing taxi trials for quite long???


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## sudhir007

Tejas - Kedar Karmarkar Photography - Specializing in Aviation Ops

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> If they want to add more internal fuel and more weapons loading capacity.. that is the option they have got.. Lets hope they do that in MK2


 
If we go by the MK2 models and specboards shown at Aero India, they lenghten the fuselage for 0.5m (interestingly the hight increases for 0.2m as well, but not sure why that happens), to integrate the new engines, as well as internal fuel tanks. The location of the gear on the other side remains the same and that is the big difference to Gripen NG and why there won't be additional station at the fuselage. I hoped for additional wingstations, at least at the wingtips, but people attended Aero India stated, that this would require more work to strenghten the wing (however, imo it would be worth it).

Based on older infos and latest specs from Aero India, I would expect LCA MK1 to have the following specs:

*Empty weight:* 6560Kg 
*Internal fuel:* 2485Kg
*Thrust:* 55.36kN Dry / 85kN AB (GE 404 - 20IN)
*TWR:* 0.97
*Wingloading: * 236 Kg/m2
*AoA:* 22° at IOC (24° planned for FOC)
*MTOW:* 13500Kg
*Payload:* 3500Kg (reduced by 500Kg, because of 1000Kg overweight)
*Stations:* 7 + 1 (pods)


*Normal A2A configs:* 

- 1 x 1200l fuel tank
- 2 x SR AAMs
- 4 x MR AAMs


*Normal A2G configs:* 

- 1 x LDP
- 2 x 1200l fuel tanks
- 2 x 1000lb LGBs
- 2 x SR AAMs


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> When will the first prototype fly? it came out from production hanger quite long back. doing taxi trials for quite long???


 
Like the article says 2015, because it is based on MK2, that means that the N-LCA airframe that rolled out yet, will get similar changes like the IAF MK2 first.


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## farhan_9909

PANDORA said:


> MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: TECHNICAL SCALING OF TEJAS MK 2
> 
> *ENJOY*


 
I think with the 107Kn its payload will increase to atleast 5ton..direct jump from 85Kn to 107 means 23Kn thrust increase.so 5ton payload is expected

this will make it a damn good machine

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## SpArK




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## SpArK

Another thread derailed.. waiting for mods to come and delete the posts as usual.. *yawn*


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## tallboy123

*I love this a lot....*






Guys can anybody tell me,at a time,how much (A2A+A2G)missile can Tejas carry.........4?


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## Dash

So looks like we didnt get much in LCA MK2, But I am sure these designs will change. And there is enough time in hand of ADA to do the design change.


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## tallboy123

Dash said:


> So looks like we didnt get much in LCA MK2, But I am sure these designs will change. And there is enough time in hand of ADA to do the design change.


I think ADA doesn't want to commit,
they didn't mention AESA....

If AESA programmed gets successful then it will be integrated..

Better not commit so early...


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## GORKHALI




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## GORKHALI




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## GORKHALI




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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> If we go by the MK2 models and specboards shown at Aero India, they lenghten the fuselage for 0.5m (interestingly the hight increases for 0.2m as well, but not sure why that happens), to integrate the new engines, as well as internal fuel tanks. The location of the gear on the other side remains the same and that is the big difference to Gripen NG and why there won't be additional station at the fuselage. I hoped for additional wingstations, at least at the wingtips, but people attended Aero India stated, that this would require more work to strenghten the wing (however, imo it would be worth it).


 But what we can do.?. the wings of Tejas is placed so high compared to others... But this design is more suited for indian environment especially the wide nature of our environment.... Secondly if we put the huge Gear on wings.. we will have additional penalty on structural desing as well as weight... so it seems the only way to increase fuel is increase by 0.5 m and proper estatemanagement... so i guess there is an increase in 0.2m in height also..



> Based on older infos and latest specs from Aero India, I would expect LCA MK1 to have the following specs:
> 
> *Empty weight:* 6560Kg
> *Internal fuel:* 2485Kg
> *MTOW:* 13000Kg (reduced by 500Kg, because of 1000Kg overweight)
> *Payload:* 3500Kg (reduced by 500Kg, because of 1000Kg overweight)


 
Logically MTOW is supposed to be empty + internal fuel + useful payload right?? so what do you mean by reduced by 500 kg?


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## Skull and Bones

kingdurgaking said:


> Logically MTOW is supposed to be empty + internal fuel + useful payload right?? so what do you mean by reduced by 500 kg?


 
Empty weight has been reduced, coz' reducing payload is illogical.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Logically MTOW is supposed to be empty + internal fuel + useful payload right?? so what do you mean by reduced by 500 kg?


 
True, thought they had to reduce the MTOW too, to counter the overweight, but payload was often given with 4000Kg before and seems to be reduced now. However, that once again shows the potential of LCA and we could easily bring on to a similar payload and MTOW level like Gripen NG has, I hope they will stay focused on it.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> So looks like we didnt get much in LCA MK2, But I am sure these designs will change. And there is enough time in hand of ADA to do the design change.


 
Hi Dash, didn't see you for quiet some time. Yes, they seems to change less than expected, or possible, but still needs much time and the design will mainly remain the same, just some fuselage changes. Still hope for the addition of AESA and 2 weapon stations, besides increased payload and it would be a great fighter!


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## tallboy123

Guys check this out


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## rockstarIN

tallboy123 said:


> Guys check this out


 
Whats is the stuff seen at the back side of the air craft? air brakes?


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## brahmastra

^^ yes. those are air brakes.


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## SpArK

It gets pretty loud..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> True, thought they had to reduce the MTOW too, to counter the overweight, but payload was often given with 4000Kg before and seems to be reduced now. However, that once again shows the potential of LCA and we could easily bring on to a similar payload and MTOW level like Gripen NG has, I hope they will stay focused on it.


 
I guess my question is misunderstood... 

Let me discuss MTOW with my knowledge and will stand corrected if its not right...

I am of a opinion for a given engine trust MTOW is fixed right? if the aircraft becoming over weight seems to be out of question.. if MTOW of Tejas is 13000 kg.. it will be same even if it is overweight by 2000 kg..


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## sudhir007

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb 2011 .pdf

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## kingdurgaking

one of the best shot of Tejas






Credit goes to the author

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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## kingdurgaking

^^^^ seems a small research center already in place for stealth... should be very useful for AMCA


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## Black Widow

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^^ seems a small research center already in place for stealth... should be very useful for AMCA


 
Agree with you, These machines have several small components, Its needed to be expertise in these small things...

I recall one thing... Israel spent 7.5 billion USD on LAVI, though they were not able to induct Lavi, but the expertise gain on avionics, weapon, design fetch them hell lot of money... Experience gain in LCA will be definitely used for AMCA...


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## IndianArmy

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^^ seems a small research center already in place for stealth... should be very useful for AMCA


 
6 DRDO laboratories are already working on Stealth


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## kingdurgaking

IndianArmy said:


> 6 DRDO laboratories are already working on Stealth


 
Seems ADA is more serious this time... as they are aware that as time goes they will be more transparent and subject to more public scanner... Govt should also equally pay them...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I guess my question is misunderstood...
> 
> Let me discuss MTOW with my knowledge and will stand corrected if its not right...
> 
> I am of a opinion for a given engine trust MTOW is fixed right? if the aircraft becoming over weight seems to be out of question.. if MTOW of Tejas is 13000 kg.. it will be same even if it is overweight by 2000 kg..




As you said before, it is te maximum weight the fighter can have to take off, which includes the empty and fuel weight and the total payload (including pilot, stores...):

Maximum Takeoff Weight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It seems my estimation was right that the MTOW has to be reduced as well, but only about 200Kg. However, there is still a gap of over 700Kg to reach the MTOW, which means there is some reserve upwards, be it for additional parts (refuelling probe, AESA), or external payloads.


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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> Seems ADA is more serious this time... as they are aware that as time goes they will be more transparent and subject to more public scanner... Govt should also equally pay them...


 
They were always serious, now the point is we have 'monies' to allocate them for this..!!


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## anniyan

Awesome video of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2011

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## sudhir007

Indian Air Force Set To Form Tejas Squadron | AVIATION WEEK

The Indian air force (IAF) has begun preparations to form the first Tejas Light Combat Aircraft squadron here.

The No. 45 Sqdn. will be known as the Flying Daggers (the same as MiG-21/MiG-21BIS squadron).

Air Cmdr. B.R. Krishna, chief test pilot at the Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), tells Aviation Week that ASTE has identified two pilots to fly the Tejas as part of the IAFs user evaluation, following the initial operational clearance (IOC) granted on Jan. 10.

The squadron will be first raised in Bengaluru before moving to Sulur in Coimbatore (in Tamil Nadu, a South Indian state).

The limited series production aircraft LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be used for the evaluation. ASTE hopes to receive the aircraft in the next 3-4 months. Lot of inputs from the pilots have gone into the Tejas program, especially in the area of cockpit design, Krishna says. The cockpit of LSP-5, the last platform that entered the flight line, is the final production mode. Test pilots from ASTE, too, gave their inputs.

Military sources confirm that ASTE test pilot Wing Cmdr. Paranjal Singh and flight-test engineer Wing Cmdr. Manish Kumar have been chosen to perform the user evaluation. The two pilots will also work with the Tejas simulator at the Aeronautical Development Establishment, as well as with various teams from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

With the IAF readying to form the squadron, the onus now shifts to ADA and HAL to proceed from IOC to the final operational clearance phase.

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## trident2010

Good read about development of technologies for Tejas !!


http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb 2011 .pdf


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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007

*Broadsword: Broadsword brings you...the Tejas naval twin-seater!
*

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## tallboy123

^^Naval LCA has long landing gear...

By the way,why this foolish HAL is not making it fast ...Just one guys is working with LCA naval...
And when will be the first flight of Naval LCA ...any idea guys?


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## farhan_9909

anniyan said:


> Awesome video of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2011


 
plzz tell me what does awesome seem in this video to you?

why only loops and rolling?

why nt a full 360 turn?


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## tallboy123

*Guys how many missiles(A2A+A2G,etc,etc..) can Tejas carry...?*


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## trident2010

tallboy123 said:


> Just one guys is working with LCA naval...


 
I can count four guys working on it. Look at fourth picture.


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## Dash

tallboy123 said:


> ^^Naval LCA has long landing gear...
> 
> By the way,why this foolish HAL is not making it fast ...Just one guys is working with LCA naval...
> And when will be the first flight of Naval LCA ...any idea guys?


 
Actually naval LCA doesnt need any attention. Its always going to be a paper plane/experimental and hardly see the light of day being operated by ACs. I would rather ask ADA to concentrate more on LCA Mk2 and then AMCA to move it forward as soon as possible.


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## sancho

tallboy123 said:


> ^^Naval LCA has long landing gear...
> 
> By the way,why this foolish HAL is not making it fast ...Just one guys is working with LCA naval...
> And when will be the first flight of Naval LCA ...any idea guys?


 
Because that is only one of the first prototypes, the final version will be based on MK2 and those changes are not cleared yet. LCA MK2 (IAF) is planned to fly in 2014, N-LCA one year later.




tallboy123 said:


> *Guys how many missiles(A2A+A2G,etc,etc..) can Tejas carry...?*



Depends on mission config and how many fuel tanks are needed. As I said in an earlier post, normal A2A config should be:

- 1 x centerline fuel tank
- 4 x BVR missiles (R77 / Astra)
- 2 x WVR missiles (R73 / Python V?)


In A2G it also depends on the load, like the pic Sudhir posted 2 x WVR missiles, with lighter LGBs, or a single fuel tank, 2 x BVR, 2 x WVR missiles. 




farhan_9909 said:


> plzz tell me what does awesome seem in this video to you?
> 
> why only loops and rolling?
> 
> why nt a full 360 turn?


 

Please stop these debates based on Youtube videos, that's not leading anywhere and will start only useless discussions!

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## kingdurgaking

farhan_9909 said:


> plzz tell me what does awesome seem in this video to you?
> why only loops and rolling?
> why nt a full 360 turn?


 
Tejas doesnt need to run showing its back.. it has sufficient EW capabilities to defeat incoming missiles ... so i guess HAL is not concentrating on the 360' turn


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Actually naval LCA doesnt need any attention. Its always going to be a paper plane/experimental and hardly see the light of day being operated by ACs. I would rather ask ADA to concentrate more on LCA Mk2 and then AMCA to move it forward as soon as possible.


 
Hi Dash, I think the same, to concentrate on improving MK2. I don't see that N-LCA will be useful as a carrier fighter, especially when we look at payload and weapon stations. If we take Saabs statements to account, that the Sea Gripen will have 1/3rd less payload when operated from STOBAR carriers, it leaves N-LCA with a very poor load capability.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Hi Dash, I think the same, to concentrate on improving MK2. I don't see that N-LCA will be useful as a carrier fighter, especially when we look at payload and weapon stations. If we take Saabs statements to account, that the Sea Gripen will have 1/3rd less payload when operated from STOBAR carriers, it leaves N-LCA with a very poor load capability.


 
In all possible scenarios you need a twin engine fighter to carrier borne operations. Especialluy when your main role is strike. Gripen,LCA and like sized fighters will not be able to carry that much payload, when specially fitted with ground attack mode. 

The naval LCA is an experimental aircraft at best.


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## tallboy123

anniyan said:


> Awesome video of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2011



GUys i think in this video from 1:54 - 2:20 its 360 degree turn

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## sudhir007

tallboy123 said:


> *Guys how many missiles(A2A+A2G,etc,etc..) can Tejas carry...?*


 
for a2a Im go with *sancho* configuration 
and for a2g
1 x centerline fuel tan
2x WVR/BVR missiles (R-73, Derby, Astra )
2x LGB (Sudarshan)
2x CBU 105
Deadly combination


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## GORKHALI



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## angeldemon_007

> In all possible scenarios you need a twin engine fighter to carrier borne operations. Especialluy when your main role is strike.


I think Rafale is the best bet for our AC. F18 is bigger for our smaller AC. Rest don't have any experience, not to mention naval eurofighter and sea gripen is not ready.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> for a2a Im go with *sancho* configuration
> and for a2g
> 1 x centerline fuel tan
> 2x WVR/BVR missiles (R-73, Derby, Astra )
> 2x LGB (Sudarshan)
> 2x CBU 105
> Deadly combination



LDP is missing and I don't think this combo will have a useful range, at least not at MK1. Also the wingtips can carry only WVR missiles, BVR are too heavy. Hope they will integrate Helina for CAS roles as well!


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## Storm Force

cant wait for mk2 tio come


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## mindsuck

Will the LCA tejas have a better improvement in the next version because it is quite not count as a good aircraft in the 4th gen category.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

LCA tejas is a 4th gen fighter that falls in the light fighter category. Dont expect it to perform equivalent to SU30. Its performance is still restricted to 6g by its FCS. In the coming months, new software upgrades will be done for higher AOA and G performance by opening up the envelope through testing (e.g. Spin tests). LCA MK2 will be more capable with its higher thrust engines(better STR), more fuel (longer range), Hiher T/W ratio. So sit back and enjoy the show.

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## sudhir007

Livefist: Derby For Tejas A Kosher Deal?

The Indian Tejas light combat aircraft programme's decision to arm the platform with Israeli Derby air-to-air missiles has already raised questions, both from rival missile makers (who have an interest, obviously, since the decision means lost potential business) as well as officials in government. To begin with, a question hangs over whether the selection of the Derby was based on a competitive bid process (sources say it wasn't) by the Aeronautical Development Agency. Second, the rather adverse observations that India's national audit watchdog made last year on Rafael's supply of the same missile to the Indian Navy for its Sea Harrier limited upgrade package. One person I spoke to in the IAF wondered how such a deal could go through when the operational capabilities of the weapon had been specifically called into question.






In the shadowy world of India's weapon acquisitions, defence deals with Israel are particularly secretive (and uniformly government-to-government). And despite the Israeli MoD's efforts during Aero India this time to "open up", involve and brief the press, I hear it turned out to be a thumpingly boring affair, with no questions entertained on specific deals, and just lots of Powerpoint on products. Pity.


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## sudhir007

When a sword arm is worth it
*
Myth and reality in the cost of Tejas, the IAF and Navy&#8217;s under-development fighter.*

The spotlight is swinging on to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). It has been cleared for induction into the Indian Air Force, construction has begun on two squadrons (40 aircraft) and the IAF is picking 40 per cent of the tab for developing a more powerful Tejas Mark II. Now its designers are hitting out at critics who charge the programme has greatly overshot its budget.

P S Subramanyam, head of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which spearheads the Tejas programme, has given Business Standard detailed financial figures to argue the development cost has remained within budget. ADA also notes the Tejas is significantly cheaper than any comparable fighter.

*&#8216;No overshoot&#8217;*
Slamming some recent media reports that the Tejas was enormously over budget, Subramanyam reveals just Rs 6,051 crore has been spent so far on the fighter, that performed aerobatics at the Aero India show in Bangalore this month. Another Rs 746 crore (of the sanctioned Rs 3,650 crore) has been spent on the naval Tejas, which will fly from the Indian Navy&#8217;s future aircraft carriers.

ADA has provided a detailed cost breakdown. The LCA project began in 1983 (the name Tejas only came later), with a preliminary allocation of Rs 560 crore for &#8216;feasibility studies and project definition&#8217;. Subramanyam complains that accusations of cost overruns stem from the misperception that Rs 560 crore was the entire budget for developing the Tejas. In fact, this was merely for defining the project and creating the infrastructure needed for designing, building, testing and certifying a fighter.

Only after a decade of infrastructure building did the design work start, when the ministry of defence (MoD) sanctioned Rs 2,188 crore in 1993 (which included the initial Rs 560 crore). This allocation was to fund the building of two &#8216;technology demonstrator&#8217; Tejas fighters.

&#8220;Within this budget, we flew the Tejas in 2001, and even built two extra Tejas prototypes,&#8221; says Subramanyam. &#8220;And, that was without any adjustment for inflation or foreign exchange appreciation, though the dollar shot up from Rs 26 to Rs 47 during that period. Our forex component of Rs 873 crore should have been adjusted to Rs 1,642 crore.&#8221;

Buoyed by the successful test flight in 2001, the MoD allocated ADA Rs 3,302 crore in November 2001, for Phase-II of the programme. This was to fund a production line and the building and flight-testing of 8 &#8216;limited series production&#8217; fighters. Phase-II will run till 2012, when the Tejas obtains final operational clearance (FOC) for induction into the IAF as a frontline fighter.

In 2009, with the Tejas flight-testing running slow, ADA obtained an additional Rs 2,475 crore from the government for Phase-II. Subramanyam argues this is not a cost overrun. &#8220;The MoD&#8217;s allocation of 2001 contained no protection from inflation. If you roll back our annual expenditure to the base year of 2001, we remained within budget,&#8221; says the ADA chief.

The IAF is now confident that its Tejas Mk-I will obtain FOC in 2012, within the sanctioned Rs 7,965 crore (Rs 2,188 + Rs 3,302 + Rs 2,475) crore. What remains is to integrate a long-range missile; to enable mid-air refuelling; and to enable the Tejas to fly as slow as 200 kmph.

*What we got*
Subramanyam argues that this money has not just developed the Tejas, but also India&#8217;s ability to build serious fighters. &#8220;Consider the aerospace infrastructure that we have built across the country, in key DRDO laboratories, defence PSUs, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC). This has bridged a technology and infrastructure gap of two-three generations,&#8221; he says.

*Meanwhile, the naval Tejas will fly within weeks.* Significantly different from the IAF version, the naval Tejas must get airborne within 195 metres (the length of an aircraft carrier deck) and withstand the cruel impact of repeated deck landings, in which it must be slammed down precisely where the deck begins. Of the Rs 1,729 crore allocated for the naval Tejas, ADA has spent Rs 746 crore so far.

Encouraged by the success of Tejas Mk-I, the MoD allocated Rs 2,432 crore in 2009 for making the IAF&#8217;s fighter even better: developing a Tejas Mk-II, with a newer, beefier, GE-414 engine. Simultaneously, Rs 1,921 crore was sanctioned for the Naval Tejas Mk-II. While the Navy funded 40 per cent of its fighter from the start, the IAF is a new convert, matching the Navy in funding the Tejas Mk-II.

*&#8220;By 2012, the total development cost for an IAF and a naval Tejas &#8212; including a single-seat fighter and a twin-seat trainer variant for each &#8212; will be Rs 9,690 crore. Another Rs 4,353 crore will be spent on the Tejas Mark-II, bringing the total cost to Rs 14,047 crore,&#8221; says Subramanyam.*

*The Gripen, a comparable if somewhat more advanced fighter, which Sweden developed during this period, cost US $13.5 billion for 204 fighters, assuming complete tax exemption. A similar number of Tejas fighters entering IAF and Navy service would &#8212; provided that HAL holds the Tejas manufacturing price at its current estimate of Rs 180 crore per fighter &#8212; have cost India US $11.28 billion.*

*Given that Sweden entered the Gripen programme with a mature aerospace industry (coming off the successful Viggen programme), India will have built the Tejas, as also an entire aerospace design and manufacturing eco-system, for 17 per cent less money than Sweden paid for the Gripen.*

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## IndianTiger

Myth and reality in the cost of Tejas, the IAF and
Navy s under-development fighter.
The spotlight is swinging on to the Tejas Light
Combat Aircraft (LCA). It has been cleared for
induction into the Indian Air Force, construction has
begun on two squadrons (40 aircraft) and the IAF is
picking 40 per cent of the tab for developing a
more powerful Tejas Mark II. Now its designers
are hitting out at critics who charge the
programme has greatly overshot its budget.
P S Subramanyam, head of the Aeronautical
Development Agency (ADA), which spearheads
the Tejas programme, has given Business Standard
detailed financial figures to argue the development
cost has remained within budget. ADA also notes
the Tejas is significantly cheaper than any
comparable fighter.
No overshoot
Slamming some recent media reports that the Tejas
was enormously over budget, Subramanyam
reveals just Rs 6,051 crore has been spent so far on
the fighter, that performed aerobatics at the Aero
India show in Bangalore this month. Another Rs
746 crore (of the sanctioned Rs 3,650 crore) has
been spent on the naval Tejas, which will fly from
the Indian Navy s future aircraft carriers.
ADA has provided a detailed cost breakdown. The
LCA project began in 1983 (the name Tejas only
came later), with a preliminary allocation of Rs 560
crore for feasibility studies and project definition.
Subramanyam complains that accusations of cost
overruns stem from the misperception that Rs 560
crore was the entire budget for developing the
Tejas. In fact, this was merely for defining the
project and creating the infrastructure needed for
designing, building, testing and certifying a fighter.
Only after a decade of infrastructure building did
the design work start, when the ministry of
defence (MoD) sanctioned Rs 2,188 crore in 1993
(which included the initial Rs 560 crore). This
allocation was to fund the building of two
 technology demonstrator Tejas fighters.
Within this budget, we flew the Tejas in 2001, and
even built two extra Tejas prototypes, says
Subramanyam. And, that was without any
adjustment for inflation or foreign exchange
appreciation, though the dollar shot up from Rs 26
to Rs 47 during that period. Our forex component
of Rs 873 crore should have been adjusted to Rs
1,642 crore. 
Buoyed by the successful test flight in 2001, the
MoD allocated ADA Rs 3,302 crore in November
2001, for Phase-II of the programme. This was to
fund a production line and the building and flight-
testing of 8 limited series production fighters.
Phase-II will run till 2012, when the Tejas obtains
final operational clearance (FOC) for induction into
the IAF as a frontline fighter.
In 2009, with the Tejas flight-testing running slow,
ADA obtained an additional Rs 2,475 crore from the
government for Phase-II. Subramanyam argues
this is not a cost overrun. The MoDs allocation of
2001 contained no protection from inflation. If you
roll back our annual expenditure to the base year of
2001, we remained within budget,  says the ADA
chief.
The IAF is now confident that its Tejas Mk-I will
obtain FOC in 2012, within the sanctioned Rs 7,965
crore (Rs 2,188 + Rs 3,302 + Rs 2,475) crore. What
remains is to integrate a long-range missile; to
enable mid-air refuelling; and to enable the Tejas to
fly as slow as 200 kmph.
What we got
Subramanyam argues that this money has not just
developed the Tejas, but also India s ability to build
serious fighters. Consider the aerospace
infrastructure that we have built across the
country, in key DRDO laboratories, defence PSUs,
private industry, academic institutions, and test
facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre
(NFTC). This has bridged a technology and
infrastructure gap of two-three generations,  he
says.
WHAT THE MoD WILL PAY
Development Date of
sanction
Sanctioned
cost Spent till
Jan 25, 11
1. Air Force
(a) Phase-1 (Tejas prototype) Jun 23, 93 2,188* 2,188
(b) Phase-2 (Tejas Mark I) Nov 20,
01 5,777** 3,859
Sub-total (a & b) 7,965 6,047
(c)Phase-3 (Tejas Mark II) Nov 20,
09 2,432 4
Sub-total (a, b & c) 10,397 6,051
2. Navy
(a) Pre-project design Jan 20, 99 14 14
(b) Phase-1 (Tejas Mark I) Mar 28, 03 1,715*** 732
Sub-total (a & b) 1,729 746
(c) Phase-2 (Tejas Mark 2) Dec 17, 09 1,921 Nil
Total (a, b & c) 3,650 746
Grand Total (1 & 2) 14,047 6,797
* Includes Rs 560 crore sanctioned on Aug 22, 1983
** Rs 3,302 crore + Rs 2,475 crore on Jan 20, 2001,
and Nov 20, 2009, respectively
*** Rs 949 crore + Rs 766 crore on Mar 28, 2003,
and Dec 17, 2009, respectively
Figures in Rs crore
Meanwhile, the naval Tejas will fly within weeks.
Significantly different from the IAF version, the
naval Tejas must get airborne within 195 metres
(the length of an aircraft carrier deck) and
withstand the cruel impact of repeated deck
landings, in which it must be slammed down
precisely where the deck begins. Of the Rs 1,729
crore allocated for the naval Tejas, ADA has spent
Rs 746 crore so far.
Encouraged by the success of Tejas Mk-I, the MoD
allocated Rs 2,432 crore in 2009 for making the
IAF s fighter even better: developing a Tejas Mk-
II, with a newer, beefier, GE-414 engine.
Simultaneously, Rs 1,921 crore was sanctioned for
the Naval Tejas Mk-II. While the Navy funded 40
per cent of its fighter from the start, the IAF is a
new convert, matching the Navy in funding the
Tejas Mk-II.
By 2012, the total development cost for an IAF
and a naval Tejas  including a single-seat fighter
and a twin-seat trainer variant for each  will be
Rs 9,690 crore. Another Rs 4,353 crore will be
spent on the Tejas Mark-II, bringing the total cost
to Rs 14,047 crore,  says Subramanyam.
The Gripen, a comparable if somewhat more
advanced fighter, which Sweden developed during
this period, cost US $13.5 billion for 204 fighters,
assuming complete tax exemption. A similar
number of Tejas fighters entering IAF and Navy
service would  provided that HAL holds the
Tejas manufacturing price at its current estimate of
Rs 180 crore per fighter  have cost India US
$11.28 billion.
Given that Sweden entered the Gripen programme
with a mature aerospace industry (coming off the
successful Viggen programme), India will have built
the Tejas, as also an entire aerospace design and
manufacturing eco-system, for 17 per cent less
money than Sweden paid for the Gripen.

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## Ajax

For the first time i saw LCA Tejas flying over Chennai today. i was stunned looking at 4 Tejas roaring in the sky back to back. Sad thing is could not capture in my camera since i never expected them. Any reason why they were here at Chennai ?


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## Whiplash

Ajax said:


> For the first time i saw LCA Tejas flying over Chennai today. i was stunned looking at 4 Tejas roaring in the sky back to back. Sad thing is could not capture in my camera since i never expected them. Any reason why they were here at Chennai ?


 
Wow really? Lucky dude! btw, if they were at an altitude how do you know they weren't mirages?


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## Ajax

Whiplash said:


> Wow really? Lucky dude! btw, if they were at an altitude how do you know they weren't mirages?


 
I believe Mirages are in the process of being upgraded to MK2, so 4 mirages at a time have less chances. However i could differentiate the airframe of the Lca and Mirage,since it was not flown at an high altitude.


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## IndianArmy

Ajax said:


> I believe Mirages are in the process of being upgraded to MK2, so 4 mirages at a time have less chances. However i could differentiate the airframe of the Lca and Mirage,since it was not flown at an high altitude.


 
There is No reason for the LCA to Fly over chennai. the first squadron will be opened in bangalore before shifting it to sulur .... And As the test Pilots are Not Allowed to Leave the Area of Surveillance, the only possibility left for it to fly over chennai is, the IAF pilots from either Avadi or Tambaram are testing the IOC declared LSP


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## satishkumarcsc

Whiplash said:


> Wow really? Lucky dude! btw, if they were at an altitude how do you know they weren't mirages?


 
Mirages arent stationed anywhere near Chennai. Tejas might have been at the CVRDE for tweaking of the gearbox and performance evaluation. But Why here is what I dont get.


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## bhagat

*Tejas set to add teeth to IAF*


India&#8217;s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas&#8217; will be inducted into the Indian Air Force within the next few months, scientist Gantayat Gauda said on Sunday. Gauda, who is from the Centre for Military Airworthiness, Bangaluru, was speaking on Growth of Aeronautics in India at the annual function of Institute of Higher Secondary Education, the Plus-II science college under the Siksha O Anusandhan University here.

&#8220;The multi-role, single-seater, tactical aircraft is aimed to replace the ageing MiG-21 aircraft which have been the IAF&#8216;s mainstay since the 1970s. Tejas has been developed indigenously except the engine which has been procured from General Electric,&#8221; Gauda said. He added the full operational clearance for the LCA is expected to be given by June 2011.

Gauda also pointed out its advanced version will be ready by 2015. &#8220;Scientists at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bengaluru are presently working on the indigenous Kaveri engine for the LCA. The first LCA flight with this engine is expected to take off in the next two years,&#8221; Gouda added.

Gauda also informed the IAF had already placed orders for 40 LCA Tejas, and 83 more aircraft would be manufactured subsequently. &#8220;Five LCA Tejas aircraft, to be manufactured under limited series production, has already rolled out. This will be followed by series production to meet the requirement. One of its variants would also be rolled out for the Indian Navy but with a different name,&#8221; he said.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is the principal partner in the design and fabrication of LCA and its integration leading to flight testing. The LCA has been designed and developed by a consortium of five aircraft research, design, production and product support organizations pooled by the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the DRDO, Gauda mentioned.

He also informed the students about the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) and the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) that Indian scientists are developing.

&#8220;The helicopter, which could be useful in tackling insurgency, was flown on March 31 last but some more flight trials were necessary. The Indian Army had already placed orders for 180 such choppers. The Army had also ordered 125 IJTs, which are twin-seater, trainer aircraft,&#8221; Gauda said.

Gauda clarified that the technical snags leading to frequent mishaps involving the single-engine MiG-21s have been identified and corrected. Among others, the university dean (post-graduate studies and research), S C Mishra, managing committee member Gopabandhu Kar and R N Choudhury were present on the occasion.

Tejas set to add teeth to IAF


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## Water Car Engineer

*informative*

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## sudhir007

self delete


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## SpArK

*Kaveri Update In Parliament​*





India's Kaveri turbofan engine programme came up in Parliament today. 

Here's what the House was told: "It is proposed to develop production version Kaveri (K10) engine on co-design & co-development basis with M/s Snecma, France. The technical evaluation for this proposal has been completed. Tender Purchase Committee (TPC) with members from DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Indian Air Force (IAF), Indian Navy (IN) and Integrated Finance (R&D) is negotiating the commercial aspects."

Livefist: Kaveri Update In Parliament


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## GORKHALI



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## sancho

Ajax said:


> I believe Mirages are in the process of being upgraded to MK2, so 4 mirages at a time have less chances. However i could differentiate the airframe of the Lca and Mirage,since it was not flown at an high altitude.


 
Hi Ajax, like satishkumarcsc correctly said, the Mirage 2000s are stationed in the north so they are out of question. LCAs could be possible, but here is another possibility:



> *Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport*
> 
> TNN, Feb 23, 2011, 12.55am IST
> 
> 
> CHENNAI: Six fighter jets and two transport aircraft made a halt at Chennai airport since Sunday night. The aircraft left on Tuesday noon. The purpose of their visit is not known.
> 
> "The planes came from Ahmedabad and has left for Andaman and Nicobar Islands," said a senior Airports Authority of India ( AAI) official. "We learnt that the jets came in a formation and left to either the Andamans or Sri Lanka. The fighter jets were parked on the unused secondary runway that is closed for expansion works."...



Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport - The Times of India


I'm not saying those are the fighters that you saw, but these were in that area at the time as well and look similar too.
In addition to the article, those Gripens made a stop in Chennai to refuel and were meant for the Thai air force:

Pilots itching to fly latest Gripens, seen as a new force in the region


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## GORKHALI

*LCA (Tejas), JF-17 Thunder turn rate, roll rate and loop comparison ,HOW TRUE ??? *..........

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## Roby

*Tejas naval twin-seater! * 

















Courtsey : Ajai Shukla

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## Roby



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## arihant

Roby said:


>


 
Check this image. Isn't that joogad, they are using electrical strip (woonden made). Not sure what they are cooking up. We need to raise our production standard. USA official called HAL in compete in this.


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## shaktiman2010

arihant said:


> Check this image. Isn't that joogad, they are using electrical strip (woonden made). Not sure what they are cooking up. We need to raise our production standard. USA official called HAL in compete in this.



So is that embarrassing because USA official called names to HAL?

If USA official are professionals(which I doubt), then they won't call other names in such unprofessional manner. If they don't want partnership, they can refuse but calling names shows that they are "worried".

In fact, restlessness of American officials and calling HAL names only shows that HAL is on right track and AMCA will cause more pain in US administration.

I am sure in coming days, USA will throw open joint R&D on AMCA on full scale. It won't be in US interest if India develops herself independently(of USA). And, if India plays this *"carefully"*, we can have the cake and eat it too.


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## shaktiman2010

I guess US officials are in pain particularly because despite American pressure, Russia is helping India validate and mature its aero-engine technologies(providing High-altitude test facilities(which Kaveri passed last year) and now on actual IL-76 based live test-bed). 

This is a big thing which people hasn't noticed. USA is not comfortable with this.

Next 2 years are most crucial and a turning point for Indian aero-engine industry. If GTRE pulls it off in next 2 years, India will be 4th power in global aircraft industry who is capable of making own engines as well as fighters.

Good luck to GTRE!!


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## shaktiman2010

Other 3 powers who are capable of this are - USA, Russia, EU. 

I am not sure if China has its own home-grown aero-engine programme with same maturity as Kaveri.


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## Black Widow

arihant said:


> Check this image. Isn't that joogad, they are using electrical strip (woonden made). Not sure what they are cooking up. We need to raise our production standard. USA official called HAL in compete in this.


 
Sour Grapes!!... Do you know Who sabotage the Lavi Project??? I heard it was sabotaged coz It was assumed that Lavi would could have hampered F16 sale... 

and secondly, we are poor country how can we afford 100$ chair for every engineer...


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## IndianArmy

PANDORA said:


>


 
It looks stunning even without proper paint job, Just Imagine what if it was Painted better.... I am fascinated to such Aircraft pictures, Really Attracting

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## shaktiman2010

^^ That camo is blending well with the Moon!!! Looking so evil and deadly.


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## SEAL

PANDORA said:


> *LCA (Tejas), JF-17 Thunder turn rate, roll rate and loop comparison ,HOW TRUE ??? *..........


 
This is not true watch this video LCA completed High-G turn in 39 seconds starting 1:10.  Instead of feeling shame on pathetic Tojos performance Indians still comparing failed Tojos with JF-17 
(F-16 and JF-17 can complete High -G turns within 20Sec)


Aero India 2011


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## GORKHALI

fox said:


> This is not true watch this video LCA completed High-G turn in 39 seconds starting 1:10.  Instead of feeling shame on pathetic Tojos performance Indians still comparing failed Tojos with JF-17
> (F-16 and JF-17 can complete High -G turns within 20Sec)
> 
> 
> Aero India 2011


 
That what i said Jf17 is comparable to F16,F22,F/A 18 Etc etc and if given a chance ,they will give back their F16 blok52 in no time right ??

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## Ammyy

fox said:


> This is not true watch this video LCA completed High-G turn in 39 seconds starting 1:10.  Instead of feeling shame on pathetic Tojos performance Indians still comparing failed Tojos with JF-17
> (F-16 and JF-17 can complete High -G turns within 20Sec)
> 
> 
> Aero India 2011


 
just like some stupid compare jf17 with MKIs and use slowed video of MKIand make fast one for jf17

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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007



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## k7x

fox said:


> This is not true watch this video LCA completed High-G turn in 39 seconds starting 1:10.  Instead of feeling shame on pathetic Tojos performance Indians still comparing failed Tojos with JF-17
> (F-16 and JF-17 can complete High -G turns within 20Sec)


 
Why should we feel shame?

we are very well proud of it.. if i were there in banglore for AI-11. tears would have come from my eyes with joy...

Friend you can not experience that... 

it is like this.. 

In your science exam you have given your answer sheet to your friend (china) to write some thing for you . And he answered all the difficult parts for you.


We took our exam by our-self and answered all questions with what we know.

You are happy with your distinction that your friend has scored for you. 

we are happy with what ever mark we got.. Because all of it is hard work of our people.... 




And turn rate comparison... well future combats will not be Dog fight ... no fighter can match 40G turn rate of incoming missiles... 

there are many fighters that can do more than what JFT did.. 

future is all about brains and A.I. not pure mechanical strength...


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## tallboy123

*Tejas with Fuel probe*

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## ganimi kawa

fox said:


> This is not true watch this video LCA completed High-G turn in 39 seconds starting 1:10.  Instead of feeling shame on pathetic Tojos performance Indians still comparing failed Tojos with JF-17
> (F-16 and JF-17 can complete High -G turns within 20Sec)
> 
> 
> Aero India 2011





*Yaar, sach bata; Didn't you bluff thinking that nobody will take the pains of actually looking at the video and timing the turn?*


*It takes 26 seconds to complete the turn in this video.*

This is a g limited test aircraft with incomplete opening of the g envelop, even then it is a decent performer!

Also it is not mandatory for the test pilot to take every turn under the minimum time, thinking that fox is timing my turn.


*Finally, you have to understand the cranked delta design to understand the altitude and speed region where it is the top performer. (HINT---It is not your regular airshow altitude or the speed region)*

You need to study, fox! Study hard!

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## Riaz Mohammed

ganimi kawa said:


> *Yaar, sach bata; Didn't you bluff thinking that nobody will take the pains of actually looking at the video and timing the turn?*
> 
> 
> *It takes 26 seconds to complete the turn in this video.*
> 
> This is a g limited test aircraft with incomplete opening of the g envelop, even then it is a decent performer!
> 
> Also it is not mandatory for the test pilot to take every turn under the minimum time, thinking that fox is timing my turn.
> 
> 
> *Finally, you have to understand the cranked delta design to understand the altitude and speed region where it is the top performer. (HINT---It is not your regular airshow altitude or the speed region)*
> 
> You need to study, fox! Study hard!


 
i love you i love you i love you i love you i love you!


----------



## BlueDot_in_Space

Riaz Mohammed said:


> i love you i love you i love you i love you i love you!


----------



## GORKHALI

Riaz Mohammed said:


> i love you i love you i love you i love you i love you!


 
hahahahahaha  *ganimi ji !!kabhi bataya nahi...*


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## Joe Shearer

ganimi kawa said:


> *Yaar, sach bata; Didn't you bluff thinking that nobody will take the pains of actually looking at the video and timing the turn?*
> 
> 
> *It takes 26 seconds to complete the turn in this video.*
> 
> This is a g limited test aircraft with incomplete opening of the g envelop, even then it is a decent performer!
> 
> Also it is not mandatory for the test pilot to take every turn under the minimum time, thinking that fox is timing my turn.
> 
> 
> *Finally, you have to understand the cranked delta design to understand the altitude and speed region where it is the top performer. (HINT---It is not your regular airshow altitude or the speed region)*
> 
> You need to study, fox! Study hard!


 
Clinical and precise. Thanks, Ganimi.

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## jha

Riaz Mohammed said:


> i love you i love you i love you i love you i love you!


 
Someone has got a crush..Congrats Ganimi..


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## elite

Riaz Mohammed said:


> i love you i love you i love you i love you i love you!


Hahahaha..........This is the 1st time I saw this kind of stuffs in a defence forum....

*@Riaz* : Please make sure that *gamini *is your opposite sex..... 

*@gamini* : Congratulation to you.....You will have a happy life ahead....
Whats you comment???


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## GORKHALI

* LCA TRAINER FRONT  *

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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: The Iron Bird Team: A Tejas story never told before!




































Iron Bird as the name suggests is a testing facility wherein the entire aircraft is functionally replicated to meet the testing requirements. The iron girders support the entire Hydraulics System, the Flight Control System (FCS), the Undercarriage System, the Utility Systems Management System (USMS), wherein the positioning and routing of the LRUs and the tubing/lines etc. are almost exact to the aircraft. This bird cannot fly but it facilitates the aircraft to fly safe and sound.
The iron bird test rig is designed to enable the ground testing of the LCA-FCS in open and closed loop modes and also with the pilot in the loop. The test facility contains the Iron Bird Rig and all the subsystems like Cockpit, Avionics Suite, the Outside Window Imagery, all the IFCS LRUs etc., which interface with the heart of the Tejas Flight Control System, the Digital Flight Control computer (DFCC). In addition, it contains the six degrees of simulation platform on Flight Dynamics Simulator which runs the aircraft model in real time and provides sensor inputs to DFCC as well as information for the cockpit display system. Hence it is the Onboard Flight Program (OFP) residing in the DFCC which is tested with all sorts of checks in place in the form of engineering assessment at first and then the pilot evaluation. The facility provides with the actual scenario the DFCC hardware and the software shall experience in the aircraft that makes it a &#8216;close to the aircraft&#8217; test set up. Even the aircraft hardware/software IFCS snags are replicated/ recreated to debug and troubleshoot them efficiently and effectively. It is quite noteworthy that more than 7 dozens different versions of DFCC OFP software has been test and evaluated by Iron Bird team, which gives an idea of the efforts involved in the development program of this calibre and a gradual march towards achieving the perfection as far as the software of a fly-by-wire aircraft is concerned. It is a well acknowledged fact that &#8216;extensive testing of flight control system on the iron bird rig has contributed to flawless flights of Tejas&#8217;. That is the statement made by the top brass to all the VIP and VVIPs who visit the facility quite frequently.
Since this is the last platform before the DFCC is delivered for fitment on to the aircraft, the responsibility and the accountability of the team is so immense that the team embraces an over- cautious approach and puts on all the efforts in totality. The balance between doing justice to the software and stick to the tight schedules make them put their efforts almost 12 hours a day, six days a week. Sometimes even the Sundays are also not spared.
At present there are two Iron Bird test facilities existing to cater for the needs of Tejas Mk1 fighter and Tejas Trainer/Naval Variant. The work on Iron Bird I facility was started way back in early years of the last decade of 20th century. The rig refinements and the initial engineering software testing started in the mid of that decade and formal flight worthy software testing in the year 1997. The completely tested and evaluated software for the first prototype namely the OFP V4019 was delivered in the year 2000 which led to the first flight of Tejas TD1 in January 2001. The second test facility, the Iron Bird &#8211; II was established mainly for Tejas Trainer and Naval variant and was commissioned in 2007-08. The Tejas trainer software was tested on it which finally led to the successful first flight of Tejas trainer variant with DFCC OFP V8002 in November 2009. The DFCC with the OFP for Naval variant is expected to be delivered to aircraft by April 2011.
There were many stumbling blocks in this entire chronology of testing the DFCC OFP at Iron Bird test facility. It started with the sanctions, post Pokharan &#8211; II, which made the path tougher and darker and then it was Y2K havoc, which led to providing jobs to anybody who could operate a computer. These disturbances blew off many experts from within the Tejas program and especially those working on FCS and particularly at Iron Bird. The Iron Bird saw an Avalanche breakdown and was left with just a handful of inexperienced engineers. But that didn&#8217;t stop the &#8216;left out team&#8217; to continue with it efforts as it was the zenith of the project. Dr. B Subba Reddy singlehandedly took the completion of Iron Bird testing as a challenge and with those handful HAL engineers and few scientists from ADA delivered the DFCC hardware and the software to the aircraft. The team used to put almost 16 hours a day to utilise the system as per the schedule, to analyse the mammoth data captures, to go through each and every plots and figures before clearing the tests and offering the results to the certifying agencies. There were many problem reports / snags generated in the process and finally the product came in the form of OFP V4019, declared almost bug free.
The team was so cautious in its approach that with a single failure at the end of the prescribed 50 hours of fault free testing at Iron Bird, the clock was reset to zero and the entire test was redone amounting to a total of almost 110 hours of fault free testing. This enormously boosted the pilot&#8217;s confidence and made them eager to take off the actual wings. Prior to this fault free tests the team of Tejas pilots have undergone rigorous closed loop failure testing covering all the possible IFCS, electrical and hydraulics failures and studying and responding to them. This exercise also made them aware of handling the situation for possible failures on aircraft as they were to fly for the first time an indigenous fighter plane with fly-by-wire technology. Such an exercise was possible only at Iron Bird and the team left no stone unturned to offer it in totality to the pilots.
And the first flight happened, the nation applauded it, but nobody hailed Iron Bird team. Dr. B Subba Reddy was transferred to other division for administrative reasons and the program suffered another setback as he was also the deputy director of National Control Law (CLAW) team of Tejas. Some temporary arrangements were done from HAL side to fill the void left by Dr. Reddy, but to no avail. However the core Iron Bird team with the support of ADA was strong enough to deliver the products (the software versions with updates) in time. The HAL saw the Iron Bird team as an unproductive group of people since they were not directly contributing to the production targets of HAL and the approach continues till today. ADA celebrated the milestones of Tejas project with its scientists and between these two approaches, the Iron Bird team was left out unacknowledged at every occasion. The question still remains unanswered: &#8220;Whose baby is this Iron Bird, anyway?&#8221;
With the project directors of Tejas raising their voices at various forums, the Iron Bird team was finally augmented with HAL manpower in the year 2007 and currently boasts of 18 engineers of various domains. The team is headed by one Mr Sanjay Sharma, who has been associated with Iron Bird testing from the early days. It was his initiative that Iron Bird team still remains capable and efficient despite various setbacks. He also guides a team of 7 highly skilled engineers deputed to National Control Law (CLAW) team of Tejas at NAL. A big section of HAL higher management still remains unaware of the facts, potential, pains and achievements of the team.
We may be happy with the participation of private industry in the field of aeronautics, but the crude fact is that whenever an aerospace company or a venture has been established, it has eaten away the cream of the industries like HAL, ADA, and ADE etc. There are many who have been offered plum positions and fat salaries for similar work in these private establishments. And believe it or not, some of the delay in the Tejas project can be attributed to this very fact also. People of the level of project director, AGM etc. had redefined their loyalties and jumped to a world of leisure and comfort. In spite of these alluring offerings to the core people associated with the Tejas program the program had continued without much deceleration and the &#8216;Tejas Loyals&#8217; came out with flying colours. Most of these crazy people have even never seen their salary slips from past many years. Ask them their basic pay even today and they will start looking at the skies, not for a clue but to tell the world, Tejas is our actual pay that we have earned. The soldiers at the borders have the obsession of dying for the country, we, at Iron Bird live with that and are always ready to die with that furore.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1578 Test Flights successfully. (23-Feb-2011).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-203,PV3-269,LSP1-62,LSP2-166,PV5-25,LSP3-30,LSP4-32,LSP5-11)

Archives


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## tallboy123

*Man its striking Awesome....*


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Interesting that no anti ship, anti radiation, or other kind of A2G missiles are shown. It was often speculated that Tejas will use Russian A2G missiles as well.


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## tallboy123

sancho said:


> *Interesting that no anti ship,* anti radiation, or other kind of A2G missiles are shown. It was often speculated that Tejas will use Russian A2G missiles as well.


I can clearly see Anti-Ship written under external stores in that image u Quoted...
check it once


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## sancho

tallboy123 said:


> I can clearly see Anti-Ship written under external stores in that image u Quoted...
> check it once


 
I meant in the weapon loads graphics, would have been interesting to see, which one and moreover how many (especially in regard to N-LCA).


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## tallboy123

^^how about a miniaturized Brahmos of 100Km or 75Km on Tejas.....it could well guard our sea lanes


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## sancho

tallboy123 said:


> ^^how about a miniaturized Brahmos of 100Km or 75Km on Tejas.....it could well guard our sea lanes


 
Or simply use normal anti ship missiles on LCA, like Kh 35, Harpoon, Exocet, NSM, RBS 15. Same use and more suited with the payload and thrust performance of LCA. Brahmos will already be further developed, with smaller size and weight, but mainly for Pak Fa / FGFA (externally!) and not for LCA.

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## rcrmj

shaktiman2010 said:


> Other 3 powers who are capable of this are - USA, Russia, EU.
> 
> I am not sure if China has its own home-grown aero-engine programme with same maturity as Kaveri.


 
dude r u serious? the J-20 is powered by WS-10B on the flight, and WS-15 13,000kg has just finished none stop 3000 hours ground test, and WS-10a is powering J-11b, and Qinglin engine is powering JH-7a.

btw Kaveri is a russina product


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## Water Car Engineer

> btw Kaveri is a russina product



Prove it to us then...


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## unicorn148

Kaveri is not an Russian product and Russia was no where involved in the project only France was involved for some time. the Russian help was only taken for high altitude testing only


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## Capt.Popeye

rcrmj said:


> dude r u serious? the J-20 is powered by WS-10B on the flight, and WS-15 13,000kg has just finished none stop 3000 hours ground test, and WS-10a is powering J-11b, and Qinglin engine is powering JH-7a.
> 
> btw Kaveri is a russina product


 
Any proof?


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## ganimi kawa

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>


 



PANDORA said:


> hahahahahaha *ganimi ji !!kabhi bataya nahi...*





jha said:


> Someone has got a crush..Congrats Ganimi..






elite said:


> Hahahaha..........This is the 1st time I saw this kind of stuffs in a defence forum....
> 
> *@Riaz* : Please make sure that *gamini *is your opposite sex.....
> 
> *@gamini* : Congratulation to you.....You will have a happy life ahead....
> Whats you comment???


 


*To all of you, I've got only two words............*


*"BRO LOVE!!!!"*


This is what it means! Though, I'll post one of the definations here,too.




> *A group of heterosexual guys who are into hanging out with no one except their main group.*




So, all you fellas with dirty minds, join the group with me and riaz bhai and spread the love!










*@ Joe dada,

A word of praise from you is worth it's weight in gold, thanks!
*


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## SpArK

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

wOw another MF hussain and Gaja *GAMINI* affair unearthed.

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## suryanaidu

can tejas mark 2 defeat Chengdu J-10??????


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## GareebNawaz

^^ i dont think so....


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## jha

suryanaidu said:


> can tejas mark 2 defeat Chengdu J-10??????


 
Yes it most certainly can...

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## rcrmj

Capt.Popeye said:


> Any proof?


 
for the WS-15 part here is the website address: http://club.china.com/data/thread/27...35/14/3_1.html

but it is in chinese, rough translation is:

just one day after Chinese New Year 2.Fed.2011, on China.com there was an anonymous guy put a post claim that WS-15 is successfully finalized. (the guy claimed he worked for related department, at the Chinese New Year's eve party, a person in uniform from the top gave a keynote speech appraising all the hard works and milestone acheivements, on one occassion he mention the 'next generation engine' had been successfully passed the 3000hours ground testing phase, and had mention the max thrust of the 'next generation engine' is over 18,000kgf !)

Thrust of WS-15 is 16.3 tonne without afterburner, 18.7 with afterburner. 

Two engines were produced for the first experiment batch

One had ran on a test platform for 3600 hrs to date. One had restarted repeatedly 450 times. Both were normal.

J-20 was using the second experimental production run.

Large scale production runs pending. 

and also for the WS-10 on J-11Bs is a clear fact which you will find lots threads about it on PDF.


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## luckyyy

rcrmj said:


> for the WS-15 part here is the website address: http://club.china.com/data/thread/27...35/14/3_1.html
> 
> but it is in chinese, rough translation is:
> 
> ........


 
you got it wrong , the member just asking the proff of your comment on kaveri engine where you called it a russian engine...


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## Capt.Popeye

rcrmj said:


> for the WS-15 part here is the website address: http://club.china.com/data/thread/27...35/14/3_1.html


 
Nada, Amigo.
My question was about your contention that the "KAVERI" engine is a Russian engine. Read my original post again, I have underlined your statement there
My question still stands............


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## shaktiman2010

rcrmj said:


> for the WS-15 part here is the website address: http://club.china.com/data/thread/27...35/14/3_1.html
> 
> but it is in chinese, rough translation is:
> 
> J-20 was using the second experimental production run.
> 
> Large scale production runs pending.
> 
> and also for the WS-10 on J-11Bs is a clear fact which you will find lots threads about it on PDF.


 
China imported the technology from Russia and painted it as "Chinese". So, basically its Russian engine.


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## GORKHALI

* Zavtra 2k1 Aero-Mech by ~RMZ07*


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## sudhir007

The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : DRDO official sees good export potential for Tejas

W. Selvamurthy, Chief Controller, Life Sciences, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said there could be a good export market for Tejas, the country's first indigenously built supersonic fighter aircraft, if the Centre okayed it.

Speaking to The Hindu recently, he said the DRDO had already received enquiries for Tejas from various countries.

The plane was given Initial Operating Clearance (IOC) only recently by Defence Minister A. K. Antony. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was the star attraction at the recently conducted Aero India air show in Bangalore, in which 45 countries took part.

*Rare capability*

Saying India was among very few countries in the world capable of producing fighter planes, Mr. Selvamurthy said that third world countries, developing countries and even some of the developed countries were markets for Tejas.

Since the production cost, research and development cost of the Tejas was relatively low compared to the other fighter aircraft, India could sell the Tejas at a lower price.

Since the production models were doing extremely well, there wouldn't be any problem in obtaining Final Operating Clearance (FCA) for the fighter aircraft, he said.

In line with the requirements of the Indian Air Force, the process of fine tuning Tejas, including flight envelope, flight manoeuvrability, payload integration and other issues have been taken up.

The fighter plane is expected to get the Final Operating Clearance in the first quarter of 2012, the official said.
*
Production completed*

Mr. Selvamurthy said out of 40 Tejas aircraft ordered by the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) had already completed production of 10. It had already been figured in the inventory of IAF. Another 20 aircraft would be completed after the Final Operating Clearance is given.

It is expected that an order might be received for a large number of aircraft in 2012. HAL had also geared up its capacity building facilities, including assembly line and others.

It planned to increase the capacity to increase the number of aircrafts built in a year to meet the growing demand.

*The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.*

The country had been placed in comfortable position as far as Tejas was concerned as it was not depended upon anybody for lifecycle support, maintenance cost and others because of the indigenous technology.

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## luckyyy

> The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.



130cr=30million , and after large scale production will came down further !

why spending money on mirage upgrade and mmrca then ?


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## sudhir007

luckyyy said:


> 130cr=30million , and after large scale production will came down further !
> 
> why spending money on mirage upgrade and mmrca then ?


 
Mirage 2005 is very potent Fighter which IAF want to upgrade but if you talking up-gradation cost it same as 1lca


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## Water Car Engineer

P.S. SUBRAMANYAM, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, stands next to a big model of India's own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, fondly runs his fingers over the edges of its wide wings, and says with a glimmer in his eyes: &#8220;This is the lightest combat aircraft in the world. Its pilots have told me that when they land, it is like landing on butter! The landing is so smooth. It is because the wings occupy the largest area of the aircraft's surface area. It has no tail! This is something special about this aircraft.&#8221;

After a 20-year struggle, the indigenously built Tejas is going places. The attitude of the press to the LCA project has changed in the past two years after journalists realised that several hundreds of flights of Tejas were incident-free, that India has developed many of its systems and components on its own, and that the project was marching towards fruition, said K. Jayaprakash Rao, Regional Public Relations Officer, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Bangalore. The Initial Operations Clearance (IOC) it received on January 10 meant that its production could begin at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore. &#8220;So far we have spent Rs.6,000 crore on the project, which has resulted in 14 aircraft, out of which 11 are flying. The rest are ready to fly,&#8221; said Subramanyam, who is also Programme Director (Combat Aircraft).

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for 40 of them. Assembly lines have been built at HAL to roll out eight aircraft a year. The production capacity will be doubled to meet the requirement of 200 aircraft in the next decade. The IAF has suggested the development of a derivative, called Tejas Mark II, with a higher thrust engine and other improvements. The ADA is working on it and hopes to have a test flight in December 2014 and begin production in mid-2016.

The naval version of Tejas is ready and the first flight will take place in two months. A two-seater trainer version flew in November 2010 and one more will fly in the second half of 2011. The development of the Tejas trainer for both the Army and the Air Force will be completed in another 18 months, after which it will go into production. Tejas is powered by the GE-F404-IN20 engine from the United States.

The single-engine, single-seater, fourth generation aircraft is the smallest and lightest multi-role supersonic fighter in its class. The Delta wing aircraft (wingspan 8.2 metres, length 13.2 m, and height 4.4 m) will carry a variety of missiles and laser-guided bombs. Tejas is already integrated with the R-73 missile and is soon to be integrated with two Israeli missiles, Python-5, a close combat missile, and Derby, which can home in on targets more than 50 km away. The indigenous content of Tejas, which stands at 60 per cent now, will reach 70 per cent in its Mark II variant.

In the face of technology denial regimes and embargoes, the development of the aircraft epitomises the collaborative efforts of several institutions, among them the ADA, its principal partner HAL, and the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).

P.S. Krishnan, Director, ADE, said, &#8220;We have developed the most crucial technologies for Tejas. We have built a simulator for it, which is a world-class facility. We built the simulator for Arjun, the main battle tank. Simulators are a big area for us. We developed the digital fly-by-wire flight control systems for the LCA, which is a crucial technology.&#8221;

&#8220;It is a state-of-the-art simulator. It can help the pilot fly his aircraft in any mode he wants,&#8221; explained V.S. Chandra Shekar, Group Director, ADE. B.P. Sashidhara, Scientist, Flight Simulation Division, added, &#8220;Whatever manoeuvres we can do in real aircraft, we can do in the simulator. We can pitch, roll and yaw.&#8221; V. Kala, Project Director for Tejas' flight control systems (FCS), S. Gurudev, Group Director, and Krishnan, who worked jointly on the FCS, were proud that the ADE was chosen to make it.






*



THE LCA MISSION simulator

Click to expand...

*The fighter aircraft's performance has been flawless &#8211; in more than 1,550 flights, as on February 17, there have been no incidents at all, not to talk of accidents. Tejas has been flown successfully in extreme conditions &#8211; in Nagpur during peak summer at a searing 48° Celsius and in the rarefied heights of Leh at &#8722;28° C. The LCA is marching towards Final Operations Clearance in 2012.

Air Commodore Rohit Verma, Project Director, National Flight Test Centre, Bangalore, who has flown Tejas 55 times, said, &#8220;The aircraft handles very well. Young pilots have flown it. They find it safe. It has good sensors, radars, a helmet-mounted sight and an inertial navigation unit.&#8221;

On the basis of a project definition document that was formulated in 1990, the ADA, in a report to the Ministry of Defence, said it would take seven years and Rs.4,000 crore to develop the LCA. It was conceived as an ambitious attempt to bridge huge technological gaps in multiple disciplines, including fighter aircraft design. The programme began in 1993 when the Government of India decided to support the technology development for the aircraft, which was completed in March 2004. The first Technology Demonstrator for flight took place earlier, in January 2001.

&#8220;The biggest challenge when we took up the programme in 1993 was to catch up with the rest of the world in fourth generation fighter aircraft technologies. The greatest achievement of this phase is that India mastered them,&#8221; said Subramanyam. The fourth generation technologies are fly-by-wire flight control systems; unstable aerodynamics; glass cockpit incorporating the latest all-digital avionics systems; advanced composite materials for the airframe; and computer-based control of all electromechanical systems.


When India began the Tejas programme, the rest of the world argued that India would not be able to do it because it faced a gap of 30 years in developing these fourth generation technologies. Subramanyam said, &#8220;I should put on record here that it was the decision of persons such as [former President] A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and Kota Harinarayana that we should attempt these technologies. They said we should be confident that our youngsters would be able to achieve these technologies. &#8221;

Kota Harinarayana, former ADA Director, is the chief architect of the Tejas project. In honour of his contribution to the project, the letters &#8220;KH&#8221; were inscribed on the aircraft that made the first flight in January 2001.

The programme faced a setback in the form of U.S. sanctions in the wake of India testing five nuclear devices at Pokhran, Rajasthan, in May 1998. Again, the motivation provided by Kalam and Harinarayana helped the LCA team develop he fourth generation technologies without U.S. support.

&#8220;The five years of sanctions from 1998 to 2003 made us self-reliant and gave us the confidence that we could do things on our own,&#8221; said Subramanyam. On the basis of the success of the first flight, the Government of India gave the go-ahead for a prototype vehicle and for the limited series production of Tejas. In 2006, the IAF, which funded the project, placed orders for a squadron of 20 aircraft, and in 2011, a few days before Tejas received its IOC, the IAF placed orders for another 20 aircraft.

In 2003, the Navy stepped in with funds for the development of a naval variant. The first prototype of the naval variant is in the final stage of development and will fly in the first half of 2011. The Navy has said it will require the Mark II variant as well and will fund the programme.

A team of test pilots from the IAF and the Navy gave suggestions on how to improve the aircraft's flying qualities. &#8220;The pilots were able to tell the designers how the aircraft should behave. So whatever deficiencies they had seen in other aircraft, we were able to overcome in Tejas,&#8221; said Subramanyam.

&#8220;When the naval prototype completes its [aircraft] carrier compatibility trails by 2014, it will be a great achievement,&#8221; he said. For India will be only the second country, after Russia, to have a fighter aircraft that can ski-jump from an aircraft carrier and land on the carrier.&#8221; The ski jump involves a short runway on the aircraft carrier for take-off and landing with the help of an arrester. The U.S.' fighter aircraft use the catapult method to take off and land on carriers.

A spin-off from the programme is that it has nurtured many private industries to take the various fourth generation fighter aircraft technologies to new levels of design, development, testing and fabrication.

Meanwhile, the Kaveri engine for fighter aircraft being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a DRDO laboratory in Bangalore, crossed a milestone on November 3, 2010, when an IL-76 aircraft flew with it for an hour at an altitude of 6,000 m at a speed of 0.6 Mach (0.6 times the speed of sound). This trial took place at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow, Russia. DRDO officials said the engine control, performance and health were excellent during the flight. The IL-76 was modified for this flight-trial, with the Kaveri engine replacing one of the four engines of the IL-76. A team of 20 GTRE scientists worked with the GFRI for these trials.

In a year or so, the GTRE and Snecma (French manufacturer of civil and military aircraft engines) will start working jointly on Kaveri, and the engine will reach final development in about five years. There are plans to integrate the engine with Tejas to evaluate and validate Kaveri's design. &#8220;This will give us the confidence to work with Snecma,&#8221; said Subramanyam.

Hi-tech & Indian

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> 130cr=30million , and after large scale production will came down further !
> 
> why spending money on mirage upgrade and mmrca then ?


 
Because LCA MK1 will not be as capable as Mirage 2000-5, just as LCA MK2 will not be as capable as most of the MMRCAs. Most importantly, LCA won't bring any benefits in regard to ToT, offset, or political advantages. Both fighters simply has different aims, besides the operational differences!
LCA is important for us to build up an own indigenous industry, to get a base of experience and know how for later developments and we are still in this first stages. 
MMRCA instead is aimed to further improve our industry with ToT, co-developments, or JV, by the fact that we faced a lot of problems during LCA developments. We need this input through not only for future developments, but also for LCA MK2, or future upgrades of LCA in general.


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Because LCA MK1 will not be as capable as Mirage 2000-5, just as LCA MK2 will not be as capable as most of the MMRCAs. Most importantly, *LCA won't bring any benefits in regard to ToT, offset, or political advantages.* Both fighters simply has different aims, besides the operational differences!



A country can't transfer technology(ToT) to itself. Isn't that logical to you or you have decided to bash LCA in endless and eternal manner?



sancho said:


> *LCA is important for us to build up an own indigenous industry, to get a base of experience and know how for later developments and we are still in this first stages. *


 
Absolutely. That's why LCA-Mk2 should be our priority now, which is technologically more advanced than LCA Mk-I. Let's hope IAF doesn't divert the funds to foreign suppliers, under some new excuse.

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## shaktiman2010

Liquid said:


> P.S. SUBRAMANYAM, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, stands next to a big model of India's own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, fondly runs his fingers over the edges of its wide wings, and says with a glimmer in his eyes: This is the lightest combat aircraft in the world. *Its pilots have told me that when they land, it is like landing on butter! The landing is so smooth.* It is because the wings occupy the largest area of the aircraft's surface area. It has no tail! This is something special about this aircraft.
> 
> ... The *Initial Operations Clearance (IOC) it received on January 10 meant that its production could begin at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore.* So far we have spent Rs.6,000 crore on the project, which has resulted in 14 aircraft, out of which 11 are flying. The rest are ready to fly, said Subramanyam, who is also Programme Director (Combat Aircraft).
> 
> ...The *single-engine, single-seater, fourth generation aircraft is the smallest and lightest multi-role supersonic fighter in its class. The Delta wing aircraft (wingspan 8.2 metres, length 13.2 m, and height 4.4 m) will carry a variety of missiles and laser-guided bombs. Tejas is already integrated with the R-73 missile and is soon to be integrated with two Israeli missiles, Python-5, a close combat missile, and Derby, which can home in on targets more than 50 km away.* The indigenous content of Tejas, which stands at 60 per cent now, will reach 70 per cent in its Mark II variant.
> 
> In the face of *technology denial regimes and embargoes*, the development of the aircraft epitomises the *collaborative efforts of several institutions, among them the ADA, its principal partner HAL, and the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).*
> 
> P.S. Krishnan, Director, ADE, said, We have developed the most crucial technologies for Tejas. *We have built a simulator for it*, which is a world-class facility. We built the simulator for Arjun, the main battle tank. Simulators are a big area for us. We developed the digital fly-by-wire flight control systems for the LCA, which is a crucial technology.
> 
> It is a state-of-the-art simulator. *It can help the pilot fly his aircraft in any mode he wants,* explained V.S. Chandra Shekar, Group Director, ADE. *B.P. Sashidhara, Scientist, Flight Simulation Division, added, Whatever manoeuvres we can do in real aircraft, we can do in the simulator. We can pitch, roll and yaw.* V. Kala, Project Director for Tejas' flight control systems (FCS), S. Gurudev, Group Director, and Krishnan, who worked jointly on the FCS, were proud that the ADE was chosen to make it.
> 
> The fighter *aircraft's performance has been flawless  in more than 1,550 flights, as on February 17, there have been no incidents at all, not to talk of accidents.* Tejas has been *flown successfully in extreme conditions  in Nagpur during peak summer at a searing 48° Celsius and in the rarefied heights of Leh at &#8722;28° C.* The LCA is marching towards Final Operations Clearance in 2012.
> 
> *Air Commodore Rohit Verma,* Project Director, National Flight Test Centre, Bangalore, *who has flown Tejas 55 times, said, The aircraft handles very well. Young pilots have flown it. They find it safe.* It has good sensors, radars, a helmet-mounted sight and an inertial navigation unit.
> 
> On the basis of a *project definition document that was formulated in 1990, the ADA, in a report to the Ministry of Defence, said it would take seven years and Rs.4,000 crore to develop the LCA.* It was conceived as an ambitious attempt to bridge huge technological gaps in multiple disciplines, including fighter aircraft design. *The programme began in 1993 when the Government of India decided to support the technology development for the aircraft, which was completed in March 2004. The first Technology Demonstrator for flight took place earlier, in January 2001.*
> 
> The biggest challenge when we took up the programme in 1993 was to catch up with the rest of the world in fourth generation fighter aircraft technologies. *The greatest achievement of this phase is that India mastered them,* said Subramanyam. The *fourth generation technologies are fly-by-wire flight control systems; unstable aerodynamics; glass cockpit incorporating the latest all-digital avionics systems; advanced composite materials for the airframe; and computer-based control of all electromechanical systems.*
> 
> 
> When India began the Tejas programme, *the rest of the world argued that India would not be able to do it because it faced a gap of 30 years in developing these fourth generation technologies.*
> 
> Subramanyam said, I should put on record here that it was the decision of persons such as [former President] A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and Kota Harinarayana *that we should attempt these technologies. They said we should be confident that our youngsters would be able to achieve these technologies. *
> 
> *Kota Harinarayana, former ADA Director, is the chief architect of the Tejas project.* In honour of his contribution to the project, the *letters KH were inscribed on the aircraft that made the first flight in January 2001.*
> 
> ....
> ..
> A team of test pilots from the IAF and the Navy gave suggestions on how to improve the aircraft's flying qualities. The pilots were able to tell the designers how the aircraft should behave. So *whatever deficiencies they had seen in other aircraft, we were able to overcome in Tejas,* said Subramanyam.
> 
> When the naval prototype completes its [aircraft] carrier compatibility trails by 2014, it will be a great achievement, he said. *For India will be only the second country, after Russia, to have a fighter aircraft that can ski-jump from an aircraft carrier and land on the carrier.* The ski jump involves a short runway on the aircraft carrier for take-off and landing with the help of an arrester. The U.S.' fighter aircraft use the catapult method to take off and land on carriers.
> 
> A *spin-off from the programme is that it has nurtured many private industries to take the various fourth generation fighter aircraft technologies to new levels of design, development, testing and fabrication.*
> 
> ......
> Meanwhile, the *Kaveri engine* for fighter aircraft *being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)*, a DRDO laboratory in Bangalore, *crossed a milestone on November 3, 2010, when an IL-76 aircraft flew with it for an hour at an altitude of 6,000 m at a speed of 0.6 Mach (0.6 times the speed of sound).* This trial took place at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow, Russia. DRDO officials said the *engine control, performance and health were excellent during the flight.*


 
Coooool !!!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Because LCA MK1 will not be as capable as Mirage 2000-5, just as LCA MK2 will not be as capable as most of the MMRCAs. Most importantly, LCA won't bring any benefits in regard to ToT, offset, or political advantages. Both fighters simply has different aims, besides the operational differences!
> LCA is important for us to build up an own indigenous industry, to get a base of experience and know how for later developments and we are still in this first stages.
> MMRCA instead is aimed to further improve our industry with ToT, co-developments, or JV, by the fact that we faced a lot of problems during LCA developments. We need this input through not only for future developments, but also for LCA MK2, or future upgrades of LCA in general.


 
can you be specific on the technologies that LCA doesnt posses but MMRCA posses?


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> A country can't transfer technology(ToT) to itself. Isn't that logical to you or you have decided to bash LCA in endless and eternal manner?


 
Read again! I pointed out the difference between LCA and MMRCA as a project, both have different aims and that's why we can't just buy LCAs instead of MMRCAs.
Once again, I never bashed LCA as a fighter, on the contrary I think we are making a mistake by not focusing enough on it and jumping to AMCA instead. But that doesn't meant I close my eyes on the mistakes and failures that was done in the development, especially in regard to the engine and radar developments. 
But we discussed that before, so there is no point in talking about it again.




kingdurgaking said:


> can you be specific on the technologies that LCA doesnt posses but MMRCA posses?


 
If you refering to my point that LCA MK2 will not be as capable as MMRCAs, then it's not only about techs, although they do offer more here as well (IRST, swashplate AESA radars, SC are uncertain for LCA, TVC won't be available), but about payload, MTOW, numbers of weapon stations.
I still believe if we keep focusing on the potential of MK2, it can be very close to Gripen NG, but that's still a big difference to real medium class fighters:

Payload / MTOW / numbers of weapon stations

LCA MK1 - 3.5t / 13.3t / 7 + 1
M2K-5 - 6.3t / 17t / 9
Gripen NG - 6t / 16.5t / 8 (9) + 1
F16 IN - 8t / 21.8t / 9 + 2

LCA is a light class interceptor mainly, with additional multi role capabilities. But even if the LCA MK2 can match those MMRCAs in range, it will be comparable, only in the A2A role, while the lack of load capabilities will make it less useful in the A2G role.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> If you refering to my point that LCA MK2 will not be as capable as MMRCAs, then it's not only about techs, although they do offer more here as well (IRST, swashplate AESA radars, SC are uncertain for LCA, TVC won't be available), but about payload, MTOW, numbers of weapon stations.
> I still believe if we keep focusing on the potential of MK2, it can be very close to Gripen NG, but that's still a big difference to real medium class fighters:
> 
> Payload / MTOW / numbers of weapon stations
> 
> LCA MK1 - 3.5t / 13.3t / 7 + 1
> M2K-5 - 6.3t / 17t / 9
> Gripen NG - 6t / 16.5t / 8 (9) + 1
> F16 IN - 8t / 21.8t / 9 + 2
> 
> LCA is a light class interceptor mainly, with additional multi role capabilities. But even if the LCA MK2 can match those MMRCAs in range, it will be comparable, only in the A2A role, while the lack of load capabilities will make it less useful in the A2G role.


 
Sancho... Check the Engine performance of Mirage.. it is 64Kn dry and 95kn wet 
while LCA is 54kn dry and 85kn wet... surely Mirage has good thrust.. accepted it has got more hardpoints ... but LCA surely with new thrust.. it is going to have a good MTOW..atleast it will beat M2K in that.. since we have less empty weight and more fuel compared to M2K may be 5.5t which is a good one.... but MTOW will surely exceed M2K... and i wont comment on Hard points just we need to wait until MK2 arrives ...... surely a good multi role one which has potential to beat NG


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> can you be specific on the technologies that LCA doesnt posses but MMRCA posses?


 
other then range and weapon load..MMRCA offering just nothing more to LCA...but that at 3 times the cost of LCA


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## angeldemon_007

> surely a good multi role one which has potential to beat NG


Yeah it surely has potential but a lot has to be done to reach NG level. I think we should wait for mk3 because mk2 does not have enough changes. 
Gripen :
1. Has world's most highly developed multi-frequency data link. (very important feature)
2. Have IRST.
3. Will feature a 2nd generation aesa radar. (I don't know what is 2nd gen aesa radar, if somebody explain it to me it will be good.)
4. Gripen has the best BVR range as compared to any other fighter in MMRCA.
5. Its not platform dependent, i mean you could make any changes to it as per your need unlike US and Russian fighter jets.
6. Very agile and can operate from from small air strips as well as roads just like F18SH.

These are the few things which i can point out without any painful research which makes NG way too ahead of LCA mk2. There could be many more techs were Gripen could be better than LCA mk2 or which LCA mk2 lacks. Also mk2 cost we don't know, while we know that Gripen is a cheap fighter jet.

*Gripen NG is a 4++ gen fighter jet while LCA mk2 is a 4th gen.*



> Once again, I never bashed LCA as a fighter, on the contrary I think we are making a mistake by not focusing enough on it and jumping to AMCA instead.


No i think AMCA was needed and is a very wise decision because we needed our own testbed to test all the 4++ gen and 5th gen techs that we will gain from MMRCA and FGFA program.
But looking at the features of LCA mk2, research to improve its feature should continue side by side.


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## MST

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah it surely has potential but a lot has to be done to reach NG level. I think we should wait for mk3 because mk2 does not have enough changes.
> Gripen :
> 1. Has world's most highly developed multi-frequency data link. (very important feature)
> 2. Have IRST.
> *3. Will feature a 2nd generation aesa radar. (I don't know what is 2nd gen aesa radar, if somebody explain it to me it will be good.)
> 4. Gripen has the best BVR range as compared to any other fighter in MMRCA.
> 5. Its not platform dependent, i mean you could make any changes to it as per your need unlike US and Russian fighter jets.
> 6. Very agile and can operate from from small air strips as well as roads just like F18SH.
> *
> These are the few things which i can point out without any painful research which makes NG way too ahead of LCA mk2. There could be many more techs were Gripen could be better than LCA mk2 or which LCA mk2 lacks. Also mk2 cost we don't know, while we know that Gripen is a cheap fighter jet.


 
Can you give a source for point number 3. Only US has 2nd generation AESA. And the Gripen AESA is not by SAAB. Its a different company. We can also buy an AESA from Israel and fit it on LCA but we want to develop our own AESA for LCA.

What do you mean by point number 4. Isn't BVR dependent on the radar and the AAM Range. So what's so unique about Gripen. You need to elaborate this point.

Point No. 5. What do you mean by platform independent. Can you chance the American engine. If SAAB has said so can you give a source.

Point no. 6. LCA Naval will have a similar short take off. They can incorporate some of those technologies into LCA. So no big deal. Anyways for a large country like India this is not even a requirement.

The only thing that Grippen has and LCA doesn't have is the IRST. Considering LCA Mk II is planned for 2016 and Gripen NG for 2017 I still can't see what's so great about Gripen.


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah it surely has potential but a lot has to be done to reach NG level. I think we should wait for mk3 because mk2 does not have enough changes.
> Gripen :
> 1. Has world's most highly developed multi-frequency data link. (very important feature)


sure accepted NG has the best data link... but it doesnt mean LCA doesnt have.. and LCA will be very well integrated with AFNET which is important in a network centric warfare... 


> 2. Have IRST.


 May not be a requirement or priority if not it would have been featured atleast we would have imported for sure..


> 3. Will feature a 2nd generation aesa radar. (I don't know what is 2nd gen aesa radar, if somebody explain it to me it will be good.)


 When AESA ready will eventually get into LCA.. right now it is predicted to take 5 yrs and will not be available when MK2 rolls out.. but once completed it will surely find its way into LCA.. as far as i know we are working on future generation AESA like CAPTOR


> 4. Gripen has the best BVR range as compared to any other fighter in MMRCA.


 Whats the use.. you need a weapon to operate on the BVR.. BVR is driven by weapon.. still ASTRA-2 is bound to have the range of Meteor..


> 5. Its not platform dependent, i mean you could make any changes to it as per your need unlike US and Russian fighter jets.


 it is our own stuff... so you can imagine more than that.. if we are not sactioned like sweden.. i bet we will have all tech what NG has posses


> 6. Very agile and can operate from from small air strips as well as roads just like F18SH.


 accepted a design that LCA lacks.. but LCA has been optimized for Indian environment which is highly important



> These are the few things which i can point out without any painful research which makes NG way too ahead of LCA mk2. There could be many more techs were Gripen could be better than LCA mk2 or which LCA mk2 lacks. Also mk2 cost we don't know, while we know that Gripen is a cheap fighter jet.
> 
> *Gripen NG is a 4++ gen fighter jet while LCA mk2 is a 4th gen.*


As far as i am also concerned LCA Mk2 will be 4th gen .. Gripen is good no doubt but any platform is as good as it has to posses the PayLoad & armanents ....
with MK2 we will have a good MTOW and good operational range and pay load.. weapons we can add at any time... yes some technologies like IRST and AESA will take time.. but will eventually get into LCA once they are ready .... You have to understand still LCA will be in lighter category not in the medium category of NG.. but still it can make the range and payload of NG.. yes technologies we lack but we will develop hopefully in a decade.. we are short of decade thats why I emphasis MMRCA is important..



> No i think AMCA was needed and is a very wise decision because we needed our own testbed to test all the 4++ gen and 5th gen techs that we will gain from MMRCA and FGFA program.
> But looking at the features of LCA mk2, research to improve its feature should continue side by side.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Sancho... Check the Engine performance of Mirage.. it is 64Kn dry and 95kn wet
> while LCA is 54kn dry and 85kn wet... surely Mirage has good thrust.. accepted it has got more hardpoints ... but LCA surely with new thrust.. it is going to have a good MTOW..atleast it will beat M2K in that.. since we have less empty weight and more fuel compared to M2K may be 5.5t which is a good one.... but MTOW will surely exceed M2K... and i wont comment on Hard points just we need to wait until MK2 arrives ...... surely a good multi role one which has potential to beat NG


 
I guess you mean LCA MK2 with new thrust, if so I completely agree that it will surpass Mirage 2000 (although I'm not sure about payload and MTOW), but MK1 won't and that version is technically at the same level. 
Hardpoints are imp even more important than the payload, because they decide mainly about the load configs that are possible. Mirage 2000-5 and the EF has similar layouts in this regard, which is mainly focused on carrying as much AAMs as possible. Both can carry 4 x BVR missiles and a fuel tank just at the fuselage stations, which leaves the wingstations free for more loads. LCA instead can carry only a fuel tank and the tarettig pod under the fuselage / air intake.
In A2G on the other hand, this layout is not so good, because the number of heavy stations is limited to 3, just like on LCA, while a Rafale, or F18SH offer even 5 and even the Gripen NG has 4 such stations. So lets say LCA MK2 will get close to Gripen NG in terms of payload, MTOW and internal fuel (which is likely), it still will remain less capable in weaponloads, unless LCA will get more stations as well, preferably more heavy staitions of course.

At the end it depends also what our forces plans to do with LCA and N-LCA. Imo, apart from the air defense role, LCA will be tasked with CAS roles, which means strikes with 500, or 1000lb LGBs (Sudarshan) at closer distances, while MKI will complement here with heavy strikes capabilities (KAB 1500, or a variety of A2G missiles (Kh 31, 35, 58, Brahmos, Nirbhay). What's missing will be taken over by MMRCAs (low level, deep penetration strikes on high value targets, with PGMs and stand off weapons) and hopefully weaponized UAVs (CAS and SEAD, would love to see Heron and Rustom with LAHAT, or even HELINA missiles).

All in all a great increase of capability in A2A and A2G, if the right fighters and weapons will be chosen!

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah it surely has potential but a lot has to be done to reach NG level...
> ...These are the few things which i can point out without any painful research which makes NG way too ahead of LCA mk2. There could be many more techs were Gripen could be better than LCA mk2 or which LCA mk2 lacks.



Agree that Gripen might offer better techs and possibly weapons, but then you have to compare the techs and weapons of LCA MK2, not the LCA as a fighter!
When you compare the real difference of a possible MK2 and Gripen NG fighter, you have to compare the basic spec differences like, emptyweight, MTOW, payload, hardpoints, speed, TWR, wingloading, range...and if you do so, you will see how close LCA MK2 can be at the NG.




angeldemon_007 said:


> No i think AMCA was needed and is a very wise decision because we needed our own testbed to test all the 4++ gen and 5th gen techs that we will gain from MMRCA and FGFA program.



Then just make an AMCA tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, not a serial production fighter for several billions! You get the same, while paying less and keep the focus on LCA and FGFA.


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Then just make an AMCA tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, not a serial production fighter for several billions! You get the same, while paying less and keep the focus on LCA and FGFA.


 
That doesn't make any sense.

Why even fund AMCA if you don't want to use it in war? Another Arjun MBT scandal?

Putting LCA into production will create a huge technical base and trained manpower for AMCA's production lines and will cut the timelines in great way.

By pushing our responsibilities to foreign weapon makers(FGFA), we are only increasing technological gap between India and other countries. FGFA will not bring any R&D infrastructure into to India, other than few tokens. FGFA design will be fully done within Russia.

Productionizing LCA-Mk2 and speeding up AMCA design finalization and initiation of ground-work, is the way to go.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I guess you mean LCA MK2 with new thrust, if so I completely agree that it will surpass Mirage 2000 (although I'm not sure about payload and MTOW), but MK1 won't and that version is technically at the same level.
> Hardpoints are imp even more important than the payload, because they decide mainly about the load configs that are possible. Mirage 2000-5 and the EF has similar layouts in this regard, which is mainly focused on carrying as much AAMs as possible. Both can carry 4 x BVR missiles and a fuel tank just at the fuselage stations, which leaves the wingstations free for more loads. LCA instead can carry only a fuel tank and the tarettig pod under the fuselage / air intake.
> In A2G on the other hand, this layout is not so good, because the number of heavy stations is limited to 3, just like on LCA, while a Rafale, or F18SH offer even 5 and even the Gripen NG has 4 such stations. So lets say LCA MK2 will get close to Gripen NG in terms of payload, MTOW and internal fuel (which is likely), it still will remain less capable in weaponloads, unless LCA will get more stations as well, preferably more heavy staitions of course.
> 
> At the end it depends also what our forces plans to do with LCA and N-LCA. Imo, apart from the air defense role, LCA will be tasked with CAS roles, which means strikes with 500, or 1000lb LGBs (Sudarshan) at closer distances, while MKI will complement here with heavy strikes capabilities (KAB 1500, or a variety of A2G missiles (Kh 31, 35, 58, Brahmos, Nirbhay). What's missing will be taken over by MMRCAs (low level, deep penetration strikes on high value targets, with PGMs and stand off weapons) and hopefully weaponized UAVs (CAS and SEAD, would love to see Heron and Rustom with LAHAT, or even HELINA missiles).
> 
> All in all a great increase of capability in A2A and A2G, if the right fighters and weapons will be chosen!


 
That is what i said.. if M2K had engine of the performance of LCA then it would have been more poor than LCA... to LCA Empty weight is less that M2K by a ton and M2K hose less fuel compared to LCA... in all in all it is the engine which has helped M2K a lot... 

sancho fuel tanks are good only for those countries that dont have Mid air refueller or if it is going to cover a distance such as US... while we are going to have lot of mid air refuellers that is why IAF has emphasized on increasing the internal fuel capacity of LCA Mk2 ... Mostly our fighters will go to end of Tibet or some where to the middle of entire pakistan.. so Internal fuel is more than enough to do the mission and return safely.... the need for Mid air refueller was felt only after kargil... i am not sure whether any MARS existed before kargil.... secondly target beyond that will be kicked using cruise missiles... i dont think it make any sense even for MKI to travel more than 1000KM during war time...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> sancho fuel tanks are good only for those countries that dont have Mid air refueller or if it is going to cover a distance such as US...
> ...secondly target beyond that will be kicked using cruise missiles... i dont think it make any sense even for MKI to travel more than 1000KM during war time...



Wrong, because A we will never have enough refuellers to refuel several 100s of fighters at the same time in a war, nor are external fuel tanks meant for range only, but also for more endurance. In CAP even with light A2A weapon loads, all our fighters carries at least a centerline fuel tank, especially the smaller once. Same will be the case with LCA MK1, or Mirage 2000. You cover the same area for a longer time when you have additional fuel, not to mention that things will be different again, if heavier A2G loads are added.
Btw, since when is India a small country? So to cover the size of India alone we need fighters with enough range and endurance, let alone to fly into enemy airspace where mid air refuelling is not available. Just compare with F16s of Singapore, or Israel and check how many fuel they normally carry.

Regarding missiles, that's a very simplistic way to think and the fact that we even want a nuclear capability for the fighters in IAF, although we have balistic missiles and with our 2nd strike policy, should tell you something else. Not to mention that we won't wast expensive and long range missile just to take out some bunkers, or infrastructure, that's why PGMs and stand off weapons are important for MMRCA.


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## SpArK




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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Wrong, because A we will never have enough refuellers to refuel several 100s of fighters at the same time in a war, nor are external fuel tanks meant for range only, but also for more endurance. In CAP even with light A2A weapon loads, all our fighters carries at least a centerline fuel tank, especially the smaller once. Same will be the case with LCA MK1, or Mirage 2000. You cover the same area for a longer time when you have additional fuel, not to mention that things will be different again, if heavier A2G loads are added.
> Btw, since when is India a small country? So to cover the size of India alone we need fighters with enough range and endurance, let alone to fly into enemy airspace where mid air refuelling is not available. Just compare with F16s of Singapore, or Israel and check how many fuel they normally carry.
> 
> Regarding missiles, that's a very simplistic way to think and the fact that we even want a nuclear capability for the fighters in IAF, although we have balistic missiles and with our 2nd strike policy, should tell you something else. Not to mention that we won't wast expensive and long range missile just to take out some bunkers, or infrastructure, that's why PGMs and stand off weapons are important for MMRCA.


 
sancho ..... MRTS is not only the option.... we have buddy refulling also... secondly before any Fighter entering into enemy territory with drop tank is a big disaster.. accepted or not most of them jettison before entering into the enemy air space... and covering the enemy space for longer time are those days dear... nowerdays weapons are developed in such a fashion that they strike the precise location with very less collateral damage.. all the loitering are doing by UAV's nowerdays to give the precise location... lot of strageis have been changed so is the requirements..

Missiles are not a simplistic thing dear... to say missile has to be more perfect that the fighter itself.. they are the one use for striking be it a air target , ground or ship... and striking the target with long distance cruise missiles (ALCM) is a reality you accept or not... every country are developing lot of strategies around it..... and capability to carry nuclear missiles by a fighter is a requirement only when SLBM are failures .. the fighters will be last effort but it wont be gurantee that it will be delivered to the target because enemy defence will be more tough for fighters to peneterate


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


>


 
hopefully we do it as soon as possible so that FOC is achieved quickly


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## angeldemon_007

> Can you give a source for point number 3. Only US has 2nd generation AESA. And the Gripen AESA is not by SAAB. Its a different company.


Its on SAAB website. Also F16 aesa is from Northrop Grumman, F18 aesa is from Raytheon, EF aesa is also from Selex Galileo same as Gripens which is an italian company, Rafale aesa is from Thales and mig35 aesa is from JSC Phazotron. What i am pointing is no actual producer of the fighter has produced aesa but a different company is providing it.



> We can also buy an AESA from Israel and fit it on LCA but we want to develop our own AESA for LCA.


Israel is not selling it to us and its an old news. If i am not wrong we can purchase it from any country except US but US companies offered aesa in 2007-08 but everything depends on their govt. but sometimes we are waiting for JV and sometimes we go solo. Best thing is we should acquire selex galileo because it has nice range of products.



> What do you mean by point number 4. Isn't BVR dependent on the radar and the AAM Range. So what's so unique about Gripen. You need to elaborate this point.


Sorry, by this i meant Gripen is offering maximum types of BVRs like mica and all. 



> Point No. 5. What do you mean by platform independent. Can you chance the American engine. If SAAB has said so can you give a source.


Engine is big thing, you cannot just go and change it like battery. But yeah others, you can fit russian, other european or US components on this unlike US and Russians which are built specifically for their own components.



> Point no. 6. LCA Naval will have a similar short take off.


Are you serious ??/ All naval fighter jets should have short take off. I am not talking about naval jets they are different from normal jets.



> They can incorporate some of those technologies into LCA. So no big deal.


Funny....



> Anyways for a large country like India this is not even a requirement.


Yeah for a country like India its really important specially in far areas if you find a road just land on this. Both Gripen and SH are pointing out this feature for sales although there are a couple of more important points but it still an important feature considering India. Also how many air baesa do we have in NE ?/ FYI we don't have enough....



> The only thing that Grippen has and LCA doesn't have is the IRST.


Are you living in fantasy lands ??/ We can also add that and we can also add that. Saala aese to...just purchase IRST from Selex and fit it in LCA mk2 or give then a contract to build IRST for LCA. 
FYI LCA mk2 design and features are already finalized nothing of the 5 things pointed above will be in LCA mk2, get over it. If ADA goes for mk3 then these features can be included in that but for now mk2 does not have any of the above features.



> Considering LCA Mk II is planned for 2016 and Gripen NG for 2017 I still can't see what's so great about Gripen.


I told you this before also that NG was going for operational clearance from Swedish AF while first test were going on in 2010. Afterthat it even participated in the test. If we don't give this project to SAAB then it will be delayed and get in Swedish AF by 2017 otherwise it will begin its production before. Similar delays are in many projects participating in MMRCA, all depends on the company which will win the contract.


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## angeldemon_007

> sure accepted NG has the best data link... but it doesnt mean LCA doesnt have.. and LCA will be very well integrated with AFNET which is important in a network centric warfare...


Good....i know this but i am talking about the best over here....Also for the sake of knowledge sharing, SAAB was the first company to integrate a data link into a fighter jet and we can learn from them.



> May not be a requirement or priority if not it would have been featured atleast we would have imported for sure..


 Yeah, i think thats why we are not going for aesa in lca mk2. Buddy IRST is an important feature if you want to make your fighter a 4++ gen like gripen.



> When AESA ready will eventually get into LCA.. right now it is predicted to take 5 yrs and will not be available when MK2 rolls out..


Yeah thats what i am saying....may be in future upgrades but right now LCA mk2 is not a match for Gripen NG.



> but once completed it will surely find its way into LCA.. as far as i know we are working on future generation AESA like CAPTOR


Isi liye to bana rahe hain bhai usey.....
Also i don't know what are their aims but right now they don't know whether they are going solo on this or will have a partner. If you any info on any development please share. I hope aesa is produced by by 2015. We could also join Russia to produce an aesa which might find a place in our 5th gen fighter AMCA also.



> but once completed it will surely find its way into LCA.. as far as i know we are working on future generation AESA like CAPTOR


What are talking man??/ BVR is beyond visual range missile and gripen offers maximum types of them like mica and all.



> it is our own stuff... so you can imagine more than that.. if we are not sactioned like sweden.. i bet we will have all tech what NG has posses


Yeah...that point was in comparison with other MMRCA and thats why in the end instead of 6 i said 5 features are not in lca mk2. You are right....



> accepted a design that LCA lacks.. but LCA has been optimized for Indian environment which is highly important


I doubt that point to support LCA's lack of features.



> You have to understand still LCA will be in lighter category not in the medium category of NG..


You are the first one. Everybody compares lca with gripen even in roles.



> As far as i am also concerned LCA Mk2 will be 4th gen .. Gripen is good no doubt but any platform is as good as it has to posses the PayLoad & armanents ....
> with MK2 we will have a good MTOW and good operational range and pay load.. weapons we can add at any time... yes some technologies like IRST and AESA will take time.. but will eventually get into LCA once they are ready .... You have to understand still LCA will be in lighter category not in the medium category of NG.. but still it can make the range and payload of NG.. yes technologies we lack but we will develop hopefully in a decade.. we are short of decade thats why I emphasis MMRCA is important..


Thats what i am saying....may be in mk3.


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## angeldemon_007

> When you compare the real difference of a possible MK2 and Gripen NG fighter, you have to compare the basic spec differences like, emptyweight, MTOW, payload, hardpoints, speed, TWR, wingloading, range...and if you do so, you will see how close LCA MK2 can be at the NG.


Yeah those things are comparable....Yeah but no new tech is being added in mk2 like aesa or IRST, its just like making right the things they have done wrong in the first place.
But features like aesa, IRST, BVR missiles, data links etc. defines your survivability during the war. These features are also important. But yeah operationally lca mk2 can meet the features of gripen.



> Then just make an AMCA tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, not a serial production fighter for several billions! You get the same, while paying less and keep the focus on LCA and FGFA.


Thats a nice idea...but i would still like if we go for AMCA but this time its a fanboy opinion. You are right about that.



> Why even fund AMCA if you don't want to use it in war?


Thats the point then you won't be spending that much like we plan right now.



> By pushing our responsibilities to foreign weapon makers(FGFA), we are only increasing technological gap between India and other countries. FGFA will not bring any R&D infrastructure into to India, other than few tokens. FGFA design will be fully done within Russia.


It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.


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## shaktiman2010

angeldemon_007 said:


> It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but *AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us* as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.


 
That's where I don't agree.

Basically what you are saying is, "If no country is ready to help us, we shouldn't even think of doing it ourselves. Because we are not capable of doing it".

Exactly that has been the line of thought all these decades in IAF and MoD.

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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.


 
there is enough learned people in india , you need not have to throw bullshit ..

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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> Good....i know this but i am talking about the best over here....Also for the sake of knowledge sharing, SAAB was the first company to integrate a data link into a fighter jet and we can learn from them.
> Yeah, i think thats why we are not going for aesa in lca mk2. Buddy IRST is an important feature if you want to make your fighter a 4++ gen like gripen.


.. No one doub abou SAAB's role on data links... i said we too have that now in LCA which will be integerated with a robust network of IAFNET to give more situal awareness... on IRST i said we will have once it is developed.. may be IAF doesnt need it on priority... if IAF demanded it would have been integerated is my argument.. IRST doesnt alone makes it 4++ and i am not saying LCA will make it to 4++ one



> Yeah thats what i am saying....may be in future upgrades but right now LCA mk2 is not a match for Gripen NG.


.. An important argument in this is Mk2 will have a good MTOW and range compared to NG.. may be a good pay load too as compared to NG... may be it will lack in some avionics but there are otherways it will compensate for it.. for IRST may be it will get the data from other fighter which is part of the formation..



> Isi liye to bana rahe hain bhai usey.....
> Also i don't know what are their aims but right now they don't know whether they are going solo on this or will have a partner. If you any info on any development please share. I hope aesa is produced by by 2015. We could also join Russia to produce an aesa which might find a place in our 5th gen fighter AMCA also.


... we are the one designing the radar.. but we are outsourced some parts to other for manufacturing as we dont have the facility here... we have already raise RFP for that.. and there is no update because of MMRCA drama.. if AESA is available by 2015 it will surely moulded inside LCA Mk2 without any delay... to say we have already developed AESA radars we are working on miniaturized one with some advanced technologies...



> What are talking man??/ BVR is beyond visual range missile and gripen offers maximum types of them like mica and all.


... what is the use of having different BVR's it is a mess and a headache... for LCA right now it is Derby but it is going to be astra for sure.. which has the range almost equal to Metoer



> Yeah...that point was in comparison with other MMRCA and thats why in the end instead of 6 i said 5 features are not in lca mk2. You are right....
> I doubt that point to support LCA's lack of features.


... my POV is if we need it and if we are not sanctioned what ever technology in NG would have been featured in LCA Mk2.. which actually is not the situation now because we have to develope it on our because of denial... secondly not every frame is ideal for everything... and what is the doubt.. it is optimized for Indian environment and Short take of and landing is not true for gripen in all sense.. especially it is fully loaded 




> You are the first one. Everybody compares lca with gripen even in roles.
> Thats what i am saying....may be in mk3.


... see LCA is still small compared to Gripen... even MK1 is almost able to carry decent payload and loiter more than Griphen.. it can carry the payload of gripen with the same fuel that Gripen is carrying... LCA can match all the roles of Gripen yes it doesnt have the avionics of Griphen

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## angeldemon_007

> Basically what you are saying is, "If no country is ready to help us, we shouldn't even think of doing it ourselves. Because we are not capable of doing it".


Sorry but thats not what i meant. We should definitely go for AMCA but its not me who is betting on, its our scientists. Just look at the time frame. Within a decade they will be developing a whole new fighter jet and that too 5th gen. Its not feasible. And i am saying that i doubt we will get critical techs from FGFA based on that article but this will cause delays as then we will have to develop all those techs from scratch and it took both US and Russia more than 2-3 decades to develop them and we will also need that much time. I am not judging anyone. If we take the same time as US did then our achievement will be far greater than US because then we will jump directly from LCA to a 5th gen fighter.



> here is enough learned people in india , you need not have to throw bullshit ..


Hey buddy, i am also indian and nothing was there in the text to hurt anybody feeling. Brahmos was a success and so will be FGFA. I didn't meant that we won't be able to make it but what i meant is it will take alot of time because it took both US and Russia more than 3 decades to build them. On the other hand our scientists without even getting started are thinking of developing it within a decade.
Just remember how Russia first decided about their 5th gen fighter then 3 designs came up and out of which Sukhoi design was selected. Same happened in US but nothing like this is happening in India. We happened to get the best design in the first time itself.
You guys are not thinking practically. Just don't be emotional for a minute and read it from an engineer point of view.



> on IRST i said we will have once it is developed..


I don't know why we don't have any program from this. I hope we get this through ToT.



> may be IAF doesnt need it on priority... if IAF demanded it would have been integerated is my argument


The problem with them is they don't want desi products and hence they don't show interest in defining what they want. I don't think IAF even set up any specification for mk2. Now when it will be launched they will again cry.



> IRST doesnt alone makes it 4++ and i am not saying LCA will make it to 4++ one


Well it does not but its an important tech and found in all 4++ gen fighter. So inorder to be beat your enemy you should have it just like aesa.



> what is the use of having different BVR's it is a mess and a headache... for LCA right now it is Derby but it is going to be astra for sure.. which has the range almost equal to Metoer


No by range i meant, different types of that is it is compatible with US and All european BVR missiles. Test bed for meteor was gripen itself so it will be the first to receive it.



> An important argument in this is Mk2 will have a good MTOW and range compared to NG.. may be a good pay load too as compared to NG...


No it will never be better than Gripen. So much is not even needed on LCA. I don't know about t/w ratio but i think there it might be ahead.



> for IRST may be it will get the data from other fighter which is part of the formation..


I don't know what are their plan but they should answer this through one or the other way.



> we are the one designing the radar.. but we are outsourced some parts to other for manufacturing as we dont have the facility here... we have already raise RFP for that.. and there is no update because of MMRCA drama.. if AESA is available by 2015 it will surely moulded inside LCA Mk2 without any delay... to say we have already developed AESA radars we are working on miniaturized one with some advanced technologies...


They were actually looking for a partner. They were about to chose between elta and eads. but no news and thats why i asked whether we are going solo because there some unconfirmed reports about going solo also. Also you cannot just change radar at the end of completion. AESA is not finding its place in mk2 until the next upgrade.



> my POV is if we need it and if we are not sanctioned what ever technology in NG would have been featured in LCA Mk2.. which actually is not the situation now because we have to develope it on our because of denial... secondly not every frame is ideal for everything... and what is the doubt.. it is optimized for Indian environment and Short take of and landing is not true for gripen in all sense.. especially it is fully loaded


Agreed...



> LCA can match all the roles of Gripen yes it doesnt have the avionics of Griphen


It can do all the roles of gripen but with not with as much precision and success as Gripen will do because LCA is not meant for those roles.


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## MST

Since there are too many points i have replied within quotes in bold. 



angeldemon_007 said:


> Its on SAAB website. Also F16 aesa is from Northrop Grumman, F18 aesa is from Raytheon, EF aesa is also from Selex Galileo same as Gripens which is an italian company, Rafale aesa is from Thales and mig35 aesa is from JSC Phazotron. What i am pointing is no actual producer of the fighter has produced aesa but a different company is providing it.
> *Saab signed the deal for AESA only in 2009. And if you look at the development cycle for AESA you will realise that its a big risk just like its in the case of Euro Fighter is. I give high marks on this point to F18 and Rafale. *
> 
> Israel is not selling it to us and its an old news. If i am not wrong we can purchase it from any country except US but US companies offered aesa in 2007-08 but everything depends on their govt. but sometimes we are waiting for JV and sometimes we go solo. Best thing is we should acquire selex galileo because it has nice range of products.
> *I can't comment on DRDO will do. But just like SAAB we can also tie up the Salex Galileo for AESA for LCA as you said. *
> 
> Sorry, by this i meant Gripen is offering maximum types of BVRs like mica and all.
> *Isn't missile integration dependent on RAdar and its source codes (i am not considering heavy duty ones here which LCA can't lift) . So we can have the same set of missiles on LCA as well if we purchase them from the vendors *
> 
> Engine is big thing, you cannot just go and change it like battery. But yeah others, you can fit russian, other european or US components on this unlike US and Russians which are built specifically for their own components.
> *Exactly you can't change engine just like that. So platform is not as flexible as you mentioned.*
> 
> Are you serious ??/ All naval fighter jets should have short take off. I am not talking about naval jets they are different from normal jets.
> 
> 
> Funny....
> *Why is it funny. You mean knowledge gained from creating one aircraft can't be transferred to another.*
> 
> Yeah for a country like India its really important specially in far areas if you find a road just land on this. Both Gripen and SH are pointing out this feature for sales although there are a couple of more important points but it still an important feature considering India. Also how many air baesa do we have in NE ?/ FYI we don't have enough....
> *No its not. The whole reason why Gripen has this requirement was because Sweden, a small country, had a threat that its air strips may be overrun by Soviets. So keep the resistance they wanted to land and take off from roads. In case of India this is neither required nor feasible. You can't land an aircraft in a far flung area on a one lane rickety roads in India (This is not sweden ). And how are you planning to refuel and rearm the aircraft on road. We don't have any such contingency. Also India is too huge for a enemy country to overrun. So we will always have air strip to land an air craft. And given a choice of air strip and road no sane pilot will chose a road. *
> 
> Are you living in fantasy lands ??/ We can also add that and we can also add that. Saala aese to...just purchase IRST from Selex and fit it in LCA mk2 or give then a contract to build IRST for LCA.
> FYI LCA mk2 design and features are already finalized nothing of the 5 things pointed above will be in LCA mk2, get over it. If ADA goes for mk3 then these features can be included in that but for now mk2 does not have any of the above features.
> *If you know anything about LCA by now the only thing thats not constant is its design features. Need I say more *
> 
> 
> I told you this before also that NG was going for operational clearance from Swedish AF while first test were going on in 2010. Afterthat it even participated in the test. If we don't give this project to SAAB then it will be delayed and get in Swedish AF by 2017 otherwise it will begin its production before. Similar delays are in many projects participating in MMRCA, all depends on the company which will win the contract.
> *Gripen NG right now is a prototype. A Technology Demonstrator. Just like the LCA TD flew in 2001 and got IOC in 2011. There can be serious delays here. Why do you want to give this project to SAAB and put 12 Billion dollars of Indian Taxpayer money at risk. If you want to risk that money anyways then give it back to Indians (LCA) instead of Swedish people. On the contrary there are atleast 2 planes (with little risk) that fit the requirement with AESA (F18 and Rafale) so why not buy them? *

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## shaktiman2010

angeldemon_007 said:


> Sorry but thats not what i meant. *We should definitely go for AMCA but its not me who is betting on, its our scientists. *Just look at the time frame. Within a decade they will be developing a whole new fighter jet and that too 5th gen. *Its not feasible. *



You are saying same thing even now, - "We shouldn't do it because it can take time, we should take easier escape route of passing the responsibility of R&D, to foreign firms"

*I disagree with your negative & suicidal approach.* If we had been thinking like you, then we wouldn't even had attempted LCA and we wouldn't even be in a position today, to contribute anything in FGFA.

If we don't start AMCA now, we will loose valuable time and technology gap between home-based and foreign aerospace R&D efforts will go up.

LCA initiative has put in place basic building blocks within the country, for taking up any kind of fighter aircraft R&D.

AMCA is the next logical thing to do and its the best thing that Indians will be doing in this decade. Its more important than even FGFA, in strategic terms.


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## jha

A little something about LCA Mk-II..

Ignis Aerospace Partners With Lectromec, Radel On Aircraft Wiring

Ignis Aerospace is partnering with Lectromec of the U.S. and India&#8217;s Radel to analyze the safety and effectiveness of aircraft wiring systems.

_Developing or maintaining a wiring system involves more than just ensuring all aircraft components are connected; it is also about minimizing the number and weight of wires, addressing routing needs and determining co-location and arc hazards._

_&#8220;A cohesive examination of these areas can ensure the safety and reliability of the aircraft systems,&#8221; Raj V. Gopal, Ignis vice president for sales and marketing, tells Aviation Week. &#8220;This advanced analysis is now available through the Radel, Ignis and Lectromec partnership.&#8221;_

*Ignis is already working on the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 2 in association with India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency.*

&#8220;This partnership significantly improves the knowledge and experience of each of our companies,&#8221; says Michael Traskos, president of Lectromec. &#8220;I believe that this will be able to provide a comprehensive engineering, design and risk assessment [capability] for both new and existing aircraft.&#8221;

Radel has been providing design and manufacturing services to aerospace organizations in India and possesses expertise in aircraft systems, electrical harnesses, test equipment, obsolescence management and other related disciplines.

Lectromec specializes in the field of aircraft wiring testing; electrical wire interconnection systems, risk assessments, wire degradation analysis services, research, and design software for carrying out such analysis.

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## sancho

jha said:


> A little something about LCA Mk-II..


 
Finally the US agreed to some coop for the Tejas, after denying it so often before.


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## saumyasupratik

How will the Tejas Mk.II Compare with the Korean F-50?

Both are of more or less same weight and are generally designed to fullfill the same role.Although Tejas Mk.II has a more powerful engine.We might see a different more powerful power plant in F-50.

F-50


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## tallboy123

^^wat is FA-50 total payload capacity????


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## saumyasupratik

tallboy123 said:


> ^^wat is FA-50 total payload capacity????


 
Not know yet.The empty weight and MTOW of T-50 on which it's based on is similar to the Tejas Mk.I.

The FA-50 will have first flight by late 2011 or early 2012.By 2013 RKAF needs 60 of these to replace their old F-5E Tiger's and F-4E Phantom's.


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## tallboy123

^^ i think RKAF already has 60 of them..
it had its first flight in 2002...
just check Wiki


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## saumyasupratik

tallboy123 said:


> ^^ i think RKAF already has 60 of them..
> it had its first flight in 2002...
> just check Wiki


 
That's for T-50 not FA-50.T-50 is the most basic variant of these family of aircraft.FA-50 is the light multirole all weather fighter aircraft designed in the lines of JF-17 and LCA.

https://www.koreaaero.com/english/business/t50_04.asp


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## saumyasupratik

T-50 is basically an advanced trainer like M-346, Yak-130 and BAE Hawk.

While FA-50 is a light multirole fighter like Tejas and JF-17.


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## piyalghoshal

People are so very impatient in india.........we should understand that to reach the level of americans or the western counterparts in reaching there will take the same time that was taken by them in the starting as expertise is not a thing to be achived in one year..........lets give our engineers and scientist some time as this machines are 'lambi race ka ghora' and fuill bear fruit once they are fully tested.......as the jets are now with the air force the speed of testing will improve drasticly and hence the FOC is not much far i think.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

* LCA-Tejas has completed 1606 Test Flights successfully. (16-Mar-2011).*

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-204,PV3-272,LSP1-64,LSP2-170,PV5-30,LSP3-35,LSP4-34,LSP5-17)


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## JPUSINVNSCK

well,what kind of the engine will used for this bird? Is that US general engine? I only know the escape system will use my country's one.BTW,it looks a little bit weird and ugly and i prefer rafale .


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## BlueDot_in_Space

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> well,what kind of the engine will used for this bird? Is that US general engine? I only know the escape system will use my country's one.BTW,it looks a little bit weird and ugly and i prefer rafale .



F414IN engines from US will be used. Yes initial prototype used British Martin-Baker ejection seat, but now ARDE has developed an ejection seat locally for the fighter. Also, ARDE created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker. 

Its a fighter not a model for catwalk on the ramp. If you want breathtaking looks, kindly google kareena kapoor or Sonakshi sinha.


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## JPUSINVNSCK

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> F414IN engines from US will be used. Yes initial prototype used British Martin-Baker ejection seat, but now ARDE has developed an ejection seat locally for the fighter. Also, ARDE created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker.
> 
> Its a fighter not a model for catwalk on the ramp. If you want breathtaking looks, kindly google kareena kapoor or Sonakshi sinha.


 
I dont see those are name for airplane right? And how was the function of the tejas?I think it can par with the mig21.Lastly,does it use aesa?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> I dont see those are name for airplane right? And how was the function of the tejas?I think it can par with the mig21.Lastly,does it use aesa?


 
Its full capabilities will be available after 2012, once its full flight envelope has been opened up. Then It will be comparable to JAS 39C (gripen). LCA mK2 will be comparable to gripen NG. No india doesnt have aesa technology for fighter aircraft use. DRDO lab is working on aesa radar for a fighter. In future, lca will be upgraded with aesa radars.


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## khatarnak gunda

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> I dont see those are name for airplane right? And how was the function of the tejas?I think it can par with the mig21.Lastly,does it use aesa?


 
tejas is there to replace mig21. so anything better than it, is good. you don't have to worry about its look, we, indians, are here for it.
AND YES, HOW MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD OPERATE FIGHTER AIRCRAFTS WITH AESA RADAR? *DOES YOUR COUNTRY OPERATE ONE*? Only USA has manufactured matured AESA radar. no one else in the world. afaik many are trying to make, testing or designing.

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## kish

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> F414IN engines from US will be used. Yes initial prototype used British Martin-Baker ejection seat, but now ARDE has developed an ejection seat locally for the fighter. Also, ARDE created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker.
> 
> Its a fighter not a model for catwalk on the ramp. If you want breathtaking looks, kindly google kareena kapoor or Sonakshi sinha.


 

if u will look with my eyes,, tejas is more beautifull then kareena and sonakshi ,,, 

so .. is Tejas already using new ejection seat??
what is line-charged canopy severance system?


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^Go through the thread completely,You'll get your answers then.


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## Joe Shearer

Han Warrior said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Whats with the tejas being a mig-21+ plane? Means it is just a third gen aircraft. Apparently, you Air Marshal said it. Hmm....... it looks like a mirage rip-off.


 
The background is that we had a lot of Mirage 2000 in inventory, and the French were charging us a huge price for each. So we reverse engineered one, after bribing some French aeronautical engineers, and that's what you see. 

How did you notice the resemblance to the Mirage? You must have pretty good eyesight, or are you a trained aerospace engineer yourself?

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## Joe Shearer

Han Warrior said:


> Now, now, now.... there is no need to get so tight and don't overestimate Indian determination and ability. I don't think you even have the ability to decently reverse engineer a Mirage plane. I think it is just a Mig-21 with a mirage outer appearance and some new IMPORTED avionics or better yet some 'indigenous' avionics with almost 90% imported parts and 10% Indian 'system engineering' a.k.a ASSEMBLY.


 
Yeah, that's it, exactly. It was really difficult figuring out how to close the nose intake, and what to do instead. So the LCA was built with the nose cone that looks solid but is full of holes, for the air intake. This nose cone keeps falling off, so the pilots have been told not to go too fast or do unnecessary stunts. 

It's such a pleasure to discuss things with an expert who actually knows how these things are done.

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## Black Widow

Lot of Venom spitted here..  I would like to add some points...
1. In teh initial phase of LCA many parts were non indigenous, later they were replaced by indigenous one.... 
2. The ENgine is American, so whats problem?? The same engine used in Rafael, later french developed there engine... India too is developing, soon we will see its fitted into LCA.
3. @ defense minister comments on MiG21++. MiG21 is very potent Platform, A mach2 machine with BVR capability (BiSon) It is as deadly as some middle variant of F16. 
4. There are very few country who make fighter plane for them... Its very complicated technology


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## jha

Black Widow said:


> Lot of Venom spitted here..  I would like to add some points...
> 1. In teh initial phase of LCA many parts were non indigenous, later they were replaced by indigenous one....
> 2. The ENgine is American, so whats problem?? The same engine used in Rafael, later french developed there engine... India too is developing, soon we will see its fitted into LCA.
> 3. @ defense minister comments on MiG21++. MiG21 is very potent Platform, A mach2 machine with BVR capability (BiSon) It is as deadly as some middle variant of F16.
> 4. There are very few country who make fighter plane for them... Its very complicated technology



They all know this..They are just being themselves..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*LCA-Tejas has completed 1613 Test Flights successfully. (24-Mar-2011).*

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-170,PV5-31,LSP3-36,LSP4-34,LSP5-20)

old:LCA-Tejas has completed 1606 Test Flights successfully. (16-Mar-2011).


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## Han Patriot

Black Widow said:


> Lot of Venom spitted here..  I would like to add some points...
> 1. In teh initial phase of LCA many parts were non indigenous, later they were replaced by indigenous one....
> 2. The ENgine is American, so whats problem?? The same engine used in Rafael, later french developed there engine... India too is developing, soon we will see its fitted into LCA.
> 3. @ defense minister comments on MiG21++. MiG21 is very potent Platform, A mach2 machine with BVR capability (BiSon) It is as deadly as some middle variant of F16.
> 4. There are very few country who make fighter plane for them... Its very complicated technology



Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way. 

1) How many % is indigenous?
2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.


You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you? 

Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Han Warrior said:


> Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way.
> 
> 1) How many % is indigenous?
> 2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
> 3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
> 4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
> 5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
> 6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.
> 
> 
> You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you?
> 
> Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?



No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.

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## Black Widow

Han Warrior said:


> Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way.
> 
> 1) How many % is indigenous?
> 2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
> 3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
> 4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
> 5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
> 6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.
> 
> 
> You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you?
> 
> Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?


 
Nice Question... You Deserve an answer...
1. Do you know anything about military aviation... a simple Nut and Bolt need to be certified (Air worthiness). How many indian firm make airworthy nut bolts?? for making 5 LCA (TD1/2 PV1/2/3) do you think it's wise to set up a plant for nut-bolt?? or its ok to buy it from USA/Russia and when we will do mass production we can have our certified Nut_bolt???

2. The Ejection seat was frm Martin baker, which is replaced by Indian one (certified from Martin baker).
3. Engine and propulsion : As I said, once Kavery will be ready, it will be incorporated. \
4. Airframe : totally designed, verified and validated by DRDO/HAL.
5. Landing Gear : Originally imported, later developed and replaced by our one.
6. Flight control: After USA seized our machines and developed software, we start working on it in India and made it for us.
7. Avionics: HUD replaced by our one
8. Radar: We wrote our code on Israeli processor, later we replace it with more powerful radar.
9. EW suit: developed by India...
Now tell me what else you want???

3. Its not all of sudden... we spent time and then developed these EW suit.. and we do have electronic base, We do have stealth testing lab, we do have wind tunnels, we do have composite lab.
4. We don't do un-ethical work.. we don't believe in reverse engineering.. we do our research and if we face any problem , we seek help from expert, based on our reputation other countries provide us help... They know that we will not make cheap copy of their product and back-stab them...
5. Oops! what we are buying from china??? I think you misunderstood me as a pakistani citizen... we know quality of Chinese products.. 


and finally, LCA is not in testing phase... yes but it is in improvement phase... it will be improved till end of its life... LCA is formally inducted in IAF... IAF pilots are happy with this machine..

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## justanobserver

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
> We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.



He's not from Bhutan but a false flagger. People from Bhutan are not Hans 

Tshering22 can probably confirm his identity, since he's a bhutia

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## blackops

Han Warrior said:


> Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way.
> 
> 1) How many % is indigenous?
> 2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
> 3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
> 4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
> 5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
> 6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.
> 
> 
> You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you?
> 
> Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?


 
point 5 and 6 we are not damn chinese who steal tech from americans and europeans who make copies of su 27 reverse engineering every thing making cheap quality products


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## tallboy123

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
> We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.


 
he is not from buthan,just a flase flagger..
Dont chage ur opinion on buthan..its a peaceful and friendly nation to india


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## Han Patriot

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
> We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.


 
Friend,

F-16 is a gen 4 aircraft while Mig-21 is a gen-2 aircraft... you dare to even compare that? OMG. It's like saying my bicycle is cool because Ravi changed his Honda to a Harley.

You are saying LCA is a gen 4.5 aircraft after your own Air Marshall admitted it is a Mig-21+ aircraft? And how did you get the 80% figure? IIT statistics? Let me get this staight....so basically you can't make bolts and nuts for a plane, no electronic industrial base, no advanced composites base, no research nor reverse engineering capability and yet you can produce a 80% gen 4.5 plane that is more capable that a gen 4 plane which is basically F-16?

It seems India has got alot of mouth power. Gross national happiness? Hey, you can't even compare to Bhutan OK. Ask those hungry slum kids if they are happy when they are starving.


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Friend,
> 
> F-16 is a gen 4 aircraft while Mig-21 is a gen-2 aircraft... you dare to even compare that? OMG. It's like saying my bicycle is cool because Ravi changed his Honda to a Harley.


 
You still dont know which block of F 16 belongs to which generation...nor do you know what is the difference between a MiG 21 FL and a bis and bison. 

Let me ask you one question...can you tell me in detail which parts of the LCA are non-indigenous or a non JV....please go ahead and I will clarify your doubts. Other than the engine.

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## kingdurgaking

Han Warrior said:


> Friend,
> 
> F-16 is a gen 4 aircraft while Mig-21 is a gen-2 aircraft... you dare to even compare that? OMG. It's like saying my bicycle is cool because Ravi changed his Honda to a Harley.
> 
> You are saying LCA is a gen 4.5 aircraft after your own Air Marshall admitted it is a Mig-21+ aircraft? And how did you get the 80% figure? IIT statistics? Let me get this staight....so basically you can't make bolts and nuts for a plane, no electronic industrial base, no advanced composites base, no research nor reverse engineering capability and yet you can produce a 80% gen 4.5 plane that is more capable that a gen 4 plane which is basically F-16?
> 
> It seems India has got alot of mouth power. Gross national happiness? Hey, you can't even compare to Bhutan OK. Ask those hungry slum kids if they are happy when they are starving.


 
List down list of points by comparing with F-16 and let me know where LCA is lacking??


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## Han Patriot

F-16 and LCA difference?

It's not in operation. =). Induct it, fly it in combat, then talk OK? No testing without bombs, testing without radars, or some future super duper radar, super duper missile.


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## Han Patriot

Why don't you tell me what is indigenous? It's your plane isn't it? I asked you a question and you ask me back. Pretty smart Indian logics. And I want prove!!! Where is it....I can say China produces the super duper avionics right? Better than F-16 too =)


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Why don't you tell me what is indigenous? It's your plane isn't it? I asked you a question and you ask me back. Pretty smart Indian logics. And I want prove!!! Where is it....I can say China produces the super duper avionics right? Better than F-16 too =)



Well you are the one who claimed it isn't we never did...so it is your duty to provide data and it's sources. Your Chinese logic thinks something then we aint responsible for that.

Well I dont care if you say that China can make better avionics then I dont care....but back up your claims with sources.


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## rockstarIN

Self delete..!!


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## satishkumarcsc

post-deleted


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## Joe Shearer

I really have a problem with this thread.

My problem is with justanobserver, blackops, satishkumarcsc, Karthic Sri and rockstar, and the other Indians (older members, not newbies like SR 71 Blackbird, Black Widow) who are reacting to Han Warrior. You seem to have let this clown get under your skin, and he now pulls the rope and you jump every time he pulls the rope. Why?

He's just joined this month; he has a legitimate excuse, besides being a suicide troll, which is that he wasn't around when details about the LCA were presented. What excuse do you others have? 

Let's take a look.

justanobserver - August 2010
blackops - December 2010
satishkumarcsc - November 2008
Karthic Sri - April 2010
rockstar - August 2010

SR 71 Blackbird and Black Widow just joined, they can't be blamed for anything but the same thing as Han Warrior, inexcusable laziness and not looking up past threads. But what about you other folks? 

You were around when all these points were discussed threadbare. You were around when references were given, and even pictures of wind-tunnels were uploaded, because someone got emotional and decided to respond whole-heartedly; unnecessarily, I might add, for reasons that should be obvious.

Just because he asks a smart question that he thinks doesn't have a legitimate answer, does our reality change? Do you really think that the control system laws, the basic structural design, the design and manufacture of composites, the avionics, the landing gear, even the tyres are not understood, and his questioning them will put their local manufacture and supply at risk? Why don't you know that these answers have each and every one been provided, why are you making him laugh at you by asking counter-questions instead of answering him calmly, factually, and ultimately, dismissively?

I don't think it is fair not to know. It's been answered precisely and to the point before. Please, guys, do your homework. And please remember that trolls of this kind are best answered either by ignoring them, which I was doing, truth to tell, or by giving them every bit of information that they ask for, and nailing their silly statements based on which they try to disprove points that you have made. It is not an option to answer in the short or long form of 'Sez who?' He will then turn around and say that you don't know, you can't provide facts, and so it's clear you have no answer.

And there isn't any point in providing the answers to his questions, simple though they are. Then for all time to come, confronted by a dreadful bore, you will then turn again to somebody in the forum who's been there before, shrug your soldiers, ask that old f**t, and give up thinking and learning on your own.

Grow up, guys, or play at home.



Han Warrior said:


> Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way.
> 
> 1) How many % is indigenous?
> 2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
> 3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
> 4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
> 5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
> 6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.
> 
> 
> You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you?
> 
> Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?


 


SR 71 Blackbird said:


> No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
> We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.


 


Black Widow said:


> Nice Question... You Deserve an answer...
> 1. Do you know anything about military aviation... a simple Nut and Bolt need to be certified (Air worthiness). How many indian firm make airworthy nut bolts?? for making 5 LCA (TD1/2 PV1/2/3) do you think it's wise to set up a plant for nut-bolt?? or its ok to buy it from USA/Russia and when we will do mass production we can have our certified Nut_bolt???
> 
> 2. The Ejection seat was frm Martin baker, which is replaced by Indian one (certified from Martin baker).
> 3. Engine and propulsion : As I said, once Kavery will be ready, it will be incorporated. \
> 4. Airframe : totally designed, verified and validated by DRDO/HAL.
> 5. Landing Gear : Originally imported, later developed and replaced by our one.
> 6. Flight control: After USA seized our machines and developed software, we start working on it in India and made it for us.
> 7. Avionics: HUD replaced by our one
> 8. Radar: We wrote our code on Israeli processor, later we replace it with more powerful radar.
> 9. EW suit: developed by India...
> Now tell me what else you want???
> 
> 3. Its not all of sudden... we spent time and then developed these EW suit.. and we do have electronic base, We do have stealth testing lab, we do have wind tunnels, we do have composite lab.
> 4. We don't do un-ethical work.. we don't believe in reverse engineering.. we do our research and if we face any problem , we seek help from expert, based on our reputation other countries provide us help... They know that we will not make cheap copy of their product and back-stab them...
> 5. Oops! what we are buying from china??? I think you misunderstood me as a pakistani citizen... we know quality of Chinese products..
> 
> 
> and finally, LCA is not in testing phase... yes but it is in improvement phase... it will be improved till end of its life... LCA is formally inducted in IAF... IAF pilots are happy with this machine..


 


justanobserver said:


> He's not from Bhutan but a false flagger. People from Bhutan are not Hans
> 
> Tshering22 can probably confirm his identity, since he's a bhutia


 


blackops said:


> point 5 and 6 we are not damn chinese who steal tech from americans and europeans who make copies of su 27 reverse engineering every thing making cheap quality products


 


Han Warrior said:


> Friend,
> 
> F-16 is a gen 4 aircraft while Mig-21 is a gen-2 aircraft... you dare to even compare that? OMG. It's like saying my bicycle is cool because Ravi changed his Honda to a Harley.
> 
> You are saying LCA is a gen 4.5 aircraft after your own Air Marshall admitted it is a Mig-21+ aircraft? And how did you get the 80% figure? IIT statistics? Let me get this staight....so basically you can't make bolts and nuts for a plane, no electronic industrial base, no advanced composites base, no research nor reverse engineering capability and yet you can produce a 80% gen 4.5 plane that is more capable that a gen 4 plane which is basically F-16?
> 
> It seems India has got alot of mouth power. Gross national happiness? Hey, you can't even compare to Bhutan OK. Ask those hungry slum kids if they are happy when they are starving.


 


Han Warrior said:


> OO ok...now you admit you can't even make a simple air certified bolt and nut for planes? Hey we are talking about a future 1000s of planes to be procured, and you don't think setting up these bases is important. More like incompetence isn't it? You think it is easy to make air grade components? Testing procedure? Manpower to be trained? Facilities? And you claim it is indigenous when you can't even make the most basic component?
> 
> Please provide evidence that the seat is fully made in India or assembled? The pressure mechanism to eject the seat...where is it made? Or maybe the fabric for the seat is made in India? The spring maybe?
> 
> Kaveri, oo please, start talking when it is ready. Even then, how many parts are made in India? Prove it.
> 
> Air frame, you mean the steel frame? What about composites? Where is it made? Evidence? How does it compare to Chinese composites?
> 
> Again, landing gear, the mechanism for landing, the heat resistant tires, wher is it made? Prove.
> 
> Software? Hey my pino boys can write software too man. Some of the best programmers are in Tsinghua University. Just because you have alot of outsourcing and call centers doesn't mean you can write flight control codes man. Prove
> 
> Again, HUD, where is your optics industrial base. In China, we are one of the largest producers of advance optics for cameras.
> 
> Can you teach me to write codes to a microprocessor? LOL. Isreali processor? Since when did Israel produce microprocessors. Most planes use old Intel chips which is more than enough to power modern avionics. We are not talking about playstation here.
> 
> Yea, all these super duper microelectronics hardware needs a fab >> so where exactly is the FAB in India? OO now you have a stealth base too? What super duper plane is developed ther? Is it flying yet like the J-20? Hmm, funny we Chinese didn't announced it at all....but all of a sudden a stealth plane flew.
> 
> Good you dun do unethical job while the Russians and American did it to the Germans. Bravo!!! So you seek 'help'? What sort of help? Like maybe giving $ for a component? Gving $ to produce something? Or giving $ for 'consultancy? In the end no true talents are trained?
> 
> You didn't buy from China. BACK BEFORE 1998, you had to buy enriched uranium from us, nuclear grade magnetic ring from us because you can't produce it. You military bought an encrytion device from us. Check it online, it's well known. You buy billions and yes I mean billions of supecritical power equipment from us, advanced 3G telecom equipments and again in the BILLIONS.
> 
> You know, people with mental disabilities are also always happy! LOL


 


Han Warrior said:


> F-16 and LCA difference?
> 
> It's not in operation. =). Induct it, fly it in combat, then talk OK? No testing without bombs, testing without radars, or some future super duper radar, super duper missile.


 


satishkumarcsc said:


> Well you are the one who claimed it isn't we never did...so it is your duty to provide data and it's sources. Your Chinese logic thinks something then we aint responsible for that.
> 
> Well I dont care if you say that China can make better avionics then I dont care....but back up your claims with sources.

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## piyalghoshal

I want to add a point in this whole discussion is that 'is it a good decision to make everything indigenously' as it decreases and sometimes blocks the whole project and also it is not a very economic decision.As far I think the way India choose is a better way as if smthng is lagging behind as per the timeline import it , continue to develop it and replace it when it is ready as simple as that.There is no compulsion of making a 100% indigenous jet.Yes it is always good to have one but the thing is that making smthing out of scratch without the same amount of infrastructure ,money,freedom that our neighbor enjoys is an appreciable job.This question is very frequent from the members of other countries so that's why I thought to express my views on it.Yes some parts in lca is not Indian but we have to understand it needs time to develop a work of art tech.We should keep our faith in it and I am sure it will sour the tooth of enemies in future wars.


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## farhan_9909

why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?


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## ganimi kawa

farhan_9909 said:


> why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?


 
Both of them are tailless deltas but that is where the similarity ends!


The Mirage is a simple tailless delta.

















While the Tejas is a *"cranked"* tailless delta.




















Also, please check the pics of the two crafts provided and notice the difference in the area where the wing meets the fuselage. That will give you some idea about what a "cranked" delta is.


There are many other differences between the M2K and LCA. For now, this should suffice.

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## Han Patriot

This is the LCA





This is the M2K.



 Quite different from what you drew.


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## Han Patriot

> IN Sanskrit, tejas, the name given to India&#8217;s indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA), means brilliance. On Monday, the Tejas was finally accorded an initial operational clearance, but this tells only part of the story. The otherwise landmark event is the culmination of almost 27 years of work marked, however, more by unacceptable time and cost overruns &#8211; from an initial ` 560 crore to a staggering ` 17,269 crore.
> 
> The Tejas, which is meant to replace the antiquated Soviet-origin MiG-21 fleet, is still far from induction into the Indian Air Force, which most disconcertingly has been grappling with declining fighter squadron strength. As of now, weapon systems have not been fully integrated into this aircraft and, so, its operational induction into the air force is not expected until end-2013. Like most other high-end technology projects, the LCA too is a microcosm of all that is wrong with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with the nature of constraints and challenges in which it functions. The Tejas may have been built in India, but its key components are mostly either American or built with US assistance. It is powered by the US supplied General Electric 404 engine while the flight control system has been developed by Lockheed Martin, which again is an American company. India&#8217;s plan to develop the indigenous Kaveri aero-engine for the Tejas has, after spending 20 years and ` 2,830 crore, been an effort in vain. As a consequence, the DRDO is now looking for foreign partners to jointly develop an aero-engine. As of now Mk-II of the Tejas is to be powered by the American GE-414 engine, which again, is expected to fructify only by December 2014.
> 
> By the time the Tejas enters squadron service, it is expected to end up being, at best, a medium-end fighter and somewhat behind the times. As the air chief uncomplimentingly put it, the Tejas will be a &#8220;MiG-21 plus-plus&#8221;. Surely there is need for the DRDO to exercise greater tejas in executing their projects if India, an aspiring power, has to attain a credible degree of self-reliance in weapon technology




This is from Tribune India. So basically a Mig-21+. Hey I am using Indian sources here.

4 billion USD for 25 years, you get a aircraft that is forever in testing stage made with x% of imported components. Hell, I can see why Chandrayaan has got 50% foreign equipment and I am talking about the main instruments, what about the other components. One simple question where is the simple solar cell made? =)

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## rcrmj

farhan_9909 said:


> why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?


 
because the French Dassault Aviation is the officially listed consultant of the project.


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## Han Patriot

Hell, I don't even think they have one consultant. I heard they had a (Swedish?) consultant for composites, Lockheed for controls.... you think the paint is made in India? LOL. And they are pretty good at aconyms, LCA, LCH, MCA, MMRCA........ LOL. Funny people.

I think next thy are gonna have ANAL ( *A*dvanced *N*ext generation *A*ircraft for *L*ong range operations)


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## Joe Shearer

piyalghoshal said:


> I want to add a point in this whole discussion is that 'is it a good decision to make everything indigenously' as it decreases and sometimes blocks the whole project and also it is not a very economic decision.As far I think the way India choose is a better way as if smthng is lagging behind as per the timeline import it , continue to develop it and replace it when it is ready as simple as that.There is no compulsion of making a 100% indigenous jet.Yes it is always good to have one but the thing is that making smthing out of scratch without the same amount of infrastructure ,money,freedom that our neighbor enjoys is an appreciable job.This question is very frequent from the members of other countries so that's why I thought to express my views on it.Yes some parts in lca is not Indian but we have to understand it needs time to develop a work of art tech.We should keep our faith in it and I am sure it will sour the tooth of enemies in future wars.


 
The people whose names appear on aircraft types - Sukhoi, MiG, Mil, Antonov, Ilyushin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS - are known as systems integrators. They don't make planes in a factory where the nuts, bolts and composites are made; they call in assemblies, sub-assemblies and components from all over the world, subject to security and secrecy considerations, and put them together to a design. Sometimes, as in the case of the Russians, design and manufacture are separated, for greater integrity. Yes, the systems integrators and the designers, between them, retain the right to make changes in design and alterations and modifications, due to discoveries made during test flights, but this is the process. 

So you can gauge for yourself how ridiculous the entire agent provocateur post was. 

Tyres have been made in Dunlop Sahaganj from the 50s; the legendary Suranjan Das' son was a Dunlop employee supervising smooth supply of these to HAL from the 70s onwards. Avionics, with which I have personal involvement, has been indigenous from the 70s and 80s onwards; the brilliant account of the DARIN conversion by T K Sen is a gripping story by itself. Composites were developed under the leadership of the technical genius Krishnadas Nair, whose lectures on composite technology drew packed audiences; his open lectures usually had a distinguished overseas delegation in attendance. The composite manufacturing effort was developed within HAL while he was Managing Director of the Bangalore Complex, well before his Chairmanship. Autocrat though he was, nothing should be subtracted from his technical contributions to the nation. The landing gear and its anti-skid braking software was developed by HAL engineers working within the ADA/ADE; my successor as CEO in the avionics firm was lead programmer for the ABS software. 

I could go on and on, if not for the fact that we have gone into all this before. The crowning glory, however, was the writing of the flight control laws. It has led to a smooth, mellow flying machine which each and every one flying it has fallen in love with from the first flight onwards. Contrary to half-baked reports, the involvement of Lockheed-Martin was limited to intense technical discussions with a full team of Indian engineers, who started developing the control laws. They were locked out of their work-places literally at an hour's notice on the clamping of sanctions. All the work for the first version, which a member of the team says was slightly rough at the edges, typical for version 1.0 efforts, was left behind. The team went to work again from first principles, and the result is flying now. So much for Lockheed-Martin having built the control laws. For those who have read 'The Mythical Man-month', this illustrates the maxim that in a large software project, the first step is to make one to throw away.

There were failures. The worst was Kaveri, which was crippled by sanctions. Everything had been built around the supply of certain critical components. I am not sure that I should even talk about it. Another setback was the AESA radar development. And that was about it. For a ground-up effort, this was magnificent. Some tuppenny-ha'penny wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate should not cause such a storm of reaction unless we are ourselves actually ignorant about what happened. I am quite irritated at the slavish efforts still being made to try and convince those who have clearly set themselves up to have some fun at the expense of our more combustible members.

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## perplexed

Han Warrior said:


> Hell, I don't even think they have one consultant. I heard they had a (Swedish?) consultant for composites, Lockheed for controls.... you think the paint is made in India? LOL. And they are pretty good at aconyms, LCA, LCH, MCA, MMRCA........ LOL. Funny people.
> 
> I think next thy are gonna have ANAL ( *A*dvanced *N*ext generation *A*ircraft for *L*ong range operations)


 
No, next we will construct LUND ( *L*ight *U*ndersea *N*aval *D*ock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast


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## jha

perplexed said:


> No, next we will construct LUND ( *L*ight *U*ndersea *N*aval *D*ock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast


 
Bhai Jaan samhal ke...use iska matlab bhi nahi pata hoga..


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## Manas

@Joe Shearer

why IAF has been so figgity about LCA ??


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## BATMAN

Manas said:


> @Joe Shearer
> 
> why IAF has been so figgity about LCA ??


 
They like Hornets more.


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## Manas

BATMAN said:


> They like Hornets more.



One reason i can give straightaway is we Indians (can include Pakistanis also) love fohran maal.


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?


 
Because both are single engine, light weight, delta wing fighters, fullstop!

Crossposting from saumyasupratiks post in the LCA picture thread to show the clear differences to Mirage 2000:








IAF has good experience with delta wing design, be it with Mig 21s, or Mirage 2000s, that's why a similar wing design for LCA was very logical and why Dassault (as one of the moste experienced companies with this design) was added as a consulting partner in the the early design phase. 




ganimi kawa said:


> The Mirage is a simple tailless delta.
> 
> While the Tejas is a *"cranked"* tailless delta.


 

From DRDO:



> The LCA integrates modern design concepts and state-of-the-art technologies such as *tailless compound delta
> platform* with relaxed static stability fly by wire flight control system and advanced composite materials for
> structures. In addition open architecture avionics with advanced glass cockpit, hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS),
> head-up display, active matrix multi-function displays and helmet-mounted display are integrated.



http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb 2011 .pdf

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## piyalghoshal

Joe Shearer said:


> The people whose names appear on aircraft types - Sukhoi, MiG, Mil, Antonov, Ilyushin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS - are known as systems integrators. They don't make planes in a factory where the nuts, bolts and composites are made; they call in assemblies, sub-assemblies and components from all over the world, subject to security and secrecy considerations, and put them together to a design. Sometimes, as in the case of the Russians, design and manufacture are separated, for greater integrity. Yes, the systems integrators and the designers, between them, retain the right to make changes in design and alterations and modifications, due to discoveries made during test flights, but this is the process.
> Can you please sir throw some light on AESA development?
> So you can gauge for yourself how ridiculous the entire agent provocateur post was.
> 
> Tyres have been made in Dunlop Sahaganj from the 50s; the legendary Suranjan Das' son was a Dunlop employee supervising smooth supply of these to HAL from the 70s onwards. Avionics, with which I have personal involvement, has been indigenous from the 70s and 80s onwards; the brilliant account of the DARIN conversion by T K Sen is a gripping story by itself. Composites were developed under the leadership of the technical genius Krishnadas Nair, whose lectures on composite technology drew packed audiences; his open lectures usually had a distinguished overseas delegation in attendance. The composite manufacturing effort was developed within HAL while he was Managing Director of the Bangalore Complex, well before his Chairmanship. Autocrat though he was, nothing should be subtracted from his technical contributions to the nation. The landing gear and its anti-skid braking software was developed by HAL engineers working within the ADA/ADE; my successor as CEO in the avionics firm was lead programmer for the ABS software.
> 
> I could go on and on, if not for the fact that we have gone into all this before. The crowning glory, however, was the writing of the flight control laws. It has led to a smooth, mellow flying machine which each and every one flying it has fallen in love with from the first flight onwards. Contrary to half-baked reports, the involvement of Lockheed-Martin was limited to intense technical discussions with a full team of Indian engineers, who started developing the control laws. They were locked out of their work-places literally at an hour's notice on the clamping of sanctions. All the work for the first version, which a member of the team says was slightly rough at the edges, typical for version 1.0 efforts, was left behind. The team went to work again from first principles, and the result is flying now. So much for Lockheed-Martin having built the control laws. For those who have read 'The Mythical Man-month', this illustrates the maxim that in a large software project, the first step is to make one to throw away.
> 
> There were failures. The worst was Kaveri, which was crippled by sanctions. Everything had been built around the supply of certain critical components. I am not sure that I should even talk about it. Another setback was the AESA radar development. And that was about it. For a ground-up effort, this was magnificent. Some tuppenny-ha'penny wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate should not cause such a storm of reaction unless we are ourselves actually ignorant about what happened. I am quite irritated at the slavish efforts still being made to try and convince those who have clearly set themselves up to have some fun at the expense of our more combustible members.


can u sir please throw some light on AESA development?what are the main problems it is facing and how much success we have achieved in this particular field.


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## Manticore

ganimi kawa said:


> Both of them are tailless deltas but that is where the similarity ends!
> 
> 
> The Mirage is a simple tailless delta.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the Tejas is a *"cranked"* tailless delta.




thats 'Cranked arrow' - similar to a compound delta, but with the trailing edge also kinked inwards. Trialled experimentally on the General Dynamics F-16XL. 

http://dc306.*******.com/img/s8-jwhsT/0.6235182629976099/gra6.PNG

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## Joe Shearer

Manas said:


> @Joe Shearer
> 
> why IAF has been so figgity about LCA ??


 
A purely personal opinion: they have always apprehended having their budgets cut off by another pacifist Minister for Defence, so they have always compromised between air superiority and strike. Unfortunately, the Mirage turned out to be a genuine multi-role aircraft, something that turns up once in a blue moon, something like the F4 might have been, fitted with cannon. As a result, they want every new aircraft to be the Mirage. Every new plane has to be a multi-role plane, never mind that the two roles are so wildly different. 

The LCA was planned as a light interceptor, the exact original role of the MiG21; while it was being developed, the IAF got jittery, thought it would replace all aircraft, including specialised ground attack planes (the Jaguars, for instance), and started building in specs which would meet those demands. In other words, they told the politicians, "If you want a plane that does everything, this is how it must perform. Can you get the boffins to make one that does all that? Then and only then can you replace all the types we have today with one LCA type tomorrow." 

This plane was never designed for ground attack or for interdiction or for deep strike; when nervous people started sticking on extra requirements, everything went for six. For one, load-carrying capacity had to be increased; the fuselage size was increased; all the original optimisation went for a toss; there was serious hard work that went into getting things back on trim, and it has just been achieved. There was a time three to five years ago when the IAF thought it wouldn't happen after all; everybody has suddenly woken up to the fact that actually the plane does all that was planned. 

Now they don't want DRDO and ADE in particular to get lazy, so from time to time, the Air Chief of the day makes a threatening announcement in public, saying that the plane still hasn't achieved full compliance. This is quite wrong and quite right at the same time; it is quite wrong because the Air Chiefs know very well that flight testing is a long-drawn out procedure, and everything is done incrementally, so that anomalies can be isolated to one factor, the one changed over the previous test (this is an exaggeration), so it will take time to meet every spec. requirement. It is quite right in that it serves as a reminder to the testing establishment that they must keep to the punishing time table or risk a delay. Nobody wants to think about the D word today.

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## Joe Shearer

piyalghoshal said:


> can u sir please throw some light on AESA development?what are the main problems it is facing and how much success we have achieved in this particular field.


 
I am a little reluctant to get into this. Some information is still classified; most is, actually, and I don't want to play chicken in a foreign publication. Suffice it to say that the most brilliant act of war in my opinion would be to hand over both LRDE and GTRE to Pakistan as a peace offering. Once that is done, we can concentrate all our military capability against China, and not have to worry about the western at all; not as far as their air force is concerned :-D


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## Agnostic_Indian

Joe Shearer said:


> I am a little reluctant to get into this. Some information is still classified; most is, actually, and I don't want to play chicken in a foreign publication. Suffice it to say that the most brilliant act of war in my opinion would be to hand over both LRDE and GTRE to Pakistan as a peace offering. Once that is done, we can concentrate all our military capability against China, and not have to worry about the western at all; not as far as their air force is concerned :-D


could you tell me what is LRDE and GTRE?


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## angeldemon_007

LRDE : Electronics and Radar Development Establishment. And yeah it starts with L so as to differentiate "Electrical" and "Electronic", the latter is abbreviated with the first letter of its Latin root (lektra). 

GTRE : Gas Turbine Research Establishment.

Both of them are DRDO laboratories. First one is meant for Radars and second one is meant for gas turbines.


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## Agnostic_Indian

@ joe. i got it LRDE is drdo lab for radar research and GTRE gas turbine research establishment..and you were just kidding right ?
*though i googled it thanks for angledemon for the post.


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## Joe Shearer

Agnostic_Indian said:


> @ joe. i got it LRDE is drdo lab for radar research and GTRE gas turbine research establishment..and you were just kidding right ?
> *though i googled it thanks for angledemon for the post.


 
eLectronic Research and Devt. Establishment, yes, that's correct, and GTRE too.

I was kidding that particular moment. Thinking too long about GTRE (LRDE has done some outstanding work at times) makes me think seriously about that proposition.


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## angeldemon_007

> *though i googled it thanks for angledemon for the post.


Well according to me, you shouldn't have written that post in the first place....


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## ganimi kawa

ANTIBODY said:


> thats 'Cranked arrow' - similar to a compound delta, but with the trailing edge also kinked inwards. Trialled experimentally on the General Dynamics F-16XL.
> 
> http://dc306.*******.com/img/s8-jwhsT/0.6235182629976099/gra6.PNG




I know! That is why I posted the pics so that the "cranked" part can be highlighted.

Apart from the obvious difference in the trailing edge, the Tejas wing has much more commonality with the F 16XL or the Viggen than Mirage 2000 AFA the working philosophy is concerned.

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## Agnostic_Indian

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well according to me, you shouldn't have written that post in the first place....


 
yes it's a bad habit..i will try to help myself.


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## Manticore

ganimi kawa said:


> I know! That is why I posted the pics so that the "cranked" part can be highlighted.
> 
> Apart from the obvious difference in the trailing edge, the Tejas wing has much more commonality with the F 16XL or the Viggen than Mirage 2000 AFA the working philosophy is concerned.


 
the viggen was a step ahead of simple tailess delt -- it had coumpound delta plus a seperate fixed canard above the level of the main wing... after the viggen, even the canards became moveable in subsequent models


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## Manticore

saab draken is without canards and a better example while comparing e f16xl


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## ganimi kawa

ANTIBODY said:


> t*he viggen was a step ahead of simple tailess delt *-- it had coumpound delta plus a seperate fixed canard above the level of the main wing... after the viggen, even the canards became moveable in subsequent models




While I agree with the facts from your post; I'm getting a faint impression that you think that the LCA is a simple tailless delta. (bolstered by your statements from Combat Aircarft Design thread)

If you think so, please elaborate.


Adding canards LCA variant with canards was evaluated during early phase of designing. It was canceled as studies indicated no extra benefits from this config.


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## Manticore

ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement

now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me


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## Black Widow

ANTIBODY said:


> ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement
> 
> now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me




So what exactly you want to say??? As I have posted earlier (in one of my post) there are very few wing design are for Aircrafts, and most of them are used earlier.. B2 uses the Horton Design.. so what???? who told DRDO innovated cranked delta design??? 

We are saying that we prefer crank delta design over simple delta design.. no where we mentioned that we discover this design.. 

I will suggest you to watch video on Mirage.. (Discovery Wings) I will narrate the story in couple of line... "delta design was not that effective , so Mirage changed its design, The Mirage F1 was one of its non delta design plane.... but after FBW came into picture, the drawback of Delta design became bliss for it... delta design keep the fighter plane more stable, which is not good for fighter planes.. With FBW it was easy to generate unstable aerodynamics... (RSS: reverse static stability)"


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## Han Patriot

perplexed said:


> No, next we will construct LUND ( *L*ight *U*ndersea *N*aval *D*ock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast


 
 I am so scared. Well, while you plan, will, shall, could, may and can build a LUND....LOL. We already COMPLETED 'civillian' ports in Gwadar, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. See the difference?

Explain to me how you are gonna rape our subs? Do you make your own subs? I mean not subs in development stage...an actual Indian made sub?


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## ganimi kawa

@ Antibody,

Thanks for giving me my 1000th thanks! I'll try to return the favor when you reach 999 (which will be real soon!)





ANTIBODY said:


> *ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s* -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.




What you have said in the Combat Aircraft Design thread is this,



ANTIBODY said:


> *lca still is based on a primitive tailess delta design , without many modifications, which first flew even before the 1940s!*-- funny thing is, they call jf17 with dsi an old design!!!
> 
> ive posted 25+ fighters in this category starting from
> 
> *primitive tailless delta-* m2k/mirage3/5 , nammer, kifir[experimented with a small fixed canard type],cheetah, eygptian, *lca* , f102, f106
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XF-92 [1945]
> 
> 
> *then compound delta [without seperate canards]*mig21 prototypes, f16xl-, draken, f108
> 
> 
> *cranked delta*- like f7pg
> 
> *then viggen *came up with a fixed canard +delta
> 
> 
> *latest fighters* now have moveable canards- j10 etc





1. Tejas is a cranked delta and not simple tailless one as you have classified.

2. Compound or cranked delta were not mere cosmetic changes, they altered the performance of the deltas in a profound manner. ( No need for me to highlight the F-16 XL experience, I presume).

3. Assuming that addition of canards is the only way a delta can be called as advanced is a fallacy. If LCA can acheive the ASR without canards, then it is an achievement. e.g. NLCA with LEVCONS.






ANTIBODY said:


> now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ *fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17* e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me




1. If you think that FBW has not made any difference to the performance of delta then..........

what about relaxed stability?



> The introduction of FBW technology and relaxed stability allowed Dassault to take advantage the delta planform´s undeniable strong points whilst eliminating or at least minimising the weaknesses, such as a low sustained turn rate.




2. Just post the similarities between M2K and LCA, and we can discuss further.



In nutshell, there are lot of things in the LCA wing that make it relevant and not a "simple tailless delta" as you claim it to be, even without canards !

I will go into more details of the LCA wing design later on.


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## Han Patriot

Joe Shearer said:


> The people whose names appear on aircraft types - Sukhoi, MiG, Mil, Antonov, Ilyushin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS - are known as systems integrators. They don't make planes in a factory where the nuts, bolts and composites are made; they call in assemblies, sub-assemblies and components from all over the world, subject to security and secrecy considerations, and put them together to a design. Sometimes, as in the case of the Russians, design and manufacture are separated, for greater integrity. Yes, the systems integrators and the designers, between them, retain the right to make changes in design and alterations and modifications, due to discoveries made during test flights, but this is the process.




Friend, 

I was asking you a simple question. What components for the LCA were made indigenously? You don't have to give me grandfather story about Sukhoi not making bolts and nuts. The point is somewhere down the supply chain that bolt and nut is made in Russian isn't it? Comprehendo, amigo? 





> Tyres have been made in Dunlop Sahaganj from the 50s; the legendary Suranjan Das' son was a Dunlop employee supervising smooth supply of these to HAL from the 70s onwards. Avionics, with which I have personal involvement, has been indigenous from the 70s and 80s onwards; the brilliant account of the DARIN conversion by T K Sen is a gripping story by itself.



Again, do you have to go round and round telling the history of Indian aircraft tires? Those tires could have been used for Mig-21 or WWII British planes for all I care. Do you think those tires can be used interchangeably with a gen 4.5 super duper advanced aircraft? Just tell me are the landing systems made in India, prove it. Are those main mechanisms imported and assembled? I am somehow perplexed by this Indian talent of talking on and on without going to the point directly.






> Composites were developed under the leadership of the technical genius Krishnadas Nair, whose lectures on composite technology drew packed audiences; his open lectures usually had a distinguished overseas delegation in attendance. The composite manufacturing effort was developed within HAL while he was Managing Director of the Bangalore Complex, well before his Chairmanship. Autocrat though he was, nothing should be subtracted from his technical contributions to the nation.



Packed audiences, distinguished 'overseas' delegation.... I have seen a lot of Indian resumes boasting in the same way. Another talent? If he is so damn good, why do you still need to pay millions for a foreign consultant? What is the level of composites technology in India?

According to this Indian link, India's first carbon fibre production was inaugurated in 2010. 

MACHINIST - Kemrock Industries commissions Carbon Fibre Facility near Vadodara

Now check this link for China and think. We occupy 4.5% of the market share behind Japan, US.
Global and China Carbon Fiber Industry Report, 2009-2010 by ResearchInChina 

OO btw, China has one of the most advanced nano carbon fiber research and results had already been PRODUCED.

http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=14731.php




> The landing gear and its anti-skid braking software was developed by HAL engineers working within the ADA/ADE; my successor as CEO in the avionics firm was lead programmer for the ABS software.



Okay prove please? Which portion of the algorithm is developed locally? Some foreign 'consultants' again? Or maybe you bought the software package, and developed an 'application' from it, much like what INFOSYS does with SAP.




> I could go on and on, if not for the fact that we have gone into all this before. The crowning glory, however, was the writing of the flight control laws. It has led to a smooth, mellow flying machine which each and every one flying it has fallen in love with from the first flight onwards. Contrary to half-baked reports, the involvement of Lockheed-Martin was limited to intense technical discussions with a full team of Indian engineers, who started developing the control laws. They were locked out of their work-places literally at an hour's notice on the clamping of sanctions. All the work for the first version, which a member of the team says was slightly rough at the edges, typical for version 1.0 efforts, was left behind. The team went to work again from first principles, and the result is flying now. So much for Lockheed-Martin having built the control laws. For those who have read 'The Mythical Man-month', this illustrates the maxim that in a large software project, the first step is to make one to throw away.



Again, you don't have to go on and on. Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question. You claim LCA is an indigenous aircraft, but why is Lockheed in the picture? Why do you pay them millions when your super duper talented engineers are peforming?  You pay Lockheed to look at your engineers develop the super duper control system? If you can solve the problem, why the 'consultants'? Are you saying from even design stage to manufacturing, almost none is indigenous? Ooooo okay, the 'system engineering' a.k.a assemblying is indigenous! 





> There were failures. The worst was Kaveri, which was crippled by sanctions. Everything had been built around the supply of certain critical components. I am not sure that I should even talk about it. Another setback was the AESA radar development. And that was about it. For a ground-up effort, this was magnificent. Some tuppenny-ha'penny wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate should not cause such a storm of reaction unless we are ourselves actually ignorant about what happened. I am quite irritated at the slavish efforts still being made to try and convince those who have clearly set themselves up to have some fun at the expense of our more combustible members.



If it ain't working and not in operation. You can stop there. . I want to know what is produced and proof....simple as that....LOL


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## Han Patriot

Ganimi-ji,

Can be highlighted? or boosted? Hell, except for that lil' notch up in the wing, the whole plane looks exactly like a Mirage. Hell even the CONSULTANT WAS DASSAULT.

LOL. okay okay chill, the intakes were 'new' with 'input' from DASSAULT? So, you admit DASSAULT 'helped' you to design the plane? In that case, how can it be indigenous?


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Han Warrior said:


> I am so scared. Well, while you plan, will, shall, could, may and can build a LUND....LOL. We already COMPLETED 'civillian' ports in Gwadar, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. See the difference?
> 
> Explain to me how you are gonna rape our subs? Do you make your own subs? I mean not subs in development stage...an actual Indian made sub?



Why are you worried? You are a Bhutanese not a Chinese.By the way INS Shalki was made in India.


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## Han Patriot

ANTIBODY said:


> ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement
> 
> now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me


 

Antibody,

You don't have to argue so much with our Indian bhais. Just look at the evolution of some modern gen 4 aircrafts,

DASSAULT
...............

Mirage 2K = delta
Rafale = Canards

EADS
.........
Eurofighter = Canards


SAAB
.........

Draken = Delta
Viggen = Canard
Gripen = Canard

Can we see a pattern here?

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## Han Patriot

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Why are you worried? You are a Bhutanese not a Chinese.By the way INS Shalki was made in India.



I am Chinese but Bhutan is gonna be part of China in the Future, so it makes no difference. =)

Someone was laughing when I said China had one of the largest advance optical lens base after Japan, Germany and US. Well, check this link :

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2002a/nr020520chinae.html

Olympus, Nikon, Zeiss, all have factories in China making camera lens. Domestic company like Seagull makes camera lens as OEM and supply lens to these MNCS. Do you know how big is the industrial base in China now? Imagine the engineers trained, the production workers, technicians & QC/QA? The facilities are state of the art.


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## Ghoster

Han Warrior said:


> I am Chinese but Bhutan is gonna be part of China in the Future, so it makes no difference. =)


and they say they are never expansionists

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## kingdurgaking

Han Warrior said:


> Again, you don't have to go on and on. Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question. You claim LCA is an indigenous aircraft, but why is Lockheed in the picture? Why do you pay them millions when your super duper talented engineers are peforming?  You pay Lockheed to look at your engineers develop the super duper control system? If you can solve the problem, why the 'consultants'? Are you saying from even design stage to manufacturing, almost none is indigenous? Ooooo okay, the 'system engineering' a.k.a assemblying is indigenous!


 
Simple question when you dont understand the simple logic.... you go to school still being your father is educated why?


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## desimorty

> You don't have to argue so much with our Indian bhais. Just look at the evolution of some modern gen 4 aircrafts,
> 
> DASSAULT
> ...............
> 
> Mirage 2K = delta
> Rafale = Canards
> 
> EADS
> .........
> Eurofighter = Canards
> 
> 
> SAAB
> .........
> 
> Draken = Delta
> Viggen = Canard
> Gripen = Canard
> 
> Can we see a pattern here?


f16 xl a more advanced wing design yet concieved with a higher payload, a cranked areo delta wing platform
f-22 conventional
f-35 conventional
t-50 conventional,
see the pattern.
your argument is mute
you have no scientific basis.
The lca projects consultant was dassualt, that time dassualt was working on the rafale and tampering with new delta designs. India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.
but the future for the lca tejas changed when in the early 90's the cranked delta design was tried on the f-16xl, one of the designers was indian.
the cranked delta was used in the US space shuttle as well.
it provided with key advantages,
lift greater than the conviental delta on mirage 2000 series.
unstable design, hence the tejas is "statically" unstable.
which means, even with out tails or canards, the lca is unstable and unable to fly with out fbw and computers. the entire wing design is creating drage upward.
as i have mentioned this is used in the space shuttle and f-16xl. this design allows for a delta design to achieve a higher aoa and greater lift as if it had a canards but still not the same because it will never and therefor it can not achieve the higher angle of attacks true canards provide but comes close with its own advantages in other areas.
this design allows for a greater wing area, thereby increasing lift and reducing wing loading. the lca is marketed as the lightest combat aircraft in the world.


> Wing loading is a useful measure of the general maneuvering performance of an aircraft. Wings generate lift owing to the motion of air over the wing surface. Larger wings move more air, so an aircraft with a large wing area relative to its mass (i.e., low wing loading) will have more lift at any given speed. Therefore, an aircraft with lower wing loading will be able to take-off and land at a lower speed (or be able to take off with a greater load). It will also be able to turn faster.


its about effiecency, in short summary if you understand all this.
j-10 wing loading 335 kg/m^2
mig -29 = 442
gripen 283
typhoon 312
tejas=221
now the tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and has very large wing area relative to its size which is a plus and helps with lift, payload and most importantly takeoff and landing fuel consumpation.
it does not mean the tejas is the most agile in the air, that was not the goal, the goal was to make the aircraft atleast close in agility.
when the project was initiated, india already had access to bvr capable mirages and falcrums.
it was speculated that bvr would kill the dogfighter.
that to some extent is true. 
but the real killer to high g turns was the arrival of helmet mounted sights with targeting. the tejas uses HMDS. its good enough.
there is a mantiance advantage to avoiding the canard or extra control surfraces as well, there would be less stress on the air frame etc... and less moving parts.
the other advantage is the reduced weight.
you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.
its not to say the tejas is manuavrable or the best dog fighter. it stands out in other areas as well.
RCS is reduced on the aircraft and one of the reasons being the lack of extra control surfaces.
If you want an arguement you may as well use the one i have enjoyed and is the least refutable. 
because of the size of this aircraft, it has limited growth oppurtunities. 
meaning, more will be added to the outside rather than in.
the gripen suffers from the same short fall.

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## ganimi kawa

jatt said:


> f16 xl a more advanced wing design yet concieved with a higher payload, a cranked areo delta wing platform
> f-22 conventional
> f-35 conventional
> t-50 conventional,
> see the pattern.
> your argument is mute
> you have no scientific basis.
> The lca projects consultant was dassualt, that time dassualt was working on the rafale and tampering with new delta designs. India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.
> but the future for the lca tejas changed when in the early 90's the cranked delta design was tried on the f-16xl, one of the designers was indian.
> the cranked delta was used in the US space shuttle as well.
> it provided with key advantages,
> lift greater than the conviental delta on mirage 2000 series.
> unstable design, hence the tejas is "statically" unstable.
> which means, even with out tails or canards, the lca is unstable and unable to fly with out fbw and computers. the entire wing design is creating drage upward.
> as i have mentioned this is used in the space shuttle and f-16xl. this design allows for a delta design to achieve a higher aoa and greater lift as if it had a canards but still not the same because it will never and therefor it can not achieve the higher angle of attacks true canards provide but comes close with its own advantages in other areas.
> this design allows for a greater wing area, thereby increasing lift and reducing wing loading. the lca is marketed as the lightest combat aircraft in the world.
> 
> its about effiecency, in short summary if you understand all this.
> j-10 wing loading 335 kg/m^2
> mig -29 = 442
> gripen 283
> typhoon 312
> tejas=221
> now the tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and has very large wing area relative to its size which is a plus and helps with lift, payload and most importantly takeoff and landing fuel consumpation.
> it does not mean the tejas is the most agile in the air, that was not the goal, the goal was to make the aircraft atleast close in agility.
> when the project was initiated, india already had access to bvr capable mirages and falcrums.
> it was speculated that bvr would kill the dogfighter.
> that to some extent is true.
> but the real killer to high g turns was the arrival of helmet mounted sights with targeting. the tejas uses HMDS. its good enough.
> there is a mantiance advantage to avoiding the canard or extra control surfraces as well, there would be less stress on the air frame etc... and less moving parts.
> the other advantage is the reduced weight.
> you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.
> its not to say the tejas is manuavrable or the best dog fighter. it stands out in other areas as well.
> RCS is reduced on the aircraft and one of the reasons being the lack of extra control surfaces.
> If you want an arguement you may as well use the one i have enjoyed and is the least refutable.
> because of the size of this aircraft, it has limited growth oppurtunities.
> meaning, more will be added to the outside rather than in.
> the gripen suffers from the same short fall.



Very good post, but addressing it to a guy like han warrior is a waste! He's still stuck with faulty assumptions like LM helped ADA with LCA's FBW.


Also, do you have any source on the dassault support? I couldn't find any.


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## John Doe

Excellent discussion! Though it is pretty clear that this 'Han Warrior' who speaks Urdu is as Chinese as I am an Bulgarian

Which brings me to: Why are some pakistanis ashamed of their country? Why pretend to be something else?


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## Pioneerfirst

John Doe said:


> Excellent discussion! Though it is pretty clear that this 'Han Warrior' who speaks Urdu is as Chinese as I am an Bulgarian
> 
> Which brings me to: Why are some pakistanis ashamed of their country? Why pretend to be something else?


 
if someone likes any country then consider it personal feelings.Same as millions of Pakistanis and indian have foreign passport but still love their countries...

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## Han Patriot

jatt said:


> f16 xl a more advanced wing design yet concieved with a higher payload, a cranked areo delta wing platform
> f-22 conventional
> f-35 conventional
> t-50 conventional,
> see the pattern.
> your argument is mute
> you have no scientific basis.



Can you tell how conventional was F-22? How do you define conventional? Any preceding plane that looks like F-22? What is conventional design? How does it look lie? Who can authoritatively claim a design is conventional ?



> The lca projects consultant was dassualt, that time dassualt was working on the rafale and tampering with new delta designs. India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.
> but the future for the lca tejas changed when in the early 90's the cranked delta design was tried on the f-16xl, one of the designers was indian.
> the cranked delta was used in the US space shuttle as well.
> it provided with key advantages,
> lift greater than the conviental delta on mirage 2000 series.
> unstable design, hence the tejas is "statically" unstable.
> which means, even with out tails or canards, the lca is unstable and unable to fly with out fbw and computers. the entire wing design is creating drage upward.



Now India conceived the 'cranked' delta configuration? So if I cranked the F-22 wings a little, I get a 'cranked conventional' design? how much degree you need to crank to be called a cranked delta? How did India conceived this 'cranked' design? if India conceived it, what were the French doing there? Look at you conceive while getting paid millions? LOL. 

Since India conceived the 'cranked' delta, you mean US copied it? Wow.
You still don't get it do you? It's a group of people working together that makes it happen.

This not a one man show. 

There was a Chinese in the B2 program, he was super duper and made it all happen! This is the reason why India cannot achieve things. No cohesion and team work. All want to be the boss and talk alot while taking all credit.. Boasting conceals a deep inferiority complex.



> as i have mentioned this is used in the space shuttle and f-16xl. this design allows for a delta design to achieve a higher aoa and greater lift as if it had a canards but still not the same because it will never and therefor it can not achieve the higher angle of attacks true canards provide but comes close with its own advantages in other areas.
> this design allows for a greater wing area, thereby increasing lift and reducing wing loading. the lca is marketed as the lightest combat aircraft in the world.



I don't care how a delta wing compares to a 'cranked' delta. My question was why pure delta wings were replaced by delta canard configuration as seen in all major aircraft makers. Su-20MKI added a canard. And how do you define cranked? How cranky you need to get to be called cranked? The shuttle had crank in a different location with a different degree and so did the F-16XL.

Does being termed 'cranked' like the F-16XL make the LCA comparable in performance? 




> its about effiecency, in short summary if you understand all this.
> j-10 wing loading 335 kg/m^2
> mig -29 = 442
> gripen 283
> typhoon 312
> tejas=221



Nobody knows the performance of the J-10, its state secret. It is either super or suck. LCA is not even operational. 



> now the tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and has very large wing area relative to its size which is a plus and helps with lift, payload and most importantly takeoff and landing fuel consumpation.
> it does not mean the tejas is the most agile in the air, that was not the goal, the goal was to make the aircraft atleast close in agility.
> when the project was initiated, india already had access to bvr capable mirages and falcrums.



In that case, we shall use the L-15 against LCA.  So you are trying to say Mig-29 has a high wing loading but then less wing loading does not mean LCA is more agile but because you are small hence you have less wing loading? Pretty obvious isn't it. 

Close in agility to what? My toy plane? Want to try go against Mig-29 with your agile light plane?






> was speculated that bvr would kill the dogfighter.
> that to some extent is true.
> but the real killer to high g turns was the arrival of helmet mounted sights with targeting. the tejas uses HMDS. its good enough.



Alot of plane uses HMDS. The point is do you MAKE THEM!!!




> there is a mantiance advantage to avoiding the canard or extra control surfraces as well, there would be less stress on the air frame etc... and less moving parts.
> the other advantage is the reduced weight.
> you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.
> its not to say the tejas is manuavrable or the best dog fighter. it stands out in other areas as well.
> RCS is reduced on the aircraft and one of the reasons being the lack of extra control surfaces.
> If you want an arguement you may as well use the one i have enjoyed and is the least refutable.
> because of the size of this aircraft, it has limited growth oppurtunities.
> meaning, more will be added to the outside rather than in.
> the gripen suffers from the same short fall.



For ease of maintenance, I suggest you use propeller planes. Don't use jet engines, less moving parts, less complexity. Jet planes moves faster, more stress my man. Propeller planes are slow and steady. Why not but a propeller plane light trainer, those Cessnas seems like a good idea man. Hook up some missiles with a wire, no complex FBW. Just release the wire to drop the missile.

Gripen no oxy gen? Then what is this?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/gripen/
200 Gripens were made, LCA? What are you guys smoking? Please don't live in Bollywood land. Don't be like the boy that says he is proud to be a slum dog. "I am starving so what....at least I am proud and happy". I am shitting in the streets, so what? I am proud of it. LCA sucks so what, I am proud of it. 



Aww, now you compare to Gripen. How much is the RCS reduced? It's small so less RCS? You mean the radar can't see you with those 'cranked' delta wings?
My toy plane has low RCS too.

You avoid canards because you have no experience in it and is unable to create a stable control system. Why not put it in another way, cars are fast but it's less stable, so lets cycle.

Who told you LCA is as good as Gripen? My friend, you claim all these but then Gripen is operational and is not a rejected half baked foreign designed and made plane. Until now, nobody can give me a definitive answer whether this plane is indigenous. You tell tall tales, how LCA is supposedly lighter, agile, less weight, less RCS. If the solution was so simple, why not make a trainer the next fighter? L-15 is a good choice right?

My friend, one last crucial question. If the LCA is as super as you claim, how come your own air marshall is calling it a MiG-21+ plane?? Why is it always in testing mode??? Hell, it is comparable to Gripen as you said. You want to knw what I think happened.

India paid the french for a 'cranked' Mirage design, review it and stamped APPROVED. The design contribution is the super duper intense technical talent spent to look at the drawing.Hence, this plane is designed by India. Then they paid a host of other consultants to get the composites, control systems and avionics. Assemble it and called it system integration. Walla you have a plane. But due to crappy design, the air force will not accept it and hence in perpetual testing mode. LOL


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## ganimi kawa

Han Warrior said:


> *India paid the french for a 'cranked' Mirage design, review it and stamped APPROVED.
> *
> The design contribution is the super duper intense technical talent spent to look at the drawing.
> 
> Hence, this plane is designed by India.
> 
> Then they paid a host of other *consultants to get the composites, control systems * and avionics.Assemble it and called it system integration.
> 
> * Walla you have a plane. But due to crappy design, the air force will not accept it and hence in perpetual testing mode. LOL*




Sources for the bolded parts and we will see!


Till then Mr. Han Warrior, you will remain the guy who rants!


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## kingdurgaking

@Han Warrior....
Agreed LCA is Mig 21 ++ as told by the ACM... but you forgot to add the rest of the sentence what he told.... please re read the whole article.....

Secondly we bow to your brain and we admit that our scientist are not even to your level of half brain..... your knowledge is so advanced that we can even dream how canard is left behind LCA... not even in NLCA where our stupid Scientist added LEVCONs....even after seeing the superior performance of J-10
Can you please come and Lecture DRDO how you managed to add Canards just like J-20....


Thirdly we as Indians believe super duper LCA aka Griphen is enough to contain PLAAF..... we do have concern of putting PLAAF assests in the hands of PAF... and we have no concerns with PLAAF with what ever you posses


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## desimorty

> Can you tell how conventional was F-22? How do you define conventional? Any preceding plane that looks like F-22? What is conventional design? How does it look lie? Who can authoritatively claim a design is conventional ?


in the same way you degined all delta, mirages 2000s to tejas.
a conventienal swept wing or cropped delta with a common tailplaines.



> Now India conceived the 'cranked' delta configuration? So if I cranked the F-22 wings a little, I get a 'cranked conventional' design? how much degree you need to crank to be called a cranked delta? How did India conceived this 'cranked' design? if India conceived it, what were the French doing there? Look at you conceive while getting paid millions? LOL.


concieved it in the design of the tejas, they did not invent it nore do they posses a patent.
i don't know the degree you need to crank the wing, but its the leading edge. it was done to the f-16xl inorder to keep its agility.
the french or dassualt provided more consultation. i wasn't there. maybe you should ask them. but it can be assumed that they provided the bases for the development and insight into future bleeding edge technology that could be implemented. lets say for arguments sake, perhaps composites and cockpit ergonomics. 


> Since India conceived the 'cranked' delta, you mean US copied it? Wow.
> You still don't get it do you? It's a group of people working together that makes it happen.
> 
> This not a one man show.
> 
> There was a Chinese in the B2 program, he was super duper and made it all happen! This is the reason why India cannot achieve things. No cohesion and team work. All want to be the boss and talk alot while taking all credit.. Boasting conceals a deep inferiority complex.


you don't understand the point.
the indian which is somehow related to the f-16xl program, may have perhaps when having a dinner discussion brought up the idea of a cranked delta wing aircraft to some of his friends in india. or perhaps some one in ADA at the time dicided to consult him. now he didn't give away the design. but he did share a concept..
that is what my post is about. sharing an idea, not the plans to build on. thats treason.
the cranked delta wing, actually is not that complicated. its relativily simple and effective. and would have made sense to the ada lca project team when they where handed the QSR
im not boasting, i have nothing to gain or loose. you may have something to loose.


> I don't care how a delta wing compares to a 'cranked' delta. My question was why pure delta wings were replaced by delta canard configuration as seen in all major aircraft makers. Su-20MKI added a canard. And how do you define cranked? How cranky you need to get to be called cranked? The shuttle had crank in a different location with a different degree and so did the F-16XL.
> 
> Does being termed 'cranked' like the F-16XL make the LCA comparable in performance?


why canards are needed? extra control surface, greater lift
what is cranked? a variety of configurations. but very similar to the compound delta. the cranked part, actually came right out of the mouth of a team member of the lca project. back in the early areo india shows. between the two, its difficult to know the difference expecially on t he tejas. the f-16xl is an extreme example a cranked wing.,
having the same wing doesn't make the aircraft have the same performance. rather similiar in aerodynamics and effecenency of the airframe.
engines, extra control surfaces etc, will make the other major differences as well as the weight of the aircraft


> Nobody knows the performance of the J-10, its state secret. It is either super or suck. LCA is not even operational.


enough to now know the wing area and the empty weight of the aircraft, and the result is the sing loading.
5 years ago, i remember tphuang speculating that the j-10 had a weapons payload of 6 tons, i guess that smashed his observation abilities. but thats a story for another time.


> Alot of plane uses HMDS. The point is do you MAKE THEM!!!


helmet mounted display sights?
i can only think of one manufacture.
the other planes you speak of use helmet mounted targetting.
and no i don't make them.
neither does india, but they have bought them from elbiet to put on their tejas as requested by the buyer.


> For ease of maintenance, I suggest you use propeller planes. Don't use jet engines, less moving parts, less complexity. Jet planes moves faster, more stress my man. Propeller planes are slow and steady. Why not but a propeller plane light trainer, those Cessnas seems like a good idea man. Hook up some missiles with a wire, no complex FBW. Just release the wire to drop the missile.


okay. i stated an example, you roll it into a shite fest.


> Gripen no oxy gen? Then what is this?
> Gripen Multirole Fighter Aircraft - Air Force Technology
> 200 Gripens were made, LCA? What are you guys smoking? Please don't live in Bollywood land. Don't be like the boy that says he is proud to be a slum dog. "I am starving so what....at least I am proud and happy". I am shitting in the streets, so what? I am proud of it. LCA sucks so what, I am proud of it.


the gripen c has obogs (i finally remembered the abbreviation) not the gripen a. thats what i stated. the tejas has obogs.
lol, i think your living in bollywood land. don't worry about me.
this was just explain to you the extra wieght attributed to the canards.



> Aww, now you compare to Gripen. How much is the RCS reduced? It's small so less RCS? You mean the radar can't see you with those 'cranked' delta wings?
> My toy plane has low RCS too.


are you a child.
a aircraft which is smaller, will most likily have a smaller rcs, except some radar phenomenas here and there which is out of reach of my knowledge.


> You avoid canards because you have no experience in it and is unable to create a stable control system. Why not put it in another way, cars are fast but it's less stable, so lets cycle.


than ada should have avoided fbw, glass cockpits and compisotes.
if ada and hal dicided on a canard design, they could have consultated dessault. instead they avoided the canards most likily to meet the qsr.


> Who told you LCA is as good as Gripen? My friend, you claim all these but then Gripen is operational and is not a rejected half baked foreign designed and made plane. Until now, nobody can give me a definitive answer whether this plane is indigenous. You tell tall tales, how LCA is supposedly lighter, agile, less weight, less RCS. If the solution was so simple, why not make a trainer the next fighter? L-15 is a good choice right?


gripen a and tejas have very similiar features and roles. nearly the same demenisions, i never said the tejas was as good. but pointed out the fact that both provide "nearly" the same features. but the tejas empty wieght is less.
you can make a l-15 a fighter all you want. but by the time your done strengthening the wings and adding thrust, its going to be heavy.
and i dont tell tales,
and im certianly not your friend


> My friend, one last crucial question. If the LCA is as super as you claim, how come your own air marshall is calling it a MiG-21+ plane?? Why is it always in testing mode??? Hell, it is comparable to Gripen as you said. You want to knw what I think happened.


because it lacks critical components that would make it combat operational. although it can do tasks, its roles right now are limited. 
missing factors may include
technology<--which would still be in development
training<--only 1 trainer
flight envolope<--no tejas has fired a bvr missile or taken part in air force exercises, so it is technically no in service.
the mig-21 bision on the other hand provides that.
you may bash tejas because you disdian indians.
but you have a very bad argument.


> India paid the french for a 'cranked' Mirage design, review it and stamped APPROVED. The design contribution is the super duper intense technical talent spent to look at the drawing.Hence, this plane is designed by India. Then they paid a host of other consultants to get the composites, control systems and avionics. Assemble it and called it system integration. Walla you have a plane. But due to crappy design, the air force will not accept it and hence in perpetual testing mode. LOL


i was not arguing how indian the aircraft was.
modern warfare is short. there is a new doctrine since the end of the cold war. read up on it. unless of course you intend on a cold war with proxies.
but all this because i wanted to refute your point.
tejas, is not outdated by your standards. the airframe is releativily advanced, in the same sense the gripen a airframe is advanced.
tejas is a wonderfull achievement, no matter how much indian it is not.
because india, had the choice for collaboration and consultation is very important then beginning a new project. a network is very important to remian current in any field. allows one to bring together difference ways of doing things.
you can refute and repost.
but i've seen a lot of your kind.
no valid point.
just here to throw shite around.
bye..

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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas readies for more drop tank tests at ATR

India's light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is readying itself for advanced drop tank trials. Currently completing flight trials in the post-initial operational clearance (IOC) phase, military sources tell Tarmak007 that the *Tejas had begun drop-tank tests at DRDO's new Aeronautical Test Range (ATR) at Challakere, in Chitradurga of Karnataka, 100 miles north-west of Bangalore.
"An LSP-3 jettisoned drop tank at 0.7 Mach speed last week and the separation was successful. LSP-5 monitored the release. We are scheduled for more trials," military sources confirm to Tarmak007.*
The ATR became operational on December 15, 2011, when *Tejas conducted air-to-ground-trials*. Hectic activities were seen at HAL's military airport in the last few days confirming the preparations.
When asked whether the trials are high-speed in nature, the source said: "Need not be. The thrust is not on speed. It can be a combination of speed and the status of the tank. We are scheduled for another test at 0.7 Mach speed (third one) with different fuel state. The key is clearing the corner points, opening-up the envelope and achieving most critical test points towards full clearance."


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## sancho

Han Warrior said:


> I don't care how a delta wing compares to a 'cranked' delta. *My question was why pure delta wings were replaced by delta canard configuration* as seen in all major aircraft makers. Su-20MKI added a canard.



You first has to understand the aim behind it, before you can understand why LCA has no canards and therefor you have to listen what others say and not simply refuse it, just because it don't fit to your own opinion!

Canard design was developed to make the fighters more maneuverable than with conventional designs, but the downside is that it will increase the RCS to some extend. That's why the US tested canards for several of their fighters as well, but refuesed it in favour for better BVR combat capabilities.
Same was done by the Russians, that developed the Su 35 with with canards first, but deleted them later in the Su 35 BM version. The MKI is a derivate of the Su 30 MK twin seat fighter and was customised with canards and TVC to counter the high weight in the A2A role and make it more maneuverable for dogfights.

LCA instead was developed with the aim of a very low RCS in mind, that's why it was purposly designed as a very small fighter, with high ammount of composite and RAM materials from the start (which btw is similar to all modern fighter designs like the Eurocanards, or latest 5th gen fighters), or ducted air intakes. Canards were considered and tested in windtunnel models (just search for the pics in this thread), but was rejected, in favour for a lower RCS and we even had the same design on offer like Saab for the Gripen (which basically is from BAE), but again. That's most like also the reason why N-LCA will get LEVCONS instead of rather normal and easier to develop canards, to have a better low speed handling during carrier operations. 
Just another proof how modern the design of LCA is, which is hardly deniable when you take all the facts together and look at it open minded.




Han Warrior said:


> So you are trying to say Mig-29 has a high wing loading but then less wing loading does not mean LCA is more agile but because you are small hence you have less wing loading? Pretty obvious isn't it.



Again, don't refuese it only because it don't fit to your opionion and try to understand first what jatt told you:



> tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and *has very large wing area relative to its size*



A Mig 29 is way bigger and heavier, compared to it's size the wing area is not very big and that translates into high wingloadings. A low wingloading and a high TWR translates into good maneuverability, that's why a rather big sized delta wing was chosen in the LCA design and why the aim was a TWR of 1, or better.
Once again you can see why the canards was rejected, because the overall design was aimed on good maneuverability anyway. 

Also important is the big nose diameter of the LCA, which had obviously the aim of integrating a big radar, with long range. Combined with the low RCS and a capable radar + BVR missile combo, LCA will clearly have very good BVR capabilities!
For dogfights the above mentioned design features was the main point, but in addition to that, HMS was planed from the begining as well, which is proven by the integration of the Dash helmet, even in the prototypes and not only in later serial versions like it's normal (see Eurocanards)!


All these points are facts that shows how modern the LCA design is and what the aims were during the design and development stage. One can debate if all aimes were achieved, but you can hardly deny that the LCA is clearly a modern 4th gen fighter design!




Han Warrior said:


> If the LCA is as super as you claim, how come your own air marshall is calling it a MiG-21+ plane??



Because he compared it to those fighters it will replace and the that are the Mig 21, including the most capable version, the Bisions. These already have BVR and some multi role capabilities and technologicaly would fit to 3.5 gen fighters. The LCA prototypes that made IOC, are more advanced and capable, but still lacks at some fields that makes them a true 4th gen fighter, but as he also said, that will be fixed through the FOC!

Regarding Gripen:

When you compare the specs and capabilities of the LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D, there are only a few areas where the Gripen has advantages. Payload, which is restricted at MK1 because of the weight issues and some avionics, or weapons, because the Gripen is operational for decades and had more time to integrate them. But that's it, the basic specs of LCA are even better and the more mature the LCA will be, the more capable it gets. LCA MK2 will benefit a lot not only from the changes, but also from the MK1 that will test and integrate most of the weapons and capabilities.


You might want to ignore these points and simply go on with your blame game, like you did before with other posts. I don't bother about it too much, I just answered to you with the hope, that you stop this useless derailing of the thread, or at least start discussion about it with any real base behind it and not only on your believes.

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## Han Patriot

John Doe said:


> Excellent discussion! Though it is pretty clear that this 'Han Warrior' who speaks Urdu is as Chinese as I am an Bulgarian
> 
> Which brings me to: Why are some pakistanis ashamed of their country? Why pretend to be something else?


 
You call yourself John Doe and you say I am ashamed of my own country?

Don't read to much into the flags OK. I am Bhutanese of Chinese Origin.


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## GareebNawaz

Han Warrior said:


> You call yourself John Doe and you say I am ashamed of my own country?
> 
> Don't read to much into the flags OK. I am Bhutanese of Chinese Origin.


 
Who cares?

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## sudhir007

So 1 flight per day 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1620 Test Flights successfully. (31-Mar-2011).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-172,PV5-32,LSP3-38,LSP4-35,LSP5-21)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1613 Test Flights successfully. (24-Mar-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-170,PV5-31,LSP3-36,LSP4-34,LSP5-20)

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## Han Patriot

> in the same way you degined all delta, mirages 2000s to tejas.
> a conventional swept wing or cropped delta with a common tailplaines.



I did not define all of the deltas to tejas. I showed a trend where all major manufacturers were using deltas in the earlier stage and then evolving the design towards canards. The same way I was trying to explain to you pure deltas or almost pure deltas but defined as &#8217;slightly cranked&#8217; is an obsolete design philosophy. My argument was mirage 2000 and tejas are almost completely identical and this was further reinforced by the fact that Dassault was the consultant. And you still haven&#8217;t answer me why there is the trend of not using delta or &#8216;almost pure slightly cranked delta&#8217; design?

The fact is no other preceding plane look like the F-22. I challenge you to produce an example. But, I can show you one preceding plane that looks like the Teja, MIRAGE 2000. I am asking the same question again, who can authoritatively claim what is conventional. You? An airbus is defined as swept wing with tail plane too. LOL. Does the Airbus look like the F-22? All these definition is ambiguous because almost all aircraft design is unique. However, one cannot deny the fact that Tejas looks almost exactly like the Mirage and hell until today you cannot prove to me it was &#8216;conceived&#8217; indigenously. If there were no Dassault consultant, maybe yes, you can say that. This is what we call circumstantial evidence.

This is what you said:



> India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.


For you to conceive something, you need to be the originator of an idea. The better word for it should be India copied the &#8216;delta&#8217; design and added a notch. Famous Indian forked tongue again, playing with semantics.



> concieved it in the design of the tejas, they did not invent it nore do they posses a patent.
> i don't know the degree you need to crank the wing, but its the leading edge. it was done to the f-16xl inorder to keep its agility.
> the french or dassualt provided more consultation. i wasn't there. maybe you should ask them. but it can be assumed that they provided the bases for the development and insight into future bleeding edge technology that could be implemented. lets say for arguments sake, perhaps composites and cockpit ergonomics.


You don&#8217;t know the degree you need to crank it to call it a cranked delta and yet you think it is leading edge? I can understand it for the case of F-16XL, but TEJAS? The point here is TEJAS and F-16XL are two different design. You cannot equate their performance because you cannot define a &#8216;CRANKED DELTA&#8217; design. 

You are not there and yet you know what they provided? Perhaps? Maybe? Could? Should? Assume? These are again as famous as the Indian words of Can, Will & Probably. Bleeding edge? You think your design is equivalent to F-16XL ? Wake up! You cannot define cranked delta and yet you think both design are equivalent in performance while claiming TEJAS to be an indigenous design. Can you see the contradictions in your argument?

Bleeding edge my foot.


----------



## Han Patriot

> you don't understand the point.
> the indian which is somehow related to the f-16xl program, may have perhaps when having a dinner discussion brought up the idea of a cranked delta wing aircraft to some of his friends in india. or perhaps some one in ADA at the time dicided to consult him. now he didn't give away the design. but he did share a concept..
> that is what my post is about. sharing an idea, not the plans to build on. thats treason.
> the cranked delta wing, actually is not that complicated. its relativily simple and effective. and would have made sense to the ada lca project team when they where handed the QSR
> im not boasting, i have nothing to gain or loose. you may have something to loose.



I think I understand the point but you are confused with your own points. At first you said the Indian was a designer, now you said he is &#8216;somehow&#8217; involved. Then now you give me a situation where he &#8216;perhaps&#8217; was having dinner and brought up the idea to his friends in India. 

Friend, you can know all this while not being present at all. Very vivid imagination I should say. Too much Bollywood or Kollywood is a bad thing.

Heck, you can even imagine a second hypothetical situation where his friends went to consult him. And you can read his mind that he did not want to share the concept. Really creative mind!! This is the same way many Indians imagined India is already the emerging SUPPAHPOWWAH with 30% starving people. LOL.

You are boasting when :

1) Claiming it as indigenous.
2) Claiming it as bleeding edge.
3) Claiming it as being comparable to Gripen and F-16XL. See quote below of you claiming it with same performance as Gripen.
4) Claiming that an Indian was the 'DESIGNER' of F-16XL.

I have something to gain when I dissect your argument and find the flaws, but you did not gain anything if you had not seen the reality of the LCA. If all Indians think like you, the trend will continue where more and more things are imported and no indigenous capabilities are developed. Indians will forever be oblivious to the fact that they actually do not possess any real indigenous capability and keep on living in denial. If your own ACM can call it Mig-21+ and yet you keep on trumpeting it as 4.5 gen. I have nothing to say but to congratulate Indians.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Delta-Canards is a technology conceived in the 80s so it is outdated. It has more moving parts and is maintainance intensive because of that. It also has a problem of going into auto-rotation when a 360 degree barrel roll is performed under 1 second.


----------



## Han Patriot

> enough to now know the wing area and the empty weight of the aircraft, and the result is the sing loading.
> 5 years ago, i remember tphuang speculating that the j-10 had a weapons payload of 6 tons, i guess that smashed his observation abilities. but thats a story for another time.



And may I ask how did you know all these? OO, tphuang told you that and he &#8216;speculated&#8217; it? So this is your source, an online dude with a nickname called tphuang. Hey, my real name is Vivek and I have a relative&#8217;s relative who works in DRDO and he told me LCA is bleeding edge. 




> helmet mounted display sights?
> i can only think of one manufacture.
> the other planes you speak of use helmet mounted targetting.
> and no i don't make them.
> neither does india, but they have bought them from elbiet to put on their tejas as requested by the buyer.



I know what is HMDS. You were the one thinking LCA was cool with it, but I was telling you the point is you have to make them. And J-10 has got HMDS too. WE MAKE THEM!!!! Only ELBIT makes them? You need to learn more and know more. No point having it on LCA and not making them&#8230;comprehendo? 




> the gripen c has obogs (i finally remembered the abbreviation) not the gripen a. thats what i stated. the tejas has obogs.
> lol, i think your living in bollywood land. don't worry about me.
> this was just explain to you the extra wieght attributed to the canards


This is what you said. 



> you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.



You claim LCA had nearly the same capability as Gripen and then you claim LCA has got oxy gen but not Gripen. If this is not boasting, what else can I say. And then I prove to you Gripen has got oxy gen and then you come back to me and tell me about OBOGS and GRIPEN A. 

First, you type Gripen followed by a small &#8216;a&#8217;. Then you said Gripen has yet to receive an onboard OBOGS. So what can you understand from this. 

1) Gripen A has yet to receive OBOGS?
2) Gripen has yet to receive OBOGS.

Either way, Gripen A was upgraded to to C/D standards, so all Gripens now have OBOGS. How can you say Gripen has &#8216;YET&#8217; to receive OBOGS. And at which phase did LCA get OBOGS? I could say the initial test LCA had no radars and has yet to receive radars in the same manner. The point is you are comparing an aircraft in production blocks to an aircraft which has not even been inducted. If this is not living in Bollywood land. Who else is?


----------



## Han Patriot

> why canards are needed? extra control surface, greater lift
> what is cranked? a variety of configurations. but very similar to the compound delta. the cranked part, actually came right out of the mouth of a team member of the lca project. back in the early areo india shows. between the two, its difficult to know the difference expecially on t he tejas. the f-16xl is an extreme example a cranked wing.,
> having the same wing doesn't make the aircraft have the same performance. rather similiar in aerodynamics and effecenency of the airframe.
> engines, extra control surfaces etc, will make the other major differences as well as the weight of the aircraft


Why canards are needed is not for me to explain. Ask those major aircraft manufacturers and also SU-30MKI. LOL

What is this variety of configuration that was cranked. From what I can see, it was only the wings. Now, you term it as same as compound delta? So what is the difference between a compound delta and a cranked delta? Where does the distinction end and begin? AGAIN, you have not answer my question on how much crank you need to qualify as cranked delta. How much crank to qualify as EXTREME crank delta. That was the point I was making, having the same wing does not mean same performance. So what is the point you keep on comparing apples to oranges by giving me cranked configuration for shuttle and F-16XL? What do you mean similar aerodynamics? It is different. The size of the wings, the engine inlets all influence aerodynamics, how can you say it has the same efficiency and aerodynamics? Even the finishing of the surface, paint influence aerodynamics. 

Okay no point blurting. The original point I was making is

1) LCA was based on Mirage 2000 design with Dassault involvement.
2) LCA performance does not equate Mirage 2000. Could be worse?
3) Why was there an evolution away from delta? Any other new modern Gen 4 or 5 planes with delta?
4) There is no clear definition that qualifies LCA as a cranked delta.


----------



## sudhir007

Designers insist Tejas will belie all sceptical questioning

With the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) entering service with Indian Air Force squadrons, the designers of this indigenous fighter have explained why they believe this will be the world&#8217;s premier light fighter.

The Tejas Mark-II, to be developed by 2014 and roll off production lines by 2018, will perform 40 per cent better than the current fighter. After which would come the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, the AMCA, which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) says will be a &#8220;fifth-generation plus&#8221; fighter, more formidable than anything flying today.

In an exclusive interview with Business Standard, P Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA and the AMCA, responded to IAF criticism that the Tejas was not yet a world-class fighter. He said the Tejas Mark-I, still being flight-tested, had been flown to just 85 per cent of its full capability. The Tejas Mark-II -- in which a more powerful GE-414 engine will replace the current GE-404 engine -- would perform another 15 per cent better.

&#8220;The Tejas Mark-I will expand its performance envelope to its full capability by end-2012. And, a major performance boost will come from the Tejas Mark-II&#8217;s new GE-414 engine, for which we have signed a $700-million (Rs 3,135 crore) contract to build here in India. The Mark-II will outperform the Mark-I by about 15 per cent in the key aspects of take-off run, rate of climb, acceleration, and turn rate. Most of this would come from the higher thrust of the GE-414 engine. Another two-three per cent benefit would come from better aerodynamics&#8230; since we will re-engineer the fighter to accommodate the new engine. That overall 35-40 per cent improvement would make the LCA the world&#8217;s premier light fighter,&#8221; says Subramanyam.

The Tejas Mark-I is scheduled to obtain Final Operational Clearance by end-2012. A fighter is granted FOC when ready for combat missions, with all its weapons and sensors fitted, integrated and tested. The IAF worries that the Tejas, already long delayed, might not obtain its FOC on schedule.

Meanwhile, ADA designers are working on the Tejas Mark-II, which Subramanyam says will fly by 2014, enter production by 2016, and obtain FOC by 2018. &#8220;Besides re-designing the airframe to accommodate the GE-414 engine, ADA will also grab the opportunity to upgrade key electronics, especially the flight control computer and some avionics, so that the Mark-II is a cutting-edge fighter when it enters service,&#8221; says the ADA chief.

&#8216;No fancy plan&#8217;
Brushing aside apprehension of further delay of the kind that has dogged the Tejas programme, Subramanyam insists, &#8220;Our design timeline is realistic. The main sub-systems of the Tejas Mark-II will remain unchanged, except for electronics components. So, the Mark-II will not need extensive flight-testing, as most of its sub-systems will have already been test-flown on the Mark-I.&#8221;

ADA designers also say &#8220;maintainability&#8221; of the Tejas has already been established. This key attribute relates to how quickly and easily technicians can service and repair the fighter and, therefore, how quickly it can get out of a hangar and into combat. Of 200 &#8220;requests for action&#8221; &#8212; suggestions from IAF pilots and technicians for design changes that would ease maintenance &#8212; most have already been implemented. Just 12-15 remain for implementing in the Mark-II.

The Tejas programme will provide the springboard for the ADA&#8217;s next project, a more heavily armed and capable fighter. Even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Sukhoi, the Russian aerospace giant, jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), ADA will go it alone in developing an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. The DRDO&#8217;s R&D chief, Prahlada, has told Business Standard the AMCA will have features more advanced than current fifth-generation fighters. That means AMCA will be technologically ahead of the FGFA when it enters service at the end of this decade.

Asked whether that might be over-ambitious, Prahlada retorts, &#8220;When we had begun the LCA programme, people asked the same question. They thought we would not be able to build a fighter with composite materials, and with an unstable aerodynamic configuration. The Tejas has proved them wrong. Today, we say we will build a fighter that is better than Gen-5. And, the sceptics will be proven wrong again.&#8221;

As Business Standard reported earlier, Rs 10,397 crore have been sanctioned for developing the Tejas Mark-II for the IAF; and another Rs 3,650 crore for the naval Tejas, which would operate off aircraft carriers. Subramanyam says this total expenditure of Rs 14,047 crore would be amortised over 200 Tejas fighters, at about Rs 70 crore per aircraft. This projected order includes two squadrons (40 fighters) of LCA Mark-I that the IAF has already ordered; an expected five squadrons (100 fighters) of LCA Mark-II and another two-three squadrons (40-60 fighters) for the Navy. In addition, the manufacturing cost of the IAF Tejas is projected at Rs 180-200 crore and of the naval version at Rs 190-210 crore.


----------



## IndianTiger

Ajai Shukla /
Bangalore April 04, 2011,
0:22 IST With the Tejas Light Combat
Aircraft (LCA) entering
service with Indian Air Force
squadrons, the designers of
this indigenous fighter have
explained why they believe this will be the world s premier light fighter. The Tejas Mark-II, to be
developed by 2014 and roll off
production lines by 2018, will
perform 40 per cent better
than the current fighter. After
which would come the Advanced Medium Combat
Aircraft, the AMCA, which the
Defence Research and
Development Organisation
(DRDO) says will be a fifth- generation plus fighter, more formidable than anything
flying today. In an exclusive interview
with Business Standard, P
Subramanyam, director of the
Aeronautical Development
Agency (ADA), which is
developing the LCA and the AMCA, responded to IAF
criticism that the Tejas was
not yet a world-class fighter.
He said the Tejas Mark-I, still
being flight-tested, had been
flown to just 85 per cent of its full capability. The Tejas Mark-
II -- in which a more powerful
GE-414 engine will replace the
current GE-404 engine -- would
perform another 15 per cent
better. The Tejas Mark-I will expand its performance envelope to
its full capability by end-2012.
And, a major performance
boost will come from the
Tejas Mark-II s new GE-414 engine, for which we have
signed a $700-million (Rs 3,135
crore) contract to build here in
India. The Mark-II will
outperform the Mark-I by
about 15 per cent in the key aspects of take-off run, rate
of climb, acceleration, and turn
rate. Most of this would come
from the higher thrust of the
GE-414 engine. Another two-
three per cent benefit would come from better
aerodynamics  since we will re-engineer the fighter to
accommodate the new engine.
That overall 35-40 per cent
improvement would make
the LCA the world s premier light fighter,  says Subramanyam. The Tejas Mark-I is scheduled
to obtain Final Operational
Clearance by end-2012. A
fighter is granted FOC when
ready for combat missions,
with all its weapons and sensors fitted, integrated and
tested. The IAF worries that
the Tejas, already long
delayed, might not obtain its
FOC on schedule. Meanwhile, ADA designers are
working on the Tejas Mark-II,
which Subramanyam says
will fly by 2014, enter
production by 2016, and
obtain FOC by 2018. Besides re-designing the airframe to
accommodate the GE-414
engine, ADA will also grab the
opportunity to upgrade key
electronics, especially the
flight control computer and some avionics, so that the
Mark-II is a cutting-edge
fighter when it enters
service,  says the ADA chief. No fancy plan  Brushing aside apprehension
of further delay of the kind
that has dogged the Tejas
programme, Subramanyam
insists, Our design timeline is realistic. The main sub-systems
of the Tejas Mark-II will
remain unchanged, except for
electronics components. So,
the Mark-II will not need
extensive flight-testing, as most of its sub-systems will
have already been test-flown
on the Mark-I.  ADA designers also say
maintainability  of the Tejas has already been established.
This key attribute relates to
how quickly and easily
technicians can service and
repair the fighter and,
therefore, how quickly it can get out of a hangar and into
combat. Of 200 requests for action  suggestions from IAF pilots and technicians for
design changes that would
ease maintenance  most have already been
implemented. Just 12-15
remain for implementing in
the Mark-II. The Tejas programme will
provide the springboard for
the ADA s next project, a more heavily armed and
capable fighter. Even as
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and
Sukhoi, the Russian aerospace
giant, jointly develop the
Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), ADA will go
it alone in developing an
Advanced Medium Combat
Aircraft. The DRDO s R&D chief, Prahlada, has told Business
Standard the AMCA will have
features more advanced than
current fifth-generation
fighters. That means AMCA
will be technologically ahead of the FGFA when it enters
service at the end of this
decade. Asked whether that might be
over-ambitious, Prahlada
retorts, When we had begun the LCA programme, people
asked the same question. They
thought we would not be
able to build a fighter with
composite materials, and with
an unstable aerodynamic configuration. The Tejas has
proved them wrong. Today,
we say we will build a fighter
that is better than Gen-5. And,
the sceptics will be proven
wrong again. As Business Standard reported
earlier, Rs 10,397 crore have
been sanctioned for
developing the Tejas Mark-II
for the IAF; and another Rs
3,650 crore for the naval Tejas, which would operate off
aircraft carriers.
Subramanyam says this total
expenditure of Rs 14,047 crore
would be amortised over 200
Tejas fighters, at about Rs 70 crore per aircraft. This
projected order includes two
squadrons (40 fighters) of LCA
Mark-I that the IAF has
already ordered; an expected
five squadrons (100 fighters) of LCA Mark-II and another
two-three squadrons (40-60
fighters) for the Navy. In
addition, the manufacturing
cost of the IAF Tejas is
projected at Rs 180-200 crore and of the naval version at Rs
190-210 crore.


----------



## farhan_9909

Why is LCA called light combat aircraft when it weight more then JF-17?

bt JF-17 means Joint fighter instead of light?

---------- Post added at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

i am talking about empty weight


----------



## Han Patriot

> are you a child.
> a aircraft which is smaller, will most likily have a smaller rcs, except some radar phenomenas here and there which is out of reach of my knowledge.



Thats the point isnt it? Smaller aircraft has got smaller RCS. So, why are blurting so much about it as a LCA advantage. L-15 is a small trainer and has got smaller RCS. What difference does it make?
You mean the radar cant detect LCA? What advantage does it imbue? If it is out of your knowledge, then dont blurt it out. Dont talk just for the sake of talking.

If both a Mig-29 and LCA were flying, most radars would pick up both aircrafts. Comprehendo? So do you still want to point out RCS reduction as a super duper LCA design characteristic?




> than ada should have avoided fbw, glass cockpits and compisotes.
> if ada and hal dicided on a canard design, they could have consultated dessault. instead they avoided the canards most likily to meet the qsr.



Let me correct my statement, you didnt even have the ability to design the controls for a delta aircraft. FBW is from Lockheed, composites from the Swedes, glass, no idea. I think most aircraft used glass as cockpit material right? Or you can show me an example of plastic cockpit. You conceived LCA back before Rafale was having the first flight. You think the French would offer you state of the art technology? Dont be so naïve. 


> gripen a and tejas have very similiar features and roles. nearly the same demenisions, i never said the tejas was as good. but pointed out the fact that both provide "nearly" the same features. but the tejas empty wieght is less.
> you can make a l-15 a fighter all you want. but by the time your done strengthening the wings and adding thrust, its going to be heavy.
> and i dont tell tales,


 

You had been claiming this and that all through your statement, and whenever I correct you, you give another statement to try to overwhelm the previous statement. No point telling me LCA has got the same features when both are two different planes and one is in operation. Indians are the only ones claiming it has got the same Multi-role function as Gripen. But again, compare the weapons load and performance, can it ACHIEVE that claim? Features, hey J-10 supposedly has got the same features as SU-30MKI too, are they the same? And best of all most stuff is made in China.


And again this is what you said



> you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.



You didnt claim it has got same capability? LOL. If you just told me the performance is different then how does empty weight matter. Mig-29 could be heavier but could easily shred your toy plane into pieces. How sure are you L-15 needs strengthening and how much weight it would add? You have no idea right? So if you dont know, then dont say. My original point was to dismiss your claim that LCA is having advantage by being lighter. Smaller, more agile, less RCS. If this was the case, L-15 is smaller, more agile and also less RCS. And your previous statement of making comparison with J-10, Mig-29 and Gripen wing loading. When you yourself admit the performance of Gripen compared to LCA cannot be verified. How does your supposedly advantages be relevant. You are comparing poodle to a bulldog.



> because it lacks critical components that would make it combat operational. although it can do tasks, its roles right now are limited.
> missing factors may include
> technology<--which would still be in development
> training<--only 1 trainer
> flight envolope<--no tejas has fired a bvr missile or taken part in air force exercises, so it is technically no in service.
> the mig-21 bision on the other hand provides that.
> you may bash tejas because you disdian indians.
> but you have a very bad argument


.

Haha, so now you claim it lacks critical components to be operational. So how can you verify it can do its task when you dont even have the critical components. Am I wrong in claiming it to be a half baked foreign designed and made plane? What is indigenous? So in essence, because LCA is not achieving its supposedly design role, it is now no more advanced than a Mig-21 Bison? I didnt say it, you just did. LOL. OMG!! This is funny.

Let me summarize my claims:

1) You have not proven to me LCA is indigenous.
2) You just admit it is half baked.




> i was not arguing how indian the aircraft was.
> modern warfare is short. there is a new doctrine since the end of the cold war. read up on it. unless of course you intend on a cold war with proxies.
> but all this because i wanted to refute your point.
> tejas, is not outdated by your standards. the airframe is releativily advanced, in the same sense the gripen a airframe is advanced.
> tejas is a wonderfull achievement, no matter how much indian it is not.
> because india, had the choice for collaboration and consultation is very important then beginning a new project. a network is very important to remian current in any field. allows one to bring together difference ways of doing things.
> you can refute and repost.
> but i've seen a lot of your kind.
> no valid point.




Dont worry, except for the name, the aircraft mostly foreign. Dont change the topic to cold wars, I was only stating two facts,

1) The aircraft is foreign
2) The design is outdated.

Dont ever dare compare Gripen to LCA. Just because it is made from composites doesnt make it advance. My bike is carbon fiber too. Now, good you admit it is not much Indian. Bravo !

Collaboration or purchase. Until now, I had not seen much ability in technology absorption or assimilation from your side. Still being rip off by the Russians as always. Su-30MKI was supposedly to be made in India, now they are paying 70 Mil a pop for new planes from Russia. Mirage upgrade is 2 bil? I mean for a 40 year old plane? Come on


----------



## gubbi

Han Warrior said:


> Let me correct my statement, you didn&#8217;t even have the ability to design the controls for a delta aircraft. FBW is from Lockheed, composites from the Swedes, glass, no idea.* I think most aircraft used glass as cockpit material right? Or you can show me an example of plastic cockpit*. You &#8216;conceived&#8217; LCA back before Rafale was having the first flight. You think the French would offer you state of the art technology? Don&#8217;t be so naïve.


 
That! That one right there is a GEM!! 

Epic post is epic!

Copy that people and save it for posterity's sake!!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## rockstarIN

farhan_9909 said:


> Why is LCA called light combat aircraft when it weight more then JF-17?
> 
> bt JF-17 means Joint fighter instead of light?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------
> 
> i am talking about empty weight


 
Holland Gnat is lighter than LCA, there were hell lot of lighter planes.


----------



## Han Patriot

> You first has to understand the aim behind it, before you can understand why LCA has no canards and therefor you have to listen what others say and not simply refuse it, just because it don't fit to your own opinion!



You are forcing me to see it in your own lens but I am merely dissecting your claims so that you can prove your claims and see it in another view. I do not have to understand why LCA has no canards, I need to understand why most major 4 gen planes have canards like J-10. Simple as that.




> Canard design was developed to make the fighters more maneuverable than with conventional designs, but the downside is that it will increase the RCS to some extend. That's why the US tested canards for several of their fighters as well, but refuesed it in favour for better BVR combat capabilities.
> Same was done by the Russians, that developed the Su 35 with with canards first, but deleted them later in the Su 35 BM version. The MKI is a derivate of the Su 30 MK twin seat fighter and was customised with canards and TVC to counter the high weight in the A2A role and make it more maneuverable for dogfights.



Friend,

Americans/Russians not using canards does not mean deltas are better. I don&#8217;t seem to see any modern American/Russian planes with deltas either. On the other hand the Europeans had delta planes and moved on to Canards. Do you understand my argument. I am arguing canard against obsolete pure delta. 

The point is how much RCS is increased compared to a super huge delta wing? I am not comparing it with American or Russian aircrafts, I am comparing it with LCA. I also understand the deficiencies of a canard, but that does&#8217;t mean almost pure delta is better. That&#8217;s the point, if canard was so bad, Su-30MKI would&#8217;t have deployed it. Would&#8217;t it increase RCS? Hell, does it matter? The radar could see both SU-30 with or without canards.



> LCA instead was developed with the aim of a very low RCS in mind, that's why it was purposly designed as a very small fighter, with high ammount of composite and RAM materials from the start (which btw is similar to all modern fighter designs like the Eurocanards, or latest 5th gen fighters), or ducted air intakes. Canards were considered and tested in windtunnel models (just search for the pics in this thread), but was rejected, in favour for a lower RCS and we even had the same design on offer like Saab for the Gripen (which basically is from BAE), but again. That's most like also the reason why N-LCA will get LEVCONS instead of rather normal and easier to develop canards, to have a better low speed handling during carrier operations.
> Just another proof how modern the design of LCA is, which is hardly deniable when you take all the facts together and look at it open minded.






>



Again, the point is small planes without canard like L-15 all have less RCS. The point is how much less? The radars could still see both the LCA and L-15. RAM coating was developed in China too, if I apply a lil&#8217; on my L-15 trainer, could it be 4th gen? You cannot verify the reason of rejection, first you pal said it was too complex with a lot of moving parts. Then I advised him to use a propeller plane if that was the case. Then now you tell me it was rejected due to RCS. LCA is not exactly stealthy my friend. Applying RAM coating reduces it, but the science behind stealth is not so simple. Can you prove to me why the supposedly canards were supposedly rejected by ADA? Could it be it was to complex to be developed? LOL. I am talking about moving canards here. SU-30MKI is a static canard.

Aren&#8217;t you contradicting yourself, you tell me LCA was developed for low RCS and now you are going to apply LEVCON canards to it? So which is which? So LEVCON does not increase RCS? Right!

Can you tell me how advance is LEVCON as compared to dynamic canard of the j-10 and Euro fighter? A nation that cannot even efficiently distribute food can all the sudden develop planes more advance that the everybody. Can you see your boastfulness? You cannot even develop &#8216;simple&#8217; dynamic canards yet you talk about LEVCON, which is btw an Indian acronym. What is next? ANAL? Advanced Next Gen Aircraft for Leading air role?









> Just another proof how modern the design of LCA is, which is hardly deniable when you take all the facts together and look at it open minded.



Can you see your own delusions? The whole world is looking at a third world plane claiming to be most advanced. A plane that is remotely Indian where even the nuts are imported.


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## timba

To all indians here..
"Don't fight with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it"...


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## timba

Han dont you have any other constructive work other than ruining a thread ..
If you have problems with LCA just go and open a new thread and V@mit nonsense..


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## Han Patriot

gubbi said:


> That! That one right there is a GEM!!
> 
> Epic post is epic!
> 
> Copy that people and save it for posterity's sake!!



Thank you for correcting me, I had no idea what a glass cockpit was. In my terminology, we use digitize control display, where gauges were replaced by MFDs. Since I gave a wrong term, does it make LCA super duper gen 4.5 now? =)


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## timba

Are you doing this to just seek attention..??
Then yes you have caught our attention ..
Stop typing out your frustration ..


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## gubbi

I love this guy - Han Warrior!

Its amazing how he comes up with such interesting claims, which to be fair, not even the worst trolls intent on derailing could come up with!! It would be an abomination to call him a troll lest one desecrates the word 'troll'!!

Some of his "statements"
A true beauty - 


> *You are forcing me to see it in your own lens but I am merely dissecting your claims so that you can prove your claims and see it in another view.*


- remember Baghdad Bob or even Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns"?



> *how much RCS is increased compared to a super huge delta wing*
> 
> *SU-30MKI is a static canard.*
> 
> *You cannot even develop &#8216;simple&#8217; dynamic canards yet you talk about LEVCON, which is btw an Indian acronym.*

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## gubbi

Han Warrior said:


> Thank you for correcting me, I had no idea what a glass cockpit was. In my terminology, we use digitize control display, where gauges were replaced by MFDs. Since I gave a wrong term, does it make LCA super duper gen 4.5 now? =)


 
No no. LCA has a all plastic cockpit. Indian technology is not advanced enough to put all 'glass cockpit' in LCA. We dont have the technology to mold glass as we can mold plastics. Also, with plastic we dont have to worry about cooling the cockpit to keep glass cool. But engine heat is a problem for plastic cockpit!

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## rudrakx

hello People, it's OT but I would like to clear something here,
Having consultant to develop particular technology doesn't mean that they provide technology or path breaking suggestions, they keep it for themselves ! Mostly What they would do is to tell you whether the research (the process) is going in right direction or not and suggest the testing required.

AeroIndia 2009: LCA Programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, PS subramanyam. (Domain-b)


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## timba

This kid han is suffering from attention deficite hyperactivity disorder..perhaps No one in bhuthan likes him ..


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Thank you for correcting me, I had no idea what a glass cockpit was. In my terminology, we use digitize control display, where gauges were replaced by MFDs. Since I gave a wrong term, does it make LCA super duper gen 4.5 now? =)


 
You just get it now? You have no idea what you have been talking about all this time. If you want to argue about the disadvantages of delta-canards with modern powerful engines why don't you first read about the 1991 Gripen test flight crash. This is important as it was the time when the LA design was still in the drawing board and was entering wind tunnel stage.

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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> You just get it now? You have no idea what you have been talking about all this time. If you want to argue about the disadvantages of delta-canards with modern powerful engines why don't you first read about the 1991 Gripen test flight crash. This is important as it was the time when the LA design was still in the drawing board and was entering wind tunnel stage.



Sorry too many Indian warriors to answer now. Me not knowing what a glass cockpit term does not mean my other arguments are irrelevant or I did not know what I was talking about. If you are confident then refute my statements. Simple as that, correct it as you want. This is an open discussion right? No point harping on that terminological error and then discredit me. 

Why don't you read about the M2K crash. So now, you are saying LCA design went to a more primitive one because a more advanced one crashed? Which one is it? They didn't adopt canards because of :



1) RCS increment?
2) Complexity in maintenance and control
3) Gripen crashed?

So they were afraid to implement that design due to confidence issues? How about the advancement of control systems after that crashed? Ever think about that?


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## Han Patriot

gubbi said:


> No no. LCA has a all plastic cockpit. Indian technology is not advanced enough to put all 'glass cockpit' in LCA. We dont have the technology to mold glass as we can mold plastics. Also, with plastic we dont have to worry about cooling the cockpit to keep glass cool. But engine heat is a problem for plastic cockpit!



Chill Gubbi,

I think plastics wise, India is OK. MFDs? I don't think so. Heat would be a problem for plastics... LOL


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## rockstarIN

satishkumarcsc said:


> You just get it now? You have no idea what you have been talking about all this time. If you want to argue about the disadvantages of delta-canards with modern powerful engines why don't you first read about the 1991 Gripen test flight crash. This is important as it was the time when the LA design was still in the drawing board and was entering wind tunnel stage.


 
Leave this kid alone, ignore it. It is PDF, he would have banned had he trolled like this in JFT sticky forum


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Sorry too many Indian warriors to answer now. Me not knowing what a glass cockpit term does not mean my other arguments are irrelevant or I did not know what I was talking about. If you are confident then refute my statements. Simple as that, correct it as you want. This is an open discussion right? No point harping on that terminological error and then discredit me.
> 
> Why don't you read about the M2K crash. So now, you are saying LCA design went to a more primitive one because a more advanced one crashed? Which one is it? They didn't adopt canards because of :
> 
> 
> 
> 1) RCS increment?
> 2) Complexity in maintenance and control
> 3) Gripen crashed?
> 
> So they were afraid to implement that design due to confidence issues? How about the advancement of control systems after that crashed? Ever think about that?


 
Accidents and incidents involving the JAS 39 Gripen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I couldnt find the crash report of the Gripen test flights during its development period as it has been removed from internet. It was said to be because of the slower stall speeds earlier. 

I was refuting your statements and all you could answer was some bullcrap. You have the slightest idea of what are the advantages and disadvantages of pure delta, delta canards and a cranked delta and cropped delta.

As quoted by the cheif of DRDO the LCA has opened up only 85% of it's flight envelope. And you have started comparing with an in-service aircraft with export orders made by a company that hass aready designed and deployed 2 succesful aircrafts earlier.

The M2K also has canards albeit small ones but was sufficient to increase the AoA. The M2K uses a pure delta configuration with the M-53-P2 engine that delivers a 95 KN thust. 

Yes those factors mentioned above was the major reasons that the ADA decided to not go with canards. LCA was envisaged to be a PDF not a multi-role fighter. By reducing the sweep of the leading edge of the wing the surface area can be increased thus giving the aircraft better lift and a lower stall speed and also decreasing the wing-loadingand increase the wing area.

THe LCA was a low cost aircraft and the lo end of the IAF. It performs everything that it was supposed to perform better than what was required in the first ASQR. So why dont you read some basic physics before tyou come and start talking aerodynamics to me...starting with Bernoulli's effect would be a good yard stick


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## satishkumarcsc

rockstar said:


> Leave this kid alone, ignore it. It is PDF, he would have banned had he trolled like this in JFT sticky forum


 
Thanks man...but his ignorance got on my nerves.


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## Han Patriot

gubbi said:


> I love this guy - Han Warrior!
> 
> Its amazing how he comes up with such interesting claims, which to be fair, not even the worst trolls intent on derailing could come up with!! It would be an abomination to call him a troll lest one desecrates the word 'troll'!!
> 
> Some of his "statements"
> A true beauty -
> 
> - remember Baghdad Bob or even Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns"?


 

I was asking him what is LEVCON, why is he claiming it to be more superior, how much more superior? Why was he saying dynamic canards were 'simple' and yet India couldn't even develop controls for delta yet alone a 'simple' caanrd? If you know, then enlighten us.


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## Han Patriot

> I was refuting your statements and all you could answer was some bullcrap. You have the slightest idea of what are the advantages and disadvantages of pure delta, delta canards and a cranked delta and cropped delta.



The point I was making is why did all of those major aircraft manufacturers whose previous generation were using pure deltas evolve into canard delta. Explain it. You can claim more RCS with canards, but I explained to you the irrelevance. You can claim LCA is cranked delta. I asked how do you define cranked delta? No one is answering me yet. 



> As quoted by the cheif of DRDO the LCA has opened up only 85% of it's flight envelope. And you have started comparing with an in-service aircraft with export orders made by a company that hass aready designed and deployed 2 succesful aircrafts earlier.



Well, I just said it was copied from Mirage 2000 base on two known facts. 

1) It looks like a Mirage.
2) Dassault was involved.

Again, this is circumstantial evidence. Can you prove otherwise? This is your national plane here, you need to defend it. =)

Performance wise, how should I know. M2K had been in service for so long, LCA is not even inducted. It could be worse than a 40 year old plane? No one knows. Read my statements properly. I never ever once said it had the same performance as M2K.

Again, just because M2K crashed, you still went along with a pure delta design anyway. You get my point? Just because Gripen crash, you could still go along and develop better controls.




> The M2K also has canards albeit small ones but was sufficient to increase the AoA. The M2K uses a pure delta configuration with the M-53-P2 engine that delivers a 95 KN thust.



OO, now we have baby canards. Can you provide me with a picture showing where it is?



> Yes those factors mentioned above was the major reasons that the ADA decided to not go with canards. LCA was envisaged to be a PDF not a multi-role fighter. By reducing the sweep of the leading edge of the wing the surface area can be increased thus giving the aircraft better lift and a lower stall speed and also decreasing the wing-loadingand increase the wing area.



Did you just admit that ADA didn't have the capability nor confidence to 'design' canard based aircraft. This is all I wanted to hear. Thank You. I don't care about the function, what I want to know is why you didn't go with canards. Your friend gave all super duper characteristics for pure deltas vs canards but the real reason is ability isn't it? LOL


Your friend just said LCA had same function as Gripen and Gripen is a Multirole aircraft. Again, answer my two questions. Why if pure deltas are so good, NONE of the majors which includes Russia, America and Europe are using it except LCA? You see any new development with pure deltas?



> THe LCA was a low cost aircraft and the lo end of the IAF. It performs everything that it was supposed to perform better than what was required in the first ASQR. So why dont you read some basic physics before tyou come and start talking aerodynamics to me...starting with Bernoulli's effect would be a good yard stick.



Your other bhais seem to think it was a gen 4.5 aircraft. You call that lo end? No point getting personal. I am again just dissecting your statements. Let me restate my questions:

1) Why did major delta users change to canards? Example Dassault/Saab?
2) Why is LCA termed a Mig-21+ aircraft by your ACM when your bhais call it a modern super duper gen 4.5 aircraft?
3) IF it indigenous, what was Dassault doing there?

Answer it. Defend you nation my dear jawans. Your reputation is at stake. LOL


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## satishkumarcsc

If you dont know that the Mirage 2000 has canards then i dont think i have time to talk with you...


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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> If you dont know that the Mirage 2000 has canards then i dont think i have time to talk with you...


 
Thanks for the info. So now is mirage a pure delta or delta canard? Your post says it is a pure delta? I am confused now. =)


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Thanks for the info. So now is mirage a pure delta or delta canard? Your post says it is a pure delta? I am confused now. =)



The delta wing of the mirage is a pure delta...when coupled with canard it gives higher AoA...now get it...I was talking about the wing planform alone not the canard


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## kingdurgaking

Han Warrior said:


> Performance wise, how should I know. M2K had been in service for so long, LCA is not even inducted. It could be worse than a 40 year old plane? No one knows. Read my statements properly. I never ever once said it had the same performance as M2K.


 
The only good thing about Mirage i could see is its power plant which is far ahead of tejas.... rest it had evolved slowly from several iterations.. because of several problem it has faced... and finally it is in the stage that it has exhibited the maximum out of it

You need to compare it with ideal powerplant to see the performance of Tejas which will exceed Mirage or equalize NG at any day.....

Mk2 will hose good power plant with some aerodynamic changes .... In addition it is going to have more internal fuel and more payload exceeding the MTOW of Mirage...


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## sancho

Han Warrior said:


> You are forcing me to see it in your own lens but I am merely dissecting your claims so that you can prove your claims and see it in another view.



Not really, I am asking you to listen to others and try to understand, instead of flaming based only on your opinions, but that's obvioulsy not in your interest, isnt it?




Han Warrior said:


> I do not have to understand why LCA has no canards, I need to understand *why most major 4 gen planes have canards* like J-10. Simple as that.



Which besides beeing small minded, is also factually wrong, because neither the 4th gen US teen fighters, nor most of the comparable Russian 4th gen fighters has canards. Canards doesn't define a fighter generations, like you wrongly assume. 




Han Warrior said:


> Americans/Russians not using canards does not mean deltas are better. I dont seem to see any modern American/Russian planes with deltas either. On the other hand the Europeans had delta planes and moved on to Canards. Do you understand my argument. I am arguing canard against obsolete pure delta.



First of all, there is another major mistake in your logic, because you have to differe between wing design and canards. You can add canards to any wing design with the same aim, to improve maneuverability. So when you compare the pros and cons of the delta wing design, you have to compare it with the wing designs of the other fighters, not with the canards. 

Secondly, American/Russian has not developed modern fighters with delta wings?

*Mig 1.42*








*Boeing X-32*







Both delta wing fighters that were developed about the same time (late 80s, early 90s) as the European delta wing fighters, or the Israeli Lavi and they wasn't rejected because of the wing design, but other disadvantages they had. Not to mention that all new UCAV developments have delta wing designs as well, be it European, Russian, US, Chinese, or Indian. 




Han Warrior said:


> Arent you contradicting yourself, you tell me LCA was developed for low RCS and now you are going to apply LEVCON canards to it? So which is which? So LEVCON does not increase RCS? Right!



Again you prove your lack of knowledge and understanding, because the LEVCONS will be added only on N-LCA, for specific reasons. They will be added to increase the low speed performance for carrier landings (same reason why J 15 has canards and J11 have not). Try to understand the aim behind it first, before you run into your (often wrong) conlusions!


It's pointless to argue with you any longer, because you have your preconceived (mainly wrong) opinions and refuse to see even the basic facts, no matter what we will explain you. So remain with your believes, but please don't derail the thread any longer!

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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> The delta wing of the mirage is a pure delta...when coupled with canard it gives higher AoA...now get it...I was talking about the wing planform alone not the canard


 
Friend,

Canards are wings too. Delta is a shape. The problem now arises, how do you classify M2K? Officially as per Dassault, it is still primarily defined as a delta wing aircraft. Or are you gonna classify it as delta back wing, frontal canard which is shortformed as delta canard? How big of a canard you need to have to qualify as a canard, what is the slant? The term are all ambigious and ill-defined.


See my point here, all aircraft have small slight differences but you cannot deny the fact that Mirage 2000 is similar to LCA. I can understand if the case was without Dassault involvement. I can't find any aircraft that looks like LCA except Mirage-2000. Can you find one?


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## Han Patriot

kingdurgaking said:


> The only good thing about Mirage i could see is its power plant which is far ahead of tejas.... rest it had evolved slowly from several iterations.. because of several problem it has faced... and finally it is in the stage that it has exhibited the maximum out of it
> 
> You need to compare it with ideal powerplant to see the performance of Tejas which will exceed Mirage or equalize NG at any day.....
> 
> Mk2 will hose good power plant with some aerodynamic changes .... In addition it is going to have more internal fuel and more payload exceeding the MTOW of Mirage...


 
Don't count the chicken before the eggs hatch. An upgraded Mirage-2000 could be better than LCA, who knows. First, induct the plane and make it indigenously, then talk.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

Han Warrior said:


> Don't count the chicken before the eggs hatch. An upgraded Mirage-2000 could be better than LCA, who knows. First, induct the plane and make it indigenously, then talk.



How many times we will have to tell you that LCA has already achieved IOC.8 are in service


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## Han Patriot

> Which besides beeing small minded, is also factually wrong, because neither the 4th gen US teen fighters, nor most of the comparable Russian 4th gen fighters has canards. Canards doesn't define a fighter generations, like you wrongly assume.


My big minded friend,

When did I ever said anything about 4th gen aircraft being canards only. I was asking why major pure delta wing users were evolving into delta canard based aircraft users. Again, let me define some terms here:

Frontal wing canard, with delta back wing = delta canard.
Only delta wing without any canard wings = pure delta.

Since you can&#8217;t define a cranked delta nor a compound delta properly, LCA is no different from another pure delta like Mirage-2000. Again, read my previous argument, all planes have tiny twitches which includes a slight notch to LCA wings and a baby &#8216;canard&#8217; for Mirage-2000. Yet, officially M2K is still classified as delta winged .

My previous argument is about two things.

1) The advantages of delta canard configuration versus pure deltas
2) The real reason delta canard was&#8217;t adopted by LCA

It is pretty obvious with an addition of a canard, the agility and maneuverability is increased but so does the instability, which is also why it is highly maneuverable in the first place, hence with an advanced control system, we can reduce this disadvantage while getting the most out of it. By the way we are talking about dynamic canards here as in those canards that can twist and turn ala J-10.

Previously, it was pointed out that although deltas lacked in agility and maneuverability, it was simple and hence had less maintenance. I rebutted this and said that in that case, ADA should have used propeller planes instead since jet engines are complex. The point here is India did not dare to experiment new technology nor had the ability and hence it claimed it was bad. Like the fox who claimed the grape was sour because it could&#8217;t eat it.

On the other hand, as admitted by your compatriot, ADA did not have the balls nor the expertise to design such an advanced aircraft of that era. So, it stuck with the conventional delta with Dassault &#8216;advice&#8217;.


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## Han Patriot

> First of all, there is another major mistake in your logic, because you have to differe between wing design and canards. You can add canards to any wing design with the same aim, to improve maneuverability. So when you compare the pros and cons of the delta wing design, you have to compare it with the wing designs of the other fighters, not with the canards.
> 
> Secondly, American/Russian has not developed modern fighters with delta wings?



First of all, understand my argument first before pouncing on. Canards are wings too, one is frontal and one is back or one is the main wing and one the sub wing. Delta is a SHAPE, the same DELTA in your formulas.

When I say delta winged, it automatically means a pure delta design as opposed to a delta canard design. The picture you shown is a delta canard design, the freaking same design your ADA and fellow compatriot opposed. Comprehendo?

I didn&#8217;t know X-32 which lost the JSF was an operational aircraft? LOL. In that case Mig-1.44 was operational too right ? And Russia had delta canards in operations?

READ THIS 



> The two X-32 prototypes featured a delta wing design, which was chosen to minimize production manufacturing costs. However, eight months into construction of the prototypes, the JSF's maneuverability and payload requirements were refined at the request of the Navy and Boeing's delta wing design fell short of the new targets. Engineers put together a new design with a conventional tail (narrowly beating out a Pelikan tail) with reduced weight and improved agility, but it was too late to change the prototypes. It was judged that they would be sufficient to demonstrate Boeing's technology.[4]



This was what it became >









> Not to mention that all new UCAV developments have delta wing designs as well, be it European, Russian, US, Chinese, or Indian.



You have to understand that UCAV are meant to be long range stealth bombers, not air superiority fighters. Canards do increase RCS whereas your UCAV are meant to be stealthy. You want to try putting a Rafale and a UCAV in a dogfight? The point is LCA is not a UCAV nor a long range bomber nor stealthy, it was meant to be a fighter.



> So when you compare the pros and cons of the *delta wing design*, you have to compare it with the *wing designs *of the other fighters, not with *the canards*.



LOL. You are a genius. I rest my case.

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## Han Patriot

> Again you prove your lack of knowledge and understanding, because the LEVCONS will be added only on N-LCA, for specific reasons. They will be added to increase the low speed performance for carrier landings (same reason why J 15 has canards and J11 have not). Try to understand the aim behind it first, before you run into your (often wrong) conlusions!


Seriously, when I don&#8217;t know something, I will admit it. What is this LEVCON? The point is this, if LCA was designed to reduce RCS and the main reason of rejecting the canards was due to this, then why are you again adding LEVCON that increases RCS? I was pointing out the contradictions. Do you understand? 

This further proves my point that canards were so called &#8216;rejected&#8217; not due to RCS issues since what difference does it make to LCA which is pretty much a big DOT on the radar anyway. RCS reduction was just an excuse for incompetence. No idea on the performance of canards for carriers, but if you said it is good then thanks. Why then is&#8217;t your LCA having one now? Why you had to reject it and then go for it later? RCS reduction or just the lack of ability? Naval LCA don't have to be 'strealthy'? LOL. Indian logics....

And please explain to me how LEVCON is supposedly more advance than dynamic canards? You know the sort used by Rafale and J-10 and Gripen? Since you are claiming &#8216;future&#8217; LCA with LEVCON is more advanced than simple dynamic canards right ? Which indirectly translates into LCA > Rafale.


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## shrivatsa

LEVCON- Leading Edge Vortex CONtroller


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Friend,
> 
> Canards are wings too. Delta is a shape. The problem now arises, how do you classify M2K? Officially as per Dassault, it is still primarily defined as a delta wing aircraft. Or are you gonna classify it as delta back wing, frontal canard which is shortformed as delta canard? How big of a canard you need to have to qualify as a canard, what is the slant? The term are all ambigious and ill-defined.
> 
> 
> 
> See my point here, all aircraft have small slight differences but you cannot deny the fact that Mirage 2000 is similar to LCA. I can understand if the case was without Dassault involvement. I can't find any aircraft that looks like LCA except Mirage-2000. Can you find one?


 
Well readd your own post...and ou can comprehend from it...canard is not an additional wing..it is just an additional control surface. It makes use of the wind flow vortices on the leading edge of the wings to actuate the aircrat in it's pitch and Yaw axis. 

Well if you want to find a similar aircraft there have been a lot more. you can try reading about Avro 707 which was a TD in 1950s that led to the development of Avro Vulcan, or u can try the canadair avro.


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Seriously, when I don&#8217;t know something, I will admit it. What is this LEVCON? The point is this, if LCA was designed to reduce RCS and the main reason of rejecting the canards was due to this, then why are you again adding LEVCON that increases RCS? I was pointing out the contradictions. Do you understand?
> 
> This further proves my point that canards were so called &#8216;rejected&#8217; not due to RCS issues since what difference does it make to LCA which is pretty much a big DOT on the radar anyway. RCS reduction was just an excuse for incompetence. No idea on the performance of canards for carriers, but if you said it is good then thanks. Why then is&#8217;t your LCA having one now? Why you had to reject it and then go for it later? RCS reduction or just the lack of ability? Naval LCA don't have to be 'strealthy'? LOL. Indian logics....
> 
> And please explain to me how LEVCON is supposedly more advance than dynamic canards? You know the sort used by Rafale and J-10 and Gripen? Since you are claiming &#8216;future&#8217; LCA with LEVCON is more advanced than simple dynamic canards right ? Which indirectly translates into LCA > Rafale.


 
If you want to see levcons PAKFA has levcons. It is a movable LERX.


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## desimorty

> My argument was mirage 2000 and tejas are almost completely identical and this was further reinforced by the fact that Dassault was the consultant.
> :


Your argument has little or no basis. Just because the Tejas and mirage 2000 lack canards. Great. 
But the reality isn't what YOU make of it.
The research and development of the Tejas is a mixture of the technologies available since the late 80's. The Tejas unlike the mirage 2000 is highly unstable unlike the mirage 2000, which is why it has reduced top speeds. 


> 1) Claiming it as indigenous.
> 2) Claiming it as bleeding edge.
> 3) Claiming it as being comparable to Gripen and F-16XL. See quote below of you claiming it with same performance as Gripen.
> 4) Claiming that an Indian was the 'DESIGNER' of F-16XL.
> 
> I have something to gain when I dissect your argument and find the flaws, but you did not gain anything if you had not seen the reality of the LCA. If all Indians think like you, the trend will continue where more and more things are imported and no indigenous capabilities are developed. Indians will forever be oblivious to the fact that they actually do not possess any real indigenous capability and keep on living in denial. If your own ACM can call it Mig-21+ and yet you keep on trumpeting it as 4.5 gen. I have nothing to say but to congratulate Indians.


and indian was part of the development of the f-16xl. you want to spin my words around than your an ignorant idoit.
I didn't cliam anything like a 4.5 gen aircraft. you brought it up.
You chinese like to cliam everything is china is super power, if it was the Pakistani's wouldn't have modified the jf-17 and the Type 90. THey are not buying chinese things as is. Because we all know the truth.


> And may I ask how did you know all these? OO, tphuang told you that and he &#8216;speculated&#8217; it? So this is your source, an online dude with a nickname called tphuang. Hey, my real name is Vivek and I have a relative&#8217;s relative who works in DRDO and he told me LCA is bleeding edge.


tphuang is chinese who acted just like because he has no real evidence of anything. so he kept repeating that the j-10 is 4.5 generation with a payload of 6 tons. all off baseless speculating just like you.


> I know what is HMDS. You were the one thinking LCA was cool with it, but I was telling you the point is you have to make them. And J-10 has got HMDS too. WE MAKE THEM!!!! Only ELBIT makes them? You need to learn more and know more. No point having it on LCA and not making them&#8230;comprehendo?


Helmet mounted display sight (HMDS) differs from HMS which is just a targeting input device on use first on the mig29 usually heat guided.
HMDS is whats used on the jsf project and replaces the convientional HUD. The tejas uses the same but keeps the HUD as well. 
If china produces HMDS great, but i highly doubt it does.


> You claim LCA had nearly the same capability as Gripen and then you claim LCA has got oxy gen but not Gripen. If this is not boasting, what else can I say. And then I prove to you Gripen has got oxy gen and then you come back to me and tell me about OBOGS and GRIPEN A.


Yes, as i said. THe gripen A does not have onboard oxgyen generator, the C varients will recieve it.
Call it boasting. But what your doing for your self is exactly that.


> 1) Gripen A has yet to receive OBOGS?
> 2) Gripen has yet to receive OBOGS.
> 
> Either way, Gripen A was upgraded to to C/D standards, so all Gripens now have OBOGS. How can you say Gripen has &#8216;YET&#8217; to receive OBOGS. And at which phase did LCA get OBOGS? I could say the initial test LCA had no radars and has yet to receive radars in the same manner. The point is you are comparing an aircraft in production blocks to an aircraft which has not even been inducted. If this is not living in Bollywood land. Who else is?


You know i just fixed 2 mistakes of yours and probabily more.
This tells me that you don't do your research. YOu rant.
If you didn't know that the gripen does not have OBAGs thats your problem. Im not going to clarify for an idoit who twists my words.
And Tejas is inducted. Like the Rafale, who recently just recieved full operation clearence the Tejas is on its way. Theres a difference of induction and actually being operational. But in the mean time one can compare, because as it stands, I pointed out a difference.
So prove to me that the J-10 has HMDS? otherwise your not informed and your just an idoit. 


> 1) LCA was based on Mirage 2000 design with Dassault involvement.
> 2) LCA performance does not equate Mirage 2000. Could be worse?
> 3) Why was there an evolution away from delta? Any other new modern Gen 4 or 5 planes with delta?
> 4) There is no clear definition that qualifies LCA as a &#8216;cranked delta&#8217;.


1. no , no no...the tejas was based off the earlier project 1.4 (if that is the correct project designation) which is very similar to the Gripen. The UK was in the initial concept of the project but bailed when the needs where for a heavier aircraft and the Typhoon emerged. That earlier project with canards went fundemental wing changes. The aircraft was given a larger compound delta wing with a slight crank to it. Evolved to what is no the Tejas. Your entire point isn't to discredit ADA but to make the LCA sound obsolete. That is your true intention. With out actually understanding it.
The mirage 2000 design was not used. Had it been used, the Tejas would have wings placed lower to the body instead of what you see now, where the wings are mounted to above the instakes. The readers can not that the Mirage 2k has its wings below the intakes.
2) because you said so? given your limited knowledge, i think id trust the pilots of the Tejas who said the handling capabilities of the tejas are superior to the mirage.
because you said so the j-10 is super advanced even though you know less about the aircraf than myself. 
3) there was no evolution away from delta.
You see deltas in the raptor with tails, in the typhoon with a revolutionary canard. Delta is a type of of wing. Weather it has tails or canards does not matter because the wing is very common.
4) you got that right. Thats what was said by LCA project member who happened to say it.
Aside from all this , your a troll.
Here are some facts.
wing loading and thrust per aircraft as per wiki, and sinodefence as well as avaition monthly
j-10 =335 kg/m^2 thats awfully not that great
thrust to weight=0.98 
maximum speed= mach 2
usefull load = 4.5 tons down from a PLA fan boy speculated 6 tons. lol
mirage 2000 = 337 thats awfully not that great
thrust to weight = .91 
f-16 =431
thrust to weight =1.095
max speed = mach 2
gripen D <--- just so you know cause your a ignorant
wing loading =283
thrust to weight 0.97
max speed mach 2
rafale wing loading 306
thrust to weight 1.1
max speed mach 2
Tejas
wing loading 221.4
thrust to weight 0.91
max speed mach 1.6

now you might wanna note that the goal has been to have a low wing loading.
The tejas has achieved it. But the other guys wanted extra agility, expecially the typhoon, which had to reduce the wing area for the special canards.
Having no room for large canards like the typhoon and rafale means the tejas isn't as agile in the air but doesn't mean its less than a mirage or a jf17
The Gripen and Tejas are the 2 aircraft to note.
Both have nearly the same dimensions.
Considering weight, wing area and engine.
But ones max speed is mach 2 while the other a modest 1.6.
One might assume its because the tejas design is so flawed that it created drag. but that is actually the case. Its no a flaw but a design. "Staticaly" Unstable. While the gripen is is unstable because of its large canards, the tejas wings are unstable all the time. Which means it create large amounts of lift all the time and needs the fbw to fly.
Even to myself this logic is sound but its hell of a lot better than yours.


> That&#8217;s the point isn&#8217;t it? Smaller aircraft has got smaller RCS. So, why are blurting so much about it as a LCA advantage. L-15 is a small trainer and has got smaller RCS. What difference does it make?
> You mean the radar can&#8217;t detect LCA? What advantage does it imbue? If it is out of your knowledge, then don&#8217;t blurt it out. Don&#8217;t talk just for the sake of talking.
> 
> If both a Mig-29 and LCA were flying, most radars would pick up both aircrafts. Comprehendo? So do you still want to point out RCS reduction as a super duper LCA design characteristic?


Comprehendo you super genuis because RCS is not relevant expecially the type on the j-20 which is super stealth like the f-22. and rafale was designed with no RCS in mind! right! comprendo!


> Let me correct my statement, you didn&#8217;t even have the ability to design the controls for a delta aircraft. FBW is from Lockheed, composites from the Swedes, glass, no idea. I think most aircraft used glass as cockpit material right? Or you can show me an example of plastic cockpit. You &#8216;conceived&#8217; LCA back before Rafale was having the first flight. You think the French would offer you state of the art technology? Don&#8217;t be so naïve.


fbw is indian in ADA. unlike your fc-1 which is c+
compisotes built in India with Italian machinary.
thats why the French want to sell ToT and so do the Europeans with their Typhoons and Rafales right?
India is not in the same position as China.


> Indians are the only ones claiming it has got the same Multi-role function as Gripen. But again, compare the weapons load and performance, can it &#8216;ACHIEVE&#8217; that claim? Features, hey J-10 supposedly has got the same features as SU-30MKI too, are they the same? And best of all most stuff is made in China.


really
Besides HDMS the j-10 has a 8 ton payload and high endurance? hmmmm i believe you cause China superpower!


> My original point was to dismiss your claim that LCA is having advantage by being lighter. Smaller, more agile, less RCS. If this was the case, L-15 is smaller, more agile and also less RCS. And your previous statement of making comparison with J-10, Mig-29 and Gripen wing loading. When you yourself admit the performance of Gripen compared to LCA cannot be verified. How does your supposedly advantages be relevant. You are comparing poodle to a bulldog.


yes. Lighter is better.
Thats why you are charged for your extra luggage on flights. Having more thrust to weight is better too.
HMDS for all, put it on your fc-1 for pakistan!
for all


> Haha, so now you claim it lacks critical components to be operational. So how can you verify it can do it&#8217;s task when you don&#8217;t even have the critical components. Am I wrong in claiming it to be a half baked foreign designed and made plane? What is indigenous? So in essence, because LCA is not achieving it&#8217;s supposedly design role, it is now no more advanced than a Mig-21 Bison? I didn&#8217;t say it, you just did. LOL. OMG!! This is funny.
> 
> Let me summarize my claims:
> 
> 1) You have not proven to me LCA is indigenous.
> 2) You just admit it is half baked.


theres a differnce between induction and operational.
like i said. just recently the rafale has just opened up all its flight envolopes.


> 1) The aircraft is foreign
> 2) The design is outdated.


the j-10 is forign. and out dated.
look at the metal! and rivits! the RCS must be huge! the engine must burn a lot of fuel!
but it still has HMDS! right! superpower china

Super power China!
HDMS, thrust vectoring! for all J-10s!

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## BATMAN

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> How many times we will have to tell you that LCA has already achieved IOC.8 are in service



To be in Service you have to produce them first! what is the production rate?

I see UCAV being discussed!!!!!!! did i missed some thing?


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## desimorty

> To be in Service you have to produce them first! what is the production rate?


not really.
Initial operational clearance says that they are in service but thats just talk or as people would say, fancy talk. and every military has there own dictionary
IOC is fancy talk, for we will hand these over to the IAF so they can figure out how and when to use them. much like the rafale and typhoon.
The tejas is waiting on a lot of research still.
It is no where near combat ready.

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## Nirvana

BATMAN said:


> To be in Service you have to produce them first! what is the production rate?
> 
> I see UCAV being discussed!!!!!!! did i missed some thing?


 
They are Under production.

Btw every time you post Non - sense About LCA and call it Teja - I think you are Jealous


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## Water Car Engineer

shrivatsa said:


> LEVCON- Leading Edge Vortex CONtroller


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## desimorty

> You have to understand that UCAV are meant to be long range stealth bombers, not air superiority fighters. Canards do increase RCS whereas your UCAV are meant to be stealthy. You want to try putting a Rafale and a UCAV in a dogfight? The point is LCA is not a UCAV nor a long range bomber nor stealthy, it was meant to be a fighter.


and how. it does it well don't you think.
with a lower rcs than the other combat aircraft except a few. The tejas has achieved some manufacturing milestones for a country like India.








this video shows you how the compisotes are made in india.

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## kingdurgaking

Han Warrior said:


> Don't count the chicken before the eggs hatch. An upgraded Mirage-2000 could be better than LCA, who knows. First, induct the plane and make it indigenously, then talk.


 
So you cant debate on your points right.. an upgraded Mirage??.. An upgraded mirage cant have more MTOW... it will had only avionics.. which is already in LCA... right now LCA is lacking in thrust.. which is addressed.. it will have more MTOW and good thrust/weight.. 

B.t.w ... dont rant saying induct and make it indigenous... you know and we know...


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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well readd your own post...and ou can comprehend from it...canard is not an additional wing..it is just an additional control surface. It makes use of the wind flow vortices on the leading edge of the wings to actuate the aircrat in it's pitch and Yaw axis.
> 
> Well if you want to find a similar aircraft there have been a lot more. you can try reading about Avro 707 which was a TD in 1950s that led to the development of Avro Vulcan, or u can try the canadair avro.



Satish,

This is the definition of canard :



> Also called canard *wing* . one of two small lifting wings located in front of the main wings


Canard | Define Canard at Dictionary.com


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## satishkumarcsc

Mate Canard is a french word...which means duck..

In aeronautics, canard (French for duck) is an airframe configuration of fixed-wing aircraft in which the forward surface is smaller than the rearward, the former being known as the "canard", while the latter is the main wing.

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------

There are 2 types of canards namely the lifting canard and the control canard...the ones you see i Fighters are control canards.

If you want to know more about lifting canard you can read about MiG 8 Utka. Close coupled canards are used in IAI Kfir, and thhe SAAB Viggen


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## Han Patriot

BATMAN said:


> To be in Service you have to produce them first! what is the production rate?
> 
> I see UCAV being discussed!!!!!!! did i missed some thing?



Well, after saying it is 4.5 gen some are equating it to UCAV. LOL


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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> Mate Canard is a french word...which means duck..
> 
> In aeronautics, canard (French for duck) is an airframe configuration of fixed-wing aircraft in which the forward surface is smaller than the rearward, the former being known as the "canard", while the latter is the *main wing*.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
> 
> There are 2 types of canards namely the lifting canard and the control canard...the ones you see i Fighters are control canards.
> 
> If you want to know more about lifting canard you can read about MiG 8 Utka. Close coupled canards are used in IAI Kfir, and thhe SAAB Viggen


 
Hey don't argue with me, argue with the dictionary. It says it is a wing. I rest my case. Don't have to overwhelm the post with Kfir, SAAB bla bla bla. The point is the dictionary just said that. See the word 'main wing' in your wikipedia source?

If there is only one wing, why do you need a main wing? You mean we can't control wings?


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## satishkumarcsc

ca·nard (k-närd)
n.
1. An unfounded or false, deliberately misleading story.
2.
a. A short *winglike* *control surface* projecting from the fuselage of an aircraft, such as a space shuttle, mounted forward of the main wing and *serving as a horizontal stabilizer.*
b. An aircraft whose horizontal stabilizing surfaces are forward of the main wing.

canard - definition of canard by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

*a false or baseless, usually derogatory story, report, or rumor.* that also means canard...and now i see your obesession with *canard*. 
So what do you say about this?

a small wing-like projection attached to an aircraft forward of the main wing to provide extra stability or control, sometimes replacing the tail. 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/canard

You still needmore dictionaries for reference?


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## Han Patriot

> Your argument has little or no basis. Just because the Tejas and mirage 2000 lack canards. Great.
> But the reality isn't what YOU make of it.
> The research and development of the Tejas is a mixture of the technologies available since the late 80's. The Tejas unlike the mirage 2000 is highly unstable unlike the mirage 2000, which is why it has reduced top speeds.



You can believe whatever you want, but the point is until now you havent address my questions. You know, there is a saying, the more you ask, the more you learn and the more your learn, the more you ask. Ist the new perspective I brought refreshing? Instead of continuously believing in DRDOs feel good propaganda, now you see things in a more critical manner.

Of course the LCA is not an exact replica of the M2K, but until now you still cant explain the involvement of Dassault and hell, the plane looks exactly like M2K? Again I restate the same question I asked over and over again, any plane that looks like the LCA other than the M2K? 



> and indian was part of the development of the f-16xl. you want to spin my words around than your an ignorant idoit.
> I didn't cliam anything like a 4.5 gen aircraft. you brought it up.
> You chinese like to cliam everything is china is super power, if it was the Pakistani's wouldn't have modified the jf-17 and the Type 90. THey are not buying chinese things as is. Because we all know the truth.



Now, now, now. Dont have to be frustrated just because you cant answer my question. Does it erode your confidence in India? LOL. Maybe you might have misunderstood, in my post I said Indians, and yes that might have included you. So I reckon you dont believe it is a gen 4.5 plane? BRAVO! At least you are sane on this. It is a Mig-21+ aircraft!

Can you tell me how much did Pakistan modified? What they modified? Why they modified? I heard SU-30MKI didt contain all Russian products either. What does this imply? I am not saying Chinese avionics are superior but I am saying they are not too far behind either. I heard India bought a few billion worth of advanced, state of the art, sophisticated ULTRA SUPER CRITICAL POWER EQUIPMENT from us. Again what does this imply? We are talking billions here.

Again I am repeating my question  who is this Indian involved in F-16XL? What was his involvement? Out of the hundreds of people involved, what is his role? 



> Helmet mounted display sight (HMDS) differs from HMS which is just a targeting input device on use first on the mig29 usually heat guided.
> HMDS is whats used on the jsf project and replaces the convientional HUD. The tejas uses the same but keeps the HUD as well.
> If china produces HMDS great, but i highly doubt it does.



Read this genius >



> A helmet mounted display (HMD) is a device used in some modern aircraft, especially combat aircraft. HMDs project information similar to that of head-up displays (HUD) on an aircrews visor or reticle, thereby allowing him to obtain situational awareness and/or cue weapons systems to the direction his head is pointing. Some applications refer to these devices as H*elmet Mounted Sight and Display (HMSD)* or *Helmet Mounted Sights *(HMS).


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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> ca·nard (k-närd)
> n.
> 1. An unfounded or false, deliberately misleading story.
> 2.
> a. A short *winglike* *control surface* projecting from the fuselage of an aircraft, such as a space shuttle, mounted forward of the main wing and *serving as a horizontal stabilizer.*
> b. An aircraft whose horizontal stabilizing surfaces are forward of the main wing.
> 
> canard - definition of canard by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
> 
> *a false or baseless, usually derogatory story, report, or rumor.* that also means canard...and now i see your obesession with *canard*.
> So what do you say about this?
> 
> a small wing-like projection attached to an aircraft forward of the main wing to provide extra stability or control, sometimes replacing the tail.
> 
> definition of canard from Oxford Dictionaries Online
> 
> You still needmore dictionaries for reference?


 
Again I am repeating my question, what does wing like mean?

1) It functions like a wing?
2) It looks like a wing?

I took my source from a dictionary calling it a wing. You took one calling it wing-like. And besides, notice the word main wing appearing over and over again? My point is again why do you need a main wing if you only have one wing? So don't argue with me, argue with the dictionary.

I am not obsessed with canards, but some here are claiming canards have insignificant purpose and we should only compare with the 'wings'. My point is they are wings, but not main wings. They function as controller and lifting structures. Aren't wings that can manipulate air flow wings? You mean wings are always static?


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Warrior said:


> Again I am repeating my question, what does wing like mean?
> 
> 1) It functions like a wing?
> 2) It looks like a wing?
> 
> I took my source from a dictionary calling it a wing. You took one calling it wing-like. And besides, notice the word main wing appearing over and over again? My point is again why do you need a main wing if you only have one wing? So don't argue with me, argue with the dictionary.
> 
> I am not obsessed with canards, but some here are claiming canards have insignificant purpose and we should only compare with the 'wings'. My point is they are wings, but not main wings. They function as controller and lifting structures. Aren't wings that can manipulate air flow wings? You mean wings are always static?


 
You ned to learn english! period!


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## desimorty

> Now, now, now. Dont have to be frustrated just because you cant answer my question. Does it erode your confidence in India? LOL. Maybe you might have misunderstood, in my post I said Indians, and yes that might have included you. So I reckon you dont believe it is a gen 4.5 plane? BRAVO! At least you are sane on this. It is a Mig-21+ aircraft!
> 
> Can you tell me how much did Pakistan modified? What they modified? Why they modified? I heard SU-30MKI didt contain all Russian products either. What does this imply? I am not saying Chinese avionics are superior but I am saying they are not too far behind either. I heard India bought a few billion worth of advanced, state of the art, sophisticated ULTRA SUPER CRITICAL POWER EQUIPMENT from us. Again what does this imply? We are talking billions here.
> 
> Again I am repeating my question  who is this Indian involved in F-16XL? What was his involvement? Out of the undreds of people involved, what is his role?


i don't know. but are your basis any better?
but why don't you take your logic and fill in the gaps.
but if the tejas got the nose canards which was a earlier concept for the naval version, i guess than it won't be a mirage right?
while the chinese can build a canard under military embargos,
indians can't build a canard, thats why they have a simple mirage
lol
maybe you should consider the difference in performance of the two. 
cause things can look the same but function differently in the air.
y

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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know which prototype the HMDS was intergrated? And will this be standard for ALL LCA (MK1+2)??

2.29:


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone know which prototype the HMDS was intergrated? And will this be standard for ALL LCA (MK1+2)?


 
Israeli Dash helmet is integrated now, but it's not clear if that will be the final version for all LCAs. Another possibility is the French Topsight HMS, that will be used by IAF upgraded Mirage 2000-5s and Mig 29 SMTs, as well from IN Mig 29Ks.


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## desimorty

The only HMDS avaliable on the market as of yet.


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## Abingdonboy

I believe it is the TopSight-I:















But regardless of which HMDS it is, is it assured the LCA will come with HMDS as standard? I would expect it as by then pretty much ALL IAF AC will have HMDS similar to above (MKI, UPG M2k, UPG MiG29, MMRCA, PAK-FA/FGFA, AMCA etc)

+ btw any more info/specs on above HMDS??


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## fast

satishkumarcsc said:


> You ned to learn english! period!


 
And you nEed to learn spelling!


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## SpArK

*ASPJs Developed For Tejas Mk1 & MiG-29UPG
​*

















The Ministry of Defence-owned Defence Research & Development Organisations Defence Avionics Research Establishment* (DARE) has developed a family of internally-mounted self-protection jammers in cooperation with Italys Elettronica for installation on board the upgraded MiG-29UPG and the Tejas Mk1 light combat aircraft. *

Being part of the integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS), the jammers are lightweight and compact, yet powerful, and are meant to be targetted against continuous wave (CW), pulse and pulse-Doppler emitters. At the heart of the capability is a digital, software reprogrammable radio frequency memory (DRFM) that is used to deceive and jam coherent multimode airborne radars. 

*The DRFM incorporates both the RF and memory sections required for digitising and storing signals of interest, as well as the techniques generator. On the MiG-29UPG, the jamming suite uses Elettronica of Italys Virgilius family of directional jammers, which make use of active phased-array transmitters for jamming hostile low-band (E-G) and high-band (G-J) emitters.

Other systems features include a wide- and narrow-band signals reception, monopulse amplitude direction-of-arrival, direction-finding, threat identification/classification capabilities, a multi-domain (range, velocity, noise and amplitude) techniques generator, CW and pulse repeater channels, a steerable combined output signal, interfaces for a countermeasures dispensing system, host platform avionics in-flight data recording for post-mission debriefing and maintenance, and field-programmable threat library*. 


The EW suites for both aircraft types receive emitter signals within the 2GHz to 18GHz band and transmit across the 6GHz to 17.5GHz frequency range. The MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) is presently series-producing the jamming suites as well as the related radar warning receivers.


*For escort jamming purposes, the Tejas Mk1 and MiG-29UPG are expected to be equipped with ELTA Systems EL/L-8251 jamming pod, which offers wide frequency coverage between 1GHz and 18GHz.*

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *For escort jamming purposes, the Tejas Mk1 and MiG-29UPG are expected to be equipped with ELTA Systems&#8217; EL/L-8251 jamming pod, which offers wide frequency coverage between 1GHz and 18GHz.*


 
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/9/36129.pdf


Interesting, but we should wait till there are more infos, or official reports for these articles. It would make more sense to use the MKI, or MMRCAs with such dedicated jamming pods in escort roles.

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## Black Widow

Please reply




IAF has ordered 40 LCA MKI, what is the status, till when the HAL will deliver these 40 birds (in phased manner), and is it possible that MK-II will be ready by the time Aseembly line will be free.?????


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/9/36129.pdf
> 
> 
> Interesting, but we should wait till there are more infos, or official reports for these articles. It would make more sense to use the MKI, or MMRCAs with such dedicated jamming pods in escort roles.


 
when Griphen can do?? why not LCA?


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## SpArK




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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


>


 
I don't understand why the IAF is waiting for Test aircraft? Wouldn't IAF active fighters be brand new LCAs not ex Test?


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## kingdurgaking

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't understand why the IAF is waiting for Test aircraft? Wouldn't IAF active fighters be brand new LCAs not ex Test?


 
LSP-7 & LSP-8 are the original Production configurations..... LSP-6 will be looked for enhancements and for further testing... After LSP-7 & 8 all the older one will be upgraded to the LSP-7 & 8 standards


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> when Griphen can do?? why not LCA?


 
Where is the Gripen doing escort jamming roles? Because we have more capable fighters in the fleet, that can carry a jammer, but also more fuel and weapons for such roles, not to mention the WSO on the backseat. The MKI, or a Su 34 are perfect for such roles!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Where is the Gripen doing escort jamming roles? Because we have more capable fighters in the fleet, that can carry a jammer, but also more fuel and weapons for such roles, not to mention the WSO on the backseat. The MKI, or a Su 34 are perfect for such roles!


 
agreed on capable fighter... Gripen is the only fighter in Sweden.. it will only do escort and jamming roles for them... they wont import separate fighter for that.. but only either escort or jamming for that mission... LCA similarly can do escort and jamming role alone... with 3 fuel tanks it can do that work alone more perfectly... even dedicated EW role may be assigned to LCA.. who knows...


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## GORKHALI




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## Abingdonboy

kingdurgaking said:


> LSP-7 & LSP-8 are the original Production configurations..... LSP-6 will be looked for enhancements and for further testing... After LSP-7 & 8 all the older one will be upgraded to the LSP-7 & 8 standards


 
Yes but what is was trying to ask is will ex-test a/c be inducted into full, active IAF service? And if so why? Shouldn't the IAF receive brand new fighters and ex-test planes be resigned to museums (for older lSP 1-3) or kept by HAL/ADA for testing further upgrades.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> agreed on capable fighter... Gripen is the only fighter in Sweden.. it will only do escort and jamming roles for them... they wont import separate fighter for that.. but only either escort or jamming for that mission... LCA similarly can do escort and jamming role alone... with 3 fuel tanks it can do that work alone more perfectly... even dedicated EW role may be assigned to LCA.. who knows...


 
Did not seen a Gripen with a jamming pod so far and AFAIK the only fighters in Europe with capable jamming and SEAD avionics are Tornados. When LCA carries 3 fuel tanks, where should it carry the jamiming pod, or are we talking about different things?

F18SH Growler with EW pods:







Su 34 with EW pods:







Su 30 MKI prototype with EW pod:







And a model of an Indian MKI with DARE EW equipments that Sudhir posted recently:


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## IndianArmy

kingdurgaking said:


> agreed on capable fighter... Gripen is the only fighter in Sweden.. it will only do escort and jamming roles for them... they wont import separate fighter for that.. but only either escort or jamming for that mission... LCA similarly can do escort and jamming role alone... with 3 fuel tanks it can do that work alone more perfectly... even dedicated EW role may be assigned to LCA.. who knows...


 
There is an "EW LCA" already in the making which will be used for dedicated EW roles...Below in this picture is the PV1 which is being modified for The Electronic Warfare Role


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## SpArK




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## sancho

SpArK said:


>


 
That's the Litening targeting pod, not an EW pod in case you meant that.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> That's the Litening targeting pod, not an EW pod in case you meant that.


 
Pod with EW sensors and CM


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Pod with EW sensors and CM


 


> Over the last few years it has become more important *to equip helicopters with self protection* solutions due to the widening scope of missions, the proliferation of man portable missiles and the danger of becoming a target during missions. This EW system pod provides quickly installed self protection.



A part that this is for helicopters, we have to differ between self protection pods, or systems like IAF used in the past for their fighters, which today are integrated in the fighter itself, or at least in ECM pods (on the wingtips, or tailfin) and dedicated jaming pods for electronic attack. The latter is what the Elta pod which the P. Sengupta article was talking about, or like those pods of the Growler, or Flanker versions I mentioned.

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## kingdurgaking

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes but what is was trying to ask is will ex-test a/c be inducted into full, active IAF service? And if so why? Shouldn't the IAF receive brand new fighters and ex-test planes be resigned to museums (for older lSP 1-3) or kept by HAL/ADA for testing further upgrades.


 
As per my knowledge all LSP will be configured to production version.. and LSP-6 will be retained by DRDO... All the LSP's are just 2-3 yrs old which are brand new only.. and they will go for the full scale production upgrade... which will look exactly like LSP-7 & 8... 

IAF is waiting for 7 & 8 to start testing because it doesnt make sense to test a product which is not of production standard right?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Did not seen a Gripen with a jamming pod so far and AFAIK the only fighters in Europe with capable jamming and SEAD avionics are Tornados. When LCA carries 3 fuel tanks, where should it carry the jamiming pod, or are we talking about different things?


 
3 fuel tanks one in center line and other 2 in inner wings.. which leaves space in the center line where it carries the External Pod of Israel





..

there are other hardpoints configured for 800kg .. enough for other external EW and jamming pods...

Tejas without the centerline load out...






And there is one quiz posted by broad sword .. where he stated one of the LSP's is configured for Electronic attack role..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> A part that this is for helicopters, we have to differ between self protection pods, or systems like IAF used in the past for their fighters, which today are integrated in the fighter itself, or at least in ECM pods (on the wingtips, or tailfin) and dedicated jaming pods for electronic attack. The latter is what the Elta pod which the P. Sengupta article was talking about, or like those pods of the Growler, or Flanker versions I mentioned.


 
If a jamming pod is configured.... is it mandatory to be in wingtips and centerline always??... A small crafts like LCA will do the role of EW and jamming only with out any load outs..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> 3 fuel tanks one in center line and other 2 in inner wings.. which leaves space in the center line where it carries the External Pod of Israel



You mean on the pod station, but that is limited to 200Kgs only and meant for smaller targeting, or reece pods, not heavy dedicated EW pods, that's why they have to be carried on on the centerline station. The wingtip, or tailfin pods only inclued self protection jammers and ESM/ECM techs, not dedicated electronic attack techs, these are integrated in the bigger centerline pods, that you can see at the Growler, the Flankers, or the Elta Jaming pod.
As I said, if you have no other fighter in your fleet, you can do it with LCA, but for IAF it's not neccesary with MMRCAs and Flankers. They have to go for dedicated EW aircrafts, that will be deployed in the first stages of a war and you don't send you least capable fighter for such important roles right?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> You mean on the pod station, but that is limited to 200Kgs only and meant for smaller targeting, or reece pods, not heavy dedicated EW pods, that's why they have to be carried on on the centerline station. The wingtip, or tailfin pods only inclued self protection jammers and ESM/ECM techs, not dedicated electronic attack techs, these are integrated in the bigger centerline pods, that you can see at the Growler, the Flankers, or the Elta Jaming pod.
> As I said, if you have no other fighter in your fleet, you can do it with LCA, but for IAF it's not neccesary with MMRCAs and Flankers. They have to go for dedicated EW aircrafts, that will be deployed in the first stages of a war and you don't send you least capable fighter for such important roles right?


 
yeah ..... true... right now tejas cant carry 3 tanks because of the limit of the payload...which is just 3 tonne now.... 2 tanks of 1200 litre almost 2 tonne of weight.. and 2 * 1200 litre i guess must be enough for a good range... so the centerline still can be used for carrying EW pod... 

And agreed or not it is always better to carry these sensitive thing in our indigenous one... though we can rely on Flankers little but on MMRCA we should be cautious


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## IndianArmy

*IAF on Tejas Squadron formation mode; LSP-7&8 will join flight line soon: ADA*


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## sudhir007

self delete


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## brave_ry

hey guys....... acc. to me we should stop fighting with each other...... neither China nor US or any other country is going to help us during war....... so peace it better than war....... war is just loss of life and money. 

So pakistani aur bhartiya bhaiyon...... chodo yeh dushmani and enjoy peace and friendship!!!!!

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## shaktiman2010

^^^ I agree. But first, let Pakistan produce 10,000 nukes and let India build a huge nuclear Navy fleet, airforce. Then we both will declare friendship aur fir duniya pe raaj karengey. Jo gore hum pe hukum chalate hai, wahi humari jooti chatengey.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

shaktiman2010 said:


> ^^^ I agree. But first, let Pakistan produce 10,000 nukes and let India build a huge nuclear Navy fleet, airforce. Then we both will declare friendship and will rule the western world.


 
Or just nuke eachother.....lol


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## shaktiman2010

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Or just nuke eachother.....lol


 
India will never nuke Pakistan even if there is war. Our leaders(both countries) are sane. We are not americans. 

Culturally, we both are better than west.

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## Abingdonboy

shaktiman2010 said:


> India will never nuke Pakistan even if there is war. *Our leaders(both countries) are sane*. We are not americans.
> 
> Culturally, we both are better than west.


 
It is not the leaders I (+the world) are worried about, it is the radicals who have infiltrated the GoP and may try to take control of a nuclear warhead.


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## Kinetic

Dont know if posted earlier. 

Kaveri high altitude test in Russia

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## kingdurgaking

Kinetic said:


> Dont know if posted earlier.
> 
> Kaveri high altitude test in Russia


 
This seems to be a new test ..... the color of the engine body is different from the first one actually flow.. hopefully we are able to reduce some weight and develope some high thrust engine


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## HongWu

Kinetic said:


> Dont know if posted earlier.
> 
> Kaveri high altitude test in Russia


Huh? India's "indigenous" engine is tested in Russia?


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## SpArK

HongWu said:


> Huh? India's "indigenous" engine is tested in Russia?


 
Yup.. we dont have that facility , yet.. So whats ur point?


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## farhan_9909

HongWu said:


> Huh? India's "indigenous" engine is tested in Russia?


 
Indian call LCA indegenous too

indegenous means something else for india


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## SpArK

farhan_9909 said:


> Indian call LCA indegenous too
> 
> indegenous means something else for india


 
Go through the same thread..*Indians* and *Indian* medias has pointed out the foreign collaborations , parts and all details... 

Just dont appear each and everytime in the thread like a new born and go bezerk on the term indigenousness..


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## farhan_9909

SpArK said:


> Go through the same thread..*Indians* and *Indian* medias has pointed out the foreign collaborations , parts and all details...
> 
> Just dont appear each and everytime in the thread like a new born and go bezerk on the term indigenousness..


 
even after this

they call LCA indegenous


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## SpArK

farhan_9909 said:


> even after this
> 
> they call LCA indegenous


 
Why are you so concerned about what we call or not??? This is a defense forum.. not a language and grammar class.


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## Whiplash

farhan_9909 said:


> even after this
> 
> they call LCA indegenous


 
Lol. What is your definition of indigenous? Starting from scratch? Inventing the wheel and moving up from that? Next time take a few minutes to ponder at that pathetic defence industry of yours before pointing fingers. Hey.. Atleast we're trying.

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## farhan_9909

SpArK said:


> Why are you so concerned about what we call or not??? This is a defense forum.. not a language and grammar class.


 
anything with 60% foriegn parts should nt be called indegenous


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## kingdurgaking

Whiplash said:


> Lol. What is your definition of indigenous? Starting from scratch? Inventing the wheel and moving up from that? Next time take a few minutes to ponder at that pathetic defence industry of yours before pointing fingers. Hey.. Atleast we're trying.


 
Indigenous as per the world is JV with china.. apart from producing in America or Russia or flight testing of American engine in Russia is also not Indigenous.. so naturally India doesnt have anything.. if India does JV with china then LCA became indigenous automatically.. bad evil indoo scientist they didnt want indigenous products


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## farhan_9909

Whiplash said:


> Lol. What is your definition of indigenous? Starting from scratch? Inventing the wheel and moving up from that? Next time take a few minutes to ponder at that pathetic defence industry of yours before pointing fingers. Hey.. Atleast we're trying.


 
my defination of indegenous is rafale,f-16,f-18,su 27,mig 29


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## kingdurgaking

farhan_9909 said:


> anything with 60% foriegn parts should nt be called indegenous


 
If you are manufacturing a bicycle and sourcing the component from different vendor ... wont you call that product as indigenous??.. you call that as foreign product?.. if you call it as a foreign product?? then what is the design value you have got??? so you meant to say you are a dummy piece? even though you have designed the bicycle since you dont have the capability to manufacture the parts?... if you still believe you are not labeling the bicycle as your indigenous product you can right to patent and get a copyright of your new definition

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------




farhan_9909 said:


> my defination of indegenous is rafale,f-16,f-18,su 27,mig 29


 
still dassault doesnt produce all the parts.. some are produced by thales.. some by different vendor.. so it is not indigenous one brother


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## farhan_9909

kingdurgaking said:


> If you are manufacturing a bicycle and sourcing the component from different vendor ... wont you call that product as indigenous??.. you call that as foreign product?.. if you call it as a foreign product?? then what is the design value you have got??? so you meant to say you are a dummy piece? even though you have designed the bicycle since you dont have the capability to manufacture the parts?... if you still believe you are not labeling the bicycle as your indigenous product you can right to patent and get a copyright of your new definition
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> still dassault doesnt produce all the parts.. some are produced by thales.. some by different vendor.. so it is not indigenous one brother


 
my friend bicycle and aircrafts are two different things

And the rafale imported doesnt even count for 10%.

i mean to say that india should nt call LCA indegenous.dessault helped HAl in LCA design.

so design is a jv,engine imported,radar imported,avionics half israely,weapon package russian mostly,


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## kingdurgaking

farhan_9909 said:


> my friend bicycle and aircrafts are two different things
> 
> And the rafale imported doesnt even count for 10%.
> 
> i mean to say that india should nt call LCA indegenous.dessault helped HAl in LCA design.
> 
> so design is a jv,engine imported,radar imported,avionics half israely,weapon package russian mostly,


 
That was given for a better example... 

Dassault doesnt produce most of the parts... you have to understand the business... a good business team will try to outsource most of there work.. there brain only will function... if you have wealth and capability you can do the ground work like producing parts.... which china currently does.. India doesnt benefit from investing into those industries.. just for 220 fighters... As things get matured like AMCA and UCAV those industries will be slowly built....

and regarding consultation you are very wrong.. most of the design is done by ADA.... there are lot of videos.. Dassault came in only for FBW.. where it gave the breifing for analog system instead LM and BAE gave briefing for Digital quadrapule .... still all the algorithms are developed inhouse by CLAW team... no where consultation will give full help... as there business is in stake... i hope you get the logic.. You can understand all these tatics only if you own a business.. if you are working for some one... then you can forget what ever i said....



A simple logic.. if you dont belive LCA is not indigenous.. just name the foreign company who claims LCA is there's because they have there parts in LCA.. you will understand the reality....

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## SpArK

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/96946-drdo-official-sees-good-export-potential-tejas-2.html#post1551355

Post 28

Bookmark it...


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## sancho

HongWu said:


> Huh? India's "indigenous" engine is tested in Russia?


 
LOL, so the new Japanese stealth fighter is not indigenous, because it was tested in French facilities to test it's low RCS. Also the EF is not an European fighter, because they test it often in the US and their test ranges?  




farhan_9909 said:


> my friend bicycle and aircrafts are two different things
> 
> And the rafale imported doesnt even count for 10%.
> 
> i mean to say that india should nt call LCA indegenous.dessault helped HAl in LCA design.
> 
> so design is a jv,engine imported,radar imported,avionics half israely,weapon package russian mostly,


 

First of all:



> *The indigenization level in Tejas is currently around 65 percent* and will be scaled to 75-80 percent when production will be expanded to meet the IAF combat needs," *VK Saraswat, scientific adviser to the defence minister pointed out*.



India

Secondly the design is not a JV, they had consultancies in the initial design stage only, but since then and all the changes in the various prototypes they were not involved anymore. 
Thirdly, even if it would have been a JV for a part, Tejas is still an indigenous project, because it is developed and funded in India, for our needs and requirements and not as a joint product! That's the important part that you ignor and not that we take the advantage that we have, by not restricting ourself on a few indigenous techs, but useing anything that is available for us to make Tejas better, or use it as a stop gap till our own developments are ready.
I never understand why Pakistani members claim these things for Tejas, while they on the other side would love to see western engines, radars, avionics and weapons on JF 17 (and I'm not mentioning how much of it is Chinese anyway)?
The fact is, even if we didn't achieved the indigenous level that we aimed for at the begining, we did a very good job at several fields, especially when we take to account that this is our first real attempt. You can keep denying it, but it doesn't matter too much, because the reality is quit clear when you see all the developments that are runing (LCA, LCH, LOH...). India is on a good way and adding the advantages it has, with the good relations to Russia as well as western countries!

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## HongWu

sancho said:


> LOL, so the new Japanese stealth fighter is not indigenous, because it was tested in French facilities to test it's low RCS. Also the EF is not an European fighter, because they test it often in the US and their test ranges?


Sources please.... Japan has no stealth fighter....


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## satishkumarcsc

HongWu said:


> Sources please.... Japan has no stealth fighter....


 
OT

Japan Developing Stealth Fighter Technology: Armed Forces Int. News

Japan seeks foreign engines for stealth fighter prototypes



> These include the General Electric F404 used to power the Boeing F/A-18 Hornet, Snecma's M88-2 for the Dassault Rafale and Volvo Aero's RM12, integrated with the Saab Gripen. Its search even contains the Gas Turbine Research Establishment GTX-35VS Kaveri, still in development for India's Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.

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## HongWu

^ Oh right..... those links prove sancho's claim Japan stealth fighter "was tested in French facilities to test it's low RCS"

Sort of like how Indians claim their new indigenous weapon is about to be deployed when it's still fantasy in the minds of corrupt and incompetent Indian "defense scientists."


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
The same is the case with gripen but everyone is free to call it Swedish fighter....

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## rajusri

farhan_9909 said:


> Indian call LCA indegenous too
> 
> indegenous means something else for india


 
 Than there is not a single Chinese indigenous project. All of them have more or less Russian or western systems.


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## jdme

Dear gawd! This sham of thing is still alive and kicking?


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## jdme

rajusri said:


> Than there is not a single Chinese indigenous project. All of them have more or less Russian or western systems.


 
Yet it functions unlike our own "indigenous" weapons...When would we get rid of shams like DRDO and allow private companies to take over. So much money wasted and we still keep pandering to these .


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## sancho

HongWu said:


> Sources please.... Japan has no stealth fighter....





> ...They include a presentation slide confirming that France has been supporting the Japanese stealth program: *between September and November 2005, the model was tested in the French government's radar cross-section (RCS) range*...



Ares: A Defense Technology Blog: Mitsubishi Stealth





> *Mitsubishi ATD-X Shinshin (Japan), Aircraft - Fixed-wing - Military*
> 
> Type
> Multirole fighter.
> 
> Programme
> Originally a research programme (Advanced Technology Demonstrator Experimental) on behalf of Technical Research and Development Institute (TRDI) for potential future stealth fighter; official launch announced July 2007. *Few details yet released, but full-scale radar cross-section (RCS) model of earlier configuration was tested in French government's CELAR RCS facility at Bruz between September and November 2005*; later photo of putative twin-jet configuration shows design broadly similar in shape to US F-22 Raptor but dimensionally closer to Saab Gripen. Full-size mockup shown by Japanese MoD at Japan Aerospace show, Yokohama, in October 2008, confirming that ATD-X still based on 2005 RCS test model, with (according to TRDI officials) 'only a few' changes. Radio-controlled subscale test model reportedly flown during FY06. Radar reflectivity tests continuing at TRDI in late 2009.Although begun purely as a technology demonstration programme, Lockheed Martin refusal to export F-22A has refocused efforts towards developing ATD-X into a production type for JASDF. Two prototypes planned, with target date of 2013 for maiden flight. These to be powered by foreign engines within wide-ranging thrust class of 44.5 to 89 kN (10,000 to 20,000 lb), for which requests for information issued in 2010. Meanwhile, IHI tasked with developing domestic XF5-1 turbofan for production version.



http://articles..com/articles/-All-the-Worlds-Aircraft/Mitsubishi-ATD-X-Shinshin-Japan.html


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Ares: A Defense Technology Blog: Mitsubishi Stealth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://articles..com/articles/-All-the-Worlds-Aircraft/Mitsubishi-ATD-X-Shinshin-Japan.html


 
Why try so hard?

You can wake up a sleeping guy but you cant wake up a guy acting like he is asleep.

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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Why try so hard?
> 
> You can wake up a sleeping guy but you cant wake up a guy acting like he is asleep.


 
Possible, but at least I did my part and nobody can say I claim baseless things, the rest is up to him.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Possible, but at least I did my part and nobody can say I claim baseless things, the rest is up to him.


 
everyone knows about you.. and you dont have to prove anything to those who dont spend enough time on the internet to find few answers

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## Black Widow

Today I saw few LCA (may be 4 or 5) inside a building. I just had a glimps so I couldn't see it was old one or new one...

Can any one tell me if they were LSP 8 to 16 or TDs...


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## satishkumarcsc

Black Widow said:


> Today I saw few LCA (may be 4 or 5) inside a building. I just had a glimps so I couldn't see it was old one or new one...
> 
> Can any one tell me if they were LSP 8 to 16 or TDs...


 
There are only 8 LSPs....then Series Production is supposed to start.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1636 Test Flights successfully. 21-Apr-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-273,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-22)


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## Jon Snow

I have a few questions about the LCA's bvr missile
Many sources seem to agree that r77 would be on the tejas but there has been no word from HAL that integration of this missile is taking place, only that the astra and derby have been chosen as the bvr missiles for tejas. does that mean that the r77 is out?? if so then why? it seems on paper to be better than the derby and as we have already integrated the r73 on tejas wouldnt it be easier to integrate another russian missile instead of the israeli one?
And can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km


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## jha

> can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km



No one can confirm what is the real range..Range differs with altitude..It is lowest at sea level while at higher altitude it will have greater range..

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## satishkumarcsc

Jon Snow said:


> I have a few questions about the LCA's bvr missile
> Many sources seem to agree that r77 would be on the tejas but there has been no word from HAL that integration of this missile is taking place, only that the astra and derby have been chosen as the bvr missiles for tejas. does that mean that the r77 is out?? if so then why? it seems on paper to be better than the derby and as we have already integrated the r73 on tejas wouldnt it be easier to integrate another russian missile instead of the israeli one?
> And can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km


 
Well the Russianss havent given the source codes for integration. We use the RVV-AE with range of 110+ km

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## nelson dias

India is constantly trumpeting about its capabilities, etc, yet here we see attempts at outsourcing manufacture of the LCA as HAL is unable to meet the orders placed by the IAF.


India Turns to Overseas Firms to Increase LCA Production Level 


Courtesy of DefenceNow


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> I have a few questions about the LCA's bvr missile
> Many sources seem to agree that r77 would be on the tejas but there has been no word from HAL that integration of this missile is taking place, only that the astra and derby have been chosen as the bvr missiles for tejas. does that mean that the r77 is out?? if so then why? it seems on paper to be better than the derby and as we have already integrated the r73 on tejas wouldnt it be easier to integrate another russian missile instead of the israeli one?
> And can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km


 
R-77 is not for Tejas any more.. it is Derby... there are some reasons.. one is HAL's experience in integrating Derby to Indian Navy.. secondly 2032 Radar is compatible with Derby by default.. so less hazzle in integration... 

Secondly R-77 integration is tedious and i feel it is not following any standard.. 

secondly Derby is a ideal missile for Point defence fighters.. while R-77 is for MKI fighters...

As for LCA Derby will be Ideal and Astra will replace them which will become Main stay for our Air force..

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## jdme

nelson dias said:


> India is constantly trumpeting about its capabilities, etc, yet here we see attempts at outsourcing manufacture of the LCA as HAL is unable to meet the orders placed by the IAF.
> 
> 
> India Turns to Overseas Firms to Increase LCA Production Level
> 
> 
> Courtesy of DefenceNow


 

We are nothing if not consistent


----------



## koushik

Jon Snow said:


> I have a few questions about the LCA's bvr missile
> Many sources seem to agree that r77 would be on the tejas but there has been no word from HAL that integration of this missile is taking place, only that the astra and derby have been chosen as the bvr missiles for tejas. does that mean that the r77 is out?? if so then why? it seems on paper to be better than the derby and as we have already integrated the r73 on tejas wouldnt it be easier to integrate another russian missile instead of the israeli one?
> And can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km


 
Hey Jon Snow.the range of the R-77 varies with altitude just like all other AAMs. at sea level the R-77 will have minimum range because at sea level the air is denser so there wil be supersonic drag so less range however say at an altitude of 30000ft it will have significantly more range as the air will be thinner so less drag and on extremely high altitude say 58000ft there be almost no air at all so maximum range.As far as Tejas is concerned the Derby will be its main BVRAAM.the derby is very good because it has a very advanced seeker and highly resistant to ECCM.


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## koushik

nelson dias said:


> India is constantly trumpeting about its capabilities, etc, yet here we see attempts at outsourcing manufacture of the LCA as HAL is unable to meet the orders placed by the IAF.
> 
> 
> India Turns to Overseas Firms to Increase LCA Production Level
> 
> 
> Courtesy of DefenceNow


 
These dialogues and reminders dont suite a nation which hasn't even built an aircraft fuselage by its own.Even if India is trying to source LCA's production abroad it would mean that the aircrafts would come out more quickly.so its good for us.


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## jdme

koushik said:


> These dialogues and reminders dont suite a nation which hasn't even built an aircraft fuselage by its own.Even if India is trying to source LCA's production abroad it would mean that the aircrafts would come out more quickly.so its good for us.


 
Only thing good for us is to scrap everything DRDO is making, scrap DRDO and privatize the whole defense sector. Perhaps then we can actually build something functional and not be laughed by rest of the world.


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## koushik

jdme said:


> Only thing good for us is to scrap everything DRDO is making, scrap DRDO and privatize the whole defense sector. Perhaps then we can actually build something functional and not be laughed by rest of the world.


 
hey jdme,just chill bro.dont care what others say.dogs alwys bark and barking dogs seldom bite.anyways what do you think about the Derby missile on the Tejas.?


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## jdme

koushik said:


> hey jdme,just chill bro.dont care what others say.dogs alwys bark and barking dogs seldom bite.anyways what do you think about the Derby missile on the Tejas.?


 

Clueless about military weapons. This is purely academic anyways. Small chance Indian airforce will see any action in near future.


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## koushik

jdme said:


> Clueless about military weapons. This is purely academic anyways. Small chance Indian airforce will see any action in near future.


 
that is quite true.atleast for now there will only be action just at the diplomatic level.however wars are very bad for all.however the next decade will be very bright for IAF with next gen. Gizmos.i want to fly a PAK FA right now i am in Class-XI and i want to be a pilot in the IAF.


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## Jon Snow

Thanks Everybody for the great replies.
So the R77 is delinked from the lca programme?? if the lca is a point defence fighter then i guess it makes sense but doesnt the iaf want lca mk2 as a mrca and if so shouldnt it be fitted with the best bvr missile at our disposal right now??? guess derby will have to do till astra comes ( god knows when that will be as it took 7 years just to complete ground testing and now flight testing hasnt even begun and after that there will be user trials.... we could be in a wait for a few long years)


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> I have a few questions about the LCA's bvr missile
> Many sources seem to agree that r77 would be on the tejas but there has been no word from HAL that integration of this missile is taking place, only that the astra and derby have been chosen as the bvr missiles for tejas. does that mean that the r77 is out?? if so then why? it seems on paper to be better than the derby and as we have already integrated the r73 on tejas wouldnt it be easier to integrate another russian missile instead of the israeli one?
> And can anyone please confirm the range of the r77....most sources claim 80-90km but i have seen claims as low as 40km to as high as 160km


 
The Russian missiles were planed to be integrated from the start of LCA development, once because we have a large stock of them, secondly even the Mig 21 Bisons used them, so replacing them with LCA would not require procuring new weapons. However, the development of LCA is sadly delayed for several years now and it seems IAF wants (maybe have) to replace the Russian missiles now, that's why they want Astra on MKI and for LCA in future anyway. That means, the switch to derby missile might just have logistical reasons and not technical, because derby will be integrated into N - LCA of IN anyway and integrating derby now and astra later for both forces is cheaper, than integrating the R77 for IAF, while derby for IN and astra later for both.

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## Jon Snow

also what about the sustained g limits of the lca? the maximum we have gone till now is 6.9g and there were some comments that the iaf would be happy with a max of a 8g limit...... so is HAL going to leave it at 8g or go for the original plan of 9g??
And can someone tell me if it is possible to lock on to a incoming bvr missile and fire on it by your own bvr missile thus destroying the threat?( sorry for the off topic question but i didnt know where else to post it)


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> The Russian missiles were planed to be integrated from the start of LCA development, once because we have a large stock of them, secondly even the Mig 21 Bisons used them, so replacing them with LCA would not require procuring new weapons. However, the development of LCA is sadly delayed for several years now and *it seems IAF wants (maybe have) to replace the Russian missiles now*, that's why they want Astra on MKI and for LCA in future anyway. That means, the switch to derby missile might just have logistical reasons and not technical, because derby will be integrated into N - LCA of IN anyway and integrating derby now and astra later for both forces is cheaper, than integrating the R77 for IAF, while derby for IN and astra later for both.


thanks sancho !!
also about the bolded part... replace the r 77??? with what? astra? from all the paper comparisons i could find of the two missiles it seems the r77 is better by far....unless the rumours that the r 77 have some secret problems making it unusable is true- if so then we have a big problem


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## koushik

Jon Snow said:


> Thanks Everybody for the great replies.
> So the R77 is delinked from the lca programme?? if the lca is a point defence fighter then i guess it makes sense but doesnt the iaf want lca mk2 as a mrca and if so shouldnt it be fitted with the best bvr missile at our disposal right now??? guess derby will have to do till astra comes ( god knows when that will be as it took 7 years just to complete ground testing and now flight testing hasnt even begun and after that there will be user trials.... we could be in a wait for a few long years)


 
In case of LCA Mk-2 which will be equipped with a new AESA Radar there would be a whole new range of BVRAAMs.when Tejas Mk-2 would hit production lines in 2016 Astra Mk-2 would be ready,the Meteor can also be integrated into the LCA mk-2 along with the Python-5 and R-73E for WVR engagements.

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## Lord Of Gondor

@JSnow-^^^^I think that the Tejas has software which limits it's G-force exposure and also the maximum speed[which is restricted to Mach 1.6].Hence they will tweak the software part so that the Tejas achieves it's FOC,which requires that it withstands 8G's and AoA of 32(I Think!)degrees.

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## koushik

Bharadwaj said:


> @JSnow-^^^^I think that the Tejas has software which limits it's G-force exposure and also the maximum speed[which is restricted to Mach 1.6].Hence they will tweak the software part so that the Tejas achieves it's FOC,which requires that it withstands 8G's and AoA of 32(I Think!)degrees.


 
The FBW System limits the G-Level exposure of the Tejas to prevent fatigue cracks from appearing in the airframe.The Tejas has top speed of About Mach 1.8 to Mach 2.0 at high altitude.the Tejas can easily sustain 8G stress but the lca MK-1 is not allowed to carry out manouvers in excess of 7.5G bcoz it is underpowered and with a heavy weapon load the GE-F404 doesnt have enough thrust for 8G turns.But Lca Mk-2 wont have any problems bcoz of LEVCONS and the higher thrust rated GE-F414 Engine.


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> thanks sancho !!
> also about the bolded part... replace the r 77??? with what? astra? from all the paper comparisons i could find of the two missiles it seems the r77 is better by far....unless the rumours that the r 77 have some secret problems making it unusable is true- if so then we have a big problem


 
These weapons and their techs have only a specific life, which means sooner or later they have to be replaced anyway. IAF has the plan to replace the R77 with Astra in future and once because there are some quality issues with them, secondly because we have more control over our own weapons and can develop them to our requirements. The specs on paper are just a hint and as other members already said, depends on the situations when the missile is fired. Moreover they depend on which version we are talking about and which version of the R77 IAF really has.

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## kingdurgaking

koushik said:


> The FBW System limits the G-Level exposure of the Tejas to prevent fatigue cracks from appearing in the airframe.The Tejas has top speed of About Mach 1.8 to Mach 2.0 at high altitude.the Tejas can easily sustain 8G stress but the lca MK-1 is not allowed to carry out manouvers in excess of 7.5G bcoz it is underpowered and with a heavy weapon load the GE-F404 doesnt have enough thrust for 8G turns.But Lca Mk-2 wont have any problems bcoz of LEVCONS and the higher thrust rated GE-F414 Engine.


 
MK-2 has LEVCONS?


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## koushik

kingdurgaking said:


> MK-2 has LEVCONS?


 
to be true I am not sure but the picture of LCA MK-2 which i had seen certainly had LEVCONS.adding LEVCONS will help in increasing AoA of THE lca MK-2.What do u think?


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## kingdurgaking

Tejas sensors checked out during night flying

one more good news...
When are those god damn LSP 6,7&8 are going to come out of the hanger.........

---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------




koushik said:


> to be true I am not sure but the picture of LCA MK-2 which i had seen certainly had LEVCONS.adding LEVCONS will help in increasing AoA of THE lca MK-2.What do u think?


 
As far as i know.. MK-2 doesnt have LEVCONS.. there is a design optimization though for high AoA... may be LEVCONS.. who knows


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## udiptoghsh

can any one just give me right information about the current ongoing development of the LCA programme..????did the development of LCA MK2 nd MK3 have started???and what will the fleet of lca in the indian airforce consist of...will it be the mk 1..the mk 2..or the mk 3...?
want to know about these queries eagerly.....post pics if possible...!!!


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## jha

udiptoghsh said:


> can any one just give me right information about the current ongoing development of the LCA programme..????did the development of LCA MK2 nd *MK3 *have started???and what will the fleet of lca in the indian airforce consist of...will it be the mk 1..the mk 2..or the mk 3...?
> want to know about these queries eagerly.....post pics if possible...!!!


 
Mk-III ..? Yeh kab hua..? No idea about Mk-3 , but Mk-2 will get IOC in '14..


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## Black Widow

kingdurgaking said:


> Tejas sensors checked out during night flying
> 
> one more good news...
> When are those god damn LSP 6,7&8 are going to come out of the hanger.........
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> As far as i know.. MK-2 doesnt have LEVCONS.. there is a design optimization though for high AoA... may be LEVCONS.. who knows


 


I witnessed that flight, It was 7:30 pm on tuesday.. I was riding my 500cc Bullet, I heard a huge roar of LCA. I stopped by and look at the sky, LCA was taking off... 


Even Yesterday I saw lot of Antonov flying at the same time...

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## sudhir007

Tejas sensors checked out during night flying

The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft- Tejas, fitted with advanced sensors like Multi Mode Radar (MMR) Litening Pod (Day and Night imaging sensors), was checked out during night flying, Defence Research and Development Organisation said today.

These sensors when integrated with the on board weapon system, makes it a potent multi-role combat aircraft, a DRDO statement said. The first phase of the night evaluation in which six night flight sorties were conducted was held yesterday, it said.

"The preliminary results indicate that the integrated system performed very well, meeting the requirements of night operations. Flight trials were conducted by the National Flight Test Centre at ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency)", the statement said.

In addition, the avionics suit includes the state of the art Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS) and Instrument Landing System (ILS), it said. To prove Tejas&#8217;s night operational capability, all these systems needed to be tested and evaluated following a detailed flight test programme during night flying in moon phase as well as dark phase, it said.

LSP-5 aircraft, which has the required cockpit lighting standard to support night flying, was used for these trials, the statement added. The night flying was started after a series of ground evaluations of the integrated system in static as well as taxi phase under different lighting conditions, it said.

With the conclusion of the first phase of night evaluations, the mood is upbeat in &#8216;Team Tejas&#8217;. Success of the current phase of trials augurs well for achieving night attack capability for Tejas in the near future, it said.

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## udiptoghsh

jha bro...i asked if any one could give me information of my question????nd u started asking me itself???tumhare pass kuch sahi khabar hai toh bolo...nahi toh bakwas maat karo yaar....


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## jha

udiptoghsh said:


> jha bro...i asked if any one could give me information of my question????nd u started asking me itself???tumhare pass kuch sahi khabar hai toh bolo...nahi toh bakwas maat karo yaar....


 

Itne uptight kyun ho bhai...? Rahi khabar ki baat, to mere paas hai to sahi, but typing all those things is a very bulky task..
Go through LCA thread, You will find all your answers there..


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## kingdurgaking

udiptoghsh said:


> can any one just give me right information about the current ongoing development of the LCA programme..????did the development of LCA MK2 nd MK3 have started???and what will the fleet of lca in the indian airforce consist of...will it be the mk 1..the mk 2..or the mk 3...?
> want to know about these queries eagerly.....post pics if possible...!!!


 
As of now there is no road map of MK-3..... the next thing that ADA and HAL will work on after MK-2 is AMCA .... Development of MK-2 started on paper and is yet to be moved to labs... which will happen by this year end.. there still some RFP to be closed for MK-2 to frutify fully... 

Air force will have both MK-1 and MK-2
while Navy will have only MK-2

pics you can get it in google... 

P.S almost all these information is available in PDF... just you have to use the Search tool in the top.. if not you can use google.... you will be able to get answers for most of your question... this is not a frustration reply but a tip...

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## kingdurgaking

Black Widow said:


> I witnessed that flight, It was 7:30 pm on tuesday.. I was riding my 500cc Bullet, I heard a huge roar of LCA. I stopped by and look at the sky, LCA was taking off...
> 
> 
> Even Yesterday I saw lot of Antonov flying at the same time...


 
500 cc bullet?? gosh are you driving davidson?


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## Black Widow

kingdurgaking said:


> 500 cc bullet?? gosh are you driving davidson?


 
No its 500cc Royal enfield machismo, 2005 model.. This was the best you could have got till last year...

Now 700cc+ Harley is available, Korean have also launched there cruiser (probably 700 cc) But they are costly... You can get 500 cc Bullet in 1.5 lakh, while harley is 7Lakh...


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## SpArK

*Tejas soars into night sky
​*

BANGALORE: Tejas, the Light combat aircraft (LCA) has crossed one more significant milestone by sucessfully conducting night flights. Tejas sensors checked out during night flying at the HAL airport on Tuesday night. 

*"With the successful conclusion of the first phase of night evaluations, the mood is upbeat in `Team Tejas' comprising of specialists from ADA, HAL, IAF, IN ADE, NAL, CEMILAC and DGAQA. Success of the current phase of trials augurs well for achieving night attack capability of Tejas in the near future, an HAL press release said.* 

The flight trials were conducted by the National Flight Test Centre at ADA. The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft __ *Tejas is fitted with advanced sensors like multi-mode radar (MMR) and litening pod (day and night imaging sensors). These, when integrated with the on board weapon system, makes it a potent multi-role combat aircraft. *

*In addition, the avionics suit includes the state-of-the-art helmet-mounted display system (HMDS) and instrument landing system (ILS). To prove Tejas' night-operational capability, all these systems need to be tested and evaluated following a detailed flight test program during night flying in moon phase as well as dark phase, the release adds. *

LSP-5 aircraft, *which has the required cockpit lighting standard to support night flying, was used for these trials. The night flying was started after a series of ground evaluation of the integrated system in static as well as taxy phase under different lighting conditions. 
*

Tejas soars into night sky - The Times of India

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## udiptoghsh

thanks a lot kingdurgaking.....that information was really valuable....!!!
1.but will the airforce will have more of mk1..nd less of mk2..or vice-versa????
2.nd by 2020..hw many tejas(both mk1 nd mk2 )will be operated by indian airforce???


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## tushar

^^^
I would like to answer your question....
1. mk1 will be only 48 while mk2 number will cross 100...
2. by 2020 atleast all mk1 will be completed and mk1 naval version will also be completed. Now therre are reports that DRDO might opt for some other company for tejas production then production rate will be different but right now its too slow and with the increasing new projects the production rate under HAL doesnot seems to increase....Su30 production is going on there is a strict deadline over there, then MMRCA will be coming and by the end of decade FGFA will also enter production....Not to mention trainers, MRTA helicopters etc. will also keep HAL busy...


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## udiptoghsh

thanks a lot tushar....the information was very important to me....thanks a lot...!!!!
and another thing....i think HAL by 2020 will b becoming the biggest military aircraft maker in the world..it will really have to work upon may be 50 odd projects by then...!!!
WHAT DO U THINK????


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## RPK

*Tejas passes first night operations test *

Tejas passes first night operations test


India's Tejas light combat aircraft has completed the first phase of its night flying tests, having conducted a targeting and attack mission under the cover of darkness.

Flown from Hindustan Aeronautics' airport in Bengaluru, the process involved using the Tejas's Israeli-made multi-mode radar and Rafael Litening targeting pod.

"Preliminary results indicate that the integrated systems performed very well, meeting the requirements of night operations," says India's state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation. "Success of the current phase of trials augur well for achieving the night attack capability for Tejas."

A second phase of night evaluation flights will be carried out within a couple of months, the DRDO says. Clearing the process is a key step before the Tejas can receive full operational clearance for use by the Indian air force.


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## tushar

> thanks a lot tushar....the information was very important to me....thanks a lot...!!!!
> and another thing....i think HAL by 2020 will b becoming the biggest military aircraft maker in the world..it will really have to work upon may be 50 odd projects by then...!!!
> WHAT DO U THINK????


Yeah its true....HAL has a huge modernization plan of around 4 billion $ and they are also getting enlisted....
DRDO is thinking about other companies for LCA production and in my opinion it will be the best decision ever....because HAL has many projects...From 2010 HAL will be involve in production of 4 helicopters (Dhruv, LUH, LCH, IMRH=1500 as claimed by HAL but looks impossible), 3-4 trainers (Hawk, IJT, basic trainer may be grob), MRTA, 4 fighter jets (LCH, Su30, MMRCA, FGFA), modernisation of Mig29, Jaguar, Mirage and may be Mig27 etc....

I don't think its feasible for HAL, if HAL will go for all these projects, then there would delays which our forces cannot afford....


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## Black Widow

tushar said:


> Yeah its true....HAL has a huge modernization plan of around 4 billion $ and they are also getting enlisted....
> DRDO is thinking about other companies for LCA production and in my opinion it will be the best decision ever....because HAL has many projects...From 2010 HAL will be involve in production of 4 helicopters (Dhruv, LUH, LCH, IMRH=1500 as claimed by HAL but looks impossible), 3-4 trainers (Hawk, IJT, basic trainer may be grob), MRTA, 4 fighter jets (LCH, Su30, MMRCA, FGFA), modernisation of Mig29, Jaguar, Mirage and may be Mig27 etc....
> 
> I don't think its feasible for HAL, if HAL will go for all these projects, then there would delays which our forces cannot afford....


 


Its right time to start some solid business... We can make some money by assembling these birds..


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## udiptoghsh

i think HAL now should have its subsidary factories all around the country...by 2015...nearly about 10 more assembly factories are needed..with supreme quality and technology of producing the aircrafts....!!!!
hal is not just making those above stated projects..as told by u..yaa..those are right offcourse..but its just a part of it...
HAL is producing the kaveri engines....modern avionics...radars used in fighters nd other planes...ultra modern pilot suits....many hundreds..flight stimulators...few other experimental engines...nd also hal is also producing the honeywell engine..due to the work has been outsourced by honeywell to HAL.....AROUND 500 UAV'S..with joint collaboration with israel...france....brazil....russia...usa....few 100 attack drones....and many more indeginiously made uav's!!!
THATS GOIN TO BE A REAL BUSY DECADE OR TWO..FOR HAL....HUMUNGOUS WORKS AWAITING FOR HAL IN THE COMING 20-25 YEARS..!!!!


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## Break the Silence

And... another important point that you guys have missed is the employment opportunities... ALL THESE tasks will surely opens the doors for aspiring youth and explore new job opportunities.. therefore we can expect additional boost to our economy!


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## udiptoghsh

Break the Silence said:


> And... another important point that you guys have missed is the employment opportunities... ALL THESE tasks will surely opens the doors for aspiring youth and explore new job opportunities.. therefore we can expect additional boost to our economy!


 
yaa...man surely it will.....!!!!!cheers...!!!


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## kish

udiptoghsh said:


> thanks a lot tushar....the information was very important to me....thanks a lot...!!!!
> and another thing....i think HAL by 2020 will b becoming the biggest military aircraft maker in the world..it will really have to work upon may be 50 odd projects by then...!!!
> WHAT DO U THINK????



NOT BIGGEST (we should not forget Lockheed , Boeing , sukhoi .. are already ahead of us )
but ya one of the biggest ..

we can see so many projects but i think HAL will need private manufacturer support to fulfill them . .

samtel is just one example who will provide some electronics parts


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## tushar

^^^
Now TATA and Mahindra can also help in airframe, TCS, LnT infotech & Mahindra Satyam can help in software portion of aerospace sector and so on....



> AROUND 500 UAV'S..with joint collaboration with israel...france....brazil....russia...usa....few 100 attack drones....and many more indeginiously made uav's!!!


Please tell us more about this....500 UAV ??/100 attack drone ??/ And the uav developed by drdo is not likely to be produced by HAL.....For Rustom which is one of the biggest project in UAVs in India might be given to private firms like Godrej, LnT...


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## udiptoghsh

oh im sorry.... uavs will be produced mostly by drdo..nd not hal!!!!


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## tushar

^^^
Also what about these 500 uavs and 100 attack drones ??/ Can you please name the projects and when were these huge deals signed ???


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## udiptoghsh

those are some ongoing projects that may turn out to be a deal.....its not officially declared...but those are definately gonna come up...!!!
500 uav's will comprise of nishant uav..lakshya uav..rustom 2 uav...harop uav...heron uav...searcher uav's...some attack drones which are actually rustom 2 that will be weaponized..to some way match upto the us predator attack drone...!!!so the total of surveillance uav's will be around 500..by 2020...and attack drones around 100...!!!these uav's will then be inducted in the navy,army,air force..and also coast guards...!!!


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## Nirvana

*Tejas Goes Night Hunting*



> *The LCA Tejas programme clocked significant trial points this week with one of the limited series production (LSP-5) aircraft undertook a series of six flights at night. Sporting a modified Israeli-Indian hybrid multimode radar and a Litening pod, the LSP-5 is reported to have conducted mock targeting and attack drill to test simulated avionics release and integration of weapons and sensors. Night flights will continue for the next two weeks.
> 
> The DRDO put out a statement to the press in Bengaluru yesterday saying, "The preliminary results indicate that the integrated system performed very well, meeting the requirements of night operations." The statement also said that the flights tested the helmet mounted display and instrument landing system.*



Photos Livefist: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: LCA Tejas Night Flying!


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## sudhir007

Livefist: FIRST PHOTOS: LCA Tejas KH-2015 Night Attack Trials

















This is the LCA Tejas LSP-5 (Tail No. KH-2015) during recent night attack trials. The trials continue.


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## sudhir007




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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> [
> This is the LCA Tejas LSP-5 (Tail No. KH-2015) during recent night attack trials. The trials continue.


 
I wonder if they call it night attack trials as well, or if it's just a name of Mr Aroor, because I can't see any weaponary fitted on the fighter, not even for flight testing.


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## southpaw

sancho said:


> I wonder if they call it night attack trials as well, or if it's just a name of Mr Aroor, because I can't see any weaponary fitted on the fighter, not even for flight testing.


 
"Sporting a modified Israeli-Indian hybrid multimode radar and a Litening pod, the LSP-5 is reported to have conducted mock targeting and attack drill to test simulated avionics release and integration of weapons and sensors."
- From an earlier Livefist post.

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## udiptoghsh

WHATS BETTER.....LCA TEJAS..OR JAS 39 GRIPEN???
PLEASE POST AND COMMENT UR VEIWS ON THE BASIS OF LOOKS,DESIGN,STEALTH,WEAPON SYSTEMS,RADAR,FLIGHT CONTROL AND RADARS,AVIONICS,COMBAT ROBUSTNESS,TECHNOLOGY,VERSATALITY,LETHALITY,ACCURACY...?????


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## aanshu001

udiptoghsh said:


> WHATS BETTER.....LCA TEJAS..OR JAS 39 GRIPEN???
> PLEASE POST AND COMMENT UR VEIWS ON THE BASIS OF LOOKS,DESIGN,STEALTH,WEAPON SYSTEMS,RADAR,FLIGHT CONTROL AND RADARS,AVIONICS,COMBAT ROBUSTNESS,TECHNOLOGY,VERSATALITY,LETHALITY,ACCURACY...?????



Any day Gripen is better platform with better avionics and radar and it is flying in numbers our baby is still in test bed.


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## luckyyy

udiptoghsh said:


> WHATS BETTER.....LCA TEJAS..OR JAS 39 GRIPEN???
> PLEASE POST AND COMMENT UR VEIWS ON THE BASIS OF LOOKS,DESIGN,STEALTH,WEAPON SYSTEMS,RADAR,FLIGHT CONTROL AND RADARS,AVIONICS,COMBAT ROBUSTNESS,TECHNOLOGY,VERSATALITY,LETHALITY,ACCURACY...?????


 
RADAR : LCA far ahead of gripen !!


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## yousaf goebbels

*are u sure this is even an airplane????let alone a fighter jet......art of deception...welldone *


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## yousaf goebbels

aanshu001 said:


> Any day Gripen is better platform with better avionics and radar and it is flying in numbers our baby is still in test bed.


 
40 years and still in bed test???? well done .....it might out-class gripen after 60 years or so maybe 

we already have something that is capable of out classing gripen and f-16'S


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## luckyyy

yousaf goebbels said:


> *are u sure this is even an airplane????let alone a fighter jet......art of deception...welldone *


 
there are better threads available for you to make some contributing comments..

like this one :
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/107500-inside-paf.html#post1736689


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## yousaf goebbels

luckyyy said:


> there are better threads available for you to make some contributing comments..
> 
> like this one :
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/107500-inside-paf.html#post1736689


 
i am just interested in knowing how many indians actually believe tejas is a fighter jet..
i mean come one....what the hell is this thing????


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## luckyyy

yousaf goebbels said:


> i am just interested in knowing how many indians actually believe tejas is a fighter jet..
> i mean come one....what the hell is this thing????


 
nobody is a xpert here on such matters , we has t belive what the top airforce official says..
as far as IAF is concern , indians know that IAF never compromise on quality , if the top IAF official says that LCA has potential , it means it has !!


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## Jon Snow

yousaf goebbels said:


> i am just interested in knowing how many indians actually believe tejas is a fighter jet..
> i mean come one....what the hell is this thing????


 
pitiful attempt at trolling........ All you've shown till now is that you count double and claim to have a psychic ability to tell whether a plane can fight or not by just looking at it........am sure that the paf can use that talent of yours so why dont you go waste their time for a change


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## SpArK



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## Basanti

ignore ignore
ignore the noobs
they will get tired
and will eventually scoot


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## udiptoghsh

i really wanted some serious discussions of the comparison of the fighters......please guys...stop posting craps..nd please share ur veiws as to which is a superior fighter plane all around.....IF YOU ALL HAVE ANY IDEA.....THEN!!!
AND FOR UR KIND INFORMATION mr.yousuf goebels....u r so away from reality..let me tell u something on a serious note.. TEJAS NO DOUBT IS ONE OF THE MOST MODERN 4.5TH GENERATION AIRCRAFT IN THE WORLD TODAY...OVERALLY..AND IT WOULD ALSO BE A PREFFERED FRONTLINE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FOR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES...AND FEW COUNTRIES HAVE ALSO SHOWED INTEREST IN BUYING THE AIRCRAFT..IN FUTURE AS A FRONTLINE AIRCRAFT..!!!!
but the thing is that i actually wanted to know which is the better one of lca tejas and jas 39 gripen..which unfortunately i could not get any such useful post that could show me the actual comparissons of both the aircrafts!!!!!!


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## sancho

udiptoghsh said:


> i really wanted some serious discussions of the comparison of the fighters......please guys...stop posting craps..nd please share ur veiws as to which is a superior fighter plane all around.....IF YOU ALL HAVE ANY IDEA.....THEN!!!
> AND FOR UR KIND INFORMATION mr.yousuf goebels....u r so away from reality..let me tell u something on a serious note.. TEJAS NO DOUBT IS ONE OF THE MOST MODERN 4.5TH GENERATION AIRCRAFT IN THE WORLD TODAY...OVERALLY..AND IT WOULD ALSO BE A PREFFERED FRONTLINE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FOR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES...AND FEW COUNTRIES HAVE ALSO SHOWED INTEREST IN BUYING THE AIRCRAFT..IN FUTURE AS A FRONTLINE AIRCRAFT..!!!!
> but the thing is that i actually wanted to know which is the better one of lca tejas and jas 39 gripen..which unfortunately i could not get any such useful post that could show me the actual comparissons of both the aircrafts!!!!!!


 
Both are in the same class, offers comparable techs and capabilities, both are cost-effective and useful in A2A and A2G. The slight advantages the Gripen has are more payload (~ 5t vs 3.5t), MTOW (14t vs 13.3t), maneuverability with canards, but mainly that it is developed and operational since years, while LCA MK1 is only on the way to serial production state and will take some time to mature.

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## chat

Is it not the LSP5 ?they will freeze the design for production of MK-1 series?


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## luckyyy

udiptoghsh said:


> i really wanted some serious discussions of the comparison of the fighters......please guys...stop posting craps..nd please share ur veiws as to which is a superior fighter plane all around.....IF YOU ALL HAVE ANY IDEA.....THEN!!!
> AND FOR UR KIND INFORMATION mr.yousuf goebels....u r so away from reality..let me tell u something on a serious note.. TEJAS NO DOUBT IS ONE OF THE MOST MODERN 4.5TH GENERATION AIRCRAFT IN THE WORLD TODAY...OVERALLY..AND IT WOULD ALSO BE A PREFFERED FRONTLINE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FOR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES...AND FEW COUNTRIES HAVE ALSO SHOWED INTEREST IN BUYING THE AIRCRAFT..IN FUTURE AS A FRONTLINE AIRCRAFT..!!!!
> but the thing is that i actually wanted to know which is the better one of lca tejas and jas 39 gripen..which unfortunately i could not get any such useful post that could show me the actual comparissons of both the aircrafts!!!!!!


 
LCA has a far better RADAR then Gripen..

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## marcos98

India's Tejas fighter to get Derby missiles 








> A contract to integrate Rafael's Derby medium-range air-air missile with India's Tejas light combat aircraft will be signed soon, according to industry sources.
> 
> Delivery of the missiles is expected from the second half of 2012, following the final phase of integration tests that are planned for early next year.
> 
> 
> .....The Derby contract is an example of the huge potential market that Rafael is trying to exploit in India. *Company sources have described the nation as its current first priority, due to the size and diversity of its requirements.*



full article:
India's Tejas fighter to get Derby missiles


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## udiptoghsh

thanks a lot guys for the information...!!!!
can u just tell me which one has a better and powerful engine .....???
engine really matters a lot!!!!!!


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## luckyyy

udiptoghsh said:


> thanks a lot guys for the information...!!!!
> can u just tell me which one has a better and powerful engine .....???
> engine really matters a lot!!!!!!


 
both use the same engine F-404 , but the F-404IN version that LCA mk-1 has 10% more thrust then the Gripen..


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## udiptoghsh

luckyyy said:


> both use the same engine F-404 , but the F-404IN version that LCA mk-1 has 10% more thrust then the Gripen..


 
then why tejas has a lower payload than gripen????if it has a better engine..!!!!


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## luckyyy

udiptoghsh said:


> then why tejas has a lower payload than gripen????if it has a better engine..!!!!


 
coz LCA is a light COMBAT aircraft to serve the IAF under most challenging environment unlike the gripen which only has to serve the small nations greed to have a airforce...


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## udiptoghsh

luckyyy said:


> coz LCA is a light COMBAT aircraft to serve the IAF under most challenging environment unlike the gripen which only has to serve the small nations greed to have a airforce...


 
this anwer was a bit creepy.....!!!!
i mean common....a country well developed like sweden wont take a chance for their security just for the sake of making their airforce become a distinct one in the world....and no country makes aircraft just for the sake of its greed or something....its due to completely secure their skies....!!!!!!


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## Break the Silence

If , lca is a 4+ gen aircraft, then why some guys claims its just a 3rd gen fighter.. Even I also believes it is a 4+ gen fighter,


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## udiptoghsh

Break the Silence said:


> If , lca is a 4+ gen aircraft, then why some guys claims its just a 3rd gen fighter.. Even I also believes it is a 4+ gen fighter,


 
who the hell says so???????
either it will be the chinese..or the pakistanis...which is ever expected...so chill buddy...the mk 2 version of the lca tejas may also be a near 5th generation aircraft..with better..aviaonics,engine,stealth capabilities,radars .....and many more things!!!
chinese and pakistanis..have always been anti indians...so y do u even give it a thought....they could have even say lca tejas to be a 1st generation world war 1 aircraft...lolzzzzzzzzz........so would the world believe them...????


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## Break the Silence

udiptoghsh said:


> who the hell says so???????
> either it will be the chinese..or the pakistanis...which is ever expected...so chill buddy..*.the mk 2 version of the lca tejas may also be a near 5th generation aircraft..with better..aviaonics,engine,stealth capabilities,radars .....and many more things!!!*
> chinese and pakistanis..have always been anti indians...so y do u even give it a thought....they could have even say lca tejas to be a 1st generation world war 1 aircraft...lolzzzzzzzzz........so would the world believe them...????


 
Buddy, I cant chill now, I need explaanation of bolded part seroiously...IMO, it will never become an 5th gen aircraft, unless integration of latest tech with a totally new structral design will be implemented.


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## SQ8

udiptoghsh said:


> who the hell says so???????
> either it will be the chinese..or the pakistanis...which is ever expected...so chill buddy...the mk 2 version of the lca tejas may also be a near 5th generation aircraft..with better..aviaonics,engine,stealth capabilities,radars .....and many more things!!!
> chinese and pakistanis..have always been anti indians...so y do u even give it a thought....they could have even say lca tejas to be a 1st generation world war 1 aircraft...lolzzzzzzzzz........so would the world believe them...????



Oh yeah.. right.. its only been one way traffic..
Indians have been all praise with garlands and coconuts.


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## Ajaxpaul



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## 1000VA

India's Tejas fighter to get Derby missiles

By Arie Egozi

A contract to integrate Rafael's Derby medium-range air-air missile with India's Tejas light combat aircraft will be signed soon, according to industry sources.

Delivery of the missiles is expected from the second half of 2012, following the final phase of integration tests that are planned for early next year.

The active radar- and infrared-guided Derby, which provides an all-weather, beyond visual-range capability, has previously been acquired for the Indian navy's British Aerospace-built Sea Harrier FRS51 fighters. Fourteen aircraft have been modified to use the weapon, said Indian sources.

The Derby missile can be fired in lock-on before launch mode for short-range engagements, or in lock-on after launch mode for use against medium-range targets.

India's air force has so far signed for 40 production examples of the single-engined Tejas, but the service could eventually acquire up to 100 more in an improved Mk II configuration. The service is now evaluating more Israeli-made systems for the fighter, including additional weapons.

The Indian navy also could buy 60 of the Aeronautical Development Agency-designed Tejas.

The Derby contract is an example of the huge potential market that Rafael is trying to exploit in India. Company sources have described the nation as its current first priority, due to the size and diversity of its requirements.


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## sancho

udiptoghsh said:


> thanks a lot guys for the information...!!!!
> can u just tell me which one has a better and powerful engine .....???
> engine really matters a lot!!!!!!


 
Engine is just one part, the weight of the fighter is important in that regard as well and just like drag and as it seems, the latter is a problem for Tejas.

Tejas MK1 - GE404 IN 20 ~55kN dry thrust / 85kN AB thrust 
Gripen C/D - Volvo RM12 ~55kN dry thrust / 80kN AB thrust 

The payload is limited, due to the fact that the MK1 turned out to be heavier than initially planed, but with any new batch or upgrade, this will be improved anyway. The more limiting factor is the limited number of hardpoints, because even with more payload, it couldn't carry more weapons.


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## mastaan

udiptoghsh said:


> who the hell says so???????
> either it will be the chinese..or the pakistanis...which is ever expected...so chill buddy...the mk 2 version of the lca tejas may also be a near 5th generation aircraft..with better..aviaonics,engine,stealth capabilities,radars .....and many more things!!!
> chinese and pakistanis..have always been anti indians...so y do u even give it a thought....they could have even say lca tejas to be a 1st generation world war 1 aircraft...lolzzzzzzzzz........so would the world believe them...????



Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st! 

Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet... 

And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!

and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!

About Pakistan's anti-India nature, while I am a new member, i think I have seen it enough already that people with only hatred exist on both sides... So you will point at them and some from there will point at you... What value does it add... nothing. Let's contribute in a way where some illiterates like me could also learn a bit... Looking forward to my time here, lest am kicked our earlier 

Cheers!


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## Jon Snow

personally would have preferred the r 77m on the tejas instead of the derby, we are going for the easier option here(integration wise) and hoping that the astra is ready before long, if there are some delays in the astra program we will have a fighter seriously lacking in the bvr arena


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## Ghoster

sancho said:


> Both are in the same class, offers comparable techs and capabilities, both are cost-effective and useful in A2A and A2G. The slight advantages the Gripen has are more payload (~ 5t vs 3.5t), MTOW (14t vs 13.3t), *maneuverability with canards*, but mainly that it is developed and operational since years, while LCA MK1 is only on the way to serial production state and will take some time to mature.



Doesn't LEVCONS give advantage to LCA in maneuverability.


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## sancho

Ghoster said:


> Doesn't LEVCONS give advantage to LCA in maneuverability.


 
Hi, only NLCA will get LEVCONS to improve the low speed handling and AoA at carrier operations.

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## MumbaiIndians

mastaan said:


> Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st!
> 
> Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet...
> 
> And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!



Well, not really. The time when people used to restlessly whine about LCA project has long gone. But you can't blame cynics. India is full of them. 

Coming to your objections, they are outdated now. There has been tremendous improvement in avionics, mission software and system integration technology in last decade. IAF's interest in upgraded LCA-MKII shows that LCA is a matured platform. So, next logical step is to move towards AMCA and DRDO has begun the process.

And mark my words, people will keep saying LCA is a failure even after AMCA flies. Sometimes, I think media management/censoring like those in USA & China helps a lot in keeping focus on innovation.



mastaan said:


> and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!


 
It depends. India can't censor media like they do in China, USA and "manage" negative press that LCA gets often.

I think you might not be aware of this but Boeing, LM spend a lot of money on "managing" positive press about their products. Indian companies like HAL,DRDO since they are PSU's are not allowed to carry such practices. Now its upto you how you take it, good or bad, but this is how it works. If you don't like negative press around LCA, then ask yourself - "Are you ready that they use your tax-money to manage the press through $$ leverage?". Well, I prefer negative press than wasting my money on paying those corrupt media.

At the end of day, HAL/DRDO are doing a job better than what IAI in Israel has done(considering IAI has free access to DARPA's labs in USA). Press that LCA gets is different issue. Its more about "image-making".

For example, Gripen is only 25% swedish(compared to over 50% Indian content in Arjun MBT) but still noone blames Gripen as "imported aircraft". Noone says that american space shuttle is a copied German technology. Well, as I said, its about image-making. And, still noone knows how much of J-20 is imported becoz China "manages" press. But USA manages press far better through a well-established generation old corporate-press nexus.

USA and China have made up their minds about "managing" press. They don't see anything wrong or immoral in paid corporate press. Surely, HAL/DRDO are behind in this area of managing press. But as I said, are we Indians ready for this? Becoz we often shy away from things which are immoral.

But again, apart from all this question of morality or immorality for that matter, there is not a single person in Indian media, who is technically qualified to give a rational opinion on a military fighter aircraft development. So, forget about even paying them because they would still suck.


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## MumbaiIndians

Nice pic of LCA there in flightglobal. 

Indian media lacks far behind in terms of quality and merit despite their tall claims of self-proclaimed expertise over technical & defence matters.


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## RPK

Coming soon, LCA's naval variant - www.daily.bhaskar.com

*Coming soon, LCA's naval variant*


Bangalore: The maiden flight of the naval variant of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will take to the skies in July, exactly a year after it rolled out from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's (HAL's) Aircraft Research and Design Centre hangar in Bangalore.

"We would be conducting the first flight of the LCA Naval Prototype-1 (NP1)  a trainer aircraft -- in July. The aircraft is currently undergoing a series of ground tests, and preparations are on for the flight certification which is mandatory before the first flight," said Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief controller R&D (Aeronautics and Service Interaction), Prahlada.

He said all agencies involved in the programme, like the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), HAL and the certifying agencies including Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) and Director General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA), are extremely cautious about ensuring that the first flight is carried out without any hassles.

"Being the first flight of the LCA naval programme we are extremely careful. We want to ensure that everything is put in place before the first flight and that the programme is as successful as the Indian Air Force (IAF) version which has had no accidents since it started flight tests on January 4, 2001," he said.

The LCA's IAF version has an impeccable record of completing over 1,600 flights without any incidents. The LCA NP-1 is different from its IAF counterpart. It has a new, stronger and longer landing gear, an arrester hook for ship deck landing, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision to facilitate landing on aircraft carriers, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems.

The LCA NP1 will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine and is specifically designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing, with high landing loads compared to its IAF counterpart.

The Navy has placed an order for six LCA Navy aircraft and is expected to replace the depleting Sea Harrier squadron. The LCA Naval variants will operate alongside the MiG-29Ks by 2014.

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## desimorty

The Derby AAM is a great choice, it provides what the R-77 doesn't.
Short range engagements
medium range engagements
lock on after launch
low weight

by contrast the R-77 onliy offers medium range engagements, with a slightly better range.

if you notice, even the Astra is lighter then the R-77/ AMRAAM and SD-10
lighter missiles allows you to carry more.

even if the Tejas doesn't have multiple hard points, dual rail launchers can be employed, like with the harrier.

If you notice the weight, with comparable missiles
Russian R-77= 175 - 226 kg (the ones the InAF operate are R-77M1 and weigh 226 kg) Keep in mind the biggest advantage to the R-77 has always been range.
American AMRAAM= 152 kg later variants are more at 200kg and offer 100 KMand the Pakistani's have this missile on the F-16's!
Japanese AAM-4=based on the AMRAAM weighs in at 222 kg, with a range of 100km headon
Chinese SD-10=at 199KG with a 100KM range, unique aspect is that this missile offers both active and passive seeker.
Indian ASTRA=154 kg with a 80-100km head on.

so basically, it is reasonable to assume that for every 200 KG, a missile gets a 100 KM, more or less. The Russians, Indians and perhaps possibly the Chinese have the best solid fuels. So they get more per weight then the other guys.

However, on needs to look into the rail launchers as well.






Currently the Harriers can carry Derby on dual rail launchers. Since each Derby weighs 100KG and after that there is no need for short range missiles as well.
The Derby will allow the Tejas mission profile to change. Basically during a mission, the Tejas could carry Derby on the outermost pylons since it weighs as much as a short range AAM. So doing both air to air or air to ground, the Tejas has 6 hard points available and saves 200kg.
Which doesn't seem much, but you just eliminated the need for BVR fighters as escorts during air to ground and most importantly for a naval Tejas, 200 kg saves a lot more.


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## udiptoghsh

Break the Silence said:


> Buddy, I cant chill now, I need explaanation of bolded part seroiously...IMO, it will never become an 5th gen aircraft, unless integration of latest tech with a totally new structral design will be implemented.


 
so thats wat i said..it will introduce more modern and better stuffs to make it a 5th gen aircraft..i never said the lca tejas mk1 with the same stuffs will be a 5th genration aircraft...it will not have much of a structural change cause the sealthyness of the aircraft will partly depend on the sructure..and mostly on the component........ that it will b made frm..which would actually b able to absorb radar's signals...!!!!!


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## udiptoghsh

mastaan said:


> Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st!
> 
> Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet...
> 
> And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!
> 
> and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!
> 
> About Pakistan's anti-India nature, while I am a new member, i think I have seen it enough already that people with only hatred exist on both sides... So you will point at them and some from there will point at you... What value does it add... nothing. Let's contribute in a way where some illiterates like me could also learn a bit... Looking forward to my time here, lest am kicked our earlier
> 
> Cheers!


 its already a 4.5th generation aircraft....nd the mk3 version will b made of radar signal absorbing components...so it will actually make it stealthy..apart frm the stealth its get frm its design alone....and by the time the mk3 version comes up..the flight controls..avionics..engine....payload...technology....will be equal to any fifth generation aircraft...!!!!!!!!


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## udiptoghsh

Santro said:


> Oh yeah.. right.. its only been one way traffic..
> Indians have been all praise with garlands and coconuts.


 
may b u dont know we common indians actually do not have any hatred against u guys...even i support pakistan on many reasons ....but the thing is that ministers..and politicians of both sides are the evil in developing hatred among us...shunnn them...!!!!
its my dream to see india and pakistan to b a single country once again........!!!!
the hatred i showed in my last post...was towards ur politicians who actually increases the gap between us...nd not our comon pakistani brothers and sisters.....!!!!!


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## sancho

jatt said:


> Currently the Harriers can carry Derby on dual rail launchers. Since each Derby weighs 100KG and *after that there is no need for short range missiles as well.*
> The Derby will allow the Tejas mission profile to change. Basically during a mission, the *Tejas could carry Derby on the outermost pylons since it weighs as much as a short range AAM*. So doing both air to air or air to ground, the Tejas has 6 hard points available and saves 200kg.
> Which doesn't seem much, but you just eliminated the need for BVR fighters as escorts during air to ground and most importantly for a naval Tejas, 200 kg saves a lot more.













As you can see on the pictures, the dual rail carries MR and SR missiles, not MR alone and why should there be no need for SR missiles anymore?
Also derby weighs 118Kg, western SR missiles just weighs around 90Kg and if the following is correct, LCAs external hardpoint carries only loads of 150Kg, which means 2 x derbys and the additional pylon weight would be too high for such a config:

http://www.lca-tejas.org/weapons.html


The only ways to increase weapon load would be wingtip stations, but according to some talks during Aero India with officials, that would have required a re-design of the wings. The other way is to get rid of as much fuel tanks as possible, by increasing the internal fuel. That is what they want to do with the MK2, so in any mission where LCA MK1 needs 2 x fuel tanks, MK2 just need 1 (centerline), which makes wingstations free for additional weapon loads.

Btw are these missiles on the Sea Harrier derby missiles?


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## MumbaiIndians

There are not enough hard-points for weapons load because the always-lagging IAF thinkers gave these requirements during 1990 to the designers of LCA. Now, suddenly IAF is realising their mistakes of misjuding their own projections of evolving air-force strengths & combat aircraft technology profiles in the region.

*Mark my words, after 15 years, IAF will blame AMCA for not being fulfilling their needs. That's because the current limit of 25 tons which IAF has imposed on AMCA keeps the whole programme very limited and small.* After 15 years, under 25-Ton class aircrafts will be totally outdated. IAF is making one more blunder by capping the capabilities of AMCA.

IAF should immediately revise their requirements and order AMCA to be atleast 35 Tons class aircraft, even if it means a delay of 3 more years in redesign phase. It will save them decades in future.

IAF types have this misunderstanding = They think "stealth" is all about making "small" and light/medium aircrafts! Someone explain these technically incompetent idiots that big and heavy class fighters can be stealth too. Its all about concepts, not size or weight. So, they want to keep AMCA outdated by forcing it to be below 25-Ton category, just because of their obsession(acquired from reading magazines from where they catch ideas). What a blunder! 

Wait 15 years, IAF will ask for scrapping of their own suggested AMCA design and will ask for AMCA-MkII and they will totally reject original AMCA requirements which they are proposing right now.

History will repeat and India will go for import of $30 Billion once more.


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> There are not enough hard-points for weapons load because the always-lagging IAF thinkers gave these requirements during 1990 to the designers of LCA. Now, suddenly IAF is realising their mistakes of misjuding their own projections of evolving air-force strengths & combat aircraft technology profiles in the region.


 
I critised it as well, but wouldn't be that harsh, because if you look at comparable fighters, it is not behind at all:

JF 17 - 7 hardpoints, no dedicated pod station
Gripen C/D - 7 + 1 just like LCA as well

The point is, for the interception role that these light class fighters are designed for, 7 hardpoints are enough, even for the same load the Jags carries, but by the fact that it should be a multi role fighter, more hardpoints or internal fuel are important.


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## MumbaiIndians

After 15 years, planes which carry 5 or 7 tons of payload will be totally OUTDATED.

IAF is committing a huge blunder by going for such small payload design on AMCA. Revise it to 10-Tons payload capability atleast!!!!! Stop living in stone ages, IAF!!


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## IndianArmy

MumbaiIndians said:


> After 15 years, planes which carry 5 or 7 tons of payload will be totally OUTDATED.
> 
> IAF is committing a huge blunder by going for such small payload design on AMCA. Revise it to 10-Tons payload capability atleast!!!!! Stop living in stone ages, IAF!!


 
Probably you still dont understand the advantages Service ceiling... This one feature can win you a war without taking a single hit especially when its Stealth


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> I critised it as well, but wouldn't be that harsh, because if you look at comparable fighters, it is not behind at all:
> 
> JF 17 - 7 hardpoints, no dedicated pod station
> Gripen C/D - 7 + 1 just like LCA as well
> 
> The point is, for the interception role that these light class fighters are designed for, 7 hardpoints are enough, even for the same load the Jags carries, but by the fact that it should be a multi role fighter, more hardpoints or internal fuel are important.


 
please see my 2nd post and tell me your views about this => Look at AMCA requirements which IAF has agreed on in joint panel with DRDO. Do you really think this AMCA plan suggested by IAF will stand utility of time in 2026? 

Just look at MMRCA contenders. AMCA should be atleast a notch above in terms of payload capability. Because by the time DRDO will be coming out with AMCA during 2022, whole world will have moved ahead with better programs of "10Tons+ payload" class.


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## MumbaiIndians

IndianArmy said:


> Probably you still dont understand the advantages Service ceiling... This one feature can win you a war without taking a single hit especially when its Stealth


 
so you are saying that service ceiling can't be achieved if we design with bigger payload in mind? We will just scale up whole thing. so, why not? Better engines, better wings, better technology. why set such low design aims now and blame DRDO 12 years later?


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## IndianArmy

MumbaiIndians said:


> so you are telling me that service ceiling can't be achieved if we design with bigger payload in mind? ..


 
Are you telling me that India would achieve it even before the Developed world? See , one can Experiment all the parameters at once only when he has a Distinguished Achievement in the Field, India is not in a stage to Experiment but stick to the basics...


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## MumbaiIndians

IndianArmy said:


> Are you telling me that India would achieve it even before the Developed world? See , one can Experiment all the parameters at once only when he has a Distinguished Achievement in the Field, India is not in a stage to Experiment but stick to the basics...


 


So, you are saying that noone has done this yet? That's a news to me. Oh wait, why IAF would want DRDO to even go for it. Because that what they plan to import after 12 years. Isn't it?

Oh right, why develop a capability which noone has done. Mistake sir mistake! Even Kaveri was a foolish mistake. why poor country like India went in for Kaveri. blah!! Find a better logic to argue here.

And, still you haven't answered my question on why IAF is limiting the AMCA capablities and making it an outdated plane in 2025+ timeframe.


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## MumbaiIndians

My query is this, someone explain that how come IAF's AMCA design specifications doesn't make it an OUTDATED fighter in 2025+ timeframe, when whole world will have moved to 10Ton+ class stealth fighters?

Is AMCA's payload capacity even comparable to J-20. Heck, even J-20 will have better versions by the time AMCA comes out. So, why go into AMCA with such low & outdated design aims?

It looks like someone has promised IAF import option down the 12 years line.


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## IndianArmy

MumbaiIndians said:


> So, you are saying that noone has done this yet? That's a news to me. Oh wait, why IAF would want DRDO to even go for it. Because that what they plan to import after 12 years. Isn't it?



IAF are no fools, they have had there PAK FA and FGFA as Strike Force, AMCA would be nothing but a Force Multiplier, And Why not? When Indian Defense Establishments are Confident enough to make one? Spending on spare parts looks wise for you but not for R&D is it?

An Economy can be saved in crisis if we have a Booming Defense market, and One can Pour money into such activities only when the economy is not in risk... 



MumbaiIndians said:


> Oh right, why develop a capability which noone has done. Mistake sir mistake! Even Kaveri was a foolish mistake. why poor country like India went in for Kaveri. blah!! Find a better logic to argue here.



Have You ever asked this Question to TATA, who started a Steel Market in an India which was not Industrialized at all... And where do you see them now? Situation dosent bother or Hinder Aspirations...



MumbaiIndians said:


> And, still you haven't answered my question on why IAF is limiting the AMCA capablities and making it an outdated plane in 2025+ timeframe.


 
Because IAF wants It Cheaply, IAF has a Better Option to Meet the Highest of its Demands By PAK FA and FGFA, IAF wants Good Force Multipliers, IAF wants it within Particular Timeframe,


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> please see my 2nd post and tell me your views about this => Look at AMCA requirements which IAF has agreed on in joint panel with DRDO. Do you really think this AMCA plan suggested by IAF will stand utility of time in 2026?
> 
> Just look at MMRCA contenders. AMCA should be atleast a notch above in terms of payload capability. Because by the time DRDO will be coming out with AMCA during 2022, whole world will have moved ahead with better programs of "10Tons+ payload" class.


 
Payload is dependent on what your aim is!

- 3 x 1200l fuel tanks = 2880Kg
- 2 x Derby BVR missiles = 236Kg
- 2 x R73 SR missiles = 210Kg
=> 3326Kg

So even for the long range and endurance interception role (plus some more weight for pylons and stuff) , the 3500Kg payload of MK1 is enough. So the more we want to do with LCA later, the more we have to improve it, be it with more payload, more hardpoints, or internal fuel, let alone radar and avionics.
There is still good potential in LCA and I prefer further developments on LCA way more than wasting time and money on AMCA!

Btw, if we think about the inital specs of LCA, we can have an idea what the scope for payload is:

MTOW: 13500Kg

- emtpy weight ~ 5500Kg
- internal fuel ~ 2500Kg

=> payload of around 5500Kg


With the higher thrust the MTOW can be increased as well and there is a scope comparable to Gripen NG for sure!


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## MumbaiIndians

IndianArmy said:


> IAF are no fools, they have had there PAK FA and FGFA as Strike Force, AMCA would be nothing but a Force Multiplier, And Why not? When Indian Defense Establishments are Confident enough to make one? Spending on spare parts looks wise for you but not for R&D is it?
> 
> An Economy can be saved in crisis if we have a Booming Defense market, and One can Pour money into such activities only when the economy is not in risk...
> 
> 
> 
> Have You ever asked this Question to TATA, who started a Steel Market in an India which was not Industrialized at all... And where do you see them now? Situation dosent bother or Hinder Aspirations...
> 
> 
> 
> Because IAF wants It Cheaply, IAF has a Better Option to Meet the Highest of its Demands By PAK FA and FGFA, IAF wants Good Force Multipliers, IAF wants it within Particular Timeframe,


 
That doesn't answer my question - Why IAF has specified an OUTDATED specs for AMCA? AMCA has no future in 2025+ era.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> Payload is dependent on what your aim is!
> 
> - 3 x 1200l fuel tanks = 2880Kg
> - 2 x Derby BVR missiles = 236Kg
> - 2 x R73 SR missiles = 210Kg
> => 3326Kg
> 
> So even for the long range and endurance interception role (plus some more weight for pylons and stuff) , the 3500Kg payload of MK1 is enough. So the more we want to do with LCA later, the more we have to improve it, be it with more payload, more hardpoints, or internal fuel, let alone radar and avionics.
> There is still good potential in LCA and I prefer further developments on LCA way more than wasting time and money on AMCA!
> 
> Btw, if we think about the inital specs of LCA, we can have an idea what the scope for payload is:
> 
> MTOW: 13500Kg
> 
> - emtpy weight ~ 5500Kg
> - internal fuel ~ 2500Kg
> 
> => payload of around 5500Kg
> 
> 
> With the higher thrust the MTOW can be increased as well and there is a scope comparable to Gripen NG for sure!


 
My question is on AMCA. please see above post. what's your opinion on IAF's specs for AMCA?


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## IndianArmy

MumbaiIndians said:


> That doesn't answer my question - Why IAF has specified an OUTDATED specs for AMCA? AMCA has no future in 2025+ era.


 
Please, dont comfort yourself asking the same question repeatedly even after answering it in the simplest of humor...


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## kingdurgaking

MumbaiIndians said:


> After 15 years, planes which carry 5 or 7 tons of payload will be totally OUTDATED.
> 
> IAF is committing a huge blunder by going for such small payload design on AMCA. Revise it to 10-Tons payload capability atleast!!!!! Stop living in stone ages, IAF!!


 
Just see how many missile is F-22 and F-35 are configured to carry..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Payload is dependent on what your aim is!
> 
> - 3 x 1200l fuel tanks = 2880Kg
> - 2 x Derby BVR missiles = 236Kg
> - 2 x R73 SR missiles = 210Kg
> => 3326Kg
> 
> So even for the long range and endurance interception role (plus some more weight for pylons and stuff) , the 3500Kg payload of MK1 is enough. So the more we want to do with LCA later, the more we have to improve it, be it with more payload, more hardpoints, or internal fuel, let alone radar and avionics.
> There is still good potential in LCA and I prefer further developments on LCA way more than wasting time and money on AMCA!
> 
> Btw, if we think about the inital specs of LCA, we can have an idea what the scope for payload is:
> 
> MTOW: 13500Kg
> 
> - emtpy weight ~ 5500Kg
> - internal fuel ~ 2500Kg
> 
> => payload of around 5500Kg
> 
> 
> With the higher thrust the MTOW can be increased as well and there is a scope comparable to Gripen NG for sure!


 
I dont think currently LCA can carry 3 fuel tanks that too of 1200l .. because each 1200l is approximately 1 tonne... 3 fuel tank means 3 tonne but at present it can carry only 2800 kg of external payload.. so an mission will be 2 fuel tanks with two short range missile and bombs.. or 4 long range missile...

so the need in MK2 should be more internal fuel.. approximately 1500l increase... seeing the increase in size i think it is possible.. and one 1500l tank in the center pylon... which should be more than enough for any mission....

by this LCA can carry more bombs and missile.... hoping that MTOW is 18 tonne..

this configuration will be achievable one.. as the weight can be increased by 4 tonne.. so dual launchers with derby of 8 missile with 2 tonne of bombs is possible..

a deadly combination...


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## kingdurgaking

MumbaiIndians said:


> My question is on AMCA. please see above post. what's your opinion on IAF's specs for AMCA?


 
There is an AMCA thread ... which you can search and post.. this is LCA.. it will be kind enough if you do the same...

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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> My question is on AMCA. please see above post. what's your opinion on IAF's specs for AMCA?


 
As I said, I am against AMCA as well but not for payload limitations like you, but because I don't see a real requirement for and would focus on improving LCA + developing AURA UCAV instead!

AMCA specs are not really known, let alone fixed yet. They first wanted just a secondary fighter for strikes mainly, then IAF said they want a fully multi role fighter, without compromises and in the last reports they even said it will be more advanced than FGFA.  The same oversetimations that we saw at LCA and that caused the problems and delays!


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I dont think currently LCA can carry 3 fuel tanks that too of 1200l .. because each 1200l is approximately 1 tonne... 3 fuel tank means 3 tonne but at present it can carry only 2800 kg of external payload.. so an mission will be 2 fuel tanks with two short range missile and bombs.. or 4 long range missile...
> 
> so the need in MK2 should be more internal fuel.. approximately 1500l increase... seeing the increase in size i think it is possible.. and one 1500l tank in the center pylon... which should be more than enough for any mission....
> 
> by this LCA can carry more bombs and missile.... hoping that MTOW is 18 tonne..
> 
> this configuration will be achievable one.. as the weight can be increased by 4 tonne.. so dual launchers with derby of 8 missile with 2 tonne of bombs is possible..
> 
> a deadly combination...


 
Sorry my fault, the centerline station can carry only 725/800l (depending on source) fuel tanks because of the space limitations between the gears, but the payload according the specs from Aero India is 3500Kg.


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## Trichy

I see lot of LCA night flights and dronir flying around b'lor at nights.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> As I said, I am against AMCA as well but not for payload limitations like you, but because I don't see a real requirement for and would focus on improving LCA + developing AURA UCAV instead!
> 
> AMCA specs are not really known, let alone fixed yet. They first wanted just a secondary fighter for strikes mainly, then IAF said they want a fully multi role fighter, without compromises and in the last reports they even said it will be more advanced than FGFA.  The same oversetimations that we saw at LCA and that caused the problems and delays!


 
If IAF had estimated their requirements properly, we wouldn't be wasting so much time on re-designing LCA-MkI upto Mk-II.

I think India should take a lesson from China here, and focus on domestic R&D rather than going after MRCA which will bring no ToT other than licenses for joining up puzzle pieces imported from europe.

China invests far more as % of their GDP in local R&D.


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## MumbaiIndians

If you look at 2025-2030 timeframe, India will endup depending on europeans or Russians for all of IAF's requirements, if it doesn't initiate AMCA now. IAF is doing a mistake by asking for LCA-MkII and wasting valuable resources on such outdated 3Ton-class platform(from 2025+ perspective).

Instead, its perfect time to focus on AMCA with all resources on it, so that IAF gets atleast 8Ton+(let's hope they revise) class stealth fighter in 2025-2030 timeframe, ready for induction.

If we look at LCA's development(1989-2011'IOC), its pretty impressive and with 20hours+ successful flights of Kaveri, I am sure DRDO will beat all cynics and will deliver AMCA even before 2025.


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## MumbaiIndians

Trichy said:


> I see lot of LCA night flights and dronir flying around b'lor at nights.


 
According to paanwala, DRDO has been asked to speed up FOC by Dec'2012, GoI has given green signal to AMCA. So the reason of so much speed-up.


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## MumbaiIndians

Photo taken: August' 2009.


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## MumbaiIndians

Uploaded by newsxlive on Jan 10, 2011.


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## kingdurgaking

MumbaiIndians said:


> If you look at 2025-2030 timeframe, India will endup depending on europeans or Russians for all of IAF's requirements, if it doesn't initiate AMCA now. IAF is doing a mistake by asking for LCA-MkII and wasting valuable resources on such outdated 3Ton-class platform(from 2025+ perspective).
> 
> Instead, its perfect time to focus on AMCA with all resources on it, so that IAF gets atleast 8Ton+(let's hope they revise) class stealth fighter in 2025-2030 timeframe, ready for induction.
> 
> If we look at LCA's development(1989-2011'IOC), its pretty impressive and with 20hours+ successful flights of Kaveri, I am sure DRDO will beat all cynics and will deliver AMCA even before 2025.


 
Actually work AMCA is started.. Initial studies are done... there is a change request from IAF on full stealth and multi role capabilities... lot of work is already going on....

To say LCA -MK2 will carry some of the technologies of AMCA.... while AMCA might have the updated version of the technologies on LCA-MK2... and there are six labs of DRDO which are already doing some research on stealth.. one such research has lead to LCH.... which is a very stealth looking copter... i am not sure whether there is any step to reduce the noise of the engine and blade to make it all aspect stealth...

LCA-MK2 is a very potent one.. and it is indeed to give some priority for the technologies that can go into LCA-MK2... MK-2 already comes into the circle of multi role.....


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## Black Widow

kingdurgaking said:


> Actually work AMCA is started.. Initial studies are done... there is a change request from IAF on full stealth and multi role capabilities... lot of work is already going on....
> 
> To say LCA -MK2 will carry some of the technologies of AMCA.... while AMCA might have the updated version of the technologies on LCA-MK2... and there are six labs of DRDO which are already doing some research on stealth.. one such research has lead to LCH.... which is a very stealth looking copter... i am not sure whether there is any step to reduce the noise of the engine and blade to make it all aspect stealth...
> 
> LCA-MK2 is a very potent one.. and it is indeed to give some priority for the technologies that can go into LCA-MK2... MK-2 already comes into the circle of multi role.....


 
Good, Great job by Antony... I hope He continue Indian Def Min... Even if BJP comes to power....


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> If IAF had estimated their requirements properly, we wouldn't be wasting so much time on re-designing LCA-MkI upto Mk-II.
> 
> I think India should take a lesson from China here, and focus on domestic R&D rather than going after MRCA which will bring no ToT other than licenses for joining up puzzle pieces imported from europe.
> 
> China invests far more as % of their GDP in local R&D.


 

That's wrong, because it's normal than a fighter platform evolve in terms of payload and hardpoints and don't come fully capable from the start, although IAF wants it like that.
Also China is spending more in local R&D because they have no other options! The can't form JV, or co-developments like we can, they can't buy western fighters like we can. We have these advantages and should used them more at the initial stages of LCA, then it would be ready and inducted by now.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> *Also China is spending more in local R&D because they have no other options! *The can't form JV, or co-developments like we can, they can't buy western fighters like we can. We have these advantages and should used them more at the initial stages of LCA, then it would be ready and inducted by now.


 
Wrong. They don't need options actually. Chinese are neither complacent nor they like to depend on western advisors like those running IAF, Army. We should stop blaming China and actually take a lesson from them.

Security doesn't come by inducting foreign fighters & bragging about it. Saudis are doing better if induction alone is measure of security, so where they ended up?


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> Wrong. They don't need options actually. Chinese are neither complacent nor they like to depend on western advisors like those running IAF, Army.


 
That's not correct, but if I point out why it would lead to silly flame games, completelly off topic. What we need is to learn as much as possible, as fast as possible and we can do it ony with partnerships and indigenous developments combined, otherwise we will never catch up and LCA (as a program, not as a fighter) is the perfect example how things could go wrong, when you want to do everythin alone.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> That's not correct, but *if I point out why it would lead to silly flame games, completelly off topic*. What we need is to learn as much as possible, as fast as possible and we can do it ony with partnerships and indigenous developments combined, otherwise we will never catch up and LCA (as a program, not as a fighter) is the perfect example how things could go wrong, when you want to do everythin alone.


 
That's because you don't have anything to defend your argument. 

By the way, I don't think going alone in LCA was a mistake. *Actually, thats what we need to do more.* If DRDO has achieved IOC for LCA in just 21 years(1989-2011) under sanctions, then its better than european countries who had latest technology base. Even Eurofighter and Rafales lag so much compared to LCA programme.

Going alone approach is what brings innovaton. JV only brings foreign dependencies. FGFA is not ideal but its happening because we don't have political leadership who shows faith in native talent, like that in China.

*Same goes with MRCA. Its waste of money.* Better dump it and save money for AMCA, FGFA, N-AMCA and future engine research within India.


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> If DRDO has achieved IOC for LCA in just 21 years(1989-2011) under sanctions, then its better than european countries who had latest technology base. Even Eurofighter and Rafales lag so much compared to LCA programme.


 
Mh, why did we achieved IOC yet? Because we changed the indigenous engine with a foreign one, because we changed the indigenous radar with a foreign one, because we used foreign cosultancy to fix weight problems, as well redesigning NLCA.

If we had gone for co-developments with Elta, or Snecma for radar and engines from the start and not only when the indigenous developments failed, we would see squads of LCAs already inducted and flying over Indian skies! Same would be the case if we had used Elta 2032 and RD 93 engines as ready and available stop gaps, till indigenous counterparts would have been developed and mature, but we didn't and hoped that we can do it alone. But hope and overestimating our capabilities will lead us nowhere, a sad lesson that we learned through the LCA program.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> Mh, why did we achieved IOC yet? Because we changed the indigenous engine with a foreign one, because we changed the indigenous radar with a foreign one, because we used foreign cosultancy to fix weight problems, as well redesigning NLCA.



Even Gripen has foreign engine. Did that prevent it from gaining IOC? Also, Sweden has no aero-engine R&D efforts. Their security scenario(under umbrella of west) doesn't require it.

LCA's RADAR is home-made MMR. "AESA for LCA" project was sanctioned only in Dec 2009, with development variant to be available by 2013. Western countries started it decades back. So, if DRDO comes out with first AESA flight on LCA before 2015, it will be world record!

Also, IAF is adamant about "latest" AESA and not ready to proceed in steps & begin with whats available, which is what R&D is about - Go in steps, stand behind your TEAM, support them till the end. Even USAF or Europeans didn't attempt to go AESA in first attempt. If IAF lacks maturity to understand R&D profiles & technology roadmaps, we can't blame others for that. A mature approach would have been to induct whats available in 100-120 so domestic production facilities get setup and industry gets a boost. Then, in next step, they can talk about AESA and all gizmos. 

*Biggest problem with domestic R&D has been IAF's immature attitude of demanding copy of exactly what West has. They are simply not ready to accept what they get and allow R&D to move in steps, which is normal in west and european R&D houses which are century old now. IAF behaves like a kid who want to grow up fast, but immature enough to not understand that there is no shortcut!

If IAF acts in more mature way, and stand behind the team, outcomes will be much better. R&D is all about sticking and perseverance. But IAF's attitude is - "we won't touch it. we are too lazy to participate in programe. that's not my job. we prefer roaming around in foreign airshows".*

IAF has a lot to learn from PLAF and USAF, in terms of maturity. Its still far away from that stage.



sancho said:


> *If we had gone* for co-developments with Elta, or Snecma for radar and engines from the start and not only when the indigenous developments failed, *we would* see squads of LCAs already inducted and flying over Indian skies! Same would be the case *if we had* used Elta 2032 and RD 93 engines as ready and available stop gaps, till indigenous counterparts *would have been* developed and mature, but *we didn't* and *hoped* that we can do it alone. But *hope and overestimating* our capabilities *will lead us nowhere*, a *sad* lesson that we learned through the LCA program.


 
My dear, life is all about learning & sticking to your efforts. Even first 20 of american GE aero-engines failed and blasted on testbeds. Did they start crying or whining? No.

You have two options in life - Live in past, cry about it, be pessimistic, beat your chest  OR be positive, humble, act in mature way and stand behind your team.

So far, IAF has failed to show a mature leadership. Same is the case with Army. Navy is far more mature and have better approach to things. They focus on realities rather than living in past and being cynical, pessimistic and showing "devdas" mentality.

*IAF = Indian army = Devdas.
Indian Navy(IN) = A mature leadership, quite comparable to USN.*


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## luckyyy

MumbaiIndians said:


> By the way, I don't think going alone in LCA was a mistake. Actually, thats what we need to do more. *If DRDO has achieved IOC for LCA in just 21 years(1989-2011) under sanctions,* then its better than european countries who had latest technology base. Even Eurofighter and Rafales lag so much compared to LCA programme.


 
F-35 yet to achive IOC and was due on 2016 but further pushed back to 2018...it a only a troll if someone points about the delay in LCA , you are correct to point out that LCA is a long lap forward in extablishing technology base in india...

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## Jon Snow

@MumbaiIndians :- LCA radar is not indigenous mmr but elta 2032.. And AESA will only be ready around 2018-2020

Also the LCA has not met up with requirements of the IAF even after 21 years so why should IAF trust HAL again for the AMCA? going for the MRCA and making tot an important part of it to improve indigenous technology - thats a mature decision, trusting DRDO and HAL to deliver the goods even after they have failed in the past - thats just stupid


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## luckyyy

Jon Snow said:


> @MumbaiIndians :- LCA radar is not indigenous mmr but elta 2032.. And AESA will only be ready around 2018-2020
> 
> Also the LCA has not met up with requirements of the IAF even after 21 years so why should IAF trust HAL again for the AMCA? going for the MRCA and making tot an important part of it to improve indigenous technology - thats a mature decision, trusting DRDO and HAL to deliver the goods even after they have failed in the past - thats just stupid


in which aspect the LCA not meet with requirements of the IAF , could you please enlighten us..


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> @MumbaiIndians :- LCA radar is not indigenous mmr but elta 2032.. And AESA will only be ready around 2018-2020
> 
> Also the LCA has not met up with requirements of the IAF even after 21 years so why should IAF trust HAL again for the AMCA? going for the MRCA and making tot an important part of it to improve indigenous technology - thats a mature decision, trusting DRDO and HAL to deliver the goods even after they have failed in the past - thats just stupid


 
I dont think trust is the actual word.. it is the IAF commitment which has lacked... just jotdown how IAF has been changing there requirement.. from a military thrust of 81KN fighter to a 95KN fighter clearly shows IAF has no management principle or commitment on what they want

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## Jon Snow

luckyyy said:


> in which aspect the LCA not meet with requirements of the IAF , could you please enlighten us..


 Tejas flies, but IAF dithers
Read the article and you will find out. also iaf wanted an indigenous fighter- not a fighter with 40% indigenous tech.
the LCA cant fire a bvr missile yet or even make a 7g manouver and you tell me it is fully compliant??
note that I am not saying it will not become compliant by the time of FOC, but as of now a lot of work needs to be put in


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## luckyyy

Jon Snow said:


> Tejas flies, but IAF dithers
> Read the article and you will find out. also iaf wanted an indigenous fighter- not a fighter with 40% indigenous tech.
> *the LCA cant fire a bvr missile yet *or even make a 7g manouver and you tell me it is fully compliant??
> note that I am not saying it will not become compliant by the time of FOC, but as of now a lot of work needs to be put in


 
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...dias-tejas-fighter-to-get-derby-missiles.html

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## Jon Snow

luckyyy said:


> India's Tejas fighter to get Derby missiles


 the article states that the contract to get the derby will be signed soon. the missiles will start arriving some time next year.
thus making it clear that the lca will not have bvr capability till next year


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## Jon Snow

kingdurgaking said:


> I dont think trust is the actual word.. it is the IAF commitment which has lacked... just jotdown how IAF has been changing there requirement.. from a military thrust of 81KN fighter to a 95KN fighter clearly shows IAF has no management principle or commitment on what they want


I doubt the IAF cares much for reasons for the delay in LCA( especially if they are to blame partially). they seem to have zero confidence in indigenous fighter building capacity of india. they are on board with the amca only because they know they already have the fgfa in their pockets


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> I doubt the IAF cares much for reasons for the delay in LCA( especially if they are to blame partially). they seem to have zero confidence in indigenous fighter building capacity of india. they are on board with the amca only because they know they already have the fgfa in their pockets


 
IAF dont care because they are the customers.. there threat perception is changing from time to time ... i guess they have understood there mistake from LCA.. and now they are on board for MK-2 and AMCA from day one... even i remember IAF ACM was saying let the DRDO define the technology and they will validate it(this shows still they cant define anything).. but on the level of participation yes they have changed there position...


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> the article states that the contract to get the derby will be signed soon. the missiles will start arriving some time next year.
> thus making it clear that the lca will not have bvr capability till next year


 
It is only contract to procure new Derby.... but Derby has been already integrated by DRDO on sea harrier... so they have the expertise and they have the missile in there hand to test it...

Though the integration will happen latter in this year.. but test will be carried next year ... there are other serious test going on... one is the wake test...anti spin test.... and there are some critical test like increasing AoA and g test.. which is more important and will be completed this year..


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## Jon Snow

kingdurgaking said:


> It is only contract to procure new Derby.... but Derby has been already integrated by DRDO on sea harrier... so they have the expertise and they have the missile in there hand to test it...
> 
> Though the integration will happen latter in this year.. but test will be carried next year ... there are other serious test going on... one is the wake test...anti spin test.... and there are some critical test like increasing AoA and g test.. which is more important and will be completed this year..


 
yes, the lca is improving and will probably become compliant to the iaf by time of foc.....but it isnt right now- that was the point i was making


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> yes, the lca is improving and will probably become compliant to the iaf by time of foc.....but it isnt right now- that was the point i was making


 
Thats what we are trying to explain... IAF requirement has changed from 81KN to 95 KN... so it will not meet.. if the earlier requirement has been justified they would have placed ordered.. 

Right now they wanted lot from this smaller plane like extended range with more internal fuel (add a 1200litre drop tank within the body) + 5 tonne of just bomb payload itself... incase if the MTOW exceeds Mirage with the same empty weight which i think this is possible...

Right now the empty weight is 6560(it was supposed to be 5400kg).. so by god's grace if they reduced the structural weight and the new weight stands at 6600kg ... then the loaded weight with just internal fuel of 3500 kg will be 10 tonne and add two 1200 litre drop tank of 1 tonne which will be 12 tonne which is still less than M2K loaded weight... so bombs and other payloads if you had 5 tonne it comes to max of 17 tonne... which is almost equal or more than the payload of J-10... there by it will increase thrust to weight by 1.0 ... Since the wing area will be increased so the wing loading should be same or even if it increases to 300 it will be still agile.... 

see how deadly the IAF requirements are... (They are looking for the fuel same as M2K + more payload)... 

Right now Tejas carries same payload of M2K but with less fuel...


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> Even Gripen has foreign engine. Did that prevent it from gaining IOC? Also, Sweden has no aero-engine R&D efforts. Their security scenario(under umbrella of west) doesn't require it.



Wrong in many ways! They had Volvo aero engines long ago and the engine in the Gripen is a Volvo engine as well, although around 40% is GE origin. The point is, they planed from the start to modify a proven foreign engine, instead of developing an new indigenous one. That's why they had not such problems and delays like we had.




MumbaiIndians said:


> LCA's RADAR is home-made MMR. "AESA for LCA" project was sanctioned only in Dec 2009, with development variant to be available by 2013. Western countries started it decades back. So, if DRDO comes out with first AESA flight on LCA before 2015, it will be world record!



MMR is not completely homemade, but uses parts of the Elta 2032 as well, again not from the start, but when we realised that they offer better techs that we can't develop on our own so far and the AESA is even a better example! We started developments alone, IAF found out that it's below their requirements, now they search for an co-development partner for help.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> Wrong in many ways! They had Volvo aero engines long ago and the engine in the Gripen is a Volvo engine as well, although around 40% is GE origin. The point is, *they planed from the start to modify a proven foreign engine, instead of developing an new indigenous one. *That's why they had not such problems and delays like we had.


 
You can't modify a foreign engine just like that. You need blueprints, full access to design codes. Sweden is not under technology sanctions.


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## gulte

sancho said:


> Wrong in many ways! They had Volvo aero engines long ago and the engine in the Gripen is a Volvo engine as well, although around 40% is GE origin. The point is, they planed from the start to modify a proven foreign engine, instead of developing an new indigenous one. That's why they had not such problems and delays like we had.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MMR is not completely homemade, but uses parts of the Elta 2032 as well, again not from the start, but when we realised that they offer better techs that we can't develop on our own so far and the AESA is even a better example! We started developments alone, IAF found out that it's below their requirements, now they search for an co-development partner for help.


 
Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.

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## MumbaiIndians

gulte said:


> Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.


 
Good point. 

Also, Israel has access to dual-use american defense research and this is primary reason behind blunder of Israeli dependence on USA. *There is barely an Israeli weapon system which doesn't depend on USA for critical components.* For every sell to India, they need permission from daddy(USA).

*On other hand, DRDO has developed our AESA on its own. A slow but far better approach*. Kargil & 26/11 has proved again that India has to chart out its own path. Others won't fight India's wars. Its another matter that NRI lobby is chest-beating about dumping their american daddy in MRCA. *Israel is in mess because it depends too much on USA for security and advices on relations with its neighbours.*

India is not Israel and will never be.


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## luckyyy

...............


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## Black Widow

MMR radar: Its based on ELta 2032, The processors are bought from Israel on which DRDO wrote its own code.. Some ppl are skeptic over processor we bought... I would like to give an example...

In my company we buy hardware (Processor) from Sun solaris, and later on that we write our code... No one rant that our product is not indigenous.

I don know what logic ppl apply to prove that MMR is non-indigenous... 

Second and foremost point,* % of indigenous: * I never understood what this means??? BMW/Jaguar/Benz buy their components from India and China (A small city name Belgaum produce Cranks which is used for various range of vehilce (Bike to Cruise ship)) This is how Business work... 

Even if we buy Engine, Radar, Avionics, Weapon and Integrate it it is 100% Indigenous..

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## MumbaiIndians

Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.


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## sancho

MumbaiIndians said:


> You can't modify a foreign engine just like that. You need blueprints, full access to design codes. Sweden is not under technology sanctions.


 
You can, if you are in a partnership and that's what they went for.
True, but we wasn't from Russia, or France as well, we had safer options for co-developments, or as stop gap solutions and if we wanted, we could even had joint with the Swedes in that time for Gripen/LCA. That also would have been a great chance, but the decision to develop anything on our own was the major mistake in the LCA program.
The security of the nation, the safty of our pilots, the capability of our industry would be way ahead now, if we have made better decisions back then, especially with a more realistic analysis of our own R&D capabilities!




MumbaiIndians said:


> Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.



 




gulte said:


> Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.


 
Sorry, the other way around 40% are Swedish, 60% are original GE parts of the F404 engine:



> Volvo Aero RM12 (Sweden), Aero-engines - Turbofan
> 
> Overview
> This afterburning turbofan was developed jointly with General Electric to power the JAS 39 Gripen
> 
> Description
> On 3 June 1981 a consortium of Swedish aerospace companies submitted to the FMV (Swedish Defence Material Administration) the proposal for the next-generation fighter, then called the JAS 39. The document described a relatively small aircraft, powered by a single engine derived from the General Electric (GE) F404. The proposal was accepted, leading to the Saab Gripen (English name, Griffin). The first prototype flew on 9 December 1988.GE Aircraft Engines retains rights to the basic F404 design, and its Lynn, Massachusetts, plant supplies approximately 60 per cent by value of the parts for each engine, in the form of a self-contained production kit. In return, Volvo Aero not only supplies the other 40 per cent, but is also a partner, usually with a 20 per cent share, in all F404 applications. It supplies F404 parts to GE, similar to those that it manufactures for the RM12.Compared with other F404 engines, the RM12 develops significantly increased thrust. This has been achieved by increasing the turbine-inlet temperature by up to 105°C, made possible by changes to the hot-section materials, and by increasing the fan airflow. Because the Gripen is a single-engined aircraft, the RM12 fan is designed to meet more stringent bird-strike requirements. In turn, this requires changes to the control system (itself tailored to a single-engine application), with built-in redundancy to ensure get-home power.RM12 testing started at GE Lynn in June 1984, and testing of the first of six complete RM12 engines in Sweden began at Trollhättan on 23 January



http://articles..com/articles/-Aero-Engines/Volvo-Aero-RM12-Sweden.html


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> You can, *if you are in a partnership* and that's what they went for.
> True, but we wasn't from Russia, or France as well, we had safer options for co-developments, or as stop gap solutions and *if we* wanted, *we could* even had joint with the Swedes in that time for Gripen/LCA. That also *would have been* a great chance, but the decision to develop anything on our own *was the major mistake *in the LCA program.
> The security of the nation, the safty of our pilots, the capability of our industry would be way ahead now, *if we have made better decisions back then*, especially with a more realistic analysis of our own R&D capabilities!


 
My dear, life is all about learning & sticking to your efforts. Even first 20 of american GE aero-engines failed and blasted on testbeds. Did they start crying or whining? No.

You have two options in life - Live in past, cry about it, be pessimistic, beat your chest OR be positive, humble, act in mature way and stand behind your team.

So far, IAF has failed to show a mature leadership. Same is the case with Army. Navy is far more mature and have better approach to things. They focus on realities rather than living in past and being cynical, pessimistic and showing "devdas" mentality.

*IAF = Indian army = Devdas.
Indian Navy(IN) = A mature leadership, quite comparable to USN.*


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## luckyyy

MumbaiIndians said:


> Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.


 
everyone like to became a partner , only once the project is complete !!

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## soaringphnx

MumbaiIndians said:


> Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.


 
I cant believe you can say such a thing. sancho is one of the most knowledgeable indian members on this forum. He has the respect of a lot of members.

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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> I cant believe you can say such a thing. sancho is one of the most knowledgeable indian members on this forum. He has the respect of a lot of members.


 
Does he need your help in trolling?


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## kingdurgaking

MumbaiIndians said:


> Does he need your help in trolling?


 
Oke i think we shouldnt accuse some one has trolling if he is not agreeing with your views... he has his own view and he puts the same in the form of proof... if you dont agree just counter it with your point.... 

Even I too had lot of heated discussion with him many times... just take what is valuable.. so far we have seen him never moved out of the topic...

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> MMR is not completely homemade, but uses parts of the Elta 2032 as well, again not from the start, but when we realised that they offer better techs that we can't develop on our own so far and the AESA is even a better example! We started developments alone, IAF found out that it's below their requirements,* now they search for an co-development partner for help.*


 


sancho said:


> As I said,* I am against AMCA as well *but not for payload limitations like you, but because I don't see a real requirement for and would focus on improving LCA + developing AURA UCAV instead!
> 
> AMCA specs are not really known, let alone fixed yet. They first wanted just a secondary fighter for strikes mainly, then IAF said they want a fully multi role fighter, without compromises and in the last reports they even said it will be more advanced than FGFA.  The same oversetimations that we saw at LCA and that caused the problems and delays!


 
the main point is no one even trusted the DRDO capabilities to build LCA when the project comes up and then in the senctins comes up.....how could you say then india shouls have gone for co-developing and partner on LCA ..
as far as AMCA is concern , you may go against it , didn't bother anybody , it your personal wish , but i don't thing DRDO will came up in open with detail of the project at this stage just to make armchair gernals happy.....

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## Black Widow

Allthough It is not official AMCA thread, i would like to discuss AMCA here, coz AMCA is extension of LCA.. So I am not derailing the thread...
1. The IAF should freeze there requirement. IAF and DRDO must freeze the time bound requirement (this is what happen in corporate world, DRDO must kick hard IAF A**, they did lot of drama during LCA development) 
2. Any next requirement of IAF will be covered in next batch/Block.. 
3. DRDO agree only to realistic requirement and complete it on time by any hook or crook (reverse-engineer, co-operation, tech transfer, spying )

Why AMCA???? 
1. To gain technological edge...
2. per flight cost of PAK-FA will be too high... AMCA will have less (assumption)
3. If we make it LO instead of VLO then also it will be an achivement. It will act as filler.


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## MumbaiIndians

kingdurgaking said:


> Even I too had lot of heated discussion with him many times... just take what is valuable.. *so far we have seen him never moved out of the topic*...



Stick to the topic then. 

Two trolls are enough to derail this thread. Do they need you?


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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> I cant believe you can say such a thing. sancho is one of the most knowledgeable indian members on this forum. He has the respect of a lot of members.






kingdurgaking said:


> Oke i think we shouldnt accuse some one has trolling if he is not agreeing with your views... he has his own view and he puts the same in the form of proof... if you dont agree just counter it with your point....
> 
> Even I too had lot of heated discussion with him many times... just take what is valuable.. so far we have seen him never moved out of the topic...


 

Thanks guys, but it's not worth to make a big discussion out of it. Hhe might not liked that I corrected some of his points and that's why this is his reaction. I didn't felt the need to reply on it, just like I didn't on his earlier accusations which had gone too OT and to unnecessary flame games with Chinese members.




luckyyy said:


> the main point is no one even trusted the DRDO capabilities to build LCA when the project comes up and then in the senctins comes up.....how could you say then india shouls have gone for co-developing and partner on LCA ...



The engine and radar developments had nothing to do with DRDO, but LRDE and GTRE. These are the 2 parts of the LCA program that failed and caused the delays and that was unnecessary as I explaind. The sanctions had their part, but bad planing and overestimating were the bigger problem! 

For example, GTRE had no experience with engine developments and still they was chosen to develop Kaveri engine alone. Why not HAL that had experience with the licence productions of several Russian and western engines? 
Why did they planed with Kaveri from the start, why not with a proven stop gap engine first? 
Even Dassault fitted the proven GE 404 engine into Rafale prototypes, till M88 was ready! We could have integrated RD93 (single engine version of the RD33 that HAL produces in India), or the Snecma M53-P2 (engine of Mirage 2000), both safe and sanctionproof options that were even in operational service in IAF.

As you can see, there were better ways and good options available, but we wanted to do it alone and paid the price. Now 20 years later we have 2 different foreign engines for LCA and most likely and co-development for Kaveri engine, because we had to admit that we couldn't do it alone and the same can be said about MMR/AESA as well.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> 2. per flight cost of PAK-FA will be too high... AMCA will have less (assumption)



That's the only real advantage it will have, otherwise it doesn't offer us anything that we couldn't get through FGFA anyway. From the operational point of view AURA UCAV gives way more advantages to IAF than AMCA could and it would be even more cost-effective (single engine, no radar, less mechanical parts for flight performance, no cockpit...).


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> That's the only real advantage it will have, otherwise it doesn't offer us anything that we couldn't get through FGFA anyway. From the operational point of view AURA UCAV gives way more advantages to IAF than AMCA could and it would be even more cost-effective (single engine, no radar, less mechanical parts for flight performance, no cockpit...).


 
One advantage is though AMCA doesn't seem much value... but it is very much a needed program to develope the expertise because for country like India (we are NAM) should be able to be independent.. we are late in this field and we need to carry on...


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## MumbaiIndians

LCA is an R&D project. R&D doesn't work by deadlines. Manufacturing does. 

IAF is quite immature to set deadlines on LCA because these half-educated immature IAF types learn about technology trends by roaming around in weapon shows or reading western magazines but never hold any masters or never had any *work experience* on engineering R&D project on the floor, to understand how it evolves in a laboratory.

On other hand, USAF has highly qualified technicians/scientists as advisors in their top bodies, who have actually worked in defence research labs for decades. *They don't blabber in public like Indian Airforce officers do.* They don't whine when 20 GE engines are blasting on tedbeds in a row or when F-35 IOC is delayed to 2018.

India is still immature country when it comes to mindset of people(specially those in IAF and Army). Closing down of R&D division working on Marut, was biggest blunder IAF committed and for which India is still paying the price.

The same fatal mindset still exist in armed forces.

*Unless you bring in people from research labs(DRDO,HAL,NAL) into IAF's top management, the situation won't change and media circus(IAF officers getting loose motions over LCA) will continue.*

As I said, IAF, Indian Army has lot of morons(armchair experts) in their top management who has zero *work experience* to make any sensible projections/decisions over LCA, AMCA or even Kaveri.

*DRDO/HAL never failed to deliver. Actually, they did far better job than even Western/european counterparts. It was IAF who misconceptualized/misprojected their expectations because of their lack of experience.*


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> One advantage is though AMCA doesn't seem much value... but it is very much a needed program to develope the expertise because for country like India (we are NAM) should be able to be independent.. we are late in this field and we need to carry on...


 
But what expertise can we get that we wouldn't get through LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA, AURA UCAV?

- stealth aiframe design and materials => FGFA, AURA UCAV
- Engine developments => LCA MK2, Kaveri - Snecma co-development, MMRCA, FGFA
- AESA radar => LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA,
- NG avionics => MMRCA, FGFA
- Remote control of aircrafts => DRDO Rustom, unmanned helicopter (with IAI), AURA UCAV 


As you can see, most fields are already covered and most of them through co-developments, JV, or ToT for licence productions, so why should we develop AMCA to get the same again? Also if gathering experience and knowledge is the aim, isn't a tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, Su 47, or Mig 1.44 enough?


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> The *engine and radar developments had nothing to do with DRDO, but LRDE and GTRE*.


 


Mr. Biggest troll of LCA thread, LRDE and GTRE are both laboratories of DRDO.

DRDO


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> But *what expertise can we get(from AMCA), that we wouldn't get through LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA, AURA UCAV?*


 
Experience of designing your own 5th generation stealth aircraft from paper to flight stage?


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> Also *if gathering experience and knowledge is the aim, isn't a tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, Su 47, or Mig 1.44 enough?*



 

That's because people who manufacture Su-30MKI in HAL, know zero about aircraft design. All they can do is, look at instructions delivered by Russians and join pieces together and test it.

Such people are called *technicians*. We need *designers*(those who design things like Su-30MKI, Rafale). *That's what LCA has given us and more work on AMCA will keep these designers within India.*

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## kish

Hmmm . . . People here must read proper and research a little before posting something . . . .


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> But what expertise can we get that we wouldn't get through LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA, AURA UCAV?
> 
> - stealth aiframe design and materials => FGFA, AURA UCAV
> - Engine developments => LCA MK2, Kaveri - Snecma co-development, MMRCA, FGFA
> - AESA radar => LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA,
> - NG avionics => MMRCA, FGFA
> - Remote control of aircrafts => DRDO Rustom, unmanned helicopter (with IAI), AURA UCAV
> 
> 
> As you can see, most fields are already covered and most of them through co-developments, JV, or ToT for licence productions, so why should we develop AMCA to get the same again? Also if gathering experience and knowledge is the aim, isn't a tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, Su 47, or Mig 1.44 enough?


 
The experience is we need AMCA which will be indigenous like ALH\LCH or Arjun... we went for JV for lot of parts in ALH... but we could build LCH we just the need for time.. when you look at our Aersenal ... which is full of older versions at 2030 we will not have most of the older versions

what we will have 
3 squad of Mig 29 
3 squad of Mirage (incase we upgrade)
10 squad of MMRCA
13 squad of super MKI
13 squad of FGFA
6 squad of LCA

which is 48 squad that is sanctioned... but mig 29 and Mirage may not stand agains 48.. so what will you go for? will you go for MMRCA and MKI?? no it is safe to go for 6 squad of AMCA which will be more potent at that time...


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## MumbaiIndians

AMCA will break all western and european records in terms of timeframe(design-to-prototype as well as prototype-to-IOC) and fusion of wide-range complex technologies.

Anyone wanna bet against me?


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## kingdurgaking

wanted to add more.. by 2030 MKI would have almost come to the end of its life.. and it is safe to replace with AMCA than go for an upgrade

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> The experience is we need AMCA which will be indigenous like ALH\LCH or Arjun... we went for JV for lot of parts in ALH... but we could build LCH we just the need for time..



No, we build LCH exactly because we did it the right way with Dhruv! Dhruv might be an indigenous project, but heavily dependent on foreing input (mainly German and French) and we used it as a base to learn and get experience, which now makes us able to redesign Dhruv to LCH, or develop LUH alone.

If we had gone the same succesful way with LCA, we would have gone for co-developments as I mentioned earlier, or even teamed up with a foreign nation that has more experience (Sweden for example), had it operational by now like Dhruv and would be able to redesign LCA alone (NLCA required help from EADS and they searched for US help as well). 




kingdurgaking said:


> when you look at our Aersenal ... which is full of older versions at 2030 we will not have most of the older versions...



First of all, AMCA is aimed to be ready by 2022/25 and FGFA will already be in production by then. Secondly the only fighters that could be replaced in that time by AMCA are Jaguars, which are purly ground attack fighters, meant for deep penetration strikes. AURA UCAV can be available at least at that time as well and would be the way better replacement for Jags then AMCA.
There is nor operational necessity for AMCA, when you have a 5th gen air superioirty fighter, as well a 5th gen UCAV for strikes, on top of huge numbers of 4.5 gen LCA, MMRCA, MKI. We could simply increase FGFA and AURA numbers and by 2035/40 we need an even more capable fighter than AMCA to replace MKIs. AMCA by then will be as late as LCA is today!


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## Black Widow

@ sancho:

You are a respected member of this forum (at least among Indian). your posts are most of the time useful and informative. Its not crime to accept others view during discussion if you feel its valid, even though its contradicting ur view...

Adamant behavior doesn't pay...

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## ramu

MumbaiIndians said:


> LCA is an R&D project. R&D doesn't work by deadlines. Manufacturing does.
> 
> IAF is quite immature to set deadlines on LCA because these half-educated immature IAF types learn about technology trends by roaming around in weapon shows or reading western magazines but never hold any masters or never had any *work experience* on engineering R&D project on the floor, to understand how it evolves in a laboratory.
> 
> On other hand, USAF has highly qualified technicians/scientists as advisors in their top bodies, who have actually worked in defence research labs for decades. *They don't blabber in public like Indian Airforce officers do.* They don't whine when 20 GE engines are blasting on tedbeds in a row or when F-35 IOC is delayed to 2018.
> 
> India is still immature country when it comes to mindset of people(specially those in IAF and Army). Closing down of R&D division working on Marut, was biggest blunder IAF committed and for which India is still paying the price.
> 
> The same fatal mindset still exist in armed forces.
> 
> *Unless you bring in people from research labs(DRDO,HAL,NAL) into IAF's top management, the situation won't change and media circus(IAF officers getting loose motions over LCA) will continue.*
> 
> As I said, IAF, Indian Army has lot of morons(armchair experts) in their top management who has zero *work experience* to make any sensible projections/decisions over LCA, AMCA or even Kaveri.
> 
> *DRDO/HAL never failed to deliver. Actually, they did far better job than even Western/european counterparts. It was IAF who misconceptualized/misprojected their expectations because of their lack of experience.*


 

R & D does work on deadlines. We are not building a spaceship to Neptune. No country has infinite resources and unlimited time. ISRO also had the same problems as DRDO, ADA. The only differnce being ISRO is associated with success 9 on 10 times.

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## luckyyy

GTRE achived what was it asked for , 75-80 kn...
LRDE achived what it was asked for( nobody knows the AESA stuff till 2000 , how can DRDO could plan it in 1985.....
GTRE had no experience with engine developments and still they developed what they were asked for ..
f404 was the only proven at that time and today kaveri is good as f404 , this f414 stuff cames much later and maked the IAF mouth watering to make their specifications changed...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> GTRE achived what was it asked for , 75-80 kn...
> LRDE achived what it was asked for( nobody knows the AESA stuff till 2000 , how can DRDO could plan it in 1985.....
> 
> GTRE had no experience with engine developments and still they developed what they were asked for ..
> 
> f404 was the only proven at that time and today kaveri is good as f404 , this f414 stuff cames much later and maked the IAF mouth watering to make their specifications changed...


 
Wanted to add.. 

GTRE did achieved only 78KN with 150kg overweight... so they where not able to achieve the target of 85KN -150kg... yes they did this in first try... it was a very good accomplishment

LRDE didnt develope all... they didnt complete the heart which is running on 2032...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> No, we build LCH exactly because we did it the right way with Dhruv! Dhruv might be an indigenous project, but heavily dependent on foreing input (mainly German and French) and we used it as a base to learn and get experience, which now makes us able to redesign Dhruv to LCH, or develop LUH alone.
> 
> If we had gone the same succesful way with LCA, we would have gone for co-developments as I mentioned earlier, or even teamed up with a foreign nation that has more experience (Sweden for example), had it operational by now like Dhruv and would be able to redesign LCA alone (NLCA required help from EADS and they searched for US help as well).



valid... we did it Dhruv with JV.. and who said we didnt do with LCA?? we tried for FBW with dassault who was adamant to give us analog we rejected it .... because we dont want that.. we went with support from BAe and LM ... BAe gave us the facts but no know-how and LM initially helped us but ditched us due to US pressure...

And in 1990's who where ready to do JV or help us?? we are not super power or we are not that close to NATO.... the situation now is India has money so people are coming here to help us



> First of all, AMCA is aimed to be ready by 2022/25 and FGFA will already be in production by then. Secondly the only fighters that could be replaced in that time by AMCA are Jaguars, which are purly ground attack fighters, meant for deep penetration strikes. AURA UCAV can be available at least at that time as well and would be the way better replacement for Jags then AMCA.
> There is nor operational necessity for AMCA, when you have a 5th gen air superioirty fighter, as well a 5th gen UCAV for strikes, on top of huge numbers of 4.5 gen LCA, MMRCA, MKI. We could simply increase FGFA and AURA numbers and by 2035/40 we need an even more capable fighter than AMCA to replace MKIs. AMCA by then will be as late as LCA is today!


 
First of ALL AURA will take 2030 to fly i bet.. even US NGTA will come in service only in 2025 and you expecing AURA to come in 2030 is totaly over confidence.. AURA will be in service in 2040.

so is FGFA is alone enough?.... and total induction will complete by 2025... and they are not going to replace anything but will push MKI and MRCA in the same role ... so when AMCA comes in 2025... Mig -29 and Mirages will retire.. and MMRCA and MKI will be there.. so AMCA is a nice stealth aircraft which can replace Mig-29 and Mirages... and even the MKI inducted in 2005 on wards will retire by 2035 where AMCA can be used... 

and As per knowledge UCAV cant replace the role performed by humans.. they cant do effective defending ... they can be used in aggressive place like the Drones used today...

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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> LRDE didnt develope all... they didnt complete the heart which is running on 2032...


 
first it was initially planned by IAF to have as Pulse Doppler Radar on LCA , then phased-array electronic scanning radar and now active array electronic scanning radar ...
but LRDE is lessioning...good , isn't it !!
they did using the isreali micochip 2032 , but i might not be a achivment in the views of few for desine a entire system around that chip..

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## MumbaiIndians

ramu said:


> R & D does work on *deadlines*. We are not building a spaceship to Neptune. No country has infinite resources and unlimited time. ISRO also had the same problems as DRDO, ADA. The only differnce being ISRO is associated with success 9 on 10 times.


 
Wrong. There are no deadlines in R&D. There are goals and estimated deadlines. R&D is always expected to slip estimated deadlines. 

F-35 IOC has been further delayed into 2018. That's why USAF keeps design engineers with 2-3 decades of work experience, in its management team to keep/project their future roadmaps in line with the technology profile available in industry. They don't miscalculate and then whine like IAF does.

*IAF management is not technically fit for laying out timelines on aircraft R&D projects or for that matter, even to talk about it.* They should learn better management practices from USAF and hire some ex-DRDO people in their top team, to keep their toes on earth. Or, better take up aeronautics course as passtime rather than roaming around in weapon shows and making silly comments about LCA on which they have no clue. 

Secondly, *ISRO is* working on *Civilian* space technologies. They easily get foreign components and use them. *This is not to say they are fools, but their goals are different and far more easier than DRDO.* As an small example, check when ISRO made its first flight mission computer and who provided them help. Its DR...

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## MumbaiIndians

Sancho Aka Biggest troll of LCA thread,

- which country was offering JV to India when India began its first 4th Gen. aircraft R&D(LCA) initiative? (provide links for claims)
- do you think Russia will allow India to join 5th Generation FGFA as JV partner, if we didn't have 4th generation design experience that LCA gave us? If yes, why wouldn't DRDO reduce to a minority partner in that situation, since it won't even have a design experience?

Answer these two questions. This is homework for you today.


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## Black Widow

MumbaiIndians said:


> Sancho Aka Biggest troll of LCA thread,
> 
> - which country was offering JV to India when India began its first 4th Gen. aircraft R&D(LCA) initiative? (provide links for claims)
> - do you think Russia will allow India to join 5th Generation FGFA as JV partner, if we didn't have 4th generation design experience that LCA gave us? If yes, why wouldn't DRDO reduce to a minority partner in that situation, since it won't even have a design experience?
> 
> Answer these two questions. This is homework for you today.


 

I would like to add one more thing... if members here are in impression that our guys are working on PAK-FA, they are in illusion... Indian participation in designing airframe is negligible... This deal is like brahmos, but the Work is not like Brahmos...

I doubt if indian can get good hands-on on design part, Therefor to excel the ability of Craft design, AMCA is needed...

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## kingdurgaking

@Mumbai indian

Chill off dude... why getting irritated?? Sancho is not a troll... just debate normally... there is no need to get personal... neither you have seen Sancho nor you both are going to live together for years.. why take personal..

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> first it was initially planned by IAF to have as Pulse Doppler Radar on LCA , then phased-array electronic scanning radar and now active array electronic scanning radar ...
> but LRDE is lessioning...good , isn't it !!
> they did using the isreali micochip 2032 , but i might not be a achivment in the views of few for desine a entire system around that chip..



Still LRDE has developed only pulse doppler Radar.. not even PESA... they are jumping to AESA without doing PESA.... This radar was conceptualized long back...


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## MumbaiIndians

kingdurgaking said:


> Still LRDE has developed only pulse doppler Radar.. not even PESA... *they are jumping to AESA without doing PESA*.... *This radar was conceptualized long back*...


 
Firstly, DRDO has already made AESA and qualified it for flights(AEWACS project). Its primary Radar is AESA and secondary is PESA.

Second, conceptualization and funding are two different things. Conceptualization might be in 1980 but real work starts when funding is approved(1989-LCA).

Work on 'AESA for LCA' project began in August' 2009 and first phase estimate is 2013. This is faster than even western standards.


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## MumbaiIndians

kingdurgaking said:


> @Mumbai indian
> 
> Chill off dude... why getting irritated?? Sancho is not a troll... just debate normally... there is no need to get personal... neither you have seen Sancho nor you both are going to live together for years.. why take personal..


 
Does Sancho need your help? Let him defend his arguments. So far, he is running from my questions.


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## soaringphnx

MumbaiIndians said:


> do you think Russia will allow India to join 5th Generation FGFA as JV partner, if we didn't have 4th generation design experience that LCA gave us? If yes, why wouldn't DRDO reduce to a minority partner in that situation, since it won't even have a design experience?


 
So you think russia included india in the pakfa project because of our experience designing aircraft?  Russia couldn't fund the entire program by themselves. So they were looking for a partner who could share the development costs.


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## kingdurgaking

MumbaiIndians said:


> Firstly, DRDO has already made PESA and qualified it for flights(AEWACS project).
> 
> Second, conceptualization and funding are two different things. Conceptualization might be in 1980 but real work starts when funding is approved(1989-LCA).
> 
> Work on 'AESA for LCA' project began in August' 2009 and first phase estimate is 2013. This is faster than even western standards.


 
We are talking about PESA on LCA.. i dont think we have miniaturized PESA... do we have so? can you give me a link...

You are right conceptualization and starting are two different work... when you conceptualize we have whole lot of work to see.. do we have the infra? do we have the man power and skill? and work will start after that provided funding is done .....

so LRDE has been working from 1990's on the radar and in 2005 they where struggling and they have completed only two modules.. so when Israel came work has taken in pace... so we lack the knowledge clearly....

yes in 1990 we didnt have much help.. but we should have brought equipment and latter develope our own to avoid LCA into so much of speculations...


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## soaringphnx

kingdurgaking said:


> First of ALL AURA will take 2030 to fly i bet.. even US NGTA will come in service only in 2025 and you expecing AURA to come in 2030 is totaly over confidence.. AURA will be in service in 2040.
> 
> As per knowledge UCAV cant replace the role performed by humans.. they cant do effective defending ... they can be used in aggressive place like the Drones used today...


 
As far as i know ucavs have a lower development cost and unit cost than conventional fighters. They take much less time to develop too. That is why many countries are now developing uavs. So i think the aura is a much better option than the amca. The amca project is just too late. By the time it will be fully developed, it will already be obsolete.

And i think a ucav/uav will be as effective as a conventional fighter. Just because the pilot is on the ground doesn't mean it won't be effective in a particular role. In fact they are imo safer as they don't put the pilot in danger.


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## soaringphnx

@mumbaiindian

you really need to look up the meaning of the word troll in the dictionary. It does not mean someone who does not agree with your views.


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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> @mumbaiindian
> 
> you really need to look up the meaning of the word troll in the dictionary. It does not mean someone who does not agree with your views.


 
Constantly propogating false claims as facts, is trolling. That's what sancho is doing in this thread.

Now stop adding flames and focus on topic.


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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> And *i think a ucav/uav will be as effective as a conventional fighter.* Just because the pilot is on the ground doesn't mean it won't be effective in a particular role. In fact they are imo safer as they don't put the pilot in danger.


 
Disagree.

Even developed world doesn't believe in that. USAF has plans to induct F-22 planes even beyond 2020 and PLAF is yet to begin user trials of J-20. 

What you just said, is a tall claim found only in science magazines. Seriously, are we discussing science fiction from magazines here?


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## soaringphnx

MumbaiIndians said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Even developed world doesn't believe in that. USAF has plans to induct F-22 planes even beyond 2020 and PLAF is yet to begin user trials of J-20.
> 
> What you just said, is a tall claim found only in science magazines. Seriously, are we discussing science fiction from magazines here?


 
For your information, the usaf won't be inducting any more f-22s. Of course the f-22s already in service will continue to be in service well beyond 2020. Perhaps you meant the f-35? And when did i say that no countries are developing and inducting 5th generation fighters? Even india is planning to induct the pakfa!

And why won't uavs be as effective as conventional aircraft? Because the pilot is on the ground and not inside the actual aircraft? If uavs are so ineffective, then why are the US, russians, israelis, french and others developing uavs?


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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> So you think russia included india in the pakfa project because of our experience designing aircraft?  Russia couldn't fund the entire program by themselves. So *they were looking for a partner who could share the development costs*.


 
Do you really want India to reduce itself to just funding part of FGFA and be a sleeping partner?  

Also, its obvious that they would prefer India being just a funding partner and not participate as equal JV partner. Its beneficial for them if India agrees to fund but not demand any bigger share of work in FGFA. That would have kept whole program within campuses of Russian design laboratories.


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## kingdurgaking

soaringphnx said:


> As far as i know ucavs have a lower development cost and unit cost than conventional fighters. They take much less time to develop too. That is why many countries are now developing uavs. So i think the aura is a much better option than the amca. The amca project is just too late. By the time it will be fully developed, it will already be obsolete.
> 
> And i think a ucav/uav will be as effective as a conventional fighter. Just because the pilot is on the ground doesn't mean it won't be effective in a particular role. In fact they are imo safer as they don't put the pilot in danger.


 
No dear... UCAVS are not that simple... you need AI to track the targets... and engage.. things UCAV that reduces are human support system.. but software will become more and more complex.. you need to escape the incoming missile all those softwares are going to be more tedious.. as per threat perception..

UCAVS will not be that good initially as you for see.... Drones nowerdays are going only if there is no enemy fighters.. UCAVS if they are jammed then you will loose them.. so manned fighter will be there.. even boeing UCAV will have manned option... peace time UCAV are more good .. in war it will be different.. you will force human operation...

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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> And when did i say that no countries are developing and inducting 5th generation fighters? Even india is planning to induct the *pakfa*!


 
PAK-FA is Russian project, meant for Russian airforce(RuAF). India has no plans to buy it.


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## soaringphnx

MumbaiIndians said:


> PAK-FA is Russian project, meant for Russian airforce(RuAF). India has no plans to buy it.


 
Actually india plans to buy 50 single seat russian version (pakfa) and 200 twin seat (fgfa) fighters.


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## MumbaiIndians

soaringphnx said:


> Actually india plans to buy 50 single seat russian version (pakfa) and 200 twin seat (fgfa) fighters.


 
That's not signed yet. IAF is still confused about it, like a baby in candyshop, not sure which color to pick.


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## kish

soaringphnx said:


> And i think a ucav/uav will be as effective as a conventional fighter. Just because the pilot is on the ground doesn't mean it won't be effective in a particular role. In fact they are imo safer as they don't put the pilot in danger.


 
The pilot on the ground get incoming data some time later (may be 1 sec) and again send data it may again take another 1 sec .. delay of 1-2 sec is very crucial in actual war case ...

conventional fighter pilot's response does not have this transmission delay so as far as now conventional are imp too (not saying that ucav are not imp)

ucav will be more potent for fighting when no pilot will needed even on ground ... till then conventional fighter will have equal importance

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> @ sancho:
> 
> You are a respected member of this forum (at least among Indian). your posts are most of the time useful and informative. Its not crime to accept others view during discussion if you feel its valid, even though its contradicting ur view...
> 
> Adamant behavior doesn't pay...


 
Not sure to which views you are refering to, kingdurgaking for example is arguing, instead of simply reposting the same points again and again and I take his thought seriously, but we still can disagree on certain points. It's not about convincing the other, but about sharing informations, views, so everybody can make up his, or her own mind. 
I do think LCA was a very good project for India, but I also point out the parts that failed, instead of blindly celebrating every minor achievement. I do think that it adds immensely to our indigenous industrial capabilities, but we would have achieved even more by now, if we planed it more realistically and used our advantages with foreign options. I am for more indigenous developments, but against limiting our forces with them only for pride reasons (NLCA, AMCA) and I have valid reasons as well I showed.




kingdurgaking said:


> valid... we did it Dhruv with JV.. and who said we didnt do with LCA??



I didn't either, but those were mainly for minor parts of the development, while we wanted to do the main parts alone. A good example from Dhruv was the engine development, where the first were proven foreign versions, while the Shakti engine were a co-development (although also with much French input).
If that was a successful way for Dhruv, why didn't we went the same way for LCA? 




kingdurgaking said:


> And in 1990's who where ready to do JV or help us?? we are not super power or we are not that close to NATO.... the situation now is India has money so people are coming here to help us



Russians, French, as I said single engine RD33 and M53 engines were logical options in that time.




kingdurgaking said:


> First of ALL AURA will take 2030 to fly i bet.. even US NGTA will come in service only in 2025 and you expecing AURA to come in 2030 is totaly over confidence..



Look at it this way, what is more difficult to design, the airframe of a stealthy fighter, or a stealthy UCAV? 
Does AURA need a very capable engine and features like SC, or TVC?
Does it need NG cockpit and radar developments?

So when we start the developments of both pretty much at the same time, what is more difficult to develop for our industry, AMCA, or AURA?

All important developments that can lead to AURA are already started by our own UAV developments, FGFA, as well as co-developments with Israeli, or European companies. There is already a base and even plans for unmanned Dhruv and possibly LCAs. Why is AURA ready for production in 2025, which is still 14 years away, less realistic than AMCA then? 




kingdurgaking said:


> so is FGFA is alone enough?.... and total induction will complete by 2025...



Not possible, buddy! Even if we take 2017 as the start for production, we plan 250 fighters at least. We needed 9 years to induct around 130 MKIs, of which only 80 were produced in India. Around 100 MMRCAs are expected to be in production in India for 10 years as well, so why should 250 FGFA be fully inducted in just 8 years?

Realistically, the early MKIs might be even replaced by the late FGFAs and that's why I said, by that time (2030), 5th gen fighters won't be enough anymore and we need even more capable than AMCA. Personally I think that by that time UCAVs will be the main fighter aircraft anyway, but that's a different matter.
And who said FGFA is alone? 270 MKIs, at least 126 MMRCAs and 140 LCAs = roughly 600 x 4.5/5 gen multi role fighters by 2025, nearly 200 more than we have now, while UCAVs and hunter killer can take over the strike roles of dedicated ground attack fightes in addition.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> No dear... UCAVS are not that simple... you need AI to track the targets... and engage.. things UCAV that reduces are human support system.. but *software will become more and more complex*.. you need to escape the incoming missile all those softwares are going to be more tedious.. as per threat perception..


 
Exactly, while the hardware development is way easier, esepcially if your industry has limited capabilities in developing such hardware. For the software we will need Israeli, or European partners for sure.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Exactly, while the hardware development is way easier, esepcially if your industry has limited capabilities in developing such hardware. For the software we will need Israeli, or European partners for sure.


 
 ... in future secret will lie in software .... not in hardware... and secondly having less hardware makes life easy for testing with simulations and less maintenance.. for example take SPECTRA it employs a software based technology ... which has enabled it to be very effective... 

Further using hardware also need software to do calculations... while complex algorithm if developed in software is always better than give hardware based solution...


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not sure to which views you are refering to, kingdurgaking for example is arguing, *instead of simply reposting the same points again and again *and I take his thought seriously, but we still can disagree on certain points. It's not about convincing the other, but about sharing informations, views, so everybody can make up his, or her own mind.


i think it was you only simply reposting the same points again and again ..


> I do think LCA was a very good project for India, but I also point out the parts that failed, instead of blindly celebrating every minor achievement.


no body planned a failure ....it you only who think that LCA is just a minor achivment , and if a member taking it as a troll , he has his views , might be not 100% correct but to a extent , yes...

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I didn't either, but those were mainly for minor parts of the development, while we wanted to do the main parts alone. A good example from Dhruv was the engine development, where the first were proven foreign versions, while the Shakti engine were a co-development (although also with much French input).
> If that was a successful way for Dhruv, why didn't we went the same way for LCA?



True but .. you didnt understand even Shakti engine struggled during sanction... and we have to pay the royalty for every engine back to France.. because France didnt part the technology of some critical components... 



> Russians, French, as I said single engine RD33 and M53 engines were logical options in that time.


Are you sure they are ready to part the technology?? even today SNECMA is crying to share the IP of its core to GTRE for eco core.. and no way Russia gives the technology... Russia never sold current technology to any one.. we cant dream of doing JV Turbo fan in 1990 as it is a very hot technology... even today for MKI engine we get raw materials from Russia directly.. we dont know what the composisition of those raw material to break the code... 

For example take Brahmos.. Russia contributes the propulsion and India guidance and software.. you think Russia gave the Propulsion technology to India.. no it didnt.. even FGFA they are not going to part some complex technologies like AESA and avionics.. they will help India in Stealth characteristics of the body.. and DRDO will develop our own version with CFC..even i doubt they gave some valid input for Arihant... 



> Look at it this way, what is more difficult to design, the airframe of a stealthy fighter, or a stealthy UCAV?
> Does AURA need a very capable engine and features like SC, or TVC?
> Does it need NG cockpit and radar developments?



Not needed... you are just taking of cockpit and human substem which are not needed... but it needs sufficient technology to interact and think on its own incase a missile approaches and target the enemy with precession and decision support system or human interaction system... it is more complex than developing a NG cockpit.. because cockpit just gives data and human reacts... but UCAV has to react on its own.. for UCAV super cruise and TVC is a bless advantage.. if it is there.. Super cruise enables to go longer distance with less fuel is absolute need.... yes we dont need the power of engine of what is needed for manned craft.. even powerful engine will enable to carry more load and more fuel.... we are not talking like Drones in the form of UCAV???... Drones cant defend on its own.. and the jamming of drone is probable... UCAV even Jammed will have a inbuilt brain to execute tasks..



> So when we start the developments of both pretty much at the same time, what is more difficult to develop for our industry, AMCA, or AURA?
> 
> All important developments that can lead to AURA are already started by our own UAV developments, FGFA, as well as co-developments with Israeli, or European companies. There is already a base and even plans for unmanned Dhruv and possibly LCAs. Why is AURA ready for production in 2025, which is still 14 years away, less realistic than AMCA then?



First of all UCAV will be employed more in peace time and they cant replace manner fighters because UCAV has to have series of upgrade based on threat perception.. and threat perception is more of dynamic... UCAV can be used more of peace time or for proxy... in case of emergency it will be humans who will be sent first followed by UCAV to do more damange... and UCAV technologies are not matured enough to defend a country like India...

so AMCA is very much a needed fighter.. even US NTGA has called for manned option in case of emergency where Boeing had given the option... 



> Not possible, buddy! Even if we take 2017 as the start for production, we plan 250 fighters at least. We needed 9 years to induct around 130 MKIs, of which only 80 were produced in India. Around 100 MMRCAs are expected to be in production in India for 10 years as well, so why should 250 FGFA be fully inducted in just 8 years?


MKI has a strict time line to finish the current order by 2015 and all the future order by 2017... MMRCA will exist till 2060 ... but all those lost in peace or war will not be replaced but will be opted by AMCA.. it is better to go for a stealth developed by India than to buy MMRCA....



> Realistically, the early MKIs might be even replaced by the late FGFAs and that's why I said, by that time (2030), 5th gen fighters won't be enough anymore and we need even more capable than AMCA. Personally I think that by that time UCAVs will be the main fighter aircraft anyway, but that's a different matter.
> And who said FGFA is alone? 270 MKIs, at least 126 MMRCAs and 140 LCAs = roughly 600 x 4.5/5 gen multi role fighters by 2025, nearly 200 more than we have now, while UCAVs and hunter killer can take over the strike roles of dedicated ground attack fightes in addition.



FGFA will not replace MKI.. all of FGFA and MKI is need to have squad of 48... and it will be a bad decision to replace whole of Manned with UCAV... At any point there will be manned fighters to prevent disaster..... and those manned fighters will come in the form of AMCA...

and we have to be realistic to think that UCAV will come in 2030... US NGTA will come in 2025 only as F-35 is further postponed to 2018.. and 2030 is the realistic time for US itself to have 10 squad of UCAV.... for India it is going to be 2040 to have UCAV....

and i again i repeat it will be dangerous to send UCAV in strike and deep attack roles...


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## MumbaiIndians

kingdurgaking said:


> True but .. you didnt understand even Shakti engine struggled during sanction... and we have to pay the royalty for every engine back to France.. because France didnt part the technology of some critical components...


 
Good point.

Even the Snecma-GTRE joint venture has no technology transfer. French have refused to transfer cryogenic engine technology.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> True but .. you didnt understand even Shakti engine struggled during sanction... and we have to pay the royalty for every engine back to France.. because France didnt part the technology of some critical components...



I do and I said before that sanctions had their parts in the delays too, but wasn't the major problem. We struggeled with Kaveri and then had to find a plan B in the short term, instead of planing with a safe and proven engine from the start, to counter any problems that could ocur during Kaveri developments. 
And in regard of money, we didn't get the GE engines for free right? And by the fact that by that time we were desperate, we didn't have much space to bargain as well. So that is no point for me, I even say it's only money! 
*I would rather have spend some more money back then and see Tejas flying in sqads now, instead of paying afterwards and just hoping to see Tejas to be ready anytime soon! *




kingdurgaking said:


> Are you sure they are ready to part the technology?? even today SNECMA is crying to share the IP of its core to GTRE for eco core.. and no way Russia gives the technology... Russia never sold current technology to any one.. we cant dream of doing JV Turbo fan in 1990 as it is a very hot technology...



Because we ask for the techs that they even plan for a future upgrades only, when we look at all the JV with ToT we have with France, it should be obvious that they are a prefered partner, because of ToT isn't it? 
Also as I said, we didn't had to go for a co-development, it just was one option. A simple licence production of stop gap engine would have been enough as well, to get Tejas ready for IOC and licence production till Kaveri is ready. Basically the same that we do now with GE 404, that might be replaced by Kaveri during MLU, but the advantage would have been several years less delays!




kingdurgaking said:


> For example take Brahmos.. Russia contributes the propulsion and India guidance and software.. you think Russia gave the Propulsion technology to India.. no it didnt.. even FGFA they are not going to part some complex technologies like AESA and avionics.. they will help India in Stealth characteristics of the body.. and DRDO will develop our own version with CFC..even i doubt they gave some valid input for Arihant...



And that is surprising? No country in the world gives out their top techs, or secrets for free, that's why I also say we need indigenous developments. But we will never catch up to western countries, Russia, or China, when we try to do it alone and risk these kinds of delays.
Brahmos for example, if we had tried to develop such a missile alone, how many years would have taken us and wouldn't the other countries increase the gap in the meantime? MKI was the start, where we could at least customize to our requirements and include indigenous parts. FGFA will be even a step ahead, because we are included in the redesign of our version and can give way more input in terms of materials, or cockpit design for example. We learn about NG techs, can bring indigenous inputs in it and (hopefully) will have it in service at a very early stage. Again, if we didn't go for FGFA, when would be able to field a 5th gen fighter alone and wouldn't China have a clear advantage with J20 then?

Btw, Arihant imo would never be possible without Russian and French ToT through Scorpene deal, but it's such a top secret project, that we will never hear more about the deals behind it.




kingdurgaking said:


> Not needed... you are just taking of cockpit and human substem which are not needed... but it needs sufficient technology to interact and think on its own incase a missile approaches



I agree that you need more advanced systems, or software as we said earlier, but I don't think that this example is correct. Even today latest EWS systems are detecting, localising and identifying threats alone, they even offer the pilot possible solutions to counter it. Chaf and flares will be even used automatically and all these infos will be displayed at the virtual cockpit of the drone pilot as well. 




kingdurgaking said:


> UCAV super cruise and TVC is a bless advantage.. if it is there.. Super cruise enables to go longer distance with less fuel is absolute need...



Not really, because UCAV engine won't have an afterburner anyway, just like TVC is not needed, because maneuverability is not a key requirement like at fighters. Just look at dedicated strike aircrafts with stealth design like F117, or B2, both not meant for fighting, but for very low RCS and delivery of strike weapons. Regarding payloads, not the thrust alone is important, keep in mind that the weight will less as well (comparable to LCA).




kingdurgaking said:


> so AMCA is very much a needed fighter.. even US NTGA has called for manned option in case of emergency where Boeing had given the option...



That we have FGFA for and as long as AMCA will not be more advanced, lets say a 6th gen fighter, a stealth UCAV for strikes alongside FGFA is more reasonable.
I don't like to compare with other countries, because it mainly depends on their own requirements, when and what they developm. But by the fact you keep mentioning the US, they will induct F35 soon, will add X47 later and the developments of Boeing for a 6th gen replacement of F18SH by 2025 has already started and they have 2 totally different 5th gen fighters, not the same like FGFA and AMCA would be.
If we had the same situation that they have AMCA might make sense, but we don't! We induct 3 different 4.5 gen fighters in the next 4 years, will add a 5th gen fighter and a 5th gen UCAV, there is simply no need to add a fighter that offers operational advantage for our forces.




kingdurgaking said:


> *but all those lost* in peace or war will not be replaced but will be opted by AMCA.. it is better to go for a stealth developed by India than to buy MMRCA...



 So for such a specific reasons you want to add a new type and pay all the development costs? Why not simply add another FGFA? 




kingdurgaking said:


> it will be a bad decision to replace whole of Manned with UCAV...



I never said that, but to replace dedicated ground attack fighters with UCAVs which are clearly better in these roles does makes sense.

Even in this decade you will see that IAF will divert CAS and possibly SEAD attacks to hunter killer drones comparable to Predators, or Reapers accompanied by some manned fighters with dedicated EW capabilities. Even today in Afghanistan and Libya, drone attacks in these roles are more useful than fighter attacks, because they have more range and endurance than manned fighters. That's why the trend is also to lighter strike weapons like Brimstone, JAGM, AASM 125/250, Paveway IV, or SDB, while we striked with 500Kg LGBs in Kargil war.


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## MumbaiIndians

sancho said:


> I would rather have spend some more money back then and see Tejas flying in sqads now, instead of paying afterwards and just hoping to see Tejas to be ready anytime soon!



Sounds quite similar to,
"I would rather spend some more money now and see AMCA flying in sqads soon, instead of paying afterwards and just hoping to see AMCA to be ready anytime in future". 

Guess what, you still have chance to correct your past mistake. Or it might be too late again.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I do and I said before that sanctions had their parts in the delays too, but wasn't the major problem. We struggeled with Kaveri and then had to find a plan B in the short term, instead of planing with a safe and proven engine from the start, to counter any problems that could ocur during Kaveri developments.
> And in regard of money, we didn't get the GE engines for free right? And by the fact that by that time we were desperate, we didn't have much space to bargain as well. So that is no point for me, I even say it's only money!
> *I would rather have spend some more money back then and see Tejas flying in sqads now, instead of paying afterwards and just hoping to see Tejas to be ready anytime soon! *
> 
> Because we ask for the techs that they even plan for a future upgrades only, when we look at all the JV with ToT we have with France, it should be obvious that they are a prefered partner, because of ToT isn't it?
> Also as I said, we didn't had to go for a co-development, it just was one option. A simple licence production of stop gap engine would have been enough as well, to get Tejas ready for IOC and licence production till Kaveri is ready. Basically the same that we do now with GE 404, that might be replaced by Kaveri during MLU, but the advantage would have been several years less delays!


If we go on with JV then we wouldnt have key developments like we have with LCA and we would never have any self development at all For example expertise in the field of CFC etc are good deal.. we are going on with these advance composite on FGFA where as russia is still struck with titanium..

secondly some it is better to have a plan B where we spend money for the product than we go for JV.. because any way in JV we dont have access to the technology of the other party.. still what is the use.. we are spending for R&D with out the know how of the other side... for country like India others will dictate that we have develop in JV citing that we will not be able to develop...

JV is good only for key things like Brahmos ... where the customer is not having any time but wanted a special product..... 

Even for kaveri eco.. we wont know the core technology... so what is the use?? what did we achieve...we already did major in Kaveri and we are struggling in the core only.... where as France will develop the core and will use the core for future engines too... To say France will be the major benefiter that India... Even for LUH for a single engine power we are struggling with France as we dont have the required knowhow in Shakthi - engine... They are dictating terms... we cannot emerge in global market..

Yes accepted now Kaveri engine has come to the stage of Brahmos where DRDO has got no time... But still money has to invested for a indigenous engine.. if we dont do this then India will never know in future how to develope them.. and for life long we have to abide to france price escalation.. and pay them if we need to do some changes... But France can coolly use the Eco - core for its M-XX projects .... 




sancho said:


> And that is surprising? No country in the world gives out their top techs, or secrets for free, that's why I also say we need indigenous developments. But we will never catch up to western countries, Russia, or China, when we try to do it alone and risk these kinds of delays.
> Brahmos for example, if we had tried to develop such a missile alone, how many years would have taken us and wouldn't the other countries increase the gap in the meantime? MKI was the start, where we could at least customize to our requirements and include indigenous parts. FGFA will be even a step ahead, because we are included in the redesign of our version and can give way more input in terms of materials, or cockpit design for example. We learn about NG techs, can bring indigenous inputs in it and (hopefully) will have it in service at a very early stage. Again, if we didn't go for FGFA, when would be able to field a 5th gen fighter alone and wouldn't China have a clear advantage with J20 then?
> 
> Btw, Arihant imo would never be possible without Russian and French ToT through Scorpene deal, but it's such a top secret project, that we will never hear more about the deals behind it.



Why you have the assumption that we will never catch up??.. Those countries were independent for centuries and they have been starting from zeroth generation.. where as we have been able to catch them in several areas.. we have used CFC and developing more advanced composites for AMCA... we have been able to surpass several in this field.. we have a very robust FBW... we have done good indigenous work in several fields.. despite repeated sanctions slashed our face.. 

Even for Brahmos we still didnt have key propulsion .... Not sure we are going to do anything on propulsion in hypersonic version

Russia in FGFA will not give blue print but will ask us to develop some parts out of CFC and not sure whether we will be given the algorithms for stealth shaping(which is the key one)...i guess we will develop that on our own with some input from Russia.. 

for Arihant Russia did give input.. but that is only at the end where we are struggling a bit to achieve the power.. they where not doing the entire part.. BARC did 95% of the work... if we had gone for JV we would have developed only tubes there.. 



sancho said:


> I agree that you need more advanced systems, or software as we said earlier, but I don't think that this example is correct. Even today latest EWS systems are detecting, localising and identifying threats alone, they even offer the pilot possible solutions to counter it. Chaf and flares will be even used automatically and all these infos will be displayed at the virtual cockpit of the drone pilot as well.
> 
> Not really, because UCAV engine won't have an afterburner anyway, just like TVC is not needed, because maneuverability is not a key requirement like at fighters. Just look at dedicated strike aircrafts with stealth design like F117, or B2, both not meant for fighting, but for very low RCS and delivery of strike weapons. Regarding payloads, not the thrust alone is important, keep in mind that the weight will less as well (comparable to LCA).



yes EW systems deploy chaff and flares.. it is just triggering an activity.. but newer generation missile have Optical tracking system and cant be cheated with chaff and flares... so UCAV will have to develop a escape path in run time to dodge the missile.. and have to execute the path which are more complex.. and future threat perception will be more complex than we can actually think of.. they indeed have to stay away from enemy detection lot of stuff.. we cant image these things... right now all these parameters have been given in cockpit to the pilot and human decides whats next...

Except for after burner ... if it has to take huge payload it should have huge power... in Manned system... human support system comes max 1-2 tonne of weight .. along with cockpit.. so more power is needed along with super cruise .... TVC depends... if it helps in escape path it will have to be incorporated....

UCAV and B-2 cant be interrelated here.. UCAV will be more autonomous... some time it has to deal with enemy fighters during strike role.. it has to have more power in those case... 



sancho said:


> That we have FGFA for and as long as AMCA will not be more advanced, lets say a 6th gen fighter, a stealth UCAV for strikes alongside FGFA is more reasonable.
> I don't like to compare with other countries, because it mainly depends on their own requirements, when and what they developm. But by the fact you keep mentioning the US, they will induct F35 soon, will add X47 later and the developments of Boeing for a 6th gen replacement of F18SH by 2025 has already started and they have 2 totally different 5th gen fighters, not the same like FGFA and AMCA would be.
> If we had the same situation that they have AMCA might make sense, but we don't! We induct 3 different 4.5 gen fighters in the next 4 years, will add a 5th gen fighter and a 5th gen UCAV, there is simply no need to add a fighter that offers operational advantage for our forces.



Boeing inducting in 2025 is a reality for US can be for a special role because they are going to buy F-35.... US has delivery of F-35 for all the forces till 2030...

which means UCAV will be for a special role.. In addition to that F-18 and F-15 will stay till 2020-2025.. and F-22 and F-35 are expected to stay till 2040 atleast 

As for our adversaries.. they are inducting lot of J-10, J-11 and two 5th gen fighters are on the card... so we having the same configuration is no big deal...



sancho said:


> So for such a specific reasons you want to add a new type and pay all the development costs? Why not simply add another FGFA?
> 
> I never said that, but to replace dedicated ground attack fighters with UCAVs which are clearly better in these roles does makes sense.
> 
> Even in this decade you will see that IAF will divert CAS and possibly SEAD attacks to hunter killer drones comparable to Predators, or Reapers accompanied by some manned fighters with dedicated EW capabilities. Even today in Afghanistan and Libya, drone attacks in these roles are more useful than fighter attacks, because they have more range and endurance than manned fighters. That's why the trend is also to lighter strike weapons like Brimstone, JAGM, AASM 125/250, Paveway IV, or SDB, while we striked with 500Kg LGBs in Kargil war.



If we are going to replace all the strike with UCAV it is dangerous and disaster like US did by not putting guns on there aircraft in Vietnam war... we need manned fighters also and that to 60% of manned fighter to 40% UCAV... and that is why we need AMCA...

Programming UCAV is not instant.. threat varies and upgrades has to happen.. In war we dont know what trick enemy will apply and human can take decision instantly and go for a war plan... but UCAV doing that will be too late ... until the threat is programmed tested...


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> If we go on with JV then we wouldnt have key developments like we have with LCA



Like? I thought we were talking about the key parts like radar and engine, where we failed to develop it alone? As I said earlier, I am for indigenous developments, but with a more realistic assessment of our capabilities and better planing to not make similar mistakes again.
LCA project was good and important, but the dependence on indigenous radar and engine developments, without a stop gap engine (plan B), or a foreign partner (plan C) were and still are the problems.




kingdurgaking said:


> and we would never have any self development at all For example expertise in the field of CFC etc are good deal.. we are going on with these advance composite on FGFA where as russia is still struck with titanium..



True, while on the other side we stuck at design, engine, radar developments, which are basics on any fighter development. Without getting it done for a 4th gen fighter, it's nuts to think about it for a 5th gen fighter that requires more advanced systems and features.




kingdurgaking said:


> Even for kaveri eco.. we wont know the core technology... so what is the use?? what did we achieve...we already did major in Kaveri and we are struggling in the core only....



Only in the core? Isn't that the base for any engine development? We had 20 years of developments and as you said yourself in another post, it still didn't met the requirements that was aimed for using it at least on Tejas MK1. So did we really achieved something yet?
The expectations and plans were high (remember those plans of naval version of Kaveri to power IN vessels), but the sad truth is, so far it is not useful for any of our fighters (not for LCA MK1, 2, or later an AMCA). And that's the point! We have to accept that we failed here and find solutions to fix the problems as soon as possible. Sticking with it for longer, just with some hope that we will make it ready someday is not the right way and just causes more delays, while all other countries move even further! 




kingdurgaking said:


> as we dont have the required knowhow in Shakthi - engine... They are dictating terms... we cannot emerge in global market..



Exactly and that is not surprising, because we are not at the same level now and still have a lot to learn, that's why JV, or even better Co-developments are so important. It's not only getting ToT, or ip codes and suddenly we are ready to do the same, but increasing the experience and know how of our indigenous industry and engineers as well. 




kingdurgaking said:


> But still money has to invested for a indigenous engine.. if we dont do this then India will never know in future how to develope them..



Totally agree, that's why it's important to keep the K9 developments going on, but not make us dependent on it, that's what I say. We also must start own engine developments for helicopters and vessels, because these are key parts of any development and if we want to be independent, this is a field where we have to have alternatives. As I said, if we had done it differently, we would be way further in this field now and could do more on our own.


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Like? I thought we were talking about the key parts like radar and engine, where we failed to develop it alone? As I said earlier, I am for indigenous developments, but with a more realistic assessment of our capabilities and better planing to not make similar mistakes again.
> LCA project was good and important, but the dependence on indigenous radar and engine developments, without a stop gap engine (plan B), or a foreign partner (plan C) were and still are the problems.


I guess you have fixed what is key part.. in Aircraft everything is key part.. for example... the Air frame is very key.. you cant have a heavy air frame .. even if you have powerful engine right??.. of course engine is heart.. so is the airframe.. even FBW , MC is also important.. without which LCA wouldnt have flown... remember even though we had engine and Airframe.. it was not flying in 2000 because FBW was not ready and tested..

Airframe, MC, FBW cant be bought from others even if you give money.. but Radar and engine yes.... 



sancho said:


> True, while on the other side we stuck at design, engine, radar developments, which are basics on any fighter development. Without getting it done for a 4th gen fighter, it's nuts to think about it for a 5th gen fighter that requires more advanced systems and features.
> 
> 
> Only in the core? Isn't that the base for any engine development? We had 20 years of developments and as you said yourself in another post, it still didn't met the requirements that was aimed for using it at least on Tejas MK1. So did we really achieved something yet?
> The expectations and plans were high (remember those plans of naval version of Kaveri to power IN vessels), but the sad truth is, so far it is not useful for any of our fighters (not for LCA MK1, 2, or later an AMCA). And that's the point! We have to accept that we failed here and find solutions to fix the problems as soon as possible. Sticking with it for longer, just with some hope that we will make it ready someday is not the right way and just causes more delays, while all other countries move even further!



You have forgot what Dr APJ has told... dream to achieve the goal.. we have dreamed about a small aircraft.. even smaller than Mig 21... 

even Japan which doesnt have a decent engine and Radar is going for 5 th gen fighter ...

while you are comparing SNECMA , Pratt witney .. who are developing engine from turo prop.. to turbo jet to turbo fan... had a century experience ...while GTRE had 20 yrs had a break through of 81KN engine.. SNECMA could develope M88 of 75KN for past 15 yrs.. while the core is advanced (because of experience) ... 

Kaveri at present lack good core.. Kabini is good .. but needs advance metallurgy which we dont have.. if we go to JV we will still lack the core .. means we spend money but we are at the same level where we are today... 

So what is your point?... 20 yrs is good enough to set up industry? do metallurgy and develop a engine of 100KN thrust??.. do you think America will be able to do this??...

Sticking and further research will surely help Kaveri..



sancho said:


> Exactly and that is not surprising, because we are not at the same level now and still have a lot to learn, that's why JV, or even better Co-developments are so important. It's not only getting ToT, or ip codes and suddenly we are ready to do the same, but increasing the experience and know how of our indigenous industry and engineers as well.
> 
> Totally agree, that's why it's important to keep the K9 developments going on, but not make us dependent on it, that's what I say. We also must start own engine developments for helicopters and vessels, because these are key parts of any development and if we want to be independent, this is a field where we have to have alternatives. As I said, if we had done it differently, we would be way further in this field now and could do more on our own.



So we are not at the same level... so dont you want us to rise?? if today we are feeling lazy to invest further and do JV to save money.. tomorrow we will only feel sorry... A simple example... today you earn Rs 20K and you bought a home of Rs 25L ... the money you will repay is 15K .. you will feel frighten and you wont invest.. tomorrow you earn 40K and if you see what is the home price it would be 50L ... you have to repay 30K... so the more and more you wait the gap will be same.. but if you struggle bit and if you had got home at Rs 25L .. when you have earned 40K.. you have to still pay 15K ... see you struggle intially but you got a home and the home price would have doubled.. 

If JV is a stop gap.. that is fine.. but in JV we have to develop the core.. not the existing thing.. we dont want others to dictate.. we have to develop where we are lacking in JV... there will be some partners who help us here.. even in Brahmos we developed the guidance which is critical.. and in hypersonic i guess we are developing the propulsion... this is a successful JV...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> even Japan which doesnt have a decent engine and Radar is going for 5 th gen fighter ...



 And that's why they are working together with US companies and not completely developing these things alone. 




kingdurgaking said:


> SNECMA could develope M88 of 75KN for past 15 yrs..



Because the Rafale didn't need more thrust, they developed the 90kN version 10 years ago and the M53 in Mirage 2000 offers even 95kN, so thrust alone doesn't tell you anything here. The point is, did they achieved their development goals? Yes they did, but we haven't and that's why Kaveri is still not useful for LCA.




kingdurgaking said:


> Kaveri at present lack good core.. Kabini is good .. but needs advance metallurgy which we dont have.. if we go to JV we will still lack the core .. means we spend money but we are at the same level where we are today...So we are not at the same level... so dont you want us to rise??



No, we can learn what went wrong in our development and why we couldn't fix the problem alone. That's what a JV will bring as well, if we could do it alone, GTRE would not prefer this JV themself right?
The rise in future is only possible, when we can move on with Kaveri and that is only possible with help today, if we like it or not.




kingdurgaking said:


> If JV is a stop gap.. that is fine.. but in JV we have to develop the core.. not the existing thing.. we dont want others to dictate.. we have to develop where we are lacking in JV...



Yes, when you do it from the start, but now we desperatly need help and are not in a situation to demand things. That's why I said, we should have done it from the start and only when our own developments failled.
In that time we have a way better base to negotiate with them, today we have only MMRCA to presure them.


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## MumbaiIndians

Sancho aka Biggest troll of LCA thread, is trying his best to portray Kaveri project as failure. 

Now after successful flight tests of Kaveri, his desperation has increased.


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## Lord Of Gondor

@MumbaiIndian-Confront him with facts as to why Kaveri is not a failure WRT the Tejas even as Tejas flies with the GE-F404 IN20 series Engines!Do not brand anyone as a troll without understanding their opinion.Especially if it's someone of the caliber of Sancho.
BTW-Sancho is more knowledgeable than most defence analysts on the forum and needs no branding by you.Sorry if seems harsh.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## kish

@mumbaiindian . . . Please give ur views with facts and prove him wrong . . . U may disagree with him . . This is really wrong way to address someone like sancho . . .


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## ramu

> Because the Rafale didn't need more thrust, they developed the 90kN version 10 years ago and the M53 in Mirage 2000 offers even 95kN, so thrust alone doesn't tell you anything here. The point is, did they achieved their development goals? Yes they did, but we haven't and that's why Kaveri is still not useful for LCA.



Have you heard the term called "changing goal post" ?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> And that's why they are working together with US companies and not completely developing these things alone.


Still they are dreaming of developing a 5th generation fighter right?... on top of this Japan have a rule than they shoudlnt invest on higher military offensive systems... so i guess it is logical for us also to think about it...


sancho said:


> Because the Rafale didn't need more thrust, they developed the 90kN version 10 years ago and the M53 in Mirage 2000 offers even 95kN, so thrust alone doesn't tell you anything here. The point is, did they achieved their development goals? Yes they did, but we haven't and that's why Kaveri is still not useful for LCA.


 Not so... 95KN M53 is not in the same level as M-88... they are more thirsty and are a generation behind Kaveri... the core is also not advanced... Kaveri is not useful... it is wrong to say so.. if the orginal requirement is kept... i think Kaveri is more than useful...If u see 404 is not much different from kaveri.. and even IAF is not happy with 404...



sancho said:


> No, we can learn what went wrong in our development and why we couldn't fix the problem alone. That's what a JV will bring as well, if we could do it alone, GTRE would not prefer this JV themself right?
> The rise in future is only possible, when we can move on with Kaveri and that is only possible with help today, if we like it or not.
> 
> Yes, when you do it from the start, but now we desperatly need help and are not in a situation to demand things. That's why I said, we should have done it from the start and only when our own developments failled.
> In that time we have a way better base to negotiate with them, today we have only MMRCA to presure them.



True GTRE will learn the mistake... but will they learn the technology???


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## sancho

ramu said:


> Have you heard the term called "changing goal post" ?


 
Hi Ramu, what exactly do you mean?




kingdurgaking said:


> Still they are dreaming of developing a 5th generation fighter right?... on top of this Japan have a rule than they shoudlnt invest on higher military offensive systems... so i guess it is logical for us also to think about it...



Deaming? They have send a complete mock up airframe for RCS test to France, years ago, while we celebrating that we have a small scale wind tunnel model of AMCA.
They are alredy developing the engine, with integrated radar blocker, something comparable to what is expected for Pak Fa, while we still struggle to make Kaveri K9 useful enough for LCA.
The first flight of their fighter was expected in the next few years, at least before the earthquake and all the other crisis that followed it, whole we hope to see it in 2017.
If you think they are dreaming, what are we doing buddy?



kingdurgaking said:


> Not so... 95KN M53 is not in the same level as M-88... they are more thirsty and are a generation behind Kaveri... the core is also not advanced... Kaveri is not useful... it is wrong to say so.. if the orginal requirement is kept... i think Kaveri is more than useful...If u see 404 is not much different from kaveri.. and even IAF is not happy with 404...



Of course it's not the same level of M88, it's the predecessor, but that's why we could have used it as a stop gap, just like we use the GE 404 now. Btw, is there any reliable source that Kaveri K9 offers comparable thrust as the GE 404? Just take a look at the last few pages and you will see figures from 60 to 85kN, not to mention that we still don't know what the weight of the engine is now. Last time I heared a figure it was around 1100Kg, which would be nearly 100Kg above the GE engine and the fact that the 2nd squadron will get GE engines as well, instead of Kaveri K9, hints that it still don't meet the requirements.




kingdurgaking said:


> True GTRE will learn the mistake... but will they learn the technology???



I would say yes, otherwise they wouldn't choose the French for TVC developments, although we could go with Russians, or Germans that already developed these techs before isn't it?
We can complain about the costs that comes with French arms and techs, but the simple fact that not only our forces, but also our industry prefers JV, or coops with French industry does tells us something about ToT, or the gain we have don't you think? 

Sudhir007 posted an interesting article in the IAF thread about the difference of Indian and Chinese helicopter developments:



> ...ISSUES
> 
> While both platforms struggled with their own issues, HALs LCH suffered due to its overweight, *but with years of experience in development of ALH, HAL was able to overcome with initial set back it suffered with LCH*, but Chinese which had first flight of WZ-10 way back in 2003 still are having problems particularly in the area of survivability during crashes. and are having problems to hit production of their helicopter.
> 
> Engines
> 
> WZ-10 project also suffered due to non-availability of engines for the helicopter, Chinese had to experiment with three different engines for WZ-10, and one been Russian developed Klimov VK-2500 turboshaft engine that powers Mil Mi-17s sold to China , second been Ukrainian Motor-Sich TV3-117 that powers Mil Mi-28 and even Pratt & Whitney developed PT6C-67C for their civilian variant ,its rumoured that Ukrainians are helping Chinese develop their own engine for the platform but still now all their prototypes are been powered by different foreign engines .
> 
> *LCH while on other hand will have the same reliable HAL and Turbomeca developed Shakti turboshaft engine which also powers HAL developed Dhruv ALH*, while LCH weights half in comparison to Chinese WZ-10 (5.5 ton compared to LCHs 2.5 ton) in its current form houses a more powerful engine and is able to carry same payload of weapons, which is quite a remarkable achievement for a much lighter attack helicopter.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/30328-indian-air-force-news-discussions-91.html


That's exactly what I'm talking about! While China struggles with own developments, because they have to do it alone and with much experimenting, we had the advantage of experienced co-development partners, or proven stop gap parts. That gave us the advantage not only to field the aircraft in time and with less risks, but also to learn a lot and gain experience. *All the money China spends in their developments can still not counter this advantage and that's why we should use it more, alongside of our indigenous developments!*


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## ramu

The requirement of Kaveri engine in 1990s and the changed requirement based on renewed thrust requirement is a fundamental change in specification. It is like asking for a rope bridge and then demanding for a wooden bridge across the gorge. I agree GTRE could do much better but Kaveri after all is based on experience of using Russian engines. But we have to accept the point that the GTRE had their requirements changed when they were close to deliver a solution.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Deaming? They have send a complete mock up airframe for RCS test to France, years ago, while we celebrating that we have a small scale wind tunnel model of AMCA.
> They are alredy developing the engine, with integrated radar blocker, something comparable to what is expected for Pak Fa, while we still struggle to make Kaveri K9 useful enough for LCA.
> The first flight of their fighter was expected in the next few years, at least before the earthquake and all the other crisis that followed it, whole we hope to see it in 2017.
> If you think they are dreaming, what are we doing buddy?


Dreaming refers to the same enthu they have got the same way ADA has got for AMCA... they are developing and we will also develop the engine.. Both Japan and we are dreaming to achieve the target.... is my argument..


sancho said:


> Of course it's not the same level of M88, it's the predecessor, but that's why we could have used it as a stop gap, just like we use the GE 404 now. Btw, is there any reliable source that Kaveri K9 offers comparable thrust as the GE 404? Just take a look at the last few pages and you will see figures from 60 to 85kN, not to mention that we still don't know what the weight of the engine is now. Last time I heared a figure it was around 1100Kg, which would be nearly 100Kg above the GE engine and the fact that the 2nd squadron will get GE engines as well, instead of Kaveri K9, hints that it still don't meet the requirements.


GE has more than half a century experience .. and the initial foundation of 404 which ran in 1978 to 1996 had a thrust increase from 78KN to 85KN.. this 85KN specifically modified for LCA... while the kaveri first try brought it to 81KN shot of 4 KN and being over weight by 150 kg... dont you think this is an accomplishment?... Kaveri engine officially kicked off 1989 only... so to setup infra and do the research on mettalurgy .... i really feel this is an accomplishment... yeah it didnt meet the requirement of 85KN and weight... but you are seeing this as a failure .... but for me it is an accomplishment... it brought an valuable accomplishment to the country.. event couple of week back we saw report where DRML where able to build some complex alloys... which wouldnt have been possible if we had not laid the seed....

While it is difficult to convince IAF to accept this .... it cant be met for the First lot of MK1....

see the post in BR from chackojoseph ... this is a huge accomplishment...



> Kaveri engine dosen't has a problem per say except a particular area in the core. The materials are not able to withstand heat and have weight. So the K-10 will have Kabini core being modified for heat handling. DRDO is proposing to buy off the technologies and help in adapting it to the Kabini core.
> 
> DRDO wants to learn from this. K-10 will have heat areas (like SC blades) attended to in Kabini as well as weight management. Thrust will be increased.
> So, DRDO will learn, engine will be produced and Snecma will get its share of the money.





sancho said:


> I would say yes, otherwise they wouldn't choose the French for TVC developments, although we could go with Russians, or Germans that already developed these techs before isn't it?
> We can complain about the costs that comes with French arms and techs, but the simple fact that not only our forces, but also our industry prefers JV, or coops with French industry does tells us something about ToT, or the gain we have don't you think?
> 
> Sudhir007 posted an interesting article in the IAF thread about the difference of Indian and Chinese helicopter developments:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/30328-indian-air-force-news-discussions-91.html
> 
> That's exactly what I'm talking about! While China struggles with own developments, because they have to do it alone and with much experimenting, we had the advantage of experienced co-development partners, or proven stop gap parts. That gave us the advantage not only to field the aircraft in time and with less risks, but also to learn a lot and gain experience. *All the money China spends in their developments can still not counter this advantage and that's why we should use it more, alongside of our indigenous developments!*


 
ToT is good.. but JV is not... in JV you dont learn the IP.. 

while in Shakthi engine... HAL didnt have any experience it went to JV.. still we dont have any IP about the other party ....while the weight reduction is carried by us on our own... 
China one day will learn it entirely.... while we will also but that money will have to be spent for us to learn.. difference is we will have our own sweet time.... thats why i say JV is good if you dont have time.....


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## sancho

ramu said:


> The requirement of Kaveri engine in 1990s and the changed requirement based on renewed thrust requirement is a fundamental change in specification. It is like asking for a rope bridge and then demanding for a wooden bridge across the gorge. I agree GTRE could do much better but Kaveri after all is based on experience of using Russian engines. But we have to accept the point that the GTRE had their requirements changed when they were close to deliver a solution.



Doubtful, because it is not only thrust that is the problem, but also weight (like in most of our developments ) and they didn't changed all the requirements right?




kingdurgaking said:


> i really feel this is an accomplishment... yeah it didnt meet the requirement of 85KN and weight... but you are seeing this as a failure .... but for me it is an accomplishment... *it brought an valuable accomplishment to the country*...



Why do we tend to put pride over logic?

If Kaveri engine was meant as an tech demonstrator for first indigenous engine developments, I would totally agree with you and say, it is a good accomplishment, but that simply wasn't the aim!
Kaveri was meant to power LCA and as long as it can't do that by meeting the requirements it is the failed part of the LCA project. This failure combined with the bad planing caused most of the delays for Tejas and we have to learn from this by admiting it, investigating where the problems where, what we can do better next time...instead of downplaying it! 

I am happy that we started these indigenous developments, but I don't see why we should celebrate it, if it didn't help us in our projects. Just like I don't celebrate the roll out of N-LCA, or every test of LCA prototypes, but why I was happy after the IOC was done and why I will be more than happy when the serial production starts and we field the MK1 into operational service, because then we really have achieved something!


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Why do we tend to put pride over logic?
> 
> If Kaveri engine was meant as an tech demonstrator for first indigenous engine developments, I would totally agree with you and say, it is a good accomplishment, but that simply wasn't the aim!
> Kaveri was meant to power LCA and as long as it can't do that by meeting the requirements it is the failed part of the LCA project. This failure combined with the bad planing caused most of the delays for Tejas and we have to learn from this by admiting it, investigating where the problems where, what we can do better next time...instead of downplaying it!
> 
> I am happy that we started these indigenous developments, but I don't see why we should celebrate it, if it didn't help us in our projects. Just like I don't celebrate the roll out of N-LCA, or every test of LCA prototypes, but why I was happy after the IOC was done and why I will be more than happy when the serial production starts and we field the MK1 into operational service, because then we really have achieved something!


 
Simple question to you... 
1)of all the R&D happening in the world.. is everything successful?...
2)What is your objective?? we should never do indegenous stuff??....

Kaveri though not implemented.. it has achieved 90-95% of the target... yes not exceeded or met the goal... but knowledge has helped in developing the same for Marine... MBT.... dont you think it is a valid to consider a pride?.. we are trying and the project is not scrapped.. we are still developing... 
until the project is scrapped or closed... it is not a failure.. there is still a ray of hope...

Secondly... Requirement has changed.... it has changed by a large margin ... it is very much clear from thrust requirement 85KN is increased to 95 KN... which is openly admitted by IAF... if thrust is changed it means lot of substems are getting changed or the requirement has changed by a large margin..

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## Firemaster

^^^buddy sancho want to say that why world's most military r&d failure happens in India 
reason bad planning, corruption , lack of experienced persons , ego for not reverse engg. , lack of more funds etc.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Simple question to you...
> 1)of all the R&D happening in the world.. is everything successful?...
> 2)What is your objective?? we should never do indegenous stuff??...



Come on, I said it often enough that I am for indigenous developments, but only when we benefit from them. Limiting the LCA project to Kaveri insted was clearly a big mistake and a clear sign of overestimation! 
Indigenous engine developments are crucial, no doubt about that, but we should have done it alongside a safe alternative for LCA (like any other country does anyway), or with experienced foreign help. 




kingdurgaking said:


> Kaveri though not implemented.. it has achieved 90-95% of the target...



Any proves that would confirm this?




kingdurgaking said:


> the project is not scrapped.. we are still developing...
> until the project is scrapped or closed... it is not a failure.. there is still a ray of hope...



It is delinked from LCA, at least unless it meet the requirements, be it for MK1, or MK2, which means so far it is scrapped. The developments now are purely to improve indigenous engine developments, with out a practical use other than as a demo engine.




kingdurgaking said:


> Secondly... Requirement has changed.... it has changed by a large margin ... it is very much clear from thrust requirement 85KN is increased to 95 KN...



From MK1 to MK2, but as mentioned before, if Kaver K9 would offer comparable thrust and weight as GE 404, the 2nd MK1 squad wouldn't need more foreign engines right?


----------



## MumbaiIndians

Sacho hasn't answered any of my questions still. He is trying hard to paint Kaveri as failed design. 

His desperation has increased after successful Kaveri flights. Even IAF has refused Snecma's ec-Core now. GTRE has decided to use Indian core inside Kaveri for AMCA. 

After successful flights tests and design validation of Kaveri in Russia, IAF has vetoed Snecma eco-core and has asked GTRE to go ahead with home-grown Kabini core for AMCA engine. Snecma's role in the yet-tobe-signed JV is being reduced further now, as we speak.


----------



## rockalili

I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is : 

History belongs to S. Korea
today belongs to TaiWan
and .....
Future belongs to India . 
India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to ..... 
Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'


----------



## Ghoster

rockalili said:


> I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is :
> 
> History belongs to S. Korea
> today belongs to TaiWan
> and .....
> Future belongs to India .
> India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to .....
> Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'


 
Thanks for your input chinese troll.......Now go away


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## rockalili

This is my first time to talk with india people . I find my self made a wrong step . Yes , you are right , i will absolutely go away from india people . Because i do not like curry . remember wash your mouth and boday.......


----------



## ARCHON

^^^^ 

Derailing and offtopic. Why nobody reported the posts yet?


----------



## kingdurgaking

rockalili said:


> I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is :
> 
> History belongs to S. Korea
> today belongs to TaiWan
> and .....
> Future belongs to India .
> India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to .....
> Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'


 
Yeah as a joke it is very funny... but In reality you understand the power that is why your sensation coupled with burning made you to register and put the first message on an Indian section that too on an Indigenous powerful product....


----------



## rockalili

I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is : 

History belongs to S. Korea
today belongs to TaiWan
and .....
Future belongs to India . 
India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to ..... 
Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'
Original Post By rockalili 
Yeah as a joke it is very funny... but In reality you understand the power that is why your sensation coupled with burning made you to register and put the first message on an Indian section that too on an Indigenous powerful product.... 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
OK ,Thanks . I remember the new word "LCA" . And also i remember the words so called "Indigenous powerful product.... LCA!"


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## ARCHON

^^^^^

Again trolling on threads.. where are mods?


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## satishkumarcsc

rockalili said:


> I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is :
> 
> History belongs to S. Korea
> today belongs to TaiWan
> and .....
> Future belongs to India .
> India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to .....
> Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'


 
And China is no where in the time line....first sort it out and then you can rant about it.


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## Nirvana

rockalili said:


> This is my first time to talk with india people . I find my self made a wrong step . Yes , you are right , i will absolutely go away from india people . Because i do not like curry . remember wash your mouth and boday.......


 
Why hide Behind a false flag ?? Get a Life , We know you are Not chinese
Get Outta This Thread rather Than Trolling


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## kingdurgaking

rockalili said:


> I do not know much about LCA . But there is a famious joke in China , that is :
> 
> History belongs to S. Korea
> today belongs to TaiWan
> and .....
> Future belongs to India .
> India always say : We will...... , We about to ......., We plan to .....
> Ho...., my 'Lady gaga'
> Original Post By rockalili
> Yeah as a joke it is very funny... but In reality you understand the power that is why your sensation coupled with burning made you to register and put the first message on an Indian section that too on an Indigenous powerful product....
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> OK ,Thanks . I remember the new word "LCA" . And also i remember the words so called "Indigenous powerful product.... LCA!"


 

Good stick around to learn lot of new stuff..


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## rockalili

Viraat said:


> Why hide Behind a false flag ?? Get a Life , We know you are Not chinese
> Get Outta This Thread rather Than Trolling


 -------------------------------------------
siencely speaking , i am half Chinese . Because i live in China more than 9 years .


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## cw2005

I am a frequent visitor to the Chinese military forum and frankly speaking, not much talk about India there. There are three types of members there, one is so called HKC (Pro-China fans), the other is so called BKC (Anything Chinese made is no good) but majority is the "Normal" members with a middle stands. Many times I have even seen members are making favorable comments on the Indians and urge the members to appreciate India's progress. Some members there are highly qualified people with working experience in the military industries. They always condemn the management of those industries as the reason of delaying China&#8217;s progress on major project such as the WS-10.

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## IndianArmy

Black Widow said:


> lot of deleted Post .. Look like I missed something....
> 
> @ LCA: please update if something going on TEJAS....


 
*77LCA-Tejas* has completed 1639 Test Flights successfully. 27-Apr-2011).


* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-275,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-23)

Can Anyone explain the bolded Part?

Its from the regular Archives In ADA website


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## MumbaiIndians

Test data collected during LCA flight test programme is enormous and will reduce AMCA timeline. I think AMCA testing will be even faster.


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## Firemaster

what is wake pentration buddies??


----------



## Black Widow

Based on LCH Vs Dhruva timeline, I also thing that AMCA will be faster...

LCH is taking very less time than ALH took... 

I just want that IAF keep trust on indian mind...

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------




MumbaiIndians said:


> Test data collected during LCA flight test programme is enormous and will reduce AMCA timeline. I think AMCA testing will be even faster.


 
 Based on LCH Vs Dhruva timeline, I also thing that AMCA will be faster...

LCH is taking very less time than ALH took...

I just want that IAF keep trust on indian mind...

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## faisaljaffery

can any body tell me how to add image to your post. quick response please


----------



## madooxno9

^^ YOU need to copy the IMAGE URL and then click on the icon INSERT IMAGES and paste it there... simple as that....


----------



## faisaljaffery

I did that but its not working it gives an x like icon once i submit my post after inserting image. dont know what the hell is wrong.


----------



## faisaljaffery

[video]http://www.ajklive.com/content/mirpur-pictures/73[/video]

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

see i did that but its appearing like a link instead of image.


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## kingdurgaking

faisaljaffery said:


> [video]http://www.ajklive.com/content/mirpur-pictures/73[/video]
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------
> 
> see i did that but its appearing like a link instead of image.


 








The url is not equal to the image.. right click the image see the properties and enclose in IMG tag.. it will work

or reply with quote my post to see how it is done


----------



## sudhir007

faisaljaffery said:


> [video]http://www.ajklive.com/content/mirpur-pictures/73[/video]
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------
> 
> see i did that but its appearing like a link instead of image.



Coze you are pasting web url not image it you want to insert image then make sure at end of the url it has extension .jpg, .jpeg, .bmp etc ...


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## praveen007

faisaljaffery said:


> can any body tell me how to add image to your post. quick response please


 
hi.
A simple solution for this.
1. Type- 

2. Then type-
[url]http://(your[/url] image url with out these brackets)
3. Then type-

your image is posted
.
.




.
*Just quout my post you will see the process in reply box*.


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## MumbaiIndians

Firemaster said:


> what is wake pentration buddies??

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## MumbaiIndians

Special: A day in the life of a Tejas test pilot - Rediff.com News

*The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Singh's mission is to test a new smoke winder -- an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help NFTC test the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.*

Jet streams confuse fly-by-wire fighters like the Tejas, which are kept stable by on-board computers.

*Swedish company Saab crashed one of its Gripen fighters during testing when it flew into one. But these NFTC pilots seem to believe that flying the Tejas into a jet stream is just another day at the office.* 

"Not this week, definitely. We will be doing aerobatics twice daily and, as an article of faith, we don't drink for 48 hours before flying." But then the professional mask slips just a fraction and there is a gleam in the Air Commodore's eyes.

"But don't go away with the impression that these guys are loners. Test pilot school parties are famous in the Air Force."


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## MumbaiIndians

Kedar Karmarkar's LCA Collection from Aero-India'2011 -

http://kedar.smugmug.com/AeroIndia2011/Tejas/15838750_ECdER


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## Black Widow




----------



## luckyyy

MumbaiIndians said:


> Sacho hasn't answered any of my questions still. He is trying hard to paint Kaveri as failed design.
> 
> His desperation has increased after successful Kaveri flights. Even IAF has refused Snecma's ec-Core now. GTRE has decided to use Indian core inside Kaveri for AMCA.
> 
> After successful flights tests and design validation of Kaveri in Russia, IAF has vetoed Snecma eco-core and has asked GTRE to go ahead with home-grown Kabini core for AMCA engine. Snecma's role in the yet-tobe-signed JV is being reduced further now, as we speak.


 
Mirage2k in IAF service has a empty weight of 7500kg , if we add 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons onto it the total weight gets to 13000kg , with maximum trust of 95kn of the TWR comes to 0.73

LC-mk1 has a empty weight of 6500kg adding 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons the total weight comes at 12000kg , with the maximun thrust of F404IN at 87kn the TWR comes at 0.725.
whereas IAF resonably happy with mirage , the low thrust of LCA mk1 always been tounted...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> Mirage2k in IAF service has a empty weight of 7500kg , if we add 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons onto it the total weight gets to 13000kg , with maximum trust of 95kn of the TWR comes to 0.73
> 
> LC-mk1 has a empty weight of 6500kg adding 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons the total weight comes at 12000kg , with the maximun thrust of F404IN at 87kn the TWR comes at 0.725.
> whereas IAF resonably happy with mirage , the low thrust of LCA mk1 always been tounted...


 
Since IAF has found the light at the end of the tunnel.. thats why the initial MRCA is converted into MMRCA to hold Tejas... but take in as a real monster..


----------



## MumbaiIndians

luckyyy said:


> Mirage2k in IAF service has a empty weight of 7500kg , if we add 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons onto it the total weight gets to 13000kg , with maximum trust of 95kn of the TWR comes to 0.73
> 
> LC-mk1 has a empty weight of 6500kg adding 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons the total weight comes at 12000kg , with the maximun thrust of F404IN at 87kn the TWR comes at 0.725.
> whereas IAF resonably happy with mirage , the low thrust of LCA mk1 always been tounted...


 
Well said.

MRCA is purely a waste of taxpayer money. Advantages of LCA far outweighs costs and liabilities of MRCA.

Better scrap MRCA, focus on LCA. And, allow DRDO to pay kickbacks to babus, reporters and politicians.


----------



## Indian-Devil

Thats not a correct statement. As per the plan Tejas was designed to replace large no of ageing Mig-21s in late 90s or early 2000. Since Tejas program got delayed due to various factors and IOC came just few months back only and still its suffering from low thrust and Tejas Mk2 will come in picture not before 2015-16. Due to these delays IAF went for temp. fixes like upgrade to Bison standards for few squadrons and some possibility of increasing the MRCA no by 60-70.

MRCA concept was completly different and IAF realized its requirement during Kargil conflict where dedicated Strike aircrafts like Mig-27 were not able to do the required jobs and only Mirage did the job required in Kargil being a multirole aircraft and IAF wanted to go for few more sqadrons of Mirage fighters only. Later other aircraft manufacturers came in picture and complete saga is still running. So main purpose of MRCA program was to replace current strike aircrafts in IAF.

So Tejas and MRCA program are different, although there is a possibilty that Tejas Mk2 will be better platform which can play role of Multirole aircraft but that is 5-6 years away minimum. And IAF can not wait for that time frame. Along with that if we look at the threat situation at both the fronts (East n West) i think MRCA still required in good nos. IAF and MoD did a great job by selecting Rafale and Eurofighter for next round of the bidding process. Both platforms are equipped with state of the art technologies.

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## Black Widow

luckyyy said:


> Mirage2k in IAF service has a empty weight of 7500kg , if we add 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons onto it the total weight gets to 13000kg , with maximum trust of 95kn of the TWR comes to 0.73
> 
> LC-mk1 has a empty weight of 6500kg adding 3000kg of fuel and 2500kg of weapons the total weight comes at 12000kg , with the maximun thrust of F404IN at 87kn the TWR comes at 0.725.
> whereas IAF resonably happy with mirage , the low thrust of LCA mk1 always been tounted...


 
Coz LCA is not French, and LCA deal will not fetch commission (with French wine and girl)...



MumbaiIndians said:


> Well said.
> 
> MRCA is purely a waste of taxpayer money. Advantages of LCA far outweighs costs and liabilities of MRCA.
> 
> Better scrap MRCA, focus on LCA. And, allow DRDO to pay kickbacks to babus, reporters and politicians.



Wrong Assessment, MMRCA is needed. LCA to fill the MiG21, MMRCA to complement the Mirage2K, Jaguar and MiG23/27.. Both are different plane, both have different role to play... 

You can't use MMRCA for point defense role, while LCA is made for this role... AMCA will fill the MMRCA gap when completed... 

And MumbaiIndian was talking bout Mirage 2000 not MMRCA..  


Read Indian Devil Post, He has correctly elaborated the need of MMRCA


----------



## RPK

*IIM-A-incubated firms boost defence firepower - The Times of India*


AHMEDABAD: Given the secrecy around it, sealing business deals with Indian defence organisations is a benchmark most companies dream to create. Three start-ups incubated at IIM-Ahmedabad's Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship (CIIE) have done something large companies strive to achieve &#8212; supply products to the Indian armed forces.

So, India's much-awaited light combat aircraft 'Tejas' will have an Ahmedabad connection. The aircraft, which will be inducted into the Indian Air Force by next year, will use ceramic sensors supplied by a company incubated at CIIE, Ants Ceramics.

"Our sensor project for the aircraft began eight months ago," said Ashiwini Jain, co-founder of the company which is a venture by IIT-Kharagpur faculty and graduates to manufacture high-end ceramic components for industrial applications.

The company also supplies custom-made ceramics to Defence Research and Development Organisation, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre and Gandhinagar-based Institute of Plasma Research and has half-a-dozen patents on its techniques.

Gridbots is an artificial intelligence start-up which manufactures a suite of robotics products, supplies robots to the Indian Navy, Indian Army, BARC, among others.

The company, incubated at CIIE since 2009, has products such as a combat robot equipped with camera and GPS navigation that can be used in hazardous environments and is designed to carry heavy payloads.

The robot can also carry armour and light guns which can be remotely operated. "We supply products to the armed forces and have also been exporting a few products. If it were not for CIIE, it would have taken us a long time to reach where we are today," said Pulkit Gaur, founder, Gridbots.

Another firm, Baruni Systems supplies operations management and domain awareness solutions including mobile devices to armed forces.

Incubated at CIIE in July 2010 &#8212; 33 companies have been incubated here &#8212; Baruni Systems has been founded by two former defence personnel, an architect and an entrepreneur.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MumbaiIndians

Black Widow said:


> You can't use MMRCA for point defense role, while LCA is made for this role... AMCA will fill the MMRCA gap when completed...


 
Do you expect IAF to come out and speak otherwise? Air marshal will be transferred next day. 

MRCA is a waste of money and Mirage upgrade($40 million for single plane) is even bigger blunder.


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> whereas IAF resonably happy with mirage , the low thrust of LCA mk1 always been tounted...



Which is understandable, when you look at the changes planed for MK2 and keep in mind they are aimed for? It's not the TWR that is bad for LCA MK1, mainly it should be drag that limits the aerodynamical performance and that's why it didn't met all the planed requirements so far. The higher thrust engine is the easiest solution to counter the problems and make it at least as capable as planed.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Which is understandable, when you look at the changes planed for MK2 and keep in mind they are aimed for? It's not the TWR that is bad for LCA MK1, mainly it should be drag that limits the aerodynamical performance and that's why it didn't met all the planed requirements so far. The higher thrust engine is the easiest solution to counter the problems and make it at least as capable as planed.


 
i guess there is a redesign to solve the drag issues apart from High thrust enginge.. There is a plan to bring down the empty weight also.. Trust me.. MK2 if it comes out... it will be a smallest monster all togther.. with more useful payload and more internal fuel... to say a 1200 litre is going in....


----------



## wind

LCA success is required more for face saving of DRDO and Govt of India. I will be happy if Tejas can prove that it is better than current Mig21's and MK2 = Mig 21 Bison

Somehow bring it on


----------



## wind

MumbaiIndians said:


> Well said.
> 
> MRCA is purely a waste of taxpayer money. Advantages of LCA far outweighs costs and liabilities of MRCA.
> 
> Better scrap MRCA, focus on LCA. And, allow DRDO to pay kickbacks to babus, reporters and politicians.


 
PAF would be happy if you were IAF chief


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> i guess there is a redesign to solve the drag issues apart from High thrust enginge.. There is a plan to bring down the empty weight also.. Trust me.. MK2 if it comes out... it will be a smallest monster all togther.. with more useful payload and more internal fuel... to say a 1200 litre is going in....


 
From what we know so far it won't, only aiframe changes are meant to integrate the new engine and additional fuel tanks. I have no doubts about LCA MK2 getting a good fighter, or that it still has good potential, that's why I would love to see our industry and forces to focus more on it and further upgrades (K/S engines with TVC, AESA, passive detection sensors, or a weapon pod), instead of wasting the money for AMCA now.


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## Agnostic_Indian

sancho said:


> From what we know so far it won't, only aiframe changes are meant to integrate the new engine and additional fuel tanks. I have no doubts about LCA MK2 getting a good fighter, or that it still has good potential, that's why I would love to see our industry and forces to focus more on it and further upgrades (K/S engines with TVC, AESA, passive detection sensors, or a weapon pod), instead of wasting the money for AMCA now.


 
wasting money on AMCA ? if we start now then only we can make it by 2025 -30.


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## MumbaiIndians

Sancho and his trolling. Oh yeah


----------



## MumbaiIndians

The *Israeli radar now being fitted on the Tejas has an antenna designed by the LRDE  the slotted waveguide array antenna.* The LRDE is also undertaking the design and development of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) technology. The AESA technology allows ships and aircraft to broadcast powerful radar signals while they themselves remain under stealth. The AESAs basic building block is the TR module, a self-contained, miniaturised transmitter and receiver that makes up one of the AESA antenna elements. *In a bid to develop the AESA, the LRDE has developed L and S band TR modules.*

According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDEs LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed *X-band AESA* radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. *Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched.* Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to Indias Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.


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## MumbaiIndians

DRDO Techfocus -

Under the newly formed cluster of Micro-Electronics and Devices, the achievements include Gallium Nitride high-electron mobility transistor.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> From what we know so far it won't, only aiframe changes are meant to integrate the new engine and additional fuel tanks. I have no doubts about LCA MK2 getting a good fighter, or that it still has good potential, that's why I would love to see our industry and forces to focus more on it and further upgrades (K/S engines with TVC, AESA, passive detection sensors, or a weapon pod), instead of wasting the money for AMCA now.


 
No dear... they are optimizing the design for the drag issues and are concentrating on reducing the weight too.. Secondly AMCA is a seperate track.. Most of the avionics in AMCA will come in MK-2 also... As i said if we dont start now.. we will never start it...

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## Broccoli

Does anyone have pictures of the wing? I have read that the whole wing has been manufactured in a single piece (like a X-32 wing) and I would like to see pictures of it if possible.


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## angeldemon_007

> According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE&#8217;s LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched.


2014 is a bit ambitious. They don't even have decided whether they will go on solo or will chose a partner. If they will chose a partner it will take a couple of years to shortlist a partner and then negotiate the terms (Please correct me if i am wrong).



> Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India&#8217;s Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.


Which one is this radar ?/ I don't think this is the one on drdo awacs....


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## satishkumarcsc

Broccoli said:


> Does anyone have pictures of the wing? I have read that the whole wing has been manufactured in a single piece (like a X-32 wing) and I would like to see pictures of it if possible.


 
Not the wing...but the tail.


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## sancho

Agnostic_Indian said:


> wasting money on AMCA ? if we start now then only we can make it by 2025 -30.


 
To give you a short answer, check the following post please (#5047):

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-337.html#post1759064




kingdurgaking said:


> No dear... they are optimizing the design for the drag issues and are concentrating on reducing the weight too.. Secondly AMCA is a seperate track.. Most of the avionics in AMCA will come in MK-2 also... As i said if we dont start now.. we will never start it...


 
Can you tell me where you got that info from? Allt reports from and around Aero India that I saw said, no other aiframe changes than at the fuselage (for the new engine mainly) and even the air intakes will remain basically the same, without any new shapings.
Reducing the weight is essential, because it already has more weight than planed and changes like additional fuel tanks, bigger engine, most likely AESA radar will add more weight as well, but that has not much to do with the possible drag issue of the airframe.
I guess you meant most of the avionics of MK2 will be diverted to AMCA as well and as I already told you, we don't need AMCA, because we already have enough other developments where we gain the same advantages. Anything above an AMCA demonstrator is a complete waste of resources, at least with 5th gen techs.




angeldemon_007 said:


> 2014 is a bit ambitious. They don't even have decided whether they will go on solo or will chose a partner. If they will chose a partner it will take a couple of years to shortlist a partner and then negotiate the terms (Please correct me if i am wrong).


 
The are already in negotiations on a partnership with foreign companies, based on the Zhuk AE, Elta 2052, Vixen 1000, RBE 2 AESA and even a possible partnership with EADS on this side as well. They started this because IAF wasn't happy with the results of indigenous AESA radar developments, but since then nothing official came out about it. 
I think we wanted Elta as a partner, but since that radar has obviously key US parts, which is the reason why they could deny it to Gripen and now to LCA as well, we might see a European partner, which would be even logical by the fact that they offer much AESA ToT and source codes in the MMRCA competition anyway. Linking LCA MK2 and MMRCA would ease co-developments and reduce costs with more commonality for IAF, possibly even for IN.


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## Agnostic_Indian

sancho said:


> But what expertise can we get that we wouldn't get through LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA, AURA UCAV?
> 
> - stealth aiframe design and materials => FGFA, AURA UCAV
> - Engine developments => LCA MK2, Kaveri - Snecma co-development, MMRCA, FGFA
> - AESA radar => LCA MK2, MMRCA, FGFA,
> - NG avionics => MMRCA, FGFA
> - Remote control of aircrafts => DRDO Rustom, unmanned helicopter (with IAI), AURA UCAV
> 
> 
> As you can see, most fields are already covered and most of them through co-developments, JV, or ToT for licence productions, so why should we develop AMCA to get the same again? Also if gathering experience and knowledge is the aim, isn't a tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, Su 47, or Mig 1.44 enough?


 
I don't agree. AMCA is what f35 is for America.lt can complement FGFA in medium weight category. and I dont think co developing FGFA will expose us to all the areas of building a fighter jet from scrap remember we have only 25% work share in FGFA and we were late to join the programme also.
even if LCA has aesa we can always look for improvements and innovations in AMCA.


----------



## sancho

Agnostic_Indian said:


> I don't agree. AMCA is what f35 is for America.lt can complement FGFA in medium weight category. and I dont think co developing FGFA will expose us to all the areas of building a fighter jet from scrap remember we have only 25% work share in FGFA and we were late to join the programme also.


 
F22 - Heavy class, twin engine, multi role fighter with a focus on A2A, with high maneuverability, TVC and SC features
F35 - Medium class, single engine, multi role fighter with focus on A2G, with more space for strike weapons 

FGFA - Heavy class, twin engine, multi role fighter with a focus on A2A, with high maneuverability, TVC and SC features,
AMCA - Medium class, twin engine, multi role fighter with a focus on A2A, with high maneuverability, TVC and SC features

As you can see, the only difference is the weight class, while IAF by history has a focus on fighters with good aerodynamic performance. The initial aim of AMCA was indeed to have a stealth fighter for the strike role, similar to F35, but that is not the case today anymore. They first changed it to fully multi role than just strikes and the last reports even said it should be even more advanced than FGFA.


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## angeldemon_007

> Anything above an AMCA demonstrator is a complete waste of resources, at least with 5th gen techs.


I agree with you but i still think a technology demonstrator won't fit the requirement. IAF and IN wants to induct around 200-250 of these and that means there is a requirement...



> The are already in negotiations on a partnership with foreign companies, based on the Zhuk AE, Elta 2052, Vixen 1000, RBE 2 AESA and even a possible partnership with EADS on this side as well. They started this because IAF wasn't happy with the results of indigenous AESA radar developments, but since then nothing official came out about it.


Thats what i was saying, it will take time to finalize 2 and then select the winner and god forbids if one of the company gets blacklisted after getting finalized....
Also there are reports that DRDO is thinking on going solo. In short we are back to square one and there's no way this aesa can get ready by 2014 but i hope it gets ready.



> I think we wanted Elta as a partner, but since that radar has obviously key US parts, which is the reason why they could deny it to Gripen and now to LCA as well, we might see a European partner


I think Eurofighter will be good but only if we are selecting Eurofighter for our MMRCA. As far as India is concerned i think we want an aesa that will fit in all of our fighters like LCA, AMCA and might even FGFA and elta is the only company that fits that profile. E/L 2052 can be fit in all the category of fighters....


----------



## Dash

angeldemon_007 said:


> 2014 is a bit ambitious. They don't even have decided whether they will go on solo or will chose a partner. If they will chose a partner it will take a couple of years to shortlist a partner and then negotiate the terms (Please correct me if i am wrong).
> 
> 
> .



I dont think 2014 is ambitious, its pretty much doable, considering we have developed AESA radars. However if they choose to go for partners then that doesnt mean that the R&D will be stalled, it will continue as Kaveri is.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Can you tell me where you got that info from? Allt reports from and around Aero India that I saw said, no other aiframe changes than at the fuselage (for the new engine mainly) and even the air intakes will remain basically the same, without any new shapings.
> Reducing the weight is essential, because it already has more weight than planed and changes like additional fuel tanks, bigger engine, most likely AESA radar will add more weight as well, but that has not much to do with the possible drag issue of the airframe.
> I guess you meant most of the avionics of MK2 will be diverted to AMCA as well and as I already told you, we don't need AMCA, because we already have enough other developments where we gain the same advantages. Anything above an AMCA demonstrator is a complete waste of resources, at least with 5th gen techs.


 
To Start







see the image.. it says Aerodynamic changes.. and there was a interview which i read.. not sure from web or magazine from the director where he clearly mentioned it.. will update you on that when i find it..

Secondly ... when it is accepted that you dont need AMCA.. but government have a need for it.. they have already allocated seed funding for it.. and there was a report which clearly mentioned tech from AMCA may come in MK-2 and vice versa..


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I agree with you but i still think a technology demonstrator won't fit the requirement. IAF and IN wants to induct around 200-250 of these and that means there is a requirement...



That's what I meant, there is no operational gain we will have with 200 x AMCAs in IAF, because they don't add any capability where FGFA, or AURA wouldn't be better, it's like N-LCA, not capable, not needed but made indigenous and I don't see why we need to spend such an ammount of money only for pride reasons. For Indias security reasons, this money could be spend more effectively, especially with more and more news of China building up force in Tibet. Heck, they should safe that money and buy more AWACS aircrafts, because we are even behind Pakistan in that area now and MoD is very slow on new Phalcon orders.




angeldemon_007 said:


> I think Eurofighter will be good but only if we are selecting Eurofighter for our MMRCA. As far as India is concerned i think we want an aesa that will fit in all of our fighters like LCA, AMCA and might even FGFA and elta is the only company that fits that profile. E/L 2052 can be fit in all the category of fighters....



By the fact that EFs AESA will only be ready by 2015, or later, I don't think it's a good choice to team up with for LCA MK2s AESA. My favourite are the Israelis, or French, the earlier because we already have a radar JV with them and MMR, the later because they are far ahead at fighter AESA radars in Europe and have good future potential as well.




kingdurgaking said:


> see the image.. it says Aerodynamic changes.. and there was a interview which i read.. not sure from web or magazine from the director where he clearly mentioned it.. will update you on that when i find it..



But not for what aim, right? If you compare the specs for example, you will see the the MK2 is a bit longer and higher, because the airframe is a bit streched and the fuselage is lower, all this to fit the new engine, but not for reducing drag. I'm sure they will try to make some improvements, but there are no major redesigns to solve the problem.



kingdurgaking said:


> Secondly ... when it is accepted that you dont need AMCA.. but government have a need for it.. they have already allocated seed funding for it.. and there was a report which clearly mentioned tech from AMCA may come in MK-2 and vice versa..



LCA MK2 is expected at 2014/15, AMCAs first flight is expected in 2017, so it can't contribute anything to LCA MK2. Also so far the government has only cleared the money for a demo version and studies, not for a final fighter development with the aim of serial production.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> But not for what aim, right? If you compare the specs for example, you will see the the MK2 is a bit longer and higher, because the airframe is a bit streched and the fuselage is lower, all this to fit the new engine, but not for reducing drag. I'm sure they will try to make some improvements, but there are no major redesigns to solve the problem.
> 
> LCA MK2 is expected at 2014/15, AMCAs first flight is expected in 2017, so it can't contribute anything to LCA MK2. Also so far the government has only cleared the money for a demo version and studies, not for a final fighter development with the aim of serial production.


 


> The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter. "There are upgrades down the line in every global fighter programme and that is the case with the Tejas as well



AERO INDIA: India unveils plans for LCA 'Mark 2'

First of all we are not aware what is the exact drag issue and where it is... and secondly there are different ways to interpret a line.. As you pointed there will be no major redesign.. but there will be a change for aerodynamic changes... we can either assume there will be changes in the design.. or the change in specs may solve the issue.. but for sure IAF will not live with the drag issues.. 

secondly as you have pointed rightly on the contribute.. though not everything can contributed .. but in Avionics area it is going to contribute.. MK-2 will hold new cockpit altogether which will be as close to AMCA.. though there will be a change in software version when it comes out but the technology will be same.. to say AMCA technologies will be validated in Tejas..


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## sancho

> The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and *the aircraft will be more aerodynamic*





kingdurgaking said:


> First of all we are not aware what is the exact drag issue and where it is... and *secondly there are different ways to interpret a line*..



True, because the way I understand that excerpt is, they change the fuselage, but LCA as a fighter will be more aerodynamic, but that doesn't tell us anything about redesigns, or airframe changes for it and still just hints on the more powerful engine.




kingdurgaking said:


> MK-2 will hold new cockpit altogether which will be as close to AMCA.. though there will be a change in software version when it comes out but the technology will be same.. to say AMCA technologies will be validated in Tejas..



Buddy please don't tell me you took those reports of LCA will have 5th gen cockpit seriously.  That's just one of those sensational media reports to hype things. The cockpit of Su 35 and Pak Fa will be comparable as well, just like F35 and F18 Silent Hornet cockpit has some similarities, but that doesn't make these 4th gen fighters anything close to 5th gen.
It's more like AMCA will be based on LCA MK2 techs like the LCD displays, AESA radar, possibly Kaveri - Snecma engine, but the key for a 5th gen fighter is still the different and more advanced design. 
There is nothing AMCA will contribute to LCA, because they are too different and even without AMCA, we would further develop the radar, avionics, or engine techs for a future MK3 upgrade in a similar way.


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## RPK

Several key tests like wake penetration, flying at extremely high angles, and extensive use of radar and onboard missiles are behind schedule.

The chief of air staff wanted these tests to be completed before June, but that is now unlikely, the sources added. The maiden flight of the naval version of Tejas is also delayed. It was originally scheduled for end-2010 or early 2011, but even ground tests of the prototype have not commenced so far.

As head of the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Centre, Air Cmde Varma has not only flown some 70 sorties of Tejas but played a critical role during flights over the sea, in trying weather conditions in Rajasthan and Leh as well as the firing of onboard missiles.

The Light Combat Aircraft set a new record, flying at 1,350 kmph off the coast of Goa during some of these sorties.

Apart from more than 4,000 hours of flying fighter jets like MiG-21 and Mirage-2000 to his credit, the ace pilot had a role in the armed forces regaining control of Tiger Hills during the Kargil conflict in 1999.

He reportedly flew several sorties at night to hit enemy positions with laser guided bombs.


No Promotion, Kargil Hero Cdr Rohit Varma Quits

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> There is nothing AMCA will contribute to LCA, because they are too different and even without AMCA, we would further develop the radar, avionics, or engine techs for a future MK3 upgrade in a similar way.


 
you are posting no sence and just adment in your behavioue , you neither like LCA and now subjected to development of AMCA too..
but it don't matter , you have your own imaginations and cliams which has no materialistic impect on any such issue...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> True, because the way I understand that excerpt is, they change the fuselage, but LCA as a fighter will be more aerodynamic, but that doesn't tell us anything about redesigns, or airframe changes for it and still just hints on the more powerful engine.
> 
> Buddy please don't tell me you took those reports of LCA will have 5th gen cockpit seriously.  That's just one of those sensational media reports to hype things. The cockpit of Su 35 and Pak Fa will be comparable as well, just like F35 and F18 Silent Hornet cockpit has some similarities, but that doesn't make these 4th gen fighters anything close to 5th gen.
> It's more like AMCA will be based on LCA MK2 techs like the LCD displays, AESA radar, possibly Kaveri - Snecma engine, but the key for a 5th gen fighter is still the different and more advanced design.
> There is nothing AMCA will contribute to LCA, because they are too different and even without AMCA, we would further develop the radar, avionics, or engine techs for a future MK3 upgrade in a similar way.


 
So what i can understand from your POV is aerodynamic improvement doesn't necessarily be on the airframe.... so can you explain in detail where can a aerodynamic improvements can happen? As per me aerodynamic happens on airframe.. and there was a hindu report which stated that IAF insist on this

The Hindu : National : IAF insists on changes to Tejas\



> Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and &#8220;dropping and replacing&#8221; certain parts to take care of obsolescence.



Secondly on AMCA and LCA cockpit... as i stand by the reports which said initial AMCA will cockpit similar to LCA MK-2 like touchscreen,PAMLCD .... we cant gurantee what we will get.. Seeing the capabilities of DRDO... i guess these will take several years to come in picture...

There was a report by Prasun who debunked IAF ordered these Israel radar because DRDO failed miserably.... dont know when new young people will flow in DRDO and kick the old lazy goose sitting there without doing any work but just talking big ..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> you are posting no sence and just adment in your behavioue , you neither like LCA and now subjected to development of AMCA too..
> but it don't matter , you have your own imaginations and cliams which has no materialistic impect on any such issue...


 
You might want to read the part you quoted again, because I said we should further develop LCA instead of going for AMCA. So I am for LCA and against AMCA. 




kingdurgaking said:


> So what i can understand from your POV is aerodynamic improvement doesn't necessarily be on the airframe.... so can you explain in detail where can a aerodynamic improvements can happen?


 
No, I do think that normally there are changes needed at the airframe, but it seems they chose to just increase the thrust to counter the shortfalls. Think about Boeings offer for the F18SH for example, their solution to make it more maneuverable and achieve the G level that was required were more thrust and some changes at the FCS, not airframe changes.


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> You might want to read the part you quoted again, because I said we should further develop LCA instead of going for AMCA. So I am for LCA and against AMCA.
> 
> 
> Are you in favor of More expenditure on development?? If yes then support the Development of AMCA. Its development will pave the way for 6th generation machines... The way India is moving (anna hazare campaign), who knows in future we will get many A K antony (Honest/focused minister) and our research facility will as par of Israelis..
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do think that normally there are changes needed at the airframe, but it seems they chose to just increase the thrust to counter the shortfalls. Think about Boeings offer for the F18SH for example, their solution to make it more maneuverable and achieve the G level that was required were more thrust and some changes at the FCS, not airframe changes.


 
I agree with you, none of the sources have told that Airframe of LCA MKII will have major change (except minor one to accommodate new engine). Members are free to bring if they have any information...


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## Dash

The reason to go for a higher thurst engine is maninly to avoid redesign of the drag issues LCA had. After the higher thurst engine very minimal change will take place. I have only one doubt, if the drag will be compensated by higher thurst then not so much for additional weapon's load.


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## IndianArmy

Dash said:


> The reason to go for a higher thurst engine is maninly to avoid redesign of the drag issues LCA had. After the higher thurst engine very minimal change will take place. I have only one doubt, if the drag will be compensated by higher thurst then not so much for additional weapon's load.


 
It dosent work that way, The specific design cannot take more thrust than it is designed to, otherwise there would be turbulence


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## shaktiman2010

IndianArmy said:


> It dosent work that way, The *specific design cannot take more thrust than it is designed to*, otherwise there would be turbulence


 
Unless there is an unexploited big margin for that, which is usually the case with go-safe approach on any first R&D effort. 

LCA-Mk2 will not have major changes. LCA-Mk1 is a proven design now. GoI has asked the team to focus their energies on AMCA. I think that's a sensible decision.

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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> There was a report by Prasun who debunked IAF ordered these Israel radar because DRDO failed miserably.... dont know when new young people will flow in DRDO and kick the *old lazy goose sitting there without doing any work but just talking big* ..


 
And, how you are different? Sitting abroad and talking big.


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## ramu

shaktiman2010 said:


> And, how you are different? Sitting abroad and talking big.


 
Shaktiman, you seem to have a problem with people abroad. Why does it matter so much to you ?
When I was abroad, you said the same thing to me. BTW, I am in India now

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Are you in favor of More expenditure on development?? If yes then support the Development of AMCA.


 
Investing in indigenous developments is good, if they are reasonable and will give our forces, or the industry an advantage, but pride of having an indigenous carrier fighter, or and indigenous 5th gen fighter is not a good reason for me to waste so much money. We could spend in other developments, or projects that are more beneficial.


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## shaktiman2010

ramu said:


> Shaktiman, *you seem to have a problem with people abroad*. Why does it matter so much to you ?
> When I was abroad, you said the same thing to me. BTW, I am in India now


 
ramu, there are two types in that. One, sensible & mature. Others, talk big, no action. I have problem with other types. you know its better to use one's mouth properly, because others can use same stick on him. 

Since you are in Inda, hows rain? Its raining here now..


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Investing in indigenous developments is good, if they are reasonable and will give our forces, or the industry an advantage, but *pride of having an indigenous carrier fighter, or and indigenous 5th gen fighter is not a good reason for me to waste so much money*. We could spend in other developments, or projects that are more beneficial.


 
Mr_Biggest troll of LCA thread,

so pride is the only reason LCA was funded? And we thought self-reliance in critical technologies was the motive.


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> Mr_Biggest troll of LCA thread,
> 
> so pride is the only reason LCA was funded? And we thought self-reliance in critical technologies was the motive.


 
N - LCA and even IN pilots admitted that!


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> N - LCA and even IN pilots admitted that!


 
Ask those who flew LCA. Its wonderful aircraft.


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## kish

Are you saying that our pilots are those who barely passed while study . . . . I was in varanasi for my ssb of iaf . . . Some of candidates were from iit . . And about there selection process . . . It really meant for what iaf need . . .


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## shaktiman2010

Edit=================


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## Lord Of Gondor

sancho said:


> Investing in indigenous developments is good, if they are reasonable and will give our forces, or the industry an advantage, but pride of having an indigenous carrier fighter, or and indigenous 5th gen fighter is not a good reason for me to waste so much money. We could spend in other developments, or projects that are more beneficial.


It is beneficial to see local companies producing fighter aircraft right?!Isn't it better to have Tejas' firing Astraa's than Sukhoi's with R-77's waiting for spares in expensive shelters during war times?Why is it a waste to educate your kids?!(I'm referring to local R&D as our Kids)So,that we can be assured that they will look after us when we need them.
I do not understand why you are referring to such projects as unreasonable?!

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## shaktiman2010

Bharadwaj said:


> It is beneficial to see local companies producing fighter aircraft right?!Isn't it better to have Tejas' firing Astraa's than Sukhoi's with R-77's waiting for spares in expensive shelters during war times?Why is it a waste to educate your kids?!(I'm referring to local R&D as our Kids)So,that we can be assured that they will look after us when we need them.
> I do not understand why you are referring to such projects as unreasonable?!


 
Sancho has a thing against DRDO, PSU and babu culture in general. I don't know why mods are allowing such trolls here. Ignore him buddy.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> N - LCA and even IN pilots admitted that!


 
when did IN pilots fly the N-LCA to make a assesment on it !!

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## shaktiman2010

lukyyy,

what is ur email ID?


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## kish

Where the Point come that . . Several pilot barely passed there graduation . . Several local leader and not properly educated . . . Several top leader are corrupted . . . Several top babu corrupted too . . . . To be a fighter pilot/engineer everyone has to clear some steps . . . And those are to check ur ability up to boundary condition . . I cleared ssb and recommended. . But still not selected cause ekt test . . . Babus dont have to face such hard selection process . . And i talked personally to several iaf personal and some of them were from flying branch . . none of them were against indian product .. . . .

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## Lord Of Gondor

Deleted....................


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## Black Widow

kish said:


> Where the Point come that . . Several pilot barely passed there graduation . . Several local leader and not properly educated . . . Several top leader are corrupted . . . Several top babu corrupted too . . . . To be a fighter pilot/engineer everyone has to clear some steps . . . And those are to check ur ability up to boundary condition . . I cleared ssb and recommended. . But still not selected cause ekt test . . . Babus dont have to face such hard selection process . . And i talked personally to several iaf personal and some of them were from flying branch . . none of them were against indian product .. . . .


 

SSB is a hard selection process, so does the IAS (Babu).. I think you have wrong perception bout Babus.. India has Retard politicians, Its due to Babus India has achieved something.. IAS is the profession where lies the least corruption (Google it).. Not all IAS are corrupt, instead corruption in IAS is lesser than any other part |(Except Armed forces)...


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> Investing in indigenous developments is good, if they are reasonable and will give our forces, or the industry an advantage, but pride of having an indigenous carrier fighter, or and indigenous 5th gen fighter is not a good reason for me to waste so much money. We could spend in other developments, or projects that are more beneficial.


 
I will tell you a small story... There was a small country , It's ambition was to produce a world class fighter plane, they worked hard, but due to American pressure, they scrap the project...

They were not disappointed, they use the technical knowhow to generate small sub-system. Now they are best in Avionics and guidance system.. They are Israel... 

Development of Ingeniousness stealth (VLO) will give tremendous know-how, that can be used in any other field. Even if AMCA fails/Scrap, It will give us knowledge of making Radar, Airframe design, Engine, Avionics, EW suits and many small thing which is not really small... Its win-Win situation..


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> And, how you are different? Sitting abroad and talking big.


 
And where am i talking big... And how do you know i dont work as per the deliverables here??..

My argument is either DRDO deliver the deliverables as per requested or just shut the whole mouth...


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> Mr_Biggest troll of LCA thread,
> 
> so pride is the only reason LCA was funded? And we thought self-reliance in critical technologies was the motive.


 
Seems you are the second one as you have mentioned... when this is a forum .. where everyone is given opportunity to talk as per there view.. 

Sancho has his own views ... though it doesnt match with my view or any one else he has the rights to post it... first you try to be the first type and then you can comment about others... and you dont have any authority to label others as troll.. that job will be done by MoDs....


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> when did IN pilots fly the N-LCA to make a assesment on it !!


 
N-LCA is in MK-2 only... IN didnt accept LCA MK-1 ... they are using the first 6 only as a test aircraft ...


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## kingdurgaking

Black Widow said:


> Development of Ingeniousness stealth (VLO) will give tremendous know-how, that can be used in any other field. Even if AMCA fails/Scrap, It will give us knowledge of making Radar, Airframe design, Engine, Avionics, EW suits and many small thing which is not really small... Its win-Win situation..


 
Indigenousness is a welcome one.. but DRDO with lot of old just talking shits it is impossible to think we will achieve this... 
Secondly your argument on knowledge is fine.. but what are we going to do with that knowledge?.. for instance lets assume Astra-1 failed... they where not able to deliver it as per IAF required... so they go into a JV for the subsystem where they failed.. so now?? when we go to Astra-2 still we will be in JV.. and the JV will put restriction on MTCR and we are fked up... this is the situation going on Nirbhay.. unless we are able to develop the turbofan.. Nirbhay is just a dream for us..

so neither the knowledge helped us.. to carry on further.. we have just wasted resource in millions... 

Privitisation is the key.. and old folks in DRDO never allow that


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> N-LCA is in MK-2 only... IN didnt accept LCA MK-1 ... they are using the first 6 only as a test aircraft ...


 
ok , now reply to the post " when did IN pilots fly the N-LCA to make a assesment on it !!"

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> ok , now reply to the post " when did IN pilots fly the N-LCA to make a assesment on it !!"


 
Correct... but they are aware of the capabilities like MTOW, Empty weight.. and useful payload... they are also aware of other parameters like internal fuel, AoA etc.. which pretty much sums up...


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Correct... but they are aware of the capabilities like MTOW, Empty weight.. and useful payload... they are also aware of other parameters like internal fuel, AoA etc.. which pretty much sums up...


 
it looks more of your assesment !!

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> it looks more of your assesment !!


 
exactly.... and it make sense because MK-1 with current thrust cant match IN requirement...


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> exactly.... and it make sense because MK-1 with current thrust cant match IN requirement...


 
MK-1 is not for IN , all those initial order for F404IN will be fitted on LCA-mki for IAF..

Anyway IN funding 900cr into the project coz it matching requirement , and you are not IN assesment expert .

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## sancho

Bharadwaj said:


> I do not understand why you are referring to such projects as unreasonable?!


 
You obviously didn't read my early posts, I am just against AMCA not other projects, because we don't benefit from it. It won't get better than FGFA, so simply getting more of FGFAs and AURA UCAVs makes more sense in operational terms. Our industry won't have benefits as well, because they get the same by FGFA, AURA and LCA MK2 developments anyway, be it stealth design, be it AESA radar, be it engines techs, or avionics, AMCA development will bring nothing that these developments wouldn't. I fact, AMCA will be even based heavily on the techs of LCA MK2, so in your words, our kids already getting educated well in these fields and we don't have to teach them the same lesson twice isn't it? 




Black Widow said:


> Development of Ingeniousness stealth (VLO) will give tremendous know-how, that can be used in any other field. Even if AMCA fails/Scrap, *It will give us knowledge of making Radar, Airframe design, Engine, Avionics, EW suits* and many small thing which is not really small... Its win-Win situation..



Read above and then tell me, which of these points you gave is not already covered by LCA MK2 (till 2014), FGFA (till 2017) and AURA UCAV (till 2025/30)?
Add the gain we will have through MMRCA as well and you will not find a single field where AMCA will get us anything important? So why should we develop AMCA to more than a tech demo and even produce 200 fighters, if there is no real advantage other than saying, it's indigenous?

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> MK-1 is not for IN , all those initial order for F404IN will be fitted on LCA-mki for IAF..
> 
> Anyway IN funding 900cr into the project coz it matching requirement , and you are not IN assesment expert .


 
IN funding the project 900cr for 6 LCA only.... they are taking these one as test air craft... kindly understand... MK-1 is a test bed for IN to get trained on LCA....
from day 1 LCA-MK1 is not IN wanted.. LCA-MK1 will be for testing and training.. i even remember a naval officer who said he is willing to break the LCA during testing.. they are so committed with the development...


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> they are so committed with the development...


 
than you are controdicting your own comments that LCA didn't meet IN requirment , ..
so according to you LCA didn't meet IN requirment and they are so committed with the development..

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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> I fact, *AMCA will be even based heavily on the techs of LCA MK2,* so in your words, our kids already getting educated well in these fields and we don't have to teach them the same lesson twice isn't it?


 
Wrong.

AMCA is not a revision or version of LCA. Its a different class. AMCA has no commonality to LCA in design.


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## ramu

shaktiman2010 said:


> ramu, there are two types in that. One, sensible & mature. Others, talk big, no action. I have problem with other types. you know its better to use one's mouth properly, because others can use same stick on him.
> 
> Since you are in Inda, hows rain? Its raining here now..


 
You know how things are in Pune, it rains and the traffic just stalls. But it is good to be back...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> than you are controdicting your own comments that LCA didn't meet IN requirment , ..
> so according to you LCA didn't meet IN requirment and they are so committed with the development..


 
Oke ... let me explain you... i guess you havent understood the entire line but you are picking a word in the line...

LCA-MK1 will never meet IN requirement because the empty weight is around 7.5 tonne and MTOW is just 12 tonne or less.. so neither the fighter can carry more drop tanks for range nor it can carry useful payload.. while IN is working with ADA to develop the aircraft with all the internal systems and subsystem and help in flight testing.. which is where all the 6 aircraft will be used and they are commited for the development.. so they will induct the powerful MK-2 which has got more thrust ... which will ultimately carry more fuel and useful payload.. so ADA needs experience in developing fighter for landing on decks.. with automated take off etc.. which is where IN will come to there rescue... 

secondly IN commitment came because they already have bad experience with foreign mall.. so they believe it is better to go with Indian version.... There is an article they clearly mentioned "LCA is not we want but it is ours".. clearly IN is looking for fighter of the type Rafale only... so MK-2 though it wont be that much poweful yes.. it will do what IN needs...


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke ... let me explain you... i guess you havent understood the entire line but you are picking a word in the line...
> 
> LCA-MK1 will never meet IN requirement because the empty weight is around 7.5 tonne and MTOW is just 12 tonne or less.. so neither the fighter can carry more drop tanks for range nor it can carry useful payload.. while IN is working with ADA to develop the aircraft with all the internal systems and subsystem and help in flight testing.. which is where all the 6 aircraft will be used and they are commited for the development.. so they will induct the powerful MK-2 which has got more thrust ... which will ultimately carry more fuel and useful payload.. so ADA needs experience in developing fighter for landing on decks.. with automated take off etc.. which is where IN will come to there rescue...
> 
> secondly IN commitment came because they already have bad experience with foreign mall.. so they believe it is better to go with Indian version.... There is an article they clearly mentioned "LCA is not we want but it is ours".. clearly IN is looking for fighter of the type Rafale only... so MK-2 though it wont be that much poweful yes.. it will do what IN needs...


 
"LCA is not we want but it is ours" was a just casual comparision between N-LCA and rafale , but seem you are try to read too much out of it 

*"I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale.* But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. *LCA Navy will remain a modest platform , " Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai. *


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke ... let me explain you... i guess you havent understood the entire line but you are picking a word in the line...
> 
> LCA-MK1 will never meet IN requirement because the empty weight is around 7.5 tonne and MTOW is just 12 tonne or less.. so neither the fighter can carry more drop tanks for range nor it can carry useful payload.. while IN is working with ADA to develop the aircraft with all the internal systems and subsystem and help in flight testing.. which is where all the 6 aircraft will be used and they are commited for the development.. so they will induct the powerful MK-2 which has got more thrust ... which will ultimately carry more fuel and useful payload.. so ADA needs experience in developing fighter for landing on decks.. with automated take off etc.. which is where IN will come to there rescue...


 
That's because GoI was not ready to approve fundings for a special separate version of LCA, for NAVY. So, IN was stuck with two options - try to tiker, whine, beat the bushes around airforce version of LCA, which is not what they want. And second, depend on imports(which is what MoD wants).

While India is wasting tens of billions on MRCA crap, GoI neither have willingness nor time to give head to Navy's demands of special fighter aircraft project entirely custom made for Navy. Instead, GoI asked them to shut the mouth and be happy with IAF's LCA version. So now, Navy is doing everything possible with limited mandate and budget by modifying IAF's LCA to suit their needs.


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> "LCA is not we want but it is ours" was a just casual comparision between N-LCA and rafale , but seem you are try to read too much out of it
> 
> "I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that *we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. LCA Navy will remain a modest platform* , " Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai.


 
The answer lies on your post itself...

And i am not reading too much.. all my arguments is logical with the thrust of the engine...

right now LCA -IN have a empty weight of 7.5 tonne (being a twin seater) ... and it cant carry MTOW of Tejas.. it will be atleast 1 to 1.5 tonne less.. which nearly comes to 11 tonne... so what it can do?? only fly right ? that too with internal fuel... the person did agree it was a modest start and a learning experience.. so in MK-2 if the reduce the weight by a tonne to 6.5 tonne (highly unlikely).. and if MTOW is 15 tonne.. so it can carry a useful payload of a 1 to 1.5 ton with remaining it can carry more external drop tanks to cover the range... it does look great for a Navy with this configuration to do attack... with such a small platform..


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> The answer lies on your post itself...
> 
> And i am not reading too much.. all my arguments is logical with the thrust of the engine...


 
what do you mean by thrust of N-LCA , non of the F404IN going for it , they all will be on the first bach of IAF..
N-LCA will be on F414 , where is the question of thrust came for N-LCA ?

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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> The answer lies on your post itself...
> 
> And i am not reading too much.. all my arguments is logical with the thrust of the engine...
> 
> right now LCA -IN have a empty weight of 7.5 tonne (being a twin seater) ... and it cant carry MTOW of Tejas.. it will be atleast 1 to 1.5 tonne less.. which nearly comes to 11 tonne... so what it can do?? only fly right ? that too with internal fuel... the person did agree it was a modest start and a learning experience.. so in MK-2 if the reduce the weight by a tonne to 6.5 tonne (highly unlikely).. and if MTOW is 15 tonne.. so it can carry a useful payload of a 1 to 1.5 ton with remaining it can carry more external drop tanks to cover the range... it does look great for a Navy with this configuration to do attack... with such a small platform..


 
Admiral said LCA is a modest start and he regrets that we were content with setting such modest aims. What you are implying is exactly opposite of what he said.


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> what do you mean by thrust of N-LCA , non of the F404IN going for it , they all will be on the first bach of IAF..
> N-LCA will be on F414 , where is the question of thrust came for N-LCA ?


 
The first 6 will hose only F404IN.. we have signed a deal only couple of months back after negotiation for 414 though we choose on sep last year .. and the aircraft will fly in july or august .. while the first 414 will come in early 2014 ... so no way these 6 will have 414..

so there is the question of thrust.. if you dont believe me see the news 

GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence



> DRDO Chief Dr. Prahlada's comments:
> "PRICE NEGOTIATIONS AND CONTRACT FINALIZATION WILL BE WORKED IN THE NEXT TWO MONTHS...GE AVIATION WILL DELIVER 20 GE-414 ENGINES FROM 2014 AND THE REST WILL BE MANUFACTURED IN INDIA UNDER TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO OUR DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> Admiral said LCA is a modest start and he regrets that we were content with setting such modest aims. What you are implying is exactly opposite of what he said.


 
Not sure what you are trying to tell.. be more comprehensive


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> The first 6 will hose only F404IN.. we have signed a deal only couple of months back after negotiation for 414 though we choose on sep last year .. and the aircraft will fly in july or august .. while the first 414 will come in early 2014 ... so no way these 6 will have 414..
> 
> so there is the question of thrust.. if you dont believe me see the news


 
P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency " *We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations.* After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier.
*And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/34708-indian-navy-backs-n-lca-tejas-rs-900-crore.html

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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> The first 6 will hose only F404IN.. we have signed a deal only couple of months back after negotiation for 414 though we choose on sep last year .. and the aircraft will fly in july or august .. while the first 414 will come in early 2014 ... so no way these 6 will have 414..
> 
> so there is the question of thrust.. if you dont believe me see the news
> 
> GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence


 
GoI has refused to fund a separate fighter project for NAVY. So they IN has no choice but to compromise. Change of engine is part of that compromise.


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency " *We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations.* After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier.&#8221;
> *And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.*
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/34708-indian-navy-backs-n-lca-tejas-rs-900-crore.html



Exactly the first 6 will be tested with 404 .. while the induction will be done with 414 which is MK-2...

These first 6 will never be used for operations from Viraat or vikramaditya... all the 6 will work from Shore based test facility


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Exactly the first 6 will be tested with 404 .. while the induction will be done with 414 which is MK-2...
> 
> These first 6 will never be used for operations from Viraat or vikramaditya... all the 6 will work from Shore based test facility


 
do viraat has arrested wire tech to test these fighter ?
when vikramaditya going to join IN , not before 2013 !!and then it will go into a phase of commisioning for one year , that's the time 2014 when F414 will be delivered to put on N-LCA ..

what make you think ADA will be needeing 6 planes to test flight characteristics and structural strength ...

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> do viraat has arrested wire tech to test these fighter ?
> when vikramaditya going to join IN , not before 2013 !!and then it will go into a phase of commisioning for one year , that's the time 2014 when F414 will be delivered to put on N-LCA ..
> 
> what make you think ADA will be needeing 6 planes to test flight characteristics and structural strength ...


 

I guess there are changes done for putting on arrested wires.. on both the Aircraft carrier ... secondly i may be wrong all the 6 may be done SBTF.. may be 4 of them will go there.. while the other 2 with new engine may be tested on the Aircraft carrier as there is no data on how tests are going to happen.. but yes.. those test fighters coming after 2014 will definitely be of MK-2 config.. with more fuel...

since 414 and 404 are both are of same width and diameter... except for the weight and thrust


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> Exactly the first 6 will be tested with 404 .. while the induction will be done with 414 which is MK-2...
> 
> These first 6 will never be used for operations from Viraat or vikramaditya... all the 6 will work from Shore based test facility


 
Problem is not with GE engines, as you are making it to be by saying 404 is useless and 414 is the only flight-worthy engine. It doesn't work that way. 

*Even an aircaft with 60Kn engine can take off from Vikramaditya.* But question is, what capabilities will it have? And are you ready to settle with that?


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> Problem is not with GE engines, as you are making it to be by saying 404 is useless and 414 is the only flight-worthy engine. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> *Even an aircaft with 60Kn engine can take off from Vikramaditya.* But question is, what capabilities will it have? And are you ready to settle with that?


 
I have explained the same in post #5202... 404 is not helpful.. because it doesnt help in carrying any fuel or useful payload.. owing to the requirement on LCA-Navy


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> *I guess* there are changes done for putting on arrested wires.. on both the Aircraft carrier ... secondly *i may be wrong* all the 6 may be done SBTF.. *may be* 4 of them will go there.. while the other 2 with new engine *may be* tested on the Aircraft carrier as there is no data on how tests are going to happen.. but yes.. those test fighters coming after 2014 will definitely be of MK-2 config.. with more fuel...
> 
> since 414 and 404 are both are of same width and diameter... except for the weight and thrust


 
Are you serious? We can't debate on self-made assumptions and claims. Atleast provide some logic or links.


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## Black Widow

PWFI said:


> i don't read all ur post !! just


 
Then read it and come with something he missed... No one is interested in your laugh..


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> AMCA has no commonality to LCA in *design*.


 
And that's what I said:



> AMCA will be even based heavily on the *techs* of LCA MK2



So how am I'm wrong when you talk about something totally different? Twisting words aren't we? 




luckyyy said:


> P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency " *We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations.* After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier.
> *And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.*



That's exactly what kingdurgaking said from the start and he is completely right about it. N-LCA with the GE 404 engine will only be used for testing and training at the shorebased testing facility at INS Hansa. And you might want to count how many prototypes of LCA exists now for the air force version, just to have a comparison and to see that 6 for N-LCA isn't that much. The final N-LCA will get the higher thrust engine and will be available only around 2015 and still will be just a modest platform as the IN pilot said.


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> Are you serious? We can't debate on self-made assumptions and claims. Atleast provide some logic or links.


 
Thats why i said i am not sure on that.. as there is no information on public domain how the test will happen.. and as i said earlier dont pick words from the sentence but try to read the whole line.. this had been a problem with lot of people around.... instead of pointing out on me where i have admitted the testing and arrested wires on assumption.. why dont you try to post the authentic source than mocking at me...


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> *Thats why i said i am not sure on that.*. as there is no information on public domain how the test will happen.. and as i said earlier dont pick words from the sentence but try to read the whole line.. this had been a problem with lot of people around.... instead of pointing out on me where i have admitted the testing and arrested wires on assumption.. why dont you try to post the authentic source than mocking at me...


 
True. You are propogatin your assumptions as facts here. And when someone shows you mirror, you feel bad. 

So as I said, find authentic links to support your claims. Maybe we will talk then.


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> True. You are propogatin your assumptions as facts here. And when someone shows you mirror, you feel bad.
> 
> So as I said, find authentic links to support your claims. Maybe we will talk then.




Hoo yeah.. you dont need to point the mirrors to say that is my assumption... because i very well accept that it is my assumption which you can understand if you read the line properly....


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> And you might want to count how many prototypes of LCA exists now for the air force version, just to have a comparison and to see that 6 for N-LCA isn't that much. *The final N-LCA will get the higher thrust engine and will be available only around 2015* and still will be just a modest platform as the IN pilot said.


 
Do you work in DRDO? If not, provide link for this claim. And if not, then you should add "I guess" or "mujhey lagta hai ki" when saying that.


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> Hoo yeah.. you dont need to point the mirrors to say that is my assumption... because i very well accept that it is my assumption which you can understand if you read the line properly....


 
Hoo ho.. ab aisa fir mat karna acha...


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> Hoo ho.. ab aisa fir mat karna acha...


 
Are you from school or kinder garden??... just see your last 10 post.. any value added??


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> *Are you from school or kinder garden??*... just see your last 10 post.. any value added??


 
How much value that bold question adds to this thread?


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> Do you work in DRDO? If not, provide link for this claim. And if not, then you should add "I guess" or "mujhey lagta hai ki" when saying that.


 
 Like this?

Chindits: LCA Navy Mk-2 To Fly In 2015


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## kingdurgaking

self deleted...


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Like this?
> 
> Chindits: LCA Navy Mk-2 To Fly In 2015


 
From above article,
*The Mk-1 version of LCA which has GE-F404 engine, will make its first flight this year. The Navy has ordered 19 LCA Mk-1. * 

There goes his claim that Mk-1 won't make a flight.


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> From above article,
> *The Mk-1 version of LCA which has GE-F404 engine, will make its first flight this year. The Navy has ordered 19 LCA Mk-1. *
> 
> There goes his claim that Mk-1 won't make a flight.


 
   its a printing mistake and you can understand from next line itself... 

because


> *Navy places Rs 900-cr order for 6 Tejas LCA*


    ... because Navy only ordered 6 for MK-1


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> its a printing mistake and you can understand from next line itself...
> 
> because ... because Navy only ordered 6 for MK-1



First you said, Mk-1 can't fly. Now you saying opposite. Changing sides? 

printing mistake huh? ..good 1.. acchi koshish thi


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## kingdurgaking

shaktiman2010 said:


> First you said, Mk-1 can't fly. Now you saying opposite. Changing sides?


 
Arguing just like that without any base... if you have doubts or if you forgot what we are talking on.. read from 5164 post ...


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## shaktiman2010

kingdurgaking said:


> Arguing just like that without any base... if you have doubts or if you forgot what we are talking on.. read from 5164 post ...


 
How to go back? ..krupaya post page number..


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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> From above article,
> *The Mk-1 version of LCA which has GE-F404 engine, will make its first flight this year. The Navy has ordered 19 LCA Mk-1. *
> 
> There goes his claim that Mk-1 won't make a flight.


 
And again twisting words aren't we? Poor try to hide your lack of arguments!


----------



## Bratva

vidyanshu said:


> If war breakout b/w india pak, everyone knows that our army and navy are much superior in technology and number than pakistan . Check wikipedia if anyone doubts.
> 
> 
> 
> LCA can pull 9G's JF-17 can pull 8.5
> LCA max take of weight is 13,300kg JF-17 MTOW is 12,700kg
> LCA radar cross section is 1.5 square meter JF-17 is over 5 square meters
> LCA has 8 hardpoints and 3 air to air BVR weapons JF-17 has 7 hardpoints and 1 BVR weapon
> LCA has more advanced radar(AESA) than JF-17
> LCA's avionics are more technologically advanced than those of the JF-17 which most are imported
> LCA uses the Israeli lightening targeting pod which is more advanced than the FLIR used on the JF-17
> LCA uses a indigenous EW suite known as Mayavi "illusionist" includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), self-protection jammer, laser warning system, missile approach warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser and is far better than the Chinese designed EW system of the JF-17
> LCA internal fuel capacity is 2458kg JF-17 internal fuel capacity is 2300kg
> LCA's weapons are better than JF-17's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comaprison of JF-17 and LCA.
> 
> 
> Let compare them fairly.
> JF-17
> Engine:
> The engine used in JF-17 is RD93, a modification of RD33, the same engine used in older Mig29. The engine though powerful enough is known to be lazy and not good at acceleration. Also the engine is very old and newer Migs use a newer variant RD33MK of the engine.
> 
> The thrust provided by the engine is around 49.4KN without the use of afterburners. With the afterburners, the thrust is 84.4KN. Also its worth mentioning here that this old Russian engine like its counterparts is known to have problems sustaining its afterburner for longer duration of time, which suggests that most of the time the aircraft would be flying without its afterburners on. So the important thrust specification here is the49.4KN, which by today's standards and the weight of the aircraft is quite low.
> 
> The thrust to weight ration comes out to be 0.78 for an empty aircraft and 0.55 for a loaded aircraft which is a SERIOUS drawback. Its the biggest problem with the current batch of JF-17 aircraft. Even with the afterburners on the aircraft fails to exceed a ratio of 0.94 for a loaded aircraft, which is poor to say the least.
> 
> Airframe:
> The airframe of the aircraft seems to be good enough. The stabilizers are good enough and shaped perfectly. The nose is also carved nicely to direct air to enter the engines. The intakes are also nicely shaped to hide engine blades from radar waves. The airframe is good enough and nothing seems wrong with it.
> 
> The only problem with the airframe is the material. The airframe is made completely from metal and a little use of some alloys. There has beenno use of composites at all. This increases the weight as well as the rcs of the plane.
> 
> Avionics:
> This is another field JF-17 is lacking in. The chinese avionics are just not enough. Although PAF is negotiating with France and now even Italy for an avionics upgrade, nothing is surfacing as of yet. The radar in use now is KLJ-7 which is a scaled down version of the KLJ-10 radar used in the J-10 of Chinese Air Force.
> 
> The range of the radar is 75 kms in look-up mode and 35 km for look-down mode for a target of rcs 3 square meters. Also the radar can monitor upto 10 targets in TWS(Track While Scan) mode and engage two in BVR mode.
> 
> The radar is obsolete by today's standards and it would need serious backing by AWACS in order to put up a fight. Also the missile that the plane will use for its BVR engagements would be SD-10 which is a chinese missile with a range of 65 kms. And the radar is limited to 75 km for 3 square meter rcs target, so for smaller targets, the extra range of the missile won't come in handy.
> 
> The newer aircraft coming up have rcs of 1 square meter or below. The KLJ-7 would not be able to detect these targets at ranges beyond 30-40 km. In combat with these aircraft, the JF-17 would be shot down even before it can detect what hit it.
> 
> It is only after an avionics upgrade that we can analyze the true capabilities of the aircraft.
> 
> Weapons:
> The only BVR missile compatible with JF-17 for now is the SD-10 missile. As of now, not much information is available about the missile. Even the range is speculative at best. Wouldn't want to comment on it.
> 
> LCA - Tejas
> 
> Engine:
> The engine in use for the first batch of aircraft will be GE F404IN, which is a modified F404 engine, being used on F18. The engine has a max thrust of 85KN with afterburners on and 50-55 KN without afterburners. The engine is not powerful enough to allow Tejas to carry out combat maneuvers with its full load. This is the reason a new engine is being evaluated for Tejas. The new engine will have a thrust of 100KN with afterburner and 60KN without afterburner.
> 
> That would make it powerful enough and would increase the thrust to weight ratio from 0.95 with afterburner at full load to 1.07 with afterburner atfull load and 0.64 at full load without afterburners.
> 
> Add to that an unstable delta wing configuration and that makes Tejas a really good maneuverable machine. The fly by wire does a great job at making it agile at high speeds. Speaking of speeds, the new engine might also enable supercruise for LCA. Also TVC can be seen if EJ200 is selected.
> 
> Airframe:
> The LCA has a delta wing configuration without horizontal stabilizers which makes its configuration unstable. This means that it would require powerful computers and fly by wire controls to make it stable in its flight. Without these computers, it would be impossible to control the plane.
> The airframe is inspired from Mirage 2000 and is a proven one. The huge wing span will add to the maneuverability. The Y-shaped intakes guarantee reduced rcs and there is nothing spectacularly contributing to the rcs of the plane.
> 
> The LCA uses a lot of composites to reduce the weight and radar detection of the plane. The size of the plane is another factor that contributes to its low rcs. This leads me to believe the rcs of LCA would be a lot less than that of JF-17.
> 
> Avionics:
> The radar in use for the first batch will be a PESA multi mode radar ELTA EL/2032 radar. The air to air mode of 2032 radar has a range of upto150 km for 5 square meter rcs and in air to sea mode has a range of 300 kms.
> The missiles that this radar support are currently R77 and R73. The R77 has a range of upto 90 kms and it believed to be extremely maneuverable.
> 
> Also Astra Missile can be supported with the ELTA radar. DRDO believes its indigenous radar would be ready in a couple of years and its supposed to be better than 2032 radar.
> 
> 
> So all in all, its Tejas which is more advanced and capable, but its not ready yet. In future, if JF-17 wants to match up to Tejas, an avionics upgrade is desperately required.


 




Black Widow said:


> Then read it and come with something he missed... No one is interested in your laugh..




You should update yourself a little bit by going to JF-17 threads regularly. WTF RCS of JF-17 5m2? what is your source? 

the DSI bumps and LERX have considerably added to the maneuverability JF-17, and This year Block 2 will be introduced which will bring the rcs down as the use of composites has increased upto 40 percent. and Adding some special Features( stealthy features as they call) which will make it's rcs more small. So the 5m2 rcs is no more than rubbish.

The FLIR? JF-17 Block2 is going to use IRST, the AESA radar with moving dish, THE DRFM, Upgraded Avionics, IFR, The SD-10B, upgrded version of SD-10, which is specifically tailored for PAF requirements


One hardpoint will be added more in block 2, as the rumor suggest, RD-93 upgraded version will be used.

Why I put so much emphasis on Block-2? because The block-2 will be the final configuration of JF-17, And Block-1 which is now inducted will be later phased out and will be used for training purposes.

And tell me, what made you think The EW designed by you guys are better than chinese one? The Functionalities that your EW performs, and the EW functionalities on JF-17 are same. And talking about quality, since you have become biased here, let me tell you A nation who can design a Stealth aircraft, then how come his EW suit is inferior than yours? How funny.


and now talking about Radars, you have pulled the Data that is 3-4 years old. The Latest Radar Ranges are over 100Km and for 5m2 target, it is well over 130Km. since they have upgraded the radar.

And the thing about JF-17 can not fire latest missiles because of it's obsolete radar. Let me tell you. MAR-1 anti radiation is integrated with JF-17 and this year or perhaps next, we are going to place order for A-darters. and in current configuration it can fire AIM-9L too.


And about the TWR. the current block1 TWR is 1.01. and will be improved in Block 2 this year.

The G's are always mentioned 8.5+, not exactly 8.5 in JF-17

And the source for this info are, JF-17 Pakistani pilot who shared tidbits with a enthusiastic during Faranboug and Zhuhai airshows. Now i don''t care you believe or not, since it's source is JF-17 Pilot who is more knowledgeable than you ofcourse.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> That's exactly what kingdurgaking said from the start and he is completely right about it. N-LCA with the GE 404 engine will only be used for testing and training at the shorebased testing facility at INS Hansa.* And you might want to count how many prototypes of LCA exists now for the air force version, just to have a comparison and to see that 6 for N-LCA isn't that much. *The final N-LCA will get the higher thrust engine and will be available only around 2015 and still will be just a modest platform as the IN pilot said.


 
and you like to say that ADA hasn't learn anything from those prototype for IAF and like to do it all oiver again on N-LCA by building another 6 prototype..

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> and you like to say that ADA hasn't learn anything from those prototype for IAF and like to do it all oiver again on N-LCA by building another 6 prototype..



No, they don't have learned anything about the airframe changes to operate it on carriers, because that is not needed for the air force version, just like they never tested the hook, the LEVCONS and some reports still say the final version will have an angled cockpit to ease carrier landings. This is the first real fighter project for ADA, HAL and co, so of course they need several prototypes and a naval version requires major redesigns as well, which we have no idea of, or experience with, so again it is just logical that they need several prototypes and time to test the changes and all this will be done by N - LCA prototypes with GE 404IN 20 engines and at INS Hansa.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> No, they don't have learned anything about the airframe changes to operate it on carriers, because that is not needed for the air force version, just like they never tested the hook, the LEVCONS and some reports still say the final version will have an angled cockpit to ease carrier landings. This is the first real fighter project for ADA, HAL and co, so of course they need several prototypes and a naval version requires major redesigns as well, which we have no idea of, or experience with, so again it is just logical that they need several prototypes and time to test the changes and all this will be done by N - LCA prototypes with GE 404IN 20 engines and at INS Hansa.


 
ya ya , hight of imagination with defective false big claims without any source of information , seem you write your own imaginatery theories ...isn't that you fast becoming ..

*All 46 LCA ordered by navy will be powered by F414.*
http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/02/lca-navy-mk-2-to-fly-in-2015.html

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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> *No, they don't have learned anything about the airframe changes* to operate it on carriers, because that is not needed for the air force version, just like they never tested the hook, the LEVCONS and *some reports still say the final version will have an angled cockpit to ease carrier landings*. This is the first real fighter project for ADA, HAL and co, so of course they need several prototypes and a naval version requires major redesigns as well, which we have no idea of, or experience with, so again it is just logical that *they need several prototypes* and time to test the changes and all this will be done by N - LCA prototypes with GE 404IN 20 engines and at INS Hansa.



Nose modification for better visibility has been done already, on NP-1. So, your claim on "they learnt nothing" sounds like *trolling*. 

Also, they need several prototypes because they are assuming two or more will break during carrier-deck tests. So, its better to have extra 4-5 ready to keep testing on schedule. Its called good planning.


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## shaktiman2010

28 April 2008
This aircraft, with designation LSP-1, is the first to be painted in the Indian Air Force's traditional Air Force Grey camouflage pattern.


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## kish

Black Widow said:


> SSB is a hard selection process, so does the IAS (Babu).. I think you have wrong perception bout Babus.. India has Retard politicians, Its due to Babus India has achieved something.. IAS is the profession where lies the least corruption (Google it).. Not all IAS are corrupt, instead corruption in IAS is lesser than any other part |(Except Armed forces)...


 
I know IAS is hard exam . . This was my first ssb and i m also preparing for IES . . . What i got there they are just looking for who is really willing to serve IAF with no reservation . . . About corruption i personally know many leader and official in raj. And not willing to put any comment on them . . . ssb seems easy compare to civil services exam but if u go through it . . .its not easy . . Its not just meant for hard worker . . Hard study . . If u will listen what i said in my interview u will laugh . . But i found they are just really seeking who have come with iAF in his heart . . And that's where ssb goes hard even u are best in rest all thing . .


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know which of the LCA test planes are still flying and used to further the LCA program? Ie are the earlier models (LSP-1/LSP-2/LSP-3/LSP-4) still relevant enough to still advance the program or are they so far away from the final production model and later test planes (LSP-7/8) that they are outdated and hence museum peices? As if all 7/8 flew all the time/daily this would be moving the program on at great speed.


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## shaktiman2010

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone know which of the LCA test planes are still flying and used to further the LCA program? Ie are the earlier models (LSP-1/LSP-2/LSP-3/LSP-4) still relevant enough to still advance the program or are they so far away from the final production model and later test planes (LSP-7/8) that they are outdated and hence museum peices? As if all 7/8 flew all the time/daily this would be moving the program on at great speed.


 
HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## luckyyy

shaktiman2010 said:


> Nose modification for better visibility has been done already, on NP-1. So, your claim on "they learnt nothing" sounds like *trolling*.
> :


 
he is a well known big claimer , let alone the trolling ,more of a laughing stock to me..

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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> So, your claim on "they learnt nothing" sounds like *trolling*.


 
To you maybe, to others it might sound pretty logical, because IAF can't learn about the changes needed for IN, when their prototyped don't have these changes, so they never tested, or researched these things. Why do you think even the Russians, with long term experience in redesigns for carrier operations, still say they need at least 2 years to redesign Pak Fa to a naval version? It's not that easy as it seems, or as you and Luckyy might think!

Btw, twisting words and quoting out of context to claim things, isn't that a sign of trolling?


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Why do you think even the Russians, with long term experience in redesigns for carrier operations, still say they need at least 2 years to redesign Pak Fa to a naval version? It's not that easy as it seems, or as you and Luckyy might think!



Russia is not a new player, they have decades of experience. If they say 2 years, then I am sure they will manage it in just 2 years, if they want, though I haven't seen plans of N-PakFA yet.



sancho said:


> Btw, twisting words and quoting out of context to claim things, isn't that a sign of trolling?



I never pass on my imaginations as facts. That's your speciality. Just like your claim that LRDE is the agency which designed Kaveri engine.


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## PWFI

Black Widow said:


> Then read it and come with something he missed... No one is interested in your laugh..


 
I don't read child post full of bullshit


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## shaktiman2010

my favourite shot...


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## RPK

*India's Carrier Fighter Ready To Fly *

Livefist: Finally, India's Carrier Fighter Ready To Fly



The carrier variant of India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) will make its maiden flight in July. It should be said that confidence for the LCA Navy's first flight has taken its time coming. The programme team had initially aimed at getting the naval trainer prototype NP-1 airborne in December last year.

The DRDO's chief controller for aeronautical programmes Dr Prahlada was recently quoted by a newspaper as saying, "Being the first flight of the LCA naval programme, we want to ensure that everything is put in place before the first flight and that the programme is as successful as the Indian Air Force (IAF) version which has had no accidents since it started flight tests on January 4, 2001."

The LCA Navy programme team has faced challenges in strengthening the platform's landing gear and refining its sink-rate parameters.


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## Black Widow

RPK said:


> *India's Carrier Fighter Ready To Fly *
> 
> Livefist: Finally, India's Carrier Fighter Ready To Fly
> 
> 
> The carrier variant of India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) will make its maiden flight in July. It should be said that confidence for the LCA Navy's first flight has taken its time coming. The programme team had initially aimed at getting the naval trainer prototype NP-1 airborne in December last year.
> 
> The DRDO's chief controller for aeronautical programmes Dr Prahlada was recently quoted by a newspaper as saying, "Being the first flight of the LCA naval programme, we want to ensure that everything is put in place before the first flight and that the programme is as successful as the Indian Air Force (IAF) version which has had no accidents since it started flight tests on January 4, 2001."
> 
> The LCA Navy programme team has faced challenges in strengthening the platform's landing gear and refining its sink-rate parameters.


 
Bingo.... 

 Just yesterday was seeing Captain Malonkars video in areo India seminar on flight testing of Lca navy...i understood that navy is looking Nlca as an TD....they are hoping to make it multi role fighter by 2025...they are collecting huge amount of data and the navy has lot of interest in this program...NP2 the second LCA N will be ready by year end with increased thrust and modified air intakes..shiv i have one question...* i have heard that the earlier prototypes are converted in EW role, refulling probe, and one with kaveri...can you just confirm at what stages are these programmes and when are they gonna complete*...PLZ dude you can (press) can call those ppl....but i can't...!!!


can some one comment on bold part, It it true that LCA has converted to EW testbed, Refueling Probe and Kaveri engine is integrated to one of TD???


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## sathya

its june 19 th already... 
common i cn t wait to see N lca fly
not even rumors about taxi trials.. 
i highly doubt it ll done b4 july end
may b both N LCA & LSP 7 fly together...


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## RPK

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tech integration challenges hit LCA Navy; NP-1 set for engine ground run


Close to one year after its roll out (July 6, 2010), the first prototype of Indias ambitious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) naval variant (NP-1) is overcoming a series of technological challenges that have cropped-up during its development stage. NP-1 is a trainer version of the naval variant with tandem seating, while NP-2 will be the fighter version and single-seater.
Having missed many deadlines (which is understandable considering the complex issues involved with a naval platform), the officials now say that the much-awaited first flight would take place only in September. This too only if all the issues are ironed out.
Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) P.S. Subramanyam tells Tarmak007 that the delay is mainly due to the challenges being posed by some of the new technologies during the integration stage. We had problems related to the landing gear, arrestor hook, and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow for better low-speed handling). This is how technology development occurs. Now we have sorted out all major issues and have tested all naval systems. The structural coupling test has also been completed. The NP-1 is now ready for the engine ground run, he said. 
Normally, the first flight can occur approximately six weeks after the engine ground run. After the EGR, we will have the low and high-speed taxi trials and then the first flight. Developing the NP-2 is our next task. Being a single-seater, the development of NP-2 will be faster, the ADA chief said.
He said the shore-based test facility (SBTF) coming up in Goa is proceeding ahead of the schedule. By October 2011, the take-off area will be ready and by next year (2012) the landing area too will be in place.
NP-1 is the first indigenous effort to build a complete air element for the Indian Navy. With a GE-F-404-IN20 power-plant, NP-I is designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing, with high landing loads. The platforms after NP-1 and NP-2, will be powered by the GE-F-414 engines.


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## sathya

oh god it s delayed even after that (LSP 7)... i thought so..
anyway even if its late.. lets hope it will b successfull..
we can catch up with F414 thing which wii takesome time too..


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## sathya

i hope it ll happen withhin 2 months like live fist says


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## satishkumarcsc

GE 414 INS6 is not available till 2014.


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## sathya

satishkumarcsc said:


> GE 414 INS6 is not available till 2014.


 
not even a sample for development purpose ....


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## KEETARP

Can some one post LCAmk2 pics of Aero-india


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## Chengduman

sathya said:


> not even a sample for development purpose ....


May be it can use WS-13 or WS-12


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## Lord Of Gondor

sathya said:


> not even a sample for development purpose ....


 
Before these engines were selected,we had tested them,so their dimensions are well known to ADA designers.
BTW,doesn't the Mark-2 variant's development start from 2014?i.e,when the 40 LCA's with GE F404's are handed over to the IAF?

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------




Chengduman said:


> May be it can use WS-13 or WS-12


 
LOL...........Nice one


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## sathya

Bharadwaj said:


> Before these engines were selected,we had tested them,so their dimensions are well known to ADA designers.
> BTW,doesn't the Mark-2 variant's development start from 2014?i.e,when the 40 LCA's with GE F404's are handed over to the IAF?
> 
> whats the HAL gonna do ? stop LCA production between 2014 & 18 ?
> its bad ...man... even ARJUN made it clear mark 2 production starts right after mark 1
> very poor planning i must say.. considering they r not going change lca very much.


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## luckyyy

* Now all the people who have flown this aircraft swear by it, it's a wonderful aircraft , said Air Chief Marshall PV Naik ..*


Indian Air Force undergoing major transformation: Air Chief to NDTV

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## Jon Snow

knew the pilots would love this aircraft as its based on the air forces favorite fighter- mirage 2000

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## luckyyy

Jon Snow said:


> knew the pilots would love this aircraft as its based on the air forces favorite fighter- mirage 2000


 
i think it's based on isreali levy ..
please don't ask for a source coz my source would be as good as your source ..


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^You meant lavi right.Well these are speculations at best,The pilots find the jet wonderful to fly as the design team consulted with the test pilots and implemented their feedback into to the jet,thus this aircraft has user friendly ergonomics and interface.........leading to better man machine co-ordination.(IMO)

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## luckyyy

Bharadwaj said:


> ^^^You meant lavi right.Well these are speculations at best,The pilots find the jet wonderful to fly as the design team consulted with the test pilots and implemented their feedback into to the jet,thus this aircraft has user friendly ergonomics and interface.........leading to better man machine co-ordination.(IMO)


 
obiously i am speculationing as the best reply to a speculation...


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## Jon Snow

i think the pilots meant the aircraft is great in handling..... cause the cockpit is just not up to scratch...


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> knew the pilots would love this aircraft as its based on the air forces favorite fighter- mirage 2000


 
It's not based on the Mirage, it just has a similar delta wing layout, but there are clear differences in the design, check the location of the air intakes, the wing, or the gears for example, or search in this thread.
Dassault was chosen for consultancy, because of it's vast experience with delta wing design fighters!

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## Black Widow

luckyyy said:


> i think it's based on isreali levy ..
> please don't ask for a source coz my source would be as good as your source ..


 
Are you talking bout LCA???? No dude, LCA is not based on Mirage or Lavi... Its mere co-incidence that Delta wing design was chosen for LCA (May be Dr Kalam was fascinated with Delta design.. ) 

Lavi design was given to another country (not India) By "mighty America" to counter "The evil Russia"...

The Delta wing for LCA was chosen because
1. With FBW delta wing craft performance increases many fold.
2. Indian have experience of maintaining Delta wing aircraft.. 
3. I already mention Dr Kalam's love for delta wing 
4. French were consulted initially, may be they added some value to Delta wing design LCA...

No matter what you claim the truth is " LCA is design and developed by Indians in India from scratch, we took legitimate help from different companies to counter the challenges. "


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## GORKHALI

Is this ever posted here???

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## AMCA

A stunning beauty.... Just look at it...


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## Jon Snow

wow, the air intakes are like tiny ......


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## gulte

Jon Snow said:


> wow, the air intakes are like tiny ......


 
Being single engine plane, i think its fine.


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## kingdurgaking

looking almost like Euro Fighter


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## Lord Of Gondor

What is that Air duct(above the chute storing compartment) for?!


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## acetophenol

see this bird's nest next year(or before) at sulur!!

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## Black Widow

PANDORA said:


> Is this ever posted here???


 
Nope, It is new picture it seems. Its l;ooking beautiful.


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## Jon Snow

TRISHUL: Tejas Mk2 MRCA&#8217;s R & D Effort Gathers Pace

Tejas Mk2 MRCA&#8217;s R & D Effort Gathers Pace

The full-scale engineering development efforts of India&#8217;s Tejas Mk2 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) recently took a significant step forward when the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), in consultation with the Indian Air Force (IAF), froze the MRCA&#8217;s design, which will now have a length of 14.2 metres (1-metre more than that of the Tejas Mk1 for incorporationg a stretched nose section and a modified fuselage section aft of the cockpit for housing an expanded complement of mission avionics LRUs), height of 4.6 metres (as opposed to 4.4 metres of the Tejas Mk1) to accommodate an enlarged vertical tail-section, and a wingspan of 8.2 metres&#8212;same as that of the Tejas Mk1&#8212;that, however, will feature an increased wing area. External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,700kg (as opposed to 3,500kg for the Tejas Mk1), while the twin internal air-intake ducts will be minimally enlarged to cater to the increased airflow requirements of the 98kN thrust F414-GE-INS6 turbofan built by GE Aero Engines. The Ministry of Defence had, last January, sanctioned US$542.44 million (Rs2,431.55-crore) for ADA to develop the IAF&#8217;s Tejas Mk2 variant and the Indian Navy&#8217;s LCA Mk2 (Navy) variant so that the first Tejas Mk2 prototype can take to the skies by September 2013 and make this prototype fly by December 2014, following which the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) would begin series-producing the MRCA by 2016. While the IAF is committed to procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk2s, the Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 (Navy). Just like the Tejas Mk1, the airframe of the Tejas Mk2 will incorporate 13 major composites-built structures fabricated by TATA Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML), which was awarded the contract after the state-owned National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) expressed its failure to deliver the structures on time. Structures to be produced by TAML for each aircraft will include a rudder assembly, fin assembly, 60 carbon-fibre reinforced (CFC) wing spars, 38 wing fuselage fairing skins, 20 wing fuselage fairing blocks, 41 CFC centre fuselage components, two forward undercarriage doors and two aft undercarriage doors.

Vendor selection by the IAF for supplying various sub-systems for the Tejas Mk2 too is gathering pace. What has been confirmed thus far is that the two-way airborne operational data-links (ODL) will be supplied by HAL, which, among other systems, will be supplying a newly-designed mission computer (to cater to the increased processing requirements of the new fire-control system and IDAS), the RAM-1701AS radio altimeter, TACAN-2901AJ and DME-2950A tactical air navigation system combined with the ANS-1100A VOL/ILS marker, CIT-4000A Mk12 IFF transponder, COM-1150A UHF standby comms radio, UHF SATCOM transceiver, and the SDR-2010 SoftNET four-channel software-defined radio (working in VHF/UHF and L-band for voice and data communications), and the Bheem-EU brake control/engine/electrical monitoring system, all of which have been developed in-house by the Hyderabad-based Strategic Electronics R & D Centre of HAL. SAGEM Défense Sécurité will supply the Sigma-95N ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system coupled to a GPS receiver (which is also on board the Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1). The open-architecture integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS), which has been under joint development by the DRDO&#8217;s Bengaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Germany-based Cassidian since 2006, will include the AAR-60(V)2 MILDS F missile approach warning system, the EW management computer and Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver (all to be built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), countermeasures dispenser built by Bharat Dynamics Ltd, and Elettronica of Italy&#8217;s Virgilius directional jammers (now being installed on the IAF&#8217;s MiG-29UPGs), which make use of active phased-array transmitters for jamming hostile low-band (E-G) and high-band (G-J) emitters. The redesigned digital flight-control computer will be built by BEL, while the HMD chosen is the Dash Mk5 from Elbit Systems. For tactical strike missions, the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; Mk2 will be equipped with the Litening-3 LDP, supplied by RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems of Israel. The actuated retractable aerial refuelling probe, mounted on the Tejas Mk2&#8217;s starboard cockpit section, will be supplied by UK-based Cobham Mission Equipment. The same vendor will also supply the pneumatic air-to-ground stores ejection systems like release units, practice bomb carriers, multiple stores carriers, AGML-3 triple-rail launchers, and high-velocity ejection launchers, almost all of which are already operational on the IAF&#8217;s fleet of BAE Systems Hawk Mk132 lead-in fighter trainers. Cobham will thus join a growing list of foreign vendors associated with both the Tejas Mk1 and Mk2, which include Intertechnique SA, SAFRAN Group&#8217;s SAGEM Défense Sécurité subsidiary and IN-LHC ZODIAC of France; US-based GE Aero Engines, Hamilton Sunstrand, EATON Aerospace, MOOG, and Goodrich Aerospace; UK-based CHELTON Avionics, Penny + Giles, and Martin Baker (supplier of Mk 16LG zero-zero ejection seats); Italy&#8217;s Secondo Mona; and Germany&#8217;s Cassidian and Faure Herman. Indian companies involved include HAL, TAML, Data Patterns Pvt Ltd, Government Tool Room and Training Centre (GT & TC), and SLN Technologies Pvt Ltd.

By the year&#8217;s end, the IAF is expected to select the foreign vendor for supplying the integrated fire-control system (including an infra-red search-and-track sensor, or IRST, integrated with an AESA-based multi-mode radar), and a frameless canopy actuation system. The former, which will, in essence, dictate the Tejas Mk2&#8217;s combat capabilities, is likely to keenly contested by vendors from the US, France, Israel and Italy. US-based OEM Raytheon intends to offer its RACR AESA-based MMR along with a chin-mounted IRST sensor, while THALES Avionics is likely to propose a scaled-down variant of its RBE-2 AESA-based MMR integrated with the nose-mounted Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) IRST, which comprises two optical modules. The right-side module has a long-wave (8-12 micron) infra-red sensor used for target search and track out to 90km in ideal conditions. The left-side module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder for use against airborne targets. The OSF is primarily an air-to-air search, track, identification, and localisation sensor, with a limited air-to-ground localisation and identification function as of now. A future enhancement of the OSF will include a night target-identification function (for precision air-to-ground strikes and anti-ship operations) based on a mid-wave IR sensor that would replace the CCD TV camera. The ELTA Systems subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) is expected to proposed its EL/M-2052 AESA-based MMR integrated with an in-house nose-mounted IRST sensor, while Selex Galileo of Italy will most likely propose its Vixen 1000ES AESA-based MMR integrated with its 55kg Skyward nose-mounted IRST. Choice of the optimum combination of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) will be totally dependent on which fire-control system is finally selected, with the principal contenders being Raytheon (AIM-9X/AIM-120C AMRAAM), RAFAEL of Israel (Python-5/Derby), MBDA (MICA family) and Russia&#8217;s Vympel JSC (RVV-MD/RVV-SD combination), which IAI/ELTA Systems will likely propose in case the Python-5/Derby solution is rejected by the IAF.&#8212;Prasun K. Sengupta



-----------------------------
How come nobody posted it here....... its been at IDF for hours......
I know its prasun sengupta but if true then the mk 2 will be a very dangerous bird.........

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## jack220

Jon Snow said:


> TRISHUL: Tejas Mk2 MRCAs R & D Effort Gathers Pace
> 
> Tejas Mk2 MRCAs R & D Effort Gathers Pace
> 
> The full-scale engineering development efforts of Indias Tejas Mk2 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) recently took a significant step forward when the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), in consultation with the Indian Air Force (IAF), froze the MRCAs design, which will now have a length of 14.2 metres (1-metre more than that of the Tejas Mk1 for incorporationg a stretched nose section and a modified fuselage section aft of the cockpit for housing an expanded complement of mission avionics LRUs), height of 4.6 metres (as opposed to 4.4 metres of the Tejas Mk1) to accommodate an enlarged vertical tail-section, and a wingspan of 8.2 metressame as that of the Tejas Mk1that, however, will feature an increased wing area. External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,700kg (as opposed to 3,500kg for the Tejas Mk1), while the twin internal air-intake ducts will be minimally enlarged to cater to the increased airflow requirements of the 98kN thrust F414-GE-INS6 turbofan built by GE Aero Engines. The Ministry of Defence had, last January, sanctioned US$542.44 million (Rs2,431.55-crore) for ADA to develop the IAFs Tejas Mk2 variant and the Indian Navys LCA Mk2 (Navy) variant so that the first Tejas Mk2 prototype can take to the skies by September 2013 and make this prototype fly by December 2014, following which the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) would begin series-producing the MRCA by 2016. While the IAF is committed to procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk2s, the Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 (Navy). Just like the Tejas Mk1, the airframe of the Tejas Mk2 will incorporate 13 major composites-built structures fabricated by TATA Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML), which was awarded the contract after the state-owned National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) expressed its failure to deliver the structures on time. Structures to be produced by TAML for each aircraft will include a rudder assembly, fin assembly, 60 carbon-fibre reinforced (CFC) wing spars, 38 wing fuselage fairing skins, 20 wing fuselage fairing blocks, 41 CFC centre fuselage components, two forward undercarriage doors and two aft undercarriage doors.
> 
> Vendor selection by the IAF for supplying various sub-systems for the Tejas Mk2 too is gathering pace. What has been confirmed thus far is that the two-way airborne operational data-links (ODL) will be supplied by HAL, which, among other systems, will be supplying a newly-designed mission computer (to cater to the increased processing requirements of the new fire-control system and IDAS), the RAM-1701AS radio altimeter, TACAN-2901AJ and DME-2950A tactical air navigation system combined with the ANS-1100A VOL/ILS marker, CIT-4000A Mk12 IFF transponder, COM-1150A UHF standby comms radio, UHF SATCOM transceiver, and the SDR-2010 SoftNET four-channel software-defined radio (working in VHF/UHF and L-band for voice and data communications), and the Bheem-EU brake control/engine/electrical monitoring system, all of which have been developed in-house by the Hyderabad-based Strategic Electronics R & D Centre of HAL. SAGEM Défense Sécurité will supply the Sigma-95N ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system coupled to a GPS receiver (which is also on board the Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1). The open-architecture integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS), which has been under joint development by the DRDOs Bengaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Germany-based Cassidian since 2006, will include the AAR-60(V)2 MILDS F missile approach warning system, the EW management computer and Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver (all to be built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), countermeasures dispenser built by Bharat Dynamics Ltd, and Elettronica of Italys Virgilius directional jammers (now being installed on the IAFs MiG-29UPGs), which make use of active phased-array transmitters for jamming hostile low-band (E-G) and high-band (G-J) emitters. The redesigned digital flight-control computer will be built by BEL, while the HMD chosen is the Dash Mk5 from Elbit Systems. For tactical strike missions, the Tejas Mk2 will be equipped with the Litening-3 LDP, supplied by RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems of Israel. The actuated retractable aerial refuelling probe, mounted on the Tejas Mk2s starboard cockpit section, will be supplied by UK-based Cobham Mission Equipment. The same vendor will also supply the pneumatic air-to-ground stores ejection systems like release units, practice bomb carriers, multiple stores carriers, AGML-3 triple-rail launchers, and high-velocity ejection launchers, almost all of which are already operational on the IAFs fleet of BAE Systems Hawk Mk132 lead-in fighter trainers. Cobham will thus join a growing list of foreign vendors associated with both the Tejas Mk1 and Mk2, which include Intertechnique SA, SAFRAN Groups SAGEM Défense Sécurité subsidiary and IN-LHC ZODIAC of France; US-based GE Aero Engines, Hamilton Sunstrand, EATON Aerospace, MOOG, and Goodrich Aerospace; UK-based CHELTON Avionics, Penny + Giles, and Martin Baker (supplier of Mk 16LG zero-zero ejection seats); Italys Secondo Mona; and Germanys Cassidian and Faure Herman. Indian companies involved include HAL, TAML, Data Patterns Pvt Ltd, Government Tool Room and Training Centre (GT & TC), and SLN Technologies Pvt Ltd.
> 
> By the years end, the IAF is expected to select the foreign vendor for supplying the integrated fire-control system (including an infra-red search-and-track sensor, or IRST, integrated with an AESA-based multi-mode radar), and a frameless canopy actuation system. The former, which will, in essence, dictate the Tejas Mk2s combat capabilities, is likely to keenly contested by vendors from the US, France, Israel and Italy. US-based OEM Raytheon intends to offer its RACR AESA-based MMR along with a chin-mounted IRST sensor, while THALES Avionics is likely to propose a scaled-down variant of its RBE-2 AESA-based MMR integrated with the nose-mounted Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) IRST, which comprises two optical modules. The right-side module has a long-wave (8-12 micron) infra-red sensor used for target search and track out to 90km in ideal conditions. The left-side module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder for use against airborne targets. The OSF is primarily an air-to-air search, track, identification, and localisation sensor, with a limited air-to-ground localisation and identification function as of now. A future enhancement of the OSF will include a night target-identification function (for precision air-to-ground strikes and anti-ship operations) based on a mid-wave IR sensor that would replace the CCD TV camera. The ELTA Systems subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) is expected to proposed its EL/M-2052 AESA-based MMR integrated with an in-house nose-mounted IRST sensor, while Selex Galileo of Italy will most likely propose its Vixen 1000ES AESA-based MMR integrated with its 55kg Skyward nose-mounted IRST. Choice of the optimum combination of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) will be totally dependent on which fire-control system is finally selected, with the principal contenders being Raytheon (AIM-9X/AIM-120C AMRAAM), RAFAEL of Israel (Python-5/Derby), MBDA (MICA family) and Russias Vympel JSC (RVV-MD/RVV-SD combination), which IAI/ELTA Systems will likely propose in case the Python-5/Derby solution is rejected by the IAF.Prasun K. Sengupta
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Now MK2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter


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## Black Widow

> Now MK2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter



sounds good ... The LCA will be "Light MRCA..." Light MRCA


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## kingdurgaking

As expected *External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,700kg *... If we have more external hardpoints say 10-12 it is going to yield the worth...


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> How come nobody posted it here....... its been at IDF for hours......
> I know its prasun sengupta but if true then the mk 2 will be a very dangerous bird.........


 
Because many members here didn't take him as a reliable source.




kingdurgaking said:


> As expected *External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,700kg *... If we have more external hardpoints say 10-12 it is going to yield the worth...


 
True, because the lack off hardpoints is the more limiting factor.

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## blackops

&#20320;&#20204;&#31062;&#23447;;1918759 said:


> could LCA beat K8?


 
Lol troll get a life


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## luckyyy

GE Press Release on LCA engine

*The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model *

GE Aviation: GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program


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## sudhir007

luckyyy said:


> GE Press Release on LCA engine
> 
> *The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model *
> 
> GE Aviation: GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program


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## Mujraparty

NEW pic's













DAMN...

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## Mujraparty




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## Mujraparty

im n love baby.. ....


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## Mujraparty



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## Mujraparty

cool camo....

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## Mujraparty

@ LEH @ &#8722;28° C.


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## Mujraparty

my fav....
so tell me how does this looks like ...??










---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------


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## Mujraparty




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## Mujraparty




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## RPK

*Delay in rolling out Light Combat Aircraft*

Express News Service
Last Updated : 06 Jul 2011 11:23:21 AM IST

BANGALORE: India's first indigenously developed aircraft, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval variant (NP1) rolled out exactly one year ago, but the dream of its first flight remains distant.

With reports of technical hurdles in an already delayed project, the LCA's wait for final operational clearance would be a little longer. But the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has cited these hurdles as 'normal testing procedures'.

Ravi Kumar Gupta from DRDO claimed that everything was on course. "Once an aircraft rolls out of the hanger, there is a lot of ground level testing which is normal ," he said. He confirmed that they had not received any communication from their development partners (HAL and ADE), about any specific technical fault with the aircraft.

Delay in rolling out Light Combat Aircraft | | | The New Indian Express


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## trident2010

eowyn said:


> NEW pic's



This baby is getting sexier as time passes. Of all the things like MMRCA etc, for me the most joyful moment will be the full induction of Tejas in the air force


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## kingdurgaking

The Actuators under the wing are too big.. it has to be very small..

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## sancho

The new LCA site is really offering a lot of interesting infos and pics, like this one:







First time I saw a real LCA (not only a mock up), fully loaded, more LCA pics here:

Tejas, India&#039;s Light Combat Aircraft : Tejas | SmugMug


Also interesting is this pic of the cockpit at night:







Tejas - Technology - Glass Cockpit

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## kingdurgaking

^^^ yeah i was also observing the same ...Are all the 3 tanks are 1200 Litre?? ... everything looks of same size... and look very big not sure it is 800 or 1200 litre... but yes we need to increase the hard points..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^ yeah i was also observing the same ...Are all the 3 tanks are 1200 Litre?? ... everything looks of same size... and look very big not sure it is 800 or 1200 litre... but yes we need to increase the hard points..


 
The centerline is said to be able to carry up to 800l tanks only, but it's hard to tell from that pic. Two more hardpoints are important, but the increased internal fuel helps as well. LCA MK2 in the same long range CAS role, would not carry the centerline tank and normally with 2 x bombs MK1 should need only the 2 wing tanks, which means MK2 internal fuel + centerline tank.

Cya later!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> The centerline is said to be able to carry up to 800l tanks only, but it's hard to tell from that pic. Two more hardpoints are important, but the increased internal fuel helps as well. LCA MK2 in the same long range CAS role, would not carry the centerline tank and normally with 2 x bombs MK1 should need only the 2 wing tanks, which means MK2 internal fuel + centerline tank.
> 
> Cya later!



Exactly ... MK2 will be a real prove of worth... with more internal fue( by god grace if they could add upto 1200l) with 2 drop tanks of 1200l with a Brahmos in the center pylon(yeah i know my dream).. and Pythons on all six hardpoints(if 2 more hard points added)... This will really take the hell even for PLAAF as Tejas will perform beautifully in higher altitude..


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## GORKHALI

Some very nice unseen and unpasted pics of Tejas 

*Operation LEH*

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## AMCA

A complete beauty


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## GORKHALI

*Tejas AIR to AIR*

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## GORKHALI

*ONE OF MY FAVO*

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## ramu

Awesome pics... Thanks for sharing.


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## GORKHALI

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Tejas/Tejas-Air-to-Air-1/i-5CxpWWM/0/XL/IMG0036-XL.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Tejas/Tejas-Air-to-Air-1/i-WkVqJCv/0/XL/IMG0457-XL.jpg

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## GORKHALI

*
TEJAS AEROBATICS*

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## GORKHALI

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

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## GORKHALI



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## GORKHALI

*OPERATION GOA*

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## GORKHALI

*Tejas Assembly*

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## AMCA

Tejas new Improved cockpit

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## GORKHALI

*TEJAS TRAINER *

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## GORKHALI

*ALL NEW COOL AND AWESUM TEJAS WEBSITE BY ADA* 

Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft - Official Website

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## rockstarIN

I do not know whether it posted here before or not...still


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## rockstarIN

Not bad though with other a/cs


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## Water Car Engineer

*Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas performs successful night flight
*






*One of the best video made of Tejas.*


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## brational

Sweet heart!! Real beauty with a awesome cockpit.. Gr8 work HAL!!


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## Lord Of Gondor

@Pandora-The Tejas home page says that she has inbuilt A2A refueling probes!Is this true or a goof-up?


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## AMCA

self delete


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## GORKHALI

Bharadwaj said:


> @Pandora-The Tejas home page says that she has inbuilt A2A refueling probes!Is this true or a goof-up?


 
True!!but they yet to tested air refueling capabiliy but it's mandatory for Tejas to get it done before FOC,so expect some news in months to come btw here is a pic of tejas with refueling pod attached to it...

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## marcos98

Bharadwaj said:


> @Pandora-The Tejas home page says that she has inbuilt A2A refueling probes!Is this true or a goof-up?






Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## shrivatsa

they are going to have a retractable probe for mk2 rite, its such a small fighter they are packing it up with every thing possible.


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## DacterSaab

rockstar said:


> I do not know whether it posted here before or not...still


 


rockstar said:


> Not bad though with other a/cs


that's interesting infact Tejas materials are similar to those on Rafale. btw is there a similar pic for MKI available?

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## saurav

shrivatsa said:


> they are going to have a retractable probe for mk2 rite, its such a small fighter they are packing it up with every thing possible.


 
Retractable probe will unnecessarily occupy more space.. Probe should be alike to RAFALE..


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## bigest

LCA is slow in fruition


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Not bad though with other a/cs


 
Yes and it shows that we have similar development goals like the Eurocanard manufacturers, which is also a key difference to Russian, or Chinese fighters of the same gen. Even at Pak Fa, FGFA it is reported that we have a way high aim on using composites than Russia.




shrivatsa said:


> they are going to have a retractable probe for mk2 rite, its such a small fighter they are packing it up with every thing possible.


 
Possibly not, the lack of space is one issue, the outcome of integrating it is another, because it will increase the operational costs, by using more mechanical parts, while the benefit of low RCS is somewhat limited as long as it carries external loads (fuel tanks and weapons).




bigest said:


> LCA is slow in fruition


 
True, but it still has a lot of potential and is important for our industrial base. Any future development, or even the logistical support will be based on the knowledge we get with LCA now, that's why it's so important for India to get it into serial production and operational service as soon as possible.


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## Vibs

bigest said:


> LCA is slow in fruition


IAF begins establishing first LCA squadron 
IAF begins establishing first LCA squadron
Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, July 10, DHNS:

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun the process of establishing the first light combat aircraft (LCA) squadron &#8212; Tejas &#8212; and is getting help from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

Well-placed sources in the IAF said: &#8220;We already have our personnel in Bangalore and are working together with ADA and HAL to form the squadron, an official announcement about the squadron will be made soon after we are fully ready.&#8221;

A senior retired IAF Official said that a squadron would, generally comprise of 18 pilots and will have a service aircraft, a standby platform and a trainer. However, he added that the number could vary depending on the aircraft and other variables.

The first squadron of LCA will be the IAF&#8217;s 45th squadron, the Flying Daggers. They would first be based in Bangalore before being stationed at Sulur, near Coimbatore, where the IAF wants the first squadron positioned.

Speaking to Deccan Herald, ADA head P S Subramanyam, who confirmed that the IAF personnel were in Bangalore, said:&#8200;&#8220;HAL, ADA and IAF together are working on raising the first squadron.&#8221;

He said that a team of ground support personnel and technicians, who have been identified after due diligence would assist the IAF in establishing the squadron so that there is proper product support, besides having set up labs and other facilities.

The aid from HAL and ADA, he said, will be during the transition phase, and after that the role of the duo will be restricted to support and maintenance. The IAF personnel are currently going through ground testing among other things and will get on to the real activity once the LCA limited series production seven (LSP-7) and LSP-8 platforms are ready to fly.

Speaking on that, Subramanyam said:&#8200;&#8220;Despite small delays, the LSP-7 platform will take to the skies this August and the LSP-8 in November.&#8221; Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) Chief Test Pilot, Group Captain B R Krishan had told Deccan Herald in February that the aircraft would be put through rigorous testing and the limits would be pushed before handing it over to the squadron. &#8220;...The ASTE intends to push the G-force of the plane from six to eight,&#8221; he had said.

The first LCA squadron, will first fly the LSP-7 & 8, which are pegged to be very close to the final version of the aircraft. It is noteworthy that HAL and ADA had earlier said that the IAF would be provided with the LSP-7 and LSP-8 for user evaluation trials by March 2011, but have failed in meeting the deadline.

However, the delay, they say is acceptable given that the LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be very close to the final version. Not only will they be close in terms of design and ability but also in terms of the way they are manufactured, which has required HAL and ADA to make suitable changes.


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## Abingdonboy

bigest said:


> LCA is slow in fruition


 
I am sick of hearing this. Your flags say you are from China, China has developed technology from ripping-off others and stealing tech:

http://defensetech.org/2011/01/24/chinese-spies-may-have-taken-f-117-wreckage/

Wendell Minnick - Articles: MiG-29K for China Dismissed at Aero India



> "This is not an option for China's aircraft carrier program," the Russian defense industry official said, citing *unresolved differences with China over intellectual property in the Su-27/J-11B fighter scandal.
> *
> In 2009, *Russian officials accused China of stealing the blueprints for the Su-27 to produce an indigenous variant, the J-11B.* There also have been allegations that the design for *China's new L-15 advanced trainer jet was copied directly from Russia's Yak-130.
> *
> "The Chinese are going with an indigenous option for their carrier *aircraft, most likely a modified variant of the Su-33," the industry official said.
> 
> There are unconfirmed reports that China acquired a prototype of the Su-33 from Ukraine*.
> 
> The Chinese have become extremely sophisticated in their indigenous defense industrial capabilities, the official said. "*Ten years ago, you couldn't take them seriously, but they have since become very competent.*"



Whereas India has chosen to develop an entirely new plane all on their own using their own designs and resources. Obviously you wouldn't know anything about this process. Now despite, initial, meagre resources and no technical base to start off with and then numerous sanctions, India has developed a state of the art indigenous fighter by herself- yes there are foreign components but so what? HAL/ADA have been smart, they have developed what they need and then bought the best from abroad for sub systems so the get the best of both worlds. Not to mention India now has a solid base to build future generation fighters (AMCA) using the world class facilities, infrastructure and experience that has all been learnt from the LCA program. We'll see who has the last laugh. 


Put this aside I an smell the sour grapes from here.


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## faithfulguy

congrats to India for finally being able to field a squadron on LCA fighters. I guess its better late than never. Hopefully, India can produce a plane more quickly the next time around.

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## Novice09




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## sudhir007

http:///indiandefence/images-lca-tejas-mk-1/

LCA Tejas, which has passed its Initial Operational Clearence (IOC), incorporates a wide range of advanced Sensors, Weapons, Stores and Electronic Warfare suite. Sea level trials were completed at Arrakonam & Goa. Hot weather trials, in two phases completed at Nagpur.* Cold weather & high altitude flight trials were carried out at Leh. Phase I of Night flying trials is completed. The additional weapons beyond Visual Range, Gun, Rockets, Guided & Un-Guided Bombs on Tejas have been integrated. Air-to-Ground Weapons and Air-to-Air Close Combat Missiles have been released from Tejas.*
Tejas is 65% indigenous right now. DRDO, the makers have promised 75% indigenization when it reached the Final Operational Clearence (FOC).
First Batch of 20 aircrafts will be delivered to the IAF by 2013. The Second batch of 20 Tejas Mk 1 aircrafts will be delivered after FOC.
Development of Tejas Mark 2 aircraft with engine GE-F414 has begun and is scheduled to have its first flight by December 2014. Production version of Mark 2 is planned in June 2016. IAF has projected a requirement of 83 Tejas Mark 2 aircraft. The supersonic fourth generation fighter will form a 200-strong fleet for the IAF to replace its ageing Russian-made MiG-21 fleet and increase the squadron strength to 10. The first two squadrons of 20 Tejas each will be stationed at Sulur near Coimbatore and Kayathur near Tuticorin both in Tamilnadu.

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## Tshering22

faithfulguy said:


> congrats to India for finally being able to field a squadron on LCA fighters. I guess its better late than never. Hopefully, India can produce a plane more quickly the next time around.


 
Thanks mate. It is about time we privatize our industries. 90% of Indians (especially younger generation) view this as crucial to our success in aerospace and defense but old timers still think that government agencies are a salvation for our military industrial complex despite 55 years of incompetence and lack luster performance. The only government body that is fast is ISRO which is the national space agency. And that's because it is directly under the PM. 

Wish DRDO and ADA/HAL were also like that.


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## Dash

faithfulguy said:


> congrats to India for finally being able to field a squadron on LCA fighters. I guess its better late than never. Hopefully, India can produce a plane more quickly the next time around.



This time you are really faithful faithfulguy....


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## danger007

so vibs in ur view LCA is 3rd gen jet right.


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## Vibs

danger007 said:


> so vibs in ur view LCA is 3rd gen jet right.


 
Continuing our discussions.
Shortly after two Tejases roared into the sky for a quick flight display, Naik went on to describe the Tejas as a "MiG-21++" fighter, and went on to say, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up, but at present it is not." He also indicated that the* Tejas Mk-II would not only be powered by the F414 engine, but would incorporate airframe design changes and newer avionics*. A statement issued today by ADA today said that the IAF had projected a need for 83 Tejas Mk-II aircraft (which would give the IAF a fleet of 123 aircraft in total -- far less than projected). The first flight of the Mk-II is scheduled for December 2014. Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent according to the HAL chief.
So yes, LCA present model upto LSP 6 is at best a 3-3.5 gen aircraft.


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## Vibs

Only once the LSP-8 has been fully tested and all systems are working functionally and IOC obtained can it come close to the Russian definition of a 4th generation aircraft. 4th generation aircrafts include the likes of F-16, Gripen,Typhoon and Rafale.
The Mk.II is expected to have systems which would place it at gen 4.5.


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## blackops

Vibs said:


> Only once the LSP-8 has been fully tested and all systems are working functionally and IOC obtained can it come close to the Russian definition of a 4th generation aircraft. 4th generation aircrafts include the likes of F-16, Gripen,Typhoon and Rafale.
> The Mk.II is expected to have systems which would place it at gen 4.5.


 
Typhoon f16 blk 60 rafale are all 4.5 gen fighter


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## Vibs

blackops said:


> Typhoon f16 blk 60 rafale are all 4.5 gen fighter


 
My point being that by Russian definition any plane built between late 1980's and 2000 was a 4th gen. All the comparisons generally point to specs at this period of time. Calling a LCA or another plane a 4th gen + because it's replacing a Mig 21 is baseless unless all basic systems are at the minimum operating clearance level as compared to other jets considered to be in the 4th gen class.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## acetophenol

any info on the total number of tejas built?


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## Vibs

acetophenol said:


> any info on the total number of tejas built?


 
As of now restricted to Limited series Production.LSP 7 being built now to be followed by LSP 8.IAF team at HAL to over see the Series production (SP) of the first squadron after IOC given.


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## rockstarIN

LSP-7 onwards will be inducted into IAF, right?


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## MrIndianSikh

will LCA MK2 come with supercruise???? and TVC?


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## Lord Of Gondor

MrIndianSikh said:


> will LCA MK2 come with supercruise???? and TVC?


 Nope.But,it will have increased payload and speed.


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## MrIndianSikh

Bharadwaj said:


> Nope.But,it will have increased payload and speed.


 
thats good but when LCA MK2 needs new engines it would be replaced by the Kaveri mk2 that will have TVC which will also be used on the AMCA


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## DacterSaab

rockstar said:


> LSP-7 onwards will be inducted into IAF, right?


 
LSP-7 and LSP-8 would be given to IAF for User-trials i don't think they would be inducted into squadrons those will be the SP-1 to SP-40 aircrafts for 1st 2 squadrons. the 1st 20 of which will be given no.45 squadron (Flying Daggers) to be based in Bangalore.


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## DacterSaab

I've noticed that neither f-16 nor Mirage have a navalized version even though both the Americans and the French have been using Aircraft carriers for decades. 1 possible explanation i can think of is that they did not meet the navies requirements as light weight fighters they have much shorter combat radii to be very useful in high seas. If so then why are we inducting N-LCA?????


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## rockstarIN

DacterSaab said:


> I've noticed that neither f-16 nor Mirage have a navalized version even though both the Americans and the French have been using Aircraft carriers for decades. 1 possible explanation i can think of is that they did not meet the navies requirements as light weight fighters they have much shorter combat radii to be very useful in high seas. If so then why are we inducting N-LCA?????


 
It will work in tandem with other fighters, Mig-29K. 

We need N-LCA coz it is our first step towards self reliance in navel fighters. Even one of our Navy officer commented that we could have made Rafale instead of NLCA. But IN is very keen on NLCA as they faced lots of problem in the past regarding the spares etc. After all it is our fighter.

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## DacterSaab

rockstar said:


> It will work in tandem with other fighters, Mig-29K.
> 
> We need N-LCA coz it is our first step towards self reliance in navel fighters. Even one of our Navy officer commented that we could have made Rafale instead of NLCA. But IN is very keen on NLCA as they faced lots of problem in the past regarding the spares etc. After all it is our fighter.


 
Isn't that a waste of resources why build it when it's not suitable to our requirements.


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## WHITESMOKE

DacterSaab said:


> Isn't that a waste of resources why build it when it's not suitable to our requirements.


 
Well we wont waste money in true sense as the learning from NLCA will be of much much higher value. After NLAC you will be see our next navy platform will be equal or more to present Mig29 of navy.

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## Firemaster

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/photos/1326024513_RRSnw6P-848.mp4

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## DacterSaab

WHITESMOKE said:


> Well we wont waste money in true sense as the learning from NLCA will be of much much higher value. After NLAC you will be see our next navy platform will be equal or more to present Mig29 of navy.


 
our next navy platform will be the N-AMCA and i hope it's far superior to mig-29 of navy


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## rockstarIN

DacterSaab said:


> Isn't that a waste of resources why build it when it's not suitable to our requirements.


 
Apart from USN (F-18) & France (Rafale), most of the carriers in the world operates Sea Harrier in their air craft carrier.

Brazil - They use old Nighthawks.

Spain, Italy - Sea Harriers.

Russia - Mig 29k

In fact, there is few jets available in the world which can be operated from carrier.

Sea Harrier (old, we are using them now)
F-18, Rafale,
Mig-29K - we have it
F-35 - future.

Thats it.....so a Naval LCA is a great achievement for India. 


*Sea _ harrier*

Empty weight: 13,968 lb (6,340 kg)
Loaded weight: 22,950 lb (10,410 kg)
Max takeoff weight:
Rolling: 31,000 lb (14,100 kg)
Vertical: 20,755 lb (9,415 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce F402-RR-408 (Mk 107) vectored-thrust turbofan, 23,500 lbf (105 kN)

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 0.89 (662 mph, 1,070 km/h) at sea level
Range: 1,200 nm (1,400 mi, 2,200 km)
Combat radius: 300 nmi (556 km)
Ferry range: 1,800 nmi (3,300 km)
Rate of climb: 14,700 ft/min (4,485 m/min)
Wing loading: 94.29 lb/ft² (460.4 kg/m²)

*LCA*

Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,500 kg (23,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
External fuel capacity: 2x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1x 725 litre drop tank under fuselage

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3,000 km (1,840 mi) without refueling
Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.91
g-limits: +9/&#8722;3.5 g[83]

So in comparison, iN-LCA a good one..


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## Firemaster

DacterSaab said:


> our next navy platform will be the N-AMCA and i hope it's far superior to mig-29 of navy


 
No our next Naval platform would be NLCA After this There may be N-AMCA


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## dr.crazze

self delete


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## dr.crazze

is there any news that amca be using mig LMFS as their base and gov is already planning for that also


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## DacterSaab

Firemaster said:


> No our next Naval platform would be NLCA After this There may be N-AMCA


 
yes friend i meant our next navalized platform after our 1st one will be the N-AMCA and I hope it's far superior to current naval mig-29s.



crazzze said:


> is there any news that amca be using mig LMFS as their base and gov is already planning for that also


 
The LMFS will be based on PAKFA and be a single engine fighter I hope we can use Western stealth technologies as basing AMCA on LMFS will provide us nothing FGFA won't provide us with.


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## dr.crazze

The LMFS will be based on PAKFA and be a single engine fighter I hope we can use Western stealth technologies as basing AMCA on LMFS will provide us nothing FGFA won't provide us with.[/QUOTE]

sorry sir not like that mig lmfs is based on mig 1.44 and1.42 it contested for the first production version of fifth gen aircraft in russia and failed for PAKFA now there are news that it may be rebuilt and produced i think this is a chance for drdo and ada to tap this .As might be russian gov can,t support this they can buy the tech or put a joint production line . even it uses the rd33 advanced version which india is serially producing hence no problem with engine . it will be better for india as there is no point rediscovering the wheel and making a whole new aircraft means testing ioc foc and all that


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## Vibs

DacterSaab said:


> yes friend i meant our next navalized platform after our 1st one will be the N-AMCA and I hope it's far superior to current naval mig-29s.


 
N-AMCA?? A little too soon to be commenting on this don't you think? BTW India's next proposed carrier is rumored to be close to the US family of super carriers in terms of displacement as well as steam catapults to launch heavier or conventional aircraft. Don't be surprised if the Navy says it's interested in PAK-FA's.


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## dr.crazze

Vibs said:


> N-AMCA?? A little too soon to be commenting on this don't you think? BTW India's next proposed carrier is rumored to be close to the US family of super carriers in terms of displacement as well as steam catapults to launch heavier or conventional aircraft. Don't be surprised if the Navy says it's interested in PAK-FA's.


 
SORRY but where on earth did you get that news from IAC1 is 40000 tons and IAC2 will be 65000 tons class we actually do not want a usa like stratergy even navy rejected f-18s as it is very big for its iacs thus forget pakfa for navy but the lmfs shows some promise


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## Vibs

crazzze said:


> SORRY but where on earth did you get that news from IAC1 is 40000 tons and IAC2 will be 65000 tons class we actually do not want a usa like stratergy even navy rejected f-18s as it is very big for its iacs thus forget pakfa for navy but the lmfs shows some promise


 
I said close to the super carrier size.

Indian Navy is expected to officially out its plans for a second home-built aircraft carrier, the ubiquitously named IAC-II, which will be both larger and more formidable than its predecessor. Details surrounding the vessel were long murky at best, but information has now begun to surface, although many aspects remain somewhat sketchy. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Nirmal Verma, indicated in December, that the IAC-II would be sizeably larger than the I*AC-I, with a displacement of 50,000 tons*[1]. It would also have a more modern launch system, either via steam catapult or, as some as yet unconfirmed rumours have suggested, an EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft System). It is also unclear whether the carrier will be conventionally or nuclear-propelled. In any case, its larger size and more efficient launch system will enable it to field an aircraft wing that is superior both in size and diversity. 

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/Ind...theNeedforStrategicFlexibility_irehman_010610


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## Jon Snow

NFTC project director calls it quits, Tejas programme is likely to suffer - Bangalore - DNA

NFTC project director calls it quits, Tejas programme is likely to suffer

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme which has seen several delays since the project was conceived 27 years ago, has suffered another setback as Air Commodore Rohit Varma, project director of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) which oversees all flight test-related activities of aircraft, quit his post on Friday.

Air Commodore Varma reportedly hung his boots after the Indian Air Force twice denied him promotion as the air vice-marshal.
His calling it quits is indisputably a setback for the programme which has entered the critical phase of attaining the final operational clearance following which the fourth generation aircraft would be inducted into the Air Force.

&#8220;Air Commodore Varma had played a crucial role in the LCA attaining the initial operational clearance in January this year. With a new man at the helm, there could a few teething troubles as the aircraft, after attaining FOC, is also scheduled to enter the squadron services by the year-end and then will become operational in a couple of years,&#8221; said sources involved in the project.

Set up in 1994, all flight test-related activities of LCA are planned, coordinated and carried out by Bangalore-based NFTC.
Further, the LCA project, with regard to flight testing, has not been meeting its deadlines.

Though 1,652 flights have been completed successfully, the Limited Series Production 7 and 8 aircraft which will eventually enter squadron service are yet to be flight tested. This apart, the first flight of the LCA&#8217;s naval version NP-1 too has been delayed.

Though Air Commodore Varma had announced his decision to quit a month back, Defence Research Development Organisation officials on Friday said they were neither aware of his resignation nor his replacement.


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## Capt.Popeye

^^^
This news is datelined July 9th and has already been posted and discussed on this forum. In any case the LCA project is centered on an aircraft, not on any individual. 
In any case, *if* ADA considers his role to be vital; they could consider offering him a contractual position as a consultant. Many people have been similarly employed in Defence projects similarly.
While the IAF is free to elevate any officer found suitable by its promotion boards. And the NFTC is a "one star" post in the IAF/MoD scheme of things, so A/Cdre. Verma just has to move on, to civvy street.

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## Abingdonboy

Self delete


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## dr.crazze

Vibs said:


> I said close to the super carrier size.
> 
> Indian Navy is expected to officially out its plans for a second home-built aircraft carrier, the ubiquitously named IAC-II, which will be both larger and more formidable than its predecessor. Details surrounding the vessel were long murky at best, but information has now begun to surface, although many aspects remain somewhat sketchy. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Nirmal Verma, indicated in December, that the IAC-II would be sizeably larger than the I*AC-I, with a displacement of 50,000 tons*[1]. It would also have a more modern launch system, either via steam catapult or, as some as yet unconfirmed rumours have suggested, an EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft System). It is also unclear whether the carrier will be conventionally or nuclear-propelled. In any case, its larger size and more efficient launch system will enable it to field an aircraft wing that is superior both in size and diversity.
> 
> India


 
although the link is 1 year old i think the navy has already evaluated the possible fighters for its iac2 and 3 but navy doctrine suits smaller but moderate payload planes thats why they are so keen in n lca and certainly they shall not take a 22mlong PAKFA for there naval use but n amca but its still on drawing tables i think it might be rafale m


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## DacterSaab

crazzze said:


> *sorry sir not like that mig lmfs is based on mig 1.44 and1.42 it contested for the first production version of fifth gen aircraft in russia and failed for PAKFA now there are news that it may be rebuilt and produced i think this is a chance for drdo and ada to tap this* .As might be russian gov can,t support this they can buy the tech or put a joint production line . even it uses the rd33 advanced version which india is serially producing hence no problem with engine . it will be better for india as there is no point rediscovering the wheel and making a whole new aircraft means testing ioc foc and all that


 
the MiG 1.44 design was submitted for PAK FA but not chosen it was a twin engine jet. Now under LMFS project MiG proposes to build a single engine fighter fighter smaller than PAK FA similar to the LM F-35 and either way the stealth technologies incorporated into the LMFS will be the same as those used in PAK FA which we'll already have thanks to FGFA project.

on the other hand AMCA project will be a twin engined fighter and IAF requires it to be more stealthier than the FGFA, so if LMFS is based on 1.44 and follows the same carnard configuration then it cannot be stealthier due to use of carnards. The Europeans may provide us with stealth technologies which would be different from Russians and probably more efficient thereby increasing the capability of AMCA which still has 15 years for IOC so we might as well reinvent the wheel while the Russians are gonna want the LMFS earlier.


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## DacterSaab

crazzze said:


> although the link is 1 year old i think the navy has already evaluated the possible fighters for its iac2 and 3 but navy doctrine suits smaller but moderate payload planes thats why they are so keen in n lca and certainly they shall not take a 22mlong PAKFA for there naval use but n amca but its still on drawing tables i think it might be rafale m


 
I think it depends on the MMRCA if Rafale wins MMRCA navy'll go for Rafale as well but if EFT wins MMRCA then the navy'll probably go for F-35C


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## dr.crazze

I think it depends on the MMRCA if Rafale wins MMRCA navy'll go for Rafale as well but if EFT wins MMRCA then the navy'll probably go for F-35C

its unlikely because the f35c has a long list of exporters they should go for a n amca and develop it faster even a n lca mk2 will do better i don,t think there is anylink between mmrca and navy acquisition as they are separate rfi even our strategic command is planning for future nuclear delivery craft which may be rafale you can still argue that mod can think of a similar craft for familiar inventory


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## dr.crazze

DacterSaab said:


> the MiG 1.44 design was submitted for PAK FA but not chosen it was a twin engine jet. Now under LMFS project MiG proposes to build a single engine fighter fighter smaller than PAK FA similar to the LM F-35 and either way the stealth technologies incorporated into the LMFS will be the same as those used in PAK FA which we'll already have thanks to FGFA project.
> 
> on the other hand AMCA project will be a twin engined fighter and IAF requires it to be more stealthier than the FGFA, so if LMFS is based on 1.44 and follows the same carnard configuration then it cannot be stealthier due to use of carnards. The Europeans may provide us with stealth technologies which would be different from Russians and probably more efficient thereby increasing the capability of AMCA which still has 15 years for IOC so we might as well reinvent the wheel while the Russians are gonna want the LMFS earlier.


 nooooooooo mig 1.44 was not submitted for pakfa it was stopped in 1997 and mig lmfs vs sukhoi t50 happened in 2002 

A great advantage of the MiG project is the fact that its design and technical parameters are significantly different from the Sukhoi T-50. As a result, the market does not have to choose between an "either-or" situation, and both aircraft can find their place, depending upon the needs of potential export clients.

MiG-29UBT FULCRUM


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## DacterSaab

crazzze said:


> nooooooooo mig 1.44 was not submitted for pakfa it was stopped in 1997 and mig lmfs vs sukhoi t50 happened in 2002
> 
> A great advantage of the MiG project is the fact that its design and technical parameters are significantly different from the Sukhoi T-50. As a result, the market does not have to choose between an "either-or" situation, and both aircraft can find their place, depending upon the needs of potential export clients.
> 
> MiG-29UBT FULCRUM


 
whatever man LMFS has 1 engine and would be russian counterpart of JSF using same techs used on PAK FA while AMCA will be a 2 engine fighter we'll either use western techs on it or homegrown techs no russian techs as seen in LCA that uses indigenous techs and western techs not russian tech and besides there is more than 15 years before AMCA gets IOC so no point discussing and LMFS will be in the sky around 2018/2020 AFAIK while AMCA will not be there before 2025 and may only be ready by 2030.
As for MMRCA and naval acquisition there's no link but as i've mentioned navy's logical choice should be Rafael if IAF is already flying them and if IAF's flying EFTs then navy may choose to drop Rafale and purchase JSF cause it's a 5th gen jet and the IAF will also have FGFA by then so navy may also want a 5th gen jet as for the N-PAK FA it may not be uitable for IN cause it may be STOBAR jet


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## Night_Raven



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## ziaulislam

most of discussion here is on russian aircrafts and indian paper project that may never be completed


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## dr.crazze

ziaulislam said:


> most of discussion here is on russian aircrafts and indian paper project that may never be completed


 
but it still on hard paper if you want to check tissue paper projects you should see the jf 17 thread about the super duper pluto going space ship even aliens want it to serially produce


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## ziaulislam

i really think that by 2015-16 once the MRCA comes and india gets ready for its fifth genration aircrafts indian airforce will think that LCA is not needed and that they want a new generation aircraft.....LCA would have been very relvant to act as intermediate aircarft before the MRCA and PAKFA to replace the aging mig21s..but now it seems that mk2 will definetly not be avaliable before 2015..by that time jf-17 induction would have been completly completed...pakistan needed the f-7 replacement so did india for mig21..so if it cant replace mig 21 its role will be quite a question, in end only limited or no induction a tall might be the result


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## Night_Raven

ziaulislam said:


> i really think that by 2015-16 once the MRCA comes and india gets ready for its fifth genration aircrafts indian airforce will think that LCA is not needed and that they want a new generation aircraft.....LCA would have been very relvant to act as intermediate aircarft before the MRCA and PAKFA to replace the aging mig21s..but now it seems that mk2 will definetly not be avaliable before 2015..by that time jf-17 induction would have been completly completed...pakistan needed the f-7 replacement so did india for mig21..so if it cant replace mig 21 its role will be quite a question, in end only limited or no induction a tall might be the result


 
Sigh, read up on the IAF force structure.

FGFA , MRCA , MKIs and LCA come in entirely different categories of fighters.

LCA is supposed to be used in point-defense cum interceptor role and slated to replace the MIGs in the IAF's inventory.

MMRCA (as the name suggests) is to be used along-side and will eventually replace the medium weight multi-purpose Jaguars & Mirages.

MKIs are A2A superiority fighters coming in the heavyweight fighter class.

FGFA is in a new generation itself .... 

And dont bring in Pakistan and JF-17 in this thread !


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## ziaulislam

soory wont do it again sir..

but from experience of previous 17 years since LCA took it first flight ( in novemeber 1994).and how its requirement kept on creeping up and now witht he update that it would not be ready before 2015..makes any sane person to conclude what i concluded..well it would be diffrernt stry if IAF changes its REQUIREMENTS

P.S
i didnt brought jf-17/pakistan


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## dr.crazze

ziaulislam said:


> soory wont do it again sir..
> 
> but from experience of previous 17 years since LCA took it first flight ( in novemeber 1994).and how its requirement kept on creeping up and now witht he update that it would not be ready before 2015..makes any sane person to conclude what i concluded..well it would be diffrernt stry if IAF changes its REQUIREMENTS
> 
> P.S
> i didnt brought jf-17/pakistan



ok our lca will drop insecticides in fields and all your planes will go to mars and other planets 
happy now 
before coming to conclusion can;t you go through the comp thread 
some examples tejas first flight is on 4 jan 2001 not 1994


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## sathya

LCA intended to be the low tech aircraft of IAF...

but now its getting more and more advanced...( may be some day, it ll fight mirage 2000 to prove its worth.. just lke arjun)

then think about high end programmes..


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## ziaulislam

crazzze said:


> ok our lca will drop insecticides in fields and all your planes will go to mars and other planets
> happy now
> before coming to conclusion can;t you go through the comp thread
> some examples tejas first flight is on 4 jan 2001 not 1994



no not happy insectides can be very dangerous..and jet engines cant work in mars oxygen concentration is is too low there to breath, let alone a jet engine to work.

LCA first protype was rolled out in November 95 (not 94, my mistake..)


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## AMCA

ziaulislam said:


> soory wont do it again sir..
> 
> but from experience of previous 17 years since LCA took it first flight ( in novemeber 1994).and how its requirement kept on creeping up and now witht he update that it would not be ready before 2015..makes any sane person to conclude what i concluded..well it would be diffrernt stry if IAF changes its REQUIREMENTS
> 
> P.S
> i didnt brought jf-17/pakistan


 




ziaulislam said:


> no not happy insectides can be very dangerous..and jet engines cant work in mars oxygen concentration is is too low there to breath, let alone a jet engine to work.
> 
> LCA first protype was rolled out in November 95 (not 94, my mistake..)


 
My dear the LCA TD-1 first flew on 4th January 2001 . Not in 94 or 95


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## LiberalAtheist

the radar on use for the LCA is the EL2032 and has a tracking range of 150km is this for a target with a RCS of 5 square meters? 

and what is the radar cross section currently on the LCA and what will it be in the future?


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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> i really think that by 2015-16 once the MRCA comes and india gets ready for its fifth genration aircrafts indian airforce will think that LCA is not needed and that they want a new generation aircraft...


 
This shows that you didn't undertand what the primary goal of LCA *and * JF 17 for both air forces is, because it's not a simple fighter replacement, but a move to be independent from foreign imports and restrictions!
Pakistan choosed the partnership with China to achieve this, while India chose to develop a fighter alone. But that doesn't make these fighters automatically better then the fighters that are already in service and that's why JF 17 block 1 (possibly also 2) will be inferior in operational terms to F16 MLU/ B52, or LCA MK1 will be to Mirage 2000-5/Mig 29 SMT. Be it PAF, or IAF, both see JF 17 and LCA only as their low end fighters, which will increase the overall performance of both air forces, but remain to be less capable for quiet some time.
LCA is undeniably late in development, but is still the main key to improve the Indian industry and with several more capable fighters in IAF service anyway, the delays doesn't make much difference, otherwise we would have seen Mirage 2000-5s selected several years ago, for fast induction. However that is not the case and M-MRCA has exactly the same primery goal as LCA, improving our own industry!


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> However that is not the case and M-MRCA has exactly the same primery goal as LCA, *improving our own industry*!


 
Sancho my friend if thats the case then MMRCA should go to EFT even though we both want IAF to choose Rafaels as it's more capable atm


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## Dash

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho my friend if thats the case then MMRCA should go to EFT even though we both want IAF to choose Rafaels as it's more capable atm



Just because they said they will create 20000 jobs, make India a partner, blah blah bla?, good thing but the same objective can be achived by Rafale too.
They can give us engine tech. kaveri-Snechma, Radar, and when you give full TOT then its all the same. Its just that EFT makes it look more lucrative, thats all.


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## Vibs

Dash said:


> Just because they said they will create 20000 jobs, make India a partner, blah blah bla?, good thing but the same objective can be achived by Rafale too.
> They can give us engine tech. kaveri-Snechma, Radar, and when you give full TOT then its all the same. Its just that EFT makes it look more lucrative, thats all.


 
Not really.What they proposed was to include India in the partnership i.e. the consortium. What that means is that we would be involved in any new developments of the EFT right from conception. Thats always a much better way to learn than from ToT.


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## rockstarIN

What we really lack is engine technology now


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## kingdurgaking

Its been a long time.. or more than a year for new LSP to fly.. i wonder whats cooking...


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho my friend if thats the case then MMRCA should go to EFT even though we both want IAF to choose Rafaels as it's more capable atm


 
Not necessarily, because as Dash correctly pointed out, the French offer is very good in this regard as well, actually they were the first that offered such ammounts of ToT, source codes and no EMU and they have a long experience with transfer of technology and licence productions in India, that's why I don't see a big advantage for the EF in this regard. 
It is true that the EF partnership is interesting and the EF consortium includes bigger companies than the Rafale consortium, but the French have already some key co-developments and JV that could be important for LCA as well. Dash mentioned the Kaveri - Snecma engine, which could be a big point for LCA alone, but hopefully even for Rafale as well and it was reported that there are already joint developments on TVC for Kaveri engine and LCA with the French. Also they offered full ToT of the AESA radar + source codes, as well that radar as the base for the LCA MK2 radar. The RBE 2 AESA is ready now and could be a great choice to have more commonality in the fleet, while the EF radar is delayed and it is even likely, that the first EF will come only with puls doppler radars. If their radar will be ready only by 2015 and LCA MK2 is slated to make it's first flight in 2014, it will be too late for joint radar developments.
Another very interesting point is the JV between Thales and Samtel for HMDs and IRST, which both could be bases for common parts, or even joint developments for IAF Rafale and LCA MK2.

As you can see, the French offer is by far not less interesting, only because their companies are smaller and regarding the creation of jobs, this was reported from Dassault in the competition in Brazil:



> *Off Set RAFALE*
> 
> The French aerospace consortium Rafale International, one of three finalists for the Brazilian F-X2 program which provides for the sale and supply of up to 36 new fighters of 4th-generation or 4.5 for the Air Force (FAB), which is formed by Dassault Aviation, Snecma and Thales, offered unlimited transferêcia technology fighter Dassault Aviation 'Rafale' offered to the Brazilian Air Force through the following ways...
> 
> ...The offer of transfer of technology offered by Rafale International has proposals for 65 projects in cooperation with 38 organizations / industries Brazilian potential, 30 Memoranda of Understanding signed with Brazilian partners, stating their interest in proposed projects.
> *If approved, the plan of Rafale International will generate 29,000 jobs over a period of 10 years and the manufacturing activities of the Rafale will generate 3,500 direct jobs and 11,500 indirect jobs. *



Google Übersetzer


And that is a competition for 36 up to 100 fighters for the air force + 24 for the navy, so they hardly hit our minimum requirement, what does it tell us about the jobs that could be created in India then?


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## LiberalAtheist

will the LCA MK2 have any of the following? 

higher pay load 
higher max take off weight 
IRST 
more hardpoints ?


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## sancho

Vibs said:


> Not really.What they proposed was to include India in the partnership i.e. the consortium. What that means is that we would be involved in any new developments of the EFT right from conception. Thats always a much better way to learn than from ToT.


 
That's only partly true, because the offer is to team up for further upgrades and mainly to fund them, while the development of these is basically is already done by the current EF consortium companies. Take the TVC as an example, it was offered for India and Tejas, or for EF, but was developed nearly a decade ago and is available as a ground tech demonstrator, but none of the current partners is ready to fund the final integration and testing and that's why they hope India would do it. We would get ToT for sure and might even get the production in India, but that's mainly because lower production costs in India, not because our industry would participate in the development. 
Joint development is indeed more benefical for India, but the EF don't offer that much in this field, especially not much that would benefit the LCA as well, while the French seems to have an advantage here as exlained in the last post.




deathtocorruption said:


> will the LCA MK2 have any of the following?
> 
> higher pay load
> higher max take off weight
> IRST
> more hardpoints ?


 
Yes for the first 2, unclear for the 3rd and unlikely for the last point.


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## dr.crazze

Vibs said:


> Not really.What they proposed was to include India in the partnership i.e. the consortium. What that means is that we would be involved in any new developments of the EFT right from conception. Thats always a much better way to learn than from ToT.



ACTUALLY THATS NOT TRUE FULLY all the members of the consortium may ask for specific upgrades but they have to pay on their own unless there is any other country asking the same with which they can divide the cost in view of Europe getting f 35 it is unlikely that they will ask much as in case with germany hence india may find itself alone in costly upgrades in contary rafale is france's lead plane they have to upgrade it on all means and we getting them on lower costs as we shall be producing it


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## Lord Of Gondor

Tejas picture of the day.
Source-Official Tejas website.
All the 8 weapon stations are clearly visible and the LDP and AAM are also in place.





i do not know whether this image has already been posted.

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## Vibs

crazzze said:


> ACTUALLY THATS NOT TRUE FULLY all the members of the consortium may ask for specific upgrades but they have to pay on their own unless there is any other country asking the same with which they can divide the cost in view of Europe getting f 35 it is unlikely that they will ask much as in case with germany hence india may find itself alone in costly upgrades in contary rafale is france's lead plane they have to upgrade it on all means and we getting them on lower costs as we shall be producing it


 That may be true. But everytime an aircraft is developed,certain technologies are present in the drawing board during the concept stage but excluded as the Europeans did not find it useful or found it too expensive, or it is only with the Soviets.
Even if India has to pay for it, the advantage of customizing the plane right at the concept stage (Like the Sukhoi Pak FA) is immense.


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## Vibs

crazzze said:


> ACTUALLY THATS NOT TRUE FULLY all the members of the consortium may ask for specific upgrades but they have to pay on their own unless there is any other country asking the same with which they can divide the cost in view of Europe getting f 35 it is unlikely that they will ask much as in case with germany hence india may find itself alone in costly upgrades in contary rafale is france's lead plane they have to upgrade it on all means and we getting them on lower costs as we shall be producing it


 That may be true. But everytime an aircraft is developed,certain technologies are present in the drawing board during the concept stage but excluded as the Europeans did not find it useful or found it too expensive, or it is only with the Soviets.
Even if India has to pay for it, the advantage of customizing the plane right at the concept stage (Like the Sukhoi Pak FA) is immense.


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## LiberalAtheist

Bharadwaj said:


> Tejas picture of the day.
> Source-Official Tejas website.
> All the 8 weapon stations are clearly visible and the LDP and AAM are also in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i do not know whether this image has already been posted.


 
i can't wait until LCAMK2 enters service but in this pic i only see 6 hardpoints under the wings


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## Lord Of Gondor

Sidhu-The other two are on the Fuselage before the rear landing gear housing.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/index.html
Awesome website,it also clears the doubt whether the Tejas will have A2A refueling probes or not.

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## sathya

two on the Fuselage looks light weight pylon.. hieght and weight may b the issue in mk1..
we may see heavy load under fuselage in mk2


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## Water Car Engineer

Tejas does a loop


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## gulte

Liquid said:


> Tejas does a loop


 
23 sec .. pretty cool


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## LiberalAtheist

these show the LCA hard points i'm just wondering if there are 8 hard points does that mean the LCA can only take off with 8 AAM's or more? can someone please clarify?


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## MZUBAIR

Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


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## raveolution

GE404IN for the first 40 LCA MK1 already integrated and in production. GE414IN for the MK2 already selected and ordered after competitive bidding.
Officially this just makes you sound illiterate.


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## Jon Snow

MZUBAIR said:


> Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


 
that post is a decade too late.


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## Jon Snow

double post


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## khatarnak gunda

MZUBAIR said:


> Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


 
AND ALL THE LCAs FLYING IN THE SKY FOR TESTING ARE FLYING WITHOUT ENGINE......OFFICIALLY!!!!!!!!!!


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## Vibs

MZUBAIR said:


> Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


 
Umm...ok..then how come this was flying over my building this saturday?






We have gone for a GE404IN engine to fill the gap till the Kaveri engine comes out. The American GE 404-IN engines produce 80 KN at full power. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine (Kaveri)


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## [--Leo--]

Vibs said:


> We have gone for a GE404IN engine to fill the gap till the Kaveri engine comes out. The American GE 404-IN engines produce 80 KN at full power. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine (Kaveri)




Kaveri Engine:

Performance

Maximum thrust:
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)

Watch it for the wrong information of kaveri 

IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 9095 KN" , senior officials told but they don,t have 95 KN service


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## LiberalAtheist

[--Leo--];2005235 said:


> Kaveri Engine:
> 
> Performance
> 
> Maximum thrust:
> Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
> Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)
> 
> Watch it for the wrong information of kaveri
> 
> IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90&#8212;95 KN" , senior officials told but they don,t have 95 KN service


 
that is the KaveriMK1 the Kaveri MK2 or (k10) is being developed with help of France SNECMA to get to thrust of 95-100kn

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## rockstarIN

MZUBAIR said:


> Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


 
What non sense....without engine, it floats in air?


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> Officially, LCA still dont have engine !!!


 
Also when parked in hanger it has no pilot and dont fly.

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## [--Leo--]

PunjabiSidhu said:


> that is the KaveriMK1 the Kaveri MK2 or (k10) is being developed with help of France SNECMA to get to thrust of 95-100kn



Please give me any offical source of Kaveri MK2 that they have developed because i sreach alot but having bad luck only in forum discussion kaveri mk2 has come up with users can,t find a offical source...i,ll be thank full sir


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## [--Leo--]

PunjabiSidhu said:


> that is the KaveriMK1 the Kaveri MK2 or (k10) is being developed with help of France SNECMA to get to thrust of 95-100kn



Please give me any offical source of Kaveri MK2 that they have developed because i sreach alot but having bad luck only in forum discussion kaveri mk2 has come up with users can,t find a offical source...i,ll be thank full sir


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## Vibs

Double Post


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## Vibs

[--Leo--];2005282 said:


> Please give me any offical source of Kaveri MK2 that they have developed because i sreach alot but having bad luck only in forum discussion kaveri mk2 has come up with users can,t find a offical source...i,ll be thank full sir


 
Here's a link 
http://www.lca-tejas.org/engine.html

Gives you a total history of the past,present and future engines.

Heres an official link for the genesis. This does not have the Kaveri mentioned as it is still being developed.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/genesis.html

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## MZUBAIR

LCA dont have an engine - Officially..

Couple of Dozen Engine packs were purchased for testing and prototypes from USA, LCA still flying on those.

USA refused to offer u more.....nither gave u license to manufacure it locally, nor giving u more 

Lets see may be after 2030 some one will give u engine


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## Vibs

MZUBAIR said:


> LCA dont have an engine - Officially..
> 
> Couple of Dozen Engine packs were purchased for testing and prototypes from USA, LCA still flying on those.
> 
> USA refused to offer u more.....nither gave u license to manufacure it locally, nor giving u more
> 
> Lets see may be after 2030 some one will give u engine



Let me make it really simple for you. 
1.Click on the links below. 
2.Read it. 
3.Get enlightened. 
4.Stop trolling.

http://www.lca-tejas.org/engine.html

Tejas - History - Genesis

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## SpArK

*In Parliament: DRDO to sign on Snecma for Kaveri co-dev/prod after current price negotiation. IAF has cleared Kaveri for Tejas Mk.2.*


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## SpArK

So GE414 and snecma???? LCA gonna fly with 3 engine varians like GE404, GE414 and Kaveri-Snecma????


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## RPK

SpArK


GE404 For LCA MK1


GE414 For LCA MK2


Kaveri- Snecma For AMCA


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## SpArK

Ministry of Defence08-August, 2011 18:11 IST

*Kaveri Engine Project*


The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has made no agreement with a French firm to develop the Kaveria aero engine to be used for the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. However, *DRDO is negotiating with M/s Snecma, France for co-development and co-production of Kaveri aero engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas MK-II. The project proposal will be put up for Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval after the completion of price negotiation. *

*Indian Air Force (IAF) has been consulted at every stage and is part of negotiation. IAF has cleared the Kaveri engine co-development proposal with M/s Snecma, France. The draft engine technical specification has been examined and cleared by IAF. IAF has further suggested that the engine design should have minimal impact on the LCA Tejas airframe for future retrofitment. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri A.K. Antony in a written reply to Shri Francisco Sardinha in Lok Sabha today. 

DM/NA 

Press Information Bureau English Releases

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## SpArK

RPK said:


> SpArK
> 
> 
> GE404 For LCA MK1
> 
> 
> GE414 For LCA MK2
> 
> 
> Kaveri- Snecma For AMCA


 
Praveen....... thats why i said LCA... not its mark's...


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## DarK-LorD

I think GEF414 is only for the initial 80-85 Fighters.For the next lot it's going to be Kaveri-Snecma.


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## SpArK

*DRDO-Snecma Tie-up On Kaveri Still In Talks​*







The Indian MoD made the following statement in Parliament today about the Kaveri turbofan engine programme: "The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has made no agreement with a French firm to develop the Kaveri aero engine to be used for the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. However, *DRDO is negotiating with M/s Snecma, France for co-development and co-production of Kaveri aero engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk.2.* The project proposal will be put up for Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval after the completion of price negotiation. Indian Air Force (IAF) has been consulted at every stage and is part of negotiation. IAF has cleared the Kaveri engine co-development proposal with M/s Snecma, France. The draft engine technical specification has been examined and cleared by IAF. *IAF has further suggested that the engine design should have minimal impact on the LCA Tejas airframe for future retrofitment." *

In September last year, *the DRDO/ADA officially announced that they had chosen the GE F414 engine to power the Tejas Mk.2. GE later announced that they would be supplying 99 engines to the Mk.2 effort. In January this year, the IAF revealed that it had projected a need for 83 Tejas fighters in the Mk.2 configuration. As things stand, the Kaveri is officially de-linked from the Tejas programme, and is aimed at the AMCA effort and India's classified AURA stealth UCAV programme.*

Livefist: DRDO-Snecma Tie-up On Kaveri Still In Talks

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## jha



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## rockstarIN

Delays delays . . . .


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## Vibs

'The Tejas Story' is not an easy read - Books - Book Reviews - ibnlive
This is a three year old book - but I got my hands on it quite recently. So please pardon the delay, if you're already familiar with the title. Personally, I was fascinated simply because it's about India's very own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. Today, it goes by the name Tejas.
It's not an easy read. It's a very slim volume but took me a week to complete. Mainly because there's so much technical detail. Abbreviation after abbreviation on page after page - so by the time you reach the middle of the book, you're flipping back to check what the earlier abbreviations really stood for. Somehow, I got the feeling the book could have been simplified a lot.
It's an account of the plane's development project through one man's eyes. Air Marshal Rajkumar was head of the plane's flight test programme for over nine years, from 1994 to 2003.




His team of pilots took the plane into the air, when no one was sure it wouldn't crash right back. When it was a bundle of nuts and bolts, made by a country that hadn't even designed an automobile on its own, much less a fighter plane.
So yes, his department was vital, crucial, to the success of the plane. But leafing through the pages I was first surprised, then hugely disappointed that there's very little mention of Dr Kota Harinarayan, the man who designed the plane and spearheaded the project.
For a book about a machine so iconic, so crucial to India's future success in military avionics, I'd have expected it to give me a bird's eye view, the entire history of the project. "The Tejas Story" doesn't do that. It's the story through Rajkumar's eyes. About how he and his team contributed to the project, not about how everyone built the plane together, with blood, sweat and tears.
Nevertheless, the book is still a treasure trove of data. For folks like us, whose only experience of flight is city hopping on a jumbo jet, it's an eye opener into the myriad tools and procedures that go into making a plane what it is.
The number of companies that collaborate on a new project. The number of people in whose hands the life of a pilot rests. The amount of bureaucracy and layers of authority all permissions have to go through. The unimaginable number of years it takes to get a new plane of the ground (The LCA project was first conceived in 1974, yet it first flew only in 2001!)
You learn about pitch and yaw, about flight dynamics that make a plane fly the way it does. About decisions that seem inordinately simple but which completely alter the design of a plane and the amount of money, research and time it needs to fly.
You learn about politics - how Lockheed Martin kicked out our engineers and shut down access to the flight software we'd built for the Tejas, as soon as the US announced sanctions against India for the Pokhran nuclear tests.
There's also the drama, the incomprehensible tension. Apparently, during the first flight of the very first prototype of the Tejas, control rooms on the ground received highly abnormal signals seconds after the plane took off.
The pilot insisted his craft was ok and managed a picture perfect landing. Later, they found that a local software technology park in Bangalore was broadcasting commercial signals on the very frequency that the LCA's sensors used to talk to the control room. An innocent mistake perhaps, but one that almost doomed India's most ambitious military programme.
There's also mention about ego clashes, organisational differences. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL, the country's main aircraft development agency, had serious differences with the Aeronautical Development Agency or ADA, that was specially set up to design the Light combat aircraft.
"The problem was the attitude of the corporate management of HAL. Under Chairman RN Sharma, the LCA programme was given step-motherly treatment. Till he retired (in 1997), things did not change," the book says.
Another setback for the programme was when the government gave the go ahead for developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT). The same group of 100 odd people working on the LCA project had to work for the IJT also. There was a division of labour.
Inspite of all these setbacks the Light Combat Aircraft or the Tejas as it is now called, has taken to the air. The world now knows India can make a cutting edge fighter plane. Read this book, to get a taste of how complicated, how uncertain the journey was.
Don't read it for the writing. A professional editor would probably have raised its quality by many notches. But read it for the adventure, for a peek into a world most of us never see.
Title: The Tejas Story; Author: Philip Rajkumar; Publisher: Manohar Publishers And Distributors; Price: Rs 525

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> So GE414 and snecma???? LCA gonna fly with 3 engine varians like GE404, GE414 and Kaveri-Snecma????


 
Yes, as I expected the GE 414 was just procured as a stop gap solution, which can be integrated and produced easily and at low costs. The long term perspective is Kaveri - Snecma engine, for additional LCA MK2s be it for IAF, IN, or exports, also for the MK1 and early MK2 that might get it during MLU. A freaking mess caused by the mistakes and failures in the LCA project, bad planing and overestimation of indigenous developmed radar and engines!


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## sathya

atleast this deal should have been done on time.. why so late ?


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## sancho

sathya said:


> atleast this deal should have been done on time.. why so late ?


 
There were reports that IAF would have prefered an improved Kaveri engine, without foreign participation, but by the fact that even GTRE favoured the co-development should make clear where we are in the engine (or radar) development field. They totally overestimated our capabilities in these fields and now LCA suffers more and more delays, which makes it kind of questionable on what basis they want to start AMCA development now.

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## satishkumarcsc

Vibs said:


> 'The Tejas Story' is not an easy read - Books - Book Reviews - ibnlive
> This is a three year old book - but I got my hands on it quite recently. So please pardon the delay, if you're already familiar with the title. Personally, I was fascinated simply because it's about India's very own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. Today, it goes by the name Tejas.
> It's not an easy read. It's a very slim volume but took me a week to complete. Mainly because there's so much technical detail. Abbreviation after abbreviation on page after page - so by the time you reach the middle of the book, you're flipping back to check what the earlier abbreviations really stood for. Somehow, I got the feeling the book could have been simplified a lot.
> It's an account of the plane's development project through one man's eyes. Air Marshal Rajkumar was head of the plane's flight test programme for over nine years, from 1994 to 2003.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His team of pilots took the plane into the air, when no one was sure it wouldn't crash right back. When it was a bundle of nuts and bolts, made by a country that hadn't even designed an automobile on its own, much less a fighter plane.
> So yes, his department was vital, crucial, to the success of the plane. But leafing through the pages I was first surprised, then hugely disappointed that there's very little mention of Dr Kota Harinarayan, the man who designed the plane and spearheaded the project.
> For a book about a machine so iconic, so crucial to India's future success in military avionics, I'd have expected it to give me a bird's eye view, the entire history of the project. "The Tejas Story" doesn't do that. It's the story through Rajkumar's eyes. About how he and his team contributed to the project, not about how everyone built the plane together, with blood, sweat and tears.
> Nevertheless, the book is still a treasure trove of data. For folks like us, whose only experience of flight is city hopping on a jumbo jet, it's an eye opener into the myriad tools and procedures that go into making a plane what it is.
> The number of companies that collaborate on a new project. The number of people in whose hands the life of a pilot rests. The amount of bureaucracy and layers of authority all permissions have to go through. The unimaginable number of years it takes to get a new plane of the ground (The LCA project was first conceived in 1974, yet it first flew only in 2001!)
> You learn about pitch and yaw, about flight dynamics that make a plane fly the way it does. About decisions that seem inordinately simple but which completely alter the design of a plane and the amount of money, research and time it needs to fly.
> You learn about politics - how Lockheed Martin kicked out our engineers and shut down access to the flight software we'd built for the Tejas, as soon as the US announced sanctions against India for the Pokhran nuclear tests.
> There's also the drama, the incomprehensible tension. Apparently, during the first flight of the very first prototype of the Tejas, control rooms on the ground received highly abnormal signals seconds after the plane took off.
> The pilot insisted his craft was ok and managed a picture perfect landing. Later, they found that a local software technology park in Bangalore was broadcasting commercial signals on the very frequency that the LCA's sensors used to talk to the control room. An innocent mistake perhaps, but one that almost doomed India's most ambitious military programme.
> There's also mention about ego clashes, organisational differences. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL, the country's main aircraft development agency, had serious differences with the Aeronautical Development Agency or ADA, that was specially set up to design the Light combat aircraft.
> "The problem was the attitude of the corporate management of HAL. Under Chairman RN Sharma, the LCA programme was given step-motherly treatment. Till he retired (in 1997), things did not change," the book says.
> Another setback for the programme was when the government gave the go ahead for developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT). The same group of 100 odd people working on the LCA project had to work for the IJT also. There was a division of labour.
> Inspite of all these setbacks the Light Combat Aircraft or the Tejas as it is now called, has taken to the air. The world now knows India can make a cutting edge fighter plane. Read this book, to get a taste of how complicated, how uncertain the journey was.
> Don't read it for the writing. A professional editor would probably have raised its quality by many notches. But read it for the adventure, for a peek into a world most of us never see.
> Title: The Tejas Story; Author: Philip Rajkumar; Publisher: Manohar Publishers And Distributors; Price: Rs 525


 
Try Famous Russian aircraft Su 27 by Yefim Gordon. It will make you an aviation expert by the time you finish the book. And will also show you how radical the design of the Su 27 really is.

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## DarK-LorD

DIAT system soon to monitor in-flight health of Tejas Mk-II.
Posted: Sat Aug 13 2011, 02:03 hrs Pune:

Scientist at the Defence Institute of Advance Technology (DIA), Khadakwasla, are working on a system to monitor the health of DRDO&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II.

Replying to a question on the backdrop of the recent Jaguar and Mig-21 aircrashes, Dr Prahlada, newly-appointed Vice-Chancellor of DIAT, said the deemed university has been working on designing health monitoring and transmission system for the aircraft that may be deployed in the Mk- II varient of LCA Tejas. &#8220;The system continuously monitors the health of the aircraft while in flight and keeps sending the data to ground. Thus, the ground staff is aware of the condition of the aircraft even before it lands. The system has been designed and we will be submitting the project to Aeronautical Development Agency . The software and the system would be submitted once they give a nod. It will take us about a year to give the complete solution,&#8221; he said. Dr Prahlada was addressing reporters after taking charge recently. &#8220;In the next two years, DIAT will be developed into a military centre on the lines of Naval Postgraduate School , US,&#8221; he said.


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## Vibs

Anyone else from Bangalore over here? The LCA has been making rounds continuously every afternoon since Monday. Since it's during office hours I'm able to glimpse it from my window but am unable to take pics or videos. I've never seen it fly so frequently. Has anyone managed to get any pics or inside news?

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## Lord Of Gondor

I'm guessing that these are LSP3 and LSP5 as they are ones that have the most amount of flying hours..................................Cant wait to see LSP6&7


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## rockstarIN

I was in blore for 2 yrs but I only got a glimpse once, a vertical climb....you are lucky guys..


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## Black Widow

Vibs said:


> Anyone else from Bangalore over here? The LCA has been making rounds continuously every afternoon since Monday. Since it's during office hours I'm able to glimpse it from my window but am unable to take pics or videos. I've never seen it fly so frequently. Has anyone managed to get any pics or inside news?



I spend my afternoon at office, so couldn't see anything. 3 week ago I saw one LCA flight (It was saturday evening.) I will try to see now..


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## Vibs

Black Widow said:


> I spend my afternoon at office, so couldn't see anything. 3 week ago I saw one LCA flight (It was saturday evening.) I will try to see now..


I guess I'm lucky to have my house and office in HAL 2nd stage near the old airport. It stopped around 30 minutes ago. Maybe it'll continue tomorrow too.


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## blackops

Was in b'lore sum times back and saw it 2-3 times ot looks so cute also saw dhruv


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## my2cents

I have basic question, so somebody enlighten me. If we were to design LCA with twin engine would it not improve the thrust factor and make it an awesome machine. According to your discussion right now Kaveri engine provides only 80 kN thrust, so with two engines it should increase substantially.


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## Vibs

my2cents said:


> I have basic question, so somebody enlighten me. If we were to design LCA with twin engine would it not improve the thrust factor and make it an awesome machine. According to your discussion right now Kaveri engine provides only 80 kN thrust, so with two engines it should increase substantially.


You cannot just change an aircraft into a twin engine one. The designs for the air frame are drawn at the very start of the process and it is at this point itself that the engine configuration is decided. After decades of perfecting models and wind tunnel tests you have pretty much moved way beyond the point of making major changes to the airframe.

Besides, it's a "Light" combat aircraft. It wouldn't remain one with 2 engines.


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## Black Widow

Vibs said:


> I guess I'm lucky to have my house and office in HAL 2nd stage near the old airport. It stopped around 30 minutes ago. Maybe it'll continue tomorrow too.



I stay at Doddenekundi (1 miles form Airport strip) , My office is near Leela palace.. I see dhruv daily while on the way to office.. 

Take some video of LCA...  and share it..


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## Dash

Black Widow said:


> I stay at Doddenekundi (1 miles form Airport strip) , My office is near Leela palace.. I see dhruv daily while on the way to office..
> 
> Take some video of LCA...  and share it..



PLs take yaar, I wish I could stay that close to HAL, I saty far but its raining in Bangalore and LCA is always above clouds, so difficult to take any pictures.


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## Vibs

Dash said:


> PLs take yaar, I wish I could stay that close to HAL, I saty far but its raining in Bangalore and LCA is always above clouds, so difficult to take any pictures.


Actually when it does sorties, it always dips near the HAL airstrip before climbing again. That's when you can see it.

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------




Black Widow said:


> I stay at Doddenekundi (1 miles form Airport strip) , My office is near Leela palace.. I see dhruv daily while on the way to office..
> 
> Take some video of LCA...  and share it..


Did it once before from HSR but camera quality was bad. Will try again.

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## rockstarIN

^^^thats cool, thanks and keep posting more..


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## saumyasupratik

Vibs said:


> You cannot just change an aircraft into a twin engine one. The designs for the air frame are drawn at the very start of the process and it is at this point itself that the engine configuration is decided. After decades of perfecting models and wind tunnel tests you have pretty much moved way beyond the point of making major changes to the airframe.
> 
> Besides, it's a "Light" combat aircraft. It wouldn't remain one with 2 engines.



Correct, although I would love to see a twin engined Tejas in the 20-22 Tonne MTOW category.


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## HZR2011

Vibs said:


> Anyone else from Bangalore over here? The LCA has been making rounds continuously every afternoon since Monday. Since it's during office hours I'm able to glimpse it from my window but am unable to take pics or videos. I've never seen it fly so frequently. Has anyone managed to get any pics or inside news?


Me too from Bangalore..and a kannadiga 
Have seen it many times....and saw Dhruv flying very low...


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## LiberalAtheist

LCA AESA radar should be jointly developed with DRDO and ELTA, the EL/2052 would be a good radar for the LCAMK2 prototypes until the Indian AESA radar is developed


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## WHITESMOKE

satishkumarcsc said:


> Try Famous Russian aircraft Su 27 by Yefim Gordon. It will make you an aviation expert by the time you finish the book. And will also show you how radical the design of the Su 27 really is.


Nice to know, could you tell me please from where to buy and how much it will cost?


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## Lord Of Gondor

WHITESMOKE said:


> Nice to know, could you tell me please from where to buy and how much it will cost?


Try Flipkart(dot)com.Price is 683INR and you get free home delivery(If you are back home)
Yefim gordon : Buy in India @ Flipkart.com

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## satishkumarcsc

WHITESMOKE said:


> Nice to know, could you tell me please from where to buy and how much it will cost?



You get it in Lanmark

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## WHITESMOKE

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Try Flipkart(dot)com.Price is 683INR and you get free home delivery(If you are back home)
> Yefim gordon : Buy in India @ Flipkart.com



Thanx for the information


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## angeldemon_007

*FGFA with LCA*

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## acetophenol

the parachute system deployed as speed breaker in tejas,how is it made back into the aircraft?


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## sudhir007




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## rockstarIN

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1670 Test Flights successfully. (25-Aug-2011). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-206,PV3-291,LSP1-67,LSP2-175,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-38,LSP5-35) 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1667 Test Flights successfully. (10-Aug-2011) 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-291,LSP1-67,LSP2-175,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-34)


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## Roybot

Any updates on LSP-7?


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## SpArK

Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North: India Today

Though the bulky cargo went missing in December 2008 from London's Heathrow Airport after it was loaded onto an aircraft in the US, the government, surprisingly, is still clueless on its whereabouts.* The consignment contained 15 actuators - devices that control the flow of material or power and which are a part of the integrated flight control system (IFCS) and line replaceable units (LRUs).*

It was airlifted by a British Airways plane from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York on December 22, 2008. The aircraft was headed for Heathrow Airport, from where it was supposed to come to India and land at the doorstep of LCA manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is likely to face embarrassment because the serious breach of security and the resultant financial loss is now on the Comptroller and Auditor General's (CAG) radar, sources in the defence ministry said.
A laboratory of the DRDO, the Aeronautical Development Establishment ( ADE), entered into a contract with BAE Systems Overseas Inc for the supply of 15 ship sets of IFCS and LRUs for the LCA at a total cost of more than $ 30 million, which works out to Rs. 135 crore.

*While 14 containers reached HAL safely, the last consignment of actuators - 15 pieces, each weighing around 200 kg and valued at more than ` 10 crore - went missing, government sources revealed.
*
It is alleged that the DRDO did not insure the consignment - a contravention of the defence purchase regulation - owing to which the defence ministry was not in a position to claim damages for the missing parts, a government source said. The Purchase Management Procedure of 2006 clearly states that goods costing Rs. 2.5 crore and above should be insured against loss or damage in transit. It stipulates that the insurance cover must be obtained before the consignment is dispatched by the supplier.

BAE Systems was supposed to deliver all the components for the LCA by March 2009. A senior DRDO official conceded that a consignment meant for the LCA, which is still undergoing pre-induction tests, was lost in transit and led to a financial loss. When asked why the DRDO did not seek insurance cover, the official, however, said: "The DRDO or its laboratory and officials cawnnot be blamed for whatever happened and the LCA production work continues without delay." Internal inquiries showed that the ADE shifted the blame to the freight clearing agents, suggesting that they did not advise them to opt for insurance cover.

When the shipment was lost, sources said, the defence ministry had requested the US government to inquire and possibly trace the container through diplomatic channels. The FBI did conduct a probe in America as well as London, but could not crack the case.

The DRDO has not been able to buy that equipment for the LCA since the episode, adding to glitches which the fleet's rollout has been facing. It is not known whether the DRDO conducted an internal inquiry and fixed responsibility on officials for the serious lapses.
The air force has ordered 40 Tejas Mark-I aircrafts, with two such planes expected to be ready for induction by March 2012. A total of Rs. 5,777 crore was sanctioned to the IAF for the development of Tejas.


Read more at: Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North: India Today


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## marcos98

old but cool......

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## LiberalAtheist

IAF has ordered 48 LCAMK1 but the real deal is the MK2 which IAF will order (180-220) aircrafts what will happen to the MK1's then? will they be upgraded to MK2 standard as well or be used as lead in trainers for the MK2 pilots?


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## Lord Of Gondor

PunjabiSidhu said:


> IAF has ordered 48 LCAMK1 but the real deal is the MK2 which IAF will order (180-220) aircrafts what will happen to the MK1's then? *will they be upgraded to MK2 standar**d* as well or be used as lead in trainers for the MK2 pilots?


@the bolded part-Not possible as the Engines are Different and the Mark2 Tejas will have it's fuselage stretched by 0.5 Meter(according to officials @ AI'11 and 1 Meter according to BR members).The mark-2 will also incorporate significant design changes that decreases drag.
I am also confused about the numbers of Tejas Mark2 aircrafts that are to be inducted as the Deal signed with GE was for 99 F414 Engines(+possibility of some more).Now if we assume that the Mark2 will follow the Tejas Mark1 evolution(which it will),then there will be a minimum of 6-10 prototypes so I think that the *initial* IAF order will be for around 80-89 Tejas Mark2 aircrafts


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## rockstarIN

Lord Of Gondor said:


> @the bolded part-Not possible as the Engines are Different and the Mark2 Tejas will have it's fuselage stretched by 0.5 Meter(according to officials @ AI'11 and 1 Meter according to BR members).The mark-2 will also incorporate significant design changes that decreases drag.
> I am also confused about the numbers of Tejas Mark2 aircrafts that are to be inducted as the Deal signed with GE was for 99 F414 Engines(+possibility of some more).Now if we assume that the Mark2 will follow the Tejas Mark1 evolution(which it will),then there will be a minimum of 6-10 prototypes so I think that the *initial* IAF order will be for around 80-89 Tejas Mark2 aircrafts



They can order in due course if they really want more engines any time from GE.

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## LiberalAtheist

Lord Of Gondor said:


> @the bolded part-Not possible as the Engines are Different and the Mark2 Tejas will have it's fuselage stretched by 0.5 Meter(according to officials @ AI'11 and 1 Meter according to BR members).The mark-2 will also incorporate significant design changes that decreases drag.
> I am also confused about the numbers of Tejas Mark2 aircrafts that are to be inducted as the Deal signed with GE was for 99 F414 Engines(+possibility of some more).Now if we assume that the Mark2 will follow the Tejas Mark1 evolution(which it will),then there will be a minimum of 6-10 prototypes so I think that the *initial* IAF order will be for around 80-89 Tejas Mark2 aircrafts



no the IAF will have 200 LCA's the majority being MK2 the rest being MK1 (possibly used as conversion trainer) while the IN will order around 50 as well the GEF414 engine will power the LCAMK2 however when the GEF414's engines need to be replaced the Kaveri K10 being jointly developed with SNECMA will be the engine for the LCA MK1 and MK2

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## sancho

Lord Of Gondor said:


> @the bolded part-Not possible as the Engines are Different and the Mark2 Tejas will have it's fuselage stretched by 0.5 Meter(according to officials @ AI'11 and 1 Meter according to BR members).The mark-2 will also incorporate significant design changes that decreases drag.
> I am also confused about the numbers of Tejas Mark2 aircrafts that are to be inducted as the Deal signed with GE was for 99 F414 Engines(+possibility of some more).Now if we assume that the Mark2 will follow the Tejas Mark1 evolution(which it will),then there will be a minimum of 6-10 prototypes so I think that the *initial* IAF order will be for around 80-89 Tejas Mark2 aircrafts



The MK1s can be upgraded to MK2 level, at least to some extend! They might get AESA radar, new avionics and even the upgraded Kaveri engine is planned for the MLU. What might not be integrated is the increased internal fuel, because that's what the airframe changes are meant for mainly.
The ordered numbers of GE 414 is 107, but not all of them will be used for operational fighters, but like you said for prototypes and not to forget for INs orders of N-LCA as well. From some statements of Air Chief Naik, we can assume that besides the 2 x MK1 squads, we will see at least 5, possibly up to 7 x MK2 squads (total of 180 fighters).

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## rockstarIN

Since the K-10 deal yet to be formalised, will it be ready for MLU?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Since the K-10 deal yet to be formalised, will it be ready for MLU?



The induction of LCA MK1 is planned for the end of next year, which puts the MLU between 2027 and 2032, so more than enough time even for us. 
In the meantime I guess Kaveri K10 will be used for the MK2s as well, at least for follow orders of Indian forces and possibly for exports.


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## LiberalAtheist

^^^^ by that time (2027) the Kaveri would be ready and powering the production version of the AMCA btw is it true Kaveri MK2 will have 100kn of thrust with afterburner and be fitted with a stealth nozzle to lower IR signature?


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## sancho

PunjabiSidhu said:


> ^^^^ by that time (2027) the Kaveri would be ready and powering the production version of the AMCA btw is it true Kaveri MK2 will have 100kn of thrust with afterburner and be fitted with a stealth nozzle to lower IR signature?



"Around" 100kN is speculated, but the normal GE 414 in the F18SH has 98kN, the version in Gripen NG only 96kN and so far there are no official specs. TVC is not part of the package, but it might be added to Kaveri K10, which then could be used on LCA too.


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## LiberalAtheist

sancho said:


> "Around" 100kN is speculated, but the normal GE 414 in the F18SH has 98kN, the version in Gripen NG only 96kN and so far there are no official specs. TVC is not part of the package, but it might be added to Kaveri K10, which then could be used on LCA too.



the AMCA will have TVC and be powered by a Kaveri engine so the Kaveri will have TVC i am just wondering if it could be feasible to get a TW ratio of 1 with full load on the LCA


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## sancho

PunjabiSidhu said:


> the AMCA will have TVC and be powered by a Kaveri engine so the Kaveri will have TVC i am just wondering if it could be feasible to get a TW ratio of 1 with full load on the LCA



TWRs are mainly calculated with AB thrust and clean, while the fighters normally fly with dry thrust and when you then add external loads, it should be clear that the TWR will be much lower.


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## southpaw

Any news on when the latest LSP will fly? weapon trials?
Also any news on Kaveri? 

Thanks in advance !


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## khatarnak gunda

southpaw said:


> Any news on when the latest LSP will fly? weapon trials?
> Also any news on Kaveri?
> 
> Thanks in advance !



HERE YOU GO.....



The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme is *expected to see a series of maiden flights in the next few months.Three aircraft from the LCA stable, the Limited Series Production (LSP-7 and LSP-8) and the naval variant of the aircraft, Naval Prototype-1 (NP-1) will take to the skies.*The three variants, which were to be flight-tested earlier this year, have not been able to meet the deadlines due to technical reasons, incessant rains and a change at helm at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), which oversees all flight-tests related activities of LCA programme.

Sources involved in the programme said that the LSP-7 and LSP-8, which will eventually enter squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF), would be flown separately followed by the NP-1.

The aircraft have been subjected to a series of tests which are mandatory before the first flight. sources said.

The LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be the twelfth and thirteenth aircraft of the LCA programme and would be almost the final version of the aircraft after it enters service.

Under the LCA programme, two Technology Demonstrators (TDs), five Prototype Vehicles (PVs), eight LSPs have been developed and 1,671 flights have been conducted so far since the first flight on January 4, 2001.

The LCA is expected to replace the ageing MiG-21s and to start with, the IAF would raise two squadrons.

Similarly, under the Navys programme, apart from the NP-1 another single seat aircraft NP-2 will be developed.

The LCA (Navy) will replace the depleting Sea Harrier squadron and operate along the MiG29 Ks by 2014. The Navy has placed an initial order for six LCAaircraft.


Light Combat Aircraft naval variant may take maiden flight in 2 months | idrw.org


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## rockstarIN

So thats final with in two months LSP-7 & LSP-8 will be fly and most probably will be the first jets to induct to squadron level..

By the way is there any change in radar-weapon combo? its modified version of EL/2032 + Derby/R-73


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## rockstarIN

*Over 300 Su-30s, Tejas LCAs to be inducted into IAF*



> NEW DELHI (PTI): India will procure over 300 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jets and Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) at a total cost of Rs 64,408 crore to strengthen the combat capability of the Indian Air Force, the Government has said.
> 
> Replying to a question on procurement of combat aircraft in the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday, Defence Minister A K Antony said, &#8220;Su-30 MKI aircraft and Tejas LCA are the major modern combat aircraft that have been contracted for induction into the Indian Air Force.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;The total cost of procurement of Su-30 MKI is over Rs 55,717 crore while *the cost of procurement of Tejas LCA is about Rs 8,691 crore,&#8221; he added.*
> 
> The Minister informed the House that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is already manufacturing the Su-30 MKI aircraft as well as Tejas LCA for the IAF.
> 
> &#8220;Further, HAL would also eventually be manufacturing the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) planned for further induction into the IAF,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Replying to a question on submarine fleet of the Indian Navy, Antony said, &#8220;A programme for construction of six submarines is currently underway at Mazagaon Docks Limited. Acceptance of Necessity for acquisition of another six submarines has also been accorded by the Defence Acquisition Council.&#8221;
> 
> To a query on upgradation of harbour protection system, Antony said, &#8220;Indian Navy has detailed security plan for its bases which is constantly reviewed in the light of threat perception.&#8221;
> 
> Procurement and upgradation of naval assets including coastal anti-submarine vessel is an ongoing process depending upon threat perception and naval requirements, the Minister said.



8691 Crore for LCA = 86910 million = (86910/45) = $1931million

1931 ml / 35 ml (average cost of one LCA) = 55 LCAs.


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## jha

*Tejas set to bomb Pokhran & Chandan Ranges*



> Much ahead of India's Festival of Lights -- Diwali -- India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is all set to do carpet bombing in Rajasthan! A high-profile team of engineers, test pilots, scientists and ground crew from ADA, HAL, NFTC and IAF have already touched down at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan for the light and sound show.





> PV3, LSP-1, LSP-2, Slp-3 and LSP-5 (five platforms from the flight line) have already reached Jaisalmer after a brief stopover at Ozhar Air Force base in Nasik for refueling. "The crucial weapons trials are all set to begin now. We are planning to drop 1000 pounds and 400 pounds bombs at Chandan and Pokhran Ranges," say sources.


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## rockstarIN

Thats good... i think next will be BVR testing


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## amit gupta

hello dear friends this is my first post hope you pepole will exept me


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## jha

rockstar said:


> Thats good... i think next will be BVR testing



One prototype is being readied for Electronic attack and counter attack ala Growler..

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------




amit gupta said:


> hello dear friends this is my first post hope you pepole will exept me



We _accept_ you with open arms...


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> One prototype is being readied for Electronic attack and counter attack ala Growler..
> 
> .




Which prototype?


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## jha

rockstar said:


> Which prototype?



LCA Prototype Vehicle-1 (PV1) is taking on some electronic warfare (EW) features ..

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## Jon Snow

The Hindu : Today's Paper / NATIONAL : Key Tejas weapon trials begin in Jaisalmer

A crucial round of armament trials of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has just begun in Jaisalmer. Close on its heels, a second round of trials will take place in Goa next month.

Four Tejas aircraft &#8212; the Prototype Vehicle-3 (PV3) besides Limited-Series-Production (LSP) aircraft 2, 4 and 5 &#8212; have reached Jaisalmer to conduct a series of target-firing of laser-guided bombs. While three aircraft will fire munitions, one will be on standby. *&#8220;The LCA will, for the first time, precision-fire 1,000 kg bombs at designated stationary ground targets using its laser designator pod for target acquisition. In all, 18 such bombs would be fired by these aircraft as part of the trials, aiming to hit targets in a one metre radius. It is, therefore, a significant trial for the aircraft,&#8221; a top source told The Hindu .*

The Jaisalmer phase of the trial, expected to be over by the end of this month, will also have LCA pilots practising release of 25-pound dummy bombs. The weapon trials are conducted by test pilots of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), Bangalore.

*During the second phase of the weapon trials, slated to begin by mid-October at the naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa, Vympel R-73 air-to-air close combat missile will be test-fired from a Tejas aircraft. Coming up for the LCA after the weapon trials will be a swift hot-and-cold weather trial in which an aircraft taking off from Jaisalmer will fly straight to Leh, where it will have a series of flight trials.* &#8220;It is likely to take place by November-end or in the first week of December,&#8221; the source said.

*While the sixth Limited Series Production (LSP-6) aircraft, designed with special features, continues to strive to attain a high angle of attack*, indicating the aircraft's agility,* LCA Prototype Vehicle-1 (PV1) is taking on some electronic warfare (EW) features.*

&#8220;At the moment, there is a lot of wiring going into the aircraft. Once ready, it will be flown to the Air Force Station in Gwalior, where its electronic warfare mettle would be tested,&#8221; said the source.

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## Raje amar

jha said:


> LCA Prototype Vehicle-1 (PV1) is taking on some electronic warfare (EW) features ..



Any links?


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## Jon Snow

When will BVR trials take place?? we already have the derby missile... and why are we using R 73 instead of the python 5 - isnt the R 73 a bit outdated as compared to the latter??

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------




Raje amar said:


> Any links?


The Hindu : Today's Paper / NATIONAL : Key Tejas weapon trials begin in Jaisalmer


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## rockstarIN

P-5 as well as R-73 are deadly..


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## RPK

*Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: It's raining bombs in Pokhran! Tejas drops LGBs*

It's official. It's raining bombs in Pokhran! Three test platforms from the Tejas flight-line -- LSP-2, LSP-5 and PV-3 -- is scripting a new chapter in India's light combat aircraft program. As reported by Tarmak007 earlier, the crucial weapon trails of Tejas are currently underway at the Chandan and Pokhran ranges of Rajasthan. Sources confirm that 10-12 sorties have been completed so far. Pick of these fire-works were the dropping of laser-guided bombs (LGBs), which according to sources was demonstrated by Tejas as per the plan.
"The practice bombing sorties gave good results. We are here till the month-end. Now, we have lined-up crucial drop-tank jettison tests. This included the trials of empty, partially-full and full drop-tank tests. It is a time-consuming exercise. Yesterday we had 2 sorties of empty jettison and practice bombing sessions. We dropped 1000 pounds, 400 pounds and even 25 pounds bombs. LGBs were also released," a senior official, part of the 200-strong contingent said.
Sources claim that the initial results of these weapon trials were "'really encouraging'' and the team will soon start analyzing the inputs. "Once we get the complete data, then we will be able to map all the profiles of these trials. Remember that these are extremely critical ones as we are currently undertaking the missions at various modes, different altitudes and at differing Mach numbers,"the official said.
Team Tejas will have to complete their missions at the allotted slots and hence the role of time-keepers and planners become critical. "The range has heavy traffic owing to other trials by various agencies. It is a huge challenge to perform these missions at clock-like precision," the official said.
Sources confirm that one mobile telemetry has been already positioned at Jaisalmer, while another is at the Ozar Air Base in Nasik. Back-up equipment, additional ground crew and support platforms (LSP-3, LSP-4) are also put on a stand-by.

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## sudhir007

LCA Tejas undergoes weapons trials - Brahmand.com

In a key step towards attaining final operational clearance (FOC) from the IAF, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is undergoing weapons trials, including firing air-to-air missiles to test its capability to bring down enemy planes.

As part of its first phase trials to fire bombs and missiles, Tejas underwent tests of its aerial skills a few days ago at a Jaisalmer range in Rajasthan.

The tests will continue till the end of this month during which the indigenously developed fighter plane will fire laser-guided bombs. A series of tests will be held in different conditions, DRDO officials said here Friday.

This is part of the development trials of the LCA Tejas for the purpose of FOC. More such trials will take place in coming months, they said.

The aircraft was inducted into the IAF in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration in January this year.

Following successful trials and necessary changes in its configuration, LCA Tejas is expected to get the FOC by Dec 2012.

Before attaining the FOC, the aircraft will be subjected to intensive weapons trials at several locations, including mountainous regions of Leh.

By 2014, a total of seven squadrons (over 120 aircraft) of the advanced version of the fighter aircraft, LCA MK-II with upgraded system and capabilities would be inducted into the IAF.

As part of its plans, IAF will rely on a mix of Su-30 MKI, 126 Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and the indigenous LCA as its combat assets by the end of this decade.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Some of the best air to air shots of PV's









Are the missiles R73's(?) or smoke winders(?) or any other?!
This is probably on it's maiden flight

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## sancho

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Are the missiles R73's(?) or smoke winders(?) or any other?!



Interesting, looks like R-60 and R-73:






R-60 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







R-73 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Smokewinders:

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## sudhir007

Upgraded Tejas to take off in 3 years - The Times of India

An upgraded version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be ready to take off within three years.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), along with the Central Scientific Instruments Organization (CSIO), Chandigarh, is working on the project. Tejas' aircraft technology will put India on the fifth spot after the US, France, Russia and UK.

This was disclosed by additional general manager of HAL, Bangalore, K P Singh, who visited the CSIO laboratory on the occasion of the CSIR foundation day on Monday.

Tejas LCA has a HUD (head up display) which was developed at the CSIO at the start of the year. It has unmatchable brightness on the display board. "We will provide HUD for the upgraded version which will have better range accuracy and will be lighter as compared to the existing one. At present, we have HUD weighing 18kg," said Dr Pawan Kapur, director CSIO.

The improvised version is being devised for the Indian Navy. According to official sources, there is a requirement of over 100 such HUDs for Tejas. "Already, we have provided 36 and 90 more are in the production line," said an official at the CSIO.

Talking about the plan, Singh said, "We have been working with CSIO on LCA and intermediate jet trainer aircraft."

Though HAL is the only supplier of Tejas to the Indian defence forces, catching up with the international competitors has not been easy. "We cannot afford to lose time. There are gaps in the system which slows down the pace of technology. Though red tapism has decreased to some extent, it still exists," said Singh.

The CSIO is working on Mark 2 for intermediate jet trainer aircraft where the weight of the HUD will be 11.8kg.


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## ganimi kawa

*LCA NP-1 gears up for maiden flight; first EGR completed successfully*



*The naval prototype (NP-1) of the light combat aircraft (LCA) did the first engine ground run (EGR) successfully. *According to sources, the first EGR was conducted on September 26 at about 6.30 pm. Tests like engine integration, activation of the various systems like flight control, hydraulics, fuel, electrical and avionics were done successfully. 

*The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials, before its first flight shortly, sources said.*


The NP-I had its roll-out on July 6, 2010 and Team ADA promised Antony that the first flight would take place before December 31, 2010. Earlier, in an interview to this blogger, ADA chief P.S. Subramanyam had said that "tech challenges are delaying" the first flight of NP-1.
The fact that DRDO chose to officially inform the media about a significant development related to NP-1 clearly show the levels of enthusiasm the program is generating within.





ABOUT TIME........



Requesting the mods to kindly trim the title.....


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## ganimi kawa

*LCA NP-1 gears up for maiden flight; first EGR completed successfully*



*The naval prototype (NP-1) of the light combat aircraft (LCA) did the first engine ground run (EGR) successfully. *According to sources, the first EGR was conducted on September 26 at about 6.30 pm. Tests like engine integration, activation of the various systems like flight control, hydraulics, fuel, electrical and avionics were done successfully. 

*The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials, before its first flight shortly, sources said.*


The NP-I had its roll-out on July 6, 2010 and Team ADA promised Antony that the first flight would take place before December 31, 2010. Earlier, in an interview to this blogger, ADA chief P.S. Subramanyam had said that "tech challenges are delaying" the first flight of NP-1.

The fact that DRDO chose to officially inform the media about a significant development related to NP-1 clearly show the levels of enthusiasm the program is generating within.

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## rockstarIN

Long pending..!! hope, will fly by this year..


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## ganimi kawa

Pics of the EGR, courtesy tarmak....


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## rockstarIN

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) P.S. Subramanyam tells Tarmak007 that the delay is mainly due to the challenges being posed by some of the new technologies during the integration stage. &#8220;We had problems related to the landing gear, arrestor hook, and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow for better low-speed handling). This is how technology development occurs. Now we have sorted out all major issues and have tested all naval systems. The structural coupling test has also been completed. The NP-1 is now ready for the engine ground run,&#8221; he said.
Normally, the first flight can occur approximately six weeks after the engine ground run. &#8220;After the EGR, we will have the low and high-speed taxi trials and then the first flight. Developing the NP-2 is our next task. Being a single-seater, the development of NP-2 will be faster,&#8221; the ADA chief said.
He said the shore-based test facility (SBTF) coming up in Goa is proceeding &#8216;ahead of the schedule.&#8217; By October 2011, the take-off area will be ready and by next year (2012) the landing area too will be in place.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) P.S. Subramanyam tells Tarmak007 that the delay is mainly due to the challenges being posed by some of the new technologies during the integration stage. &#8220;*We had problems related to the landing gear, arrestor hook, and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow for better low-speed handling)*.



 So basically with the whole re-design to the naval version. However, here is more about the N-LCA:



> *DRDO conducts first engine ground run of LCA (Navy) prototype*
> 
> RELATED ARTICLES
> 
> Government to provide Rs 4,000 cr for NCAD programme: Deshmukh
> Railways keen on using Kaveri engines developed by DRDO: Parliamentary Committee
> India flies second high altitude Light Combat Helicopter prototype
> 
> BANGALORE: The country's first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne naval fighter aircraft got a fillip with the crossing of another significant milestone of the first Engine Ground Run of the first LCA (Navy) prototype NP1, DRDO said today...



DRDO conducts first engine ground run of LCA (Navy) prototype - The Economic Times


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## DarK-LorD

27 Sep, 2011, 04.28PM IST, PTI
DRDO conducts first engine ground run of LCA (Navy) prototype.

BANGALORE: The country's first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne naval fighter aircraft got a fillip with the crossing of another significant milestone of the first Engine Ground Run of the first LCA (Navy) prototype NP1, DRDO said today.

The team steering LCA (Navy) project comprises members of Indian Navy, Indian Air Force, HAL, DRDO, Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA), CSIR Labs, educational institutions, and other public and private sector partners, a Defence Research and Development Organisation statement said.

The first Engine Ground Run of NP1 aircraft, conducted at about 1830 hrs yesterday for its scheduled time, had the primary objective of checking aircraft to engine integration and activation of the various systems like flight control, hydraulics, fuel, electrical and avionics, which was successfully achieved, it said.

"The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements based on feedback identified during the course of the build up and also observed during the EGR, followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials before its maiden flight shortly", DRDO said. 

DRDO conducts first engine ground run of LCA (Navy) prototype - The Economic Times















http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/indias-carrier-fighter-makes-1st-engine.html

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## DANGER-ZONE

>



You guys made PAK-FA Style LERX to N-LCA. Bit smaller but nice move.
That might increase its Manoeuvrability rate. 



>


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## Lord Of Gondor

danger-zone said:


> You guys made PAK-FA Style LERX to N-LCA. Bit smaller but nice move.
> That might increase its Manoeuvrability rate.


Actually that is the only "easy" way to help it take off and land on Board carriers,this modification was planned before the PAK FA's public appearance and IIRC,EADS was the consultant


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## POPS

thats great now add twin tails and stealth nose as well


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## DANGER-ZONE

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

lol ..... is it a Bollywood Celebrity or a war machine. Coming out on RED CARPET


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## SQ8

Ohh.. Levcons


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## IND151

GO LCA GO

i hope navy orders N LCA in big numbers


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## DANGER-ZONE

post some more close LERX pictures of N-LCA if possible. 
need more details on it ... do they work like PAK-FA LERX or just help take off and land only.


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## Kinetic

danger-zone said:


> ---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------
> 
> lol ..... is it a Bollywood Celebrity or a war machine. Coming out on RED CARPET



Finishing, quality and skin surface are much better. The aerodynamics, structure and clean configuration looks stealthy.


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## SpArK

When is GE414 going up in its rear..


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## angeldemon_007

Good progress...atleast we will have a 4th gen naval fighter jet by 2015 better than present fleet.

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## Dash

angeldemon_007 said:


> Good progress...atleast we will have a 4th gen naval fighter jet by 2015 better than present fleet.


But will it be really deployed as it has to compete with Mig 29 and NMRCA si teh question. I think NLCA was a bad move to a waste of money and resources. In stead we would have diverted the resource to Mk2 and gotten it faster.


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## janon

angeldemon_007 said:


> Good progress...atleast we will have a 4th gen naval fighter jet by 2015 better than present fleet.



We already have the Mig 29Ks in our fleet, which is better than the NLCA in most respects. Of course, we don't have a carrier to fly them out of yet. But it has been inducted.


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## angeldemon_007

> But will it be really deployed as it has to compete with Mig 29 and NMRCA si teh question. I think NLCA was a bad move to a waste of money and resources. In stead we would have diverted the resource to Mk2 and gotten it faster.


Don't worry about it. First we have to make wheels before making a bike. The mk2 version won't take long either.


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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> post some more close LERX pictures of N-LCA if possible.
> need more details on it ... do they work like PAK-FA LERX or just help take off and land only.



It's called "LEVCON" ( Leading Edge Vortex CONtroller ) for the N-LCA and the idea behind it is not increased maneuverability (only an additional benefit), but reduced aproach speed for carrier landings:

http://www.lca-tejas.org/navaltejas.html

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 




angeldemon_007 said:


> Good progress...atleast we will have a 4th gen naval fighter jet by 2015 better than present fleet.



Don't get too excited about this, even IN considers this version only as a tech demonstrator, which should lead to the operational fighter version, based on the MK2. There is still a lot of work to do, with no experience and big risks of further delays, not to forget that the outcome in regard of performance is more than unclear.

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
You should feel lucky. Considering the track record of DRDO i think we are at a pretty good pace...And even mk1 version is better than our vintage harriers.

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> You should feel lucky. Considering the track record of DRDO i think we are at a pretty good pace...And even mk1 version is better than our vintage harriers.



MK1 will not be fielded in operational service on the carriers, it is just for training, tech and capability demonstrations, just the final N-LCAs based on the MK2s will be fielded on Gorshkov and IAC 2.


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## Secur

Which engine are they using ? Is the deal for GE engines finalized ?


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## satishkumarcsc

Secur said:


> Which engine are they using ? Is the deal for GE engines finalized ?



Yes they are finalized and the first delivery is taking place in 2014. It is the GE-414 INS6.


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## luckyyy

On weapon trials of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas which is going on at a firing range in Pokhran, Mr. Saraswat said, *Yesterday LCA fired a laser guided bomb which had a direct hit on the target under heat conditions in Pokhran. It was the first such firing from the aircraft.*


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## rockstarIN

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> You should feel lucky. Considering the track record of DRDO i think we are at a pretty good pace...And even mk1 version is better than our vintage harriers.



Long way to go for N-LCA, and remember IN very much cares about state of the art systems. They knew that we can't make a Rafale-M for the first place, but wants own systems.


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## jha

rockstar said:


> Long way to go for N-LCA, and remember IN very much cares about state of the art systems. They knew that we can't make a *Navel* Rafale for the first place, but wants own systems.


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## DANGER-ZONE

where r the pictures of LCA cluster bombing ??


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## WHITESMOKE

nomi007 said:


> is tejas is indigenous jet?
> engine is American
> radar is Israeli
> weapons are Russian & Israel origin
> design is base on french delta-wing base
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RpAw8iHp5pg/Tl291e9Hb7I/AAAAAAAANk0/4E0BjOU8qPA/s1600/tejas_mailtoday.jpg



No need to reply, Post reported. Trolls wont even spare sticky threads

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Long way to go for N-LCA, and remember IN very much cares about state of the art systems. They knew that we can't make a Navel Rafale for the first place, but wants own systems.




Agree ....

In three wings, navy is the one which is focusing much on local products. IAF has worst record in incorporating Local system.. Mark my words, LCA will enter IAF or not NLCA will definitely serve Indian Navy. 

Look at the Navy's inventory, many ships are indian origin.

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## WHITESMOKE

Black Widow said:


> Agree ....
> 
> In three wings, navy is the one which is focusing much on local products. IAF has worst record in incorporating Local system.. Mark my words, LCA will enter IAF or not NLCA will definitely serve Indian Navy.
> 
> Look at the Navy's inventory, many ships are indian origin.



Actually Navy very well knows that such a huge requirement for future can not be fulfilled without indigenous products.. Hope someday IAF and IA will also understand this.

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## rockstarIN

jha said:


>


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## sancho

Secur said:


> Which engine are they using ? Is the deal for GE engines finalized ?



This N-LCA prototype uses the GE 404 IN20 engine, while the final fighter versions will be based on the LCA MK2 with the GE 414 INS6



WHITESMOKE said:


> Actually Navy very well knows that such a huge requirement for future can not be fulfilled without indigenous products.. Hope someday IAF and IA will also understand this.



And still it is a mistake to limit the capability of our carriers on a low capable single engine fighter, only IN wants to improve indigenous developments. They could have build this N-LCA TD version for the same reason, but without developing an operational version for carrier service. Indigenous developments, yes, but for the right reasons ! ! !


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> This N-LCA prototype uses the GE 404 IN20 engine, while the final fighter versions will be based on the LCA MK2 with the GE 414 INS6
> 
> 
> 
> And still it is a mistake to limit the capability of our carriers on a low capable single engine fighter, only IN wants to improve indigenous developments. They could have build this N-LCA TD version for the same reason, but without developing an operational version for carrier service. Indigenous developments, yes, but for the right reasons ! ! !



Well there is a serious reason for that. Our Aircraft carriers were never meant for land strike. They are primarily for fleet defence and what better aircraft to have instead of an LCA? It is cheap to operate and indigenous and the navy never told they will have only the LCA on board....the space will be shared by MiG 29k also.

The initial name of the IAC-1 was ADS which stands for Air Defence Ship. So the LCA will be a good dogfighter on the skies over the fleet giving it enough range and the MiG 29 K will be the strike component and the hi-end of the Indian navy....

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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well there is a serious reason for that. Our Aircraft carriers were never meant for land strike. They are primarily for fleet defence and what better aircraft to have instead of an LCA? It is cheap to operate and indigenous and the navy never told they will have only the LCA on board....the space will be shared by MiG 29k also.
> 
> The initial name of the IAC-1 was ADS which stands for Air Defence Ship. So the LCA will be a good dogfighter on the skies over the fleet giving it enough range and the MiG 29 K will be the strike component and the hi-end of the Indian navy....


The carriers are not meant for strikes (except of the Russian carriers), but the fighters are and even our 2 new carriers will have multi role capable Mig 29Ks right? So be it air defence, anti ship, or strikes on shore based targets, that all is part of their duty and normally must be of N-LCA as well, but from what we see and know so far, that's not going to happen.
I don't care much it it's cheap, or indigenous, but a carrier will have only a very limited air wing, that's why the priority should be on getting the most capable fighters, not the cheapest! For IAF it makes sense to have less capable and cheaper to operate fighters at their lower end, next to MMRCA, MKI, FGFA. The IN carriers on the other side would be way more capable only with Mig 29Ks, because it offers a higher performance than N-LCA, not to forget that it is even likely that they will supplement them with the older Sea Harriers until N-LCA will be available someday and they are not much inferior.
IN Sea Harriers AFAIK uses the same Elta 2032 that this N-LCA prototype uses, just like the same Israeli derby missiles. We could have bought more 2nd hand Sea Harriers from the UK now at cheap rates, but way more capble in the strike / CAS role, because they can already can carry rocket pods, Brimstone ATGMs, 250 & 500Kg Paveway LGBs...:












IN even complained that it would have been better to develop a carrier fighter and then re-design it for the air force, instead of what they are doing with LCA to N-LCA now, because it's not a minimum change easy development, especially not with the limited experience of ADA/DRDO/HAL in this area.

Operationally the Mig 29K/Sea Harrier mix would have been better for IN and with indigenous developments in mind, it would have been better if ADA & Co developed this N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator as a base for carrier fighter developments and then went on for N-AMCA! A NG carrier fighter, fully developed for IN carriers requirments, be it for STOBAR config to replace Sea Harriers and if needed even Mig 29Ks, or in CATOBAR config for IAC 2 if we get catapults from the US.

Would our carriers be more capable?
Would our indigenous industry benefit?
Would LCA development benefit from less delays?
Would AMCA be more useful and reasonable, when developed as a carrier fighter?

*YES!*

But instead, we want everything at once! Be it a fighter fully developed by our own with all the critical parts developed at the same time, that also "must" been used by the air force and the navy, although it doesn't make an operational sense and to top it all, we even start a NG development with the same silly aims (AMCA for IAF and IN, fully multi role...) and based on the same overestimations even before the first development is finished.
In this case, IN should have used Mig 29Ks and Sea Harriers as stop gap options, to develop something they really wanted and according to their requirments, to make IN carriers really capable, instead of saying that they have to commitment towards indigenisation, because they don't help themself and not LCA with their side demands and requirments, besides those of IAF.

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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> The carriers are not meant for strikes (except of the Russian carriers), but the fighters are and even our 2 new carriers will have multi role capable Mig 29Ks right? So be it air defence, anti ship, or strikes on shore based targets, that all is part of their duty and normally must be of N-LCA as well, but from what we see and know so far, that's not going to happen.
> I don't care much it it's cheap, or indigenous, but a carrier will have only a very limited air wing, that's why the priority should be on getting the most capable fighters, not the cheapest! For IAF it makes sense to have less capable and cheaper to operate fighters at their lower end, next to MMRCA, MKI, FGFA. The IN carriers on the other side would be way more capable only with Mig 29Ks, because it offers a higher performance than N-LCA, not to forget that it is even likely that they will supplement them with the older Sea Harriers until N-LCA will be available someday and they are not much inferior.
> IN Sea Harriers AFAIK uses the same Elta 2032 that this N-LCA prototype uses, just like the same Israeli derby missiles. We could have bought more 2nd hand Sea Harriers from the UK now at cheap rates, but way more capble in the strike / CAS role, because they can already can carry rocket pods, Brimstone ATGMs, 250 & 500Kg Paveway LGBs...:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IN even complained that it would have been better to develop a carrier fighter and then re-design it for the air force, instead of what they are doing with LCA to N-LCA now, because it's not a minimum change easy development, especially not with the limited experience of ADA/DRDO/HAL in this area.
> 
> Operationally the Mig 29K/Sea Harrier mix would have been better for IN and with indigenous developments in mind, it would have been better if ADA & Co developed this N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator as a base for carrier fighter developments and then went on for N-AMCA! A NG carrier fighter, fully developed for IN carriers requirments, be it for STOBAR config to replace Sea Harriers and if needed even Mig 29Ks, or in CATOBAR config for IAC 2 if we get catapults from the US.
> 
> Would our carriers be more capable?
> Would our indigenous industry benefit?
> Would LCA development benefit from less delays?
> Would AMCA be more useful and reasonable, when developed as a carrier fighter?
> 
> *YES!*
> 
> But instead, we want everything at once! Be it a fighter fully developed by our own with all the critical parts developed at the same time, that also "must" been used by the air force and the navy, although it doesn't make an operational sense and to top it all, we even start a NG development with the same silly aims (AMCA for IAF and IN, fully multi role...) and based on the same overestimations even before the first development is finished.
> In this case, IN should have used Mig 29Ks and Sea Harriers as stop gap options, to develop something they really wanted and according to their requirments, to make IN carriers really capable, instead of saying that they have to commitment towards indigenisation, because they don't help themself and not LCA with their side demands and requirments, besides those of IAF.



Just one question...Are they selling their Harriers? They are selling hell-a-lot of their ships but I dont think they are selling their harriers. Nor are the USMC ready to part with theirs or else we would have bought them a long back. Above all the Harriers are an aircraft designed in the 1960s and they have their own flaws.

Designing a naval aircraft is one of the most difficult tasks as aircrafts from carriers are 'launched' and 'recovered', they dont take off and land as land based aircraft do. So it would be necessary for us to learn about the structural stress and also about the different challenges faced by the aircraft designed by us and things that must not be overlooked in the future design of the aircraft as 'naval' aircraft are a bit tricky. The landing gear, the speed of landing approach are a few things that must actually be taken into account as if the aircraft misses the arrestor hook it must have enough power to take off from the deck again.

Theoretically many things can be done but during practice the whole thing differs. MiG 29k with LCA is the only optional combo right now unless we get the F 35. But I would rate the YAK 141 any day over the Sea Harrier.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Just one question...Are they selling their Harriers?



Yes, they offered it for IN before and when they phased out their last carrier, they even offered the carrier on the global market to get at least some money. And it's not about if other fighters are better than Harriers in general, but about the fact that we had experience with them, could induct it very fast and would still be more than useful enough for the roles Gorshkov and IAC 1 are meant to. It would have been a cheap and capable bridge, to develop a real carrier fighter and I don't see why all fighters developed in or with India, have to be used from IAF and IN. LCA/FGFA for IAF, like F16/F15 in USAF and N-AMCA for IN, like F18 for USN. The forces would have got what they wanted, just like the industry as well!



satishkumarcsc said:


> Designing a naval aircraft is one of the most difficult tasks as aircrafts from carriers are 'launched' and 'recovered', they dont take off and land as land based aircraft do. So it would be necessary for us to learn about the structural stress...



That's why we developed the N-LCA MK1 prototype now! It will give ADA/HAL and co the experience to develop a carrier fighter and will be used by IN for training reasons at INS HANSA. There is no need to order up to 60 operational fighters, just to get experience, or to train, tech demonstrators are more than enough. 

I simply don't understand why they always want everything at once, which forces us to do mistakes and delaying things, instead of doing on step then another. Moving slowly forward is still better than standing still for a decade or so isn't it? But that's what we did with Kaveri engine for example and by distracting LCA development with N-LCA and now AMCA developments inbetween.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Yes, they offered it for IN before and when they phased out their last carrier, they even offered the carrier on the global market to get at least some money. And it's not about if other fighters are better than Harriers in general, but about the fact that we had experience with them, could induct it very fast and would still be more than useful enough for the roles Gorshkov and IAC 1 are meant to. It would have been a cheap and capable bridge, to develop a real carrier fighter and I don't see why all fighters developed in or with India, have to be used from IAF and IN. LCA/FGFA for IAF, like F16/F15 in USAF and N-AMCA for IN, like F18 for USN. The forces would have got what they wanted, just like the industry as well!



I think IN is not happy with Harriers (maintenance savvy) ans some times spare problems with it. May be that is the reason they are going for own systems.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> I think IN is not happy with Harriers (maintenance savvy) ans some times spare problems with it. May be that is the reason they are going for own systems.



I know, but they aren't happy with N-LCA either and only go for it, because it is an indigenous development. My point is, why go for a less capable N-LCA, instead of using the Harriers as a stop gap (next to new Migs) and develop N-AMCA the way they want it, even if it takes more time?


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## WHITESMOKE

sancho said:


> I know, but they aren't happy with N-LCA either and only go for it, because it is an indigenous development. My point is, why go for a less capable N-LCA, instead of using the Harriers as a stop gap (next to new Migs) and develop N-AMCA the way they want it, even if it takes more time?



Sancho.. NAMCA.. you yourself know how much time it will take.. atleast 12-15 years.. by that time equations in Indian ocean will change alot


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## sancho

WHITESMOKE said:


> Sancho.. NAMCA.. you yourself know how much time it will take.. atleast 12-15 years.. by that time equations in Indian ocean will change alot



Yes it will take time, but so what? It's not like we need a 2nd carrier fighter as soon as possible right? Mig 29K and additional Sea Harriers would be more than enough for Gorshkov and IAC 1 for the next 10 to 12 years and even IAC 2 (which seems to get a proven carrier fighter for the CATOBAR layout) is will take that much time to be available. So there is no pressure for N-LCA at all, besides the pride of having a indigenous carrier fighter.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> I know, but they aren't happy with N-LCA either and only go for it, because it is an indigenous development. My point is, why go for a less capable N-LCA, instead of using the Harriers as a stop gap (next to new Migs) and develop N-AMCA the way they want it, even if it takes more time?



N-LCA is better than Harriers any day apart from indigenous part. IN does not want Migs in all her carriers. Anyway harriers will be there for 10-15 N-LCAs came out to replace. I do not know how much time NAMCA will take but IN will obvious look for alternate by this time. May be Rafales for IAC-2.


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> N-LCA is better than Harriers any day apart from indigenous part. IN does not want Migs in all her carriers. Anyway harriers will be there for 10-15 N-LCAs came out to replace. I do not know how much time NAMCA will take but IN will obvious look for alternate by this time. May be Rafales for IAC-2.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/131992-f-35b-set-sea-trials-next-week.html


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## marcos98

*User trials of Light Combat Aircraft to commence by end of year*
User trials of Light Combat Aircraft to commence by end of year - Bangalore - DNA


> The much-awaited user trials of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would commence by the end of this year.
> 
> The user trials, which will be conducted by the IAF&#8217;s Bangalore-based aircraft systems and testing establishment (ASTE), is a prerequisite before the LCA is inducted into the IAF.





> These pilots are being deputed to NFTC to get acclimatised with the aircraft, which will be subsequently handed over to ASTE for user evaluation.
> 
> The ASTE will be given two LCA aircraft&#8212;the Limited Series Production 7 and 8 (LSP 7& 8)&#8212;for user trials.
> 
> During the user trials, the angle of attack would be increased from the present 20-22 degrees to 26-28 degrees. Similarly, the gravitation (G) limit would be raised from the present 6Gs to 8Gs.
> 
> Upon induction into the IAF, the first squadron of the LCA will be raised in Bangalore and then moved to the Sulur air force station near Coimbatore.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> N-LCA is better than Harriers any day apart from indigenous part.


In A2A yes, in A2G don't think so, especially not without several upgrades in terms of weapon integration, which would make it a useful stop gap, especially alongside the Mig 29Ks, which are better in A2A than both of the earlier.


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## rockstarIN

NEW DELHI (PTI): India's ambitious project to develop indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has suffered a setback as the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) for the aircraft was delayed by another year.

"As far as LCA is concerned, there was an initial IOC in January this year. We were supposed to get the IOC (final) by the end of this year. As we see it, there is a delay of almost a year in that," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told a press conference here.

The delay in IOC is expected to further affect the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of the aircraft, which was expected by 2012.

Sources said the delay in IOC has taken place as the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has not been able to complete certain trials of the aircraft.

The extended monsoon this year also affected the trial schedule of the aircraft, they said.


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## Merilion

rockstar said:


> NEW DELHI (PTI): India's ambitious project to develop indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has suffered a setback as the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) for the aircraft was delayed by another year.
> 
> "As far as LCA is concerned, there was an *initial IOC *in January this year. We were supposed to get the *IOC (final)* by the end of this year. As we see it, there is a delay of almost a year in that," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told a press conference here.
> 
> The delay in IOC is expected to further affect the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of the aircraft, which was expected by 2012.
> 
> Sources said the delay in IOC has taken place as the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has not been able to complete certain trials of the aircraft.
> 
> The extended monsoon this year also affected the trial schedule of the aircraft, they said.



i'm confused. i thot lca cleared IOC quite some time back?
what's inital IOC? what's IOC (final)? is it FOC?


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## proud_indian

Merilion said:


> i'm confused. i thot lca cleared IOC quite some time back?
> what's inital IOC? what's IOC (final)? is it FOC?



pathetic media

It is FOC not IOC


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## rockstarIN

A good video

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## feral

Sorry to deviate, but, what's the maximum flight speed achieved on the tejas with the f404 engines? By how much is it expected to go up after the GE F414 gets installed? 

Realistically speaking, what role would the iaf use it in ? and How does it compare to the Jf-17 And f-16 blk52 used by the paf , with special emphasis on bvr capability.?


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## Lord Of Gondor

feral said:


> Sorry to deviate, but, what's the maximum flight speed achieved on the tejas with the f404 engines? By how much is it expected to go up after the GE F414 gets installed?
> 
> Realistically speaking, what role would the iaf use it in ? and How does it compare to the Jf-17 And f-16 blk52 used by the paf , with special emphasis on bvr capability.?


The current safe maximum speed achieved is around Mach 1.8 at high altitude and might go up to mach 2.0 for the FOC obtained Tejas Mark 2(due to aerodynamic refinements et all)
IAF would use the Mark 1 as Trainers(majorly) and as interceptors(with some A2G capabilities) and the Mark two would be a all out Multi role aircraft and we might even see them replace MiG21's at Srinagar AFB(FOB's)
*Purely my ignorant opinions:-*(Not tryin' to measure P**** lengths')
Individually speaking,the Tejas Mark 1 might have higher availability rate compared to the JF(Russian Engines....a bit modified than the ones on our MiG29 SMT) and it might have similar availability rates compared to the Falcon.But the falcon has better A2G and A2A capabilities(Aim 120 C5,AGM 65 Maverick and JDAM's) and it has better EW suites and the V9 of the AN/APG 68 RADAR has better range and can operate in hostile EW environments,while the info on the MMR Hybrid on board the LSP3 and others is still scarce!


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## Windjammer

*Tejas won't become fully operational before 2013*

NEW DELHI: The largely homegrown Tejas fighter is still to fight its way out of the doldrums. The jet will not become fully-operational anytime before 2013, a full three decades after the LCA (light combat aircraft) project was first sanctioned in 1983.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, responding to questions on Monday, remarked the Tejas LCA's operational clearance had been delayed by almost a year, without elaborating any further.

*This indicates the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013 at the earliest, and the first two squadrons will be up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) only by 2015 or so.*

As per revised timelines drawn up after several cost and time-overruns, Tejas was to get the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2010, which basically signifies the aircraft is fully airworthy.

This was to be followed by an "intermediate clearance stage'' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC), when all weapon and other systems are fully-integrated into the platform, by December 2012.

Defence ministry sources on Tuesday admitted there had been slippages in the intermediate clearance stage for the lightweight, multi-role fighter after it got the IOC last January. "It will not be possible before May-June 2012 now, which in turn is likely to delay the FOC beyond December 2012. The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source.

DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official.

India certainly needs to develop its own advanced weapon systems like fighters, instead of being yoked to foreign imports which make it strategically vulnerable. But the LCA project underlines the fact that a complete rethink is needed on how to run critical indigenous defence projects.

Its overall developmental cost, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, for instance, will go up to Rs 17,269 crore by 2018 from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will eventually end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme.

*Moreover, Tejas is still only around 60% indigenous. The fighter, for instance, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster for it despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989.*

India has inked a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines.

Tejas won't become fully operational before 2013 - Times Of India

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## Storm Force

Regardless of COST and timeframe overruns THIS PROJECT HAS THE LAID THE FOUNDATIONS for a much larger/broader aviation infrastructure FOR the future for the indian air force and military in general.

This has already seen numerous spin offs like the DHRUV heliciopter & the recent attack chopper the ALH and several UAV and future unmanned combat vehicles in development..

Whether the LCA comes now or in 2 years will make no difference in that IAF will eventually field 7 sqds of this fighter by 2020-2022 around 120 fighters.. From this IAF could get the indian AMCA and many other combat systems.

Windjammer Your 25000 core figure comes to around $5 billion dollars and obviously includes the purchase of 120 fighters and not just deveolpment costs.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## arihant

I think Rs. 560 crore was unrealistic budget thought in 1983.

Considering 70-80 billion USD spent on Rafale, 6 Billion USD spent on Tejas is realistic.

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## feral

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The current safe maximum speed achieved is around Mach 1.8 at high altitude and might go up to mach 2.0 for the FOC obtained Tejas Mark 2(due to aerodynamic refinements et all)
> IAF would use the Mark 1 as Trainers(majorly) and as interceptors(with some A2G capabilities) and the Mark two would be a all out Multi role aircraft and we might even see them replace MiG21's at Srinagar AFB(FOB's)
> *Purely my ignorant opinions:-*(Not tryin' to measure P**** lengths')
> Individually speaking,the Tejas Mark 1 might have higher availability rate compared to the JF(Russian Engines....a bit modified than the ones on our MiG29 SMT) and it might have similar availability rates compared to the Falcon.But the falcon has better A2G and A2A capabilities(Aim 120 C5,AGM 65 Maverick and JDAM's) and it has better EW suites and the V9 of the AN/APG 68 RADAR has better range and can operate in hostile EW environments,while the info on the MMR Hybrid on board the LSP3 and others is still scarce!




Thanks. Would you happen to have a link for the 1.8 mach though?. All i've found on the net is 1.6 methinks


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## Lord Of Gondor

feral said:


> Thanks. Would you happen to have a link for the 1.8 mach though?. All i've found on the net is 1.6 methinks


I stand corrected!!!
The max safe speed is Mach 1.6
Tejas - Specifications - Leading Particulars and Performance


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## feral

Apparently, India took delivery of some elta el/m-2052 aesa radars in 2009 for the lca. This would mean that we already have AESA tech on our hands. DOes anyone have any intel on the detection range for the aforementioned equipment?


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1712 Test Flights successfully. (30-Sep-2011).
* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-208,PV3-301,LSP1-67,LSP2-188,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-41,LSP5-48)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1686 Test Flights successfully. (22-Sep-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-208,PV3-295,LSP1-67,LSP2-178,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-41,LSP5-38)

26 flights in 8 days


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## Black Widow

Windjammer said:


> *Tejas won't become fully operational before 2013*
> 
> NEW DELHI: The largely homegrown Tejas fighter is still to fight its way out of the doldrums. The jet will not become fully-operational anytime before 2013, a full three decades after the LCA (light combat aircraft) project was first sanctioned in 1983.
> 
> IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, responding to questions on Monday, remarked the Tejas LCA's operational clearance had been delayed by almost a year, without elaborating any further.
> 
> *This indicates the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013 at the earliest, and the first two squadrons will be up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) only by 2015 or so.*
> 
> As per revised timelines drawn up after several cost and time-overruns, Tejas was to get the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2010, which basically signifies the aircraft is fully airworthy.
> 
> This was to be followed by an "intermediate clearance stage'' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC), when all weapon and other systems are fully-integrated into the platform, by December 2012.
> 
> Defence ministry sources on Tuesday admitted there had been slippages in the intermediate clearance stage for the lightweight, multi-role fighter after it got the IOC last January. "It will not be possible before May-June 2012 now, which in turn is likely to delay the FOC beyond December 2012. The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source.
> 
> DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official.
> 
> India certainly needs to develop its own advanced weapon systems like fighters, instead of being yoked to foreign imports which make it strategically vulnerable. But the LCA project underlines the fact that a complete rethink is needed on how to run critical indigenous defence projects.
> 
> Its overall developmental cost, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, for instance, will go up to Rs 17,269 crore by 2018 from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will eventually end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme.
> 
> *Moreover, Tejas is still only around 60% indigenous. The fighter, for instance, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster for it despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989.*
> 
> India has inked a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines.
> 
> Tejas won't become fully operational before 2013 - Times Of India





Thanks for Information  
Engine is not piece of cake, we are working on it, Insha allah one day We will incorporate Indian Engine in LCA... 
Cost overrun is common in Development. If you search little more you can see the cost overrun for F35, F22, F18 and many other programs. (I cant comment on RUssian and chinese programs, coz these 2 countries never disclosed cost information.)

Tejas id 100% indigenous. I never read some one saying Grippen is n% indigenous...


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## feral

guys, here's the trade register for indo-israel arms sales 2007-2010......

proves that elta el/m-2052 is indeed the radar on the lca

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

Transfers of major conventional weapons: sorted by supplier. Deals with deliveries or orders made for year range 2007 to 2010
Note: The &#8216;No. delivered/produced&#8217; and the &#8216;Year(s) of deliveries&#8217; columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. Deals in which the recipient was involved in the production of the weapon system are listed separately. The &#8216;Comments&#8217; column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/at_data.html>. The SIPRI Arms Transfers Database is continuously updated as new information becomes available.
Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database
Information generated: 08 October 2011


Supplier/ Year	Year(s)	No.	
recipient (R)	No.	Weapon	Weapon	of order/	of	delivered/	
or licenser (L)	ordered	designation	description	licence	deliveries	produced	Comments


Israel
R: India	(25)	EL/M-2022	MP aircraft radar	(2000)	2001-2010	(25)	For 28 Do-228MP MP aircraft from FRG; fitted up to 4 years after aircraft delivered
(400)	Barak-1	SAM	(2002)	2005-2010	(200)	For Delhi and Kolkata destroyers and probably for Shivalik and Project-28 frigates
(8)	EL/M-2238 STAR	Air search radar	(2002)	2004-2007	(2)	For 3 Kolkata (Project-15A) destroyers produced in India and for modernization of 5 Kashin-2 (Rajput) destroyers
16	EL/M-2221 STGR	Fire control radar	(2003)	2004-2007	(7)	For 3 Kolkata (Project-15A) destroyers and 3 Brahmaputra frigates produced in India and modernization of 5 Kashin-2 (Rajput) destroyers and 2 Godavari frigates; for use with Barak SAM
(8)	EL/M-2221 STGR	Fire control radar	(2003) For Barak SAM on 4 Project-28 frigates produced in India; status uncertain
3	EL/M-2075 Phalcon	AEW&C system	2004	2009-2010	2	Part of $1.1 b deal (incl $350 m advance payment); for 3 A-50EhI AEW&C aircraft from Uzbekistan (ordered via Russia and fitted with AEW&C system in Israel); delivery 2009-2011
48	EL/M-2221 STGR	Fire control radar	2004 Part of deal worth $104 m for modernization of 48 Indian ZSU-23-4 SPAAG; designation uncertain; delivery 2011
20	Derby	BVRAAM	2005	2009-2010	(10)	$25 m deal; for modernized Sea Harrier combat aircraft
(9)	EL/M-2032	Aircraft radar	2005	2008-2009	2	Part INR4.8-6.4 b ($110-137 m) deal; for modernization of 9 Sea Harrier combat aircraft
(16)	Heron	UAV	(2005)	2006-2007	(16)	Possibly $200-266 m deal; no. could be up to 50
(100)	Python-4	BVRAAM	(2005)	2007	(100)	
3	EL/M-2248 MF-STAR	Multifuntion radar	2006 $200 m deal; for 3 Kolkata (Project-15A) destroyers produced in India
1	EL/M-2070	AGS radar	(2007)	2009	1	For RISAT-2 reconnaissance satellite produced in India
(8)	Litening	Aircraft EO system	(2007)	2008	(8)	Litening-3 version; for Su-30 combat aircraft
. .	Litening	Aircraft EO system	2007 For Tejas (LCA) combat aircraft
. .	Derby	BVRAAM	(2008) For SPYDER SAM systems
4	EL/M-2083 APR	Air search radar	2008 
. .	Python-5	BVRAAM	2008 Part of INR1800 crore deal; for SPYDER SAM system
EL/M-2052	Aircraft radar	(2009) For Tejas (LCA) combat aircraft produced in India; bought after Indian development of radar delayed
(2)	EL/M-2083 APR	Air search radar	2009 For coastal surveillance; bought in reaction to 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai
Griffin	Guided bomb	2009 
Harop	SSM	2009 Delivery from 2011
(16)	Heron	UAV	(2009) INR11.2 b ($239 m) deal
47	EL/M-2221 STGR	Fire control radar	2010 For modernization of 47 Indian ZSU-23-4 SPAAG; designation uncertain
2	Heron	UAV	2010 INR7 b ($152 m) deal

L: India	18	SPYDER-MR	Mobile SAM system	2008 $260 m 'LLQRM' programme; delivery probably 2011-2013
2000	Barak-8	SAM	2009 Part of $1.4 b deal; incl for 3 Kolkata (Project-15A) destroyers and 4 Project-28 frigates and for land-based Barak SAM systems
(18)	Barak-8	SAM system	(2009) Part of $1.4 b deal; Indian designation Barak-NG or Barak-2
Barak-8ER	SAM	(2009) Part of $1.4 b deal; for ship-based and land-based Barak SAM systems


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I think then US really forced Israel from not giving this radar and that is why this deal is so quite. Also its not new for Israel to not follow what US says. Us only forced them so that their air-crafts will win the MMRCA based on aesa. I mean Rafale or eurofighter with el/m-2052 new lightneing pod will be the best option.


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## rockstarIN

I do not think EL2052 will fit into LCA, its a small fighter.


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## sancho

feral said:


> guys, here's the trade register for indo-israel arms sales 2007-2010......
> 
> proves that elta el/m-2052 is indeed the radar on the lca
> 
> 
> (100)	Python-4	BVRAAM	(2005)	2007	(100)
> 
> EL/M-2052	Aircraft radar	(2009) For Tejas (LCA) combat aircraft produced in India; bought after Indian development of radar delayed



Can you provide the source? Where does the 100 Python 4 come from and which fighter should use them since 2005? Also in mentiones that Indian radar development was delayed, but in that time we were developing our MMR, not AESA, that's why it most likely is talking about the Elta 2032 MMRs we bought for LCA as a stop gap and which are integrated now. The ELTA AESA is not fully developed yet, because it was tested only on some aircrafts, but not integrated in operational fighters AFAIK, so it's doubtful that they can supply us with some of them, especially without US approval.



rockstar said:


> I do not think EL2052 will fit into LCA, its a small fighter.



Any radar can be downsized to be fitted in other fighters, that's why we had the Bars 29 (smaller version of MKIs radar) on offer for Mig 29 upgrade, or why the Zhuk AE is in a bigger version is on offer for MKI now as well. It's only a matter of different diameters and reduced, or incresed number of T/R modules.


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## DarK-LorD

Well SIPRI does mention transfer of EL2052 & Python 4 to India here:
Trade Registers

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Can
> 
> 
> Any radar can be downsized to be fitted in other fighters, that's why we had the Bars 29 (smaller version of MKIs radar) on offer for Mig 29 upgrade, or why the Zhuk AE is in a bigger version is on offer for MKI now as well. It's only a matter of different diameters and reduced, or incresed number of T/R modules.



Till what extent? I think AESAs consumes more power, scale down verions too have that disadventage.


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## angeldemon_007

> Any radar can be downsized to be fitted in other fighters, that's why we had the Bars 29 (smaller version of MKIs radar) on offer for Mig 29 upgrade, or why the Zhuk AE is in a bigger version is on offer for MKI now as well. It's only a matter of different diameters and reduced, or incresed number of T/R modules.


No its not true. But only EL2052 (as far as i know) can fit any fighter. As far as you bars 29 version is there, either this also falls in the same category as EL2052 or its specifically modified for Mig29 as their's not much difference between the nose of 2 fighter jets and it can't be used on LCA.


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## feral

rockstar said:


> I do not think EL2052 will fit into LCA, its a small fighter.


 Actually, it will probably fit. The tejas DOES have quite a big nose cone for it size doesnt it?


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
El2052 can fit any fighter jet...We have this option or make a whole new aesa.


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> No its not true. But only EL2052 (as far as i know) can fit any fighter.



Why? What's the difference between Israeli T/R modules and US, Russian, or European? As I mentioned earlier, it's just a matter of the nose diameter and maybe the form of the nose.




angeldemon_007 said:


> As far as you bars 29 version is there, either this also falls in the same category as EL2052 or its specifically modified for Mig29 as their's not much difference between the nose of 2 fighter jets and it can't be used on LCA.



Exactly, it's a modified version of the BARS radar in the MKI, which means it's mainly smaller! Same goes for the Zhuk AE AESA radar, which initially was offered in the Mig 35 and the early prototypes had a diameter of just 575mm, with less than 800 t/r modules. During MMRCA the Russians realised that they have to offer more and proposed a bigger version, with 688mm diameter and something around 1000 t/r modules. Now they offer the same radar for the MKI upgrade, which has a diameter of around 900mm and you can guess how many t/r modules that version would use.
Another obvious example is the Israeli EL 2032, which was offered for Mig 29, Mirage 2000 and is even integrated into LCA, Sea Harrier and AFAIK also in the Jaguar IMs. So in Indian forces service alone it is used on 3 different fighters with different nose diameters, which once again shows, that you can put the same radar on any fighter, the more difficult thing is, to get the clearance by the manufacturer of the fighter, to use a different radar. 
No matter what, none of the MMRCAs will use an Israeli AESA radar and the way it looks like, not even Tejas will get it (because of US restrictions), that's why I hope we join some development with the MMRCA winner, or that a version of its radar for Tejas as well. The Europeans are ready to share AESA radar techs with us and would be logical choices for a stop gap AESA radar for LCA MK2, because we will produce that radar in India under licence anyway.


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## sudhir007




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## malikkhawar

EW DELHI: The largely homegrown Tejas fighter is still to fight its way out of the doldrums. The jet will not become fully-operational anytime before 2013, a full three decades after the LCA (light combat aircraft) project was first sanctioned in 1983. 

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, responding to questions on Monday, remarked the Tejas LCA's operational clearance had been delayed by almost a year, without elaborating any further. 

This indicates the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013 at the earliest, and the first two squadrons will be up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) only by 2015 or so. 

As per revised timelines drawn up after several cost and time-overruns, Tejas was to get the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2010, which basically signifies the aircraft is fully airworthy. 

This was to be followed by an "intermediate clearance stage'' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC), when all weapon and other systems are fully-integrated into the platform, by December 2012. 

Defence ministry sources on Tuesday admitted there had been slippages in the intermediate clearance stage for the lightweight, multi-role fighter after it got the IOC last January. "It will not be possible before May-June 2012 now, which in turn is likely to delay the FOC beyond December 2012. *The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source. *

DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official. 

India certainly needs to develop its own advanced weapon systems like fighters, instead of being yoked to foreign imports which make it strategically vulnerable. But the LCA project underlines the fact that a complete rethink is needed on how to run critical indigenous defence projects. 

Its overall developmental cost, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, for instance, will go up to Rs 17,269 crore by 2018 from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will eventually end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme. 

Moreover, Tejas is still only around 60% indigenous. The fighter, for instance, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster for it despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989. 

India has inked a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines




H*ahahahahhaahahhah LCA Cant Fly in MonS0ons..... what a shame for a fighter who is not abel to fly in rain....... *


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## Andross

malikkhawar said:


> EW DELHI: The largely homegrown Tejas fighter is still to fight its way out of the doldrums. The jet will not become fully-operational anytime before 2013, a full three decades after the LCA (light combat aircraft) project was first sanctioned in 1983.
> 
> IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, responding to questions on Monday, remarked the Tejas LCA's operational clearance had been delayed by almost a year, without elaborating any further.
> 
> This indicates the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013 at the earliest, and the first two squadrons will be up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) only by 2015 or so.
> 
> As per revised timelines drawn up after several cost and time-overruns, Tejas was to get the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2010, which basically signifies the aircraft is fully airworthy.
> 
> This was to be followed by an "intermediate clearance stage'' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC), when all weapon and other systems are fully-integrated into the platform, by December 2012.
> 
> Defence ministry sources on Tuesday admitted there had been slippages in the intermediate clearance stage for the lightweight, multi-role fighter after it got the IOC last January. "It will not be possible before May-June 2012 now, which in turn is likely to delay the FOC beyond December 2012. *The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source. *
> 
> DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official.
> 
> India certainly needs to develop its own advanced weapon systems like fighters, instead of being yoked to foreign imports which make it strategically vulnerable. But the LCA project underlines the fact that a complete rethink is needed on how to run critical indigenous defence projects.
> 
> Its overall developmental cost, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, for instance, will go up to Rs 17,269 crore by 2018 from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will eventually end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme.
> 
> Moreover, Tejas is still only around 60% indigenous. The fighter, for instance, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster for it despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989.
> 
> India has inked a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> H*ahahahahhaahahhah LCA Cant Fly in MonS0ons..... what a shame for a fighter who is not abel to fly in rain....... *





*The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months *due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source. 



Read it again troll


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## rockstarIN

*CSIO develops head-up display for LCA&#8217;s naval version *

Chandigarh, October 18
Close on the heels of the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, undergoing ground tests of its engines, another milestone has been accomplished by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) here by producing a head-up display (HUD) unit for its cockpit.

Two units of the prototype naval HUD have been developed and it is expected to be tested by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) shortly before being integrated into the Tejas&#8217; cockpit.

The CSIO had earlier developed the HUD for the air force version of the Tejas, which has been installed in prototype and limited series production versions of the aircraft. The HUD is an opto-electronic device installed above the cockpit&#8217;s instrument panel that superimposes vital flight parameters on the pilot&#8217;s vision of the outside world, giving him all requisite information at a glance and without having him to look down inside the cockpit, thus enabling him to fly with his &#8220;head up&#8221;. Air speed, altitude, weapon status, rate of turn and angle of attack are among parameters displayed on the HUD.

The HUD for the naval version has different technical specifications that the air force version and the operating parameters, cockpit configuration and the pilot&#8217;s field of vision are different. In addition, two HUD units have also been fabricated by the CSIO for the HJT-36 trainer developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

Flight test update 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1713 Test Flights successfully. (14-Oct-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-209,PV3-301,LSP1-67,LSP2-188,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-41,LSP5-48)
from
LCA-Tejas has completed 1712 Test Flights successfully. (30-Sep-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-208,PV3-301,LSP1-67,LSP2-188,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-41,LSP5-48)

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## tallboy123

self deleted


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## malikkhawar

then what u say about those words
*as well as monsoons*

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 PM ----------




Andross said:


> *The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months *due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source.
> 
> 
> 
> Read it again troll



then what u say about those words
as well as monsoons


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## satishkumarcsc

malikkhawar said:


> then what u say about those words
> *as well as monsoons*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> then what u say about those words
> as well as monsoons



Well a few trials like the weapon release trials and CMDS trials along with maneuverability trials cannot be done during monsoons because of the poor visibility during rain. So the chase aircraft cannot record the behavior of the aircraft. 

You would have known about this when Chinese aircrafts were tested in Kamra.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Firemaster

malikkhawar said:


> then what u say about those words
> *as well as monsoons*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> then what u say about those words
> 
> 
> as well as monsoons


He said that about prototypes only huh


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## MINK

Tejas LSP-7 all set for its launch


Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots will officially get a taste of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the 12th aircraft from the project flight-line and the seventh from the limited series production (LSP-7) block set to kiss the skies soon.
Sources told Express that the crucial engine ground run (EGR) was over and the fighter was now being put on low-speed taxi trials (LSTT). We will do the LSTT before October 24 and the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) after that. Finally, we will do the nose-up trial leading to the first flight, sources said.
The aircraft is expected to do the LSTT at 150 kmph and the HSTT at 250 kmph.
Though the LSP-7 was scheduled to fly in August, the project hit an air pocket when fuel leak was noticed in one of the aircraft during taxiing. We had to ground the entire Tejas fleet as safety was our top-most priority. We lost the months of May, June, July and August with not much of testing happening, sources said.
Engineers had to re-arrange the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes to avoid them coming into contact.
In the meantime, the IAF minced no words about quality concerns of Tejas user versions, putting its makers Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in a spot of bother. HAL took too much time in absorption of changes suggested by the user. We have definite issues with the pace of the programme. Each aircraft is now taking 24 months right from the part assembly stage. Once, Tejas is inducted into the IAF, we want HAL to put in an improvised production line, a senior Indian Air Force official said.
To iron out all the issues, a top-level Tejas review meeting was held in New Delhi this week with all the project partners in attendance.
The IAF, which has already begun the preparations for the Tejas squadron, will have to wait for some more time before taking Tejas for the user trials. The No 45 Tejas Squadron, to be based in Sulur near Coimbatore, will be known as Flying Daggers.
FIRE POWER
Team Tejas is back in Bangalore after a two-week successful weapon trials in Pokhran and Chandan ranges of Rajasthan. For the first time, three aircraft from the Tejas flight-line have dropped a laser-guided bomb (LGB), 1,000 lb bombs and practice ammunition.
The aircraft also performed a 1,200-litre drop tank release (jettison) to test the accuracy parameters. Close to 30 flights to check improvements and accuracy of hitting the targets were performed. The LGB trail was very critical, sources said.
The team will now head for advanced high-altitude weapon trials in Jamnagar and Leh. Sea trials will take place at INS Hansa in Goa with Russian-made R-73 air-to-air close combat missile.
THE STORY SO FAR
&#9632; First flight of Tejas TD-1: 2001
&#9632; First flight of PV-2: 2005
&#9632; First order for 20 aircraft: 2006
&#9632; Order for 20 more: 2010
&#9632; Initial Operational Clearance:&#65533; 2011
&#9632; Total flights: 1,713
&#9632; Total hours: 1,000-plus
&#9632; User evaluation: Before 2012 March


Tejas LSP-7 all set for its launch - southindia - Bangalore - ibnlive


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## SpArK

*Tejas LSP-7 all set for its launch*

22 Oct 2011 10:51:37 AM IST


BANGALORE: Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots will officially get a taste of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the 12th aircraft from the project flight-line and the seventh from the limited series production (LSP-7) block set to kiss the skies soon.
Sources told Express that the crucial engine ground run (EGR) was over and the fighter was now being put on low-speed taxi trials (LSTT).* &#8220;We will do the LSTT before October 24 and the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) after that. Finally, we will do the nose-up trial leading to the first flight,&#8221;* sources said.


*The aircraft is expected to do the LSTT at 150 kmph and the HSTT at 250 kmph.
*

Though the LSP-7 was scheduled to fly in August, the project hit an air pocket when fuel leak was noticed in one of the aircraft during taxiing. &#8220;We had to ground the entire Tejas fleet as safety was our top-most priority. *We lost the months of May, June, July and August with not much of testing happening,&#8221; sources said.*


Engineers had to re-arrange the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes to avoid them coming into contact.

In the meantime, the IAF minced no words about quality concerns of Tejas user versions, putting its makers Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in a spot of bother.* &#8220;HAL took too much time in absorption of changes suggested by the user. We have definite issues with the pace of the programme. Each aircraft is now taking 24 months right from the part assembly stage. Once, Tejas is inducted into the IAF, we want HAL to put in an improvised production line,&#8221; a senior Indian Air Force official said.*


To iron out all the issues, a top-level Tejas review meeting was held in New Delhi this week with all the project partners in attendance.


The IAF, which has already begun the preparations for the Tejas squadron, will have to wait for some more time before taking Tejas for the user trials. *The No 45 Tejas Squadron, to be based in Sulur near Coimbatore, will be known as Flying Daggers.
*

*FIRE POWER*


Team Tejas is back in Bangalore after a two-week successful weapon trials in Pokhran and Chandan ranges of Rajasthan. For the first time, three aircraft from the Tejas flight-line have dropped a laser-guided bomb (LGB), 1,000 lb bombs and practice ammunition.

*The aircraft also performed a 1,200-litre drop tank release (jettison) to test the accuracy parameters. &#8220;Close to 30 flights to check improvements and accuracy of hitting the targets were performed. The LGB trail was very critical,&#8221; sources said.*

_The team will now head for advanced high-altitude weapon trials in Jamnagar and Leh. Sea trials will take place at INS Hansa in Goa with Russian-made R-73 air-to-air close combat missile._


*THE STORY SO FAR*


&#9632; First flight of Tejas TD-1: 2001
&#9632; First flight of PV-2: 2005
&#9632; First order for 20 aircraft: 2006
&#9632; Order for 20 more: 2010
&#9632; Initial Operational Clearance: 2011
&#9632; Total flights: 1,713
&#9632; Total hours: 1,000-plus
&#9632; User evaluation: Before 2012 March
(Source: MoD)


Tejas LSP-7 all set for its launch | Tejas LP 7 | Indian Air Force | The New Indian Express


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## AMCA

Ahh when was LSP 6 launched???


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## AMCA

When was LSP 6 launched???


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## SpArK

AMCA said:


> Ahh when was LSP 6 launched???




LSP-6 will be a test vehicle for high angle of attack.

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## AMCA

SpArK said:


> LSP-6 will be a test vehicle for high angle of attack.



So , It would be an Improved version of a Technology demonstrator Vehicle? or would that be a totally new Machine?


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## zeus

AMCA said:


> When was LSP 6 launched???


 
LSP 6 will be experimental AOA plane , and will be used to test the aircraft to its limits , will not be delivered to IAF


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## AMCA

zeus said:


> LSP 6 will be experimental AOA plane , and will be used to test the aircraft to its limits , will not be delivered to IAF



I see, so would that be a new machine or would it be an improved TD?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

ye dil mange more!!!


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## SpArK

AMCA said:


> So , It would be an Improved version of a Technology demonstrator Vehicle? or would that be a totally new Machine?



LSP-6 will be exclusively be used for increasing Angle of Attack (AOA) and used for other tests ,which will also include better (Experimental )RAM coating to further reduce its radar signature.

Demonstrator for sure.

Tejas LSP-7 & 8 in air by end of this year : ADA | idrw.org

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Ye dil mange more!!!

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------




zeus said:


> LSP 6 will be experimental AOA plane , and will be used to test the aircraft to its limits , will not be delivered to IAF



It will also be used for spin recovery test, so will have recovery parachute. Hope they complete the AOA test by next aero india.


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## rockstarIN

> We lost the months of May, June, July and August with not much of testing happening,&#8221; sources said.



May be this prompted IAF chief to say Tejas programme will be delayed.


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## Firemaster

AMCA said:


> So , It would be an Improved version of a Technology demonstrator Vehicle? or would that be a totally new Machine?


It will be more than just a TD with Air intakes slightly redesigned for better air flow to increase AOA. The Plane which would be delivered to IAF be based on this

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## INDIAN SOLDIER

*Tejas LSP-7 all set for sky test; fuel leak plugged, user trials soon*






BANGALORE: Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots will officially get a taste of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the 12th aircraft from the project flight-line and the seventh from the limited series production (LSP-7) block set to kiss the skies soon.
*Sources told Express that the crucial engine ground run (EGR) was over and the fighter was now being put on low-speed taxi trials (LSTT). We will do the LSTT before October 24 and the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) after that. Finally, we will do the nose-up trial leading to the first flight, sources said.
The aircraft is expected to do the LSTT at 150 kmph and the HSTT at 250 kmph.*
Though the LSP-7 was scheduled to fly in August, the project hit an air pocket when fuel leak was noticed in one of the aircraft during taxiing. We had to ground the entire Tejas fleet as safety was our top-most priority. We lost the months of May, June, July and August with not much of testing happening, sources said.
Engineers had to re-arrange the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes to avoid them coming into contact.
In the meantime, the IAF minced no words about quality concerns of Tejas user versions, putting its makers Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in a spot of bother. HAL took too much time in absorption of changes suggested by the user. We have definite issues with the pace of the programme. Each aircraft is now taking 24 months right from the part assembly stage. Once, Tejas is inducted into the IAF, we want HAL to put in an improvised production line, a senior Indian Air Force official said.
To iron out all the issues, a top-level Tejas review meeting was held in New Delhi this week with all the project partners in attendance.
The IAF, which has already begun the preparations for the Tejas squadron, will have to wait for some more time before taking Tejas for the user trials. The No 45 Tejas Squadron, to be based in Sulur near Coimbatore, will be known as Flying Daggers.

*FIRE POWER*

Team Tejas is back in Bangalore after a two-week successful weapon trials in Pokhran and Chandan ranges of Rajasthan. For the first time, three aircraft from the Tejas flight-line have dropped a laser-guided bomb (LGB), 1,000 lb bombs and practice ammunition.
The aircraft also performed a 1,200-litre drop tank release (jettison) to test the accuracy parameters. Close to 30 flights to check improvements and accuracy of hitting the targets were performed. The LGB trail was very critical, sources said.
The team will now head for advanced high-altitude weapon trials in Jamnagar and Leh. Sea trials will take place at INS Hansa in Goa with Russian-made R-73 air-to-air close combat missile.

*THE STORY SO FAR*

&#9632; First flight of Tejas TD-1: 2001
&#9632; First flight of PV-2: 2005
&#9632; First order for 20 aircraft: 2006
&#9632; Order for 20 more: 2010
&#9632; Initial Operational Clearance: 2011
&#9632; Total flights: 1,713
&#9632; Total hours: 1,000-plus
&#9632; User evaluation: Before 2012 March
(Source: MoD)

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## Tshering22

I wish they speed up the process. Even if we ignore the process pre-2001, then also ADA and HAL had 11 years till now to do everything. About time Tejas comes into IAF.


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

They have set user trials before march 2012,,,,,, completed weapons trials and going for high altitude weapons trials,,,,,, IAF is really going to rock !!!!!


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## Major Sam

best ov luck indian hope fully its series production will start in 2015

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## JanjaWeed

*Tejas&#8217; LCA Undergoes Weapons Trials in Rajasthan for Final Clearance*

The induction of the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with complete features and capabilities into the Indian Air force (IAF) is drawing nearer as weapon trials of the LCA are being conducted in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan. While the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA inducted into the IAF in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration this year, the final operational clearance (FOC) from the IAF by end of this year after successful trials.

According to the state-run Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), the current trials being conducted in the firing range of Jaisalmer in Rajasthan includes firing air-to-air missiles to test its capability to bring down hostile planes. As part of its first phase trials to fire bombs and missiles, &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA underwent tests of its aerial skills and various other tests will continue till the end of this month during which the indigenously developed fighter plane will fire laser-guided bombs. A series of tests will be held in different conditions, DRDO officials added.

The &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA will be put to intensive weapons trials at several locations including mountainous terrains before it receives its FOC. The trials will continue till the end of this month and &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA is likely to be cleared for operational service by end of 2012. IAF has also decided to induct a total of over 7 squadrons (120 aircraft) of the advanced version of the fighter aircraft, LCA MK-II with upgraded system and capabilities. The single-engine, multi-role fighter is powered by the US General Electric's GE-F-404-IN-20 engines. Apart from the two squadrons (40 aircraft) for which it has placed orders, the IAF is expected to acquire five more squadrons (100 aircraft). The second lot would be powered by the more powerful GE-F414 engines for which the DRDO placed orders late last year. Earlier this year, it was revealed that the first test-flight of the Tejas Mark-II version, with the powerful American GE F-414 engines, can only occur only by December 2014.

The &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA is single-engine, multi-role, supersonic fighter plane with tactical capabilities designed for better maneuverability. It can be armed with air-to-air, air-to-ground and anti-ship missiles, precision-guided munitions, rockets and bombs. Drop tanks can also be carried. The design and development of LCA is being conducted by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as the main contractor.

&#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA, along with Indian Defence Ministry, DRDO and HAL have faced serious criticism due to the shortcomings in the project. The &#8216;Tejas&#8217; project is almost three decades late and the mega cost inflation has seen the developmental cost of the project including the price of each aircraft to be manufactured skyrocket to $ 3.8 billion from the initial $ 124.5 million in the early 1980s. Besides, the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA is only around 60 per cent indigenous and it is powered by American GE engines since the indigenous Kaveri engine was not powerful enough. Besides that, even with the advanced Tejas Mark-II version to be readied by 2016, it will still fall behind top combat aircraft in the IAF fleet including Sukhoi-MKI, Multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) which IAF will have in the near future.

Tejas LCA Undergoes Weapons Trials in Rajasthan for Final Clearance - Defence Now


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## faithfulguy

I'm surprised that India is still testing this plane. I thought the series production had started this year. I was totally wrong.


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## BATMAN

INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> They have set user trials before march 2012,,,,,, completed weapons trials and going for *high altitude weapons trials*,,,,,, IAF is really going to rock !!!!!



I never heard of on ground wepons testing of a fighter!
simply mentioning wepoons test would have been fine! 
Why stress on high altitude?


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## JanjaWeed

BATMAN said:


> I never heard of on ground wepons testing of a fighter!
> simply mentioning wepoons test would have been fine!
> *Why stress on high altitude?*



very much necessary. high altitude operation is not a cup of tea for every fighter aircraft. remember mirage's successful high altitude ops during kargil war? just trying to make sure that LCA stands the test, should they require to do similar kinda ops.... just in case!!

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## Tshering22

BATMAN said:


> I never heard of on ground wepons testing of a fighter!
> simply mentioning wepoons test would have been fine!
> Why* stress on high altitude?*



Because taking off with weapons from our Himalayan region is very different compared to taking off with weapons from say an IAF base in Punjab or Rajasthan. Due to this variable terrain, IAF tests are usually cumbersome such that all our fighters suit our diverse terrains and atmospheric conditions.

---------- Post added at 04:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------




faithfulguy said:


> I'm surprised that India is still testing this plane. I thought the series production had started this year. I was totally wrong.



The testing is usually endless. It continues even after induction in our case. Like our ballistic missiles; many of them have been long inducted but regular testing is done. Due to so many tests, we never know when one is being inducted and when one is ALREADY inducted. 

---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 AM ----------




usama waqas said:


> best ov luck indian hope fully its series production will start in 2015



Two years before the timeline you mention. 2015 is the timeline for the Mk.2 to start which will be a totally different ballgame.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

hope they finish the high altitude (leh,ladakh) and the sea trials by dec 2011.


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## Dazzler

Tshering22 said:


> Because taking off with weapons from our Himalayan region is very different compared to taking off with weapons from say an IAF base in Punjab or Rajasthan. Due to this variable terrain, IAF tests are usually cumbersome such that all our fighters suit our diverse terrains and atmospheric conditions.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> The testing is usually endless. It continues even after induction in our case. Like our ballistic missiles; many of them have been long inducted but regular testing is done. Due to so many tests, we never know when one is being inducted and when one is ALREADY inducted.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Two years before the timeline you mention. 2015 is the timeline for the Mk.2 to start which will be a totally different ballgame.



Can you elaborate on how LCA MK-ii will "a different ball game"?


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## faithfulguy

Tshering22 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> The testing is usually endless. It continues even after induction in our case. Like our ballistic missiles; many of them have been long inducted but regular testing is done. Due to so many tests, we never know when one is being inducted and when one is ALREADY inducted.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 AM ----------



If that is the case, I think India should concentrating on Western weapons. India won't have to worry about keeping on testing them as they were already tested in the battlefields. Don't get the Russian stuff as they were only proven to be shot down by western planes in most battle fields.


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## raavan

I believe the reason India has invested so much money in this project without shutting it down is due to the design of this fighter .Its not a very easy job to design a light fighter aircraft as the smaller mass is very susceptible to turbulent flows of wind. BUT what this design generates is a very low radar cross section. Remember what US general said regarding MIG 21 bis, that how it is practically invisible to legacy F-16 radars. Well this aircraft has even lower RCS. This fact might not be highlighted now but wait until .......


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## GORKHALI

faithfulguy said:


> If that is the case, I think India should concentrating on Western weapons. India won't have to worry about keeping on testing them as they were already tested in the battlefields. Don't get the Russian stuff as they were only proven to be shot down by western planes in most battle fields.



Just like taiwan ??I mean even to change tires of their F16 ,they need amerikan nod .??Western weapons are according to their needs ,our weapons according to our need..

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## mautkimaut

faithfulguy said:


> If that is the case, I think India should concentrating on Western weapons. India won't have to worry about keeping on testing them as they were already tested in the battlefields. Don't get the Russian stuff as they were only proven to be shot down by western planes in most battle fields.


Taiwan banked on US to provide you weapons..what happened when US buckled under the Chinese pressure and refused to give you any weapon.India does not want that situation

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## Lord Of Gondor

nabil_05 said:


> Can you elaborate on how LCA MK-ii will "a different ball game"?


You and,most of us have to wait till 2014 to Know more about this project


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## WHITESMOKE

faithfulguy said:


> If that is the case, I think India should concentrating on Western weapons. India won't have to worry about keeping on testing them as they were already tested in the battlefields. Don't get the Russian stuff as they were only proven to be shot down by western planes in most battle fields.


 
So finally you came to straight point and acted as a true sales boy.. Why you all the time try to say sweet words before showing original colours.. instead you can come to any thread and paste the same thing.. after all, the conclusion of your every post is "buy western.." which you too know wont be true in all...


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## brational

LCA Sooner the better..


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## SEAL

What a headline "fuel leak plugged"


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## sancho

Firemaster said:


> It will be more than just a TD with Air intakes slightly redesigned for better air flow to increase AOA. The Plane which would be delivered to IAF be based on this



Actually the AoA isn't that of an issue and it will be dealt at the moment with new flight control systems integrated into the latest prototypes. Tejas achieved 22° for the IOC if I remember correctly, while the aim was 24° and compared to other fighters the difference isn't that much either (Mirage 2000 26°, Gripen limited to the same, Rafale and EF to 30+°).
The changes on the air intake to increase the airflow are needed for the new GE 414 engine and that will fix the problems with drag, which limits LCA Vmax today.

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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Actually the AoA isn't that of an issue and it will be dealt at the moment with new flight control systems integrated into the latest prototypes. Tejas achieved 22° for the IOC if I remember correctly, while the aim was 24° and compared to other fighters the difference isn't that much either (Mirage 2000 26°, Gripen limited to the same, Rafale and EF to 30+°).
> The changes on the air intake to increase the airflow are needed for the new GE 414 engine and that will fix the problems with drag, which limits LCA Vmax today.



Well wasn't that blamed on the low thrust produced by the Ge 404 engine? I think the AoA might exceed 24 degrees with the new FCS and engine. But I dont thing the Tejas is going to enter int a turning fight because of the inherent energy bleeding of the delta wing design.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well wasn't that blamed on the low thrust produced by the Ge 404 engine?


No, the GE 404 engine offers more than enough thrust (more thrust than Gripen C/D or JF 17 B1), but the LCA turned out to be heavier and as it seems more draggy than planned and that's why IAF wanted more thrust to achieve the development goals. IN on the other hand wanted increased internal fuel, which was important for their N-LCA re-design and operating it from a STOBAR carrier.


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## nomi007

1981-2013
its a more than 30 years of time
shameful progress


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## trident2010

nomi007 said:


> 1981-2013
> its a more than 30 years of time
> *shameful progress*



Progress is never shameful my friend !!

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## rockstarIN

nomi007 said:


> 1981-2013
> its a more than 30 years of time
> shameful progress



Check other fighters development period, i.e EF & Rafale..when did they started and come back here.


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## Lord Of Gondor

nomi007 said:


> pamper is available


For you,nothing's sufficient
Try to go to kamra and see if you can build any part of any aircraft,they build there........if you cannot then show some respect for those who can

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## Vibs

nabil_05 said:


> Can you elaborate on how LCA MK-ii will "a different ball game"?



Still very speculative. But as we know LCA at present barely makes it to a 4th gen category. The Mk II is expected to bring it closer to gen 4.5 specs using modifications on the existing airframe and bringing in advanced radar and weapon systems. 
While again, it's not meant to be a strike/air superiority aircraft, Mk2 is expected to be a very lethal interceptor custom made for the Himalayan battlefield.


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## Black Widow

nomi007 said:


> 1981-2013
> its a more than 30 years of time
> shameful progress



Yawn! old rant.... When was fund released for LCA???? It took 10 years for govt to approve LCA. Fund was released 12 years after first LCA was thought (1981)....


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## Mani2020

Vibs said:


> Still very speculative. But as we know LCA at present barely makes it to a 4th gen category. T*he Mk II is expected to bring it closer to gen 4.5 specs using modifications on the existing airframe and bringing in advanced radar and weapon systems. *
> While again, it's not meant to be a strike/air superiority aircraft, Mk2 is expected to be a very lethal interceptor custom made for the Himalayan battlefield.



Do you really know that what are the classifications of a 4.5th generation aircraft?
United States defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments

As far as i know the AESA radar for Tejas is nowhere in the picture ,it was once when Israel was ready to provide it but later prohibitations were put on the demand of US, other characteristics are also bit ambiguous


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## Trucker

Mani2020 said:


> Do you really know that what are the classifications of a 4.5th generation aircraft?
> United States defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments
> 
> As far as i know the AESA radar for Tejas is nowhere in the picture ,it was once when Israel was ready to provide it but later prohibitations were put on the demand of US, other characteristics are also bit ambiguous



mk-2 will have an aesa radar.


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## Mani2020

Trucker said:


> mk-2 will have an aesa radar.



From which country? and the exact type?


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## INDTAM

Mani2020 said:


> From which country? and the exact type?



Indigenous. Our Air Chief has asked DRDO to build one IAF Chief Urges Development of AESA radar and Engine | Indian Defence

No need to tell you which country will help us to develop that tech!


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## vishal111

Mani2020 said:


> From which country? and the exact type?


india is developing its own aesa radar jus wait for 2 years you will get the exact type details
Livefist: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed


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## Trucker

Mani2020 said:


> From which country? and the exact type?



Tejas Mk2 MRCAs update !! Must Read !!!


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## Mani2020

INDTAM said:


> Indigenous. Our Air Chief has asked DRDO to build one IAF Chief Urges Development of AESA radar and Engine | Indian Defence
> 
> No need to tell you which country will help us to develop that tech!



Its in the starting phase, still to see the tangible form and then testing ,long way to go .....not before 2015 anywayz better luck with the program


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## ganimi kawa

Mani2020 said:


> Do you really know that what are the classifications of a 4.5th generation aircraft?
> United States defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as
> 
> 1.fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar,
> 
> As far as i know the AESA radar for Tejas is nowhere in the picture ,it was once when Israel was ready to provide it but later prohibitations were put on the demand of US,
> 
> 2.high capacity data-link,
> 
> 3.enhanced avionics, and
> 
> 4."the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments




1. You are right AESA is nowhere in the picture, but it is definitely lurking in the shadows.

a. Firstly, about Israel, I presume this is the news you are talking about.

If so, then here is the highlight....

The Israeli defence ministry has* blocked the potential export sale of Israel Aerospace Industries' EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array radar *to a number of countries, with its action having an immediate impact on the Indian market.


So, only the EL 2052 is blocked not the help and transfer of AESA tech.


b. Here is a piece about "project Uttam" and help sought from EADS or Israel.

Livefist: Report: Elta Or EADS To Help Build Tejas AESA, Project Codenamed "Uttam"


You see, israel will deny us the 2052, but co develop a new AESA at the same time.. Example the denial of arrow and development of LRTR and LR SAM.

And if EADS gets the MMRCA, they will be more than happy to grab this contract!


c. Meanwhile the Indian strides in AESA technology are yeilding results. Apart of quite a few AESA radars developed here is one of the biggest shockers...

"Demonstration of the functioning of Gallium Nitride high-electron mobility transistor ." (from annual address of DRDO chief Jan 2011)

I'll explain rest of the points about avionics and such later.


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## Trucker

Mani2020 said:


> Its in the starting phase, still to see the tangible form and then testing ,long way to go .....not before 2015 anywayz better luck with the program



of course,after 2015 production will be started if we count the delays even.if not indigenous then either israeli or some french aesa radar.


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## INDTAM

Mani2020 said:


> Its in the starting phase, still to see the tangible form and then testing ,long way to go .....not before 2015 anywayz better luck with the program



Better late than never

What say mate?


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## OrionHunter

> We lost the months of May, June, July and August with not much of testing happening, sources said.


*Four months to plug a frikkin fuel leak?* Jeeez! No wonder it's taken four decades to get this toy off the ground!!


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## INDTAM

TEJAS is late in coming but when it does it will be JUST IN TIME


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## Dash

ganimi kawa said:


> 1. You are right AESA is nowhere in the picture, but it is definitely lurking in the shadows.
> 
> a. Firstly, about Israel, I presume this is the news you are talking about.
> 
> If so, then here is the highlight....
> 
> The Israeli defence ministry has* blocked the potential export sale of Israel Aerospace Industries' EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array radar *to a number of countries, with its action having an immediate impact on the Indian market.
> 
> 
> So, only the EL 2052 is blocked not the help and transfer of AESA tech.
> 
> 
> b. Here is a piece about "project Uttam" and help sought from EADS or Israel.
> 
> Livefist: Report: Elta Or EADS To Help Build Tejas AESA, Project Codenamed "Uttam"
> 
> 
> You see, israel will deny us the 2052, but co develop a new AESA at the same time.. Example the denial of arrow and development of LRTR and LR SAM.
> 
> And if EADS gets the MMRCA, they will be more than happy to grab this contract!
> 
> 
> c. Meanwhile the Indian strides in AESA technology are yeilding results. Apart of quite a few AESA radars developed here is one of the biggest shockers...
> 
> "Demonstration of the functioning of Gallium Nitride high-electron mobility transistor ." (from annual address of DRDO chief Jan 2011)
> 
> I'll explain rest of the points about avionics and such later.



+ We will also get some AESA techs transfer by MRCA TOT....


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## tvsram1992

Mani2020 said:


> From which country? and the exact type?


 Russian,US,French,Europe,Indigenous , our plane our wish we ll not mention which AESA radar we will use .


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## Rajaraja Chola

faithfulguy said:


> If that is the case, I think India should concentrating on Western weapons. India won't have to worry about keeping on testing them as they were already tested in the battlefields. Don't get the Russian stuff as they were only proven to be shot down by western planes in most battle fields.


 
No buddy the western media does its bit to cover up the shortcomings of western weapon system for business stakes....
Many of the shooting down of western aircraft with obselete russian weapons are described in their media as ENGINE FAULT or some other reasons....
However russian hardware along with western software is the best combination ever available....
SU-30mki is the best example of the combination...
I doubt even f-16 or 18 stands against MKI....


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## acetophenol

can tejas carry A2A missiles is all its hardpoints?


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## Vasily Zaytsev

acetophenol said:


> can tejas carry A2A missiles is all its hardpoints?




In a point defence role, it will only carry A-A missiles...................


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## acetophenol

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> In a point defence role, it will only carry A-A missiles...................



so how will the computer on board distinguish whether its an missile or bomb in a hardpoint?


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## Tshering22

Mani2020 said:


> From which country? and the exact type?



Not a finished product, but a derivative to be developed jointly. As for the country, I'll give you a clue set:

- you lot always complain about them scheming against you
- you lot always consider them as the "other threat"
- you lot always accuse them of running an illegal country that you don't recognize. 

Take the guess.


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## Trucker

Tshering22 said:


> Not a finished product, but a derivative to be developed jointly. As for the country, I'll give you a clue set:
> 
> - you lot always complain about them scheming against you
> - you lot always consider them as the "other threat"
> - you lot always accuse them of running an illegal country that you don't recognize.
> 
> Take the guess.



i read about french radar


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## acetophenol

nomi007 said:


> tejas 1 is in production phase and facing critical problems
> its mean tejas mk-2 will face more problems
> tell me honestly tht is tejas is indigenous jet
> when engine is American,radar & avionics are of israel
> its mean u only made delta shape structure in 30 years
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 AM ----------
> 
> 2nd thing to rafael member that soon i will answer you of removing my post



aree bhai,the hi-quality tejas "stickers" is indian made.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

acetophenol said:


> so how will the computer on board distinguish whether its an missile or bomb in a hardpoint?


 

That is decided by the radar and missile interface.............just take some efforts and google.............and you will know............It is very tiring to type all the details here................

The interface of the missile with the radar and the onboard computer.............in simple terms.........just like when you connect an external accessory to a computer...............whether its a speaker..........hard disk...........mouse or keyboard..............or monitor...........or USB..................very layman and crude analogy...........


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## acetophenol

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> That is decided by the radar and missile interface.............just take some efforts and google.............and you will know............It is very tiring to type all the details here................
> 
> The interface of the missile with the radar and the onboard computer.............in simple terms.........just like when you connect an external accessory to a computer...............whether its a speaker..........hard disk...........mouse or keyboard..............or monitor...........or USB..................very layman and crude analogy...........



so all one has to do is just connect the weapon to the hardpoint and the onboard computr will show it?
(aree i am "chote"!help me yaar!)

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------




Vasily Zaytsev said:


> That is decided by the radar and missile interface.............just take some efforts and google.............and you will know............It is very tiring to type all the details here................
> 
> The interface of the missile with the radar and the onboard computer.............in simple terms.........just like when you connect an external accessory to a computer...............whether its a speaker..........hard disk...........mouse or keyboard..............or monitor...........or USB..................very layman and crude analogy...........



so all one has to do is just connect the weapon to the hardpoint and the onboard computr will show it?
(aree i am "chote"!help me yaar!)


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## Roybot

Rail launchers for missiles and ejector racks for bombs.


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## acetophenol

roy_gourav said:


> Rail launchers for missiles and ejector racks for bombs.



does that mean tejas cant carry missile on all hardpoints?


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## Roybot

acetophenol said:


> does that mean tejas cant carry missile on all hardpoints?



Am not quite sure but if you can mount rail launchers on all the hard points, then I don't see why not


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## acetophenol

roy_gourav said:


> Am not quite sure but if you can mount rail launchers on all the hard points, then I don't see why not



so rail launcher is something that we attach to the hard point and not a type of hardpoint?

the reason i am so concerned is that,in every pic of tejas aa missiles are carried in the extreme end hardpoints only.since tejas may be our principle interceptor,we may need it to carry more than 2 missiles.


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## Roybot

acetophenol said:


> so rail launcher is something that we attach to the hard point and not a type of hardpoint?
> 
> the reason i am so concerned is that,in every pic of tejas aa missiles are carried in the extreme end hardpoints only.since tejas may be our principle interceptor,we may need it to carry more than 2 missiles.



Yes, again am not too sure, but you can attach either rail launcher/ bomb racks on the hard point mountings depending on the mission.

And am pretty sure it can carry more than 2 missiles.



> T*he &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LCA is single-engine, multi-role, supersonic fighter plane with tactical capabilities designed for better maneuverability. It can be armed with air-to-air, air-to-ground and anti-ship missiles, precision-guided munitions, rockets and bombs.*



Tejas LCA Undergoes Weapons Trials in Rajasthan for Final Clearance - Defence Now


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## sancho

acetophenol said:


> the reason i am so concerned is that,in every pic of tejas aa missiles are carried in the extreme end hardpoints only.since tejas may be our principle interceptor,we may need it to carry more than 2 missiles.



They have just integrated WVR missiles so far and these will be carried at the external hardpoints, while the other hardpoints a the wings will be able to carry BVR missiles, so no need to worry about that. As roy_gourav correctly said, you can attach the launchers and racks to all hardpoints, but not every hardpoint has the weightlimit to carry any kind of weapons. The external hardpoint as the pic shows, can carry 1 bomb rack for small dumb bombs, but any heavier bomb can't be used, even if the hardpoint can handle bomb racks.
Normal weapon configs of LCA MK1 should be:

A2A

2 x WVR missiles (external wingstations)
4 x BVR missiles (mid and inner wingstations)
1 x fuel tank (centerline station)


A2G

2 x WVR missiles (external wingstations)
2 x LGBs (mid wingstations)
2 x fuel tanks (inner wingstations)
1 x targetting pod (pod station)


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## SpArK

*First flight of LCA NP-1 delayed*

Oct 27, 2011 


BANGALORE: It&#8217;s official&#65533; *The undercarriage of the naval version (Naval Prototype NP-1) of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is bulky by 400-500 kg.&#65533; The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which are jointly developing NP-1, is burning the midnight oil to iron out what they call &#8220;nagging developmental issues&#8221;.
*

&#65533;NP-1 is a trainer with tandem seating and NP-2 will be a singleseat fighter


&#65533;Insiders associated with the programme* attributed the delay in NP-1&#8217;s first flight to the undercarriage, built by HAL.&#65533; &#8220;In September 2010, we observed that the undercarriage was over-sized.&#65533; During traction-retraction and the undercarriage&#8217;s incorporation into the fuselage, there were many surprises awaiting us.*

This is a very critical piece with the hitting impact on the ship going to be much higher,&#8221; an official with HAL&#8217;s Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) said. The official said the issues related to the arrestor hook, landing gear and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow better low-speed handling) were being addressed completely. With the Naval Project Team (NPT) monitoring every bit of the NP-I closely, the official told Express that all future aircraft in the naval programme would come with a new undercarriage.

&#65533;In September, NP-1 had successfully completed the engine ground run (EGR) and the taxi trials are set to begin soon&#65533; &#8220;We will fly the NP-I with the same undercarriage making some slight corrections.

&#65533;*If a smaller undercarriage has to be integrated now, it will delay the programme further. Young boys are putting their hearts out and working seven days a week*

&#65533;Making planes are not child&#8217;s play,&#8221; he added.&#65533; Sources at ADA say efforts are in full swing to make the NP-1 fly ahead of Navy Day (December 4). Captain Maolankar of National Flight Test Centre is likely to fly the NP-1 on its maiden flight.

&#65533;During the roll-out of the NP-1 on July 6, 2010, an excited Defence Minister A K Antony had announced that he was confident that the ADA-HAL-Navy team would make it fly by December end (2010). &#8220;It will be the best New Year gift to the nation,&#8221; Antony had said then. With yet another New Year throttling down for a landing, it is left to be seen whether Team NP-1 can gift Antony an X&#8217;mas gift in the form of a first flight.


First flight of LCA NP-1 delayed - southindia - Bangalore - ibnlive

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## rockstarIN

> If a smaller undercarriage has to be integrated now, it will delay the programme further. Young boys are putting their hearts out and working seven days a week



..........


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## satishkumarcsc

SpArK said:


> *First flight of LCA NP-1 delayed*
> 
> Oct 27, 2011
> 
> 
> BANGALORE: It&#8217;s official&#65533; *The undercarriage of the naval version (Naval Prototype NP-1) of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is bulky by 400-500 kg.&#65533; The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which are jointly developing NP-1, is burning the midnight oil to iron out what they call &#8220;nagging developmental issues&#8221;.
> *
> 
> &#65533;NP-1 is a trainer with tandem seating and NP-2 will be a singleseat fighter
> 
> 
> &#65533;Insiders associated with the programme* attributed the delay in NP-1&#8217;s first flight to the undercarriage, built by HAL.&#65533; &#8220;In September 2010, we observed that the undercarriage was over-sized.&#65533; During traction-retraction and the undercarriage&#8217;s incorporation into the fuselage, there were many surprises awaiting us.*
> 
> This is a very critical piece with the hitting impact on the ship going to be much higher,&#8221; an official with HAL&#8217;s Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) said. The official said the issues related to the arrestor hook, landing gear and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow better low-speed handling) were being addressed completely. With the Naval Project Team (NPT) monitoring every bit of the NP-I closely, the official told Express that all future aircraft in the naval programme would come with a new undercarriage.
> 
> &#65533;In September, NP-1 had successfully completed the engine ground run (EGR) and the taxi trials are set to begin soon&#65533; &#8220;We will fly the NP-I with the same undercarriage making some slight corrections.
> 
> &#65533;*If a smaller undercarriage has to be integrated now, it will delay the programme further. Young boys are putting their hearts out and working seven days a week*
> 
> &#65533;Making planes are not child&#8217;s play,&#8221; he added.&#65533; Sources at ADA say efforts are in full swing to make the NP-1 fly ahead of Navy Day (December 4). Captain Maolankar of National Flight Test Centre is likely to fly the NP-1 on its maiden flight.
> 
> &#65533;During the roll-out of the NP-1 on July 6, 2010, an excited Defence Minister A K Antony had announced that he was confident that the ADA-HAL-Navy team would make it fly by December end (2010). &#8220;It will be the best New Year gift to the nation,&#8221; Antony had said then. With yet another New Year throttling down for a landing, it is left to be seen whether Team NP-1 can gift Antony an X&#8217;mas gift in the form of a first flight.
> 
> 
> First flight of LCA NP-1 delayed - southindia - Bangalore - ibnlive



Love the Navy's farsightedness. If they had waited for the engine to start the research it would have been delayed like this. They went on with the F 404 now and later plans for new engine. This is one of the most appreciable effort from the navy side.

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## rockstarIN

^^

First I thought N-LCA is a waste of money & energy.

But our Navy is very keen on indignation...


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## satishkumarcsc

rockstar said:


> ^^
> 
> First I thought N-LCA is a waste of money & energy.
> 
> But our Navy is very keen on indignation...



This is very prominent even in the higher echelons of the navy command. When Adm. Nirmal Kumar Verma was asked about N-LCA he told he would love the HAL to develop something like the Rafale in their first shot, but it was practically impossible. 

So this is how development starts...first make mistakes and learn from it. Then you can apply the knowledge and experience gained into the future projects like lets say a N-AMCA?

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> ^^
> 
> First I thought N-LCA is a waste of money & energy.
> 
> But our Navy is very keen on indignation...



It is a waste of money, since it is not a capable carrier fighter and the navy knows that very well, but in our country pride has too much influence in such developments and that's why the navy will procure the fighter in numbers, although the N-LCA MK1, which is described as an tech demonstrator, would be more than enough for our aims. 
If they would have put the pride factor aside, they would simply build some tech demo prototypes to give DRDO/ADA/HAL a base for future developments in this sector and used the additional money that is now wasted by the development of several fully working and capable carrier versions of the LCA MK2, to get additional Mig 29Ks, which is the clearly more capable fighter. It would have been a win win situation for our industry and IN, because IN would be more capable as well, but now they have to stuck with less capable fighters, just to say that we operate and indigenous carrier fighter on an indigenous carrier.




satishkumarcsc said:


> So this is how development starts...first make mistakes and learn from it.



Not at all! You "normally" don't just jump into such developments without propper planning to minimise mistakes and failures, just to look at how it ends up, because any of these problems will delay the development and increase the costs. That's why you first look at what is really needed and what can be done by us and where do we need external help, so LCA development (not the fighter itself), is a perfect example how such an development should not be done, because "as a development" we completelly messed it up!

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Tejas TD1 & TD2 test flight 











More: http://www.tejas.gov.in/

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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Not at all! You "normally" don't just jump into such developments without propper planning to minimise mistakes and failures, just to look at how it ends up, because any of these problems will delay the development and increase the costs. That's why you first look at what is really needed and what can be done by us and where do we need external help, so LCA development (not the fighter itself), is a perfect example how such an development should not be done, because "as a development" we completelly messed it up!



Sometimes even if everything is taken into consideration, putting it into practice is always difficult. Just as we say in medical terms even if you know anatomy byheart, each and every body is different. We already have learnt a lot from the LCA so now time to learn from N-LCA. 

This is well quoted by Dr. Kota Hainarayana. Even if they could simulate the whole LCA wind tunnel tests in a computer they had to go to the actual wind tunnel each time to iron out many issues. Making an undercarriage for a naval aircraft is an arduous task. It is very hard to make sure that the undercarriage is strong at the same time it is cost-effective too.

We had and still have a huge learning curve to acheive as many of the components made for LCA could have been replaced by other labs. HA was far more capable in designing and making the Kaveri but it went to GTRE so as to expand the design base in the country. Stuff like that delayed the aircraft development. But we did get a lot from it.

R&D is not about getting a product up in air....but to keep up with the latest technologies and make robust products that the customer trusts to do its job without hindrance.

The Navy will order a minimum of 50 aircrafts in the Mk2 version. It will still be a good air defence fighter for the CBG....in later stages another aircraft can be developed to replace the MiG 29k. But this gives the basics for our scientists to work on the other projects without taking anyone's help. 

Well you dont fail a 100 times man but you learn a 100 ways things dont work which is very important for our future. The LCA program would have been completed with LM help but we were placed under sanctions after 1998 which seriously delayed the development. Why cant it happen again?

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## WHITESMOKE

nomi007 said:


> test flight test flight
> what the **** this test flight



your frustration is very natural.. How can you know what is the meaning of test flight as your country havent produced even a wing of fighter jet at your own.  But i saw the test flight of your "Home Made" helicopter.. . Was that really a test flight?

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> It is a waste of money, since it is not a capable carrier fighter and the navy knows that very well, but in our country pride has too much influence in such developments and that's why the navy will procure the fighter in numbers, although the N-LCA MK1, which is described as an tech demonstrator, would be more than enough for our aims.
> If they would have put the pride factor aside, they would simply build some tech demo prototypes to give DRDO/ADA/HAL a base for future developments in this sector and used the additional money that is now wasted by the development of several fully working and capable carrier versions of the LCA MK2, to get additional Mig 29Ks, which is the clearly more capable fighter. It would have been a win win situation for our industry and IN, because IN would be more capable as well, but now they have to stuck with less capable fighters, just to say that we operate and indigenous carrier fighter on an indigenous carrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all! You "normally" don't just jump into such developments without propper planning to minimise mistakes and failures, just to look at how it ends up, because any of these problems will delay the development and increase the costs. That's why you first look at what is really needed and what can be done by us and where do we need external help, so LCA development (not the fighter itself), is a perfect example how such an development should not be done, because "as a development" we completelly messed it up!




Typical "SANCHO" post. This is the maximum praise he can offer to LCA program... 

1. Waste of Money not capable fighter: 
I disagree: For a good high-low mix. We need something with MiG29K. In operation if we lost couple of MiG29K, NLCA will replace it (Till N-AMCA/Rafael-M/F35C is procured). By the time NLCA will be operational , It will be capable of launching Anti-ship missiles and ground attack Bombs. Everything is usefull if we use it wisely. (China still keeps its 1000+ MiG21, They can use it to outnumber enemies once there frontline fighters did there work. )

2. Jump into development without proper planning:
Who told you that DRDO does it??? I can't assume that DRDO/HAL officials are so dumb. Cost escalation is a part of defense product development. Suppose we Indian are dumb , what bout Americans? whose F35 cost has escalated like anything???.. Sancho, there are few things which are not into our control. 

I can agree on you on only one point "Indian Agencies don't keep plan B and C" with them. 

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------




WHITESMOKE said:


> your frustration is very natural.. How can you know what is the meaning of test flight as your country havent produced even a wing of fighter jet at your own.  But i saw the test flight of your "Home Made" helicopter.. . Was that really a test flight?




Don't humiliate him.... Please...

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## WHITESMOKE

Black Widow said:


> Don't humiliate him.... Please...



Well he was trying to troll in this sticky thread.. I think Trolls should not be allowed into sticky threads as these are the only few threads left where members still can read without interruption. So i had to.. sorry there was no other option.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> We already have learnt a lot from the LCA so now time to learn from N-LCA.



We have learned nothing as long as we still are only testing LCA prototypes! We can say we have really learned something, when LCA got FOC and was inducted into operational service and even during the operational service we will learn more than we have so far. 
Wrt learn from N-LCA, I have nothing against learning about a naval re-design, but N-LCA tech demonstrators, based on the current Mk1 version are more than enough for that aim. They can test changes like LEVCONs, a hook, folding wings, even take off on the shore based ski-jump or arrested landing at INS HANSA can be done. You don't need to interfere in LCA MK2s developedment, just because the navy has some requirements too and you don't need to pay that much to develop an N-LCA MK2 for operational service. All this is simply unnecessary and is counter productive for the general LCA development!



satishkumarcsc said:


> HA was far more capable in designing and making the Kaveri but it went to GTRE so as to expand the design base in the country. Stuff like that delayed the aircraft development. But we did get a lot from it.



Bad planning as I said, but again, they didn't learned anything yet, because they have no engine that would be useful for any aircraft in Indian forces, that's why the search for foreign help. Same goes for the radar development, that also went wrong and needed foreign help, so how can we say we learned something, when we haven't achieved anything in these fields yet?
LCA as a fighter has the potential to be very good, but we are the most limiting factor to get it out, so we have to change the way we think and plan first, before we can really learn something. The sad point is, that we did it the right way with Dhruv and simply had to do it the same way again, but unfortunately we didn't.




satishkumarcsc said:


> The LCA program would have been completed with LM help but we were placed under sanctions after 1998 which seriously delayed the development. Why cant it happen again?



The sanctions were a problem during the development, but the mistakes happend in the planning stages way earlier! We could have take proven parts from reliable countries like Russia, Israel or France, or benefit from their knowledge and experience through JV and co-developments. The same things we now do, when our own developments failed, but if we had gone that way from the start, things would have been way different today and we might have seen an LCA MK1 with Snecma M53-p2 engine (engine of Mirage 2000) licence produced in India and Elta 2032 (licence produced in India) as proven stop gap techs, until our own developments would have been ready. We wouldn't even had gone with MMRCA, since LCA MK1 would already have been inducted into IAF and if necessary, we could have also developed N-LCA with Russian help, instead of waiting for LM to get US government approval to assist us. The Russians even had way more knowledge and experience with developing carrier fighters for STOBAR carriers and would have been logical partners.
As you can see, there were waaaaaay better ways, but we simply took many wrong decisions in this development!


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Typical "SANCHO" post. This is the maximum praise he can offer to LCA program...




True and I will go on with praise the LCA as a fighter, but criticise the development, because I don't belong to those people who close the eyes in regard to the mistakes that were done, or celebrate any small step, just because it is an indigenous development! There are always 2 sides and we have to see both if we really want to improve!
Yes, LCA is a very important development for India, but although so many time and money was wasted, we still have no operational fighter, no operational engine, no operational radar and this is simply not expectable!
There are a lot of people that constantly say we have to privatize..., but lets be honest, if this development would have been done by a privat company, many of the decision makers would have been fired long ago, because of the failures and mistakes during the development. Nobody in such a company would say, it's ok because at the end it is an indigenous development and we should demand the same from companies like ADA, DRDO, or HAL. 



Black Widow said:


> 2. Jump into development without proper planning:
> Who told you that DRDO does it???



If they did it, they would have gone the same successful way Dhruv was developed!

- get foreign partners with experience and knowledge (MBB/Eurocopter)
- get proven parts first and develop indigenous later (Turbomecca engine first, Shakti engine later)
- learn from the development and improve it during the operational service (more indigenous content in Dhruv today than in the begining)
- use the knowledge and experience to take the next step based on the same plattform (re-design from Dhruv to LCH)


It was all right in front of them, but they thought they can do it alone just for pride reasons, the same reasons why we go for N-LCA although IN admits it's not a capable carrier fighter and the same reasons why they now plan with AMCA, although they lack nearly in every field to develop such a NG fighter.


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## ramu

Sancho, the urge to build not just a tech demonstrator but a complete usable product is a passion and you will know this if you develop a product. The high you get out of making something work that someone makes use of and the satisfaction from it is unparalleled. Having said that, India should have planned better and should have put in a lot more effort in understanding foreign technology before jumping into the game of indigenous development. 

The fundamental flaws in our system is zero competition from local industry. The GoI is to blame for this. The defence industry in India helped Russia and Israel but not our own. We have made Israel a great defence exporter thanks to our continued support and their hard work not necessarily in the same order. But the point is why are we not encouraging our automobile manufacturers to supply aerospace parts. Why are we not outsourcing the "tough" problems that drdo was unable to solve to private players first before taking Russian assistance? 

I think the problem is the middle tier leadership in defence labs plus the babus who lack an understanding of what needs to be done to get from point A to point B. Vision is nothing without execution. I am sure a few here will not like my comments but who cares.


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## sancho

ramu said:


> Sancho, the urge to build not just a tech demonstrator but a complete usable product is a passion and you will know this if you develop a product. The high you get out of making something work that someone makes use of and the satisfaction from it is unparalleled.



From the point of view of the developers, but what's the use if the endproduct is not good enough for the operational use? LCA will be produced in numbers for the air force, so the developers will get more than enough satisfaction from that, while the tech demo versions of N-LCA MK1 should give them anything to learn and improve themselfs. So why is more necessary, if even IN say, it's just a modest plattform and we have to spend more time and money for it, which would be more helpful in other areas?




ramu said:


> Why are we not outsourcing the "tough" problems that drdo was unable to solve to private players first before taking Russian assistance?



Which private Indian company has enough knowledge to help in the Kaveri development or the MMR development? All the hype about privatisation doesn't help us, because that is not the solution for our problems. ADA/DRDO & co ran into problems because they lacked the knowledge, so replacing them with other Indian companies that lacks the knowledge too, won't change anything right? That's why the only choice was to search for experienced foreign co-development partners, but we should have done it from the start and not so late.
Privatization is needed, no doubt about that but only as an addition, not as the only way! We can't let privat, benefit oriented companies decide what arms and techs our forces will have to use, because their requirements might be different from S. American export customers that might buy these arms and techs too. The private companies will always have the focus on exports and benefit first, while the government companies will have a way closer relation to out forces and to their requirements. The idea of having a deeper tie between IAF and HAL isn't that bad actually, because it will ensure that the developments will run into the right directions, for the main customer.
However, I agree with you that competition is needed and private companies should be able to be competitors against ADA/DRDO..., which gives MoD the chance to choose the best that is on offer and also to spread the production and not only have HAL as the sole supplier for aircrafts for example. Or to let private companies be part of government lead developments, but no matter how, we need foreign know how to learn first and that's why co-developments must be the first choice at the moment!


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## ptltejas

some product Avionics if transfered to private company for its development. for product like nuke sub brahmos private companies work there. for some other products like engine radar better to purchase from other country.

LCA required to take place of Mig 21 immediately if work is transfered to many companies the procedure of production may take speed.

One of my relative in IAF told me mig 21 are outdated and and need tobe retired immediately. these planes are scrape now. pilots fly it with keeping that they might be back or not.

If private company will come to play roal LCA will take place immediately or as early as possible.


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> some product Avionics if transfered to private company for its development. for product like nuke sub brahmos private companies work there. for some other products like engine radar better to purchase from other country.
> 
> LCA required to take place of Mig 21 immediately if work is transfered to many companies the procedure of production may take speed.
> 
> One of my relative in IAF told me mig 21 are outdated and and need tobe retired immediately. these planes are scrape now. pilots fly it with keeping that they might be back or not.
> 
> If private company will come to play roal LCA will take place immediately or as early as possible.



But we are still in the development stage so far, production might be less of a problem and privat companies will be included as well, look at Samtel for example, which makes displays for MKI and LCA. We could have been replaced the Mig 21s with LCAs long ago and I still hope that IAF will force MoD to buy more MMRCAs from the winning country directly, to replace the Migs faster, while the licence production could follow on a lower pace. But again, I'm afraid that we want to produce anything in India again, which will cause delays in the production and slower replacement of the Migs.


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## jha

Dont know how credible this is..But IDRW is considered an OK source..



> Recently sources are indicating that IAF is seriously considering increasing the numbers of Tejas aircrafts, Indian air force has already committed 40 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts, along with 8 Limited serial production aircraft.
> 
> IAF had projected 5 Squadrons (100) of Tejas MK-2, but IAF is considering adding more 2 to 3 Squadrons of Tejas aircrafts in its inventory post 2020, IAF after recalculation of fleet strength and expected delays in programs like FGFA and more time given to ADA for development of AMCA, means they will be short fall of aircrafts, IAF plans to retire all Mig-21 by 2017 and will reduce it Mig-27 strength by half in 2015 and complete phase out will be done by 2020.
> 
> ADA few years back was seen keen to work on third variant of Tejas (MK-3), in cooperating 5th generation avionics along with AESA radar. AESA radar was dropped from Tejas MK-2 since IAF and DRDO felt that it will lead to delays in the program, since radar is still in development phase; testing and production will take time. IAF is open to AESA for later variants.
> 
> AMCA which was supposed to have it first flight before 2020 will get more time for development of 5th generation avionics and technologies, to make it a true 5th gen fighter has demanded by its customer.



Tejas MK-3 is it on? | idrw.org

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## ptltejas

jha said:


> Dont know how credible this is..But IDRW is considered an OK source..
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas MK-3 is it on? | idrw.org


 
Well nice to know this.

we might think to incorporate some six generation characteristics directly. GRAFIN might play important role in all electronics, the processor based on photon made by usa and indian firm for f-35 might be useful. could take place of Miraj.

there is require to make 2 different design one present one and another interceptor will good engine and speed with less weapon load IF REQIRED....


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Bad planning as I said, but again, they didn't learned anything yet, because they have no engine that would be useful for any aircraft in Indian forces, that's why the search for foreign help. Same goes for the radar development, that also went wrong and needed foreign help, so how can we say we learned something, when we haven't achieved anything in these fields yet?
> LCA as a fighter has the potential to be very good, but we are the most limiting factor to get it out, so we have to change the way we think and plan first, before we can really learn something. The sad point is, that we did it the right way with Dhruv and simply had to do it the same way again, but unfortunately we didn't.!



Sancho - Practically what ever you have said is true, its teh reality. However lets take an example of buying some western stuff.
We all have seen that GOI will buy first in small numbers and later if this thing really works they will increase the order. If we just rewind to the moment GOI took the decision to buy I am not sure, neither you can say that IAF/IN will have agreed on the units GOI decided to buy (Say Apache order of 26, did IAF really suggest 26 is the question.) Our govt is always has a TRIAL first principle, and dont care about money overspent/ cost overrun.

Here neither GTRE for Kaveri, ADA for LCA or DRDO for LCA Radar have to be blamed imho. They have certainly learnt everything but not GOI, and over the years they have lost the hope of perduading GOI towards something..

MOD and MOF are the real culprits here as far as defence preparedness, self reliance or competativeness is concerned. 

Just wanted to shade some light here.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho - Practically what ever you have said is true, its teh reality. However lets take an example of buying some western stuff.
> We all have seen that GOI will buy first in small numbers and later if this thing really works they will increase the order. If we just rewind to the moment GOI took the decision to buy I am not sure, neither you can say that IAF/IN will have agreed on the units GOI decided to buy (Say Apache order of 26, did IAF really suggest 26 is the question.) Our govt is always has a TRIAL first principle, and dont care about money overspent/ cost overrun.
> 
> Here neither GTRE for Kaveri, ADA for LCA or DRDO for LCA Radar have to be blamed imho. They have certainly learnt everything but not GOI, and over the years they have lost the hope of perduading GOI towards something..
> 
> MOD and MOF are the real culprits here as far as defence preparedness, self reliance or competativeness is concerned.
> 
> Just wanted to shade some light here.



Hi Dash, sorry for the late reply, but I simply don't find much time these days.

However, you can't blame it on government all the time, there were mistakes from all sides! They for not choosing the right companies for developments and not going the same way they did with Dhruv, Indian industry for overestimating their capabilities and the bad planning of this project, IAF/IN for constantly increasing their requirements during the development, still prefering the fully indigenous developments and not focusing on what they really need and what is the best for the development.
If you don't want to blame those developers who failed to provide what they promised, whom else do you want to blame? The government gave them the chance (a wrong decision imo) and they failed in these certain parts of the LCA development, so they have to be accountable it, not the government who trusted them.
Similarly, the tanker competition that was scrapped by FM, was completelly silly planned by IAF, since they had asked for a budged that was too low, fielded aircrafts against eachother, although they new that the IL 78 does not meet the requirements. Again, how can we blame FM here, when they are doing their job of not wasting more money than initially was planned? And we only have to look at the incompetence of IA to procure howitzers for such a long time. Do you also blame the government that IA constantly scrap the tenders, mainly because of their own faults?
Wrt the follow deals, I didn't get your point here I guess. Imo it's much more preferable to have a government that buys additional fighters/arcrafts, tanks, or vessels, than a governmeant that plans with high numbers in the begining, but then realize that costs too much and cancel deals afterwards. Look at the EF (GER, UK, ITA), at Gripen (SWE), F35 (US, UK...), the A400 (GER, ESP..). I do think GoI/MoD make a lot of mistakes in the decision making, but at least here I don't see how it would be a bad idea to buy more things that are inducted and turned out to be good. Be it C130J, P8I, MKIs, Phalcon AWACS..., all good follow on deals!


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## sancho

Did anybody got more infos on the weapon trials?


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## Tangent

Just Returned from Flugwerft Schleissheim, Deutsches Museum ( Airplane section Deutsche Museum ) at Oberschleissheim, Munich.
There, X-31 ,an experimental plane to explore thrust vectoring, is displayed. The vectoring on it is attained by just 3 flaps at the end of the nozzle and the result, as shown in the video of Paris air show, is amazing.
Hope to see such thrust vectoring mechanism in Tejas-II. The Flaps seems to be attached separately at the end of the nozzle , but the control were in built in the Flight control programme. Can this or similar mechanism be attached as an "add-on" on any plane e.g Tejas-I or Mirage 2000 ( with updation of the flight control programme) ?

Also on display is a beautiful HF-24 Marut.


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## sancho

Tangent said:


> Just Returned from Flugwerft Schleissheim, Deutsches Museum ( Airplane section Deutsche Museum ) at Oberschleissheim, Munich.
> There, X-31 ,an experimental plane to explore thrust vectoring, is displayed. The vectoring on it is attained by just 3 flaps at the end of the nozzle and the result, as shown in the video of Paris air show, is amazing.
> Hope to see such thrust vectoring mechanism in Tejas-II. The Flaps seems to be attached separately at the end of the nozzle , but the control were in built in the Flight control programme. Can this or similar mechanism be attached as an "add-on" on any plane e.g Tejas-I or Mirage 2000 ( with updation of the flight control programme) ?
> 
> Also on display is a beautiful HF-24 Marut.



The Germans offered us TVC with the EJ 200 engine for LCA MK2, not the one of the X31, but the one of the EF. We selected the cheaper and more proven alternative, possibly because the Kaveri - Snecma deal is still the long term choice and some reports suggest that we are already working on TVC for this future engine, the question is only if it is meant for AMCA alone, or if LCA could get it too.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> The Germans offered us TVC with the EJ 200 engine for LCA MK2, not the one of the X31, but the one of the EF. We selected the cheaper and more proven alternative, possibly because the Kaveri - Snecma deal is still the long term choice and some reports suggest that we are already working on TVC for this future engine, the question is only if it is meant for AMCA alone, or if LCA could get it too.



I thought EF didnt have a thrust vector.


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## Roybot

Tangent said:


> Just Returned from Flugwerft Schleissheim, Deutsches Museum ( Airplane section Deutsche Museum ) at Oberschleissheim, Munich.
> *There, X-31 ,an experimental plane to explore thrust vectoring, is displayed. The vectoring on it is attained by just 3 flaps at the end of the nozzle and the result, as shown in the video of Paris air show, is amazing.*
> Hope to see such thrust vectoring mechanism in Tejas-II. The Flaps seems to be attached separately at the end of the nozzle , but the control were in built in the Flight control programme. Can this or similar mechanism be attached as an "add-on" on any plane e.g Tejas-I or Mirage 2000 ( with updation of the flight control programme) ?
> 
> Also on display is a beautiful HF-24 Marut.



Here we go,


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## SajeevJino

WebMaster said:


> Actually, without Russian assitance. LCA will never get to fight in the air. Right now it has no hope.  While JF-17 numbers have increased from 150 to 200-250. Thats what you call a successful aircraft.



ya you are right....we have a good ally........what about your ally China ..all of your machines are china piece.......


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## RPK



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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^
Wow!Wonderful Video!
I had not seen the ECCM at work on the Tejas or the Lightening Pod!
Thanks a ton!


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## Tangent

roy_gourav said:


> Here we go,



Thanks, this is from that museum. (I'm still working how to attach pic from my camera)
One more question..
As shown in the video of this plane - one more purpose for X-31 was to explore the possibility of 
high angle of attack without leading to the stalling of the plane ( common feature in MiG-21), and for this cancard were introduced as it could take care of the high turbulence which are common at hight AoA.
Is Cancard necessary with TV nozzles ??


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## Marxist

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with M/s SNECMA, France for co-development and co-production of* Kaveri Aero Engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II.*

Indian Air Force (lAF) has been consulted at every stage and is part of negotiation for the co-development of Kaveri engine. The draft engine technical specification has been examined and cleared by IAF and has further suggested that the engine design should have minimal impact on the LCA, Tejas airframe for future retro-fitment. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri Nand Kumar Saiin Rajya Sabha today.

source : press information bureau


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## sancho

Marxist said:


> Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with M/s SNECMA, France for co-development and co-production of* Kaveri Aero Engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II.*



Confirms what I expected, they took the cheaper GE 414 only as a stopgap engine and in smaller numbers, to get the Kaveri - Snecma engine for the long term. Good move, but with the current delays and the slow decision to start the co-development who knows when we will see LCA with them.

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## BoB's

Tejas LSP-7 to be flown in next month.









> The Light Combat Aircraft, &#8216;Tejas&#8217; LSP-7 to be flown in the first fortnight of December will be in the final configuration of the fighter plane and &#8220;almost close&#8221; to series production, scheduled to begin by the middle of 2012.
> 
> Earlier, there was an update in each of the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft. LSP-7 will have all the functionalities and the aircraft has been earmarked for user evaluation by the Indian Air Force (IAF), P.S. Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) told The Hindu here on Friday.
> 
> He was here to attend the 22 {+n} {+d} annual conference of Indian Nuclear Society- INSAC 2011.
> 
> He said so far 11 Tejas aircraft had performed 1,740 flights and crossed 1,000 flying hours. After the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), the LCA was in the &#8220;intermediate milestone&#8217; stage &#8212; between IOC-2 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC). In the meantime, it had more achievements as some more weapons were being integrated and flying envelope expanded to a higher degree of angle of attack.
> 
> Weapon trials were successfully completed in Jaisalmer recently and were currently underway in Goa, where tests on functionality of the radar were also being conducted.
> 
> Mr. Subramanyam said the first naval variant of LCA would be test-flown before year-end and ground runs have already started. There was a lot of challenge with the landing gear for naval variant as it had to land on the short runways of an aircraft carrier as also take off from there. It had features of ski jump takeoff and arrested landing.
> 
> The preliminary design had been completed for the Mark-II variant of LCA for both Air Force and Navy. It would be more maintenance-friendly, its acceleration, climb rates would be faster, turn rates better with small take-off distances. It would be fitted with a high-powered GE 414 engine, which would be integrated on both Air Force and Naval variants.
> 
> On the plans to build fifth generation medium combat aircraft, Mr. Subramanyam said the feasibility studies would be completed by March 2012. It would be a low-observable stealth aircraft and have the capability to go deep into the enemy territory undetected by long-range radars. It would be equipped with advanced avionics and conformal weapons within the fuselage.
> 
> Since it was planned to have the first flight in seven years, certain concepts of the 6 {+t} {+h} generation combat aircraft would also be incorporated. It was likely to be 10 years for it to get into production for replacing MIG-29 and Mirage fighters.



Tejas LSP-7 to be flown in next month | idrw.org

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1746 Test Flights successfully. (28-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-319,LSP1-67,LSP2-195,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-42,LSP5-50)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1741 Test Flights successfully. (25-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-315,LSP1-67,LSP2-195,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-41,LSP5-50)


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## BoB's

Troubles Slow Tejas Again 








> The photo above, taken at the National Aerospace Laboratory's wind-tunnel, shows testing this year of a Tejas model with various stores configurations. With LCA Tejas final operational clearance slipping to 2014, and the programme still struggling to meet performance specs for the second phase of initial operational clearance (IOC-2), the aircraft project has dipped into another difficult phase. According to sources, several requirements (that were watered down during IOC-1 in January), are still to be met. The parameters include wake penetration certification, all weather clearance (ironically, tests were stalled because of the monsoon earlier this year) and lightning clearance. Earlier this month, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said again that final operational clearance was delayed by a full year -- moving down to 2014. Meanwhile, the first prototype of the LCA-Navy is preparing for a first flight -- hopefully before New Year.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1750 Test Flights successfully. (30-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-322,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-42,LSP5-50)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1747 Test Flights successfully. (29-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-320,LSP1-67,LSP2-195,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-42,LSP5-50)


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1747 Test Flights successfully. (29-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-320,LSP1-67,LSP2-195,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-42,LSP5-50) 

from
LCA-Tejas has completed 1753 Test Flights successfully. (01-Dec-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-323,LSP1-67,*LSP2-196*,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-43*,*LSP5-51*)

So 3 Flight per day. HAL & DRDO working hard.

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## Secur

^^ Where do you get these reports from ? Is it on HAL's site ?


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## DarK-LorD

India's first naval fighter to take to skies this month
Press Trust of India, Updated: December 02, 2011 17:32 IST

Bangalore: Indian Navy would soon add the air element to its ranks with the first carrier-borne naval fighter aircraft "LCA Tejas&#8203; (Navy)" all set to take its maiden flight this month, a top defence official said today.

"LCA (Navy) will be flown in the month of December.I think by the end of this month, it should fly", V K Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

According to DRDO officials the aircraft is currently going through a phase of refinements based on feedback and observations during the September EGR (Engine Ground Run) of the LCA Tejas (Navy) prototype NP1. This would be followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials before the first flight.

The officials said the aircraft will have a wide variety of operational weapons and equipment like beyond visual range missiles, anti-ship missiles, conventional bombs, air defence guns and drop tanks.

Equipped with state-of-the art technologies and punch, the aircraft is designed to operate from the future Indigenous aircraft carriers the Navy plans to acquire, they said.

The team steering the project comprises of members from the Indian Navy, Indian Air Force, HAL, DRDO, Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA), CSIR Labs, educational institutions along with other public and private sector partners.

Aeronautical Development Agency, a Bangalore-based DRDO lab, is responsible for the design, development, build, ground test and flight test of both the Naval and Air Force versions of the aircraft.

India's first naval fighter to take to skies this month

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## rockstarIN

*Our Cinderella must step out
*







It has been called the "Last Chance Aircraft", and worse. Its designers and developers have been excoriated for endless delays. But the time has come to say it: In the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), India may finally have a winner.

We say "may" because the "last mile" is often the most difficult one to cross. This requires first, an emphatic ownership of the step-child by its primary operator, the Indian Air Force(IAF), its chosen manufacturer, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and its parent, the Ministry of Defence. Second, and most importantly, it needs a serious managerial boost so that the production of the aircraft- whose significant bugs have already been worked out-can be undertaken on a modern industrial scale.
*
Winner*

But the payoffs are tremendous. The country gets a highly capable multi-role fighter which it can acquire in significant numbers at a reasonable cost. It also gets a potential weapons system which it can export, for commercial gain, as well as to push its military diplomacy. It would be fair to say that the LCA is the only significant weapons system created by the country's vast defence research and production base which can compete with contemporary products -including the Chinese JF-17- and win.

Though the IAF says that it is committed to bringing the aircraft into squadron service, its current plans cater for just two squadrons of the aircraft, where they ought to be really talking of several. But that is not entirely the IAF's fault; the process of productionising the aircraft has been excruciatingly slow and past delays have made the IAF leery of putting their eggs in the LCA basket.

Till now, the ADA and HAL have built eight prototypes and six limited series aircraft and it has undertaken some 1800 takeoff and landing cycles without (touch wood) a single accident. Pilots swear by its ease of handling and maneuverability. However, according to reports, the true initial operational clearance (IOC) of the LCA has been delayed yet again. The IOC, which means the aircraft can be flown by any military pilot-not just test pilots- was technically available since January 2011, but there are a range of issues that have yet to be sorted out to the air force's satisfaction.

Now, say reports, the final operational clearance will only be available by the end of 2014. This provides an invaluable opportunity to set in train steps that will ensure that the LCA emerges as the first class product that it intrinsically is.

Simultaneously, the efforts to come up with a Mark 2 version of the aircraft with a more powerful GE F414 turbofan engine, have been completed, with the prototype slated to fly by 2014 as well. And, the naval version of the aircraft which is expected to be used by the country's indigenous aircraft carrier is also in its last stages with two prototypes to take to the air soon.

It is important to see the aircraft in comparison with the others that are flying, both as potential adversaries, as well as competitors for the export market. The aircraft under 10 tons of operational empty weight are the American F-16, the Chinese JF-17, the Swedish Gripen. Of these the LCA is the lightest at just 5.9 tons.

In part this is because of its use of carbon fibre composites. The US and the Chinese aircraft have a carbon composites content of near zero, while the more modern Gripen has 30 per cent content by weight. The LCA has 45 per cent, but as much as 90 per cent of the surface of the LCA is made of carbon fibres. This makes it light, strong and rugged, since the carbon fibre composites neither age nor corrode.

*Stealth*

But its most important quality is that it does not reflect radar beams, unlike the metallic components of aircraft. In other words, this gives the LCA a naturally low radar signature or 'stealth' characteristics. Given its small size anyway, it is, in the words of a former fighter pilot, "virtually invisible" to adversary fighters.

The use of carbon fibre gives the LCA another advantage: with its low operational empty weight, and compared to an aircraft with similar engines, the LCA has greater thrust to weight ratio. The LCA Mk 2 is likely to have 1.53, compared to the other agile fighter, the F-16's 1.64. The Gripen has 1.44 and the JF-17 has 1.28. Indeed, the LCA's rate of acceleration compares favourably with heavy two-engined fighters like the Eurofighter, which has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.64.

Carbon fibre parts do not deteriorate with age or corrode and hence the navalised version of the LCA will prove a big advantage. But it is true that carbon fibre parts are expensive to make and ideally, the process should be automated and procured in large numbers to keep their prices low. India has already invested a great deal in this technology beginning with the Dhruva programme in the mid-1980s and it is one of the world leaders in such technology.

Clearly, its natural stealth characteristics, low operating costs, maneuverability and its sensor and weapons suite make the LCA a real player in the global market. Indeed, according to an air force officer, the performance of the LCA as a fighter exceeds that of the Mirage 2000, even when the latter is upgraded.

Although the IAF has committed itself to inducting two squadrons of 40 LCAs, its actual needs are much greater. As of now the air force puts "close air support" or missions in support to the army in a low priority. But there is great need for the IAF to take up that mission seriously, especially in the mountain areas, and for that the LCA is the ideal machine. Further, the IAF's reliance on heavy and expensive fighters would make its reaction time to emergencies-cruise missile or UAV ingress at the country's periphery-rather slow because they cannot afford to base their expensive assets too close to the border. Here, the LCA provides a quick reaction option as it can be forward based.

*Export*

The most interesting aspect of the LCA is in relation to exports. This is clearly the one worldclass product which can be used to woo friends and allies, especially in the neighbourhood. The LCA gives India the option to compete with the Chinese JF-17 in a score of countries including Egypt, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka.

Indeed, there is a wider market, too, if HAL is willing to dream big and do something about it. There is a market for some 3,000 fighters to replace the MiG-21s, F-5s, early model F-16s which will retire in the coming 10-15 years in countries of Eastern Europe, Asia-Pacific and elsewhere. Getting even ten per cent of that market would be a stunning achievement for India.

But to reach that goal, India needs to think big. HAL, is still making its current limited series aircraft by hand, as it were, and it has no experience in sales and marketing abroad. As it is, there will be a need to transform HAL's work culture to make a product to the highest world standards. Equally important would be product support, again an area in which the HAL has not done too well in the past.

But all this cannot be done by the HAL itself. The LCA programme was a national endeavour to lay the foundations for India's aerospace industry. If it is to meet that mandate- and it is on the threshold of doing that- it needs attention right now from the topmost levels of government and the Ministry of Defence.


Read more at: Our Cinderella must step out : Manoj Joshi News - India Today

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## raavan

rockstar said:


> *Our Cinderella must step out
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has been called the "Last Chance Aircraft", and worse. Its designers and developers have been excoriated for endless delays. But the time has come to say it: In the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), India may finally have a winner.
> 
> We say "may" because the "last mile" is often the most difficult one to cross. This requires first, an emphatic ownership of the step-child by its primary operator, the Indian Air Force(IAF), its chosen manufacturer, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and its parent, the Ministry of Defence. Second, and most importantly, it needs a serious managerial boost so that the production of the aircraft- whose significant bugs have already been worked out-can be undertaken on a modern industrial scale.
> *
> Winner*
> 
> But the payoffs are tremendous. The country gets a highly capable multi-role fighter which it can acquire in significant numbers at a reasonable cost. It also gets a potential weapons system which it can export, for commercial gain, as well as to push its military diplomacy. It would be fair to say that the LCA is the only significant weapons system created by the country's vast defence research and production base which can compete with contemporary products -including the Chinese JF-17- and win.
> 
> Though the IAF says that it is committed to bringing the aircraft into squadron service, its current plans cater for just two squadrons of the aircraft, where they ought to be really talking of several. But that is not entirely the IAF's fault; the process of productionising the aircraft has been excruciatingly slow and past delays have made the IAF leery of putting their eggs in the LCA basket.
> 
> Till now, the ADA and HAL have built eight prototypes and six limited series aircraft and it has undertaken some 1800 takeoff and landing cycles without (touch wood) a single accident. Pilots swear by its ease of handling and maneuverability. However, according to reports, the true initial operational clearance (IOC) of the LCA has been delayed yet again. The IOC, which means the aircraft can be flown by any military pilot-not just test pilots- was technically available since January 2011, but there are a range of issues that have yet to be sorted out to the air force's satisfaction.
> 
> Now, say reports, the final operational clearance will only be available by the end of 2014. This provides an invaluable opportunity to set in train steps that will ensure that the LCA emerges as the first class product that it intrinsically is.
> 
> Simultaneously, the efforts to come up with a Mark 2 version of the aircraft with a more powerful GE F414 turbofan engine, have been completed, with the prototype slated to fly by 2014 as well. And, the naval version of the aircraft which is expected to be used by the country's indigenous aircraft carrier is also in its last stages with two prototypes to take to the air soon.
> 
> It is important to see the aircraft in comparison with the others that are flying, both as potential adversaries, as well as competitors for the export market. The aircraft under 10 tons of operational empty weight are the American F-16, the Chinese JF-17, the Swedish Gripen. Of these the LCA is the lightest at just 5.9 tons.
> 
> In part this is because of its use of carbon fibre composites. The US and the Chinese aircraft have a carbon composites content of near zero, while the more modern Gripen has 30 per cent content by weight. The LCA has 45 per cent, but as much as 90 per cent of the surface of the LCA is made of carbon fibres. This makes it light, strong and rugged, since the carbon fibre composites neither age nor corrode.
> 
> *Stealth*
> 
> *But its most important quality is that it does not reflect radar beams, unlike the metallic components of aircraft. In other words, this gives the LCA a naturally low radar signature or 'stealth' characteristics. Given its small size anyway, it is, in the words of a former fighter pilot, "virtually invisible" to adversary fighters.*
> 
> The use of carbon fibre gives the LCA another advantage: with its low operational empty weight, and compared to an aircraft with similar engines, the LCA has greater thrust to weight ratio. The LCA Mk 2 is likely to have 1.53, compared to the other agile fighter, the F-16's 1.64. The Gripen has 1.44 and the JF-17 has 1.28. Indeed, the LCA's rate of acceleration compares favourably with heavy two-engined fighters like the Eurofighter, which has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.64.
> 
> Carbon fibre parts do not deteriorate with age or corrode and hence the navalised version of the LCA will prove a big advantage. But it is true that carbon fibre parts are expensive to make and ideally, the process should be automated and procured in large numbers to keep their prices low. India has already invested a great deal in this technology beginning with the Dhruva programme in the mid-1980s and it is one of the world leaders in such technology.
> 
> Clearly, its natural stealth characteristics, low operating costs, maneuverability and its sensor and weapons suite make the LCA a real player in the global market. Indeed, according to an air force officer, the performance of the LCA as a fighter exceeds that of the Mirage 2000, even when the latter is upgraded.
> 
> Although the IAF has committed itself to inducting two squadrons of 40 LCAs, its actual needs are much greater. As of now the air force puts "close air support" or missions in support to the army in a low priority. But there is great need for the IAF to take up that mission seriously, especially in the mountain areas, and for that the LCA is the ideal machine. Further, the IAF's reliance on heavy and expensive fighters would make its reaction time to emergencies-cruise missile or UAV ingress at the country's periphery-rather slow because they cannot afford to base their expensive assets too close to the border. Here, the LCA provides a quick reaction option as it can be forward based.
> 
> *Export*
> 
> The most interesting aspect of the LCA is in relation to exports. This is clearly the one worldclass product which can be used to woo friends and allies, especially in the neighbourhood. The LCA gives India the option to compete with the Chinese JF-17 in a score of countries including Egypt, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka.
> 
> Indeed, there is a wider market, too, if HAL is willing to dream big and do something about it. There is a market for some 3,000 fighters to replace the MiG-21s, F-5s, early model F-16s which will retire in the coming 10-15 years in countries of Eastern Europe, Asia-Pacific and elsewhere. Getting even ten per cent of that market would be a stunning achievement for India.
> 
> But to reach that goal, India needs to think big. HAL, is still making its current limited series aircraft by hand, as it were, and it has no experience in sales and marketing abroad. As it is, there will be a need to transform HAL's work culture to make a product to the highest world standards. Equally important would be product support, again an area in which the HAL has not done too well in the past.
> 
> But all this cannot be done by the HAL itself. The LCA programme was a national endeavour to lay the foundations for India's aerospace industry. If it is to meet that mandate- and it is on the threshold of doing that- it needs attention right now from the topmost levels of government and the Ministry of Defence.
> 
> 
> Read more at: Our Cinderella must step out : Manoj Joshi News - India Today



The reason y i this aircraft is gonna rock.people will hear a lot about it in coming feature.

*I bet no one here can tell me the true RCS of LCA...*


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## Lord Of Gondor

And the best part is;


> according to an air force officer, the performance of the LCA as a fighter exceeds that of the Mirage 2000, even when the latter is upgraded.


If the AF officer is legitimate

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## rockstarIN

Lord Of Gondor said:


> And the best part is;
> 
> If the AF officer is legitimate



Actually the test pilots who have hours in M2k admitted it as it is easy to fly LCA than M2k


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Actually the test pilots who have hours in M2k admitted it as it is easy to fly LCA than M2k




off course it will be.

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## Lord Of Gondor

rockstar said:


> Actually the test pilots who have hours in M2k admitted it as it is easy to fly LCA than M2k


I knew that it was better to fly compared to our 80's mirage but the upgraded Mirage 2000-5's are true multi role aircraft and if the supposed IAF officer describes this as a *better fighter* compared to the Mirage2000-5,then that itself is a milestone


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## ramu

> In part this is because of its use of carbon fibre composites. The US and the Chinese aircraft have a carbon composites content of near zero, while the more modern Gripen has 30 per cent content by weight. The LCA has 45 per cent, but as much as 90 per cent of the surface of the LCA is made of carbon fibres. This makes it light, strong and rugged, since the carbon fibre composites neither age nor corrode.



I was told when I did my engineering that fatigue is the major killer for aircraft components. Aluminium parts need replacement periodically. Are carbon fiber based components immune to fatigue loading.


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## sms

ramu said:


> I was told when I did my engineering that fatigue is the major killer for aircraft components. Aluminium parts need replacement periodically. Are carbon fiber based components immune to fatigue loading.



NO material know to mankind is immune to fatigue due to mechanical stress. Modern carbon fiber based material performance better than legacy Al based alloys.

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## rockstarIN

Do no know already post here or not,

LCA going thru lightning test.


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1756 Test Flights successfully. (07-Dec-2011).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-325*,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-43,LSP5-52*)

From 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1750 Test Flights successfully. (30-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-322*,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-42,LSP5-50*)

7 days .....6 flights, good speed nowadays, they are making good of days lost due to monsoon...


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## guest11

So, is the official thrust of F414-GE-INS6 publicized yet?


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## ziaulislam

rockstar said:


> *Our Cinderella must step out
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has been called the "Last Chance Aircraft", and worse. Its designers and developers have been excoriated for endless delays. But the time has come to say it: In the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), India may finally have a winner.
> 
> We say "may" because the "last mile" is often the most difficult one to cross. This requires first, an emphatic ownership of the step-child by its primary operator, the Indian Air Force(IAF), its chosen manufacturer, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and its parent, the Ministry of Defence. Second, and most importantly, it needs a serious managerial boost so that the production of the aircraft- whose significant bugs have already been worked out-can be undertaken on a modern industrial scale.
> *
> Winner*
> 
> But the payoffs are tremendous. The country gets a highly capable multi-role fighter which it can acquire in significant numbers at a reasonable cost. It also gets a potential weapons system which it can export, for commercial gain, as well as to push its military diplomacy. It would be fair to say that the LCA is the only significant weapons system created by the country's vast defence research and production base which can compete with contemporary products -including the Chinese JF-17- and win.
> 
> Though the IAF says that it is committed to bringing the aircraft into squadron service, its current plans cater for just two squadrons of the aircraft, where they ought to be really talking of several. But that is not entirely the IAF's fault; the process of productionising the aircraft has been excruciatingly slow and past delays have made the IAF leery of putting their eggs in the LCA basket.
> 
> Till now, the ADA and HAL have built eight prototypes and six limited series aircraft and it has undertaken some 1800 takeoff and landing cycles without (touch wood) a single accident. Pilots swear by its ease of handling and maneuverability. However, according to reports, the true initial operational clearance (IOC) of the LCA has been delayed yet again. The IOC, which means the aircraft can be flown by any military pilot-not just test pilots- was technically available since January 2011, but there are a range of issues that have yet to be sorted out to the air force's satisfaction.
> 
> Now, say reports, the final operational clearance will only be available by the end of 2014. This provides an invaluable opportunity to set in train steps that will ensure that the LCA emerges as the first class product that it intrinsically is.
> 
> Simultaneously, the efforts to come up with a Mark 2 version of the aircraft with a more powerful GE F414 turbofan engine, have been completed, with the prototype slated to fly by 2014 as well. And, the naval version of the aircraft which is expected to be used by the country's indigenous aircraft carrier is also in its last stages with two prototypes to take to the air soon.
> 
> It is important to see the aircraft in comparison with the others that are flying, both as potential adversaries, as well as competitors for the export market. The aircraft under 10 tons of operational empty weight are the American F-16, the Chinese JF-17, the Swedish Gripen. Of these the LCA is the lightest at just 5.9 tons.
> 
> In part this is because of its use of carbon fibre composites. The US and the Chinese aircraft have a carbon composites content of near zero, while the more modern Gripen has 30 per cent content by weight. The LCA has 45 per cent, but as much as 90 per cent of the surface of the LCA is made of carbon fibres. This makes it light, strong and rugged, since the carbon fibre composites neither age nor corrode.
> 
> *Stealth*
> 
> But its most important quality is that it does not reflect radar beams, unlike the metallic components of aircraft. In other words, this gives the LCA a naturally low radar signature or 'stealth' characteristics. Given its small size anyway, it is, in the words of a former fighter pilot, "virtually invisible" to adversary fighters.
> 
> The use of carbon fibre gives the LCA another advantage: with its low operational empty weight, and compared to an aircraft with similar engines, the LCA has greater thrust to weight ratio. The LCA Mk 2 is likely to have 1.53, compared to the other agile fighter, the F-16's 1.64. The Gripen has 1.44 and the JF-17 has 1.28. Indeed, the LCA's rate of acceleration compares favourably with heavy two-engined fighters like the Eurofighter, which has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.64.
> 
> Carbon fibre parts do not deteriorate with age or corrode and hence the navalised version of the LCA will prove a big advantage. But it is true that carbon fibre parts are expensive to make and ideally, the process should be automated and procured in large numbers to keep their prices low. India has already invested a great deal in this technology beginning with the Dhruva programme in the mid-1980s and it is one of the world leaders in such technology.
> 
> Clearly, its natural stealth characteristics, low operating costs, maneuverability and its sensor and weapons suite make the LCA a real player in the global market. Indeed, according to an air force officer, the performance of the LCA as a fighter exceeds that of the Mirage 2000, even when the latter is upgraded.
> 
> Although the IAF has committed itself to inducting two squadrons of 40 LCAs, its actual needs are much greater. As of now the air force puts "close air support" or missions in support to the army in a low priority. But there is great need for the IAF to take up that mission seriously, especially in the mountain areas, and for that the LCA is the ideal machine. Further, the IAF's reliance on heavy and expensive fighters would make its reaction time to emergencies-cruise missile or UAV ingress at the country's periphery-rather slow because they cannot afford to base their expensive assets too close to the border. Here, the LCA provides a quick reaction option as it can be forward based.
> 
> *Export*
> 
> The most interesting aspect of the LCA is in relation to exports. This is clearly the one worldclass product which can be used to woo friends and allies, especially in the neighbourhood. The LCA gives India the option to compete with the Chinese JF-17 in a score of countries including Egypt, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka.
> 
> Indeed, there is a wider market, too, if HAL is willing to dream big and do something about it. There is a market for some 3,000 fighters to replace the MiG-21s, F-5s, early model F-16s which will retire in the coming 10-15 years in countries of Eastern Europe, Asia-Pacific and elsewhere. Getting even ten per cent of that market would be a stunning achievement for India.
> 
> But to reach that goal, India needs to think big. HAL, is still making its current limited series aircraft by hand, as it were, and it has no experience in sales and marketing abroad. As it is, there will be a need to transform HAL's work culture to make a product to the highest world standards. Equally important would be product support, again an area in which the HAL has not done too well in the past.
> 
> But all this cannot be done by the HAL itself. The LCA programme was a national endeavour to lay the foundations for India's aerospace industry. If it is to meet that mandate- and it is on the threshold of doing that- it needs attention right now from the topmost levels of government and the Ministry of Defence.
> 
> 
> Read more at: Our Cinderella must step out : Manoj Joshi News - India Today


Nice info but a little outdated. aero india 2011 and other sources shows LCA weight at 6560 kg not 5900 kg that makes LCA heavier than JF-17 and very close to gripen.
and thrust weight ratios are wrong dont believe me; calculate them your self.


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## rockstarIN

ziaulislam said:


> Nice info but a little outdated. aero india 2011 and other sources shows LCA weight at 6560 kg not 5900 kg that makes LCA heavier than JF-17 and very close to gripen.
> and thrust weight ratios are wrong dont believe me; calculate them your self.



LCA empty weight is still debatable some where even quoted 9500, T/W ratio might be calculated by the author with empty weight for all mentioned fighters.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> LCA empty weight is still debatable some where even quoted 9500, T/W ratio might be calculated by the author with empty weight for all mentioned fighters.



Ziaulislam is right, some of the specs in the article are wrong and the last official specs of LCAs empty weight was indeed around 6500Kg. The TWRs are also way too high, EF normally is given with something around 1.16 just to compare the numbers. However, realistically LCA MK1, Gripen C/D, JF 17 B1 have pretty comparable TWRs.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Ziaulislam is right, some of the specs in the article are wrong and the last official specs of LCAs empty weight was indeed around 6500Kg. The TWRs are also way too high, EF normally is given with something around 1.16 just to compare the numbers. However, realistically LCA MK1, Gripen C/D, JF 17 B1 have pretty comparable TWRs.



TWRs are messed up in the article. But as per the below LCA take off clean weight is 9500.

Tejas - Specifications - Leading Particulars and Performance


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> But as per the below LCA take off clean weight is 9500.



Yes, take off weight, not empty weight! The earlier includes the empty weight + internal fuel and other fluids, or even the weight of the pilot...

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## RPK

*Ex-Tejas test pilot Nambiar is ASTE Commandant - southindia - Bangalore - ibnlive*


BANGALORE:&#65533; The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme might get a boost with the Indian Air Force (IAF) appointing Air Cmdr Raghunathan Nambiar as the Commandant of Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE). Nambiar took charge as the 20th Commandant of ASTE, picking up his next promotion as an Air Vice Marshal (AVM)on Wednesday. Sources at the Air HQ told Express that Nambiar&#8217;s predecessor Air Cmdr B R Krishna has been posted to the National Defence College for a one-year course.
Nambiar, popularly known as Nambi, was among the first Test pilots associated with the Tejas programme. During the maiden flight of Tejas on January 4, 2001, it was Nambiar who flew the lead chase Mirage aircraft, keeping a close watch on India&#8217;s late, but light fighter jet. Tejas was then piloted by Wg Cdr Rajeev Kothiyal, now a commercial pilot and consultant to India&#8217;s national aircraft programme.
Nambiar takes over the reins of ASTE as an AVM, following the Phase-II&#65533; recommendations of the A V Singh Committee in 2008, opening up the promotional avenues among higher ranks in the IAF, the Indian Army and the Indian Navy. &#8220;The decision to raise the Commandant of ASTE to a 2-Star status (AVM) is part of IAF&#8217;s rank upgradation process. Totally, six posts of Air Marshal and equivalent, 21 Air Vice Marshal and equivalent, 61 Air Commodore and equivalent and 415 Group Captain and equivalent are in this list,&#8221; sources said. The ASTE is among the seven Test pilot schools in the world and the lone one in Asia.
Reacting to Nambiar&#8217;s appointment, Kota Harinarayana, father of Tejas programme, felt that the timing was most appropriate. &#8220;He is a brilliant pilot and a person committed to aviation technology. He is coming at a time, when we are talking in terms of creating a Squadron for Tejas. His presence in ASTE will be a boon to the programme,&#8221; he stated.
Nambiar&#8217;s partner during Tejas&#8217; early flight test days Wg Cdr (Retd) Rajeev Kothiyal said that it is for the first time in the ASTE history that a Tejas Test pilot is appointed as the Commandant. &#8220;Nambiar is the right person to see that Tejas gets inducted expeditiously into the IAF. His presence will make all the difference in terms of smooth interaction between all the agencies involved with the programme,&#8221; he said.
T*he No 45 Tejas Squadron (Flying Daggers) will be first raised at ASTE in Bangalore, before relocating it to Sulur in Coimbatore. The IAF pilots are awaiting the user trial version of the aircraft (LSP-7 & LSP-8), currently stuck in a delayed production module.*

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## Bobby

One thing I know that India is going in right direction. Developing a fighter plane is not an easy task at all. Good thing is that we are not taking any short in testing & reliability. Unlike JF17, which has not gone to all the tests. 

LCA program is getting late with several hiccups. That shows, we are developing not simply buying technology.


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## Raje amar

Bobby said:


> One thing I know that India is going in right direction. Developing a fighter plane is not an easy task at all. Good thing is that we are not taking any short in testing & reliability. Unlike JF17, which has not gone to all the tests.
> 
> LCA program is getting late with several hiccups. That shows, we are developing not simply buying technology.



please refrain from bringing any body or anything not related to the topic in the thread, otherwise it will start uncalled flame war.
we dont need to compare LCA with any one or any thing.

by the way good news is that IAF is taking inetiatives in bringing the jet to FOC.

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## sathya

Tejas program skips 2011 | idrw.org


2011 year has been one of the worst years for the India&#8217;s home grown aircraft. After gaining some speed over the years in the program, 2011 has been not less than a disaster for the countries Tejas program.

After achieving its Initial operational clearance (IOC-1) at begin of 2011, Indian air force expected program to hit the speed, but after fuel leak was detected in some of the aircrafts meant that, whole fleet was grounded for a brief period. And only after the fuel leak problem was resolved the Tejas test flights began.

But that was not the only problem, which the Tejas program faced, due to extended rains, carrying out test flights from Bangalore was slow, which brought down the original number of test flights supposed to be carried out.

Another forgettable event of 2011 was that no Tejas LSP aircrafts where delivered to air force for user trials. In 2010 HAL had delivered LSP-3/4/5. Which helped the program to get the IOC-1, but in 2011 HAL has not delivered single aircraft. In 2011 HAL was supposed to have successful flight of LSP-7 and LSP-8 and this aircraft were meant for Indian air force to carry out user trials.

LSP-7/8 are supposed to be of the same standard that of Serial production aircraft and Indian air force had put together a team of pilots and engineers to study the aircraft ,so has to develop battle doctrine for the aircraft .

Navy too has been waiting for the first flight of NP-1, which was rolled out last year. NP-1 earlier faced problems with its landing gear and then it was found that its undercarriage was overweight, HAL and ADA two major agencies involved in design and manufacturing of the this aircrafts have been in past saying that this aircrafts will have their first flight by end of 2011.

Naval NP-1 has carried out engine run few months ago, but has been facing some problems with its weight, since it is a new aircraft it was expected to have some design issues, but what is holding back flights of LSP-7/8 is still a mystery. Sources close to idrw.org have told there was delay in integration of some new sub systems in the aircrafts which lead to delays. Also since this aircrafts will be up for user trials HAL wanted LSP-7/8 aircraft to be fully as per plan and as per customer request.

IAF has also raised concerns in delays of LSP-7/8 aircrafts in a recent meeting with HAL, since Tejas user trial team has been already been formed and trained over Tejas simulators , and currently was idle since this aircrafts has been no t been delivered to them yet .

HAL was also supposed to deliver first Serial Production aircrafts (SP-1/2) in March and June 2012, but now it seems that there will be some delays has well ,this aircraft were supposed to be part of the first squadron of Tejas aircraft in Indian air force .

IAF has already delayed the Final operational clearance (FOC) by a year now due to delays faced in 2011 and IOC-2 will be achieved only in mid of 2012. HAL and ADA will start working on airframe of the Tejas MK-2 and are still believe that first flight will take by end of 2012, but IAF sources believe that will be rolled out only in 2014.


*hope 2012 will b good year for LCA*


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## rockstarIN

Lets hope in 2012 there will be 8 LCAs scrambling to the skies. LSP-7 & 8, SP-1,2,3,4, NP-1 & 2.


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1759 Test Flights successfully. (23-Dec-2011).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-325,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-55)


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1761 Test Flights successfully.(05-Jan-2011).

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## Shaurya

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1761 Test Flights successfully.(05-Jan-2011).



Flight test hote hote retire bhi jaayega lagta hai

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## 帅的一匹

LCA is a good sign for IAF, at least you have your own brand of battle plane.


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## Shaurya

wanglaokan said:


> LCA is a good sign for IAF, at least you have your own brand of battle plane.



We already had that search "marut"


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## yyetttt

2035: LCA is still flight testing, Indian officials say the jet will be ready in 2 years at most.


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## RickyBahal

jellodragon said:


> 2035: LCA is still flight testing, Indian officials say the jet will be ready in 2 years at most.



One question : China made JF17 and no one like its current version not even small countries then tell me how useful it is ???


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## yyetttt

RickyBahal said:


> One question : China made JF17 and no one like its current version not even small countries then tell me how useful it is ???


 
Correction: *Pakistan and* China made JF-17. 

Yes, there are potential customers for JF-17 like Egypt and/or Azerbaijan and/or Turkey and/or Iran. So who does not like it again?

Tell me when any of Indias "indigenious" jets attracted customers?

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

And China and Pakistan have JF-17 in their airforce.

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## Bukhari.syed

LCA was never liked by even indian air force even as it costs too much and works less..


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## RickyBahal

jellodragon said:


> Correction: *Pakistan and* China made JF-17.
> 
> Yes, there are potential customers for JF-17 like Egypt and/or Azerbaijan and/or Turkey and/or Iran. So who does not like it again?
> 
> Tell me when any of Indias "indigenious" jets attracted customers?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------
> 
> And China and Pakistan have JF-17 in their airforce.



Engine - Russian

Radar - China

All major components are Chinese but still its Pakistani jet ?



> Tell me when any of Indias "indigenious" jets attracted customers?



If IAF dnt want current version of Tejas then how can we sell it to others 



> China and Pakistan have JF-17 in their airforce.



China never uses this incapable fighter

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## sudhir007

LSP-7 first flight in 2 weeks: ADA | idrw.org

Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas should have been ideally in the hands of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots by now as part of the much-awaited user trials. But, the programme has once again lived up to its now-famous reputation of being light, but late. It was exactly on January 10 last year, a sulking IAF gave the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) to Tejas with riders longer than the cables inside the aircraft! Unhappy with the platform, the IAF chose to grant Tejas only IOC-1 status, and wanted all pending concerns thrashed out.
Its designers  Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and manufacturers  Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are struggling to push the last two limited series production (LSP-7 & 8) platforms into the flight-line, with many promised dates coming and going like day and night. These two aircraft are meant to be for user trials by IAF pilots.
Sources tell Express that the LSP-7 will fly in two weeks with engine ground runs and low-speed taxi trials (LSTT) over. We will have to do the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) and then go for the first flight in two weeks time. Its a final configuration aircraft and the integration of new systems are taking considerable time. Once the LSP-7 files, the LSP-8 too will follow suit, ADA sources claimed.
The programme is closely monitored by the project management team from IAF and reviewed every month by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff.
The IAF Chief too reviews the project once in three months in addition to regular day-to-day assessments by ADA, HAL. To earn the complete IOC mandate, all open-ended problems need to be closed. Some are critical and time-consuming. Some more missiles need to be fired at different modes, sources said.
IAF sources tell Express that Tejas will be granted the final IOC only when they are convinced that the aircraft is fit for Squadron flying and not for publicity shows. There are some more weapon trials (air-to-ground) remaining. We are looking for a complete closure of development phase ahead of the final operational clearance, sources said.
HAL defended the delays saying that they are genuine. We have done an LSTT of LSP-7 in December and will go for another one. The fuel-leak and subsequent re-cabling are over and the LSP-7 will fly with some prototype systems. Once the IAF is convinced, we will have the same systems flying on LSP-8, a senior HAL director said. The official said that the series production version of Tejas will be of new standards, incorporating the final configuration features.
Though the final IOC for Tejas is expected in June 2012, sources say that this could go well beyond October.

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## RPK

*For Tejas, the wait continues - Bangalore - DNA
*

January 10, 2011, was supposed to be a big day for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme as it was on this day that the aircraft&#8212;under development for more than two decades&#8212;was to get the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), signalling that it has crossed the first hurdle to join Indian Air Force (IAF).

However, on that day, the aircraft was given only partial clearance (IOC-1) for failing to meet the IAF&#8217;s requirement. A year after, it is stuck with the IOC-1 tag.

Now, to enter the IAF, the aircraft will first have to get another IOC, which will be followed by rigorous flight testing by IAF pilots. It will also have to pitch for Final Operational Clearance (FOC), stating it is squadron-ready.

Again, to get close to being squadron-ready, the agencies involved in the development of the aircraft will have to deliver two versions of LCA limited series production&#8212;LSP-7 and 8&#8212;to Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment (ASTE), IAF&#8217;s flight testing institute.

However, the two aircraft&#8212;LSP-7 and 8&#8212;are yet to take to the skies. They were scheduled to be tested last year and released to the ASTE by now for user trials and for being certified as squadron-fit.

Ministry of defence sources told DNA that LSP-7 would take to the skies in a few weeks, following which it would be released to ASTE for carrying user trials.

During the user trials, the &#8216;angle of attack&#8217; would be increased from the present 20°-22° to 26°-28° degrees and gravitation (G) limit would be raised from the present 6Gs to 8Gs.

Sources said if the aircraft are realised for user trials as per schedule, FOC could be obtained in two years.

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## rcrmj

RickyBahal said:


> Engine - Russian
> 
> Radar - China
> 
> All major components are Chinese but still its Pakistani jet ?
> 
> 
> 
> If IAF dnt want current version of Tejas then how can we sell it to others
> 
> 
> 
> China never uses this incapable fighter


for LCA
engine = American
weapon = russian
radar = Isreal
Avionics = Isreal
FBW = American
Areodynamics = French
paint = Made in China

if you can claim this 3rd gen upgrade is 'indigenous' why cant Pakistan claim JF-17 is made in Pakistan?

PLAAF not using JF-17 doesnt mean its incapable, its called wise resource alocation as we already have J-10A/B, J-11A/B, JH-7 and others...

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## Black Widow

rcrmj said:


> for LCA
> engine = American
> weapon = russian
> radar = Isreal
> Avionics = Isreal
> FBW = American
> Areodynamics = French
> paint = Made in China
> 
> if you can claim this 3rd gen upgrade is 'indigenous' why cant Pakistan claim JF-17 is made in Pakistan?
> 
> PLAAF not using JF-17 doesnt mean its incapable, its called wise resource alocation as we already have J-10A/B, J-11A/B, JH-7 and others...




You are ill-informed
engine = American :-> Later replace with Indian, Even Rafael used the same engine once.
weapon = russian :-> Indian LGB and Indian AAMs are ready to integrate
radar = Isreal :-> Wrong, Processor is Israeli, Code is Indian, Like your PC has intel chip.
Avionics = Isreal :-> Wrong, all Avionics are Indian
FBW = American :-> Wrong Again, FBW is Indian
Areodynamics = French :-> Wrong Again, we paid for their assistance, So its ours. 
paint = Made in China :-> Lol Made in china paints are toxic..  

Agree with your second part, FC1 is not bad only coz china is not using it. Its a good platform... 


---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------




jellodragon said:


> Correction: *Pakistan and* China made JF-17.
> Yes, there are potential customers for JF-17 like Egypt and/or Azerbaijan and/or Turkey and/or Iran. So who does not like it again?
> Tell me when any of Indias "indigenious" jets attracted customers?
> ---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------
> And China and Pakistan have JF-17 in their airforce.



Till date what every one knows that FC1 was made by china for Pakistan use. Till date no one knows if China has FC1 in there Air force. Like said, India has not pitch it for sale, then how come any customer come forward for it??? 

Both of your statement is false. Please bring some proof if you have any, to justify your claim.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Let it be *Cinderella's* sole thread bros, don't scare her by Thunder.
Let her dance and be beautiful & mature for prince Charming.
.
.
.
.
Thunder is made for combat not for research. So no comparison plz. Request to Pakistanis.


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## rockstarIN

STICK TO THE TOPIC PLEASE


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## sancho

rcrmj said:


> PLAAF not using JF-17 doesnt mean its incapable, its called wise resource alocation



Or in other words, China is smartly using Pakistan (main export customer) as a partner to sell JF 17 as a low cost export fighter. Operationally as you correctly pointed out, JF 17 is not important for PLAAF, since they have way more capable fighters and that's the reason why PLAAF still didn't use in in operational service or ordered it in numbers. Even if they will do it, it has marketing reasons and it might only replace some older and less important squads.
For Pakistan, JF 17 is important not because they really can co-develop it, but because they can improve their own industry with access to the Chinese ToT or the production of parts. Operationally, it offers PAF a base fighter that is cost-effective and uneffected by sanction.

*Now when you take all this together you know what LCA means to India!*

It's not important for Indian forces from an operational point of view, since they have way more capable fighters (just like PLAAF), but it is aimed to offer a base that will be uneffected by sanctions (just like PAF will have). 
Indian industry will be improved (just like Pakistani) and it is aimed to be used as an export fighter (just like China use JF 17 for exports)

*So the overall aim of both fighters is exactly the same, the difference is only how these aims will be achived, so lets keep it that way and get back to topic again!*

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## dearone4u_22

rcrmj said:


> for LCA
> paint = Made in China



Any proof of this mate or just assume that everything is made in china ..... go see a doctor for your verbal diarrhea


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## sancho

RPK said:


> Ministry of defence sources told DNA that LSP-7 would take to the skies in a few weeks, following which it would be released to ASTE for carrying user trials.
> 
> *During the user trials, the &#8216;angle of attack&#8217; would be increased from the present 20°-22° to 26°-28° degrees and gravitation (G) limit would be raised from the present 6Gs to 8Gs.*



At least some progress and as expected the AoA issue is over.

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## RPK

*
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: A YEAR AFTER TEJAS IOC-1: Sulking IAF waits for India's light, but late fighter | LSP-7 first flight in 2 weeks(!!): ADA | Delays genuine: HAL*


By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service


Bangalore: India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas should have been ideally in the hands of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots by now as part of the much-awaited user trials. But, the programme has once again lived up to its now-famous reputation of being light, but late. It was exactly on January 10 last year, a sulking IAF gave the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) to Tejas with riders longer than the cables inside the aircraft! Unhappy with the platform, the IAF chose to grant Tejas only IOC-1 status, and wanted all pending concerns thrashed out.
Its designers &#8211; Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and manufacturers &#8211; Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are struggling to push the last two limited series production (LSP-7 & 8) platforms into the flight-line, with many promised dates coming and going like day and night. These two aircraft are meant to be for user trials by IAF pilots.
Sources tell Express that the LSP-7 will fly in 'two weeks' with engine ground runs and low-speed taxi trials (LSTT) over. &#8220;We will have to do the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT) and then go for the first flight in two weeks' time. It's a final configuration aircraft and the integration of new systems are taking considerable time. Once the LSP-7 files, the LSP-8 too will follow suit,&#8221; ADA sources claimed.
The programme is closely monitored by the project management team from IAF and reviewed every month by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff. The IAF Chief too reviews the project once in three months in addition to regular day-to-day assessments by ADA, HAL. &#8220;To earn the complete IOC mandate, all open-ended problems need to be closed. Some are critical and time-consuming. Some more missiles need to be fired at different modes,&#8221; sources said.
IAF sources tell Express that Tejas will be granted the final IOC only when they are convinced that the aircraft is fit for Squadron flying and not for publicity shows. &#8220;There are some more weapon trials (air-to-ground) remaining. We are looking for a complete closure of development phase ahead of the final operational clearance,&#8221; sources said.
HAL defended the delays saying that they are genuine. &#8220;We have done an LSTT of LSP-7 in December and will go for another one. The fuel-leak and subsequent re-cabling are over and the LSP-7 will fly with some prototype systems. Once the IAF is convinced, we will have the same systems flying on LSP-8,&#8221; a senior HAL director said. The official said that the series production version of Tejas will be of new standards, incorporating the final configuration features.
Though the final IOC for Tejas is expected in June 2012, sources say that this could go well beyond October.


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## tvsram1992

Np 1 would be a great achievement


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1764 Test Flights successfully. (10-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-327,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-58)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1761 Test Flights successfully.(05-Jan-2011).

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## sathya

when is that 2 weeks getting over,

both LCA & MMRCA are keeping us damn day dreamers...


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1765 Test Flights successfully. (11-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-327,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-59*)


From 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1764 Test Flights successfully. (10-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-327,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-58)


I love to celebrate each and every test flight...

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## Rupeshkumar

yaar lagta hai apna tejas toh test flights me hi buddha ho kar retire ho jayega....


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## Black Widow

Rupeshkumar said:


> yaar lagta hai apna tejas toh test flights me hi buddha ho kar retire ho jayega....




Two things primarily noted.
1. Its not land based vehicle where faults are acceptable. 
2. Lots of ppl are waiting for accident with LCA so that they can blame DRDO/HAL and buy some fighters from abroad and make hell lot of money.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Widow said:


> Two things primarily noted.
> 1. Its not land based vehicle where faults are acceptable.
> 2. *Lots of ppl are waiting for accident with LCA so that they can blame DRDO/HAL and buy some fighters from abroad and make hell lot of money*.



Still you wont be able to avoid it even after 30 years of test/research ... No country in the world can avoid this factor.
That is a lame excuse.


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## Black Widow

danger-zone said:


> Still you wont be able to avoid it even after 30 years of test/research ... No country in the world can avoid this factor. That is a lame excuse.



1993:Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
2001:First flight	4 January 2001
2011: 10Jan Initial operation clearance. 
2012: First squadron will be delivered

Now tell me how you are counting 30 Years???


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## farhan_9909

Black Widow said:


> 1993:Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
> 2001:First flight	4 January 2001
> 2011: 10Jan Initial operation clearance.
> 2012: First squadron will be delivered
> 
> Now tell me how you are counting 30 Years???



squarden is accepted in air force after FOC nt IOC.

first 20 LCA will be delivered to IAF by mid 2014.as even a guided short range missile tests are nt done yet.
weapons tests are remaining.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Widow said:


> 1993:Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
> 2001:First flight	4 January 2001
> 2011: 10Jan Initial operation clearance.
> 2012: First squadron will be delivered
> 
> Now tell me how you are counting 30 Years???



your own editor of AFM wrote on title *30 YEARS*. Any way, i wast talking about no of years whether its 20 or 30, doesn't matter. What does matter is that LCA is not flying yet and the excuse you made which make no sense at all.


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## Black Widow

farhan_9909 said:


> squarden is accepted in air force after FOC nt IOC.
> 
> first 20 LCA will be delivered to IAF by mid 2014.as even a guided short range missile tests are nt done yet.
> weapons tests are remaining.



Agree.. We have already made 15 LCA, which are used for weapon testing. A2A and A2G bomb have been already fired. 

SP1 to SP40 (2 Squad) will be deliver to IAF by 2014. I stay in bangalore and I have seen many buildings have come up for Integration of LCA. 

I was referring to the person who claimed LCA to be 30 years.. But according to my calculator 2014 will be 20 years. 20 years 2 squadron, work from scratch, Hindrance from West (after Pokhran II). I don't see it that Bad... 



danger-zone said:


> your own editor of AFM wrote on title *30 YEARS*. Any way, i wast talking about no of years whether its 20 or 30, doesn't matter. What does matter is that LCA is not flying yet and the excuse you made which make no sense at all.



Our defense journalists are not that matured, They put Chinese FC1 with Indian ships, Don't go by there words, please look into the data I have given.

We have already made 15 LCAs (TD1,TD2, PV1 to PV5, NP1, NP2. LSP1 to LSP8, I am not sure about it though) LSP7 and LSP8 will be given to IAF, Then SP1-40 will be made for 2 squadron. LSP3/5 will be used as AW testing (Like F18 Growler). LSP6 I think will be used for new engine and LSP7 and 8 will be used for Next gen avionics and Radar testing... 

I know we are late, but better late than hurry


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## farhan_9909

Black Widow said:


> Agree.. We have already made 15 LCA, which are used for weapon testing. A2A and A2G bomb have been already fired.
> 
> SP1 to SP40 (2 Squad) will be deliver to IAF by 2014. I stay in bangalore and I have seen many buildings have come up for Integration of LCA.
> 
> I was referring to the person who claimed LCA to be 30 years.. But according to my calculator 2014 will be 20 years. 20 years 2 squadron, work from scratch, Hindrance from West (after Pokhran II). I don't see it that Bad...



it doesnt matter how much aircraft you have made until it enter the service

LCA is a good effort bt program need to be speed up.


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## rockstarIN

danger-zone said:


> your own editor of AFM wrote on title *30 YEARS*. Any way, i wast talking about no of years whether its 20 or 30, doesn't matter. What does matter is that *LCA is not flying yet *and the excuse you made which make no sense at all.



Its not flying yet?....what do u mean? read my earlier post where I updated details of sorties.


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## rockstarIN

farhan_9909 said:


> squarden is accepted in air force after FOC nt IOC.
> 
> first 20 LCA will be delivered to IAF by mid 2014.as even a guided short range missile tests are nt done yet.
> weapons tests are remaining.



Thats how IAF system works here. They accept only when it is war worthy as per their requirement 'Multi Role'.

Meanwhile, R-73s were tested in LCA long back. Dumb bombs were dropped off much earlier. 

IAF user trail to begin very soon as the first plane fro them, LSP-7 will be ready for flying in this month or early next month.

*The point is, it is not as it is said to be late. We all know where we are now about LCA, they publish it well.*


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Its not flying yet?....what do u mean? read my earlier post where I updated details of sorties.




He mean to say not under service, Don't worry, It will be under service by 2014. 2014 2 Sqadron and then each year a new squadron will add up.. 

I know India can produce 20 LCAs/year easily.


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow, You often see LCAs in blore skies.

I remember my Blore days, where I used to watch it in skies.


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Black Widow, You often see LCAs in blore skies.
> I remember my Blore days, where I used to watch it in skies.



Quite often, My house is 1 mile away from HAL airport. Once I was returning form office (evening 7:30) I saw LCA flying in dark, next day I read PSG blog "LCA conducted Night flight test".

ALH dhruv is very common, You can see it almost everyday, They come for overhaul, Repair and new birds too. Last week I saw white color dhruva, I think it was ambulance...

In bangalore 3 birds are common, LCA, MiG21 and Jaguar. Long back Once I saw EFT as well... and once I saw Antanov 125 (or 250 Myria I don know which it was). It was carrying bangalore Metro coaches.

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## kingdurgaking

Black Widow said:


> 1993:Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
> 2001:First flight	4 January 2001
> 2011: 10Jan Initial operation clearance.
> 2012: First squadron will be delivered
> 
> Now tell me how you are counting 30 Years???



just count it wrongly...

but nowerdays i would like to admit that the Quality atleast in Indian section has increased a lot... i am not browsing other sections ... but Mods have done a real good job


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## hembo

mr gandhi bush hitler said:


> are u sure none??
> it has been 45 years since we started this project and you are telling me its not in service
> ?
> 
> is this some joke or what?
> 
> 0 tejas in service and 383 pages of pure bullshyt......



Change your flag first..


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## blackops

mr gandhi bush hitler said:


> are u sure none??
> it has been 45 years since we started this project and you are telling me its not in service
> ?
> 
> is this some joke or what?
> 
> 
> 0 tejas in service and 383 pages of pure bullshyt......


45 years wow and they say blond's are dumb

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## SpArK

mr gandhi bush hitler said:


> lol only in our bharat do fighter planes make appearances on loaders and tractors.....in rest of the world they perform aerial display.



lol only in this forum do members make appearances on others flags posting comments.. in rest of the world they are proud of their identity to be on display..


Between nice to see a fellow keralite.. 

ninney undakiyavantey kundikadichu poi kidannurangeda...

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## hembo

SpArK said:


> ninney undakiyavantey kundikadichu poi kidannurangeda...



Did you say what I thought you said...


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## SpArK

hembo said:


> Did you say what I thought you said...



I think i did... funny how admins and mods are turning a blind eye on thiss guy.. even while everybody knows they are posting around... 

Whats that behavioral pattern named in medical terms???


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## rockstarIN

Tejas has completed 1770 Test Flights successfully. (24-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-329*,LSP1-67,*LSP2-198*,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-60)*


from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1765 Test Flights successfully. (11-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-327*,LSP1-67*,LSP2-196*,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-59)

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## anniyan

*TEJAS TRAINER COCKPIT*

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## Water Car Engineer

anniyan said:


> *TEJAS TRAINER COCKPIT*



This is a modernized PC-21 cockpit..

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## brational

beautiful MFDs & decent layout.. Seems HAL did a great job with cockpit..


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## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> Tejas has completed 1770 Test Flights successfully. (24-Jan-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-329*,LSP1-67,*LSP2-198*,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-60)*
> 
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1765 Test Flights successfully. (11-Jan-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-327*,LSP1-67*,LSP2-196*,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-59)



want to see some NP's here ...


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## Jason bourne

Sir LurkaLot said:


> This is a modernized PC-21 cockpit..



this is pilatus cockpit not tejas ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Jason bourne said:


> this is pilatus cockpit not tejas ?



ya


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## Jason bourne

this is the pic of naval lca's cockpit


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## rockstarIN

Jason bourne said:


> want to see some NP's here ...



PV-3 has radars and other systems installed in it, means testing for weapons/ECMs. And it flies quite often.


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## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> PV-3 has radars and other systems installed in it, means testing for weapons/ECMs. And it flies quite often.


 
talking abt naval LCA ...


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## rockstarIN

Jason bourne said:


> talking abt naval LCA ...



Feb end or March, thats what they are saying....(if they did not encounter another problem.)

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## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> Feb end or March, thats what they are saying....(if they did not encounter another problem.)



i heard that navy had asked for LCA-mk2 so how it can be possible in feb - march by the way nice data were did u find this cause LCA's official website post old datas..

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------




rockstar said:


> Feb end or March, thats what they are saying....(if they did not encounter another problem.)



navy asked for tejas mk2 ? no mk1 for navy so it means in feb march there wil be a trainer flying ?


----------



## rockstarIN

Jason bourne said:


> i heard that navy had asked for LCA-mk2 so how it can be possible in feb - march by the way nice data were did u find this cause LCA's official website post old datas..
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> navy asked for tejas mk2 ? no mk1 for navy so it means in feb march there wil be a trainer flying ?



NP-1 will be flying by Feb-March as per latest info., along with LSP-7

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## Abingdonboy

Jason bourne said:


> this is the pic of naval lca's cockpit



No this pic is of the IAF LCA cockpit. The pilot is an IN test pilot who has been on deputation the the LCA test program for some time. As such he will be the head test pilot for the N-LCA programme once the N-LCA prototypes are ready.

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## sathya

omg ! so many monitors.. 

is it good or not ?


----------



## lepziboy



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## Abingdonboy

lepziboy said:


>



SWEET!!!!!


----------



## lepziboy

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1773 Test Flights successfully. (01-Feb-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-330*,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-62*)



From


Tejas has completed 1770 Test Flights successfully. (24-Jan-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-329*,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-60*)

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1773 Test Flights successfully. (01-Feb-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-330*,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-62*)
> 
> 
> 
> From
> 
> 
> Tejas has completed 1770 Test Flights successfully. (24-Jan-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,*PV3-329*,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,*LSP5-60*)




Today Also I heard some roar near HAL airport. I couldn't see the which aircraft was that.


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## peep

Black Widow said:


> Today Also I heard some roar near HAL airport. I couldn't see the which aircraft was that.



I miss my intern days.  
Those bus trips in 335/333 from marathalli to Domlur when almost every morning u could see LCA/some other fighters flying high

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## DANGER-ZONE

sathya said:


> omg ! so* many monitors*..
> 
> is it good or not ?



MFD.
Multi Function Display.


----------



## Black Widow

peep said:


> I miss my intern days.
> Those bus trips in 335/333 from marathalli to Domlur when almost every morning u could see LCA/some other fighters flying high



Though I commute on my Bullet, but occasionally I take ride of 333 and 335. . If you get chance visit South-East corner of HAL Airport, you van see many new building have come up. I think HAL is serious about LCA, and they are planning to make at least 20+ plane per year. 

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------




sathya said:


> omg ! so many monitors..
> is it good or not ?



Its our product, If our pilot will feel it not good we will remove one or two monitor.. . If they want 35" LCD, we will attach that also..


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> Today Also I heard some roar near HAL airport. I couldn't see the which aircraft was that.



PV 3 or LSP5, they are making rounds regularly.


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## Lord Of Gondor

peep said:


> I miss my intern days.
> Those bus trips in 335/333 from marathalli to Domlur when almost every morning u could see LCA/some other fighters flying high


I've spotted a Tejas once over Cool Joint/McD@J'nagar and I had spotted an Il76 while I was playing B'ball at teh court in J'nagar(two days b4 the AI 2011 opening).
I have spotted many Kiran(of SKAT) aircraft,just before AI 2011,too


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## heartrocker22

deleted by myself


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## Jason bourne

heartrocker22 said:


> deleted by myself



kyun bhai kya hua


----------



## heartrocker22

Jason bourne said:


> kyun bhai kya hua


 
Main thoda senti ho gaya tha....... Lca has become like my gf hamesa mere feeling ke saath kilwar karti hain kamini

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## Jason bourne

heartrocker22 said:


> Main thoda senti ho gaya tha....... Lca has become like my gf hamesa mere feeling ke saath kilwar karti hain kamini



hahahaha koina our cindrella will fly

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## sudhir007

Flight test update
LCA-Tejas has completed 1774 Test Flights successfully. (02-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-*63*)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1773 Test Flights successfully. (01-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-62)

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## Raje amar

heartrocker22 said:


> Main thoda senti ho gaya tha....... Lca has become like my gf hamesa mere feeling ke saath kilwar karti hain kamini


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## Raje amar

Jason bourne said:


> hahahaha koina our cindrella will fly



ya she is my sleeping beauty . when she will weakup many harts will fell from skies .


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## Shaurya

Raje amar said:


> ya she is my sleeping beauty . when she will weakup many harts will fell from skies .



laat maarke uthaane ka waqt ho gaya hai iska, saali poorey din sote rehti hai

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## rockstarIN

D*efence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will soon be finalizing the price of the joint venture with French major Snecma for the development of the engine to power Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).* The joint venture will be between DRDOs Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Snecma to create better gas turbine engines to power the LCA. French firm Snecma is expected to bring technology for the hot engine core and GTRE will work on the cold sections. GTRE will have half of the technology work-share and Snecma will have the other half, according to DRDO sources. GTRE will obtain technical know-how and intellectual property rights for the engine.

Once the cabinet committee on security approval is obtained, work will be initiated and the Snecma-Kaveri engine will be designed and built in four years.

GTRE has spent nearly two decades in the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine and it is still overweight by around 150 kilograms and cannot provide sufficient thrust from its core engine, required to power the LCA. A jet engine has a cold and a hot part and the latter forms the core of the engine where combustion and the thermodynamics of the engine take place.

The LCA requires an engine with more than 90 KN thrust, while the Kaveri has thrust of only 65 KN thrust. Even the GE-404 that is powering the LCA has a lesser thrust. Hence, the new Snecma-GTRE venture aims at creating a more powerful engine for the LCA.

As of now, the LCA Mk-1 with India is flying with the GE-404 IN20 despite the fact that it does not meet original requirement specifications for levels of thrust for the LCA.
*
DRDO has selected the more powerful GE-414 as the alternative engine for LCA Mk-II. However, it has been suggested that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) get phased out, they should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma, in future. Not only does DRDO plan to replace the GE engines on the LCA Mk-I with the Snecma-GTRE engine, it intends to include it in the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicle.*

Earlier, the Kaveri-Snecma joint venture was criticised by the IAF on grounds that Snecma, which is a derivative of the M-88 engine developed for the Rafale aircraft, has a similar core like that of the Kaveri engine and the joint venture involves GTRE building the peripheral of the core, which would not solve the purpose of having the joint venture since it will turn out to be a license production of Snecma.

By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE. However, GTRE feels that in the co-development with Snecma, the research and development of GTRE for decades on the Kaveri engine will also be absorbed. Besides, Snecma will bring in the core called "Eco for the new engine, and integrate it with systems developed for Kaveri and is not hesitant on sharing technology with India. 

DRDO and French major snecma to finalize engine price for LCA

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## rockstarIN

*DRDO and French major snecma to finalize engine price for LCA*

Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will soon be finalizing the price of the joint venture with French major Snecma for the development of the engine to power India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The joint venture will be between DRDO&#8217;s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Snecma to create better gas turbine engines to power the LCA. French firm Snecma is expected to bring technology for the hot engine core and GTRE will work on the cold sections. GTRE will have half of the technology work-share and Snecma will have the other half, according to DRDO sources. GTRE will obtain technical know-how and intellectual property rights for the engine.

Once the cabinet committee on security approval is obtained, work will be initiated and the Snecma-Kaveri engine will be designed and built in four years.

GTRE has spent nearly two decades in the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine and it is still overweight by around 150 kilograms and cannot provide sufficient thrust from its core engine, required to power the LCA. A jet engine has a cold and a hot part and the latter forms the core of the engine where combustion and the thermodynamics of the engine take place.

The LCA requires an engine with more than 90 KN thrust, while the Kaveri has thrust of only 65 KN thrust. Even the GE-404 that is powering the LCA has a lesser thrust. Hence, the new Snecma-GTRE venture aims at creating a more powerful engine for the LCA.

As of now, the LCA Mk-1 with India is flying with the GE-404 IN20 despite the fact that it does not meet original requirement specifications for levels of thrust for the LCA.

DRDO has selected the more powerful GE-414 as the alternative engine for LCA Mk-II. However, it has been suggested that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) get phased out, they should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma, in future. Not only does DRDO plan to replace the GE engines on the LCA Mk-I with the Snecma-GTRE engine, it intends to include it in the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicle.

Earlier, the Kaveri-Snecma joint venture was criticised by the IAF on grounds that Snecma, which is a derivative of the M-88 engine developed for the Rafale aircraft, has a similar core like that of the Kaveri engine and the joint venture involves GTRE building the peripheral of the core, which would not solve the purpose of having the joint venture since it will turn out to be a license production of Snecma.

By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE. However, GTRE feels that in the co-development with Snecma, the research and development of GTRE for decades on the Kaveri engine will also be absorbed. Besides, Snecma will bring in the core called "Eco&#8221; for the new engine, and integrate it with systems developed for Kaveri and is not hesitant on sharing technology with India.

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## hitenray09

Finally choosing Rafale pays off....
good going India.................

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Good Going !!

MMRCA deal is shaping up..... Good go India.... more news to come.

Tie up with DCNS and others


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## KRAIT

Is it me or everyone is feeling that indian establishments are coming to senses and working out things comparatively faster?


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## DrSomnath999

hitenray09 said:


> Finally choosing Rafale pays off....
> good going India.................


exactly that is 1 important benefit for india through MMRCA deal that i was pointing out

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------




rockstar said:


> By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE. However, GTRE feels that in the co-development with Snecma, the research and development of GTRE for decades on the Kaveri engine will also be absorbed. Besides, Snecma will bring in the core called "Eco&#8221; for the new engine, and integrate it with systems developed for Kaveri and is not hesitant on sharing technology with India.



yes but honestly we dont have any other choice as india is struggling in kaveri engine program regarding thrust issues ,so french 
help on this is a welcomed sign for us


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## rockstarIN

The after burn thrust of Kaveri is 80-81 Kn not 65 Kn stated in the article.


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## DrSomnath999

rockstar said:


> The after burn thrust of Kaveri is 80-81 Kn not 65 Kn stated in the article.


well that is ur saying according to vijay thakur KNol ,website isin it? But atleast 90 kn or greater than 90 kn that is mandatory for induction of kaveri engine into LCA or else even 89 kn is not enough


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## hitenray09

DrSomnath999 said:


> exactly that is 1 important benefit for india through MMRCA deal that i was pointing out


_
its just the beginning more goodies will soon follow..._


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## DrSomnath999

hitenray09 said:


> _
> its just the beginning more goodies will follow soon..._



yes what are the other goodies u can read this 
Top 10 reasons why india made the right choice by selecting rafale as winner?


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## usernaame

KRAIT said:


> Is it me or everyone is feeling that indian establishments are coming to senses and working out things* comparatively faster?*



they need to do it even faster.
IA and IAF is need to modernize by 2014. We can't afford these MMRCA type delays.


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## INDIAISM

i think france was also ready to integrate Snecma-Kaveri into Rafale also{obviously on later stage}....which will be a huge boost for both Rafale and Snecma-Kaveri....

*Snecma-Kaveri* will get a launch customer..
*Rafale* will get 90Kn Engine..


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## securityofficer

bahut purani khabar hai yaar


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## hitenray09

DrSomnath999 said:


> yes what are the other goodies u can read this
> Top 10 reasons why india made the right choice by selecting rafale as winner?


_Hey Doc no offence but I'm already done with all those long back....... 
I may have joined this forum now but i was a silent visitor since last yr........
but eagerly waiting for yr listed facts/ goodies n many more_


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## rockstarIN

DrSomnath999 said:


> well that is ur saying according to vijay thakur KNol ,website isin it? But atleast 90 kn or greater than 90 kn that is mandatory for induction of kaveri engine into LCA or else even 89 kn is not enough



I know that buddy, 80-81 Kn as per DRDO only, IAF is looking for 90-95 Kn for sure.

But just think current Rafale is powered by the engines which go thrust of 80-81 Kn in full after burn. 

My question is Why can't the current Kaveri is used for at least prototypes of AMCA?


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## Raje amar

India must try & fit this engine not only to LCA but also on Rafale.
then also Kaveri Secam engine must be made a standard item in all rafale's to french & all export customers.

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## sancho

@ rockstar

Buddy, is this report really new? 



> *DRDO and French major snecma to finalize engine price for LCA*
> 
> *Posted on: February 07, 2011*

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> @ rockstar
> 
> Buddy, is this report really new?



Lol, even I noticed the 'yr' now, I saw...February 7, which is today...


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## Jason bourne

hahahhahahahah and people saying mmrca deal paying of hahahahhahahahahahah joke of the year this news bacame


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## rockstarIN

Sorry guys my mistake....


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## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> Sorry guys my mistake....



iski saja milengi jarur milengi

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## hitenray09

Jason bourne said:


> hahahhahahahah and people saying mmrca deal paying of hahahahhahahahahahah joke of the year this news bacame



_my bad ...........
should have verified before replying......my mistake just went with the flow_


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## Abingdonboy

Self delete.


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## ironwarrier

i love France. they always stood behind us no matter what. when every nation put sanctions on india after 1998 pokhran tests, France openly supported us. Now they are sharing fighter jet, nuclear plants and Engine know hows. Its a 21 century partnership.


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## KRAIT

Its called good foresight of an excellent businessman...they knew then they know now that india is one golden goose one shouldn't let it go.


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## ironwarrier

KRAIT said:


> Its called good foresight of an excellent businessman...they knew then they know now that india is one golden goose one shouldn't let it go.



true Its a good thing that both Russia and France realised that. Now america should stop being a ***** and learn this lesson too. every time we talk about nuclear or missile tests their *** starts bouncing. One of the major reasons why we dont buy American stuff is the sanctions.


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## ptltejas

Jason bourne said:


> iski saja milengi jarur milengi


 
Gabbar Nahi chod do thakur ko or uske hath kow


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## Mblaze

Govt. should immediately approve this project without wasting any time and without playing any ping pong.


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## Indian-Devil

rockstar said:


> *DRDO and French major snecma to finalize engine price for LCA*
> 
> Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will soon be finalizing the price of the joint venture with French major Snecma for the development of the engine to power Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The joint venture will be between DRDOs Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Snecma to create better gas turbine engines to power the LCA. French firm Snecma is expected to bring technology for the hot engine core and GTRE will work on the cold sections. GTRE will have half of the technology work-share and Snecma will have the other half, according to DRDO sources. GTRE will obtain technical know-how and intellectual property rights for the engine.
> 
> Once the cabinet committee on security approval is obtained, work will be initiated and the Snecma-Kaveri engine will be designed and built in four years.
> 
> GTRE has spent nearly two decades in the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine and it is still overweight by around 150 kilograms and cannot provide sufficient thrust from its core engine, required to power the LCA. A jet engine has a cold and a hot part and the latter forms the core of the engine where combustion and the thermodynamics of the engine take place.
> 
> The LCA requires an engine with more than 90 KN thrust, while the *Kaveri has thrust of only 65 KN thrust*. Even the GE-404 that is powering the LCA has a lesser thrust. Hence, the new Snecma-GTRE venture aims at creating a more powerful engine for the LCA.
> 
> As of now, the LCA Mk-1 with India is flying with the GE-404 IN20 despite the fact that it does not meet original requirement specifications for levels of thrust for the LCA.
> 
> DRDO has selected the more powerful GE-414 as the alternative engine for LCA Mk-II. However, it has been suggested that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) get phased out, they should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma, in future. Not only does DRDO plan to replace the GE engines on the LCA Mk-I with the Snecma-GTRE engine, it intends to include it in the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicle.
> 
> Earlier, the Kaveri-Snecma joint venture was criticised by the IAF on grounds that Snecma, which is a derivative of the M-88 engine developed for the Rafale aircraft, has a similar core like that of the Kaveri engine and the joint venture involves GTRE building the peripheral of the core, which would not solve the purpose of having the joint venture since it will turn out to be a license production of Snecma.
> 
> By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE. However, GTRE feels that in the co-development with Snecma, the research and development of GTRE for decades on the Kaveri engine will also be absorbed. Besides, Snecma will bring in the core called "Eco for the new engine, and integrate it with systems developed for Kaveri and is not hesitant on sharing technology with India.


 
I think Kaveri engine produces nearly 80kN not 65kN.


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## sraja

KRAIT said:


> Is it me or everyone is feeling that indian establishments are coming to senses and working out things comparatively faster?


 
No....It is slow, always slow, forever be slow....

*France's Snecma Close to Win Indian Deal -Report
Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 AM ET*

The Joint-Venture deal was supposed to be signed in 2006. Even now, after 5 years, they didn't sign. If they signed in 2006, India would have gotten a new engine by now and GTRE would have observed vital engine technologies. Whole 5 focking years have been wasted, just like MMRCA drama even though IAF always wanted french jets. Not just time, huge sum of money also wasted.


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## praveen007

*LCA - Navy.
Is test flight is coming soon.*
.
.


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## praveen007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Coming Soon: A close look at LCA Navy
.
.
*LCA-Navy. Is test flight of lca-is coming soon.*..

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## Kompromat

Good luck with this "holy white elaphant".

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## Capt.Popeye

Aeronaut said:


> Good luck with this "holy white elaphant".



What a profoundly reasoned out opinion......................

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## KRAIT

Holy white elephant to crush any opponent.


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## born

> Good luck with this "holy white elaphant".


hehe good one..

nyways she's maturing fast.Good.

LCA is too important for us.


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## acetophenol

Aeronaut said:


> Good luck with this "holy white elaphant".



thank you bro,and get well soon.

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## foxbat

No wonder he got demoted to Opinionator from Think Tank...

Dude, will be better if you post with some substance.. If not for your own respect, atleast for the respect of the forum since you hold an official title here..


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## peep

DRDO should go the entire length ensuring LCA is operational.

To all DRDO ppl : "failure is when when u decide to give up". We completely support you in your endeavor. Good Luck


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## matrix_neo

forget the trolls... we need LCA navy to succeed, and we need it to get operational fast.. INS Vikrant should be commissioned by 2016.. They are moving real fast on that one!!!

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## farhan_9909

best of luck

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## lilaspr

Tarmak007
why they destroy picture by writing Tarmak007 100 times, we can understand if you write once... ?

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## Kompromat

Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.


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## rockstarIN

Aeronaut said:


> Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.



Expect much good reply from an Opinionator. If 'Light' combat air craft is an outdated concept, then why the hell PAF is inducting another light weight fighter JF-17?.

LCA is not a failure, we learned alot and we do not want to do the same mistake again when we stopped manufacturing own jets after Ajeet. We will go ahead no matter whatever happens and the LCAs will fulfill the missions which it is designed to do.

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## peep

^Even if LCA is not a true success, still it can serve as a test bed for our upcoming AMCA.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Expect much good reply from an Opinionator. If 'Light' combat air craft is an outdated concept, then why the hell PAF is inducting another light weight fighter JF-17?.
> 
> *LCA is not a failure, we learned alot and we do not want to do* the same mistake again when we stopped manufacturing own jets after Ajeet. We will go ahead no matter whatever happens and the LCAs will fulfill the missions which it is designed to do.



This part I agree with, as a learning experience the LCA is not a failure. But as a finished product the LCA(Mk1 anyway) is a total flop. And the reasons for this lie with the IAF's inability to come up with a static Air staff requirement for what it wanted.
I posted a comical video on the development of the Bradley IFV.. and the LCA has many paralells with it.

I do feel that the LCA Navy is being shoved down the IN's throat by an apologetic MoD and DRDO(which has no need to be apologetic for what is not its fault).

The services have been trying to shift the blame for problems in the LCA to DRDO(and HAL) but the fact is it is they who are responsible for shifting requirements every other year.
This was DRDO and HAL's first venture in designed an aircraft completely on their own.. to expect them to do it the same timetable with the same efficiency that established companies do(Occasionally) was foolish.
I agree with Aeronaut that the LCA program should not be pursued anymore, the focus should be on AMCA and all resources should be focused there.

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## Black Widow

Aeronaut said:


> Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.



I agree with you on AMCA, but unless NCLA is ready we won't have experience for N-AMCA. LCA is potent testbed and machine. 10-12 Squadron of LCA will be good enough for India to defend its border. 

LCA type of aircraft (4th and 4++ gen) will gonna serve for 20-25 year more. So saying LCA is useless now is non buyable statement. World is gonna count on 4th gen fighter till 2030. 5th gen fighters are under development, it will take next 10 years to come under production and next 10 years for production.


So in short LCA is very much relevance for both usage and as development platform.

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## rockstarIN

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

[/COLOR]


Oscar said:


> This part I agree with, as a learning experience the LCA is not a failure. But as a finished product the LCA(Mk1 anyway) is a total flop. And the reasons for this lie with the IAF's inability to come up with a static Air staff requirement for what it wanted.
> I posted a comical video on the development of the Bradley IFV.. and the LCA has many paralells with it.
> 
> I do feel that the LCA Navy is being shoved down the IN's throat by an apologetic MoD and DRDO(which has no need to be apologetic for what is not its fault).
> 
> The services have been trying to shift the blame for problems in the LCA to DRDO(and HAL) but the fact is it is they who are responsible for shifting requirements every other year.
> This was DRDO and HAL's first venture in designed an aircraft completely on their own.. to expect them to do it the same timetable with the same efficiency that established companies do(Occasionally) was foolish.
> I agree with Aeronaut that the LCA program should not be pursued anymore, the focus should be on AMCA and all resources should be focused there.



We do slip the due dates for LCA, but I totally disagree the notion that it should be scrapped and focus should be on AMCA. 

We have the resources to do both LCA as well as AMCA now, which is already in place.

AP&T

There is a need of replacing 100+ Mig-21s, cant wait 20 years more for the same. Despite its problems, LCA has its own +ves in several areas. i.e composites etc. 

If you take the timeline as a sole parameter, then F-35 is a biggest failure but do you think they should scrap it and re open F-22 production line..NO they are going back to even the design phase to rectify it and bring back it to shape. We have invested in LCA time and money. And I do not see any difference in technologies when LCA get FOC with any other 4th Gen Fighter.

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> ---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> We do slip the due dates for LCA, but I totally disagree the notion that it should be scrapped and focus should be on AMCA.
> 
> We have the resources to do both LCA as well as AMCA now, which is already in place.
> 
> AP&T
> 
> There is a need of replacing 100+ Mig-21s, cant wait 20 years more for the same. Despite its problems, LCA has its own +ves in several areas. i.e composites etc.
> 
> If you take the *timeline as a sole parameter, then F-35 is a biggest failure* but do you think they should scrap it and re open F-22 production line..NO they are going back to even the design phase to rectify it and bring back it to shape. We have invested in LCA time and money. And I do not see any difference in technologies when LCA get FOC with any other 4th Gen Fighter.



Ive already stated "occasionally" in my argument for that.
The composites in the LCA are not just its positives, nor are they magic.
They are positives for HAL and DRDO, the manufacturing knowledge.. the avionics knowledge.. that is the + point in the LCA program.

The 100+ mig-21's can be augmented by further MMRCA purchases or MKI purchases.
It a capability that the IAF does not need.
There is no longer a need for a dedicated light interceptor for the IAF.
Just having the capability aganst who? bangladesh? Burma?
The paradigm shift is to multirole.
What those 100+ LCA's are supposed to accomplish in deterrence the IAF's already potent fleet of aircraft in the MKI,the MMRCA,The FGFA and the AMCA will accomplish.
However if the IAF is still adamant about the LCA then it should look into suspending R&D and focus on basic interceptor Mk1's.
Having money to spend is one thing.. just wasting it because you can is another.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> This part I agree with, as a learning experience the LCA is not a failure. *But as a finished product the LCA(Mk1 anyway) is a total flop*.



My question would be on what bases this conclusion is made, since there is no finished product so far? Let them build MK1 first and provide some propper specs about it, then we can compare and get to conclusions.

Wrt responsibility... When the fighter turns out around 1t heavier than planned, or when the gears of N-LCA are designed too strong and heavy as needed it's ADAs responsibility, when radar and engine developments gets delayed or even failed and can't be finished according to the requirements that, it's DRDOs responsibility. The forces instead are responsible for wanting a fully capable and ready fighter, instead of improving and maturing it after induction into service. 
So they all have their shares, but the main responsibility for all the delays clearly lies with ADA and DRDO!

Switching to AMCA is the worst thing we can make, because we learn nothing if we don't find the mistakes of LCA program and correct them. That is only possible if we finish the project and induct it into operational service and not by simply closing our eyes.
LCA was never important for India as a fighter, because it's just aimed to be the low end of the fleet. The importance comes by the fact that it was meant to be the base project of the aero industry and any further upgrade, design, R&D development in future should be based on it. Without finishing it, all this is not available and besides all the time and money we wasted, we would start at the begining again!

Btw, Aeronaut has no idea what he is talking about when he claims LCA would be outdated. When you look at the materials, techs and capabilities or the overall potential, it's more than close to Gripen level. LCA was developed with with a good growth potential in mind and still would have a good future, if it only would be inducted into service and de-linked from all the unnecessary stuff!

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## tjpf

Aeronaut said:


> Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.



now that you have mentioned it, LCA is a failure guys


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## Jason bourne

Aeronaut said:


> Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.




thanks for the advise but some people saying that pakistan is a failed nation do u have any advise for them ??


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## Splurgenxs

> Ive already stated "occasionally" in my argument for that.
> The composites in the LCA are not just its positives, nor are they magic.
> They are positives for HAL and DRDO, the manufacturing knowledge.. the avionics knowledge.. that is the + point in the LCA program.
> 
> The 100+ mig-21's can be augmented by further MMRCA purchases or MKI purchases.
> It a capability that the IAF does not need.
> There is no longer a need for a dedicated light interceptor for the IAF.
> Just having the capability aganst who? bangladesh? Burma?
> The paradigm shift is to multirole.
> What those 100+ LCA's are supposed to accomplish in deterrence the IAF's already potent fleet of aircraft in the MKI,the MMRCA,The FGFA and the AMCA will accomplish.
> However if the IAF is still adamant about the LCA then it should look into suspending R&D and focus on basic interceptor Mk1's.
> Having money to spend is one thing.. just wasting it because you can is another.



i may lean towards ur opinion about this program ...but i do not think the learning phase for Indian R&d teams ends here
Heck of the most important part of a Fighter planes development is to get it fully operational , and get it serving in the def forces...

Until and unless tht is achieved ..we cant truly trust ourselves to build the AMCA.
Let the LCA be fully developed and operationalized ..even if we have to buy only 10 of these for active service...its still boosts our tec base and experience about every phase in a jets development cycle.


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## Mblaze

sancho said:


> My question would be on what bases this conclusion is made, since there is no finished product so far? Let them build MK1 first and provide some propper specs about it, then we can compare and get to conclusions.
> 
> Wrt responsibility... When the fighter turns out around 1t heavier than planned, or when the gears of N-LCA are designed too strong and heavy as needed it's ADAs responsibility, when radar and engine developments gets delayed or even failed and can't be finished according to the requirements that, it's DRDOs responsibility. The forces instead are responsible for wanting a fully capable and ready fighter, instead of improving and maturing it after induction into service.
> So they all have their shares, but the main responsibility for all the delays clearly lies with ADA and DRDO!
> 
> Switching to AMCA is the worst thing we can make, because we learn nothing if we don't find the mistakes of LCA program and correct them. That is only possible if we finish the project and induct it into operational service and not by simply closing our eyes.
> LCA was never important for India as a fighter, because it's just aimed to be the low end of the fleet. The importance comes by the fact that it was meant to be the base project of the aero industry and any further upgrade, design, R&D development in future should be based on it. Without finishing it, all this is not available and besides all the time and money we wasted, we would start at the begining again!
> 
> Btw, Aeronaut has no idea what he is talking about when he claims LCA would be outdated. When you look at the materials, techs and capabilities or the overall potential, it's more than close to Gripen level. LCA was developed with with a good growth potential in mind and still would have a good future, if it only would be inducted into service and de-linked from all the unnecessary stuff!



100% agree with u bro.

Tejas with AESA Radar + far superior avionics with European/Israeli inputs + new engine will be one of the best aircraft in its category.

Our defense is not dependent on it as we have Su-30 MKIs + Rafale to do the job till Tejas get inducted in big numbers.

We need to complete the learning curve it will be a strong building block of the aerospace industry in India.


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## Abingdonboy

Aeronaut said:


> Most of you ain't worth replying to , all i wanted to say is that this program is a failure , just a matter of ego. India should rather put its energies in making AMCA a success. LCA is an outdated concept and would have no future use in the warfare except from keeping the pilots playing with a stick and some MFDs.



SOOOO wrong. The technical/idustrial base being created by this program is incredible, this will firmly establish India as an aerospace power. How can you move on to AMCA when you haven't finished LCA? Much of the know-how that will go into AMCA will be directly derived from the LCA program. You have to crawl before you can walk. Big talk coming from a person whose national aerospace industery is non-existent. It is very easy to sit there and constantly criticize Indian defence programs when Pakistan has none of her own to compare, if Pakistan had tried this sort of thing we'd still be waiting for the first flight. This was an incredibly bold move on India's part to try and go it alone and it will in the long term pay dividends. You know what they say-"fortune favors the bold".



19 years (actually how long it has taken) despite 0 manufacturing base,0 technical knowledge, US sanctions, feeble budget, limited resources, limited manpower and little outside help to produce an advanced 4.5 gen lightweight fighter really is quite an ACHIEVEMENT. 0 crashes to date speaks for itself.

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## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> *
> Btw, Aeronaut has no idea what he is talking about when he claims LCA would be outdated. When you look at the materials, techs and capabilities or the overall potential, it's more than close to Gripen level. LCA was developed with with a good growth potential in mind and still would have a good future, if it only would be inducted into service and de-linked from all the unnecessary stuff!*


 
Spot on. Truer words were never said.

When the LCA was considered in the 1980s it was indeed a replacement for the MiGs in point interceptor role; however with the massive increase in the ASR during 1990s and later meant it has evolved as a light multi role fighter and not light interceptor as oscar thinks it is!

If Mr. aeronaut think that a multi role light fighter with almost all the techs of 4th gen is outdated; he needs a reality check. It is not the case of the LCA mk1 being a slouch but IAF wanting a mature and fully developed platform which can only be achieved by iterative development.

And thus the tale of mk1 and mk2!

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> This part I agree with, as a learning experience the LCA is not a failure. But as a finished product the LCA(Mk1 anyway) is a total flop. And the reasons for this lie with the IAF's inability to come up with a static Air staff requirement for what it wanted.
> I posted a comical video on the development of the Bradley IFV.. and the LCA has many paralells with it.
> 
> I do feel that the LCA Navy is being shoved down the IN's throat by an apologetic MoD and DRDO(which has no need to be apologetic for what is not its fault).
> 
> The services have been trying to shift the blame for problems in the LCA to DRDO(and HAL) but the fact is it is they who are responsible for shifting requirements every other year.
> This was DRDO and HAL's first venture in designed an aircraft completely on their own.. to expect them to do it the same timetable with the same efficiency that established companies do(Occasionally) was foolish.
> I agree with Aeronaut that the LCA program should not be pursued anymore, the focus should be on AMCA and all resources should be focused there.



Notwithstanding the fact that the IAF has proved to be a recalcitrant stake-holder in the LCA project at various times; Tejas was a necesssary project to go through with. It has been a technology demonstrator for the Indian Defence Aviation industry. The last time that India attempted to do such a thing was with the still-born HF-24 project and for lack of a suitable engine that project was allowed to wither away. But that was a generation earlier and all that tech (however) little, was just left in cobwebs. Setting this project up was not easy, both due to external and internal reasons; but inspite of that a "flying test-bed" has been created and is testing out various technologies. That is the most important thing to my my mind; not even that the Tejas may not even make it into service- (but it will, and in a form that may well be a surprise).

The lesson is very simple: that Tejas helped India to learn many things required to build a modern aircraft (however painful that was), while other countries have had to be satisfied with "screw-driver++" technology to build similar aircraft. The Tejas learning curve will be useful not just for the AMCA project but in all spheres of aero-space including the civilian sector, if you bother to notice. That will be a big boost to the aero-space industry in India, somewhat analogous to Indian endeavours in the automobile industry which is slated to make India a big automotive hub internationally and very soon at that. That model stands to be replicated for aero-space as well, Tejas being one contributor to that. Think about it.

Of course, I will not grudge you your effort to salvage some-body who tends to fire off indiscriminately and then ends up with "foot-in-mouth" afflictions.

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## rockstarIN

To add, AMCA will be seriously taken once we have the tech know how from Rafale deal and PAK/FA - FGFA deal.

We will make These two Gen4++ & 5th Gen jets in our labs. With those experience along with LCA knowledge base, AMCA will be a state of the art jet.


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## Screambowl

On what basis is LCA a failure, if some one can explain me the technical fact for this conclusion... ?


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> My question would be on what bases this conclusion is made, since there is no finished product so far? Let them build MK1 first and provide some propper specs about it, then we can compare and get to conclusions.
> 
> Wrt responsibility... When the fighter turns out around 1t heavier than planned, or when the gears of N-LCA are designed too strong and heavy as needed it's ADAs responsibility, when radar and engine developments gets delayed or even failed and can't be finished according to the requirements that, it's DRDOs responsibility. The forces instead are responsible for wanting a fully capable and ready fighter, instead of improving and maturing it after induction into service.
> So they all have their shares, but the main responsibility for all the delays clearly lies with ADA and DRDO!
> 
> Switching to AMCA is the worst thing we can make, because we learn nothing if we don't find the mistakes of LCA program and correct them. That is only possible if we finish the project and induct it into operational service and not by simply closing our eyes.
> LCA was never important for India as a fighter, because it's just aimed to be the low end of the fleet. The importance comes by the fact that it was meant to be the base project of the aero industry and any further upgrade, design, R&D development in future should be based on it. Without finishing it, all this is not available and besides all the time and money we wasted, we would start at the begining again!
> 
> Btw, Aeronaut has no idea what he is talking about when he claims LCA would be outdated. When you look at the materials, techs and capabilities or the overall potential, it's more than close to Gripen level. LCA was developed with with a good growth potential in mind and still would have a good future, if it only would be inducted into service and de-linked from all the unnecessary stuff!



The LCA program is a failure for not delivering on time what it had promised(as is the F-35 program), its as simple as that.
It does not have the engine it was supposed to have, has not entered operational service.. and by the very virtue of its delays is putting the lives of those pilots that have to fly the outdated Mig-21's at risk.

The LCA program is NOT a failure for what it brings as knowledge and understanding to DRDO and HAL. Its a gold mine.. and I have already elaborated as to how many times before.

And yes I agree that the LCA is not outdated, but the very fact that it is linked to unnecessary requirements is its downfall.
The LCA Mk2 would have been relavent today.. not 10 years from now. 
As I suggested, if the question is to replace mig-21's..then do it with a basic Mk1.. BVR and unguided A2G weapons only.

Concentrate all those resources meant for the Mk2 on the AMCA, make that program an excellent one.


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## IND151

^^ sir , in my humble opinion problem is IAF wants LCA on par with western jets which is not possible.

may be IAF's emphasis is on quality as some sources suggest that IAF wants to have 39.5 squadrons.

LCA MK 2 will take a lot of time for induction but if it comes with AESA its worth it.

it wont be good to scrap LCA and start from scratch AMCA program.

*LCA program should be given more funds and GOI should secretly hire ex soviet aeronautical engineers who are unemployed now ( offering them huge pay )*

this will be legal and reduce the development time for LCA Mk 2 tremendously.

and Israeli help wont be that useful compared to what these ex soviet aeronautical engineers can do as no nation gives ultra advanced technology to other nations and salary of these engineers will be directly related to success of Mk2


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## SQ8

IND151 said:


> LCA program should be given more funds and GOI should secretly hire ex soviet aeronautical engineers who are unemployed now ( offering them huge pay )



"Sigh..."



had they gone with this design(which I shamelessly troll on every LCA thread).. that might be the course of action taken.. and a very excellent LCA would have come to light.


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## IND151

^^ which AC is this sir?


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## rockstarIN

We do not need to get Russians, we have French help on these matters though.


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## SQ8

IND151 said:


> ^^ which AC is this sir?



Sukhoi S-54 concept.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> "Sigh..."
> 
> 
> 
> had they gone with this design(which I shamelessly troll on every LCA thread).. that might be the course of action taken.. and a very excellent LCA would have come to light.



I remember you mentioned this earlier too. We started LCA programmes in 1990s and the MKI production started in India in 2000's.

A MkI's +Mig 29's baby was out of the question though.


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## IND151

rockstar said:


> We do not need to get Russians, we have French help on these matters though.



i said

* GOI should secretly hire ex soviet aeronautical engineers who are unemployed now ( offering them huge pay )*

these engineers will not work on order of Russia but will work as *Indian Engineers  *

we can use *"performance related pay"* policy here ( if you know MHRM you will know what i mean )


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> The LCA program is a failure for not delivering on time what it had promised(as is the F-35 program), its as simple as that.
> It does not have the engine it was supposed to have, has not entered operational service.. and by the very virtue of its delays is putting the lives of those pilots that have to fly the outdated Mig-21's at risk.
> 
> The LCA program is NOT a failure for what it brings as knowledge and understanding to DRDO and HAL. Its a gold mine.. and I have already elaborated as to how many times before.
> 
> And yes I agree that the LCA is not outdated, but the very fact that it is linked to unnecessary requirements is its downfall.
> The LCA Mk2 would have been relavent today.. not 10 years from now.
> As I suggested, if the question is to replace mig-21's..then do it with a basic Mk1.. BVR and unguided A2G weapons only.
> 
> Concentrate all those resources meant for the Mk2 on the AMCA, make that program an excellent one.



the only problem was to link with the engine and other developments along with LCA. I would say it was a bold decision but technically it failed. We could not get western engines at that time and did not want Russian engines on LCA. May be that is the reason to go slow on not linking Kaveri from LCA project.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> I remember you mentioned this earlier too. We started *LCA programmes in 1990s* and the MKI production started in India in 2000's.
> 
> A MkI's +Mig 29's baby was out of the question though.



This program existing during the early 90's.. I do believe this idea never crossed the IAF's mind.. 
A baby flanker with a local engine.. Israeli and french avionics.. capable of flying circles around any other aircraft.
Gives me a hard on.


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## rockstarIN

IND151 said:


> i said
> 
> * GOI should secretly hire ex soviet aeronautical engineers who are unemployed now ( offering them huge pay )*
> 
> these engineers will not work on order of Russia but will work as *Indian Engineers  *
> 
> we can use *"performance related pay"* policy here ( if you know MHRM you will know what i mean )



We were too honest you know. By the way, Russians are not unemployed now...I read some where that around 8000 engineers worked for 5 yrs for PAK-FA design itself.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> "Sigh..."
> 
> 
> 
> had they gone with this design(which I shamelessly troll on every LCA thread).. that might be the course of action taken.. and a very excellent LCA would have come to light.



Maybe that would have been so! 
But then India would've ended up with a JF-17_esque_ aircraft (in terms of the philosophy of creation and execution) and been happier with some short-cuts, in time and (maybe) money. I am happier that India has taken the "road less travelled". That will probably have a bigger pay-off eventually. Let it play out.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Maybe that would have been so!
> But then India would've ended up with a JF-17_esque_ aircraft (in terms of the philosophy of creation and execution) and been happier with some short-cuts, in time and (maybe) money. I am happier that India has taken the "road less travelled". *That will probably have a bigger pay-off eventually*. Let it play out.



For the aircraft and program..NO.
In terms of knowledge.. YES... a very very big payoff.


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> This program existing during the early 90's.. I do believe this idea never crossed the IAF's mind..
> A baby flanker with a local engine.. Israeli and french avionics.. capable of flying circles around any other aircraft.
> Gives me a hard on.



It was offered by Russia to India that time but rejected by IAF.

It would be like how JF-17 to Pakistan had that offer been accepted. After all it will be known as a Russian fighter only. Not like the case of J-10. Our bargaining/money power as also not like as it today.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> It was offered by Russia to India that time but rejected by IAF.
> 
> It would be like how* JF-17 to Pakistan had that offer been accepted. *After all it will be known as a Russian fighter only. Not like the case of J-10. Our bargaining/money power as also not like as it today.



The S-54 being the basis for JF-17?
This was the basis for the JF-17.. beginning as an F-7 redesign.. but then done from scratch.
inspired by concept drawings of Mig-33, The F-16.. but still done from scratch.





Had the Russians offered us this aircraft for the JF-17.. I think we would have taken it... with very little "editing"... possible using the RD-33.
However.. as fate would have it. Things turned out differently..and better since complete dependence on Russia for our mainstay may have been disastrous. Also the chances of co-production would have not come to light.

When it comes to the LCA however, India still had enough bargaining power with Russia even then to force co-production and refine as it wished the concept. 
Still, the LCA decision was not all based on design I believe. Politics, diplomacy,funds and requirements all came into play.


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> The S-54 being the basis for JF-17?



Your earlier post only.

Had we accepted from the offer of Su-54, we could have ended up with a Russian jet (Russian design, Russian Engine, probably weapons, Elta Radars, Indian Aviocs & French tech. too) So what is all about our 'own' fighter there. It is like JFT to Pakistan from China. JFT is basically a Chinese fighter isn't it.

If they only purchase engine & design from them and we make else everything, it make sense.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> For the aircraft and program..NO.
> In terms of knowledge.. YES... a very very big payoff.



According to me, that is what matters. 
The aircraft is important, but not vitally so. And there are some 'hedges' in place for eventualities. But in terms of 'knowledge'; India will be something of a 'creator' and less of a 'borrower'.

Now extrapolate that knowledge on the rest of the aero-space industry, especially the civilian sector. India will have a larger knowledge pool; 'know-how' and 'knowing-people'. That can be leveraged enormously.

In the 60s, India scrabbled about frantically to set up steel plants, most of which were based on Soviet know-how (which was derided in some quarters). But for a number of reasons and compulsions India slogged on. Now the pay-off is there. 

Even Mr. L.N. Mittal owes his billions to that policy in a substantial measure!


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## prototype

Oscar said:


> This part I agree with, as a learning experience the LCA is not a failure. But as a finished product the LCA(Mk1 anyway) is a total flop. And the reasons for this lie with the IAF's inability to come up with a static Air staff requirement for what it wanted.
> I posted a comical video on the development of the Bradley IFV.. and the LCA has many paralells with it.
> 
> I do feel that the LCA Navy is being shoved down the IN's throat by an apologetic MoD and DRDO(which has no need to be apologetic for what is not its fault).
> 
> The services have been trying to shift the blame for problems in the LCA to DRDO(and HAL) but the fact is it is they who are responsible for shifting requirements every other year.
> This was DRDO and HAL's first venture in designed an aircraft completely on their own.. to expect them to do it the same timetable with the same efficiency that established companies do(Occasionally) was foolish.
> I agree with Aeronaut that the LCA program should not be pursued anymore, the focus should be on AMCA and all resources should be focused there.



By this time the intension's of HAL are very much clear now,to make LCA operational and successful at any cost.

Offcourse MK-1 does not fit in the present scheme of things,thats why they stopped it with a limited production,HAL had alredy learned its mistake,and thast the reason they are going for MK-2 rather than declaring MK-1 as a success.


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## rockstarIN

LCA MK1 is always good than Mig-21s. SO better have those MK1s to replace the old Migs.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Your earlier post only.
> 
> Had we accepted from the offer of Su-54, we could have ended up with a Russian jet (Russian design, Russian Engine, probably weapons, Elta Radars, Indian Aviocs & French tech. too) So what is all about our 'own' fighter there. It is like JFT to Pakistan from China. *JFT is basically a Chinese fighter isn't it.*
> 
> If they only purchase engine & design from them and we make else everything, it make sense.



That is a very big misconception.. but to deviate no further from the topic.
lets put it as briefly as possible. till 1999 there was little to show for the Fc-1 design apart from minor concepts and blueprints.
When a PAF team visited China in 2001 to assess the program..they were shocked to know NOTHING had moved forward.
It was then that an emergency rotation of some 100 engineers by the PAF was deputed to Chengdu to work with the Chinese and expedite plans. To the extent that the College of Aeronautical engineering at Risalpur saw quite a bit of its faculty and immediate graduates disappear on rotations to Chengdu. All these people were deputed to the Chief Designer of the JF-17 and it was these people that got it moving along. So to call it a Chinese aircraft is extremely unfair to those men.
Which is why it is called a co-production.

Coming to the question of the S-54... you could have purchase the design.. and work on it.
It did not have to look exactly like that, just using that as the building block.. perhaps it may even have incorporated Levcons from the start.. perhaps an S duct.. That depended on HAL engineers.
It may not have needed a Russian engine. A redesign of the engine bay could have been done.
So a lot of IF's in the process.

Here is the biggest IF, would it have been easier to pull off than the current design of the LCA? Or, more appropriately.. did it have better growth potential than the current LCA?

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Here is the biggest IF, would it have been easier to pull off than the current design of the LCA? Or, more appropriately.. did it have better growth potential than the current LCA?



You never know, the same roadblocks might have as today. forget engine. 

It is not sure a design change might have accelerated the programme. After all French were consulted for the current LCAs too for number of problems. then came with the solution of new engine with more thrust.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> You never know, the same roadblocks might have as today. forget engine.
> 
> It is not sure a design change might have accelerated the programme. After all French were consulted for the current LCAs too for number of problems. then came with the solution of new engine with more thrust.



Which is why I maintain.. even with a good successful aircraft.. the LCA concept as defined to its customers has not been successful. Simply because of the many hurdles and faults in the way. Just like the F-35.
But.. the reward of the LCA program is in the journey.. not the destination.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Which is why I maintain.. even with a good successful aircraft.. the LCA concept as defined to its customers has not been successful. Simply because of the many hurdles and faults in the way. Just like the F-35.
> But.. the reward of the LCA program is in the journey.. not the destination.



Nice post.
Rounded of with a nice _vedantic_ philosophical note.

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Nice post.
> Rounded of with a nice _vedantic_ philosophical note.



You may follow me on twitter for more brilliance 
Considering I just started off with this tweeting thing.

Which brings me with a question on the N-LCA.. Where's the hook? I missed it in the pic.


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## ganimi kawa

Posting the relevant part from This thread.....




> Anil Kumar Singh, who is also Project Director for the *Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar*, called it &#8220;an ambitious project&#8221;. The project was approved in January. The main role of the radar, which will be integrated with the fighter aircraft, is to direct the fire accurately from the aircraft. It will feature advanced electronic counter, counter measures (ECCMs). The radar will direct the fire from air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea missiles.




We have been hearing many rumors about AESA for LCA (Project Uttam); this is for the first time that we see an official accepting the presence of this program. 

Looking at the recent trends (DRDO acknowledging a program only after it reaches a certain benchmark) it is safe to assume that we have made some headway in fighter AESA radars.

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## nomi007

Livefist: Indian Navy Chief Snipes Carrier Tejas


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> You may follow me on twitter for more brilliance
> Considering I just started off with this tweeting thing.
> 
> Which brings me with a question on the N-LCA.. Where's the hook? I missed it in the pic.



About the first part, will give it a thought- thought that Twitter was for Celebs or plain Twits! Since I'm neither, always gave Twitter a miss. 

About the tail-hook, maybe its not been fitted yet.
Or (to give food to the trolls and opinion-wallahs), maybe it just fell off!


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Which is why I maintain.. even with a good successful aircraft.. the LCA concept as defined to its customers has not been successful. Simply because of the many hurdles and faults in the way. Just like the F-35.
> But.. the reward of the LCA program is in the journey.. not the destination.



Nobody gonna leave, neither Indians nor USA.

We will see the end of the tunnel


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The LCA program is a failure for not delivering on time what it had promised(as is the F-35 program), its as simple as that.



Possible, but that wasn't what you stated before right? 



Oscar said:


> As I suggested, if the question is to replace mig-21's..then do it with a basic Mk1.. BVR and unguided A2G weapons only.



It's already to do so and even to replace Jaguars in the strike role, but be it as it may, IAF has their own way and as long as it didn't fulfill all requirements they won't induct it. That doesn't mean that the fighter isn't capable, just that IAF has a different procedure.



Oscar said:


> "Sigh..."
> 
> 
> 
> had they gone with this design(which I shamelessly troll on every LCA thread).. that might be the course of action taken.. and a very excellent LCA would have come to light.



 And as I said, simple adaption of a foreign design was not what India wanted although I would have liked it if we have taken the Israeli Lavi design and developed a fighter on that base. India wanted an own development, which alone wouldn't be a problem, at least if we had used proven stopgap parts from the start. 
In this field we can learn a lot from China, be it adapting fighter designs or using stopgap engines, till the indigenous developed is ready.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------




ganimi kawa said:


> Anil Kumar Singh, who is also Project Director for the Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar, called it &#8220;*an ambitious project*&#8221;.



Oh not again!

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Possible, but *that wasn't what you stated before right*?



That is exactly what I meant.
The program is a failure.. after all.. dont you have people asking for scrapping of the F-35..
Even though the A model is great..


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## KRAIT

What i don't understand is induction of 2 squadron of LCA MK I and 2 of Mark II signifies failure....but i will wait until it is inducted by 2014...


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## Abingdonboy

Mock up of LCA cockpit (Mk.1)


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## praveen007

*Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Naval aviation to hit new high with LCA NP-1 maiden flight | Taxi trials currently underway | Tech challenges almost iorned out*
++




++




++




.
Naval LCA undergoes various tests at HAL airport ahead of its much-awaited first flight.
-By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service
.
Bangalore: *The naval prototype (NP-1) of India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is slowly and steadily crossing every hurdle that has come up its way in the last 18 months. With a roll out rivaling even blockbuster movie releases in July 2010 -- the NP-1 -- believed to be the only naval aircraft in the light weight category in the world with aircraft carrier operational capabilities, will be airborne
soon.*
While its designers at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and its makers at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are not speaking officially and off the record, sources at the shop-floor who
tweak technology for NP-1 daily, inform Express that *&#8216;it is a matter of time before NP-1 hits the skies.&#8217;* Initially, it was envisaged that the naval aircraft will be a derivative of the Indian Air Force version of the LCA (Tejas). But the peculiar requirements of naval operations coupled with safety norms led to substantial differences in the aircraft structure, resulting in delays.
*&#8220;The overwhelming challenge of large structural loads, better over the nose vision has lead to heavier undercarriage and re-design of the front fuselage.* Commonality was achieved in only few mechanical systems and avionics. The stringent naval requirements and *rigorous ground testing of various systems is nearing completion,&#8221;* say
sources.
*The modification of flight control laws, cabin pressurization including environment control checks, laser precision alignments and host of associated naval flight critical systems are in its
final stages. &#8220;The landing gear with its high sink rate of 7.1 m/sec arising from ship deck requirement has imposed serious challenge to the
designer which has now been successfully
circumvented.
.
 The NP-1 has completed its
ground vibration test (GVT), structural coupling test (SCT) and extensive system integration tests with power plant* using state-of-the-art facilities,&#8221;
sources said.
*Fuel management with dump facility for
emergency recovery on board is a special feature of this aircraft. The heart of the flight control system (FCS), which is a quadruplex redundant digital flight control computer supplemented by LEVCON (leading edge vortex controller) air data computer, is being integrated with auto throttle and arrester hook.* &#8220;The LEVCON functionalities for conventional and ramp take-off is under
regression checks for final assessment on various simulators prior to its implementation on the aircraft. *The arrester hook design for ship-borne operations is yet another unique carrier borne
feature,&#8221;* sources said.
*The aircraft so far has completed four engine ground runs (EGRs), including three with after burner for entire operational envelope. &#8220;The platform is underway for low and high-speed ground handling and flying quality checks to assess the aircraft characteristics prior to its
maiden flight,&#8221;* sources said.
When specifically asked about a possible date by
which NP-1 will finally do what it is meant to be &#8211;
flying &#8211; sources said: &#8220;It is scheduled to fly this month. Many challenges are new and we are taking them head on.&#8221;

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## Shaurya

If it gets approved, we will atleast be clear that IAF is the main nautanki here not drdo or hal, meaning the aircraft was perfectly made, only IAF did gandugiri there .... let's watch it...

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## Bl[i]tZ

Naval LCA will be a force multiplier and will play a very significant supporting role to the Mig29Ks.

Another very important point is the learning process that goes into making a naval jet.

We need to complete these projects on the deadline - 2014.

There is a huge requirement of light weight fighters in the AF as well.

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## Velocity

Q. If LCA mark ll will come, whether for navy present Tejas-Lca enough or new will come of Navy Mark ll version.


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## praveen007

Velocity said:


> Q. If LCA mark ll will come, whether for navy present Tejas-Lca enough or new will come of Navy Mark ll version.


.
Navy will go for the mark-II verson when it is avilable.
Till now the mark-1 varient is used for validation of technology. And current NP-1 have nearly all the advance features of mark-II except the engine.

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## Velocity

praveen007 said:


> .
> Navy will go for the mark-II verson when it is avilable.
> Till now the mark-1 varient is used for validation of technology. And current NP-1 have nearly all the advance features of mark-II except the engine.


 
Does it mean the size and all other parameters except engine are as per mark ll?


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## praveen007

Velocity said:


> Does it mean the size and all other parameters except engine are as per mark ll?


.
Yes, very much.
For more information visit this link.
LCA Tejas - Indian Defense Projects Sentinel


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## Jason bourne

praveen007 said:


> .
> Navy will go for the mark-II verson when it is avilable.
> Till now the mark-1 varient is used for validation of technology. And current NP-1 have nearly all the advance features of mark-II except the engine.



thanks u cleard some of my doubts


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## Velocity

Thank u very much. Nice info new web.


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## sudhir007

Old news but informative 


> Livefist: LCA (Navy) Programme Director's Speech On NP-1 Roll-out Day
> 
> The following is the full text of the speech that was delivered by LCA-Navy programme director COMMODORE CD BALAJI on 06 July 2010 at the roll-out ceremony of the aircraft's first prototype, NP-1.
> 
> In 2003, based on the progress made on the Air Force LCA Programme the Govt approved Phase-1 development of 2 LCA Navy Prototypes that would operate from an aircraft carrier with the concept of Ski-jump Take-off and Arrested Recovery (STOBAR). Navy actively supported this Challenging programme to design, develop, build and flight test a carrier borne aircraft for the first time in the country. The two prototypes under development would be used to demonstrate that the aircraft is capable of operating from a ship, i.e., carrier compatible.
> 
> The question often asked is &#8216;what are the changes in LCA(Navy) in comparison to the Air Force version?&#8217; Typically the aircraft will get airborne in about 200m over the ski-jump on the ship as against a land based take-off run of about 800m. Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship and the aircraft stops in 90m which is about 1/10th land based stopping distance.
> 
> Unlike shore based take-off and landing applications, typical ship borne requirements imposes large loads on the aircraft structure which entails new design. Also, the nose section of the aircraft is drooped down in order to have better pilot vision for ship landing. Whilst the external aerodynamic shape of the aircraft is same as the Air Force Trainer, the internal structure is entirely different due to larger loads resulting from carrier operations. However, all Mechanical, Avionics and Flight Control system layout are by and large common with the Air Force version. The design of LCA(Navy) has been performed in a 3Dimensional Computer Aided Design (CAD) concurrent engineering environment. A Digital Mock Up (DMU) of the aircraft was ultimately created which had all the internal equipment laid out. This helped in visualising possible areas of clash with various system groups and the structural interfaces due a possibility of &#8216;virtual walk through&#8217;. No physical mock up has been built. Due to first time design, there could be additional reserve factors taken as a conservative measure, but would be optimised based on experience in the future prototypes. This would result in significant weight savings.
> 
> Areas identified as challenges over and above the Air Force Version were structural design, Landing gear design, arrester hook, introduction of a new control surface (LEVCON) and ski-jump take-off. A case in point for Naval specific activities was the development of large sized landing gear forgings. Midhani had to develop the special tooling and processes and provide the special steel forgings. In addition, Bharat Forge, Pune provided the near shaped forgings of the major landing gear elements. These have been fabricated at private companies at Hyderabad and landing gears have been assembled at HAL (Nasik). Some of the typical challenges encountered during the development cycle, resulted in them taking longer than anticipated. However, today these have been resolved and we all await the aircraft&#8217;s rollout in the presence of the Hon&#8217;ble Raksha Mantri and the Chief of the Naval Staff.
> 
> In its primary role of Air to Air combat, the aircraft will carry both Close Combat Missiles (CCM) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles. In its Air to Sea role, the aircraft will carry Anti Ship Missile (ASM). The aircraft can carry external fuel drop tanks to increase range and endurance. The aircraft can carry a wide variety of bombs based on role requirement.
> 
> To meet specific Naval testing, new test facilities have and are being developed. A new landing gear drop test facility has been created to handle testing to Naval requirements for qualifying larger landing gear loads. A hardware-in-loop simulation for flight control system testing called &#8216;Iron-bird&#8217; has been set up and functioning. In this facility, entire hydraulics, flight control system and avionics would be integrated for the evaluation of the software. The Avionics and Weapon test rigs have been suitably modified to test the changes in system layout and architecture required for the Naval version. Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) to simulate an aircraft carrier with ski-jump and arrested recovery is being set up at the Naval Air Station at Goa. The ski-jump facility is expected to be ready by the last quarter of 2011 and the landing area a year later. Goa Shipyard Ltd is handling the complete structural work, system integration and operations. R&D Engineers and CCE(R&D) west Pune are handling the civil works. Specialised equipment supply is from Russia in order to have the same configuration as on the Vikramaditya.
> 
> It is critical to demonstrate carrier compatibility to infuse confidence in the Indian Navy that we indeed have a Carrier borne aircraft and towards that it is critical to demonstrate ski-jump take off and validate the simulations that have been carried out by the control Law team. Navy has defined the Mission and Performance requirements expected of the aircraft. As mentioned earlier, due to first time design, there may be shortfall in certain parameters with the current engine. Two more LCA(Navy) prototypes has been sanctioned by the Govt in Dec 2009 with a higher thrust engine to enable meeting the Mission objectives set out by the Navy.
> 
> The act of &#8216;Rollout&#8217; is a significant milestone in the development process of an aircraft wherein it is structurally complete, equipment installed, plumbing and wiring completed. The aircraft is on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power and is a precursor to the phase of ground based system integration testing leading the engine ground run, taxi tests and flight. Every effort is being made by all the stake holders to have the maiden flight in 3 to 4 months time.
> 
> This day of NP1 rollout has been possible with the active involvement of HAL as the Principal Partner of ADA and support by DRDO, CSIR labs, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Public and Private sector industries, Educational Institutions and a host of other agencies. I wish to salute all of those who have contributed as a composite LCA Navy Team in realising this important milestone and look forward to the same spirit to take the aircraft towards its maiden flight at the earliest.


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## Splurgenxs

leave it to the paranoid TARMAK007 to fk up whole images ...

anyways looking good...

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## peep

Naval LCA ( with AESA and Astra MK-2 ) will throw PN out of the water.


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## farhan_9909

Congrats my friends

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## rockstarIN

It is a real achievement if we succeeds, currently US, UK, France, Russia & China has the capability to make Navel fighters.

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## buddyboyyash

peep said:


> Naval LCA ( with AESA and Astra MK-2 ) will throw PN out of the water.


 
even though m an indian...that was rude...

we need not be like some stupid fanatics...

here we talking about tech development and u talking abt PN

try to focus more on india n leave talking about pakistan where its not immediately required

hav a gud life

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## PEACEMAKER2010

returned back after almost a year still i see lot of internet warriors

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## Black Widow

Just now I visited HAL airport, I saw lot of activity there. I saw a small bus full of technicians and pilots going towards airport. I saw a small helo hovering in sky for hours. 

Early morning I saw Su30MKI flying form Airport (MKI is rare in bangalore.) Looks like something big cooking here..  

@NLCA: N-LCA will test many subcomponent except AESA, New Engine, and Hook. The main focus will be on testing undercarriage and landing gear (Note that these two are most Important for carrier borne plane). AESA will be tested first on LSP3. New engine will be tested on LCA SP1-6?? (No Idea). Hook will be tested after some time.

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## Black Widow

Just now I visited HAL airport, I saw lot of activity there. I saw a small bus full of technicians and pilots going towards airport. I saw a small helo hovering in sky for hours. 

Early morning I saw Su30MKI flying form Airport (MKI is rare in bangalore.) Looks like something big cooking here..  

@NLCA: N-LCA will test many subcomponent except AESA, New Engine, and Hook. The main focus will be on testing undercarriage and landing gear (Note that these two are most Important for carrier borne plane). AESA will be tested first on LSP3. New engine will be tested on LCA SP1-6?? (No Idea). Hook will be tested after some time.

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## KRAIT

Black Widow said:


> Just now I visited HAL airport, I saw lot of activity there. I saw a small bus full of technicians and pilots going towards airport. I saw a small helo hovering in sky for hours.
> 
> Early morning I saw Su30MKI flying form Airport (MKI is rare in bangalore.) Looks like something big cooking here..
> 
> @NLCA: N-LCA will test many subcomponent except AESA, New Engine, and Hook. The main focus will be on testing undercarriage and landing gear (Note that these two are most Important for carrier borne plane). AESA will be tested first on LSP3. New engine will be tested on LCA SP1-6?? (No Idea). Hook will be tested after some time.


Is AESA operational...didn't know that...i thought we haven't completed it yet...


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## Black Widow

KRAIT said:


> Is AESA operational...didn't know that...i thought we haven't completed it yet...




AFAIK AESA is not operational.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Welcome another Teja ... Welcome to Indian inventory. 
Hope u get operational soon.

.
.
.
.
.
By the way *Good luck* and Best wishes.

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## T90TankGuy

Black Widow said:


> Just now I visited HAL airport, I saw lot of activity there. I saw a small bus full of technicians and pilots going towards airport. I saw a small helo hovering in sky for hours.
> 
> Early morning I saw Su30MKI flying form Airport (MKI is rare in bangalore.) Looks like something big cooking here..
> 
> @NLCA: N-LCA will test many subcomponent except AESA, New Engine, and Hook. The main focus will be on testing undercarriage and landing gear (Note that these two are most Important for carrier borne plane). AESA will be tested first on LSP3. New engine will be tested on LCA SP1-6?? (No Idea). Hook will be tested after some time.



you went to hal airport? i thought it was no longer operational for civilian flights.


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## IND151

awesome news 

made my day!


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## IND151

Shaurya said:


> If it gets approved, we will atleast be clear that IAF is the main nautanki here not drdo or hal, meaning the aircraft was perfectly made, only IAF did gandugiri there .... let's watch it...



as i said earlier IAF wants LCA to be have same level of quality that western fighters enjoy

the reason is they face PLAAF and PAF threat and so cant afford compromise on quality

this is not possible as we are much behind in fighter tech and only way to catch up is keep evolving LCA

on other hand *IN *selected * LCA *( as my understanding suggests ) because it can compromise on quality as it faces really no competition in IOR 
*
PN *doesnt have AC Carriers and *Chinese AC Carrier *cant be stationed in bases near India for foreseeable future

the only navy that can truly challenge IN in IOR is USN but US is our ally

PLAN presence in IOR will be significant after a decade only


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## The enlightened

Good news.
But where will they use it. IAC-2 should be big enough to accommodate larger fighters/bombers than the MiG and Gorkshov and IAC-1 are full already.


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## Black Widow

jbgt90 said:


> you went to hal airport? i thought it was no longer operational for civilia flights.



No need to go inside. You can see everything from outside. Walls are just 6 feet high. you just know to climb tree.. Climb on one tree and see the beauty  .

or got on Volvo AC bus, sit at rear seat, you can see all what's going at HAL airport.. 

---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------




The enlightened said:


> Good news.
> But where will they use it. IAC-2 should be big enough to accommodate larger fighters/bombers than the MiG and Gorkshov and IAC-1 are full already.




What if N-LCA technology will be shared with N-AMCA??? or what if we loose few MiG29K in action, will we run to Russia in middle of war??? N-LCA will be great filler for MiG29k. Along with we can use it from ground bases as well. (I think Carrier born fighter can take off from land.. )


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## Capt.Popeye

PEACEMAKER2010 said:


> returned back after almost a year still i see lot of internet warriors



Where else will they go? The internet is the only place where somebody can huff and puff and fight like hell and have nary a bruise for all those exertions!!!!

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## rockstarIN

IND151 said:


> as i said earlier IAF wants LCA to be have same level of quality that western fighters enjoy
> 
> the reason is they face PLAAF and PAF threat and so cant afford compromise on quality
> 
> this is not possible as we are much behind in fighter tech and only way to catch up is keep evolving LCA
> 
> on other hand *IN *selected * LCA *( as my understanding suggests ) because it can compromise on quality as it faces really no competition in IOR
> *
> PN *doesnt have AC Carriers and *Chinese AC Carrier *cant be stationed in bases near India for foreseeable future
> 
> the only navy that can truly challenge IN in IOR is USN but US is our ally
> 
> PLAN presence in IOR will be significant after a decade only



It is not a compromise on quality at all in case of N-LCA. The IN already quoted that they wish to have a Rafale-N at the first place as own fighter but they knew its not possible make to Rafale in the first attempt. 

IN faced lots of maintenance/spare parts trouble for its fighters and really wants to have own jet fighter. Remember all our surface ships are produced by ourselves. 

Secondly there is very less fighter jets availed for ski-jumping carrier operation. I think except Russian Migs & Su series nothing is there for such type. So better to make one for our own.

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## ironwarrier

i think this should be one of the last tejas mk1 and they should concentrate more on tejas mk2 more. I expect Mk2 to be much bigger, stealthier and world class product. It has to be perfect at any cost


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> That is exactly what I meant.
> The program is a failure.. after all.. dont you have people asking for scrapping of the F-35..
> Even though the A model is great..



That are apples and oranges, because F35 has not only technical issues, but mainly cost issues. The fighter turned out to be many times more expensive than expected, which makes it not useful anymore as a one fighter replacement.
LCA on the other side is delayed for technical issues, but it still can fulfill what it was aimed for. More over, it is still planned around the unit costs it was aimed to be. So once when we can get it into production and inducted to the forces, we might have failed to keep the timelines of the project, but "the fighter" will not be a failure and that's what you stated at first. 



Velocity said:


> Does it mean *the size and all other parameters* except engine are as per mark ll?



Not completely, the MK2 will have a slightly longer fuselage, because of the new engine and internal fuel tanks. The weight will be higher too and some minor modifications on the air intakes are reportedly needed.



rockstar said:


> It is a real achievement if we succeeds, currently US, UK, France, Russia & China has the capability to make Navel fighters.



*No it's not!* N-LCA is an average carrier fighter, if at all and way more important is the air force varient, this is just a matter of pride and chest bumping as we saw at the roll out of the N-LCA mock up.


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Releasing soon: The making of LCA Navy (NP-1) & tech challenges


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## rockstarIN

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1776 Test Flights successfully. (08-Feb-2012). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242*,PV2-212*,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-44*,LSP5-63)

from 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1774 Test Flights successfully. (02-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-63)

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## sudhir007

Naval chief is right to be concerned about N-LCA | idrw.org

In Recent interview to &#8221; THE HINDU &#8220;, Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma had rebuked the programme for its performance and delays.Admiral Verma has been quoted as saying, &#8220;They [ADA] focused largely on the Air Force programme and the LCA [Navy] did fall behind&#8230;. There have been many promises made by the ADA but they failed us&#8230; It is often said that there is only 15 per cent difference between both versions. The Navy has always maintained that it may be 15 per cent in terms of material and systems, but it is a substantial part. And they [ADA] underestimated it.&#8221;

Why Naval chief should be concerned?? , well he should be since current development of Naval prototype -1 (NP-1) , is more of a Technology demonstrator rather then the actual aircraft which fly from the aircraft carriers in future , NP-1 which is based on PV-5 in terms of aircraft air frame, is it&#8217;s self based on Tejas MK-1 trainer variant , Navy long had ruled out that with current power plant of General Electric developed F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engines are insufficient to ever land on a ship&#8217;s deck .

Russian Modified INS Vikramaditya will join Indian Navy by mid of this year and INS Vikrant will completed its sea trials by 2015 and will be ready to be inducted into navy end of 2015 . but Navy chief might be concerned regarding lack of aircraft&#8217;s for the carrier fleet , Indian navy has started inducting naval variant of Mig-29 and already placed orders for further 29 more aircraft&#8217;s, totaling 45 aircraft&#8217;s , but all aircraft&#8217;s will not be delivered by 2015 which might take few more years for Russians to complete the order ,it is crucial phase for Indian navy since Navy will have two brand new aircraft carriers but less then 25 aircraft&#8217;s to operate , and many trainer aircraft&#8217;s have to based of INS Hansa base in Goa for Training of new Naval pilots , which will further reduce numbers of aircraft&#8217;s on Deck.

Concern is also because ADA is too occupied in developing Tejas MK-2 for air force and N-Tejas MK-2 will have to wait till 2015 and beyond , and there is also concern what if Tejas MK-2 faces further delays in construction or run into technical problems , which will see further delays in development of Naval Tejas . Navy already has funded development of 8 aircraft&#8217;s for Testing and evaluation and will have need of 60 aircraft&#8217;s which will operate along with Mig-29k .

Sources close to idrw.org mentioned that NP-1 or NP-2 , can actually take off from aircraft carrier but with minimum payload ,and only in certain wind condition which will not make it decent carrier based aircraft .Land based aircraft carrier facility in INS HANSA is coming up pretty fast and should be completely ready before year end . NP-1 after first few flights in Bangalore will be moving to Naval base in Goa , which in initial phase carry out Trails over Sea and when Land based carrier facility is ready will carry out trails from there and aircraft&#8217;s will be based there .

NP-1 has faced delays due to problems with its new landing gears , to sustain heavy landing of carrier deck , but also suffered due to heavy undercarriage , problems regarding both seems to be ironed out *and first flight is expected by March 2012 , if further problems don&#8217;t surface.*


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## RPK




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## RPK




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## russellpeters

great pictures!


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tech leap to future naval aircraft projects with LCA Navy on 'countdown' mode






India's self-reliance capabilities in taking up naval aircraft projects in future is sure to get a fillip with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) beginning the 'countdown of sort' for the first flight of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval Prototype (NP-1). The inspiring bit of this project is probably the maturing of a military industrial complex and the technological leap of Indian defence units &#8211; both government-owned and private sector.
The unique requirement of naval aircraft is the complex amalgamation of saline and humid environment of operation, restricted availability of deck run for launch or recovery and high operating load conditions. Such intricate needs call for basic design change to suit the carrier operations leading to strengthening of aircraft structure and landing gear, inclusion of leading edge vortex control (LEVCON) and arrester hook, improved engine, enhanced aerodynamic performance and incorporation of special material. 
The LEVCON surface is fitted at the front tip of the aircraft wing to ensure low landing speed, good controllability and better vision for the pilot. Such a surface is used on state-of-the-art US marine aircraft F-18. Usually, in leading and trailing edges linear actuators are used, however, the LEVCON was a biggest challenge to the designer as it has to be operated by a concealed rotary actuator with aerodynamic profiling of the connecting surface. The rotary actuator was designed in collaboration with foreign vendor.
&#8220;It threw related challenging requirement of testing and certification at a safety factor of 150 percent of maximum working load. The LEVCON test rig was designed in-house along with a dummy test specimen rotary actuator with similar specifications to avoid loss of usable item, thus saving few crores of rupees to the exchequer,&#8221; sources told Express. 
The feature of launch and recovery onboard carrier was another herculean assignment to be managed. The flare-less landing with high sink rate of 7.1 m/sec and heavy thumping with engine to full throttle till arrested by deck cable, is akin to a controlled crash of the aircraft on the ship every time it operates. This yields five times of loading on main landing gear as compared to Tejas. Sources say that in horizontal direction, the arrested shock recovery produces axial loads on aircraft structure of the tune of 4.5 g, calling for re-certification of all line replacement units (LRUs), components and associated systems of naval version to ensure fail safe operation repeatedly. 
&#8220;The ramp takeoff switch ensures that the aircraft is prepared with pre-defined functionality of each system in ship-borne operational mode. This ensures safe launch at max capable all-up weight with full fuel and weapon stores from a ship ski jump of 14 deg ramp profile, when released from deck hydraulic stopper. Such a dramatic launch imposes harsh loading of nose-landing gear during take-off ski-jump run amounting to five times of the IAF Tejas values. All of a sudden the landing gear is un-loaded at the point of exit of the ramp and allowed to extend to its fullest stroke in a wink of a second,&#8221; say sources.
The take-off and landing logics are integrated in its quadruplex digital redundant flight control system and open architecture computer for efficient interface between the pilot and the aircraft with the aim of easing work-load during launch and recovery phase and fail safe operation.
The LCA Navy is designed for strict operating conditions and emergency recovery, in that it can bring back weight to landing limits, quickly by jettisoning 1000 kg fuel in three minutes with the help of specially-designed fuel dump system. The testing and certification of unique design features for LCA Navy called for systematic plan of action to create new test facilities and deep study of certification philosophy.
The ADA has designed and fabricated various types of simulators, including engineer-in-loop, real-time software development and maintenance. The shore-based test facility (SBTF) at Goa with ski-jump launch and arrested recovery similar to aircraft carrier is ready. The arrester hook test facility, LEVCON test rig and landing gear drop test rig are also developed in-house.
There are more than 100 agencies involved with the LCA-Navy project. They include DRDO, HAL, CSIR, PSUs, private sector and academia, spread all over India, ranging from NAL, CARE, DARE, CVRDE, , DEBEL, LRDE, Midhani, CSIO, TCS, IITs, IISc and Naval Aviation at NHQ.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1777 Test Flights successfully. (10-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-212,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-44,LSP5-*64*)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1776 Test Flights successfully. (08-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-212,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-44,LSP5-63)

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## sudhir007




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## chairborne ranger

the wiki page for lca says that it can carry gbu-16 paveway ii . Has this been talked about?


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## sancho

chairborne ranger said:


> the wiki page for lca says that it can carry gbu-16 paveway ii . Has this been talked about?








Afaik, (from this point of view) the pic shows US Paveway LGB kit on the left wing and Israeli Griffin LGB kit on the right.

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1779 Test Flights successfully. (16-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-212,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-45*,*LSP5-65*)


LCA-Tejas has completed 1777 Test Flights successfully. (10-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-212,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-44,LSP5-64)


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## PEACEMAKER2010

Historically the IAF has a very poor record of supporting any indigenous efforts. It killed the HF-24, which was a very promising fighter for flimsy reasons. With the HF-24's demise, Indian aeronautical industry came to a grinding halt and remained so until the Tejas was taken up in the late 1980s. if we had gone ahead investing in R&D of HF-24 fighter today it would have been a different story

Its hoped the IAF does not do to the Tejas, what it did to the HF-24 a few decades ago. If it does, the Indian aeronautics industry will be crippled for much longer and the exchequer will continue to pay for highly expensive imports.


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## sherindian

PEACEMAKER2010 said:


> Historically the IAF has a very poor record of supporting any indigenous efforts. It killed the HF-24, which was a very promising fighter for flimsy reasons. With the HF-24's demise, Indian aeronautical industry came to a grinding halt and remained so until the Tejas was taken up in the late 1980s. if we had gone ahead investing in R&D of HF-24 fighter today it would have been a different story
> 
> Its hoped the IAF does not do to the Tejas, what it did to the HF-24 a few decades ago. If it does, the Indian aeronautics industry will be crippled for much longer and the exchequer will continue to pay for highly expensive imports.



that surely wont happen dude. coz india along with tejas is also working on indegeneous trainers, rta 70, saras, amca and bunch of other aircrafts and since private industry is also involved now indian aerospace is set to take off.


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## sathya

PEACEMAKER2010 said:


> Historically the IAF has a very poor record of supporting any indigenous efforts. It killed the HF-24, which was a very promising fighter for flimsy reasons. With the HF-24's demise, Indian aeronautical industry came to a grinding halt and remained so until the Tejas was taken up in the late 1980s. if we had gone ahead investing in R&D of HF-24 fighter today it would have been a different story
> 
> Its hoped the IAF does not do to the Tejas, what it did to the HF-24 a few decades ago. If it does, the Indian aeronautics industry will be crippled for much longer and the exchequer will continue to pay for highly expensive imports.




apart from other reasons, Indian press will barbique MOD & Airforce *****... if it kills tejas


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## 3Idiots

sathya said:


> apart from other reasons, Indian press will barbique MOD & Airforce *****... if it kills tejas



That said ..... ADA / HAL / DRDO must deliver on quality.

We have the luxury of having Su-30MKIs, Rafales etc to keep the IAF flying till a worthy LCA is developed.

Let them take the time and resources (off course, under the scrutiny of press and IAF) ..... but IAF must keep it's requirements stringent.

LCA must win against western fighters ... on capability and cost. Should have a USP (unique selling proposition).

It should have something which should make it winnable in aircraft competitions like those which we held for MMRCA.

In short, it should emulate the successes of HAL Dhruv, Akash missile (including Rajendra radar), lately Arjun tank .... and coming up induction of NAG, pinaka etc.

We don't want flying junks in the air, such as J-10 etc. (chinese have no option but to fly them premature .. since they can't buy from pretty much anybody now, russians included).


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## SamantK

3Idiots said:


> That said ..... ADA / HAL / DRDO must deliver on quality.
> 
> We have the luxury of having Su-30MKIs, Rafales etc to keep the IAF flying till a worthy LCA is developed.
> 
> Let them take the time and resources (off course, under the scrutiny of press and IAF) ..... but IAF must keep it's requirements stringent.
> 
> LCA must win against western fighters ... on capability and cost. Should have a USP (unique selling proposition).
> 
> It should have something which should make it winnable in aircraft competitions should those which we held for MMRCA.
> 
> In short, it should emulate the successes of HAL Dhruv, Akash missile (including Rajendra radar), lately Arjun tank .... and coming up induction of NAG, pinaka etc.
> 
> We don't was flying junks in the air, such as J-10 etc. (chinese have no option to fly them premature .. since they can't buy from pretty much anybody now, russians included).



You forgot to mention INS Arihant, Agni missiles...


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## 3Idiots

samantk said:


> You forgot to mention INS Arihant, Agni missiles...



Since you mention, these .... I definitely find elements of innovation, achievement in INS Arihant. (e.g. even china is still struggling with making nuclear submarines. Their nuclear subs are mostly in the port or in coastal waters, unlike ocean going nuclear subs of US, Russia, UK and France). If Arihant could actually hold out deep south in Indian ocean or pacific water for months at a time, then we do get to a stage significantly beyond chinese abilities in this area.

Agni is a relatively milder achievement as of yet. An MIRV version is yet to be tested.
Yes, some achievements are there.... making Agni missiles cannisterized (reduces maintenance costs), making them road mobile (hence the need to make it lighter and transportable; no need to maintain risky silos).

Long range missile technology will see true global standards when (i) we get MIRV versions, (ii) submarine lauched (Arihant launched), (iii) the range increases to atleast 10,000 kms.

Another thing for long range missile technology is CEP (Circular Error Probability) - but Agnis are thought to be quite well on that parameter (unlike chinese missiles).

So, to sum up, INS Arihant needs to prove on sea trials (and pray, no dirty accidents on the high seas and in the oceans). 
And long term missile technology needs quite a bit of upgradation in terms of achievement.

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## SamantK

3Idiots said:


> Since you mention, these .... I definitely find elements of innovation, achievement in INS Arihant. (e.g. even china is still struggling with making nuclear submarines. Their nuclear subs are mostly in the port or in coastal waters, unlike ocean going nuclear subs of US, Russia, UK and France). If Arihant could actually hold out deep south in Indian ocean or pacific water for months at a time, then we do get to a stage significantly beyond chinese abilities in this area.
> 
> Agni is a relatively milder achievement as of yet. An MIRV version is yet to be tested.
> Yes, some achievements are there.... making Agni missiles cannisterized (reduces maintenance costs), making them road mobile (hence the need to make it lighter and transportable; no need to maintain risky silos).
> 
> Long range missile technology will see true global standards when (i) we get MIRV versions, (ii) submarine lauched (Arihant launched), (iii) the range increases to atleast 10,000 kms.
> 
> Another thing for long range missile technology is CEP (Circular Error Probability) - but Agnis are thought to be quite well on that parameter (unlike chinese missiles).
> 
> So, to sum up, INS Arihant needs to prove on sea trials (and pray, no dirty accidents on the high seas and in the oceans).
> And long term missile technology needs quite a bit of upgradation in terms of achievement.



You have mentioned some fine points... However let me also remind you that they have been successful in their own right.. I would not call them successful products yet but undenyingly they have been very successful enablers.. For India which had to grow such sensitive technology is nothing but a success.. No single nation has been successful in its first attempt, you need to give them time to mature.. Each and every technology developed is a success... In the bigger scheme of things we forget to mention the small enablers.. The steel used for making our ships DS-40 was supposed to come from Russia, which did not come, the project was delayed but we developed the enabler which cannot be the reason ever again.. I hope you get my drift!


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## ICBM

This is the biggest problem with the Indian work culture. In regard to the steel for ship building, it did not take much effort by India to make it locally, but they only did it after nobody will sell to them. Why can't they first try to make stuff rather than buying which they can very well make.

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## sudhir007

Israeli Derby to be Prime BVRAAM for Tejas MK-1 | idrw.org

Indian air force has cleared proposal to equip Tejas MK-1 with Israeli Derby BVR Air to Air missile, and Government of India will Shorty sign a contract with the makers of the missiles Rafael Advanced Defence systems soon.

Tejas MK-1 which has a hybrid radar based on Israeli Elta&#8217;s 2032 radar and Indian technology seems to be the prime reason behind the selection, although DRDO is working on developing a home grown Air to Air Missile under Astra Project, but it seems that missile will take time to carry out all its test parameters and currently has been integrated with Sukhoi su 30 MKI aircrafts only and will also see first firing of the missile in mid of 2012.

Astra BVRAAM should be ready by the time Tejas MK-2 enters production, but major chunk of the testing of the missile will be done from Sukhoi su 30 MKI. Indian navy already operates Derby BVRAAM on its SEA Harriers aircrafts, which under limited upgrade program was equipped with Elta 2032 radar, along with Derby BVRAAM.

*Sources close to idrw.org also have told us that Python-5 might be also be considered for Tejas MK-1 for meeting short range Air to Air missile ,Russian R-73 was successfully had been integrated with Tejas MK-1, but it seems some issues might have surfaced due to which air force is also interested in Israeli Python-5 .*


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Well its a very old news.


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## Jason bourne

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Well its a very old news.



NOT VERY OLD JUST ONE YEAR


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## Black Widow

3Idiots said:


> That said ..... ADA / HAL / DRDO must deliver on quality.
> 
> We have the luxury of having Su-30MKIs, Rafales etc to keep the IAF flying till a worthy LCA is developed.
> 
> Let them take the time and resources (off course, under the scrutiny of press and IAF) ..... but IAF must keep it's requirements stringent.
> 
> LCA must win against western fighters ... on capability and cost. Should have a USP (unique selling proposition).
> 
> It should have something which should make it winnable in aircraft competitions like those which we held for MMRCA.
> 
> In short, it should emulate the successes of HAL Dhruv, Akash missile (including Rajendra radar), lately Arjun tank .... and coming up induction of NAG, pinaka etc.
> 
> We don't want flying junks in the air, such as WWW-10 etc. (###### have no option but to fly them premature .. since they can't buy from pretty much anybody now, russians included).



Please dont bring others in this thread. They have there philosophy, we have ours. We follow A guideline where we develop then test then use it. Where as other do different.

lets focus on our strength rather than there weakness.


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## sancho

> * Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension*
> 
> ...As things stand, the Kaveri has completed close to 60 hours of flight-testing at the Gromov institute, the highlight of which was the use of a fully indigenous FADEC. *However, the flight testing phase has also accentuated the engine's fundamental problems that have kept it in development for so long. Adding to a littany of woes, compounded by overall insufficient performance parameters, are problems in the turbine and fan assemblies, possibly structural issues as well*...
> 
> ...Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a *top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year*...
> 
> ...DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), *all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country*, though not for lack of trying. Programme managers believe *single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems  deformation of blades*during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures...
> 
> ...*The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league*, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. *Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme* (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) *will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments*...



Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension - SP's Aviation


Finally they understood that GTRE is not able to do it and how important good planning is for such a development. Both key problems in the LCA project!

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## sancho

> India At The Singapore Air Show



Livefist: India At The Singapore Air Show

Nice models of LCA!


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## SamantK

sancho said:


> Livefist: India At The Singapore Air Show
> 
> Nice models of LCA!



I dont know why he had to be embrassed by it... I meant about Shiv of live fist..

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## Jason bourne

samantk said:


> I dont know why he had to be embrassed by it... I meant about Shiv of live fist..





> The Singapore Air Show earlier this month had an Indian pavilion that was stuffed with these clunky Tejas models and little else.*Not quite sure why the government bothers to book space and go to the effort at all if this is all it can really come up with. Embarrassing*.I have friends who went round to see. Livefist reader Pradeep Yamujala was kind enough to send me these photographs he took while he was at the show.



u mean this ..may be govt has cancled his tickit to singapore

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## saurabh

sancho said:


> Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension - SP's Aviation
> 
> 
> Finally they understood that GTRE is not able to do it and how important good planning is for such a development. Both key problems in the LCA project!



They should rather understand that any govt agency would be equally inefficient and slow.


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## bee3690

^^LIAR LIAR , not exactly a good one arent you !!!


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## satishkumarcsc

wanglaokan said:


> LCA(the least combatable airplane) is APPARENTLY a junk compared to J10A. j-10 is the same standard with Rafale, LCA is nowhere near pass. LCA is a melting pot consited of different components and parts from all over the world, it is not a par with JF17 let alone J-10A, which is a 4.5 generation plane recognized by the world. Not to offend, just tell the truth.



Comparing a medium class aircraft with a light class aircraft...do you know anything about aviation? 

It is like saying a 747 can carry more people than a 737.


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> Livefist: India At The Singapore Air Show
> 
> Nice models of LCA!



At least you people could put some advance weapons on model to make general impression of ADVANCE MULTIROLE FIGHTER.
What it holds dumb bombs, fuel tanks, SRAAM which are of no value now days. Just Lightning POD and LGB doesn't change the image because almost every Multirole fighter in the word is capable of carrying these goodies. 
Poor marketing, i say or HAL not focusing on foreign sale.


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## Abingdonboy

danger-zone said:


> At least you people could put some advance weapons on model to make general impression of ADVANCE MULTIROLE FIGHTER.
> What it holds dumb bombs, fuel tanks, SRAAM which are of no value now days. Just Lightning POD and LGB doesn't change the image because almost every Multirole fighter in the word is capable of carrying these goodies.
> Poor marketing, i say or HAL not focusing on foreign sale.


 

Take your ignorant comments elsewhere, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Of course what is presented on a model in a airshow is a summary of all the LCA can do-NOT!!

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## Irfan Baloch

Abingdonboy said:


> Take your ignorant comments elsewhere, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Of course what is presented on a model in a airshow is a summary of all the LCA can do-NOT!!



what about the possibility of making an appearance in Farnborugh airshow? not the static one but a flight display!!
that will be interesting


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## DANGER-ZONE

Abingdonboy said:


> *Take your ignorant comments elsewhere, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.* Of course what is presented on a model in a airshow is a summary of all the LCA can do-NOT!!



if you were unable to understand my point, don't call it ignorance because it represent your level of knowledge.

No BVR missiles, No smart weapons, No Stand off weapons, No AGM, etc. these all dummy attachments to a model leave good impression on stall visitors, other wise it would just be a WORDED multi role fighter.
This thing is called *"PRESENTATION"*.
You were at an international EXPO, only where unique thing attract customers and Tejas model was looking too normal.

For example, JF-17 was presented with various weapon configuration either on stalls or on static display. now numerous countries showed interest in it because of its low cost and multi role presentation.


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## Abingdonboy

Irfan Baloch said:


> what about the possibility of making an appearance in Farnborugh airshow? not the static one but a flight display!!
> that will be interesting



What's the purpose of this? The LCA has a very strict test process which requires all airframes to be conducting numerous flights a week, there is no gap to send a platform off to a foreign airshow. HAL/IAF are about results not cheap PR stunts. Maybe once the LCA enters into active IAF service an operational unit can take 1-2 machines over.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------




danger-zone said:


> if you were unable to understand my point, don't call it ignorance because it represent your level of knowledge.
> 
> No BVR missiles, No smart weapons, No Stand off weapons, No AGM, etc. these all dummy attachments to a model leave good impression on stall visitors, other wise it would just be a WORDED multi role fighter.
> This thing is called "PRESENTATION".




Well how about you do your research and take all you information from plastic models? The LCA will have advanced BVRs,AGMs and at a later date Stand-off weapons (which ever such weapon is selected for IAF "SUPER" 30 UPG will be retrofitted on most IAF platforms including Mig-29UPG and LCA, wheras M2k UPG and MMRCA will come with Stand-off weapons of their own).

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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> At least you people could put some advance weapons on model to make general impression of ADVANCE MULTIROLE FIGHTER.
> What it holds dumb bombs, fuel tanks, SRAAM which are of no value now days. Just Lightning POD and LGB doesn't change the image because almost every Multirole fighter in the word is capable of carrying these goodies.
> Poor marketing, i say or HAL not focusing on foreign sale.



True, some can show them at static displays of air shows, while LCA already has an LDP and LGBs integrated and that although it's only a prototype so far isn't it? 
People with knowledge that visit the show will understand how advanced LCA can be, so don't bother too much about it.



Irfan Baloch said:


> what about the possibility of making an appearance in Farnborugh airshow? not the static one but a flight display!!
> that will be interesting



Only when a final prodduction version would be available, we see HAL and Dhruv at various air shows and so will be LCA when the time comes, but I prefer to see it inducted in IAF.


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## Jason bourne

sancho said:


> True, some can show them at static displays of air shows, while LCA already has an LDP and LGBs integrated and that although it's only a prototype so far isn't it?
> People with knowledge that visit the show will understand how advanced LCA can be, so don't bother too much about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Only when a final prodduction version would be available, we see HAL and Dhruv at various air shows and so will be LCA when the time comes, but I prefer to see it inducted in IAF.



sancho heard that 2 tejas mk1 will be inducted in march this year any news abt that ? hope this time it wnt get delayed ...


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## sancho

Jason bourne said:


> sancho heard that 2 tejas mk1 will be inducted in march this year any news abt that ? hope this time it wnt get delayed ...



Not going to happen, recent news said that IAF wants to wait till FOC till serial production can start, so an induction will be further delayed to 2013 or even 14 I would guess. That's actually a shame, because it's normal for such fighter developments, that it will be inducted and then further improved with software upgrades or integration of certain weapons or techs. The base design of LCA MK1 will remain the same anyway, so they could have done this too, but IAF seems to have other standards for LCA.

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## Alfa-Fighter

Guys , LCA MK-2 is already designed..


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## Jason bourne

sancho said:


> Not going to happen, recent news said that IAF wants to wait till FOC till serial production can start, so an induction will be further delayed to 2013 or even 14 I would guess. That's actually a shame, because it's normal for such fighter developments, that it will be inducted and then further improved with software upgrades or integration of certain weapons or techs. The base design of LCA MK1 will remain the same anyway, so they could have done this too, but IAF seems to have other standards for LCA.



sancho thanks for reply but i want to unlike this post


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## sathya

lets hope for LCA lsp-7 first.. can happen anytime now..

LSP 6 might throw some light on upgrade..

meanwhile LSP 1, 2 & 3 are not flying since december 11'.. may be undergoing new system integration


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## farhan_9909

Abingdonboy said:


> Take your ignorant comments elsewhere, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Of course what is presented on a model in a airshow is a summary of all the LCA can do-NOT!!



actually it is you which has no idea

so many article are published about the singapore airshow..and even in russian article JF-17 is mentioned for export in the same singapore airshow bt LCa nt even in the local media

the purpose of showing a Product is airshow is mainly to sell the product

so obviously LCA was there for teh same purpose bt *IGNORED*


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## sancho

Jason bourne said:


> sancho thanks for reply but i want to unlike this post



I don't like it either, but what to do. 




farhan_9909 said:


> the purpose of showing a Product is airshow is mainly to sell the product



And to show the capabilities of manufacturers like HAL to develop and produce aircrafts, that's why the government presented several different aircrafts and weaponsystems there. Btw, interesting to see a real post from you and not only the desperate try to gather more thanks from Indian members.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> Not going to happen, recent news said that IAF wants to wait till FOC till serial production can start, so an induction will be further delayed to 2013 or even 14 I would guess. That's actually a shame, because it's normal for such fighter developments, that it will be inducted and then further improved with software upgrades or integration of certain weapons or techs. The base design of LCA MK1 will remain the same anyway, so they could have done this too, but IAF seems to have other standards for LCA.


I think the two he's talking about are the LSP 7 and 8 which were supposed to be given to the IAF for User trials last year but got delayed till march( dont think its gonna be march though as these two haven't even flown yet)


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## janon

Naval LCA to take off next month:

Navy's Tejas fighter revs for take-off

From the article:

The Indian Navy has signalled strong support to the naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), even before the indigenous fighter makes its first flight next month. In New Delhi, on Wednesday, the defence ministrys apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) sanctioned the building of eight Naval LCA aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The eight fighters will be a mix of single-seat fighters and twin-seat trainers. The money for these has also been allocated, says a senior Ministry of Defence official who was at the DAC meeting.

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## rockstarIN

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1785 Test Flights successfully. (24-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,PV3-331,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-45,LSP5-66)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1780 Test Flights successfully. (17-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-212,PV3-330,LSP1-68,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-45,LSP5-65)


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007



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## Black Widow

janon said:


> Naval LCA to take off next month:
> 
> Navy's Tejas fighter revs for take-off
> 
> From the article:
> 
> The Indian Navy has signalled strong support to the naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), even before the indigenous fighter makes its first flight next month. In New Delhi, on Wednesday, the defence ministrys apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) sanctioned the building of eight Naval LCA aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The eight fighters will be a mix of single-seat fighters and twin-seat trainers. The money for these has also been allocated, says a senior Ministry of Defence official who was at the DAC meeting.




I am doubtful on N-LCA. India has never made carrier operational fighter plane, Landing and taking off from deck is difficult job. I think it will take 3-4 attempt to make deck operational LCA.

If N-LCA can take off by march, it will take End of the year or next year to make it deck operable. Take off can be achieved but landing will be difficult.Lets see how HAL will make it happen.. 

(Touch wood)


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1786 Test Flights successfully. (01-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,*PV3-332*,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-45,LSP5-66)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1785 Test Flights successfully. (24-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,PV3-331,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-45,LSP5-66)


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## sudhir007

Tejas Official website Hake

www.tejas.gov.in


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## SamantK

sudhir007 said:


> Tejas Official website Hake
> 
> --



oh man thats too bad.. wtf our govt is doing!!! this is very very sad!!


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## Lord Of Gondor

sudhir007 said:


> Tejas Official website Hake
> 
> --


Damn!
The website was really informative!
Hope it gets back online.


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## killerx

it is hacked indeed and by egyption thats a suprise what they got to do with india or tejas must be paksitani


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1787 Test Flights successfully. (03-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,PV3-332,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,*LSP4-46*,LSP5-66)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1786 Test Flights successfully. (01-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,PV3-332,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-45,LSP5-66)


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## hembo

Operation Leh:












---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 PM ----------

Formation Flying
















---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

Trainer

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## hembo

Limited Series Production

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## rockstarIN

HD video of Aero India 2011 LCA performance.

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## aamerjamal

how many total hard points it have?


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## Abingdonboy

aamerjamal said:


> how many total hard points it have?



3 ("wet" stations) on either wing plus 1 on centreline plus 2 ("dry" stations) for recce/targeting pod.

Not to mention the Derby can be carried in duo-lanchers.


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## rockstarIN

Total 9 hard points.


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## RPK

restored


Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft - Official Website


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> 3 ("wet" stations) on either wing plus 1 on centreline plus 2 ("dry" stations) for recce/targeting pod.
> 
> Not to mention the Derby can be carried in duo-lanchers.



LCA has only 1 station for pods and where did you found the duo-launchers? That might be theoretically possible, since the mid wingstation can hold bigger loads, but not even a single Derby was integrated yet.

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## rahul_rao

sancho said:


> LCA has only 1 station for pods and where did you found the duo-launchers? That might be theoretically possible, since the mid wingstation can hold bigger loads, but not even a single Derby was integrated yet.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1790 Test Flights successfully. (06-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,*PV3-333*,*LSP1-69*,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,*LSP5-67*)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1787 Test Flights successfully. (03-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-214,PV3-332,LSP1-68,LSP2-199,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-66)


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## chairborne ranger

cant wait till we get the mk2.... ~125kn of thrust will probably make it supercruise


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## sancho

chairborne ranger said:


> cant wait till we get the mk2.... ~125kn of thrust will probably make it supercruise



LCA MK2 will never have that much thrust, because they get the same engine the Super Hornets or the Gripen NG uses now, which offers around 98kN thrust. Since that is enough to provide the Gripen NG with SC capabilities, it could be possible for LCA MK2 as well, but thrust alone isn't enough and the drag issues of LCAs design could be a problem. We will have to wait and see!

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## PEACEMAKER2010

*FIRST PHOTOS: LCA Tejas LSP-7 FLIGHT tests*

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## rahul_rao

sancho said:


> LCA MK2 will never have that much thrust, because they get the same engine the Super Hornets or the Gripen NG uses now, which offers around 98kN thrust. Since that is enough to provide the Gripen NG with SC capabilities, it could be possible for LCA MK2 as well, but thrust alone isn't enough and the drag issues of LCAs design could be a problem. We will have to wait and see!


 

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest thrust F414 variant, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system. It will feature a six stage turbofan.


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## sancho

rahul_rao said:


> The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest thrust F414 variant, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system. It will feature a six stage turbofan.



That is available now and based on the Super Hornet engine, while the higher thrust versions above 100kN are based on the future GE 414 EDE and EPE. The earlier will be developed for USN, while the latter is available for export customers, that would fund the development. We decided to take ready and proven GE engines as a stopgap only, not to further develop it and pay extra costs for it. That's what we might do with Snecma and based on the Kaveri engine.

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## rockstarIN

*Finally, LCA Tejas LSP-7 Flies*

Did we miss this here??

DRDO Statement: Tejas Limited Series Production - 7 (LSP-7) aircraft took-off for its maiden flight from HAL airport at 4:27 pm on 9th March 2012. This test flight is significant for the program, as LSP -7 build-standard is close to the initial operational clearance (IOC) standard. *Accordingly LSP -7 aircraft, along with LSP - 8 will be offered to the Indian Air Force for user evaluation trials (UET).* The flight was also significant considering the fact that for the first time &#8220;Production Test Schedule&#8221; was used for the first flight of an LSP aircraft in this program. This is also the first time that maiden flight of the aircraft was not accompanied by the customary &#8216;chase&#8217; aircraft, which is an indicator to the level of confidence in the machine. The flight lasted 28 minutes with Gp Capt KK Venugopal at the controls in the cockpit and Wg Cdr Kabadwal of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) as Test Director in the telemetry. During the test flight,* performance of the aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar (MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and Instrument Landing System (ILS) was satisfactory, providing a moment of pride for all the stake holders which include ADA, HAL, IAF, CEMILAC, DG AQA, ADE and NAL among others.*

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## Paan Singh

> This is also the first time that maiden flight of the aircraft was not accompanied by the customary &#8216;chase&#8217; aircraft, which is an indicator to the level of confidence in the machine.



what is the benefit of chase ac?


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## satishkumarcsc

Prism said:


> what is the benefit of chase ac?



To find out if anything is going wrong on the outer side of aircraft...

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## Abhishek_

Prism said:


> what is the benefit of chase ac?



abe kahin engine band ho gaya toh dhakka lagane ke liye

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## Paan Singh

Abhishek_ said:


> abe kahin engine band ho gaya toh dhakka lagane ke liye





---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------




satishkumarcsc said:


> To find out if anything is going wrong on the outer side of aircraft...



Are u sure??i have doubts

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## satishkumarcsc

Prism said:


> ---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Are u sure??i have doubts



Yes the chase aircraft is the aircraft which observes the flight of the test aircraft close by.

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## Peaceful Civilian

I want to ask that India is getting Rafale with* TOT*. As you are having *TOT*, Could it be possible to use *Spectra* And *Sead* in the *LCA* or Is there any agreement with France which prohibits you to do this?. Thanks


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## Capt.Popeye

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I want to ask that India is getting Rafale with* TOT*. As you are having *TOT*, Could it be possible to use *Spectra* And Sead in the LCA or Is there any agreement with France which prohibits you to do this?. Thanks


 

Right now hard to say since the specifics of the agreement are unknown. And most of it will be unknown. However the French are (and have been) very comprehensive in TOT arrangements, so such arrangements are a possibility.


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## satishkumarcsc

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I want to ask that India is getting Rafale with* TOT*. As you are having *TOT*, Could it be possible to use *Spectra* And *Sead* in the *LCA* or Is there any agreement with France which prohibits you to do this?. Thanks


 
No LCA has Mayawi ECM suite and it dosent have the power for something like SPECTRA onboard.


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## sancho

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I want to ask that India is getting Rafale with* TOT*. As you are having *TOT*, Could it be possible to use *Spectra* And *Sead* in the *LCA* or Is there any agreement with France which prohibits you to do this?. Thanks


 
Rafale deal is just under negotiations, so ammount of ToT, what ToT and with what kind of restrictions still needs to be negotiated yet. The most likely techs that LCA MK2 could get from Rafale are AESA, engine and IRST techs, while SPECTRA is not just a single part and contains many different sensors and features.
SEAD capability is not dependent on SPECTRA, with the required avionics and Kh 31 for example, LCA could do SEAD as well, although I expect MKI and Rafale to be used in this role mainly.



satishkumarcsc said:


> No LCA has Mayawi ECM suite


 
Which is still a myth, there are only very old infos about such a systems. When you look at more recent news reports or official infos we often see EW systems and sensors from DARE, while nothing hints on Mayavi or any Israeli parts.


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## Black Widow

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/164829-indian-ferrari-over-hal-airport.html#post2688401

Indian Ferrari over HAL Airport | idrw.org

If you order a Ferrari 458 Italia today, youll have to wait up to one year to take delivery of your precious Italian stallion. But Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based in Bangalore, is also Developing something similar at its complex.

No we are not talking about any high end Auto Car, nor any currently been developed by HAL. But we are talking about Indigenous developed Light combat Aircraft (LCA). HAL time frame for delivery of Tejas airframes is very close to Ferraris Waiting list, while Ferraris Customers are glad to wait for their car to arrive but its not the same with Indian air force.

How slow is the production? , well HAL was not able to deliver even a single aircraft for the whole year in 2011 , even with LSP-7 took its first flight in march this year , sources close to idrw.org have informed that LSP-8 will only be ready close to end of this year .

In 2003 IAF had ordered 8 Limited serial production (LSP) aircrafts and new GE engines were delivered by 2006, but first LSP-1 took off only in 2007 with older engines and even after 6 years, HAL has only delivered 6 Airframes (LSP-1/2/3/4/5/7).

Even after Indian air force placed orders for 20 aircrafts in 2005, first Serial Production (SP)-1aircrafts will be handed over to IAF only in 2013.slow rate of production has been often been criticised by Indian air force.

As per sources Problem lies with lack of proper supply chain in manufacturing and many critical components are still been produced under labs rather than production house .since HAL has not been able to start full scale production yet .

HAL few years back even with funds allocated, took its own sweet time to built production facility, which took them more then 2 years basically doing nothing. And even the current production facility is underutilised, since HAL has not been able to recruit enough manpower nor able to develop manufacturing equipments.

At current rate of production HAL will only be able to deliver all 40 Tejas MK-1 only in 2019, last year HAL and ADA had faced Fuel leak issues with LSP aircrafts, which took more 6 months to fix the issues, gradually current LSP aircrafts will be pulled out of Test flights to Fix this issues, since changes has been carried out only in LSP-7 aircraft. Test flights has already hit by delays in carrying out Tier-2 Weapons trials.

ADA is already focussing on Tejas MK-2 now and hopes to have its first flight by 2016 and enter its production by 2019, we can only hope that Tejas MK-2 does face any major issues with its design or structure, which might delay it further.

*this is the proper section for it ..: *

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ter-unlikely-before-2014-a-2.html#post2688403

Battle-ready Tejas fighter unlikely before 2014
Business Line : Companies News : Battle-ready Tejas fighter unlikely before 2014

The battle-ready version of the country's fighter plane, Tejas, may not emerge before late 2013 or 2014 going by its present pace.

On Friday evening, defence scientists in Bangalore flew yet another improved version of the aircraft to test many indigenously-developed instruments. They reported its 18-minute performance as satisfactory'.

Evidently, much work remains before the fighter matches the Indian Air Force's requirement.

Tejas, when fully flight-ready, is tipped to be the world's lightest. Its story has been snagged by delays, including the US sanctions. An official closely associated with Tejas's progress said LSP-8, the next tweaked version, would not be ready until later this year.

LSP-8 would be the version presented for final certification of CEMILAC, the approving body for fighter aircraft, the official told Business Line. The FOC (final operational or flight clearance) and the green flag to produce them could come in late 2013 or beyond.
Development saga

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been making all the early pieces of the light combat aircraft (LCA). The defence PSU has an order for the first 40 planes from the IAF. Before that, Tejas must meet all the standards that make it safe and reliable in a war.

In January 2011, Tejas got the initial operational clearance (IOC) with some concessions on milestones. It had not yet met a few yardsticks for the IOC, which allows those outside the lab'  IAF pilots in this case  to try out the plane.

The Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, has described it as the semi-final' stage in its 25-year, Rs 12,500-crore development saga.

In the coming years, the IAF is expected to need over 200 Tejas fighters to replace the MiGs. The Navy is tipped to seek 40 customised variants and has already funded the early variants. The IAF has placed an order with HAL to deliver two batches of 20 aircraft each. One order for Rs 4,000 crore is for Mark I. The other is for a higher-powered Mark II fitted with GE-F404 engines

HAL has said it can bring out ten LCAs a year  or the full complement of 40 around 2018.

The DRDO's nodal body, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), is developing the LCA for the IAF.

DRDO said Friday's flight, piloted by Group Captain K. K. Venugopal, tested the multi-mode radar, the helmet mounted display system, the auto-pilot and the instrument landing system.

This test flight is significant for the programme, as LSP-7 build standard is close to the IOC standard. Accordingly LSP-7 aircraft, along with LSP-8, will be offered to the IAF for user evaluation trials, DRDO said in a release.

A production test schedule was used for the first time in an early version.

This is also the first time the maiden flight of a prototype was not accompanied by the customary chase' (companion) aircraft. It indicated the level of confidence in the plane, DRDO claimed.

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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1795 Test Flights successfully. (09-Mar-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-215,PV3-334,LSP1-69,LSP2-200,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-68,LSP7-1)

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1795 Test Flights successfully. (09-Mar-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-215,PV3-334,LSP1-69,LSP2-200,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-68,LSP7-1)




Just for newcomers 


Technology Demonstrators (TD)
TD-1 (KH2001) - 4 Jan 2001
TD-2 (KH2002) - 6 June 2002

Prototype Vehicles (PV)
PV-1 (KH2003) - 25 November 2003
PV-2 (KH2004) - 1 December 2005
PV-3 (KH2005) - 1 December 2006 - This is the production variant.
PV-4 - Originally planned to be a Naval variant for carrier operations, but now a second production variant.
PV-5 (KH-T2009) - 26 November 2009 - Fighter/Trainer Variant

Naval Prototypes (NP)
NP-1 - Two-seat Naval variant for carrier operations. Rolled out in July 2010.[76] It was supposed to make first flight by mid July 2011.
NP-2 - Single-seat Naval variant for carrier operations.

Currently, 8 LSP series aircraft plus 40 aircraft are on order.
LSP-1 (KH2011) - 25 April 2007. This LCA is powered by F404-F2J3 Engine.
LSP-2 (KH2012) - 16 June 2008. This is the first LCA fitted with F404-IN20 engine.
LSP-3 23 April 2010. The first aircraft to have the *Hybrid MMR radar* and will be close to the IOC standard.
LSP-4 (KH2014) - 2 June 2010 The first aircraft that was flown in the configuration that will be delivered to the Indian Air Force.[44] In addition to the Hybrid MMR, the aircraft flew with a Countermeasure Dispensing System and an identify friend or foe electronic system
LSP-5 (KH2015) - 19 November 2010 IOC standard with all sensor including night lighting in the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.
LSP-6 - *Will be used to increase the Angle of Attack.* As well as develop better (Experimental) *RAM coating *to further reduce its radar signature.
LSP-7 (KH2017) - 09 March 2012.* APU intake *has been aerodynamically reshaped.
LSP-8 - Will be soon given to IAF for user trials. LSP-8 was supposed to fly in 2011.
SP-1 to SP-40 - Planned to fly by late 2013. The SP-1 and SP-2 will be delivered by March 2012 and handed over to No.45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) that will be based initially in Bangalore, Karnataka.

Look like LSP 6 will be using GE414 engine..

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Look like LSP 6 will be using GE414 engine..



No, that's still the MK1 with a new FCS to increase the AoA as reported in recent news. But the part of the RAM coating is very interesting, what's the source?


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> No, that's still the MK1 with a new FCS to increase the AoA as reported in recent news. But the part of the RAM coating is very interesting, what's the source?



Its just wiki. I am not sure how correct it is.. Sancho can you tell me what is this APU intake?


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## rockstarIN

^^Ya there is a news that the intakes has slightly redesigned?


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## Capt.Popeye

Black Widow said:


> Its just wiki. I am not sure how correct it is.. Sancho can you tell me what is this APU intake?



APU intake is at the root of the vertical stabiliser.


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> ^^Ya there is a news that the intakes has slightly redesigned?



Not only news, You can see the difference, Just see the tail section of LSP7, It has closed APU intake , where as other LCA has open. You can see the APU intake on the back of LCA, just where the tail starts... 

*I got some info on this topic :*

*APU Airborne Auxiliary Power &#8211; Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) Air Intake. Duct*












For the majority of aircraft with APU's air is used to start the main engines. This air can come from either the bleed air section of the APU (just downstream of the compressor) or from a load compressor attached to the front of the APU.

Either Bleed Air or LC air is sent to the main engine and used to turn an Air Turbine Starter. Not direct injection to the turbine section. The ATS acts like any other starter, it drives a geartrain to spool up the main engine.

The other type of APU uses a generator to supply electricity for Main engine start.l In this case the starter is an accessory drive motor/generator that spools up the main to start and then generates power after reaching N1 light off.

More modern engines are becoming only electric machines. These APU's and Main engine TRU (transformer rectifier units) produce 400 hz ac power so that smaller conductors are routed throughout the AC instead of insulated Stainless ducts. (which are bloody heavy)

The A380 APU now sports 2each 750 kw generators AND load compressor. 



*LCA with APU intake*






In this pic, you can see 4 LCAs, the middle of the bottom three has not APU.

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1796 Test Flights successfully. (12-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-215,PV3-334,LSP1-69,LSP2-200,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,*LSP5-69*,LSP7-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1795 Test Flights successfully. (09-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-215,PV3-334,LSP1-69,LSP2-200,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-68,LSP7-1)

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## sathya

How does CLOSED APU intake works ?


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## Black Widow

sathya said:


> How does CLOSED APU intake works ?




I don't think the closed APU has any role to play. May be HAL didn't want the APU now. If you can see the pic above, earlier LCA doesn't come with APU.

The LSP 3,4,5,6 comes with APU, I think the frame was already made, when HAL decided not to keep APU they simply closed the intake.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Its just wiki. I am not sure how correct it is.. Sancho can you tell me what is this APU intake?



Besides what you already have found out:

AIRBORNE AUXILIARY POWER UNITS (APU)


Btw, this is not an APU, because it's a part at the external fuel tank, so not related to the engines:







Black Widow said:


> I don't think the closed APU has any role to play. May be HAL didn't want the APU now. If you can see the pic above, earlier LCA doesn't come with APU.



If they didn't wanted the APU anymore, they simply could have deleted it during the production, which reduces some weight and drag, but since they kept it, it looks more like they want to open it if necessary. During flight and when the engine is on, auxiliary power is not needed so the intake can be closed. On the ground and during maintenance, it could be opened again.


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## sancho

Let me quote myself here:



sancho said:


> Interesting, also this part (green marking) seems to be different too









From BR:






So it's seems to be provisions to integrate the spin chute for the high AoA tests of the LSP 6, comparable to these:


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## nomi007

why India is not taking Israeli assistance for tejas?


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## manofwar

nomi007 said:


> why India is not taking Israeli assistance for tejas?


It is supposed to be an indigenious effort, not a JV....
The CAG will go nuts if HAL tried any such thing because too much money has already been invested
for an *indigenious* fighter


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## sancho

nomi007 said:


> why India is not taking Israeli assistance for tejas?



Israelis are partners in the radar development, possibly some parts of avionics too, but EADS was chosen to fix some of the problems with regard of the airframe.


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## sancho

TEJAS LSP - 7

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## rockstarIN

Its is really a small light combat air craft...even smaller than Mig-21s


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## sudhir007

LSP-7

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## Black Widow

nomi007 said:


> why India is not taking Israeli assistance for tejas?



Good question. First of all India was not pro israel till 2000 

Indo-Israel relation: India was pro Palestine for 5 decades after independence. It was Bajpai-Jacob-Jaswant who shifted the trend. Our enemy was same (Terrorists) so our alliance was obvious. 

When LCA project was initiated (1993) We had no relation with Israel. We took assistance from USA for FBW (our engineers were working at LM). After Pokhran II the Americans kick us out of there laboratory  and they took all of our work. We started from scracth in India. Similarly our ejection seat was from martine becker (British), we made our own ejection seat and get certified by Martine Becker.

Though LCA is indigenous, we take help from french (on design) and Israeli (on avionics and Electronic equipment).


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## LiberalAtheist

rockstar said:


> Its is really a small light combat air craft...even smaller than Mig-21s



which is what they were built for small aircraft like Tejas are supposed to be small agile and fast interceptors with a swing role capability to drop LGB's and PGM's Tejas could be used for CAS but its not designed as a long range fighter besides we will have PAK FA, MKI, and MiG-29 to do that Mirage Rafale and Jaguar is for strike and ground attack LCA will just be used for fighter escort and patrols it makes a good and cheap interceptor i even think the LCA MK2 will have good export capability being cheaper but capable enough to get the job done. light fighters in large numbers have always been used especially in defense of the country's airspace the earliest example of this was the Luftwaffe air campaign in Britain during WW2. the smaller lighter and more agile british fighters brought down the nazi heavy fighters and bombers even in the Indo-Pak wars the Folland Gnat has the reputation of being a "sabre slayer" because it was so light and agile it defeated its heavier enemies.


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## deckingraj

Black Widow said:


> Good question. *First of all India was not pro israel till 2000*
> 
> Indo-Israel relation: India was pro Palestine for 5 decades after independence. It was Bajpai-Jacob-Jaswant who shifted the trend. Our enemy was same (Terrorists) so our alliance was obvious.
> 
> *When LCA project was initiated (1993) We had no relation with Israel*. We took assistance from USA for FBW (our engineers were working at LM). After Pokhran II the Americans kick us out of there laboratory  and they took all of our work. We started from scracth in India. Similarly our ejection seat was from martine becker (British), we made our own ejection seat and get certified by Martine Becker.
> 
> Though LCA is indigenous, we take help from french (on design) and Israeli (on avionics and Electronic equipment).



Bolded parts are factually wrong...First our relations with Israel started in 91...That is the time when we started our diplomatic relations with them...Relations with israel were very good even prior ot 2000 and in fact they provide the much needed help in form of LGB during kargil(1999)...

Now as far as why they were not involved - You are partially right...In 1993 we were just cozying up with them...So it is but obvious that including them was not feasible at that time...Secondly it was not a JV anyways and we wanted to built everything on our own....


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## Black Widow

deckingraj said:


> Bolded parts are factually wrong...First our relations with Israel started in 91...That is the time when we started our diplomatic relations with them...Relations with israel were very good even prior ot 2000 and in fact they provide the much needed help in form of LGB during kargil(1999)...
> 
> Now as far as why they were not involved - You are partially right...In 1993 we were just cozying up with them...So it is but obvious that including them was not feasible at that time...Secondly it was not a JV anyways and we wanted to built everything on our own....




Thanks for correcting me. I goofed up the timeline..


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## RPK

Development of Tejas LCA
The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-1) for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has been achieve on 10th January, 2011. Presently, LCA development activities leading to final operational clearance are in progress. Action for induction of Tejas into IAF has been initiated. IAF has placed orders for 40 aircraft on HAL.

Tejas Mark-I is planned at present for 40 aircraft only. Tejas Mark-II aircraft is under development with an alternate higher powered engine with considerable improvements. Final cost assessment will be available only after the development phase of Mark II is completed. Scope for cost reduction of Tejas Mk-I has been examined and the same is assessed as not feasible in view of limited quantities. 

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the nodal organization for the development of Tejas. 

Rs.11845.20 Crores have been sanctioned by the government of India to ADA for the development of Tejas till date and the total expenditure incurred so far is Rs.5051.46 Crores. 

IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan. 

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRajuin a written reply to Shri Tarun Vijay in Rajya Sabha today. 

HH/NN 
(Release ID :80909)


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## ganimi kawa

Black Widow said:


> *Though LCA is indigenous, we take help from french (on design) *and Israeli (on avionics and Electronic equipment).




Can you provide me a link to verify the bolded part?

AFAIK, Dassault was approached for help with FBW, but the deal did not go through!

That french helped in LCA design is one of the biggest myths; I feel!


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> That french helped in LCA design is one of the biggest myths; I feel!



Some say they were consulted during the design stage, but it's hard to say if that is true, or if it's just another myth based on the so called similarity to Mirage 2000. 
Fact is EADS was consulted in the later stage for some changes to fix problems, but I can't tell for which exactly, although it might be sure that "some" French could have been involved there, since EADS is partialy French.


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## karan21

sancho said:


> Some say they were consulted during the design stage, but it's hard to say if that is true, or if it's just another myth based on the so called similarity to Mirage 2000.
> Fact is EADS was consulted in the later stage for some changes to fix problems, but I can't tell for which exactly, although it might be sure that "some" French could have been involved there, since EADS is partialy French.



even if we took help then whats the problem i dont understand. what ever we took help in we have mastered it ourselves by now. designing a plane now is not the problem for us. amca's design is already done and close to final design is shown this year at defence expo. we will see it in a few days. there is no similarity in mirage and tejas. both planes have different airframe and wing design. lca's air intakes are present under the wing while mirage has it above the wing in the front.


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## sancho

karan21 said:


> even if we took help then whats the problem i dont understand.



I don't have a problem with it, I am even for more co-developments or JVs and I am known as a LCA hater, because I said it would have been better to co-develop it's radar and engine from the start. 
But the fact is, LCA as a project and by design is an Indian development, we only made big mistakes in the planning of the development and were blinded by our pride. Otherwise it is a good 4th gen fighter, with enough future potential to be our low end for the next 2 or 3 decades.


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## BoB's



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## sudhir007

IAF set to induct 6 LCA squadrons | idrw.org

First two Tejas aircraft will be stationed in TN
Giving a big thrust to the indigenous fighter jet programme, Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to induct six squadrons of Tejas light combat aircraft over the next 10 years, which will allow the IAF to pack more punch in its aerial strikes.

IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan, minister of state for defence M M Pallam Raju said in the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

The development phase for LCA (light combat force) began in 1983 and the first technology demonstrator flew in 2001. Four years later, IAF placed the first order of 20 Tejas at a cost of Rs 2,700 crore. Subsequently, it placed order for another squadron.

The first two squadrons  40 aircraft  of LCA, are first generation Mark-I version. The additional four squadrons would be Tejas Mark-II aircraft with a higher powered engine.

Raju indicated that money would not come in the way of LCA development. The Centre sanctioned Rs 11,845.2 crore to Aeronautical development Agency (ADA) till date while the total expenditure incurred so far is Rs 5,051.46 crore, he said.

Only last week, the penultimate developmental aircraft Tejas limited series production  7 (LSP-7) successfully undertook its maiden flight from HAL airport. The LSP-7 aircraft, along with LSP- 8 will be offered to the IAF for user evaluation trials.

The LSP-7 flight is also the first time that a LCA maiden flight was not accompanied by the customary chase aircraft, which is an indicator to the level of confidence defence scientists and IAF have in the machine, defence research and development organisation stated. IAF plans to station the first two LCA squadron at Sulur near Coimbatore and Kayathir near Tuticorin.


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## sudhir007

Development of Tejas LCA | idrw.org

The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-1) for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has been achieve on 10th January, 2011. Presently, LCA development activities leading to final operational clearance are in progress. Action for induction of Tejas into IAF has been initiated. IAF has placed orders for 40 aircraft on HAL.

Tejas Mark-I is planned at present for 40 aircraft only. Tejas Mark-II aircraft is under development with an alternate higher powered engine with considerable improvements. Final cost assessment will be available only after the development phase of Mark II is completed. Scope for cost reduction of Tejas Mk-I has been examined and the same is assessed as not feasible in view of limited quantities.

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the nodal organization for the development of Tejas.

Rs.11845.20 Crores have been sanctioned by the government of India to ADA for the development of Tejas till date and the total expenditure incurred so far is Rs.5051.46 Crores.

IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRajuin a written reply to Shri Tarun Vijay in Rajya Sabha today.


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> I don't have a problem with it, I am even for more co-developments or JVs and I am known as a LCA hater, because I said it would have been better to co-develop it's radar and engine from the start.
> But the fact is, LCA as a project and by design is an Indian development, we only made big mistakes in the planning of the development and were blinded by our pride. Otherwise it is a good 4th gen fighter, with enough future potential to be our low end for the next 2 or 3 decades.



No you are known as biggest LCA troll.... Just kidding.

I agree with you, Indian govt must have shown some foresight in LCA program. As you already mentioned, the indigenous engine was suicidal idea. When in world, country test there prototypes with proven engine, Indian thinkers tried to do it with new engine.

Any way its late, but not end of the world. I am hopeful that LCA will prove its worth (as a point defense fighter).


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## Black Widow

ganimi kawa said:


> Can you provide me a link to verify the bolded part?
> AFAIK, Dassault was approached for help with FBW, but the deal did not go through!
> That french helped in LCA design is one of the biggest myths; I feel!



I don't have data now, when come I will present it to you.
@karan : There is no problem, technical assistance is part of any development.


@ganimi kawa : do you know CEMILAC (certification agency for airworthiness) has rejected to give certificate for LCA NP1? So the HAL is going to take some assistance from Dassault to rectify the landing gear issue. (I read it in some blog), hope senior members know it.


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> No you are known as biggest LCA troll.... Just kidding.
> 
> I agree with you, Indian govt must have shown some foresight in LCA program. As you already mentioned, the indigenous engine was suicidal idea. When in world, country test there prototypes with proven engine, Indian thinkers tried to do it with new engine.
> 
> Any way its late, but not end of the world. I am hopeful that LCA will prove its worth (as a point defense fighter).



It was not foolish to go for a new engine as y'day or today or even tomorrow we will have to go for it. Engine tech is very crucial. But there should have been a provision that if any of the related development fails/or take time...there are alternatives to fill the gap.

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## sms

rockstar said:


> It was not foolish to go for a new engine as y'day or today or even tomorrow we will have to go for it. Engine tech is very crucial. But there should have been a provision that if any of the related development fails/or take time...there are alternatives to fill the gap.



No there was problem on project management and project plan itself. They planned to qualify a fighter plane along with unqualified engine. That has added too many variable for the project and it was a recipe for failure. 

They should have planned to qualify the Tejas with proven engine followed by Kaveri induction once LCA has rectified most of design flaws so that they had to work only on engine/ airframe integration issue ONLY.

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> It was not foolish to go for a new engine as y'day or today or even tomorrow we will have to go for it. Engine tech is very crucial. But there should have been a provision that if any of the related development fails/or take time...there are alternatives to fill the gap.



I don know what you are saying? Not able to understand ur post.


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## rockstarIN

Im talking about the Kaveri engine for LCA


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Im talking about the Kaveri engine for LCA



What i got from your previous post that, "It was not a bad move to go for Kaveri engine, coz at some point of time we need Indian engine", Assuming I have read it correctly, I partially Agree and partially disagree with your comment.

The Idea to have Indian engine, radar is undoubtedly holy. But practicality should be kept in mind. Lets go little back..

Why Kaveri needed. 

the Marut,HAL completed design studies in 1975, but the project fell through due to inability to procure the selected "proven engine" from a foreign manufacturer and the IAF's requirement for an air superiority fighter with secondary air support and interdiction capability remained unfulfilled.

Why LCA was needed: 

n 1983 IAF realized the need of an indigenous combat aircraft for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing MiG-21 fighters. The MiG-21 has been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s. The "Long Term Re-Equipment Plan 1981" noted that the MiG-21s would be approaching the end of their service lives by the mid-1990s, and that by 1995 the IAF would lack 40% of the aircraft needed to fill its projected force structure requirements.


What was done: 
The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include indigenous development of the three most sophisticated &#8212; and hence most challenging &#8212; systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine.

What would have been done : 
1. primary focus on FBW, FCS and air frame design.
2. First prototypes would have been run on Foreign engine (AL31, GE, tumansky or Honeywell)
These two step would have guaranteed replacement of ageing MiG21. The Kavery and MMR radar project would have been separate project, which would have been added to LCA after/before induction .

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## rockstarIN

Anyways we ran our first engines with foreign GE only. Although had I love having AL31 high thrust engine for LCA even though it is Russian.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> It was not foolish to go for a new engine as y'day or today or even tomorrow we will have to go for it. Engine tech is very crucial. But there should have been a provision that if any of the related development fails/or take time...there are alternatives to fill the gap.



Of course we needed to develop an own engine at some point, but the mistake was to make LCA dependent on this new engine as well! If we had used a proven foreign engine from the start, like the Chinese are doing it with JF17 or J10 and Russian engines, or like Dassault had done it with US engines on Rafale, LCA would be operational today! We could have developed Kaveri without any pressure and could have added it into LCAs production line, when the engine is ready and mature enough. The same is the case with the radar development, important, but wrongly planned!

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## brational

No news on LCA now a days. We are already into 2012, any news on Induction?


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## rockstarIN

sms said:


> No there was problem on project management and project plan itself. They planned to qualify a fighter plane along with unqualified engine. That has added too many variable for the project and it was a recipe for failure.
> 
> They should have planned to qualify the Tejas with proven engine followed by Kaveri induction once LCA has rectified most of design flaws so that they had to work only on engine/ airframe integration issue ONLY.



At the planning stage of LCA, you are not sure of west will give you engines. Thats the lession from HF-24. Russian engines are possibkle though that time


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## Capt.Popeye

rockstar said:


> At the planning stage of LCA, you are not sure of west will give you engines. Thats the lession from HF-24. Russian engines are possibkle though that time



Russian engines were not a 'first choice' for those projects.................


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## Black Widow

brational said:


> No news on LCA now a days. We are already into 2012, any news on Induction?




Why you were on Hibernation for decade or what? read the posts in this thread, you will get the update,,,

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## manofwar

^^ no matter how you feel,Dont abuse dude


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## prime2012

*Giving a big thrust to the indigenous fighter jet programme, Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to induct six squadrons of Tejas light combat aircraft over the next 10 years, which will allow the IAF to pack more punch in its aerial strikes.*

IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan, minister of state for defence M M Pallam Raju said in the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

The development phase for LCA (light combat force) began in 1983 and the first technology demonstrator flew in 2001. Four years later, IAF placed the first order of 20 Tejas at a cost of Rs 2,700 crore. Subsequently, it placed order for another squadron.

The first two squadrons  40 aircraft  of LCA, are first generation Mark-I version. The additional four squadrons would be Tejas Mark-II aircraft with a higher powered engine.

Raju indicated that money would not come in the way of LCA development. The Centre sanctioned Rs 11,845.2 crore to Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) till date while the total expenditure incurred so far is Rs 5,051.46 crore, he said.

Only last week, the penultimate developmental aircraft Tejas limited series production - 7 (LSP-7) successfully undertook its maiden flight from HAL airport. The LSP-7 aircraft, along with LSP- 8 will be offered to the IAF for user evaluation trials.

The LSP-7 flight is also the first time that a LCA maiden flight was not accompanied by the customary chase aircraft, which is an indicator to the level of confidence defence scientists and IAF have in the machine, defence research and development organisation stated.


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## prime2012

Tejas Limited Series Production - 7 (LSP-7) aircraft took-off for its maiden flight from HAL airport at 4:27 pm on 9th March 2012. This test flight is significant for the program, as LSP -7 build-standard is close to the initial operational clearance (IOC) standard. Accordingly LSP -7 aircraft, along with LSP - 8 will be offered to the Indian Air Force for user evaluation trials (UET). The flight was also significant considering the fact that for the first time &#8220;Production Test Schedule&#8221; was used for the first flight of an LSP aircraft in this program. This is also the first time that maiden flight of the aircraft was not accompanied by the customary &#8216;chase&#8217; aircraft, which is an indicator to the level of confidence in the machine. The flight lasted 28 minutes with Gp Capt KK Venugopal at the controls in the cockpit and Wg Cdr Kabadwal of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) as Test Director in the telemetry. During the test flight, performance of the aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar (MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and Instrument Landing System (ILS) was satisfactory, providing a moment of pride for all the stake holders which include ADA, HAL, IAF, CEMILAC, DG AQA, ADE and NAL among others.


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## AADHAAR

rockstar said:


> Anyways we ran our first engines with foreign GE only. Although had I love having AL31 high thrust engine for LCA even though it is Russian.



But we have to keep in mind russian engines are much inferior to the western ones:

1. They have a much higher maintenance cost.
2. Significantly lower hours of operation before they need to be overhauled.

Only performance wise (in terms of thrust and weight) they are comparable.

This explains the high availability and turn around of Mirage-2000s as compared to the Su-30MKI (which use russian engines).

Btw.. India already makes AL-31 engines under licence for all the indigenously manufactured Su-30MKIs.

Kaveri engine is closer to western engines, in terms of maintenance requirements and health monitoring (e.g. it has it's own FADEC). Once matured the Kaveri should (and is intended to) replace GE-404 engines on the first 40 LCA.

GE414 engines which will actually be used in LCA Mk-2, were evolved from the GE-404. We need to first reach the GE-404 level with Kaveri and then plan for a GE414 level engine.


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## Black Widow

17th march 2011: 11:10 am (minutes before I am posting this thread) LCA (not LSP 7) take off from HAL airport. It was fully loaded (Drop tank, missiles and LGBs), I saw the take-off. It was awesome. 

I usually see unarmed LCA flying (often), today first time I saw it fully loaded. 


Look like LCA was on tour to Delhi.


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## prime2012

Thats something for us to cherish.

Eventhough it was a bit too late, seems we'v got a fighter of our own in the latest configuration.
HAL initially planned to make Tejas - a 4th gen fighter but according to recent news global experts place the jet under 4.5 gen category as it offers certain degree of stealth due to carbon fibre composites.
Either way it's a win-win situation as of now since the government has already placed the order for the Airforce & the Naval variant. And 1ce the Kaveri engine is ready we can call it completely indigenous.
Sure, it is a disappointment for a few but hey... this is the fact and face it people....!!!

Bravo!! Cheers evry1

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## zootinali

@mafiya
hmmmm ... Well depends on how fast we could replace foreign parts from mk2, American engine would definetly hamper the export dream, but considering how many we are inducting it , it wil definetly generate some interest in countries in need of mutirole light fighters, atleast worthy of evaluation , who knows what future holds for LCA , we certainely can`t stop now if we are to become powerful nation
that is probably what he meant by "potential"..

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## Water Car Engineer

> Dr. Kota Harinarayana has worked with organizations like HAL and DRDO and has been the driving force behind developing India&#8217;s light combat aircraft Tejas. It was his discipline, aptitude for systems design and ability to bring together and manage so many different organizations that helped spur the Tejas program. He has served as Chief Designer at HAL Nasik division, as Director ADE, Bangalore, and as the LCA Programme Director at ADA in a career spanning several decades until he retired in 2002. He was also awarded the Padma Shri by the Government of India in the same year. He presently occupies the &#8220;DS Kothari DRDO Chair-ADA&#8221; in an advisory role to the Tejas program. Here we talk to this legend to get a first-hand account of the man who has seen the Tejas take flight from the drawing board into the skies.



*What was your childhood like?*

I come from a town in Orissa called Behrampur. It&#8217;s a small place where people are close to each other. I come from a generation where children didn&#8217;t go to a school too early. I started going to school only at the age of seven. Now days, children start as early as three. When I turned seven, my parents were getting worried that this fellow is not going to school. So there was a teacher who used to come home and take us physically to the school. But once I started attending school, I picked up fast. Maybe if you&#8217;re a little older in school, you pick up faster. I joined a school called City High School. The school had a provision for studying both Telugu and Oriya. And we were studying Hindi as an additional subject.
I come from a lower middle class family. I was supposed to be a reasonably good student in school. I usually came first or second in the class. For my parents, as long as I was going to school and not failing, they were happy. I got a seat in both engineering and medicine after school. I somehow felt that engineering was better because I liked mathematics and I wasn&#8217;t sure if I could remember all the names in anatomy or physiology. So, I decided to do engineering. I applied to a college in Orissa and to Benares Hindu University (BHU). My father felt that perhaps by going to Benaras, my exposure and outlook would be better and he sent me to BHU. I must admire that because he wasn&#8217;t a highly literate man. He must have studied up to sixth or seventh standard. But he was a freedom fighter and he was very passionate about Indian value systems. He thought that BHU which was established by Madan Mohan Malviya was a university with values. He thought by going there, I could pick up some good virtues.

*Did you have a fascination for flying in your childhood days?*

My fascination for aviation began in 1965 when I passed out from BHU and that was the year we had a war. It was the first time that India used aircraft in a war. There was a beautiful aircraft called Gnat. It was a small aircraft. And Gnat did extremely well in dog fights with F-86 &#8216;Sabre&#8217; aircrafts which were much bigger in size. I found that very fascinating. I always believed that the agility and the maneuverability which is a very important quality for a fighter aircraft could be achieved when you have a small aircraft. And Gnat was very small. I think the Gnat was a wonder! Even today when I think about aircraft design, my first thought goes to Gnat. What the Gnat designers did was to create a single component that could do multiple jobs. The landing gear door also acted like an air brake. When I see how cleverly the whole thing was done, I get inspired.
You could say that the interest in aviation started in fact only after the 1965 war. Until then, we only knew and had read little about aircraft. I felt that it&#8217;s an area that I must study. And fortunately for me, there was an advertisement for the Institute of Science talking about a Post Graduation in aeronautics. So I applied and in those days they had a different policy and they selected me without an interview. If they had called for an interview, possibly I would not have gone.

*You have studied at prestigious institutes like BHU, IISc and IIT Bombay. Would you like to talk about some experiences that stand out during your education?
*
As far as BHU is concerned, while I loved the university, the environment and the heritage; frankly I didn&#8217;t find the education style very good but IISc was totally different. Here was a total research environment and the studies were tough. I had a job offer from Bhilai Steel plant and I almost left my course to take it up but somehow I told myself that I should not leave IISc because I liked the subjects. Six months after I joined, I got attuned to the place; to the research environment; to understanding what is the latest that is happening anywhere in the world and attuned to a way of teaching which was not routine and mundane. I had a project called &#8216;Stability and control of an aircraft&#8217;. There was a professor called Seetaram Murty. He instilled a lot of interest in the subject and while doing the project, I developed a greater feel for the subject. A lot of my class mates were going to USA but I decided to stay back and join HAL. In fact, I joined HAL through campus recruitment.
Studying in IISc changed my outlook towards life. Let me narrate an instance &#8211; After I completed my studies at IISc, I joined the flight test group of HAL. Within two-three days of joining, my boss called me and said, &#8216;Look, we have a problem in the aircraft. The drag levels are very high. We introduced a modification called reheat system. Can you study and tell us whether the drag levels are high or if there is a thrust problem.&#8217; The training at IISc being what it is, we thought we could solve any problem. Sometimes I think it was just bravado, but that was the kind of feeling. He asked me if I could look into it and I said, &#8216;No problem sir. I can do this job.&#8217; Then he asked me how much time I needed. Mentally I calculated that I could finish in two days but I thought let me take a factor of safety and said I will take one week. He said, &#8216;Oh! You can do it in one week. Very good.&#8217; So I came back and sat in my chair and my immediate boss asked me, &#8216;Kota, What did the big boss tell you.&#8217; I told him about the problem he had indicated and I that I had told him I could do it one week. Then I thought maybe my immediate boss thinks that&#8217;s too long so I said, &#8216;But I can actually finish it in two days.&#8217; He told me with a smile, &#8216;Very nice. We have been struggling to solve this problem for the last four years.&#8217; What IISc had done was that it had given us a tremendous amount of confidence to solve problems. I thought it was an extraordinary change for a person who was not even sure of how he could attend an interview to a person who could now say that &#8216;These are not major issues. We can solve it&#8217;.

*While serving as the Chief Resident Engineer(CRE) at HAL Nasik, your work on the life determination of MiG components helped spearhead improvements in MiG aircraft. How did this experience help you with the Tejas program?*

HAL Nasik had a factory for manufacturing MiG aircraft and I came with a fresh mind. I worked there for a couple of years and then I decided to do a PhD because my interest in aircraft had increased while working on MiG aircraft. I think its one of the finest aircraft designs ever made by Russians. When I first saw the MiG aircraft, I thought that a lot of improvements could be done. It wasn&#8217;t my job to do any development because I was the man responsible for the safety and design standards of the aircraft. But I thought we might as well see what we could do in terms of improvement. There are two areas where I started doing work. One was how to increase the indigenous content of the aircraft. A lot of the parts of the aircraft were still being imported from Russia. I felt that we were not taking the benefit of the Indian industry. So we did a major exercise about what could be indigenized and finally the Government gave us about 150 crores. In those days that was big money. We launched and I can tell you almost from about 30-40% of indigenous content was pushed up to 80% over that period of time. Metallic materials, Composite materials, Components, Standard parts and a lot of things we were able to do with the industry and laboratories around Nasik, Pune and some in Banglore. What I found was that the talent and the skill-base that was available in our small-scale industries in India are extra-ordinary.
And the second thing I was trying to look into was how to improve the aircraft &#8211; how to improve its performance, how to reduce its weight, how to improve other parameters, etc. We had an outstanding pilot called Wing Commander Ashoka. I think, perhaps, he is the finest test pilot India has ever produced. Not only an extra-ordinary pilot but he also had extra-ordinary analytical thinking skills. A test pilot should not only be good in flying but he should be able to analyze every aspect of the aircraft. When Ashoka used to land, he used to tell us about all the snags and what his appreciation was. And I always found that the way he had analyzed was the right way to look at it. He and I had many discussions together and we suggested some improvements in aerodynamics, structure, general systems and avionics. We approached the Managing Director, Group Captain Chenna Keshu who was a very positive person and he said that it was a pretty good idea and suggested a two day seminar in Nasik. In the history of Nasik, that was the first time they were having a seminar on improving the MiG aircraft. Actually the whole thing was supposed to be presented by the Chief Designer. By sheer chance, the Chief Designer fell ill and the General Manager asked me to present it. It was very well accepted by Air Force and the scientific community.
Meanwhile I was also doing my PhD. I went to IIT Bombay, registered myself and stayed there. At that point, I thought to myself that I had already done some eight to nine years of work and I didn&#8217;t want to do it in any obtuse subject. I told myself that my interest is in fighter aircraft and I had always felt that the MiG aircraft was not designed for India. It was designed for Russia&#8217;s cold conditions. If you sit inside the cockpit of a MiG 21, it is like a hot furnace. We need cooling whereas they had a heater inside the cockpit because they were operating in Siberia where it is always cold. Russia had two climates cold and colder whereas we have hot and hotter. These were the kinds of things that we wanted to change. We also wanted to change the aerodynamics. We developed a concept called Vortex plate. We didn&#8217;t know at that time that we were the first in the world to develop something like this. NASA developed a similar concept only six years later. Even though we were in a remote place like Nasik but because of our closeness to IIT Bombay, we had a healthy way of working.
We didn&#8217;t have any flight test facility. So, we did about a dozen flights. Then the aircraft was shifted to ASTE here and they did about 60-70 flights. Air Marshal Rajkumar who worked with LCA, in those days was with ASTE. He did most of the evaluation of the aircraft and he gave a pretty good report about the improvements that we had done &#8211; some were good and some were not so good. But overall they felt that some improvements could be incorporated.
While trying to indigenize the production of parts, we came across a problem. We couldn&#8217;t get push buttons for the control sticks from the Russians because their supply chain was very poor. I went to an automobile switch manufacturer in Nasik. His name was Bachubhai Patel. We asked him to make the push button for us. He replied that he knew how to make buttons for cars but not for aircrafts. We convinced him to try. We told him that we wanted the push buttons in three months. After about two and half months, he gave me a call. He asked me to come over and have a look at it. He had made a very simple and innovative test facility. He had made the push button and he tested it for ten million cycles. He said, &#8216;I have tested it. It is working quite well. Now you have a look at it.&#8217; He had made about half a dozen buttons. I gave two buttons to my colleagues to run tests on them in the laboratory and to the design team to study the dimensions. I was amazed at Bachubhai Patel&#8217;s choice of materials and design. He got it right in the first time. He had designed it without a single failure. What people had struggled for three years and had been running after the Russians for, this old man who was already sixty five in those days, did it. When we started exploring we were even able to find rubber rings, split pins, metallic materials and a variety of things within Indian industries. We wanted some composite material work done that nobody had done in this country and very few people in the world had done. I talked to a professor in IIT Bombay and said these are the components and asked him to try working on it. He made a very important component called the Air brake. It was then that I realized the amazing strength of an academic institution. Working on MiG development and indigenization immensely helped me when I came to the LCA project. If I hadn&#8217;t worked all those years in Nasik, I don&#8217;t think I would have had the knowledge or the confidence to tackle a new fighter project.

*Your job at ADA as the Program Director saw you managing a number of people from different fields. Can you tell us about the challenges you faced in Techno management and how you overcame them?
*
The problem was that in those days, India didn&#8217;t have any developmental experience of fighter for almost two decades. The previous program had been HF24 which was developed by a team headed by Kurt Tank, who was a German designer. He brought a design team of about 15 with him. The HF24 flew in 1961. By 1985, two and a half decades had been over and there had been no new project. And by then, people who had worked on the project had retired. In a field like aviation, you have to continuously develop, continuously evolve new technologies, new processes and new designs. And our people had not been doing anything for almost two and a half decades. So the challenge was that we didn&#8217;t have any technology, we didn&#8217;t have enough people who had experience in making an aircraft and unfortunately the infrastructure was also very poor. Whatever infrastructure had been there was built during HF24 days and was in poor shape.
We had DRDO labs, National Aerospace laboratory, Air Force on one side and HAL on the other side. I didn&#8217;t see much of a rapport among them. There was no understanding between the people. Each was pulling in his own direction. So the challenge was not only in dealing with people from 40 disciplines but people from different organizations who were not seeing eye to eye, who did not have an understanding about what each other&#8217;s responsibility was. Our challenge was how to build infrastructure, how to update the knowledge base of the people, how to bring in technology and how to make an aircraft. That could only happen if we could bring all these people together.
I must tell you that when Dr.Arunachalam told Air Marshal Wollen who was the Chairman of HAL in those days that I should take over the project (and I was still in the rolls of HAL, I was not a DRDO man), Wollen said if you feel he can do the job then I am happy. I told Air Marshal Wollen that sending me alone is of no use, we have to create a team. He said you choose your team from HAL. I chose 230 people from HAL and said these many people will work. I also had about 30-40 people from NAL, some 15-20 people from DRDO. So, there were almost 300 people. I said that I need these people for the next twelve months to do project definition or system design of the aircraft. All credit must go to Air Marshal Wollen. He said yes. And in about one week&#8217;s time, he transferred all of them. And he said that all of them will report to me. It was not easy because a lot of people among them who had come from HAL were much older than me. They were ten-fifteen years older. You couldn&#8217;t deal with them in a traditional way. The only way you can deal with them is by energizing the team to think big and look for challenges. It took us almost two years to knit them into a single team. I think that was the biggest challenge. It was important to make each person realize the strength and the need of the other person because each had his own strengths.
Slowly everybody started aligning because they realized that the focus was on the aircraft and they were all professional people. There were a lot of new technologies, software, systems to develop. A stage was reached when the distinction between disciplines and organizations disappeared. The greatest contribution of the LCA project is that in a country like India where people say that two people cannot work together, we were 5000 engineers working with 300 industries, about 40 laboratories and 20 academic institutions. And we worked together successfully. And at a time when there were US sanctions and they were not willing to cooperate with us, this team made this aircraft. That was a great experience. Tough but great.

*What, in your opinion, is the significance of the Tejas program? Why do you think it is important for the country?
*
When we started the Tejas program, we had already built a first generation fighter, the HF24. Tejas is a fourth plus generation fighter. We bridged the gap between first and fourth in one single project. And more than 80% of the technology of the LCA was developed in the country. In the most difficult time when there were sanctions from USA, we developed the most crucial controllers, hardware, software, tested, validated and made it error proof and we flew the aircraft. The most important thing is that we developed a lot of technologies. And these technologies have been used not just in LCA but in IJT and Saras and many other projects. And the companies that worked for LCA, they started working for many other programs all over the country. Today if you see engineering service industry in India, I think a large number of people manning the industry have worked on the LCA project. Because they worked on LCA, they got good work afterwards.
I think the biggest thing is that we created the ecosystem for aviation in India. Earlier there was no ecosystem for aviation in India. There was HAL and nobody else. Now it is HAL, 500 industries, 40-50 laboratories, 20 academic institutions and it is a big network. It is no longer one or two people working or one DRDO lab working or NAL working. It is a network. I thought this ecosystem that we have created through LCA is a great thing and it has given extra-ordinary confidence to the people who have worked on the project and the people who felt that this cannot be done but now they feel that if they could do LCA, they can do many other things. Today when I talk to anybody in the world, I can see that the respect for the country has increased by leaps and bounds. The point they make is that if you do a project like LCA which has the highest percentage of composites, which is the smallest fighter in the world, and was under such difficult conditions, it means that the country has inherent strength. And that is what gives confidence today not only to the participants but to the customers also. They may crib but at the end of the day they feel that here is a group that can do the job. If I go to the private industry today with some detailed design work, they will do it. All the avionics equipment and the MMR, we developed ourselves and it has been done by small scale industry. Some 40-50 of them worked for us and today they are making components for the rest of the world.

*Can you describe in detail what was going through your mind on January 4, 2001 when the Technology Demonstrator of the Tejas was flown for the first time?
*
Frankly I had zero doubt in my mind about our ability to make this aircraft. The day I took over I didn&#8217;t see any reason to believe that it would not be a success. If somebody sitting in France, in UK or in Sweden can do it; then a country of one billion people with so much of talent can also do it. We just needed to put our act together. Of course, we had to do a lot of learning and the infrastructure was not there but I had zero doubt in my mind. I always thought that this is a doable project. It was a tough project but it was doable. When we started this program, maybe one in hundred people would have believed in us. As we went on and we were ready to fly, maybe fifty out of hundred began believing in us.
Wing Commander Kothiyal was our test pilot. He was a very professionally competent person. I know that he had never flown a prototype in his life. That too an unstable aircraft. So, I thought about how to give confidence to him. We did two or three things. One was to work on the control laws. We tested on a modified F16 aircraft in USA. One of the comments of the test pilot from the Pentagon was that the F16 flies better with LCA control laws. Even the aerodynamics of the aircraft was excellent. It gave a lot of confidence to our pilot. I never wanted to side step any testing. I felt that you must test until you give confidence to the airworthiness team and to the pilots. So the whole testing process went on for a year. The main thing in my mind was that here is an aircraft where the aerodynamics are good and the control laws are good. We must make it reliable. Reliable enough for it to fly very well. Of course when the aircraft flew, it was an extra-ordinary feeling. When the pilot came down, I asked him if there were any snags and he said &#8216;zero&#8217;. That is an extra-ordinary statement. It means we really perfected the aircraft to a level where there were no problems. It is very difficult to explain the kind of feeling that you have. It is like having a child. We were elated and happy that we could do this in spite of US sanctions and in spite of the report from one of the leading professional journals that said that India can never fly this aircraft because of US sanctions and lack of experience in making aircraft. And we were able to overcome such things. But we had a wonderful Defence Minister in George Fernandes. Hes a great Swadeshi man. One day we were working very late at night around 11 &#8216;o clock, testing the ground run of the aircraft. And suddenly some five-six cars came. It was the Defence Minister. He said, &#8216;As I was landing, I saw some activity going on. And I knew it must be your group.&#8217; Such a gesture on his part energized the team, the designers, the people who had built the aircraft and the people who were testing it. Dr.Kalam was our boss for a long time. He was also an extra-ordinary person. Fortunately, I have had very good bosses. All of my bosses have supported us fully. We went through extra-ordinary problems. There used to be negative publicity about the project every alternate day. They used to say that we had crossed the time limits and the budget. It was tough but then our focus was not on those reports but on how to make it work. Fortunately, the team believed in themselves. Even if others didn&#8217;t believe, it didn&#8217;t matter. I think our big achievement was in making the team believe in themselves.



Featured Interview - Dr. Kota Harinarayana

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## rockstarIN

> Wing Commander Kothiyal was our test pilot. He was a very professionally competent person. I know that he had never flown a prototype in his life. That too an unstable aircraft. So, I thought about how to give confidence to him. We did two or three things. One was to work on the control laws. We tested on a modified F16 aircraft in USA. One of the comments of the test pilot from the Pentagon was that the F16 flies better with LCA control laws. Even the aerodynamics of the aircraft was excellent. It gave a lot of confidence to our pilot.



This is cooll..!!!


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## Storm Force

MAFIYA current TEJAS mk1 will cost $35m each BUT has production increases this may fall to $30m 

MK2 will start at around $40m each


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## Agent_47

*Press Release - LSP - 7: First Flight: 09 March 2012*

The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, LSP-7 accomplished its maiden flight from HAL airport on 9th March 2012. This test flight is significant for the programme as LSP-7's build-standard is close to the initial operational clearance ( IOC) standard. LSP-7, along with LSP-8, will be offered to the Indian Air Force for user evaluation trials (UET). This is also the first time a maiden flight of a prototype was not accompanied by the customary 'chase' aircraft, an indicator to the level of confidence in the machine.
It was a moment of immense pride for the members of the Tejas team who reported satisfactory performance of aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar (MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and Instrument Landing System (ILS). It was the first time that the maiden flight of the aircraft was not accompanied by the customary 'chase' aircraft which is an indication of the rising levels of confidence in the performance of the aircraft. Another significant achievement includes the "Production Test Schedule" which was used for the first time on the maiden test flight of the LSP-7 aircraft.
The flight which lasted a total of 28 minutes had Gp Capt KK Venugopal at the controls in the cockpit and Wg Cdr Kabadwal of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) as Test Director in the telemetry room.






Tejas - Press Release - LSP - 7: First Flight: 09 Mar 2012


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## sancho

Sir LurkaLot said:


>



Interesting, but sadly no sign of self-criticism about the developments that failed, but since it's an interview for the Tejas site, that would have been surprising anyway.

However, this part shows why LCA was and is an important development for India:



> I think the biggest thing is that we created the ecosystem for aviation in India. Earlier there was no ecosystem for aviation in India. There was HAL and nobody else. Now it is HAL, 500 industries, 40-50 laboratories, 20 academic institutions and it is a big network. It is no longer one or two people working or one DRDO lab working or NAL working. It is a network.



It is the base for our aerospace industry, the base of knowledge and experience we slowly build in this area. That's why even if it is the low end fighter of IAF and even if it is delayed, it is most important to finish the project and not simply switch to the next one!
Finishing LCA MK2, getting it into operational service in numbers and reflecting about the things that went wrong during this development will get us a big step further, especially when we can learn and improve ourselfs at the same time via MMRCA offsets, ToT and the FGFA co-development too. 

1) Building the base - LCA
2) Understanding and integrating latest techs - MMRCA
3) Jointly developing next generation techs - FGFA

That's what we get when we use our indigenous strenght *besides* the advantages we get through our foreign relations!

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## SQ8

IndianArmy said:


> Where are the moderators?? Why is there a JF-17 flying inside LCA territory?? Is that allowed in a JF-17 thread???



Please dont forget that it is an LCA being allowed to fly in Pakistani airspace after our permission reserved for its sole use.

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## IndianArmy

Oscar said:


> Please dont forget that it is an LCA being allowed to fly in Pakistani airspace after our permission reserved for its sole use.



I for always thought this airspace and Moderators to be unbiased. Since you have updated it to me, Ill keep that in mind.


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## khatarnak gunda

sancho said:


> Interesting, but sadly no sign of self-criticism about the developments that failed, but since it's an interview for the Tejas site, that would have been surprising anyway.
> 
> However, this part shows why LCA was and is an important development for India:
> 
> 
> 
> It is the base for our aerospace industry, the base of knowledge and experience we slowly build in this area. That's why even if it is the low end fighter of IAF and even if it is delayed, it is most important to finish the project and not simply switch to the next one!
> Finishing LCA MK2, getting it into operational service in numbers and reflecting about the things that went wrong during this development will get us a big step further, especially when we can learn and improve ourselfs at the same time via MMRCA offsets, ToT and the FGFA co-development too.
> 
> 1) Building the base - LCA
> 2) Understanding and integrating latest techs - MMRCA
> 3) Jointly developing next generation techs - FGFA
> 
> That's what we get when we use our indigenous strenght *besides* the advantages we get through our foreign relations!


 
with all due respect dear sir,

i would like to add the following......

1) Building the base - LCA
2) Understanding and integrating latest techs - MMRCA
3) Jointly developing next generation techs - FGFA
4) Independently develop the High End / High Tech fighter - AMCA

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Please dont forget that it is an LCA being allowed to fly in Pakistani airspace after our permission reserved for its sole use.



ha ha, its like you have been invited to Farnborough Air show for an aerial performance and suddenly saying you can't scramble your jet..its an airspace violation if you fly and will be shot down.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> ha ha, its like you have been invited to Farnborough Air show for an aerial performance and *suddenly saying you can't scramble your jet..its an airspace violation if you fly and will be shot down.*



Oh no..
you may do all the pirouettes, loops.. weapons displays. and the like...after all.. you are our guest here.
But do pay the parking and apron fees.. and be respectful of your hosts.

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## sathya

Oscar said:


> Oh no..
> you may do all the pirouettes, loops.. weapons displays. and the like...after all.. you are our guest here.
> But do pay the parking and apron fees.. and be respectful of your hosts.


 
I think moderators are doing a fair job..

If i was in his position, i would be much worse ..


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Oh no..
> you may do all the pirouettes, loops.. weapons displays. and the like...after all.. you are our guest here.
> But do pay the parking and apron fees.. and be respectful of your hosts.



You can't ask parking fee to Airbus & Boeing in a business jet air show. Without them, whats the fun at all?



sathya said:


> I think moderators are doing a fair job..
> 
> If i was in his position, i would be much worse ..



I'm not disagreeing buddy

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## sathya

rockstar said:


> You can't ask parking fee to Airbus & Boeing in a business jet air show. Without them, whats the fun at all?



  



rockstar said:


> I'm not disagreeing buddy


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Oscar said:


> Please dont forget that it is an LCA being allowed to fly in Pakistani airspace after our permission reserved for its sole use.



Nah! Its like the foxbat mission in Pakistan a couple decades back when it overflew Pakistan but you had nothing to catch it with


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## sancho

khatarnak gunda said:


> with all due respect dear sir,
> 
> i would like to add the following......
> 
> 4) Independently develop the High End / High Tech fighter - AMCA



You can only do that, if the first 3 steps are done, otherwise we can't do it alone and that's why we need foreign support for radar and engine developments.


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## 帅的一匹

Good job LCA

http://image.club.china.com/twhb/272426111/2012/3/20/1332213143283.jpg

??-?-???LCA?2011?-?


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## rockstarIN

wanglaokan said:


> Good job LCA
> 
> http://image.club.china.com/twhb/272426111/2012/3/20/1332213143283.jpg
> 
> ??-?-???LCA?2011?-?



What is it, translate please


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## Bobby

If you have Window 7....Translate option will pop up.


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## prime2012

hahaha.... for a moment i thought.. wow an appreciable chinese fellow here... and not later than 15 mins i realised after reading the article "Oh hey! another LCA basher"

This article is from a blogger : ??-?-???LCA?2011?-?

i searched for the credibility of this news everywhere online and i couldnt find a source for it and mr.wanglao has posted this link here which sounds funny.. The blogger didnt mention any source for the story he's posted either... I'v read some good chinese stories but never thought chinese storytellers are so capable of narrating a BS in a realistic way....lol

The blogger has brought out every single attribute of Tejas to comment and he's written a perfect story. Below is the story for any1 to give a credible reasoning:

January 26, 2011 India's Republic Day (National Day). As usual, held a grand parade, and demonstrate its defense R & D achievements. It is expected that LCA will fly over head, shows that this aircraft has a combat strength. Indian Army fans dismayed to find that the LCA trainer PV-5, or even, as usual was on the trailer slowly marching in the parade. From the outside, this is undoubtedly tell the public, this is still a bear to use the aircraft. Worldwide, probably is the Indian facial skin is so thick, dare to show their proud but useless things in this way.

Celebrate this stage the results of IOC has just ended, the bonus of the hair ends up everyone's pockets. HAL announced a very low-key manner, the LCA is just to get the IOC-1, under a project node is to get the IOC-2, rather than the FOC. In other words, LCA did not really get the IOC. HAL have to admit, LCA fighter IOC-1 certificate is incomplete, because many of the IOC must test not done. They need to continue the flight, the subjects did not fly after fly finished. HAL is expected to 2012 in order to get the IOC-2.

IOC certificate get our hands on, actually there are a lot of subjects did not test flight, it sounds like is ridiculous. In the end so what subjects did not fly? It can go. Light HAL revealed airborne weapons throwing, air to air / ground attack, night subjects never flew. Angle of attack of the LCA is only 20-22 degrees away from the design requirements of 26-28 degrees early na. Maximum use overload can barely fly to G-6 from the real design requirements of 9 G far worse. Speaking of the old strong -5 to achieve 5.5. The LCA design flight speed of Mach 1.8. But it is only in the test flight reached Mach 1.3 (a 1.4 Mach). LCA, low-altitude maximum speed and continued circling the rate did not meet the design requirements. The LCA design flight altitude (16,500 m, the 2011 year is raised to 16,000 m) have never come close to the flight test.

In general, LCA is far from reaching its design requirements. HAL understand that you will say to the LCA aircraft flying the aircraft but also the whole for the original design value 9G. Internal control that flew 8 G sorted China and Pakistan jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder the same even confessed later.

Zen said: This is called God Ma gray chicken.

HAL on so easily to the Indian government and the public also played out a return, called outsiders looked almost to tears, called the India Army fans wringing. Mess pair of bears like the frustration of one of the only HAL knows best.

LCA fighter problems, the old concept has long been to associate the pulse that is overweight.

Wait and see by: Mangrenmoxiang the pulse for the Indian LCA since the reason rather than fly!

LCA fighter overweight problem is not serious. Its design empty weight of 5500 kg. Decades, HAL teeth stare offerings by heaven, the LCA empty weight is the number refuses changed. Boast of so-called 45% of the weight of the composite material, and therefore very light. LCA test flight in poor performance, the accuracy of the outside world on the 5500 this figure has always been very skeptical. HAL has been claimed that light composite materials, is conducive to weight loss. HAL long term attempt to lose weight for the LCA, but unfortunately do not have that diamond, the LCA is more less the heavier. 2011, the LCA has been referred to the Air Force test pilot, HAL to the basic data of the LCA must be submitted to the Air Force, its empty weight of the secret can not continue to cover up. HAL This timid morning train new empty weight: 6560 kg, 1060 kg more than the previous design specifications, an overweight of 19%.




The figure shows the use of composites in the surface of the LCA fighter.

Dark gray for carbon fiber composites, accounting the majority of the skin.

Green for glass composite materials used for the vertical tail at the top.

The yellow Kevlar composite materials for the nose cone.

White aluminum alloy, used for air intakes, wing front and tail.

The top left of the circle shows the proportion of various materials, which accounted for 45% of the composite, aluminum accounted for 43%, 5% titanium, steel accounting for 4.5%.

LCA fighter once known as the youngest of four generations of aircraft, and now this new empty weight data have been flat and Pakistan's JF-17 (6 586 kg). Do not forget, the length of the LCA fighter is only 13.2 meters shorter than the JF-17 14.93 m 1.73 m. In the same empty weight conditions, LCA is a shorter than the JF-17. Means that HAL LCA is extremely narrow body space to accommodate an excessive weight of the structure and the necessary equipment, the result makes the LCA flying qualities comprehensive lagging seriously behind the design specifications.

Even so, the LCA, after all, the use of the F404 engine (thrust 53.9 kN, 85 kN with afterburning) used with the JF-17 Klimov RD-93 (thrust 51.2 kN 84.5 kN with afterburning) performance approximation. Even overweight, in the empty weight and engine conditions, and normally the LCA and JF-17 flight performance should be similar. The flying qualities of the LCA and the JF-17 is really too bad, such as the Mach number of JF-17 has already reached the design value of 1.8, while the LCA can only reach Mach 1.3 to 1.4. It seems The reason for this difference seems to have not only with overweight explained there might be other reasons. HAL be kept strictly confidential, outside this of course can only guess.

HAL plans (Note that the "Plan") in 2013 to receive the United States tailored specifically for LCA F414-GE-INS6 engine, the heart of another better for the rod, spoil the LCA. F414 size and weight similar to F404, but its maximum thrust up to 98 kN, 15% more than the F404.

The LCA has been for the overweight pay a heavy price, its airborne fuel will certainly be greatly reduced. A ton more empty weight less with one ton of fuel, this should be easy to understand. Reduced fuel load in the machine rely on the external fuel tank compensation, the result is a weapon mount must be a corresponding reduction in This vicious cycle of the flight envelope and operational performance of the LCA has shrunk accordingly. For a greater fuel consumption of the F414 engine in the future, of course, the quality of its flight can be improved to some extent, as to be able to improve and to what extent, the outlook remains optimistic. The F414 engine is only piecemeal, stop-gap palliative measures, apparently unable to solve the chronic LCA overweight. Dress high-thrust engine will certainly have to increase the weight of the structure can be expected that the LCA and fuel consumption indicators (such as combat radius, and weapons mounted amount, etc.) in its Mark-II, but will decline further.

LCA into this spiral to be regarded as not pull it out.

The ugly words to F414's LCA is not enough, the Indians certainly incite Lai Meiguo engine does not give a fresh installed in front. A self-styled "superpower" with the strong words of a true NB superpower waiting to be spectacular. Finally, who to who repairs hard to say.

The old concept has long been the HAL out of mind, they have to reduce the proportion of the use of composite materials, aluminum alloy substitution in order to achieve weight loss. Indians not understand this truth, but they have always refused to do it.

Why Indians have to drill a composite material of this dead end? This is obviously the air war theory. Indians believe that the composite materials can greatly reduce the reflection of radar waves, so you can make the LCA to achieve stealth. Close to the enemy fighters with the same level (such as the JF-17 Thunder) when fighting is not easy was found locked and will be able to use stealth advantage before the enemy discovered the target, and then use its BVR missile first attack, which made air combat victory. With such a magic weapon, even if the flight performance almost does not matter, anyway LCA do not want to engage in any close combat.

Starting from this idea, HAL to fight to the death does not change his mind, and prefer overweight expense of flying qualities and weapons mount, but also keep the stealth performance composite unshakeable has been used now. Of course the LCA stealth, and the F-22 than worse with grade. Composite materials, no matter how good, the body can not reach the realm of golf that is not in accordance with the modification stealth radar cross section.

LCA fighter test flight planned in 2011 throughout the year ranked the full to the brim, the test group in full swing in busy flight test in accordance with the requirements of the IOC-2. I did not expect April suddenly something happens. An LCA in the ground taxiing to a fuel leak. Fortunately, the problem found on the ground, that if in the air, the consequences would be extremely serious. Air Force and HAL can not be taken lightly, and immediately ordered the entire LCA fleet grounded all. Since then, the HAL has spent four months transforming the oil and hydraulic systems, the correlation structure has been modified, and finally solve the leakage problem, to August, to restore the LCA test flight.

April 29, 2011, the Air Force announced that the LCA has completed a six-night flight tests, including one Israeli radar and Litening targeting pod attack.

According to the announcement in May 2011, the LCA has completed only gravity bombs put experiment and R-73 short-range air-to-air missile launch. Later revealed the news that the R-73 is the target launch is probably the detection of missile pylons and missile smoke whether from the LCA engine.

September 2011, LCA began in Jaisalmer, laser-guided bomb delivery, and electronic warfare test.

Subsequently, in November, the LCA team stationed in the southern tip of India, Goa, Hansa Ji to sea-level flight tests, as well as R-73 air to air missiles aimed at the launch.

But regardless of the Air Force how hard we try, the end of 2012 to get the FOC be regarded as completely No way.




October 3, 2011, the Air Force Commander Browne bitterly announced the FOC will be delayed one year to the end of 2013. Surprisingly, November 18, he announced that the FOC is expected in 2014.

After the date of the IOC and FOC will not do it again postponed, you judge for yourself, anyway, the Indians themselves pumping their own mouth or very ground, do not believe you read on.

In addition to the above test flight in 2011, the Indians have a limited production series (LSP) follow-up machine also have significant expectations. Which the LSP-6 machine is designed to fly the angle of attack. Has 11 LCA Tian Fei, the angle of attack is always at 20-22 degrees, is far less than the design target of 28 degrees. This makes the LCA mobility greatly reduced. HAL back to see what you want out of the active-duty MIG-21, how people will be able to fly out of the 28-degree angle of attack? Now a lot of effort specifically made a flying angle of attack of the LCA, this approach can only rely on weight loss in the same aerodynamic layout, that is independent of the device within the machine removed, to the LCA to a large thin. This approach seems to cut corners trying to cheat is suspected. However, LCA is for so many years is by the set of mixed over, and then play back there why not? As long as there is an LCA flying out of a 26-28 degree angle of attack, presumably LCA can muddle through. If the other LCA still fly no such angle of attack, and to do so, what implications does ultimately to equip the Air Force marks an LCA?

Or flicker yourself?

The last two limited production series is also long overdue. LSP-7 and the LSP-8 has long been off the assembly line, HAL had also vowed to ensure the LSP-7 will be the maiden flight in August 2011, but in August, nothing has happened. Subsequently HAL time to release a new first flight date, but it was not until February 5, 2012, two LCA failed to God.

The rest only could get out to show off the LCA Navy prototype NP-1. NP-1 has been off the assembly line as early as July 6, 2010. HAL roll out the red carpet to joyfully celebrate its birth.

Can clearly see from the picture, the NP-1 is a two-seat trainer. In order to adapt to the additional impact of the landing of an aircraft carrier deck, its landing gear is newly designed, more stout than the landing gear used on the LSP. The body structure of the NP-1 corresponding to the strengthening and the installation of the aft hook. In addition, the NP-1's head changed to slightly drooping to improve landing when the pilot's view. All this gave the NP-1 increased the weight of the structure to make it more heavy. NP-1 in the future way to slip jump take-off roll distance is very short, double overweight NP-1 can only be a substantial reduction of plant oil and external weapons can barely take off. The HAL did not dare to disclose the NP-1 empty weight data, but they also did not forget flicker outside, said the NP-1 plug-in to a staggering 3.5 tons.

In accordance with the established practice of the Indians, the Navy, announced an order for six off the assembly line in NP-1.

Did not think that NP-1 than the LSP-6, 7,8 more disappointing. The new landing gear even 400-500 kg overweight. NP-1 first flight date has repeatedly announced and postponed several times. December 4, 2011 Indian Navy Festival, HAL to an earlier serious oath to the NP-1 in the first flight of the day lying shamefully off the air. Afterward the HAL refused to give up, put on the spot ruthless, said before Christmas 2011 NP-1 bound to its first flight. By the end of December, NP-1 is still spinning on the ground and refusing to fly. The announcement to be lost again. HAL public fan post of his big ears. As of today (February 5, 2012), NP-1 has been off the assembly line 19, when its first flight remains a mystery.

Throughout the performance of the LCA project in 2011, can only be described as lackluster to. Throughout the year, a new LCA first flight, the IOC and FOC are not completed by the node, tossing a year, the result is the entire plan to postpone for two years.

HAL and the LCA in 2011 several outstanding highlight is:

No crashes, maintaining records, rare.

(2) exercise the team.

Government agreed to continue funding to engage in LCA down.

In fact, the Indian Air Force has long been impatient for HAL and LCA. They are really interested in is not the LCA, but how to buy the Eurofighter as soon as possible a good lean fighter facing the embarrassing situation. The Government of India, they certainly understand that, no matter how big the setbacks and difficulties, in order to eventually establish a decent domestic fighter industrial or Degen TG was like, teeth and stick to it.

Then TG Ku Haha make an airplane having a spirit of braving the Indians now?


Please readers if u can google up and find any credible explanation for this story post me with updates if there's any source for this rubbish...!! Thnx


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## 帅的一匹

It is not a story, it is the objective truth. LCA is seriously lagged behind. HAL should instrospect the reason of lagging cause they should take responsibilty for all the Indian military fans in India. Lots of Chinese Scientist get cancer in the hardworking and insist staying on his post until death. Indian scientist should learn the enduring hardship spirit of Chinese ones. If you love your country, prepare die for it.


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## 帅的一匹

t50russiandragon said:


> I urge India to cancel the Tejas and buy the MiG-35 instead.


Although LCA is not that successful at this moment, but al least it teach indian how to build a combat airpalne. This will never gonna be gained through procurement. It is a right decision for India buying Rafale rather than MIG-35. Mig-35 is a short leg.


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## Black Widow

wanglaokan said:


> It is not a story, it is the objective truth. LCA is seriously lagged behind. HAL should instrospect the reason of lagging cause they should take responsibilty for all the Indian military fans in India. Lots of Chinese Scientist get cancer in the hardworking and insist staying on his post until death. Indian scientist should learn the enduring hardship spirit of Chinese ones. If you love your country, prepare die for it.




The sole responsibility of delay goes to the armed forces. The armed forces are not flexible, They want final finished product. Like I said Earlier other country forces compromise on quality where as Indian armed forces show adamant behavior. 

There are many reason behind the armed forces delay tactics.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1807 Test Flights successfully. (20-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,*PV2-218*,*PV3-335*,LSP1-70,*LSP2-202*,PV5-36,*LSP3-47*,LSP4-46,*LSP5-72*,LSP7-1)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1801 Test Flights successfully. (15-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-217,PV3-334,LSP1-70,LSP2-201,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-70,LSP7-1)


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## 帅的一匹

Black Widow said:


> The sole responsibility of delay goes to the armed forces. The armed forces are not flexible, They want final finished product. Like I said Earlier other country forces compromise on quality where as Indian armed forces show adamant behavior.
> 
> There are many reason behind the armed forces delay tactics.


You mean the standard of FOC is too high?


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## Black Widow

sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1807 Test Flights successfully. (20-Mar-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,*PV2-218*,*PV3-335*,LSP1-70,*LSP2-202*,PV5-36,*LSP3-47*,LSP4-46,*LSP5-72*,LSP7-1)
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1801 Test Flights successfully. (15-Mar-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-217,PV3-334,LSP1-70,LSP2-201,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-70,LSP7-1)




Today I saw Su30MKI in bangalore sky. Its very uncommon to see MKI here.



wanglaokan said:


> You mean the standard of FOC is too high?




Yes its very high for Indian armed forces. They will not accept LCA if
a) It is not able to complete night mission.
b) It is unable to perform ground attack role.
c) if it is unable to perform A2A role.
d) if doesn't qualify standard
e) if it doesn't climb to a height which IAF want.
f) it can not have AoA what they want.


Earlier they wanted every thing ready, But due to A K Antoney they agree on IOC (Initial operation clearance). Sad but true. 

Last but not least, Indian armed forces are free to change the requirement at any point of time. They can change the requirement at the time of delivery as well..


And finally they are free to sabotage the home made machine. In one legendary incident they sabotaged Arjuna tank (German) Engine and blamed DRDO for failure. DRDO was in shock while Greman gone crazy as there proved engine failed.  (Imagine a proved German engine failed. )


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> The sole responsibility of delay goes to the armed forces



 DRDO & MMR or Kaveri problems? ADA & drag and weight issues? IAF had their parts as well, but the biggest problem was caused by DRDO and ADA.


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## Thundersword

Black Widow said:


> Today I saw Su30MKI in bangalore sky. Its very uncommon to see MKI here.



Actually I was surprised to see MKI's in the LSP-7 first photos. two of em' there!


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## POPS

Thundersword said:


> Actually I was surprised to see MKI's in the LSP-7 first photos. two of em' there!



so does that mean they were in a mock dogfight or something like that?


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^Nope they are with the ASTE.
A BRFite spotted a MKI taking off just before the Tejas LSP7 took off.


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## Black Widow

*Is Kavery a Failed product???*

Lot of time we discuss about Kaveri engine, the question comes in mind is it a failed project??? As Kaveri is related to LCA, I thought to discuss it here. Lets go point wise

*Why Kaveri*
1. HAF Marut was unable to get good engine (No country was willing to sell us Engine for HAF Marut). So India decided to go for engine as well. 

*When Kaveri:*
1. It was ambitious time line for DRDO, They started Kaveri project in 1989 and wanted it to be ready by 1997 (Just 8 years) in 300+ Mill USD. The expert believe that 4th gen engine research cost comes around 2bil USD. 
2. Till date Kavery project has eat 500+ mill USD. 1/4th of experts estimate.

*What Kaveri?*
1. Initially it was designed for 1100KG weight , 51/84KN thrust. After many year IAF changed the requirement and they came uop with new requirement and that is 60/93-100 KN and 1100 KG weight.

*What GTRE made?*
1. Current K9 has 51/81 KN thrust with 1235 KG weight. 
2. K10 is suppose to have 1100 KG weight and 60/93-100 KN thrust.

*Point should be taken :*
1. french with many year of experience took 14 years to come up with M88 Engine (To power Rafael).
2. If we cut 50 kg weight from LCA MK1 and put Kaveri into it The performance will be same what we are getting from GE404.
3. We can use is as replacement of GE404IN and RD33.

*Data:*
KAveri Engine
Weight: 1,235 kg
thrust: 52/81 (dry and afterburner)

*GE404IN:*
Weight:1036 Kg
Thrust: 49/79 KN

*RD33*
Weight:1,055 kg
thrust :50/81 KN.

So if you go by Airforce early requirement Kavery is failure coz its weight is 100Kg extra (Which can be compensate by good airframe design. ) Kavery is not complete failure, It can be used in any LCA MK1. 



Now lets start the discussion


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## thinkingcap81

Hi,

What about Kaveri quality issues and the number of service hours before major engine overhauls? What are the details about rapid increases in thrust when required?

i don't know of these issues but they are important. Chinese are having similar problems even though their industry is more mature.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> *Is Kavery a Failed product???*



Yes, because it didn't met it's prime goal, to be useful to power LCA MK1! 

I have some doubts on your initially estimated weight specs of K9, because it was meant to be a light engine, with 81kN thrust, which was developed even according to western standards, so the weight aim must had been around 1000Kg or lower, but it turned out to be 1100Kg or even heavier.

Several other specs are wrong as well, GE 404 IN 20 offers 55kN and 85kN for the version we use in LCA MK1, RD 33-3 series offers 83kN and the MK version of the 29Ks even 90kN thrust, while beeing lighter as well. So currently, Kaveri is not able to replace a single foreign fighter engine and some reports says it fell way shorter in terms of thrust than you think. That's why the plan now seems to be to co-develop the Kaveri K 10 and replace the GE 404 IN20 during future upgrades of LCA MK1, because there is simply no hope for the K9 to reach that level.
*
So the engine itself is a major failure of DRDO, while it was a major planning failure in the LCA project, to be dependent on K9 and not using a proven stopgap engine first!*


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## 帅的一匹

LCA is over weight.


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## DrSomnath999

*PLZ NOTE ANYONE HAVING PROBLEM VIEWING THE PICS THEN PLZ 1ST SAVE IT IN YOUR PC THEN ZOOM IT FOR BETTER VIEW*

*I)LCA'S AERODYNAMICS* 





*II)LCA'S WING LOADING vs T /W RATIO IN COMPARISION TO OTHER 4TH GEN FIGHTERS*





*III)LCA'S STRUCTURE ,MATERIAL , WEIGHT REDUCTION & STEALTH* 





*IV)LCA'S MULTI MODE RADAR* 







*V)LCA'S SENSOR SUITE* 








*VI)LCA'S ENGINE ,HYDRAULICS & USMS* 





*VII)LCA'S COCKPIT ENVIRONMENT* 









*VIII)LCA'S LIST OF LRU & AVIONICS*





*PLZ NOTE:
THIS ANALYSIS IS FROM B.HARRY & THIS PDF IS FROM B#####T R#####K.COM SO LINK WONT WORK HERE*

BUT TRY GOOGLE
Google

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## POPS

Congratulation's on another good job DrSomnath999


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Just compare the diameter of LCA radar with the contemporary fighters. For such a small plane, such a big radar.

LCA ~ 650mm (MMR)

F16 ~ 660 mm (APG-66, APG-68, APG-80 families)
F-18 ~700mm (APG-65, APG-73, APG-79 families) 
F-35 ~700mm (APG-81) 
F-22 ~900mm (APG-77) 
Gripen ~500mm (PS/05 family) 
M2000 ~500mm (RDM, RDI, RDY families) 
Rafale ~600mm (RBE family) 
Typhoon ~700mm (ECR-90/CAPTOR family)


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## somebozo

Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?


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## Matrixx

WHy JF17 is not in comparison?



somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



Because Rafale is best in its class.....


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## ARCHON

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



did u even read the article....


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## sancho

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



Come on, no need for that. We needed a proven fighter that adds more capabilities to IAF and provides us with latest techs for our industry.

If we had planned LCA project in a better way, MMRCA wouldn't be needed, because the LCA as a fighter has undeniably a high potential and the radar diameter comparison of BlueDot_in_Space just shows one part of it. The problem is not the fighter, but the high expectations of it's developers. I still see a good chance tha LCA can be a big success, but again it depends on the developers if they keep focusing on it, or it they already dream of more.

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## kingkobra

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



1.Because we can only make around 8 LCA per year.
2.LCA is good against pakistan but it is not better than rafale.
3.MMRCA contestants were the best planes in the world and we can buy them so we are buying them


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## Matrixx

Rafale is far better than LCA....Having Rafale is always good....LCA got breather to develop further even it is inducted....


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## DrSomnath999

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?


LLLOLLLZ OH boy , india is not dying for 126 AMCA from france ,but we are buying it & going to coproduce it & utilize some of it's 
cutting edge technology in the development LCA mark2 , FFGA & of course AMCA like 
1)future development of AVIONICS & ECM with THALES of france, 
2)KAVERI + scenema engine (ECO)
3) also who knows development of ramjet powered astra in future with the help of MBDA
for more info 
top 10 reasons why india did the right thing by chosing rafale read this thread 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-523.html



Matrixx said:


> Rafale is far better than LCA....Having Rafale is always good....LCA got breather to develop further even it is inducted....


WTF are u comparing rafale with LCA

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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> *If we had planned LCA project in a better way, MMRCA wouldn't be needed, *because the LCA as a fighter has undeniably a high potential and the radar diameter comparison of BlueDot_in_Space just shows one part of it. The problem is not the fighter, but the high expectations of it's developers. I still see a good chance tha LCA can be a big success, but again it depends on the developers if they keep focusing on it, or it they already dream of more.


exactly we could have invested only on PAKFA rather than on MMRCA .Just becoz of poor administration & bad luck regarding 
sanctions we could have inducted 1-2squadron LCA mark1 much earliear by 2012 & started development of more advanced LCA mark2


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## DrSomnath999




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## AGHORI

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



It is not AMCA!! Its MMRCA!
LCA is in the lightweight category while MMRCA is in the medium weight and range category. Answer to the not so genious. We need to have a high-medium-low mix of aircraft for strategic reasons.


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## YouGotRouged

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?


 
You do know that there is a considerable world of difference between the MRCA, LCA and AMCA?

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## Abingdonboy

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



Such ignorance from a senior member is truly shocking. I am not going to even bother and educate you to the differences between the LCA and MMRCA because going by what you've said I'd be here all night.

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## anathema

B Harry expired some years back in his 20's! One of the best posters that i have seen and interacted with . Amazing knowledge ! He will be Missed !!!!


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## DrSomnath999

anathema said:


> B Harry expired some years back in his 20's! One of the best posters that i have seen and interacted with . Amazing knowledge ! He will be Missed !!!!


yes his real name was Harish Balaji K aka B Harry who died of heart attack in 2007 ,his article on LCA by far was the best article on
lca till date now

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## Alfa-Fighter

sancho said:


> Yes, because it didn't met it's prime goal, to be useful to power LCA MK1!
> 
> I have some doubts on your initially estimated weight specs of K9, because it was meant to be a light engine, with 81kN thrust, which was developed even according to western standards, so the weight aim must had been around 1000Kg or lower, but it turned out to be 1100Kg or even heavier.
> 
> Several other specs are wrong as well, GE 404 IN 20 offers 55kN and 85kN for the version we use in LCA MK1, RD 33-3 series offers 83kN and the MK version of the 29Ks even 90kN thrust, while beeing lighter as well. So currently, Kaveri is not able to replace a single foreign fighter engine and some reports says it fell way shorter in terms of thrust than you think. That's why the plan now seems to be to co-develop the Kaveri K 10 and replace the GE 404 IN20 during future upgrades of LCA MK1, because there is simply no hope for the K9 to reach that level.
> *
> So the engine itself is a major failure of DRDO, while it was a major planning failure in the LCA project, to be dependent on K9 and not using a proven stopgap engine first!*



In history , NO Engine was 100 % successful and made unto its specifications even chinas has WS-10A , then came with WS-10B and now WS1-10C which is requirement and design paramenetrs.

But it doesn't prevent them to make WS-10A called successful even it required hauling after 30 hrs against western standard of 300 hrs. ? so chinese called in successful and now will you call WS-10A a complete failure? 

Kaveri , is a very first attempt by India to make engines and in future with more R&D in metals they can reduce the weight also. India should start using Indian engines and modified will happen with time.

One says , Challenger tank didn't make as good as in First attempt, it a long history over period of time to build tanks and modified it , like T-90 came form T-80 and t-80 came from -T72 over a period of time , what if someone at that time ask T-90 tank and says t-72 is fail we want t-90 now ?

This is happening with Arjun , they want t-120 type tank and t-90 era , Arjun can evolve over a period of time and compete with any latest Russian / Western Tank in 5-10 year time frame.

It is some Indian people mentality which want more then F-35 plane specs in the time f-35 era.

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## Ping

Old article written by Harry, most known for his articles in ACIG. Yea, he died a few years back.

Some specs in that article needs to be updated, one which caught my eye was the empty weight. LCA has gotten fatter by over a tonne! Still lighter than JF-17 by a few kilos, but still has an anemic thrust to weight ratio due to the massive weight gain, according to the IAF. Even the superior thrust of American engine failed to increase the thrust to weight ratio to impress the IAF. So a newer engine was needed but it was a bigger engine than the previous one, and LCA has to be slightly re-designed. Now redesigned LCA is to be known as Tejas Mark-2. The rest all is history. 
How one parameter deficiency leads to a snowball effect is clearly visible here.

What really intrigues moi in all of this is the standards of the PAF. JF-17 being heavier than LCA and its Russian engine producing less thrust than the LCA's American engine, clearly has less thrust to weight ratio than LCA. But still PAF is ok with it while IAF needs nothing more than a new version of the fighter. Is IAF spoiled by SU-30MKI & MMRCA(Rafale), or is PAF status so bad it has been reduced to accepting Chinese Junks no matter what the jet's performance. Who knows. Maybe both.


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## sancho

Alfa-Fighter said:


> But it doesn't prevent them to make WS-10A called successful even it required hauling after 30 hrs against western standard of 300 hrs. ? so chinese called in successful and now will you call WS-10A a complete failure?



I wouldn't call it a success yet, but it's far away from beeing a failure like Kaveri engine, because their engines were developed and integrated into the fighters they were aimed at, which is a crucial difference! 
WS 13 engine for example was integrated into JF 17 and is officially given with 86.37kN which is just slightly better than the RD93, although not at the aimed level so far. However, it could be used for the fighter if required and the further developments and upgrades can bring it to development goals.
Compare that to Kaveri:

- far away from development goals
- is not useful for LCA
- offers no scope to achieve the aimed thrust, which is why even DRDO itself prefers a co-development

But the key difference of their and our engine developments is, that they were smart enough to let none of their fighters beeing dependent of the indigenous engines! They used proven AL 31 and RD 93 engines from the start and that's why J10A, J11A and JF 17 Block 1 are inducted into operational service and why LCA is not! 

*Again, I am all for indigenous developments, but with some logical sense and not blinded by pride ! ! !*

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## sancho

Ping said:


> What really intrigues moi in all of this is the standards of the PAF. JF-17 being heavier than LCA and its Russian engine producing less thrust than the LCA's American engine, clearly has less thrust to weight ratio than LCA. But still PAF is ok with it while IAF needs nothing more than a new version of the fighter. Is IAF spoiled by SU-30MKI & MMRCA(Rafale), or is PAF status so bad it has been reduced to accepting Chinese Junks no matter what the jet's performance. Who knows. Maybe both.



The general development goals of both fighters might be the same (improving indigenous aero industry, less dependance on foreign techs and possible sanctions, a low end baseline fighter), but the technical requirements set up by the forces and the companies behind it are pretty different. That's why LCA has a higher potential, with highly capable fighters like MKI, M2K and Mig 29s already in the fleet and development basically aimed on western standards, which is one reason why Russian techs and help were often rejected. But at the end they (mainly China) showed us, that doing it simple and easy, sometimes is the better way than aiming too high!

When inducted, LCA will be a good addition for Indian forces and an important step for Indian industry, just like JF 17 already is in Pakistan, so both will meet their main aims, while we have to admit that certain parts were failures.


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## SQ8

The analysis is ok.. again.. outdated..as Sancho pointed out.
Please keep the JF-17 out of this.. since it usually will boil down to an ego match between fanboys.


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## nomi007

Ping said:


> Old article written by Harry, most known for his articles in ACIG. Yea, he died a few years back.
> 
> Some specs in that article needs to be updated, one which caught my eye was the empty weight. LCA has gotten fatter by over a tonne! Still lighter than JF-17 by a few kilos, but still has an anemic thrust to weight ratio due to the massive weight gain, according to the IAF. Even the superior thrust of American engine failed to increase the thrust to weight ratio to impress the IAF. So a newer engine was needed but it was a bigger engine than the previous one, and LCA has to be slightly re-designed. Now redesigned LCA is to be known as Tejas Mark-2. The rest all is history.
> How one parameter deficiency leads to a snowball effect is clearly visible here.
> 
> What really intrigues moi in all of this is the standards of the PAF. JF-17 being heavier than LCA and its Russian engine producing less thrust than the LCA's American engine, clearly has less thrust to weight ratio than LCA. But still PAF is ok with it while IAF needs nothing more than a new version of the fighter. Is IAF spoiled by SU-30MKI & MMRCA(Rafale), or is PAF status so bad it has been reduced to accepting Chinese Junks no matter what the jet's performance. Who knows. Maybe both.


90% indian airforce airforce base on russian jets
its mean they are junk



Oscar said:


> The analysis is ok.. again.. outdated..as Sancho pointed out.
> Please keep the JF-17 out of this.. since it usually will boil down to an ego match between fanboys.


oscar sir kindly warn every 1 donot use pakistan in this thread


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## foxbat

nomi007 said:


> 90% indian airforce airforce base on russian jets
> its mean they are junk


Is RD 93 a Russian Engine ??


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## Dash

sancho said:


> The general development goals of both fighters might be the same (improving indigenous aero industry, less dependance on foreign techs and possible sanctions, a low end baseline fighter), but the technical requirements set up by the forces and the companies behind it are pretty different. That's why LCA has a higher potential, with highly capable fighters like MKI, M2K and Mig 29s already in the fleet and development basically aimed on western standards, which is one reason why Russian techs and help were often rejected. But at the end they (mainly China) showed us, that doing it simple and easy, sometimes is the better way than aiming too high!
> 
> When inducted, LCA will be a good addition for Indian forces and an important step for Indian industry, just like JF 17 already is in Pakistan, so both will meet their main aims, while we have to admit that certain parts were failures.



The LCA was introduced with a very high expectation from begining. Like you know both Engine and the plane were aiamed to give us both the tech-beds. Kaveri program whould have been de-linked from LCA long back and GE could have come much earlier and there you go with an incredible reliable fighter.

I will mostly blame the co-developement of Kaveri along side LCA was the biggest drawback. LCA minus the engine has already donated way toom much to our aero-space industry, so that aiming too high has ben so far successfull for LCA, no matter who says what. But Not Kaveri.



nomi007 said:


> 90% indian airforce airforce base on russian jets
> its mean they are junk



Shall we go for a ride with Engine's made by Russia? and then if we decide its junk then from next time I will call it junk too. Commenting without knowing is nothing but hatred fueld ignorance.


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## SQ8

foxbat said:


> Is RD 93 a Russian Engine ??



He was rhetorical.. 
probably meant that if the person in question was declaring a certain Russian product junk.. considering that most Indian A/C use Russian engines .. does this imply that they are junk too?
Funny how low level jabs of immaturity emanate from those with fragile ego's all the time.

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## Skull and Bones

nomi007 said:


> 90% indian airforce airforce base on russian jets
> its mean they are junk



But their engines are good, really.


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## AADHAAR

Kaveri is an achievement which needs to be built upon.

Let's ignore the chinese .... they are hardly anybody worth comparing. They can produce WS-10A .... take it on a single engine fighter without sufficient ground testing ... ignore the crashes.

India's approach has been more in sync with American, French and Israeli development cycle. 

We already produce AL-31 engines in India, but Russian engines are not what we benchmark to.

And the engines in particular (and general development thinking for other products) is resposible for high availability of Mirage-2000s (compared to russian fighters) and the capabilities of C-130 transports compared to IL-76.

*GTRE is on the right track .... Kaveri has already taken to the air, powering IL-76 aircraft in test flights. The Phase-I trials have been successful.*

With all the useful data generated, Kaveri is being upgraded.

If you say Kaveri is a failure ... you will also keep lamenting that GSLV is also a failure. Both conclusions are wrong.

Even the first flight of PSLV failed .. but gave vital data to correct the computer errors. And now see how the PSLV program has matured.

Look at Arjun ....

Similarly, Kaveri is also on the right track to be successful.


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## gubbi

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? Question for the genious?



LCA = designed as a point defense and interceptor aircraft. To replace the aging interceptors in IAF inventory - the mighty MiG 21s

Rafale = a multirole aircraft with deep strike capabilities. Bought to replace the old and end of life Jaguars and MiG-27 deep strike aircrafts in IAF inventory.


Notice the difference? If you knew anything about the role of different aircraft you wouldnt be asking such a lame question. That goes to the bot army as well.


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## killerx

so many story of LCA yar when wil it come really only LCA this and that


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## OrionHunter

somebozo said:


> Then why is India dying for 126 AMCA from France? *Question for the genious?*



*Answer for the eggheads*:

The devil is in the detail. That is, the ROLES of the aircraft in question.

*Rafale* - An omnirole fighter with semi-stealth capabilities. The Rafale is a multirole combat aircraft, *capable of simultaneously undertaking air supremacy, interdiction, reconnaissance, and airborne nuclear deterrent missions.*

*Tejas* - Mainly started as a research project, as a technology demonstrator. However, considering its development of cutting edge technology over the years, it has morphed into a *4.5 gen air superiority fighter aircraft with a secondary ground-attack role*. 

*The experience gained from the Tejas has helped in the design of the under-development indigenous 5th Gen AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft). *This one....








Cheers!

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## foxbat

Oscar said:


> He was rhetorical..
> probably meant that if the person in question was declaring a certain Russian product junk.. considering that most Indian A/C use Russian engines .. does this imply that they are junk too?
> Funny how low level jabs of immaturity emanate from those with fragile ego's all the time.



Rhetorical questions dont come across like statements.. 

What is funny though is how comments from Pakistani members always find hidden deep meanings where as responses from Indians end up being immature  To me that speaks of fragile egos somewhere else


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## DrSomnath999

Ping said:


> Old article written by Harry, most known for his articles in ACIG. Yea, he died a few years back.
> 
> Some specs in that article needs to be updated, one which caught my eye was the empty weight. LCA has gotten fatter by over a tonne! Still lighter than JF-17 by a few kilos, but still has an anemic thrust to weight ratio due to the massive weight gain, according to the IAF. Even the superior thrust of American engine failed to increase the thrust to weight ratio to impress the IAF. So a newer engine was needed but it was a bigger engine than the previous one, and LCA has to be slightly re-designed. Now redesigned LCA is to be known as Tejas Mark-2. The rest all is history.
> *How one parameter deficiency leads to a snowball effect is clearly visible here*.


well 1st of all this article is a very old article but way ahead of it's time as it has described so vividly about LCA .Still no one has
explained LCA not so detaily as he did .
And ur wrong that "How one parameter deficiency leads to a snowball effect is clearly visible here" as LCA mark1 was a intial
part of LCA programme & LCA mark 2 was it next stage of it's evolution stage
like 
RAFALE has F1 , F2 & F3 standard in which all stages were superior in technology & capabilty as compare to it's predecessor



Ping said:


> What really intrigues moi in all of this is the standards of the PAF. JF-17 being heavier than LCA and its Russian engine producing less thrust than the LCA's American engine, clearly has less thrust to weight ratio than LCA. But still PAF is ok with it while IAF needs nothing more than a new version of the fighter. Is IAF spoiled by SU-30MKI & MMRCA(Rafale), or is PAF status so bad it has been reduced to accepting Chinese Junks no matter what the jet's performance. Who knows. Maybe both.


for god 's sake dont compare JF 17 here as it would turn out another LCA bash thread so plz leave it 

REGARDS



killerx said:


> so many story of LCA yar when wil it come really only LCA this and that


plz dont worry pal just give me ur phone number i would personally call u when they induct it .Happy now


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## Storm Force

LCA will go down as a MASSIVE MILE STONE in indian indengious fighter aircraft history.

THE STRUCTURE is in place to build mk2 & if neded mk3 TEJAS. then TO MOVE ONTO AMCA and even UCAV.

For certain the way the indian GDP and military budget is growing INDIANS will have the funds (billons $$) to forfill these projects

TO SUMMARISE 

lca rcs will be equal to 1/3rd of a current early to mid 4th gen fighter ie mirage2000/F16

will carry USA engine 

ISRAELI indian radar 

INDIAN & ISRAELI weapons 

Resemble a cross between a gripen & mirage 2000

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## DrSomnath999

Storm Force said:


> TO SUMMARISE
> 
> lca rcs will be equal to 1/3rd of a current early to mid 4th gen fighter ie mirage2000/F16


true .
thanks to it's increased composite concentration, Y duct air intake , smallest delta wing design plane , Ram coating


Storm Force said:


> will carry USA engine


yes for the time being as who knows india would codevelop kaveri engine with france scenema & can replace those american 
engines in future


Storm Force said:


> ISRAELI indian radar


yes india may develop it's own aesa radar or ELTA 2052 radar is also a very powerful aesa radar 



Storm Force said:


> INDIAN & ISRAELI weapons


yes ASTRA bvraam is for sure
& isreali derby & worlds most advanced IR guided missile python 5 
well we can hope russian & french missiles can be installed on it 

but mate u forgot one more thing avionics & Electronic warfare system 

india had joined hands with israel to codevelop mayawi EW suite which the isreali would install it in their 5th gen F35 jet which
they would acquire from US . SO u can guess how advanced that EW suite should be as the isreali gonna use it in their 5th gen 
jet replacing the cutting edge US EW suite 



Storm Force said:


> Resemble a cross between a gripen & mirage 2000


and a cross or hybrid is usually superior than it's parents simple genetics fact
& LCA mark2 would gone be defintely superior to these platforms


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## born

> TO SUMMARISE
> 
> lca rcs will be equal to 1/3rd of a current early to mid 4th gen fighter ie mirage2000/F16




IMHO rcs of lca tejas will be approx 1 to 1.5 sqm(clean) and about 3 sqm fully loaded.

I say this because mig 21 has an rcs of 3 sqm(clean).
The wing area of lca > mig 21.
the paylons on tejas is quiet big and they add to rcs considerably.

Although lca uses composites,there isn't a lot of scientific data available about the amount of radar waves composites can absorb or reflect.

Does composites really absorb radiation???


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## Gnimgnay

It's not an advantage to ' carry US engine'...It is the best to carry 'Indian engine'.
Believe me, you want to desgin and use ur own engine even it performs worse. You can gradually develop ur own engines to satisfy 5 gen need. Otherwise you may end up like China, which has almost everything but engine for 5 gen. 
If you account on purchasing 5 gen engine from US, well, ...

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## DrSomnath999

born said:


> IMHO rcs of lca tejas will be approx 1 to 1.5 sqm(clean) and about 3 sqm fully loaded.
> 
> I say this because mig 21 has an rcs of 3 sqm(clean).
> The wing area of lca > mig 21.
> the paylons on tejas is quiet big and they add to rcs considerably.


LLLOLLZ U should see the frontal radome region of MIG 21 it's a big contributer of frontal RCS so based upon wing size u cant 
compare LCA RCS with MIG 21 









born said:


> Although lca uses composites,there isn't a lot of scientific data available about the amount of radar waves composites can absorb or reflect.
> 
> Does composites really absorb radiation???


i think u need to educate urselves before posting such naive post 




Stealth technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Gnimgnay said:


> It's not an advantage to ' carry US engine'...It is the best to carry 'Indian engine'.
> Believe me, you want to desgin and use ur own engine even it performs worse. You can gradually develop ur own engines to satisfy 5 gen need. Otherwise you may end up like China, which has almost everything but engine for 5 gen.
> If you account on purchasing 5 gen engine from US, well, ...


well we know it but problem we have to use it until we dont develop a powerful engine of our own & we would develop it for sure
But plz avoiding adding CHINA into this thread orelze it would do as a flame baiting for it's trollls


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## sancho

born said:


> Although lca uses composites,there isn't a lot of scientific data available about the amount of radar waves composites can absorb or reflect.
> 
> Does composites really absorb radiation???



No, it does not reflect as much like normal metall materials and that's it's advantage in this field. The coatings and paintings above these composites will be absorbent, both these features combined with the general small size of LCA adds to a low RCS. 



Gnimgnay said:


> It's not an advantage to ' carry US engine'...It is the best to carry 'Indian engine'.
> Believe me, you want to desgin and use ur own engine even it performs worse. You can gradually develop ur own engines to satisfy 5 gen need. Otherwise you may end up like China, which has almost everything but engine for 5 gen.
> If you account on purchasing 5 gen engine from US, well, ...



It depends on how you see it, from an industrial point of view it is of course better to develop own engines, that's why the last batch of LCA MK2s might get Kaveri / Snecma engines, just like the US engines in MK1 might be replaced by it.
On the other side you can look at it with a technical point of view as well and then it looks pretty different! The GE engines are highly proven and reliable, offers very good thrust and low costs to operate them, especially compared to Russian engines.

So yes, the long term goal must be getting Kaveri ready somehow, even if that requires French assistance, but for the short term, choosing the GE engines was the right decision and I wish they would choose the same way for AESA as well.


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## born

> LLLOLLZ U should see the frontal radome region of MIG 21 it's a big contributer of frontal RCS so based upon wing size u cant
> compare LCA RCS with MIG 21



sir,
Please read my post once again.
I said increase in wing area and large paylons can be a contributing factor as far as rcs is concerned.
I never said lca rcs > mig 21.



> No, it does not reflect as much like normal metall materials and that's it's advantage in this field. The coatings and paintings above these composites will be absorbent, both these features combined with the general small size of LCA adds to a low RCS.


sir,


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## ejaz007

*Contracts and Key Events*


*March 21: Costs.*
Defence minister Antony answers a Parliamentary question, and provides cost and schedule slips for the LCA Tejas, LCA Naval, and Kaveri engine. Those are reproduced above along with other information. Antony also discusses whats being done about these slips, which amounts to more oversight and monitoring. That wont cure a system whose main problem is a lack of accountability or consequences for the state-run development agencies, and whose secondary problem is the systems own red tape. On the other hand, the answer makes it sound like the government is doing something. Antony adds that:

Tacit knowledge acquired by the DRDO scientists during this project will also be applied for further aerospace technology. Kaveri spin-off engine can be used as propulsion system for Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (USAV).
Readers may note that he is not referring to the LCA Tejas program as a destination for Kaveri, despite DRDOs wishes in the matter.

*March 14/12: 6 squadrons.*
Indian minister of state for defence M M Pallam Raju tels the Rajya Sabha upper chamber that the IAF plans to induct 6 LCA squadrons over the next decade or so, including 4 squadrons of Tejas Mk.II fighters. Given current schedules, past performance, and the extent of the redesign and testing involved, India may be lucky to induct any Mk.II fighters by 2022. Deccan Herald.


LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter - With Foreign Help


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## IndianArmy

ejaz007 said:


> *Contracts and Key Events*
> 
> 
> *March 21: Costs.*
> Defence minister Antony answers a Parliamentary question, and provides cost and schedule slips for the LCA Tejas, LCA Naval, and Kaveri engine. Those are reproduced above along with other information. Antony also discusses what&#8217;s being done about these slips, which amounts to more oversight and monitoring. That won&#8217;t cure a system whose main problem is a lack of accountability or consequences for the state-run development agencies, and whose secondary problem is the system&#8217;s own red tape. On the other hand, the answer makes it sound like the government is doing something. Antony adds that:
> 
> &#8220;Tacit knowledge acquired by the DRDO scientists during this project will also be applied for further aerospace technology. Kaveri spin-off engine can be used as propulsion system for Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (USAV).&#8221;
> Readers may note that he is not referring to the LCA Tejas program as a destination for Kaveri, despite DRDO&#8217;s wishes in the matter.
> 
> *March 14/12: 6 squadrons.*
> Indian minister of state for defence M M Pallam Raju tels the Rajya Sabha upper chamber that the IAF plans to induct 6 LCA squadrons over the next decade or so, including 4 squadrons of Tejas Mk.II fighters. Given current schedules, past performance, and the extent of the redesign and testing involved, India may be lucky to induct any Mk.II fighters by 2022. Deccan Herald.
> 
> 
> LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter - With Foreign Help



I am quite amazed with the link. Instead of Kaveri Engine the link has a photo of the actress named Kaveri... Very much of a credible site.


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## ejaz007

Here is info on the cost escallation of the project:









IndianArmy said:


> I am quite amazed with the link. Instead of Kaveri Engine the link has a photo of the actress named Kaveri... Very much of a credible site.



The link is working fine. May be you have some issues at your end.


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## rockstarIN

ejaz007 said:


> Here is info on the cost escallation of the project:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


the cost escalation is overrated. The rate of one scent land in my village in 1983 was Rs-350/400. But in 2004 it was Rs-40,000/- and in 2010 it is Rs-65,000 to 80,000/-

You have to take the value of the Rupees into consideration and should discount it in order to get the real view.

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## ejaz007

rockstar said:


> the cost escalation is overrated. The rate of one scent land in my village in 1983 was Rs-350/400. But in 2004 it was Rs-40,000/- and in 2010 it is Rs-65,000 to 80,000/-
> 
> You have to take the value of the Rupees into consideration and should discount it in order to get the real view.


 
Tell this to your defense minister who presented these figures in Indian parliament. These are not my or someone elses figures. These are official Indian government figures.


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## Black Widow

ejaz007 said:


> Tell this to your defense minister who presented these figures in Indian parliament. These are not my or someone elses figures. These are official Indian government figures.




Give it a chill man, these kind of projects usually go for cost over-run. Statistics is game of numbers. You need to learn how to read it in your favor..  . With the same data you can make an argument and counter argument.


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## deckingraj

ejaz007 said:


> Tell this to your defense minister who presented these figures in Indian parliament. These are not my or someone elses figures. These are official Indian government figures.



But inflation is not taken into account still holds true even if it is presented in parliament...but then this is typically the norm...costs are given in absolute terms...Just to give you an example - Initially MRCA was costing us around $11 Billion...However now cost has increased a lot...but people failed to notice new adjusted PPP b/w US Dollar and Indian rupee due to high inflation in India...


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## Black Widow

deckingraj said:


> But inflation is not taken into account still holds true even if it is presented in parliament...but then this is typically the norm...costs are given in absolute terms...Just to give you an example - Initially MRCA was costing us around $11 Billion...However now cost has increased a lot...but people failed to notice new adjusted PPP b/w US Dollar and Indian rupee due to high inflation in India...




Exactly, What is presented here is a raw data. Every one is free to understand it according to there wisdom.


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## rockstarIN

ejaz007 said:


> Tell this to your defense minister who presented these figures in Indian parliament. These are not my or someone elses figures. These are official Indian government figures.



For accounting purpose, we take the historical data off course. That is the procedure followed all over the world. But to take a decision on the basis of those data is not feasible as there are other financial techniques to help with. It is the end user who decides or understands.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1810 Test Flights successfully. (24-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1808 Test Flights successfully. (21-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-203,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

Finally, LCA Navy all set for takeoff in Bangalore - Bangalore - DNA

Having missed many deadlines for its maiden flight, the naval prototype of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-NP1) is finally expected to fly this week. The LCA-NP1, the country&#8217;s first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne naval fighter aircraft, was scheduled to be flight-tested last year. However, technical problems led to postponements a couple of times.

&#8220;We are looking at scheduling the flight anytime now. Final trials are currently on,&#8221; said DRDO sources. They added that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA programme, along with other project members such as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) and the Navy, is carrying out final integration tests before the first flight, expected this week.

&#8220;We have successfully completed the first flight trials of the LCA Limited Series Production-7 aircraft for the IAF and now are geared up to test the naval variant,&#8221; sources added. The first flight of the LCA Navy comes at the backdrop of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approving the limited series production of the LCA Navy.

This clearance has come as big boost for the programme, after being hit by delays as in the case of its IAF version.
Compared with the IAF version, the LCA (Navy) has a few variations such as a stronger and longer landing gear, arrester hook for ship-deck landing, front fuselage drooped for better over-the-nose vision to facilitate ship landing, an additional control surface to reduce ship landing speed and consequential changes in various systems.

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## sancho

A week old, but worth noting:



> *Saab CEO Says Chance of Brazil Jet Order Boosted by Switzerland*
> 
> ...*India Prospects*
> 
> Countries beyond Sweden that operate the Gripen are South Africa, Thailand, Hungary and the Czech Republic.
> 
> The manufacturer, based in Linkoeping, hasn&#8217;t given up on selling Gripens to India, which tentatively opted to buy 126 Rafales.
> 
> &#8220;Some people there have reservations, and the decision- making process is far from complete,&#8221; Buskhe said, adding that Saab is &#8220;not campaigning hard.&#8221; &#8220;*It could for example turn out that we sell parts of technologies*,&#8221; he said.



Saab CEO Says Chance of Brazil Jet Order Boosted by Switzerland - Bloomberg


An interesting note, since this could only be for one of our own developments and most likely for LCA. The problem is, most of Gripen NGs techs are from foreign origin or co-developments, which needs approval befor they can be sold. The only part that really comes from them would be the EWS or data links, fields where India has their own developments too. Will be interesting to see, if there is something behind it or not.


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## Black Widow

sudhir007 said:


> Finally, LCA Navy all set for takeoff in Bangalore - Bangalore - DNA
> 
> Having missed many deadlines for its maiden flight, the naval prototype of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-NP1) is finally expected to fly this week. The LCA-NP1, the country&#8217;s first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne naval fighter aircraft, was scheduled to be flight-tested last year. However, technical problems led to postponements a couple of times.
> 
> &#8220;We are looking at scheduling the flight anytime now. Final trials are currently on,&#8221; said DRDO sources. They added that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA programme, along with other project members such as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) and the Navy, is carrying out final integration tests before the first flight, expected this week.
> 
> &#8220;We have successfully completed the first flight trials of the LCA Limited Series Production-7 aircraft for the IAF and now are geared up to test the naval variant,&#8221; sources added. The first flight of the LCA Navy comes at the backdrop of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approving the limited series production of the LCA Navy.
> 
> This clearance has come as big boost for the programme, after being hit by delays as in the case of its IAF version.
> Compared with the IAF version, the LCA (Navy) has a few variations such as a stronger and longer landing gear, arrester hook for ship-deck landing, front fuselage drooped for better over-the-nose vision to facilitate ship landing, an additional control surface to reduce ship landing speed and consequential changes in various systems.




CEMILAC gave the certificate?


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> CEMILAC gave the certificate?



So far yes.....

Today two LCAs in the air at blore skies, don't know that one id NP-1

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> So far yes.....
> 
> Today two LCAs in the air at blore skies, don't know that one id NP-1



Look like I miss it, I was busy today.


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## nomi007

WHY TEJAS IS LOOKING LIKE YAK-130


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## IndianArmy

nomi007 said:


> WHY TEJAS IS LOOKING LIKE YAK-130



Because It has a pair of Wings , three tires and of course a cockpit. Voila its an Aircraft !!!

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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> WHY TEJAS IS LOOKING LIKE YAK-130



because both have delta wings and thats where the similarity ends.

look at the air intake the canopy the size. the shape of the wing near the front of the fuselage . there are too many differences

but yea.. both are planes so they have to share some basic principles of flying until some unconventional method of propulsion is discovered

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## Irfan Baloch

sudhir007 said:


>



great video
thanks for sharing

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## chairborne ranger

nomi007 said:


> WHY TEJAS IS LOOKING LIKE YAK-130




dude, it COULDN'T possibly be ....we've copied it from mirage 2000 remember???? . . maula mere lele meri jaan...

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## sudhir007

`Delivery of LCA scheduled in 12th Plan period`

The development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is in progress and the delivery of the plane is scheduled to take place in the 12th Plan period, the government told the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

In a written reply to the House, Defence Minister AK Antony said, "LCA development activities leading to Final Operational Clearance are in progress... The deliveries of Tejas aircraft are scheduled in the 12th plan period."

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the nodal organisation for the development of Tejas and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the production agency, he said.

On ways to strengthen HAL, he said the agency has established ten research and development centres in order to have focus on design and development activities in the field of aeronautics and the investment in R&D has increased from Rs 662 crores in 2007-08 to Rs 853 crores in 2011-12.

"A systematic approach has been adopted for upgradation of infrastructure and technology with participation of private sector. So far ten joint venture companies have been established," Antony said.

He told the House that an expert group has been set up under the Chairmanship of B K Chaturvedi, Member, Planning Commission, to suggest measures to enhance the synergy among HAL, the private sector and the civil industry.


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## Storm Force

yak looks like thunder more than delta lca

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## sancho

Irfan Baloch said all that is needed, so lets leave it with that and stick to topic again!


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## Irfan Baloch

Storm Force said:


> yak looks like thunder more than delta lca



good point. the wing has the element from Hornet and the F-16 as well. the canopy from the side angle looks like LCA as well


and look there is even the exhaust exactly where LCA has its exhaust. now thats too much similarity


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## The Great One

Irfan Baloch said:


> good point. the wing has the element from Hornet and the F-16 as well. the canopy from the side angle looks like LCA as well
> 
> 
> and look there is even the exhaust exactly where LCA has its exhaust. now thats too much similarity


Hey what happened to


> DONT quote the trolls


?


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## janon

^^
He didn't. They were all being sarcastic, except for the first person who made the ridiculous non-observation.

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## The Great One

^^
So was I


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## India defense

sudhir007 said:


> Finally, LCA Navy all set for takeoff in Bangalore - Bangalore - DNA
> 
> Having missed many deadlines for its maiden flight, the naval prototype of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-NP1) is finally expected to fly this week. The LCA-NP1, the countrys first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne naval fighter aircraft, was scheduled to be flight-tested last year. However, technical problems led to postponements a couple of times.
> 
> We are looking at scheduling the flight anytime now. Final trials are currently on, said DRDO sources. They added that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA programme, along with other project members such as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) and the Navy, is carrying out final integration tests before the first flight, expected this week.
> 
> We have successfully completed the first flight trials of the LCA Limited Series Production-7 aircraft for the IAF and now are geared up to test the naval variant, sources added. The first flight of the LCA Navy comes at the backdrop of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approving the limited series production of the LCA Navy.
> 
> This clearance has come as big boost for the programme, after being hit by delays as in the case of its IAF version.
> Compared with the IAF version, the LCA (Navy) has a few variations such as a stronger and longer landing gear, arrester hook for ship-deck landing, front fuselage drooped for better over-the-nose vision to facilitate ship landing, an additional control surface to reduce ship landing speed and consequential changes in various systems.



Great News...All the Best LCA team...


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## sudhir007

The Tejas Arrives&#8230;&#8230; « TKS' Tales

The morning papers on 11 Jan 2011 were full of details of the ceremony at Bangalore declaring the Initial Operational Clearance for the Light Combat Aircraft now named Tejas. It was certainly a happy moment. For those of us who are not so young any more, such happy news brings with it a flood of memories from the past but connected closely to the source of happiness at hand.

My mind dwelt on the time of the later part of 1982. I had then settled down as the Air Officer Commanding (AOC) at Jamnagar, having moved there after a very exciting tenure at the Ministry of Defence as the project manager for the induction of Jaguar aircraft. We were living through a period of exciting times in the Air Force. The Jaguar had been inducted through a massive project of purchase and manufacture. Soon thereafter, the Government had also decided to purchase the Mirage 2000 which was really a modern aircraft. It seemed that at long last the Government was keen to equip the air force with the weapons it deserves.

One fine morning at about that time I received a call from my AOC in C Air Marshal JR Bhasin. The Air HQ desired that the DRDO would take on the task of designing and building a modern fighter aircraft that could be used by the air force. An outline of a proposal received from the DRDO was available with the Command HQ. The Air HQ had decided to seek field level opinion about the proposal and tabulate the wish list of the operators so that a consolidated response could be put out to the MOD and the DRDO. For this purpose a very broad based conference had been planned at the Air HQ where the operational commands and the VCAS and DCAS were to present their wish list in the form of a presentation. To prepare for the conference at Delhi, the AOC in C wanted all his field commanders and staff to apply their minds on the subject and then come down to the Command HQ at Jodhpur for a session of brain storming. He had sent a copy of the papers received from the Air HQ to me by post and I should get that by the next day. We had about four days to think about the task and to gather at Jodhpur.

I became rather exited. It is not often that one is invited to participate in shaping of the future. My base Jamnagar was one of the most active fighter stations of the Air Force. I knew that my unit commanders and their subordinate staff would be as excited about the project as I was. I called in my unit commanders and the Chief Operations Officer (COO) and informed them about the impending task. The anticipation for the detailed information to arrive was delectable.

The details were received through mail next morning. It was contained in a few pages of print. It described the intention to build a single engine tail-less delta plan-form aircraft powered by an engine designed by the GTRE. It was to have a multi-purpose radar designed and built within the country that was to be totally contemporary and to be highly capable in the air to air / air to ground / maritime roles. The aircraft was to be an unstable platform controlled by &#8216;fly by wire&#8217; technique. It was also to contain all functionalities of a small agile low-observable fighter that could be found anywhere in the world at that point of time. Its projected weight was to be seven tons empty. It was to be designed and developed within about ten years. This dream, the DRDO felt, was achievable. Personally I disagreed with that statement.

Group Captain KN (Pinki) Pillai was at that moment commanding the TACDE based on my station. Wing Commander Sunil Gulati was commanding 29 Squadron. Wing Commander Jeff D&#8217;Souza was commanding 45 Squadron. Group Captain Ravi Kumar was my Chief operations Officer. We quickly got into a huddle to formulate a point of view on the missive we had received. The discussion soon heated up and we included other senior pilots and engineers from the units into the discussion. The source of the heat generated was the vagueness of the objective of the exercise.

Indeed, the write-up that we had received was rather confusing. The project seemed extremely ambitions. An airframe to be built with extensive use of composite material of which we had no previous experience, an engine that was still on paper, a radar set that was to be better than our imported best and yet be lighter in weight and perhaps a bit smaller in size, an electronic control system for an unstable platform (the struggle with the control laws for the Gnat being still vividly in our memory), a completely unconventional digital man/machine interface while we had no experience at all of the new fangled concept of a &#8216;glass cockpit&#8217;, and all this within a decade! It sounded implausible. At the same time, the paper sent down to us clearly gave us the impression that this super duper futuristic aircraft was what we were required to commit for in ten years&#8217; time. Our Hunters, Gnats, Maruts, Mig21s would all start winding down in the nineties. If we did not start planning for these replacements realistically from now (the early eighties), we shall have undermined the ability of the air force to perform its task.

The vigor of our discussion soon pushed us into smoke and sparks rather than a beam of focused light and we had to draw back and ask ourselves whether we knew what we were talking about. What in our collective wisdom should be the focus of our comment? At last we summarized our views as follows:

We felt that the proposed aircraft was over-ambitious. We felt that we were not likely to succeed in building the aircraft within a decade. We hastened to add that we had no quarrels with the concept of dreaming big; we only needed to remain practical and credible in our endeavor.
We felt that development of critical technologies in radar and engine should be pursued with vigor but that effort must not be tied to an aircraft project clearly identified for time-bound induction into the air-force as the risk of delay or failure of the project would be too high
We reminded ourselves that in ten years time our force strength would decline. We felt that our energies would be better spent in upgrading our present strength of aircraft with better technologies in sensors and weapons. We felt that in the MiG 21 BIS we had the most optimized 7 ton fighter aircraft available in the whole world. It was however already more that 20 years old. It was therefore attractive as a target platform for substantial technological up-gradation. If we could modernize its avionics, give it a nav-attack system, add electronic self-defence capabilities, add more modern communications and add newer guided weapons and hopefully put in a modern by-pass engine into the airframe then we would have a formidable aircraft on our hands. We felt that we would be capable of handling such a development.

Having cleared our own minds, we got down to the task of preparing a presentation to convince the rest of the Air Force.

It is easy to have a gut-feeling. It is also easy to convince yourself that your feeling is based on logic and reason. Perhaps it is even easy to find support for the ideas you are feeling from amongst your friends and your immediate colleagues. It is quite a different thing how ever to present your idea in front of a large audience comprising your bosses and perhaps a segment of critical friends. It was therefore a hard grind to prepare the presentation that was to be given to the AOC in C at Jodhpur.

We started the presentation with a bald and bold set of statements laying out the three summary views we had arrived at. We were sure that such a start would shake up the audience. To substantiate the first point we put the outline of the proposed LCA as received under a microscope, put every goal stated to a comparative study with the standards achieved by the MiG21 BIS, the Mirage 2000 and a general study of achievements within public knowledge anywhere in the world. We talked of structural weight and structural volume, we talked of clean aircraft design and of drag and lift, and we talked of thrust weigh ratios and of range and endurance. We talked of Specific Fuel Consumption and fuel carrying capacities within the airframe. Bit by bit we tried to prove that to create a structure that was somewhat lighter than the MiG21 and then extract aerodynamic performance from it that almost equaled the Mirage 2000 (which was about two tons heavier) would need us to technologically improve our performance in every single element of design and construction of the airframe and engine by at least fifteen to twenty percent from our currently known capabilities or aspirations. (We were yet to build a single operational jet engine). We felt that a time frame of ten years for this scale of achievements was implausible.

We now took up the case of proposed sensors. The proposal put out by the DRDO did not include a laser rangefinder for air to ground role. The assumption therefore was that the onboard radar would have to provide primary range data for air to ground role as well as air to air role. The problem as we saw it was we had never designed any airborne radar of any sort. The radar on the MiG 21 was rudimentary. None of the aircraft of the older generation like the Hunter/Gnat/Mystere/Marut had any airborne radar. The radar fitted in the maritime Jaguars were yet to enter service. The radar fitted to the Mirage 2000 had come without any transfer of technology. It was not clear whether we were capable or creating a duplicate that would be even better in performance. The proposed LCA was smaller that the Mirage 2000. Even if we had access to Mirage 2000 radar, would it fit into the smaller volume of the LCA? There was no indication that this had been considered. Therefore, we were totally dependent on the success of the proposed MMR. If that failed or was subjected to any delay the whole LCA project would be endangered.

We also dwelt on the Kaveri as the proposed engine for the LCA. The engine was far from a reality. Even if the first few prototypes of the LCA flew on some other engine, to commit to a production run of an aircraft yet to be built based on a maiden venture on an engine yet to be designed needed a leap of faith we were unable to make.

Thus I made our first point: If the DRDO is confident of achieving everything they have aimed at, God-Speed to them. We are however skeptical about their time frame of one decade. Therefore, we recommend that the effort of the DRDO be taken up as a national project not related to Air Force funds and plans. If the DRDO succeeds in its venture and a useable aircraft is produced, the Air Force can always induct that product as soon as it is available.

We then moved over to the second point of our presentation. A modern offensive air weapon system like a fighter aircraft contains many technologically advanced components that in 1982 were not produced in the country. Apart from an aero engine and an air interception radar, many other things like secure communication, Electronic Countermeasures and counter-countermeasures, pilots&#8217; man/machine interface, survival equipment for the aircrew, oxygen systems, intelligent weapons and advanced sensors and so on. If we ever wanted to be capable of independent and effective military air and space operations, it would be necessary for us to master these technologies. We therefore felt that any research and development under taken by DRDO in these fields should be vigorously supported by the Air Force. Successes in these fields would enhance our abilities across the board. There was therefore no need to tie any of these R&D to any specific project. R&D on all component development should proceed vigorously.

The third point of our presentation was centered on our need to get some useable and effective aircraft into the air force within a decade. We mentioned that the Gnat was a spent force, the Hunters were becoming difficult to maintain, the SU-7 and the Type 77s would soon finish their lives. We needed credible replacements and we saw no inductions on the horizon. We therefore felt that a midlife upgrade for the MiG21BIS Type 75 was urgently needed. We felt that an upgrade should concentrate on new electronics and weapons. We also felt that if a less thirsty engine could be found for induction that would increase its radius of action it would be very good. We felt confident that the talent available in India was capable of delivering such an upgrade. We suggested that irrespective of what the DRDO plans about a project called LCA, the MiG21BIS upgrade program must be taken up without delay.

Having created the presentation, we polished it for a couple of days. The task of verbal delivery of the presentation was shouldered mainly by me and Pinky Pillai with able help from the rest of the members of the team. We had many talented young officers on the station. Our audio visual support for the planned presentation came to a high standard. We then proceeded to Jodhpur for the conference.

The other two major stations of the SWAC, Jodhpur and Bhuj, had kept their presentations simple. They functioned on the premise that the DRDO would deliver what ever was being promised. They just asked for a few additional items like laser ranger. The presentation at Jodhpur was an easy walk-over for us. We evoked a lot of opposition that we readily overcame. Our presentation was technically superior as we had much more resources and manpower than the other stations. After a day of debate we were chosen as the SWAC team for the presentation at the Air HQ.

The Gathering at the Air HQ was big. Mr Shahariyar, the Scientific Advisor to the Chief of the Air Staff was the organizer for the meeting as he represented the DRDO to the Air Force. However, the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements (DASR) under Air Vice Marshal JW (Johney) Greene took over the actual conduct of the conference, as ultimately they would have to become the nodal agency for induction of an indigenous aircraft.

In 1982, the SWAC was the youngest of the operational commands. We were therefore called upon to make our presentation after the other commands had had their say. The morning was tending to become a bit monotonous. It seemed to me that most of the presentations were based on thin air! At long last it was my turn. The auditorium was full of dignitaries. The Chief, Air Chif Marshal Idris Latif was present. All his PSOs and most of the ACASs and Directors were also present. There was a senior rep from the Navy. The HAL, the NAL and many other DRDO Labs were represented. The hall was actually overflowing with middle ranking officers, many of them standing two or three deep in the rear. The SWAC team took the stage. Very soon all the monotony of the morning was gone. The audacity and challenge of our presentation shook up the audience. I am however not sure whether the Chief took to our presentation kindly. He was an ardent supporter of the concept of the LCA. Our open disbelief of the DRDO&#8217;s claims and aims ran contrary to the theme of the conference. There was a frown on his face as we rambled on, and he left the hall before we came to the end of our presentation. He did however come back to be present during the vociferous Q&A session that followed.

There were some more presentations to be done after we finished. The day rolled on after a lunch break. Some time before the end of the proceeding and the summing up, I was told not to plan my departure from the Air HQ without checking with the DASR. We had planned to return on the following day. Pinky and I cancelled our plans and stayed back. Next day when we reported to the DASR, we were asked to prepare a paper summary of our presentation that included not only what we had said in the presentation but also the substance of the discussions that had followed. We struggled for a couple of days and submitted a paper. It was not a very hopeful one.

After returning to Jamnagar, we did not get involved with the LCA project at all. I had a station to command and that took all my attention. I enjoyed my job so thoroughly that I did not spare a thought for the LCA during my stay in Jamnagar. Apparently however, I did not do a good job of of my base command. I was overlooked by the promotion board. I was sent away as the CI of the Defence Services Staff College at Wellington. It was a slot for an AVM but I filled it in my lower rank hoping that the next promotion board will elevate my rank. Once again, I enjoyed my job and scarcely spared a thought for the LCA for the duration of my stay as the CI(Air) at the DSSC.

TheAir Force is ultimately a small society. Over a period of time and for any seniority band, every body gets to know (about) everybody else. From the DSSC at Wellington, I had many occasions to go down to Bangalore. There, I invariably met Ramu (then Air Commodore PM Ramachandran) who was then the Commandant of the ASTE (Aircraft and Armament Testing Establishment). He was a keen observer of the progress of the LCA project and, like most of us, wished it well. During one of these visits he told me that the DRDO had asked him to come and join the LCA team at a senior level. He was not however keen to leave the Air Force and go over to DRDO permanently. He was willing to do a limited tenure there on deputation. The DRDO had requested the Air Force for him to be deputed and the Air Force had declined to let him go. We had long interactions about the LCA, primarily laced with disappointment and lack of hope. The initial inputs for our 1982 conference had been put together by the HAL design bureau. A design study for this project had begun in 1983 but we had very little information filtering through on its progress The progress on Kavery was slow, the information on MMR was vague. Some other developments from the electronics fields were somewhat more encouraging. We had very little idea about the progress of the aerodynamic/structural development. NAL seemed upbeat about their progress on composites.

On 31 October 1984 I was in Nashik with the Industrial And Demonstration Tour for the Staff College students. The news of the assassination of the PM and the mayhem that followed stopped us on our tracks. A few extra days were spent at Nashik under high uncertainties. To keep myself occupied at that time, I spent a lot of time with my friend Wing Commander P Ashok. He was then the Chief Test Pilot with HAL Nashik. In the process, I ran into Sri Kota Harinarayana. Kota was then &#8230;&#8230;. and was located in Nashik. He was a man on the go. Ebullient and enthusiastic, he spent a lot of his time on design studies for the proposed LCA, though he was not in the LCA development team as yet. At that moment, he had just completed a study of wing-leading edge- root extension on a MiG 21. He had proposed it and had been authorized to carry out the experiment. He was quite excited about it and he took me to see the aircraft that had been modified. To me, it looked like a small modification, somewhat like the HT2 leading edge root extensions incorporated to provide a stall warning buffet. The MiG21 LREX experiment had by then been completed and the authorized number of sorties had been flown by Ashok. I did not investigate about the results of the experiment. However Sri Kota Harinarayana was really full about all the theoretical studies he was involved in for the proposed LCA. He was indeed very keen to join in the LCA effort. Soon thereafter, we learnt that the development tasks for the LCA had been shifted from the HAL Design Bureau / NAL to a new entity called ADA and Sri Kota Harinarayana had been placed as the head of ADA. The ADA took in a fair number of people from the HAL design Bureau. The lead designers from HAL / NAL who had worked on the project so far slowly drifted away.

By the middle of 1985 I moved on from the DSSC to take over the command of Ari Force Station Kalaikunda. It was a hectic tenure that kept me busy. The LCA did not enter in my thought process except an an object of keen interest. I was involved in a flying accident in February 1986 and spent the next few month in hospitals or in convalescence, plastered up to my hip. In August 1986 I retired from the Air Force. I was then only 52 years old. I was sure of my abilities. I was interested in the LCA project. It seemed to me that project management for the project needed to be strengthened. I felt sure that with my recent experience of managing the Jaguar project I could contribute. I therefore wrote a letter to Sri Arunachalam, who was then heading the DRDO, offering my services. There was a very prompt response to that letter. The SA to RM welcomed my gesture and promised to follow it up after due consultation with ADA. It was a very sweet letter, but that was the last I heard from the DRDO.

After my retirement I had more time on my hand. I kept track of the progress of the LCA project to the best of my ability. However, for the most par we only got bad news. By 1990 it had become quite clear the the time lines for the Kaveri will not match the time line for the LCA. The two projects had to be separated. Yet, the DRDO seemed blind to this need. The MMR progress was uneven. Some collaborative effort was necessary. There was no indication in the public domain that this need was being recognized. We got to know that the project definition phase for the LCA had been completed by 1989. A full scale engineering development (FSED) phase-I was sanctioned in 1993. It is difficult to list what exactly transpired relating to the project between 1989 and 1993. A higher risk alternative of digital quad-redundant path had been chosen for the fly by wire system, but no investments were being made for testing the system being developed. Instead of harnessing our own capability, the DRDO plumped for American help. This decision blew up in our face in 1998. Time ticked on. It became obvious to us that project management for LCA was not adequate.

By 28 Feb 1993 Ramu had reached his age of retirement. He was then a full Air Marshal holding the post of Vice Chief of the Air Staff. Dr Abdul Kalam was then the SA to RM. He wanted Ramu to take over the LCA project in the existing vacancy of Director General ADA as he had done good work earlier on the very successful &#8220;Jaguar Darin&#8221; project. Ramu was willing to take on the challenge provided his name was proposed jointly by DRDO & Air Force so that he was not identified as an &#8220;Air Force&#8221; man or a &#8220;DRDO&#8221; man and he could function freely in the interests of the project. Accordingly, the SA to RM routed the file through the CAS who concurred with the proposal and forwarded it to the RM Sri Sharad Pawar in Feb 93. It is learnt that the same got approval from three out of the four members of the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC) within a couple of months but was held up by the PMO for more than two years on various pretexts. It was examined by a few more search Committees all of whom had concurred with the original selection of Ramu. Dr Kalam intervened again and Ramu&#8217;s appointment was finally cleared by the PM in Jun 95. The file was then passed to the Establishment Directorate for issue of an official letter of appointment. Even after another one full year, this letter had not been issued. It looked as if no one other than Dr Kalam was interested in strengthening the LCA project Management, and even he was powerless to enforce his will in the face of departmental apathy/antipathy. Ramu was determined not to pursue his own case but act only if the formal appointment letter was issued. That post still remains vacant after almost two decades! That was that.

Once again it is difficult to list what exactly happened to the project between 1993 and 1998 beyond the public domain information that the FSED Phase &#8211; I was in progress and what ever information is included in Air Marshal Rajkumar&#8217;s book on the Tejas. In 1998 USA imposed an embargo on all support for the LCA and confiscated all data and documentation in possession of our team working there on proving the digital flight control system on an F-16 simulator. It seems that the team had not taken the precaution of backloading all their data every day. A lot of hard work now had to be redone by the team on their return to India. Ultimately, the LCA Technology Demonstrator-I flew for the first time on 4 Jan 2001.

Notwithstanding the passage of 19 years between our first conceptual meeting in 1982 and the first flight in 2001, we were all thrilled. The Air Force sanctioned the building of 5 prototype aircraft and 8 limited series production aircraft to help the project progress. As an act of faith, it also ordered first 20 and then another 20 aircraft to be built with the GE404 engine as the power plant. It was implicit in this action that the aircraft will obtain its full operational clearance by the time it enters squadron service.

From that first flight in 2001, it took another decade for the LCA, now named Tejas, to reach a partial &#8216;initial&#8217; operational clearance in January 2011. This clearance appears to be a decorative clearance. By now the 5 prototype vehicles and 6 of the 8 limited series production aircraft have flown. More than one year has gone by since this partial IOC. The project seems to have hit some rough patch. Full IOC is yet to come. Progress appears slow. We have brilliant people working in the ADA, NAL, HAL, ADE, NFTC and the host of other organizations involved with the LCA. But is the Project for the LCA being managed well? That is the question. The long gestation period for this very important national project saddens me. My grand daughter Prakriti was born about a year after the project definition for the LCA was completed. Prakriti will graduate out of the UCLA in a few weeks, while I wait anxiously for the Tejas to collect it&#8217;s matriculation certificate!

Now a days when I think about the Tejas, many scenarios, many &#8216;what if&#8217; s if you like, cross my mind. What if we had allowed the HAL design team to handle the development without going through the ADA route? What if Ramu or I were allowed to take on the project management? in 1983 &#8211; in 1986 &#8211; in 1993 &#8211; in 1996 ? What if we had the guts to depend on our own people for the development of the digital flight control system, some thing that we were ultimately forced to do anyway? What if we had listened to internal doubts expressed in muted tones and then in thunderous debates that the Kavery project will not and cannot match with the Tejas project in good time? This obvious decision had to be forced down our gullet after a long period of wasted time. (Those readers who had not been aware of the Tejas Project at that time may like to look up the transcript of the Address made by Ramu at the ASTE Seminar on Flight Testing on 10 December 1997. The full transcript was published by the Vayu Magazine). What if we had realized a couple of years earlier that the MMR will need foreign collaboration to fit into the Tejas program? What if we had coordinated our testing program more tightly with the existing assets of ASTE and HAL Flight Test Division rather than creating a brand new set-up of NFTC for the purpose? (I hasten to add that NFTC and Phillip Raj Kumar who was tasked to set it up did perform excellently. I only wonder whether we could have saved some time and resources?)

I also wonder if my original presentation in 1982 had any effect on the responses of the Air Force in relation to the LCA project? I have never regretted stating my opinion and my assessments during that presentation. I am glad that we were not swayed by over enthusiasm. I am glad that our assessment of the time required for the LCA project were more real than what was then the current wisdom. I am glad that the up-grade project of MiG21BIS to BISON standard came about. I am however sad that our professional judgement on our courses of actions to fulfill the task allotted to the Air Force is now criticized by people who do not carry the responsibility of keeping the Air Force fit for its tasks. And above all, I am saddened by the realization that in this project of developing the LCA we seem to have not reached our true potential. I know we can reach where we aim to. It has taken a long time. We are not yet there. But, we must continue till we succeed. A definitive determination to be honest to the nation, Politically, Administratively, Technologically and Morally, would help. There is no room for defeatism.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> The Tejas Arrives « TKS' Tales.



Nice find Sudhir! 


Sums up what I often said!

- national pride over logical thinking
- bad management and planning
- wrong project leaders (DRDO and ADA)
- complete overestimation of indigenous R&D capabilities
- unnecessary combination of indigenous radar and engine developments to LCA project


And the really sad thing about it is, if you change the year dates and put AMCA for LCA, you can use the same article in some years again, because they doing the same mistakes again!


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## rockstarIN

> I know we can reach where we aim to. It has taken a long time. We are not yet there. But, we must continue till we succeed. A definitive determination to be honest to the nation, Politically, Administratively, Technologically and Morally, would help. There is no room for defeatism.



And my perceptive too


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> And my perceptive too



True, but therefor we need better leadership of such projects and DRDO and ADA stop dreaming only.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1816 Test Flights successfully. (31-Mar-2012).
TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-336,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-47,*LSP5-74,LSP7-2*)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1813 Test Flights successfully. (29-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-47,LSP5-73,LSP7-1)

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## RPK

*Safety concerns stalling first flight of HAL's naval Tejas*


Safety concerns have delayed the maiden flight of the naval variant of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas light combat aircraft.

"It is very important to make sure the aircraft is safe," says an industry source. "If a disaster were to occur, it would be the end of the road for the programme."

The source says the naval variant could have its first flight "any day now". In June 2011, a programme official told Flightglobal that the navalised Tejas would have its first flight in November 2011, but this never materialised.

The source declined to provide details about the safety concerns involved in the aircraft, or what steps have been taken to rectify them. He spoke to Flightglobal at India's Defexpo 2012 trade show in New Delhi.


© Aeronautical Development Agency
After being unveiled in June 2010, the naval variant has yet to conduct its first flight. Nonetheless, in early February, the Indian navy ordered eight additional examples of the variant.

Although the naval variant was to have been powered by the General Electric F414 powerplant, the eight examples the navy ordered will use the less powerful F404.

After initial flight tests from HAL's facilities in Bengaluru, the aircraft will be sent to Hansa naval air station near Goa where it will undergo carrier compatibility tests.

The source added that the F414-powered Tejas Mk II will be rolled out in early 2014, with a first flight by December 2014.

As of 31 March, the Tejas Mk I aircraft had completed 1,816 flight tests. The type received initial operational clearance in January 2011. The source says final operational clearance could be given by the end of 2012.


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## sudhir007

Govt appoints committee to probe LCA-Navy landing gear problems | idrw.org






Acommittee has been set up to fix the problem delaying the debut flight of the home-made Light Combat Aircraft-Navy (LCA-Navy). The committee has been set up by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) to fix the aircraft&#8217;s heavy landing gear which is causing problems to the aircraft.

Usually, the world over, naval planes carry an extra weight of about 600 kg, because of their landing gear, also called the under-carriage. But the Indian LCA&#8217;s (Navy) weight is about a 1,000 kg extra, the reason for which has been given as extra safety. The US Navy, which is being consulted by the ADA, has said that the safety margin taken by India is five times than what is required and needs to be decreased to the level the world over. The aircraft is being to land because of its heavy under-carriage and has not done even one test-flight.

The aircraft, which lands on runways, follows a speed of three metres per second while descending. The ones landing on ship decks (aircraft carriers) have a speed of seven metres per second during descent. It is for this reason that a heavy under-carriage is required &#8212; to absorb shock. For runways, a flared landing is done, which is when a fighter aircraft lifts up its nose a little before the final touchdown, unlike a deck landing which is &#8220;unflared&#8221;. A deck landing is precise because of the scarcity of space. An unflared landing also gives the aircraft the momentum to take off again in case of an emergency. The naval aircraft are supposed to land with a &#8220;thud&#8221;, thereby stopping there and then, because of the shortage of space. This is achieved by the arresting wires hooking the tail of the aircraft. There are three hooks for safety purposes, and usually Indian aircraft aim for the middle one.

One of the possible changes that the committee might make is changing the composite material of the aircraft, which has made it heavier than required. A source told this newspaper, &#8220;Since it&#8217;s an indigenous effort, even if the material is changed, it will be Indian.&#8221;

Meanwhile, Defence Minister A.K. Antony informed Parliament this week that the probable date of the completion of the aircraft is now December 2014, four years after the original date of March 2010. The original cost of the programme has also gone up from Rs 948.90 cr to Rs 1,714.98 cr.

Antony said that the probable date of completion has been extended within the sanctioned cost and scope. He attributed the delay to technical complexities, non-availability of infrastructure and critical components and technology denial regimes. Other reasons cited were the increase in the scope of work, the extended user trials and the failure of some of the components during testing.

The minister assured Parliament that the project would be completed without any further delay, for which a consortium approach has been used for the design, development and fabrication of critical components. A three-tier project monitoring approach is also being followed.

By 2014 the aircraft would attain compatibility with the aircraft carrier after its mandatory trials. It would be a part of the fleet onboard India&#8217;s first indigenous aircraft carrier.


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## Roybot

> Usually, the world over, naval planes carry an extra weight of about 600 kg, because of their landing gear, also called the under-carriage. But the Indian LCA&#8217;s (Navy) weight is about a 1,000 kg extra, the reason for which has been given as extra safety. *The US Navy, which is being consulted by the ADA, has said that the safety margin taken by India is five times than what is required and needs to be decreased to the level the world over.* The aircraft is being to land because of its heavy under-carriage and has not done even one test-flight.



Jeez and then we wonder why the LCA program is so delayed!

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## rockstarIN

Roybot said:


> Jeez and then we wonder why the LCA program is so delayed!



Very true, these Sarkari babus are very afraid to sign a documents like CAs.


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## jha

rockstar said:


> Very true, these Sarkari babus are very afraid to sign a documents like CAs.



They dont want to build another Suranjan Das Lane...


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## sancho

Roybot said:


> Jeez and then we wonder why the LCA program is so delayed!



The sad thing about this is, that IN officials stated the same during a presentation at AERO INDIA 2009 and precisely even mentioned the gear. So when ADA still haven't changed it, what does it tell us about the cooperation between them and IN in the last nearly 3 years? And doesn't it confirm what the article sudhir007 posted earlier, about DRDOs and ADAs ego trips and overstimations about this LCA development?


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## sameer soz

this discussion has no relevance if done with bias, if the discussion is for LCA, then talking high about JF 17 has no relevance, since we all know & agree that JF 17 has lots of deficiencies & on top of that this plane is going to be main fighter aircraft for another 15-20 years. So that is the reason for the high nos. On top of that Pakistan as we all know cannot afford a superior plane so has to do with cheap technology provided by china, by the way China still has to develop engine themselves till that time they too are dependent on Russia. ??????? (On top of that even they are not using this plane for their AF). 

1 JF 17 = 10-15 Million USD. (One of the cheapest plane)

So, we may talk or brag whatever it's a poor man's plane with lots of deficiencies & as for LCA for which we are discussing, we all know that the main aircraft for next 15-20 years will be Su-30 Mki, Dassault Rafael, Upgraded Mig 29, PAK FGFA (5th Generation fighter) & all these planes are costing upward of 35 Million USD. So, one has to live with once deficiencies as Pakistan cannot afford superior technology on account of economic woes. So there China steps in & provides technology which is easy & cheap for use

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## sudhir007

Flight test update
LCA-Tejas has completed 1821 Test Flights successfully. (09-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-336,LSP1-71,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-48,LSP5-77,LSP7-2)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1818 Test Flights successfully. (03-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-336,LSP1-71,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-47,LSP5-75,LSP7-2)


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1824 Test Flights successfully. (11-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,*PV2-220*,PV3-336,LSP1-71,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,*LSP4-49*,LSP5-78,LSP7-2)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1822 Test Flights successfully. (10-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-336,LSP1-71,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-48,LSP5-78,LSP7-2)


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## Sergi

Any news of Navel prototype ???


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## rockstarIN

*AN APPROACH TO HIGH AoA TESTING OF THE TEJAS LCA*

1.
Introduction.
Modern fighter aircraft are a complex combination ofaerodynamic designs, flight control systems, and engines. These modern designsdemand modern test methods to evaluate their Out-Of-Control Flight (OOCF) and HighAngle-of-Attack (HAoA) characteristics. Testing has traditionally progressed fromapproach to stall maneuvers through full stall series to spins and stalls with aggravatedinputs. This approach to testing has evolved significantly with the introduction of highlyaugmented flight control systems in increasingly maneuverable aircraft throughdecreased stability. Advances in control system technology and to a lesser extent,aerodynamic design, have led to a shift of emphasis from investigating post stallbehavior and recovery to prevention of departure in modern combat ac. The fly-by-wireflight control laws resident in the Tejas LCA, in addition to providing the basic commandand stability augmentation functions, will also include departure prevention throughboundary limiting / carefree maneuvering features to enable the pilots to fully exploit thecapabilities of the airframe. The departure resistance features in the control laws alsomaximizes the useful angle of attack range of the aircraft while maintaining adequatelevels of stability. Provision of a boundary limiting function in the control laws in theinitial phase of flight testing does not guarantee that the aircraft will not depart duringlarge amplitude maneuvering since the aerodynamic data used for control laws designare based on wind tunnel data which can exhibit different characteristics in flightespecially at higher angles of attack where the data is highly nonlinea

Full text at 
Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas

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## eddie01

farhan_9909 said:


> why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?



very simple both are fighter planes and can drop bombs and missiles...


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## anathema

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas on campaign mode to complete IOC-2 missions



> *Tejas sorties have seen an all-time increase in the last one month.* Currently the PV-2, PV-3, LSPs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7 are flying. All the platforms have come out of the delay and the fuel tank concerns have been addressed. The re-arranging of the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes is perfect now. We have clocked up to 30 sorties in March and hope to up it further,&#8221; HAL sources said.
> 
> Sources say that the Tejas would head for another round of weapon trials in May and June as part of the IOC-2 schedule. &#8220;These trials would be spread across *Goa, Pokhran, Jaisalmer, Chitradurga* among others. K A Muthanna, the head of National Flight Test Centre &#8211; the nodal centre for Tejas test-flying &#8211; flew the Tejas last week. This was his first flight on Tejas,&#8221; sources said.


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## sudhir007

HAL Gears up and starts Aggressive campaign mode to complete Tejas IOC-2 schedule | idrw.org

India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has entered into an aggressive campaign mode to catch-up with the lost time, post Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) phase. Sources with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) tell Express that currently eight platforms of Tejas are racing towards completing the parameters of IOC-2.
&#8220;Tejas sorties have seen an all-time increase in the last one month. Currently the PV-2, PV-3, LSPs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7 are flying. All the platforms have come out of the delay and the fuel tank concerns have been addressed. The re-arranging of the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes is perfect now. We have clocked up to 30 sorties in March and hope to up it further,&#8221; HAL sources said.
Team Tejas has lost over six months of crucial time in the flight programme during the last one year, leave alone the overall delay in the programme. The 13th and last aircraft from the Tejas development-phase flight-line (LSP-8) is scheduled to fly in June, while the 12th one flew recently.
Sources say that the Tejas would head for another round of weapon trials in May and June as part of the IOC-2 schedule. &#8220;These trials would be spread across Goa, Pokhran, Jaisalmer, Chitradurga among others. K A Muthanna, the head of National Flight Test Centre &#8211; the nodal centre for Tejas test-flying &#8211; flew the Tejas last week. This was his first flight on Tejas,&#8221; sources said.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) too is warming up to raise the Tejas Squadron (Flying Daggers). Express had earlier reported that the IAF wanted HAL-Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) combine to complete the closure of development phase at the end of IOC-2.
Plane photo politics? Sources in HAL say that the company officials have put restrictions on releasing Tejas photos and videos to media and even to Tejas work partners, including ADA. If this bit turns out to be true, then one can expect some &#8216;photo-finish&#8217; moments in the days ahead.

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## rockstarIN

DRDO to test indigenous scram jet engine next year
NEW DELHI Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will test the indigenously developed scram jet engine next year, according to DRDO chief VK Saraswat.

&#8220;We have demonstrated the performance of a scram jet engine operating at Mach six speed (six times the speed of sound),&#8221; he said in an interview given to Doordarshan.

Theoretical projections place the top speed of a scramjet between Mach 12 (15,000 kmph) and Mach 24 (29,000 kmph), according to Wikipedia.

The fastest air-breathing aircraft is a SCRAM jet design, the NASA X-43A, which reached Mach 9.8. For comparison, the second fastest air-breathing aircraft, the manned SR-71 Blackbird, has a cruising speed of Mach 3.2.

After the successful launch of Agni-5 Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), India is all set to develop reusable rockets which will combine the technologies of both ballistic and cruise missiles.

On the range of Agni-5 missile, which was successfully test-fired recently off Odisha coast, he said with moderate modifications, &#8220;it can be extended to any range which is of our interest.&#8221;

On the technological capability available with the agency, he said: &#8220;DRDO has built the necessary technologies, production infrastructure and design capability for developing a booster or a sustainer.

&#8220;We have the capability to develop a re-entry nose cone which can withstand higher temperature and velocity.&#8221;

Reacting to reports that India does not possess sufficient indigenous technology for missile guidance systems, Saraswat said Agni-5 has used a completely indigenous and high precision missile guidance system with &#8220;0.001 degrees of per hour accuracy.&#8221;

*On criticism that DRDO sometimes does not live up to expectations, he said the agency was as good as its counterparts in advanced countries.

&#8220;The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), F-18 and Eurofighter took similar number of years and cost wise they were three times more than what we have put in our LCA,&#8221; he said.*

On the development of the Kaveri engine, Saraswat said it has performed well and was, &#8220;flown on an IL-76 aircraft in Russia for 55 hours of successful flight. We are going to upgrade it so that it can be used in India&#8217;s LCA Mark-II and future systems.&#8221;


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## Sergi

sudhir007 said:


> HAL Gears up and starts Aggressive campaign mode to complete Tejas IOC-2 schedule | idrw.org
> 
> India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has entered into an aggressive campaign mode to catch-up with the lost time, post Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) phase. Sources with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) tell Express that currently eight platforms of Tejas are racing towards completing the parameters of IOC-2.
> &#8220;Tejas sorties have seen an all-time increase in the last one month. Currently the PV-2, PV-3, LSPs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7 are flying. All the platforms have come out of the delay and the fuel tank concerns have been addressed. The re-arranging of the butting of fuel and hydraulic pipes is perfect now. We have clocked up to 30 sorties in March and hope to up it further,&#8221; HAL sources said.
> Team Tejas has lost over six months of crucial time in the flight programme during the last one year, leave alone the overall delay in the programme. The 13th and last aircraft from the Tejas development-phase flight-line (LSP-8) is scheduled to fly in June, while the 12th one flew recently.
> Sources say that the Tejas would head for another round of weapon trials in May and June as part of the IOC-2 schedule. &#8220;These trials would be spread across Goa, Pokhran, Jaisalmer, Chitradurga among others. K A Muthanna, the head of National Flight Test Centre &#8211; the nodal centre for Tejas test-flying &#8211; flew the Tejas last week. This was his first flight on Tejas,&#8221; sources said.
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) too is warming up to raise the Tejas Squadron (Flying Daggers). Express had earlier reported that the IAF wanted HAL-Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) combine to complete the closure of development phase at the end of IOC-2.
> Plane photo politics? Sources in HAL say that the company officials have put restrictions on releasing Tejas photos and videos to media and even to Tejas work partners, including ADA. If this bit turns out to be true, then one can expect *some &#8216;photo-finish&#8217; momen*ts in the days ahead.



Can anyone guess what's this "some &#8216;photo-finish&#8217; moment" would be ???

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## sangsharma

Can anyone tell when LSP6 and 8 will be flying?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> On the development of the Kaveri engine, Saraswat said it has performed well and was, *flown on an IL-76 aircraft in Russia for 55 hours of successful flight*. *We are going to upgrade it so that it can be used in Indias LCA Mark-II and future systems.*



Great, so it's useful to power IAF IL 76, oh no wait, the Russian PS 90 engines offers nearly three times the power in drythrust. So all this flight has shown was, that it is working in general, not that it is useful for *"any"* aircraft we have or develop currently for IAF.
Also the part that he left out is, that it will a co-developed K10 will be the upgraded version to power LCA MK2s and future systems (AMCA) not DRDO's own developed engine. 

*So to put it in the right words, DRDO has developed an engine that is useless and is not able to further develop it alone, to make it useful!*


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## sudhir007

sangsharma said:


> Can anyone tell when LSP6 and 8 will be flying?


LSP-6 is converted into NP-1 (naval version) which is not properly fly next weekend and about LSP-8 it will fly on Aug-sept later yr.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> LSP-6 is converted into NP-1 (naval version) which is not properly fly next weekend and about LSP-8 it will fly on Aug-sept later yr.



But wasn't LSP-6 meant to do the high angle of attack tests with the new flight controls system? Also NP-1 must have the LEVCONS as well, while LSP-6 is a version of the airforce LSP-7 version right?


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## DANGER-ZONE

One question, Why *Kaveri engine* is being tested in Russia ? 
is it a joint venture ?


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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> One question, Why *Kaveri engine* is being tested in Russia ?
> is it a joint venture ?



Because you need a test aircraft to flight test it, besides that the Russians also have certain engine test facilities we don't have yet.


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## IndianArmy

danger-zone said:


> One question, Why *Kaveri engine* is being tested in Russia ?
> is it a joint venture ?



We dont have a high altitude engine testing facility here in India. We are building one here in partnership with Boing.

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## rockstarIN

When will ADA hand over the LSP-7 to IAF for user trails? LSP-7 did 2 flights only so far.


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## SamantK

sudhir007 said:


> LSP-6 is converted into NP-1 (naval version) which is not properly fly next weekend and about LSP-8 it will fly on Aug-sept later yr.


 LSP-8 will fly June this year, thats what it is understood now


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## sudhir007

Naval LCA&#8217;s first flight today | idrw.org

Naval Tejas , successfully completed last high speed taxi trials yesterday and NP-1 has been cleared for its first flight . as per sources today will be the day the first flight likely to be carried out .

after issues with undercarriage and Landing gears , problems seems to be sorted out by ADA and HAL and it was certified airworthy recently , it was twice in recent times flight worthy certification was denied to it .

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## sudhir007

LCA naval variant

After almost two years since its rollout, the naval prototype (NP-1) of the country&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will take to the skies on its maiden flight this Friday, The flight is slated for 10 am. But it will fly with some unresolved problems. The maiden flight, however, does not mean the team LCA has overcome all the technical glitches that had forced it to miss several deadlines in the past.

The Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), sometime last week, gave its clearance for High Speed Taxi Trial (HSTT) and flight.

The flight will last 20 minutes with the National Flight Test Center (NFTC) pilots doing a sortie over a designated flight path besides testing the systems onboard for performance.

But they will not retract the undercarriage, as they do not want to take a chance. &#8220;It is potentially risky to retract it,&#8221; a source said, indicating that there are some problems still persistent. The undercarriage is retracted to reduce the drag experienced by aircraft.

Compared to Tejas, the IAF version of LCA, the LCA NP-1 will be different with a longer and stronger gear, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems and will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine.

Designed specifically for ski jump take-off and arrested landing, the aircraft was faced with heavy undercarriage problem, which sources fear might not have been addressed completely. The undercarriage was bulkier by 500 kg.

The aircraft is likely to replace Indian Navy&#8217;s Sea Harrier squadron, and already orders for six aircraft have been placed. While the NP-1 is a twin-seater trainer, the NP-2 will be a single-seat fighter.


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## satishkumarcsc

sudhir007 said:


> LCA naval variant
> 
> After almost two years since its rollout, the naval prototype (NP-1) of the countrys Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will take to the skies on its maiden flight this Friday, The flight is slated for 10 am. But it will fly with some unresolved problems. The maiden flight, however, does not mean the team LCA has overcome all the technical glitches that had forced it to miss several deadlines in the past.
> 
> The Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), sometime last week, gave its clearance for High Speed Taxi Trial (HSTT) and flight.
> 
> The flight will last 20 minutes with the National Flight Test Center (NFTC) pilots doing a sortie over a designated flight path besides testing the systems onboard for performance.
> 
> But they will not retract the undercarriage, as they do not want to take a chance. It is potentially risky to retract it, a source said, indicating that there are some problems still persistent. The undercarriage is retracted to reduce the drag experienced by aircraft.
> 
> Compared to Tejas, the IAF version of LCA, the LCA NP-1 will be different with a longer and stronger gear, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems and will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine.
> 
> Designed specifically for ski jump take-off and arrested landing, the aircraft was faced with heavy undercarriage problem, which sources fear might not have been addressed completely. The undercarriage was bulkier by 500 kg.
> 
> The aircraft is likely to replace Indian Navys Sea Harrier squadron, and already orders for six aircraft have been placed. While the NP-1 is a twin-seater trainer, the NP-2 will be a single-seat fighter.


 
I think none of the aircraft first flight was done with retracted gears.

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## praveen007

*LCA naval variant&#8217;s first flight on Friday
.
.
LCA naval variants first flight on Friday
.
. 
After almost two years since its rollout, the naval prototype (NP-1) of the country&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will take to the skies on its maiden flight this Friday.
The flight is slated for 10 am. But it will fly with some unresolved
problems. The maiden flight, however, does not mean the team LCA has overcome all the technical glitches that had forced it to miss several deadlines in the past.*
The Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), sometime last week, gave its clearance for High Speed Taxi Trial (HSTT) and flight.
The flight will last 20 minutes with the National Flight Test Center (NFTC) pilots doing a sortie over a designated flight path besides testing the systems onboard for performance.
But they will not retract the undercarriage, as they do not want to take a chance. &#8220;It is potentially risky to retract it,&#8221; a source said, indicating that there are some problems still persistent. The undercarriage is retracted to reduce the drag experienced by aircraft. 
Compared to Tejas, the IAF version of LCA, the LCA NP-1 will be different with a longer and stronger gear, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems and will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine.
Designed specifically for ski jump take-off and arrested landing, the aircraft was faced with heavy undercarriage problem, which sources fear might not have been addressed completely. The undercarriage was bulkier by 500 kg.
The aircraft is likely to replace Indian Navy&#8217;s Sea Harrier squadron, and already orders for six aircraft have been placed. While the NP-1 is a twin-seater.


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## notsuperstitious

Livefist says it has taken off, I mean the naval version.

Livefist

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## SamantK

fateh71 said:


> Livefist says it has taken off, I mean the naval version.
> 
> Livefist



Yay... another LCA milestone achieved. Now LCA has gained the momentum it lacked, lets see how our friendly neighbours feel!! 

Congrats to the team for achieving this wonderful landmark


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## chairborne ranger

np-1 and teg on the same day....we need to keep the momentum up.


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## anathema

Yes !!!! LCA navy is also on the way....It was rahu kaaal, hence they had to delay the take off the flight  (Source BR)

For all you naysayers - LCA is on a roll....

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## Dash

anathema said:


> Yes !!!! LCA navy is also on the way....It was rahu kaaal, hence they had to delay the take off the flight  (Source BR)
> 
> For all you naysayers - LCA is on a roll....



but Rahu Kaal???, we still believe in these things??, what if its a war. LCA wont take off on Rahu kaal???..anyway :Cheers:


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## IndianArmy

rcrmj said:


> without French, Russian and U.S help, LCA is as good as a plane on paper as simple as that, the only difference is France, Russia and America didnt invest any capital in it other than the joint venture of JF-17 (both parties invested capitals)



Come on... Apart from Engine what other components of the Aircraft are foreign?


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## karan.1970

rcrmj said:


> without French, Russian and U.S help, LCA is as good as a plane on paper as simple as that


Holds true for most of Chinese planes. The difference being in case of LCA, the help was formal, where as in case of China, most of the stuff was pirated/reverse engineered without the consent of IP holder..



rcrmj said:


> , the only difference is France, Russia and America didnt invest any capital in it other than the joint venture of JF-17 (both parties invested capitals)



This doesnt make sense..

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## India defense

rcrmj said:


> without French, Russian and U.S help, LCA is as good as a plane on paper as simple as that, the only difference is France, Russia and America didnt invest any capital in it other than the joint venture of JF-17 (both parties invested capitals)



So you mean to say Chinese planes dont have any parts from French, Russia or other country....

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## Dash

rcrmj said:


> without French, Russian and U.S help, LCA is as good as a plane on paper as simple as that, the only difference is France, Russia and America didnt invest any capital in it other than the joint venture of JF-17 (both parties invested capitals)



Wai..wait, We dont even know what a plane J-17 is, apart from its a reverse enginered Russian plane...any way, we can take help but not steal like theives...Keep that in mind. 



India defense said:


> So you mean to say Chinese planes dont have any parts from French, Russia or other country....



The whole plane is Russian


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## India defense

call_of_duty said:


> Are you talking about joint venture
> Then Compare china-pak joint venture (JF-17) with indo-russia joint (Sukhoi 30-MKI) venture
> 
> There is no comparison of JF-17 toy and an Air superior Sukhoi 30-MKI
> 
> Where does JF-17 Stand in rank in whole ?? you will hardly find..
> But Sukhoi 30 MKI is world class among top rankers.
> 
> LCA Tejas is indian fighter (not in joint venture with any one.)
> Which fighter is pakistaani (not in joint venture with any one ?) ??? ??



JF17 is inducted by PA so it successful
JF17 did not clear all the test but PA was in hurry to induct
China made JF17 for Pakistan only and later Pakistan supposed to make sure it clears all the parameters and test. But PA inducted it and now they are conducting all the tests.

LCA is not yet inducted by IA so it is failed
LCA will be inducted only after it clears all the test and parameters
LCA made and developed by India for not not only to provide 4.5 gen fighter plane but also to develop capabilities for other future projects. That is why India is not in hurry to induct but making sure it is developed for all the parameters

Conclusion: PA inducted JF17 and conducting all the tests so it is successful...LCA is conducting all the tests and then only will be inducted by IA so it is a failure....

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## anathema

Dash said:


> but Rahu Kaal???, we still believe in these things??, what if its a war. LCA wont take off on Rahu kaal???..anyway :Cheers:



Dash ,

It was first flight ...so they tried to do everything in auspicious way...  ..There are simply too many naysayers for LCA project - i guess the simple folks just didnt want to take a chance..

Dont worry - if time does come - it will take off no matter what Kaal it is and bomb the hell out of opposition..



I am eagerly waiting for this baby to do its thing in Dabolim...

Ladies and Gentlemen ..This is what awaits LCA navy...This video whenever it comes out will be a treat ...

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/02/shore-based-test-facility-nearing.html

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## blackops

Any pics guys ????


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## anathema

LCA Navy Official Patch ...

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## Angad_NSA

Dash said:


> but Rahu Kaal???, we still believe in these things??, what if its a war. LCA wont take off on Rahu kaal???..anyway :Cheers:



its upto u to believe or not. For me, its a science and people don't like it because they are scared to accept the fact the planetary energy affects their lives. 

40 years ago, so-called "Scientists" used to mock Yoga as tribal science. Today they advice people to practice it. The moral of story is, today's science is not mature enough to understand meanings of our vedic sciences. Let some time pass.

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## Angad_NSA



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## Hulk

karan.1970 said:


> Holds true for most of Chinese planes. The difference being in case of LCA, the help was formal, where as in case of China, most of the stuff was pirated/reverse engineered without the consent of IP holder..
> 
> 
> 
> This doesnt make sense..



Haters does not have to make sense.

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## Hulk

Congrats for building the Naval LCA, but we still do not know why we are developing it? Where are we going to use it? What is the plan?


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## Joe Shearer

Angad_NSA said:


> its upto u to believe or not. For me, its a science and people don't like it because they are scared to accept the fact the planetary energy affects their lives.
> 
> 40 years ago, so-called "Scientists" used to mock Yoga as tribal science. Today they advice people to practice it. The moral of story is, today's science is not mature enough to understand meanings of our vedic sciences. Let some time pass.


 
There is no need to display such brain-numbing ignorance. Yoga is practiced as exercise, not as science. As far as science goes, the position today is the same as it was forty years ago, although it is not clear why we are talking about forty years ago: what happened forty years ago?

There is no concept called "Vedic" science. A mathematician who was also a religious figure introduced some algorithms of superior quality and named the aggregation "Vedic" mathematics. That was his privilege, but these methods were nothing to do with the Vedas.

Please do not inject superstition and voodoo into these discussions, and particularly not Rahu Kaalam; not unless you want to reduce our genuine scientific and technological progress - it is to be hoped that you know the difference between the two - to a ridiculous level.

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## AADHAAR

indianrabbit said:


> Congrats for building the Naval LCA, but we still do not know why we are developing it? Where are we going to use it? What is the plan?



For use on both INS Vikramaditya and IAC1 (Vikrant class carrier).


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## sancho

The usual pointless celebrations :

Livefist: Celebrations After LCA Navy First Flight


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## kirankumar299

Any videos of the N-LCA first flight???


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## Angad_NSA

sancho said:


> The usual pointless celebrations :
> 
> Livefist: Celebrations After LCA Navy First Flight



If you were in that team, you will celebrate it too. why you being hateful? you got rejected from IIT entrance? 



kirankumar299 said:


> Any videos of the N-LCA first flight???



The test was categorised as classified by DRDO. ADA has decided to not release it for a while. Kindly goto GoI website and whine. Use RTI powers. 



indianrabbit said:


> Congrats for building the Naval LCA, but we still do not know why we are developing it? Where are we going to use it? What is the plan?



Why USA developed naval fighters? what is the use? what is plan?


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## Angad_NSA

Joe Shearer said:


> There is no need to display such brain-numbing ignorance. Yoga is practiced as exercise, not as science. As far as science goes, the position today is the same as it was forty years ago, although it is not clear why we are talking about forty years ago: what happened forty years ago?



White men call it excercise to hide their insecurity and keep Christians away from ticking off because if they told them truth of Yoga's origins they might not practice it as they(hardcore-christians) have phobia to Sanskritic heritages of India. Try showing a Swastik symbol to your white friend's parents.  

Yoga's basis is rooted in ancient Indian sciences which validates its utility and effectiveness. 40 years ago, western experts used to ridicule Yoga as "tribal backwardness with no usefulness to daily human life". Today, same are admiring it because today's medical science approves its effectiveness for a healthy mind and body. And as far as Vedic sciences are concerned, the word Yoga itself is a Sanskrit word and encompasses a vast discipline of meditation. As far as superstitions are concerned, then yes, Britishers used to refer Yoga as superstitous thing back in 19th century. They used to say, "who is this guy doing strange movements? Is he possessed?" In those times, europeans didn't know anything more than jumping on toes as excercise. 

And what is this rahu-kalaam? It seems you have some grudges towards some astrologer and you are taking your anger out on everyone by abusing their heritage.


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## Joe Shearer

Angad_NSA said:


> White men call it excercise to hide their insecurity and keep Christians away from ticking off because if they told them truth of Yoga's origins they might not practice it as they(hardcore-christians) have phobia to Sanskritic heritages of India. Try showing a Swastik symbol to your white friend's parents.



As is evident from the experience of hundreds, even thousands of practitioners, Yoga can be practiced as an exercise system with no reference to its philosophical ramifications. This is true of Indian practitioners, as well as others. It is not necesary to go into the philosophy to benefit from Yoga.



> Yoga's basis is rooted in ancient Indian sciences which validates its utility and effectiveness


. 

Can you name one? And outline it? There is no scientific validation of Yoga, then or now.

It is fascinating to watch you cope with trying to use the word science in your own support, without any understanding of what science means, or what science stands for.



> 40 years ago, western experts used to ridicule Yoga as "tribal backwardness with no usefulness to daily human life". Today, same are admiring it because today's medical science approves its effectiveness for a healthy mind and body


. 

Forty years ago, in the 70s of the last century, Yoga was well accepted in Europe and in the USA. It had its opponents. They have their superstitious and regressive idiots, just like we have you.


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## Joe Shearer

> And as far as Vedic sciences are concerned, the word Yoga itself is a Sanskrit word and encompasses a vast discipline of meditation. As far as superstitions are concerned, then yes, Britishers used to refer Yoga as superstitous thing back in 19th century. They used to say, "who is this guy doing strange movements? Is he possessed?" In those times, europeans didn't know anything more than jumping on toes as excercise.



What is the connection between science and meditation? You don't have any idea about science, do you?

In those times, and in these times, those same people jumping on toes as exercise thrashed everybody else in sports, including athletics.

There were exceptions, squash being one. However, you are welcome to ask if Hashim Khan, or Jehangir Khan, or Jansher Khan, used Yoga. 

Neither did Dhyan Chand; as a fauji, he would have used PT a lot, a variation of jumping on your toes as exercise.



> And what is this rahu-kalaam? It seems you have some grudges towards some astrologer and you are taking your anger out on everyone by abusing their heritage.



It may come as a vast surprise to you, but I have no truck with astrologers or with superstitious practices like astrology. That is not part of our heritage; it is a piece of conmanship intended to dupe people and extract money from them.

I dislike astrology and astrologers in the same way that I despise cheats, forgers and pick-pockets.

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## Shaurya

Joe Shearer said:


> What is the connection between science and meditation? You don't have any idea about science, do you?
> 
> In those times, and in these times, those same people jumping on toes as exercise thrashed everybody else in sports, including athletics.
> 
> There were exceptions, squash being one. However, you are welcome to ask if Hashim Khan, or Jehangir Khan, or Jansher Khan, used Yoga.
> 
> Neither did Dhyan Chand; as a fauji, he would have used PT a lot, a variation of jumping on your toes as exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> It may come as a vast surprise to you, but I have no truck with astrologers or with superstitious practices like astrology. That is not part of our heritage; it is a piece of conmanship intended to dupe people and extract money from them.
> 
> I dislike astrology and astrologers in the same way that I despise cheats, forgers and pick-pockets.



hmmm... folks we have another mahatma here  learn as much about vedas and hinduism as you can... any more lessons guruji  As far as yogais concerned, it's a vedic invention, ifyou don't know about it, just shut up...

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## Angad_NSA

Joe Shearer said:


> As is evident from the experience of hundreds, even thousands of practitioners, Yoga *can be* practiced as an exercise system *with no reference to its philosophical ramifications*. This is true of Indian practitioners, as well as others. *It is not necesary* to go into the philosophy to benefit from Yoga.



That doesn't negate the fact that Yoga is product of Vedic branch of health science studies. you have implicitly admitted this by being insecure of admitting the connection. And as I said before, Yoga is sold as "excercise" because scientists don't want to tick off extremist Christians in West by exposing them to Sanskritic roots of Yoga. In fact, all literature on Yogic science is in Sanskrit, only recently translated to english and european languages. 



Joe Shearer said:


> Can you name one? And outline it? There is no scientific validation of Yoga, then or now.



Indians regard Yoga as a scientific practice. That's enough proof for the world. Why you need white men's signature on it? you are showing Colonial mentality. 

Similar mentality exists in our IAF and Indian army leadership, who needs Israeli stamp on Arjun MBT technology to ensure it works, otherwise they won't touch or even use it. Touch of white men is necessary it seems. Anything Indian is backward for them. 
. 


Joe Shearer said:


> Forty years ago, in the 70s of the last century, *Yoga was well accepted in Europe and in the USA. It had its opponents.* They have their superstitious and regressive idiots, just like we have you.



If they had rejected it, would you have rejected it too?


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## Joe Shearer

Shaurya said:


> hmmm... folks we have another mahatma here  learn as much about vedas and hinduism as you can... any more lessons guruji  As far as yogais concerned, it's a vedic invention, ifyou don't know about it, just shut up...



Since you have come late to the discussion, and apparently don't have a clue, Yoga appears not in the Vedas, but in the work of Patanjali. Further, the discussion was about the scientific value of Yoga, which the defender Angad_NSA was unable to prove, not being clear in his own mind about what science was. 

Yoga was not an invention, and it was not originally in the Vedas. I suggest you learn your basics, and then enter a discussion.


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## Joe Shearer

Angad_NSA said:


> That doesn't negate the fact that Yoga is product of Vedic branch of health science studies. you have implicitly admitted this by being insecure of admitting the connection. And as I said before, Yoga is sold as "excercise" because scientists don't want to tick off extremist Christians in West by exposing them to Sanskritic roots of Yoga. In fact, all literature on Yogic science is in Sanskrit, only recently translated to english and european languages.



Apart from frequent winks and nods, which seem to be adequate substitutes for facts and logic for you, you have not connected Yoga and health science studies anywhere. Nowhere was an implicit admission made; not mentioning a connection that does not exist does not admit that connection. 

The point about Yoga being sold as exercise is precisely that it has no organic link to science. Physics, for instance, a science, cannot be sold as a game, to obscure its origins. Physics, for instance, is entirely dependent on the scientific method, which you have failed to define, or even display a remote acquaintance with, in any of your posts. As a result, you are reduced to clutching at straws such as claiming that somebody's failure to mention a non-existent connection implies a connection. What moonshine!



> Indians regard Yoga as a scientific practice. That's enough proof for the world. Why you need white men's signature on it? you are showing Colonial mentality.



Ah, at last! "It is our faith, and needs no further proof", and of course the compulsory wink and nod. Back to Ayodhya, is it? No need for scientific proof; the fact that millions of Hindus who don't know how to spell science believe that it is science is sufficient. Still no signs of any comprehension of the scientific method.



> Similar mentality exists in our IAF and Indian army leadership, who needs Israeli stamp on Arjun MBT technology to ensure it works, otherwise they won't touch or even use it. Touch of white men is necessary it seems. Anything Indian is backward for them.



A rule of thumb: the weaker a discussion, the more the discussant resorts to smileys. It is a substitute for facts, and covers the awkward gaps. 

The Army and Air Force have nothing to do with Yoga being, or not being, a science, or based on science. Do not create smoke-screens to disguise your complete lack of arguments. And leave your Bharat-Rakshak whines in Bharat-Rakshak.



> If they had rejected it, would you have rejected it too?



If one smiley indicates a weak argument, what is two smileys? Right, it signifies an absence of argument. 

Just examine the sentence above.

The point made by Angad_NSA was that 



> 40 years ago, so-called "Scientists" used to mock Yoga as tribal science.



This was patently false, and that is what my answer indicated, that forty years ago, it was well-accepted. It being rejected by them is neither here nor there; that is not what Angad_NSA claimed. Having been contradicted flatly, and with nothing further to say, he pretends that the issue was something else.

Ignorant and a liar, to boot.


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## IndianArmy

Angad and Mr. Joe. It would perhaps be fair on my part to inform you both that Yoga is not what you both seem to see it as(Viola I added a 3rd dimension to it). Yoga is explicit by itself and I take immense pleasure and Pain at the same time to inform you that LCA Tejas does not use this feature and may I also advocate on behalf of myself and the crew here that you two have boarded a wrong thread for discussions such as these. Kindly discontinue.

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## sancho

Angad_NSA said:


> If you were in that team, you will celebrate it too. why you being hateful? you got rejected from IIT entrance?



It has nothing to do with hate, I simply don't have the attitude to celebrate every baby step of the development, because that only hides the other side of the problem. I celebrate when there is something to celebrate (IOC, FOC, set up of the first operational squad) and not for PR reasons. 
When we look at it with open eyes, we must ask why DRDO, ADA and co needed roughly 2 years (roll out of N-LCA in 2010), to get the same fighter without any changes up in the sky?

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## Shaurya

Joe Shearer said:


> Apart from frequent winks and nods, which seem to be adequate substitutes for facts and logic for you, you have not connected Yoga and health science studies anywhere. Nowhere was an implicit admission made; not mentioning a connection that does not exist does not admit that connection.
> 
> The point about Yoga being sold as exercise is precisely that it has no organic link to science. Physics, for instance, a science, cannot be sold as a game, to obscure its origins. Physics, for instance, is entirely dependent on the scientific method, which you have failed to define, or even display a remote acquaintance with, in any of your posts. As a result, you are reduced to clutching at straws such as claiming that somebody's failure to mention a non-existent connection implies a connection. What moonshine!
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, at last! "It is our faith, and needs no further proof", and of course the compulsory wink and nod. Back to Ayodhya, is it? No need for scientific proof; the fact that millions of Hindus who don't know how to spell science believe that it is science is sufficient. Still no signs of any comprehension of the scientific method.
> 
> 
> 
> A rule of thumb: the weaker a discussion, the more the discussant resorts to smileys. It is a substitute for facts, and covers the awkward gaps.
> 
> The Army and Air Force have nothing to do with Yoga being, or not being, a science, or based on science. Do not create smoke-screens to disguise your complete lack of arguments. And leave your Bharat-Rakshak whines in Bharat-Rakshak.
> 
> 
> 
> If one smiley indicates a weak argument, what is two smileys? Right, it signifies an absence of argument.
> 
> Just examine the sentence above.
> 
> The point made by Angad_NSA was that
> 
> 
> 
> This was patently false, and that is what my answer indicated, that forty years ago, it was well-accepted. It being rejected by them is neither here nor there; that is not what Angad_NSA claimed. Having been contradicted flatly, and with nothing further to say, he pretends that the issue was something else.
> 
> Ignorant and a liar, to boot.



look dude, hindus form the majority of people who are invlolved ins science, so your idotic stance of hindus dont have a clue type of argument is idiotic, and by that means there are many other unscientific things that are going on aren't there?? for example why do we use the B.C and A.D year timelines?? because it has ore to do with bible's fairytales than actual scientific evidence, moreover, yoga is a practice invented and USED by sanatan dharmics and their sages/gurus since generations, we don't need a white man's stamp to validate it, white man is no god or supreme entity nor he is impartial (these were the first to compare chimps with blacks and practice slavery, and yeah, remember who killed galileo?? yeah, your dear white men and their church)  as far as I know, atleast in hinduism different viewpoints have always been allowed as long as they don't offend the religion or any religious entity , the so-called "330 million gods" is only different perspective of different people of BRAHMA-VISHNU-MAHESH (Creator,preserver and destructor) infact buddhism and jainism (and sikhism) are also different perspective of the same religion... that's why you don't see hindus,sikhs,jains or buddhists weilding axes and destroying the homes of kaffirs like muslims or hristians who cannot tolerate any other religious group, because, different perspectives are not allowed and that's where this religion starts interfereing with human rights of both "insider" and "outsider" (kaffirs)



sancho said:


> It has nothing to do with hate, I simply don't have the attitude to celebrate every baby step of the development, because that only hides the other side of the problem. I celebrate when there is something to celebrate (IOC, FOC, set up of the first operational squad) and not for PR reasons.
> When we look at it with open eyes, we must ask why DRDO, ADA and co needed roughly 2 years (roll out of N-LCA in 2010), to get the same fighter without any changes up in the sky?



Sancho bhai, this news might cheer you up... 

LCA 'Tejas' to be inducted in Air Force this year: DRDO chief - The Economic Times



> Indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas' will be inducted into the Indian Air Force this year, DRDO chief V K Saraswat has said.
> 
> *"With 'Tejas' completing almost 1,855 flying hours (flight tests) and all problems it encountered during the initial operational clearance having been solved, it is ready to enter into the final operational clearance phase. With production also having taken off at HAL... we are now at the verge of writing history as far as aeronautics is concerned," he said here.* {almost 2000 flights and no failures }
> 
> "*LCA will be inducted this year in the armed forces where our own squadrons of Air Force will be flying this aircraft*," he said.
> 
> The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) director general was speaking after inaugurating the 'Aerospace Luminary Lecture Series' organised by Hyderabad chapter of Aeronautical Society of India last night.
> 
> Referring to the recent successful maiden flight of the Naval variant of LCA, Saraswat said, "The first flight trial of LCA Navy achieved capability, particularly on take off and landing, from an aircraft carrier. The Naval variant will certainly be a force multiplier for Indian Navy."
> 
> The LCA has been conceived and designed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Agency and manufactured at Bangalore- based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
> 
> Saraswat said April 2012 will go down in the history as a historic month as it saw successful launches of Agni-V, RISAT-I (radar imaging satellite) and first flight trial of LCA Navy.
> 
> India today has a potent long-range ballistic missile system, said Saraswat, who is also the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.
> 
> Nuclear capable Agni-V ballistic missile, with a strike range of over 5,000 km, was successfully test-fired on April 19.


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## Joe Shearer

Shaurya said:


> look dude, hindus form the majority of people who are invlolved ins science



So what? That still does not mean that a Hindu arguing on the subject is absolved from knowing the fundamentals of the scientific method. Do you know? That is the issue. Straight and simple. And it has nothing to do with white men or brown men.



> so your idotic stance of hindus dont have a clue type of argument is idiotic,



Excellent. Now that you have suggested that I am an idiot, can you, even now, explain what is the scientific method? Or will you, like your predecessor, Angad_NSA, evade the issue?



> and by that means there are many other unscientific things that are going on aren't there?? for example why do we use the B.C and A.D year timelines?? because it has ore to do with bible's fairytales than actual scientific evidence,



How is the selection of a calendar year connected with science?



> moreover, yoga is a practice invented and USED by sanatan dharmics and their sages/gurus since generations, we don't need a white man's stamp to validate it,



The question was not about validation. The question was about Yoga being a science. Stick to the argument and stop confusing yourself.



> white man is no god or supreme entity nor he is impartial (these were the first to compare chimps with blacks and practice slavery, and yeah, remember who killed galileo?? yeah, your dear white men and their church)  as far as I know, atleast in hinduism different viewpoints have always been allowed as long as they don't offend the religion or any religious entity , the so-called "330 million gods" is only different perspective of different people of BRAHMA-VISHNU-MAHESH (Creator,preserver and destructor) infact buddhism and jainism (and sikhism) are also different perspective of the same religion... that's why you don't see hindus,sikhs,jains or buddhists weilding axes and destroying the homes of kaffirs like muslims or hristians who cannot tolerate any other religious group, because, different perspectives are not allowed and that's where this religion starts interfereing with human rights of both "insider" and "outsider" (kaffirs)



And what does that rigmarole have to do with Yoga being a science?

You either know, or you don't. Adding long, lugubrious sections of the type above does nothing to prove that you know anything about the subject, it merely shows you sidestepping desperately to avoid having to give a precise answer.

At the end of the day, there is a precise, clear definition of what science is, of what the scientific method is. Yoga is a practice, a convention, a collection of philosophical speculations, matters that are not provable (or disprovable). Therefore those are not subject to the tests of science, they are not verifiable by the scientific method, and hence Yoga is not a science.

Check for yourself. Try not to let your super-abundant patriotism get in the way of your intellect.


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## karan.1970

Looks like a wrong thread got merged with the LCA thread..


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## k7x

Please dont discuss about Yoga, hinduism etc here. THis is LCA thread, . Please take your  outside using your PM.


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## sudhir007




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## sancho

Shaurya said:


> Sancho bhai, this news might cheer you up...



Partially yes, because I can't wait to see it inducted in IAF, but on the otherside I don't give too much about DRDO and ADA officials and their statements.


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## Bobby

sudhir007 said:


>



MK2 looks lot different than existing one


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## brahmastra

its rafale kinda design.


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## sudhir007

India

The naval prototype of Indias Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) made its first test flight on April 27. Already delayed by four years, the program still faces design concerns, including weight. Strengthening of the rear airframe for carrier operations, and the addition of an arrestor hook, has made the aircraft about 1,000 pounds overweight.

The naval variant of the LCA will require the F414 Enhanced Performance Engine [EPE] providing up to 26,500 pounds of thrust, a 20-percent boost, an Indian Navy official told AIN. General Electric and Boeing have proposed the EPE for future versions of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, with a new fan, compressor and turbine, but it is still in development. India has ordered 99 F414-INS6 engines to power Mk2 versions of the Tejas, but they are believed to offer the standard 22,000 pounds of thrust. The prototype and limited series production Tejas Mk1sincluding the naval prototypeare powered by GE F404-IN20 engines that produce 17,700 pounds. India ordered 41 of these after development problems with the indigenous Kaveri engine that was supposed to power the LCA.

Indian Defense Minister A.K. Anthony attributes delays to the naval LCA to technical complexities, non-availability of infrastructure and critical components and technology denial regimes, extended user trials and the failure of some of the components during testing. EADS has been providing technical assistance. The naval LCA schedule is supposed to align with construction of Indias first indigenous aircraft carrier, due to be completed in 2014*. To facilitate proving the aircraft for carrier operations, a shore-based test facility is being set up at Naval Air Station Goa replicating an aircraft carrier with a ski jump for launch and arresting gear for deck recovery. The takeoff area is ready, and completion of the landing area is scheduled for year-end. The cost of developing the naval LCA has escalated from the initially sanctioned $186 million to $336 million.*

Over the next decade the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to form six Tejas squadrons, four of them flying the Mk2 version. The first squadron is slated to deploy by July next year, to Sulur airbase in Tamil Nadu, but this date appears likely to slip to the end of next year. The preliminary design of the Mk2 powered by the F414 has been completed. The first flight is expected by 2014, around the time the Tejas Mk1 is declared fully operational. The IAF has said it will buy at least 83 Mk2s if the variant meets performance requirements.

Meanwhile, development of the Kaveri engine continues with Snecma, which has been providing technical assistance. The Kaveri is still considered an alternative engine for the LCA, and a spin-off version could power Indias proposed Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle. The ninth Kaveri engine prototype was integrated with an Il-76 testbed aircraft at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia last year.


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## satishkumarcsc

Bobby said:


> MK2 looks lot different than existing one



Thats the naval MK2. Read the tail fin markings.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1844 Test Flights successfully. (04-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-340,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,*LSP3-50*,LSP4-51,*LSP5-81*,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1842 Test Flights successfully. (04-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-340,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-51,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

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## sathya

*Tejas Heads to Goa for Weapons Trials*

Sources close to idrw.org have informed, that Tejas is all set to land in Goa to carry out weapons trails in next few days , another source close to idrw.org has mentioned that Indian air forces Il-76 aircraft with crew and technicians from Bangalore have already landed in Goa today (07/05/2012) in evening and aircrafts should be arriving soon .

Tejas after Goa trails will be heading to Pokhran, Jaisalmer, and back to chitradurga. To complete it weapons trials to achieve the IOC-2, Final LSP-8 is also ready and will be carrying out Taxi trials soon and first flight is expected in Next month of June.

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## rockstarIN

What IL-76 to do with LCA?

There are activities going on LCA project and unlike earlier, ADA is very close-lipped about it...


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> What IL-76 to do with LCA?
> 
> There are activities going on LCA project and unlike earlier, ADA is very close-lipped about it...





> Il-76 aircraft *with crew and technicians* from Bangalore have already *landed in Goa*



So they just transported them and possibly equipment/weapons, nothing else.

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## Chinese guy

Fighter is too expensive, the development time is too long


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## SamantK

Chinese guy said:


> Fighter is too expensive, the development time is too long


 Did you join this forum to post this?

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> what kind of weapon trial is this, and what r the difference from last 2 trial which held in goa



Better discuss it here in the right thread.

Just a guess, but Goa or to be more precises INS Hansa is the home base of INs Sea Harriers, that already has the Elta 2032 and Derby missiles integrated. So they might use the missiles from INs stock and will held missile relase and radar integration trials over the sea, not to mention that they could even test the launch of older Sea Eagle anti ship missiles, that the Harrier also has. Pokhran, Jaisalmer could be A2G weapon trials again with LGBs, targeting pod...

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## Nishan_101

Bobby said:


>


 Look the Missile is Aim-120



sancho said:


> It has nothing to do with hate, I simply don't have the attitude to celebrate every baby step of the development, because that only hides the other side of the problem. I celebrate when there is something to celebrate (IOC, FOC, set up of the first operational squad) and not for PR reasons.
> When we look at it with open eyes, we must ask why DRDO, ADA and co needed roughly 2 years (roll out of N-LCA in 2010), to get the same fighter without any changes up in the sky?


 
I think that It will be based on the current IN carrier as they are looking towards upgrading there curretn carrier.


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> Look the Missile is Aim-120
> 
> 
> 
> I think that It will be based on the current IN carrier as they are looking towards upgrading there curretn carrier.




No the N-LCA will not be deployed on the INS Viraat (current IN ACC) but the Vikramditya and IAC-1. This is because a realistic timeline for the induction of N-LCA is not until 2017/18 and by this time the INS VIRAAT will have been decommissioned. Additionally the Viraat is too small to house the N-LCA and it is set up as a V/STOL carrier not a STOBAR carrier (like the Vikramditya and IAC-1) which means it is not compatible with the N-LCA anyway.

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## Black Widow

Abingdonboy said:


> No the N-LCA will not be deployed on the INS Viraat (current IN ACC) but the Vikramditya and IAC-1. This is because a realistic timeline for the induction of N-LCA is not until 2017/18 and by this time the INS VIRAAT will have been decommissioned. Additionally the Viraat is too small to house the N-LCA and it is set up as a V/STOL carrier not a STOBAR carrier (like the Vikramditya and IAC-1) which means it is not compatible with the N-LCA anyway.



right Virat is STOVL (Short take of and verticle landing) configuration. While LCA can not land vertically. N-LCA will be (STOBAR) Short Take off and Asserted recovery Aircraft. So Virat is out of question. Vikadi and Vikrant I is where LCA will be hosed in hi-low Mix with MiG29K... Correct me If I am wrong. 

IAC II is assumed to be CATOBAR (Catapult Take off but asserted recovery), I think N-AMCA and N-MMRCA will be CATOBAR configuration. But still "Dilli door hai" .


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## Water Car Engineer

*Naval Tejas Trainer *

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## Water Car Engineer

*Naval Tejas Trainer *

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## Water Car Engineer

*Naval Tejas Trainer *

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## Bl[i]tZ

By the way, LSP 8 is to fly in June. This is the last of the 8 of the Limited Series Production. Both LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be given to the Air Force for user evaluation trials (UET).

Once IAF is satisfied, HAL will start the production of SP -1 to SP -40 will start. 

HAL Tejas - Variants Prototypes


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## conan008

any information about this type?


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## hawx

why landing gear is out in the middle of the air ?


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## faithfulguy

I was going to point out that this look like a trainer. And it is.


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## Luftwaffe

faithfulguy said:


> I was going to point out that this look like a trainer. And it is.



Restrictive Platform.


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## Black Widow

hawx said:


> why landing gear is out in the middle of the air ?




The First test flight of any fighter happen in this way only. No one wants to take the risk..



faithfulguy said:


> I was going to point out that this look like a trainer. And it is.



Yes It is dual seat trainer variant for Navy. It will see new engine soon. Testing from INS hansa is due. .


* MY suggestion is to post the same pics in LCA sticky thread that way , we can access the pics anytime..*

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## Nishan_101

I think then Rafael M and may be Rafael N if produce will be on IN list?


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## rishisankaran

Black Widow said:


> The First test flight of any fighter happen in this way only. No one wants to take the risk..


While I agree with your point with regards to the Naval Tejas, but why does the AF tejas in the same pic has its landing gear down. That seems strange and interesting considering that AF tejas have been tested umpteen number of times and its not its first flight but accompanying the naval tejas as a chase aircraft. 

Can somebody care to explain ??


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## karan.1970

rishisankaran said:


> While I agree with your point with regards to the Naval Tejas, but why does the AF tejas in the same pic has its landing gear down. That seems strange and interesting considering that AF tejas have been tested umpteen number of times and its not its first flight but accompanying the naval tejas as a chase aircraft.
> 
> Can somebody care to explain ??



The photographs may have been taken during their landing run....


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## sudhir007

You may also join though facebook

Tejas - LCA | Facebook

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## heartrocker22

rishisankaran said:


> While I agree with your point with regards to the Naval Tejas, but why does the AF tejas in the same pic has its landing gear down. That seems strange and interesting considering that AF tejas have been tested umpteen number of times and its not its first flight but accompanying the naval tejas as a chase aircraft.
> 
> *Can somebody care to explain ??*



it must be wet probably drying it up in mid air


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## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> I think then Rafael M and may be Rafael N if produce will be on IN list?



Rafale M is on the list, that's why Dassault already got an RFI from IN about it, just like it was sent to Mikoyan (Mig 29K), Boeing (F18SH), LM (F35C) and EADS (Sea Typhoon), Saab later asked to join too and sent infos about Sea Gripen.

That's why N-LCA plays no role for IAC 2, but only for INS Vikramaditya and IAC 1 although a minor role.


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> I think then Rafael M and may be Rafael N if produce will be on IN list?



Almost certainly as time passes it seems almost certain that IAC-2 will be CATOBAR (most likely with EMALS) configured and as such, as per IN's RFI, the possible fighter contenders to fly off this ACC are the F-18 E/F, F-35C, Rafale-M and (supposedly) SeaGripen.


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## SQ8

The Naval LCA however.. is still staying I guess...albiet in the Mk2 version??

P.S ..cant wait to get my hands on this baby for my sim .

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## SamantK

Oscar said:


> The Naval LCA however.. is still staying I guess...albiet in the Mk2 version??
> 
> P.S ..cant wait to get my hands on this baby. For my sim..



Maybe then we can see whether F-22 is better than LCA or not


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## sudhir007

tkstales.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/the-tejas-debate-continues/

The Tejas debate continues at a furious rate. I would attempt to respond to Vina who has been a persistent critic.

Vina&#8217;s first point was a personal opinion:

I do feel that the govt&#8217;s decision of getting the IAF out of the airframe business was correct. It is too specialized a field and requires a whole different set of skills than what a force trained for fighting would possess , unless the IAF too like the Navy goes and recruits Naval Architects, either builds a specialized cadre staffed with trained Aerospace engineers hired from outside and/or trained in IAF technical schools ,even if it is restricted to purely design , concept studies and architecture and not goes into actual building (which will require an even wider set of skills in manufacturing, sales,supply chain etc).

I agree with his view fully. No need to debate that. However, his next points are a mixed bag that need to be analyzed.

When the decision was made, what actually prevented the IAF from putting up money and sponsoring critical projects in these areas in HAL, NAL, DRDO labs and Academia like IITs an IISc ? I don&#8217;t recall a SINGLE such significant project in all these years&#8230;&#8230;..

&#8230;..to have a 100crore project for investing in composites , avionics and sharply focused FBW project , even if you had no separate R&D budget . That kind of money would have gone an incredibly long way in the 70s and 80s when a 4 figure salary was rare. Who had that kind of strategic vision back then. Can the IAF do it even today ? I don&#8217;t think so. So really, with the Govt not putting up the money (they obviously wont put up the money without seeing an application and not fund R&D purely on stand alone) for that sort of thing, it simply fell between the cracks and did not get done at all, 

Here you are imagining a situation where (some time in the late 70&#8242;s) the chief of the air staff gets on to the SA to RM and tells him, &#8212;-&#8217;Mr xxxxxx, here is a perfectly serviceable Gnat/Hunter/Mystere/Marut. Please take it. I believe the Americans are trying to learn how to control an unstable flying platform. I want you to replicate it. I will fund the costs you incur. I need to learn how to design FBW for unstable platforms.&#8217; &#8212;- &#8216; and bye the way, here is another Rupees 50 Crores. Please get NAL to tinker with the concept of using composites for aircraft structures. I have a dream of making a 4th generation fighter for the air force. It will be great if he can help me with that knowledge when I get to the point of designing that aircraft.&#8217;

Such a scenario could not come about in India in that time frame; not even if the CAS swore on his testimonial to the MOD that he would make do with 5 aircraft less when the next Mig21, 23, 27 and Jaguar were to be procured! The CAS would be powerless even if he knew that one Vina will pillory him for his abject absence of Vision in years to come.
Let me now exit from the theater of the absurd and examine what exactly happened to the LCA project and reduce that to a language of the common man.

- Some time in the late sixties, the air force realized that to perform its allotted task, it would need three or four squadrons worth of deep strike aircraft. The Government had taken a decision not to pay for the development of the Orpheus 10 by Rolls Royce. In the absence of a suitable engine the Marut could not be developed to its full potential. A new air craft therefore needed to be purchased from abroad. This need, and the logic there of were written down and presented to the Government.For the next seven or eight years there was nothing beyond a &#8216;proposal&#8217; pending with the government.

- The previous two tech upgrade of the Air Force had taken place in 1958-59 (Mystere/Hunter/Canberra/Gnat/Marut) to 1962 (MiG21/Su-7,AN12,IL14,MI4) . It was realized that a major re-equipment cycle would be due in the nineties. The Air Force therefore began talking to HAL in the middle seventies for the need of a modern fighter. It was clearly an air force project for a new induction in the making.

- Initial proposals were prepared by the HAL Design Bureau. In the early eighties Dr Arunachalam appeared on the scene as the SA to RM. He decided to use this opportunity to upgrade the capabilities of the entire aviation industry and jump into 4th generation technologies. To him, it was clearly a DRDO project with a focus on breaking new frontiers; a laudable aim, but clearly at a variance with the air force&#8217;s project goals.

- It must be understood that the air force had no quarrels with the ambitious goals of the DRDO project. It was however unable to reconcile its own re-equipment needs with the inevitable trajectory of the very ambitious DRDO goals. A compromise had to be reached.

- I do not know if there is a written document recording the compromised understanding for the situation. However, it appears that it was agreed that

Air Force funds will not be used for the development project as the AF will need its allotted money for import of weapons. Air Force will however pledge funds for acquisition of the proposed aircraft when the project reaches the stage of manufacture.

Air Force will provide necessary manpower for flight testing and other requirements as requested by the DRDO

DRDO will be fully in charge of the project.

-To assert its full control over the project, the DRDO created a new design authority entity as the ADA and cut off the HAL design bureau from the loop. A little later, a National Flight Test Centre was created and the ASTE/Flight Test group of the HAL were excluded. These actions generated some interpersonal irritations.

-Dr Velluri became the head of ADA. He wanted some one younger than Dr Raj Mahindra to head the design effort. Dr RM departed. Dr Velluri too did not last very long. He resigned. Dr KH became the head of design. The post of DGADA that Dr V vacated remained unfilled and was held by the SA to RM as an additional charge.

-To set the ball rolling, the AirHQ issued an ASR in 1985. By now the Air Force was reconciled to the Idea that the LCA will primarily be an R&D project under the DRDO. Therefore, the ASR reflected all the desires expressed by the scientific community; an unstable platform controlled by FBW technique, an airframe largely built of composites, a glass cockpit, a multi mode radar, an indigenous engine with FADEC, indigenous ECM/ECCM/electronics/weapons/missiles &#8211; the works. The ultimate product had to be an aircraft that could be used by the Air Force. Therefore the ASR projected an aircraft that would do everything that a MiG 21 could do, albeit do it a little better.

-The DRDO was still confident of doing the job in a decade. The Air Force was a little more pragmatic. They would have been happy to introduce the aircraft by 2000.

-The GOI provided seed money and accepted the plan for building five prototypes. The project definition phase started, and lasted till 1989. The project Definition Document frightened the IAF. AVM Krishnaswami wrote a critique pointing out the likely pitfalls and suggested that two technology demonstrators be built before building the prototypes for testing the real aircraft.

-There was then a lull for four years.

&#8212;There was rapid changes in the Government
&#8212;International oil prices rose dramatically
&#8212;The GOI was in a financial crisis
&#8212;Dr VSA retired and migrated to the USA and was replaced by Dr.APJA as SA to RM
&#8212;Dr APJA accepted Khicha&#8217;s critique.

-In 1993 funding was received for two TDs and work began for actual construction.

-In real life at the working level there were a lot of exchanges of ideas through out this period between air force and and R&D people. In general, the doubts raised by Khicha continued to disturb the air force. As days and months rolled by, it became clear that the Kavery will not be ready in time for integration with the prototypes. In any case, most people felt it unwise to mate a brand new engine to a single engined aircraft under development. No effort to find a test bed for the Kavery was visible. Strangely, the ADA seemed quite open to the idea of mating the Kavery to one of the PVs for its development flights. The cry from the air force was to separate the two projects went unheeded for a long time.

-The story was the same for the MMR. It was clear that the time lines for the two projects were not matching. Yet, no corrective activity was visible.

-Apprehensions about the FBW were high. The air force preferred a more conservative approach of a hybrid system with French collaboration wile the DRDO opted for a more daring quad digital path with American help. The French entities walked out of the collaborative arrangements. They had been enthusiastic supporter of the LCA till then.

-In the meanwhile, many of the subsidiary developments for the LCA project were becoming reality. Thus, when the Air Force started importing the Su 30 MK from Russia in 1996, it negotiated for the incorporation of all DRDO developed stuff available at that point of time (along with some French and Israeli stuff) into it. The very fruitful MKI concept was born.

-Pokhran II in 1998 created a new situation. All American help stopped. The FBW now had to be completed entirely on our own. Did it delay the project significantly? I can only quote Air Marshal Rajkumar from page 100 of his book

Now that the sanctions had been imposed, no interaction between the teams was possible, and I feared the worst. I could not have been more wrong in my assessment because the pace of FCS development actually picked up. Adversity had proved to be a great tonic.

The other factoids gleaned from the same book tells me that other hardware/software problems delayed the first flight of the TD 1 after the FCS had been installed. So, american withdrawal of help did not affect the time line for the FCS per se. Yes, the withdrawal of help made maintenance of the GE 404 engines more challenging, but we managed. And also, the withdrawal of american support forced us to develop some of the critical components indigenously. All for the good I think. The TD 1 flew in Jan 2001. It was a big achievement.

It has become fashionable in the cyber space to diss the Air Force for its &#8216;lack of support&#8217; for the LCA project and for giving it a &#8216;step-motherly&#8217; treatment. I find this tarring entirely strange and totally unjustified. From the conceptual stage, the Air Force has been supportive of the project. Even though the project had ceased to be a &#8216;Air Force Project&#8217; from an early date, the Air Force has never held back its professional advice on aims goals and on project management. It has continuously supplied the project with trained manpower and with materials and aircraft whenever necessary. It has mede two Mirage 2000 aircraft available to the project. Practical professional advice have been offered at the level of CAS (eg. rumbler strip method of garbage cleaning from TD-1 as mentioned in Air Marshal Rajkumar&#8217;s book). ACM Tipnis has gone to the extent of flying personally in the chase aircraft for the first flight of the TD1. Cyber Warriors and worriers still think the IAF is not concerned!

As a matter of fact, the Air Force must be concerned about the LCA project on a number of counts. Firstly, the Air Force must be concerned about the proclivity of the DRDO on the under-assessment of tasks to be done. Let me pull out two instances from Air Marshal Rajkumar&#8217;s book. First; on assuming office in 1995, the Air Marshal&#8217;s professional assessment was that the TD1 was about five years away from its first flight. At the same time, the DRDO was confident that the first flight will take place &#8216;next year&#8217;. In actual fact, the first flight took place six years later. This sort of erroneous forecast makes forward planning difficult for the Air Force. Second; the TD1 airframe was rolled out prematurely for a function by the Prime Minister. There was really no technical reason for going through this drill at that particular time. Later, the airframe had to be pulled back, stripped and reassembled. It took about eighteen months and added substantially to the timeline for the first flight. Thus the Air Force gets concerned when not technical influences are permitted to intrude into a highly technical plan of action.

There are other concerns for the Air Force. In the cyber world there seems to be an impression that as soon as the new air craft type is sanctioned Initial Operational Clearance and ordinary Air Force Pilots are allowed to fly the aircraft, the the new type becomes an asset for the air force. In real life it is not so. From our past experience we know that about four or five years are necessary for a fleet to stabilize and become a useable weapon system. The Marut and the Gnat entered service around 1959 but could become useable assets on by 1963/64. The Mig 21 entered Service in 62/63 but became a weapon system only in 1967/68. The air force needs this time to generate stocking level, supply chain. maintenance procedures, and to generate the core body of technical and tactical knowledge and experience. For this purpose, the air force needs to possess sufficient number of serviceable aircraft that can be operated intensively for a sustained period. Not a single series production Tejas aircraft has come out yet. It appears that the target rate of production would be about eight aircraft per year. That would make it 2015 before the air force commences intensive flying and about 2017 till it becomes a weapon system. After the first two squadrons are formed, a new Mk2 version of the airplane will make an appearance. It is not known how long that will take to go through all the steps and stabilize. The introduction of the MMRCA fleet will coincide with this time frame. The Air Force will be stretched. The Air Force is thus anxious.

As I have said in my earlier post, this debate is now infructuous. Switching our attention to the tasks ahead would be more fruitful. However, before I close this debate, I would like to take up the question of &#8216;dropped balls&#8217; mentioned by a number of posters, mentioning the HPT 32 specifically. This aircraft was designed and built by HAL on a demand by the Air Force. The performance did not fully satisfy the Air force, but the Air Force accepted it. Over time, many problems cropped up in operating the Aircraft, engine failure during aerobatic training being a main problem. The engine was an established reliable international item. The failure was assumed to be a aircraft design defect related to fuel supply plumbing. HAL could not put it right but also did not accept design defect as the cause. The Air Force had to abandon the use of the fleet of aircraft. In the early 1980s, the HAL had produced a turbine engined version of the aircraft called HTT34. It never entered air force service. It is being insinuated that it is all the fault of the air force. I wish to place a poser for the critics. The HTT34 was produced when Air Marshal LM Katre was the chairman of HAL. LMK was actually the driving force behind the development of the HTT34. It was his desire and his drive that made the aircraft fly. From HAL the Air Marshal went on to become the Chief of Air Staff. Yet, the HTT34 did not enter service with the Air Force. Does any one know why?

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## Storm Force

Sundhir 

Your comment


> It is not known how long that will take to go through all the steps and stabilize. The introduction of the MMRCA fleet will coincide with this time frame. The Air Force will be stretched. The Air Force is thus anxious.



Do you mean stretched AS NOT ENOUGH servicable combat aircrfaft as the MIGs are retired

OR 

Do you mean the License production and ENTRY OF two new platforms at the same time WILL BE TOO MUCH FOR IAF to handle


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## alimobin memon

What is the Radar of LCA tejas for present and describe it's radar capability. Thanks in Advance


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## rockstarIN

alimobin memon said:


> What is the Radar of LCA tejas for present and describe it's radar capability. Thanks in Advance



Upgraded version of Elta/2032



> The EL/M-2032 is an advanced Multimode Airborne Fire Control Radar designed for multimission fighters, oriented for both air-to-air and strike missions. Modular hardware design, software control and flexible avionic interfaces ensure that the radar can be installed in fighter aircraft (such as F-16, F-5, Mirage, F-4, Mig 21, etc.) and can be customized to meet specific user requirements. The EL/M-2032 radar integrates ELTA's experience with real operational feedback from Israeli Air Force combat pilots. [1]
> 
> The EL/M-2032 greatly enhances the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea capabilities of the aircraft. In the Air-to-Air modes, the radar enables long-range target detection and tracking for weapon delivery or automatic target acquisition in close combat engagements.[1]
> 
> In Air-to-Ground missions, the radar provides very high-resolution mapping (SAR), surface target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging. In Air-to-Sea missions the radar provides long range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities (RS, ISAR)





> The advanced pulse Doppler, multimode FCR can detect and track manoeuvring targets while employing advanced techniques *to lock on the target* in close combat engagements *of up to 150km*.





> While in *air-to-sea operation mode,* the FCR offers long-range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities* at a ranges of up to 300km*.



http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsiai-to-deliver-elm-2032-fcr-to-undisclosed-customer/

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## Jason bourne

Six Tejas Squadrons By 2022 


The Ministry of Defence informed Parliament today that six squadrons of the LCA would be inducted by 2022 -- the end of the 13th plan period. Full text of what was said:

"There has been delay in the manufacturing of indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. This is a design and development project and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the nodal organization for the development of Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-1) for the Tejas has been achieved on the 10th January, 2011. Presently, LCA development activities leading to final operational clearance are in progress. The deliveries of aircraft are scheduled in the 12th plan period. It is planned to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of 13th Plan."

The Indo-Russian multirole transport aircraft (MTA) also came up in Parliament today. The Defence Minister said, "The review of the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) programme by the Government is an ongoing process. After signing of the Inter-Governmental Agreement in November, 2007 for Design, Development and Production of MTA, Government's approval was conveyed for signing the Share Holders Agreement between HAL and Russian partners on 30th August, 2010. The same was signed on 9th September, 2010. The Memorandum of Association and Articles of Association was signed on 25th November, 2010. For implementing the "" 'programme a Joint Venture company has been incorporated between Indian and Russian partners on 50:50 funding basis in December, 2010. The investment for the programme has been worked out to be $771-million at 2012 Price Level. The CEO of the joint venture has also since been appointed for implementation of the programme."



livefist

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## Abingdonboy

130-150 a/c in <10 years is an achievable figure but only if HAL seriously pulls their finger out on the production front. With MMRCA, Hawk, MKI/MKI UPG, M2K UPG, Mig-29UPG, LCA, FGFA and MRTA all having to built in India by themselves in the coming years HAL have got some serious work to be getting in with. Good luck!!

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> 130-150 a/c in <10 years is an achievable figure



Actually 6 x LCA squads is a total of 120 fighters only and would be surprising too, since the initial requirement was 7 x squads if I'm not wrong. And 10 x fighters per year next to MKI, LCA and FGFA is not much, but sounds reasonable.


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## rockstarIN

I'm sure we can export some LCAs as well.

At least some SU-30 operators will be interested in it...along with our Heavier+light weight low RCS doctrine..!!


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## SamantK

sancho said:


> Actually 6 x LCA squads is a total of 120 fighters only and would be surprising too, since the initial requirement was 7 x squads if I'm not wrong. And 10 x fighters per year next to MKI, LCA and FGFA is not much, but sounds reasonable.


 Guys 6 squadrons would mean 108, 18 per squadron.. AFAIK..


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Actually 6 x LCA squads is a total of 120 fighters only and would be surprising too, since the initial requirement was 7 x squads if I'm not wrong. And 10 x fighters per year next to MKI, LCA and FGFA is not much, but sounds reasonable.



I they also count 2 sqd. of MK-1 + 4 sqd. Mk-2 which may achievable


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## sudhir007

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: TOP GUN: National honour for Tejas Test pilot Suneet






Grp Capt Suneet Krishna, a city-based Test pilot associated with the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme has been selected for this year's Dr V M Ghatage Award. This annual award &#8211; tipped as a prestigious one among the flying clan &#8211; is being given away by the Aeronautical Society of India (AeSI), New Delhi.
Suneet, currently working with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), is a seasoned Indian Air Force (IAF) Test pilot. According to sources in ADA, Suneet was posted to the Tejas programme in 2000. &#8220;He flew the chase aircraft when LCA first took to the skies in January 2001,&#8221; ADA sources said.
AeSI chose Suneet ahead of others for the award for his long-standing contribution to the Tejas programme. &#8220;Suneet has many milestones to his credit, including the first LCA Test pilot to cross 100 hours on various Tejas platforms. He is also among those who have logged maximum number of flying hours on Tejas,&#8221; ADA sources said. Suneet will receive the award during the AeSI annual general meeting scheduled to be held at Thiruvananthapuram on June 1.
On deputation from the IAF to the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) of ADA till recently, sources say that Suneet is now part of ADA as a permanent Test pilot. &#8220;The AeSI award is a testimony to Suneet's tireless efforts in making Tejas a world-class flying machine. As a Test pilot, Suneet along with other team members have given many valuable inputs to make Tejas a completely pilot-friendly fighter. He has contributed in bringing out many modifications to the Tejas' cockpit over the years,&#8221; ADA chief P.S. Subramanyam told City Express.
According to AeSI officlas, Suneet was commissioned into the IAF as a fighter pilot in 1989. &#8220;He is a qualified pilot attack instructor and completed the Experimental Test Pilots course in 1999, and thereafter has continued to be directly associated with flight test activities as a Test pilot till date. He has had several tenures in various organizations carrying out flight test duties,&#8221; sources said.
*With over 4500 hours of flying on of 35 types of aircraft, AeSI sources say that Suneet has the unique distinction of carrying out two first flights of Tejas fighter. &#8220;The award is to acknowledge his deep involvement in the flight research and development program, testing the prototype digital flight control system hardware and software.* Suneet's skill and experience contributed across the realm of fixed wing flight test activities carried out in the country, covering all aspects of prototype, production and operational flight test,&#8221; sources said.

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## sancho

samantk said:


> Guys 6 squadrons would mean 108, 18 per squadron.. AFAIK..



Tejas squads include 20 fighters each, that's why the first ordered 2 x MK1 squads include 40 x fighters.



sudhir007 said:


> I they also count 2 sqd. of MK-1 + 4 sqd. Mk-2 which may achievable



Yes, disappointing but achievable, maybe some more might be added with Kaveri K10 after that too, because by 2022 the engine is planned to replace GE 404 IN of the MK1s.


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Tejas squads include 20 fighters each, that's why the first ordered 2 x MK1 squads include 40 x fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, disappointing but achievable, maybe some more might be added with Kaveri K10 after that too, because by 2022 the engine is planned to replace GE 404 IN of the MK1s.



Hi sancho
can you tell me is kaveri is worth-full for lca coze IAF already want higher thrust engine like ge-414 which have around 98kn thrust and the detail which come sometime that k-9 (co-develop by India and France) has 90kn thrust which is low then ge-414. did IAF accept this engine for future replacement (MK-3) which is lower then (Mk-2).
for my point of view is only fulfill the requirement of AMCA but not LCA


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Hi sancho
> can you tell me is kaveri is worth-full for lca coze IAF already want higher thrust engine like ge-414 which have around 98kn thrust and the detail which come sometime that k-9 (co-develop by India and France) has 90kn thrust which is low then ge-414. did IAF accept this engine for future replacement (MK-3) which is lower then (Mk-2).
> for my point of view is only fulfill the requirement of AMCA but not LCA



When you compare thrust, you always have to differ between dry and AB thrust and has to keep the weight in mind too!
GE 414 has 98kN AB thrust, but fighters generally fly with dry thrust and in this field Kaveri K10 should be way closer if not equal. For example, Eurofighters EJ 200 engine also offers "only" 90kN AB thust, but 60kN dry, while the GE 414 offers around 62kN dry but with around 100Kg more weight. That means, the EJ 200 offers a better dry thrust to weight ratio than the GE engine!
Snecmas M88-3, which will provide the base for the Kaveri K10 also offers 90kN AB thrust, while the dry thrust should be around 60kN as well, the important point will be, how far they can reduce the weight since Kaveri K9 is estimated at around 1100Kg, while the French engine could come at 1000Kg or even less. So if they can reduce the weight, while adding more thrust it is more than worth it to use Kaveri K10 on LCA and on AMCA, especially if the reports of joint TVC developments with French companies are true as well. LCA MK2 with Kaveri K10 and TVC would be a dream and I would even prefer additional of them, than additional Rafales!

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## kaykay

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2012/05/gaffes-plenty-
on-lca-tejas.html
thats the true colour of UPA government....shame on them.


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## Nishan_101

90 Jas-39s are better to be in IAF till 2018.

Along with the 40 possible EF-2000s till 2015


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## arp2041

I saw wikipedia & got to know that unit cost of a JF-17 is around $20 million, unit cost of F-16 comes out to be $26-28million whereas unit cost of LCA tejas is $31 million, can someone explain why it's cost is more than F-16, is it better than F-16 (which i highly doubt).


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## &#347;&#363;nya_0_Zero

arp2041 said:


> I saw wikipedia & got to know that unit cost of a JF-17 is around $20 million, unit cost of F-16 comes out to be $26-28million whereas unit cost of LCA tejas is $31 million, can someone explain why it's cost is more than F-16, is it better than F-16 (which i highly doubt).



Depends on what version of F-16 you are talking about. 

F-16 participated in India's MMRCA competition; it was F-16 Block E/F and cost between $ 60-70 million.

The cheapest F-16s price that you are citing, if most likely for second hand ones, with about a decade or less of life left in them.


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> I saw wikipedia & got to know that unit cost of a JF-17 is around $20 million, unit cost of F-16 comes out to be $26-28million whereas unit cost of LCA tejas is $31 million, can someone explain why it's cost is more than F-16, is it better than F-16 (which i highly doubt).



The cost will be reduced through high production rates and the F16 was produced very often.


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## ziaulislam

wiki has outdated sources plus. the price is flyaway cost not including R&D

LCA cost has esscalated due to highly expenisve things.
1. its radar
2. its engine.
initially both were suppose to be indigenous but they arent now.
e.g
engine costs nearly 9 million where as RD-93 costs less than 2 million


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## SamantK

ziaulislam said:


> wiki has outdated sources plus. the price is flyaway cost not including R&D
> 
> LCA cost has esscalated due to highly expenisve things.
> 1. its radar
> 2. its engine.
> initially both were suppose to be indigenous but they arent now.
> e.g
> engine costs nearly 9 million where as RD-93 costs less than 2 million


 So please tell us what do you think is the cost..


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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> engine costs nearly 9 million where as RD-93 costs less than 2 million



Not really, because the GE 414 for MK2 comes at $8 millions, the current GE 404 for the MK1 are way cheaper. The initial plan of $20 millions each might not be reached, but MK1 will still not be expensive for such a 4th gen fighter. For MK2 we have to see what the final specs will be, to see how much more it will cost. Btw, RD93 is cheaper in the procurement, because it has such a low life and needs to replaced more often than a western engine.


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Not really, because the GE 414 for MK2 comes at $8 millions, the current GE 404 for the MK1 are way cheaper. The initial plan of $20 millions each might not be reached, but MK1 will still not be expensive for such a 4th gen fighter. For MK2 we have to see what the final specs will be, to see how much more it will cost. Btw, RD93 is cheaper in the procurement, because it has such a low life and needs to replaced more often than a western engine.



I think I read somewhere that the RD 33MK seres engines have extended lifetimes compared to the earlier versions, so with that price tag mentioned by the above poster is still a bang for the buck IMHO.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> I think I read somewhere that the RD 33MK seres engines have extended lifetimes compared to the earlier versions, so with that price tag mentioned by the above poster is still a bang for the buck IMHO.



RD93 is a version of the RD33-3 series that IAF Mig 29UPG now will get, the MK is used only in Mig 29K so far and even though they have been improved, they are not at a similar level as western engines. That's one reason why we looked only at western engines for LCA and western partners for Kaveri.


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## Vritra

satishkumarcsc said:


> I think I read somewhere that the RD 33MK seres engines have extended lifetimes compared to the earlier versions, so with that price tag mentioned by the above poster is still a bang for the buck IMHO.



RD-93s are modified from the baseline RD-33, not the RD-33MK. The RD-33MK is more fuel efficient, contains a larger grade of composites, has a new FADEC unit, and a longer life, like you pointed out. It is also more expensive than the baseline RD-33 or the RD-93: Not to the same level as the F414, but still.


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## Windjammer

*UPA's major goof up: Tejas inducted*

NEW DELHI: First, it was the NDA regime which was in a hurry to christen it 'Tejas' , with the then PM, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, doing the honours in 2003. Now, it's the UPA II government's turn to declare that the indigenous fighter has already been "inducted'' . 

In a major goof-up , the 'Report to the People' released by PM Manmohan Singh on Tuesday evening to mark UPA II's third anniversary in office lists the "induction of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas into IAF'' as a "major milestone'' in the defence arena. 
*
Competitive politics apart, the simple fact is that Tejas is still at least two years away from becoming fully operational despite being almost three decades in the making after first being sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore. *

The entire development cost of the Tejas project, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the failed Kaveri engine, in fact, has now zoomed to Rs 17,269 crore. With each Tejas to cost an additional Rs 200 crore, India will end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme. 

It's critical that India has its own home-grown fighter jet but the continuing hyperbole over the single-engined Tejas leaves IAF and others bewildered . On January 10, 2011, for instance, the Aeronautical Development Agency, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Defence Research and Development Organisation had all got together to loudly proclaim 
that Tejas had got initial operational clearance (IOC) at the hands of defence minister A K Antony. 
*
But it became clear later that Tejas had only achieved partial IOC. It would have to be followed by IOC-II to certify the fighter was fully airworthy. Moreover, it would require the final operational clearance (FOC), with integration of all weapons and other systems, before it could be deemed combat-worthy . HAL and DRDO have set a December 2012 deadline for the FOC. But, sources say, Tejas will be ready for induction only towards mid-2013 at the earliest. Consequently, the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets is likely to begin only in 2014, with the first two squadrons up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu ) by 2015 or so. *

IAF, in fact, feels Tejas is not even a fourth-generation fighter at present. The planned six squadrons of Tejas will initially serve just to arrest the sharp fall in the number of IAF fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets), which is down to just 33 at present. 

_The number of squadrons will further fall to 31 over the next three to four years with phasing out of the aging MiG variants, further impacting IAF's combat capabilities, before it slowly begins to pick up with new inductions. Projections show IAF will have the required 45 squadrons only by 2032._

UPA's major goof up: Tejas inducted - Economic Times

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## SamantK

Old news... we know how cheap our govt is


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## Windjammer

samantk said:


> *Old news*... we know how cheap our govt is



UPA's major goof up: Tejas inducted
Rajat Pandit, TNN *May 24, 2012,* 05.08AM IST


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## SamantK

Windjammer said:


> UPA's major goof up: Tejas inducted
> Rajat Pandit, TNN *May 24, 2012,* 05.08AM IST


 Four days is quite some time and this has already been discussed in some threads, if u want ill post u the links..


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1864Test Flights successfully. (28-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-347*,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,*LSP3-52,LSP4-55,LSP5-86,LSP7-3,NP1-2*)


from
LCA-Tejas has completed 1852 Test Flights successfully. (16-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-343,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-51,LSP4-54,LSP5-82,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

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## KRAIT

^ Test flights ka kya koi record banaoge....


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## SamantK

KRAIT said:


> ^ Test flights ka kya koi record banaoge....


 Actually the update news dried for some time possible that the person who updates the status went on a vacation 

@sudhir007 thanks for the update mate!

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1868 Test Flights successfully. (31-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-208,PV5-36,LSP3-53,LSP4-56,*LSP5-87*,LSP7-3,NP1-2)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1867 Test Flights successfully. (31-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-208,PV5-36,LSP3-53,LSP4-56,LSP5-86,LSP7-3,NP1-2)


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## SpArK



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## SpArK

Lots of information on whats in store.

Major RCS reduction initiatives, interal weapons bay,plasma field.. etc..


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## marcos98



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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Lots of information on whats in store.
> 
> Major RCS reduction initiatives, *interal weapons bay*,plasma field.. etc..



Not going to happen, because there is hardly any space to build it, stealthy shaped external weapon pods are more likely.


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## Hulk

SpArK said:


> Lots of information on whats in store.
> 
> Major RCS reduction initiatives, *interal weapons bay*,plasma field.. etc..



Wake up and get real.


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## Black Widow

SpArK said:


> Lots of information on whats in store.
> 
> Major RCS reduction initiatives, interal weapons bay,plasma field.. etc..





I don't know How much can be achieved on Tejas But one thing I am sure

For all thing mention here, Tejas will be testBed. I think ADA should make a new team which will test new components and technologies on LCA Tejas. I heard somewhere that LCA PV3 will be used as testbed for AEW role fighter and one of the PV will be use as testBed for testing Kaveri or GE414 engine.


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## SQ8

Black Widow said:


> *testbed for AEW role fighte*



Very unlikely..
considering the Tejas's size ,range.. and limited space..
Its the complete antithesis for any AEW role aircraft.
The MKI is better suited for that role..
and the Tejas is better suited for providing the second line of the defence for Indian Skies as it was meant to be.

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## Black Widow

Oscar said:


> Very unlikely..
> considering the Tejas's size ,range.. and limited space..
> Its the complete antithesis for any AEW role aircraft.
> The MKI is better suited for that role..
> and the Tejas is better suited for providing the second line of the defence for Indian Skies as it was meant to be.


 

When this can be successful AEW role Aircraft






Then Why not this???







And more over I said testBed, Not prototype. remember T50's components are tested on 4th gen Su27 Frame.. It can easily done....

Quote from Wiki:
About 125 Prowlers remain today, divided between twelve Navy, four Marine, and four joint Navy-Air Force "Expeditionary" squadrons. Though once considered being replaced by Common Support Aircraft, the original plan failed to materialize. The EA-6B remains in active service today. In 2009 the Navy EA-6B Prowler community begin transitioning to the EA-18G Growler, a new electronic warfare derivative of the F/A-18F Super Hornet.


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## SQ8

Black Widow said:


> When this can be successful AEW role Aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Why not this???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And more over I said testBed, Not prototype. remember T50's components are tested on 4th gen Su27 Frame.. It can easily done....
> 
> Quote from Wiki:
> About 125 Prowlers remain today, divided between twelve Navy, four Marine, and four joint Navy-Air Force "Expeditionary" squadrons. Though once considered being replaced by Common Support Aircraft, the original plan failed to materialize. The EA-6B remains in active service today. In 2009 the Navy EA-6B Prowler community begin transitioning to the EA-18G Growler, a new electronic warfare derivative of the F/A-18F Super Hornet.



Ah.. 
you created the confusion..
Its EW and not AEW..
AEW stands for Airborne Early Warning.
EW stands for Electronic warfare.

Still.. The EA-6 had a lot of room for packaging in the equipment and electronics(along with cooling) needed for an EW aircraft.
The EA-18G is also a larger aircraft than the Tejas..
The MKI is much more suited to this role..
A MKI(J) version.. with the ability to carry Large numbers of electronic pods would be an invaluable addition to India's arsenal.
Ill show you a concept of it soon.

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## DANGER-ZONE

SpArK said:


> Lots of information on whats in store.
> 
> *Major RCS reduction initiatives*, *interal weapons* bay,plasma field.. etc..



LOL ... Stealthier thing become possible at Tejas side where as JF-17 won't take much .... 
Typically Childish


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## Black Widow

danger-zone said:


> LOL ... Stealthier thing become possible at Tejas side where as JF-17 won't take much ....
> Typically Childish



RCS reduction is possible in any aircraft.. But Tejas can not be made stealth without changing airframe. I think We all agree with it. May be you read it wrong. 





Oscar said:


> Ah..
> you created the confusion..
> Its EW and not AEW..
> AEW stands for Airborne Early Warning.
> EW stands for Electronic warfare.
> 
> Still.. The EA-6 had a lot of room for packaging in the equipment and electronics(along with cooling) needed for an EW aircraft.
> The EA-18G is also a larger aircraft than the Tejas..
> The MKI is much more suited to this role..
> A MKI(J) version.. with the ability to carry Large numbers of electronic pods would be an invaluable addition to India's arsenal.
> Ill show you a concept of it soon.





Thanks for correcting me.. Agree with you. Are you agree that Tejas can be used to test some components of next generation fighter planes??? This is all I meant to say..


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Are you agree that Tejas can be used to test some components of next generation fighter planes??? This is all I meant to say..



For the development of certain techs yes (AESA, engine, avionics), but that has nothing to do with Tejas, but with the generation of techs used in it.

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## SQ8

Black Widow said:


> Thanks for correcting me.. Agree with you. Are you agree that Tejas can be used to test some components of next generation fighter planes??? This is all I meant to say..



What the Tejas may eventually be good at.. is acting as a testbed for new FLCS systems, new composite construction techniques.
new control surfaces etc.
since in the worst case scenario any of these items fail and result in a crash of the Testbed.. it will still be a smaller loss as compared to say.. an MKI testbed or the like.

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## The Great One

Oscar said:


> What the Tejas may eventually be good at.. is acting as a testbed for new FLCS systems, new composite construction techniques.
> new control surfaces etc.
> since in the worst case scenario any of these items fail and result in a crash of the Testbed.. it will still be a smaller loss as compared to say.. an MKI testbed or the like.


Actually MKI would be easier to replace. Current facilities seem to allow the production of only about 1 Tejas every 6-7 months. OTOH we could easily purchase flankers from Roos. Plus Tejas being the light fighter would restrict it's capabilities to carry heavier avionics such as say the BARS type radar.[BARS mk-2 used to weigh a good{or bad} 650kgs]. But flankers are not ours anyway so maybe you are right.


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## SQ8

Posted MKI(J) concept 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/30328-indian-air-force-news-discussions-118.html#post3019447

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1874 Test Flights successfully. (05-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,*LSP2-211*,PV5-36,LSP3-53,LSP4-56,*LSP5-89*,LSP7-3,*NP1-3*)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1870 Test Flights successfully. (04-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-210,PV5-36,LSP3-53,LSP4-56,LSP5-87,LSP7-3,NP1-2)

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## AADHAAR

NP-1 taking the 3rd flight ..... wasn't there a restiction on the flight certification it got .. a limited amount of flight time or something.. no?

And is it still flying in Bangalore... & even if in Bangalore, can they test the landing gear and arrested recovery in Bangalore?
(I know the ski-jumps can happen only in Goa, but possibly they could test the recovery part)...


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## Hulk

I am at total loss at what is going with LCA. How far we are from FOC? Are we progressing at decent rate, what are next steps?


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## sudhir007

Any news about weapon trail in Goa at last month is it over. ????????

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-414.html#post2912313

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/178701-tejas-heads-goa-weapons-trials.html


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## sancho

AADHAAR said:


> And is it still flying in Bangalore... & even if in Bangalore, can they test the landing gear and arrested recovery in Bangalore?



To test arrested recovery, you need such a system on an airfield and most importanty a hook at the fighter. Both are not available yet and I'm not sure if they want to do such test in Bangalore. 




indianrabbit said:


> I am at total loss at what is going with LCA. How far we are from FOC? Are we progressing at decent rate, what are next steps?



FCS will be upgraded to achieve the AoA goals and LSP 6 wasn meant to do the related tests. Some weight and drag issues will be dealt (possibly one reason for the re-designed APU at LSP 7), further weapon and avionics will be tested too. 



sudhir007 said:


> Any news about weapon trail in Goa at last month is it over. ????????



Sadly not, I was hoping for you to find some infos about it.


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## AADHAAR

sancho said:


> To test arrested recovery, you need such a system on an airfield and most importanty a hook at the fighter. Both are not available yet and I'm not sure if they want to do such test in Bangalore.



Well, why not in Bangalore?

We don't need a ski-jump to test the recovery .... that can be on any airfield:

- they could test that the landing gear can withstand the stress due to controlled crash on the ground, and

- second, that Tejas comes to a halt in the required distance (with help from arrestor wires).

So, Bangalore airfield is as good as anywhere else.

And if not, then the 3 flights of NP-1 achieve very little: just that Tejas can take-off and land with the heavy landing gear... that's it.

It tests nothing much... Is it?


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## AADHAAR

deleted.. double post


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## Nishan_101

So will it be better than Gripen NG?


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## keerthan

im so bored from waiting for LCA man 
when it will be fully capable and FOC.................no one knows
atleast get naval LCA correctly on time.............


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## AADHAAR

keerthan said:


> im so bored from waiting for LCA man
> when it will be fully capable and FOC.................no one knows
> atleast get naval LCA correctly on time.............



I don't have that much of a problem .. don't really want a "hurried FOC" or a "hurried induction".

The focus should be on technological upgradation .... and "induction" will give more operational information, aiding further technological upgradation, but just that.

They should make a robust system .. which compares best in the world. And they should be able to compete technologically and commercially on the best fighters available to the IAF from around the world.

DRDO should focus on what it's job is: competitive products, in terms of technology, cost and timely delivery. 

IAF should focus on what it's own job is: It should buy the best air defence it can get to our country ... be it from DRDO or external competitors.

That keeps both DRDO and IAF competitive. Healthy criticism of both is welcome.

Only "indegenous" arms should be given the only the worth what it is due.... It's important the indigenous can compete with the best alternatives available.

The performance of HAL Tejas, Akash etc. is very competitive, when compared to what ever is available in the world at the price we can make them.


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## core

dnt worry dude...in past 3 weeks i had seen 4 test flights of lca.......in skies of bangalore........

surely work in progress....

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## sancho

AADHAAR said:


> Well, why not in Bangalore?



Because it doesn't make sense for IN to test / train the take off at one air field (INS HANSA) and the landing at another. N-LCA MK1 will make mainly flight testings, especially of the LEVCONS and the other naval re-designs at the airframe. Practicing the take offs and landings will be done mainly with the MK2 version.



AADHAAR said:


> The focus should be on technological upgradation .... and "induction" will give more operational information, aiding further technological upgradation, but just that.



Then it would be nothing else than a tech demonstrator.



AADHAAR said:


> They should make a robust system .. which compares best in the world. And they should be able to compete technologically and commercially on the best fighters available to the IAF from around the world.



That's what they actually do and which is the wrong way. First of all, it was never meant to compete the best fighters in the world, it is just a low end fighter for IAF and a cost-effective fighter for possible export customers. Secondly, just doing test flights with prototypes and tech demo versions of radar or avionics don't make the fighter better. It's actually the other way around, only inducting it into operational service, will tell us how good, reliable, or useful it is. That's why all over the world fighters will be inducted in a limited capable version and then will be upgraded in blocks with new weapons, avionics and new software. 
Anybody who believes we gained something so far only because we are flight testing LCA prototyes for years in limited operations and with all the failed development is highly mistaken. Get the fighter into operational service and in squadron size, even if it is the MK1 only and we will get waaay more experience and feedback of good and bad things. Most of all, we learn way more for the next developments!

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## AADHAAR

^^^^ I am not saying delay induction .... but induction is proceeding (okay, not at the best pace.. but it's okay).

What I don't want is that we induct 100 or 200 flying junks (just like J-10s) .. .and then all need to be scrapped because they are entirely useless... and need to be scrapped in 5 or 10 years !!!

We are already gaining a good deal of flying experience by flying 10+ Tejas already.

Why waste all the metal etc.. and if the FBW is risky (i.e. frequent crashes).. then you lose all the costly radar and pods attached to the aircraft.

Hence, testing is a very important phase ... we should say, speed up testing; but not a pre-mature induction.


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## shuttler

AADHAAR said:


> ^^^^ I am not saying delay induction .... but induction is proceeding (okay, not at the best pace.. but it's okay).
> 
> What I don't want is that we induct *100 or 200 flying junks (just like J-10s) *.. .and then all need to be scrapped because they are entirely useless... and need to be scrapped in 5 or 10 years !!!
> 
> We are already gaining a good deal of flying experience by flying 10+ Tejas already.
> 
> Why waste all the metal etc.. and if the FBW is risky (i.e.* frequent crashes*).. then you lose all the costly radar and pods attached to the aircraft.
> 
> Hence, testing is a very important phase ... we should say, speed up testing; but not a pre-mature induction.



"*frequent crashes*" this is a world record india. no one can match this.

"*100 or 200 flying junks (just like J-10s)*" haha jealous indians. we can spell the sickening sourness even through the internet! with much lesser budget and much shorter time we are doing things much better, more efficient and at much less costs. Can you rival these, delusional indian?

Have you purchased your sealant for your *L*eaking *C*ockpit *A*ircraft yet?

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## AADHAAR

shuttler said:


> "*frequent crashes*" this is a world record india. no one can match this.
> 
> "*100 or 200 flying junks (just like J-10s)*" haha jealous indians. we can spell the sickening sourness even through the internet! with much lesser budget and much shorter time we are doing things much better, more efficient and at much less costs. Can you rival these, delusional indian?
> 
> Have you purchased your sealant for your *L*eaking *C*ockpit *A*ircraft yet?



And why are you in this thread??

We will have the LCA like we want it. 
If we don't want to go like J-10, what is your problem.

Nobody advised you to go for your J-10 differently.. make 100s of untested planes - it's entirely upto china.

(And please don't troll here .. there are many places outside the sticky threads).

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## shuttler

AADHAAR said:


> And why are you in this thread??
> 
> We will have the LCA like we want it.
> If we don't want to go like J-10, what is your problem.
> 
> Nobody advised you to go for your J-10 differently.. make 100s of untested planes - it's entirely upto china.
> 
> (And please don't troll here .. there are many places outside the sticky threads).



I dont want to until I see "put-downs" on China!


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## sancho

AADHAAR said:


> ^^^^ I am not saying delay induction .... but induction is proceeding (okay, not at the best pace.. but it's okay).
> 
> What I don't want is that we induct 100 or 200 flying junks (just like J-10s) .. .and then all need to be scrapped because they are entirely useless... and need to be scrapped in 5 or 10 years !!!
> 
> We are already gaining a good deal of flying experience by flying 10+ Tejas already.
> 
> Why waste all the metal etc.. and if the FBW is risky (i.e. frequent crashes).. then you lose all the costly radar and pods attached to the aircraft.
> 
> Hence, testing is a very important phase ... we should say, speed up testing; but not a pre-mature induction.



First of all, please stop these pointless attacks on J10, which just derails the thread only. J10A is a good and capable fighter, so lets stick to LCA here!

Testing an LCA in good weather condictions, with limited loads, limited distance flights is not similar to operational service of the fighter in IAF. The fighters will carry different payloads, under different conditions and must be able to scramble, or to fly long range and endurance close air patrol roles. Not to mention that more fighters will fly more often than they do now, all this add to much more experience and know how about the fighter and it's system. 

Btw, LCA didn't crashed so far, not sure what you mean with FBW is risky?


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## ironman

Courtesy: Aviation Week


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## angeldemon_007

already a few threads opened on this article


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## SpArK

i posted it a week back.

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## Peaceful Civilian

SpArK said:


> i posted it a week back.


Source?

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## INDIAISM

Lca Mk3 i won't be surprise if it become reality....

LCA Mk3 Poor Man's F 35......I mean come on guys if Sweden can work on Gripen's stealth version then why can't we work on Tejas Stealth Version...

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## lightoftruth

is their a need for it ? why not work on amca directly after mk 2 ?


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## janon

INDIAISM said:


> Lca Mk3 i won't be surprise if it become reality....
> 
> LCA Mk3 Poor Man's F 35......I mean come on guys if Sweden can work on Gripen's stealth version then why can't we work on Tejas Stealth Version...



Because three blocks of gripen are already flying, two of them (gripen A/B and C/D) in service very succesfully in many countries, and gripen-NG also at an advanced stage of development.

HAL is the only entity that talks about working on a mk3 before mk1 is inducted or even cleared for service. MK2 is still on paper. Gripen entered full service some 15 years back. That's the difference.

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## razgriz19

its says STEALTHIER not STEALTH aircraft.
F-22 is a stealth aircraft.
Typhoon is a stealthier aircraft than other 4th generation fighters.

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## Pak47

You can't make a stealth fighter unless its designed as a stealth fighter from scratch. Lca 3 might feature.. lower RCS.

The picture in the article says it perfect "and a stealthier model the Mk.3"

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## INDIAISM

janon said:


> Because three blocks of gripen are already flying, two of them (gripen A/B and C/D) in service very succesfully in many countries, and gripen-NG also at an advanced stage of development.
> 
> HAL is the only entity that talks about working on a mk3 before mk1 is inducted or even cleared for service. MK2 is still on paper. Gripen entered full service some 15 years back. That's the difference.


Yes i agree with you that their are already 2 block of Gripen which are flying...but what you are forgot to mention is this that Sweden is not working on two fifth Gen Aircraft Projects and on the other hand HAL is already working on FGFA and AMCA project.....so the knowledge gained from these two project will definatly help us to work on LCA Mk3 and not to mention it will reduce the R&D cost of AMCA and FGFA....


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## baqai

What about inducting the MK1 first and than do some R&D based on feedback from the fliers?


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## KRAIT

baqai said:


> What about inducting the MK1 first and than do some R&D based on feedback from the fliers?


Induction will start in 2012....FYI...planning for future is not a bad idea


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## farhan_9909

it also says

lca mkII would be given for trials in 2016

consider the trials for 1 aor 1 1/2 year

so if mass production of lca mkII starts in mid 2017 THAN first squarden in 2018 mid or 2019


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## KRAIT

farhan_9909 said:


> it also says
> 
> lca mkII would be given for trials in 2016
> 
> consider the trials for 1 aor 1 1/2 year
> 
> so if mass production of lca mkII starts in mid 2017 THAN first squarden in 2018 mid or 2019


Till then we will be flying Rafale and Super Su 30 MKI and preparing for FGFA....ToT from Rafale will help in MK II....so no need to worry about it...


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## surya kiran

Yaar we should go step by step

1. Get the LCA inducted.
2. Get the MK2. ready and inducted
3. Upgrade the Mk2 with the latest avionics and EW systems which we can learn from the Rafale.
4. There is no way this plane can be made a complete 5th gen stealth plane. This will mean drastic changes to the existing frame and we all know what that means in IST (Indian Stretchable Time).

We have achieved what we want with the LCA and move on to the FGFA, Aura and AMCA. Else, we will be working on the LCA for another 50 years.

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## sancho

INDIAISM said:


> Yes i agree with you that their are already 2 block of Gripen which are flying...but what you are forgot to mention is this *that Sweden is not working on two fifth Gen Aircraft Project*s and on the other hand HAL is already working on FGFA and AMCA project.....so the knowledge gained from these two project will definatly help us to work on LCA Mk3 and not to mention it will reduce the R&D cost of AMCA and FGFA....



1) KFX twin engine stealth fighter concept for S. Korea:






http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5893/ksaab108fi8.jpg


2) FS2020/25 single engine stealth fighter concept (Gripen follower):





http://i.imgur.com/VxAgP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bMNSB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DVjPV.jpg


3) Saab Filur UAV demonstrator (first flight 2005):







4) Not to forget that Saab is a part of the nEUROn UCAV development too:






It's a common mistake that Europe has no 5th gen developments, only because they didn't developed an own fighter. People simply ignore that half of Europe is involved in the F35, in UAV/UCAV developments, or that most of the companies had made stealth concepts even years ago.
Saab is defenitely ahead of Indian counterparts in terms of experience and know how and that although they are the smallest European manufacturer.

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## sancho

janon said:


> Because three blocks of gripen are already flying, two of them (gripen A/B and C/D) in service very succesfully in many countries, and gripen-NG also at an advanced stage of development.
> 
> HAL is the only entity that talks about working on a mk3 before mk1 is inducted or even cleared for service. MK2 is still on paper. Gripen entered full service some 15 years back. That's the difference.



Perfect explanation! 




farhan_9909 said:


> it also says
> 
> lca mkII would be given for trials in 2016
> 
> consider the trials for 1 aor 1 1/2 year
> 
> so if mass production of lca mkII starts in mid 2017 THAN first squarden in 2018 mid or 2019



MK2 production starts around 2015, induction into operational service is 2017


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1878 Test Flights successfully. (07-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,*LSP2-212*,PV5-36,*LSP3-55*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-90*,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1874 Test Flights successfully. (05-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-211,PV5-36,LSP3-53,LSP4-56,LSP5-89,LSP7-3,NP1-3)


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1881 Test Flights successfully. (11-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,*LSP2-214*,PV5-36,LSP3-55,LSP4-56,*LSP5-91*,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1878 Test Flights successfully. (07-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-212,PV5-36,LSP3-55,LSP4-56,LSP5-90,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

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## SamantK

sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1881 Test Flights successfully. (11-June-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,*LSP2-214*,PV5-36,LSP3-55,LSP4-56,*LSP5-91*,LSP7-3,NP1-3)
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1878 Test Flights successfully. (07-June-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-212,PV5-36,LSP3-55,LSP4-56,LSP5-90,LSP7-3,NP1-3)


Can anyone tell me why the test flights happen in a seemingly random fashion... The latest planes should be up to date versions then why not test fly the latest ones...


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## ralphleo

samantk said:


> Can anyone tell me why the test flights happen in a seemingly random fashion... The latest planes should be up to date versions then why not test fly the latest ones...



Well if you carefully observe how the test schedule has been developed it will be easier to figure out the random fashion. ADA is testing multiple systems in parallel for example while one vehicle being used to carry out bombing tests another is being readied for testing new upgraded radar. Similarly while one is used to push the flight envelope other is prepared for testing IFF & chaff dispensing. If they had more time they might be building on top after each test but here the testing is done in parallel to ensure speedy completion.

Also, in my opinion they are modifying each vehicle incrementally as oppose to putting everything on 1 to spread the risk should there be a crash.


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## Abingdonboy

samantk said:


> Can anyone tell me why the test flights happen in a seemingly random fashion... The latest planes should be up to date versions then why not test fly the latest ones...



Well after a certain point the different prototypes are used to test and develop specific tech/techniques ie radar, HMDS, IFF etc and others can be used to push flight boundaries like seeing how to recover from all the different types of spin-Flat spins; Inverted spins; Power-off spins; Falling leaf spins . As this machine is complelty new fligth envelopes have to be establshed as well as proceudres of what to do in certain situations as each machine is different these have to tailor made.

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## keerthan

are weapons testing trials are done with LCA tejas or it still be done after some time

Im hacked off when will LCA be given FOC for production and still how many years we hve to wait................


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1887 Test Flights successfully. (14-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,*LSP2-216*,PV5-36,*LSP3-56*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-94*,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1881 Test Flights successfully. (11-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-214,PV5-36,LSP3-55,LSP4-56,LSP5-91,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

So the flight testing is in full swing but dnt know what they are testing weapon testing, AoA, Spain .... etc to get foc.
Also LSP-7 which Ist fly on march only get 3 flight test.

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## Boson

^^^^ And TD-1 and TD-2 and most probably PV-1 are not participating in the testing anymore. What has been there fate?

Have they lived their full life and utility.


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## satishkumarcsc

Boson said:


> ^^^^ And TD-1 and TD-2 and most probably PV-1 are not participating in the testing anymore. What has been there fate?
> 
> Have they lived their full life and utility.



Well I think PV1 will be used for Kaveri integration...but PV3 makes more sense....


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## cloud_9



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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-217*,PV5-36,*LSP3-57*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-95*,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1887 Test Flights successfully. (14-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-347,LSP1-74,LSP2-216,PV5-36,LSP3-56,LSP4-56,LSP5-94,LSP7-3,NP1-3)


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## keerthan

cloud_9 said:


>



this small bird really looks great and kool tooooo


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## Bobby

I noticed that weight-thrust ratio is increased drastically for LCA....great


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## keerthan

what is the max G limit of LCA some say it is 6 only..........


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## sancho

Bobby said:


> I noticed that weight-thrust ratio is increased drastically for LCA....great



Based on?




keerthan said:


> what is the max G limit of LCA some say it is 6 only..........



The latest prototypes have an upgraded FCS which should increase the limit.


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## rockstarIN

*Tejas aircraft in final trials at Pokhran*

*JAISALMER: Pokhran, which witnessed India's nuclear might, is now witnessing a different scene: indigenous Tejas fighter jets are demonstrating their fire power.
*
Tejas, indeginously built single-seat, single-engine, lightweight, high-agility supersonic fighter aircraft, is currently undergoing flight trials and firing tests here since Sunday in preparation for its operational clearance.

The current trial of Tejas in Chandan, Pokhran firing ranges of Jaisalmer district, is part of the final operational trials (FOC) and will continue for two days. The Tejas is planned to be cleared for operational service by late mid 2013. The light combat aircraft design and development programme is being led by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of the department of defence with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as the prime industrial contractor.

"Three of these Tejas aircraft have been taking off from forward Air Force bases to pound on an area with a variety of armaments - from precision guided bombs to conventional bombs weighing up to 500 kg during the tests. These exercises constitute the most important phase ahead of the aircraft's formal induction by the Indian Air Force and are intended to ensure that the bombs are released and hit targets on the ground with accuracy," an official source said. Teams of specialists from DRDO and HAL have already reached the firing range to conduct those tests.

"The IAF officially accepted its first Tejas fighter on March 21, 2011. The Tejas is planned to be cleared for operational service by this year end. The initial weapon tests including bombing begun at Pokhran firing range last year. Tejas' final operational clearance has reportedly been delayed till mid-2013 or later," defence spokesperson Col S D Goswami said.

A* total of 40 Tejas LCA Mk 1 aircraft are on order. There are plans to order LCA Mk 2 aircraft for 10 more squadrons (about 180 total aircraft) after completing production of LCA Mk 1*, he said.

"Tejas is a major modern Light combat aircraft that have been contracted for induction into IAF.The cost of procurement of the Tejas light combat aircraft is about Rs 8,861 crore. The design and manufacture of modern combat aircraft involves development of very high and sophisticated technology skills. HAL is manufacturing the light combat aircraft for IAF," he added.

Source TOI


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## Sergi

rockstar said:


> *Tejas aircraft in final trials at Pokhran*
> 
> *JAISALMER: Pokhran, which witnessed India's nuclear might, is now witnessing a different scene: indigenous Tejas fighter jets are demonstrating their fire power.
> *
> Tejas, indeginously built single-seat, single-engine, lightweight, high-agility supersonic fighter aircraft, is currently undergoing flight trials and firing tests here since Sunday in preparation for its operational clearance.
> 
> *The current trial of Tejas in Chandan, Pokhran firing ranges of Jaisalmer district, is part of the final operational trials (FOC) and will continue for two days*. The Tejas is planned to be cleared for operational service by late mid 2013. The light combat aircraft design and development programme is being led by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of the department of defence with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as the prime industrial contractor.
> 
> "Three of these Tejas aircraft have been taking off from forward Air Force bases to pound on an area with a variety of armaments - from precision guided bombs to conventional bombs weighing up to 500 kg during the tests. These exercises constitute the most important phase ahead of the aircraft's formal induction by the Indian Air Force and are intended to ensure that the bombs are released and hit targets on the ground with accuracy," an official source said. Teams of specialists from DRDO and HAL have already reached the firing range to conduct those tests.
> 
> "The IAF officially accepted its first Tejas fighter on March 21, 2011. The Tejas is planned to be cleared for operational service by this year end. The initial weapon tests including bombing begun at Pokhran firing range last year. Tejas' final operational clearance has reportedly been delayed till mid-2013 or later," defence spokesperson Col S D Goswami said.
> 
> A* total of 40 Tejas LCA Mk 1 aircraft are on order. There are plans to order LCA Mk 2 aircraft for 10 more squadrons (about 180 total aircraft) after completing production of LCA Mk 1*, he said.
> 
> "Tejas is a major modern Light combat aircraft that have been contracted for induction into IAF.The cost of procurement of the Tejas light combat aircraft is about Rs 8,861 crore. The design and manufacture of modern combat aircraft involves development of very high and sophisticated technology skills. HAL is manufacturing the light combat aircraft for IAF," he added.
> 
> Source TOI



Can anybody second the Bolded part ???
Is it really FOC procedure or part of FOC procedure ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Can anybody second the Bolded part ???
> Is it really FOC procedure or part of FOC procedure ???



It's part of FOC, we have seen similar weapon and external payload release trials for IOC as well.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> It's part of FOC, we have seen similar weapon and external payload release trials for IOC as well.


Thank you Sancho.
Are we really expecting LCA mark 1 induction this year ???
*( I am suspecting this since our great national party CONGRESS published LCA as inducted )*


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Thank you Sancho.
> Are we really expecting LCA mark 1 induction this year ???
> *( I am suspecting this since our great national party CONGRESS published LCA as inducted )*



That was the plan of IAF too, but it might depend on how the test phase goes on during the current climate conditions (heared it's raining badly in Kerala for example) and how good the changes are that came with LSP 6 and 7.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> That was the plan of IAF too, but it might depend on how the test phase goes on during the current climate conditions (heared it's raining badly in Kerala for example) and how good the changes are that came with LSP 6 and 7.



Wow I will be surprised and happy if LCA get IAF colours this year. Sounds great. 
One more question : the order of 40 Mark 1. Will these test planes get included in that order or they will be final brand new 40 ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Wow I will be surprised and happy if LCA get IAF colours this year. Sounds great.
> One more question : the order of 40 Mark 1. Will these test planes get included in that order or they will be final brand new 40 ???



No, all we see today are prototypes. The 40 x MK1s will be new once of the serial production and I can't wait to see them flying as well!

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> No, all we see today are prototypes. The 40 x MK1s will be new once of the serial production and I can't wait to see them flying as well!



Good. Then technically HAL/ADA will be free to work on Mark 2 after this induction is over, right. As you have mentioned earlier Mark 2 will not be big design change then what about the news that *"First flight of LCA Mark 2 in 2015"*. 
Are we expecting anything from Rafale ToT to add it in mark 2 ??? Or we can see Mark 2 before that ??? I prefer second


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Good. Then technically HAL/ADA will be free to work on Mark 2 after this induction is over, right. As you have mentioned earlier Mark 2 will not be big design change then what about the news that *"First flight of LCA Mark 2 in 2015"*.
> Are we expecting anything from Rafale ToT to add it in mark 2 ??? Or we can see Mark 2 before that ??? I prefer second



If I would have something to say, I would get RBE 2 AESA for LCA MK2! We will produce it under licence anyway and the French are offering full ToT of the radar. Why wast time and money on another AESA radar, just to claim it is indigenously developed? Develop one in the long term for FGFA or AMCA, but simply get LCA ready now and if we have to take foreign parts, who cares (except of some trolls)? 

Regarding first flight, we don't have all the infos about that version yet and much could change, especially by the fact that it will be developed for IAF and IN requirements at the same time. Wait and see is all we can do!

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> If I would have something to say, I would get RBE 2 AESA for LCA MK2! We will produce it under licence anyway and the French are offering full ToT of the radar. Why wast time and money on another AESA radar, just to claim it is indigenously developed? Develop one in the long term for FGFA or AMCA, but simply get LCA ready now and if we have to take foreign parts, who cares (except of some trolls)?
> 
> Regarding first flight, we don't have all the infos about that version yet and much could change, especially by the fact that it will be developed for IAF and IN requirements at the same time. Wait and see is all we can do!



RBE 2 AESA + SPECTRA + Frontal stealth = *Mini Rafale*

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## KRAIT

*Light Combat Rafale*....

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> If I would have something to say, I would get RBE 2 AESA for LCA MK2! We will produce it under licence anyway and the French are offering full ToT of the radar. Why wast time and money on another AESA radar, just to claim it is indigenously developed? Develop one in the long term for FGFA or AMCA, but simply get LCA ready now and if we have to take foreign parts, who cares (except of some trolls)?
> 
> Regarding first flight, we don't have all the infos about that version yet and much could change, especially by the fact that it will be developed for IAF and IN requirements at the same time. Wait and see is all we can do!


Are you saying we might see design changes too ??? It's 2012. Means we still have 3 full years to see the mark 2 prototype which is a long time considering Mark 2 comes fast than Mark 1 in other cases. 
Sorry for repeating the question. I just can take 3 years for Mark 2 if it's going to be the same airframe and no major design change. Either design is being changed or we are waiting for something .....



SpArK said:


> RBE 2 AESA + SPECTRA + Frontal stealth = *Mini Rafale*



With the additional advantage of considerable low price and mass production. If Mark 2 reaches 80 % and above of performance of Rafale IAF will go for 500 of those .

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Are you saying we might see design changes too ??? It's 2012. Means we still have 3 full years to see the mark 2 prototype which is a long time considering Mark 2 comes fast than Mark 1 in other cases.
> Sorry for repeating the question. I just can take 3 years for Mark 2 if it's going to be the same airframe and no major design change. Either design is being changed or we are waiting for something ...



Not design, but since they only mentioned MMR for MK2 and not AESA, it could be that MK2 will remain with the indigenous puls dopppler MMR, while AESA could be added in future MK3 and for AMCA. Similar can be said about IRST and the EWS capabilities, all not really clear so far.

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## WHITESMOKE

sancho said:


> If I would have something to say, I would get RBE 2 AESA for LCA MK2! We will produce it under licence anyway and the French are offering full ToT of the radar. Why wast time and money on another AESA radar, just to claim it is indigenously developed? Develop one in the long term for FGFA or AMCA, but simply get LCA ready now and if we have to take foreign parts, who cares (except of some trolls)?
> 
> Regarding first flight, we don't have all the infos about that version yet and much could change, especially by the fact that it will be developed for IAF and IN requirements at the same time. Wait and see is all we can do!


 
Wont be it a same mistake of developing from scratch like in LCA?? They can keep on the development. Lower version can be used for Lca and later high end can find the space in AMCA/FGFA


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## sancho

WHITESMOKE said:


> Wont be it a same mistake of developing from scratch like in LCA?? They can keep on the development. Lower version can be used for Lca and later high end can find the space in AMCA/FGFA



Developing from the scratch in general was not the issue, but to make the LCA dependent on indigenous radar and engine developments. Now we finally have chosen a ready available engine under licence production and develop Kaveri engine independently and my solution for the radar would be the same way. Taking RBE 2 AESA from MMRCA licence production for MK2 as well and develop an AESA alone or even with Thales as a logical partner (GaN AESA radar!!!) as aco-development. The important point however is, that we can speed up and secure LCA induction and production, no matter how good or bad Kaveri or indigenous AESA would be.

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## SamantK

sancho said:


> Developing from the scratch in general was not the issue, but to make the LCA dependent on indigenous radar and engine developments. Now we finally have chosen a ready available engine under licence production and develop Kaveri engine independently and my solution for the radar would be the same way. Taking RBE 2 AESA from MMRCA licence production for MK2 as well and develop an AESA alone or even with Thales as a logical partner (GaN AESA radar!!!) as aco-development. The important point however is, that we can speed up and secure LCA induction and production, no matter how good or bad Kaveri or indigenous AESA would be.



Exactly, this problem would not have come by if our govt had the vision to introduce all the systems one by one, focusing everything on one product and only then move on to the other.. this way I think Marut would have transformed to a majestic and a feared fighter..


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## sancho

samantk said:


> Exactly, this problem would not have come by if our govt had the vision to introduce all the systems one by one, focusing everything on one product and only then move on to the other.. this way I think Marut would have transformed to a majestic and a feared fighter..



 Again the government? Buddy, DRDO is responsible for planings and management of the LCA project, DRDOs Labs are responsible for the engine and radar developments, so why on earth we always point to anybody else except of them? They made LCA dependent on their own developments, because they completely overestimated the projects and their capabilities!


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## BLEND

DEBEL develops life support system for fighter aircraft

BANGALORE (PTI): Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL) has almost completed the development of onboard oxygen generation system centric integrated life support system (ILSS) for India's Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas).

"...now, nearing completion is integrated life support system based on onboard oxygen generation to provide unlimited flight endurance for our fighter aircraft", DEBEL's Director V C Padaki said at the inauguration of a new technical facility of DEBEL here.

DEBEL officials said the ILSS is expected to undergo flight trials by the year-end.

It was noted that the Tejas aircraft, with its multi-role capabilities and high manoeuvrability, would expose its pilot to extreme physiological stresses. The possibility of mid-air refuelling of Tejas enhances the mission endurance of the aircraft thus, necessitating the onboard generation of oxygen rather than depending on the conventional Gaseous oxygen (Gas-Ox) or Liquid Oxygen (LOX) systems.

In order to effectively counter the stresses and to meet the requirement of breathing oxygen in long duration missions, the aircraft has to be integrated with the critical ILSS, said officials of DEBEL, a life sciences lab of DRDO.

Chief Controller R&D (Life Sciences & International Collaboration), W Selvamurthy said the Army has ordered 700 units of Combat Free Fall (CFF) system for paratroopers,(which has been developed successfully by DEBEL for use by the special forces of Indian Army who undertake jumps from altitudes of 30,000 feet to sneak into enemy territory stealthily).

"Now, we are expecting thousands (of CFF system) to be ordered. This can be used by commandos, paramilitary for various counter-insurgency operations....), he said.

DEBEL officials said the system provides adequate breathing support to counter the effects of rarefied atmosphere and protection against intense cold experienced at high altitudes.

DEBEL developed the combat free fall oxygen system, protective clothing and equipment for paratroopers consisting of pre-breather console, personal bailout oxygen system, dilution demand oxygen regulator, oxygen mask, helmet, jumpsuit, gloves, boots, goggles and jack-knife.

Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and Director General of DRDO, V K Saraswat, inaugurated the new technical facility with advanced test facilities and analytical equipment for its research and development programmes on cutting edge technologies in life support systems and biomedical devices.

DEBEL develops life support system for fighter aircraft - Brahmand.com


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-220*,PV5-36,*LSP3-62*,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)


LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-217,PV5-36,LSP3-57,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

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## Sergi

sudhir007 said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-220*,PV5-36,*LSP3-62*,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)
> 
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-217,PV5-36,LSP3-57,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)



You are doing a good job. Thanks


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## Agent_47

I think the Mk2 cost will escalate around 60 mil $


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## arp2041

sancho said:


> No, all we see today are prototypes. The 40 x MK1s will be new once of the serial production and I can't wait to see them flying as well!



when will these initial 40 aircrafts go to production?? what will be the no. of aircrafts which HAL produce every year, since LCA cannot be in production beyond 2025 time period as this will be era of truly 5th gen fighters all over the world & LCA at that time will be of no value to produce further, assuming 15/year are produced starting 2014 & ending 2025, so in these 12 years we will be able to produce only 180 LCAs.


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## Manticore

Riaz Hussain said:


> angel of attack Thunder is 25.



link please?


And stay on topic

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## Sergi

ANTIBODY said:


> link please?
> 
> 
> And stay on topic


Thank you for clean up  appreciatted


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## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1903 Test Flights successfully. (22-June-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74, *LSP2-223*,PV5-36, *LSP3-63* ,LSP4-56
,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3) 


LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-220,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-62,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,L&#8203;SP7-3,NP1-3)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-217,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-57,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,L&#8203;SP7-3,NP1-3)


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## sudhir007

CSIO&#8217;s HUD for N-Tejas to be tested in July | idrw.org

The head-up display (HUD) for the naval version of the Tejas light combat aircraft is scheduled to be flight-tested next month. The naval version of the aircraft had undertaken its maiden test flight on April 27.

The HUD is an opto-electronic gadget installed above the cockpit&#8217;s instrument panel that superimposes vital flight parameters on the pilot&#8217;s vision of the outside world, giving him all requisite information at a glance and without having him to peer down inside the cockpit, thus enabling him to fly with his &#8220;head up&#8221;. Air speed, altitude, weapon status, rate of turn and angle of attack are among parameters displayed on the HUD.

Prototypes of the HUD&#8217;s naval version have been fabricated by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) here and one unit is being integrated into the naval fighter&#8217;s cockpit by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

A team of scientists from the CSIO are in Bangalore for the purpose.

The HUD for the naval version is a further development of the HUD produced for the air force version of the Tejas. The air force version has already been integrated into the cockpit and several units have been installed in the Tejas&#8217; prototype and limited series production aircraft.

The HUD for the naval version is technologically more advanced and has different technical specifications than the air force version and the operating parameters, cockpit configuration and the pilot&#8217;s field of vision are different.

The naval version is also designed to withstand the impact of harder landings on the aircraft carrier&#8217;s deck vis-a-vis landing on runways.

The CSIO has transferred the technology to the Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for commercial production of the air force version of the HUD. The Panchkula unit of the BEL has produced about 45 such units. In addition, two HUD units have also been fabricated by the CSIO for the HJT-36 trainer developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and a project is underway to develop an HUD for the HAL&#8217;s intermediate jet trainer.

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## SamantK

*Tejas completes weapon trials at Pokhran Ranges *
Bangalore: Three platforms of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas successfully completed advanced armament trials at Pokhran Ranges. Military sources confirm to Express that this time the focus of the trials was locked on to specific modes of releasing various weapons. The current campaign saw Tejas testing various altitude and speed combinations of 'critical nature.'
During the just-concluded weapon trials at the forward areas of Pokhran Ranges, practice, dumb and live bombs were released. A laser-guided bomb (LGB) was also tested. The trials are important as the platform is now being tested for its conversion as a fighting machine from a successful flying platform, sources said.
Different trials of sensors included testing of radio-altimeters, baro altitude, radars and laser. Tejas' limited series production (LSP) variants LSP-2, LSP-3 and LSP-5 are part of the current campaign. All modes of weapon releases and all types of sensors were tested at various points in flight envelope. The campaign team is now heading for sea trials, sources said. The Tejas variants flew at speeds between 900-1000 KMPH during the weapon trials, logging in total of 25 flights. In September 2011, Tejas had conducted weapon trials in Chandan and Pokhran Ranges, looked into accurate positions and target parameters. 
With all the platforms put together, the Tejas programme has to its credit 1903 flights, cloaking 1120 hours, so far. Its makers in Bangalore will have to catch up with the lost time in the programme, especially after its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) held in January 2011. Currently we are looking into the major segments of IOC-2. We are hopeful of completing the IOC-2 parameters by the last quarter of this year, sources said.



Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas completes weapon trials at Pokhran Ranges

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## david blain

jaldi se photo dikhao bhai


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## RPK

david blain said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1903 Test Flights successfully. (22-June-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74, *LSP2-223*,PV5-36, *LSP3-63* ,LSP4-56
> ,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)
> 
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-220,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-62,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,L&#8203;SP7-3,NP1-3)
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-217,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-57,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,L&#8203;SP7-3,NP1-3)



This Flight is weapon test


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## SamantK

david blain said:


> jaldi se photo dikhao bhai



Yeh lo....

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## keerthan

samantk said:


> *Tejas completes weapon trials at Pokhran Ranges *
> Bangalore: Three platforms of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas successfully completed advanced armament trials at Pokhran Ranges. Military sources confirm to Express that this time the focus of the trials was locked on to specific modes of releasing various weapons. The current campaign saw Tejas testing various altitude and speed combinations of 'critical nature.'
> &#8220;During the just-concluded weapon trials at the forward areas of Pokhran Ranges, practice, dumb and live bombs were released. A laser-guided bomb (LGB) was also tested. The trials are important as the platform is now being tested for its conversion as a fighting machine from a successful flying platform,&#8221; sources said.
> Different trials of sensors included testing of radio-altimeters, baro altitude, radars and laser. &#8220;Tejas' limited series production (LSP) variants LSP-2, LSP-3 and LSP-5 are part of the current campaign. All modes of weapon releases and all types of sensors were tested at various points in flight envelope. The campaign team is now heading for sea trials,&#8221; sources said. The Tejas variants flew at speeds between 900-1000 KMPH during the weapon trials, logging in total of 25 flights. In September 2011, Tejas had conducted weapon trials in Chandan and Pokhran Ranges, looked into accurate positions and target parameters.
> With all the platforms put together, the Tejas programme has to its credit 1903 flights, cloaking 1120 hours, so far. Its makers in Bangalore will have to catch up with the lost time in the programme, especially after its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) held in January 2011. &#8220;Currently we are looking into the major segments of IOC-2. We are hopeful of completing the IOC-2 parameters by the last quarter of this year,&#8221; sources said.
> 
> 
> 
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas completes weapon trials at Pokhran Ranges



good news hope they get FOC by this year end or early 2013

photos will be delightfull to watch if any plzzz post it


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## david blain

samantk said:


> Yeh lo....




weapon kaha gaye  anyway thanks par or pic aayengi aabhi



RPK said:


> This Flight is weapon test



LSP 5 nt used like LSP 2 lsp 3 ... all the havy lifting done by 2 and 3


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## SamantK

david blain said:


> weapon kaha gaye  anyway thanks par or pic aayengi aabhi
> 
> 
> 
> LSP 5 nt used like LSP 2 lsp 3 ... all the havy lifting done by 2 and 3


 Are bhai weapons to drop kar diye na... tune kya soocha, jhak marne gaya tha kya woh wahan?


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## david blain

samantk said:


> Yeh lo....









esa kuch he kya

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## Sergi

Nice pics  
I know i am asking too much but any chance of video of weapon test ???

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## KRAIT

Is it me that finds LCA dropping bomb look great .............


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## rockstarIN

KRAIT said:


> Is it me that finds LCA dropping bomb look great .............



Its an old picture in 2006-07 period, not about the new trials.

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## SamantK



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## kurup

samantk said:


>



These are all old pictures........
Waiting for pictures of pokhran trials.....


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## rockstarIN

Even the last Goa sea trails videos / photos not released except some snaps of the airbase with Sea Harriers. 

Do not expect such things now, earlier we released bomb release videos. Now the programme is in the final phase close to FOC...So do not expect much media release.


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## SpArK

*India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials*







As part of its campaign for the second phase of initial operational clearance (IOC-2) and final operational clearance (FOC), the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has just completed a two-day schedule of weapons trials at the desert field firing range in Pokhran, Rajasthan. 

*The trials involved three Tejas platforms (LSPs 2, 3 and 5) deploying a series of weapons, including laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs.* The tests were a continuation of weapons deployment trials that took place at Pokhran in September last year. LSPs 2 and 5 were fielded again this year, but LSP4 used last year was replaced with LSP3 for this year's tests.

Over-sea trials are expected to ensue shortly. Remember, the *Tejas is yet to testfire a BVR missile -- the Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77.*


Livefist: India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials

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## SamantK

^^^ Now that is a cool pic.. the news is repeated, I guess Shiv is getting slow


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## DANGER-ZONE

SpArK said:


> *India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As part of its campaign for the second phase of initial operational clearance (IOC-2) and final operational clearance (FOC), the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has just completed a two-day schedule of weapons trials at the desert field firing range in Pokhran, Rajasthan.
> 
> *The trials involved three Tejas platforms (LSPs 2, 3 and 5) deploying a series of weapons, including laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs.* The tests were a continuation of weapons deployment trials that took place at Pokhran in September last year. LSPs 2 and 5 were fielded again this year, but LSP4 used last year was replaced with LSP3 for this year's tests.
> 
> Over-sea trials are expected to ensue shortly. Remember, the *Tejas is yet to testfire a BVR missile -- the Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77.*
> 
> 
> Livefist: India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials



Old pic I guess because it is carrying practice bombs 1


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## farhan_9909

long back someone said it has already fired derby and is integrated already


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## Archie

farhan_9909 said:


> long back someone said it has already fired derby and is integrated already



Well Derby was the choice , But i think the Weapon's trial have been conducted with Russian R-77, R-73 AAM

Its something to do with the fact that Derby's 50 Km range is not really useful , and our current stockpile of 150 Derby AAM used by Sea Harriers, will be phased out by 2016-17
While we do have over 2000 R-27, R-73 , R-77 and another 1500 on order with 450 Going to Navy

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## Matrixx

danger-zone said:


> Old pic I guess because it is carrying practice bombs 1



It is not old picture..looks new AC


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## david blain

Archie said:


> Well Derby was the choice , But i think the Weapon's trial have been conducted with Russian R-77, R-73 AAM
> 
> Its something to do with the fact that Derby's 50 Km range is not really useful , and our current stockpile of 150 Derby AAM used by Sea Harriers, will be phased out by 2016-17
> *While we do have over 2000 R-27, R-73 , R-77 and another 1500 on order with 450 Going to Navy*



where did u get this info ??????


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## mylovepakistan

any link for testing/firing of R-77 missile from tejas???


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As part of its campaign for the second phase of initial operational clearance (IOC-2) and final operational clearance (FOC), the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has just completed a two-day schedule of weapons trials at the desert field firing range in Pokhran, Rajasthan.
> 
> *The trials involved three Tejas platforms (LSPs 2, 3 and 5) deploying a series of weapons, including laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs.* The tests were a continuation of weapons deployment trials that took place at Pokhran in September last year. LSPs 2 and 5 were fielded again this year, but LSP4 used last year was replaced with LSP3 for this year's tests.
> 
> Over-sea trials are expected to ensue shortly. Remember, the *Tejas is yet to testfire a BVR missile -- the Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77.*
> 
> 
> Livefist: India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials



What are they waiting for? Radar was integrated long back...or are they so confident of 2032-Derby combination that they can integrate any given time?


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## keerthan

Archie said:


> Well Derby was the choice , But i think the Weapon's trial have been conducted with Russian R-77, R-73 AAM
> 
> Its something to do with the fact that Derby's 50 Km range is not really useful , and our current stockpile of 150 Derby AAM used by Sea Harriers, will be phased out by 2016-17
> While we do have over 2000 R-27, R-73 , R-77 and another 1500 on order with 450 Going to Navy



I too agree with should have considers longer range missiles for Tejas something with range >100km 
mica and 
Meteor missile would have been a great chance .
its still in pre-induction but once it is completed indian airforce should consider it


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## Su-11

Notice the bent-wing(a.k.a wing-twist) in Tejas and J-10











Now check JF-17






"The JF-17 doesn&#8217;t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed."
Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ? Are the critics right in calling it Junk Fighter -17 ?

"The lack of wing twist on the JF-17 should give it a poor and un-even stall behavior."
The SAAF Forum &bull; View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen


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## securityofficer

Su-11 said:


> Notice the bent-wing(a.k.a wing-twist) in Tejas and J-10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now check JF-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The JF-17 doesn&#8217;t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed."
> Is Pakistan's JF-17 a Thunder or Blunder ? Are the critics right in calling it Junk Fighter -17 ?
> 
> "The lack of wing twist on the JF-17 should give it a poor and un-even stall behavior."
> The SAAF Forum &bull; View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen


 jf 17 # joint failier 17 times ha ha just joking


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## DANGER-ZONE

^ 






Comparing an Delta canard design with JFT. Why dont you do the same for F-16.
BTW you are reported for OFF TOPIC troll ..


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## chairborne ranger

what is this bull$hit doing in the indian defence section? ....now only is this dumb, it is also pathetic


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## Su-11

There is a reason why F-16 is called "Lawn Dart". You might want to check that out.


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## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1904 Test Flights successfully. (27-June-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,*NP1-4*) 

From 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1903 Test Flights successfully. (22-June-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)


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## Boson

david blain said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1904 Test Flights successfully. (27-June-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,*NP1-4*)
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1903 Test Flights successfully. (22-June-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)



Happy to see NP-1 making another flight !!!!!!

The naval fighter planes are advanced technology... good to see ADA and Indian Navy's sticking and pursuing these developments.


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## mylovepakistan

securityofficer said:


> jf 17 # joint failier 17 times ha ha just joking



keep these kind of jokes away...!
otherwise every one will always take you as joker...!


----------



## Matrixx

India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials

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## kurup

Matrixx said:


> India's Tejas Completes Bombing Trials



Is it the picture from the new pokhran trials ??


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## Matrixx

octopus said:


> Is it the picture from the new pokhran trials ??



Yes Sir.......


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## proud_indian

Matrixx said:


> Yes Sir.......



please provide the source....


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## sancho

Matrixx said:


> Yes Sir.......



Not from the last trials, but from earlier once (FOC 1)


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## swathi

Can any one clarify my doubt: IS light combat aircraft equipped with Infra Red Search Track systems?


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## satishkumarcsc

swathi said:


> Can any one clarify my doubt: IS light combat aircraft equipped with Infra Red Search Track systems?



No, it dosent have an IRST system. Only the Litening III LDP is carried in one of the hardpoints.


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## Martian2

*Three things I don't like about the LCA / Tejas*






Indian LCA / Tejas





Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon

1. The J-10 has a bubble canopy that allows the pilot a commanding 360-degree view. On the Tejas, you can't see behind the pilot.

2. I don't like the Tejas tail-less delta wing design. The lack of horizontal stabilizers/control surfaces should reduce maneuverability.

3. I don't like the Tejas short combat radius of 265 miles. India is a large country and a point-defense fighter is a terrible idea.

These are all bad design choices.


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## sms

Martian2 said:


> *Three things I don't like about the LCA/Tejas*
> 
> 1. As shown in your pictures, the J-10 has a bubble canopy that allows the pilot a commanding 360 degree view. On the Tejas, you can't see behind the pilot.



J10 - DO NOT have bubble canopy. If it does as per your claim LCA do have it.
Additionally it's not a siginificant advantage we are not in WW2 era to have gun fight at slow speed. It's good to have but not required, it's job better left to sensors. Even with bubble canopy you cannot see beyond 8 o'clock.



Martian2 said:


> 2. I don't like the tail-less delta wing design. The lack of control surfaces should reduce maneuverability.



Designers knows better than you, LCA is designed to pull +9/ -3.5 G. vs J10 g limits +9/-3 g -- check which one is better.



Martian2 said:


> 3. I don't like the short combat radius of 265 miles. India is a large country and a point-defense fighter is a terrible idea.
> These are all bad design choices.


Check your stats it's 500+ miles and is good enough for point defence plane. Please note that military planners know better than a mere fan boy.

*PS: Check the thread title and Keep your bad habbits in check and stay away from bring J10 or other sino BS to this thread.*

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## Abingdonboy

Things I don't like about J-10:





Nah I'm just kidding!! I'm not that insecure!!

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## Martian2

sms said:


> J10 - DO NOT have bubble canopy. If it does as per your claim LCA do have it.
> Additionally it's not a siginificant advantage we aere not in WW2 era to have gun fight ar slow speed. It's good to have but not required, it's job better left to sensors. Even with bubble canopy you cannot see beyond 8 o'clock.
> 
> Designers knows better than you, LCA is designed to pull +9/ -3.5 G. vs J10 g limits +9/-3 g -- check which one is better.
> 
> Check your stats it's 500+ miles and is good enough for point defence plane. Please note that military planners know better than a mere fan boy.
> 
> *PS: Check the thread title and Keep your bad habbits in check and stay away from bring J10 or other sino BS to this thread.*



Range is flying from point A to point B.

Combat radius is takeoff from air base (point A), flying out on patrol, and then returning to base (point A again). Hence, combat radius is at most 1/2 of range. My information for the LCA / Tejas combat radius is correct.

There is nothing wrong in comparing with J-10. "Su-11" (on the previous page) did it with the fuel tanks. Also, I could just as easily have pointed to the F-16 bubble canopy and left the J-10 out. Do you want to exclude the bubble canopy from the F-16 too?

This is just a discussion about aircraft design. However, it seems you Indians are extremely touchy. I'm outta here.

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## sms

^^^^ Thankyou very much. Finally the LCA thread will be saved from Martians invasion  
Kidding you can post but try to refrain from your dick measuring habbits 

Note LCA do not have restriction on view angle for pilot. Look at the picture of LCA you've posted. It's a shot from 5 o'clock and you can see Pilot. That makes an view angle of approx 324 degree. So your claim is not valid.

Regarding radius you are right is almost 310 miles without drop tanks -- where your super J10 has combat radius of merely 340 miles without drop tanks. So by following your analogy it's a VERY bad planning to have a multi role aircraft with such mediocre combat radius for a big country like China.

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## arp2041

*Bvr Missile Tests soon from Tejas*

Source close to www.lca-tejas.org , have confirmed that Recent Weapons Trials carried out in Pokhran field firing ranges in in the western desert state of Rajasthan ,have been successful and LSP 2 ,3 and 5 , will soon head to Goa for Maritime trials soon , which will also likely include first test firing of beyond-visual-range missile, which will be either the Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77.

Sources also informed that major weapons in Air to Ground configuration will be cleared by IOC-2 , which ADA hopes to achieve by end of this year , but bulk of Air to Air weapons (BVR and WVR) will only be cleared before FOC . Tejas should finally be cleared for operational service by mid of 2013 or end of 2013 .

Recent test carried by Tejas had variety of armaments such as precision-guided bombs and conventional bombs weighing up to 500 kg and practice, dumb and live bombs even a laser-guided bomb (LGB) was tested during the tests. All modes of weapon releases and all types of sensors were tested at various points in flight envelope.

Bvr Missile Tests soon from Tejas | idrw.org

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## sancho

sms said:


> ^^^^ Thankyou very much. Finally the LCA thread will be saved from Martians invasion
> Kidding you can post but try to refrain from your dick measuring habbits



Sadly no, we will have to see more of these obvious troll attempts since the mods let him play his blame games no matter how often we report him, or how often they have to delete his posts or whole sections of threats that ran out of topic because he started useless discussions based on nothing.
We should simply play it save and ignore him, it's simply not worth to get a warning or even a ban because we replied to such nonsence. I have nothing about reasonable discussions with people, no matter which country they come from, but this guy was so often countered by so many members of different origin, it's not even funny anymore. So lets just stick to topic and some real things to discuss about!




arp2041 said:


> *Bvr Missile Tests soon from Tejas*
> 
> Source close to www.lca-tejas.org , have confirmed that Recent Weapons Trials carried out in Pokhran field firing ranges in in the western desert state of Rajasthan ,have been successful and LSP 2 ,3 and 5 , will soon head to Goa for Maritime trials soon , which will also likely include first test firing of beyond-visual-range missile, which will be either the Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77.
> 
> Sources also informed that major weapons in Air to Ground configuration will be cleared by IOC-2 , which ADA hopes to achieve by end of this year , but bulk of Air to Air weapons (BVR and WVR) will only be cleared before FOC . Tejas should finally be cleared for operational service by mid of 2013 or end of 2013 .
> 
> Recent test carried by Tejas had variety of armaments such as precision-guided bombs and conventional bombs weighing up to 500 kg and practice, dumb and live bombs even a laser-guided bomb (LGB) was tested during the tests. All modes of weapon releases and all types of sensors were tested at various points in flight envelope.
> 
> Bvr Missile Tests soon from Tejas | idrw.org




Interesting, but with the decision of IAF to get Derby too like IN and phase out R77 as soon as possible, it should be rather unlikely that they will integrate R77 only for the IOC or FOC test. The fact that the tests will be done at a naval airbase and that these prototypes should use the same EL 2032 as INs Sea Harriers once again hints to Derby missile.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Sadly no, we will have to see more of these obvious troll attempts since the mods let him play his blame games no matter how often we report him, or how often they have to delete his posts or whole sections of threats that ran out of topic because he started useless discussions based on nothing.
> We should simply play it save and ignore him, it's simply not worth to get a warning or even a ban because we replied to such nonsence. I have nothing about reasonable discussions with people, no matter which country they come from, but this guy was so often countered by so many members of different origin, it's not even funny anymore. So lets just stick to topic and some real things to discuss about!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, but with the decision of IAF to get Derby too like IN and phase out R77 as soon as possible, it should be rather unlikely that they will integrate R77 only for the IOC or FOC test. The fact that the tests will be done at a naval airbase and that these prototypes should use the same EL 2032 as INs Sea Harriers once again hints to Derby missile.



Where are we phasing out R-77 specially IN? Mig-29k's major BVR remains R-77.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Where are we phasing out R-77 specially IN? Mig-29k's major BVR remains R-77.



In IAF mainly of course and Astra is meant to be the missile for INs Mig 29K in future as well.


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## Black Widow

^^^^^

COOL...


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> In IAF mainly of course and Astra is meant to be the missile for INs Mig 29K in future as well.



But we even made purchases of more R-77 for Mig-29K


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## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1911 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-226*,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,*LSP5-98*,*LSP7-4*,NP1-4) 


from 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1904 Test Flights successfully. (27-June-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-4)


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> But we even made purchases of more R-77 for Mig-29K



Of course, because Astra is not ready yet and we need to bridge the time (IAFs recent procurement of R27 might route in the same direction), but the aim is to phase out Russian missiles and use Astra instead. FGFA and AMCA should not have Russian AAMs at all and hopefully Indian counterparts that will be ready by then.

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## subincb

Flight Test News
LCA-Tejas has completed *1925 *Test Flights successfully. (03-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-230,*PV5-36,*LSP3-70*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-101*,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

from
LCA-Tejas has completed *1911* Test Flights successfully. (02-July-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-226*,PV5-36,*LSP3-63*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-98*,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

So many test in a single day. How is it possible? Its getting better every day I guess. May be they are in Goa now

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## Roybot

Yeah has to be the sea level trials. LSP3 made 7 flights in one day?


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## Boson

LSP-1 have been sitting quiet for over 2 months.

On page 414 (of this thread), LSP-1 had 74 flights on 04-May-12 and it's still the same.

Secondly, they seem to be stop using the planes after 250 to 350 flights (at an average of 30 mins per flight, it would be between 125 to 175 hours of flying time).

What are the plans for TD-1, TD-2 and PV-1, PV-2 and PV-3 now .... their engines would still have a life of 4000 hours (before need to engine overhaul). Are they upgrading those to sqaudron service?


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## arp2041

don't know if this was posted earlier but an interesting development:

*Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards*

_India's indigenously developed supersonic fighter aircraft to be developed into a stealth platform._

Dr. V.K Saraswat, presently the Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister, delivered a keynote address at the recently held Aerospace Forum in Sweden that concluded on the 3rd of June, this year. Titled, 'Vision for Indias Future Aerospace and Defence', he spoke of some of big ticket Aerospace development projects currently underway or are to commence shortly.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

"Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."

Considering this aircraft was not developed from the outset to be stealthy, the final outcome of this particular venture would, therefore, be more of having improved the aircraft to exhibit greater reduction in its Radar Cross-Section [RCS] than its previous iterations [Mk. I & II]. Having a small-sized airframe [smallest for its class], inherently gives it a fair degree of that advantage even now. Add to it reduced metallic surfaces by replacing it with increased composites, and you should have a fine aircraft whose chances of detection on the radar would be that much closer to those aircraft, bigger in size, that are touted as truly stealth fighters. For an aircraft that is not to be the frontline fighter of the Indian Air Force, this development should be a welcome gain.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation [DRDO], on the back of its present Airborne Early Warning & Control System [AEW&CS] development programme, that now appears to be looking up, is to initiate a program to build a more powerful platform capable of detecting fifth generation stealth aircraft & unmanned flying systems. This project gains significance in light of development of fifth generation fighters in the neighbourhood, that should likely enter service by the end of this decade, along with increasing adoption of unmanned aerial systems by armed forces the world over.

At the same time, the country is exploring ways to better detect stealth aircraft. Detecting low-observable aircraft is a key element of the Indian 2020 airborne early warning and control development effort, a program likely to start in late 2014. It will be based on a yet-to-be selected widebody. This initiative follows the current Embraer EMB-145-based airborne early warning program featuring an Indian-developed, 240-deg field-of-view radar. The first of the modified regional jets is due for delivery to India in August, with radar integration to start in October.

The new system will feature a rotodome radar and be integrated with unmanned aircraft and aerostats to allow bi-static radar operations to detect stealth aircraft, says Vijay Kumar Saraswat, scientific adviser to the director general of the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). The distributed transmitter and receiver approach should also aid in detecting small targets, such as unmanned aircraft, and provide extended-range detection, Saraswat recently told the Aerospace Forum Sweden 2012.

Dr. Saraswat's talk has been summarised in an article that appears in the latest issue of the Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. You could read the full article below.







Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN

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## Sergi

arp2041 said:


> don't know if this was posted earlier but an interesting development:
> 
> *Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards*
> 
> _India's indigenously developed supersonic fighter aircraft to be developed into a stealth platform._
> 
> Dr. V.K Saraswat, presently the Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister, delivered a keynote address at the recently held Aerospace Forum in Sweden that concluded on the 3rd of June, this year. Titled, 'Vision for India&#8217;s Future Aerospace and Defence', he spoke of some of big ticket Aerospace development projects currently underway or are to commence shortly.
> 
> Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.
> 
> "Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."
> 
> Considering this aircraft was not developed from the outset to be stealthy, the final outcome of this particular venture would, therefore, be more of having improved the aircraft to exhibit greater reduction in its Radar Cross-Section [RCS] than its previous iterations [Mk. I & II]. Having a small-sized airframe [smallest for its class], inherently gives it a fair degree of that advantage even now. Add to it reduced metallic surfaces by replacing it with increased composites, and you should have a fine aircraft whose chances of detection on the radar would be that much closer to those aircraft, bigger in size, that are touted as truly stealth fighters. For an aircraft that is not to be the frontline fighter of the Indian Air Force, this development should be a welcome gain.
> 
> The Defence Research & Development Organisation [DRDO], on the back of its present Airborne Early Warning & Control System [AEW&CS] development programme, that now appears to be looking up, is to initiate a program to build a more powerful platform capable of detecting fifth generation stealth aircraft & unmanned flying systems. This project gains significance in light of development of fifth generation fighters in the neighbourhood, that should likely enter service by the end of this decade, along with increasing adoption of unmanned aerial systems by armed forces the world over.
> 
> At the same time, the country is exploring ways to better detect stealth aircraft. Detecting low-observable aircraft is a key element of the Indian 2020 airborne early warning and control development effort, a program likely to start in late 2014. It will be based on a yet-to-be selected widebody. This initiative follows the current Embraer EMB-145-based airborne early warning program featuring an Indian-developed, 240-deg field-of-view radar. The first of the modified regional jets is due for delivery to India in August, with radar integration to start in October.
> 
> The new system will feature a rotodome radar and be integrated with unmanned aircraft and aerostats to allow bi-static radar operations to detect stealth aircraft, says Vijay Kumar Saraswat, scientific adviser to the director general of the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). The distributed transmitter and receiver approach should also aid in detecting small targets, such as unmanned aircraft, and provide extended-range detection, Saraswat recently told the Aerospace Forum Sweden 2012.
> 
> Dr. Saraswat's talk has been summarised in an article that appears in the latest issue of the Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. You could read the full article below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN



Good news. But they should have waited for induction of Mark I and first flight of Mark II before outlining Mark III.


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## INDIAISM

I think the first thing DRDO should do is to stop announcing their future projects and keep these project as secret untill they succeed ......so that their work do the talking......because all these early announcents make DRDO a laughing stock...

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## Sergi

INDIAISM said:


> I think the first thing DRDO should do is to stop announcing their future projects and keep these project as secret untill they succeed ......so that their work do the talking......because all these early announcents make DRDO a laughing stock...


Yup totally agree with you. Mr. Sarswat is too much press friendly.


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## Dash

Sergi said:


> Yup totally agree with you. Mr. Sarswat is too much press friendly.



Sarswast is doing his job well, its about ADA who has to givee design and technial platforms not doing its job properly...we still dont know the actuall technical abilities of LCA mk2, whichc was supposed to be revealed by ADA. but still not. Saraswat is saying what he was told.....


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sarswast is doing his job well, its about ADA who has to givee design and technial platforms not doing its job properly...we still dont know the actuall technical abilities of LCA mk2, whichc was supposed to be revealed by ADA. but still not. Saraswat is saying what he was told.....



Hi Dash, isn't it the other way around? ADA is responsible for the airframe design as well as the integration of certain techs possibly and we know that the design of MK2 won't be that different to MK1. We even know details about these changes, like stretched and modified fuselage to integrate the additional fuel tanks and the new engine, slightly bigger inlets for more airflow to the engine, modified APU intake which is already visible with the LSP 7. What we don't know yet are actually techs that will be developed for LCA, like the radar. All we know about it is, that it will be a multi mode radar, but not if it will be the normal puls doppler MMR of MK1, or an AESA version. Similarly, we heared much about IRST, or EWS development of certain Indian companies, but we don't know if they will be integrated into MK2 or not. So actually ADA has made their case pretty open, while the other development partners are still very quiet, possibly because it's unclear how mature their developments are.


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## subincb

sancho said:


> Hi Dash, isn't it the other way around? ADA is responsible for the airframe design as well as the integration of certain techs possibly and we know that the design of MK2 won't be that different to MK1. We even know details about these changes, like stretched and modified fuselage to integrate the additional fuel tanks and the new engine, slightly bigger inlets for more airflow to the engine, modified APU intake which is already visible with the LSP 7. What we don't know yet are actually techs that will be developed for LCA, like the radar. All we know about it is, that it will be a multi mode radar, but not if it will be the normal puls doppler MMR of MK1, or an AESA version. Similarly, we heared much about IRST, or EWS development of certain Indian companies, but we don't know if they will be integrated into MK2 or not. So actually ADA has made their case pretty open, while the other development partners are still very quiet, possibly because it's unclear how mature their developments are.


 
I guess AESA is for sure as Sarsawat recent interview he said its definitely gonna be AESA for Tejas Mark II.

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## eachus

sms said:


> J10 - DO NOT have bubble canopy. If it does as per your claim LCA do have it.
> Additionally it's not a siginificant advantage we are not in WW2 era to have gun fight at slow speed. It's good to have but not required, it's job better left to sensors. Even with bubble canopy you cannot see beyond 8 o'clock.
> 
> Designers knows better than you, LCA is designed to pull +9/ -3.5 G. vs J10 g limits +9/-3 g -- check which one is better.
> 
> 
> Check your stats it's 500+ miles and is good enough for point defence plane. Please note that military planners know better than a mere fan boy.
> 
> *PS: Check the thread title and Keep your bad habbits in check and stay away from bring J10 or other sino BS to this thread.*




I am new here, does anyone have update spec for LCA? 
I dont want to original requirements, LCA did not meed those.


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## eachus

http://www.hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp
Specification: 

Length: 13.2 m
Span: 8.2 m
Height : 4.4 m
Max Take of Weight: 13.5 t
Payload: 5.3 t

Speed: 1.6 M
Radius of Action: 300 km
Takeoff distance: 1700 m
Landing distance : 1300 m
Service Ceiling: 16 km











300Km combat radius is little too short.


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## conworldus

Anti-ship for the LCA? Exactly which anti-ship missile does it carry?


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## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1925 Test Flights successfully. (03-July-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-230*,PV5-36,*LSP3-70*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-101*,LSP7-4,NP1-4) 

from 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1911 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-226,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-98,L&#8203;SP7-4,NP1-4) 


14 flights in a day ....


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## BlueDot_in_Space

david blain said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1925 Test Flights successfully. (03-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-230*,PV5-36,*LSP3-70*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-101*,LSP7-4,NP1-4)
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1911 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-2&#8203;22,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-226,PV&#8203;5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-98,L&#8203;SP7-4,NP1-4)
> 
> 
> 14 flights in a day ....



*LSP2-4 flights/day , LSP3-7 flights/day, LSP5-3 flights/day, what a turn around time, what a talent, kya baat kya baat kya baat*

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## arp2041

I don't understand, after more than 1900 flights, still LCA is not "capable" enough to serve the IAF????


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## karan21

arp2041 said:


> I don't understand, after more than 1900 flights, still LCA is not "capable" enough to serve the IAF????



until and unless it gets the capability of intergalactic travel using portals it cant be inducted. mig 21 are much more capable.


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## black_jack

arp2041 said:


> I don't understand, after more than 1900 flights, still LCA is not "capable" enough to serve the IAF????



We have not yet integrated any BVR . 2000 hours of flight time is needed for FOC .


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## sancho

subincb said:


> I guess AESA is for sure as Sarsawat recent interview he said its definitely gonna be AESA for Tejas Mark II.



At least that the development for it is on, but lets wait and see how far the development really is and how capable it really will be. "Equal" to the best in the world" is a big promise, especially when we look at what they have delivered so far and that IAF/MoD wasn't happy with the performance so far and actively considered co-developments with foreign partners, preferably Elta.



eachus said:


> I am new here, does anyone have update spec for LCA?
> I dont want to original requirements, LCA did not meed those.



These were the last that came out at Aero India 2011 and from a DRDO brochure for MK1:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ypw_Ma1gug/TVeFu_sULnI/AAAAAAAAAHM/zKh2MylRys4/s1600/DSC03688.JPG

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2330/feb20112.jpg


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Hi Dash, isn't it the other way around? ADA is responsible for the airframe design as well as the integration of certain techs possibly and we know that the design of MK2 won't be that different to MK1. We even know details about these changes, like stretched and modified fuselage to integrate the additional fuel tanks and the new engine, slightly bigger inlets for more airflow to the engine, modified APU intake which is already visible with the LSP 7. What we don't know yet are actually techs that will be developed for LCA, like the radar. All we know about it is, that it will be a multi mode radar, but not if it will be the normal puls doppler MMR of MK1, or an AESA version. Similarly, we heared much about IRST, or EWS development of certain Indian companies, but we don't know if they will be integrated into MK2 or not. So actually ADA has made their case pretty open, while the other development partners are still very quiet, possibly because it's unclear how mature their developments are.



Sancho, what you said is correct, however the IRST and AESA are not a major part of MK2 as far as testing of the airframe design and validation is concerned. We know that ADA is responsible for teh design, what we dont know that if they have frozen it. If they have frozen the design and given it to DRDO then the onus is on DRDO to come up with the prototype and start the trials. My doubt is that they are waiting for the engine delivery, but if you look at it they can take an off the selve engine and start the trails. so engine is not a problem with DRDO, what I think is that the design work is still going on and its not yet finalized.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho, what you said is correct, however the IRST and AESA are not a major part of MK2 as far as testing of the airframe design and validation is concerned. We know that ADA is responsible for teh design, what we dont know that if they have frozen it. If they have frozen the design and given it to DRDO then the onus is on DRDO to come up with the prototype and start the trials. My doubt is that they are waiting for the engine delivery, but if you look at it they can take an off the selve engine and start the trails. so engine is not a problem with DRDO, what I think is that the design work is still going on and its not yet finalized.



Actually IRST would make a difference, because you have to check the aerodynamic changes with such an external feature too, not to forget that there will be the fixed refuelling probe which I forgot earlier. Since most main airframe changes are related to the new engine, it is logical that they will wait for the arrival and integration, before the MK2 airframe can be tested. Why should they use the GE 404 engine for example for it, when we know that the performance and size of fuselage and air intakes will be different at the end.
Wrt the radar, it is very likely that it will be tested in a modified test aircraft first and not on an LCA protype like this:









> Between 1996 and 1997, the ASP H-2176 was reconverted into a testbed for the avionics and radar of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Now known as the 'Hack', the only major structural modification besides the removal of the rotodome assembly, was the addition of the LCA's nose cone in order to accomodate the Multi-Mode-Radar (MMR). Special provisions include a GPS based target tracking system, the Sigma-95 INS, a high density data recorder, a mission crew intercom system, ARINC-429 plus MIL-STD-1553B databuses, a dedicated thermal management system and an 120 KVA APU with 115V-400 hz AC, 230V-50 hz AC and 28 DC supplies. The aircraft also hosts 15 consoles with an equal number of operators. The post-processed data from radar testing is analyzed on the ground using the appropriate software tools. Even as the Hack was being configured, some elements of the ASP H-2175, now the only remaining ASP, were still undergoing integration, the fully integrated ASP system ready for demonstration only by August 1998...



India's flying Testbeds


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Actually IRST would make a difference, because you have to check the aerodynamic changes with such an external feature too, not to forget that there will be the fixed refuelling probe which I forgot earlier. Since most main airframe changes are related to the new engine, it is logical that they will wait for the arrival and integration, before the MK2 airframe can be tested. Why should they use the GE 404 engine for example for it, when we know that the performance and size of fuselage and air intakes will be different at the end.
> Wrt the radar, it is very likely that it will be tested in a modified test aircraft first and not on an LCA protype like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's flying Testbeds




That is correct, FLIR and refueling probe are also the part of airframe design and that is what we are discussing here. Obviously they cant test it in GE 404 engine, but is the design is fanalized then they can take an off the shelve F414 engine and start the testing than waiting for the engine delivery. hence it looks like that the design work is still going on and ADA is taking time to deliver that to DRDO, causing a delay from ADA side, which is reason one.

One thing we both can agree here that instead of focusing on MK2 they unnecessarily wasted time on naval prototype and I am sure that is stuck in limbo with that extra weight problem. They (ADA) should have used their resources om MK2 prototype as NLCA is going no where, which is second reason for delay.

So blaming DRDO is not right, we all know in recent times they have been pretty good in keeping timelines.


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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## rockstarIN

^^From the new testing?


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1931 Test Flights successfully. (07-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-234*,PV5-36,*LSP3-72*,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1925 Test Flights successfully. (03-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-230,PV5-36,LSP3-70,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)


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## DANGER-ZONE

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>



Geee .. Dumb bombs ! 
Where are the LGBs ?


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## Black Widow

danger-zone said:


> Geee .. Dumb bombs !
> Where are the LGBs ?




Hmm..... This is Dumb bomb chk...


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## SpArK

danger-zone said:


> Geee .. Dumb bombs !
> Where are the LGBs ?

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## Sergi

SpArK said:


>


Won't be a good sight for enemy 
I think one more can be added to centre , right ???


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## ajtr

INDIAISM said:


> I think the first thing DRDO should do is to stop announcing their future projects and keep these project as secret untill they succeed ......so that their work do the talking......because all these early announcents make DRDO a laughing stock...


they need sanction of funds so they announce new projects and hence keep their job for next 30 yrs.It doesn't matter to them if that project fructify or not coz they get their monthly salary,husing plot,PF benifits along with armed guard and Rs.2 breakfast at ADA..


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## DANGER-ZONE

SpArK said:


>



Ahhh ... Smarty ! 
I was talking about the recent tests of Pokran.


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## SpArK

danger-zone said:


> Ahhh ... Smarty !
> I was talking about the recent tests of Pokran.



Sorry.............. its Classified.


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## Black Widow

ajtr said:


> they need sanction of funds so they announce new projects and hence keep their job for next 30 yrs.It doesn't matter to them if that project fructify or not coz they get their monthly salary,husing plot,PF benifits along with armed guard and Rs.2 breakfast at ADA..




I Disagree, Outside HAL/DRDO we make more money. I get 3-4 times more than any government employee of my experience. I am from normal college, The premier college student get 2-3 times more than me. 

Though I agree with you, to get fund they need to show the plan. Induction depends upon end user. LCA at current configuration is not bad. We all know how Armed forces kill indigenous projects to gain commission. 


The current test photos are not out yet. I think they will be released at FOC, may be in December.


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## rockstarIN

Dont quote the troll


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## sancho

Dash said:


> That is correct, FLIR and refueling probe are also the part of airframe design and that is what we are discussing here. Obviously they cant test it in GE 404 engine, but is the design is fanalized then they can take an off the shelve F414 engine and start the testing than waiting for the engine delivery. hence it looks like that the design work is still going on and ADA is taking time to deliver that to DRDO, causing a delay from ADA side, which is reason one.



FLIR and refuelling pod can be tested easily on current models as well, since the nose section will remain the same and they are not dependent on engine changes. These things just need to be fully developed and integrated, just like the AESA and that remains uncertain so far, while the main design changes of the MK2 are fixed now and as mentioned are just waiting for the engine and fuel tanks to be available.



Dash said:


> One thing we both can agree here that instead of focusing on MK2 they unnecessarily wasted time on naval prototype and I am sure that is stuck in limbo with that extra weight problem. They (ADA) should have used their resources om MK2 prototype as NLCA is going no where, which is second reason for delay.



Both are related anyway, since the additional fuel tanks in MK2 were a prime requirement of the navy anyway. But generally I agree that the NLCA is just a useless distraction from the main development.



Dash said:


> So blaming DRDO is not right, we all know *in recent times they have been pretty good in keeping timelines.*


 
In LCA ? MMR, Kaveri engine, navalising LCA? They are the main contributor for the delays and till they finally get some things done, the delays will just get bigger and bigger.


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## keerthan

Why everyone saying that NLCA is causing delays and distractions.
IN also gave ADA funds and said it wants naval LCA.
But ADA mainly focused on LCA and neglected N-LCA.
Now they are causing delays in both aircrafts.


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## sancho

keerthan said:


> Why everyone saying that NLCA is causing delays and distractions.
> IN also gave ADA funds and said it wants naval LCA.
> But ADA mainly focused on LCA and neglected N-LCA.
> Now they are causing delays in both aircrafts.



IN gave funds to develop a naval version, not for the general LCA project and the delays and distractions are caused because...

...none of our Indian companies had an idea how to navalise the fighter
...DRDO wanted US LM first and then settled with EADS as a partner, although both have limited experience only and Mikoyan would have been the way more logical choice
...by the fact that they needed 2 years to flight test NLCA since roll out, although only the gears were changed in the meantime
...by the different requirements of IN compared to IAF

After all, the outcome of the NLCA development will be a poor carrier fighter and for this goal, the whole project suffers too much!

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## Water Car Engineer

Users Insist On Radical Makeover For Tejas Mk2



> Both the IAF and Indian Navy have also recommended that the projected cockpit of the Tejas Mk2 should offer a range of new and enhanced features such as a centric, modular concept of operation, enabling pilots to control and personalise the displays, applications and information sources. The IAF is believed to have zeroed in earlier this year on the CockpitNG option, which was originally developed by ELBIT Systems for the global F-16 upgrade market, and can be easily sourced from HALBIT Avionics Pvt Ltd, the joint venture between ELBIT Systems and the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). For the CockpitNG, an advanced display fusion engine has been developed, allowing information to be fused in multiple layers, yet displayed in one place. The new capabilities provide pilots with enhanced situational awareness and mission management, reduce pilot workload and support successful achievement of mission goals in all weather conditions. The CockpitNG, which is being shown for the very first time at the Farnborough International Airshow (FIA-2012), comprises a large area panoramic display (LAD), a low-profile head-up display (LPHUD) and the Targo helmet-mounted display/cueing system. New applications are projected on all elements of the CockpitNG, displaying all relevant data while hiding the irrelevant information to prevent overload. The LAD touch-screen offers a unique concept of operation, enabling pilots to personalise their displays, applications and information with a sweep of the finger, according to specific mission requirements. The cutting-edge 3-D map concept of operation, centered in large size, projects a 3-D image of the world, viewing fused information from own-ship sensors and data-link members&#8217; sensors. The projection of fused synthetic and real-time pictures, videos, sensors and information makes any mission possible and supports successful achievement of enhanced mission goals in all weather conditions.



More in the link







*Israeli CockpitNG *










India can source CockpitNG from *HALBIT Avionics Pvt Ltd*, the joint venture between ELBIT Systems and the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

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## ajtr

Black Widow said:


> I Disagree, Outside HAL/DRDO we make more money. I get 3-4 times more than any government employee of my experience. I am from normal college, The premier college student get 2-3 times more than me.
> 
> Though I agree with you, to get fund they need to show the plan. Induction depends upon end user. LCA at current configuration is not bad. *We all know how Armed forces kill indigenous projects to gain commission. *
> 
> 
> The current test photos are not out yet. I think they will be released at FOC, may be in December.


Debatable.Armed forces Says DRDO promises moon without looking into its capabilities and then fails to deliver on time.If you deliver 3rd gen plane in 5th/6th gen period then which air force in the world will buy it to send its pilot on one way suicide mission.


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## jha

The big news is that Vixen-MMR is being favoured by IAF.. However all these should be taken with a ton of salt ..

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## sancho

jha said:


> The big news is that Vixen-MMR is being favoured by IAF.. However all these should be taken with a ton of salt ..



Exactly, not only for the radar which btw was evaluated by IAF during MMRCA and was found to be not good enough, just like other air forces did in similar evaluations, but also in regard of the cockpit display. Elbit did not developed it for F16 upgrades, but for the Super Hornet, which is why the graphic clearly shows an F18:







And there are more mistakes, so as you said one have to be careful with his reports.

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## subincb

LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

from
LCA-Tejas has completed 1931 Test Flights successfully. (07-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,*LSP3-72*,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)


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## Black Widow

I Disagree, Read the initial requirement for LCA and see the final requirement. IAF has taken complete U turn. they changed each and every parameter. This is how development happen for IA and IAF. This is not how it happen in real world. 

Once you freez requirement, you are suppose to take the final product, where as IAF has changed requirement many time. You bring Sukhoi design burue to IAF, IAF will fail them. IAF and IA is piece of sh!t. They just know how to eat commission. 



subincb said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)
> 
> from
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1931 Test Flights successfully. (07-July-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,*LSP3-72*,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)





since month I have not seen any LCA flying in bangalore , where are they?


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## jha

sancho said:


> Exactly, not only for the radar which btw was evaluated by IAF during MMRCA and was found to be not good enough, just like other air forces did in similar evaluations, but also in regard of the cockpit display. Elbit did not developed it for F16 upgrades, but for the Super Hornet, which is why the graphic clearly shows an F18:
> 
> And there are more mistakes, so as you said one have to be careful with his reports.



This is what he says of Vixen-MMR... 


> The Vixen 850e AESA-MMR is derived from the Captor-E AESA-MMR that&#8217;s on the Eurofighter EF-2000 & therefore the Vixen 850e can be looked upon as being a mature product and somewhat superior to what&#8217;s being offered by ELTA Systems, Raytheon & Northrop Grumman. Both the Captor-E & RBE-2 grew out of the common AESA-MMR technology demonstration programme called AMSAR & therefore both are considered mature designs. Consequently, the Vixen 850e, derived from the Captor-E, is an equally mature product & the fact that it comes integrated with the Skyward IRST sensor (which is a derivative of the PIRATE IRST sensor on board the EF-2000) makes it superior to the EL/M-2052, RACR & SABR.


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## sancho

jha said:


> This is what he says of Vixen-MMR...



Yeah I've read that and was amazed when he claimed Captor-E as a mature product, especially when it doesn't exist so far, contrary to especially the US radars, which are derivates of radars that are already in operational service.
Btw, according to Selex Galileo the number in the name of their radars states how many T/R modules the radar has.

Vixen 500 => 500 T/R modules
Vixen 1000 => 1000 T/R modules 
Vixen 850 => 850 T/R modules and if this radar was the base for Gripen NG in the MMRCA trials, it might have been one of the smallest and that could be a reasons for the reported performance issues

Captor E is based on the Vixen 1000, but is estimated with more T/R modules, so even if the Vixen 850 has the same re-positioner design, the performance is way different!
Another point that we have to keep in mind and why this radar design would be a bad choice for LCA is the additional weight that the re-positioner will add. As we all know the fighter already has weight issues, so the logical way should be to limit any additional weight for new techs. For the EF it is stated, that the additional weight of Captor-E with repositioner is so high, that they have to add more weight in the rear part of the fighter, to correct the weight balance again.


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## buddyboyyash

unbiased view on tejas...all goods n bads upto may 2012

July 2012

page number 44

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## sancho

buddyboyyash said:


> unbiased view on tejas...all goods n bads upto may 2012
> 
> July 2012
> 
> page number 44



Interesting, thanks for sharing!

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## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1937 Test Flights successfully. (12-July-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-237*,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,*LSP5-103*,LSP7-4,NP1-4) 

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

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## SamantK

david blain said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1937 Test Flights successfully. (12-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-237*,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,*LSP5-103*,LSP7-4,NP1-4)
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)



You are doing what our friend sudhir007 used to do assidiously..


----------



## david blain

LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights successfully. 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,*LSP3-75*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-105*,LSP7-4,NP1-4) 


FROM 


LCA-Tejas has completed 1937 Test Flights successfully. (12-July-2012). 

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-103,LSP7-4,NP1-4)


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## arp2041

At a time when the US is fast-developing hypersonic bombers capable of flying at 20 times the speed of sound, India's largely home-grown Tejas light combat aircraft will "not be ready to go to war" anytime before 2015.

The latest assessment of Tejas, which has now clocked close to 2,000 flights in its almost three-decade-long developmental saga, holds the light-weight fighter will be capable of firing guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as air-to-air refuelling only by 2015 at the earliest, say defence ministry sources.

That is when the single-engine Tejas will become fully combat-ready after getting the final operational clearance (FOC). The review suggests that the fighter is again headed to miss a deadline in its convoluted tale that began in 1983 as an endeavour to replace the ageing MiG-21s.

So far, Tejas has achieved only initial operational clearance-I (IOC-I) to certify it's airworthiness. "The IOC-II for the fighter, which also includes integration of some weapons like laser-guided bombs, was pushed back to December 2012. But now, it will only be possible by July, 2013, or so after over 200 more sorties. FOC will come only two years after that," said a source.

India will eventually spend over Rs 25,000 crore in the entire Tejas programme, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the failed Kaveri engine, as earlier reported by TOI. But more than the cost, it's the time taken to develop a fully-tested, weapons-ready fighter that underlines how critical defence projects should not be run.

While it is true that developing a supersonic fly-by-wire fighter from scratch was never going to be easy, the entire project could have been managed much better. IAF, on its part, is supporting the fighter programme since it knows the country's need to have indigenous weapon systems is strategically critical.

Plans are underway to upgrade the Sulur airbase in Tamil Nadu, which will house the initial Tejas squadrons inducted in the IOC-II configuration, at a cost of Rs 524 crore. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the more powerful GE F-414 engines. The $822-million deal for 99 GE F-414 engines is likely to be inked soon, with additional engines being ordered at a later stage.

The number of fighter squadrons in IAF will further dip to 31 over the next three to four years with phasing out of the aging MiG variants, further impacting IAF's combat capabilities, before it slowly begins to pick up with new inductions. Projections show IAF will have the required 45 squadrons only by 2032.

Tejas fighter jet won't be combat-ready before 2015 - The Times of India

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## Pak47

More delays?


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## Icewolf

Look at the comments on ToI... Blaming Pakistan for their Tejas jet delaying hahahha

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## Abingdonboy

The biggest mistakes Indians (and others) is not understanding the true success of the LCA program as a whole. From where the Indian aerospace industry was when LCA program started to where it is now is a world apart it is truly amazing what has been acheived by India. The good thing about making a first fighter is you never have to do it again! 


+ I think it is a bit rich for certain members from a certain country to continuously criticise Indian indigence programs when they are doing great work and those members' nation can do nothing but dream of achieving 1/10th of what India has.

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## faithfulguy

Abingdonboy said:


> The biggest mistakes Indians (and others) is not understanding the true success of the LCA program as a whole. From where the Indian aerospace industry was when LCA program started to where it is now is a world apart it is truly amazing what has been acheived by India. The good thing about making a first fighter is you never have to do it again!
> 
> 
> + I think it is a bit rich for certain members from a certain country to continuously criticise Indian indigence programs when they are doing great work and those members' nation can do nothing but dream of achieving 1/10th of what India has.



I thought India had created a fighter back in the 1960s. After this experience with LCA, India should focus on joint ventures such as Brahmos. Hopefully, India is aware of its limitations and start purchasing or joint venture instead of wasting the tax payer's money.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

faithfulguy said:


> I thought India had created a fighter back in the 1960s. After this experience with LCA, India should focus on joint ventures such as Brahmos. Hopefully, India is aware of its limitations and start purchasing or joint venture instead of wasting the tax payer's money.



Marut wasnt an indian product... it was designed by a german...Kurt Tank...also it was a failure.... an under powered jet...


On topic... Nothing new... it was expected..


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## MilSpec

Safriz said:


> There is a difference between being ambitious and being plain stupid...
> Trying to build an advanced fighter infiginously for a country which had no prior expetience of even making a propeller plane,was stupid.



Exactly the reason why pakistan should not undertake such feat, On the other hand LCA project has been responsible for creation of ADA and NAL, which in turn will show their benefits just like ISRO. 

And for sake of comparison, SAAB gripen which came from expertise of SAAB viggen and others still took similar time frame to develop. If you are here to actually learn something, try looking up actual timeframe at which funding began for LCA and compare it to gripen. We have achieved 90% of the goals at fraction of the cost in similar time frame.



Icewolf said:


> THAT BASICALLY PAF has more INDEGINOUS maal than IAF



In your dreams troll

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## Safriz

sandy_3126 said:


> Mig 21's bisons, fuselage modifications
> Mig 21' bisons landing gear assemblies
> Mig 21FL, bis and bisons Radar and power supply system
> Mig 21 bisons kopyo 3 radars were build according to IAF specs
> Mig 21 wing spars were indigenous design and manufactures
> Mig 27's ground mapping radar was indigenous
> Mig 27 upgrade was indigenous
> Su30MKI HUDs and Multi-Function Displays (MFD) are indigenous
> MKI's Canards were specific to IAF's tailor made specs.
> MKI's RWR system is of Indian design, developed by India's DRDO, called Tarang
> Astra brahmos integration into MKI
> French and Isreali avionics intergrations
> Apart from that India License produced
> All the engines on the mentioned system, Which engine have you ever built ?????
> 
> Do you even build the RD33 or it's chinese clone under license or still importing????


 
Hmmm.
Ok that is a long list of indian tweaks in different planes. It was better to do all this in one plane.


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## janon

Safriz said:


> There is a difference between being ambitious and being plain stupid...
> Trying to build an advanced fighter infiginously for a country which had no prior expetience of even making a propeller plane,was stupid.



So we should have made propellor planes for the IAF? Every country has to start somewhere, and it can only start with a product that the end user will want. If the tejas was the IAF's only hope (like thunder is for PAF), then it would have been stupid. But in India's case, we can afford to take our time, because in the meanwhile, we are license manufacturing one of the finest and most sophisticated fighters, and can buy or buy and license make whatever we want. And we have been doing that with MKIs, mirages, and in future, rafales. But the tejas program has to go on, even if it is delayed, to develop a good aerospace industry in India. Today there are hundreds of little companies (other than the mammoth HAL) which supply and make systems and subsystems for tejas and MKIs, and we have a talent pool that we did not have earlier. It was one of the best decisions by the government to try this ambitious project, and despite sanctions, beating all odds, we have succeeded. A lot later than we would like, but we have succeeded in the goal of creating aerospace expertise in the country.

It is not by accident that India is now in a position to dream about designing a 5th gen fighter. It is because we had the vision to continue with our 4th gen project against all odds. And they have delivered a product that actually is comparable to the best light fighters out there. I don't care if it takes 3 more years, because its not like the IAF will die without it. Unlike the PAf, the IAF has options.



Icewolf said:


> THAT BASICALLY PAF has more INDEGINOUS maal than IAF



I asked you a few pointed questions in post #22. Any chance that you will reply? If not, bug off, troll.

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## Icewolf

@janon 

Pakistan is making the KLJ-7 radar by itself


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## Safriz

janon said:


> So we should have made propellor planes for the IAF? Every country has to start somewhere, and it can only start with a product that the end user will want. If the tejas was the IAF's only hope (like thunder is for PAF), then it would have been stupid. But in India's case, we can afford to take our time, because in the meanwhile, we are license manufacturing one of the finest and most sophisticated fighters, and can buy or buy and license make whatever we want. And we have been doing that with MKIs, mirages, and in future, rafales. But the tejas program has to go on, even if it is delayed, to develop a good aerospace industry in India. Today there are hundreds of little companies (other than the mammoth HAL) which supply and make systems and subsystems for tejas and MKIs, and we have a talent pool that we did not have earlier. It was one of the best decisions by the government to try this ambitious project, and despite sanctions, beating all odds, we have succeeded. A lot later than we would like, but we have succeeded in the goal of creating aerospace expertise in the country.
> 
> It is not by accident that India is now in a position to dream about designing a 5th gen fighter. It is because we had the vision to continue with our 4th gen project against all odds. And they have delivered a product that actually is comparable to the best light fighters out there. I don't care if it takes 3 more years, because its not like the IAF will die without it. Unlike the PAf, the IAF has options.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked you a few pointed questions in post #22. Any chance that you will reply? If not, bug off, troll.



Yes Sweden's experence in making Grippen is relevant here.But they made improvements to working planes and replaced one working flying plane with another,Unlike Tejas...
and even they didnt try to do all by themselves,they did take in foreign technologies and modified it to their needs...
Even theit Volvo-RM12 engine for Grippen is a derivative of F-404 instead of trying to reinvent the jet engine as iNdia tried in case of Kaveri and failed...

I think its more of a mismanagement problem than a technological one...
Tejas was a good project but was continuously mismanaged with wrong targets being set,some too ambitious such as trying to make a carbon fiber wing which even the Boeing failed when they tried back then for X-32 JSF


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## Abingdonboy

shahzadasweet said:


> Pls en light us With Ur Knowledge what Goal did they achieved lol as u said its is based on 4.5 genr principal in 1980 are u kidding me the main basic concept of mig 27 but when they wasnt not able to do that so they changed the project a new project and now the backbone was mirage 2000 now the combination of mirage2000 and mig 23 and india is stck their
> 
> Its 1 thing how to bolt market parts to your plain its another thing entirely to understand how the work together


 


Safriz said:


> ^^^actually they didnt try to bolt market parts together and make a plane,same as pakistan did with jf-17.
> Instead they tried to reinvent what was already there and failed...


 


Icewolf said:


> India says Tejas is indigenous but with so many European engineers working on Tejas... chh



As of yet the LCA has not been inducted into the IAF- a damning fact, yes. But ONLY when read out of context. In terms of technology development the project is an outstanding success. The country has mastered FBW FCS with unstable aerodynamics, use of computer-based control of electro mechanical systems,use of composite materials, open architecture avionics with glass cockpit, HUD and HMDS. India is now one of few countries with the infrastructure to devlop and test technologies that go into a fighter. There is but a handful of countries that can boast of such feats-Pakistan is not one of them and you know this is true if you think about it. Could Pakistan make an LCA-like plane in the next 3 decades if it is so easy and India so incompetent? NO, and we ALL know it.


Show me another country who could pull-off similar feats with similar resource constraints, economic/military sanctions, little to no technical base and constantly changing end-user requirements.



Safriz said:


> There is a difference between being ambitious and being plain stupid...
> Trying to build an advanced fighter infiginously for a country which had no prior expetience of even making a propeller plane,was stupid.



Ambitious is a fair analysis but why not? Either go big or go home. It is better to try and fail, than never to have tried at all (and India hasn't failed- far from it).



Thorough Pro said:


> you are not even british but still hiding behind a british flag.


 


UKBengali said:


> As day turns to night, it is obvious that he is Indian.
> 
> Why hide your true identity?



I have never been anything but open about my identidy on this forum and have had stated the nature of my identity numerous times on this site. I am born in UK, hold British citezenship, study here, work here but am of Indian descent- that is all. Just because someone says something you don't like you accuse them of false flagging? The fact is I only really got interested in defence issues a few years ago so have not really been influenced either way, naturally there is going to be some prejudice in some occasions but when it comes to this project I feel I am genuily objective and what India has done in the climate that persisted is truly amazing and deserves recognition not lambasting like you guys who have your own blatant bias and much less objectivity than me.

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## Kompromat

Threads merged.

@OP , why post a new thread when there is a sticky available ?


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## SQ8

*ON THE TOPIC PLEASE.. NO dragging in this or that to a thread that is dedicated to the Tejas.
I have tons of pink gowns sitting with me for those that do.*

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## KRAIT

Can anyone tell about status of indigenous AESA for LCA Mk-II...I think it may be ready by then....


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## SamantK

Oscar said:


> *ON THE TOPIC PLEASE.. NO dragging in this or that to a thread that is dedicated to the Tejas.
> I have tons of pink gowns sitting with me for those that do.*


 Thanks Oscar, for cleaning the mess!


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## subincb

faithfulguy said:


> I thought India had created a fighter back in the 1960s. After this experience with LCA, India should focus on joint ventures such as Brahmos. Hopefully, India is aware of its limitations and start purchasing or joint venture instead of wasting the tax payer's money.


 
The cost incurred for developing Tejas includes all infrastructure for developing and testing of all subsystems, building labs etc etc. Its so cheap comparatively considering the cost of infrastructure whihc can be used in AMCA and is being used for UAV and UCAV and in a way delay produces newer subsystems for LCA including Indigenous AESA Radar. 

Dhruv I< Dhruv II<Dhruv III< Rudra<LCH 1<..... to follow

Arjun 1< Arjun2<...

similarly
Akash1< Akash2 etc

LCA1< LCA2<AMCA<... and it goes on since we build it ourselves.
At any point we stop the project then it is a failure but if it goes on no matter how much we invest it will eventually work out cheaper than buying the worlds best military equipment. And we have advantage of having great relations with all countries who can supply world class addon subsystems to the base platform.

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## black_jack

Indias Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Delayed Until 2015

Indias dreams of flying an indigenously built light combat aircraft will have a wait a while longer as the Tejas fighter jet is not expected to be ready to go to war until 2015.

A recent assessment found the lightweight aircraft, which has flown over 2,000 flights, to be ready in three years and is expected to be capable of firing guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as air-to-air refueling.

The $4.51 billion Tejas project began in 1983 to replace the aging Russian MiG-21s will miss its 2012 deadline as the review refused to issued the final operations clearance (FOC) before it is fully combat-ready.

At present Tejas only has initial operational clearance-I (IOC-I) to certify its airworthiness.

It was recently revealed that the first 20 aircraft will be powered by GE-404 engines while the other six squadrons fly on a more powerful GE-F-414 engine.

The Indian Air Force will see a fall of an additional 31 aircraft in its fighter squadron in the next four years. 

Indias Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Delayed Until 2015 : Defense news


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## arp2041

Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas fitted with an In-Flight Refuelling [IFR] probe

A still rare sight - India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, fitted with an In-Flight Refuelling [IFR] probe.

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## DANGER-ZONE

arp2041 said:


> Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas fitted with an In-Flight Refuelling [IFR] probe
> 
> A still rare sight - India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, fitted with an In-Flight Refuelling [IFR] probe.



Its looks like very first Mock-up, you can fit anything on a model plane easily.


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## DANGER-ZONE

black_jack said:


> India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Delayed Until 2015
> 
> India&#8217;s dreams of flying an indigenously built light combat aircraft will have a wait a while longer as the Tejas fighter jet is not expected to &#8220;be ready to go to war&#8221; until 2015.
> 
> A recent assessment found the lightweight aircraft, which has flown over 2,000 flights, to be ready in three years and is expected to be capable of firing guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as air-to-air refueling.
> 
> The $4.51 billion Tejas project began in 1983 to replace the aging Russian MiG-21s will miss its 2012 deadline as the review refused to issued the final operations clearance (FOC) before it is fully combat-ready.
> 
> At present Tejas only has initial operational clearance-I (IOC-I) to certify its airworthiness.
> 
> It was recently revealed that the first 20 aircraft will be powered by GE-404 engines while the other six squadrons fly on a more powerful GE-F-414 engine.
> 
> The Indian Air Force will see a fall of an additional 31 aircraft in its fighter squadron in the next four years.
> 
> India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Delayed Until 2015 : Defense news



My Indian fellows might not be that much sad or surprised by this news. It was very much expected because the progress of the project is not very satisfying. Sonay pe Suhaga, GOI doesn't seems to be interested in Tejas at all. If GOI drops LCA for IAF/IN and import western jets then they will get handsome amount of COMMISSION to fill their pockets. LCA might still have a future in IN but AHHHH LOOK USA GOT F-35. USA will try its best to drop LCA using your corrupt GOVT and will introduce F-35 for IN to secure DUBTI NAAO of F-35. This is very much possible even if you consider it a CONSPIRACY THEORY.


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## SamantK

danger-zone said:


> My Indian fellows might not be that much sad or surprised by this news. It was very much expected because the progress of the project is not very satisfying. Sonay pe Suhaga, GOI doesn't seems to be interested in Tejas at all. If GOI drops LCA for IAF/IN and import western jets then they will get handsome amount of COMMISSION to fill their pockets. LCA might still have a future in IN but AHHHH LOOK USA GOT F-35. USA will try its best to drop LCA using your corrupt GOVT and will introduce F-35 for IN to secure DUBTI NAAO of F-35. This is very much possible even if you consider it a CONSPIRACY THEORY.



Thanks for putting it so succinctly, somehow in our wisdom could not understand half of what you said.. 

Whether you will like it or not both ways we are winners, however LCA is a worthy project a development delayed only due to mismanagement not for the lack of capability...


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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> My Indian fellows might not be that much sad or surprised by this news. It was very much expected because the progress of the project is not very satisfying. Sonay pe Suhaga, GOI doesn't seems to be interested in Tejas at all. If GOI drops LCA for IAF/IN and import western jets then they will get handsome amount of COMMISSION to fill their pockets. LCA might still have a future in IN but AHHHH LOOK USA GOT F-35. USA will try its best to drop LCA using your corrupt GOVT and will introduce F-35 for IN to secure DUBTI NAAO of F-35. This is very much possible even if you consider it a CONSPIRACY THEORY.



Sorry, but that's just you very unlikely theory, especially since GoI has nothing to do with it here. If you would have read the article, you would have understand that the problem is that IAF is not ready to give LCA the FOC and wants further integration of weapons, systems and flight tests. IAF seems to have a different induction system than other countries have, because they require weapon integrations and stuff before the induction into operational service, while most other countries, including Pakistan inducts such newly developed fighters after IOC and integrates weapons and techs later. When you look at what stuff was already integrated into LCA prototypes (LDP, LGBs, R60 and R73 WVR missiles, most likely Derby BVR missile, HMS), it doesn't fall short to what what PAFs JF 17s can use so far. But somehow they have very high requirements for the induction of the fighter, although it will be the least capable of the fleet anyway.
Add the fact that LCA was developed as a light weight, cost-effective fighter, while F35 is a medium weight, expensive fighter and you know why it doesn't fit the bill anyway.

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## arp2041

sancho said:


> Sorry, but that's just you very unlikely theory, especially since GoI has nothing to do with it here. If you would have read the article, you would have understand that the problem is that IAF is not ready to give LCA the FOC and wants further integration of weapons, systems and flight tests. *IAF seems to have a different induction system than other countries have*, because they require weapon integrations and stuff before the induction into operational service, while most other countries, including Pakistan inducts such newly developed fighters after IOC and integrates weapons and techs later. When you look at what stuff was already integrated into LCA prototypes (LDP, LGBs, R60 and R73 WVR missiles, most likely Derby BVR missile, HMS), it doesn't fall short to what what PAFs JF 17s can use so far. But somehow they have very high requirements for the induction of the fighter, although it will be the least capable of the fleet anyway.
> Add the fact that LCA was developed as a light weight, cost-effective fighter, while F35 is a medium weight, expensive fighter and you know why it doesn't fit the bill anyway.



finally sancho standing for LCA........

+ that's my point, i think IAF is really playing spoiler as far as Tejas is concerned, they have no problem with mig-21s in there inventory but when someone say LCA Tejas, than they have only abuses for it. Really don't understand what's the comparison (even if any) between 3rd gen mig-21 & 4+ gen LCA??


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## DANGER-ZONE

samantk said:


> Thanks for putting it so succinctly, somehow in our wisdom could not understand half of what you said..
> 
> *Whether you will like it or not both ways we are winners*, however LCA is a worthy project a development delayed only due to mismanagement not for the lack of capability...



Loosing a Project after struggling 20+ years isn't really a success and in such case LCA Project will just serve as a basic excremental plane for AMCA. 
and what you couldn't understand is not your fault at all. See, when US ask any GOVT to select their product over competitor product then they give commission to selected corrupt personal for their duties. Those corrupt personal bring unnecessary delays in project which can at least deliver one or half Sqn. to AF for testing & evaluation of operational capabilities. Then one day they will drop the whole project for a good and more powerful American jet. They tried to do the same for JFT but because of a few good personal in PAF they couldn't succeed. That's why the total No. of Blk.52 were reduced TWICE back in 2005-6.
You people wont understand unless you experience it.


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## sancho

KRAIT said:


> Can anyone tell about status of indigenous AESA for LCA Mk-II...I think it may be ready by then....



DRDO says it will come with MK2, while MoD/IAF were searching for co-development partners and didn't stated anything official yet.



arp2041 said:


> finally sancho standing for LCA........
> 
> that's my point, i think IAF is really playing spoiler as far as Tejas is concerned, they have no problem with mig-21s in there inventory but when someone say LCA Tejas, than they have only abuses for it.


 
 That's what I'm saying all the time, that this system must be changed to finally induct MK1, but apart from that IAF as the customer has the right to demand what they really ordered and if the industry messed it up, they have to fix the problems. You wouldn't accept a Tata Nano, when you initially has ordered an Mercedes A Class would you?
So you have to differ between them demanding the power they need for the fighter as initially planned and this unusual induction system!


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> Sorry, but that's just you very unlikely theory, especially since GoI has nothing to do with it here. If you would have read the article, you would have understand that the problem is that IAF is not ready to give LCA the FOC and wants further integration of weapons, systems and flight tests. *IAF seems to have a different induction system than other countries have, because they require weapon integrations and stuff before the induction into operational service, while most other countries, including Pakistan inducts such newly developed fighters after IOC and integrates weapons and techs later.* When you look at what stuff was already integrated into LCA prototypes (LDP, LGBs, R60 and R73 WVR missiles, most likely Derby BVR missile, HMS), it doesn't fall short to what what PAFs JF 17s can use so far. But somehow they have very high requirements for the induction of the fighter, although it will be the least capable of the fleet anyway.
> *Add the fact that LCA was developed as a light weight, cost-effective fighter, while F35 is a medium weight, expensive fighter and you know why it doesn't fit the bill anyway.*



Yes Example is F-35 which has not even completed its weapon trials completely but operational birds have been delivered to USAF, RAF and soon to RNAF. Same happened to PAF F-16 B52 First bird 801 delivered in the last batch because it was going under weapon trials, same will be done with JFT.

But I am talking in IN & IAF perspective, if LCA fails to satisfy even in 2015 and USA offers F-35 for N-LCA alternate the will you still go for N-LCA. No, Of Course.


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## arp2041

sancho said:


> DRDO says it will come with MK2, while MoD/IAF were searching for co-development partners and didn't stated anything official yet.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I'm saying all the time, that this system must be changed to finally induct MK1, but apart from that *IAF as the customer has the right to demand what they really ordered* and if the industry messed it up, they have to fix the problems. You wouldn't accept a Tata Nano, when you initially has ordered an Mercedes A Class would you?
> So you have to differ between them demanding the power they need for the fighter as initially planned and this unusual induction system!



Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........


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## Bobby

If LCA was inducted by IAF and then these trial happen...then nobody would have talked of delay etc.........Making fighter plane first time is not that easy thing at all ..unlike JF17 which was made by China and gave to Pak......and it so half cooked plane that even china never added a signle F17 in its fleet.

Making of LCA is priceless experience for DRDO....it is like how ISRO struggle to establish reliable launch pad but once they did they got more and more successful launch....

I am not disappointing at all....LCA is bigger achievement than PAKFA which will be mainly designed by Russia and India has only 30% role......


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........



That is the case, be it for the radar, for the weight and drag issues, the FCS that wasn't working correctly...all problems of the development, not IAF requirements. IAF just demanded to get them done, that's why Elta in later stages were chosen to help DRDO in the MMR development, why a proven GE engine was chosen to bridge the gap for Kaveri engine, why a more powerful engine was needed to counter the weight and drag issues...
Where they cause delays are the induction and insisting on Kaveri development to remain indigenous, instead of accepting the co-development with Snecma!



Bobby said:


> Making of LCA is priceless experience for DRDO....it is like how ISRO struggle to establish reliable launch pad but once they did they got more and more successful launch....
> 
> I am not disappointing at all....LCA is bigger achievement than PAKFA which will be mainly designed by Russia and India has only 30% role......



On what did DRDO got experience? On failing with their developments, on failing with project management, on giving baseless promises.
We can benefit way more with less involvement in a NG partnership, than developing a current gen fighter alone, especially if we plan it like this. LCA development was the right way to start, but if we want to get better the fast as possible, partnerships and JV are the best way, not wasting time on fully indigenous developments. That's the most important point we learned from LCA development so far!

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## karan.1970

danger-zone said:


> Loosing a Project after struggling 20+ years isn't really a success and in such case LCA Project will just serve as a basic excremental plane for AMCA.
> and what you couldn't understand is not your fault at all. See, when US ask any GOVT to select their product over competitor product then they give commission to selected corrupt personal for their duties. Those corrupt personal bring unnecessary delays in project which can at least deliver one or half Sqn. to AF for testing & evaluation of operational capabilities. Then one day they will drop the whole project for a good and more powerful American jet. They tried to do the same for JFT but because of a few good personal in PAF they couldn't succeed. That's why the total No. of Blk.52 were reduced TWICE back in 2005-6.
> You people wont understand unless you experience it.


Your post seems a little foolish since India has not till date selected a US fighter plane..


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## manofwar

sancho said:


> That is the case, be it for the radar, for the weight and drag issues, the FCS that wasn't working correctly...all problems of the development, not IAF requirements. IAF just demanded to get them done, that's why Elta in later stages were chosen to help DRDO in the MMR development, why a proven GE engine was chosen to bridge the gap for Kaveri engine, why a more powerful engine was needed to counter the weight and drag issues...
> Where they cause delays are the induction and insisting on Kaveri development to remain indigenous, instead of accepting the co-development with Snecma!
> 
> 
> 
> *On what did DRDO got experience? On failing with their developments, on failing with project management, on giving baseless promises.*
> We can benefit way more with less involvement in a NG partnership, than developing a current gen fighter alone, especially if we plan it like this. LCA development was the right way to start, but if we want to get better the fast as possible, partnerships and JV are the best way, not wasting time on fully indigenous developments. That's the most important point we learned from LCA development so far!


I wouldn't say that a light category fighter with RCS 2 m2, such awesome avionics and other components is a failiure
Engine is only one component, there are thousands of others which need to be integrated and developed before the plane can take flight..........
And considering this was only our first real indegenious fighter project, I think that this was a great experience for us.....
Even the Chinese had to struggle a lot with earlier indegenious fighters before coming up with J 10 , without much hassle.
The germans took a huge R and D to create Me 262.
Our people were trying to make a fourth gen fighter with 2/3 of the required funding 15 years too late....


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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> Your post seems a little foolish since India has not till date selected a US fighter plane..



But you have selected a French one... 
However his assumption that the block 52's were reduced due to "stoic" personnel is incorrect.
The whole PAF induction plan took a hit after the 2005 earthquake...
however that is beyond the scope of this topic.

The problem with the Tejas is simple.. its the right thing.. just late.
the IAF has moved beyond it, to better things.. and in a more fluid plan.
What the tejas will serve as now ... apart from being a good second line backbone.. is a project record of what to do .. and what not to do.

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## sancho

manofwar said:


> I wouldn't say that a light category fighter with RCS 2 m2, such awesome avionics and other components is a failiure



If it would have that kind of RCS it would be a failure, but I didn't commented on LCA but on DRDOs developments for the project.



manofwar said:


> Engine is only one component, there are thousands of others which need to be integrated and developed before the plane can take flight..........
> And considering this was only our first real indegenious fighter project, I think that this was a great experience for us.....
> Even the Chinese had to struggle a lot with earlier indegenious fighters before coming up with J 10 , without much hassle.
> The germans took a huge R and D to create Me 262.
> Our people were trying to make a fourth gen fighter with 2/3 of the required funding 15 years too late....



 The same old excuses, either we did it for the first time, or we had too less money, or the US sanctions, but the problem is, none of these reasons caused the management failures of DRDO!
It was their ego that made them develop things alone that they couldn't do and that they bound without any alternatives to the project. They failed in all these fields and that caused all the problems in an otherwise good and important project!

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## Jon Snow

arp2041 said:


> Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........


IAF only changed requirements when they no longer make do with limited requirements. The LCA was initially supposed to enter IAF service in late 90s(that was the promise made by DRDO in the begining - i.e. the mid 80s) and the IAF gave requirements accordingly, however then the LCA got delayed by more than a decade so obviously the IAF requirements also changed. You cant blame the IAF for changing requirements as these requirements are based on threat perception of the 90s and the plane is coming in the 2015. The requirements of any air force are constantly evolving (therefore all planes in any air force need constant upgradation), if a certain amount of time passes then you just cant make do with previous assessments of requirements.
The DRDO is also to blame for this - they delay a project by 15 years and expect the Air Force to take it in without IAF asking for any changes, and then blame the IAF for further delays.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*source: july2012 Geopolitics mag*


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## subincb

http://www.astramwp.com/adminpanel/products/1340011618_180612_IER_InitiationReport.pdf


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## Agnostic_Indian

*DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of
AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on
Tejas Mark 2 as Well*
Posted on: July 23, 2012
The state-
run Defence Research and Development
Organization ( DRDO) have received
sanctions to pursue the second phase of
AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning and
Control System) programme. In a recent
report, DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat has
stated that the project will be called
AEW&CS India and the requisite sanctions
have been granted for the same. Besides, the
homegrown AESA radar will also be
integrated into the Tejas Mark II LCA.
According to DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat,
the AEW&CS project will be developed like
the three Phalcon AEW&C systems acquired
from Israel. Once the full clearance is
acquired, DRDO will be selecting a platform
based upon the radar configuration. DRDO
indicated that the full clearance from the
government is imminent since sanctions
have been given.
Regarding the DRDO strategy, the indigenous
Airborne Warning & Control System
(AWACS) capabilities will be developed
through a two pronged approach. The first
phase will involve the mounting of the
already developed radar system onto the
Embraer aircraft from Brazil. The first of the
three Embraer aircraft will be in India by
this month end.
DRDO Chief Saraswat stated that the first
phase is going smoothly the radar system
will be integrated on the first Embraer
aircraft this month. He added that dummy
radar has already been integrated in Brazil
on the platform and DRDO is satisfied with
all parameters and integration activities of
aircraft. Basically, the first phase of the
AWACS will have surveillance capabilities in
limited sectors with limited endurance
capabilities.
Since two more Embraer aircraft will come
to India next year, the indigenous radars are
also getting ready for integration on them.
DRDO has indicated that the AWACS project
is its priority and that the three Embraer
aircraft with the AWACS systems will be
completely operational by 2014-15,
according to DRDO.
Regarding the AEW&CS India project, DRDO
indicated that it will be developing a
complete 360 degree surveillance system.
The technology which has been realized for
the AWACS programme will be directly
applicable in the second phase of the project.
However, the configuration will be to ensure
that there is 360 degree coverage. Unlike the
phase one system with limited endurance,
this will have larger power and reach in
terms of the surveillance capability.
DRDO Chief VK Saraswat has also divulged
into the details of the indigenously
developed Active Electronically Scanned
Array (AESA) radar in the AEW&CS project.
Hailing the radar as the one the best in the
world, DRDO chief said that it can capture
images and send to the ground control
centers besides incorporating all the features
of an airborne surveillance system. It has
unmatchable resolution, performance and
electronic warfare capability.
The AESA radar is also expected to be
integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA
besides other programmes. DRDO Chief
added that the work is already on and the
Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA
radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the
TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the
same. Apparently, it is now possible to
configure small as well as large AESA radar.
The advantage of AESA is that more power
can be derived if you increase the numbers
of TR modules. DRDOs AESA radar will be of
same size and volume of the present radar
integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work
starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old
radar will be simply replaced by the
indigenous AESA radar.
DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well


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## Nishan_101

In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
Don't mind.


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## subincb

Nishan_101 said:


> In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
> Don't mind.


 
How many Gripen NG you know are inducted in any airforce??


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## Jon Snow

Nishan_101 said:


> In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
> Don't mind.


You're probably right - India might not have a choice in the matter as well. We need a small, yet potent fighter which we hope to get in the Tejas MK2, but going by recent news that even the MK1 is only going to be ready by 2015 - I have lost a lot of faith in the program - When will MK2 first fly? and after first flight there will be hundreds if not thousands of test flights and then IOC and then FOC followed by production - if the project gets delayed even by a couple of years the IAF might have no option but to go for the Gripen. We cant just order more rafales or sukhois because we need a low maintenance, single engined fighter. Already the IAF has far too many twin engine fighters in the sukhoi, Rafales, mig 29s , and later PAK FA, the only single engine fighter remaining soon will be the mirage 2000 and the IAF cannot afford to fly a fleet with all heavies. This is the reason why the Tejas is so important but if it continues to dissapoint, the IAF will have no choice but to go for a different single engine, cheap to operate fighter and the only one meeting this requirement is the Gripen NG

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## subincb

Jon Snow said:


> You're probably right - India might not have a choice in the matter as well. We need a small, yet potent fighter which we hope to get in the Tejas MK2, but going by recent news that even the MK1 is only going to be ready by 2015 - I have lost a lot of faith in the program - When will MK2 first fly? and after first flight there will be hundreds if not thousands of test flights and then IOC and then FOC followed by production - if the project gets delayed even by a couple of years the IAF might have no option but to go for the Gripen. We cant just order more rafales or sukhois because we need a low maintenance, single engined fighter. Already the IAF has far too many twin engine fighters in the sukhoi, Rafales, mig 29s , and later PAK FA, the only single engine fighter remaining soon will be the mirage 2000 and the IAF cannot afford to fly a fleet with all heavies. This is the reason why the Tejas is so important but if it continues to dissapoint, the IAF will have no choice but to go for a different single engine, cheap to operate fighter and the only one meeting this requirement is the Gripen NG


 
Gripen NG is not gonna be ready until 2017 as their initial estimate and recently I read somewhere its gonna be 2020. By then for sure Tejas -II will be up and running. BVR, Wake penetration and most of the nagging issues are gonna be done at Tejas mark I itself. Only AESA which is under development might be a problem and since it may just be antennae change with the MMR in production Tejas(not the elta 2032 processor but MMR-III which is getting ready), shouldn't be a problem. We mostly will pick IRST off the self


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## Nishan_101

Jon Snow said:


> You're probably right - India might not have a choice in the matter as well. We need a small, yet potent fighter which we hope to get in the Tejas MK2, but going by recent news that even the MK1 is only going to be ready by 2015 - I have lost a lot of faith in the program - When will MK2 first fly? and after first flight there will be hundreds if not thousands of test flights and then IOC and then FOC followed by production - if the project gets delayed even by a couple of years the IAF might have no option but to go for the Gripen. We cant just order more rafales or sukhois because we need a low maintenance, single engined fighter. Already the IAF has far too many twin engine fighters in the sukhoi, Rafales, mig 29s , and later PAK FA, the only single engine fighter remaining soon will be the mirage 2000 and the IAF cannot afford to fly a fleet with all heavies. This is the reason why the Tejas is so important but if it continues to dissapoint, the IAF will have no choice but to go for a different single engine, cheap to operate fighter and the only one meeting this requirement is the Gripen NG


 
I think IAF might get ready the HAL for some 50 Grippen NG assembly and 50 direct from Sweden. I am sure that there are successful flight test going on and you can also guess from the recent visit of *"DRDO chief visit to Sweden and having a flight in NG"* means that there has some great progress. Although if IAF denied it then it might be possible that PAF would look towards it. One thing everyone missed i.e: EF-2000 I am sure there is something fishy too.


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## sudhir007

Tejas MK-2 to get AESA radar | idrw.org

Aesa Radar development for Tejas MK-2 is in full swing but testing and certification might take some few more years and radar will be ready for the first batch of Tejas MK-2 , and will come in later batches of the aircraft as per DRDO sources .

Tejas MK-1 carries Pulse-Doppler Multi-Mode Radar which is integrate to Hybrid version of the EL/M-2032 radar with locally developed radar systems , this radar will be in first 40 aircraft&#8217;s ordered by Indian air force in Tejas MK-1 batch and even in first few aircraft of Tejas MK-2 will carry same radar before both Tejas MK-1 and MK-2 radars are replaced by new AESA radar .

New AESA will be have many of similar components of current radar and come in similar dimension to current MMR radar , But defence experts Rakesh sharma is skeptical on DRDO&#8217;s claims , &#8221; DRDO still has not declared who will be its technical partner in AESA radar development yet , under whom they were supposed to develop first 10 prototype radars under a technical partner &#8221; and adds &#8220;Aesa might come in later batches rather then in first few aircraft&#8217;s&#8221;

Sources close to idrw.org have informed that first Tejas MK-2 will be ready by end of 2014 and will be ready for first flight in 2014 , new higher thrust engines from GE for Tejas MK-2 will start arriving in late 2013 and integration will happen by 2014 .Tejas MK-2 will carry new Avionics and new cockpit layout and development has already started and work on first air frame for Tejas MK-2 will start in 2013 .

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## Nishan_101

But I am sure that 100 Gripen NG along with 51 more Mirage 2000 from France will come with upgrades.


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## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> But I am sure that 100 Gripen NG along with 51 more Mirage 2000 from France will come with upgrades.



Just that Gripen NG will only come at the time when LCA MK2 comes, that's why Swiss might get older Gripen C/Ds as stopgaps and Mirage 2000 is not in production anymore. So both are no option, instead of LCA.


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## Nishan_101

sancho said:


> Just that Gripen NG will only come at the time when LCA MK2 comes, that's why Swiss might get older Gripen C/Ds as stopgaps and Mirage 2000 is not in production anymore. So both are no option, instead of LCA.



I mean to say that Mirage 2000 from FAF and they will going to upgrade it like the IAF ones.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> Just that Gripen NG will only come at the time when LCA MK2 comes, that's why Swiss might get older Gripen C/Ds as stopgaps and Mirage 2000 is not in production anymore. So both are no option, instead of LCA.


That's assuming that the LCA MK2 comes on time - I think its a matter of one more delay(very likely because its HAL we're dealing with here) and the Gripen NG might be ordered - we wont even have to conduct trials before buying as trials are already over.


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## Nishan_101

Jon Snow said:


> That's assuming that the LCA MK2 comes on time - I think its a matter of one more delay(very likely because its HAL we're dealing with here) and the Gripen NG might be ordered - we wont even have to conduct trials before buying as trials are already over.


I am quite sure that IAF will going to place an order for 40-60 Grippen NG very soon and the Saab will going to bring it out in coming years may be in 2013/2014 along with the IAF being supplied with the new batch. Although there is some chance that Mirage2000 from FAF can be a part of IAF as well along with Grippen as IAF love this. But I am sure for Grippen.


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> I am quite sure that IAF will going to place an order for 40-60 Grippen NG very soon and the Saab will going to bring it out in coming years may be in 2013/2014 along with the IAF being supplied with the new batch. Although there is some chance that Mirage2000 from FAF can be a part of IAF as well along with Grippen as IAF love this. But I am sure for Grippen.



Like I said in the other thread- NOT going to happen! IAF has already said it is looking to reduce varety in fleet, adding more of different types is more than absurd especially a type like Gripen that failed fair and square in MMRCA.


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## subincb

not the best of the news. I was a supporter of HAL till this. I guess I need to change my stance.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/115477337653794596531/posts/3BMVLgfmJLS


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## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> I mean to say that Mirage 2000 from FAF and they will going to upgrade it like the IAF ones.



They are not going to be upgraded to 2K-5 standard, France is only upgrading their Mirage D and N strike fighters, so these are useless for IAF as well.



Jon Snow said:


> That's assuming that the LCA MK2 comes on time - I think its a matter of one more delay(very likely because its HAL we're dealing with here) and the Gripen NG might be ordered - we wont even have to conduct trials before buying as trials are already over.



Similarly, what tells you that Gripen NG comes in time? During MMRCA they told us it will be ready till 2015, now they tell the Swiss that it will be available only by 2017/18 and that they can have 2nd hand C/Ds for the meantime. The first real Gripen NG prototype will fly only next year, initially planned early this year, all this while Gripen productionline is going to it's end.

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## DANGER-ZONE

subincb said:


> not the best of the news. I was a supporter of HAL till this. I guess I need to change my stance.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/115477337653794596531/posts/3BMVLgfmJLS




*IAF Declines to Induct Tejas LCA LSP Aircraft*

IDP Sentinel has learn't that the IAF has declined to induct the Tejas LCA LSP aircraft because they don't conform to IOC. 

This hasn't been reported in the Indian press. 

IAF now plans to raise its first squadron using the Series Production (SP) variants of the aircraft, manufacture of which is yet to start.

Which means several statements made by DRDO Chief VK Saraswat that the first IAF Tejas squadron will be raised this year (He even mentioned June once) were speculative.

One of the reasons why ADA and HAL are having a hard time obtaining IOC-2 on the Tejas Mk-1 is because HAL has been manufacturing the 4th Gen Tejas using 2 Gen manufacturing techniques.

Because HAL's manufacturing process is outdated, variations between copies of Tejas aircraft are larger than can be accommodated by the FBW control system.

Because of weight creep, the C of G of the Tejas is now significantly behind its C of P (Center of Pressure, where the lift acts) making it very unstable aircraft. Indeed, the Tejas is the most unstable fighter in the world.

Tejas's instability increases with the AOA, pushing its FBW system to its limit. Poor manufacture aggravates the problem at high AOA, which is why the aircraft has not yet met IAF QRs on AOA.

Hopefully, HAL will SP aircraft will conform to more stringent manufacturing standards, allowing for AOA expansion.

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## SBD-3

DRDO's new lollypop...........


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## BlueDot_in_Space

danger-zone said:


> *IAF Declines to Induct Tejas LCA LSP Aircraft*
> 
> IDP Sentinel has learn't that the IAF has declined to induct the Tejas LCA LSP aircraft because they don't conform to IOC.
> 
> This hasn't been reported in the Indian press.
> 
> IAF now plans to raise its first squadron using the Series Production (SP) variants of the aircraft, manufacture of which is yet to start.
> 
> Which means several statements made by DRDO Chief VK Saraswat that the first IAF Tejas squadron will be raised this year (He even mentioned June once) were speculative.
> 
> One of the reasons why ADA and HAL are having a hard time obtaining IOC-2 on the Tejas Mk-1 is because HAL has been manufacturing the 4th Gen Tejas using 2 Gen manufacturing techniques.
> 
> Because HAL's manufacturing process is outdated, variations between copies of Tejas aircraft are larger than can be accommodated by the FBW control system.
> 
> Because of weight creep, the C of G of the Tejas is now significantly behind its C of P (Center of Pressure, where the lift acts) making it very unstable aircraft. Indeed, the Tejas is the most unstable fighter in the world.
> 
> Tejas's instability increases with the AOA, pushing its FBW system to its limit. Poor manufacture aggravates the problem at high AOA, which is why the aircraft has not yet met IAF QRs on AOA.
> 
> Hopefully, HAL will SP aircraft will conform to more stringent manufacturing standards, allowing for AOA expansion.



load of bull **** by thakur. No authority in its right mind will give Certificate of Airworthiness (CoA) to LSPs if their are serious design variations and if such a serious problem of unpredictable CG exists for the LSPs. Heck, tejas cg locations changes during flight as the fuel is consumed and designers have taken care of that by pumping fuel to different sections in flight to maintain the desired cg position from the neutral point. CEMILAC and ASTE give CoA only after the prototypes passes all the stringent requirements of design, flight controls etc.

2nd generation manufacturing?? I think thakur is still living in its old days? he should visit HAlmanufacturing units for MKI, Dhruv etc. I didnt know that Use of composites in aircraft frame is a 2nd gen technology.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Knowledge wealth generated by LCA program*


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## SamantK

INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF LINE REPLACEABLE UNITS (LRUs) FOR LCA-TEJAS


ADA is the Nodal agency involved in the design and development of Tejas Aircraft along with HAL as a principal partner and in coordination with nearly 100 work centres spread across the country. The Tejas development program is in advanced stage, completed Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) requirements and marching towards final operation clearance (FOC). Tejas has completed over 2000 flights so far and continuing system performance and evaluation towards reaching Final Operational Clearance (FOC). There are 358 LRU's (Components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53% of total LRU's are indigenously developed with in India. In view to reduce the remaining 47% of the import LRU's, ADA has initiated the Indigenous development programme for indigenization of the import LRU's.
The List of Components (LRU's) which belong to different systems of Aircraft, ADA is looking to indigenous is given in the table below.

First Source: AA Me, IN: Imported components used in the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, to be taken up for indigenisation

Since the site is not opening now, here is the actual link

http://www.ada.gov.in/ADA-IND.pdf

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## BlueDot_in_Space

LCA composite % comparison with other planes







source: Boeing (2007)

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## Boson

^^ So, only 3 planes have a higher composite content than LCA: Eurofighter, 787 and AH-66.

Good.


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## subincb

no news from LCA. No ones seen it flying in Bangalore. Any one with any updates?


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## rockstarIN

subincb said:


> no news from LCA. No ones seen it flying in Bangalore. Any one with any updates?



LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights Successfully. (12-July-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-105,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1840 Test Flights Successfully. (30-April-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-340,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)


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## subincb

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights Successfully. (12-July-2012).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-105,LSP7-4,NP1-4)
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1840 Test Flights Successfully. (30-April-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-340,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)


 
That was in July 12 and this is August 22. No one has seen it flying in Bangalore, no updates about any tests for over a month(wake penetration, Bvr and if news is to be believed Lightening and weight distribution issues for whole plane etc), plus LSP 8 not flying yet.


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## cloud_9

*India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft Prepares For Operational Clearance*


> NEW DELHI &#8212; India&#8217;s indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is likely to win its final operational service clearance, following testing as part of an air exercise in February.
> 
> The single-seat, single-engine supersonic fighter will be put to the test during the &#8220;Iron Feast&#8221; exercise to be held in Pokhran in the western Indian state of Rajasthan.
> 
> &#8220;The Tejas will display its capabilities in the exercise, where its lethality, endurance and precision will be tested, and if the aircraft meets all parameters, its first squadron will be deployed in Bengaluru,&#8221; says Air Marshal Anjan Kumar Gogoi, chief of Southwestern Air Command.
> 
> The Tejas is designed to carry air-to-air, air-to-surface, precision-guided and standoff weaponry.
> 
> As of March, the LCA had undergone more than 1,816 test flights up to speeds of Mach 1.4. Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-1) was achieved in January 2011. According to the Indian defense ministry, the Tejas has undertaken weapon trials, including flights with a laser-guided bomb. Various sensor trials also were conducted early this year. All told, the Tejas program has clocked 1,903 flights, totaling 1,120 hr.
> 
> The Indian air force (IAF), which has ordered 40 Tejas Mk-1s from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), has begun to induct the LCA, according to a ministry official. Out of the 40 aircraft, 20 were ordered under the IOC standards, with the rest under Final Operational Clearance standards. IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons over the next 10 years, the official adds.
> 
> The first two squadrons, comprising 40 aircraft, will have first-generation Mk. 1 fighters. The additional four squadrons would be more-powerful Tejas Mk. 2s. The final price tag of the Mk. 2 only will be available after its development phase is complete , the official says.
> 
> The LCA&#8217;s design and development program is being led by the Aeronautical Development Agency, with HAL as the prime contractor.
> 
> The Indian government so far has approved 118.45 billion rupees ($2.1 billion) for the development of the Tejas, of which 50.51 billion rupees has been spent, the official says.

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## INDIAISM

I think HAL should field trainer version of LCA Tejas for *T-X Program {6 to 20 billion $ deal}* in which U.S require 300-1000 Next Gen Advance Trainers for its airforce and Navy....It will perfectly fill the requirements of *T-X Program* like 

a}Bidder to have fighter/attack variant...aerial refueling,night vission imaging system,sustain high G operation,air to air intercept.......

b}It will be the only bidder in the deal which can land on Aircraft Carrier.....

c}We are already using U.S engine in this platform....

d}It will be a huge boost for Defence relation between U.S and India....

*IF BY* chance this deal go through *{That to If HAL part in this Deal}*...It will provide a very huge boost to our defence aviation industry.....


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## sancho

INDIAISM said:


> I think HAL should field trainer version of LCA Tejas



We should finally induct it into service in IAF, anything else is unimportant!

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## Gessler

Boson said:


> ^^ So, only 3 planes have a higher composite content than LCA: Eurofighter, 787 and AH-66.
> 
> Good.



Two of those three are non-fighter tyoes. AH-66 is a combat helo and 787 is a jet airliner, only Typhoon is left. Among these the R/AH-66 "Comanche" is however a cancelled project so only 2 other ac are gonna be around with a higher composite %age, and only 1 is a fighter among those 2.

Mk-2 LCA might well end up with far higher percentage of composites + RAM than Typhoon, EF-2000's present RCS with an absolute clean load is told to be around 0.8^2. Imagine what would be Mk-2 LCA's radar cross section (clean) in that regard...LCA is much smaller, could have higher %age of composites, addition of RAM, and with no canards to increase RCS while maneuvering.

I'd expect around 0.5^2 or lesser.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> We should finally induct it into service in IAF, anything else is unimportant!



Correct.

because the timeline for which its usefulness to the IAF with its planned force makeup will still be significant is closing up now.
this aircraft was supposed to have been operational five years ago.
Those mig-21's have given enough already...

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## holysaturn

INDIAISM said:


> I think HAL should field trainer version of LCA Tejas for *T-X Program {6 to 20 billion $ deal}* in which U.S require 300-1000 Next Gen Advance Trainers for its airforce and Navy....It will perfectly fill the requirements of *T-X Program* like
> 
> a}Bidder to have fighter/attack variant...aerial refueling,night vission imaging system,sustain high G operation,air to air intercept.......
> 
> b}It will be the only bidder in the deal which can land on Aircraft Carrier.....
> 
> c}We are already using U.S engine in this platform....
> 
> d}It will be a huge boost for Defence relation between U.S and India....
> 
> *IF BY* chance this deal go through *{That to If HAL part in this Deal}*...It will provide a very huge boost to our defence aviation industry.....


yes i too wish the same ,if we could have operationalised lca a trainer sale could have been possible but HAL is not as agressive as KAI or alenia or BAE to market it to USA .........


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## sudhir007

Tejas IOC pushed back to 2013 | idrw.org

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for India&#8217;s locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been further delayed to mid-2013, postponing its active squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) to 2015, if not beyond.

Officials said the LCA was expected to obtain full IOC after participating in the IAF&#8217;s &#8216;Iron Fist&#8217; air exercises at Pokhran in the Rajasthan desert in February 2013.

&#8220;Tejas will display its capabilities during the exercise when its [weapon] lethality and precision will be tested,&#8221; Air Marshal Anjan Kumar Gogoi of South Western Command said on 24 August.

IAF officials estimate the single-engine LCA will eventually secure IOC by mid-2013, with final operational clearance (FOC) following in 2015.

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## INDIAISM

^^I think all those people who are incharge for Ioc and Foc of LCA Tejas should be forced to fly Mig21 or Mig27 till FOC of Lca Tejas......Yaar mazaak bna ker rakh diya hai inhone........I don't know why don't they understand the value of life that we are putting at risk due to these 50 year old fighters {Mig21}


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## Nishan_101

sudhir007 said:


> Tejas IOC pushed back to 2013 | idrw.org
> 
> The initial operational clearance (IOC) for Indias locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been further delayed to mid-2013, postponing its active squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) to 2015, if not beyond.
> 
> Officials said the LCA was expected to obtain full IOC after participating in the IAFs Iron Fist air exercises at Pokhran in the Rajasthan desert in February 2013.
> 
> Tejas will display its capabilities during the exercise when its [weapon] lethality and precision will be tested, Air Marshal Anjan Kumar Gogoi of South Western Command said on 24 August.
> 
> IAF officials estimate the single-engine LCA will eventually secure IOC by mid-2013, with final operational clearance (FOC) following in 2015.


 
Some says that $20 Billion 200 Rafaels deals is to replace MiG-23/27s and add capability but some says its due to MiG-21s. But I say that its only *to replace MiG-23/27s and add capability.* on which all the INDIANs will agree. Although there will some delays in LCA for that I am sure Grippen NG can be a better option to adopt like having 80-120 in two phases???







INDIAISM said:


> ^^I think all those people who are incharge for Ioc and Foc of LCA Tejas should be forced to fly Mig21 or Mig27 till FOC of Lca Tejas......Yaar mazaak bna ker rakh diya hai inhone........I don't know why don't they understand the value of life that we are putting at risk due to these 50 year old fighters {Mig21}


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## arp2041

Nishan_101 said:


> Some says that $20 Billion 200 Rafaels deals is to replace MiG-23/27s and add capability but some says its due to MiG-21s. But I say that its only *to replace MiG-23/27s and add capability.* on which all the INDIANs will agree. Although there will some delays in LCA for that I am sure Grippen NG can be a better option to adopt like having 80-120 in two phases???



Yes, Rafale will be for the MMRCA requirement of the IAF, currently it is for 126 Rafales but follow on order will make it an upward figure of 200 + IMO, any further delay in LCA will force the IAF to increase the no. of Rafales procured even though the weight category of the two differ. I think this can change the figure to 250+ just for the IAF (maybe 50+ more for IN). 

No, the delay in LCA does not mean IAF going for Gripen NG, it will certainly not like to add another foreign aircraft to it's inventory & making it a logistical nightmare (esp. when many systems of it are imported from US).


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## Nishan_101

arp2041 said:


> Yes, Rafale will be for the MMRCA requirement of the IAF, currently it is for 126 Rafales but follow on order will make it an upward figure of 200 + IMO, any further delay in LCA will force the IAF to increase the no. of Rafales procured even though the weight category of the two differ. I think this can change the figure to 250+ just for the IAF (maybe 50+ more for IN).
> 
> No, the delay in LCA does not mean IAF going for Gripen NG, it will certainly not like to add another foreign aircraft to it's inventory & making it a logistical nightmare (esp. when many systems of it are imported from US).


 
Man I am not misleading the post. But see some sign there:
DRDO chief does sortie in Gripen - SP's Aviation
*June 04, 2012 : A week after IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne did a sortie in a French Air Force Rafale at the Saint-Dizier air force base in France, DRDO chief Dr V.K. Saraswat was flown in the Gripen NG fighter at the Malmen air base near Linköping, Sweden during an air show.
While the Rafale has been chosen by the Indian Government in the massive MMRCA competition, the Gripen was one of the four aircraft that was knocked out of the competition last year. It is unclear what Dr Saraswat's sortie was about and whether it had anything to do with the Gripen platform itself. Dr Saraswat was in Sweden to attend the Aerospace Forum Sweden, where he gave a detailed presentation on India's unmanned technologies and ongoing projects. "By 2030, the percentage of the manned fleet will be reduced significantly. But it depends very much on how smart and intelligent we can make these systems," he said. Dr Saraswat highlighted the Nishant UAV, Rustom-1 MALE UAV and, significantly, the IUSAV (Indian unmanned strike air vehicle)the country's classified UCAV programme, based on a stealth flying wing design similar to existing stealth UCAVs like the Neuron and Taranis. Dr Saraswat said the IUSAV would enter service in 10-15 years, and would operate alongside a solar-powered HALE UAV under development with HAL.*


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## Nishan_101




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## arp2041

Nishan_101 said:


> Man I am not misleading the post. But see some sign there:
> DRDO chief does sortie in Gripen - SP's Aviation
> *June 04, 2012 : A week after IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne did a sortie in a French Air Force Rafale at the Saint-Dizier air force base in France, DRDO chief Dr V.K. Saraswat was flown in the Gripen NG fighter at the Malmen air base near Linköping, Sweden during an air show.
> While the Rafale has been chosen by the Indian Government in the massive MMRCA competition, the Gripen was one of the four aircraft that was knocked out of the competition last year. It is unclear what Dr Saraswat's sortie was about and whether it had anything to do with the Gripen platform itself. Dr Saraswat was in Sweden to attend the Aerospace Forum Sweden, where he gave a detailed presentation on India's unmanned technologies and ongoing projects. "By 2030, the percentage of the manned fleet will be reduced significantly. But it depends very much on how smart and intelligent we can make these systems," he said. Dr Saraswat highlighted the Nishant UAV, Rustom-1 MALE UAV and, significantly, the IUSAV (Indian unmanned strike air vehicle)&#8212;the country's classified UCAV programme, based on a stealth flying wing design similar to existing stealth UCAVs like the Neuron and Taranis. Dr Saraswat said the IUSAV would enter service in 10-15 years, and would operate alongside a solar-powered HALE UAV under development with HAL.*




so what do u mean?? does flying in an aircraft means buying the same?? It was just a sortie nothing else, don't read too much into it. DRDO chief may be assessing important systems of the aircraft since it is very much of the same weight category & role to that of the LCA, it can help us in our LCA program, nothing wrong in knowing the experience of others.


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## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> Although there will some delays in LCA for that I am sure Grippen NG can be a better option to adopt like having 80-120 in two phases???



You asked the same things some month ago, but the answer is still the same, Gripen E/F will not be available before 2018, while the first LCA and Rafales will arrive around 2014. 
LCA MK2 will have similar features as the Gripen E/F and close to Gripen E/Fs performance in many fields, so why should IAF wait longer for a fighter that don't offer much more? Rafale is ready now, can be inducted faster and is more capable than the Gripen as well, so it adds numerous of advantages for India, next to LCA!

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## chairborne ranger

Nishan_101 said:


> Man I am not misleading the post. But see some sign there:
> DRDO chief does sortie in Gripen - SP's Aviation
> *June 04, 2012 : A week after IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne did a sortie in a French Air Force Rafale at the Saint-Dizier air force base in France, DRDO chief Dr V.K. Saraswat was flown in the Gripen NG fighter at the Malmen air base near Linköping, Sweden during an air show.
> While the Rafale has been chosen by the Indian Government in the massive MMRCA competition, the Gripen was one of the four aircraft that was knocked out of the competition last year. It is unclear what Dr Saraswat's sortie was about and whether it had anything to do with the Gripen platform itself. Dr Saraswat was in Sweden to attend the Aerospace Forum Sweden, where he gave a detailed presentation on India's unmanned technologies and ongoing projects. "By 2030, the percentage of the manned fleet will be reduced significantly. But it depends very much on how smart and intelligent we can make these systems," he said. Dr Saraswat highlighted the Nishant UAV, Rustom-1 MALE UAV and, significantly, the IUSAV (Indian unmanned strike air vehicle)the country's classified UCAV programme, based on a stealth flying wing design similar to existing stealth UCAVs like the Neuron and Taranis. Dr Saraswat said the IUSAV would enter service in 10-15 years, and would operate alongside a solar-powered HALE UAV under development with HAL.*


 
this has nothing to do with the lca programme. please create seperate thread , if it hasnt been posted before


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## Gessler

@Nishan 101

Stop flooding LCA thread with Gripen ****.

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## rockstarIN

There is no flight update details on ADA web site for quite long time. 

And its getting ready to enter in full service in Feb 2013..

Any news about Radar-BVR integration? is it R-77 or ?


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## Nishan_101

sancho said:


> You asked the same things some month ago, but the answer is still the same, Gripen E/F will not be available before 2018, while the first LCA and Rafales will arrive around 2014.
> LCA MK2 will have similar features as the Gripen E/F and close to Gripen E/Fs performance in many fields, so why should IAF wait longer for a fighter that don't offer much more? Rafale is ready now, can be inducted faster and is more capable than the Gripen as well, so it adds numerous of advantages for India, next to LCA!


 
So it means looking in to 60 EF-2000s


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## Gessler

rockstar said:


> There is no flight update details on ADA web site for quite long time.
> 
> And its getting ready to enter in full service in Feb 2013..
> 
> Any news about Radar-BVR integration? is it R-77 or ?



LCA will participate in firepower exercises in Feb. Induction will be by mid-2013.



Nishan_101 said:


> So it means looking in to 60 EF-2000s



Are you mad? India is gonna buy NO other European ac except Rafale. Its a
logistics nightmare having different ac fulfilling the same role from different countries.

IAF is not PAF to buy FC-20 when you already have its American counterpart F-16C.


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## Sergi

Nishan_101 said:


> So it means looking in to 60 EF-2000s


hahahahaha let me put it in other words
- INDIA will only buy Rafale now
- NO Gripen No EF 

And for the pics you posted it has nothing to do with IAF purchases. DRDO cheif don't have anything to say in IAF purchases. It's IAF and MOD only
But you can say DRDO cheif is having fun


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> There is no flight update details on ADA web site for quite long time.
> 
> And its getting ready to enter in full service in Feb 2013..
> 
> Any news about Radar-BVR integration? *is it R-77 or* ?



Not necessarily, the last weapon trials were done from INS Hansa which operates Sea Harriers with EL 2032 and Derby missiles as well. Since both forces have decided to use Derby and since it's still not clear if LCA MK1 uses the EL 2032 or indigenous MMR, I would bet on the Israeli systems.


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## Hasham.ghega111

so indian air force is going to buy Gripen NG


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## Abingdonboy

Hasham.ghega111 said:


> so indian air force is going to buy Gripen NG



NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!N O!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!N O!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!N O!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO !NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!




















Clear enough?

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## chairborne ranger

Hasham.ghega111 said:


> so indian air force is going to buy Gripen NG



dammit boss military technology spam karke man nahin bhara?


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Not necessarily, the last weapon trials were done from INS Hansa which operates Sea Harriers with EL 2032 and Derby missiles as well. Since both forces have decided to use Derby and since it's still not clear if LCA MK1 uses the EL 2032 or indigenous MMR, I would bet on the Israeli systems.



There is an advertisement for inviting vendors for the production of foreign components of LCA to produce in India in ADA website.

This includes MMR switches too.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*From NAL annual report:* The laboratory received a Rs. 60-crore purchase order from HAL, Bangalore, for the supply of twenty sets of 13 critical CFC *components for series production of LCA-Tejas aircraft*; the order is being executed through M/s Tata Advanced Materials Ltd.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*From NAL annual report: *The National Control Law team jointly with the different groups of FMCD, CSIR-NAL continued to play a leadership role in the activities related to the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) control laws of the LCA-Tejas. airforce fighter variant. A simulation model of the fighter aircraft was developed incorporating the rigid body dynamics (airframe split into seven components), air data system and flight control laws to clear LCA-Tejas for wake penetration. The flight model was embedded into the Engineer-inLoop Simulator at NAL for pilots to practice the flight test profiles for wake penetration trials. The simulator was also used for evaluations of
the auto-throttle mode, the Autopilot and high Angle-of-Attack studies; Figure attached shows the Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (FLOLS) incorporated in the visuals for LCA Navy variant simulation.


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## India defense

Currently any test is going on or not......


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## arp2041

*LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar*

Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.

Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.

Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent. First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013 and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.

Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar

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## Gessler

arp2041 said:


> *LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar*
> 
> Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.
> 
> Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.
> 
> Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent. First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013 and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.
> 
> Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar



Yes I also learnt from a few insider sources on IDF that MK-2 LCA will have indigenous AESA, not the
Vixen-850e.









^^From Astra Microwave Ltd. Column #4.

Experimental T/R modules for X-band AESA *already* supplied for testing!

Astra Microwave Products Pvt. Ltd. is a Hyderabad-based private electronics company that works in
collaboration with DRDO for radars and electronic warfare systems.

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## subincb

Suman sharma did not listen to Saraswat's interview. He clearly said LCA mark II will have nothing but indigenous AESA. It will have the same dimensions as the MMR and can be replaced even if its delayed by some time. they had already developed a TR module 1/8th the size of current one for this. Expect back end to be Elta 2032 one at least for some time. I read somewhere that production LCA will have back end Indian one and 2032 out. Can some one confirm this.


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## sancho

subincb said:


> Suman sharma did not listen to Saraswat's interview. He clearly said LCA mark II will have nothing but indigenous AESA.



The problem is only, that he is far away from beeing a reliable source! He is just promoting the work of DRDO, no matter how good or bad it really is. They didn't have the puls doppler MMR for LCA ready by now and you really think that they will provide a useful AESA till 2015 when the production of the first LCAs and N-LCAs should start?
Guess why MoD/IAF considered about a partnership with an international partner, preferably ELTA?
So lets leave the hot air of DRDO and the media speculation out of this, cause from the current point, we only know that it will be a multi mode radar, but not of what kind!


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## Abingdonboy

arp2041 said:


> *LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar*
> 
> Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.
> 
> Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.
> 
> Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent.* First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013* and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.
> 
> Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar



This should be good to see-hope they stick to it!


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## LuCiFeR_DeCoY

arp2041 said:


> *LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar*
> 
> Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.
> 
> Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.
> 
> Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent. First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013 and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.
> 
> Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar


brother first th LCA need to fly on sky otherwise AESA radar will be useless
hope it will be in the sky without help of TaTa nano


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## kurup

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> brother first th LCA need to fly on sky otherwise AESA radar will be useless
> hope it will be in the sky without help of TaTa nano



No ................. we are trying to hire some bangladeshi experts to paul volt it from the run ways ..........

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## KRAIT

Information thread like LCA, FGFA, INS Vikramaditya etc. should get equivalent Moderation like done in JF-17 thread.

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## Asskicker

What is the current status of LCA....?.Induct them atleast for the sake of our dignity man


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## LuCiFeR_DeCoY

you can agree or not but India cannt develop a LCA,,,Its not TaTa nano like job
better focus on another TaTa NaNo
no offense

I hope India will produce some LCA before 2050
finger crossed


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> you can agree or not but India cannt develop a LCA,,,Its not TaTa nano like job
> better focus on another TaTa NaNo
> no offense
> 
> I hope India will produce some LCA before 2050
> finger crossed



India _produced_ LCA as early as 2001

HAL_Tejas_timeline

But you can wait till 3050 to believe so

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## Paan Singh

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> you can agree or not but India cannt develop a LCA,,,Its not TaTa nano like job
> better focus on another TaTa NaNo
> no offense
> 
> I hope India will produce some LCA before 2050
> finger crossed



You are late sir


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## Hulk

arp2041 said:


> *LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar*
> 
> Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.
> 
> Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.
> 
> Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent. First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013 and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.
> 
> Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar



If just thinking about can get you all you wanted. DRDO makes big claims and lot of times unrealistic. This is specially true for LCA program. Just saying, we will have it does not mean we will. Sancho is right.

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## LuCiFeR_DeCoY

in which condition ? it was flying or carried by tata lorry


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## Paan Singh

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> in which condition ? it was flying or carried by tata lorry



its currently pole vaulting

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## sudhir007

India Developing New AESA Radar for Light Combat Aircraft | Defense News | defensenews.com

India will mount a homemade active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-2, Indian Air Force sources said. However the LCA is nearly 15 years behind schedule, and the Mark-2 prototype is not expected to fly until 2013.

India&#8217;s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is developing the AESA radar for the LCA-Mark-2, sources said. They did not reveal to what extent it will indigenous, but said overseas help will be sought for the radar&#8217;s completion.

The Indian content of the LCA Mark-2 will be about 70 percent, according to one scientist with the DRDO&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which spearheads LCA development.

The LCA Mark-1, which is due for induction in 2013-2014, will not be used for combat because it does not have the required thrust. The Mark-2, however, will be powered by the General Electric F414 engine and the aircraft has added two tons to the LCA&#8217;s original weight of eight tons.

ADA had to look overseas for a suitable engine for the Mark-2 because of technical snags in the development of the Indian-made Kaveri engine.

The Air Force has ordered 20 LCA Mark-1 aircraft and is likely to order more then 200 LCA Mark-2s once the aircraft is inducted into service.

The single-seat, single-engine LCA is an advanced technology supersonic, multirole, air-superiority fighter designed for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea combat. Proposed in 1983, the LCA entered full-scale engineering development in 1993.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. is the principal producer of the LCA.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*An Israeli Radar in Indias Jet Fighter*

Will the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed in India be equipped with an advanced radar system developed in Israel? The chances for that have increased in the recent days. Sources in India have informed that the Indian Air Force which is acquiring the LCA is interested in having it equipped with an AESA radar. Such a radar has been developed and is being produced by Elta, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries, which is considered among the most advanced of its kind throughout the world.

While the Indian LCA project is suffering from a 15-year delay beyond the original schedules, it is nevertheless continuing. The 2nd prototype is expected to take flight only next year. The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) at Indias Ministry of Defense is developing an electronic scanning radar, but the Indian sources said that the developers will need foreign assistance. The aircraft is equipped with a US engine after the engine developed for it in India did not provide the necessary thrust. At this stage, India ordered 200 LCA MK2 aircraft - the advanced version of the aircraft - from the Indian defense industry.

AESA radars are considered the most advanced radars for jet fighters, and they improve the aircrafts ability to detect aerial targets. In the past, the Ministry of Defense has prevented Elta from offering the new radar for export, but this was changed since several manufacturers, including US manufacturers, are offering them around the world.

According to the sources, the close military procurement relations between Israel and India allow for a good possibility of cooperation in developing the Indian radar that will be installed on the LCA.

An Israeli Radar in India

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## YouGotRouged

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> in which condition ? it was flying or carried by tata lorry



Neither, it's just being kept up by the hot air you seem to be queefing out.


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## subincb

Any one know what happened to LSP-6 and 8. no news from LCA testing from a long time


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## AADHAAR

subincb said:


> Any one know what happened to LSP-6 and 8. no news from LCA testing from a long time



I agree; no news for a long time.

From experiences in the past, usually, when their is no news for a while... a big news follows. It could be unveling a GE-414 integrated LCA or a BVR integration on the LCA.

Naval Tejas has done 6 test flights .... I am also keen to know, what is being tested now ... and how far is the Naval Tejas from a ski-jump takeoff (from the Goa shore-based ski jump facility) or an AC simulated landing for Naval Tejas.

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## golmaal

LuCiFeR_DeCoY said:


> in which condition ? it was flying or carried by tata lorry



First you make a simple Auto Rickshaw then troll..


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## Sergi

golmaal said:


> First you make a simple Auto Rickshaw then troll..



You mean the actual that run on road or just toy model ???


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## Storm Force

THIS PLANE IS MUCH DELAYED

But with a enlongated fuselarge,
New USA GE414 engine with 100kt thrust

AND A AESA radar with israeli help IT is going to be some fighter

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## laman12345

*LCA + AESA = Biggest joke in the world


so heavy and big Aesa rader, can LCA II fly? 


Big Mouth India makes biggest joke in the world again 


*


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## Paan Singh

laman12345 said:


> *LCA + AESA = Biggest joke in the world
> 
> 
> so heavy and big Aesa rader, can LCA fly?
> 
> 
> Big Mouth India makes biggest joke in the world again
> 
> 
> *



Casino with no AC is joke now

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## Sergi

laman12345 said:


> *LCA + AESA = Biggest joke in the world
> 
> 
> so heavy and big Aesa rader, can LCA II fly?
> 
> 
> Big Mouth India makes biggest joke in the world again
> 
> 
> *



If one has to reply you in your style 
You learn some English
Your English = Shame your comrade = no 50 cent 
Big mouth China = how post with google translate = I sad 

Go home and do home work kid


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## laman12345

Sergi said:


> If one has to reply you in your style
> You learn some English
> Your English = Shame your comrade = no 50 cent
> Big mouth China = how post with google translate = I sad
> 
> Go home and do home work kid




Only India need to learn English

Many Western people learning Chinese now 

We Chinese is the most people spoken English in the world

hahaha

by the way, Light LCA + Heavy and Big AESA = The biggest joke in the world


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## ajtr

laman12345 said:


> *LCA + AESA = Biggest joke in the world
> 
> 
> so heavy and big Aesa rader, can LCA II fly?
> 
> 
> Big Mouth India makes biggest joke in the world again
> 
> 
> *


i second that.First time in 436 posts you said something useful....


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## sancho

ajtr said:


> i second that.First time in 436 posts you said something useful....



Not even this time there is something useful:

LCA MK1: 6560Kg @ 55kN dry 
JF 17 B1: 6411Kg @ 49kN dry 
Gripen C: 6800Kg @ 55kN dry

LCA turned out to be heavier than planned, but it's heavy only for Indian high standards, otherwise it's very competetive in it's class.

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## sms

laman12345 said:


> LCA + AESA = Biggest joke in the world
> 
> so heavy and big Aesa rader, can LCA II fly?
> 
> Big Mouth India makes biggest joke in the world again





ajtr said:


> i second that.First time in 436 posts you said something useful....





sancho said:


> Not even this time there is something useful:
> 
> LCA MK1: 6560Kg @ 55kN dry
> JF 17 B1: 6411Kg @ 49kN dry
> Gripen C: 6800Kg @ 55kN dry
> 
> LCA turned out to be heavier than planned, but it's heavy only for Indian high standards, otherwise it's very competetive in it's class.



Sancho, Ignorance is Bliss for many on PDF.. 







Data is based on Official ADA, PAC Karma, Saab

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## LTE-TDD

India high standard?


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## sancho

LTE-TDD said:


> India high standard?



Unrealistically high, some pleople simply promise and some require too much from indigenous developments.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Unrealistically high, some pleople simply promise and some require too much from indigenous developments.



I think he was trolling and wasn't expecting this kinda answer


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> I think he was trolling and wasn't expecting this kinda answer



Possible, just wanted to clear my point.

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## arp2041

sms said:


> Sancho, Ignorance is Bliss for many on PDF..



Isn't a low combat radius & low service ceiling a threat for tejas when compared to jf-17??


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## INDIAISM

arp2041 said:


> Isn't a low combat radius & low service ceiling a threat for tejas when compared to jf-17??


Buddy don't trust Wiki.....

Combat radius of Jf17 and Tejas is almost similar infact Tejas can carry more internal fuel then Jf17...

Secondly i think in high altitude Tejas will perform better then jf17....


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## sms

arp2041 said:


> Isn't a low combat radius & low service ceiling a threat for Tejas when compared to jf-17??



Not really, LCA was designed as a point defense plane with added Air to Ground capability. Also be reminded that 850 Km radius is good enough for Pakistan.

@ Sancho,
I cannot send you PM due to low post counts. I've verified and corrected T/W. Also verified that the afterburner Thrust for GE404 is correct. Please note We are using *F404-GE-IN20*. It has higher afterburner thrust compare to other F404 series engines


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## Raje amar

INDIAISM said:


> Buddy don't trust Wiki.....
> 
> Combat radius of Jf17 and Tejas is almost similar infact Tejas can carry more internal fuel then Jf17...
> 
> Secondly i think in high altitude Tejas will perform better then jf17....



Tejas is for point defence role & will hardly leave the nations boundries for attack.
the added air to ground capability is for air support to the advancing ground units. 

so 850 km range is good enough for the fighter in the class of Tejas.


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## Dazzler

sms said:


> Sancho, Ignorance is Bliss for many on PDF..



Many jf-17 statistics in this chart are wrong such as empty weight, G limit etc. Refer to jf-17 info pool for correct data.

Thanks


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## TaimiKhan

nabil_05 said:


> Many jf-17 statistics in this chart are wrong such as empty weight, G limit etc. Refer to jf-17 info pool for correct data.
> 
> Thanks



had they been referring to info pool or the real informative parts, we would not have seen the trolling of Indian members with respect to JF-17. 

Don't ask for the Impossible.

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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> had they been referring to info pool or the real informative parts, *we would not have seen the trolling of Indian members with respect to JF-17. *
> 
> Don't ask for the Impossible.



Where do you see any trolling from Indian members? SMS might not have used correct data in his comparison (he corrected some of them later), but didn't made any dismissive statement against JF 17. If that is trolling, how do you rate laman12345s posts on the last page, which was the reason for this discussion.

Don't look at it so one sided please!

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## sancho

sms said:


> Please note We are using *F404-GE-IN20*. It has higher afterburner thrust compare to other F404 series engines



That's not correct:



> *F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft*
> 
> ...Earlier this year, the F404-GE-IN20 was trial-installed in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as part of final evaluations toward flight-testing, scheduled for mid-2007. *The F404-IN-20 engine has generated more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) uninstalled thrust* and has completed 330 hours of Accelerated Mission testing, which is the equivalent of 1,000 hours of flight operation...



F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft | Press Release


Add the Gripen C to your comparision and always try to get the most reliable specs, to get a fair and equal point of view. I can send you some links if you want.




arp2041 said:


> Isn't a low combat radius & low service ceiling a threat for tejas when compared to jf-17??



Range specs always have to be take with cautions, because it depends on how they were calculated, with how much fuel or weapon loads, altitude...



Raje amar said:


> Tejas is for point defence role & will hardly leave the nations boundries for attack.
> *the added air to ground capability is for air support to the advancing ground units.
> *



Tejas is as capable in A2G as the Jaguars not, while having a lower RCS, better avionics and self defence capabilities and CAS doesn't stop at borders. With fighters like Rafale, MKIs or others, they won't need to be used much in A2G, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful.
Again, only because IAF will have very capable hi end fighters, it doesn't mean LCA it couldn't be a good multi role fighter in other air forces!


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## sms

sancho said:


> That's not correct:
> 
> F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft | Press Release



I've verified the thrust from various sources ...The based on different websites Afterburner Thrust thrust with afterburners for GE-F404=IN20 is 20200 pounds ( 89.9KN).

F404-GE-IN20

Military Turbojet/Turbofan Specifications

India's Tejas light combat aircraft conducts first flight powered by General Electric F404-IN20 engine

About JF17 I'll check info pool again and correct something if required. Also I'll add Griffin for better comparison.


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## sancho

sms said:


> I've verified the thrust from various sources ...The based on different websites Afterburner Thrust thrust with afterburners for GE-F404=IN20 is 20200 pounds ( 89.9KN).
> 
> F404-GE-IN20
> 
> Military Turbojet/Turbofan Specifications
> 
> India's Tejas light combat aircraft conducts first flight powered by General Electric F404-IN20 engine
> 
> About JF17 I'll check info pool again and correct something if required. Also I'll add Griffin for better comparison.



Fair enough, but that's the thrust range of the engine in various varients of that engine, the quote that I posted is from GE itself and for the IN20 in LCA MK1.


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## sms

sancho said:


> Fair enough, but that's the thrust range of the engine in various varients of that engine, the quote that I posted is from GE itself and for the IN20 in LCA MK1.



Forget to quote ADA website ..
Tejas - Specifications - Powerplant

It's confirmed that after burner thrust is 89.9KN

I've also updated table, added JAS39 C Gripen to the table and corrected some JF17 spec based on info available on PAC Karma website.

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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Where do you see any trolling from Indian members? SMS might not have used correct data in his comparison (he corrected some of them later), but didn't made any dismissive statement against JF 17. If that is trolling, how do you rate laman12345s posts on the last page, which was the reason for this discussion.
> 
> Don't look at it so one sided please!



Sancho, kindly don't tell me my job. I spend more time on the forum then you and especially on the PAF related thread which includes JF-17's Thread. I know how much trolling happens there and by whom and what kind of trolling. your comment may be based on patriotism for your countrymen, but my comment is based on the experience of having dealt with trolls from across the border on the JF-17. 

And another thing, trolling does not means you answer with a troll post. Whatever layman or whatever said in the last page, should have been reported instead of replied with trollish posts. 

anyway, continue on the the discussion on the topic, which is LCA.


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## Agnostic_Indian

why is teajas has lesser service sealing than jf17,mki etc , when it has a low wing loading design which is naturally good for high altitude performance ? or is the the low wing loading not good for high altitude ?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Agnostic_Indian said:


> why is teajas has lesser service sealing than jf17,mki etc , when it has a low wing loading design which is naturally good for high altitude performance ? or is the the low wing loading not good for high altitude ?



Tejas can operate in Ladakh and if required over tibet. That should be enough.

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## sudhir007

Livefist: First Combat Drill With Tejas In 3 Months

India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be put to play in its first ever combat exercise in February 2013. The IAF's Iron Fist exercise over Rajasthan's Pokhran range will see a pair of Tejas limited series production fighters fly, drop bombs and perhaps fire weapons alongside IAF Su-30s, Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s. The type is scheduled to achieve the second phase of its troubled initial operational clearance (IOC-2) by September 2013.

In separate information made available today by the IAF chief, the air force's four MiG-27 squadrons will be retired by 2016-17, while two MiG-21 Type 96 squadrons currently committed to fast jet training will revert to full operational duties next year as the BAE Hawk fleet fully integrates with the IAF lead-in training syllabus. By 2020, the upgraded MiG-29 Fulcrum will be the only MiG series aircraft left in IAF service (the Indian Navy will operate its MiG-29Ks well beyond 2020).


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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> Sancho, kindly don't tell me my job. I spend more time on the forum then you and especially on the PAF related thread which includes JF-17's Thread. I know how much trolling happens there and by whom and what kind of trolling. your comment may be based on patriotism for your countrymen, but my comment is based on the experience of having dealt with trolls from across the border on the JF-17.



I didn't commented on your job as a Mod, but on the personal statement that you have posted, which was factually wrong (because there was no dismissive statement about JF17). I know very well how much trolling is on the forum and that was exactly the reason for my post, because it is not wise to fuel the trolling by such an unnecessary and generalised statement.



TaimiKhan said:


> And another thing, trolling does not means you answer with a troll post. Whatever layman or whatever said in the last page, should have been reported instead of replied with trollish posts.



That's why I didn't replied to him, but to ajtr! The next mistake of yours, based on a general assumption, that's why I am requesting again, don't look at the things so one sided and generalise things. Yes, there are Indian trolls, just like there are Pakistani or Chinese trolls, but that doesn't mean all Indians, all Pakistanis or all Chinese are trolls isn't it? So not any statement an Indian makes on JF 17 must be negative. 

Anyways, back to topic.

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## 1ndy

Today i missed discovery channel's "World's Top Five" they were showing a documentry on Tejas.

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## bhisma

1ndy said:


> Today i missed discovery channel's "World's Top Five" they were showing a documentry on Tejas.



Will they repeat this telecast ???  I too missed it..


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## India defense

bhisma said:


> Will they repeat this telecast ???  I too missed it..



I would like to watch this re-telecast...any info?


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## hulian12

LCA made in china???????


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## 1ndy

India defense said:


> I would like to watch this re-telecast...any info?



 i don't know


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## AADHAAR

1ndy said:


> Today i missed discovery channel's "World's Top Five" they were showing a documentry on Tejas.



If some one can put the recorded video on YouTube.. pls post a link.

Anyway, I searched on google. but didn't find anything related to this !!!!


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## Hellraiser007

India defense said:


> I would like to watch this re-telecast...any info?




I watched it. It is about first test flight of Tejas and composites developed to make it light.
Interesting thing is that just before the first test flight our defense minister george Fernandes received a report which said LCA will crash in its flight but it turned out to be a sucess .

Tejas is referred as multi role light weight fighter jet in that telecast.


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## 1ndy

Hellraiser007 said:


> I watched it. It is about first test flight of Tejas and composites developed to make it light.
> Interesting thing is that just before the first test flight our defense minister george Fernandes received a report which said LCA will crash in its flight but it turned out to be a sucess .
> 
> Tejas is referred as multi role light weight fighter jet in that telecast.



i think you're talking about "Inside Out: Defence Research And Development Organisation"? That show called World's Top Five in which they compare 5 different kind of aircraft a UAV, a Transport aircraft, a Civilian Airliner etc base on meny different parameters.

And the interesting part was that our Tejas leading the list  but yaar maine t.v on kia to lite off ho gyi


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## dearone4u_22

1ndy said:


> but yaar maine t.v on kia to lite off ho gyi



Next time apne tv ko aur apne gaale mein nimboo mirchi bandh ke betna......



Ontopic:-
Tejas leading the point table.. ...i would like to know what were the criteria used


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Telecast Schedule*
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi/message/inside.pdf
Tejas - INSIDE OUT : DRDO episode on Discovery Channel

*23rd October 2012 - Tuesday at 1800 hr
28th October 2012 - Sunday at 1100 hr
30th October 2012 - Tuesday at 1600 hr*

Guys,Pls record this and upload on youtube if possible.

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## arp2041

In Last few months we at idrw.org have been receiving similar emails from concerned Citizens, asking status and updates on the Lca Tejas Program. Our Previous articles had hinted about the sorry state of affairs on Indigenous aircrafts (HAL is struggling with Indigenous Aircrafts ).

Again Sources are not coming out with much useful information and certainly it seems like some kind of Media Gag has been imposed by developing agencies, all that Sources are saying is we are looking forward to Fire power demonstration to be held Next year by IAF which will showcase Tejas for the first time.

Idrw.org have contacted other sources which have provided some information on its current status , idrw.org are only putting down information provided by not so regular sources .

* Tejas after Fire power demonstration next year will be cleared for Air to Ground (A2G) Roles only, if IAF is satisfied with the outcomes of the exercise.

* Tejas not yet has cleared Air to Air (A2A) roles yet and aircrafts are currently been getting up-gradation (Radars and avionics and BVR and WVR missiles integrations) on older aircrafts (PV and LSP).

* Tejas once cleared of A2G roles will start A2A testing and it is expected that along with it and other test, FOC will be achieved in 2015.

* Unlikely that in early 2013 SP-1 and SP-2 will be handed over to IAF, Most likely it will be mid or late 2013.

* Flight envelope has been opened up, but nothing to write about says sources, since Target has not been achieved.

* Radar likely to be cleared for A2G mode in current stage.

* HAL might squeeze in first flight of LSP-8 by year end.

* A2G tests have been good and satisfactory as per sources, IAF to take the final call next year.

* Mid-air refuelling testing with IAFs IL-78 tankers should start next year.

* Slower rate of productions of LSP has created another sets of problem; many aircrafts (LSP) are not identical in terms of Avionics and structural changes (ex, Optimization of APU intakes and different pilot avionics layout in latter variant). Leading to delays in upgrading of older aircrafts with current changes.

idrw.org will post again if we have any other kind of information on it .


Where is LCA

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## Abingdonboy

2015 1st full SQD and then take it from there. The IAF has done well wrt other purchases to get to a stage where they really don't need the LCA in great numbers to increase SQD numbers, if nessercary they can simply order more fighters that are already on the books. If the LCA MK2 can deliver what has been speculated wrt advanced avionics,AESA radar etc then the LCA program will have denfitely been a success. All we can do is wait and see.

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## arp2041

Abingdonboy said:


> 2015 1st full SQD and then take it from there. The IAF has done well wrt other purchases to get to a stage where they really don't need the LCA in great numbers to increase SQD numbers, if nessercary they can simply order more fighters that are already on the books. If the LCA MK2 can deliver what has been speculated wrt advanced avionics,AESA radar etc then the LCA program will have denfitely been a success. All we can do is wait and see.



Abing, the issue is the we do need LCA, it is a low cost, single engine, 4+ gen a/c which IAF can afford in large nos. All our future inductions will be high costs, 2 engine a/c like Rafale, FGFA, su-30s, which will need more money & more maintenance. Also, LCA can serve as a good platform for future aerospace development in India such as AMCA.

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## karan21

It is heading no where. If they were serious they should have mass produced it by now and replaced radars and missiles later on. Screw it its a failure of Indian plannning and so called third class scientific research instutions. Our entire Air force is imported. Dhruv is 95% imported components. Only 3 countries USA, Russia and CHina can build their own airforce. Rest are just dependent. Accept facts we are sore loosers in aerospace field.


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## arp2041

karan21 said:


> It is heading no where. If they were serious they should have mass produced it by now and replaced radars and missiles later on. Screw it its a failure of Indian plannning and so called third class scientific research instutions. Our entire Air force is imported. Dhruv is 95% imported components. Only 3 countries USA, Russia and CHina can build their own airforce. Rest are just dependent. Accept facts we are sore loosers in aerospace field.



Great, ur this post will get many thanks, but not one of them from an Indian.

Agreed, that we are nowhere as compared to other major powers but atleast we are trying, & that makes all the difference, we have made our navy at least 80% indigenous in 65 years time, all one need is just patience & self confidence, this post of urs, i m afraid, is the completely opposite of that.

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## karan21

arp2041 said:


> Great, ur this post will get many thanks, but not one of them from an Indian.



I am not here to collect thanks. Then you tell me which country took 25 yrs to develop such a tiny 4th gen fighter. Its soo small that even if it does get inducted, I don't find anything to be proud off. Do you??? Will you proudly say in 30 yrs we built a 5 tonne single engined fighter that still cant fire missiles.

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## Abingdonboy

karan21 said:


> It is heading no where. If they were serious they should have mass produced it by now and replaced radars and missiles later on. Screw it its a failure of Indian plannning and so called third class scientific research instutions. Our entire Air force is imported. Dhruv is 95% imported components. Only 3 countries USA, Russia and CHina can build their own airforce. Rest are just dependent. Accept facts we are sore loosers in aerospace field.


Hold your horses, India is getting in the game but it takes a lot of time and even more $$$ so the road isn't easy but it is worth it!


arp2041 said:


> Abing, the issue is the we do need LCA, it is a low cost, single engine, 4+ gen a/c which IAF can afford in large nos. All our future inductions will be high costs, 2 engine a/c like Rafale, FGFA, su-30s, which will need more money & more maintenance. Also, LCA can serve as a good platform for future aerospace development in India such as AMCA.


True, but what I meant was that any gaps in capabilites would be addressed easily. However when the MKI costs ~$14,000 PER flight hour and no doubt the FGFA and Rafale won't be far off this figure the LCA is a requirement in cost terms.

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## sasi

****... It seems IAF is banking on rafale to maintain sqd level. Expect follow on order at later stage.


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## SpArK

karan21 said:


> I am not here to collect thanks. Then you tell me which country took 25 yrs to develop such a tiny 4th gen fighter. Its soo small that even if it does get inducted, I don't find anything to be proud off. Do you??? *Will you proudly say in 30 yrs we built a 5 tonne single engined fighter that still cant fire missiles*.



nope. 

But we can proudly say inspite of being a new nation full of miseries and is still a third world country with domestic issues and worse political and bureaucratic groups messing all through its history on length and breadth of everything the population aspires, your nation *still attempted* to make a fighter jet which only a few developed technologically advanced nations tried and was successful.

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## Bobby

When LCA will be ready...that time it may not be required any more....


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## Splurgenxs

> I am not here to collect thanks. Then you tell me which country took 25 yrs to develop such a tiny 4th gen fighter. Its soo small that even if it does get inducted, I don't find anything to be proud off. Do you??? Will you proudly say in 30 yrs we built a 5 tonne single engined fighter that still cant fire missiles.



cynicism is only applauded or accepted till the point where it has valid facts backing it , what ur doing is just generalizing and defeatist.

im not judging, just saying this frame of though its counterproductive.

if u wana be a cynic try to not generalize . What is the difference between cynisim like this and the telibunnies spreading false hate and propaganda making doctored pictures and taking names.?? 

Just saying ......


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## arp2041

karan21 said:


> I am not here to collect thanks. Then you tell me which country took 25 yrs to develop such a tiny 4th gen fighter. Its soo small that even if it does get inducted, I don't find anything to be proud off. Do you??? *Will you proudly say in 30 yrs we built a 5 tonne single engined fighter that still cant fire missiles.*



missile fired or not, atleast i would still be proud of LCA b'coz it served at the launch pad for other world class a/c like AMCA or any other future a/c developed by India, look at the eg. of ISRO, which every Indian is proud of, it din't launched PSLV's or GSLV's from day 1 of it's formation, instead it was launching sounding rockets in the late 60s, which served as the platform for future PSLV, GSLV & GSLV mk-3s, no one goes to university/higher education without passing/going to a high school, it's our learning curve, that is the fact which u should accept, if u are thinking that we can make a F-22 from nowhere than i can only say - time to wake up.

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## Varunastra

we people forget one important point......project of LCA TEJAS was started to fill in the gap till we could get more advanced fighters as our squadron numbers were decreasing.....but if the first squadron gets ready by 2015 i think it will be a little late as rafales are gonna be inducted in large numbers starting by 2017(perhaps) and we wil also have 250+ su-30's by 2015-16 and so the squadron numbers will be on the rise with more potent platforms(i am not saying that tejas in not good,but WE are still a rookie in this field )so the need to induct tejas in large numbers will not be there ...........i think the tejas project has become a project to gain experience in military aviation field rather than to practically induct it .......sure this experience and the hurdles w overcome will make our aviation industry stronger and will pave the way for future platforms(like amca,etc).....but personally i too want to see a few squadrons of our indegenous tejas flying proudly


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## Blitzkrieg

I am just at loss of words as far as the delayed induction of LCA into the IAF is concerned. It is very disheartening to see such reports coming out. Condemning HAL, DRDO, and ADA would serve no purpose either. I only hope that the LCA experience, as far as delays are concerned, is not be repeated in AMCA and other future projects. Good luck India.


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## Backbencher

We are a bit late in the ring but better late than never .


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## SpArK

Blitzkrieg said:


> I am just at loss of words as far as the delayed induction of LCA into the IAF is concerned. It is very disheartening to see such reports coming out. Condemning *HAL, DRDO, and ADA* would serve no purpose either. I only hope that the LCA experience, as far as delays are concerned, is not be repeated in AMCA and other future projects.



Blame it on the bloody bucking system.

How many of the brighter IIT'ians or people with good caliber or interest in the field reach these organisations? - nil.

These governmental organisations are just like any other central government institutions , operating like it and can give result based on the capability they have.

Dont compare them to the professional people in organisations like Boeing , Lockheed or Cassadian where they get the brightest of people to work in the best of conditions with the huge paycheck and unimaginable benefits.

Our scientists with the limited budget, limited facilities, limited benefits are trying their best to do what they can.

*Each one of us* want results like they get in west , but we ourselves have to look into the mirror and cross check whether our words are put into action in our own life before blaming it on these poor guys whom i think have done more than they can handle over a period of time facing all the hardships which are a bane for almost all government sectors.

Tum chalo to Hindustan chale !!

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## karan21

Man everyone here is so optismistic about this plane. Its not that i am against this plane or indian developments. What i am saying is that I am not satisfied the way this plane is built. We here have a plane which is less than 50 percent indian. We failed on the engine and radar part. The purpose of this plane has changed from what it was supposed to be. Yes political mess is responsible but at the end of day India is the looser.


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## SpArK

karan21 said:


> Man everyone here is so optismistic about this plane. Its not that i am against this plane or indian developments. What i am saying is that I am not satisfied the way this plane is built. We should have a plane which is less than 50 percent indian. We failed on the engine and radar part. The purpose of this plane has changed from what it was supposed to be. Yes political mess is responsible but at the end of day India is the looser.



I know dear. Everyone of us want it to fly , be the best among its class. 

Lets pray it happens one day or pay the way for future advancements.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Gr8!! So following are the achievements: 

1) ready for A2G clearance, radar clearence for A2G 
2) asymmetrical loading demonstrated on an unstable plane, i.e, FBW is alot mature now
3) Flight envelope further opened up, I think they have achieved 24 deg, where as target is 26.

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## karan21

SpArK said:


> I know dear. Everyone of us want it to fly , be the best among its class.
> 
> Lets pray it happens one day or pay the way for future advancements.




Haha chalo if you are saying we will wait 3 more yrs to see something happening in lca. If not inducted then no one will be able to stop from criticising this plane and india.


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## itaskol

Self-distrust is the cause of failures of LCA.
If india had more self confident, they should mass product LCA first , and upgrade them later.

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## IndianTiger

Bobby said:


> When LCA will be ready...that time it may not be required any more....



4+ gen planes in south asia are good enough..


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## karan21

itaskol said:


> Self-distrust is the cause of failures of LCA.
> If india had more self confident, they should mass product LCA first , and upgrade them later.



Agreed indians are the only people that are scared to use and mass produce their own developed products.

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## SpArK

karan21 said:


> Haha chalo if you are saying we will wait 3 more yrs to see something happening in lca. If not inducted then no one will be able to stop from criticising this plane and india.



Even if it is not inducted, its not much an issue..LCA is to fill the numbers and for experimental purpose for future gens..

Upgraded Mirages, Raffys, Super and normal sukhois, Mig -29s and later AMCA's ,FGFA's will be and should be the focus..

With the time passing by , lets hope LCA transforms itself into the smallest stealthy jet ever at some point of time.

Until then we have to hear all the "laughters" from the internet pilots from around our neighborhood.

Lets ignore them by citing LCA is not so important to us.


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## punit

SpArK said:


> Blame it on the bloody bucking system.
> 
> How many of the brighter IIT'ians or people with good caliber or interest in the field reach these organisations? - nil.
> 
> These governmental organisations are just like any other central government institutions , operating like it and can give result based on the capability they have.
> 
> Dont compare them to the professional people in organisations like Boeing , Lockheed or Cassadian where they get the brightest of people to work in the best of conditions with the huge paycheck and unimaginable benefits.
> 
> Our scientists with the limited budget, limited facilities, limited benefits are trying their best to do what they can.
> *Each one of us* want results like they get in west , but we ourselves have to look into the mirror and cross check whether our words are put into action in our own life before blaming it on these poor guys whom i think have done more than they can handle over a period of time facing all the hardships which are a bane for almost all government sectors.
> 
> Tum chalo to Hindustan chale !!



dont blame iitians or others.this is bound to happen if u appoint useless babus as head and force scientists to work under them.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

karan21 said:


> Haha chalo if you are saying we will wait 3 more yrs to see something happening in lca. If not inducted then no one will be able to stop from criticising this plane and india.



Why are you afraid of the criticism? Duniya kya kahegi... LOL. How many countries are there that can make an unstable FBW driven plane? Problem with Indians is they worry to much about the world outside of india, instead concentrating on India. Instead of all the faults and errors, foreign maal is acceptable to IA and IAF, but when it comes to Indian maal, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, it must be perfect in the first attempt. SU30MKI has a fatal FBW design flaw that already has caused a crash, but arey bhai foreign maal hai, samjha karo, atithi devo bhava. Russia does bamboo all the time in all the defence deals, But we cannot take bamboo from our own ppl.

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## SpArK

punit said:


> dont blame iitians or others.this is bound to happen if u appoint useless babus as head and force scientists to work under them.



Arent we saying the same thing, Punit.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

itaskol said:


> Self-distrust is the cause of failures of LCA.
> If india had more self confident, they should mass product LCA first , and upgrade them later.



Actually Indians are and will be their greatest enemies. So much negativity when it comes to anything Indian.


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## arp2041

SpArK said:


> Blame it on the bloody bucking system.
> 
> How many of the brighter IIT'ians or people with good caliber or interest in the field reach these organisations? - nil.
> 
> These governmental organisations are just like any other central government institutions , operating like it and can give result based on the capability they have.
> 
> Dont compare them to the professional people in organisations like Boeing , Lockheed or Cassadian where they get the brightest of people to work in the best of conditions with the huge paycheck and unimaginable benefits.
> 
> Our scientists with the limited budget, limited facilities, limited benefits are trying their best to do what they can.
> 
> *Each one of us* want results like they get in west , but we ourselves have to look into the mirror and cross check whether our words are put into action in our own life before blaming it on these poor guys whom i think have done more than they can handle over a period of time facing all the hardships which are a bane for almost all government sectors.
> 
> Tum chalo to Hindustan chale !!



Giving autonomy & appointing specialist people at top positions can be one of the solutions, ISRO & Naval Shipyards are the classic case as both are run by specialist (scientists for ISRO & naval personnel for Shipyards) & are given an autonomy, both have proved there worth which no one can deny, same should go for other organisations.

+ Also bring private players to the picture, giving them more responsibility in national security, they have the money while PSU's have the experience, this along with some foreign countries help can really change the complete scenario of indigenous weapon systems.

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## surya kiran

What is the role of the Tejas? Point defence. Fire its A2A missiles and get back to base. The main job should be this is the least expensive to operate and maintain aircraft of the IAF. Coupled with a AWACS...form the bulk of an agressor force if required. Simply put, in an attrition scenario the aircraft of choice. We should not expect it to be anything more than this. If the above is achieved, wrap the program up. The biggest mistake we did was to belive the idiots at DRDO that they can get an engine as part of this program. We need to stop bitching about how the engine and radar is not Indian. Get the damn thing into service first. Then work on the engine and the radar. If takes 10 years, carry out the MLU with the new stuff.

Hopefully we have learnt from the mistakes of the LcA and dont go and make the same with the AMCA. Btw, I don't expect the AMCA to be very different from the PAK-FA. The collaboration with the Russians seems to be made with the intent of getting the AMCA up faster.


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## INDIAISM

As a project Tejas could be a failure due its delay all thanks too Late lateefe of Babu's sitting in south Block...BUT all of us will remember Tejas Project as the base of our Defence Aviation industry....


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## Tshering22

The problem has always been the bureaucracy and not the scientists or engineers in any of the sectors. In fact, the technical side is far more advanced and much more organized than the management. The project has been simply mishandled.

If ADA and HAL are headed by strategists rather than bureaucrats (an IAS or similar qualification doesn't always mean that he or she is the best, popular to the misconception we Indians have), with enough power to take decisions, then I don't see any problem with our defense sector.

It is just that the government focuses too much on meddling and less on governing.


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## Kompromat

SpArK said:


> nope.
> 
> But we can proudly say inspite of being a new nation full of miseries and is still a third world country with domestic issues and worse political and bureaucratic groups messing all through its history on length and breadth of everything the population aspires, your nation *still attempted* to make a fighter jet which only a few developed technologically advanced nations tried and was successful.



Roger that, technical expertise derived from aviation programs has its own value.

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## acetophenol

INDIAISM said:


> As a project Tejas could be a failure due its delay all thanks too Late lateefe of Babu's sitting in south Block...BUT all of us will remember Tejas Project as the base of our Defence Aviation industry....



No brother,
In no way Tejas is going to be a failure due to its delays.
Take ALH Dhruv for example,Dhruv is something which we are very proud of, the project started in 1989,first flight in 1992 and faced a no. of delays. May be the defence freaks of the time would have discussed about it,some may have felt angered about it,some may have felt its a failure etc. Now the Dhruv proudly serves countries around the globe. 
My point is that,definitly tejas will be a success and will serve IAF for a long time to come


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## karan21

Aeronaut said:


> Roger that, technical expertise derived from aviation programs has its own value.



Thats the only hope which can save future Indian projects. Actually we can already see the impacts of Technical knowledge India gained in last decades. Hal lch took only 2 yrs in prototype building and flight after full designing and it was good enough that forces ordered 170 just after seeing it fly once. My main concern is not the design or technical knowledge, its manufacturing. I am lamenting because we can't mass produce jack SH1t. Even after 30 yrs of development only 100 dhruvs have been built. Govt involvement need to be removed from defence and manufacturing sector for its development.


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## arp2041

INDIAISM said:


> As a project Tejas could be a failure due its delay all thanks too Late lateefe of Babu's sitting in south Block...BUT all of us will remember Tejas Project as the base of our Defence Aviation industry....





Bobby said:


> When LCA will be ready...that time it may not be required any more....



Am i dreaming or u people are ruling out a descent (if not best) 4+ gen, low cost, lightest multirole fighter even before it is formally inducted to the IAF?? You can call me over optimistic, too patriotic or whatever u want, but the fact is that LCA will be relevant atleast till 2035 if not more, b'coz the possibility of IAF facing an all 5th gen AF is only by than, cmon guys, if 3rd gen mig-21s (which were first flown in 50s & 60s) can still be relevant (after more than 50 years) than why are u ruling out a 4th gen a/c even when there is only one AF in the world with 5th gen fighter capability presently (that too in limited nos.) besides we can always upgrade the a/c to make them relevant with times. 

Just an opinion, i may be wrong.


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## karan21

acetophenol said:


> No brother,
> In no way Tejas is going to be a failure due to its delays.
> *Take ALH Dhruv *for example,Dhruv is something which we are very proud of, the project started in 1989,first flight in 1992 and faced a no. of delays. May be the defence freaks of the time would have discussed about it,some may have felt angered about it,some may have felt its a failure etc. Now the Dhruv proudly serves countries around the globe.
> My point is that,definitly tejas will be a success and will serve IAF for a long time to come



Dont talk about that helicopter dude. It is 90% foreign made. Only thing Indian made is outer body. India only integerated foreign stuff and called it indegeneous dhruv. The only helicopter that can be called Indian is Lch or now LUh in which the rotors blades, gearbox, landing structure, and many avionics are Indian designed but they are not operational yet.


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## ajtr

only use of LCA i can see is to put it beside Marut in airforce museum.it will remind future generations what to do right .


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## Ticker

Tejas is a technology demonstrator and will remain as one. A limited number may be produced just like Arjuns and probably that may be all.


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## Black Widow

There is a dedicated thread about LCA. Why opening new threads...


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## acetophenol

karan21 said:


> Dont talk about that helicopter dude. It is 90% foreign made. Only thing Indian made is outer body. India only integerated foreign stuff and called it indegeneous dhruv. The only helicopter that can be called Indian is Lch or now LUh in which the rotors blades, gearbox, landing structure, and many avionics are Indian designed but they are not operational yet.



What the hell are you talk'n bro?


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## rockstarIN

we have a vast sea shores in south, which was greatly neglected. We should have these at south mainly.


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## acetophenol

karan21 said:


> Dont talk about that helicopter dude. It is 90% foreign made. Only thing Indian made is outer body. India only integerated foreign stuff and called it indegeneous dhruv. The only helicopter that can be called Indian is Lch or now LUh in which the rotors blades, gearbox, landing structure, and many avionics are Indian designed but they are not operational yet.



Nice,so dhruv components are foreign but lch are indian. Good job!


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## BlueDot_in_Space

karan21 said:


> Dont talk about that helicopter dude. It is 90% foreign made. Only thing Indian made is outer body. India only integerated foreign stuff and called it indegeneous dhruv. The only helicopter that can be called Indian is Lch or now LUh in which the rotors blades, gearbox, landing structure, and many avionics are Indian designed but they are not operational yet.



Why not talk about ALH? Today if India is capable of making LCH, LUH and planning about heavy helicopters is because of the technical expertise gained in Dhruv project. It started with designing and manufacturing the frame and integrating foreign equipment. Now today, we are manufacturing our own equipment that will go into LUH (90% indigenous). Similar will be the tale for fighter planes starting from LCA.


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## sancho

karan21 said:


> I am not here to collect thanks. Then you tell me which country took 25 yrs to develop such a tiny 4th gen fighter. Its soo small that even if it does get inducted, I don't find anything to be proud off. Do you??? Will you proudly say in 30 yrs we built a 5 tonne single engined fighter that still cant fire missiles.



I don't agree with you, but it's a nice and honest post! In 50 years from now I hope to say that LCA served our forces as a good fighter and that it sets the base for an aero industry that today (2062) is more than able to compete with the counterparts from any top nation. That's enough for me, because I don't want to be proud of the fighter, I just put my hope on it as a good low end fighter, that hopefully is more reliable than the Migs it will replace and in the fact that our aero industry needs to start somewhere.
It was clear that it wouldn't be easy and we did a lot of mistakes (making LCA A2G capable before the radar and missiles are inducted is another one, but speakes volume about the mismanagement of the development), but the fact that we made mistakes on the way, doesn't make the whole project a bad one!
Similarly, only because the engine and radar developments failed, it doesn't mean that the whole fighter development has, because that are only sidenotes, that should have been de-linked earlier. We hopefully will learn from these mistakes and won't do it in the next development and if that is the case (although I'm not sure about it), it will be worth it at the end.




SpArK said:


> Blame it on the bloody bucking system...



I say blame it on our mentality! We want to be "proud" and show off what we achieved with it, although it's "just" a light class fighter. That's why the companies that build it, wanted to do anything alone, although it was clear that they couldn't do it. That's also why IN want it as a carrier fighter, because like any Indian, we want what our neighbor has as well...
With this kind of a mentality, you have to loose sight of what is important and what is not, of what should be the aim and what is the fastest way to achieve it. You simply want more and more, aim higher and higher, while you still are not able to do the basics.

Bottom line is, it was right to develop it, it is important to stick with it until it is in operational service, but even more important is to analyse the mistakes that was done and to learn from them. Because besides providing our forces a low cost, but reliable fighter with good potential (not a super duper high end best in the world...fighter like many believe), learning and increasing knowledge was the main aim behind the development!

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## karan21

acetophenol said:


> What the hell are you talk'n bro?



Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India 


Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.


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## sancho

karan21 said:


> Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India
> 
> 
> Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.



Integrating foreign parts doesn't make it not indigenous, because the development as a whole is indigenous. Why would you limit your fighter to low quality or capability Indian parts, when you can make it way more deadlier with the available foreign arms and techs?
Or to bring it back to the topic of the thread, why not use a proven foreign engine or radar as a stopgap solution in the early versions and replace them with Indian techs (if as capable) later? That's what we have done with Dhruv and what we sadly didn't with LCA. That's why Chinese fighters with Russian engines are already inducted into operational service, while LCA is not, that's why even the French used GE engines for Rafale first, before they integrated their new M88 and soooo on.

Indigenous is not = 100% from 1 country!

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## sms

karan21 said:


> Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India
> 
> 
> Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.



Guys I do not know where did we get the idea that indigenous= Every thing made in country. If we go by that definition non will be called indigenous, even a simple mobile phone cannot be indigenous.

If Saab Grippen is called Swedish, AHS-2. CH2 called South African, T129 called Turkish why do we raise question when ever we talk about Indian development?

This is the age of decentralization supply chain to let the expert do what there are good at and focus on core skill and final product.

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## Alfa-Fighter

Very True, Even f-22 use Foreign made components but world love to call them US plane, Grippen use US engine, Boing use UK engine , Indian made door.

Even FC-1 uses , Russian engine , they call it own, in today;s world , no one make 100% in its own country.

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## INDIAISM

Ticker said:


> Tejas is a technology demonstrator and will remain as one. A limited number may be produced just like Arjuns and probably that may be all.


And that limited number production of Tejas will be around 200-240 for IAF and IN Air Arm if not more...Not only that i am dam sure we will be able to get an export order of around 100 to150 Tejas Mk2....So at the end HAL will be able to sell 300+ Tejas Mk2...


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## GORKHALI

karan21 said:


> Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India
> 
> 
> Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.



Here is your Economic 101 lesson -


> *90 percent of Components for HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv Sourced Internally*
> 
> *2010-12-08 Around 69 percent of the material used in manufacture of Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) is procured from foreign sources. In terms of number of components involved, around 90 percent of the components are made in India.*
> 
> The development and production of ALH has benefited the country immensely by providing a versatile domestic helicopter and enhancing our knowledge base in designing, developing and manufacturing a rotary wing aircraft of this category.
> 
> This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju in a written reply to Shri T M Selvaganapathi in Rajya Sabha today.


90 percent of Components for HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv Sourced Internally | India Defence

If something we can procure Cheap and at better quality then welcome to 21st century ,the world of globalization.


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## Black Widow

karan21 said:


> Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India
> 
> 
> Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.





Karan Do you know that BMW and Benz components are made in India?????


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## rahul_rao

karan21 said:


> Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India
> 
> 
> Here you go man. Hal has only integerated most of foreign stuff and called it Indian dhruv.



bhai bhang kha rkhi hai kya????


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## sudhir007

Effort to make Tejas more &#8216;Indian&#8217; | idrw.org

In a concerted effort to reduce the percentage of foreign components in the Indian LCA Tejas fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency has drawn up a comprehensive list of 111 aircraft line-replacable units (LRUs) that will be indigenised and built by Indian companies within the country. The ambitious list includes 21 avionics components (including gyro reference unit, tactical navigation antenna and GPS antenna), 27 environmental control components, 14 electrical components (including under-carriage display unit, integral drive generator and ground power receptacle), ejection seat, nine components in the flight control area (left and right air data sensors, angle of attack sensor, sensor assembly rate).

The list also includes several key LRUs in hydraulics, landing gear, propulsion and fuel, and the aircraft&#8217;s health and utility management system. In a statement announcing it&#8217;s interest, the ADA has said, &#8220;There are 358 LRUs (components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53 per cent of total LRUs are indigenously developed within India. In view to reduce the remaining 47 per cent of the import LRUs, ADA has initiated the indigenous development programme for indigenisation of the import LRUs.&#8221;

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## faithfulguy

INDIAISM said:


> And that limited number production of Tejas will be around 200-240 for IAF and IN Air Arm if not more...Not only that i am dam sure we will be able to get an export order of around 100 to150 Tejas Mk2....So at the end HAL will be able to sell 300+ Tejas Mk2...



Why not drop the project and buy more Rafael.


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## notsuperstitious

faithfulguy said:


> Why not drop the project and buy more Rafael.



Not the same reason why you can't stop being a troll. Choice.

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## Black Widow

faithfulguy said:


> Why not drop the project and buy more Rafael.



Use bro use, Rafael is not Point defense fighter. What is the use of using costly MMRCA as point defense fighter???


LCA can be replace by Grippen or F16 (May be) or MiG29(May be) or JF17 (Which China can't sell)


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## Abingdonboy



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## bhisma

Is there any pdf indian member, who can just breach the security of HAL and take some pic of mk-2 or even 8th LSP ???
.
Because, its irritating me..

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## Gessler

bhisma said:


> Is there any pdf indian member, who can just breach the security of HAL and take some pic of mk-2 or even 8th LSP ???
> .
> Because, its irritating me..



LSP-8 will fly within year-end. After that the first SPs will roll out in 2013.
Then all 8 LSPs will be converted to SP standard and form the first squadron
in Sulur AFB.

The first Mk-2 prototype is well into construction, there're only waiting for the
first batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines to arrive before being integrated into the
airframe and a debut flight in late 2013.

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## indiafriendly

Whar are the main differences between Mk1 and Mk2.apart from engine and Radar. Any major structural changes....?


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## Gessler

indiafriendly said:


> Whar are the main differences between Mk1 and Mk2.apart from engine and Radar. Any major structural changes....?



Yes, Mk-2 will be longer in length by 1 meter. Its height will also be increased.
The tailfin is likely to be "streched". There will be no difference in wingspan but
the wing-area will increase.

External stores capacity will be boosted to 5000kg from current 3500kg. Some say
the 8th hardpoint (on the port-side intake trunk) which now carries the LDP will
be made into a full-fledged hardpoint capable of carrying any type of A2A/A2G weapon
and a similar 9th hardpoint will be added on the starboard-side intake trunk.

A new IRST sensor. Mid-air refuelling probe. Improved EW suites. New-generation
cockpit design. And a frameless bubble canopy (according to Prasun K Sengupta) will
be added.

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## rockstarIN

Let us wait till early 2013 war drills where IAF will see/check this beast for the first time. 

Hopefully they will be happy, the same way Arjun did well in the exercises.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

gessler said:


> Yes, Mk-2 will be longer in length by 1 meter. Its height will also be increased.
> The tailfin is likely to be "streched". There will be no difference in wingspan but
> the wing-area will increase.
> 
> External stores capacity will be boosted to 5000kg from current 3500kg. Some say
> the 8th hardpoint (on the port-side intake trunk) which now carries the LDP will
> be made into a full-fledged hardpoint capable of carrying any type of A2A/A2G weapon
> and a similar 9th hardpoint will be added on the starboard-side intake trunk.
> 
> A new IRST sensor. Mid-air refuelling probe. Improved EW suites. New-generation
> cockpit design. And a frameless bubble canopy (according to Prasun K Sengupta) will
> be added.



About the 8th hard point, The Inside out video on Tejas showed that point carrying some missile. So that is planned and that hard point will carrying either pod or a missile.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> The tailfin is likely to be "streched". There will be no difference in wingspan but
> the wing-area will increase.
> Some say the 8th hardpoint (on the port-side intake trunk) which now carries the LDP will
> be made into a full-fledged hardpoint capable of carrying any type of A2A/A2G weapon
> and a similar 9th hardpoint will be added on the starboard-side intake trunk.
> 
> A new IRST sensor. New-generation cockpit design. And a frameless bubble canopy (according to Prasun K Sengupta) will be added.




Buddy, not sure where you got all these things from, but it sounds more like a whishlist.

So far all we know is, increased internal fuel, because of N-LCA requirements, increased thrust, because of the new engine. We know it will get a MMR radar, but not if it will be an AESA or the puls doppler MMR, that still is not developed yet. The pod station is strong enough to carry loads possibly even slightly above the 200Kg of the Litening pod, but that doesn't, mean it can be used for all kind of weapons. It defenitely can't carry 500Kg Paveway or Griffin LGBs, firing a missing right below the air intake is a bad idea as well, not to mention that there are lenght restrictions too.

Btw, I think you have forgotten that the 23mm gun is housed below the other air intake, which makes a hardpoint not possible at that position either:

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## Trisonics

*The Tejas Reportcard.*

This post is not mine but from a user named "Teer" from the key Publishing forum. The post is comprehensive and almost a report card on the Tejas. Enjoy...



Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - what's the Tejas' fundamental problem?


What this thread started from are the usual rubbish from media reports which couldn't tell a difference from a LCA or a MiG if both were given to them on a tray...and then there are the copy-paste sites like IDRW which either cook up stuff or plagiarize without an ounce of sense.

So you have the claim in this IDRW "report" of Tejas prototypes not being the same as each other. Common sense would have told these experts that the Tejas is WIP, with the MK1's still receiving improvements - heck, a dedicated local AFCS was just developed & fielded last year! So how would one prototype be the same as a LSP, and even the LSPs will vary from type to type, till the MK1 configuration is frozen!

Net - to take a proper look at where Tejas is today, as versus the same old, same old of buying a Swedish or Rwandan or Martian fighter (which does nothing for India), we have to look at what the actual challenges are!!

So..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
I would include inadequate and incompetent project management. For example appraisal and monitoring of Kaveri progress should have resulted in the project being frozen years earlier and outside expertise being sought IMO. When Tejas missed development time lines action should have been taken to investigate the reasons and measures taken to get the project back on schedule. Instead the project appeared to stagger on from missed target to missed target without anything being done to get a grip on the situation.

I hope the management of Mk2 will be better than that of Mk1.
These should also address your statements about project management! Unless you understand what the Tejas team faces in terms of challenges, you will not get where the program is.

*First - the Tejas today!*

There were several areas where the Tejas team had to develop world class capabilities from scratch.

*- Airframe with highest/high portion of composites* vis a vis even most contemporaries. Status? Achieved - and further improvements underway

*- Complete glass cockpit with HOTAS/HUD* etc- status? Achieved, and even IAF late requirements of HMDS incorporated. Please check the F-22 and other programs to see how much delay these can cause

*- Radar: I*AF initially asked for a simple AI radar with limited BVR capability; moved to significant BVR with SARH homers; moved to full MMR with significant A2G capability; Upgraded MMR requirement to include SAR! The previous configuration only had DBS and A2G ranging.

This is one of the key challenges for the Tejas because as late as a few years back, a combination of funding challenges & sanctions (post India's nuclear test) meant that the flawed decision to assign the MMR to HAL (a firm with very limited focus on radar development) meant that they could not handle the subsystem challenges (signal processor mismatch) or develop the software to maturity! The radar itself was sanctioned more than a decade after the LCA program was launched!

So, only some 2-3 years back, did Elta get roped in to tackle the issue to utilize the tech India had already developed for the radar. Pretty much all the hardware, from the high gain antenna, to the rotational scanner (developed by BARC, a nuclear agency with experience in high speed motors), to the TWT and power units! Elta is basically taking the Indian components, adding its own signal processor (with a specific focus on A2G) and porting its Elta 2032/M software to this hybrid radar, for the first 40 MK1s.

The easy approach would have been to just ditch all the Indian radar subsystems (though they work and work well) and replace with an Elta 2032/M as on the DARIN-3 Jaguars and Sea Harriers. India is NOT taking this approach because the radar, remains in ADA control and can be customized further locally.

Furthermore, the MK2 is to have an AESA system, for which development has been shifted from HAL to LRDE, which is DRDO's own radar specialist & which, by now, has significant experience with radars. Recognizing the challenges involving in producing compact fire control radar Tx/Rx modules, plus certifying the software, they will probably take consultancy. Again, this time around, the funding has been made available.

*- Next: Avionics.* Status, achieved, though the IAF will continue to ask for more & more as is usual ..so this is always a moving target. One of the core requirements of the LCA was that almost all the core items should be Indian, at the system/module integration level. This was achieved by the time of the TDs itself! But the IAF asked for a complete revamp to incorporate newer processors & architecture, to match what they saw on the Rafale/EF etc on the WW market. This too was done within 3 years. For instance, on the original LCA - you had dedicated mission computers, display processors, video switching units, digital map generators. Each with separate modules & processor units, all as separate boxed LRUs. In the current LCA, all these functions are now handled by a single OAC (Open Architecture Computer) running on high power processor cards, with another OAC on hot standby!

Next - late into the program, the IAF asked for the LCA to have an* internal EW capability!* Note - NO OTHER IAF aircraft - till date has had an internal EW capability from its procurement. The LCA team has certified both standard jammers & DARE (DRDO) has also developed a state of the art EW suite (high sensitivity multiple receivers connected to a matrix with multiple transmitters).

*- Engineering Development:* High level of maturity. As can be seen with the F-35, concurrent engineering is a big challenge for a densely packed platform. The LCA's dense package comes from the IAF requirement that the LCA be small enough to fit into the MiG-21 footprint. Yet, it should have the performance of the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, which were then the IAF's best fighter class platforms.

As such Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 pilots were deputed to the ADA for both specifications & later on, for many other configuration decisions. This means that ADA has had to take far harder decisions than those with larger platforms. Small changes in the LCA mean complex changes throughout. To ADA/HAL's credit, they have been managed inhouse. For instance, they redesigned/rerouted entire parts of the fuel system to avoid risk.

*- Flight Control & Certification: WIP. *This is the area where India had the least experience - remember, we just license built other folks aircraft, let alone build something as complex as a FBW system. So help was sought from the US for both the FCS hardware (actuators & flight control computer from MM and then LM), software (Martin Marietta then LM) and certification (BAE).

Lets take a look at what happened here. First, funding issues, slowing down the program at the beginning. When things picked up, by 1998, the sanctions stopped ALL consultancy with US vendors. The LCA team even so, did not stop the program - they actually indigenized the DFCC, replacing all the US systems with a new scratch built prototype (the US one was impounded by LM), set up a new control law team locally to develop the FBW software, and even traded actuator shipsets between both ground based rigs & flying aircraft, to keep the test program running. India lost a good 3 years here, but did not stop the program, as was the intent of the sanctions, to cancel the LCA for good!

BAE by the way, stopped their assistance, citing manpower issues for the EF program.

Effectively, this remains the LCA's final hurdle, which is why the delays have come in. The delays were baked into the program at the time of the sanction and have just carried over.

Now - a WW RFP was sent out for consultancy to speed up testing & EADS has been signed up. Boeing which gave a presentation to India for being the chosen vendor, never responded to the RFP as they did not get clearance from the State Dept.

By 2008, as I recall, 85% of the flight envelope had been opened up by India alone, and AoA had approached the 20-22 deg mark.
Now, to get to the final 10-15% PLUS weapons configurations, EADS should be helping out.

*Testing & certification with a FBW aircraft is NOT the same as with older aircraft. In those, you took them up, tested them (as long as structural limits held) and came back. With the LCA, each time they take any prototype up, the software is first reviewed multiple times, then run multiple times on the ground rig, finally put onto the test article (and remember, weights on these vary from other configurations) & flown. They are doing this with each & every test point on the chart. This is where EADS/BAE would help with "tribal knowledge", i.e. you don't need to test this "entire zone" because these "five test points" cover that sector.*

This is the IOC requirement summed up, and with weapons involved - which again involve iterative additions to the radar & FCS code (to handle different configurations), the LCA MK1 will get FOC.

Right now, the pilots love the FBW and handling. Its all about opening the envelope, and not about any critical issues with the system itself.

*- The engine! Contrary to belief here, the Kaveri program is no cause for delay now! Its been delinked from the program quite some time back, once funding was made available to order enough Ge404IN20s for the MK1 and enough have been ordered (as a first tranche) for the MK2 as well (99 engines, easily enough to cover 4 squadrons, spares plus those for prototypes).
*
As to why the program was linked heavily to the LCA, first- its a strategic program with no parallel elsewhere in the Indian MIC. No redundancy. If the LCA MMR was not sanctioned, there were always the naval airborne radars and later the CABS AEW&C to continue to build competence.

No such option exists for the Kaveri. But when funding became available, and the MOD saw the MOF would give it, they delinked the program to proceed on its own.

Net, to summarize!

The three key issues which the LCA team is working on (and will complete) are the Flight Envelope validation (fully opened up), and the weapons integration. For the first, including FBW tweaking to handle fuel/weight shifts- EADS has been hired as a consultant. India will do the work, but EADS basically is to tell them not to run after test points where time is wasted.

For the second, Elta is to ensure the radar works. For weapons integration - India now has three programs to draw on, the MiG-27, Jaguar and Shar upgrades. This is not going to be a showstopper.

Engineering development challenges can be handled locally.

Net - there is nothing now in the LCA program that is anywhere near the quantum of challenges that the ADA/HAL faced when starting this, or even when they were midway into the program in the early 2000's. Right now, its just a matter of putting the nose to the grindstone, and completing the job.

The media is going to continue to carp and attack the program, copy paste sites like IDRW will then take that and run with it, but its come too far now to be stopped by any of this.

Last but not least - all those claims of LCA MK1 not meeting ASRs/IAF unhappy are just overwrought.. the LCA MK1 as it stands will handily outperform the bulk of the IAF fleet of MiG-21s and Jaguars in A2A and strike.

If it didn't meet the overambitious requirements set out in the first tranche, that's still ok. The LCA of the 80's had to be as maneuverable as the MiG-29 with high ITRs of the Mirage 2000, and it had no HOBS missiles nor did it have a HMS.

*The LCA of today has HOBs missiles (R-73E confirmed, Python reported) and an Elbit DASH HMDS. A couple of degrees in marginal STR is not a showstopper. Similarly, 8G versus 9G in its MK1 - especially given the kind of platforms the IAF is facing, the JF-17 which too has a 8G limitation, is again not an issue.
*
Are these my views alone? No. They are first hand from the test pilots whom I (and many others) met at a public industry event sometime back. They have no qualms about the combat performance of the LCA MK1 whatsoever.

Yes, the IAF HQ wants a perfect fighter. It has the world's best toys available via import, and will not compromise. Thats tough for the developer, but still achievable. Because all said & done, the program is now a certainty, with 6 squadrons indented for (those 99 engines make the MK2 a reality as well) and funding for both MK1 and MK2 committed for by the GOI. Now, its just a matter of patience.

A lot of the stuff developed for the LCA is going to find its way onto the AMCA and before that, other IAF fighter programs as well as upgrades. There are folks who will get that done as well.

The biggest advantage for the AMCA will basically be all the lessons learnt in certification & having an ecosystem of developers who built 2Gen of products for the LCA. That is stuff India could not have ever achieved via buying a third party design.

When LCA started, India did not even have 1 MC of its own design. Today several firms can build Mission Computers for ADA (having worked on the LCA) and can code entire modules for subsystems. There are many software and hardware companies that have built stuff for the LCA, and then kept busy with upgrades.

Three years back, even Digital Map Generators - hitherto being imported from Israel as separate LRUs - were having a competition underway with 2 firms competed. With the missile program, India even has a local RLG-INS for serial production to replace the Sagem unit..

Right now, there is also talk of a LCA MK3. Apparently the IAF wants to really strengthen up against the PLAAF/PAF (hi-lo combo) and the LCA is its most cost effective choice.

However, one of the key advantages of the 5G program with Russia is the testing & certification part. Right now, India is at the test each & everything mode. Once experience builds up, and both databases and tribal knowledge exists - testing & certification will speed up. These can easily take off years off of a program.

That is going to be a key lesson learnt for the AMCA or whatever the IAF calls it..
Reply With Quote

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## AADHAAR

^^^^ Excellent Analysis !!!!!


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## sancho

Trisonics said:


> *The Tejas Reportcard.*
> 
> This post is not mine but from a user named "Teer" from the key Publishing forum. The post is comprehensive and almost a report card on the Tejas. Enjoy...



Interesting, but he left out the main points, because the real problems started way earlier! 

Who took the decisions about which companies develops the indigenous radar and engine?
Who took the decision to directly link these development with the fighter development and make LCA dependent on them?
Who took the decision to replace US systems after sanction indigenously, instead of getting them or at least new consultancy partners from Russia or France, which didn't posed sanctions on us?

All of these decisions wasn't made by IAF!

Blaming IAF for requirement changes, by ignoring the fact that the development of the fighter took way longer than initially planned and that several development goals wasn't met (airframe more than 1t heavier and with drag issues, engine too heavy and not enough thrust), doesn't make sense. They surely had their part too, but it should be clear that, IAF's requirements in 2000 wasn't the same that they had in the late 80s when the programm started. Also that no other IAF fighter had internal EW, doesn't mean that a new developed fighter doesn't need it either. Mirage, Su 30, Migs were designed and developed way earlier, while LCA was designed and developed with the future in mind and therefor internal EW was just logical!

The main problems for the LCA project are:

- disastrous project planning and management
- directly linking engine and radar developments with LCA
- poor and not logical decision making
- too much indigenous developments in fields without any experience or knowledge
- not using foreign consultancy partners, JVs or even co-developments from the start of the development


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## Abingdonboy



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## BlueDot_in_Space




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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Pics of FBW design LAB, ADA*

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## trident2010

What is the name of this discovery channel documentary?


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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> *Pics of FBW design LAB, ADA*



Blue ***- please, _please_,* PLEASE* provide us this video online!!


+ that guys looks funny just sitting there with a HMDS (TOPSIGHT-I IIRC) on!

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## karan21

This video will tell the Pakistanis what it takes to build an effing fighter. They make fun of us. I bet there is no engineer in Pak who can even figure out drdo labs, leave building them from scratch.

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## karan21

effing man we need the video, wtf I need it right now


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## sancho

karan21 said:


> This video will tell the Pakistanis what it takes to build an effing fighter. They make fun of us. I bet there is no engineer in Pak who can even figure out drdo labs, leave building them from scratch.



Don't we have enough threads ruined by unnecessary blame games?

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## karan21

sancho said:


> Don't we have enough threads ruined by unnecessary blame games?



No one will blame anyone. I definitely won't but the way pics are coming up showing secret labs, it will be self realization for many that people in DRDO arenot retarted and not sitting idle. Tejas is delayed because of bad project management and over expectations but this video will thoroughly display the capabilities developed in 20 yrs. And trust me India is now getting better with project management too. Future will be much more smoother.

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## Abingdonboy

karan21 said:


> This video will tell the Pakistanis what it takes to build an effing fighter. They make fun of us. I bet there is no engineer in Pak who can even figure out drdo labs, leave building them from scratch.



Seconded:


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## sancho

karan21 said:


> No one will blame anyone. I definitely won't but the way pics are coming up showing secret labs, it will be self realization for many that people in DRDO arenot retarted and not sitting idle. Tejas is delayed because of bad project management and over expectations but this video will thoroughly display the capabilities developed in 20 yrs. And trust me India is now getting better with project management too. Future will be much more smoother.



First of all, how secret can it be, when they let a camera team for a western show in? 
Secondly, these pics doesn't prove anything exactly because Tejas is not operational yet with the techs and exactly because DRDO is responsible for the failurs in the project management. So no need to bring Pakistan, or who is better comparisons in here and lets stick with the fighter itself.

Gn8

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## Water Car Engineer

*BLUE!!!!!*


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## karan21

sancho said:


> First of all, how secret can it be, when they let a camera team for a western show in?
> Secondly, these pics doesn't prove anything exactly because Tejas is not operational yet with the techs and exactly because DRDO is responsible for the failurs in the project management. So no need to bring Pakistan, or who is better comparisons in here and lets stick with the fighter itself.
> 
> Gn8




yess sir )

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *BLUE!!!!!*



What does that mean??


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> What does that mean??



I hope blue uploads the video if he has it.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Water Car Engineer said:


> I hope blue uploads the video if he has it.



I have the video, but unfortunately when I was recording it did not have audio stream . The quality is also not good, I am converting the video to have only relevant info will upload it soon provided sandy spares me.

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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> I have the video, but unfortunately when I was recording it did not have audio stream . The quality is also not good, I am converting the video to have only relevant info will upload it soon provided sandy spares me.



Okay then-eagerly awaiting the vid all the same! It's really annoying you can't find these online though!!


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## kam83

Water Car Engineer said:


> I hope blue uploads the video if he has it.



i saw the documentary its was nothing gr8.....i think it was shot way earlier during early flights of LCA 2002-2003 

highlights of the documentary:-
1) india developed the carbon fiber composites for the body frame of LCA
2) they also developed stimulator for training which was praised by many senior pilots
3) this was intresting ....IB & world fighter jet experts had predicted LCA would crash in his first maiden flight ...following which Defence minister of that time Mr.George Fernendes called the LCA project head....who on hearing the doubt....requested the defence minister to come and see 4 himself if LCA crashes or fly........And viola its flew baby..And still no crash 
4) it praised the FBW developed for the LCA as one the best system in world ...it made flying very easy ..pilot of mirage found LCA more nimble and aagile 
5)All in all they called it 4+ gen plane with MK-2 belonging to 4++ gen or u can say 4.5+ gen

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## Gessler

kam83 said:


> i saw the documentary its was nothing gr8.....i think it was shot way earlier during early flights of LCA 2002-2003
> 
> highlights of the documentary:-
> 1) india developed the carbon fiber composites for the body frame of LCA
> 2) they also developed stimulator for training which was praised by many senior pilots
> 3) this was intresting ....IB & world fighter jet experts had predicted LCA would crash in his first maiden flight ...following which Defence minister of that time Mr.George Fernendes called the LCA project head....who on hearing the doubt....requested the defence minister to come and see 4 himself if LCA crashes or fly........And viola its flew baby..And still no crash
> 4) it praised the FBW developed for the LCA as one the best system in world ...it made flying very easy ..pilot of mirage found LCA more nimble and aagile
> 5)All in all they called it 4+ gen plane with MK-2 belonging to 4++ gen or u can say 4.5+ gen



Now LCA is close to completing 2,000 flight hours without a single accident, let alone a crash.

@anyone

How many sorties do you guys think Tejas will fly dropping bombs in the Feb-2013 LiveWire exercise?


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## Asskicker

kam83 said:


> i saw the documentary its was nothing gr8.....*i think it was shot way earlier during early flights of LCA 2002-2003 *
> 
> highlights of the documentary:-
> 1) india developed the carbon fiber composites for the body frame of LCA
> 2) they also developed stimulator for training which was praised by many senior pilots
> 3) this was intresting ....IB & world fighter jet experts had predicted LCA would crash in his first maiden flight ...following which Defence minister of that time Mr.George Fernendes called the LCA project head....who on hearing the doubt....requested the defence minister to come and see 4 himself if LCA crashes or fly........And viola its flew baby..And still no crash
> 4) it praised the FBW developed for the LCA as one the best system in world ...it made flying very easy ..pilot of mirage found LCA more nimble and aagile
> 5)All in all they called it 4+ gen plane with MK-2 belonging to 4++ gen or u can say 4.5+ gen



No its a recent one may 6 to 8 months back video ,even i saw that video on discovery channel,they mentioned that LCA has completed *2,000* flight hours successfully without any accidents.


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## trident2010

I cannot wait to see Tejas in IAF colours. Hope it gets FOC soon.


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## Gessler

trident2010 said:


> I cannot wait to see Tejas in IAF colours. Hope it gets FOC soon.



You can already see it in IAF colors.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Gessler

^^already posted pics bro.


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## sasi

Detachment 2012 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft
~
Got it from BR.

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## Gessler

sasi said:


> Detachment 2012 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft
> ~
> Got it from BR.



Extraordinary pictures sasi !!

@all members

those interested please go throuhg ALL sections of the gallery this is the best collection of
Tejas pics ever !!


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## kam83

gessler said:


> Now LCA is close to completing 2,000 flight hours without a single accident, let alone a crash.



Goes to show you how much foreign interest is involved to make sure LCA fails ...but boss jiske saath 1 billion logo ki ummeed aur blessing judi ho use to agge badna hi hai

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## rockstarIN

Abingdonboy said:


>



Which missile is it in the wingtip? Original R-73?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Which missile is it in the wingtip? Original R-73?



Yes, so far only R60 and R73 WVR missile were integrated.

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## sasi

gessler said:


> Extraordinary pictures sasi !!
> 
> @all members
> 
> those interested please go throuhg ALL sections of the gallery this is the best collection of
> Tejas pics ever !!



Credit goes to, Kedar Karmarkar who is a renowned aviation photographer.

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## trident2010

sancho said:


> Yes, so far only R60 and R73 WVR missile were integrated.



Any idea when they going to test BVR with Tejas?


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Any idea when they going to test BVR with Tejas?



Depends on the radar developments and integration process. If the recent reports are true, that is one of the problems at the moment, since the integration of A2G capability don't seems to be an issue.


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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Depends on the radar developments and integration process. If the recent reports are true, that is one of the problems at the moment, since the integration of A2G capability don't seems to be an issue.



Why is integration of Israeli Derby AAM with Israeli-designed EL/M-2032 giving problems?
Even Russian Vympel R-73E and Molniya R-60M have been successfully integrated.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> Why is integration of Israeli Derby AAM with Israeli-designed EL/M-2032 giving problems?
> Even Russian Vympel R-73E and Molniya R-60M have been successfully integrated.



The latter were integrated to the fighter and not on a radar so far and we still don't know if the MK1s will have the normal 2032, or if they still try to fix the indigenous MMR. Integrating 2032 is not an issue, we have done it with Jaguars and Sea Harriers and the latter even with Derby missiles, so I guess they still can't let go the indigenous radar.


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## DARKY

TEJAS VIDEO NAT GEO PRESENTATION






I liked the composite fabrication part.

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> The latter were integrated to the fighter and not on a radar so far and we still don't know if the MK1s will have the normal 2032, or if they still try to fix the indigenous MMR. Integrating 2032 is not an issue, we have done it with Jaguars and Sea Harriers and the latter even with Derby missiles, so I guess they still can't let go the indigenous radar.



Maybe they're working on indigenous MMR derived from the technologies of EL/M-2032...


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> The latter were integrated to the fighter and not on a radar so far and we still don't know if the MK1s will have the normal 2032, or if they still try to fix the indigenous MMR. Integrating 2032 is not an issue, we have done it with Jaguars and Sea Harriers and the latter even with Derby missiles, so I guess they still can't let go the indigenous radar.



I think they are really not okay with 2032 radar which added and in use for A2A in harriers or derby range. Otherwise it could have inducted to LCA for A2A. I may be lesser range of 2032 or lesser range of Derby or/and the both.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> Maybe they're working on indigenous MMR derived from the technologies of EL/M-2032...



Not a derived, but to integrate certain features of the 2032 into the indigenous MMR.



rockstar said:


> I think they are really not okay with 2032 radar which added and in use for A2A in harriers or derby range. Otherwise it could have inducted to LCA for A2A. I may be lesser range of 2032 or lesser range of Derby or/and the both.



Doubtful because the Israeli radar specs are pretty good in it's class and LCA has a quiet large nose to fit a radar with a big diameter compared to it's overall size and if Derby would have too less range, why did IN and IAF selected it? They know what range it has from the Sea Harriers.

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## TMTHEMARCOS

laman12345 said:


> Only India need to learn English
> 
> Many Western people learning Chinese now
> 
> We Chinese is the most people spoken English in the world
> 
> hahaha
> 
> by the way, Light LCA + Heavy and Big AESA = The biggest joke in the world



well your ENGLISH IS PATHETIC than a 5th grader........maybe u r one...and also joke is on you....so enjoy..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

First flight of single LCA is awesome.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Not a derived, but to integrate certain features of the 2032 into the indigenous MMR.
> 
> 
> 
> Doubtful because the Israeli radar specs are pretty good in it's class and LCA has a quiet large nose to fit a radar with a big diameter compared to it's overall size and if Derby would have too less range, why did IN and IAF selected it? They know what range it has from the Sea Harriers.



If the nose is big enough, radar and missiles are available whats the problem with integrating them?

We did it for other platforms so fast?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> If the nose is big enough, radar and missiles are available whats the problem with integrating them?
> 
> We did it for other platforms so fast?



As I said earlier:



> Integrating 2032 is not an issue, we have done it with Jaguars and Sea Harriers and the latter even with Derby missiles, *so I guess they still can't let go the indigenous radar.*

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## BlueDot_in_Space

The video is created from the Inside out LCA tejas and shows the facilities for testing Control law software. There was no audio stream while recording, so no sound only video.

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## Gessler

LCA (Navy) with an escort Air Force variant jet.


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## DacterSaab

^^ why's the landing gear not retracted?


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## rockstarIN

DacterSaab said:


> ^^ why's the landing gear not retracted?



Coz of its first flight


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## Agent_47



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## rahul_rao

At a time when the US is fast-developing hypersonic bombers capable of flying at 20 times the speed of sound, India's largely home-grown Tejas light combat aircraft will 'not be ready to go to war' anytime before 2015.

The latest assessment of Tejas, which has now clocked close to 2,000 flights in its almost three-decade-long saga, holds the light-weight fighter will be capable of firing guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as air-to-air refuelling only by 2015 at the earliest, say defence ministry sources. That is when the single-engine Tejas will become fully combat-ready after getting the final operational clearance (FOC). The review suggests that the fighter is again headed to miss a deadline. The project was started in 1983 to replace Mig 21s.

So far, Tejas has achieved only initial operational clearance-I (IOC-I) to certify it's airworthiness. "The IOC-II for the fighter, which also includes integration of some weapons like laser-guided bombs, was pushed back to December 2012. But now, it will only be possible by July, 2013, or so after over 200 more sorties. FOC will come only two years after that,'' said a source.

India will eventually spend over Rs 25,000 crore in the entire Tejas programme, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the failed Kaveri engine, as reported by TOI. But more than the cost, it's the time taken to develop a fully-tested, weapons-ready fighter that underlines how critical defence projects should not be run.

While it is true that developing a supersonic fly-by-wire fighter from scratch was never going to be easy, the entire project could have been managed much better. IAF, on its part, is supporting the fighter programme since it knows the country's need to have indigenous weapon systems is strategically critical.


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## AADHAAR

^^^ "20 times the speed of sound".


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## rahul_rao

AADHAAR said:


> ^^^ "20 times the speed of sound".


TOI report hai mere bhai


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy

I don't know if it has been posted before, it is pretty remarkable all the same:





(from Boeing's own power point!)

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## sexy gun

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't know if it has been posted before, it is pretty remarkable all the same:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (from Boeing's own power point!)



Thats good


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## kurup

Composite content of LCA-TEJAS airframe is at 45% by weight of the basic airframe and about 90% of the aerodynamically wetted surface.

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## Doctor Death

How many flight hours has LCA completed.


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## Tshering22

Abingdonboy said:


>



Glad to see that our boy won't be old when it comes out in in January and instead be state of the art with constant upgrading of technology inside.

Though I just pray its an all-black cockpit. That smurf blue Russian-inspired color of cockpits was a real put off.

Even Russians don't like it..

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## kurup

Doctor Death said:


> How many flight hours has LCA completed.



Almost 2000 flight by july 2012.


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## Gessler

Tshering22 said:


> Glad to see that our boy won't be old when it comes out in in January and instead be state of the art with constant upgrading of technology inside.
> 
> Though I just pray its an all-black cockpit. That smurf blue Russian-inspired color of cockpits was a real put off.
> 
> Even Russians don't like it..



the best part is that the age-old dial instruments have all been removed and replaced with screens.


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## baqai

^ i don't know if that's a good thing or not, i mean there should always be analogues to fall back upon


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## BlueDot_in_Space

baqai said:


> ^ i don't know if that's a good thing or not, i mean there should always be analogues to fall back upon



Its quad redundant, no need for analog.

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## Gessler

baqai said:


> ^ i don't know if that's a good thing or not, i mean there should always be analogues to fall back upon



Tell that to the cockpits of F-22, F-35 or Rafale.

Analog dials are obsolete as per today's standards of fighter plane cockpit systems.


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## Abingdonboy

baqai said:


> ^ i don't know if that's a good thing or not, i mean there should always be analogues to fall back upon



Today when you have planes that are inherently unstable flying and are only controlable through advanced FBW systems the only time you would need annalougue dials would be a complete and catastropchic flight system/comuputer problem and if that was to happen the utility of an analougue dial is nil because you are in deep $hit! The last thing a pilot is going to be worrying about is the lack of back-up dials-they will have ejected long ago! This is why nowadays advasnced fighters like the LCA have quadraple redundancies and excelaltn safety records.

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## rahul_rao

do anyone have pics of tejas' flare trials????


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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## Gessler

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>



^^Vympel R-60M IR-guided WVRAAMs.

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## sudhir007

So they start testing 

LCA-Tejas has completed 1944 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Nov-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-238*,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,*LSP5-106,LSP7-5*,NP1-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights Successfully. (12-July-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-105,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

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## Gessler

sudhir007 said:


> So they start testing
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1944 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-106,*LSP7-5*,NP1-4)
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights Successfully. (12-July-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-105,LSP7-4,NP1-4)



what is this? only 3 flights in 4 months?


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## Jason bourne

gessler said:


> ^^Vympel R-60M IR-guided WVRAAMs.


///
can anyone provide original pic of tejas firing R-73

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## sudhir007

Jason bourne said:


> ///
> can anyone provide original pic of tejas firing R-73

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## rockstarIN

gessler said:


> what is this? only 3 flights in 4 months?



There were a fuel leak problem encountered. I think they rectified the same in all the LSPs and now ready for flight.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

*DEVELOPMENT & SUPPLY OF MOTORISED FUEL TRANSFER VALVE (MFTV)For LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT (LCA)* Programme, 11 Oct 2012

A better C.G management is planned for LCA Tejas by employing Active Fuel Proportioner using the motorized valves. The typical C.G travel is (3%) due to the fuel consumption in Tejas that makes it less unstable and so less maneuverable when the wing fuel tanks are empty. Currently, a passive fuel proportioner is being employed in Tejas to limit the maximum fuel travel within ±0.5%.


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## arp2041

*LCA High AOA Testing Update*

I understand the LCA will clear its high AOA testing using LSP 6 without fitment of a spin recovery chute.

LSP 6 has been rigged for high AOA testing and is yet to fly.

Fitment of a spin recovery chute would have put the program back considerably because of a need to accurately evaluate airflow changes caused by the fitment of a structure on top of the aircraft to house the spin recover chute, through computer simulations.

ADA has been advised by British Aerospace, its consultant, to instead resort to incremental testing with extensive monitoring and evaluation of airflow patterns around the aircraft every time the alpha is increased.

The aim is to fly it to 26 alpha, from the currently achieved 22 alpha, in several small steps, with a thorough analysis of airflow patterns after each incremental flight.

LCA High AOA Testing Update

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## Gessler

arp2041 said:


> *LCA High AOA Testing Update*
> 
> I understand the LCA will clear its high AOA testing using LSP 6 without fitment of a spin recovery chute.
> 
> LSP 6 has been rigged for high AOA testing and is yet to fly.
> 
> Fitment of a spin recovery chute would have put the program back considerably because of a need to accurately evaluate airflow changes caused by the fitment of a structure on top of the aircraft to house the spin recover chute, through computer simulations.
> 
> ADA has been advised by British Aerospace, its consultant, to instead resort to incremental testing with extensive monitoring and evaluation of airflow patterns around the aircraft every time the alpha is increased.
> 
> The aim is to fly it to 26 alpha, from the currently achieved 22 alpha, in several small steps, with a thorough analysis of airflow patterns after each incremental flight.
> 
> LCA High AOA Testing Update



26 degrees AoA would be fine enough for a jet that carries Derby AAMs (that can pull 76Gs) and equipped
with HMDS for off-boresight target acquisition.


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## arp2041

gessler said:


> 26 degrees AoA would be fine enough for a jet that carries Derby AAMs (that can pull 76Gs) and equipped
> with HMDS for off-boresight target acquisition.



Hey gessler, pls explain to me what exactly is AOA & it's use, if u can

thanks in advance

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## rockstarIN

arp2041 said:


> Hey gessler, pls explain to me what exactly is AOA & it's use, if u can
> 
> thanks in advance



Angle of attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above will help.


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## rockstarIN

gessler said:


> 26 degrees AoA would be fine enough for a jet that carries Derby AAMs (that can pull 76Gs) and equipped
> with HMDS for off-boresight target acquisition.



It will be an achievement if it is 26 without the help of chute. We can achieve higher when we fit new engine. 

Actually out testing centre guys are so rigid that they even does not want a simple flaw. The US guys told during NLCA test that they allow test flights at much more extent.


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## Abingdonboy

rockstar said:


> It will be an achievement if it is 26 without the help of chute. We can achieve higher when we fit new engine.
> 
> Actually out testing centre guys are so rigid that they even does not want a simple flaw. The US guys told during NLCA test that they allow test flights at much more extent.



This overly cautious route was mandated by the MoD in the LCA's early days where a crash or major mishap would have been curtains for the LCA development project as a whole. As it stands any crash today would still be a mjor setback for the program and would add years to the deoyment process as the IAF and IN called for proof of the plane's safety. This is a contributing factor (not a huge one) to the LCA's relatively slow development pace. If you look at other projects that had 100% backing from their prospective buyers like the V-22 or F-22/35 the project developers feel more empowered to take a more aggressive development path that may end up in accidents or crashes.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This overly cautious route was mandated by the MoD in the LCA's early days where a crash or major mishap would have been curtains for the LCA development project as a whole. As it stands any crash today would still be a mjor setback for the program and would add years to the deoyment process as the IAF and IN called for proof of the plane's safety. This is a contributing factor (not a huge one) to the LCA's relatively slow development pace. If you look at other projects that had 100% backing from their prospective buyers like the V-22 or F-22/35 the project developers feel more empowered to take a more aggressive development path that may end up in accidents or crashes.



But you can't really compare LCA with them, neither as projects nor as aircrafts. Flying LCA is way simpler than flying a V22, not to mention that the V22 and F35 are technologically way more advanced. For the rather simple development of LCA, we do have too high limitations at it seems and that's why they want to clear everything before they will induct it.


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## AADHAAR

sancho said:


> But you can't really compare LCA with them, neither as projects nor as aircrafts. Flying LCA is way simpler than flying a V22, not to mention that the V22 and F35 are technologically way more advanced. For the rather simple development of LCA, we do have too high limitations at it seems and that's why they want to clear everything before they will induct it.



Both J-10s and JF-17s have crashed.
But China / Pak don't have an option to cancel either of these programs.

If the J-10 / JF-17 type experience had happened in India, IAF and IN would have promptly cancelled both programs.

Like it or not, an LCA with 4 crashes by 2004, would have been essentially become a "historical attempt" by 2006.

Further, hit-and-try approach to development can be quicker (if you get lucky, once in a while) but otherwise costlier, in general.

We're not at war or otherwise undefended (Su30 MKIs dominate any other combat aircraft in action in Asia, as of now) ... that we try "guesswork" in design and hope to get lucky. 

Rigourous theoretical design and ground testing is a wise decision.. IMO.

Hence, I completely agree with Abingdonboy.

That said, DRDO can use the LCA and Kaveri engine experience to cut down project timelines and budgetary allocations for future proejcts.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

rockstar said:


> It will be an achievement if it is 26 without the help of chute. We can achieve higher when we fit new engine.
> 
> Actually out testing centre guys are so rigid that they even does not want a simple flaw. The US guys told during NLCA test that they allow test flights at much more extent.



Higher AOA can be achieved with the current engine, the challenge is going beyond 25 degrees. As per ADA, beyond 25 degrees LCA will require artificial stability augmentation in Yaw. Achieving very AOA is pointless as IAF wants max AOA of 26 degrees and most operational fighters are restricted to 25 degrees.

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## Kompromat

F-22'S , Su-30s and F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales have crashed too, does that make them unreliable jets so much that it leads to a project cancellation ? - Educate yourself, as a matter of fact "you need to have a jet" to crash it, if you can't have one, there would be no crashes.. Its simple math..


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## IndoUS

Aeronaut said:


> F-22'S , Su-30s and F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales have crashed too, does that make them unreliable jets so much that it leads to a project cancellation ? - Educate yourself, as a matter of fact "you need to have a jet" to crash it, if you can't have one, there would be no crashes.. Its simple math..



You didn't get wht he was saying. In india even if there is a single failure there is a high chance the project would be cut. While in case of other countries this is not the case. The politicians in India don't quite understand the process of improvement after a failure, so if there had been a crash the project would have been scrapped.


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## Kompromat

IndoUS said:


> You didn't get wht he was saying. In india even if there is a single failure there is a high chance the project would be cut. While in case of other countries this is not the case. The politicians in India don't quite understand the process of improvement after a failure, so if there had been a crash the project would have been scrapped.



Highly unlikely.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Aeronaut said:


> F-22'S , Su-30s and F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales have crashed too, does that make them unreliable jets so much that it leads to a project cancellation ? - Educate yourself, as a matter of fact "you need to have a jet" to crash it, if you can't have one, there would be no crashes.. Its simple math..

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## arp2041

Aeronaut said:


> F-22'S , Su-30s and F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales have crashed too, does that make them unreliable jets so much that it leads to a project cancellation ? - Educate yourself, as a matter of fact "you need to have a jet" to crash it, if you can't have one, there would be no crashes.. Its simple math..



This is the tragedy of indigenous development in India, if a project with high stakes show negative development in it's nascent stages than there are high chance that the project will see cancellation, same was the case with Indian early warning systems/ AEW Airavat project which was scrapped when a testbed was crashed killing scientists & crew on board, DRDO was in advance stages of an AEW development just to see itself start from scratch again. There are too many people (bureaucrats, IAF top leadership, foreign companies, etc.) waiting to grab any opportunity to scrap the LCA project & a crash will provide them just what they need.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

arp2041 said:


> This is the tragedy of indigenous development in India, if a project with high stakes show negative development in it's nascent stages than there are high chance that the project will see cancellation, same was the case with Indian early warning systems/ AEW Airavat project which was scrapped when a testbed was crashed killing scientists & crew on board, DRDO was in advance stages of an AEW development just to see itself start from scratch again. There are too many people (bureaucrats, IAF top leadership, foreign companies, etc.) waiting to grab any opportunity to scrap the LCA project & a crash will provide them just what they need.



Taking risk is not in our culture, this needs to be changed.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> But you can't really compare LCA with them, neither as projects nor as aircrafts. Flying LCA is way simpler than flying a V22, not to mention that the V22 and F35 are technologically way more advanced. For the rather simple development of LCA, we do have too high limitations at it seems and that's why they want to clear everything before they will induct it.


Yes but these are US programs. The technolocical jump India made from the Marut to the LCA was HUGE. It is all relative.


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## Abingdonboy

Aeronaut said:


> F-22'S , Su-30s and F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales have crashed too, does that make them unreliable jets so much that it leads to a project cancellation ? - Educate yourself, as a matter of fact "you need to have a jet" to crash it, if you can't have one, there would be no crashes.. Its simple math..



Of course no one is saying that! The LCA program had different constrinats placed on it. A crash in the LCA would have been catestropcioc for the entire program as a whole as such the engineers have taken a more cautious approach and made sure every little thing is perfect, has been simulated on the ground and on computer before a test flight is carried out. Other programs have had the luxary to take more aggresive devlopment routes where maybe less time was spent testing on the ground and being as rigorous. This doesn't detract at all from the plane's relaiblity at all because protoypes are not the final production model. If production models start falling out of the sky then you have a problem but not so much with a single protype accident. Once the LCA is in production and has proved itself then Indian designers and engineers can afford to take a more aggresive design and testing pholisphy with their new products. As it stands the LCA has to maintain its perfect safety record. It is what it is.

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## Storm Force

No matter what SOME PEOPLE say indians pakistanis & chinease a like 

INDIA NEEDS A SINGLE ENGINED FIGHTER TO ARGUMENT A PROPOSED FLEET OF 450 SU30MKI /RAFALE COMBO BY 2024 which are all hyper expensive twin engined fighters costing $60m & $100m each. 

A single engined fleet of 200 fighters @ $35m each is needed to give IAF at least 650 fighters on total.

THIS IS WHY no matter how many delays take place LCA will be inducted eventually BETTER LATE than NEVER


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## SamantK

arp2041 said:


> This is the tragedy of indigenous development in India, if a project with high stakes show negative development in it's nascent stages than there are high chance that the project will see cancellation, same was the case with Indian early warning systems/ AEW Airavat project which was scrapped when a testbed was crashed killing scientists & crew on board, DRDO was in advance stages of an AEW development just to see itself start from scratch again. There are too many people (bureaucrats, IAF top leadership, foreign companies, etc.) waiting to grab any opportunity to scrap the LCA project & a crash will provide them just what they need.



Also, there is this Indian mentality where no one likes to take the responsibility of a failure but jump up and down to accept the praise.. Its just how Indians grow up!

Hence, least appetite for risk.


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## AADHAAR

samantk said:


> Also, there is this Indian mentality where no one likes to take the responsibility of a failure but jump up and down to accept the praise.. Its just how Indians grow up!
> 
> Hence, least appetite for risk.



And see the same thing has happened to GSLV Mk-3 ... they were earlier flying one GSLV almost every year.

But the two crashes (both in a gap of just six months) ... although both were due to different reasons -(1) In the first all went well upto the fourth cryo stage, when the turbo pump failed to start in the indigenous cryo, (2) the connector between the first and second stage ripped due to heavier payload.

And so, ISRO is now having to be extra-cautious with GSLV flights ... while PSLV flies without a problem.

On the positive side, it brings discipline. One LCA crash would have been $ 40 million lost right away. And you won't even be certain or get as much data, as a ground testing would reveal in wind tunnels.

One GSLV crash means Rs 400 crore (about $80 million) loss ... and only now ISRO needs to be more careful with GSLV. A $160 million loss in a gap of six months is huge to kill free funding to any R&D project in India.

Anyway, the success of PSLV is which makes ISRO still in business; and the "political space" to continue getting some funds for GSLV. 

Without the successful PSLV, very likely GSLV would have found really hard to find any new funds (especially in this economic situation).

Let's hope, whenever GSLV Mk-3 flies, it's as robust and reliable at the current PSLV.

Well.. well... now this has become a grossly off-topic post. sorry.


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## rockstarIN

AADHAAR said:


> Both J-10s and JF-17s have crashed.
> But China / Pak don't have an option to cancel either of these programs.
> 
> If the J-10 / JF-17 type experience had happened in India, IAF and IN would have promptly cancelled both programs.
> 
> Like it or not, an LCA with 4 crashes by 2004, would have been essentially become a "historical attempt" by 2006.
> 
> Further, hit-and-try approach to development can be quicker (if you get lucky, once in a while) but otherwise costlier, in general.
> 
> We're not at war or otherwise undefended (Su30 MKIs dominate any other combat aircraft in action in Asia, as of now) ... that we try "guesswork" in design and hope to get lucky.
> 
> Rigourous theoretical design and ground testing is a wise decision.. IMO.
> 
> Hence, I completely agree with Abingdonboy.
> *
> That said, DRDO can use the LCA and Kaveri engine experience to cut down project timelines and budgetary allocations for future proejcts.*



The point is, plans like making a fighter jet or an engine development by ourselves can't come every time. See the AMCA's fate, it is still in design phase and that concept yet to get into IAFs future plans.


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## AADHAAR

rockstar said:


> The point is, plans like making a fighter jet or an engine development by ourselves can't come every time. See the AMCA's fate, it is still in design phase and that concept yet to get into IAFs future plans.



I meant that discipline is needed not only in rigorous design and testing.

Discipline is also needed in cost and timelines.

It's not like a "rigourously designed and thoroughly ground-tested" plane is impossible to crash in a flight test. 

So, it's right concoction of 1. Technological capabilities built, 2. Costs, 3. Timelines .. which all need to be optimized.

AMCA will surely face new challenges ... more than LCA, since LCA incorporates comtemporary technologies; but AMCA needs technologies which are under development in the west.

As far as the technological capabilities we have developed with LCA, we did the right thing by applying rigorous standards to quality (and to costs which we were willing to incur). Timelines of the LCA never hurt us ... since we have already got a strong air force for meeting the current requirements. In fact, so much that with J-10 type of things inducted, even a delay in Rafale doesn't put us under any real stress. Rafale is more to absorb technologies that come with it; and less to do with it being necessary to ward of china or any other immediate threat.


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## cirr

AADHAAR said:


> Both J-10s and JF-17s have crashed.
> But China / Pak don't have an option to cancel either of these programs.
> 
> If the J-10 / JF-17 type experience had happened in India, IAF and IN would have promptly cancelled both programs.
> 
> Like it or not, an LCA with 4 crashes by 2004, would have been essentially become a "historical attempt" by 2006.
> 
> Further, hit-and-try approach to development can be quicker (if you get lucky, once in a while) but otherwise costlier, in general.
> 
> We're not at war or otherwise undefended (Su30 MKIs dominate any other combat aircraft in action in Asia, as of now) ... that we try "guesswork" in design and hope to get lucky.
> 
> Rigourous theoretical design and ground testing is a wise decision.. IMO.
> 
> Hence, I completely agree with Abingdonboy.
> 
> That said, DRDO can use the LCA and Kaveri engine experience to cut down project timelines and budgetary allocations for future proejcts.



J-10s&#65311;I take the S as plural&#12290;Right&#65311;

Can you back up your wild claim with any concrete evidence&#65311;

As far as I know NOT a single J-10 has crashed so far&#12290;

Use your brain before make sweeping remarks next time&#12290;Otherwise you&#8216;d be only making a fool of yourself&#65281;&#65281;


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## Gessler

cirr said:


> J-10s&#65311;I take the S as plural&#12290;Right&#65311;
> 
> Can you back up your wild claim with any concrete evidence&#65311;
> 
> As far as I know NOT a single J-10 has crashed so far&#12290;
> 
> Use your brain before make sweeping ramarks next time&#12290;Otherwise you wil be only making a fool of yourself&#65281;&#65281;



This proves your brain is just filled with CPC-fed nonsense.

J-10 crash, pilot dead
^^This one in 2010

















^^ From here - J-10 2007 crash photos
^^This one from 2007

There go your multiple crashes, there were 2 more crashes other than this but china is trying its best
to *hide them* lolz

China tries to hide J-10 crashes

Shameless peoples does not even have balls to face some humiliation. It seems you know only as far as
CPC wnats you to! Are your employers hiding something from you?

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## whitefox011

nice find gessler now chinese trolls get lost


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## Gessler

PLAAF Colonel Xie Fengliang died in the 2010 crash. Its strange these nationalist chinese trolls
haven't even acknowledged the death of a pilot - brainwashed by CPC, that they are.

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## sancho

AADHAAR said:


> Both J-10s and JF-17s have crashed.
> But China / Pak don't have an option to cancel either of these programs.



They don't have to, nor would LCA be cancelled just because of a crash, because you first have to figure out why the crash happend! If there was a pilot error or a bird strike, why would you cancel the fighter project? That's what I pointed out with the V22, it is technically way more advanced and also difficult to handle it, several crashes were caused by pilot error. That's tragic, but can't be a reason to cancel the whole project, if it's otherwise still reasonable.
Btw, if we would wanted to cancel LCA, there would be noumerus of other reasons, delays, costoveruns, the failure of engine and radar developments. But the fact is, MoD and even the forces sticked to it, they hoped (imo waaaay too long) that our engineers will get it done. They fixed the failures of the planing stage and got proven stopgap engines, as well as consultants for the radar development and navalising. All this would never be done, if MoD and the forces would not want LCA, infact it proves exactly the opposite!
And there are other examples too, our UAVs were crashing quiet often during development stage and still they wasn't cancelled, Saras crashed with a tragic loss of lifes, HALs IJT crashed too and still all these developments were continued by MoD and the forces.

Our problem is not MoD not supporting indigenous developments, nor threatening to cancel them, but that we always make them too complicated, although a simple approach would be more suitable to the current level of know how in our industry. Why had the Saras needs to be a pusher rotor concept and not a normal design? Why did we formed JVs with Israel on unmanned helicopters, but not on UAVs? And I have stated the issues in LCAs planing often enough, just like this over protection of the fighter and the induction is an issue as well.

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## AADHAAR

^^^ The quoted reasons for J-10 crashes were 

(1) poor fly-by-wire system (which led to crash and killed the pilot), and 

(2) chinese claimed that AL-31 engine failed and it crashed, again killing the pilot.

(The other two known crashes had reasons like complete loss of avionics, but pilot managed to land the aircraft etc).

Neither of these is bird-hit or pilot error related.

Now imagine... if you have had an example of LCA crashing because of lacking fly-by-wire system.... *you see the chorus, in the media, in the parliament* --> _"Heyyy...are our pilots lives cheap that they fly a poor quality aircraft", "DRDO is generations behind the west, it will never be able to build a fly-by-wire system", "India's defence put to risk by an inferior quality aircraft."_ ... bla ... bla..

The crash photos of LCA (like the ones of J-10 you see above) would have been on the cover pages of India Today and Outlook. And I say, *people like yourself would have urged .... no point trying this... it's "rocket science" (for us). We just can't do it. Let's close the project.* !! (I take the clue from your views about Kaveri engine.. you do believe it's rocket science for Indians. Damn close the project. It's a failure, already).

The JF-17 crash did relate to pilot error / bird-hit thing .... but you know, even if LCA had crashed due to pilot error.. the chorus ..... including possibly "IAF sources" would have started singing.... that _"Ho.. that damn LCA has poor interfaces, and it's just too easy to crash such an unwieldly aircraft"._

You see .... in India, how pilot error is easily translated into aircraft problem.

Hence the cautious attitude in defence development organizations is understandable. (I am not saying it's desirable or undesiable. It has a mixture of benefits and downsides.. IMO).


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## sancho

AADHAAR said:


> Now imagine... if you have had an example of LCA crashing because of lacking fly-by-wire system...



There would be no disccuission within the officials at all, because if we take *the same example*, we would talk about a fighter with more than 10000s flight hours and then possibly 4 crashes for what ever reasons. That is not bad, or unreliable at all. We have Su 30s in service for 10 years now, with high ammount of flying hours and 3 crashes, of which at least 1 was caused because of technical problem, but not a single official called it an unreliable fighter right? There was no outrage in the media when we ordered additional once or? Same goes for our Mirage and Mig 29s, or even the indigenous examples that I already gave.
You take the media speculations and sensational journalism way too serious, because the fact is, MoD and the forces keep going on with the developments, upgrades or even added more fighters without any concern about safty. LCA is no different here and even a crash (God forbid!) wouldn't change anything. 




AADHAAR said:


> And I say, people like yourself would have urged .... no point trying this... it's "rocket science" (for us). We just can't do it. Let's close the project. !! (*I take the clue from your views about Kaveri engine.. you do believe it's rocket science for Indians. Damn close the project. It's a failure, already*).



If that is all you got from my posts, I am doing something wrong. I never criticized Kaveri or LCA as a project, but the project planning and management of them!
Yes, developing a fighter engine from the scratch without any knowledge base is rocket science for Indians, just like it is for China, or like it was for other countries at this level, but we had to go for the development, we just messed up the way to go for it, although we had good opportunities! That's why Kaveri turned out to be a failure and why we now do, what we should had done from the start:

- de-link Kaveri development from LCA development by using proven foreign stopgap engines (GE 404 and 414 today)
- teaming up with an experience foreign company (Snecma possibly for the K10)
- building tech demo versions and the necessary test facilities / aircrafts (high altitude tests were done in Russia) 
- upgrading older LCA with fully developed and reliable Kaveri engine during later upgrades (GE 404IN20 => Kaveri K10)

As you can see, if we had done this in a more logical way and according to our capabilities, LCA AND Kaveri would be a success by now!

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## Gessler

@ Sancho

Right, we have sought Snecma assistance since the beginning.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> @ Sancho
> 
> Right, we have sought Snecma assistance since the beginning.



No, they offered us a co-development when Kaveri K9 for LCA didn't worked out, but MoD/IAF hoped that GTRE will get things done and that's why nothing was fixed yet.


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## cirr

gessler said:


> This proves your brain is just filled with CPC-fed nonsense.
> 
> J-10 crash, pilot dead
> ^^This one in 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ From here - J-10 2007 crash photos
> ^^This one from 2007
> 
> There go your multiple crashes, there were 2 more crashes other than this but china is trying its best
> to *hide them* lolz
> 
> China tries to hide J-10 crashes
> 
> Shameless peoples does not even have balls to face some humiliation. It seems you know only as far as
> CPC wnats you to! Are your employers hiding something from you?



All fake news&#65292;which have been proved wrong. Give me an official link not some internet bulletin SH1T.

Ok? Thanks. The plane that crashed HAS TO BE a J-10 and OFFICIALLY acknowledged!


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## BlueDot_in_Space

cirr said:


> All fake news&#65292;which have been proved wrong. Give me an official link not some internet bulletin SH1T.
> 
> Ok? Thanks. The plane that crashed HAS TO BE a J-10 and OFFICIALLY acknowledged!



Go and ask the family of Senior Col. Xie Fengliang how he died.


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## cirr

*After three months on ground, combat aircraft Tejas resumes test flight* 

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi Nov 27, 2012, 00:53 IST 

The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which has remained grounded for more than three months, finally resumed flight-testing last week. Seven flights of the Tejas have taken place since then without mishap.

*The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place because of the new pilot&#8217;s helmets. Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter&#8217;s canopy before it was blown off. Since that constituted a serious safety issue for pilots, flight-testing was halted since August.*(What kind of a joke is this? Indians are incapable of thinking ahead??)

The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) chief, V K Saraswat, confirmed to Business Standard that the problem had been resolved. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO agency that oversees the Tejas programme, has now provided a backup mechanism to blow off the canopy before the pilot&#8217;s head struck it.

&#8220;Yes, we had about three to three-and-a-half-months of gap (in flight testing). Now, that problem has been resolved. We have modified the Martin Baker ejection seats, making these more reliable and giving more confidence to our pilots. *With that behind us, I think we are roaring now*,&#8221; (Roaring back? His arse roaring more like it) said Saraswat.

For the Tejas&#8217; flight-test programme, which is already behind schedule, this three month delay has been a blow. The Initial Operation Clearance (IOC), which was scheduled for end-2010, and which the Indian Air Force (IAF) accorded only provisionally in January 2011, is now expected only around mid-2013.

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be *delayed by at least two years*(2016 is an optimistic estimate for FOC. As a matter of fact, there is a far higher possibility that the LCA may never see induction into the Indian Airforce). An upbeat Saraswat says the three-month delay gave ADA an opportunity to resolve several other problems, which needed to be done on the ground.

&#8220;*We have made use of this time by solving many of the problems which were part of the feedback that came from the flight test programme. I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),*&#8221; (lolo...fine excuses. This guy is good at nothing but finding excuses for total dereliction of duty) said Saraswat.

The Rs 14,047-crore LCA project involves building an air force version of the fighter in two models &#8212; Tejas Mark I and Tejas Mark II &#8212; as well as a naval version that will operate from aircraft carriers.

The IAF has already placed orders on Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for two squadrons (42 fighters) of the Tejas Mark I aircraft. Defence Minister AK Antony told Parliament on May 21, that the IAF would be delivered six squadrons (126 fighters) by the end of the 13th Plan, i.e. by 2022. While this was not specified, the next four Tejas squadrons will be of the Mark II fighter, which will field the more power General Electric F-414 engine. The government has allocated Rs 4,353 crore for developing the Mark II fighter.

Meanwhile Pakistan&#8217;s light fighter, the JF-17 Thunder, which was developed in partnership with China, has achieved combat status. Three squadrons of the JF-17 are already in service in the Pakistan Air Force, which expects to eventually operate some 12-13 squadrons of the fighter.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

cirr said:


> *After three months on ground, combat aircraft Tejas resumes test flight*
> 
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi Nov 27, 2012, 00:53 IST
> 
> The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which has remained grounded for more than three months, finally resumed flight-testing last week. Seven flights of the Tejas have taken place since then without mishap.
> 
> *The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place because of the new pilot&#8217;s helmets. Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter&#8217;s canopy before it was blown off. Since that constituted a serious safety issue for pilots, flight-testing was halted since August.*(What kind of a joke is this? Indians are incapable of thinking ahead??)
> 
> The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) chief, V K Saraswat, confirmed to Business Standard that the problem had been resolved. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO agency that oversees the Tejas programme, has now provided a backup mechanism to blow off the canopy before the pilot&#8217;s head struck it.
> 
> &#8220;Yes, we had about three to three-and-a-half-months of gap (in flight testing). Now, that problem has been resolved. We have modified the Martin Baker ejection seats, making these more reliable and giving more confidence to our pilots. *With that behind us, I think we are roaring now*,&#8221; (Roaring back? His arse roaring more like it) said Saraswat.
> 
> For the Tejas&#8217; flight-test programme, which is already behind schedule, this three month delay has been a blow. The Initial Operation Clearance (IOC), which was scheduled for end-2010, and which the Indian Air Force (IAF) accorded only provisionally in January 2011, is now expected only around mid-2013.
> 
> The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be *delayed by at least two years*(2016 is an optimistic estimate for FOC. As a matter of fact, there is a far higher possibility that the LCA may never see induction into the Indian Airforce). An upbeat Saraswat says the three-month delay gave ADA an opportunity to resolve several other problems, which needed to be done on the ground.
> 
> &#8220;*We have made use of this time by solving many of the problems which were part of the feedback that came from the flight test programme. I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),*&#8221; (lolo...fine excuses. This guy is good at nothing but finding excuses for total dereliction of duty) said Saraswat.
> 
> The Rs 14,047-crore LCA project involves building an air force version of the fighter in two models &#8212; Tejas Mark I and Tejas Mark II &#8212; as well as a naval version that will operate from aircraft carriers.
> 
> The IAF has already placed orders on Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for two squadrons (42 fighters) of the Tejas Mark I aircraft. Defence Minister AK Antony told Parliament on May 21, that the IAF would be delivered six squadrons (126 fighters) by the end of the 13th Plan, i.e. by 2022. While this was not specified, the next four Tejas squadrons will be of the Mark II fighter, which will field the more power General Electric F-414 engine. The government has allocated Rs 4,353 crore for developing the Mark II fighter.
> 
> Meanwhile Pakistan&#8217;s light fighter, the JF-17 Thunder, which was developed in partnership with China, has achieved combat status. Three squadrons of the JF-17 are already in service in the Pakistan Air Force, which expects to eventually operate some 12-13 squadrons of the fighter.



New Helmets? any guesses why new helmets? What was so special that couldnt have been done with old helmets?


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## farhan_9909

foc in 2016?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

farhan_9909 said:


> foc in 2016?



tentative: IOC2 by 2013, FOC by 2015

Needs to be done: A2A trials, Wake penetration tests, Spin tests and AOA tests.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

From the pic it is clear that helmet extends beyond the MB seat. I think DASH is in use for a long time, then why did they choose last three months to make the necessary changes? May be they are preparing for high risk high AOA and spin tests

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## Anony

Yesterday, I was going through the specifications and proposed changes that will be there in tejas mk2. The developments and technology those will be there on tejas mk2 really will make it a true 4.5 gen fighter. But what I was really worried was about the timeline. 2018 proposed date for induction, we can easily take that to 2020 by going to the DRDO records.
The point is by 2020,China will be close to complete j-31 and most probably by 2025,Pakistan will start inducting j-31 which is a 5th gen fighter aircraft. Don't you all think though Tejas mk2 being a good fighter aircraft, will not have it's share of air dominance at that point of time.


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## Black Widow

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> From the pic it is clear that helmet extends beyond the MB seat. I think DASH is in use for a long time, then why did they choose last three months to make the necessary changes? May be they are preparing for high risk high AOA and spin tests






Sound logical.. ...


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## Raje amar

Anony said:


> Yesterday, I was going through the specifications and proposed changes that will be there in tejas mk2. The developments and technology those will be there on tejas mk2 really will make it a true 4.5 gen fighter. But what I was really worried was about the timeline. 2018 proposed date for induction, we can easily take that to 2020 by going to the DRDO records.
> The point is by 2020,China will be close to complete j-31 and most probably by 2025,Pakistan will start inducting j-31 which is a 5th gen fighter aircraft. Don't you all think though Tejas mk2 being a good fighter aircraft, will not have it's share of air dominance at that point of time.



as i see it you have made a little confusion in the role of the fighters in the securty of any nation.

though US is the first to develop 5th gen fighters did it operate 100% 5th gen fighter? the ans is a bg NO.
you need to have a mix of fighters with different roles.
way i see it LCA s designed for point defence & to protect air space of INdia over Indan skyes.
by 2025 Inda will operate a mix of jets say
PAK FA for air domiance.
AMCA as multirole.
Rafale as multirole.
LCA Mk2 as pointe defence. 

with the configeration of LCA Mk2 i am confident it will serve India till 2040 by when they will be replaced by AURA.


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## Gessler

cirr said:


> All fake news&#65292;which have been proved wrong. Give me an official link not some internet bulletin SH1T.
> 
> Ok? Thanks. The plane that crashed HAS TO BE a J-10 and OFFICIALLY acknowledged!



Here you go with your sorry a$$ -

Chinese official website confirms death of pilot in J-10 crash

^^ OFFICIAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT MAN, THAT IS!


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> From the pic it is clear that helmet extends beyond the MB seat. I think DASH is in use for a long time, then why did they choose last three months to make the necessary changes? May be they are preparing for high risk high AOA and spin tests



Ajai Shukla is not the best source wrt the IAF, he claimed many things that never came true.




Anony said:


> Don't you all think though Tejas mk2 being a good fighter aircraft, will not have it's share of air dominance at that point of time.



It never was aimed to fight stealth fighters, but other 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, like JF 17, J10, or J11 and these will be available in our region and by that time in high numbers too.
J20 & J31 / Pak Fa & AMCA
J11 / MKI
J10 / Rafale
JF 17 / LCA
F16 / Mig 29 & Mirage 2000


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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Ajai Shukla is not the best source wrt the IAF, he claimed many things that never came true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never was aimed to fight stealth fighters, but other 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, like JF 17, J10, or J11 and these will be available in our region and by that time in high numbers too.
> J20 & J31 / Pak Fa & AMCA
> J11 / MKI
> J10 / Rafale
> JF 17 / LCA
> F16 / Mig 29 & Mirage 2000



I think LCA Mk-2 can handle both J-10A/B and JF-17 Blocks-1/2.

And I also think Mk-2 LCA will be a better match for F-16C than MiG-29UPG.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> I think LCA Mk-2 can handle both J-10A/B and JF-17 Blocks-1/2.
> 
> And I also think Mk-2 LCA will be a better match for F-16C than MiG-29UPG.



JF 17 Block 2, J10B and LCA MK2 are meant to be a match or even better than F16 Block 50/52 and Mig 29UPG, so that shouldn't be surprising.

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## Anony

sancho said:


> Ajai Shukla is not the best source wrt the IAF, he claimed many things that never came true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never was aimed to fight stealth fighters, but other 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, like JF 17, J10, or J11 and these will be available in our region and by that time in high numbers too.
> J20 & J31 / Pak Fa & AMCA
> J11 / MKI
> J10 / Rafale
> JF 17 / LCA
> F16 / Mig 29 & Mirage 2000




Dude you have taken my areas of concerned too lightly or probably I should have put it in better way.

As LCA will be used for air defence against any enemy fighter which violates Indian air and we never know whether those will be JF-17,J-10 or F-16 which LCA will easily match or J-31 which will be way harder to detect by the radars on LCA.

And also that fighters are based on certain air bases, we could probably have one multi-role fighter squadron with one air defence fighter squadron on any airbase. Thus it will be the responsibility of LCA to successfully intercept the enemy fighter and if it fails then other fighters on that airbase will also become vulnerable.

I am not giving any more details with the hope that this time I probably have made it clear what my concern is.


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## sancho

Anony said:


> And also that fighters are based on certain air bases, we could probably have one multi-role fighter squadron with one air defence fighter squadron on any airbase. Thus it will be the responsibility of LCA to successfully intercept the enemy fighter and if it fails then other fighters on that airbase will also become vulnerable.



First of all, all mentioned IAF fighters are multi role fighters and will be used for air defence roles, not only LCA, so there will be several types of fighters available anyway.
Secondly, most 4th to 4.5 gen fighters won't have a chance against stealth fighters, because of the BVR disadvantage, not only LCA.
Again, by the time there will be enough stealth fighters available and placed against us, we will have our own as well, so it will be their prime role to counter enemy fighters in first place. LCA is just the low end fighter of IAF, meant to support in air defence as well as CAS roles. And it will be capable enough to face it's contemporaries, that's where the aim is and not facing J20 or so.


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## Dash

Anony said:


> Dude you have taken my areas of concerned too lightly or probably I should have put it in better way.
> 
> As LCA will be used for air defence against any enemy fighter which violates Indian air and we never know whether those will be JF-17,J-10 or F-16 which LCA will easily match or J-31 which will be way harder to detect by the radars on LCA.
> 
> And also that fighters are based on certain air bases, we could probably have one multi-role fighter squadron with one air defence fighter squadron on any airbase. Thus it will be the responsibility of LCA to successfully intercept the enemy fighter and if it fails then other fighters on that airbase will also become vulnerable.
> 
> I am not giving any more details with the hope that this time I probably have made it clear what my concern is.



there is a reason as to why all AFs keep a mix of high and low end fighters....its not economically possible for an AF to keep all 5th gen fighters...unless ur enemy is completely made of 5th gen. Lca is a good interceptor, but in case of war it will not be used for intercepting the incoming 5th gen fighters,a similar fighter + ur SAM will be used....these fighters are basicaly for one purpose..once the air superiority is achieved you need these to carry out bombing with little escort at less cost, support friendly troops at the ground.

So don't worry, an enemy fighter getting aggressive will first meet ur SAMs and then ur jets...

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## trident2010

*India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU*








The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, which has remained grounded for more than three months, finally resumed flight-testing last week. 

Seven flights of the Tejas have taken place since then without mishap.

The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place because of the new pilot's helmets. 

Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter's canopy before it was blown off. Since that constituted a serious safety issue for pilots, flight-testing was halted since August.

Defence Research and Development Organisation chief V K Saraswat confirmed to Business Standard that the problem had been resolved. 


India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU - Rediff.com News


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## Abingdonboy

trident2010 said:


> *India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, which has remained grounded for more than three months, finally resumed flight-testing last week.
> 
> Seven flights of the Tejas have taken place since then without mishap.
> 
> The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place because of the new pilot's helmets.
> 
> Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter's canopy before it was blown off. Since that constituted a serious safety issue for pilots, flight-testing was halted since August.
> 
> Defence Research and Development Organisation chief V K Saraswat confirmed to Business Standard that the problem had been resolved.
> 
> 
> India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU - Rediff.com News


Any idea what measures they took?
@sancho


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## Gessler

So this means we must have crossed 1950 flights by now.


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## Black Widow

gessler said:


> So this means we must have crossed 1950 flights by now.




Where is the gentelman who use to update Each test flight of LCA??? Common mate, we are missing you. 7 test flight took recently and there is no update on PDF..


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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


From


LCA-Tejas has completed 1944 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Nov-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-106,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


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## Gessler

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)
> 
> 
> From
> 
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1944 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-106,LSP7-5,NP1-4)



Of all LCAs, the PV-3 has flown the most - 348 flights

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## SamantK

Change page post...

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## Gessler

samantk said:


> Change page post...



??????????


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## SamantK

gessler said:


> ??????????


 I could not see the last page, hence the jugaad. Made famous by @vsdoc

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## Gessler

samantk said:


> I could not see the last page, hence the jugaad. Made famous by @vsdoc



Oh I see...

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Any idea what measures they took?
> @sancho



Donno, especially not sure which new helmets they are talking about.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Donno, especially not sure which new helmets they are talking about.



I think they are reffering to the TOPSIGHT HMDS. But these have been in use with the LCA for years so it seems odd that only recently did they notice the issue or take measures to correct it.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I think they are reffering to the TOPSIGHT HMDS. But these have been in use with the LCA for years so it seems odd that only recently did they notice the issue or take measures to correct it.



No, Topsight was never used with LCA, but the Israeli Dash helmet, but IF the report is true, this new helmet could be the Topsight, or better it's Indian version build by Samtel.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> No, Topsight was never used with LCA, but the Israeli Dash helmet, but IF the report is true, this new helmet could be the Topsight, or better it's Indian version build by Samtel.


Sorry, I meant DASH. Yeah-possilby the IAF/IN want commanlity so TOPSIGHT has been integrated, would make sense otherwise the rest of the IN/IAF fleet will be using the TOPSIGHT whilst the LCA is the only one using the DASH.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sorry, I meant DASH. Yeah-possilby the IAF/IN want commanlity so TOPSIGHT has been integrated, would make sense otherwise the rest of the IN/IAF fleet will be using the TOPSIGHT whilst the LCA is the only one using the DASH.



Indeed, but it would be surprising and even if and there would be an issue with the Topsight, why would there be a need to ground the whole LCA fleet from testing, when the rest still could have used the Dash helmets. Sadly most of our defence bloggers are not really reliable sources.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Indeed, but it would be surprising and even if and there would be an issue with the Topsight, why would there be a need to ground the whole LCA from testing, when the rest still could have used the Dash helmets. Sadly most of our defence bloggers are not really reliable sources.


It's true- grounding an entire fleet for a helmet issue seems like baloney even if it was problems with the DASH they could simply have reverted back to the basic helmet for a short period of time- no need fr grounding at all.s

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## arp2041

@sancho, @Abingdonboy, @gessler, @anyone  

Has Tejas achieved mid-air refuelling capability??? If not, than when it will be achieved???

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## IndoUS

arp2041 said:


> @sancho, @Abingdonboy, @gessler, @anyone
> 
> Has Tejas achieved mid-air refuelling capability??? If not, than when it will be achieved???



Not yet, not sure of the LCA MK1 but the MKII will have the mid air refueling ability. I think right now HAL is just trying to get the aircraft out and in the hands of the IAF. Plus the main role would be point defense in Indian airspace so maybe they didn't think that it would need the capability.

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## Abingdonboy

arp2041 said:


> @sancho, @Abingdonboy, @gessler, @anyone
> 
> Has Tejas achieved mid-air refuelling capability??? If not, than when it will be achieved???



Not to date. The LCA MK.1 won't come with a refueling probe although mock-ups have been shown of such. The LCA MK.2 will came with a fixed refeuling probe which most likely will be retro fitted onto the MK.1s at a later date. So expect ~2015 for such capability to be demonstrated on the LCA platform.

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## Abingdonboy

A mock up of a refueling probe from some time back:







Gives an idea of what it may look like on Mk.2. Shame they can't mount a retractble probe, on the LCA the fixed probe just looks ugle. It looks good on the Rafale and M2K but not on the LCA-oh well.

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## trident2010

Abingdonboy said:


> It looks good on the Rafale and M2K but not on the LCA-oh well.



It looks ugly on Rafale also.

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## kurup

Another image of testing refueling probe in Tejas . Aircraft looks like some LSP .

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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> A mock up of a refueling probe from some time back:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gives an idea of what it may look like on Mk.2. Shame they can't mount a retractble probe, on the LCA the fixed probe just looks ugle. It looks good on the Rafale and M2K but not on the LCA-oh well.



Another such picture -

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## ejaz007

*Contracts and Key Events*


*Aug.  Nov. 2012:*

Testing halted. The Tejas encounters a DASH of trouble, as India discovers that the top of the pilots DASH integrated helmet display can end up above the top of the Martin-Baker ejection seat. Thats a serious problem, because it means the helmet could hit the canopy as the seat rockets out of the cockpit, killing the pilot. India had to halt testing for 3 1/2 months before the problem was fixed. Their response was to modify the seat, and to provide a backup mechanism that they calculate will blow the canopy off before the pilots head can hit it. They had better be right. 

DRDO chief V. K. Saraswat has confirmed to Indias Business Standard that the fixes are done, adding that ADA used the down time to make other modifications as a result of flight test feedback. Even so, a string of setbacks has shifted Tejas Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) from a re-baselined end-2010 to mid-2013  if nothing else goes seriously wrong. Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for combat operations was scheduled for end-2012, and now looks unlikely until 2014-2015. 

To the west, Pakistan has already inducted 3 squadrons of its comparable JF-17 fighters, whose joint development with China began 16 years after Tejas. Indias Business Standard.


LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter - With Foreign Help

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## sancho

sancho said:


> Indeed, but it would be surprising and even if and there would be an issue with the Topsight, why would there be a need to ground the whole LCA fleet from testing, when the rest still could have used the Dash helmets. Sadly most of our defence bloggers are not really reliable sources.



Gessler just posted this pic, showing 2 different helmets, again a prove that a grounding was not needed like the media claims:

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Gessler just posted this pic, showing 2 different helmets, again a prove that a grounding was not needed like the media claims:



Nothing that Indian media says can be trusted nowadays - they just dream up a possible problem
and write it down.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

*LCA Radome*

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## rockstarIN

LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-77,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)

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## Sergi

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-77,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-5,NP1-4)
> 
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


Good job but where is Sudhir sir ???
And you forget to highlight the planes which made the fights. ( LSP3 LSP5 )

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## Gessler

rockstar said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-77*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-109*,LSP7-5,NP1-4)
> 
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)



2 flights in 1 day


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## BlueDot_in_Space

LSP3 & LSP5 with Radars flying alot after the modifications. Hope they start doing BVR tests.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*LCA wind tunnel model*







*LCA wind tunnel store drop test configuration*






*Mapping of the entire surface
pressure field on the LCA model at transonic speeds*






*Dye flow visualizations in water tunnel to understand tip vortices on LCA
wings and the effect of leading edge devices on
vortex breakdown*

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## mylovepakistan

*Rs 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets*

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has allocated an additional Rs 1,500 crore to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, boosting its projected Rs 14,047 crore budget. The additional amount will be spent on a production line for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd ( HAL) to build 20 fighters that Indian Air Force (IAF) has ordered for its first Tejas squadron. The IAF has also promised another order for 20 more Tejas for its second squadron. Once the improved Mark II Tejas is developed, the IAF will field 6-7 Tejas squadrons (120-140 fighters).

This need for additional money arises from the inability of HAL, a public sector aerospace monopoly, to establish a production line that can build at least eight Tejas fighters a year. The production line that HAL set up two years ago on the priceless real estate that it holds in the heart of Bangalore has not yet produced a single Tejas fighter.


Briefing Business Standard the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), P Subramanyam, who runs the LCA programme, explains that nobody realised that setting up a production line was a technology by itself. So far, ADA and HAL have built only prototypes and limited-series Tejas aircraft, producing individual parts one-by-one like a tailor making a suit. When HAL graduated to a standardised production line, it encountered serious difficulties.
ADA and HAL have realised that creating a production line needs major effort That realisation has come, says Subramanyam.

So serious are the difficulties that ADA and HAL approached foreign aircraft manufacturers last year  including Eurofighter GmbH, which builds the Typhoon. The proposal to appoint a foreign consultant for the Tejas production line remains alive in the MoD.

Senior IAF officers express frustration that HAL has failed to set up a Tejas assembly line, though its primary activity for the preceding decades has been to build foreign aircraft on an assembly line under licence.

Air Marshal Pranab K Barbora, who retired as the IAF vice-chief two years ago, summarises the Air Forces viewpoint: HALs assembly line expertise is outdated by at least three decades. They have done nothing to upgrade their technology. Setting up a modern assembly line for the Tejas is far beyond HALs capabilities.

Barbora says this is why the IAF lobbied hard to post a serving air marshal as HAL chief. Instead, the MoD appointed RK Tyagi, who has no experience in aeronautical development or manufacture.

Contacted repeatedly for comments, Tyagi did not respond to the calls.

ADA is defending HAL, with Subramanyam insisting that HAL would build the first 20 Tejas within two-and-a-half to three years. By then the fighter would have obtained final operational clearance (FOC) in its flight-testing programme and production can begin of the next 20 Tejas (which must be built to FOC standards).

This, says Subramanyam, will take another two-and-a-half years, i.e., be completed in 2018. By then, the Tejas Mark II will be tested and ready, and can enter series production.

What the ADA chief does not explain is: How will HAL, which cannot yet build even two Tejas fighters per year, build 20 fighters over the next three years?

The annual general meeting on Friday of ADA (which is a registered society under the MoD) was also clouded by delays in flight-testing, which Business Standard has reported, will delay the initial operational clearance ( IOC) of the Tejas until mid-2013 at the earliest.

For the IAF, which contemplates dangerously depleted squadron numbers, the big question is: When will the first two Tejas squadrons become operational?

Going by the lack of energy in HAL  which is struggling to build the last two limited series fighters and the first two series production Tejas  the IAF might have a longer wait than it is comfortable with.

Rs 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets

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## sancho

mylovepakistan said:


> *Rs 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets*



Good old Ajai Shukla again, with no idea about the aero field itself and often a very biased field of view. The claims of the article are more than questionable. Why would HAL be able to set up production lines for Mig 21, Jaguar, MKI, Do 228, or even Trainer aircrafts, but not for LCA?
IF that would be true, does he really think MoD wouldn't know it and would divert more and more productions to them (additional 42 x MKIs, 108 x Rafales, FGFA, IJT, HTT 40...)?
Also, if the aim would be to set up a modern production line, why would HAL go to ask the Eurofighter consortium, when they just need to ask one of the Indian privat companies like TATA? They even have a JV with TATA to jointly produce parts for their developments, so all this doesn't really make sense to me.

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## SamantK

Father of India's LCA..


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> Gessler just posted this pic, showing 2 different helmets, again a prove that a grounding was not needed like the media claims:





Sancho, isn't Trainer version canopy has more head clearance than other version???


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## kaykay

In Kaveri engine development project..

1. Successful completion of Official Altitude Testing (OAT) has been achieved.

2.Demonstration of First Block of flight of Kaveri Engine in Flying Test Bed (FTB) achieved

Press Information Bureau English Releases

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## sudhir007

Sergi said:


> Good job but where is Sudhir sir ???
> And you forget to highlight the planes which made the fights. ( LSP3 LSP5 )


Sorry for late
Flight update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-77,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-5,NP1-4)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-78*,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,*LSP7-6*,NP1-4)

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Sancho, isn't Trainer version canopy has more head clearance than other version???




Of course:







But the point was, that there was no need to ground LCA, only because it has some issues with a new HMS as reported, since other helmets were available too.


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## SamantK

ursoul said:


> well tejassssssss
> 
> well tejassssssss



What is stopping you to express yourself fully?


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## SamantK

ursoul said:


> i work in drdo


Oh, and you are living in Iran?

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## SamantK

ursoul said:


> i guess i just choose flag because i support them how does it mean that i live in iran




Just confusion, dil pe mat le.. 
@Aeronaut, can you please delete this banter!


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## Kompromat

ursoul said:


> i guess i just choose flag because i support them how does it mean that i live in iran



You must display your real flags.


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## SQ8

samantk said:


> What is stopping you to express yourself fully?




Im not sure why either.. Considering his claim of working for DRDO would put him in the DARE division in bangalore.
But making pointless statements will get them deleted, DRDO or RAW.

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## SamantK

Oscar said:


> Im not sure why either.. Considering his claim of working for DRDO *would put him in the DARE* division in bangalore.
> But making pointless statements will get them deleted, DRDO or RAW.



Is he that stupid to use Machines in DRDO for forum posting?


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## SQ8

samantk said:


> Is he that stupid to use Machines in DRDO for forum posting?



Well, I would use the machine back home to post when I worked at a similar establishment. But there is less paranoia as people know the level of acceptable talk that one can make.

its when you go making vague statements trying to look all top secret.. when things get suspicious.
Because nobody with That level of clearance will ever register as that raises questions in any case.. or someone who either has no actual connection with DRDO or works in the admin department(and really knows as much as you do) would make such posts.

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## arp2041

ADA Wants You To Design A New Radome For The LCA Tejas - AA Me, IN

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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> ADA Wants You To Design A New Radome For The LCA Tejas - AA Me, IN



Strange, but interesting and at least we have a confirmation now for the diameter of LCAs radar (640mm).


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## MST

sancho said:


> Strange, but interesting and at least we have a confirmation now for the diameter of LCAs radar (640mm).


 @sancho
How does it compare with other aircrafts? And how many T/R modules of the AESA can we fit in this size of radome? And what may be the range of such a radar? Can we make any of these approximations?

thanks in advance.


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## sancho

MST said:


> @sancho
> How does it compare with other aircrafts? And how many T/R modules of the AESA can we fit in this size of radome? And what may be the range of such a radar? Can we make any of these approximations?
> 
> thanks in advance.



Difficult to say and would be mainly speculation which I don't want to add here. For such a small fighter it is deninitely a pretty big radar though. For example, the Zhuk ME radar is officially given by Phazotron with 624mm, the first Zhuk AE had even only 575mm.

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## sudhir007

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-78,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

To
LCA-Tejas has completed 1953 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-81*,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

To

LCA-Tejas has completed 1955 Test Flights Successfully. (13-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,*LSP5-110*,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

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## subincb

sudhir007 said:


> From
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-78,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)
> 
> To
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1953 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-81*,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)
> 
> To
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1955 Test Flights Successfully. (13-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,*LSP5-110*,LSP7-6,NP1-4)



Is it me very bad with math or something wrong with numbers above. Lsp5 flew 1 sortie n total flights jumped from 1953 to 1955. 12th dec is wrong


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## DacterSaab

^^ that'll b 1954 flights


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## Sergi

subincb said:


> Is it me very bad with math or something wrong with numbers above. Lsp5 flew 1 sortie n total flights jumped from 1953 to 1955. 12th dec is wrong



Mistake @12 Dec. it sould have been 1951+3 = 1954. Don't worry Sudhir sir will clear that

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## bloo

sancho said:


> Of course:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the point was, that there was no need to ground LCA, only because it has some issues with a new HMS as reported, since other helmets were available too.




Dash HMD


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## palash_kol

There is no sign of AA target practice new for LCA!!!

Only news is that R73 is integrated.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

LCA-Tejas has completed *1955* Test Flights Successfully. (13-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-81*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-110*,LSP7-6,NP1-4)




LCA-Tejas has completed *1957* Test Flights Successfully. (15-Dec-2012).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-82*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-111*,LSP7-6,NP1-4)


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## my2cents

what kind of maintenance is needed for LCA?? Is it a low maintenance bird in terms of number of hours required to make it flight ready after every sortie???


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## Sergi

my2cents said:


> what kind of maintenance is needed for LCA?? Is it a low maintenance bird in terms of number of hours required to make it flight ready after every sortie???



It would be overall low cost of Operationd & maintaince. But it's too early to state what it would be. Let it get in first. Rest of the info will follow it

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## rockstarIN

Sergi said:


> It would be overall low cost of Operationd & maintaince. But it's too early to state what it would be. Let it get in first. Rest of the info will follow it



I want the SP series jets in IAF hands for flight trails hopefully the next jet will roll out soon from the production line and will be handed over to IAF for user trails along with LSP 7. Then the flying hours will shoot up and can see the maintenance issues if any.

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## sudhir007

subincb said:


> Is it me very bad with math or something wrong with numbers above. Lsp5 flew 1 sortie n total flights jumped from 1953 to 1955. 12th dec is wrong


There is typo error in fight between (07-Dec-2012) and (12-Dec-2012) total 3 flight
LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012)
LCA-Tejas has completed *1954*Test Flights Successfully. (12-Dec-2012)

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1957 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-82,LSP4-56,LSP5-111,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1959 Test Flights Successfully. (18-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-83*,LSP4-56,LSP5-111,*LSP7-7*,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1960 Test Flights Successfully. (19-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,*LSP5-112*,LSP7-7,NP1-4)

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## BlueDot_in_Space

some details from old news 2011 about test of radar and other sensors during night flights.

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## The A-5

@sudhir007

Good work, sir

How many flights were completed as of 23 december? (today).

Im eargerly waiting for the 2,000th flight - it'll most probably come in the LiveWire-2013 air exercise.


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## Black Widow

LSP 8 show some activity ... Please add that news here...

Summary: LSP 8 , the last of LSP series did taxi trial on 12 dec 2012, This plane will be given to IAF for evaluation, Based on IOC, the 40 LCA MK I will be manufactured,.... SP1 to SP40

In mean time, LSPs will be used as testbed for LCA MK II, The PVs will be used for Testing AW suits and Kaveri Engine, 

Sancho and Blue , give some comments please....

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## SamantK

Black Widow said:


> LSP 8 show some activity ... Please add that news here...
> 
> Summary: LSP 8 , the last of LSP series did taxi trial on 12 dec 2012, This plane will be given to IAF for evaluation, Based on IOC, the 40 LCA MK I will be manufactured,.... SP1 to SP40
> 
> In mean time, LSPs will be used as testbed for LCA MK II, The PVs will be used for Testing AW suits and Kaveri Engine,
> 
> Sancho and Blue , give some comments please....



on another thread, Engine Ground Run was conducted for LSP 8


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Black Widow said:


> LSP 8 show some activity ... Please add that news here...
> 
> Summary: LSP 8 , the last of LSP series did taxi trial on 12 dec 2012, This plane will be given to IAF for evaluation, Based on IOC, the 40 LCA MK I will be manufactured,.... SP1 to SP40
> 
> In mean time, LSPs will be used as testbed for LCA MK II, The PVs will be used for Testing AW suits and Kaveri Engine,
> 
> Sancho and Blue , give some comments please....



just to add, both LSP 7 and 8 will be for user evaluation, these planes are very close to final version. LSP 6 will be used for high alfa test, spin recovery tests and RCS optimisation. I also hope that ADA collaborates with ISRO and start testing Flush air data systems (FADS) on one of the PVs to gain expertise to allow its smooth integration in AMCA. FADS has been successfully developed by ISRO that is also testing it for the first time on RLV-TD. FADS will allow better aerodynamics parameter estimation and also necessary for stealth.


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## rockstarIN

Actually LSP7 & 8 to be handed over to IAF for user trails.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1960 Test Flights Successfully. (19-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,LSP5-112,LSP7-7,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1963 Test Flights Successfully. (21-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-84*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-113*,*LSP7-8*,NP1-4)

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## indiatester

sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1960 Test Flights Successfully. (19-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,LSP5-112,LSP7-7,NP1-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1963 Test Flights Successfully. (21-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-84*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-113*,*LSP7-8*,NP1-4)



I do have one question though. Why are the other planes not being used/tested. I mean the more devices under test, the more feedback you get to have a really stable platform.


----------



## kurup

sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1960 Test Flights Successfully. (19-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,LSP5-112,LSP7-7,NP1-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1963 Test Flights Successfully. (21-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-84*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-113*,*LSP7-8*,NP1-4)



Where is LSP-6 ??


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## whitefox011

cross posting from military pic thread thx to koovie for such an awesome pic

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## The A-5

Tejas pilot wearing a DASH Mk-2 HMDS system -

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## rockstarIN

kurup said:


> Where is LSP-6 ??



kept for AoA tests or/and using for Electronics warfare trails.



sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1960 Test Flights Successfully. (19-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,LSP5-112,LSP7-7,NP1-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 1963 Test Flights Successfully. (21-Dec-2012).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-84*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-113*,*LSP7-8*,NP1-4)



It seems LSP 7 is ready, once LSP8 too ready, IAF can get it for user trails. should be in march 13.

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## SamantK

* Tejas LSP-8 finally ready for flightBy SP's Special Correspondent*

December 29, 2012:*After months of delays that have afflicted the programme at large, the crucial LSP-8 of HAL's Tejas programme is ready for flight by early next year. The LSP-8, a fully configured version of the Tejas and intended to user trials by the Indian Air Force (IAF), underwent an initial engine ground run on December 12, and will continue with a series of ground tests by the National Flight Test Centre before being cleared for flight. The LSP-7 (which flew in March this year) and the LSP-8 are the two airframes that will be handed over to the IAF for user evaluation trials (UET) by sometime next year, once initial operational clearance II (IOC-2) is achieved in all respects.The Tejas programme has floundered for months without a new airframe getting into the air and final operational clearance is only slated for end 2014, after which squadron service with the IAF at Sulur in Tamil Nadu will commence. The LCA Navy programme is also stalled as the landing gear is undergoing a re-design to strengthen it.

http://www.spsnavalforces.net/exclusive/?id=70&h=LCA-Tejas-LSP-8-finally-ready-for-flight

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## Abingdonboy

The A-5 said:


> Tejas pilot wearing a DASH Mk-2 HMDS system -


I don't believe this is a HMDS mate!

Looks like a regular flight helmet!

This is an eg of a DASH HMDS:






Here is a pic of the DASH HMDS being used by the LCA test team:

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## kurup

rockstar said:


> kept for AoA tests or/and using for Electronics warfare trails.



So it has not flown untill now .


----------



## faithfulguy

samantk said:


> * Tejas LSP-8 finally ready for flightBy SP's Special Correspondent*
> 
> December 29, 2012:*After months of delays that have afflicted the programme at large, the crucial LSP-8 of HAL's Tejas programme is ready for flight by early next year. The LSP-8, a fully configured version of the Tejas and intended to user trials by the Indian Air Force (IAF), underwent an initial engine ground run on December 12, and will continue with a series of ground tests by the National Flight Test Centre before being cleared for flight. The LSP-7 (which flew in March this year) and the LSP-8 are the two airframes that will be handed over to the IAF for user evaluation trials (UET) by sometime next year, once initial operational clearance II (IOC-2) is achieved in all respects.The Tejas programme has floundered for months without a new airframe getting into the air and final operational clearance is only slated for end 2014, after which squadron service with the IAF at Sulur in Tamil Nadu will commence. The LCA Navy programme is also stalled as the landing gear is undergoing a re-design to strengthen it.
> 
> LCA Tejas LSP 8 finally ready for flight - SP's Naval Forces



Thanks for explaining the reason behind another LCA delay


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## rockstarIN

kurup said:


> So it has not flown untill now .



No idea, without flying, how will they test AoA & ACM? may be they are keeping the flight details of this jet as secret.


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## zaxcolix

faithfulguy said:


> Thanks for explaining the reason behind another LCA delay



......50 cents propaganda army strike again  .........


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## kurup

rockstar said:


> No idea, without flying, how will they test AoA & ACM? may be they are keeping the flight details of this jet as secret.



AoA - Angle of Attack ....what is ACM ??

If they are keeping it a secret , then great.

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## INDIAISM

kurup said:


> AoA - Angle of Attack ....what is ACM ??
> 
> If they are keeping it a secret , then great.



I think he means ECM...Electronic counter measures...

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## INDIAISM

*Navy eager for Tejas ordering eight naval fighters*

Ajai Shukla / Bangalore Dec 12, 2012, 00:52 IST

So far - much to its disappointment - only one 
naval light combat aircraft has been built by the Aeronautical Development Agency
Earlier this year, the then naval chief, Admiral Nirmal Verma , regretted the delay in building the naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).* Last week, the current naval chief, Admiral D K Joshi , declared the navy wanted theTejas more urgently than any fighter aircraft from abroad.
- DRDO looks beyond HAL for Tejas production Following words with action, the navy will shortly issue a request for proposals to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to build eight naval Tejas fighters, a mix of twin-seat trainers and single-seat fighters, worth some Rs 1,000 crore. Both the ministry of defence and Cabinet. Committee on Security have cleared the purchase. HAL will respond with a quotation, a price will be negotiated, and the building of the aircraft would commence next year.*
So far &#8212; much to the navy&#8217;s disappointment &#8212; only one naval LCA has been built by the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA, which oversees the Rs 3,650-crore naval LCA programme and the Rs 10,397-crore programme to develop a fighter for the Indian Air Force. A second naval Tejas is currently under construction. ADA has briefed Business Standard a total of five naval Tejas prototypes will be built in the coming days, which ADA will use in the demanding flight test programme for certifying for operations off the flight deck of an aircraft carrier.
The eight fighters now being ordered by the navy &#8212; which HAL will build in what is called limited series production, or LSP &#8212; will be used to train naval pilots who would eventually fly the Tejas from the aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant , which Cochin Shipyard would build by 2015, and from a second indigenous aircraft carrier that will follow the Vikrant.
Until these vessels are ready for flight deck operations, naval pilots will train at a new Shore-Based Test Facility ( SBTF ) in Goa, which replicates the dimensions of an aircraft carrier deck, including the arrestor wires that bring the aircraft to a halt in just 90 metres. The SBTF also has the optical landing system that aircraft carriers have, which allows a pilot to &#8220;aim&#8221; his fighter at the arrestor wire on the carrier deck. Only after extensive testing at the SBTF will the Naval LCA attempt to land and take off from an actual aircraft carrier.
ADA confirms the Goa facility is close to completion. &#8220;We want the SBTF to be a national facility that would be available for training (naval pilots) on a wide range of aircraft. So it is built to be used by the naval LCA as well as by the MiG-29K,&#8221; says Commodore CD Balaji, who directs the Naval LCA project at ADA.
The navy has bought 45 naval MiG-29K fighters, which will operate from the INS Vikramaditya (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov), which Russia will deliver only next year, after unexpected delays during trials recently. The MiG-29K will also fly from the indigenous INS Vikrant, along with the naval Tejas.*
Naval aviators can train on the Tejas Mark I, which is powered by the General Electric F-404INengine. But only Tejas Mark II fighters, powered by the more powerful F-414 engine, can take off from aircraft carriers. The F-414&#8217;s additional power is essential for getting the fighters airborne in a runway length of just 200 metres, which is all that an aircraft carrier offers. During a visit to ADA last week, Business Standard was briefed on the naval LCA. In 2003, when development of the naval variant began, ADA believed that the air force version could simply be converted into a naval fighter by strengthening the landing gear, and engineeringan arrestor hooks and additional control surfaces. (A naval fighter must undergo far greater impacts while landing on an aircraft carrier deck, in what is often described as a &#8220;controlled crash.&#8221
&#8220;In the paper design it looked feasible, similar towhat Eurofighter proposed for a navalised Typhoon; or what Gripen proposed for the Sea Gripen. But when we started the detailed design and the actual build&#8230; we realised the benefits of what Dassault had done with the Rafale. They designed and built the naval variant first, the Rafale Marine. The air force Rafale is just a subset of Rafale Marine. That is the easiest path,&#8221; says Balaji ruefully.*
Instead ADA, in what has been a valuable learning experience, has arduously converted the air force Tejas into a naval version.
That is the same path as RAC MiG took in building the MiG-29K naval fighter from the air force version of the MiG-29.
Now the naval Tejas must demonstrate that it can land and take off from an aircraft carrier. It has already proved this in extensive computer simulation done by a team of scientists from the National Aerospace Laboratory. Next, the fighter will perform take offs and landings in realistic distances at the SBTF. ADA says it will demonstrate a take off by mid-2013 and a landing by end-2013. Only after that will the hazardous operation be performed on an aircraft carrier at sea..



> I just hope they have learned from their mistake and are going for Naval version of AMCA before its Airforce version...


..

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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1963 Test Flights Successfully. (21-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-84,LSP4-56,LSP5-113,LSP7-8,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1964 Test Flights Successfully. (02-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-84,LSP4-56,LSP5-113,*LSP7-9*,NP1-4)

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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 1964 Test Flights Successfully. (02-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-84,LSP4-56,LSP5-113,LSP7-9,NP1-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1967 Test Flights Successfully. (05-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-85*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-114,LSP7-10*,NP1-4)

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## rockstarIN

CA-Tejas has completed* 1971 *Test Flights Successfully. (08-Jan-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-86,*LSP4-56,*LSP5-115*,*LSP7-12*,NP1-4)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed *1967 *Test Flights Successfully. (05-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36*,LSP3-85*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-114*,*LSP7-10*,NP1-4)


There is hardly any discussion on defense topics here, so better have some updation

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## Abingdonboy

rockstar said:


> CA-Tejas has completed* 1971 *Test Flights Successfully. (08-Jan-2013).
> 
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-86,*LSP4-56,*LSP5-115*,*LSP7-12*,NP1-4)
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed *1967 *Test Flights Successfully. (05-Jan-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36*,LSP3-85*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-114*,*LSP7-10*,NP1-4)
> 
> 
> There is hardly any discussion on defense topics here, so better have some updation



When will the NP-2 (Naval fighter vaersion) fly? It seems to be at least 1 year late as of now and there doesn't seem to be any news on the subject

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## rockstarIN

Abingdonboy said:


> When will the NP-2 (Naval fighter vaersion) fly? It seems to be at least 1 year late as of now and there doesn't seem to be any news on the subject



Taxi run is on as I read somewhere.

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## Abingdonboy

rockstar said:


> Taxi run is on as I read somewhere.



Cool, I hope this is true!

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## The A-5

NP-2 is the single-seat naval fighter IMO.

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## Abingdonboy

The A-5 said:


> NP-2 is the single-seat naval fighter IMO.



Yes, this was what I was referring to.

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## subincb

rockstar said:


> Taxi run is on as I read somewhere.



Are you sure it was NP2 and not LSP-8. The last I heard was they are still redesigning the landing gear


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## rockstarIN

subincb said:


> Are you sure it was NP2 and not LSP-8. The last I heard was they are still redesigning the landing gear



Im not sure though. LSP-8 is already doing ground testing.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update
CA-Tejas has completed 1971 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Jan-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-86,LSP4-56,LSP5-115,LSP7-12,NP1-4)


to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1977 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-88*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-117*,*LSP7-14*,NP1-4)
to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1980 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-89*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-118*,*LSP7-15*,NP1-4)


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## Anony

Where is LSP6? Why it has gone missing? Does it mean the LSP8 will also not meet required AoA as this test was to be performed
on LSP6.


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## David2mayes

have a nice day!!


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1980 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-89,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1981 Test Flights Successfully. (16-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-90*,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I have worked for HAL long enough, I have been the biggest critic of ADA due to my experience. I have quite a few close friends who have personally work with project, and I put my thoughts based on informed reliable opinions and my interpretations of ground realities and their implications.



Hi Sandy, from your experience and knowledge, can you say if or what HAL would have done differently in the overall LCA project, if they would have been in charge and not ADA/DRDO?


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Hi Sandy, from your experience and knowledge, can you say if or what HAL would have done differently in the overall LCA project, if they would have been in charge and not ADA/DRDO?



Sancho, 

My understanding is MoD ditched HAL in mid 80's when they wanted to take on the LCA project, instead they went ahead and conceptualized from scratch ADA/NAL which were drdo brainchild. First thing that comes to my mind is the talent pool. ADA needed a considerable longer time to break it's engineers and technicians. This lead time proved to be very costly. ADA did not much knowledge of material testing especially in composites and had a very steep learning curve in defining , handling and producing CRFP. HAL would not have faced the above problems. HAL as been certifying alloys and composites long before ADA and has an exceptional environment and test protocols, which were non-existent in ada. They are up to date now, but it costed us valuable time.

If LCA project was in the hands of HAL, the design would have been at par and would have been a optimal production design based on the capabilities available instead of design that needs to optimized and re-engineered to suit the current setup. Certain block at MoD was very interested in dealing with LM, in case of HAL most probably that role would have been divided into dasault and Knaapo, which would have helped considerably. 


There are quite a few component testing blunders that ADA and associated labs have done which I cannot reveal in a public sphere, would have not been there if HAL was incharge. Transition of design prototypes to production versions would have been easier, less time consuming. Amount of re-engineering, tooling design for manufacturing would be lesser. The rate at which the mk2 design is being integrated imo would have taken a shorter lead time compared to what is being done right now.

Delivering a project just doesn't mean specifying a product and it's sub assmblies. Now the idea was that ADA will make design package and give it to HAL, what HAL expected from ADA was the same as it does from BAE or Irkut, that is design data( assembly, component, material, layout, ) and production data (tooling, fixtures, treatment, layout, interim test checks, RCA plans). ADA barely could deliver assembly component and material data, production data was non-existent. In other words ADA has achieved what a TRV - design unit from HAL could have done on it's own. 

Gross mis-management and mis handling on ADA's part is actually due to MoD and it's directives. Hopefully transition from mk1 to Mk2 will be easier with HAL playing a bigger part. But unfortunately my fear is with rafale on the horizon, mki at full swing, there is a fat chance HAL might put the cheaper barely profitable LCA on the back burner.

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## Paan Singh

@sandy_3126

Do u think HAL can absorb rafale? and u think HAL can manufacture rafale at fast rate?


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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> Sancho,
> 
> My understanding is MoD ditched HAL in mid 80's when they wanted to take on the LCA project, instead they went ahead and conceptualized from scratch ADA/NAL which were drdo brainchild. First thing that comes to my mind is the talent pool. ADA needed a considerable longer time to break it's engineers and technicians. This lead time proved to be very costly. ADA did not much knowledge of material testing especially in composites and had a very steep learning curve in defining , handling and producing CRFP. HAL would not have faced the above problems. HAL as been certifying alloys and composites long before ADA and has an exceptional environment and test protocols, which were non-existent in ada. They are up to date now, but it costed us valuable time.
> 
> If LCA project was in the hands of HAL, the design would have been at par and would have been a optimal production design based on the capabilities available instead of design that needs to optimized and re-engineered to suit the current setup. Certain block at MoD was very interested in dealing with LM, in case of HAL most probably that role would have been divided into dasault and Knaapo, which would have helped considerably.
> 
> 
> There are quite a few component testing blunders that ADA and associated labs have done which I cannot reveal in a public sphere, would have not been there if HAL was incharge. Transition of design prototypes to production versions would have been easier, less time consuming. Amount of re-engineering, tooling design for manufacturing would be lesser. The rate at which the mk2 design is being integrated imo would have taken a shorter lead time compared to what is being done right now.
> 
> Delivering a project just doesn't mean specifying a product and it's sub assmblies. Now the idea was that ADA will make design package and give it to HAL, what HAL expected from ADA was the same as it does from BAE or Irkut, that is design data( assembly, component, material, layout, ) and production data (tooling, fixtures, treatment, layout, interim test checks, RCA plans). ADA barely could deliver assembly component and material data, production data was non-existent. In other words ADA has achieved what a TRV - design unit from HAL could have done on it's own.
> 
> Gross mis-management and mis handling on ADA's part is actually due to MoD and it's directives. Hopefully transition from mk1 to Mk2 will be easier with HAL playing a bigger part. But unfortunately *my fear is with rafale on the horizon, mki at full swing, there is a fat chance HAL might put the cheaper barely profitable LCA on the back burner*.



Why do you think that sir ???
Rafale and MKIs won't fit in day to day low cost operations. LCA can. And more over to keep the SQD number we need LCA MK-2 in numbers 200+. If they ditch LCA how they gona achieve it ???


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## MilSpec

Paan Singh said:


> @sandy_3126
> 
> Do u think HAL can absorb rafale? and u think HAL can manufacture rafale at fast rate?



There is a problem .... According to me the main guys who have delivered largest airframes is Nasik Division, (mig21's mig 23 assm, mig 27 assm, upgrades and overhaul, su30MKI's), other division that has delivered is banglore div which has many enclaves but none of them are big enough. Nasik div would have been ideal for rafales, but it is clogged with MKI's and as soon as it's done the mki it will commence FGFA, in some circles the news is fgfa might see initial CKD assemblies along with the mki production line. 
What that essentially means Banglore division would need additional capabilities, CNC profilers, treatment shops, AL stamping units, koraput and korwa divisions will also need additional capabilities to accommodate rafale's avionics and propulsions. Rafale being twin engined a/c will need nearly the same rate of production as the mki's propulsion needs. It's going to be a very challenging task. They need to start recruitment right now and depute the work force for training in nasik division and then transfer them to banglore when the lines are being setup. 

Hopefully this is how it might look
Nasik= MKI+mig27/mig 21 overhaul----->>FGFA+MKI/mig 27 overhaul
Banglore = AJT+jaguar overhaul+ Rafale + LCA---->> AMCA

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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> Why do you think that sir ???
> Rafale and MKIs won't fit in day to day low cost operations. LCA can. And more over to keep the SQD number we need LCA MK-2 in numbers 200+. If they ditch LCA how they gona achieve it ???



That is IAF's prerogative not HAL's. IAF doesn't discount HAL to be patriotic, it doesn't discount hal as it does to Knaapo/irkut, or even Dassault. IAF will blindly sign a cheque for knaapo based on a paper plane, but wont release money for LCA MK1 on HAL' guarantee. If IAF is confident that LCA is sqdn strength builder and will cost less to operate, shouldn't they stand behind HAL to ensure an orderbook of say 250 mk2 + 50 trainers. 

I hope I am wrong, but IAF ki neeyat badal gayee hai.... Today IAF's coffers are full, they can afford to replace all it's single engine point defence interceptor like Mig21 by a frontline air dominance fighter Su30MKI and omnirole Rafale. Hence importance of a agile LWF is not on their cards right now. If IAF want's to go toe 2 toe with PLAAF, they would look be beyond LCA. I really hope my fears are foolish.

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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> That is IAF's prerogative not HAL's. IAF doesn't discount HAL to be patriotic, it doesn't discount hal as it does to Knaapo/irkut, or even Dassault. IAF will blindly sign a cheque for knaapo based on a paper plane, but wont release money for LCA MK1 on HAL' guarantee. If IAF is confident that LCA is sqdn strength builder and will cost less to operate, shouldn't they stand behind HAL to ensure an orderbook of say 250 mk2 + 50 trainers.
> 
> I hope I am wrong, but IAF ki neeyat badal gayee hai.... Today IAF's coffers are full, they can afford to replace all it's single engine point defence interceptor like Mig21 by a frontline air dominance fighter Su30MKI and omnirole Rafale. Hence importance of a agile LWF is not on their cards right now. If IAF want's to go toe 2 toe with PLAAF, they would look be beyond LCA. I really hope my fears are foolish.



Well sir you know my opinion about DRDO/HAL/ADA  so not going in details again. 

IAF do have some mistakes in decision making on LCA front. But I will disagree with you on confidence point. Means if look at the records of our above PSUs and firms we get big promises and increase our expectations but with the delivery we get something unexpected. That is rarely the case with forgin firms cuz they have years of experience.

IAF do need a low cost option and they will demand MK-2. and yes HAL have to have work on low profits in this project cuz it is getting all of the big govt deals without any competition . It's like Monoploy in the field.


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> Well sir you know my opinion about DRDO/HAL/ADA  so not going in details again.
> 
> IAF do have some mistakes in decision making on LCA front. But I will disagree with you on confidence point. Means if look at the records of our above PSUs and firms we get big promises and increase our expectations but with the delivery to get something unexpected. That is rarely the case with forgin firms cuz they have years of experience.
> 
> IAF do need a low cost option and they will demand MK-2. and yes HAL have to have work on low profits in this project cuz it is getting all of the big govt deals without any competition . It's like Monoploy in the field.



The only alternative to LCA at the price point IAF is looking at is FC1 from china... good luck getting that. 

When it comes to making a light fighter, the objective is to deploy it large numbers case and point f16, mig 21, mig 29, (minimum is around 350+ to alteast break even), after toiling hard when you come up with a confirmed order book of 48, what should HAL do. 

I am in no way suggesting HAL is not at fault, but IAF needs be a little less stingy, show more confidence in HAL, and in other words be a little punjabi (if you know what i mean). IAF needs to chill, needs to make an order book of atleast 350 jet... so HAL can dedicate a seperate line for MK2, provide mk2 in three tranches. Accept the first tranche with MMR Passive radar, next tranche with better engine and AESA, and then keep developing it.

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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> The only alternative to LCA at the price point IAF is looking at is FC1 from china... good luck getting that.
> 
> When it comes to making a light fighter, the objective is to deploy it large numbers case and point f16, mig 21, mig 29, (minimum is around 350+ to alteast break even), after toiling hard when you come up with a confirmed order book of 48, what should HAL do.
> 
> I am in no way suggesting HAL is not at fault, but IAF needs be a little less stingy, show more confidence in HAL, and in other words be a little punjabi (if you know what i mean). IAF needs to chill, needs to make an order book of atleast 350 jet... so HAL can dedicate a seperate line for MK2, provide mk2 in three tranches. Accept the first tranche with MMR Passive radar, next tranche with better engine and AESA, and then keep developing it.



Well sir if MK-2 gives what it promises I think IAF will definatly go for 300+ jets. The cause of low order is the lack of confidence agree. But we need to win the confidence. If HAL/DRDO/ADA work together and keep coordination then it's achievable. 

IAF has to meet its all needs. They can't invest out of proportion in one project on confidence. 
I think our PSUs have to prove themself so our forces can and will show faith in them. IN is already there

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## rockstarIN

sandy_3126 said:


> There is a problem .... According to me the main guys who have delivered largest airframes is Nasik Division, (mig21's mig 23 assm, mig 27 assm, upgrades and overhaul, su30MKI's), other division that has delivered is banglore div which has many enclaves but none of them are big enough. Nasik div would have been ideal for rafales, but it is clogged with MKI's and as soon as it's done the mki it will commence FGFA, in some circles the news is fgfa might see initial CKD assemblies along with the mki production line.
> What that essentially means Banglore division would need additional capabilities, CNC profilers, treatment shops, AL stamping units, *koraput and korwa divisions will also need additional capabilities to accommodate rafale's avionics and propulsions*. Rafale being twin engined a/c will need nearly the same rate of production as the mki's propulsion needs. It's going to be a very challenging task. They need to start recruitment right now and depute the work force for training in nasik division and then transfer them to banglore when the lines are being setup.
> 
> Hopefully this is how it might look
> Nasik= MKI+mig27/mig 21 overhaul----->>FGFA+MKI/mig 27 overhaul
> Banglore = AJT+jaguar overhaul+ Rafale + LCA---->> AMCA




There is already a new division is coming up in Northern side of Kerala for the electronics part production facility.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> When it comes to making a light fighter, the objective is to deploy it large numbers case and point f16, mig 21, mig 29, (minimum is around 350+ to alteast break even), after toiling hard when you come up with a confirmed order book of 48, what should HAL do.



That was the initial goal, but with all the delays of the project, the future potential is getting lower as well. By now and with MMRCA as an alternative, 200 LCAs will be the max for IAF, which still is a good number, the problem is only, that we fail to do things simple like the Chinese can, we often want to much and make things too complicated again.
Take the MK2 for instance, we had weight and thrust issues, so instead of fixing these things only and induct the version with MMR as soon as possible, we now added fuel tanks, more avionics, IRST, possibly even a new radar and to make it even worse, also want a complete new cockpit. These changes obviously needs more time, with more vulnerability to new delays as well, which explains the hasitation to further orders.
However, I agree with you that IAF should have ordered and inducted the MK1s way earlier, since they are clearly more capable than many of the older Migs, but I think that has to do with the long and slow testing process of ADA/HAL as well.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> That was the initial goal, but with all the delays of the project, the future potential is getting lower as well. By now and with MMRCA as an alternative, 200 LCAs will be the max for IAF, which still is a good number, the problem is only, that we fail to do things simple like the Chinese can, we often want to much and make things too complicated again.
> Take the MK2 for instance, we had weight and thrust issues, so instead of fixing these things only and induct the version with MMR as soon as possible, we now added fuel tanks, more avionics, IRST, possibly even a new radar and to make it even worse, also want a complete new cockpit. These changes obviously needs more time, with more vulnerability to new delays as well, which explains the hasitation to further orders.
> However, I agree with you that IAF should have ordered and inducted the MK1s way earlier, since they are clearly more capable than many of the older Migs, but I think that has to do with the long and slow testing process of ADA/HAL as well.
> 
> 
> I am in no way suggesting HAL is not at fault, but IAF needs be a little less stingy, show more confidence in HAL, and in other words be a little punjabi (if you know what i mean). IAF needs to chill, needs to make an order book of atleast 350 jet... so HAL can dedicate a seperate line for MK2, provide mk2 in three tranches. Accept the first tranche with MMR Passive radar, next tranche with better engine and AESA, and then keep developing it.


[/QUOTE]

Wow !!! One surprising thing here @sandy_3126 (one of the defenders of HAL/DRDO) and @sancho ( one of the biggest critisizer of the HAL/DRDO ) agreeing on same point 

@Topic : I got an apportunity to talk one of the retired IAF high ranker about a year ago. We talked on a lot of issues from Apache/Rafale/typhoon to LCA. He said *IAF want LCA to be a low cost 4+ gen AC and NOT just to replace Mig-21s. * he said MK-1 will be inducted just as training and testing AC but MK-2 will be added in 250+ numbers (12/14 SQD )

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> That was the initial goal, but with all the delays of the project, the future potential is getting lower as well. By now and with MMRCA as an alternative, 200 LCAs will be the max for IAF, which still is a good number, the problem is only, that we fail to do things simple like the Chinese can, we often want to much and make things too complicated again.
> Take the MK2 for instance, we had weight and thrust issues, so instead of fixing these things only and induct the version with MMR as soon as possible, we now added fuel tanks, more avionics, IRST, possibly even a new radar and to make it even worse, also want a complete new cockpit. These changes obviously needs more time, with more vulnerability to new delays as well, which explains the hasitation to further orders.
> However, I agree with you that IAF should have ordered and inducted the MK1s way earlier, since they are clearly more capable than many of the older Migs, but I think that has to do with the long and slow testing process of ADA/HAL as well.
> 
> 
> I am in no way suggesting HAL is not at fault, but IAF needs be a little less stingy, show more confidence in HAL, and in other words be a little punjabi (if you know what i mean). IAF needs to chill, needs to make an order book of atleast 350 jet... so HAL can dedicate a seperate line for MK2, provide mk2 in three tranches. Accept the first tranche with MMR Passive radar, next tranche with better engine and AESA, and then keep developing it.


[/QUOTE]

Sancho- I get that the LCA's delays in part can be explained by the IAF constantly changing their requirements. But this is fair enough surely in keeping with the IAF's philosophy of fighting quantity with quality. The IAF is not a force that seeks to put up sup-standard fighters with deficences made up by fielding them in huge numbers. This is a doctrinal issue.

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## sancho

QUOTE=Abingdonboy;3834545][/QUOTE]

Sancho- I get that the LCA's delays in part can be explained by the *IAF constantly changing their requirements*. But this is fair enough surely in keeping with the IAF's philosophy of fighting quantity with quality. The IAF is not a force that seeks to put *up sup-standard fighters* with deficences made up by fielding them in huge numbers. This is a doctrinal issue.[/QUOTE]

Are they really and if so why? Many people say this because of the higher thrust engine, but without understanding the reasons. LCA turned out to be heavier and draggier than planned, that's why certain flight performance goals couldn't met. But to as a solution to meet these old goals, was a new engine. So they didn't changed it without any reasons, nor was it a new requirement from them, infact they were the only once that resisted to go for an engine co-development, at a time when even DRDO had no faith in Kaveri K9 anymore. 
Similarly, ADA/DRDO promissed too much about the N-LCA and as IN already officially stated, these companies underestimated the changes and overestimated their capabilities, which is why IN, just like IAF requested corrections.


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## kurup

HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 | Tyagi says lines decked up for series production 

Bangalore: The Indian Air Force's (IAF) long and frustrating wait to own the home-grown combat fighter might be finally over with the Limited Series Production (LSP-8) version of Tejas completing two crucial engine ground runs (EGR) successfully. An elated Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman R K Tyagi told Express on Wednesday that his boys are working overtime to ensure that the LSP-8 hits the skies soon.
Battered by the media, bruised by IAF and butchered by desi aerospace gurus for unprecedented time and cost overruns, Team Tejas had to face the music from all quarters, for over a decade. Tyagi, who took over the reins of HAL last year, said that LSP-8 would make its maiden flight some time in February. &#8220;The aircraft is almost akin to the series production (SP) standard aircraft. We have upgraded the systems to incorporate the feedback from the ground/flight evaluation teams, who dealt with earlier LSP variants,&#8221; Tyagi said. It will be the 13th aircraft from the Tejas project flight-line to take to the skies, and along with LSP-7, the IAF pilots should soon begin their much-awaited user evaluation trials.
Two preliminary EGRs of LSP-8 have been completed so far for the first time by HAL personnel and certified by National Flight Test Centre. The aircraft is currently undergoing final system checks, to be followed by further inspections by certifying agencies. &#8220;Then we will have final ground runs, leading to low speed taxi trials (LSTT), high speed taxi trials (HSTT) and the actual first flight,&#8221; Tyagi said. &#8220;My team is really jubilant and we would soon commence the work on series production,&#8221; Tyagi added. 
He said with most of the aircraft system performance reaching almost desired level of expectation, Team Tejas in HAL would now be able to concentrate on stabilizing the production line. &#8220;The production line of Tejas at HAL has been moved to a new premises with a built-up area of around 28,000 sqm of Hangars, engineering and administrative blocks. Upgrade and augmentation of production tooling, which is expected to be 2.5 times of prototype requirements, is underway to enhance the rate of production and to expedite delivery of the aircraft,&#8221; Tyagi said. HAL promises to add more teeth to IAF by delivering 2 Squadrons of Tejas in the next five years.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 | Tyagi says lines decked up for series production


*LSP 8*

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## IND151

*The Indian Air Force&#8217;s (IAF) long and frustrating wait to own the home-grown combat fighter might be finally over with the Limited Series Production (LSP-8) version of Tejas completing two crucial engine ground runs (EGR) successfully.* An elated Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman R K Tyagi told Express on Wednesday that his boys are working overtime to ensure that the LSP-8 hits the skies soon.

Battered by the media, bruised by IAF and butchered by desi aerospace gurus for unprecedented time and cost overruns, Team Tejas had to face the music from all quarters, for over a decade. Tyagi, who took over the reins of HAL last year, said that LSP-8 would make its maiden flight some time in February. * &#8220;The aircraft is almost akin to the series production (SP) standard aircraft. We have upgraded the systems to incorporate the feedback from the ground/flight evaluation teams, who dealt with earlier LSP variants,&#8221; *Tyagi said. It will be the 13th aircraft from the Tejas project flight-line to take to the skies, and along with LSP-7, the IAF pilots should soon begin their much-awaited user evaluation trials.

*Two preliminary EGRs of LSP-8 have been completed so far for the first time by HAL personnel and certified by National Flight Test Centre. * The aircraft is currently undergoing final system checks, to be followed by further inspections by certifying agencies. *&#8220;Then we will have final ground runs, leading to low speed taxi trials (LSTT), high speed taxi trials (HSTT) and the actual first flight,&#8221;* Tyagi said. &#8220;My team is really jubilant and we would soon commence the work on series production,&#8221; Tyagi added.

He said with most of the aircraft system performance reaching almost desired level of expectation, Team Tejas in HAL would now be able to concentrate on stabilizing the production line.* &#8220;The production line of Tejas at HAL has been moved to a new premises with a built-up area of around 28,000 sqm of Hangars, engineering and administrative blocks. Upgrade and augmentation of production tooling, which is expected to be 2.5 times of prototype requirements, is underway to enhance the rate of production and to expedite delivery of the aircraft,&#8221;* Tyagi said. HAL promises to add more teeth to IAF by delivering 2 Squadrons of Tejas in the next five years.

HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 ,Tyagi says lines decked up for series production | idrw.org





HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 ,Tyagi says lines decked up for series production | idrw.org

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1981 Test Flights Successfully. (16-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-90,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1985 Test Flights Successfully. (23-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-94*,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

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## ziaulislam

so finally..
when r we expecting first sq

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## satishkumarcsc

ziaulislam said:


> so finally..
> when r we expecting first sq



Hell no....are you dreaming? Our squadrons consists of 18 to 20 aircrafts basically...there are only 8 of these birds. These will be used by the IAF for the second IOC(whatever that bullcrap means) and the FOC. So the first squadron might be inducted two years later after the FOC if things go smoothly. 

These aircrafts will now open their flight envelope fully and will be pushed to it's limits to see what it can do.


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## rockstarIN

ziaulislam said:


> so finally..
> when r we expecting first sq



Two in 5 yrs(20 each) MK1 configuration, thats what the above article says.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Conformal antenna arrays a reality for future Indian Aerospace programs*

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## kurup

Astra BVR to be Integrated with Tejas aircraft by year end

Back from successful development trails of Astra Missile last month , Sources close to idrw.org have informed that Astra Bvraam will be integrated with Tejas aircraft by year end , but *first test firing of the missile from an aircraft will likely take place in mid of this year from Sukhoi Su 30MKI .*

The *maximum range of Astra is 80 km* in head-on chase and 20 km in tail chase. The missile could be launched from different altitudes &#8211; it can cover 80 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when fired from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when the altitude is sea-level . The missile can reportedly undertake 40 g turns close to sea level.

First test was carried out 10 years ago in 2003 but missile was more of a Technology Demonstrator then and many of the technology was yet to be developed . missile has lost lot of weight and new missile sensor had to be developed . *Initially missile range was around 40km in head-on chase but advancement in missile technology over the years and development of the missile enabled it to achieve 80 km in head-on chase* , Missile will find its way into Sukhoi Su-30MKI first and later in Tejas MK-1/MK-2, first test firing from Tejas might take place next year after series of in flight testings are carried out of the missile on-board aircraft.

Astra will also will be integrated with Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 in near future after missile hits production line most likely in 2015 .* DRDO is also planning of more advance variant of Astra MK-2 with 110-120 km range in near future* .

http://idrw.org/?p=17837


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## trident2010

Conformal antennas are not new. It was always possible to make conformal arrays. Good news nevertheless.


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## sancho

> *Hindustan Aeronautics is ready to take on challenges: Tyagi*
> 
> ...*1.India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been getting delayed, what is the latest update and what is happening with the naval version?*
> 
> Ans:LCA is a prestigious national project in which HAL is the lead production agency and ADA is the lead designer. At present the design and production activities are going concurrently. However, HAL is geared up to commence delivery against the current order for LCA within three to six months of the aircraft certification (Initial Operation Clearance - IOC). We hope that ADA achieves IOC by the second quarter of 2013.
> 
> We have already initiated proactive action pertaining to tooling, assembly jigs and build requirements and we are in the process of streamlining various productionization activities which would lead to ramping up of production rate.
> 
> The maiden flight of the Naval variant of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), NP-1, was carried out successfully on April 27, 2012. Flight with undercarriage retraction was carried out on June 27, 2012. Presently the Naval LCA is being prepared for shore based testing facility trials...
> 
> ...*4.'What are your expansion plans for HAL?*
> 
> ...LCA production facilities will be augmented to increase the production up to 16 aircraft per year...



Hindustan Aeronautics is ready to take on challenges: Tyagi - Indian Express



kurup said:


> Astra will also will be integrated with Mirage-2000



That is idrw.org BS again, Mirage 2000s will get MICA as already announced, not to mention that Astra could be carried only at the inner wing stations, because of the size, which would be a major disadvantage for Mirage.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

trident2010 said:


> Conformal antennas are not new. It was always possible to make conformal arrays. Good news nevertheless.



Not for India. This technology was developed during the RISAT program and has been transferred to private industry. Future fighter and missile programs will see use of conformal antenna arrays especially AMCA program.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1985 Test Flights Successfully. (23-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-94,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1989 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,*LSP3-95*,LSP4-56,*LSP5-122*,*LSP7-18*,NP1-4)

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## rockstarIN

^^One day 4 flights, thats cool


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## trident2010

What happened to LSP-6? It was suppose to test higher AoA.


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## Dazzler

The dream of fitting Kaveri engine being developed indigenously into the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft LCA-Tejas appears to be as good as over.

"Kaveri engine as such will never come into LCA", P S Subramanyam, Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO lab, which is the nodal agency for the design and development of LCA with HAL as the principal partner, told PTI here. Noting that LCA-Mark 1 and Mark 2 will have engines from GE, he, however, said the LCA would support Kaveri engine's flight tests and demonstrations and certification.

"As and when there is support required by the Kaveri engine, LCA will give support of its flying test facilities", Subramanyam said. He expected flying tests of Kaveri engine to lead to its fitting into unmanned air systems. Subramanyam said Kaveri engine-fitted LCA would not go into the Services. "In the production aircraft (LCA) going into the Services, Kaveri engine will not be there". Kaveri engine, originally intended to power the LCA, was taken up for development by Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) about two-and-half-decades ago but the project has been dogged by delays, with the DRDO lab not being fully able to overcome technical challenges and development snags.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and DRDO Director General V K Saraswat said unmanned air systems would see the integration of Kaveri engine for different applications. Kaveri engine will be demonstrated on board an Indian origin aircraft, added Saraswat, also Secretary in the Department of Defence (R&D). Meanwhile, Subramanyam said the first LCA produced by HAL would be ready in the third quarter of this year.


Kaveri flops, LCA-Tejas to fly on US engines

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## satishkumarcsc

nabil_05 said:


> The dream of fitting Kaveri engine being developed indigenously into the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft LCA-Tejas appears to be as good as over.
> 
> "Kaveri engine as such will never come into LCA", P S Subramanyam, Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO lab, which is the nodal agency for the design and development of LCA with HAL as the principal partner, told PTI here. Noting that LCA-Mark 1 and Mark 2 will have engines from GE, he, however, said the LCA would support Kaveri engine's flight tests and demonstrations and certification.
> 
> "As and when there is support required by the Kaveri engine, LCA will give support of its flying test facilities", Subramanyam said. He expected flying tests of Kaveri engine to lead to its fitting into unmanned air systems. Subramanyam said Kaveri engine-fitted LCA would not go into the Services. "In the production aircraft (LCA) going into the Services, Kaveri engine will not be there". Kaveri engine, originally intended to power the LCA, was taken up for development by Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) about two-and-half-decades ago but the project has been dogged by delays, with the DRDO lab not being fully able to overcome technical challenges and development snags.
> 
> Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and DRDO Director General V K Saraswat said unmanned air systems would see the integration of Kaveri engine for different applications. Kaveri engine will be demonstrated on board an Indian origin aircraft, added Saraswat, also Secretary in the Department of Defence (R&D). Meanwhile, Subramanyam said the first LCA produced by HAL would be ready in the third quarter of this year.
> 
> 
> Kaveri flops, LCA-Tejas to fly on US engines



Very old news....was posted here a week back.


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## Che Guevara

I don't care if tejas is flop, more important part of this project is that its completely Indian work and also kaveri..... continue with it....if not today, after 10 years we will be capable of make our own quality aircraft.....


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## Black Widow

nabil_05 said:


> The dream of fitting Kaveri engine being developed indigenously into the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft LCA-Tejas appears to be as good as over.
> HAL would be ready in the third quarter of this year.
> 
> 
> Kaveri flops, LCA-Tejas to fly on US engines





@nabil_005: This issue is discussed million times.

a> Kaveri engine was decommissioned from LCA project many year ago. Kaveri project for LCA was a blunder (As India had no choice as world didn't provided us engine in 60s). It would be better if Management would have made kaveri seperate project. 
b> Unlike some other country (USA,Russia) India is unwilling to induct pre-mature fighters. As USA and Russia develop/research fighter they induct pre-mature fighters...

IAF will not induct LCA unless
a) It has night flying capability
b) It has optimum TWR what IAF need.
c) It has Missile foring capability
d) It has specified radar and EW suits.
e) It has ground attack capability.


I was browsing one of forum thread I was amazed to read that one of fighter (claimed 4.5 gen fighter) acquired by one country had no night flying capability , no missile firing capability and many more. These features added in upcoming blocks. 
If IAF agree with it, LCA would have inducted 5 years ago in IAF.

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## karan.1970

Black Widow said:


> I was browsing one of forum thread I was amazed to read that one of fighter (claimed 4.5 gen fighter) acquired by one country had no night flying capability , no missile firing capability and many more. These features added in upcoming blocks.



Which fighter and country was this ?


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## Black Widow

karan.1970 said:


> Which fighter and country was this ?





Karan, I will search for that comment and post here, But worried it will flame d!ck comparing and derail the thread.


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## karan.1970

Black Widow said:


> Karan, I will search for that comment and post here, But worried it will flame d!ck comparing and derail the thread.



From your reply it seems you are talking about JFT.. If yes, then avoid..


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## Capt.Popeye

nabil_05 said:


> The dream of fitting Kaveri engine being developed indigenously into the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft LCA-Tejas appears to be as good as over.
> 
> "Kaveri engine as such will never come into LCA", P S Subramanyam, Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO lab, which is the nodal agency for the design and development of LCA with HAL as the principal partner, told PTI here. Noting that LCA-Mark 1 and Mark 2 will have engines from GE, he, however, said the LCA would support Kaveri engine's flight tests and demonstrations and certification.
> 
> "As and when there is support required by the Kaveri engine, LCA will give support of its flying test facilities", Subramanyam said. He expected flying tests of Kaveri engine to lead to its fitting into unmanned air systems. Subramanyam said Kaveri engine-fitted LCA would not go into the Services. "In the production aircraft (LCA) going into the Services, Kaveri engine will not be there". Kaveri engine, originally intended to power the LCA, was taken up for development by Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) about two-and-half-decades ago but the project has been dogged by delays, with the DRDO lab not being fully able to overcome technical challenges and development snags.
> 
> Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and DRDO Director General V K Saraswat said unmanned air systems would see the integration of Kaveri engine for different applications. Kaveri engine will be demonstrated on board an Indian origin aircraft, added Saraswat, also Secretary in the Department of Defence (R&D). Meanwhile, Subramanyam said the first LCA produced by HAL would be ready in the third quarter of this year.
> 
> 
> Kaveri flops, LCA-Tejas to fly on US engines



YES, it is clear that as of now; the Kaveri is not selected to power Tejas. Because it has not met the specific requirements for Tejas.

But does it work or not? Is the Kaveri project junked? 
The answer to both questions is NO.

The Kaveri project started as a project to power the LCA. But since it did not meet the specific requirements, it has morphed into a development for various engines which are in developmental phase as we speak. 

One of them is the KMGT (Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine) which is intended to power ships. Since it is free of the specific requirement/restriction of size and weight of the aero-engine it has given encouraging results. The DND has taken it up enthusiastically and it will become a likely candidate for future IN ship propulsion. Once the design is acceped it is a prime candidate to replace the Ukrainian built GT engines in IN ships during Long Refits/MLUs.

Another spin-off is a down scaled version that will be used to power UAVs/UCAVs. Even this project is well under-way.
Other smaller versions already power compact power units for critical power applications and APUs. 

If the Kaveri project had not been embarked upon; India would have made very little progress in GT design and manufacture.

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## Capt.Popeye

Black Widow said:


> Karan, I will search for that comment and post here, But worried it will flame d!ck comparing and derail the thread.



Leave it there. The Design and Development Philosphy behind the two projects is vastly different.
And there are very good reasons for that.

Just one of the reasons is the "factor of critical necessity".

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## sancho

Capt.Popeye said:


> Leave it there. The Design and Development Philosphy behind the two projects is vastly different.



True, but the ease of development, inducting and upgrading is also vastly different and shows the advantages they have now. A manufacturer that is aimed on making things simple and according to their capabilities, but upgrading it later with more capable and modern techs and capabilities.
That's why they are inducting the 3rd squadron now, while we still play with prototypes, even if as capable.

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## Capt.Popeye

sancho said:


> True, but the ease of development, inducting and upgrading is also vastly different and shows the advantages they have now. A manufacturer that is aimed on making things simple and according to their capabilities, but upgrading it later with more capable and modern techs and capabilities.
> That's why they are inducting the 3rd squadron now, while we still play with prototypes, even if as capable.



You overlooked the next lines:



> And there are very good reasons for that.
> 
> Just one of the reasons is the "factor of critical necessity".


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-462.html#ixzz2JMgehN3M

Read it in context.

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## sancho

Capt.Popeye said:


> You overlooked the next lines:



No I read them, but the necessity has nothing to do with the failures we made in project managment and planning. That is why our fighter is still not in serial production, while theirs is.
We wanted a more capable fighter and that is was the right way to go, but we should have done it in a similar simple way, by choosing ready and available engines and radars.


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## Capt.Popeye

sancho said:


> No I read them, but the necessity has nothing to do with the failures we made in project managment and planning. That is why our fighter is still not in serial production, while theirs is.
> We wanted a more capable fighter and that is was the right way to go, but we should have done it in a similar simple way, by choosing ready and available engines and radars.



Sancho, I was not discussing or dissecting the project(s). I simply explained the underlying reason (only one of them) for the difference between the Design and Development Philosophies.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Widow said:


> I was browsing one of forum thread I was amazed to read that one of fighter (claimed 4.5 gen fighter) acquired by one country had no night flying capability , no missile firing capability and many more. These features added in upcoming blocks.
> If IAF agree with it, LCA would have inducted 5 years ago in IAF.



A FART, Brain fart more precisely, after having too much of LCA reality food.
Indians have bad digestive system.


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## Alfa-Fighter

danger-zone said:


> A FART, Brain fart more precisely, after having too much of LCA reality food.
> Indians have bad digestive system.



Is that some Fighter really accepted by someone which dont have these things , then that AF is serious trouble.


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## trident2010

danger-zone said:


> A FART, Brain fart more precisely, after having too much of LCA reality food.
> Indians have bad digestive system.



Yes it is possible since we don't eat grass to survive !!

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## Ammyy

Black Widow said:


> IAF will not induct LCA unless
> a) It has night flying capability
> b) It has optimum TWR what IAF need.
> c) It has Missile foring capability
> d) It has specified radar and EW suits.
> e) It has ground attack capability.
> 
> 
> I was browsing one of forum thread I was amazed to read that one of fighter (claimed 4.5 gen fighter) acquired by one country had no night flying capability , no missile firing capability and many more. These features added in upcoming blocks.
> If IAF agree with it, *LCA would have inducted 5 years ago in IAF. *
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]



Buddy just like China we have some standards and cant compromise with them just for money


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## RPK

*Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: BEL delivers critical systems for over 50 LCAs | From contract manufacturer to development partner*








Bangalore: Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) has completed the delivery of critical systems for more than 50 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). In an interview to Express, BEL chairman and managing director Anil Kumar said that during BEL&#8217;s association with various labs of Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) in the last 19 years, the company has built a strong technical base to address various technological challenges of LCA avionics.
&#8220;We are providing lifetime support (30 years) for all these systems, which will get into over 50 limited series and series production Tejas fighters. All the above systems have successfully passed the stringent qualification requirements of airborne platforms and type certificates have been issued by the Centre for Military Airworthiness Certification,&#8221; Anil Kumar said.
He said the exclusive Strategic Business Unit (SBU) for Electronic Warfare and Avionics (EW&A) set up at BEL&#8217;s Bangalore Complex in 2006, has now matured as a key arm of the company, with a AS9100 quality standard certification to its kitty. He said the equipment and systems being supplied for LCA are manufactured at this SBU, which boats of a state-of-the-art infrastructure with anti-static layout.
Among the critical systems that went onboard LCA from SBU are: Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC), the most flight-critical and powerful LRU, Air Data Computer (ADC), Flight Control Panel, De-icing Current Sensing Unit, DFCC Interface Unit, Function Sensor Display Unit, Head Up Display and Integrally Lit Cockpit Panel.
&#8220;We have been providing support during the development phase and flight trials of avionics systems of LCA by addressing changes in design and other requirements well beyond the warranty period. Our idea was to ensure expeditious completion of all activities required for LCA&#8217;s Initial Operational Clearance,&#8221; the BEL CMD said. BEL has also invested considerably on proactive development of many avionics systems such as Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) Mk-II, Air Data Computer (ADC) Mk-II, Universal Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC) and Radar Warner and Jammer, which has led to the improvement of system capability, reliability and cost reduction.
Though BEL has remained as an unsung hero through out the LCA programme, Anil Kumar says that the company has had a long journey in the last two decades, from starting as a contract manufacturer of LCA line replaceable units (LRUs), to emerging as a development and manufacturing partner with DRDO labs.
BEL MENU FOR TEJAS:
Flight Control Systems: Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC), the most flight-critical and powerful LRU, Air Data Computer (ADC), Levcon Air Data Computer, Flight Control Panel, De-icing Current Sensing Unit and DFCC Interface Unit.
Weapon Control Systems: Pylon Interface Box-Inboard, Pylon Interface Box-Outboard, Pylon Interface Box-Laser and Stores Interface Box.
Cockpit and Display Modules: Function Sensor Display Unit, Head Up Display, Integrally Lit Cockpit Panel, Multi-Function Keyboard, Multi-Function Rotary Switch, Engine Fuel Indicator, Get-U-Home and Bus Interface Unit.
Electronic Support Measure Systems: Radar Warning Receiver comprising of Signal Processor Unit, Control and Compatibility Unit, Switch Filter Assembly (RF Unit), Auxiliary Power Supply Unit and Antenna.
ATEs: Advanced Engineering Test Station for DFCC and other ATEs for all the above mentioned systems


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1989 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-95,LSP4-56,LSP5-122,LSP7-18,NP1-4)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1995 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Jan-2013)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,*LSP2-239*,PV5-36,LSP3-95,*LSP4-57*,LSP5-122,LSP7-18,NP1-4)

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## rockstarIN

LSP 2 & 4 started flying after a long period..


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## sancho



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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## Che Guevara



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## subincb

rockstar said:


> LSP 2 & 4 started flying after a long period..



There was some news earlier that LSP 2 and 4 radars are being upgraded/prepared for air to air missile release.

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## kurup

subincb said:


> There was some news earlier that LSP 2 and 4 radars are being upgraded/prepared for air to air missile release.



Good news .

Any idea about the status of LSP6 .


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## indiatester

They have cranked up the testing visibly for the past week. I can see the pilots doing multiple kinds of rolls. I can definitely identify the barrel roll and the circle turn. Is it legal for me to take a pic and post?
But lovely to see the bird firm and loud.


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## The A-5

^^Ofcourse you can post those pics.

Guess they must've crossed 2000 flights by now...?

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## Abingdonboy

indiatester said:


> They have cranked up the testing visibly for the past week. I can see the pilots doing multiple kinds of rolls. I can definitely identify the barrel roll and the circle turn. Is it legal for me to take a pic and post?
> But lovely to see the bird firm and loud.



Of course it is legal! The LCA isn't a secret/"black" project! 


+ maybe all the extra activity is practice for Air India 2013?

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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course it is legal! The LCA isn't a secret/"black" project!
> 
> 
> + maybe all the extra activity is practice for Air India 2013?



LCA is slated to give flying demonstrations in Aero 2013.


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## Abingdonboy

Capt.Popeye said:


> LCA is slated to give flying demonstrations in Aero 2013.



That's what I meant.


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## Sergi

indiatester said:


> They have cranked up the testing visibly for the past week. I can see the pilots doing multiple kinds of rolls. I can definitely identify the barrel roll and the circle turn. Is it legal for me to take a pic and post?
> But lovely to see the bird firm and loud.



Its leagal as long as you stay out of restricted perimeter 
Try to shoot video not pics. 

Off topic : there is a board on Pune airbase fence : trespassers will be shot. And the wounded will be shot again  I like that board.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

*LCA Tejas (LSP 7 also) for Winter Trials at Leh*

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## &#347;&#363;nya_0_Zero

^^^^ Marvellous pics.. thanx.

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## trident2010

Nice pics !!

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## Bobby

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> *LCA Tejas (LSP 7 also) for Winter Trials at Leh*



Thanks for cool pictures.....

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## Che Guevara



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## Bobby

Che Guevara said:


>



beauty...................................


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## Abingdonboy

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Breaking on Tarmak007: Tejas logs Flight No. 2000



> Just got conformation from a source that India's Tejas fighter crossed a very significant milestone by logging the 2000th flight. The much-awaited moment happened yesterday (evening 02 Feb '13), when a LSP-4 aircraft from the Tejas line logged Flight No 2000, during practice sessions for Aero India. The LCAs at Aero India are expected to perform 'multiple aerobatics' for the first time. A formal announcement is expected shortly. Congratulations to Tejas designers, engineers, Test pilots, flight-test engineers, technicians and ground crew.



http://tarmak007.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/breaking-on-tarmak007-tejas-logs-flight.html

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## Abingdonboy




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## True pakistani 22

India is working on Tajes since 1983 
abhi tak Indian air force main Join nahi ho 
hahahah :LOL


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## conworldus

Abingdonboy said:


>



What is the purpose of the orange paint above the engine? Doesnt look like light since it looks scratched in one of the pictures previously.


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## Abingdonboy

conworldus said:


> What is the purpose of the orange paint above the engine? Doesnt look like light since it looks scratched in one of the pictures previously.



This is a high visibility paint job for the parachute housing. More than likely just for prototypes and LSPs.

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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## kam83

True pakistani 22 said:


> India is working on* Tajes* since 1983
> abhi tak Indian air force main Join nahi ho
> hahahah :LOL



 can't even spell its name correctly and he comes here to troll....
Go back to school....madrassa has not helped you a lot.

like i always say "naach na jaane aagan teda..."


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## hurt

kam83 said:


> can't even spell its name correctly and he comes here to troll....
> Go back to school....madrassa has not helped you a lot.
> 
> like i always say "naach na jaane aagan teda..."



Plz tell me that its combat radius.


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## True pakistani 22

kam83 said:


> can't even spell its name correctly and he comes here to troll....
> Go back to school....madrassa has not helped you a lot.
> 
> like i always say "naach na jaane aagan teda..."



i asked question 
tum Marchi kis baat ki laghy rahy hai


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## kam83

True pakistani 22 said:


> i asked question
> tum Marchi kis baat ki laghy rahy hai



Marchi 

mujhe mirchi nahi lagi .....lollllll self proclaimed intellectual..waise bhi tum defence term jaan ke karo ge bhi kya...pehle English to thik se shik lo ..phir defence ke bare mein sikna
now stop going offtopic
here u go ..u want to learn history of LCA

http://lca-tejas.org/history.html

let me get u upto speed

1)In 1983, India commenced a programme to develop an aircraft to replace its aging Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21s as the Air Force's primary multi-role tactical fighter.

2)the design was finalised in 1990 as a small, delta-winged machine

3) Phase I commenced in 1990

4) But the involvement of Lockheed Martin was terminated in 1998 as part of a US response to India's second nuclear tests in 1998. The same US ban led General Electric to suspend delivery of the F404 engines that were to power the aircraft.Eventually, the integration of the flight control laws was done indigenously by the NAL team.

5) the first LCA technology demonstrator finally took to the air in 2001..

we did all that even after sanction on us ..we din't go with begging bowl and and asked for plane on loans

LCA has given so many offshoot to indian industry and valuable first hand experience what it means to design and build a aircraft testament to the fact is nearing 2000 flight *without a single crash*(taking my hint )even when subjected to harsh environment of two extreme from Snow winter in Leh ladakh to Desert summer in rajasthan 
Now thats a commendable effort for rookie like India...



LCA may not be the best aircraft in the world but its a first baby step of India to achieve a bigger dream....
I love our LCA

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## hurt

I want to know its combat radius.


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## Black Widow

hurt said:


> I want to know its combat radius.





Why you want to know the Combat radius of Point defense fighter???

For now you know only this... : With Mid Air refuelling the Combat radius is flexible..


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## hurt

Black Widow said:


> Why you want to know the Combat radius of Point defense fighter???
> 
> For now you know only this... : With Mid Air refuelling the Combat radius is flexible..



Is it really 300 km?


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## rockstarIN

hurt said:


> I want to know its combat radius.



It is flexible depending upon mission configuration and drop tanks, like any other fighters.


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## kurup

*Tejas with IFR probe*

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## veekysingh

kurup said:


> *Tejas with IFR probe*



its just a mock up


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## hurt

rockstar said:


> It is flexible depending upon mission configuration and drop tanks, like any other fighters.



Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg 
Combat radius: 300 km
Range: 850 km
Useful load:4,000kg

External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard&#65309;2,000 kg
Combat radius: 540 km
Range: 1530 km
Useful load:2,000kg

External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage &#65309;2,500 kg
Combat radius: 600km
Range: 1700 km
Useful load:1,500kg

&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;Point defense


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## indiatester

*Tejas in practice*

*During loop*





*End of loop*





*Before exiting*

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## hurt

Black Widow said:


> Why you want to know the Combat radius of Point defense fighter???
> 
> For now you know only this... : With Mid Air refuelling the Combat radius is flexible..



Air refuelling?

Only 7 IL-78MKIs?

The typical Point defense interceptor is English Electric Lightning.
Range: 850 mi(1,370 km) Supersonic intercept radius: 155 mi (250 km)

Tejas
Range: 850 km Supersonic intercept radius=155 km

so little point.


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## anonymous_bot

I would say... I want more!!! we all want more..


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## Abingdonboy

hurt said:


> Air refuelling?
> 
> Only 7 IL-78MKIs?
> 
> The typical Point defense interceptor is English Electric Lightning.
> Range: 850 mi(1,370 km) Supersonic intercept radius: 155 mi (250 km)
> 
> Tejas
> Range: 850 km Supersonic intercept radius=155 km
> 
> so little point.


Just recently the Airbus A330 MRTT won the IAF's contract for 6 new AARs, there is an option for 6 more which will almost certainly be taken up and follow-on orders are pretty likely. By 2022 the IAF will be operating atleast 20-25 AARs (IL-78MKIs will be retired by 2018) and the Indian Navy will operate 7-8 of their own AARs.


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## ANPP

hurt said:


> Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
> Combat radius: 300 km
> Range: 850 km
> Useful load:4,000kg
> 
> External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard&#65309;2,000 kg
> Combat radius: 540 km
> *Range: 1530 km*
> Useful load:2,000kg
> 
> External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage &#65309;2,500 kg
> Combat radius: 600km
> Range: 1700 km
> Useful load:1,500kg
> 
> &#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;Point defense



Thats old my friend. IAF changed specification for the LCA around 2003. Now LCA has 3000km ferry range at altitude.
BTW J10s ferry range is ~1800km & claim combat radius of 1600km. Than just calculate LCA combat range by yourself.


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## rockstarIN

hurt said:


> Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
> Combat radius: 300 km
> Range: 850 km
> Useful load:4,000kg
> 
> External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard&#65309;2,000 kg
> Combat radius: 540 km
> Range: 1530 km
> Useful load:2,000kg
> 
> External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage &#65309;2,500 kg
> Combat radius: 600km
> Range: 1700 km
> Useful load:1,500kg
> 
> &#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;&#844;Point defense



If it is assigned to defend its air base on an enemy attack, it is radius will be 20 km only.


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## hurt

rockstar said:


> If it is assigned to defend its air base on an enemy attack, it is radius will be 20 km only.



Do you know what is *Air-to-surface missile?



ANPP said:


> Now LCA has 3000km ferry range at altitude.



Do not wake up from your dream.


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## ANPP

hurt said:


> Do you know what is *Air-to-surface missile?
> 
> 
> 
> Do not wake up from your dream.



When you dont no anything than you dive in thread?


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## Hellraiser007



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## hurt

ANPP said:


> When you dont no anything than you dive in thread?



You have aircraft of your own design.
congratulation.

But it basic design idea realy has fallen behind the times.
You already have the experience of design,why not design a better one.


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## muse

Even if LCA never goes in to mass production, It must be a huge success and a great experience for the Indian aviation industry, It must be, at least to my thinking, a test bed for a variety of manufacturing process and of course the engine development is a giant leap in capability

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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Auto ramp takeoff planned for NLCA*

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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> *Auto ramp takeoff planned for NLCA*



The cheif test pilot of the N-LCA program had mentioned they's like to develop such a mode for the N-LCA in the AI seminar 2011.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Abingdonboy said:


> The cheif test pilot of the N-LCA program had mentioned they's like to develop such a mode for the N-LCA in the AI seminar 2011.



This is from aero india 2013 seminar, presenter Mr Shyam Chetty, Director, NAL, CSIR. He said that they will be shortly testing the NLCA on the sea based ramp test facility.


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## ANPP

hurt said:


> You have aircraft of your own design.
> congratulation.
> 
> But it basic design idea realy has fallen behind the times.
> You already have the experience of design,why not design a better one.



Near heard about AMCA??


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## hurt

ANPP said:


> Near heard about AMCA??



Give you a word&#12290;



> Make sure that your objectives are realistic and do not try for the impossible.



If not ,it should become LCA #2


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## Black Widow

hurt said:


> Give you a word&#12290;
> 
> 
> 
> If not ,it should become LCA #2





Saw ur all posts in this thread. I am unable to get your motive.. The LCA Datas are available on net/thread. Go and read urself.

If you have specific query please go ahead..

This is a sticky thread for LCA, Please read PDF rules, Trolling in sticky thread is* punishable offence*. 

For Kaveri engine visit this thread : http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/49565-kaveri-engine-project-update-25.html
For LCA info: Visit this thread. http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-466.html
For AMCA visit this thread: AMCA offical thrd

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## kam83

muse said:


> Even if LCA never goes in to mass production, It must be a huge success and a great experience for the Indian aviation industry, It must be, at least to my thinking, a test bed for a variety of manufacturing process and of course the engine development is a giant leap in capability



Atlast a real Think Tank...respect sir


----------



## khatarnak gunda

hurt said:


> You have aircraft of your own design.
> congratulation.
> 
> But it basic design idea realy has fallen behind the times.
> You already have the experience of design,why not design a better one.



the design of tejas has not fallen behind times dear. the design is called a delta design for your ready reference. we are still using mirages, in fact upgrading them and yes they are one of the best fighters in IAF inventory.

for the other part,
many people laugh at india by saying that she has yet to finish tejas project and started amca. but it is very important to understand that every aircraft project carries certain stages. and aircraft design is the first one.

the design team at ADA has completed working on mark1 design and redesign it to mark2 level requires very less manpower from the design team. what other team members should do untill the series production stage commence? should they be idle? should they be a sitting duck? these design team members are now deployed for AMCA design.


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## hurt

khatarnak gunda said:


> the design of tejas has not fallen behind times dear. the design is called a delta design for your ready reference. we are still using mirages, in fact upgrading them and yes they are one of the best fighters in IAF inventory.



Point defense fighter = fallen behind times


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

hurt said:


> Do you know what is *Air-to-surface missile?
> 
> 
> 
> Do not wake up from your dream.



now what , you got shock, he is write , 

F-16: 
Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs (=1800Kg Payload)
Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LCA : Combat radius: 300 km[citation needed] (186 miles)
Ferry range: 3,000 km[93] (1,840 mi)
HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JFT: Combat radius: 1,352 km[17] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM[9])
CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia quoted figures from official sites, it look like JF-17 beat F-16 also  Interesting part is both Chinese and PAK claim different loaded weight of same plane.

Its like someone . something to hide...... Chinese are best in figures


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## Bratva

Alfa-Fighter said:


> now what , you got shock, he is write ,
> 
> F-16:
> Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs (=1800Kg Payload)
> Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> LCA : Combat radius: 300 km[citation needed] (186 miles)
> Ferry range: 3,000 km[93] (1,840 mi)
> HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> JFT: Combat radius: 1,352 km[17] (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM[9])
> CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Wikipedia quoted figures from official sites, it look like JF-17 beat F-16 also  Interesting part is both Chinese and PAK claim different loaded weight of same plane.
> 
> Its like someone . something to hide...... Chinese are best in figures



someone who relies on wikipedia instead of latest updates coming out from china and Pakistan is a sheer fool. Pakistani website is not updated since 2 years. Chinese figures are the most updated and revised because of the recent 200 percent load and stress tests performed on JF-17 to see how much it can carry the load. The one who is handling the Pakistani official site is a total dumb.



Alfa-Fighter said:


> now what , you got shock, he is write ,
> 
> F-16:
> Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs (=1800Kg Payload)
> Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> LCA : Combat radius: 300 km[citation needed] (186 miles)
> Ferry range: 3,000 km[93] (1,840 mi)
> HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> JFT: Combat radius: 1,352 km[17] (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM[9])
> CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Wikipedia quoted figures from official sites, it look like JF-17 beat F-16 also  Interesting part is both Chinese and PAK claim different loaded weight of same plane.
> 
> Its like someone . something to hide...... Chinese are best in figures



someone who relies on wikipedia instead of latest updates coming out from china and Pakistan is a sheer fool. Pakistani website is not updated since 2 years. Chinese figures are the most updated and revised because of the recent 200 percent load and stress tests performed on JF-17 to see how much it can carry the load. The one who is handling the Pakistani official site is a total dumb.


----------



## RPK

*'LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015' | Business Standard*


The much-delayed indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas aircraft is expected to be ready for induction into operational service by 2015, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said today.

Talking to reporters, *the IAF chief said the indigenous aircraft will have to be modified further for operating in high-altitude areas as recently during trials in Leh, its engine "did not work".*

"By my estimate it (the Initial Operational Clearance II) should be by the end of this year and the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) should take another year-and-half more," he said on the sidelines of a seminar.

The FOC is the final nod required before an aircraft is considered to be ready for operational deployment in an air force. While the IOC I of the LCA Tejas was completed two years ago, but the FOC date has been postponed due to certain issues.
Browne said delays do take place in a development project such as the LCA. *"Recently we went for high-altitude trials. The engine (of LCA) did not work at that altitude because it is a different cup of tea. Even the Su-30, when it was taken to Leh, it had to be modified. So, the LCA will have to be modified. It has to do the retrials," he said.*

The IAF chief said the aircraft will take part in the exercise 'Ironfist', which will be held at Pokharan in Rajasthan on February 22.

"There it will be firing the R-73 missile along with laser guided bombs etc. But a lot more work is still required," he said.

Earlier at an international seminar here, DRDO chief V K Saraswat said the LCA had completed 2,000 test flights.

At the same seminar, Browne said the IAF is planning to induct around 350-400 aircraft in the 12th Defence Plan period.

The air force is planning to procure more than 200 fighter aircraft including the 126 Rafale medium-multirole combat aircraft, over 40 Su-30MKIs, several types of transport aircraft and various choppers, he said.

Listing the major modernisation milestones achieved by the air force, he said the IAF signed 325 contract worth Rs 1.52 lakh crore for modernising the force.

"Of these, 217 contracts worth around Rs 84,000 crore have been signed with Indian companies," the IAF chief said.

In 2013-14, the IAF is planning to sign several deals including one for 126 Rafale aircraft, additional six C-130J Super Hercules and several chopper contracts for attack and heavy-lift category, he said.

On the future requirements of the force, he said advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, electronic warfare suites and unmanned combat aerial vehicles were the need of the force in the future.

The IAF chief said testing facilities of DRDO and defence PSUs should be opened up for private sector as they are national assets.

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## trident2010

Hope this high altitude engine modification don't take 5 more years !!


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## Black Widow

hurt said:


> Point defense fighter = fallen behind times





 Please handle this guy.. He is going off limits..


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## IND151

&#8216;LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015 | idrw.org


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Hope this high altitude engine modification don't take 5 more years !!



The same modifications needed to be done for most of the MMRCAs, during the trials at Leh but were simple, so no need to expect long delays especially since GE might to them.


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## Abingdonboy

trident2010 said:


> Hope this high altitude engine modification don't take 5 more years !!



This the responsibility of GE, you'd better expect that (if this news is true) GE will get their shyt together and have a suitable solution VERY quickly otherwise they can kiss goodbye to 100s of millions of USD as HAL cancels the order for 100s or engines for MK.1 and MK.2 and the potential for any future such orders. 


The ball is squarely in GE's court- they have not delivered on their promises.

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## mridul

If "Failures are the pillars of success"...I think DRDO and HAL has only pillars in their name...there is no roof, wall, doors and windows in their house. The LCA project has made us a laughing stock...an object of ridicule. If the Indian Air Force is happy with foreign fighters let them be...scrap LCA-MK1...and proceed....looking at the current scenario LCA-MK-1 will be an outdated fighter the day it gets full clearance.


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> The same modifications needed to be done for most of the MMRCAs, during the trials at Leh but were simple, so no need to expect long delays especially since GE might to them.


*@sancho*
if LCA MK-1 base in south then why IAF want desi a/c pass this test and i read that mk-1 is not use in war, and why they are not Ist induct this plane Ist and then make modification block wise mk-2 ......


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> *@sancho*
> if LCA MK-1 base in south then why IAF want desi a/c pass this test and i read that mk-1 is not use in war, and why they are not Ist induct this plane Ist and then make modification block wise mk-2 ......



Mk1 does not fullfil IAFs requirements wrt to flight performance, that however doesn't make it a bad fighter. In this case precision strike capability is the important point, which already is available and they simply might want to test and modify now, so that it could be used in war time there too. Not to mention that IAF tests all aircrafts in all areas, no matter where they will be placed (A330MRTT for example, which seems to be placed in the east).


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

mafiya said:


> someone who relies on wikipedia instead of latest updates coming out from china and Pakistan is a sheer fool. Pakistani website is not updated since 2 years. Chinese figures are the most updated and revised because of the recent 200 percent load and stress tests performed on JF-17 to see how much it can carry the load. The one who is handling the Pakistani official site is a total dumb.



you means to say , PAF /PAK defence ministry is fool Dumb. ISPR etc.... you know you get shot in PAK, if you say against any govt. , Can you show any official Chinese site claiming Ferry range and Combat load. 

World wide , combat radius is less then half of the ferry range because of load, but in case of Chinese plane , ferry range and combat range is same. break all lows of physics.

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## Abingdonboy




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## Hellraiser007

*Advanced Systems Improve Tejas Fighting Skills
*
As the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been in the making for much too long, but despite the delays, the aircraft that slowly moves toward the finish line is born old. If and when it is announced fully mission capable by next year, Tejas will represent a mid-1990s generation platform, but will be ready to deploy with combat systems of the 21st century.

This has not come by choice  the Indian Government and research establishments insisted for decades that the LCA as other indigenous weapon systems should be 100 percent Indian designed and made. This attitude has stumbled the project for years, as Indian R&D centers were coping with knowledge gaps, technological issues or manufacturing capabilities. After three decades, as the aircraft is finally pacing toward the coveted (and much delayed) full operational capability status, it is clear that many of its subsystems are not domestic, and many others may be built in India but not Indian designed.

Assuming the Astra missile currently developed for the aircraft not meet the full flight envelope performance goals, the IAF and Indian Naval Aviation are integrating the Derby and Python 5 missiles on the aircraft, along with Russian R73 that was slated for the aircraft from the beginning, to meet the required full-operational capabilities level for the fighter. These weapons will be needed primarily to meet the Indian Navy requirement for carrier air defense, as the LCA will begin to replace the Sea Harriers that currently carry those missions with these weapons.

The LCA will also carry the EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar developed by IAI Elta. This agile radar, along with the DASH-3 helmet mounted display sight from Elbit Systems will enable a Tejas pilot to acquire targets at all combat ranges and engage them in full sphere, shooting the missiles by merely looking at the target, without having to maneuver the LCA toward the target, thus making the Tejas much more potent than the sum of its aerodynamic capabilities offer. In fact, such smart combat systems could provide the LCAs just that amount of survivability it needs to avoid trouble, safely carry out its mission and even win a dogfight if the situation gets ugly.

The aircraft will also be carrying the Litening targeting pod, enabling the LCA to deploy precision guided weapons of various types  from laser guided, to GPS or EO guided weapons.

EL/M2052 AESA radar to be integrated in the LCA














Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...rove-tejas-fighting-skills.html#ixzz2K8xIlZAE

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## trident2010

I haven't seen LCA doing any advanced maneuvers. Do they plan to show any thing better than loops or inverted fly pass with Tejas?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


>



Finally some more infos on the EWS and it shows that we doing well in the EW field, beeing able to develop latest digital RWR with geolocation capability is great.


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## Mitro

* Prasun K. Sengupta said...
To MRIDUL BARUAH: Firstly, kindly note that Tejas Mk1&#8217;s LSP-7 is being subjected to right now are still airworthiness certification flight-tests (after which the aircraft&#8217;s technical & maintenance manuals will be drafted), all of which is CEMILAC's & not the IAF's responsibility. Once the CofA is awarded by CEMILAC, the LSP-7 & in future the LSP-8 will be heading to Gwalior where the IAF&#8217;s Tactics & Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) will use these two aircraft as well as the first 20 SP-series aircraft (to be delivered by late 2015) for drafting the aircraft&#8217;s operational usage manuals for air combat & precision ground-strike. ONLY AFTER this is completed by 2017 will the IOC phase begin. IOC can&#8217;t even commence unless all the four manuals I&#8217;ve mentioned above are ready for dessimination. IOC & FOC are all about an aircraft's aircrew & ground crew & related ground-based squadron-level MRO facilities acquiring a degree of proficiency that will enable the aircraft to be employed in wartime on a sustained basis. Therefore, all talk of IOC-1/2/3/4 etc & FOC is highly premature to even talk about at this stage, something which the 'desi' journalists & the 'desi' Defence Minister of the MoD as well as the IAF&#8217;s CAS ought to understand & stop taking the gullible public for a ride to nowhere. As for CofA-related flight-tests in Leh, even the MiG-21 Bison could not pass them, only the MiG-29B & Su-30MKI could due to their higher-thrust turbofans. The Tejas Mk2 powered by GE-built F414 turbofan will be able to succeed in taking off from & landing in Leh for sure. *



Prasun K. Sengupta said...
To ARJUN: The maximum range of BrahMos-2 will be 300km as of now. Since is being developed as a JV with Russia, the question of bypassing Russia for the sake of increasing the missile&#8217;s range envelope doesn&#8217;t arise. For GPS-based navigation there are two types of accuracy-based codes that are available: the civilian C-code where high-level accuracy is not required, while the Py-code is encrypted & offers the highest level of accuracy. GAGAN will be fully operational by 2014. The LCH will be vulnerable to MANPADS if the missile is launched from higher altitudes, as was done by the Stingers in both Afghanistan & Kargil.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

trident2010 said:


> I haven't seen LCA doing any advanced maneuvers. Do they plan to show any thing better than loops or inverted fly pass with Tejas?



What do you expect? Its a light fighter, don't compare with sukhoi or rafale. Also, currently there is no dedicated LCA plane for aerobatics. LSPs maneuvers are restricted by in built care free hadling features in the FBW FCS. World over, Aerobatics maneuvers are performed by dedicated planes with their FBWs tweaked that allows pilots to perform stunts that wont be normally allowed by FCS.

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## trident2010

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> What do you expect? Its a light fighter, don't compare with sukhoi or rafale. Also, currently there is no dedicated LCA plane for aerobatics. LSPs maneuvers are restricted by in built care free hadling features in the FBW FCS. World over, Aerobatics maneuvers are performed by dedicated planes with their FBWs tweaked that allows pilots to perform stunts that wont be normally allowed by FCS.



I expect Tejas to perform maneuvers what other contemporary fighters at same weight category performs. If Mig-21 can do advance maneuvers then why not Tejas?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

trident2010 said:


> I expect Tejas to perform maneuvers what other contemporary fighters at same weight category performs. If Mig-21 can do advance maneuvers then why not Tejas?



What advance maneuvers?


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## mridul

Czar786 said:


> * Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> To MRIDUL BARUAH: Firstly, kindly note that Tejas Mk1s LSP-7 is being subjected to right now are still airworthiness certification flight-tests (after which the aircrafts technical & maintenance manuals will be drafted), all of which is CEMILAC's & not the IAF's responsibility. Once the CofA is awarded by CEMILAC, the LSP-7 & in future the LSP-8 will be heading to Gwalior where the IAFs Tactics & Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) will use these two aircraft as well as the first 20 SP-series aircraft (to be delivered by late 2015) for drafting the aircrafts operational usage manuals for air combat & precision ground-strike. ONLY AFTER this is completed by 2017 will the IOC phase begin. IOC cant even commence unless all the four manuals Ive mentioned above are ready for dessimination. IOC & FOC are all about an aircraft's aircrew & ground crew & related ground-based squadron-level MRO facilities acquiring a degree of proficiency that will enable the aircraft to be employed in wartime on a sustained basis. Therefore, all talk of IOC-1/2/3/4 etc & FOC is highly premature to even talk about at this stage, something which the 'desi' journalists & the 'desi' Defence Minister of the MoD as well as the IAFs CAS ought to understand & stop taking the gullible public for a ride to nowhere. As for CofA-related flight-tests in Leh, even the MiG-21 Bison could not pass them, only the MiG-29B & Su-30MKI could due to their higher-thrust turbofans. The Tejas Mk2 powered by GE-built F414 turbofan will be able to succeed in taking off from & landing in Leh for sure. *
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> To ARJUN: The maximum range of BrahMos-2 will be 300km as of now. Since is being developed as a JV with Russia, the question of bypassing Russia for the sake of increasing the missiles range envelope doesnt arise. For GPS-based navigation there are two types of accuracy-based codes that are available: the civilian C-code where high-level accuracy is not required, while the Py-code is encrypted & offers the highest level of accuracy. GAGAN will be fully operational by 2014. The LCH will be vulnerable to MANPADS if the missile is launched from higher altitudes, as was done by the Stingers in both Afghanistan & Kargil.



Well well well....Mr.Czar...it was Prasun Sengupta answering my questions.


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## Black Widow

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> What advance maneuvers?





He mean pugachev Kobra..  
@trident2010: LCA can perform all manuver what an advance jet can.

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## cloud_9

Already posted.


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## rockstarIN

There is only one news which is saying LCA will get 2052 AESA, there is no other confirmations.


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## trident2010

Black Widow said:


> He mean pugachev Kobra..
> @trident2010: LCA can perform all manuver what an advance jet can.



I hope it could but they never shown it in public.


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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> He mean pugachev Kobra..
> @trident2010: LCA can perform all manuver what an advance jet can.



Pugachev Kobra ....... Is really LCA capable of that ???


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## trident2010

Sergi said:


> Pugachev Kobra ....... Is really LCA capable of that ???



This is I want to know, what moves it can do?


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## Sergi

trident2010 said:


> This is I want to know, what moves it can do?



So am I 

Pugachev's Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This one of the coolest thing. But I think it required high thrust to weight ratio and thrust vectoring. I doubt LCA could do that. So asked. I don't know either


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## farhan_9909

will someone please post me the video of lca recent performance?


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## Mitro

hey hey hey its very small world ,i like prasun blog i am always their try to learn from him.



mridul said:


> Well well well....Mr.Czar...it was Prasun Sengupta answering my questions.


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## BlueDot_in_Space




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## BlueDot_in_Space

*NLCA auto ramp mode description (audio and video out of sync) (one of many steps towards unmanned operations)*






*About LCA wake testing that is currently underway *


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## sudhir007

Livefist: LCA Tejas Sports Python & Derby










India's LCA Tejas twin-seat trainer mock-up on display at Aero India 2013 for the first time shows it alongside a Rafael Python-5 IR short-range air-to-air missile and a Rafael Derby BVRAAM. The latter is a stopgap in the event that the Astra isn't delivered on time, and also for testing requirements. Also on the mockup are the R-73 and the Astra.

Journalist Tamir Eshel over at Defense Update reports, "Assuming the Astra missile currently developed for the aircraft not meet the full flight envelope performance goals, the IAF and Indian Naval Aviation are integrating the Derby and Python 5 missiles on the aircraft, along with Russian R73 that was slated for the aircraft from the beginning, to meet the required full-operational capabilities level for the fighter. These weapons will be needed primarily to meet the Indian Navy requirement for carrier air defense, as the LCA will begin to replace the Sea Harriers that currently carry those missions with these weapons."


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## IND151

wrong thread


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## Arav_Rana

Can you guys tell me that till now how many missiles ( A2A,A2G etc ) have been integrated on LCA. 
Does LCA has flare . I didn't see any pic of firing flares.

Thanks In advance.


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## Black Widow

arav said:


> Can you guys tell me that till now how many missiles ( A2A,A2G etc ) have been integrated on LCA.
> Does LCA has flare . I didn't see any pic of firing flares.
> 
> Thanks In advance.




Flare is small thing, I am sure it will be there in LCA or It will added later, Without it IAF will not take LCA. 

R73 : Missile tested with LCA (A2A)
Unguided bomb : tested in CHitradurga testing range Karnataka.
Guided bomb: I think it is tested..

Weapons can be integrated later as well.. Few important testing..
1. Night capability tested, I personally have seen LCA taking off at 7:30 PM and landing sometime near 8:00 PM.
2. Flight flutter test,
3. Summer trial.
4. Goa test.
5. AoA test
6. High altitude test.
7. Supersonic test etc...

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## GURU DUTT

Black Widow said:


> Flare is small thing, I am sure it will be there in LCA or It will added later, Without it IAF will not take LCA.
> 
> *R73 : Missile tested with LCA (A2A)
> Unguided bomb : tested in CHitradurga testing range Karnataka.
> Guided bomb: I think it is tested..*
> 
> Weapons can be integrated later as well.. Few important testing..
> 1. Night capability tested, I personally have seen LCA taking off at 7:30 PM and landing sometime near 8:00 PM.
> 2. Flight flutter test,
> 3. Summer trial.
> 4. Goa test.
> 5. AoA test
> 6. High altitude test.
> 7. Supersonic test etc...



well acording to my sources Python 5 and Derby are also integrated

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## mridul

Black Widow said:


> He mean pugachev Kobra..
> @trident2010: LCA can perform all manuver what an advance jet can.



To perform Cobra...a thrust vectored engine...so expecting Cobra from Tejas would be asking for too much.


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## The A-5

mridul said:


> To perform Cobra...a thrust vectored engine...so expecting Cobra from Tejas would be asking for too much.



Did Su-27 had a TVC engine when it first performed Cobra flown by Pugachev in Paris Air Show many decades
ago?


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## mridul

The A-5 said:


> Did Su-27 had a TVC engine when it first performed Cobra flown by Pugachev in Paris Air Show many decades
> ago?



Do you really want to compare Tejas with Su-27 .... well I am not sure whether it had a TVC when Su-27 did its first cobra...but I know that almost all fighters with that capability are powered with TVC engine.


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## RPK

*LCA simulator ready
*

For visitors wanting an up-close, personal hands-on feel of the country&#8217;s LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that dazzles the sky, there awaits the simulator, on ground, to provide them that enthralling experience. 

Aero India 2013 has three simulators set up by Russia, France and India; two though will be closed for the general public. The only simulator accessible is Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. 

The simulator, starved of power during the first three days, is finally up and running. &#8220;The situation was bad with organisers having not supplied power on the initial two days. We are now seeing huge crowds lining up to get a feel of the actual LCA,&#8221; said a DRDO official. 

The DRDO has now decided to provide a three-minute &#8220;experience&#8221; of Tejas to the public. &#8220;The simulation, from takeoff to landing, is close to 15 minutes. But with swelling crowds, we have cut it down to two to three minutes,&#8221; the official explained. Those that had the opportunity were thrilled at the experience.

Russian manufacturers of MiGs are shutting down their simulator due to &#8216;lack of space&#8217;. &#8220;It&#8217;s an expensive machinery. We do not want to take chances by opening it to the public,&#8221; said United Aircraft Corporation staffer. 

Rafael Advanced Defence Systems & IAI, have a simulator for SPIKE missiles. However, a Rafael staffer said they may be shutting it down as it was meant only for experts to give them a feel of spike missiles loaded onto the helicopters.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## trident2010

Water Car Engineer said:


>




Lovely !!


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## faithfulguy

This is by far the longest thread in PAF. as this is the longest airplane project in human history.


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## 3Idiots

faithfulguy said:


> This is by far the longest thread in PAF. as this is the longest airplane project in human history.



Dear.. you are confounded... and hallucinating too much !!

PAF stands for Pakistan Air Force. 

And Indians dominate this forum in terms of numbers .. so what's new?


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## kurup

faithfulguy said:


> This is by far the longest thread in PAF. as this is the longest airplane project in human history.



Nope , J10 by far decorates that crown .Almost took 40 years in developement.


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## faithfulguy

kurup said:


> Nope , J10 by far decorates that crown .Almost took 40 years in developement.



And of course, you have proof or its something you make up again to make yourself feel better about LCA. Stop lying about others to make yourself feel better. Its ok to be pissed off at the development of LCA.


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## INDIAISM

faithfulguy said:


> And of course, you have proof or its something you make up again to make yourself feel better about LCA. Stop lying about others to make yourself feel better. Its ok to be pissed off at the development of LCA.


Dude i think you should go through the J10 programe or 4th Gen jet program..Started as j9 fighter jet project in 1969 and they abonded that prject only to restart it as J10 project....First flight 1998....

Chineese have habbit of changing the names of the project like Jf17 started as Super7 project in 1988...

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## faithfulguy

INDIAISM said:


> Dude i think you should go through the J10 programe or 4th Gen jet program..Started as j9 fighter jet project in 1969 and they abonded that prject only to restart it as J10 project....First flight 1998....
> 
> Chineese have habbit of changing the names of the project like Jf17 started as Super7 project in 1988...



As far as I read, I do not see how is J9 related to J-10. They looked like totally different planes to me. and there is a gap of time between the development of the two project But as I do not know much I'll let the Chinese guys defend their weapon systems. But isn't LCA a continuous project since the 80s?


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## 3Idiots

faithfulguy said:


> As far as I read, I do not see how is J9 related to J-10. They looked like totally different planes to me. and there is a gap of time between the development of the two project But as I do not know much I'll let the Chinese guys defend their weapon systems. But isn't LCA a continuous project since the 80s?



J-10 is more comparable to Mig-21.... only china got it in 2000s. 

LCA is ranked closer to comtemporary weapons systems.

Don't you compare you $hitty J-10 here... for your own good.


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## Mani2020

3Idiots said:


> J-10 is more comparable to Mig-21.... only china got it in 2000s.
> 
> LCA is ranked closer to comtemporary weapons systems.
> 
> Don't you compare you $hitty J-10 here... for your own good.



your name defines your post .......

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## 3Idiots

Mani2020 said:


> your name defines your post .......



Wisdom isn't flaunted ... and humility and greatness go together.

Do you really believe "Pakistan" is "Pak" at all??.. laced with blood of Osama bin laden??

Anyway, there are quite a few bollywood fans around the world ... Gee.. I'm one.

And I do love "3 Idiots"


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## trident2010

^^^ Take it easy mate. All are friends here. Personal attacks results in ban. Ignore the trolls, its difficult but I am also learning not to reply them


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## 帅的一匹

mridul said:


> Do you really want to compare Tejas with Su-27 .... well I am not sure whether it had a TVC when Su-27 did its first cobra...but I know that almost all fighters with that capability are powered with TVC engine.



J10A perform Cobra many times with Al31f, it's excellent aerodynamic not TVC.


----------



## karan.1970

wanglaokan said:


> J10A perform Cobra many times with Al31f, it's excellent aerodynamic not TVC.



any video ? That would be awesome to see..


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## trident2010

wanglaokan said:


> J10A perform Cobra many times with Al31f, it's excellent aerodynamic not TVC.



Yes, it is not important to have a TVC for performing cobra, its aerodynamics and engine thrust.

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## IND151



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## subincb

AI update:
Time required for changing LCA engine right now is 1 to 1.5 hour but BEML is making the right trolley and lift for ADA which will make engine remove and refit time to be less than 20 minutes with all connectors removal etc etc.

Weight reduction program for LCA mark-1 is complete.

As per ADA many technologies developed for LCA are finding place in SU30, LCH, IJT etc.

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## sancho

subincb said:


> AI update:
> Time required for changing LCA engine right now is 1 to 1.5 hour but BEML is making the right trolley and lift for ADA which will make engine remove and refit time to be less than 20 minutes with all connectors removal etc etc.
> 
> *Weight reduction program for LCA mark-1 is complete.*
> 
> As per ADA many technologies developed for LCA are finding place in SU30, LCH, IJT etc.



So what is the final weight?


----------



## rockstarIN

Meanwhile

LCA-Tejas has completed 2006 Test Flights Successfully. (05-Feb-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-349,LSP1-74,LSP2-242,PV5-36,LSP3-96,LSP4-61,LSP5-124,LSP7-18,NP1-4)


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## dearone4u_22

2000 test flight completed

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## Storm Force

THIS PLANE MADE ITS MAIDEN FLIGHT IN 2001 

It has taken 12 years to make 2000 flights

BY THE TIME FOC is made in 2015 THE TIME LAG BETWEEN FIRST FLGHT AND FOC. MUST BE A WORLD RECORD ...

In the mean time JF17 made its maiden flight in 2003 AND 10 YEARS later there are 3 FULL combat sqds in service.

MORE embarressing even IRAN have unveiled a semi stealth fighter and they have HAD NO foreign input or assistancve from USA israel or russia. like india could and should have taken for LCA

LCA wil be a GREAT effort espcially MK2 but 15 years TOO LATE


----------



## kurup

faithfulguy said:


> And of course, you have proof or its something you make up again to make yourself feel better about LCA. Stop lying about others to make yourself feel better. Its ok to be pissed off at the development of LCA.



The only one pissed off is you .
By changing name of the project every time you hit a roadblock , you may be able to fool your countrymen but not others.
Read about J9 , super7 , super sabre projects and tell us who is lying to feel better.............


----------



## kurup

faithfulguy said:


> As far as I read, I do not see how is J9 related to J-10. They looked like totally different planes to me. and there is a gap of time between the development of the two project But as I do not know much I'll let the Chinese guys defend their weapon systems. But isn't LCA a continuous project since the 80s?



The actual developement of Tejas started in 90s and no it was not a continous project and hit roadblocks many times with sanctions and all.


----------



## faithfulguy

Storm Force said:


> THIS PLANE MADE ITS MAIDEN FLIGHT IN 2001
> 
> It has taken 12 years to make 2000 flights
> 
> BY THE TIME FOC is made in 2015 THE TIME LAG BETWEEN FIRST FLGHT AND FOC. MUST BE A WORLD RECORD ...
> 
> In the mean time JF17 made its maiden flight in 2003 AND 10 YEARS later there are 3 FULL combat sqds in service.
> 
> MORE embarressing even IRAN have unveiled a semi stealth fighter and they have HAD NO foreign input or assistancve from USA israel or russia. like india could and should have taken for LCA
> 
> LCA wil be a GREAT effort espcially MK2 but 15 years TOO LATE



Thanks for pointing this out as an India, when I tried it, I was attacked mercilessly. The Indians have double standards.


----------



## subincb

sancho said:


> So what is the final weight?



Sorry I was busy trying to get something about what ADA was developing so forgot to ask. He was showing me some LRU and products they used for reducing weight. Mark 2 parts will be lighter. They were sheding off some weight from the gearbox and Jet fuel starter version 2, Intially plans were to make reliable stuff now since that is achieved they want to shed of and reduce the casting thickness to what is required in case of AMAGB.

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## Alfa-Fighter

faithfulguy said:


> Thanks for pointing this out as an India, when I tried it, I was attacked mercilessly. The Indians have double standards.



Yes especially when you asked to comment about china's failure ....BTW, let Iran shows the clear video/

In-fact IRAN plane also embarrassment CHINA that it bring more advance plane then china can think or built .  which no one want to tell because he knows the reason.


----------



## faithfulguy

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Yes especially when you asked to comment about china's failure ....BTW, let Iran shows the clear video/
> 
> In-fact IRAN plane also embarrassment CHINA that it bring more advance plane then china can think or built .  which no one want to tell because he knows the reason.



Are you sure you are responding to the right person? I don't know what the heck you are talking about.


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## INDIAISM

Storm Force said:


> THIS PLANE MADE ITS MAIDEN FLIGHT IN 2001
> 
> It has taken 12 years to make 2000 flights
> 
> BY THE TIME FOC is made in 2015 THE TIME LAG BETWEEN FIRST FLGHT AND FOC. MUST BE A WORLD RECORD ...
> 
> In the mean time JF17 made its maiden flight in 2003 AND 10 YEARS later there are 3 FULL combat sqds in service.
> 
> MORE embarressing even IRAN have unveiled a semi stealth fighter and they have HAD NO foreign input or assistancve from USA israel or russia. like india could and should have taken for LCA
> 
> LCA wil be a GREAT effort espcially MK2 but 15 years TOO LATE


What you forgot to mention here is that both Pakistan and Iran don't have any other option....On the other hand India has many other option...


----------



## sancho

subincb said:


> Sorry I was busy trying to get something about what ADA was developing so forgot to ask. He was showing me some LRU and products they used for reducing weight. *Mark 2 parts will be lighter.* They were sheding off some weight from the gearbox and Jet fuel starter version 2, Intially plans were to make reliable stuff now since that is achieved they want to shed of and reduce the casting thickness to what is required in case of AMAGB.



I believe it when I see it, since they are adding weight on the other sight too, so beeing lighter that MK1 must mean credible weight reductions and I am interested to see how that might work.

Anyway, thanks for the infos!

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## sudhir007

LCA NP-1 all set to Join Back Test Program | idrw.org

NP-1 after its first flight on 27 April 2012 and with only 4 flight to it credit was pulled out to carry further Integration of systems to carry out trails from aircraft carrier, according to sources close to idrw.org NP-1 will re-join test flights in August and will shift to Goa by year end , Shore-Based Test Facility (SBTF) is nearing completion. Built at the Naval Air Station, INS Hansa in Goa, the facility would replicate as a static model of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard.

NP-1 carried out only basics flight tests and was pulled out of test flight , Navy already has ordered 8 LCA Navy based on present MK-1 configuration , Four of them will be Trainer variant and 4 Single seat variant , ADA is working on NP-2 which will be single seat aircraft and first flight is expected by year end .

LCA Navy MK-1 will be used to Train pilots and also for other test on Shore-Based Test Facility (SBTF).LCA Navy MK-1 is powered by GE-404 engine , But Navy will only use MK-2 variant which will be powered by GE-414 engines for operations from aircraft carriers . Navy has firm orders for 42 MK-2 aircrafts to be operated from IAC-1 and IAC-2


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## fatman17

*India's Tejas IOC suffers yet more delays*

Conclusive initial operational clearance (IOC) for India's locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been further deferred to the end of the year, postponing its active squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) by nearly a decade to 2015 if not beyond. At Aero India Defence

Defence Weekly

_oops!_


----------



## RPK

*LCA Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India*


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## trident2010

faithfulguy said:


> Thanks for pointing this out as an India, when I tried it, I was attacked mercilessly. The Indians have double standards.



The thing is, everyone knows about the problems associated and now trying to rectify the mistakes made in the past. Due to the huge magnitude of the LCA project, some past decision mistakes which we are now trying to correct delaying the project.

On the other hand, with LCA project India has learned a lot and by time they are improving. You always attack the Indian projects with same offensive, non-stop. It gives us the impression that you are not from neutral Taiwan/US but one of our immediate neighbour doing routine trolling. What is your native nation, you only know it. But if you come up with more balance observations w.r.t. Indian projects/situations, you will find people will hear you more attentively.


----------



## subincb

sancho said:


> I believe it when I see it, since they are adding weight on the other sight too, so beeing lighter that MK1 must mean credible weight reductions and I am interested to see how that might work.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the infos!



The parts are going to be lighter not the whole plane. Its a bigger plane so definitely heavier but many things are going for version 2 in LCA-2. They have chose LCA-MarkII only cos there was no ending of upgrading things every day as per ADA. so they decided to freeze and build what is coming newer in new plane. Don't expect huge difference in LCA Mark-II other than AESA and engine. its never gonna be Rafael or MKI in anything. The plan is to close the gap by AMCA.


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## sancho

subincb said:


> Don't expect huge difference in LCA Mark-II other than AESA and engine. its never gonna be Rafael or MKI in anything.



I don't, infact the I would prefer less changes, only modifications to meet the initial goals and a fast induction. That's why I don't like the N-LCA development, since it makes the whole LCA project only more complicated.


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## IndianTiger

Indian Air Force wants to fill gas which will be created by phasing out Mig21, so LCA will be a great bird for that.


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## MST

sancho said:


> I don't, infact the I would prefer less changes, only modifications to meet the initial goals and a fast induction. *That's why I don't like the N-LCA development, *since it makes the whole LCA project only more complicated.



I feel that in a way it is good they went for N-LCA. It is important to gain experience to develop naval version. Hopefully next versions (MK II and AMCA) can utilize the experience of MK I (and also hopefully lessons will be learned from screw ups). Though we can argue that ADA may have bitten more than it can chew.


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## trident2010

MST said:


> I feel that in a way it is good they went for N-LCA. It is important to gain experience to develop naval version. Hopefully next versions (MK II and AMCA) can utilize the experience of MK I (and also hopefully lessons will be learned from screw ups). Though we can argue that ADA may have bitten more than it can chew.



Such a large projects are not started just to get an experience but to have a production of working prototype. If we cannot achieve 100% goals in the planned time frame then there is no need to waste the resources in it. Waste of time and money knowingly is not a good practice.


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## MST

trident2010 said:


> Such a large projects are not started just to get an experience but to have a production of working prototype. *If we cannot achieve 100% goals in the planned time frame* then there is no need to waste the resources in it. Waste of time and money knowingly is not a good practice.



Well will you say the same thing about ALH Dhruv?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

trident2010 said:


> Such a large projects are not started just to get an experience but to have a production of working prototype. If we cannot achieve 100% goals in the planned time frame then there is no need to waste the resources in it. Waste of time and money knowingly is not a good practice.



So the long list of experimental projects that NASA, lockheed martin, northrop etc did comes into the category of waste of time and money? Many western fighters did not achieve their 100% goals when they were inducted, still they got inducted and with time achieved 100% goals.


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## sancho

MST said:


> I feel that in a way it is good they went for N-LCA. *It is important to gain experience to develop naval version*. Hopefully next versions (MK II and AMCA) can utilize the experience of MK I (and also hopefully lessons will be learned from screw ups). Though we can argue that ADA may have bitten more than it can chew.



As I often explain, you don't need a fully fledged fighter program to gain experince, that's what tech demo programs are for. I would have nothing against N-LCA, if we keep it at 5 to 10 x N-LCA MK1 prototypes, just to gain experience in navalising a fighter, we could even test it at shore based STOBAR facilities. But all the changes in LCA MK2, only to fit the requirements of IN too, caused further delays in the general LCA project and that should have been avoided.


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## MST

sancho said:


> As I often explain, you don't need a fully fledged fighter program to gain experince, that's what tech demo programs are for. I would have nothing against N-LCA, if we keep it at 5 to 10 x N-LCA MK1 prototypes, just to gain experience in navalising a fighter, we could even test it at shore based STOBAR facilities. But all the changes in LCA MK2, only to fit the requirements of IN too, caused further delays in the general LCA project and that should have been avoided.



No doubt in an ideal world the N-LCA should have been kept separate. But I wonder if the DRDO would have ever got funding for it had they run it as a technology demonstration just to gain experience only (to start with). I think a lot of things are driven/have been driven in DRDO by how to get funding for projects. So it was no surprise they tagged it with LCA to get IN on board. More customers more funds. It should have been clear to those in high offices (MOD) that this approach was full of inherent risks. But looks like they didn't bother about the risks or and if they did its not in the public domain.


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## faithfulguy

trident2010 said:


> The thing is, everyone knows about the problems associated and now trying to rectify the mistakes made in the past. Due to the huge magnitude of the LCA project, some past decision mistakes which we are now trying to correct delaying the project.
> 
> On the other hand, with LCA project India has learned a lot and by time they are improving. You always attack the Indian projects with same offensive, non-stop. It gives us the impression that you are not from neutral Taiwan/US but one of our immediate neighbour doing routine trolling. What is your native nation, you only know it. But if you come up with more balance observations w.r.t. Indian projects/situations, you will find people will hear you more attentively.



AS I had stated, I'm originally from Taiwan and now live in the US. I just share facts about all the countries out there. Among all the nationalities here, Indians and media from India are the most outrageous. So I call you guys out.


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## Akasa

INDIAISM said:


> Dude i think you should go through the J10 programe or 4th Gen jet program..Started as j9 fighter jet project in 1969 and they abonded that prject only to restart it as J10 project....First flight 1998....
> 
> Chineese have habbit of changing the names of the project like Jf17 started as Super7 project in 1988...



If you judge an aircraft's developmental age through all of its ancestors, then we can safely say that all aircraft have been in development for 116 years since the first flight of the first aircraft.


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## subincb

MST said:


> Well will you say the same thing about ALH Dhruv?



The problem was ALH was built by HAL who knew about helicopters. ADA or GTRE had no idea about planes or Engines before they started LCA and Kaveri. That was a major fault. If MOD wanted they should have separated out HAL Engine division whihc has developed PTAE-7 and building adour and other engines and asked them to build Kaveri.


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## trident2010

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> So the long list of experimental projects that NASA, lockheed martin, northrop etc did comes into the category of waste of time and money? Many western fighters did not achieve their 100% goals when they were inducted, still they got inducted and with time achieved 100% goals.



Neither we have luxury nor the resources as you quoted for US organisations. We want to be as frugal as possible in spending our limited resources. The best example is ISRO where they did not wasted their resources in 70's to launch man in the moon. Rather they built simple SLV's and satellites and now they are attempting GSLV. In science projects like of ISRO's, it is always good to experiment and if we don't get 100% results still we learn. On the other hand, if we use limited resources on defense project which is clearly not giving us the expected results than you are endangering the national security in the event of war. So one should think realistically in a time bound manner before taking up any ambitious project.


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## trident2010

faithfulguy said:


> AS I had stated, I'm originally from Taiwan and now live in the US. I just share facts about all the countries out there. Among all the nationalities here, Indians and media from India are the most outrageous. So I call you guys out.



If you are from neutral country and still take Indian matters serious enough to make hard comments then its good. The only problem is if someone claims that they are from neutral country but target only one country and talk about only shortcomings of that country, suspicion is only obvious and justified.

Indian media can become very funny at the times and we all know it. As far as Indian nationalism, yes we are, but things becomes out of hand when other nationalities people say things about India but their own situation is much worse.



MST said:


> Well will you say the same thing about ALH Dhruv?



There is a big difference between ALH and LCA project. Engine used in ALH was not made only by India among other things.

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## IND151

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...zRPhYvlWjQcVm8gUmA8RhRQ&bvm=bv.42261806,d.bmk

http://idrw.org/?p=18507


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## sancho

MST said:


> No doubt in an ideal world the N-LCA should have been kept separate.



Not in an ideal world, but in a rational thinking India, because that is the common way all over the world, it's only India that thinks there is a need for fully fledged programs for every small version, mainly based on pride reasons and not on operational requirements.


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## kurup

LCA simulator ready










For visitors wanting an up-close, personal hands-on feel of the country&#8217;s LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that dazzles the sky, there awaits the simulator, on ground, to provide them that enthralling experience.

Aero India 2013 has three simulators set up by Russia, France and India; two though will be closed for the general public. The only simulator accessible is Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. 

The simulator, starved of power during the first three days, is finally up and running. &#8220;The situation was bad with organisers having not supplied power on the initial two days. We are now seeing huge crowds lining up to get a feel of the actual LCA,&#8221; said a DRDO official.

The DRDO has now decided to provide a three-minute &#8220;experience&#8221; of Tejas to the public. &#8220;The simulation, from takeoff to landing, is close to 15 minutes. But with swelling crowds, we have cut it down to two to three minutes,&#8221; the official explained. Those that had the opportunity were thrilled at the experience.

Russian manufacturers of MiGs are shutting down their simulator due to &#8216;lack of space&#8217;. &#8220;It&#8217;s an expensive machinery. We do not want to take chances by opening it to the public,&#8221; said United Aircraft Corporation staffer.

Rafael Advanced Defence Systems & IAI, have a simulator for SPIKE missiles. However, a Rafael staffer said they may be shutting it down as it was meant only for experts to give them a feel of spike missiles loaded onto the helicopters.

LCA simulator ready | idrw.org


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## kurup

*
Flight test update*

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2006 Test Flights Successfully. (05-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-349*,LSP1-74,*LSP2-242*,PV5-36,*LSP3-96,LSP4-61,LSP5-124*,LSP7-18,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2025 Test Flights Successfully. (10-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-350*,LSP1-74,*LSP2-250*,PV5-36,*LSP3-99,LSP4-65,LSP5-127*,LSP7-18,NP1-4)

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## shree835

*Tejas SP-1 to be handed over to IAF in September*


According to the information provided in Aero India 2013 , first series production (SP-1) Tejas aircraft is scheduled for delivery in September 2013. SP-1 will be handed over to No. 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) that will be based initially in Bangalore, Karnataka , which will later move to Sulur near Coimbatore.

HAL is currently working on getting LSP-8 to air soon . the first flight of LSP-8 which will be final configuration as per MK-1 standard will have it first flight in next few weeks . LSP-8 and SP-1 will be first identical aircraft in current Tejas fleet . Tejas is expected to achieve Final IOC (IOC-2) around same time .

HAL on other hand after facing several criticism on failure to set up a production line for Tejas , *HAL has promised smooth supply of aircrafts once final IOC of the aircraft has been achieved . it was also informed that once final IOC is achieved HAL in next 3 to 6 months from there onward will be able to produce 8 aircrafts per year , plans are gradually to increase the production to 16 aircrafts per year .*

Development Work on first Tejas MK-2 aircraft will commence soon and first flight of Tejas MK-2 is currently scheduled for 2015 and the new and more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine with 98 kN of thrust will start arriving in India by next year , Engineers from General Electric will be helping ADA and HAL in integration of the engine into Tejas MK-2 air frame . Tejas MK-2 will have higher thrust to weight ratio , which will lead to better rate of acceleration .

The Tejas Mk 2 will now have a length of 13.70 metres (.50-metre more than that of the Tejas Mk 1, for incorporating a stretched nose section and a modified fuselage section aft of the cockpit for housing an expanded complement of mission avionics LRUs), height of 4.6 metres (as opposed to 4.4 metres of the Tejas Mk 1, to accommodate an enlarged vertical tail-section) and a wingspan of 8.2 metres, same as that of the Tejas Mk 1, that, however with an increased wing area. External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,000 kg (as opposed to 4,000 kg for the Tejas Mk1), while the twin internal air-intake ducts will be enlarged by 10 mm in diameter for the increased air flow requirement of the General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine.

Tejas SP-1 to be handed over to IAF in September | idrw.org

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## rockstarIN

Well, that is a good news. But HAL initially suppose to hand over LSP-7 and 8 for user trails before SP-1 to flying daggers. 

-Final IOC will be in 3-5 months
-IAF user trail/integration by Sept. 2013.



RPK said:


> *LCA Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India*


 @RPK u stole my avatar lol, I suppose to make the same for me.

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## kurup

Tejas warms up for spitfire Iron Fist demo at Jaisalmer








Bangalore: The next stop for India&#8217;s combat fighter Tejas is Jaisalmer. After completing its duties at the just-concluded air show here, the aerospace masters at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are gearing up for the next big show &#8211; Iron Fist. Tipped as the mother of all fire power demonstration of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Iron Fist will be held from February 15 in the Pokhran and Chandan firing ranges, near Jaisalmer.

*The participation of Tejas was confirmed to the media by the IAF boss Air Chief Marshal NA K Borwne during Aero India-2013.* Sources now tell Express that at Iron Fist, Tejas will show the indigenous combat strength to Indian and international audiences for the first time. &#8220;This is the first time the IAF extended an invitation to HAL-ADA for Tejas&#8217; participation,&#8221; sources said.

Three Tejas variants from its test flight-line are being readied in Bangalore for IAF&#8217;s spitfire show. *Tejas is also expected to fire a Russian R-73 missile in addition to dropping a LGB (laser-guided bomb).* &#8220;Only one aircraft will eventually take-off for the fire display and the remaining two will be on a hot stand-by,&#8221; sources said.

The HAL-ADA contingent, with a mission to prepare the aircraft, assess the flight analysis, collect the data collection and address any snags, are expected to leave Bangalore in the next couple of days. &#8220;We intent to achieve 100 per cent success during the fire power demonstration. In addition, it will also give Tejas an international recognition. For the first time it will be a day and night exercise, gauging the readiness and technological capabilities of IAF assets, of which many have undergone upgrades,&#8221; sources said.

President Pranab Mukherjee will be at the range to get an upclose of the prestigious exercise, which will conclude on February 23. 

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas warms up for spitfire Iron Fist demo at Jaisalmer


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## BlueDot_in_Space

It seems AF LCA tejas has been tested for lighting protection and rain water proofing as per below updates

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## BlueDot_in_Space

*Wake protection feature incorporated into the air data algorithm of LCA tejas*






from latest issue of airmag

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2025 Test Flights Successfully. (10-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,LSP2-250,PV5-36,LSP3-99,LSP4-65,LSP5-127,LSP7-18,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2029 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,LSP2-250,PV5-36,*LSP3-100*,LSP4-65,*LSP5-128*,*LSP7-20*,NP1-4)

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## RPK

rockstar said:


> @RPK u stole my avatar lol, I suppose to make the same for me.




Its Madras Regiment ensign

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## rockstarIN

RPK said:


> Its Madras Regiment ensign



I know................


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## kurup

Angle of Attack: Express sharpshooter floors MoD | Tejas&#8217; take-off photo captured during Aero India on way to South Block










Bangalore: The show is over, but the stories keep pouring in one after the other. In military aviation one of the most-discussed aspects of a combat fighter is its Angle of Attack -- popularly known as AoA. (Wikipedia explains AoA as the angle between the chord line of the wing of a fixed-wing aircraft and the vector representing the relative motion between the aircraft and the atmosphere.) But, little did Express&#8217; sharpshooter Suresh Nampoothiri realize that his &#8216;AoA&#8217;, while on duty, might fetch him rare laurels from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and leading shutterbugs! Like any military story from the tarmac, this too has its share of suspense and thrill. And, in this case there&#8217;s a happy ending too!

On assignment at Yelahanka&#8217;s Air Force Station during the just-concluded Aero India, Express photographer decided to take a different flightpath. Bored with ground realities, he ducked the security and climbed atop a building which was hitherto a &#8216;no-fly-zone&#8217; for the media. Back with his prized catch of the day, he began processing the frames at the Media Centre. Unaware that every move of his was under scanner, one senior official of MoD encountered Suresh asking one question after another about the photo, the angle, the position, the permission and the like.

However, the MoD officials were soon impressed with the series of photos taken by the young man, capturing the take-off of India&#8217;s Tejas combat fighter. Col Basudev Maitra, MoD&#8217;s Photo Division Director, was heard telling everyone at the Media Centre: &#8220;Bahut badia angle hain. Great photo!&#8221;

On Tuesday, Sitanshu Kar, MoD&#8217;s Principal Spokesperson and Additional Director General (Media and Communication) told City Express from Delhi that the Tejas take-off photo has virtually gone viral in the defence circles. &#8220;It&#8217;s very rare that one gets such a photo. The parked aircraft on the front adds more life to it. It also shows Tejas in a very dramatic frame. Many felt that Tejas was looking like a foreign fighter. The frame and angle made all the difference. It is a very stunning photo and definitely drew the attention of many,&#8221; says Kar, an avid photographer himself.

It is now confirmed that the Tejas stunner from the hangars of Express in Bangalore will find a place very soon at Dilli&#8217;s South Block. Moral of the story: AoA matters for planes and in photography!

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Angle of Attack: Express sharpshooter floors MoD | Tejas&#8217; take-off photo captured during Aero India on way to South Block

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## Jayanta

Bachpan se sun raha hu..LCA LCA LCA..kab banke tayar hoga...ab tak to kam se kam 200 LCA ban jana chahiye tha.


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## S-DUCT

LCA made her first flight in jan 2001,for a 3rd world country like india 15 years for flight test is not bad.
there are total 22 lca that are undergoing flight trials.LSP-8 will be given IAF to open flight trials.


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> Bachpan se sun raha hu..LCA LCA LCA..kab banke tayar hoga...ab tak to kam se kam 200 LCA ban jana chahiye tha.



Kyu munne ek tuche bji chahiye that kya.....

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## Jayanta

ANPP said:


> Kyu munne ek tuche bji chahiye that kya.....



Ban jayega to bata diyo....



S-DUCT said:


> LCA made her first flight in jan 2001,for a 3rd world country like india 15 years for flight test is not bad.
> there are total 22 lca that are undergoing flight trials.LSP-8 will be given IAF to open flight trials.



Bhai...LCA was supposed to replace Mig21. But it still is inferior to it...i mean LCA has all modern stuff including AESA, BVR missile, Composite material...yaar yeh agar Mig-21 mein laga dete to woh jyada asardar hota.:india:


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> Ban jayega to bata diyo....



ji madam ji, speed post se bta denge.


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## Jayanta

ANPP said:


> ji madam ji, speed post se bta denge.



Thank you behenji.


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## Alfa-Fighter

Jayanta said:


> Bachpan se sun raha hu..LCA LCA LCA..kab banke tayar hoga...ab tak to kam se kam 200 LCA ban jana chahiye tha.



We dont induct half finished aircraft, or Airplane without HMD and then compare with 4.5 Gen fighter or without night flying capability ......


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> Thank you behenji.



Ap to apne countyr ka flag itni jldi chage krte ho ki Sas-bahu serial vale bhi shame feel kre...


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## Black Widow

Alfa-Fighter said:


> We dont induct half finished aircraft, or Airplane without HMD and then compare with 4.5 Gen fighter or without night flying capability ......





Yes we are such a big A$$ whole that

1. We change requirement for Jaguar for Kickback.
2. Take kick back in Boforse case and induct Boforse gun.
3. change Max cieling of AW Helos from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft.
4. Change door hight of AW form 1.7 mtr to 1.6 mtr..

But we can't compromise if.
1. Kaveri engine is 10% less powerfull.
2. LCA is 500-600 KG heavier
3. LCA thrust is 10% low



I think HAL/DRDO should open Brothel (Women are main ingredient for Def deals.) and appoint commision agents..

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## Jayanta

ANPP said:


> Ap to apne countyr ka flag itni jldi chage krte ho ki Sas-bahu serial vale bhi shame feel kre...



dikhawe pe na jao apni akal lagao....


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## sudhir007

check the video and you will know how stupid our media

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## sudhir007




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## conworldus

Black Widow said:


> Yes we are such a big A$$ whole that
> 
> 1. We change requirement for Jaguar for Kickback.
> 2. Take kick back in Boforse case and induct Boforse gun.
> 3. change Max cieling of AW Helos from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft.
> 4. Change door hight of AW form 1.7 mtr to 1.6 mtr..
> 
> But we can't compromise if.
> *1. Kaveri engine is 10% less powerfull.*
> 2. LCA is 500-600 KG heavier
> 3. LCA thrust is 10% low
> 
> 
> 
> I think HAL/DRDO should open Brothel (Women are main ingredient for Def deals.) and appoint commision agents..



Do you have detailed information on why Kaveri was cancelled (or not, according to some members here)? I doubt that thrust deficiency is the only problem, but I really haven't seen any detailed information about it.

BTW, where did you get the 10% figure? Has there been any official statement on the technical problems of Kaveri?


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## trident2010

Any videos from Aero India 2013 for LCA performance?


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## Black Widow

conworldus said:


> Do you have detailed information on why Kaveri was cancelled (or not, according to some members here)? I doubt that thrust deficiency is the only problem, but I really haven't seen any detailed information about it.
> 
> BTW, where did you get the 10% figure? Has there been any official statement on the technical problems of Kaveri?





Don't catch the words. I am saying here...

"our Politicians happily acquire inferior foreign equipment, while expect world class finished product from DRDO/HAL. Its corruption which is failing India, not HAL/DRDO". Arjuna, LCA should have inducted long back. MBT Arjuna is living example of political sabotage, betrayal and apathy of Sonia Maino ...


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## sasi

Black Widow said:


> I think HAL/DRDO should open Brothel (Women are main ingredient for Def deals.) and appoint commision agents..



Then, i may buy a few tanks to park infront of my house!


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## Jayanta

Black Widow said:


> Yes we are such a big A$$ whole that
> 
> 1. We change requirement for Jaguar for Kickback.
> 2. Take kick back in Boforse case and induct Boforse gun.
> 3. change Max cieling of AW Helos from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft.
> 4. Change door hight of AW form 1.7 mtr to 1.6 mtr..
> 
> But we can't compromise if.
> 1. Kaveri engine is 10% less powerfull.
> 2. LCA is 500-600 KG heavier
> 3. LCA thrust is 10% low
> 
> 
> 
> I think HAL/DRDO should open Brothel (Women are main ingredient for Def deals.) and appoint commision agents..



HAS ANY INDIAN DEFENSE PROJECT BEEN COMPLETED WITHOUT DELAY AND HIKE IN EXPENSE??? You have a point brother...just imagine how slow the process...in 2008 it was finalized that GE-414 engines would be used for MK-2...and the orders were placed in 2013....By now at least all squadrons of LCA-MK-1 should have been inducted with FOC and MK-2 should have been in the IOC phase. 
Arjun has proved to be better than T-90 and yet IA didn't bothered to buy them...I think something must be done with the purchase system and the MoD. 
Now coming to government run organizations like DRDO, HAL, ADA etc...must be privatized and the policy to run them should be perform or perish.
What about the indigenous aircraft carrier...what is the delay status...how many years???


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## Jayanta

There is a similarity as well as dissimilarity between Indian politicians and DRDO workers are: 
Politicians plan for 5 years...and DRDO scientists for 30. The idea is to drag a project till retirement, during the tenure travel around the world with few power point presentations and deliver the same talk again and again....finally retire...oops sorry politicians do not retire neither does DRDO heads...there are 27 of them who are still in their posts even after retirement.


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## Jayanta

Jayanta said:


> There is a similarity as well as dissimilarity between Indian politicians and DRDO workers are:
> Politicians plan for 5 years...and DRDO scientists for 30. The idea is to drag a project till retirement, during the tenure travel around the world with few power point presentations and deliver the same talk again and again....finally retire...oops sorry politicians do not retire neither does DRDO heads...there are 27 of them who are still in their posts even after retirement.



Oldies of DRDO cling on to their jobs post retirement : India, News - India Today


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## Jayanta

trident2010 said:


> Any videos from Aero India 2013 for LCA performance?



Watch the IndiaTV video of Rafale...that actually is the LCA performing....the journalists have no idea about fighters...not even to distinguish an indigenous single engine from a 2 engine Rafale.


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## ANPP

Black Widow said:


> Yes we are such a big A$$ whole that
> 
> 1. We change requirement for Jaguar for Kickback.
> 2. Take kick back in Boforse case and induct Boforse gun.
> 3. change Max cieling of AW Helos from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft.
> 4. Change door hight of AW form 1.7 mtr to 1.6 mtr..
> 
> But we can't compromise if.
> 1. Kaveri engine is 10% less powerfull.
> 2. LCA is 500-600 KG heavier
> 3. LCA thrust is 10% low
> 
> 
> 
> I think HAL/DRDO should open Brothel (Women are main ingredient for Def deals.) and appoint commision agents..



So true brother, Every single word show Indian military attitude towards Indian stuffs.


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> Watch the IndiaTV video of Rafale...that actually is the LCA performing....the journalists have no idea about fighters...not even to distinguish an indigenous single engine from a 2 engine Rafale.



hahaa... 
you are wright, those journalist dont know any thing but try to put masaala in front of audience. Than we make fun of them......


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Yes we are such a big A$$ whole that
> 
> 1. We change requirement for Jaguar for Kickback.
> 2. Take kick back in Boforse case and induct Boforse gun.
> 3. change Max cieling of AW Helos from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft.
> 4. Change door hight of AW form 1.7 mtr to 1.6 mtr..
> 
> But we can't compromise if.
> 1. Kaveri engine is 10% less powerfull.
> 2. LCA is 500-600 KG heavier
> 3. LCA thrust is 10% low




The ceilling or the door size of the helicopters are no dealbreakers to operate the VIP helicopters, while Kaveri is not reliable, too heavy and underpowered. LCA is more than 1t heavier and draggier than planned. All together would dramatically reduce the performance of the fighter, from the development goals, so your comparison doesn't really make sense and is just another excuse for our industry by blaming IAF.
The fact however is, that LCA would be ready NOW, if DRDO didn't have combined LCA and Kaveri development together! We would have chosen a suitable foreign engine from the start and wouldn't have had so many delays.

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## Backbencher

Jayanta said:


> Watch the IndiaTV video of Rafale...that actually is the LCA performing....the journalists have no idea about fighters...not even to distinguish an indigenous single engine from a 2 engine Rafale.



You mean that shitmost news channel !!
Unke headlines kya hote they
Aaj Salman Khan ko kyun aaye neend ??
Pakistan ki tabahi ??
Ye janta kuch kehte hai ??

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## S-DUCT

Key Features:
MK-I:
1. Glass Cockpit
2. Dual Redundant Open Architecture Mission and Display Computer
3. Dual Redundant 1553B data bus
4. Advanced sensors, MMR, Helmet mounted sight , RWR and Litening pod.
5. Digital weapon management system comparable to russian western and etc.
6. Computer controlled utility system and management system.
7. Pylon interface boxes (PIB's)
8. Easy role change
MK-II:
1.Advanced glass cockpit with high performance graphics to support situational awareness, Decision Support and data fusion
2. Enhanced Powerful Graphics integrated with mission and display computer
3. Avionics Full-duple X-Switched Ethernet (AFDX) based back up avionics
4. Enhanced EW Suite and NextGen Lisening pod
5. *AESA Rada*r
6. System on Chip (SoC) based design.
7. Universal Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC)
8. Digital Maps
9. Enhanced SWAP (Size, Wieght and Power)
AESA for mk2 confirmed


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> NextGen Lisening pod
> 5. *AESA Rada*r
> 6. System on Chip (SoC) based design.
> 7. Universal Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC)
> 8. Digital Maps
> 9. Enhanced SWAP (Size, Wieght and Power)
> AESA for mk2 confirmed



That's the aim, but not the current status, it also talks about NG Litening, which is interesting, since it's not selected yet as the winner of the LDP competition. AESA is definitely the development goal, but as ADA officials stated recenetly, what MMR it will get needs to be seen.

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## EzioAltaïr

ANPP said:


> hahaa...
> you are wright, those journalist dont know any thing but try to put masaala in front of audience. Than we make fun of them......



We make fun of **** videos, but most of the public just sees the video and takes it as truth. They'll just see the "Rafale" performing, and criticise the LCA more.

Speaking of **** journalism, anyone noticed how often they print the range of artillery guns as 10,000 km.

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## r1MM0n

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wouCnA7waAo

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> The ceilling or the door size of the helicopters are no dealbreakers to operate the VIP helicopters, while Kaveri is not reliable, too heavy and underpowered. LCA is more than 1t heavier and draggier than planned. All together would dramatically reduce the performance of the fighter, from the development goals, so your comparison doesn't really make sense and is just another excuse for our industry by blaming IAF.
> The fact however is, that LCA would be ready NOW, if DRDO didn't have combined LCA and Kaveri development together! We would have chosen a suitable foreign engine from the start and wouldn't have had so many delays.





I completely Agree with you, my only point is Indian procurement division (Political class) should be empathic towards Domestic products. I may be wrong at LCA but there are many deals which we all know where Politicians changed the requirements drastically.

One I remember was Jaguar, the sole Idea of Jaguar procurement was to have Nuclear delivery capability, which it didn't met.
Another instance was Arjuna, Arjuna was sabotaged to procure 1200+ T90 Tanks.

I know LCA was 600-700 Kg heavier, but tell me one thing, which bird in world had met exact weight it was targeted for?? I was watching once EFT documentry, I was shocked to see that It was also heavier than targeted. I was watching Rafael Documentry I was shocked to see, the Engine was not enough powerfull as targeted. All these problems were solved later (After procurement). 

Watch Documentry of F111A, This plane was sh!t in Vietnam war, later it was redesign/modified.

The only thing HAL/DRDO don't offer is bribe and flesh... If DRDO start providing east european flesh to these politicians, same LCA will become world class fighter...

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## Arav_Rana

sancho said:


> That's the aim, but not the current status, it also talks about NG Litening, which is interesting, since it's not selected yet as the winner of the LDP competition. AESA is definitely the development goal, but as ADA officials stated recenetly, what MMR it will get needs to be seen.



Sancho 1 question bro 
Have we start developing AESA or not. 
And withm whom JV, DRDO is developing the AESa radar. 

When Weapon integration ll complete on LCA. Is there any deadline for this ?


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## IND151

Tejas to be subjected to field conditions soon | idrw.org


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## Black Widow

arav said:


> Sancho 1 question bro
> Have we start developing AESA or not.
> And withm whom JV, DRDO is developing the AESa radar.
> 
> When Weapon integration ll complete on LCA. Is there any deadline for this ?





Last time I heard that DRDO was writing AESA code on ELTA2052 processor/hardware. Rest Sancho can tell betetr


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## GURU DUTT

sooner than later LCA is going to be a great machine and the puzzelle finalli is coming to complition dont worry we will have asea radar and infact two one indian and one israeli question is which one will be there my guess is that the IAF will go for the israeli one and IN for the indian one


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## sudhir007



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## sancho

arav said:


> Sancho 1 question bro
> Have we start developing AESA or not.
> And withm whom JV, DRDO is developing the AESa radar.
> 
> When Weapon integration ll complete on LCA. Is there any deadline for this ?



DRDO has an AESA radar development going on for some years, so far without a partner and earlier reports suggested that MoD/IAF wasn't happy with the early performance and searched for a foreign partner. The Israelis were prefered, by their radar is co-developed with the US, that's why a co-development based on their techs is not possible so far.
Russian and European partners were evaluated as well, but officially no partner was chosen yet.

Currently we have no status about DRDOs puls doppler radar developments, which were meant for LCA Mk1. Talks from AI with officials suggest that they will have the EL 2032, even the early N-LCAs, which hints on DRDOs radar not beeing ready anytime soon, not the puls doppler radar, nor the AESA.

Even if they get ready with it, the question is how capable will they be and is is wise to use a premature AESA from them, only because it's indigenous, or should we stick with a foreign radar to provide the best techs for Indias security?

My personal choice is still to maximise commonality! We will produce the RBE 2 AESA and the FSO of Rafale in India anyway, so using both systems for LCA MK2 is a logical step towards lower costs and increase of capability of LCA MK2. DRDO then could keep maturing it's own AESA radar developments, to provide Mig 29K and AMCA with a good an proven AESA. 
Not to forget that it could be added to LCA MK1s later to replace the Israeli radar, just like Kaveri K10 is meant to replace US engines in LCA MK1 too.



IND151 said:


> Tejas to be subjected to field conditions soon | idrw.org



Buddy, please quote at least parts of the article (the important once) and not only the link. Thx!

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> I completely Agree with you, my only point is Indian procurement division (Political class) should be empathic towards Domestic products.



Which is ok, IF we can domestically provide something similar, with the same capabilities and performance, but in most cases, this is not possible, since our industry is still decades behind. We shouldn't get into such conclusions because of indigenous pride and should remain realistic about what we need and what we can provide on our own.
The Air Chief confirmed at AI that IAF procures more than 60% of it's equipment from Indian suppliers (I guess that includes licence produced fighters like MKI as well), which is a good figure and we all know that this will only rise in future. The problem however is, that we tend to make indigenously devloped arms better then they are, because of the wrong reasons. LCA will never be as capable as Rafale or MKI, AMCA would never be as capable as FGFA, Dhruv is not in the class, nor does it offer the required performance as an EW101, or Mi 17...
So when we have something capable to offer, I fully support it to stick with Indian stuff, which is why I want IN and ICG to use upgraded naval Dhruvs, instead of buying foreign twin engine LUHs, but there are only very few such cases so far.




Black Widow said:


> I know LCA was 600-700 Kg heavier, but tell me one thing, which bird in world had met exact weight it was targeted for??


Again, LCA is more than 1t heavier than planned, which is a major problem and arguing that other foreign projects also have issues, doesn't make LCA better, it's just an excuse to distract from the failures and problems of the industry.
I am fully with you on the point, that IAF should already have inducted LCA, because it's even now better than any Mig 21, Mig 27 or Jaguars, but that doesn't mean we simply should look over the problems it have, or that the industry simply should forget it and go on with the next project (that's what they are doing now!). 




Black Widow said:


> The only thing HAL/DRDO don't offer is bribe and flesh... If DRDO start providing east european flesh to these politicians, same LCA will become world class fighter...



The only thing DRDO don't offer so far is, what they have promised us! A light, cost-effective fighter, an indigenous engine that can power it and an indigenous radar, good enough to be comparable with similar foreign counterparts.
They messed up the first, because they wanted to do everything alone and at once, they failed badly at the second and as showed in my last post, the status of their radar developments are still uncertain.


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## skysthelimit

sancho said:


> The only thing DRDO don't offer so far is, what they have promised us! A light, cost-effective fighter, an indigenous engine that can power it and an indigenous radar, good enough to be comparable with similar foreign counterparts.
> They messed up the first, because they wanted to do everything alone and at once, they failed badly at the second and as showed in my last post, the status of their radar developments are still uncertain.



No one can argue that DRDO has had a horrible track record in delivering projects on time and as per agreed quality. But a large part of the problem stems from the fact that our armed forces at first sets sets unrealistically high goals for indigenous products and then keeps on changing the requirements as time goes by.

A few points here -
1. The point of developing & using indigenous military equipment is creating local capability - it is by definition a long term game. You can always argue that our air force will need to match enemy capabilities but the correct approach here is to create a basic product and keep on developing in subsequent releases. This is not a new concept or one exclusively prevalent in the military domain. In the software and startup world, the motto is "*Release early and release often.*" But our armed forces start by asking for the planes and tanks from the pages of science fiction and then refuse to give clearance if their stringent demands are not met. This has happened for LCA and this has happened for Arjun as well.
2. But when it comes to foreign made products, they are strangely much more forgiving. I don't suggest that this is because of bribes and honey-traps, but their attitude does generate suspicion. Again Arjun vs. T90S comes to mind.
3. From what I have seen, the Indian Navy has been the sole exception in this regard - they have understood that asking for the moon from someone who has just learned to walk is a bad idea. Starting from scratch, they have accepted steadily more capable versions of fighting ships and now we have considerable local capacity in that domain. Of course, GRSE & Mazgaon docks can be a million times more productive, but still that's better than nothing.
4. I have a huge problem with the entire requirements structure of LCA itself. A Light Combat Aircraft is supposed to be just that - "Light". You use it for point defence, to achieve air superiority through maneuverability and massive numbers. That's why Mig 21 was such a good light fighter in its time - it didn't have a heavy weapon load and sucked at A2G missions, but it was cheap, fast and maneuverable - and that's what counted. But IAF wants all the features of F16, FA18 and F15 in our LCA, with the kitchen sink thrown in, if possible. Even Lockheed Martin would have trouble delivering something that needs to be good at everything at the same time.

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## sancho

skysthelimit said:


> No one can argue that DRDO has had a horrible track record in delivering projects on time and as per agreed quality. But a large part of the problem stems from the fact that our armed forces at first sets sets unrealistically high goals for indigenous products and then keeps on changing the requirements as time goes by.



If "some" delays would be the only problem, it wouldn't be a big issue, but in case of LCA for example, they can't provide anything! Their engine developments failed completely, which caused the main part of the LCA delays, so that has nothing to do with requirements or IAF at all. And which requirements really was changed by IAF? The new engines were needed because Kaveri failed and LCA got to heavy and draggy, so more power was a need to counter the shortfalls of the development (btw, mainly required from IN wrt N-LCA, just like the additional fuel tanks, which is why I always say, that N-LCA delays LCA as a while as well).





skysthelimit said:


> A few points here -
> 1. The point of developing & using indigenous military equipment is creating local capability - it is by definition a long term game. You can always argue that our air force will need to match enemy capabilities but the correct approach here is to create a basic product and keep on developing in subsequent releases.




Exactly, that's why the LCA program as whole is so important for Indias aero sector, because it's sets up the base infrastructure to develop and operate indigenously developed fighters. That's why it's so important to get LCA into serial production and inducted into IAF as soon as possible, but also to keep developments going on to make it better and provide good logistical support for the next 3 decades.
But all this is not possible if the industry is not able to meet at least basic development goals and simply want to switch to the next project now (AMCA), or without IAF finally inducting LCA and help to improve it in the coming years during operational service. That's why I am for inducting LCA right now, but not for waiting more years for DRDO to provide the promised techs. Take proven and capable foreign techs now instead, which even makes LCA better than initially planned and keep improving DRDOs development on the side and de-linked from LCA.






skysthelimit said:


> 2. But when it comes to foreign made products, they are strangely much more forgiving. I don't suggest that this is because of bribes and honey-traps, but their attitude does generate suspicion. Again Arjun vs. T90S comes to mind.



I agree with that to certain extend, just like LCA should already be inducted now, Arjun should have got more orders by now as well. However, you can't simply forget the years of delays both projects have and that in these years the threat perception, just like the tactics changes, for Arjun more than for LCA.
Arjun was developed as an MBT in a time when Pakistan and the western borders were the main priority, today IA needs more mobile tanks that can face the more capable Chinese army, that's why IA prefers T90s or the FMBT for the northern or eastern borders.
LCA on the other side was always meant to be the low end fighter of IAF, so even against China it will only be an addition to more capable MKIs, Rafales and in future FGFAs at the eastern borders. That's why I would have prefered a smaller and faster MK2 modifications, but as said, that was mainly not possibly because if the requirements of IN.

So again, it is ture that our forces needs to be more confident in indigenous developments, but that doesn't mean they have to take anything what the industry have developmed or what they want to develop (HTT40), because the most important priority is Indias security, not supporting Indian industry for pride reasons!




skysthelimit said:


> 3. From what I have seen, the Indian Navy has been the sole exception in this regard -



That's often stated, but it's simply too short sighted!

1) IN don't have a threat perception like IA and IAF, therefor their requirements can be lower, or they can accept limited capable indigenous developments too (N-LCA)

2) Indian naval industry is way ahead of our aero industry, that's why IN benefit a lot from good Indian companies, that can not only produce capable vessels, but also from capable naval sensors (partially developed by DRDO) and systems. 

3) On the other side, the fact that IN might not have a single indigenously developed helicopter for the next decades apart from a dozon naval Dhruvs or so, shows the problem of the aero field and that IN is not that supporting as it seems!


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> I completely Agree with you, my only point is Indian procurement division (Political class) should be empathic towards Domestic products. I may be wrong at LCA but there are many deals which we all know where Politicians changed the requirements drastically.
> 
> One I remember was Jaguar, the sole Idea of Jaguar procurement was to have Nuclear delivery capability, which it didn't met.
> Another instance was Arjuna, Arjuna was sabotaged to procure 1200+ T90 Tanks.
> 
> I know LCA was 600-700 Kg heavier, but tell me one thing, which bird in world had met exact weight it was targeted for?? I was watching once EFT documentry, I was shocked to see that It was also heavier than targeted. I was watching Rafael Documentry I was shocked to see, the Engine was not enough powerfull as targeted. All these problems were solved later (After procurement).
> 
> Watch Documentry of F111A, This plane was sh!t in Vietnam war, later it was redesign/modified.
> 
> The only thing HAL/DRDO don't offer is bribe and flesh... If DRDO start providing east european flesh to these politicians, same LCA will become world class fighter...



You are correct in all ways. Those army/iaf guys need bribe nothing else. We needed outside people to tell us T-90 is a desert Ferrari. I bet if you take LCA out to any other country and do trials, their reply will be way different than our guys.

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## rockstarIN

Also the middle man involved in the Mirage deal, damn I do not want that deal to be cancelled even we are paying around $42 million per lance for the up gradation less weapons!!

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Also the middle man involved in the Mirage deal, damn I do not want that deal to be cancelled even we are paying around $42 million per lance for the up gradation less weapons!!



1. of all, Dassault didn't paid anything
2. it was during the procurement of Mirage 2000 some decades ago, which can't have any point in the upgrade of the fighters anyway

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## Abingdonboy

Slides from Aero India 2013 for Canada-based CMC Electronics/Easterline, which is competing against HALBIT (ELBIT) Systems fir supplying the glass cockpit for the Tejas Mk2 and LCA (Navy) Mk2 MRCAs:


















ELBIT's CockpitNG:

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## The A-5

^^Definitely CockpitNG seems better. And its from a more reliable source, we can obtain it through
the HALBIT avionics JV company between HAL and Elbit Systems.


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## Abingdonboy

The A-5 said:


> ^^Definitely CockpitNG seems better. And its from a more reliable source, we can obtain it through
> the HALBIT avionics JV company between HAL and Elbit Systems.



I agree fully. The Cockpit 4000 from CMC Electronics/Easterline looks a little less refined IMHO.


And yes- when HALBIT is already up and running, let them take the deal.


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## S-DUCT

LCA tejas avionics & weapon system(hi def pic)


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## S-DUCT

EW suite for LCA:

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## subincb

Source Anantha Krishnan From Tarmak

Tejas hits target.

Just in. Sources tell Tarmak007 that Tejas hits target during Iron Fist full dress rehearsal. (Official confirmation yet to come.)

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## skysthelimit

sancho said:


> If "some" delays would be the only problem, it wouldn't be a big issue, but in case of LCA for example, they can't provide anything! Their engine developments failed completely, which caused the main part of the LCA delays, so that has nothing to do with requirements or IAF at all. And which requirements really was changed by IAF? The new engines were needed because Kaveri failed and LCA got to heavy and draggy, so more power was a need to counter the shortfalls of the development (btw, mainly required from IN wrt N-LCA, just like the additional fuel tanks, which is why I always say, that N-LCA delays LCA as a while as well).


DRDO & IAF's first and major mistake was linking the LCA & Kaveri program together. And unfortunately the Kaveri program was hit hard by the post-Pokhran sanctions. But even without any problems, DRDO had its work out in designing Kaveri - one of the main reasons thrust requirement for Kaveri was so high was due to the unreasonably high weapon load and performance the IAF expected from LCA.




sancho said:


> Exactly, that's why the LCA program as whole is so important for Indias aero sector, because it's sets up the base infrastructure to develop and operate indigenously developed fighters. That's why it's so important to get LCA into serial production and inducted into IAF as soon as possible, but also to keep developments going on to make it better and provide good logistical support for the next 3 decades.
> But all this is not possible if the industry is not able to meet at least basic development goals and simply want to switch to the next project now (AMCA), or without IAF finally inducting LCA and help to improve it in the coming years during operational service. That's why I am for inducting LCA right now, but not for waiting more years for DRDO to provide the promised techs. Take proven and capable foreign techs now instead, which even makes LCA better than initially planned and keep improving DRDOs development on the side and de-linked from LCA.
> 
> I agree with that to certain extend, just like LCA should already be inducted now, Arjun should have got more orders by now as well. However, you can't simply forget the years of delays both projects have and that in these years the threat perception, just like the tactics changes, for Arjun more than for LCA.
> Arjun was developed as an MBT in a time when Pakistan and the western borders were the main priority, today IA needs more mobile tanks that can face the more capable Chinese army, that's why IA prefers T90s or the FMBT for the northern or eastern borders.
> LCA on the other side was always meant to be the low end fighter of IAF, so even against China it will only be an addition to more capable MKIs, Rafales and in future FGFAs at the eastern borders. That's why I would have prefered a smaller and faster MK2 modifications, but as said, that was mainly not possibly because if the requirements of IN.
> 
> So again, it is ture that our forces needs to be more confident in indigenous developments, but that doesn't mean they have to take anything what the industry have developmed or what they want to develop (HTT40), because the most important priority is Indias security, not supporting Indian industry for pride reasons!



Even I am not suggesting that India accept inferior quality indigenous products for local pride, but when it comes to foreign made equipment, IA & IAF seem to be much more willing to relax standards but not so much for DRDO. Specifically, Arjun has bested the T-90 in all comparative performance tests, but still Army insists on the Russian tank. And weight of Arjun is far less of an issue - Arjun has lower ground pressure than T-90, which is the critical factor.




sancho said:


> That's often stated, but it's simply too short sighted!
> 
> 1) IN don't have a threat perception like IA and IAF, therefor their requirements can be lower, or they can accept limited capable indigenous developments too (N-LCA)
> 
> 2) Indian naval industry is way ahead of our aero industry, that's why IN benefit a lot from good Indian companies, that can not only produce capable vessels, but also from capable naval sensors (partially developed by DRDO) and systems.
> 
> 3) On the other side, the fact that IN might not have a single indigenously developed helicopter for the next decades apart from a dozon naval Dhruvs or so, shows the problem of the aero field and that IN is not that supporting as it seems!


Indian naval industry is _now_ ahead of the aero industry because the IN has been supporting local capability development for decades. And they are still much more accepting of Indian products - Admiral Joshi has been stressing on his preference for Naval Dhruv and LCA for quite a few months now.


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## The Witcher

Didn't we already developed an indigenous glass cockpit for Mk1?

Didn't we already developed an indigenous glass cockpit for Mk1?


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## sancho

skysthelimit said:


> DRDO & IAF's first and major mistake was linking the LCA & Kaveri program together. And unfortunately the Kaveri program was hit hard by the post-Pokhran sanctions. But even without any problems, DRDO had its work out in designing Kaveri - *one of the main reasons thrust requirement for Kaveri was so high was due to the unreasonably high weapon load and performance the IAF expected from LCA*.



First of all, IAF didn't linked Kaveri with LCA, DRDO/ADA did, because they are the prime developers of the LCA. IAF only stated what requirements they need as the operator of the fighter.
Secondly, where do you see high thrust or payload requirements for LCA MK1? Kaveri was aimed at hardly 50kN dry and 81 wet, that's what the last generartion of RD 33-3 Series offered in The Mig 29 and in JF 17, that is less than the M53 offers in Mirage 2000, or what the RM 12 offers in Gripen C/D. Not to mention that all these fighters have either similar, or far higher payload than LCA MK1. 
So that is a pretty baseless claim!




skysthelimit said:


> Admiral Joshi has been stressing on his preference for Naval Dhruv



And still they are rejecting it, they don't buy the HAL LUH, they will procure high numbers of medium class naval helicopters, which basically kills HALs IMRH future project, so what does it tell you about their support to Indian aero industry, especially by the fact that the helicopter sector is the most successful in the areo industry?

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## sancho

Banned Member said:


> Didn't we already developed an indigenous glass cockpit for Mk1?



Yes, but our industry wants to show off now, that's why they want to integrate a new NG cockpit in our low end fighter, that will be even superior to the cockpit we integrate in MKIs, which shows how far they are from the reality and from what is really needed!
Develop such things for FGFA and AMCA, but why on earth do you delay the already hugely delayed LCA program with techs that are not needed for this fighter? Plain nonsense!

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Yes, but our industry wants to show off now, that's why they want to integrate a new NG cockpit in our low end fighter, that will be even superior to the cockpit we integrate in MKIs, which shows how far they are from the reality and from what is really needed!
> Develop such things for FGFA and AMCA, but why on earth do you delay the already hugely delayed LCA program with techs that are not needed for this fighter? Plain nonsense!



Lol you're so right! But oh well- at least it looks cool, right!


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol you're so right! But oh well- at least it looks cool, right!



But that's the point, it's basically looks, without making the fighter much more capable. I would prefer 2 more hardpoints, for the wing or centerline station (Gripen NG) way more, because that's what makes a real difference, while this is just show for no reason.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> But that's the point, it's basically looks, without making the fighter much more capable. I would prefer 2 more hardpoints, for the wing or centerline station (Gripen NG) way more, because that's what makes a real difference, while this is just show for no reason.


To be fair there is a certain advantage of such a cockpit- otherwise it wouldn't have been devloped. The cockpit can reduce pilot fatigue and increase his effectiveness. But yes the gains to be made over the existing cockpit which isn't exactly stone-age are not huge. And it is odd that this is one of the areas the IAF/IN have insisted on making improvements. I think it has become a case of HAL/ADA are now trying to make a perfect machine in the MK.2 and are incorporating every little design change the Test pilots have suggested. I remember in a Aero india seminar talk a LCA test pilot said HAL/ADA were eager to make any changes the test pilots asked for and this is a major advantage over foreign bought machines. And yes whilst it is at some point you have to draw a line and deliver what you've got and stop refining refinements. 


I can see that all pilots in an ideal world would like to have a NG cockpit like the CockpitNG but we don't live in an ideal world and the LCA's current cockpit is adequete. 


Oh well, it is what it is-HAL/ADA are going down this route. But to be fair @sancho, as this is an off the shelf purchase I don't see why there'd be any significant time penalties when integrating a NG cockpit on the MK.2.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

LCA MK2 cockpit is different from what ppl are discussing here. same configuration but larger MFDs. Dont believe what trishul blog psosts, because most of it is his thoughts. The guy had claimed that NAL has failed in composite manufacturing and TATA is coming to the rescue, which is a blatant lie. NAL developed the technology for composite tech for LCA program and now for series production they are transferring the tech to TATA.


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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> LCA MK2 cockpit is different from what ppl are discussing here. same configuration but larger MFDs. Dont believe what trishul blog psosts, because most of it is his thoughts. The guy had claimed that NAL has failed in composite manufacturing and TATA is coming to the rescue, which is a blatant lie. NAL developed the technology for composite tech for LCA program and now for series production they are transferring the tech to TATA.




Sir- IIRC the RFI/RFP to ELBIT and the like were sent out some time ago and were posted here. I believe trishul blog is right in this case.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> But that's the point, it's basically looks, without making the fighter much more capable. I would prefer 2 more hardpoints, for the wing or centerline station (Gripen NG) way more, because that's what makes a real difference, while this is just show for no reason.



Let it be Light combat aircraft to serve the lower tier of IAF. On one side you complain that LCA is overweight, then you also want more hard points? They are already increasing its weapons load from 3600 to 5000kgs, is that not making the fighter more capable?

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir- IIRC the RFI/RFP to ELBIT and the like were sent out some time ago and were posted here. I believe trishul blog is right in this case.



I prefer Arya over Sir . Yes you may very well be right, but that's an official pic of LCA mk2 cockpit.


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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> I prefer Arya over Sir . Yes you may very well be right, but that's an official pic of LCA mk2 cockpit.


I don't doubt you sir. But we don't know the context of this pic and we don't know what HAL/ADA are thinking ie maybe they experimented with larger MFDs- hence this pic, but in the end decided to go for a NG cockpit like the ELBIT offering. 

I guess we have to wait and see.


+who is Arya?


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## S-DUCT

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2029 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,*LSP2-250*,PV5-36,*LSP3-100*,LSP4-65,*LSP5-128*,*LSP7-20*,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2042 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,*LSP2-252*,PV5-36,*LSP3-102*,LSP4-65,*LSP5-133*,*LSP7-24*,NP1-4)

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## IND151

*IAF Statement: *February 22, 2013 would witness the Indian Air Force demonstrate its operational capabilities by day, dusk and night at the sprawling facility of the Pokharan Range, the largest air &#8211;to-ground weapons firing range for training in delivery of heavy armament, near Jaisalmer, in the arid Rajasthan Sector in an Exercise named &#8211; Iron Fist.


*Light Combat Aircraft* and *Light Combat Helicopter*, two of the most prestigious indigenous projects would also form a part of the display. In addition, IAF&#8217;s Parajumping Team, Akash Ganga, IAF&#8217;s Air Warrior Drill Team and Air Warrior Symphony Orchestra would also perform.

Livefist: Exercise Iron Fist To Feature Tejas, LCH


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## Jayanta

2004: LCA will be fully operational by 2010 

LCA Tejas still not ready - Times Of India

2011: LCA will be fully operational by 2013 

Tejas won't become fully operational before 2013 - Times Of India

2013: LCA will be fully operational by 2015 

`LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015`

2015: LCA will be fully operational by ?????????????????


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> To be fair there is a certain advantage of such a cockpit- otherwise it wouldn't have been devloped.



No doubt, but that's why you develop it for the most advanced fighters, not for a low end cost-effective fighter, with the result to make LCA MK2 only more costly and more delayed. 



Abingdonboy said:


> And it is odd that this is one of the areas the IAF/IN have insisted on making improvements.



I doubt they did, why would they insist for such techs, when they didn't for Super 30, Rafale, or Mig 29K? I think HAL is proposing it, because they can now, thanks to the HALBIT JV, but they can't integrate it into Rafale and MKI (possibly Mig 29K get Samtel displays). To me this again looks like the industry is developing something, that isn't really needed by the forces. That makes them "look" like they are able to develop something only the latest US fighters have, but integrated to a low end fighter, it simply doesn't make sense! 




Abingdonboy said:


> as this is an off the shelf purchase I don't see why there'd be any significant time penalties when integrating a NG cockpit on the MK.2.



Off the shelf? This cockpit is not developed yet, neither are the techs in a mature stage, or was it developed for LCA, which means it must be integrated with all LCA systems and sensors again. All this takes time and a lot of testing, which is the last thing LCA needs. Look at Boeing for example and how long they need to develop, test and integrate such a cockpit into the Super Hornet. As I said earlier, develop it, with the necessary time, but for FGFA or AMCA in future and not for LCA today.

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Let it be Light combat aircraft to serve the lower tier of IAF. On one side you complain that LCA is overweight, then you also want more hard points? They are already increasing its weapons load from 3600 to 5000kgs, is that not making the fighter more capable?



And you think 2 hard points makes it heavier than increasing the fuselage size, integrating more fuel tanks, a heavier radar, a heavier engine, addition avionics, while the fighter is 1t overweighted anyway?

Payload doesn't make the fighter more capable, when it don't have enough hardpoints to carry such loads. LCA has only 3 heavy / wet stations, the external stations are limited to WVR missiles, so no matter how much more payload LCA gets, there are only the 2 mid wingstations left to carry weapons. That's why it's more important to either add hardpoints, or to free hardpoints by increasing internal fuel.


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## INDIAISM

^^Or maybe for the future upgrade or Mk 3{whatever they will call it} of LCA and Mig29K....

To be frank at present IAF need a fighter jet which can replace vintage era fighters like Mig 21 and Mig 27 ASAP....

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## sancho

INDIAISM said:


> ^^*Or maybe for the future upgrade or Mk 3*{whatever they will call it} of LCA and Mig29K....
> 
> To be frank at present IAF need a fighter jet which can replace vintage era fighters like Mig 21 and Mig 27 ASAP....



Exactly, but the fact that they dream about an MK3 version and call it stealth, while they didn't even get MK1 ready again shows that our industry has other requirements than our forces.

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## INDIAISM

sancho said:


> Exactly, but the fact that they dream about an MK3 version and call it stealth, while they didn't even get MK1 ready again shows that our industry has other requirements than our forces.


Sir to be frank DRDO and Hal are behaving like a toddler who has just begun to walk and he has already started dreaming about representing his country in olympics 100 Mtr race..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> And you think 2 hard points makes it heavier than increasing the fuselage size, integrating more fuel tanks, a heavier radar, a heavier engine, addition avionics, while the fighter is 1t overweighted anyway?



Adding two hard points will require strengthening of the whole wing structure and fuselage that is a very complex and time consuming process. ADA is doing what minimum is required to satisfy the IAF requirements and they know that not having extra hard points wont make LCA any less capable. Same is true for IAF as they didnot ask for extra hard points. 



sancho said:


> Payload doesn't make the fighter more capable, when it don't have enough hardpoints to carry such loads. LCA has only 3 heavy / wet stations, the external stations are limited to WVR missiles, so no matter how much more payload LCA gets, there are only the 2 mid wingstations left to carry weapons. That's why it's more important to either add hardpoints, or to free hardpoints by increasing internal fuel.



So as per you ADA guys are fools (actually you think that which is clear by most of your posts on LCA) by highlighting increased payload capability? Current Total weapons load capability of hard points is 5500 Kgs, but LCA can only carry 3600 Kgs. MK2 will be able to carry 5000 Kgs that is close to its full capability. It will be able to use multi-racks for AAMs, LGBs etc., which will make it far more capable than MK1. Also, additional fuel will mean no requirement of fuel tanks i.e. availability of hard points for long missions.


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## BlueDot_in_Space




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## Abingdonboy

Check out my vid on this:






@BlueDot_in_Space

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## arp2041

NICE VIDEO @Abingdonboy 

But, for next time i'll recommend just a music in the background than a song.

Anyways, carry on the GOOD WORK.

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Adding two hard points will require strengthening of the whole wing structure and fuselage that is a very complex and time consuming process.



Not really and the Swedes have even shown us how!







They have integrated a new engine, therefor increased the air intake size and re-designed the fusalage. Since they had to do it anway, they also figured how to make the fighter more capable, with within these changes, that's why they also increased the internal fuel, which reduces external fuel tanks and added up to 2 more fuselage hardpoints, while the wings remains the same, except that the gears are positioned below them now.





BlueDot_in_Space said:


> It will be able to use multi-racks for AAMs, LGBs etc., which will make it far more capable than MK1.



There are no multi racks shown or mentioned so far and even if, you can't mix different weapons on the same pylons, that's why fighters often carry 2 x 500lb bombs, instead of 1 x 1000lb bomb, like the LCA does so far. 






But that still doesn't free any hardpoints to add BVR missiles during strike missions, that's why LCA will always need additional escorts with A2A config, unless the internal fuel is increased enough to replace at least 1 x fuel tank and free hardpoints on the wings. If that is not the case, the load configs of LCA MK1 and 2 won't be different, if at all MK2 might be able to carry bigger fuel tanks, but that's it. 


So lets sum it up:

Gripen NG / LCA MK2

New engine: Check / Check
Bigger air intakes: Check / Check
Re-designed fuselage: Check / Check
Increased internal fuel: Check / Check
Increased payload: Check / Check
Re-positioned gears: Check / Check (at least for N-LCA as reports from AI suggest)
Re-designed wings: Nope / Nope
*Additional hardpoints: Check / Nope
*

Result:

A Gripen NG can carry:

2 x wing fueltanks
2 x 2000lb LGBs
1 x LDP (missing in the pic above)
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles
=> *Load of more than 5t*

LCA MK2 can carry:

2 x wing fueltanks
*1* x 2000lb LGBs
1 x LDP (missing in the pic above)
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles
=> *Load of roughly 3.5t*

Which shows, that it doesn't matter if the MK2 has a maximum payload of possibly 5ts, since it has not enough hardpoints for weapons. While the Gripen NG not only increased the payload, but also the load capability with a minimum ammount of changes (only those, that were necessary anyway!)

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Abingdonboy said:


> Check out my vid on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @BlueDot_in_Space



One of the coolest videos!!! perfect track choice!! I hope to see more from you

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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> One of the coolest videos!!! perfect track choice!! I hope to see more from you



Thanks mate- stay tuned for more!

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Not really and the Swedes have even shown us how!



Swedes are doing it does not mean we also have to do it. They have years of experience in fighter design that will come handy which is not the case with ADA. Also, did IAF ask for more hard points? They asked for higher thrust engine only and not more hard points that means something. IAF knows what they are gonna use LCA for and they know that the number of hard points are sufficient for that role. 





sancho said:


> Not really and the Swedes have even shown us how!
> 
> 
> 
> But that still doesn't free any hardpoints to add BVR missiles during strike missions, that's why LCA will always need addition escorts with A2A config, unless the internal fuel is increased enough to replace at least 1 x fuel tank and free hardpoints of the wings. If that is not the case, the load configs of LCA MK1 and 2 won't be different, *if at all MK2 might be able to carry bigger fuel tanks, but that's it. *



Is it?
Assuming WVR <120 kgs, BVR < 250 Kgs, LGB =1000 Kgs


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Swedes are doing it does not mean we also have to do it. They have years of experience in fighter design that will come handy which is not the case with ADA.



True, but it shows that there was a good way to make LCA MK2 more capable than what ADA/DRDO have presented so far!




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Also, did IAF ask for more hard points? They asked for higher thrust engine only and not more hard points that means something.



Wrong, reports from AI confirms that it was IN that asked for the higher thrust engine and the new internal fuel tanks. Just like IAF never asked for touch screen displays for LCA MK2, like HALBIT or other companies are offering, but still these things are considered by ADA/DRDO as the lead parts of the project and that's silly part that they constantly show, since they don't understand how to do things simple, realistic and fast. 






BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Is it?
> Assuming WVR <120 kgs, BVR < 250 Kgs, LGB =1000 Kgs



Yes it is:

1200 LITER FUEL => 960Kg x 2 = 1920Kg
WVR missiles weighs around 90Kg, R73 105Kg x 2 = 180 - 210Kg 
BVR missiles only weights 150Kg x 2 = 300Kg 
A 2000lb LGB (GBU 24 for example) weighs around 900Kg 
An LDP weighs around 200Kg

All in all, around *3530Kg*

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> True, but it shows that there was a good way to make LCA MK2 more capable than what ADA/DRDO have presented so far!




You can always make a plane more capable, what is important is it should be capable enough for the role its designed for. LCA is a light fighter and for that role far more capable.



sancho said:


> Wrong, reports from AI confirms that *it was IN that asked for the higher thrust engine* and the new internal fuel tanks. Just like IAF never asked for touch screen displays for LCA MK2, like HALBIT or other companies are offering, but still these things are considered by ADA/DRDO as the lead parts of the project and that's silly part that they constantly show, since they don't understand how to do things simple, realistic and fast.


 
Which also confirms that in eyes of IAF LCA MK1 is more than capable for its required role and doesn't require higher thrust engine and additional hard points. You just proved yourself wrong on additional hard points and all the rants about LCA being not capable. 



sancho said:


> Yes it is:
> 1200 LITER FUEL => 960Kg x 2 = 1920Kg
> WVR missiles weighs around 90Kg, R73 105Kg x 2 = 180 - 210Kg
> BVR missiles only weights 150Kg x 2 = 300Kg
> A 2000lb LGB (GBU 24 for example) weighs around 900Kg
> An LDP weighs around 200Kg
> 
> All in all, around *3530Kg*



Allow me to add something

1200 LITER FUEL => 960Kg x 2 = 1920Kg
WVR missile 105Kg x 2 = 110 kgs 
*BVR missiles Astra mk1 (150 kgs), Derby (120 kgs), astra mk2 (>200 Kgs), R77 (150 kgs), R77M1 (226 kgs), meteor (185 Kgs) 185Kg x 4 = 800Kgs (multi-rack)*
* 2000lb LGB* (GBU 24 for example) weighs around 900Kg = 1000 Kgs
An LDP weighs around 200Kg

further changes can be made as per the requirement of IAF. 
Total : *4000 kgs* with enough room to add configurations with havier wepons, more fuel.


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Which also confirms that in eyes of IAF LCA MK1 is more than capable for its required role and doesn't require higher thrust engine and additional hard points. You just proved yourself wrong on additional hard points and all the rants about LCA being not capable.



 You might not like it, but the points I made are facts which you can't deny anymore. And I never said LCA is not capable, but without freeing hardpoints or adding new once, it will only able to carry the same strikeload as our 3th gen Jaguars and require dedicated escorts too. That is not the standard a 4th gen fighter should provide, even as a low end fighter and such changes would be more important to make the fighter more capable, than silly changes on the cockpit displays!

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## subincb

http://www.flickr.com/photos/93398182@N04/8491258861/in/photostream/lightbox/

Coutesy TARMAK007

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## rockstarIN

subincb said:


> 488085_379498795480785_779592883_n | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Coutesy TARMAK007



Means flares integrated into LCA..!!


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## kurup

^^^^^^









rockstar said:


> Means flares integrated into LCA..!!



There was a video of LCA circulating for quite some time which showed flare test .So it may not be a new addition.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> You might not like it, but the points I made are facts which you can't deny anymore. And I never said LCA is not capable, but without freeing hardpoints or adding new once, it will only able to carry the same strikeload as our 3th gen Jaguars and require dedicated escorts too. That is not the standard a 4th gen fighter should provide, even as a low end fighter and such changes would be more important to make the fighter more capable, than silly changes on the cockpit displays!



Why would I like to deny you your dream world? your harping on silly points like extra hard points when current hard points are sufficient for optimal loading and multi racks can also be used does not make them facts. Silly points like selectively arguing how 3rd gen Jaguar carries same payload weight and neglecting the fact that LCA is a far smaller plane than jaguar, but far more capable, says alot about your prejudice towards LCA And ADA.

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Why would I like to deny you your dream world? your harping on silly points like extra hard points when current hard points are sufficient for optimal loading and *multi racks can also be used* does not make them facts.



And I am the one that is dreaming. 

As I already explained, you can exchange 2 x 500lb LGBs with multi racks (which are not under development) instead of using 1 x 1000lb LGB today, but that still leaves no hardpoint for BVR missiles. We even upgrade Mig 29 and Mirage 2000s by adding more fuel capacity and HARDPOINTS (2 more for the Migs, 4 more for the Mirage), to make them more capable and you keep denying that this is important for a modern fighter. 
And you still fail to understand what is important for a fighter in terms of load capability, because neither the payload nor the size of a fighter is, but the numbers of hardpoints (which your wrong payload caculations showed as well! That's why LCA carries the same ammount of weapons and fuel tanks as the Jags in strike role.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> And I am the one that is dreaming.
> 
> As I already explained, you can exchange 2 x 500lb LGBs with multi racks (which are not under development) instead of using 1 x 1000lb LGB today, but that still leaves no hardpoint for BVR missiles. We even upgrade Mig 29 and Mirage 2000s by adding more fuel capacity and HARDPOINTS (2 more for the Migs, 4 more for the Mirage), to make them more capable and you keep denying that this is important for a modern fighter.
> And you still fail to understand what is important for a fighter in terms of load capability, because neither the payload nor the size of a fighter is, but the numbers of hardpoints (which your wrong payload caculations showed as well! That's why LCA carries the same ammount of weapons and fuel tanks as the Jags in strike role.




LCA MK2 can carry BVR on multi-racks on the mission requirements. If a LCA size fighter can carry a payload size of a much bigger Jaguar size fighter, then I think it is a far more capable fighter than what you have been projecting it to be. For the size of LCA, the current hard points are sufficient for optimal loading that even its user IAF understands.

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## fsayed

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> LCA MK2 can carry BVR on multi-racks on the mission requirements. If a LCA size fighter can carry a payload size of a much bigger Jaguar size fighter, then I think it is a far more capable fighter than what you have been projecting it to be. For the size of LCA, the current hard points are sufficient for optimal loading that even its user IAF understands.



mate this is my first post
dont u think its better to upgrade tejas in something like silent eagle f15 instead of working on amca. bcoz we r going to get fgfa aircraft from russia with full stealth tech hence we require semistealth huge number to beckbone of airforce just we need to add one more engine with big size like eurofighter


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## Black Widow

fsayed said:


> mate this is my first post
> dont u think its better to* upgrade tejas in something like silent eagle f15* instead of working on amca. bcoz we r going to get fgfa aircraft from russia with full stealth tech hence we require semistealth huge number to beckbone of airforce just we need to add one more engine with big size like eurofighter





Why not make Rajpal yadav to something like Arnold.. There are some limitation of systems, you can't stretch beyond some point. 

Why AMCA: The 5th gen features and Naval features will be kept in mind during design phase (LCA lack this in design phase). AMCA will give massive knowledge/experience/confidence to India. 

Why LCA: LCA will serve as filler in depreciating squadron. It will serve India to counter Pakistani FC1/MiG21 and 1000s of Chinese MiG21. . 

LCA MK II and further: yes there will be MKII, MKIII and so on. 

LCA will be served as testbed for many system.. Do you know which fighter plane tested SAAB Grippen subcomponent??? It was old generation SAAB Viggen. Do you know Which bird tested PAK-FA subcomponent?? It was old generation Su27 family. Similarly LCA will be used for testing subcomponent of AMCA and further developments.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2042 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,LSP2-252,PV5-36,LSP3-102,LSP4-65,LSP5-133,LSP7-24,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2046 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,*LSP2-253*,PV5-36,*LSP3-103*,LSP4-65,*LSP5-134*,*LSP7-25*,NP1-4)


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## sudhir007



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## Jayanta

Well my question is for how many years will people discuss about the LCA...aren't you guys bored now. Its like a never ending story....


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## sudhir007

Livefist: LCA Tejas Flight Test Chief's Candid Review Of Aircraft






This piece by the project director (flight test) on the LCA Tejas programme was presented earlier this month at the Aero India seminar. An enlightening read.

By Air Commodore K.A. Muthana, VSM

1. The Indian Light Combat aircraft (LCA) was conceived in the early eighties and is now on the threshold of entering squadron service. The legacy of this aircrafts&#8217; development has resulted in true challenges to deployment being faced at a very late stage. There are even insinuations that this aircraft has been more of a success to the scientists in lab coats than to the war fighter in flight suits. True; this fine aircraft has been hostage to a series of systemic shortcomings. There are significant lessons here for the Indian aviation industry. It is vitally important that these lessons are imbibed in order to move forward coherently in building a strong aeronautics industry in this country.

*AIM*

2. Aim of this paper is to critically examine the challenges faced in transitioning the LCA from design to deployment and thus learn lessons for the future.

SYSTEMIC SHORTCOMINGS

3. Higher Defense Management. A fundamental challenge has been the structure of the Indian higher defense management. Broadly speaking, there are three verticals within the Indian Ministry of Defense that steer this program. One such vertical is headed by a war fighter, another by a bureaucrat and the third by a technocrat. In this totally State funded and State managed program, interdepartmental oversight has been lacking. It is necessary that a single political entity take charge of such projects to attribute responsibility and demand accountability. Even if private players become significant, interdepartmental co-ordination would be possible only by an informed and responsible political entity.

4. Clarity on Standards. The base document for development of LCA is a beautifully crafted Air Staff Requirement that was clearly ahead of its time and is relevant even today, nearly three decades later. This document primarily restricted itself to stating performance requirements. It is very interesting to note that the country in which aviation is widely accepted to have been born, the USA, (I say widely accepted because I have heard Russians say otherwise), through a document generally referred to as the Perry Document adopted a similar procedure in 1994! The ASR document however, mandated the use of US military specifications and standards of the day as the guiding document for design. The relevant standards and specifications were to have been culled out by D Aero at DRDO HQ. Any concessions were to be sought from IAF HQ. There is no evidence to show that a comprehensive process was followed. This apparent lapse has lead to a number of challenges in design that we face today; so close to deployment.

5. Clarity on Path to Certification. In many ways this is the first fighter aircraft design and development program in India, after a gap of about four decades. Design expertise from the old program of HF-24 was not available, and moreover, the LCA envisaged a quantum leap in technology. To the Indian certification agency also therefore, this was &#8216;learning in progress&#8217;. The path to certification is evolving along with the aircraft. The extent of analyses and testing required tended to be a little open ended. Comprehensive documentation of the path to certification in this program will hugely benefit future programs.

6. Agencies for Design, Development and Support. If the process of design itself is to be accomplished by two design houses working under two different verticals mentioned in Para 2 above, there would be a price to pay. While ADA had a single point focus, clearly HAL ARDC had multiple foci. HALs indigenous programs clearly have priority within that organization and therefore so do resource allocation. The aircraft would continue to develop during its lifetime and all round support would be necessary. The responsibility for, post deployment maintenance of documentation, software and their periodic up gradation remains open ended. Unless resolved, this story of an inconvenient marriage would be continuing saga and have adverse effects on the product during its entire lifetime.

7. Customer Involvement. During the design and development process itself, it is vital that comprehensive knowledge of aviation in general and military aviation in particular is made available to the program. Scientists and design engineers do not have that knowledge. The Indian Air Force is the only repository of comprehensive military aviation knowledge in this country. Either its expertise was not sought or it was denied. Also we probably have the only aviation companies in the world that do not have aviators embedded into design teams. As a result, while the designers concentrated on getting the technology airborne, the design necessities of turning the aircraft into a maintainable, deployable and employable weapon platform were missed to a large extent. Originally a reluctant customer, the Indian Air Force involved itself sufficiently only after contracting for supply of the aircraft in 2006. It was late in the program and hundreds of &#8216;Requests for Action&#8217; had to be raised in order to retrieve the situation to some extent, but this lead to time and cost overruns.

8. Evaluation of Prototypes. In the process of transitioning from design and development to series production, limited or otherwise, an essential step is to undertake a formal comprehensive evaluation of the prototype vehicles. It is in this process that the platforms testability and therefore maintainability, and its suitability for deployment can be assessed and recommendations made for the required standard of preparation (SOP) for series production (SP) aircraft. Having neglected to undertake this step, limited series production aircraft are worthy of remaining test aircraft only and SOP of series production aircraft continues to evolve!

9. Development of Avionics Package. No customer would be willing to accept obsolescent equipment at induction. Slow progress of the program coupled with rapid development in the field of electronics played its part in inefficient development of the avionics package on the aircraft. The initial focus on airframe and basic platform issues led to a delay in requirement generation and creation of mission specific software modules. Staggered integration of various mission systems also precluded comprehensive global software development, and allowed development effort to be frittered away in development of patches and modules catering only for immediate needs of the hour. Lack of operational requirements expertise in design teams led to replicating Mirage cockpit logic on the aircraft without exploiting the significantly advanced hardware architecture of this aircraft.

A major course correction had to be effected when the IAF finally got into the program. Lack of realistic evaluation and simulation tools meant that evaluation in most cases was carried out in the air for the first time leading to delays due to the requirement of even small fixes having to go through the complete clearance cycle.

10. Process of Transitioning from Design to Manufacture. There are many challenges that we face in transitioning from design to manufacture. One is the necessity to convert frozen design drawings into production drawings. Purportedly an elaborate process that has to be undertaken by dedicated integration teams. These have then to be cleared by the certification agency and followed diligently by the manufacturing and quality control agencies. Other shortcomings are; inability to meet manufacturing tolerances; non availability of correct jigs, fixtures and tooling to meet DAL requirements; non availability of suitable calibrating equipment; and, lack of trained manpower. These challenges directly affect the quality of manufacture.

11. Concurrent Development of Support Systems. The necessity to concurrently design and develop support equipment like tools, testers and ground equipment (TTGE) must not be underestimated. Designers have to understand that the testers that they develop to enable the design process would be unsuitable for use by the war fighter. What is required are simple testers ruggedized to be deployable and employable in the field, by young air warriors with limited education, in order to establish serviceability of a platform to undertake a mission. Similarly, ground support equipment has to be suited well, be light and durable for easy employability and transportability. Such support is vital to deploy the aircraft quickly and repeatedly and thus exploit the inherent advantages of airpower. Development of mission support systems like planning & debrief systems, simulators etc have been lagging and will affect ease of deployment.

12. Flight & Maintenance Manuals. Before the LCA can be deployed, it is obviously necessary that the users are adequately trained to maintain and operate this aircraft. For training to be effective, prior generation of deliverable documentation is essential. These documents will have to be upgraded and supported through the life time of the aircraft. Generation and sustenance of flight and maintenance publications is a major activity and deserves the creation of a separate technical documentation group. Designer&#8217;s documents have to be culled down and adapted to the requirements of maintenance manuals which are suited to the not so highly qualified maintenance crew. Information further culled and adapted from these manuals, when enhanced by the addition of flight handling information, translate into a set of flight manuals which are used by the aircrew. Generation of documentation deliverable to the customer has been hampered by the absence of a cohesive and sustainable structure.

13. Simulators. It is important that maintenance and flight simulators are available to train the customer ground crew and aircrew. Based on the contract between the IAF and HAL, ADA did develop maintenance simulators. With the flight simulators, however, it was a strange story. While the ASR did envisage the requirement of a simulator before deployment, no such development was undertaken. Along with the contract for supply of aircraft, funds were allocated by the Government of India for a simulator to be built by HAL on &#8216;Build, Operate and Maintain&#8217; (BOM) basis. This was a new concept and years were lost in deciding whether funding would be on the capital route or on the revenue route. As a result there would be no representative flight simulator available for use by the customer aircrew. The situation will be aggravated by the non availability of a trainer variant of the aircraft in the required time frame.

14. Operating Infrastructure. Infrastructure necessary for operating the aircraft has to be created at the intended base of operation, well in time for deployment. Although the requirement was projected well in time procedural delays have ensured that the work on ground is yet to start.

15. Professional Program Management. It is inconceivable that a program of this complexity can be run efficiently without the assistance of professional program managers who constantly advice the technocrat leadership. This would avoid a large number of issues cropping up at random, the thread being lost and the same issues cropping up again months later with little progress having been made! Critical path has to be continually identified and attended to. Cost and time overruns have to be tracked by professional program managers using powerful software. Only then can the customer be given a viable timeframe for deployment to enable his planning process. If he has to repeatedly throttle back, he will lose interest and look for alternatives. And that would be a tragedy for aeronautics in this country!

*CONCLUSION*

16. Tejas is a wonderful flying machine. It deserved to be in squadron service years ago. Remedial action on many of the shortcomings commented upon, if implemented even now, will favorably impact timelines for IOC and FOC of the Tejas Mk 1 aircraft. Favorable impact on Tejas Mk 2 and other future programs will be enormous.

Air Cmde KA Muthana, VSM, was commissioned in the fighter stream of Indian Air Force on 11 June 1981. He is a graduate of the Indian Air Force Test Pilots School. His on job experience as a test pilot include that of being the Jaguar Projects Pilot at Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, Chief Test Pilot at HAL's Nasik facility, Project Pilot with Sukhoi-30 MKI Project Team at Moscow, Russia and Director of Aircraft Upgrade at IAF HQ, New Delhi. He has been heading the National Flight Test Centre as Project Director (Flight Test) at ADA, Bangalore since 01 July 2011. This paper was presented at [PDF[ the 2013 Aero India Seminar earlier this month and is re-posted here.

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## Black Widow

Jayanta said:


> Well my question is for how many years will people discuss about the LCA...aren't you guys bored now. Its like a never ending story....






LCA is ready, It can be delivered to IAF any time they ask..

LCA:
1. Can drop bomb (A2G role)
2. fire Missiles
3. Fly at night 
4. Perform basic and advance manuver.
etc...

It is almost inducted, Question is how keen IAF is ...

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## Jayanta

Black Widow said:


> LCA is ready, It can be delivered to IAF any time they ask..
> 
> LCA:
> 1. Can drop bomb (A2G role)
> 2. fire Missiles
> 3. Fly at night
> 4. Perform basic and advance manuver.
> etc...
> 
> It is almost inducted, Question is how keen IAF is ...



Can somebody post some videos of the same...especially if it is of IAF Iron Fists 2013. I have seen videos of LCA dropping bomb and firing R-73.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

fsayed said:


> mate this is my first post
> dont u think its better to upgrade tejas in something like silent eagle f15 instead of working on amca. bcoz we r going to get fgfa aircraft from russia with full stealth tech hence we require semistealth huge number to beckbone of airforce just we need to add one more engine with big size like eurofighter



Upgrading LCA into silent eagle 15 with two engines translates into developing an all new plane in the medium category, i.e., AMCA. LCA is already semi stealth due to its small size, 45% composite content, Y air ducts and RAM paint. In the future, MK3 will be stealthier with extreme composite use and further shaping. ADA may also go for thrust vectoring in future engine upgrades that will preclude need for vertical tail, thus reducing weight and RCS. This will require mastering FCS with thrust vector control


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## Jayanta

Some silly question: 1. Has the IAF committed for AMCA when FGFA has a bright chance of getting inducted by 2020??...Or is AMCA meant primarily for the Indian Navy?

2. If IAF is not interested in AMCA why not carry on with the LCA project...with single engine MK2, and a double engine medium sized MK3??...Is the DRDO is dubbing the MK3 as AMCA? 

People with some knowledge kindly throw some light....


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## Jayanta

Some silly question: 1. Has the IAF committed for AMCA when FGFA has a bright chance of getting inducted by 2020??...Or is AMCA meant primarily for the Indian Navy?

2. If IAF is not interested in AMCA why not carry on with the LCA project...with single engine MK2, and a double engine medium sized MK3??...Is the DRDO is dubbing the MK3 as AMCA? 

People with some knowledge kindly throw some light....


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## sancho

fsayed said:


> mate this is my first post
> dont u think its better to upgrade tejas in something like silent eagle f15 instead of working on amca. bcoz we r going to get fgfa aircraft from russia with full stealth tech hence we require semistealth huge number to beckbone of airforce just we need to add one more engine with big size like eurofighter



First of all, welcome to PDF!

Secondly, you are absolutely right about the importance of upgrade 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with lower RCS features in mind, instead of wasting money on a 2nd stealth fighter with no operational advantage. But changes like adding CFTs with weaponbays is hardly doable with the LCA, because the gear bay would be in the way. Even adding a stealthy weapon pod like on the Silent Hornet is difficult, due to size limitations on the centerline hardpoint and the lack of fuel capacity.
The Su 30 MKI and the Rafale on the other hand offer good base plattforms to add weaponbays /pods and offer similar, cost-effective operational advantages as the US Silent fighters. Since IAF will operate these fighters for the next 2-3 decades, this is exactly the field in which our indistry should look for own developments, because it's simpler and would increase the Indian content at these fighters. Instead we go for the more complitcated way again for the wrong reaons.

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> LCA is already semi stealth due to its small size, 45% composite content, Y air ducts and RAM paint. In the future, MK3 will be stealthier with extreme composite use and further shaping.



Not really, these features gives it a low general RCS, but has nothing to do with stealth! Stealth requires to carry weapons and fuel internally in weaponbays or weapon pods. Just like the composites have only minor part of the RCS reduction, the main part are radar absorbing coatings, the general small size, but it all means nothing the minute external payloads will be added, since they dramatically increase the RCS again. Not to the extend as older fighters had, but still far away from beeing stealthy.



Jayanta said:


> Some silly question: 1. Has the IAF committed for AMCA ...Or is AMCA meant primarily for the Indian Navy?



No and sadly no, both forces have shown interest, but so far it's only an industrial project aimed on the air force.




Jayanta said:


> 2. If IAF is not interested in AMCA why not carry on with the LCA project...with single engine MK2, and a double engine medium sized MK3??



LCA will be carried on, that's why the MK2 will be developed and adding another engine is not the key difference between LCA and AMCA, but that the latter is meant to be a NG stealth fighter.

If you ask reasonable questions, you will get reasonable answers!


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## anant_s

*LCA Tejas Flight Test Chief's Candid Review Of Aircraft*









> This piece by the project director (flight test) on the LCA Tejas programme was presented earlier this month at the Aero India seminar. An enlightening read.
> 
> 
> By Air Commodore K.A. Muthana, VSM
> 
> 
> 1. The Indian Light Combat aircraft (LCA) was conceived in the early eighties and is now on the threshold of entering squadron service. The legacy of this aircrafts&#8217; development has resulted in true challenges to deployment being faced at a very late stage. There are even insinuations that this aircraft has been more of a success to the scientists in lab coats than to the war fighter in flight suits. True; this fine aircraft has been hostage to a series of systemic shortcomings. There are significant lessons here for the Indian aviation industry. It is vitally important that these lessons are imbibed in order to move forward coherently in building a strong aeronautics industry in this country.
> 
> 
> AIM
> 
> 
> 2. Aim of this paper is to critically examine the challenges faced in transitioning the LCA from design to deployment and thus learn lessons for the future.
> 
> 
> SYSTEMIC SHORTCOMINGS
> 
> 
> 3. Higher Defense Management. A fundamental challenge has been the structure of the Indian higher defense management. Broadly speaking, there are three verticals within the Indian Ministry of Defense that steer this program. One such vertical is headed by a war fighter, another by a bureaucrat and the third by a technocrat. In this totally State funded and State managed program, interdepartmental oversight has been lacking. It is necessary that a single political entity take charge of such projects to attribute responsibility and demand accountability. Even if private players become significant, interdepartmental co-ordination would be possible only by an informed and responsible political entity.
> 
> 
> 4. Clarity on Standards. The base document for development of LCA is a beautifully crafted Air Staff Requirement that was clearly ahead of its time and is relevant even today, nearly three decades later. This document primarily restricted itself to stating performance requirements. It is very interesting to note that the country in which aviation is widely accepted to have been born, the USA, (I say widely accepted because I have heard Russians say otherwise), through a document generally referred to as the Perry Document adopted a similar procedure in 1994! The ASR document however, mandated the use of US military specifications and standards of the day as the guiding document for design. The relevant standards and specifications were to have been culled out by D Aero at DRDO HQ. Any concessions were to be sought from IAF HQ. There is no evidence to show that a comprehensive process was followed. This apparent lapse has lead to a number of challenges in design that we face today; so close to deployment.
> 
> 
> 5. Clarity on Path to Certification. In many ways this is the first fighter aircraft design and development program in India, after a gap of about four decades. Design expertise from the old program of HF-24 was not available, and moreover, the LCA envisaged a quantum leap in technology. To the Indian certification agency also therefore, this was &#8216;learning in progress&#8217;. The path to certification is evolving along with the aircraft. The extent of analyses and testing required tended to be a little open ended. Comprehensive documentation of the path to certification in this program will hugely benefit future programs.
> 
> 
> 6. Agencies for Design, Development and Support. If the process of design itself is to be accomplished by two design houses working under two different verticals mentioned in Para 2 above, there would be a price to pay. While ADA had a single point focus, clearly HAL ARDC had multiple foci. HALs indigenous programs clearly have priority within that organization and therefore so do resource allocation. The aircraft would continue to develop during its lifetime and all round support would be necessary. The responsibility for, post deployment maintenance of documentation, software and their periodic up gradation remains open ended. Unless resolved, this story of an inconvenient marriage would be continuing saga and have adverse effects on the product during its entire lifetime.
> 
> 
> 7. Customer Involvement. During the design and development process itself, it is vital that comprehensive knowledge of aviation in general and military aviation in particular is made available to the program. Scientists and design engineers do not have that knowledge. The Indian Air Force is the only repository of comprehensive military aviation knowledge in this country. Either its expertise was not sought or it was denied. Also we probably have the only aviation companies in the world that do not have aviators embedded into design teams. As a result, while the designers concentrated on getting the technology airborne, the design necessities of turning the aircraft into a maintainable, deployable and employable weapon platform were missed to a large extent. Originally a reluctant customer, the Indian Air Force involved itself sufficiently only after contracting for supply of the aircraft in 2006. It was late in the program and hundreds of &#8216;Requests for Action&#8217; had to be raised in order to retrieve the situation to some extent, but this lead to time and cost overruns.
> 
> 
> 8. Evaluation of Prototypes. In the process of transitioning from design and development to series production, limited or otherwise, an essential step is to undertake a formal comprehensive evaluation of the prototype vehicles. It is in this process that the platforms testability and therefore maintainability, and its suitability for deployment can be assessed and recommendations made for the required standard of preparation (SOP) for series production (SP) aircraft. Having neglected to undertake this step, limited series production aircraft are worthy of remaining test aircraft only and SOP of series production aircraft continues to evolve!
> 
> 
> 9. Development of Avionics Package. No customer would be willing to accept obsolescent equipment at induction. Slow progress of the program coupled with rapid development in the field of electronics played its part in inefficient development of the avionics package on the aircraft. The initial focus on airframe and basic platform issues led to a delay in requirement generation and creation of mission specific software modules. Staggered integration of various mission systems also precluded comprehensive global software development, and allowed development effort to be frittered away in development of patches and modules catering only for immediate needs of the hour. Lack of operational requirements expertise in design teams led to replicating Mirage cockpit logic on the aircraft without exploiting the significantly advanced hardware architecture of this aircraft.
> 
> 
> A major course correction had to be effected when the IAF finally got into the program. Lack of realistic evaluation and simulation tools meant that evaluation in most cases was carried out in the air for the first time leading to delays due to the requirement of even small fixes having to go through the complete clearance cycle.
> 
> 
> 10. Process of Transitioning from Design to Manufacture. There are many challenges that we face in transitioning from design to manufacture. One is the necessity to convert frozen design drawings into production drawings. Purportedly an elaborate process that has to be undertaken by dedicated integration teams. These have then to be cleared by the certification agency and followed diligently by the manufacturing and quality control agencies. Other shortcomings are; inability to meet manufacturing tolerances; non availability of correct jigs, fixtures and tooling to meet DAL requirements; non availability of suitable calibrating equipment; and, lack of trained manpower. These challenges directly affect the quality of manufacture.
> 
> 
> 11. Concurrent Development of Support Systems. The necessity to concurrently design and develop support equipment like tools, testers and ground equipment (TTGE) must not be underestimated. Designers have to understand that the testers that they develop to enable the design process would be unsuitable for use by the war fighter. What is required are simple testers ruggedized to be deployable and employable in the field, by young air warriors with limited education, in order to establish serviceability of a platform to undertake a mission. Similarly, ground support equipment has to be suited well, be light and durable for easy employability and transportability. Such support is vital to deploy the aircraft quickly and repeatedly and thus exploit the inherent advantages of airpower. Development of mission support systems like planning & debrief systems, simulators etc have been lagging and will affect ease of deployment.
> 
> 
> 12. Flight & Maintenance Manuals. Before the LCA can be deployed, it is obviously necessary that the users are adequately trained to maintain and operate this aircraft. For training to be effective, prior generation of deliverable documentation is essential. These documents will have to be upgraded and supported through the life time of the aircraft. Generation and sustenance of flight and maintenance publications is a major activity and deserves the creation of a separate technical documentation group. Designer&#8217;s documents have to be culled down and adapted to the requirements of maintenance manuals which are suited to the not so highly qualified maintenance crew. Information further culled and adapted from these manuals, when enhanced by the addition of flight handling information, translate into a set of flight manuals which are used by the aircrew. Generation of documentation deliverable to the customer has been hampered by the absence of a cohesive and sustainable structure.
> 
> 
> 13. Simulators. It is important that maintenance and flight simulators are available to train the customer ground crew and aircrew. Based on the contract between the IAF and HAL, ADA did develop maintenance simulators. With the flight simulators, however, it was a strange story. While the ASR did envisage the requirement of a simulator before deployment, no such development was undertaken. Along with the contract for supply of aircraft, funds were allocated by the Government of India for a simulator to be built by HAL on &#8216;Build, Operate and Maintain&#8217; (BOM) basis. This was a new concept and years were lost in deciding whether funding would be on the capital route or on the revenue route. As a result there would be no representative flight simulator available for use by the customer aircrew. The situation will be aggravated by the non availability of a trainer variant of the aircraft in the required time frame.
> 
> 
> 14. Operating Infrastructure. Infrastructure necessary for operating the aircraft has to be created at the intended base of operation, well in time for deployment. Although the requirement was projected well in time procedural delays have ensured that the work on ground is yet to start.
> 
> 
> 15. Professional Program Management. It is inconceivable that a program of this complexity can be run efficiently without the assistance of professional program managers who constantly advice the technocrat leadership. This would avoid a large number of issues cropping up at random, the thread being lost and the same issues cropping up again months later with little progress having been made! Critical path has to be continually identified and attended to. Cost and time overruns have to be tracked by professional program managers using powerful software. Only then can the customer be given a viable timeframe for deployment to enable his planning process. If he has to repeatedly throttle back, he will lose interest and look for alternatives. And that would be a tragedy for aeronautics in this country!
> 
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> 
> 16. Tejas is a wonderful flying machine. It deserved to be in squadron service years ago. Remedial action on many of the shortcomings commented upon, if implemented even now, will favorably impact timelines for IOC and FOC of the Tejas Mk 1 aircraft. Favorable impact on Tejas Mk 2 and other future programs will be enormous.
> 
> 
> Air Cmde KA Muthana, VSM, was commissioned in the fighter stream of Indian Air Force on 11 June 1981. He is a graduate of the Indian Air Force Test Pilots School. His on job experience as a test pilot include that of being the Jaguar Projects Pilot at Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, Chief Test Pilot at HAL's Nasik facility, Project Pilot with Sukhoi-30 MKI Project Team at Moscow, Russia and Director of Aircraft Upgrade at IAF HQ, New Delhi. He has been heading the National Flight Test Centre as Project Director (Flight Test) at ADA, Bangalore since 01 July 2011. This paper was presented at [PDF[ the 2013 Aero India Seminar earlier this month and is re-posted here.



http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/02/lca-tejas-flight-test-chiefs-candid.html


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Not really, these features gives it a low general RCS, but has nothing to do with stealth! Stealth requires to carry weapons and fuel internally in weaponbays or weapon pods. Just like the composites have only minor part of the RCS reduction, the main part are radar absorbing coatings, the general small size, but it all means nothing the minute external payloads will be added, since they dramatically increase the RCS again. Not to the extend as older fighters had, but still far away from beeing stealthy.



I was just taking a leaf out of Typhoon's book 

Eurofighter: *News Detail


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## Water Car Engineer



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## fsayed

sancho said:


> First of all, welcome to PDF!
> 
> Secondly, you are absolutely right about the importance of upgrade 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with lower RCS features in mind, instead of wasting money on a 2nd stealth fighter with no operational advantage. But changes like adding CFTs with weaponbays is hardly doable with the LCA, because the gear bay would be in the way. Even adding a stealthy weapon pod like on the Silent Hornet is difficult, due to size limitations on the centerline hardpoint and the lack of fuel capacity.
> The Su 30 MKI and the Rafale on the other hand offer good base plattforms to add weaponbays /pods and offer similar, cost-effective operational advantages as the US Silent fighters. Since IAF will operate these fighters for the next 2-3 decades, this is exactly the field in which our indistry should look for own developments, because it's simpler and would increase the Indian content at these fighters. Instead we go for the more complitcated way again for the wrong reaons.



sancho superb knowledage about aerospace but i was talking lca to base design like dhruv become rudra n rudra into lch and who knows lch into heavy attack helicopter like apache using same base design for new product and how say thanks on pdf plzz guide bro


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## subincb

TARMAK007 update

All eyes on Tejas@ Pokhran today


As a run-up to Iron Fist, Tejas platforms LSP-2 and LSP-7 have together undertaken around 20 mission in Pokhran, so far. Team ADA-HAL is making maximum use of this free-firing opportunity to check the efficiency of the weapon-firing capabilities of Tejas. "So far, it was bull's eye missions. We fired R-73 missiles and dropped 1000 pound bombs. On the ***," a source told Tarmak007 via text message from Pokhran. (Guys, I have no method sitting in Bangalore to check whether these claims are right or wrong!)

The LSP-5 is on a stand-by. But, today evening LSP-7 will be doing the bombing duties, with the aircraft being latest and closest to the production version. This will be for the first time Tejas will perform an important mission in front of an international audience. Tune to DD today evening for live action.

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## Black Widow

Jayanta said:


> Some silly question: 1. Has the IAF committed for AMCA when FGFA has a bright chance of getting inducted by 2020??...Or is AMCA meant primarily for the Indian Navy?
> 
> 2. If IAF is not interested in AMCA why not carry on with the LCA project...with single engine MK2, and a double engine medium sized MK3??...Is the DRDO is dubbing the MK3 as AMCA?
> 
> People with some knowledge kindly throw some light....






No question is Silly Question.. 

1. IAF is committed to AMCA, AMCA will be medium class 5th gen fighter (Medium class like MiG29,Rafael,EFT, F16 etc). While FGFA will be heavy class 5th gen fighter (Heavy class like F22,Su30,F15). Since IAF want a High-Low mix, they will definitely look for medium class 5th gen fighter, If not AMCA then F35. 
Indian Navy is pragmatic, till date they have not shown any interest in AMCA (officially AFAIK) but I am sure they will definitely come in and look for N-AMCA.

2. IAF is keen for AMCA, so there is no point in double engine LCA. But be sure that LCA MK II and other upgrades will continue.

3. AMCA will be totally different plane from LCA. right from design phase. So both are different projects, both have there value in IAF inventory.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> First of all, welcome to PDF!
> 
> Secondly, you are absolutely right about the importance of upgrade 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with lower RCS features in mind, instead of wasting money on a 2nd stealth fighter with no operational advantage. But changes like adding CFTs with weaponbays is hardly doable with the LCA, because the gear bay would be in the way. Even adding a stealthy weapon pod like on the Silent Hornet is difficult, due to size limitations on the centerline hardpoint and the lack of fuel capacity.
> *The Su 30 MKI and the Rafale on the other hand offer good base plattforms to add weaponbays /pods and offer similar, cost-effective operational advantages as the US Silent fighters.* Since IAF will operate these fighters for the next 2-3 decades, this is exactly the field in which our indistry should look for own developments, because it's simpler and would increase the Indian content at these fighters. Instead we go for the more complitcated way again for the wrong reaons.



That's where Super MKI comes in


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> I was just taking a leaf out of Typhoon's book



Then you didn't understand what they wrote, because they say they admit that don't have a stealth design:



> Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry. The carriage of weapons on conventional under-wing pylons negates the stealth design.
> 
> The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features.



Secondly, you shouldn't take Eurofighter or Saab PR seriously, they are the most imaginary sources at all. Saab often is tweaking their specs, to make Gripen look better and the EF PR makes it way more capable than it is, to compare itself with the multi role capabilities of Rafale, or even with the performance of F22 and F35. The EF has NG features (high maneuverability, SC, passive detection, in future even AESA and 3D TVC), but is neither a real multi role fighter now, or is even close to be a stealth fighter, or even a semi stealth fighter as you said earlier.




fsayed said:


> i was talking lca to base design like dhruv become rudra n rudra into lch



Which is not needed, since IAF will operate many twin engine MKIs and most importantly medium class Rafales anyway. What they needed and still need, is a cost-effective fighter on the low end, LCA!


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Then you didn't understand what they wrote, because they say they admit that don't have a stealth design:



Let me quote for you from the article what they claim 



> The Eurofighter Typhoon is, by any standard, a stealthy aircraft.






sancho said:


> Secondly, you shouldn't take Eurofighter or Saab PR seriously, they are the most imaginary sources at all. Saab often is tweaking their specs, to make Gripen look better and the EF PR makes it way more capable than it is, to compare itself with the multi role capabilities of Rafale, or even with the performance of F22 and F35. The EF has NG features (high maneuverability, SC, passive detection, in future even AESA and 3D TVC), but is neither a real multi role fighter now, or is even close to be a stealth fighter, or even a semi stealth fighter* as you said earlier*.




I only produced their claim.


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## Water Car Engineer



Reactions: Like Like:
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## indiatester

subincb said:


> TARMAK007 update
> 
> All eyes on Tejas@ Pokhran today
> 
> 
> As a run-up to Iron Fist, Tejas platforms LSP-2 and LSP-7 have together undertaken around 20 mission in Pokhran, so far. Team ADA-HAL is making maximum use of this free-firing opportunity to check the efficiency of the weapon-firing capabilities of Tejas. "So far, it was bull's eye missions. We fired R-73 missiles and dropped 1000 pound bombs. On the ***," a source told Tarmak007 via text message from Pokhran. (Guys, I have no method sitting in Bangalore to check whether these claims are right or wrong!)
> 
> The LSP-5 is on a stand-by. But, today evening LSP-7 will be doing the bombing duties, with the aircraft being latest and closest to the production version. This will be for the first time Tejas will perform an important mission in front of an international audience. Tune to DD today evening for live action.



How did it do today btw?


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> 1. IAF is committed to AMCA


No they aren't, Air Chief Browne just said at Aero India, that ADA/DRDO should develop it, but that it needs to be seen if the result is 5th generation or not. That's the point, IAF don't need it with FGFA as the prime option, but why should they reject a project that is developed FOR them, without them asking for it at this point. If it turns out to be a success, they take it, if not they will reject it like HTT40 and simply stick with FGFA.



Black Widow said:


> Indian Navy is pragmatic, till date they have not shown any interest in AMCA



Check this:

Indian Navy Has Shown Interest In Advanced MCA Project | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


The problem is again, that ADA/DRDO underestimates the required changes needed for a naval 5th gen fighter, especially if it needs to be catapult capable. That's why they develop it for IAF in first place and currently have no intention for a naval version, as stated at AI, while the navy has a real need and would fully commit to it. 
The same nonsense like we saw with LCA / N-LCA!




IND151 said:


> That's where Super MKI comes in



Sadly it don't, since it doesn't have any weaponbays, or weapon pods. The only point that fits with that regard is the complete internal carriage of fuel.




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> I only produced their claim.



I meant what you said about LCA, beeing semi stealth.


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> No they aren't, Air Chief Browne just said at Aero India, that ADA/DRDO should develop it, but that it needs to be seen if the result is 5th generation or not. That's the point, IAF don't need it with FGFA as the prime option, but why should they reject a project that is developed FOR them, without them asking for it at this point. If it turns out to be a success, they take it, if not they will reject it like HTT40 and simply stick with FGFA.
> 
> 
> 
> Check this:
> 
> Indian Navy Has Shown Interest In Advanced MCA Project | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 
> The problem is again, that ADA/DRDO underestimates the required changes needed for a naval 5th gen fighter, especially if it needs to be catapult capable. That's why they develop it for IAF in first place and currently have no intention for a naval version, as stated at AI, while the navy has a real need and would fully commit to it.
> The same nonsense like we saw with LCA / N-LCA!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly it don't, since it doesn't have any weaponbays, or weapon pods. The only point that fits with that regard is the complete internal carriage of fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I meant what you said about LCA, beeing semi stealth.





May be you are true, coz IAF has started showing is color. 

Earlier IAF was keen for 20 Tonn class fighter, now they have changed it to 25 Tonn Category. Let us see how many changes IAF will do in development period of MACA...


IAF is committed to kill one more project before its birth...


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## Black Widow

Sancho, the problem is not DRDO/ADA, The problem is IAF and Political class. These ppl are not freezing requirements. These ppl are changing requirements and will change requirements in development cycle. 

@N-AMCA: Let Navy be clear if they want CATOBAR or SATOBAR N-AMCA, now they are asking for SATOBAR after 30% completeion they will ask for CATOBAR. 
@IAF AMCA: IAF have added extra 5 tonn (now it will be 25 Tonn) Later they will ask for 20 Tonn.. 

Indian defence procurement is cause of all evil. Once Supreme court bann arms import (finshed product) then only DRDO/ADA can flourish, else be ready for sabotaged...

Nature of Sabotage (Changing requirements, Making un-realisable requirement, Putting sand in fuel tank, Cutting wires, Crashing planes and so on)


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Sancho, the problem is not DRDO/ADA, The problem is IAF and Political class. These ppl are not freezing requirements. These ppl are changing requirements and will change requirements in development cycle.



Oh please not that again, why people always trying to find excuses for DRDO/ADA? 

The fact is, they are not looking at the needs of our forces, or even of Indias security, but only at their own interests, that's why they switching to developments like AMCA or AURA, whey they could contribute way more if they fix LCA, offer own improvements for Super 30, Rafale and most importantly FGFA. The problem is, their inferiority complex doesn't allow that, because LCA is only a low end fighter, where they already messed up much, MKI and Rafale are foreign fighters and making them better (even if it would be for our forces) doesn't bring them enough credit, while they are involved only to minor parts in FGFA at all.

=> That's why AMCA is so important for them and why they want to prove that they can build something comparable too, no matter what the real need of India is, or how long it might take. 

If they want to develop AMCA, then it should be for IN and logically based on design / techs of Rafale and FGFA, to increase commonality (not simply add another type of fighter, radar and engine) and reduce development time. But that is not what they have in mind!

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## indiatester

Black Widow said:


> Sancho, the problem is not DRDO/ADA, The problem is IAF and Political class. These ppl are not freezing requirements. These ppl are changing requirements and will change requirements in development cycle.
> 
> @N-AMCA: Let Navy be clear if they want CATOBAR or SATOBAR N-AMCA, now they are asking for SATOBAR after 30% completeion they will ask for CATOBAR.
> @IAF AMCA: IAF have added extra 5 tonn (now it will be 25 Tonn) Later they will ask for 20 Tonn..
> 
> Indian defence procurement is cause of all evil. Once Supreme court bann arms import (finshed product) then only DRDO/ADA can flourish, else be ready for sabotaged...
> 
> Nature of Sabotage (Changing requirements, Making un-realisable requirement, Putting sand in fuel tank, Cutting wires, Crashing planes and so on)



Any end user will ask for everything they can think of. It is the supplier/manufacturers responsibility to negotiate and then stick to the agreed contract. You can't really say that DRDO/ADA have held up their end of the bargain

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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Any end user will ask for everything they can think of. It is the supplier/manufacturers responsibility to negotiate and then stick to the agreed contract. *You can't really say that DRDO/ADA have held up their end of the bargain*



Exactly and still nobody wants to hold them accountable for that and stick to the simple solution, blame politicians and forces!


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## indiatester

sancho said:


> Exactly and still nobody wants to hold them accountable for that and stick to the simple solution, blame politicians and forces!


All defence manufacturing units should consider the armed forces as their customers and engage them as such. Their products should be competitive and more importantly they should keep commitments.
To promote domestic manufacturing, govt can subsidise local manufacturers so that they have a better opportunity to compete with international players.

Even if you look at our private industry, we as consumers have earlier always cursed the quality of Indian made products, but now we are quite happy because our product quality has increased substantially. When we as civilians demand the best quality items for the best possible price, I'd expect the armed forces to demand the same and more because they are dealing not just with the user experience, but also with their lives and national security.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Awesome maneuver by LCA Tejas making a heart at Aero India 2013

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Oh please not that again, why people always trying to find excuses for DRDO/ADA?
> 
> The fact is, they are not looking at the needs of our forces, or even of Indias security, but only at their own interests, that's why they switching to developments like AMCA or AURA, whey they could contribute way more if they fix LCA, *offer own improvements for Super 30, Rafale and most importantly FGFA*. The problem is, their inferiority complex doesn't allow that, because LCA is only a low end fighter, where they already messed up much, MKI and Rafale are foreign fighters and making them better (even if it would be for our forces) doesn't bring them enough credit, while they are involved only to minor parts in FGFA at all.
> 
> => That's why AMCA is so important for them and why they want to prove that they can build something comparable too, no matter what the real need of India is, or how long it might take.
> 
> If they want to develop AMCA, then it should be for IN and logically based on design / techs of Rafale and FGFA, to increase commonality (not simply add another type of fighter, radar and engine) and reduce development time. But that is not what they have in mind!



WHat improvements? Why would russia allow India to upgrade sukhois, FGFA on its own?


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## subincb

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Awesome maneuver by LCA Tejas making a heart at Aero India 2013



Which day did he do this? I din see the day i went. Would love to see a better video.

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## Black Widow

indiatester said:


> Any end user will ask for everything they can think of. It is the supplier/manufacturers responsibility to negotiate and then stick to the agreed contract. You can't really say that DRDO/ADA have held up their end of the bargain





Do you think so??? Do you think its just client-user relation? Sonny Boy, its financer developer relation. Armed forces and Politicians fund the projects.

If engineers deny, it will be easy task for these maggots (Politicains and corrupt Army) to siphon that money to Swiss Bank.

And who told you these Maggots give un-reaslisable target/requirement to engineers. The first set of requirements are very simple (viable), Engineers invest there skills and mind, in mid course these bastar** start drama. They twist the requirement. 

Since Engineers have already invested much resources, they have no other options than continuing work, If they deny the project will be close. and the blame will come to Engineers and these Maggots will get excuse for siphon that money to Swiss Bank.


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## subincb

It shows firing for R73 but not full.


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## indiatester

Black Widow said:


> Do you think so??? Do you think its just client-user relation? Sonny Boy, its financer developer relation. Armed forces and Politicians fund the projects.
> 
> If engineers deny, it will be easy task for these maggots (Politicains and corrupt Army) to siphon that money to Swiss Bank.
> 
> And who told you these Maggots give un-reaslisable target/requirement to engineers. The first set of requirements are very simple (viable), Engineers invest there skills and mind, in mid course these bastar** start drama. They twist the requirement.
> 
> Since Engineers have already invested much resources, they have no other options than continuing work, If they deny the project will be close. and the blame will come to Engineers and these Maggots will get excuse for siphon that money to Swiss Bank.



The engineers have not built up a great reputation either way. All the delays have been blamed on them and all the missed objectives have been blamed on them. 

Projects should not be continued just because so many resources have been invested, but based on what returns we are getting out of them. If any project has outrun its cost or time limits, it has to be reviewed critically and continued only if defended objectively and it has to be coupled with smart restaffing for the project. 

With regards to the twisting of requirements from armed forces, the engineers would have been on a much stronger position if they had delivered either on time or a satisfactory product with delays. What I want to bring out is a decent process where people are held accountable for their failures.

DRDO/ADA/HAL have been successful in two aspects.
1) Areas where we have no supply i.e., ballistic missiles and such.
2) Decent products with low cost. Rudra comes to mind here.

We should learn for these successful endeavours and replicate them in other struggling areas. Don't get me wrong, I would like our agencies to be successful too, but we should not fall into the trap of protecting something that is not delivering.

PS: Based on my experiences in industry


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> WHat improvements? Why would russia allow India to upgrade sukhois, FGFA on its own?



Centerline missilebays (at least 4 missiles could be carried there internally), or stealthy weaponpods for MKIs wingstations.
CAS options for Rafale, based on Sudharshan, Helina, or Samho with multi racks, or rocket pods. As I often say, getting the French into a NG missile co-develoment for IA, IN and IAF fighters to replace R73 from all fighters.
The rights to integrate LRDE AESA radar and possibly Kaveri K10 to Mig 29Ks in future, instead of beeing dependent on Russian upgrades later, which will be very costly. 

There is so much we can do, to the huge fleet of fighters, that we will have for the next at least 30 years! Once because these smaller modifications are easier and cheaper to develop for us with our current technical capability, but also because in most cases we are the prime operator anyway! Be it Su 30s, Mig 29Ks and even Rafales, there is no other customer in the world that orders such huge numbers than we do and we already produce them under licence, so the next logical step must be, to customize them on our own, according to our requirements as well and not only to get improvements from the original manufacturers.

Russia will induct early version of Pak Fa by 2015/16, the same time we expect our first Super 30s, so only because Russia don't need further developments wrt lower RCS / stealth features for their older Flankers, doesn't mean we don't need them either, because we will operate them for at least till 2030.
Just like Israel is making their own modifications at US aircrafts as well, to make them more capable.


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> All defence manufacturing units should consider the armed forces as their customers and engage them as such. Their products should be competitive and more importantly they should keep commitments.
> To promote domestic manufacturing, govt can subsidise local manufacturers so that they have a better opportunity to compete with international players.



Exactly, because the forces will logically only commit themselfs to projects they need and that are capable enough and not only branded "indigenous", while failing in core capabilities.
Currently it is often the case that privat companies are joining foreign partners for competitions, I would prefer if we always use 1 government company and 1 privat industrial partner to join for projects, because that will help to improve our whole industry to get better, not only government OR private companies.
Foreign partners could still be get as consultants, for example:

LCA development:

- Prime developer HAL
- Sub developer TATA
- Foreign partner for design, navalisation (if necessary) Dassault


Avro replacement, under licence production:

- Prime producer NAL
- Sub producer Mahindra
- Foreign manufacturer to provide ToT..., Airbus/Alenia


Project 75 / 75I

- Prime developer Mazogon
- Sub developer Pipavav
- Foreign partner for design, to provide ToT..., DCNS


Self-Propelled-Howitzer

- Prime developer Ordnance Factories Board
- Sub developer Ashok Leyland Defence Systems
- Foreign partner for design, to provide ToT..., KMW


With this approach, the government will still keep control that the forces will get what they required, that ToT and offsets can be maximised and THEY will decide which privat industrial partner is the best for them to help with modern production and management capabilities, not the foreign manufacturer that has it's own interests in mind!

ADA should be an independent agency that supports HAL or NAL at R&D, but should not be the developer in charge for the whole project, since they don't have the experience or knowledge for that either.

DRDO should be focused on side project only, Engine, radar, avionics, instead of getting their nose into everything and they face infront of every camera.

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## ANPP

sancho said:


> Oh please not that again, why people always trying to find excuses for DRDO/ADA?
> 
> The fact is, they are not looking at the needs of our forces, or even of Indias security, but only at their own interests, that's why they switching to developments like AMCA or AURA, whey they could contribute way more if they fix LCA, offer own improvements for Super 30, Rafale and most importantly FGFA. The problem is, their inferiority complex doesn't allow that, because LCA is only a low end fighter, where they already messed up much, MKI and Rafale are foreign fighters and making them better (even if it would be for our forces) doesn't bring them enough credit, while they are involved only to minor parts in FGFA at all.
> 
> => That's why AMCA is so important for them and why they want to prove that they can build something comparable too, no matter what the real need of India is, or how long it might take.
> 
> If they want to develop AMCA, then it should be for IN and logically based on design / techs of Rafale and FGFA, to increase commonality (not simply add another type of fighter, radar and engine) and reduce development time. But that is not what they have in mind!



I should not ask that but showing your ignorance towards AMCA, what is the benefit of Rafale in IAF while we already have MKI (very low cost), super MKi & FGFA are nearly on their way.


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## sancho

ANPP said:


> I should not ask that but showing your ignorance towards AMCA, what is the benefit of Rafale in IAF while we already have MKI (very low cost), super MKi & FGFA are nearly on their way.



For you it's ignorance, because you look at it with too much indigenous pride and less rationalism. For me it has nothing to do with the origin, but with what is really needed in operational terms for the defence of our country, that's why I am against AMCA in IAF, but for AMCA in IN!

Rafales benefit in IAF is, that it offers technological alternatives from western sources, which makes us operationally less dependent on Russian weapons or techs and are often even more capable and needed for our defence.
In A2A for example, it needs to be seen how capable the Super 30 will be compared to a Rafale F3+ with lower signatures, better passive detection capabilities and better weapons, at lower operational costs. It's future potentials is also higher and without the stealthy modifications that I mentioned earlier, Rafale will take over the prime roles pretty fast, until FGFA and AURA will be fully operational around 2025 or so.


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## ANPP

sancho said:


> For you it's ignorance, because you look at it with *too much indigenous pride and less rationalism.* For me it has nothing to do with the origin, but with what is really needed in operational terms for the defence of our country, that's why I am against AMCA in IAF, but for AMCA in IN!
> 
> Rafales benefit in IAF is, that it offers technological alternatives from western sources, which makes us *operationally less dependent on Russian weapons or techs* and are often even more capable and needed for our defence.
> In A2A for example, it needs to be seen how capable the Super 30 will be compared to a Rafale F3+ with lower signatures, better passive detection capabilities and better weapons, at lower operational costs. It's *future potentials is also higher* and without the stealthy modifications that I mentioned earlier, Rafale will take over the prime roles pretty fast, until FGFA and AURA will be fully operational around 2025 or so.




Thats why we support AMCA.dont you

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## INDIAISM

sancho said:


> Centerline missilebays (at least 4 missiles could be carried there internally), or stealthy weaponpods for MKIs wingstations.
> CAS options for Rafale, based on Sudharshan, Helina, or Samho with multi racks, or rocket pods. As I often say, getting the French into a NG missile co-develoment for IA, IN and IAF fighters to replace R73 from all fighters.
> The rights to integrate LRDE AESA radar and possibly Kaveri K10 to Mig 29Ks in future, instead of beeing dependent on Russian upgrades later, which will be very costly.
> 
> There is so much we can do, to the huge fleet of fighters, that we will have for the next at least 30 years! Once because these smaller modifications are easier and cheaper to develop for us with our current technical capability, but also because in most cases we are the prime operator anyway! Be it Su 30s, Mig 29Ks and even Rafales, there is no other customer in the world that orders such huge numbers than we do and we already produce them under licence, so the next logical step must be, to customize them on our own, according to our requirements as well and not only to get improvements from the original manufacturers.
> 
> Russia will induct early version of Pak Fa by 2015/16, the same time we expect our first Super 30s, so only because Russia don't need further developments wrt lower RCS / stealth features for their older Flankers, doesn't mean we don't need them either, because we will operate them for at least till 2030.
> Just like Israel is making their own modifications at US aircrafts as well, to make them more capable.


In short you are saying that we should follow Israel path to develop our Defence Aviation Industry....

-Indegenious Weapons
-Indegenious Avionics
-Indegenious Engine K10

To some extent i agree with you sir...As it will save alot of $$ in future then building an entire new stealth Fighter jet....Not only that it will also help us in getting similarity in our Fighter jet Fleet to some extent atleast..


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## Black Widow

indiatester said:


> The engineers have not built up a great reputation either way. All the delays have been blamed on them and all the missed objectives have been blamed on them.
> 
> *Projects should not be continued just because so many resources have been invested, but based on what returns we are getting out of them. If any project has outrun its cost or time limits, it has to be reviewed critically and continued only if defended objectively and it has to be coupled with smart restaffing for the project.
> *
> With regards to the twisting of requirements from armed forces, the engineers would have been on a much stronger position if they had delivered either on time or a satisfactory product with delays. What I want to bring out is a decent process where people are held accountable for their failures.
> 
> DRDO/ADA/HAL have been successful in two aspects.
> 1) Areas where we have no supply i.e., ballistic missiles and such.
> 2) Decent products with low cost. Rudra comes to mind here.
> 
> We should learn for these successful endeavours and replicate them in other struggling areas. Don't get me wrong, I would like our agencies to be successful too, but we should not fall into the trap of protecting something that is not delivering.
> 
> PS: Based on my experiences in industry






What ever u said is correct, there is no doubt. But this is true in a scenario when you have well developed industry. Your argument hold no value in Research and Development. I work in R&D and I have closely seen extension of timeline. and even not all R&D project meet its fate...

Let me correct you here.
1. ALH Dhruv was R&D project.
2. LCH and ALH Rudra are enhancements. 

For Dhruv you can't achieve deadlines (Time and Quality), while in second case you most likely meet them.

LCA was R&D project, India had not made 3rd generation fighter (It was jump from 2nd gen to 4th gen). Instead of being pragmatic IAF/Govt tried to spoil the project. 

*Being Pragmatic: Kaveri is not ready, ok no problem go to GE or EJ, AoA is 2 degree less, Ok induct it we will rectify in next batch, Can't drop LGBs , ok no problem, will do in next batch.*



remember Merkava/F16/F111A was not build in one batch. U do a case study of all world class fighters, you will find them evolving, where as IAF/Govt didn't gave that opportunity to LCA.

Great Machines are not Made , They evolve.....

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## sancho

INDIAISM said:


> In short you are saying that we should follow Israel path to develop our Defence Aviation Industry....
> 
> -Indegenious Weapons
> -Indegenious Avionics
> -Indegenious Engine K10
> 
> To some extent i agree with you sir...As it will save alot of $$ in future then building an entire new stealth Fighter jet....Not only that it will also help us in getting similarity in our Fighter jet Fleet to some extent atleast..



At least for IAF and for fighters, because we that will maximise the operational capability of IAF according to their needs and not only according to what the industry wants to develop.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> LCA was R&D project, India had not made 3rd generation fighter (*It was jump from 2nd gen to 4th gen*). *Instead of being pragmatic IAF/Govt tried to spoil the project*.



 

Neither IAF/Govt decided to such a jump, but the industry did, because they (DRDO mainly) decided to do radar and engine developments alone, without any know how. Just like IAF/Govt didn't said that these techs must be available for LCA from the start, but the industry did!
You are right about beeing pragmatic, but DRDO should have had that in mind!

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> Neither IAF/Govt decided to such a jump, but the industry did, because they (DRDO mainly) decided to do radar and engine developments alone, without any know how. Just like IAF/Govt didn't said that these techs must be available for LCA from the start, but the industry did!
> You are right about beeing pragmatic, but DRDO should have had that in mind!





O! is it? I don't remember AESA requirement came from DRDO, I don't know if 90KN engine requirement came from DRDO. 


As I said earlier, The initial requirement floated (By Corrupt bastar**) were very realisable, They twist it later.

@Engine: I hope you remember why Marut died, It was unavailability of powerful engine, This is why HAL/DRDO decided to go ahead with own engine. 


Do you think if Arjuna was not sabotaged, The family would have got millions of dollars (by T90 deals)?? If LCA was not sabotaged/destroyed Rafael would have came into picture... Wait for few years, u will hear The Family getting kickback..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Centerline missilebays (at least 4 missiles could be carried there internally), or stealthy weaponpods for MKIs wingstations.
> CAS options for Rafale, based on Sudharshan, Helina, or Samho with multi racks, or rocket pods. As I often say, getting the French into a NG missile co-develoment for IA, IN and IAF fighters to replace R73 from all fighters.
> The rights to integrate LRDE AESA radar and possibly Kaveri K10 to Mig 29Ks in future, instead of beeing dependent on Russian upgrades later, which will be very costly.



 , And How do you suggest we get the rights from russia/ france that will allow all that what you have mentioned to be done in India? 

Do you think Russia/France will give you the right to make changes to their planes without their consent? For a modification like strengthening of pylon to carry brahmos, we have to go to Russia and here you are dreaming about making bays and concealed weapon pods on our own?

How can you even suggest all this when we only have production license that does not include the right to make future modifications on our own? For every upgrade, you will have to go to the original manufacturer. All that what you suggest can only be done when we have our own planes and that is the reason for supporting LCA and AMCA programmes so that in future we dont have to run to russia or france.



sancho said:


> There is so much we can do, to the huge fleet of fighters, that we will have for the next at least 30 years! Once because these smaller modifications are easier and cheaper to develop for us with our current technical capability, but also because in most cases we are the prime operator anyway! Be it Su 30s, Mig 29Ks and even Rafales, there is no other customer in the world that orders such huge numbers than we do and we already produce them under licence, so the next logical step must be, to customize them on our own, according to our requirements as well and not only to get improvements from the original manufacturers.



Yes we can do alot with LCA Tejas or any indigenous plane, but not with foreign plane. Production license does not mean you have the right to make modifications on your own. I don't know under what illusion you are living and making such suggestions.





sancho said:


> Russia will induct early version of Pak Fa by 2015/16, the same time we expect our first Super 30s, so only because Russia don't need further developments wrt lower RCS / stealth features for their older Flankers, doesn't mean we don't need them either, because we will operate them for at least till 2030.
> Just like Israel is making their own modifications at US aircrafts as well, to make them more capable.



Agian, Production license does not mean you have the right to make modifications on your own. 

I think you are smart enough to understand that Israel-US relations are not the same as Indo-russian relations.

Please stop dreaming.

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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## Jayanta

Will India Air Force order moreTejas.....


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## rockstarIN

Jayanta said:


> Will India Air Force order for Tejas.....



40 already ordered. 

Serial production is already started FYI

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## Jayanta

rockstar said:


> 40 already ordered.
> 
> Serial production is already started FYI



Those 40 were ordered long back...unfortunately HAL is running 2 years behind in producing them.. LSP-8 was supposed to fly in 2011. My question was....after the performance in Iron Fist...is the IAF going increase the order.


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## rockstarIN

Jayanta said:


> Those 40 were ordered long back...unfortunately HAL is running 2 years behind in producing them.. LSP-8 was supposed to fly in 2011. My question was....after the performance in Iron Fist...is the IAF going increase the order.



Firing R-73s and releasing LGBs not enough for IAF it seems. 

Anyways the serial production is started and they suppose to give the first jet by this year end (AFAIK). HAL agreed to produce 8 jets per so far.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> O! is it? I don't remember AESA requirement came from DRDO, I don't know if 90KN engine requirement came from DRDO.




Yes it is! Because neither AESA radar nor a 90kN engine were required by IAF in the begining of the projects, but were needed after more than a decade delay and because ADA/DRDO couln't provide what they promised. Not to mention that AESA is still not a requirement, but DRDO is claiming MK2 would come with an indigenous AESA, while ADA is just talking about MMR, if puls doppler or AESA needs to be seen, according to their officials.
And as I already explained, higher thrust engine was not an IAF requirement, but an IN!

So less promises and big talk by ADA/DRDO and LCA would be in IAF service by now, but IAF should have inducted a squadron of MK1s at least for training pilots yet.




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> , And How do you suggest we get the rights from russia/ france that will allow all that what you have mentioned to be done in India?
> 
> Do you think Russia/France will give you the right to make changes to their planes without their consent? For a modification like strengthening of pylon to carry brahmos, we have to go to Russia and here you are dreaming about making bays and concealed weapon pods on our own?



Who needs rights from Russia or France to develop a external weaponpod? We only would need their approval for core changes at the fighter and even that is not an issue, if it benefits the OEM as well. Do you think France would deny us to make Rafale more capable, especially if we do it with our money and most likely even as a joint development?
And that's the point, if we remain to be dependent on Russian and France for upgrades, we only get what they develop and at high costs. But if we can develop upgraded techs or capabilities on our own, which just needs integration by the OEM later and it would benefit their forces or exports as well, we will benefit way more.

A weapon pod like the Silent Eagle uses for example is just an external payload and has nothing to do with the fighter itself, so we could develop something like that, especially now when we develop Astra for MKI anyway and if it turns out as a success, ask the Russian to integrate on MKI. They even would be interested to get such things for their own Flanker fleet, as an upgrade, that they don't even to fund.

 Yeah, *I am the dreamer* because I want us to develop an external weaponpod, with some stealthy shapings and weapon doors, instead of developing a fully fledged stealth fighter with all the required techs and capabilities and completely indigenously like you guys think.



Jayanta said:


> Those 40 were ordered long back...unfortunately HAL is running 2 years behind in producing them.. LSP-8 was supposed to fly in 2011. My question was....after the performance in Iron Fist...is the IAF going increase the order.



The problem is not the production, but that LCA didn't get final clearances from IAF yet, since the fighter still has some issues. The faster we get the clearences, the faster we can get the MK1 production fully started.
Iron Fist doesn't make a difference, because not the A2G capability is the problem, but the A2A capabilities, with not reaching the requirements in AoA, G limits, speed...yet.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Who needs rights from Russia or France to develop a external weaponpod? We only would need their approval for core changes at the fighter and even that is not an issue, if it benefits the OEM as well.


what does that even mean when you say we dont need rights but approval? You dont need any rights to develop a weaponpod, but you need rights to integrate them onto a platform that is developed by them. You need rights to make any aerodynamic changes whether that is strengthening of pylon to carry Brahmos, adding weapon bay or fuel tanks. 

And How does it help an OEM if their user is able to make future upgrades on its own without any help from the OEM? What kind of logic is that? Its an obvious loss for them. 




sancho said:


> And that's the point, if we remain to be dependent on Russian and France for upgrades, we only get what they develop and at high costs.



Naturally, we will always be dependent on Russians/France not just for upgrades but for next gen planes if we dont start investing in our own programes like LCA and AMCA. Atleast now and in the future, we dont have to go to russia for light weight fighters thanks to LCA programe. 




sancho said:


> They even would be interested to get such things for their own Flanker fleet, as an upgrade, that they don't even to fund.



Ohhh so they will get upgrades developed by India free of cost? great!!


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## Black Widow

Jayanta said:


> Those 40 were ordered long back...unfortunately HAL is running 2 years behind in producing them.. LSP-8 was supposed to fly in 2011. My question was....after the performance in Iron Fist...is the IAF going increase the order.



By the time these 40 LCA MK I will be ready, DRDO/HAL will be working on LCA MK II. It will take 2 years to produce 40 LCA MK I. (Initial production rate will be 9 or 11 plane per year max, later it may go upto 20 plane/year). The IAF will evalucate MK II and give next batch order (may be 40-120). 

The worst case scenario will be LCA MKII will not get ready before LCA MK I production ends, in that case IAF can go for more LCA MK I or wait for LCA MK II.

But as i belive MK II will not take more time..

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## Black Widow

@sancho: No it is not, IAF wanted to sabotage LCA program. When they saw LCA becoming reality they tried to sabotage it by setting the un-realisable requirements. 
LCA is alive because of A B Bajpai, A K Antony. Mulla Mulayam had almost stopped this project. 
You don't need AESA, Supercruise, Stealth feature, 100KN engine for point defense role. In current form LCA is best in its class. 


Hope in 2014 we see an honest PM (Acting PM) and Honest def min..


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## Srinivas

R73 firing by LCA


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## subincb

Srinivas said:


> R73 firing by LCA



This was somewhere in 2010. not the new one


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## Bratva

What data linking equipment is installed in LCA?


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## rockstarIN

mafiya said:


> What data linking equipment is installed in LCA?



The same one installed in MKI, MIGs .. made by DRDO.


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## Bratva

rockstar said:


> The same one installed in MKI, MIGs .. made by DRDO.



hate to quote JF-17 Example but it uses German software defined radios so it can communicate with western aircrafts. Is it similar kind of arrangement used in LCA? In future Rafael will join the fleet. Will western Link 16 type data link can directly communicate with your russian origin and indian origin aircraft and AWAC or you have to use intermediate solution to make them talk with each other?


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## rockstarIN

mafiya said:


> hate to quote JF-17 Example but it uses German software defined radios so it can communicate with western aircrafts. Is it similar kind of arrangement used in LCA? In future Rafael will join the fleet. Will western Link 16 type data link can directly communicate with your russian origin and indian origin aircraft and AWAC or you have to use intermediate solution to make them talk with each other?



All our AWAC or any other military air craft uses the same stuff, our own product, whether American heavy lifter or other. I'm sure |French will hardly have any problem with that. After all We are not in NATO.(rmember MKI had comm. problems in red flag with American AWAC)


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## ANPP

mafiya said:


> hate to quote JF-17 Example but it uses German software defined radios so it can communicate with western aircrafts. Is it similar kind of arrangement used in LCA? In future Rafael will join the fleet. Will western Link 16 type data link can directly communicate with your russian origin and indian origin aircraft and AWAC or you have to use intermediate solution to make them talk with each other?



Data link will be replaced by Indian one just as in case of C130.


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## Bratva

ANPP said:


> Data link will be replaced by Indian one just as in case of C130.



i havent heard usa or france giving you permission to use indian origin DL equipment on therir aircrafts?

Except P-8


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## ANPP

mafiya said:


> i havent heard usa or france giving you permission to use indian origin DL equipment on therir aircrafts?
> 
> Except P-8



USA control its manufactured weapons which it sell to other country inluding PAK/India. So IAF just brought downgraded version of C130, so that it will be free from monitering. And than put equivalent system in it to restore its original capability.


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## Bratva

ANPP said:


> USA control its manufactured weapons which it sell to other country inluding PAK/India. So IAF just brought downgraded version of C130, so that it will be free from monitering. And than put equivalent system in it to restore its original capability.



Due to CISMOA which IAF didnt sign, you can not put anything in it until you got permission from OEM.


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## INDIAISM

Massage Deleted


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## IndianArmy

mafiya said:


> Due to CISMOA which IAF didnt sign, you can not put anything in it until you got permission from OEM.



I suppose not. We use our own communication, data link equipments and that's the very reason why we have not signed the CISMOA, and we are free to install it as long as there is no DATA Linking with the US Forces.

Why would they be having any problem?


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> what does that even mean when you say we dont need rights but approval? You dont need any rights to develop a weaponpod, but you need rights to integrate them onto a platform that is developed by them. You need rights to make any aerodynamic changes whether that is strengthening of pylon to carry Brahmos, adding weapon bay or fuel tanks.



Weapon pods as mentioned are not part of the fighter, but external payloads, that's why they don't create any aerodynamic changes to the fighter itself. We could develop them and even flight test them fitted on MKI, whithout an apporval of Russia, just like we flight tested Astra missiles. The point where Russia comes into play is, when we need to modify the fighter or certain techs, for example integrating the missile to the radar for launch tests, or if certain wireings, or software changes are need, or in case of Brahmos, if the weight limits of the harpoints needs to be changed, by modifing the airframe in that area...
But a weapon pod is not that heavy and the only integration that might be needed comes, when we would test a fully developed version, that can open it's doors and launch weapons. To make the pilot able to do so, changes of the fighters are needed and that would be done with the Russians. 




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> And How does it help an OEM if their user is able to make future upgrades on its own without any help from the OEM?



These are modifications, not fully fleged upgrades, which include overhaul of the airframe, engine changes... and as you know, we even do most of the overhauling part of especially Russian fighters in India now as well, so that won't be an issue in future either. Just like the addition and integration of Sudarshan LGB will be done in India and not in Russia.
The OEM benefits from mdoifications, because it makes the fighter itself more capable and more interesting for export customers.
India for example funded the final integration of canards and TVC to the SU 30MK, which then resulted in high interest of this version on the export market. India beeing able to do parts of the maintenance for Russian fighters is a benefit for Asian customers like Malaysia, just like future Indian weapons would be offered to these export customers as alternatives to the Russian weapon.
And that fully developed weaponpods would increase the capability of the Flanker dramatically should be a no brainer, be it for any export customer for Su 30s, or even for Russian forces itself as explained earlier, but since you don't want to look at it in an unbiased way, it is not surprising that you don't want to understand it.

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> The worst case scenario will be LCA MKII will not get ready before LCA MK I production ends, in that case IAF can go for more LCA MK I or wait for LCA MK II.



That would be a worst case scenario for the industry, but not for IAF, since they get Rafale at the same time and later FGFA, so any further delay of LCA would only result in more Rafale or FGFA orders, but would be a credible threat to LCA program as a whole. That's why I hope the industry finally comes to senses and make the upgrade simple and not a show off.



Black Widow said:


> You don't need AESA, Supercruise, Stealth feature, 100KN engine for point defense role.



Again, that's why these were never required by the forces when the project started and most of this are not even required today. The stealth feature talk only came up when DRDOs Mr Saraswat publically was dreaming about an MK3 version, the 100kN engine is a possible requirement for AMCA, not for LCA and again, not stated by IAF, since IAF is not involved in AMCA at this concept stage.
The only point where IAF and IN are a problem for LCA are, one that IAF insists in modifications that could be done even when the fighter is inducted, or that IN is insisting in a fully fledged naval version, when only a tech demo version is needed. Both causes delays of the program right now, but are not the main reasons. 




mafiya said:


> hate to quote JF-17 Example but it uses German software defined radios so it can communicate with western aircrafts. Is it similar kind of arrangement used in LCA? In future Rafael will join the fleet. Will western Link 16 type data link can directly communicate with your russian origin and indian origin aircraft and AWAC or you have to use intermediate solution to make them talk with each other?



As I told you before, India is developing own datalinks and comunication systems, to link AWACS and fighters of all origin with eachother. Link 16 can't comunicate with Russian or Chinese fighters, that's why MKIs couldn't be linked with NATO AWACS during Red Flag, or why PAF needs differnt links to comunicate with Chinese and US fighters.


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## Black Widow

mafiya said:


> Due to CISMOA which IAF didnt sign, you can not put anything in it until you got permission from OEM.





You need to be educated on CISMOA... Please read these posts, It has clearly mentioned what it is and how it is...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/76751-no-cismoa-no-problem-iaf-chief.html


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## rockstarIN

mafiya said:


> i havent heard usa or france giving you permission to use indian origin DL equipment on therir aircrafts?
> 
> Except P-8


India Buys C-130J-30 Hercules for Special Forces

he Indian government decided not to sign the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which resulted in the exclusion of high precision GPS and other sensitive equipment. However the IAF added similar equipment produced indigenously , to the aircraft after delivery.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## rockstarIN

Whats it? ....


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## kurup

rockstar said:


> Whats it? ....



Looks like cleaning the aircraft ............


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> Weapon pods as mentioned are not part of the fighter, but external payloads, that's why they don't create any aerodynamic changes to the fighter itself. We could develop them and even flight test them fitted on MKI, whithout an apporval of Russia, just like we flight tested Astra missiles. The point where Russia comes into play is, when we need to modify the fighter or certain techs, for example integrating the missile to the radar for launch tests, or if certain wireings, or software changes are need, or in case of Brahmos, if the weight limits of the harpoints needs to be changed, by modifing the airframe in that area...
> But a weapon pod is not that heavy and the only integration that might be needed comes, when we would test a fully developed version, that can open it's doors and launch weapons. * To make the pilot able to do so, changes of the fighters are needed and that would be done with the Russians. *



Yeah!!! You need to understand only one point that no matter in how many ways you try to twist the argument in the end you will have to accept (the way you did in the bold part) that any change especially major modifications like change of pylon, internal carriage or even a weapons pod or upgrades will require approval and help from the Russians. Does this help us? only in the short term, but when it comes to next gen upgrades or next gen fighter, we will always be dependent on russians or France if we dont fund our indigenous programs like LCA and AMCA. 



sancho said:


> The OEM benefits from mdoifications, because it makes the fighter itself more capable and more interesting for export customers.
> *India for example funded the final integration of canards and TVC to the SU 30MK, which then resulted in high interest of this version on the export market*.India beeing able to do parts of the maintenance for Russian fighters is a benefit for Asian customers like Malaysia, just like future Indian weapons would be offered to these export customers as alternatives to the Russian weapon.
> And that fully developed weaponpods would increase the capability of the Flanker dramatically should be a no brainer, be it for any export customer for Su 30s, or even for Russian forces itself as explained earlier, but since you don't want to look at it in an unbiased way, it is not surprising that you don't want to understand it.



How did it help India? do we own the rights to sell the plane? we funded the programe and now russia is selling the fighter and that makes you merrier?

Again what ever you are suggesting is not going to make india self reliant in making future gen fighters. As per your logic India should just be content in making minor modifications for the foreign fighters that makes them slightly potetnt but also require approval and help of the OEM. How does it help us when it comes to next gen planes? it does not and that is why we need programs like LCA and AMCA. Now India doesnt require any foreign fighter in the light category because of LCA program. In the future, same will be the case with AMCA programe making us self reliant in the medium category fighters. 

If we follow your logic, India will always be dependet on Russia and France for next gen fighetrs.



kurup said:


> Looks like cleaning the aircraft ............



RAIN proof test

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Yeah!!! You need to understand only one point that no matter in how many ways you try to twist the argument in the end you will have to accept (the way you did in the bold part) that any change especially major modifications like change of pylon



I don't have to twist anything, you just need to read unbiased and try to understand things! You talked about airframe modifications of the fighter, which are not necessary when you add an external payload to a hardpoint. All that is necessary and which I am saying from the start, is changing wiring's and software updates. That is neither a big deal, nor an issue for Russia or France (remember Kargil, when we integrated LGBs with Israeli help, or as I said Astra tests on MKI).

So it remains true, that we could improve our MKIs with such a development, without waiting that the Russians come up with it. Just like this upgrade would make IAF operationally more capable, or that it's easier than developing another stealth fighter type for them.



BlueDot_in_Space said:


> How did it help India? do we own the rights to sell the plane? we funded the programe and now russia is selling the fighter and that makes you merrier?



You asked how the OEM (Russia/Sukhoi) benefited and that's what I answered. India instead benefits, if we can offer alternative techs and services for Su 30 operators, be it Samtel cockpit displays, DARE EW sensors, Sudarshan LGBs and Astra missiles, or as a stealthy weapon pods. All this can be offered to Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam..., besides the upgrades that Russia offers them, just like how we selected French and Israeli parts instead of Russian once. The indigenous stuff we develop and integrate into MKI, the more our industry can benefit as well.
Just like Israel benefits from selling the modifications they developed for F16 and F15 to Singapore or S. Korea for example. 




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Again what ever you are suggesting is not going to make india self reliant in making future gen fighters.



Which again shows your level of bias, because the opposite is the case and can already be seen! 

Why do we develop Astra missile? Because we want to integrate it into MKI and Mig 29Ks, to be less reliant on Russian missile quality and cost increases when we order them.

Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle.

Why do we jouin co-developments with them on 50/50 basis? Because we like the highly capable systems that they offer, but want to be able to modify them according to our requirements and increasingly with our own parts (navigation systems and seekers in Brahmos, materials, avionics...in FGFA...).

Not to mention that it makes IAF and IN more capable, if we can add good capabilities to their Russian fighters, that they have to operate for the next 30 years, instead of being dependent on Russian development only. 


All this makes us constantly less dependent on Russia, but only to the extend that we really can do it. We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!
That's why upgrading our foreign fighters with higher indigenous content, besides doing own low end and joint NG developments, would be the easiest, fastest and most effective way for us to improve our self and get less reliant!

The problem is, when *you* look at things just from one side and without an open mind, *you* obviously will only come to such wrong conclusions. That's why more rational thinking and less blinding with pride would be important for us, especially for the Indian defence industry!

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## TakeNoBS

The can just call LCA the "Texas" plane?


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## Varunastra

TakeNoBS said:


> The can just call LCA the "Texas" plane?



Tejas not Texas !!!!


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## TakeNoBS

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> Tejas not Texas !!!!



Tejas is Texas in Spanish.


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## Varunastra

TakeNoBS said:


> Tejas is Texas in Spanish.



but we don't use spanish names .....kindly refer to LCA as Tejas


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## TakeNoBS

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> but we don't use spanish names .....kindly refer to LCA as Tejas



How do you pronounce it? Is the word "j" pronounce as "h"?


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## Water Car Engineer

TakeNoBS said:


> The can just call LCA the "Texas" plane?



So, faithfulguy, you're back?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> I don't have to twist anything, you just need to read unbiased and try to understand things! You talked about airframe modifications of the fighter, which are not necessary when you add an external payload to a hardpoint. All that is necessary and which I am saying from the start, is changing wiring's and software updates. That is neither a big deal, nor an issue for Russia or France (remember Kargil, when we integrated LGBs with Israeli help, or as I said Astra tests on MKI).
> 
> So it remains true, that we could improve our MKIs with such a development, without waiting that the Russians come up with it. Just like this upgrade would make IAF operationally more capable, or that it's easier than developing another stealth fighter type for them.
> 
> 
> 
> You asked how the OEM (Russia/Sukhoi) benefited and that's what I answered. India instead benefits, if we can offer alternative techs and services for Su 30 operators, be it Samtel cockpit displays, DARE EW sensors, Sudarshan LGBs and Astra missiles, or as a stealthy weapon pods. All this can be offered to Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam..., besides the upgrades that Russia offers them, just like how we selected French and Israeli parts instead of Russian once. The indigenous stuff we develop and integrate into MKI, the more our industry can benefit as well.
> Just like Israel benefits from selling the modifications they developed for F16 and F15 to Singapore or S. Korea for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which again shows your level of bias, because the opposite is the case and can already be seen!
> 
> Why do we develop Astra missile? Because we want to integrate it into MKI and Mig 29Ks, to be less reliant on Russian missile quality and cost increases when we order them.
> 
> Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle.
> 
> Why do we jouin co-developments with them on 50/50 basis? Because we like the highly capable systems that they offer, but want to be able to modify them according to our requirements and increasingly with our own parts (navigation systems and seekers in Brahmos, materials, avionics...in FGFA...).
> 
> Not to mention that it makes IAF and IN more capable, if we can add good capabilities to their Russian fighters, that they have to operate for the next 30 years, instead of being dependent on Russian development only.
> 
> 
> All this makes us constantly less dependent on Russia, but only to the extend that we really can do it. We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!
> That's why upgrading our foreign fighters with higher indigenous content, besides doing own low end and joint NG developments, would be the easiest, fastest and most effective way for us to improve our self and get less reliant!
> 
> The problem is, when *you* look at things just from one side and without an open mind, *you* obviously will only come to such wrong conclusions. That's why more rational thinking and less blinding with pride would be important for us, especially for the Indian defence industry!



After all *your rants and twisted arguments*, the fact is for any kind of major modifications India has to send latests generation fighters like SU30 and Mig 29 to Russia and same will be the case with FGFA which is Indianised version of PAKFA. There will always be strings attached when it comes to latest generation of foreign origin fighters and there is a limit to what you can do with them. 

Today India is able to make system modification like mission computers and displays because of the LCA program. LCA spinoffs are going into SU30s and other foreign fighters. NAVAL LCA program will give us the capability to design Indian naval fighter and replace russian systems, which is not possible if we only concentrate on modifying mission computers and wirings of Mig 29s as per your logic. 

For how long do you plan to buy and make minor modifications to foreign fighters? In the end you will have to jump into fighter design, radar design and engine design. To be independent, the major systems like the airframe, radar and engines has to be indigenous and that is the reason India is investing in AMCA , LRDE RADAR and Kaveri engine. Knowledge to develop all these technologies does not come with any purchase like Rafael or co development or JV like PAKFA, but with in house R&D programs like LCA, AMCA, Kaveri and LRDE Radar. 






sancho said:


> We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!




Yeah, we can develop a 4th + gen fighter today thanks to LCA program and ADA is concentrating on AMCA that will allow us to develop 5th + gen fighter technologies. 


To summarize, 

Advantage of following your logic, i.e., minor system development:



sancho said:


> Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be *less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle*.



Disadvantage: For any major future upgrade like radar and avioinics, engines and frame modifications or next gen fighter RUN to the original OEM.


Advantage of investing in major system development like indigenous fighter programs like LCA in your words:



sancho said:


> We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today.



i.e., self reliance in making a light weight 4+ gen fighter, lower life cycle cost, hassle-less future upgrades and Knowledge gained will ease the R&D for next gen fighter.


In the short term, purchase or JV is ok , but for our long term interest, we must invest in indigenous programs.


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## S-DUCT

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2061 Test Flights successfully.(28-Feb-2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-105,LSP4-66,*LSP5-139*,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2059 Test Flights Successfully. (27-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-105,LSP4-66,LSP5-137,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> *replace russian systems*, which is not possible if we only concentrate on modifying mission computers and wirings of Mig 29s as per your logic.



 That's exactly what I said, but since you purposly don't want to understand... 

Take Mig 29K as an example, it would be much better for IN if we can integrate an Indian AESA to replace Zhuk ME, or to integrate Kaveri K10 when RD33 MK needs replacements, than developing a fully fledged N-LCA with the same techs, but on a less capable plattform.
We would reduce the dependence on Russia, by increasing the indigenous content in the more capable Russian fighter!
That's why developing simpler modifications now is more realistic according to our capabilities, than dreaming of something that we might be able to develop in some decades.



BlueDot_in_Space said:


> For how long do you plan to buy and make minor modifications to foreign fighters?



I am talking about the fighters we will operate for the nex 3 decades, MKI, Mig 29K, Rafale, LCA, FGFA. So since we will have these, we also have to think about how to make them more capable and less dependent. For IN I already stated that AMCA would be the most important project and not such a nonsense like N-LCA. But again, you have to listen and at least try to understand what I say.




BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Knowledge to develop all these technologies does not come with any purchase like Rafael or co development or JV like PAKFA, but with in house R&D programs like LCA, AMCA, Kaveri and LRDE Radar.



Yeah, that's why Kaveri ended as a failure, LCA is still not developed, it's radar is not ready either and the only way out of it (ADMITTED BY DRDO) was and is to find foreign partners like Elta or Snecma.
On the other side, our most successful developments currently are Dhruv with Shakti engine and Brahmos, all thanks to credible help from foreign partners. Just like we got most of our knowledge in the radar and EW field from JV with Israeli companies, or why our privat companies are forming JVs, or simply taking over foreign companies to benefit from their knowledge... *you can't be more wrong! 
*
As I said, you simply have a too biased view to see even the reality of our indigenous developments and the involvement of foreign partners, which makes it not surprising that you don't want to understand facts. So lets leave it at that and don't waste more time.



Water Car Engineer said:


> So, faithfulguy, you're back?



Yeah, thought so too, but the mods have taken care


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## GORKHALI

Guys Here's your refreshment for the day:

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## subincb

SHIELD said:


> Guys Here's your refreshment for the day:



Is it just me or does everyone else also think LCA Navy looks better than Airforce version.


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## S-DUCT

subincb said:


> Is it just me or does everyone else also think LCA Navy looks better than Airforce version.


Quite opposite bro,IMO LCA airforce looks better than LCA Navy.


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## Varunastra

TakeNoBS said:


> How do you pronounce it? Is the word "j" pronounce as "h"?



No.........


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## GORKHALI

subincb said:


> Is it just me or does everyone else also think LCA Navy looks better than Airforce version.



It's an Air force Trainer version P-5


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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> That's exactly what I said, but since you purposly don't want to understand...
> 
> Take Mig 29K as an example, it would be much better for IN if we can integrate an Indian AESA to replace Zhuk ME, or to integrate Kaveri K10 when RD33 MK needs replacements, than developing a fully fledged N-LCA with the same techs, but on a less capable plattform.
> We would reduce the dependence on Russia, by increasing the indigenous content in the more capable Russian fighter!
> That's why developing simpler modifications now is more realistic according to our capabilities, than dreaming of something that we might be able to develop in some decades.



It seems you are so deeply engrossed in your dreams that reality defies you. Again, for all major modifications or upgrades like radar, engine, control laws and airframe for SU30s and Mig29k, India is bound to go to the original OEM. India cannot make modifications of major systems on its own. India can only make modifications when the OEM no longer has support for that fighter like the case of Jaguar. Your dream of fitting Indian radar and engine on Mig29 can only come true provided Russia no longer supports its upgrades. 



sancho said:


> For IN I already stated that AMCA would be the most important project and not such a nonsense like N-LCA. But again, you have to listen and at least try to understand what I say.



Where did IN state that? I think in your dreams because IN knows better than you, which is clear from its backing for the NLCA project. Kindly don't peddle nonsense here, while you are free to do that in your dreams. 





sancho said:


> On the other side, our most successful developments currently are Dhruv with Shakti engine and Brahmos, all thanks to credible help from foreign partners. Just like we got most of our knowledge in the radar and EW field from JV with Israeli companies, or why our privat companies are forming JVs, or simply taking over foreign companies to benefit from their knowledge... you can't be more wrong!



Wake up dude! Dhruv is Indian not russian. Dhruv program is similar to the LCA program where we tried to develop our first platform with foreign consultation. We can use any engine or for that matter any system that suits our requirement. This is not the case with SU30s and Mig29, both of which can only be upgraded with the help of the OEM. Talking about JV, it is nothing more than selling products via third parties that are Indian companies. you can't be more wrong if you expect that Indian companies will gain knowledge through JVs. The only knowledge they will gain is manufacturing and support. As far as taking over company is concerned that is a far fetched dream. 

It is time for you to wake up and smell the coffee. Foreign companies from russia, france ect are not here for charity that they will pass on critical Technology to Indian companies. Self reliance can only be achieved through indigenous programs like LCA, AMCA, Kaveri etc. Foreign consultation is always welcome for expediting the process.


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## Echo_419

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> It seems you are so deeply engrossed in your dreams that reality defies you. Again, for all major modifications or upgrades like radar, engine, control laws and airframe for SU30s and Mig29k, India is bound to go to the original OEM. India cannot make modifications of major systems on its own. India can only make modifications when the OEM no longer has support for that fighter like the case of Jaguar. Your dream of fitting Indian radar and engine on Mig29 can only come true provided Russia no longer supports its upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did IN state that? I think in your dreams because IN knows better than you, which is clear from its backing for the NLCA project. Kindly don't peddle nonsense here, while you are free to do that in your dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up dude! Dhruv is Indian not russian. Dhruv program is similar to the LCA program where we tried to develop our first platform with foreign consultation. We can use any engine or for that matter any system that suits our requirement. This is not the case with SU30s and Mig29, both of which can only be upgraded with the help of the OEM. Talking about JV, it is nothing more than selling products via third parties that are Indian companies. you can't be more wrong if you expect that Indian companies will gain knowledge through JVs. The only knowledge they will gain is manufacturing and support. As far as taking over company is concerned that is a far fetched dream.
> 
> It is time for you to wake up and smell the coffee. Foreign companies from russia, france ect are not here for charity that they will pass on critical Technology to Indian companies. Self reliance can only be achieved through indigenous programs like LCA, AMCA, Kaveri etc. Foreign consultation is always welcome for expediting the process.




Well said man

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## Abingdonboy

Aero-India 2013: Advanced Systems Improve Tejas

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## INDIAISM

^^
*Advanced Systems Improve Tejas&#8217; Fighting Skills
*
Posted by Tamir Eshel

As the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been in the making for much too long, but despite the delays, the aircraft that slowly moves toward the finish line is &#8216;born old&#8217;. If and when it is announced &#8216;fully mission capable&#8217; by next year, Tejas will represent a mid-1990s generation platform, but will be ready to deploy with combat systems of the 21 st century.
This has not come by choice &#8211; the Indian Government and research establishments insisted for decades that the LCA as other indigenous weapon systems should be 100 percent Indian designed and made. This attitude has stumbled the project for years, as Indian R&D centers were coping with knowledge gaps, technological issues or manufacturing capabilities. After three decades, as the aircraft is finally pacing toward the coveted (and much delayed) &#8216;fulloperational capability&#8217; status, it is clear that many of its subsystems are not domestic, and many others may be built in India but not Indian designed.
EL/M2052 AESA radar to be integrated in the LCA. Tamir Eshel, Defense-Update
Visit IAI at Aero-India
Assuming the Astra missile currently developed for the aircraft not meet the full flight envelope performance goals, the IAF and Indian Naval Aviation are integrating the Derby and Python 5 missiles on the aircraft, along with Russian R73 that was slated for the aircraft from the beginning, to meet the required full-operational capabilities level for the fighter. These weapons will be needed primarily to meet the Indian Navy requirement for carrier air defense, as the LCA will begin to replace the Sea Harriers that currently carry those missions with these weapons.
Elbit Systems at Aero-India
The LCA will also carry the EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar developed by IAI Elta. Originally, the EL/M-2032 was selected but the new 2052 now available with a more compact antenna is best designed to fit the nose cones of LCA and Jaguar, offering enhanced capabilities for both fighters. This agile radar, along with the DASH-3 helmet mounted display sight from Elbit Systems will enable a Tejas pilot to acquire targets at all combat ranges and engage them in full sphere, shooting the missiles by merely looking at the target, without having to maneuver the LCA toward the target, thus making the Tejas much more potent than the sum of its aerodynamic capabilities offer. In fact, such smart combat systems could provide the LCAs just that amount of survivability it needs to avoid trouble, safely carry out its mission and even win a dogfightif the situation &#8216;gets ugly&#8217;.
The aircraft will also be carrying the Liteningtargeting pod, enabling the LCA to deploy precision guided weapons of various types &#8211; from laser guided, to GPS or EO guided weapons.

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## subincb

SHIELD said:


> It's an Air force Trainer version P-5



Oops.. my mistake


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## kurup

Here's what the LCA-Navy boss C D Balaji had to say about his pet mission. While he is out of bounds for newspapers, it was worth finding a piece of info on NLCA after a long time. The above matter is taken from Aeromag Asia -- a publication piloted by former HAL chief CGK Nair and journalist Sunny Jerome.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Straight from the horse's mouth: Mag report on NLCA delays & more...

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Dhruv program is similar to the LCA program where we tried to develop our first platform with foreign consultation.



As you already admitted, you are full of your pride BS, that's why you don't see the reallity. Dhruv and LCA developments were completelly different, IF we had done LCA as Dhruv, it would be a success now!

Dhruv was designed by foreign partners, it used foreign core systems at first which were replaced with indigenous systems later, we formed JVs and co-developments (for Shakti engine for example) with foreign partners to gain know how and get modern techs according to our requirements. All this was sadly not done for LCA, because ADA and DRDO thought they could do it all alone.
That's exactly the reason why I am saying, that it's in our interest to keep things simple and constantly increase our capabilities, instead of dreaming big and failling even bigger! 

But as long there are people like you that simply buy their promises and nobody takes them to account for their failures and mistakes, they will continue to do same mistakes on and on. 
I am more than happy that the DM and the air Chief used Aero India to publically put more pressure on them and to showed the reality. Just like they are not as naiv as you are and pushing more and more for participation of our industry with foreign companies, be it the government owned or the privat once. Just like they understood the importance of ToT and offsets to imporve our industry, because if we remain with nothing but HOPE on our industry alone, we will remain to be disappointed.

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## MehrotraPrince

sancho said:


> As you already admitted, you are full of your pride BS, that's why you don't see the reallity. Dhruv and LCA developments were completelly different, IF we had done LCA as Dhruv, it would be a success now!
> 
> Dhruv was designed by foreign partners, it used foreign core systems at first which were replaced with indigenous systems later, we formed JVs and co-developments (for Shakti engine for example) with foreign partners to gain know how and get modern techs according to our requirements. All this was sadly not done for LCA, because ADA and DRDO thought they could do it all alone.
> That's exactly the reason why I am saying, that it's in our interest to keep things simple and constantly increase our capabilities, instead of dreaming big and failling even bigger!
> 
> But as long there are people like you that simply buy their promises and nobody takes them to account for their failures and mistakes, they will continue to do same mistakes on and on.
> I am more than happy that the DM and the air Chief used Aero India to publically put more pressure on them and to showed the reality. Just like they are not as naiv as you are and pushing more and more for participation of our industry with foreign companies, be it the government owned or the privat once. Just like they understood the importance of ToT and offsets to imporve our industry, because if we remain with nothing but HOPE on our industry alone, we will remain to be disappointed.


 Go through this thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/233416-alh-dhruv-truth-first-hand.html

*I am just highlighting the important points:*

1. Against these very high benchmarks and somewhat sweeping and futuristic expectations, the Government set up a Negotiations Committee to explore the possibility of collaboration with Aerospatiale (France) or MBB (Germany).

2. The fact remains that some of the futuristic design options put forth by MBB were initially resounding failures. The project that was supposed to have progressed smoothly under the tutelage of advanced German technology, instead stumbled badly to almost a point of no-return and required extreme effort by our indigenous teams to recover, re-develop from basic design stages and optimise for production.

3. It would also appear that MBB had either over-estimated their capabilities or perhaps had even attempted to experiment the feasibility of some of these concepts at the cost of our project.

4. Abrupt Departure of MBB. During 1994-95, MBB&#8217;s involvement in design consultancy of the project abruptly ceased as their contract had expired and was not renewed for any further period. This period was crucial, as flights of the first prototypes were well underway and all the design related problems were showing up on test-benches, Ground Test Vehicle (GTV) and on the prototypes. Issues pertaining to repeated and early failures of the MGB, failures of the ARIS, weight increase, etc had very clearly manifested during this period. Whatever the imperatives of that decision were, the fact remains that this abrupt and untimely departure of MBB resulted in a whole lot of very problematic design issues relating to various complicated systems suddenly being tackled solely by designers of HAL. This was compounded by the fact that our designers did not have any previous experience. All this resulted in an iterative approach in attempting several design alternatives for rectification that sometimes did not work, usually required repetitious testing and almost always contributed to delays.

*Main Gear Box(MGB)*

(a) The MGB is designed to be compact, light-weight, yet capable of handling the high power output of the two turboshaft engines. It comprises only a two-stage reduction, with a large diameter central collective gear that has a titanium stub-shaft directly bolted onto it. The large diameter was mostly dictated by the need to run the control rods inside the rotor shaft. The stub-shaft in turn is attached to the titanium centre-piece that has the main rotor blades attached to it. The compact, squat and light-weight MGB frees up huge amounts of cabin space below, which is essentially the secret to the ALH&#8217;s excellent cabin volume. The project to develop the MGB was sub-contracted by MBB to ZF (Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen), Germany, a drive-train specialist that had previous aviation experience limited to developing and building gear boxes for the smaller MBB&#8217;s BK-117 and Bo-105 helicopters.

(b) Although ZF&#8217;s BK-117 MGB also uses a two-stage reduction, it has important differences in layout and geometry of the bevel and collective gears. Also, it handles only about half of the power of the ALH MGB. The first series of ALH MGBs were spectacular failures &#8211; these would not even last one hour of ground run on the Ground Test Vehicle (GTV). After every ground run, shed gear material would be found on the magnetic plugs indicating commencement of gear teeth failures. Initially ZF&#8217;s MGBs stubbornly refused to improve despite various efforts and this threatened to bring the whole project literally and figuratively to a grinding halt. After MBB (and ZF) left, it took our dedicated in-house transmission team many years of sweat and hard work, to recover the situation by going back to the drawing board, experiment with several remedial measures and introduce numerous modifications, so as to gradually bring the MGB to production standard. Obviously, this caused severe delays in the project.

*ARIS Vibration Dampers*

(a) Based on MBB&#8217;s recommendations, it had been decided to introduce a new high-tech three-axis vibration damping system to attenuate main rotor vibrations. There are four ARIS (Anti Resonance Isolation System) dampers and the MGB is mounted on these to isolate vibrations developed by the main rotor from the fuselage. Like the MGB, the initial ARIS design by MBB was another spectacular failure. All four ARIS failed halfway through the first flight itself and on return, all the four ARIS&#8217;s composite diaphragms were found cracked. Like the MGB, the ARIS proved to be another extremely difficult design failure to correct. Despite initial modifications, the ARIS springs used to routinely fail within 10 hours of flight. Again after MBB left, it was another herculean task again taken on by our in-house vibration analyses group to re-design, experiment and gradually bring the ARIS to a standard suited for production aircraft.

(b) Subsequently, it was learnt that MBB had worked in parallel on another version of vibration isolators and had installed a simpler two-axis SARIB vibration dampers on their Tiger attack helicopter, which uses a main rotor similar to the ALH. During an informal interaction many years later with MBB&#8217;s then chief designer for ALH in India, he candidly indicated to this author that the ARIS in his opinion was not an easy concept to implement and should not have been used for a first-time project like the ALH. Here it would appear that there was an attempt by MBB to experiment with an uncertain high-risk design option on our project.

Subsequently, it was learnt that MBB had worked in parallel on another version of vibration isolators and had installed a simpler two-axis SARIB vibration dampers on their Tiger attack helicopter, which uses a main rotor similar to the ALH. During an informal interaction many years later with MBB&#8217;s then chief designer for ALH in India, he candidly indicated to this author that the ARIS in his opinion was not an easy concept to implement and should not have been used for a first-time project like the ALH. Here it would appear that there was an attempt by MBB to experiment with an uncertain high-risk design option on our project.

*This is the negative side of JV when other partner knows that you have no indigenous project of your own.

As far as LCA is concerned HAL+DRDO+ADA is responsible for only 30 % in delay, 50% responsibility lies with Air Force who from time to time tried to sabotage the project (not whole Air Force but a specific lobby) and rest 20% due to external factors like sanctions.*


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## indiatester

MehrotraPrince said:


> Go through this thread
> *This is the negative side of JV when other partner knows that you have no indigenous project of your own.*



There is a -ve side to any project. They are calculated in risks and have to be handled appropriately.
If the JV partner knows that we do not have an indigenous product, the loss for us would be that we will be paying them higher for possibly lesser technology. This is where the negotiating committee should define the project deliverables, quality expectation and time lines. Strict penalty guidelines can also be included.
Remember the JV partner can have the know how, but we have the money.


MehrotraPrince said:


> *
> As far as LCA is concerned HAL+DRDO+ADA is responsible for only 30 % in delay, 50% responsibility lies with Air Force who from time to time tried to sabotage the project (not whole Air Force but a specific lobby) and rest 20% due to external factors like sanctions.*



Instead of putting arbitrary percentages, can you justify them? Why is Air Force responsible to 50% time delay? For a fighter that was supposed to enter into service in 1995 (IIRC), how are you going to justify the delay of ~17 years and counting. Can we put up a timeline diagram explaining the problem to delay association.

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## MehrotraPrince

indiatester said:


> Instead of putting arbitrary percentages, can you justify them? Why is Air Force responsible to 50% time delay? For a fighter that was supposed to enter into service in 1995 (IIRC), how are you going to justify the delay of ~17 years and counting. Can we put up a timeline diagram explaining the problem to delay association.



The problem with most of the people on PDF is that most of them are either internet worriers or they love nit picking.

Not everything is disclosed to media, we rarely come across reports like this (Development of Dhruv project).

I don't know how good you are involved directly or indirectly in LCA project, but still let me tell you that IAF tried to sabotage LCA project from day one. Before the first flight of LCA a report was send to MOD that LCA is going to crash (this fact came to public after long time), but still LCA completed its maiden flight successfully. The report was prepared by some foreign agency with help of some senior IAF officers who never wanted LCA project to continue.

One proof is *Inside DRDO series* (Discovery Channel) documentary.

If you really want to learn about LCA and other projects, attitude of IAF, attitude of Indian Navy then please watch AeroIndia 2013 presentation, its easily available on youtube.


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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> This is the negative side of JV when other partner knows that you have no indigenous project of your own.



That's the negative side in any deal with partners, when they know that you have zero know how to bring in the project and still, it turned out as a success, it made our helicopter industry way stronger than the fighter industry after decades of indigenous developments, which nobody really can deny or?
We now are able to re-design the Dhruv on our own, to design own helicopters, to develop own glas cockpits and cockpit displays..., which never would have been possible now if we didn't JVured with European or Israeli partners that showed us how to do it.



MehrotraPrince said:


> As far as LCA is concerned HAL+DRDO+ADA is responsible for only 30 % in delay, 50% responsibility lies with Air Force who from time to time tried to sabotage the project (not whole Air Force but a specific lobby) and rest 20% due to external factors like sanctions.[/B]



And the same old excuses again, especially the sanction part, as if anybody stopped us from getting Russian, French or Israeli techs during that time. 

We had more than enough options, but we made the wrong decisions from the start and continued to do so. I find it funny when people blame the operator, which has no part in the development of the fighter or it's techs other then putting out requirements they need and when these requirements gets old and have to be re-evaluated, BECAUSE the development is delayed for more than a decade, people blame IAF for it and not those who actually caused the delays!

So is your point really that IAF lobby caused overweight and drag issues of LCA, that Kaveri is a failure and that the radar seems not to be ready either?
The fact is, ADA and DRDO are mainly responsible for the development and program management so far, IAF only set up air staff requirements and not do the testing and certifcating and I totally agree with anybody that they should have done it simpler and faster, but that has nothing to do with the development of the fighter in general, so how should it cause 50% of the delay?

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## BLEND

Livefist: First Look: LCA Mk.2 Air Intake Wind-Tunnel Model

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## indiatester

MehrotraPrince said:


> The problem with most of the people on PDF is that most of them are either internet worriers or they love nit picking.



Sir, nit picking would be when we have a product and we are fussing over minor details. We on the other hand have major issue. Be it the time lines, weight, engine, radar, we have big complaints. You can't call the nit picking. You are trying to prove that the armed forces don't really know what they want. I may even buy that argument if you had enough fighting men supporting your version.



MehrotraPrince said:


> Not everything is disclosed to media, we rarely come across reports like this (Development of Dhruv project).
> 
> I don't know how good you are involved directly or indirectly in LCA project, but still let me tell you that IAF tried to sabotage LCA project from day one. Before the first flight of LCA a report was send to MOD that LCA is going to crash (this fact came to public after long time), but still LCA completed its maiden flight successfully. The report was prepared by some foreign agency with help of some senior IAF officers who never wanted LCA project to continue.
> 
> One proof is *Inside DRDO series* (Discovery Channel) documentary.
> 
> If you really want to learn about LCA and other projects, attitude of IAF, attitude of Indian Navy then please watch AeroIndia 2013 presentation, its easily available on youtube.


I am not involved with defence. I am one of those internet warriors 
But I have been brain washed by multinational companies to treat customer requirements as critical and keeping them happy with my solution is my responsibility. If I blame my customer, I lose my job.

I'll advise the same to HAL/DRDO. Please ensure that IAF and IN are happy.


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## shree835

*Critical Review of LCA Tejas*



March 04, 2013: The LCA Tejas showed off some of its operational prowess at the recent Iron Fist fire power demonstration over the Thar Desertthe platform was fielded after the IAF expressed keenness in seeing the aircraft perform alongside other inventory types. The LCA Tejas fired an R-73 missile and dropped precision guided bombs during the demonstration. With the platform now on a final leg ahead of the second phase of initial operational clearance (IOC-2), a critical review of lessons learned from the testing of the Tejas was presented recently as a paper at Aero India by the man who leads the flight test programme on the Tejas at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) and Aeronautical Development Agency. 

In an insightful paper on the aircraft and lessons learned from it, Air Commodore K.A. Muthana has delved into never before areas that could prove to be crucial for future development programmesincluding higher defence management, clarity on standards, clarity on path certification, clarity on agencies involved, involvement of the Indian Air Force from the ab initio stage (which he observes was absent), evaluation of prototypes and, crucially, the process of transition from design to manufacture. As an individual who perhaps knows the Tejas as a machine better than anyone else from a pilot's perspective, the paper could prove to be the beginnings of a more elaborate review of the Tejas programme at large, and feed into future developments like the all important Tejas Mk.2 and the futuristic AMCA. Says Air Cmde Muthana in his paper, "The Indian light combat aircraft (LCA) was conceived in the early 1980s and is now on the threshold of entering squadron service. The legacy of this aircrafts development has resulted in true challenges to deployment being faced at a very late stage. There are even insinuations that this aircraft has been more of a success to the scientists in lab coats than to the war fighter in flight suits. True; this fine aircraft has been hostage to a series of systemic shortcomings. There are significant lessons here for the Indian aviation industry. It is vitally important that these lessons are imbibed in order to move forward coherently in building a strong aeronautics industry in this country." He ends by saying, "Tejas is a wonderful flying machine. It deserved to be in squadron service years ago. Remedial action on many of the shortcomings commented upon, if implemented even now, will favorably impact timelines for IOC and FOC of the Tejas Mk 1 aircraft. Favourable impact on Tejas Mk 2 and other future programmes will be enormous."


."

Critical Review of LCA Tejas - SP's Aviation

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2061 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-105,LSP4-66,LSP5-139,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2068 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,*LSP3-107*,*LSP4-67*,*LSP5-142*,LSP7-27,NP1-4)


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## Cyberian

Salaam to all the Muslims,



What is the point of this aircraft? Will it ever be inducted? How long they going to keep it on life support. Let the poor 30-years-old experimental aircrafts retire in peace.

Or is it political corruption that's keeping it alive?


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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> As you already admitted, you are full of your pride BS, that's why you don't see the reallity. Dhruv and LCA developments were completelly different, IF we had done LCA as Dhruv, it would be a success now!
> 
> Dhruv was designed by foreign partners, it used foreign core systems at first which were replaced with indigenous systems later, we formed JVs and co-developments (for Shakti engine for example) with foreign partners to gain know how and get modern techs according to our requirements. All this was sadly not done for LCA, because ADA and DRDO thought they could do it all alone.
> That's exactly the reason why I am saying, that it's in our interest to keep things simple and constantly increase our capabilities, instead of dreaming big and failling even bigger!
> 
> But as long there are people like you that simply buy their promises and nobody takes them to account for their failures and mistakes, they will continue to do same mistakes on and on.
> I am more than happy that the DM and the air Chief used Aero India to publically put more pressure on them and to showed the reality. Just like they are not as naiv as you are and pushing more and more for participation of our industry with foreign companies, be it the government owned or the privat once. Just like they understood the importance of ToT and offsets to imporve our industry, because if we remain with nothing but HOPE on our industry alone, we will remain to be disappointed.





I have no idea which world you live into...

1. Both LCA and Dhruv have contacted for foreign help.
2. LCA went for Own engine (as no one was ready to give us engine) whr as Dhruv went for foreign engine (as French were ready to give)
3. Both Software programs were written with foreign help, LCA lost all software due to sanction while Sanction didn't hit indo-french relations...

Like wise there are many similarities, LCA got setback coz of American embargo, while French didn't put any... 


Nothing wrong in dreaming big, But I agree that LCA project was not pragmatic.



MehrotraPrince said:


> The problem with most of the people on PDF is that most of them are either internet worriers or they love nit picking.
> 
> Not everything is disclosed to media, we rarely come across reports like this (Development of Dhruv project).
> 
> I don't know how good you are involved directly or indirectly in LCA project, but still let me tell you that IAF tried to sabotage LCA project from day one. Before the first flight of LCA a report was send to MOD that LCA is going to crash (this fact came to public after long time), but still LCA completed its maiden flight successfully. The report was prepared by some foreign agency with help of some senior IAF officers who never wanted LCA project to continue.
> 
> One proof is *Inside DRDO series* (Discovery Channel) documentary.
> 
> If you really want to learn about LCA and other projects,* attitude of IAF, attitude of Indian Navy then please watch AeroIndia 2013 presentation, its easily available on youtube*.






Bro please post this video.. I want to see how badly our Politicians can sabotage Indian interests, How much they can betray... If India will fall all big Families will escape from India.



SUPARCO said:


> *Salaam to all the Muslims,*
> 
> What is the point of this aircraft? Will it ever be inducted? How long they going to keep it on life support.  Let the poor 30-years-old experimental aircrafts retire in peace.
> 
> Or is it political corruption that's keeping it alive?
> 
> *Salaam to all the Muslims.*






Why r u *salaming* only Mulsims?? 

Start with Salam, end with Salam...

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> *As you already admitted, you are full of your pride BS, that's why you don't see the reallity*.



Irritated when your bubbles are bursting? 



sancho said:


> Dhruv was designed by foreign partners, it used foreign core systems at first which were replaced with indigenous systems later, we formed JVs and co-developments (for Shakti engine for example) with foreign partners to gain know how and get modern techs according to our requirements. All this was sadly not done for LCA, because ADA and DRDO thought they could do it all alone.




Dhruv was designed by HAL in consultation with foreign partners, which is different from keeping things simple by a direct purchase of MKI version of some foreign heli. HAL very much owns the aero design of Dhruv and that is the reason it can modify it on its will. Allow me to burst one more bubble of yurs and show you the reality how Foreign consultant had screwed up the Dhruv project, Hope you learn one or two things today or may be its of no use because of your selective amnesia:




> 1. Against these very high benchmarks and somewhat sweeping and futuristic expectations, the Government set up a Negotiations Committee to explore the possibility of collaboration with Aerospatiale (France) or MBB (Germany).
> 
> 2. The fact remains that some of the futuristic design options put forth by MBB were initially resounding failures. The project that was supposed to have progressed smoothly under the tutelage of advanced German technology, instead stumbled badly to almost a point of no-return and required *extreme effort by our indigenous teams to recover, re-develop from basic design stages and optimise for production.*
> 
> 3. It would also appear that *MBB had either over-estimated their capabilities or perhaps had even attempted to experiment the feasibility of some of these concepts at the cost of our project.*
> 
> 4. Abrupt Departure of MBB. During 1994-95, MBBs involvement in design consultancy of the project abruptly ceased as their contract had expired and was not renewed for any further period. This period was crucial, as flights of the first prototypes were well underway and all the design related problems were showing up on test-benches, Ground Test Vehicle (GTV) and on the prototypes. Issues pertaining to repeated and early failures of the MGB, failures of the ARIS, weight increase, etc had very clearly manifested during this period. Whatever the imperatives of that decision were, the fact remains that this *abrupt and untimely departure of MBB resulted in a whole lot of very problematic design issues relating to various complicated systems suddenly being tackled solely by designers of HAL.* This was compounded by the fact that our designers did not have any previous experience. All this resulted in an iterative approach in attempting several design alternatives for rectification that sometimes did not work, usually required repetitious testing and almost always contributed to delays.



So departure of foreign consultant was a blessing in disguise as now HAL had to redo everything on its own. This whole experience has made HAL self reliant in designing Helos of that concerned class and will help in development of heavy class helos. *I thank the involved decision makers who took risk and did not follow your logic of keeping things simple by purchasing some MKI version of foreign helicopter on the name of JV. *




sancho said:


> we formed JVs and co-developments (for Shakti engine for example) with foreign partners to *gain know how and get modern techs according to our requirements*. All this was sadly not done for LCA, because ADA and DRDO thought they could do it all alone.
> That's exactly the reason why I am saying, that it's in our interest to keep things simple and constantly increase our capabilities, instead of dreaming big and failling even bigger!



As you put it rightly, a JV can only get you latest technology along with know-how to manufacture and maintain it, nothing beyond that. For any future upgrade or next gen development, you will have to run to the OEM like we did for high performance shakti engines because we did not get any capability from the JV to modify the engine on our own. On top of that, OEM takes advantage by charging exorbitant charges for future upgrades like the case of LUH engine where HAL was considering going for a different engine. 

That is why keeping things simple by doing JV will not help you in the long run. keeping things simple by doing JV is a short term solution to gain capability to manufacture and maintain latest technology. * As per your logic, we should have been self reliant by now in making heli engines by doing JV in the 90s, but that is not the case. By keeping things simple, One will always be reliant on the OEM for future upgrades and next gen technologies like we find in case of Shakti engine.* 

If you are just content to gain latest technology manufacturing capability from outside then doing JV is fine. But for India, manufacturing latest technology in house is the ultimate goal and so investing in high risk programs is vital for achieving self reliance despite of the delays and performance short falls. taking big risks like the case of LCA program makes us self reliant in current technologies as well as ensures we are capable enough to develop next gen tech based on the R&D capabilities gained. LCA has made us self reliant in unstable aerostructre design, composites, glass cockpit avionics, FBW FCS design all that will help us in any future upgrade of LCA and any new program like AMCA. Even the kaveri program has given us far more design and development know-how than what we gained through JV involving shakti engine where we still cannot even upgrade the engine on our own and are at OEM's mercy for any future upgrade.

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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## MehrotraPrince

Black Widow said:


> Bro please post this video.. I want to see how badly our Politicians can sabotage Indian interests, How much they can betray... If India will fall all big Families will escape from India.



*India's Naval Light Combat Aircraft* presentation AeroIndia 2013






*Critical Lessons Learnt From The Design And Development Of LCA*






Also watch *"Design And Integration Challenges In Helicopters Operating From Warships"* please search it on youtube and watch whole video.


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## r1MM0n

Tejas - Aero India 2013 - YouTube


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## sancho

shree835 said:


> *Critical Review of LCA Tejas*
> 
> There are significant lessons here for the Indian aviation industry. *It is vitally important that these lessons are imbibed in order to move forward coherently in building a strong aeronautics industry in this country*." He ends by saying, "Tejas is a wonderful flying machine. *It deserved to be in squadron service years ago.*



Totally agree with him!


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> I have no idea which world you live into...
> 
> 2. LCA went for Own engine (*as no one was ready to give us engine*)



In the reality, were such made up excuses doesn't hold their own, besides that we had access to all Russian engines, let me make it even more obvious for you than it already is (if you look at it unbiased). IF bot developments would have gone the same way, it would have been like this:

Dhruv prototypes and first production versions - Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 (procured by France)
LCA prototypes and first production versions - Snecma M53-P2 (procured by France)
Dhruv upgrade versions - Shakti engine (co-developed with France)
LCA upgrade versions - Kaveri engine (co-developed with France)


Same different pattern can be seen with other parts as well:

Dhruv prototypes and first production versions - conventional cockpit (parts mainly procured)
Dhruv upgrade versions - modern glasscockpit (co-developed with Israel)






So we started with proven and ready foreign techs and replaced them during upgrades with indigenous or co-developed techs. We used JV and co-development partners to get techs according to our requirements and didn't tried to do it alone and when that turned out to be a mess, begged for help.
We used mainly European and Israeli help for Dhruv, since they were ready to provide is with the necessary techs and were reliable and didn't went back and forth beween doing it alone, consulting US, European, Isralis and doing tests in Russia, like in LCA / Kaveris case.

The core point is, we had a straight pattern at Dhruv to get know how and proven techs from foreign partners, until we learned how to do it on our own. For things we couldn't do alone, were done in JVs or co-developments from the start and not afterwords.

The result can be seen now in form of Dhruv MK3, Mk4, Rudra and LCH re-designs, or the LUH development, simply a success story, because we did it the right way and not because nobody was there to provide us techs or partnerships!

The only excuse that I accept for LCA, where the budget problems that the project faced in the early years and that for sure had an effect, but anything else is a result of disastrous project management and planning, or of simply too much pride and overestimation of our industry!

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> As you put it rightly, a JV can only get you latest technology along with know-how to manufacture and maintain it, nothing beyond that. For any future upgrade or next gen development, you will have to run to the OEM like we did for high performance shakti engines because we did not get any capability from the JV to modify the engine on our own. On top of that, OEM takes advantage by charging exorbitant charges for future upgrades like the case of LUH engine where HAL was considering going for a different engine.



Exactly, just like Russia let us pay for every nut and bold of their fighters, that we can't produce in India. But that's why we need to set up an aero industry that can provide a basline of techs and systems on their own and not one that starts with the most complicated part (engine development) from the start and makes the whole fighter project dependent on it.
That's why it was the right way for Dhruv to take off the shelf engines and co-developments for an engine, while it was the prime mistake of the LCA project, to belive DRDO would be able to provide the engine on their own. Steady progress, starting from the low end, that is what we need and where we are, not dreaming about things that are totally out of our capabilities!

*If DRDO wanted to develop an engine alone, why not? But in a seperate tech demonstrator program and not with the risk making the most important Indian aerospace project suffer from their failures!*

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## Alfa-Fighter

MehrotraPrince said:


> The problem with most of the people on PDF is that most of them are either internet worriers or they love nit picking.
> 
> Not everything is disclosed to media, we rarely come across reports like this (Development of Dhruv project).
> 
> I don't know how good you are involved directly or indirectly in LCA project, but still let me tell you that IAF tried to sabotage LCA project from day one. Before the first flight of LCA a report was send to MOD that LCA is going to crash (this fact came to public after long time), but still LCA completed its maiden flight successfully. The report was prepared by some foreign agency with help of some senior IAF officers who never wanted LCA project to continue.
> 
> One proof is *Inside DRDO series* (Discovery Channel) documentary.
> 
> If you really want to learn about LCA and other projects, attitude of IAF, attitude of Indian Navy then please watch AeroIndia 2013 presentation, its easily available on youtube.



Very true, Many foreign countries whose gonna loose $$$ if India able to make Planes, therefore though their Agents in IAF /Army they want to sabotage the Indian Products.

Like wise Arjun which sabotage by Army since start , sometimes they they want this and when they develop this they saying they dont want , Actually Army didn't complained about T-90 when its engine / Electronics failed in High temp of Raj. but quick to complain on Arjun for their minor failures. 

Likewise , Many countries loose lot of Business when India started producing own weapons so they do whatever it takes to sabotage these projects.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2068 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-107,LSP4-67,LSP5-142,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2074 Test Flights Successfully. (06-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-353,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,*LSP3-108,LSP4-68,LSP5-145*,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

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## kurup

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2074 Test Flights Successfully. (06-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-353,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-108,LSP4-68,LSP5-145,LSP7-27,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed *2084* Test Flights Successfully. (*11-Mar-2013*).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-353,LSP1-74,*LSP2-258*,PV5-36,*LSP3-113*,LSP4-68,*LSP5-147,LSP7-29*,NP1-4

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## quranak343

If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!


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## IND151

*The country&#8217;s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) &#8216;Tejas&#8217; programme is now expected to be completed only by March 2015 *and is one of the major projects undertaken by the Defence Research Development Organisation(DRDO) which is running behind schedule by several years, the Rajya Sabha was informed on Wednesday.

*Union Defence Minister A K Antony *said in a written reply that the deadline for the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; project, which was originally scheduled for completion by December 2008, was likely to be extended till March 2015 as it had already breached the December 2012 revised deadline.

The IAF is eagerly waiting for the DRDO to complete the LCA project so that it could replace the ageing Soviet-era MiG-21s,which had earned the sobriquet&#8217;flying coffins&#8217; following the numerous air crashes involving them.

The Upper House was also informed that as many as 34 MiG fighter planes had crashed in the last five years and six pilots were killed in the accidents along with five civilians. As for the DRDO&#8217;s delayed projects, the minister noted that the Naval LCA was now scheduled for completion by December 2014 as opposed to its original schedule of March 2010.

The Naval LCAs are likely to be the combat air element of the country&#8217;s first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) that is now under construction at the Cochin Shipyard (CSL) and which in all likelihood may join the Navy by December 2015.

Similarly, the indigenous aeroengine &#8216;Kaveri&#8217;, which the DRDO had been developing for the LCA too was badly delayed, resulting in the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) going in for the American GE F414 engines for the Mark-II versions of the combat plane.

The Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&CS), a transport aircraft-mounted radar known as a major force multiplier capable of being an &#8216;eye-in-the-sky&#8217; for the Indian armed forces, too has been delayed and will now be ready only by March 2014.

Also running behind schedule is the *Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM)*, which is now* scheduled *for* completion* only in *December 2015.*

Antony said the reasons for the delay in these projects included ab initio development of the state-of-the-art technologies, non-availability of trained and skilled manpower to work on the projects and lack of infrastructure and test facilities in the country.

Regarding the delay in the ongoin*g Scorpene submarines&#8217; project *at the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL), the minister blamed it on the slow procurement of the raw materials. *&#8220;The project is being closely monitored by the Union Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Navy to ensure its completion without any further delay,&#8221; *he said.

â&#8364;&#732;Tejasâ&#8364;&#8482; LCA project likely to be completed in 2015 | idrw.org


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## kurup



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## Alfa-Fighter

quranak343 said:


> If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!


Russia has nothing to do with LCA


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## Matrixx

quranak343 said:


> If LCA is ever succeded that basically means that Russians finally did it!



If LCA fails...India did it..
If LCA succeed ....Russia did it...

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> *Grippen is very much Swedish plane with GE4XX engine, while LCA won't be Indian plane with same engine*



That's a point we should clear up, we all know this graphic of the origin of Gripens system:

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/gripen-partners.jpg


Would be interesting if we can confirm this for the origin of LCA MK1s systems as well, so lets discuss this and collect credible sources (please don't link just wiki, but you can use sources from wiki, ideally sources from the manufacturer itself!!!):

*Control Stick / Throttle Lever* -
*Audio Management System* -
*Escape System* - 
*Enviromental Control System* -
*Fuel System* -
*Hydraulic System* - 
*Auxiliary Power System* -
*Servos* - 
*Engine* - US (General Electric) F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft | Press Release
*Landing Gear* - 
*Wheel Brakes and Brake Control System* - 
*Gun* - 
*Airframe* - IN (?)
*In-flight Refuelling Probe* - Not available on MK1 (MK2 rumored to get one from Chobham UK as well)
*System Computer* - 
*Flight Control System* - IN (ADE) DRDO
*Air Data Computer* - 
*Radome* - IN (ADA) 
*Radar* - IN (DRDO) 
*Electronic Displays System* - IN (CSIR) http://oasis.csir.res.in/gum/fupld\mdocs\clc2012\CSIR-PS-CSIO-LC April 2012.pdf

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## S-DUCT

sancho said:


> That's a point we should clear up, we all know this graphic of the origin of Gripens system:
> 
> http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/gripen-partners.jpg
> 
> 
> Would be interesting if we can confirm this for the origin of LCA MK1s systems as well, so lets discuss this and collect credible sources (please don't link just wiki, but you can use sources from wiki, ideally sources from the manufacturer itself!!!):
> 
> *Control Stick / Throttle Lever* -
> *Audio Management System* -
> *Escape System* -
> *Enviromental Control System* -
> *Fuel System* -
> *Hydraulic System* -
> *Auxiliary Power System* -
> *Servos* -
> *Engine* - US (General Electric) F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft | Press Release
> *Landing Gear* -
> *Wheel Brakes and Brake Control System* -
> *Gun* -
> *Airframe* - IN (?)
> *In-flight Refuelling Probe* - Not available on MK1 (MK2 rumored to get one from Chobham UK as well)
> *System Computer* -
> *Flight Control System* - IN (ADE) DRDO
> *Air Data Computer* -
> *Radome* - IN (ADA)
> *Radar* - IN (DRDO)
> *Electronic Displays System* - IN (CSIR) http://oasis.csir.res.in/gum/fupld\mdocs\clc2012\CSIR-PS-CSIO-LC April 2012.pdf


*Air Data Computer*-BEL(IN) BEL delivers critical systems for over 50 LCAs - The New Indian Express

*Escape System* - Martin-Baker ejection seat(UK)

*Enviromental Control System* - Spectrum Infotech (IN) but many ECS like cabin shut-off valve and ESOV are imported. Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter - Airforce Technology

*Hydraulic System* - Some parts are being imported drdo.gov.in/drdo/whatsnew/Indeginization.pdf

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## indian_foxhound

Naval LCA at HAL production facility

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## Sergi

indian_foxhound said:


> Naval LCA at HAL production facility



Is it an old image or we are making second proto ???


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## Sergi

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/241240-delay-manufacturing-tejas-drdo.html


> Productionisation of LCA is already going on. *First series production aircraft is likely to be ready by the end of 2013*. Indian Air Force has already placed order for 20 LCA in IOC configuration and another of 20 LCA in FOC configuration.



anybody have more info on underline and bolder part ???


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## indian_foxhound

Sergi said:


> Is it an old image or we are making second proto ???


 its a new one

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## Sergi

indian_foxhound said:


> its a new one



Great 
Any more detail ??? Like changes from previous proto ???

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## indian_foxhound

Sergi said:


> Great
> Any more detail ??? Like changes from previous proto ???



not till now..... but searching...... will tell you ASAP if there is any

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## Sergi

indian_foxhound said:


> not till now..... but searching...... will tell you ASAP if there is any



I hope it will be based on Mark-2

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## indian_foxhound

Sergi said:


> I hope it will be based on Mark-2



its a 5th proto 
here is the news for that http://www.deccanherald.com/content/247066/now-team-lca-gearing-up.html

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## rockstarIN

Sergi said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/241240-delay-manufacturing-tejas-drdo.html
> 
> 
> anybody have more info on underline and bolder part ???



Series production already started and what I read earlier that by end of 2013, we will have 2 SP jets.

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## Jason bourne

I dont remember exactly but i think lsp 7 and lsp 8 to be handed over to iaf in 2012 or 2013 ...


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2084 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-353,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-113,LSP4-68,LSP5-147,LSP7-29,NP1-4)
to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2106 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-354*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,*LSP3-121*,*LSP4-70*,*LSP5-153*,*LSP7-34*,NP1-4)

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## sancho

22000lb = 98kN, which should end the speculations about LCA MK2 getting the EPE version.

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## RPK



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## IND151

sancho said:


> *22000lb = 98kN, *which should end the speculations about LCA MK2 getting the EPE version.



around 9,900 KG


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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## S-DUCT

Flight Test Update.

LCA-Tejas has completed 2106 Test Flights Successfully. (*20-Mar-2013*).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-354*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-70*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

To

LCA-Tejas has completed 2109 Test Flights Successfully. (*25-Mar-2013*).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-356*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-71*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)


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## indiatester

S-DUCT said:


> Flight Test Update.
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2106 Test Flights Successfully. (*20-Mar-2013*).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-354*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-70*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)
> 
> To
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2109 Test Flights Successfully. (*25-Mar-2013*).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-356*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-71*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)



I thought I saw one Tejas fly today. Just got a glimpse so not sure.


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## rockstarIN

@sancho i like your avatar

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## DARKY

LSP 8 had its maiden flight today at HAL airport in Bangalore. It was piloted by Air Cmdr Muthanna, NFTC head.
It went supersonic, and achieved Alpha 20.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: LSP-8 maiden flight successful

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## sancho



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## sancho

rockstar said:


> @sancho i like your avatar



After 3 years here I thought it was time for one.

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## sancho

Guys, please use this thread for LCA discussions and news, to keep them at one place which makes it easier to find interesting stuff later too.



manojb said:


> Did anyone notice the air intake in front of tail fin! That was first think I noticed.



That's the APU intake, but it's not actually new. They have made some changes last year with the arrival of LSP 6 and 7 to reduce drag, just like at the air intakes.

Older version without APU and air intake changes:

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## sancho

Srinivas said:


> If LCA is a sucessful we can also venture into other countries market by selling it cheaper than any other country.



There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it. 



Koovie said:


> I know, but HAL should rather concentrate on the current LCA, thats enough. The higher the number of projects, the higher the possibility of delay. HAL will have to work on the SU 30MKI production, the entire Rafale program, the FGFA program and many other things. And HAL is not really known for its project management skills....



N-LCA was proposed to IN by ADA/DRDO not by HAL, HAL is just the manufacturer and responsible for production and testing, the developers are ADA/DRDO.




janon said:


> How else would we learn to navalize a fighter? If we want a homegrown 5th gen fighter to take off from our carriers (N-AMCA) we will HAVE to learn this, and we can only learn it with our own product.



Sorry mate, but that makes no sense.

1) You don't need a fully fledged carrier fighter program to learn how to navailise fighters, you ONLY need tech demonstrators

2) Navalising LCA to N-LCA for STOBAR carriers is way simpler, than navalising a fighter for CATOBAR carriers, so if we go for catapults on IAC2, we hardly learned anything useful with N-LCA.

3) Navalising a 4th gen design is simpler than a 5th generation one

4) We could have learned this from Russia, as a return of beeing Mig 29Ks main operator, or as they suggested by developing the naval design for Pak Fa / FGFA (for example about folding wings, which we didn't learned anything yet)

5) We don't learn now because it's an Indian product, but because we chose EADS (which is a questionable selection itself) as a consulting partner for the navalising




janon said:


> Imagine how much OPEX costs the IN can save during peacetime, if they fly sorties of N-LCA as opposed to twin engine jets like MIg-29K.



That would be a point for IAF, but can't be for IN, since a carrier air wing is highly limited wrt numbers and performance, that's why you add as many high quality fighters as possible. That's why a Mig 29K with more hardpoints and payload, would be a better choice than N-LCA with several operational limitations.


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## Srinivas

sancho said:


> There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it.




I am saying in the context of whole LCA project not N-LCA. If LCA is successful then there are countries whom India can sell these fighter jets.
Since we will have the tech derived from PAK-FA and Rafale LCA mark 2 will be a fighter jet to recon.


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it.
> 
> 
> 
> N-LCA was proposed to IN by ADA/DRDO not by HAL, HAL is just the manufacturer and responsible for production and testing, the developers are ADA/DRDO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry mate, but that makes no sense.
> 
> 1) You don't need a fully fledged carrier fighter program to learn how to navailise fighters, you ONLY need tech demonstrators
> 
> 2) Navalising LCA to N-LCA for STOBAR carriers is way simpler, than navalising a fighter for CATOBAR carriers, so if we go for catapults on IAC2, we hardly learned anything useful with N-LCA.
> 
> 3) Navalising a 4th gen design is simpler than a 5th generation one
> 
> 4) We could have learned this from Russia, as a return of beeing Mig 29Ks main operator, or as they suggested by developing the naval design for Pak Fa / FGFA (for example about folding wings, which we didn't learned anything yet)
> 
> 5) We don't learn now because it's an Indian product, but because we chose EADS (which is a questionable selection itself) as a consulting partner for the navalising
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a point for IAF, but can't be for IN, since a carrier air wing is highly limited wrt numbers and performance, that's why you add as many high quality fighters as possible. That's why a Mig 29K with more hardpoints and payload, would be a better choice than N-LCA with several operational limitations.


NLCA does not make any sense.

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## sancho

Srinivas said:


> I am saying in the context of whole LCA project not N-LCA. If LCA is successful then there are countries whom India can sell these fighter jets.



Beyond 2020 (for exports), with an US engine? Doubtful 



Srinivas said:


> Since we will have the tech derived from PAK-FA and Rafale LCA mark 2 will be a fighter jet to recon.



It has not techs from Pak Fa and any fighter could be used for recon, it just needs a recon pod.


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## Beerbal

indianrabbit said:


> NLCA does not make any sense.



How will India gain the experience of making Futuristic Naval fighter? Tell me few things

1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?
2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?
3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter??? 

One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.

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## 3Idiots

NLCA is necessary, precisely for the reasons mentioned by Beerbal.

Mig-29s are only a stop gap thing... till we take things indigenous.

NLCA is perfectly compatible with INS Vikramditrya; STOBAR carriers .. it will have a mix of Mig-29 and NLCA.

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## sancho

Beerbal said:


> 1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?
> 2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?



It seems IN wants a 3 or 4 aircraft carriers at max and by the time they will come, N-LCA and hopefully ski-jump take off is not important for us anymore. That's why N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter, because we need to learn different things for a 5th gen carrier fighter, that needs to take off via catapults.



Beerbal said:


> 3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter???



Of course, that's gaining experience is the core for the whole LCA program, but for operational reasons, LCA was only needed and useful in IAF, in higher numbers, next to highly capable fighters, supported by tankers and AWACS, in limited range roles.
But to gain experience in making a naval fighter, all we need is a tech demonstrator program and a foreign partner, so basically what we have now. It shows us how to strengthen the gear, what changes might be needed for the landing and we can test it at INS Hansa in simulated take offs and landings. All that is needed for this TD is the current N-LCA, based on the MK1 and not a fully fledged carrier fighter version, based on the MK2, with credible changes especially for the navy, which then delayed the whole LCA program again!



Beerbal said:


> One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.



Why would a carrier that can carry around 20 fighters be useless, when it looses 5 fighters? Of course it is better to havy ANY fighter then NO fighter, but you don't develop and produce N-LCAs only to have fighters in reserve, but order additional Mig 29Ks, that's what we already did with the follow order.


The best way for both operational and industrial reasons would have been:

1) ordering additional Mig 29Ks for both carriers, instead of N-LCAs 

2) insisting on more Indian participation in Mig 29K, be it through licence production of of parts, or the later integration of Indian radar, or engines (indigenous AESA, Kaveri K10) diverted from LCA program

3) hire Mikoyan as a partner for the navalising of LCA

4) opening a seperate (from IAFs LCAs) N-LCA Tech Demonstrator program, to gain experience in this field and set up own R&D and test capabilities in India


=> 1 and 2 would have made IN stronger, since they get higher numbers of the more capable plattform. But also can integrate core indigenous techs later, to make them more independent on Russia for upgrades or spare supply.
3 and 4 would have benefitted Indian industry, because the Russians had way more experience with navalising fighters for STOBAR carriers, than EADS had. They would have got anything needed to build up own capabilities and IF IN would want naval FGFA, this would have directly went into us navalising the fighter too. But most importantly this wouldn't had any further effect on the general LCA program!

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## S-DUCT

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2114 Test Flights successfully.(1-April-2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-359*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-72*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,*LSP8-1*)

From

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2109 Test Flights successfully.(25-Mar-2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-356*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,*LSP4-71*,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)


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## Hulk

Beerbal said:


> How will India gain the experience of making Futuristic Naval fighter? Tell me few things
> 
> 1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?



I can see only 3 of them.


> 2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?


Are we going to use NLCA, looking at timelines, it might not be the case.



> 3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter???


If NLCA takes resources (scientist) that delays LCA then very bad call. Getting LCA out ASAP should be top priority and once you have done with LCA than think about NLCA. Before you raise the second foot have the first foot in ground.



> One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.


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## DARKY

Tejas LSP-8 first flight photos
















Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas LSP-8 first flight photos

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## Beerbal

indianrabbit said:


> I can see only 3 of them.
> Are we going to use NLCA, looking at timelines, it might not be the case.
> If NLCA takes resources (scientist) that delays LCA then very bad call. Getting LCA out ASAP should be top priority and once you have done with LCA than think about NLCA. Before you raise the second foot have the first foot in ground.




Let it be 3, 3 carriers need at least 60 operational and 20-30 reserve birds. In war time 20 more birds so all together 120 Birds. The truth is 5th generation Carrier born fighter plane are 20-25 year ahead. Till that time 4.5 gen birds will be backbone of carrier fleet. 

Except USA and brits, I don't see any one putting 5th gen birds in next few decades. So yes NLCA has potential for future. 

Indian Navy is pragmatic, They know if they don't trash fleshy a$$ of HAL/DRDO they can't get proper result in future. IN is committed towards N-LCA, They will definitely buy 40 (a considerable number of N-LCA). Some time you need to learn fly before learning to walk.

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## Beerbal

sancho said:


> It seems IN wants a 3 or 4 aircraft carriers at max and by the time they will come, N-LCA and hopefully ski-jump take off is not important for us anymore. That's why N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter, because we need to learn different things for a 5th gen carrier fighter, that needs to take off via catapults.
> ...........................................




Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata?? 

your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here.. 

1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa... 
2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier 

"delay in LCA prgm"
3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.

" but order additional Mig 29Ks"

4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters... 

I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me??? 

and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"

4. Need some expert advice 
Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??

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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

Beerbal said:


> Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata??
> 
> your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here..
> 
> 1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa...
> 2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier
> 
> "delay in LCA prgm"
> 3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.
> 
> " but order additional Mig 29Ks"
> 
> 4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters...
> 
> I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me???
> 
> and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"
> 
> 4. Need some expert advice
> Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??



Count me on your side brother, @sancho, I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons, KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.

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## Srinivas

Some more pics of LSP 8 first flight

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## Anony

Beerbal said:


> Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata??
> 
> your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here..
> 
> 1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa...
> 2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier
> 
> "delay in LCA prgm"
> 3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.
> 
> " but order additional Mig 29Ks"
> 
> 4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters...
> 
> I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me???
> 
> and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"
> 
> 4. Need some expert advice
> Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??



@Beerbal. Dude it's not about to be with you or not. It's about strategic and defence need. I am not saying your point is baseless but you probably have overlooked certain factors. Firstly India is going to have 3 AC in it's arsenal and not more. The IAC-1 will be ready by 2018 and IAC-2 by 2027. And it's very much known that post 2025 will be the era of 5th gen fighter. Thus IAC-2 in all probability will fly 5th gen fighter. INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 will carry 18 odd fighters each.With these we need additional 18 in reserve and approximately the same no. during war. Thus the total requirement of IN is 75 odd 4.5 gen fighters. 

So others member are stating it's better to order 30-40 more Mig 29k than invest in a complete new machine which in every respect will not be as capable as Mig-29k are. As for experience, India could have negotiated for joint production. Being the largest operator of Mig-29k, India would have been well placed for the negotiation to happen.

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## Beerbal

Anony said:


> @Beerbal. Dude it's not about to be with you or not. It's about strategic and defence need. I am not saying your point is baseless but you probably have overlooked certain factors. Firstly India is going to have 3 AC in it's arsenal and not more. The IAC-1 will be ready by 2018 and IAC-2 by 2027. And it's very much known that post 2025 will be the era of 5th gen fighter. Thus IAC-2 in all probability will fly 5th gen fighter. INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 will carry 18 odd fighters each.With these we need additional 18 in reserve and approximately the same no. during war. Thus the total requirement of IN is 75 odd 4.5 gen fighters.
> 
> So others member are stating it's better to order 30-40 more Mig 29k than invest in a complete new machine which in every respect will not be as capable as Mig-29k are. As for experience, India could have negotiated for joint production. Being the largest operator of Mig-29k, India would have been well placed for the negotiation to happen.




Bro I was just pulling leg, Sancho is one of the best member here. He has gain respect. But when it comes to LCA, he get itchy..   I remember long ago (when he was not Think tank) some one honoured/Crowned him "Greatest troll of LCA". Having said that I will reiterate that I have lot of respect for him. 



If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing. N-LCA will serve base to N-AMCA. Navy don't want F35 (cost restriction) and N-FGFA (I don't think N-FGFA will be made), NAVY want N-AMCA. 


Even if N-AMCA will be CATONBAR, N-LCA will give awesome experience. So the question arise now (Sancho suggested it many time), why not restrict N-LCA as demo project?? My view is, No, No demo project, let it be complete project, unless NAVY use it for 4-5 years they can't give feedback to N-AMCA team. 

N-LCA is nececary for Indian NAVY, IN knows it, its only few member not agree with...


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## sancho

tharkibuddha said:


> I read your every post and every time



*Then I highly suggest to read the posts correctly, because you clearly didn't! *

I am all for LCA, that's why I am fully supporting it for the IAF, where it would be really useful for us, just like I would fully support AMCA for IN, why I want ADA/DRDO to work more effectively on LCA and don't let them distract from AMCA project now and why I want IAF to induct it as soon as possible.
*BUT *I don't blind myself by pride reasons, that's why I don't support useless developments like N-LCA, criticise ADA/DRDO for the LCA project management and the radar/engine development disasters and will continue to do so!




tharkibuddha said:


> we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity.



Exactly, that's why I want to use the money more effectively! There is no operational need for N-LCA, since we get all we need by the Migs and the N-LCA tech demonstrator. So why are we wasting money on a (as IN already admitted) modest single engine, light class, 4th gen STOBAR fighter, instead investing in a development of a NG carrier fighter and to get catapults? 
We have several 4th gen carrier fighters , so we don't need another one only because it's Indian, but if it would offer operational advantages in war times. That isn't the case with N-LCA, but that would be the case with a naval AMCA!!!



tharkibuddha said:


> we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ??



Who said we shouldn't? But again, do it with a little bit of logical sense and not to show off like DRDO does it and for pride reasons. That's why I said that we need the N-LCA tech demonstrator, to gain experiense in "general" navalising, to set up test facilities and industries, but not N-LCA carrier fighters in numbers, with all the changes that caused further delays in LCA MK2 as well.
That's why I said, develop LCA MK2 for IAF, but if possible use the same indigenous techs and weapons for Mig 29K too!


Take one step at the time, make it simple and use foreign partners, THAT'S how we get stronger and less dependent in the long run. Not by claiming we can do this and that, just as good as others can, to get a reality check later and embarrass ourselfs in front of the world.

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## sancho

Beerbal said:


> If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing.



Of course:



> *LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours*
> 
> It may not be what we want, but it is our own aircraft," says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy...
> 
> ...I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. *LCA Navy will remain a modest platform *with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. *While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms*. Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets."



Livefist: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA


Primarily they wanted to support the industry to gain experience in the naval aviation field, which then could benefit IN in future fighter projects and to be less dependent from foreign supplies, but not because N-LCA would be a good carrier fighter!

That's the same that I want as well, but in a simpler and more rational way, without mixing: 

1) LCA MK1 and MK2 for IAF
2) N-LCA MK1 TD for the industry
3) LCA MK2 techs and weapons (if mature and good enough) to replace Russian parts on Mig 29K for IN
4) FGFA and AURA for IAF
5) AMCA for IN


I know that many won't agree for the reasons I stated, but I prefer a Mig 29K with Indian AESA, Astra missile, Sudarshan LGB, Helina ATGM, Brahmos light and possibly even Kaveri K10 engines, *ANY DAY* over N-LCA, simply because it combines capability with indigenous developments and not only pride to have an indigenous carrier fighter. *The earlier will protect India, the latter wont!*

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## 3Idiots

tharkibuddha said:


> Count me on your side brother, @sancho, *I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons,* KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.



Dude, I get exactly the same feelings whenever I read his posts. :shrug:


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## Sergi

tharkibuddha said:


> Count me on your side brother, @sancho, I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons, KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.



You should have read his posts before commenting something like this ^^^

Don't generalise the point. He is against the N-LCA and pushing N-AMCA. So is IN. do you want to call them agents of weapon dealers too ???

Mig-29K will be better than N-LCA any day. Mig-29K production line can't remain open without Indian order. So there is a chance that we can buy the entire line and bring it to India and mod the plane with our weapons ,radar and engine. That's will be effective application of our development. 

100% wrong on LCA. He is biggest support of LCA as a platform. He is just the biggest criticiser of the Managing agencies DRDO/ADA/HAL. Show one post where he is against the development of LCA


One of our services chief clearly said our PSUs should make what services want and NOT what they can make. Even then we see the model of a trainer which IAF clearly don't want

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## Anony

Beerbal said:


> If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing. N-LCA will serve base to N-AMCA. Navy don't want F35 (cost restriction) and N-FGFA (I don't think N-FGFA will be made), NAVY want N-AMCA.
> 
> 
> Even if N-AMCA will be CATONBAR, N-LCA will give awesome experience. So the question arise now (Sancho suggested it many time), why not restrict N-LCA as demo project?? My view is, No, No demo project, let it be complete project, unless NAVY use it for 4-5 years they can't give feedback to N-AMCA team.
> 
> N-LCA is nececary for Indian NAVY, IN knows it, its only few member not agree with...



Agreed. Most of it. Though I am not a supporter of N-LCA because of limited role it can play. I too believe N-FGFA will not be a realty and Navy will go for N-AMCA. I even agree that many things can be learned because of this project even if IAC-2 will be of CATOBAR type. But I don't support N-LCA because of other reason mentioned below:-

*1.* It will never able to carry Brahmos under its wings. Atleast Mig 29k with little modification can. That means it can't achieve a kill on major warships from distance. 

*2.*It's range is limited. We can't have aerial tanker for it in the sea.

*3.* No doubt it will be a very potent aircraft in its category in the world but its design is more for a point interception and IN might not need any aircraft for this role in mid sea. (Pakistan will not provide such threat and PLAAF AC will not come till IOR and even if it does, we must understand Mig 29k on carrier deck will be a better choice.)


@sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.


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## Sergi

Anony said:


> Agreed. Most of it. Though I am not a supporter of N-LCA because of limited role it can play. I too believe N-FGFA will not be a realty and Navy will go for N-AMCA. I even agree that many things can be learned because of this project even if IAC-2 will be of CATOBAR type. But I don't support N-LCA because of other reason mentioned below:-
> 
> *1.* It will never able to carry Brahmos under its wings. Atleast Mig 29k with little modification can. That means it can't achieve a kill on major warships from distance.
> 
> *2.*It's range is limited. We can't have aerial tanker for it in the sea.
> 
> *3.* No doubt it will be a very potent aircraft in its category in the world but its design is more for a point interception and IN might not need any aircraft for this role in mid sea. (Pakistan will not provide such threat and PLAAF AC will not come till IOR and even if it does, we must understand Mig 29k on carrier deck will be a better choice.)
> 
> 
> @sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.



1. There are other anti ship missiles that N-LCA can carry so that's not the point 

2. True. Range is limted. So have to carry external fuel tanks. So less weapons. There are refuelers and buddy refuelers for Navy too

3. LCA was never designed to a potent platform. It was aimed to achieve low cost low end plane 

4. N-AMCA will be a great power projection but we don't need that for Pakistan with whom we share land and see border.

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## Anony

Sergi said:


> 1. There are other anti ship missiles that N-LCA can carry so that's not the point



I have very cleraly mention in my post "can't achieve a kill from distance" which means from 300km away. I know that India has other anti-ship missiles which N-LCA can carry. But you must understand that, only Brahmos has the potential to achieve a complete kill with one hit as it's inertia will be close to 16-32 times more than what will be achieved by other anti-ship missiles. Thus Brahmos can destroy the hull of the ship in one hit and also that it can target warships from that distance where there is no threat to the aircraft.



Sergi said:


> 3. LCA was never designed to a potent platform. It was aimed to achieve low cost low end plane


 
Again I mentioned potent in its class. There is no naval light weight fighter used by any navy which is of its weight class and still is significantly superior than N-LCA. Potent compared to light weight alternative that our adversaries have.



Sergi said:


> 4. N-AMCA will be a great power projection but we don't need that for Pakistan with whom we share land and see border.



We need both AMCA & N-AMCA. It's for the same reason that we share both land and sea.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> You should have read his posts before commenting something like this ^^^
> 
> Don't generalise the point. He is against the N-LCA and pushing N-AMCA...
> 
> ...He is just the biggest criticiser of the Managing agencies DRDO/ADA/HAL.



That is the problem, many of our fellow countrymen prefer to jump around and celebrate any first flight of an LCA prototype, while completely ignoring the problems the delays causes to our forces, what kind of mismanagement and failures our industry has caused.
There is something called constructive criticism, to show weakpoints, better and more effective ways and more importantly to learn and improve, so these mistakes won't be done again. But sadly too many don't know about this and only generalise things to either one or the other side. 



Anony said:


> @sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.



Even LCA is good enough against Pakistan and IAF will also have Rafale and MKI for the next 30 years. As I explained ofter, there is no fighter that would need to be replaced by AMCA, nor does it add any capability that IAF wouldn't have by the 4 fighters it already gets + Rustom H and AURA drones. 
IN on the other side has no NG aircrafts on offer other than the F35 (that they and we all don't want), so the only logical choice would be either N-FGFA or N-AMCA. By the fact that these would have to face China and PLAN on IAC 2, the importance should be even more obvious and why ADA/DRDO are doing a major mistake again, to focus on IAF now.

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## 3Idiots

^^ more like the usual sancho.


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## Echo_419

any one knows when the damn thing will get IOC & FOC


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## Sergi

@sancho : what will be the better option for IN ??? FGFA or AMCA ??? Assuming everything promised as of now comes true.


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## jha

NLCA has absolutely no future in IN . LCA-II will be inducted but not in too big numbers imho. Ground reality is that LCA-II will be coming 5 years too late.


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## Sergi

Anony said:


> I have very cleraly mention in my post "can't achieve a kill from distance" which means from 300km away. I know that India has other anti-ship missiles which N-LCA can carry. But you must understand that, only Brahmos has the potential to achieve a complete kill with one hit as it's inertia will be close to 16-32 times more than what will be achieved by other anti-ship missiles. Thus Brahmos can destroy the hull of the ship in one hit and also that it can target warships from that distance where there is no threat to the aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I mentioned potent in its class. There is no naval light weight fighter used by any navy which is of its weight class and still is significantly superior than N-LCA. Potent compared to light weight alternative that our adversaries have.
> 
> 
> 
> We need both AMCA & N-AMCA. It's for the same reason that we share both land and sea.


1. Any missile that we buy form outside is bound to come up with the cap below 300km. Brahmos is no doubt powerful but its not the only missile that can do that. Wiki has some good articles for anti ship missiles. Go through them. Nice read. 

2. For you information NP-1 can't land or take off from any carrier. May be NP-4 which is supposed to be based in MK-2. It's still 4/5 years in future. 
And thre is a reason why other Navies don't have fighter in that category 

3. That's your opinion. I can't argue with that. But Naval air wing is to project power where AF can't reach.



jha said:


> NLCA has absolutely no future in IN . LCA-II will be inducted but not in too big numbers imho. Ground reality is that LCA-II will be coming 5 years too late.



We have ordered 100 GE414 with a follow on clause of 100 more. So we will have minimum of 100 Mark-2


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## ziaulislam

just to add 100 engines doesnt mean 100 fighters..u need spare engines too...
but yes most probably there will be 100 fighters for LCA

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## Anony

Sergi said:


> 1. Any missile that we buy form outside is bound to come up with the cap below 300km. Brahmos is no doubt powerful but its not the only missile that can do that. Wiki has some good articles for anti ship missiles. Go through them. Nice read.
> 
> 2. For you information NP-1 can't land or take off from any carrier. May be NP-4 which is supposed to be based in MK-2. It's still 4/5 years in future.
> And thre is a reason why other Navies don't have fighter in that category
> 
> 3. That's your opinion. I can't argue with that. But Naval air wing is to project power where AF can't reach.



If you can't comprehend the post, don't just give ****.Total off topic reply with complete nonsense. No need to reply, I am presuming that discussion on this conversation ends here.


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## Sergi

Anony said:


> If you can't comprehend the post, don't just give ****.Total off topic reply with complete nonsense. No need to reply, I am presuming that discussion on this conversation ends here.



What off topic genius ??? Watch your mouth ... You can get the same reply 
It's not s@it its your understanding. And things make sense if you know what they mean. 

I am not interested in discussion with such arrogant minded person either. 
*Keep your presumption with you and live in wonderland* . Reality might scare you. Good luck  
don't even bother to reply


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## Sergi

ziaulislam said:


> just to add 100 engines doesnt mean 100 fighters..u need spare engines too...
> but yes most probably there will be 100 fighters for LCA



Genius read again 
100 ordered with a follow on clause of 100 more. That makes it to total 200 engines ( India alway use follow on clause). Means 100 planes. Got it ???

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> What off topic genius ???




Chill guys, lets get back to topic again!



Sergi said:


> Genius read again
> 100 ordered with a follow on clause of 100 more. That makes it to total 200 engines ( India alway use follow on clause). Means 100 planes. Got it ???



He is not wrong, the 200 engines, IF we go for them (which is unlikely if we develop the Kaveri K10), includes later replacements. The 100 though, are the first real order and ziaulislam is right that this doesn't automatically translate into 100 fighters, because some of the engines will be used for MK2 or N-LCA MK2 prototypes as well. 
Earlier reports said, that IAF would go for 83 x LCA MK2s, which could hint on 3 x prototypes and 80 x fighters (=> 4 x squads + the 2 x MK1 squads), while the rest could be used for the early IN orders and version, or used as spare engines. Depending on N-LCA orders, or on Kaveri K10s development timeline, there might be follow orders, but not sure how many.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Chill guys, lets get back to topic again!
> 
> 
> 
> He is not wrong, the 200 engines, IF we go for them (which is unlikely if we develop the Kaveri K10), includes later replacements. The 100 though, are the first real order and ziaulislam is right that this doesn't automatically translate into 100 fighters, because some of the engines will be used for MK2 or N-LCA MK2 prototypes as well.
> Earlier reports said, that IAF would go for 83 x LCA MK2s, which could hint on 3 x prototypes and 80 x fighters (=> 4 x squads + the 2 x MK1 squads), while the rest could be used for the early IN orders and version, or used as spare engines. Depending on N-LCA orders, or on Kaveri K10s development timeline, there might be follow orders, but not sure how many.



I am NOT saying he is wrong. Was just pointing to spare engines 

Well Sancho K10 is nowhere in sight. The JV we all hoped for isn't even in talks. Last we hear that We are searching for new partner. So evenif that was to pressurise French , JV is still a open deal. 

AFAIK the news in past said JV will took 5/6 years to bring out the first proto which was a sharp reduction in time from earlier 8/10 years. 

So we surely will be going for follow on order unless you want to say IAF won't go for a big order


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## Beerbal

Let me summarize the facts


1. All member agree that N-AMCA is what Navy targeting.
2. All of us agree that N-LCA is potent platform in its category (Class).


Differences 
1. Some of us want N-LCA project just as TD (Tech demonstrator), while some of us want it to be operational.
2. There are very few of us believe that "NLCA has absolutely no future in IN ."

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> So we surely will be going for follow on order unless you want to say IAF won't go for a big order



I have some doubts on that, because the delays will increase the likelihood that we simply go for additional Rafales, instead of additional MK2s, or the speculated MK3s. You also have to see that there are only 7 x squads of Mig 21 Bis and M/MF to replace, while the current LCA orders already include 6 x squads, so there is not much to replace anyway.
The only follow orders I see, would be for N-LCA MK2s of course, but that again depends on the delays of the development. LCA MK2 is expected only by 2018 now and N-LCA as a version of it might even come later. By that time, INS Vikramaditya and even IAC 1 will be operational with Mig 29Ks, so hardly any use for N-LCA anyway, which again is a fact that many N-LCA supporters forget.

Wrt K10, yes there is no development for it at the moment, but if it goes as shown above, the next need for a big engine order for LCA comes only during the MLUs of MK1 and later MK2. According to several officials, Kaveri engine is currently de-linked from LCA, but still aims on replacing the US engines in future.
Also the current MK2 orders will be delivered only beyond 2020, a time where K10 should be available at least developed for AMCA, so any follow orders of LCA MK2 or MK3, then could use K10 instead of the GE414. 

All on all, I don't see us going for more than 40 x follow orders of GE414, if at all.



Beerbal said:


> Let me summarize the facts
> 
> 
> 2. All of us agree that N-LCA is potent platform in its category (Class).



Not really, a carrier fighter that can't carry a useful strike load, with a credible self defence capability can hardly be described as potent. Add the limited range and endurance, or the low chances in A2A against J15 for example makes it hardly useful.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> I have some doubts on that, because the delays will increase the likelihood that we simply go for additional Rafales, instead of additional MK2s, or the speculated MK3s. You also have to see that there are only 7 x squads of Mig 21 Bis and M/MF to replace, while the current LCA orders already include 6 x squads, so there is not much to replace anyway.


- we will surely be going for additional MMRCA clause. No doubt in that too.
- MK-3 is just imagination and pitching. Nothing more
- yes MK-2 will replace 7 Squds no doubt. But you are forgetting additional sanctioned Squd strength. 
- As I mentioned earlier in this thread itself , if a retired IAF high ranker is to be believed IF LCA MK-2 delivered what it promised then IAF will go for 200+ order. So I believe atleast 10 Squd of MK-2s if not more


sancho said:


> The only follow orders I see, would be for N-LCA MK2s of course, but that again depends on the delays of the development. LCA MK2 is expected only by 2018 now and N-LCA as a version of it might even come later. By that time, INS Vikramaditya and even IAC 1 will be operational with Mig 29Ks, so hardly any use for N-LCA anyway, which again is a fact that many N-LCA supporters forget.


- if costal role is transferred to IN. That was in talks but nothing comes out yet. 
- I really STOPED beliving dead lines 
- but you are forgetting one thing LCA will be more than a operational need. IAF will and have to support it. 


sancho said:


> Wrt K10, yes there is no development for it at the moment, but if it goes as shown above, the next need for a big engine order for LCA comes only during the MLUs of MK1 and later MK2. According to several officials, Kaveri engine is currently de-linked from LCA, but still aims on replacing the US engines in future.
> Also the current MK2 orders will be delivered only beyond 2020, a time where K10 should be available at least developed for AMCA, so any follow orders of LCA MK2 or MK3, then could use K10 instead of the GE414.
> 
> 
> All on all, I don't see us going for more than 40 x follow orders of GE414, if at all.


Sounds correct. But still I doubt the JV. It's been 4/5 years. Nothing. 
I doubt we would go for K-10 in AMCA when we would have a NG engine ( hope ) in FGFA


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> But you are forgetting additional sanctioned Squd strength.



I didn't, but the point is, we will have Rafale and FGFA in production at the same time that LCA MK2 is in production and the longer LCA takes, the less useful it will be in operational terms. So it is more likely that IAF will add to squad strenght with Rafale or FGFAs and not with additional LCAs.



Sergi said:


> - but you are forgetting one thing LCA will be more than a operational need. IAF will and have to support it.



And they did for several years now, just like they show commitment with the order of 120 fighters, but at the end LCA remains to be the low end fighter only and that makes it less important in operational terms. So if IAF thinks that their operational needs makes it important to add more capable fighters, they obviously won't go for additional LCAs right?




Sergi said:


> I doubt we would go for K-10 in AMCA when we would have a NG engine ( hope ) in FGFA



We have to, because K10 is a light class engine, while the FGFA will use heavy class engines, so unless we suddenly go for a single engine AMCA, we won't use the FGFA engine.


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## Beerbal

sancho said:


> Not really, a carrier fighter that can't carry a useful strike load, with a credible self defence capability can hardly be described as potent. Add the limited range and endurance, or the low chances in A2A against J15 for example makes it hardly useful.




What is the payload Tejas N-LCA can carry and what is the weight Harrier carries, can you give comparative view?? If N-LCA carry much lesser than BAE Harrier, then I will agree with you...

List of Carrier based fighters In service

Boeing EA-18G Growler
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
British Aerospace Sea Harrier
Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard
Dassault Rafale M
Grumman C-2 Greyhound
Hawker Siddeley AV-8S Harrier
McDonnell Douglas A-4KU Skyhawk (AF-1)
McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet
McDonnell Douglas T-45 Goshawk
Mikoyan MiG-29K
Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye
Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler
Sukhoi Su-25UTG/UBP
Sukhoi Su-33


Look into the list and compare LCA with it provided other fighter must be as light as LCA. Comparing 30ton F18 with 6.7 ton LCA will not be justified...


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> I didn't, but the point is, we will have Rafale and FGFA in production at the same time that LCA MK2 is in production and the longer LCA takes, the less useful it will be in operational terms. So it is more likely that IAF will add to squad strenght with Rafale or FGFAs and not with additional LCAs.
> 
> 
> 
> And they did for several years now, just like they show commitment with the order of 120 fighters, but at the end LCA remains to be the low end fighter only and that makes it less important in operational terms. So if IAF thinks that their operational needs makes it important to add more capable fighters, they obviously won't go for additional LCAs right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have to, because K10 is a light class engine, while the FGFA will use heavy class engines, so unless we suddenly go for a single engine AMCA, we won't use the FGFA engine.



1. Agreed on everything

2. I think they have to. MOD isn't barring them from other capable options but they along with DRDO/HAL will surely be pushing for a Major order. Point there would be brandish the platform for potential export if any. Plus "we build it" is always going to be there. 

3. You are right. So are we looking at K10 JV as a NG engine ???


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## Beerbal

Something went wrong in calculation...


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## Beerbal

Sergi said:


> @sancho : what will be the better option for IN ??? FGFA or AMCA ??? Assuming everything promised as of now comes true.




It always better to have N-FGFA for IN (Indian Navy), But I can't see it feasible coz of these issues
1. I can't see FGFA having Catapult launch capability.
2. It's Massive size will restrict number of plane on Carriers.
3. I can't see russia will be interested in making CATOBAR configuration for FGFA/PAK-FA.
4. The cost factor, 5 Biliion (rough guess) Carrier will have 6 billion aircraft, funny, isn't it? 
5. IN knows , true blue water navy capability can't be achieved without in-house production. They are entertaining N-LCA project so that N-AMCA project will take lesser time. (As most of Naval fighter feature will be tested on N-LCA (except CATOBAR Launch))

So I believe that N-AMCA will be a reality, while N-FGFA "may" not. Other members are free to express there view..


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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

Sergi said:


> You should have read his posts before commenting something like this ^^^
> 
> Don't generalise the point. He is against the N-LCA and pushing N-AMCA. So is IN. do you want to call them agents of weapon dealers too ???
> 
> Mig-29K will be better than N-LCA any day. Mig-29K production line can't remain open without Indian order. So there is a chance that we can buy the entire line and bring it to India and mod the plane with our weapons ,radar and engine. That's will be effective application of our development.
> 
> 100% wrong on LCA. He is biggest support of LCA as a platform. He is just the biggest criticiser of the Managing agencies DRDO/ADA/HAL. Show one post where he is against the development of LCA
> 
> 
> One of our services chief clearly said our PSUs should make what services want and NOT what they can make. Even then we see the model of a trainer which IAF clearly don't want



Oh ! so you guys are hunting in packs ??? 

Yes he never said directly that lca should not be done and he can not dare to say like that if he want to sound himself credible enough but all his polished language and clever logic leads to closure of indigenous efforts, and so does yours.but people today are more sane than you think and they can make out where are you trying to lead them.

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## Sergi

tharkibuddha said:


> Oh ! so you guys are hunting in packs ???
> 
> Yes he never said directly that lca should not be done and he can not dare to say like that if he want to sound himself credible enough but all his polished language and clever logic leads to closure of indigenous efforts, and so does yours.but people today are more sane than you think and they can make out where are you trying to lead them.



My bad I tried to reply you

*DON'T QUOTE ME FOR YOUR COMPREHENSION PROBLEMS*. 
You are free to assume what you want. Just don't quote me and over look the post in which I quote you. 

Rather spare me entirely and ignore me.


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## sancho

Beerbal said:


> What is the payload Tejas N-LCA can carry and what is the weight Harrier carries, can you give comparative view?? If N-LCA carry much lesser than BAE Harrier, then I will agree with you...



You don't have to agree with me, just think it through logically! 
The Harrier doesn't matter, because it isn't operated from STOBAR carriers like the Mig and N-LCA, which alone makes a big difference. All that matters is, what N-LCA would provide IN on operational terms, that the Mig can't or that makes it useful against potential enemy fighters or ground targets. 
So the right comparision would be N-LCA vs Mig 29K, or N-LCA vs J15, or N-LCA vs Pakistani costal defences...
And when you compare these things, you hardly will find operational reasons for the N-LCA, because the others can carry more weapons, to longer ranges, have longer range radars and a better variety of weapons for different roles.
All the N-LCA would be useful is, escort and anti ship roles, while the main air defence, deep or heavy strikes, SEAD, or even Anti ship with more than a missile would have to be done by Mig 29K.





Sergi said:


> So are we looking at K10 JV as a NG engine ???



Yes, infact DRDO itself would have prefered a normal Kaveri - Snecma engine with tech infusion of the M88Eco TD, but IAF rejected and insisted on own further developments, or on a real joint development to achieve the goals and not only taking foreign techs. Now it seems like they completely aim on AMCA with the engine, which is why the thrust requirements are constantly increasing, with any new AMCA concept of ADA/DRDO.

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2115 Test Flights Successfully. (3-Apr-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-360,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2117 Test Flights Successfully. (4-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-361*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-154*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)


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## sancho

@ Beerbal

In addition to what I said earlier, here some basic differences that shows the operational differences between both fighters.

To start with, N-LCA has a fixed wing design with a wingspan of 8.2m, while the Mig 29K can fold it's wings from a span of 12m down to 7.8m. That means each Mig needs a half meter less space on the deck, than an N-LCA.


Also consider an Indo-Pak war, IN must strike 2 targets, since N-LCA will have the same 7 x hardpoints as the IAF LCA, it can't carry any BVR missiles during strike roles and will require dedicated escort fighters for protection:








Similar go's for CAP roles, where both fighters will have to carry enough fuel to have sufficient endurance, especially since mid air refuelling is limited and where a single Mig carries as many BVR missiles like 2 x N-LCAs:







As you can see, you need 2 x N-LCAs to do the same missions that a single Mig 29K could do. Same would go for anti ship, SEAD roles, if N-LCA would get the same Kh35 and 31 missiles as the Mig, since N-LCA simply don't have enough hardpoints to carry fuel tanks, A2G weapons and BVR missiles at the same time.
Also important, the Mig can carry 4 x fuel tanks at the wings and a centerline buddy refuelling pod in tanker roles, N-LCA with such a pod would only carry 2, which means it's not useful for the tanker role either.

Bottomline is: 

IN can carry more Mig 29Ks on deck and needs less Mig 29Ks to fullfil missions than if they use N-LCAs. It is useful in a variety of missions, that the N-LCA can't do and 2 x N-LCAs will be costlier to procure than 1 x Mig 29K too.

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## Rehan khan 1

i think biggest problem with LCA is that they started it with not much experience of building a good a/c in 80s. so it was an ambitious project and they didnt do JV at that time. now india has much more experience of building a/c but they are stuck with work already done and cost of project. revision of project will double the cost and as a metter of prestige they cant abonden it. its a dilema, that they have to make LCA by any mean.


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## Srinivas

sancho said:


> In addition to what I said earlier, here some basic differences that shows the operational differences between both fighters.
> 
> To start with, N-LCA has a fixed wing design with a wingspan of 8.2m, while the Mig 29K can fold it's wings from a span of 12m down to 7.8m. That means each Mig needs a half meter less space on the deck, than an N-LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think, N-LCA in Naval configuration can be designed with folded wings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also consider an Indo-Pak war, IN must strike 2 targets, since N-LCA will have the same 7 x hardpoints as the IAF LCA, it can't carry any BVR missiles during strike roles and will require dedicated escort fighters for protection:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LCA with improvements can also fire BVR missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similar go's for CAP roles, where both fighters will have to carry enough fuel to have sufficient endurance, especially since mid air refuelling is limited and where a single Mig carries as many BVR missiles like 2 x N-LCAs:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes very true But N-LCA can be used as a point defense fighter for the Carrier.
Click to expand...


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## sancho

Srinivas said:


> I think, N-LCA in Naval configuration can be designed with folded wings.



Not sure if it is possible, but according to the official plans and models it won't:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130407/6qvs9nwp.jpg




Srinivas said:


> LCA with improvements can also fire BVR missiles.



LCA will of course be able to use BVR missiles, but in most roles it simply won't have enough hardpoints to carry them. That's why it will be left with IR missiles only (= basic self defence capability) similar to our Jaguars and why they need dedicated escorts. Mig 29Ks instead will be able to carry 2 x WVR + 2 x BVR missiles in any role and config.




Srinivas said:


> Yes very true But N-LCA can be used as a point defense fighter for the Carrier.


As I showed, it still would carry only 2 x BVR missiles, will have less radar range or speed, unlike the Mig, which makes it even in this role less useful as a carrier fighter. That is the issue, for IAF and operated in higher numbers from shore bases, with tanker and AWACS support, LCA will be very capable and one can create good air combat tactics for them. But in the limited space of a carrier, with very limited support, you need to use the best possible fighter, techs and weapons, to make carrier operations as effective as possible.
That's why I want LCA for IAF and AMCA for IN, to provide our forces not "just an" indigenous fighters, but indigenous fighters that suits best according to their needs!

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## Beerbal

sancho said:


> @ Beerbal
> 
> In addition to what I said earlier, here some basic differences that shows the operational differences between both fighters.
> 
> To start with, N-LCA has a fixed wing design with a wingspan of 8.2m, while the Mig 29K can fold it's wings from a span of 12m down to 7.8m. That means each Mig needs a half meter less space on the deck, than an N-LCA.
> 
> 
> Also consider an Indo-Pak war, IN must strike 2 targets, since N-LCA will have the same 7 x hardpoints as the IAF LCA, it can't carry any BVR missiles during strike roles and will require dedicated escort fighters for protection:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similar go's for CAP roles, where both fighters will have to carry enough fuel to have sufficient endurance, especially since mid air refuelling is limited and where a single Mig carries as many BVR missiles like 2 x N-LCAs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, you need 2 x N-LCAs to do the same missions that a single Mig 29K could do. Same would go for anti ship, SEAD roles, if N-LCA would get the same Kh35 and 31 missiles as the Mig, since N-LCA simply don't have enough hardpoints to carry fuel tanks, A2G weapons and BVR missiles at the same time.
> Also important, the Mig can carry 4 x fuel tanks at the wings and a centerline buddy refuelling pod in tanker roles, N-LCA with such a pod would only carry 2, which means it's not useful for the tanker role either.
> 
> Bottomline is:
> 
> IN can carry more Mig 29Ks on deck and needs less Mig 29Ks to fullfil missions than if they use N-LCAs. It is useful in a variety of missions, that the N-LCA can't do and 2 x N-LCAs will be costlier to procure than 1 x Mig 29K too.






This space is reserved for reply to Sancho. For right now I can only say your logic can be used against you 

"When 1 F15 can work better why 2 F16". 

Wait for my reply...


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## S-DUCT

http://www.hal-india.com/tender/ardc/NIT_1430_18-06-13.zip

Tender for development of hydraulic pump for LCA Tejas MK2.From the given documents they are looking for 10g stress capability.


> Acceleration
>  Operational g-level: 10 g in all 6 directions as per Sl. No. 16 a) of Annexure 1 of
> Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
>  Structural g-level: 1.5 times the g value as indicated above as per Sl. No. 16 b) of
> Annexure 1 of Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
> Qualification methodology : Actual Test


excellent find by Indranilroy@BR.


> 2. HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
> for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. *The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
> 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
> taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards*.

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## sudhir007

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/325270/indigenous-content-tejas-craft-go.html

While work on obtaining the final operational clearance for India&#8217;s light combat aircraft (LCA) &#8211;Tejas &#8211; is going on in full swing, agencies working on the project, parallelly, are vying to increase the indigenisation aspect of the aircraft.

Sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is the nodal agency for the project, said: &#8220;We have invited local vendors to take up the development of the line replacement units (LRU), commonly called &#8216;components&#8217; so as to completely avoid or, at least, reduce the dependency on imports.&#8221;

Tejas, which was supposed to have been flying on an indigenously developed engine, has had to go in for imported GE engines after the project Kaveri&#8212;India&#8217;s engine development programme&#8212;failed to meet specifications.

Barring the engine, which is the heart of the aircraft, there are about 358 components that go into the aircraft, including crucial components in important systems, like avionics, environmental control, electrical and flight control.

Out of the 358 components, 53 per cent, that is 190 components are indigenously manufactured, while the remaining 168 are being imported. Speaking to Deccan Herald, C Ranganayakulu, Scientist &#8220;G,&#8221; ADA, said: &#8220;Currently, we are using imported LRUs to operate the flights for test flights and other sorties. When Tejas is ready for induction, we want to have as many indigenous LRUs as possible on the aircraft.&#8221;

Self-reliance aim

The move is in line with the Centre&#8217;s ambitions of increasing indigenisation, especially in crucial technologies. &#8220;There is no substitute for self-reliance,&#8221; reiterated Defence Minister A K Antony at a function organised by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Ranganayakulu, who is the convener for development of LRUs at ADA, explained that the agency was mulling to perform what they term &#8220;Drop-in Replacement. We will continue to use imported components but are hoping that indigenous products will eventually replace the imported items. We will stop the imports as soon as we have indigenous products meeting the exact specifications.&#8221; Now, LRUs are imported from Europe, Israel, the UK, Germany, France and other countries as different nations have different specialisations. The engine is imported from the US. The Limited Series Production-8 (LSP-8) of Tejas, the last in the LSP series, successfully completed its maiden flight on Sunday.

Sources said the Tejas, which is going through the initial operational clearance-2 (IOC-2), will be ready to get the final clearance (FOC) by 2014. The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has been waiting to induct the aircraft, is planning to raise the first squadron in Sulur, Tamil Nadu, and has already placed orders for 40 aircraft.

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## IND151

sudhir007 said:


> Indigenous content of Tejas craft to go up
> 
> *While work on obtaining the final operational clearance for India&#8217;s light combat aircraft (LCA) &#8211;Tejas &#8211; is going on in full swing, agencies working on the project, parallelly, are vying to increase the indigenisation aspect of the aircraft.*
> 
> *Sources* in the *Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)*, which is the nodal agency for the project, said:* &#8220;We have invited local vendors to take up the development of the line replacement units (LRU), commonly called &#8216;components&#8217; so as to completely avoid or, at least, reduce the dependency on imports.&#8221;*
> 
> Tejas, which was supposed to have been flying on an indigenously developed engine, has had to go in for imported GE engines after the project Kaveri&#8212;India&#8217;s engine development programme&#8212;failed to meet specifications.
> *
> Barring the engine, which is the heart of the aircraft, there are about 358 components that go into the aircraft, *including crucial components in important systems, like avionics, environmental control, electrical and flight control.
> 
> Out of the* 358 *components,* 53 per cent*, that is *190 components are indigenously manufactured*, while the remaining* 168* are being imported. Speaking to Deccan Herald, C Ranganayakulu, Scientist &#8220;G,&#8221; ADA, said:* &#8220;Currently, we are using imported LRUs to operate the flights for test flights and other sorties. When Tejas is ready for induction, we want to have as many indigenous LRUs as possible on the aircraft.&#8221;*
> 
> *Self-reliance aim*
> 
> The move is in line with the Centre&#8217;s ambitions of increasing indigenisation, especially in crucial technologies. &#8220;There is no substitute for self-reliance,&#8221; reiterated Defence Minister A K Antony at a function organised by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> Ranganayakulu, who is the convener for development of LRUs at ADA, explained that the agency was mulling to perform what they term &#8220;Drop-in Replacement. We will continue to use imported components but are hoping that indigenous products will eventually replace the imported items. We will stop the imports as soon as we have indigenous products meeting the exact specifications.&#8221; Now, LRUs are imported from Europe, Israel, the UK, Germany, France and other countries as different nations have different specialisations. The engine is imported from the US. The Limited Series Production-8 (LSP-8) of Tejas, the last in the LSP series, successfully completed its maiden flight on Sunday.
> 
> Sources said the *Tejas*, which is going through the initial operational clearance-2 (IOC-2), will be ready to get the final clearance (FOC) by 2014. The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has been waiting to induct the aircraft, is planning to raise the first squadron in Sulur, Tamil Nadu, and has already placed orders for 40 aircraft.



Thanks for info


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## suren

Someone please tell me difference between MK1 and MK2, I'm confused
Since MK1 will also be using GE F414 engine why everywhere its mentioned air frame of MK2 is increased to occupy F414 engine?
MK1 is also using F414 engine so why its air frame length not increased? and what are other notable differ


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## selvan33

suren said:


> Someone please tell me difference between MK1 and MK2, I'm confused
> Since MK1 will also be using GE F414 engine why everywhere its mentioned air frame of MK2 is increased to occupy F414 engine?
> MK1 is also using F414 engine so why its air frame length not increased? and what are other notable differ



Actually mk1 is not using f414. its using f404. that's the main difference between those two. and there is no increase in airframe in mk1 but mk2 wingspan slightly increased and its airintake and frontal nose also increased. and other difference are.,
mk1 payload 4tonne and mk2 will be 5+tonnes. mk1 uses MMR and mk2 will use AESA. internal fuel capacity will be increased. hardpoints may be 9 from current8. and others include high tech digital cockpits,mission computers,IRST,EW suitesetc., you can see all these changes in mk2.


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## Sergi

suren said:


> Someone please tell me difference between MK1 and MK2, I'm confused
> Since MK1 will also be using GE F414 engine why everywhere its mentioned air frame of MK2 is increased to occupy F414 engine?
> MK1 is also using F414 engine so why its air frame length not increased? and what are other notable differ



MK-1 is using GE404 NOT GE414
MK-2 is in Prototype building stage ( Hoping ). So not much reliable information as of now. 

MK-1 is having lower trust to weight ratio that's why MK-2 will have more powerful engine. 
And hopefully other drag related issues will be solved. 

MK-2 is supposed to come with AESA radar and may be more powerful avionics. 

More correctly we have to wait till the first flight of the prototype in next few years to tell the diffrence. Right now different engine is only sure things we know


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## suren

selvan33 said:


> Actually mk1 is not using f414. its using f404. that's the main difference between those two. and there is no increase in airframe in mk1 but mk2 wingspan slightly increased and its airintake and frontal nose also increased. and other difference are.,
> mk1 payload 4tonne and mk2 will be 5+tonnes. mk1 uses MMR and mk2 will use AESA. internal fuel capacity will be increased. hardpoints may be 9 from current8. and others include high tech digital cockpits,mission computers,IRST,EW suitesetc., you can see all these changes in mk2.



When MK2 prototype will be ready?


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## S-DUCT

suren said:


> When MK2 prototype will be ready?


MK2 prototype will be built during 13-14,I'm not sure about 1st flight though.


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## SR-91

S-DUCT said:


> MK2 prototype will be built during 13-14,I'm not sure about 1st flight though.



1st flight will commence in 2015/2016 and induction around 2018,Same time as Rafeal's induction.


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## S-DUCT

SR-91 said:


> 1st flight will commence in 2015/2016 and induction around 2018,Same time as Rafeal's induction.


From http://www.hal-india.com/tender/ardc/NIT_1430_18-06-13.zip


> . HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
> for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
> 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
> taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


MK2 build began on december last year,so its quite probable that 1st flight will take place on 1st quarter of 2014.

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## SR-91

I hope so buddy but slow bureaucracy will push it further

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## S-DUCT

http://hal-india.com/HAL-CONNECT/HAL-CONNECT-ISSUE-65.pdf
From above.
1)FOC will be given before December 2014.
2)HAL is targetting around 16 LCA's per year during its peak production rate.

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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> http://hal-india.com/HAL-CONNECT/HAL-CONNECT-ISSUE-65.pdf
> From above.
> 1)FOC will be given before December 2014.
> 2)HAL is targetting around 16 LCA's per year during its peak production rate.




Very interesting points:

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## selvan33

suren said:


> When MK2 prototype will be ready?



in the end of 2014 or early 2015.


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## suren

selvan33 said:


> in the end of 2014 or early 2015.



Is the production of MK1 has begun? 
when it will be inducted into IAF?


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## selvan33

suren said:


> Is the production of MK1 has begun?
> when it will be inducted into IAF?



just now HAL has given its LSP8 to IAF. after extensive trials with LSP8, our IAF will give its nod to go for production series. most probably this year end you can see your production variant 1. first squadron will be inducted in 2015 with 20 mk1 aircraft.


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## rockstarIN

selvan33 said:


> just now HAL has given its LSP8 to IAF. after extensive trials with LSP8, our IAF will give its nod to go for production series. most probably this year end you can see your production variant 1. first squadron will be inducted in 2015 with 20 mk1 aircraft.



LSP 8 is in the line for more than an year. So far I heard SP-1 is getting ready.


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## selvan33

rockstar said:


> LSP 8 is in the line for more than an year. So far I heard SP-1 is getting ready.



no production variant not yet started. actually at present HAL is repairing its LCA production unit by replacing 3rd generation aircraft tools with 4th generation aircraft production tools. so it will take another 1 to 2 months to re open a LCA production unit.

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2117 Test Flights Successfully. (4-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-361,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-154,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 2122 Test Flights Successfully. (13-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-362,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-158*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

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## li0nheart

sudhir007 said:


> LCA Flight test update
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2117 Test Flights Successfully. (4-April--2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-361,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-154,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)
> 
> to
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2122 Test Flights Successfully. (13-April--2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-362,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-158*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)



how many more before FOC


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## kam22

li0nheart said:


> I think numbers don't add up!



he forgot to highlight PV3



> LCA Flight test update
> 
> From
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2117 Test Flights Successfully. (4-April--2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-361*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-154*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)
> 
> to
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2122 Test Flights Successfully. (13-April--2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-362*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-158*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)



here you go ...ok

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## S-DUCT

@Dillinger:
I remembered that you asked about robots for spraying RAM paints on the thread"AMCA Project heading LCA Direction",Guess what? we are using Robots for spraying RAM on LCA itself.







and We now also have a full-fledge facilty to calculate RCS of 1:1 model at NAL.

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## Dillinger

S-DUCT said:


> @Dillinger:
> I remembered that you asked about robots for spraying RAM paints on the thread"AMCA Project heading LCA Direction",Guess what? we are using Robots for spraying RAM on LCA itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and We now also have a full-fledge facilty to calculate RCS of 1:1 model at NAL.



How will we measure the RCS of the full product in order to ensure that the final construction complied with the scale model completely?

How will we get Repair Verification Radar (RVR) test sets in order to verify the RCS of the aircraft after performing repairs?

It seems that in the last decade many specialized facilities and technical infra enclaves have popped up which were unavailable during the Tejas days. 

But darned I'll be- your posts always reveal something new every time.

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## Dillinger

S-DUCT said:


> @Dillinger:
> I remembered that you asked about robots for spraying RAM paints on the thread"AMCA Project heading LCA Direction",Guess what? we are using Robots for spraying RAM on LCA itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and We now also have a full-fledge facilty to calculate RCS of 1:1 model at NAL.


 @sandy_3126

Any comments on this? What other new test facilities have come up. I believe a turbine engine test facility was on the cards? Have such RAM coating machines been integrated into the production line or are they isolated to the prototype construction usage due to lack of numbers of said machines, pessimistically assuming there is a lack in numbers. 

After all of this we are still left with engine problems and as @sancho sir stated perhaps even basic design problems leading to issue of drag and unsatisfactory AOA- or is that *ONLY* because of an under powered engine on the LCA?


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## MilSpec

Dillinger said:


> @sandy_3126
> 
> Any comments on this? What other new test facilities have come up. I believe a turbine engine test facility was on the cards? Have such RAM coating machines been integrated into the production line or are they isolated to the prototype construction usage due to lack of numbers of said machines, pessimistically assuming there is a lack in numbers.



No clue mate, I left HAL almost 6 years ago, i keep in touch with old friends but none of them are in Banglore div!

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2122 Test Flights Successfully. (13-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-362,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-158,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2125 Test Flights Successfully. (17-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-363*,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-160*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

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## Abingdonboy

My latest vid:

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## Sergi

S-DUCT said:


> @Dillinger:
> I remembered that you asked about robots for spraying RAM paints on the thread"AMCA Project heading LCA Direction",Guess what? we are using Robots for spraying RAM on LCA itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and We now also have a full-fledge facilty to calculate RCS of 1:1 model at NAL.



Nice to know. 
But be careful mate with what you share here. Don't get yourself in any trouble.


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## IND151

Iron Fist 2013 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft





Broadsword: Top Gun footage of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft at the recent IAF Iron Fist exercise in Pokhran

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2125 Test Flights Successfully. (17-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-363,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-160,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2131 Test Flights Successfully. (20-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-364*,LSP1-74,*LSP2-259*,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-164*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1976_LCA_may_get_IOC_soon.htm

Air Cmde K.A. Muthana, VSM, Programme Director (Flight Test) piloted the aircraft on its maiden flight on March 31 at supersonic speeds and a 20 degree angle of attack, which is the current maximum limit cleared by its design.

Designed by DRDO&#8217;s Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA), the tail-less delta-wing aircraft was accepted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in March 2011 although its IOC has been delayed for long. Recently, Defence Minister AK Antony also expressed displeasure over the delay.

The aircraft is built by HAL. After the successful flight test of the 8th aircraft, HAL Chairman Dr. RK Tyagi said that &#8220;the performance of the aircraft was flawless.&#8221;

An HAL statement said that the aircraft underwent a series of rigorous checks by the certifying and inspecting agencies during the last fortnight with a few taxi checks to assess its performance.

&#8220;The last aircraft in the Limited Series Production programme of LCA-Tejas (LSP-08) took off on its maiden flight here today from HAL airport. The aircraft was flown covering a flight envelope at supersonic speeds and at an angle of attack of 20 degrees which is the current maximum limit cleared by design. With this, the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) for the aircraft can be expected soon.&#8221;

It should take a year or so to get the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), after which the aircraft would be inducted into IAF squadrons. 

&#8220;The aircraft with a build standard akin to the Initial Operation Clearance standard underwent series of rigorous checks by the certifying and inspecting agencies during the last fortnight with a few taxi checks to assess the aircraft performance. The flight clearance by the certifying agencies was accorded today (March 31) after ensuring that all the aircraft systems were functioning satisfactorily on ground.

&#8220;Till now aircraft normally undergo high speed taxy trials prior to the first flight. However, with the confidence gained by the flight crew and the certifying agencies during the build and ground checks a decision was taken to proceed with first flight without going through a separate high speed taxi trial."

The latest LCA carried several modifications relating to fuel, environment condition, electrical and avionics based on the feedback from the 7 earlier aircraft. The modified systems performed well.

Described as a Mig 21++ by former Chief of Air Staff PV Naik, the LCA uses a lot of light composite materials. Its initial lot is being powered by GE 404 engines, but under an agreement signed last year, HAL is acquiring 99 GE 414 engines &#8211; the same which power the US Navy&#8217;s Boeing Super Hornet F/A 18 aircraft &#8211; for the later versions.

IAF and the Indian Navy have a projected requirement of about 200 LCAs, officially designated Tejas. The long delay in the programme however may change the requirements as technology now changes by the day and it would be difficult to incorporate the emerging, newer hi- tech features.

However, Tejas indeed has several modular features. Besides the engine from the US, there are some 360 Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), out of which 168 are imported mostly from France, Germany, UK and Israel with the rest made in India.

According to DRDO Chief, Dr VK Saraswat, the effort is to indigenise wherever possible and the Indian industry, both public and private sector, is being encouraged to come up with exacting solutions, or drop-in replacements, to meet the requirements.

The indigenisation will be good for the country on the one hand and help boost the economy through the developing defence-industrial sector, he told India Strategic in an interview.

IAF will deploy the aircraft in southern India.

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## SRP

I don't understand why only one sortie for lsp8 in nearly one month.


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## sancho

Here are some possible load configs for IAFs LCA:






(Interception, CAP, CAS, heavy strikes)


For the record, possible N-LCA configs:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-492.html#post4123892


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## sudhir007

desert warrior said:


> I don't understand why only one sortie for lsp8 in nearly one month.



Lo kar de aapki murad puri .......... Khush

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2131 Test Flights Successfully. (20-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-259,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-164,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)
to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2132 Test Flights Successfully. (22-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-259,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-164,LSP7-34,NP1-4,*LSP8-2*)

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## Sergi

@sudhir007 : any idea when LSP7 & 8 will be handed over to IAF ???


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## nxk444

*Tejas not suffering delays not due to technical deficiency*
Recent media reports has been claiming technical deficiency of Tejas, sources close to idrw.org and some close to the program have informed that Tejas program is not suffering from technical deficiency has reported, other sources somewhat confirmed that &#8220;Go slow &#8220;approach has been adopted on AMCA case but work is moving ahead by small group of scientist has most of focus is still on achieving IOC-2 and to get Tejas MK-II in air by 2015.
Claims of Tejas requiring hours or days of technical checks after each flight was also dismissed by our sources. &#8220;It has to happen when TD-1 and TD-2 has to fly but not now&#8221; claimed a source, &#8220;same aircrafts are available for flights even on same day if they are any schedule test flights &#8220;. Aircrafts have successfully operated outside HAL complex (Bangalore) many times for various trials with minimum Ground crew &#8220;said same source.

Another source claimed &#8220;Tejas is suffering delays due to inexperience of ADA and HAL in getting things done in time frame and its failure to move production of various components from lab to production house&#8221;. But there is no denying that HAL is also guilty for not able to put the aircraft in production due to its own deficiency and it lack of trained manpower It takes HAL 9 to 12 months to assemble and make one Tejas aircraft airworthy, HAL is trying to bring it down immediately to 3 months and by 2015 HAL plans to cut it to 1.5 months for each aircraft.

IAF have ordered 40 Tejas MK-1, first 20 Tejas MK-1 will be based on IOC-2 Configuration and next batch will be based on Tejas MK-1 FOC configuration, ADA will be putting together Tejas MK-2 for its first flight by early 2015. In next Two or three years Tejas program has to achieve IOC-2, FOC for Tejas MK-1 and first flight of Tejas MK-2 and its production and certification , Refocus will also be back on testing of Naval Tejas . This has lead to &#8220;Go slow &#8220;approach on AMCA. And first flight of AMCA will also suffer delays due to this and first flight mostly likely will happen in 2020 or later as per sources.

Source: IDRW.org

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## S-DUCT

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed *2132* Test Flights Successfully. (22-April--2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-259*,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-164*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed *2134* Test Flights Successfully. (23-April--2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-260*,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-165*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)


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## sudhir007

Sergi said:


> @sudhir007 : any idea when LSP7 & 8 will be handed over to IAF ???


if all goes well, in the last quarter (sept or oct) of this year

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## selvan33

nxk444 said:


> *Tejas not suffering delays not due to technical deficiency*
> Recent media reports has been claiming technical deficiency of Tejas, sources close to idrw.org and some close to the program have informed that Tejas program is not suffering from technical deficiency has reported, other sources somewhat confirmed that Go slow approach has been adopted on AMCA case but work is moving ahead by small group of scientist has most of focus is still on achieving IOC-2 and to get Tejas MK-II in air by 2015.
> Claims of Tejas requiring hours or days of technical checks after each flight was also dismissed by our sources. It has to happen when TD-1 and TD-2 has to fly but not now claimed a source, same aircrafts are available for flights even on same day if they are any schedule test flights . Aircrafts have successfully operated outside HAL complex (Bangalore) many times for various trials with minimum Ground crew said same source.
> 
> Another source claimed Tejas is suffering delays due to inexperience of ADA and HAL in getting things done in time frame and its failure to move production of various components from lab to production house. But there is no denying that HAL is also guilty for not able to put the aircraft in production due to its own deficiency and it lack of trained manpower It takes HAL 9 to 12 months to assemble and make one Tejas aircraft airworthy, HAL is trying to bring it down immediately to 3 months and by 2015 HAL plans to cut it to 1.5 months for each aircraft.
> 
> IAF have ordered 40 Tejas MK-1, first 20 Tejas MK-1 will be based on IOC-2 Configuration and next batch will be based on Tejas MK-1 FOC configuration, ADA will be putting together Tejas MK-2 for its first flight by early 2015. In next Two or three years Tejas program has to achieve IOC-2, FOC for Tejas MK-1 and first flight of Tejas MK-2 and its production and certification , Refocus will also be back on testing of Naval Tejas . This has lead to Go slow approach on AMCA. And first flight of AMCA will also suffer delays due to this and first flight mostly likely will happen in 2020 or later as per sources.
> 
> Source: IDRW.org


*Tejas not suffering delays not due to technical deficiency | idrw.org*


----------



## Jayanta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHQPz3lbK6E


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## sudhir007

FORCE-A Complete News Magazine on National Security-Defence Magazine,Indian Defence,AERO India 2011 Bangalore Bengaluru,magazine on Indian navy,Indian Army,Indian Air Force,Indian Paramilitary forces,Naxalism,Jammu & Kashmir,terrorism,national securi

angalore: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) designed Light Combat Aircraft (Navy) is a highly ambitious project to develop the world&#8217;s smallest and lightest, carrier borne fighter with an unstable delta configuration and digital Fly by Wire (FBW). The LCA Navy must cater for a low approach speed, Ski Jump take off capability, with critical management of Angle of Attack (AoA), and have a structure capable of absorbing high vertical speeds while landing on an aircraft carrier deck. For ADA, with no experience in designing such an aircraft, the task has proved to be monumental and the first flight of the LCA Navy Trainer Prototype (NP-1) has been delayed by over a year. It is expected to take place only in the first half of this year. 

The delay cannot be good news for the Indian Navy which, committed as it is to indigenisation, can now realistically expect the LCA Trainer variant to achieve Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by 2016, with Final Operational Clearance (FOC) expected two years later, by 2018. This would actually be very good going as ADA would have delivered an operational navy trainer with which selected aircrew could begin conversion training aboard an aircraft carrier.

Admiral Nirmal Verma speaking at the roll out of NP-1 stated that &#8220;The LCA Navy aircrew should have carried out conversion flying on the LCA Navy Trainer by 2014, as the indigenous aircraft carrier presently under construction in Kochi would also enter service at the same time.&#8221; As per a report by the Comptroller and Audit General (CAG) last year, as of December 2009, only 35 per cent work on the indigenous carrier had been completed. Compared to NP-1, the LCA Navy Fighter Prototype (NP-2) will feature revised air intakes for better engine performance at low speeds, full navy-specified avionics suite and increased internal fuel. The programme, as it stands today, needs more than a decade of design, development and flight testing before being able to trap on deck as an operational, all weather fleet defence fighter, flying off an aircraft carrier. Former chairman (HAL) Ashok Nayak had requested an early order for Limited Series Production (LSP) production of the LCA Navy Trainer, as a lead time of three years is required, to manufacture the aircraft. These orders would then be dovetailed into HAL&#8217;s existing orders. As it stands now, the LCA Navy Trainer will have only limited operational relevance.


----------



## RPK

*Air Force audit says pact for LCA parts unauthorised*


*Air Force audit says pact for LCA parts unauthorised*
Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, April 24, 2013, DHNS:
The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), one of the agencies working on light combat aircraft &#8212; Tejas had struck an agreement with BAE Systems Overseas Inc for supply of 15 ship sets of integrated flight control systems line replacement units costing US$3,06,00,000, without the approval of competent authority, states the audit of the Office of the Director of Air Force Audit. 

BAE Systems Overseas Inc was to have delivered the units by March 2009. &#8220;Under the contract, ADE received 14 shipments. The consignment containing the 15th set consisting of actuators (total 15 numbers) valuing US$21,27,215 (Rs 10.63 crore) in one case weighing 206-kg was sent via shipper number 54151 dated December 17, 2008 by British Airways. However, the consignment was not received by ADE,&#8221; the report, completed in 2010 reveals.

Bringing this to the notice of Defence Minister A K Antony, Javed Abbas Technical Officer &#8216;B&#8217;, retired, in a letter said there are several other irregularities going on at ADE, a lab under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), regarding appointments, promotions and transfers.

The audit report, annexed in to the letter, further states: &#8220;as per documents provided by BAE Systems, USA, the consignment was received by British Airways and the aircraft left the John F Kennedy International Airport (New York) for Heathrow Airport, London on December 12, 2008 by flight number BA 114.&#8221;

While 40 per cent of the value of these products had already been paid to BAE, payment for balance, amounting to 60 per cent of value was effected in October 2009, well after the deadline for delivering of the units was passed, and, the consignment had not reached ADE.

The auditors point out that as per para 7.2 of Purchase Management procedure, 2006, stores costing Rs 2.5 crore might be insured against loss or damage in transit and that insurance cover will invariably be obtained from the insurance agency before dispatching the consignment by the supplier. 

&#8220;However, the consignment was not insured by DRDO in contravention of the regulation. On reasons for non-insurance, the ADE stated that the clearing agent Air Consolidation Agent &#8212; Balmer & Lawrie & Co did not advise the establishment to do so,&#8221; the report adds. Observing that the excuse is not tenable, the audit said, onus of deciding on whether the consignment should be insured or not rests with ADE and not the clearing agent. 

&#8220;Thus, by not insuring the consignment by ADE, as provided in the regulation, the State had to bear loss of Rs 10.63 crore,&#8221; the report concluded. 

DRDO sources said the consignment, eventually never reached the organisation, and it was lost in transit!


----------



## black_jack

what happened to LSP-6 ?


----------



## ejaz007

Latest Update:

*April 21/13:*

Tejas a lemon? The Sunday Standard reports that the Tejas is much farther away from viability than anyone is admitting, and says that DRDOs notional stealth AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) has been put on hold until the LCA project can be made to work. A stealth FGFA/SU-50 is already in co-development with Russia, so AMCAs value is unclear anyway. With respect to the Tejas LCA, the Sunday Standards unnamed sources say:

The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians. The common man thinks the plane is doing fine, its engine sounds great and the manoeuvres are perfect. But those flying and weapons firing displays are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own. the sources noted that LCA was grounded for three months between September and December 2012 following problems with its landing gear. Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute [servicing]. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie, they said.

These revelations come against a backdrop of pressure from Indias defense minister Antony and Indias government to buy designed-in-India items unless theres no other choice. Hes selling changes to Indias Defence Procurement Policy as an anti-corruption effort  but what do you call spending billions of dollars on politically-allied state organizations, who dont deliver on the critical defense projects assigned to them, and never pay any serious penalties for it? Their competitors in China and Pakistan are consistently faster and often better  while doing a better job developing their industries. See also India PIB .

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...10-but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine-01901/


----------



## Gentelman

Tejas grounds Medium Combat
Aircraft project



By NC Bipindra - NEW DELHI
Published: 21st Apr 2013 10:16:44 AM

Troubles in Indias ambitious Light Combat
Aircraft (LCA) project has inflicted gaping
wounds where it would hurt the Indian Air
Force (IAF) the mostthe future plans for an
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has put on
hold the AMCA project that is being
spearheaded by Defence Research and
Development Organisations (DRDO)
Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).
The reason for the sudden decision to send the
AMCA projectwhich began in right earnest in
2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA)
development in 2006to cold storage is to
help ADA to focus all its energies to first work
on completing the much-delayed LCA project.
The AMCA has been put on hold for the
moment. This decision was taken recently to
let the ADA focus on the LCA project, top
Defence Ministry sources told The Sunday
Standard. The AMCA project, for which the IAF
provided the final Air Staff Qualitative
Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be
taken up at a later date, sources said. But that
will still be far away in the future.
India will buy Rafale planes from the French
Dassault Aviation as part of its 126 Medium
Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA); in the
tender there is a provision to buy another 63
as a follow-on order. That apart, India is
working on the Fifth Generation Fighter
Aircraft (FGFA) in collaboration with Russia.
With the final agreement on the design and
development of the FGFA three months away,
India will get at least 140 FGFAs for induction
by 2027. Considering that most of the
capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the
MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the
AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources
said.
The AMCAs envisaged features include stealth,
multi-role operations, adequate precision strike
capabilities, including critical first-day
missions such as Suppression of Enemy Air
Defence (SEAD) and Destruction of Enemy Air
Defence (DEAD).
The much-touted Tejas has taken 30 years
already, at an escalated project cost of Rs
5,489 crore. Since the LCA project was
sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore,
the time overrun has resulted in a 10-fold
increase in the project cost. The plane is yet to
get even its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC)
so that the IAF could take the plane for a spin.
But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks
certain critical capabilities, including a reliable
radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical
parameters. The plane cannot fly on its own.
It needs a lifeline in the form of support and
monitoring of its systems from the ground by
technicians, they said.
The LCA, in fact, gave creditable flying displays
during the AeroIndia show in Yelahanka in
Bangalore in February this year, and followed
it up with weapons firing to hit both ground
and aerial targets during the Iron Fist fire
power display by the IAF in the Rajasthans
Pokhran ranges, again in February this year.
The common man thinks the plane is doing
fine, its engine sounds great and the
manoeuvres are perfect. But those flying and
weapons firing displays are done with ground
monitoring and support. The plane is still not
ready to flying on its own, sources stressed.
Their guess is the LCA may not meet its
schedule of obtaining the IOC before July this
year and it could take till December this year
or early next year before it is ready. To give an
example of LCAs troubles, the sources noted
that LCA was grounded for three months
between September and December 2012
following problems with its landing gear.
Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next
sortie following a 30-minute attention from
ground service personnel soon after it has
returned from a mission. In the case of LCA,
after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it
needs three days of servicing before it can go
for its next sortie, they said.
At present, the IAF has placed an order for 40
LCAs Mk1 to raise two squadrons by 2016-17
with HAL which is the nodal agency for
production of Tejas. But these will be delivered
with the American General Electric F404
engines which provide only 80 Kilo Newton
power.
Later, 80 more LCAs of its Mk2 version will be
ordered for raising four more squadrons. The
LCA Mk2 will be powered by the GE F414
engines that provide a 90 Kilo Newton thrust.
The Sunday Standard


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## S-DUCT

It looks like, Shore based test facility at INS Hansa is completed.

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## kurup

S-DUCT said:


> It looks like, Shore based test facility at INS Hansa is completed.



Cannot see the image . Please fix it.


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## Sergi

kurup said:


> Cannot see the image . Please fix it.



Image is fine. It's clear even in your quote. Try reloading.


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> It looks like, Shore based test facility at INS Hansa is completed.



Couldn't see it either in the post:


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## kurup

Sergi said:


> Image is fine. It's clear even in your quote. Try reloading.



Reloaded , still cannot see the picture.


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## RPK




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## BLEND

sancho said:


> Couldn't see it either in the post:




@kurup
Here is the image, had to download and upload on another hosting site. Hope you don't mind @S-DUCT

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## S-DUCT

@BLEND:Thanks for fixing that image.


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## kurup

BLEND said:


> @kurup
> Here is the image, had to download and upload on another hosting site. Hope you don't mind @S-DUCT



So the white part on the left road is the ramp ??


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## S-DUCT

@kurup:yeah,that left part is the ramp.

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## sancho

kurup said:


> So the white part on the left road is the ramp ??



Yes:






Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Shore-Based Test Facility nearing completion in Goa | NP-1 set for low-speed taxi trials in Bangalore

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Yes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Shore-Based Test Facility nearing completion in Goa | NP-1 set for low-speed taxi trials in Bangalore



It's very old image. About 1/2 years old. Anybody got new one ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> It's very old image. About 1/2 years old. Anybody got new one ???



I know, just for reference and in other angles.

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2134 Test Flights Successfully. (23-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-260,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-165,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2136 Test Flights Successfully. (25-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-261*,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,*LSP5-166*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2139 Test Flights Successfully. (27-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-262*,PV5-36,*LSP3-123*,LSP4-72,LSP5-166,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007



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## selvan33

*Making of Super Tejas (MK-2)*






According to the sources close to idrw.org, ADA and HAL will start working on the first airframe of Tejas MK-2 by end of this year and first flight of Tejas MK-2 is expected by early 2015 and enters service with IAF by 2018.
Tejas MK-2 will be based on Tejas MK-1, But MK-2 will be larger, able to carry more fuel and weapons payload carry more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engines and technologically will be more advanced.
Tejas MK-2 was born when Indian navy wanted a carrier fighter aircraft based on Tejas MK-1 air force variant, Navy wanted more powerful engines to care out carrier take off, Navy also wanted changes in Airframe for carrier role, and IAF sensing an opportunity that a new and better variant of Tejas can be developed based on Indian navy requirements, was quick to grab this opportunity and pressed for development of new variant, even when Tejas MK-1 was able to fulfil ASR of IAF.
Tejas MK-2 will have improved avionics, Upgrade of Flight Control Computers, in flight refuelling retractable probe, On board oxygen generation system and a new Electronic Warfare Suite , to avoid delays to the program , Earlier Tejas Prototype ( PV-1) has been assigned with the MK-2 program and will act has the test bed for MK-2 program.
MK-2 will also get new improved pilot friendly all glass cockpits which will have larger and better screens to reduce pilot fatigue; India has already placed orders with General Electric (GE) for 99 F414-GE-INS6 engines which will produce more thrust than previous F404 engines which power Tejas MK-1. F414-GE-INS6 engines feature a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system.
Development of AESA radar has already begun but will be integrated with Tejas MK-2 when it is fully certified; leading to speculate that first Block of MK-2 will come with current MMR radar which is already integrated in Tejas MK-1.
*Making of Super Tejas (MK-2) | idrw.org*

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## selvan33

*Making of Super Tejas (MK-2)*






According to the sources close to idrw.org, ADA and *HAL will start working on the first airframe of Tejas MK-2 by end of this year and first flight of Tejas MK-2 is expected by early 2015 and enters service with IAF by 2018.*
Tejas MK-2 will be based on Tejas MK-1, But MK-2 will be larger, able to carry more fuel and weapons payload carry more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engines and technologically will be more advanced.
*Tejas MK-2 was born when Indian navy wanted a carrier fighter aircraft based on Tejas MK-1 air force variant, Navy wanted more powerful engines to care out carrier take off, Navy also wanted changes in Airframe for carrier role, and IAF sensing an opportunity that a new and better variant of Tejas can be developed based on Indian navy requirements, was quick to grab this opportunity and pressed for development of new variant, even when Tejas MK-1 was able to fulfil ASR of IAF.*
Tejas MK-2 will have improved avionics, Upgrade of Flight Control Computers, in flight refuelling retractable probe, On board oxygen generation system and a new Electronic Warfare Suite , to avoid delays to the program , Earlier Tejas Prototype ( PV-1) has been assigned with the MK-2 program and will act has the test bed for MK-2 program.
MK-2 will also get new improved pilot friendly all glass cockpits which will have larger and better screens to reduce pilot fatigue; India has already placed orders with General Electric (GE) for 99 F414-GE-INS6 engines which will produce more thrust than previous F404 engines which power Tejas MK-1. F414-GE-INS6 engines feature a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system.
*Development of AESA radar has already begun but will be integrated with Tejas MK-2 when it is fully certified;* leading to speculate that *first Block of MK-2 will come with current MMR radar which is already integrated in Tejas MK-1.*
*Making of Super Tejas (MK-2) | idrw.org*

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## 3Idiots

Looks good.


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## Anony

selvan33 said:


> According to the sources close to idrw.org, ADA and *HAL will start working on the first airframe of Tejas MK-2 by end of this year *


*

What does start working here signify? Production or design? Because sometime back I heard that air frame and other design related work of Mk2 is completed by ADA.*

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## 3Idiots

Anony said:


> What does start working here signify? Production or design? Because sometime back I heard that air frame and other design related work of Mk2 is completed by ADA.



Production .. of first prototype.

They are currently using the Tejas Mk-1 PV-1 as a test bed for testing new technologies which will be incorporated in Mk-2.

What I don't like is why they want to take 1 to 1.5 years to finish the first Mk-2 prototype... starting end-of-year and Mk-2 flied in 2015 !! (even if you include time for certifications.. 1.5 years looks quite large).

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## S-DUCT

selvan33 said:


> According to the sources close to idrw.org, ADA and *HAL will start working on the first airframe of Tejas MK-2 by end of this year and first flight of Tejas MK-2 is expected by early 2015 and enters service with IAF by 2018.*


IIRC Tejas MK-2 build began in late 2012.
Livefist: Tejas Mk.2 Build Begins


> HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
> for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
> 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
> taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


MK2 build began on december last year,so its quite probable that 1st flight will take place on last quarter of 2014.


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## 帅的一匹

looks like a JAS39 without canards.

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## punjabiboy

good news


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## selvan33

S-DUCT said:


> IIRC Tejas MK-2 build began in late 2012.
> Livefist: Tejas Mk.2 Build Begins
> 
> MK2 build began on december last year,so its quite probable that 1st flight will take place on last quarter of 2014.



they gave orders only for alloys and other structures but construction not yet started dude. yes we can see MK2 in last quarter of 2014 or first quater of 2015.



Anony said:


> What does start working here signify? Production or design? Because sometime back I heard that air frame and other design related work of Mk2 is completed by ADA.



ADA completed the designing phase of airframe and HAL also gave orders for alloys and other structures but construction only not yet started dude.



danish falcon said:


> What about Tejas Mk-1.... ???
> *I think IAF should focus on Mk-1 first...*!!



I think IAF will take care of that. you no need to worry dude.

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## IND151

selvan33 said:


> they gave orders only for alloys and other structures but construction not yet started dude. yes we can see MK2 in last quarter of 2014 or first quater of 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> *ADA completed the designing phase of airframe and HAL also gave orders for alloys and other structures but construction only not yet started dude.
> *
> 
> 
> I think IAF will take care of that. you no need to worry dude.



Thanks for info

MK 2 has stretched fuselage, if CGIs in OP are correct


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## SpArK

selvan33 said:


> *Making of Super Tejas (MK-2)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> | idrw.org[/url][/B]



It should look like this... atleast.

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## selvan33

IND151 said:


> Thanks for info
> 
> MK 2 has stretched fuselage, if CGIs in OP are correct



Fuselage will be little enlarged and the twin internal air-intake ducts will be minimally enlarged to cater to the increased airflow requirements and nose only strecthed to 1 meter more than MK1 dude.


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## selvan33

SpArK said:


> It should look like this... atleast.



EADS Mako/HEAT. Am i right dude. yeah that's a good aircraft with 4.5 tonne payload. but i can't get your point why you are comparing it and in what way you are saying.


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## SpArK

selvan33 said:


> EADS Mako/HEAT. Am i right dude. yeah that's a good aircraft with 4.5 tonne payload. but i can't get your point why you are comparing it and in *what way you are saying*.



Just the Frontal stealth, glass canopy and air intakes. 

not to forget the "looks".

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## 帅的一匹

Tejas is a project never to the end, MK2 will be obsolete before indcution.

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## selvan33

SpArK said:


> Just the *Frontal stealth, glass canopy and air intakes. *
> 
> not to forget the "looks".



Yes. but tejas also having an all glass cockpit featuring MFD's and supports NVG eyewear. there is also stadard HUD to reflect real time performance numbers and mission information.And it is also having HOTAS, HMDS etc., to reduce pilots work load which is really good one. And later variants of tejas will also incorporates a certain level of stealth by using composites(alluminium lithium based alloys as well as carbon fiber and huge titanium alloys in its later variants) and some purposively produced exteriors with RAM will help help to minimize the reflect on incoming radar waves. And about air intakes the size of the MK1 and mako is little similar because of engine thrust but the shape of mako is little stealthier. And about looks *FOR me* teja is a sexy beast then EADS HEAT.


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## SpArK

selvan33 said:


> Yes. but tejas also having an all glass cockpit featuring MFD's and supports NVG eyewear. there is also stadard HUD to reflect real time performance numbers and mission information.And it is also having HOTAS, HMDS etc., to reduce pilots work load which is really good one. And later variants of tejas will also incorporates a certain level of stealth by using composites(alluminium lithium based alloys as well as carbon fiber and huge titanium alloys in its later variants) and some purposively produced exteriors with RAM will help help to minimize the reflect on incoming radar waves. And about air intakes the size of the MK1 and mako is little similar because of engine thrust but the shape of mako is little stealthier. And about looks *FOR me* teja is a sexy beast then EADS HEAT.



I know all these things.

Every kid knows *it here*.

I was wishing it to be more lethal looking.

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## neehar

animelive said:


> ok let me be more specific, is that an aircraft?



grab some popcorn and njoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLyWoFczpms

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## GR!FF!N

animelive said:


> ok let me be more specific, is that an aircraft?



nope,thats an model/picture of aircraft..do you ever saw an aircraft on standard wooden table generally used for reading???or did you ever saw an real aircraft standing in poster???its just an "Image" or what we call an "Model"(might be proposed or already applied) of an aircraft..


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## fatman17

*India And The Tejas Tragedy*


April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably. The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks. 

This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more. 

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready. 

The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes. 

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready. 

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.


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## neehar

animelive said:


> so back to my first question, will it have the ability to fly?



LCA Tejas at Iron Fist 2013 - YouTube

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## Capt.Popeye

Sergi said:


> It's very old image. About 1/2 years old. Anybody got new one ???



That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.



Sergi said:


> It's very old image. About 1/2 years old. Anybody got new one ???



That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.



Sergi said:


> It's very old image. About 1/2 years old. Anybody got new one ???



That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.

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## IndianArmy

Light Combat Aircraft MK1 brings no new technology to IAF that it doesnt have and that's the main reason behind the delay. LCA MK2 on the other hand has a few technologies like OBOGS and AESA which IAF seeks to add in it future fleet. if LCA Mk2 is delivered before MMRCA and FGFA, it will play a major role in IAF.

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## IndianArmy

One good thread spoiled.
@mods. Why dont we close it? as we already have a sticky thread on LCA going, or merge it after a cleanup. Lets not allow Tejas to go out of the milky way, as it has already reached pluto.

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## janon

IndianArmy said:


> Light Combat Aircraft MK1 brings no new technology to IAF that it doesnt have and that's the main reason behind the delay. LCA MK2 on the other hand has a few technologies like OBOGS and AESA which IAF seeks to add in it future fleet. if LCA Mk2 is delivered before MMRCA and FGFA, it will play a major role in IAF.



Even if it doesn't bring in new technology, it can bring in NUMBERS, can it not?

The IAF doesnt have the required 39 squadrons, and complains about falling squadron levels everyday. So why belittle the Mk1, which by the way has many capabilities that half the IAF fleet doesn't have? (mig 21, mig 27, jaguar).

By that logic, IAF wouldn't buy any LCA or further Indian stuff, because they will be available from elsewhere. The Rafales, and most probably the upgraded MKIs would both have AESA, so why purchase Mk2?

From the LCA program, was the IAF hoping to induct new technologies that did not exist, or was it trying to replace all it's old platforms which were nearing the end of their lifespans?

IAF should induct the Mk1 for numbers, not for any game changing technology. They will do most jobs marvellously, at a far lower cost than the heavies.

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## neehar

janon said:


> Even if it doesn't bring in new technology, it can bring in NUMBERS, can it not?
> 
> The IAF doesnt have the required 39 squadrons, and complains about falling squadron levels everyday. So why belittle the Mk1, which by the way has many capabilities that half the IAF fleet doesn't have? (mig 21, mig 27, jaguar).
> 
> By that logic, IAF wouldn't buy any LCA or further Indian stuff, because they will be available from elsewhere. The Rafales, and most probably the upgraded MKIs would both have AESA, so why purchase Mk2?
> 
> From the LCA program, was the IAF hoping to induct new technologies that did not exist, or was it trying to replace all it's old platforms which were nearing the end of their lifespans?
> 
> IAF should induct the Mk1 for numbers, not for any game changing technology. They will do most jobs marvellously, at a far lower cost than the heavies.



yes and it'll be easier to manufacutre mk2 when theres already a line for mk1 is running.just need some minor changes in the production line


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## IndianArmy

janon said:


> Even if it doesn't bring in new technology, it can bring in NUMBERS, can it not?
> 
> The IAF doesnt have the required 39 squadrons, and complains about falling squadron levels everyday. So why belittle the Mk1, which by the way has many capabilities that half the IAF fleet doesn't have? (mig 21, mig 27, jaguar).
> 
> By that logic, IAF wouldn't buy any LCA or further Indian stuff, because they will be available from elsewhere. The Rafales, and most probably the upgraded MKIs would both have AESA, so why purchase Mk2?
> 
> From the LCA program, was the IAF hoping to induct new technologies that did not exist, or was it trying to replace all it's old platforms which were nearing the end of their lifespans?
> 
> IAF should induct the Mk1 for numbers, not for any game changing technology. They will do most jobs marvellously, at a far lower cost than the heavies.



I agree to most of your arguments. The Initial requirements have changed drastically. Inducting LCA is not our priority as India has otherways like the ongoing production of Su-30 MKI to increase the count. IAF is not keen to order much with IOC standards hardly 20 which is good while it may not pave way for manufacturing in the country but will certainly train the industry to keep the quality levels high.

A 4.5 gen aircraft is being built in a 3rd generation facility. had IAF accepted the day it received its first IOC we would probably see AMCA being built in such a facility too. IAF has forced the HAL to improve its facilities and has also made it clear to DRDO that anything and everything it produces will not be inducted until its meets the desired specifications of the forces.


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## S-DUCT

Confirmed features and upgrades on MK-2.
1) On-board oxygen generating system(OBOGS).
2) fuselage is streched by .5m nad intakes are widened by 10mm.
3) Bubble canopy.
4) AESA-MMR.
5) Full glass cockpit with AMLCD screens.
6) Tarang mk-3 RWR.
7) Improved FCS and FBW.
If something is missing in the list,feel free to add and correvt it.

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## janon

IndianArmy said:


> I agree to most of your arguments. The Initial requirements have changed drastically. *Inducting LCA is not our priority as India has otherways like the ongoing production of Su-30 MKI to increase the count.* IAF is not keen to order much with IOC standards hardly 20 which is good while it may not pave way for manufacturing in the country but will certainly train the industry to keep the quality levels high.
> 
> A 4.5 gen aircraft is being built in a 3rd generation facility. had IAF accepted the day it received its first IOC we would probably see AMCA being built in such a facility. IAF has forced the HAL to improve its facilities and has also made it clear to DRDO that anything and everything it produces will not be inducted until its meets the desired specifications of the forces.



None of it seems to be working, because we are still low on numbers, and as per envisaged policy, we will not meet even the sanctioned strength for several years. HAL has NOT been able to increase the production rate of MKIs, and no further order have been made for those anyway.

Besides, ordering more MKIs might make sense for the next few years, but in the long run, over the entire lifetime of those aircrafts, they would cost so much more to operate and maintain. We DO need a small, light, cheap multirole platform to balance the force structure. Getting a hundred Mk1 and 200 Mk2 when they arrive makes more sense, does it not, than increasing the orders for MKIs? (Anyway HAL has not been producing MKIs at an impressive rate.)

I understand that IAF doesn't want to order LCAs that don't meet their requirements. But should they set their requirements that high for the first iteration, when a second iteration is planned anyway? The Mk1 will be MUCH more capable than the 400 aircrafts that are facing imminent retirement. They will also be better than most aircrafts fielded by our adversaries for the near future. Why not order more of those (after they get full IOC), say a 100+, instead of the 20+20 they have ordered?


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## IndianArmy

janon said:


> None of it seems to be working, because we are still low on numbers, and as per envisaged policy, we will not meet even the sanctioned strength for several years. HAL has NOT been able to increase the production rate of MKIs, and no further order have been made for those anyway.
> 
> Besides, ordering more MKIs might make sense for the next few years, but in the long run, over the entire lifetime of those aircrafts, they would cost so much more to operate and maintain. We DO need a small, light, cheap multirole platform to balance the force structure. Getting a hundred Mk1 and 200 Mk2 when they arrive makes more sense, does it not, than increasing the orders for MKIs? (Anyway HAL has not been producing MKIs at an impressive rate.)
> 
> I understand that IAF doesn't want to order LCAs that don't meet their requirements. But should they set their requirements that high for the first iteration, when a second iteration is planned anyway? The Mk1 will be MUCH more capable than the 400 aircrafts that are facing imminent retirement. They will also be better than most aircrafts fielded by our adversaries for the near future. Why not order more of those (after they get full IOC), say a 100+, instead of the 20+20 they have ordered?




Its the responsibility of the Manufacturer and the designers to take a quick initiative to meet all the parameters put forth by the IAF before it is even thought of being Inducted. It might not look sensible now, but in the long run, we would not only have variety of products in the suppliers inventory to offer but also at par with the contemporary. 

IAF is helping PSU's to upgrade their facilities. If LCA was limited to its initial requirement, we would never see our Pvt sector growing. 

I can understand the frustration Indian Members go through in PDF because of LCA and its time frame, but let me remind you that reality is far different and distant.

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## selvan33

SpArK said:


> I know all these things.
> 
> Every kid knows *it here*.
> 
> I was wishing it to be more lethal looking.



May be as a senior member you know everything. but as a new member and also as a professioner i am trying to learn about it and am expecting proposed MK2 variant with its proposed specifications and not more than that currently. That's enough for me to secure my nation.


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## Abingdonboy

S-DUCT said:


> Confirmed features and upgrades on MK-2.
> 1) On-board oxygen generating system(OBOGS).
> 2) fuselage is streched by .5m nad intakes are widened by 10mm.
> 3) Bubble canopy.
> 4) AESA-MMR.
> 5) Full glass cockpit with AMLCD screens.
> 6) Tarang mk-3 RWR.
> 7) Improved FCS and FBW.
> If something is missing in the list,feel free to add and correvt it.



8) IFR probe (fixed or retractable it is still unclear). 
9) increased internal fuel capacity.


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## neehar

Abingdonboy said:


> 8) IFR probe (fixed or retractable it is still unclear).
> 9) increased internal fuel capacity.



so how does it stand on paper compared to the same class fighters??


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## Abingdonboy

neehar said:


> so how does it stand on paper compared to the same class fighters??



Let's wait for more details to emerge before anyone starts comparing the Mk.2 to anything else. We still are yet to have the specs on the AESA the MK.2 will carry and are unsure if the radar will even be ready in time, we don't know what EW suite will be present nor do we know the revised range on internal fuel, the new TWR taking into account he more powerful engine but added weight nor do we yet know the exact weapons suite the MK.2 will come with. 


Too many ifs and nuts and maybes, let a clearer picture of the project emerge mate- there's no rush.


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## neehar

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's wait for more details to emerge before anyone starts comparing the Mk.2 to anything else. We still are yet to have the specs on the AESA the MK.2 will carry and are unsure if the radar will even be ready in time, we don't know what EW suite will be present nor do we know the revised range on internal fuel, the new TWR taking into account he more powerful engine but added weight nor do we yet know the exact weapons suite the MK.2 will come with.
> 
> 
> Too many ifs and nuts and maybes, let a clearer picture of the project emerge mate- there's no rush.



to sum up ur post the answer is "we dont know yet"..so nothing more can we do other than to wait..

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## Srinivas

LCA MK2 will be the main project in the years to come.

1) Some stealth upgrades with tech. derived from PAK-FA
2) AESA radar
3) Bubble canopy
4) Big air intakes

will be the main upgrades for this small but efficient defender of our skies.


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## neehar

when i opened the website of ada..heres wht i got
http://www.ada.gov.in/ADA-IND.pdf

they're looking to indigenize the imported components which is a good thing i guess


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## 1ndy

Light weight (hope mk2 empty weight won't be more than mk1) + more thrust engine + increased wing area = a highly maneuverable fighter.


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## Sergi

Capt.Popeye said:


> That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.
> 
> 
> 
> That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.
> 
> 
> 
> That is just the Ramp part. We'll get to see the pictures when the SBTF is commissioned in June.



Looking forward to that


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## Sergi

nuclearpak said:


> Uh are you blind? Can't you see the last 2 pages?



Plz Merge this thread to LCA sticky.


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## Psyops

Just more boasting, nothing will happen. They will predict it will finish at a certain date and you can bet it will be delayed. Remember the failed Kaveri engine project.  we have seen this story before, just rinse and repeat.

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## thesolar65

Anony said:


> What does start working here signify? Production or design? Because sometime back I heard that air frame and other design related work of Mk2 is completed by ADA.


Yes, sometimes back it was stated that metal cutting has started!!

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## Sergi

@anybody : do we get the delivery of GE414 ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @anybody : do we get the delivery of GE414 ???



What exactly do you mean? Yes we do get the GE 414 for LCA MK2, but not as of now.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> What exactly do you mean? Yes we do get the GE 414 for LCA MK2, but not as of now.



Read the news that work on Mark-2 has already begun. So was curious if engine has arrived or not. Any time line for that ???


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> looks like a JAS39 without canards.



except of canards
except of radar blockers
except of different air intakes
except of different nose design
except of different wing design
except of different different canopy
except of different different APU layout
except of different EW housing
except of different gear bays
except of different hardpoint layout
...
...
...

The only real thing that LCA MK2 has in common with the Gripen is, the GE 414 engine!

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## sancho

selvan33 said:


> EADS Mako/HEAT. Am i right dude. yeah that's a good aircraft with 4.5 tonne payload. but i can't get your point why you are comparing it and in what way you are saying.



Sadly we focused to much on pride reasons and not on capability, otherwise we would have take the EADS offer for a co-development for an advanced trainer. We could have take LCA MK1 on it, while MK2 could have included design features of the MAKO HEAT, just like the EJ 200 engine with 3D TVC. It would have been a hell of an upgrade!




S-DUCT said:


> Confirmed features and upgrades on MK-2.
> 3) Bubble canopy.
> 4) AESA-MMR.



The canopy won't change, only the naval version will have a slightly different nose section. AESA is till not confirmed yet, other than from DRDOs Saraswat, which is anything but a reliable source.



1ndy said:


> Light weight hope mk2 empty weight won't be more than mk1.



It already has a light weight for the class, but not according the initial plans. The aim now is to further reduce the weight, but at the same time they want to add a heavier engine, more airframe parts (longer fuselage), more internal fuel tanks, possibly IRST and AESA, which all adds to the weight, so less weight than MK1 is hardly possible.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Read the news that work on Mark-2 has already begun. So was curious if engine has arrived or not. Any time line for that ???



Ah now I got it. Yes work has begun, but still in the early stages of the re-designs and evaluations what is necessary, what is possible..., if I remember correctly the prototype is meant to fly in 2015.


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> except of canards
> except of radar blockers
> except of different air intakes
> except of different nose design
> except of different wing design
> except of different different canopy
> except of different different APU layout
> except of different EW housing
> except of different gear bays
> except of different hardpoint layout
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 
> The only real thing that LCA MK2 has in common with the Gripen is, the GE 414 engine!



Sancho you should know by now that Tejas is just copy of anything that flies.

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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> except of canards
> except of radar blockers
> except of different air intakes
> except of different nose design
> except of different wing design
> except of different different canopy
> except of different different APU layout
> except of different EW housing
> except of different gear bays
> except of different hardpoint layout
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 
> The only real thing that LCA MK2 has in common with the Gripen is, the GE 414 engine!









He's just say that cause it's thin like the Griphen on that pic.


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## Umair Nawaz

class over said:


> U mean chinese vl make 4.5 gen fighter for u guys



No i mean Pak-China joint venture.

Or yr jealous as u dont enjoy such leverages from yr allies n waste 30+ years to make a single a/c


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## gslv mk3

Umair Nawaz said:


> No i mean Pak-China joint venture.
> 
> Or yr jealous as u dont enjoy such leverages from yr allies n waste 30+ years to make a single a/c



JV?What JV?What is your contribution to FC1 project??


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## class over

gslv mk3 said:


> JV?What JV?What is your contribution to FC1 project??



There sole contribution in these JV'S is to place orders nd buy those china made aircrafts

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## Umair Nawaz

gslv mk3 said:


> JV?What JV?What is your contribution to FC1 project??



LOL kiddo u again..........

Read the JFT thread n educate yr tiny hindi brain.


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## gslv mk3

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL kiddo u again..........
> 
> Read the JFT thread n educate yr tiny hindi brain.



yeah some FC Software(That god damn thing doesnt have an all axis FBW) and some Avionics.You doesnt have any experience in developing airframe for even a turboprop trainer...

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## thesolar65

I am not an aircraft expert, but an elect. engg. I know that kaveri engine has failed to be installed in LCA for the want of required power. But just for knowledge can somebody clarify if two kaveri engines can be fitted in one aircraft? If yes then just how much bigger the plane has to be in order to have two engines? Just tell me the name of an existing bigger plane and I will know the size.


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## gslv mk3

thesolar65 said:


> I am not an aircraft expert, but an elect. engg. I know that kaveri engine has failed to be installed in LCA for the want of required power. But just for knowledge can somebody clarify if two kaveri engines can be fitted in one aircraft? If yes then just how much bigger the plane has to be in order to have two engines? Just tell me the name of an existing bigger plane and I will know the size.



As big as chinese J 10,probabily...


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## thesolar65

gslv mk3 said:


> As big as chinese J 10,probabily...



No no not Chinese, any other name?


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## gslv mk3

thesolar65 said:


> No no not Chinese, any other name?



Dassault Rafale...

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## Hulk

thesolar65 said:


> I am not an aircraft expert, but an elect. engg. I know that kaveri engine has failed to be installed in LCA for the want of required power. But just for knowledge can somebody clarify if two kaveri engines can be fitted in one aircraft? If yes then just how much bigger the plane has to be in order to have two engines? Just tell me the name of an existing bigger plane and I will know the size.



A scientist who was part of Kaveri team was my Boss, he is still in same company as me but different project. He was damn workaholic and my wife was fed-up with him because he use to call me very late in night as well.

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## thesolar65

indianrabbit said:


> A scientist who was part of Kaveri team was my Boss, he is still in same company as me but different project. He was damn workaholic and my wife was fed-up with him because he use to call me very late in night as well.



Well your reply does not answer my question!!


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## Hulk

thesolar65 said:


> Well your reply does not answer my question!!


SU-30 maybe.

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## MilSpec

thesolar65 said:


> I am not an aircraft expert, but an elect. engg. I know that kaveri engine has failed to be installed in LCA for the want of required power. But just for knowledge can somebody clarify if two kaveri engines can be fitted in one aircraft? If yes then just how much bigger the plane has to be in order to have two engines? Just tell me the name of an existing bigger plane and I will know the size.



Size wise GTX-35VS engine is very similar to M88 snecma, f404/414, Klimov RD33 (slightly longer), EJ200, TU B199-104

GTX - 35VS Kaveri - L> 3490 mm D> 910 mm
M88 - Snecma L> 3,538 mm D> 900 mm
GE F404/414 L> 3912 mm D> 889 mm
Klimov RD33 L>4,229 mm D> 1,000 mm
Eurojet EJ200 L> 4000 mm D> 737 mm
TU RB199-104 L> 3607 mm D> 719 mm


Hence Aircrafts the size of Mig 29, EFT, Rafale, F/A18H and SH, Panavia Tornado, can theoretically house twin GTRX Kaveri engines

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## thesolar65

sandy_3126 said:


> Size wise GTX-35VS engine is very similar to M88 snecma, f404/414, Klimov RD33 (slightly longer)
> 
> GTX - 35VS Kaveri - L> 3490 mm D> 910 mm
> M88 - Snecma L> 3,538 mm D> 900 mm
> GE F404/414 L> 3912 mm D> 889 mm
> Klimov RD33 L>4,229 mm D> 1,000 mm
> Eurojet EJ200 L> 4000 mm D> 737 mm
> 
> 
> 
> Hence Aircrafts the size of Mig 29, EFT, Rafale, F/A18H and SH, can theoretically house twin GTRX Kaveri engines



The answer is helpful from layman's point of view.


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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> Sancho you should know by now that Tejas is just copy of anything that flies.



Of course I know, infact I am just trying to help, because having said that the engine is US, they now can start the next round of claims, LCA not being indigenous. 

We have heared it all before, right?

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## Sergi

@sancho : One wild question. Can we come up with something like "Rafute pylons" ( the one you posted in MMRCA thread and ifI remember the name correctly ) to overcome low loading configuration of LCA in struck role ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho : One wild question. Can we come up with something like "Rafute pylons" ( the one you posted in MMRCA thread and ifI remember the name correctly ) to overcome low loading configuration of LCA in struck role ???



Developing multi pylons is possible of course, but it is dependent on the space you have between the fuel tank and the IR missile, but at least a twin pylon like the Mirage 2000 will have, should be possible:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130502/lgu3s5az.jpg


Twin pylons for AAMs are possible too, but not very useful, since they add drag and increase the RCS, compared to using 2 missiles on 2 hardpoints. And in most cases you can only carry the same weapons on these pylons not mixed configurations.
More useful is freeing hardpoints by integrating more fuel, either in the internal fuel tanks or with CFTs and a crucial point will be, how much more fuel the MK2 will carry in future?

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## subincb

LCA-Tejas has completed* 2139 *Test Flights Successfully. (27-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-262,PV5-36,LSP3-123,LSP4-72,LSP5-166,LSP7-34,NP1-4,*LSP8-2*)

LCA-Tejas has completed *2146 *Test Flights Successfully. (04-May-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-262,PV5-36,*LSP3-126*,LSP4-72,*LSP5-168*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,*LSP8-4*)

LSP - 8 seems to have started tests again

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## Nishan_101

I respect everyone, just wanted to say that as MRCA deal is not done and DRDO's chief visited Grippen NG
I am sure that IAF will see some grippen as well.


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## rockstarIN

Nishan_101 said:


> I respect everyone, just wanted to say that as MRCA deal is not done and DRDO's chief visited Grippen NG
> I am sure that IAF will see some grippen as well.


Visits to other facilities is not rare. How many fighter jet making countries/facilities are there in the world? LM, Boeing, Euro Consortium, French & Russian industry besides Sweden. Nothing to feel doubtful about it.

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## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> I respect everyone, just wanted to say that as MRCA deal is not done and *DRDO's chief* visited Grippen NG
> I am sure that *IAF will see some* grippen as well.



The DRDO Chief has nothing to decide in IAF.

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## Nishan_101

So is there any chance after 200+MRCA deal being cancelled that IAF will see some additional 60-80 MiG-35 along with EF-2000s and Rafaels....


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## rockstarIN

Nishan_101 said:


> So is there any chance after 200+MRCA deal being cancelled that IAF will see some additional 60-80 MiG-35 along with EF-2000s and Rafaels....



Wait for cancellation news first then


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## Nishan_101

rockstar said:


> Wait for cancellation news first then



Got it. Sir, I know that Indian people are excited about the MiG-35 along with EF-2000s and Rafaels...


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## Sergi

Nishan_101 said:


> Got it. Sir, I know that Indian people are excited about the MiG-35 along with EF-2000s and Rafaels...



Dude !!!! What's wrong with you ??? Yu have 2000+ posts and still
Every time I see your post it is always "*xxxx is buying xxxxx from xxxxx *" are you a girl fond of shopping ???

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## Nishan_101

Not like that... But there seems to be something which we all don't know...


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## Hobo1

I have just few days back came to Banglaore. Yesterday i heard lot of sonic boom , saw a fighter making loops. i actually only managed to see the tail of fighter. If i am not wrong i hope what i saw was Tejas.
It seems like my first sighting of Tejas.

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2146 Test Flights Successfully. (04-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-262,PV5-36,LSP3-126,LSP4-72,LSP5-168,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2152 Test Flights Successfully. (06-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-264,*PV5-36,*LSP3-127,LSP4-74,**LSP5-169*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)


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## sancho

LCA MK2 if it had a Gripen NG redesign with moved gear bays and additional hardpoints:

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> LCA MK2 if it had a Gripen NG redesign with moved gear bays and additional hardpoints:



And what are the chances of that "if" ???
I think "they should" add at least one more hard point


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> And what are the chances of that "if" ???
> I think "they should" add at least one more hard point



Sadly next to zero, since they went for more complicated and less useful changes (lenghtening the airframe and fuselage, to integrate more fuel tanks). The only hope then is, that the increase of internal fuel is enough to replace the wing fueltanks at least in some missions with light loads, which then frees hardpoints, otherwise it always will need dedicated escorts.

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## fatman17

*Indian Navy Tejas Has Not Flown Since July 2012*


Posted on: May 7th, 2013

Indian Navy Tejas Light Combat Aircraft two-seat trainer KHN-T-3001 (NP-1) makes its maiden flight from the
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) facility at Bangalore on April 27, 2012. After three further flights, it was grounded in
July 2012 for modifications and to date has still not been reflown. Sanjay Simha


DELAYS ARE continuing to plague development of the Indian Navy variant of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft
(LCA), the prototype of which has been grounded since July 2012. The aircraft, two-seat trainer version KHN-T-
3001 (NP-1), had finally made its maiden flight from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) facility at Bangalore on
April 27, 2012. This took place more than 21 months after it had been rolled out of the factory there on July 6,
2010.

Following its maiden flight, the prototype undertook only three further flights before it was grounded in July 2012
whilst a number of problems were rectified. According to local media reports, these include some modifications to
the undercarriage and a number of the aircraft&#8217;s systems. The naval variant differs from the Air Force Tejas in
having a new, extended and strengthened undercarriage, plus an arrestor hook, to cater for carrier take-offs and
landings. Other differences include a drooped nose to improve visibility and a leading edge vortex controller to
enable lower speed carrier approaches.

According to the most recent figures, released yesterday by India&#8217;s Aeronautical Development Agency, which is
responsible for development of the Tejas, the development aircraft have to date completed 2,152 test flights.

These comprise 233 by KH2001 (TD-1), 305 by KH2002 (TD-2), 242 by KH2003 (PV-1), 222 by KH2004 (PV-2),
364 by KH2005 (PV-3), 74 by KH2011 (LSP-1, ex KH2006), 264 by KH2012 (LSP-2, ex KH2007), 36 by KHT2009
(PV-5), 127 by KH2013 (LSP-3), 74 by KH2014 (LSP-4), 169 by KH2015 (LSP-5), 34 by KH2017 (LSP-7),
four by KH-2018 (LSP-8) and four by KHN-T3001 (NP-1). 

AFD-Dave Allport


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## S-DUCT

LCA Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed *2152* Test Flights Successfully. (06-May-2013). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-264,PV5-36,*LSP3-127*,LSP4-74,LSP5-169,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to 

LCA-Tejas has completed *2153* Test Flights Successfully. (08-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-264,PV5-36,*LSP3-128*,LSP4-74,LSP5-169,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)


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## Srinivas

S-DUCT said:


> LCA Flight test update
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed *2152* Test Flights Successfully. (06-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-264,PV5-36,*LSP3-127*,LSP4-74,LSP5-169,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed *2153* Test Flights Successfully. (08-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-264,PV5-36,*LSP3-128*,LSP4-74,LSP5-169,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)




You are correct!!!!

I have seen LCA flying this week.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*NLCA engineer-in-loop sim*

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## S-DUCT

Some updates on Naval-Lca program.

1)NP-1 will be ready again for flight test in mid-june.
2)SBTF facility is near completed at INS hanse and it'll be used to train Mig-29K and N-LCA for carrier operations.
3)N-LCA MK2 will roll out in 2016 and will be readied for carrier trials in 2017-18.

Image credit:SagarAG @BRF

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## sudhir007

So the naval testing platform is rady for NLCA


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## Capt.Popeye

sudhir007 said:


> So the naval testing platform is rady for NLCA



Smart!! But the ramp (that is visible) is just part of it. The other part is the arrestor wire assembly. In any case that project of the SBTF is well on track then.


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> 3)N-LCA MK2 will roll out in 2016 and *will be readied for carrier trials in 2017-18*.



Doubtful, N-LCA MK2 is based on the LCA MK2 changes and even IAF will only able to induct the MK2s in 2018/19, so how should an N-LCA MK2 be ready anywere close to that date? More likely as of today is something beyond 2020. Which shows how little sense this fighter makes in operational terms. Too late for our first 2 carriers, not capable enough for the threats at that time.


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## S-DUCT

sancho said:


> Doubtful, N-LCA MK2 is based on the LCA MK2 changes and even IAF will only able to induct the MK2s in 2018/19, so how should an N-LCA MK2 be ready anywere close to that date? More likely as of today is something beyond 2020. Which shows how little sense this fighter makes in operational terms. Too late for our first 2 carriers, not capable enough for the threats at that time.


I had the same doubt too,but maybe they are working in parallel with better management to complete both AF and Navy requirements.Since LCA NP1 & NP2 is powered by GE-404-IN20 engine,it will be only be certified for SBYF operation.LCA Navy will be certified for carrier operations using two aircraft (NP3 & NP4) built in the Tejas Mk2 configuration, powered by GE-414-INS6 engine with a max thrust of 98KN.LCA NP-3 will start trials on Carrier in somewhere between 2017-2018 and becoming fully operation in 2020.


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> I had the same doubt too,but maybe they are working in parallel with better management to complete both AF and Navy requirements.Since LCA NP1 & NP2 is powered by GE-404-IN20 engine,it will be only be certified for SBYF operation.LCA Navy will be certified for carrier operations using two aircraft (NP3 & NP4) built in the Tejas Mk2 configuration, powered by GE-414-INS6 engine with a max thrust of 98KN.LCA NP-3 will start trials on Carrier in somewhere between 2017-2018 and becoming fully operation in 2020.]


The way things are planned in this project, I don't put too much hope in improvements in this field, especially since not even the basics changes of the IAF MK2 are fixed yet.


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## S-DUCT

sancho said:


> The way things are planned in this project, I don't put too much hope in improvements in this field, especially since not even the basics changes of the IAF MK2 are fixed yet.


I thought ADA has freezed the design 2-3 months ago.Have i missed something.?


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> I thought ADA has freezed the design 2-3 months ago.Have i missed something.?



Did you ever have seen a design including IRST? Will the AESA be ready, what about the new fuel tanks and avionics? What about weight and drag reductions? Still some work to do to make all the modifications and changes, which then again needs to be diverted to the N-LCA design too, that btw still is not finished (no hook attached, LEVCONs operational, reduction of gear weight...). Oh and don't forget the embarrassment of ADA that they have request for external designers for a new radome design, which also is not available in the current designs.


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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> *NLCA engineer-in-loop sim*



This cockpit looks VERY different to the LCA MK1, is this the confirmed design or just a test layout?

MK1 cockpit for comparison's sake:

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## selvan33

Abingdonboy said:


> This cockpit looks VERY different to the LCA MK1, is this the confirmed design or just a test layout?
> 
> MK1 cockpit for comparison's sake:











This is the LSP8 cockpit i think. 






but Above posted model looks damn sexy.


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## IndianArmy

Abingdonboy said:


> This cockpit looks VERY different to the LCA MK1, is this the confirmed design or just a test layout?



I dont think this would the final design as the Head up display is missing. So lets just assume that it is a dummy model for simulation.


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## Abingdonboy

IndianArmy said:


> I dont think this would the final design as the Head up display is missing. So lets just assume that it is a dummy model for simulation.



In this case the HUD imagery is displayed on the screen in front- many such sims do this and don't have physical functioning HUDs.

But I aggree that we can't take much from this.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This cockpit looks VERY different to the LCA MK1, is this the confirmed design or just a test layout?



LCA MK2 / N-LCA MK2 cockpit, is about to get new displays and avionics? 














> Key features:
> 
> - advanced glass cockpit with high performance graphics...

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> LCA MK2 / N-LCA MK2 cockpit, is about to get new displays and avionics?



I had heard that ADA were interested in getting a NG cockpit like COCKPIT-NG:








The above illustration shows slightly larger MFDs with better resolution. I guess the final design is still unknown.

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## selvan33

Abingdonboy said:


> I had heard that ADA were interested in getting a NG cockpit like COCKPIT-NG:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above illustration shows slightly larger MFDs with better resolution. I guess the final design is still unknown.



That elbit's NG cockpit DAMN sexy. And i this the Chinese NG ICS which i like very much.


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## Abingdonboy

selvan33 said:


> That elbit's NG cockpit DAMN sexy. And i this the Chinese NG ICS which i like very much.



That is a nice looking mock-up.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I had heard that ADA were interested in getting a NG cockpit like COCKPIT-NG:
> The above illustration shows slightly larger MFDs with better resolution. I guess the final design is still unknown.



ADA and DRDO have many dreams, but that doesn't mean they are useful or doable. For LCA MK2 not even the new MFDs are needed, but it's a modernisation as a result of the delays of the LCA project. The singlescreen display is only useful and realistic in FGFA and later in AMCA.
I think the new MFDs will be comparable to those that we use in MKI now or that we will use in Super 30 with the next upgrader. However, I would have prefered more hardpoints, since that really would have made LCA more capable.

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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> That is a nice looking mock-up.



Yes. Plywood, laminate and plastic.

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2153 Test Flights Successfully. (08-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-264,PV5-36,LSP3-128,LSP4-74,LSP5-169,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2161 Test Flights Successfully. (14-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-267*,PV5-36,*LSP3-130*,LSP4-74,*LSP5-172*,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

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## S-DUCT

These shots are from suraksha-2013.Can anyone id these three LCA variants.
Right-one:LCA NAVY
Middle-one:???
Left-one:???


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## Beerbal

S-DUCT said:


> These shots are from suraksha-2013.Can anyone id these three LCA variants.
> Right-one:LCA NAVY
> Middle-one:???
> Left-one:???





Left: IAF LCA
Middle: NAVAL LCA
Right one LCA Twin Seater trainer

How I identified?

1. Midle one has LREX (which N-LCA has)
2. Right one has lengthy cockpit which is to accomodate 2 pilots (trainer and trainee)
3. Left one is left, which is IAF LCA 

What is on the other side? Is it AMCA??? Dimond shaped wing (like F23 )

.
.
In second Pic you can see the tail, Its written NAVY one N-LCA tail..

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## S-DUCT

Beerbal said:


> Left: IAF LCA
> Middle: NAVAL LCA
> Right one LCA Twin Seater trainer
> 
> How I identified?
> 
> 1. Midle one has LREX (which N-LCA has)
> 2. Right one has lengthy cockpit which is to accomodate 2 pilots (trainer and trainee)
> 3. Left one is left, which is IAF LCA
> 
> What is on the other side?* Is it AMCA??? Dimond shaped wing (like F23 )*
> 
> .
> .
> In second Pic you can see the tail, Its written NAVY one N-LCA tail..


Thanks bro.
Yeah,It's AMCA's latest design.Earlier,this design was shown in AI-2013.


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## sudhir007

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2161 Test Flights Successfully. (14-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-267,PV5-36,LSP3-130,LSP4-74,LSP5-172,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

To
LCA-Tejas has completed 2164 Test Flights Successfully. (17-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-269*,PV5-36,LSP3-130,LSP4-74,LSP5-172,*LSP7-35*,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

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## BlueDot_in_Space

work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)


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## SR-91

> BlueDot_in_Space said:
> 
> 
> 
> work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)
Click to expand...


What are the current figures buddy?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

SR-91 said:


> What are the current figures buddy?



AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g

LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.

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## Beerbal

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
> g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g
> 
> LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.





Some one once told, defense equipment are not build, They evolve...

Some one tell this to Sancho.. He is die-hard critic of LCA and Kaveri..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

*LSP6 AOA indicator specs:*

Angle of Attack Indicator shall indicate the angle of attack in degrees in the range of -90° to +90°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -10° to +20°, the amber band shall indicate in the range of +20° to +30° & -10° to -15° and the red band shall indicate +30° to +90° & -15° to -90°.

*LSP6 AOSS indicator specs:*

Angle of Side Slip Indicator shall indicate the angle of side slip in degrees in the range of -
25° to +25°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -5° to +5°, the amber band shall
indicate in the range of +5° to +10° & -5° to -10° and the red band shall indicate +10° to
+25° & -10° to -25°.

Severity Tests:

*Test type * |||||||| *Severity*
Rapid Decompression |||||||| From 23000 ft (7 km) to 60000ft (18 km) in 15 sec, Hold for 10 min at 60000ft.

Acceleration &#8211;functional |||||||| 10 &#8216;g&#8217; in all 6 directions

Acceleration &#8211; structural ||||||| 15 &#8217;g&#8217; in all 6 directions

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2161 Test Flights Successfully. (14-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-267,PV5-36,LSP3-130,LSP4-74,LSP5-172,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2174 Test Flights Successfully. (25-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-273*,PV5-36,*LSP3-132,LSP4-76*,LSP5-172,*LSP7-37*,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

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## Beerbal

sudhir007 said:


> LCA Flight test update
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2161 Test Flights Successfully. (14-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-267,PV5-36,LSP3-130,LSP4-74,LSP5-172,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2174 Test Flights Successfully. (25-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,*LSP2-273*,PV5-36,*LSP3-132,LSP4-76*,LSP5-172,*LSP7-37*,NP1-4,LSP8-4)






So yesterday these guys were hovering over Marthahalli.. (Blr)


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## Manticore

April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably. The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.

This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.

The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.

India And The Tejas Tragedy
Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy


----------



## gslv mk3

ANTIBODY said:


> April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably. The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.
> 
> This was not the first major failure for the LCA. *Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA.* After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.
> 
> *The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced.* At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. *The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.
> *
> The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.
> 
> There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, *it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990.* A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.
> 
> For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.
> 
> India And The Tejas Tragedy
> Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy



Come on man..Thats seriously a lot of BS


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## satishkumarcsc

gslv mk3 said:


> Come on man..Thats seriously a lot of BS



What else do you expect from strategy page?

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## rockstarIN

> This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2UfSDrR7p



Admitted defeat..lol, I win..you lose(where is the declaration of defeat)...reminding me the last scene of 'three idiot'

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## Beerbal

> The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2UfmTgfV8






Because Kaveri didn't meet the (manipulated/exagarated) requirement, LCA is failure.... Nice analysis... Hats off to this analysis..

The Truth: 
1. Why Kaveri? coz in 80s (in planning phase of LCA) no one was ready to sell engines to India (remember how Marut died?).
2. What is Kaveri? Its just one of many component of LCA, If it fails doesn't mean project fail.

.
.
.
Look like the analysis is done by official LCA troll of PDF.. (No offence intended)

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## gslv mk3

Beerbal said:


> Because Kaveri didn't meet the (manipulated/exagarated) requirement, LCA is failure.... Nice analysis... Hats off to this analysis..
> 
> The Truth:
> 1. Why Kaveri? coz in 80s (in planning phase of LCA) no one was ready to sell engines to India (remember how Marut died?).
> 2. What is Kaveri? Its just one of many component of LCA, If it fails doesn't mean project fail.
> 
> .
> .
> .
> Look like the analysis is done by official LCA troll of PDF.. (No offence intended)



And India ordered *GE F404 *and not FE 414...*Epic Fail*!!

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## Beerbal

gslv mk3 said:


> And India ordered *GE F404 *and not FE 414...*Epic Fail*!!



Misinformed Expert

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. 

India ordered 99 American Engines (GE414 IN) few year ago, not several year ago. Indian ordered 10-20 GE 404 several year ago (for LSP and TDs).. The GE404 engine was ordered in phase (I recall one official saying, "Its better to buy the engine on demand rather than buying and storing it in stock"). 

Can any one tell me if the price quoted is correct??? (8.1 million)..


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## gslv mk3

@Beerbal

India ordered FE404 for use in TDs,and then the Kaveri program was officialy detached from LCA project after it failed high altitude tests(back in 2007 if I am right) and decision was taken to go ahead with FE404 for mk1

The decision to go for FE 414 for mk2 was taken only one or two years ago..

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## sudhir007

Final Operational Clearance for LCA TEJAS Next Year: Antony | idrw.org

The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today expressed optimism that the country&#8217;s indigenously developed fighter aircraft- LCA TEJAS- will get Final Operational Clearance of the Indian Air Force by the end of next year. Speaking at the Annual Awards Functions of DRDO here, he said, all stakeholders including the DRDO, IAF and HAL must put their energy together in a focused manner to achieve this objective.

Shri Antony said countries that depend on imported arsenals cannot become great nation. Shri Antony said we continue to be the largest importer of Defence equipment. The share of indigenous content in Defence procurement is low. &#8220;Our experience has been that foreign vendors are reluctant to part with critical technologies. There are delays in the supply of essential spares. There are exorbitant price increases. The Services too realize that we cannot be eternally dependent on foreign equipment and platforms&#8221;, he said.

Referring to the expansions of domestic defence industry, Shri Antony said this has to be achieved through public and private sector initiatives. He said there is ample scope for joint ventures also. &#8220;All the stakeholders in the defence sector- DRDO, Armed Forces and the industry must work in tandem and develop trust and confidence in each other&#8217;s capabilities.&#8221; Cautioning against time and cost over runs in projects Shri Antony said Indian Companies must compete with global players in developing state- of- the art technologies of acceptable commercial parameters and must meet customer satisfaction.

The Minister complimented DRDO for their magnificent achievements in 2012. He referred to the first flight of Agni-V, two successful tests of our Ballistic Missile Defence programme in February and November 2012, first flight of LCA Navy, establishment of a cyber-forensics laboratory, initiation of production of NBC systems, ToT for composite armour for helicopters and investment casting of aero engine components and said these are just some of the many accomplishments.

He, however, asked the scientists not to be complacent. &#8220;The DRDO must keep its focus trained on the areas of core competence and not fritter away its energy and resources. In today&#8217;s world of cut-throat competition, the choice is very clear-&#8216;perform, or perish&#8217;. From designing stage to the stage of final production, timelines must be strictly adhered to and satisfaction of the end user is the litmus test of achievement&#8221;, he said.

He said, the security environment in our neighbourhood; civil strife and turmoil in the Middle East; terrorism and threats to cyber security; piracy; illegal seabed mining in Indian Ocean and space-based threats present complex challenges to our defence capabilities. These require both conventional, as well as latest technological responses.

Expressing happiness the Minister said, it is heartening to note that a large number of major systems are under production and the cumulative production value of all the DRDO developed systems has crossed Rs. 1,55,000 crore. &#8216;I am sure in the coming years, this figure will go even higher. DRDO must make relentless efforts to accelerate the pace of self- reliance&#8217;, he further said.

The function was attended among others by the Minister of State for Defence, Shri Jitendra Singh, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral DK Joshi and Director General DRDO Dr. VK Saraswat.

On the occasion, Shri Antony gave away DRDO Awards to several scientists, technologists and DRDO laboratories in fourteen categories for their outstanding contributions in different areas.

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## sancho

> He, however, asked the scientists not to be complacent. &#8220;*The DRDO must keep its focus trained on the areas of core competence and not fritter away its energy and resources*. In today&#8217;s world of cut-throat competition, the choice is very clear-&#8216;perform, or perish&#8217;. From designing stage to the stage of final production, timelines must be strictly adhered to and satisfaction of the end user is the litmus test of achievement&#8221;, he said.



That's the point for the whole Indian industry and only then we will improve our capabilities!

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2174 Test Flights Successfully. (25-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,LSP4-76,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2178 Test Flights Successfully. (28-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,LSP4-79,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

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## S-DUCT

sudhir007 said:


> LCA Flight test update
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2174 Test Flights Successfully. (25-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-364*,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,*LSP4-76*,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2178 Test Flights Successfully. (28-May-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-365*,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132*,LSP4-79*,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)


Changes are now highlighted.


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## nair

*Tejas will not be ready for war before end-2015*

NEW DELHI: Defence minister A K Antony last week expressed the hope that the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft would finally get the final operational clearance (FOC) next year. But a hard-nosed ``internal assessment'' shows Antony's dream will be shattered. 

The single-engine Tejas, already 30 years in the making, will not become fully combat-worthy anytime before end-2015. "The reality is that the around dozen Tejas prototypes are barely flying a couple of sorties a day. The initial operational clearance ( IOC)-II has again already been pushed to November this year from the earlier June-July deadline. It will take at least 18 months from IOC-II to FOC,'' said a source. 

In fact, the foremost challenge before the new DRDO chief-cum-scientific advisor to the defence minister, missile scientist Avinash Chander, is to ensure the long-running, meandering Tejas project firmly heads towards completion because it's absolutely critical for India to have its own home-grown fighter. 

The Tejas LCA project was first sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s. The overall programme will now cost upwards of Rs 25,000 crore if the naval variant, trainer and the failed Kaveri engine are also taken into account. 

It was in January 2011 that Tejas got IOC-I, which was initially heralded as the ``full and final IOC'' by the combine of DRDO, Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd till better sense prevailed. The fighter can be certified as fully airworthy only after it passes the IOC-II stage. 

But there are still ``*several basic problems'' &#8212; leave alone complex issues &#8212; that continue to dog the fighter despite it having clocked over 2,000 flights. ``Tejas still cannot taxi back after a sortie since its brakes have to be first cooled with compressed air. It has major fuel gauge inaccuracies. Moreover, its radome (radar cover) is defective with large electromagnetic signal losses,''* said another source. 

The light-weight Tejas will be ready to go to war only after the FOC, which will include integration of all weapons and other systems to ensure it can fire guns, rockets, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as undergo air-to-air refuelling. 

IAF has earmarked the Sulur airbase in Tamil Nadu, near the Bengaluru HAL facilities where the fighter is being built, to house the initial Tejas squadron inducted in the IOC-II configuration to resolve ``the expected teething problems''. 

The force has so far ordered 20 Tejas in IOC-II configuration, with the American GE-404 engines, and another 20 in FOC. As per current plans, IAF will order six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16 to 18 jets each), with the more powerful GE F-414 engines, once the fighter is combat-ready.

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## sancho

nair said:


> Moreover, its radome (radar cover) is defective with large electromagnetic signal losses,''[/B] said another source



Which would explain the competition for a new radome design, but is another blow for ADA/DRDO too. 



nair said:


> The light-weight Tejas will be ready to go to war only after the FOC, which will include integration of all weapons and other systems to ensure it can fire guns, rockets, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles *as well as undergo air-to-air refuelling. *



So mid air refuelling from LCA MK1 FOC standard, not only MK2.

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## sudhir007

flight update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2182 Test Flights Successfully. (31-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-133,LSP4-80,LSP5-173,LSP7-38,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2185 Test Flights Successfully. (05-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-134*,LSP4-80,*LSP5-174,LSP7-39*,NP1-4,LSP8-4)


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## shree835

*QRT to achieve IOC-2 in four months for Tejas*

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief Avinash Chander conducted a day-long review of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme on Friday. To pull out the programme from delays, the DRDO chief has now decided to form a quick reaction team (QRT) for achieving the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) by September this year.

The missile man said that the country&#8217;s long-awaited dream to have a desi-built fighter jet officially don the Squadron colours is now at a striking distance.

&#8220;I have not come to Bangalore with a magic wand. I wanted to see that the design agency (Aeronautical Development Agency) and the production unit (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) work closely to see that IOC-2 is achieved at the earliest. The QRT is being formed to handle all concerns without any more delays,&#8221; Chander told Express.

Confirming that the project has entered the IOC-2 mission mode, Chander said that HAL and ADA are left with no option but to sit together and sort out all issues across the table.

&#8220;I told both teams that they will have to be like battlefield soldiers. They will have to anticipate the problems and be alert all the time. I am a strong believer in transparent action and ADA will spearhead the QRT with efficient members drawn from all constituents of Tejas project,&#8221; the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister said.

He said the idea of QRT was to ensure that no Tejas aircraft from the current test line should be idle for want of attention, a term technically called as AOG (Aircraft on Ground). He said a Chief Controller at the DRDO HQ would monitor the progress of Tejas as it achieves IOC-2. &#8220;I have decided to make available all knowledgeable resources in DRDO so that the September deadline is met,&#8221; he said.

Satisfied with the new production facilities being set up in HAL for Tejas, Avinash said the jig fixtures and documentation process are almost in place.

&#8220;HAL is definitely making an effort to improve their processes. I saw a commitment from both ADA and HAL to step up their work philosophies and approach in dealing with delays. It took 30 years for Akash Missile Systems to be inducted but today we have a work order worth Rs 30,000 crore. Technologies need to matured, and there&#8217;s no short-cut to it,&#8221; he said.

When asked about the widespread allegation and media reports that cracks have already appeared in ADA-HAL combine, the DRDO boss said: &#8220;So far, I have been making missiles to destroy aircraft. And, now I am focusing on technologies to make an aircraft fly the fighter way, even evading the missiles. Let me stay focused. Problems are there, but we need to overcome them.&#8221;

'QRT to achieve IOC-2 in four months for Tejas' - The New Indian Express

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## Water Car Engineer

TRISHUL: Demanding The Impossible

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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> TRISHUL: Demanding The Impossible



The usual nonsense, he didn't even understand that Antony supported IAF and the Air Chiefs statements, with his own once and that the aim was to put more pressure on DRDO. So these lenghtly article completely missed the topic and actually have no value at all, the random use of pics, even though they have no importance to the article shows that as well.

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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> The usual nonsense, he didn't even understand that Antony supported IAF and the Air Chiefs statements, with his own once and that the aim was to put more pressure on DRDO. So these lenghtly article completely missed the topic and actually have no value at all, the random use of pics, even though they have no importance to the article shows that as well.



I pretty much never read his entries, but I like the pics he shows.

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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> I pretty much never read his entries, but I like the pics he shows.



True, the access to infos he has is interesting, but the conclusions he gets are weird.

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## shree835

*New DRDO Chief pushes emergency button on Project Tejas*

The DRDO&#8217;s new Director General, Dr Avinash Chander, has activated Code Red on Project Tejas, and has called for an immediate emergency plan to get the lumbering programme back on track. Top sources at DRDO and the Aeronautical Development Agency informed SP&#8217;s that Dr Chander, over the last three days, has held video-conference discussions with all top scientists and visited Bangalore for one-on-one meetings with the team leading the second phase of the initial operational clearance (IOC-2) mission. Things have been distinctly difficult for the programme over the last two years. Following IOC-1 in January 2011, it has been slow-moving.

On May 29, two days before Dr Chander took over as his scientific advisor, Defence Minister A.K. Antony declared that the Tejas would, at all costs, be delivered to the IAF by the end of next year, fully certified and cleared by all agencies concerned. That one announcement has put a huge amount of pressure on the new DRDO Chief, who is now understood to have put together a team of eight persons, including two of his own appointees, to oversee on literally a day-to-day basis functional progress on the Tejas programme, including all aspects of certification and compliance. Dr Chander, sources say, will receive an official update either verbally or in report form every alternate day to keep himself abreast of what he considers to be the most crucial and pressing programme in the DRDO pipeline.

A top official of Dr Chander&#8217;s newly formed team informed SP&#8217;s, &#8221;The other programmes are progressing satisfactorily. The LCA requires special attention. It is for this reason that Dr Chander felt the need to allocate additional resources to supervise this final stretch of the prestigious project. We will be giving it our all to deliver a fine fighter to the customer.&#8221; Dr Chander&#8217;s team will similarly continue and oversee the Tejas Mk.2 programme once the Mk.2 final operational clearance is in the bag.


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## Storm Force

Bloody hell I love the pictures of tejas x two. Stunning


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## rockstarIN




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## rockstarIN



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## S-DUCT

Livefist: First LCA Tejas Mk.2 Prototype Next Year?


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## omkar

As the LCA Tejas Mk.1 fights through its crucial final stretch, it has been revealed that the first Mk.2 prototype is likely to be rolled out next year. As part of its effort to identify and certify LRUs for the improved combat jet, HAL has declared on April 9 to prospective development partners/suppliers of a hydraulic pump: "HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and qualification of certain LRUs required for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first prototype aircraft is slated for built during 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for inducting to fleet which is stated to be taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards." (sic)






HAL suggests here that series production of the Mk.2 commences in 2016 -- that'll be bare months after the Mk.1 enters squadron service with the IAF, so I'm inclined see this as typical HAL/DRDO optimism, especially given that there's substantial work that needs doing on the Mk.2, not least airframe/fuselage changes to house and operate the new F414-GE-INS6 turbofan and allow higher performance requirements.


Livefist: First LCA Tejas Mk.2 Prototype Next Year?

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## Tshering22

Just disband HAL and ADA.

Auction them off to private investors.

Change the structure before trying anything new.

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## Jayanta

And the dates will be revised again and again....bole to "Tarikh pe tarikh".

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## Beerbal

Tshering22 said:


> Just disband HAL and ADA.
> Auction them off to private investors.
> Change the structure before trying anything new.




Or Plan B:
Just put honest politicians and honest generals...

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## IND151

I hope the OP is right

Mk2 needs to be in IAF as soon as possible

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## Safriz

India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas

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## Sri

Hi,
Prasun da has mentioned that the the Helmet integrate is ELBIT Systems-built TARGO HMDS. Earlier reports were DASH. Can anyone let us know which one is integrated? Also please let us know about TARGO HMDS as little info is available on this HMDS.
TX


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## IND151

^^ Project Devil was complete failure.

Had we given up the efforts to develop missiles, what would be the situation today?

Tejas is very important, unless we learn to build a 4th gen fighter on our own(even without having indigenous engine) we can't move to 4.75th, 5th gen fighters and AURA

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## Manindra

Tshering22 said:


> Just disband HAL and ADA.
> 
> Auction them off to private investors.
> 
> Change the structure before trying anything new.



Brother process begin , just hold your breath. Result would show slowly
Centre approves 10 % disinvestment in HAL | The Hindu


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## DANGER-ZONE

What is the need of opening new thread, same news is posted in LCA Sticky and thats the place for all LCA related news ..... @nuclearpak would you be kind enough to merge the thread.


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## gslv mk3

Dreamreaper said:


> India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
> Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that *plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas*



Mate you are a JR.Think Tank,start acting like one

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## faithfulguy

talking about MK2 is a ploy to cover up for more delays coming for LCA. Will LCA be ready by 2016 or 2017 this time?


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## AADHAAR

IND151 said:


> I hope the OP is right
> 
> Mk2 needs to be in IAF as soon as possible



I too consider this to be a very positive news ... Mk-2 is moving ahead. 

There is always scope of improvement - but DRDO has its own set of achievements - and Tejas is definitely one of time. 

India leapfrogged in a whole range of advanced technologies in the last 2-3 decades (which wasn't the case from 1950s to 1970s) - aircraft engines (Kaveri), 4.5 gen combat aircraft (Tejas), advanced 3rd gen MBT (Arjun), highly accurate and long range missiles (.. a whole lot, but including Akash, Agni series etc), nuclear submarine (Arihant) .... quite a formidable list.

Thumbs up from my side.

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## Abingdonboy

Lol at all you guys calling the LCA A failure and whatever. From where India has come from ie ZERO to where it is today is simply night and day. Today India truly is one of the leaders of the aerospace industry- no one will question this if they know what they are talking about. Very few nations have the capacity and capability to have done what India has done under the time it has with the challenges it has faced (sanctions, low funding levels, non-exstent technical base etc). Even if today India is not where everyone would ideally like it to be, the only way is up now- the sky's the limit!!


The foundation India now has will only pay dividends in the coming years/decade. 



Everyone has to start somewhere- if it were easy, everyone would do it!! 


The good thing about a first project is you only have to do it once.

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## OrionHunter

Tshering22 said:


> Just disband HAL and ADA.
> 
> Auction them off to private investors.


It's best to gift them to Pakistan or China. That's one way we can win a future war!!


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## janon

Dreamreaper said:


> India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
> Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas



We have already committed 30 billion dollars for the FGFA program over the next several years, with 5-6 billion dollars at the initial stage itself. How much more should we commit? What magic would the paltry 1 billion or so diverted from the tejas program do to accelerate the FGFA, that the 30 billion would not?

Succesfully completing the Tejas program will ensure that Rafale will be the last foreign fighter that India purchases, with no design share of its own. If we abandon Tejas, we will forever be dependent on foreign aircrafts, which does not go well with India's ambitions.

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## PANTHERA TIGRIS

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol at all you guys calling the LCA A failure and whatever. From where India has come from ie ZERO to where it is today is simply night and day. Today India truly is one of the leaders of the aerospace industry- no one will question this if they know what they are talking about. Very few nations have the capacity and capability to have done what India has done under the time it has with the challenges it has faced (sanctions, low funding levels, non-exstent technical base etc). Even if today India is not where everyone would ideally like it to be, the only way is up now- the sky's the limit!!
> 
> 
> The foundation India now has will only pay dividends in the coming years/decade.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has to start somewhere- if it were easy, everyone would do it!!
> 
> 
> The good thing about a first project is you only have to do it once.



we should show support to all hard workers in HAL-ADA , who could leave the country and join some rich paying company but rather chose to work for their nation , even then having to listen to our ungrateful chatter !

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## veekysingh

keep it up guys keep it up , our wishes are with u.


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## gslv mk3

qamar1990 said:


> what did he say that was wrong?
> or fcukin retarded or something? he simply made a suggestion.



hello...LCA had made its first flight back in 2001,look what he said


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## tvsram1992

Tshering22 said:


> Just disband HAL and ADA.
> 
> Auction them off to private investors.
> 
> Change the structure before trying anything new.


that will delay their projects by few decades


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## Safriz

IND151 said:


> ^^ Project Devil was complete failure.
> 
> Had we given up the efforts to develop missiles, what would be the situation today?
> 
> Tejas is very important, unless we learn to build a 4th gen fighter on our own(even without having indigenous engine) we can't move to 4.75th, 5th gen fighters and AURA



Missiles are a different ball game..
Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.


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## gslv mk3

Dreamreaper said:


> Missiles are a different ball game..
> Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
> But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.



Tejas mk1 is here,and mk2 i underdevelopment,now you want us to scrap Tejas program and enter into a new JV??


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## Abingdonboy

Dreamreaper said:


> Missiles are a different ball game..
> Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
> But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.


Quicker way to learn sure but not the most effective way long term. Look at what India is doing- getting the best 4.5++ gen fighter out there with significant ToT (Rafale), simultaneously entering into a JV for a 5th (FGFA) fighter all whilst perusing Self reliance (LCA). Cleverly and shrewdly all these projects are independent of one another and will ensure India will get the best out there whilst also devloping its own organic capabilities. 

Best of all worlds.

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## MilSpec

Dreamreaper said:


> Missiles are a different ball game..
> Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
> But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and *that's a quicker way to learn *than the Tejas.



I have seen ToT quite closely. and I have to respectfully disagree.

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## sancho

Dreamreaper said:


> India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
> Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas



As often said, 2 different fighter projects with different aims and different requirements!

LCA project - priority to set up an Indian aero industry, to develop and produce as many parts of the fighter in India
LCA fighter - cost-effective low end interceptor with CAS capability

FGFA project - fast and easy approach to get a NG fighter, NG techs and capabilities, according to Indian requirements, with parts of the development and the full production in India
FGFA fighter - NG air superiority and deep strike fighter at the high end of IAF


So there is neither a point to cancel LCA, nor to compare it to FGFA development, since India needs both for the industrial and operational needs!

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I have seen ToT quite closely. and I have to respectfully disagree.



Always depending on how good your position is to negotiate. ToT when India was a simple buyer obviously was lower, or for less important parts, than it is today in joint developments or JVs, that sometimes are even based on Indian requirements. The situation today is way different like the MMRCA and our demands for example shows and that's why co-developments and JVs with ToT is the key for us to get fast and easy to high techs (FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8, Maitri).


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Always depending on how good your position is to negotiate. ToT when India was a simple buyer obviously was lower, or for less important parts, than it is today in joint developments or JVs, that sometimes are even based on Indian requirements. The situation today is way different like the MMRCA and our demands for example shows and that's why co-developments and JVs with ToT is the key for us to get fast and easy to high techs (FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8, Maitri).



You will never devlop the skill and protocols you need for a product unless you have been responsible for the entire PLM of the product, in ToT your role starts after the original manufacturer has gone through design validation, design Fmea, process fmea, early launch containment, DVP&R, non conforming material process. So by the time the product reaches you, the design, the process, the validation, and quality check for every product is frozen. In other words, you don't get to learn anything in the process. You dont develop engineers and managers who can innovate and lead from thier own experience, you get engineers and managers who can follow instructions.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> You will never devlop the skill and protocols you need for a product unless you have been responsible for the entire PLM of the product, in ToT your role starts after the original manufacturer has gone through design validation, design Fmea, process fmea, early launch containment, DVP&R, non conforming material process. So by the time the product reaches you, the design, the process, the validation, and quality check for every product is frozen. In other words, you don't get to learn anything in the process. You dont develop engineers and managers who can innovate and lead from thier own experience, you get engineers and managers who can follow instructions.



Take the Brahmos co-development for example, without Russian tot especially on the propulsion and seeker, we wouldn't have such a weapon in our inventory today. We have it, because we used the co-development to include what we was able to do so far and got the part that we couldn't do from the Russians. Now we are at a level to further develop the missile to new varients, applications and even with NG versions in mind.
Same goes for the Maitri SAM, which also is developed according to Indian requirements with the techs that we can't provide and is meant to add French parts and capabilities that we don't have yet. 
FGFA, we include materials, coatings, avionics, while we get ToT of the most powerful AESA radar, NG engines and other techs that we aren't able to develop on our own...
...
...

On the other side we have LCA, that sadly was developed with waaay too many indigenous parts in fields where we wasn't realistically able to provide something and that's why the project suffered all the delays and problems and why it will be inducted only decades behind schedule. 

Also the Kaveri engine, developed alone, failed completetly and not ready to power an operational fighter anytime soon if we keep doing it alone. So all the money and time was wasted and now we search for a co-development or JV to fix the problems. 

LCA and Kaveri as programs were still important, but overestimating your capabilities with the wrong idea that you have to develop anything on your own will lead us nowhere as these developments sadly proved. As I said, times have changed and today we can demand way more than we could in the past and why co-developments and JVs under our requirements are so important for India, if we don't want to remain a generation behind China, Russia or the West and want to catch up faster.


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## IND151

^^agree with first paragraph of your post


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Take the Brahmos co-development for example, without Russian tot especially on the propulsion and seeker, we wouldn't have such a weapon in our inventory today. We have it, because we used the co-development to include what we was able to do so far and got the part that we couldn't do from the Russians. Now we are at a level to further develop the missile to new varients, applications and even with NG versions in mind.
> Same goes for the Maitri SAM, which also is developed according to Indian requirements with the techs that we can't provide and is meant to add French parts and capabilities that we don't have yet.
> FGFA, we include materials, coatings, avionics, while we get ToT of the most powerful AESA radar, NG engines and other techs that we aren't able to develop on our own...
> ...
> ...
> 
> On the other side we have LCA, that sadly was developed with waaay too many indigenous parts in fields where we wasn't realistically able to provide something and that's why the project suffered all the delays and problems and why it will be inducted only decades behind schedule.
> 
> Also the Kaveri engine, developed alone, failed completetly and not ready to power an operational fighter anytime soon if we keep doing it alone. So all the money and time was wasted and now we search for a co-development or JV to fix the problems.
> 
> LCA and Kaveri as programs were still important, but overestimating your capabilities with the wrong idea that you have to develop anything on your own will lead us nowhere as these developments sadly proved. As I said, times have changed and today we can demand way more than we could in the past and why co-developments and JVs under our requirements are so important for India, if we don't want to remain a generation behind China, Russia or the West and want to catch up faster.



Why dont we see indigenous ram jet missiles anti shipping, or longer range super sonic cruise missiles, if we learned a hell lot from Brahmos. From brahmos you learnt to make brahmos, that's it. I am not denying you haven't learned making brahmos and adding that capability in your arsenal. 

The faile kaveri project will teach every engineer and manager involved more than serial production of AL31F ever will. 

In the end it boils down to what your aim is? to have advanced weaponry in your arsenal by co-production or to become a world leader in innovation and design of the weapon systems. 

Russians, americans, Israelis, french, all of them can design weapon systems at their will, they got this capability from, product development culture, not reverse engineering or license production regime. There are no shortcuts to success dear.

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## IND151

Aesa not on First Batch of Tejas MK-2? | idrw.org

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## turbo charged

Tejas Fighter Jet: India scraps domestic jet engine plan citing lack of technical know how.

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> Russians, americans, Israelis, french, all of them can design weapon systems at their will, they got this capability from, product development culture, not reverse engineering or license production regime. There are no shortcuts to success dear.



Not really, especially the Russians and Americans benefitted after the world wars, by re-engineering German technologies, be it for rockets, jet fighters and jet engines, even stealth design, coatings and materials. Not to mention all the German scientiests that were hired by them later, to gain from their knowledge. China did similar things with Russian techs, designs or even Russian scientists. So there are shortcuts to develop things painfully alone with high costs, at long timeframes and only minimum effect for the forces. And when you live in the most dangeours neighborhood in the world, you can't afford to waste time and money and compromise on national defence, only for the sake of pride and the industry, especially not the privat one!
The defence of the country must always come first, that's why FGFA is the most important project for the security of the country and why LCA is the most important project for the aero industry. 

Btw, a failed Kaveri project might have gained us some experience, but caused major delays in LCA, which then resulted in Mig 21 not being replaced in time and loss of lives. If we had used a foreign licence produced engine, the fighter would be successfully in service yet and we could have saved these lifes, while the Kaveri project could had been done seperately as a Tech Demo project. Even if that had failed, it wouldn't had any effect on the LCA project, so licence producing things, even with minimum benefit of ToT is sometimes better than trying it alone, which is why we need A MIX OF BOTH and not the one OR the other!



turbo charged said:


> Tejas Fighter Jet: India scraps domestic jet engine plan citing lack of technical know how.



The article is from 2012.

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## IND151

^^ I think you are right. We should have delinked Kaveri from Tejas

But I don't agree with first paragraph. Despite gaining german know how, US and Russia poured in vast amount of money and talent to build world class weapons

Where their weapons stand today is the result of R&D they undertook for decades,reverse-engineering alone cant make a nation a tech superpower

Incase of China, they are under arms embargo, leaving them only one supplier. Same is not the case with India

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## shree835

*Aesa not on First Batch of Tejas MK-2?*

Sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that development of AESA for Tejas MK-2 is under way with foreign assistance in the program, but sources are hinting that AESA radar might not be ready for integration on first prototype of Tejas MK-2 which will be rolled out by mid of next year and will have it first flight by year end.

HAL plans to put Tejas MK-2 in production by 2016 but New Aesa radar will require more time in integration&#8217;s of weapons and separate validation test on each weapons , it is likely that first batch of Tejas MK-2 will come with older MMR radar developed for Tejas MK-1 and it seems IAF is ok with that .

Sources have also informed that AESA radar is still under development stage and will enter Ground based testing stage and then aircraft integration&#8217;s with Test bed aircraft so entering in first batch of Tejas MK-2 is highly unlikely .


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## cirr

shree835 said:


> *Aesa not on First Batch of Tejas MK-2?*
> 
> Sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that development of AESA for Tejas MK-2 is under way with foreign assistance in the program, but sources are hinting that AESA radar might not be ready for integration on first prototype of Tejas MK-2 which will be rolled out by mid of next year and will have it first flight by year end.
> 
> HAL plans to put Tejas MK-2 in production by 2016 but New Aesa radar will require more time in integration&#8217;s of weapons and separate validation test on each weapons , it is likely that first batch of Tejas MK-2 will come with older MMR radar developed for Tejas MK-1 and it seems IAF is ok with that .
> 
> Sources have also informed that AESA radar is still under development stage and will enter Ground based testing stage and then aircraft integration&#8217;s with Test bed aircraft so entering in first batch of Tejas MK-2 is highly unlikely .



which basically means that the AESA&#65292;even with foreign design and imported parts and software&#65292;won't be ready before year 2020 ends&#12290;

In the meantime&#65292;China's J-16 multi-role fighter bomber&#65292;seen here carrying a pair of PL10Cs and with China's own AESA&#65292;is near IOC&#65306;


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## kurup

cirr said:


> which basically means that the AESA&#65292;even with foreign design and imported parts and software&#65292;won't be ready before year 2020 ends&#12290;
> 
> In the meantime&#65292;China's J-16 multi-role fighter bomber&#65292;seen here carrying a pair of PL10Cs and with China's own AESA&#65292;is near IOC&#65306;



Well for your information , nobody gives a $hit.

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## Echo_419

cirr said:


> which basically means that the AESA&#65292;even with foreign design and imported parts and software&#65292;won't be ready before year 2020 ends&#12290;
> 
> In the meantime&#65292;China's J-16 multi-role fighter bomber&#65292;seen here carrying a pair of PL10Cs and with China's own AESA&#65292;is near IOC&#65306;




Oh really 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBDY CARES


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Not really, especially the Russians and Americans benefitted after the world wars, by re-engineering German technologies, be it for rockets, jet fighters and jet engines, even stealth design, coatings and materials. Not to mention all the German scientiests that were hired by them later, to gain from their knowledge. China did similar things with Russian techs, designs or even Russian scientists. So there are shortcuts to develop things painfully alone with high costs, at long timeframes and only minimum effect for the forces. And when you live in the most dangeours neighborhood in the world, you can't afford to waste time and money and compromise on national defence, only for the sake of pride and the industry, especially not the privat one!



German re-engineering is not as huge as you think. The first patent for using a gas turbine on an aircraft M. Guillaum, a french national, way before the germans, RAF had started developmental work on a jet engine back in the late 20's, Sergey Korolev's GIRD-6 project in 1932 shows russia's developmental work in ramjet and rocket work in the 1932. These exploratory work is nothing but product development. Russian a2a missiles, A2G weaponry, ICBM,s SAM's, Radars, Electronics, Welding technology, metrology has nothing to do with German re-engineering, they owe it to product development and product management. 

I dont disagree with delivery time for projects, but then again that has nothing to do with product development, If you undertake a 4th gen aircraft project, with indigenous engine, you need to have a project outlined in correct phases, and give you an optimistic and pessimistic timeline for it's delivery based on your capability. If you claim you will deliver the project that takes 25 years in 10 years, it is not the fault of the design or product developmental cycle, it is faulty project management. You need to understand your technical strengths, provide the right forecasts for delivery of projects so that the procurement services can establish the right interim solutions untill your indigenous capabilities are ready. Axing product development because of faulty project management doesn't make any sense to any good manager. 



sancho said:


> The defence of the country must always come first, that's why FGFA is the most important project for the security of the country and why LCA is the most important project for the aero industry.



I dont disagree with that at all.




sancho said:


> Btw, a failed Kaveri project might have gained us some experience, but caused major delays in LCA, which then resulted in Mig 21 not being replaced in time and loss of lives. If we had used a foreign licence produced engine, the fighter would be successfully in service yet and we could have saved these lifes, while the Kaveri project could had been done seperately as a Tech Demo project. Even if that had failed, it wouldn't had any effect on the LCA project, so licence producing things, even with minimum benefit of ToT is sometimes better than trying it alone, which is why we need A MIX OF BOTH and not the one OR the other!



That is very inaccurate, and you are the last person I could think of buying into this one. First if your aircrafts vintage is affecting your safety, there is not excuse in flying it. Secondly most of the mig 21 and mig 27 incidents can be traced back to sub-par equipment imported from Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Ukraine after collapse of the soviet union by the MoD, and guess why there has been no investigation on that. Next major cause is the lack of lead in jet trainer, guess who delayed the AJT by 15 years, it sure as hell wasn't HAL or DRDO, but then no will will blame the MoD or BAE, in the totally fair media of India. HAL and DRDO bashing is common becuase neither of them have any lobbyist paying large sums to the shuklla's and other hacks in the media to sing praises of wonders of imports. As far as learning goes, tell me how many indegenious projects have cropped out of brahmos. Next we have been making turmansky, kataruchevs, al31f's, rolls royce adour, does our kaveri gtrx derrive any tooling from any of the projects? the answer is a big big NO. I again repeat, co-development projects are great for developing capabilities, and having state of the art equipment, it is great to get technical insight and leaning about newer technologies, but untill you have your own product development protocols set in stone, foreign dependencies will always haunt you. There are no short cuts and you have to do the hard work, every thing from design to delivery and service to be in the market as a world leader.

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> German re-engineering is not as huge as you think. The first patent for using a gas turbine on an aircraft M. Guillaum, a french national, way before the germans, RAF had started developmental work on a jet engine back in the late 20's, Sergey Korolev's GIRD-6 project in 1932 shows russia's developmental work in ramjet and rocket work in the 1932. These exploratory work is nothing but product development. Russian a2a missiles, A2G weaponry, ICBM,s SAM's, Radars, Electronics, Welding technology, metrology has nothing to do with German re-engineering, they owe it to product development and product management.



Having a patent is one thing, having developed it to serial production standard a whole different story and that's why the US, Russians, Brits... was so eager to get as many German techs and scientists as possible in their hand. Even today, Germany is one of the key countries when it comes to innovation, but it's often the US that do something with the knowledge. 
So when these countries benefited a lot from foreign technology, when we see the US with their big defence budget getting Israeli help for avionics, or missiles techs, when we see the Israelis getting German missiles techs, when we see the Russian getting Israeli UAV techs, the Russians going for French and Italian arms... ... ...



sandy_3126 said:


> If you claim you will deliver the project that takes 25 years in 10 years, it is not the fault of the design or product developmental cycle, *it is faulty project management. You need to understand your technical strengths, provide the right forecasts for delivery of projects so that the procurement services can establish the right interim solutions untill your indigenous capabilities are ready.*



Exactly, but that's where we have a huuuuge problem, our pride!!! How do you expect a realistic assessment of your strenght, when you start a project with the idea in mind, that we have to do it alone to be self reliant? That leads automatically to the idea that we have to develop and produce every nut and bolt alone and that exactly is the starting point for a faulty project managment, since it's based on complete wrong facts!
Not to mention that it also explains why Indian developments are roughly as costly as western counterparts, be it Arjun that is not really cheap, the LCA that has gone over budget, or even the HTT 40, that might have been cheaper if we HAL had added more foreign parts, that are produced in larger numbers for other foreign trainern. Infact, if they had tried to get more commonality to the PC7, they could have at least shown some benefits wrt operational costs, based on commen spares, but again, the goal of as much Indian parts as possible is counter-productive, that a benefit. That's why I always say we should focus on more commonality between LCA and Rafale, to get common weapon packs, avionics and spares, to reduce the operational costs again. Or to speed up LCA MK2s induction, by simply taking the RBE 2 AESA, instead of waiting for either a pre-mature Indian puls-doppler radar, or a pre-mature Indian AESA radar. It's good that we develop such things, but we have to let them go at a certain point, for the sake of the whole development, just like we had to do with Kaveri engine and hope to fit it in other platforms as soon as they are mature enough. 



sandy_3126 said:


> First if your aircrafts vintage is affecting your safety, there is not excuse in flying it.



When you don't have an alternative? LCA was meant to be the alternative and operational years ago, so it's not the Mig that is the actual issue, because it's not surprising that these fighter gets problems when they are operated more than a decade longer, than initially planned. The problem is, why we needed that long to replace them and that is largly caused by the delays of LCA and secondly by the decision of MoD to go to M-MRCA and not decide for M2K-5s, which might have replaced a good part of the Migs by now. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Next major cause is the lack of lead in jet trainer, guess who delayed the AJT by 15 years, it sure as hell wasn't HAL or DRDO



Possible, but who is responsible for the delays of IJT now and who didn't get the problems of the basic trainer in control, which lead to the grounding of the whole fleet and no basic training at all? HAL, so it's not that simple and I am well aware that there are many sides to blame, but the fact is, this focusing on indigenous only has made things worse and not better and in certain fields we lost even the edge that we had over Pakistani forces, because of these delays (take the AWACS project delays as an example). 



sandy_3126 said:


> As far as learning goes, tell me how many indegenious projects have cropped out of brahmos.



Can't tell you that, because I don't know how much relation it has to the Nirbhay development for example. What I know is, that we now jointly develop more capable versions of Brahmos, with more indigenous participation, so we must have learned something and at a level that we wouldn't have in decades, if we would have tried it alone. 
But take our SSBN developments for example, do you think we did it alone? Don't you think we had Russian, possibly even French help? 
Dhruv, developed with foreign help, which lead us to a level where we could replace more and more parts and now re-design it into different versions on our own. Would had never been possible without German, French or Israeli help. 

As I said, I agree with you that we didn't benefited a lot in the past, but you can't deny that we still did benefited. Similarly, we are in a totaly different position today, than we were in the past, which makes ToT to a whole different thing as well. That's why DRDO/GTRE wants the Snecma JV for Kaveri K10, under ToT, why we want to co-develop Maitri SAM under ToT..., because we can demant way more than in the past, since we have many options today, to get what we want.



sandy_3126 said:


> Next we have been making turmansky, kataruchevs, al31f's, rolls royce adour, does our kaveri gtrx derrive any tooling from any of the projects? the answer is a big big NO.



How could it? Did DRDO made these engines or did HAL made them? So why didn't HAL developed the engine based on the knowledge they gained? But again, those were licence production from the past, where the foreign countries said what we can have and we had to take it, today we can open an engine competition and they have to offer us as much as possible, to get the deal. I would have loved to see us getting the EJ 200 engine and 3D TVC for LCA, with cristal blade and TVN ToT, do you really believe that wouldn't have benefited us wrt Kaveri? If yes, our engine industry must be even worse then I thought, but I guess you have the better inside view.



sandy_3126 said:


> I again repeat, co-development projects are great for developing capabilities, and having state of the art equipment, it is great to get technical insight and leaning about newer technologies, but untill you have your own product development protocols set in stone, foreign dependencies will always haunt you. There are no short cuts and you have to do the hard work, every thing from design to delivery and service to be in the market as a world leader.



Out of interest, lets say you would have been in charge for the LCA program, would you had made the fighter development as a whole dependent on indigenous radar and engine developments as well? Do you think, we had the necessary know how, or technical strengths like you said it back then and what would you had made differently?


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## sudhir007

Hindustan Aeronautics Sets Five-Year Goal for Fighter, Trainer Production | idrw.org

A target for criticism over delays in projects in the past, India&#8217;s largest defense manufacturer, government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is undergoing a transformation of its human resource through training and innovative programs. This is focusing on two urgent requirements&#8211;the overdue Light Combat Aircraft (LCA); and the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT). HAL (Chalet A 124) has confirmed that the projects will go into production in the next five years.

Even as India opens up to procuring more Western military aircraft and its civil fleet grows, HAL&#8217;s inclination to establish partnerships is becoming increasingly apparent. For example drawing on its inherent strengths and an established infrastructure, the company is now &#8220;shaping plans&#8221; to enter the maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) sector along with a (private) partner, a senior Minister of Defence told AIN.

On paper, while HAL has narrowed down its choices for its MRO facility to Bangalore, where it has its head office, and Kanpur, the site for the series production of the Multi-Role Transport aircraft under co-design and development with Russian partners, it is Nashik that is the most likely choice given its proximity to commercial capital, Mumbai (106 miles) and HAL&#8217;s center for its aircraft division.

An expression of interest (EOI) was invited late last year &#8220;from a renowned establishment in the world having proven track record and experience for establishing a comprehensive independent world class maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility.&#8221; This would be in Nashik on the HAL Airport area, and would undertake maintenance of business jets and commercial aircraft such as Airbus 320s, Boeing 737s and ATR turboprops. The MRO facility would use &#8220;a public private partnership model in the form of joint Venture (JV) with OEMs,&#8221; according to the EOI.

Services planned for the MRO will include major checks, repair and overhaul of jet engines, turboprops and APUs fitted on commercial aircraft and helicopters, landing gear repair and overhaul, painting, refurbishing, repair of components/parts warehousing and modifications including freighter conversions. In February, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) permitted HAL to operate its airport at Nashik, where the company has already established a passenger-cum-cargo terminal. &#8220;As part of our foray into the civilian sector, we are developing the Ozar airport at Nashik, which is being used [presently] for flying only military aircraft,&#8221; R.K. Tyagi, chairman of HAL, said.

HAL also has an interest in building a 90-seater regional aircraft with private participation under a joint venture model. &#8220;We have made a humble beginning with Dhruv civil variant (helicopter) as an offshoot of the military program. We now propose to play a leading role in India&#8217;s national civil aircraft development program as we have dedicated facilities at our transport division in Kanpur,&#8221; Tyagi said.

Challenges remain, such as the need to overcome dependence on raw material and access to critical technologies, admitted Tyagi. The supply chain, both from India and abroad, also poses issues: &#8220;Supplies from abroad have long lead-times coupled with irritants like unjustified price escalation and obsolescence,&#8221; he added. &#8220;There is also a need to augment development and production of equipment and spares. This is an area where our sourcing from abroad is the maximum with associated difficult supply chains.&#8221;

As the lead integrator for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), for which Dassault&#8217;s Rafale was chosen, HAL&#8211;with 2,400 private vendors&#8211;could also be working with industrial giant Reliance Industries Ltd. (RIL) as its major supplier. RILis looking to invest around $1 billion on its new aerospace division at Nashik to &#8220;design, develop and manufacture equipment and components, including airframe, engine, radars, avionics and accessories for military and civilian aircraft, helicopters, unmanned airborne vehicles and aerostats.&#8221; It is likely that the company will also manufacture parts for the Dassault Falcon business jet.

An MoD official said HAL needed to define a partner for the MMRCA that will facilitate Tier-2 and -3 suppliers, or assume that responsibility itself. Proponents ofHALsay that the government-owned company has far more experience in selecting suppliers for high-technology defense projects than private companies.

In the first four months of 2013 HAL applied for 127 patents related to aeronautical products and systems, including metal treatment, and spent $312 million on design and development, yet it still continues to lag in the challenging arena of engine design. &#8220;The present state of engine technology [in India] is not up to the mark and the aerospace industry is at crossroads,&#8221; said V.K Saraswat, scientific advisor to the defense minister. &#8220;We have achieved partial success with the Kaveri [for the LCA]&#8230; [but] we don&#8217;t even have state-of-the art indigenous systems worth mentioning. Even simple fuel-injection systems are not on a par with international standards,&#8221; Saraswat continued, while pointing out that even Indian-manufactured tanks had to rely on imported engines.

There are some who doubt HAL&#8217;s confidence about the transfer of technology (TOT) from Rafale&#8217;s M88-2 engines from Snecma, each providing a thrust of 75kN and incorporating the latest technologies such as single-piece bladed compressor disks (blisks), a low-NOx combustion chamber, single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy disks and ceramic coatings, which could enable India to become self-sufficient in engine technology. &#8220;The Kaveri developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment(GTRE) is now planned for use for the unmanned combat air vehicle,&#8221; said one OEM executive. &#8220;That&#8217;s not saying much about its capability&#8230;engines involve a lot of intellectual property and one doesn&#8217;t see full TOT happening.&#8221;

Helicopters, where HAL can claim experience and success in, are on the radar with discussions ongoing with OEMs to develop a 10-to 12-ton 22-seater (like the Mi-17) category helicopter for VIPs for flying at an altitude of 23,000 ft. In a tie-up with the Indian Institute of Technology in Chennai, joint research will be carried out in the field of transmission systems for a helicopter engine program. &#8220;This partnership will involve required software and design solutions for different types of gears, bearings, lubrication system, vibration monitoring systems and production technologies,&#8221; said an IIT official. HAL has also committed to certification of a Light Utility Helicopter, of which 187 are on order by the Indian army and air force, by 2015.

Acknowledging the changing business environment and challenges associated with not having kept up with times, HAL has introduced a leadership development program with premier Indian Institute of Management-Ahmedabad (IIM-A) to train its senior executives. &#8220;Our executives need to have exposure to enable them to benchmark operational and business excellence with the best international practices,&#8221; Tyagi said. The company has also inducted 400 management and design trainees and engaged consultancy KPMG to audit its workforce.

In its space business, HAL recently announced that it was setting up a facility for the Indian Space Research Organization to produce cryogenic engines and components for its geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle.



*UPDATE ON HAL PROJECTS:*

Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA): Preliminary design phase completed. Negotiations in progress to conclude R&D contract. 20 agencies will be involved at the R&D stage.

Jaguar Upgrade: The first flight of the Jaguar Darin III (Maritime variant) took place in Nov. 2012 and is undergoing flight evaluation. Modification on two other variants&#8211;strike and trainer&#8211;is in progress. The first flights are due by July 13 and September 13, respectively. Flight Operation Certificate (FOC) is planned for 2014-15.

Mirage Upgrade: Preliminary Design Review has been completed and technical specs for the FOC have been finalized. Design activities are under progress, according to HAL

Sukhoi: In addition to the existing contract of 180 aircraft, a contract for an additional 42 has been signed. HAL claims to have &#8220;absorbed the technologies to manufacture aircraft from the raw material stage.&#8221;

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA): The prototype flew last year and carrier compatibility trials are scheduled before year-end at the Navy&#8217;s shore-based testing facility in Goa.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2199 Test Flights Successfully. (13-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-136,LSP4-82,LSP5-178,LSP7-43,NP1-4,LSP8-6)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2206 Test Flights Successfully. (15-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-138*,LSP4-82,*LSP5-180,LSP7-44*,NP1-4,*LSP8-8*)


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2206 Test Flights Successfully. (15-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-138,LSP4-82,LSP5-180,LSP7-44,NP1-4,LSP8-8)

To
LCA-Tejas has completed 2208 Test Flights Successfully. (18-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-138,LSP4-82,LSP5-180,*LSP7-45*,NP1-4,*LSP8-9*)

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## Gessler

Yep there is has already crossed 2,200 flights.


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## SR-91

> gessler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep there is has already crossed 2,200 flights.
Click to expand...




Plz add "*without any incident*", 
This makes me feel very proud.

Fingers crossed.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> Yep there is has already crossed 2,200 flights.



Back on PDF? Hope you are meant to stay.


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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Back on PDF? Hope you are meant to stay.



Yes, I'm posting here after a long time.

Actually I wanted to come back as soon as the ban on me lifted in April this year.
But then I lost my password to PDF login so couldn't come, slowly I got more used to IDF,
and forgot about this.

I happened to come across some old notebooks where I had initially scribbled my password
and the first thing I did after that, login to PDF and start posting here again.

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## Beerbal

gessler said:


> Yes, I'm posting here after a long time.
> 
> Actually I wanted to come back as soon as the ban on me lifted in April this year.
> But then I lost my password to PDF login so couldn't come, slowly I got more used to IDF,
> and forgot about this.
> 
> I happened to come across *some old notebooks* where I had initially scribbled my password
> and the first thing I did after that, login to PDF and start posting here again.





I am still looking for old notebook.  

@LCA: recently I heard 2 news 
a) Some fighter plane which was inducted 5-6 years ago will schedule to get refueling probe by 2013 end.(don't want to disclose name of plane as it will lead us to illogical dick coparision)
b) USAF is ready to induct F35 with IOC standard..



But our IAF wants 24 Degree AoA, Air refueling capability and many more things.. Without these ancillaries LCA will be considered as failed project and the order will be given to West or Russia (with heavy kickback)...

Kudos Ministry/IAF... 


My proposal: Dilute IAF and give 15 Squads each to IN and IA. Gradually dissolve IAF. What is the use of incompetent and IAF? (Which is short of squadron always)...


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## RPK

http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=462270&catid=36

*Defence minister to review long-delayed LCA project today*
23 June 2013
press trust of india
NEW DELHI, 23 JUNE: Defence Minister A K Antony will tomorrow review the long-delayed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project with all the stake-holders including the Indian Air Force to find out ways of avoiding further slippage in the programme.
After the first Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-I) in January 2011, DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are planning to hold the IOC-2 in September this year and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by the end of next year. The meeting will be attended by senior officials of DRDO including its head Avinash Chander while Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne is expected to represent IAF, sources said.
During the meeting, the IAF is expected to make a presentation to bring out the shortcomings in the LCA that it would want to be done away with and its requirements from the aircraft, they said.
Soon after Mr Chander took over, Mr Antony asked him to take care of the LCA project as his top priority and ensure there was no further time slippage in the programme.
In recent times, Mr Antony has grown impatient over the continuing delays in the programme which was initiated in the 80s and has seen several delays in it and several time and cost overruns. Recently he had said at a DRDO function that, &#8220;I am waiting that the LCA should become a reality. I have been given a particular date by the DRDO and I hope that it is the final date and the aircraft gets its Initial Operational Clearance II.
&#8220;Antony asked the team of HAL, DRDO and IAF to work together on the LCA project and ensure that it achieves the IOC-II and then the FOC.
The DRDO is seriously undertaking the task assigned to it by the Government and has formed a high-level team to complete the project in time.

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## SRP

Defence Minister A K Antony will tomorrow review the long-delayed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project with all the stake-holders including the Indian Air Force to find out ways of avoiding further slippage in the programme.

After the first Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-I) in January 2011, DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are planning to hold the IOC-2 in September this year and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by the end of next year. The meeting will be attended by senior officials of DRDO including its head Avinash Chander while Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne is expected to represent IAF, sources said.

During the meeting, the IAF is expected to make a presentation to bring out the shortcomings in the LCA that it would want to be done away with and its requirements from the aircraft, they said.

Soon after Mr Chander took over, Mr Antony asked him to take care of the LCA project as his top priority and ensure there was no further time slippage in the programme.

In recent times, Mr Antony has grown impatient over the continuing delays in the programme which was initiated in the 80s and has seen several delays in it and several time and cost overruns. Recently he had said at a DRDO function that, &#8220;I am waiting that the LCA should become a reality. I have been given a particular date by the DRDO and I hope that it is the final date and the aircraft gets its Initial Operational Clearance II.

&#8220;Antony asked the team of HAL, DRDO and IAF to work together on the LCA project and ensure that it achieves the IOC-II and then the FOC.

The DRDO is seriously undertaking the task assigned to it by the Government and has formed a high-level team to complete the project in time.

idrw.org/?p=23627

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## SirHatesALot

Every citizen of this country is dying to see this plane inducted.


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## Koovie

Rather waiting for the Rafales and FGFAs... dont care about Tejas.


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## janon

BLACKGOLD said:


> Every citizen of this country is dying to see this plane inducted.



LOL, really?

How many citizens do you think have even heard of it?

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## SirHatesALot

janon said:


> LOL, really?
> 
> How many citizens do you think have even heard of it?



Sorry i meant every citizen in PDF

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## janon

BLACKGOLD said:


> Sorry i meant every citizen in PDF



Except @Koovie above!


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## Beerbal

Scrap LCA...

Buy Grippen...


We will make some money by buying Grippen, while HAL will not pay a penny to Indian. By buying Grippen at least few Indian become rich.. What LCA will give, nothing? Once LCA will be inducted, we will be unable to buy foreign maal, it will close doors for upari Kamai (Bribes).

For Indians, LCA must be scraped..

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## SirHatesALot

He is a False Flagger


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## Koovie

BLACKGOLD said:


> He is a False Flagger



PFFFFFF seriously, LCA will provide HAL with invaluable experience, but it wont be a game changer in the IAF arsenal, while the new Sukhois, FGFAs and Rafales will...

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## SirHatesALot

Koovie said:


> PFFFFFF seriously, LCA will provide HAL with invaluable experience, but it wont be a game changer in the IAF arsenal, while the new Sukhois, FGFAs and Rafales will...



I know just joking buddy

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## DANGER-ZONE

News Already posted in LCA thread .... When an LCA Sticky thread already running what is the need of opening several others for JUST INs. 
@nuclearpak, @ANTIBODY, @Oscar have you guys noticed it .... its an usual act of members here and nobody cares about it. Don't we have a dedicated Intel MOD or something that take cares of Indian section as well.

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## shree835

*IOC-2 of LCA Tejas delayed by one month , new deadline is November*

The much-awaited induction of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft in the Indian Air Force got further delayed with the Defence Ministry giving the LCA team a new deadline of November, 2013, to obtain the initial operational clearance-2, which will be the last but one hurdle before the LCA gets inducted into the air force.

The earlier deadline for the IOC-2 was September, which has been extended by two months now. The schedule for the final operational clearance will be December, 2014, though the top brass in the IAF is sceptical about the FOC deadline.

At a review meeting on Monday, Defence Minister A K Antony asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation, Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to avoid any further slippage on the LCA programme that began in 1983 with the target of developing the indigenous fighter in five years.
But 30 years down the line and after spending more than Rs 13,000 crore, the Tejas light combat aircraft is still not a part of the Indian Air Force inventory, though recently it flew in an IAF exercise at Pokhran.

At the review meeting, HAL was asked to ramp up its production capacity to 16 aircraft a year.

Even though the LCA got its IOC-I in January, 2011, the aircraft had to go through an additional IOC as the IAF?was unhappy with the IOC-I. The government had earlier sanctioned LCA&#8217;s full scale engineering development by December 31, 2018.

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## shree835

Induction of LCA Tejas postponed to November


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## shree835

*Avoid further time slippage: Antony on Light Combat Aircraft project*

Worried over the long delay in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, defence minister A K Antony on Monday asked DRDO and HAL to avoid further time slippage and stick to the schedule of achieving final clearance for the indigenous plane by the end of next year.

In a meeting to review the programme, it was decided that efforts would be made by all the stakeholders to attain the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of the aircraft by November this year and its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by the end of 2014.

The defence minister stressed upon the necessity to stick to the schedule and for concerted efforts on the part of all stake holders for avoiding further slippage in the programme, defence ministry officials said here.

Asking Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to make the project number one thrust area, the meeting decided that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would ramp up its production capacity to 16 aircraft per year.

The high-level meeting was attended by National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon, Defence Secretary R K Mathur, IAF chief NAK Browne, DRDO chief Avinash Chander and LCA Programme Director P Subramaniam.

The first Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-I) of the aircraft was achieved in January 2011.

In recent times, Antony has grown impatient over the continuing delays in the programme which was initiated in the 80s and has seen several time and cost overruns.

Recently, he had said at a DRDO function, I am waiting that LCA should become a reality. I have been given a particular date by DRDO and I hope that it is the final date and the aircraft gets its Initial Operational Clearance II.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Avoid-further-time-slippage-Antony-on-Light-Combat-Aircraft-project/articleshow/20746401.cms


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## sudhir007

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2208 Test Flights Successfully. (18-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-138,LSP4-82,LSP5-180,LSP7-45,NP1-4,LSP8-9)

To
LCA-Tejas has completed 2219 Test Flights Successfully. (21-June-2013).
&#8226; (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-140,LSP4-84,LSP5-184*,LSP7-45,NP1-4,*LSP8-12*)


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## rockstarIN

LSP7 & 8 to hand over to IAF post IOC-2 in november 13, right?


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## satishkumarcsc

Fire the derby soon....


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> LSP7 & 8 to hand over to IAF post IOC-2 in november 13, right?



Yes....They will


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## sudhir007

*More Flight test update*



From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2225 Test Flights Successfully. (21-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-141,LSP4-85,LSP5-186,LSP7-46,NP1-4,LSP8-13)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2228 Test Flights Successfully. (24-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-142*,LSP4-85,*LSP5-187,LSP7-47*,NP1-4,LSP8-13)


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## IND151

IOC-2 of LCA Tejas delayed by one month , new deadline is November | idrw.org


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## S-DUCT

LCA Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed *2234* Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-144*,LSP4-85,*LSP5-188*,*LSP7-48*,NP1-4,*LSP8-15*)

From
LCA-Tejas has completed *2228* Test Flights Successfully. (24-June-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-142*,LSP4-85,*LSP5-187*,*LSP7-47*,NP1-4,*LSP8-13*)

Six test flights in one day.!

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## Mujraparty

*AK Antony sets December deadline for final delivery of LCA Tejas*

It will be a race against time for the developers of the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, as Defence Minister A.K.* Antony has set a December 2014 deadline for the final delivery of the home-made fighter.*

But going by the amount of work remaining on the aircraft, it will be a rush for the scientists to get the final operational clearance within the stipulated time. To achieve the target of getting combat ready, *more than 1,200 parameters still need to be met.*

The most crucial issues include getting a new radome for the aircraft as the quality of the previous one was found to be hampering radar performance.

Antony on Monday held a review of the Tejas, which is in the making for the last 30 years. The latest intervention from the ministry means that the project will be among the top priorities for DRDO, which has Dr Avinash Chander as its new chief.

*The ministry has also asked Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to enhance its facility to produce 16 aircraft a year.*

This again would be a gigantic task considering the fact that HAL took years to maintain the schedule of delivery of Sukhoi-30 aircraft after it was given the licence to produce in the country.

The delay in delivery of Sukhois has already impacted IAF's operational readiness. The fresh impetus was needed as the aircraft missed another deadline this month when it was due to obtain second initial operating clearance (IOC).

*November 2013 has been set as the new deadline for getting IOC-2, which is a crucial step before the aircraft is finally certified to be ready for induction. It takes more than a year to obtain final operating clearance (FOC) after the IOC.*

The first IOC for the aircraft was obtained in 2011. *Officials said the process of getting the radome, which houses the Israeli radar, from an indigenous source can itself take at least a year's time.
*
*On an average, 80 issues are addressed every month. There have been progress on many counts, admit officials, but a number of issues are yet to be resolved.*

The cost of the LCA project has now crossed more than Rs.20,000 crore though it was initially pegged at Rs.560 crore in the early 1980s. T*he IAF is looking to raise only two squadrons of this version of the aircraft which is powered by GE-404 engines whose thrust is not adequate.*


Read more at: AK Antony sets December deadline for final delivery of LCA Tejas : North, News - India Today

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## shree835

*AK Antony sets December deadline for final delivery of LCA Tejas*

It will be a race against time for the developers of the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, as Defence Minister A.K. Antony has set a December 2014 deadline for the final delivery of the home-made fighter.

But going by the amount of work remaining on the aircraft, it will be a rush for the scientists to get the final operational clearance within the stipulated time. To achieve the target of getting combat ready, more than 1,200 parameters still need to be met.

The most crucial issues include getting a new radome for the aircraft as the quality of the previous one was found to be hampering radar performance.

Antony on Monday held a review of the Tejas, which is in the making for the last 30 years. The latest intervention from the ministry means that the project will be among the top priorities for DRDO, which has Dr Avinash Chander as its new chief.

The ministry has also asked Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to enhance its facility to produce 16 aircraft a year.

This again would be a gigantic task considering the fact that HAL took years to maintain the schedule of delivery of Sukhoi-30 aircraft after it was given the licence to produce in the country.

The delay in delivery of Sukhois has already impacted IAFs operational readiness. The fresh impetus was needed as the aircraft missed another deadline this month when it was due to obtain second initial operating clearance (IOC).

November 2013 has been set as the new deadline for getting IOC-2, which is a crucial step before the aircraft is finally certified to be ready for induction. It takes more than a year to obtain final operating clearance (FOC) after the IOC.

The first IOC for the aircraft was obtained in 2011. Officials said the process of getting the radome, which houses the Israeli radar, from an indigenous source can itself take at least a years time.

On an average, 80 issues are addressed every month. There have been progress on many counts, admit officials, but a number of issues are yet to be resolved.

The cost of the LCA project has now crossed more than Rs.20,000 crore though it was initially pegged at Rs.560 crore in the early 1980s. The IAF is looking to raise only two squadrons of this version of the aircraft which is powered by GE-404 engines whose thrust is not adequate.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/lca-tejas-ak-antony-sets-december-deadline-final-delivery-india-today/1/285321.html


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## IND151

AK Antony sets December deadline for final delivery of LCA Tejas | idrw.org


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## sudhir007

S-DUCT said:


> LCA Flight test update
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed *2234* Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-144*,LSP4-85,*LSP5-188*,*LSP7-48*,NP1-4,*LSP8-15*)
> 
> From
> LCA-Tejas has completed *2228* Test Flights Successfully. (24-June-2013).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-142*,LSP4-85,*LSP5-187*,*LSP7-47*,NP1-4,*LSP8-13*)
> 
> Six test flights in one day.!



To Fast 

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2234 Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-144,LSP4-85,LSP5-188,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2235 Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-144,*LSP4-86*,LSP5-188,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

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## shree835

*Combat off the mark*

Already facing a huge delay, the ambitious indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)&#8211;Tejas project came up for review at a high-level meeting which was chaired by Union Defence Minister A.K. Antony recently in the Capital.

Mr. Antony stressed upon the necessity to adhere to schedule and asked all stake holders for avoiding further slippage on the programme. He also directed the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to make the LCA as its number one thrust area.

It was decided at the review meeting that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would ramp up the production capacity of LCA to 16 aircraft a year. The meeting decided that efforts should be made to attain Initial Operational Clearance-II by November this year and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by December 2014.

The meeting was attended, among others, by National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi, Defence Secretary R.K. Mathur, DRDO chief Avinash Chander and HAL chief R.K. Tyagi.

Tejas, already three decades in the making, is not likely to become fully combat worthy even in 2015, sources in the defence industry say. Around a dozen Tejas prototypes have taken to flying but with IOC&#8211;II being pushed to November this year, it could take even longer for FOC to come around. The IOC-II is compulsory to certify the fighter jet as fully airworthy.

In fact, the new DRDO chief Avinash Chander, who took over from V.K. Saraswat on May 30 and is himself a missile expert, will have his task cut out &#8212; to ensure that the LCA project does not suffer any more delays as it is crucial for India to get its own fighter jet in time.

The Tejas LCA project was first sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs. 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s. With the delay, the cost of the overall programme has escalated to huge proportions. It is estimated to cost more than Rs. 25,000 crore if the Naval variant and the unsuccessful Kaveri engine are also included.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed order for 20 Tejas in IOC-II configuration, with the American GE-404 engines, and another 20 in FOC. As per current plans, IAF will order six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16 to 18 jets each), with the more powerful GE F-414 engines, once the fighter is combat-ready.

India&#8217;s LCA programme is meant to boost its capabilities even as the IAF continues to operate the now modernised version of MiG-21 Bison. The IAF hopes to maintain an adequate force until the multi-billion dollar MMRCA (medium, multi-role combat aircraft) order of 126 fighter Rafale fighter jets from France fructifies. And it is the reason, why India&#8217;s own LCA Tejas project is crucial to the IAF&#8217;s future prospects.

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## shree835

Combat off the mark - The Hindu


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## kaykay

Livefist: DRDO CHIEF INTERVIEW Part1: First Full-Rate Production LCAs This Year

The first two to three full-rate production LCA Tejas Mk.1 fighters for the Indian Air Force will roll out HAL's production facility in Bangalore in December, marking a major milestone in the trouble's programme's final leg. The aircraft will be the first of an order of 40 placed by the IAF of the Mk.1 variant slated to enter squadron service by the end of next year. In an exclusive interview to Livefist, the DRDO's new chief Dr Avinash Chander, said, "I feel very confident that LCA is within a visible range for production start. The target is that production should start this year. We should see two-three aircraft rolling out this year itself." After taking over as the DRDO's new chief last month following years at the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), where he found renown as the spearhead of the Agni strategic missile programme, one of the first things that Dr Chander did in his new capacity was fly down to Bangalore and chair a series of meetings with officials from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), CEMILAC, National Fight Test Centre, HAL and the handful of other agencies involved in the development and certification of the LCA Tejas. His message was simple, yet clear: the air force, and indeed the country, would not wait any longer than the end of next year for the Mk.1. He told them, in no uncertain terms, that the next 18 months needed to be the fight of their lives. No excuses. Tejas needed to leave the DRDO stable, he impressed, because there were bigger, more challenging aircraft to build for the IAF. The DRDO, he told them, simply couldn't be stalled with the programme any longer. With over 2,200 test sorties on the board, the Tejas has 140 hours of test flying left before it achieves the second phase of its initial operational clearance (IOC-2), indicates Dr Chander, a special set of test points deferred from the first in January 2011. "The residual tasks are quite minimal. Some weapon release trials we have to do, some modifications we have done need to be tested. The radar has to be tested for operations. A total of 140 hours are planned in the next few months for IOC-2. With that the aircraft will be cleared for production." Final operational clearance (FOC)), the final step before induction into an IAF squadron, is set for November-December 2014. "We will complete the FOC by 2014 end. There are some issues when you touch the boundaries of performance, which have been identified and come out only during flight test. Those will be rectified. For FOC, there will be a variety of weapons, all weather clearance." Right about the time that the Tejas Mk.1 achieves IOC-2, two more naval prototypes will roll out, followed by a first flight before the end of the year. "The test facility is getting ready. I am confident that the LCA Navy will be on schedule," says Dr Chander. The first prototype, which took off in April last year, hasn't flown for nearly a year now, with the platform's undercarriage undergoing a major re-design with the help of EADS as a technological consultant. "The safety record of the Tejas during testing has been absolutely superb. No other aircraft has this record," Dr Chander says with pride. The new DRDO chief has asked for an update every alternate day on the LCA programme, and will be briefed by his special team entrusted with keeping things on track over the next 18 months.

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## rockstarIN

^^thats why we see lots of flights nowadays...!!


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## RPK

which took off in April last year, hasn't flown for nearly a year now, with the platform's undercarriage undergoing a major re-design with the help of EADS as a technological consultant.

Finally getting some help!


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## S-DUCT

Livefist: DRDO CHIEF INTERVIEW Part1: First Full-Rate Production LCAs This Year
*The first two to three full-rate production LCA Tejas Mk.1 fighters for the Indian Air Force will roll out HAL's production facility in Bangalore in December, marking a major milestone in the trouble's programme's final leg*. The aircraft will be the first of an order of 40 placed by the IAF of the Mk.1 variant slated to enter squadron service by the end of next year.

In an exclusive interview to Livefist, the DRDO's new chief Dr Avinash Chander, said, "I feel very confident that LCA is within a visible range for production start. *The target is that production should start this year. We should see two-three aircraft rolling out this year itself."*

After taking over as the DRDO's new chief last month following years at the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), where he found renown as the spearhead of the Agni strategic missile programme, one of the first things that Dr Chander did in his new capacity was fly down to Bangalore and chair a series of meetings with officials from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), CEMILAC, National Fight Test Centre, HAL and the handful of other agencies involved in the development and certification of the LCA Tejas. His message was simple, yet clear: the air force, and indeed the country, would not wait any longer than the end of next year for the Mk.1. He told them, in no uncertain terms, that the next 18 months needed to be the fight of their lives. No excuses. Tejas needed to leave the DRDO stable, he impressed, because there were bigger, more challenging aircraft to build for the IAF. The DRDO, he told them, simply couldn't be stalled with the programme any longer.

*With over 2,200 test sorties on the board, the Tejas has 140 hours of test flying left before it achieves the second phase of its initial operational clearance (IOC-2), indicates Dr Chander, a special set of test points deferred from the first in January 2011. "The residual tasks are quite minimal. Some weapon release trials we have to do, some modifications we have done need to be tested. The radar has to be tested for operations. A total of 140 hours are planned in the next few months for IOC-2. With that the aircraft will be cleared for production."*

*Final operational clearance (FOC)), the final step before induction into an IAF squadron, is set for November-December 2014. *"We will complete the FOC by 2014 end. There are some issues when you touch the boundaries of performance, which have been identified and come out only during flight test. Those will be rectified. For FOC, there will be a variety of weapons, all weather clearance."

*Right about the time that the Tejas Mk.1 achieves IOC-2, two more naval prototypes will roll out, followed by a first flight before the end of the year. "The test facility is getting ready. I am confident that the LCA Navy will be on schedule," says Dr Chander. The first prototype, which took off in April last year, hasn't flown for nearly a year now, with the platform's undercarriage undergoing a major re-design with the help of EADS as a technological consultant.
*
"The safety record of the Tejas during testing has been absolutely superb. No other aircraft has this record," Dr Chander says with pride.

*The new DRDO chief has asked for an update every alternate day on the LCA programme, and will be briefed by his special team entrusted with keeping things on track over the next 18 months.*

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## kurup



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## sancho

RPK said:


> which took off in April last year, hasn't flown for nearly a year now, with the platform's undercarriage undergoing a major re-design with the help of EADS as a technological consultant.
> 
> Finally getting some help!



 A company with no experience in navalising a fighter, get technological consultancy that also has no or very limited experience in this field as well. What a great idea ADA/DRDO! What should go wrong?

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## S-DUCT

Flight test update

From 

LCA-Tejas has completed *2235* Test Flights Successfully. (*25-June-2013*). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,*LSP3-144*,*LSP4-86*,*LSP5-188*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed *2242* Test Flights Successfully. (*27-June-2013*). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,*LSP3-147*,*LSP4-87*,*LSP5-190*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

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## Mujraparty

Some fighter did a low pass flyby a minute ago (sounded like kuffar plane) by the time i ran outside it disappeared ,it was flying really really low ,car alarms were going crazy & my neighbors came out of their house  ..any Bangaloreans residing around koramangala ..?


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## RPK

Somebody got a twist it seems


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2242 Test Flights Successfully. (27-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-147,LSP4-87,LSP5-190,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2247 Test Flights Successfully. (29-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,*LSP3-148,LSP4-90,LSP5-191*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

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## shree835

*140 hours till LCA achieves IOC-2*

By September, the LCA Tejas will achieve initial operation clearance 2 (IOC-2) and begin moving towards production, according to DRDO Chief Avinash Chander. Revealing that approximately 140 hours of test-flying remained to sort out the residual test-points, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has been asked to stick to a September deadline for IOC-2 and speedily move towards final operational clearance 14 months later.

Starting October this year, the Tejas platforms will be put through a literally endless routine of weather and weapons trials across the country. The Tejas programme was also recently given a non-negotiable ultimatum by Defence Minister A.K. Antony calling for induction into the IAF by next year. As a result, the programme has willy-nilly become the highest priority of the DRDO, and additional resources may be allocated to the programme in terms of manpower, to ensure that it does not stray from its path for even a moment. It has also been recently reported that in an effort to speed up delays in productionisation, series production of aircraft will be undertaken from this year itself, instead of next year as was the original plan.

*Production Lca Tejas aircraft all set for roll out*

According to sources close to idrw.org, first two Production aircrafts of Countries indigenous fighter aircraft Program will be ready soon; both SP-1 and SP-2 are almost ready and will be handed over to IAF once IOC-2 is achieved by Tejas aircrafts.

First Production aircraft is one year behind schedule, but it was told to idrw.org that delays were not due to production issues but due to Tejas Project not achieving IOC-2 standard, aircrafts were built at a slower rate, IAF ordered 20 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts based on IOC-2 Configurations and it was unlikely that IAF could have accepted Production aircrafts without Tejas Project achieving IOC-2.

Defence minister and DRDO chief have promised IOC-2 for Tejas will be achieved by end of this year and Production aircrafts will be handed over to Indian air force at the same time , DRDO and HAL are also trying to deliver two more Production aircrafts by mid of next year .

DRDO is also planning to rollout first prototype of Tejas MK-2 by mid of next year and first flight by end of next year, they are also plans to put Naval Tejas back in air soon, aircraft has been going through intensive changes to its landing gear and undercarriage and will be shifted to Ins Hansa base in Goa for further testing, single seater variant of Naval Tejas is also likely be ready by end of this year.

IAF has placed orders for 20 IOC-2 Tejas MK-1 and 20 FOC Tejas MK-1, while Navy has placed orders for 8 Naval Tejas based on MK-1 configuration but will be ordering up to 40 Naval Tejas MK-2 for carrier operations, while IAF is looking forward to induct more than 80 aircrafts based on Tejas MK-2 but the follow up order will grow to 150 as per sources.

http://idrw.org/?p=23777#more-23777


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## Johny D

LCA and it&#8217;s never ending IOCs!!!...wondering if it is being tested to fight against any omnipotent aliens from Mars...I would rank LCA project as Junk and IAF bosses as arrogant brokers of foreign defence suppliers..


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## shree835

JD_In said:


> LCA and it&#8217;s never ending IOCs!!!...wondering if it is being tested to fight against any omnipotent aliens from Mars...I would rank LCA project as Junk and IAF bosses as arrogant brokers of foreign defence suppliers..



Please do not take Tejas Fighter Aircraft Project as a simple project &#8230;It will make India self dependence&#8230;If something good is going to happen, it takes time&#8230;Do not give up your hope&#8230; 
Proof you can see &#8230;These Chinese and Pakistani guys are getting more frustration as India inching towards success.....Do not forget your signature....*Success is never final, failure is never fatal
*

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## Johny D

shree835 said:


> Please do not take Tejas Fighter Aircraft Project as a simple project It will make India self dependenceIf something good is going to happen, it takes timeDo not give up your hope
> Proof you can see These Chinese and Pakistani guys are getting more frustration as India inching towards success.



Dude, learning is okay but too much learning in class room, labs and even under the open sky under the pretext of learning is not a good sign.learning is never ending process, so lets not expect these folks from DRDO should master everything and then only rollout the LCAhavent we achieved the maturity that LCA can even be inducted as a third generation fighter? 
If we plan to produce our very first fighter jet comparable to best in class in the world, we are making a big mistake by overestimating ourselves and over stretching our goals..

IMO, we should have inducted LCA as G-3 fighter with GE engine couple of years back, and all current efforts and research should have been made for the up-gradation to LCA G-4.

Remember, your work and research dont count until your product or service see the light of live production environment!


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## Beerbal

JD_In said:


> Dude, learning is okay but too much learning in class room, labs and even under the open sky under the pretext of learning is not a good sign&#8230;.learning is never ending process, so lets not expect these folks from DRDO should master everything and then only rollout the LCA&#8230;haven&#8217;t we achieved the maturity that LCA can even be inducted as a third generation fighter?
> If we plan to produce our very first fighter jet comparable to best in class in the world, we are making a big mistake by overestimating ourselves and over stretching our goals..
> 
> IMO, we should have inducted LCA as G-3 fighter with GE engine couple of years back, and all current efforts and research should have been made for the up-gradation to LCA G-4.
> 
> Remember, your work and research don&#8217;t count until your product or service see the light of live production environment!







Then tell IAF to induct LCA in as it is condition... 

Pakistan inducted its co-developed plane without many 4th gen feature. USA is ready to induct F35 with IOC standards (not FoC std).. China inducts J10 and J11 without many 4th gen feature..

IAF is villain, I will recommend to scrap IAF and fire all IAF personal. give 20 Squadron to IN and 20 to IA... IAF is useless..

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## Mujraparty

> &#8220;In the next five years DRDO products will be worth Rs 2 lakh crore. Today we are manufacturing 150 Akash missiles per annum. The production will be stepped up to 2,000 missiles a year. *There is lot of demand from other countries for Akash, LCA and other defence products,*&#8221; said the man behind the development of Agni missiles



Light combat aircraft by this year-end: DRDO chief - The New Indian Express

.......?

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## sancho

Beerbal said:


> Then tell IAF to induct LCA in *as it is condition*...



Without a radar? It is evident that one of the core problems is still the indigenous radar development, that DRDO still seems to hope for. That should be the reason why Derby still is not integrated or tested yet and without IAF logically won't induct it. 
They of course have their share too, but it's naiv to belive that that is the only reason and the recent remarks of the DM wrt ADA and DRDO confirmed that too.


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## Beerbal

sancho said:


> Without a radar? It is evident that one of the core problems is still the indigenous radar development, that DRDO still seems to hope for. That should be the reason why Derby still is not integrated or tested yet and without* IAF logically won't induct it.*
> They of course have their share too, but it's naiv to belive that that is the only reason and the recent remarks of the DM wrt ADA and DRDO confirmed that too.





Don't spread misinformation, Radom has the problem not radar. Elta 2032 (if I am not wrong) is ready, put it in LCA. take 20 LCA (train your pilots, make them familiar with LCA flight envelope). In the mean time Radar and Missile will be integrated with LCA..


That's why I am saying terminate IAF and share 20 - 20 Squardon of Fighter plane each with IA and IN. What is the use of incompetent, arrogant IAF which lack pragmatism.


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## Beerbal

'\.
.
.
IAF officials do party with weapon agents (Dalal), what do you expect from such IAF ? IAF was never serious on LCA... It was Bajpai and Saint Anthony due too whom LCA is here.... 


The defense dalal lobby is very powerful, they can kill us (ppl who are against them), they can sabotage projects (LCA, Arjuna and many) they can delay projects, they can deny programs.. They are more powerful than Prez Obama..

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## sancho

Beerbal said:


> Don't spread misinformation, Radom has the problem not radar. Elta 2032 (if I am not wrong) is ready, put it in LCA. take 20 LCA (train your pilots, make them familiar with LCA flight envelope). In the mean time Radar and Missile will be integrated with LCA..



The Israeli radar is, not our own and none of them is fully integrated yet, otherwise we would alrady have at least made some tests with the Derby's or at least the R77s that initially should be integrated. An nobody will induct a fighter into any force, if the radar is not integrated, most won't even without BVR missiles.
It's on DRDO to provide, then LCA finally can be inducted and if necessary MoD can then add more pressure on IAF, but with this speed up of development and production, IAF already has no points anymore to slow the induction down, more difficult for MK2 is the IN and their requirements.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Without a radar? It is evident that one of the core problems is still the indigenous radar development, that DRDO still seems to hope for. That should be the reason why Derby still is not integrated or tested yet and without IAF logically won't induct it.
> They of course have their share too, but it's naiv to belive that that is the only reason and the recent remarks of the DM wrt ADA and DRDO confirmed that too.



For radar, we can go for 2032, but it seems its dome which limits radar capability need to be rectified immediately as per the latest information.



sancho said:


> The Israeli radar is, not our own and none of them is fully integrated yet, otherwise we would alrady have at least made some tests with the Derby's or at least the R77s that initially should be integrated. *An nobody will induct a fighter into any force, if the radar is not integrated, most won't even without BVR missiles.*
> It's on DRDO to provide, then LCA finally can be inducted and if necessary MoD can then add more pressure on IAF, but with this speed up of development and production, IAF already has no points anymore to slow the induction down, more difficult for MK2 is the IN and their requirements.



Then how PAF inducted JFTs? even IAF will get the SP-1 & SP-2 with IOC2 standard and the BVR integration is FOC achievement only.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> but it seems its dome which limits radar capability need to be rectified immediately as per the latest information.



The dome issues have nothing to do with the EL 2032, but with design and material issues that might limit the performance of any radar. Maybe drag reduction is an aim too, but that's also a problem that needs to be solved for useful induction into service, the sad thing is only, that ADA seems not to be able to solve the issue alone.



rockstar said:


> Then how PAF inducted JFTs? even IAF will get the SP-1 & SP-2 with IOC2 standard and the BVR integration is FOC achievement only.



Full induction of BVR capabilities is needed FOC only, but we didn't even made basic tests to integrated the missiles yet, let alone in combination with a radar and IAF has different requirements than PAF, so you hardly can compared that.


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## indiatester

sancho said:


> Full induction of BVR capabilities is needed FOC only, but we didn't even made basic tests to integrated the missiles yet, let alone in combination with a radar and IAF has different requirements than PAF, so you hardly can compared that.



What missiles are you talking about? I thought R-73 was already tested way back in 2010 IIRC. I presume some more would have been done by now. But then again we are talking about LCA.


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> What missiles are you talking about? I thought R-73 was already tested way back in 2010 IIRC. I presume some more would have been done by now. But then again we are talking about LCA.



R60 and R73 were tested, but both are IR WVR missiles, while no BVR missile was integrated yet, especially the Derby missile IAF and IN intends to use on LCA versions.


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## indiatester

sancho said:


> R60 and R73 were tested, but both are IR WVR missiles, while no BVR missile was integrated yet, especially the Derby missile IAF and IN intends to use on LCA versions.



Is it really that tough to integrate a BVR missile as compared to a WVR missile? I presume the flight characteristics would have been calculated by now.


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## Anony

indiatester said:


> Is it really that tough to integrate a BVR missile as compared to a WVR missile? I presume the flight characteristics would have been calculated by now.



The problem is with the *Radome* and not with *radar*. Large percentage of *transmission loss* has been found which may effect the normal functioning of the radar. Thus it is not wise to perform BVR tests using this problem as there is every chance of a failure.


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## shanixee

Beerbal said:


> Then tell IAF to induct LCA in as it is condition...
> 
> Pakistan inducted its co-developed plane without many 4th gen feature. USA is ready to induct F35 with IOC standards (not FoC std).. China inducts J10 and J11 without many 4th gen feature..
> 
> IAF is villain, I will recommend to scrap IAF and fire all IAF personal. give 20 Squadron to IN and 20 to IA... IAF is useless..



If India has inducted LCA as it is then they probably be in very strong position to recommend the desired changes and advancement in next block...honestly speaking I personally dont understand what India will achieve delaying a induction.

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## Iggy

sancho said:


> A company with no experience in navalising a fighter, get technological consultancy that also has no or very limited experience in this field as well. What a great idea ADA/DRDO! What should go wrong?



You made me laugh and cry at the same time!!

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## Manindra

Beerbal said:


> Don't spread misinformation, Radom has the problem not radar. Elta 2032 (if I am not wrong) is ready, put it in LCA. take 20 LCA (train your pilots, make them familiar with LCA flight envelope). In the mean time Radar and Missile will be integrated with LCA..
> 
> 
> *That's why I am saying terminate IAF and share 20 - 20 Squardon of Fighter plane each with IA and IN.* What is the use of incompetent, arrogant IAF which lack pragmatism.



Aap phir shuru ho gaye 
Wait brother , Saint Antony give final ultimatum to achieve FOC of Tejas till December 2014 if they fail to this then we both attack on DRDO & IAF

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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Is it really that tough to integrate a BVR missile as compared to a WVR missile? I presume the flight characteristics would have been calculated by now.



The missile will require the radar to guide it and when that is not ready yet it will further delay the BVR missile integration too.



Anony said:


> The problem is with the *Radome* and not with *radar*.



If the radar would be ready now, we would upgrade the Jags with it and don't buy further EL 2032, which most likely will be the radar of LCA MK1 as well.

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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

shanixee said:


> If India has inducted LCA as it is then they probably be in very strong position to recommend the desired changes and advancement in next block...honestly speaking I personally dont understand what India will achieve delaying a induction.



huge commission for iaf officers, top babus and some of our tv,papers,pdf lobbyist and campaigners

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## Beerbal

tharkibuddha said:


> huge commission for *iaf officers, top babus and some of our tv,papers,pdf lobbyist *and campaigners





They have invaded PDF as well, I can see many here speaking there language...

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## S-DUCT

Flight test update

From 

LCA-Tejas has completed *2247* Test Flights Successfully. (*29-June-2013*). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,*LSP3-148*,LSP4-90,*LSP5-191*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)


to

LCA-Tejas has completed *2253* Test Flights Successfully. (*02-July-2013*). 
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,*LSP3-151*,LSP4-90,*LSP5-194*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

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## SR-91

On june 21 LSP8 completed 12 flights
june 23 LSP8 completed 13 flights
june 24 LSP8 completed 15 flights .........2 flights in a day

It has been 10 days since it last flew.Whats going on with LSP 7,havent flew since jun 25th?
How much time does a plane spend on ground after its flight?


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## Sergi

SR-91 said:


> On june 21 LSP8 completed 12 flights
> june 23 LSP8 completed 13 flights
> june 24 LSP8 completed 15 flights .........2 flights in a day
> 
> It has been 10 days since it last flew.Whats going on with LSP 7,havent flew since jun 25th?
> How much time does a plane spend on ground after its flight?



LSP-7 and 8 will be going to IAF for IOC-2. So it could be under modification

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## jamesseo89

So any chances of IAF seeing some Grippen NGs???


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## Sergi

jamesseo89 said:


> So any chances of IAF seeing some Grippen NGs???



Any reasons why you ask this ???
Fake ID of our Pak friend Nishan who loves shopping or just increasing post count ???


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## Roybot




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## jamesseo89

How much LCA Mark1 in IAF and I have heard that its going hard times with it again and also hearing the interest of IAF in MiG-35s along with some older MiG-29s from Russia with upgrades.

Can you tell me what is the current fleet of IAFs MiG-29s...???

Just what I know that IAF might have 69 MiG-29s and they might have bought some more from Russia(old ones) with upgrades to make the fleet to 92-100 now???
But not confirmed at all.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2253 Test Flights Successfully. (02-July-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-151,LSP4-90,LSP5-194,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2259 Test Flights Successfully. (05-July-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-366*,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,*LSP3-153*,LSP4-90,*LSP5-196*,LSP7-48,NP1-4,*LSP8-16*)

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## sancho

jamesseo89 said:


> How much LCA Mark1 in IAF and I have heard that its going hard times with it again and also hearing the interest of IAF in MiG-35s along with some older MiG-29s from Russia with upgrades.
> 
> Can you tell me what is the current fleet of IAFs MiG-29s...???
> 
> Just what I know that IAF might have 69 MiG-29s and they might have bought some more from Russia(old ones) with upgrades to make the fleet to 92-100 now???
> But not confirmed at all.



- 2 x squadrons of LCA MK1 are ordered, but will be inducted around 2015 only
- IAF has around 60 x Mig 29s, which will be upgraded to UPG level and there won't be more
- no chance for Gripen, since it's in the same class as LCA, with similar capabilities and even the same timeframe, the version with AESA will be available only around 2018, similar to LCA MK2


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## jamesseo89

sancho said:


> - 2 x squadrons of LCA MK1 are ordered, but will be inducted around 2015 only
> - IAF has around 60 x Mig 29s, which will be upgraded to UPG level and there won't be more
> - no chance for Gripen, since it's in the same class as LCA, with similar capabilities and even the same timeframe, the version with AESA will be available only around 2018, similar to LCA MK2



But we have heard that IAF is getting more interested in MiG-35s and may be they will going to be offered some used MiG-29s from Russia as well.

But I think IAF will going to see some MiG-35s as its still under development:
Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SRP

jamesseo89 said:


> But we have heard that IAF is getting more interested in MiG-35s and may be they will going to be offered some used MiG-29s from Russia as well.
> 
> But I think IAF will going to see some MiG-35s as its still under development:
> Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Where did you heard it? From PDF fan boys??? lol

There is no chance of mig 35 in IAF as they lost the mmrca competition and we are not going to buy old mig29s from Russia. So don't ask the same question again.


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## jamesseo89

So what about MMRCA?

I think IAF like both Rafale and EF-2000s, though heard that the requirements from IAF is about 200+(might be 300 in total due to lack of availability of LCA in coming future too.) So what would you say for that.


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## SRP

jamesseo89 said:


> So what about MMRCA?
> 
> I think IAF like both Rafale and EF-2000s, though heard that the requirements from IAF is about 200+(might be 300 in total due to lack of availability of LCA in coming future too.) So what would you say for that.



If you want to know about MMRCA competition, go to MMRCA thread. 

As far as LCA concerned 40mk1 ordered(20 IOC standard, 20 FOC standard). We can see LCA mk2 over 100 numbers as 99 engines ordered from US.


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## sancho

jamesseo89 said:


> But we have heard that IAF is getting more interested in MiG-35s and may be they will going to be offered some used MiG-29s from Russia as well.



No, we have heared that the Russians keep offering it to India, not that IAF wants it.


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> No, we have heared that the Russians keep offering it to India, not that IAF wants it.



IAF loves it's MiG 29s. After the SMT upgrade they love it more. So there will be no qualms from IAF if the MiG 35s are given a go ahead from the government.


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## Manindra

satishkumarcsc said:


> IAF loves it's MiG 29s. After the SMT upgrade they love it more. So there will be no qualms from IAF if the MiG 35s are given a go ahead from the government.



No, if Dassault lose the chance then we go to 2nd bidder EF. MIG-35 is in 3rd third priority list.


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## Abingdonboy

satishkumarcsc said:


> IAF loves it's MiG 29s. After the SMT upgrade they love it more. So there will be no qualms from IAF if the MiG 35s are given a go ahead from the government.



Don't be silly- the MIG-35 wasn't even shortlisted- it failed much of the passing criteria. Th eonly reason the IAF likes the MIG-29UPGs are because of the significant improvement over the MIG-29Bs and that these UPGs are now a very good platform for the price. However when comparing the UPG to the Rafale or EFT the UPG and -35 aren't quite on the mark.


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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> Don't be silly- the MIG-35 wasn't even shortlisted- it failed much of the passing criteria. Th eonly reason the IAF likes the MIG-29UPGs are because of the significant improvement over the MIG-29Bs and that these UPGs are now a very good platform for the price. However when comparing the UPG to the Rafale or EFT the UPG and -35 aren't quite on the mark.



@Abingdonboy; Well that is certainly one of the reasons why the MiG-35 faded out of consideration. But the bigger reason is that: in the MRCA play-off; the IAF was looking not just for an aircraft but for an entire Weapons Platform and Package. That is really the part that pushed the MiG-35 out of the reckoning.

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## Abingdonboy

Capt.Popeye said:


> @Abingdonboy; Well that is certainly one of the reasons why the MiG-35 faded out of consideration. But the bigger reason is that: in the MRCA play-off; the IAF was looking not just for an aircraft but for an entire Weapons Platform and Package. That is really the part that pushed the MiG-35 out of the reckoning.



Indeed and the MIG-35 doens't bring anything particularly new to the table, leaving aside its radar and optronics, that the IAF and IN aren't getting with their MIG-29UPG and K/KUB respectively.


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## Jayanta

Manindra said:


> Aap phir shuru ho gaye
> Wait brother , Saint Antony give final ultimatum to achieve FOC of Tejas till December 2014 if they fail to this then we both attack on DRDO & IAF



I think the DRDO officials are least worried about the ultimatum, because elections are before December 2014 and then Saint Antony will be history.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> IAF loves it's MiG 29s. After the SMT upgrade they love it more. So there will be no qualms from IAF if the MiG 35s are given a go ahead from the government.



Wrong, they liked the once they have, but don't wanted to add more. That's why they prefered additional M2Ks, be it 2nd hand once or new once in the first MRCA competition, over Mig 29SMTs, or why they rejected the Mig 35 in the M-MRCA. The time of the Mig is simply over, especially in IAF!


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## Manindra

Jayanta said:


> I think the DRDO officials are least worried about the ultimatum, because elections are before December 2014 and then Saint Antony will be history.



Defence, foreign & finance policy is not child play which you change according to your wish. Btw Antony tenure's end in 2014 so he gives such timeframe to achieve those task. If next government form by other allience then their defence minister also take Antony's path or may be more strict to gain the title of father of Indian defence Industry which foundation laid by A.K. Antony.

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## jamesseo89

satishkumarcsc said:


> IAF loves it's MiG 29s. After the SMT upgrade they love it more. So there will be no qualms from IAF if the MiG 35s are given a go ahead from the government.



I think MiG-35 will be acquired as a separate acquisition. And for MMRCA I think but not sure that 100+ Rafale and 100+ Ef-2000 will be acquired.


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## satishkumarcsc

jamesseo89 said:


> I think MiG-35 will be acquired as a separate acquisition. And for MMRCA I think but not sure that 100+ Rafale and 100+ Ef-2000 will be acquired.



That order will never be split and we got the perfect multirole aircraft that suited out needs. But in my opinion the MiG 35 is a very good air superiority platform compared to the the rest of the competitors and that was one of the main reasons it lost.


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## jamesseo89

But No MiG-35 will ever come to IAF in MMRCA only things are Rafael and EF-2000 in combine form might come to IAF and F/A-18E-F are exceptioncal cases too.

And if LCA will delay more than its possible that Taiwan and France will going to offer their Mirage-2000s to IAF...


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## satishkumarcsc

jamesseo89 said:


> But No MiG-35 will ever come to IAF in MMRCA only things are Rafael and EF-2000 in combine form might come to IAF and F/A-18E-F are exceptioncal cases too.
> 
> And if LCA will delay more than its possible that Taiwan and France will going to offer their Mirage-2000s to IAF...



Well the original MMRCA was for the Mirage 2k but the MoD dragged their feet so long that the Mirage 2k production lines were closed.


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## jamesseo89

OK. So things are clear now.


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## Jayanta

Manindra said:


> Defence, foreign & finance policy is not child play which you change according to your wish. Btw Antony tenure's end in 2014 so he gives such timeframe to achieve those task. If next government form by other allience then their defence minister also take Antony's path or may be more strict to gain the title of father of Indian defence Industry which foundation laid by A.K. Antony.



I wish this was the story. Antony has been the Defense Minister for a major period of the UPA rule. He woke up too late, if this seriousness was shown at the beginning things might have improved. Any way lets see whats in store.


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## Manindra

Jayanta said:


> I wish this was the story. Antony has been the Defense Minister for a major period of the UPA rule. He woke up too late, if this seriousness was shown at the beginning things might have improved. Any way lets see whats in store.



Its your opinion that he wake up but he is already awaken but he give DRDO free hand to work in which they achieve semi-success then Antony tight nuts of DRDO. People criticise Antony for delaying deals but do you think if people does not spare soldiers coffin then what happen to MMRCA. He make tough bargaining from competitors. He is one of minister of UPA who I have heartly respect.


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## Jayanta

Manindra said:


> Its your opinion that he wake up but he is already awaken but he give DRDO free hand to work in which they achieve semi-success then Antony tight nuts of DRDO. People criticise Antony for delaying deals but do you think if people does not spare soldiers coffin then what happen to MMRCA. He make tough bargaining from competitors. He is one of minister of UPA who I have heartly respect.



Well you cannot dictate people personal opinion, with Antony's caliber may be people had high hopes. Two consecutive terms means 10 years almost a decade....and I think its a long time.


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## Manindra

Jayanta said:


> Well you cannot dictate people personal opinion, with Antony's caliber may be people had high hopes. Two consecutive terms means 10 years almost a decade....and I think its a long time.



I don't have intention to change other people's opinion. He takes 10 years to lay foundation of Indian defence industry then after you take pride of their building. He make tough bargain in MMRCA if you think a corrupt man can trash all the main purpose of this tender to acheive latest aerospace technology & create industrial base for it. You can criticise him today but I am sure tommorrow you will praise him for his work for Indian defence industry.

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## ziaulislam

shanixee said:


> If India has inducted LCA as it is then they probably be in very strong position to recommend the desired changes and advancement in next block...honestly speaking I personally dont understand what India will achieve delaying a induction.



Had LCA been inducted back in 2008-09 the MRCA would had become pretty much pointless
problem is that LCA was devised in 80s to replace mig 21 however during early 2000s india realised that LCA is no longer useful to them because of its limted range and ammunition..its just like china doesnt want to induct JF-17

LCA did offer alot in the 80s and 90s to interest IAF but these days IAF needs something with longer range and payload. As neither its resources are limited nor its geography permits its to operate very light aircrafts
even if LCA is inducted now the number will be limted to around 100 while originally it was thought that LCA willl replace most of mig 21s i.e atleast 200-300 in number however now the a big bulk will taken up by the MRCA


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## proud_indian

ziaulislam said:


> Had LCA been inducted back in 2008-09 the MRCA would had become pretty much pointless
> problem is that LCA was devised in 80s to replace mig 21 however during early 2000s india realised that LCA is no longer useful to them because of its limted range and ammunition..its just like china doesnt want to induct JF-17
> 
> LCA did offer alot in the 80s and 90s to interest IAF but these days IAF needs something with longer range and payload. As neither its resources are limited nor its geography permits its to operate very light aircrafts
> even if LCA is inducted now the number will be limted to around 100 while originally it was thought that LCA willl replace most of mig 21s i.e atleast 200-300 in number however now the a big bulk will taken up by the MRCA



how r u so sure about that 100 number?

we already have a plan to induct 180 tejas in next 12 years and i m sure we will end up with 300 + tejas in different tranches


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## shanixee

ziaulislam said:


> Had LCA been inducted back in 2008-09 the MRCA would had become pretty much pointless
> problem is that LCA was devised in 80s to replace mig 21 however during early 2000s india realised that LCA is no longer useful to them because of its limted range and ammunition..its just like china doesnt want to induct JF-17
> 
> LCA did offer alot in the 80s and 90s to interest IAF but these days IAF needs something with longer range and payload. As neither its resources are limited nor its geography permits its to operate very light aircrafts
> even if LCA is inducted now the number will be limted to around 100 while originally it was thought that LCA willl replace most of mig 21s i.e atleast 200-300 in number however now the a big bulk will taken up by the MRCA



Dear Friend i agree with each and every word you say but when i said advancement what i exectly mean changes india can make just like the changes US made in F16.. your right if its been inducted in 80 or maybe in 90s it would have become a very lethal till now


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## sancho

shanixee said:


> Dear Friend i agree with each and every word you say but when i said advancement what i exectly mean changes india can make just like the changes US made in F16.. your right if its been inducted in 80 or maybe in 90s it would have become a very lethal till now



LCA was developed with a good potential in mind (materials, coatings, avionics...), the delays might eat up some of it, but still will be capable enough for the future. The most important point however is the industrial side, not the operational one and that's why it has to be developed till the end for sure to get the most out of it. 
Btw, the development started only in the 80/90s so how should it be inducted by then?

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## SRP

LCA-Tejas has completed 2265 Test Flights Successfully. (09-July-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-275,PV5-36,LSP3-154,LSP4-90,LSP5-196,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-17) 

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2259 Test Flights Successfully. (05-July-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-153,LSP4-90,LSP5-196,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-16)


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## proud_indian

desert warrior said:


> LCA-Tejas has completed *2265* Test Flights Successfully. (09-July-2013).
> 
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,*LSP2-275*,PV5-36,*LSP3-154*,LSP4-90,LSP5-196,*LSP7-51*,NP1-4,*LSP8-17*)
> 
> from
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed *2259* Test Flights Successfully. (05-July-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-153,LSP4-90,LSP5-196,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-16)



a little more specific

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## shanixee

sancho said:


> LCA was developed with a good potential in mind (materials, coatings, avionics...), the delays might eat up some of it, but still will be capable enough for the future. The most important point however is the industrial side, not the operational one and that's why it has to be developed till the end for sure to get the most out of it.
> Btw, the development started only in the 80/90s so how should it be inducted by then?



This project was initiated in 1983


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## Abingdonboy

shanixee said:


> This project was initiated in 1983



Funding was only released in earnest in the mid-90s.

Before then it was merely feasiblity study after feasibility study.

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## SRP

LCA-Tejas has completed 2267 Test Flights Successfully. (10-July-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-275,PV5-36,LSP3-154,LSP4-90,LSP5-198,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-17)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2265 Test Flights Successfully. (09-July-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-275,PV5-36,LSP3-154,LSP4-90,LSP5-196,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-17)


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## Nexus

GR8 news ! congrats HAL !!


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## SRP

Nexus said:


> GR8 news ! congrats HAL !!



What is the news? What are you cheering for?


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## Anony

desert warrior said:


> What is the news? What are you cheering for?



New to this forum. Probably new to defence forum as well Cheering on *2267 successful sorties* completed by Tejas
@Nexus *Welcome dude*

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## Nexus

Anony said:


> New to this forum. Probably new to defence forum as well Cheering on *2267 successful sorties* completed by Tejas
> @Nexus *Welcome dude*



thanks


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## SRP

Anony said:


> New to this forum. Probably new to defence forum as well Cheering on *2267 successful sorties* completed by Tejas
> @Nexus *Welcome dude*



Ohh I see. I thought he got some big news about LCA. 

BTW welcome dude @Nexus

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## Nexus

desert warrior said:


> Ohh I see. I thought he got some big news about LCA.
> 
> BTW welcome dude @Nexus



thanks. 

thanks @desert warrior @Anony

nice to get Tag power !!!

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## sudhir007

new look of LCA website
Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft | Official Website

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## Roybot



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## Gessler

^^Check this out.

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## Anony

*Tejas with full payload.*

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## Anony

Anony said:


>



What is this *1200kg load at station 4* is signifying.


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## anonymous_bot

Anony said:


> What is this *1200kg load at station 4* is signifying.



I guess it is the centerline hardpoint...



Anony said:


> What is this *1200kg load at station 4* is signifying.



I guess it is the centerline hardpoint...


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## Jayanta

Any news of the MK-2 prototype.


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## SR-91

Jayanta said:


> Any news of the MK-2 prototype.



HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and qualification of certain LRUs required for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first prototype aircraft is slated for built during 2013-14, while series productions are planned for inducting to fleet which is stated to be taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


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## satishkumarcsc

Jayanta said:


> Any news of the MK-2 prototype.



The engine itself is not ready yet. Will be arriving late next year.


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## That Guy

Is the weight of the LCA still a problem? Was it ever fixed?


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## Shabz Nist

That Guy said:


> Is the weight of the LCA still a problem? Was it ever fixed?


I don't remember the weight ever being a problem. 
source ?


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## That Guy

Shabz Nist said:


> I don't remember the weight ever being a problem.
> source ?



It was apparently, something to do with the LCA being overweight. I can't remember properly, but the last time I asked in the indian section, the weight problem came up.


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## Anony

That Guy said:


> It was apparently, something to do with the LCA being overweight. I can't remember properly, but the last time I asked in the indian section, the weight problem came up.



LCA's empty weight is *5450kg* now.

Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter - Airforce Technology


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## That Guy

Anony said:


> LCA's empty weight is *5450kg* now.
> 
> Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter - Airforce Technology



cool, how'd the engineering team manage to pull that off? Did they remove some of the plating or something?


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## Anony

That Guy said:


> cool, how'd the engineering team manage to pull that off? Did they remove some of the plating or something?



*No idea on that dude*. But I know in 2011 LCA mk-1 was close to 5.7 ton. After that they planned to make certain changes in production which will need them *to drill only 2000 holes instead of 10,000 at that point of time.*

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## S-DUCT

That Guy said:


> Is the weight of the LCA still a problem? Was it ever fixed?


IIRC,LCA navy has weight problem and it's being fixed with help from EADS.

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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> IIRC,LCA navy has weight problem and it's being fixed with help from EADS.



True, but mainly wrt the landinging gear, which ADA/DRDO designed too massive. The LCA as a whole never had weight problems, since it's still comparable to similar fighters in it's class, but the original goal of the project was 1t lower.
The weight definitely is not below 6t like Anony thinks, in fact all officials specs still hints to around 6.5t emptyweight, but the real problem seems to be drag, since all modifications in the recent LSP version had gone in that direction.

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## vsdave2302

When LCA was grounded for 3 months, I recall an official statement that there were some changes in ejection seat and replacement of some heavy LRUS with light ones. The extensive use of Composite should make it light in weight. 6.5 T was the weight of 2003 model. I remember some member providing a link stating that weight is 5.8 T. Can somebody tell that to what extent the Drag problem is resolved?

Ajay shukla had written in his famous article that it flies at Mach 1.6. Has the speed been increased? (Either because of Drag reduction or opening up of flight envelope?)


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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> When LCA was grounded for 3 months, I recall an official statement that there were some changes in ejection seat and replacement of some heavy LRUS with light ones. The extensive use of Composite should make it light in weight. 6.5 T was the weight of 2003 model. I remember some member providing a link stating that weight is 5.8 T. Can somebody tell that to what extent the Drag problem is resolved?
> 
> Ajay shukla had written in his famous article that it flies at Mach 1.6. Has the speed been increased? (Either because of Drag reduction or opening up of flight envelope?)



The official website still shows Mach 1.6:

LCA Tejas - Specifications: Leading Particulars and Performance


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## vsdave2302

sancho said:


> The official website still shows Mach 1.6:
> 
> LCA Tejas - Specifications: Leading Particulars and Performance



Thank you Sancho but do not you think that it is too low & should be at least Mach 1.8. Our Jaguar & Mig 27 has much higher speed with a comparatively less powerful engine. Is it because of Drag? I heard that LCA MK2 will have more refined aerodynamic & 3 % performance improvement will come from It. isn't 3% too low? Can LCA Mach 1 will ever touch Mach 1.8? I also see LCA take some more time to get air born compare to grippen though It gains speed rapidly. Is it because of lack of Canard?

One more question. Will LCA be able to match the performance go Grippen?


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## SRP

LCA-Tejas has completed 2270 Test Flights Successfully. (15-July-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-275,PV5-36,LSP3-155,LSP4-90,LSP5-198,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-19)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2267 Test Flights Successfully. (10-July-2013).


(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-366,LSP1-74,LSP2-275,PV5-36,LSP3-154,LSP4-90,LSP5-198,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-17)


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## vsdave2302

Self deleted


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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> Thank you Sancho but do not you think that it is too low & should be at least Mach 1.8. Our Jaguar & Mig 27 has much higher speed with a comparatively less powerful engine. Is it because of Drag? I heard that LCA MK2 will have more refined aerodynamic & 3 % performance improvement will come from It. isn't 3% too low? Can LCA Mach 1 will ever touch Mach 1.8? I also see LCA take some more time to get air born compare to grippen though It gains speed rapidly. Is it because of lack of Canard?
> 
> One more question. Will LCA be able to match the performance go Grippen?



Mach 1.8 was the goal, but they didn't seemed to reach it yet, some reports suggested the small but rather thick wings as a possible problem. Most of the drag reduction features that the MK2 will have, are already implemented in the latest LSP version, like the new APU coverings, or some changes at air intakes. Drag is sadly a general problem for our designs as it seems, since most of our aircrafts are facing the same problems (see the latest changes of LCH for example). So finding thigs to counter that, next to weight reductions and increased thrust will be important to reach the initial goals.

LCA MK2 will have several capabilities that are similar to Gripen NG, be it the same engine, AESA radar, but the Gripen NG is meant to be a medium class 4.5 gen fighter and therfor includes changes to carry higher loads too. LCA MK2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter too, but still aimed on the light class. Without additional hardpoints, or more internal fuel carriage, it won't be able to have similar loads like the Gripen. But then again, it don't have to, since IAF has way better platforms for these roles. As an interceptor with CAS capabilities, it will be very comparable to the Gripen again, but we will have to wait for all details of the MK2 till we can say more.


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## vsdave2302

Sancho Ji Thank you very much once again. I had read that wings are draggy. Are they going to redesign them in MK2? Actual MK 2 is also not the design the scientist want. But major redesign will delay the project further so they want a minimum changes. For example optimum fuselage extension is 1 to 1.5 m but they are increasing it only by 0.5 m in order to avoid long testing cycle. 

Sancho don't you think that wing is too large for the aircraft of this size? isn't the large wing a main hurdle in achieving good sustained turn rate?

I see a major difference in wing root in old white prototype and LSPs in which the wing take a dip in angle near fuselage? can Sancho or any body explain why? I see that MK2 is once again going to have the same wings as PV. Can MK 1's wing can be redesign and updated later on?

Will Mk2 cross Mach 2?


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## Black Widow

That Guy said:


> It was apparently, something to do with the LCA being overweight. I can't remember properly, but the last time I asked in the indian section, the weight problem came up.





Yes it was 600 Kg overweight.. I think that will be taken care in LCA MKII.. I have not come across any forum where it says that it was rectified...



Anony said:


> LCA's empty weight is *5450kg* now.
> 
> Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter - Airforce Technology





Thanks for correcting me, If this figure is correct then I can assume the weight issue has been taken care..

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## Black Widow

vsdave2302 said:


> Thank you Sancho but do not you think that it is too low & should be at least Mach 1.8. Our Jaguar & Mig 27 has much higher speed with a comparatively less powerful engine. Is it because of Drag? I heard that LCA MK2 will have more refined aerodynamic & 3 % performance improvement will come from It. isn't 3% too low? Can LCA Mach 1 will ever touch Mach 1.8? I also see LCA take some more time to get air born compare to grippen though It gains speed rapidly. Is it because of lack of Canard?
> 
> One more question. Will LCA be able to match the performance go Grippen?






I am not sure if HAL/DRDO has tested it at full speed. Wait till we come to any conclusion.. 


Though its offopic: The handling of plane at higher speed is become difficult. In Vietnam war Mach 2.0 F4s were proven fail to MiG19 (correction needed). 

As it will be point defense fighter LCA must have speed of Mach 2.0 and better accelaration, which I assume will be achieved soon.



sancho said:


> *Mach 1.8 was the goal, but they didn't seemed to reach it yet*, some reports suggested the small but rather thick wings as a possible problem. Most of the drag reduction features that the MK2 will have, are already implemented in the latest LSP version, like the new APU coverings, or some changes at air intakes. Drag is sadly a general problem for our designs as it seems, since most of our aircrafts are facing the same problems (see the latest changes of LCH for example). So finding thigs to counter that, next to weight reductions and increased thrust will be important to reach the initial goals.
> 
> LCA MK2 will have several capabilities that are similar to Gripen NG, be it the same engine, AESA radar, but the Gripen NG is meant to be a medium class 4.5 gen fighter and therfor includes changes to carry higher loads too. LCA MK2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter too, but still aimed on the light class. Without additional hardpoints, or more internal fuel carriage, it won't be able to have similar loads like the Gripen. But then again, it don't have to, since IAF has way better platforms for these roles. As an interceptor with CAS capabilities, it will be very comparable to the Gripen again, but we will have to wait for all details of the MK2 till we can say more.






We can not be so conclusive yet. wait for complete trail...

trial * .


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## Srinivas

That Guy said:


> Is the weight of the LCA still a problem? Was it ever fixed?



it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.



That Guy said:


> Is the weight of the LCA still a problem? Was it ever fixed?



it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> We can not be so conclusive yet. wait for complete trail...
> 
> trial * .



I am refering to official specs, be it the official LCA site, or the ADA specs shows Mach 1.6 as maximum speed:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ypw_Ma1gug/TVeFu_sULnI/AAAAAAAAAHM/zKh2MylRys4/s1600/DSC03688.JPG


If that will be improved, great but these are the most reliable sources we have right now.

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## sudhir007

*Jamnagar Detachment- July 2013 - LSP-3, LSP-5, LSP-7*

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## rockstarIN

Nice to see the air brakes in LCA..!

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## vsdave2302

Srinivas said:


> it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.
> 
> 
> 
> it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.



First prototype of LCH was over weight by 500 Kg but 200-300 KG was slashed down in second prototype. It is planned to bring it at Par with designed weight by the start of normal production.


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## vsdave2302

@sancho and others

Can LCA MK1 Supercruse ? If not than LCA MK2 will? What will be the highest speed at which it can fly without using after burner?

Thanks


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## indian_foxhound

[img[http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Gallery/Jamnagar-Detachment-2013/i-tMdffkV/0/XL/Before_TO%40Night-XL.jpg[/img]

[img[http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Gallery/Jamnagar-Detachment-2013/i-tMdffkV/0/XL/Before_TO%40Night-XL.jpg[/img]



sudhir007 said:


> *Jamnagar Detachment- July 2013 - LSP-3, LSP-5, LSP-7*



okhy i was about to post it....... thanks


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## Manindra

Srinivas said:


> it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.
> 
> 
> 
> it is LCH not LCA that has weight issues.



LCA also have overweight problem which partialy rectified.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> LCA also have overweight problem which partialy rectified.



Do you have any source? DO you know the actual weight of LSP8? Do you know High AOA trial begun? When are they going to begin? Or they are to be carried out in FOC? Will MK 2 reach AOA 28 degree or More? Is there any plan for canard LCA either for navy or IAF? 

Sanco ji PL Help.


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Do you have any source? DO you know the actual weight of LSP8? Do you know High AOA trial begun? When are they going to begin? Or they are to be carried out in FOC? Will MK 2 reach AOA 28 degree or More? Is there any plan for canard LCA either for navy or IAF?
> 
> Sanco ji PL Help.



I am currently use PDF through cellphone so I will post source later.
Actual weight of LSP8 is not official but it is expected to slightly 200-300kg overweight to planned.

Mk1 has planned AOA is 24 degree & currently it has 22 degree & hope target would be achieved till FOC

MK2 has plan for 28 degree AOA but we should for real specification untill first prototype rolled out.

There are no plan of canards for any LCA version.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> I am currently use PDF through cellphone so I will post source later.
> Actual weight of LSP8 is not official but it is expected to slightly 200-300kg overweight to planned.
> 
> Mk1 has planned AOA is 24 degree & currently it has 22 degree & hope target would be achieved till FOC
> 
> MK2 has plan for 28 degree AOA but we should for real specification untill first prototype rolled out.
> 
> There are no plan of canards for any LCA version.



Thanks.

Can you pl tell me the highest speed struck by LCA till date?

Can you pl tell me whether it can super cruse?


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you pl tell me the highest speed struck by LCA till date?
> 
> Can you pl tell me whether it can super cruse?



Currently its maximum speed is 1.4 mach & target is 1.6 till FOC. Probabaly MK2 have 1.8 mach speed.

No, LCA does not have supercruise capability in MK1 version. For MK2 we have to wait & watch official specification disclosure of its first prototype.


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## Black Widow

vsdave2302 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you pl tell me the highest speed struck by LCA till date?
> 
> Can you pl tell me whether it can super cruse?




MK-I
Current AoA 22 degree 
Weight : Under control , some 2 year ago it was 600-700 kg heavier, look like that problem has been solved (open 2 year old discussion on BharatRakshak you will find this issue)
High speed: 1.4 Mach achieved till date..
Super cruise : No as per my info no supercruise tested for MK-I
Night flying capability: I personaly witness LCA night flight so there is no doubt on it
Weapons trial: Dumb bomb tested at chitradurga range
SRAAM was tested in Goa, Flight flutter test was done in goa, High altitude trial was done in Laddak, Humid weather trial was done in Goa
Radar: some glitch came in Radome (The cone which hold radar) which will be rectified soon..


As Manindra suggest LSP8 is just 200-300 Kg overweight, I am happy that DRDO/HAL reduced almost 500 KG (earlier it was 600-800 kg heavier)..


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## Sri

Thanks... Weight mentioned seems to be closer to what Ajay shukla mentioned earlier.
_
The LCA&#8217;s designers say that the removal of telemetry instrumentation, which is essential during flight testing, will bring the Tejas&#8217; weight down by as much as 300-400 kilos. Re-engineering some of the displays and sub-systems within the cockpit will lop off another 300 kilos; the weight reduction of 600-700 kilos is expected to allow the carriage of more weapons.

There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas&#8217; weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons&#8230; carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.

But there&#8217;s a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So you&#8217;ll have to shed one ton&#8230; or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. That&#8217;s what happens when a fighter&#8217;s weight goes beyond what was originally planned.

So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament._


Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine

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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> @sancho and others
> 
> Can LCA MK1 Supercruse ? If not than LCA MK2 will? What will be the highest speed at which it can fly without using after burner?
> 
> Thanks



No it can't, LCA MK2 should have the same Mach 1.8 goal, but if SC is possible is not clear especially with the drag issues and the high temps in India. Let's wait and see.



Black Widow said:


> Weight : Under control , some 2 year ago it was 600-700 kg heavier, look like that problem has been solved (open 2 year old discussion on BharatRakshak you will find this issue)
> High speed: 1.4 Mach achieved till date..



And forum talk on BR is a more reliable source than ADA's and GoI's official specs? As shown in post #7756, Mach 1.6 was achieved at ceilling altitude (15Km) and the weight in 2011 was 6560Kg (1t higher than planned). The even newer government site shows a clean take off weight of 9500Kg, with around 2500Kg internal fuel, some other fluids and the weight of the pilot, it should be clear that the empty weight is still well above 6000Kg.

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## RPK

Aeronautical Development Agency, the DRDO lab, which has built Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft, in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is confident that it will be able to adhere to the September, 2013, deadline for gaining Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC 2). The DRDO official spokesperson, Ravi Gupta in a written response to a questionnaire, said: &#8216;The action plan to complete the flight test activities to achieve the IOC-2 certification is in progress and reviewed on weekly target basis. Eight aircrafts are functional in flight Line to complete the flight tests. We will be able to achieve the deadline of end-September &#8217;13 for IOC 2.&#8217; The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011, as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed: 

&#8216;The IAF had sought &#8230; improvements, mostly aiming at enhancing performance and reliability under extreme conditions. These included improvements in Pilot-Vehicle Interface, Brake Management System, Landing Gear, Fuel Systems, mid-air Escape systems and some aspects of Flight Control Laws. The IAF had also sought few design improvements for easier aircraft maintenance. Majority of improvements are implemented and incorporated in one of the LSP aircraft.&#8217;

*DRDO confident of meeting Op clearance deadline for Tejas | Millennium Post*

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## Sri

Looks interesting... First they asked for extension to Nov 2013 and now they are confident that they can complete by Sep 13. 
If ADA had followed this approach earlier then LCA would have been in Service.


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## sms

RPK said:


> * The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011,* as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed:



Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!

Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC

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## Black Widow

sms said:


> Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!
> 
> Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC




I wish DRDO/ADA should start working on kick back, 1% to politician, 1% to bureaucrats and rest 1% to IAF officials.. They are trying there level best to sabotage LCA.. Point is simple, if DRDO and ADA can make fighter plane, there income will seize... 

As ADA is government agency they are unable to take tough decision. I propose ADA to sue IAF for shifting goal posts.. ADA should change its work-style. They take order from IAF with a condition that the goal-post/requirement will not change once freeze, and IAF will be bound to take the orders they have given..

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## indian_foxhound



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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> I wish DRDO/ADA should start working on kick back, 1% to politician, 1% to bureaucrats and rest 1% to IAF officials.. They are trying there level best to sabotage LCA.. Point is simple, if DRDO and ADA can make fighter plane, there income will seize...
> 
> As ADA is government agency they are unable to take tough decision. I propose ADA to sue IAF for shifting goal posts.. ADA should change its work-style. They take order from IAF with a condition that the goal-post/requirement will not change once freeze, and IAF will be bound to take the orders they have given..



Give it to test in Is AF and they may be call it 'desert fighter' then only our beloved IAF will accept it, just like Arjun.

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## Manindra

RPK said:


> Aeronautical Development Agency, the DRDO lab, which has built Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft, in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is confident that it will be able to adhere to the September, 2013, deadline for gaining Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC 2). The DRDO official spokesperson, Ravi Gupta in a written response to a questionnaire, said: The action plan to complete the flight test activities to achieve the IOC-2 certification is in progress and reviewed on weekly target basis. Eight aircrafts are functional in flight Line to complete the flight tests. We will be able to achieve the deadline of end-September 13 for IOC 2. The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011, as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed:
> 
> The IAF had sought  improvements, mostly aiming at enhancing performance and reliability under extreme conditions. These included improvements in Pilot-Vehicle Interface, Brake Management System, Landing Gear, Fuel Systems, mid-air Escape systems and some aspects of Flight Control Laws. The IAF had also sought few design improvements for easier aircraft maintenance. Majority of improvements are implemented and incorporated in one of the LSP aircraft.
> 
> *DRDO confident of meeting Op clearance deadline for Tejas | Millennium Post*



But news come from DRDO that IOC2 deadline extended for two month and I did' believe that they achieve in their timeframe.

I think these stupid defence journalists pick up some old story add some spice and publish it.


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## vsdave2302

sms said:


> Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!
> 
> Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC


Not 1200 changes but 1200 test points to be cleared. Between 80-120 are cleared every month. Almost 2 points every flight.


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Not 1200 changes but 1200 test points to be cleared. Between 80-120 are cleared every month. Almost 2 points every flight.



So IAF would have find more than 10000 test points to delay LCA for sufficient time

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## Black Widow

rockstarIN said:


> Give it to test in Is AF and they may be call it 'desert fighter' then only our beloved IAF will accept it, just like Arjun.




The Govt and IAF officials trust Foreign analyst more. That's why Government a$$ was on fire as TIME mention "Manmohan Singh as Underachiver".


I doubt bro, Some intelliegnt PDF member once said, IA is Happy with blind T72 against Arjuna, and Happy to fly century (half century) old MiG21 against brand new LCA..

Young fighter life and Indian security cost less than there sex trip of pataya.. Next time if you see any Military official son driving Yamaha R1/Hayabusa/Honda CBR1000R. Remember it is bought from blood money. Those BMW/Audi have blood spot of our young pilots.

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## vsdave2302

Ajay Shukla article recently published says that LCA tejas' top speed is arround 2000 KMPH. Not bad.



After two decades of development and the expenditure of some Rs 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF). With Final Operational Clearance (FOC) targeted for end-2014, an Indian light fighter would be flying combat missions in any conflict from 2015 onwards. Given that this is India's first modern combat fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) - the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) body that oversees the Tejas project - has developed its debut fighter quickly and cheaply.

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the ministry of defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft - called Tejas Mark I - and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a manoeuvrable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

For this, the MoD must review its current plan to build just forty Tejas Mark I fighters, and embark upon another risky adventure to develop a more powerful, capable fighter. Since this would take at least four years of development work, the IAF would not start receiving the Tejas Mark II until 2018.

Furthermore, developing an ambitiously-framed Tejas Mark II would be dogged by uncertainty. To give the Mark II additional power, ADA plans to replace the Mark I's General Electric F-404 engine, which develops barely 80 KiloNewtons of thrust, with a more recent General Electric F-414 engine that will provide 90-96 KiloNewtons. But an internal ADA study has found that there may eventually be no benefit from this upgrade, since the Tejas' fuselage would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate the bulkier, heavier F-414. All this added weight, the study concludes, would neutralise the new engine's added power. Furthermore, there is a longstanding design flaw in the Tejas air intake, which allows barely enough air to be sucked in for the current F-404 engine. Fitting the more powerful F-414 would require the air intakes to be enlarged as well. And the rearrangement of so many major aerostructures would shift the Mark II's centre of gravity, necessitating the shifting around of other components to get the balance right.

Instead of this major redesign, loaded with the likelihood of further delays, it would be far more prudent to order more Tejas Mark I, while restricting the scope of the Mark II upgrade. This is where the third major benefit would come in - through the early activation of a mass production line on which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) could build fighters quickly. Currently, the tiny volume of orders (20 Mark I ordered, 20 more in the pipeline) prevents HAL from ramping up its supply chains and investing in an assembly line that can churn out at least ten fighters a year. So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.

Given the need to replace the MiG-21 quickly, as also the need to indigenise our arsenal, this is appallingly slow. Defence Minister A K Antony, at the annual Tejas Review Meeting on June 24, promised HAL Rs 1,500 crore for setting up the Tejas assembly line. But that is missing the wood for the trees; what use is an assembly line in the absence of orders?

What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanise HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015. Meanwhile the Tejas Mark II must be fully developed by 2016. This would require it to be less ambitious, restricting itself to modernizing avionics; fitting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; mounting more advanced air-to-air missiles; developing an onboard oxygen-generating system; and equipping the fighter with a mid-air refuelling system to increase its range.

A bird in the hand | Business Standard

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## vsdave2302

Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.

ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power. 

So It could be roughly 

1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad. 

Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2. 

MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.

I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.

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## rockstarIN

vsdave2302 said:


> Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.
> 
> ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.
> 
> So It could be roughly
> 
> 1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.
> 
> Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.
> 
> MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.
> 
> I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.



LCA Mk2 will eventually match M2k-9 with one less hard point. IAF will be very happy once it is received by them in full configuration.


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## Shadow_Hunter

vsdave2302 said:


> Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.
> 
> ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.
> 
> So It could be roughly
> 
> 1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.
> 
> Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.
> 
> MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.
> 
> I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.



Did you account for increase in weight of Mk2, power consumption of AESA?


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## Black Widow

vsdave2302 said:


> Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.
> 
> ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.
> 
> So It could be roughly
> 
> 1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.
> 
> Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.
> 
> MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.
> 
> *I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.*





I agree with your almost all point.. But u misread the the MK II part. The Author/analyst is not against MK II, rather he is advocating more number of LCA MK I in IAF (against proposed 2 Squadron). According to him MK-II will be
1. bulkier which will negate the extra power of new engine.
2. need more time ad it need major redesign (Refer design of F18 Hornet and Super hornet)

The Author only want more number of LCA MK-I (Till MK-II come into production)... Look what these Sex/money hungry general did with Arjuna MK-I, The Arjuna assembly line is free as there is no further request for Arjuna..


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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> After two decades of development and the expenditure of some Rs 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF)...



Another Ajay Shukla article about fighters, with a lot of mistakes. He really has no idea about it and still keeps talking.



rockstarIN said:


> LCA Mk2 will eventually match M2k-9 *with one less hard point*. IAF will be very happy once it is received by them in full configuration.



On paper it's just less, in reallity the difference is much bigger! An upgraded M2K for example can carry 5-6 x AAM's in any role, while LCA can only carry 4 in most missions. That's why the payload increase hardly is a benefit, if not more hardpoints can be used too. Technically, if AESA and IRST would be available, the MK2 must even surpass the M2K-9, but without all the IN requirements and by including EADS as a partner into LCA we could have got a far better fighter.


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## indiatester

sancho said:


> Another Ajay Shukla article about fighters, with a lot of mistakes. He really has no idea about it and still keeps talking.
> 
> 
> 
> On paper it's just less, in reallity the difference is much bigger! An upgraded M2K for example can carry 5-6 x AAM's in any role, while LCA can only carry 4 in most missions. That's why the payload increase hardly is a benefit, if not more hardpoints can be used too. Technically, if AESA and IRST would be available, the MK2 must even surpass the M2K-9, but without all the IN requirements and by including EADS as a partner into LCA we could have got a far better fighter.



Are all the 5-6 AAM's LRAAM's? Because with LCA, we can carry 4 LRAAM's and 2 SRAAM's?


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## vsdave2302

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Did you account for increase in weight of Mk2, power consumption of AESA?



Structural weight reduction and lesser weight radar shall be more than sufficient to compensate about 100 KG additional weight and some additional Power. New single chip processor shall be consuming much less power, much less and space and shall be light weight. e.g new HUD weighs only 8 KG in place of 18 KG. More composite materials shall go in making body part. Some LRUS shall be merge to make single LRU. Number of holes and bolts shall be reduced to 1/5 i.e 10000 to 2000 (Not from any authentic source) .

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## Shadow_Hunter

vsdave2302 said:


> Structural weight reduction and lesser weight radar shall be more than sufficient to compensate about 100 KG additional weight and some additional Power. New single chip processor shall be consuming much less power, much less and space and shall be light weight. e.g new HUD weighs only 8 KG in place of 18 KG. More composite materials shall go in making body part. Some LRUS shall be merge to make single LRU. Number of holes and bolts shall be reduced to 1/5 i.e 10000 to 2000 (Not from any authentic source) .



I am talking about larger size of Mk2, not parts per se. And isn't power consumption of AESA is close to 10 times of doppler radar


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## shree835

*HAL will stick to the deadline on LCA and IJT: MoS Defence*

Expressing confidence over the progress in Light Combat Aircraft and Intermediate Jet Trainer projects, Union Minister Jitendra Singh today said Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd would stick to its deadline.

&#8220;In last six months, lots of developments have happened, LCA has flown extensively and technical hiccups have been resolved; &#8230;.I can say HAL will stick to the deadline, IOCBSE 0.33 % (Initial Operation Clearance) for LCA is November and for IJT is December,&#8221; Jitendra Singh, the minister of State for Defence told reporters here. 

&#8220;IOC for IJT is December but there may be one or two months delay. Some of the seepage is due to weather, as there have been rains in Karnataka, so we have not been able to test the aircraft,&#8221; he added.

Complimenting the IAF ( Indian Air force), HAL and ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) for the work they have put in, he said &#8220;we will have a quality product.&#8221;

On the query whether the IAF is keen on having an indigenous trainer developed by HAL, the minister said, &#8220;It is not the matter of who is keen to do what, IAF wants best and quality product on time; operationally they want a product which has long life. Now it is for HAL to satisfy all these conditions laid down by IAF.&#8221;

Commenting on a controversy relating to safety in flying MIG fighter, he said it is not right for him to preempt and comment on it when IAF is investigating recent incidents and issues relating to the safety standards.

&#8220;IAF is investigating on the technical issues relating to the safety standard and also mechanical or training failure if any, so that such incidents don&#8217;t repeat. There is robust system in place,&#8221; he added.

On repeated incursions by Chinese army into the Indian territory, Singh said, &#8220;We want good relationship with all our neighbours; &#8230;..Any such incident is taken up at the highest level across the border.&#8221;

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/hal-will-stick-to-the-deadline-on-lca-and-ijt-mos-defence/articleshow/21276205.cms


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## vsdave2302

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am talking about larger size of Mk2, not parts per se. And isn't power consumption of AESA is close to 10 times of doppler radar



I am not talking about large size of MK2 (though it will give MK2 batter aerodynamic performance). I said wight reduction and aerodynamic improvements will compensate for higher power consumption by AESA radar which reduces the performance by consuming the power available for flight.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Another Ajay Shukla article about fighters, with a lot of mistakes. He really has no idea about it and still keeps talking.
> 
> 
> 
> On paper it's just less,* in reallity the difference is much bigger! An upgraded M2K for example can carry 5-6 x AAM's in any role, while LCA can only carry 4 in most missions*. That's why the payload increase hardly is a benefit, if not more hardpoints can be used too. Technically, if AESA and IRST would be available, the MK2 must even surpass the M2K-9, but without all the IN requirements and by including EADS as a partner into LCA we could have got a far better fighter.



If that is the case, why would the air forces buy Gripen C/D which, exactly matches even LCA Mk-1(in number of hard points etc.)

What extra have Gripen is providing since it is a relatively new fighter than M2k? The air forces around the world should have simply buy M2k more (I know the production line is shut). I don't think back in 90's and early 2000 the price of each jets (m2k & Gripen) had much difference.


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Are all the 5-6 AAM's LRAAM's? Because with LCA, we can carry 4 LRAAM's and 2 SRAAM's?



MICA in both varients are BVR missiles, so that itself is an advantage, but the Qatari M2K-5s for example use MICA EM at the 4 x fuselage stations, while the external stations would use WVR missiles. 
LCA can carry 4 + 2 missiles only in interception roles with a centerline fuel tank, in CAP however in needs 2 x wingfuel tanks, which limits it to 2 + 2 missiles.



rockstarIN said:


> If that is the case, why would the air forces buy Gripen C/D which, exactly matches even LCA Mk-1(in number of hard points etc.)



Which airforce has bought Gripen, when it already had M2Ks? And just as our M2Ks, the early versions didn't had the extra hardpoints, only from 2k-5 onwards.

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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.
> 
> ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.
> 
> So It could be roughly
> 
> 1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.
> 
> Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.
> 
> MK2 will be able to carry *5.6 ton of load*. That is very decent.
> 
> I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.





LCA MKII will be 5 ton payload not 5.6 ton.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> LCA MKII will be 5 ton payload not 5.6 ton.



I have seen a picture displaying 5.6 tones of payload carrying various Missiles and Bombs. Once fully developed, Mk 1 shall be carrying around 4.4 tons or even more. LCA MK1 maximum take off weight 13.3 tones. Now reduce 2.5 ton fuel and 5.8 tones of empty weight of plane. You will get an idea. Extrapolate the figure for 20% higher thrust engine i.e GE 414. Grippen NG carries 7.0 tons with same engine.


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> I have seen a picture displaying 5.6 tones of payload carrying various Missiles and Bombs. Once fully developed, Mk 1 shall be carrying around 4.4 tons or even more. LCA MK1 maximum take off weight 13.3 tones. Now reduce 2.5 ton fuel and 5.8 tones of empty weight of plane. You will get an idea. Extrapolate the figure for 20% higher thrust engine i.e GE 414. Grippen NG carries 7.0 tons with same engine.



Grippen carries more payload because it has better aerodynamics same as Mirage-2000-5 which engine thrust is 95kn after burner. Payload capacity mostly depend on planes aerodynamics. Engine thrust is secondory cause to effect payload capacity.

As tejas official website shows maximum takeoff weight is 13.2 MT but HAL website shows MKI maximum take off weight is 13.5 MT & *payload is 5.3 MT* which is laughable.
LSP8 is production variant then how can you say that Tejas would carry 4.4 ton of payload after fully developed. *Tejas empty weight is near about 6.5 ton not 5.8 ton*. then simply its Payload would be 4 ton.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> MICA in both varients are BVR missiles, so that itself is an advantage, but the Qatari M2K-5s for example use MICA EM at the 4 x fuselage stations, while the external stations would use WVR missiles.
> LCA can carry 4 + 2 missiles only in interception roles with a centerline fuel tank, in CAP however in needs 2 x wingfuel tanks, which limits it to 2 + 2 missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> *Which airforce has bought Gripen, when it already had M2Ks? And just as our M2Ks, the early versions didn't had the extra hardpoints, only from 2k-5 onwards*.



I'm saying about the price too. If any air force wants to replace their aging MiG-21s - or like swiz air force- can go for m2k instead of Gripen if the price is the same and the production line is open.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> Grippen carries more payload because it has better aerodynamics same as Mirage-2000-5 which engine thrust is 95kn after burner. Payload capacity mostly depend on planes aerodynamics. Engine thrust is secondory cause to effect payload capacity.
> 
> As tejas official website shows maximum takeoff weight is 13.2 MT but HAL website shows MKI maximum take off weight is 13.5 MT & *payload is 5.3 MT* which is laughable.
> LSP8 is production variant then how can you say that Tejas would carry 4.4 ton of payload after fully developed. *Tejas empty weight is near about 6.5 ton not 5.8 ton*. then simply its Payload would be 4 ton.



Hey guy you have dated information. 6.5 ton is a very old figure. A lot of weight is slashed there after. I have seen members mentioning it 5.8 tons in PDF. One member wrote that LSP 8 is 300 kg heavier than planned. Means 5.8 tons. Weight carrying capacity is function of aerodynamic as well as engine not alone aerodynamic as primary factor . Mk 2 is going to have refined aerodynamic as well as higher thrush engine. A lots of aerodynamic changes are made in MK 1 itself. You can see this from its maneuverability. It is now able to match Grippen in vertical turn. STR has improved a lot. I read some member citing that it is now as per ASR. Air intakes are widened which were actually planned in MK2. FOC MK1 will have 24 or 26 degree AOA. This will further improve performance. FOC is planned for 10 g turn and 15 g structural strength. MK 2 is going to be a master piece. New nosecone is planned to reduce drag etc...


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Hey guy you have old information. 6.5 ton is a very old figure. A lot of weight is slashed there after. I have seen members mentioning it 5.8 tons in PDF. One member wrote that LSP 8 is 300 kg heavier than planned. Means 5.8 tons. Weight carrying capacity is function of aerodynamic as well as engine not alone aerodynamic as primary factor . Mk 2 is going to have refined aerodynamic as well as higher thrush engine. A lots of aerodynamic changes are made in MK 1 itself. You can see this from its maneuverability. It is now able to match Grippen in vertical turn. STR has improved a lot. I read some member citing that it is now as per ASR. Air intakes are widened which were actually planned in MK2. FOC MK1 will have 24 or 26 degree AOA. This will further improve performance. FOC is planned for 10 g turn and 15 g structural strength. MK 2 is going to be a master piece. New nosecone is planned to reduce drag etc...




Brother, are you live in lalaland. From where you got those figures. These types of figure only ADA dreams not in reality. From where you 5.8 ton weight figure. Official sources says its empty weight without fuel is 6500 kg which is current target not actual. MK2 aerodynamics not to be going miracle change because only 1 ton payload increased & not more effects on maneuverability. MKI AOA target is 24 degree not 26 degree.
Even 9g g performance could achieve in MK1 & postpone this parameter in MK2 & you say 10g
MK1 would have 8g & MK2 will be 9g performance.
LCA one of the main problem is drag issue which is not sorted out now completely.

For every claim you say I read, he write. Please provide authentic source for your claims.

My source

Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft | Official Website

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> Brother, are you live in lalaland. From where you got those figures. These types of figure only ADA dreams not in reality. From where you 5.8 ton weight figure. Official sources says its empty weight without fuel is 6500 kg which is current target not actual. MK2 aerodynamics not to be going miracle change because only 1 ton payload increased & not more effects on maneuverability. MKI AOA target is 24 degree not 26 degree.
> Even 9g g performance could achieve in MK1 & postpone this parameter in MK2 & you say 10g
> MK1 would have 8g & MK2 will be 9g performance.
> LCA one of the main problem is drag issue which is not sorted out now completely.
> 
> For every claim you say I read, he write. Please provide authentic source for your claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My source
> 
> Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft | Official Website
> 
> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas



Brother let me explain my points one by one.

As you wrote in your previous post, HAL website shows maximum takeoff weight 13.5 T and weight carrying capacity 5.3 T. Now Pl subtract 5.3 T weapon load and 2.5 ton Fuel weight. It is 5.7 tons, the weight of the plane. This prove my point. How ever you can give me any authentic source to prove that LSP 8 weighs 6.5 ton, I am open to accept. Until than I would believe what HAL website says. Website you cite is Mum about the weight carrying capacity so we can not conclude the empty weight from Takeoff weight Like I did in case of DATA of HAL website. If ADA website says that it can carry 5.0 ton load, It will once again turned out to be 5.7 T empty weight.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

Pl check post No 7744. or click above link. It shows empty weight 5450 KG. only.

I do not say that it will be a 10G aircraft. I said it will be tested for 10g in FOC. That they will certify it for a figure somewhere between 8 to 10 g. May be 8.5 or 9 g. 

And yes you are right FOC parameter are 24 degree AOA but it has a potential to go upto 26 degree as I read some where in forum. I also read somewhere that with some artificial measure, AOA can be increased upto 36 degree. Sancho May give his expert comment on this.

You may be right so far as drag is concern. But a lots of performance improvement is observed in recent time. So we may reasonably assume that the drag issue is resolved to a great extent or some extent. They have planned drag reduction in MK2 also.

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## vsdave2302

Can Anybody explain the difference between the wing root I see in old PV (White color) as shown in AAD website and LSP? Wings in old lsp do not take a sharp dip near wing as it does in case of lsp.

Sancho and others Members Pl.


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Brother let me explain my points one by one.
> 
> As you wrote in your previous post, HAL website shows maximum takeoff weight 13.5 T and weight carrying capacity 5.3 T. Now Pl subtract 5.3 T weapon load and 2.5 ton Fuel weight. It is 5.7 tons, the weight of the plane. This prove my point. How ever you can give me any authentic source to prove that LSP 8 weighs 6.5 ton, I am open to accept. Until than I would believe what HAL website says. Website you cite is Mum about the weight carrying capacity so we can not conclude the empty weight from Takeoff weight Like I did in case of DATA of HAL website. If ADA website says that it can carry 5.0 ton load, It will once again turned out to be 5.7 T empty weight.
> 
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/
> 
> Pl check post No 7744. or click above link. It shows empty weight 5450 KG. only.
> 
> I do not say that it will be a 10G aircraft. I said it will be tested for 10g in FOC. That they will certify it for a figure somewhere between 8 to 10 g. May be 8.5 or 9 g.
> 
> And yes you are right FOC parameter are 24 degree AOA but it has a potential to go upto 26 degree as I read some where in forum. I also read somewhere that with some artificial measure, AOA can be increased upto 36 degree. Sancho May give his expert comment on this.
> 
> You may be right so far as drag is concern. But a lots of performance improvement is observed in recent time. So we may reasonably assume that the drag issue is resolved to a great extent or some extent. They have planned drag reduction in MK2 also.



LCA official & ADA website shows its loaded weight is 9500 kg & Max. Takeoff weight is 13500 kg.
So, Payload = Loaded weight ( aircraft+internal fuel+pilot weight) - Maximum takeoff
Payload = 13500 - 9500 = 4000 kg
This is official figure.
Whom figure you would consider , developer or third party.

Drag issue not much rectify in MK2 so they overlapped this issue with higher thrust engine. So, there will be not increase in payload capability.

MK2 design is freezed which does not hint dramatic redesigning & ADA target is only 9g. Where you got 10g news.

I quoted authentic sources not some defence magzines & sites or read from somwhere.


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## vsdave2302

So 9500 KG less 2500 KG fuel weight = 7000 KG aircraft weight right? Now you believe that? So now do not tell it is 6.5 Tons say 7.0 tons. 

HAL is equally authentic website and producing agency. If you do not want to believe, it is up to you. 

Your problem is that you are not paying attention. I said it will be tested for 10g not certified for 10 g. Certification shall always be on conservative side. Pl check the following post on page no 492. It contains a link from HAL tender also. You can check bharat rakshak also. 


Welcome to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

Tender for development of hydraulic pump for LCA Tejas MK2.From the given documents they are looking for 10g stress capability.
Acceleration 
&#8226; Operational g-level: 10 &#8217;g&#8217; in all 6 directions as per Sl. No. 16 a) of Annexure 1 of
Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
&#8226; Structural g-level: 1.5 times the &#8216;g&#8217; value as indicated above as per Sl. No. 16 b) of
Annexure 1 of Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
Qualification methodology : Actual Test
excellent find by Indranilroy@BR.
2. HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-492.html#ixzz2a92I0rJr

Introduction

LCA Tejas Mk2 is being developed for use by the IAF and the IN. It will be powered by the more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine and feature other upgrades. 

Airframe Modifications

Minor modifications are being made to the LCA Tejas Mk1 airframe to accommodate the slightly larger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.

*Pl read following. Aerodynamic Improvement is a part of MK2 features.*

The dimensions of Mk2 will be as follows

Span : 8.20m
Length: 13.70m
Height: 4.52m

Upgrades


Besides a more powerful engine, Tejas Mk-2 will feature other improvements. Here is the complete list of planned upgrades

Higher Thrust Engine
Structural Weight Reduction
Aerodynamic Improvements
Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
Electronic Warfare Suite
Avionics Upgrade
In flight refuelling retractable probe
On board oxygen generation system
Increased fuel capacity.
Features

Supersonic at all altitudes
15km service altitude
Tailless compound delta wing
Composite structure
Improved performance
Improved maintainability
Improved Survivability
Digital Fly by wire
Fuel dump system
Multi mode radar

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-projects/fighters/tejas-mk2


work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AU0861

What are the current figures buddy?
AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g

LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AsXnj0

LSP6 AOA indicator specs:

Angle of Attack Indicator shall indicate the angle of attack in degrees in the range of -90° to +90°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -10° to +20°, the amber band shall indicate in the range of +20° to +30° & -10° to -15° and the red band shall indicate +30° to +90° & -15° to -90°.

LSP6 AOSS indicator specs:

Angle of Side Slip Indicator shall indicate the angle of side slip in degrees in the range of -
25° to +25°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -5° to +5°, the amber band shall
indicate in the range of +5° to +10° & -5° to -10° and the red band shall indicate +10° to
+25° & -10° to -25°.

Severity Tests:

Test type |||||||| Severity
Rapid Decompression |||||||| From 23000 ft (7 km) to 60000ft (18 km) in 15 sec, Hold for 10 min at 60000ft.

Acceleration &#8211;functional |||||||| 10 &#8216;g&#8217; in all 6 directions

Acceleration &#8211; structural ||||||| 15 &#8217;g&#8217; in all 6 directions

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9BQSYtd

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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> So 9500 KG less 2500 KG fuel weight = 7000 KG aircraft weight right? Now you believe that? So now do not tell it is 6.5 Tons say 7.0 tons.
> 
> HAL is equally authentic website and producing agency. If you do not want to believe, it is up to you.
> 
> Your problem is that you are not paying attention. I said it will be tested for 10g not certified for 10 g. Certification shall always be on conservative side. Pl check the following post on page no 492. It contains a link from HAL tender also. You can check bharat rakshak also.
> 
> 
> Welcome to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
> 
> Tender for development of hydraulic pump for LCA Tejas MK2.From the given documents they are looking for 10g stress capability.
> Acceleration
> &#8226; Operational g-level: 10 &#8217;g&#8217; in all 6 directions as per Sl. No. 16 a) of Annexure 1 of
> Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
> &#8226; Structural g-level: 1.5 times the &#8216;g&#8217; value as indicated above as per Sl. No. 16 b) of
> Annexure 1 of Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
> Qualification methodology : Actual Test
> excellent find by Indranilroy@BR.
> 2. HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
> for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
> 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
> taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-492.html#ixzz2a92I0rJr
> 
> Introduction
> 
> LCA Tejas Mk2 is being developed for use by the IAF and the IN. It will be powered by the more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine and feature other upgrades.
> 
> Airframe Modifications
> 
> Minor modifications are being made to the LCA Tejas Mk1 airframe to accommodate the slightly larger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.
> 
> *Pl read following. Aerodynamic Improvement is a part of MK2 features.*
> 
> The dimensions of Mk2 will be as follows
> 
> Span : 8.20m
> Length: 13.70m
> Height: 4.52m
> 
> Upgrades
> 
> 
> Besides a more powerful engine, Tejas Mk-2 will feature other improvements. Here is the complete list of planned upgrades
> 
> Higher Thrust Engine
> Structural Weight Reduction
> Aerodynamic Improvements
> Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
> Electronic Warfare Suite
> Avionics Upgrade
> In flight refuelling retractable probe
> On board oxygen generation system
> Increased fuel capacity.
> Features
> 
> Supersonic at all altitudes
> 15km service altitude
> Tailless compound delta wing
> Composite structure
> Improved performance
> Improved maintainability
> Improved Survivability
> Digital Fly by wire
> Fuel dump system
> Multi mode radar
> 
> LCA Tejas Mk-2 - IDP Sentinel
> 
> 
> work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AU0861
> 
> What are the current figures buddy?
> AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
> g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g
> 
> LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AsXnj0
> 
> LSP6 AOA indicator specs:
> 
> Angle of Attack Indicator shall indicate the angle of attack in degrees in the range of -90° to +90°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -10° to +20°, the amber band shall indicate in the range of +20° to +30° & -10° to -15° and the red band shall indicate +30° to +90° & -15° to -90°.
> 
> LSP6 AOSS indicator specs:
> 
> Angle of Side Slip Indicator shall indicate the angle of side slip in degrees in the range of -
> 25° to +25°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -5° to +5°, the amber band shall
> indicate in the range of +5° to +10° & -5° to -10° and the red band shall indicate +10° to
> +25° & -10° to -25°.
> 
> Severity Tests:
> 
> Test type |||||||| Severity
> Rapid Decompression |||||||| From 23000 ft (7 km) to 60000ft (18 km) in 15 sec, Hold for 10 min at 60000ft.
> 
> Acceleration &#8211;functional |||||||| 10 &#8216;g&#8217; in all 6 directions
> 
> Acceleration &#8211; structural ||||||| 15 &#8217;g&#8217; in all 6 directions
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9BQSYtd



Here I give you DRDO monthly Techfocus feb 2011 special edition on LCA & hopes it will clear your much of doubts.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb%202011%20.pdf


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## Manindra

@vsdave2302 loaded weight you should also count PILOT weight & other support equipment which pilot carries.

For your 10g claim every equipment tested over their prescribed capacity that if they face those situation then didn't breakdown. It is comman rule of engineering which you fail to understand. This 10g stress capable equipment is ideal for 8g, same as 9g capable aircraft can take stress of 12g in emergency situation thats not make that aircraft 12g stress capable.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> @vsdave2302 loaded weight you should also count PILOT weight & other support equipment which pilot carries.
> 
> For your 10g claim every equipment tested over their prescribed capacity that if they face those situation then didn't breakdown. It is comman rule of engineering which you fail to understand. This 10g stress capable equipment is ideal for 8g, same as 9g capable aircraft can take stress of 12g in emergency situation thats not make that aircraft 12g stress capable.



OK How much will be the weight of Pilot and his other Support equipment? 500kg? (What I want to prove is that DATA cited on ADA website are inconsistent unless you believe that LCA empty weight is around 7 tons). If it is less than that, the same will straight way go into addition of weight carrying capacity of Tejas. 

This is Exactly I want to tell you. It will be tested for 10 g functional acceleration and certification shall be on conservative side (read my posts once again), May be between 8 g to 9g. They want to check it for 10 g functional and 15g structural. I think that for stress capability, Structural testing is important not functional (Manindra or other members can correct me if I am wrong). They are going to test it for 15g structural g force. It is well beyond the figures you cited. So structurally the bird will be more than capable to handle any g force. How ever human endurance limit will be around 9g.

I have read on BR that variable inlets are planned for MK2 and it will hit Mach 2.2 . 

You seem to have agreed on aerodynamic improvement in MK2. 

In your post 7806, you have given reference of DRDO techno focus. It is too long to read. You have any specific point to prove, You are welcome. It is of 2011. LCA has moved a long way since than.

Thanks.


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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> OK How much will be the weight of Pilot and his other Support equipment? 500kg? (What I want to prove is that DATA cited on ADA website are inconsistent unless you believe that LCA empty weight is around 7 tons). If it is less than that, the same will straight way go into addition of weight carrying capacity of Tejas.
> 
> This is Exactly I want to tell you. It will be tested for 10 g functional acceleration and certification shall be on conservative side (read my posts once again), May be between 8 g to 9g. They want to check it for 10 g functional and 15g structural. I think that for stress capability, Structural testing is important not functional (Manindra or other members can correct me if I am wrong). They are going to test it for 15g structural g force. It is well beyond the figures you cited. So structurally the bird will be more than capable to handle any g force. How ever human endurance limit will be around 9g.
> 
> I have read on BR that variable inlets are planned for MK2 and it will hit Mach 2.2 .
> 
> You seem to have agreed on aerodynamic improvement in MK2.
> 
> In your post 7806, you have given reference of DRDO techno focus. It is too long to read. You have any specific point to prove, You are welcome. It is of 2011. LCA has moved a long way since than.
> 
> Thanks.



I am quoted source from LCA cheif nodal agency. What is HAL, only manufactur from obtaining TOT from ADA. Whom do you believe , Cheif nodal agency ADA or HAL. From 2011 there are not dramatic change in LCA. For gaining authentic knowledge you have to read such reports instead of BR or other fanboy source. You replied me with reading that even your doubt regarding empty clear on page 2. First read then ask.
@sancho kindly help him. I am tired.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> I am quoted source from LCA cheif nodal agency. What is HAL, only manufactur from obtaining TOT from ADA. Whom do you believe , Cheif nodal agency ADA or HAL. From 2011 there are not dramatic change in LCA. For gaining authentic knowledge you have to read such reports instead of BR or other fanboy source. You replied me with reading that even your doubt regarding empty clear on page 2. First read then ask.
> @sancho kindly help him. I am tired.



You have failed to reply the points I raised. You are repeating the things again and again. You want to ignore even Mathematical contradiction in the figures. For example as per the DRDO literature, Weight of Plane 6560 KG+ Fuel 2458 KG=9018 KG. Now they write operational clean weight 9800 KG. So what is the explanation of 9800-9018= 782 KG? Same way ADA do not have explanation of 500 KG.So I do not believe them. If you want to believe the weight part of DRDO document, weight carrying capacity is only 3.5 (13300 KG-9800 K.G) Tons not 4.0.as you mentioned in your post 7804 so stick to 3.5 tons Not 4.0 tons.

Anyway I went through the DRDO document you cited. There is nothing in the document which supports your argument except weight (in fact load carrying capacity it is less than you stated). So far aerodynamics is concern, it states exact Opposite to what you cited in your previous posts. e.g The document praises the aerodynamic & agility. It praises wing design. It does not state that it is draggy as you said.

I am tired also. This is may last post in response to your post. All are free to believe whatever they want as 3 government agencies quote different weight figures. However I see contradiction in ADA & DRDO figures itself so I do not want to believe them. They do not have explanation of 500 KG & 800 K G Weight respectively.

Yes, I quoted comments from Blogs i.e BR and PDF. But these comments contains the link to tender documents of HAL which is not a fanboy source. You can check it if you want. You can believe it if you want. I believe that believing that documents do not make me Fanboy. 

Pl do not feel offended. Thanks.


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## Manindra

I got some important data about test flights per year of tejas

TOTAL FLIGHTS
2001 012
2002 34
2003 95
2004 180
2005 159
2006 105
2007 213
2008 191
2009 281
2010 238
2011 251
2012 204
*July-2013 308*
TOTAL 2271

This data shows in which year works going slow & where gets momentum.

In 2012 due to problem in ejection seat which could hit Pilot's helmet to canopy LCA mostly grounded till problem got rectified.
In 2013 during 7 month period its achieve 308 test flights which shows that MOD is very serious on LCA.

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## sudhir007

Manindra said:


> I got some important data about test flights per year of tejas
> 
> TOTAL FLIGHTS
> 2001 012
> 2002 34
> 2003 95
> 2004 180
> 2005 159
> 2006 105
> 2007 213
> 2008 191
> 2009 281
> 2010 238
> 2011 251
> 2012 204
> *July-2013 308*
> TOTAL 2271
> 
> This data shows in which year works going slow & where gets momentum.
> 
> In 2012 due to problem in ejection seat which could hit Pilot's helmet to canopy LCA mostly grounded till problem got rectified.
> In 2013 during 7 month period its achieve 308 test flights which shows that MOD is very serious on LCA.



Bang On -- ur right. So the Ist time they touch 300 test flight in a yr.

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## Manindra

sudhir007 said:


> Bang On -- ur right. So the Ist time they touch 300 test flight in a yr.



Not in a year only six & a half month.


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## Black Widow

Manindra said:


> Not in a year only six & a half month.




By december 100 more test may happen.. Wish LCA make 500 test flight till decemer..


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## Shadow_Hunter

vsdave2302 said:


> You have failed to reply the points I raised. You are repeating the things again and again. You want to ignore even Mathematical contradiction in the figures. For example as per the DRDO literature, Weight of Plane 6560 KG+ Fuel 2458 KG=9018 KG. Now they write operational clean weight 9800 KG. So what is the explanation of 9800-9018= 782 KG? Same way ADA do not have explanation of 500 KG.So I do not believe them. If you want to believe the weight part of DRDO document, weight carrying capacity is only 3.5 (13300 KG-9800 K.G) Tons not 4.0.as you mentioned in your post 7804 so stick to 3.5 tons Not 4.0 tons.
> 
> Anyway I went through the DRDO document you cited. There is nothing in the document which supports your argument except weight (in fact load carrying capacity it is less than you stated). So far aerodynamics is concern, it states exact Opposite to what you cited in your previous posts. e.g The document praises the aerodynamic & agility. It praises wing design. It does not state that it is draggy as you said.
> 
> I am tired also. This is may last post in response to your post. All are free to believe whatever they want as 3 government agencies quote different weight figures. However I see contradiction in ADA & DRDO figures itself so I do not want to believe them. They do not have explanation of 500 KG & 800 K G Weight respectively.
> 
> Yes, I quoted comments from Blogs i.e BR and PDF. But these comments contains the link to tender documents of HAL which is not a fanboy source. You can check it if you want. You can believe it if you want. I believe that believing that documents do not make me Fanboy.
> 
> Pl do not feel offended. Thanks.



Doesn't operational weight includes 2 A2A missiles as well?


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## vsdave2302

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Doesn't operational weight includes 2 A2A missiles as well?




It is operational clean weight. Isn't A2A missile included in weight of weapons? 

I do not know. Knowledgeable members may through some light on it.


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## Manindra

Black Widow said:


> By december 100 more test may happen.. Wish LCA make 500 test flight till decemer..



Surely it makes 500 test flights if not come any surprise because its IOC-2 is in november. So, it could cross this mark in december half.

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## Black Widow

@Manindra, @vsdave2302, @sudheer007, @Shadow_Hunter , @Somnath, @Karan, @XiNiX @Blue


Have u guys heard, IAF diluted requirement for Pilatus. They did the same for AW Helo.. 


Can't we accept same generosity for our Desi product? What stop them from diluting requirement for LCA??? 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html#post4579020

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## RPK



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## Manindra

We want sanction or reduce defence budget to like before 90's to teach a lesson these corrupts. No choice no bribery.

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## vsdave2302

I read on BR that STR criterion are met. Any member has any detail?



Black Widow said:


> @Manindra, @vsdave2302, @sudheer007, @Shadow_Hunter , @Somnath, @Karan, @XiNiX @Blue
> 
> 
> Have u guys heard, IAF diluted requirement for Pilatus. They did the same for AW Helo..
> 
> 
> Can't we accept same generosity for our Desi product? What stop them from diluting requirement for LCA???
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html#post4579020



HAL, DRDO will not give Kick Back.


----------



## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> Have u guys heard, IAF diluted requirement for Pilatus. They did the same for AW Helo..
> 
> 
> Can't we accept same generosity for our Desi product? What stop them from diluting requirement for LCA???
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html#post4579020



Common buddy its becoming a trend to blash our armed forces. I even read some genius poster saying everybody in forces is corrupt. I generally avoid such posts but did you ever think of what is going on. 

- IAF diluted requirement for "BASIC TRAINER". 
First thing tell me why did we need to buy basic trainer ??? Do we have a local option ??? Can we manage without buying them ???
I suggest you search for our indigenous basic trainer project. And please post the dates of various announcements and claims. 
And it will not stop here. Same thing is going on with IJT but our PSUs dont think they should fast track IJT which is required but they decide to go fast track with basic trainer with own funding which isn't required anymore. 
- About LCA. Ask same questions in the above point. LCA is not a dire requirement. And if our PSUs declare thats all they can do IAF will induct the Sqds. 
But what happen in reality every now and then a DRDO/HAL guy come up with new promises and lot of mouth steam. Our DRDO chief publicly talk about inducting 5th gen features in LCA MK-3 even before existing problems in MK-1 have not completly been solved. 
- so simple point being DRDO tell IAF we can do this and we can do that and while delivering they deliver next date 
- on other hand look at the project LCH. Thats a dire need. Only TD-1 and TD-2 are ready today but they ( IA + IAF ) already placed the order. Power plant issue of Druva is solved and IA has started accepting deliveries. 

*So exact answer to you question is "the promises made by DRDO" are stopping IAF from diluting requirements. eg Why in the world I will go for PESA radar for LCA M-2 when DRDO said AESA will be ready and made public a photo of TR module with reynolds pen ???*
- people always talk about IAF changing requirement every now and then.
First thing why DRDO accept those changes ??? Cause they think they can do it and secondly requirements in the field did changed rapidly and our project got plagued. 

Saying a service man corrupt and pimp is valid when somebody did such activities. Blaming entire force for the deeds of few is calling all indian rapist for the rape happened in Delhi. Its a Chinese troll logic



vsdave2302 said:


> I read on BR that STR criterion are met. Any member has any detail?
> 
> 
> 
> HAL, DRDO will not give Kick Back.



But they never fail to give promises which they cant keep

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## Black Widow

vsdave2302 said:


> I read on BR that STR criterion are met. Any member has any detail?
> 
> 
> 
> HAL, DRDO will not give Kick Back.




What is STR Criterion Bro??

I will pay my entire salary to these Pigs, They must buy Indian products only (in rarest of rare case where Indian can't produce something, these ppl can buy foreign products)...

@By the way Manindra has a point..


OffTopic: Joke: Once Planning commission gave 1 Cr each to Modi and Rahul Young Gandhi. The target was to illuminate one city. Modi worked on a minihydro plan, generated electricity and illuminated the city.

Rahul Gandhi spent just 1 Lakh Rupees and bought Candle, He illuminated the city... 

Kejriwal Shouted: Abe 99 Lakh ka Ghotala kar diya?? (99 Lakh went to Scam)..

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## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> Common buddy its becoming a trend to blash our armed forces.* I even read some genius poster saying everybody in forces is corrupt.* I generally avoid such posts but did you ever think of what is going on.
> 
> - IAF diluted requirement for "BASIC TRAINER".
> First thing tell me why did we need to buy basic trainer ??? Do we have a local option ??? Can we manage without buying them ???
> I suggest you search for our indigenous basic trainer project. And please post the dates of various announcements and claims.
> And it will not stop here. Same thing is going on with IJT but our PSUs dont think they should fast track IJT which is required but they decide to go fast track with basic trainer with own funding which isn't required anymore.
> - About LCA. Ask same questions in the above point. LCA is not a dire requirement. And if our PSUs declare thats all they can do IAF will induct the Sqds.
> But what happen in reality every now and then a DRDO/HAL guy come up with new promises and lot of mouth steam. Our DRDO chief publicly talk about inducting 5th gen features in LCA MK-3 even before existing problems in MK-1 have not completly been solved.
> - so simple point being DRDO tell IAF we can do this and we can do that and while delivering they deliver next date
> - on other hand look at the project LCH. Thats a dire need. Only TD-1 and TD-2 are ready today but they ( IA + IAF ) already placed the order. Power plant issue of Druva is solved and IA has started accepting deliveries.
> 
> *So exact answer to you question is "the promises made by DRDO" are stopping IAF from diluting requirements. eg Why in the world I will go for PESA radar for LCA M-2 when DRDO said AESA will be ready and made public a photo of TR module with reynolds pen ???*
> - people always talk about IAF changing requirement every now and then.
> First thing why DRDO accept those changes ??? Cause they think they can do it and secondly requirements in the field did changed rapidly and our project got plagued.
> 
> Saying a service man corrupt and pimp is valid when somebody did such activities. Blaming entire force for the deeds of few is calling all indian rapist for the rape happened in Delhi. Its a Chinese troll logic
> 
> 
> 
> But they never fail to give promises which they cant keep






Then prove it.. prove it that Armed forces are not Sonia and company.. We must not live in la la land.. Armed forces are as corrupt as other faction.. 

How did Tejider dare to enter Army chief cabin and offered him bribe? These ppl are fearless, they have backing from top (May be God). They are not afraid of St Anthony, they were not afraid of Army chief. There son ride BMW, there kid have fun in Pataya, 

There squadron strength is far below required 41.5 , there tanks are blind, there plane are 50 year old.


*If they are innocent, let them prove it..*


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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> Then prove it.. prove it that Armed forces are not Sonia and company.. We must not live in la la land.. Armed forces are as corrupt as other faction..
> 
> How did Tejider dare to enter Army chief cabin and offered him bribe? These ppl are fearless, they have backing from top (May be God). They are not afraid of St Anthony, they were not afraid of Army chief. There son ride BMW, there kid have fun in Pataya,
> 
> There squadron strength is far below required 41.5 , there tanks are blind, there plane are 50 year old.
> 
> 
> *If they are innocent, let them prove it..*


If they are innocent they should prove it - ok till then you will enjoy calling them pigs , right ??? And somebody will come fall and generalise you statement to entire force.

Yes you can call Tejider a pig but how did you know that ??? Cause IA chief made that public. Isn't it enough to say not everybody is sold. 

Or do you believe ex-IA chief fall in the same line ???

I am not denying corruption. I am just against blind generalisation. Or do you agree with Chinese troll logic that all indians are rapist ???


And why avoid first part of the post on LCA/LCH and trainners ???


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## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> If they are innocent they should prove it - ok till then you will enjoy calling them pigs , right ??? And somebody will come fall and generalise you statement to entire force.
> 
> Yes you can call Tejider a pig but how did you know that ??? Cause IA chief made that public. Isn't it enough to say not everybody is sold.
> 
> Or do you believe ex-IA chief fall in the same line ???
> 
> I am not denying corruption. I am just against blind generalisation. Or do you agree with Chinese troll logic that all indians are rapist ???
> 
> 
> And why avoid first part of the post on LCA/LCH and trainners ???





I have respect for service men. I am not saying all are corrupt. There are Honest person like Ex Army Chief and many more. 

I have huge respect for last 5 Navy Chief, those are the ppl who are shaping Navy and India....


The Nexus is "General (procurement), MoD (Officials and politicians), Politicians (PM, Gandhi Family) and foreign agent.

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## Black Widow

Lets now discuss point to point...

1. LCA: One can write a book "How to kill a project" on LCA. LCA is dire requirement, The lobby did every thing to destroy LCA project. It was A B Bajpai and Saint Anthony whose good work had kept this project alive. Every country in world (Including USA and Russia) accept there slight low quality indigenous products.

2. Dhruv: If IAF will not buy Dhruv will not die, There are many other customer (including me) for Dhruv. IAF has no other option.

3. LCA: Same story, IA is aggressive to have aviation corps, which IAF uncomfortable with. As there are 2 customer for LCH, It has better future.

4. Arjuna : we all know the story of great sabotage, how German engine was made to fail, and within month 1200+ T90 was purchased. We all know how IA is still trying to run away from buying it. If Indian govt allow BSF to have Tank brigade and BSF will ask for 1000+ Arjuna tank, IA will start purchasing Arjuna. 

5. ADA/HAL/DRDO fault: no doubt they have foot to mouth disease. They should twist "Armed forces" arm and make them to buy products.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Black Widow said:


> Lets now discuss point to point...
> 
> 1. LCA: One can write a book "How to kill a project" on LCA. LCA is dire requirement, The lobby did every thing to destroy LCA project. It was A B Bajpai and Saint Anthony whose good work had kept this project alive. Every country in world (Including USA and Russia) accept there slight low quality indigenous products.
> 
> 2. Dhruv: If IAF will not buy Dhruv will not die, There are many other customer (including me) for Dhruv. IAF has no other option.
> 
> 3. LCA: Same story, IA is aggressive to have aviation corps, which IAF uncomfortable with. As there are 2 customer for LCH, It has better future.
> 
> 4. Arjuna : we all know the story of great sabotage, how German engine was made to fail, and within month 1200+ T90 was purchased. We all know how IA is still trying to run away from buying it. If Indian govt allow BSF to have Tank brigade and BSF will ask for 1000+ Arjuna tank, IA will start purchasing Arjuna.
> 
> 5. ADA/HAL/DRDO fault: no doubt they have foot to mouth disease. They should twist "Armed forces" arm and make them to buy products.



You are writing without enough knowledge. The problem in Dhruv lies with HAL, not IA, not IAF. You should search for a CAG audit of dhruv project done in 2009.


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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> I have respect for service men. I am not saying all are corrupt. There are Honest person like Ex Army Chief and many more.
> 
> I have huge respect for last 5 Navy Chief, those are the ppl who are shaping Navy and India....
> 
> 
> The Nexus is "General (procurement), MoD (Officials and politicians), Politicians (PM, Gandhi Family) and foreign agent.



I wasn't targeting you. If you look around this forum you find its a trend to blash forces and connect them to politicians. 

Even the First line of Your post no# 7824 isn't agreeing with your this post . I am glad you said you don't see all personal like that.

I dont have anything to say about politicians. Its our fault that we elect them


----------



## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> Lets now discuss point to point...


 thats really better way


> 1. LCA: One can write a book "How to kill a project" on LCA. LCA is dire requirement, The lobby did every thing to destroy LCA project. It was A B Bajpai and Saint Anthony whose good work had kept this project alive. Every country in world (Including USA and Russia) accept there slight low quality indigenous products.


- who handle "LCA" project ??? Its not IAF or MOD. 
- LCA isn't a dire operational need. IAF can manage with existing fleet till 2018. With Rafael coming LCA requirement is going to go down 
- LCA is dire requirement for our local industry and NOT for IAF.
- Yes every country in the world accept what its local industry produce. But no other local industry in the world promise you diamonds and give the glass.
- You are totally ignoring the bad management and over confidence of our industry.



> 2. Dhruv: If IAF will not buy Dhruv will not die, There are many other customer (including me) for Dhruv. IAF has no other option.


 if IAF and IA cancel the order there is nobody in the world who could afford the price of Dhruv. And that will also include you if you cant pay the development cost. 
I hope you know how dhruv evolve. Thats kind of project management would have made LCA inducted.



> 3. LCA: Same story, IA is aggressive to have aviation corps, which IAF uncomfortable with. As there are 2 customer for LCH, It has better future.


Your concept of better future is problematic. If one of the forces drop order then per unit cost goes up. And trust me if we screwed up LCH project we just gona see more Apaches. 



> 4. Arjuna : we all know the story of great sabotage, how German engine was made to fail, and within month 1200+ T90 was purchased. We all know how IA is still trying to run away from buying it. If Indian govt allow BSF to have Tank brigade and BSF will ask for 1000+ Arjuna tank, IA will start purchasing Arjuna.


Yes news of sabotage was true. And may there were arm dealer agent working within our force.
But that didn't forgive DRDO. Please see the IA requirement and DRDO's targets about Arjun. DRDO messed up in first place. 
Anyways we will see nearly 300 MK-2 and all existing MK-1 will be converted to MK-2 standards. Currently there is no order cause MK-2 is just completing tests. Wait for it and see the order yourself. 



> 5. ADA/HAL/DRDO fault: no doubt they have foot to mouth disease. They should twist "Armed forces" arm and make them to buy products.


hahahaah how  what reliability you will have if you promise me BMW and delivered ford  

One fun fact for you : Show me any reference were DRDO/ADA/HAL said anything about induction of MK-1 as is. If you remember it was saint Antony who stood on their heads to fast track the process. Otherwise those idiots were still look for next time line. 

And even today DRDO isn't backing out form its mouth steam. I hope you don't want me to give links for that

Reactions: Like Like:
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## vsdave2302

Black Widow said:


> What is STR Criterion Bro??
> 
> I will pay my entire salary to these Pigs, They must buy Indian products only (in rarest of rare case where Indian can't produce something, these ppl can buy foreign products)...
> 
> @By the way Manindra has a point..
> 
> 
> OffTopic: Joke: Once Planning commission gave 1 Cr each to Modi and Rahul Young Gandhi. The target was to illuminate one city. Modi worked on a minihydro plan, generated electricity and illuminated the city.
> 
> Rahul Gandhi spent just 1 Lakh Rupees and bought Candle, He illuminated the city...
> 
> Kejriwal Shouted: Abe 99 Lakh ka Ghotala kar diya?? (99 Lakh went to Scam)..



STR is sustained turn Rate. This is one of the very Important parameter of FOC or IOC 2. I think it is time for plane to complete a horizontal circle. 360 degree/time taken in seconds to complete the circle is STR per second. 20 degree may be good.


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## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> thats really better way
> 
> - who handle "LCA" project ??? Its not IAF or MOD.
> - LCA isn't a dire operational need. IAF can manage with existing fleet till 2018. With Rafael coming LCA requirement is going to go down
> - LCA is dire requirement for our local industry and NOT for IAF.
> - Yes every country in the world accept what its local industry produce. But no other local industry in the world promise you diamonds and give the glass.
> - You are totally ignoring the bad management and over confidence of our industry.



Though IAF and MoD doesn't manage LCA, they cannot run away from taking blame. It was IAF dream to have 42 Squadrons. They should learn from IN. Remember how IN chief blasted HAL/ADA for delay in N-LCA. As a customer its your duty to push your vendor. 

Rafale is not replacement for LCA. Indian MiG27/23 are also on verge of retirement. EFT was replacement for LCA Rafale is replacement for Ground attack fighter. 



> if IAF and IA cancel the order there is nobody in the world who could afford the price of Dhruv. And that will also include you if you cant pay the development cost.
> I hope you know how dhruv evolve. Thats kind of project management would have made LCA inducted.


You are living in la-la land. ALH has many buyer, just use google. If IAF/IA stop procurement HAL will look for foreign buyer. Lanka, Nepal, Africa, Latin America, East Asia, Corporates, State Govt etc are the potential buyer.

No one give f$$$$$$$ing sh&t to IAF and IA when ALH come into market.. 



> Your concept of better future is problematic. If one of the forces drop order then per unit cost goes up. And trust me if we screwed up LCH project we just gona see more Apaches.


 offcourse because Apache comes with more dalali... and moreover both are different class fighters... LCH is light while Apache is Heavy class. I will be furious if IAF/IA will buy Cobra ignoring LCH.




> Anyways we will see nearly 300 MK-2 and all existing MK-1 will be converted to MK-2 standards. Currently there is no order cause MK-2 is just completing tests. Wait for it and see the order yourself.


Why to upgrade MK-I?? Let army get trained in MK-I and IA start ordering 500+ Arjuna MK-II... 


hahahaah how  what reliability you will have if you promise me BMW and delivered ford  

All due to changing requirement. Plan is simple, First ask Maruti when we made Maruti, They change the order to ford.. Message was clear if you can't give us ford we will cancel order and buy Maruti from foreign (with massive bribe). We Agreed and made ford, Then they asked for BMW. Message again was clear, if you can't deliver BMW we will cancel order and buy Maruti from foreign (with Massive bribe)....


And blame will go to HAL/DRDO... 


> One fun fact for you : Show me any reference were DRDO/ADA/HAL said anything about induction of MK-1 as is. If you remember it was saint Antony who stood on their heads to fast track the process. Otherwise those idiots were still look for next time line.
> 
> And even today DRDO isn't backing out form its mouth steam. I hope you don't want me to give links for that


----------



## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> Though IAF and MoD doesn't manage LCA, they cannot run away from taking blame. It was IAF dream to have 42 Squadrons. They should learn from IN. Remember how IN chief blasted HAL/ADA for delay in N-LCA. As a customer its your duty to push your vendor.



What balme ??? IAF isnt dreaming about 42 Sqds. They need it for operational doctorine. They need LCA to fill up low end.
Now tell me when and why saint antony stood on DRDO's head ???
Didnt you recall the IAF chief publicly telling DRDO to hurry up on LCA ??? 
Did you know in 2002 DRDO themself realise 404 isnt sufficient for for power and they need more powerful engine like 414. Google it and you will find "the hindu" articles about it. I have posted them in some thread here in PDF but couldnt remember which thread. And see when they actaully palce the order .
The JV to improve Kaveri us being talked from2007. When did RFP send out for that ??? 
And on contrary to what you are saying DRDO always find an excuse to extend the time line. They never look eager to finsih in time what they promise. 
Even when few months ago saint himself tell them dont extend the line any more , 15 days later DRDO chief said its impossible to do it this year  and just after that Mr. Chandar took the job he is saying it would be done well within time. So what that tell you ???
The PSU is always saying they need more time then which force in the world will induct it ???
Lets not get started with radar claims or other operational claims like AOA. 


> Rafale is not replacement for LCA. Indian MiG27/23 are also on verge of retirement. EFT was replacement for LCA Rafale is replacement for Ground attack fighter.


 Mig-27 are grounded for 2 years now and are used as only active standby. They are going to retire them in 2015. Mig-23 will follow Mig-27

EFT isnt something that coming to IAF so lets not go there.
If you dont know current Mig-21 sqds are replaced by MKIs.
IAF form last decade decided not to have dedicated role fighter but to go for swing role platforms. Thats why costly upgrade of Miraj and Jags.

You yourself saying LCA is supposed to be intercepter , yes you are right but what our PSUs choose to do ??? They add ground attack capabilities first and now working on A2A 
And you want IAF to induct LCA for intercepter role. Now tell me am i missing something here ???



> You are living in la-la land. ALH has many buyer, just use google. If IAF/IA stop procurement HAL will look for foreign buyer. Lanka, Nepal, Africa, Latin America, East Asia, Corporates, State Govt etc are the potential buyer.
> 
> No one give f$$$$$$$ing sh&t to IAF and IA when ALH come into market..


 hahahaha what you called a la la land is pure economics and you are constantly failing to understand it. 
First thing ALH is already in market. And MHA is already pissed at them for not returning ALH for more than year which were send to servicing  they are looking to buy form other venders.

Cost per unit of anything that you produce includes ( R&D costs + material costs + resource cost + + depreciation costs + labour costs + other IP costs like consultancy + marketing costs ) 

And use google more to dig data and tell me the total order of all of your so called customers in 1/10 th of IA/IAF order ???
And please get yourself informed on how these birds are sold to existing forgine customers. Its not hard cash.
And Fact remains -Even though the bird is good it doesn't simply get itself sold if your own force is not using it. 



> offcourse because Apache comes with more dalali... and moreover both are different class fighters... LCH is light while Apache is Heavy class. I will be furious if IAF/IA will buy Cobra ignoring LCH.


AFAIK there is no such thing as light and heavy attack chopper. They are just attack choppers. If I am not wrong @sancho explained it in some thread.
I dont see Cobras coming either. 



> Why to upgrade MK-I?? Let army get trained in MK-I and IA start ordering 500+ Arjuna MK-II...


Why did you think IA is not training with MK-1 ??? I myself saw MK-1 in MIRC , A.Nagar.
We have simulator to train too.
Arjuna is usable on only western front. We currently have enough force projection there. So we are not in hurry. 
Then why do you want to use MK-1 when MK-2 has 50+ improvements ??? And MK-2 is near complition.
Everything is good. Why waist resources ???
IA & MOD decided to scrap FMBT project for Arjuna MK-3. 
About buying russian tanks ,
We had T-90 we bough T-90S and upgrade to existing T-90s. Now russians are pushing T-90MS but we are not buying system as a whole, only upgrades for Ms standards; We will need tanks in NE and Arjuna isn't going to work there so we have to buy. So you logic behind Arjuna sabotage and T-90 order is not correct. Even if that sabotage wouldn't have happened we would have gone for T-90 order as we need them in NE. 

All due to changing requirement. Plan is simple, First ask Maruti when we made Maruti, They change the order to ford.. Message was clear if you can't give us ford we will cancel order and buy Maruti from foreign (with massive bribe). We Agreed and made ford, Then they asked for BMW. Message again was clear, if you can't deliver BMW we will cancel order and buy Maruti from foreign (with Massive bribe)....
And blame will go to HAL/DRDO... [/QUOTE]

Hahhaa yes you understand the concept. Good 
Now tell me what did IAF asked for ???
And also dont forget to tell me what DRDO promised for ???

What I will say IAF want simple intercepter to replace Mig-21. Simple as that. Techno growth cause the requirement drastically in 2002 but still that was only intercepter. DRDO decided to go for swing role  and IAF changing its course to have multirole plane like that Why would they ask for intercepter if DRDO is claiming we can make a good low cost multirole plane ???
And this s@it continue till saraswat himself made LO stealth LCA MK-3  
Please show me where in world IAF or MOD want sarawat to make stealth out of LCA ??? He just said it.

Few years ago when MK-1 was maturing, same guy - Saraswat - came in media with more powerful and agile MK-2 , why IAF will order MK-1 then ???

You are blaming IAF for wanting the best which seller is claiming to have. 

+ IAF requirements didnt change over night. 10 years is very big period and warfare methods and tech change fast. 
Correct me if I am wrong. 

+ plus I would like more data to support your claims. That will be good for argument 


If you dont mind will you tell me which toothpaste and cellphone do you use ???
I use Dabur Red not because its indian just because its best out there
Similarly I use Apple iPhone and not maxx

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## Manindra

@Black Widow @Sergi Kindly don't post in colour fonts because its dificult to read.



> Mig-27 are grounded for 2 years now and are used as only active standby. They are going to retire them in 2015. *Mig-23 *will follow Mig-27



MIG-23 retired long ago.


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## Sergi

Manindra said:


> @Black Widow @Sergi Kindly don't post in colour fonts because its dificult to read.
> 
> 
> 
> MIG-23 retired long ago.



I am pretty sure 23s are still in active reserve. If you have more info please share.
I am not posting in colour, I am just quoting him and he might have added colour


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## SRP

Sergi said:


> I am pretty sure 23s are still in active reserve. If you have more info please share.
> I am not posting in colour, I am just quoting him and he might have added colour



Mig23s retired now. Mig 27 still in active service.

India decommissions last MiG-23 ground support aircraft | World | RIA Novosti


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## Sergi

desert warrior said:


> Mig23s retired now. Mig 27 still in active service.
> 
> India decommissions last MiG-23 ground support aircraft | World | RIA Novosti



I will check my source for 23 and will get back to you. And i do hope you didnt confuse "active reservers" with "active service"
For Mig-27 - their engine - R-29 developed some defects which were not possible to rectify. So court of enquiry instituted for one crash advised to retire them by 2017. But due to another cash IAF grounded the entire fleet and now they are kept as active reserves and most of them will be retired in 2015. Only one or two will be kept till 2017.

Thats from IAF.


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## Manindra

Sergi said:


> I am pretty sure 23s are still in active reserve. If you have more info please share.
> I am not posting in colour, I am just quoting him and he might have added colour



Its not a good idea to put a ground attack aircraft in reserve when you have plenty of far more capable ground attack aircrafts like Jaguar & MIG-27 in your inventory. Mig-27 would be called reserved because currently it is in active standby mode. Currently we have 269 MIG-21 in which 105 upgraded to Bison variant and in active service & rest 164 are put in reserve.


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## Sergi

Manindra said:


> Its not a good idea to put a ground attack aircraft in reserve when you have plenty of far more capable ground attack aircrafts like Jaguar & MIG-27 in your inventory. Mig-27 would be called reserved because currently it is in active standby mode. Currently we have 269 MIG-21 in which 105 upgraded to Bison variant and in active service & rest 164 are put in reserve.



"Active reserve" is for the time of crisis. Those planes are airworthy but you dont use them unless and until necessary. and it doesnt have to do anything with which planes are in service and which not.


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## Manindra

Sergi said:


> "Active reserve" is for the time of crisis. Those planes are airworthy but you dont use them unless and until necessary. and it doesnt have to do anything with which planes are in service and which not.



In active reserves you have to maintain fleets without using it which IAF done in MIG-21 case because its IAF only intercepter but for ground attack we have in service 108 Jaguar & plenty of MIG-27 (to be called active reserve because IAF grounded it now)
Maintaining active reserve is costly & it is stupid to IAF to maintain active reserve fleet of a outdated fighter when more capable fighter with more number is already in reserve.


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## Sergi

Manindra said:


> In active reserves you have to maintain fleets without using it which IAF done in MIG-21 case because its IAF only intercepter but for ground attack we have in service 108 Jaguar & plenty of MIG-27 (to be called active reserve because IAF grounded it now)
> Maintaining active reserve is costly & it is stupid to IAF to maintain active reserve fleet of a outdated fighter when more capable fighter with more number is already in reserve.



Only dedicated intercepter.... NOT only intercepter. Mig-29s and MKIs are more than qualified to do the job. 
And like I said in earlier post and repeating again *"it has nothing to do with what you have and what you don*t" it depend on the policy of AF.

Active reserves are not costly to maintain as they don't fly.
Yu live in Nagpur. There is IAF service command. If you find a retired service guy he can tell you more.


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## Manindra

Sergi said:


> Only dedicated intercepter.... NOT only intercepter. Mig-29s and MKIs are more than qualified to do the job.
> And like I said in earlier post and repeating again *"it has nothing to do with what you have and what you don*t" it depend on the policy of AF.
> 
> Active reserves are not costly to maintain as they don't fly.
> Yu live in Nagpur. There is IAF service command. If you find a retired service guy he can tell you more.



This is not wise idea to use air superiority double engine fighter in interceptor role. Its like use of truck in place of pickup.
As I am saying its a very outdated ground attack aircraft which easy prey even for MANPAD forget SAM with minimal payload & hefty fuel consumption thats why we replace it but we use MIG-21 till now.
If its air superiority or interceptor aircraft instead of ground attack then IAF definitely use it in service forget put it in reserve.

In current scenario IAF would not spend a single penny to maintain it for active reserve. IAF self admitted that they put 164 MIG-21 & MIG-27 in reserve but never mention MIG-23

Air Force Central command HQ is in Nagpur & classmate's uncle is an IAF retired wing commander & he explain me when I ask why IAF retired MIG-23 but use MIG-21 which is more old compare to MIG-23


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## Sergi

Manindra said:


> This is not wise idea to use air superiority double engine fighter in interceptor role. Its like use of truck in place of pickup.
> As I am saying its a very outdated ground attack aircraft which easy prey even for MANPAD forget SAM with minimal payload & hefty fuel consumption thats why we replace it but we use MIG-21 till now.
> If its air superiority or interceptor aircraft instead of ground attack then IAF definitely use it in service forget put it in reserve.
> 
> In current scenario IAF would not spend a single penny to maintain it for active reserve. IAF self admitted that they put 164 MIG-21 & MIG-27 in reserve but never mention MIG-23
> 
> Air Force Central command HQ is in Nagpur & classmate's uncle is an IAF retired wing commander & he explain me when I ask why IAF retired MIG-23 but use MIG-21 which is more old compare to MIG-23



Your problem is you assume too much. 
You are I live in free country and you can believe what you want . 

Again "Active reserve" is a concept for crisis. And it doesnt have to do with what you have and what you don't. And even what I am writing is from a retired high ranker IAF officer 
&#2344;&#2366;&#2327;&#2346;&#2369;&#2352;&#2325;&#2352; &#2340;&#2369;&#2350;&#2381;&#2361;&#2366;&#2354;&#2366;/&#2350;&#2354;&#2366; &#2357;&#2366;&#2335;&#2340; &#2350;&#2381;&#2361;&#2339;&#2369;&#2344; &#2344;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2325;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2361;&#2379;&#2340;. &#2311;&#2341; &#2350;&#2368; &#2332;&#2366;&#2360;&#2381;&#2340; &#2344;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2354;&#2367;&#2361;&#2370; &#2358;&#2325;&#2340;.


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## Manindra

Sergi said:


> Your problem is you assume too much.
> You are I live in free country and you can believe what you want .
> 
> Again "Active reserve" is a concept for crisis. And it doesnt have to do with what you have and what you don't. And even what I am writing is from a retired high ranker IAF officer
> &#2344;&#2366;&#2327;&#2346;&#2369;&#2352;&#2325;&#2352; &#2340;&#2369;&#2350;&#2381;&#2361;&#2366;&#2354;&#2366;/&#2350;&#2354;&#2366; &#2357;&#2366;&#2335;&#2340; &#2350;&#2381;&#2361;&#2339;&#2369;&#2344; &#2344;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2325;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2361;&#2379;&#2340;. &#2311;&#2341; &#2350;&#2368; &#2332;&#2366;&#2360;&#2381;&#2340; &#2344;&#2366;&#2361;&#2368; &#2354;&#2367;&#2361;&#2370; &#2358;&#2325;&#2340;.



IAF doctrine not suited for kamikaze missions & 70s era MIG-21 is more effective than MIG-23 in current scenario. If you would put it in reserve then you have to spend money on its maintainence which IAF is not hesitate because its more economical to use MIG-21 as reserve which IAF currently do.

PS : I am not assuming that but it is real. Technically MIG-23 is in reserve but not in *Active Reserve*


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## Sergi

Manindra said:


> IAF doctrine not suited for kamikaze missions & 70s era MIG-21 is more effective than MIG-23 in current scenario. If you would put it in reserve then you have to spend money on its maintainence which IAF is not hesitate because its more economical to use MIG-21 as reserve which IAF currently do.
> 
> PS : I am not assuming that but it is real. Technically MIG-23 is in reserve but not in *Active Reserve*



There is no technical/operational term as "reserves" - "stand by reservers" 
One and only "Active reserves" 
And other term being "Operational fighters"

For you satisfaction consider a scenario MKI full loaded for A2A mission escorting Mig-23s for ground run. You dont need to be a Kamikaze to use 23. Thats what I told you you assume too much. 
And above said scenario is true to our existing Jags and Mirajs too. So your point is null.


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## Manindra

Sergi said:


> There is no technical/operational term as "reserves" - "stand by reservers"
> One and only "Active reserves"
> And other term being "Operational fighters"
> 
> For you satisfaction consider a scenario MKI full loaded for A2A mission escorting Mig-23s for ground run. You dont need to be a Kamikaze to use 23. Thats what I told you you assume too much.
> And above said scenario is true to our existing Jags and Mirajs too. So your point is null.



*Active Reserve* : You maintain aircraft but didn't fly.
*Reserve* : You put aircraft but didn't maintain & open option to fly until the aircraft malfunctioned.
*Complete Retired* : You move aircraft from reserve to museum or graveyard.
If such crisis happened we would see MIG-27 not MIG-23


----------



## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> What balme ??? IAF isnt dreaming about 42 Sqds. They need it for operational doctorine. They need LCA to fill up low end.
> Now tell me when and why saint antony stood on DRDO's head ???
> Didnt you recall the IAF chief publicly telling DRDO to hurry up on LCA ???
> Did you know in 2002 DRDO themself realise 404 isnt sufficient for for power and they need more powerful engine like 414. Google it and you will find "the hindu" articles about it. I have posted them in some thread here in PDF but couldnt remember which thread. And see when they actaully palce the order .
> The JV to improve Kaveri us being talked from2007. When did RFP send out for that ???
> And on contrary to what you are saying DRDO always find an excuse to extend the time line. They never look eager to finsih in time what they promise.
> Even when few months ago saint himself tell them dont extend the line any more , 15 days later DRDO chief said its impossible to do it this year  and just after that Mr. Chandar took the job he is saying it would be done well within time. So what that tell you ???
> The PSU is always saying they need more time then which force in the world will induct it ???
> Lets not get started with radar claims or other operational claims like AOA.
> Mig-27 are grounded for 2 years now and are used as only active standby. They are going to retire them in 2015. Mig-23 will follow Mig-27
> 
> EFT isnt something that coming to IAF so lets not go there.
> If you dont know current Mig-21 sqds are replaced by MKIs.
> IAF form last decade decided not to have dedicated role fighter but to go for swing role platforms. Thats why costly upgrade of Miraj and Jags.
> 
> You yourself saying LCA is supposed to be intercepter , yes you are right but what our PSUs choose to do ??? They add ground attack capabilities first and now working on A2A
> And you want IAF to induct LCA for intercepter role. Now tell me am i missing something here ???
> 
> hahahaha what you called a la la land is pure economics and you are constantly failing to understand it.
> First thing ALH is already in market. And MHA is already pissed at them for not returning ALH for more than year which were send to servicing  they are looking to buy form other venders.
> 
> Cost per unit of anything that you produce includes ( R&D costs + material costs + resource cost + + depreciation costs + labour costs + other IP costs like consultancy + marketing costs )
> 
> And use google more to dig data and tell me the total order of all of your so called customers in 1/10 th of IA/IAF order ???
> And please get yourself informed on how these birds are sold to existing forgine customers. Its not hard cash.
> And Fact remains -Even though the bird is good it doesn't simply get itself sold if your own force is not using it.
> 
> 
> AFAIK there is no such thing as light and heavy attack chopper. They are just attack choppers. If I am not wrong @sancho explained it in some thread.
> I dont see Cobras coming either.
> Why did you think IA is not training with MK-1 ??? I myself saw MK-1 in MIRC , A.Nagar.
> We have simulator to train too.
> Arjuna is usable on only western front. We currently have enough force projection there. So we are not in hurry.
> Then why do you want to use MK-1 when MK-2 has 50+ improvements ??? And MK-2 is near complition.
> Everything is good. Why waist resources ???
> IA & MOD decided to scrap FMBT project for Arjuna MK-3.
> About buying russian tanks ,
> We had T-90 we bough T-90S and upgrade to existing T-90s. Now russians are pushing T-90MS but we are not buying system as a whole, only upgrades for Ms standards; We will need tanks in NE and Arjuna isn't going to work there so we have to buy. So you logic behind Arjuna sabotage and T-90 order is not correct. Even if that sabotage wouldn't have happened we would have gone for T-90 order as we need them in NE.
> Hahhaa yes you understand the concept. Good
> Now tell me what did IAF asked for ???
> And also dont forget to tell me what DRDO promised for ???
> What I will say IAF want simple intercepter to replace Mig-21. Simple as that. Techno growth cause the requirement drastically in 2002 but still that was only intercepter. DRDO decided to go for swing role  and IAF changing its course to have multirole plane like that Why would they ask for intercepter if DRDO is claiming we can make a good low cost multirole plane ???
> And this s@it continue till saraswat himself made LO stealth LCA MK-3
> Please show me where in world IAF or MOD want sarawat to make stealth out of LCA ??? He just said it.
> Few years ago when MK-1 was maturing, same guy - Saraswat - came in media with more powerful and agile MK-2 , why IAF will order MK-1 then ???
> You are blaming IAF for wanting the best which seller is claiming to have.
> + IAF requirements didnt change over night. 10 years is very big period and warfare methods and tech change fast.
> Correct me if I am wrong.
> + plus I would like more data to support your claims. That will be good for argument
> If you dont mind will you tell me which toothpaste and cellphone do you use ???
> I use Dabur Red not because its indian just because its best out there
> Similarly I use Apple iPhone and not maxx



Definition: *Arm lobby*:Unauthorized People involve in procurement process who facilitate the deal by taking facilitation charges, these ppl contain serving officer's close one, Politician close one, Beurocrats close one etc. 

I will keep discussion limited to LCA other wise the post will become an article....

What ever you rebuck is 10-15 year old story, we all agree that the dream A B Bajpai saw , St Anthony tried to take that ahead. 

Let me take u little back.
Def Min Mull Mulayam Singh Yadav: Almost Scraped the LCA project on request/persuation of arm lobby.
IAF forced DRDO to accept changed requirement. The message was clear, if research facility won't accept those requirement the deal will scrapped.. I agree it was fault of research facility to accept those requirements, but did they had any choice???


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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> I will keep discussion limited to LCA other wise the post will become an article....



Why not ??? Let it be article. I will read it and will reply.
It will be still better than posting a "Dalal" movie poster 


And please try it point by point. I too want to see your views on our PSUs


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## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> Why not ??? Let it be article. I will read it and will reply.
> It will be still better than posting a "Dalal" movie poster
> 
> 
> And please try it point by point. *I too want to see your views on our PSUs*





My views on PSUs is : They are less managed and less professional approach. If I would have been chief of any such PSU, I would have out Bamboo in rear of those agency who reject the product after deal. I would have dragged them to court and made them to apologize.

The professional way of business: 
Step 1: Requirement gathering
Step 2: requirement analysis
Step 3: Requirement negotiation with customer
Step 4: Time bound Requirement realization
Step 5: Trial and testing
Step 6: Product delivery...

Any (10th generation/imaginary/unrealizable) changes in between will not accepted. If Client close the deal, client have to pay heavy penalty..

*and moreover public announcement of DRDO chief keeps no value, Agreement on paper does matter*.. DRDO chief can say anything (We can make F22), It is irrelevant unless he did such deal with IAF.


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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> *and moreover public announcement of DRDO chief keeps no value, Agreement on paper does matter*.. DRDO chief can say anything (We can make F22), It is irrelevant unless he did such deal with IAF.


Y0u kidding right ???
Dont you know where he said ??? It wasn't a press conference. 

Yu misunderstood me. I want you to reply to my "marathon post" point by point .


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## Shadow_Hunter

Black Widow said:


> My views on PSUs is : They are less managed and less professional approach. If I would have been chief of any such PSU, I would have out Bamboo in rear of those agency who reject the product after deal. I would have dragged them to court and made them to apologize.
> 
> The professional way of business:
> Step 1: Requirement gathering
> Step 2: requirement analysis
> Step 3: Requirement negotiation with customer
> Step 4: Time bound Requirement realization
> Step 5: Trial and testing
> Step 6: Product delivery...
> 
> Any (10th generation/imaginary/unrealizable) changes in between will not accepted. If Client close the deal, client have to pay heavy penalty..
> 
> *and moreover public announcement of DRDO chief keeps no value, Agreement on paper does matter*.. DRDO chief can say anything (We can make F22), It is irrelevant unless he did such deal with IAF.



IIIrd year btech computer science? Thats where u are, right?


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## Black Widow

Shadow_Hunter said:


> IIIrd year btech computer science? Thats where u are, right?





No Sir, 10 year experience in industry...  ..

I know how to deal with Shitty customer..


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## Shadow_Hunter

Black Widow said:


> No Sir, 10 year experience in industry...  ..
> 
> I know how to deal with Shitty customer..



If you did, you wouldn't have made the above post.


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## Black Widow

Shadow_Hunter said:


> If you did, you wouldn't have made the above post.





I will send u resume, refer me for senior Project manager. or program manager post...


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## Sri

I Have a query. The thrust of the current engine 404 is not enough for the IAF and I do believe that there will be a wartime setting ( extra thrust) for 404. Isn't it possible to use this setting for initial order so that with extra thrust IAF would feel better? I know that engine life will get reduced with this setting ( but don't know how much). I am novice on this. Senior pl answer.
Tx


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## Sri

Also the Max (Wet) Thrust is given as 89.854 for IN20 engine.
source Turbofan and turbojet engines: database handbook - Élodie Roux - Google Books


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## Manindra

Sri said:


> I Have a query. The thrust of the current engine 404 is not enough for the IAF and I do believe that there will be a wartime setting ( extra thrust) for 404. Isn't it possible to use this setting for initial order so that with extra thrust IAF would feel better? I know that engine life will get reduced with this setting ( but don't know how much). I am novice on this. Senior pl answer.
> Tx



So, you want to exhaust engine life in peace time. These are use in emergency. Engine are expensive, its like you use kerosene in your car in emergency then use it regular instead of petrol.


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## Sri

Thanks for the Reply

Well if the life lost is say 10 % then may be OK. provided the end user is happy. Current News/reports says that MK1 is not going to be used in Combat.


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## Sergi

Sri said:


> I Have a query. The thrust of the current engine 404 is not enough for the IAF and I do believe that there will be a wartime setting ( extra thrust) for 404. Isn't it possible to use this setting for initial order so that with extra thrust IAF would feel better? I know that engine life will get reduced with this setting ( but don't know how much). I am novice on this. Senior pl answer.
> Tx



Trust isn't the only problem. 
Surely IAF want more powerful engine but only changing engine will not achieve that completely. Thats why airframe in MK-2 is supposed to be modified to reduce drag and achieve weight reduction too.

AFAIK Mk-1 will never be on the combat duty. They will use them to familiarise pilots with LCA and test the plane thoroughly.

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## Black Eagle 90

sudhir007 said:


> *Jamnagar Detachment- July 2013 - LSP-3, LSP-5, LSP-7*



I really don't like the aircraft as now there are even better options available and IAF is having some great problems with their MiGs fleet like: 21, 23/27 and even 29s...

While fighting with China that has huge numbers of F-7s, F-8s, A-5Cs, Su-27s, J-11s and J-10s along with some other bombers and a good deal of F-6s in reserves.


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## sms

Sri said:


> I Have a query. The thrust of the current engine 404 is not enough for the IAF and I do believe that there will be a wartime setting ( extra thrust) for 404. Isn't it possible to use this setting for initial order so that with extra thrust IAF would feel better? I know that engine life will get reduced with this setting ( but don't know how much). I am novice on this. Senior pl answer.
> Tx





Sergi said:


> Trust isn't the only problem.
> Surely IAF want more powerful engine but only changing engine will not achieve that completely. Thats why airframe in MK-2 is supposed to be modified to reduce drag and achieve weight reduction too.
> 
> AFAIK Mk-1 will never be on the combat duty. They will use them to familiarise pilots with LCA and test the plane thoroughly.



Being a layman I'm confused about .....where IAF as end used must focus .... *Either it's the engine thrust or the results (parameters) achieved by whole package*

Keep in mind engine used in LCA is the only providing the thrust. How this thrust is being converted in to speed, how much acceleration (with in the design limits) can be generated, what celling can be achieved, how much weight can be lifted, how much power can be shared with other system ....all these are limited/ affected by design approach.

e.g. if DRDO/ ADA/ HAL put a proposal to use a Bajaj engine and can meet all IAF requirements ....what reservation IAF could have. Wouldn't they be more focused on actual results then engine thrust?

senior member/ experts enlighten me Please!


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## Sergi

sms said:


> Being a layman I'm confused about .....where IAF as end used must focus .... *Either it's the engine thrust or the results (parameters) achieved by whole package*
> 
> Keep in mind engine used in LCA is the only providing the thrust. How this thrust is being converted in to speed, how much acceleration (with in the design limits) can be generated, what celling can be achieved, how much weight can be lifted, how much power can be shared with other system ....all these are limited/ affected by design approach.
> 
> e.g. if DRDO/ ADA/ HAL put a proposal to use a Bajaj engine and can meet all IAF requirements ....what reservation IAF could have. Wouldn't they be more focused on actual results then engine thrust?
> 
> senior member/ experts enlighten me Please!


Its all about T:W ratio. If you can reduce weight you have better thrust from the same engine. 

You use more powerful engine , reduce weight and reduce drag caused by airframe you are good.

Final aim to have a fighter to have enough power to operate in all conditions and scenarios.


IAF isn't focusing on engine they want more thrust so hence is engine change and other above mentioned changes. They don't care which engine DRDO use till it keeps the plane in the air as per they desire.


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## kurup

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I really don't like the aircraft as now there are even better options available and IAF is having some great problems with their MiGs fleet like: 21, 23/27 and even 29s...



MiG 29 is being upgraded and I have not heard of any problem IAF has with them .

LCA is being developed based on requirements set by IAF and I am sorry that they have not included your dislike as a parameter .

There may be other better options avaliable but sometimes to get the job done you necessarily don't need the best .



Black Eagle 90 said:


> While fighting with China that has huge numbers of F-7s, F-8s, A-5Cs, Su-27s, J-11s and J-10s along with some other bombers and a good deal of F-6s in reserves.



India also has a good number of jaguars , M2K , MiG29 , MKI to engage any adversary .

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## Manindra

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I really don't like the aircraft as now there are even better options available and IAF is having some great problems with their MiGs fleet like: 21, 23/27 and even 29s...
> 
> While fighting with China that has huge numbers of F-7s, F-8s, A-5Cs, Su-27s, J-11s and J-10s along with some other bombers and a good deal of F-6s in reserves.



F-7 = MIG-21B better than F-7
F-8 (Same role as F-7) = IAF does not operate dual engine intercepter plane this role played by MIG-21
A-5 ( MIG-19) = ?????? IAF does not operate such old technology plane
SU-27 or J-11 = SU-30 MKI is upper hand
J-10 = MIRAGE-2000, MIG-29
along with IAF operates Jaguar & MIG-27 ground attack fighters.


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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> F-7 = MIG-21B better than F-7
> F-8 (Same role as F-7) = IAF does not operate dual engine intercepter plane this role played by MIG-21
> A-5 ( MIG-19) = ?????? IAF does not operate such old technology plane
> SU-27 or J-11 = SU-30 MKI is upper hand
> J-10 = MIRAGE-2000, MIG-29
> along with IAF operates Jaguar & MIG-27 ground attack fighters.



Hey guy J-10 is no match against Mig 29 specially Mig 29 UPG and Mirage UPG and Su 27 and U-11 and Su30 MKK are no match for MKI.

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## Manindra

vsdave2302 said:


> Hey guy J-10 is no match against Mig 29 specially Mig 29 UPG and Mirage UPG and Su 27 and *U-11* and Su30 MKK are no match for MKI.



Its J-11 & I didn't said that they are same but their role are same & in same class.


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## SpArK

Tejas' over the Jaisalmer Fort.

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## eastwatch

Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy

India And The Tejas Tragedy

April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably. 

*The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.*

This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.

The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.


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## Tshering22

eastwatch said:


> Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy
> 
> India And The Tejas Tragedy
> 
> April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably.
> 
> *The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.*
> 
> This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.
> 
> The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.
> 
> The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.
> 
> There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.
> 
> For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.



After sales support is a nightmare with HAL. 

I have colleagues of my brothers who are drafted to Army Aviation and operate Dhruvs.

They say that the performance of Dhruv for example, is excellent.

But the supply chain of HAL, the service quality of HAL and other after-sales tech support is a serious problem.

Apparently it is the same with Tejas.

The thing however, is that HAL along with MOD has already started working on opening more facilities for assembling for Tejas, stocking spares and additional support.

So by the end of this decade, we'd have a full fledged supply chain.

It is sadly inadequate at the moment.

But in its 2200 flights, Tejas has flown very well without even a hint of crashing.

Shows the good quality stuff.

If only HAL could speed it up, eliminating bureaucracy.

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## HariPrasad

Any reason for posting 4 months old news?

We have stepped in fighter plane making with a bang. We have successfully crossed all the hurdles. From now onward there will be no looking back. We shall make a rapid progress like we did in Missiles. No body can now stop us from becoming a leader in Fighter plane and other aeronautics. Within a decade we shall be making planes that are best among the world.

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## SR-91

Yo *DODO*

You can put a 1000 articles mocking LCA,Here is a simple fact, LCA is the only fighter jet in the WORLD that hasn't crashed

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## eastwatch

HariPrasad said:


> *Any reason for posting 4 months old news?*
> 
> We have stepped in fighter plane making with a bang. We have successfully crossed all the hurdles. From now onward there will be no looking back. We shall make a rapid progress like we did in Missiles. No body can now stop us from becoming a leader in Fighter plane and other aeronautics. Within a decade we shall be making planes that are best among the world.



Are there any new improvements on how Tejas and its Kaveri Engine function? If not, the contents of the article stands effective as of today.

I wonder, considering the mindset of people of SA, if Tejas have become a goose that lay gold egg for some high up people every time it fails and more money is injected in the name of nationalism and technology development!!


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## GURU DUTT

well to all those who love to make fun of LCA few facts 

1. it has never crashed unlike some super duper planes china and pakistan 

2. it will be having an ASEA radar and latest EW suite thanks to joint venture between Israel & india 

3. Most of the wepons be it ground attack or air to air are already tested with it 

4. LCA has been tested thouroghli with both in night and day condition at almost al over the india & all weather tests the tejas has never dissapointed 

now the problem lies with corrupt IAF and HAL baboos and the greedy lot who want to shelv it for there kick backs but since it is owrs we will have it maybe a few years late but whats the hurry we already have the best airforce in asia and very soon we will be having FGFA & Rafale aswell dont worry


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## HariPrasad

eastwatch said:


> Are there any new improvements on how Tejas and its Kaveri Engine function? If not, the contents of the article stands effective as of today.
> 
> I wonder, considering the mindset of people of SA, if Tejas have become a goose that lay gold egg for some high up people every time it fails and more money is injected in the name of nationalism and technology development!!



Yes,

Article says that it takes several days to prepare plane for another flight. A lots flights of same plane took place twice a day and 4 times in 3 days proving content of article wrong. There is no such maintenance problem exist.

In Iron fist 2013, we show plane taking off in just 12 second. We show superb agility. All this is a part of development. You perhaps won't understand that. 

Kaveri engine is doing good in testing in russia.

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## eastwatch

GURU DUTT said:


> well to all those who love to make fun of LCA few facts
> 
> 1. it has never crashed unlike some super duper planes china and pakistan
> 
> 2. it will be having an ASEA radar and latest EW suite thanks to joint venture between Israel & india
> 
> 3. Most of the wepons be it ground attack or air to air are already tested with it
> 
> 4. LCA has been tested thouroghli with both in night and day condition at almost al over the india & all weather tests the tejas has never dissapointed
> 
> now the problem lies with corrupt IAF and HAL baboos and the greedy lot who want to shelv it for there kick backs but since it is owrs we will have it maybe a few years late but whats the hurry we already have the best airforce in asia and very soon we will be having FGFA & Rafale aswell dont worry



I think the technical people who want to shelve this unattainable project are patriotic. In my opinion, Tejas should be abandoned along with its engine Kaveri. But, the experience the technical team has gained so far should be transfered to develop a completely new jet.

However, considering the history of building jet engines in the past by the westerners that took them a COMBINED 200 years or more, it can be said that no amount of Indian effort will give it a reliable engine *within a short space of time*. Internal metallurgy of a jet engine seems to be quite complex. Many trials and failures are needed over a long time to acquire such a knowledge.

So, it is ok if India keeps on developing a jet engine of its own, but Indians should not expect this engine to be reliable in a war zone. It is wiser for India to get outside help to design not only the frame of a new platform but also how to incorporate functional avionics in it.


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## Black Eagle 90

SpArK said:


> Tejas' over the Jaisalmer Fort.



So when ready by 2016 or 2018. Will it be powered by F-18E/F engines???

I am really looking forward of IAF acquiring 200 Rafaels, may be directly from France and may be some IJTs and AJT from France and Italy too....

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## GURU DUTT

eastwatch said:


> I think the technical people who want to shelve this unattainable project are patriotic. In my opinion, Tejas should be abandoned along with its engine Kaveri. But, the experience the technical team has gained so far should be transfered to develop a completely new jet.
> 
> However, considering the history of building jet engines in the past by the westerners that took them a COMBINED 200 years or more, it can be said that no amount of Indian effort will give it a reliable engine *within a short space of time*. Internal metallurgy of a jet engine seems to be quite complex. Many trials and failures are needed over a long time to acquire such a knowledge.
> 
> So, it is ok if India keeps on developing a jet engine of its own, but Indians should not expect this engine to be reliable in a war zone. It is wiser for India to get outside help to design not only the frame of a new platform but also how to incorporate functional avionics in it.


well dont worry about tejas and owr money spent on it we are not asking for your expert opinion or financial help for the security of owr nation 

now about tejas we dont see any immidiate threat and whatever is there we already have enof to counter it and we are building owr economy and defences side by side 

late or very late tejas is owr baby and we wont kill it just because its late deal with it it is going to have a very power full american egine producing 98 KN and will have an Israeli ASEA and EW suite + all ISRAELI, FRENCH and Russian air to air missiles and LGBs 

Good luck

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## rockstarIN

July 2013 Tejas Video during outstation trails.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10200353920231399





I love the way it approaches for landing..!!

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## BlueDot_in_Space

rockstarIN said:


> July 2013 Tejas Video during outstation trails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10200353920231399
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the way it approaches for landing..!!



Flying in the monsoon clouds!! rain and lightning proof!!!

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## jimmydefence

Why no updates on LCA flight tests? Is it grounded?


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## SR-91



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## rockstarIN

jimmydefence said:


> Why no updates on LCA flight tests? Is it grounded?



tests are going on in good pace, but now they are not releasing the test flight details in ADA website. it shows the data only till July 2011.

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## Abingdonboy



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## Bullet500

Abingdonboy said:


>



I never liked this aircraft but from past few weeks I have started admiring this little aircraft. there are few issues here and there but those can be ironed out over time. 

Few days back I couldnt stand the sight of lca but I started watching it fly over Bangalore skies I would run to roof to catch a sight of this tiny bird. Its our baby and I like it. Now I have high expectations from mk2 hope we wont get disappointed. good luck Lca!

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## HariPrasad

Bullet500 said:


> I never liked this aircraft but from past few weeks I have started admiring this little aircraft. there are few issues here and there but those can be ironed out over time.
> 
> Few days back I couldnt stand the sight of lca but I started watching it fly over Bangalore skies I would run to roof to catch a sight of this tiny bird. Its our baby and I like it. Now I have high expectations from mk2 hope we wont get disappointed. good luck Lca!



I see a potential winner in LCA. It offers a lot in its early stage of development. I see this bird bringing wonders for us in next 10 years of time. I see it carrying almost same load as its weight or even more. I see it developed in low observability aircraft. I see it a aircraft pilot want to go to war with. I see its full potential exploited in MK 3 version. I see it as the test bed of many new aerodynamics wonders to come from India. We are mastering technologies one by one. AESA is next and then Kaveri 10. I see a new MMRCA in making in light Tejas.

I just read the news that long range missile was fired from LCA tejas.

Good going Tejas

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## HariPrasad

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing long range beyond visual range weapons.

Images released by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for the design and development of the LCA programme showed the Tejas carrying the weaponry.

Tejas carries long range beyond visual range weapons, with highly agile high off-bore-sight missiles to tackle any close combat threat. A wide variety of air-to-ground munitions and an extremely accurate navigation and attack system allow it to prosecute surface targets over land or at sea, giving the Tejas true multi/swing role capability,stated the ADA.

Recently, defence minister AK Antony had asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the ADA to strictly adhere to the planned schedules for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of the LCA by end of 2013 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end of 2014 to ensure the aircrafts timely induction in the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The LCA programme has been in development mode for more than two decades and the aircraft, which has since 2004 completed 2,278 test flights, is yet to attain clearance to be inducted into the IAF. Two years ago, the LCA programme was to be given an IOC, signalling that it has crossed the first hurdle to join the IAF. But it was only granted partial clearance (IOC-1). At an IOC ceremony on January 10, 2011, in Bangalore, the then chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, expressed his displeasure over the aircraft, stating that it was only partially complainant and that to meet the air forces requirement, it would need several refinements. Hence an IOC-2 and FOC has been planned before its induction.

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/1876531/report-lca-tejas-closes-in-on-the-iaf

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## rockstarIN

HariPrasad said:


> The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing &#8216;long range beyond visual range weapons&#8217;.
> 
> I*mages released by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for the design and development of the LCA programme showed the Tejas carrying the weaponry.
> 
> &#8220;Tejas carries long range beyond visual range weapons,* with highly agile high off-bore-sight missiles to tackle any close combat threat. A wide variety of air-to-ground munitions and an extremely accurate navigation and attack system allow it to prosecute surface targets over land or at sea, giving the Tejas true multi/swing role capability,&#8221;stated the ADA.
> 
> Recently, defence minister AK Antony had asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the ADA to strictly adhere to the planned schedules for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of the LCA by end of 2013 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end of 2014 to ensure the aircraft&#8217;s timely induction in the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The LCA programme has been in development mode for more than two decades and the aircraft, which has since 2004 completed 2,278 test flights, is yet to attain clearance to be inducted into the IAF. Two years ago, the LCA programme was to be given an IOC, signalling that it has crossed the first hurdle to join the IAF. But it was only granted partial clearance (IOC-1). At an IOC ceremony on January 10, 2011, in Bangalore, the then chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, expressed his displeasure over the aircraft, stating that it was only &#8216;partially complainant&#8217; and that to meet the air force&#8217;s requirement, it would need several refinements. Hence an IOC-2 and FOC has been planned before its induction.
> 
> LCA Tejas closes in on the IAF - Bangalore - DNA



Where is the pictures?


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## HariPrasad

rockstarIN said:


> Where is the pictures?



Pl Follow the link.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/272225-lca-tejas-july-weapons-trials-jamnagar.html


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## rockstarIN

HariPrasad said:


> Pl Follow the link.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/272225-lca-tejas-july-weapons-trials-jamnagar.html



In the picture, there is only R-73 I think. No BVR missiles as mentioned in the link.


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## Sri

Does it mean it Fired Derby? Kinda confused as there seems to be some problem with Radome and last heard was BVR will be tested only after Radome issue is fixed.


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## SRP

As the Tejas speeds towards IOC-II, it appears that a crucial hurdle may slow it down, the platform needs a new radome. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has sent out an expression of interest to vendors to "design, develop and manufacture radome for LCA". The ADA's Directorate of Avionics & Weapon Systems in the EOI of September 2012 notes that it is "looking for alternative radome for LCA as part of their product improvement activity".

The EoI stipulates that the new radome is "to replace the existing radome with improved electromagnetic performance (EM) and with no change in existing geometry and pitot attachments." Also, the new radome needs to have identical geometry, though surface smoothness needs to be "equivalent or better". The document also suggests that the team testing the Tejas has issues with the lightning protection system of the existing radome and that there is rain water ingress at the radome-fuselage junction in the current structure.

source-SP's Special Correspondent


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## rockstarIN

desert warrior said:


> As the Tejas speeds towards IOC-II, it appears that a crucial hurdle may slow it down, the platform needs a new radome. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has sent out an expression of interest to vendors to "design, develop and manufacture radome for LCA". The ADA's Directorate of Avionics & Weapon Systems in the EOI of September 2012 notes that it is "looking for alternative radome for LCA as part of their product improvement activity".
> 
> The EoI stipulates that the new radome is "to replace the existing radome with improved electromagnetic performance (EM) and with no change in existing geometry and pitot attachments." Also, the new radome needs to have identical geometry, though surface smoothness needs to be "equivalent or better". The document also suggests that the team testing the Tejas has issues with the lightning protection system of the existing radome and that there is rain water ingress at the radome-fuselage junction in the current structure.
> 
> source-SP's Special Correspondent


From PV-3 we have working radars in all prototypes/LSPs. 

They knew it from quite long time ago and might be in the verge of solving it.


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## A G 1046

Hathi nikal gya hai bas poonch reh gayee hai ....wo bhi nikal hi jayegi

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## S-DUCT

SP's Aviation - SPs Exculsive

*August 21, 2013*: The first prototype of the LCA Tejas Mk.2 could be rolled out in 2014, it has been revealed. In an exercise to locate and certify line-replaceable units for the evolved Mk.II jet, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has revealed to prospective development partners and suppliers of a hydraulic pump, among other components and systems "HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and qualification of certain LRUs required for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first prototype aircraft is slated for built during 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for induction to fleet which is stated to be taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards."

The timelines appear optimistic, especially since 2014 is when the LCA Mk.I will only be attaining final operational clearance towards squadron service. That being said, work has indeed begun in right earnest at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and HAL to build a mock-up of the new jet before getting started on metal cutting for the prototype. A whole raft of tenders and request for information have flown out from both agencies for several different kinds of metal, composites and systems to put the new jet together.

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## IND151

Tejas weapon trials at Jamnagar | idrw.org


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## IND151

*The first prototype of the LCA Tejas Mk.2 could be rolled out in 2014*, it has been revealed. In an exercise to locate and certify line-replaceable units for the evolved Mk.II jet, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has revealed to prospective development partners and suppliers of a hydraulic pump, among other components and systems &#8220;HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and qualification of certain LRUs required for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first prototype aircraft is slated for built during 2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for induction to fleet which is stated to be taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.&#8221;

The timelines appear optimistic, especially since 2014 is when the LCA Mk.I will only be attaining final operational clearance towards squadron service. That being said, work has indeed begun in right earnest at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and HAL to build a mock-up of the new jet before getting started on metal cutting for the prototype. A whole raft of tenders and request for information have flown out from both agencies for several different kinds of metal, composites and systems to put the new jet together.

First LCA Tejas Mk.II prototype next year? | idrw.org

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## HariPrasad

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing 'long range beyond visual range weapons'. 

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing 'long range beyond visual range weapons'.

Images released by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for the design and development of the LCA programme showed the Tejas carrying the weaponry.

Tejas carries long range beyond visual range weapons, with highly agile high off-bore-sight missiles to tackle any close combat threat. A wide variety of air-to-ground munitions and an extremely accurate navigation and attack system allow it to prosecute surface targets over land or at sea, giving the Tejas true multi/swing role capability,stated the ADA.

Recently, defence minister AK Antony had asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the ADA to strictly adhere to the planned schedules for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of the LCA by end of 2013 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end of 2014 to ensure the aircrafts timely induction in the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The LCA programme has been in development mode for more than two decades and the aircraft, which has since 2004 completed 2,278 test flights, is yet to attain clearance to be inducted into the IAF. Two years ago, the LCA programme was to be given an IOC, signalling that it has crossed the first hurdle to join the IAF. But it was only granted partial clearance (IOC-1). 

At an IOC ceremony on January 10, 2011, in Bangalore, the then chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, expressed his displeasure over the aircraft, stating that it was only partially complainant and that to meet the air forces requirement, it would need several refinements. Hence an IOC-2 and FOC has been planned before its induction.

Defence News - LCA Tejas closes in on the IAF

The latest in LCA development program is that it fired Long range missile. I do not know whether they are integrated with Radar or not.

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## Storm Force

We need the TEJAS to be successful regardless of the fact that it may be semi obselete by WORLD CLASS standards upon its offical induction FOC in 2015.

We need to to put in place a seriel production template so that like CHINA we can mass produce future mk3 lca and AMCA in nos in 10 years from today .

THE FIRST ONE IS ALWAYS THE HARDEST

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## ziaulislam

Manindra said:


> F-7 = MIG-21B better than F-7
> F-8 (Same role as F-7) = IAF does not operate dual engine intercepter plane this role played by MIG-21
> A-5 ( MIG-19) = ?????? IAF does not operate such old technology plane
> SU-27 or J-11 = SU-30 MKI is upper hand
> J-10 = MIRAGE-2000, MIG-29
> along with IAF operates Jaguar & MIG-27 ground attack fighters.


the issue is number, not quality..PLAAF operates "atleast/known" 250+ j-10s.(they may be operating more today)
then there are huge numbers of su 27/30mkk/j-11 nearly 350+
the force multipliers like awecs /refuelers are much more in number in PLAAF..when it it comes to cruise missles bombers or they have a huge number in their arsenal ..they dont operate any q-5 these days, they have the JH-7 these days for that purpose


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## Alfa-Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> the issue is number, not quality..PLAAF operates "atleast/known" 250+ j-10s.(they may be operating more today)
> then there are huge numbers of su 27/30mkk/j-11 nearly 350+
> the force multipliers like awecs /refuelers are much more in number in PLAAF..when it it comes to cruise missles bombers or they have a huge number in their arsenal ..they dont operate any q-5 these days, they have the JH-7 these days for that purpose


In today scenarios , quality matters then quantity. a good Jammer can jam radar of 100 flying plane and make them as good as sitting ducks.

Moreover the those planes can pass Himalayas with their full loads, Even if they pass himalayas they cant get back.

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## Manindra

ziaulislam said:


> the issue is number, not quality..PLAAF operates "atleast/known" 250+ j-10s.(they may be operating more today)
> then there are huge numbers of su 27/30mkk/j-11 nearly 350+
> the force multipliers like awecs /refuelers are much more in number in PLAAF..when it it comes to cruise missles bombers or they have a huge number in their arsenal ..they dont operate any q-5 these days, they have the JH-7 these days for that purpose



Correct but China has also have to deal with USAF, JSDAF whom have large fleet of advance aircraft where China outnumbered by quantity & quality. Everyone is balanced with their power.

China have not retired Q-5 officially.


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## sudhir007

LCAs to be ready by mid-2014, says India's top scientist - The Times of India

Production work to roll out the country's first indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas began in full throttle and the first few aircraft should roll out by mid-2014, India's top defence scientist said on Friday.

The lightweight multi-role combat aircraft, which is in the making for 30 years now, has gone through several phases of streamlining in the drawing room after the armed forces expressed reservation about its faulty initial design.

The LCAs are supposed to replace India's ageing fleet of MiGs, and Avinash Chander, the newly-appointed chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and scientific advisor to defence minister AK Antony was hopeful that things had finally fallen into place. "As such, the production work has already started full throttle. So, currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent the rolling out of first lot of these indigenously built LCA by middle of next year," Chander told TOI.

"Production rate, I believe is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.

Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has now been set at 2013 year end, Chander said he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by September-end.

"Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern Light Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel to save precious time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given," said the DRDO chief.

For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of the air staff.

Engines manufactured by United States-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract way back in 2010.

After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414), for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India, after obtaining licence under a Transfer of Technology agreement.

HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I for IAF and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.

Officials said that having undergone extensive weapon trials, all weather trials, various angle attacks and having checked various parameters, LCA Tejas, once ready will be capable of carrying out long range beyond visual range weapons.


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## he-man

sudhir007 said:


> LCAs to be ready by mid-2014, says India's top scientist - The Times of India
> 
> Production work to roll out the country's first indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas began in full throttle and the first few aircraft should roll out by mid-2014, India's top defence scientist said on Friday.
> 
> The lightweight multi-role combat aircraft, which is in the making for 30 years now, has gone through several phases of streamlining in the drawing room after the armed forces expressed reservation about its faulty initial design.
> 
> The LCAs are supposed to replace India's ageing fleet of MiGs, and Avinash Chander, the newly-appointed chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and scientific advisor to defence minister AK Antony was hopeful that things had finally fallen into place. "As such, the production work has already started full throttle. So, currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent the rolling out of first lot of these indigenously built LCA by middle of next year," Chander told TOI.
> 
> "Production rate, I believe is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.
> 
> Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has now been set at 2013 year end, Chander said he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by September-end.
> 
> "Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern Light Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel to save precious time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given," said the DRDO chief.
> 
> For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of the air staff.
> 
> Engines manufactured by United States-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract way back in 2010.
> 
> After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414), for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India, after obtaining licence under a Transfer of Technology agreement.
> 
> HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I for IAF and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.
> 
> Officials said that having undergone extensive weapon trials, all weather trials, various angle attacks and having checked various parameters, LCA Tejas, once ready will be capable of carrying out long range beyond visual range weapons.



Where is the IOC-2??

First achieve one landmark,,,,then talk about next 6 months,pathetic


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## SR-91

he-man said:


> Where is the IOC-2??
> 
> First achieve one landmark,,,,then talk about next 6 months,pathetic




Under new chief,Process has picked up momentum.Have patience brother.IOC 2 is due by Nov.

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## Echo_419

ziaulislam said:


> the issue is number, not quality..PLAAF operates "atleast/known" 250+ j-10s.(they may be operating more today)
> then there are huge numbers of su 27/30mkk/j-11 nearly 350+
> the force multipliers like awecs /refuelers are much more in number in PLAAF..when it it comes to cruise missles bombers or they have a huge number in their arsenal ..they dont operate any q-5 these days, they have the JH-7 these days for that purpose



Thread Says LCA NEWS & DISCUSSIONS is to hard to read or what 
Open a new thread if you wanna discuss F-7 & other things

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## hurt

Alfa-Fighter said:


> In today scenarios , quality matters then quantity. a good Jammer can jam radar of 100 flying plane and make them as good as sitting ducks.
> 
> Moreover the those planes can pass Himalayas with their full loads, Even if they pass himalayas they cant get back.


Do you know what's AEW?
Do you know what's missile Effective Range?



Manindra said:


> Correct but China has also have to deal with USAF, JSDAF whom have large fleet of advance aircraft where China outnumbered by quantity & quality. Everyone is balanced with their power.
> 
> China have not retired Q-5 officially.



Do you not deal with Pak?


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## he-man

hurt said:


> Do you know what's AEW?
> Do you know what's missile Effective Range?
> 
> 
> Do you not deal with Pak?




wow now pakistan has same level as japan,,,usa

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## hurt

he-man said:


> wow now pakistan has same level as japan,,,usa



for india &#65292;I think so


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## he-man

hurt said:


> for india &#65292;I think so



then u need to drink bournvita and eat almonds to sharpen ur brain

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## hurt

he-man said:


> then u need to drink bournvita and eat almonds to sharpen ur brain



Do you know JASDF weaker than IAF?
Do you know how much US Fighers around China?


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## he-man

hurt said:


> Do you know JASDF weak than IAF?
> Do you know how much US Fighers around China?



u don't even make any sense........pls go to google translate to make urself clear

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## hurt

he-man said:


> u don't even make any sense........pls go to google translate to make urself clear



Talk about JASDF
What's F-15J?
What's Pre-MSIP and J-MSIP?


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## he-man

hurt said:


> Talk about JASDF
> What's F-15J?
> What's Pre-MSIP and J-MSIP?



we are tackling pakistan here with jf-17

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## hurt

he-man said:


> we are tackling pakistan here with jf-17



JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP


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## he-man

hurt said:


> JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP



Whatever makes u happy man........who am i to question ur wisdom

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## Shaped charge

on what parameters is JF-17 superior to the F-15J?

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## he-man

Shaped charge said:


> on what parameters is JF-17 superior to the F-15J?



How dare u question him that........its a common knowledge in china and pakistan foolish kid

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## Hellraiser007

Chinese High IQ on a roll 

This kid is enough to drag the whole average Chinese IQ to low levels

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## hurt

Shaped charge said:


> on what parameters is JF-17 superior to the F-15J?



Now only 50 F-15J/J-MSIPs&#65288;APG-63V1&#65289; can use AAM-4,other 150 F-15Js&#65288;APG-63&#65289; only use AIM-7M.



Hellraiser007 said:


> Chinese High IQ on a roll
> 
> This kid is enough to drag the whole average Chinese IQ to low levels



ignorant
Semi-active radar homing(AIM-7M) and Active radar homing(SD-10) air to air missile which is better?


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## gslv mk3

hurt said:


> JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP


 @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...



hurt said:


> JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP


 @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...



hurt said:


> JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP


 @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...

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## hurt

gslv mk3 said:


> @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...
> 
> 
> 
> @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...
> 
> 
> 
> @mods please move this to.stupid and funny section...



ignorant,F-15J Pre-MSIP = F-15C in 1980


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## gslv mk3

hurt said:


> ignorant,F-15J Pre-MSIP = F-15C in 1980



yeah right,but does JF 17 even have all axis FBW ? We all know what radar its uses ..

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## hurt

gslv mk3 said:


> yeah right,but does JF 17 even have all axis FBW ? We all know what radar its uses ..



Do you know what's missile Effective Range?
JF-17s radar Range is enough.&#65288;75km for 3m2 RCS,130km for 5m2 RCS,F-15 RCS: 10~15m2&#65289;

F-15 is powerful fighter,but F-15J are too old version.
Eg. We all know that Mig-29 without FBW,Su-27 powerful than Mig-29.
But Mig-29SMT with R-77 vs Su-27sk with R-27R,which is powerful?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLJ-7_Radar

F-15J Pre-MISP(AN/APG-63 110KM, AIM-7M)






F-15J J-MISP(AN/APG-63V1 150KM, AAM-4)





US F-15C





JF-17





Su-30Mki

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## peaceful

why argue with indians on such matters? 

they are building the world's most tested jet: LCA. 

we are playing wiht J-31 and J-21. why bother wasting your time?


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## karan.1970

Can you folks please take comparison of F 15 and JF 17 to a JF 17 thread ....

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## SR-91

Tejas to be ready by mid-2014: DRDO chief - The Times of India




HYDERABAD: Work is at full throttle to roll out the country's first indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas and the first fleet would be out by mid-2014, chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation, Avinash Chander, said.

The lightweight multi-role combat aircraft, which has been in the making for 30 years, has gone through several phases of streamlining in the drawing room after the armed forces expressed reservations about its faulty initial design. The LCAs are supposed to replace India's ageing fleet of MiGs, and Chander, who is also the scientific advisor to defence minister, said things have finally fallen into place.

"*The production work has already started at full throttle. Currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent rolling out of the first lot of these indigenously built LCAs by middle of next year,"* Chander told TOI. "The production rate, I believe, is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.

Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has been set as 2013 end, *Chander said he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by end of September. "Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern light combat aircraft would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel tracks to save time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given*," said the DRDO chief. For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of air staff.

Engines manufactured by US-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract in 2010. After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414) for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India after obtaining a licence under a transfer of technology agreement. HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.

Officials said that having undergone extensive weapon trials, weather trials, various angle attacks and having checked various parameters, LCA Tejas will be capable of carrying out long range beyond visual range weapons.



looks like IAF is pretty satisfied and has OK'ed to start production of the first batch even before FOC2.

Great news

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## Manindra

hurt said:


> Do you not deal with Pak?





> Correct but China has also have to deal with USAF, JSDAF whom have large fleet of advance aircraft where China outnumbered by quantity & quality. *Everyone is balanced with their power*.
> 
> China have not retired Q-5 officially.




First read carefully then reply.

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## SR-91

Tejas flight update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2302 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Aug-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-369*,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-93,LSP5-209,*LSP7-53*,NP1-4,*LSP8-24*)

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2298 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Aug-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-368,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-93,LSP5-209,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-23)


A total of *339* flights taken in 2013 till aug

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## HariPrasad

hurt said:


> JF-17 more better than F-15J Pre-MSIP



more better 

Why you guys reply to a person who has this level of Knowledge. Why don't you guys ignore him. This is not the alone Chinese, this is the level of education and understanding of almost all Chinese. From now onward ignore him and like him and continue meaningful discussion.

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## HariPrasad

hurt said:


> Do you know what's missile Effective Range?
> JF-17s radar Range is enough.&#65288;75km for 3m2 RCS,130km for 5m2 RCS,F-15 RCS: 10~15m2&#65289;
> 
> F-15 is powerful fighter,but F-15J are too old version.
> Eg. We all know that Mig-29 without FBW,Su-27 powerful than Mig-29.
> But Mig-29SMT with R-77 vs Su-27sk with R-27R,which is powerful?
> 
> KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> F-15J Pre-MISP(AN/APG-63 110KM, AIM-7M)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-15J J-MISP(AN/APG-63V1 150KM, AAM-4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US F-15C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30Mki



Why do not you advice your Government not to buy SU 30 and induct JF 17 when you have such Hi tech plane? Why your government is spending Bn of $ for importing inferior plane when you have such a hi tech plane like JF 17. Why China uses 50 years old Mig 21 instead? Is your Government a fool or lacks the defense expert like you Who is *MORE BATTER *than any body else in china

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## hurt

HariPrasad said:


> Why do not you advice your Government not to buy SU 30 and induct JF 17 when you have such Hi tech plane? Why your government is spending Bn of $ for importing inferior plane when you have such a hi tech plane like JF 17. Why China uses 50 years old Mig 21 instead? Is your Government a fool or lacks the defense expert like you Who is *MORE BATTER *than any body else in china


Sorry to the wrong word,I wasn't born in a former british colony,don't be good at English.
Our target are USAF and USN, and we own enough money to get more powerful Fighers.


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## HariPrasad

hurt said:


> Sorry to the wrong word,I wasn't born in a former british colony,don't be good at English.
> Our target are USAF and USN, and we own enough money to get more powerful Fighers.



Why do not you you extend your frank confession to your pathetic knowledge also. Why don't you confess that you born in a communist colony? 

By the way my target is alien living in other Galaxy. Don't tell it to anybody. It is a secrete!!!!!!!!

Why did you you skip my question on Su 30 MKK?

By the way I do not mind you targeting F 22 with your powerful JF 17.

Best of Luck!!!!!!!!

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## hurt

HariPrasad said:


> Why do not you you extend your frank confession to your pathetic knowledge also. Why don't you confess that you born in a communist colony?
> 
> By the way my target is alien living in other Galaxy. Don't tell it to anybody. It is a secrete!!!!!!!!
> 
> Why did you you skip my question on Su 30 MKK?
> 
> By the way I do not mind you targeting F 22 with your powerful JF 17.
> 
> Best of Luck!!!!!!!!



A communist colony dont change native language,but a former british colony do it.
For PLAAF,Su-30mkk is a long-range strike fighter. 
Do you think JF-17 can be a long-range strike fighter.?
China buy Su-30mkk first time is 1999,2nd time is 2001,but JF-17 be in service from 2007.
We own J-20 and J-31 ,dont need JF-17 vs F22.


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## Echo_419

hurt said:


> A communist colony dont change native language,but a former british colony do it.
> For PLAAF,Su-30mkk is a long-range strike fighter.
> Do you think JF-17 can be a long-range strike fighter.?
> China buy Su-30mkk first time is 1999,2nd time is 2001,but JF-17 be in service from 2007.
> We own J-20 and J-31 ,dont need JF-17 vs F22.



Hello Superior IQ Chinese this Humble low dirty,poor,Illiterate Indian request you to start a new Thread for the things you are discussing 
JF-17 & such Thank you

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## HariPrasad

hurt said:


> A communist colony dont change native language,but a former british colony do it.
> For PLAAF,Su-30mkk is a long-range strike fighter.
> Do you think JF-17 can be a long-range strike fighter.?
> China buy Su-30mkk first time is 1999,2nd time is 2001,but JF-17 be in service from 2007.
> We own J-20 and J-31 ,dont need JF-17 vs F22.



Thank you once again for your frank confession that China is still a communist Colony.

No country change their Native Language but teaches other language so as to enable their citizen to communicate with whole world. But communist Jokers think that other change their native language since in a atmosphere of slavery and worst human right condition worst than any colony, they do not have the privilege to learn any thing they want. 

By the way from where did you learn English?

It is not about long range and short range fighter, it is about technology. Why would a country who claims to have very advance technology will buy inferior weapon for a huge cost from abroad?
China is second largest importer of Weapon after India.

And you skip my question. Why your super duper JF 17 is not deployed in Chinese air force? 

Even today your government is interested in SU 35 and S 400.

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## HariPrasad

Self deleted. Duplicate post.


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## he-man

Alfa-Fighter said:


> The problem is JF-17 is so inferior that PAK also stop taking it after they released it. after 40 please they stop production form last more then one year and Chinese AF Find MIG-21 more good then JF-17.
> 
> He dont know why JF-17 is not being inducted.



They can't afford su-35!!

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## DANGER-ZONE

Alfa-Fighter said:


> The problem is *JF-17 is so inferior that PAK also stop taking it after they released it*. after 40 please they stop production form last more then one year and *Chinese AF Find MIG-21 more good then JF-17*.
> 
> He dont know why JF-17 is not being inducted.



Man .... where did you get this inside news from


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## conworldus

Your information is quite outdated. It appears that China was 9th in 2010, behind even Greece in arms importing, but 4th in arms exporting.

Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





HariPrasad said:


> Thank you once again for your frank confession that China is still a communist Colony.
> 
> No country change their Native Language but teaches other language so as to enable their citizen to communicate with whole world. But communist Jokers think that other change their native language since in a atmosphere of slavery and worst human right condition worst than any colony, they do not have the privilege to learn any thing they want.
> 
> By the way from where did you learn English?
> 
> It is not about long range and short range fighter, it is about technology. Why would a country who claims to have very advance technology will buy inferior weapon for a huge cost from abroad?
> *China is second largest importer of Weapon after India.*
> 
> And you skip my question. Why your super duper JF 17 is not deployed in Chinese air force?
> 
> Even today your government is interested in SU 35 and S 400.


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## Alfa-Fighter

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Man .... where did you get this inside news from


Ground reality tell more then Imaginations and fantasy.

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## HariPrasad

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Man .... where did you get this inside news from



Pl enlight me why your JF 17 induction has stuck to 2 squadrons for last few years. as per your plans, there should have been more than 120 JF 17 in your Air force.

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## HariPrasad

conworldus said:


> Your information is quite outdated. It appears that China was 9th in 2010, behind even Greece in arms importing, but 4th in arms exporting.
> 
> Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



China is second largest importer after India. Pl see the first paragraph of given link.

India is top arms buyer, China unseats UK as 5th largest seller - Times Of India

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## Arav_Rana

Please don't turn this thread in to jf-17 or any chinese thread. Let it be LCA thread only.  @Hari - see what and where you are talking. 
Mod's must create dedicated troll thread where trollers can have fun.

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## HariPrasad

Arav_Rana said:


> Please don't turn this thread in to jf-17 or any chinese thread. Let it be LCA thread only.
> @Hari - see what and where you are talking.
> Mod's must create dedicated troll thread where trollers can have fun.



Ok Now I won't reply to them. But they pop up on each and every Indian thread and pest their bulshit. Some time they literally Hijack the thread.

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## Beerbal

Any new news on LCA.. I don't see LCA flying these days...

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## DANGER-ZONE

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Ground reality tell more then Imaginations and fantasy.



LOL ... so Indian Kids here will tell me the the ground realities of Pakistan's Fighter Jet program. 



HariPrasad said:


> Pl enlight me why your JF 17 induction has stuck to 2 squadrons for last few years. as per your plans, there should have been more than 120 JF 17 in your Air force.



and how do you know that there ain't any more aircrafts in PAC .... care to back your TASHREEF with some source. Where did you read chinese stating JF-17 inferior to F-7/Mig-21 ? Where did you read that production of JF-17 has stopped ? and how come your childish mind thought that after hitting production in 2009 Pakistan will manufacture 120 aircraft till 2013, you could at least just once compared the production rate with LCA (A dozen birds in 20 years) ?
Time to grow up kiddo, there is no place for children here on this forum. 



HariPrasad said:


> Ok Now I won't reply to them. *But they pop up on each and every Indian thread and pest their bulshit. Some time they literally Hijack the thread*.



Look who is talking, an Indian at Pakistani forum want to teach a Pakistani member not to mess in Indian portion .... Kids will be kids 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW you both should join *Black Eagle 90* & *Nishan* apparently Pakistani guys, messing arround all over the forum with his childish senseless posts, you guys will make up good team


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## Guynextdoor2

HariPrasad said:


> Pl enlight me why your JF 17 induction has stuck to 2 squadrons for last few years. as per your plans, there should have been more than 120 JF 17 in your Air force.



They don't have avonics that France was supposed to provide. India had nothing to do with it at all

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## HariPrasad

DANGER-ZONE said:


> LOL ... so Indian Kids here will tell me the the ground realities of Pakistan's Fighter Jet program.
> 
> 
> 
> and how do you know that there ain't any more aircrafts in PAC .... care to back your TASHREEF with some source. Where did you read chinese stating JF-17 inferior to F-7/Mig-21 ? Where did you read that production of JF-17 has stopped ? and how come your childish mind thought that after hitting production in 2009 Pakistan will manufacture 120 aircraft till 2013, you could at least just once compared the production rate with LCA (A dozen birds in 20 years) ?
> Time to grow up kiddo, there is no place for children here on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Look who is talking, an Indian at Pakistani forum want to teach a Pakistani member not to mess in Indian portion .... Kids will be kids
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> BTW you both should join *Black Eagle 90* & *Nishan* apparently a Pakistani guy, messing arround all over the forum with his childish senseless posts, you guys will make up good team



If your ego is satisfied, I do not mind being a Kid. 

LCA is just 20 because they are not in production like JF 17.

JF-17 Thunders: Pakistan to get 50 Chinese jets in six months &#8211; The Express Tribune

50 JF 17 were to be produced in 6 months in 2011 itself and PAF had ordered 150 which was to be extended to 250 Jets.

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## DANGER-ZONE

HariPrasad said:


> If your ego is satisfied, I do not mind being a Kid.
> 
> LCA is just 20 because they are not in production like JF 17.
> 
> JF-17 Thunders: Pakistan to get 50 Chinese jets in six months &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> 50 JF 17 were to be produced in 6 months in 2011 itself and PAF had ordered 150 which was to be extended to 250 Jets.



That was a political statement / backing-up by China to give USA a message and to support Pakistan after OBL operation .... No production line either in China or in Pakistan or in any where in the world can produce 50 aircraft in just 6 month. 
Don't go NUTS go join the kids club and don't bother replying back i'm not in a mood to play with kids.


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## HariPrasad

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!

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## sudhir007

Flight update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2298 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Aug-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-368,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-93,LSP5-209,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-23)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2305 Test Flights Successfully. (03-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-369*,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,*LSP4-94,LSP5-210,LSP7-53*,NP1-4,*LSP8-25*)

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## he-man

sudhir007 said:


> Flight update
> 
> From
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2298 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Aug-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-368,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-93,LSP5-209,LSP7-51,NP1-4,LSP8-23)
> 
> to
> 
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2305 Test Flights Successfully. (03-Sep-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-369*,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,*LSP4-94,LSP5-210,LSP7-53*,NP1-4,*LSP8-25*)



when is the ioc-2 date??

i mean which year

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## PoKeMon

he-man said:


> when is the ioc-2 date??
> 
> i mean which year



late 2013.

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## PoKeMon

DANGER-ZONE said:


> That was a political statement / backing-up by China to give USA a message and to support Pakistan after OBL operation .... No production line either in China or in Pakistan or in any where in the world can produce 50 aircraft in just 6 month.
> Don't go NUTS go join the kids club and don't bother replying back i'm not in a mood to play with kids.



Whats the production rate of JF-17?

If production started in 2009, its almost 4 years now. And for an order in magnitude of 200+ isn't the production rate below par?

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## he-man

IND_PAK said:


> Whats the production rate of JF-17?
> 
> If production started in 2009, its almost 4 years now. And for an order in magnitude of 200+ isn't the production rate below par?



no one knows how many have been produced beyond a certain 40



IND_PAK said:


> late 2013.



that was the plan of HALAND ITS NOT VERY GOOD IN KEEPING PROMISES


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## PoKeMon

he-man said:


> no one knows how many have been produced beyond a certain 40



There is something which is preventing them to produce more in current configuration.




> that was the plan of HALAND ITS NOT VERY GOOD IN KEEPING PROMISES



HAL has missed its quota of promises. This time they will finally deliver.

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## he-man

IND_PAK said:


> There is something which is preventing them to produce more in current configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAL has missed its quota of promises. This time they will finally deliver.



I do hope that but real challenge is foc


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## PoKeMon

he-man said:


> I do hope that but real challenge is foc



FOC wont be that tough after 2 IOC. A lot more would have been covered in IOC2.

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## sudhir007

Flight update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2306 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-369,LSP1-74,LSP2-281,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-211,LSP7-53,NP1-4,LSP8-25)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2308 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-369,LSP1-74,*LSP2-282*,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,*LSP5-212*,LSP7-53,NP1-4,LSP8-25)

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## Sri

I Do not know whether this is posted or not... saw this in BR. pretty interesting...

The Tejas Arrives | TKS' Tales


My mind dwelt on the time of the later part of 1982. I had then settled down as the Air Officer Commanding (AOC) at Jamnagar, having moved there after a very exciting tenure at the Ministry of Defence as the project manager for the induction of Jaguar aircraft. We were living through a period of exciting times in the Air Force. The Jaguar had been inducted through a massive project of purchase and manufacture. Soon thereafter, the Government had also decided to purchase the Mirage 2000 which was really a modern aircraft. It seemed that at long last the Government was keen to equip the air force with the weapons it deserves.

One fine morning at about that time I received a call from my AOC in C Air Marshal JR Bhasin. The Air HQ desired that the DRDO would take on the task of designing and building a modern fighter aircraft that could be used by the air force. An outline of a proposal received from the DRDO was available with the Command HQ. The Air HQ had decided to seek field level opinion about the proposal and tabulate the wish list of the operators so that a consolidated response could be put out to the MOD and the DRDO. For this purpose a very broad based conference had been planned at the Air HQ where the operational commands and the VCAS and DCAS were to present their wish list in the form of a presentation. To prepare for the conference at Delhi, the AOC in C wanted all his field commanders and staff to apply their minds on the subject and then come down to the Command HQ at Jodhpur for a session of brain storming. He had sent a copy of the papers received from the Air HQ to me by post and I should get that by the next day. We had about four days to think about the task and to gather at Jodhpur.

I became rather exited. It is not often that one is invited to participate in shaping of the future. My base Jamnagar was one of the most active fighter stations of the Air Force. I knew that my unit commanders and their subordinate staff would be as excited about the project as I was. I called in my unit commanders and the Chief Operations Officer (COO) and informed them about the impending task. The anticipation for the detailed information to arrive was delectable.

The details were received through mail next morning. It was contained in a few pages of print. It described the intention to build a single engine tail-less delta plan-form aircraft powered by an engine designed by the GTRE. It was to have a multi-purpose radar designed and built within the country that was to be totally contemporary and to be highly capable in the air to air / air to ground / maritime roles. The aircraft was to be an unstable platform controlled by fly by wire technique. It was also to contain all functionalities of a small agile low-observable fighter that could be found anywhere in the world at that point of time. Its projected weight was to be seven tons empty. It was to be designed and developed within about ten years. This dream, the DRDO felt, was achievable. Personally I disagreed with that statement.

Group Captain KN (Pinki) Pillai was at that moment commanding the TACDE based on my station. Wing Commander Sunil Gulati was commanding 29 Squadron. Wing Commander Jeff DSouza was commanding 45 Squadron. Group Captain Ravi Kumar was my Chief operations Officer. We quickly got into a huddle to formulate a point of view on the missive we had received. The discussion soon heated up and we included other senior pilots and engineers from the units into the discussion. The source of the heat generated was the vagueness of the objective of the exercise.

Indeed, the write-up that we had received was rather confusing. The project seemed extremely ambitions. An airframe to be built with extensive use of composite material of which we had no previous experience, an engine that was still on paper, a radar set that was to be better than our imported best and yet be lighter in weight and perhaps a bit smaller in size, an electronic control system for an unstable platform (the struggle with the control laws for the Gnat being still vividly in our memory), a completely unconventional digital man/machine interface while we had no experience at all of the new fangled concept of a glass cockpit, and all this within a decade! It sounded implausible. At the same time, the paper sent down to us clearly gave us the impression that this super duper futuristic aircraft was what we were required to commit for in ten years time. Our Hunters, Gnats, Maruts, Mig21s would all start winding down in the nineties. If we did not start planning for these replacements realistically from now (the early eighties), we shall have undermined the ability of the air force to perform its task.

The vigor of our discussion soon pushed us into smoke and sparks rather than a beam of focused light and we had to draw back and ask ourselves whether we knew what we were talking about. What in our collective wisdom should be the focus of our comment? At last we summarized our views as follows:

We felt that the proposed aircraft was over-ambitious. We felt that we were not likely to succeed in building the aircraft within a decade. We hastened to add that we had no quarrels with the concept of dreaming big; we only needed to remain practical and credible in our endeavor.
We felt that development of critical technologies in radar and engine should be pursued with vigor but that effort must not be tied to an aircraft project clearly identified for time-bound induction into the air-force as the risk of delay or failure of the project would be too high

We reminded ourselves that in ten years time our force strength would decline. We felt that our energies would be better spent in upgrading our present strength of aircraft with better technologies in sensors and weapons. We felt that in the MiG 21 BIS we had the most optimized 7 ton fighter aircraft available in the whole world. It was however already more that 20 years old. It was therefore attractive as a target platform for substantial technological up-gradation. If we could modernize its avionics, give it a nav-attack system, add electronic self-defence capabilities, add more modern communications and add newer guided weapons and hopefully put in a modern by-pass engine into the airframe then we would have a formidable aircraft on our hands. We felt that we would be capable of handling such a development.

Having cleared our own minds, we got down to the task of preparing a presentation to convince the rest of the Air Force.

It is easy to have a gut-feeling. It is also easy to convince yourself that your feeling is based on logic and reason. Perhaps it is even easy to find support for the ideas you are feeling from amongst your friends and your immediate colleagues. It is quite a different thing how ever to present your idea in front of a large audience comprising your bosses and perhaps a segment of critical friends. It was therefore a hard grind to prepare the presentation that was to be given to the AOC in C at Jodhpur.

We started the presentation with a bald and bold set of statements laying out the three summary views we had arrived at. We were sure that such a start would shake up the audience. To substantiate the first point we put the outline of the proposed LCA as received under a microscope, put every goal stated to a comparative study with the standards achieved by the MiG21 BIS, the Mirage 2000 and a general study of achievements within public knowledge anywhere in the world. We talked of structural weight and structural volume, we talked of clean aircraft design and of drag and lift, and we talked of thrust weigh ratios and of range and endurance. We talked of Specific Fuel Consumption and fuel carrying capacities within the airframe. Bit by bit we tried to prove that to create a structure that was somewhat lighter than the MiG21 and then extract aerodynamic performance from it that almost equaled the Mirage 2000 (which was about two tons heavier) would need us to technologically improve our performance in every single element of design and construction of the airframe and engine by at least fifteen to twenty percent from our currently known capabilities or aspirations. (We were yet to build a single operational jet engine). We felt that a time frame of ten years for this scale of achievements was implausible.

We now took up the case of proposed sensors. The proposal put out by the DRDO did not include a laser rangefinder for air to ground role. The assumption therefore was that the onboard radar would have to provide primary range data for air to ground role as well as air to air role. The problem as we saw it was we had never designed any airborne radar of any sort. The radar on the MiG 21 was rudimentary. None of the aircraft of the older generation like the Hunter/Gnat/Mystere/Marut had any airborne radar. The radar fitted in the maritime Jaguars were yet to enter service. The radar fitted to the Mirage 2000 had come without any transfer of technology. It was not clear whether we were capable or creating a duplicate that would be even better in performance. The proposed LCA was smaller that the Mirage 2000. Even if we had access to Mirage 2000 radar, would it fit into the smaller volume of the LCA? There was no indication that this had been considered. Therefore, we were totally dependent on the success of the proposed MMR. If that failed or was subjected to any delay the whole LCA project would be endangered.

We also dwelt on the Kaveri as the proposed engine for the LCA. The engine was far from a reality. Even if the first few prototypes of the LCA flew on some other engine, to commit to a production run of an aircraft yet to be built based on a maiden venture on an engine yet to be designed needed a leap of faith we were unable to make.
*
Thus I made our first point: If the DRDO is confident of achieving everything they have aimed at, God-Speed to them. We are however skeptical about their time frame of one decade. Therefore, we recommend that the effort of the DRDO be taken up as a national project not related to Air Force funds and plans. If the DRDO succeeds in its venture and a useable aircraft is produced, the Air Force can always induct that product as soon as it is available.*

We then moved over to the second point of our presentation. A modern offensive air weapon system like a fighter aircraft contains many technologically advanced components that in 1982 were not produced in the country. Apart from an aero engine and an air interception radar, many other things like secure communication, Electronic Countermeasures and counter-countermeasures, pilots man/machine interface, survival equipment for the aircrew, oxygen systems, intelligent weapons and advanced sensors and so on. If we ever wanted to be capable of independent and effective military air and space operations, it would be necessary for us to master these technologies. We therefore felt that any research and development under taken by DRDO in these fields should be vigorously supported by the Air Force. Successes in these fields would enhance our abilities across the board. There was therefore no need to tie any of these R&D to any specific project. R&D on all component development should proceed vigorously.

The third point of our presentation was centered on our need to get some useable and effective aircraft into the air force within a decade. We mentioned that the Gnat was a spent force, the Hunters were becoming difficult to maintain, the SU-7 and the Type 77s would soon finish their lives. We needed credible replacements and we saw no inductions on the horizon. We therefore felt that a midlife upgrade for the MiG21BIS Type 75 was urgently needed. We felt that an upgrade should concentrate on new electronics and weapons. We also felt that if a less thirsty engine could be found for induction that would increase its radius of action it would be very good. We felt confident that the talent available in India was capable of delivering such an upgrade. We suggested that irrespective of what the DRDO plans about a project called LCA, the MiG21BIS upgrade program must be taken up without delay.

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## Dillinger

@S-DUCT what was the loading capacity of the hardpoints on the LCA again? 

I believe that the 2nd hardpoint on each wing can carry somewhere between 600-800Kg? 

Saw a query posted, would indeed be interesting to see whether multiple rack ejectors for Astra or another BVR missile can be used on the LCA? 

Might have drag related complications though. 

Akin to this-

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> @S-DUCT what was the loading capacity of the hardpoints on the LCA again?
> 
> I believe that the 2nd hardpoint on each wing can carry somewhere between 600-800Kg?
> 
> Saw a query posted, would indeed be interesting to see whether multiple rack ejectors for Astra or another BVR missile can be used on the LCA?
> 
> Might have drag related complications though.
> 
> Akin to this-



is it hornet?


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## Beerbal

he-man said:


> is it hornet?





Yes it is hornet (not Super hornet). This uses similar engine what LCA use. The Super Hornet uses the engine which LCA MK-II will carry...

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## he-man

Beerbal said:


> Yes it is hornet (not Super hornet). This uses similar engine what LCA use. The Super Hornet uses the engine which LCA MK-II will carry...



yup Ge-414

but it has two


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## Beerbal

he-man said:


> yup Ge-414
> 
> but it has two



F18 SH : Weight 14550 Kg
LCA : Weight 6500Kg


One engine is enough...

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## he-man

Beerbal said:


> F18 SH : Weight 14550 Kg
> LCA : Weight 6500Kg
> 
> 
> One engine is enough...



But it is a delta canard meaning more drag


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## Beerbal

he-man said:


> But it is a delta canard meaning more drag





Defense development is evolutionary. In first attempt perfection can not be achieved. I am not saying LCA is perfect, But if given chance LCA MK-II, III or IV will match world class fighters...


IAF and defense Dalals are not agree with me. Hope You agree with me.. 


Delta wing has few drawbacks, but it has few advantage too.. One advantage is "Delta design is statically unstable" Unstable design is important for fighter aircrafts...

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## he-man

Beerbal said:


> Defense development is evolutionary. In first attempt perfection can not be achieved. I am not saying LCA is perfect, But if given chance LCA MK-II, III or IV will match world class fighters...
> 
> 
> IAF and defense Dalals are not agree with me. Hope You agree with me..
> 
> 
> Delta wing has few drawbacks, but it has few advantage too.. One advantage is "Delta design is statically unstable" Unstable design is important for fighter aircrafts...



mate if it was me..............i would have given more importance to it than rafale deal

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## S-DUCT

Dillinger said:


> @S-DUCT what was the loading capacity of the hardpoints on the LCA again?
> 
> I believe that the 2nd hardpoint on each wing can carry somewhere between 600-800Kg?
> 
> Saw a query posted, would indeed be interesting to see whether multiple rack ejectors for Astra or another BVR missile can be used on the LCA?
> 
> Might have drag related complications though.
> 
> Akin to this-


Yes i think you're right about wing loading of 2nd hardpoint.LCA is draggy in its current stats(As per some TT),so it might well increase drag issue.
If the drag issue is solved then we might see multi-ejector racks in MK1/2 it'll A great a way to increase hardpoints but a bad way to increase drag and RCS.

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## Dillinger

S-DUCT said:


> Yes i think you're right about wing loading of 2nd hardpoint.LCA is draggy in its current stats(As per some TT),so it might well increase drag issue.
> If the drag issue is solved then we might see multi-ejector racks in MK1/2 it'll A great a way to increase hardpoints but a bad way to increase drag and RCS.



RCS is not an issue for an aircraft which as it is not optimized for a LO/VLO role. Let us not forget that all 4th gen platforms carry significant quantities of stores and armament. The increase in specular returns will be inconsequential specially since the LCA is not meant for deep penetration strikes and infiltration of high concentration ADGE environment, it is more suited for base combat patrols, defense of airspace and shallow penetration multi-role ops in conjunction with more capable platforms providing cover and escort. 

As such only the drag complications seem to be a limiting factor. The dearth of specific information on the the Mk.2 beyond engine and sensor changes along with the non-availability of combat radius figures for different loadouts and mission profiles (hi-lo-lo, hi-hi-hi) (we need information on both these parameters in a combined format to draw any conclusions) makes any such speculation very difficult. Lets see what happens but most definitely these are the kind of solution we need to look at since significant drag penalties are imposed even by larger PGM/LGBs like Sudharshan.

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## S-DUCT

@Dillinger:Bro I need to goto gym .Gonna reply/chat with you tonight.Bye.

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## Dillinger

S-DUCT said:


> @Dillinger:Bro I need to goto gym .Gonna reply/chat with you tonight.Bye.



Buffed up engineer, hum out of shape munshiyon ka kya hoga?

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## S-DUCT

Dillinger said:


> Buffed up engineer, hum out of shape munshiyon ka kya hoga?


Kya hoga.?
Jyada se jyada sugar,heart problems hoga.

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## SRP

S-DUCT said:


> Kya hoga.?
> Jyada se jyada sugar,heart problems hoga.



Aur pet bahar nikal ayega

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## Dillinger

S-DUCT said:


> Kya hoga.?
> Jyada se jyada sugar,heart problems hoga.



True, I am unfortunately exceedingly thin- not sticks but 6% bodyfat. Unfortunately I cannot seem to gain mass no matter how hard I try.  One can always view mine visage on my profile here.

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> True, I am unfortunately exceedingly thin- not sticks but 6% bodyfat. Unfortunately I cannot seem to gain mass no matter how hard I try.  One can always view mine visage on my profile here.



bhai main yaha cholestrol and triglycerides se joojh raha hoon and u cannot gain mass!!

lets exchange bodies



S-DUCT said:


> Kya hoga.?
> Jyada se jyada sugar,heart problems hoga.



beta aache aache hero treadmill pe ludak chuke hain.......................beware

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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> bhai main yaha cholestrol and triglycerides se joojh raha hoon and u cannot gain mass!!
> 
> lets exchange bodies



Umm..no! I am endowed with a real looker- I'll be keeping it. 

Hopefully your travails will be mitigated.

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## he-man

desert warrior said:


> Aur pet bahar nikal ayega



i have started walking 8 km every day and stopped eating all the crap when i saw my reports



Dillinger said:


> Umm..no! I am endowed with a real looker- I'll be keeping it.
> 
> Hopefully your travails will be mitigated.



this body swap arrangement will not be forever,,,,i advice u to think well


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> i have started walking 8 km every day and stopped eating all the crap when i saw my reports
> 
> 
> 
> this body swap arrangement will not be forever,,,,i advice u to think well



There is nothing to consider here. I would be doing a great disservice to my paramour @Armstrong by doing so.  @Hyperion tell him of the great love of my life.

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> There is nothing to consider here. I would be doing a great disservice to my paramour @Armstrong by doing so.  @Hyperion tell him of the great love of my life.



Hmmm.............i have to convince a new bakra it seems

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## Dillinger

@S-DUCT @sandy_3126 What's up with the targeting pod pylon? Has it simply not gone through the process of coatings and painting or have there been some alterations made?

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## MilSpec

@Dillinger Not sure, the tape might be covering strain gages, or could be for some other purpose

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## Guynextdoor2

Dillinger said:


> True, I am unfortunately exceedingly thin- not sticks but 6% bodyfat. Unfortunately I cannot seem to gain mass no matter how hard I try.  One can always view mine visage on my profile here.



Vodka with red bull and beer alternated. Beer for a full month and then the above. Allow generously for important side dishes like chicken biryani and mutton fry

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## kurup

Dillinger said:


> True, I am unfortunately exceedingly thin- not sticks but 6% bodyfat. Unfortunately I cannot seem to gain mass no matter how hard I try.  One can always view mine visage on my profile here.



Which one in that picture is you ??? .....

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## Dillinger

kurup said:


> Which one in that picture is you ??? .....



White tee, extreme right.

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## kurup

Dillinger said:


> White tee, extreme right.



Then you are not that exceedingly thin by any means .....

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## Dillinger

kurup said:


> Then you are not that exceedingly thin by any means .....



Bhai ek ounce bhi mass nahi hai, tee bohot badi hai courtesy the person who bought it for me. 

Koshish kiye jaa raha hoon, warna puri zindagi bache jaisa dikhunga. 

Hope you got the right fellow though, I am the guy with the cig.

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## kurup

Dillinger said:


> Bhai ek ounce bhi mass nahi hai, tee bohot badi hai courtesy the person who bought it for me.
> 
> Koshish kiye jaa raha hoon, warna puri zindagi bache jaisa dikhunga.
> 
> Hope you got the right fellow though, I am the guy with the cig.



Ya man , I got it right . I am also very thin . What is your weight ??

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## Dillinger

kurup said:


> Ya man , I got it right . I am also very thin . What is your weight ??



64/5.8

Ab chaddo yaar, LCA thread hai.  Naswarville is more appropriate for this stuff.

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## kurup

Dillinger said:


> 64/5.8
> 
> Ab chaddo yaar, LCA thread hai.  Naswarville is more appropriate for this stuff.



OK buddy , lets leave it .......  BTW , I am 60/5'9" ......

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> Bhai ek ounce bhi mass nahi hai, tee bohot badi hai courtesy the person who bought it for me.
> 
> Koshish kiye jaa raha hoon, warna puri zindagi bache jaisa dikhunga.
> 
> Hope you got the right fellow though, I am the guy with the cig.



avail my body swap offer and u will look like an uncle!!



kurup said:


> OK buddy , lets leave it .......  BTW , I am 60/5'9" ......



78............5'7"

howz that,,,lol

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## Bullet500

bhai logo jum ke beer peo or murge phado...2 years back I was 64 kg now im 85 I am 6'2" btw. Plus start running otherwise u gona look like a pregnant lady with tiny boobs

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## kbd-raaf

he-man said:


> avail my body swap offer and u will look like an uncle!!
> 
> 
> 
> 78............5'7"
> 
> howz that,,,lol



That's not bad at all. Cut down on dat der desi diet and you'll be right.
@Dillinger; you don't look exceedingly skinny at all, eat 5 meals a day, lift heavy and you'll be right.

Why the self-hate people?

I'm 81kg and 5'10'' in my profile picture. Gained a bit since then, been eating eggs like no tomorrow.
@Topic

Does anybody know where I can find an accurate 3D drawing of the LCA Tejas. Clean config and with different configs too if possible.

I'm testing out some CFD software as a side project and what better testing model is there to use than the Tejas.

edit: Well there are better models, but just for shits and giggles.

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## ziaulislam

he-man said:


> no one knows how many have been produced beyond a certain 40
> 
> 
> 
> that was the plan of HALAND ITS NOT VERY GOOD IN KEEPING PROMISES


i dont know why JF-17 comes here in the thread of LCA but if you are updated even photos are been released of serial 46 in testing while official confirmation of completion of block 1(or mark1) and final testing of mark 2 is also confirmed with aerial testing going in july..
production rate is ok that is around 16/year
the delay is obviously due to block 2 production design finalization, it isnt a delay anyway. the time table was seen in public a year ago and we are right on it with expectation of block 3 at 2016 beginning. all of this info is present in jf-17 info thread. i think we should act as lazy guys

any idea when is LCA mark 2 going to get its FOC?


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## he-man

ziaulislam said:


> i dont know why JF-17 comes here in the thread of LCA but if you are updated even photos are been released of serial 46 in testing while official confirmation of completion of block 1(or mark1) and final testing of mark 2 is also confirmed with aerial testing going in july..
> production rate is ok that is around 16/year
> the delay is obviously due to block 2 production design finalization, it isnt a delay anyway. the time table was seen in public a year ago and we are right on it with expectation of block 3 at 2016 beginning. all of this info is present in jf-17 info thread. i think we should act as lazy guys
> 
> any idea when is LCA mark 2 going to get its FOC?



pls post a picture if u are so sure??
and production started in 2009??
@16 per year it should have been 80

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## ziaulislam

he-man said:


> pls post a picture if u are so sure??
> and production started in 2009??
> @16 per year it should have been 80



i would not de rail this thread go to JFT thread and post these comments you will get your answer
time line: serial production started on 30th jan 2009
that puts the production at approx 12 per year on average considering it slowed last year for obvious reason of work on 2 block production. 
picture is already posted in JF-17 thread in video made they show serial 146 in final moments then there is interview in jane saying that last few are in "final" stages of testing.


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## he-man

ziaulislam said:


> i would not de rail this thread go to JFT thread and post these comments you will get your answer
> time line: serial production started on 30th jan 2009
> that puts the production at approx 12 per year on average considering it slowed last year for obvious reason of work on 2 block production.
> picture is already posted in JF-17 thread in video made they show serial 146 in final moments then there is interview in jane saying that last few are in "final" stages of testing.



but PAC should show these things in web site!!
whats there to hide man?
as for derailing,we are not trolling man,its a legitimate discussion

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## ziaulislam

he-man said:


> but PAC should show these things in web site!!
> whats there to hide man?
> as for derailing,we are not trolling man,its a legitimate discussion



its not about hiding, its about attitude.
In Pakistan military doesnt parade about any deals nor the media glorify them. even if you find news its just in end of a small corner of the paper. You dont see any updates on their websites either..
PAC did release a few video on VEMO that shows for the first time the details of JFT production.
PAF head interview on janes published in MAY quotes that static ground testing for block2 has been completed and aerial testing would happen this summer. so we may see block 2 production next year or late this year. squardons require extensive testing and more importantly pilots and ground crew. PAF was in hurry for the first two squardons due to retirement of Q-5(mig 19) but isnt in so much hurry now. The interview also quote that JFT production is with pace of retirements of each squardon old aircrafts. so production did slowed from ideal rate but in aircraft production this is a routine. even a much more extensive,capable and experienced HAL showed delays in su 30MKI assembling.

on last note what is the confirm order of LCA 1. we are getting numbers from 40 to 200?


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## he-man

ziaulislam said:


> its not about hiding, its about attitude.
> In Pakistan military doesnt parade about any deals nor the media glorify them. even if you find news its just in end of a small corner of the paper. You dont see any updates on their websites either..
> PAC did release a few video on VEMO that shows for the first time the details of JFT production.
> PAF head interview on janes published in MAY quotes that static ground testing for block2 has been completed and aerial testing would happen this summer. so we may see block 2 production next year or late this year. squardons require extensive testing and more importantly pilots and ground crew. PAF was in hurry for the first two squardons due to retirement of Q-5(mig 19) but isnt in so much hurry now. The interview also quote that JFT production is with pace of retirements of each squardon old aircrafts. so production did slowed from ideal rate but in aircraft production this is a routine. even a much more extensive,capable and experienced HAL showed delays in su 30MKI assembling.
> 
> on last note what is the confirm order of LCA 1. we are getting numbers from 40 to 200?



mk1 will be 40 only
will be followed by mk2 whose 1st prototype will be out in 2014


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## sudhir007

Flight update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2308 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-369,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-212,LSP7-53,NP1-4,LSP8-25)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2309 Test Flights Successfully. (05-Sep-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-369,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,*LSP5-213*,LSP7-53,NP1-4,LSP8-25)

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2318 Test Flights Successfully. (13-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-370,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-217,LSP7-56,NP1-4,LSP8-26)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2322 Test Flights Successfully. (18-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-371*,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,*LSP5-218,LSP7-57*,NP1-4,*LSP8-27*)

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## HariPrasad

IOC trials were to be over by Sept 2013. What happened? Very few days left.


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## Echo_419

HariPrasad said:


> IOC trials were to be over by Sept 2013. What happened? Very few days left.



Ab NOV mein milege muje lag raha hai


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2322 Test Flights Successfully. (18-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-218,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2325 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,*LSP2-283*,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,*LSP5-220*,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2325 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-283,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)
to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2327 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,*LSP2-285*,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)


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## sasi

Hope atleast good news, beforce Air Force Day oct 8.


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## Dash

I just saw LCA doing taking off. The thing is for the first time I felt the low rate of climb of LCA. Anyway...


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## he-man

Man ioc-2 was gonna be granted in september!!!

whats the status??


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## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> Man ioc-2 was gonna be granted in september!!!
> 
> whats the status??


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## rockstarIN

3 more days to go..!!

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## That Guy

rockstarIN said:


> 3 more days to go..!!



Sorry for asking, but for what?


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> 3 more days to go..!!



comeon man................its a serious issue here



That Guy said:


> Sorry for asking, but for what?



for sept to end and tejas to be granted ioc-2..........i think


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## That Guy

he-man said:


> comeon man................its a serious issue here
> 
> 
> 
> for sept to end and tejas to be granted ioc-2..........i think



Ah, right, that....


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## BlueDot_in_Space

The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas successfully completed its maiden engine relight test on Friday -- a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). Military sources confirmed to Express that the Limited Series Production (LSP-7) aircraft from the Tejas flight-line, piloted by Gp Capt R R Tyagi, underwent the engine relight test at 1 pm. The LSP-7 was chased by a Hawk aircraft.

*&#8220;It is a great milestone for a single-engine fighter aircraft. The relight test is the second most critical event for a fighter jet programme, after its maiden flight. The pilot took the flight to a height of 30,000 ft before the relight test, which was performed over the skies of Kolar region,&#8221; a source said.

During Friday&#8217;s test, the pilot is said to have brought the throttle down to zero for a few seconds, so that the aircraft loses power. The pilot pulled the throttle again, confirming the relight process. Engine relight is done to check the aircraft&#8217;s performance in an emergency situation.*







A senior airworthiness official said the project is now slowly, but steadily completing the IOC-2 parameters. &#8220;So far Tejas has logged over 2,330 flights clocking around 1,350 hours. It is high time we finish IOC-2 and get on with the FOC (Final Operational Clearance) formalities,&#8221; the official said.

Maiden engine relight test of Tejas held - The New Indian Express

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## HariPrasad

I do not know why but the wings of Tejas appears to me a bit larger than required. I do not know why I feel that this unnecessary large wing is impediment in achieving design speed of 1.8 mach and STR. Is it necessary perhaps because of the short length of tejas ro give it a required surface? Can the wings be shorten in Mk 2? 

Can MK2 achieve Mach 2 speed?

Can we shorten the wings and add canard?

Can any knowledgeable member share some light pl? Sancho?


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## sankranti

HariPrasad said:


> I do not know why but the wings of Tejas appears to me a bit larger than required. I do not know why I feel that this unnecessary large wing is impediment in achieving design speed of 1.8 mach and STR. Is it necessary perhaps because of the short length of tejas ro give it a required surface? Can the wings be shorten in Mk 2?
> 
> Can MK2 achieve Mach 2 speed?
> 
> Can we shorten the wings and add canard?
> 
> Can any knowledgeable member share some light pl? Sancho?



In view of your concerns I have asked the DRDO to shorten the wings of the Tejas. 

I have also instructed them to add canards to the LCA for your pleasure. Hope this will be to your satisfaction.

Feel free to suggest any more design changes to the LCA. Democracy is all about public participation and DRDO welcomes suggestions from the public to improve its designs.

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## GURU DUTT

sankranti said:


> In view of your concerns I have asked the DRDO to shorten the wings of the Tejas.
> 
> I have also instructed them to add canards to the LCA for your pleasure. Hope this will be to your satisfaction.
> 
> Feel free to suggest any more design changes to the LCA. Democracy is all about public participation and DRDO welcomes suggestions from the public to improve its designs.








aap abhi tak kahan the prabu

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## sankranti

GURU DUTT said:


> aap abhi tak kahan the prabu



Kal yug me ek se jyada avataar leni padthi hai.

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## Sri

Maiden engine relight test of Tejas held - The New Indian Express
By Anantha Krishnan M - BANGALORE Published: 28th September 2013 08:25 AM Last Updated: 28th September 2013 08:25 AM
The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas successfully completed its maiden engine relight test on Friday -- a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). Military sources confirmed to Express that the Limited Series Production (LSP-7) aircraft from the Tejas flight-line, piloted by Gp Capt R R Tyagi, underwent the engine relight test at 1 pm. The LSP-7 was chased by a Hawk aircraft.

It is a great milestone for a single-engine fighter aircraft. The relight test is the second most critical event for a fighter jet programme, after its maiden flight. The pilot took the flight to a height of 30,000 ft before the relight test, which was performed over the skies of Kolar region, a source said.

During Fridays test, the pilot is said to have brought the throttle down to zero for a few seconds, so that the aircraft loses power. The pilot pulled the throttle again, confirming the relight process. Engine relight is done to check the aircrafts performance in an emergency situation.

A senior airworthiness official said the project is now slowly, but steadily completing the IOC-2 parameters. So far Tejas has logged over 2,330 flights clocking around 1,350 hours. It is high time we finish IOC-2 and get on with the FOC (Final Operational Clearance) formalities, the official said.

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## HariPrasad

sankranti said:


> In view of your concerns I have asked the DRDO to shorten the wings of the Tejas.
> 
> I have also instructed them to add canards to the LCA for your pleasure. Hope this will be to your satisfaction.
> 
> Feel free to suggest any more design changes to the LCA. Democracy is all about public participation and DRDO welcomes suggestions from the public to improve its designs.



HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!

I was sure that I will find some friend like you on PDF who will help me convey my concern to DRDO.

I am studying the design. I will come out with more suggestion for Improvement shortly.



sankranti said:


> In view of your concerns I have asked the DRDO to shorten the wings of the Tejas.
> 
> I have also instructed them to add canards to the LCA for your pleasure. Hope this will be to your satisfaction.
> 
> Feel free to suggest any more design changes to the LCA. Democracy is all about public participation and DRDO welcomes suggestions from the public to improve its designs.



HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!

I was sure that I will find some friend like you on PDF who will help me convey my concern to DRDO.

I am studying the design. I will come out with more suggestion for Improvement shortly.


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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2327 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-285,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2332 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,*LSP2-286*,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,*LSP7-60*,NP1-4,*LSP8-28*)


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## sasi

Readying for IOC-2!
~
The winner will get a copy ofMy Journey: Transforming Dreams into Actions,written by Dr A P J Abdul Kalam. In addition, the winner will also get some goodies, courtesy IAF Publicity Cell! In short, as they say, the winner takes it all!
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence

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## Agent_47



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## kurup




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## vsdave2302

kurup said:


>



Hi Guys I am back.

Awesome picture. Tejas seems to be flying at a very low level. May be for some IOC 2 test.

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## sudhir007

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2334 Test Flights Successfully. (01-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-372,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-61,NP1-4,LSP8-28)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2344 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-374*,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-159*,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,*LSP7-64*,NP1-4,*LSP8-31*)

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## Sri

LCA Tejas - Specifications: Powerplant

The Engines Performance mentioned here is wrong? as far as I know its 19000 lb.

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## Gessler

All the components are listed.


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## sudhir007

LCA-Tejas has completed 2344 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-374,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-159,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-64,NP1-4,LSP8-31)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2348 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-375*,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-161*,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,*LSP7-65*,NP1-4,LSP8-31)


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## shree835

*Finally, Tejas gets electronic warfare systems*

After eight years of research and postponement, Indias first indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas, positioned at HAL Bangalore, has finally been fitted with electronic warfare (EW) systems.

Now, new test flights will happen with electronic warfare anytime during November or beginning of December. The 2,348 test flights of the LCA so far have not had electronic warfare. The new test flights will bring in new data and information for further development of the aircraft and the electronic systems.

Sources in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told Deccan Herald that the LCA Prototype Vehicle-1 (PV-1) has now been fitted with a radar-warning receiver, a radar-warning jammer, laser warner, missile-approach warner, emitter, and a flare dispenser. The systems are now undergoing ground trials with aeronautical engineers simulating multiple threats to the aircraft and then examining its response.



The results of the ground trials will help fine-tune the electronic systems for the actual test flights. The ground trials will take about a fortnight or a month. So, test flights will be held in mid-November or December.

Engineers and scientists working on the project say the radar receivers and jammers will track enemy signals from air and ground, while the emitter will watch out for missile launches from ground. Systems to track missiles from air and enemy aircraft will also be part of the LCA. The entire system has been developed by both Indian and Israeli engineers and scientists.

The fitment of the electronic systems has an interesting history. For almost eight years, a section of the aeronautical community has been resisting its fitment, anxious that the add-ons may cause a first crash, which has never happened so far in the LCAs test-flight history. They have been very keen on securing the operational clearance, initial as well as final from the Indian Air Force, even if the LCA did not have the electronic system.

Their reasoning was that once the IAF certified it as operationally worthy, they would have a successful product to showcase to the world. Also, the LCA has had a perfect record of test flights and no one wished to risk an add-on on the LCA that had not been tried. The idea was to defend the zero crash record.

This was made known sometimes explicitly to engineers and scientists working on the electronic systems, who, however, had been pressing for very long that the systems ought to be fitted and trials conducted to be able to fine-tune them. This difference of perception on the LCA persisted for long, and one consequence was, no vehicle or version of the LCA was identified for many years to fit the equipment. This caused delay of over five years in launching the electronic systems on the LCA and to questioning of the very purpose and objective of building the systems.

After haggling for over eight years, it has been finally decided to instal the electronic systems on the LCA prototype Version-1. But theres a catch here. The PV-1 has not flown for very long and has been parked in the hangar with later versions of the LCA undertaking the test flights. The PV-1, which began flights in around 2001-02, has completed 242 test flights after which it has been grounded. Now, there is a bit of anxiety about how an aircraft that has not done flights for long will perform with the new electronic warfare systems.

The confidence, however, is that the aircraft may perform well because its health has been under check almost daily and every department concerned will certify that all parts of the aircraft are flight-worthy. Without this certification, the PV-1 will not be allowed to fly. But once it passes the certification, the LCA PV-1 will become the first vehicle to fly with electronic warfare systems.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/363477/finally-tejas-gets-electronic-warfare.html

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## rockstarIN

So wait for pv1 to fly.... its excellent ......I

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## confound thinker

More potent LCA with EW system...Excellent.


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## Echo_419

confound thinker said:


> More potent LCA with EW system...Excellent.



Is the EW system In house or Foreign


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## RPK

Echo_419 said:


> Is the EW system In house or Foreign



I think mostly Inhouse

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## confound thinker

Echo_419 said:


> Is the EW system In house or Foreign


LCA was supposed to have the indigenous Mayavi EWS though I'm not fully sure if this has changed.....Anyway we are fully capable of producing an indigenous EWs and I think our Mig-27 have an indigenous EWS
The features of Mayavi are as follows:
FEATURES:
1. It will have Radar Warning Receiver to detect Radio waves. This will notify the pilot when he is being engaged by either radar lock or missile attack.
2. It will have Self Protection Jammer for radar deception. This will jam ground based radars, on-board radars and incoming missile by interfering with its radio frequency.
3. It will have Laser Warning System to detect laser emission of laser guided weapons.
4. It will have Missile Approach Warning System which will automatically detect incoming missiles of all types and warn the pilot.
5. It will have a standard chuff/ flare deployment system which is common on most fighter today.

Advantages are many fold
Firstly the DAS1 ( Defensive aid suite one) on LCA and current MKi is Federated and not an integrated one .
- First thing that MAYAWI brings is Integrated DAS
- CMDS will be tightly coupled with TMS core computer
- Mayawi will have its own SPJ in contrast to discrete EL/8222 jammer, EL82222 which is not part of DAS of LCA or MKI
- Currently both LCA and MKI lack ELS , MKI currently carries SIVA pod for Emitter location and subsequently guidance to KH31-P missile . Not sure what such system is on-board LCA to give SEAD/DEAD capability
- Mayawi in addition will add
LWS
MAWS
TAD

This is only little bit of information available about Mayawi , specs and operating freq, range all are classified

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## skysthelimit

confound thinker said:


> LCA was supposed to have the indigenous Mayavi EWS though I'm not fully sure if this has changed.....Anyway we are fully capable of producing an indigenous EWs and I think our Mig-27 have an indigenous EWS
> The features of Mayavi are as follows:
> FEATURES:
> *1. It will have Radar Warning Receiver to detect Radio waves. This will notify the pilot when he is being engaged by either radar lock or missile attack.
> 2. It will have Self Protection Jammer for radar deception. This will jam ground based radars, on-board radars and incoming missile by interfering with its radio frequency.
> 3. It will have Laser Warning System to detect laser emission of laser guided weapons.
> 4. It will have Missile Approach Warning System which will automatically detect incoming missiles of all types and warn the pilot.
> 5. It will have a standard chuff/ flare deployment system which is common on most fighter today.
> *
> Advantages are many fold
> Firstly the DAS1 ( Defensive aid suite one) on LCA and current MKi is Federated and not an integrated one .
> - First thing that MAYAWI brings is Integrated DAS
> - CMDS will be tightly coupled with TMS core computer
> - Mayawi will have its own SPJ in contrast to discrete EL/8222 jammer, EL82222 which is not part of DAS of LCA or MKI
> - Currently both LCA and MKI lack ELS , MKI currently carries SIVA pod for Emitter location and subsequently guidance to KH31-P missile . Not sure what such system is on-board LCA to give SEAD/DEAD capability
> - Mayawi in addition will add
> LWS
> MAWS
> TAD
> 
> This is only little bit of information available about Mayawi , specs and operating freq, range all are classified



All the stuff that Mayavi provides seem to be basic, must-have requriements for any fighter (chaff dispenser, RWR, etc). If this is the first time LCA is getting an EWS, what did the earlier versions carry? Were they equipped with a different EWS, or none at all?


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## confound thinker

skysthelimit said:


> All the stuff that Mayavi provides seem to be basic, must-have requriements for any fighter (chaff dispenser, RWR, etc). If this is the first time LCA is getting an EWS, what did the earlier versions carry? Were they equipped with a different EWS, or none at all?


Possibly nothing or may be it is possible that it had some individual component of this EW suite(like flairs and chaff dispensers) but not as a fully integrated system.More knowledgeable member can throw some light in this regard


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## sancho

skysthelimit said:


> Were they equipped with a different EWS, or none at all?



No complete system at least, since LCA is still only in prototype stage. Testing the fighter itself and with every new step more systems is the aim, the problem is only, that we wanted too much own developed systems, which delayed things too long. That's why radar or EWS will be integrated now only, while the of the shelf HMS, or LDP were integrated years ago, which normally goes the other way around in every normal fighter development.


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## Ajatashatru

WebMaster said:


> Actually, without Russian assitance. LCA will never get to fight in the air. Right now it has no hope.  While JF-17 numbers have increased from 150 to 200-250. Thats what you call a successful aircraft.



Without Chinese assistance, Pakistanis could not even imagine how to design an airpane. The condition of Pakistan's aerospace industry can be understood by the fact that they need Chinese rockets to launch basic satellites.

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## Storm Force

Great news drdo and Hal may pull this off yet. Cant wait to see tejas in full sqaudron service along side mirages and mki


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## IND151

Naval LCA set for carrier compatibility tests | idrw.org

http://idrw.org/?p=28195

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## DANGER-ZONE

Ajatashatru said:


> Without Chinese assistance, Pakistanis could not even imagine how to design an airpane. The condition of Pakistan's aerospace industry can be understood by the fact that they need Chinese rockets to launch basic satellites.



Replying to a post nearly 6 years old.
Way ta go Champ

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## Manindra

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Replying to a post nearly 6 years old.
> Way ta go Champ



He is increasing his post count.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> Replying to a post nearly 6 years old.
> Way ta go Champ



He is increasing his post count.


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## kurup

Flight status update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed *2349* Test Flights Successfully. (18-Oct-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-375,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-162*,LSP4-94,*LSP5-220*,LSP7-65,NP1-4,*LSP8-31*)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed *2356* Test Flights Successfully. (22-Oct-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-375,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-164*,LSP4-94,*LSP5-222*,LSP7-65,NP1-4,*LSP8-34*)


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## sudhir007

Status Update

From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2356 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-375,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-164,LSP4-94,LSP5-222,LSP7-65,NP1-4,LSP8-34)


To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2364 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-376*,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-167*,LSP4-94,LSP5-222,*LSP7-66*,NP1-4,*LSP8-37*)

hmmmmmmm 10 Flight in 2 day, it seem they are hurry


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## HariPrasad

Good going. 8 flights in 2 days. Let us expect IOC by November.


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## shiv

if i am not wrong, it is the LSP-7 which will be pushed to production ?


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## HariPrasad

shiv said:


> if i am not wrong, it is the LSP-7 which will be pushed to production ?


Why not LSP 8? After all it is more modern as it is the last version of LSP series with modifies air intake and other changes ? 

What happened to LSP 6?


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## shiv

HariPrasad said:


> Why not LSP 8? After all it is more modern as it is the last version of LSP series with modifies air intake and other changes ?
> 
> What happened to LSP 6?



I dont follow LCA developments that closely but I read it somewhere about LSP-7 being the final model or something ! Perhaps a more learned guy can throw some light on it


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## HariPrasad

shiv said:


> I dont follow LCA developments that closely but I read it somewhere about LSP-7 being the final model or something ! Perhaps a more learned guy can throw some light on it




No man LSP 7 can not be. You might have read that it is very close to IOC standard. If they are going to produce LSP 7 than what is the meaning of developing LSP 8 for 1 year? 20 LSP 8 with some modifications shall be produced and rest 20 shall be FOC standard. Current order is of 40 planes. 

LCA MK2 will come (Planned) meanwhile in next 2 years. work on MK2 is already started. It will be out in 2014 may fly in 2015. FOC in 2016 and Induction in 2018.


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## Raje amar

HariPrasad said:


> No man LSP 7 can not be. You might have read that it is very close to IOC standard. If they are going to produce LSP 7 than what is the meaning of developing LSP 8 for 1 year? 20 LSP 8 with some modifications shall be produced and rest 20 shall be FOC standard. Current order is of 40 planes.
> 
> LCA MK2 will come (Planned) meanwhile in next 2 years. work on MK2 is already started. It will be out in 2014 may fly in 2015. FOC in 2016 and Induction in 2018.


Hope MK II will fly in 2015. Though I am not that optimistic at best they can get FOC for MK II by 2019.


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## duhastmish

Came to this thread after years and still same ol. This is happening for past 10 years. Now 2018 is suppose to be induction but I will be surprised if they can make it till 2025. I seen the labs and scientists Tejas is in wrong hands for development and moreover for IAF who doesn't want it.
Scrap it and go for private sector companies with time limitation.


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## sudhir007

Status Update

From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2364 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-167,LSP4-94,LSP5-222,LSP7-66,NP1-4,LSP8-37)

To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2372 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Oct-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-168*,LSP4-94,*LSP5-225*,LSP7-66,NP1-4,*LSP8-41*)

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## Sergi

sudhir007 said:


> Status Update
> 
> From:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2364 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Oct-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-167,LSP4-94,LSP5-222,LSP7-66,NP1-4,LSP8-37)
> 
> To:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2372 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Oct-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,*LSP3-168*,LSP4-94,*LSP5-225*,LSP7-66,NP1-4,*LSP8-41*)


Wasn't LSP-8 part of IOC-2 ??? Why it is still with HAL ?


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## sudhir007

Sergi said:


> Wasn't LSP-8 part of IOC-2 ??? Why it is still with HAL ?


LSP-7 & 8 willbe handed over after the IOC-2 to IAF.


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## Sergi

sudhir007 said:


> LSP-7 & 8 willbe handed over after the IOC-2 to IAF.


Yup thats why I asked. Arent they supposed to be IAF now ?


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## HariPrasad

Hi Guys,

Work on LCA MK2 is in full swing. Some configurations of LCA are testes on Jaguar and other models of LCA in order to reduce testing once LCA MK2 flies. It includes new F claws and weight distribution in new frame. 

A change in exhaust design is also planned.

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## Sri

Can you please let us know if there is any plan to improve the air inlet design in MK2 as MK1's main problem seems to be air intakes ( read it some where) due to which its not able to deliver the thrust. Thanks in Advance...


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## sancho

Sri said:


> Can you please let us know if there is any plan to improve the air inlet design in MK2 as MK1's main problem seems to be air intakes ( read it some where) due to which its not able to deliver the thrust. Thanks in Advance...



If that would be an issue, they would need credible changes for the GE 414 engine, but according to all official statements, the air intake remains the same with some minor changes to the inlets. The last few prototypes however saw some drag improvements to the intakes, just like at the APU intake.

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## Yogi

@sancho @sandy_3126 @Dillinger @Abingdonboy @gslv mk3

1. Are the 8 LSPs part of the 20 Mk1?

2. If everything goes as per plan(like Mk1- FOC by Dec 2014), how much time do u believe HAL will take to have the full production capacity of 16 planes/yr ?
Or will it be around 20 planes/yr?

3. By what time do u expect Mk2 to get FOC n get into production?


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## rockstarIN

^^ 20 LCA-MKI will be counted as SP-1, SP2 etc not LSP. so far I know. SP-1 is under production I believe.

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## kurup

*LCA Tejas Update*








Naval Prototype (NP-1) which was grounded for over more then a year to fix landing gear issues has once again joined the test flights with modified landing gear and after few test in Bangalore will soon move to Naval base INS Hansa in Goa for further trails there , Shore-Based Test Facility (SBTF) in INS Hansa is almost complete and this facility will be used to train Naval pilots for aircraft carrier roles .

According to sources close to idrw.org minor Performance improvement has been carried out on Tejas MK-1 (LSP ) but no details have been provided on how that was achieved . LCA team were also able to double up the test flights carried out in 2013 from last year with out facing any technical issues with the aircraft , in 2012 LCA variants carried out 204 test flights , but till October 2013 test flights carried out stood at 417 which is highest in last 12 years from its first flight in 2001 .

IOC-2 of the LCA has been set for 31st Dec 2013 and it seems it might been achieved , SP-1 and SP-2 which will be IOC certified aircraft which will be ready soon and have its first flight by March 2014 next year and plans are to hand them over to IAF by Mid of 2014 for user tests. HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I , First 20 Lca will be IOC certified and second lot will be FOC certified and FOC is planned to be achieved by end of 2015 and another 100 GE F-414 engines will be brought for Tejas Mk-II.

PV-1 which was long pulled out of test flights is currently been fitted with electronic warfare (EW) systems and will be back in air to carry out tests . sources ahave also confirmed that HAL and ADA have started testing Tejas MK-2 LRU’s and other components.

http://idrw.org/?p=28815

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## sancho

Yogi said:


> @sancho @sandy_3126 @Dillinger @Abingdonboy @gslv mk3
> 
> 1. Are the 8 LSPs part of the 20 Mk1?
> 
> 2. If everything goes as per plan(like Mk1- FOC by Dec 2014), how much time do u believe HAL will take to have the full production capacity of 16 planes/yr ?
> Or will it be around 20 planes/yr?
> 
> 3. By what time do u expect Mk2 to get FOC n get into production?



Recent reports only said that Mk1 is already in production, not sure if the LSP would be part of that batch, or remain for test and training purposes. 
Full production depends on the order, we currently have 40 Mk1s on order, while the follow orders are for MK2, which will have credible changes so can't be simply been done like that. More importantly, it all depends on when that version is fully developed! If the MK2 can only be available around 2018, it doesn't make sense to speed up LCA MK1 production too fast and stop the production till 2017, when the MK2 can be started. 
To be honest, the MK2 is still so uncertain, if we don't even know basic specs about it how can we speculate about it's FOC?

Still a long way to go and I am more interested in how capable or not capable the MK1 really will be!
What radar will it have (Indian or Israeli MMR), which HMS, when will Derby be inducted and will it get Python V too? How long will it take to induct Sudarshan LGB and can it get Helina as well, what is the real range and endurance, or how hard will it be to detect, compared to Mig 21s or M2Ks?
People think too much about LCA MK2, some even about MK3, or AMCA and we didn't even know too much about MK1!

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## sancho

P.S. LCA MK2 is basically build to IN and IAFs requirement, while MK1 is build as a "normal" 4th gen fighter. Today there is a huge market out there for low cost and cost-effective to operate fighters. I wonder if we could get the Israelis to form a partnership on joined marketing and sales of LCA MK1 for exports. 

- EL 2032 radar
- Litening pod
- Dash HMS
- Python V SR AAM
- Derby MR AAM
- Spice 250, 1000, 2000
- Griffin LGBs
- possibly even airlaunched SPIKE or LAHAT ATGM pods

Add the US GE engines and you have a lot of capability export countries would like to have in a small and cost-effective fighter.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> P.S. LCA MK2 is basically build to IN and IAFs requirement, while MK1 is build as a "normal" 4th gen fighter. Today there is a huge market out there for low cost and cost-effective to operate fighters. I wonder if we could get the Israelis to form a partnership on joined marketing and sales of LCA MK1 for exports.
> 
> - EL 2032 radar
> - Litening pod
> - Dash HMS
> - Python V SR AAM
> - Derby MR AAM
> - Spice 250, 1000, 2000
> - Griffin LGBs
> - possibly even airlaunched SPIKE or LAHAT ATGM pods
> 
> Add the US GE engines and you have a lot of capability export countries would like to have in a small and cost-effective fighter.



Arent the current LSP's essentially "operational" with some of the above capabilities?


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## Yogi

sancho said:


> Recent reports only said that Mk1 is already in production, not sure if the LSP would be part of that batch, or remain for test and training purposes.
> Full production depends on the order, we currently have 40 Mk1s on order, while the follow orders are for MK2, which will have credible changes so can't be simply been done like that. More importantly, it all depends on when that version is fully developed! If the MK2 can only be available around 2018, it doesn't make sense to speed up LCA MK1 production too fast and stop the production till 2017, when the MK2 can be started.
> To be honest, the MK2 is still so uncertain, if we don't even know basic specs about it how can we speculate about it's FOC?
> 
> Still a long way to go and I am more interested in how capable or not capable the MK1 really will be!
> What radar will it have (Indian or Israeli MMR), which HMS, when will Derby be inducted and will it get Python V too? How long will it take to induct Sudarshan LGB and can it get Helina as well, what is the real range and endurance, or how hard will it be to detect, compared to Mig 21s or M2Ks?
> People think too much about LCA MK2, some even about MK3, or AMCA and we didn't even know too much about MK1!



Btw what do u think about the future role of Mk1 in IAF?

I mean i read somewhere that only Mk2 will be used in battle field. So, whats the point of inducting 40 Mk1? 

IMO If its basic training n know-how n developing tactics then 10-12 Mk1(FOC) + 8 LSP(upgraded to IOC 2) r sufficient as we already have Hawks.

PS:
With respect to Export possibilities of Mk1, i think its very limited as HAL always have production limitations due to huge IAF orders n Korean FA50 would be pretty hard to beat as it offers similar specs(although LCA is slightly better) while the price is the same(or rather less) n it already got an export client in the form of Philippines n then we have China with FC1 with Pakistan as a proven platform.


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## sudhir007

http://idrw.org/?p=28830

Following successful weapon release trials in Jamnagar in July, the Tejas programme is speeding towards another crucial milestone with electronic warfare trials to take place in November.The entire gamut of electronic warfare systems on board the first prototype vehicle PV-1 will be put through a series of tests towards operational clearance.

Systems that will be checked out include radar warning receivers, jamming suites, self-protection suites, electronic countermeasures (ECM) and other systems. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is in the process of checking out the PV-1 to ensure that it is ready in all respects for the electronic warfare (EW) flight trials. The airframe flew first in November 2003, and was replaced in the test programme after less than 250 flights as a result of consistent improvements in the later prototypes and limited series production airframes.


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## IND151

Following *successful weapon release trials* in *Jamnagar *in *July*, the *Tejas program *is speeding towards *another crucial milestone *with *electronic warfare trials* to take place in *November*.The entire gamut of electronic warfare systems on board the* first prototype vehicle PV-1* will be put through a series of tests towards operational clearance.

Systems that *will be checked* out include *radar warning receivers, jamming suites, self-protection suites, electronic countermeasures (ECM)* and other systems. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is in the process of checking out the PV-1 to ensure that it is ready in all respects for the electronic warfare (EW) flight trials. The airframe flew first in November 2003, and was replaced in the test programme after less than 250 flights as a result of consistent improvements in the later prototypes and limited series production airframes.


http://idrw.org/?p=28830

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Arent the current LSP's essentially "operational" with some of the above capabilities?



That's the point! It's not sure if they will use the EL 2032, but Dash HMS, Litening, or Derby are already fixed, so increasing the Israeli ammount and getting them as a JV partner to market LCA MK1s with the high content of Israeli systems will give them a good chance for higher exports of their systems, just like we could benefit from their marketing advantages. There are a lot of countries that obviously will prefer LCA with Python V and Derby, instead of R73 and a non available Astra. When the aim is to export it now or as soon as possible, Israel and their systems would be a great choice!
For IAF on the other side, the Israeli systems and the MK1 are only a bridge to the capabilities they require and an increased Indian content, that can be developed alongside LCA upgrades, but which shouldn't stop us from offering the fighter for exports.




Yogi said:


> Btw what do u think about the future role of Mk1 in IAF?



It is developed with full capabilities, IAF even insisted on strike trials and operating it at high altitude areas, although the MK1s are meant to be stationed in the south, which means if necessary, IAF plans to use them in all over the country too. The main role of LCA is of course interception, or air policing, with the Litening pod and LGBs it will be able to perform CAS just like the Jags too and depending on if IAF integrates Kh 35 to them as well, they even could be used for anti ship roles.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> That's the point! It's not sure if they will use the EL 2032, but Dash HMS, Litening, or Derby are already fixed, so increasing the Israeli ammount and getting them as a JV partner to market LCA MK1s with the high content of Israeli systems will give them a good chance for higher exports of their systems, just like we could benefit from their marketing advantages. There are a lot of countries that obviously will prefer LCA with Python V and Derby, instead of R73 and a non available Astra. When the aim is to export it now or as soon as possible, Israel and their systems would be a great choice!
> For IAF on the other side, the Israeli systems and the MK1 are only a bridge to the capabilities they require and an increased Indian content, that can be developed alongside LCA upgrades, but which shouldn't stop us from offering the fighter for exports..



Question is, in the history of fighter exports it is pertinent that some local usage be demonstrated first before exports are undertaken. The Israelis just got off modernization contracts for South American markets so it is safe to say that airforce such as Chile, Ecuador and Peru are just off their recent modernization efforts so they might not be interested. Middle eastern clients would back off due to Israel which leaves just places in the far east. The Central Asian states are very Russian bound as well. So the market sector really needs further exploration before committing to export. One market that could be exploited well using both economic and diplomatic contacts is Vietnam. It has a large fleet of Mig-21's that are up for replacement and it is looking around the arms market. That will however, put the Tejas in competition with the Russian entries and for that perhaps integration of the R-77 and 73 should be kept in hand.
The Israeli's need not be on JV and can instead continue to be program partners in terms of avionics. 

That being said; there is no harm in asking the Israelis for help in probing their traditional markets in latin america or perhaps Africa.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Question is, in the history of fighter exports it is pertinent that some local usage be demonstrated first before exports are undertaken.



Of course, but that is dealt by the order and coming induction of 40 x MK1s into IAF, the only difference would be the weapon pack and partially some avionics (data links for example).



Oscar said:


> The Israelis just got off modernization contracts


Exactly, "only" modernisation contracts, where they have to compete with US, European or other foreign countries (see IAF, SPICE vs AASM, Python V vs ASRAAM, Iris-T, MICA, AIM9). If they can sell Israeli avionics and weapons as a packag with new fighters instead, the ammount of their sales will be higher and have more potential for later follow orders or simpler upgrades, where they won't have to compete with others necessarily. 
If the US wouldn't had blocked the Israeli aero industry, they would sell fighters on export markets and get benefits out of it, LCA actually gets them a way around that.



Oscar said:


> Middle eastern clients would back off due to Israel which leaves just places in the far east. The Central Asian states are very Russian bound as well. So the market sector really needs further exploration before committing to export.



The middle eastern market is a low chance market for low cost fighters like LCA or JF17, since these countries can afford way better, the only question was, can they get it. Today when they can get F15SAs, F16s B60s, Rafales, or EFs, they don't need light class 4th gen fighters anymore.
Instead there are a lot of countries that used F16s and Mig 21s in the past, infact any smaller western countries (especially some of the ex eastblock countries in Europe), that don't want to go for Russian, but can't afford European fighters other than the Gripen, could be aimed. Keep in mind that the F16 is going out of production soon, so only Gripen (which doesn't have the C/D in production anymore) would be a contender in the light to medium class. Asian and South American countries are on the list as well, Vietnam as you pointed out, which even can remain with Russian weapons, since they will be integrated for IAF's use anyway (R73 and most likely Kh35), but I don't see why Israel should deny them weapons, nor why they wouldn't go for them if they can afford them. The remaining Russian weapons can still be used with their Flankers. 

The point is, the market of an Indo-Israeli LCA MK1 can aim on, is different than a JF17 or J10 could aim on, since they can't reach most F16s customers for political reasons and the advantages of marketing we could have with Israeli political or industrial back up, would be a huge advantage, since LCA otherwise would only be seen as any other South Asian product, low cost / low quality, so it would be a big PR boost too.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Of course, but that is dealt by the order and coming induction of 40 x MK1s into IAF, the only difference would be the weapon pack and partially some avionics (data links for example).
> 
> 
> Exactly,* "only" modernisation contracts*,.



The point with the modernization contracts was that for now the requirements of these various forces have been met. Ecuador for e.g. has recently upgraded its Kfir's and bought refurbished M-III Cheetahs. Their A-37 fleet is to be replaced by Super Tucanos so there is no requirement there. Chile has been an Israeli customer but at the moment their fleet is full with low hour F-16s and as such in no need for additional purchases. 

Peru has gone all Russian and as such no types are up for replacement and Uruguay is too poor. Argentina is as such the only contender and a very ripe one at that because they have operated Israeli equipment in the past and are supported on and off by the US. Right now, China is taking the lead in market penetration efforts into Argentina.
Paraguay may be another market but possibly at max 8-12 aircraft and that too if they can afford it. 

Both the LCA and JF-17 have their main contender in second hand F-16's which still might be available(_and like it or not.. the F-16 is still IMHO a more potent fighter than either in its upgraded form_). The other contenders to the LCA or for that matter the JF-17 is the South korean T/A-50 which also had the added benefit of being used as a LIFT. Although I honestly thing that the LCA(with the LEVCONS) is a great LIFT and possibly a better contender than the T-50 in that role. 
Anyway, the remaining potential markets are then states like Malaysia(_not Indonesia as it does not recognize Israel and the LCA has a lot of Israel in it_) or perhaps certain African states(_but these are falling to the Chinese like flies in terms of influence_). 

Honestly, I dont think neither the Tejas or JF-17 have much export potential unless the Chinese push their influence for the latter for their existing F-7 customers(_if they dont sacrifice the J-10 sales for that_). Fighters like the Mig-21, F-4 and F-5 were "sold" because of bloc alignment during the cold war. Right now, the market is open and people prefer established market entries if they can afford it. Even Romania went for second hand F-16s. 

One possibility for sales of the LCA would be to align it with a former colonial power like France(in lieu of the MRCA agreement). That might entice the french to offer more than they in the other program while gaining a product they can add to their portfolio. Sales are quite possible then to states like Libya and other former French colonies.

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## SQ8

As proof of the pudding @sancho :

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/b39390212b18



> Israel is already producing the new AESA for the upgraded Block 60 Kfir that it is building for it an unnamed customer.



And the main competitor that already took a possible order that could have been the LCAs



> So far, KAI’s predictions seem to be bearing out … to an extent. On Oct. 17, South Korea signed a memorandum of understanding with the Philippine government to sell that nation 12 FA-50 fighters for $450 million. A final contract is expected soon.
> 
> Other potential markets include countries in Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe and South America. Iraq, Peru, Poland and Chile have all been named as potential customers, according to a report in _Flight International__._



Not sure how Iraq will agree to the Elta radar unless they replace it with the APG-67.


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## Hulk

@sancho The recent article by ex IAF chief about time taken by LCA to replace its engine being greater. Do you know if there is any attempt to address that in LCA MK2. I kind of felt that his article was on the spot on what HAL should try to do with LCA MK2.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Both the LCA and JF-17 have their main contender in second hand F-16's which still might be available.


Of course and as long as it will be produced, it remains to be the most interesting choice, for countries that can afford and buy it for political reasons (Rumania), but there are still a lot of countries that either require cheaper fighters and still want to remain with western technology. That's where neither the Russian, nor any Chinese fighter can make a deal (while I see the biggest potential for Chinese fighters in Africa anyway). 
Btw, the T50 is mainly a trainer not a real fighter and would fall short if it enters competitions with Gripen, F16s, or even LCA, JF 17 and J10. 



Oscar said:


> Anyway, the remaining potential markets are then states like Malaysia



Malaysia has already a new fighter competition and is likely to follow IAF with Rafales. 



Oscar said:


> One possibility for sales of the LCA would be to align it with a former colonial power like France(in lieu of the MRCA agreement). That might entice the french to offer more than they in the other program while gaining a product they can add to their portfolio. Sales are quite possible then to states like Libya and other former French colonies.



I would be more than in favour of common parts like AESA and FSO for Rafale and LCA, the problem however is, that the LCA then would be just another competitor for the Rafale (obviously far less capable though), most countries might prefer a cheaper LCA with Rafale techs and weapons, than buying the Rafale itself (pretty much the same issue that China has with JF17 and J10, which share the same market and where China obviously benefits more from selling J10 instead of JF 17), which doesn't get Dassault anything, so I don't see them going for this option.
That's the advantage of Israel again, they don't have any own product on the fighter market, only parts and techs. So they would just benefit from being a partner. 
Libyia btw is likely to go for UAE's M2Ks as soon as they fix a Rafale deal and might get Rafales later too. Even Gaddafi was close to buy Rafales, the only issue was that the French blocked Scalp cruise missiles, which he wanted.

Imo, when you look at Europe for example, Poland (lot of old Russian fighters in their inventory), Greece (although possibly bind to buy 2nd hand EFs or Rafale), Check Republic (alternative to Gripen lease extention), or Bulgaria would be perfect for LCA MK1 sales. Mainly to replace older Russian fighters and to provide them a cost-effective alternative with western techs. That's the niche LCA must aim on, but where it has to offer something now and not only when IAF has got their MK2. 


indianrabbit said:


> @sancho The recent article by ex IAF chief about time taken by LCA to replace its engine being greater. Do you know if there is any attempt to address that in LCA MK2. I kind of felt that his article was on the spot on what HAL should try to do with LCA MK2.



Depends on how credible the changes of the fuselage will be. If the only aim will be the integration of the new engine, possibly no, if they say we have to make changes, than improve this problem too, it might, lets wait and see. But that's what I mean, there is still so many things we will learn about LCA only, when MK1 is available and in service. That's why all the thinking about MK2, MK3, or even AMCA does not make any sense at the moment.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> I would be more than in favour of common parts like AESA and FSO for Rafale and LCA, the problem however is, that the LCA then would be just another *competitor for the Rafale* (obviously far less capable though), most countries might prefer a cheaper LCA with Rafale techs and weapons
> 
> Imo, when you look at Europe for example, Poland (lot of old Russian fighters in their inventory), Greece (although possibly bind to buy 2nd hand EFs or Rafale), Check Republic (alternative to Gripen lease extention), or Bulgaria would be perfect for LCA MK1 sales. Mainly to replace older Russian fighters and to provide them a cost-effective alternative with western techs. That's the niche LCA must aim on, but where it has to offer something now and not only when IAF has got their MK2..



I dont think the LCA will be a competitor, a complement perhaps in a high low mix. Libya may go for a frenched LCA but not for an Israeli one. The Poles are content with the F-16 as their multirole which has taken over the strike role from the Su-22s and will continue with the Mig-29 as their air superiority jet for the time being. The Greeks are too poor for anything and if they do it will be european stuff. The Czechs already have their Gripen which is almost in the same class as the LCA while offering logistical and overhaul benefits. That leaves you the Bulgarians, the Serbs and the Croats. Within them the Bulgarians and the Croats are considering a joint purchase of fighters for commonality and logistics and the leading contenders are the Eurofighter and the F-16. The Serbs then are the best possibility for an export order and considering their aircraft industry was once about to manufacture the baby Rafale(novi avion) and they have excellent relations with Israel. So there you have it, the best chance the LCA has for export is Serbia.. write to your local Neta now.

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## Abingdonboy

@sancho @Oscar- the question is why does the LCA need to be exported so badly? Is it purely to legitimise the project? If it is about recouping costs the domestic orders of the IAF and IN will more than offset such development costs. I certainly think HAL need to be focussing on meeting the orders of the IN and IAF before they go off trying to market the fighter to others. The IAF and iN are respected worldwide and if the fighter has their seal of approval this is surely one of the best advertisements the LCA could have.


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## faithfulguy

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho @Oscar- the question is why does the LCA need to be exported so badly? Is it purely to legitimise the project? If it is about recouping costs the domestic orders of the IAF and IN will more than offset such development costs. I certainly think HAL need to be focussing on meeting the orders of the IN and IAF before they go off trying to market the fighter to others. The IAF and iN are respected worldwide and if the fighter has their seal of approval this is surely one of the best advertisements the LCA could have.




LCA is like an update version of Mirage 2000. I'm surprised that Dassault do not try to collect loyalties. In any case, unless India induct LCA is large numbers. Per unit price of LCA will remain out of reach of most 3rd world or eastern bloc countries. The reasoning is simple, if India would not buy its own fighters in large number, why would others? Also, for similar price point, would a country buy Rafale or LCA? LCA need to position itself around the price of JF-17. Because fair or not, LCA is regarded as the same class of fighter as JF-17.


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## Abingdonboy

faithfulguy said:


> LCA need to position itself around the price of JF-17. Because fair or not, LCA is regarded as the same class of fighter as JF-17.


That's impractical tbh, the LCA especially the Mk.2 has some very expensive tech in it (weapons, much of the avionics, engine etc) so the basic price of the LCA is likely to always be more than the JF-17 for these reasons no matter how many units of the LCA are ordered.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho @Oscar- the question is why does the LCA need to be exported so badly? Is it purely to legitimise the project? If it is about *recouping costs the domestic orders of the IAF and IN will more than offset such development costs*. I certainly think HAL need to be focussing on meeting the orders of the IN and IAF before they go off trying to market the fighter to others. The IAF and iN are* respected worldwide and if the fighter has their seal of approval *this is surely one of the best advertisements the LCA could have.



As long as the cost of the program is kept under the sanctioned Rs 15547(14047 orig + 1500 extra in FY2012) crore or $2.3 billion(_averaged for inflation_) for the program(_I am not sure if the GE F414 deal is part of these costs_).. the 170 fighters on order now will each appropriate costs of approx $15 million dollars. However the current costs for the LCA program so far according to estimates are





Official recent government information
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=97831
Which means that out of the allotted 15547 Crore some 7965.56(or 7*10^7 rupees) Crore has been spent on Development of aircraft (PDP + FSED-I and II) which are a total of 11 aircraft . That leaves some 7582 Crore for the production of 40 Mk-1 combat aircraft. If HAL can ensure that the flyaway cost of Tejas at 180 Crore it wants then the budget will be met but the trends in the program dont show this. As such the spirited defence put up by articles in blogs along with PS Subramanyam failed to include inflation and their predictions fell short as further delays ensued. A lot of the development costs are sunk costs and their R&D value immense.. but that is true for any fighter aircraft and so these costs go into the equation. With exports, there is a possibility that India will be able to recoup some further investment and also establish foothold markets for other follow on products such as the 


Abingdonboy said:


> That's impractical tbh, the LCA especially the Mk.2 has some very expensive tech in it (weapons, much of the avionics, engine etc) so the basic price of the LCA is likely to always be more than the JF-17 for these reasons no matter how many units of the LCA are ordered.



That could be fixed if private sector is allowed to invest. Costs of the JF-17 are kept down ONLY because the Chinese are offering systems are subsidized rates. However, additional systems procured from other nations such as European Nations and SA do raise the cost. The Tejas could take advantage of investment by private sector and local procurement to reduce costs.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> That could be fixed if private sector is allowed to invest. Costs of the JF-17 are kept down ONLY because the Chinese are offering systems are subsidized rates. However, additional systems procured from other nations such as European Nations and SA do raise the cost. The Tejas could take advantage of investment by private sector and local procurement to reduce costs.


But much of the foreign systems on the LCA are amongst the best such products available on the market. It's hard to say that the Chinese products on the JF-17 are up to that spec. The only reason China hasn't gone down that route is because of necessity- it's highly unlikely these Western manufacturers offering high-end stuff would risk selling to China with their reputation for not respecting IPR. India is in a position where it can get the best stuff available on the open market. Naturally this isn't a particularly sound plan for the long-term but that's why India is slowly but surely investing more into R&D.


I'm sure you'd agree sir that on the technical side the LCA (and especially the MK.2) is a pretty decent little bird in terms of the hardware onboard and its capabilities.




Also, it's entirely pointless to keep using an India vs China analogy, for oh so many reasons India is NOT China.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> But much of the foreign systems on the LCA are amongst the best such products available on the market. It's hard to say that the Chinese products on the JF-17 are up to that spec.
> 
> I'm sure you'd agree sir that on the technical side the LCA (and especially the MK.2) is a pretty decent little bird in terms of the hardware onboard and its capabilities.
> 
> Also, it's entirely pointless to keep using an India vs China analogy, for oh so many reasons India is NOT China.



Again, to try and gauge Chinese tech based on age old assumptions(_at one time the term "japani maal" was used in a derogatory way_).. but that is a different argument. The LCA Mk2 may be a decent fit but using western components to achieve that decent fit drives up the costs. By involved private sector industries who have more assets by which to offset costs and achieve business parity; the costs of the avionics on the Mk2 could also be reduced.

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## rockstarIN

[quote="Oscar, post: 4920879, member: 14956"*]I dont think the LCA will be a competitor, a complement perhaps in a high low mix*. Libya may go for a frenched LCA but not for an Israeli one. The Poles are content with the F-16 as their multirole which has taken over the strike role from the Su-22s and will continue with the Mig-29 as their air superiority jet for the time being. The Greeks are too poor for anything and if they do it will be european stuff. The Czechs already have their Gripen which is almost in the same class as the LCA while offering logistical and overhaul benefits. That leaves you the Bulgarians, the Serbs and the Croats. Within them the Bulgarians and the Croats are considering a joint purchase of fighters for commonality and logistics and the leading contenders are the Eurofighter and the F-16. The Serbs then are the best possibility for an export order and considering their aircraft industry was once about to manufacture the baby Rafale(novi avion) and they have excellent relations with Israel. So there you have it, the best chance the LCA has for export is Serbia.. write to your local Neta now. [/quote]

Practically both are different class, you can see the Gripen(same class) competing with the middle weight rafales and EFs in European fighter competition, like Swiz. It is due to the less operating cost with single engined fighter, as Europe is not in a good shape in terms of economics.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> I dont think the LCA will be a competitor, a complement perhaps in a high low mix.



Of course, but the difference between modern light class fighters and medium class fighters is not as different as a F15/F16 high lo combo anymore, guess why the French and the US blocked techs for the Gripen, to make it less competitive compared to Rafale, F16/F18, although it still is far away from the performance of an Rafale or F18SH. So providing LCA with the same techs or weapons that Rafale offers similarly might be a problem for Dassault (US denied F18SH AESA as well).



Oscar said:


> The Poles are content with the F-16 as their multirole which has taken over the strike role from the Su-22s and will continue with the Mig-29 as their air superiority jet for the time being.


I have read other things about there Migs, in fact there is already talk about them replacing them, the only question is how much they want to spend for the replacement. With their current defence spending, they could even go for EFs or Rafales.



Oscar said:


> The Czechs already have their Gripen which is almost in the same class as the LCA while offering logistical and overhaul benefits.That leaves you the Bulgarians, the Serbs and the Croats. Within them the Bulgarians and the Croats are considering a joint purchase of fighters for commonality and logistics and the leading contenders are the Eurofighter and the F-16.



The EF is no contender in these countries, because it's by far too expensive even as 2nd hand buy, that's one reason why Rumania didn't went for German offers. Not to mention that these countries mainly needs fighters for air policing and we had seen it in Switzerland that no matter how good the performance of certain fighters can be, if they are simply too expensive. Here an Indo - Israeli LCA offers a good mix of cost and capability for a light class fighter, especially for cost-effective air policing roles. Infact, if such an LCA could had been offered in the Swiss competition, it would had been very interesting if LCA could had been offered to Swiss.

The point is, that too many countries can't afford the expensive Eurocanards, let alone 5th gen fighters and when the F16 production runs out, there is a gap that could be filled with it.




Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho @Oscar- the question is why does the LCA need to be exported so badly? Is it purely to legitimise the project? If it is about recouping costs the domestic orders of the IAF and IN will more than offset such development costs. I certainly think HAL need to be focussing on meeting the orders of the IN and IAF before they go off trying to market the fighter to others. The IAF and iN are respected worldwide and if the fighter has their seal of approval this is surely one of the best advertisements the LCA could have.



When we keep waiting for our forces to induct it in useful numbers, we are talking about exports only by the next decade. The MK1 is not interesting for the navy and there will be a production gap between MK1 and MK2 for IAF, so exporting MK1s now, besides IAFs MK1 order would not only extend the production, but also reduces the overall costs.
For example, Afghanistan would be the most logical choice for a fast sale, one reason why I would love to sell them some Jaguar squads, but LCA MK1s might be even more interesting to them. Some of the European nations that I mentioned would be interested, especially if marketed by Israel.
Only because our forces hav


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> That leaves some 7582 Crore for the production of 40 Mk-1 combat aircraft. If HAL can ensure that the flyaway cost of Tejas at 180 Crore it wants then the budget will be met but the trends in the program dont show this.



Which means $29 million each, at current exchange rates, compared to around $23 millions for 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds that the Swedes want to sell, which shows the cost advantage that is possible today.
The rest of the development costs or possible increases are based on the further developments for IAF and IN requirements, which doesn't necessarily would be related to an export MK1, so wouldn't be included for export fighters, since you can't add development costs of the N-LCA for exports of the land based MK1.


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## IND151

*Bangalore: *Defence scientists, engineers and pilots attached to India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme are on a war footing to ensure that the fighter doesn't miss the December deadline for its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2). *Three aircraft (LSP-3, LSP-5, LSP-8) from the Tejas flight-line are currently undertaking weapon trials in Jamnagar. The Russian-made R73-E missile will be fired during the ongoing trials. *
Sources confirm to _Express _that the* Ministry of Defence* has *made it clear* to both *Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)* and *Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)* that the* IOC-2 deadline won't be extended any more*. *The IAF pilots will formally get to fly Tejas after the IOC-2 **declaration.* So far, the *Tejas variants* have completed *2391 sorties, clocking 1,520 hour*s in over 12 years. 
Currently the fine tuning of the software and various onboard systems are being done during various trials. Flight trials are also progressing in Bangalore with the final version of equipment and mission systems getting a relook. “We haven't been lagging on any of the IOC-2 parameters now. We are working to clear all the test points. The results of Jamnagar trials will be crucial,” says an HAL official working with the Aircraft Research and Design Centre. 
“Every weapon has to be fired at different modes, expanding the flight envelope of the aircraft. It is a huge matrix and we have to tick-mark all points ahead of the IOC-2 closure. A final review is expected next month ahead of IOC-2,” the official added. 
Sources say that the Digital Flight Control Computer and Air Data Computer of Tejas have been showing hardware failures causing last-minute concerns to the engineers. “But the show must go on. Now the naval prototype of Tejas (NP1) is also ready with all its modifications and raring to go. The modified Tejas trainer (PV5) with its matured software is also ready,” an official said. 
The growing differences between HAL and the Indian Air Force are a concern to New Delhi, which is bent on the programme getting the IOC-2 tag before December. The Finance Ministry's refusal to grant pension to ADA employees recently (a long-pending demand) has also created heartburn to many working on the Tejas project. 
Notwithstanding the turmoils and delays the project has been facing recently, a Defence Research and Development Organisation official said December 20 has been tentatively fixed for IOC-2. “As of now that's the date floating around, and it is subject to change,” the official added.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...jGFZh147-3VOidtyzYzGHMg&bvm=bv.56146854,d.bmk

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## rockstarIN

Notwithstanding the turmoils and delays the project has been facing recently, a Defence Research and Development Organisation official said _*December 20*_ has been tentatively fixed for IOC-2.


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## he-man

bullshit of the highest order


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## sudhir007

Livefist: Tejas Christmas For IAF?

With three limited series production airframes of the LCA Tejas now ripping it up in the skies over the IAF's South-Western Air Command ranges in Gujarat, there's hope that the residual initial operational clearance milestone (designated IOC-2) will be achieved before Christmas. The three aircraft will be performing all manner of weapons release, including firing the Vympel R-73 again. The aircraft will also tick off test points in nightflying, electronic warfare and sensor-weapon integration. My sources tell me the Tejas team is looking to declare IOC-2 in a time window between Dec 19-24. Here's hoping it happens.
On November 6, Defence Minister AK Antony gave the DRDO an earful, making it amply clear that the team would get no further extensions on time and cost. And remember, after IOC-2, the IAF gets to fly the Tejas as part of routine squadron sorties. Also in the pipeline, the possible roll-out of four series production LCAs from HAL's Bangalore facility next month. Let's hope that lands on time too.
Lots on the Tejas over the next few weeks.

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## MilSpec

LCA tejas will qualify for Python IV, derby, RVV AE-M1, RVV MD, R73, R27, and astra I/II and hopefully mica, making it's AAM quals almost equal to MKI


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## kaykay

what about R-77 missile test from Tejas?? Never heard it testing this particular missile as of now.


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## MilSpec

kaykay said:


> what about R-77 missile test from Tejas?? Never heard it testing this particular missile as of now.


Radar binding source codes are similar for R73, R77, R27, based on radar range almost every aircraft qualified for one can fire all three (with a few exception which we wont go into now)....I would like to see LCA qualify fo some anti shipping missiles like KH 59 and KH 35, KH31, and KH 29

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## GURU DUTT

sandy_3126 said:


> LCA tejas will qualify for Python IV, derby, RVV AE-M1, RVV MD, R73, R27, and astra I/II and hopefully mica, making it's AAM quals almost equal to MKI


well sir please can u upload the specs of proposed LCA MK1 in terms of fighting radius , radar range & tracking ability, wepons package with there ranges...thanks in advance


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## MilSpec

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir please can u upload the specs of proposed LCA MK1 in terms of fighting radius , radar range & tracking ability, wepons package with there ranges...thanks in advance



Radar range, I am not really sure about, I think it should be the available specs of the Elta 2032, the significance of this particular radar is that it can quaify all soviet, Israeli and french missiles, that includes all (r27, r77 family, r73 variants) + Derby and Python 4 (same as harrier and MKI), mica and Astra missiles,

Now As far as I know older Mig 29's had compatibility issue with python 4 and hence it was qualified on MKI with significant R&D, and Mirages cannot qualify any russian missiles, that makes MKI and LCA unique to qualify indian-israeli-french-russian armaments. I think that is very coo!!!

Off topic, I have heard very good things about the elta 2032 on harriers, sometimes we go gonzo over over range, but noise cancellation, signal strength, resolution are equally important features for radar packages....


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## he-man

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir please can u upload the specs of proposed LCA MK1 in terms of fighting radius , radar range & tracking ability, wepons package with there ranges...thanks in advance


elta 2032 has 150 km detection range


Description: EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode fire control radar intended for multi-mission fighter aircraft. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. In the air-to-air mode the radar delivers long-range target detection and tracking capability. In the air-to-surface mode, the radar generates high resolution ground imagery using Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance. Air-to-Sea mode provides long-range detection and tracking as well as target identification capability.

EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km. The radar system weighs between 72 and 100 kg. To date, Elta Systems has integrated this radar system into F-4, F-5, F-16, Mirage and Mig-21.

EL/M-2032

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## GURU DUTT

he-man said:


> elta 2032 has 150 km detection range
> 
> 
> Description: EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode fire control radar intended for multi-mission fighter aircraft. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. In the air-to-air mode the radar delivers long-range target detection and tracking capability. In the air-to-surface mode, the radar generates high resolution ground imagery using Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance. Air-to-Sea mode provides long-range detection and tracking as well as target identification capability.
> 
> EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km. The radar system weighs between 72 and 100 kg. To date, Elta Systems has integrated this radar system into F-4, F-5, F-16, Mirage and Mig-21.
> 
> EL/M-2032


ok what about how many targets can it can track and scan simontaniousli and is that range of 150 Km for 3Msq or 5Msq targets


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## he-man

GURU DUTT said:


> ok what about how many targets can it can track and scan simontaniousli and is that range of 150 Km for 3Msq or 5Msq targets


here is the company brocure

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...4NWou793fIg_vFwpAFfzP8w&bvm=bv.56146854,d.bmk

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## rockstarIN

sandy_3126 said:


> Radar range, I am not really sure about, I think it should be the available specs of the Elta 2032, the significance of this particular radar is that it can quaify all soviet, Israeli and french missiles, that includes all (r27, r77 family, r73 variants) + Derby and Python 4 (same as harrier and MKI), mica and Astra missiles,
> 
> Now As far as I know older Mig 29's had compatibility issue with python 4 and hence it was qualified on MKI with significant R&D, and Mirages cannot qualify any russian missiles, that makes MKI and LCA unique to qualify indian-israeli-french-russian armaments. I think that is very coo!!!
> 
> Off topic, I have heard very good things about the elta 2032 on harriers, sometimes we go gonzo over over range, but noise cancellation, signal strength, resolution are equally important features for radar packages....



Is MKI radar accommodate French missiles? same way 2032 is okay with Russian BVRs?

It means we have source codes of 2032 as well as MKI BARs.

I would like to see 2052 AESA version of 2032 in LCA MK2. 


he-man said:


> elta 2032 has 150 km detection range
> 
> 
> Description: EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode fire control radar intended for multi-mission fighter aircraft. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. In the air-to-air mode the radar delivers long-range target detection and tracking capability. In the air-to-surface mode, the radar generates high resolution ground imagery using Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance. Air-to-Sea mode provides long-range detection and tracking as well as target identification capability.
> 
> EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km. The radar system weighs between 72 and 100 kg. To date, Elta Systems has integrated this radar system into F-4,* F-5, F-16, *Mirage and Mig-21.
> 
> EL/M-2032


 

Which air force has integrated F-16 with 2032? Sufas flying with American radars as they did not allow to change the radar.


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Is MKI radar accommodate French missiles? same way 2032 is okay with Russian BVRs?
> 
> It means we have source codes of 2032 as well as MKI BARs.
> 
> I would like to see 2052 AESA version of 2032 in LCA MK2.
> 
> 
> Which air force has integrated F-16 with 2032? Sufas flying with American radars as they did not allow to change the radar.



we cannot get 2052 as it was red flagged by the americans when we asked israelis to provide that.
so most probably aesa of mk2 will be home built with external help


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## Sri

Now I believe the 2052 Aesa is on offer - Advanced Systems Improve Tejas’ Fighting Skills - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News Earlier it was barred due to MMRCA competition which now US fighters have lost. Pl comment...
Tx

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## he-man

Sri said:


> Now I believe the 2052 Aesa is on offer - Advanced Systems Improve Tejas’ Fighting Skills - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News Earlier it was barred due to MMRCA competition which now US fighters have lost. Pl comment...
> Tx


am not sure but drdo is trying to develop indigenous aesa too..............so


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## Sri

IMHO in the end it would be a hybrid similar what we have in MK1 ( i.e. 2032 + Ind stuff). As developing Aesa in the stipulated time is not possible ( Looking at our past record). Or may be Desi Aesa is tagetted for MLU of Mk2


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## he-man

Sri said:


> IMHO in the end it would be a hybrid similar what we have in MK1 ( i.e. 2032 + Ind stuff). As developing Aesa in the stipulated time is not possible ( Looking at our past record). Or may be Desi Aesa is tagetted for MLU of Mk2


there is nothing hybrid about 2032 except that israelis will provide the source codes for weapon integration

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## Sri

"Defence Aviation has learnt that the radar was a Hybrid version of Israel’s Elta EL/M-2032 which is currently in service with Indian Navy on its Sea Harrier fleet. The radar is mechanically steered and most components are of Indian origin. The processor of the radar is of Israeli origin similar to that found on the EL/M-2032. There was some confusion regarding the type of radar but it has now been confirmed that it is Doppler pulse radar.
The achievement is significant as this bring the LCA-Tejas closer to receiving the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC). All the necessary tests to receive the IOC are done and now only tests related to the radar remain. It’s expected that these will be completed in 6 months and after that the LCA will enter service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which has ordered 40 units of LCA’s in IOC configuration. The first aircraft is expected to enter service during the second quarter of 2011."
LCA Tejas finally gets Radar! | Defence Aviation

Its hybrid as I understand, the Processor is elta's.


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## he-man

Sri said:


> "Defence Aviation has learnt that the radar was a Hybrid version of Israel’s Elta EL/M-2032 which is currently in service with Indian Navy on its Sea Harrier fleet. The radar is mechanically steered and most components are of Indian origin. The processor of the radar is of Israeli origin similar to that found on the EL/M-2032. There was some confusion regarding the type of radar but it has now been confirmed that it is Doppler pulse radar.
> The achievement is significant as this bring the LCA-Tejas closer to receiving the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC). All the necessary tests to receive the IOC are done and now only tests related to the radar remain. It’s expected that these will be completed in 6 months and after that the LCA will enter service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which has ordered 40 units of LCA’s in IOC configuration. The first aircraft is expected to enter service during the second quarter of 2011."
> LCA Tejas finally gets Radar! | Defence Aviation



nonsense

most components could be made in india on the basis of tot,,,,,,,,,,this dosen't mean its hybrid


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## Sri

You mean its completely TOT i.e. there is nothing which was indigenously made is being used?
Well then someone exp like Sancho, Sandy can throw some light


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## he-man

Sri said:


> You mean its completely TOT i.e. there is nothing which was indigenously made is being used?
> Well then someone exp like Sancho, Sandy can throw some light



yes i am saying so

drdo was developing a mmr radar indigenously but it was deemed useless,thats why we went for 2032
had it been indigenous we would have surely named it so


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> LCA tejas will qualify for Python IV, derby, RVV AE-M1, RVV MD, R73, R27, and astra I/II and hopefully mica, making it's AAM quals almost equal to MKI



That would be a huge waste of money!



Sri said:


> IMHO in the end it would be a hybrid similar what we have in MK1 ( i.e. 2032 + Ind stuff). As developing Aesa in the stipulated time is not possible ( Looking at our past record). Or may be Desi Aesa is tagetted for MLU of Mk2



The aim was a hybrid, indigenous radar with some Israeli parts, but as it seems it's still the indigenous radar that is not ready, which is why it's likely that the MK1 will come with the EL 2032 and some minor Indian parts maybe, while indigenous MMR, either comes in later upgrade stages, or even in the MK2, if the indigenous AESA is not ready in time, which is likely too.
Anyway, both silly decisions again, which makes LCA the fighter development, dependent on other indigenous tech developments!

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## he-man

sancho said:


> That would be a huge waste of money!
> 
> 
> 
> The aim was a hybrid, indigenous radar with some Israeli parts, but as it seems it's still the indigenous radar that is not ready, which is why it's likely that the MK1 will come with the EL 2032 and some minor Indian parts maybe, while indigenous MMR, either comes in later upgrade stages, or even in the MK2, if the indigenous AESA is not ready in time, which is likely too.
> Anyway, both silly decisions again, which makes LCA the fighter development, dependent on other indigenous tech developments!



can't we partner with russians like niip institute or phazotron niir??
whats taking so long?/


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> That would be a huge waste of money!



Not at all, it will be able to consolidate python 4 and derby inventory of the Harriers (mki might already have dibbs on them), it will be also able to consolidate vympel series missiles along with practice munitions, this also allows procurement of R27 stockpiles from ukraine for intermediate use until Astra family matures...Along with it I see no harm in qualifying KH series for N-LCA development.

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## sancho

he-man said:


> can't we partner with russians like niip institute or phazotron niir??
> whats taking so long?/



We can, but we don't want to. Russian techs and involvement was rejected as much as possible from LCA development in various areas, which was silly imo, but it is as it is. They offered to RD 33 varient, help for Kaveri, joint radar developments and would have been the most logical choice to navalise the fighter, considering we will use Russian Migs and a Russian carrier too, but we thought either we can do it better, or that anything that we can get from the west is more useful, another point where LCA program went the wrong way.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> We can, but we don't want to. Russian techs and involvement was rejected as much as possible from LCA development in various areas, which was silly imo, but it is as it is. They offered to RD 33 varient, help for Kaveri, joint radar developments and would have been the most logical choice to navalise the fighter, considering we will use Russian Migs and a Russian carrier too, but we thought either we can do it better, or that anything that we can get from the west is more useful, another point where LCA program went the wrong way.




this is nonsense by indian govt

why didn't we use rd 33 when we have complete tot??

bullshit of highest order..................are the russians so bad??


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> Not at all, it will be able to consolidate python 4 and derby inventory of the Harriers (mki might already have dibbs on them), it will be also able to consolidate vympel series missiles along with practice munitions, this also allows procurement of R27 stockpiles from ukraine for intermediate use until Astra family matures...Along with it I see no harm in qualifying KH series for N-LCA development.



Of course it is, since any integration of a new weapon means additional funding of tests too and that for weapons that would never be used by LCA. R27s will only be used at Mig 29 and Su 30 bases and were procured only as an intermediate addition to not buy more R77 an till Astra is available. LCA on the other side will not be placed at MKI or Mig 29 bases and IAF just like IN already decided to take Derby as the stop gap missile, till Astra is ready, which means integrating R27, R77 or even MICA is a total waste money, unless we want to offer LCA with these weapons for exports.
Kh35 will be integrated by IN for sure and most likely will be added to LCA MK1 for IAF as well, to offer anti ship role in the south too. However, that doesn't mean you have to integrate any weapon to LCA that is available in the IAF and the IN. Python V is still only a proposal from the Israelis, but it seems IAF and IN will stick to R73. R27, Kh29 or 59 have no use for LCA in Indian forces (not even Mig 29K carriers Kh59).


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Of course it is, since any integration of a new weapon means additional funding of tests too and that for weapons that would never be used by LCA. R27s will only be used at Mig 29 and Su 30 bases and were procured only as an intermediate addition to not buy more R77 an till Astra is available. LCA on the other side will not be placed at MKI or Mig 29 bases and IAF just like IN already decided to take Derby as the stop gap missile, till Astra is ready, which means integrating R27, R77 or even MICA is a total waste money, unless we want to offer LCA with these weapons for exports.
> Kh35 will be integrated by IN for sure and most likely will be added to LCA MK1 for IAF as well, to offer anti ship role in the south too. However, that doesn't mean you have to integrate any weapon to LCA that is available in the IAF and the IN. Python V is still only a proposal from the Israelis, but it seems IAF and IN will stick to R73. R27, Kh29 or 59 have no use for LCA in Indian forces (not even Mig 29K carriers Kh59).


I cannot comment in detail, but take this that every aircraft qualifies for for Kh31 is also qualifies for Kh59, Kh29 and a idl 90 variant, Same goes for R77 R27 and R73, if the com bus is compatible with r73, it has to be compatible to read device address for r77 (all but two variants) and r27's.

Now as far as the munitions itself is concerned, the potential to operate Rvv-Sd/PD/MD/AE is extremely valuable for an aircraft like LCA, as far as python 4 is concerned, as of today it stands as the most advanced all aspect aam and will remain a force to reckon with for this decade. Astra when develops will be compatable with LCA, so I see no harm in qualifying LCA for R series, KH series, as a matter of fact, there will be a stock pile of sea hawks in IN which post harrier will be available to N-LCA. So I am highly impressed with cross platform capabilities of LCA....

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## Water Car Engineer

self delete

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## Water Car Engineer

*






CC: Kedar Karmarkar




Here's to Tejas firing off an Air-Air missile at a simulated target

Click to expand...







CC: Kedar Karmarkar
*







LGB drop, hitting target is new.

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## Sri

Did they start testing with radar? did LCA get new radome?


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I cannot comment in detail, but take this that every aircraft qualifies for for Kh31 is also qualifies for Kh59, Kh29 and a idl 90 variant, Same goes for R77 R27 and R73, if the com bus is compatible with r73, it has to be compatible to read device address for r77 (all but two variants) and r27's.



Only because the software might be compatible, it doesn't mean the hardware is, nor that any weapon that on paper could be added, would be added. As I said, not a single of IAF's or INs Mig 29 can carry Kh59, although the software should be compatible, similarly IN's is not going to use R27 which only were procured by IAF.



sandy_3126 said:


> Now as far as the munitions itself is concerned, the potential to operate Rvv-Sd/PD/MD/AE is extremely valuable for an aircraft like LCA



Not really, when our forces have already decided to replace R77s with Astra and to use Derby as a stopgap solution on LCA and N-LCA. As I said, that makes R77 only important for exports and as long as exports are not considered yet (which I don't think is the right way), wasting money on the integration of R77 that could had been done for years if we wanted it and with the EL 2032, makes no sense.



sandy_3126 said:


> as far as python 4 is concerned, as of today it stands as the most advanced all aspect aam and will remain a force to reckon with for this decade.



True, but still our forces had not ordered it for any other fighter execpt of the Sea harrier possibly. LCA has integrated R73 and even the Jags are likely to get ASRAAM with the coming upgrade, which shows why it would be a waste of money again to integrate it to LCA for our forces, only because IN has a small stock pile of it. The cost for integration would never give enough value in return!


Realistically, LCA will be aimed on Indian ammos mainy! Astra, Sudarshan, Helina in first place, R73 since we widely use it and are happy with it's performance, Kh 35 most likely for commonality to the Mig 29UPG an Ks and personally I would love to see SPICE 2000 and 250 PGMs which would make LCA far more capable, but given it's minor operational importance in IAF and IN, it's not a necessity, because LCA has not the operational importance that JF 17 for example has in PAF! 


Sri said:


> Did they start testing with radar? did LCA get new radome?



Since they still seems to fire only R73, radar seems to remain the main problem and why MoD is blaming DRDO for the delays. The new nose would require proposals from foreign vendors, not sure if somebody had replied to ADA's tender, but shows how difficult it is when your design agency is not even capable of finding a solution for the nose on it's own. 
If HAL had done this project with a foreign partner and foreign systems from the start, like they had done it with Dhruv, LCA would had been a success today.

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## IND151

LCA back at Jamnagar for weapons trials | idrw.org


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Only because the software might be compatible, it doesn't mean the hardware is, nor that any weapon that on paper could be added, would be added. As I said, *not a single of IAF's or INs Mig 29 can carry Kh59*, although the software should be compatible, similarly IN's is not going to use R27 which only were procured by IAF.


That is because KH35 is superior weapon system, but that does not mean kinngbolt stock cannot be utilised any aircraft already capable to use it. And btw you are absolutely wrong when you say not a IN mig 29 "can" carry KH59, because Kh31/35 and Kh59 combus and datalink are the same Kh35. 




sancho said:


> Not really, when our forces have already decided to replace R77s with Astra and to use Derby as a stopgap solution on LCA and N-LCA. As I said, that makes R77 only important for exports and as long as exports are not considered yet (which I don't think is the right way), wasting money on the integration of R77 that could had been done for years if we wanted it and with the EL 2032, makes no sense.


First thing there is no huge amount of money that is needed for integration of r77 involved as you are referring to it. Next it leaves the option to rvv-sd and rvv-md, which are next gen all aspect missiles and are it's value in gold. The only reason that LCA posing with R77's dont come out every test is because they are incredibly expensive btw 2032 is already qualified for rvv ae. thats about it





sancho said:


> True, but still our forces had not ordered it for any other fighter execpt of the Sea harrier possibly. LCA has integrated R73 and even the Jags are likely to get ASRAAM with the coming upgrade, which shows why it would be a waste of money again to integrate it to LCA for our forces, only because IN has a small stock pile of it. The cost for integration would never give enough value in return!



cmon now... boss python 4 and mica both are already qualified on MKI, and what you call as a small stock pile is not as small as you might think. N-LCA should get the ability to use all of IN munitions available.... Along with that when push comes to shove, the N-lca's replenishing stock from any airbase in India should have full capability to utilise any available loadout...Cross functional capabilities is always a good thing imo and costs associated are negligible... there are other areas to cut costs....


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> That is because KH35 is superior weapon system, but that does not mean kinngbolt stock cannot be utilised any aircraft already capable to use it. And btw you are absolutely wrong when you say not a IN mig 29 "can" carry KH59, because Kh31/35 and Kh59 combus and datalink are the same Kh35.



Again, no Mig 29 can carry Kh59:

- MiG-29SMT, upgraded MiG-29UB aircraft

- MiG-29K/KUB

Only the MKI and if I'm not wrong the Mig 27 can, that's why it doesn't matter if the software is compatible, when the hardware isnt!




sandy_3126 said:


> First thing there is no huge amount of money that is needed for integration of r77 involved as you are referring to it. Next it leaves the option to rvv-sd and rvv-md, which are next gen all aspect missiles and are it's value in gold. The only reason that LCA posing with R77's dont come out every test is because they are incredibly expensive btw 2032 is already qualified for rvv ae. thats about it



You are obviously contradicting yourself here, but moreover, RVV-SD and MD are nor ordered by IAF, nor is it planned so far, since Astra is planned to be current R77/27 replacement. If at all, they might come with the early Pak Fa / FGFA, since Astra has no folding wings so far, but not for any other 4th gen fighter.



sandy_3126 said:


> cmon now... boss python 4 and mica both are already qualified on MKI, and what you call as a small stock pile is not as small as you might think.



How should that even be possible? Python missiles are not available in IAF, which makes it completelly useless to integrate it into MKI, MICA is not even available in India at all and you claim it's qualified?

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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Again, no Mig 29 can carry Kh59:
> 
> - MiG-29SMT, upgraded MiG-29UB aircraft
> 
> - MiG-29K/KUB
> 
> Only the MKI and if I'm not wrong the Mig 27 can, that's why it doesn't matter if the software is compatible, when the hardware isnt!



It's not just the software, it is the mil std combus that is compatable, datlink architecture is the same, plz check... your take is cannot carry, my is it can but it doesn't... comprendo



sancho said:


> You are obviously contradicting yourself here, *but moreover, RVV-SD and MD are nor ordered by IAF, nor is it planned so far*, since Astra is planned to be current R77/27 replacement. If at all, they might come with the early Pak Fa / FGFA, since Astra has no folding wings so far, but not for any other 4th gen fighter.


Wont comment on the highlighted line, take what you can from this



sancho said:


> How should that even be possible? Python missiles are not available in IAF, which makes it completelly useless to integrate it into MKI, MICA is not even available in India at all and you claim it's qualified?


correction for my earlier post:
My mistake , I mis spoke here about Mica, where I meant 530D all aspect... although it was done experimentally, thus not qualified (this was done after R27's were qualified on the mirage2000 when we had all the system tags for mirage)... 

P4 was thoroughly demonstrated by RADS in 2005, IAF had evaluated p4 in 2005 on a certain platform.... I wouldn't like to go into details of if P4 on MKI is qualified , But i will surely like LCA to be qualified for both P4 and p5... 


Please explain to me the disadvantage of cross platform compatibility of AAM in IAF. Explain why would LCA not benefit from the capability to support multiple aam ordinances?


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> Please explain to me the disadvantage of cross platform compatibility of AAM in IAF. Explain why would LCA not benefit from the capability to support multiple aam ordinances?



When it's IAF alone it can make sense, you claim about Python 4 which is not available in IAF, but only in low numbers for INs Harriers. So that is out of the question anyway and not all platforms can use anykind of missiles because of size and weight issuse. The M2Ks for example can't use any other missile than MICA on their fuselage stations, which then would occupy a heavy station for no use. And most of all, you can not operate any kind of fighter on all airbases in India, that's why weapons and spares will be located at a specific area, to ease operations. Not to mention that you would need the source codes of any missile to integrate it to different radars and systems, which is a whole lot of work with a lot of costs, for a minium of value if the weapon is not procured in high numbers.
IAF even purposly put most of the Mig 29s together to ease operations, although they use the same weapons like most Russian fighters, similarly all M2Ks are used at the same airbase and won't be mixed either.
As I said, IAF has already decided for Astra and Derby to replace Russian missiles, which makes integration of R77 to LCA pointless unless it is aimed on exports and again, if they wanted that, they had done it years ago and had already made launch tests, which obviously would have been publicised for PR reasons, but as you admited, that would be too costly unless you intend to use it!


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> When it's IAF alone it can make sense, you claim about Python 4 which is not available in IAF, but only in low numbers for INs Harriers. So that is out of the question anyway and not all platforms can use anykind of missiles because of size and weight issuse. The M2Ks for example can't use any other missile than MICA on their fuselage stations, which then would occupy a heavy station for no use. And most of all, you can not operate any kind of fighter on all airbases in India, that's why weapons and spares will be located at a specific area, to ease operations. Not to mention that you would need the source codes of any missile to integrate it to different radars and systems, which is a whole lot of work with a lot of costs, for a minium of value if the weapon is not procured in high numbers.
> IAF even purposly put most of the Mig 29s together to ease operations, although they use the same weapons like most Russian fighters, similarly all M2Ks are used at the same airbase and won't be mixed either.
> As I said, IAF has already decided for Astra and Derby to replace Russian missiles, which makes integration of R77 to LCA pointless unless it is aimed on exports and again, if they wanted that, they had done it years ago and had already made launch tests, which obviously would have been publicised for PR reasons, but as you admited, that would be too costly unless you intend to use it!


I would still prefer, RVV SD (FGFA, with cross compatibility for MKI's), P5 (which i feel has a potential in IAF) and Astra II (l/mraam) be operational across the board (LCA, Mki, mig29,), because it calls for adversaries to have unknown factors for utilize softkill measure.... rest is just utilization of munitions, for ASM, i would even like the the older sea eagles operational on all aircrafts capable of Maritime strike.

RVV-AE's integration might not be paramount as I have always felt that IAF never really believed it was fully matured platform, due to it's seeker, but SD/MD will be a different game. If the radar can track the targets as far as the practical deployment range for a missile like SD, then LCA will benefit from it. When i said about KH35, Kh31, Kh29, Kh59, and it's variants for ASR, it just doesn't refer to the N-LCA but also for IAF if it wants to have the flexibility to provide maritime strike capability with the LCA, it provides additional versatility and develops the export potential for the LCA Mk2+'s future.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> rest is just utilization of munitions, for ASM, i would even like the the older sea eagles operational on all aircrafts capable of Maritime strike.



Which have no life left either and why HARPOON was procured. LCA will get Kh35, because of IN, but won't integrate any other missile that it doesn't need, nobody will pay for that, for good reasons.



sandy_3126 said:


> When i said about KH35, Kh31, Kh29, Kh59, and it's variants for ASR, it just doesn't refer to the N-LCA but also for IAF if it wants to have the flexibility to provide maritime strike capability with the LCA,



Just that Kh 29 and 59 are no weapons for the anti ship role, nor does IAF use the Kh 31 in that role. You also have to consider that IAF and IN will have far more capable fighters to do the primary roles. Using LCA for SEAD, or heavy strikes will not going to happen and even anti ship roles are not really likely. Air policing and CAS, that's what it was meant to do and what Indian forces need it for, while it might be able to do more in smaller air forces. So don't expect full integration of whatever weapon or pods to them.


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## sancho

@Oscar



> *Colombia seeks new fighter purchase*
> 
> As its government and FARC rebel movement make progress towards ending more than 40 years of conflict, Colombia’s air force is planning to bolster its combat capabilities, with the purchase of an additional squadron of fighter aircraft.
> Air force officials are now completing a study into potential candidates for the requirement, which air operations commander Brig Gen Eduardo Bueno Vargas says is likely to total 18 aircraft. To potentially include a mix of used and new-build airframes, these would be operated in concert with the service’s current Israel Aerospace Industries Kfir C10 strike platforms, he says.
> Multiple types have been included in a potential candidate list, with Vargas identifying the Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Mirage 2000, Lockheed Martin F-16 and Sukhoi Su-30 as among a range of possible competitors...


Colombia seeks new fighter purchase


The perfect chance to offer LCA MK1 with Israel touch and marketed by them. If I'm not wrong the Kfir's already use EL 2032 and Dash HMSs, just like Griffin LGBs and Litening LDPs. The commonality and the low procurement /operating costs, coupled with the Israeli support could provide them even with 2 x squads of new fighters, instead of a mix of new and 2nd hand in 1 x squad.
That's why I'm saying, the focus of IAF/IN on LCA MK2 should not stop HAL to market the MK1 to export countries, if possible with Israeli help!


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## Sri

Latest News Video : India`s 1st LCA `Tejas` joins IAF 

My hindi is not so good ( even though I did my schooling in Delhi), Does this mean that IOC2 is Done?


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## rockstarIN

We do not get multi role bombers into our air force...unlike....


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## thesolar65

Sri said:


> Latest News Video : India`s 1st LCA `Tejas` joins IAF
> 
> My hindi is not so good ( even though I did my schooling in Delhi), Does this mean that IOC2 is Done?



I doubt it. Because without fanfare and PM or Defence minister being present and other news Channel not reporting, this is unlikely!!

I also saw the clipping. It says it will be into IAF after clearing IOC2.

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## Indischer

Sri said:


> Latest News Video : India`s 1st LCA `Tejas` joins IAF
> 
> My hindi is not so good ( even though I did my schooling in Delhi), Does this mean that IOC2 is Done?



Thank Heavens that your Hindi isn't good, Buddy! I cringed so bad at the way that stupid hostess spoke, I fear I might have permanently damaged my face!

Btw, I think from what she spoke towards the end of that vid, this was taken during IOC-1.

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## Sri

Well I got confused with this sentence -- it says vayu adhyaksh aur raksha mantri tejas ko aaj vayu sena me shamil karenge... Which means I think means getting inducted today  I think you are right the stupid anchor had no clue what she is talking about.


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## Storm Force

Umair.

Dont see you pakistan laughing at the

indengious Arihant nuke sub
indengious Vikrant carriers
indigous kolkata class destroyers or the Shilvaik frigates
indengious Akash SAMS
INDENGIOUS indian spy satalites
indengious Dhruv helicopters
indengious ICBM
iNDENGIOUS MARS space PROGRAMME

Do you want me to go on and on my friend from pakistan.

Do something yourselves FIRST dont rely on the chinease to carry you for ever



> this is 407th page of this Last Chance Aircraft but is still not inducted


Umair.

Dont see you pakistan laughing at the

indengious Arihant nuke sub
indengious Vikrant carriers
indigous kolkata class destroyers or the Shilvaik frigates
indengious Akash SAMS
INDENGIOUS indian spy satalites
indengious Dhruv helicopters
indengious ICBM
iNDENGIOUS MARS space PROGRAMME

Do you want me to go on and on my friend from pakistan.

Do something yourselves FIRST dont rely on the chinease to carry you for ever

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## Black Widow

Storm Force said:


> Umair.
> 
> Dont see you pakistan laughing at the
> 
> indengious Arihant nuke sub
> indengious Vikrant carriers
> indigous kolkata class destroyers or the Shilvaik frigates
> indengious Akash SAMS
> INDENGIOUS indian spy satalites
> indengious Dhruv helicopters
> indengious ICBM
> iNDENGIOUS MARS space PROGRAMME
> 
> Do you want me to go on and on my friend from pakistan.
> 
> Do something yourselves FIRST dont rely on the chinease to carry you for ever




In software there is a term "Viral".. 

If you use free software/codes to develop your product, entire project become free.. This is why strictly ask my engineers not to use opensource software or code..

For Pakistani and Chinese same apply to All Indian defense products. If you Talk about Dhruv they will call it French design, If u talk of Tejas they will talk about Its American engine..

The solution: Ignore trolls..

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> The solution: Ignore trolls..



Exactly, simply stick to topic!


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## he-man

any status on trials??

will the december deadline be honoured??


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## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> any status on trials??
> 
> will the december deadline be honoured??


The The tentative date is 20th dec. Wait till that day.


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## trident2010

This LCA project is like a chronic disease, threat one symptom, other comes up. Hope this time they manage to sort all the major problems.


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## HariPrasad

Storm Force said:


> Umair.
> Dont see you pakistan laughing at the
> indengious Arihant nuke sub
> indengious Vikrant carriers
> indigous kolkata class destroyers or the Shilvaik frigates
> indengious Akash SAMS
> INDENGIOUS indian spy satalites
> indengious Dhruv helicopters
> indengious ICBM
> iNDENGIOUS MARS space PROGRAMME
> Do you want me to go on and on my friend from pakistan.
> Do something yourselves FIRST dont rely on the chinease to carry you for ever




This is called "khisiyani Billi Khambha noche". You can not dream of such stuff. You can only envy. Laughing at high technology indian products is your manifestation of inferiority complex of not able to generate something comparable.



he-man said:


> am not sure but drdo is trying to develop indigenous aesa too..............so




According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE’s LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched. Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India’s Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.


http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091218262510200.htm&date=fl2625/&prd=fline&

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## HariPrasad

trident2010 said:


> This LCA project is like a chronic disease, threat one symptom, other comes up. Hope this time they manage to sort all the major problems.




It is because you expect too much from 1st of its kind aircraft. When it will come It will not be less than Grippen C/D. It will give Indian airforce a capability to handle everything in our neighborhood except SU30 MKK. With Mk2 you will be able to dare anything in our our neighborhood Except Su 30 MKK.


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## Rashid Mahmood

How many operational LCA squadrons are there in the IAF..?


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## kaykay

Rashid Mahmood said:


> How many operational LCA squadrons are there in the IAF..?


There's no operational squadron as of now. But production of aircrafts have been started as first squadron will be formed just after 25 December. So we are around 1 month away from first squadron.


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## HariPrasad

Rashid Mahmood said:


> How many operational LCA squadrons are there in the IAF..?




It will have Operational squadron after 2014 once it receives FOC.


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## HariPrasad

Avionics and other electronics of Tejas are getting compact day by day. This is going to decrease marginal weight but releases a lots of space which will give a room to readjust (If required) LRUs and release the space for fuel capacity increase. We can hope that GE 404 IN6 will improve to generate some more power by than. This will give aircraft a good amount of performance improvement in its first upgrade in a decade or so.



he-man said:


> any status on trials??
> 
> will the december deadline be honoured??




In his interview with Bharat Kavach, Avinash chander said the LCA has completed 2400 flight and 50 to 60 flights are left to achieve IOC 2 by 2013 end.

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## sancho

HariPrasad said:


> According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE’s LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched. Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India’s Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.
> 
> 
> http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091218262510200.htm&date=fl2625/&prd=fline&



That article is from 2009 if I'm not wrong and since then nothing much has happend, not even wrt their puls doppler MMR developments, so don't expect too much from DRDO/LRDE promises.


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## kaykay

HariPrasad said:


> It will have Operational squadron after 2014 once it receives FOC.


No. First sqd will come just after IOC-2 i.e early next year.


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## GORKHALI

LCA Flight test update:

From :
LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)

To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,*LSP2-287*,PV5-36,*LSP3-171*,*LSP4-99*,*LSP5-236*,*LSP7-70*,NP1-5,LSP8-62)

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## HariPrasad

kaykay said:


> No. First sqd will come just after IOC-2 i.e early next year.




Ok I am talking about Sqd Strength. Sqd formation may take place early as you said.

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## sudhir007

GORKHALI said:


> LCA Flight test update:
> 
> From :
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)
> 
> To:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,*LSP2-287*,PV5-36,*LSP3-171*,*LSP4-99*,*LSP5-236*,*LSP7-70*,NP1-5,LSP8-62)


oh! I miss it


----------



## HariPrasad

GORKHALI said:


> LCA Flight test update:
> 
> From :
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)
> 
> To:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,*LSP2-287*,PV5-36,*LSP3-171*,*LSP4-99*,*LSP5-236*,*LSP7-70*,NP1-5,LSP8-62)




Hi guys,
Can you see that latest LSP are put to the test more often that old LSP. It means they are checking features which were incorporated later. Look at LSP 8 test. It is catching up with LSP 7 flew one year early.

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## neehar

not sure weather this vedio was posted.a documentary by NATGEO on tejas

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## sudhir007

http://nal.res.in/pdf/dir-rep.pdf

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## he-man

any progress?


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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> any progress?




Wake penetration trials are over.


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## he-man

HariPrasad said:


> Wake penetration trials are over.


wtf is this thing??
wake penetration??


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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> wtf is this thing??



What is this?


----------



## he-man

HariPrasad said:


> What is this?


wtf=what the f uck

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## rockstarIN

HariPrasad said:


> Wake penetration trials are over.



It isi cleared in 2011 itself.


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## trident2010

How much time will it take to fully induct LCA after IOC-2?


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## he-man

trident2010 said:


> How much time will it take to fully induct LCA after IOC-2?



One simply does not

Know about HAL plans so easily

lol


----------



## trident2010

he-man said:


> One simply does not
> 
> Know about HAL plans so easily
> 
> lol


 Thats true ..lolz


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## thesolar65

he-man said:


> wtf is this thing??
> wake penetration??



It means penetrate while awake....

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight test update:

From :
LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,LSP3-171,LSP4-99,LSP5-236,LSP7-70,NP1-5,LSP8-62)


To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2427 Test Flights Successfully. (03-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-378*,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,*LSP3-173*,*LSP4-101*,LSP5-236,*LSP7-72*,*NP1-6*,LSP8-62)

So the Naval Version start fly again


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## Black Widow

sudhir007 said:


> LCA Flight test update:
> 
> From :
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,LSP3-171,LSP4-99,LSP5-236,LSP7-70,NP1-5,LSP8-62)
> 
> 
> To:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2427 Test Flights Successfully. (03-Dec-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-378*,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,*LSP3-173*,*LSP4-101*,LSP5-236,*LSP7-72*,*NP1-6*,LSP8-62)
> 
> *So the Naval Version start fly again*




Good now they understand, No talk only work..


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## HariPrasad

Black Widow said:


> Good now they understand, No talk only work..




Np 1 took another flight. Good one.


he-man said:


> wtf=what the f uck



Some write up from Net about Wake penetration.


The effects on the structural design of military and civil aircraft caused by dynamic loads resulting from the flight through high wake velocities which are generated by different types of aircraft have not been sufficiently investigated in the past. Military aircraft might experience this impact during formation or squadron flight or during combat manoeuvres. Civil aircraft could be affected during start and cruise through wakes from other aircraft.

Passing through the wake the safety of the aircraft might be critical by wrong guidance, uncontrolled movements or by induced dynamic loads which might cause failure of structure or structural fatigue.

The design of aircraft structure accounting for wakes is not state of the art. The standard design includes dynamic loads from PSD gust analysis and buffet or tuned gust analysis, where the intensities of the gust velocities are defined by military or civil specifications and buffet intensities are defined from wind tunnel test results (Ref. 1).

Predictions by analysis of wake velocity fields of different aircraft indicate however that the known maximum gust velocities are exceeded and the time history of the velocities experienced by the affected aircraft during penetration is different for example to the 1-cos gust in the discrete analysis. Moreover flight test results of the dynamic aircraft response during wake penetration produced evidence for its criticality in several flight regimes.

This contribution concentrates on military aircraft and demonstrates several examples of predicted critical wake fields and results from calculated dynamic response during different kind of penetration. Also examples from flight dynamic responses are discussed.

Finally some recommendations for future research and activities are given which should lead to a wake and wake penetration specification for military and civil aircraft required for future structural design and clearance.


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## trident2010

Any new pics of Tejas?


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## indiatester

sudhir007 said:


> LCA Flight test update:
> 
> From :
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,LSP3-171,LSP4-99,LSP5-236,LSP7-70,NP1-5,LSP8-62)
> 
> 
> To:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2427 Test Flights Successfully. (03-Dec-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-378*,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,*LSP3-173*,*LSP4-101*,LSP5-236,*LSP7-72*,*NP1-6*,LSP8-62)
> 
> So the Naval Version start fly again


In which aircraft was the EW suite being integrated? I thought some PV series. It it was PV3, then this is good news.


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## rockstarIN

indiatester said:


> In which aircraft was the EW suite being integrated? I thought some PV series. It it was PV3, then this is good news.


PV -2 I believe. I'm also waiting to see the same flying..

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## HariPrasad

Any news of LSP6?

Any video of LSP8? LSP8 seems to have a lots of redesigns. Air intakes are Huge. It must have given LSP8 a batter performance.

There was a news that some design change resulted in some performance improvement. Anybody has any idea?


----------



## Sri

LSP 5 or LSP4 





LSP8





I do not think there are any visible differences, Can any one find any?


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## Echo_419

Sri said:


> LSP 5 or LSP4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LSP8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think there are any visible differences, Can any one find any?



Kya baat Karaheo yaar 
LSP-5 is painted in grey while LSP-8 in yellow

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## adwityagrata

Sri said:


> LSP 5 or LSP4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LSP8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think there are any visible differences, Can any one find any?



The Air Intakes appears bigger in the yellow one. could be due to the paint difference.


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## shree835

"The production work has already started at full throttle. Currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent rolling out of the first lot of these indigenously built LCAs by middle of next year," Chander told TOI. "The production rate, I believe, is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.


Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has been set as 2013 end, Chander said he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by end of September. "Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern light combat aircraft would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel tracks to save time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given," said the DRDO chief. For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of air staff.

Engines manufactured by US-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract in 2010. After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414) for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India after obtaining a licence under a transfer of technology agreement. HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.


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## kurup

Echo_419 said:


> Kya baat Karaheo yaar
> LSP-5 is painted in grey while LSP-8 in yellow



Also LSP-5 is carrying ordnance while LSP-8 not ....

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## indiatester

shree835 said:


> "The production work has already started at full throttle. Currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent rolling out of the first lot of these indigenously built LCAs by middle of next year," Chander told TOI. "The production rate, I believe, is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.
> 
> 
> Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has been set as 2013 end, Chander said *he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by end of September*. "Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern light combat aircraft would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel tracks to save time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given," said the DRDO chief. For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of air staff.
> 
> Engines manufactured by US-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract in 2010. After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414) for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India after obtaining a licence under a transfer of technology agreement. HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.



September is done. No news yet of IOC-2.
I see two things going wrong.
1) DRDO/ADA/HAL has obviously delayed the hell out of this project and is not complete yet.
2) IAF without taking what is available and improving it, is sitting for that perfect machine. When you have a donkey, use it till you get something else.


----------



## kaykay

shree835 said:


> "The production work has already started at full throttle. Currently there are no bottlenecks to prevent rolling out of the first lot of these indigenously built LCAs by middle of next year," Chander told TOI. "The production rate, I believe, is around 16-20 per year and huge orders would assist in good production rates," he said.
> 
> 
> Although the time frame for getting the initial operational clearance-2 for Tejas has been set as 2013 end, Chander said he was confident that the aircraft will be ready for the clearance by end of September. "Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for our first modern light combat aircraft would follow soon thereafter. Meanwhile, these two processes can go on parallel tracks to save time in delivery and induction once the IOC-2 and FOC are given," said the DRDO chief. For obtaining IOC-2, clearance has to be given at three different levels, including one from the defence minister and another from the chief of air staff.
> 
> Engines manufactured by US-based General Electric Aviation would be powering these indigenously manufactured LCAs after the global giant won the contract in 2010. After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414) for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India after obtaining a licence under a transfer of technology agreement. HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.


This is a 'september 1st' news. Why are you posting this now dude?? It can mislead people.



indiatester said:


> September is done. No news yet of IOC-2.
> I see two things going wrong.
> 1) DRDO/ADA/HAL has obviously delayed the hell out of this project and is not complete yet.
> 2) IAF without taking what is available and improving it, is sitting for that perfect machine. When you have a donkey, use it till you get something else.


Old news dude. It wast news from TOI posted on 1st september.


----------



## indiatester

kaykay said:


> Old news dude. It wast news from TOI posted on 1st september.


I do remember that news. BTW, today I saw one Tejas take off(atleast I think it was Tejas)

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## Echo_419

indiatester said:


> September is done. No news yet of IOC-2.
> I see two things going wrong.
> 1) DRDO/ADA/HAL has obviously delayed the hell out of this project and is not complete yet.
> 2) IAF without taking what is available and improving it, is sitting for that perfect machine. When you have a donkey, use it till you get something else.



I think IAF is also wrong induct the thing first & then improve it 
That's what US did with the F-16s 
Itne nakhre achi baat nahi hai

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## shree835

kaykay said:


> This is a 'september 1st' news. Why are you posting this now dude?? It can mislead people.
> 
> 
> Old news dude. It wast news from TOI posted on 1st september.



I was Just waiting for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by this month end.


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## Superboy

I think they are pushing to make Tejas ready to compete with Rafale perhaps? A decision on Rafale could be possible next year.


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## Indischer

kurup said:


> Also LSP-5 is carrying ordnance while LSP-8 not ....



LSP -5 is carrying *drop tanks* too while LSP -8 isn't 



shree835 said:


> I was Just waiting for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by this month end.



Isn't it IOC-2 that is scheduled by the end of this month? As far as I know, FOC will come much later.


----------



## faithfulguy

Superboy said:


> I think they are pushing to make Tejas ready to compete with Rafale perhaps? A decision on Rafale could be possible next year.



It would be like taking the body of Mirage 2000 and put some new sensors and avionics on it to compete with Rafale.

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## HariPrasad

Sri said:


> LSP 5 or LSP4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LSP8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think there are any visible differences, Can any one find any?




Look at the air intake of LSP 8. i believe that Air intake design issue is resolved.



Echo_419 said:


> LSP-5 is painted in grey while LSP-8 in yellow




It is a primer and not Paint.



kurup said:


> Also LSP-5 is carrying ordnance while LSP-8 not ....


Can anybody Gauze the weight of Payload on LSP 4-5.



adwityagrata said:


> The Air Intakes appears bigger in the yellow one. could be due to the paint difference.


 Nope,

They are really bigger.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> @Oscar
> 
> 
> Colombia seeks new fighter purchase
> 
> 
> The perfect chance to offer LCA MK1 with Israel touch and marketed by them. If I'm not wrong the Kfir's already use EL 2032 and Dash HMSs, just like Griffin LGBs and Litening LDPs. The commonality and the low procurement /operating costs, coupled with the Israeli support could provide them even with 2 x squads of new fighters, instead of a mix of new and 2nd hand in 1 x squad.
> That's why I'm saying, the focus of IAF/IN on LCA MK2 should not stop HAL to market the MK1 to export countries, if possible with Israeli help!



I think the focus should be on export primarily. The IAF/IN are getting fighters in either case from other sources as well. An export will surely boost the confidence of the intended primary operators as well.


----------



## HariPrasad

shree835 said:


> I was Just waiting for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by this month end.



FOC Next year. IOC 2 Current month.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> I think the focus should be on export primarily. The IAF/IN are getting fighters in either case from other sources as well. An export will surely boost the confidence of the intended primary operators as well.



Looking only on export is not possible, since the forces have important requirements as well and there must be cost-effective indigenous solutions too, be it LCA or an AMCA, just not both. From todays point of view on threat perceptions and the future potential of LCA beyond 2020, AMCA instead of LCA would make sense, but for the industrial growth LCA is simply too important to not finish it. Not to mention that ADA/DRDO maybe even HAL doesn't really look on commonality, rather than to develop everything on their own and that will delay any AMCA project too.
So all in all, LCA remains to be important, but exports are important and that requires better marketing!


----------



## sathya

Tejas fires missile, hits target | idrw.org

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## shree835

*AK Antony to induct LCA into Air Force on December 20*

NEW DELHI: After a delay of over two decades and several cost overruns, indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be inducted in the IAF later this month in Bangalore. 

The under development aircraft achieved another significant milestone today with the launching of an infrared seeking air-to-air missile that hit the target with precision and destroyed the target, a DRDO statement said. 

The Initial Operational Clearance-II of the aircraft will be done on December 20 at its home-base in Bangalore after which it will be inducted into the IAF by Defence Minister AK Antony, Defence officials said here. 

The aircraft will be the LCA Mark 1 and 40 of them will be inducted by the IAF and the DRDO and HAL will continue to make improvements in it and that more powerful and capable version would be inducted later in the force, they said. 

The IAF, if everything moves ahead as per the present plans, will have a total of seven squadrons of such aircraft which comes to about 140 aircraft. 

The aircraft project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore, the project will be completed exactly 30 years after it was launched at an approximate overall cost of around Rs 25,000 crore. 

Even after its induction into the IAF, the aircraft will undergo several tests in the force and will have to attain the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for getting ready for full operational deployment. 

Meanwhile, the missile firing test demonstrated the required parameters and was conducted off the coast of Goa in Arabian Sea, DRDO said. 

DRDO chief Avinash Chander congratulated the missile testing team, saying that with "this launch of missile from Tejas and successfully hitting the target in the first shot, we have demonstrated the total weapon system capability of LCA Tejas." 

The LCA has been undergoing weapon release flight tests, for its operational clearance and eliminated an aerial target towed by the pilotless target aircraft Lakshya using its infrared seeker air-to-air missile. 

AK Antony to induct LCA into Air Force on December 20 - The Economic Times

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## marcos98

Good news!!

Does anybody know if an official designation is in order a la HF-24 Marut .


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## gslv mk3

faithfulguy said:


> It would be like taking the body of Mirage 2000 and put some new sensors and avionics on it to compete with Rafale.



Yes making aircraft are as simple as that,BTW from where did you get body of mirage = body of LCA argument?

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Looking only on export is not possible, since the forces have important requirements as well and there must be cost-effective indigenous solutions too, be it LCA or an AMCA, just not both. From todays point of view on threat perceptions and the future potential of LCA beyond 2020, AMCA instead of LCA would make sense, but for the industrial growth LCA is simply too important to not finish it. Not to mention that ADA/DRDO maybe even HAL doesn't really look on commonality, rather than to develop everything on their own and that will delay any AMCA project too.
> So all in all, LCA remains to be important, but exports are important and that requires better marketing!



Dont you think having couple of 5th generation fighter would be more headache to maintain?.. i guess we are not US or China.. we have a very limited budget.. and with budget cuts going on... i dont see AMCA an option in future.... PAK-FA would be a single solution and it is equal to 180+ .. may be Tejas can be fine tuned like silent eagle..


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## SR-91

kingdurgaking said:


> Dont you think having couple of 5th generation fighter would be more headache to maintain?.. i guess we are not US or China.. we have a very limited budget.. and with budget cuts going on... i dont see AMCA an option in future.... PAK-FA would be a single solution and it is equal to 180+ .. may be Tejas can be fine tuned like silent eagle..





Expect MK-3, after the induction of MK-2.

Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Dont you think having couple of 5th generation fighter would be more headache to maintain?.. i guess we are not US or China.. we have a very limited budget.. and with budget cuts going on... i dont see AMCA an option in future.... PAK-FA would be a single solution and it is equal to 180+ ..



Compared to what? To any 4th gen fighter, yes, but compared to a heavy class twin engined stealth FGFA? The DRDO/ADA AMCA is definitely no good option, since it needs too long and would be just another twin engine fighter. But if they change the design and work together with HAL, instead of against them and FGFA, they could benefit from FGFA and develop a smaller single engine stealth fighter. The common systems would not only reduce costs, but ease developments, which then would justify a switch from LCA to AMCA.



kingdurgaking said:


> may be Tejas can be fine tuned like silent eagle..



Not possible, since it is a light class fighter that offers too many size or weight restrictions. The addition of CFTs with internal weapon bays, is not possible because of the gear bays that are extracting outwards. Just like the centerline station has lenght and width restrictions, which makes a weapon pod like the Silent Hornet has not possible too. So without a major re-design, you can't make a light class fighter stealthy (the Rafale or the MKI offer more potential in that regard), which would make a newly designed stealth fighter more logical.



SR-91 said:


> Expect MK-3, after the induction of MK-2.
> 
> Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN



Just wishful thinking of DRDO, not more. They claimed LCA would get 5th generation capabilities only because there is a possibility to add modern touch displays in future. Just a distraction from their failures.

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## sancho

> *Decks cleared for IOC-2 on Dec 20 in Bangalore | Most test points cleared ahead of D-Day: DRDO | SP plans on track: HAL *
> 
> India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas cleared a critical test point on Saturday, for its much-awaited Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2), by firing an infrared (IR) seeking air-to-air R-73 E missile. The missile destroyed a target being towed by a pilotless target aircraft Lakshya, launched by an Indian Navy ship. The test was conducted off the coast of Goa and the flight was piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna (retd), a Test pilot working with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).
> *It was for the first time the Tejas proved its air defence role by firing a missile at a target using an onboard fire control radar, while the earlier tests were done using a helmet-mounted display (HMD) system. The test also paved the way for the IOC-2 declaration, now confirmed to be held in Bangalore on December 20.* Defence Minister A K Antony will lead a power-packed delegation for the December 20 event, for which the preparations have already begun at the Old HAL airport...
> ...*While the programme has to go some more distance before the fighters get inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF), the onus post-IOC-2 will shift towards HAL for rolling out the production version aircraft.* Hindustan Aeronautics Limited chairman R K Tyagi said with the R-73 E missile firing, Tejas has proven some of its independent capabilities. “Our aim now is to aid IAF quickly with the series production (SP) aircraft so that the squadron formation takes place as planned...
> 
> ...“*There has been tremendous pressure on the Tejas team with the MoD monitoring the progress on a daily basis. The defence minister was personally tracking the progress of the missile firing*, which was delayed by a couple of weeks owing to logistical reasons,” the official said. The missile firing was originally planned at Jamnagar and later shifted to Goa.



Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Decks cleared for IOC-2 on Dec 20 in Bangalore | Most test points cleared ahead of D-Day: DRDO | SP plans on track: HAL


Well done Mr Antony, the pressure worked as it seems!

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## Sri

If they can put the same kind of pressure till End of 2014 for FOC then we can expect some good progress. Anyway congrats to ADA and IAF.


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## SR-91

sancho said:


> Just wishful thinking of DRDO, not more. They claimed LCA would get 5th generation capabilities only because there is a possibility to add modern touch displays in future. Just a distraction from their failures.




A major re-design of LCA MK-2 would be a lot easier than designing a whole new plane. IMO, IAF will go for all three categories of Heavy, Mid and Light weight aircraft and if LCA is proven a success. Then a re-design of lca is possible,not sure how they would overcome weapons bay issue. Not to mention, higher use of composites,from the current use of 45% to over 70% and RAM coatings will def. help in bring down the RCS. 

What are your thoughts?


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## shree835

Oscar said:


> I think the focus should be on export primarily. The IAF/IN are getting fighters in either case from other sources as well. An export will surely boost the confidence of the intended primary operators as well.


Your statement is correct , but requirement list of IAF and IN is huge...we need to full fill it first....


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Compared to what? To any 4th gen fighter, yes, but compared to a heavy class twin engined stealth FGFA? The DRDO/ADA AMCA is definitely no good option, since it needs too long and would be just another twin engine fighter. But if they change the design and work together with HAL, instead of against them and FGFA, they could benefit from FGFA and develop a smaller single engine stealth fighter. The common systems would not only reduce costs, but ease developments, which then would justify a switch from LCA to AMCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Not possible, since it is a light class fighter that offers too many size or weight restrictions. The addition of CFTs with internal weapon bays, is not possible because of the gear bays that are extracting outwards. Just like the centerline station has lenght and width restrictions, which makes a weapon pod like the Silent Hornet has not possible too. So without a major re-design, you can't make a light class fighter stealthy (the Rafale or the MKI offer more potential in that regard), which would make a newly designed stealth fighter more logical.
> 
> 
> 
> Just wishful thinking of DRDO, not more. They claimed LCA would get 5th generation capabilities only because there is a possibility to add modern touch displays in future. Just a distraction from their failures.


yes it would be a major re design of tejas... what do you think ?? am i adding small changes to make it silent eagle.. this is as good as what has happened to F-15.. this would be more valuable than AMCA... if IAF is planning to buy medium twin engine 5th generation fighter then looking at AMCA and developing subsystem is fine... else i think it is waste of resource... instead we need to incorporate the same in tejas..



SR-91 said:


> Expect MK-3, after the induction of MK-2.
> 
> Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN



This will be something like silent eagle.. not a full fledged stealth fighter


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## shree835

If the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has taken decades for completion, it is now in a record-breaking sprint to the finish line. The Tejas has flown an unprecedented 450 test flights this year towards a splashy ceremony in Bangalore scheduled for December 20, where Defence Minister A K Antony will preside over its induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

That landmark event will be the award of the Tejas' Initial Operational Certificate (IOC), which will allow the country's first indigenous modern fighter to be flown by regular pilots of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The first Tejas squadron (18-20 fighters) will be based at Sulur, near Coimbatore.

So far, only highly qualified test pilots of the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) in Bangalore have flown the Tejas. In the 2,400 test flights since it took to the air in 2001, the NFTC has incrementally flown the Tejas higher, faster and carried out increasingly difficult manoeuvres and weapon firings to test it meets the IAF's requirements.

On Saturday, Group Captain Suneet Verma, a veteran NFTC test pilot, fired an air-to-air missile from the Tejas at an airborne target off the Goa coast, striking the target and taking the Tejas a step closer towards IOC.

While awarding the IOC, Antony will ceremonially hand over to the IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, the fighter's "Release to Service Document (RSD)", which specifies the capabilities the Tejas has already demonstrated during flight testing.

This includes aerodynamic capabilities like speed, acceleration, climb rate and angle of attack; and also the basic weapons operations already tested on the Tejas, and the fighter's proven radar and sensor capabilities. The Tejas flight-testing programme has been a prolonged and painstaking exercise, since this is India's first modern fighter. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) - a special purpose vehicle of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), set up to manage the Tejas programme - worried that a crash during flight-testing might be a fatal blow to the project itself, and so has handled flight testing cautiously, taking twice the time that experienced countries do.

Once the IOC is awarded, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will build the IAF's first 20 Tejas fighters on a brand new production line in Bangalore. HAL has told Business Standard that it aims to roll out the first two fighters by March 2014, deliver eight fighters by end-2014, and then enhance the production line's capability to 16 fighters a year.

So far, the IAF has committed to just 40 Tejas fighters. Of these, 20 will be built to IOC standards, and the next 20 ordered when Final Operation Clearance (FOC) is obtained. The defence minister has ordered the DRDO to ensure the FOC is not delayed beyond end-2014.

Avinash Chander, the DRDO chief, tells Business Standard the FOC will involve firing a range of different weapons, including missiles and bombs, and testing the fighter for mid-air refuelling.

"With the IAF now enthused about the Tejas, and participating actively in the project, we will surely obtain FOC next year. We could not have completed over 450 test flights this year without close cooperation between the IAF, ADA and HAL," says Chander.

After obtaining FOC for the Tejas, ADA will start work on the Tejas Mark II. The key change is replacing the General Electric F-404 engine that powers the Mark I with the larger, more powerful GE F-414 engine. This will involve re-engineering the Mark I to fit in the bulkier F-414, a technological challenge for ADA.

ADA has also briefed Business Standard that the Tejas Mark II would have more fuel capacity for added range; a retractable mid-air refuelling system; a DRDO-built Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar; world beating air-to-air missiles; an on-board oxygen-generating system, and a state-of-the-art Electronic Warfare suite to confuse enemy radars and sensors. "Eventually, the IAF is very likely to have at least 200 Tejas fighters in its fleet," says Chander.

Tejas LCA sprints towards IAF's frontline squadron | Business Standard


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## anup

If the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has taken decades for completion, it is now in a record-breaking sprint to the finish line. The Tejas has flown an unprecedented 450 test flights this year towards a splashy ceremony in Bangalore scheduled for December 20, where Defence Minister A K Antony will preside over its induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

That landmark event will be the award of the Tejas’ Initial Operational Certificate (IOC), which will allow the country’s first indigenous modern fighter to be flown by regular pilots of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The first Tejas squadron (18-20 fighters) will be based at Sulur, near Coimbatore.

So far, only highly qualified test pilots of the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) in Bangalore have flown the Tejas. In the 2,400 test flights since it took to the air in 2001, the NFTC has incrementally flown the Tejas higher, faster and carried out increasingly difficult manoeuvres and weapon firings to test it meets the IAF’s requirements.

On Saturday, Group Captain Suneet Verma, a veteran NFTC test pilot, fired an air-to-air missile from the Tejas at an airborne target off the Goa coast, striking the target and taking the Tejas a step closer towards IOC.

While awarding the IOC, Antony will ceremonially hand over to the IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, the fighter’s “Release to Service Document (RSD)”, which specifies the capabilities the Tejas has already demonstrated during flight testing.

This includes aerodynamic capabilities like speed, acceleration, climb rate and angle of attack; and also the basic weapons operations already tested on the Tejas, and the fighter’s proven radar and sensor capabilities. The Tejas flight-testing programme has been a prolonged and painstaking exercise, since this is India’s first modern fighter. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – a special purpose vehicle of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), set up to manage the Tejas programme – worried that a crash during flight-testing might be a fatal blow to the project itself, and so has handled flight testing cautiously, taking twice the time that experienced countries do.

Once the IOC is awarded, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will build the IAF’s first 20 Tejas fighters on a brand new production line in Bangalore. HAL has told Business Standard that it aims to roll out the first two fighters by March 2014, deliver eight fighters by end-2014, and then enhance the production line’s capability to 16 fighters a year.

So far, the IAF has committed to just 40 Tejas fighters. Of these, 20 will be built to IOC standards, and the next 20 ordered when Final Operation Clearance (FOC) is obtained. The defence minister has ordered the DRDO to ensure the FOC is not delayed beyond end-2014.

Avinash Chander, the DRDO chief, tells Business Standard the FOC will involve firing a range of different weapons, including missiles and bombs, and testing the fighter for mid-air refuelling.

“With the IAF now enthused about the Tejas, and participating actively in the project, we will surely obtain FOC next year. We could not have completed over 450 test flights this year without close cooperation between the IAF, ADA and HAL,” says Chander.

After obtaining FOC for the Tejas, ADA will start work on the Tejas Mark II. The key change is replacing the General Electric F-404 engine that powers the Mark I with the larger, more powerful GE F-414 engine. This will involve re-engineering the Mark I to fit in the bulkier F-414, a technological challenge for ADA.

ADA has also briefed Business Standard that the Tejas Mark II would have more fuel capacity for added range; a retractable mid-air refuelling system; a DRDO-built Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar; world beating air-to-air missiles; an on-board oxygen-generating system, and a state-of-the-art Electronic Warfare suite to confuse enemy radars and sensors. “Eventually, the IAF is very likely to have at least 200 Tejas fighters in its fleet,” says Chander

Idrw.com

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## acetophenol

16 a year isn't bad,that means we can have "Flying Daggers" fully equiped by 2015 beginning. But one has to wait and see if HAL will really pull it off,else A.K.Antony will have to spank HAL in as$ too!

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## AUSTERLITZ

anup said:


> ADA has also briefed Business Standard that the Tejas Mark II would have more fuel capacity for added range; a retractable mid-air refuelling system; a *DRDO-built Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar; world beating air-to-air missiles*; an on-board oxygen-generating system, and a state-of-the-art Electronic Warfare suite to confuse enemy radars and sensors. “Eventually, the IAF is very likely to have at least 200 Tejas fighters in its fleet,” says Chander
> 
> Idrw.com



I rolled my eyes when saw this.

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## adwityagrata

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I rolled my eyes when saw this.



Thank you for sharing your personal reaction. I farted after reading your comment too.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> Compared to what? To any 4th gen fighter, yes, but compared to a heavy class twin engined stealth FGFA? The DRDO/ADA AMCA is definitely no good option, since it needs too long and would be just another twin engine fighter.* But if they change the design and work together with HAL, instead of against them and FGFA, they could benefit from FGFA and develop a smaller single engine stealth fighter*. The common systems would not only reduce costs, but ease developments, which then would justify a switch from LCA to AMCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Not possible, since it is a light class fighter that offers too many size or weight restrictions. The addition of CFTs with internal weapon bays, is not possible because of the gear bays that are extracting outwards. Just like the centerline station has lenght and width restrictions, which makes a weapon pod like the Silent Hornet has not possible too. So without a major re-design, you can't make a light class fighter stealthy (the Rafale or the MKI offer more potential in that regard), which would make a newly designed stealth fighter more logical.
> 
> 
> 
> Just wishful thinking of DRDO, not more. They claimed LCA would get 5th generation capabilities only because there is a possibility to add modern touch displays in future. Just a distraction from their failures.



A single engine AMCA is really good idea.

It would be even better if it shares power plant with FGFA.

The other idea is develop medium sized but twin engine AMCA in JV with Dassault.

The power plant should be based on M-88 2 producing thrust of* 11,000 KG*.


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## Ahmad Masood

Finally, the long wait is over. Congratulations to all Indian members.

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## HariPrasad

sancho said:


> Just wishful thinking of DRDO, not more. They claimed LCA would get 5th generation capabilities only because there is a possibility to add modern touch displays in future. Just a distraction from their failures.




I have never heard of that. Pl provide the source. DRDO at the most would state that LCA will have some features of 5th generation aircraft. It is very much possibel because the stuff used in FGFA may be used in Tejas.



IND151 said:


> It would be even better if it shares power plant with FGFA.




FAGFA power plant is too poerfull for aircraft like AMCA. It can not be used else AMCA will start behaving like a missile.


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## sudhir007




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## neehar

waiting for MK-II..


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## IND151

HariPrasad said:


> I have never heard of that. Pl provide the source. DRDO at the most would state that LCA will have some features of 5th generation aircraft. It is very much possibel because the stuff used in FGFA may be used in Tejas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FAGFA power plant is too poerfull for aircraft like AMCA. It can not be used else AMCA will start behaving like a missile.



I was suggesting scenario where AMCA is single engine and shares power plant with FGFA.

FGFA's engine will have thrust of 18,000 kg; more than combined thrust of Mig 29 (16,600 KG).

The other idea (mine) is to develop AMCA in JV with france being powered by engine based on M-88 2 which will have thrust of 11,000 KG.

The reason is S type intake reduces thrust of engine so so much thrust is needed which means in reality AMCA will be able to have thrust of 18,000 KG.


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## HariPrasad

IND151 said:


> I was suggesting scenario where AMCA is single engine and shares power plant with FGFA.
> FGFA's engine will have thrust of 18,000 kg; more than combined thrust of Mig 29 (16,600 KG).




Its fine. I misunderstood.

We can plan something like F 35 in that case. 

Idea of AMCA with JV is good. I can foresee Israel as partner. 

Idea of S duct will give excellent stealth but reduce airflow. We can try something like we did in FAGFA.


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## IND151

HariPrasad said:


> Its fine. I misunderstood.
> 
> We can plan something like F 35 in that case.
> 
> Idea of AMCA with JV is good. I can foresee Israel as partner.
> 
> *Idea of S duct will give excellent stealth but reduce airflow*. We can try something like we did in FAGFA.



That's why I am wanting engine thrust to be 11 ton (in case its twin engine).

Which means even after reduction in airflow and the fact that jet engine never operates at full capacity(expect 5% drop and ) AMCA will produce thrust of 18,700.( Total reduction in thrust 15%. Rest 10% due to reduction of airflow.)

@sancho @Capt.Popeye


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## AUSTERLITZ

adwityagrata said:


> Thank you for sharing your personal reaction. I farted after reading your comment too.



An indigeneous AESA radar by DRDO,tell me truthfully do u really think they can build this and still get tejas mk-2 on time?If it was imported from israel,perhaps.
Don't get me wrong..that they are getting an home built radar is great ,but i'm skeptical and given history have a right to be skeptical about these bold claims.

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## adwityagrata

AUSTERLITZ said:


> An indigeneous AESA radar by DRDO,tell me truthfully do u really think they can build this and still get tejas mk-2 on time?If it was imported from israel,perhaps.
> Don't get me wrong..that they are getting an home built radar is great ,but i'm skeptical and given history have a right to be skeptical about these bold claims.



They have already built a AESA Radar for our AEW&C program and AESA swordfish radar for our ABM system. So I have no reason to doubt their ability or their claim.

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## AUSTERLITZ

adwityagrata said:


> They have already built a AESA Radar for our AEW&C program and AESA swordfish radar for our ABM system. So I have no reason to doubt their ability or their claim.



That it has taken them so long just to get IOC-2 is enough for me to doubt them.

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## halupridol

anup said:


> *DRDO-built* Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar; world beating air-to-air missiles


yeah right.....


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## Srinivas

I have seen the assembly line in HAL , Bangalore ....... Congrats to HAL , They are working under a tight schedule during the past months .


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## kbd-raaf

adwityagrata said:


> They have already built a AESA Radar for our AEW&C program and AESA swordfish radar for our ABM system. So I have no reason to doubt their ability or their claim.



Moving from a gigantic AWACS AESA radar to a much smaller radar to be fitted in the radome of the already small Tejas fighter which only has as much power as can be provided by the engine 84(?)kN engine, is a massive challenge.

Much more difficult than the development of a large AESA radar.

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## adwityagrata

kbd-raaf said:


> Moving from a gigantic AWACS AESA radar to a much smaller radar to be fitted in the radome of the already small Tejas fighter which only has as much power as can be provided by the engine 84(?)kN engine, is a massive challenge.
> 
> Much more difficult than the development of a large AESA radar.



No one has claimed its easy. What is your point ?


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## kbd-raaf

adwityagrata said:


> No one has claimed its easy. What is your point ?



My point is the show of skepticism from previous posters is completely vindicated

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## New

Wow,
Congratulate to all Indian members, for this fighter just seems incredible. 
But nothing less was expected from determined souls toward self confidence & reliance.

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## Badbadman

If push comes to shove these govt agencies can deliver. I hope am right


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## adwityagrata

kbd-raaf said:


> My point is the show of skepticism from previous posters is completely vindicated



Skepticism requires all information to be supported by evidence. What was expressed was Cynicism. 

They are worlds apart.


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> A major re-design of LCA MK-2 would be a lot easier than designing a whole new plane.



Depends on the aim of the re-design, if integrating internal weapon bays is the aim, it would be far easier to develop a new fighter with this aim but far less size, weight or thrust restrictions, than re-designing LCA. A light class fighter is simply not a good base for high capability and performance, one reason why I always prefered Chinas way to go for a single engined medium class fighter as the low end.



SR-91 said:


> IMO, IAF will go for all three categories of Heavy, Mid and Light weight aircraft



Heavy - MKI + FGFA
Medium - M2K UPG, Mig 29 UPG, Rafale
Light - LCA



SR-91 said:


> Not to mention, higher use of composites,from the current use of 45% to over 70% and RAM coatings will def. help in bring down the RCS.



Composites are mainly used to bring the weight down, the fact that it reflects radar waves less than normal materials is just a side advantage, but the use of RAM and coatings, besides having a low RCS by design are the main benefits in that regard. However, even it LCA would have 100% composites, would be fully covered by RAM it hardly has an advantage as long as it has to carry that many external payloads. That's why reducing external fuel tanks and weapons will add far more to RCS reductions, than any reduction of the clean fighter. 
Simple example, an Eurofighter is said to have one of the smallest clean RCS today, but add some fuel tanks and the RCS will be increased by far. The much bigger Su 35 has a larger clean RCS, but carry the fuel internally, which means the RCS won't be increased by fuel tanks anymore. So the RCS of EF with fuel tanks, will be far closer, or even bigger than of the Su 35. The Silent Eagle and Hornet developments are going in the same directions, by reducing the RCS with removing external payloads as much as possible and not by reducing the clean RCS of the fighter only.

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## janon

adwityagrata said:


> *Skepticism requires all information to be supported by evidence.* What was expressed was Cynicism.
> 
> They are worlds apart.



Actually skepticism is the scrutinizing of claims that are not backed by evidence. Skepticism doesn't put forth a claim, it merely challenges a claim that has been put forward already, and demands evidence.

The claim that DRDO can field an AESA radar on mk-2 in time, when they couldn't field a mechanically scanned radar on mk-1 in all these decades, is a claim that is very rightly open to skepticism. As of now, only the USA and france have fielded working AESAs on fighters. Not even Russia, with decades of experience in PESAs. So DRDO's claim that they can pull off an AESA in three years, when so far they haven't even produced a PESA, and even failed to produce an MSA for mk-1, is like any other claim of DRDO.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> yes it would be a major re design of tejas... what do you think ?? am i adding small changes to make it silent eagle.. this is as good as what has happened to F-15.. this would be more valuable than AMCA.....



A Silent re-design would be far more valuable for IAF, with FGFA and AURA coming, but for LCA as a platform, such re-designs simply would be too complicated and hardly doable. MKI or Rafale offer more space and potential for such changes, Rafale will have CFTs in future and Dassault is already working on a weapon pod similar to the Silent Hornet, the MKI already carries fuel internally and imo has the potential to carry either a weapon bay on the centerline station, or weapon pods at the wingstations.


IND151 said:


> A single engine AMCA is really good idea.
> 
> It would be even better if it shares power plant with FGFA.



It definitely would be a "logical" approach, to ease and simplify an AMCA development, but as long as we (our industry) tend to develop every nut and bold alone, that sadly is not going to happen. But when you look at it logically it could go like this:

Requirement: 

IAF gets FGFA and AURA, IN has no 5th gen aircraft, so logically they need an AMCA more than IAF need it and why the requirement for a 5th gen carrier fighter is higher than for another fighter for the air force!


What we have: 

We already have the N-LCA tech demonstrator, which gives us base experience and knowledge in navalising a fighter and possibly valuable input for a new carrier fighter design. 
We have reasonable know how of modern materials and coatings and can gain a lot from design and techs of FGFA!
We also have access to NG avionics or weapon developments, through access to foreign partners!


What we need: 

5th gen fighter design will be a problem for us, based on the issues and problems we already have in various aircraft developments. Therefor design assistance of a foreign partner is crucial, be it of a Russian, or a western partner.
Our own engine development for a 4th gen fighter failed and improving it to be used in a 5th gen fighter will be to ambitous and risky again. Simply using a version of the type 30 engine of FGFA, that HAL will produce in India anyway, would be the most logical choice. One could think about going the Swedish way and develop an "own" engine, based on a foreign one (Volvo RM12 with around 60% parts of the US GE 404, similarly Kaveri K-X engine, based on X% of the type 30). 
If we get catapults for IAC 2, we will need a foreign partner that has experience with developing fighters for this aim (Dassault, Boeing and now LM would be the logical choices)!


So all in all, the plan must be to base such a development as much as possible on what we already have from LCA/N-LCA TD and what we get from FGFA, or even through MMRCA, while all new development parts should be done with foreign partners (HALBIT displays, Samtel-Thales IRST or HMS, BEL-Thales/Rafael for an internal LDP, naval design with Dassault or Boeing as a partner, NIIP as a partner for the AESA radar development, based on FGFA's radar...).



IND151 said:


> The power plant should be based on M-88 2 producing thrust of 11,000 KG.



Not sure if such a big jump is even possible from the current 75kN, not to mention if that would give a useful balance between thrust and fuel consumption. But the biggest issue here is, that we would just add another twin engined fighter, which makes it more costly again.

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## sancho

janon said:


> The claim that DRDO can field an AESA radar on mk-2 in time, when they couldn't field a mechanically scanned radar on mk-1 in all these decades, is a claim that is very rightly open to skepticism.



That exactly is the point! IF DRDO would be remotly as capable as they claim, we would not need to buy an Israeli radar for 40 x LCA MK1s and around 100 x Jags during the upgrade. The Jags require even very basic radar capabilities for a 4th gen MMR and if IAF still needs to import techs, it says a lot about DRDOs fighter radar capabilities.
Btw, even ADA officials had stated doubts on DRDOs claims of LCA MK2 coming with their AESA at the begining. If we insist on DRDO radars on LCA, the most likely scenario might be EL 2032 for MK1, indigenous puls doppler MMR for early MK2s and as soon as the indigenous AESA is ready and mature enough, it will be added to the MK2 production line and as upgrades for the earlier LCAs.


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## Sri

Some interesting points on the Performance improvements needed in MK1. Its a old doc not sure if they have already implemented. Excuse if already posted...


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## Gessler

We should put a foreign AESA similar to the one on Gripen E on the Mk-2.

When the DRDO radar comes, we will retrofit it then, if it proves to be more capable
or less costly to operate in the long term.

The two programs (making of Mk-2 LCA and making of indigenous fighter-based AESA)
shouldn't be interconnected and one shouldn't be the cause for other's delay.


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## Superboy

In other words, if everything goes well, the first squadron can be raised in early 2015?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> A Silent re-design would be far more valuable for IAF, with FGFA and AURA coming, but for LCA as a platform, such re-designs simply would be too complicated and hardly doable. MKI or Rafale offer more space and potential for such changes,


Do you think we can do re design on MKI or Rafale? we dont have there CAD design to make structural changes... And FGFA is not there any more, And having a silent Eagle Tejas would be more valuable to IAF compared to MKI or Rafale on which we cant do any changes


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## Sri

HariPrasad said:


> Look at the air intake of LSP 8. i believe that Air intake design issue is resolved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a primer and not Paint.
> 
> 
> Can anybody Gauze the weight of Payload on LSP 4-5.
> 
> 
> Nope,
> 
> They are really bigger.




Yes it does look big in LSP8

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## Sergi

Anybody know the status of Mark-2 proto ???
Mr. Chandar in last paragraph said a lot. Hope he isn't filling voids for Mr. Saraswat


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## Munir

They bought a different engine.. Different air intake... Logical.

Look at the pics... The plane got huge actuators... Looks like 747...


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## Storm Force

> In other words, if everything goes well, the first squadron can be raised in early 2015?


 
No Superboy.

The first sqd will be raised Early next year and be fully complemented and ready by early 2015 with 16 fighters.

by 2023 there will be 7 sqds 5 of which will be MK2 aesa equipped with bigger engines and ASTRA BVRs


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## KRAIT

Will believe when they do.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Do you think we can do re design on MKI or Rafale? we dont have there CAD design to make structural changes... And FGFA is not there any more, And having a silent Eagle Tejas would be more valuable to IAF compared to MKI or Rafale on which we cant do any changes



Why would a Silent Tejas be more valuable than a Silent MKI or Rafale? The small size and trust will even work against carrying useful loads, not to mention that the other 2 offer more technical potential too.
A re-design to make MKI or Rafale similar to the Silent Hornet is not needed. As I said, Rafale already has CFTs and weapon pods under development and MKI is actually an ideal plattform for missile bays on the centerline and weapon pods for bombs at the wing stations. With a large number of 4th gen fighters remaining in IAF for the next 3 x decades, we should focus on own developments in that regard as well and not only on 5th gen fighters.



Munir said:


> They bought a different engine.. Different air intake... Logical.



Just that neither the engine has changed, nor the air intake, other than some drag reductions.


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## adwityagrata

janon said:


> Actually skepticism is the scrutinizing of claims that are not backed by evidence. Skepticism doesn't put forth a claim, it merely challenges a claim that has been put forward already, and demands evidence.
> 
> The claim that DRDO can field an AESA radar on mk-2 in time, when they couldn't field a mechanically scanned radar on mk-1 in all these decades, is a claim that is very rightly open to skepticism. As of now, only the USA and france have fielded working AESAs on fighters. Not even Russia, with decades of experience in PESAs. So DRDO's claim that they can pull off an AESA in three years, when so far they haven't even produced a PESA, and even failed to produce an MSA for mk-1, is like any other claim of DRDO.



LOL. You are wrong about what define Skepticism. Skepticism requires one to disregard ANY claim that is not backed by evidence. 

When MK-2 timeline itself if not set and clearly defined, it is ridiculous for someone to claim DRDO cannot meet that mythical time line. That itself is a logical fallacy. 

DRDO has not even claimed they will build the entire AESA radar on their own, they could very well seek a ToT and modify it to suite LCA. They have already demonstrated that ability in developing swordfish. DRDO could also have a tie up with a foreign agency for a joint development for AESA radar. Barak 8 and Brahmos is a classic example. 

Hence the conclusion that the expressed opinion was cynicism disguised as skepticism.


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## janon

adwityagrata said:


> LOL. You are wrong about what define Skepticism. Skepticism requires one to disregard ANY claim that is not backed by evidence.
> 
> Which means that I was right and you were wrong about what skepticism is, when you said that skepticism is about bringing evidence, and I replied that it is actually about dismissing claims that cannot be backed by evidence. The burden of bringing evidence is on the party making a claim, not on the party expressing skepticism about that claim.
> 
> When MK-2 timeline itself if not set and clearly defined, it is ridiculous for someone to claim DRDO cannot meet that mythical time line. That itself is a logical fallacy.
> 
> The article that is being discussed on this thread has put forward the anticipated timelines for mk2. It is in light of this timeline, that people here are expressing skepticism about DRDO making an indigenous AESA by then. If it was so easy, many major aerospace or avionics giants would have made AESAs.
> 
> DRDO has not even claimed they will build the entire AESA radar on their own, they could very well seek a ToT and modify it to suite LCA. They have already demonstrated that ability in developing swordfish. DRDO could also have a tie up with a foreign agency for a joint development for AESA radar. Barak 8 and Brahmos is a classic example.
> 
> The article says 'DRDO built AESA radar', which is supposed to mean one that is developed by DRDO, not one that is purchased through ToT and made locally. DRDO is a research organization, not an assembly or manufacturing one, like HAL. So when they say 'DRDO made', it means developed by DRDO, not purchased by ToT and manufactured by DRDO. The R and D in DRDO stand for...
> 
> Hence the conclusion that the expressed opinion was cynicism disguised as skepticism.
> 
> You can play with words all you want. In fact cynicism is also not unwarranted, given DRDO's track record of tall promises and incommensurate results. With a development timeline of 20+ years, they have not delivered a decent mechanical radar for Tejas, and eventually an Israeli one had to be procured. Now expecting them to make an AESA in another three years to outmatch the elta-2032 in performance and have similar size, is rather optimistic, to put it mildly. Even the Russians, who put the first operational electronically scanned radar on a fighter (mig-31), have not been able to field a fighter sized AESA.



Responses in red. Short version: Skepticism and even cynicism is fully warranted, going by track record. And please understand that DRDO doesn't do things like ToT, that is not what they are there for. They are there to develop things indigenously, unlike other PSUs.

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## Indischer

@janon Isn't the Russian Zhuk AESA radar already fielded on the Mig-35?


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## janon

Indischer said:


> @janon Isn't the Russian Zhuk AESA radar already fielded on the Mig-35?



The mig-35 is not in operational service with any country. Only USA and france (them, about a month ago) have operationally fielded AESAs on fighters. When the mig-35 underwent trials in India, it did not have an AESA. In fact none of the non American fighters in that competition did.

Russia's latest and most modern fighter, the Su-35BM has a PESA. (A damn good one, btw.) Most probably it will be our own MKIs that field the first operational Russian AESA, when they get upgraded to super-30 standard. Or maybe the Russian navy's mig-29Ks which might get the zhuk-ae.

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## Indischer

janon said:


> The mig-35 is not in operational service with any country. Only USA and france (them, about a month ago) have operationally fielded AESAs on fighters. When the mig-35 underwent trials in India, it did not have an AESA. In fact none of the non American fighters in that competition did.
> 
> Russia's latest and most modern fighter, the Su-35BM has a PESA. (A damn good one, btw.) Most probably it will be our own MKIs that field the first operational Russian AESA, when they get upgraded to super-30 standard. Or maybe the Russian navy's mig-29Ks which might get the zhuk-ae.



Thanks. I was under the impression that India had rejected an AESA-equipped Mig 35. Btw, If India does go ahead with the Rafales, will it get an AESA or PESA variant?


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## adwityagrata

janon said:


> Responses in red. Short version: Skepticism and even cynicism is fully warranted, going by track record. And please understand that DRDO doesn't do things like ToT, that is not what they are there for. They are there to develop things indigenously, unlike other PSUs.



R&D does not mean reinventing the wheel or building everything from scratch. We are part of the global supply chain and it is impossible to cut off and develop any technology worthwhile. 

Every electronic component worth its name is imported into India. Point is that DRDO job is to research how to use technology for defense application, not invent technology. Hope you understand the difference.


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## janon

Indischer said:


> Thanks. I was under the impression that India had rejected an AESA-equipped Mig 35. Btw, If India does go ahead with the Rafales, will it get an AESA or PESA variant?



AESA - in the latter stages of the competition, that as made mandatory, that the winning fighter should have an AESA by 2015. All the non American fighters showed a plan or roadmap as to what sort of an AESA they will be able to make by then. One of the criteria that went against the gripen was that the IAF was not convinced about their plans, that they could field an AESA in time. The other three contenders promised an AESA version of already fielded MSAs or PESA (in Rafale's case).

If the IAF did not have faith in Saab/Selex's ability to come up with an AESA in three years, one can understand why DRDO's claim to that effect will have to be taken with a pinch of salt.



adwityagrata said:


> R&D does not mean reinventing the wheel or building everything from scratch. We are part of the global supply chain and it is impossible to cut off and develop any technology worthwhile.
> 
> Every electronic component worth its name is imported into India. Point is that DRDO job is to research how to use technology for defense application, not invent technology. Hope you understand the difference.



That is all fine and dandy. But the DRDO itself does not do things like ToT - that organization exists research indigenous stuff. What they can't do, will be imported or licence manufactured by other agencies. So DRDO developed Arjun tank, but the parts that they could not develop, were bought from abroad. But when the article says "DRDO made radar", they mean one that is developed by DRDO, not one that is acquired through ToT. Which is why the MKI's radar, although built locally, is not called a DRDO made radar. If the article was talking about ToTed radar, they would not have said "DRDO made radar", and people here would not have expressed skepticism (or cynicism as you call it), and this exchange would not be taking place.


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## adwityagrata

janon said:


> That is all fine and dandy. But the DRDO itself does not do things like ToT - that organization exists research indigenous stuff. What they can't do, will be imported or licence manufactured by other agencies. So DRDO developed Arjun tank, but the parts that they could not develop, were bought from abroad. But when the article says "DRDO made radar", they mean one that is developed by DRDO, not one that is acquired through ToT. Which is why the MKI's radar, although built locally, is not called a DRDO made radar. If the article was talking about ToTed radar, they would not have said "DRDO made radar", and people here would not have expressed skepticism (or cynicism as you call it), and this exchange would not be taking place.



Even the simple act of assembling AESA radar could be termed as 'DRDO made radar'. ToT was an example, it could be customization of existing an radar, it could be miniaturization of the AEW&C radar modules etc. What it implies is that DRDO has demonstrated capability in Radars. BTW the article nowhere mentions the timelines for Mk-II, so maybe you can explain to us how you have gone on to claim that the article indicates some kind of timeline, either for LCA MK-II or for its radar.


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## janon

adwityagrata said:


> Even the simple act of assembling AESA radar could be termed as 'DRDO made radar'. ToT was an example, it could be customization of existing an radar, it could be miniaturization of the AEW&C radar modules etc. What it implies is that DRDO has demonstrated capability in Radars. BTW the article nowhere mentions the timelines for Mk-II, so maybe you can explain to us how you have gone on to claim that the article indicates some kind of timeline, either for LCA MK-II or for its radar.



No it can't. As I said before, DRDO is not in the business of assembling foreign radars, or anything else. It is a research and development agency, not a manufacturing agency. It designs missiles, which are then manufactured by BDL. It designs tanks, which are then manufactured by HVF. It (through ADA) designed LCA, which will be manufactured by HAL, and so on. Since DRDO does not manufacture or assemble anything, there is no way that assembling a foreign radar can make it a "DRDO made radar", when DRDO would have nothing to do in that process. It won't be DRDO that assembles a radar, if that is what we will end up doing. It will be HAL. A "DRDO made radar" can only mean one thing, and you might want to stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

About the timeline - you are right that this particular article does not mention it, but it is common knowledge that the mk2 is supposed to have its first slight by end 2014 and be ready for induction by 2017. Many articles are available if you want to know the timeline, and most people commenting here are aware of the proposed timeline, which is why we are all expressing incredulity about DRDO's claims. Just because this particular article doesn't mention the timeleine does not mean that a timeline has not been given at all. The same time that this article was posted, a few others were posted as well, all of which gave proposed timelines. Those threads were moved into the LCA sticky.


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## sancho

janon said:


> When the mig-35 underwent trials in India, it did not have an AESA. In fact none of the non American fighters in that competition did.





janon said:


> One of the criteria that went against the gripen was that the IAF was not convinced about their plans, that they could field an AESA in time. The other three contenders promised an AESA version of already fielded MSAs or PESA (in Rafale's case).
> 
> If the IAF did not have faith in Saab/Selex's ability to come up with an AESA in three years, one can understand why DRDO's claim to that effect will have to be taken with a pinch of salt.



That's not fully correct, the Rafale and with one month delay the Gripen NG, came with AESA radars to India. Only the Mig and the EF showed off their AESA radars in the trials in Russia and Germany/UK. The Mig had an early Zhuk AE that was too heavy and didn't offered the promised performance, the EF only showed an AESA demonstrator and not the Captor E that they want to develop in future.
Also the Gripen AESA development wasn't the issue, but the performance was reportedly not good (similar reports from other trials as well) and that not even a real prototype of the Gripen E was available. They only had older Gripen C/Ds which did the main parts of the Trials in India and the Gripen NG Tech Demonstrator and the risk of the Gripen to be availabe in time according to the RFP was simply too high (similar high risk rating in Brazil). Today we know that the first Gripen E will be available only by 2018, which is the same time LCA MK2 is expected, so it never was a useful choice.

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## Water Car Engineer

Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas

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## shree835

*Light Combat Aircraft Tejas completes 2,400 sorties *

NEW DELHI: The indigenously-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has undertaken 2,400 sorties to meet the requirements of the IAF, which is set to induct the aircraft on December 20.

"The LCA has clocked over 2400 flights till now with highest ever number of sorties achieved in the current year. The programme has achieved highest ever average number of flights per aircraft per month during this year," HAL officials said here.

The aircraft is set to be inducted into the IAF next week three decades after the programme was sanctioned by the then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.

The aircraft had recently met its final parameter by displaying its missile firing capabilities with the launching of an infrared seeking air-to-air missile that hit the target with precision and destroyed it.

The Initial Operational Clearance-II of the aircraft will be done at its home-base in Bangalore after which it will be inducted into the IAF by Defence Minister A K Antony.

The aircraft will be the LCA Mark 1 and 40 of them will be inducted by the IAF and the DRDO and HAL will continue to make improvements in it, they said, adding more powerful and capable version would be inducted later in the force.

The IAF, if everything moves ahead as per the present plans, will have a total of seven squadrons of such aircraft which comes to about 140 aircraft.

The aircraft project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore at an approximate overall cost of less than Rs 8,000 crore. The overall programme is expected to cost over Rs 25,000 crore.


Light Combat Aircraft Tejas completes 2,400 sorties - The Economic Times

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Why would a Silent Tejas be more valuable than a Silent MKI or Rafale? The small size and trust will even work against carrying useful loads, not to mention that the other 2 offer more technical potential too.
> A re-design to make MKI or Rafale similar to the Silent Hornet is not needed. As I said, Rafale already has CFTs and weapon pods under development and MKI is actually an ideal plattform for missile bays on the centerline and weapon pods for bombs at the wing stations. With a large number of 4th gen fighters remaining in IAF for the next 3 x decades, we should focus on own developments in that regard as well and not only on 5th gen fighters.
> 
> Just that neither the engine has changed, nor the air intake, other than some drag reductions.



The reason is we dont have the CAD design structure to do that.. Rafale and LCA are now both in same category... If MK2 gets AESA it will be as good as Rafale in capabilities... the advantage of LCA is we can design or modify structure using computer design which would reduce lot of efforts(remember we have developed our own world class software to do that), sadly that is not available with MKI or rafale..

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## AnnoyingOrange

Light Combat Aircraft Tejas completes 2,400 sorties - The Economic Times


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## IND151

LCA Tejas completes 2,400 sorties | idrw.org


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> The reason is we dont have the CAD design structure to do that.. Rafale and LCA are now both in same category... If MK2 gets AESA it will be as good as Rafale in capabilities... the advantage of LCA is we can design or modify structure using computer design which would reduce lot of efforts(remember we have developed our own world class software to do that), sadly that is not available with MKI or rafale..



First of all, even with an AESA, LCA will not even be close the Rafale in terms of capability. That's just a dream, since the AESA puts it only technically in the same generation that a Rafale is (also with similar avionics and EW capabilities), but it doesn't make it equal in flight performance, weapon carrying, range...
Secondly, we don't need CAD designs of the fighter to develop a weapon pod, that will be added on an external hardpoint.
And at last you didn't understand what the problem with LCA is in this regard:

















As you can see, the Silent Eagle has attached the weapon pods to the side of the airframe, next to the air intakes. That is not possible with the LCA, since the gears and gear bays are extracting to the sides. Similarly, since the gears are housed directly next to the centerline station, there are lenght and width restrictions, once reason the centerline fuel tank is smaller than those at the wings. These size restrictions makes it not possible it add a weapon pod similar to the Silent Hornet, that could house any useful weaponload internally. So to add a weapon pod alone, we would have to re-model the gears, gear bays and fuselage, which at least could increase the width but still will limit the lenght.
LCA is simply designed to be very small and light and not to offer a lot of space in and around the airframe, that's why it's future potential for such RCS reductions is very limited, unlike with bigger medium or heavy class fighters. We even have difficulties to add more avionics and systems to the small airframe for the MK2, to make it 4.5th gen ready, so no matter what software we might have, it's no use when the platform don't offer the size and potential for such upgrades.
ADA/DRDO might aim on shaping the airframe a bit, but that only brings the clean RCS down and not the loaded / operational one, so no matter what they claim, that hardly will have an effect and has nothing to do with stealth at all.

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## adwityagrata

janon said:


> No it can't. As I said before, DRDO is not in the business of assembling foreign radars, or anything else. It is a research and development agency, not a manufacturing agency. It designs missiles, which are then manufactured by BDL. It designs tanks, which are then manufactured by HVF. It (through ADA) designed LCA, which will be manufactured by HAL, and so on. Since DRDO does not manufacture or assemble anything, there is no way that assembling a foreign radar can make it a "DRDO made radar", when DRDO would have nothing to do in that process. It won't be DRDO that assembles a radar, if that is what we will end up doing. It will be HAL. A "DRDO made radar" can only mean one thing, and you might want to stop arguing for the sake of arguing.
> 
> About the timeline - you are right that this particular article does not mention it, but it is common knowledge that the mk2 is supposed to have its first slight by end 2014 and be ready for induction by 2017. Many articles are available if you want to know the timeline, and most people commenting here are aware of the proposed timeline, which is why we are all expressing incredulity about DRDO's claims. Just because this particular article doesn't mention the timeleine does not mean that a timeline has not been given at all. The same time that this article was posted, a few others were posted as well, all of which gave proposed timelines. Those threads were moved into the LCA sticky.



When DRDO "assembles" Agni 6 for the first time, it will not magically transform itself into a manufacturing agency. It will continue to remain a R&D org. Same holds true for assembling a Radar. 

Are you deliberately being stupid about misunderstanding what assembling a Radar in a R&D organization mean ? I am not interested in your strawman defense. 

So you agree that nowhere in the article does Mk-II time line appear NOR does timeline for developing AESA radar appear. So it appears all your argument was a strawman too. (so much for skepticism) LOL.

You just assumed a timeline for LCA MK-II and a DRDO timeline for AESA Radar and proclaimed it will never be met. I do not think I need to waste any more time with this nonsense.


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## janon

adwityagrata said:


> When DRDO "assembles" Agni 6 for the first time, it will not magically transform itself into a manufacturing agency. It will continue to remain a R&D org. Same holds true for assembling a Radar.
> 
> Are you deliberately being stupid about misunderstanding what assembling a Radar in a R&D organization mean ? I am not interested in your strawman defense.
> 
> So you agree that nowhere in the article does Mk-II time line appear NOR does timeline for developing AESA radar appear. So it appears all your argument was a strawman too. (so much for skepticism) LOL.
> 
> You just assumed a timeline for LCA MK-II and a DRDO timeline for AESA Radar and proclaimed it will never be met. I do not think I need to waste any more time with this nonsense.



OK, you win. Happy?

(Sigh!)


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## Robinhood Pandey

today MIG 21 FLs of our air force were retired ! is it because of the tejas IOC 2 ( as reports are there that it will be inducted on 20th of this month) or it was pre planned irrespective of this IOC ?


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## SR-91

sancho said:


> As you can see, the Silent Eagle has attached the weapon pods to the side of the airframe, next to the air intakes. That is not possible with the LCA, since the gears and gear bays are extracting to the sides. Similarly, since the gears are housed directly next to the centerline station, there are lenght and width restrictions, once reason the centerline fuel tank is smaller than those at the wings. These size restrictions makes it not possible it add a weapon pod similar to the Silent Hornet, that could house any useful weaponload internally. So to add a weapon pod alone, we would have to re-model the gears, gear bays and fuselage, which at least could increase the width but still will limit the lenght.
> LCA is simply designed to be very small and light and not to offer a lot of space in and around the airframe, that's why it's future potential for such RCS reductions is very limited, unlike with bigger medium or heavy class fighters. We even have difficulties to add more avionics and systems to the small airframe for the MK2, to make it 4.5th gen ready, so no matter what software we might have, it's no use when the platform don't offer the size and potential for such upgrades.
> ADA/DRDO might aim on shaping the airframe a bit, but that only brings the clean RCS down and not the loaded / operational one, so no matter what they claim, that hardly will have an effect and has nothing to do with stealth at all.



You are a 100% right(boppin my head like a southy ).Today.

What seems impossible today, might make it look like a joke tomorrow.


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## faithfulguy

adwityagrata said:


> They have already built a AESA Radar for our AEW&C program and AESA swordfish radar for our ABM system. So I have no reason to doubt their ability or their claim.



Are you saying that @AUSTERLITZ never thought of putting a aew&c radar on top of a LCA and you thought of that.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> That it has taken them so long just to get IOC-2 is enough for me to doubt them.



Its always better to be cautious and reserved that brag too much. I applaud you for that.



sancho said:


> That exactly is the point! IF DRDO would be remotly as capable as they claim, we would not need to buy an Israeli radar for 40 x LCA MK1s and around 100 x Jags during the upgrade. The Jags require even very basic radar capabilities for a 4th gen MMR and if IAF still needs to import techs, it says a lot about DRDOs fighter radar capabilities.
> Btw, even ADA officials had stated doubts on DRDOs claims of LCA MK2 coming with their AESA at the begining. If we insist on DRDO radars on LCA, the most likely scenario might be EL 2032 for MK1, indigenous puls doppler MMR for early MK2s and as soon as the indigenous AESA is ready and mature enough, it will be added to the MK2 production line and as upgrades for the earlier LCAs.



Base you what you say, a DRDO AESA radar would not be ready until MKIV is ready.



adwityagrata said:


> LOL. You are wrong about what define Skepticism. Skepticism requires one to disregard ANY claim that is not backed by evidence.
> 
> When MK-2 timeline itself if not set and clearly defined, it is ridiculous for someone to claim DRDO cannot meet that mythical time line. That itself is a logical fallacy.
> 
> DRDO has not even claimed they will build the entire AESA radar on their own, they could very well seek a ToT and modify it to suite LCA. They have already demonstrated that ability in developing swordfish. DRDO could also have a tie up with a foreign agency for a joint development for AESA radar. Barak 8 and Brahmos is a classic example.
> 
> Hence the conclusion that the expressed opinion was cynicism disguised as skepticism.



Sounds like you are ready for a repeat experience of LCA MKI for LCA MKII.


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## Tshering22

Well they better hurry. It is not like Tejas was completed on time. 16 a year is optimum, but looking at the sarkari lazy-@$$ mentality when it comes to working, I doubt they will be able to make even 10 a year. Especially at the current pace.

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## shree835

Tshering22 said:


> Well they better hurry. It is not like Tejas was completed on time. 16 a year is optimum, but looking at the sarkari lazy-@$$ mentality when it comes to working, I doubt they will be able to make even 10 a year. Especially at the current pace.


I had an opportunity to visit there... As HCL says 16 in a year, trust me...there is nothing wrong in that.


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## RPK

*LCA set to join IAF - The Hindu*


*The tail-less little wonder is set to earn its initial operational clearance*
Even as the workhorse of the Indian Air Force, MiG-21, bowed out on Wednesday, indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, is just a formality away from passing into the hands of the force.

Dubbed the world’s lightest fighter, the tail-less little wonder is due to ceremonially earn its initial operational clearance (IOC) and move closer to joining the IAF at its birthplace, Bangalore, on December 20.

The event will see its creator and developer, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the DRDO, hand over an aircraft, along with the user manuals, in as good as battle-ready state to the IAF.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, and DRDO Director-General Avinash Chander are slated to be present at the ceremony along with the “who’s who” of the military set-up.

After obtaining the IOC, the ADA’s production partner, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., will start producing 20 of them in the IOC version, said an official involved in the 25-year-old LCA programme.

Yet, the LCA will be considered fully battle-ready only around end-2014, after it clears firing more lethal armaments and missiles.

HAL says it plans to initially produce eight LCA for the IAF a year from 2014-15, and raise the delivery rate to 12-16 a year subsequently. Its production centre in Bangalore has built up nearly 28,000 sq m of space to house the LCA’s hangar and engineering sections. A repair and overhaul unit is to follow later.

Two squadrons (each having 18-20 aircraft) are expected to be delivered in five years, that is, around 2019. The IAF is expected to eventually station the LCA fleet at the Sulur Air Force Station near Coimbatore.

In the next decade, the IAF is estimated to need 200-220 LCAs as per past statements. HAL has supplied a limited series of eight aircraft leading to the IOC and has orders for 40 LCA from the IAF: of them, 20 are to be in the IOC mode for an order worth Rs. 4,000 crore and another 20 in the FOC mode. The Navy, too, it is said, needs 40 of them to replace the Sea Harriers.On December 7, the LCA made another mark after it released an air-to-air missile that also ‘killed’ a moving practice target.

Tejas is a fourth-generation fighter with contemporary technologies.


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## vivINDIAN

Even as the workhorse of the Indian Air Force, MiG-21, bowed out on Wednesday, indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, is just a formality away from passing into the hands of the force.

Dubbed the world’s lightest fighter, the tail-less little wonder is due to ceremonially earn its initial operational clearance 2 (IOC-2) and move closer to joining the IAF at its birthplace, Bangalore, on December 20.

*The event will see its creator and developer, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the DRDO, hand over an aircraft, along with the user manuals, in as good as battle-ready state to the IAF.*

Defence Minister A.K. Antony, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, and DRDO Director-General Avinash Chander are slated to be present at the ceremony along with the “who’s who” of the military set-up.

After obtaining the IOC, the ADA’s production partner, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., will start producing 20 of them in the IOC version, said an official involved in the 25-year-old LCA programme.

Yet, *the LCA will be considered fully battle-ready only around end-2014, after it clears firing more lethal armaments and missiles.*

*HAL says it plans to initially produce eight LCA for the IAF a year from 2014-15*, *and raise the delivery rate to 12-16 a year subsequently*. Its production centre in Bangalore has built up nearly 28,000 sq m of space to house the LCA’s hangar and engineering sections. A repair and overhaul unit is to follow later.

*Two squadrons (each having 18-20 aircraft) are expected to be delivered in five years, that is, around 2019.* The IAF is expected to eventually station the LCA fleet at the Sulur Air Force Station near Coimbatore.

In the next decade, the IAF is estimated to need 200-220 LCAs as per past statements. HAL has supplied a limited series of eight aircraft leading to the IOC and has orders for 40 LCA from the IAF: of them, 20 are to be in the IOC mode for an order worth Rs. 4,000 crore and another 20 in the FOC mode. The Navy, too, it is said, needs 40 of them to replace the Sea Harriers.On December 7, the LCA made another mark after it released an air-to-air missile that also ‘killed’ a moving practice target.

*Tejas is a fourth-generation fighter with contemporary technologies*.

LCA set to join IAF - The Hindu

*HAL says it plans to initially produce eight LCA for the IAF a year from 2014-15, and raise the delivery rate to 12-16 a year subsequently.

Two squadrons (each having 18-20 aircraft) are expected to be delivered in five years, that is, around 2019--- *private sectors would have done better i think.they should give TOT to manufacture the jets after the development of mark 2 or hand over the HAL production facility to pvt sectors.

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## MilSpec

How many more articles on the same subject are going to be published...

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## Tshering22

iF


shree835 said:


> I had an opportunity to visit there... As HCL says 16 in a year, trust me...there is nothing wrong in that.



They often say a lot of things and history is testimony to it.


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## Tshering22

Let's hope my kid (whenever due) doesn't have to read another ''Tejas to join....'' article.

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## Bang Galore

spark_chen said:


> I have work with Indian engineer. They don't know what is schcdule. If I date a meeting on 4:00, they will appear when 4:30.



Obviously they doesn't think much of you then, no reason we should.

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## Srinivas

spark_chen said:


> I have work with Indian engineer. They don't know what is schcdule. If I date a meeting on 4:00, they will appear when 4:30.



I interact with chinese often and people do not understand what they are saying, accent and all. Some times the technical terms they pronounce is very funny.

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## MilSpec

spark_chen said:


> I have work with Indian engineer. They don't know what is schcdule. If I date a meeting on 4:00, they will appear when 4:30.


Well sparky
May be that's because you cant spell worth a damn and your grammar is equally inept . It is "Schedule" not schcdule, and it's schedule a meeting not "date a meeting"


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## Robinhood Pandey

seniors got time to reply these trolls but not a genuine question ! how sad


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## spark_chen

maybe, English is not our official language. I am no good at . slides , diagram and code is enough for communication


sandy_3126 said:


> Well sparky
> May be that's because you cant spell worth a damn and your grammar is equally inept . It is "Schedule" not schcdule, and it's schedule a meeting not "date a meeting"


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## adwityagrata

faithfulguy said:


> Are you saying that @AUSTERLITZ never thought of putting a aew&c radar on top of a LCA and you thought of that.



No. I am saying you are a fool and a troll. Do not reply to me troll and waste my time. 



> Its always better to be cautious and reserved that brag too much. I applaud you for that.



For the weak and cowardly, it is always better to be cautious. That advice pretty much sums you up. LOL. 



> Sounds like you are ready for a repeat experience of LCA MKI for LCA MKII.



Of course I am. I love success stories.

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## shree835

*Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne*

Tejas, India's first indigenously designed and developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), would be fully battle-ready by 2014, Indian Air Force chief N.A.K. Browne said in the Meghalaya capital Thursday.

"Tejas, a fourth-generation fighter aircraft, will replace MIG 21 ... and the aircraft will be the LCA Mark I Type. Forty of them will be inducted by the IAF by end-2014," Air Chief Marshal Browne told journalists at the Advance Landing Ground in Upper Shillong.

"Eight days from now, I will head to Bangalore, where we are doing the acceptance of the initial operation clearance, the second operation clearance, for the Tejas LCA so Defence Minister A.K. Antony will also be there."

The air chief, who retires Dec 31, was here on a farewell visit to the Eastern Air Command headquarters.

"We have already begun work to develop Tejas Mark Two aircraft which will be fitted with GE engines. The Mark II Type aircraft will be developed from the basic Mark I and it will have far better improvement in radar systems, powerful engines and even other features," Browne said.

"It (Tejas Mark II) will also have more fuel, more powerful engine and that will actually be the future for the air force in terms of replacement for MIG 21," he said.

Apart from the Tejas aircraft, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale fighter aircraft would also be inducted to further strengthen the assets of the Indian Air Force, the outgoing air chief said.

"Negotiations are going on with regard to the Rafale fighter aircraft. We have a little bit of a set back, as you know, the JSO (joint secretary-operation) who was handling the case passed away two months back. However, a new joint secretary has been appointed last week to take charge of the negotiations. They are having meeting this time. I am hopeful that by next year we are able to wrap up this case," Browne said.

He said delivery of the French MMRCA Rafale fighter aircraft was expected to take place by 2017.

On the phasing out of MIG-21 aircraft, Browne said: "It was a watershed moment for the Indian Air Force because this was the (MIG 21) aircraft which all our fighter pilots, including me and a generation of pilots, had been trained on. It has done its job well."

"So one major phase has passed, and now we look forward to the induction of the Tejas in the Indian Air Force," he said.

Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne | Business Standard

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## Echo_419

spark_chen said:


> maybe, English is not our official language. I am no good at . slides , diagram and code is enough for communication



My parents or any one who was remotely connected to my knew good english 
So I also had to learn it from scratch do you see my Messing it up like you 
You are to damn lazy to learn it properly 
That is the thing


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## IND151

sancho said:


> First of all, even with an AESA, LCA will not even be close the Rafale in terms of capability. That's just a dream, since the AESA puts it only technically in the same generation that a Rafale is (also with similar avionics and EW capabilities), but it doesn't make it equal in flight performance, weapon carrying, range...
> Secondly, we don't need CAD designs of the fighter to develop a weapon pod, that will be added on an external hardpoint.
> And at last you didn't understand what the problem with LCA is in this regard:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the Silent Eagle has attached the weapon pods to the side of the airframe, next to the air intakes. That is not possible with the LCA, since the gears and gear bays are extracting to the sides. Similarly, since the gears are housed directly next to the centerline station, there are lenght and width restrictions, once reason the centerline fuel tank is smaller than those at the wings. These size restrictions makes it not possible it add a weapon pod similar to the Silent Hornet, that could house any useful weaponload internally. So to add a weapon pod alone, we would have to re-model the gears, gear bays and fuselage, which at least could increase the width but still will limit the lenght.
> LCA is simply designed to be very small and light and not to offer a lot of space in and around the airframe, that's why *it's future potential for such RCS reductions is very limited, unlike with bigger medium or heavy class fighters*. We even have difficulties to add more avionics and systems to the small airframe for the MK2, to make it 4.5th gen ready, so no matter what software we might have, it's no use when the platform don't offer the size and potential for such upgrades.
> ADA/DRDO might aim on shaping the airframe a bit, but that only brings the clean RCS down and not the loaded / operational one, so no matter what they claim, that hardly will have an effect and has nothing to do with stealth at all.



One more reason for AMCA

Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne | idrw.org


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## Robinhood Pandey

shree835 said:


> *Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne*
> 
> Tejas, India's first indigenously designed and developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), would be fully battle-ready by 2014, Indian Air Force chief N.A.K. Browne said in the Meghalaya capital Thursday.
> 
> "Tejas, a fourth-generation fighter aircraft, will replace MIG 21 ... and the aircraft will be the LCA Mark I Type. Forty of them will be inducted by the IAF by end-2014," Air Chief Marshal Browne told journalists at the Advance Landing Ground in Upper Shillong.
> 
> "Eight days from now, I will head to Bangalore, where we are doing the acceptance of the initial operation clearance, the second operation clearance, for the Tejas LCA so Defence Minister A.K. Antony will also be there."
> 
> The air chief, who retires Dec 31, was here on a farewell visit to the Eastern Air Command headquarters.
> 
> "We have already begun work to develop Tejas Mark Two aircraft which will be fitted with GE engines. The Mark II Type aircraft will be developed from the basic Mark I and it will have far better improvement in radar systems, powerful engines and even other features," Browne said.
> 
> "It (Tejas Mark II) will also have more fuel, more powerful engine and that will actually be the future for the air force in terms of replacement for MIG 21," he said.
> 
> Apart from the Tejas aircraft, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale fighter aircraft would also be inducted to further strengthen the assets of the Indian Air Force, the outgoing air chief said.
> 
> "Negotiations are going on with regard to the Rafale fighter aircraft. We have a little bit of a set back, as you know, the JSO (joint secretary-operation) who was handling the case passed away two months back. However, a new joint secretary has been appointed last week to take charge of the negotiations. They are having meeting this time. I am hopeful that by next year we are able to wrap up this case," Browne said.
> 
> He said delivery of the French MMRCA Rafale fighter aircraft was expected to take place by 2017.
> 
> On the phasing out of MIG-21 aircraft, Browne said: "It was a watershed moment for the Indian Air Force because this was the (MIG 21) aircraft which all our fighter pilots, including me and a generation of pilots, had been trained on. It has done its job well."
> 
> "So one major phase has passed, and now we look forward to the induction of the Tejas in the Indian Air Force," he said.
> 
> Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne | Business Standard


 
very good news


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## Jayanta

chak de INDIA said:


> very good news



Yes indeed...and one should also think that if IAF has decided to retire the Mig-21's ..this means they have an alternative in their minds and it is Tejas. It is good to see the pace at which things have proceeded in the past few months. But this speed has come after Antony woke up after 9 years of sleeping as defense minister and poked his finger deep in the HAL arse. I hope this pace will continue with MK2..as it is what IAF needs...the MK1 would just be a support and training platform.


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> You are a 100% right(boppin my head like a southy ).Today.
> 
> What seems impossible today, might make it look like a joke tomorrow.



Oh personally I do think it is possible for us to develop weapon pods, just not for LCA. But as we know DRDO and co, they will feel hurt in their pride if our forces will ask them to develop a stealthy weapon pod for MKI and would insist on the development of a stealth fighter instead.

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## sancho

IND151 said:


> One more reason for AMCA



As i said, if the reasons and aims to develop it are good and according to the requirements of our forces, I fully support it, but what ADA and DRDO showed so far is just BS to show of their "capabilities".

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## danger007

sandy_3126 said:


> Well sparky
> May be that's because you cant spell worth a damn and your grammar is equally inept . It is "Schedule" not schcdule, and it's schedule a meeting not "date a meeting"



He don't know the difference... forget him bud..


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## Robinhood Pandey

Tejas to replace MiG-21: Air Chief

Shillong: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne on Thursday said that light combat aircraft 'Tejas' will replace the iconic MiG-21. 

The Tejas is India's first indigenously-designed and developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). 

"One major phase has passed over and now we look toward the new induction into the force. The LCA will replace the MiG-21," Browne told reporters at the headquarter of Eastern Air Command here. 

"We will get 40 aircraft and that will be the Mark-I type. Tejas will be battle ready by end of 2014," he said. 

Defence Minister AK Antony would officially hand over initiation of acceptance of the Tejas into the force at its birthplace in Bengaluru on December 20, the IAF Chief said. 

Browne, accompanied by his wife Kiran, was here on a two-day farewell visit and also attended a Commanders' Conference of the Eastern Air Command. 

*According to Browne, works are on for developing Mark-II type 'Tejas' with improvement in radar system and other add-ons and it will be inducted into the force at a later stage.* 

Asked on air defence scenario in the Northeast region, Browne said, "North East area is important to us. We have plans for induction of radars for the hilly terrain. We have a series of systems that ensure that the air defence is impregnable." 

He said one squadron of Sukhoi would be based in Tezpur by next year, adding that the latest squadron was being formed at Sirsa in Punjab. 

On the MiG-21 FL which was phased out after 50-years of service, at a function at Kalaikunda Air base in West Bengal yesterday, Browne said, "It's been a memorable moment for the Air Force and also a watershed moment as the aircraft which trained all the fighter pilots including myself and generations of pilots." 

"It has done its job. It has done well," he added. 

Tejas has been developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation with Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore, as the lead laboratory and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as the production partner. 

The MiG-21 FL -- a variant in the MiG-21 series of fighter aircraft -- that heralded the dawn of the supersonic jet era for the Indian Air Force half a century ago, on Wednesday passed into military aviation history at an emotional fly past and parade at an air base in West Bengal.

Two pairs of MiG-21 FLs took off with a deafening roar from the runway of the Kalaikunda air base at 9.45 am for one last time on Wednesday, ending a 50-year-long association with the IAF. 

The jet -- that has been flown by nearly three out of every four fighter pilots of the IAF since its induction in 1963 and dealt telling blows to the Pakistan Air Force during the 1971 war -- made its final pass in a four-aircraft box formation over the tarmac area. 

It was a nostalgic moment for Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne and many other weather-beaten IAF veterans who had flown the jet and experienced the distinct "kick" of its reheat, regarded by aviation experts as quite unlike any other fighter jet's "reheat" experience.


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## MilSpec

chak de INDIA said:


> today MIG 21 FLs of our air force were retired ! is it because of the tejas IOC 2 ( as reports are there that it will be inducted on 20th of this month) or it was pre planned irrespective of this IOC ?


Aircrafts are produced overhauled and decommissioned in batches, Not all Mig21FL's will be decommissioned immediately, the ones that are at tail end of flight hours will see decommissioning. Usually you do not want to decommision aircrafts from a sqdn without replacement, there are also other situations where certain sqdns low on numbers will train on with different air base and cross train... 
So as LCA thejas Mk1 gains production numbers, you will see them replacing fishbed variants appropriately.

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## Sergi

IND151 said:


> One more reason for AMCA


You are highly mistaken !!!
I am sure if Mr. Sarswat was there he would have translated it as "*One more reason for LCA MARK-3*" with stealth features !!!!!!

And Mr. Chandar isn't behind too much. Just for change why cant anyone try to promise something that they can keep :hitwalls:


> ADA has also briefed Business Standard that the Tejas Mark II would have more fuel capacity for added range; a retractable mid-air refuelling system; a DRDO-built Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar; world beating air-to-air missiles; an on-board oxygen-generating system, and a state-of-the-art Electronic Warfare suite to confuse enemy radars and sensors. “Eventually, the IAF is very likely to have at least 200 Tejas fighters in its fleet,” says Chander


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## IND151

Tejas fighter jet to officially replace MiG-21 FL | idrw.org


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> First of all, even with an AESA, LCA will not even be close the Rafale in terms of capability. That's just a dream, since the AESA puts it only technically in the same generation that a Rafale is (also with similar avionics and EW capabilities), but it doesn't make it equal in flight performance, weapon carrying, range...
> Secondly, we don't need CAD designs of the fighter to develop a weapon pod, that will be added on an external hardpoint.
> And at last you didn't understand what the problem with LCA is in this regard:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the Silent Eagle has attached the weapon pods to the side of the airframe, next to the air intakes. That is not possible with the LCA, since the gears and gear bays are extracting to the sides. Similarly, since the gears are housed directly next to the centerline station, there are lenght and width restrictions, once reason the centerline fuel tank is smaller than those at the wings. These size restrictions makes it not possible it add a weapon pod similar to the Silent Hornet, that could house any useful weaponload internally. So to add a weapon pod alone, we would have to re-model the gears, gear bays and fuselage, which at least could increase the width but still will limit the lenght.
> LCA is simply designed to be very small and light and not to offer a lot of space in and around the airframe, that's why it's future potential for such RCS reductions is very limited, unlike with bigger medium or heavy class fighters. We even have difficulties to add more avionics and systems to the small airframe for the MK2, to make it 4.5th gen ready, so no matter what software we might have, it's no use when the platform don't offer the size and potential for such upgrades.
> ADA/DRDO might aim on shaping the airframe a bit, but that only brings the clean RCS down and not the loaded / operational one, so no matter what they claim, that hardly will have an effect and has nothing to do with stealth at all.




This is because the DRDO and ADA officially can work on Tejas, we dont have IP rights to change MKI or Rafale without informing them. simple as it is.. and we dont have source code of there software program to change for the modification of opening and closing bay.. This may be possible in MKI but not in Rafale.. they will show the fingers to us... putting stealth on MKI also needs russia approval like the super MKI


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## bloo

* India's Tejas Begins Milestone Clearance Week *




*BANGALORE:* I was in Bangalore in January 2011 when the Indian Air Force grudgingly accepted a milestone in the indigenous LCA Tejas programme. What was supposed to have been initial operational clearance (IOC), had to be staggered, with an agonising three-year wait before the platform would achieve IOC-2 (test points the platform failed to achieve by IOC-1 in Jan 2011), completing the protracted IOC exercise. The ceremony, as reported here on Livefist before, will be on December 20.
I happen to be back in Bangalore now, but on holiday. If I can tear myself away from family (and I can't), I'll attend the short preview event for the Tejas here in the city on December 19, where the Tejas test team and others will be present -- more details should be available there about what test points the team is postponing to the FOC regime. What we do know is that there are certain performance requirements that will be shifted to the FOC schedule. I will be leaving Bangalore on the day of the IOC-2 ceremony on December 20, but will bring you preview material here over the next one week. Nervous time for the team and the air force. Let's hope it isn't a re-run of January 2011. The Tejas deserves better.

Livefist: India's Tejas Begins Milestone Clearance Week

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## Novice09

Hope no more delays occurs


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## Dillinger

kingdurgaking said:


> This is because the DRDO and ADA officially can work on Tejas, we dont have IP rights to change MKI or Rafale without informing them. simple as it is.. and we dont have source code of there software program to change for the modification of opening and closing bay.. This may be possible in MKI but not in Rafale.. they will show the fingers to us... putting stealth on MKI also needs russia approval like the super MKI



You didn't get the gist of what @sancho is saying, there just isn't adequate real-estate on the Tejas to accommodate any such design changes and/or plug ins while larger aircraft (which can compensate for increased drag, weight, fuel consumption) like the MKI can accommodate such alterations (it is irrelevant whether we have the freedom to do so or not, the point being made is that such platforms are capable of coping with the radical upgrade process unlike the Tejas).


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## kingdurgaking

Dillinger said:


> You didn't get the gist of what @sancho is saying, there just isn't adequate real-estate on the Tejas to accommodate any such design changes and/or plug ins while larger aircraft (which can compensate for increased drag, weight, fuel consumption) like the MKI can accommodate such alterations (it is irrelevant whether we have the freedom to do so or not, the point being made is that such platforms are capable of coping with the radical upgrade process unlike the Tejas).


Sancho didnt get what is happening in the world.. the components gets merged and becomes smaller and smaller.. see the laptops and chips, earlier the work of 10 chips is done by a single chips now.. real estate is a problem, but in course of time things will work out... that is where R&D comes out


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## Dillinger

kingdurgaking said:


> Sancho didnt get what is happening in the world.. the components gets merged and becomes smaller and smaller.. see the laptops and chips, earlier the work of 10 chips is done by a single chips now.. real estate is a problem, but in course of time things will work out... that is where R&D comes out



Its not some LRU or rotable that needs upgrading to realize what your hinting at, it will require an intensive restructuring from the ground up to ensure that the Tejas can even hope to assimilate the structural properties of a 5th gen or 4.5+ gen fighter. Suffice to say that the Tejas will never mount CFTs or weapons pods.

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## sathya

At least we get another meter length extra in mk 2 , that ll give some space for few gizmos..


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## kingdurgaking

Dillinger said:


> Its not some LRU or rotable that needs upgrading to realize what your hinting at, it will require an intensive restructuring from the ground up to ensure that the Tejas can even hope to assimilate the structural properties of a 5th gen or 4.5+ gen fighter. Suffice to say that the Tejas will never mount CFTs or weapons pods.



I am a novice.. but being an engineer i myself can see ways we can do it... like save real estate just by reducing the size of components, for (e.g.) FBL is a way you can save lot of space in reducing wires, new generation computers which can handle multiple things, increase radius of body by 10cm etc.. we can re position the landing gear in some new setup that can provide bays etc... Engineers can come up with more innovative ideas... if we believe we cant we cant... if we believe we can we can.. lets see what ADA is deciding.. they have a road map for this ....

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> This is because the DRDO and ADA officially can work on Tejas, we dont have IP rights to change MKI or Rafale without informing them. simple as it is..



First of all, adding a weapon pod don't require any change at the fighters, it's just another external payload, therefor don't require any IP rights like you think
Secondly, we already have made changes to foreign fighters without any issues. M2Ks were modified with Israeli, rumoredly even Russian payloads. The MKI has attached Astra missiles for test flights as well as the Litening LDP. We have Russian fighters with Israeli self protection pods, or as seen recently added the Topsight HMS to Mig 29UPG. All this is no issue and at least with French, or Russians as reliable partners and do you honestly believe the Russians would stop us funding and developing a weapon pod for MKI, that they might need in future for their Su 34s and 35s as well? They will operate these fighter for the next 3 decades and will be more than interested as well, possibly even offer a joint development, to save costs. But only because LCA is indigenous, doesn't mean it's a good platform for anykind of future developments. It's meant to be cheap and simple, that's also why it doesn't need most modern displays or so, only we "could" integrate it, although it wouldn't make it operationally more capable. Same reason why I'm saying that indigenous AESA and Kaveri developments should be aimed on Mig 29K upgrades and not on LCA MK2, because it only delays LCA development as a whole, while it's more important to increase the indigenous content in the Migs for the future.


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## sancho

sathya said:


> At least we get another meter length extra in mk 2 , that ll give some space for few gizmos..



Yes, avionics, additional fuel tanks and a new engine, that is actually the reason why it was necessary to increase the size again and which proves kingdurgaking theory of everything getting smaller and that is enough to be wrong. Infact, it shows that ADA had made a major mistake in the design of LCA, because they designed it with the aim to make it the smallest light class fighter in mind, without taking the necessary internal space for future upgrades to account!

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## Indischer

sandy_3126 said:


> Aircrafts are produced overhauled and decommissioned in batches, Not all Mig21FL's will be decommissioned immediately, the ones that are at tail end of flight hours will see decommissioning. Usually you do not want to decommision aircrafts from a sqdn without replacement, there are also other situations where certain sqdns low on numbers will train on with different air base and cross train...
> So as LCA thejas Mk1 gains production numbers, you will see them replacing fishbed variants appropriately.



I think the articles made it clear that ALL Mig21FLs were being decommissioned. Only the Mig21 Bis and Mig21 Bisons will be retained for some more time. Or are you suggesting that although an official ceremony did take place, the FLs will still be flown for some more time?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> First of all, adding a weapon pod don't require any change at the fighters, it's just another external payload, therefor don't require any IP rights like you think
> Secondly, we already have made changes to foreign fighters without any issues. M2Ks were modified with Israeli, rumoredly even Russian payloads. The MKI has attached Astra missiles for test flights as well as the Litening LDP. We have Russian fighters with Israeli self protection pods, or as seen recently added the Topsight HMS to Mig 29UPG. All this is no issue and at least with French, or Russians as reliable partners and do you honestly believe the Russians would stop us funding and developing a weapon pod for MKI, that they might need in future for their Su 34s and 35s as well? They will operate these fighter for the next 3 decades and will be more than interested as well, possibly even offer a joint development, to save costs. But only because LCA is indigenous, doesn't mean it's a good platform for anykind of future developments. It's meant to be cheap and simple, that's also why it doesn't need most modern displays or so, only we "could" integrate it, although it wouldn't make it operationally more capable. Same reason why I'm saying that indigenous AESA and Kaveri developments should be aimed on Mig 29K upgrades and not on LCA MK2, because it only delays LCA development as a whole, while it's more important to increase the indigenous content in the Migs for the future.



Sancho, you got it wrong here.. you are talking about weapon integration which works on MIL standard provided the target also works on top of it... Israeli LGB works perfectly on standards thats why we are able to do that in Kargil easily but not on Mig - 29 or 21 , where as TOP HMS on MIG 29 is done by French who are working with Mig not with us a new standard architecture agreed between them.. we cant do it because we dont have access to Mig source code, they have standard agreement between them and they work out, ASTRA integration was made easy on MKI because it works on Indian software and we paid money to Russia to integrate the same as we had Open Architecture(Which is why other countries prefer indian version than Russian version of MKI) and thats why we are able to do the Brahmos without russia though we initially asked them to do and they charged heavy money for the sameIF that is the case why we are not able to do the R-77 on Tejas? we have the weapon in inventory... why we are opting for Python?

Similarly to , there are other softwares like FBW which controls the structure like gear bay etc, which we dont have source code to modify Which is the point i am making out.. to have a silent features like SE we need weapon bay to work along with weapon launching , which is a FBW change.. do you think we have the source code to the same? ... if we had source code we wouldnt have a struggled with LCA... we invented our own algo and maths laws..


Thirdly adding a weapon bay and CFT are surface impact which will affect the flight performance for which we need to have CFD to evaluate the aerodynamic features and fluid mechanics, which is a big impact as it attached to the surface the aircraft where as weapons are attached on hard points, which is a different ball game altogether, thats why super MKI is done in Russia not in our compound

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## HariPrasad

sathya said:


> At least we get another meter length extra in mk 2 , that ll give some space for few gizmos..


 Half meter not one meter


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## trident2010

Best of luck for LCA !!


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## sathya

When we are planning hatch back, we have to compromise boot space..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> where as TOP HMS on MIG 29 is done by French who are working with Mig not with us a new standard architecture agreed between them..



That's wrong and can be easily seen by the fact, that the HMS was integrated "after" the arival in India and most likely by Samtel. The upgrade of the Mig 29 UPG, as well as the later trials that were done in Russia were always made with Russian HMS. Similarly, Israeli pods like the Litenting will be integrated in India too and not by the Russians. So there is no agreement with Mikoayan and the French, the Russians only allowed us to integrate foreign techs and capabilities and unless this addition requires changes at the airframe itself (addition of certain antennas of the EW), that will be done in India an not by the Russians. Btw, we don't integrate Brahmos to MKI, the Russians are doing it and they are doing it not because they can evaluate the changes of flight performance (which NAL could do simply by using windtunnel models as well), but because structural changes at the airframe are neeeded, to carry such weights. Which then again is a change of the fighter itself and not like adding a weapon pod!
Not to mention that the point was, that we did these changes without asking for approval, nor did the French complained about it afterwards, so approval is not an issue, while the lack of space is one!



kingdurgaking said:


> IF that is the case why we are not able to do the R-77 on Tejas? we have the weapon in inventory... why we are opting for Python?



Who said we are not able? The point is rather if its'financially worth it? We have not only to pay for the integration alone, but also would need additional stocks of the missile, but the aim is to replace Russian BVR missiles with Astra. The only reason why IN wanted Derby (not Python V) integrated into NLCA is, that they have the missile already and it has a longer life than the Sea Harriers that are using it today. So it's just logical that they want to integrate that missile as a stop gap, till Astra is ready.
Not to mention that the whole delay of integrating a BVR missile might have less to do with the possible missiles, but with the lack of a capable radar.



kingdurgaking said:


> to have a silent features like SE we need weapon bay to work along with weapon launching



Again, it is not possible to give LCA features like the Silent Eagle, because of the lack of space at LCA as a platform. You might still "hope" for someone to find a solution as you said, but "hope" is not enough and actually caused all the delays of the LCA program. More rational thinking is needed to get things done and seeing LCA as what it really is, a light, low end cost-effective 4th gen fighter, not more, but also not less!
The simple fact that we have to re-design it from MK1 to MK2, just to integrate some more upgrades shows the limitations of it's design and you still think they will do a complete re-design again, to add a limited space weapon bay?

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## MilSpec

Indischer said:


> I think the articles made it clear that ALL Mig21FLs were being decommissioned. Only the Mig21 Bis and Mig21 Bisons will be retained for some more time. Or are you suggesting that although an official ceremony did take place, the FLs will still be flown for some more time?


yes!


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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL gears up for Tejas series production | Record 485 flights logged in 2013*



> *Bangalore: *With barely one more week to go for Tejas to get its second initial operational clearance (IOC-2), the spotlight will move to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the prime player in India’s delayed fighter dream. Close to two generation of designers and manufacturing engineers from HAL and its prime work centre Aircraft Research and Design Center, have worked on the Tejas programme. With the project entering the final operational clearance (FOC) and parallel series production (SP) stages, HAL has its task cut out to deliver the first batch of 40 aircraft in phases. A 28,000 sq feet manufacturing facility has already been commissioned by HAL for the series production.





> Insiders point towards the latest Tejas aircraft (LSP-8) as a testimony to the level of perfection the team achieved. “It has completed 40 flights without any major snag. Post IOC-2, the IAF pilots will continue with their testing and takeover of Tejas, which will eventually replace the MiGs,” a senior official from HAL said.

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## IND151

HAL Gears Up For Tejas Series Rollout | idrw.org


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## Storm Force

Tejas is ready to ROCK AND ROLL my friends

From MIG21 & MIG27s to these And ITS OUR OWN indengious swadeshi fighter

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## SR-91

Storm Force said:


> Tejas is ready to ROCK AND ROLL my friends
> 
> From MIG21 & MIG27s to these And ITS OUR OWN indengious swadeshi fighter






*ITS A PROUD FEELING!!!!*


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## Storm Force

We have a very expensive high maintenance AIR FORCE FLEET like nearly 300 su30mki it will be wise to build 200+ LCA TEJAS that will give us low cost low maintenance fleet options..

I cant wait to see MK2


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## SR-91

Storm Force said:


> We have a very expensive high maintenance AIR FORCE FLEET like nearly 300 su30mki it will be wise to build 200+ LCA TEJAS that will give us low cost low maintenance fleet options..
> 
> I cant wait to see MK2




In a recent interview DRDO chief said IAF will induct over 200 LCA.

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## trident2010

Best of luck Tejas


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## rockstarIN

Everybody is invited...ok?

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## indiatester

rockstarIN said:


> Everybody is invited...ok?



How can I get a pass?


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## SRP

*Hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months.*

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has set up a state-of-the-art facility with some of the best aerospace manufacturing technologies to take up the Tejas series production. With the built-up area of 28,000 sq meters, the Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) has already started the series production of Tejas with the mandate of delivering the first aircraft (SP-1) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2014. The new facility has LCA structural assembly hangar, two flights hangars and machine shops to augment the Tejas production. Backed with a workforce of over 700 personnel, with 80 per cent being in the average age group of 30 years, the set-up has come up with a sanction of approximately Rs 400 crore. Each Tejas platform should cost the IAF around Rs 200 crore. The equipment fitting on SP-1 began this year and 75 per cent of the aircraft structure is already ready. First 20 aircraft will be rolled out in the initial operational clearance configuration, while the next 20 will be in the final operational clearance format. HAL plans to take the production rate to 16 aircraft per year from 2017 onwards.

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## SRP



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## MilSpec

^^^awesome... good to see assym jigs after a long time!!!!



SR-91 said:


> In a recent interview DRDO chief said IAF will induct over 200 LCA.


irrespective of popular views, my sources infer the actual number will be far more in numbers...

LCA mkII with Astra II ,NG-LGB (ADE) would be a sight to see...

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## bloo

*Catch live action from Tejas cockpit on Friday*
Chethan Kumar,TNN | Dec 18, 2013, 05.12 AM IST

BANGALORE: For the first time, agencies involved in designing and developing light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas will display to the country what a pilot can do in its cockpit while the aircraft is in the sky.

Dedicating the aircraft to the nation, National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) pilots will take it to the skies during an official flypast this Friday, marking the second Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of Tejas.

Following this, the aircraft will be tested by IAF pilots and finally deemed fit for induction. This will happen after the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), expected to be achieved in 2015.

"On Friday, giant screens at the HAL airport will stream live videos of action from the cockpit," a senior DRDO official said, adding that the media will be allowed to telecast the same.

This will be the first time that the actual functioning of a pilot from a fighter aircraft will be streamed live to people. "We have come a long way since 1983, when the project was conceived. And we thought the people of the country must know the kind of technology we can boast of today," another official said.

The in-built cameras will provide visuals for the streaming. "We already have images taken during flight tests and other routine sorties in the past decade, but we are attempting to stream it live and show it to people on Friday," he said.

Speaking to TOI from Delhi, a senior official said, "Tejas now meets all the parameters prescribed by the IAF and is ready to be handed over."

Former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, had on January 10, 2011 during IOC-1 said that LCA was not yet a fourth generation aircraft and that there was a long time before he would allow his men to fly it. The IAF had taken several objections to the aircraft and made it clear that it would not take the aircraft without it meeting all service quality requirements (SQRs).

Today, the LCA stands with a better angle of attack, which was only 17-19 degree in 2011. It has been integrated with electronic warfare systems and has met many other requirements the IAF had sought.

* Aug 1983: Rs 560-crore sanctioned for Project Definition

* June 16, 1984: Establishment of ADA

* Mid-1985: ADA begins full-fledged functioning

* 1988: Project Definition completed & proposal sent for project clearance

* 23 June 1993: Rs 2,188-crore including Rs 560-cr sanctioned earlier

* Jan 10, 2001: First Flight of LCA-Tejas

* 25 April, 2007: First flight of Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft

* Jan 10, 2011: First Initial Operational Clearance ( IOC)

* Dec 20, 2013: Second IOC; laying foundation for Final Operational Clearance expected in 2015

Rs 7kcr spent so far

A total of about Rs 7,000 crore has been spent of the project definition, design and development of the Tejas MK-I. Overall, the government has sanctioned close to Rs 24,000 crore for the project. But this will comprise the complete project, including the design, development of LCA MK-II, the cost of the 40 aircraft ordered by the IAF, development of LCA-Navy MK-I and Mk-II.

Link - Catch live action from Tejas cockpit on Friday - The Times of India

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## AnnoyingOrange

bloo said:


> *Catch live action from Tejas cockpit on Friday*
> Chethan Kumar,TNN | Dec 18, 2013, 05.12 AM IST
> 
> BANGALORE: For the first time, agencies involved in designing and developing light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas will display to the country what a pilot can do in its cockpit while the aircraft is in the sky.
> 
> Dedicating the aircraft to the nation, National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) pilots will take it to the skies during an official flypast this Friday, marking the second Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of Tejas.
> 
> Following this, the aircraft will be tested by IAF pilots and finally deemed fit for induction. This will happen after the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), expected to be achieved in 2015.
> 
> "On Friday, giant screens at the HAL airport will stream live videos of action from the cockpit," a senior DRDO official said, adding that the media will be allowed to telecast the same.
> 
> This will be the first time that the actual functioning of a pilot from a fighter aircraft will be streamed live to people. "We have come a long way since 1983, when the project was conceived. And we thought the people of the country must know the kind of technology we can boast of today," another official said.
> 
> The in-built cameras will provide visuals for the streaming. "We already have images taken during flight tests and other routine sorties in the past decade, but we are attempting to stream it live and show it to people on Friday," he said.
> 
> Speaking to TOI from Delhi, a senior official said, "Tejas now meets all the parameters prescribed by the IAF and is ready to be handed over."
> 
> Former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, had on January 10, 2011 during IOC-1 said that LCA was not yet a fourth generation aircraft and that there was a long time before he would allow his men to fly it. The IAF had taken several objections to the aircraft and made it clear that it would not take the aircraft without it meeting all service quality requirements (SQRs).
> 
> Today, the LCA stands with a better angle of attack, which was only 17-19 degree in 2011. It has been integrated with electronic warfare systems and has met many other requirements the IAF had sought.
> 
> * Aug 1983: Rs 560-crore sanctioned for Project Definition
> 
> * June 16, 1984: Establishment of ADA
> 
> * Mid-1985: ADA begins full-fledged functioning
> 
> * 1988: Project Definition completed & proposal sent for project clearance
> 
> * 23 June 1993: Rs 2,188-crore including Rs 560-cr sanctioned earlier
> 
> * Jan 10, 2001: First Flight of LCA-Tejas
> 
> * 25 April, 2007: First flight of Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft
> 
> * Jan 10, 2011: First Initial Operational Clearance ( IOC)
> 
> * Dec 20, 2013: Second IOC; laying foundation for Final Operational Clearance expected in 2015
> 
> Rs 7kcr spent so far
> 
> A total of about Rs 7,000 crore has been spent of the project definition, design and development of the Tejas MK-I. Overall, the government has sanctioned close to Rs 24,000 crore for the project. But this will comprise the complete project, including the design, development of LCA MK-II, the cost of the 40 aircraft ordered by the IAF, development of LCA-Navy MK-I and Mk-II.
> 
> Link - Catch live action from Tejas cockpit on Friday - The Times of India


This is awsme...looking forward to friday...


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## adwityagrata

desert warrior said:


> *Hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months.*
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has set up a state-of-the-art facility with some of the best aerospace manufacturing technologies to take up the Tejas series production. With the built-up area of 28,000 sq meters, the Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) has already started the series production of Tejas with the mandate of delivering the first aircraft (SP-1) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2014. The new facility has LCA structural assembly hangar, two flights hangars and machine shops to augment the Tejas production. Backed with a workforce of over 700 personnel, with 80 per cent being in the average age group of 30 years, the set-up has come up with a sanction of approximately Rs 400 crore. *Each Tejas platform should cost the IAF around Rs 200 crore. * The equipment fitting on SP-1 began this year and 75 per cent of the aircraft structure is already ready. First 20 aircraft will be rolled out in the initial operational clearance configuration, while the next 20 will be in the final operational clearance format. HAL plans to take the production rate to 16 aircraft per year from 2017 onwards.



Each LCA will cost the IAF around 200 Crores which is *32 Million $. * 

This is the best part of the news article. 

This basically means for 3 Billion $ we can have a 100 LCA or for 25 Billion $ we can have * 800 LCA * ..... just saying 

How may Rafale for 25 billion $ ? 126 ?


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## rockstarIN

adwityagrata said:


> Each LCA will cost the IAF around 200 Crores which is *32 Million $. *
> 
> This is the best part of the news article.
> 
> This basically means for 3 Billion $ we can have a 100 LCA or for 25 Billion $ we can have * 800 LCA * ..... just saying
> 
> How may Rafale for 25 billion $ ? 126 ?



I think this is only development cost, production cost to be added extra and the cost per unit will come down when we produce more. 

I think we need to talk to Vietnam or other interested parties now onwards for exports.


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## SR-91

sandy_3126 said:


> ^^^awesome... good to see assym jigs after a long time!!!!
> 
> 
> irrespective of popular views, my sources infer the actual number will be far more in numbers...
> 
> LCA mkII with Astra II ,NG-LGB (ADE) would be a sight to see...



Awesome, 

IAF must be really satisfied with this bird.
How many are far more and which version?


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## MilSpec

rockstarIN said:


> I think this is only development cost, production cost to be added extra and the cost per unit will come down when we produce more.
> 
> I think we need to talk to Vietnam or other interested parties now onwards for exports.


Lets arm IAF first....



SR-91 said:


> Awesome,
> 
> IAF must be really satisfied with this bird.
> How many are far more and which version?


there will be further developments on the Mk2 ... once the development goes to HAL,


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## SR-91

adwityagrata said:


> Each LCA will cost the IAF around 200 Crores which is *32 Million $. *
> 
> This is the best part of the news article.
> 
> This basically means for 3 Billion $ we can have a 100 LCA or for 25 Billion $ we can have * 800 LCA * ..... just saying
> 
> How may Rafale for 25 billion $ ? 126 ?




From where are you getting this remarkable number of 25 billion?



sandy_3126 said:


> Lets arm IAF first....
> 
> 
> there will be further developments on the Mk2 ... once the development goes to HAL,



What kind of further development bro? You got me excited now.


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## shree835

*Tejas Hangar Goes Live; First Aircraft in 3 Months*

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has set up a state-of-the-art facility equipped with some of the best aerospace manufacturing technologies to take up the Tejas series production. With a built-up area of 28,000 sq m, the Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) has already started the series production of Tejas with the mandate of delivering the first aircraft (SP-1) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2014.

The new facility has LCA structural assembly hangar, two flights hangars and machine shops to augment the Tejas production. Backed with a workforce of over 700 personnel, with 80 per cent being in the average age group of 30 years, the set-up has come up with a sanction of approximately Rs. 400 crore.

Each Tejas platform should cost the IAF around Rs. 200 crore. The equipment fitting on SP-1 began this year and 75 per cent of the aircraft structure is already ready.

First 20 aircraft will be rolled out in the initial operational clearance configuration, while the next 20 will be in the final operational clearance format.

The HAL plans to take the production rate to 16 aircraft per year from 2017 onwards. The facility will be upgraded to a major manufacturing complex consisting of sheet metal shop, process shop and heat treatment shop.

Additional hangars are also coming up for support and maintenance, with further augmentation in the pipeline to accommodate the Tejas trainers and naval variant.

All hangars are equipped with forced draft systems to maintain dust, humidity and temperature control.

The HAL has given the mandate to head the new facility to V Sridharan, who has worked extensively on Jaguar and Hawk programmes.

“We have embedded the Tejas production with best lean practices in manufacturing. Maintaining highest quality standards have been the driving philosophy behind, while setting up this unit,” HAL chairman R K Tyagi told Express from Delhi.

Batting for the private industry, the HAL said a total of 9,362 fabricated parts will be manufactured by its external supply chain. “This step is critical in propelling HAL as a lead integrator in the national aerospace ecosystem,” Tyagi said.

A gen-next 5-axis CNC machine installed at the facility is capable of robotically undertaking the wing skin drilling, thereby reducing the turnaround time by 80 per cent. The manufacturing jigs have been calibrated with computer-aided laser tracker to 80 micron tolerance. The manufacturing shop has been equipped with appropriate CAD software for working with digital mockup features.

To aid the IAF’s Tejas squadron formation and associated flight operations, the HAL has built a brand new 5000 sq m tarmac right next to the manufacturing hangar.

The flightline group from the new Tejas facility has supported six detachments (outstation trials)this year. The Tejas variants have also logged the highest ever number of flights (485) this year.

Tejas Hangar Goes Live; First Aircraft in 3 Months -The New Indian Express

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## IND151

Clearing Lca-Tejas Flight Test Parameters was a Challenge, Says Airworthiness Centre | idrw.org


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## HariPrasad

IND151 said:


> Clearing Lca-Tejas Flight Test Parameters was a Challenge, Says Airworthiness Centre | idrw.org




AOA was increased from 17* to 22* and it can touch 24*

I like that part most. I expect 26* to 28* in FOC.

Mach 1.4 speed is disappointing. How ever Mach has 2 parameter. Some body consider 1067 KMPH while others consider 1230 KMPH. I hope it is second case. Ajay shukla had mentioned that it easily flies at 1699 KM/ hr. I hope that it has increased since than. I expect to touch 1920 KMPH , its design speed.


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## rockstarIN

SP-1 work in progress..!!

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## HariPrasad

sandy_3126 said:


> ^^^awesome... good to see assym jigs after a long time!!!!
> 
> 
> irrespective of popular views, my sources infer the actual number will be far more in numbers...
> 
> LCA mkII with Astra II ,NG-LGB (ADE) would be a sight to see...




You won't see AESA but it will be very important as well. Only Kaveri is lacking. Come Kaveri come.


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## Manindra

HariPrasad said:


> AOA was increased from 17* to 22* and it can touch 24*
> 
> I like that part most. I expect 26* to 28* in FOC.
> 
> Mach 1.4 speed is disappointing. How ever Mach has 2 parameter. Some body consider 1067 KMPH while others consider 1230 KMPH. I hope it is second case. Ajay shukla had mentioned that it easily flies at 1699 KM/ hr. I hope that it has increased since than. I expect to touch 1920 KMPH , its design speed.


 1 Mach = 1225 KMPH


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## HariPrasad

Manindra said:


> 1 Mach = 1225 KMPH




Pl check WIKI it writes 1.8 mach (1920 KMPH). Ajay shukla wrote 1.6 mach (1699 KMPH). There are different version. I do not know why.


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## Manindra

HariPrasad said:


> Pl check WIKI it writes 1.8 mach (1920 KMPH). Ajay shukla wrote 1.6 mach (1699 KMPH). There are different version. I do not know why.


1 mach = speed of sound in a hour
Mach to Kilometers per hour


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## adwityagrata

SR-91 said:


> From where are you getting this remarkable number of 25 billion?



Does 25 billion $ sound remarkable to you ? How about 26 billion $ ? what about 24 billion $ ?


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## thesolar65

Well, After two days much talking and discussions about LCA will be over after it goes into production mode and FOC. Now the focus will shift to LCA MK-II with GE-414 engines. My question is to all the experts *"Will the Aircrafts that were flying for test purpose (i.e TDs, PVs, NPs and LSPs) be grounded or will they be transferred to IAF as operational fighters or what will be they used for?*

*Secondly is there any chance that any one or two planes out of these will be fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose and see the result of that engine (I think we have at least nine engines)?* The Engine was tested in Russia but not fitted in any Tejas TDs. Because I have a hunch that it might give good result by actually testing it by fitting it to Tech demonstrators, just a thought!!

@HariPrasad @sandy_3126 @Dash @Abingdonboy @adwityagrata @IND151 @sancho


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## shree835

thesolar65 said:


> Well, After two days much talking and discussions about LCA will be over after it goes into production mode and FOC. Now the focus will shift to LCA MK-II with GE-414 engines. My question is to all the experts *"Will the Aircrafts that were flying for test purpose (i.e TDs, PVs, NPs and LSPs) be grounded or will they be transferred to IAF as operational fighters or what will be they used for?*
> 
> *Secondly is there any chance that any one or two planes out of these will be fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose and see the result of that engine (I think we have at least nine engines)?* The Engine was tested in Russia but not fitted in any Tejas TDs. Because I have a hunch that it might give good result by actually testing it by fitting it to Tech demonstrators, just a thought!!
> 
> @HariPrasad @sandy_3126 @Dash @Abingdonboy @adwityagrata @IND151



There is LCA fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose...on the same Aircraft new avionics is going to be tested.

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## scientien

HariPrasad said:


> Pl check WIKI it writes 1.8 mach (1920 KMPH). Ajay shukla wrote 1.6 mach (1699 KMPH). There are different version. I do not know why.


Dear dude,
speed of sound is give by equation c=Square root(k/rho) where, k=Bulk modulus and rho=Density of Fluid.
But, Density of fluid changes with respect to pressure because by ideal gas law states that p=rho*r*t
where p=pressure,rho=density,r=gas constant and t=temperature in Kelvin.
but the pressure changes with respect to altitude and is give by, p=-(rho*g*z) where p=pressure,rho=density and z=Height,g=Gravitational Acceleration;
as the altitude increases pressure decreases,decreasing the density and thus cancelling out each other and hence no effect on Ideal Gas(AIR), BUT,
as we know 
c=Square root(k/rho) and k=gamma*pressure where gamma=adiabatic index and is further given by 
gamma=cp/cv;
cp=specific heat at constant pressure and cv=specific heat at constant volume;
so all in all the Speed of sound depends upon cp and cv which depends on temperature. But temperature depends upon Altitude it decreases for Troposphere and stays constant after tropopause till 20km;
so from 0-11km speed of sound decreases decreasing Mach number and after 11km to 20km it remains constant;
in Aeronautics specially for airplane design we consider altitude only from 0km to 22km.
Thanks.

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> LCA mkII with Astra II ,NG-LGB (ADE) would be *a sight to see*...



Yes, but prefering to see indigenous stuff is one thing, using them for the defence of the country another, which is dependent on the capability they offer and that is required by the forces. LCA MK2 is not as capable as Rafale, MKI, let alone FGFA, Astra 2 and Sudarshan LGB are aimed on the performance of currently available AAMs or LGBs, while METEOR, coming R77, Derby varients, upgrades of MICA will be ahead, just like foreign LGBs/PGMs. So it will be good to see LCA, Astra and Sudarshan, the defence of the country requires more than that!


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## IND151

shree835 said:


> *There is LCA fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose*...on the same Aircraft new avionics is going to be tested.



Kindly provide source for this


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## sancho

thesolar65 said:


> Secondly is there any chance that any one or two planes out of these will be fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose and see the result of that engine (I think we have at least nine engines)? The Engine was tested in Russia but not fitted in any Tejas TDs. Because I have a hunch that it might give good result by actually testing it by fitting it to Tech demonstrators, just a thought!!



LCA will be fitted with Kaveri sooner or later, but mainly for integration and ground tests. The reports from october said, that the next trials would be at Russian the IL 76 again and possibly Mig 29s (next to 1 x RD33). 
We have to continue the engine developments, but also be more realistic about it's possible use, so don't expect it to be fitted into LCA anytime soon. The aim must be upgrading Mig 29K and LCA MK1 (if not replaced by MK2s) and not the integration into MK2.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> *LCA will be fitted with Kaveri sooner or later, but mainly for integration and ground tests. The reports from october said, that the next trials would be at Russian the IL 76 again and possibly Mig 29s (next to 1 x RD33). *
> We have to continue the engine developments, but also be more realistic about it's possible use, so don't expect it to be fitted into LCA anytime soon. The aim must be upgrading Mig 29K and LCA MK1 (if not replaced by MK2s) and not the integration into MK2.



Kindly give source for this.


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## thesolar65

sancho said:


> LCA will be fitted with Kaveri sooner or later, but mainly for integration and ground tests. The reports from october said, that the next trials would be at Russian the IL 76 again and possibly Mig 29s (next to 1 x RD33).
> We have to continue the engine developments, but also be more realistic about it's possible use, so don't expect it to be fitted into LCA anytime soon. The aim must be upgrading Mig 29K and LCA MK1 (if not replaced by MK2s) and not the integration into MK2.



OK what about 1st question? What to do with TDs,PVs etc?


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> Kindly give source for this.





> ...Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engine’s performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards...



New tailwinds for Kaveri engine - The Hindu



thesolar65 said:


> OK what about 1st question? What to do with TDs,PVs etc?



They still will be used for flight, tech or upgrade tests, but not for operational service.

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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Yes, but prefering to see indigenous stuff is one thing, using them for the defence of the country another, which is dependent on the capability they offer and that is required by the forces. LCA MK2 is not as capable as Rafale, MKI, let alone FGFA, Astra 2 and Sudarshan LGB are aimed on the performance of currently available AAMs or LGBs, while METEOR, coming R77, Derby varients, upgrades of MICA will be ahead, just like foreign LGBs/PGMs. So it will be good to see LCA, Astra and Sudarshan, the defence of the country requires more than that!


assumption being all mentioned munitions comparable to videsi maal


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## SR-91

adwityagrata said:


> Does 25 billion $ sound remarkable to you ? How about 26 billion $ ? what about 24 billion $ ?




If you don't know, don't post. Simple


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## Dazzler

shree835 said:


> There is LCA fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose...on the same Aircraft new avionics is going to be tested.



Thats strange, kaveri is not a certified engine and still undergoing tests, why would they test it on tejas?


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## Robinhood Pandey

Tejas gears up for test flight tomorrow - The Hindu

LCA Tejas, the first made-in-India lightweight fighter plane, has been audibly scorching the Bangalore skies several times over the last few days as it heads for its first-stage flight approval or initial operational certification (IOC) on Friday.

Every day, two to three aircraft have been flying from among the eight limited editions produced for trials, said a senior official involved in the development.

The Light Combat Aircraft completed nearly 500 flights this year compared to over 250 last year. So far, it has made over 2,400 flights since it started flying in 2001.

Everyone is geared up, especially the test pilots who on that day will fly the aircraft in the presence of Defence Minister A.K. Antony, user IAF’s Chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne and developer agency DRDO’s Director-General Avinash Chander.

*“Challenging task”*
The run-up to this level of certification was challenging, said K.Tamilmani, Director-General R&D Aero and head of the military airworthiness certifying agency CEMILAC under the DRDO.

The LCA’s fly-by-wire systems, its glass cockpit among others, were new to the CEMILAC team but it learnt along with the development process. “Today we have a base available in terms of knowledge, procedure and certification. This will be useful for LCA versions of the Navy, trainer and Mark II, as well as the proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. There is a new confidence in the team,” he told _The Hindu_.

The IOC was split into two phases and the first partial certification was given in January 2011. This week’s IOC-2 will complete the rest of the requirements and enable IAF pilots to fully start flying the fighter.

The fighter will be inducted after it gets the final operational certification or FOC, slated for December 2014.

The LCA has been developed by the multi-agency Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) set up under the Ministry of Defence in 1984. The National Flight Test Centre under ADA coordinates the test flights — as it will do on Friday.

The IAF plans to raise a fleet of some 200 LCAs over the coming years. The planes will be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Since IOC-1, the plane has passed multiple weapon release trials, including the recent missile firing. It has been exposed to various air fields, cold Leh and hot Nagpur. The radar and systems are being constantly improved.

Air Chief reviews proposed first base for Tejas LCA

New Delhi: Outgoing IAF chief NAK Browne on Wednesday reviewed the progress of the Sulur air base where the force is to deploy its first squadron of the indigenously- developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas.

On his last visit to the Southern Air Command in Thiruvananthapuram, Browne also reviewed the preparations being made at Thanjavur air base in Tamil Nadu, which will host the first squadron of Su-30MKI aircraft in southern India to guard the Indian Ocean Region.

"During the visit, the Air Chief reviewed the progress of the first LCA base at Sulur and also the progress of work services at Thanjavur, which will be the next base for Su-30s," the IAF said in a release.


Talking to air force personnel, Browne said, "IAF is going through tremendous changes in terms of induction, modernisation and improvement. We had set very ambitious goals over the last two-and-a-half years and we have been able to achieve each one of them".

In the last three to four years, India has procured a lot of equipment for the Air Force, including the C-17 heavylift transport aircraft, Pilatus trainer aircraft. The indigenous LCA is to be inducted on December 20.

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## shree835

IND151 said:


> Kindly provide source for this



After haggling for over eight years, it has been finally decided to instal the electronic systems on the LCA prototype Version-1. But there’s a catch here. The PV-1 has not flown for very long and has been parked in the hangar with later versions of the LCA undertaking the test flights. The PV-1, which began flights in around 2001-02, has completed 242 test flights after which it has been grounded. Now, there is a bit of anxiety about how an aircraft that has not done flights for long will perform with the new electronic warfare systems.

Finally, Tejas gets electronic warfare systems


Mentioned PV1 is fitted with Kaveri Engine...As I know PV1 will be kept active for all the test.


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## shree835

*PEARLS & HEROES of TEJAS*

“My father is 80 years old and he reads all the newspapers and updates me about the happenings around aviation. I leave home at 6 am every day and return by around 7 pm. Close to over two decades, life has been a great challenge dealing with some complex issues in aeronautics. Finding solutions and getting them accepted is some task in our profession. But, it gives a great sense of satisfaction,” says S K Chandrka, DGM (Electrical and Avionics), Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), a prominent unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). “There have been some sleepless nights. I remember once a wire got inside the aircraft and I was really restless till we found the reason,” says Chandrika, with over 26 years of experience.

City Express caught up with some of the women designers from ARDC, working with India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme, to capture their mood ahead of the initial operational clearance (IOC) event scheduled to be held in the city on December 20. Despite being their first interaction with media in their career, these women showed little hesitation in replying to the queries. K Sharadha, AGM, Flight Test Centre who has close to 30 years of experience at HAL, said that the family support played a crucial role during all these years of hard work and toil, in realising the national dream called Tejas. “I was involved with the programme from 1995 and was part of the team that set up the infrastructure, telemetry ground stations and configuration of flight test instrumentation. My family was aware of the critical nature of my job and they stood rock solid behind me,” says Sharadha a native of Tamil Nadu.

Hailing from Mangalore, Sumana Prakash, is a Chief Manger (Design) with two decades of expertise in aeronautics. She was part of the Tejas programme right from the first day of her joining HAL. The project just completed the drawing stages and the prototype was getting ready. “It is really a matter of pride being associated with Tejas and I am part of the electrical design team. I have gone for outstation trials to Leh and life throws up many challenges. I am also part of some of the future programmes of HAL. Being a woman, I need to make adjustments to my family life. Sometimes my children get upset with me for being on the phone even while at home, clarifying some test points with my colleagues,” says Sumana.

Leaving a lucrative job with ABB, Rashmi Joshi, Manager (Electrical Design), joined HAL in 2001 and has been part of the Tejas project for the last 12 years. She has travelled to France on work and says that the job satisfaction is tremendous. “Nothing can match the thrill of taking challenges head on. Tejas wiring is really extreme with around 12,000 points. Life has become interesting with so many modifications being done to Tejas,” says Rashmi, hailing from Nagpur. Her colleague S Meena, Manager (Electrical Design) had to stay away from family for close to 10 months, while she was sent on a deputation to Russia. “I had to take my son and mother along with me. Life was different in Russia and I learnt Russian as well. The varied experiences have boosted my self confidence,” says Rashmi, hailing from Thirvananthapuram.

When asked about their views on being in a male-dominated domain and the difficulties they are facing in executing, everyone was all praise for their male colleagues. “We have come this far with their support as well. The team I handle have only two women and the rest are all men. I found no problems. Just that, I switch off my family matters completely when I am at work. Aircraft designers need to be emotionless when they deal with intense programmes such as Tejas,” says Veena B, DGM (Prototype Assembly), who hails from Mysore.

Some of the designers came to the Tejas programme with rich experience of HAL's other projects like the Dhruv. Alakananda Suri, Manager (Iron Bird) from Lucknow joined HAL in 2000 and was put to Tejas project in 2011. As a Project Manager with HAL, she worked on a transfer of technology from Sagem (France). “It is a highly satisfying job and we were under tremendous pressure ahead of the IOC-2. The team work has been outstanding,” she sad. The women brigade felt that it is because of the test facilities like the Iron Bird and the rigourous testing philosophy adopted, Tejas had thankfully not seen a single accident so far, unlike almost all the similar programs running worldwide.

Emphasising on absolute team spirit, Kalaivani D, a Deputy Manager (Electrical and Avionics) felt that in the design stream each and everyone work as one, shedding their grades and ranks. “We are so focussed towards achieving one milestone after another. It is a dream come true for all of us to see that Tejas is finally getting into an induction stage,” says Kalaivani, who hails from Namakkal. “We are the real pearls of HAL,” she adds, and the entire group bursts out laughing.

While the women completed their media mission and got back to their world of design, there was another group waiting in the wings for an interaction at the Prototype Flight Hangar - the men.

They were from the shop-floor, the real unsung heroes of Tejas project. No cameras have ever chased them. They come to work at times as early as 3 am to keep Tejas ready for the pilots to undertake the flight trials.

Avinash Kumar (34) is a manager at the flight hangar who is with Tejas for past 11 years. “I am from Delhi and I've always wanted to be a part of the aviation industry. It is a great thrill to prepare Tejas for the flight, handling the snags and finally positioning the aircraft on the tarmac. My team consists of 50 people and we manage three aircraft. Never was there any dull moment for me since I joined the Tejas team,” says Avinash. Echoing his views was S K Tripathi (52), senior master technician, who joined HAL in 2003 with a 20 years of experience working with the Indian Air Force. “My memorable moment was during the first flight of PV-5. It is a wonderful machine. Every time the aircraft takes off, it give immense happiness. I have accompanied Tejas to Goa, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer and Leh. It feels like taking our children for some entrance test,” says Tripathi, who comes from Lucknow.

Being a rescue driver hailing from Tumkur, Balasubramaniam (35), plays a key role in ground support vehicle activities. He says for the last 10 years, he couldn't have asked for more, with the kind of exposure he got in dealing with different situations. “Even my relatives, family and friends are really happy that I am part of India's prestigious project,” says Balasubramaniam. According to K Vijayan (54), hailing from Kerala, the Tejas team overcame many hurdles by coordination with the designers. “We undertook lot of corrective measures and though we are from shop floor, some of our suggestions are also taken into consideration,” says Vijayan, an ex-IAF man, with 15 years of experience in HAL.

Similarly, Mohd Imtiaz (40), a technician, tells that plugging the snags is something he always enjoyed, while Shivkumar B H (42), a Senior Manager (Quality Assurance), says that to update new technology was a Herculan task. “We had to train the people so that they could handle the aircraft at ground level, independently,” he says. Veeraiah (40), a Manager (Quality Assurance), emphasised how his team stuck to the safety features of the aircraft. “If something goes wrong, everyone will point fingers at us as we are the clearing wing. We will have to be available when pilots does the debriefing sessions,” he says.

While these backroom boys were readying themselves to get a Tejas PV-3 ready for the flight, P G Jayan, DGM, Integration & Project Manager (LCA Mk-1), joined the discussion with his final words. “These are the true heroes of Tejas programme. The souls on the shop floor make things happen. There are days when they have worked for 16 hours. Having a great team is the biggest award you can get,” says Jayan, who have logged 28 years in HAL.

As we wound up, the pilot of Tejas PV-3 was throttling up for another sky party.

PEARLS & HEROES of TEJAS -The New Indian Express


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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> Thats strange, kaveri is not a certified engine and still undergoing tests, why would they test it on tejas?


Which agency certifies engines?


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## shree835

Dazzler said:


> Thats strange, kaveri is not a certified engine and still undergoing tests, why would they test it on tejas?


Coz , Still we did not give up.


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## HariPrasad

scientien said:


> Dear dude,
> speed of sound is give by equation c=Square root(k/rho) where, k=Bulk modulus and rho=Density of Fluid.
> But, Density of fluid changes with respect to pressure because by ideal gas law states that p=rho*r*t
> where p=pressure,rho=density,r=gas constant and t=temperature in Kelvin.
> but the pressure changes with respect to altitude and is give by, p=-(rho*g*z) where p=pressure,rho=density and z=Height,g=Gravitational Acceleration;
> as the altitude increases pressure decreases,decreasing the density and thus cancelling out each other and hence no effect on Ideal Gas(AIR), BUT,
> as we know
> c=Square root(k/rho) and k=gamma*pressure where gamma=adiabatic index and is further given by
> gamma=cp/cv;
> cp=specific heat at constant pressure and cv=specific heat at constant volume;
> so all in all the Speed of sound depends upon cp and cv which depends on temperature. But temperature depends upon Altitude it decreases for Troposphere and stays constant after tropopause till 20km;
> so from 0-11km speed of sound decreases decreasing Mach number and after 11km to 20km it remains constant;
> in Aeronautics specially for airplane design we consider altitude only from 0km to 22km.
> Thanks.




Thank you very much dear. Excellent post. I have never read such a beautiful post in first post at PDF. You are well come and we look forward to a meaningful discussion on this forum. We hope to learn something from you.

Well come again.



scientien said:


> in Aeronautics specially for airplane design we consider altitude only from 0km to 22km.
> Thanks.




Obviously, because no Plane can travel above 22 KM. So velocity of sound will be less in High dense air and thus 1067 KMPH figures appears to be more realistic.

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## HariPrasad

shree835 said:


> There is LCA fitted with Kaveri Engine for test purpose...on the same Aircraft new avionics is going to be tested.




PV 1 was planned to be fitted with Kaveri. (it is said that with Kaveri, Lca will be able to perform 80% of flight envelop)

LSP 7 and LSP 8 were planned to be handed over to IAF.



Manindra said:


> 1 mach = speed of sound in a hour
> Mach to Kilometers per hour



Pl read this post.

LCA News & Discussions | Page 417


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## sudhir007

Last Flight test update from IOC-2:
From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2439 Test Flights Successfully. (09-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-378,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-177,LSP4-102,LSP5-237,LSP7-76,NP1-6,LSP8-62)

To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2448 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-380*,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,*LSP3-180*,LSP4-102,*LSP5-240,LSP7-77*,NP1-6,LSP8-62)


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## bloo

* Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC *




*By Anantha Krishnan M*

*Express News Service*
Bangalore: The Tejas fighter will have to cross 6 milestones in the next 15 months before the aircraft is given the final operational clearance (FOC). Tomorrow's (December 20) initial operational clearance (IOC) event, ahead of the expected induction of the first series production aircraft into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2013, would pave way for the IAF pilots to undertake independent flight evaluation of Tejas.
Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO and Chief Executive Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, told Express that the integration of new missiles identified by the IAF will top the agenda in the FOC phase. “The aerodynamics, structures and the integration of the missiles with the radar are important events for Tejas now. We need to evolve the algorithm,” Tamil Mani said. The beyond visual range (BVR) missiles from Israel – Derby and Python -- with a range of 70 km and each weighing 150 kg, have been identified for Tejas.
The Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun is the next in line to be integrated on the aircraft. Capable of firing at 3600 to 4000 rpm, the integration of this gun is seen as a challenge considering the vibrations involved during action. “Lots of surrounding LRUs need to be certified again for higher level of vibration. Ground firing or butt firing needs to be done initially before getting the gun onboard Tejas. The projectile speed of the gun is around 750 meter per second,” he said.
Tejas will also have an air-to-air refuelling probe (Cobham, UK) in the FOC configuration. “We have started the integration work. Similar work was done on Jaguar and AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) platform. We have the expertise now,” he said. The Tejas will also increase the angle of attack (AoA) from 22 to 24 degrees enabling the pilot to go for care-free manouvering.
The braking system of Tejas will also need to be improved. “The heat capacity needs to be increased. Else we will have to put a better cooling mechanism for the brakes, similar to the fans in the MiGs,” Tamil Mani said.
The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.
*Copyright@The New Indian Express*

*Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC*

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## he-man

bloo said:


> * Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By Anantha Krishnan M*
> 
> *Express News Service*
> Bangalore: The Tejas fighter will have to cross 6 milestones in the next 15 months before the aircraft is given the final operational clearance (FOC). Tomorrow's (December 20) initial operational clearance (IOC) event, ahead of the expected induction of the first series production aircraft into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2013, would pave way for the IAF pilots to undertake independent flight evaluation of Tejas.
> Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO and Chief Executive Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, told Express that the integration of new missiles identified by the IAF will top the agenda in the FOC phase. “The aerodynamics, structures and the integration of the missiles with the radar are important events for Tejas now. We need to evolve the algorithm,” Tamil Mani said. The beyond visual range (BVR) missiles from Israel – Derby and Python -- with a range of 70 km and each weighing 150 kg, have been identified for Tejas.
> The Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun is the next in line to be integrated on the aircraft. Capable of firing at 3600 to 4000 rpm, the integration of this gun is seen as a challenge considering the vibrations involved during action. “Lots of surrounding LRUs need to be certified again for higher level of vibration. Ground firing or butt firing needs to be done initially before getting the gun onboard Tejas. The projectile speed of the gun is around 750 meter per second,” he said.
> Tejas will also have an air-to-air refuelling probe (Cobham, UK) in the FOC configuration. “We have started the integration work. Similar work was done on Jaguar and AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) platform. We have the expertise now,” he said. The Tejas will also increase the angle of attack (AoA) from 22 to 24 degrees enabling the pilot to go for care-free manouvering.
> The braking system of Tejas will also need to be improved. “The heat capacity needs to be increased. Else we will have to put a better cooling mechanism for the brakes, similar to the fans in the MiGs,” Tamil Mani said.
> The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.
> *Copyright@The New Indian Express*
> 
> *Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC*




what the hell??

range of 45-50 km upgarded to 80??

even jf-17's klj-7 has more range than that!!

and i thought el/m 2032 has 120 km range!!is there something wrong with our radome material??


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## SRP

he-man said:


> what the hell??
> 
> 
> and i thought el/m 2032 has 120 km range!!is there something wrong with our *radome material*??



Yes. Thats why they are improving it.


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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> what the hell??
> 
> range of 45-50 km upgarded to 80??
> 
> even jf-17's klj-7 has more range than that!!
> 
> and i thought el/m 2032 has 120 km range!!is there something wrong with our radome material??




Range depends on target it tracks. ELTA's range is 120 KM (Some say 148 KM) for 2 SQM target. When scientist say that they want improve it to 80 KM it will certainly be for a small target.

Inspite of improving Radom material, new design radome is also planned.


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## he-man

HariPrasad said:


> Range depends on target it tracks. ELTA's range is 120 KM (Some say 148 KM) for 2 SQM target. When scientist say that they want improve it to 80 KM it will certainly be for a small target.



but all ranges are meant for a 3-5 m2 target generally
if they don't clarify it will be taken as such


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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> but all ranges are meant for a 3-5 m2 target generally
> if they don't clarify it will be taken as such




What is 3 to 5 ? it should either 3 or 5? it can not be same for 3 and 5.

For Elta, it is 120 KM for 2 SQ m target air to air mode. 300 KM for see target and 150 KM for land based target.


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## RPK

Bangalore: The Tejas fighter will have to cross 6 milestones in the next 15 months before the aircraft is given the final operational clearance (FOC). Tomorrow's (December 20) initial operational clearance (IOC) event, ahead of the expected induction of the first series production aircraft into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2013, would pave way for the IAF pilots to undertake independent flight evaluation of Tejas.
Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO and Chief Executive Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, told Express that the integration of new missiles identified by the IAF will top the agenda in the FOC phase. “The aerodynamics, structures and the integration of the missiles with the radar are important events for Tejas now. We need to evolve the algorithm,” Tamil Mani said. The beyond visual range (BVR) missiles from Israel – Derby and Python -- with a range of 70 km and each weighing 150 kg, have been identified for Tejas.
The Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun is the next in line to be integrated on the aircraft. Capable of firing at 3600 to 4000 rpm, the integration of this gun is seen as a challenge considering the vibrations involved during action. “Lots of surrounding LRUs need to be certified again for higher level of vibration. Ground firing or butt firing needs to be done initially before getting the gun onboard Tejas. The projectile speed of the gun is around 750 meter per second,” he said.
Tejas will also have an air-to-air refuelling probe (Cobham, UK) in the FOC configuration. “We have started the integration work. Similar work was done on Jaguar and AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) platform. We have the expertise now,” he said. The Tejas will also increase the angle of attack (AoA) from 22 to 24 degrees enabling the pilot to go for care-free manouvering.
The braking system of Tejas will also need to be improved. “The heat capacity needs to be increased. Else we will have to put a better cooling mechanism for the brakes, similar to the fans in the MiGs,” Tamil Mani said.
The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.


Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC

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## he-man

HariPrasad said:


> What is 3 to 5 ? it should either 3 or 5? it can not be same for 3 and 5.
> 
> For Elta, it is 120 KM for 2 SQ m target air to air mode. 300 KM for see target and 150 KM for land based target.


 i know that

but till they specify clearly we can only guess.

looks like radome is pretty bad


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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> i know that
> 
> but till they specify clearly we can only guess.
> 
> looks like radome is pretty bad




absolutely right.


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## IND151

“My father is 80 years old and he reads all the newspapers and updates me about the happenings around aviation. I leave home at 6 am every day and return by around 7 pm. Close to over two decades, life has been a great challenge dealing with some complex issues in aeronautics. Finding solutions and getting them accepted is some task in our profession. But, it gives a great sense of satisfaction,” says S K Chandrka, DGM (Electrical and Avionics), Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), a prominent unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). “There have been some sleepless nights. I remember once a wire got inside the aircraft and I was really restless till we found the reason,” says Chandrika, with over 26 years of experience.

*City Express caught up with some of the women designers from ARDC, working with India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme, to capture their mood ahead of the initial operational clearance (IOC) event scheduled to be held in the city on December 20*. Despite being their first interaction with media in their career, these women showed little hesitation in replying to the queries. K Sharadha, AGM, Flight Test Centre who has close to 30 years of experience at HAL, said that the family support played a crucial role during all these years of hard work and toil, in realizing the national dream called Tejas. “I was involved with the programme from 1995 and was part of the team that set up the infrastructure, telemetry ground stations and configuration of flight test instrumentation. My family was aware of the critical nature of my job and they stood rock solid behind me,” says Sharadha a native of Tamil Nadu.

Hailing from Mangalore, Sumana Prakash, is a Chief Manger (Design) with two decades of expertise in aeronautics. She was part of the Tejas programme right from the first day of her joining HAL. The project just completed the drawing stages and the prototype was getting ready. “*It is really a matter of pride being associated with Tejas and I am part of the electrical design team. I have gone for outstation trials to Leh and life throws up many challenges. I am also part of some of the future programmes of HAL. Being a woman, I need to make adjustments to my family life. Sometimes my children get upset with me for being on the phone even while at home, clarifying some test points with my colleagues*,” says Sumana.

Leaving a lucrative job with ABB, Rashmi Joshi, Manager (Electrical Design), joined HAL in 2001 and has been part of the Tejas project for the last 12 years. She has travelled to France on work and says that the job satisfaction is tremendous. “Nothing can match the thrill of taking challenges head on. *Tejas wiring is really extreme with around 12,000 points. Life has become interesting with so many modifications being done to Tejas*,” says Rashmi, hailing from Nagpur. Her colleague S Meena, Manager (Electrical Design) had to stay away from family for close to 10 months, while she was sent on a deputation to Russia. “I had to take my son and mother along with me. Life was different in Russia and I learnt Russian as well. The varied experiences have boosted my self confidence,” says Rashmi, hailing from Thirvananthapuram.

When asked about their views on being in a male-dominated domain and the difficulties they are facing in executing, everyone was all praise for their male colleagues. “We have come this far with their support as well. The team I handle have only two women and the rest are all men. I found no problems. Just that, I switch off my family matters completely when I am at work. Aircraft designers need to be emotionless when they deal with intense programmes such as Tejas,” says Veena B, DGM (Prototype Assembly), who hails from Mysore.

Some of the designers came to the Tejas programme with rich experience of HAL's other projects like the Dhruv. Alakananda Suri, Manager (Iron Bird) from Lucknow joined HAL in 2000 and was put to Tejas project in 2011. As a Project Manager with HAL, she worked on a transfer of technology from Sagem (France). “It is a highly satisfying job and we were under tremendous pressure ahead of the IOC-2. The team work has been outstanding,” she sad.* The women brigade felt that it is because of the test facilities like the Iron Bird and the rigourous testing philosophy adopted, Tejas had thankfully not seen a single accident so far*, unlike almost all the similar programs running worldwide.

Emphasising on absolute team spirit, Kalaivani D, a Deputy Manager (Electrical and Avionics) felt that in the design stream each and everyone work as one, shedding their grades and ranks. “We are so focussed towards achieving one milestone after another. It is a dream come true for all of us to see that Tejas is finally getting into an induction stage,” says Kalaivani, who hails from Namakkal. “We are the real pearls of HAL,” she adds, and the entire group bursts out laughing.

While the women completed their media mission and got back to their world of design,* there was another group waiting in the wings for an interaction at the Prototype Flight Hangar - the men.*

They were from the shop-floor, *the real unsung heroes of Tejas project*. No cameras have ever chased them.* They come to work at times as early as 3 am to keep Tejas ready for the pilots to undertake the flight trials.*

Avinash Kumar (34) is a manager at the flight hangar who is with Tejas for past 11 years. *“I am from Delhi and I've always wanted to be a part of the aviation industry. It is a great thrill to prepare Tejas for the flight, handling the snags and finally positioning the aircraft on the tarmac. My team consists of 50 people and we manage three aircraft. Never was there any dull moment for me since I joined the Tejas team*,” says Avinash. Echoing his views was S K Tripathi (52), senior master technician, who joined HAL in 2003 with a 20 years of experience working with the Indian Air Force. “My memorable moment was during the first flight of PV-5. It is a wonderful machine. Every time the aircraft takes off, it give immense happiness. I have accompanied Tejas to Goa, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer and Leh. It feels like taking our children for some entrance test,” says Tripathi, who comes from Lucknow.

Being a rescue driver hailing from Tumkur, Balasubramaniam (35), plays a key role in ground support vehicle activities. He says for the last 10 years, he couldn't have asked for more, with the kind of exposure he got in dealing with different situations. “Even my relatives, family and friends are really happy that I am part of India's prestigious project,” says Balasubramaniam. According to K Vijayan (54), hailing from Kerala, the Tejas team overcame many hurdles by coordination with the designers. “We undertook lot of corrective measures and though we are from shop floor, some of our suggestions are also taken into consideration,” says Vijayan, an ex-IAF man, with 15 years of experience in HAL.

Similarly, Mohd Imtiaz (40), a technician, tells that plugging the snags is something he always enjoyed, while Shivkumar B H (42), a Senior Manager (Quality Assurance), says that to update new technology was a Herculan task. “We had to train the people so that they could handle the aircraft at ground level, independently,” he says. Veeraiah (40), a Manager (Quality Assurance), emphasised how his team stuck to the safety features of the aircraft. “If something goes wrong, everyone will point fingers at us as we are the clearing wing. We will have to be available when pilots does the debriefing sessions,” he says.

While these backroom boys were readying themselves to get a Tejas PV-3 ready for the flight, P G Jayan, DGM, Integration & Project Manager (LCA Mk-1), joined the discussion with his final words. “*These are the true heroes of Tejas programme. The souls on the shop floor make things happen. There are days when they have worked for 16 hours*. Having a great team is the biggest award you can get,” says Jayan, who have logged 28 years in HAL.

As we wound up, the pilot of Tejas PV-3 was throttling up for another sky party.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQqQIwAA&url=http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/bangalore/PEARLS--HEROES-of-TEJAS/2013/12/19/article1953481.ece&ei=q4iyUrHLCcKMrQf68IDQAQ&usg=AFQjCNH4qhGTo39GcCw_yna74T4HUqRDrA

PEARLS & HEROES of TEJAS | idrw.org






Tejas: A Rs 50,000 crore bird for India | idrw.org

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## HariPrasad

Tejas: 11 things you didn't know - Tejas: 11 things you didn't know about India's indigenous aircraft | The Economic Times


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## sudhir007

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC content/ADA- Tejas Brochure Final.pdf

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## IND151

*HAL Statement:* [India’s] indigenously designed and developed frontline fighter aircraft, *Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)* is* poised* to achieve an *important milestone* on *December 20, 2013* by achieving the *Initial Operational Clearance (IOC II*) and get ready for induction into IAF squadrons. The aircraft is manufactured by the defence major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). “T*he production facilities have been set up at HAL and the aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014. We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MOD. HAL is fully geared up to meet the challenging production schedule and hopes to fulfil the requirements of customers in a time bound manner*”, says Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL.

Tejas is a single engine, light weight, highly agile, multi-role supersonic fighter. *It has quadruplex digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System (FCS) with associated advanced flight control laws*. Extensive use of advanced composites in the airframe gives a high strength to weight ratio, long fatigue life and low radar signatures.

*HAL carried-out around 500 sorties of LCA in the year 2013 which is the highest for any particular year right from the start of the programme*. The previous highest was 280 sorties in the year 2009. Outstation flight trials were carried out at Leh, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttaralai Gwalior, Pathankot and Goa for cold weather, armament and weapon deliveries, multimode radar (MMR), radar warning receiver (RWR), hot weather and missile firing flight trials this year itself. Two aircraft have flown three sorties each on the same day during trials at Jamnagar in October –November 2013, demonstrating fast turnaround time capability. 

After the achievement of IOC II, HAL will go ahead with the Series Production of LCA Tejas. *The Company has already established the structural assembly hangar and the assembly jigs have been calibrated with state of the Laser Trackers to an accuracy of 80 microns (0.08 mm) to meet stringent quality standards*. A state of the art CNC drilling machine has been installed to ensure repeatability and reduce the cycle time.

LCA has also successfully demonstrated weapon delivery capability during weapon trials at Jamnagar & Jaisalmer. LCA participated during IRON FIST 2013 and proved its mettle along with other platforms of IAF.

*Production Line:* HAL has been working towards building up infrastructure for production. The LCA production group engaged in the production of Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft during the last five years functioned as an extended arm of the design and development team with large scale modifications introduced into these LSP aircraft in terms of hardware, system improvements and software in a progressive manner as per concurrent development and production concept. 

With most of the aircraft system performance reaching desired levels, HAL production group would concentrate on stabilizing the production line. All hardware improvements and software modifications as a result of trials on LSP series aircraft are now being incorporated into series production aircraft. 

The production line at HAL has been moved to new premises with a built up area of around 28,000 Sq m of Hangars, Engineering and Administrative blocks. Upgrade and augmentation of production tooling is underway to enhance the rate of production and to expedite delivery of aircraft for two IAF squadrons in the next four to five [years].

Livefist: LCA Tejas Capability Milestone Tomorrow

Tejas needs to cross 6 milestones in 15 months ahead of FOC | idrw.org

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## HariPrasad

captain steel said:


> bhai its for GE 404 IN20 engine, with new GE 414 INS6 the thrust to weight ratio will increase remarkbly to 1.04 thats too good it will go 2.1mach tak tension mat lo




You misunderstood the context.


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## Roybot

sudhir007 said:


> https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC content/ADA- Tejas Brochure Final.pdf



Some amazing pics in that brochure!

My favourite.

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## HariPrasad

captain steel said:


> so whats its all about????i think u were talking about its speed and thrust is related to speed newtons 3 law bro ......
> 
> 
> ohhh sorry sorry sorry that was for the kaveri engine built by india and 1.8 is for GE 404in20....




It was for 1mach =1067 KM or 1230 KM. Wiki states the speed 1.8 mach is 1920 KM.


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## rockstarIN

sudhir007 said:


> https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC content/ADA- Tejas Brochure Final.pdf




Superb.

We really made a good industrial base with LCA development, the fruits will be coming all the years in future...its not a failure!


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## GORKHALI

My favorite........

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## GORKHALI

Birader said:


> jo bhi ho yara but same about the range of the Tejas is just 40-50 kms.......mai ek baat kahun mujhe sharam ati hai ... jo bbhi ho itni saal marvayi aur yar bus 40-50kms ... maine ye padha hai ki block 2 ke jf 17 ki approxs range is 120kms
> ...yara thodi to sharam karan.......
> 
> 
> band karo ye thread.....


Ek kaam karega Mu mein lega....R73E offcourse. You are in wrong forum.

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> assumption being all mentioned munitions comparable to videsi maal



They will be comparable, but to which version? Astra 2 will be comparable to current R77s in IAF service, not to the one Pak Fa / FGFA might bring. Improved Sudarshan should be comparable to PW3 or Grifin LGBs , but not to advanced PGMs like AASM, SDB, or the improved SPICE family. That's why we need both, low end Indian techs & weapons in higher numbers, high end foreign techs & weapons in lower numbers.

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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> They will be comparable, but to which version? Astra 2 will be comparable to current R77s in IAF service, not to the one Pak Fa / FGFA might bring. Improved Sudarshan should be comparable to PW3 or Grifin LGBs , but not to advanced PGMs like AASM, SDB, or the improved SPICE family. That's why we need both, low end Indian techs & weapons in higher numbers, high end foreign techs & weapons in lower numbers.


Thataaastu........


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## Dazzler

HariPrasad said:


> AOA was increased from 17* to 22* and it can touch 24*
> 
> I like that part most. I expect 26* to 28* in FOC.
> 
> Mach 1.4 speed is disappointing. How ever Mach has 2 parameter. Some body consider 1067 KMPH while others consider 1230 KMPH. I hope it is second case. Ajay shukla had mentioned that it easily flies at 1699 KM/ hr. I hope that it has increased since than. I expect to touch 1920 KMPH , its design speed.





sandy_3126 said:


> Which agency certifies engines?




ADA if i am not wrong?


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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> ADA if i am not wrong?


Nopes! DGQCA, there is nothing that suggests GTX-35vs is not...

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## eazzy

Does the military really want it or are they forced to buy it ?


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## Robinhood Pandey

eazzy said:


> Does the military really want it or are they forced to buy it ?


Do u really want to post here or you are forced to post ?? to earn your 50 cents ?

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## eazzy

It was a serious question my slumdog friend. ^^


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## SRP

eazzy said:


> It was a serious question my slumdog friend. ^^



Then you need mental masturbation then. IAF needs it and needs it in huge nos.

*Tejas squadron formation still a distant dream for IAF | First CO posted For No 45 Sqn at ASTE | Engine test bed readied in Sulur ll a distant dream for IAF*

*Bangalore: *The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) wait to induct the Tejas might get bit longer till the four series production (SP) aircraft roll out from the brand new hangars of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). While today’s second initial operational clearance (IOC-2) will signal the end of a grueling wait for the IAF to officially undertake flight evaluation trials, the formation of No 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) earmarked for Tejas might take another two more years. The same squadron last flew the MiG 21 Bison aircraft operating from Naliya (Gujarat), an airfield closer to Karachi. The Tejas squadron will eventually be operating from the Sulur air force base, near Coimbatore.

Sources monitoring the Tejas programme said that, HAL’s promise of delivering the first production variant of Tejas (SP-1) by March 2014 might be little far-fetched. “We hope to have the first aircraft by end by mid of 2014. The first two aircraft (SP-1, SP-2) might not meet our standards for squadron formation as the metal cutting and hardware were done before we froze the IOC-2 test points. We will raise the first Tejas squadron with four aircraft starting from SP-3 to SP-6,” a top source said. The IAF will use SP-1 and SP-2 for evaluation flight to be undertaken by the Test pilots of Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE). The limited series production variants LSP-7 and LSP-8 too will be used for evaluation flights by IAF.

The IAF has already identified the first Commanding Officer for Tejas Squadron, now part of the ASTE team, but he’s yet to fly the Tejas. More officers are expected to join the squadron soon, with only few technicians currently being trained to handle the aircraft. For IAF, the maintainability of Tejas is the most primary concern. “The hardware-related issues need to be fixed first. The software can be upgraded without much delay. The critical factor for any aircraft is its maintainability. Truly speaking, before the IOC event, all hardware must be finalized, which might not still be the case with Tejas,” the source said.

A programme management team from the IAF sits at the Aeronautical Development Agency to ensure that the Tejas comes out as a ‘usable aircraft’ befitting the squadron standards. HAL will deliver first 20 aircraft in IOC configuration and another 20 more in the final operational clearance (FOC) format. Appreciating the safety features of the aircraft, the official said that notwithstanding the delays, the safety features of Tejas was world class. “We are way ahead of F-22, Rafale and Eurofighter. We are very lucky to have a safe Tejas flying today. All other similar programmes had crashes during developmental phase. It is a very creditable achievement,” the official said.

Preparations in Sulur are going as per plans with the engine test bed already being readied. The IAF is awaiting the release of Rs 580 crore from the Ministry of Defence to undertake infrastructure work like taxi tracks, hangars and squadron complex. The IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne on Wednesday (18 December) reviewed the progress of Tejas base in Sulur, during his visit to Thiruvananthapuram.

*Copyright@The New Indian Express*

*DRDO set to increase Desi components onboard Tejas*


*Bangalore:* The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is gearing up to cut the important content onboard Tejas in an effort to erase the tag that India’s home-grown fighter flies on some videshi might. This again is in line with the oft-repeated ‘make-in-India’ philosophy of Defence Minister A K Antony. While the second initial operational clearance (IOC-2) will be definitely a breather for DRDO and its autonomous wing the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence scientists are now channelising their energies in developing more indigenous components for Tejas.

DRDO’s most prominent voice Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), says that his organisation is working parallel to get few Indian weapons integrated on Tejas. “Though to integrate Indian weapons is not a planned test point for the final operational clearance (FOC) of Tejas, we have started working on it for some time now. The Astra missile integration with an improvised range of 80-plus km (currently 40-45 km) is the next big challenge. We have also planned some PGMs (precision-guided munitions) for Tejas, including glide bombs and GPS-guided bombs,” Tamil Mani said.

He said various DRDO labs are actively working on the development and testing of these weapons. “We want to take up the Indian weapon integration as a parallel programme, which is progressing as per our plan. In military aviation, the modern thought process is to share the strength. No country makes every component all alone in a fighter plane. So to say that Tejas is not 100 per cent Indian, doesn’t hold any ground. We want to take the indigenous content in Tejas to 80 per cent from the current 60 per cent. It is an achievable target and we have the strength,” he said.

An onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS) is also in the pipeline for Tejas. The OBOGS development work is being undertaken by the Bangalore-based DRDO life sciences lab Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory. “The OBOGS enables the pilots to fly at high altitudes and on long duration sorties without the help of oxygen cylinders. We are also planning to get an Indian company to supply the tyres for Tejas, which currently runs on Dunlop,” Tamil Mani said.

The engine (GE F 404), ejection seat (Martin Baker), missile (R 73 E) and the multi-mode radar (Elta) are among the prominent import content onboard Tejas now.
*
Copyright@The New Indian Express*​

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## SRP

*We are offering a battle-ready Teajs to IAF now: ADA Chief*

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) chief P S Subramaniam says that Tejas is completely battle-ready and its increased number of flights in the last 3 years (over 1000) is a testimony to the maintenance, safety and operation features of the aircraft. In an interview to Express on Thursday, Subramaniam said that the Tejas has proved its flying capabilities at all important Indian Air Force (IAF) and a couple of naval bases.

“This year we have touched almost 50 flights and have conducted outstation trails at Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Gwalior, Leh, Utterlai (near Jodhpur) and Goa. The aircraft has demonstrated the capabilities to operate like a typical squadron. On many occasions the same aircraft has flown more than once in a day. Many have accused us in the past that Tejas was not capable of flying more than once in day. But we have demonstrated flying thrice in a day, which is a pointer towards the ease at which it can be serviced,” the ADA chief said.

He said many local IAF technicians have appreciated the flying and serviceable qualities of Tejas, which was against the general opinion. “Today, the product speaks for itself and we were all glued to improvising its performance for the last many years. The weapon delivery capabilities of Tejas in many modes were demonstrated and over a dozen times we have fired the R-73 E missile. The electronic warfare trials were also conducted at an IAF base in central India,” Subramaniam said.






The ground support equipment specifications have also been evolved. There are about 20 major ground equipment developed for Tejas. “We have also made some new tools for the IAF technicians and many of their concepts have been incorporated. Today Tejas is a fighter evolved from hundreds of feedback we received from designers, engineers, pilots and technicians. We have gone through the motions of making a new generation fighter and faced many difficulties. The induction of Tejas into IAF will being soon and that should silence most of the critics. Plane-making a serious business and making military platforms is a complex exercise. We have covered some distance and Tejas is the answer,” he said.
Copyright@The New Indian Express​

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## HariPrasad

Dazzler said:


> ADA if i am not wrong?




Center for Military air worthiness certification certifies it.

Clearing Lca-Tejas Flight Test Parameters was a Challenge, Says Airworthiness Centre | idrw.org


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## SRP



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## Superboy

Is Tejas the first plane to achieve IOC status without having a squadron raised?


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## HariPrasad

captain steel said:


> ok let it be only pilot would know the true speed, lets become pilots u know more planes for learning more planes to crash....
> 
> 
> ill try to find it, but u know govt or armed forces will never let enemies know about our weaknesses.....




Pl read this.

Dear dude,
speed of sound is give by equation c=Square root(k/rho) where, k=Bulk modulus and rho=Density of Fluid.
But, Density of fluid changes with respect to pressure because by ideal gas law states that p=rho*r*t
where p=pressure,rho=density,r=gas constant and t=temperature in Kelvin.
but the pressure changes with respect to altitude and is give by, p=-(rho*g*z) where p=pressure,rho=density and z=Height,g=Gravitational Acceleration;
as the altitude increases pressure decreases,decreasing the density and thus cancelling out each other and hence no effect on Ideal Gas(AIR), BUT,
as we know
c=Square root(k/rho) and k=gamma*pressure where gamma=adiabatic index and is further given by
gamma=cp/cv;
cp=specific heat at constant pressure and cv=specific heat at constant volume;
so all in all the Speed of sound depends upon cp and cv which depends on temperature. But temperature depends upon Altitude it decreases for Troposphere and stays constant after tropopause till 20km;
so from 0-11km speed of sound decreases decreasing Mach number and after 11km to 20km it remains constant;
in Aeronautics specially for airplane design we consider altitude only from 0km to 22km.
Thanks.


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## SRP

Tejas completes flying display. LSP-3, LSP-4, LSP-5 did a simulated mission.

Dream come true, says HAL chairman R K Tyagi.

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## Robinhood Pandey

desert warrior said:


> Tejas completes flying display. LSP-3, LSP-4, LSP-5 did a simulated mission.
> 
> Dream come true, says HAL chairman R K Tyagi.


Are they telecasting it live bro ???


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## Water Car Engineer

chak de INDIA said:


> Are they telecasting it live bro ???

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## HariPrasad

desert warrior said:


> Tejas completes flying display. LSP-3, LSP-4, LSP-5 did a simulated mission.
> 
> Dream come true, says HAL chairman R K Tyagi.




Hey man,

Keep reporting. Thanks.


----------



## li0nheart

*India rolls out its first indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas*

Bangalore: India has rolled out its first indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas in Bangalore on Friday. Defence Minister AK Antony, MoS Defence Jitendra Singh and Air Force chief NAK Browne attended the event.

The launch comes after the ambitious project started nearly 20 years ago. The first batch of the supersonic fighter aircrafts will be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) and will be inducted into the Indian Air Force's fleet by 2014.

ALSO SEE In pics: India's indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas
The country's indigenously designed and developed multi-role supersonic fighter aircraft LCA-Tejas will get the (IOC II)





The first batch of the supersonic fighter aircrafts will be produced by HAL and will be inducted into the Indian Air Force's fleet by 2014.
tomorrow, a significant step towards its induction into IAF

squadron.

Tejas, which received the Initial Operational Clearance on Friday, is a light Combat, a single engine, light weight and highly agile frontline fighter aircraft.

On the eve of the milestone on Thursday, defence major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited said the production facilities have been set up at HAL and the aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014.

"We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MOD (Ministry of Defence)", HAL Chairman Dr RK Tyagi said.

He said, "HAL is fully geared up to meet the challenging production schedule and hopes to fulfil the requirements of customers in a time bound manner." The aircraft will, however, have to cross several milestones before it receives the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), expected in 2015.

HAL carried out around 500 sorties of LCA in 2013, the highest for any particular year right from the start of the programme, which has been bogged down by delays. Outstation flight trials were carried out at Leh, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttaralai Gwalior, Pathankot and Goa for cold weather, armament and weapon deliveries, MultiMode Radar (MMR), Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), hot weather and missile firing flight trials this year itself,Tyagi said in a release.

After IOC II, HAL will go ahead with the Series Production of LCA Tejas, he said. LCA has also successfully demonstrated weapon delivery capability during weapon trials at Jamnagar and Jaisalmer. HAL has been working towards building up infrastructure for production, he said, adding, with most of the aircraft

system performance reaching desired levels, HAL production group would concentrate on stabilising the production line.

The production line at HAL has been moved to new premises with a built up area of around 28,000 Sq m of Hangars, Engineering and Administrative blocks.Upgrade and augmentation of production tooling is underway to enhance the rate of

production and to expedite delivery of aircraft for two IAF squadrons in the next four to five years,Tyagi said.

(With additional inputs from PTI)
*
India rolls out its first indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas*

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## RPK

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: DRDO set to increase Desi components onboard Tejas
*
Bangalore:* The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is gearing up to cut the important content onboard Tejas in an effort to erase the tag that India’s home-grown fighter flies on some videshi might. This again is in line with the oft-repeated ‘make-in-India’ philosophy of Defence Minister A K Antony. While the second initial operational clearance (IOC-2) will be definitely a breather for DRDO and its autonomous wing the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence scientists are now channelising their energies in developing more indigenous components for Tejas.
DRDO’s most prominent voice Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), says that his organisation is working parallel to get few Indian weapons integrated on Tejas. “Though to integrate Indian weapons is not a planned test point for the final operational clearance (FOC) of Tejas, we have started working on it for some time now. The Astra missile integration with an improvised range of 80-plus km (currently 40-45 km) is the next big challenge. We have also planned some PGMs (precision-guided munitions) for Tejas, including glide bombs and GPS-guided bombs,” Tamil Mani said.
He said various DRDO labs are actively working on the development and testing of these weapons. “We want to take up the Indian weapon integration as a parallel programme, which is progressing as per our plan. In military aviation, the modern thought process is to share the strength. No country makes every component all alone in a fighter plane. So to say that Tejas is not 100 per cent Indian, doesn’t hold any ground. We want to take the indigenous content in Tejas to 80 per cent from the current 60 per cent. It is an achievable target and we have the strength,” he said.
An onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS) is also in the pipeline for Tejas. The OBOGS development work is being undertaken by the Bangalore-based DRDO life sciences lab Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory. “The OBOGS enables the pilots to fly at high altitudes and on long duration sorties without the help of oxygen cylinders. We are also planning to get an Indian company to supply the tyres for Tejas, which currently runs on Dunlop,” Tamil Mani said.
The engine (GE F 404), ejection seat (Martin Baker), missile (R 73 E) and the multi-mode radar (Elta) are among the prominent import content onboard Tejas now.


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## Badbadman

chak de INDIA said:


> Are they telecasting it live bro ???


did you find live telecast somewhere


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## Robinhood Pandey

Badbadman said:


> did you find live telecast somewhere


nope


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## fsayed

congrats to all Indians n drdo to making this aircraft

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## HariPrasad

Hi Guys,

IOC 2 accorded. Why are you people so cool?

Have Laddus and do Lungi dance.

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## sms

HariPrasad said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> IOC 2 accorded. Why are you people totally cool?
> 
> Have Laddus and do Lungi dance.



Are sugar ki bimari kar ke dum lega Kya?

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## HariPrasad

sms said:


> Are sugar ki bimari kar ke dum lega Kya?



Today I do not care about Sugar.Have Laddu and do Lungi dance and Nothing else.

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## Robinhood Pandey

*burrrrrrraaaaahhhhhh !!!!



*

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## SRP

nice shot of the LCA Tejas today in Bangalore





With IOC-II, the IAF finally gets to fly the Tejas ahead of squadron service and full ops clearance next year.






An LCA Tejas lifts off today right before achieving IOC-II

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## thesolar65

Whoa.....AT LAST......


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## SRP

Ajay Shukla with SP-1

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## Badbadman

Any videos guys.


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## SRP

*LCA Tejas Gets Initial Operational Clearance for Induction into IAF 
IOC of LCA a Major Milestone in Self-Reliance: Antony 
Flight Safety Record of Tejas is Unprecdented in Aviation History: ACM Browne *

The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today handed over the Release to Service Certificate of the country’s own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, at a function in Bengaluru, marking the fruition of a long and difficult journey of three decades of efforts to make a fighter aircraft of international standards.

Described as Initial Operational Clearance-II of Tejas, the LCA is designed to ultimately replace the Mig 21 fleet of IAF. The timing of IOC- II for LCA coincides with the iconic Mig 21 FL fighter flying into IAF’s history just a week ago.

Visibly happy at today’s event, Shri Antony said, during the last three years, the capabilities of the aircraft have been improved significantly. “In recognition of the enhanced capabilities, IAF has decided to grant the aircraft a higher status, namely, the Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the Service”, he said.

Shri Antony candidly confessed that he had his share of anxieties regarding the future of LCA when he had taken over as the Defence Minister in 2006 but today we are putting behind the moments of self –doubt, frustrations and setbacks which we as a nation have gone through in the last 30 years.

“The improvements to the aircraft have enhanced the flight envelope of the aircraft and also weapon delivery capability of the aircraft. The performance at Iron Fist, Jaisalmer and the recent missile firing at Goa are examples of such improvements. The reliability of the aircraft and serviceability has also been enhanced. The number of flights nearing 500 within this year provides an indication of this. Operating at IAF bases namely, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwaliar, Goa, Leh, Pathankot demonstrate the aircraft capability to operate from Air Force bases. There have also been occasions when the same aircraft has flown thrice on the same day, indicating the operational reliability of this home-bred fighter aircraft ”, he said. 

Shri Antony said military aviation in the country has got a major boost with the approval of several new programmes. Some of these programmes include – Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft, to name a few.

Describing the attainment of Initial Operational Clearance as an important milestone in the long journey towards indigenization through self-reliance, Shri Antony said, our public and private sector must work in tandem to develop and produce world-class military systems of the highest quality.

The Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said it is indeed a proud day for the nation and particularly for the IAF; since the grant of IOC acknowledges the capabilities of this aircraft and paves the way for the induction of LCA Mk 1 into operational service. He said the progress of such a challenging experimental project without any accident or major incident is unprecedented in the history of aviation.

On a personal note, ACM Browne said as he prepares to hang his uniform at the end of this month, he would have gone home as a disappointed person if the IOC of the LCA had not been achieved.

Today’s event was attended among others by the Scientific Advisor to RM Shri Avinash Chander, Secretary Defence Production Shri GC Pati, Chairman of HAL Shri RK Tyagi, Programme Director of ADA Shri PS Subramanyam, DG- Aero and CE CEMILAC Dr K Tamil Mani.


*A Long Journey*

The Country had embarked on an ambitious plan to indigenously design and develop the Light Combat aircraft (LCA) to be inducted into IAF and Indian Navy inventory. The Programme has been spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore under the Department of Defence R & D, with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as its principal partner. A large number of Laboratories of Defence Research & DevelopmentOrganisation (DRDO) and Central Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR), certification agencies, Indian Air Force, academic institutions and Private/Public Sector Undertakings participated in the LCA development effort.

Indian Light Combat Aircraft, christened ‘Tejas’, is the smallest, light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic, multirole, combat aircraft and is one of the best in its class in the world. The quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system ensures acceptable handling qualities while ensuring adequate safety throughout the flight envelope. The advanced Glass cockpit open architecture system complements piloting. Four variants of Tejas aircraft (Combat variant, Trainer and Naval variants) are being developed for land and carrier borne operations. 

The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-I) for ‘Tejas’ was achieved on 10 Jan 2011. In IOC-I, the Aircraft had a few limitations in terms of Combat performance, turn around time and its weaponisation which had to be refined and improved through Research & Development process. In addition to this, Wake penetration trials, all weather clearances were planned beyond IOC-1.

Since IOC-1, ‘Tejas’ has accomplished significant milestones. Till date, more than 2450 sorties have been completed to achieve the flight test goals towards IOC-2. The design issues were resolved with System Engineering approach and by periodical reviews with participation of external experts. 

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include Safe flying up to High angle of Attack as mandated by the users. This has considerably enhanced the combat performance of the aircraft. The Flight control system evaluation has also been completed. The time for initial built-in test has been reduced considerably which enables faster turn around and enhanced operational readiness of aircraft. The Brake system has been improved significantly in terms of energy absorption capability during landing, thus ensuring prompt turn-around of the aircraft. Significant improvement in Cockpit ergonomic and lighting system has been accomplished for improved night flying. In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement. Avionics and Weapon system of the aircraft have been revamped for effective mission superiority. Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS) has been fully integrated in Tejas and R73E missile firing has been successfully demonstrated using HMDS.

Multi Mode Weapon multirole capability of Tejas was demonstrated during its participation in Iron Fist. Air to Ground mission and Air to Air missions were demonstrated by dropping Laser Guided Bombs and R73E firing in single pass. Laser Guided Bomb firing has been achieved for IOC-2 to user’s satisfaction.

Aircraft readiness for missions in terms of its readiness and Operational Readiness Platform (ORP) and Turn Round Service (TRS) and easier maintainability has been achieved as per requirement thus enhancing operational readiness of the aircraft. Tejas has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.

IOC-2 shall enable Air Force to carry out air superiority and offensive air support missions, forward air field operations, all weather multi role operations, Electronic counter measures and night flying operations.

LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.

LCA is powered by the F404/IN20- a well proven turbofan engine, designed and manufactured by General Electric Aircraft Engines, USA. The Engine is modular in construction, consisting of six modules, ensuring easy maintenance. The F404-GE-IN20 is a low bypass turbofan engine, with augmented thrust provided by the afterburner. 

*Production Facilities*

The production facilities have been set up at HAL and the aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014. “We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MoD. HAL is fully geared up to meet the challenging production schedule and hopes to fulfil the requirements of customers in a time bound manner”, says the Chairman, HAL, Dr RK Tyagi.


After the achievement of IOC II, HAL will go ahead with the Series Production of LCA Tejas. The Company has already established the structural assembly hangar and the assembly jigs have been calibrated with state of the Laser Trackers to an accuracy of 80 microns (0.08 mm) to meet stringent quality standards. A state of the art CNC drilling machine has been installed to ensure repeatability and reduce the cycle time.


*Sitanshu Kar from Bengaluru*

Source: Press Information Bureau English Releases

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## Gessler



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## sancho

HariPrasad said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> IOC 2 accorded. Why are you people so cool?



Because there is no need to start celebrations at this point. It just moved ahead to another milestone of the program, which is good, but with all the delays and problems, not something to start big celebrations.
Let the fighter and the techs mature, let the first squad be inducted into operational service of IAF, THEN something was achived!


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## HariPrasad

sancho said:


> Because there is no need to start celebrations at this point. It just moved ahead to another milestone of the program, which is good, but with all the delays and problems, not something to start big celebrations.
> Let the fighter and the techs mature, let the first squad be inducted into operational service of IAF, THEN something was achived!




But when an important Milestone is achieved, it is certainly a time for celebration. If you do not want to celebrate, it is your choice.


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## nomi007

Gessler said:


>


what are these red and green items mounted on both wings


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## HariPrasad

nomi007 said:


> what are these red and green items mounted on both wings




Dumy bombs Or a device which will mimic the bomb trajectory when released from wing.


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## sancho

@Dash @Abingdonboy 

Just remembered something again, wrt the MK2 display:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/131220/ubtg9aza.jpg

http://s1.directupload.net/images/131220/pb7i2e8p.jpg

So, bigger upgraded displays, not the large touchscreen displays.

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## RPK

nomi007 said:


> what are these red and green items mounted on both wings





HariPrasad said:


> Dumy bombs Or a device which will mimic the bomb trajectory when released from wing.



Green for Dummy Bombs holdings & Red for Camera Holders to record the event

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## sancho

See above.



HariPrasad said:


> But when an important Milestone is achieved, it is certainly a time for celebration. If you do not want to celebrate, it is your choice.



That's the point, it is "a" milestone, but nothing was "achived" so far. It is just "a" step ahead, but nothing compared to the timeframe of the development, or when you look how far comparable fighters went in the same time.
There is still a long way to go and instead of wasting time for celebrations, we must keep focusing on getting it done finally and into operational service!

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## Manindra

HariPrasad said:


> PV 1 was planned to be fitted with Kaveri. (it is said that with Kaveri, Lca will be able to perform 80% of flight envelop)
> 
> LSP 7 and LSP 8 were planned to be handed over to IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Pl read this post.
> 
> LCA News & Discussions | Page 417



From which point you got assumption that 1 mach = 1067 KMPH
In ideal earth atmospheric condition speed of the sound is near about 1225 KMPH which turn 1 mach


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## HariPrasad

sancho said:


> That's the point, it is "a" milestone, but nothing was "achived" so far. It is just "a" step ahead, but nothing compared to the timeframe of the development, or when you look how far comparable fighters went in the same time.




They were certainly not their first fighter. All A/C have taken 2 decades to develop. We not only develop fighter but infrastructure as well.



sancho said:


> There is still a long way to go and instead of wasting time for celebrations, we must keep focusing on getting it done finally and into operational service!



It is we who celebrates. We are not into the LCA development so our celebration do not hamper or wasting of time in LCA development. AOA increased to 24*. you should appreciate that.


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## HariPrasad

Manindra said:


> From which point you got assumption that 1 mach = 1067 KMPH




Wiki says Top speed of tejas 1.8 Mach (1920 Kmph)

Pl see.

*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* Mach 1.8[122] (1,920 km/h) ; (CAS) at high altitude
*Range:* 850 km[123] (459 nmi, 528 mi)
*Combat radius:* 300 km[123] (162 nmi, 186 mi)
*Ferry range:* 3,000 km[76](1,840 mi)
*Service ceiling:* 15,250 m[122] (50,000 ft)
*Wing loading:* 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)
*Thrust/weight:* 1.07[115]
*g-limits:* +8/−3.5 _g_[115]
Ajai shukla quoted 1.6 mach (1699 KMPH) speed achieved.

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## Dash

sancho said:


> @Dash @Abingdonboy
> 
> Just remembered something again, wrt the MK2 display:
> 
> http://s7.directupload.net/images/131220/ubtg9aza.jpg
> 
> http://s1.directupload.net/images/131220/pb7i2e8p.jpg
> 
> So, bigger upgraded displays, not the large touchscreen displays.



ok so thats Mk2 from HAL, any idea if they will actually go for bigger touchscreen display, if SAMTEL eventually proposes it?


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## sancho

Dash said:


> ok so thats Mk2 from HAL, any idea if they will actually go for bigger touchscreen display, if SAMTEL eventually proposes it?



That's and ADA specboard, but most likely will have HALBITs displays, just not the bigger touchscreens, which should be aimed on FGFA instead.

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## Dash

sancho said:


> That's and ADA specboard, but most likely will have HALBITs displays, just not the bigger touchscreens, which should be aimed on FGFA instead.



I dont know why I am mixing up things here...yes HALBIT displays. or may be AMCA I guess, if they ever make it.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I dont know why I am mixing up things here...yes HALBIT displays. or may be AMCA I guess, if they ever make it.



Yes, as I said some days ago, it would be logical to go for commonality between FGFA and an AMCA (just like commonality between Rafale and LCA MK2 would make sense) if we want to develop it and a similar cockpit would be more than logical. But we have HAL on the one side, responsible for FGFA and ADA/DRDO that want to make AMCA their own baby and might insist on own cockpit layout => more costs + more time


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Yes, as I said some days ago, it would be logical to go for commonality between FGFA and an AMCA (just like commonality between Rafale and LCA MK2 would make sense) if we want to develop it and a similar cockpit would be more than logical. But we have HAL on the one side, responsible for FGFA and ADA/DRDO that want to make AMCA their own baby and might insist on own cockpit layout => more costs + more time



They wont try to create a diaplay for AMCA as that would be completely out of box, a box which will never close! FGFA might get the touchscreen ones as I guess and AMCA too. As per MK2, I remember from the pic I posted, it said cockpit NG, so its for 5th gen planes and that sits there perfectly.

ADA as I know will have its hands full in designing a perfect 5th Gen plane in terms of aerodynamics and not to forget engine! If you look at the current AMCA, its not so much of a plan form design if what I think so they have a lot of work in that area.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> ADA as I know will have its hands full in designing a perfect 5th Gen plane in terms of aerodynamics and not to forget engine! If you look at the current AMCA, its not so much of a plan form design if what I think so they have a lot of work in that area.



No doubt about that, we only have very basic plans so far, far away from anything that could be fielded as a prototype. But then again, the reason is, that they see it as an own development that needs to be completely different and don't want to benefit from FGFA in form of shared parts. 
With Gripen selected in Brazil, I bet that there will be a 5th gen fighter developed by Saab & Embraer earlier than an AMCA from ADA/DRDO.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> With Gripen selected in Brazil, I bet that there will be a 5th gen fighter developed by Saab & Embraer earlier than an AMCA from ADA/DRDO.



That was something out of the blue I guess Brazilian's are cash straped now so the decision was in favor of Gripen, though they preferred Rafale. 

Regarding AMCA its too early to guess what ADA has in mind, but its not difficult to judge that they will have very 'limited' help from FGFA considering our share is merely at softer aspects. I just know think anybody as a partner is good for AMCA too. Talk about Israel oe France they always have some issues and delays+delay from our side not to forget.


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## Jayanta

Introducing Tejas: India's interceptor, battle-ready by 2015 Video: NDTV.com

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## IND151

Broadsword: In Tejas’ shadow, Sitara trainer also poised to enter service
While the spotlight plays over the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) that will,* on Friday, be certified fit for induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF), another India-built aircraft is at the cusp of readiness*.* Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)* has revealed that its* Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT)*, which has been in development since 1999, is now *“just weeks away from certification”*.
Defence Minister AK Antony is flying down to Bengaluru to award the Tejas its initial operational certificate (IOC) on Friday. The Sitara’s success in intensive flight-testing this year means that he could soon be making another trip to award an identical certification to the Sitara.
For the IAF, there could hardly be better news. The recent purchase of the PC-7 Mark II basic trainer from Swiss company, Pilatus; and HAL’s simultaneous project to develop the HTT-40 basic trainer, caters for training of rookie pilots --- termed Stage-1 training. The induction of the Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) in 2008 took care of Stage-3 training, after which pilots fly frontline IAF fighters. But Stage-2 intermediate training remains a gaping void that is inadequately filled by vintage Kiran Mark II trainers that date back to the 1970s.
“We have accelerated flight testing dramatically this year, doing 183 sorties --- thrice as many as any preceding year. Last month we completed bombing trials and extra fuel tank trials in Jamnagar. Now we are completing the stall and spin tests, after which we will get the IOC,” says Krishna Kumar, Project Manager IJT for HAL.
Business Standard visited the HAL division where the Sitara is undergoing flight-testing. One prototype was taxiing out for a test-flight, while technicians readied others. So keen is the IAF to get the Sitara into service that HAL has been allowed to press into flight-testing the 12 trainers the IAF ordered.
*In March 2010, the IAF also ordered 73 Sitara trainers for Rs 6,180 crore. These would be based at the IAF flying school coming up in Deesa, in Gujarat*; and in Tambaram, where the IAF trains flying instructors.
A tour of the Sitara makes it clear why the IAF is so keen. Unlike the clunky Kiran, the Sitara’s clean-cut lines are distinctly 21st century. While the Kiran seated both instructor and trainee side by side, *the Sitara has tandem seating with the trainee pilot seated alone in front, where he gets the feel of flying solo even though he knows the instructor is seated behind*. The Kiran’s quaint analog instruments are replaced with smart digital display screens, like those that equip modern fighters. *From his rear seat, the instructor can control the trainee pilot’s instruments, simulating flight emergencies for the rookie to handle.*
“Everyone who sees the Sitara remarks upon its ‘wow’ factor. *Many don’t believe that this is an entirely India-designed aircraft*,” says Kumar.
HAL was sanctioned Rs 180 crore in July 1999 to develop the aircraft and build two flying prototypes. In 2005, two years after the prototype first flew, the budget was raised to Rs 467 crore to order a more powerful engine from Russia and to build an all-glass cockpit. Eventually, development has cost Rs 634.23 crore. In addition, the IAF ordered 12 limited series production (LSP) Sitaras in 2006 for Rs 486.82 crore. That works out to Rs 40 crore per trainer, a fraction of what would be paid abroad for a similar aircraft that also integrates rockets, guns and bombs.
The Sitara has faced its share of development setbacks. Around 2006, it was making good progress when it was decided to fit a new engine --- the AL-55I engine, specially developed in Russia for the Sitara, which HAL will manufacture in Koraput, Odisha. In 2011, flight-testing suffered a major setback when a Sitara crashed in stall testing, fortunately without loss of life.
All that is history, say HAL project managers, as the Sitara is poised to enter service. *It flies up to 700 kilometres per hour and up to 9,000 metres high. It can sustain gravitational forces from minus 2.5G to plus 7G* (seven times the force of gravity). *It has a range of 1000 kilometres, extendable to 1,500 kilometres with external drop tanks.* 

Broadsword: In Tejas’ shadow, Sitara trainer also poised to enter service

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## sancho

Dash said:


> That was something out of the blue I guess Brazilian's are cash straped now so the decision was in favor of Gripen, though they preferred Rafale.



Yes that's the reason for the selection, but Brazil remains an emerging country with a lot of potential. Embraer has made a steady growth in the last decades, unlike Indian counterparts and I expect increased cooperations with Saab and Sweden now for the future. With their experience and know how, that's a team up that has a lot of potential for the future.



Dash said:


> Regarding AMCA its too early to guess what ADA has in mind, but its not difficult to judge that they will have very 'limited' help from FGFA considering our share is merely at softer aspects.



The problem is that ADA/DRDO themself don't really know what they aim to with AMCA, all they know is, they want to make it as the LCA follow development, although that is not even close to be done yet. Same nonsense with the AWACS India development, although not even the current DRDO AWACS is operational.
The help of FGFA to an AMCA can be tremendous, if we want! Since we can shortcut a lot of developments by basing AMCA on common parts, instead of developing everything new again. Take the same engine, the same cockpit, EWS, weapons and weapon bay, the same materials and coatings and you have a good part of the development already done. ADA/DRDO would mainly have to develop a new design around these parts and an own AESA/IRST package.
But as I always say, they first have to get an idea where the real need is for such a fighter and what the requirements are, since they are aiming on the wrong force with the wrong requirements again!


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## IND151

IAF to induct six squadrons of Tejas, says Defence Minister Antony | idrw.org


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## he-man

saw the interview of nak browne on tejas ioc.
guy was totally unimpressed and was pinning all hope on mk2

thats testament enough of mk1 capabilities



IND151 said:


> IAF to induct six squadrons of Tejas, says Defence Minister Antony | idrw.org



browne said 2 of mk1 and 4 of mk2


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## SRP



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## SRP



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## SRP



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## Robinhood Pandey

Tejas, India's indigenously designed fighter aircraft, a step closer to induction Video: NDTV.com


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## nomi007

RPK said:


> Green for Dummy Bombs holdings & Red for Camera Holders to record the event


and white


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## SRP



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## Robinhood Pandey

he-man said:


> saw the interview of nak browne on tejas ioc.
> guy was totally unimpressed and was pinning all hope on mk2
> 
> thats testament enough of mk1 capabilities
> 
> 
> 
> browne said 2 of mk1 and 4 of mk2


here is the video
लड़ाकू विमान 'तेजस' वायुसेना में शामिल होने को तैयार Video: NDTV.com


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## nomi007

is there is any twin seater tejas present


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## Robinhood Pandey

nomi007 said:


> is there is any twin seater tejas present

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## Roybot




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## SRP

Tejas IOC movie from the hangars of HAL/ADA





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=508858242544839

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## SRP




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## FOX80

NEW DELHI: The much talked about Tejas, India's first indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is all set to finally replace the ailing 'vintage' series of MiG-21 for the Indian Air Force. For the uninitiated, Tejas is a single seater-single engine aircraft that boasts of many stealth-like features.
The all weather combat aircraft has been extensively tested in 'tough' flying conditions since its maiden test flight in 2001 says DRDO, the government department tasked with building this aircraft. The principal partner of LCA is Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ( HAL) and its divisions located in Bangalore, Hyderabad, Lucknow, Nasik, and Korwa. 
Ever since the idea of developing an indigenous combat aircraft came about in 1983, much has been said about the capability and cost-effectiveness of the LCA. The design and development of the aircraft was plagued by numerous delays, and critics of the project have often raised questions about the 'time lag' that has taken place. However, the DRDO challenges this notion and claims that the Tejas LCA in its current form is one of the best 'modern aircraft' available in the world, with technology that 'will not go obsolete' for decades.

For DRDO chief Avinash Chander, Tejas is a 'dream come true'. "For the first time armed forces will be equipped with an indigenous aircraft. The production and maintenance of which is in our hands," he told Economictimes.com. 

While admitting that there have been delays, Chander said that the DRDO is not 'much off the mark' compared to the average time cycle required to develop such an aircraft. "The type of time cycle for such an aircraft - from the drawing board to field is normally twenty years. We are not much off the mark," he said. 

Ravi Kumar Gupta, Scientist 'G' and Directorate of Public Interface at DRDO also said the same to Economictimes.com. "It was only in 1993 that the proposal for development of Tejas was submitted. The maiden flight of Tejas took place in 2001. It took a total of 20 years from 1993 to 2013. This time period is the standard required by any country, even the most advanced ones," Gupta said. 
*Journey of Tejas - From 1983 to 2001 --- Plenty of teething problems*

Back in 1983, the government first sanctioned Rs 560 crore for a 'Programme Definition Project'. The aim of the project was to determine whether India had the capability to manufacture a combat aircraft, and if yes, then what should the configuration be. Apart from this, the project was also supposed to gauge the challenges that DRDO was likely to face and the possible solutions.





Post report submission in 1988, the government sanctioned Rs 2,188 crore (which included the Rs 560 crore sanctioned earlier) for the design and development of an LCA. 

Ravi Kumar Gupta, Scientist 'G' and Directorate of Public Interface at DRDO told Economictimes.com, "In 1993, the industry had limited experience and competence scope. The manufacturing base to build such an aircraft did not exist." 
Gupta also claimed that all-throughout the development process, 'foreign powers' tried to scuttle the project. Faced with difficulties such as lack of skilled manpower, the DRDO took help of institutes like IITs and IISc to make sure that progress of the project was not hampered. 
*What's unique to the LCA?*

In its current form, Tejas is almost similar to a stealth as it has quite a few features in common with the coveted jet. "The wings are made entirely of composite structures. The contemporary aircraft has a totally digital fly-by-wire control system," Gupta told Economictimes.com. 

It incorporates a 'glass cockpit' in which information is displayed in 'real-time' to the pilot. "Tejas also has open architecture software for avionics. DRDO can update it as and when required," said Gupta citing the same as a big plus point of the aircraft. However, Gupta declined to compare the Tejas with any global aircraft of the same type. 
Another feature that is special to Tejas is the 'unstable configuration' technique with which it has been built, said Gupta. 'To explain it in lay-man terms, between a bike and a car, a car is much more stable, but is unable to exhibit the same manoeuvrability as a bike. Combat aircraft need to be highly manoeuvrable.' 

Gupta explained, that to strike a balance between the two aspects was a big technological challenge for the DRDO. 
*Variants & Cost of project:*

The DRDO is developing four versions of the LCA; viz., LCA for Air Force, LCA trainer for Air Force, LCA for Navy and LCA Navy Trainer. DRDO has also developed a special facility in Goa that mimics the conditions for a Tejas for Navy landing, take-off and manoeuvre from an aircraft carrier. 

While the Indian Air Force will induct Mark-I type Tejas LCA, a demand for Mark-II type Tejas has already been raised, which the DRDO is work on. The Mark-II type Tejas aircraft will have a better thrust and improved radar system. 
Through the years, DRDO has tested Tejas with different kinds of weaponry. From R-73 air-to-air missile to bomb dropping (including laser guided bombs), various weapons have been successfully test fired from the aircraft. 

In future, DRDO also plans test firing of the indigenous Astra missile and guns from Tejas. 




The Tejas LCA Air Force versions have till date cost the DRDO approximately Rs 7,000 crore. According to Gupta this is a 'very small fraction' compared to the development cost of other similar aircraft in the world. 

Production of the aircraft is already underway and two aircraft of the production version of Tejas should be ready by the first half of 2014. The Tejas will be battle ready for IAF by the end of 2014.
*Engine from GE:*

Tejas Mark-I aircraft is powered by General Electric Aviation engine GE-404. After the initial supply of 99 engines (GE F-404 and GE F-414) for IAF and Indian Navy, the rest shall be manufactured by HAL in India after obtaining a licence under a transfer of technology agreement. GE F-414 will power the Mark-II Tejas. 
*Advantage India:*

For Chander, the potential to tweak the existing Tejas and produce variants, along with the confidence in the Indian aviation industry, that the LCA has generated, are the biggest two fundamental advantages of the project. 
"Given that there was no developed aviation industry in India back then, the Tejas is an excellent achievement," Chander told Economictimes.com. Not only that, Chander also said that the lifecycle cost of the LCA will be around 50% lower than any acquired aircraft. "Once an aircraft is acquired, the maintenance costs tend to spiral. In case of Tejas, we now have the capability of stocking up the parts and being ready in advance, in case the need arises," Chander substantiated. 
Amidst much cynicism about the eventual success of Tejas for the IAF and Navy, one positive outcome is that the design and development of the LCA has helped establish an entire ecosystem that will work as a platform for future aircraft manufacturing in the country. Having built Tejas from the scratch, the DRDO now claims has the right combination of trained manpower and manufacturing base to establish India's defence prowess on a global scale. At a conceptual level, the DRDO is already working on Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). 

2013 has been an eventful year for India, both in the defence and the science & technology sectors. While ISRO's Mars mission is on track to create history, many missiles from DRDO, including the Agni series, have been test-fired successfully. India is at the cusp of establishing itself as a global power, and with more and more defence & science projects lined up for the years ahead, the country is finally set to get its due recognition on the world stage.

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## egodoc222

AUSTERLITZ said:


> An indigeneous AESA radar by DRDO,tell me truthfully do u really think they can build this and still get tejas mk-2 on time?If it was imported from israel,perhaps.
> Don't get me wrong..that they are getting an home built radar is great ,but i'm skeptical and given history have a right to be skeptical about these bold claims.


you tell me u ever thought lca would be inducted today?


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## faithfulguy

Congrats to India for inducting LCA.

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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer

12 month to-do list:

1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G).
2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°).
3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS *Derby *BVR air-to-air missile.
5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS *Python-5 *IIR close combat missile (Related post here).
6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov *GSh-23 *23mm cannon.
7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
10. Additional weapons testing, including PGM

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> @Dash @Abingdonboy
> 
> Just remembered something again, wrt the MK2 display:
> 
> http://s7.directupload.net/images/131220/ubtg9aza.jpg
> 
> http://s1.directupload.net/images/131220/pb7i2e8p.jpg
> 
> So, bigger upgraded displays, not the large touchscreen displays.


Yeah I remember this bro, let's just wait and see- my freind was pretty confident wrt the COCKPIT-NG.



Water Car Engineer said:


> 12 month to-do list:
> 
> 3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).


Surely not- the Mk.1 was never meant to have an IFR probe- this is meant for the MK.2 :S


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Surely not- the Mk.1 was never meant to have an IFR probe- this is meant for the MK.2 :S




Thought the same, but it seems it's coming sooner. 



> *Tejas will also have an air-to-air refuelling probe (Cobham, UK) in the FOC configuration.* “We have started the integration work. Similar work was done on Jaguar and AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) platform. We have the expertise now,” Tamil Mani saidhere.



Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Thought the same, but it seems it's coming sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express


Hmm, great news if true but I'm a bit skeptical right now. Let's see.....

@sancho?


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## HariPrasad

Water Car Engineer said:


> 12 month to-do list:
> 
> 1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G).
> 2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°).
> 3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
> 4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS *Derby *BVR air-to-air missile.
> 5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS *Python-5 *IIR close combat missile (Related post here).
> 6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov *GSh-23 *23mm cannon.
> 7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
> 8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
> 9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
> 10. Additional weapons testing, including PGM




Point No 2.

24* AOA already demonstrated. i hope they will reach 28* by FOC.

Point No 1

It is said that LCA hit 8 G on some of the occasions. One of the incident was Aero India 2011.


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## kurup

nomi007 said:


> and white



Drop tank .



nomi007 said:


> is there is any twin seater tejas present



Twin seaters are present in both airforce and naval variants .


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## fsayed

by 2020 India will major defence aviation giant our menu will b lca,lca navy,lca mk2,dhruv,Rudra,lch,mta,pakfa,luh,indigenous awacs by 2020 no more defence aviation imports dependence we will b exporters. Jai ho jai hind proud to b indian

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## DARIUS

*From the Cockpit*
*LCA Tejas - From the Cockpit*

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## HariPrasad

fsayed said:


> by 2020 India will major defence aviation giant our menu will b lca,lca navy,lca mk2,dhruv,Rudra,lch,mta,pakfa,luh,indigenous awacs by 2020 no more defence aviation imports dependence we will b exporters. Jai ho jai hind proud to b indian




Add AMCA prototype.


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## IND151

*PS Subramanyam, Director Aeronautical Development Agence (ADA), in an exclusive interview with Broadsword

Q. How good is the Tejas, which now has an initial operational clearance?*

*As a technologist I would say that many improvements have been made in the last three years. We have successfully addressed all the apprehensions the Indian Air Force (IAF) had.*

*Today there are no serious technology challenges ahead*. This year, we have test-flown the Tejas from IAF bases like Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Jamnagar and Gwalior. In all these places, we operated the aircraft ourselves, while the IAF watched. *We demonstrated that we could turn around the same aircraft after a gap of an hour or so. On occasions, one Tejas did three sorties a day. The IAF technicians and maintenance officers eventually told us that they now see an aircraft that is reliable enough for combat operations.*

*Q. Is the Tejas Mark I ready for war?*

*From the standpoint of operational preparedness, Initial Operational Clearance provides the capability of firing missiles, dropping laser guided bombs, conventional bombs and practice bombs*. These weapons have been fired with sensors --- inertial navigation systems, and radar and laser systems. That show the Tejas performs well as an integrated weapons platform.

*Q. But there are many weapons systems that are still not fitted?*

*All that is pending is the integration of the “beyond visual range”, or BVR, missile. We are obtaining a BVR missile from Israel for integration and demonstration*.

Inflight refuelling capability, and the integration of a BVR missile and a gun are capabilities that will be achieved before the Tejas gets Final Operation Clearance. The IOC clearance, according to conventions world wide, are this --- conventional and guided bombs and close combat missiles.

*Q. Given the long time that IOC has taken, what would you say is a realistic date for getting FOC?*

*I’m targeting FOC for end-2014. This is realistic because the design processes are not starting now*. The inflight refuelling system was ordered a year ago. Design and development for this has been on-going and some of the work is already half completed. So I am confident.

*Q Is the Tejas going to be a hangar queen” or is it easy to maintain?*

*I’m glad that the IAF has pushed us to ensure that this aircraft is maintenance friendly. We have had IAF technicians and officers on the shop floor with us when we prepare the aircraft for sorties*. They watch for difficulties in maintenance. Based on their suggestions, which they convey to us through “Requests for Action”,* we have carried out some 200 design corrections to make the Tejas more maintenance friendly. We are trying to reduce the “maintenance man-hours per flight-hour”*.

This exercise has been done over the last three years and the IAF now believes that Tejas is maintenance friendly. Notwithstanding that, Maintenance Evaluation Trials will be carried out in a couple of months. I always say that when we buy a car, we don’t just want it to go at 140 kmph. More importantly, we want it to be available to us everyday.

*Q. You’ve set ambitious timelines for the Tejas Mark II. Are they unrealistic?*

*We are close to finalizing the engine contract with General Electric, the chosen vendor. By the first quarter of the next year, i.e. March 2014, the preliminary design would have been frozen. Somewhere in 2018, the Mark II will be ready for productionisation*. This time there will be no prototypes. We will design for production. We have learned from the mistakes we made in the Tejas.

Besides, there is no ambiguity in the Mark II, as there was in the Mark I. There are not likely to be any changes in the engine, radar, missile, communications. The equipment is known.

*Q. The navy is concerned at the lack of progress in the Naval LCA*

The naval Tejas is a different challenge. We had incorrectly thought that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant would be easier. But, as we learnt, it is the other way round.

We began with an undercarriage built for the air force Tejas. *But landing on an aircraft carrier involves a much higher descent rate, which means the landing gear must be much stronger. When the aircraft catches the arrestor hook, the deceleration is enormous. When we did the load analysis, the whole bottom gear had to be re-engineered.*

I will not hesitate to say today that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant of the Tejas is a sub-optimal solution. But, having learnt this, the Mark II will be an optimal solution. We will not do any derivative from the air force version. It will be, ab initio, a naval design.

*Q. After the Tejas, ADA has been pushing hard for a programme to develop an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)? Where is that?*

There is no approved programme yet, but the DRDO had approved a feasibility study which we have done. We are trying to arrive at the specifications of an engine that can give us supercruise (i.e. flying at supersonic without afterburner) but that kind of engine is not readily available. So we are deliberating on whether we should start designing an engine ab initio, or improve upon an existing engine. *The IAF is very keen on the AMCA.*

*Q. How long would this take to enter service?*

*The AMCA would need 7-10 years for development, and so would enter production only in the mid-2020s*. We would require time for building prototypes, stabilising the design, establishing a production line. We would gain expertise from the (Indo-Russian) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme.

*Q. Would we have both the AMCA and the FGFA?*

These are two different classes of aircraft and there is no clash between them. The FGFA is a 30 tonne class heavy fighter with a long range. *The AMCA would be a 20 tonne medium fighter, with an extreme range of about 1000 km.*

Nor does it clash with the MMRCA. The Rafale is an early-1990s design. It does not fall into the 5th generation in terms of stealth characteristics. So the air force sees a place for the AMCA in its future fleet.

Broadsword: "There are no serious technology challenges ahead" says PS Subramanyam, Director ADA

@Capt.Popeye @sancho

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## Sergi

IND151 said:


> *Q. The navy is concerned at the lack of progress in the Naval LCA*
> 
> The naval Tejas is a different challenge. We had incorrectly thought that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant would be easier. But, *as we learnt, it is the other way round.*
> 
> 
> 
> @Capt.Popeye @sancho



*Jurno should have asked him about Navalising AMCA first and then deriving AF version *

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## IND151

Broadsword: Tejas fighter enters air force service

Livefist: Images From IOC Day For LCA Tejas

All you want to know about Tejas | idrw.org


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## fsayed

HariPrasad said:


> Add AMCA prototype.


 bro amca would b inducted by 2022 or 2023 thats y I font added amca but amca would another gem plus aura and rustum


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## trident2010

Good to see the smoke is shedding and Tejas is clearly becoming fully operational. Congrats India

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## HariPrasad

The best news I got is that it managed 24* AOA. If it shoots upto 28* or more, It will give us a highly agile capability and care free maneuvers. Key of performance lies in 
1) increasing AOA
2) refine the plane aerodynamically and,
3) weight reduction


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## HariPrasad

*Kaveri could power next LCA series: Antony Tribune News Service *

Bangalore, December 20
Defence Minister A K Antony today said the government had not yet given up its plan of powering the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the indigenously made Kaveri engine.

In a press conference here, which followed a function where LCA powered by American GE 404 engine was given the initial operational clearance (IOC) making it compliant with the requirements of the IAF for a battle ready aircraft, Antony said, “We have not abandoned the Kaveri engine project yet.”

The Defence Minister said while the LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2 varieties would be powered by the American GE 404 and GE 414 engines, respectively, Kaveri engine could be used to power the next LCA series.

He said the IAF would have two squadrons and four squadrons each of LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2, respectively. There would still be requirement of more planes as the IAF would eventually require about 200 planes to replace the entire MiG 21 fleet.

Kaveri engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab in Bangalore, was supposed to power the LCA initially. However, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), also a DRDO lab handling the LCA project, opted for the American GE engine as wait for Kaveri engine continued.

Antony, who spoke at length on the necessity of indigenisation in his speech in the IOC function, emphasised it once again. He talked about the aircraft carrier being built at Kochi, the next edition of the Arjun Battle Tank and Astra missiles being developed locally.

The success of the LCA project had shown the world that India was capable of making a modern aircraft, Antony said and added that the success would also give a big boost to the indigenisation efforts in the country.

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## HariPrasad

Open the treasure. Spent any demn amount but realize kaveri 120 KN.

Recently mishradhatu nigam limited has developed a metallurgy which can withstand a temperature of much more that what alloy used in kaveri. Build a 120 KN engine to power LCA MK 3 and AMCA.


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## trident2010

no harm in developing kaveri but it should not interfere with the induction of Tejas.

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## HariPrasad

trident2010 said:


> no harm in developing kaveri but it should not interfere with the induction of Tejas.




We can not make a sophisticated engine as GE414 but we can certainly make something equivalent to engine of MKI. We should try for that.


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## Jayanta

Why has the IAF reduced the number of MK2 to be inducted? Wasn't it... 40 LCA Mk 1 aircraft plus 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft on order. Plans to order LCA Mk 2 aircraft for 10 more squadrons (about 180 total aircraft) after completing production of LCA Mk 1


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## HariPrasad

Jayanta said:


> Why has the IAF reduced the number of MK2 to be inducted? The last I heard was a total of 10 squadrons of Tejas 2 MK1 and 8 MK2.




May be to induct Mk3


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## trident2010

HariPrasad said:


> We can not make a sophisticated engine as GE414 but we can certainly make something equivalent to engine of MKI. We should try for that.



We don't have to make directly something like F414. We need something simple but reliable for our own needs.


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## SRP



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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmm, great news if true but I'm a bit skeptical right now. Let's see.....
> 
> @sancho?



A refuelling probe for MK1 was mentioned by officials quiet often now, but so far no prototype has tested it and there are confusions about what kind of probe it will be. There were reports saying that it will be a retractable one and some people on BR automatically concluded that it would be one that will be housed internally. Imo, retractable in this case means only, that IAF can attach it to the airframe and simply remove it again, similar to the Mirage 2000 or Rafale and if we look at the brochures of the MK2, it should be obvious that no internal housing is intended.



Water Car Engineer said:


> 5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS *Python-5 *IIR close combat missile (Related post here)



That was only the idea of an Israeli journalist, based on the "presentation" of Rafael during aero India, but so far there is no official statement on procuring that missile.



Jayanta said:


> Why has the IAF reduced the number of MK2 to be inducted? Wasn't it... 40 LCA Mk 1 aircraft plus 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft on order. Plans to order LCA Mk 2 aircraft for 10 more squadrons (about 180 total aircraft) after completing production of LCA Mk 1



It wasn't reduced, the requirement was always around 6 to 7 x squads, similar to M-MRCA, since both will replace Mig 21s in numbers. The number of MK1 squads were even increased and form the 99 x GE 414 engines around 80 x will be used for IAFs MK2s => 4 x squads. The total number of Mig 21 squads including 2nd line fighters is only 16, so don't expect that many more, when there is hardly a requirement for 2 - 3 x additional squads and it needs to be seen if that will be the optional Rafales, additional FGFAs, or maybe even AMCAs by then, which gives a lot of competition to additional LCAs beyond 2022.

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## sancho

IND151 said:


> All that is pending is the integration of the “beyond visual range”, or BVR, missile. We are obtaining a BVR missile from Israel for integration and demonstration.



That basically confirms that neither Python V, nor R77 will be added as the rumors stated, additional weapons like Sudarshan, Helina, or Kh 35 might come with MK2 and N-LCA.




IND151 said:


> I’m targeting FOC for end-2014. This is realistic because the design processes are not starting now. The inflight refuelling system was ordered a year ago. Design and development for this has been on-going and some of the work is already half completed. So I am confident.



Confirmation for IFR on MK1




IND151 said:


> The naval Tejas is a different challenge. *We had incorrectly thought that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant would be easier. But, as we learnt, it is the other way round...*
> 
> *...I will not hesitate to say today that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant of the Tejas is a sub-optimal solution. But, having learnt this,* the Mark II will be an optimal solution. We will not do any derivative from the air force version. It will be, ab initio, a naval design.



Kudos for having the guts and publically say that ADA overestimated the development and made a mistake!
The only problem is, that they think N-LCA MK2 is an optimal solution and IF they had learned from that mistake, they would develop AMCA as a carrier fighter first and not for the air force again!!!



IND151 said:


> These are two different classes of aircraft and there is no clash between them. The FGFA is a 30 tonne class heavy fighter with a long range. The AMCA would be a 20 tonne medium fighter, with an extreme range of about 1000 km.
> 
> Nor does it clash with the MMRCA. The Rafale is an early-1990s design. It does not fall into the 5th generation in terms of stealth characteristics. So the air force sees a place for the AMCA in its future fleet.



LOL, he actually showed exactly why IAF doesn't need AMCA!  FGFA offers stealth and extreme range, while Rafale covers the medium class, not to forget that there will be around 400 x LCAs and MKIs for the next 3 x decades.
It would had been smarter to argue that AMCA would be a more cost-effective alternative to FGFA, but from operational and technical terms, he hardly can argue in favour for AMCA.

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## Gessler

@sancho

Correct, infact IAF hasn't decided yet on the definitive BVRAAM for Tejas Mk-1.

It could be either Derby or R-77, maybe even Astra Mk-1.


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> @sancho
> 
> Correct, infact IAF hasn't decided yet on the definitive BVRAAM for Tejas Mk-1.
> 
> It could be either Derby or R-77, maybe even Astra Mk-1.



Actually Astra is a given, but the MK1 version will not be capable enough to be used in operational service, that's why IAF will use the same Derby that IN wants anyway. So whenever Astra MK2 will be available, with a useful operational capability, it will replace Derby.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Actually Astra is a given, but the MK1 version will not be capable enough to be used in operational service, that's why IAF will use the same Derby that IN wants anyway. So whenever Astra MK2 will be available, with a useful operational capability, it will replace Derby.




By Astra Mk2, you mean the ramjet version same as meteor?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> By Astra Mk2, you mean the ramjet version same as meteor?



No, an improved version of the current Astra development. A Ramjet version is only a distant dream, we first need to get to a level to have something comparable to current R77.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> LOL, he actually showed exactly why IAF doesn't need AMCA!  FGFA offers stealth and extreme range, while Rafale covers the medium class, not to forget that there will be around 400 x LCAs and MKIs for the next 3 x decades.
> It would had been smarter to argue that AMCA would be a more cost-effective alternative to FGFA, but from operational and technical terms, he hardly can argue in favour for AMCA.



The paragraph says Rafale is not a 5th generation fighter and so there is a room for AMCA from the perspective of IAF


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## SrNair

I think this is our last modernization that uses foreign imported weapons.In next modernization we use only the weapons made in India.And also when present modernization( with some imported weapons)complete we have enough indegenious aerospace infrastructure and aviation industry that can compete major players in the world.LCA and all other system is base and intitiation for that

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## Water Car Engineer

Total flights

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## Sri

LCA brochure says Empty weight is 9800 Kgs and MTOW is 13000 Kgs and also the 3500 Kg ordinance... Somehow its not adding up. Also Envelope is is expanded to 24 deg. but from other sources it says 22 Deg?


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## Lil Mathew

Sri said:


> LCA brochure says Empty weight is 9800 Kgs and MTOW is 13000 Kgs and also the 3500 Kg ordinance... Somehow its not adding up. Also Envelope is is expanded to 24 deg. but from other sources it says 22 Deg?


 

9800kg is not empty weight (=6560kg)... It is the clean take off weight (As per old brochure Mk1 internal fuel was around 2,560kg) .... Also in new brochure Max take off weight is not mentioned... only external stores =3500kg is noted...


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## Sri

Lil Mathew said:


> 9800kg is not empty weight (=6560kg)... It is the clean take off weight (As per old brochure Mk1 internal fuel was around 2,560kg) .... Also in new brochure Max take off weight is not mentioned... only external stores =3500kg is noted...


Sorry for the typo, question is 9800 + 3500 = 13300 is more than 13000 KG which is MTOW.


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## Anony

Sri said:


> Sorry for the typo, question is 9800 + 3500 = 13300 is more than 13000 KG which is MTOW.



Because 9800kg is the clean take-off weight. And clean take off weight includes 2 BVR missiles (300kg-350kg).


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## Lil Mathew

Sri said:


> Sorry for the typo, question is 9800 + 3500 = 13300 is more than 13000 KG which is MTOW.


 Clean take off wt. =wt. of internal fuel+ wt. of pylons+wt. of two wvr missiles=9800kg.
wt. of two wvr missiles R73E= 2*105=210kg.(Wiki)
Total payload= 13000-9800+210 ~ 3.5T
Only a guess... No valid links...
But according to latest brochure, External store=3500kg.,Empty wt=6560kg, Take off clean=9800kg.

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## GURU DUTT

Lil Mathew said:


> Clean take off wt. =wt. of internal fuel+ wt. of pylons+wt. of two wvr missiles=9800kg.
> wt. of two wvr missiles R73E= 2*105=210kg.(Wiki)
> Total payload= 13000-9800+210 ~ 3.5T
> Only a guess... No valid links...
> But according to latest brochure, External store=3500kg.,Empty wt=6560kg, Take off clean=9800kg.


well bhai i dont still get it if LCA is lightests and smallest fighter jet in its class with maximum composites how come its wieght is almost identical to JF 17 and F 16 please do care to explain


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## indiatester

Sri said:


> LCA brochure says Empty weight is 9800 Kgs and MTOW is 13000 Kgs and also the 3500 Kg ordinance... Somehow its not adding up. Also Envelope is is expanded to 24 deg. but from other sources it says 22 Deg?


@sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 can you clarify about the 24/22 degree AoA.
IIRC the ASQR asks for 26 degree AoA.


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## Sri

Lil Mathew said:


> Clean take off wt. =wt. of internal fuel+ wt. of pylons+wt. of two wvr missiles=9800kg.
> wt. of two wvr missiles R73E= 2*105=210kg.(Wiki)
> Total payload= 13000-9800+210 ~ 3.5T
> Only a guess... No valid links...
> But according to latest brochure, External store=3500kg.,Empty wt=6560kg, Take off clean=9800kg.


Thanks for the answer, but my understanding is based on article - Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine 
Here Mr. Shukla does not consider R73E as part of ordinance i.e. 3.5T. 

_2. Reduction of Tejas' weight. 
The LCA’s designers say that the removal of telemetry instrumentation, which is essential during flight testing, will bring the Tejas’ weight down by as much as 300-400 kilos. Re-engineering some of the displays and sub-systems within the cockpit will lop off another 300 kilos; the weight reduction of 600-700 kilos is expected to allow the carriage of more weapons.

There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas’ weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons… carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.

But there’s a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So you’ll have to shed one ton… or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. That’s what happens when a fighter’s weight goes beyond what was originally planned.

So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament._


Thanks in Advance...


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## Lil Mathew

GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai i dont still get it if LCA is lightests and smallest fighter jet in its class with maximum composites how come its wieght is almost identical to JF 17 and F 16 please do care to explain



Main reason is LCA's wing area~38.8m2 against jf17's wing area~24.8.. That is 50% more area although it is smaller.. Also wing conf- (wing must support itself ,so big wing more wt for additional streangthening [delta wing conf. also helps here]).. Fuselage and wing attachments are also more streangthened.. So high area low wing loading delta wing achieved here with same wt. of jf.. From diff forum posts so no validity..


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## Jayanta

One more silly question: In MK2, the use of GE-414 will increase the weapon load from 4000 kg to 5000 kg (if I am not wrong)..does it mean there will be an increase in hard points...or just change in armaments.


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## Gessler

Jayanta said:


> One more silly question: In MK2, the use of GE-414 will increase the weapon load from 4000 kg to 5000 kg (if I am not wrong)..does it mean there will be an increase in hard points...or just change in armaments.



Number of hardpoints will remain the same - 8 hardpoints. However increase
in payload capacity could mean we can put multiple-rack ejectors on the hardpoints.

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## HariPrasad

rockstarIN said:


> By Astra Mk2, you mean the ramjet version same as meteor?




Ramjet doesn't mean very high speed always. LRSAM uses duel pulse motor and 1/3 of the weight of Akash and still have double the range. Astra MK 1 is a very potent missile in itself having a speed of Mach 3 means as fast as Akask.


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## Dillinger

Gessler said:


> Number of hardpoints will remain the same - 8 hardpoints. However increase
> in payload capacity could mean we can put multiple-rack ejectors on the hardpoints.



Consider the fact we already have drag related issues with the platform, multiple ejector racks might be a bit of a challenge, specially for the indigenous weapons for which we have not developed such pylons (and no, fabricating and qualifying said pylons is not so simple a task). Alas the position of the landing gear ensures that the undercarriage hardpoint cannot really accommodate anything too broad otherwise one could have ventured towards a weapons pod.


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## Abingdonboy




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## Abingdonboy




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## HariPrasad

trident2010 said:


> We don't have to make directly something like F414. We need something simple but reliable for our own needs.




Correct.

Concentrate on Performance and forget abuot other parameter such Weight etc. We can reduce it later but we need to have a proper power engine in hand.



Anony said:


> Because 9800kg is the clean take-off weight. And clean take off weight includes 2 BVR missiles (300kg-350kg).


 

Tamil mani said that gross weight 9.0 tons.

Director General Aeronautics and Chief Executive of CEMILAC Dr. K. Tamil Mani told _The Hindu_ that Tejas was the best aircraft in the LCA category. Apart from being the lightest, with a gross weight of just about 9 tons, it was also the most cost effective as its price ranged from between Rs 170 and Rs 180 crore, which was almost a third of similar fourth generation aircraft.

Tejas all set to get certification for IAF induction - The Hindu


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## Indischer

HariPrasad said:


> Correct.
> 
> Concentrate on Performance and forget abuot other parameter such Weight etc. We can reduce it later but we need to have a proper power engine in hand.



The requisite dimensional constraints have to be respected too...No point in constructing a more powerful engine that cannot fit into the engine bay/rear fuselage of the LCA.


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## Abingdonboy




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## HariPrasad

Indischer said:


> The requisite dimensional constraints have to be respected too...No point in constructing a more powerful engine that cannot fit into the engine bay/rear fuselage of the LCA.




To some extent, the change in dimensions are acceptable. Such as GE 404 And GE 414. we should take into account while designing the engine.


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## GURU DUTT

Lil Mathew said:


> Main reason is LCA's wing area~38.8m2 against jf17's wing area~24.8.. That is 50% more area although it is smaller.. Also wing conf- (wing must support itself ,so big wing more wt for additional streangthening [delta wing conf. also helps here]).. Fuselage and wing attachments are also more streangthened.. So high area low wing loading delta wing achieved here with same wt. of jf.. From diff forum posts so no validity..


but bhai what is the use of such large wings LCAs wing are looks so much disproporshionate to its overall size .... i mean wat can LCA acieve from such a large wing area it produces so much drag aswell please care to explain thanks in advance


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## Lil Mathew

indiatester said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 can you clarify about the 24/22 degree AoA.
> IIRC the ASQR asks for 26 degree AoA.


 
Envelope expansion upto 24 deg AOA completed...[ADA Tejas Brochure]
Also the Air Force wants the aircraft to improve its angle of attack from 24 degrees to 28 degrees before FOC...[The Hindu]

Tejas all set to get certification for IAF induction - The Hindu

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## HariPrasad

“Though to integrate Indian weapons is not a planned test point for the final operational clearance (FOC) of Tejas, we have started working on it for some time now. The Astra missile integration with an improvised range of 80-plus km (currently 40-45 km) is the next big challenge. We have also planned some PGMs (precision-guided munitions) for Tejas, including glide bombs and GPS-guided bombs,” Mani said.

DRDO Set to Increase Desi Components on LCA -The New Indian Express

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## sudhir007

Why the Indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be a game changer | Firstpost

Major Indian defence exporters including Russia, the United States, Israel and France need to worry as India is on course to acquire a capability it has long been working for but operational success has remained elusive. A few days ago India stepped closer to scripting history in a major defence indigenization effort: building its own fighter aircraft with stealth capabilities. On 20 December, the Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO)-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas got Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) for induction into the Indian Air Force. The event marked fruition of a long and difficult journey of three decades of efforts to make a fighter aircraft of international standards. If all goes well, the four plus generation aircraft is likely to get the Final Operational Clearance by December 2014 and be formally inducted into the IAF. It will also be inducted into the Indian Navy in due course. The Tejas project has cost India just Rs 7,000 crore – peanuts when compared to costs of similar aircraft in the world. The aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014. The DRDO is also working on making an advanced medium aircraft with twin engines. The induction of the Tejas has been delayed for years. PTI The induction of the Tejas has been delayed for years. PTI To put things in perspective, IAF Chief NAK Browne hailed the LCA Tejas project and said the progress of such a challenging experimental project without any accident or major incident was unprecedented in the history of aviation. Incidentally, Tejas got the IOC just days before his retirement at the end of this month. Another important factor to be borne in mind is that Tejas getting IOC has given a major boost to India’s military aviation along with the approval of several new programmes, such as Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft. Tejas is designed to ultimately replace the Mig-21 series of IAF fleet of IAF and the timing of its IOC coincided with the iconic Mig-21 FL fighter flying into IAF’s history just a week ago. While granting the IOC to Tejas, Defence Minister AK Antony pointed out that the capabilities of the aircraft had been improved significantly in the past three years. “In recognition of the enhanced capabilities, IAF has decided to grant the aircraft a higher status, namely, the Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the Service,” he said. Antony candidly admitted that he had his share of anxieties regarding the future of LCA ever since he had taken over as defence minister in 2006 but was happy to put behind the moments of self-doubt, frustrations and setbacks of past 30 years. “The improvements to the aircraft have enhanced the flight envelope of the aircraft and also weapon delivery capability of the aircraft. The performance at Iron Fist, Jaisalmer and the recent missile firing at Goa are examples of such improvements. The reliability of the aircraft and serviceability has also been enhanced. The number of flights nearing 500 within this year provides an indication of this. Operating at IAF bases namely, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwaliar, Goa, Leh, Pathankot demonstrate the aircraft capability to operate from Air Force bases. There have also been occasions when the same aircraft has flown thrice on the same day, indicating the operational reliability of this home-bred fighter aircraft,” Antony observed while giving the IOC to Tejas in Bengaluru on 20 December. Tejas is the smallest, light weight, single engine, single seat, and supersonic, multirole, combat aircraft. Defence ministry’s chief spokesperson Sitanshu Kar has described it as “one of the best in its class in the world” and said its four variants, including combat, trainer and naval, are being developed for land and carrier borne operations. Kar gave out some key features of Tejas remarking thus: “The quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system ensures acceptable handling qualities while ensuring adequate safety throughout the flight envelope. The advanced Glass cockpit open architecture system complements piloting.” When Tejas got its first IOC on 10 January 2011, it still suffered from some rough patches as the aircraft had a few limitations in terms of Combat performance, turn- around time and its weaponisation which had to be refined and improved. Till date, more than 2450 sorties have been completed to achieve the flight test goals towards IOC-2 and the design issues were resolved. Tejas has the Multi Mode Weapon multirole capability, can fire Laser Guided Bombs, has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” and has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support. It will enable the IAF to carry out air superiority and offensive air support missions, forward air field operations, all weather multi role operations, electronic counter measures and night flying operations. Moreover, Tejas is capable of flying non-stop to destinations over 1700 km away and its Radius of Action is up to 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat. Tejas marks an important chapter in the annals of Indian defence industry towards self-reliance. The development also opens up an opportunity for India’s public and private sector to work in tandem to develop and produce world-class military systems of the highest quality.


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## rockstarIN

HariPrasad said:


> “Though to integrate Indian weapons is not a planned test point for the final operational clearance (FOC) of Tejas, we have started working on it for some time now. T*he Astra missile integration with an improvised range of 80-plus km (currently 40-45 km) is the next big challenge.* We have also planned some PGMs (precision-guided munitions) for Tejas, including glide bombs and GPS-guided bombs,” Mani said.
> 
> DRDO Set to Increase Desi Components on LCA -The New Indian Express



It is not Astra range, the radar range is 45 km now due to the nose composite material which absorbs limits the radar performance.



Lil Mathew said:


> Envelope expansion upto 24 deg AOA completed...[ADA Tejas Brochure]
> Also the Air Force wants the aircraft to improve its angle of attack from 24 degrees to 28 degrees before FOC...[The Hindu]
> 
> Tejas all set to get certification for IAF induction - The Hindu




It should not be a problem, the achieved 24 degree from the FOC -1 standard of 17degree in two years.


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## Lil Mathew

GURU DUTT said:


> but bhai what is the use of such large wings LCAs wing are looks so much disproporshionate to its overall size .... i mean wat can LCA acieve from such a large wing area it produces so much drag aswell please care to explain thanks in advance


 

High wing area means low wing loading ,high manoeuvrability in the airframe.....Good lift characteristics... good climb rate and cruising capabilities.... Good ITR and STR..High alpha(35 deg design)... Every modern fighters are low wing loaded(TYPHOON,RAFALE,GRIPPEN,F-22,F-35,PAKFA).. 
I think you mean the drag issues in STR... STR also depended on wing loading and TWR... Low wing loading and high TWR in LCA solved that issue... There were reports that IAF not satisfied with STR and LEVCONS are adding in IAF LCA'S along with NAVAL LCA's but the plan is dropped because already LCA achieved reqd STR with partially opened flight envelop and low thrust engine...
Other drag issues are reduced by extensive wing body blending and area ruled fuselage... Skin friction drag controlled with two hollow spill ducts on the wing connect with the intake splitter.....

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## HariPrasad

rockstarIN said:


> It is not Astra range, the radar range is 45 km now due to the nose composite material which absorbs limits the radar performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It should not be a problem, the achieved 24 degree from the FOC -1 standard of 17degree in two years.




Astra MK 1 has 45 KM range.

Man, Pl read the news properly. It is non me who is saying this. This is the statement of Mr. Tamil Mani, the Director-General (Aeronautical Systems). So get cool. this is authentic statement.


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## rockstarIN

HariPrasad said:


> Ramjet doesn't mean very high speed always. LRSAM uses duel pulse motor and 1/3 of the weight of Akash and still have double the range. Astra MK 1 is a very potent missile in itself having a speed of Mach 3 means as fast as Akask.




It adds kinetic performance without adding much weight, thus the expansion of no-escape zone.



HariPrasad said:


> Astra MK 1 has 45 KM range.
> 
> Man, Pl read the news properly. It is non me who is saying this. This is the statement of Mr. Tamil Mani, the Director-General (Aeronautical Systems). So get cool. this is authentic statement.



Depends altitude, what I read earlier in high altitude it can go till 80 km. However I will check again.


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## HariPrasad

Lil Mathew said:


> High wing area means low wing loading ,high manoeuvrability in the airframe.....Good lift characteristics... good climb rate and cruising capabilities.... Good ITR and STR..High alpha(35 deg design)... Every modern fighters are low wing loaded(TYPHOON,RAFALE,GRIPPEN,F-22,F-35,PAKFA)..
> I think you mean the drag issues in STR... STR also depended on wing loading and TWR... Low wing loading and high TWR in LCA solved that issue... There were reports that IAF not satisfied with STR and LEVCONS are adding in IAF LCA'S along with NAVAL LCA's but the plan is dropped because already LCA achieved reqd STR with partially opened flight envelop and low thrust engine...
> Other drag issues are reduced by extensive wing body blending and area ruled fuselage... Skin friction drag controlled with two hollow spill ducts on the wing connect with the intake splitter.....




Noe of the aircraft (I gauze) has low wing loading as Tejas has. I have read many discussion point to unusually big wing for drag issue and poor turn rate issue. We have seen Tejas completing vertical loop in comparatively low time (20-21 Second) but we have yet to see it doing the same in horizantal loop. This is the reason parheps they are not increasing wing size in spite of MK 2 being longer and marginally wider with more powerful engine. 

It is very difficult to say anything conclusively. 

Lavcon plan is not drop for Naval LCA so far as I know. It is not for STR only. It is for lift as Naval LCA is required to take off with a very short run way i.e AC.



rockstarIN said:


> It adds kinetic performance without adding much weight, thus the expansion of no-escape zone.




This is correct as Oxidizer is not required for combustion. However Air intake often increases the drag and nullify (To some extent) the advantage of high speed (As we show in case of Akash). Pulse motor is often used to increase the power and speed of missile as we show in case of LRSAM (you will perhaps witness the same in PDV test comming in few days if Video is released).



rockstarIN said:


> Depends altitude, what I read earlier in high altitude it can go till 80 km. However I will check again




This is true for All AAM not for Astra only.


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## Manindra

Gessler said:


> Number of hardpoints will remain the same - 8 hardpoints. However increase
> in payload capacity could mean we can put multiple-rack ejectors on the hardpoints.



MK1 has 8 hardpoint but MK2 would be 9 hard point.

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## Gessler

Manindra said:


> MK1 has 8 hardpoint but MK2 would be 9 hard point.



Where will be 9th one?


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## Black Widow

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I am alive?


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## sudhir007

Just watch from 5.30 missile firing and dummy target hit.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> The paragraph says Rafale is not a 5th generation fighter and so there is a room for AMCA from the perspective of IAF



Just that the stealth capability is not defined by the weight class! IAF don't neet a medium class fighter with stealth capabilities, unless it gives certain differences / advantages over the FGFA that is meant to add stealth capability. See F22 and F35 for example, both stealthfighters in different class, but the only reason that makes F35 different, is that it is developed with different operational capabilities in mind, not just a different weight class!
It was meant to have better strike capabilities, to be more cost-effective and to replace all other medium class fighters and take over the medium class roles. That however is not the case for AMCA in IAF, since it also is a twin engine fighter aimed on high maneuverability, with similar capabilities like SC or TVC, while it doesn't even will add a better weapon load config in strike roles. Not to forget that AMCA would work in the same class and the same roles that IAF will use Rafale in. So there are overlapping requirements, roles and even lifecycles from all points of views.
That's why I said, IF the AMCA would be developed as a downsized FGFA instead (common parts, medium class, single type 30 engine) with the aim to have a less expensive alternative to FGFA as a stealthfighter (and not to Rafale), to increase the number of stealth fighters in the most cost-effective way, it would make sense for IAF too, but then ADA/DRDO might have very limited work to do, which they won't like either.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Total flights



Antony kicked some serious a... in 2013!


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## sancho

Sri said:


> LCA brochure says Empty weight is 9800 Kgs and MTOW is 13000 Kgs and also the 3500 Kg ordinance... Somehow its not adding up.



It's 13300Kg MTOW:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2330/feb20112.jpg




Manindra said:


> MK1 has 8 hardpoint but MK2 would be 9 hard point.



That's not correct, the MK2 has the same hardpoint layout as the MK1, as said as it is:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I40Q_WKDw8I/TgzusFozLkI/AAAAAAAAAJs/YLqrL8qRqzA/s1600/Tejas+LCA+Mk2.jpg




Dillinger said:


> Consider the fact we already have drag related issues with the platform, multiple ejector racks might be a bit of a challenge, specially for the indigenous weapons for which we have not developed such pylons (and no, fabricating and qualifying said pylons is not so simple a task). Alas the position of the landing gear ensures that the undercarriage hardpoint cannot really accommodate anything too broad otherwise one could have ventured towards a weapons pod.



True, but we are talking about the MK2, that will have more thrust to hopefully overcome the drag issue. Another point is, that IF the MK2 can gain a useful increase of internal fuel, we might need to carry only a single centerline fuel tank in strike roles, where the MK1 needs 2 x draggier wing fuel tanks. And that it always depends on what weapons will be added at what multi pylons. When we take the Rafault twin pylon as an example, that can carry 2 x 250Kg LGBs at the Mirage 2000, the drag increase compared to carrying a single 500Kg LGB might not be that different, but I share your point that such multi pylons might be a long shot for indigenous weapons. So far we know that Sudarshan is aimed on 500Kg versions and they can't be used with multi pylons for sure.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Just that the stealth capability is not defined by the weight class! IAF don't neet a medium class fighter with stealth capabilities, unless it gives certain differences / advantages over the FGFA that is meant to add stealth capability. See F22 and F35 for example, both stealthfighters in different class, but the only reason that makes F35 different, is that it is developed with different operational capabilities in mind, not just a different weight class!
> It was meant to have better strike capabilities, to be more cost-effective and to replace all other medium class fighters and take over the medium class roles. That however is not the case for AMCA in IAF, since it also is a twin engine fighter aimed on high maneuverability, with similar capabilities like SC or TVC, while it doesn't even will add a better weapon load config in strike roles. Not to forget that AMCA would work in the same class and the same roles that IAF will use Rafale in. So there are overlapping requirements, roles and even lifecycles from all points of views.
> That's why I said, IF the AMCA would be developed as a downsized FGFA instead (common parts, medium class, single type 30 engine) with the aim to have a less expensive alternative to FGFA as a stealthfighter (and not to Rafale), to increase the number of stealth fighters in the most cost-effective way, it would make sense for IAF too, but then ADA/DRDO might have very limited work to do, which they won't like either.
> 
> Antony kicked some serious a... in 2013!


My guess is AMCA will be considered only after MK-2 FOC... if MK-2 is meeting the expectations then ADA or HAL will not have any work left apart from patches and new R&D... Any way i believe there they start doing common work for both Manned and Un-Manned platforms... I believe in this way they will achieve stealth in AMCA and UCAV... This is how they will reduce cost and maintenance over head for IAF... Any way we had a conflict on future whether everything will become un-manned where i still stand disagreed , time will be the output my friend..


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## SQ8

I am going to go ahead and put a odd one out in this discussion.. 

I Present to you the aircraft that should have been the Tejas(and would have rolled out sooner too). 

*The HAL/Sukhoi S-54 LCA Tejas!*


Highly manoeuvrable , carrier capable with little modification; the aircraft is powered by the same AL-31F engine as the Su-30MKI which offers additional logistic commonality for the IAF. Two versions that would have 80% commonality with the other. The first is the operational fighter known as the LCA-F with the ELTA EL/M-2052 for air defence missions seen here on the runway at IAFS Kalaikunda and deploying flares during training exercises.

*S-54 Tejas with operational loadout of GP-9 Gunpod, Astra BVRAAM, KH-29 missiles and R-74 WVR missiles*






*S-54 Tejas punching out flares whilst on training. Carrying Derby and R-74 AAMs.*







The sister AJT and LIFT version of the Tejas known as the LCA-T lacks the canards,longer nose and IFR probe of the fighter but is otherwise completely common with the LCA-F.It uses the ELTA EL/M-2032 radar with a smaller antenna that still provides excellent radar coverage to 40km and allows the usage of BVR weaponry. This version is capable of employing all the weaponry of the LCA-F and capable of augmenting or supplementing the LCA-F in strike, CAS, BAI and OCA roles whilst also capable of performing point interception and local combat air patrols.

*LCA-T waiting to join in on the local training sortie. Equipped with ATGMs for CAS role along with stand off munitions dispenser.*
*



*

*Tejas-T with AL-31FT in full afterburner rotating out of IAFS Kalaikunda*

*



*

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## kingdurgaking

Oscar said:


> I am going to go ahead and put a odd one out in this discussion..
> 
> I Present to you the aircraft that should have been the Tejas(and would have rolled out sooner too).
> 
> *The HAL/Sukhoi S-54 LCA Tejas!*
> 
> 
> Highly manoeuvrable , carrier capable with little modification; the aircraft is powered by the same AL-31F engine as the Su-30MKI which offers additional logistic commonality for the IAF. Two versions that would have 80% commonality with the other. The first is the operational fighter known as the LCA-F with the ELTA EL/M-2052 for air defence missions seen here on the runway at IAFS Kalaikunda and deploying flares during training exercises.
> 
> *S-54 Tejas with operational loadout of GP-9 Gunpod, Astra BVRAAM, KH-29 missiles and R-74 WVR missiles*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *S-54 Tejas punching out flares whilst on training. Carrying Derby and R-74 AAMs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sister AJT and LIFT version of the Tejas known as the LCA-T lacks the canards,longer nose and IFR probe of the fighter but is otherwise completely common with the LCA-F.It uses the ELTA EL/M-2032 radar with a smaller antenna that still provides excellent radar coverage to 40km and allows the usage of BVR weaponry. This version is capable of employing all the weaponry of the LCA-F and capable of augmenting or supplementing the LCA-F in strike, CAS, BAI and OCA roles whilst also capable of performing point interception and local combat air patrols.
> 
> *LCA-T waiting to join in on the local training sortie. Equipped with ATGMs for CAS role along with stand off munitions dispenser.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Tejas-T with AL-31FT in full afterburner rotating out of IAFS Kalaikunda*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



Things have change from 2008 from the day i was watching this forum...
Mods have transformed from serious people to comedians..

you where right in your foot note.. the second part to be precise


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> I am going to go ahead and put a odd one out in this discussion..
> 
> I Present to you the aircraft that should have been the Tejas(and would have rolled out sooner too).



LCA as a project started before there was talk about procuring the Su 30, which is why the S54 was not a possibility at the time I think. The general idea however is similar to what I say about FGFA => AMCA. Taking advantage of the same engine and other common parts, in a medium class single engine design. Can you do something in that regard?

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## Robinhood Pandey

LCA Tejas: A `game changer’ for air defence | Business Line
*LCA Tejas: A `game changer’ for air defence*
M. SOMASEKHAR
COMMENT · PRINT · T+ 





PTILight Combat Aircraft, Tejas

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HYDERABAD, DEC. 23: 


The induction of the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas into the Indian Air Force will be a `game changer’ for the country’s air defence preparedness, says Avinash Chander, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

"Though delayed, the India developed fighter aircraft has emerged as a `contemporary aircraft, as good or in a way better than the competitors in its class", Avinash Chander told Business Line.

The LCA signals the country’s indigenous capability to develop a major air-based weapon platform and a step towards achieving self-reliance in aircraft design, fabrication and manufacture. It has laid a sound base for a smooth take off in the efforts to develop more advanced fighter aircraft in the future, Avinash Chander, the Chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

The fighter aircraft, which obtained the Initial Operation Clearance on December 20, is a step away from induction into the IAF to replace the ageing MiG-21 aircraft. The immediate plan was to induct six squadrons of the IAF with the Tejas. This means about 120 aircraft. Already, the IAF has placed orders for two squadrons. Similarly, the Indian Navy will have at least 40 of the naval version of the fighter aircraft.

In the next 10 years, at least 200 LCA numbers are expected to bolster the country’s air strike power. The HAL, which will manufacture these aircraft will provide 16 per year. It has built capacity and will further ramp up production facilities.

The DRDO Chief saw Rs 100,000 crore opportunity in the next decade in the defence aircraft industry for the country. The gradual induction of the LCA will ensure a forex saving to the tune of Rs 50,000 crore. In addition, the savings on life cycle and maintenance costs will be close to that figure in the long run, he explained.

There is tremendous scope for small and medium enterprises to make components and sub-systems and supply to HAL. It will also lead to creation of expertise and industrial infrastructure in the country


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## sudhir007



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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> LCA as a project started before there was talk about procuring the Su 30, which is why the S54 was not a possibility at the time I think. The general idea however is similar to what I say about FGFA => AMCA. Taking advantage of the same engine and other common parts, in a medium class single engine design. Can you do something in that regard?




I would recommend FGFA+LCA =>AMCA. why should we leave our hard earned expertise for 30 years?


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## Manindra

Gessler said:


> Where will be 9th one?





sancho said:


> That's not correct, the MK2 has the same hardpoint layout as the MK1, as said as it is:
> 
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I40Q_WKDw8I/TgzusFozLkI/AAAAAAAAAJs/YLqrL8qRqzA/s1600/Tejas+LCA+Mk2.jpg



I rode Interview of ADA director which currently I am unable to found in which he said that the addition of 9th hardpoint would be for LIGHTNING POD.


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## HariPrasad

Some calculations on the Payload of LCA from Bharat Rakshak where Mr. indranil Roy has worked out Payload from the pictures Loaded LCA.

Pl add further 300 KG of LDP which he missed to calculate.

It comes to 4334 KG+ weight of Fuel Tanks if the Middle carries 1200 liters of fuel

It comes to 4010 KG+ weight of Fuel Tanks if the Middle carries 800 liters of fuel.


SO it is very much above 4 tons in any case.

Weight Calculation As per Mr. Roy.


If that center line tank is a 1200 ltr tank, the payload is:
Fuel weight(3600 ltrs) = 2916 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 4034 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

Even if it is a 800 ltr tank the payload is:
Fuel weight(3200 ltrs) = 2592 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 3710 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> I am going to go ahead and put a odd one out in this discussion..
> 
> I Present to you the aircraft that should have been the Tejas(and would have rolled out sooner too).
> 
> *The HAL/Sukhoi S-54 LCA Tejas!*
> 
> 
> Highly manoeuvrable , carrier capable with little modification; the aircraft is powered by the same AL-31F engine as the Su-30MKI which offers additional logistic commonality for the IAF. Two versions that would have 80% commonality with the other. The first is the operational fighter known as the LCA-F with the ELTA EL/M-2052 for air defence missions seen here on the runway at IAFS Kalaikunda and deploying flares during training exercises.
> 
> *S-54 Tejas with operational loadout of GP-9 Gunpod, Astra BVRAAM, KH-29 missiles and R-74 WVR missiles*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *S-54 Tejas punching out flares whilst on training. Carrying Derby and R-74 AAMs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sister AJT and LIFT version of the Tejas known as the LCA-T lacks the canards,longer nose and IFR probe of the fighter but is otherwise completely common with the LCA-F.It uses the ELTA EL/M-2032 radar with a smaller antenna that still provides excellent radar coverage to 40km and allows the usage of BVR weaponry. This version is capable of employing all the weaponry of the LCA-F and capable of augmenting or supplementing the LCA-F in strike, CAS, BAI and OCA roles whilst also capable of performing point interception and local combat air patrols.
> 
> *LCA-T waiting to join in on the local training sortie. Equipped with ATGMs for CAS role along with stand off munitions dispenser.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Tejas-T with AL-31FT in full afterburner rotating out of IAFS Kalaikunda*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


 
@Oscar, that seems to be a really good concept.
As a matter of fact; there was a thread here by a Russian colleague probably @vostok about a new light single engined fighter planned in Russia. I think that would be a great concept direction to go towards by ADA after terminating the Tejas Mk.2 at the presently planned levels. The technological levels acquired so far and in the works will be sufficient to work on that.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> I would recommend FGFA+LCA =>AMCA. why should we leave our hard earned expertise for 30 years?



 me 2 buddy, see:

Indian AMCA proposal | Page 4


However, LCA is a 4th gen project and from the technical point of view, there is hardly anything useful that could be diverted to AMCA, while FGFA is already a 5th gen fighter, which makes share of parts far easier. As I showed in my post above, I still think we should aim AMCA on the same design aims that we had with LCA, since they had a low RCS and being cost-effective in mind too, so taking the same aims for a 5th gen fighter should be a logical evolution. And the lessons learned from N-LCA (be it positive or negative), should be used in developing an AMCA for IN as well, although most of the design will be completely different, because of stealth or the aim on catapult take off primarily. But taking N-LCA Tech Demonstrator as a base, will ease the development of a new carrier fighter by far.

So LCA/N-LCA => AMCA yes, but only as an evolution of the LCA development
While FGFA => AMCA would be shared parts, to shorten the development and reduce risks



Manindra said:


> I rode Interview of ADA director which currently I am unable to found in which he said that the addition of 9th hardpoint would be for LIGHTNING POD.



LCA already has a pod station, that carries the Litenting, or the Reccelite pod in future, so another pod station wouldn't make sense.

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## Gessler

*Tejas Mk-1 MRCA's Projected Operational Configurations*

Though the Tejas Mk1 MRCA will fully certified as an operational platform 
only by 2016, as it exists today, the MRCA’s tandem-seat operational 
conversion trainer variant is probably the best available lead-in fighter
trainer (LIFT) with significant export prospects.






The slide below shows the various external add-on sensors, target acquisition/designation systems and
dissimilar air combat training aids that will make the Tejas Mk1 a truly potent MRCA.






The slide below shows the lightweight precision-guided munitions available for the Tejas Mk1.






The slide below shows the PGMs and sensors/fire-control systems for the Tejas Mk1 in the defensive
counter-air mission configuration.






The slide below shows the Tejas Mk1 in the tactical interdiction mission configuration.






Finally, the slide below shows the Tejas Mk1 in the battlefield interdiction (close air-support) mission
configuration.






TRISHUL: Tejas Mk1 MRCA’s Projected Operational Configurations

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## sancho

Gessler said:


> *Tejas Mk-1 MRCA's Projected Operational Configurations*



Those configs doesn't make any sense! It shows 115 and 250Kg LGBs, while IAF is aiming on 500Kg bombs for MK1 and as confirmed from officials, only Derby will be added till the FOC, which rules out any other new weapon. Then it shows the Rafault multi pylon of the Rafale, to carry the speculative triple bomb configs, but the mid wing station most likely doesn't support the weight of the Rafault with 3 x 250Kg LGBs.
The he defensive counter-air config shows a total of 8 x missiles, although only 6 x wingstations are available. 
In actical interdiction config, it shows all wingstations ocupied with weapons, which would leave only an 800l centerline fuel tank, far too less for such a load and any useful range.

IF IAF would want to add new foreign weapons, the best additions would be Rafael SPICE 2000 (which the M2K UPG seems to get), as well as the integration of SPICE 250 with a quadpack at the centerline station. That would give LCA heavy strike capability (bunker buster), CAS and even SEAD capability, while the wingstations will remain free for fuel, BVR and WVR weapons.

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## IND151

TRISHUL: Tejas Mk1 MRCA’s Projected Operational Configurations


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## Guynextdoor2

I have a dumb question. If Tejas will take time to come in, why are we selling Sukhois? Let the newer plaforms be in service till the new squadrons come in?


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## Cohen1984

Tejas fighter is in itself a good start but i think India has a long way to go. However i wish the best to India for the future

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## WAR-rior

I am waiting for Delta winged AMCA model. It wud be a beauty. 5th gen tailless plane. Sexy.

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## SQ8

apart from feel good notions.. the article does not answer its main claim: _The Tejas is the best in its class in the world. _ Best at what? flyaway cost? technology? ease of maintenance? growth potential? what? Compared to what? The Gripen NG? 

Such articles are useless, its better to look at other articles published on Tejas by Indian professionals rather than newspaper reporters.

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## Iggy

Some times I just wanna kick these DRDO guys and journalists..We understand that its the first aircraft made by us and its tend to have some faults.. Why shoving indigestible statements into our throats? Every one is learning from their own mistakes..

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## Sergi

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I have a dumb question. If Tejas will take time to come in, why are we selling Sukhois? Let the newer plaforms be in service till the new squadrons come in?


We are not selling Sukhois. We might end up buying more.


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## Jade

Good that at last we will be seeing Tejas in action


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## Bullet500

Its best in class as its the only fighter in its class...BS article. Its just a small step towards self reliance.


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## Ra'ad

FOX80 said:


> For Chander, the potential to tweak the existing Tejas and produce variants, along with the confidence in the Indian aviation industry, that the LCA has generated, are the biggest two fundamental advantages of the project.
> 
> In case of Tejas, we now have the capability of stocking up the parts and being ready in advance, in case the need arises," Chander substantiated.





FOX80 said:


> the design and development of the LCA has helped establish an entire ecosystem that will work as a platform for future aircraft manufacturing in the country.



This is the real advantage of this project. The development of aviation industry and technical manpower. This is how these projects should be seen in both India and Pakistan...its not the aircrafts but capability. South Asia will soon have a mature aviation industry and might start grabbing the aviation market worldwide.

Once the capability is there one can also engage in JVs to help the aviation industry evolve quickly.

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## SQ8

Bullet500 said:


> Its best in class as its the only fighter in its class...BS article. Its just a small step towards self reliance.



There are other fighters that fall in that class. So no, it cannot be the best unless it is compared on various aspects.

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## GR!FF!N

FOX80 said:


> "It was only in *1993* that the proposal for development of Tejas was submitted.



should we use this date for our counter argument of "So long development phase" type argument from the next time???cause,most of the time members use 1983 as the year when making of Tejas actually started.


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## faithfulguy

WAR-rior said:


> I am waiting for Delta winged AMCA model. It wud be a beauty. 5th gen tailless plane. Sexy.




AMCA is in the shelves now. India might not make that plane if it already have PAKFA.



Bullet500 said:


> Its best in class as its the only fighter in its class...BS article. Its just a small step towards self reliance.



True. First place in the competition of one. And it take India over 30 years to build this plane.
Don't expect MKII until 2020 at earliest.


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## KRAIT

faithfulguy said:


> AMCA is in the shelves now. India might not make that plane if it already have PAKFA.True. First place in the competition of one. And it take India over 30 years to build this plane.Don't expect MKII until 2020 at earliest.


Medium weight stealth plane will be required as PAKFA modified to FGFA, according to Indian specifications, will be a heavy weight fighter. 
Tejas took 2 decades. Kindly read the article. The actual work started in 1993.


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## Capt.Popeye

GR!FF!N said:


> should we use this date for our counter argument of "So long development phase" type argument from the next time???cause,most of the time members use 1983 as the year when making of Tejas actually started.


 
1983 was when the design concepts were begun to be considered. Kind of brain-storming began then.

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## Shadow_Hunter

GR!FF!N said:


> should we use this date for our counter argument of "So long development phase" type argument from the next time???cause,most of the time members use 1983 as the year when making of Tejas actually started.



1983-1993, only technologies for Tejas were being defined and infra was develop 1993 was when the actual development started. Infact ADA itself was formed in 1984 and ASR requirements were only finalized in 1985. So 1983 cannot called be the year when development for Tejas started.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> apart from feel good notions.. the article does not answer its main claim: _The Tejas is the best in its class in the world. _ Best at what? flyaway cost? technology? ease of maintenance? growth potential? what? Compared to what? The Gripen NG?
> 
> Such articles are useless, its better to look at other articles published on Tejas by Indian professionals rather than newspaper reporters.


Bane of booming profession of journalism in India... the idea is get anyone from Industrial reporting and stick them in defence reporting, most don't know the difference between BVR and WVR, anything with a pointy head and fire in the butt is an advanced missile for them.... 

My expectations from tejas has dwindled over the years, development over the past decade has institutional lethargy over it. FG414 could have gone into production of not for the same chillaxed behavior. Nose cone issue if true should result in some some firings, it is an issue that has no excuse. I haven't heard much on supersonic maneuverability either. I dont want to sound like a proponent of conspiracy scripts, but to me there seems to be an intentional lethargy in progress of LCA, and by no means it is best in class as a light weight fighter with development time frame, tracking and engagement, AOA. etc especially when in contention there are Mirage 2000, Saab JAS, , FC1/jf17, AIDC F-CK-1, FA-50



Capt.Popeye said:


> 1983 was when the design concepts were begun to be considered. Kind of brain-storming began then.


I used to argue the same thing six years ago when i came to US, and the argument is still the same, Even with 1993 as the real start time, its been "20 years" It's too long of a time for an organisation like drdo to be still struggling....

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## Capt.Popeye

sandy_3126 said:


> I used to argue the same thing six years ago when i came to US, and the argument is still the same, Even with 1993 as the real start time, its been "20 years" It's too long of a time for an organisation like drdo to be still struggling....


 
LOL. Notwithstanding all the technological hurdles; sanctions etc, it was a case of how not to manage a project. First of all the endless "tugs-of-war" between agencies, then "Death by Comittees" that had to define requirements. Then the singularly inappropriate choice of person(s) to run the program. I even think that the "journos" that you are railing at, sat in the team tasked to run the whole show! Or atleast to set the designed performance parameters, esp for the engine.


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## MilSpec

Capt.Popeye said:


> LOL. Notwithstanding all the technological hurdles; sanctions etc, it was a case of how not to manage a project. First of all the endless "tugs-of-war" between agencies, then "Death by Comittees" that had to define requirements. Then the singularly inappropriate choice of person(s) to run the program. I even think that the "journos" that you are railing at, sat in the team tasked to run the whole show! Or atleast to set the designed performance parameters, esp for the engine.


Sanctions w.r.t to digi fbw I can understand, drdo guys being kicked out of Huntington beach, but what about the rest, the indigenous fbw protocol was developed by the end of 99, MMR was off the shelf, for last 10 years they have been messing around with the getting the python and derby and now they are gearing to get them operational. Even as a test bed they have to sit and decide for 3 months which a/c to select to test a certain parameter. This is the sad state of affairs. And now the nose cone issue just boils my blood, "Do it right the first time", how can you select the material without knowing the affect on the application, even run of the mill designers like me ask these questions, and the entire TRV group did not see this coming... Such actions leave very less wiggle room to argue for proponents of desi maal like me...

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## faithfulguy

Shadow_Hunter said:


> 1983-1993, only technologies for Tejas were being defined and infra was develop 1993 was when the actual development started. Infact ADA itself was formed in 1984 and ASR requirements were only finalized in 1985. So 1983 cannot called be the year when development for Tejas started.



So 1983 was the initial date when the plane was announced. Requirement procurement phase is also part of the plane development phase. So is infrastructure development. So LCA take 30 years to develop. The important thing though, is that the project is completed to the end.



KRAIT said:


> Medium weight stealth plane will be required as PAKFA modified to FGFA, according to Indian specifications, will be a heavy weight fighter.
> Tejas took 2 decades. Kindly read the article. The actual work started in 1993.



For medium weight plane. India can purchase the F-35. It should be faster to purchase that plane than to build one from scratch and India can induct F-35 faster. As of now, AMCA will be start until when LCA MKII is completed. Who knows how long will that take. So India should pursue the purchase of F-35. Its likely that India might not need F-35. But its good to keep that option open.


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## KRAIT

faithfulguy said:


> For medium weight plane. India can purchase the F-35. It should be faster to purchase that plane than to build one from scratch and India can induct F-35 faster. As of now, AMCA will be start until when LCA MKII is completed. Who knows how long will that take. So India should pursue the purchase of F-35. Its likely that India might not need F-35. But its good to keep that option open.


F-35 is totally out of question. India already rejected it. Medium weight stealth fighter under consideration in Russia might be what India would be looking at.


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## Basel

What surprise me about the article is that it says LCA's stealth and after that talk about that because it is made of composite material, he don't know that it is not even shaped to be stealth, it may be stealthy specially from front but use of composite material does not mean that they are used for stealth they also reduce weight while allowing similar or increased strength in structure.


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## Superboy

There are only two other planes in the class as Tejas. Namely, they are JF-17 and Gripen, both of which are operational with operational squadrons. Until Tejas gets its first operational squadron, it cannot be said to be operational in any sense of the word. JF-17 has DSI, a true 21st century technology. Tejas is yet to be equipped with DSI.


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## Speeder 2

errr...because it is the only one in its class?

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## Water Car Engineer




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## Guynextdoor2

GR!FF!N said:


> should we use this date for our counter argument of "So long development phase" type argument from the next time???cause,most of the time members use 1983 as the year when making of Tejas actually started.



Not just that, gets my blood boling when Indian media cries '2500 Crores spent! That's HALF A BILLION DOLLARS. Where in the world do you get an all composite 4.5 Gen fighter integrating AESA and whatnot at that amount?



Sergi said:


> We are not selling Sukhois. We might end up buying more.



The early SU 30s (not the MKIs) are being sold I beleieve. Though all MKIs will remain in service.



Superboy said:


> There are only two other planes in the class as Tejas. Namely, they are JF-17 and Gripen, both of which are operational with operational squadrons. Until Tejas gets its first operational squadron, it cannot be said to be operational in any sense of the word. JF-17 has DSI, a true 21st century technology. Tejas is yet to be equipped with DSI.



JF 17 is a plane from an era far gone. If all that we wanted to do with a plane made of aircraft aluminium, known limitations we would have rolled it out as fast as you guys did. We didn't have to spend time learning composite design, getting autoclave production lines and AESA radars etc. Build one with Aircraft Alumnium, put in known MMR and other tech and delcare it operational- piece of cake. Because of our current approach the future of Indian aviation is very differemt- all planes and helos are built of composites, good work on radar, contributed to our AEW, good work on mastering control laws and so on.

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## armchairPrivate

The LCA Tejas is the best in its class.
What class is that? A class of its own. Ir is no class.

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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> What surprise me about the article is that it says LCA's stealth and after that talk about that because it is made of composite material, he don't know that it is not even shaped to be stealth, it may be stealthy specially from front but use of composite material does not mean that they are used for stealth they also reduce weight while allowing similar or increased strength in structure.



Composites also reduce overall reflection. It is 'stealthier' because of this as more low observable than usual. And yes, LCA stealth charateristics were studied extensively. It's not deisgned to be like a 'humming bird' in the sky but is generally a lot lower than usual.



armchairPrivate said:


> The LCA Tejas is the best in its class.
> What class is that? A class of its own. Ir is no class.



You don't even have an aircraft industry.

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## Secur

Guynextdoor2 said:


> JF 17 is a plane from an era far gone. If all that we wanted to do with a plane made of aircraft aluminium, known limitations we would have rolled it out as fast as you guys did. We didn't have to spend time learning composite design, getting autoclave production lines and AESA radars etc. Build one with Aircraft Alumnium, put in known MMR and other tech and delcare it operational- piece of cake. Because of our current approach the future of Indian aviation is very differemt- all planes and helos are built of composites, good work on radar, contributed to our AEW, good work on mastering control laws and so on.



Really ? How did you reach that conclusion ? Start with a comparison proving the " era far gone " . What do you know about the JF-17 radar , DSI , FBW controls , EW suite , weapons , capabilities etc even ? Yes , its body is mostly made of Al , but still composites are used whose content are going to improve in future Blocks . Also Composites aren't something which are essential for any aircraft by any chance - weight/RCS reduction are the only benefit . It appears that you aren't even aware of the criteria for fourth generation aircraft .

P.S Do enlighten me , where the engine , radar etc of LCA Tejas are coming from today , if making an aircraft like JFT would have been a piece of cake as per you and somehow you opted for far better and difficult path but still ended up doing the same import and integrate approach ? Whats the percent of indigenous content in that aircraft ? Your contributions in that programme are higher , sure , but the essentials are still being imported , speaks volumes .

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## cirr

Another feel good article？

When will India stop congratulating itself and start facing the reality：India is a backward country，especially when it comes to defence industry，for it then has to compare itself with the world's best？

A tiny part of LCA is Indian。It is mostly American，Israelis，Russian、European etc。

Hey，one might even find some Japanese parts and components now that India and Japan are axis。


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## Guynextdoor2

Secur said:


> Really ? How did you reach that conclusion ? Start with a comparison proving the " era far gone " . What do you know about the JF-17 radar , DSI , FBW controls , EW suite , weapons , capabilities etc even ? Yes , its body is mostly made of Al , but still composites are used whose content are going to improve in future Blocks . Also Composites aren't something which are essential for any aircraft by any chance - weight/RCS reduction are the only benefit . It appears that you aren't even aware of the criteria for fourth generation aircraft .
> 
> P.S Do enlighten me , where the engine , radar etc of LCA Tejas are coming from today , if making an aircraft like JFT would have been a piece of cake as per you and somehow you opted for far better and difficult path but still ended up doing the same import and integrate approach ? Whats the percent of indigenous content in that aircraft ? Your contributions in that programme are higher , sure , but the essentials are still being imported , speaks volumes .



Admitedly the projects on engines, radars etc. are facing a few...ahem...delays. But that's natural in a complex project like LCA  . Make no mistakes EACH ONE will eventually be completed. You don't even have programs running for many of this. That's why the LCA is better as a program- it has temporarily decided to integrate but will continue capability building.

But your argument on composites being just 'weight and RCS reduction' are inadequate. Apart from the above, the maintainence needed significantly lesser for a composite frame. Not just from corrosion POV but no revits etc. need be maintained. And a big fallacy is that just because you have a few components/ structures made of composites you have somehow made a big difference. No- a hell of a lot of difference between having a few parts made and most of the plane actually built out of it.

You're talking about FBW controls etc.- those are the kinds of capabilities that LCA has given plentifully (having spent many years working on them especially after the sanctions). Don't tell me that just coz your engineers spend a bit of time helping their chinese counterparts it's given great capaility strengths to you. The chinese have had expertise in this area for long- they're just transferring it to JF 17 that's all. 



cirr said:


> Another feel good article？
> 
> When will India stop congratulating itself and start facing the reality：India is a backward country，especially when it comes to defence industry，for it then has to compare itself with the world's best？
> 
> A tiny part of LCA is Indian。It is mostly American，Israelis，Russian、European etc。
> 
> Hey，one might even find some Japanese parts and components now that India and Japan are axis。



When will you stop crashing our party?


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## WAR-rior

faithfulguy said:


> AMCA is in the shelves now. India might not make that plane if it already have PAKFA.
> 
> 
> 
> True. First place in the competition of one. And it take India over 30 years to build this plane.
> Don't expect MKII until 2020 at earliest.


So convinient rite? Do u even put ur braincells to understand why India took 2 decades, etc etc. 

India today has money to invest in ints research unlike before. So dont tell what India can and cant on basis of 2,3 decades back. Hell, even chinese dint make a shit before 2000. All their achievements started to roll in 21st century.

Also, AMCA is medium and FGFA and Su-50 are Heavy Combat Planes. 

WHY YOU ALWAYS COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES?

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## Secur

Superboy said:


> Until Tejas gets its first operational squadron, it cannot be said to be operational in any sense of the word. JF-17 has DSI, a true 21st century technology. Tejas is yet to be equipped with DSI.



Well , I do not think anybody has claimed the Tejas is operational , it still has a long way to go for that , considering that it has only been a week , when it obtained the Initial Operating Clearance the second , the aircraft will only get the Final Operational Clearance in 2015 . Diverterless Sonic Intake cant be equipped , its by design .



Guynextdoor2 said:


> Admitedly the projects on engines, radars etc. are facing a few...ahem...delays. But that's natural in a complex project like LCA  . Make no mistakes EACH ONE will eventually be completed. You don't even have programs running for many of this. That's why the LCA is better as a program- it has temporarily decided to integrate.
> 
> But your argument on composites being just 'weight and RCS reduction' are inadequate. Apart from the above, the maintainence needed significantly lesser for a composite frame. Not just from corrosion POV but no revits etc. need be maintained. And a big fallacy is that just because you have a few components/ structures made of composites you have somehow made a big difference. No- a hell of a lot of difference between having a few parts made and most of the plane actually built out of it.
> 
> You're talking about FBW controls etc.- those are the kinds of capabilities that LCA has given plentifully (having spent many years working on them especially after the sanctions). Don't tell me that just coz your engineers spend a bit of time helping their chinese counterparts it's given great capaility strengths to you. The chinese have had expertise in this area for long- they're just transferring it to JF 17 that's all.



I am still waiting for you to prove the " an aircraft from an era far gone " you said in your first post with an intent to troll , put up a comparison and enlighten us all , based on a childlish Al body argument . Lets see , when it happens . A lot of your things are facing delays and there's no end in sight . The complex project had enough time , money and resources spent and vested in , to sort out the complexities . You had an advantage there in terms of that , we didn't . There's no temporary integration if you understand the whole thing , these aircraft are going into production with the same components ( yes its freezed for now ) and even the LCA MK II per current reports , will use the same foreign engine and radar if DRDO fails to deliver on the promise again for AESA radar .

My simple argument was that composite body isn't an essential requirement for a fourth generation aircraft , yes it has its benefits but we chose a different approach . JF-17 will increase the percentage of composites gradually in Block-II - the first of which will be rolled out in June 2014 . Well , I can assure you that its not a hell of a difference you have made by just making airframe from 45% composites . The RCS reduction is compensated by the DSI in Thunder . The weight reduction is being worked upon , either by WS-13 engine and increasing the composite .

Every modern aircraft has it - the point being ? I asked you about the declared too easy approach , the JFT was faster in development because of its management not because it was cutting corners somehow . You may have chosen a different approach but in the end , a total and complete Transfer of Technology is being transferred to Pakistan , we will get the expertise in the field . All of it , except the engine of course , currently building about 58% ( complete avionics ) of the aircraft , slated to go to 75% by 2015 at PAC , Kamra . I am not denying that the Thunder isn't a indigenous project - at best its a joint development .

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## Water Car Engineer



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## faithfulguy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Not just that, gets my blood boling when Indian media cries '2500 Crores spent! That's HALF A BILLION DOLLARS. Where in the world do you get an all composite 4.5 Gen fighter integrating AESA and whatnot at that amount?
> 
> 
> 
> The early SU 30s (not the MKIs) are being sold I beleieve. Though all MKIs will remain in service.
> 
> 
> 
> JF 17 is a plane from an era far gone. If all that we wanted to do with a plane made of aircraft aluminium, known limitations we would have rolled it out as fast as you guys did. We didn't have to spend time learning composite design, getting autoclave production lines and AESA radars etc. Build one with Aircraft Alumnium, put in known MMR and other tech and delcare it operational- piece of cake. Because of our current approach the future of Indian aviation is very differemt- all planes and helos are built of composites, good work on radar, contributed to our AEW, good work on mastering control laws and so on.



Are you trying to fool people that LCA has AESA radar? Or are you so ignorant yourself.


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## Superboy

What's the point of digital quadruplex FBW and composite materials when Tejas is only capable of Mach 1.6 and 7g?


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## Sergi

Guynextdoor2 said:


> The early SU 30s (not the MKIs) are being sold I beleieve. Though all MKIs will remain in service.


Su-30MKK. They were stop gap measure and never mean to stay with IAF. Returned to the owner long long ago - Russia. Now they can do whatever they want.


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## Guynextdoor2

faithfulguy said:


> Are you trying to fool people that LCA has AESA radar? Or are you so ignorant yourself.



WILL HAVE maggot. Probably wouldn't have asked if you weren't illiterate

Livefist: EXCLUSIVE: India's LCA AESA Radar Programme Detailed

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## Superboy

Tejas is not operational till the first squadron is completed by 2016 or so. Currently, only JF-17 and Gripen share the small single engine class.

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## Guynextdoor2

Secur said:


> Well , I do not think anybody has claimed the Tejas is operational , it still has a long way to go for that , considering that it has only been a week , when it obtained the Initial Operating Clearance the second , the aircraft will only get the Final Operational Clearance in 2015 . Diverterless Sonic Intake cant be equipped , its by design .
> 
> 
> 
> I am still waiting for you to prove the " an aircraft from an era far gone " you said in your first post with an intent to troll , put up a comparison and enlighten us all , based on a childlish Al body argument . Lets see , when it happens . A lot of your things are facing delays and there's no end in sight . The complex project had enough time , money and resources spent and vested in , to sort out the complexities . You had an advantage there in terms of that , we didn't . There's no temporary integration if you understand the whole thing , these aircraft are going into production with the same components ( yes its freezed for now ) and even the LCA MK II per current reports , will use the same foreign engine and radar if DRDO fails to deliver on the promise again for AESA radar .
> 
> My simple argument was that composite body isn't an essential requirement for a fourth generation aircraft , yes it has its benefits but we chose a different approach . JF-17 will increase the percentage of composites gradually in Block-II - the first of which will be rolled out in June 2014 . Well , I can assure you that its not a hell of a difference you have made by just making airframe from 45% composites . The RCS reduction is compensated by the DSI in Thunder . The weight reduction is being worked upon , either by WS-13 engine and increasing the composite .
> 
> Every modern aircraft has it - the point being ? I asked you about the declared too easy approach , the JFT was faster in development because of its management not because it was cutting corners somehow . You may have chosen a different approach but in the end , a total and complete Transfer of Technology is being transferred to Pakistan , we will get the expertise in the field . All of it , except the engine of course , currently building about 58% ( complete avionics ) of the aircraft , slated to go to 75% by 2015 at PAC , Kamra . I am not denying that the Thunder isn't a indigenous project - at best its a joint development .



*Lets see , when it happens . A lot of your things are facing delays and there's no end in sight .*

It's gonna take us a decade to even achieve the no. of aircrafts we need to induct. More than enough time to wrap up most of these projects. Importantly, I think it's clear that India is maturing. Asking 'will they do it' is a stupid question. Question is when. 
All our projects, one way or another get finished. We don't have the habit of 'shelving' anything.



faithfulguy said:


> And do you expect India to have its indigenous AESA radar for LCA MKII?
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about??? Tejas existed since 1983, when it was first planned. Though Tejas was not even designed though, it was a better plane than F-16 back then.



Koi SHak maggot?


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## SrNair

Cohen1984 said:


> Tejas fighter is in itself a good start but i think India has a long way to go. However i wish the best to India for the future



This single small jet fighter program give us enough experience in aerospace industry.


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## HariPrasad

Superboy said:


> What's the point of digital quadruplex FBW and composite materials when Tejas is only capable of Mach 1.6 and 7g?




This is what it has achieved till date with limited flight envelope opened. It will betested for 10 G and certified for 8 to 9G. It has achieved AOA of 24* till IOC. Finally it will be certified for 28* unlike some so called 4th generation which can not exceed 17* AOA.



Guynextdoor2 said:


> Composites also reduce overall reflection. It is 'stealthier' because of this as more low observable than usual. And yes, LCA stealth charateristics were studied extensively. It's not deisgned to be like a 'humming bird' in the sky but is generally a lot lower than usual.




It uses Y duct where Turbine blade reflection is almost Zero. This is a big advantage so far as visibility is concern.

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## Guynextdoor2

HariPrasad said:


> This is what it has achieved till date with limited flight envelope opened. It will betested for 10 G and certified for 8 to 9G. It has achieved AOA of 24* till IOC. Finally it will be certified for 28* unlike some so called 4th generation which can not exceed 17* AOA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It uses Y duct where Turbine blade reflection is almost Zero. This is a big advantage so far as visibility is concern.



Since it doesn't have internal weapons bay it'll still be quite visible when flying with weapons.



WAR-rior said:


> So convinient rite? Do u even put ur braincells to understand why India took 2 decades, etc etc.
> 
> India today has money to invest in ints research unlike before. So dont tell what India can and cant on basis of 2,3 decades back. Hell, even chinese dint make a shit before 2000. All their achievements started to roll in 21st century.
> 
> Also, AMCA is medium and FGFA and Su-50 are Heavy Combat Planes.
> 
> WHY YOU ALWAYS COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES?



That's a satandard troll approach. They'll compare AMCA and FGFA withotu knowing about medium and heavy fighters.


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## HariPrasad

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Since it doesn't have internal weapons bay it'll still be quite visible when flying with weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a satandard troll approach. They'll compare AMCA and FGFA withotu knowing about medium and heavy fighters.




Weapons shall certainly increase RCS but still it will remain one of the very low RCS plane.


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## WAR-rior

Someone tell me, For Heavy, 2 engines are a must in todays date and for Light, 1 engine.

For Medium Combat, what are the comparative figures that decide whether 2 or 1 engine will be sufficient. I mean, What power engine for what weight of the plane etc etc.


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## Manticore

sandy_3126 said:


> ev


Nose cone issue ? reports/links/rumours?


----------



## Dash

WAR-rior said:


> Someone tell me, For Heavy, 2 engines are a must in todays date and for Light, 1 engine.
> 
> For Medium Combat, what are the comparative figures that decide whether 2 or 1 engine will be sufficient. I mean, What power engine for what weight of the plane etc etc.



Will this give you a fair Idea?

TWR or T/W ratio = (Max Thrust of Engine / (Empty Weight + (3.505 Tonnes of Fuel & Weapons, or only Internal Fuel)))
1.30 – Su-35S
1.29 – F-15K
1.26 – Su-27S
1.25 – Eurofighter
1.24 – Mig-35 (T/W = 1.45 during Emergency Thrust*)
1.23 – Su-27SK & J-11A
1.19 – Mig-29M/M2 (T/W = 1.39 during Emergency Thrust*)
1.19 – F-15C
1.18 – F-22A (T/W = 1.37 with Round nozzles?)
1.16 – Su-30MKK
1.16 – Rafale C
1.16 – F-35A
1.15 – Mig-29B (9-12)
1.14 – Su-30MKI
1.13 – Mig-29 (9-13), S, SD, SE & SM
1.11 – F/A-18E (F/A-18F: 1.09)
1.10 – Rafale M
1.10 – Mig-29 BM & SMT (T/W = 1.15 during Emergency Thrust*)
1.09 – F-16E Block 60
1.09 – Mig-29K (T/W = 1.28 during Emergency Thrust*)
1.09 – F-18C
1.09 – J-8III(or J-8C)
1.08 – F-35B
1.08 – F-14 B & D
1.06 – F-16C Block 52 (Block 50: T/W = 1.055)
1.05 – J-8IIm
1.04 – AV-8B+ Harrier II
1.03 – F-2A (F-2B: 1.02)
1.03 – JH-7
1.02 – F-16A Block 10
1.01 – F-35C
1.01 – J-8II & J-8IIb & J-8IId
1.00 – J-10A
1.00 – Harrier GR7A
0.99 – Su-34 & Su-32FN & Su-27IB
0.99 – Sea Harrier FA2 & FRS51
0.99 – F-16A Block 20
0.97 – Su-15T
0.95 – MiG-23 P, ML, MLA & MLD
0.94 – Gripen NG
0.94 – F-4E
0.94 – J-8
0.93 – Mirage 2000-5
0.93 – Su-15TM
0.93 – F-101B
0.92 – Harrier GR7
0.92 – E E Lightning F6
0.91 – F-16C Block 25
0.91 – Yak-28 I & P
0.91 – F-111F
0.91 – Su-24
0.90 – Su-15
0.88 – Mirage-2000 C & H
0.87 – F-14A
0.87 – Mig-23 MF & MS
0.87 – Su-24 M, MK & M2
0.86 – F-CK-1
0.86 – LCA (T/W = 0.91 during Emergency Thrust****)
0.86 – Su-9
0.84 – Su-11
0.84 – Su-17M
0.83 – Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
0.83 – Tornado GR1
0.83 – Su-20
0.82 – JF-17 (T/W = 0.86 during Emergency Thrust*)
0.82 – Su-22
0.81 – Gripen A
0.81 – Su-7B
0.81 – F-20
0.80 – Gripen C
0.80 – Mig-27K
0.80 – Su-7BM
0.79 – Mig-21 Bis (T/W = 1.11 in Emergency Thrust mode**)
0.79 – JA-37 Viggen
0.79 – Mig-27
0.79 – Su-17M2
0.78 – Mig-23BN
0.78 – Su-7 BKL & BMK
0.78 – Javelin FAW MK9
0.77 – Mig-23S
0.77 – J-7IIIa
0.76 – Mig-27 D & ML
0.76 – Mig-23M(E)
0.76 – F-106A
0.76 – F-7MG & F-7BG & F-7PG & J-7E & J-7G (WP-7N: T/W = 0.69)
0.76 – Q-5D
0.75 – Kfir C.7
0.75 – Kfir C.2
0.75 – AJ-37 Viggen
0.75 – J-7III
0.74 – Mig-21SM
0.73 – Su-17
0.73 – Mig-21MF
0.73 – Su-17M3
0.73 – Mig-19S*** (MTOW T/W = 0.86)
0.72 – Yak-27K
0.72 – Su-17M4
0.72 – F-104G
0.71 – Mig-19P*** (MTOW T/W = 0.84)
0.71 – Mig-21PF
0.71 – Supermarine Scimitar F.1
0.71 – Cheetah C
0.70 – Mig-21M
0.70 – Su-25SM
0.69 – Jaguar GR1
0.69 – J-35F Draken
0.69 – Mig-21F
0.69 – Mig-21 F-13
0.69 – J-7II
0.69 – Su-25 or Su-25T
0.68 – F-105F/G
0.68 – Mirage 50
0.68 – F-7M(or F-7MP or F-7MB) & F-7P
0.67 – F-1
0.67 – F4D-1/F-6 Skyray
0.66 – Mirage F-1
0.66 – F-8P
0.64 – F-102A
0.63 – Sea Vixen FAW.2
0.63 – Su-25TM or Su-39
0.62 – Yak-27
0.61 – Yak-38M (TWR during STOVL/VTOL takeoff: 1.20)
0.61 – Mirage-5A
0.61 – J-32B Lansen
0.60 – A-4S1
0.59 – Mirage-III E & D
0.58 – Yak-38 (T/W during STOVL/VTOL takeoff: 1.16)
0.58 – IAI Nesher
0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II
0.56 – F-100D
0.56 – A-6E
0.55 – A-7E
0.51 – Super Étendard
0.50 – F3H-2 Demon
0.49 – A-10A
0.49 – F-11A
0.49 – AMX
0.47 – Étendard-IV M
0.46 – F-89D
0.46 – Super Mystère B.2
0.46 – Hunter F 6
0.45 – Marut Mk.1
0.43 – Yak-25
0.43 – F-94C/F-97A
0.43 – F9F-8/F-9J Cougar
0.41 – A-37B
0.37 – Mystère IVA
0.37 – FJ-4 Fury
0.36 – F7U-3M
0.34 – F-84F
0.33 – J-29F Tunnan
0.33 – P-80C
0.32 – Supermarine Attacker F.1
0.31 – F2H-3 Banshee
0.30 – Ouragan M.D.450B
0.30 – F3D-2 Sky Night
0.29 – Venom FB.1
0.29 – F-84G
Pure Interceptors
1.30 – Mig-31M
1.30 – Mig-31BM
1.28 – Mig-31B
1.27 – Mig-31FE
1.27 – Mig-31E
1.22 – Mig-31
1.21 – Mig-25M
1.00 – Mig-25 P & PD
0.93 – Mig-25BM
0.74 – Tu-128

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## sudhir007

PICTURES: India’s Tejas receives initial operational clearance

The Mk 1 variant of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas light combat aircraft has received its initial operational clearance (IOC) from the Indian air force.

The "release to service" document was handed over to Indian air force chief N A K Browne by Defence Minister A K Antony in Bengaluru, on 20 December. The grant of the final IOC for the MK 1 variant paves the way for induction of the Tejas into operational service with the Indian air force. This is conditional on the Tejas obtaining its final operational clearance (FOC) by December next year.


The Indian air force, however, expects that only the Tejas Mk2 will meet the requirements envisioned in the air staff requirements set in 1985.

“The two primary design drivers already identified by us are the critical GE F-414 engine integration for enhanced thrust, along with perhaps a better intake design and improved maintainability of the platform,” says Browne.







*All images Indian defence ministry*

The Tejas Mk2 will also have improved helmet mounted interface functionality, a more efficient avionics system architecture, newer weapons, an upgraded electronic warfare suite and a retractable refuelling probe. The preliminary design review for the Mk2 is due to be completed in February next year and the first GE F-414 engines are to arrive in India by 2015.

A less-than-enthused air force accepted the Tejas in 2011, making certain concessions for what was termed as IOC-1. At the time, improvements were demanded by the service concerning combat performance, turnaround time and weapons fit, along with completion of wake penetration trials and all-weather clearance.

These have since been accomplished and with the granting of the IOC, Tejas Mk1 can attain angles of attack (AoA) of up to 22°. It features a revamped avionics and weapons system, with a fully integrated helmet mounted display sight (HMDS). An R-73E missile firing was also successfully demonstrated using the HMDS. The Tejas Mk1 can now fly without any telemetry support and a claimed radius of action up to 500km (310 miles) with a ferry range of 1,750 km (using 800/1,200 litre drop tanks).






The Indian air force will have its first Tejas Mk1 squadron based at Sulur, in Tamil Nadu, which is close to Bengaluru, where the aircraft is manufactured. The service has thus far committed to two squadrons (40 aircraft) of the Mk1.

HAL will build the first 20 to IOC standard (to be upgraded later to FOC standard) and the last batch will be to FOC standard. HAL is to deliver the first series production Tejas Mk1 (SP1) by March 2014. Production is planned at eight aircraft a year, to be increased to 16 a year, some years from now. The Indian air force has planned for four squadrons (80 aircraft) of the Mk2 variant, although no orders have been placed so far.

According to the Aeronautical Development Agency, a substantial amount of work for the FOC has already been completed. The major tasks involved are expansion of the flight envelope to 24° AoA, installation and demonstration of the in-flight refuelling system, addition of the Israeli Rafael Python and Derby air-to-air missiles, along with integration and trials of the 23mm (0.9in) cannon.






Despite a number of technical problems, the Tejas flight test programme has demonstrated an excellent safety record. More than 2,450 sorties across 11 aircraft have been flown since 2011, with 490 flights being flown this year alone, from air force bases at Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwalior, Goa, Leh and Pathankot.

The Tejas is a light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic multi-role fighter and features a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system that was developed indigenously. The type is also being developed for the Indian navy for its carrier borne fighter requirements. The Tejas is only the second fighter aircraft to be developed by India, since the HAL Marut, which first flew in 1961.

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## Guynextdoor2

HariPrasad said:


> Weapons shall certainly increase RCS but still it will remain one of the very low RCS plane.



That I agree, the jet will have low RCS for sure


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## rockstarIN

*According to the Aeronautical Development Agency, a substantial amount of work for the FOC has already been completed.* The major tasks involved are expansion of the flight envelope to 24° AoA, installation and demonstration of the in-flight refuelling system, addition of the Israeli Rafael Python and Derby air-to-air missiles, along with integration and trials of the 23mm (0.9in) cannon.


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## Guynextdoor2

WAR-rior said:


> Someone tell me, For Heavy, 2 engines are a must in todays date and for Light, 1 engine.
> 
> For Medium Combat, what are the comparative figures that decide whether 2 or 1 engine will be sufficient. I mean, What power engine for what weight of the plane etc etc.



Twin engines are actually a norm for an additional reason- if one engine flames out/shuts down, the plane can land on the other. In general sense most medium class aircraft and upwards have had twin engines because of this. I think as far as western jets are considered, the first time a twin engine was rejected in favor of a single one was with the F 16 (a single engine which defeated the twin engine cobra that later evolved into F18) . Here the prior history with the engine meant that the USAF was convinced with it's reliability and so were ok with doing away with the twin engine config. A reliable single engine is simpler, easier to maintain and significanly cheaper.

I believe one of the advantages of the EFT if India had decided to go for it was that EFT engine could be added to LCA without major modifications (maybe mid life refit onwards?) and that two of those could power AMCA.



HariPrasad said:


> This is what it has achieved till date with limited flight envelope opened. It will betested for 10 G and certified for 8 to 9G. It has achieved AOA of 24* till IOC. Finally it will be certified for 28* unlike some so called 4th generation which can not exceed 17* AOA.
> 
> It uses Y duct where Turbine blade reflection is almost Zero. This is a big advantage so far as visibility is concern.



You mean JFT can't cross 17* AOA? Seriously? I haven't been paying attention with all the modi bashing going on


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## CorporateAffairs

@Experts.

Can India now develop something near to B52 bombers?

can we in near future?


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## IND151

Tejas MK-2 and Beyond | idrw.org


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## Glorino

Advantage India-it is a very good aircraft in its class-with composites incorporated.Long gestation period expected as it is India's first 4th Generation+ aircraft.Hard work and learning process includes the whole ecosystem will lead to better and better aircraft in the years ahead.With Indian leadership in producing smaller and deadly missiles-this can be incorporated into LCA Tejas.EXCITING FUTURE AHEAD FOR LCA TEJAS

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## Basel

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Composites also reduce overall reflection. It is 'stealthier' because of this as more low observable than usual. And yes, LCA stealth charateristics were studied extensively. It's not deisgned to be like a 'humming bird' in the sky but is generally a lot lower than usual.



Their is a difference between stealthy and stealth and LCA may have stealthy features but it is not stealth means it is visible to radars, which means that it will be locked and even engaged in future air battles. Future belongs to 5th gen stealth planes and all other planes will find it very difficult to survive untill they are fully integrated in a net centric environment. LCA seems good on specs but it has taken too much time to arrive and world of tech is changing very fast, if evolved as per lines of Silent Hornet it may have some future even in full 5th gen environment.


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## Superboy

Seeing as how it took 3 years to add DSI to JF-17, it would take at least several years to increase Tejas angle of attack from 24 to 28. It is a major redesign.

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## kbd-raaf

Superboy said:


> Seeing as how it took 3 years to add DSI to JF-17, it would take at least several years to increase Tejas angle of attack from 24 to 28. It is a major redesign.



The airframe is capable of much higher than 28* AoA  It's just a matter of opening up the envelop.

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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> Their is a difference between stealthy and stealth and LCA may have stealthy features but it is not stealth means it is visible to radars, which means that it will be locked and even engaged in future air battles. Future belongs to 5th gen stealth planes and all other planes will find it very difficult to survive untill they are fully integrated in a net centric environment. LCA seems good on specs but it has taken too much time to arrive and world of tech is changing very fast, if evolved as per lines of Silent Hornet it may have some future even in full 5th gen environment.


 
Well it's a point defence fighter so it's not all aspect stealth design. It will get detected with good radars for sure. Where it can be effective is in being detected closer than otherwise and being a bit more difficult to be detected.


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## gslv mk3

Superboy said:


> Seeing as how it took 3 years to add DSI to JF-17, it would take at least several years to increase Tejas angle of attack from 24 to 28. It is a major redesign.



Who told a DSI would be required?? Fanboy??


----------



## Basel

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Well it's a point defence fighter so it's not all aspect stealth design. It will get detected with good radars for sure. Where it can be effective is in being detected closer than otherwise and being a bit more difficult to be detected.



LCA will be good point defense as India have vast and layered air defense network which any air force will find very difficult to over come with out 5th gen planes, but if it is to enter Pakistani air space then there are more chances that it will be shot down by ground based SAMs because Pakistani ground radar will be watching deep inside India even if AWACS is not deployed only Rafael & MKI are good to handle our current air defense, and that is the reason Rafael will be used primarily for ground attacks and MKIs will be used primarily for air dominance and secondary strike package escort.


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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> LCA will be good point defense as India have vast and layered air defense network which any air force will find very difficult to over come with out 5th gen planes, but if it is to enter Pakistani air space then there are more chances that it will be shot down by ground based SAMs because Pakistani ground radar will be watching deep inside India even if AWACS is not deployed only Rafael & MKI are good to handle our current air defense, and that is the reason Rafael will be used primarily for ground attacks and MKIs will be used primarily for air dominance and secondary strike package escort.



Enlighten me about Long Range radars aswell as SAMs used by Pakistan.

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## AMCA

Basel said:


> LCA will be good point defense as India have vast and layered air defense network which any air force will find very difficult to over come with out 5th gen planes, but if it is to enter Pakistani air space then there are more chances that it will be shot down by ground based SAMs because Pakistani ground radar will be watching deep inside India even if AWACS is not deployed only Rafael & MKI are good to handle our current air defense, and that is the reason Rafael will be used primarily for ground attacks and MKIs will be used primarily for air dominance and secondary strike package escort.



I do not think an Aircraft Like Tejas whose RCS would atleast be 3 times smaller than that of Mirage 2000 be an easy target for Ground Radars,SAMS and Enemy Aircrafts. I wouldnt say Tejas is invincible but it would not be an obvious target aswell..

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## Superboy

J-10B is in serial production, whereas Tejas still is not. What makes you sure Tejas can enter serial production when J-20 enters serial production in 2015? What radar does Tejas have?


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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> LCA will be good point defense as India have vast and layered air defense network which any air force will find very difficult to over come with out 5th gen planes, but if it is to enter Pakistani air space then there are more chances that it will be shot down by ground based SAMs because Pakistani ground radar will be watching deep inside India even if AWACS is not deployed only Rafael & MKI are good to handle our current air defense, and that is the reason Rafael will be used primarily for ground attacks and MKIs will be used primarily for air dominance and secondary strike package escort.


 
Point defence fighters will rarely enter Pak territory. LCA Vs Su 30 range compaisons are enough to understand that LCA will not carry out deep penetration and strke roles anyway. LCA will be guarding our cities and facilities and there the PAF will have to depend on the on-board Radars (necessarily limited in comparison with ground based ones). It can be assumed that in these conditions LCA will have a terrific edge: Low observablitiy to radar because of composites and stealthy design, very small size- visually difficult to detect so engaging in visual range combat will be nightmarish.
Most Pak strikes will be done by MKI/ Rafale etc.


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## Basel

off topic but need info can i post link of other forum here??


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## rockstarIN

Superboy said:


> Seeing as how it took 3 years to add DSI to JF-17, it would take at least several years to increase Tejas angle of attack from 24 to 28. It is a major redesign.



Its just the matter of opening the envelop. IOC-1 approved 17. They made it from 17to 22 in IOC -2.


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## Basel

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Point defence fighters will rarely enter Pak territory. LCA Vs Su 30 range compaisons are enough to understand that LCA will not carry out deep penetration and strke roles anyway. LCA will be guarding our cities and facilities and there the PAF will have to depend on the on-board Radars (necessarily limited in comparison with ground based ones). It can be assumed that in these conditions LCA will have a terrific edge: Low observablitiy to radar because of composites and stealthy design, very small size- visually difficult to detect so engaging in visual range combat will be nightmarish.
> Most Pak strikes will be done by MKI/ Rafale etc.



Some thing like that I was trying to say, and as for known information Pakistan's TPS-77 might be its longest range radar for public, but its quite good Pakistan never disclose Chinese radars until it is necessary to display.


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## AMCA

Superboy said:


> J-10B is in serial production, whereas Tejas still is not. What makes you sure Tejas can enter serial production when J-20 enters serial production in 2015? What radar does Tejas have?



Tejas Now is in Serial Production while we talk. Tejas MK-1 uses a pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar while an AESA is being readied for MK-2 version of the same, which is set to roll out in 2015.


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## Burhan Wani

similar to our thunder but avionics and munuever capability is week


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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> Some thing like that I was trying to say, and as for known information Pakistan's TPS-77 might be its longest range radar for public, but its quite good Pakistan never disclose Chinese radars until it is necessary to display.


 
Well, let's wait for the info. Only then we'll be able to compare.


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## AMCA

rockstarIN said:


> Its just the matter of opening the envelop. IOC-1 approved 17. They made it from 17to 22 in IOC -2.



_Tejas_ has already been tested to _24 degrees_. It will be increased to 28 Degree as a requirement for FOC.



engineer saad said:


> similar to our thunder but avionics and munuever capability is week



Can you enlighten us as to which Avionics are you boasting in Thunder which LCA does not have and as far as Maneuverability is concerned the Tejas is a League ahead of its competitor.


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## Basel

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Well, let's wait for the info. Only then we'll be able to compare.



Pakistani radars used by CAA also offer good coverage and they can be used for surveillance too.


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## Superboy

Tejas can't even best Gripen let alone JF-17. Don't forget, JF-17 is the world's first operational plane equipped with DSI.


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## Basel

These are some links for known radars & their related defense equipment.

YLC-6 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Oerlikon 35 mm twin cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
GIRAFFE AMB - Features

A link which compares radars of India & Pakistan.

Exclusive: A comparative analysis of military radar technology in Pakistan and India | Terminal X
.
Pakistani Sam's & Radar Systems - Air Force Forum - Pakistani Defence Forum
.
TRISHUL: China-Made Radars Being Delivered To Pakistan
I don't know PDFs policy about posting other forums as link, sorry if this is a mistake.


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## AMCA

Superboy said:


> Tejas can't even best Gripen let alone JF-17. Don't forget, JF-17 is the world's first operational plane equipped with DSI.



Tejas has already.. And Mind You dear. DSI is not everything, even F-22 is not equipped with DSI and that is still considered the best. DSI is just a cost effective solution to other conventional methods.

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## Superboy

F-22 doesn't have DSI because it's a 1997 plane. F-35 does and it's a 2006 plane. 

Aesthetics is a big part of selling. Cleanness sells. Ugly struts holding air intake to fuselage doesn't.


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## AMCA

Superboy said:


> F-22 doesn't have DSI because it's a 1997 plane. F-35 does and it's a 2006 plane.



Yet it does not out perform a 1997 Aircraft, so whats the logic of equipping your Super Duper DSI apart from cost effectiveness?


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## PoKeMon

Secur said:


> I am not denying that the Thunder isn't a indigenous project - *at best its a joint development* .



At best - its a joint production. Nothing has been developed in JF17 program which was not with chinese before.

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## Jayanta

Basel said:


> LCA will be good point defense as India have vast and layered air defense network which any air force will find very difficult to over come with out 5th gen planes, but if it is to enter Pakistani air space then there are more chances that it will be shot down by ground based SAMs because Pakistani ground radar will be watching deep inside India even if AWACS is not deployed only Rafael & MKI are good to handle our current air defense, and that is the reason Rafael will be used primarily for ground attacks and MKIs will be used primarily for air dominance and secondary strike package escort.



English is a funny language...an "e" here and there can change the meaning of the word...

Rafael is a Israeli company which makes missiles like Barak, Iron dome etc.
http://www.rafael.co.il

Rafale on the other hand is a multirole fighter aircraft manufactured by the French aviation company Dassault.
Introduction - Dassault Aviation



Superboy said:


> J-10B is in serial production, whereas Tejas still is not. What makes you sure Tejas can enter serial production when J-20 enters serial production in 2015? What radar does Tejas have?



Fan boy hold your horse...as far as the Chinese are concerned they plan to induct the J-20 somewhere in 2019-20. Are they going to get some in the serial production specially for Pakistan in 2015??

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## sancho

Basel said:


> What surprise me about the article is that it says LCA's stealth and after that talk about that because it is made of composite material, he don't know that it is not even shaped to be stealth



That's because too many people confuse low RCS with Stealth and especially DRDO often fuelled this misconception by talking about 5th gen, or stealth upgrades, just like the notion that LCA is the best of it's class is nonsense.
However, it is not deniable that the LCA was developed and designed with the aim to have a very low RCS for a 4th gen fighter. That's why it was designed to be very small, to have as less surface structures that could reflect radar waves, or why it uses high ammounts of composite and radar absorbing materials from the start and not only added in later upgrade stages.

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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Really ? How did you reach that conclusion ? Start with a comparison proving the " era far gone " . What do you know about the JF-17 radar , DSI , FBW controls , EW suite , weapons , capabilities etc even ? Yes , its body is mostly made of Al , but still composites are used whose content are going to improve in future Blocks . Also Composites aren't something which are essential for any aircraft by any chance - weight/RCS reduction are the only benefit . It appears that you aren't even aware of the criteria for fourth generation aircraft .
> 
> P.S Do enlighten me , where the engine , radar etc of LCA Tejas are coming from today , if making an aircraft like JFT would have been a piece of cake as per you and somehow you opted for far better and difficult path but still ended up doing the same import and integrate approach ? Whats the percent of indigenous content in that aircraft ? Your contributions in that programme are higher , sure , but the essentials are still being imported , speaks volumes .



Hello Secur,

OT questions, 
Can you tell me where is the JF17, Wing internal stamping panels, external skin panels, fuselage stamping, external skin, cockpit structure, tail piece stampings, external skins and canopies are being produced?


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## sancho

Secur said:


> The RCS reduction is compensated by the DSI in Thunder



That's wrong, DSI is a feature to improve the airflow to the engine and therefor to improve the engine performance. It is just a common misconception that it would hide the engine from radar waves and has something to do with RCS reduction, but it hasn't. JF17 has a Y-duct to do so, but that or the limited use of composites in Block 2 can't compensate the lack of RAM or coatings, which is the key feature to achive a lower RCS for any 4th gen fighter, be it for a newly developed, or an upgraded like the F16s, or Mig 29s.
That's where LCA has an advantage, since it was developed with a low RCS as a major aim and no matter what went wrong during the development, this field actually was pretty successful. The knowledge ADA, NAL, HAL and co. gathered wrt to designs, materials and coatings will be highly valuable for any future aircraft projects!

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## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> Hello Secur,
> 
> OT questions,
> Can you tell me where is the JF17, Wing internal stamping panels, external skin panels, fuselage stamping, external skin, cockpit structure, tail piece stampings, external skins and canopies are being produced?



What is known to us , is that fifty-eight percent of JF-17 today is being produced at Kamra . The figure will rise to seventy-five percent by 2015 as per the reports . Now , knowing the Pakistanis , they never release that much info but what we assume that most of them are coming in knockdown kits from China .


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## Superboy

Composites are a nightmare to service. Boeing 787 is a case in point. Aluminum is rugged and reliable. JF-17 is all that.



Jayanta said:


> Fan boy hold your horse...as far as the Chinese are concerned they plan to induct the J-20 somewhere in 2019-20. Are they going to get some in the serial production specially for Pakistan in 2015??



J-20 serial production by 2015, IOC by 2017 when the first operational squadron is completed.


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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> What is known to us , is that fifty-eight percent of JF-17 today is being produced at Kamra . The figure will rise to seventy-five percent by 2015 as per the reports . Now , knowing the Pakistanis , they never release that much info but what we assume that most of them are coming in knockdown kits from China .


correction : Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds the exclusive rights of 58% of JF-17 airframe co-production work. not avionics, weapons etc

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## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> correction : Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds the exclusive rights of 58% of JF-17 airframe co-production work. not avionics, weapons etc



We also know that complete avionics are being produced at Kamra . If that were the case , they wouldn't have been talking about increasing the airframe co-production work to seventy-five % by 2015 .


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## Superboy

Tejas empty weight 14,300 pounds. HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JF-17 empty weight 14,520 pounds. CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F-35A empty weight 29,300 pounds. Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted, Tejas is lighter than JF-17 by a bit, but it's also quite a bit smaller.
JF-17's DSI bumps really hide the engine well. The bumps are huge.


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## karan21

Secur said:


> What is known to us , is that fifty-eight percent of JF-17 today is being produced at Kamra . The figure will rise to seventy-five percent by 2015 as per the reports . Now , knowing the Pakistanis , they never release that much info but what we assume that most of them are coming in knockdown kits from China .


Thinking that 58% of the parts of the plane are being produced at one plant is completely irrational and illogical. I do don't think anything is being produced in Pakistan for this plane.


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## gslv mk3

AMCA said:


> 's first operational plane equipped with DSI.
> Tejas has already.. And Mind You dear. DSI is not everything, even F-22 is not equipped with DSI and that is still considered the best. DSI is just a cost effective solution to other





Superboy said:


> F-22 doesn't have DSI because it's a 1997 plane. F-35 does and it's a 2006 plane.
> 
> Aesthetics is a big part of selling. Cleanness sells. Ugly struts holding air intake to fuselage doesn't.



Aesthetics?Struts?Eh Fanboy??


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## HariPrasad

Superboy said:


> J-10B is in serial production, whereas Tejas still is not. What makes you sure Tejas can enter serial production when J-20 enters serial production in 2015? What radar does Tejas have?




recently there was an article of Chine media that J 20 has lots of design flows.

1) Design flow in weapon bay and fuselage
2) Faulty wing design
3) faulty design and lay out of engine
4) Non availability of Russian high thrust engine etc. 

So J 20 is many years away than one would think.


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## Glorino

*Tejas, a game changer for Indian Air Force*

Hyderabad, Dec. 27:
The induction of the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas into the Indian Air Force will be a ‘game changer’ for the country’s air defence preparedness, says Avinash Chander, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.
“Though delayed, the India developed fighter aircraft has emerged as a ‘contemporary aircraft’, as good or in a way better than the competitors in its class,” Avinash Chander told _Business Line_.
The LCA signals the country’s indigenous capability to develop a major air-based weapon platform and a step towards achieving self-reliance in aircraft design, fabrication and manufacture. It has laid a sound base for a smooth take off in the efforts to develop more advanced fighter aircraft in the future, Avinash Chander, Chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said.
The fighter aircraft, which obtained the Initial Operation Clearance on December 20, is a step away from induction into the IAF to replace the ageing MiG-21 aircraft. The immediate plan was to induct six squadrons of the IAF with the Tejas. This means about 120 aircraft. Already, the IAF has placed orders for two squadrons. Similarly, the Indian Navy will have atleast 40 of the naval version of the fighter aircraft.
In the next 10 years, atleast 200 LCA numbers are expected to bolster the country’s air strike power. The HAL, which will manufacture these aircraft, will provide 16 a year. It has built capacity and will further ramp up production facilities.
The DRDO Chief saw a Rs 1 lakh - crore opportunity in the next decade in the defence aircraft industry for the country.
The gradual induction of the LCA will ensure a forex saving to the tune of Rs 50,000 crore. In addition, the savings on life cycle and maintenance costs will be close to that figure in the long run, he explained.
There is tremendous scope for small and medium enterprises to make components and sub-systems and supply to HAL. It will also lead to creation of expertise and industrial infrastructure in the country.
_somasekhar.m@thehindu.co.in _


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## HariPrasad

rockstarIN said:


> Its just the matter of opening the envelop. IOC-1 approved 17. They made it from 17to 22 in IOC -2.




FOr IOC 2 it was 22* but they flew it to 24*. They target 28* in FOC the highest piratically useful limit.It will go beyond that also.


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## HariPrasad

Hi Guys,

I show 2 awesome video of Tejas yesterday. In One video, tejas takes off fly some distance parallel to runway take sudden steep climb of almost vertical to some distance and takes 360*turns. In an another video, It climbs vertically, takes U turn, starts falling down and than take other horizontal turn within 9 seconds. These are some maneuvers which we used to see some very famous planes only. I was impressed to see Tejas doing that.


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## gslv mk3

HariPrasad said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I show 2 awesome video of Tejas yesterday. In One video, tejas takes off fly some distance parallel to runway take sudden steep climb of almost vertical climbs some distance and takes 360*turns. In an another video, It climbs vertically, takes U turn, starts falling down and than take other horizontal within 9 seconds. These are some maneuvers which we used to see some very famous planes only. I was impressed to see Tejas doing that.



please share the link


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## HariPrasad

gslv mk3 said:


> please share the link




OK 

It is on page No 145 of ADA Tejas IV on Indian defense analysis. I will do that within 2 days.

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## SR-91

HariPrasad said:


> FOr IOC 2 it was 22* but they flew it to 24*. They target 28* in FOC the highest piratically useful limit.It will go beyond that also.



Hari,

Can u compare this to other fighters? Thx


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## Secur

karan21 said:


> Thinking that 58% of the parts of the plane are being produced at one plant is completely irrational and illogical. I do don't think anything is being produced in Pakistan for this plane.


I am sure the Project Managers and PAC aren't lying - these are official reports , kiddo  Your opinion doesn't matter then , at all specially knowing that you usually troll around in threads .


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## gslv mk3

Secur said:


> I am sure the Project Managers and PAC aren't lying - these are official reports , kiddo  Your opinion doesn't matter then , at all specially knowing that you usually troll around in threads .



58% by number of parts or value??


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## HariPrasad

I read some scientist saying that 28* AOA is the useful exploitable limit for any fighter. LCA can increase AOA beyond 28* or upto 35* or even more with rudder control. TVC aircraft like Su 30 can have much batter AOA with TVC but pushing plane to such high AOA will bleed kinetic energy and not very useful. Chinese Planes have very poor AOA. SAAB gripen has it 28* and rafale has 26*. Russian planes have very high AOA and hence very maneuverable.

28* AOA will give Tejas a freedom to operate in some extreme condition and care free maneuvering.


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## Secur

gslv mk3 said:


> 58% by number of parts or value??



Parts of course - 58 % , avionics - 70 % . Anyways , discuss the topic , this info is easily accessible in the information pool .


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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> OK
> 
> It is on page No 145 of ADA Tejas IV on Indian defense analysis. I will do that within 2 days.



Cannot find any such video on the said page .


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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> Cannot find any such video on the said page .




Pl check page no 142,143 and 144 also. It is very much there. I may have missed page no. If you find than post it here.


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## AMCA

gslv mk3 said:


> please share the link



Please watch the video from 1:43 - 2:03 where it shows the steep vertical climb of Tejas with full battle load. This maneuverability is something new and never seen before.

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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> Pl check page no 142,143 and 144 also. It is very much there. I may have missed page no. If you find than post it here.



Got it . @gslv mk3 .

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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> Got it . @gslv mk3 .




Thanks man.

Let us discuss the the capability visible in these videos.

Steep climbing visible in Video is a clear indication of very high thrust to weight ratio. It points towards so many other potencies of plane also.

I have seen LCA virtually doing everything except horizantal turn in standard 20 Second time. It is bit slow. I read some where that STR issue is resolved. I am waiting for that Video.


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## Secur

sancho said:


> That's wrong, DSI is a feature to improve the airflow to the engine and therefor to improve the engine performance. It is just a common misconception that it would hide the engine from radar waves and has something to do with RCS reduction, but it hasn't. JF17 has a Y-duct to do so, but that or the limited use of composites in Block 2 can't compensate the lack of RAM or coatings, which is the key feature to achive a lower RCS for any 4th gen fighter, be it for a newly developed, or an upgraded like the F16s, or Mig 29s.
> That's where LCA has an advantage, since it was developed with a low RCS as a major aim and no matter what went wrong during the development, this field actually was pretty successful. The knowledge ADA, NAL, HAL and co. gathered wrt to designs, materials and coatings will be highly valuable for any future aircraft projects!


Thanks for the correction , mate and I know knowledge and experience gained from these projects is invaluable , let there be no doubt . There were reports of RAM coatings usage on Thunder , dont know their credibility though .

Answer me this . Is RCS reduction of much use and worth the money and maintenance intensive components for these 4th Gen Aircraft ?


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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> Let us discuss the the capability visible in these videos.
> 
> Steep climbing visible in Video is a clear indication of very high thrust to weight ratio. It points towards so many other potencies of plane also.
> 
> I have seen LCA virtually doing everything except horizantal turn in standard 20 Second time. It is bit slow. I read some where that STR issue is resolved. I am waiting for that Video.



The plane may be potent and will be the best solution for India . But let them first complete the basic requirements like 28* AOA .

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## AMCA

Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas


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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> The plane may be potent and will be the best solution for India . But let them first complete the basic requirements like 28* AOA .




It is on the way of doing that. Scientist said that all technical challenge are now been overcome. Do 28* by FOC and Enhance it further subsequently. They increased it to 24* from 17* in 3 years.


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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> It is on the way of doing that. Scientist said that all technical challenge are now been overcome. Do 28* by FOC and Enhance it further subsequently. They increased it to 24* from 17* in 3 years.



Many steps have to be completed before achieving FOC and looks like somehow they have woke up this year completing record number of test flights .

Also have you got picture of LCA flying with load on the center pylon under the body ??

Because I have not found a single one .


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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> Many steps have to be completed before achieving FOC and looks like somehow they have woke up this year completing record number of test flights .
> 
> Also have you got picture of LCA flying with load on the center pylon under the body ??
> 
> Because I have not found a single one .




I will post it if I find.



AMCA said:


> Please watch the video from 1:43 - 2:03 where it shows the steep vertical climb of Tejas with full battle load. This maneuverability is something new and never seen before.





> Riaz Hussain





> Beerbal
Click to expand...


Pl see above Video. You had opened a thread but video is available now.


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## karan21

Secur said:


> I am sure the Project Managers and PAC aren't lying - these are official reports , kiddo  Your opinion doesn't matter then , at all specially knowing that you usually troll around in threads .


Please care to share these reports. Don't call me kiddo coz ur the one behaving like one right now. If Pakistan was able to produce 58% of components of a 4+ gen plane then there is no way that Pakistan's aerospace industry would be in a condition it is today. Pakistan can't manufacture components of even a 1st gen fighter leave alone a 4+ advanced plane like JF-17. 

Tejas is a plane that has been designed from scratch in India and still India is unable to produce 60% of its parts on its own and has to depend on foreign suppliers. How can Pakistan produce 58% of parts of a plane designed in China. Pakistan is assembling these planes just like India assemble Sukhoi-30 Mki with almost all parts imported from Russia.


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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Answer me this . Is RCS reduction of much use and worth the money and maintainance intensive components for these 4th Gen Aircraft ?


Absolutely, if it lets you gets you to see and fire first....


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## Secur

karan21 said:


> Please care to share these reports. Don't call me kiddo coz ur the one behaving like one right now. If Pakistan was able to produce 58% of components of a 4+ gen plane then there is no way that Pakistan's aerospace industry would be in a condition it is today. Pakistan can't manufacture components of even a 1st gen fighter leave alone a 4+ advanced plane like JF-17.
> 
> Tejas is a plane that has been designed from scratch in India and still India is unable to produce 60% of its parts on its own and has to depend on foreign suppliers. How can Pakistan produce 58% of parts of a plane designed in China. Pakistan is assembling these planes just like India assemble Sukhoi-30 Mki with almost all parts imported from Russia.


*JF-17 production with China’s support*

_Pak contribution rises to 70pc in avionics

Mian Saifur Rehman_
December 3, 2013

*The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft, they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.*

Talking to The News, Pakistani functionaries who had been working in commanding positions in the manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder disclosed that China’s cooperation has been efficiently reciprocated by Pakistani engineers and technicians whose talent has been acknowledged by Chinese scientists.

JF-17 production with China’s support - thenews.com.pk

Google , there are other links too reporting the same thing . Keep underestimating though , doesn't change the reality on ground . The production of components at Kamra will increase to 75% by 2015 but you will still be saying the same thing .


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## sancho

Secur said:


> Thanks for the correction and I know knowledge and experience gained from these projects is invaluable . There were reports of RAM coatings usage on Thunder , dont know their credibility .
> 
> Answer me this . Is RCS reduction of much use and worth the money and maintainance intensive components for these 4th Gen Aircraft ?



Oscar and other senior Pakistani members on defence forums still say that no RAM coatings are used and even the Chinese just started to add composites and coatings to their latest J11 and J10 varients. Another hint are comments of PAF pilots that were stated in the JF 17 thread, which said it has a lower RCS that the older F16s of PAF and we know that they didn't had RCS reduction features either.
Yes, the maintenance of the coatings will be expensive, even more so for stealth fighters which people often forget when they want to see hundreds stealth fighters in PAF, PLAAF or IAF, but the more radar technology and missile technology improves, the more you need to counter that with a lower RCS!
Remember the Cope India 2004 exercise, where US fighters had problems to detect and engage Mig 21s. Take modern BVR tactics with AWACS or active/passive combos to account, even the increased development of stealth or LO fighters, all this makes clear how important RCS reductions are for modern air combats. In fact, we even see that radar has less importance than a low RCS combined with good passive detection and EW capabilities, which applies to modern 4th gen fighters as well as 5th gen stealth fighters. That's where LCA is aimed to as as well and where it can show a good performance in air combat!

- low RCS
- advanced RWR/MAWS
- data link capabilities
- modern WVR and BVR missiles
- HMS + HOBS missiles

All features apart of the MMR, that will add to air combat capabilities today and IAF is pushing hard for all fighters to have comparable capabilities.

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## sancho

AMCA said:


> Please watch the video from 1:43 - 2:03 where it shows the steep vertical climb of Tejas with full battle load. This maneuverability is something new and never seen before.



First of all, check the scene again, it takes off with R73s only, the LCA that was taxing was a different one and even that had no external fuel tanks, so both were far away from a full battle load.
Secondly, don't get into exaggerated conclusion by looking at videos.


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## Manindra

Secur said:


> Thanks for the correction and I know knowledge and experience gained from these projects is invaluable . There were reports of RAM coatings usage on Thunder , dont know their credibility .
> 
> Answer me this . Is RCS reduction of much use and worth the money and maintainance intensive components for these 4th Gen Aircraft ?



RAM coating would add extra weight on aircraft & its expensive to maintain. JF-17 thunder is aim to less expensive & its payload capacity is not much to able to sacrifice.


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## Basel

sancho said:


> That's because too many people confuse low RCS with Stealth and especially DRDO often fuelled this misconception by talking about 5th gen, or stealth upgrades, just like the notion that LCA is the best of it's class is nonsense.
> However, it is not deniable that the LCA was developed and designed with the aim to have a very low RCS for a 4th gen fighter. That's why it was designed to be very small, to have as less surface structures that could reflect radar waves, or why it uses high ammounts of composite and radar absorbing materials from the start and not only added in later upgrade stages.



True, but problem with non stealth planes is that when they are loaded with weapons their RCS increases many folds.


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## Manindra

Basel said:


> True, but problem with non stealth planes is that when they are loaded with weapons their RCS increases many folds.



LCA is being use as point defence so rarely use of external drop tanks. So, less RCS increase.
Being low RCS fighter its RCS would be ow compare to other fighter with same payload.


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## Basel

Manindra said:


> LCA is being use as point defence so rarely use of external drop tanks. So, less RCS increase.
> Being low RCS fighter its RCS would be ow compare to other fighter with same payload.



But it will carry missiles which will increase its RCS and now both countries have AESA AWACS so stealthy fighters will be detected at decent range and with 21st Century net centric warfare they can be shot down, but if pitched against an intruder it will give it very tough time due to same reasons mentioned above.

To use LCA and other planes in this class against potent foe, they should be evolved like Silent Eagle or Silent Hornet that will add some real tooth to these predictors.


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## sancho

Basel said:


> True, but problem with non stealth planes is that when they are loaded with weapons their RCS increases many folds.



Of course, but when the clean fighter has a higher RCS, compared to his opponent, he will also have a higher RCS if both adds the same payload. And the more you can reduce external loads to a minumum (more internal fuel capacity => less increas of RCS through big fuel tanks), the better. That's why F16 B52 have CFTs as an option, or why the Mig 29UPG has increase fuel capacity with the airframe modifications as well, while both have increased the use of composites and radar absorbing coatings.



Manindra said:


> LCA is being use as point defence so rarely use of external drop tanks. So, less RCS increase.
> Being low RCS fighter its RCS would be ow compare to other fighter with same payload.



That's not correct, in interception roles it still will carry at least a single fuel tank to have enough range and endurance, especially when they have to use the AB much to reach the target fast. But they also will do CAP roles, which requires 2 x fuel tanks for increased endurance.


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## Manindra

Basel said:


> But it will carry missiles which will increase its RCS and now both countries have AESA AWACS so stealthy fighters will be detected at decent range and with 21st Century net centric warfare they can be shot down, but if pitched against an intruder it will give it very tough time due to same reasons mentioned above.
> 
> To use LCA and other planes in this class against potent foe, they should be evolved like Silent Eagle or Silent Hornet that will add some real tooth to these predictors.



Silent Eagle is Air superiority Fighter & its competition is with Su-30 MKI
You are comparing apple with oranges.


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## Basel

Manindra said:


> Silent Eagle is Air superiority Fighter & its competition is with Su-30 MKI
> You are comparing apple with oranges.



You did not get my point, I was just referring to their evolution not the plane.


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## Manindra

Basel said:


> You did not get my point, I was just referring to their evolution not the plane.


The right evolution of LCA would be F-16 Block 60


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## Basel

Manindra said:


> The right evolution of LCA would be F-16 Block 60



I think it is very near to it already, but having weapons in pods and nearly non visible to radar from some aspects is the path of Silent Hornet.

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## Manindra

Basel said:


> I think it is very near to it already, but having weapons in pods and nearly non visible to radar from some aspects is the path of Silent Hornet.


We need to work heavily on EW suite, MAWS to fill that gap in MK2 version of LCA

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## sancho

Manindra said:


> We need to work heavily on EW suite, MAWS to fill that gap in MK2 version of LCA



Not necessarily, when you look at the available infos on LCAs EWS, you will find advanced digitial RWR with geolocation capabilities for precise localisation of emiters, only the Growlers have integrated similar capabilities. Also the Silent Hornet upgrade includes IR MAWS and LWR, while even LCAs MK1 EWS will include UV MAWS and LWR if I remember correctly too. MK2 will have some upgrades in this regard too, but the main differences should be power, fuel capacity and hopefully new sensors like IRST and AESA radar, but that needs to be seen.

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## HariPrasad

Full high speed vertical loop withing 20 second.


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## Dazzler

Manindra said:


> The right evolution of LCA would be F-16 Block 60



no harm in being optimistic



Basel said:


> I think it is very near to it already, but having weapons in pods and nearly non visible to radar from some aspects is the path of Silent Hornet.




far from it, not even close mate


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## MilSpec

Basel said:


> True, but problem with non stealth planes is that when they are loaded with weapons their RCS increases many folds.


Weapons bay gondola :0 ...


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## Tacticool

It was said that tejas will be inducted into IAF by 20th december but i haven't found any news about it and its 29 now.


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## karan.1970

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> It was said that tejas will be inducted into IAF by 20th december but i haven't found any news about it and its 29 now.


u need to be more thorough while searching for these news


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## Superboy

A plane cannot be inducted unless at least 1 operational squadron is completed. In Tejas' case, achieving IOC 2 is simply passing another hurdle in its development process. Tejas has not been inducted, simply because there is no combat squadron ready. It's like saying JF-17 is inducted in the Chinese air force when there is no JF-17 squadron in the Chinese air force.

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## holysaturn

*The Tejas fighter’s role in war*






*By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bangalore
Business Standard, 29th Dec 13*

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) obtained Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), entering the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet where regular air force pilots will fly it. After 28 years of development, the Tejas is on course to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end-2014, clearing it for full combat. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is building forty Tejas fighters for two IAF squadrons.

Questions are rightly raised about what combat role the Tejas could play, given that its specifications were framed decades ago. Sceptics argue that a fighter so light, with such a short operating range, would have little role in an aerial battlefield where bigger, heavily armed fighters call the shots.

*Tejas’ capabilities*

An evaluation of the Tejas’ combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling. By FOC next year, this performance would be enhanced.

The Tejas has been designed as a multi-role fighter. It can engage enemy aircraft with the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile (SRAAM); by FOC next year, more potent air-to-air missiles, probably the Israeli Derby and Python, would be integrated. Against ground targets, the Tejas carries conventional and laser-guided bombs. Next year, it will have an integral 23 millimetre Gasha cannon.

The Tejas’ avionics --- radar, laser and inertial navigation system --- enhances the accuracy of these weapons. Its highly rated Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar provides multi-role capability, allowing the pilot to fire air-to-air missiles at enemy aircraft; and also bomb ground targets with a highly accurate navigation-attack system. The pilot operates his weapons through a head-up display (HUD), or through a helmet-mounted sighting system (HMSS) by merely looking at a target. Experienced fighter pilots say the Tejas is the IAF’s most “pilot friendly” fighter.

Although it is one of the world’s lightest fighters, the Tejas’ weapons load of 3,500 kg compares well with most IAF fighters, including the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, upgraded MiG-27 and the MiG-21. Depending on the mission --- strike, photoreconnaissance, or air defence --- its eight hard points can carry missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks or a targeting pod. It can bomb targets and fire missiles as accurately as the Sukhoi-30MKI. The latter scores mainly in its longer range and bigger weapons load, both stemming from its much larger size.

The Tejas’ capability is best known to the air force and navy test pilots in the National Flight Test Centre, who have tested it in 2,400 flights. They claim it may be more versatile than the MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat); the MiG-27 and the Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike); and all variants of the MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON.

The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey); and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.

Said an NFTC test pilot during the IOC ceremony on December 20: *“As a multi-role fighter, the Tejas is at least the equal of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000. It can more than hold its own in our operational scenario.”*

*Battlefield employment*

The IAF’s operational plans earlier had strike aircraft like Jaguars or MiG-27s attacking ground targets, while air defence fighters like the MiG-29 covered them from enemy aircraft. Now mission-specific aircraft are giving way to multi-role fighters, which can do both jobs. This doctrinal shift stemmed from the Mirage-2000, the IAF’s first multi-role fighter, which was inducted in the mid-1980s. The Mirage-2000 inspired the Tejas in both role and design.

Today, the IAF controls the aerial battle from airborne early warning and command (AEW&C) aircraft like the Phalcon, a giant radar mounted on a transport aircraft. Flying over the battle space and scanning 400 kilometres on all sides, the AEW&C identifies enemy aircraft and, over a secure datalink, allocates fighters from nearby bases to tackle the intruders. The AEW&C also orders up fighters to strike ground targets in the land battle.

*“Tejas light fighters, located at forward airbases like Pathankot, Ambala, Sirsa or Jodhpur are ideal for missions in the vicinity of the border. They are close at hand and react quickly. Being far cheaper, they can be bought and used in larger numbers, saturating the enemy’s radar picture and complicating his decision-making,” says a senior former IAF planner.

“With an AEW&C guiding the Tejas directly to the target, it does not need a long operating range; and its combination of Elta-2032 radar and air-to-air missiles, are lethal against most contemporary fighters.”*

Employing the Tejas for the tactical battle would allow the IAF’s heavy, multi-role fighters like the Su-30MKI and Rafale to be focused on targets deep inside enemy territory, which are beyond the range of the Tejas --- such as major air bases, military headquarters and strategic infrastructure. These fighters, which carry far more fuel and weapons, can take off from bases deep inside India, bomb targets deep inside enemy territory, and also shoot down enemy fighters.

Yet, heavy fighters have their downsides. Maintenance is complex, with half the Su-30MKI fleet usually unavailable for operations. Enemy radar picks up the heavy fighters more easily; the Tejas is smaller, and also stealthier, being largely fabricated from composite materials. Moreover, the loss of a Sukhoi-30 is a Rs 400 crore blow; a Tejas will probably costs one-third of that.

Many IAF planners advocate a balanced air force, with a mix of light and heavy fighters. Light fighters like the Tejas would respond to the tactical battle, while heavier fighters, with their longer range and greater strike power, could tackle more strategic targets.

The light fighter has a long tradition in the IAF. On December 17, Defence Minister AK Antony told parliament that 254 MiG-21s --- or 12 squadrons worth --- still remain in service. The Tejas provides an effective replacement for those obsolescent machines. HAL’s new assembly line in HAL Bangalore plans to build 8 Tejas Mark I fighters annually, stepping up capacity to 16 fighters per year. If the IAF absorbs HAL’s entire production capacity, it would have 3-4 squadrons of Mark I fighters; after which the Mark II would start rolling off the line. Creating 12 Tejas squadrons to replace the MiG-21 would retain a balanced air force, and also galvanise the aerospace production eco-system needed for developing the IAF’s future fighters.

Broadsword: The Tejas fighter’s role in war

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## IND151

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) obtained Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), entering the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet where regular air force pilots will fly it. After 28 years of development, the Tejas is on course to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end-2014, clearing it for full combat. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is building forty Tejas fighters for two IAF squadrons.

Questions are rightly raised about what combat role the Tejas could play, given that its specifications were framed decades ago. Sceptics argue that a fighter so light, with such a short operating range, would have little role in an aerial battlefield where bigger, heavily armed fighters call the shots.

*Tejas’ capabilities*

An evaluation of the Tejas’ combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC,* it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors*. *Its combat radius is 300-350 km*, which *would be extended next year* through *in-flight refuelling*. By FOC next year, this performance would be enhanced.

The *Tejas* has been designed as a *multi-role fighter*. It can engage enemy aircraft with the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile (SRAAM); *by FOC next year, more potent air-to-air missiles, probably the Israeli Derby and Python, would be integrated*. Against ground targets, the Tejas carries conventional and laser-guided bombs. *Next year, it will have an integral 23 millimetre Gasha cannon*.

The Tejas’ avionics --- radar, laser and inertial navigation system --- enhances the accuracy of these weapons. *Its highly rated Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar provides multi-role capability*, allowing the pilot to fire air-to-air missiles at enemy aircraft; and also bomb ground targets with a highly accurate navigation-attack system. The pilot operates his weapons through a head-up display (HUD), or through a helmet-mounted sighting system (HMSS) by merely looking at a target.* Experienced fighter pilots say the Tejas is the IAF’s most “pilot friendly” fighter.*

Although it is one of the world’s lightest fighters, the Tejas’ weapons load of 3,500 kg compares well with most IAF fighters, including the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, upgraded MiG-27 and the MiG-21. Depending on the mission --- strike, photoreconnaissance, or air defence --- its *eight hard points *can carry missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks or a targeting pod.* It can bomb targets and fire missiles as accurately as the Sukhoi-30MKI*. The latter scores mainly in its longer range and bigger weapons load, both stemming from its much larger size.

The Tejas’ capability is best known to the* air force* and *navy test pilots* in the National Flight Test Centre, who have tested it in 2,400 flights. *They claim it may be more versatile than the MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat); the MiG-27 and the Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike); and all variants of the MiG-21*, including the multi-role BISON.

The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the *Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey)*; and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China*. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.*

Said an NFTC test pilot during the IOC ceremony on December 20: “As a multi-role fighter, the Tejas is at least the equal of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000. It can more than hold its own in our operational scenario.”

*Battlefield employment*

The IAF’s operational plans earlier had strike aircraft like Jaguars or MiG-27s attacking ground targets, while air defence fighters like the MiG-29 covered them from enemy aircraft. Now mission-specific aircraft are giving way to multi-role fighters, which can do both jobs. This doctrinal shift stemmed from the Mirage-2000, the IAF’s first multi-role fighter, which was inducted in the mid-1980s. *The Mirage-2000 inspired the Tejas in both role and design.*

Today, the IAF controls the aerial battle from airborne early warning and command (AEW&C) aircraft like the Phalcon, a giant radar mounted on a transport aircraft. Flying over the battle space and scanning 400 kilometres on all sides, the AEW&C identifies enemy aircraft and, over a secure datalink, allocates fighters from nearby bases to tackle the intruders. The AEW&C also orders up fighters to strike ground targets in the land battle.

“*Tejas light fighters, located at forward airbases like Pathankot, Ambala, Sirsa or Jodhpur are ideal for missions in the vicinity of the border*. They are close at hand and react quickly.* Being far cheaper, they can be bought and used in larger numbers, saturating the enemy’s radar picture and complicating his decision-making*,” says a senior former IAF planner.

“*With an AEW&C guiding the Tejas directly to the target, it does not need a long operating range; and its combination of Elta-2032 radar and air-to-air missiles, are lethal against most contemporary fighters*.”

Employing the Tejas for the tactical battle would allow the IAF’s heavy, multi-role fighters like the Su-30MKI and Rafale to be focused on targets deep inside enemy territory, which are beyond the range of the Tejas --- such as major air bases, military headquarters and strategic infrastructure. These fighters, which carry far more fuel and weapons, can take off from bases deep inside India, bomb targets deep inside enemy territory, and also shoot down enemy fighters.

Yet, heavy fighters have their downsides. Maintenance is complex, with half the Su-30MKI fleet usually unavailable for operations. Enemy radar picks up the heavy fighters more easily; the Tejas is smaller, and also stealthier, being largely fabricated from composite materials. Moreover, the loss of a Sukhoi-30 is a Rs 400 crore blow; a Tejas will probably costs one-third of that.

Many IAF planners advocate a balanced air force, with a mix of light and heavy fighters. Light fighters like the Tejas would respond to the tactical battle, while heavier fighters, with their longer range and greater strike power, could tackle more strategic targets.

The light fighter has a long tradition in the IAF. On December 17, Defence Minister AK Antony told parliament that 254 MiG-21s --- or 12 squadrons worth --- still remain in service. The Tejas provides an effective replacement for those obsolescent machines. *HAL’s new assembly line in HAL Bangalore plans to build 8 Tejas Mark I fighters annually, stepping up capacity to 16 fighters per year*. If the IAF absorbs HAL’s entire production capacity, it would have 3-4 squadrons of Mark I fighters; after which the Mark II would start rolling off the line. Creating 12 Tejas squadrons to replace the MiG-21 would retain a balanced air force, and also galvanise the aerospace production eco-system needed for developing the IAF’s future fighters.

Broadsword: The Tejas fighter’s role in war



> The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the *Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey)*; and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China*. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.*



@sancho > Take a look at this.

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## rockstarIN

> The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the *Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey)*; and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China*. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.*




@sancho > Take a look at this.[/quote]

Ajay Shukla..!!

Between, the most important part will be Py-5 short range missiles entering India air force in large numbers. Though we will replace Derby with Astra, the short range missile will be Py-5 for 200+ Tejas in future thus quite a large number of missile order will be placed for the best short range A2A missile in the world as of now. Since Russians are not giving source code of R-73 and we will be getting the codes for Py-5, we can integrate it to our other jets like Su-30 etc.

It will be a nightmare for the enemy forces for sure.

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## IND151

rockstarIN said:


> @sancho > Take a look at this.



Ajay Shukla..!!

Between, the most important part will be Py-5 short range missiles entering India air force in large numbers. *Though we will replace Derby with Astra, the short range missile will be Py-5 for 200+ Tejas in future thus quite a large number of missile order will be placed for the best short range A2A missile in the world as of now*. Since Russians are not giving source code of R-73 and we will be getting the codes for Py-5, we can integrate it to our other jets like Su-30 etc.

It will be a nightmare for the enemy forces for sure.[/quote]

Any source for news?


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## Alfa-Fighter

Guys , any design final for Tejas-2?


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## fsayed

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Guys , any design final for Tejas-2?





















concept lca+pakfa stealth aircraft nice thinking it can b done in future tejas program

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## rockstarIN

IND151 said:


> Ajay Shukla..!!
> 
> Between, the most important part will be Py-5 short range missiles entering India air force in large numbers. *Though we will replace Derby with Astra, the short range missile will be Py-5 for 200+ Tejas in future thus quite a large number of missile order will be placed for the best short range A2A missile in the world as of now*. Since Russians are not giving source code of R-73 and we will be getting the codes for Py-5, we can integrate it to our other jets like Su-30 etc.
> 
> It will be a nightmare for the enemy forces for sure.



Any source for news?[/quote]


It is mentioned everywhere that Tejas will have Derby+py-5 combo in all ADA or other sources. Since Derby will be replaced with Astra, Py-5 will continue as short range missile for Mk-2 too.


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## Donatello

holysaturn said:


> *The Tejas fighter’s role in war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By Ajai Shukla
> HAL, Bangalore
> Business Standard, 29th Dec 13*
> 
> On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) obtained Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), entering the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet where regular air force pilots will fly it. After 28 years of development, the Tejas is on course to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end-2014, clearing it for full combat. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is building forty Tejas fighters for two IAF squadrons.
> 
> Questions are rightly raised about what combat role the Tejas could play, given that its specifications were framed decades ago. Sceptics argue that a fighter so light, with such a short operating range, would have little role in an aerial battlefield where bigger, heavily armed fighters call the shots.
> 
> *Tejas’ capabilities*
> 
> An evaluation of the Tejas’ combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling. By FOC next year, this performance would be enhanced.
> 
> The Tejas has been designed as a multi-role fighter. It can engage enemy aircraft with the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile (SRAAM); by FOC next year, more potent air-to-air missiles, probably the Israeli Derby and Python, would be integrated. Against ground targets, the Tejas carries conventional and laser-guided bombs. Next year, it will have an integral 23 millimetre Gasha cannon.
> 
> The Tejas’ avionics --- radar, laser and inertial navigation system --- enhances the accuracy of these weapons. Its highly rated Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar provides multi-role capability, allowing the pilot to fire air-to-air missiles at enemy aircraft; and also bomb ground targets with a highly accurate navigation-attack system. The pilot operates his weapons through a head-up display (HUD), or through a helmet-mounted sighting system (HMSS) by merely looking at a target. Experienced fighter pilots say the Tejas is the IAF’s most “pilot friendly” fighter.
> 
> Although it is one of the world’s lightest fighters, the Tejas’ weapons load of 3,500 kg compares well with most IAF fighters, including the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, upgraded MiG-27 and the MiG-21. Depending on the mission --- strike, photoreconnaissance, or air defence --- its eight hard points can carry missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks or a targeting pod. It can bomb targets and fire missiles as accurately as the Sukhoi-30MKI. The latter scores mainly in its longer range and bigger weapons load, both stemming from its much larger size.
> 
> The Tejas’ capability is best known to the air force and navy test pilots in the National Flight Test Centre, who have tested it in 2,400 flights. They claim it may be more versatile than the MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat); the MiG-27 and the Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike); and all variants of the MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON.
> 
> The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey); and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.
> 
> Said an NFTC test pilot during the IOC ceremony on December 20: *“As a multi-role fighter, the Tejas is at least the equal of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000. It can more than hold its own in our operational scenario.”*
> 
> *Battlefield employment*
> 
> The IAF’s operational plans earlier had strike aircraft like Jaguars or MiG-27s attacking ground targets, while air defence fighters like the MiG-29 covered them from enemy aircraft. Now mission-specific aircraft are giving way to multi-role fighters, which can do both jobs. This doctrinal shift stemmed from the Mirage-2000, the IAF’s first multi-role fighter, which was inducted in the mid-1980s. The Mirage-2000 inspired the Tejas in both role and design.
> 
> Today, the IAF controls the aerial battle from airborne early warning and command (AEW&C) aircraft like the Phalcon, a giant radar mounted on a transport aircraft. Flying over the battle space and scanning 400 kilometres on all sides, the AEW&C identifies enemy aircraft and, over a secure datalink, allocates fighters from nearby bases to tackle the intruders. The AEW&C also orders up fighters to strike ground targets in the land battle.
> 
> *“Tejas light fighters, located at forward airbases like Pathankot, Ambala, Sirsa or Jodhpur are ideal for missions in the vicinity of the border. They are close at hand and react quickly. Being far cheaper, they can be bought and used in larger numbers, saturating the enemy’s radar picture and complicating his decision-making,” says a senior former IAF planner.
> 
> “With an AEW&C guiding the Tejas directly to the target, it does not need a long operating range; and its combination of Elta-2032 radar and air-to-air missiles, are lethal against most contemporary fighters.”*
> 
> Employing the Tejas for the tactical battle would allow the IAF’s heavy, multi-role fighters like the Su-30MKI and Rafale to be focused on targets deep inside enemy territory, which are beyond the range of the Tejas --- such as major air bases, military headquarters and strategic infrastructure. These fighters, which carry far more fuel and weapons, can take off from bases deep inside India, bomb targets deep inside enemy territory, and also shoot down enemy fighters.
> 
> Yet, heavy fighters have their downsides. Maintenance is complex, with half the Su-30MKI fleet usually unavailable for operations. Enemy radar picks up the heavy fighters more easily; the Tejas is smaller, and also stealthier, being largely fabricated from composite materials. Moreover, the loss of a Sukhoi-30 is a Rs 400 crore blow; a Tejas will probably costs one-third of that.
> 
> Many IAF planners advocate a balanced air force, with a mix of light and heavy fighters. Light fighters like the Tejas would respond to the tactical battle, while heavier fighters, with their longer range and greater strike power, could tackle more strategic targets.
> 
> The light fighter has a long tradition in the IAF. On December 17, Defence Minister AK Antony told parliament that 254 MiG-21s --- or 12 squadrons worth --- still remain in service. The Tejas provides an effective replacement for those obsolescent machines. HAL’s new assembly line in HAL Bangalore plans to build 8 Tejas Mark I fighters annually, stepping up capacity to 16 fighters per year. If the IAF absorbs HAL’s entire production capacity, it would have 3-4 squadrons of Mark I fighters; after which the Mark II would start rolling off the line. Creating 12 Tejas squadrons to replace the MiG-21 would retain a balanced air force, and also galvanise the aerospace production eco-system needed for developing the IAF’s future fighters.
> 
> Broadsword: The Tejas fighter’s role in war



What a joke. LCA is equal to F-16 BLK52.

Nice.


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## Alfa-Fighter

but they are two type of design in LCA -2, LCA-2 has frameless canopy


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## fsayed

Alfa-Fighter said:


> but they are two type of design in LCA -2


not listen any such thing any source mate we all aware tejas mk2 is just bigger in design bigger wing bigger airintake better avionics ,engine,and better radar but not major aircraft design changes


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## indiatester

Donatello said:


> What a joke. LCA is equal to F-16 BLK52.
> 
> Nice.


I'd have thought so too had it been from one of the posters here. Coming from a pilot, I'd pay a bit more attention. Ofcourse no rule that says pilots can't be trollers.

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## Kompromat

indiatester said:


> I'd have thought so too had it been from one of the posters here. Coming from a pilot, I'd pay a bit more attention. Ofcourse no rule that says pilots can't be trollers.



Tejas has the potential to do what IAF wants. It would have to evolve to do so.

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## PoKeMon

Aeronaut said:


> Tejas has the potential to do what IAF wants. It would have to evolve to do so.



Of course it has to. It is just an IOC-2 status craft, FOC will add much required punch to it. To compete with F-16 upper end blocks, MK II is required. It has to evolve to become multirole fighter from being merely an interceptor as of now.


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## Manindra

Donatello said:


> What a joke. LCA is equal to F-16 BLK52.
> 
> Nice.



Where did it says that ?
It says that it is only inferior to F-16 Block 50/52 in PAF arsenel.



Donatello said:


> What a joke. LCA is equal to F-16 BLK52.
> 
> Nice.



Where did it says that ?
It says that it is only inferior to F-16 Block 50/52 in PAF arsenel.


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## Last Samuri

Current LCA will not survive 1 v 1 against F16/52 in most engagements.

LCA ioc2 v thunder mk1 = result unknown

I wonder if the IAF will carry DACT excercises between LCA MK1 and mirage2000 mig29 & su30mki.

Then we will know how good or bad the tejas really is.

infact IAF have a permanent base inindia for singpores F16/52 and they could even do DACT with them.


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## SR-91

Im pretty sure,when the time comes,it is the first thing IAF will do. 

IAF knows PAF most capable fighter is F-16.


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## IND151

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) was cleared to enter operational service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Now Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) faces the daunting transition from handcrafting Tejas prototypes into factory-assembling the 200-fighter Tejas fleet that Defence Minister AK Antony has envisioned.

*The ministry of defence (MoD) has sanctioned Rs 1,556 crore for HAL’s high tech production line that aims to build 12 Tejas fighters each year*. The funds will come from the IAF (25 per cent); the navy (25 per cent), while HAL will put up half the money.

Business Standard visited the new Tejas production line, an expansive 28,000 square metre facility in four massive hangars in HAL, Bangalore. Work is already underway on the first IAF order of 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, with an order for 20 more in the pipeline once the aircraft gets “final operational clearance” next year. The first two fighters being “series produced” --- they are numbered SP-1 and SP-2 --- are visibly taking shape.

“By end-March 2014, SP-1 will fly, and SP-2 will fly a few months later. By the end of next year four Tejas will be in production. *In 2015-16, we will build six fighters, and in 2016-17, we will build nine. We are targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters*,” says V Sridharan, the project manager hand-chosen to build the LCA. Earlier, he set up HAL’s production line for the Hawk trainer.

Over the years, excellent designs like the Arjun tank have failed the transition from design into product. This is because India’s archaic defence production policies make the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) responsible for designing equipment, with production responsibility then passing onto a network of 8 defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) and 39 ordnance factories (OFs) with long reputations for sloppy production. Having played little role in design, the manufacturing agencies struggle to produce the system.

The Tejas could be a game-changer. Firstly, HAL has played a major role both in designing the Tejas and in building prototypes for the flight-test programme. Secondly, HAL has brought a radically new approach to Tejas production, adopting global aerospace manufacturing standards and an unprecedented approach to quality control.

Walking around the Tejas assembly line, *Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other*. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions*. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes* and then flown back into combat.

“As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels,” explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called “locators”) on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.

It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of “stabilising” the Tejas line.

“Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. *HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17*,” he says.

That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.

Within ADA and in HAL, there is expectation that better production could improve aircraft performance. “Better build quality could well improve the Tejas’ aerodynamic performance, reducing drag, and improving its speed, rate of climb and turn rate,” says a designer.

HAL’s chairman, RK Tyagi, explains that the international best practices being introduced in the Tejas assembly line will be replicated across all the aerospace giant’s production lines, including the Sukhoi-30MKI line in Nashik and the Hawk trainer line in Bangalore.

“We have earmarked Rs 3,500 crore of HAL funds for making our production lines world class. Our focus is to gain the IAF’s confidence. We will do what is necessary for that,” says Tyagi.

Broadsword: HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year



Last Samuri said:


> Current LCA will not survive 1 v 1 against F16/52 in most engagements.
> 
> LCA ioc2 v thunder mk1 = result unknown
> 
> I wonder if the IAF will carry DACT excercises between LCA MK1 and mirage2000 mig29 & su30mki.
> 
> Then we will know how good or bad the tejas really is.
> 
> *infact IAF have a permanent base inindia for singpores F16/52 and they could even do DACT with them.*



Kindly give source.

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## Black Widow

Last Samuri said:


> Current LCA will not survive 1 v 1 against F16/52 in most engagements.
> 
> LCA ioc2 v thunder mk1 = result unknown
> 
> I wonder if the IAF will carry DACT excercises between LCA MK1 and mirage2000 mig29 & su30mki.
> 
> Then we will know how good or bad the tejas really is.
> 
> infact IAF have a permanent base inindia for singpores F16/52 and they could even do DACT with them.





Oh!.. I don't know how to handle such posts...

F16 Blk-52 and LCA are different class fighters. Infact both are used for different role in IAF and PAF. There is no point in comparing both. 

And more over LCA is desi design. IAF will not pick it if it doesn't fit in IAF role. LCA will be tested against MiG29 Jaguar (fighter bomber) as a interceptor. 


LCA is basically a *point defense fighter* with *limited additional capability*. Its not something which can fit in shoe of Su27.


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## Black Widow

Donatello said:


> What a joke. LCA is equal to F-16 BLK52.
> 
> Nice.




U are unable to comprehend the phrase.. I will suggest you to reread the article. The article says "PAF F16 new blocks can give challenge to LCA" which is a polite way to say that LCA is inferior to those planes.. 

Comprehension issue again...

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## faithfulguy

IND_PAK said:


> Of course it has to. It is just an IOC-2 status craft, FOC will add much required punch to it. To compete with F-16 upper end blocks, MK II is required. It has to evolve to become multirole fighter from being merely an interceptor as of now.



Seems like there will be multiple iterations on LCA. I wonder if this will impact AMCA design in the future. Are the LCA scientists and engineers now back to work on their previous projects that they had to drop after being recruited to only work on LCA?



Black Widow said:


> Oh!.. I don't know how to handle such posts...
> 
> F16 Blk-52 and LCA are different class fighters. Infact both are used for different role in IAF and PAF. There is no point in comparing both.
> 
> And more over LCA is desi design. IAF will not pick it if it doesn't fit in IAF role. LCA will be tested against MiG29 Jaguar (fighter bomber) as a interceptor.
> 
> 
> LCA is basically a *point defense fighter* with *limited additional capability*. Its not something which can fit in shoe of Su27.



In another word, LCA as of now is good enough to replace Mig 21, as its a point defense fighter. Nothing else.


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## sincity

LCA is India version of 6 generation fighter jet. F22 can't compete with LCA in a dogfight, F22 will beg for mercy when confronting LCA in the battle.


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## Jayanta

sincity said:


> LCA is India version of 6 generation fighter jet. F22 can't compete with LCA in a dogfight, F22 will beg for mercy when confronting LCA in the battle.

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## sincity

LCA too lethal in the air, US air force don't dare to engage in a dogfight.


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## Jayanta

sincity said:


> LCA too lethal in the air, US air force don't dare to engage in a dogfight.


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## HariPrasad

fsayed said:


> concept lca+pakfa stealth aircraft nice thinking it can b done in future tejas program




Look at the landing gears. they are moved to Wing root like Gripen. It is believed that it will liberate a lots of usable space in fuselage. Atleast 1200 liters of additional fuel tank shall be added. Avionocs shall get compact will liberate additional space. Readjustments of LRUS will take place. There will be an elevated cockpit and plug in fuselage as well as radome. Tejas will loose weight if ELTA 2052 is integrated.There will be arrow Delta Wing in place of cranked Delta wing

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## sincity

Jayanta said:


>




Don't be too uptight, I'm singing praise of the LCA.

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## HariPrasad

Can we use Trishul technology to Develop a short range missile? We used the same in LRSAM and Astra?


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## Black Widow

faithfulguy said:


> In another word, LCA as of now is good enough to replace Mig 21, as its a point defense fighter. Nothing else.




You Got it wrong, LCA is good enough to replace a point defense fighter (Which in our case is MiG21). The Primary role is point defense. 

A Low cost fighter which can relieve Heavy fighters(Like F15, Su27) to concentrate on deep penetration. 

My statement doesn't infer that LCA is just good as MiG21. 

Addition to this, if needed LCA can act as a fighter bomber (Like Mirage2000H) without any escort (like Mig29 did for M2000H During Kargil War)...

The primary role of this small bird is point defense, and these will be placed/stationed at forward bases, where it can fly immediately to neutralize a threat..

Hope it is clear now.. (Having said that, I am sure I can't convince Chinese members)

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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> Can we use Trishul technology to Develop a short range missile? We used the same in LRSAM and Astra?



I think we are using some technology from Trishul in Maitri missile being developed with France .


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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> I think we are using some technology from Trishul in MR-SAM being developed with france .




It is Maitri and mot MR SAM. MRSAM is developed with Israel. Maitri is a very potent missile and can certainly a Ato A version can be developed.



Black Widow said:


> You Got it wrong, LCA is good enough to replace a point defense fighter (Which in our case is MiG21). The Primary role is point defense.
> 
> A Low cost fighter which can relieve Heavy fighters(Like F15, Su27) to concentrate on deep penetration.
> 
> My statement doesn't infer that LCA is just good as MiG21.
> 
> Addition to this, if needed LCA can act as a fighter bomber (Like Mirage2000H) without any escort (like Mig29 did for M2000H During Kargil War)...
> 
> The primary role of this small bird is point defense, and these will be placed/stationed at forward bases, where it can fly immediately to neutralize a threat..
> 
> Hope it is clear now.. (Having said that, I am sure I can't convince Chinese members)




I heard an interview of test pilot of Tejas. He said that the planes Ground Bombing and fighting capabilities are equally appreciable. He sad that both are 50-50.

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## Black Widow

HariPrasad said:


> I heard an interview of test pilot of Tejas. He said that the planes Ground Bombing and fighting capabilities are equally appreciable. He sad that both are 50-50.




Yes I agree. But my personal opinion is, LCA will be used 2 way
1. Point defense fighter
2. Once Air Superiority or Air Dominance achieved by Su27s/F15/MiG29 , ground attack.


Again this is my personal view and opinion.. one can free to differ..


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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> It is Maitri and mot MR SAM. MRSAM is developed with Israel. Maitri is a very potent missile and can certainly a Ato A version can be developed.



Thanks for the correction .

Editing my post .

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## PoKeMon

faithfulguy said:


> Seems like there will be multiple iterations on LCA. I wonder if this will impact AMCA design in the future. Are the LCA scientists and engineers now back to work on their previous projects that they had to drop after being recruited to only work on LCA?



To be frank AMCA dont really exist. Nothing significant have been done in this project. HAL can not take that many projects simultaneously. We are still active in MKI production, LCA Mk II is in line, then we have NLCA, Rafale and FGFA. We might re start working on AMCA from 2020 onwards, till then a small scale work on design may continue.

Right now priority is given to LCA, get the fighter in minimal operative condition as Mk I and start developing Mk II. I wont say iterations, may be additions. Apart from increase in fuselage and tweak in air intakes to accommodate new engine, there wont be much changes. Its just addition of capabilities and integration of more lethal arms.

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## SQ8

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You mean JFT can't cross 17* AOA? Seriously? I haven't been paying attention with all the modi bashing going on



I wonder where he dug up that figure.



HariPrasad said:


> *unlike some so called 4th generation which can not exceed 17* AOA.*



I wonder how some copy paste enthusiast came up with that figure?


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## SQ8

HariPrasad said:


> Now you are not a copy pest enthusiast like me, Pl provide the AOA figure of JF 17 which is hardly discussed in any forum of forms a part of official release like Tejas. A lots of Horrible facts of JF 17 is available here.
> 
> Pakistani JF-17 A Thunder OR A Blunder | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS



Based on opinion of one biased person whose blog is full of baseless self made figures.. you biased as you are .. are forwarding it. Hence it makes me think if ANY of your posts has anything of actual information other than copy paste loghorrea.. a term that means information dioherria.. whether that information is actually correct or not. 

There is NO AoA figure of JF-17 provided..not even in official briefing by PAC nor by the Chief designer.. and yet you have chosen to state that fact.. and still believe BS.. Bravo Hari...there is something called nationalism.. and there is something called blind jingoistic idiocy. 

Hence all you are going is looking around to diss the JF-17 without proof or anything. So I think it best to ban you from all aviation threads so you stop your repetitive parroting of baseless figures.

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## Guynextdoor2

Oscar said:


> Based on opinion of one biased person whose blog is full of baseless self made figures.. you biased as you are .. are forwarding it. Hence it makes me think if ANY of your posts has anything of actual information other than copy paste loghorrea.. a term that means information dioherria.. whether that information is actually correct or not.
> 
> There is NO AoA figure of JF-17 provided..not even in official briefing by PAC nor by the Chief designer.. and yet you have chosen to state that fact.. and still believe BS.. Bravo Hari...there is something called nationalism.. and there is something called blind jingoistic idiocy.
> 
> Hence all you are going is looking around to diss the JF-17 without proof or anything. So I think it best to ban you from all aviation threads so you stop your repetitive parroting of baseless figures.



I don't know what is supposed to be so mysterious and secreteive about giving AOA figures?


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> Take a look at this.



The usual Ajay Shukla reports, with a lot of mistakes when it comes to air force matters.



Aeronaut said:


> Tejas has the potential to do what IAF wants. It would have to evolve to do so.



MK1 after FOC will be able to do what IAF wants it to do, provide air defence and CAS. The MK2 is meant to improve the performance in these roles, not to do them in general.




Black Widow said:


> Oh!.. I don't know how to handle such posts...
> 
> F16 Blk-52 and LCA are different class fighters. Infact both are used for different role in IAF and PAF. There is no point in comparing both.



Actually PAF and IAF will use them in the same roles and there is no issue in comparing them, the difference is only that the F16s overall performance is better (payloads, weapon load configs, speed, range...), but there are fields where the LCA is already superior to PAFs F16s too (RCS, HMS + HOBS, EWS and in operational terms of course also the costs).
Not even MK2 will be able to surpass the F16s in the overall comparison, but will increase the fields where it holds advantages especially in A2A roles.

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I have a dumb question. If Tejas will take time to come in, why are we selling Sukhois? Let the newer plaforms be in service till the new squadrons come in?


What Sukhois is India selling? Of you're referring to the ex-IAF MKs the Russians are possibly selling to the Angolans then this has ZERO to do with India. These birds were sent back to the Ruskies a long time ago when the full-spec MKIs were delivered.


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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> What Sukhois is India selling? Of you're referring to the ex-IAF MKs the Russians are possibly selling to the Angolans then this has ZERO to do with India. These birds were sent back to the Ruskies a long time ago when the full-spec MKIs were delivered.



Actually I'm saying we could have retained them. We could have run them coz we have the infra and we knew the force levels were going down.


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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Actually I'm saying we could have retained them. We could have run them coz we have the infra and we knew the force levels were going down.


This was about a decade ago. And the MKs were ONLY ever a temporary measure until the full MKIs were ready for service.


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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> This was about a decade ago. And the MKs were ONLY ever a temporary measure until the full MKIs were ready for service.



I know, this was the initial batch. But considering the real no. of aircraft are coming down, I'm curious as to why we actually gave them off. As the bisons go down and the Rafale & LCA takes time to come in, would have helped maintain nos. Sure they're not MKIs, but then neigther are the bisons.


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## Alfa-Fighter

Oscar said:


> Based on opinion of one biased person whose blog is full of baseless self made figures.. you biased as you are .. are forwarding it. Hence it makes me think if ANY of your posts has anything of actual information other than copy paste loghorrea.. a term that means information dioherria.. whether that information is actually correct or not.
> 
> There is NO AoA figure of JF-17 provided..not even in official briefing by PAC nor by the Chief designer.. and yet you have chosen to state that fact.. and still believe BS.. Bravo Hari...there is something called nationalism.. and there is something called blind jingoistic idiocy.
> 
> Hence all you are going is looking around to diss the JF-17 without proof or anything. So I think it best to ban you from all aviation threads so you stop your repetitive parroting of baseless figures.



Let assume if JF-17 AoA is high then PAF /PAK writers go gaga about its, when especially JF-17 shows with moke-up missile models even they have not tested yet.

therefore its safely assume that JF-17 AoA is not good thats why Jf-17 production was stopped for a while.


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## AnnoyingOrange

TEJAS Team Set New Record of 500 Flights in 2013

The previous record stood at 300 sorties.In 2013, the team participated in seven detachments across the country and carried out tests like shutting off and reignition of the engine, high energy brake testing, flight envelope expansion, missile firing with radar guidance, air-to-ground weapon testing and wet runway trials, the DRDO said. 

TEJAS Team Set New Record of 500 Flights in 2013

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## sancho

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I know, this was the initial batch. But considering the real no. of aircraft are coming down, I'm curious as to why we actually gave them off. As the bisons go down and the Rafale & LCA takes time to come in, would have helped maintain nos. Sure they're not MKIs, but then neigther are the bisons.



It was just a single squadron, so they wouldn't had made a difference wrt to squadron numbers and IAF wanted a common technical base for training and tactics and they had different radar, avionics, no canards or TVC.
IF there would be a need for a fast addition of fighters, we just would order more fighters from the original vendors, instead of licence producing them all in India ( 22 x MKIs from IRKUT + 20 x from HAL, instead of 42 x from HAL till 2017).

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## SQ8

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Let assume if JF-17 AoA is high then PAF /PAK writers go gaga about its, when especially JF-17 shows with moke-up missile models even they have not tested yet.
> 
> therefore its *safely assume that JF-17 AoA* is not good thats why Jf-17 production was stopped for a while.



That is the most unsafe assumption ever. The JF-17 production was halted for reasons that had NOTHING to do with the aircraft. I suggest such notions be dropped permanently or its propagators shut up until they have proof.

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## Sergi

Oscar said:


> *So I think it best to ban you from all aviation threads so you stop your repetitive parroting of baseless figures*.



Oscar Sir , If you seriously going to Ban this guy please extend that courtesy to other members who do the same in many thread irrespective of Nationalism 

Just a wish BTW


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## SQ8

Sergi said:


> Oscar Sir , If you seriously going to Ban this guy please extend that courtesy to other members who do the same in many thread irrespective of Nationalism
> 
> Just a wish BTW



Use the report system. Ive already banned a Pk member from the PAF stickys for posting irrelevant pointless material.

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## Sergi

Oscar said:


> Use the report system. Ive already banned a Pk member from the PAF stickys for posting irrelevant pointless material.


That will do but I will mention you with the quote 
Thanks


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## Speeder 2

Black Widow said:


> .
> 
> My statement doesn't infer that LCA is just good as MiG21.




Of course it isn't. Mig21 is WAY better.

1. Mig 21 is a legend in world's aviation industry.

2. Mig 21 has been serving many countries across the world for decades.

3. Mig 21, produced by many countries in thousands, has been tested countless times in real wars and conflicts.

What does LCA have in comparison? 

First make it fly reliablely,

then try to make it officially inducted in the airforce in large numbers,

then try to export (for profit) 1 or 2 of them ,

then test how it pans out in a small conflict,

...

then you might have a tiny realised bragging right to try to compare with the legendary Mig 21.

At the moment, LCA is nothing, it can not even compare or deal with China's good old J-7G in point defence and interception. J-7G is way faster, serving for decade/s thus fully tested.


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## SQ8

Speeder 2 said:


> J-7G is way faster, serving for decade/s thus fully tested.



Yes the J-7G/F-7MG is a fine point defence interceptor.. but it does not hold a candle to the capability of the potential operational Tejas. Be it in range, load carrying capacity, avionics capabilities(_both current and growth_) and design. Yes, the F-7BGI for e.g. is a great point defence interceptor and if armed with a HMD/HOBS combo might give the tejas a run for its money at close range.. but as such it will not be able to matche the Tejas in engaging at BVR ranges and avoiding counterattacks through electronic means. The F-7G is something thought up by Grumman(as part of the Super 7 program) engineers in the early 80's. and that is the level it is..

The biggest flaw for the Tejas was its protracted development program that has garnered it a fair share of critics. otherwise its a fine little aircraft..

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## sudhir007

Flight test update:
From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2448 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-380,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-180,LSP4-102,LSP5-240,LSP7-77,NP1-6,LSP8-62)
To:
LCA Tejas has completed 2467 Test Flights Successfully. (02-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-381*,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,*LSP3-183,LSP4-110,LSP5-246*,LSP7-77,*NP1-7*,LSP8-62)

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## indiatester

sudhir007 said:


> Flight test update:
> From:
> LCA-Tejas has completed 2448 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Dec-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-380,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-180,LSP4-102,LSP5-240,LSP7-77,NP1-6,LSP8-62)
> To:
> LCA Tejas has completed 2467 Test Flights Successfully. (02-Jan-2013).
> (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,*PV3-381*,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,*LSP3-183,LSP4-110,LSP5-246*,LSP7-77,*NP1-7*,LSP8-62)


I hope we will get to hear about the TD flight with EW integrated. Any idea when that might happen?


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## Irfan Baloch

here is my LCA model I made in Spore

enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani

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## Jayanta

Irfan Baloch said:


> here is my LCA model I made in Spore
> 
> enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani



Increase the number of hardpoints...and it would be perfect.

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## satishkumarcsc

Irfan Baloch said:


> here is my LCA model I made in Spore
> 
> enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani



THe nose and fore fuselage is screwed up.


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## my2cents

Irfan Baloch said:


> here is my LCA model I made in Spore
> 
> enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani



Great effort!! Where are the payloads??


----------



## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Based on opinion of one biased person whose blog is full of baseless self made figures.. you biased as you are .. are forwarding it. Hence it makes me think if ANY of your posts has anything of actual information other than copy paste loghorrea.. a term that means information dioherria.. whether that information is actually correct or not.
> 
> *There is NO AoA figure of JF-17 provided..not even in official briefing by PAC nor by the Chief designer.*. and yet you have chosen to state that fact.. and still believe BS.. Bravo Hari...there is something called nationalism.. and there is something called blind jingoistic idiocy.
> 
> Hence all you are going is looking around to diss the JF-17 without proof or anything. So I think it best to ban you from all aviation threads so you stop your repetitive parroting of baseless figures.



AoA of JF-17 is 26* degree as per JF-17 pilot as qouted in Air International Magazine article



Alfa-Fighter said:


> Let assume if JF-17 AoA is high then PAF /PAK writers go gaga about its, when especially JF-17 shows with moke-up missile models even they have not tested yet.
> 
> therefore its safely assume that JF-17 AoA is not good thats why Jf-17 production was stopped for a while.



And you are no better than Harri in terms of knowing JF-17. JF-17 with real SD-10 and C-802 missile attached with it and with IFR pics are available on internet only if you bother to do a little research and reading


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## Alfa-Fighter

mafiya said:


> AoA of JF-17 is 26* degree as per JF-17 pilot as qouted in Air International Magazine article
> 
> 
> 
> And you are no better than Harri in terms of knowing JF-17. JF-17 with real SD-10 and C-802 missile attached with it and with IFR pics are available on internet only if you bother to do a little research and reading



Please show launching pics and not attach pictures , to prove that it is not just toy attached from it for marketing purpose. Till then rest and sleep .

Pak has habit for saying wrong just for marking and moral boaster thing . We saw in successful missile launches. therefore no credibility until and unless u don't show launching videos.


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## rockstarIN

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Please show launching pics and not attach pictures , to prove that it is not just toy attached from it for marketing purpose. Till then rest and sleep .



There is a video in JFT information pool which shows test firing of SD-10. 

But many members as well as other voices from Pak establishment voiced that it will be with their Blk 2, not the current 50(which might get updated later)


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## SQ8

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Please show launching pics and not attach pictures , to prove that it is not just toy attached from it for marketing purpose. Till then rest and sleep .
> 
> Pak has habit for saying wrong just for marking and moral boaster thing . We saw in successful missile launches. therefore no credibility until and unless u don't show launching videos.


The pictures all exist for you in the JF-17 pool. You on the other hand are only here to diss and waste bandwidth.. and I wll ensure that your pie hole is shut permanently until you learn to debate properly. As of now you are banned from all Aviation threads.


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## Jayanta

Oscar said:


> The pictures all exist for you in the JF-17 pool. You on the other hand are only here to diss and waste bandwidth.. and I wll ensure that your pie hole is shut permanently until you learn to debate properly. As of now you are banned from all Aviation threads.



I hope you would take similar steps for green and red flag holders who come up with JF-17 in every discussion. For eg: Faiz ... who was busy di*k measuring JF-17 with GSLV.


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## Irfan Baloch

satishkumarcsc said:


> THe nose and fore fuselage is screwed up.


I am sorry to disappoint you, I knew that my limited skills will fall short of the expectations of some people like you who have much higher standards and a critical eye..

like I said earlier, my work is limited to my skills and limitations of game editor, its essentially a game platform.

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## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you, I knew that my limited skills will fall short of the expectations of some people like you who have much higher standards and a critical eye..
> 
> like I said earlier, my work is limited to my skills and limitations of game editor, its essentially a game platform.


 
Never mind that.
I cannot even do as much.......but watch enviously at the likes of you and @Oscar and some others here.

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## Irfan Baloch

Capt.Popeye said:


> Never mind that.
> I cannot even do as much.......but watch enviously at the likes of you and @Oscar and some others here.



you flatter me and I am grateful . for my work and for comparing me with @Oscar . he is leagues ahead of me hehe.



Capt.Popeye said:


> Never mind that.
> I cannot even do as much.......but watch enviously at the likes of you and @Oscar and some others here.


I better move out of this thread .. I will get mauled here, I jsut posted this silly video to bring the temperatures down a bit.


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## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> you flatter me and I am grateful . for my work and for comparing me with @Oscar . he is leagues ahead of me hehe.
> 
> 
> I better move out of this thread .. I will get mauled here, I jsut posted this silly video to bring the temperatures down a bit.


 
NoNo; don't do that. It was certainly an acceptable intervention on your part. Then it showcased something that many like me cannot do. But it makes me think: could I do that too? 
Most of all, you have a right to be here as much as anybody else.


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## rockstarIN

Irfan Baloch said:


> you flatter me and I am grateful . for my work and for comparing me with @ . he is leagues ahead of me hehe.
> 
> 
> [B]I better move out of this thread .. I will get mauled here,[/B] I jsut posted this silly video to bring the temperatures down a bit. ;)





There is no such thing, should not be, like pakistani memebers can't discuss about LCA in LCA sticky thread and vise versa. You are always welcome here mate.!


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## SQ8

Jayanta said:


> I hope you would take similar steps for green and red flag holders who come up with JF-17 in every discussion. For eg: Faiz ... who was busy di*k measuring JF-17 with GSLV.


Use the report button. I am sparing no one on pointless parroting posts in technical threads.

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## nik22

Irfan Baloch said:


> here is my LCA model I made in Spore
> 
> enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani


Cool job Sir! Liked your song selection


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## sancho

New LCA pics on the website:

Pre IOC Trials in Jamnagar and Goa - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft

Calendar 2014 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft


I love these side by side views:

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## Basel

LCA is a good point defense plane as per its published specs and with Indian air defense and support air crafts like Mig-29 it will be very hard to handle it, only F-35 class fighter will be able to overcome all those obstacles with ease.

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## PARIKRAMA

lol.. don take me wrong.. but i love the sarcasm here...

LCA as point defense - True
Hard to handle by other birds - Not true
F35 point - Lol No F 35 will be in South East Asia unless sumthn comes up in a package deal with indian Navy IAC2 or later

The final Product OF LCA is not yet out.. so hold ur horses,.. its a beauty no doubt but making it a proper beast will require some more time.. yet we all have confidence that when the true potential is revealed even in MK1 or later planned MK2, we all will be happy to accept the finished product along with other benefits like solidifying the foundation of our nascent aircraft manufacturing industry and allied services..

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## Basel

@PARIKRAMA: if first part of your post refers to my post then its true that in South Asia Indian air defense is one of the best and any point defense air craft like LCA will be hard to handle even if u pit your Super Sukhois against it, because the support it will have available to it in a battle, LCA will not fight alone that makes it very difficult adversary to handle.

But if the same LCA is pitted against JF-17 over Pakistani skies then JF-17 will eat it because it will be playing on its home ground with all available support and LCA alone will be not match for it.

Conclusion: in today's advance net centric warfare environment wars / battles will not be won on single systems, and single high end system can be beaten by use of many moderate systems due to net centric warfare, even 5th gen stealth planes will not be used as single system in any future wars.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> lol.. don take me wrong.. but i love the sarcasm here...
> 
> LCA as point defense - True
> Hard to handle by other birds - Not true
> F35 point - Lol No F 35 will be in South East Asia unless sumthn comes up in a package deal with indian Navy IAC2 or later
> 
> The final Product OF LCA is not yet out.. so hold ur horses,.. its a beauty no doubt but making it a proper beast will require some more time.. yet we all have confidence that when the true potential is revealed even in MK1 or later planned MK2, we all will be happy to accept the finished product along with other benefits like solidifying the foundation of our nascent aircraft manufacturing industry and allied services..



That only depends on what IAF really needs it for. It is the Mig 21 replacement and we know IAF has active passive BVR tactics which included Bisons and MKIs. If we think about the same tactics with LCA MK1, we will see that it already is a huge boost for IAF. The RCS of LCA is far lower than of the Bison, the EW and especially the passive sensors are much better. With data links and BVR missiles added, it will further improve the role and the tactics of IAF in air defence.
LCA will also replace Migs in light CAS roles and again, the current MK1 offers more than enough capability right now with precision strike capability. Lets hope that Helina missiles and lighter Sudarshan LGBs with twin pylons, will be developed and added fast, to make LCA even more useful in that role.
With SPICE 2000 and a SPICE 250 quadpack on the centerline, it even could be used for bunker strikes, or SEAD, but since IAF have even better fighters to do these roles, that might not have much importance. An LCA with Astra, (hopefully a Maitri WVR missile), Helina and Sudarshan would offer more than enough capability and by far more than the Migs or even Mirage 2000 offered during Kargil war.

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## Gessler



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## Gessler

@sancho

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## Basel

@sancho: nice post but things have change a lot after Kargil war in South Asia.


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## Gessler



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## sancho

Basel said:


> @sancho: nice post but things have change a lot after Kargil war in South Asia.



And as I said, LCA offers MORE than those fighters offered back then!

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## Basel

@sancho: but still it will play same role of old Mig-21s have played since long.


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## sancho

Basel said:


> @sancho: but still it will play same role of old Mig-21s have played since long.



Yes and no. Yes, because that was the aim as the replacement of the Mig 21, no since it will be able to do the same roles that Mig 21s, 27, as well as the Mirage 2000s, or Jags did back then, but far more effective with modern techs and capabilities. From air defence, air policing, escorts to CAS roles, it already is able to do it.


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## Basel

@sancho: means it will played same role what JF-17 is meant for PAF, because it will replace A-5s, F-7s & Mirages.


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## Last Samuri

Great pictures guys thanks


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## rockstarIN

Gessler said:


> @sancho



There are four bombs each, is it 200 kg each? as that station's max capacity is 800 k.g.




@sancho


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## Sri

rockstarIN said:


> There are four bombs each, is it 200 kg each? as that station's max capacity is 800 k.g.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @sancho



To me they look like 250 lb bomb like
250 pound SAP Mk 5 Aerial Bomb | Australian War Memorial
so total 1000 lbs, I may be wrong

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## SOHEIL



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## li0nheart

rockstarIN said:


> There are four bombs each, is it 200 kg each? as that station's max capacity is 800 k.g.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @sancho




They are dummies, (IMO) used to test payload separation from pylon. You can see the outer (red) payload having cameras directed towards the bombs.

What I want to say is this configuration of 4 bombs may not be the final version and may be meant for testing purposes only.


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## Badbadman

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you, I knew that my limited skills will fall short of the expectations of some people like you who have much higher standards and a critical eye..
> 
> like I said earlier, my work is limited to my skills and limitations of game editor, its essentially a game platform.


Regardless, Nice work dude.


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## Srinivas

SOHEIL said:


>






Irfan Baloch said:


> here is my LCA model I made in Spore
> 
> enjoy  the effort by a Pakistani




Nice work mates you have some skills

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## sancho

Basel said:


> @sancho: means it will played same role what JF-17 is meant for PAF, because it will replace A-5s, F-7s & Mirages.



In interception and CAS of course, but JF 17 will have to do far more for PAF, while IAF has more capable fighters above LCA to take over SEAD or deep strikes, that JF 17s will do in PAF as well.



rockstarIN said:


> There are four bombs each, is it 200 kg each?



Practice bombs, which weighs far less:



> GENERAL :
> The Bomb practice A/C smoke and flash *25 lb* is an Airforce ammunition. It is used for practice purposes. It consists of two main parts namely a cast iron body and a tail cone filled with composition SR 807. After the detonation of the burster disrupts the tail cone and scatters the filling which on contact with the atmosphere produces a cloud of white smoke and brilliant white flash. The body accommodates a striker assembly and safely devices and is threaded at the rear to receive the tail cone which when the bomb is assembled is locked in position by a set screw. A suspension lug is screwed into the body.
> 
> PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
> Total Length 561.34 mm approx.
> *Total mass of Ammn. 11.5 kgs approx.*
> Composition S.R. 807% 11 oz approx.



Ordnance Factory Board

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## Irfan Baloch

Srinivas said:


> Nice work mates you have some skills


thanks for your kind words, I like the plane because its unique and adapts the delta design which I personally like . this video is non-political like my earlier JF-17 video is and celebrating the craftsmanship of our subcontinent people.

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## Basel

> In interception and CAS of course, but JF 17 will have to do far more for PAF, while IAF has more capable fighters above LCA to take over SEAD or deep strikes, that JF 17s will do in PAF as well.



True, but PAF may not sent JF-17s in Indian air space immediately after war broke, they may use standoff weapons for SEAD initially from JF-17s, PAF is giving much importance to standoff weapons which will allow PAF strike force to hit far and try to avoid interception from air and ground.


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## Joe Shearer

Jayanta said:


> Why would somebody like to invade Pakistan??



??

The man gave you the answer: to capture all those J-10Bs, Typhoons, F-16s, F-14s, Su-30s (sic) and MiG-29s. Not to mention Superboy.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you, I knew that my limited skills will fall short of the expectations of some people like you who have much higher standards and a critical eye..
> 
> like I said earlier, my work is limited to my skills and limitations of game editor, its essentially a game platform.



Very good model. Appreciated.

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## BATMAN

Jayanta said:


> Why would somebody like to invade Pakistan??



GAME CHANGER
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/Chengdu_Aerospace.pdf


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## Superboy

What is the radar of Tejas? Don't tell me it's just called Multi Mode Radar 

PS, I forgot to mention Jordanian F-16, Malaysian Super Hornets, Algerian MiG-29, Taliban Stingers.


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## SOHEIL

Superboy said:


> If India invades Pakistan, it won't be just JF-17 that InAF would have to deal with. It also has to deal with Chinese J-10B, possibly PAF J-10B, Saudi Typhoons, Turkish F-16, Iranian F-14, UAE F-16, Iraqi F-16, Malaysian and Indonesian Su-30, Egyptian F-16, Syrian MiG-29 etc. etc. etc.

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## JAT BALWAN

Superboy said:


> What is the radar of Tejas? Don't tell me it's just called Multi Mode Radar
> 
> PS, I forgot to mention Jordanian F-16, Malaysian Super Hornets, Algerian MiG-29, Taliban Stingers.



Bhai bachpan se hi majaakiya ho ya PDF main aakar hi apba hunar nikhar rahe ho...??

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## sathya

France May not want a repeat of Brazil tender, in INDIA


Tejas may complete FOC before MMRCA deal is signed


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## Capt.Popeye

Superboy said:


> What is the radar of Tejas? Don't tell me it's just called Multi Mode Radar
> 
> PS, I forgot to mention Jordanian F-16, Malaysian Super Hornets, Algerian MiG-29, Taliban Stingers.


 
Hell; BOY!!!
You even forgot the _*Martians in their Flying Saucers* _and the _*Chinqings in their Flying Mandarins. *_

_Boy; do you think that you'll even finally grow in to a Man? _

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## kurup

HAL pegs the price of Tejas MK1 at Rs. 162 crore or $26 million a fighter .

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard

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## rockstarIN

It will add more chances for an export.


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## Jayanta

kurup said:


> HAL pegs the price of Tejas MK1 at Rs. 162 crore or $26 million a fighter .
> 
> HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard



The price of Tejas is expected to further go down as Serial Productions takes place.


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> The price of Tejas is expected to further go down as Serial Productions takes place.



Depends on the numbers of orders of MK1, with no further orders above the 40 for IAF and with the modifcations that are expected for MK2, I don't see it getting lower, rather then getting higher.


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## Superboy

How much would it cost if fitted with Israeli Elta 2032 radar?


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## sancho

Superboy said:


> How much would it cost if fitted with Israeli Elta 2032 radar?



Who says the cost doesn't include the EL 2032? Since the LRDE MMR is not ready, it MK1 will most likely use the Israeli radar, with some parts replaced with Indian once, similar to the BARS in MKI.


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## Abingdonboy



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## li0nheart

Abingdonboy said:


>



Pic relevant to topic?

EDIT: Never mind, saw your other thread...


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## Robinhood Pandey

li0nheart said:


> *Pic relevant to topic*?
> 
> EDIT: Never mind, saw your other thread...


 zoom in bro, and u will see an unfinished tejas being loaded on the aircraft

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## Bullet500

Abingdonboy said:


>



Mommy aircraft giving birth to baby aircraft...:p


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## ejaz007

*Latest Updates:

Jan 12/14: Budgets.* India’s defense budget will drop by INR 78 billion in 2013-14, after a drop of INR 100 billion in 2012-13. A more sluggish economy, and a weakened ruling Congress Party that’s trying to shore up its electoral base, are the issues. At the same time, India is negotiating the MMRCA deal for 126 Rafales, the FGFA deal with Russia for their future high-end stealth fighter, the Project 75i submarine buy that’s becoming an emergency, and attack and heavy-lift helicopter buys with Boeing. They also want to add to their fleet of P-8i long-range maritime patrol planes, buy AWACS early warning jets as a priority, and improve their aerial tanker fleet as a priority. Among other priorities.

That explains why the MoD asked for INR 400 billion more, instead of 78 billion less. Unless this gap changes, however, future Tejas production will find itself caught in an environment where everything can’t be funded, but big air force commitments have already been made. Sources: Times of India, “Despite budget cut, defence ministry continues with modernization drive”.

*Jan 11/14: Pricing.* Sources tell India’s Business Standard that HAL has quoted the Ministry a price of INR 1.62 billion (about $26.5 million) per plane for the first 20 Tejas Mk.I fighters. The Ministry wants to know why its 40% higher than the INR 1.165 billion quoted in 2006, and HAL has a good answer. One, inflation over the past 8 years takes a tool. Two, the Indian rupee is sinking, while 45% of the plane’s cost involves imported parts. Three, it’s still about half the price of a Mirage 2000 upgrade (EUR 1.4 billion, now INR 118.3 billion + INR 2.02 billion to HAL/ 49 jets = INR 2.8 billion/ $45.8 million per), which is even more dependent on currency values.

HAL sees eventual purchases of 40 Mk.Is, 84 Mk.IIs, 11 naval trainers, and 46 naval variants (TL: 181), and recent government declaration have used 200 aircraft as a possible figure. Now that Tejas is on surer ground, and the opportunity is clearer, HAL is trying to control costs using longer-term commitments of its own. Step one reportedly involves Long Time Business Agreements (LTBAs) of 3-5 years and 40-50 aircraft sets with key sub-contractors, including clauses that let it vary annual production rates to some extent, a feature also seen in many of the US military’s multi-year purchase agreements. Long lead time components have been identified, and industrial improvements are underway. Practices like having 5-axis CNC machines on hand, and using computerized drilling of 8,000 holes or so in the composite wing skin, are more or less assumed in North America. They’re a step forward for HAL, which needs that kind of long-term investment in its industrial capacity.

Will that investment, and higher production, improve costs enough? Pakistan’s JF-17, which has already delivered 50 planes, is reportedly priced around $23-24 million per plane. If the Tejas Mk.II comes in around $30 million in current dollars, pointing to composite construction and supposedly better avionics isn’t going to cut it in export competitions as a reason for the 25% price difference. An AESA radar might, depending on what Pakistan does for the coming JF-17 Block II, and how much it costs. Sources: Business Standard, “HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore”.

*Dec 20/13: IOC-2.* the LCA program achieves Initial Operational Clearance II. This is closer to the F-35′s IOC than traditional American IOC designations: limited capabilities with some initial weapons, and more testing required, but regular air force pilots can now fly it. Sources: Economic Times of India, “Indigenous fighter aircraft LCA-Tejas gets Initial Operational Clearance”.

*Dec 19/13: What’s next?* Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification Director-General Dr K Tamil Mani explains what’s next for Tejas, whose remaining testing and certification needs show the IOC-2 designation’s limits. The fighter needs to pass 6 milestones in the next 15 months, on the way to G=Final Operational Clearance. They include:

Integrating the Russian GSH 23mm gun, which also requires certifying the surrounding LRU electronics boxes for much higher vibration levels.
Integration of additional weapons, incl. Python 4/5 short-range air-to-air missiles and Derby medium range air-to-air missiles.
Integrating Cobham’s air refueling probe.
Increasing sustained Angle of Attack parameters from 22 – 24 degrees.
Improved braking system with higher heat tolerance. They might even need to add fans, as they did for some of their MiGs.
Change the nosecone from composite materials to a quartz-based material, in order to remove the current 45-50 km limit on the radar and bring it to its design level of 80+ km.

LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help

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## Kompromat

Do we know the per unit cost in dollar terms now?


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## rockstarIN

Aeronaut said:


> Do we know the per unit cost in dollar terms now?


“HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore”.

As per today's exchange rate (61.47) per unit cost will be $26.35 million!!


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## Basel

@Gessler : Typical Indian troll thinking, like all other Indians keep repeating about 1971 & about having exercise with Singapore Air Force F-16s and thinking that PAF can't handle MKIs because they just practice with PLAAF, that is childish thinking. PAF is a professional air force and they know who they will be facing. In 1971 it was not your victory it was our leaders and administration who won, sadly they want to leave East Pakistan and that they did, that was the behavior back then with East Pakistan of West Pakistan Establishment, India just used that opportunity.

Indians have to come out of mentality that Pakistan don't have stuff to handle India, even if today war broke out PA can bring hell to IA's strike force, because we don't underestimate our enemy, we some times overestimate it so we can generate better capability.

For those Indians who think Israel is their best friend check this link, your best friend is selling systems to Pakistan. 

Who does Israel sell arms to? The Defense Ministry won't tell - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz


----------



## h0mer

Basel said:


> In 1971 it was not your victory it was our leaders and administration who won, sadly they want to leave East Pakistan and that they did, that was the behavior back then with East Pakistan of West Pakistan Establishment, India just used that opportunity.



Sounds like something my four year old would say after he loses an argument... "I didn't want it anyways..." 
(basically i'm saying, your argument is childish.)



Basel said:


> even if today war broke out PA can bring hell to IA's strike force, because we don't underestimate our enemy



Highly unlikely, even from my perspective, i'd say the Indians would outclass the Pakistanis in almost every aspect as far as a modern military confrontation is concerned.

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## sancho

Guys, back to LCA please!

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## Agent_47

A Tejas being loaded on to C-17!


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> A Tejas being loaded on to C-17!




Abingdonboy was faster :

HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 586

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> Abingdonboy was faster :
> 
> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 586

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## Basel

kaykay said:


> And what if Israel has already shared weaknesses of those equipments given to Pakistan to India? I am sure we can trust Israel more than you do.



Before trusting jews read history they are no ones friend.


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## kaykay

Basel said:


> Before trusting jews read history they are no ones friend.


well they have helped us in Karrgil and then in Kashmir insurgency. So leave that trust thing on us. And anyway here you are trusting them and their weapons given to you more than us.


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## Basel

kaykay said:


> well they have helped us in Karrgil and then in Kashmir insurgency. So leave that trust thing on us. And anyway here you are trusting them and their weapons given to you than more than us.



Pakistan will not buy front line fighting systems from them, SIGINT & ELINT capability may be priority.


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## kaykay

Basel said:


> Pakistan will not buy front line fighting systems from them, SIGINT & ELINT capability may be priority.


and thats perfectly okay for India. And no where close to what things they provide to India and yes we will/already know the limitations of those equipments.


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## Kompromat

rockstarIN said:


> “HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore”.
> 
> As per today's exchange rate (61.47) per unit cost will be $26.35 million!!



That ofcourse would be without the weapons.


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## Dazzler

kaykay said:


> and thats perfectly okay for India. And no where close to what things they provide to India and yes we will/already know the limitations of those equipments.





Bit offtopic but israel had deep military relaitons with china till Yanks forced them, many of chinese radar/ AWACS/ ew/ weapon systems had israeli technologies, they sell to whom they like without Indian consent.

Haaretz news created a stir even in Pakistan, ISPR had to clarify the situation.



> “According to the government report, Israel has exported security equipment over the past five years to Pakistan and four Arab countries. The report, which deals with British government permits for arms and security equipment exports, says that in addition to Pakistan, Israel has exported such equipment to Egypt, Algeria, the United Arab Emirates and Morocco,” it said.
> 
> A BIS spokesperson said there was no specific report on Israeli export of British security equipment to Pakistan, but it routinely released data on arms exports, including details of whether the arms were intended to be passed on to a third country. The _Haaretz_ claim appeared to have been based on data indicating that British components sold to Israel eventually found their way to Pakistan. These included radar systems and parts for fighter jets.
> 
> Britain, however, refused licences for systems that Israel intended to export to India, Russia, Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan.
> 
> According to _Haaretz_, from January 2008 to December 2012, British authorities processed hundreds of Israeli applications to purchase military items for use by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), or to go into systems exported to third countries.
> 
> Among the countries to which Israel exported equipment were several with which it did not have diplomatic relations. Besides Pakistan, its clients included Egypt, Algeria, the United Arab Emirates, and Morocco.
> 
> In 2011, Israel sought to purchase British components to export radar systems to Pakistan. Other items included electronic warfare systems, Head-up Cockpit Displays parts for fighter jets and aircraft engines, optic target acquisition systems, components of training aircraft, and military electronic systems.
> 
> In 2010, it applied for permits to export to Pakistan electronic warfare systems containing British components.


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## Gessler

Basel said:


> If Israel gives all what India has then India will not be able to fight a war with Pakistan because most electronics used by IAF, IA & IN are Israeli and Pakistan's first requirement will be how to neutralize them.



You are too late for that because India is quickly running out of interest in most Israeli stuff for our
future generation fighters. Russia & France will be our principle suppliers in this regard. Russia & France
have gotten pretty much ahead of Israel thanks to their fighter programs. They are developing
stuff like GaN technology for AESA radars and goodies like active cancellation tech for Rafale. Israel
cannot offer anything comparable to them, so the next bunch of years are going to see a steady
decline in Israeli stuff in Indian aircraft.

We are developing our own AWACS as well, so no dependence solely on Israel for that either.

Even Tejas Mk-2 is getting very few Israeli stuff. most of it will be European actually.

Earlier, we used to depend on Israel for getting satellite intel & coordinates input, now there is
no need for that either.

So, as I said, even if Israel gives you everything it has given to India, it won't change the outcome
of the war because India would have moved on to much better stuff than what Israel can give
us. Oops!



Basel said:


> The problem with India is that it want to be able to handle China in terms of military and China will not let it happen and Pakistan will got all support due to that reason.



 Sure, whatever satisfies your ego.



> They will not sold you their front line stuff, jews are the most clever people on earth, they can back stab anyone for their greater good.



No problem, in a few years time India will be throwing away most of the Israeli stuff because better indigenous,
Russian or European stuff is being brought to the table. This is the advantage of not depending on a sole
supplier even when you have to import - we always have a wide choice.


----------



## kaykay

Dazzler said:


> Bit offtopic but israel had deep military relaitons with china till Yanks forced them, many of chinese radar/ AWACS/ ew/ weapon systems had israeli technologies, they sell to whom they like without Indian consent.
> 
> Haaretz news created a stir even in Pakistan, ISPR had to clarify the situation.


Sir Question is not about what they sell, i mean ofcourse they sell things to even Pakistan(not very high end techs) but all I was saying that we already/will know the drawbacks and limitations of those things through Israelis.


----------



## rockstarIN

Aeronaut said:


> That ofcourse would be without the weapons.




Isn't all fighter jet's price quoted without weapon package?

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## Kompromat

rockstarIN said:


> Isn't all fighter jet's price quoted without weapon package?



Yes, this must be per unit cost.


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## Last Samuri

Good point Rockstar

On thios basis
we have

JF17 block 1 @ $15m
JF17 block 2 @ $23-$25m
LCA tejas mk1 @ $26m
J10 A @ $35M
J10 B @ $45M


potential Bang for buck and the technology in the tejas being western @ $26m is a very good price

Tejas @ $26m buys you this

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## rockstarIN

Last Samuri said:


> Good point Rockstar
> 
> On thios basis
> we have
> 
> JF17 block 1 @ $15m
> JF17 block 2 @ $23-$25m
> LCA tejas mk1 @ $26m
> J10 A @ $35M
> J10 B @ $45M
> 
> 
> potential Bang for buck and the technology in the tejas being western @ $26m is a very good price
> 
> Tejas @ $26m buys you this




But the article mentioned the first 20 MK1 planes of IOC-2 standard @162 crore.

Anyways, the other 20 ordered by IAF at FOC standard (means within this configuration + with gun, BVR etc) should be the same price without weapon system.


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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL



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## kaykay

@SOHEIL Thanks for the pics mate but just deleted the second pic as it has a water mark of another forum and mods may give you infraction for that as pics/link from that forum is not allowed here I think. Thanks again.

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## SOHEIL

kaykay said:


> @SOHEIL Thanks for the pics mate but just deleted the second pic as it has a water mark of another forum and mods may give you infraction for that as pics/link from that forum is not allowed here I think. Thanks again.

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## kurup

kaykay said:


> @SOHEIL Thanks for the pics mate but just deleted the second pic as it has a water mark of another forum and mods may give you infraction for that as pics/link from that forum is not allowed here I think. Thanks again.



I think that rule has been relaxed . Maybe @WebMaster can explain .


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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> I think that rule has been relaxed . Maybe @WebMaster can explain .



Too late ... picture deleted ...

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## kaykay

kurup said:


> I think that rule has been relaxed . Maybe @WebMaster can explain .


I dont know about present but I remember few months back someone posted pics from that forum and pics were deleted by mods and probably he got infraction too. He-man was the member I guess, not sure though.

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


>



^^^^ wrong weapons layout . The placement of points 7 and L are wrong .

This the correct layout .

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## AMCA

Is anyone aware of the HF designation LCA Tejas was supposed to get??


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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> ^^^^ wrong weapons layout . The placement of points 7 and L are wrong .
> 
> This the correct layout .



Sorry

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Sorry



Don't repeat this .....

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> Don't repeat this .....

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## Last Samuri



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## SrNair

Basel said:


> Some countries may send help but your post here will only invite trolls as Indian will never believe that.



the countries he mentioned all are muslim countries except China.Sorry mate all Arab countries are not like Pakistan


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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


>






.........

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## SrNair

kingdurgaking said:


> Kargil was a full fledge war... it started as anit-insurgency but ended as war , it is a typical war... and we did cut their life-line



Kargil is not a full fledged war,We only use 3 aircrafts and you call it full fledged war.It is just a small operation of IA.If you know about full fledged war then check 1971


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## SrNair

Basel said:


> @Gessler : Typical Indian troll thinking, like all other Indians keep repeating about 1971 & about having exercise with Singapore Air Force F-16s and thinking that PAF can't handle MKIs because they just practice with PLAAF, that is childish thinking. PAF is a professional air force and they know who they will be facing. In 1971 it was not your victory it was our leaders and administration who won, sadly they want to leave East Pakistan and that they did, that was the behavior back then with East Pakistan of West Pakistan Establishment, India just used that opportunity.
> 
> Indians have to come out of mentality that Pakistan don't have stuff to handle India, even if today war broke out PA can bring hell to IA's strike force, because we don't underestimate our enemy, we some times overestimate it so we can generate better capability.
> 
> For those Indians who think Israel is their best friend check this link, your best friend is selling systems to Pakistan.
> 
> Who does Israel sell arms to? The Defense Ministry won't tell - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz



Go and read Wikileaks cables.US give you 18 modern F-16 .Do you know why?If they have that fighters Pakistan can hold for a single day against India.Otherwise PAF will wiped out within hours and Pak military forces soon become a taliban type army and may cause nuclear war.

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## sancho

kurup said:


> ^^^^ wrong weapons layout . The placement of points 7 and L are wrong .



It's not wrong, though since the load configs are correct.

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## SOHEIL

sancho said:


> It's not wrong, though since the load configs are correct.



@kurup

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## Jayanta

Basel said:


> @Gessler : Typical Indian troll thinking, like all other Indians keep repeating about 1971 & about having exercise with Singapore Air Force F-16s and thinking that PAF can't handle MKIs because they just practice with PLAAF, that is childish thinking. PAF is a professional air force and they know who they will be facing. In 1971 it was not your victory it was our leaders and administration who won, sadly they want to leave East Pakistan and that they did, that was the behavior back then with East Pakistan of West Pakistan Establishment, India just used that opportunity.
> 
> Indians have to come out of mentality that Pakistan don't have stuff to handle India, even if today war broke out PA can bring hell to IA's strike force, because we don't underestimate our enemy, we some times overestimate it so we can generate better capability.
> 
> For those Indians who think Israel is their best friend check this link, your best friend is selling systems to Pakistan.
> 
> Who does Israel sell arms to? The Defense Ministry won't tell - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

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## Basel

Gessler said:


> You are too late for that because India is quickly running out of interest in most Israeli stuff for our
> future generation fighters. Russia & France will be our principle suppliers in this regard. Russia & France
> have gotten pretty much ahead of Israel thanks to their fighter programs. They are developing
> stuff like GaN technology for AESA radars and goodies like active cancellation tech for Rafale. Israel
> cannot offer anything comparable to them, so the next bunch of years are going to see a steady
> decline in Israeli stuff in Indian aircraft.
> We are developing our own AWACS as well, so no dependence solely on Israel for that either.
> Even Tejas Mk-2 is getting very few Israeli stuff. most of it will be European actually.
> Earlier, we used to depend on Israel for getting satellite intel & coordinates input, now there is
> no need for that either.
> So, as I said, even if Israel gives you everything it has given to India, it won't change the outcome
> of the war because India would have moved on to much better stuff than what Israel can give
> us. Oops!



As I have said before SIGINT & ELINT may be good for now from Israel as majority of your EW systems till 2020 will be Israeli based radar and air defense, if Israel provide us countermeasure then your IN will be in deep trouble because their air defense will be weakened due to that and PN will be able to penetrate your INs air defense much easily, IAF is also using much of Israeli EW systems and weapons too, so stop day dreaming that Israel's role is small in your defense now, its still quite big.



Gessler said:


> Sure, whatever satisfies your ego.



Its not my ego its Indian big ego which got hurt with every development in China & Pakistan.


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## Basel

sreekumar said:


> the countries he mentioned all are muslim countries except China.Sorry mate all Arab countries are not like Pakistan



Buddy Arabs will support us if not openly then secretly, but China & Turkey will play major role and it will be *** hurting for India as both now have good defense industry to offer state of the art products.



sreekumar said:


> Go and read Wikileaks cables.US give you 18 modern F-16 .Do you know why?If they have that fighters Pakistan can hold for a single day against India.Otherwise PAF will wiped out within hours and Pak military forces soon become a taliban type army and may cause nuclear war.



Pakistan have come ahead of that time long ago its 2014 not 2007. PAF have plenty of stuff available now even just from China to handle IAF. 

When LCA will be inducted in IAF??


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## Chronos

Basel said:


> Buddy Arabs will support us if not openly then secretly, but China & Turkey will play major role and it will be *** hurting for India as both now have good defense industry to offer state of the art products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When LCA will be inducted in IAF??



Oh please. I would be inclined to support Pakistanis more if they weren't full of it like the Indians. The fact of the matter is, India and Pakistan still rank amongst African countries in terms of education, health etc.

You have to ask yourself, why is a country like Sri Lanka far ahead of India and Pakistan in every indicator except Military? I will tell you why. Because their society is more liberal than us. They appear to be more practical.

I would rather India have high social indicators rather than have shiny new toys like this.

@Basel I can understand why Pakistanis would feel patronised. The Indian posters here do give off that vibe.

That being said, the Pakistani posters have chipped away at my sense of sympathy for them for being so full of it.

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## kbd-raaf

Ravi Nair said:


> Oh please. I would be inclined to support Pakistanis more if they weren't full of it like the Indians. The fact of the matter is, India and Pakistan still rank amongst African countries in terms of education, health etc.
> 
> You have to ask yourself, why is a country like Sri Lanka far ahead of India and Pakistan in every indicator except Military? I will tell you why. Because their society is more liberal than us. They appear to be more practical.
> 
> I would rather India have high social indicators rather than have shiny new toys like this.
> 
> @Basel I can understand why Pakistanis would feel patronised. The Indian posters here do give off that vibe.
> 
> That being said, the Pakistani posters have chipped away at my sense of sympathy for them for being so full of it.



Sri Lanka has a disproportionate sized military for their population 

India spends among the least on its military as a portion of revenue (12%), Pakistan spends upwards of 25%.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> It's not wrong, though since the load configs are correct.



Sirji my point was that position of points 7 and L are wrong .

Also do you have any picture of Tejas flying with load on point 7 ??



SOHEIL said:


> @kurup


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## Gessler

Basel said:


> As I have said before SIGINT & ELINT may be good for now from Israel as majority of your EW systems till 2020 will be Israeli based radar and air defense, if Israel provide us countermeasure then your IN will be in deep trouble because their air defense will be weakened due to that and PN will be able to penetrate your INs air defense much easily, IAF is also using much of Israeli EW systems and weapons too, so stop day dreaming that Israel's role is small in your defense now, its still quite big.



Typical four-year old thinking. You seem to believe each radar & system has a code upon typing which on your
keyboard will render enemy's systems useless.

Keep dreaming.



> Its not my ego its Indian big ego which got hurt with every development in China & Pakistan.



Why should our ego be hurt when we are doing similar things ourselves?



Basel said:


> Buddy Arabs will support us if not openly then secretly, but China & Turkey will play major role and it will be *** hurting for India as both now have good defense industry to offer state of the art products.



Yes, I guess Arabs will support you because without their support you are a lost case scenario. Only China has a
true defence industry. Turkey's stuff is re-labelled European/US stuff that is still bound by many treaties
& clauses which will limit their uses. Look at how much trouble there is being faced in T-129 attack
helicopter supply to Pak because that chopper has US engine.



> Pakistan have come ahead of that time long ago its 2014 not 2007. PAF have plenty of stuff available now even just from China to handle IAF.



You couldn't stop IAF from achiving it's objectives even if whole Arab world and even US/UK supported you with
top-of-the-line US equipment like Lockheed F-104 Starfighter.

What do you hope to achieve now with junk-17 and J-10 which lost to MiG-29 in Myanmar tender?



> When LCA will be inducted in IAF??



I don't think we really need LCA to beat PAF, do we?


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## duhastmish

*Why do armchair warriors try to downplay Pakistan airforce oh we don't need su 30 or Rafael or lca for Pakistan. If need arise how do u plan to fight with -profanity , stone pelting and sticks?*


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## Gessler

duhastmish said:


> *Why do armchair warriors try to downplay Pakistan airforce oh we don't need su 30 or Rafael or lca for Pakistan. If need arise how do u plan to fight with -profanity , stone pelting and sticks?*



Who said we don't need Su-30 to fight Pakistan?


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## duhastmish

Gessler said:


> Who said we don't need Su-30 to fight Pakistan?


Please read threads. Su 30 is for china as demonstrated by most members.


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## Gessler

duhastmish said:


> Please read threads. Su 30 is for china as demonstrated by most members.



Mate, our aircraft don't have names of the enemies written on them. Whatever enemy is attacking us, Su-30MKI,
being the IAF's backbone, will automatically be deployed against that enemy.


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## kaykay

duhastmish said:


> Please read threads. Su 30 is for china as demonstrated by most members.


Well MKIs are stationed along both borders so who so ever is saying that is wrong. But yes AFAIK Rafales will be mainly deployed along chinese borders.


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## Chronos

kbd-raaf said:


> Sri Lanka has a disproportionate sized military for their population
> 
> India spends among the least on its military as a portion of revenue (12%), Pakistan spends upwards of 25%.



@kbd-raaf a very prescient point made.

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## trident2010

So back to the thread topic ... any new updates regarding Tejas Mk2 development?

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## Bullet500

Hi Guys...I have a question and it may sound stupid ...

If the air ducts of an aircraft are moved above the wings would that have any effect on the radar cross-section of the aircraft?

Note: I am an electronics engineer and have no experience on radars.


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Sirji my point was that position of points 7 and L are wrong .
> 
> Also do you have any picture of Tejas flying with load on point 7 ??



The line for the point 7 is just moved a bit, but still indicates the centerline station and as said, the load examples (which is the important part) is the same as in your pic. 

No, there are only pics with a centerline fuel tank on the ground so far, which indicates that this station is not cleared yet.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> The line for the point 7 is just moved a bit, but still indicates the centerline station and as said, the load examples (which is the important part) is the same as in your pic.
> 
> No, there are only pics with a centerline fuel tank on the ground so far, which indicates that *this station is not cleared yet*.



Is that a serious matter that they have not cleared it yet ??

Any idea why it is not cleared ??


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Is that a serious matter that they have not cleared it yet ??
> 
> Any idea why it is not cleared ??



I think payload limitations could be an issue, not to mention the drag problems LCA has, so adding another fuel tank at the moment might not be useful. Besides that there are not many weapons planned for that station so far, 1000 or 2000lb Sudarshan LGBs might be added in future, or anti ship weapons, but according to ADA officials we heared that only Derby will be added till FOC.

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## SrNair

Basel said:


> Buddy Arabs will support us if not openly then secretly, but China & Turkey will play major role and it will be *** hurting for India as both now have good defense industry to offer state of the art products.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan have come ahead of that time long ago its 2014 not 2007. PAF have plenty of stuff available now even just from China to handle IAF.
> 
> When LCA will be inducted in IAF??



Ok after that? Ha ....Ha china and it state of art products .After all you must know one thing.We dont need a war with Pakistan.It is not because of your so called Pakistan mighty Army.Trade relation between India and China is 75billion$ and it is considerably favour to chinese with 31billion$.Do you know why GoI allow that?We know China will not opened their door for our IT and pharmacuetical
Our GoI allow that because we can use it in a scenario which you talked out.We can cut down the cheap consumer good from China.In future this 31 billion may become 40 or more.Now Chinese lost that decisive huge surplus and cost a lot of bleeding to Chinese economy.We know and the whole world know Pakistan cant offer china some thing like that.Turkey help is not a problem for us .Their help will not reverse the fate of Pakistan.
2007 to 2014 these simple years is some game changer for Pakistan.I dont think so.WoT and regular terror strike bleed your economy ,and regular bail out of IMF happen there.

LCA will be inducted between 2014 end and 2015 mid.You know LCA is our own designed fighter .That simple fighter gave us enough experience .we start aerospace industrial journey with LCA.Can handle enough challenges but we have SU-30MKI etc for external challenge.


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## Basel

Ravi Nair said:


> Oh please. I would be inclined to support Pakistanis more if they weren't full of it like the Indians. The fact of the matter is, India and Pakistan still rank amongst African countries in terms of education, health etc.
> You have to ask yourself, why is a country like Sri Lanka far ahead of India and Pakistan in every indicator except Military? I will tell you why. Because their society is more liberal than us. They appear to be more practical.
> I would rather India have high social indicators rather than have shiny new toys like this.
> @Basel I can understand why Pakistanis would feel patronised. The Indian posters here do give off that vibe.
> That being said, the Pakistani posters have chipped away at my sense of sympathy for them for being so full of it.



Nice post thanks, PDF is a defense forum and if u go through all of my posts u will know that I have never posted hate and other stupid biased stuff, I have posted what I know and tried to be neutral and unbiased because one can only see clear and complete picture of any situation when he/she is unbiased. I have always praised what India have achieved and neutrally given my opinion what they can achieve although it is not in favor of Pakistan as per ground realities but if we start ignoring the facts then it will be us who will suffer.



Gessler said:


> Typical four-year old thinking. You seem to believe each radar & system has a code upon typing which on your
> keyboard will render enemy's systems useless.
> Keep dreaming.



Your post suggest you are the kid here, do u remember what happened in first gulf war? how and why Allied forces were able to overcome Iraqi air defense? go read about importance & role of SIGINT & ELINT.



Gessler said:


> Yes, I guess Arabs will support you because without their support you are a lost case scenario. Only China has a
> true defence industry. Turkey's stuff is re-labelled European/US stuff that is still bound by many treaties
> & clauses which will limit their uses. Look at how much trouble there is being faced in T-129 attack
> helicopter supply to Pak because that chopper has US engine.



There are many systems which are totally made by Turkey and you forgot one thing it was Turkey who in every Indo-Pak war have provided critical technical assistance, one example of that is our Cobra gunships which were air born due to parts provided by Turkey, and in any future war it will be Turkish UMTAS & Cirit systems which will hurt IA's butt most in any engagement with PA.


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## Basel

sreekumar said:


> LCA will be inducted between 2014 end and 2015 mid.You know LCA is our own designed fighter .That simple fighter gave us enough experience .we start aerospace industrial journey with LCA.Can handle enough challenges but we have SU-30MKI etc for external challenge.



When it comes to Pakistani stuff we have junk and no one will support us in our bad times as Indian are champions of Pakistani relations with other world and its military systems, but when it comes to Indian systems like LCA it become totally indigenous and designed by India which is crap, Dassault have assisted and provided full technical support in designing the LCA as it is based on most loved European fighter of IAF.



sreekumar said:


> Ok after that? Ha ....Ha china and it state of art products .After all you must know one thing.We dont need a war with Pakistan.It is not because of your so called Pakistan mighty Army.Trade relation between India and China is 75billion$ and it is considerably favour to chinese with 31billion$.Do you know why GoI allow that?We know China will not opened their door for our IT and pharmacuetical
> Our GoI allow that because we can use it in a scenario which you talked out.We can cut down the cheap consumer good from China.In future this 31 billion may become 40 or more.Now Chinese lost that decisive huge surplus and cost a lot of bleeding to Chinese economy.We know and the whole world know Pakistan cant offer china some thing like that.Turkey help is not a problem for us .Their help will not reverse the fate of Pakistan.
> 2007 to 2014 these simple years is some game changer for Pakistan.I dont think so.WoT and regular terror strike bleed your economy ,and regular bail out of IMF happen there.



First of all keep living in dreams its not bad but day dreaming is not good habit, China is world's next upcoming superpower even US now acknowledge that and India is no way near it, this is something which hurts Indian ego, as for Turkey you just don't know their importance they are part of NATO and when Pakistan was under intensely sanctioned they came to help and due to them Pakistan was able to keep its armed forces as per western standards. Pakistan have plenty to offer to the world, but its our elites ruling class who are destroying this country.


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## Gessler

Basel said:


> Your post suggest you are the kid here, do u remember what happened in first gulf war? how and why Allied forces were able to overcome Iraqi air defense? go read about importance & role of SIGINT & ELINT.



India can carry out better ELINT & SIGNIT than Pakistan, thank you.



> There are many systems which are totally made by Turkey and you forgot one thing it was Turkey who in every Indo-Pak war have provided critical technical assistance, one example of that is our Cobra gunships which were air born due to parts provided by Turkey, and in any future war it will be Turkish UMTAS & Cirit systems which will hurt IA's butt most in any engagement with PA.



Hellfire ATGMs which were to be used by your AH-1s are now to be used by Indian AH-64 Apaches, killing
your tanks by the hundred. Even in other roles, our ATGMs are better than your's. Your old friend the
US is now selling us FGM-148 Javelin, the No.1 3rd-gen ATGM in the world.

Talk about allies and assistance...


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## Basel

Gessler said:


> Hellfire ATGMs which were to be used by your AH-1s are now to be used by Indian AH-64 Apaches, killing
> your tanks by the hundred. Even in other roles, our ATGMs are better than your's. Your old friend the
> US is now selling us FGM-148 Javelin, the No.1 3rd-gen ATGM in the world.
> Talk about allies and assistance...



They will be potent weapons but IAs thrust will be punished with UMTAS which have similar range as Hellfire and Pakistan plans to produce it locally because it can be used from several platforms and Cirit is another deadly system to block any IA's armored units advancing towards Pakistan and this is not Iraq or Afghanistan and you are not US so forgot that your Apaches will get dominance on PA, in some areas may be but not on all places because PA gives air defense much importance now and Anza MK-III can hit targets upto 15kms so your hellfires will not be as useful as you think, and PA don't use Hellfire missiles. Other than Anza PA also have other systems to handle Apaches on battlefield, although it will be though adversary to fight.


PA's air defense official website:
Air Defence

link of UMTAS:
UMTAS | Long Range Anti Tank Missile « RoketsanUMTAS | Long Range Anti Tank Missile « Roketsan

link of Cirit:
CİRİT | 2.75” Laser Guided Missile « Roketsan

link on Anza missiles:
Anza-III missile to end Indian

link of Hellfire:
AGM-114 Hellfire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Gessler said:


> India can carry out better ELINT & SIGNIT than Pakistan, thank you.



You don't understand or you don't want to, if Israel cooperate with Pakistan and provide details of radar systems like green pine and other air defense stuff which Indian chest thump on, will be use less because previous wars have shown that if a air defense manufacturer shares data and provide technical assistance how to defeat their system then the country having those systems will be in big trouble. So Indian SIGINT & ELINT will not be that much important in that case. I think you may understand my point.

Sorry for being off topic.


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## kingdurgaking

Basel said:


> You don't understand or you don't want to, if Israel cooperate with Pakistan and provide details of radar systems like green pine and other air defense stuff which Indian chest thump on, will be use less because previous wars have shown that if a air defense manufacturer shares data and provide technical assistance how to defeat their system then the country having those systems will be in big trouble. So Indian SIGINT & ELINT will not be that much important in that case. I think you may understand my point.
> 
> Sorry for being off topic.


Radar are the most easy installation to be taken using SEAD... thats why we have many satellites now ... and when GLONASS and IRNSS(very soon) is operational.. we will crush your force who is trying to attack us


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## kurup



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## Agent_47

Cockpit

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## rockstarIN

I did not see LCA flying with fuel tank under the belly, is there any photos?


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## kurup

rockstarIN said:


> I did not see LCA flying with fuel tank under the belly, is there any photos?



Nope , as explained by @sancho under belly point has not been cleared for flight untill now .

But there are pictures of Tejas on ground with fuel tank on the under belly pylon .

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## sancho

sreekumar said:


> @sancho ,can you help this guy?Is there is any base in his claim.



Dassault was design partner in the initial stages, but it's not based on Mirage at all.



rockstarIN said:


> I did not see LCA flying with fuel tank under the belly, is there any photos?



HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 591


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## Bratva

AnnoyingOrange said:


> So you don't know-... let me tell you....Pakistan owns 7 satallites... and India owns 73 as of today.....



In 2011. Pakistan SPD signed agreement with Chinese officials to use Beidou for strategic purposes. Google and you will get pics of DG SPD photo op with chinese

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## SQ8

Anybody else want to engage in off topic posts with the known Indian serial troller? If one man is acting like an arsehole from your country and derailing the thread with his parroting.. and a Pakistani is indulging the same.. the rest of you should report it instead of pushing it along.

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## cirr

The smog。。。speechless。。。after all，India is more or less still an argarian country。











The smog。。。speechless。。。after all，India is more or less still an argarian country。


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## Mujraparty

cirr said:


> The smog。。。speechless。。。after all，India is more or less still an argarian country。




its a fog u Dumb Chinese Idiot,they are practicing early morning ...






It's that time of the year again: Preparing for the Republic Day parade | Firstpost

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## shree835

cirr said:


> The smog。。。speechless。。。after all，India is more or less still an argarian country。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The smog。。。speechless。。。after all，India is more or less still an argarian country。



Mr. @Oscar ... Please fulfill your word...

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## Water Car Engineer



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## sudhir007

Flight update

2466th flight on 31 Dec, 2013
PV3: 381, PV5: 36
LSP1: 74, LSP2: 289, LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
*NP1: 6*

2469th flight on 07 Jan
PV3: 381, PV5: 36
LSP1: 74, *LSP2: 290,* LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
*NP1: 8*

2471th flight on 17 Jan
PV3: 381, PV5: 36
LSP1: 74, LSP2: 290, LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
*NP1: 10*

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## SR-91

sudhir007 said:


> Flight update
> 
> 2466th flight on 31 Dec, 2013
> PV3: 381, PV5: 36
> LSP1: 74, LSP2: 289, LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
> *NP1: 6*
> 
> 2469th flight on 07 Jan
> PV3: 381, PV5: 36
> LSP1: 74, *LSP2: 290,* LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
> *NP1: 8*
> 
> 2471th flight on 17 Jan
> PV3: 381, PV5: 36
> LSP1: 74, LSP2: 290, LSP3: 183, LSP4: 110, LSP5: 246, LSP7: 77, LSP8 : 62
> *NP1: 10*




WHAT!!!!!!

two flights in 10 days????


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## Guynextdoor2

Basel said:


> Before trusting jews read history they are no ones friend.



Jews history is one of toughness, strength and overcoming obstacles. They are fiercer warriors than the PA can ever be, take care of their people better than most islamic countries do, are the most educated community in the world and most respected.....you were saying?

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## 45'22'

are we still working on kaveri engine
and is there a lca mk3 under pipeline

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

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## fsayed

45'22' said:


> are we still working on kaveri engine
> and is there a lca mk3 under pipeline
> 
> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation


*Kaveri could power next LCA series: Antony Tribune News Service*

Bangalore, December 20
Defence Minister A K Antony today said the government had not yet given up its plan of powering the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the indigenously made Kaveri engine.

In a press conference here, which followed a function where LCA powered by American GE 404 engine was given the initial operational clearance (IOC) making it compliant with the requirements of the IAF for a battle ready aircraft, Antony said, “We have not abandoned the Kaveri engine project yet.”

The Defence Minister said while the LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2 varieties would be powered by the American GE 404 and GE 414 engines, respectively, Kaveri engine could be used to power the next LCA series.

He said the IAF would have two squadrons and four squadrons each of LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2, respectively. There would still be requirement of more planes as the IAF would eventually require about 200 planes to replace the entire MiG 21 fleet.

Kaveri engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab in Bangalore, was supposed to power the LCA initially. However, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), also a DRDO lab handling the LCA project, opted for the American GE engine as wait for Kaveri engine continued.

Antony, who spoke at length on the necessity of indigenisation in his speech in the IOC function, emphasised it once again. He talked about the aircraft carrier being built at Kochi, the next edition of the Arjun Battle Tank and Astra missiles being developed locally.

The success of the LCA project had shown the world that India was capable of making a modern aircraft, Antony said and added that the success would also give a big boost to the indigenisation efforts in the country.

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## sancho

Guynextdoor2 said:


> xxx



Stick to topic!



fsayed said:


> He said the IAF would have two squadrons and four squadrons each of LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2, respectively. There would still be requirement of more planes as the IAF would eventually require about 200 planes to replace the entire MiG 21 fleet.



40 x MK1
80 x Mk2
60 x LCA or Rafale optionals


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## Jayanta

Can't LCA have conformal fuel tanks.


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## Abingdonboy

fsayed said:


> *Kaveri could power next LCA series: Antony Tribune News Service*
> 
> The Defence Minister said while the LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2 varieties would be powered by the American GE 404 and GE 414 engines, respectively, Kaveri engine could be used to power *the next LCA series.*


So is Antony effectively confirming a LCA MK.3?


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## Sri

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Hit Tarmak007's FB page to join the live chat

Friends if you have got any queries regarding to lca then its a nice opportunity.


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## Black Widow

Jayanta said:


> Can't LCA have conformal fuel tanks.




Why on earth point defense fighter will carry CFT? Do u have any idea what point defense fighters are ?

Ok @Jayanta , Sorry for being rude.. 

The developers can develop if IAF ask for it. As per now the focus is to improve LCA on many front. CFT is definitely not in priority.

LCA Priority list:
1. MK-II
2. Increase AoA
3. eradicate issues found by IAF after induction
4. Radar, 
5. Avionics
6. Weapon integration
7. NLCA

Increasing range with CFT is not on list yet..

PS: all are my personal view, one may agree to disagree.



fsayed said:


> Kaveri could power next LCA series: Antony Tribune News Service
> Bangalore, December 20
> Defence Minister A K Antony today said the government had not yet given up its plan of powering the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the indigenously made Kaveri engine.




Kaveri has long way to go. Even we can make Kaveri now, integrating it will take many years. (Because of complexity involve in jet engines). No country can make and start using immidiately. Detailed/Extensive validation is needed before using it.

\


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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> So is Antony effectively confirming a LCA MK.3?


MLU. That was the plan till JV hit dead end.
Only thing it confirms is hope on Karveri JV is still alive.

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## Jayanta

Black Widow said:


> Why on earth point defense fighter will carry CFT? Do u have any idea what point defense fighters are ?
> 
> Ok @Jayanta , Sorry for being rude..
> 
> The developers can develop if IAF ask for it. As per now the focus is to improve LCA on many front. CFT is definitely not in priority.
> 
> LCA Priority list:
> 1. MK-II
> 2. Increase AoA
> 3. eradicate issues found by IAF after induction
> 4. Radar,
> 5. Avionics
> 6. Weapon integration
> 7. NLCA
> 
> Increasing range with CFT is not on list yet..
> 
> PS: all are my personal view, one may agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> Kaveri has long way to go. Even we can make Kaveri now, integrating it will take many years. (Because of complexity involve in jet engines). No country can make and start using immidiately. Detailed/Extensive validation is needed before using it.
> 
> \



I am speaking of a point defense fighter for India not Singapore. If you are aware of the vastness of India you will realize that the range of LCA is one its main drawback.


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> Can't LCA have conformal fuel tanks.



In theory it should be possible, but they have opted to increase the internal fuel, possibly to not add more drag. The question however remains, how much fuel increase is possible?



Abingdonboy said:


> So is Antony effectively confirming a LCA MK.3?



No, he is talking about Kaveri engine to be used in a follow LCA order, if there is a requirement beyond the 120 currently on order. That however can be normal MK2s, with the Kaveri engine instead of the GE 414, in fact at this stage I wouldn't be surprised if the follow order would be the first LCA with indigenous AESA and indigenous engine, so that alone could be a marketing reason for a follow LCA order, although IAF might prefer more Rafales or FGFAs.



Sergi said:


> MLU. That was the plan till JV hit dead end.
> Only thing it confirms is hope on Karveri JV is still alive.



Hope is not enough mate, we need to finish it no matter what! It doesn't matter if it is used on LCA or not, the importance of Kaveri lies in the technological gain for India and the long term benefit. Only DRDO makes it look like it has to be used on an Indian fighter and that is just plain nonsense.
It is crucial that we go on with the development, that we fix the problems and weakpoints, to have a base for any future engine development, since we all know that engine technology is the most difficult tech to get access to and if we ever want to be self reliant, finishing Kaveri engine development is much more important than finishing LCA development, or even AMCA!


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Why on earth point defense fighter will carry CFT? Do u have any idea what point defense fighters are ?



First of all, point defence is just one of LCAs roles and even here, CFTs / increased fuel is crucial!

- longer endurance in CAP
- lower RCS compared to carrying external fuel tanks
- lower drag compared to external fuel tanks (fixing one of LCAs problems)

and with the multi role capability it is aimed for:

- freeing hardpoints => currently LCA can't carry BVR missiles in strike role with just 7 weapon stations
- extended range => crucial for carrier operations of N-LCA
- freeing the centerline station for more capable recon pods (currently LCA might be limited to a centerline fuel tank and the reece lite pod at the pod station) 

So for fighters that have load limitations, that want to reduce RCS or simply improve flight performance compared to carrying external fuel tanks, increased fuel is a big advantage.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Hope is not enough mate, we need to finish it no matter what! It doesn't matter if it is used on LCA or not, the importance of Kaveri lies in the technological gain for India and the long term benefit. Only DRDO makes it look like it has to be used on an Indian fighter and that is just plain nonsense.
> It is crucial that we go on with the development, that we fix the problems and weakpoints, to have a base for any future engine development, since we all know that engine technology is the most difficult tech to get access to and if we ever want to be self reliant, finishing Kaveri engine development is much more important than finishing LCA development, or even AMCA!


And we dont have anything more than hope 
AFAIK the JV has already hit the rock-bed . So this comment from saint is a hope that its not.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> And we dont have anything more than hope
> AFAIK the JV has already hit the rock-bed . So this comment from saint is a hope that its not.



But we don't necessarily need a JV, it just depends on what the aim is. For LCA it was clear that we wouldn't be able to mature and upgrade the engine without help in such a short time, that's now off the table. The mid or long term plan now is, to add the engine to replace comparable foreign engines from already inducted fighters (GE 404 from LCA MK1, RD 33MK from Mig 29Ks hopefully), or as he hopes in follow on orders for LCAs. That however will happen only beyond 2020, because only then a replacement of the engines are needed, or a follow LCA order would be produced and till then, we still can and must improve it!
If DRDO however wants more PR again and wants to make a NG engine out of it, with SC and TVC capabilities, for an AMCA, we will face more problems and will need help again.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> *If DRDO however wants more PR agai*n and wants to make a NG engine out of it, with SC and TVC capabilities, for an AMCA, we will face more problems and will need help again.


And what do you think the odd of that NOT happening 
I agree with your point of view. Its just nobody concerned with the things seems to care about that.

About 29Ks , I was reluctant to write it last time you mentioned but one service engineer said its impossible as Russians wont allow us to do so. Why you believe we can


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## Abingdonboy

R-Day 2014 rehearsal: 









I see they haven't trusted the pilot with the LCA's HMDS helmet. Fair enough I guess considering these cost tens of thousands of dollars!

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## Jayanta

Black Widow said:


> Why on earth point defense fighter will carry CFT? Do u have any idea what point defense fighters are ?
> 
> Ok @Jayanta , Sorry for being rude..
> 
> The developers can develop if IAF ask for it. As per now the focus is to improve LCA on many front. CFT is definitely not in priority.
> 
> LCA Priority list:
> 1. MK-II
> 2. Increase AoA
> 3. eradicate issues found by IAF after induction
> 4. Radar,
> 5. Avionics
> 6. Weapon integration
> 7. NLCA
> 
> Increasing range with CFT is not on list yet..
> 
> PS: all are my personal view, one may agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kaveri has long way to go. Even we can make Kaveri now, integrating it will take many years. (Because of complexity involve in jet engines). No country can make and start using immidiately. Detailed/Extensive validation is needed before using it.
> 
> \





sancho said:


> First of all, point defence is just one of LCAs roles and even here, CFTs / increased fuel is crucial!
> 
> - longer endurance in CAP
> - lower RCS compared to carrying external fuel tanks
> - lower drag compared to external fuel tanks (fixing one of LCAs problems)
> 
> and with the multi role capability it is aimed for:
> 
> - freeing hardpoints => currently LCA can't carry BVR missiles in strike role with just 7 weapon stations
> - extended range => crucial for carrier operations of N-LCA
> - freeing the centerline station for more capable recon pods (currently LCA might be limited to a centerline fuel tank and the reece lite pod at the pod station)
> 
> So for fighters that have load limitations, that want to reduce RCS or simply improve flight performance compared to carrying external fuel tanks, increased fuel is a big advantage.



Firstly, @sancho has explained everything that I wanted to say...and secondly and most important...being humble and gentle to people shows the true strength of a gentleman. There are two ways of explaining things @sancho choose the correct way and my dear you choose the wrong.


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## 45'22'

this is what i found on br forum

Attended my first *Aero India *this Saturday. I won’t describe the difficulties in getting into the show, but once I did, it was quite alright. The highlight for me was the conversations I had with *Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar*, *Test Pilot *of the *Tejas program *and *Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj *(*Deputy Project Director*, *NLCA*). I was lucky to spot Mao sir alone and walked up to him, introduced myself and spoke of my association with BRF and then we had a conversation on the Tejas program for half an hour..he was incredibly frank, friendly, didn’t hold back any facts and only left when he got a call from someone..here are the salient points of our conversation, some of which we already know but am listing it anyway.

- Tejas LSP6 is the platform on which the spin chute will be integrated but it’s not here as yet. Will get done before FOC.
- Tejas Mk1 has achieved the IOC AoA limit of 22 deg and they will go a couple of degrees further in tests, when the spin chutes are integrated on LSP6. This is to ensure that they know that the airplane is safe even at higher alpha although the FBW will restrict it to the AoA limit for FOC for service pilots (which is higher than 22 deg, but he didn’t say how much)
- Mao Sir scoffed at the suggestion that the engine was choking at higher alpha. He said there is no such thing, but rather because it was designed initially for the Kaveri’s airflow and had to redesign it for the F-404. They have already tried various intakes on the LCA, with/without spring mounted doors on the intakes.
- Tejas MK2 will get an approx 10mm increase in diameter for the increased air flow requirement of the F-414 (Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj confirmed this as well). Too small a difference to be visible to the naked eye for us jingos. The spring mounted doors may also be bigger if needed
- When asked about the STR and ITR rates of the Tejas, he simply smiled and said “it’s enough, let me put it that way”. When I queried him further, asking about the ASR that the IAF had set based on the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29’s STR and ITR, his smile vanished and he got serious. He said that when people look at 10 different brochures and come up with requirements, without looking at whether meeting all those requirements is even possible for ANY one fighter, they set themselves and the program up for failure. He was very frank about this, stating that even those brochure specs were just that- brochure specs that even those famed fighters sometimes don’t meet. But they were taken as benchmarks anyway and then, without even bothering to look at the technological base in India, the ASR was prepared.
- He was full of praise for the handling of the Tejas. It’s a true delight to fly and both he and Grp Cpt Suneet Krishna have tremendous confidence in the aircraft itself. He said that they both push the aircraft to its current limits without any worry since the FCS is very good. He did mention that they didn’t push the Tejas Mk1 to its limits at the airshow but just wanted to display that it is maneuverable enough.
- When I asked him whether the Navy fully backs the NLCA program, he laughed and said “I’m here, aren’t I?”. So all in all, it appears that the IN is backing the program fully
- NP1 hasn’t flown more than 4 flights because they’re re-designing some of the structures on board. This is the additional strengthening required for handling the thumping that is a carrier landing. The landing gear is being re-designed since its overweight and NP2 is going to fly soon.
- I brought up the point he made at AI-2011 about how the Tejas should’ve started as a carrier variant and then gone on to the IAF variant. He seemed genuinely happy that someone had remembered that point of his and described the main issue with the NLCA NP1. The issue as he described it was that the LCA didn’t have a central keel to pass the structural loads to, something he said that the AMCA won’t face since it’s a twin engine fighter. This meant that they had to put new attachment points which aren’t the ideal solution and result in the bulky appearance of the current landing gear.
- I was going to ask him about the AMCA naval variant and he said that currently there is no plan for it.

At this point he had to leave and I was disappointed since I hadn’t gotten to discussing anything about the Elta 2032/MMR, Litening LDP and the weapons on the Mk1 such as the Derby/Python V/R-77/Astra and Sudarshan..


*another interview.....*

Next, I went to the ADA stall and just asked aloud if anyone could talk to me about the Mk2. A gentleman in a suit stepped up and said “Yes, what do you want to know about it? Which one, the IAF Mk2 or the Navy Mk2?” and I said “IAF Mk2” and he laughed and said “oh, you disappointed me, I was hoping you’d say Navy Mk2”..



Turned out, it was *Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj*, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program..I was blown away by this gentleman. Here was one of the top decision makers of the Tejas program and he was warm, friendly, forthcoming and genuinely interested in talking about the program without even asking me what my background was (till much later in my conversation). He was an engineer on the Sea Harrier, having served on the Viraat. Said he was rookie when Cmde Maolankar commanded the squadron. The salient points of the conversation with him were:

- The Tejas Mk2 is being lengthened by 0.5m only and not 1m as that big gasbag Prasun Sengupta was fibbing about. We really ought to never take him seriously at all. The reason cited were CG change primarily.
- F-414 was primarily an IN requirement. It turns out that the IAF was fine with the F-404IN20 engine on the Mk1. They jumped on the IN’s requirement for a higher thrust engine and requested the IAF Mk2 variant.
- The fuselage on the Mk2 will be slightly wider as well due to the larger diameter of the F-414 engine. This will be used to put onboard additional fuel
- The widening of the fuselage will push out the wings a bit, thus increasing wing span. Otherwise no increase in wing span as such. It doesn’t need it, since the wing area is massive already
- Additional fuel will be required primarily to offset the additional weight *(he said approx. 200 kg additional)* and higher SFC of the F-414 engine. So, it appears that *the Tejas Mk2’s range may not go up significantly over that of the Mk1*.
- He confirmed that the intake size will go up by approx. 10 mm for the Mk2.
- There is a LOT of work that is required to be done due to engine change. This is something jingos must keep in mind since jingos keep asking if this or that engine can be used or not on a platform..pumps, motors, fuel supply lines, nearly everything associated with the engine requires re-design due to an engine change due to higher fuel flow rates for a larger engine and the different specs of the power generation on board. Plus, the higher weight means localized structural strengthening as well, all of which takes time
-* N-LCA will be an out and out 9G fighter*. He was categorical about this.
- NP1 trainer doesn’t have a radar- the radome is used for carrying avionics. He said he was more interested in the NP2 since it was the first fighter and was going to carry the same radar as that on the Sea Harrier. I tried to quiz him on this because the Elta 2032 on the Sea Harrier is not the same as the Elta 2032/MMR on the Tejas Mk1, but he didn’t stop what he was saying.
- NP2 is basically similar to the NP1, but with the rear seater’s canopy painted over (he said that! I asked if it was faired over and he said no, just painted over). The rear seater’s space will carry avionics (that were put into the radome on the NP1) and additional fuel tank.
- NP1’s LEVCONS will be initially having 3 positions- 10 deg, 20 deg and 30 deg, just like flap settings. I tried to ask him if the *LEVCONS *would be just lift generating surfaces or that they *could be used as additional control surfaces by the FBW FCS to increase turn rates but he said that they were primarily required for higher lift when landing and taking off*
- They’re working on the hands-free take-off for the N-LCA. He said that it was no big deal and they’ll do it for sure
- *Mk2 *is to get *bigger MFD displays,* but he said that even the ones on the Mk1 are actually good and possibly adequate
- One piece of news that will get some jingos happy- he said that he has asked CSIO Chandigarh to develop a *frameless *HUD instead of the current one. It’ll feature higher FoV and its easier to view through since there is no frame obstructing the pilot’s view.
- DASH HMDS from Elbit for the N-LCA as well. I had initially thought they’d go with the Thales Top Owl-F as on the MiG-29K
- Just as I suspected, I asked him if the current drop tank is transonic- he confirmed that it is. A supersonic tank is being developed to carry about 200 gal. (~750 ltrs)
- *Also confirmed that there is nothing wrong with the centerline fuel tank – since we almost never see Tejas Mk1 carry a centerline fuel tank in place of the innermost wing pylon drop tanks. If required, Mk1s can carry drop tank on the centerline station also*
- Regarding *IFR*, it is *Cobham *that is going to work on it. Asked if it’s a fixed probe, retractable or semi-retractable, it was confirmed to be *semi*-*retractable*, like that on the MiG-29UPG. I asked about the lack of internal volume on such a small fighter for even a semi-retractable probe and he said that its going to be a small probe, and they’ll manage to find the space for it
- *No OBOGS *on Tejas *Mk1 *or NP1. It’ll be *there from Mk2 onwards*. Designed by DEBEL and certified by CEMILAC
- Regarding the landing gear, he said it was 1600 kgs over the Tejas Mk1’s landing gear weight initially!! They designed it per MilSpec which was too conservative. Also, in addition to the general Factor of Safety that is needed for Ultimate Loads, they added another Factor of Safety of 1, for a total of 2.5 because it was being done for the first time in India and they were concerned about the design..and used maraging steel which was heavy.
- He clearly said that before the NP1 first flight, none of the OEMs even believed that this program had any future and no one cooperated with them when asked for help. Then, when NP1 flew, they were interested in helping out.
- US Navy is now consulting with them on where to reduce weight, what other materials to use. All the leg work is done here itself though, and no work is being done by foreign OEMs. They are confident of shaving off 1000 kgs and bringing it to 600 kgs over the LCA AF version’s landing gear weight for the N-LCA
- On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and bring it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel
- Regarding radar, he said that they are pretty confident about it. The reason is that they’re using the same Elta 2032 as on the Sea Harrier! Since they’ve already qualified that radar for the Derby, he was pretty confident about the Derby on the N-LCA. Asked about the Python-V he said that it’s the R-73 that’ll be the WVR weapon..when I asked him how come the Python V was shown on the mockup outside, he said it’s just a mockup. Wasn’t very clear about this
- Shockingly about the radar, when I asked about what increased range one might get with the Elta 2032 since the diameter of the antenna on the N-LCA will be bigger than that on the LUSH SHar, he replied that there is no increase in range, its more than sufficient..I asked him specifically again that “really same detection range?” and he said yes. Again not very clear about this
- *When quizzed about AESA for the N-LCA Mk2, he said *that for now it’s the *same Elta 2032 *and Cmde Mao had recently even gone to Israel to test the radar that will be used on the *N*-*LCA Mk2*. Here, he mentioned that “if you get anything from Israel, just take it. Their equipment is very good”. Then went on to mention how the Barak was tested on the Viraat and was successful on its very first trial with 2 missiles fired. The first hit the target and the second hit its debris!
- He confirmed that the anti-ship missile for the N-LCA is going to be the Kh-35E, similar to the MiG-29K. Laughed when recollecting how poor the Sea Eagle was as an AShM.
- Primary role envisaged for the N-LCA is that of CAP and Fleet Defence, replacing the Sea Harrier. He was quite dismissive about the P-3C Orion threat (jokingly saying that to shoot that down, a gun is enough!), but was primarily concerned about the cruise missile and anti-ship missile threat to the Carrier. But he mentioned that a Carrier Battle Group consists of several rings of protection for the carrier, and that the carrier will get warned about any possible airborne threat several hundred kms before it even approached it. With that much warning, a N-LCA could dash to the edge of the fleet and take on the threat.
- When I asked him if shooting down sub-sonic anti-ship missiles with on-board missiles was a possible scenario for the N-LCA, he replied in the affirmative
- When he mentioned this, I asked him how good the Elta 2032 was with regards to dealing with sea clutter and he said that its very good.
- NP2 is currently already going through integration tests. Will likely fly in June or July if no issues are found.
- NP1 has given them a lot of data for how the platform behaves in 4 flights itself
- Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers

I had to leave at this point since my friend who I’d met after 6 years was in a hurry to leave so we could escape the impending traffic snarl. Thanked the Cmdr profusely and got his card as well. I asked for some other brochures on the Mk2 and he said that he could give me a soft copy of it. To date, I’ve never had so much come from a single conversation at any airshow or business show. Very competent fellows are working on these programs. They need our support and encouragement. Those who are constantly piling it on them, with negative reports are basically doing this nation a great dis-service. Criticize the organization perhaps for its failings, but those who are working on these programs are to be commended and encouraged.

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## skysthelimit

^^ Awesome post man - thank u

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## Manvantaratruti

45'22' said:


> .........*Very competent fellows are working on these programs. They need our support and encouragement. Those who are constantly piling it on them, with negative reports are basically doing this nation a great dis-service. Criticize the organization perhaps for its failings, but those who are working on these programs are to be commended and encouraged.*



Might put some of our local "experts" to shame.  ........... then again, it is very difficult to shame the self righteous. Arvind Kerjriwal is a classic example.

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## 45'22'

Manvantaratruti said:


> Might put some of our local "experts" to shame.  ........... then again, it is very difficult to shame the self righteous. Arvind Kerjriwal is a classic example.



the platform is maturing.....in few years....lca tejas will turn into a beast

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## GORKHALI

Tarmak007 on FB page is arranging a talk with Suneet Krishna(Test pilot) on 25th Jan, 4-6 PM IST. We should collate the questions we want to ask about LCA. please help me for this activity..
@sancho
@SpArK
@Water Car Engineer
@skysthelimit
@Jayanta
@fsayed
@Abingdonboy
@Black Widow
@Sergi


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## Abingdonboy

GORKHALI said:


> Tarmak007 on FB page is arranging a talk with Suneet Krishna(Test pilot) on 25th Jan, 4-6 PM IST. We should collate the questions we want to ask about LCA. please help me for this activity..
> @sancho
> @SpArK
> @Water Car Engineer
> @skysthelimit
> @Jayanta
> @fsayed
> @Abingdonboy
> @Black Widow
> @Sergi


 -Date flight of Mk.2.?
-Status of N-LCA?
-Has a LIFT variant of the LCA been conceptualised?
-Will the MK.2 really feature a AESA radar?
- HMDS now present on the LCA as there were talks that they had switched to a new type after riding issues relating to ejections.
-Have they shown any interest in triple-ejector racks for the LCA?
-Status of the full-mission Sim for the LCA
-Will the production MK.1 really have an IFR probe as I think was reported but I'm still cynical about?
-Any talk of a Mk.3 at this point?
-True AoA attained to date
- When exactly the first operational LCA SQD will be ready?
- Performance of the EL/M-2032 radar on the LCA MK.1?


Just off the top of my head.


He's a TP so it's unlikely he will be able to answer all of these.


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## cloud_9



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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Tarmak007 on FB page is arranging a talk with Suneet Krishna(Test pilot) on 25th Jan, 4-6 PM IST. We should collate the questions we want to ask about LCA. please help me for this activity..
> @sancho
> @SpArK
> @Water Car Engineer
> @skysthelimit
> @Jayanta
> @fsayed
> @Abingdonboy
> @Black Widow
> @Sergi



There are actually only a few things that interest me, although I don't expect too much insights of the project or IAF requirements of a test pilot. The one thing is, will the MK1 use EL2032 with some indigenous parts, similar to Bars radar with some indigenous parts in MKI and what is the issue with the indigenous radar in general?
Secondly, can you confirm that drag is a major issue, which is why speed requirements for example couldn't be met so far?
Thirdly, how much internal fuel increase is expected for the MK2?



Abingdonboy said:


> -Date flight of Mk.2.?
> -Status of N-LCA?
> -Has a LIFT variant of the LCA been conceptualised?
> -Will the MK.2 really feature a AESA radar?
> - HMDS now present on the LCA as there were talks that they had switched to a new type after riding issues relating to ejections.
> -Have they shown any interest in triple-ejector racks for the LCA?
> -Status of the full-mission Sim for the LCA
> -Will the production MK.1 really have an IFR probe as I think was reported but I'm still cynical about?
> -Any talk of a Mk.3 at this point?
> -True AoA attained to date
> - When exactly the first operational LCA SQD will be ready?
> - Performance of the EL/M-2032 radar on the LCA MK.1?
> 
> 
> Just off the top of my head.
> 
> 
> He's a TP so it's unlikely he will be able to answer all of these.




Buddy, ADA officials that are involved and responsible for the project have confirmed that MK1 will have a refuelling probe, so there is nothing than a test pilot will be able to say beyond that. We also know that MK2 will get AESA radar, the question is only when? Again it was ADA officials that stated, that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR.
We also know that the Dash Helmet is integrated for years, the issue with the seat was stated about the possible use of Topsight varients. And we also know that N-LCA remains a tech demo version, as long as the IAF LCA MK2 is not finished, since N-LCA for IN must be based on the MK2 version and since we have't the engine nore a prototype of the MK2 available yet, it will take some years till the status changes.


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## sancho

P.S. No for triple launchers as well, that's only a fantasy of PSG, the midwing stations needs to be able to carry the weight and the weapons, just that currently no bombs below 1000lb are integrated or aimed.


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## Sergi

GORKHALI said:


> Tarmak007 on FB page is arranging a talk with Suneet Krishna(Test pilot) on 25th Jan, 4-6 PM IST. We should collate the questions we want to ask about LCA. please help me for this activity..
> @sancho
> @SpArK
> @Water Car Engineer
> @skysthelimit
> @Jayanta
> @fsayed
> @Abingdonboy
> @Black Widow
> @Sergi


I really doubt a "test pilot" can and will share info about the programme. Still good luck with that.
He might be able to answer you about the performance and comfort wrt other planes like 21s , Jags n M2K the answers we already know. So nothing I can add to the list.
Just ask him one thing for me , "as a fighter pilot wouldnt you think it would have been better that LCA had one more hard point ??? If yes did you ever convey that to concern authorities in feedback ???"


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## rockstarIN

3.5 tonnes payload as confirmed by the test pilot in online chat.

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## sudhir007

45'22' said:


> The landing gear is being re-designed since its overweight and NP2 is going to fly soon.





45'22' said:


> On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and bring it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel

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## Jayanta

sudhir007 said:


>



N-LCA looks better than MK-1....hope the development works won't be effected by delays. N-LCA would definitely be a potent fighter and would boost the Naval aviation unit.

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## GORKHALI

Guys Here are some of your answers:

Will the production MK.1 really have an IFR probe as
I think was reported but I'm still cynical about? >Tarmak007 Refuelling probe is only an external attachment. All production aircraft will have it.
Sir,Performance of the EL/M-2032 radar on the LCA MK.1? >*Tarmak007*:Excellent
Tarmak007 We will integrate tandom pylons to be able to carry more number of weapons. That is one of the FOC tasks.
Tarmak007 Tejas FOC is planned for *end of the year.* The squadron will form as soon as the first production lot of Tejas are ready to be handed over. On the NAVAL version, design improvements shall be continuous. It will be done based on the flight test results.

Tarmak007 Cockpit is hugely comfortable..... i*ts truly HOTAS wherein the pilot can perform most of the functions *without lifting his hands off the primary controls

Tarmak007As on now we have cleared the *Tejas to 1.6 Mach as per the IAF requirement will stretch to 1.8 Mach in coming months.*
*Status of PV-5 please ?*.Tarmak007It is already undergoing ground tests after modifications and should start flying very shortly.
Are they planing for multiejector for Tejas Mk1 ? *Tarmak007 Yes*
*Tarmak007* A *new generation Martin baker ejection seat is fully integrated *on the Tejas escape system.

Tarmak007 Relaxed static stability along with state of the art fly by wire make the Tejas *hugely manoeuvrable and gives optimum performance*
What is the maximum payload carried by LCA so far? *Tarmak007**: Above 3.5 tonnes*

*Tarmak007* It is very capable and at the same time very easy to handle. Very comfortable to fly & operate ..

Thank you for the reply Sir, how many targets can it track and engage at a time in a look and shoot mode ??? And sir it wd be better if u kindly answer my last question about any unique capabilities ? Tarmak007 Can't give any specific numbers(Confidential matter) . But be assured it is *one of the best in its class...!*
Sir watz da stats f Tejas Mk2..by whn it vl b entrng servce? Tarmak007In design stage...
Sir what about the AoA of Tejas? Will it reach 27 during FOC? What about Mk2. Tarmak007We will be testing the aircraft to the AOA where we can derive maximum performance from it.... *pure AoA number has not much meaning*
The *HMDS is fully integrated on the Tejas*. We can designate targets using the HMDS and fire weapons. It greatly improves Air to AIr and AIr to ground capabilities..!

Tarmak007 Tejas will have a* fixed air to air refuelling probe*. Tejas can be refuelled pretty quickly on ground as well..

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> P.S. No for triple launchers as well, that's only a fantasy of PSG, the midwing stations needs to be able to carry the weight and the weapons, just that currently no bombs below 1000lb are integrated or aimed.


If the M2K is getting Spice 250 (as the DRDO Cheif said) then surely the LCA will be too at some point?


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## Abingdonboy

GORKHALI said:


> Guys Here are some of your answers:
> 
> Will the production MK.1 really have an IFR probe as
> I think was reported but I'm still cynical about? >Tarmak007 Refuelling probe is only an external attachment. All production aircraft will have it.
> Sir,Performance of the EL/M-2032 radar on the LCA MK.1? >*Tarmak007*:Excellent
> Tarmak007 We will integrate tandom pylons to be able to carry more number of weapons. That is one of the FOC tasks.
> Tarmak007 Tejas FOC is planned for *end of the year.* The squadron will form as soon as the first production lot of Tejas are ready to be handed over. On the NAVAL version, design improvements shall be continuous. It will be done based on the flight test results.
> 
> Tarmak007 Cockpit is hugely comfortable..... i*ts truly HOTAS wherein the pilot can perform most of the functions *without lifting his hands off the primary controls
> 
> Tarmak007As on now we have cleared the *Tejas to 1.6 Mach as per the IAF requirement will stretch to 1.8 Mach in coming months.*
> *Status of PV-5 please ?*.Tarmak007It is already undergoing ground tests after modifications and should start flying very shortly.
> Are they planing for multiejector for Tejas Mk1 ? *Tarmak007 Yes*
> *Tarmak007* A *new generation Martin baker ejection seat is fully integrated *on the Tejas escape system.
> 
> Tarmak007 Relaxed static stability along with state of the art fly by wire make the Tejas *hugely manoeuvrable and gives optimum performance*
> What is the maximum payload carried by LCA so far? *Tarmak007**: Above 3.5 tonnes*
> 
> *Tarmak007* It is very capable and at the same time very easy to handle. Very comfortable to fly & operate ..
> 
> Thank you for the reply Sir, how many targets can it track and engage at a time in a look and shoot mode ??? And sir it wd be better if u kindly answer my last question about any unique capabilities ? Tarmak007 Can't give any specific numbers(Confidential matter) . But be assured it is *one of the best in its class...!*
> Sir watz da stats f Tejas Mk2..by whn it vl b entrng servce? Tarmak007In design stage...
> Sir what about the AoA of Tejas? Will it reach 27 during FOC? What about Mk2. Tarmak007We will be testing the aircraft to the AOA where we can derive maximum performance from it.... *pure AoA number has not much meaning*
> The *HMDS is fully integrated on the Tejas*. We can designate targets using the HMDS and fire weapons. It greatly improves Air to AIr and AIr to ground capabilities..!
> 
> Tarmak007 Tejas will have a* fixed air to air refuelling probe*. Tejas can be refuelled pretty quickly on ground as well..


Nice!

@sancho it seems PSG was right (a rarity), the TP stated multiple times the LCA will have multiple ejector racks. And they seem to have sorted out the drag issues as he is saying they will be pushing the bird to 1.8 mach.

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## sathya

GORKHALI said:


> Guys Here are some of
> 
> *Status of PV-5 please ?*.Tarmak007It is already undergoing ground tests after modifications and should start flying very shortly.



What's this pv 5 ? Is it lsp 6 ?
Spin tests and higher AOA is going to be tested in LSP 6 , means LSP 6 should be rolled out soon?

Ok got it trainer version... Some issues ?


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## Sri

sathya said:


> What's this pv 5 ? Is it lsp 6 ?
> Spin tests and higher AOA is going to be tested in LSP 6 , means LSP 6 should be rolled out soon?
> 
> Ok got it trainer version... Some issues ?



PV5 is older airframe which is now integrated with EW suite. LSP 6 is not yet rolled out and will be for AOA tests

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> If the M2K is getting Spice 250 (as the DRDO Cheif said) then surely the LCA will be too at some point?



He mentioned SPICE 2000, which was pitted in a competition against the AASM 1000 (both 1000Kg class PGMs), not the SPICE 250 and if the 250 would be procured, it would be with the quadlauncher for the centerline station.



Abingdonboy said:


> Nice!
> 
> @sancho it seems PSG was right (a rarity), the TP stated multiple times the LCA will have multiple ejector racks. And they seem to have sorted out the drag issues as he is saying they will be pushing the bird to 1.8 mach.



Not at all, he claimed about Rafales triple pylons in it's initial article (that btw was edited later ), that would gave LCA the capability to carry 6 x LGBs, while the test pilot said, that twin pylons would be added. Also PSG claimed about Israeli light weight LGBs in the MK81 class, while the twin launcher hints to the MK82 class, similar to what Mirage 2000 or Rafale usually carries. 
Lets see, they made some drag improvements for sure, but so far it didn't paid out, maybe more changes are to come.



Jayanta said:


> N-LCA looks better than MK-1....hope the development works won't be effected by delays. N-LCA would definitely be a potent fighter and would boost the Naval aviation unit.



So by looks you conclude that it will be a potent fighter? Btw, the current N-LCA is the same MK1 standard as the air force versions, the only differences are the navalisations, but the engines, the main part of the airframe and most systems are the same.


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## Jayanta

@ futur


sancho said:


> He mentioned SPICE 2000, which was pitted in a competition against the AASM 1000 (both 1000Kg class PGMs), not the SPICE 250 and if the 250 would be procured, it would be with the quadlauncher for the centerline station.
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all, he claimed about Rafales triple pylons in it's initial article (that btw was edited later ), that would gave LCA the capability to carry 6 x LGBs, while the test pilot said, that twin pylons would be added. Also PSG claimed about Israeli light weight LGBs in the MK81 class, while the twin launcher hints to the MK82 class, similar to what Mirage 2000 or Rafale usually carries.
> Lets see, they made some drag improvements for sure, but so far it didn't paid out, maybe more changes are to come.
> 
> 
> 
> So by looks you conclude that it will be a potent fighter? Btw, the current N-LCA is the same MK1 standard as the air force versions, the only differences are the navalisations, but the engines, the main part of the airframe and most systems are the same.



Don't you think the cockpit of the N-LCA gives a better 360 degree view and above all doesn't it look aerodynamically superior than the LCA-MK1.


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> @ futur
> 
> 
> Don't you think the cockpit of the N-LCA gives a better 360 degree view and above all doesn't it look aerodynamically superior than the LCA-MK1.



How so? It is the same fighter, just that the cockpit is slightly angles for better view at carrier landings and the addition of LEVCONs, which again are mainly meant for carrier landings, although they might improve LCAs maneuverability too. However, the "looks" definitely doesn't make it better or even superior.


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## Water Car Engineer

> We will integrate tandom pylons to be able to carry more number of weapons. That is one of the FOC tasks.







> [*]Are they planning multi ejector pylons on tejas mk-1?
> Like · Reply · Yesterday at 6:32am
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarmak007Yes.




Tarmak007 - Timeline Photos | Facebook

Didnt even know.






> [*]When is NP-2 expected to fly?
> Like · Reply · Yesterday at 6:19am
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarmak007Shortly ...



Hope so.


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## Black Widow

Jayanta said:


> Firstly, @sancho has explained everything that I wanted to say...and secondly and most important...being humble and gentle to people shows the true strength of a gentleman. There are two ways of explaining things @sancho choose the correct way and my dear you choose the wrong.




My Apologies, I beg to disagree with @sancho , Confrontal Tank are useless in LCA. LCA is basically a point defense fighter with other capabilities. 

Remember one can not make omni platform weapon system. You look at EFT, it is Good A2A fighter with ground attack capabilities. Similarly Rafael is good ground attack fighter with A2A capabilities..

On same line LCA is A2A, Point defense fighter with A2G capabilities. MidAir refueling and Drop tank are two way to increase the range. 

And unlike USA our Defense profile is not huge..


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> And unlike USA our Defense profile is not huge..



Which is wrong, otherwise IAF wouldn't insist on increased internal and external fuel capacity for the M2Ks and Mig 29s and keep in mind that both have or will have IFR capability too. In fact the last air chief made it clear, that IAFs aim is to have a fleet of fighters and AWACS or transport aircrafts, that can be refuelled in mid air. The problem is only, that you confuse it with extended range only or strike roles, but that's wrong. As I already said, the biggest advantage for LCA would be lower drag and RCS and especially as an interceptor, both are crucial! An LCA in normal interception config would carry at least a single centerline fuel tank, standard CAP config is even 2 x bigger wing fuel tanks. An LCA with either increased internal fuel or CFTs however, won't need an external fuel tank in interception role anymore (benefits => lower drag and RCS) and even in CAP it would need only a single smaller centerline fuel tank, or with CFTs no fuel tank at all (benefits again => lower drag and RCS).
When you then add the benefits of loads in strike role, the advantage of longer endurance in air defence or recon roles and even simply the possibly better flight performance, that is an important upgrade for LCA.


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## thesolar65

Tejas to Begin High-altitude Trials in Leh.

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) campaign of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is set to gain momentum with the high altitude trials scheduled this week in Leh. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director P S Subramanyam told Express on Tuesday that during the Leh trials, the aircraft engine would be started at lower than -10 degree Celsius.

“We will also evaluate the aircraft performance at low temperature and high altitude. This time, we need to also test the performance of various sensors at the hilly terrain,” Subramanyam said.

Only one aircraft is participating in the current trials with ground support teams already being positioned at Nasik, Pathankot and Leh.

“These trails will not exceed more than a week. We have the next phase of weapon trials in Jamnagar, scheduled in March,” the ADA chief said.

He said the number of test flights of Tejas dipped in January owing to the preparatory phase for the FOC campaign.

“Various activities for the FOC have been initiated much before the Initial Operational Clearance event in December 2013. Most of the FOC parameters that we need to achieve have reached the halfway mark,” he said. Currently the aircraft from the Tejas flight-line are being upgraded to the FOC configuration to undertake flight trials.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd Chairman R K Tyagi said the production activities at the company’s Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) unit are pacing ahead as per the plan. “The project progress is being monitored on a daily basis now. We have completed the wings of the first series production (SP-1) aircraft and it has come out with nil deviations,” Tyagi said.

The HAL is mandated to deliver SP-1 in the next three months.

In the FOC phase so far, the aircraft engine was switched on using a jet fuel starter three consecutive times (three times in a row), as mandated by the Indian Air Force. A rainproof test was done on the limited series production (LSP-7) aircraft.

Tejas to Begin High-altitude Trials in Leh -The New Indian Express

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## rockstarIN

Major news from the above news


during the Leh trials, the aircraft engine would be started at lower than -10 degree Celsius.
Only one aircraft is participating in the current trials with ground support teams already being positioned at Nasik, Pathankot and Leh.
the next phase of weapon trials in Jamnagar, scheduled in March
number of test flights of Tejas dipped in January owing to the preparatory phase for the FOC campaign
Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) unit are pacing ahead as per the plan. “The project progress is being monitored on a daily basis now
he aircraft also was subjected to brake tests, while the integration work of the underbelly drop tank has begun at the HAL facility
HAL has also begun training of IAF technicians on the aircraft ahead of the Tejas squadron formation.

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## IND151

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...g9L937D6v43YtDNuUq2PHLQ&bvm=bv.60983673,d.bmk

Tejas to Begin High-altitude Trials in Leh | idrw.org


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## graphican

thesolar65 said:


> Tejas to Begin High-altitude Trials in Leh.
> 
> The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) campaign of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is set to gain momentum with the high altitude trials scheduled this week in Leh. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director P S Subramanyam told Express on Tuesday that during the Leh trials, the aircraft engine would be started at lower than -10 degree Celsius.



Didn't they miss the coldest patch for this testing? December and first half of January are the coldest months in northern side of subcontinent where temperature may go way below -10.

*A Question:* Had India tested all contenders of MMRCA at the same temperature (-10) during their Leh tests?

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## nik22

graphican said:


> Didn't they miss the coldest patch for this testing? December and first half of January are the coldest months in northern side of subcontinent where temperature may go way below -10.
> 
> *A Question:* Had India tested all contenders of MMRCA at the same temperature (-10) during their Leh tests?



Good Thought! Not sure about MMRCA. They would have test the plane as they got. IAF has very high opinion of Western products anyway.

Tejas will be subjected to all possible trials. IAF will not do any compromise. Neither does the Indian army. Hail Indian (Foreign Lover) Military!

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## sancho

graphican said:


> *A Question:* Had India tested all contenders of MMRCA at the same temperature (-10) during their Leh tests?



Doubtful, since they came at different times of the evaluation. US fighters and Rafale were the first in sept - oct, followed by the Mig and EF, the Gripen were splitted into C/Ds and NG, with the latter arriving only somewhere in spring.


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## IND151

HAL to roll out 2 Tejas this Year | idrw.org

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## Jayanta

IND151 said:


> HAL to roll out 2 Tejas this Year | idrw.org



Just two...great work HAL..at this pace you will manage to roll out the 100th Tejas in 2064.


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## trident2010

Jayanta said:


> Just two...great work HAL..at this pace you will manage to roll out the 100th Tejas in 2064.



I think this is initial number. Later they should increase the rate.

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## Jayanta

trident2010 said:


> I think this is initial number. Later they should increase the rate.



The word "late" and "LCA tejas" are now synonyms. When the fighter has already cleared the IOC-2 and is to get FOC this year...the production rate of 2/annum is extremely slow.


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## Manindra

Jayanta said:


> The word "late" and "LCA tejas" are now synonyms. When the fighter has already cleared the IOC-2 and is to get FOC this year...the production rate of 2/annum is extremely slow.



Those are in Before IOC-2 & IOC-2 standard production would be fast in FOC standard.


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## shree835

*Highlights of Tarmak007 live chat with Tejas TP Suneet*

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## IND151

*IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs*


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## ejaz007

*LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*

*Latest Update:*

*Feb 10/14:* A written reply from Minister of State for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh to Lok Sabha parliamentarians triggers stories about the IAF raising their planned LCA buys from 200 to 300. Unfortunately for the media reporting that story, it rests entirely on an error of logic. Here’s the exact quote, which can’t be linked anymore thanks to MoD web site changes:

“The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA. Steps have been initiated for upgradation of other fighter aircrafts like MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage-2000; transport aircraft like AN-32 and Mi-17/Mi-17 IV helicopters.”

What this statement does not say is that the replacement will happen on an equal basis. It’s perfectly possible to replace existing squadrons with fewer squadrons and fewer planes, if one is so inclined. The Americans have been doing so for decades, and they’re hardly alone. So far, firm IAF commitments involve 126 LCA Tejas planes: 6 squadrons of 21 planes each, with only 96 (16 x 6) as front-line fighters. Each squadron also has 3 rotation aircraft to cover maintenance absences or loss replacement, and 2 twin-seat trainers, to make 21. Beyond those 2 Tejas Mk.I squadrons and 4 Tejas Mk.II squadrons, we’ll have to see. Sources: India MoD, “Modernisation of IAF” | India’s Business Standard, “IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs”

LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help


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## trident2010

In time as plane evolves in the IAF doctrine, number will increase. These are initial commitments not the final.


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## Yogi

Jayanta said:


> The word "late" and "LCA tejas" are now synonyms. When the fighter has already cleared the IOC-2 and is to get FOC this year...the production rate of 2/annum is extremely slow.



Its not 2 per year but rather 2 this year i.e. by the end of *March 2014* itself n 6 more will be delivered in 2014-15. n this just the beginning it'll go to around 16 per annum in a couple of years. 

HAL to deliver two Tejas to IAF by March-end | idrw.org


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## rockstarIN

Yogi said:


> Its not 2 per year but rather 2 this year i.e. by the end of *March 2014* itself n 6 more will be delivered in 2014-15. n this just the beginning it'll go to around 16 per annum in a couple of years.
> 
> HAL to deliver two Tejas to IAF by March-end | idrw.org




If it is march end, then how come there will be only 2 planes this year(2014). Are they referring financial year?


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## Yogi

rockstarIN said:


> If it is march end, then how come there will be only 2 planes this year(2014). Are they referring financial year?



yes, they r referring to financial year 2013-14. As Tejas got IOC-2 in Dec2013 only, therefore i would say the production rate is not bad at all considering HAL's track record.


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## rockstarIN

Yogi said:


> yes, they r referring to financial year 2013-14. As Tejas got IOC-2 in Dec2013 only, therefore i would say the production rate is not bad at all considering HAL's track record.


So you mean to say 6 more jets will be produced in April 2014 - March 2015, one jet in two months!


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## Yogi

rockstarIN said:


> So you mean to say 6 more jets will be produced in April 2014 - March 2015, one jet in two months!


 
Yes, as there is still a lot of work to complete for FOC. Therefore, their prime focus will remain that only. Though a bit slowly but surely the production rate will pick up.

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## rockstarIN

GURU DUTT said:


> Facebook
> Tejas / LCA MK2s LRDE made AESA range well dont ask they wont tell


cant see the image


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## neehar

45'22' said:


> this is what i found on br forum
> 
> 
> *another interview.....*
> 
> *Next, I went to the ADA *stall and just asked aloud if anyone could talk to me about the Mk2. A gentleman in a suit stepped up and said “Yes, what do you want to know about it?


something similar to my experience.but i perhaps i am the few fortunate who were able to enter directly in to ADA..i got to admit..i was overwhelmed with my excitement when i saw an lca trainer put on display in the premises ..i was just feet away from it..i still remember my breath got heavier that moment..and when i decided to touch it sneakily..i was called inside the office...so missed the chance if i was lucky..perhaps next time!

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## GURU DUTT

rockstarIN said:


> cant see the image


thats why i gave the link





AESA radar for LCA MK2 made by LRDE specs and range not know yet

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## rockstarIN



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## kaykay

GURU DUTT said:


> thats why i gave the link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA radar for LCA MK2 made by LRDE specs and range not know yet


What radar is this dude?


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## GURU DUTT

kaykay said:


> What radar is this dude?


AESA of LCA MK2 by LRDE


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## Robinhood Pandey

GURU DUTT said:


> thats why i gave the link
> 
> *AESA radar *for LCA MK2 made by LRDE specs and range not know yet



Guru bhai, source please


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## GURU DUTT

chak de INDIA said:


> Guru bhai, source please


just saw that on FB and there are no specs or range given but some rumor is that it will have 130 TERM modules with 8 Tr modules each

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## kaykay

GURU DUTT said:


> AESA of LCA MK2 by LRDE


If true then very good news. @Abingdonboy @sancho @janon views pls.

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## AMCA

GURU DUTT said:


> thats why i gave the link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA radar for LCA MK2 made by LRDE specs and range not know yet



This is not an indigenous one, this picture is from Aero India 2009.. This certainly is not an Indian effort and even if it is, the TR modules are certainly not Indian, Antenna might be indigenous though.


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## GURU DUTT

AMCA said:


> This is not an indigenous one, this picture is from Aero India 2009.. This certainly is not an Indian effort and even if it is, the TR modules are certainly not Indian, Antenna might be indigenous though.


maybe your wrong buddy this time as LRDE had shown its TERM modules a few years(water/liquid cooled fighters while air cooled for AWACs) back let me get a link or foto or if some one has please post them


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## AMCA

GURU DUTT said:


> maybe your wrong buddy this time as LRDE had shown its TERM modules a few years(water/liquid cooled fighters while air cooled for AWACs) back let me get a link or foto or if some one has please post them



I would be the happiest person on earth if only someone can prove it otherwise, as an Indian I am as exited as you all are to hear about an Indigenous AESA Radar for Tejas. There might be developments happening in the country, but the above picture resembles CAPTOR AESA..

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## GURU DUTT

AMCA said:


> I would be the happiest person on earth if only someone can prove it otherwise, as an Indian I am as exited as you all are to hear about an Indigenous AESA Radar for Tejas. There might be developments happening in the country, but the above picture resembles CAPTOR AESA..


well to be honest its seems to ggod to be true to me but you cant say anything as of yet ir also seems like the extra money as many think were given to french thales and israelies had to do sothing in this regard also ... maybe

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## AMCA

GURU DUTT said:


> well to be honest its seems to ggod to be true to me but you cant say anything as of yet ir also seems like the extra money as many think were given to french thales and israelies had to do sothing in this regard also ... maybe



Well lets hope for the best

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> just saw that on FB and there are no specs or range given but some rumor is that it will have 130 TERM modules with 8 Tr modules each





kaykay said:


> If true then very good news. @Abingdonboy @sancho @janon views pls.


IF true then good news but I'll remain skeptical for now, Facebook isn't the most reliable source of information.

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## sancho

kaykay said:


> If true then very good news. @Abingdonboy @sancho @janon views pls.



It's a pic of a mock up and actually it's not new. We know about AESA radar developments, we also know that it is aimed on LCA MK2, what we don't know however is...

...how far is fighter LRDE with radar developments in general, given they seem not to be able to provide a puls doppler radar to LCA MK1 and upgraded Jags an indigenous radar
...how far is LRDE's AESA radar developments, given that the reports are uncertain
...if it be mature and capable enough to provide LCA MK2 with the necessary performance and modes for a modern multi role fighter, or will that be compromised in favour of inidgenous claims?
...if the first MK2s come with the indigenous puls doppler radar, as a bridge till the AESA is ready (bad compromised for LCA as a fighter)? 

It's good that we have AESA developments, but it's not good if we compromise on capability and delivery timeframes, only to say we have an indigenous radar on an indigenous fighter. We made that mistake with the engine before and should have learned by now.

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## IND151

Tejas project to cost Rs 55,000 crore | idrw.org


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## 帅的一匹

One shall have enough patience for Tejas.



IND151 said:


> Tejas project to cost Rs 55,000 crore | idrw.org


I still remember there was a thread saying that the cost of Tejas is only for 25 million USD.


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## Yogi

wanglaokan said:


> One shall have enough patience for Tejas.
> 
> 
> I still remember there was a thread saying that the cost of Tejas is only for 25 million USD.


$25-26 million is per unit cost of production of LCA MK1 while 55,000 Cr. includes the total development cost plus a rough estimate of cost of production 170 LCA(i.e. 20 MK1, 100MK2 n 50 NLCA).

plz try to atleast read the article once before pressing the reply button.

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## IND151

wanglaokan said:


> One shall have enough patience for Tejas.
> 
> 
> I still remember there was a thread saying that the cost of Tejas is only for 25 million USD.



The 550,00,00,00,000 Rupees is cost of Tejas Project not CPU.

55,000 crore INR = 55 Billion Rupees, in USD= 881,98,00,000 USD i.e around 8.8 Billion dollars.

This cost is for all project.

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## SpArK



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## GURU DUTT

SpArK said:


>



now thats interesting


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## SpArK

GURU DUTT said:


> now thats interesting




Gripen

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## GURU DUTT

SpArK said:


>




good good keep them coming bro .. im lovin it


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## SpArK

GURU DUTT said:


> good good keep them coming bro .. im lovin it






















.

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## GURU DUTT

SpArK said:


> .


 onli this one is interesting here brother


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## Abingdonboy

@SpArK bro! Come on, not here.



SpArK said:


>


A nice pic, not seen the rear seat of a LCA trainer before. This configuration (with the rear seat instructor seat, not being raised over the front seat) is definitely asking to be used as a pilot-WSO profile at some point.

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## Dandpatta

SpArK said:


>


Are these Tejas pix from current production line? I am hoping for an answer that says "YES"


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## nik22

Dandpatta said:


> Are these Tejas pix from current production line? I am hoping for an answer that says "YES"


YES!


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## nomi007

SpArK said:


> .

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## nomi007




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## holysaturn

nomi007 said:


>


Looks close but arent 2 tejas going to be delivered in march 2014 so going by the table we are ahead of schedule and the production rate doesnt increase till 2025 which is hard to believe.


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## sancho

holysaturn said:


> Looks close but arent 2 tejas going to be delivered in march 2014 so going by the table we are ahead of schedule and the production rate doesnt increase till 2025 which is hard to believe.



Depends if that table is correct, official statements said, the first 4 MK1 will be available this year and the figures for MK2 seems to be too streched too. The first flight might take time, the flight testing and production however should be faster, since there are not that many external changes planed so far.


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## holysaturn

sancho said:


> Depends if that table is correct, official statements said, the first 4 MK1 will be available this year and the figures for MK2 seems to be too streched too. The first flight might take time, the flight testing and production however should be faster, since there are not that many external changes planed so far.


I read somewhere that the over all layout is much the same just slightly elongated obsolescent parts dropped and replaced.The flight testing and the production can continue with the current avionics,the engine option is clear so there is no reason it will take till 2025 for the first mk2 sqd to be commissioned.


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## SQ8

Is this a Tejas thread or semi-nude picture thread? Folks.. keep it clean.

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## Superboy

holysaturn said:


> Looks close but arent 2 tejas going to be delivered in march 2014 so going by the table we are ahead of schedule and the production rate doesnt increase till 2025 which is hard to believe.




SP-1 and SP-2 go to the testing establishment. SP-3 and SP-4 which are scheduled to be delivered by the end of March 2015 are the first two SP planes heading to No. 45 Flying Daggers.  By April 2015 IAF is scheduled to have 2 operational Tejas Mk 1 planes.


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## sancho

holysaturn said:


> I read somewhere that the over all layout is much the same just slightly elongated obsolescent parts dropped and replaced.The flight testing and the production can continue with the current avionics,the engine option is clear so there is no reason it will take till 2025 for the first mk2 sqd to be commissioned.



External changes will be, the modified fuselage and extended airframe, because of more space required for engine, fuel tanks and avionics. not a big deal that would require much testing, what we don't know yet is, if IRST and AESA will be availabe from the start or would come later only. In both cases however, the flight tests should be done way earlier with MK2 prototypes and should not require that much of testing, UNLESS we don't test the fighter but the immature AESA radar. Which as I often say, could be avoided by inducting MK2 with a common radar of MMRCA, that would be licence produced in India anyway.

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## Luftwaffe

SpArK said:


> Gripen


 
The girl on right ruined Gripen's wonderful pic I was trying to look at the landing gear but she is blocking the view with her jacket! The Flanker is heavy one as usual..


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## Jayanta

*http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/02/tejas-mk-ii-preliminary-design-to-be.html

By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service
Bangalore:* The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is giving the final touches to the preliminary design of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II, scheduled to be completed by the end of March. An official confirmed to _Express _on Saturday that the detailed design phase of LCA Mk-2 would begin in the second quarter of 2014. A separate project team from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), dedicated to the upgraded version, is currently undertaking daily reviews to get the first cut of the design out by next month.
The main scope of Tejas Mk-2 programme is to have the engine changed from the current GE F-404 to GE F-414. A development contract for eight engines for the preliminary design phase has already been signed with GE, with the critical design review already been completed at its Boston facility. The Mk-II fighter will have OBOGS (Onboard Oxygen Generating System), which is being developed by Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL), a Bangalore-based Defence Research and Development Organisation lab. "Currently, the ground development is over for OBOGS and the systems are undergoing various stages of qualification process," an official who wished not to be named, said.
Tejas Mk-II will have a unified electronic warfare system aimed at detecting and ducking enemy radar and later jamming it. "It is likely to be the most maintenance-friendly aircraft in its class and all equipment onboard can be easily removed or re-installed smoothly. The Tejas MK-I has some scope for improving the maintenance aspects, which is being addressed in Mk-II," the official said.
Her promises to make Tejas Mk-II free from any kind of dead weight. "The Mk-I has some dead weight in the form of lead plates installed to balance the aircraft which will disappear in Mk-II. It will also have considerable amount of extra fuel capability in operational clean configuration," he added.
The point performance of Mk-II will be higher than Mk-I, which means the aircraft will have better rate of climb, transonic acceleration and turn rates. The new version will have an in-flight refueling system and the ADA-HAL combine is planning to take a new route for Mk-II production. "We are going for the DFMA (Design for Manufacturing and Assembly) technique for the production of Mk-II. The DFMA concept will be used for the first time for an Indian aviation programme, which will decrease the production time and cost, also increase the quality quotient," the official said.
With the avionics systems changing at a faster rate leading to technology obsolescence, the makers of Tejas have an uphill task of making the fighter contemporary even in the 2025s. "We will straight away get on to the production phase after the prototypes complete the required test flights. The The Indian Air Force (IAF) support is a huge factor for the Mk-2 project with some cost being shared by them. It shows the confidence the user has in us. Tejas will be the mainstay for IAF in the long run," he said.
The Mk-II project was sanctioned in 2009 at a cost about of Rs 2400 crore and post-design finalisation phase, two prototypes are set to roll out from the HAL hangars. The IAF has committed a minimum of squadrons of Tejas Mk-2.
*Copyright@The New Indian Express*

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## IND151

*Tejas Mk-II Preliminary Design to be Out Next Month*

*



*





The *Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)* is giving the* final touches* to the *preliminary design* of the *Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II*, scheduled to be* completed *by the end of March. *An official confirmed to Express on Saturday that the detailed design phase of LCA Mk-2 would begin in the second quarter of 2014*. A separate project team from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), dedicated to the upgraded version, is currently undertaking daily reviews to get the first cut of the design out by next month.

*The main scope of Tejas Mk-2 programme is to have the engine changed from the current GE F-404 to GE F-414*. A development contract for eight engines for the preliminary design phase has already been signed with GE, with the critical design review already been completed at its Boston facility. The Mk-II fighter will have OBOGS (Onboard Oxygen Generating System), which is being developed by Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL), a Bangalore-based Defence Research and Development Organisation lab. "Currently, the ground development is over for OBOGS and the systems are undergoing various stages of qualification process," an official who wished not to be named, said.

*Tejas Mk-II will have a unified electronic warfare system aimed at detecting and ducking enemy radar and later jamming it*. "It is likely to be the most maintenance-friendly aircraft in its class and all equipment onboard can be easily removed or re-installed smoothly. The Tejas MK-I has some scope for improving the maintenance aspects, which is being addressed in Mk-II," the official said.

Her promises to make Tejas Mk-II free from any kind of dead weight. "The Mk-I has some dead weight in the form of lead plates installed to balance the aircraft which will disappear in Mk-II. *It will also have considerable amount of extra fuel capability in operational clean configuration*," he added.

The point performance of Mk-II will be higher than Mk-I, which means the aircraft will have better rate of climb, transonic acceleration and turn rates. *The new version will have an in-flight refueling system and the ADA-HAL combine is planning to take a new route for Mk-II production. "We are going for the DFMA (Design for Manufacturing and Assembly) technique for the production of Mk-II. The DFMA concept will be used for the first time for an Indian aviation programme, which will decrease the production time and cost, also increase the quality quotient*," the official said.

With the avionics systems changing at a faster rate leading to technology obsolescence, the makers of Tejas have an uphill task of making the fighter contemporary even in the 2025s. "We will straight away get on to the production phase after the prototypes complete the required test flights. The The Indian Air Force (IAF) support is a huge factor for the Mk-2 project with some cost being shared by them. It shows the confidence the user has in us. Tejas will be the mainstay for IAF in the long run," he said.

The Mk-II project was sanctioned in 2009 at a cost about of Rs 2400 crore and post-design finalisation phase, two prototypes are set to roll out from the HAL hangars. The IAF has committed a minimum of squadrons of Tejas Mk-2.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...ll1GK2WG4wjrFGmw20xS0QA&bvm=bv.61535280,d.bmk

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## sms

IND151 said:


> * "We are going for the DFMA (Design for Manufacturing and Assembly) technique for the production of Mk-II. The DFMA concept will be used for the first time for an Indian aviation programme, which will decrease the production time and cost, also increase the quality quotient*," the official said.



ADA/ HAL are they really working for aviation/ aircraft industry? 
Isn't it mandatory for all programs in aircraft design and manufacturing?

Every tom, Dick , Harry is (even for low value consumer items) using DFMA for new product and our babus just woke up as if they are talking about something revolutionary.

More I read more skeptical I get!


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## ejaz007

*LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*

*Latest Update:*

*Feb 12/14: Costs.* India’s MoD releases another set of official cost figures for the program, leaving out the Kaveri engine but adding a “Phase-III” development period. LCA development costs have now risen from an original INR 71.16 billion to INR 140.33 billion (+97.2%), or INR 168.72 billion (+137.1%) if one properly counts the Kaveri engine. Expected production line investments would push those figures even higher. India’s MoD was savvy enough to compare development costs to Saab’s more advanced Gripen NG:

“Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion) including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production of 08 aircraft per annum. This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.”

That’s actually just the current predicted cost of the IAF’s MK.I/II development, minus the Kaveri engine, and arguably without creating infrastructure that could actually deliver 8 aircraft per year. The Gripen NG figure would need to be checked carefully, to see what it included and excluded. Even so, the simple act of making the comparison shows a greater sense of external awareness than we’re used to seeing from India’s MoD. Source: India MoD/ PIB, “Developmental Cost of LCA Project”.

LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help


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## Robinhood Pandey

ejaz007 said:


> *LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*
> 
> *Latest Update:*
> 
> *Feb 10/14:* A written reply from Minister of State for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh to Lok Sabha parliamentarians triggers stories about the IAF raising their planned LCA buys from 200 to 300. Unfortunately for the media reporting that story, it rests entirely on an error of logic. Here’s the exact quote, which can’t be linked anymore thanks to MoD web site changes:
> 
> “The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA. Steps have been initiated for upgradation of other fighter aircrafts like MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage-2000; transport aircraft like AN-32 and Mi-17/Mi-17 IV helicopters.”
> 
> What this statement does not say is that the replacement will happen on an equal basis. It’s perfectly possible to replace existing squadrons with fewer squadrons and fewer planes, if one is so inclined. The Americans have been doing so for decades, and they’re hardly alone. So far, firm IAF commitments involve 126 LCA Tejas planes: 6 squadrons of 21 planes each, with only 96 (16 x 6) as front-line fighters. Each squadron also has 3 rotation aircraft to cover maintenance absences or loss replacement, and 2 twin-seat trainers, to make 21. Beyond those 2 Tejas Mk.I squadrons and 4 Tejas Mk.II squadrons, we’ll have to see. Sources: India MoD, “Modernisation of IAF” | India’s Business Standard, “IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs”
> 
> LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help



Page#593. . post #8887



ejaz007 said:


> *LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*
> 
> *Latest Update:*
> 
> *Feb 12/14: Costs.* India’s MoD releases another set of official cost figures for the program, leaving out the Kaveri engine but adding a “Phase-III” development period. LCA development costs have now risen from an original INR 71.16 billion to INR 140.33 billion (+97.2%), or INR 168.72 billion (+137.1%) if one properly counts the Kaveri engine. Expected production line investments would push those figures even higher. India’s MoD was savvy enough to compare development costs to Saab’s more advanced Gripen NG:
> 
> “Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion) including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production of 08 aircraft per annum. This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.”
> 
> That’s actually just the current predicted cost of the IAF’s MK.I/II development, minus the Kaveri engine, and arguably without creating infrastructure that could actually deliver 8 aircraft per year. The Gripen NG figure would need to be checked carefully, to see what it included and excluded. Even so, the simple act of making the comparison shows a greater sense of external awareness than we’re used to seeing from India’s MoD. Source: India MoD/ PIB, “Developmental Cost of LCA Project”.
> 
> LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help



page#596 . . . . .post#8936



LOL. . . how many times you post a single report ?


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## ejaz007

chak de INDIA said:


> Page#593. . post #8887
> 
> page#596 . . . . .post#8936
> 
> LOL. . . how many times you post a single report ?



Its latest update. First update is dated February 10, 2014 while second is February 12, 2014.

I hope you can read and use your brains.


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## Black Widow

ejaz007 said:


> “Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion) including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production of 08 aircraft per annum. This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.”




One Innocent question... What about infrastructure and skill set.. Did Grippen start from "0"? Sweden had no experts? Is Grippen Sweden's first Fighter plane?

Does Sweden has experience of making fighter planes?


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> One Innocent question... What about infrastructure and skill set.. Did Grippen start from "0"? Sweden had no experts? Is Grippen Sweden's first Fighter plane?
> 
> Does Sweden has experience of making fighter planes?



He doesn't stated any opinion, just posted news and please not these excuses again. We had no experience great, then we should have done the development with a foreign partner and consultations from the start, not only when our own tries didn't worked out. The fact is, that even an experienced country like Sweden and an experienced manufacturer like Saab took design support of BAE, took a proven foreign engine from GE and modified it to their own requirements, added available foreign avionics and systems...all to ease the development and reduce risks!
That basically is the same approach that we used with the Dhruv too and today the Gripen and the Dhruv are successful. So there were better ways to do the development of LCA, either based on foreign examples, or even on own examples, but we simply messed it up and we shouldn't keep denying that!

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> He doesn't stated any opinion, just posted news and please not these excuses again. We had no experience great, then we should have done the development with a foreign partner and consultations from the start, not only when our own tries didn't worked out. The fact is, that even an experienced country like Sweden and an experienced manufacturer like Saab took design support of BAE, took a proven foreign engine from GE and modified it to their own requirements, added available foreign avionics and systems...all to ease the development and reduce risks!
> That basically is the same approach that we used with the Dhruv too and today the Gripen and the Dhruv are successful. So there were better ways to do the development of LCA, either based on foreign examples, or even on own examples, but we simply messed it up and we shouldn't keep denying that!




Dear @sancho , This is not execuse. When LCA was planned (80s) and when work started (Early 90s), India was different. There were no foreign help available. 

Being a senior member you might be knowing no one gave us engine for Marut.Then you will ask how come they help for ALH? Answer is: There is difference between Helo and Fighter Aircraft. Its like USA can help us to make Cargo Ship but will not help us to make Aircraft carrier or SSBN/SSN.

Since SAAB already was making planes, Brits has no issue in giving consultation, while India was potential market , No one like to destroy own market.


Another hurdle was Geopolitics, It was Bajpai era when we adopted "look west policy". The Clinton era was when ice melted. 

Afterall we all know you are Biggest LCA troll ..

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Black Widow said:


> Dear @sancho ,
> 
> Then you will ask how come they help for ALH? Answer is: There is difference between Helo and Fighter Aircraft. Its like USA can help us to make Cargo Ship but will not help us to make Aircraft carrier or SSBN/SSN.


 Even in the case of ALH, the consultant left in the middle and our guys had to do everything on their own. We did JV for the engines and still even today we are dependent on the french for the engine.

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## nomi007



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## IND151

Tejas FOC : Miles to go | idrw.org


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi




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## IND151

Early retirement of Mig-27 helping Lca Tejas growth | idrw.org


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## kurup

*Early retirement of Mig-27 helping Lca Tejas growth*






Recently Ministry of Defence have indicated that bulk of Mig-21 and Mig-27 which forms 14 combat squadrons will be replaced by home grown Tejas fighter aircrafts and most of Mig-21 and Mig-27 operated by IAF are deployed on western front and Eastern front .

Indian Air force operates largest fleet of Mig-27 in the world but the Strike aircraft Inducted almost decades later then Mig-21 might make an early exist along with Mig-21, IAF operates about 80 (four squadrons) of these soviet-origin planes in its fleet and due to the recurring problems in their R-29s engines, it had to ground them on many occasion in past few year, one famous crash was in kargil war when an MiG-27 engine ingested gases from the onboard gunfire, resulting in disrupted airflow to the engine, MiG-27 was operating at low speeds at high altitude which lead to compressor stall even when aircraft speed was on recommended side.

IAF later carried out detail inspection of many other cases of Mig-27 crashes related to engine flame out or malfunctioning over the years and the study revealed that R-29s powering Mig-27 had design defects which cannot be corrected even with direct Russian assistances.

India and Russia agreed that only way to fix the problem is to change the engine, a mig-27 was re-engined with AL-31F it is the same engine used on IAF’s Sukhoi su 30 MKI and was tested which lead to increased thrust by 1 ton, weight was reduced by 200 kg, fuel savings was up by 15 percent, but then IAF had another problem, workmanship on Mig-27 airframe was not the best and aircraft could had to be retired early anyway so the whole plan was dropped.

Early retirement of Mig-27 was not anticipated by IAF a decade ago and decade later plans to induct MMRCA aircrafts are still on paper , but misery of Mig-27 might actually help growth of Tejas in IAF , recent admission by MOD indicates that order of Tejas likely will go up in near future . First of the Mig-27 to be phased out would be the two squadrons based in Kalaikunda by 2015 and remaining two deployed in Jodhpur would also be on their way out of the force by 2017.

IAF till now has ordered only to 6 Tejas squadrons, two squadrons of the Tejas Mark-1, and four squadrons of the Tejas Mark II, That means it’s about about 120 aircrafts for IAF. Indian navy will also order 40-50 Naval LCA based on Mark-2, so if there is increase in the order Tejas production line will have to be revamped and upgraded to delivery higher number of aircrafts Per year. According to Indian air force sources close to idrw.org, IAF plans to secure western front with Pakistan and Eastern front with china by operating combo of Tejas and Sukhoi 30 fighter aircrafts in near future and replacing bulk of Mig-21 and Mig-27 operated in western and eastern front with home grown fighter jet.

But HAL’s Production line is geared up to deliver 16 Tejas a year only , so if IAF does place orders for more 6 or 8 squadrons of Tejas then HAL will require a second production line which can deliver around 16 more aircrafts a year . Problem is if IAF sticks to Tejas MK2, then MK2 which likely will enter production only post 2020 this will still leave IAF under strength for at least another decade to come.

Either IAF will have to order more Tejas MK-1 from current order of 40 to 60 so that production line which likely will become idle for a year or two before MK2 goes into production remains active and extra aircraft will help form another squadron or place higher orders for Tejas MK-2 so that second Production line could be in place by HAL and sourcing of materials from industrial partners can lead to cheaper price tag due to large order . bigger production line for Tejas will also help India secure export orders if any comes by , it will be interesting to see which road IAF will take to keep squadron strength up .

Early retirement of Mig-27 helping Lca Tejas growth | idrw.org


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## trident2010

As with all Indian defense purchases, the no.s always certainly grows once the first order is made. Same will happen with Tejas


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## Superboy

I heard SP-1 and SP-2 cannot be added to No. 45 Squadron because they are not IOC-2 standard, only SP-3 and SP-4 which roll off the lines next year would be the first two operational Tejas. Can anyone confirm?


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## KRAIT

Thread going on since 2005. Now its 2014. Damn.


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## IndoUS

KRAIT said:


> Thread going on since 2005. Now its 2014. Damn.


KRAIT, do you go on vacation or something, I see you on forum for couple of months then you disappear for sometime.

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## rockstarIN

Superboy said:


> I *heard* SP-1 and SP-2 cannot be added to No. 45 Squadron because they are not IOC-2 standard, only SP-3 and SP-4 which roll off the lines next year would be the first two operational Tejas. Can anyone confirm?



From where you got information? your inner sense?



Superboy said:


> I *heard* SP-1 and SP-2 cannot be added to No. 45 Squadron because they are not IOC-2 standard, only SP-3 and SP-4 which roll off the lines next year would be the first two operational Tejas. Can anyone confirm?



From where you got information? your inner sense?


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## SRP

*Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017 *











As you may have noticed, they've managed to get the engine wrong! It's the GE-F414, not the F404.

Livefist: Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017

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## KRAIT

IndoUS said:


> KRAIT, do you go on vacation or something, I see you on forum for couple of months then you disappear for sometime.


Naah..nothing like that. Have been busy in real life, except FB.

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## Superboy

rockstarIN said:


> From where you got information? your inner sense?
> 
> 
> 
> From where you got information? your inner sense?






> The first two aircraft (SP-1, SP-2) might not meet our standards for squadron formation as the metal cutting and hardware were done before we froze the IOC-2 test points. We will raise the first Tejas squadron with four aircraft starting from SP-3 to SP-6,” a top source said. The IAF will use SP-1 and SP-2 for evaluation flight to be undertaken by the test pilots of Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE). The limited series production variants LSP-7 and LSP-8 too will be used for evaluation flights by the IAF.




Tejas Induction into Air Force to Take More Time -The New Indian Express

Looks like SP-3 and SP-4 be the first two operational Tejas when they are ready next year.


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## Sri

desert warrior said:


> *Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you may have noticed, they've managed to get the engine wrong! It's the GE-F414, not the F404.
> 
> Livefist: Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017



Thanks for the info, but hey what happened to first flight in 2015 Q1, Why 2 more years of delay. When ADA/HAL know that MK2 is what Forces want why they are delaying it even further, Not sure if this would be relevant for forces beyond 2025 ( I mean they should ideally induct the all the 8 squads by that time).
Seniors any thoughts?


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## nik22

KRAIT said:


> Naah..nothing like that. Have been busy in real life, except FB.


I guess you did not like that Temporary Ban


----------



## Jayanta

desert warrior said:


> *Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you may have noticed, they've managed to get the engine wrong! It's the GE-F414, not the F404.
> 
> Livefist: Official Updated LCA Tejas Mk.2 Schematics, First Flight Target 2017




2017...too late for a 4th gen fighter.


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## Badbadman

2017.


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## h0mer

I hear Boeing's struggling at the moment to keep lines open. Would be a wise investment for India to renege on the Rafale and get the Superbugs instead. It would be very beneficial to the Indian Aeronautical Industry.

1.) Build up declining fighter jet numbers..... check
2.) Engine commonality between fighters (F414)...... check
3.) Get Boeing to help out with Tejas/Tejas MK2...... check
4.) Get product on time (if not ahead of schedule)..... check


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Jayanta said:


> 2017...too late for a 4th gen fighter.


why is that so?


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## trident2010

h0mer said:


> Would be a wise investment for India to renege on the Rafale and get the Superbugs instead. It would be very beneficial to the Indian Aeronautical Industry.
> 
> 1.) Build up declining fighter jet numbers..... check
> 2.) Engine commonality between fighters (F414)...... check
> 3.) Get Boeing to help out with Tejas/Tejas MK2...... check
> 4.) Get product on time (if not ahead of schedule)..... check




Reliant on US for offensive machines..... uncheck


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## h0mer

trident2010 said:


> Reliant on US for offensive machines..... uncheck



Buying C17's, C130's, Chinooks, Apaches, P8's, F404's & F414's..... check.


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## kurup

h0mer said:


> I hear Boeing's struggling at the moment to keep lines open. Would be a wise investment for India to renege on the Rafale and get the Superbugs instead. It would be very beneficial to the Indian Aeronautical Industry.
> 
> 1.) Build up declining fighter jet numbers..... check
> 2.) Engine commonality between fighters (F414)...... check
> 3.) Get Boeing to help out with Tejas/Tejas MK2...... check
> 4.) Get product on time (if not ahead of schedule)..... check



US won't be providing TOT to the level we want . So no SH .


----------



## h0mer

kurup said:


> US won't be providing TOT to the level we want . So no SH .



Neither will the French... watch them come up with some stupid reason to not do so. It will turn into another scorpene like project (you know where they offered their own AIP's in place of Indian ones and it shows up 10 years too late).. and for a country that's already suffering from diminishing squadron strength, you need numbers and you need it asap. 

While you won't get the full TOT on the SH, you will get access to Boeing. Tie the Tejas MK2 into the MRCA deal, stating that Boeing must help with the Tejas development concurrently. I'm sure Boeing would be more than thrilled to deliver super hornets and help out India with it's Tejas fighter and it's aeronautical industry. 

If this deal were made 10 years ago, yea I could see going for the Rafale. But now that it's pretty much well past it's due date, the Rafale deal will only set India back in the Aerospace industry. You may get the TOT (most likely not), but it'll be vastly outdated by the time you absorb the technologies behind it. Even though you won't get all the TOT behind the ASH, you will get an almost 5th generation fighter built in India, then you take that knowledge and apply it to the AMCA. That's a win-win for all parties.


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## trident2010

h0mer said:


> Buying C17's, C130's, Chinooks, Apaches, P8's, F404's & F414's..... check.



But they are not as critical as fighter planes. So yes for a time being buying large no.s of offensive machines .. uncheck.


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## kurup

h0mer said:


> Neither will the French... watch them come up with some stupid reason to not do so. It will turn into another scorpene like project (you know where they offered their own AIP's in place of Indian ones and it shows up 10 years too late).. and for a country that's already suffering from diminishing squadron strength, you need numbers and you need it asap.



In the scorpene project , the delay was due to MDL than French .



> While you won't get the full TOT on the SH, you will get access to Boeing. Tie the Tejas MK2 into the MRCA deal, stating that Boeing must help with the Tejas development concurrently. I'm sure Boeing would be more than thrilled to deliver super hornets and help out India with it's Tejas fighter and it's aeronautical industry.



Agree but the same can be provided by Dassault also .



> If this deal were made 10 years ago, yea I could see going for the Rafale. But now that it's pretty much well past it's due date, the Rafale deal will only set India back in the Aerospace industry. You may get the TOT (most likely not), but it'll be vastly outdated by the time you absorb the technologies behind it. Even though you won't get all the TOT behind the ASH, you will get an almost 5th generation fighter built in India, then you take that knowledge and apply it to the AMCA. That's a win-win for all parties.



What 5G technologies do ASH provide ??


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## rockstarIN

h0mer said:


> Neither will the French... watch them come up with some stupid reason to not do so. It will turn into another scorpene like project (you know where they offered their own AIP's in place of Indian ones and it shows up 10 years too late).. and for a country that's already suffering from diminishing squadron strength, you need numbers and you need it asap.
> 
> While you won't get the full TOT on the SH, you will get access to Boeing. Tie the Tejas MK2 into the MRCA deal, stating that Boeing must help with the Tejas development concurrently. I'm sure Boeing would be more than thrilled to deliver super hornets and help out India with it's Tejas fighter and it's aeronautical industry.
> 
> If this deal were made 10 years ago, yea I could see going for the Rafale. But now that it's pretty much well past it's due date, the Rafale deal will only set India back in the Aerospace industry. You may get the TOT (most likely not), but it'll be vastly outdated by the time you absorb the technologies behind it. Even though you won't get all the TOT behind the ASH, you will get an almost 5th generation fighter built in India, then you take that knowledge and apply it to the AMCA. That's a win-win for all parties.



Sorry, we do not want strings attached fighter jet. Tejas will evolve without Boeing help, even with delays as IAF is not much in dire need of Tejas now. It was good for IAF had it happened in 1998-2000.

And we learned a lot by producing jets under ToT in India for decades that where they can 'delay' the critical tech transfer.


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## MehrotraPrince

h0mer said:


> Neither will the French... watch them come up with some stupid reason to not do so. It will turn into another scorpene like project (you know where they offered their own AIP's in place of Indian ones and it shows up 10 years too late).. and for a country that's already suffering from diminishing squadron strength, you need numbers and you need it asap.
> 
> While you won't get the full TOT on the SH, you will get access to Boeing. Tie the Tejas MK2 into the MRCA deal, stating that Boeing must help with the Tejas development concurrently. I'm sure Boeing would be more than thrilled to deliver super hornets and help out India with it's Tejas fighter and it's aeronautical industry.
> 
> If this deal were made 10 years ago, yea I could see going for the Rafale. But now that it's pretty much well past it's due date, the Rafale deal will only set India back in the Aerospace industry. You may get the TOT (most likely not), but it'll be vastly outdated by the time you absorb the technologies behind it. Even though you won't get all the TOT behind the ASH, you will get an almost 5th generation fighter built in India, then you take that knowledge and apply it to the AMCA. That's a win-win for all parties.



Your argument for Boeing and involvement of US companies for Tejas development is far from truth.
1. Scorpene got delayed due to Indian company, it always take time to absorb the new technology which you don't have.
2. Lockheed will be far better than Boeing as far as fighter aircraft development is concerned, look at the US fighter competition itself.....who lost all recent fighter aircraft competition to Lockheed. So if its a matter of choice then why not go for best option.
3. France helped HAL to develop engine for Helicopter and gave 70% real TOT, US will not even give 10%.
4. We have quite good experience with US companies during sanction period, not only they stopped helping us but also confiscated our equipments for many years, due to that we had to start from scratch for many systems which delayed our project for more than 3-4 years.
5. We don't want foreign companies to dump their old technologies in name of TOT, this is the reason we said no to Kaveri engine joint development project. We wanted French to develop next gen engine tech with us, but they wanted to dump their 3rd gen engine tech, where as every other country like Russia, UK and American is either using 4th gen engine or switching to 5th gen engine technology.


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## proud_indian

MehrotraPrince said:


> 3. France helped HAL to develop engine for Helicopter and gave 70% real TOT, US will not even give 10%.


can you plz put some light on this?


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## kurup

proud_indian said:


> can you plz put some light on this?



Shakti engine used in Dhruv was co-developed by HAL with France .

_“The Shakti engine, developed jointly by Turbomeca (French) and HAL, develops almost 30 per cent more power compared to the TM 333-2B2 engine, with 19 per cent content of Indian development,” Mr Baweja said._

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited


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## MehrotraPrince

proud_indian said:


> can you plz put some light on this?





> There is an agreed transfer of technology plan with HAL for Ardiden1 (Shakti) in four phases. In phase 1, we provide the complete engine to HAL and in the following phases HAL will gradually manufacture. In the ultimate phase, *HAL will manufacture 70 per cent of the engine, with Turbomeca providing 30 per cent of smaller kits*.” On where the program was currently, Philippe said “it is between phase 1 and 2” and that the ultimate phase would depend on the helicopter development program of HAL.


 Year: 2012

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## MehrotraPrince

kurup said:


> Shakti engine used in Dhruv was co-developed by HAL with France .
> 
> _“The Shakti engine, developed jointly by Turbomeca (French) and HAL, develops almost 30 per cent more power compared to the TM 333-2B2 engine, with 19 per cent content of Indian development,” Mr Baweja said._
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited


You are quoting the Indian work portion, 19 % contribution was from indian side.
Total TOT agreement was for 70%, i.e. in phased manner France will transfer real TOT of engine, which is 70%. No one transfers 100% TOT, so we will be still dependent on France for rest 30% which could be overcome by only R&D.

We are already developing more powerful engine for our medium class helicopter which is purely indigenous effort from HAL and DRDO (please don't ask for link, it not in public knowledge, wait for couple of years you will know it).

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

MehrotraPrince said:


> We are already developing more powerful engine for our medium class helicopter which is purely indigenous effort from HAL and DRDO (please don't ask for link, it not in public knowledge, wait for couple of years you will know it).



tumhare muh me ghee shakkar !!



MehrotraPrince said:


> We are already developing more powerful engine for our medium class helicopter which is purely indigenous effort from HAL and DRDO (please don't ask for link, it not in public knowledge, wait for couple of years you will know it).



Will that replace shakti?


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## kurup

MehrotraPrince said:


> We are already developing more powerful engine for our medium class helicopter which is purely indigenous effort from HAL and DRDO (please don't ask for link, it not in public knowledge, wait for couple of years you will know it).



If that is the case , you revealing it in open is not good .


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## MehrotraPrince

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> tumhare muh me ghee shakkar !!
> 
> 
> 
> Will that replace shakti?


Both engines have different power bands, but yes after successful development of our desi engine, we will surely replace 30% french content from Shakti engine. But it will take time, my personal assumption is minimum 4-5 years or could be couple of years more (purely dependent upon how fast we put our desi engine in production mode).

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

MehrotraPrince said:


> Both engines have different power bands, but yes after successful development of our desi engine, we will surely replace 30% french content from Shakti engine. But it will take time, my personal assumption is minimum 4-5 years or could be couple of years more (purely dependent upon how fast we put our desi engine in production mode).


great!


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## MehrotraPrince

kurup said:


> If that is the case , you revealing it in open is not good .


Its not a top secret, only thing is that our yellow journalists are not interested in whats going inside our R&D agencies, they are more interested in spicy and mirch-masala news.

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## nik22

kurup said:


> If that is the case , you revealing it in open is not good .


Nothing secret about that. It is an engine anyway


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## kurup

MehrotraPrince said:


> Its not a top secret, only thing is that our yellow journalists are not interested in whats going inside our R&D agencies, they are more interested in spicy and mirch-masala news.





nik22 said:


> Nothing secret about that. It is an engine anyway



If the news is out in the open , no problem .

If it's classified , even if the tech in not some top secret , revealing it out in public without govt. consent is not good .


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## proud_indian

@kurup @MehrotraPrince @nik22 @jarves @Indo-guy 

this is what mr. Prasun K. Sengupta has to say on this

*1) No one is producing the Ardiden-1H/Shakti engines in India. They are only be licence-assembled & contain less than 10% of Made-in-India components. IPR for this engine is owned by SNECMA Moteurs/Turbomeca. 

HAL will go broke for good if it were to establish its own manufacturing line for any new-generation turboshaft or turbofan engine. Ardiden-1H/Shakti engine was never co-developed by HAL. HAL only supplied the Dhruv ALH’s engine compartment & gearbox blueprints so that the engine could be successfully mounted on the airframe. So far, GTRE has taken only the first few baby-steps by developing small turbofans like that used for Nirbhay & the Laghu Shakthi turbofan for a MALE-UCAV, while HAL has so far developed only the PTAE-7 turbojet. No one has so far even tried to design & build engines for helicopters or turboprop-powered aircraft.
TRISHUL: HAL's Light Utility Helicopter*

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## MehrotraPrince

proud_indian said:


> @kurup @MehrotraPrince @nik22 @jarves @IndoGuy
> 
> this is what mr. Prasun K. Sengupta has to say on this
> 
> *1) No one is producing the Ardiden-1H/Shakti engines in India. They are only be licence-assembled & contain less than 10% of Made-in-India components. IPR for this engine is owned by SNECMA Moteurs/Turbomeca.
> 
> HAL will go broke for good if it were to establish its own manufacturing line for any new-generation turboshaft or turbofan engine. Ardiden-1H/Shakti engine was never co-developed by HAL. HAL only supplied the Dhruv ALH’s engine compartment & gearbox blueprints so that the engine could be successfully mounted on the airframe. So far, GTRE has taken only the first few baby-steps by developing small turbofans like that used for Nirbhay & the Laghu Shakthi turbofan for a MALE-UCAV, while HAL has so far developed only the PTAE-7 turbojet. No one has so far even tried to design & build engines for helicopters or turboprop-powered aircraft.
> TRISHUL: HAL's Light Utility Helicopter*



He is known as Prasoon Chor Gupta, you know that?
Either you believe HAL + Safran or a yellow Journalist, its up to you.
Both links are before you, its for you to understand and decide who is correct and who is wrong?

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## jarves

kurup said:


> If that is the case , you revealing it in open is not good .


I read that in BR forum.


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## proud_indian

MehrotraPrince said:


> He is known as Prasoon Chor Gupta, you know that?
> Either you believe HAL + Safran or a yellow Journalist, its up to you.
> Both links are before you, its for you to understand and decide who is correct and who is wrong?



It might be your perception towards him.
What i think is, he is more informed than most of the desi journalists u r talkin abt.

you must come with some credible sources to back your claim rather than some internal sources
as engine development is not kind of classified technology that drdo has to hide from the world.


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## MehrotraPrince

proud_indian said:


> It might be your perception towards him.
> What i think is, he is more informed than most of the desi journalists u r talkin abt.
> 
> you must come with some credible sources to back your claim rather than some internal sources
> as engine development is not kind of classified technology that drdo has to hide from the world.



Either you are immature or have some comprehension problem.

Who is Prasoon Sengupta?
Some engineer/scientist working in Safran or HAL?
Was he involved in developmental work of Shakti engine?
Are officials from both reputed company lying?
Is website of Safran hacked where they gave detail about Shakti engine?
Where is source for Chor gupta's assumption?
I gave you all the links, they are from OEM's website, if you still can't understand then sorry no one can help you.


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## h0mer

MehrotraPrince said:


> Your argument for Boeing and involvement of US companies for Tejas development is far from truth.
> 1. Scorpene got delayed due to Indian company, it always take time to absorb the new technology which you don't have.
> 2. Lockheed will be far better than Boeing as far as fighter aircraft development is concerned, look at the US fighter competition itself.....who lost all recent fighter aircraft competition to Lockheed. So if its a matter of choice then why not go for best option.
> 3. France helped HAL to develop engine for Helicopter and gave 70% real TOT, US will not even give 10%.
> 4. We have quite good experience with US companies during sanction period, not only they stopped helping us but also confiscated our equipments for many years, due to that we had to start from scratch for many systems which delayed our project for more than 3-4 years.
> 5. We don't want foreign companies to dump their old technologies in name of TOT, this is the reason we said no to Kaveri engine joint development project. We wanted French to develop next gen engine tech with us, but they wanted to dump their 3rd gen engine tech, where as every other country like Russia, UK and American is either using 4th gen engine or switching to 5th gen engine technology.



1.) There will always be delays with the French when it comes to TOT.. the excuse machine keeps rolling.. I mean it's been what 10 years since the Scorpene deal was signed and not a single sub as of yet? I hear the first one won't arrive until 14 years after signing the contract and even that without AIP, the technology that was at the core of the TOT? If that's the case, then you have to really wonder, is TOT really worth it when it takes you 20 years to A.) get a critical force multiplier... and B.) Get the knowledge even after everyone else has it?

2.) Doesn't matter who's better between lockheed and boeing, both of them are betting that anything India has and right now Boeing is on the down-swing, why would you not want to take advantage of that?

3.) 70% only? And that for a helicopter engine that anyone should be able to make?

4.) Keep living in fear of sanctions, but this era is a whole new one. You have an opportunity to get a leader in the aeronautical industry to come in and help with your industry and you're just going to balk at it?

5.) If that was true, I pity the Indian heads of state. You should have taking the French offer of 3rd generation engine tech. You need to crawl before you walk and for a country that can barely build 1st generation SCB's, it would have been a huge boost in technological advancement for your Aero Industry.



trident2010 said:


> But they are not as critical as fighter planes. So yes for a time being buying large no.s of offensive machines .. uncheck.



fighter jet engines are the most critical part of a jet and you buy them in bulk from America... check.



MehrotraPrince said:


> Either you believe HAL + Safran or a yellow Journalist, its up to you.



So either we believe a procrastinator (HAL) or a liar (Prasun). Not giving me a lot of options here bud, both are just as stupid.


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## proud_indian

MehrotraPrince said:


> Either you are immature or have some comprehension problem.
> 
> Who is Prasoon Sengupta?
> Some engineer/scientist working in Safran or HAL?
> Was he involved in developmental work of Shakti engine?
> Are officials from both reputed company lying?
> Is website of Safran hacked where they gave detail about Shakti engine?
> Where is source for Chor gupta's assumption?
> I gave you all the links, they are from OEM's website, if you still can't understand then sorry no one can help you.



What link r u talking abt?
Have u given any link regarding secret engine development u are talking abt?
i don't buy such theories without any proof or reports.


----------



## MehrotraPrince

h0mer said:


> 1.) There will always be delays with the French when it comes to TOT.. the excuse machine keeps rolling.. I mean it's been what 10 years since the Scorpene deal was signed and not a single sub as of yet? I hear the first one won't arrive until 14 years after signing the contract and even that without AIP, the technology that was at the core of the TOT? If that's the case, then you have to really wonder, is TOT really worth it when it takes you 20 years to A.) get a critical force multiplier... and B.) Get the knowledge even after everyone else has it?
> 
> 2.) Doesn't matter who's better between lockheed and boeing, both of them are betting that anything India has and right now Boeing is on the down-swing, why would you not want to take advantage of that?
> 
> 3.) 70% only? And that for a helicopter engine that anyone should be able to make?
> 
> 4.) Keep living in fear of sanctions, but this era is a whole new one. You have an opportunity to get a leader in the aeronautical industry to come in and help with your industry and you're just going to balk at it?
> 
> 5.) If that was true, I pity the Indian heads of state. You should have taking the French offer of 3rd generation engine tech. You need to crawl before you walk and for a country that can barely build 1st generation SCB's, it would have been a huge boost in technological advancement for your Aero Industry.
> 
> 
> 
> fighter jet engines are the most critical part of a jet and you buy them in bulk from America... check.



Tell me when you go to market only to buy bread then will shopkeeper give you butter along with it? No
1. AIP was not the requirement when Scorpene deal was made. I don't know from where you got this information that AIP was part of TOT.
2. New technology always take time to materialize, especially in country like India who never manufactured Submarines from scratch on its own.
3. US never shares critical technologies with even close NATO countries leave India aside (F-35, F-22, engine technology, radar technology.....) We don't want technology such as how to make tyres for aircraft? or rudders for aircraft. We want AESA Radar technology, we want technology for at least present generation aircraft engine.
4. Show your superiority to your own people, we don't owe you anything. We already have 2nd gen engine technolgy (3rd gen is already in development) in testing phase, why would we allow foreign company to dump their 3rd gen engine tech for such a high price.

Live in fools paradise that India is country of rug and tug peoples who are living in caves. Your Boeing and many other European company are using few technologies which was developed for our Tejas program.



proud_indian said:


> What link r u talking abt?
> Have u given any link regarding secret engine development u are talking abt?
> i don't buy such theories without any proof or reports.



You are just trolling, this is my last reply for you.
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

http://www.spslandforces.com/news/?id=37&h=Turbomeca-strengthening-ties-with-Indian-operators

http://www.safran-group.com/site-safran-en/aerospace/aerospace-propulsion/helicopter-engines/ardiden-271/

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## trident2010

h0mer said:


> fighter jet engines are the most critical part of a jet and you buy them in bulk from America... check.



It is the critical part but its only one part and now IAF can buy 100's of them in surplus for future use but it is still one part not the full fighter jet .. uncheck


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## h0mer

trident2010 said:


> It is the critical part but its only one part and now IAF can buy 100's of them in surplus for future use but it is still one part not the full fighter jet .. uncheck



Thank you for agreeing with me.


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## proud_indian

MehrotraPrince said:


> You are just trolling, this is my last reply for you.
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
> 
> http://www.spslandforces.com/news/?id=37&h=Turbomeca-strengthening-ties-with-Indian-operators
> 
> http://www.safran-group.com/site-safran-en/aerospace/aerospace-propulsion/helicopter-engines/ardiden-271/



genius three of above links land me to same page and that doesn't s say anything abt that 70% of your tot claim
and neither I am interested in your useless trolling and baseless claims


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## trident2010

h0mer said:


> Thank you for agreeing with me.



Cheers mate !!


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## kurup

*Team Tejas for Mobile Telemetry System*







Racing towards final operational clearance (FOC) by the end of this year for the LCA Tejas Mk.1, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is looking for a fully integrated mobile telemetry system (MTS), comprising the entire system inside an air-conditioned shelter mounted on a truck platform.

In addition to the MTS currently stationed in Goa, the ADA is looking for a vendor or consortium to undertake the design, development, supply, installation, testing, commissioning, maintenance and operation of a new generation MTS. Major telemetry subsystems will be supplied by ADA, sourced separately. The MTS will need to be fully deployable anywhere in the country, and air transportable by Il-76 or C-17 Globemaster III.

The scope of work includes an air-conditioned container-style shelter with interiors, military grade diesel generator power system with UPS, antenna system (will be provided by ADA and shall be integrated onto the vehicle by the vendor with suitable telescopic masts), 19 rack mounted telemetry and communications subsystems, air conditioning systems (military grade), high performance vehicle, lighting and electrical system, monitoring stations and video displays and telescopic masts.

Team Tejas for Mobile Telemetry System | idrw.org

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## sudhir007

LCA Flight Status Update

2475th flight on 31 Jan 2014
TD1 : 233 TD2 : 305 PV1: 242 PV2: 222 PV3: 381 PV5: 36 LSP1: 74 LSP2: 290 LSP3: 183 LSP4: 110 LSP5: 246 LSP7: 77 LSP8 : 65 NP1: 11

2492nd flight on 21 Feb 2014
TD1 : 233 TD2 : 305 PV1: 242 PV2: 222 PV3: 381 PV5: 36 LSP1: 74 LSP2: 290 *LSP3: 191* LSP4: 110 LSP5: 246 LSP7: 77 *LSP8 : 73 NP1: 12*

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## kurup

*1st designated commanding officer of the IAF flies LSP 8*
*
28 Feb 2014: The LCA Tejas moved a step closer to its induction into the Indian Air Force when Wing Commander Vivart Singh flew the LSP 8 at the HAL Airport in Bangalore this morning.*





















1st designated commanding officer of the IAF flies LSP 8 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft

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## Black Widow

kurup said:


> *Team Tejas for Mobile Telemetry System*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Racing towards final operational clearance (FOC) by the end of this year for the LCA Tejas Mk.1, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is looking for a fully integrated mobile telemetry system (MTS), comprising the entire system inside an air-conditioned shelter mounted on a truck platform.
> 
> In addition to the MTS currently stationed in Goa, the ADA is looking for a vendor or consortium to undertake the design, development, supply, installation, testing, commissioning, maintenance and operation of a new generation MTS. Major telemetry subsystems will be supplied by ADA, sourced separately. The MTS will need to be fully deployable anywhere in the country, and air transportable by Il-76 or C-17 Globemaster III.
> 
> The scope of work includes an air-conditioned container-style shelter with interiors, military grade diesel generator power system with UPS, antenna system (will be provided by ADA and shall be integrated onto the vehicle by the vendor with suitable telescopic masts), 19 rack mounted telemetry and communications subsystems, air conditioning systems (military grade), high performance vehicle, lighting and electrical system, monitoring stations and video displays and telescopic masts.
> 
> Team Tejas for Mobile Telemetry System | idrw.org




I see this truck everyday while commuting to office

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## rockstarIN

kurup said:


> *1st designated commanding officer of the IAF flies LSP 8*
> *28 Feb 2014: The LCA Tejas moved a step closer to its induction into the Indian Air Force when Wing Commander Vivart Singh flew the LSP 8 at the HAL Airport in Bangalore this morning.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1st designated commanding officer of the IAF flies LSP 8 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft




Waiting to hear his comments..!!

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## kurup

Black Widow said:


> I see this truck everyday while commuting to office



If that is the case next time when you see the truck , take a good quality photo and post it here .


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## trident2010

Lets see what he thinks of Tejas. Any comments from him?


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## sudhir007

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


maa ki aakh kuch samaj me nahi aaya.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

*Latest Leh winter Trials*

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Code:


<iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" width="425" height="240" src="http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240"></iframe>


Check out the video 
http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240

http://cdn.smugmug.com/img/ria/SmugPlayer/2013110801.swf

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## Tangent

...What a Beauty !!!!!

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## Abingdonboy

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> <iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" width="425" height="240" src="http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240"></iframe>
> 
> 
> Check out the video
> http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240
> 
> http://cdn.smugmug.com/img/ria/SmugPlayer/2013110801.swf


Aside from the LCA, just the visuals in this vid are stunning, I mean literally breathtaking! Just.......WOW! 



@Parul ,@Dillinger @sancho

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## Parul

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> <iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" width="425" height="240" src="http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240"></iframe>
> 
> 
> Check out the video
> http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240
> 
> http://cdn.smugmug.com/img/ria/SmugPlayer/2013110801.swf



@Bhasad Singh Mundi Mundi Saab, Swad a gaya. 



Abingdonboy said:


> Aside from the LCA, just the visuals in this vid are stunning, I mean literally breathtaking! Just.......WOW!
> 
> 
> 
> @Parul ,@Dillinger @sancho



I've seen it flying closely with my naked eyes. I ain't know anything about Technalities, so I refrain from commenting on it.

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## Dash

For the first time I guess they have released such a video.....dil khush ho gaya


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## Srinivas

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>



Those hangers are located in Old Airport , Bangalore.


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## kurup

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Check out the video
> 
> http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240
> 
> http://cdn.smugmug.com/img/ria/SmugPlayer/2013110801.swf



Cannot see the second video .....


----------



## trident2010

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> <iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" width="425" height="240" src="http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240"></iframe>
> 
> 
> Check out the video
> http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/3103337112_4RFZBSC?width=425&height=240
> 
> http://cdn.smugmug.com/img/ria/SmugPlayer/2013110801.swf



Awesome views. Better than I expected from DRDO. Hope ISRO puts these sort of camera for their future launch. Makes you more engaged with the process.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Parul said:


> @
> 
> 
> I've seen it flying closely with my naked eyes. I ain't know anything about Technalities, so I refrain from commenting on it. :)



Where did you happen to see it then madam?


----------



## Parul

Abingdonboy said:


> Where did you happen to see it then madam?



Some fine days, i'll share couple of pics with you; then you'll yourself come to know where I saw it. Don't want to talk about it here.

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## Srinivas

I see LCA every week flying from old airport Bangalore ................

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Tangent said:


> ...What a Beauty !!!!!


watch the video!


Srinivas said:


> I see LCA every week flying from old airport Bangalore ................

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## Abingdonboy

Parul said:


> Some fine days, i'll share couple of pics with you; then you'll yourself come to know where I saw it. Don't want to talk about it here.


I look foreword to that day then

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## Indischer

Srinivas said:


> Those hangers are located in Old Airport , Bangalore.



They're adjacent to the runway. But the area belongs to HAL, not the airport. The opposite side of the runway, incidentally, belongs to Centre for Air-Borne Systems(CABS), the DRDO lab responsible for our AEW&C systems.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Superboy

SP-1 and SP-2 delivery by the end of this month?


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## kurup

* LCA Navy Will Long Remain Work in Progress *





A Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) for simulating STOBAR (Ski-jump Take-Off, But Arrested Recover) operations from the deck of an aircraft carrier has been operational for a while in Goa and is due to be formally commissioned later this month. The SBTF is already being used to train Navy pilots for INS Vikramaditya operations. In future it will be used to develop and certify LCA Navy before the aircraft's induction into the Navy on board Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) INS Vikrant, which is currently under construction at Cochin.

DRDO was to demonstrate LCA Navy's deck operation capability at SBTF, Goa by mid 2014, but that is not likely to happen. Progress in developing LCA Navy - which first flew in on April 27, 2012 - was first stymied by problems with its redesigned and strengthened undercarriage. We can now expect more delay on account of a need to tweak the LCA's Flight Control Software (FCS) to facilitate deck operations.

The LCA-Navy FCS was reportedly developed with assistance from National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) and validated by the US Navy. However, Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bengalure, has recently sought assistance to incorporate new features in OFP (Operation Flight Program) Software for LEVCON Air Data Computer (LADC), along with updates in the existing algorithms based on flight test results.

LCA Navy uses Levcons, active aerodynamic surfaces on the wing root leading edges, to control boundary layer flow and increase lift during low speeds. (LCA Tejas does not feature Levcons.)

LADC is part of Digital Fly by Wire FCS. The Quadruplex LADC would provide control logic and commands for the LEVCON actuation system, compute the control laws and mode logics for ski-jump, Auto throttle modes, Arrest hook systems etc. The computer also derives the necessary air data parameter required for the Flight Control System.

(After being augmented, LADC software would need more tweaks based on actual data generated in test flight.)

LCA Navy will feature hands-off take-off using ski-jump to ensure smooth transition to stable flight, and hands-off landing using steady AOA, autothrottle approach, flareless touchdown, and arrester hook engagement. During take-off and landing the pilot will be required to only give steering inputs to stay on the center line.

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: LCA Navy Will Long Remain Work in Progress

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## jarves

Will NLCA go through the same procedures like IOC,FOC like LCA?? @kurup


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## kurup

jarves said:


> Will NLCA go through the same procedures like IOC,FOC like LCA?? @kurup



It will have to , every fighter does.


----------



## jarves

kurup said:


> It will have to , every fighter does.


Ok what is the target year for IOC1???


----------



## skysthelimit

kurup said:


> LADC is part of Digital Fly by Wire FCS. The Quadruplex LADC would provide control logic and commands for the LEVCON actuation system, compute the control laws and mode logics for ski-jump, Auto throttle modes, Arrest hook systems etc. The computer also derives the necessary air data parameter required for the Flight Control System.
> (After being augmented, LADC software would need more tweaks based on actual data generated in test flight.)
> LCA Navy will feature hands-off take-off using ski-jump to ensure smooth transition to stable flight, and hands-off landing using steady AOA, autothrottle approach, flareless touchdown, and arrester hook engagement. During take-off and landing the pilot will be required to only give steering inputs to stay on the center line.


These seem like a lot of pretty advanced features - Do other carrier fighters like FA-18E/F, Mig29K have these capabilities?


----------



## Abingdonboy

skysthelimit said:


> These seem like a lot of pretty advanced features - Do other carrier fighters like FA-18E/F, Mig29K have these capabilities?


What systems are you talking about? FBW? FADEC? Arrestor hooks? Yes all naval fighters will have this these days....


I'm not sure about the auto/hands-free take off though, this sounds pretty unique and advanced (for ski-jump fighter a/c), I know the MIG-29K and SU-33 doesn't feature this and there are very few other advanced STOBAR configured fighters out there. As far as CATOBAR fighters go this is pretty common (as the catapult does most of the work and you will see when a Hornet or Rafale is launched off their ACCs the pilots have their hands on the sides of the cockpit-not on the controls).


----------



## proud_indian

jarves said:


> Ok what is the target year for IOC1???



*LCA Navy Will Long Remain Work in Progress*

A Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) for simulating STOBAR (Ski-jump Take-Off, But Arrested Recover) operations from the deck of an aircraft carrier has been operational for a while in Goa and is due to be formally commissioned later this month. The SBTF is already being used to train Navy pilots for INS Vikramaditya operations. In future it will be used to develop and certify LCA Navy before the aircraft's induction into the Navy on board Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) INS Vikrant, which is currently under construction at Cochin.

DRDO was to demonstrate LCA Navy's deck operation capability at SBTF, Goa by mid 2014, but that is not likely to happen. Progress in developing LCA Navy - which first flew in on April 27, 2012 - was first stymied by problems with its redesigned and strengthened undercarriage. We can now expect more delay on account of a need to tweak the LCA's Flight Control Software (FCS) to facilitate deck operations.

The LCA-Navy FCS was reportedly developed with assistance from National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) and validated by the US Navy. However, Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bengalure, has recently sought assistance to incorporate new features in OFP (Operation Flight Program) Software for LEVCON Air Data Computer (LADC), along with updates in the existing algorithms based on flight test results.

LCA Navy uses Levcons, active aerodynamic surfaces on the wing root leading edges, to control boundary layer flow and increase lift during low speeds. (LCA Tejas does not feature Levcons.)

LADC is part of Digital Fly by Wire FCS. The Quadruplex LADC would provide control logic and commands for the LEVCON actuation system, compute the control laws and mode logics for ski-jump, Auto throttle modes, Arrest hook systems etc. The computer also derives the necessary air data parameter required for the Flight Control System.

(After being augmented, LADC software would need more tweaks based on actual data generated in test flight.)

LCA Navy will feature hands-off take-off using ski-jump to ensure smooth transition to stable flight, and hands-off landing using steady AOA, autothrottle approach, flareless touchdown, and arrester hook engagement. During take-off and landing the pilot will be required to only give steering inputs to stay on the center line.

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: LCA Navy Will Long Remain Work in Progress

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## madmusti

Will India Export the Tejas ?


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## jarves

madmusti said:


> Will India Export the Tejas ?


Nobody will buy. 
But there is a possibility for Tejasmk2

@proud_indian Where does it talk about the time??


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## skysthelimit

Abingdonboy said:


> What systems are you talking about? FBW? FADEC? Arrestor hooks? Yes all naval fighters will have this these days....
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the auto/hands-free take off though, this sounds pretty unique and advanced (for ski-jump fighter a/c), I know the MIG-29K and SU-33 doesn't feature this and there are very few other advanced STOBAR configured fighters out there. As far as CATOBAR fighters go this is pretty common (as the catapult does most of the work and you will see when a Hornet or Rafale is launched off their ACCs the pilots have their hands on the sides of the cockpit-not on the controls).


Yes, I meant the various"auto" features.

And I don't think even the CATOBAR jets have hands-off landing capability. IN seems to be going the IAF way - looking for Gen 5+ features in a Gen 4 light fighter. They should get a first version out in operation, and then upgrade incrementally.

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## DARIUS

Came across this video on Tejas on youtube most probably in Mandarin.Chinese members could u please throw some light as to what is being discussed??

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## trident2010

Do they call India ..Hindu in Chinese?


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## DARIUS

trident2010 said:


> Do they call India ..Hindu in Chinese?


Yeah they do.Not only they but even the Middle Eastern's,Arabs and the Iranians call us the same.But when they do so they actually refer to ethnicity and not religion . . . even an Indian Muslim would be called the same.


----------



## 45'22'

DARIUS said:


> Yeah they do.Not only they but even the Middle Eastern's,Arabs and the Iranians call us the same.But when they do so they actually refer to ethnicity and not religion . . . even an Indian Muslim would be called the same.


yindoo or hindu


----------



## rockstarIN

DARIUS said:


> Came across this video on Tejas on youtube most probably in Mandarin.Chinese members could u please throw some light as to what is being discussed??


@Chinese-Dragon @cirr @Genesis


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## DARIUS

45'22' said:


> yindoo or hindu


They basically are trying to say Hindu but it comes out more like Yendo!!Heres an interview by Ahmedinejad ,just try and listen what he is referring to India as:





It is a well known fact that all great civilizations refer to each other by their ethniciies for eg. We refer ti Egypt as Misr which is the real Arabic name,Greece is referred to as Yunan and China as Chin.If u go to Iran or Egypt today they would only call u a Hindi,i.e. some one from Hind irrespective of religion.

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## Genesis

rockstarIN said:


> @Chinese-Dragon @cirr @Genesis


lol
what do you want to hear? I watched this episode, sometime ago. 

But seriously, this guy is an "Expert," I put quotes, cause I don't know his exact pedigree, but one of the guest not on this episode is a actual rear admiral at the naval academy with experience in European navies. But this guy's pretty good.

Now what he's saying is a few things, delays in the program, delays to the naval version and the naval version not as good as Mig 29. He commented on the 100 "mistakes" on the Tejas story, and said he didn't know the exact things, so it could be a hundred minor things, or a few major things, and the impact of each. He commented on JF-17 has been deployed and 50th fighter commissioned, and also on the quality, reviews as well as price of the JF-17.

He commented on the composite materials and the wide use in Indian aircraft may be too much. He made a reference to early JF-17 prototype and how it changed from wide use of composites to less, because of the unreliability of composites. These materials are glued together according to report, and if there's been a quality issue, it's impossible to tell before taking off and it could result in parts falling off. 

I don't follow Tejas as much so I can't comment on current status.


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## gslv mk3

Genesis said:


> He commented on the composite materials and the wide use in Indian aircraft may be too much. He made a reference to early JF-17 prototype and how it changed from wide use of composites to less, because of the unreliability of composites. These materials are glued together according to report, and if there's been a quality issue, it's impossible to tell before taking off and it could result in parts falling off.



Composites are unreliable?That was a nice joke.


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## trident2010

gslv mk3 said:


> Composites are unreliable?That was a nice joke.



They have to justify what they have

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## my2cents

trident2010 said:


> They have to justify what they have



Why does Tejas weigh so much with 75% composites?? Is it not easier and quicker to manufacture in bulk using metal alloys vs composites?


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## Agent_47



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## trident2010

Agent_47 said:


>



Looks nice in Mig-21 colours


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## halupridol

Agent_47 said:


>


where is this pic from??


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## Robinhood Pandey

halupridol said:


> where is this pic from??



May be its one of those two tejas that HAL was supposed to deliver to IAF by this month

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## kurup

LCA Flights update:

2510th flight on 14 Mar
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 194 LSP5: 252
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 36 LSP2: 293 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
NP1: 15 LSP8 : 74 


2495th flight on 28 Feb
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 191 LSP5: 248
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 36 LSP2: 290 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 77
NP1: 12 LSP8 : 74

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## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> LCA Flights update:
> 
> 2510th flight on 14 Mar
> TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 194 LSP5: 252
> TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 36 LSP2: 293 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
> NP1: 15 LSP8 : 74
> 
> 
> 2495th flight on 28 Feb
> TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 191 LSP5: 248
> TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 36 LSP2: 290 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 77
> NP1: 12 LSP8 : 74


About 1 flight a day isn't bad at all.



trident2010 said:


> Looks nice in Mig-21 colours


Don't like that at all. The standard IAF grey is just fine- I hope even the M2K-UPGs get this.


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## Water Car Engineer

Agent_47 said:


>





FYI, it's a mock up.


----------



## Hulk

Agent_47 said:


>


Anyone can please explain why this color gets chosen. I mean from camouflage purpose will yje sky type color not be better? What is the criteria used to finalize the color.


----------



## Indischer

trident2010 said:


> Do they call India ..Hindu in Chinese?


They call India as Indu, not Hindu.


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## Water Car Engineer

indianrabbit said:


> Anyone can please explain why this color gets chosen. I mean from camouflage purpose will yje sky type color not be better? What is the criteria used to finalize the color.




It's a old mock up. The picture is several years old. Nothing to do with the Tejas's coming out of production.



Indischer said:


> They call India as Indu, not Hindu.



It's Yindu. And Yindu, Indus, Hindu, etc, etc. have the same origin.


----------



## That Guy

gslv mk3 said:


> Composites are unreliable?That was a nice joke.


Actually, he's not completely wrong. Composite materials (if not manufactured correctly) are quite dangerous. Pakistan doesn't have much experience using such materials, not to mention the price, so Pakistan is better off with what it has currently. More composite materials will probably be used in future blocks, but for what Pakistan has (you have to admit) the vehicle is potent for what it's meant for with or without composites.

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## Genesis

gslv mk3 said:


> Composites are unreliable?That was a nice joke.


Composites are not unreliable themselves but the method of assembling them is.

India uses so much composite material, while the rest of the world don't, is it because India is the best fighter maker in the world....?


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Genesis said:


> Composites are not unreliable themselves but the method of assembling them is.
> 
> India uses so much composite material, while the rest of the world don't, is it because India is the best fighter maker in the world....?


Rest of the world dont?

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## The A-5

Genesis said:


> Composites are not unreliable themselves but the method of assembling them is.
> 
> India uses so much composite material, while the rest of the world don't, is it because India is the best fighter maker in the world....?



Eurofighter uses more composite material than LCA.

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## Superboy

Any updates on SP-1 and SP-2?


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## gslv mk3

That Guy said:


> Actually, he's not completely wrong. Composite materials (*if not manufactured correctly*) are quite dangerous. Pakistan doesn't have much experience using such materials, not to mention the price, so Pakistan is better off with what it has currently. More composite materials will probably be used in future blocks, but for what Pakistan has (you have to admit) the vehicle is potent for what it's meant for with or without composites.



Well I have heard of that.Anyway,the agency behind developing composite components for LCA is NAL,who has considerable expertise in developing composite components for aerospace (read ISRO).And it has mastered many sophisticated technologies like Carbon fiber Wing for LCA.


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## trident2010

Composites are the way to go.


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## sudhir007

Flight update:

From: 2510th flight on 14 Mar
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 194 LSP5: 252 TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 36 LSP2: 293 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
NP1: 15 LSP8 : 74 

To:* 2520*th flight on 24 Mar
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 *LSP3: 198* LSP5: 252 TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 37 LSP2: 294* LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
*NP1: 18 LSP8: 75*

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## thesolar65

Some body about delivery of first two planes? Supposed to be in March this year!!


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## BDforever

thesolar65 said:


> Some body about delivery of first two planes? Supposed to be in March this year!!


delayed again


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## rockstarIN

I think if team already flying lsp plat forms.


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## Janmejay

BDforever said:


> delayed again


Yeah the FOC will be delayed,I think that they will will get it by mid 2015.When they make moronic statements like it will be ready by *end* of the year they actually want to say that not before mid of next year.


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## kurup

*LCA Tejas naval variant of tests to Undergo in Goa soon*








The naval variant of the light combat aircraft (LCA) ‘Tejas’ will soon Undergo carrier compatibility tests at the newly commissioned shore-based test facility at the Indian naval base INS Hansa in Goa, the LCA’s program director Kota Harinarayana Told TOI on Friday . “Before we go to the ship, we-have to do something on the ground That is similar to the ship,” Said Harinarayana, while pointing out That the shore-based test facility is Primarily a ramp – similar to the ones on aircraft carriers – All which Facilitates ski-jump take-off and landing of a naval arrested This aircraft.

“The aircraft will go to the test facility in a month’s time,” he added. “Apart from Enabling carrier compatibility, the new facility Will aid certification of the LCA naval variant, All which is critical to the LCA’s future induction in the Indian Navy, “he said. The LCA (Navy) is India’s first indigenous efforts to build a carrier-borne naval fighter aircraft, a vital ingredient in the Navy’s expansion plans. It is designed to operate from the future indigenous aircraft carriers That The Indian Navy plan to acquire.

Harinarayana is Regarded as the chief architect of the LCA program, All which WAS Launched in 1980 as share of the plane to replace the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) aging fleet of MIG-21 aircraft. He spoke to TOI on the sidelines of a talk on ‘Aircraft designing in India’, Jointly Organised by the Centre for Advanced Strategic Studies and the Aeronautical Society of India. Former vice-chief of air staff Air Marshal (Retd) Bhushan Gokhale Chaired the event.

In December 2013, the IAF Gave icts operational clearance to the Air Force LCA variant aussi cleared and the same for full-scale output at the Hindustan Aeronautical Limited facility in Bangalore, Harinarayana said. “We expect the aircraft to be rolled out for induction into the Air Force later this year and hopefully the IAF Will raise an independent squadron for the LCA,” he said. Said He, “The IAF HAS Placed an initial order of 40 LCAs All which are to be Delivered over the next furnace to five years. WE HAVE Their (IAF’s) commitment for Reviews another 80 to 90 LCAs in future.

The Air Force and Navy Collectively require 200 LCAs. “ Harinarayana added That the LCA HAD aussi evinced keen interest from foreign countries. “However, our immediate focus is on meeting the Air Force and Navy’s requirement for the next three Supply to foreign countries remains a share-trading years., Hand-diplomatic matter, and May still take Some time to come through. The priority for now is to Enhance the Production and capacity to continue working on the LCA Mk-II variant, All which is expected to go operational in oven to five years Following flight and other tests.

“ He Conceded That Will Work Both LCA variants on the imported GE-404 engines as it Will take some more years for the indigenously Developed Kaveri engine to be ready for use in aircraft thesis. “We Still Have to fully accomplish achieve the reliability and performance of the Kaveri engine. We-have tested for 50 hours’ flying in a carrier transportation, we still aim to Improve-have,” he said.Apart from Enabling carrier compatibility, the new shore- based test facility Will aid certification of the LCA naval variant, All which is critical to the future LCA’s induction in the Indian Navy.

LCA Tejas naval variant of tests to Undergo in Goa soon | idrw.org

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## rockstarIN

NLCA test bed flew supersonic for the first time on 22...23 March 2014.

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## nomi007



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## Agent_47

-LCA mk2 design phase is complete
- First flight of LCA mk2 will be on 2017 and production starts on 2019.
-DRDO has invested in many engines, improved kavri will be avail by around 2020
Said tamilmani DG(aero) of DRDO on tarmak007 fan page.


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## he-man

Agent_47 said:


> -LCA mk2 design phase is complete
> - First flight of LCA mk2 will be on 2017 and production starts on 2019.
> -DRDO has invested in many engines, improved kavri will be avail by around 2020
> Said tamilmani DG(aero) of DRDO on tarmak007 fan page.



We have already ordered 99 ge 414 engines for mk2 so whats the point of fitting kaveri in mk2 now


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## Agent_47

he-man said:


> We have already ordered 99 ge 414 engines for mk2 so whats the point of fitting kaveri in mk2 now


For replacement,future orders and for learning how to make one.
Use your common sense.

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## he-man

Agent_47 said:


> For replacement,future orders and for learning how to make one.
> Use your common sense.



And u believe ada and drdo when they say they will improve it by 2020?

Its actually a variable cycle engine,only one has been produced experimentally by ge in 80's and maybe old al-41 for su-37 was vce too.

The point is they should have attempted a simple conventional fixed cycle,bypass ratio engine.

But as usual,these guys bit more they could chew.

But even if they deliver kaveri in 2020,its an awesome news


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## sancho

he-man said:


> We have already ordered 99 ge 414 engines for mk2 so whats the point of fitting kaveri in mk2 now



The aim is still to develop it for the LCA, but as a replacement of the GE 404 in the MK1s during MLU for example. However, Kaveri is still important for a possible Mig 29K upgraded, or for a possible AMCA development, so not going further with it would not make sense.

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## Black Widow

he-man said:


> We have already ordered 99 ge 414 engines for mk2 so whats the point of fitting kaveri in mk2 now




Even If Kaveri is ready today, It won't be commissioned.. Engine is core of a bird, No one has so courage to take such risk.. The Replacement will be gradual...

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## he-man

sancho said:


> The aim is still to develop it for the LCA, but as a replacement of the GE 404 in the MK1s during MLU for example. However, Kaveri is still important for a possible Mig 29K upgraded, or for a possible AMCA development, so not going further with it would not make sense.



I was just commenting on it being a vce and the mistake that it was.
We should have gone with an easier to build conventional engine.

But understand the biggest problem we face is metallurgy and its not gonna improve anytime soon


----------



## razgriz19

gslv mk3 said:


> Composites are unreliable?That was a nice joke.



Composites show no signs of stress or cracks, they just shatter all of a sudden.
Not to mention they are extremely hard to repair


----------



## Windjammer

Some interesting tweets from Alan Warnes regarding the LCA Tejas programme.


----------



## manojb

razgriz19 said:


> Composites show no signs of stress or cracks, they just shatter all of a sudden.
> Not to mention they are extremely hard to repair


Here's excellent read for composite v/s Al debate AERO - Boeing 787 from the Ground Up

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## TimeToScoot

One question regarding the Kaveri engine. If the AMCA were to be ready by the end of this year (hypothetically) will the present Kaveri engines with a thrust of around 80KN be sufficient for the fighter? Since it is going to be equipped with 2 such engines the total thrust would be 160KN. Would this be sufficient or are there other parameters that also need to be taken into consideration?

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## Black Widow

TimeToScoot said:


> One question regarding the Kaveri engine. If the AMCA were to be ready by the end of this year (hypothetically) will the present Kaveri engines with a thrust of around 80KN be sufficient for the fighter? Since it is going to be equipped with 2 such engines the total thrust would be 160KN. Would this be sufficient or are there* other parameters that also need to be taken into consideration*?




The most important parameter "Reliability". Even if Kaveri will be ready, unless it is proven reliable on testbeds , It won't and shouldnot be commissioned..

After completion Kaveri will need 3-4 Years of continuous testing on LCA Prototypes or AMCA Prototypes..


----------



## he-man

Black Widow said:


> The most important parameter "Reliability". Even if Kaveri will be ready, unless it is proven reliable on testbeds , It won't and shouldnot be commissioned..
> 
> After completion Kaveri will need 3-4 Years of continuous testing on LCA Prototypes or AMCA Prototypes..



I think its still overweight with low t/w ratio due to metullargical constraints.

Same is case with our cryogenic engine,low t/w,see the t/w of japanese or chinese cryos.

But its a vce anyway so even more difficult to produce as few countries have a prototype vce,forget about production variant.
Lets hope for the best

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## Jayanta

Come on its now 2014...and LCA is yet fully functional...I have now given up hope. Given a chance DRDO and HAL keep working on it till eternity.


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## he-man

Jayanta said:


> Come on its now 2014...and LCA is yet fully functional...I have now given up hope. Given a chance DRDO and HAL keep working on it till eternity.



Wait for some pro drdo and hal guys to come and bash you-HAL has been making a fool of everyone for quite some time now

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## TimeToScoot

> Come on its now 2014...and LCA is yet fully functional...I have now given up hope. Given a chance DRDO and HAL keep working on it till eternity.



Delays apart, how good will the final products be? The LCA MK2, LUH and Sitara?


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## Superboy

When will SP-1 and SP-2 roll off the line? That government mandate to have them manufactured by the end of March sure didn't work.


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Wait for some pro drdo and hal guys to come and bash you-HAL has been making a fool of everyone for quite some time now


Hopefully the next govt will bring in Pvt sector in R&D & reform these useless orgs 
Btw 
DRDO Aur HAL hai bekar
Abki baat Modi sarkar

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## jarves

TimeToScoot said:


> One question regarding the Kaveri engine. If the AMCA were to be ready by the end of this year (hypothetically) will the present Kaveri engines with a thrust of around 80KN be sufficient for the fighter? Since it is going to be equipped with 2 such engines the total thrust would be 160KN. Would this be sufficient or are there other parameters that also need to be taken into consideration?


No because Design has not been finalised yet so we dont know anything about specs and thereby thrust of engines required,and AMCA is a dead project so dont hope too much from it.
And Kaveri engine can sustain thrusts of 75 kn only and is oveweight also.It wont be certified in less than 3 years.



TimeToScoot said:


> Delays apart, how good will the final products be? The LCA MK2, LUH and Sitara?


LCAMK2-Too early to say anything.
LUH-Good and it is not a combat helicopter
Sitara-It is beyond joke.
LCH-Excellent,deadly,dont have words to describe its beauty
ALH Dhruv-Same as LCH


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## TimeToScoot

> No because Design has not been finalised yet so we dont know anything about specs and thereby thrust of engines required



150KN would not be enough for a fifth generation fighter? 



> and AMCA is a dead project so dont hope too much from it.



Why would you say this?


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## jarves

TimeToScoot said:


> 150KN would not be enough for a fifth generation fighter?


It totally depends on specs of fighter planes.


TimeToScoot said:


> Why would you say this?


Because IAF does not want this fighter but DRDO wants to devlop it for cutting the technological gap but there is a lot of burden and a lot of projects are going on like MTA,RTA,FGFA,Sitara,NLCA,LCAMK1,LCAMK2(leaving all the helicopters and UAV'S) so there are both funding and human resource's problems and currently all the projects are running behind schedule so they have been told to focus on current projects instead of venturing out for new projects.


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## he-man

jarves said:


> It totally depends on specs of fighter planes.
> Because IAF does not want this fighter but DRDO wants to devlop it for cutting the technological gap but there is a lot of burden and a lot of projects are going on like MTA,RTA,FGFA,Sitara,NLCA,LCAMK1,LCAMK2(leaving all the helicopters and UAV'S) so there are both funding and human resource's problems and currently all the projects are running behind schedule so they have been told to focus on current projects instead of venturing out for new projects.



It does not.
For meaningful supercruise above mach 1.4 we need good thrust.

But yeah t /w is the actual factor as rafale with total of 150 kn of wet thrust can carry same stuff as su-35 with 300 kn(8 tonnes)....due to lower weight.plus it can supercruise too


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## TimeToScoot

> Because IAF does not want this fighter but DRDO wants to devlop it for cutting the technological gap but there is a lot of burden and a lot of projects are going on like MTA,RTA,FGFA,Sitara,NLCA,LCAMK1,LCAMK2(leaving all the helicopters and UAV'S) so there are both funding and human resource's problems and currently all the projects are running behind schedule so they have been told to focus on current projects instead of venturing out for new projects.



Can you share a link to prove that the IAF does not want a 5th generation fighter? As for LCA, Sitara, HUL, Saras etc they're all in the last phases of development. The design work of the Advanced Medium combat aircraft has already started 'Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft by 2018' -The New Indian Express I think the first prototype will be ready by the same time the LCA Mk2 would be ready for induction. By 2025 the AMCA should be ready for induction. Am I too off the mark on this one?


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> Can you share a link to prove that the IAF does not want a 5th generation fighter? As for LCA, Sitara, HUL, Saras etc they're all in the last phases of development. The design work of the Advanced Medium combat aircraft has already started 'Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft by 2018' -The New Indian Express I think the first prototype will be ready by the same time the LCA Mk2 would be ready for induction. By 2025 the AMCA should be ready for induction. Am I too off the mark on this one?



U are way off the mark on everything except tejas mk2


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## TimeToScoot

> U are way off the mark on everything except tejas mk2



How could I be off the mark on everything when I've only made two claims? Lets see. LCA, Sitara, HUL, Saras are indeed in their last stages of development. Can't possibly be off the mark on this one. You probably disagree with "By 2025 the AMCA should be ready for induction" Let me push it ahead by 2-3 years say 2028. Agree/Disagree?


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## jarves

TimeToScoot said:


> Can you share a link to prove that the IAF does not want a 5th generation fighter? As for LCA, Sitara, HUL, Saras etc they're all in the last phases of development. The design work of the Advanced Medium combat aircraft has already started 'Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft by 2018' -The New Indian Express I think the first prototype will be ready by the same time the LCA Mk2 would be ready for induction. By 2025 the AMCA should be ready for induction. Am I too off the mark on this one?


Just read sticky threads in other Indian forums man,IAF has not rejected it but has not supported it also.Everybody knows that.

Yeah LCA is undergoing certification phase,major devlopments have been completed.

Sitara-It is beyond joke,Dont ask from me about it.

LUH-HAL has started working on LUH project from last year only.The deadline is 2018 but they are saying that they will complete it by 2015/2016(as they have completed other projects and gained experiences from it)

AMCA-The link you have shared wanted to convey that first prototype will be ready by 2028.There is difference bw induction and getting ready first prototype.Even if we manage to do that it will be a very good achievemnet and something to be proud of.


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## kurup

he-man said:


> Same is case with our cryogenic engine,low t/w,see the t/w of japanese or chinese cryos.



Can you explain this ??


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## he-man

kurup said:


> Can you explain this ??



Our engine is heavier compared to other nations per unit thrust.

Thats totally normal,as the metallurgy improves we will improve too.
Also we need to get the gas-generator type of cryo too,its more economical than the staged combustion ce-7.5 we currently have.

But isro is one psu that has made us proud


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## kurup

he-man said:


> *Our engine is heavier compared to other nations per unit thrust.*
> 
> Thats totally normal,as the metallurgy improves we will improve too.
> Also we need to get the gas-generator type of cryo too,its more economical than the staged combustion ce-7.5 we currently have.
> 
> But isro is one psu that has made us proud



Any figures to prove it ??


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## gslv mk3

he-man said:


> Also we need to get the gas-generator type of cryo too,its more economical than the staged combustion ce-7.5 we currently have.



Google CE 20.


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## TimeToScoot

@jarves, @he-man

I personally think India/DRDO/HAL are doing fine. Rome was not built in a day after all. What were India's achievements 5-7 years ago? No mars mission. No moon mission. No cryogenic engine. No Agni 4-5. No GSLV. and lots more. Before the baby can learn to run it has to learn to walk and I believe we're all way too impatient. India is after all only a $1.8 trillion economy. 



> But isro is one psu that has made us proud



Go back exactly an year when there was no mars mission and the cryogenic engine was still in the works. Would you have said the same thing? But yes, a lot can change within a year.


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## jarves

TimeToScoot said:


> @jarves, @he-man
> 
> I personally think India/DRDO/HAL are doing fine. Rome was not built in a day after all. What were India's achievements 5-7 years ago? No mars mission. No moon mission. No cryogenic engine. No Agni 4-5. No GSLV. and lots more. Before the baby can learn to run it has to learn to walk and I believe we're all way too impatient. India is after all only a $1.8 trillion economy.


I have faith in HAL but if they will fail to achieve FOC by mid 2016 then i will loose it.


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## sancho

Something interesting / rather disappointing from the chat between Tarmak007 and Dr K Tamilmani, DG (Aero), DRDO:



> Q: What is the total speed of tejas and will it be increased in tejas mk2?I have heard that tejas has speeds of upto mach1.6 ,is it true?
> 
> A: We have demostrated 1.6 M in LCA and the it is also the same for MK2



Tarmak007 | Facebook


If the MK2 remains at Mach 1.6 even with the higher thrust engine, it doesn't seems like much progress was achived in countering the weight and drag issues.


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> @jarves, @he-man
> 
> I personally think India/DRDO/HAL are doing fine. Rome was not built in a day after all. What were India's achievements 5-7 years ago? No mars mission. No moon mission. No cryogenic engine. No Agni 4-5. No GSLV. and lots more. Before the baby can learn to run it has to learn to walk and I believe we're all way too impatient. India is after all only a $1.8 trillion economy.
> 
> 
> 
> Go back exactly an year when there was no mars mission and the cryogenic engine was still in the works. Would you have said the same thing? But yes, a lot can change within a year.



I would have.
There is no comparison between isro and hal/drdo


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## sudhir007

Flight update:

From: 2520th flight on 24 Mar
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 198 LSP5: 252 
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 37 LSP2: 294 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
NP1: 18 LSP8: 75

To:
2532th flight on 05 April
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 *LSP3: 200 LSP5: 255*
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 39* LSP2: 294 LSP4: 110 *LSP7: 81*
*NP1: 19 LSP8 : 77*

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## Black Widow

he-man said:


> Our engine is heavier compared to other nations per unit thrust.
> Thats totally normal,as the metallurgy improves we will improve too.
> Also we need to get the gas-generator type of cryo too,its more economical than the staged combustion ce-7.5 we currently have.
> But isro is one psu that has made us proud



Kaveri

*Length:* 137.4 in (3490 mm)
*Diameter:* 35.8 in (910 mm)
*Dry weight:* 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]

_Military thrust (throttled)_: 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
_Full afterburner_: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)
GE404

*Length:* 154 in (3,912 mm)
*Diameter:* 35 in (889 mm)
*Dry weight:* 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)\

11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
*Snecma M88*
*
Length: 3538 mm (139.3 in)
Diameter: 696 mm (27.5 in) max
Dry weight: 897 kg (1,977 lb)

Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,250 lbf) dry, 75 kN (16,900 lbf) wet (afterburning)
*
I don't see Kaveri too inferior to a world class engine.. What say others?

Some Chinese engine (Data is given by communists, can't be trust, though I am posting it)


*Length:* 4.14 metres (13.6 ft)
*Diameter:* 1.02 metres (3 ft 4 in)
*Dry weight:* 1,135 kilograms (2,502 lb)

*Maximum thrust:* 51.2 kilonewtons (11,500 lbf) dry; 86.37 kilonewtons (19,420 lbf) with afterburner

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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> Kaveri
> 
> *Length:* 137.4 in (3490 mm)
> *Diameter:* 35.8 in (910 mm)
> *Dry weight:* 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]
> 
> _Military thrust (throttled)_: 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
> _Full afterburner_: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)
> GE404
> 
> *Length:* 154 in (3,912 mm)
> *Diameter:* 35 in (889 mm)
> *Dry weight:* 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)\
> 
> 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
> 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
> *Snecma M88*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Length: 3538 mm (139.3 in)
> 
> Diameter: 696 mm (27.5 in) max
> 
> Dry weight: 897 kg (1,977 lb)
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,250 lbf) dry, 75 kN (16,900 lbf) wet (afterburning)
> *
> I don't see Kaveri too inferior to a world class engine.. What say others?
> 
> Some Chinese engine (Data is given by communists, can't be trust, though I am posting it)
> 
> 
> *Length:* 4.14 metres (13.6 ft)
> *Diameter:* 1.02 metres (3 ft 4 in)
> *Dry weight:* 1,135 kilograms (2,502 lb)
> 
> *Maximum thrust:* 51.2 kilonewtons (11,500 lbf) dry; 86.37 kilonewtons (19,420 lbf) with afterburner




Its is the weight vs dry thrust that matters.

Kaveri - 1235kg - 52 kN (T.W - 9.4)
404 - 1036kg - 49 kN(T.W - 10.6)
M88 - 897kg - 50 kN (T.W - 12.54)
@sancho


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## Robinhood Pandey

Black Widow said:


> Kaveri
> 
> *Length:* 137.4 in (3490 mm)
> *Diameter:* 35.8 in (910 mm)
> *Dry weight:* 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]
> 
> _Military thrust (throttled)_: 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
> _Full afterburner_: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)
> GE404
> 
> *Length:* 154 in (3,912 mm)
> *Diameter:* 35 in (889 mm)
> *Dry weight:* 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)\
> 
> 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
> 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
> *Snecma M88*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Length: 3538 mm (139.3 in)
> 
> Diameter: 696 mm (27.5 in) max
> 
> Dry weight: 897 kg (1,977 lb)
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,250 lbf) dry, 75 kN (16,900 lbf) wet (afterburning)
> *
> I don't see Kaveri too inferior to a world class engine.. What say others?
> 
> Some Chinese engine (Data is given by communists, can't be trust, though I am posting it)
> 
> 
> *Length:* 4.14 metres (13.6 ft)
> *Diameter:* 1.02 metres (3 ft 4 in)
> *Dry weight:* 1,135 kilograms (2,502 lb)
> 
> *Maximum thrust:* 51.2 kilonewtons (11,500 lbf) dry; 86.37 kilonewtons (19,420 lbf) with afterburner



Weight Is the main issue with Kaveri.


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## narcon

sancho said:


> Something interesting / rather disappointing from the chat between Tarmak007 and Dr K Tamilmani, DG (Aero), DRDO:
> 
> 
> 
> Tarmak007 | Facebook
> 
> 
> If the MK2 remains at Mach 1.6 even with the higher thrust engine, it doesn't seems like much progress was achived in countering the weight and drag issues.



Because MK2 will have more weight than the present model.


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## narcon




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## Black Widow

rockstarIN said:


> Its is the weight vs dry thrust that matters.
> 
> Kaveri - 1235kg - 52 kN (T.W - 9.4)
> 404 - 1036kg - 49 kN(T.W - 10.6)
> M88 - 897kg - 50 kN (T.W - 12.54)
> @sancho




Correct, I agree our machine is not upto mark, But its not too much inferior to the counterparts.. Given a chance, it will become one of the best in class...


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## indiatester

rockstarIN said:


> Its is the weight vs dry thrust that matters.
> 
> Kaveri - 1235kg - 52 kN (T.W - 9.4)
> 404 - 1036kg - 49 kN(T.W - 10.6)
> M88 - 897kg - 50 kN (T.W - 12.54)
> @sancho


So is the problem metallurgy for us?


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## he-man

indiatester said:


> So is the problem metallurgy for us?



Not only that,we attempted a variable cycle engine instead of a conventional one.

But yeah our metallurgy is letting us down

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## narcon

he-man said:


> Not only that,we attempted a variable cycle engine instead of a conventional one.
> 
> But yeah our metallurgy is letting us down



Variable cycle jet engines are the future:
*"Superjet" variable cycle jet engine could power future fighter aircraft*
*




*

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## Peaceful Civilian

With mix of Israeli avionics , French system , powerful engine of U.S.A, Excessive Ram coating, Aesa radar, Tejas will become formidable fighter and best replacement of Migs 21. 
While Time is money.. IAF should speed up the process , create multiple production lines... It will be big achievement if IAF inducts 100 LCA mark II in 2020 and 75 LCA mark III till 2025.

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## thesolar65

Peaceful Civilian said:


> With mix of Israeli avionics , French system , powerful engine of U.S.A, Excessive Ram coating, Aesa radar, Tejas will become formidable fighter and best replacement of Migs 21.
> While Time is money.. IAF should speed up the process , create multiple production lines... It will be big achievement if IAF inducts 100 LCA mark II in 2020 and 75 LCA mark III till 2025.



You are talking about HAL? Where out of 1,00,000 work force(highest in the world) nearly 75-80% are useless!! They are just in for employment generation.

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## Sergi

thesolar65 said:


> You are talking about HAL? Where out of 1,00,000 work force(highest in the world) nearly 75-80% are useless!! They are just in for employment generation.


Are you sure about the data ??? Specifically 100000 work force ???

@sandy_3126


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> Are you sure about the data ??? Specifically 100000 work force ???
> 
> @sandy_3126


Today, HAL has 19 Production Units and 10 Research & Design Centres in 8 locations in India. The Company has an impressive product track record - *15* types of Aircraft/Helicopters manufactured with in-house R & D and *14* types produced under license. HAL has manufactured *over 3658 Aircraft/Helicopters*, *4178Engines, *Upgraded* 272 Aircraft *and overhauled over *9643 Aircraft *and *29775 Engines*.

As far as employees, I don't recall the exact number, I am sure you might find that on google, As far as the other members remark about use of the employees, I am not sure how to respond to such mature observations. That is beyond my intellect



thesolar65 said:


> You are talking about HAL? Where out of 1,00,000 work force(highest in the world) nearly 75-80% are useless!! They are just in for employment generation.



How many people do you know from HAL?

33,990 @Sergi looks like that is the number

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## he-man

thesolar65 said:


> You are talking about HAL? Where out of 1,00,000 work force(highest in the world) nearly 75-80% are useless!! They are just in for employment generation.



They are not useless but are working under fixed income with no job threat or incentive to perform better.
Its the hallmark of any indian public company,not just hal

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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> Correct, I agree our machine is not upto mark, But its not too much inferior to the counterparts.. Given a chance, it will become one of the best in class...


Yes it is an achieve meet. That's our first engine. But we left it there. Engines development will take more than a decade for testing etc.so we should try to build a new one as well as try to build one as jg. Preferably with French or Japanese.


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## Donatello

Is Tejas flying?


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## rockstarIN

Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?



No, turned into a sub marine programme and under sea trails.

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## Sergi

Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?


Sir Think tank will you be more precise on what you want to mean ???


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## Donatello

rockstarIN said:


> No, turned into a sub marine programme and under sea trails.



The way IN is going, it might be an option.



Sergi said:


> Sir Think tank will you be more precise on what you want to mean ???



Yes.

Does it have combat clearance?

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## Abingdonboy

Donatello said:


> The way IN is going, it might be an option.


Some senior "think tank" trolling there...



Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?


All you have to do is go back *one* page:



sudhir007 said:


> Flight update:
> 
> From: 2520th flight on 24 Mar
> TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 198 LSP5: 252
> TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 37 LSP2: 294 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 79
> NP1: 18 LSP8: 75
> 
> To:
> 2532th flight on 05 April
> TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 *LSP3: 200 LSP5: 255*
> TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 39* LSP2: 294 LSP4: 110 *LSP7: 81
> NP1: 19 LSP8 : 77*

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## MilSpec

Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?


trolling?


----------



## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Its is the weight vs dry thrust that matters.



First it must achieve these aimed thrust levels, which wasn't clear. Then the mentioned overweight, or that the French can get roughly the same thrust, out of an engine that has also a smaller diameter, which shows that there is still a technical gap. And before we have an engine that we can fit into any fighter for ground and flight tests, we have nothing anyway, which makes comparing it to other engines at this stage moot.



Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?



If you meant if it got IAF clearance, then yes, IOC 2 since last december, induction of first fighters planned for this year, FOC for next year.


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## thesolar65

@Sergi and @sandy_3126 , Actually I came to know about the number from another DF (idf to be precise). And my friend works in Koraput. No, he does not know about full strength of HAL. But what he said is this. 

Recently due to some policy the ITI technicians gets to "work" overtime and take pay. Here work means no work. Some bachelor ITIs (foreman, Technicians etc.) even take there tooth brush along to the factory and stay there overnight and claim payment doing nothing. Engineers cannot do that.

The promotions are judged by the HR Dept from Bangalore. Even if you are worthy and your boss flavors you, he can do nothing. But in the event of any breakdown you will be called who know how to fix, not the person who got promoted.

There are seniors (I would not mind calling them quota) who knows nothing, but will argue for ego sake. For example one said there is no starter in 400 volt category, only 220 volt. Another said they have worked with more that 1 Power factor. Many would be seen pacing around from one block to another with some file with them as if they are working.

And about Indigenistaion of Sukhoi, the less said is better!!. The cost of Sukhoi imported is far less than what is the cost here, because of the above factor. As many as 20% of the work force just loiter around, busy planning how to get extra payment from OT, Canteen and other things.

I read from idf that Dassault has got only 11000 work force out of which 3400 are dedicated for Rafale. I don't know the truth, bu if that is true then....

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## MilSpec

thesolar65 said:


> @Sergi and @sandy_3126 , Actually I came to know about the number from another DF (idf to be precise). And my friend works in Koraput. No, he does not know about full strength of HAL. But what he said is this.
> 
> I read from idf that Dassault has got only 11000 work force out of which 3400 are dedicated for Rafale. I don't know the truth, bu if that is true then....




Well, in an organisation the divide usually is 10-80-10...
10% of workforce in most of the organisation are slackers/complainers/oozing negative energy
80% of the Workforce is hardworking people who do their quota of assigned work, earn a honest living and go home
10% of the Workforce are the change agents, innovators, busybees whose goal is progress, betterment, and improvement.

Now in an organisation if the management doesn't engage and empower this 10% of change agents, then the 80% of workforce starts emulating the rest of the 10% slackers....

On the other hand if the 10% of the change agents or the rockstars of the workforce are highly engaged by the management, then the rest of 80% of the workforce is engaged, productive and organisational directive is positive.

one of the major flaws in HAL and some other DPSU's is timescale promotion, or promotion based o seniority. Once that changes and management is more agile these marginal issues are easy to handle.

But as a suggestion, next time when you comment about an organisation, about which you hear from a friend who works in Engine Division, get all the facts, and do not grossly generalize. There a thousands of engineers and managers in HAL who have dedicated their lives in the service of the nation. maligning their efforts is due to half baked information is not just an insult to their endeavors but also a dis-service to your patriotic fellow countrymen.

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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> Well, in an organisation the divide usually is 10-80-10...
> 10% of workforce in most of the organisation are slackers/complainers/oozing negative energy
> 80% of the Workforce is hardworking people who do their quota of assigned work, earn a honest living and go home
> 10% of the Workforce are the change agents, innovators, busybees whose goal is progress, betterment, and improvement.
> 
> Now in an organisation if the management doesn't engage and empower this 10% of change agents, then the 80% of workforce starts emulating the rest of the 10% slackers....
> 
> On the other hand if the 10% of the change agents or the rockstars of the workforce are highly engaged by the management, then the rest of 80% of the workforce is engaged, productive and organisational directive is positive.
> 
> one of the major flaws in HAL and some other DPSU's is timescale promotion, or promotion based o seniority. Once that changes and management is more agile these marginal issues are easy to handle.
> 
> But as a suggestion, next time when you comment about an organisation, about which you hear from a friend who works in Engine Division, get all the facts, and do not grossly generalize. There a thousands of engineers and managers in HAL who have dedicated their lives in the service of the nation. maligning their efforts is due to half baked information is not just an insult to their endeavors but also a dis-service to your patriotic fellow countrymen.



Dude its just a typical psu,don't expect wonders from it.plus it gets 50 pc of the workforce from quotas only so what do u expect?

We don't even have the best people working at psu's

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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Dude its just a typical psu,don't expect wonders from it.plus it gets 50 pc of the workforce from quotas only so what do u expect?
> 
> We don't even have the best people working at psu's


Well "Dude", 
You are a know it all, but I unfortunately dont know about all the psu's and don't know what a typical psu is.... 

Comparing different organisations, their field of work, their challenges and their problems might be a piece of cake for you but is not that easy with my minimal intellect. So I do not know what to expect....

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## thesolar65

sandy_3126 said:


> Well, in an organisation the divide usually is 10-80-10...
> 10% of workforce in most of the organisation are slackers/complainers/oozing negative energy
> 80% of the Workforce is hardworking people who do their quota of assigned work, earn a honest living and go home
> 10% of the Workforce are the change agents, innovators, busybees whose goal is progress, betterment, and improvement.
> 
> Now in an organisation if the management doesn't engage and empower this 10% of change agents, then the 80% of workforce starts emulating the rest of the 10% slackers....
> 
> On the other hand if the 10% of the change agents or the rockstars of the workforce are highly engaged by the management, then the rest of 80% of the workforce is engaged, productive and organisational directive is positive.
> 
> one of the major flaws in HAL and some other DPSU's is timescale promotion, or promotion based o seniority. Once that changes and management is more agile these marginal issues are easy to handle.
> 
> But as a suggestion, next time when you comment about an organisation, about which you hear from a friend who works in Engine Division, get all the facts, and do not grossly generalize. There a thousands of engineers and managers in HAL who have dedicated their lives in the service of the nation. maligning their efforts is due to half baked information is not just an insult to their endeavors but also a dis-service to your patriotic fellow countrymen.



Its alright, but when you hear such injustice etc, it makes your blood boil...I am a patriotic nationalist thinking person. I could not stand to these type of things and therefore I left my Govt. job and started my own. I know a lot of men who were frustrated by the way of work, promotion, rewards that they left the job. I know there are many hard working people out there and because of them these organization survives. Many wants to leave, but they are scared what to do next?



he-man said:


> Dude its just a typical psu,don't expect wonders from it.plus it gets 50 pc of the workforce from quotas only so what do u expect?
> 
> We don't even have the best people working at psu's



Its a "Hands Up" Situation!!

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## he-man

thesolar65 said:


> Its alright, but when you hear such injustice etc, it makes your blood boil...I am a patriotic nationalist thinking person. I could not stand to these type of things and therefore I left my Govt. job and started my own. I know a lot of men who were frustrated by the way of work, promotion, rewards that they left the job. I know there are many hard working people out there and because of them these organization survives. Many wants to leave, but they are scared what to do next?
> 
> 
> 
> Its a "Hands Up" Situation!!



I raised these issues here last year but no one gives a hoot.
U will see the usual suspects coming here and justifying what hal or drdo is doing.

HAL just like AIR INDIA is a cash cow for people attached with it

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## Sergi

Donatello said:


> Yes.
> 
> Does it have combat clearance?



IOC-2 has been achieved. And IAF is busy evaluating the birds and testing them to limits. FOC is aimed at early next year


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## Joe Shearer

"The usual suspects" divide rather neatly into two categories: those who 'automatically' run down PSUs, and don't want to spend any time or energy considering balancing factors, and those who jump to their defence. These are organisations which run more or less like others, and it is their ownership that is the main, although not the only, distinguishing factor.

Remarks like



he-man said:


> HAL just like AIR INDIA is a cash cow for people attached with it



don't add much to our knowledge about these places.

'Joe Shearer'
(former CEO in a joint venture with HAL, where he saw the dark underbelly of HAL, as well as the inspiring commitment and dedication of a significant minority)

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## he-man

Joe Shearer said:


> "The usual suspects" divide rather neatly into two categories: those who 'automatically' run down PSUs, and don't want to spend any time or energy considering balancing factors, and those who jump to their defence. These are organisations which run more or less like others, and it is their ownership that is the main, although not the only, distinguishing factor.
> 
> Remarks like
> 
> 
> 
> don't add much to our knowledge about these places.
> 
> 'Joe Shearer'
> (former CEO in a joint venture with HAL, where he saw the dark underbelly of HAL, as well as the inspri



The problem with u guys is u think we don't know how hal or drdo works which sadly is not the case.

I do have first hand info on how things are done there.

And for ur info I have contributed my fair share on this forum regarding equipment of su-30,35,mig-29k,rafale etc so yeah I do know what I am saying.

The problem lies in people who think hal/drdo can improve.without privatisation nothing is gonna change.its the same situation with govt hospital,try visiting one to diff it from private one.

And lastly we are losing our talented ppl from hal/drdo due to payscale related issues,that needs fixing too.

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## DacterSaab

he-man said:


> But yeah t /w is the actual factor as rafale with total of 150 kn of wet thrust can carry same stuff as su-35 with 300 kn(8 tonnes)....due to lower weight.plus it can supercruise too



I'm pretty sure the engines of Su-35 are designed to supercruise.


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## somnath

Defence News - Tejas MK2 design phase complete , second Naval Lca Soon : DRDO


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## Black Widow

Donatello said:


> Is Tejas flying?




No its walking ...


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> I'm pretty sure the engines of Su-35 are designed to supercruise.



They don't give exact figures.no
So its suspect at best.
Other thing is poor engine life of only 4000 hours.

But yeah the articles do mention it can supercruise


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## IND151

Tejas MK2 design phase complete , second Naval Lca Soon : DRDO | idrw.org


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## he-man

IND151 said:


> Tejas MK2 design phase complete , second Naval Lca Soon : DRDO | idrw.org



Again for what?
Naval lca is uber waste of resources,on the other hand mk2 is necessary for us


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Again for what?
> Naval lca is uber waste of resources,on the other hand mk2 is necessary for us



Especially with the recently mentioned timeline:

- LCA MK2 first flight 2017
- LCA MK2 production start 2019
- production of N-LCA MK2 only beyond 2019
- AMCA first flight 2020
- possible AMCA production start ~2025?

So if they would develop AMCA as a carrier fighter right away, IN could get a medium class 5th gen fighter just 5 to 6 years after N-LCA would be available. If they focus on commonality to FGFA's techs and systems, they could even get it ready faster, which makes N-LCA totally useless!

Best option remains:

- N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator (for indigenous naval R&D)
- additional Mig 29K to provide Vikramaditya and IAC1 at least 30 x fighters as a cost-effective stop gap
- indigenous AESA + Kaveri engine for upgraded Mig 29Ks
- AMCA carrier fighter, developed for CATOBAR and STOBAR operations on Vikramaditya, IAC1 and 2 in large numbers!!!

*LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN !!!*

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## rockstarIN

@sancho since the thrust level of RD-33 and Kaveri is almost same (though difference in weight and size, can't we at least use Kaveri for a twin engine AMCA or integrate into Mig-29k? (Kaveri as the current configuration?)


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> @sancho since the thrust level of RD-33 and Kaveri is almost same (though difference in weight and size, can't we at least use Kaveri for a twin engine AMCA or integrate into Mig-29k? (Kaveri as the current configuration?)



No for AMCA, yes for Mig 29K, if we can make Kaveri more mature and upgrade the AB thrust a little more (important for ski-jump take off). For AMCA the changes needed are far higher, SC capability, TVC, around 100kN AB thrust, at least 65kN dry...and that is not achivable on our own at the moment. Sadly however we tent to give more importance on integrating an indigenous engine on an indigenous fighter, for PR reasons, while it would help our forces far more to replace Russian engines with an indigenous alternative, even if the platform is "only" the Mig 29K.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> No for AMCA, *yes for Mig 29K*, if we can make Kaveri more mature and upgrade the AB thrust a little more (important for ski-jump take off). For AMCA the changes needed are far higher, SC capability, TVC, around 100kN AB thrust, at least 65kN dry...and that is not achivable on our own at the moment. Sadly however we tent to give more importance on integrating an indigenous engine on an indigenous fighter, for PR reasons, while it would help our forces far more to replace Russian engines with an indigenous alternative, even if the platform is "only" the Mig 29K.




The size /weight difference will not be a bottleneck for Kaveri in current configuration?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> The size /weight difference will not be a bottleneck for Kaveri in current configuration?



According to the reports from last year, there are plans to test the Kaveri on a Russian Mig 29 this year, which means either size is no issue, or the changes are minor issues. If the dry thrust of Kaveri is around the 52kN as the goal was, it should counter the higher weight compared to the RD33.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> According to the reports from last year, there are plans to test the Kaveri on a Russian Mig 29 this year, which means either size is no issue, or the changes are minor issues. If the dry thrust of Kaveri is around the 52kN as the goal was, it should counter the higher weight compared to the RD33.


Any ideas on the fuel efficiency, service life, cost of the Kaveri vs the RD 33-MK?No doubt the Kaveri on the IN's MIG-29Ks would be an awesome achievement but the general rule of inducting new pieces of kit is that it is better than what it is replacing.I would hate to see the Kaveri be inducted purely as a PR exercise and be inferior in certain matrixes wrt to the RD-33 this would not only hurt the IN but also the Kaveri project as a whole.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Especially with the recently mentioned timeline:
> 
> - LCA MK2 first flight 2017
> - LCA MK2 production start 2019
> - production of N-LCA MK2 only beyond 2019
> - AMCA first flight 2020
> - possible AMCA production start ~2025?
> 
> So if they would develop AMCA as a carrier fighter right away, IN could get a medium class 5th gen fighter just 5 to 6 years after N-LCA would be available. If they focus on commonality to FGFA's techs and systems, they could even get it ready faster, which makes N-LCA totally useless!
> 
> Best option remains:
> 
> - N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator (for indigenous naval R&D)
> - additional Mig 29K to provide Vikramaditya and IAC1 at least 30 x fighters as a cost-effective stop gap
> - indigenous AESA + Kaveri engine for upgraded Mig 29Ks
> - AMCA carrier fighter, developed for CATOBAR and STOBAR operations on Vikramaditya, IAC1 and 2 in large numbers!!!
> 
> *LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN !!!*


U are right but unfortunately our planning is the pinnacle of stupidity.

Amca by all accounts and reports coming is more or less dead in the forseable future at least.also we don't have enough money to pursue mk2 along with amca.

Best idea now is to allocate huge resources(by huge I mean huge)on

1)aesa,indigenous and not some modification or off shelf 2052 or something similar

2)engine-start another engine with better and refined design as soon as possible.
Keep working on kaveri

3)critical subsystems like irst,pods and jammers.

4)software at least should be totally indian.

5)start designing chips based on ARM architecture to be used in mission computers,radars etc.we lack chip fabrication plants but can pay taiwanese or other south korean cos to manufacture these for us!

6)start privatisation of HAL


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Especially with the recently mentioned timeline:
> 
> - LCA MK2 first flight 2017
> - LCA MK2 production start 2019
> - production of N-LCA MK2 only beyond 2019
> - AMCA first flight 2020
> - possible AMCA production start ~2025?
> 
> So if they would develop AMCA as a carrier fighter right away, IN could get a medium class 5th gen fighter just 5 to 6 years after N-LCA would be available. If they focus on commonality to FGFA's techs and systems, they could even get it ready faster, which makes N-LCA totally useless!
> 
> Best option remains:
> 
> - N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator (for indigenous naval R&D)
> - additional Mig 29K to provide Vikramaditya and IAC1 at least 30 x fighters as a cost-effective stop gap
> - indigenous AESA + Kaveri engine for upgraded Mig 29Ks
> - AMCA carrier fighter, developed for CATOBAR and STOBAR operations on Vikramaditya, IAC1 and 2 in large numbers!!!
> 
> *LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN !!!*


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Any ideas on the fuel efficiency, service life, cost of the Kaveri vs the RD 33-MK?No doubt the Kaveri on the IN's MIG-29Ks would be an awesome achievement but the general rule of inducting new pieces of kit is that is is better than what it is replacing.I could hate to see the Kaveri be inducted purely as a PR exercise and be inferior in certain matrixes tot he RD-33 this would not only hurt the IN but also the Kaveri project as a whole.



I mean why are we believing hal on kaveri?

If the engine is good(i doubt it) then we will see,no need to speculate


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> I mean why are we believing hal on kaveri?
> 
> If the engine is good(i doubt it) then we will see,no need to speculate


YAWN.....do you ever have anything useful to contribute?

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> YAWN.....do you ever have anything useful to contribute?



At least not speculating something impossible like u

There is a limit to being a fanboy


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## Agent_47

@sancho Can We develop a fighter for botj CATOBAR and STOBAR operations ? Is there any current examples? What will be the differences?


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## Joe Shearer

he-man said:


> The problem with u guys is u think we don't know how hal or drdo works which sadly is not the case.
> 
> I do have first hand info on how things are done there.



Really? Employee perhaps? Or just based on a pair of good binoculars and a strategic location near the HAL airport?



he-man said:


> And for ur info I have contributed my fair share on this forum regarding equipment of su-30,35,mig-29k,rafale etc so yeah I do know what I am saying.



And for your information, nobody talked about how much you had posted, presumably that being your idea of a contribution. The comment was about stereotyped views and prejudices.



he-man said:


> The problem lies in people who think hal/drdo can improve.without privatisation nothing is gonna change.its the same situation with govt hospital,try visiting one to diff it from private one.
> 
> And lastly we are losing our talented ppl from hal/drdo due to payscale related issues,that needs fixing too.



So your visits to government hospitals have been downers, therefore public sector will have to be privatised?

Tell me, since you are an expert on the subject, which private sector enterprise spends even a fraction of the public sector on design and development, forget about research and development?

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## Echo_419

thesolar65 said:


> @Sergi and @sandy_3126 , Actually I came to know about the number from another DF (idf to be precise). And my friend works in Koraput. No, he does not know about full strength of HAL. But what he said is this.
> 
> Recently due to some policy the ITI technicians gets to "work" overtime and take pay. Here work means no work. Some bachelor ITIs (foreman, Technicians etc.) even take there tooth brush along to the factory and stay there overnight and claim payment doing nothing. Engineers cannot do that.
> 
> The promotions are judged by the HR Dept from Bangalore. Even if you are worthy and your boss flavors you, he can do nothing. But in the event of any breakdown you will be called who know how to fix, not the person who got promoted.
> 
> There are seniors (I would not mind calling them quota) who knows nothing, but will argue for ego sake. For example one said there is no starter in 400 volt category, only 220 volt. Another said they have worked with more that 1 Power factor. Many would be seen pacing around from one block to another with some file with them as if they are working.
> 
> And about Indigenistaion of Sukhoi, the less said is better!!. The cost of Sukhoi imported is far less than what is the cost here, because of the above factor. As many as 20% of the work force just loiter around, busy planning how to get extra payment from OT, Canteen and other things.
> 
> I read from idf that Dassault has got only 11000 work force out of which 3400 are dedicated for Rafale. I don't know the truth, bu if that is true then....



Now I admit that I don't know much about these defense & stuff like you do 
But these are policy things you are talking about only a serious govy can try to reform these PSUs

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## he-man

Joe Shearer said:


> Really? Employee perhaps? Or just based on a pair of good binoculars and a strategic location near the HAL airport?
> 
> 
> 
> And for your information, nobody talked about how much you had posted, presumably that being your idea of a contribution. The comment was about stereotyped views and prejudices.
> 
> 
> 
> So your visits to government hospitals have been downers, therefore public sector will have to be privatised?
> 
> Tell me, since you are an expert on the subject, which private sector enterprise spends even a fraction of the public sector on design and development, forget about research and development?



U must be joking right!
Otherwise even trying to defend hal/drdo on any grounds is a joke of highest order


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> U must be joking right!
> Otherwise even trying to defend hal/drdo on any grounds is a joke of highest order


@he-man, you seem to have too high standards that no one can meet. Most folks here agree that PSU's are not the most optimal machines. But coming to think of it, which unit is?
If we list down all the industries in India and actually look at what was an original creation, we will be hard pressed to find one.
While self-critique is important, self-loathing is not.

HAL/DRDO etc are only a reflection of how good we are as a nation. Just about average and not great.

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## he-man

indiatester said:


> @he-man, you seem to have too high standards that no one can meet. Most folks here agree that PSU's are not the most optimal machines. But coming to think of it, which unit is?
> If we list down all the industries in India and actually look at what was an original creation, we will be hard pressed to find one.
> While self-critique is important, self-loathing is not.
> 
> HAL/DRDO etc are only a reflection of how good we are as a nation. Just about average and not great.



Thats where u are wrong mate.
We have such good talent that we can achieve 10 times more,but due to faulty planning we are so far behind.
No changes have been made in seats allocation in medical and engineering colleges for decades now.
Then psu structure has remained literally same for 65 years with no accountability whatsover.

The guys are good but management sucks and thats the issue here.if we don't change we are gonna loose a lot of more time eventually,u may curse me,call me pakistani but whatever,i am not here to smooth talk.


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> Thats where u are wrong mate.
> We have such good talent that we can achieve 10 times more,but due to faulty planning we are so far behind.
> No changes have been made in seats allocation in medical and engineering colleges for decades now.
> Then psu structure has remained literally same for 65 years with no accountability whatsover.
> 
> The guys are good but management sucks and thats the issue here.if we don't change we are gonna loose a lot of more time eventually,u may curse me,call me pakistani but whatever,i am not here to smooth talk.



I'll sound clichéd but, if there is talent, it will come out.
There are enough universities and institutes in India that have employed good people who have time to kill. Do you see exceptional papers coming out?
Has our pharma industry come out with a decent molecule yet? And it is not for the lack of encouragement.
What exceptional ideas have come out of our IT industry? Surely there is enough talent and funding.

Like you said, we don't have good management. But you are missing the point that management has to be exceptional and it will come from the crop of the good guys.

We are all in this together. Hence constructive/positive criticism is far better (that is not smooth talk) rather than negative criticism.

We have digressed enough from HAL Tejas here. I'll stop trying to correct you further (for now).

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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Thats where u are wrong mate.
> We have such good talent that we can achieve 10 times more,but due to faulty planning we are so far behind.
> No changes have been made in seats allocation in medical and engineering colleges for decades now.
> Then psu structure has remained literally same for 65 years with no accountability whatsover.
> 
> The guys are good but management sucks and thats the issue here.if we don't change we are gonna loose a lot of more time eventually,u may curse me,call me pakistani but whatever,i am not here to smooth talk.



Go work for reliance or tata and transform them into aerospace entities, or go and reform PSU's with your uber management skills. 

Although off topic, I would indeed like to know you credentials? what is your educational and professional background? You seem to know how all PSU work, how many have you worked for? You also have tall claims on design, tell us about your design proficiency, how many design projects have you led or have been a part of?



Joe Shearer said:


> Really? Employee perhaps? Or just based on a pair of good binoculars and a strategic location near the HAL airport?
> 
> 
> 
> And for your information, nobody talked about how much you had posted, presumably that being your idea of a contribution. The comment was about stereotyped views and prejudices.
> 
> 
> 
> So your visits to government hospitals have been downers, therefore public sector will have to be privatised?
> 
> Tell me, since you are an expert on the subject, which private sector enterprise spends even a fraction of the public sector on design and development, forget about research and development?



Pagol-e ki na bole, Chagol-e ki na Khai

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## he-man

indiatester said:


> I'll sound clichéd but, if there is talent, it will come out.
> There are enough universities and institutes in India that have employed good people who have time to kill. Do you see exceptional papers coming out?
> Has our pharma industry come out with a decent molecule yet? And it is not for the lack of encouragement.
> What exceptional ideas have come out of our IT industry? Surely there is enough talent and funding.
> 
> Like you said, we don't have good management. But you are missing the point that management has to be exceptional and it will come from the crop of the good guys.
> 
> We are all in this together. Hence constructive/positive criticism is far better (that is not smooth talk) rather than negative criticism.
> 
> We have digressed enough from HAL Tejas here. I'll stop trying to correct you further (for now).



Its cool man,but due to derth of spacf here I cannot make my point.
Small points

1)we don't have truckloads of talent due to skewed ratio in colleges.

For medical alone 80000 mbbs doctors give exam for 5000 seats!and then govt says we have poor health indicators and no doctors.

For engineering graduation at least 12 lakh students give aieee every year vying for approx 50000 good seats,out of which only upto rank 15000-20000 can get into nit's which are best after iit's.

On the top of this 50 pc of these are quota students and should (under ideal conditions )never be there.

2)payscale matters.

After doing md medicine I will get like 1 lakh per month(studying at least for 8 1/2 years and if u drop u invariably spend around 10 years).

So I will start earning after I am 26 or so.

In engineering too due to shitty salaries of hal/drdo they will never get the top talent 

A clerk in govt office earns about 40000 per month doing nothing!


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Any ideas on the fuel efficiency, service life, cost of the Kaveri vs the RD 33-MK?No doubt the Kaveri on the IN's MIG-29Ks would be an awesome achievement but the general rule of inducting new pieces of kit is that it is better than what it is replacing.I would hate to see the Kaveri be inducted purely as a PR exercise and be inferior in certain matrixes wrt to the RD-33 this would not only hurt the IN but also the Kaveri project as a whole.



Of course it can't be inducted only because it's Indian, but doesn't need to be better and more capable automatically too. We often aim way too high and want to develop a world class engine or radar right away and when that fails the excuse is always the same, it was the first try. But when we would look at things a bit more rational and take on realistic goals, like developing Kaveri to the required dry thrust level and as close to the 90kN of the RD 33MK as possible, it would be an achievement as well. Our techs currently don't neet to be better than what they replace, but as good as they are! Further improvement comes with time and shouldn't be forced. That's why I do believe that we can mature Kaveri K9 on our own and might even get 85 to 90kN AB thrust, which still is not enough to power LCA MK2, nor AMCA, but would be enough for the Mig. The main advantage then would be, full freedom of modifications, upgrades, or maintenance, or no later cost increases!



Agent_47 said:


> @sancho Can We develop a fighter for botj CATOBAR and STOBAR operations ? Is there any current examples? What will be the differences?



The difference for both is only the way the fighters would take off, the landing system is the same. However, to take off via catapult the airfram and especially the front gear must be much more strengthened, while a fighter that takes off via ski-jump gets only basic navalisation for the arrested landing.
On the other side, taking off via ski-jump requires a good TWR and enough power to get the aircraft in the air. So you need to develop a fighter aimed on catobar carriers, but with good flight performance, to take off from STOBAR carriers too.

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## Joe Shearer

sandy_3126 said:


> Go work for reliance or tata and transform them into aerospace entities, or go and reform PSU's with your uber management skills.
> 
> Although off topic, I would indeed like to know you credentials? what is your educational and professional background? You seem to know how all PSU work, how many have you worked for? You also have tall claims on design, tell us about your design proficiency, how many design projects have you led or have been a part of?
> 
> 
> 
> Pagol-e ki na bole, Chagol-e ki na Khai



LOL!

Thanks; that lightened things up.

I'm sick of Bharat Rakshak drop-outs who come out here seeking attention that they can't get there, and marching to a single drum-beat: the useless PSUs. These PSUs are useless, but they need their own solutions, not these plastic-bottomed heroics by jerks who haven't done a day's work in their own lives. 

If we were to go by their intonations, we would be stuck with the equivalent of the Ambassador; that's what happened last time the private sector was given protection, encouragement and a free hand. DC 3 Dakota Mk XVII, anyone?

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## he-man

Joe Shearer said:


> LOL!
> 
> Thanks; that lightened things up.
> 
> I'm sick of Bharat Rakshak drop-outs who come out here seeking attention that they can't get there, and marching to a single drum-beat: the useless PSUs. These PSUs are useless, but they need their own solutions, not these plastic-bottomed heroics by jerks who haven't done a day's work in their own lives.
> 
> If we were to go by their intonations, we would be stuck with the equivalent of the Ambassador; that's what happened last time the private sector was given protection, encouragement and a free hand. DC 3 Dakota Mk XVII, anyone?



Seeing ur stupid and pathetic views u should probably vote for aap or cpim with hardcore leftist thinking.

Nothing more to say really,some ppl just don't get it.the older they are the more stubborn they get.

Go and check the accounts of Bel,bhel,nhpc and then come here and spread ur stupidity.

Majority of servers and modems used by mtnl,bsnl etc are chinese,forget about anything meaningful.

As for ordnance factory board,hal,drdo they survive on tot jobs.

Tejas is at least 50 pc imported with almost all critical subsystems being imported.we couldn't even make a simple pulse doppler radar.

Dhruv is 90 pc imported acc to 2011 cag report,read that and come here.

People like u have ruined the nation with ur thinking and vision

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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Seeing ur stupid and pathetic views u should probably vote for aap or cpim with hardcore leftist thinking.
> 
> Nothing more to say really,some ppl just don't get it.the older they are the more stubborn they get.
> 
> Go and check the accounts of Bel,bhel,nhpc and then come here and spread ur stupidity.
> 
> Majority of servers and modems used by mtnl,bsnl etc are chinese,forget about anything meaningful.
> 
> As for ordnance factory board,hal,drdo they survive on tot jobs.
> 
> Tejas is at least 50 pc imported with almost all critical subsystems being imported.we couldn't even make a simple pulse doppler radar.
> 
> Dhruv is 90 pc imported acc to 2011 cag report,read that and come here.
> 
> People like u have ruined the nation with ur thinking and vision



Refrain from Slander and personal attacks...


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> Refrain from Slander and personal attacks...



He started it but ok sorry if anyone minds it.


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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> He started it but ok sorry if anyone minds it.


I have read his post, and there is nothing in it that calls for slanderous personal attack...


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> I have read his post, and there is nothing in it that calls for slanderous personal attack...



All right man,i said sorry 
And I say it again.

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## thesolar65

@sandy_3126, @he-man, @Joe Shearer @indiatester @Srinivas @gslv mk3,

This thread supposed to be discussing technical aspect. I also posted something in the heat of the moment regarding HAL. Actually we can open a new thread "For and against PSUs". We can all share some of our experience while working in PSUs and Private Industry. I have worked for three and half years in two PSUs (one central and one state). But let us discuss Tejas only here.

In that thread "hum apna dil ka bhadas nikal sakte hain"!!

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Can We develop a fighter for botj CATOBAR and STOBAR operations ? Is there any current examples? What will be the differences?



Although no operational examples exist study has proven that Rafale can operate in STOBAR conditions without additional modifications.

F-35B should also be able to operate in STOBAR config if it is retrofitted with arrestor hook of F-35C

If I remember correctly even the Sea Gripen was aimed to operate in both STOBAR and CATOBAR configs although am not sure about the status of the program


----------



## he-man

thesolar65 said:


> @sandy_3126, @he-man, @Joe Shearer @indiatester @Srinivas @gslv mk3,
> 
> This thread supposed to be discussing technical aspect. I also posted something in the heat of the moment regarding HAL. Actually we can open a new thread "For and against PSUs". We can all share some of our experience while working in PSUs and Private Industry. I have worked for three and half years in two PSUs (one central and one state). But let us discuss Tejas only here.
> 
> In that thread "hum apna dil ka bhadas nikal sakte hain"!!



I am taking the lead and saying sorry for the third time

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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> Although no operational examples exist study has proven that Rafale can operate in STOBAR conditions without additional modifications.
> 
> F-35B should also be able to operate in STOBAR config if it is retrofitted with arrestor hook of F-35C



Any news whether iac-2 will be catobar or stobar?


----------



## Robinhood Pandey

Astra Mk-2 ( sorry if posted earlier ?












@sandy_3126 @Abingdonboy

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## sudhir007

Naval- LCA Completes first Supersonic Flight | idrw.org
According to Press Release by Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA ) Developers of Light combat aircraft ( LCA ) they have informed that Naval-LCA NP-1 on 22-March-2014 successfully completed its first supersonic flight and according to sources close to idrw.org NP-1 achieved Mach 1.1 in its first supersonic flight Naval Prototype ( NP-1 ) was grounded for more than a year after its first flight in 27 April 2012 and at that point had carried out only Four flights during initial period of testing . 

NP-1 was later grounded to carry out weight reduction measures on undercarriage and also to fix issues with its landing gears
NP-1 resumed test flight only in november last year and according to DRDO and ADA officials all Structural issues and Problems related to NP-1 have been fixed and further testing are under way to check and validate modification and changes which has been carried out on the aircraft .Till 5th of this month , NP-1 has successfully carried out 19 test flights and once first phase of testing on Naval LCA are completed in Bangalore , ADA will move NP-1 aircraft to INS Hansa Naval base in Goa to carry out second phase of testing which will involve takeoff and landing on Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) which is replica of India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant being built at Kochi.

SBTF, which was commissioned recently, is primarily used for flight testing of Naval aircraft that operate from aircraft carriers. This is also makes India among Elite Nation since this third such facility in the world, after the United States and Ukraine. Naval Mig-29k pilots are already getting training for aircraft Carrier launch and landing from this facility and soon NP-1 will join in for more testing of the aircraft .

DRDO also is working on Single-seat LCA MK 1 Naval variant ( NP-2) for carrier operations , which is already under construction and will be ready for first flight by year end . Navy already has placed orders for 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft based on N-LCA MK-1 configuration which mostly likely will be used for Pilot training before N-LCA MK-2 which will be powered by more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine will only be ready by 2018-19 .


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## Roybot

sandy_3126 said:


> *Refrain from Slander and personal attacks...*



No offence, but you should practice what you preach. If this is not personal attack against @he-man then I don't know what is.

*Pagol-e ki na bole, Chagol-e ki na Khai
*

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## he-man

Roybot said:


> No offence, but you should practice what you preach. If this is not personal attack against @he-man then I don't know what is.
> 
> *Pagol-e ki na bole, Chagol-e ki na Khai
> *



These guys hunt in pack of wolves,i am used to it yaar.


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## MilSpec

Roybot said:


> No offence, but you should practice what you preach. If this is not personal attack against @he-man then I don't know what is.
> 
> *Pagol-e ki na bole, Chagol-e ki na Khai*



Not slander but misconstrued humor for joe, where Me and Joe are the pagol and others are the experts... thus we like chagol are eating personal unsubstantiated drivel, and our remarks are more or less useless.

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## IND151

Naval- LCA Completes first Supersonic Flight | idrw.org


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## DacterSaab

he-man said:


> Any news whether iac-2 will be catobar or stobar?



A way off topic question there's another sticky thread for ACs hope I'm not breaking any rules by replying.

Last I heard IAC-2 is still in design phase and the design is not yet frozen. It will most probably be CATOBAR with steam catapults ( better when used with nuclear propulsion due to the steam produced as a byproduct by it.).

US is ready to offer EMALS ( better when used with diesel electric propulsion ) but the technology is under development would be considerably more expensive and also delay the project further and I'm not sure it'll come with No Strings Attached ( really can't afford to sign inspection rights or restriction on usage of our most advanced capital ship ) that's partly why I would literally pay the Navy to use Rafale from IAC-2 until AMCA is ready and not JSF or Super Hornets.


----------



## kurup

DacterSaab said:


> A way off topic question there's another sticky thread for ACs hope I'm not breaking any rules by replying.
> 
> Last I heard IAC-2 is still in design phase and the design is not yet frozen. It will most probably be CATOBAR with steam catapults ( better when used with nuclear propulsion due to the steam produced as a byproduct by it.).
> 
> US is ready to offer EMALS ( better when used with diesel electric propulsion ) but the technology is under development would be considerably more expensive and also delay the project further and I'm not sure it'll come with No Strings Attached ( really can't afford to sign inspection rights or restriction on usage of our most advanced capital ship ) that's partly why I would literally pay the Navy to use Rafale from IAC-2 until AMCA is ready and not JSF or Super Hornets.



1. EMALS is already developed and is a part of USS Gerald R Ford

2. Even if steam catapult is selected , still the technology will come from US


----------



## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> Any news whether iac-2 will be catobar or stobar?


CATOBAR 100% although not officially confirmed.


----------



## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> CATOBAR 100% although not officially confirmed.



Its a problem as we won't get catapults or emals without any strings attached


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> Its a problem as we won't get catapults or emals without any strings attached


No one else in the world is making CATOBAR tech- EMALS or Steam. If the French who are equally as insistent on maintaining their autonomy as India, can get Steam catapult tech from the US then I don't see why India should be overly reluctant. The fact of the matter is the US is the unchallenged world leader in ACC tech, every other nation is DECADES behind. Even if the IAC-2 was to be STOBAR configured a significant amount of high end tech would be coming from the US from integrated deck management systems to signalling equipment, engines, ship management systems etc etc 


The IN can't make a state of the art ACC without bits and pieces from the US- this is a entirely mandatory.


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## nomi007

*To all my all Indian members*
*




 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=715545218508931




*

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> No one else in the world is making CATOBAR tech- EMALS or Steam. If the French who are equally as insistent on maintaining their autonomy as India, can get Steam catapult tech from the US then I don't see why India should be overly reluctant. The fact of the matter is the US is the unchallenged world leader in ACC tech, every other nation is DECADES behind. Even if the IAC-2 was to be STOBAR configured a significant amount of high end tech would be coming from the US from integrated deck management systems to signalling equipment, engines, ship management systems etc etc
> 
> 
> The IN can't make a state of the art ACC without bits and pieces from the US- this is a entirely mandatory.



Yup,i would have to agree.


----------



## indiatester

nomi007 said:


> *To all my all Indian members*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=715545218508931
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Thanks, already posted though.

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## DacterSaab

kurup said:


> 2. Even if steam catapult is selected , still the technology will come from US



i agree but steam catapult tech would not have that strigent restrictions as EMALS




Abingdonboy said:


> The IN can't make a state of the art ACC without bits and pieces from the US- this is a entirely mandatory.



What you are saying is true but question is how sensitive the tech is and what restrictions come with it we are using US stuff on Tejas. Even big names like EFT, Gripen and Mistral use US techs but they are all being actively exported without restrictions.


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## Abingdonboy

DacterSaab said:


> What you are saying is true but question is how sensitive the tech is and what restrictions come with it



That is the question. But really I don't think the US will impose excessively restrictions on India- they're not that stupid. 



DacterSaab said:


> Even big names like EFT, Gripen and Mistral use US techs but they are all being actively exported without restrictions.



Well one thing is for certain that each one of these requires the USG's nod of approval if it is being sold to a third party.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Although no operational examples exist study has proven that Rafale can operate in STOBAR conditions without additional modifications.



As I said in my last post, the arrested landing is the same, no matter if you land on an French carrier, or the INS Vikramaditya, so no modifications on the fighter needed there. The take off is the differentiating point and all that the Rafale M need to take off via ski-jump, is a good TWR. So if the current thrust is sufficient, you can use the Rafale M from INS Vikramaditya, without any further modification, if not, the engine needs modification and not the fighter either.




DacterSaab said:


> F-35B should also be able to operate in STOBAR config if it is retrofitted with arrestor hook of F-35C



Doubtful, the hook might not be able to be fitted on the B, because it's engine is folding down for vertial take off or landings, where the C carries the hook, so integration of the hook might remove that capability.
Even if the hook could be fitted, it is not the only change that is required for arrested landings, but you need to strenghten the airframe and most importantly the gears to take the forces during the arrested landings, but the gears for the B are not strenghtened:

F35B






F35C





So an F35B would require credible modifications, to use it with arrested landings, which is why it would land only vertically on INS Vikramaditya.



DacterSaab said:


> If I remember correctly even the Sea Gripen was aimed to operate in both STOBAR and CATOBAR configs although am not sure about the status of the program



The Gripen was developed with some airframe and gear strenghtening, even for it's air force version, because one of the requirements was, to be able to land on normal roads and not only an dedicated air bases. Saab therefor say, that they can build the Sea Gripen, based on these already implemented modifications and depending on the customer requirements (STOBAR was aimed on IN, CATOBAR on Brazilian navy), it could navalise it to the required level, without too many modifications, but to make it able to take off via catapults is far more demanding and would require more modifications too.

Bottom line is, when you have a fighter designed and developed for the air force, you can navalise it for STOBAR carriers, whit the necessary modifications, while it's difficult make it useful for CATOBAR operations, since far more changes are required. That's why we should design and develop AMCA for CATOBAR operations directly, with enough thrust to use it from STOBAR carriers as well!


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## Abingdonboy

DacterSaab said:


> F-35B should also be able to operate in STOBAR config if it is retrofitted with arrestor hook of F-35C


As @sancho pointed out the F-35B is not designed to have an arrestor hook and its basic design vis a vis its folding engine would seem to make an arrestor hook an unlikely addition. From day one it was designed as a STOVL fighter like the Harrier. If the Royal Navy is set to operate the F-35Bs without arrestor hooks in the STOVL configuration off the mammoth 65,000 ton carrier then it points to the above that it just isn't feasible. If there was ever a candidate for fitting an arrestor hook and operating in STOBAR configuration it is the Royal Navy with the QE Class ACCs to bring about all the advantages STOBAR has over STOVL (in the RN's context).

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## DacterSaab

Abingdonboy said:


> Well one thing is for certain that each one of these requires the USG's nod of approval if it is being sold to a third party.



You mean US agreed on Mistral sale to Russia? 



sancho said:


> So an F35B would require credible modifications, to use it with arrested landings, which is why it would land only vertically on INS Vikramaditya.





sancho said:


> That's why we should design and develop AMCA for CATOBAR operations directly, with enough thrust to use it from STOBAR carriers as well!



So according to you the F-35C or Super Hornet could operate in STOBAR config *Provided *they have sufficient TWR?

off topic but could you highlight the what factors limit the development of CATOBAR version of Su-30MKI, EFT, Mig29K and Tejas.

also has China been able to develop a STOBAR version of J-10 or FC-1/JF-17?



Abingdonboy said:


> As @sancho pointed out the F-35B is not designed to have an arrestor hook and its basic design vis a vis its folding engine would seem to make an arrestor hook an unlikely addition. From day one it was designed as a STOVL fighter like the Harrier. If the Royal Navy is set to operate the F-35Bs without arrestor hooks in the STOVL configuration off the mammoth 65,000 ton carrier then it points to the above that it just isn't feasible. If there was ever a candidate for fitting an arrestor hook and operating in STOBAR configuration it is the Royal Navy with the QE Class ACCs to bring about all the advantages STOBAR has over STOVL (in the RN's context).



@sancho , @Abingdonboy guys I made a mistake by only considering the way the aircraft would take-off from the carrier didn't think about landing it. I change my claim F-35B can operate as it is from Vikramaditya but in STOVL/VTOL format.

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## nomi007



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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


>


DSI is missing wrong comparison!!


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## SRP

Abu Nasar said:


> DSI is missing wrong comparison!!



RAM and American Engine is missing. Wrong comparison

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## Abingdonboy

DacterSaab said:


> So according to you the F-35C or Super Hornet could operate in STOBAR config Provided they have sufficient TWR?


Of course, being naval fighters already the landing gear is already strong enough and come with an arrestor hook so landing on an ACC wouldn't be an issue the only issue is the take off. As you rightly point out the TWR is the issue as the fighter will have to take off under its own power. 

Incidentally Dassualt have claimed the Rafale-M would be able to take off from the IN's STOBAR carriers. 



DacterSaab said:


> off topic but could you highlight the what factors limit the development of CATOBAR version of Su-30MKI, EFT, Mig29K and Tejas.



Catapult launches put tremendous strain through an airframe without specifically designed strengthening you could literally rip the fighter in half . Unless a fighter is designed from the outset to be launched from a catapult it is going to be very hard to retrofit this capability onto an airframe as the original design of the fighter may inherently mane this unviable. 



DacterSaab said:


> also has China been able to develop a STOBAR version of J-10 or FC-1/JF-17?



It doesn't look like they have to date nor does there seem to be much need for a nasalised version of the JF-17, the PLA/PLAN(N) simply aren't interested in the Thunder and the only user of it (the Pakistanis) don't have any ACCs nor are any on the horizon. 



DacterSaab said:


> @sancho , @Abingdonboy guys I made a mistake by only considering the way the aircraft would take-off from the carrier didn't think about landing it. I change my claim F-35B can operate as it is from Vikramaditya but in STOVL/VTOL format.



No worries friend , we all make these mistakes!

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> So according to you the F-35C or Super Hornet could operate in STOBAR config *Provided *they have sufficient TWR?



Either that, or enough space on the deck, for a long take off run, meaning that the carrier could be bigger with a bigger deck space, like the Russian and Chinese carriers.



DacterSaab said:


> off topic but could you highlight the what factors limit the development of CATOBAR version of Su-30MKI, EFT, Mig29K and Tejas.



The EF consortium evaluated the Sea Typhoon development for the UK at first, but they concluded that re-designing the EF for CATOBAR carriers would be too difficult and costly, because too many changes on the airframe itself would be needed. It's not only the front gear that will take a lot of forces, but the whole airframe structure. It simply was not developed with the aim of being operated on a carrier, especially to take off from a catapult, so navalising would be limited to arrested landing and ski-jump take off and the same would apply to other fighters, that are designed without strenghtenings from the start. 



DacterSaab said:


> also has China been able to develop a STOBAR version of J-10 or FC-1/JF-17?



No, they seem to aim on the J15 (based on the Su33) and might add a 5th gen fighter later to it, possibly the J31.
A single engine carrier fighter has no importance for them and should be operationally not a good choice either.

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## nomi007

Abu Nasar said:


> DSI is missing wrong comparison!!


1st check idiot its pt-01 vs *LSP-1*


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> 1st check idiot its pt-01 vs *LSP-1*


Dear Armchair general, Kindly don't call someone who served his country with distinction names!!!

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> *A single engine carrier fighter has no importance for them and should be operationally not a good choice either*.


Why ???


----------



## sancho

Sergi said:


> Why ???



Why no importance? Because of J15 and most likely a stealth fighter coming in future.
Why not a good choice? Because it requires a lot of thrust to take off with a useful load via ski-jump and the J10 already suffered from too less thrust and too much weight and same goes for N-LCA too.

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## Bratva

Has AESA and IRST been confirmed for Blk-II?


----------



## he-man

mafiya said:


> Has AESA and IRST been confirmed for Blk-II?


No one knows although I do remember the loudmouth saraswat once say that mk2 will 100 pc have an aesa


----------



## sancho

mafiya said:


> Has AESA and IRST been confirmed for Blk-II?



More or less, but MK2 here can mean the first 40 with new engine but puls doppler MMR, while the later 40 with new engine and AESA. Could be similar to what the Chinese do now with J10B and C, basically one upgrade, while the latter adds some more capabilities, by replacing the stop gaps.


----------



## Bratva

sancho said:


> More or less, but MK2 here can mean the first 40 with new engine but puls doppler MMR, while the later 40 with new engine and AESA. Could be similar to what the Chinese do now with J10B and C, basically one upgrade, while the latter adds some more capabilities, by replacing the stop gaps.



And Is India going solo for AESA development for MK2 or would partner with Israel?


----------



## sancho

mafiya said:


> And Is India going solo for AESA development for MK2 or would partner with Israel?



So far yes, there were reports about a competition for a partner, but nothing happend on that. Israel can only offer limited help, since their AESA radar includes US techs, which can't be shared with India so far.

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## Bratva

sancho said:


> So far yes, there were reports about a competition for a partner, but nothing happend on that. Israel can only offer limited help, since their AESA radar includes US techs, which can't be shared with India so far.



What happened to miniaturizing AESA tech from AWACS? I read somewhere DRDO were intent to follow this path?


----------



## sancho

mafiya said:


> What happened to miniaturizing AESA tech from AWACS? I read somewhere DRDO were intent to follow this path?



That's what they are doing, but it needs to be seen how that will work out and how mature the radar would be.


----------



## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> So far yes, there were reports about a competition for a partner, but nothing happend on that. Israel can only offer limited help, since their AESA radar includes US techs, which can't be shared with India so far.


Isn't an old story? since f 16 and f 18 is out from mmrca, 2052 aesa is available for us now imo.


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Isn't an old story? since f 16 and f 18 is out from mmrca, 2052 aesa is available for us now imo.



Eventually it will be 2052 only,imho


----------



## jarves

he-man said:


> Eventually it will be 2052 only,imho


Your all prediction were proven to be correct,Next time try to write something positive.


----------



## IndoUS

sancho said:


> That's what they are doing, but it needs to be seen how that will work out and how mature the radar would be.


Can't they use Rafale's AESA considering we will be using it large numbers? So there will be commonality, or is it impossible due to dimensions of Tejas?


----------



## he-man

jarves said:


> Your all prediction were proven to be correct,Next time try to write something positive.



I started a thread regarding south koreans making an aesa prototype for their fighter programme last year.

We discussed indian aesa(airborne x-band)in that thread and as @Dillinger has already pointed out the trm of indigenous aesa will be produced outside as we have no production facilities,if at all we use aesa designed by us.

We need to be realistic here man,we could not develop a simple pulse doppler mmr on our own and got 2032 instead.


----------



## jarves

he-man said:


> I started a thread regarding south koreans making an aesa prototype for their fighter programme last year.
> 
> We discussed indian aesa(airborne x-band)in that thread and as @Dillinger has already pointed out the trm of indigenous aesa will be produced outside as we have no production facilities,if at all we use aesa designed by us.
> 
> We need to be realistic here man,we could not develop a simple pulse doppler mmr on our own and got 2032 instead.


Give links of that thread.I would want to know more about AESA radar.And yeah we need to be more realistic.


----------



## he-man

jarves said:


> Give links of that thread.I would want to know more about AESA radar.And yeah we need to be more realistic.


South korean solid state s band aesa for kf-x project

It was something like this,check in my list of topics,am using mobile app currently so its diff to find


----------



## he-man

jarves said:


> Give links of that thread.I would want to know more about AESA radar.And yeah we need to be more realistic.


south korean solid state s band aesa.............for KF-X project!!


----------



## jarves

he-man said:


> south korean solid state s band aesa.............for KF-X project!!


Already found it and read half of the thread.I have started to like your way of posting.Really very informative thread.Atleast now i know something about AESA radar.

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## he-man

he-man said:


> south korean solid state s band aesa.............for KF-X project!!



As u will see I got schooled in that thread and thank god now I know more than many ppl here


----------



## jarves

he-man said:


> As u will see I got schooled in that thread and thank god now I know more than many ppl here


I found some info on our X-band AESA radar project.I will post in that thread if i will be lucky to find it again.


----------



## he-man

jarves said:


> I found some info on our X-band AESA radar project.I will post in that thread if i will be lucky to find it again.



Oh we too posted pics of our aesa and mmic's that were fabricated in house for l-star aesa


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Isn't an old story? since f 16 and f 18 is out from mmrca, 2052 aesa is available for us now imo.



No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.



IndoUS said:


> Can't they use Rafale's AESA considering we will be using it large numbers? So there will be commonality, or is it impossible due to dimensions of Tejas?



Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.




A single engine power is enough for RBE2?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> A single engine power is enough for RBE2?



One of the test aircrafts for it was the Mirage 2000:

Rafale News: Thales RBE-2 AESA mystery

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## he-man

sancho said:


> No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.



I am totally opposed to any off shelf aesa purchase.

We need to make an aesa sometime and cannot rely on imports all the time.it will be a bit inferior,thats it.
We have to take this plunge at some time like chinese did with their ship borne aesas.

Otherwise after 10 years we will start importing gaN aesas instead of gaA on the same pretext that our aesa is not upto the mark.
This viscious cycle needs to stop asap

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## sancho

he-man said:


> I am totally opposed to any off shelf aesa purchase.
> 
> We need to make an aesa sometime and cannot rely on imports all the time.it will be a bit inferior,thats it.



That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!

You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...

So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!

LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.

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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!
> 
> You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
> You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
> You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...
> 
> So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!
> 
> LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.



We can't retrofit the Kaveri on to the Tejas (either Marks), once an engine has been chosen and then put in to operational service then a new family of engines from a completely different OEM cannot be an option even during a MLU since the whole MRO and depot level maintenance system (among other things) will get mucked up irreversibly.

An engine change of such a manner though would be feasible once the Tejas has served its time and if then for some reason we still wish to retain it (like in the case of the Jaguars).

As for not letting the Tejas be held hostage to ab initio ventures in the realm of engines and AESA radars, it should have been the way opted for but alas we did not.


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> We can't retrofit the Kaveri on to the Tejas (either Marks), once an engine has been chosen and then put in to operational service then a new family of engines from a completely different OEM cannot be an option even during a MLU



That's not correct, just look at the Chinese fighters that are replacing the proven Russian engines they used as a stop gap with indigenous engines now. Or look at the Gripen NG tech demo, that used the RM 12 and then switched to the GE 414, although the base airframe is a Gripen D, not to forget that the EJ 200 was on offer as well. Another example are the F16s that are switching between GE and P&W engines during upgrades or depending on customer demand...

The official DRDO statements till recently was always that they want to replace the GE 404s of the LCA MK1 during the MLU with Kaveri engine, when it's ready and mature enough. If that has changed now it's sad for the engine project, but doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.




Dillinger said:


> As for not letting the Tejas be held hostage to ab initio ventures in the realm of engines and AESA radars, it should have been the way opted for but alas we did not.



We should had done it with the puls doppler MMR first and simply taking a licence production for the EL2032, but we didn't and delayed the whole thing. Doing the same mistake now with MK2 again, or even letting MK2 using outdated puls doppler MMRs around 2020, only because we want indigenous radars, just shows that DRDO has not learned from their mistakes, or are not willing to learn!

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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> That's not correct, just look at the Chinese fighters that are replacing the proven Russian engines they used as a stop gap with indigenous engines now. Or look at the Gripen NG tech demo, that used the RM 12 and then switched to the GE 414, although the base airframe is a Gripen D, not to forget that the EJ 200 was on offer as well. Another example are the F16s that are switching between GE and P&W engines during upgrades or depending on customer demand...
> 
> The official DRDO statements till recently was always that they want to replace the GE 404s of the LCA MK1 during the MLU with Kaveri engine, when it's ready and mature enough. If that has changed now it's sad for the engine project, but doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should had done it with the puls doppler MMR first and simply taking a licence production for the EL2032, but we didn't and delayed the whole thing. Doing the same mistake now with MK2 again, or even letting MK2 using outdated puls doppler MMRs around 2020, only because we want indigenous radars, just shows that DRDO has not learned from their mistakes, or are not willing to learn!



The only difference being that the re-engined platforms are treated as different tranches altogether while we on the other hand already have a mark-2 slated with another foreign engine. Unless the IAF decides to convert its Mark-1s to LIFTs after a certain period (after MLU) once the Mark-2s have found their place in the force I don't see much of a chance of such a costly venture being undertaken. Specially considering that the IAF isn't big on the Mark-1 to begin with anyway and therefore would not look kindly upon shelling the extra bucks. Its not a question of international precedence but of our own context.


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> The only difference being that the re-engined platforms are treated as different tranches altogether while we on the other hand already have a mark-2 slated with another foreign engine.



It doesn't matter how you call it, the fact is, it's technically possible! So we can make LCA Mk1 to LCA MK3 or MLU, by adding a new engine and other technical upgrades.



Dillinger said:


> Unless the IAF decides to convert its Mark-1s to LIFTs after a certain period (after MLU) once the Mark-2s have found their place in the force I don't see much of a chance of such a costly venture being undertaken. Specially considering that the IAF isn't big on the Mark-1 to begin with anyway and therefore would not look kindly upon shelling the extra bucks. Its not a question of international precedence but of our own context.



I don't even think they would do the upgrade to the MK2, but simply replace the MK1s with new MK2s, just like they replaced Su 30 MKs with new MKIs instead of upgrading them. However, even for the further development of the Kaveri engine, it is important to integrate it into LCA, be it for ground and taxi trials, or even later as a flying engine test bed, so there shouldn't be high costs involved. 
Not to mention that Kaveri can even be a future replacement of the GE 414 of the MK2, it only depends on what the future thrust aim of the engine is. 
Another point is the fact that LCA is aimed on exports somewhere down the line and then you need an independent engine, to not fall under US export restrictions.

So ruling out Kaveri for LCA is far too early, it is good to de-link the project from the fighter project, but the long term aim must still to replace as many foreign engines from IAF and IN fighters as possible:

- LCA MK1 and 2
- Mig 29K
- Rafale
- AMCA

Which shows that there is a huge demand in our forces for a mature and capable indigenous engine in the next 40, in high numbers years!


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## he-man

sancho said:


> That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!
> 
> You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
> You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
> You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...
> 
> So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!
> 
> LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.



There is a huge diff between engine tech and a radar.

We have already made a s-band aesa l-star for aew&c and we need to make a fighter x band too.

And we already have done some work so why not?
Okay,import the trm's but at least do the rest.
Even that would be a step forward


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## sancho

he-man said:


> And we already have done some work so why not?



Because the work we did so far on fighter radars failed as well! The LRDE puls doppler radar isn't ready and mature yet either. LCA MK1 most likely gets the EL 2032, with some mission computers from India. That's just what we do with MKIs BARS radar, or what we plan to do with FGFAs radar, but our own basic radar is not even capable enough to be fitted to the Jaguar upgrade, so what does it tell you about how realistic or risky it is, to make LCA MK2 dependent on the indigenous AESA? 

Indigenous puls doppler radar project should be killed right away, because it's far too late for that tech, especially if it only comes for early MK2s. Let them focus on indigenous AESA, but add it to any platform when it's actully ready and not only by the hope it could be ready soon. In the meantime take a proven foreign AESA, to make the Mk2 uprgade simpler and on time.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Because the work we did so far on fighter radars failed as well! The LRDE puls doppler radar isn't ready and mature yet either. LCA MK1 most likely gets the EL 2032, with some mission computers from India. That's just what we do with MKIs BARS radar, or what we plan to do with FGFAs radar, but our own basic radar is not even capable enough to be fitted to the Jaguar upgrade, so what does it tell you about how realistic or risky it is, to make LCA MK2 dependent on the indigenous AESA?
> 
> Indigenous puls doppler radar project should be killed right away, because it's far too late for that tech, especially if it only comes for early MK2s. Let them focus on indigenous AESA, but add it to any platform when it's actully ready and not only by the hope it could be ready soon. In the meantime take a proven foreign AESA, to make the Mk2 uprgade simpler and on time.



@Dillinger told here yesterday that we may get trm's from outside.

Even I am not convinced as we have failed to make even a simple fucking pulse doppler radar.

And guess what,even after this we will have no new policy to increase private participation or move to increase disinvestment in drdo/hal/ofb!

Part of the problem also lies in rigid employee unions,they won't perform but won't let a new player given a chance too.

Unless new govt takes some bold steps,we are pretty much gonna be fucked as far as indigenization goes.

Same 90 pc imported dhruv or 60 pc imported tejas.


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> @Dillinger told here yesterday that we may get trm's from outside.
> 
> Even I am not convinced as we have failed to make even a simple fucking pulse doppler radar.
> 
> And guess what,even after this we will have no new policy to increase private participation or move to increase disinvestment in drdo/hal/ofb!
> 
> Part of the problem also lies in rigid employee unions,they won't perform but won't let a new player given a chance too.
> 
> Unless new govt takes some bold steps,we are pretty much gonna be fucked as far as indigenization goes.
> 
> Same 90 pc imported dhruv or 60 pc imported tejas.



There is no way around it, as long as there is no domestic fabrication eco-system there can't be domestic production of TRMs, as to whether such a thing (domestic manufacture) is mandatory, can't say since I don't have cost benefit data on this subject. 

One of the things for example is that as long as the IP/IR of the components is in your hands getting sub-components from foreign vendors is not exactly catastrophic.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Same 90 pc imported dhruv or 60 pc imported tejas.



It didn't matter how many subsystems were imported for the first Dhruvs, but that you get that development done! 
It didn't matter how many subsystems were imported for the Gripen, but that they get that development done! 
So it shouldn't had matter how many subsystems were imported for the Tejas, but that we get that development done finally!!!

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## he-man

sancho said:


> It didn't matter how many subsystems were imported for the first Dhruvs, but that you get that development done!
> It didn't matter how many subsystems were imported for the Gripen, but that they get that development done!
> So it shouldn't had matter how many subsystems were imported for the Tejas, but that we get that development done finally!!!



That matters.
It is the only thing that matters in the long run.

India simply sucks in engineering,yup even in software development.

And remember an economy based on consumption(india)will not grow forever.we need to manufacture goods.

Coming back to tejas,its much more imp being able to make subsystems of a jet than a jet with imported stuff.
And for that,the whole indian industry is to be blamed.not just hal/drdo.

Far too less money is being allocated for research at all levels to expect any change soon.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> That matters.
> It is the only thing that matters in the long run.



Wrong! Because in the long run, you replace the foreign parts with indigenous once, that's what is called steady progess! The ammount of foreign parts in the Dhruv MK1 and in the latest versions is completely different, similarly, we could have started with foreign radar and engines for LCA, just to ease the fighter development and replace them in later batches, when indigenous alternatives are available. The replacement of foreign parts is even one of the few success stories, because we did the same in older Migs, and Jags, do it today with MKI, or Mig 29 varients and will continue to do it with FGFA in future. But the best is, that we learned and gained know how in the helicopter field, which today results in Rudra, LCH and LUH developments on our own, while we are stuck in the fighter field.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Wrong! Because in the long run, you replace the foreign parts with indigenous once, that's what is called steady progess! The ammount of foreign parts in the Dhruv MK1 and in the latest versions is completely different, similarly, we could have started with foreign radar and engines for LCA, just to ease the fighter development and replace them in later batches, when indigenous alternatives are available. The replacement of foreign parts is even one of the few success stories, because we did the same in older Migs, and Jags, do it today with MKI, or Mig 29 varients and will continue to do it with FGFA in future. But the best is, that we learned and gained know how in the helicopter field, which today results in Rudra, LCH and LUH developments on our own, while we are stuck in the fighter field.



What did we replace?can u specify?

We can't make simple lcd screens so I am pretty unsure we made a critical part on our own.

Yes tejas engine starter in indigenous,frame is our own.any other substantial part?Are we using indigenous maws or rwr(tarang)?

In 10 years gaN aesas will be out,irst range may increase to 200 km and we will improve slowly so each year the gap is widening.

We alocate peanuts for research thats why we are where we stand.
Unless the consumer manufacturing base evolves,nothing is gonna happen.
Can we make lcd pannels?
Can we even design an ARM chip
Can we make a radome(lol)remember tejas radome problems

All these things are basics,we cannot even produce our own solar pannels for satellites.

Can we make the optical sensors of our uav's?
Can we make a good night vision goggle without tot?
Can we make the telephone modems on large scale?

For the first time last year we started making warship grade steel.

We are way way behind others in engineering.the economy is chugging along just due to services sector,mainly the IT industry.

Last year I had fight with others on kf-x thread when I said we won't be able to make indigenous aesa,everyone called me pessimistic but guess I was proved right.

Our engineering basics are worse than a country with population of 7 million(israel).i mean how bad can it get from this?

We require a radical change starting from educational institutions to have any hope of future,we cannot progress with negative or zero growth in manufacturing(scenario now)


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## sancho

he-man said:


> What did we replace?can u specify?



Froeign glass cockpit, displays and avionics with Indian once, foreigen engine with co-developed once, indigenous EW sensors...and as soon as Helina is ready, we even will have the first Indian weapon for it (I still hope that we add CLGM to Rudra too). And with every step, we further improve our capabilities in R&D or production, that's how the Indian aero industry gain the most, with a good learning curve and not by aiming high and falling deep.

Btw, in the recent interview with DRDO's Director General Dr. K. Tamilmani, he stated that there was never a funding issue in any of the development projects and that the lack of money was never a reason for the delays. So much for the cheap excuse that we are spending not enough.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Froeign glass cockpit, displays and avionics with Indian once, foreigen engine with co-developed once, indigenous EW sensors...and as soon as Helina is ready, we even will have the first Indian weapon for it (I still hope that we add CLGM to Rudra too). And with every step, we further improve our capabilities in R&D or production, that's how the Indian aero industry gain the most, with a good learning curve and not by aiming high and falling deep.
> 
> Btw, in the recent interview with DRDO's Director General Dr. K. Tamilmani, he stated that there was never a funding issue in any of the development projects and that the lack of money was never a reason for the delays. So much for the cheap excuse that we are spending not enough.



Nothing even remotely path breaking in those things.

If money was never a problem then HAL is more incompetent than I anticipated,i used to think that money was an issue

We just need private players,HAL has enjoyed the monoply for far too long.

As I said earlier,doctors remaining same private hospitals>>govt hospitals.

Why?
Accountability,profit generation and business expansion is the goal so automatically u work/have to work twice as hard.

With fixed salary and pension after retirement whether u work hard or not,stop expecting miracles.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Black Eagle 90

HMMmm... Grippen NG is among the best one and even IAF like it over Tejas.


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## Sergi

Black Eagle 90 said:


> HMMmm... Grippen NG is among the best one and even IAF like it over Tejas.


Just shut the f@ck up Nishan kid 
Dont begin to pull things out of your rear.
@Oscar : sir what happen to banning idiots form sticky threads who post false data ??? This guy is having delusions is purchases. Please send him to supermarket off this thread.

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## Black Widow

he-man said:


> That matters.
> *It is the only thing that matters in the long run.*
> India simply sucks in engineering,yup even in software development.
> And remember an economy based on consumption(india)will not grow forever.we need to manufacture goods.
> Coming back to tejas,its much more imp being able to make subsystems of a jet than a jet with imported stuff.
> And for that,the whole indian industry is to be blamed.not just hal/drdo.
> Far too less money is being allocated for research at all levels to expect any change soon.




So many times we have discuss it. I still don't believe you are raising same point..

Is it wise to make nut and bolts for prototypes?


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## rockstarIN

Any news on sp 1 and sp 2.


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## Superboy

rockstarIN said:


> Any news on sp 1 and sp 2.




They'll be manufactured I think by next year. SP-3 and SP-4 will be the first two operational Tejas as part of the No 45 Daggers squadron. They'll be manufactured I think by the time J-20 is operational.


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## Kaalapani

Superboy said:


> They'll be manufactured I think by next year. SP-3 and SP-4 will be the first two operational Tejas as part of the No 45 Daggers squadron. They'll be manufactured I think by the time J-20 is operational.



J20 will take at least 10 years for IOC.


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## Superboy

pvsarath said:


> J20 will take at least 10 years for IOC.




First flight January 2011. IOC in 2017. J-20 would take longer than J-10 did because J-20 is more complex, despite being developed with more advanced CAD.


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## Kaalapani

Superboy said:


> First flight January 2011. IOC in 2017. J-20 would take longer than J-10 did because J-20 is more complex, despite being developed with more advanced CAD.



It will exceed 2024 minimum with all the problems to be solved.

Testing new airframe is not butter my friend.


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## Superboy

pvsarath said:


> It will exceed 2024 minimum with all the problems to be solved.
> 
> Testing new airframe is not butter my friend.




J-10 took 5 years from first flight to IOC. J-20 would take 6 years from first flight to IOC.


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## Kaalapani

Superboy said:


> J-10 took 5 years from first flight to IOC. J-20 would take 6 years from first flight to IOC.



j10 is Israeli design .Israel sold design to China.
z-10 is designed by Russians.

I am saying original design take more years.I am not discouraging chines.But facts are facts.

If they succeed in j-20 project then nothing can stop them.


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## Superboy

pvsarath said:


> j10 is Israeli design .Israel sold design to China.
> z-10 is designed by Russians.
> 
> I am saying original design take more years.I am not discouraging chines.But facts are facts.
> 
> If they succeed in j-20 project then nothing can stop them.




J-10 is nothing like Lavi. J-10 is an F-16 sized plane. Lavi was a much smaller plane by comparison. Anyhow, J-20 prototype 2011 is very close to the production standard.


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## Kaalapani

Superboy said:


> J-10 is nothing like Lavi. J-10 is an F-16 sized plane. Lavi was a much smaller plane by comparison. Anyhow, J-20 prototype 2011 is very close to the production standard.


I am not talking about size am talking about airframe and aerodynamic configuration.


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## Superboy

pvsarath said:


> I am not talking about size am talking about airframe and aerodynamic configuration.




J-20 aerodynamics has already been tested.

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## rockstarIN

Superboy said:


> They'll be manufactured I think by next year. SP-3 and SP-4 will be the first two operational Tejas as part of the No 45 Daggers squadron. They'll be manufactured I think by the time J-20 is operational.



It suppose to finish by end of March. Mostly delayed by a month or two. Not next year.

And this is LCA sticky thread, only speak about it only.


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## rockstarIN

As of now SP-1 is already for ground run and SP-2 in final stages of being assembled (Status of SP-1 and SP-2)

@sancho how much time will it take to go airborne after ground run?


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## Black Widow

Superboy said:


> J-10 took 5 years from first flight to IOC. J-20 would take 6 years from first flight to IOC.




J10 is Lavi my frnd.. It was tested airframe..



Superboy said:


> *J-10 is nothing like Lavi.* J-10 is an F-16 sized plane. L*avi was a much smaller plane by comparison*. Anyhow, J-20 prototype 2011 is very close to the production standard.




And I was just born yesterday my frnd.. Do some research before posting anything..

This is not some Tom-Dick or Harry thread, It is dedicated thread, here visit experts...


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> As of now SP-1 is already for ground run and SP-2 in final stages of being assembled (Status of SP-1 and SP-2)
> 
> @sancho how much time will it take to go airborne after ground run?



Not sure, depends on how fast they can get through the tests and requirements of IAF.


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## sancho

If Saab can aim on a mini EF and benefit from developments and off the shelf parts, why don't we benefit from a similar "simple" approach and aim for a mini Rafale? Off the shelf-, co-developed- or co-produced parts to speed up developments and ease operations in IAF, rather than complicating everything and increasing costs?

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## he-man

sancho said:


> If Saab can aim on a mini EF and benefit from developments and off the shelf parts, why don't we benefit from a similar "simple" approach and aim for a mini Rafale? Off the shelf-, co-developed- or co-produced parts to speed up developments and ease operations in IAF, rather than complicating everything and increasing costs?



if we do that we will never make a radar or irst on our own.

the basic purpose of lca was development of technologies,if we are sourcing almost all critical things from abroad and retrofitting them here,what will we achieve?
although i agree if we can't develop these on time then no point in delaying the project.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> if we do that we will never make a radar or irst on our own.



As earlier discussed, the one has nothing to do with the other! We can develop the radar, IRST or engines DE-LINKED from the fighter project itself, or aim them on projects with a more realistic timeframe (Mig 29K upgrades, AMCA), or simply use tech demo versions for development of techs. That however doesn't mean that the serial production fighter should be dependent on other developments with high risks of delays and cost increases.
Not to mention that it would be a huge burden for IAF, if the only commonality between Rafale and LCA, would be the Litening pod (also no indigenous tech).

We have to aim on more efficiency and commonality, to speed up indigenous projects as well es improve the defence of the country!

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## he-man

sancho said:


> As earlier discussed, the one has nothing to do with the other! We can develop the radar, IRST or engines DE-LINKED from the fighter project itself, or aim them on projects with a more realistic timeframe (Mig 29K upgrades, AMCA), or simply use tech demo versions for development of techs. That however doesn't mean that the serial production fighter should be dependent on other developments with high risks of delays and cost increases.
> Not to mention that it would be a huge burden for IAF, if the only commonality between Rafale and LCA, would be the Litening pod (also no indigenous tech).
> 
> We have to aim on more efficiency and commonality, to speed up indigenous projects as well es improve the defence of the country!



I agree,but do we actually have any irst development of any sorts?

Drdo aesa?is it totally non-salvagable?

If yes it would be good what u are suggesting but I don't think dassault will agree to this.

But ur scenario will make iaf 4-5 more potent than current levels in a few years and I like that prospect.

With only one caveat-we need to focus dedicated teams for aesa and irsw and develop it at least before amca


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## sancho

he-man said:


> If yes it would be good what u are suggesting but I don't think dassault will agree to this.



Why would we need Dassaults approval to add components to LCA? In fact, it's silly from them that they didn't pushed harder for commonality to LCA and joint developments that would had benefited both fighters, because that would had increased the chances for the Rafale order and might even had made decisions faster.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Why would we need Dassaults approval to add components to LCA? In fact, it's silly from them that they didn't pushed harder for commonality to LCA and joint developments that would had benefited both fighters, because that would had increased the chances for the Rafale order and might even had made decisions faster.



Who knows the details man?

Maybe they are vary of russian inspections!
Although I recon we won't let them do that but anyways no one knows why


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> If Saab can aim on a mini EF and benefit from developments and off the shelf parts, why don't we benefit from a similar "simple" approach and aim for a mini Rafale? Off the shelf-, co-developed- or co-produced parts to speed up developments and ease operations in IAF, rather than complicating everything and increasing costs?



Had Dassault suggested a partnership with us like the EF Consortium I would have agreed with you. But try to look at it from this angle:-
So far IAF has committed to atleast 126 rafale + 63 optional + IN may buy upto 40 and the if FGFA, AMCA or even LCA mk2 are delayed we may see additional orders for IAF so total no. may very well cross 250 almost 1/3rd of our fleet dependent on France.
Also IAF has ordered 40 LCA mk1 and procured engines to equip another 80 LCA mk 2 so I think all will agree with me if I say that final LCA no. may safely cross 200 almost 1/4th our fleet.
Now with such a large AOR is it wise to make 1/3 + 1/4 = I don't know exactly but it's more than half your fleet dependent on France.
But I totally agree with you about not using sub-standard equipment that has adverse effect on the survibility of the state of art equipment aim your products for high performance give them reasonable time and use em when they are ready not only on LCA but also on Mig-29k & Rafale MLUs as well as on AMCA.
But in the current scenario I say we already have the best possible engine, the best possible radar would be 2052 (we should somehow convey the message that we want this radar more than their crappy F-35s they keep offering us) with Elta/American IRST, Dash/Topsight HMS, American EWS, Litening/PDL-NG LDP, Python WVR, Derby/Astra BVR and probably make developing LR airborne cruise missile (295 km range of Brahmos is not up to global standards Taurus range exeeds 500 km) and Anti-ship missile (Brahmos may do but I don't know if LCA center hardpoint can carry 2500+kg) top priority.
Now please don't think I'm an American supporter or anything I really hate the strings they attach but just to be safe lets make LCA dependent on neither Russia nor France. So getting American techs from pro-American nations like Israel, Japan, South Korea (citizens of these countries please do not be offended that is not my intention but I truly wish i had a better way of explaining what I mean) is our best bet.
The 1990s Economic crisis is probably the reason why we still have so many vintage fighters we inducted MiG-29s and M2ks in very few numbers.
What I don't understand is IAF have 200+ MiG-21s and 100+ MiG-27 in need of immediate retirement as well as ~100 Jaguars that should also be retired soon a total of 400+ fighters and they plan to cover the gap by increasing Su-30MKI orders and waiting for MMRCA and LCA to materialize
OK so far but how would you cover up the force depritiation due to extensive delays in MMRCA and LCA?
What I mean is why keep upgrading those fighters whose air-frame life has expired and is a danger not only for the pilot but also for the local public on which it'll crash, fighters that crash so commonly on routine sorties were pilots don't need to push them to their limit, just Imagine what will happen when these expired jets are put in a high intensity scenario where the pilot is obliged/stipulated to push the plane to it's limits?
There are several countries in the world that make stop gap purchases, Why not us? Why didn't we go ahead and order idk say 3 more MiG-29 sqds and 2 more M2k sqds (bring the sqd numbers up and ease logistics of aircraft currently in fleet)?
It wouldn't make us look smaller or poorer, it would just send out the message that we have a sound sense of defending our borders or probably skies in this case.
Please understand I am not suggesting these procurement at the cost of LCA or MMRCA. I'm just saying right now replace MiG-21/27 with MiG-29/M2k (purchase second hand to keep cost down upgrade yourself or extend current fleet upgrade programs) later replace these MiG-29/M2k with LCA/MMRCA/AMCA/FGFA whatever they want/need.
I don't need to say that anyone would prefer MiG-29 over MiG-21 or M2k over MiG-27/Jaguar.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Now with such a large AOR is it wise to make 1/3 + 1/4 = I don't know exactly but it's more than half your fleet dependent on France.



You are missing a few things here, LCA MK1 would not have the Rafale techs or AESA / IRST..., nor would there be a need to keep adding Rafale techs when the indigenous AESA might be ready an good enough. We have 80 LCA MK2s on order now, but any order beyond that, would come after 2022, so IF we go for more LCAs or want to offer it to export customers with an indigenous radar, we could do it then.

My point is, that MMRCA's and LCA MK2 order (126+80) are planned to be inducted roughly at the same time frame and with productions of core parts in India. So instead of licence producing 108 x AESAs, IRST and HMS, it could be 188 for 2 type of fighters, which speed up LCA MK2s development and induction into IAF, besides eases operations too.



DacterSaab said:


> What I don't understand is IAF have 200+ MiG-21s and 100+ MiG-27 in need of immediate retirement as well as ~100 Jaguars that should also be retired soon a total of 400+ fighters and they plan to cover the gap by increasing Su-30MKI orders and waiting for MMRCA and LCA to materialize



Only the Migs will be phased out, the Jags will remain in service for quiet some time, because we kept producing them for far too long (last produced was in 2008 with an operational life of at least 30 years).
The Mig 27s will already be replaced by MKIs in numbers and capabilites, since it is the replacement for the Mig 23 and 27, which actually leaves only the Mig 21s and the delays of LCA development caused the the need of adding another fighter, which lead to MRCA and now to MMRCA. If it was for IAF, we would have added more M2K-5s by now, but GoI wanted more benefits and opted to go for MMRCA. So while they add a ready and proven MMRCA on the one side with additional benefits, they remain with the hope on LCA too and that's good, but there is no need to see both seperately, but combine as much as possible to speed up things.

Btw, IAF had tried to add 2nd hand M2Ks from Qatar earlier too, but they simply were far too costly. The UAE won't sell theirs anytime soon, so there are hardly options left.[/quote]


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## he-man

sancho said:


> You are missing a few things here, LCA MK1 would not have the Rafale techs or AESA / IRST..., nor would there be a need to keep adding Rafale techs when the indigenous AESA might be ready an good enough. We have 80 LCA MK2s on order now, but any order beyond that, would come after 2022, so IF we go for more LCAs or want to offer it to export customers with an indigenous radar, we could do it then.
> 
> My point is, that MMRCA's and LCA MK2 order (126+80) are planned to be inducted roughly at the same time frame and with productions of core parts in India. So instead of licence producing 108 x AESAs, IRST and HMS, it could be 188 for 2 type of fighters, which speed up LCA MK2s development and induction into IAF, besides eases operations too.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the Migs will be phased out, the Jags will remain in service for quiet some time, because we kept producing them for far too long (last produced was in 2008 with an operational life of at least 30 years).
> The Mig 27s will already be replaced by MKIs in numbers and capabilites, since it is the replacement for the Mig 23 and 27, which actually leaves only the Mig 21s and the delays of LCA development caused the the need of adding another fighter, which lead to MRCA and now to MMRCA. If it was for IAF, we would have added more M2K-5s by now, but GoI wanted more benefits and opted to go for MMRCA. So while they add a ready and proven MMRCA on the one side with additional benefits, they remain with the hope on LCA too and that's good, but there is no need to see both seperately, but combine as much as possible to speed up things.
> 
> Btw, IAF had tried to add 2nd hand M2Ks from Qatar earlier too, but they simply were far too costly. The UAE won't sell theirs anytime soon, so there are hardly options left.


[/quote]

My immediate concern is mki upgrade and lca mk1 and pakfa.

Rafale deal will def be signed this year,no doubt about it.

But we have shown 0 intent on signing tha pakfa contract,we need to think more in that aspect.

Plus as earlier pointed out its high time we get serious on indigenous radars,jammers,irst and maws.

All this stuff will be applicable to air force,navy and army so benefits are immence for all three arms.but I am afraid we are spending far too little on r&d

@sancho

Any idea who develops software for our mki's?
The screens looks just like the russian sm's and su-35.
pls tell me I am wrong on this


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> You are missing a few things here, LCA MK1 would not have the Rafale techs or AESA / IRST..., nor would there be a need to keep adding Rafale techs when the indigenous AESA might be ready an good enough. We have 80 LCA MK2s on order now, but any order beyond that, would come after 2022, so IF we go for more LCAs or want to offer it to export customers with an indigenous radar, we could do it then.
> My point is, that MMRCA's and LCA MK2 order (126+80) are planned to be inducted roughly at the same time frame and with productions of core parts in India. So instead of licence producing 108 x AESAs, IRST and HMS, it could be 188 for 2 type of fighters, which speed up LCA MK2s development and induction into IAF, besides eases operations too.



So you mean to use french radars on only 40-80 LCAs depending on when DRDO AESA is ready. but then by your logic GE-F414 is also not the best choice we should have gone for Snecma M-88 instead and possibilly sign engine and radar JVs for future use on both ac.

Move just 1 step more and you'll reach the logical destination which i mentioned earlier 250<Rafale+200<LCA=>1/2 IAF fleet using French/Indian JV equipment and thus making them dependent on France.

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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> So you mean to use french radars on only 40-80 LCAs depending on when DRDO AESA is ready. but then by your logic GE-F414 is also not the best choice we should have gone for Snecma M-88 instead and possibilly sign engine and radar JVs for future use on both ac.
> 
> Move just 1 step more and you'll reach the logical destination which i mentioned earlier 250<Rafale+200<LCA=>1/2 IAF fleet using French/Indian JV equipment and thus making them dependent on France.


Plus making sure we are never able develop our indigenous systems as there will be simply no need then


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> but then by your logic GE-F414 is also not the best choice we should have gone for Snecma M-88 instead



The F414 was chosen because it suited the requirements, especially of IN, the M88 doesn't and therefor wasn't evaluted. 



DacterSaab said:


> Move just 1 step more and you'll reach the logical destination which i mentioned earlier



No, because you still think that additional LCAs would also take French radar for example, but they wouldn't if an Indian alternative is available. Today it isn't that's why taking the French AESA as a stop gap, would be the most logical choice, but by 2022 there should be, so no need for further French AESA. Also what makes us dependent on France, when we produce the radar in India, with full ToT and source codes? We are asking for these things to be less dependent from foreign countries, UNTIL we have similar techs on our own.

It's actually like this, if indigenous AESA is delayed or simply not mature enough:

- the first LCA MK2 squads will be inducted with indigenous puls doppler MMR around 2019!!! (same reason why LCA MK1 might have EL 2032s this year)

or 

- a ready and proven RBE 2 AESA radar, from the BEL production line

What is better for LCA and for IAF/IN?


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> The F414 was chosen because it suited the requirements, especially of IN, the M88 doesn't and therefor wasn't evaluted.



That's not what I read. Snecma was deliberately excluded from evaluation 'cause it was already conducting talks with GTRE for a JV engine based on Kaveri/M88 (GTX-35VS Kaveri uses components scourced from Snecma).



sancho said:


> No, because you still think that additional LCAs would also take French radar for example, but they wouldn't if an Indian alternative is available



Sancho you are not trying to understand what I'm saying. additional LCA would not purchase French radar (I seriously doubt RBE-2AA will fit in LCA nose without any modification which we will not have to pay for) but aren't you suggesting JV which means they will use Thales/DRDO JV AESA thereby eliminating need for any funding for a purely Indeginous AESA project and will also make such a choice financially unviable and even when developed this AESA will not be prefered choice of Air Force due to a better JV AESA already available making this project unfeasible and we will be limited to developing only Tech Demos.




sancho said:


> Today it isn't that's why taking the French AESA as a stop gap, would be the most logical choice



Why French why not Russian? 189 RBE-2AA vs 270 Zhuk AE (which will be more financially viable while easing fleet logistics at the same time?) to be inducted in IAF.




sancho said:


> but by 2022 there should be, so no need for further French AESA



Any link to confirm the expected date of induction or even a link that provides details of DRDO AESA development hell we don't even know the status of MMR.



sancho said:


> Also what makes us dependent on France, when we produce the radar in India, with full ToT and source codes?



Well I'm pretty sure that even after TOT absorption all raw materials will be stipulated to be imported from France just like MKI.
Also we can't really manufacture sophisticated components like T/RMs and other engine components so those will have to be imported.




sancho said:


> We are asking for these things to be less dependent from foreign countries, UNTIL we have similar techs on our own.



Yes but as I said earlier as soon as you go for JVs on high-cost equipment like Radars and Engines you kill all indigenous projects in the direction.




sancho said:


> It's actually like this, if indigenous AESA is delayed or simply not mature enough:
> - the first LCA MK2 squads will be inducted with *indigenous puls doppler MMR* around 2019!!! (same reason why LCA MK1 might have EL 2032s this year)
> or
> - a ready and proven RBE 2 AESA radar, from the BEL production line



Where is this fictional MMR. I doubt there's even any such project and even if there is it's useless.



sancho said:


> What is better for LCA and for IAF/IN?



Well the answer to your question will be RBE-2AA,
but if your choosing it to increase similarity in fleet you'd be better off going for Zhuk AE
at the same time if you wanna increase defensive co-operation and enter a JV then your surely gonna kill all scope for indigenous AESA and make more than half our fleet dependent on French.


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> That's not what I read. Snecma was deliberately excluded from evaluation 'cause it was already conducting talks with GTRE for a JV engine based on Kaveri/M88 (GTX-35VS Kaveri uses components scourced from Snecma).
> 
> 
> 
> Sancho you are not trying to understand what I'm saying. additional LCA would not purchase French radar (I seriously doubt RBE-2AA will fit in LCA nose without any modification which we will not have to pay for) but aren't you suggesting JV which means they will use Thales/DRDO JV AESA thereby eliminating need for any funding for a purely Indeginous AESA project and will also make such a choice financially unviable and even when developed this AESA will not be prefered choice of Air Force due to a better JV AESA already available making this project unfeasible and we will be limited to developing only Tech Demos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why French why not Russian? 189 RBE-2AA vs 270 Zhuk AE (which will be more financially viable while easing fleet logistics at the same time?) to be inducted in IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any link to confirm the expected date of induction or even a link that provides details of DRDO AESA development hell we don't even know the status of MMR.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I'm pretty sure that even after TOT absorption all raw materials will be stipulated to be imported from France just like MKI.
> Also we can't really manufacture sophisticated components like T/RMs and other engine components so those will have to be imported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but as I said earlier as soon as you go for JVs on high-cost equipment like Radars and Engines you kill all indigenous projects in the direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is this fictional MMR. I doubt there's even any such project and even if there is it's useless.
> 
> 
> 
> Well the answer to your question will be RBE-2AA,
> but if your choosing it to increase similarity in fleet you'd be better off going for Zhuk AE
> at the same time if you wanna increase defensive co-operation and enter a JV then your surely gonna kill all scope for indigenous AESA and make more than half our fleet dependent on French.



Zhuk ae has only 640 t/r elements.
Oh yeah 160 sections each with 4 t/r elements.

Its a primitive design with low power output and a relatively old design.

Thats why russians started developing fga-30.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> That's not what I read. Snecma was deliberately excluded from evaluation 'cause it was already conducting talks with GTRE for a JV engine based on Kaveri/M88 (GTX-35VS Kaveri uses components scourced from Snecma).



No, Snecma offered a co-developed engine, because they didn't had an off the shelf version with the required thrust. We rejected that for LCA MK2 and evaluated only the available EJ 200 and F414, while talks about a co-developement remained to fix Kaveris problems, not to power LCA MK2, however that finally was rejected by IAF.



DacterSaab said:


> but aren't you suggesting JV



No, we will produce the RBE 2 for licence produced Rafales in India anyway, so just ordering more of them and integrating them to the 80 x LCA MK2 is a simple and fast solution to get LCA MK2 ready and inducted as fast as possible. The indigenous AESA then is still required either for additional MK2s, to replace the EL 2032 in the LCA MK1 (40), to replace the Russian radar in the Mig 29Ks (45) and of course if we go for an AMCA (100 to 200). So there are plenty of applications left for the Indian AESA beyond 2022, in a time where we really might have that tech available and mature enough.
JV and co-developments are the way to go, if you start a new project and should had been the way at the beginning of LCA, but not today with all the delays. The prioirty now must be, to get the fighter inducted as soon as possible and that is simpler with the RBE 2 AESA.
Wrt changes, the Mirage 2000 is the testbed for Rafales radar and FSO, and just needed a slightly bigger nose. LCA already has a big nose diameter and whe know that we have to re-design the nose anyway, because of the problems of ADA. So we might be able to solve several issues at once here (nose, AESA, IRST)!




DacterSaab said:


> Why French why not Russian?



Because it's ready and available today, while the Russian AESA isn't, as simple as that!




DacterSaab said:


> Any link to confirm the expected date of induction or even a link that provides details of DRDO AESA development hell we don't even know the status of MMR.



Nope, we only know that LCA MK2 production is planned to start in 2019 and we have a lot of promises of DRDO officials, but that's it.



DacterSaab said:


> Also we can't really manufacture sophisticated components like T/RMs and other engine components so those will have to be imported.



Which means we have to import them for an indigenous radar too, so what's the point?




DacterSaab said:


> Where is this fictional MMR. I doubt there's even any such project and even if there is it's useless.



The radar is under development, but it seems not to be ready for MK1, that's why ADA officials stated that it might be used as a stop gap for the first LCA MK2s until the indigenous AESA is ready. Which would be silly, if we produce the RBE 2 at the same time anyway.




DacterSaab said:


> but if your choosing it to increase similarity in fleet you'd be better off going for Zhuk AE



IAF don't operate Zhuk AE and might not even go for it. A BARS upgrade and later addition of an AESA based on FGFAs radar seems more likely.

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> No, we will produce the RBE 2 for licence produced Rafales in India anyway, so just ordering more of them and integrating them to the 80 x LCA MK2 is a simple and fast solution to get LCA MK2 ready and inducted as fast as possible.


but will LCA be able to use it without modifications?



sancho said:


> Nope, we only know that LCA MK2 production is planned to start in 2019 and we have a lot of promises of DRDO officials, but that's it.


I'll take the date with a pinch of salt actually much more than a pinch cause I eat a lot of salt.




sancho said:


> Which means we have to import them for an indigenous radar too, so what's the point?


No point just a fact and possibility for diversifying importers.



sancho said:


> IAF don't operate Zhuk AE and might not even go for it. A BARS upgrade and later addition of an AESA based on FGFAs radar seems more likely.


OK what about Ibris AESA? eitherone can be used on MKI


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> but will LCA be able to use it without modifications?
> 
> 
> I'll take the date with a pinch of salt actually much more than a pinch cause I eat a lot of salt.
> 
> 
> 
> No point just a fact and possibility for diversifying importers.
> 
> 
> OK what about Ibris AESA? eitherone can be used on MKI


Irbis e is pesa


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> but will LCA be able to use it without modifications?



Depends on what the diameter of the RBE 2 really is.



DacterSaab said:


> I'll take the date with a pinch of salt actually much more than a pinch cause I eat a lot of salt.



I'll take anything DRDO says with a pinch of salt, but that's why I want such simple options too, to make LCA not more dependent on DRDO's promises. It simply suffered more than enough from them!




DacterSaab said:


> OK what about Ibris AESA?



IRBIS-E is a PESA, not an AESA


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> No, Snecma offered a co-developed engine, because they didn't had an off the shelf version with the required thrust.


Couldn't low thrust be compensated by better TWR?



sancho said:


> IRBIS-E is a PESA, not an AESA


Weren't they developing a third AESA other than Zhuk AE and FGFA AESA?


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> Couldn't low thrust be compensated by better TWR?
> 
> 
> Weren't they developing a third AESA other than Zhuk AE and FGFA AESA?


yes they are,,,its fga-29 and 35 which are modifications of zhuk ae only.

for ur convenience and other ppl who don't know jack and still malign me every single day

fga-35

Google Translate

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Couldn't low thrust be compensated by better TWR?
> 
> 
> Weren't they developing a third AESA other than Zhuk AE and FGFA AESA?



No and the TWR of LCA is not the problem, it already is pretty good in it's class, but it needs more power to handle the drag issues, as well as the added weight that the MK2 upgrades will bring. 

There was an offer to upgrade BARS PESA to BARS AESA, but the manufacturer is also developing the FGFA AESA and suggest the more logical way of upgrading the PESA now, while adding AESA techs from the FGFA to later MKI upgrade stages, rather than developing a BARS AESA right now.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> No and the TWR of LCA is not the problem, it already is pretty good in it's class, but it needs more power to handle the drag issues, as well as the added weight that the MK2 upgrades will bring.
> 
> There was an offer to upgrade BARS PESA to BARS AESA, but the manufacturer is also developing the FGFA AESA and suggest the more logical way of upgrading the PESA now, while adding AESA techs from the FGFA to later MKI upgrade stages, rather than developing a BARS AESA right now.



see the above post


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## DacterSaab

he-man said:


> yes they are,,,its fga-29 and 35 which are modifications of zhuk ae only.
> for ur convenience and other ppl who don't know jack and *still malign me every single day*
> fga-35


Thanks for the info but I don't recall ever maligning you.



sancho said:


> No and the TWR of LCA is not the problem, it already is pretty good in it's class, but it needs more power to handle the drag issues, as well as the added weight that the MK2 upgrades will bring.


I am not talking about the fighter, according to me as long as the dimensions are similar only thrust makes no difference but the engine with the best TWR should be chosen.

On a different note we know that current LCA fuel tanks are Trans-sonic and that Super-sonic tanks are under development could someone please confirm if we are looking into CFTs? And is the DRDO MMR a "pulse dopple" or PESA?


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> Thanks for the info but I don't recall ever maligning you.
> 
> 
> I am not talking about the fighter, according to me as long as the dimensions are similar only thrust makes no difference but the engine with the best TWR should be chosen.
> 
> On a different note we know that current LCA fuel tanks are Trans-sonic and that Super-sonic tanks are under development could someone please confirm if we are looking into CFTs? And is the DRDO MMR a "pulse dopple" or PESA?



nai yaar,,u are all right



DacterSaab said:


> Thanks for the info but I don't recall ever maligning you.
> 
> 
> I am not talking about the fighter, according to me as long as the dimensions are similar only thrust makes no difference but the engine with the best TWR should be chosen.
> 
> On a different note we know that current LCA fuel tanks are Trans-sonic and that Super-sonic tanks are under development could someone please confirm if we are looking into CFTs? And is the DRDO MMR a "pulse dopple" or PESA?



there is nothing called a drdo mmr.
its just off the shelf israeli el/m 2032,,don't let anyone fool u here


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> On a different note we know that current LCA fuel tanks are Trans-sonic and that Super-sonic tanks are under development could someone please confirm if we are looking into CFTs? And is the DRDO MMR a "pulse dopple" or PESA?



No CFTs, they increase the internal fuel capacity in the MK2, but nobody knows how much that increase will be and it's a puls doppler radar.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> No CFTs, they increase the internal fuel capacity in the MK2, but nobody knows how much that increase will be and it's a puls doppler radar.


As you said about Drag issue ? Is't Design fault or It comes up in Delta wing design only ?


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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> As you said about Drag issue ? Is't Design fault or It comes up in Delta wing design only ?



Imo they made a mistake with the intention to create the smallest fighter, but at the same time use a delta wing design, which caused that the wing itself is very large compared to the airframe. The requirement of a large nose to house a quiet large radar might also be an issue for such a small fighter. But when you look at other Indian aircraft developments and see the same drag and overweight issues, it also shows a lack of experience in the design field in general.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Imo they made a mistake with the intention to create the smallest fighter, but at the same time use a delta wing design, which caused that the wing itself is very large compared to the airframe. The requirement of a large nose to house a quiet large radar might also be an issue for such a small fighter. But when you look at other Indian aircraft developments and see the same drag and overweight issues, it also shows a lack of experience in the design field in general.



If we needed more power to adjust the drag issue, why did not we go for SNECMA M53-P2, which powers Mirage 2000 since France did not impose any sanctions after the nuke test. Instead we went got F404 which is less powered than SNECMA(though weight are different.)


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> No CFTs, they increase the internal fuel capacity in the MK2, but nobody knows how much that increase will be and it's a puls doppler radar.


Well CFTs will add to drag issues btw is there any details available as to what sort of drag problems are being encountered and in which areas?




GORKHALI said:


> As you said about Drag issue ? Is't Design fault or It comes up in Delta wing design only ?





sancho said:


> Imo they made a mistake with the intention to create the smallest fighter, but at the same time use a delta wing design, which caused that the wing itself is very large compared to the airframe. The requirement of a large nose to house a quiet large radar might also be an issue for such a small fighter. But when you look at other Indian aircraft developments and see the same drag and overweight issues, it also shows a lack of experience in the design field in general.


I don't think there's any relation b/w drag issues and delta-wings cause they are using cropped-delta design, which is supposed to reduce drag. Also during the time at which LCA design had started, the "delta-wing"-variations were the most efficient designs being employed in fighters being designed globally and since it was supposed to be a very small fighter Dassault suggested it have delta-wings in-order to increase efficiency of aircraft and we chose also cause they are comparatively easier and cheaper to manufacture at the same time they made the aircraft sturdier. 
I think it's mostly designing inexperience coupled with poor quality execution of design by the manufacturer due to deficiency in the countries current industrial capabilities in the field. 



rockstarIN said:


> If we needed more power to adjust the drag issue, why did not we go for SNECMA M53-P2, which powers Mirage 2000 since France did not impose any sanctions after the nuke test. Instead we went got F404 which is less powered than SNECMA(though weight are different.)


I think by the time we detected drag issues, it was already evident that F404 will be replaced (don't know if F414 was finalized at that time).


----------



## rockstarIN

Why Gripen does not have such issues which uses the same engine also a delta design?


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## trident2010

rockstarIN said:


> Why Gripen does not have such issues which uses the same engine also a delta design?



May be they had in the beginning and later they sort it out.


----------



## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> If we needed more power to adjust the drag issue, why did not we go for SNECMA M53-P2, which powers Mirage 2000 since France did not impose any sanctions after the nuke test. Instead we went got F404 which is less powered than SNECMA(though weight are different.)



It would had been a good choice at the begining, since we had that engine in the fleet and could had designed the LCA around it. But as a later addition to LCA MK2 and in comparison to EJ 200 and GE414, it simply doesn't hold up anymore, since size and weight would be issues, besides the fact that it's neither a modern nor a naval engine (sadly that had importance in the selection of the engine too).



DacterSaab said:


> Well CFTs will add to drag issues btw is there any details available as to what sort of drag problems are being encountered and in which areas?
> I don't think there's any relation b/w drag issues and delta-wings cause they are using cropped-delta design, which is supposed to reduce drag...



It's not the delta wing design itself that is an issue, but the large size of the wing, compared to the small overall size of the fighter. It seems that it simply was planned too big for the fighter, just like the gears of the N-LCA were "over" designed for the requirements and maybe even the nose too.



rockstarIN said:


> Why Gripen does not have such issues which uses the same engine also a delta design?



Bigger size, but at the same time smaller wings, thanks to the delta canard design:

*LCA*
Length: 13.20 m
Wing area: 38.4 m²

*Gripen*
Length: 14.1 m
Wing area: 30.0 m²

*Mirage 2000*
Length: 14.36 m
Wing area: 41 m²

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## sancho

LCA with Rafale nose, radar, IRST and refuelling probe => MK1 FOC / MK2 changes + MICA / Maitri missile to replace R73. Add Topsight HMS, Thales IFF equipment (that Mig 29UPG and M2K UPG gets too) and you have maximum commonality with the fleet, faster integration and production for the MK2 upgrade, easier export potential and higher capability of the fighter itself!

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## SRP



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## p e r petuall i o n

Be immortal India .

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## nomi007

too small is tejas

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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> too small is tejas




No is problem; big is Sukhoi MKI; 
so average is ok.

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## Robinhood Pandey



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## Donatello

IndoUS said:


> Can't they use Rafale's AESA considering we will be using it large numbers? So there will be commonality, or is it impossible due to dimensions of Tejas?



For that you need to first sign the deal and induct Rafale. Plus as arrogant as French are, they might hike the price.

How many LCA have been built and how many inducted?


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## surya kiran

chak de INDIA said:


>


That kid has got a good collection. Check out his facebook page.

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## Dandpatta

For some reason, I like the Naval LCA better than the one maiden form. Am talking of the looks dept


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## rockstarIN

surya kiran said:


> That kid has got a good collection. Check out his facebook page.


So the belly fuel tank is integrated as per the picture. @sancho


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## nomi007

chak de INDIA said:


>


what is this under belly


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## RPK

nomi007 said:


> what is this under belly


Fuel tank


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> just like the gears of the N-LCA were *"over" designed* for the requirements and maybe even the nose too.


I really don't think I understand what you mean.

and boy do I have a petty rank?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> So the belly fuel tank is integrated as per the picture. @sancho



At least for testing, but it's interesting that they test it on the N-LCA MK1, rather than on the latest LSP versions of the IAF.



DacterSaab said:


> I really don't think I understand what you mean.
> 
> and boy do I have a petty rank?



Check this older presentation:








Donatello said:


> For that you need to first sign the deal and induct Rafale. Plus as arrogant as French are, they might hike the price.



Not really, the RBE 2 AESA can be bought for LCA indepently as well, but with the timeline of MK2 it makes more sense to buy Rafale first and start the licence production of the radar in India and use it for both fighters.



Donatello said:


> How many LCA have been built and how many inducted?


You mean how many LCA's were inducted since the last time you asked? Same answer as last month:

HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 609

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## acetophenol

nomi007 said:


> too small is tejas


Its the smallest 4th gen multirole jet.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> At least for testing, but it's interesting that they test it on the N-LCA MK1, rather than on the latest LSP versions of the IAF.



But the drop tank is smaller size than usual, isn't it?

Also I mentioned you somewhere about Astra's launch where the missiles is fired from the rail itself, not the missile dropped from the rail and fly to the target unlike Armraam launches. Will this be a problem for it to integrate underbelly stations in MKI/M2k?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> But the drop tank is smaller size than usual, isn't it?
> 
> Also I mentioned you somewhere about Astra's launch where the missiles is fired from the rail itself, not the missile dropped from the rail and fly to the target unlike Armraam launches. Will this be a problem for it to integrate underbelly stations in MKI/M2k?



Yes (725 to 800l, compared to 1200l of the bigger wing fuel tanks), because of the size limitations between the gears and gear bays. Any payload on the centerline station must fit behind the front gear and between the rear gear bays, therefor must have a certain lenght or width.
That's not a problem, Aim 120 for example can be used from the wingtip rails of the F16 too, the Aim 9 then will be carried at the external wingstation. So it's just a matter of the pylons and if used at the centerline stations of the MKI it might just change that. Astra is too long for the M2K fuselage stations and could be carried only at the inner wing stations, blocking a wet station and that is not going to happen anymore. IAF will use 2 larger fuel tanks in any mission now and MICAs at the fuselage stations.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Yes (725 to 800l, compared to 1200l of the bigger wing fuel tanks), because of the size limitations between the gears and gear bays. Any payload on the centerline station must fit behind the front gear and between the rear gear bays, therefor must have a certain lenght or width.
> That's not a problem, Aim 120 for example can be used from the wingtip rails of the F16 too, the Aim 9 then will be carried at the external wingstation. So it's just a matter of the pylons and if used at the centerline stations of the MKI it might just change that. Astra is too long for the M2K fuselage stations and could be carried only at the inner wing stations, blocking a wet station and that is not going to happen anymore. IAF will use 2 larger fuel tanks in any mission now and MICAs at the fuselage stations.



What I'm saying is if we attach the missile at the fuselage station(at centre, forward position) firing will be a problem since there is another missile attached behind the same missile.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> What I'm saying is if we attach the missile at the fuselage station(at centre, forward position) firing will be a problem



I know, that's why I said, it's just a matter of the pylons that will be used on the hardpoint. If the Astra would be carried there, it would get pylons that drop it before launch of the propulsion.

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## sudhir007

After Long Time
Flight update:

From:
2532th flight on 05 April
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 200 LSP5: 255
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 39 LSP2: 294 LSP4: 110 LSP7: 81
NP1: 19 LSP8 : 77 

To:
2573th flight on 13 May
TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 200 *LSP5: 267*
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 41* LSP2: 294 *LSP4: 117 LSP7: 97
NP1: 22 LSP8 : 78*

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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> I know, that's why I said, it's just a matter of the pylons that will be used on the hardpoint. If the Astra would be carried there, it would get pylons that drop it before launch of the propulsion.



I wonder if we can develop a Stealthy gondola which can carry 5-6 LRAAM in a rotary mag in the underbelly? A la Silent eagle inspiration.


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## DacterSaab

acetophenol said:


> 4th


I really think it qualifies 4+gen




sudhir007 said:


> TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 381 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 200 LSP5: 267
> TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 41 LSP2: 294 LSP4: 117 LSP7: 97
> NP1: 22 LSP8 : 78


What tests are being done on LSP-7 they seem to be flyin' that bird alot.


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## acetophenol

DacterSaab said:


> I really think it qualifies 4+gen


No,not in its current config.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I wonder if we can develop a Stealthy gondola which can carry 5-6 LRAAM in a rotary mag in the underbelly? A la Silent eagle inspiration.



True, not that simple as it seems, when you see Boeing's and Dassault's developments in that area. For us there would also be the issue of not having useful plattforms to use such a pod. Neither MKI, Mig 29, M2K nor LCA can carry it at the centerline, because of size limitations. That leaves only pods for the wingstations as options, either for smaller loads or bigger with asymetric load configs and launch profiles, which makes it even more difficult.
Personally I would like us to see developing a modified weapon bay for MKIs centerline, that makes it able to carry at least a set of 4 x AAMs internally => Air superiority role completely clean!


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> True, not that simple as it seems, when you see Boeing's and Dassault's developments in that area. For us there would also be the issue of not having useful plattforms to use such a pod. Neither MKI, Mig 29, M2K nor LCA can carry it at the centerline, because of size limitations. That leaves only pods for the wingstations as options, either for smaller loads or bigger with asymetric load configs and launch profiles, which makes it even more difficult.
> Personally I would like us to see developing a modified weapon bay for MKIs centerline, that makes it able to carry at least a set of 4 x AAMs internally => Air superiority role completely clean!


Jugaad Engineering Zindabaad...

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## thesolar65

Have they delivered the first two planes yet? 31st March was dead line and now it is mid May and have they started construction of 3rd and fourth one also?


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## My-Analogous

thesolar65 said:


> Have they delivered the first two planes yet? 31st March was dead line and now it is mid May and have they started construction of 3rd and fourth one also?



You took my words and same question i was thinking to asked.


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## Superboy

thesolar65 said:


> Have they delivered the first two planes yet? 31st March was dead line and now it is mid May and have they started construction of 3rd and fourth one also?




Not yet. Maybe next year.


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> True, not that simple as it seems, when you see Boeing's and Dassault's developments in that area. For us there would also be the issue of not having useful plattforms to use such a pod. Neither MKI, Mig 29, M2K nor LCA can carry it at the centerline, because of size limitations. That leaves only pods for the wingstations as options, either for smaller loads or bigger with asymetric load configs and launch profiles, which makes it even more difficult.
> Personally I would like us to see developing a modified weapon bay for MKIs centerline, that makes it able to carry at least a set of 4 x AAMs internally => Air superiority role completely clean!


http://assets.overclock.net.s3.amazonaws.com/2/2e/2e3dbaee_vbattach147706.jpeg
something similar to this enclosed in a stealth gondola similar in length to a drop tank with a 1.5 kip rated under slung joint, I dont see why center-line wont be able to carry it.


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## DacterSaab

acetophenol said:


> No,not in its current config.


Yes even in current config. I think the high composite content qualifies as a RCS reduction feature thereby making it 4+gen.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> http://assets.overclock.net.s3.amazonaws.com/2/2e/2e3dbaee_vbattach147706.jpeg
> something similar to this enclosed in a stealth gondola similar in length to a drop tank with a 1.5 kip rated under slung joint, I dont see why center-line wont be able to carry it.



That would be far too big, since the rotor system and the diameter of each weapon would require too much space, unless you focus only on very small weapons.
The centerline stations on nearly all of our fighters have size limitations, the Russian fighters for example suffer from the lift desigh, with the station lying between the air intakes. The Mirage and LCA have their gear bays next to the centerline. 







Hardly more than 400mm in width I would say, so hardly the space for 1 weapon (bomb, anti ship missile or so), which makes a rotor system not possible.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Yes even in current config. I think the high composite content qualifies as a RCS reduction feature thereby making it 4+gen.



http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/s/u/h/suhathipan-1388619.jpg





LCA MK1 fits the bill for 4th generation similar to JF 17 B1&2, Gripen A & C, Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29SMT, or F16 B52, with the MK2 changes it get to 4.5th generation.

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## Bobby

This crazy.......how many more days......


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## random123

So any possibility of it to be left alone or will IAF going to buy 200 of these...


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## sancho

random123 said:


> So any possibility of it to be left alone or will IAF going to buy 200 of these...



Left alone? IAF already has an order for 120 x LCAs and with naval version and prototypes the order is for 188 x LCAs. So LCA will come for sure, the question is only when exactly it will be available for operational service and what the total number at the end might be, which both remains dependent on the development pace.


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## random123

Ok.


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## Superboy

DacterSaab said:


> Yes even in current config. I think the high composite content qualifies as a RCS reduction feature thereby making it 4+gen.




Tejas needs AESA radar and advanced airframe design like DSI to qualify as 4+ gen like J-10B is.

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> LCA MK1 fits the bill for 4th generation similar to JF 17 B1&2, Gripen A & C, Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29SMT, or F16 B52, with the MK2 changes it get to 4.5th generation.


So the high composite content in Structure accounts for nothing?



Superboy said:


> Tejas needs AESA radar and advanced airframe design like DSI to qualify as 4+ gen like J-10B is.


So according to you even Rafale F1,2 and EFT Tranche 1,2,3a not to mention MKI all don't qualify 4+gen cause they don't have AESAs. And unless I'm mistaken DSI is an air intake design and not an "advanced air-frame design".


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## Superboy

DacterSaab said:


> So according to you even Rafale F1,2 and EFT Tranche 1,2,3a not to mention MKI all don't qualify 4+gen cause they don't have AESAs. And unless I'm mistaken DSI is an air intake design and not an "advanced air-frame design".




Eurofighter in its current configuration cannot be said as being 4.5 gen. It still has mechanical radar. Like J-10A, it is 4th generation. Rafale and Su-35 have PESA. I consider them 4.2 generation. DSI is advanced because as of now only JF-17 and J-10B operationally have it.

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## GORKHALI

Superboy said:


> Eurofighter in its current configuration cannot be said as being 4.5 gen. It still has mechanical radar. Like J-10A, it is 4th generation. Rafale and Su-35 have PESA. I consider them 4.2 generation. DSI is advanced because as of now only JF-17 and J-10B operationally have it.



In simple words DSI is a Space tech and those aircrafts who got Y shaped or any other shaped Intake is nothing but obsolete . Or in other words nothing beat Jf 17 Intergalactic Plane and J10B .

Well here's the list of Failed ,non DSI and Obsolete planes:

*1>Gripen NG ...Obsolete *







*2>SU35 .....Obsolete *





*3>Rafale....Obsolete






4>Eurofighter....Obsolete





5>F18 E Super hornet...obsolete






6>PAKFA..obsolete 







Now Intergalactic,aliens tech planes are :





2>J 10b



*

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## Superboy

Mechanical moving air intakes are the past. Non moving DSI is the present and the future. Oh, and by the way, Gripen NG doesn't even exist

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## Storm Force

SUPERBOY hoe come nobody else is buying this futeristic dsi fighter plane and its so cheap too at under $20m each


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Storm Force said:


> SUPERBOY hoe come nobody else is buying this futeristic dsi fighter plane and its so cheap too at under $20m each



Its actually 25-30 million for blk-I .. 35+ million for Blk-II .. and guess what Blk-I alone is far superior to inferior under development lca ..

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## Storm Force

Desert Fighter PAF cannot affford a $30 million fighter.

JF17 bk 1 is $15m each and even this is funded in SOFT LOANS by China

China Giving Pakistan 50 Fighter Jets

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> So the high composite content in Structure accounts for nothing?



Nope, since that was included in most of the older designs through upgrades as well. The Mig 29SMT for example adds up to 16% composites now, has credible coatings that reduced it's RCS 4 times too, but technically it still remains in the 4th generation.



DacterSaab said:


> unless I'm mistaken DSI is an air intake design and not an "advanced air-frame design"



No it isn't an advanced feature at all, but Superboy doesn't understand it, although many people tried it, so just ignor him and keep the thread on topic.[/quote]

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## random123

So does the other 50-100 JF-17s Block-IIs are also given by China???

Also the 49 + 1 Attrition one was from China being assembled in PAC....


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## DacterSaab

Superboy said:


> Eurofighter in its current configuration cannot be said as being 4.5 gen. It still has mechanical radar. Like J-10A, it is 4th generation. Rafale and Su-35 have PESA. I consider them 4.2 generation. DSI is advanced because as of now only JF-17 and J-10B operationally have it.


I'd advice you get some professional help. Which generations you consider doesn't change anything.



sancho said:


> No it isn't an advanced feature at all, but Superboy doesn't understand it, although many people tried it, so just ignor him and keep the thread on topic.


Thanks for the heads-up no point getting into useless dick-measuring.



GORKHALI said:


> Well here's the list of Failed ,non DSI and Obsolete planes:


oh, I got 1 obsolete fighter you missed




*1>LCA Tejas- Lets keep the thread on topic.*

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## rahul_rao

tejas pe mat karo time bekaaar............... kyoki abki baar modi sarkaaaaaaaaaar


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## sms

rahul_rao said:


> tejas pe mat karo time bekaaar............... kyoki abki baar modi sarkaaaaaaaaaar


PJ .......


----------



## Black Widow

Superboy said:


> Tejas needs AESA radar and advanced airframe design like* DSI *to qualify as 4+ gen like J-10B is.




There is best explanation on DSI by Gambit, Please read that.
J10B AESA Radar is experimental,
LCA Airframe is good for its role..


Lets not talk about J10B.. Its chinese maal. No one knows the truth about Chinese maal.


----------



## DacterSaab

@sancho hi, what is your opinion for Popeye turbo ALCM for LCA it can be carried at 3 hardpoints and has a range of 320 km and since Israel are not members of MTCR they can sell us weapons with range more than 300km? also there is a anti-ship version being developed and the air-launched version of Gabriel can be used.

And which is a better WVR missile R73 or Python-5?


----------



## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> @sancho hi, what is your opinion for Popeye turbo ALCM for LCA it can be carried at 3 hardpoints and has a range of 320 km and since Israel are not members of MTCR they can sell us weapons with range more than 300km? also there is a anti-ship version being developed and the air-launched version of Gabriel can be used.
> 
> And which is a better WVR missile R73 or Python-5?



Any heavy weapon would realistically only be carried on the centerline station, because the inner wingstations will be required to carry fuel tanks. IAF also have no need to use LCA for heavy strikes, so don't expect too much importance for such integrations.
So far it was speculated that LCA / N-LCA might get the Kh 35, which would mean commonality to Mig 29 UPGs and INs Mig 29Ks.
Python 5 clearly, but IAF seems to be happy with the R73 so far and the better choice to replace it, would be a SR missile based on Maitri as I stated last week.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Any heavy weapon would realistically only be carried on the centerline station, because the inner wingstations will be required to carry fuel tanks. IAF also have no need to use LCA for heavy strikes, so don't expect too much importance for such integrations.
> So far it was speculated that LCA / N-LCA might get the Kh 35, which would mean commonality to Mig 29 UPGs and INs Mig 29Ks.
> Python 5 clearly, but IAF seems to be happy with the R73 so far and the better choice to replace it, would be a SR missile based on Maitri as I stated last week.


Is the cost same for p5 and run?


----------



## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Any heavy weapon would realistically only be carried on the centerline station, because the inner wingstations will be required to carry fuel tanks. IAF also have no need to use LCA for heavy strikes, so don't expect too much importance for such integrations.
> So far it was speculated that LCA / N-LCA might get the Kh 35, which would mean commonality to Mig 29 UPGs and INs Mig 29Ks.
> Python 5 clearly, but IAF seems to be happy with the R73 so far and the better choice to replace it, would be a SR missile based on Maitri as I stated last week.


@sancho any progress in the of JV Maitri.


----------



## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Is the cost same for p5 and run?



Run? Don't know about the P5 costs.



sudhir007 said:


> any progress in the of JV Maitri.



Last were earlier this year, that the final decision is close, but the elections obviously delay things till the new government takes over.


----------



## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Run? Don't know about the P5 costs.
> 
> 
> 
> Last were earlier this year, that the final decision is close, but the elections obviously delay things till the new government takes over.


Sorry R73 and p5


----------



## DacterSaab

Black Widow said:


> There is best explanation on DSI by Gambit, Please read that.


hi where is this explanation?



sancho said:


> Any heavy weapon would realistically only be carried on the centerline station, because the inner wingstations will be required to carry fuel tanks. IAF also have no need to use LCA for heavy strikes, so don't expect too much importance for such integrations.
> So far it was speculated that LCA / N-LCA might get the Kh 35, which would mean commonality to Mig 29 UPGs and INs Mig 29Ks.
> Python 5 clearly, but IAF seems to be happy with the R73 so far and the better choice to replace it, would be a SR missile based on Maitri as I stated last week.


True but if we fund the integration of a cruise missile it will help export potential and as soon as drag issues are resolved we can try developing CFTs then 1< ALCM or other heavy weapons may be carried although being so small the range will never be equal to other jets of same class. Also why are we not developing a jet launched version of Nag you know JELINA or something? that'll greatly enhance CAS capability. I also think a JV for nex-gen Nimrod would be beneficial the missile can be used for CAS, SEAD, Maritime assault and Aerial Interdiction on enemy bunkers.


----------



## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> True but if we fund the integration of a cruise missile it will help export potential



Doubtful, because countries that are interested in light class fighters, mainly use them in air policing and basic strike roles. The addition of stand of bombs, anti ship missiles, or a recon pod will make it far more interesting thant a cruise missile. 



DacterSaab said:


> as soon as drag issues are resolved we can try developing CFTs



No CFTs coming, the plan is to increase internal fuel, the question is only how much can be added.



DacterSaab said:


> Also why are we not developing a jet launched version of Nag



We are, HELINA, it's prime applications is meant to be combat helicopters and possibly drones, not sure if fighters will get it too, but I hope so. CAS will be a good role for LCA, where HELINA and Sudarshan would be nice and cost-effective weapons for it.

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## Abingdonboy

Don't know if this has been posted before but I haven't seen it:








HAL LCA assembly line.

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## Storm Force

they look really nice just wish we had 15 on the ramps getting ready and not two


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Don't know if this has been posted before but I haven't seen it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAL LCA assembly line.



HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 619

Another angle, but I guess otherwise the same pic.


----------



## Robinhood Pandey

Advanced weapons trials in jamnagar.

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## sancho

chak de INDIA said:


> Advanced weapons trials in jamnagar.



The article related to the pic:



> *Tejas completes advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar*
> Three aircraft from Tejas flight-line have successfully completed advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar as part of the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) campaign, which began in December last year...
> 
> ..."The first SP-1 is in advanced stages of equipping and we will have the ground run by end of June. The SP-1 should start flying by August. The second, third and fourth production aircraft are in various stages of structural build and we hope to deliver four aircraft in the current year to the Indian Air Force (IAF)," Tyagi said...
> 
> ...Ahead of the FOC, crucial milestones that the project needs to complete include, integration of the missiles with the radar, integration of Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun, air-to-air refuelling probe, better braking system and change of nose cone radome from composite materials to quartz for an improved range.



Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas completes advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar

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## Rahul9090



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## Rahul9090



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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/472972940871356416


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## spectribution

Black Widow said:


> There is best explanation on DSI by Gambit, Please read that.
> J10B AESA Radar is experimental,
> LCA Airframe is good for its role..
> 
> 
> Lets not talk about J10B.. Its chinese maal. No one knows the truth about Chinese maal.



It's a PESA radar not AESA because of it's IFF nodes. China bought PESA radar from Russia around early 2000s.

LCA is a Light Combat Fighter, in that role other than Gripen E/F it's the best.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Its actually 25-30 million for blk-I .. 35+ million for Blk-II .. and guess what Blk-I alone is far superior to inferior under development lca ..



Tejas took around 15 years for actual work (designing, construction, testing) to be done. We were making a 4+ Gen fighter for the first time on our own. It took nearly 12 - 15 years to get the necessary industrial capacity together before work could begin. But today it can arguably be said to be the best in it's class (Gripen C/D, JF 17, F16 A/B and early C variants,etc included) due to the some amazing technologies used.

1. HMDS (Dash Helmet Mounted Display Sights)
2. FLIR/ Passive IRST (Litening Pod)
3. Internal MAWS, RWR, systems
4. High Thrust to Weight Ratio 1.07
5. Very Low Wing Loading (50.7 lbs/sqft)
6. All Axis Digital Flight Control System (Quadruplex Redundant)
7. ELTA 2032 Hybrid Multi Mission Radar (150 KM Air to Air range for 3 - 5 msq target, 300 KM for Air to Ground target the size of tank.)
8. Stealth Composites
9. Very Low RCS (0.3 msq)
10. Very Low Cost ($ 26 million only)

JF 17 has only point 10. to call it's own



Rahul9090 said:


>



It's a two seater!

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## pursuit of happiness

spectribution said:


> It's a PESA radar not AESA because of it's IFF nodes. China bought PESA radar from Russia around early 2000s.
> 
> LCA is a Light Combat Fighter, in that role other than Gripen E/F it's the best.
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas took around 15 years for actual work (designing, construction, testing) to be done. We were making a 4+ Gen fighter for the first time on our own. It took nearly 12 - 15 years to get the necessary industrial capacity together before work could begin. But today it can arguably be said to be the best in it's class (Gripen C/D, JF 17, F16 A/B and early C variants,etc included) due to the some amazing technologies used.
> 
> 1. HMDS (Dash Helmet Mounted Display Sights)
> 2. FLIR/ Passive IRST (Litening Pod)
> 3. Internal MAWS, RWR, systems
> 4. High Thrust to Weight Ratio 1.07
> 5. Very Low Wing Loading (50.7 lbs/sqft)
> 6. All Axis Digital Flight Control System (Quadruplex Redundant)
> 7. ELTA 2032 Hybrid Multi Mission Radar (150 KM Air to Air range for 3 - 5 msq target, 300 KM for Air to Ground target the size of tank.)
> 8. Stealth Composites
> 9. Very Low RCS (0.3 msq)
> 10. Very Low Cost ($ 26 million only)
> 
> JF 17 has only point 10. to call it's own
> 
> 
> 
> It's a two seater!


--
Jf17 dont ahve point 1to 9 ?


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## Lord Of Gondor

@Post #9350:Sources for points 4 and 7(The RADAR is an Indian MMR with some Israeli components,IIRC)
Point 8 is false.
The composites used are just that-'composites' and no usage of 'Stealth composites' has ever been made in the entire program.(Some say that the composites used are a generation behind the ones used on western aircraft,the difference mainly is due to manufacturing processes employed)
Point 9 is a brain fart.


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## spectribution

Lord Of Gondor said:


> @Post #9350:Sources for points 4 and 7(The RADAR is an Indian MMR with some Israeli components,IIRC)
> Point 8 is false.
> The composites used are just that-'composites' and no usage of 'Stealth composites' has ever been made in the entire program.(Some say that the composites used are a generation behind the ones used on western aircraft,the difference mainly is due to manufacturing processes employed)
> Point 9 is a brain fart.



7. It's an ELTA 2032 HYBRID actually, Indian T/R module with Israeli backend processor. Makes sense as why we should not modify/customize the radar for our use than just buy a new one. Performance as per sources 120km @ 2ms, 150km @ 3 - 5 msq.

8. Composites absorb and deflect radar waves in a different way compared to metal surface. Funnily the radome of the plane absorbs the wavelengths giving only 40 - 50 km radar range as of now, even though radar is 150 KM in A2A range! These composites make the plane lighter and stealthier as a result. Even JF 17 blk III is scheduled to use this technology.

9. Tejas is the smallest lightest plane in the world in it's class. Being small itself gives a very low RCS. With the stealth composites included as well as RAM paint coating, the Tejas has an RCS of just a 1/3 of a Mirage 2000H as per experts. RCS of Mirage 2000H is 1 msq. Thus 1/3 is RCS of Tejas or 0.3 msq.

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## GORKHALI

can anyone tell me,how to put tweet over here ?


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## spectribution

GORKHALI said:


> can anyone tell me,how to put tweet over here ?



Use a technology in windows 7 called Snip Tool. It can take a cut out of a part of the screen you're iterested in.

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## nair

How many LCAs are under construction?


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## spectribution

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> Jf17 dont ahve point 1to 9 ?



Nope that's why no Pakistani trolls can be seen nearby.



nair said:


> How many LCAs are under construction?



At least 10 at the moment 4 -6 will be delivered to IAF this year.

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## Rahul9090

GORKHALI said:


> can anyone tell me,how to put tweet over here ?



copy paste the url


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## GORKHALI

nair said:


> How many LCAs are under construction?


Four sir..SP1 to SP 4,with NLCA single seater in advance stage of ground testing

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## nair

GORKHALI said:


> Four sir..SP1 to SP 4,with NLCA single seater in advance stage of ground testing



6 is under testing?


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## Robinhood Pandey

GORKHALI said:


> can anyone tell me,how to put tweet over here ?



Click on the *More *button on bottom right corner of any tweet . . then click on the *Embed tweet *option . . it will show you an URL of that particular tweet.







copy that url in the media section like you post an Youtube video







There you go

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## Lord Of Gondor

spectribution said:


> 7. It's an ELTA 2032 HYBRID actually, Indian T/R module with Israeli backend processor. Makes sense as why we should not modify/customize the radar for our use than just buy a new one. Performance as per sources 120km @ 2ms, 150km @ 3 - 5 msq.


Source.....'please'.


spectribution said:


> 8. Composites absorb and deflect radar waves in a different way compared to metal surface. Funnily the radome of the plane absorbs the wavelengths giving only 40 - 50 km radar range as of now, even though radar is 150 KM in A2A range! These composites make the plane lighter and stealthier as a result. Even JF 17 blk III is scheduled to use this technology.


Stop going off,on a tangent.Mention sources for 'Stealth Composites'.
And BTW,ranges are normally 'classified',until and unless you show evidence,I'd dismiss this as being funny.



spectribution said:


> 9. Tejas is the smallest lightest plane in the world in it's class. Being small itself gives a very low RCS. With the stealth composites included as well as RAM paint coating, the Tejas has an RCS of just a 1/3 of a Mirage 2000H as per experts. RCS of Mirage 2000H is 1 msq. Thus 1/3 is RCS of Tejas or 0.3 msq.


As per what experts?(Sources and no 'my uncle's sister's son-in-law's classmate kinda ones')


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## GORKHALI

nair said:


> 6 is under testing?


You can say that but SP1 and SP2 will soon start there Taxi trail while SP3 and SP4 are in advance stage of integration.


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## Zhukov

Whiat is proposed BVR for TEJAS? R-77 Adder?


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## gslv mk3

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Source.....'please'.



Yes,the MMR is Indian with Israeli processor



> The coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. J*ointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture*, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.
> 
> LCA Tejas - Technology: Multi - Mode Radar





> Stop going off,on a tangent.Mention sources for 'Stealth Composites'.
> And BTW,ranges are normally 'classified',until and unless you show evidence,I'd dismiss this as being funny.





> The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a relook. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.
> 
> Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express











> 120 km against 2 sq.m RCS aerial target, >150 km for surface targets against sea clutter



ACIG Exclusives : Tejas Resources

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## spectribution

Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing good sir!

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## sancho

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Whiat is proposed BVR for TEJAS? R-77 Adder?



The Derby missile.



gslv mk3 said:


> Yes,the MMR is Indian with Israeli processor



That was the aim, but didn't worked out, not it's most likely the other way arount. Israeli MMR with Indian processors for LCA MK1 and Jaguar Darin 3, just like we do it with Russian radars for MKI, FGFA and most likely for Mig 29s too.

The EL 2032 is a puls doppler radar, aimed on 5m² targets and depending on the nose diameter is officially given with around 140Km detection range in the Rafael brochures.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

spectribution said:


> It's a PESA radar not AESA because of it's IFF nodes. China bought PESA radar from Russia around early 2000s.
> 
> LCA is a Light Combat Fighter, in that role other than Gripen E/F it's the best.
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas took around 15 years for actual work (designing, construction, testing) to be done. We were making a 4+ Gen fighter for the first time on our own. It took nearly 12 - 15 years to get the necessary industrial capacity together before work could begin. But today it can arguably be said to be the best in it's class (Gripen C/D, JF 17, F16 A/B and early C variants,etc included) due to the some amazing technologies used.
> 
> 1. HMDS (Dash Helmet Mounted Display Sights)
> 2. FLIR/ Passive IRST (Litening Pod)
> 3. Internal MAWS, RWR, systems
> 4. High Thrust to Weight Ratio 1.07
> 5. Very Low Wing Loading (50.7 lbs/sqft)
> 6. All Axis Digital Flight Control System (Quadruplex Redundant)
> 7. ELTA 2032 Hybrid Multi Mission Radar (150 KM Air to Air range for 3 - 5 msq target, 300 KM for Air to Ground target the size of tank.)
> 8. Stealth Composites
> 9. Very Low RCS (0.3 msq)
> 10. Very Low Cost ($ 26 million only)
> 
> JF 17 has only point 10. to call it's own
> 
> 
> 
> It's a two seater!



i loooled..


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## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> i loooled..



Please avoid one liners here.



sancho said:


> That was the aim, but didn't worked out, not it's most likely the other way arount. Israeli MMR with *Indian processors* for LCA MK1 and Jaguar Darin 3, just like we do it with Russian radars for MKI, FGFA and most likely for Mig 29s too.



I thought the Radar processor was difficult technology...What happened with our own MMR ?


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## sancho

gslv mk3 said:


> I thought the Radar processor was difficult technology...What happened with our own MMR ?



It's more like mission computers for the radars which we currently can supply. So far sadly nothing much as it seems, LCA MK1 is expected with EL 2032 and some Indian customizations, the fact that even the Jags will not get it, makes clear that the problems with the A2G modes couldn't be resolved so far and statements of ADA officials estimated, that it's more likely to see it in the early MK2s, rather than the indigenous AESA. So we still are far back in this field and need credible techs through the MMRCA and FGFA deals.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

gslv mk3 said:


> Please avoid one liners here.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the Radar processor was difficult technology...What happened with our own MMR ?



I wouldnt if the person hadnt made such ridiculous claims...



gslv mk3 said:


> Please avoid one liners here.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the Radar processor was difficult technology...What happened with our own MMR ?



I wouldnt if the person hadnt made such ridiculous claims...


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## Black Widow

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> Jf17 dont ahve point 1to 9 ?




I am not insulting that chinese plane, But heard somewhere that FC1 was unable to do night sortie. PAF wanted to induct FC1 in hurry. 

FC1 was missing many capabilities when it was introduce in PAF. First PAF inducted FC1 and later they added many feature.

Its Pakistani strategy, while IAF strategy is "We want a plane with full capabilities."

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## spectribution

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> i loooled..



Does your JF 17 have even one among points 1 - 9. If not you have no merit to be in this thread.

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## spectribution

Black Widow said:


> I am not insulting that chinese plane, But heard somewhere that FC1 was unable to do night sortie. PAF wanted to induct FC1 in hurry.
> 
> FC1 was missing many capabilities when it was introduce in PAF. First PAF inducted FC1 and later they added many feature.
> 
> Its Pakistani strategy, while IAF strategy is "We want a plane with full capabilities."



A half made fighter inducted into service is very shortsighted on PAF's part. Maybe that's why PAF has learnt from IAF and has stopped commissioning JF 17 squadrons since 2010 in order to wait till plane reaches minimum operational capability or IOC.

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## Black Widow

spectribution said:


> A half made fighter inducted into service is very *shortsighted *on PAF's part. Maybe that's why PAF has learnt from IAF and has stopped commissioning JF 17 squadrons since 2010 in order to wait till plane reaches minimum operational capability or IOC.




I can't comment on it.. IAF approach is also not that good. I think something is better than nothing.


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## Superboy

spectribution said:


> A half made fighter inducted into service is very shortsighted on PAF's part. Maybe that's why PAF has learnt from IAF and has stopped commissioning JF 17 squadrons since 2010 in order to wait till plane reaches minimum operational capability or IOC.




JF-17 achieved IOC in February 2010 when the first squadron No. 26 converted to JF-17. Perhaps you meant FOC?


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## spectribution

Superboy said:


> JF-17 achieved IOC in February 2010 when the first squadron No. 26 converted to JF-17. Perhaps you meant FOC?



Just look at what PAC is offering for JF 17. It's more of a MiG 21 Bison like technology. If this is your 21st century fighter then your airforce is making a bad decision.



Dual redundant mission computers
Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
Multi-mode Pulse Doppler Radar capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
Smart head up display with up front control panel. SHUD total field of view is 25 Degrees
Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
HOTAS
Three smart multi function color displays
Air Data Computer
Radar Altimeter
IFF Interrogator/Transponder
Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation (ACMI)
BVR/Communication Data link
hVHF / UHF Communication System



Black Widow said:


> I can't comment on it.. IAF approach is also not that good. I think something is better than nothing.



If it doesn't work how is it good? Especially when it's supposed to be your premier fighter in the future.


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## sancho

spectribution said:


> A half made fighter inducted into service is very shortsighted on PAF's part.



Not really, actually it's common procedure all over the world, to induct a fighter with limited (opened) capabilities and improve it through operational service. The early EF T1s, Rafale F1M, or Gripen A/B were pure air defence fighters, lacked several weapon and technical capabilties and got multi role capable only in later stages. Therefore the way PAF did it with JF 17 is not wrong.
LCA MK1 could had been inducted earlier, if the aim was to replace basic strike fighters at first, since dumb bombs, LGBs and even LDPs were inducted very early. But sadly several other issues needed to be dealt, time was wasted with useless integrations (HMS/LDP before basic radar, or even EW was available) and things were done too complicated anyway (waiting for indigenous techs, including N-LCA development...) and as a result, we will induct LCA MK1 with similar capabilities as JF 17 Block 2 or Gripen C/D, rather than the early Block 1 or A/B versions.

So our approach was actually the silly one, aiming at too many things at once, instead of making it simple, realistic and with a constant improvement plan.

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## Superboy

spectribution said:


> Just look at what PAC is offering for JF 17. It's more of a MiG 21 Bison like technology. If this is your 21st century fighter then your airforce is making a bad decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Dual redundant mission computers
> Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
> Multi-mode Pulse Doppler Radar capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
> Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
> Smart head up display with up front control panel. SHUD total field of view is 25 Degrees
> Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
> HOTAS
> Three smart multi function color displays
> Air Data Computer
> Radar Altimeter
> IFF Interrogator/Transponder
> Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation (ACMI)
> BVR/Communication Data link
> hVHF / UHF Communication System
> 
> 
> 
> If it doesn't work how is it good? Especially when it's supposed to be your premier fighter in the future.




JF-17 is good enough for PAF requirement. If India invades Pakistan, boom, international sanctions would be placed on India and India would collapse overnight. Don't forget, JF-17 is the world's only operational jet having revolutionary DSI


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## ni8mare

Superboy said:


> JF-17 is good enough for PAF requirement. If India invades Pakistan, boom, international sanctions would be placed on India and India would collapse overnight. Don't forget, JF-17 is the world's only operational jet having revolutionary DSI


ok

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## Superboy

The reason why JF-17 has mechanical flight control backing up FBW is that FBW is sluggish and lagging in response. FBW is only needed for unstable planes. If you compare driving a mechanically controlled car and an electronically controlled car, you would know it is much more responsive with a mechanically controlled car.


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## Dazzler

keep it LCA related folks, thanks

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Storm Force said:


> Desert Fighter PAF cannot affford a $30 million fighter.
> 
> JF17 bk 1 is $15m each and even this is funded in SOFT LOANS by China
> 
> China Giving Pakistan 50 Fighter Jets




Thank you for your analysis... have the 50 jfs arrived? nope.. but manufacturinbg of blk-II and upgrade of blk-I has started.. but i guess a troll knows more abt it.. than PAF guys..


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## Storm Force

There is nothing revolutionary in thunder superboy. Its a goof low cost option for developingv countries who want s basic bvr fighter with some fourth generation technology. The thunder costs less than many high-end wstern helicopters.

Great news for a cash struggling airpower.

But not revoluntionsry .

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## spectribution

Superboy said:


> JF-17 is good enough for PAF requirement. If India invades Pakistan, boom, international sanctions would be placed on India and India would collapse overnight. Don't forget, JF-17 is the world's only operational jet having revolutionary DSI



DSI means divertless subsonic inlet. Meaning it helps to slow down plane to sub sonic speeds by using boundary layer flow air. Planes like F 35, J 20, J 31 use this technique. It really has no parable advantage overall. 

Even USA will now think billions of times before putting sanctions on us. If they do we and Russia tie up, USA gets left alone in Asia Pacific.



Superboy said:


> The reason why JF-17 has mechanical flight control backing up FBW is that FBW is sluggish and lagging in response. FBW is only needed for unstable planes. If you compare driving a mechanically controlled car and an electronically controlled car, you would know it is much more responsive with a mechanically controlled car.



FBW is better in a plane as RSS or relaxed static stability makes plane uncontrollable in that axis unless computers step in.



sancho said:


> Not really, actually it's common procedure all over the world, to induct a fighter with limited (opened) capabilities and improve it through operational service. The early EF T1s, Rafale F1M, or Gripen A/B were pure air defence fighters, lacked several weapon and technical capabilties and got multi role capable only in later stages. Therefore the way PAF did it with JF 17 is not wrong.
> LCA MK1 could had been inducted earlier, if the aim was to replace basic strike fighters at first, since dumb bombs, LGBs and even LDPs were inducted very early. But sadly several other issues needed to be dealt, time was wasted with useless integrations (HMS/LDP before basic radar, or even EW was available) and things were done too complicated anyway (waiting for indigenous techs, including N-LCA development...) and as a result, we will induct LCA MK1 with similar capabilities as JF 17 Block 2 or Gripen C/D, rather than the early Block 1 or A/B versions.
> 
> So our approach was actually the silly one, aiming at too many things at once, instead of making it simple, realistic and with a constant improvement plan.



LCA MK 1 = JF 17 BLK III/ GRIPEN C/D/F 16 A/B/C BLOCK 30


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## sancho

spectribution said:


> LCA MK 1 = JF 17 BLK III/ GRIPEN C/D/F 16 A/B/C BLOCK 30



4th gen single role limited capabilities - JF 17 B1, J10A, Gripen A/B, F16 below block 50, Mig 29 blow SMT, Mirage 2000 below -5, Rafale F1, EF T1

4th gen multi role fighters - LCA MK1, JF 17 B2, Gripen C/D, F16 B50/52, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000-5, EF T2, F18 Hornet

4.5th gen multi role fighters with advanced capabilities - LCA MK2, JF 17 B3, J10B, Gripen E/F, F16 B60, Mig 35, Rafale F2 onwards, EF T3A, F18 SH

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## he-man

sancho said:


> 4th gen single role limited capabilities - JF 17 B1, J10A, Gripen A/B, F16 below block 50, Mig 29 blow SMT, Mirage 2000 below -5, Rafale F1, EF T1
> 
> 4th gen multi role fighters - LCA MK1, JF 17 B2, Gripen C/D, F16 B50/52, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000-5, EF T2, F18 Hornet
> 
> 4.5th gen multi role fighters with advanced capabilities - LCA MK2, JF 17 B3, J10B, Gripen E/F, F16 B60, Mig 35, Rafale F2 onwards, EF T3A, F18 SH



i have serious reservations on u using jf-17 and tejas mk2 along with others.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> i have serious reservations on u using jf-17 and tejas mk2 along with others.



If they come with AESA radar, enhenced avionics and weapon capabilities they are at the same 4.5th gen "technical" level, but being light class fighters, they obviously will have shortfalls in "operational" capability compared to propper medium class fighters.


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## TimeToScoot

@sancho 

Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious. Your posts are very informative and enlightening. Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?

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## Black Widow

TimeToScoot said:


> @sancho
> 
> Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious. Your posts are very informative and enlightening. Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?




Sancho is official LCA troll ...

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## he-man

sancho said:


> If they come with AESA radar, enhenced avionics and weapon capabilities they are at the same 4.5th gen "technical" level, but being light class fighters, they obviously will have shortfalls in "operational" capability compared to propper medium class fighters.



highly unlikely that jf-17 will come with an aesa,,,,tejas may gey el/m 2052


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## TimeToScoot

> Sancho is official LCA troll ...



Is it? I was beginning to take his posts seriously


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> @sancho
> 
> Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious. Your posts are very informative and enlightening. Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?



dude u got to be kidding me.
tejas mk2 dosen't even exist as of now,,,,,,,even there is 0 operational tejas mk1 as of now.
mk1 is undergoing trials in leh right now for god's sake

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## Sergi

TimeToScoot said:


> @sancho
> 
> Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious. Your posts are very informative and enlightening. Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?


He only "class" them NOT comapred them as 1 on 1. 

MMRCA is medium class n LCA is light class. IAF want medium class and light class both.



TimeToScoot said:


> Is it? I was beginning to take his posts seriously


 that was a joke

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## TimeToScoot

> dude u got to be kidding me.
> tejas mk2 dosen't even exist as of now,,,,,,,even there is 0 operational tejas mk1 as of now.
> mk1 is undergoing trials in leh right now for god's sake



Hey, why don't you let the expert whom the question is directed to answer? LCA Mk2 will be operational by 2020 and it's not like the Rafale is all ready to be inducted in 2014.



> MMRCA is medium class n LCA is light class. IAF want medium class and light class both.



Oh. I thought the smaller/lighter it is the better it would be 



> that was a joke



Yes.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sancho said:


> 4th gen single role limited capabilities - JF 17 B1, J10A, Gripen A/B, F16 below block 50, Mig 29 blow SMT, Mirage 2000 below -5, Rafale F1, EF T1
> 
> 4th gen multi role fighters - LCA MK1, JF 17 B2, Gripen C/D, F16 B50/52, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000-5, EF T2, F18 Hornet
> 
> 4.5th gen multi role fighters with advanced capabilities - LCA MK2, JF 17 B3, J10B, Gripen E/F, F16 B60, Mig 35, Rafale F2 onwards, EF T3A, F18 SH



In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..


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## Sergi

TimeToScoot said:


> Oh. I thought the smaller/lighter it is the better it would be


Not necessary both smaller fighters n bigger fighters have their advantages n disavatages.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> highly unlikely that jf-17 will come with an aesa,,,,tejas may gey el/m 2052



It's using klj7V2 upgraded radar as of right now .. AESA is planned according to the prog director.


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> Hey, why don't you let the expert whom the question is directed to answer? LCA Mk2 will be operational by 2020 and it's not like the Rafale is all ready to be inducted in 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. I thought the smaller/lighter it is the better it would be
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.




do some research on the current capabilities and progress of mk1 induction.
who says mk2 will be operational in 2020...................yeah right,loudmouth HAL


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## Sergi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..


Define 4th gen fighter class and do tell us were LCA MK1 miss the bus ???

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## sancho

TimeToScoot said:


> Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious.



No, just a layman that is interested in defence like most of us. 



TimeToScoot said:


> Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?



Not at all, we badly need MMRCA and should had fixed the deal long ago. They will be more suitable for offensive and defensive operations against our opponents than an LCA would be, the MK2 has only the potential to be of the same "technical" level, which shows it's good base, but the long development and late induction makes MMRCA needed for IAF, besides the industrial benefits from the MMRCA competition, that we need to improve our industrial capabilities.

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## TimeToScoot

> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..



Why sweety, because it was built by the Yindoos?


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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It's using klj7V2 upgraded radar as of right now .. AESA is planned according to the prog director.



maybe yes,maybe no.
untill chinese themselves develop an operational aesa(aircraft),pakistan won't have it


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Sancho is official LCA troll ...



Only LCA? I thought I was an anti indigenous developments troll. Come on man, give me all the credit!

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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..



sadly as useless as lca mk1 seems to u,,,,it betters jf-17 in equipment,especially radar,ecm and having quadruplex fly by wire.
please open ur eyes before its too late


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## Black Widow

TimeToScoot said:


> Is it? I was beginning to take his posts seriously




I was kidding dude, Sancho is one of the gem on PDF... There was one more guy @somnath , Somnath has also has good compilation of knowledge..

U should follow comments from few members
@sancho 
@somnath 
@gambit 
@KRAIT 
@jha

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## sancho

he-man said:


> highly unlikely that jf-17 will come with an aesa,,,,tejas may gey el/m 2052



That's your "opionion" but not based on the reality. The Chinese are progressing with their radar developments and the Block 3 upgrade is considered to be a more comprehensive one, with new radar, engine and other advanced capabilities. But we have to wait and see, just like in the case of LCA MK2!


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## Sergi

he-man said:


> sadly as useless as lca mk1 seems to u,,,,it betters jf-17 in equipment,especially radar,ecm and having quadruplex fly by wire.
> please open ur eyes before its too late


In which thread you get that many negatives ???



Black Widow said:


> I was kidding dude, Sancho is one of the gem on PDF... There was one more guy @somnath , Somnath has also has good compilation of knowledge..
> 
> U should follow comments from few members
> @sancho
> @somnath
> @gambit
> @KRAIT
> @jha


I think that was drsomnath and some number in his user name. Look like he left PDF

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## he-man

sancho said:


> That's your "opionion" but not based on the reality. The Chinese are progressing with their radar developments and the Block 3 upgrade is considered to be a more comprehensive one, with new radar, engine and other advanced capabilities. But we have to wait and see, just like in the case of LCA MK2!



same old speculations from u.
i will believe it when i see it.

on a serious note,with fdi likely to be pushed to 74-100 percent it will be a death knell for any future planned drdo indigenous equipment



Sergi said:


> In which thread you get that many negatives ???
> 
> 
> I think that was drsomnath and some number in his user name. Look like he left PDF



lol,in jf-17 thread.
i compared jf-17 with j-10b.

apparently a bunch of think tanks didn't like what they saw

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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..





he-man said:


> same old speculations from u.
> i will believe it when i see it.
> 
> on a serious note,with fdi likely to be pushed to 74-100 percent it will be a death knell for any future planned drdo indigenous equipment



How the FDI will kill indigenisation?


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## TimeToScoot

> on a serious note,with fdi likely to be pushed to 74-100 percent it will be a death knell for any future planned drdo indigenous equipment



DRDO chief cautions against FDI in defence - The Hindu

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## he-man

kaku1 said:


> How the FDI will kill indigenisation?



are u serious man??


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## Sergi

he-man said:


> lol,in jf-17 thread.
> i compared jf-17 with j-10b.
> 
> apparently a bunch of think tanks didn't like what they saw


Can you link ???


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## kaku1

he-man said:


> are u serious man??


What? I am asking a question from you? Tell me how it kill?


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> DRDO chief cautions against FDI in defence - The Hindu



it must be allowed,drdo has had enough time.
they have achieved zilch except missiles and maybe to a small degree in sonars


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> maybe yes,maybe no.
> untill chinese themselves develop an operational aesa(aircraft),pakistan won't have it



J-10s are already carrying AESAs.. V2 is also a joint development from kjl7 .. European firms are also offering AESAs .. Italians pitched vixen aesa in the past .. A pod is also under development with a unknown European firm..


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## sancho

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..



That's your "opinion", but the FOC version will be fully multi role capable, will have a puls doppler MMR, HMS, LDP, modern EW with RWR, UV MAWS and jammers integrated, a glass cockpit, FBW, IFR and even modern materials and coatings to reduce the RCS. ALL capabilities that puts it "at least" in the 4th generation, the problem is on that the performance in several areas (drag and weight, radar range, number of hardpoints) is not on the level that was planned or required by IAF, so it's an average 4th gen fighter till the problems are solved, but still *is* a 4th gen fighter!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> sadly as useless as lca mk1 seems to u,,,,it betters jf-17 in equipment,especially radar,ecm and having quadruplex fly by wire.
> please open ur eyes before its too late



No .. You better view the JFT thread or remain ignorant.. 

Beside what happened to the "milestones" reguarding lca? The 50km radar range n so on?


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> Can you link ???



j-10b vs jf-17 thread


Sergi said:


> Can you link ???


No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead. | Page 31
i am banned from the thread,,,u can see what happened.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sancho said:


> That's your "opinion", but the FOC version will be fully multi role capable, will have a puls doppler MMR, HMS, LDP, modern EW with RWR, UV MAWS and jammers integrated, a glass cockpit, FBW, IFR and even modern materials and coatings to reduce the RCS. ALL capabilities that puts it "at least" in the 4th generation, the problem is on that the performance in several areas (drag and weight, radar range, number of hardpoints) is not on the level that was planned or required by IAF, so it's an average 4th gen fighter till the problems are solved, but still *is* a 4th gen fighter!



Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express


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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No .. You better view the JFT thread or remain ignorant..
> 
> Beside what happened to the "milestones" reguarding lca? The 50km radar range n so on?



dude i know more than u,,,i am not a tejas *** licker like u are a blind jf-17 fan.
both tejas and jf-17 are small fry,difference being that jf-17 is ur frontline fighter along with f-16


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## TimeToScoot

> it must be allowed,drdo has had enough time.
> they have achieved zilch except missiles and maybe to a small degree in sonars



I believe the DRDO has performed reasonably well. However, the solution to our defense needs would not be FDI but involving the private sector and the educational institutes in the development process.




> No .. You better view the JFT thread or remain ignorant..



The JFT is a Chinese fighter plane. Even if it is as awesome as you claim it is (it is not) it is still Chinese.


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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> J-10s are already carrying AESAs.. V2 is also a joint development from kjl7 .. European firms are also offering AESAs .. Italians pitched vixen aesa in the past .. A pod is also under development with a unknown European firm..



u think i didn't know that??
i got 8 negative ratings debating klj-7 radar,see the link urself.

its a small radar and not very good one.
on aesa,yes j-10 b is carrying one.



TimeToScoot said:


> I believe the DRDO has performed reasonably well. However, the solution to our defense needs would not be FDI but involving the private sector and the educational institutes in the development process.



its too late for that,we have missed the bus.
fdi will revive both defence industry and economy


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## kaku1

he-man said:


> u think i didn't know that??
> i got 8 negative ratings debating klj-7 radar,see the link urself.
> 
> its a small radar and not very good one.
> on aesa,yes j-10 b is carrying one.
> 
> 
> 
> its too late for that,we have missed the bus.
> fdi will revive both defence industry and economy



you going to answer my question or not? Or you moving on from your statement?


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## sancho

he-man said:


> same old speculations from u.



Nope, that's what the officals for both fighters say, personally I have my doubts on when the MK2 will get AESA, which is why I would prefer the Rafale AESA for LCA MK2 as well, but the fact remains, that both are aimed to be in the 4.5th generation, based on what their manufacturers plan.



he-man said:


> on a serious note,with fdi likely to be pushed to 74-100 percent it will be a death knell for any future planned drdo indigenous equipment



I'm against it too, but that's what most of you voted for. Creating jobs in India, by getting more "production" to India, not improving R&D of Indian industry and increasing the competition in this field.


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## he-man

kaku1 said:


> you going to answer my question or not? Or you moving on from your statement?


FDI will lead to partnerships between indian and foreign companies and indirectly we will be getting their stuff,,,,only difference may be that stuff will be produced in india generating lot of employment



sancho said:


> Nope, that's what the officals for both fighters say, personally I have my doubts on when the MK2 will get AESA, which is why I would prefer the Rafale AESA for LCA MK2 as well, but the fact remains, that both are aimed to be in the 4.5th generation, based on what their manufacturers plan.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm against it too, but that's what most of you voted for. Creating jobs in India, by getting more "production" to India, not improving R&D of Indian industry and increasing the competition in this field.



drdo was not exactly doing anything in this field either.
we are too late in the day now,,,,,FDI will be a reality although i expect it to be with specific clauses


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## kaku1

he-man said:


> FDI will lead to partnerships between indian and foreign companies and indirectly we will be getting their stuff,,,,only difference may be that stuff will be produced in india generating lot of employment



This is the same statement during the 1990's, but after that the Indian Private Co. got more benefit from it rather than foreign one.

BTW, did you read the whole new proposed DIPP policy? That in which circumstances a foreign co. can raise its share in Indian one?


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## he-man

kaku1 said:


> This is the same statement during the 1990's, but after that the Indian Private Co. got more benefit from it rather than foreign one.
> 
> BTW, did you read the whole new proposed DIPP policy? That in which circumstances a foreign co. can raise its share in Indian one?



its just a speculated policy....we will find out the truth in july after the budget session.
100 percent fdi will be permitted with complete tot i think


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## kaku1

he-man said:


> its just a speculated policy....we will find out the truth in july after the budget session.
> 100 percent fdi will be permitted with complete tot i think



That one is purely authentic? And I am not asking your own thinking. Come from MoD. BTW, did you read it or not? In which circumstances a co. can raise its share in Indian one?


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## he-man

kaku1 said:


> That one is purely authentic? And I am not asking your own thinking. Come from MoD. BTW, did you read it or not? In which circumstances a co. can raise its share in Indian one?


no man i just read in a newspaper,,,,i would need to read it before commenting.

but whatever be the specific provisions,drdo is gonna suffer.
we on the other hand will benefit as private players will form big partnerships with foreign defence firms and thats good only.


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## kaku1

he-man said:


> no man i just read in a newspaper,,,,i would need to read it before commenting.
> 
> but whatever be the specific provisions,drdo is gonna suffer.
> we on the other hand will benefit as private players will form big partnerships with foreign defence firms and thats good only.



DRDO is a state run department, and I dont give a shit about it, currently it has total monopoly, and it fucking the Indian defense really hard.

Some Co. need to break its monopoly over market, it need to be competitive to remain in market. 

BTW, the new DIPP states, if a full technology transfer going on then a foreign co. can raise its share to 74% and if it producing a state-of-an-art technology then 100%.

And its good, it also motivate Indian private co., see Pipavav goa, this co. spends billions of dollars on upgradation, hope it will get some major contract- like light size frigates. But now it is in huge debt. And L&T, it designing hull for arihant, but govt. still afraiding to give contract to them. And the case of Tata and Mahindra is also same.


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## he-man

kaku1 said:


> DRDO is a state run department, and I dont give a shit about it, currently it has total monopoly, and it fucking the Indian defense really hard.
> 
> Some Co. need to break its monopoly over market, it need to be competitive to remain in market.
> 
> BTW, the new DIPP states, if a full technology transfer going on then a foreign co. can raise its share to 74% and if it producing a state-of-an-art technology then 100%.
> 
> And its good, it also motivate Indian private co., see Pipavav goa, this co. spends billions of dollars on upgradation, hope it will get some major contract- like light size frigates. But now it is in huge debt. And L&T, it designing hull for arihant, but govt. still afraiding to give contract to them. And the case of Tata and Mahindra is also same.



i am totally with u on this,
drdo and hal have fucked us completely.

not to forget the stupid and lacklustre ordnance factory board doing nothing for decades alltogether


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## sancho

he-man said:


> FDI will be a reality although i expect it to be with specific clauses



FDI is already reality and not bad as such, but only as long as the Indian side had more to say and more to gain, it is good for the country. But when the only aim is, to create a basic manufacturing industry (which afaik didn't even worked in Gujarat), we only open more space for outsourcing production parts of foreign vendors to India. But producing non critical parts, won't make us more capable on the R&D side. That is only possible when we gain know how and experience in "developing" techs and capabilities, preferably with a foreign partner. China is the king when it comes to production, but still lacks behind in R&D, which is why they remain to be dependent on Russian inputs or reverse engineering. HAL produces F18SH airframe parts, which doesn't make them more capabe to design even basic trainers, TATA is producing credible ammounts of airframe parts of western helicopters, but can't develop an own helicopter anytime soon... ... ..., all examples that shows, that basic manufactruing is not a solution to make our aero industry any better, nor to make us more independent from imports we might produce more nuts and bolts in India, which however were developed abroad)!
Specific clauses for what exactly?


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## he-man

sancho said:


> FDI is already reality and not bad as such, but only as long as the Indian side had more to say and more to gain, it is good for the country. But when the only aim is, to create a basic manufacturing industry (which afaik didn't even worked in Gujarat), we only open more space for outsourcing production parts of foreign vendors to India. But producing non critical parts, won't make us more capable on the R&D side. That is only possible when we gain know how and experience in "developing" techs and capabilities, preferably with a foreign partner. China is the king when it comes to production, but still lacks behind in R&D, which is why they remain to be dependent on Russian inputs or reverse engineering. HAL produces F18SH airframe parts, which doesn't make them more capabe to design even basic trainers, TATA is producing credible ammounts of airframe parts of western helicopters, but can't develop an own helicopter anytime soon... ... ..., all examples that shows, that basic manufactruing is not a solution to make our aero industry any better, nor to make us more independent from imports we might produce more nuts and bolts in India, which however were developed abroad)!
> Specific clauses for what exactly?



u make it very simplistic,,,,very simplistic indeed.

1)r&d needs money and we have none at the moment.
2)r&d needs competent companies and facilities and we lack both
3)we need private participation and they will do it only if the investment is safe for returns which is not the case here right now at all.therefore they need to tie up with others to stand up first

4)drdo and hal had enough time but when u achieve a big 0 in most of the projects except missiles and sonars then there is something fundamentally wrong an indeed it is.n organization that cannot even independently manufacture a simple mechanical pulse doppler radar is incapable of anything good.

In ideal world i agree FDI will not be a good option but right now we are not in any ideal situation.
We have to revive the investment cycle and also speed up the acquisitions while generating jobs too.
Thats why fdi is important.
The solutions u are giving are perfectly fine except that it will take at least 5 years for the effects to be felt if they are implemented today in college education etc but we are simply out of time.


Time is over for HAL and DRDO.....................its the beginning of the end for these behemoths,although it may take another decade for private industry to replace these due to disinvestment of these


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## Zhukov

he-man said:


> u make it very simplistic,,,,very simplistic indeed.
> 
> 1)r&d needs money and we have none at the moment.
> 2)r&d needs competent companies and facilities and we lack both
> 3)we need private participation and they will do it only if the investment is safe for returns which is not the case here right now at all.therefore they need to tie up with others to stand up first
> 
> 4)drdo and hal had enough time but when u achieve a big 0 in most of the projects except missiles and sonars then there is something fundamentally wrong an indeed it is.n organization that cannot even independently manufacture a simple mechanical pulse doppler radar is incapable of anything good.
> 
> In ideal world i agree FDI will not be a good option but right now we are not in any ideal situation.
> We have to revive the investment cycle and also speed up the acquisitions while generating jobs too.
> Thats why fdi is important.
> The solutions u are giving are perfectly fine except that it will take at least 5 years for the effects to be felt if they are implemented today in college education etc but we are simply out of time.
> 
> 
> Time is over for HAL and DRDO.....................its the beginning of the end for these behemoths,although it may take another decade for private industry to replace these due to disinvestment of these


I dont think Your Politicians and Defence Establishment will agree with you. Not unless there pockets are filled with precious Contract Rupees these INDEGINEOUS projects bring.
You can either get results from Private sector like USA and Europe or a Strictly Checked and Ruthlessly Monitored Public Sector Like China or Former Soviet Union. 
This conglomerate of Inefficient and corrupt Politicized Public sector will not take you any where. 
That why an Indian Scientist in Lockheed Martin or Boing does wonders but in HAL or DRDO brings dissappointment after dissappointment.


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## he-man

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> I dont think Your Politicians and Defence Establishment will agree with you. Not unless there pockets are filled with precious Contract Rupees these INDEGINEOUS projects bring.
> You can either get results from Private sector like USA and Europe or a Strictly Checked and Ruthlessly Monitored Public Sector Like China or Former Soviet Union.
> This conglomerate of Inefficient and corrupt Politicized Public sector will not take you any where.
> That why an Indian Scientist in Lockheed Martin or Boing does wonders but in HAL or DRDO brings dissappointment after dissappointment.



i already know that but u must know this time the government is not the stupid leftist congress but right wing bjp with majority of its own.

change is assured this time


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## sancho

he-man said:


> u make it very simplistic,,,,very simplistic indeed.



Plain reality and you have no idea how disturbing it is for me, to be on the same side as DRDO and even Ajay Shukla on this regard (although he has other resonings). 



he-man said:


> 1) r&d needs money and we have none at the moment.



Wrong, DRDO officials just stated a few weeks back, that funding of R&D projects was never an issue. In fact the government and even Antony were imo too easy with providing money for the wishes of the forces and the industry. Things like N-LCA or now AMCA, that don't offer any operational gain, but were or would be funded without any issue and when BJP hikes the defence budget to 25%, it also clearly shows that money is not the problem



he-man said:


> 2)r&d needs competent companies and facilities and we lack both



Partially right, we have the companies, but either do the developments too complicated, or not aimed of efficiency. I agree on the facilities though, but then again, SAMTEL is the best prove that we can do it in India, if we want to and if the commit ourselfs to it.
They have developed know how and experience over the years, that made them to a credibile indigenous alternative to HAL and foreign companies in the avionics field and are improving themselfs now, with JVs that gets them not only production parts but credible input of know how!

Answer this, which company do you believe will gain more for future indigenous developments? Reliance that is aimed to manufacture the wings of Rafale under the JV with Dassault, or Samtel that might provide HMS, IRST electro-optics and MFDs under their JV with Thales?

We all know that Reliance has more money as a company and hopefully starts putting it into indigenous R&D, but from do you really think they will gain much know how for the future and for the benefit of Indian fighter projects, by producing wings?
Samtel has by far less money for R&D, but will gain for sure much more since they have JVs on credible techs and with higher technical gain for the future and that is exactly what JV's, co-development as well as FDI should bring to India, not only money and jobs at the production end (although these are needed as well of course)!



he-man said:


> 3)we need private participation and they will do it only if the investment is safe for returns which is not the case here right now at all.therefore they need to tie up with others to stand up first



Yes we need privat Indian industry to participate, but how can the returns be not safe, when India is the biggest defence market even today? They have to take this as a chance and develop and produce more for the Indian requirement, which they didn't so far and that's why the former MoD and DM changed to procurement policies to a forced team up of foreign vendors with Indian counterparts. An excellent decision, which needs to be followed, but not by diverting only minor production to the Indian partners, while the important stuff remains to be developed and build abbroad.



he-man said:


> 4)drdo and hal had enough time but when u achieve a big 0 in most of the projects



And I am the first one to support that! BUT, then we need even more focus on getting alternatives in the R&D sector and not more alternatives in the production sector only.
I would love to see that TATA would be able to produce the Avro replacement, the additional Pilatus trainers, or even the foreign LUH's, because that frees HAL from too many projects and gives Indian forces and alternative in the aero sector, which we currently simply don't have, because none of the private players so far has invested much in production capabilities for Indian demands, let alone in R&D of the defence aero sector. So as long as they don't start to take Indian defence seriously and see the potential for them selfs, we simply are dependent on DRDO and HAL!
That's why we need a stronger stand and focus on efficiency towards DRDO, HAL and Co and at the same time create new alternatives via Indian or foreign players wrt to R&D and not replacing the one for the other!



he-man said:


> In ideal world i agree FDI will not be a good option



I didn't said it's bad, on the contrary it is important! But in a reasonable ammount and with remaining control of the projects and requirements on the Indian side!


----------



## he-man

sancho said:


> Plain reality and you have no idea how disturbing it is for me, to be on the same side as DRDO and even Ajay Shukla on this regard (although he has other resonings).
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, DRDO officials just stated a few weeks back, that funding of R&D projects was never an issue. In fact the government and even Antony were imo too easy with providing money for the wishes of the forces and the industry. Things like N-LCA or now AMCA, that don't offer any operational gain, but were or would be funded without any issue and when BJP hikes the defence budget to 25%, it also clearly shows that money is not the problem
> 
> 
> 
> Partially right, we have the companies, but either do the developments too complicated, or not aimed of efficiency. I agree on the facilities though, but then again, SAMTEL is the best prove that we can do it in India, if we want to and if the commit ourselfs to it.
> They have developed know how and experience over the years, that made them to a credibile indigenous alternative to HAL and foreign companies in the avionics field and are improving themselfs now, with JVs that gets them not only production parts but credible input of know how!
> 
> Answer this, which company do you believe will gain more for future indigenous developments? Reliance that is aimed to manufacture the wings of Rafale under the JV with Dassault, or Samtel that might provide HMS, IRST electro-optics and MFDs under their JV with Thales?
> 
> We all know that Reliance has more money as a company and hopefully starts putting it into indigenous R&D, but from do you really think they will gain much know how for the future and for the benefit of Indian fighter projects, by producing wings?
> Samtel has by far less money for R&D, but will gain for sure much more since they have JVs on credible techs and with higher technical gain for the future and that is exactly what JV's, co-development as well as FDI should bring to India, not only money and jobs at the production end (although these are needed as well of course)!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we need privat Indian industry to participate, but how can the returns be not safe, when India is the biggest defence market even today? They have to take this as a chance and develop and produce more for the Indian requirement, which they didn't so far and that's why the former MoD and DM changed to procurement policies to a forced team up of foreign vendors with Indian counterparts. An excellent decision, which needs to be followed, but not by diverting only minor production to the Indian partners, while the important stuff remains to be developed and build abbroad.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am the first one to support that! BUT, then we need even more focus on getting alternatives in the R&D sector and not more alternatives in the production sector only.
> I would love to see that TATA would be able to produce the Avro replacement, the additional Pilatus trainers, or even the foreign LUH's, because that frees HAL from too many projects and gives Indian forces and alternative in the aero sector, which we currently simply don't have, because none of the private players so far has invested much in production capabilities for Indian demands, let alone in R&D of the defence aero sector. So as long as they don't start to take Indian defence seriously and see the potential for them selfs, we simply are dependent on DRDO and HAL!
> That's why we need a stronger stand and focus on efficiency towards DRDO, HAL and Co and at the same time create new alternatives via Indian or foreign players wrt to R&D and not replacing the one for the other!
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't said it's bad, on the contrary it is important! But in a reasonable ammount and with remaining control of the projects and requirements on the Indian side!



Dude u seem to be having no idea on how cash strapped we really are,not at all.
The growth rate was just 4.5 pc this year and its expected to be same for at least a year,so priority of the government right now is not r&d by any means.

The priority for the next 5 years will be to revive the investment cycle and build the infrastructure while filling the shortfalls on the defence at the earliest.

So the path u are suggesting is not possible for at least the time we get the growth to 8-9 pc mark,,,,we cannot invest huge money on r&d,its as simple as that.

On ur question of why returns not being safe,tatas or mahindras or etc can make any product they like but at the end of the day they have to compete with the international competition in open process or armed forces must get a good product,here is the problem,,,,these companies simply cannot compete with international competition in anything really,nothing at all.So we have only one option,IF WE HAVE TO PURSUE UR LINE

That we start acquiring desi products without any open and fair tender process without issuing tender to foreign companies which will again make these companies lax in the long run and is a really bad idea.
So the only option we have is FDI...........at least for the short run,yes.




sancho said:


> Plain reality and you have no idea how disturbing it is for me, to be on the same side as DRDO and even Ajay Shukla on this regard (although he has other resonings).
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, DRDO officials just stated a few weeks back, that funding of R&D projects was never an issue. In fact the government and even Antony were imo too easy with providing money for the wishes of the forces and the industry. Things like N-LCA or now AMCA, that don't offer any operational gain, but were or would be funded without any issue and when BJP hikes the defence budget to 25%, it also clearly shows that money is not the problem
> 
> 
> 
> Partially right, we have the companies, but either do the developments too complicated, or not aimed of efficiency. I agree on the facilities though, but then again, SAMTEL is the best prove that we can do it in India, if we want to and if the commit ourselfs to it.
> They have developed know how and experience over the years, that made them to a credibile indigenous alternative to HAL and foreign companies in the avionics field and are improving themselfs now, with JVs that gets them not only production parts but credible input of know how!
> 
> Answer this, which company do you believe will gain more for future indigenous developments? Reliance that is aimed to manufacture the wings of Rafale under the JV with Dassault, or Samtel that might provide HMS, IRST electro-optics and MFDs under their JV with Thales?
> 
> We all know that Reliance has more money as a company and hopefully starts putting it into indigenous R&D, but from do you really think they will gain much know how for the future and for the benefit of Indian fighter projects, by producing wings?
> Samtel has by far less money for R&D, but will gain for sure much more since they have JVs on credible techs and with higher technical gain for the future and that is exactly what JV's, co-development as well as FDI should bring to India, not only money and jobs at the production end (although these are needed as well of course)!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we need privat Indian industry to participate, but how can the returns be not safe, when India is the biggest defence market even today? They have to take this as a chance and develop and produce more for the Indian requirement, which they didn't so far and that's why the former MoD and DM changed to procurement policies to a forced team up of foreign vendors with Indian counterparts. An excellent decision, which needs to be followed, but not by diverting only minor production to the Indian partners, while the important stuff remains to be developed and build abbroad.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am the first one to support that! BUT, then we need even more focus on getting alternatives in the R&D sector and not more alternatives in the production sector only.
> I would love to see that TATA would be able to produce the Avro replacement, the additional Pilatus trainers, or even the foreign LUH's, because that frees HAL from too many projects and gives Indian forces and alternative in the aero sector, which we currently simply don't have, because none of the private players so far has invested much in production capabilities for Indian demands, let alone in R&D of the defence aero sector. So as long as they don't start to take Indian defence seriously and see the potential for them selfs, we simply are dependent on DRDO and HAL!
> That's why we need a stronger stand and focus on efficiency towards DRDO, HAL and Co and at the same time create new alternatives via Indian or foreign players wrt to R&D and not replacing the one for the other!
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't said it's bad, on the contrary it is important! But in a reasonable ammount and with remaining control of the projects and requirements on the Indian side!



i agree on this fully,,,it has to be regulated properly


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## sancho

he-man said:


> The growth rate was just 4.5 pc this year and its expected to be same for at least a year,so priority of the



Not really, since early this year all predictions show increase of growth between 5 and 6% this year and up to 7% possibly by next year. Our defence spendings and fundings for R&D projects never went down, all we saw in the last few years was a slightly reduced increase, but it still was an increase every year. So money was and is not a problem, but only an excuse when things didn't worked out!



he-man said:


> On ur question of why returns not being safe,tatas or mahindras or etc can make any product they like but at the end of the day they have to compete with the international competition in open process or armed forces must get a good product,here is the problem,,,,these companies simply cannot compete with international competition in anything really,nothing at all.



Again, why do they need to look abroad, when the biggest defence market is their homeland? They of course have not the know how to propose own developments without partners, but that's why privat companies form JVs, partnerships or simply take over foreign companies. Take the Kalyani group as another example how it works, IF the privat industry puts an effort in to provide something for the Indian defence market. They took over a foreign howitzer maker and now offer the gun as their own to the Indian Army. No 100% FDI needed, no production for foreign vendors needed, not a decade of R&D needed...


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Not really, since early this year all predictions show increase of growth between 5 and 6% this year and up to 7% possibly by next year. Our defence spendings and fundings for R&D projects never went down, all we saw in the last few years was a slightly reduced increase, but it still was an increase every year. So money was and is not a problem, but only an excuse when things didn't worked out!
> 
> 
> 
> Again, why do they need to look abroad, when the biggest defence market is their homeland? They of course have not the know how to propose own developments without partners, but that's why privat companies form JVs, partnerships or simply take over foreign companies. Take the Kalyani group as another example how it works, IF the privat industry puts an effort in to provide something for the Indian defence market. They took over a foreign howitzer maker and now offer the gun as their own to the Indian Army. No 100% FDI needed, no production for foreign vendors needed, not a decade of R&D needed...




go and read ur comments 6 months back or 1 year back on growth rate,,,then read mine.
mine proved correct and that will be the case this time too.

we need at least a year more to breech 5 percent if everything goes well,,thats how it is.

on private companies,,,,,can we force them do something which they obviously deem as a risky proposition??!!
we just cannot do that,,,if they want to do that,then its the best option.


are they doing it??no


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> u think i didn't know that??
> i got 8 negative ratings debating klj-7 radar,see the link urself.
> 
> its a small radar and not very good one.
> on aesa,yes j-10 b is carrying one.
> 
> 
> 
> its too late for that,we have missed the bus.
> fdi will revive both defence industry and economy


I did see you "speculating" on its radar and refusing to accept the general officer in barge of the programes statement.. N not to forget trolling .. 

As for being a blind JF fan .. Nope I'm not .. Truth is that of right now JFT block I is/was comparable to gripen not block52+ or NG or any other such advanced fighter.. But it's evolving into another f-16 .. A modern new gen light multi role fighter ..


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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I did see you "speculating" on its radar and refusing to accept the general officer in barge of the programes statement.. N not to forget trolling ..
> 
> As for being a blind JF fan .. Nope I'm not .. Truth is that of right now JFT block I is/was comparable to gripen not block52+ or NG or any other such advanced fighter.. But it's evolving into another f-16 .. A modern new gen light multi role fighter ..



i provided this









if u guys cannot digest the truth,its none of my problem.

and i never speculate,i provide irrefutable proof

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## Robinhood Pandey

IAF Su-30s and French Rafale

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## he-man

Robinhood Pandey said:


> IAF Su-30s and French Rafale




hate the stupid paint on mki,,,,looks like a 2 nd hand 40 year old plane


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> i provided this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if u guys cannot digest the truth,its none of my problem.
> 
> and i never speculate,i provide irrefutable proof



An old cetc pamphlet ? How original .. Considering the new radar v2 is produced by PAC .. And they gave you the statement of the JF programs chief incharge..


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## Robinhood Pandey

he-man said:


> hate the stupid paint on mki,,,,looks like a 2 nd hand 40 year old plane








From this angle . . even Rafales look old


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## he-man

Robinhood Pandey said:


> From this angle . . even Rafales look old



just look at mki's man........................damn

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## Donatello

spectribution said:


> A half made fighter inducted into service is very shortsighted on PAF's part. Maybe that's why PAF has learnt from IAF and has stopped commissioning JF 17 squadrons since 2010 in order to wait till plane reaches minimum operational capability or IOC.



Two squadrons of 20 jets have been inducted, while third one is due anytime now. They are all fully combat capable, unlike the paper plane LCA.

Go troll somewhere else.


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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> An old cetc pamphlet ? How original .. Considering the new radar v2 is produced by PAC .. And they gave you the statement of the JF programs chief incharge..



really??
produced by pac??

there was a chinese cutout and no one can understand what that reads.
it was claimed that klj-7v2 or whatever has a range of 130 km for 5 m2 which i feel highly unbelieveable as zhuk me of mig-29k has 120 km range and so has apg-69v9 desbite both of them being considerably heavier than klj-7


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> really??
> produced by pac??
> 
> there was a chinese cutout and no one can understand what that reads.
> it was claimed that klj-7v2 or whatever has a range of 130 km for 5 m2 which i feel highly unbelieveable as zhuk me of mig-29k has 120 km range and so has apg-69v9 desbite both of them being considerably heavier than klj-7



Yes kiddo .. Complete avionics of JFT are produced by KARF-PAC .. Klj since 2010 ..

Here is a pic of the radar (V2)? produced by them ..:









Enjoy.


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## he-man

Donatello said:


> Two squadrons of 20 jets have been inducted, while third one is due anytime now. They are all fully combat capable, unlike the paper plane LCA.
> 
> Go troll somewhere else.





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes kiddo .. Complete avionics of JFT are produced by KARF-PAC .. Klj since 2010 ..
> 
> Here is a pic of the radar produced by them ..:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 33983
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy.



this is not klj-7 kiddo
u ought to do better man


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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> this is not klj-7 kiddo
> u ought to do better man



Yes thts said to be the KLJ(V)2... Produced by KARF for JF.. U would know tht if you weren't banned for trolling in the JF thread.


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## Donatello

he-man said:


> this is not klj-7 kiddo
> u ought to do better man



Certainly not a toaster, like the one on LCA.

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## migflug

Can anyone tell me whats the RCS of tejas


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## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Beside what happened to the "milestones" reguarding lca? The *50km radar* range n so on?



Usual piece of crap. '50 km radar range'..?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In reality lca as of right now can't be even considered a 4th gen fighter..



Ok that was the dumbest statement I've ever heard.Care to explain ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gslv mk3 said:


> Usual piece of crap. '50 km radar range'..?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok that was the dumbest statement I've ever heard.Care to explain ?



Your own media reported it.. N quoted lca eng guys.


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## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Your own media reported it.. N quoted lca eng guys.



Its not about the radar,but about the composite radome.Composites as you may know absorb radar waves,So the composite radome of LCA have to be replaced by a quartz one.

About media,they are ill informed about this stuff as you may know.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gslv mk3 said:


> Its not about the radar,but about the composite radome.Composites as you may know absorb radar waves,So the composite radome of LCA have to be replaced by a quartz one.
> 
> About media,they are ill informed about this stuff as you may know.


Yes design issues n much more .. First resolve them .. Bcos on those specs.
Peace.


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## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes design issues n much more .. First resolve them .. *Bcos on those specs.*
> Peace.



Oh please,they are not design issues-integration of gun,refuelling probe ( already done ),further flight testing are stages every fighter project need to pass through 

And only issue,it seems is the Nosecone-well its just a Nose cone !!


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007



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## GORKHALI

*Please everyone report this guy,don't reply to TROLL. Let Mods take the action *


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## GORKHALI

Anony said:


> It is close to a generation ahead than that absurd *junk *inducted by the air force of our western neighbor


Delete your post mate.Keep This thread clean.


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## Bratva

he-man said:


> really??
> produced by pac??
> 
> there was a chinese cutout and no one can understand what that reads.
> it was claimed that klj-7v2 or whatever has a range of 130 km for 5 m2 which i feel highly unbelieveable as zhuk me of mig-29k has 120 km range and so has apg-69v9 desbite both of them being considerably heavier than klj-7





Anony said:


> It is close to a generation ahead than that absurd *junk *inducted by the air force of our western neighbor



First to nirankari Sikh he-man, KLJ-7 V-2 has become Swash plate radar with tracking to 300 degree and detection range of 130 KM for 5m2. If you want to keep in past

Swashplate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it's not our problem that you wish to remain idiot on purpose. Now tell us if LCA radar is swash plate and has a 300 degree tracking range?

And for the junk idiot, Does your Least combat aircraft has 26 degree AoA, fire BVR, has internal DFRM?


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## FNFAL

he-man said:


> u cannot expect such civility and common sense from a terrorist,can u.
> no wonder he is a think tank too and i may soon get a negative rating


That would be sad, because the senior members are usually neutral folks who hold facts before anything else.
I would also advise not to engage in racist behavior. Tit for tat is not always a viable option.


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## notsuperstitious

Internet terrorism on Tejas threads!

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## Bratva

he-man said:


> i am not gonna sit in silence if the other person starts talking trash
> 
> 
> 
> honour and sikh is pretty compatible.
> but use honour and a sunni terrorist together..........................it suddenly becomes an oxymoron



Talking trash? Despite providing proof, JF-17 firing a BVR. Any sensible member besides you can see, if states on poster has to be considered, JF-17 can't ever fire a BVR... But whom I talking too, a dumdami taksaal darban who don't even know basics of radar


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## Bratva

he-man said:


> the guy is so stupid that he thinks i said jf-17 cannot fire a bvr??!!
> 
> guess what?
> i never said it
> 
> 
> 
> see now he has gone into convulsions
> 
> 
> 
> yes bro,,its okay....u will survive in qatar hopefully



. Anyways, Let's get back to topic. Why LCA program is more focussing on integrating PGM's instead of BVR integration? Is LCA blk 1 geared towards Air to Ground to role?


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## Bratva

he-man said:


> I AM GOING BACK NOWHERE.
> 
> show me where i said jf-17 cannot fire a bvr first
> 
> 
> 
> yup,,,,falsely accusing me of saying that i didn't.
> then calling me names based on religion or sect!!



First show me, where I said, he-man said JF-17 cant fire a BVR missile? Uttay ala khana khali ae tera? Yabbriya mari jariya uddo da

And what is so bad about nirankari sikhs? Is it a abuse to sikhs? Is nirankari a gali ? Such a intolerant person you are and you accuse me of being racist


----------



## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> . Why LCA program is more focussing on integrating PGM's instead of BVR integration?



Who told you ? Derby would be integrated with LCA.


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> Who told you ? Derby would be integrated with LCA.



Pictures, news, BVR is rarely mentioned. Flying with general purpose or PGM bombs.


----------



## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> Pictures, news, BVR is rarely mentioned.



Derby was even shown on LCA 'mock up's,and there are many links available.And BVRs would be integrated before FOC,unlike many other similar projects.


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## GORKHALI

mafiya said:


> Pictures, news, BVR is rarely mentioned. Flying with general purpose or PGM bombs.


If you care to search in google ,you will get lot of news.

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## Bratva

GORKHALI said:


> If you care to search in google ,you will get lot of news.



That's why I asked. Ever since the problem of Radar dome arised, BVR seems to be put on back burner. I searched google and any news regarding BVR is in dark for now


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## GORKHALI

For All those Mega Troll Tanks : *MAY 31st
Bangalore: *Three aircraft from Tejas flight-line have successfully completed advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar as part of the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) campaign, which began in December last year. Sources associated with the project confirmed to _Express_ on Wednesday that the integration process of all new weapons on the aircraft has been completed.
"We have fired all the new weapons in all possible release modes and the results have been satisfactory. We have also completed the integration of a new drop tank as part of the FOC activity. With this, we have successfully completed the carriage, fuel transfer and jettison trials," an official, who was part of the Jamnagar trials said. It took three Tejas aircraft (LSP-3, LSP-5 and LSP-7) over 30 sorties to complete the weapon trials.
As part of the FOC, the aircraft is now being readied for all-weather trials in Bangalore. "One aircraft is also being readied for night flying with upgraded systems and software. Plans are afoot to take Tejas for hot weather trials in Gwalior next month," the official added. So far, since its maiden flight on January 4, 2001, Tejas has completed 2587 sorties logging in over 1750 hours of incident-free flying.
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman R K Tyagi said that the company is on track in rolling out the first Series Production (SP-1) aircraft. He said ahead of the Initial Operational Clearance in December last year, HAL was working parallel with the Aeronautical Developmental Agency for the finalisation of the production configuration of the aircraft. 
"The first SP-1 is in advanced stages of equipping and we will have the ground run by end of June. The SP-1 should start flying by August. The second, third and fourth production aircraft are in various stages of structural build and we hope to deliver four aircraft in the current year to the Indian Air Force (IAF)," Tyagi said.
Tyagi said that HAL will be pushing for more Tejas orders to be placed on the company. "We as a nation should mandate the use of this aircraft as a replacement of MiG-21. We should go ahead and manufacture around 200 aircraft. That will be a huge boost to India's indigenous manufacturing effort. I am confident when the production rate picks up in future, HAL should be able to manufacture 20 aircraft every year," he said. The IAF has so far placed confirmed orders of 40 Tejas aircraft, with the first 20 to be built as per the IOC standards.
*Ahead of the FOC, crucial milestones that the project needs to complete include, integration of the missiles with the radar(BVRAAM), integration of Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun, air-to-air refuelling probe, better braking system and change of nose cone radome from composite materials to quartz for an improved range.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas completes advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar*

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## Bratva

^ So what I gather, First 20 LCA would not get BVR, Only the later 20 LCA would get BVR



GORKHALI said:


> For All those Mega Troll Tanks : *MAY 31st
> Bangalore: *Three aircraft from Tejas flight-line have successfully completed advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar as part of the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) campaign, which began in December last year. Sources associated with the project confirmed to _Express_ on Wednesday that the integration process of all new weapons on the aircraft has been completed.
> "We have fired all the new weapons in all possible release modes and the results have been satisfactory. We have also completed the integration of a new drop tank as part of the FOC activity. With this, we have successfully completed the carriage, fuel transfer and jettison trials," an official, who was part of the Jamnagar trials said. It took three Tejas aircraft (LSP-3, LSP-5 and LSP-7) over 30 sorties to complete the weapon trials.
> As part of the FOC, the aircraft is now being readied for all-weather trials in Bangalore. "One aircraft is also being readied for night flying with upgraded systems and software. Plans are afoot to take Tejas for hot weather trials in Gwalior next month," the official added. So far, since its maiden flight on January 4, 2001, Tejas has completed 2587 sorties logging in over 1750 hours of incident-free flying.
> Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman R K Tyagi said that the company is on track in rolling out the first Series Production (SP-1) aircraft. He said ahead of the Initial Operational Clearance in December last year, HAL was working parallel with the Aeronautical Developmental Agency for the finalisation of the production configuration of the aircraft.
> "The first SP-1 is in advanced stages of equipping and we will have the ground run by end of June. The SP-1 should start flying by August. The second, third and fourth production aircraft are in various stages of structural build and we hope to deliver four aircraft in the current year to the Indian Air Force (IAF)," Tyagi said.
> Tyagi said that HAL will be pushing for more Tejas orders to be placed on the company. "We as a nation should mandate the use of this aircraft as a replacement of MiG-21. We should go ahead and manufacture around 200 aircraft. That will be a huge boost to India's indigenous manufacturing effort. I am confident when the production rate picks up in future, HAL should be able to manufacture 20 aircraft every year," he said. The IAF has so far placed confirmed orders of 40 Tejas aircraft, with the first 20 to be built as per the IOC standards.
> *Ahead of the FOC, crucial milestones that the project needs to complete include, integration of the missiles with the radar(BVRAAM), integration of Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun, air-to-air refuelling probe, better braking system and change of nose cone radome from composite materials to quartz for an improved range.
> 
> Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas completes advanced weapon trials in Jamnagar*




Timelines for the ‘Tejas’ programme unfortunately have tended to be vague predictions rather than a realistic appreciation of the targets to be achieved. When limited IOC was granted by the IAF last year, HAL was expected to deliver the first 20 ‘Tejas’ Mk-1 aircraft to the IAF by end 2013, followed by the next batch of 20 aircraft in mid 2015. The ‘Tejas’ was also expected to have 75 per cent indigenous content according to Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) sources by the time it attained FOC, something that will be impossible to achieve in the time-frame set. 

The second lot of 20 aircraft will see the addition of a new Close Combat Missile (CCM - Python-5), Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, rockets, guided and unguided bombs along with new drop tanks and other refinements. The mid-air refueling system, however, will be integrated only on the Mk-2 variant. The integration of the gun and BVR missile is likely to prove time consuming. The transition from IOC to FOC will see the flight envelope being extended to -3.5G to +8G from the -2G to 6G when the ‘Tejas’ was granted limited IOC. The Angle of Attack (AoA) will also be increased to 24 degrees. 

The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

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## GORKHALI

mafiya said:


> ^ So what I gather, First 20 LCA would not get BVR, Only the later 20 LCA would get BVR


????
From where you get this ??All Production units will be as per FOC except SP1 - SP4 as they already in advance stage ranging from low speed taxi trail to integration stages.So they will upgraded later.

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## Bratva

GORKHALI said:


> ????
> From where you get this ??All Production units will be as per FOC except SP1 - SP4 as they already in advance stage ranging from low speed taxi trail to integration stages.So they will upgraded later.



Link is in the post. That's why I'm asking. Has the program timeline changed once again? because Tarmak007 saying something else, another Indian website saying something else. Is there any definitive set of goals?


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## GORKHALI

mafiya said:


> Link is in the post. That's why I'm asking. Has the program timeline changed once again? because Tarmak007 saying something else, another Indian website saying something else. Is there any definitive set of goals?


The standard procedure is as follow regardless of any links. SP1 -SP 4 are to be delivered along with LSP 7 - LSP 8.
SP 1-SP 4 cannot be upgraded to FOC levels as of now. From SP 5 -SP 40 all will be BVR enabled and FOC STD.

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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> Link is in the post. That's why I'm asking. Has the program timeline changed once again? because Tarmak007 saying something else, another Indian website saying something else. Is there any definitive set of goals?


]Do you realise that you are quoting Prasun Sengupta's blog ?

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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> ]Do you realise that you are quoting Prasun Sengupta's blog ?



The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

Is this Parsun blog ?


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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015
> 
> Is this Parsun blog ?



Force is his magazine.


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## nomi007

HAL's Tejas facility in Bangalore.

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## datalibdaz

GORKHALI said:


> *Ahead of the FOC, crucial milestones that the project needs to complete include, integration of the missiles with the radar(BVRAAM), integration of Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun, air-to-air refuelling probe, better braking system and change of nose cone radome from composite materials to quartz for an improved range.*



What!!!! not even gun has been integrated on LCA...Seriously is this some joke...Apart from this the radar on LCA doesn't even support BVR enagagements....Great another nail in the coffin of IAF..... keep this project going on.. you people are doing a great great job...well done!!!


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## gslv mk3

datalibdaz said:


> What!!!! not even gun has been integrated on LCA...Seriously is this some joke...Apart from this the radar on LCA doesn't even support BVR enagagements....Great another nail in the coffin of IAF..... keep this project going on.. you people are doing a great great job...well done!!!



@Oscar @Aeronaut Take care of this troll please.

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## datalibdaz

gslv mk3 said:


> @Oscar @Aeronaut Take care of this troll please.


I am highlighting the facts from the article and you think i am troll...


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## gslv mk3

datalibdaz said:


> I am highlighting the facts from the article and you think i am troll...



''LCA took 40 years.''
''LCA's radar range is hardly 50 km's & doesn't even support BVR enagagements.''
''LCA cannot none can fire bvr or even wvr missile.''
''LCA has RCS of 5m2''

You have won...

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## datalibdaz

gslv mk3 said:


> ''LCA took 40 years.''
> ''LCA's radar range is hardly 50 km's & doesn't even support BVR enagagements.''
> ''LCA cannot none can fire bvr or even wvr missile.''
> ''LCA has RCS of 5m2''
> ''LCA has no gun''
> ''LCA radar doen't support BVR''



Thanks!!! You don't either have any proofs to debunk my claim's...Above are the reasons due to which IAF is not in the mood of inducting this plane, rather LCA is being forced down IAF throat...


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## gslv mk3

datalibdaz said:


> Thanks!!! You don't either have any proofs to debunk my claim's




















> Project definition commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September 1988.The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small tail-less delta winged machine with relaxed static stability (RSS) to enhance manoeuvrability performance.Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorised until April 1993



do the math for yourself.

And whats the range of Elta M2032 ? your guess ?

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## datalibdaz

gslv mk3 said:


> do the math for yourself.
> 
> And whats the range of Elta M2032 ? your guess ?



R-73 is an infrared-guided missile, range less than 30 km's ( it is still in testing phase)..We are talking about radar homing BVR's...
Apart from the video both articles doesn't state any figures..or do they???
range of Elta M2032 is 80nm or 130 km's, but the nose of the aircraft distorts the radars performance decreasing it by more than 50 %..


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## gslv mk3

datalibdaz said:


> R-73 is an infrared-guided missile, range less than 30 km's ( it is still in testing phase)..We are talking about radar homing BVR's...



You did say it cant fire a WVR,didnt you ? And you did say it cant carry anything other than dumb bombs.

Now prove that Elta 2032 doesn't support BVR enagagements.



> Apart from the video both articles doesn't state any figures..or do they???



What figures ? RCS or time taken ?

About RCS its 1/3 rd of comparable fourth gen designs.And development period is 24 years,from finalization of design to entry into service.



> range of Elta M2032 is 80nm or 130 km's, but the nose of the aircraft distorts the radars performance decreasing it by more than 50 %..



Hence a new quartz radome is being developed.

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## sancho

@gslv mk3

You are putting way too much effort on trying to make people understand, that doesn't want to understand, so why bother? You made some very informative post a few days ago in another thread and I suggest to simply make such posts here as well and let the facts speaks for itself. Those who are interested in the fighter, it's techs and capabilities will appreciate it, those who only want blame games won't but should not bother you.

Just ignore the trolls and keep the thread on the LCA and it's development!

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## IndoUS

nomi007 said:


> HAL's Tejas facility in Bangalore.


@sancho are these the final production planes that will be given to the IAF or are these for testing purposes?


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## sancho

IndoUS said:


> are these the final production planes that will be given to the IAF or are these for testing purposes?



No, they include prototypes and early versions too. Some of them has the old APU for example and at the left side, you can see the vertical tail of the N-LCA MK1.

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## Basel

India have money because their economy is doing well so they can afford many military projects and LCA is one of them, also west want them against China so they will get tech which west may not like to provide to others therefore their equipment will be having advance tech same goes for LCA it has foreign equipment like engine, radar etc and Dassault helped them in perfecting the design of the plane.

If all above mentioned factors were available to Pakistan then JF-17 would have been much more advance plane then most modern F-16s block-60/61.

Pakistan brothers please don't get into troll posts regarding LCA as it will be a 4.5 gen plane soon but it will take India to make it fully indigenous as they claim it is now.

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## SR-91

Basel said:


> India have money because their economy is doing well so they can afford many military projects and LCA is one of them, also west want them against China so they will get tech which west may not like to provide to others therefore their equipment will be having advance tech same goes for LCA it has foreign equipment like engine, radar etc and Dassault helped them in perfecting the design of the plane.
> 
> If all above mentioned factors were available to Pakistan then JF-17 would have been much more advance plane then most modern F-16s block-60/61.
> 
> Pakistan brothers please don't get into troll posts regarding LCA as it will be a 4.5 gen plane soon but it will take India to make it fully indigenous as they claim it is now.





You definitely deserve a personal thanks. So thank u for admitting.


----------



## danish_vij

Basel said:


> India have money because their economy is doing well so they can afford many military projects and LCA is one of them, also west want them against China so they will get tech which west may not like to provide to others therefore their equipment will be having advance tech same goes for LCA it has foreign equipment like engine, radar etc and Dassault helped them in perfecting the design of the plane.
> 
> If all above mentioned factors were available to Pakistan then JF-17 would have been much more advance plane then most modern F-16s block-60/61.
> 
> Pakistan brothers please don't get into troll posts regarding LCA as it will be a 4.5 gen plane soon but it will take India to make it fully indigenous as they claim it is now.


balanced post............


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## Manticore

To members
If a JuniorTT responds in a way not expected from a title holder, please take snaps and make a thread in ghq
We have demoted members in the past however post a visual documentation so we can share with TT chairman as well
ty

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## invictus jv

WebMaster said:


> Actually, without Russian assitance. LCA will never get to fight in the air. Right now it has no hope.  While JF-17 numbers have increased from 150 to 200-250. Thats what you call a successful aircraft.


Then chinese finally did it


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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> Pakistan brothers please don't get into troll posts regarding LCA as it will be a 4.5 gen plane soon but it will take India to make it fully indigenous as they claim it is now.



There is no need to have a fully Indigenous fighter as far as it works perfectly.Is Gripen fully indigenous ? No.

But if they can increase the Indigenous content from 60% to 75 % as planned,by indigenization of various LRUs,then it would surely be a great achievement

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## rockstarIN

TimeToScoot said:


> @sancho
> 
> Are you a part of some official defense think tank or a part of the armed forces? Just curious. Your posts are very informative and enlightening. Also, if LCA Mk2 and Rafale are both 4.5 Gen Multi Role fighters, would it be advisable for the Indian government to scrap the MMRCA contract?




He is in Dassult's pay roll.

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## Basel

SR-91 said:


> You definitely deserve a personal thanks. So thank u for admitting.



You are welcome  as for JF-17 it will also become 4.5 gen fighter as PAF have realize that they need Hi-Lo mix of this fighter as the plane is locally built so they can play with it as they want, and also making sure that if sanctions hit F-16s there are some JF-17s units to handle the threat.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> He is in Dassult's pay roll.



That's a new one, so far people thought I was on Airbus pay roll.

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## Dillinger

Manticore said:


> To members
> If a JuniorTT responds in a way not expected from a title holder, please take snaps and make a thread in ghq
> We have demoted members in the past however post a visual documentation so we can share with TT chairman as well
> ty



Does this mean that I cannot balance my usually brilliant posts with a few scathing pot shots at posters? 

How will I pull Buttsy's leg now, @Armstrong convince Manti to give us a standing exemption.


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## Manticore

Dillinger said:


> Does this mean that I cannot balance my usually brilliant posts with a few scathing pot shots at posters?
> 
> How will I pull Buttsy's leg now, @Armstrong convince Manti to give us a standing exemption.


members club is the place then, if the other person doesnt report you -- otherwise you are in for butt sahib's harassment


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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> That's a new one, so far people thought I was on Airbus pay roll.


Cut me in and I'll sing praises of whoever pays me the most. You and I can team up for the job.

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## Basel

gslv mk3 said:


> There is no need to have a fully Indigenous fighter as far as it works perfectly.Is Gripen fully indigenous ? No.
> But if they can increase the Indigenous content from 60% to 75 % as planned,by indigenization of various LRUs,then it would surely be a great achievement



LCA, Gripen & JF-17 are all Indigenous planes for their countries as now it is not necessary for all nations to develop all tech in house to build planes, and in future we will see these planes evolve to new planes, F-16s & Mig-29s are good example of that.

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## armchairPrivate

FLY TEJAS FLY
DIVE TEJAS DIVE!!!!


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## Dandpatta

^^^ into armchairprivate's pants.

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## 1ndy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes kiddo .. Complete avionics of JFT are produced by KARF-PAC .. Klj since 2010 ..
> 
> Here is a pic of the radar (V2)? produced by them ..:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 33983
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy.



But the warning on the RADAR was written in China.

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## Storm Force

Desert Fighter re


> Yes kiddo .. Complete avionics of JFT are produced by KARF-PAC .. Klj since 2010 ..


 
You dont produce the avionics YOU LICENSE MANUFACTURE them.

Just like Indian License builds SU30MKI in India for last 10 years

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## spectribution

Donatello said:


> Two squadrons of 20 jets have been inducted, while third one is due anytime now. They are all fully combat capable, unlike the paper plane LCA.
> 
> Go troll somewhere else.



anytime due now? 4 years have passed since last squadron inducted.


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## Bratva

Storm Force said:


> Desert Fighter re
> 
> You dont produce the avionics YOU LICENSE MANUFACTURE them.
> 
> *Just like Indian License builds SU30MKI in India for last 10 years*




Kits come in, You just assemble them, be truthful about it. Nuts, bolts majority parts come in from Russia.


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## gslv mk3

spectribution said:


> anytime due now? 4 years have passed since last squadron inducted.



Leave it bro,they are just jealous .


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## Bratva

spectribution said:


> anytime due now? 4 years have passed since last squadron inducted.



Funding issues slowed down the project considerably


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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> Kits come in, You just assemble them, be truthful about it. Nuts, bolts majority parts come in from Russia.



Absolute Bull shit!!

Even the* Al 31 FP turbofan is manufactured *in India,and many avionic components were* developed* in India


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> Leave it bro,they are just jealous .



If you don't know about issues holding certain project, it does make you ignorant though


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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> If you don't know about issues holding certain project, it does make you ignorant though



Jealousy is calling 'LCA a paper plane' while his own country is yet to develop aircrafts on its own.


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## spectribution

he-man said:


> really??
> produced by pac??
> 
> there was a chinese cutout and no one can understand what that reads.
> it was claimed that klj-7v2 or whatever has a range of 130 km for 5 m2 which i feel highly unbelieveable as zhuk me of mig-29k has 120 km range and so has apg-69v9 desbite both of them being considerably heavier than klj-7



Old one for MK 1 has 105 km for 5 msq, MK 3 has 130 km for 5msq.

Tejas 150 km for 5msq in MK 1, in MK 2 it will have AESA with approx 200 km for 5msq.


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> Absolute Bull shit!!
> 
> Even the* Al 31 FP turbofan is manufactured *in India,and many avionic components were* developed* in India



You want me to put articles now? Shame many discussions occurred and you missed those. Like this one

Entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet to arrive by 2019

Atleast know about your facts before jumping wildly in a discussion


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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> You want me to put articles now? Shame many discussions occurred and you missed those. Like this one
> 
> Entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet to arrive by 2019
> 
> Atleast know about your facts before jumping wildly in a discussion



From your own article-"*For raw materials production to be commercially viable, India's aerospace companies would need to produce in larger volumes. That means they must become global suppliers, as a part of a major aerospace company's global supply chain. Licensed manufacture for our own needs does not create adequate demand*," says Daljeet Singh, HAL Nashik's manufacturing head.''

And Pakistan produces these for its own?Titanium ? 

The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French, South African and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics. They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.

The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:


*Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)*
*Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)*
*Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE*
*IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)*
*Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)*
*Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)*
*Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)*
*Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE*


The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.

These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.

The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.

The navigation/weapons systems from the various countries were integrated by Ramenskoye RPKB.

HAL will supply components to Irkut for 300 Su-30s meant for export to Malaysia and Algeria apart from those meant for IAF

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## Bratva

spectribution said:


> Old one for MK 1 has 105 km for 5 msq, MK 3 has 130 km for 5msq.
> 
> Tejas 150 km for 5msq in MK 1, in MK 2 it will have AESA with approx 200 km for 5msq.



_The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said_

Your Radar has not reached it's full capacity yet.


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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> _The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said_
> 
> Your Radar has not reached it's full capacity yet.



Is it about radar or nose cone ?

Ans-Nosecone


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## spectribution

mafiya said:


> _The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said_
> 
> Your Radar has not reached it's full capacity yet.



Range is range. If anything this just proves how stealthy the Tejas is! It bloody eats up it's own radar waves!


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> Is it about radar or nose cone ?
> 
> Ans-Nosecone



Has Tejas radar reached it's 150 KM range yet? 

Ans= No


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## Bratva

spectribution said:


> We are making avionics as well as making SU 30 MKI from raw materials like titanium blocks provided by Russia.



It doesn't matter. You can't claim ownership of SU-30 MKI. You can't sell it to 3rd party. You still have to send SU-30 MKI to russia when cracks appear in it (correct me if i'm wrong). Your whole contribution amounts to 20-30 percent

Now come over to JF-17. Pakistan initial involvement is 50 percent due to less learning curve which would be increased to 80 percent by 2016. Full ownership, can sell it to 3rd part.

Jeez, Still you have an audacity to say JF-17 is license manufacturing like SU-30. Grow up


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> From where did you get that figure ?Pakistan builds 60 % JF 17 ( that too without the engine ),But for MKI,its 30 %?
> 
> Components produced for AL 31FP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 120 for Indigenous MMR,150 km for Elta - Indian hybrid.




The figure I get is from Pak Aeronautical complex website and JF-17 director interviews published in AFI in recent months.

Which Radar is going in to Tejas then, Indigenous or Elta?


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## spectribution

mafiya said:


> The figure I get is from Pak Aeronautical complex website and JF-17 director interviews published in AFI in recent months.
> 
> Which Radar is going in to Tejas then, Indigenous or Elta?



Hybrid, Indian Nodes, ELTA Back end processor i.e 120 km for 2 msq target, 150 km for 5msq target.

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## gslv mk3

mafiya said:


> Source? You are blowing too much stream with out any sources





> The MMR radar is seen installed on the 'Hack' aircraft. This radar is being developed under the LCA 'Tejas' programme and has an intended detection range of 120 km vs a 2 sq.m target. The Hack is offered for other testing purposes as well. (CABS via B Harry)
> 
> India's flying Testbeds





> If India is making titanium does it mean it is 100 percent making SU-30 in house? Oh Please, Out of 30 K components, if 10 K components are being built, it doesn't mean you are 100 percent manufacturing something. Even the maintenance issues and involvement of russians point to this fact



How does that make 30 %? You are counting by numbers & not value ?


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> How does that make 30 %? You are counting by numbers & not value ?



What is value pray tell us? Does Aircraft run on value or on components?


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## acetophenol

mafiya said:


> Here is the link I find and according to it, India does not manufacture 100 percent SU-30 not even 50 percent of it
> 
> Entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet to arrive by 2019


Is it so hard to understand? We have import all basic materials like bolts and rivets from Russia that India could've made locally,because the contracts specifies so. HAL alone makes 10k components,not to count other private players. Now whats the 50% contribution from Pakistan in Jf-17?

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## Bratva

acetophenol said:


> Is it so hard to understand? We have import all basic materials like bolts and rivets from Russia that India could've made locally,because the contracts specifies so. HAL alone makes 10k components,not to count other private players. Now whats the 50% contribution from Pakistan in Jf-17?



Can India claim the ownership of SU-30 MKI?


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## acetophenol

mafiya said:


> What is value pray tell us? Does Aircraft run on value or on components?


Screws,bolts,rivets etc are basic components and can be made locally easily,so they are of low value and high numbers. And there are high value components like MFDs,RWRs etc which needs to be made locally,savy?

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## Dazzler

nope, su30 is not a jv, simplest reason, russia can sell, has sold it to many without indian permission. MKI is just a customised version for india nothing more. there is NO joint venture in it. ToT yes. India cannot sell mki since it lacks key echnology and right to do so.

unlike jft which is a jv between catic and pac, catic cannot sell jft without pac approval which holds 58% stake in the project.


now back toLCA please.


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## SR-91

*The icing on the cake of this India shining story is that 90 per cent of engineers, designers, technicians and managers part of this homegrown project are youngsters in the average age group of 25 to 40 years.*
*
Now this is an achievement *


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## acetophenol

mafiya said:


> So let's end this debate right here that SU-30 and JF-17 are similar projects. Let's continue with Tejas discussion.


Well said. Development wise,Jf-17 and Su-30MKI are similiar,as they both are JVs,Pakistan's first experience making a combat jet and not so about India. For Tejas,Pakistan doesn't have an exact counterpart,development wise. By the way,whats Pakistan's contribution in Jf 17?

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## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> They are the only country who is flying it ..



back to lca plz, if interested in jft, chk info pool.


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## gslv mk3

@mafiya 

The visit covered indigenisation cell, manufacturing facilities for 4.5 generation aircraft, newly-established repair and overhaul facilities, final assembly of Su-30MKI aircraft and flight-testing hangar. The Air Chief appreciated the extent of technology absorption, indigenisation and the confidence level to take up ROH of Su-30MKI aircraft by HAL.

Presently. HAL is manufacturing the aircraft from* the raw material phase and till date has produced 150 aircraft. HAL has manufactured approximately 43,000 components in airframe and 6,300 components for engines. Twenty six special technologies have also been absorbed and mastered. With this, 70 per cent components are now made in India by HAL with 100 per cent technology absorption as per the contract in airframe and engine.*

HAL, IAF, ministry working on defence needs | Business Standard

Now thats official...

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## Dazzler

eowyn said:


> MKI is not a JV .it never was .. but then for a fighter manufactured with TOT we make more components in house than u guys do for ur indigenous fighter .



80% avionics, 50-60% airframe, 

L.C.A..


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## trident2010

When will the IAF start flying Tejas? After FoC maybe??


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> L.C.A..



75% at FOC is the target.


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## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> When will the IAF start flying Tejas? After FoC maybe??



yes afrer FOC, trial batch should be inducted for further trials


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## sancho

gslv mk3 said:


> "With this, 70 per cent components are now made in India by HAL with 100 per cent technology absorption as per the contract in airframe and engine.



So apart of the 70% that HAL makes, there are also parts that are outsourced to other Indian companies, like the MFDs that SAMTEL produces, EW parts of BEL..., more interesting however is the 100% of ToT in airframe and "engine".

*Anyway, this is neither MKI nor JF 17 thread so everybody please back to topic!*

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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> ...



Negative rating for personal attacks! Post reported, I hope the webby and the mods will clean the thread and we can finally get back to LCA discussions again.


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## RPK



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## IND151

gslv mk3 said:


> @mafiya
> 
> The visit covered indigenisation cell, manufacturing facilities for 4.5 generation aircraft, newly-established repair and overhaul facilities, final assembly of Su-30MKI aircraft and flight-testing hangar. The Air Chief appreciated the extent of technology absorption, indigenisation and the confidence level to take up ROH of Su-30MKI aircraft by HAL.
> 
> Presently. HAL is manufacturing the aircraft from* the raw material phase and till date has produced 150 aircraft. HAL has manufactured approximately 43,000 components in airframe and 6,300 components for engines. Twenty six special technologies have also been absorbed and mastered. With this, 70 per cent components are now made in India by HAL with 100 per cent technology absorption as per the contract in airframe and engine.*
> 
> HAL, IAF, ministry working on defence needs | Business Standard
> 
> Now thats official...



Nice info.

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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> I think that was harsh bro !!!!!!!!



It doesn't matter what he tries to prove, but the first part is a clear personal attack against another member, which is against froum rules. Besides that Dazzler and I have repeatedly asked to keep disscussions on topic again.


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## Jayanta

UFO77 said:


> LCA plus hang a basket, you can develop what India's tourism industry.



What do you want to say...


----------



## acetophenol

RPK said:


>



Is it a system to wash our aircrafts or is it just LCA on the runway after a rain?


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## Storm Force

acetophenol said:


> Is it a system to wash our aircrafts or is it just LCA on the runway after a rain?


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## acetophenol

@Storm Force Can't see a thing bro.


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## Storm Force

Sorry PC Trouble

Just wanted to say GREAT NEW PICTURE OF LCA Tejas.

I just wish we had a squadron or two up and running

for me the Tejas already has superiority over its main adversary/competitor

1. American engines have better maintenance and longer lives
2. Tejas can carry a Indian Israeli & Russian BVR missle its not limited to one parent country
3. Tejas has more advanced build structure and flight control
4. Tejas RCS is said to be lowest in the IAF virtue of its size and composite build.

All winning attributes.

BUT where TEJAS fails is the length of time to get thru IOC & FOC and the slow almost standstil production capacity.

We Build 8 a year thry can build 16

THIS HAS TO CHANGE

ANYWAT CHECK THESE TEJAS CALENDER PICTURES FOLKES
Calendar 2014 - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft

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## Water Car Engineer



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## sathya

What is that shiny metallic intakes and exhaust on either side near the vertical fin on either side


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## sathya

Changes in rear under fuselage , right side bump behind oil exhaust , and may be dorsal spine are seen in KH 2018


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## shree835




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## IND151

Export Potential of Tejas: Analysis | idrw.org


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## Jayanta

IND151 said:


> Export Potential of Tejas: Analysis | idrw.org



Export....whom?? Will somebody buy a fighter from DRDO who is finding it difficult to induct LCA into the IAF. The MK-2 is now delayed by 5 years....MK-1 still struggling to get inducted. I mean why not speak less and concentrate on working and delivering things on time and not increasing the budget after every delay.


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## Abingdonboy

Jayanta said:


> Will somebody buy a fighter from DRDO who is* finding it difficult to induct LCA into the IAF. *


A strange comment. IAF has placed the orders, now it is just a matter of a few months...



Jayanta said:


> The MK-2 is now delayed by 5 years.


Not true in anyway.


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## halupridol

Jayanta said:


> Export....whom?? Will somebody buy a fighter from DRDO who is finding it difficult to induct LCA into the IAF. The MK-2 is now delayed by 5 years....MK-1 still struggling to get inducted. I mean why not *speak less and concentrate on work*ing and delivering things on time and not increasing the budget after every delay.


that seems impossible for them to do........


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## Jayanta

Abingdonboy said:


> A strange comment. IAF has placed the orders, now it is just a matter of a few months...
> 
> 
> Not true in anyway.



Few months....lets see 12 months or 36


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## GORKHALI

Jayanta said:


> Export....whom?? Will somebody buy a fighter from DRDO who is finding it difficult to induct LCA into the IAF. The MK-2 is now delayed by 5 years....MK-1 still struggling to get inducted. I mean why not speak less and concentrate on working and delivering things on time and not increasing the budget after every delay.


Well you are no different than an Indian defence journos.IAF GSQR is just too stringent which even red flagged F16 and F18,forget about LCA.When LCA mk1 get certified per FOC,it is more than enough for smaller coubtries like Ecudor, colombia,vietnam etc to do the air patrolling and give CAS to any breakout.Now at the cost of 26milion$ ,u get a brand new aircraft with world class systems also the data available in general is transparent compare to many contemporary planes in same class available with rigged or boasted data.

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## Agent_47

If DSI intake is so good in reducing RCS, why don't LCA mk2 utilize it? we are redesigning it anyway.


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> If DSI intake is so good in reducing RCS, why don't LCA mk2 utilize it? we are redesigning it anyway.



Because it has no relation to reducing the RCS, but is a feature to improve the engine performance. The common claim that it hides the engine is just BS, since all the fighters that uses DSI have ducted air intakes for exatly that reason. Btw, we are not re-designing the air intake of MK2, reportedly the inlet will just be enlarged to a minor extend, but lets wait and see, if that turns out as a false claim by ADA/DRDO too.

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> Because it has no relation to reducing the RCS, but is a feature to improve the engine performance. The common claim that it hides the engine is just BS, since all the fighters that uses DSI have ducted air intakes for exatly that reason.



where do u read this stuff pal?? ever woner why LO stealth planes like f-35, j-20 and j-31 all using this intake design? i guess they will all have to reconsider their strategy since u rated it BS..lol

FAST HISTORY: LOCKHEED’S DIVERTERLESS SUPERSONIC INLET TESTBED F-16 | AviationIntel.com


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## Jayanta

GORKHALI said:


> Well you are no different than an Indian defence journos.IAF GSQR is just too stringent which even red flagged F16 and F18,forget about LCA.When LCA mk1 get certified per FOC,it is more than enough for smaller coubtries like Ecudor, colombia,vietnam etc to do the air patrolling and give CAS to any breakout.Now at the cost of 26milion$ ,u get a brand new aircraft with world class systems also the data available in general is transparent compare to many contemporary planes in same class available with rigged or boasted data.



DRDO claim on LCA export premature: Former top IAF officers | idrw.org
Isn't it the same thing that I pointed out. Well this thread has been running since 2006-7 if I am not wrong...and we are yet to induct a squadron in the MK-1 config...forget the MK-2. 

This is a promise...I won't post a single comment +ve or -ve on LCA until IAF has an operational squadron. Lets see how many years I have to wait.


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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> where do u read this stuff pal?? ever woner why LO stealth planes like f-35, j-20 and j-31 all using this intake design?



From reliable sources like this for example:
Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet

And I would suggest to read and understand before commenting on it, since you neither have understood what your own source says about the goal of DSI:


> Diverterless inlet technology utilizes a hump on the inboard side of a jet intake along with a forward swept outer intake fairing *to separate boundary layer air and to slow down airflow reaching the jet’s engine face* during supersonic maneuvers.
> 
> It does this without moving parts and allows for the deletion of heavy and complicated intake diverters, intake ramps and cones.



nor why this feature is used on JF17, J10B, J20, J31 and F35, while it isn't in the Eurocanards, The F22, T50/Pak Fa, ATD-X designs.

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## spectribution

sancho said:


> From reliable sources like this for example:
> Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet
> 
> And I would suggest to read and understand before commenting on it, since you neither have understood what your own source says about the goal of DSI:
> 
> nor why this feature is used on JF17, J10B, J20, J31 and F35, while it isn't in the Eurocanards, The F22, T50/Pak Fa, ATD-X designs.



Basic thing about DSI is that it helps prevent compressor stall due to boundary layer air. Helps in decelerating plane. No effect on maneuverability though.


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> From reliable sources like this for example:
> Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet
> 
> And I would suggest to read and understand before commenting on it, since you neither have understood what your own source says about the goal of DSI:
> 
> 
> nor why this feature is used on JF17, J10B, J20, J31 and F35, while it isn't in the Eurocanards, The F22, T50/Pak Fa, ATD-X designs.



dont tell me code one magazine know more about the dsi than its designers,you need to bring more than a magazine to support your claim. 
lastly, i dont appreciate condescending tone so watch out in future. either bring proof or remain quiet on things you have little idea about.


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## Didact

Dazzler said:


> dont tell me code one magazine know more about the dsi than its designers,you need to bring more than a magazine to support your claim.
> lastly, i dont appreciate condescending tone so watch out in future. either bring proof or remain quiet on things you have little idea about.



The logic behind the DSI as stated by Code about separation of boundary layer flow by One magazine is certainly true, irrespective of whether it enhances stealth or not. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know, but knowledge of fluid engineering certainly helps.

The same principle is used in a large number of other projects, though I concede not by such a fancy name. We use it even for submerged structures.

So when you do decide to launch a tirade against something, you better know what you are talking about.

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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> dont tell me code one magazine know more about the dsi than its designers


First of all, since the magazine belongs to Lockheed Martin, I am pretty sure they know what they are talking about.



Dazzler said:


> you need to bring more than a magazine to support your claim.
> lastly, i dont appreciate condescending tone so watch out in future. either bring proof or remain quiet on things you have little idea about.



Secondly, if there were a condescending tone in my statement, it might had been based on your poor try to take a hit at me without understanding the issue, nor that your own source actually confirms what I said about the goal of DSI! There is no need for me to prove more, since I already gave you all the infos you need, you just need to undertand what that feature is meant to do.

Anyway, back to topic!

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> First of all, since the magazine belongs to Lockheed Martin, I am pretty sure they know what they are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, if there were a condescending tone in my statement, it might had been based on your poor try to take a hit at me without understanding the issue, nor that your own source actually confirms what I said about the goal of DSI!
> 
> Anyway, back to topic!



that sums up the argument, you really need to see thingsthe waythey are but i guess you are so used to plan fantasy scenarios that.... lol

have fun in your world


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## drunken-monke

Dazzler said:


> that sums up the argument, you really need to see thingsthe waythey are but i guess you are so used to plan fantasy scenarios that.... lol
> 
> have fun in your world


The difference between two think tanks is evident.....

Between at the topic @sancho since the Mk2 is a atleast 4-5 yrs away, will the HAL be able to fulfill the requirement???

Second thing, since Mk2 is would be better than Mk1 (off course) then will the existing Mk1's upgraded to Mk2 as MLU at that moment (when delivery of Mk2 completed)???

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## Dazzler

drunken-monke said:


> The difference between two think tanks is evident.....



stay on topic, stop ranting or get reported !


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## sancho

drunken-monke said:


> the Mk2 is a atleast 4-5 yrs away, will the HAL be able to fulfill the requirement???



HAL is the manufacturer of the fighter, but it's ADA and DRDO that are developing it, so it depends on ADA to get the design problems under control and to make the MK2 changes, just as it's up to DRDO to get a usful radar, avionics and to get the project on track including integration of the new engine.



drunken-monke said:


> Second thing, since Mk2 is would be better than Mk1 (off course) then will the existing Mk1's upgraded to Mk2 as MLU at that moment (when delivery of Mk2 completed)???



That needs to be seen, they either will upgrade them after 10 to 15 years in service, or might go the way they did with Su 30K, by selling the older versions and ordering new varients.

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## raazh

According to this artice India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod - NDTV 

Senior IAF officials are saying that IAF may lose its traditional conventional edge against Pakistan if the contract for 126 Rafale is not clinched immediately, Does IAF believe that Su30, upgraded Mirage2000 and Mig29 cannot achieve air superiority against PAF ?? 
Also IAF is saying that LCA reach is barely 200 km and that they need a plane with atleast 1000KM range. Is this true or there is something wrong in the reporting?


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

raazh said:


> According to this artice India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod - NDTV
> 
> Senior IAF officials are saying that IAF may lose its traditional conventional edge against Pakistan if the contract for 126 Rafale is not clinched immediately, Does IAF believe that Su30, upgraded Mirage2000 and Mig29 cannot achieve air superiority against PAF ??
> Also IAF is saying that LCA reach is barely 200 km and that they need a plane with atleast 1000KM range. Is this true or there is something wrong in the reporting?



Pls do some research, read the ADA IOC release where you will get the figures. Aircraft reach is not a fixed figure and depends on mission. As far as IAF is concerned...no comments!!


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## GORKHALI

raazh said:


> According to this artice India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod - NDTV
> 
> Senior IAF officials are saying that IAF may lose its traditional conventional edge against Pakistan if the contract for 126 Rafale is not clinched immediately, Does IAF believe that Su30, upgraded Mirage2000 and Mig29 cannot achieve air superiority against PAF ??
> Also IAF is saying that LCA reach is barely 200 km and that they need a plane with atleast 1000KM range. Is this true or there is something wrong in the reporting?



Its a misquote....or either IAF personal is misinformed.


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## spectribution

Rafale will be bought as we need an MMRCA for MiG 29UPG, Mirage 2000Mk2 supplement, replacement of Jaguar and MiG 27.

That said Tejas is a beauty and is for MiG 21 replacement. Well thought out plans but @$$hole UPA delayed deal to nth time.


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## raazh

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Pls do some research, read the ADA IOC release where you will get the figures. Aircraft reach is not a fixed figure and depends on mission. As far as IAF is concerned...no comments!!


It is not my observation. Its being reported via senior Indian Air Force officials. It could have been a out of context quote had the officials said that its range is not sufficient for what ever mission they have in mind; But when they give you an exact figure 200KM and complain that they need around 1000KM then this should not just be considered as a slip of tongue or lack of information.

@GORKHALI You and I can be misinformed; but if you say that senior IAF official, who have spent all their service in the force and have reached a decision making post is misinformed then that actually raises more serious concerns on the Force itself.

@spectribution Please see the statement again. IAF officials are not complaining about the lack of quantity (by the way even that is more than what PAF fields). They are complaining about loss of conventional edge. This obviously include all the fighter types in your inventory. So my question is that the ppl who fly the planes and train day and night with them are not confident enough to face a F16B52 ??


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## GORKHALI

raazh said:


> It is not my observation. Its being reported via senior Indian Air Force officials. It could have been a out of context quote had the officials said that its range is not sufficient for what ever mission they have in mind; But when they give you an exact figure 200KM and complain that they need around 1000KM then this should not just be considered as a slip of tongue or lack of information.
> 
> @GORKHALI You and I can be misinformed; but if you say that senior IAF official, who have spent all their service in the force and have reached a decision making post is misinformed then that actually raises more serious concerns on the Force itself.
> 
> @spectribution Please see the statement again. IAF officials are not complaining about the lack of quantity (by the way even that is more than what PAF fields). They are complaining about loss of conventional edge. This obviously include all the fighter types in your inventory. So my question is that the ppl who fly the planes and train day and night with them are not confident enough to face a F16B52 ??


Don't count me in your club mate.I know IAF more than you do.*Bookmarked it
*

The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today handed over the Release to Service Certificate of the country’s own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, at a function in Bengaluru, marking the fruition of a long and difficult journey of three decades of efforts to make a fighter aircraft of international standards.

Described as Initial Operational Clearance-II of Tejas, the LCA is designed to ultimately replace the Mig 21 fleet of IAF. The timing of IOC- II for LCA coincides with the iconic Mig 21 FL fighter flying into IAF’s history just a week ago.

Visibly happy at today’s event, Shri Antony said, during the last three years, the capabilities of the aircraft have been improved significantly. “In recognition of the enhanced capabilities, IAF has decided to grant the aircraft a higher status, namely, the Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the Service”, he said.

Shri Antony candidly confessed that he had his share of anxieties regarding the future of LCA when he had taken over as the Defence Minister in 2006 but today we are putting behind the moments of self –doubt, frustrations and setbacks which we as a nation have gone through in the last 30 years.

“The improvements to the aircraft have enhanced the flight envelope of the aircraft and also weapon delivery capability of the aircraft. The performance at Iron Fist, Jaisalmer and the recent missile firing at Goa are examples of such improvements. The reliability of the aircraft and serviceability has also been enhanced. The number of flights nearing 500 within this year provides an indication of this. Operating at IAF bases namely, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwaliar, Goa, Leh, Pathankot demonstrate the aircraft capability to operate from Air Force bases. There have also been occasions when the same aircraft has flown thrice on the same day, indicating the operational reliability of this home-bred fighter aircraft ”, he said.

Shri Antony said military aviation in the country has got a major boost with the approval of several new programmes. Some of these programmes include – Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft, to name a few.

Describing the attainment of Initial Operational Clearance as an important milestone in the long journey towards indigenization through self-reliance, Shri Antony said, our public and private sector must work in tandem to develop and produce world-class military systems of the highest quality.

The Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said it is indeed a proud day for the nation and particularly for the IAF; since the grant of IOC acknowledges the capabilities of this aircraft and paves the way for the induction of LCA Mk 1 into operational service. He said the progress of such a challenging experimental project without any accident or major incident is unprecedented in the history of aviation.

On a personal note, ACM Browne said as he prepares to hang his uniform at the end of this month, he would have gone home as a disappointed person if the IOC of the LCA had not been achieved.

Today’s event was attended among others by the Scientific Advisor to RM Shri Avinash Chander, Secretary Defence Production Shri GC Pati, Chairman of HAL Shri RK Tyagi, Programme Director of ADA Shri PS Subramanyam, DG- Aero and CE CEMILAC Dr K Tamil Mani.

* A Long Journey*

The Country had embarked on an ambitious plan to indigenously design and develop the Light Combat aircraft (LCA) to be inducted into IAF and Indian Navy inventory. The Programme has been spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore under the Department of Defence R & D, with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as its principal partner. A large number of Laboratories of Defence Research & DevelopmentOrganisation (DRDO) and Central Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR), certification agencies, Indian Air Force, academic institutions and Private/Public Sector Undertakings participated in the LCA development effort.

Indian Light Combat Aircraft, christened ‘Tejas’, is the smallest, light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic, multirole, combat aircraft and is one of the best in its class in the world. The quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system ensures acceptable handling qualities while ensuring adequate safety throughout the flight envelope. The advanced Glass cockpit open architecture system complements piloting. Four variants of Tejas aircraft (Combat variant, Trainer and Naval variants) are being developed for land and carrier borne operations.

The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-I) for ‘Tejas’ was achieved on 10 Jan 2011. In IOC-I, the Aircraft had a few limitations in terms of Combat performance, turn around time and its weaponisation which had to be refined and improved through Research & Development process. In addition to this, Wake penetration trials, all weather clearances were planned beyond IOC-1.

Since IOC-1, ‘Tejas’ has accomplished significant milestones. Till date, more than 2450 sorties have been completed to achieve the flight test goals towards IOC-2. The design issues were resolved with System Engineering approach and by periodical reviews with participation of external experts.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include Safe flying up to High angle of Attack as mandated by the users. This has considerably enhanced the combat performance of the aircraft. The Flight control system evaluation has also been completed. The time for initial built-in test has been reduced considerably which enables faster turn around and enhanced operational readiness of aircraft. The Brake system has been improved significantly in terms of energy absorption capability during landing, thus ensuring prompt turn-around of the aircraft. Significant improvement in Cockpit ergonomic and lighting system has been accomplished for improved night flying. In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement. Avionics and Weapon system of the aircraft have been revamped for effective mission superiority. Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS) has been fully integrated in Tejas and R73E missile firing has been successfully demonstrated using HMDS.

Multi Mode Weapon multirole capability of Tejas was demonstrated during its participation in Iron Fist. Air to Ground mission and Air to Air missions were demonstrated by dropping Laser Guided Bombs and R73E firing in single pass. Laser Guided Bomb firing has been achieved for IOC-2 to user’s satisfaction.

Aircraft readiness for missions in terms of its readiness and Operational Readiness Platform (ORP) and Turn Round Service (TRS) and easier maintainability has been achieved as per requirement thus enhancing operational readiness of the aircraft. Tejas has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.

IOC-2 shall enable Air Force to carry out air superiority and offensive air support missions, forward air field operations, all weather multi role operations, Electronic counter measures and night flying operations.
*LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.*
Press Information Bureau English Releases

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## raazh

GORKHALI said:


> Don't count me in your club mate.I know IAF more than you do.*Bookmarked it*


Don't know what club ur talking about but apparently it seems you are not in the IAF club .. all I quoted is what IAF senior officials said and its all in black in white ..


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## GORKHALI

raazh said:


> Don't know what club ur talking about but apparently it seems you are not in the IAF club .. all I quoted is what IAF senior officials said and its all in black in white ..


I know what am talking ,because I know Inside out of IAF  and I shown the official news letter released in PIB. Its just a Misquote or IAF personal is misinformed.


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## rockstarIN

raazh said:


> Don't know what club ur talking about but apparently it seems you are not in the IAF club .. all I quoted is what IAF senior officials said and its all in black in white ..





raazh said:


> Don't know what club ur talking about but apparently it seems you are not in the IAF club .. all I quoted is what IAF senior officials said and its all in black in white ..


All those combat radious vary based upon mission and load too. It won't cross 50 km if it had it dog fight for quite long time near the base at sea level.


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## amitkriit

raazh said:


> It is not my observation. Its being reported via senior Indian Air Force officials. It could have been a out of context quote had the officials said that its range is not sufficient for what ever mission they have in mind; But when they give you an exact figure 200KM and complain that they need around 1000KM then this should not just be considered as a slip of tongue or lack of information.
> 
> @GORKHALI You and I can be misinformed; but if you say that senior IAF official, who have spent all their service in the force and have reached a decision making post is misinformed then that actually raises more serious concerns on the Force itself.
> 
> @spectribution Please see the statement again. IAF officials are not complaining about the lack of quantity (by the way even that is more than what PAF fields). They are complaining about loss of conventional edge. This obviously include all the fighter types in your inventory. So my question is that the ppl who fly the planes and train day and night with them are not confident enough to face a F16B52 ??



We know everything about the *Arjun Tank* Saga. Few Top ranked officers have their own axe to grind.


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## greatone

Saab Partnership could have Helped Tejas Mk-2 | idrw.org






With the Tejas Mk2 developed, we would have caught up with Sweden in sophistication of aeronautical industry and can look forward to catching up with others.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

greatone said:


> Saab Partnership could have Helped Tejas Mk-2 | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the Tejas Mk2 developed, we would have caught up with Sweden in sophistication of aeronautical industry and can look forward to catching up with others.


No way would SAAB have helped develop a fighter that could potentially compete with their Gripen on the export market (which is competitive enough as is). 

Additionally a Gripen win in the MMRCA program would have killed off the LCA project for good. 



Yet more hot air from the IDRW chaps...

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## greatone

Abingdonboy said:


> No way would SAAB have helped develop a fighter that could potentially compete with their Gripen on the export market (which is competitive enough as is).
> 
> Additionally a Gripen win in the MMRCA program would have killed off the LCA project for good.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet more hot air from the IDRW chaps...



You are misinterpreting.Nowhere it is mentioned in the article that not partnering with Saab was a bad idea.
I am merely giving my opinion that India will catch up with Swedish aeronautical industry by the time Tejas Mk 2 gets FOC which is huge achievement.


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## he-man

Dosen't matter if we partner them or not,,,majority of the stuff on this bird is imported only.
Thats the area to focus but sadly no one gives a damn


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Dosen't matter if we partner them or not,,,majority of the stuff on this bird is imported only.
> Thats the area to focus but sadly no one gives a damn



Depends on where the priority is. If you want to brag about indigenous techs, you don't give a dams, but if you want LCA as a project to be successful, you do, because we need help in certain areas were we messed up. That's why an LCA with foreign techs and partners, but good performance, is clearly preferable over an LCA that is highly delayed and with medicore performance at max, but 100% indigenous techs.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Depends on where the priority is. If you want to brag about indigenous techs, you don't give a dams, but if you want LCA as a project to be successful, you do, because we need help in certain areas were we messed up. That's why an LCA with foreign techs and partners, but good performance, is clearly preferable over an LCA that is highly delayed and with medicore performance at max, but 100% indigenous techs.



the problem is even after importing half the stuff we are nowhere on lca even now.
i think thats worrying,,,we cannot even assemble stuff properly


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## sancho

he-man said:


> the problem is even after importing half the stuff we are nowhere on lca even now.
> i think thats worrying,,,we cannot even assemble stuff properly



Wrong again, because we have no issue with the imported parts (HMS, LDP...), but with the parts that we did on our own (design, radar, engine...).


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Wrong again, because we have no issue with the imported parts (HMS, LDP...), but with the parts that we did on our own (design, radar, engine...).



lol,,,means the same thing

drdo/hal incompetncy,one way or the other


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## sancho

he-man said:


> lol,,,means the same thing



Not really.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Not really.



whatever makes u happy man


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## sancho

he-man said:


> whatever makes u happy man



Less baseless claims ("we cannot even assemble stuff properly"), more facts, that would make me happy!


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Less baseless claims ("we cannot even assemble stuff properly"), more facts, that would make me happy!



u refuse to see the facts,,,i am not to be blamed for that dude.
if we could assemble stuff properly,,,everything would be fine.

sadly its not that easy,it seems


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## sancho

he-man said:


> u refuse to see the facts,,,i am not to be blamed for that dude.
> if we could assemble stuff properly,,,everything would be fine.



 Again, all foreign parts that we use are fully integrated and are working fine, starting from the Israeli HMS and LDP, the Russian missiles or the US engine.
The problem is our own development side, where we have clear problems and a lack of know how in aircraft design (visible also in Saras, Sitara or some helicopter projects), radar or engine developments. That's exactly why we have de-linked Kaveri from the project, why it is likely that the MK1 also will use a foreign radar and not the indigenous one and why it would be better for LCA MK2 to not do the same mistake again to "hope" for an indigenous AESA development. We have to get the fighter projects done in both versions and taking proven and available foreign parts off the shelf, will reduce the risk of delays or failure.

So you must be blamed about the nonsense you talk about the first part, even if you might agree on the second.


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## air marshal

*India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays*
*
India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays | Defense News | defensenews.com*


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

air marshal said:


> *India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays
> India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays | Defense News | defensenews.com*



lifafa journalism.


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## ejaz007

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> lifafa journalism.



Care to explain how lifafa journalism.


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## Bilal9

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> lifafa journalism.



In spite of my hate for things Indian - I am sad to see a promising project like the LCA come to this state of affairs. It means that just idealism and engineering excellence cannot win all the time - there is a much bigger force at play here. The LCA was a worthy contender to the Gripen in every manner yet two decades went by with hardly any progress or induction.

I am sure Indian politicians (and their corrupt journalist friends) did their best to kill the project and line their pockets with proceeds from the Rafale purchase. LCA Mark I is now two decades late and Mark II has no traction either. I could be wrong but a bigger number of Rafales are probably in the offing anyway.

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## Bilal9

Prof. Prodyut Das: The Ails of the LCA

My apologies if this was posted already.


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## gslv mk3

Bilal9 said:


> The LCA was a worthy contender to the Gripen in every manner yet *two decades went by with hardly any progress or induction*.





Bilal9 said:


> LCA Mark I is now* two decades late* and Mark II has no traction either.



Ah,seriously ?

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## Bilal9

gslv mk3 said:


> Ah,seriously ?



Please read the contents of the link posted in #9601.


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## gslv mk3

Bilal9 said:


> Please read the contents of the link posted in #9601.



2 decades late ? When full scale funding was approved only back in 1994?


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## he-man

I am not happy with how HAL is handling this project but thats how things work here.
Its not only HAL thats to blame

1)Funding is meagre compared to other countries
2)Salaries of scientists is too less,many good ones leave for greener pastures and they indeed should,,,its not a free service
3)Airforce too is behaving in a funny way despite knowing well that we are not a super rich nation with 200 billion$ budget.

4)But then HAL is a moribund govt psu too so it has to share some blame


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## Black Widow

gslv mk3 said:


> 2 decades late ? When full scale funding was approved only back in 1994?





LCA development Time:

Trolls: 2011(IOC) - 1969 (Indian government accepted the recommendation by its Aeronautics Committee that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should design and develop an advanced technology fighter aircraft around a proven engine
) = 42 years

Sane ppl: 2011(IOC) - 1993 (Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.) = 18 Years 

1969
Indian government accepted the recommendation by its Aeronautics Committee that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should design and develop an advanced technology fighter aircraft around a proven engine
1975
HAL completed design studies in 1975, but the project fell through due to inability to procure the selected "proven engine" from a foreign manufacturer and unfulfilled IAF requirements.
1980s
1983
DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft
1984
Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in 1984 as the nodal agency for managing and developing the LCA.
1985
IAF submits Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985. This was initiated by the then Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif.
1986
Government allocates 575 crores for the LCA programme.
Programme to develop an indigenous powerplant (engine) was launched at GTRE.
1987
Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.
1988
Project definition completed in September 1988.
1989
Government review committee expresses confidence in LCA programme. It was decided that the programme will be carried out in two phases.
1990
Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.
1993
*Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.*
1995
First technology demonstrator, TD-1, rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998. However, technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies plagued the prototypes and they remained grounded.
1997
Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) for LCA design work started at HAL’s Hyderabad division and the LRDE.
2000s
2001
4 May - LCA’s maiden flight successfully completed by Technology Demonstrator TD-1, on 2001. Prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee renames LCA as Tejas.
Development assistance sought from Snecma on the Kaveri engine.[1]
2002
6 June - TD-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
MMR system was reported to be not working as per the criteria laid down in requirements.
2003
25 November - PV-1 makes a successful maiden flight.
2005
1 December - PV-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
2006
13 May - The PV-2 went supersonic for the first time
14 May - The PV-2 went supersonic again, but this time in a weaponised state (i.e., carrying weapons such as missiles and an internal gun).
1 December - The PV-3 flew for the first time for 27 minutes at an altitude of 2.5 km and at a speed of Mach 0.8. The PV-3 was equipped with a more advanced pilot interface, refined avionics and higher control law capabilities compared with the previous versions.
2007


Tejas PV-1 firing an R-73 missile during weapons trials in Goa
25 April - The first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
PV-2 and PV-3 underwent sea-level trials at INS Rajali Naval Air Station, Arakkonam to study the effects of flying at sea-level, as all earlier trials have been conducted at Bangalore which is 3,000 feet (910 m) above sea-level.[2][3] The reliability of the LCA systems under the hot and humid conditions, as well as low level flight characteristics was tested.[4][5] It is due to this intense flight testing schedule that the LCA was not able to fly at the Paris air show-2007, as was originally planned.[6]
7 September - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful maiden flight with two 800 litre drop tanks.[7][8]
25 October - Tejas PV-1 fired a Vympel R-73 missile for first time. The trials were conducted off the Goa coast at INS Hansa Naval Air Station.[9]
11 December - LITENING targeting pod was successfully tested on Tejas PV-2.[10]
2008


HAL Tejas high-altitude trials at Leh successfully completed by December 2008.
7 February - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful flight powered by fuel from two 800 litre drop tanks. It made a one hour and 24 minute long sortie. On internal fuel LCA can perform a 40-minute sortie.[11]
April - First Flight with HMDS[12]
LCA Tejas prototypes PV-2 & PV-3 underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station, Nagpur from 28 May 2008 to 4 June 2008. The trials were declared successful.
16 June - Tejas second Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-2) made its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
7 November - LCA Prototype Vehicle-3 made first successful night flight.[13]
13 December - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed the high altitude trials at the Leh air base.[14]
2009
22 January - Tejas completed 1000 flights.[15]
February - the live bombs test were successfully carried out.[16]
October - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed visual target elimination and air-to-ground weapons delivery trials.[17]
26 November - Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas(PV-5) made its maiden flight on 26 Nov 09.[18]
7 December - Tejas passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet (270 m). Tejas recorded a speed over 1350 km/h. These tests were conducted at INS Hansa, Goa.[19]
15 December - Indian government sanctioned Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.[20]
2010s
2010
23 April - LCA Tejas LSP-3 Makes Maiden Flight. LSP-3 is almost the final configuration including the new air-data computers, Hybrid Multi Mode Radar, new communication and navigation equipment and radar warning receiver. With this the LCA programme has completed 1350 test flights logging about 800 flying hours.[21]
2 June - LCA Tejas LSP-4 Makes Maiden Flight. The flight marks the first time for a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.[22] In addition to the Hybrid MMR, the aircraft also flew with a functioning Countermeasure Dispensing System [23]


Tejas Trainer at 62nd Republic Day of India Parade, New Delhi
19 November - LCA Tejas LSP-5 Makes Maiden Flight. Goes supersonic in first flight.
2011
*10 January - Certification for the Release to Services with assured safety and specified performance for IOC.*[25]
26 January - LCA Tejas participates in the 26 January Republic Day Celebrations by being paraded at New Delhi.
September - LCA Tejas undergoes bombing runs at Pokhran Test Range.
2012
9 March - LCA Tejas LSP-7 Makes Maiden Flight[26]
27 April - 1st Naval LCA prototype NP-1 makes maiden flight.[27]
27 June - HAL Tejas (LSP 2, 3 and 5) completed precision bombing runs in the desert of Rajasthan, for the second time.[28]
2013
31 March 2013 - LSP 8 had a successful maiden test flight at Bangalore.[29]
28 Sep 2013 - The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas successfully completed the maiden engine relight test on Friday—a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC-2). The Limited Series Production (LSP-7) aircraft from the Tejas flight-line, piloted by Gp Capt R R Tyagi, underwent the engine relight test at 1 pm. The LSP-7 was chased by a Hawk aircraft.[30]
20 December 2013 - LCA successfully achieves IOC-2.
2014
28 May 2014 - LSPs 3, 5 and 7 successfully complete advanced weapons trials.[31]
References

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## he-man

Stop defending lca here,,,i will be hapy only when i hear the news of foc...........and i have been waiting for that since a very very long time.

We need these birds to throw out the useless junk mig-21 out,,,just do it a bit fast HAL,will u


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## sms

he-man said:


> I am not happy with how HAL is handling this project but thats how things work here.
> Its not only HAL thats to blame
> 
> 1)Funding is meagre compared to other countries
> 2)Salaries of scientists is too less,many good ones leave for greener pastures and they indeed should,,,its not a free service
> 3)Airforce too is behaving in a funny way despite knowing well that we are not a super rich nation with 200 billion$ budget.
> 
> 4)But then HAL is a moribund govt psu too so it has to share some blame



Bro you got this all wrong!
HAL is a contracted manufacturer for an aircraft designed by ADA. This a product (in layman's term) who's design is yet to be finalize or get final go ahead from design agency.

How is it HAL's fault? Please care to explain?

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## he-man

sms said:


> Bro you got this all wrong!
> HAL is a contracted manufacturer for an aircraft designed by ADA. This a product (in layman's term) who's design is yet to be finalize or get final go ahead from design agency.
> 
> How is it HAL's fault? Please care to explain?



Hal is the chief integrator or builder.
Even drdo is at fault as many of our indigenous systems have not performed as was envisaged.

Yes design faults are there like small ducts but we have no idea what other problems are,,,i mean there is a reason for delay and for a while,,,at least last 10-12 years money has beenno problem.

We can import whatever systems we like,,,still its not getting foc??


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## kaykay

Bilal9 said:


> In spite of my hate for things Indian - I am sad to see a promising project like the LCA come to this state of affairs. It means that just idealism and engineering excellence cannot win all the time - there is a much bigger force at play here. The LCA was a worthy contender to the Gripen in every manner yet two decades went by with hardly any progress or induction.
> 
> I am sure Indian politicians (and their corrupt journalist friends) did their best to kill the project and line their pockets with proceeds from the Rafale purchase. LCA Mark I is now two decades late and Mark II has no traction either. I could be wrong but a bigger number of Rafales are probably in the offing anyway.


Rafale procurement has little to do with LCA project. even if we induct 500 tejas still we would need rafale.


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## gslv mk3

he-man said:


> Yes design faults are there like small ducts but we have no idea what other problems are,,,



Bro,You need what these are for ?


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## he-man

kaykay said:


> Rafale procurement has little to do with LCA project. even if we induct 500 tejas still we would need rafale.



Not to forget that mk1 will be only for training purposes mainly,,the forces are mainly waiting for the mk2.
Rafale will be better than even mki by a long shot due to superior stealth,,radar,,irst,,jammer,,tv camera.

U name it and its better in that,,,except range



gslv mk3 said:


> Bro,You need what these are for ?



I am stating the truth yaar,,,,they have been doing trials for a long long time now but some new problem comes here and there.
It has been reported that air ducts of tejas are a bit smaller than they should be,,,they have already been designed larger taking into account the bigger f-414 engine in mk2.

Then i am not happy with the el/m 2032 radar in it,,we should have got an aesa or at least a pesa,,,it makes a huge difference.
I know israel refused under usa pressure but we could have sourced it from italian vixen

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## gslv mk3

he-man said:


> I am stating the truth yaar,,,,they have been doing trials for a long long time now but some new problem comes here and there.
> *It has been reported that air ducts of tejas are a bit smaller *than they should be,



Links ?


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## he-man

gslv mk3 said:


> Links ?



Don't remember,,think i read it somewhere.
Thats not the point anyways,,,the point is there are some problems which we don't know yet and due to those tejas is still in the testing phase.

What those problems really are,,,we may never know


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## sms

he-man said:


> Hal is the chief integrator or builder.
> Even drdo is at fault as many of our indigenous systems have not performed as was envisaged.
> 
> Yes design faults are there like small ducts but we have no idea what other problems are,,,i mean there is a reason for delay and for a while,,,at least last 10-12 years money has beenno problem.
> 
> We can import whatever systems we like,,,still its not getting foc??



HAL is cheif integrator or builder. It could be potentially outsourced to Boeing or any other Aircraft builder. But their contribution to the project was limited assembling it. What if the designer do not know what, where and when is required to put in to aircraft to fly how could HAL start assembly. 

The project management owned by ADA they MUST stand up and take blame. They had prepare a project which had 100% guarantee to fail. If they were wise they could have had three independent and parallel project e.g. Tajes with readily available sub systems in mkt. engine and Radar. 

Once Tajes start flying and accepted to Air force they could integrate indigenous engine, radar (after they met requirements) to it. 

But they did opposite ... came up with dream project with no or very low level of knowledge, experience, no existent industrial base with Zero say of expert (HAL).


It's not HAL's fault. They are manufacturing based on a design and BOM selected by ADA. We must blame them if they could not deliver as per agreed schedule. So far they are on target!!

@sancho I'm no expert in this field please correct me if I'm wrong


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## he-man

sms said:


> HAL is cheif integrator or builder. It could be potentially outsourced to Boeing or any other Aircraft builder. But their contribution to the project was limited assembling it. What if the designer do not know what, where and when is required to put in to aircraft to fly how could HAL start assembly.
> 
> The project management owned by ADA they MUST stand up and take blame. They had prepare a project which had 100% guarantee to fail. If they were wise they could have had three independent and parallel project e.g. Tajes with readily available sub systems in mkt. engine and Radar.
> 
> Once Tajes start flying and accepted to Air force they could integrate indigenous engine, radar (after they met requirements) to it.
> 
> But they did opposite ... came up with dream project with no or very low level of knowledge, experience, no existent industrial base with Zero say of expert (HAL).
> 
> 
> It's not HAL's fault. They are manufacturing based on a design and BOM selected by ADA. We must blame them if they could not deliver as per agreed schedule. So far they are on target!!
> 
> @sancho I'm no expert in this field please correct me if I'm wrong



Whatever man,,,my point is public companies.
Do u know that kaveri was designed as a variable cycle engine??

What stupid organization tries to make a vce on first fucking attempt??
Who can defend such stupidity?


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## sms

he-man said:


> Whatever man,,,my point is public companies.
> Do u know that kaveri was designed as a variable cycle engine??
> 
> What stupid organization tries to make a vce on first fucking attempt??
> Who can defend such stupidity?



I agree if you say Public companies in General are under performers!!

It's not competency but the attitude and overall environment, we need to blame. Remember same person in different condition can produce different results!


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## he-man

sms said:


> I agree if you say Public companies in General are under performers!!
> 
> It's not competency but the attitude and overall environment, we need to blame. Remember same person in different condition can produce different results!



Sure man,,i am not saying they are bad,,,with fixed salary and no pressure who wants to work really??
no one,,thats the human nature

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## trident2010

If Tejas were to send to battlefield today, will it be better/equal in performance to Mig-21Bis?


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## he-man

trident2010 said:


> If Tejas were to send to battlefield today, will it be better/equal in performance to Mig-21Bis?



no idea,,,but they haven't given foc yet


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## Black Widow

sms said:


> HAL is cheif integrator or builder. It could be potentially outsourced to Boeing or any other Aircraft builder. But their contribution to the project was limited assembling it. What if the designer do not know what, where and when is required to put in to aircraft to fly how could HAL start assembly.
> 
> The project management owned by ADA they MUST stand up and take blame. They had prepare a project which had 100% guarantee to fail. If they were wise they could have had three independent and parallel project e.g. Tajes with readily available sub systems in mkt. engine and Radar.
> 
> Once Tajes start flying and accepted to Air force they could integrate indigenous engine, radar (after they met requirements) to it.
> 
> But they did opposite ... came up with dream project with no or very low level of knowledge, experience, no existent industrial base with Zero say of expert (HAL).
> 
> 
> It's not HAL's fault. They are manufacturing based on a design and BOM selected by ADA. We must blame them if they could not deliver as per agreed schedule. So far they are on target!!
> 
> @sancho I'm no expert in this field please correct me if I'm wrong




My dear frnd Sancho is not an expert.. He is Certified LCA troll..  No offence Sancho brother... 

Here is my story:
The Story of Marut: It was first Jet India made. It was good plane but failed because it was underpowered. India went to every one begging for engine, no one gave it to India. So India thought we will go and build fighter aircraft with engine. In 1969 condition was different and not everyone was ready to share knowledge or Engine.

After LCA program started there were 2 major speedbumps 
a) After Pokhran-II, LCA PV1 was parked in my garage for many years.
b) Mulla-yam Singh tried to close LCA program on the request of Dallals.. 
Some minor hickups were also there
a) Dallals tried to stop LCA project as well

The ADA role can not be undermined. There was a ego clash between ADA and HAL, which made this thing worse. ADA mismanagement was also responsible. IAF attitude (and corrupt nexus) is also contributed to it.

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## sms

Black Widow said:


> My dear frnd Sancho is not an expert.. He is Certified LCA troll..  No offence Sancho brother...
> 
> Here is my story:
> The Story of Marut: It was first Jet India made. It was good plane but failed because it was underpowered. India went to every one begging for engine, no one gave it to India. So India thought we will go and build fighter aircraft with engine. In 1969 condition was different and not everyone was ready to share knowledge or Engine.
> 
> After LCA program started there were 2 major speedbumps
> a) After Pokhran-II, LCA PV1 was parked in my garage for many years.
> b) Mulla-yam Singh tried to close LCA program on the request of Dallals..
> Some minor hickups were also there
> a) Dallals tried to stop LCA project as well
> 
> The ADA role can not be undermined. There was a ego clash between ADA and HAL, which made this thing worse. ADA mismanagement was also responsible. IAF attitude (and corrupt nexus) is also contributed to it.



Pretty much in line with my assessment of situation. 
But ADA is the prime agency failed on project management and PR (communication).

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## sathya

Tejas MK-1 to miss FOC deadline , Why we are not Surprised ? | idrw.org


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## Superboy

sathya said:


> Tejas MK-1 to miss FOC deadline , Why we are not Surprised ? | idrw.org




Meh. Tejas doesn't even have DSI like JF-17 does. It's not like Tejas is priority for the IAF. That in my opinion is Rafale from France. 

Not a single serial production Tejas has ever rolled off the assembly lines. The first squadron likely won't be raised until 2018 at the earliest.


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## NKVD

Superboy said:


> Meh. Tejas doesn't even have DSI like JF-17 does. It's not like Tejas is priority for the IAF. That in my opinion is Rafale from France.
> 
> Not a single serial production Tejas has ever rolled off the assembly lines. The first squadron likely won't be raised until 2018 at the earliest.


Because anything with DSI sucks

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## Kaalapani

Superboy said:


> Meh. Tejas doesn't even have DSI like JF-17 does. It's not like Tejas is priority for the IAF. That in my opinion is Rafale from France.
> 
> Not a single serial production Tejas has ever rolled off the assembly lines. The first squadron likely won't be raised until 2018 at the earliest.




Good observation.


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## The Huskar

Superboy said:


> Meh. Tejas doesn't even have DSI like JF-17 does. It's not like Tejas is priority for the IAF. That in my opinion is Rafale from France.
> 
> Not a single serial production Tejas has ever rolled off the assembly lines. The first squadron likely won't be raised until 2018 at the earliest.


 dude seriously.u have been on going on about DSI for a really long time.it is a medium level technology.it doesn't render jf17 invisible

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## Superboy

The Huskar said:


> dude seriously.u have been on going on about DSI for a really long time.it is a medium level technology.it doesn't render jf17 invisible




DSI is the thing man. Other than JF-17, no other operational fighter jet in the world has DSI. Man!


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## Indus Falcon

*India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays*
_Jul. 20, 2014 -By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI _


*




*
_India's Light Combat Aircraft is expected to miss its 2014 deadline for final operational clearance. (AFP)_
*

NEW DELHI*— India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1, already 20 years late, likely will miss its final operational clearance (FOC) deadline set for the end of 2014, an Indian Air Force source said.

In the run-up to the FOC stage, handling tests are being performed on only one aircraft while the remaining five are still in production. Ideally, handling flight tests should be performed on at least six aircraft to ascertain their operational readiness, the source said.

“With handling tests on only one aircraft, and the remaining not even manufactured, it is impossible to get FOC by December’s end,” the source said.

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for LCA Mark-1 was received in December. Now the aircraft must demonstrate full performance as defined by the design and agreement of the Indian Air Force.

In addition, the aircraft will integrate missiles and must have the capability for midair refueling. The LCA undergoing testing has still not been modified to allow air-to-air refueling and is unlikely to have that capability by the end of 2014, the source added.

No official from LCA producer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) was available for comment or responded to questions submitted by Defense News. The Air Force ordered 40 LCAs from HAL.

The LCA’s project cost has ballooned from about $90 million in 1983, when the project was conceived, to more than $4 billion. The aircraft is unlikely to be ready for operational deployment before 2016, the source said; the latest projected date had been 2014.

LCA has been developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, a laboratory under the government’s Defence Research and Development Organisation.

An Air Force official said the Ministry of Defence promised the aircraft will be ready for combat missions from 2015 after receiving the FOC.

“We are keeping our fingers crossed for that day,” the official said.

Development delays forced the Air Force to hunt for a fighter aircraft. The process is still underway to procure 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) at a cost of more than $12 billion. French company Dassault’s Rafale is the preferred vendor.

The LCA was due to replace aging Russian MiG-21 fighters.

“With the MMRCA already in procurement stage for over seven years, and the wait for the LCA Mark-1 getting longer, the combat worthiness of the Air Force has been severely affected, for which the Ministry of Defence should fix responsibility,” said Bhim Singh, retired Air Force wing commander. “With the ongoing resource crunch and the new government committing a meager hike of 2.3 percent over the proposals made by the outgoing government in defense spending for the current financial year, it is unlikely the MMRCA will be inked this year.”

The fate of the LCA Mark-2, which would eventually meet the Air Force requirement for heavier payloads, is unknown as the MoD has not yet signed a deal to buy GE-414 engines from the US. The Air Force selected GE-414 over the Eurojet EJ 200 engine in 2011.

The service said it chose the GE-414 for LCA Mark-2 because of its higher thrust over the GE-4014 engine powering the Mark-1.

The Mark-2 will have additional features, including a new flight control computer; upgraded avionics; retractable in-flight refueling; on-board oxygen generation; an active electronically scanned array radar; new electronic warfare suite; and the ability to reach supersonic speed in level flight.

The Mark-2 was expected to be ready for flight tests by 2018, but the Air Force source said that because no significant work has begun on the aircraft, the 2018 deadline will be missed as well.

“The Indian Air Force has a requirement of over 200 LCA Mark-1 and Mark-2 aircraft, but with delays looking imminent and the procurement process of MMRCA getting longer, the Indian Air Force could take a major hit on its fleet strength in the years ahead,” Singh said.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-Delays?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

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## sms

Superboy said:


> Meh. Tejas doesn't even have DSI like JF-17 does. It's not like Tejas is priority for the IAF. That in my opinion is Rafale from France.
> 
> Not a single serial production Tejas has ever rolled off the assembly lines. The first squadron likely won't be raised until 2018 at the earliest.



LOL, there is nothing hi tech about DSI but it's a alternate method to save cost and remove moving parts. It does not make it super maneuverable, invisible or space age jet.

Go back on late 50s and early 60s you may find some examples for DSI


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## sathya

Now , sp1 of LCA undergoing ground trials

Will take to skies sooner I guess in... July/august


GE 414 INS6 engine contract was signed and expected delivery in 2014 as far as I know..
Anyone knows better kindly update us..


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## indiatester

sathya said:


> Now , sp1 of LCA undergoing ground trials
> 
> Will take to skies sooner I guess in... July/august
> 
> 
> GE 414 INS6 engine contract was signed and expected delivery in 2014 as far as I know..
> Anyone knows better kindly update us..


Do they have any viewing tickets for us enthusiasts to come a watch these things closer?
Please... pretty please


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## spectribution

Indus Falcon said:


> *India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays*
> _Jul. 20, 2014 -By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI _
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _India's Light Combat Aircraft is expected to miss its 2014 deadline for final operational clearance. (AFP)_
> *NEW DELHI*— India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1, already 20 years late, likely will miss its final operational clearance (FOC) deadline set for the end of 2014, an Indian Air Force source said.
> 
> In the run-up to the FOC stage, handling tests are being performed on only one aircraft while the remaining five are still in production. Ideally, handling flight tests should be performed on at least six aircraft to ascertain their operational readiness, the source said.
> 
> “With handling tests on only one aircraft, and the remaining not even manufactured, it is impossible to get FOC by December’s end,” the source said.
> 
> The initial operational clearance (IOC) for LCA Mark-1 was received in December. Now the aircraft must demonstrate full performance as defined by the design and agreement of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> In addition, the aircraft will integrate missiles and must have the capability for midair refueling. The LCA undergoing testing has still not been modified to allow air-to-air refueling and is unlikely to have that capability by the end of 2014, the source added.
> 
> No official from LCA producer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) was available for comment or responded to questions submitted by Defense News. The Air Force ordered 40 LCAs from HAL.
> 
> The LCA’s project cost has ballooned from about $90 million in 1983, when the project was conceived, to more than $4 billion. The aircraft is unlikely to be ready for operational deployment before 2016, the source said; the latest projected date had been 2014.
> 
> LCA has been developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, a laboratory under the government’s Defence Research and Development Organisation.
> 
> An Air Force official said the Ministry of Defence promised the aircraft will be ready for combat missions from 2015 after receiving the FOC.
> 
> “We are keeping our fingers crossed for that day,” the official said.
> 
> Development delays forced the Air Force to hunt for a fighter aircraft. The process is still underway to procure 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) at a cost of more than $12 billion. French company Dassault’s Rafale is the preferred vendor.
> 
> The LCA was due to replace aging Russian MiG-21 fighters.
> 
> “With the MMRCA already in procurement stage for over seven years, and the wait for the LCA Mark-1 getting longer, the combat worthiness of the Air Force has been severely affected, for which the Ministry of Defence should fix responsibility,” said Bhim Singh, retired Air Force wing commander. “With the ongoing resource crunch and the new government committing a meager hike of 2.3 percent over the proposals made by the outgoing government in defense spending for the current financial year, it is unlikely the MMRCA will be inked this year.”
> 
> The fate of the LCA Mark-2, which would eventually meet the Air Force requirement for heavier payloads, is unknown as the MoD has not yet signed a deal to buy GE-414 engines from the US. The Air Force selected GE-414 over the Eurojet EJ 200 engine in 2011.
> 
> The service said it chose the GE-414 for LCA Mark-2 because of its higher thrust over the GE-4014 engine powering the Mark-1.
> 
> The Mark-2 will have additional features, including a new flight control computer; upgraded avionics; retractable in-flight refueling; on-board oxygen generation; an active electronically scanned array radar; new electronic warfare suite; and the ability to reach supersonic speed in level flight.
> 
> The Mark-2 was expected to be ready for flight tests by 2018, but the Air Force source said that because no significant work has begun on the aircraft, the 2018 deadline will be missed as well.
> 
> “The Indian Air Force has a requirement of over 200 LCA Mark-1 and Mark-2 aircraft, but with delays looking imminent and the procurement process of MMRCA getting longer, the Indian Air Force could take a major hit on its fleet strength in the years ahead,” Singh said.
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-Delays?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p



BS : HAL Tejas was meant to get FOC by 2014 end or early 2015 i.e 15 months after FOC II. It will get it as the number of issues to be sorted are less now.

Regarding other 5 aircraft under production :

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## notsuperstitious

Whats with this superboy and DSI on all kinds of threads? Since his intellect is capable of processing only three alphabets at a time, its time he deleted DSI and looked for another set.

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491832892280958977


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## sathya

That's excluding Navy plans isn't it..?


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## nik22

sathya said:


> That's excluding Navy plans isn't it..?


That is just IAF. But it mention variants, so mk2 included


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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> That's excluding Navy plans isn't it..?


IN orders are separate.


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> IN orders are separate.



Oh,,,man
Looks like well.................modi effect.

To be frank here though where is the money gonna come from for amca??
I mean lca mk1+2
pakfa
rafale
amca

Seems rather presumptious don't u think??
First we must focus on developing lca mk2,,,then only amca should come into the picture


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## nik22

he-man said:


> Oh,,,man
> Looks like well.................modi effect.
> 
> To be frank here though where is the money gonna come from for amca??
> I mean lca mk1+2
> pakfa
> rafale
> amca
> 
> Seems rather presumptious don't u think??
> First we must focus on developing lca mk2,,,then only amca should come into the picture


DRDO budget is increased this year. Rafale and pakfa would be separate. But I think DRDO can manage some fund on their own for AMCA. There is already money for LCA from IAF and IN


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## he-man

nik22 said:


> DRDO budget is increased this year. Rafale and pakfa would be separate. But I think DRDO can manage some fund on their own for AMCA. There is already money for LCA from IAF and IN



Problem is AMCA is a stealth plane,,they need to allocate way more than they did for lca.
It will have its own set of problems like more weight due to 2 engines,,,s-ducts,internal weapon bays.

So i am not sure whether its a good plan or not to try and make 3-4 planes all together


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> Problem is AMCA is a stealth plane,,they need to allocate way more than they did for lca.
> It will have its own set of problems like more weight due to 2 engines,,,s-ducts,internal weapon bays.
> 
> So i am not sure whether its a good plan or not to try and make 3-4 planes all together



Parallel development should only be attempted when you have enough competent teams. I'd prefer the planners put the best resources on LCA and may be a small investigation team for the tough ones.
But then again you have too many people not doing anything... you must as well put them on everything but the critical ones.

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## he-man

indiatester said:


> Parallel development should only be attempted when you have enough competent teams. I'd prefer the planners put the best resources on LCA and may be a small investigation team for the tough ones.
> But then again you have too many people not doing anything... you must as well put them on everything but the critical ones.



Thats my fear.
They should have tried to develop radar,irst etc for the mk2 rather than going for amca at the same time.
Guess some people never learn

Not even usa can attempt to pull out all these different projects at the same time

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## sathya

Once the airframe designers finished with Lca , naturally they would want to move up..
People who design radar an irst would be different .. 
So we cannot make airframe designers to wait.. Instead we should buy off the shelf radars and all till they catch up..

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## he-man

sathya said:


> Once the airframe designers finished with Lca , naturally they would want to move up..
> People who design radar an irst would be different ..
> So we cannot make airframe designers to wait.. Instead we should buy off the shelf radars and all till they catch up..



Wrong strategy,,,very very wrong.
making the electronics in the plane is the hardest part,,,,,we need to catch up in that area first.

Also we are getting rafale and pakfa so whats the hurry on amca??
They should just focus on mk2

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## sathya

Now what shall we do with aeronautical engineers who design airframes?
Force them to do *major* corrections in mk2 ? And repeat whole testing again
4 the generation is on its way out.. Why spend time there instead experimenting on AMCA at least will advance us in future..

Btw we can concentrate back on LCA in future upgrades when electronics matures..

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## he-man

sathya said:


> Now what shall we do with aeronautical engineers who design airframes?
> Force them to do *major* corrections in mk2 ? And repeat whole testing again
> 4 the generation is on its way out.. Why spend time there instead experimenting on AMCA at least will advance us in future..
> 
> Btw we can concentrate back on LCA in future upgrades when electronics matures..



Again u are missing the point.

Have they even made 1 frame for mk2 yet??no
Has lca mk1 got foc yet??no

So why the hell are we rushing to amca when we haven't even started producing the mk1 in final configuratiion yet??
You want us to continue the same mistakes we have been doing in past 10 years?


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## sathya

I don't think LCA mk 1 airframe will get any changes ...since 20 IOC standard already frozen and only 20 Foc standard needs to be produced..

Unless significant IOC standard LCA flies and gives feedback about shortcomings and improvements needed ... Foc standard cannot be frozen .. Which means either Foc not going happen any time soon or airframe has already satisfied to an extent...

We need to concentrate on LCA mk 2 .. *Agreed*..
From the rush to AMCA design , I presume design changes for mk 2 is either completed or on the verge of it..
They need to built it ..
GE F414 engine is supposed to be delivered this year.. Considering both and need for a year to build a prototype,I am assuming 2016 will be the year mk 2 flies..

However I am not sure when Foc going to happen for mk1.. 
*Any expert view on this* ? Does mk 2 designing need mk1 to attain FOC ? 
Can't we skip miles stones?

Two things can be a guide to the judgement of timeline 
1. FOC of mk 1 
2. Engine delivery for mk 2.

These two will be known to the world ...


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## he-man

sathya said:


> I don't think LCA mk 1 airframe will get any changes ...since 20 IOC standard already frozen and only 20 Foc standard needs to be produced..
> 
> Unless significant IOC standard LCA flies and gives feedback about shortcomings and improvements needed ... Foc standard cannot be frozen .. Which means either Foc not going happen any time soon or airframe has already satisfied to an extent...
> 
> We need to concentrate on LCA mk 2 .. *Agreed*..
> From the rush to AMCA design , I presume design changes for mk 2 is either completed or on the verge of it..
> They need to built it ..
> GE F414 engine is supposed to be delivered this year.. Considering both and need for a year to build a prototype,I am assuming 2016 will be the year mk 2 flies..
> 
> However I am not sure when Foc going to happen for mk1..
> *Any expert view on this* ? Does mk 2 designing need mk1 to attain FOC ?
> Can't we skip miles stones?
> 
> Two things can be a guide to the judgement of timeline
> 1. FOC of mk 1
> 2. Engine delivery for mk 2.
> 
> These two will be known to the world ...




Would u even believe what the HAL says now??
I won't for one


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## sudhir007

From:
2623th flight on 28 June
TD1 : 233,PV1: 242,PV3: 382,LSP1: 74,LSP3: 202,LSP5: 270
TD2 : 305,PV2: 222,PV5: 49,LSP2: 294,LSP4: 125,LSP7: 112
NP1: 25,LSP8 : 88

To
2654th flight on 22 July
TD1 : 233,PV1: 242,*PV3: 383*,LSP1: 74,*LSP3: 213,LSP5: 276*
TD2 : 305,PV2: 222,*PV5: 51*,LSP2: 294,*LSP4: 128*,*LSP7: 115*
NP1: 25,*LSP8 : 93*

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## Jayanta

he-man said:


> Oh,,,man
> Looks like well.................modi effect.
> 
> To be frank here though where is the money gonna come from for amca??
> I mean lca mk1+2
> pakfa
> rafale
> amca
> 
> Seems rather presumptious don't u think??
> First we must focus on developing lca mk2,,,then only amca should come into the picture



To be true we can keep discussing these things for years as we have been doing but what really matters is the actual people doing the work. If they are relaxed and has no sense of urgency nothing's going to happen. LCA-MK2 was planned almost 6 years back...and the engines haven't arrived yet. MK-1 hasn't got the FOC, and is again delayed. AMCA is a distant dream....


----------



## he-man

Jayanta said:


> To be true we can keep discussing these things for years as we have been doing but what really matters is the actual people doing the work. If they are relaxed and has no sense of urgency nothing's going to happen. LCA-MK2 was planned almost 6 years back...and the engines haven't arrived yet. MK-1 hasn't got the FOC, and is again delayed. AMCA is a distant dream....



True that.
That was the true intent of my post.


----------



## sathya

Jayanta said:


> To be true we can keep discussing these things for years as we have been doing but what really matters is the actual people doing the work. If they are relaxed and has no sense of urgency nothing's going to happen. LCA-MK2 was planned almost 6 years back...and the engines haven't arrived yet. MK-1 hasn't got the FOC, and is again delayed. AMCA is a distant dream....




Engine contract was signed in 2013 only with first 24 direct purchase and rest tot built in India
Delivery is supposed to start in 2014..
I think everyone agrees US delivers developed products on time..

Engine was selected in 2010, and they wasted 2 years on negotiations ... Damn we negotiate as if time never worries us don't we ?

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## gslv mk3

Indus Falcon said:


> India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays



Buddy,you should have read the headline of that BS article before posting it here.


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## samy1618

sathya said:


> Engine contract was signed in 2013 only with first 24 direct purchase and rest tot built in India
> Delivery is supposed to start in 2014..
> I think everyone agrees US delivers developed products on time..
> 
> Engine was selected in 2010, and they wasted 2 years on negotiations ... Damn we negotiate as if time never worries us don't we ?


Is this an authentic news that only 24 GE414 engines will be bought off the shelf n rest will be built in house with a total Transfer of technology ..i mean 4th gen single crystal blade, metellargy n all the stuff


----------



## Superboy

samy1618 said:


> Is this an authentic news that only 24 GE414 engines will be bought off the shelf n rest will be built in house with a total Transfer of technology ..i mean 4th gen single crystal blade, metellargy n all the stuff




The US will never transfer any technology to India.


----------



## NKVD

Superboy said:


> The US will never transfer any technology to India.


Its not any key technology it's just a engine we have other options too p


----------



## samy1618

NKVD said:


> Its not any key technology it's just a engine we have other options too p


WHAT????? ITS THE MAIN TECH IN WHOLE GOD DANM FIGHTER PLAIN.. Like without a heart.. Lol so plz dont be so naive... Have thought something informative ..but u let me down.. Does name kaveri ring any bells ...


----------



## NKVD

MirBadshah said:


> Welcome to PFF.
> 
> Neo it this offer only for colleagues?................lol


In replying to a troll we can have Rd-93 as option in worstcase


----------



## sathya

samy1618 said:


> Is this an authentic news that only 24 GE414 engines will be bought off the shelf n rest will be built in house with a total Transfer of technology ..i mean 4th gen single crystal blade, metellargy n all the stuff


Yes only 24 , rest will be assembled in India ... 
Not sure how much of tech will be transferred ..


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## ANPP

Black Widow said:


> My dear frnd Sancho is not an expert.. He is Certified LCA troll..  No offence Sancho brother...
> 
> Here is my story:
> The Story of Marut: It was first Jet India made. It was good plane but failed because it was underpowered. India went to every one begging for engine, no one gave it to India. So India thought we will go and build fighter aircraft with engine. In 1969 condition was different and not everyone was ready to share knowledge or Engine.
> 
> After LCA program started there were 2 major speedbumps
> a) After Pokhran-II, LCA PV1 was parked in my garage for many years.
> b) Mulla-yam Singh tried to close LCA program on the request of Dallals..
> Some minor hickups were also there
> a) Dallals tried to stop LCA project as well
> 
> The ADA role can not be undermined. There was a ego clash between ADA and HAL, which made this thing worse. ADA mismanagement was also responsible. IAF attitude (and corrupt nexus) is also contributed to it.


 
You are excalty right bro.
And not only technical hindrances but also IAFs ignorance also kill the project. They can fly only 32 squardons but refusing to induct LCA because it is not good. Tell me a fighter name which was inducted in force in 100% form. We bark on Israelis tech but we refuse to see how they develop it. They develop theif first geet seeking missile, inducted in service and use it in arab wars.......even it was named rocket by their pilots.........the point is we need to incourage our scientists, high moral is the key of success.

I meet so many engineers who left DRDO just because of mental fatigue........and one say they worked hard day and night and in response they got just few desperated words. Because IAF personal are not getting heavy pocket for LCA.

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## KalaGhoda

seeing where the LCA stands today, it's expected. the butthurt on online forums. we are moving in the right direction. Cheers !!!

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## he-man

sathya said:


> Engine contract was signed in 2013 only with first 24 direct purchase and rest tot buil
> Delivery is supposed to start in 2014..
> I think everyone agrees US delivers developed products on time..
> 
> Engine was selected in 2010, and they wasted 2 years on negotiations ... Damn we negotiate as if time never worries us don't we ?





sathya said:


> Yes only 24 , rest will be assembled in India ...
> Not sure how much of tech will be transferred ..




0


----------



## greatone

ANPP said:


> You are excalty right bro.
> And not only technical hindrances but also IAFs ignorance also kill the project. They can fly only 32 squardons but refusing to induct LCA because it is not good. *Tell me a fighter name which was inducted in force in 100% form*. We bark on Israelis tech but we refuse to see how they develop it. They develop theif first geet seeking missile, inducted in service and use it in arab wars.......even it was named rocket by their pilots.........the point is we need to incourage our scientists, high moral is the key of success.
> 
> I meet so many engineers who left DRDO just because of mental fatigue........and one say they worked hard day and night and in response they got just few desperated words. Because IAF personal are not getting heavy pocket for LCA.



USAF did not flinch when it inducted F-16 without BVR missile and ground attack/PGM.

The same IAF did not flinch when it inducted the Su-30 MKI when it did not have a single missile(BVR or WVR) integrated in 1998.

Why this _sautela_ behaviour for our Tejas onlee ?

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## he-man

greatone said:


> USAF did not flinch when it inducted F-16 without BVR missile and ground attack/PGM.
> 
> The same IAF did not flinch when it inducted the Su-30 MKI when it did not have a single missile(BVR or WVR) integrated in 1998.
> 
> Why this _sautela_ behaviour for our Tejas onlee ?



Because its 2014.............


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## greatone

he-man said:


> Because its 2014.............


 ??
You make no sense.

_Bhai tu mereko quote na kiya kar..._


----------



## he-man

greatone said:


> ??
> You make no sense.
> 
> _Bhai tu mereko quote na kiya kar..._



As u wish
Now go back to jingoism again


----------



## ANPP

he-man said:


> Because its 2014.............


 
Excatly........now it is 2014.


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> Because its 2014.............


and .....


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> and .....



Its 2015 and then 2016 after this


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

greatone said:


> USAF did not flinch when it inducted F-16 without BVR missile and ground attack/PGM.
> 
> The same IAF did not flinch when it inducted the Su-30 MKI when it did not have a single missile(BVR or WVR) integrated in 1998.
> 
> Why this _sautela_ behaviour for our Tejas onlee ?



IAF is not interested in inducting anything Indian. Faaren maal comes with perks that is hard to resist. World over companies setup productions houses and book parts for large orders in advance. Only in India we expect HAL to setup a production house for meagre 40 planes. This is insane..



he-man said:


> Its 2015 and then 2016 after this


And then what..


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> IAF is not interested in inducting anything Indian. Faaren maal comes with perks that is hard to resist. World over companies setup productions houses and book parts for large orders in advance. Only in India we expect HAL to setup a production house for meagre 40 planes. This is insane..
> 
> 
> And then what..



Then it will be 2017 and we will be on same debate............................
Hope i am wrong


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> Then it will be 2017 and we will be on same debate............................
> Hope i am wrong



You are always wrong.


----------



## sathya

Let's diggin LCA..
I am awaiting some news about GE engines..


----------



## Kaalapani

he-man said:


> Then it will be 2017 and we will be on same debate............................
> Hope i am wrong



tELL ME ONE INSTANCE WHEN YOU WERE RIGHT?


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> You are always wrong.



Tu khush reh yaar


Kaalapani said:


> tELL ME ONE INSTANCE WHEN YOU WERE RIGHT?



I was never wrong..................not since 1 year at least.
Bookmark this post and see it after a year urself

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> Tu khush reh yaar
> 
> 
> I was never wrong..................not since 1 year at least.
> Bookmark this post and see it after a year urself


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


----------



## danish_vij

rockstar08 said:


> View attachment 40771


and yes i can


----------



## Black Widow

greatone said:


> USAF did not flinch when it inducted F-16 without BVR missile and ground attack/PGM.
> 
> The same IAF did not flinch when it inducted the Su-30 MKI when it did not have a single missile(BVR or WVR) integrated in 1998.
> 
> Why this _sautela_ behaviour for our Tejas onlee ?




Because Tejas will block corrupt ppl income...

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## he-man

Black Widow said:


> Because Tejas will block corrupt ppl income...



No,,it simply is not ready


----------



## NKVD

he-man said:


> No,,it simply is not ready


It will be ready by 2016 1st squadron will be inducted. It's indigenous platform we should feel optimistic about it.


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> No,,it simply is not ready


Just an excuse when you want to delay induction? Tejas is far more potent and safer than migs21 that keep killing our pilots on yearly basis. 

F16 , Rafale, F35, jf17, j10 were not ready when inducted. First you need to place large orders to justify the production and procurement cost. once that is done, you start production and testing in parallel. Testing schedule accelerates as more planes keep coming out. As you keep clearing the test point, you also upgrade older production lots.

You do all that if you are really interested in inducting indigenous planes.


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Just an excuse when you want to delay induction? Tejas is far more potent and safer than migs21 that keep killing our pilots on yearly basis.
> 
> F16 , Rafale, F35, jf17, j10 were not ready when inducted. First you need to place large orders to justify the production and procurement cost. once that is done, you start production and testing in parallel. Testing schedule accelerates as more planes keep coming out. As you keep clearing the test point, you also upgrade older production lots.
> 
> You do all that if you are really interested in inducting indigenous planes.



There is still an issue with radome of tejas.
The in flight refueling pod is not installed yet.
Some other problems too...................................which no one knows exactly

Point is there is no western alternative to LCA that we are pursuing or want to pursue,,,so all these conspiracy theories are baseless.Airforce wants it badly as this is the replacement of mig-21,,,there is no alternative.

Rafale deal and pakfa are not for mig-21 replacement.

Hence there is some problem which obviously people like us don't know


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> There is still an issue with radome of tejas.
> The in flight refueling pod is not installed yet.
> Some other problems too...................................which no one knows exactly
> 
> Point is there is no western alternative to LCA that we are pursuing or want to pursue,,,so all these conspiracy theories are baseless.Airforce wants it badly as this is the replacement of mig-21,,,there is no alternative.
> 
> Rafale deal and pakfa are not for mig-21 replacement.
> 
> Hence there is some problem which obviously people like us don't know



Urgency warrants that you actively take part in the process, induct and keep upgrading with each batch of test points cleared. Import warrants, you dont take part in the process and just keep whining about everything and anything wrong with the plane.

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## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Urgency warrants that you actively take part in the process, induct and keep upgrading with each batch of test points cleared. Import warrants, you dont take part in the process and just keep whining about everything and anything wrong with the plane.



I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate



he-man said:


> I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate



I have personally sat in a static mig-21 bison at the jodhpur base.
They are damn too old to be considered in 2014........

**** the cockpit is just horrible

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## kaykay

he-man said:


> I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate
> 
> 
> 
> I have personally sat in a static mig-21 bison at the jodhpur base.
> They are damn too old to be considered in 2014........
> 
> **** the cockpit is just horrible


also they are able to deal with anything our western neighbor put.

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## he-man

kaykay said:


> also they are able to deal with anything our western neighbor put.



No they are not.
They cannot match jf-17 ..................be reasonable man.

We need to phase out mig-21 as early as possible,,,we are loosing far too many people due to it


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


> I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate
> 
> 
> 
> I have personally sat in a static mig-21 bison at the jodhpur base.
> They are damn too old to be considered in 2014........
> 
> **** the cockpit is just horrible


But they can still kick *** of our western neighbors F-7s & Their Older Mirage variants


----------



## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> But they can still kick *** of our western neighbors F-7s & Their Older Mirage variants



Yes thats correct


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

he-man said:


> I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate
> 
> 
> 
> I have personally sat in a static mig-21 bison at the jodhpur base.
> They are damn too old to be considered in 2014........
> 
> **** the cockpit is just horrible



Mig21s are not even designed to be safe to fly. A minor mistake could prove to be fatal. Tejas on the other hand comes with care free handling thanks to its fly-by wire system. The system wont allow you to make mistake. No need to worry about spin and stall because the system does not allow you to breach the envelope.


----------



## kaykay

he-man said:


> No they are not.
> They cannot match jf-17 ..................be reasonable man.
> 
> We need to phase out mig-21 as early as possible,,,we are loosing far too many people due to it


I meant LCA man. regarding bisons, anything except f-16s and jf-17(they can match in dogfight but not in bvr)


----------



## he-man

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Mig21s are not even designed to be safe to fly. A minor mistake could prove to be fatal. Tejas on the other hand comes with care free handling thanks to its fly-by wire system. The system wont allow you to make mistake. No need to worry about spin and stall because the system does not allow you to breach the envelope.



What can we do man,,,when airforce dosen't care about its own people.
As i said earlier,,they are comparing ourselves to the west....................too greedy.

Look at what china did,,they made hundreds of flanker copies and now when they have to money,started making indigenous stuff.
We on the other hand just want greatest and the best without realizing how poor we really are relatively.



kaykay said:


> I meant LCA man. regarding bisons, anything except f-16s and jf-17(they can match in dogfight but not in bvr)



Sorry for confusion.
But therse machines are just too damn old to be kept flying.

Same goes for mig-27 and sepecat jaguar,,,they are just fighters on paper only

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## Black Widow

he-man said:


> No,,it simply is not ready




It will never get ready untill greedy IAF officers will keep craving for money... 


The pilots are murdered in old MiGs by these money greedy Babus and IAF officers.. But these greedy Son of Pigs will not allow desi system ... These Piglets will keep blocking desi system with some or other excuse...


----------



## he-man

Black Widow said:


> It will never get ready untill greedy IAF officers will keep craving for money...
> 
> 
> The pilots are murdered in old MiGs by these money greedy Babus and IAF officers.. But these greedy Son of Pigs will not allow desi system ... These Piglets will keep blocking desi system with some or other excuse...



The debate has progressed,,,we all sort of agree that it should be inducted and then upgraded along the way

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## KalaGhoda

kaykay said:


> also they are able to deal with anything our western neighbor put.




they can. but they are equally dangerous to our pilots..apart from the anything by pak. what is important here ? without a doubt...the life of the pilot.


----------



## Juggernautjatt

* LCA Tejas delayed further, to miss Dec deadline 
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service *

New Delhi, July 27
India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas, projected to replace the ageing Soviet-era MiG 21 fighter jets, has got delayed yet again – this time for six months or so.

*The December 2014 deadline for the final operational clearance (FoC) has been put on hold as around 1,700 parametres still need to be validated before the plane is inducted into the Indian Air Force.*

These 1,700 parametres — all vital for creating flight manuals and laying down specifics of the single engine plane — just cannot be completed within the next five months, top sources confirmed. The Ministry of Defence expects that the tests will be completed by the middle of 2015 and only then can clearance be given to fly these planes be given.

The tests are being conducted at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) of the Aeronautical Development Agency which has been supplied with half a dozen limited series production of the Tejas for carrying out the tests. These planes do some 30 sorties a month which are studied and analysed before moving onto the next step. The test for full integration of the warplanes weapons package and its electronic warfare suite besides the networking to enable pilots to log onto the IAF dedicated net.

In the meantime, the manufacturers of the Tejas — Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — a Ministry of Defence-owned public sector undertaking, has sought more time to start supplying the jets. The first of the ‘production series’ planes was to be delivered to the IAF in July this year, however, this deadline has been pushed to September, sources confirmed, adding that at least two should be delivered by the year-end.

The IAF on its part has informed the MoD that it will raise a squadron of the planes once it has at least 5-6 of the jets and the remaining can be added in stages. A squadron is normally 18 planes. The HAL has a capacity to produce eight of the Tejas per year. The IAF ordered 40 of the first lot of Tejas Mark-I – that is two squadrons and some war reserves. With these numbers, the IAF wants the HAL to ramp up capacity and increase it to at least 14 planes per year.

Sources said the MoD has moved a proposal that will entail infrastructure cost sharing by the IAF, the HAL and the Navy – the HAL is also making a Naval variant and developed a prototype for operations on the sea-borne aircraft carriers.

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for LCA Mark-1 was received in December last year and India has spent nearly US $4 billion (about Rs 24,000 crore) – not much as these are niche technologies. The Mark-I of the plane is powered by the US company General Electric GE 404 engines.

The HAL is planning a Mark-2 with additional features such as upgraded avionics and active electronically scanned array radar and the ability to reach supersonic speed. This will be powered by a GE 414 engine – the same used by the Boeing Super Hornet F-18-A.

*The reason




* The final operational clearance has been put on hold as around 1,700 parametres still need to be validated before the Tejas is inducted into the Indian Air Force*



* These parametres are vital for creating flight manuals and laying down specifics of the single engine plane and cannot be completed within the next five months*



* The Ministry of Defence expects that the tests will be completed by the middle of 2015


----------



## rockstarIN

So the first squadron with 5-6 planes will be formed by IAF by end of 2015.


----------



## Juggernautjatt

most assumably 3 or 4 planes will be delivered to IAF by end of year 2015


----------



## Sandeep Das

IAF should try and focus LCA on ground attack as well.
Both our bombers Mig 27 and Jaguar are to be phased out starting 2017.
For Air Superiority and General multirole Su-30mki, mig 29 suffice respectively. M-2000 backs mig 29 in general multirole.
Rafale will come along and fully ensure air superiority as well as general multirole.

India will have a complete absence of dedicated bombers after Mig 27 and Jaguars are retired.
The Mk2 should give greater emphasis on A2G.


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## Juggernautjatt

Sandeep Das said:


> IAF should try and focus LCA on ground attack as well.
> Both our bombers Mig 27 and Jaguar are to be phased out starting 2017.
> For Air Superiority and General multirole Su-30mki, mig 29 suffice respectively. M-2000 backs mig 29 in general multirole.
> Rafale will come along and fully ensure air superiority as well as general multirole.
> 
> India will have a complete absence of dedicated bombers after Mig 27 and Jaguars are retired.
> The Mk2 should give greater emphasis on A2G.


Tejas is a multirole fighter with both air to air & air to ground capability.It can drop different type of A2G weapons including LGBs.You can't compare Tejas with Jaguar as the latter is twin engine deep penetration strike aircraft with much more payload carrying capacity.
Tejas is point defence fighter because of its limited range & payload carrying ability.SU-30MKI & Dassault Rafale will be future IAF tactical bombers as well as air superiority fighters.


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## Manindra

Juggernautjatt said:


> Tejas is a multirole fighter with both air to air & air to ground capability.It can drop different type of A2G weapons including LGBs.*You can't compare Tejas with Jaguar as the latter is twin engine deep penetration strike aircraft with much more payload carrying capacity.*
> Tejas is point defence fighter because of its limited range & payload carrying ability.SU-30MKI & Dassault Rafale will be future IAF tactical bombers as well as air superiority fighters.



This sentence is completely wrong. LCA is well ahead in payload & range or any other feature compare to SepecatJaguar.

SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ashok321

Manindra said:


> This sentence is completely wrong. LCA is well ahead in payload & range or any other feature compare to SepecatJaguar.
> 
> SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Manindra

ashok321 said:


> View attachment 41167



You should also check empty weight of both planes.

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## ashok321

Manindra said:


> You should also check empty weight of both planes.



One is twin engine, so empty weight not worth comparing..
Payload is always relative to thrust..

You are involving "Evolution" with "revolution" = two different things..


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## Manindra

ashok321 said:


> One is twin engine, so empty weight not worth comparing..
> Payload is always relative to thrust..
> 
> You are involving "Evolution" with "revolution" = two different things..


Jaguar engine is not powerful enough so it does not give that enough thrust that's why IAF is plan to replace it. Currently I am on smartphone so @sancho can you elaborate him that Jaguar is obsolete in front of LCA .


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## ashok321

Manindra said:


> Jaguar engine is not powerful enough so it does not give that enough thrust that's why IAF is plan to replace it. Currently I am on smartphone so @sancho can you elaborate him that Jaguar is obsolete in front of LCA .



Now you are changing the parameters...
The central point was "payload"
Now you are switching over to "Obsolete"
Stay on central point = "Payload.



> The block 60 F-16E/F, which is being developed for the United Arab Emirates, features *extra payload* and range, in part *due to the new F110-132 engine* being developed by General Electric, which produces *145kN of thrust*.





Manindra said:


> *Jaguar engine is not powerful enough* so it does not give that enough thrust that's why IAF is plan to replace it. Currently I am on smartphone so @sancho can you elaborate him that Jaguar is obsolete in front of LCA .



Did I say that it is (powerful)??
We are talking about "payload" only..

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## Black Widow

Manindra said:


> Jaguar engine is not powerful enough so it does not give that enough thrust that's why IAF is plan to replace it. Currently I am on smartphone so @sancho can you elaborate him that Jaguar is obsolete in front of LCA .




Who started Jaguar Vs LCA discussion???

Don't you know both are different type of planes? Jaguar is Fighter Bomber (Like Su34) while LCA is Multirole fighter (Like Su30 MKI)... 

Jaguar is suppose to carry more bombs, but that don't change its role...


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## sudhir007

IAF LCA squadron awaits first aircraft after fresh delay - The Economic Times

More than seven months after it was cleared for being flown by IAF pilots, the entry of the first LCA Tejas in its newly-raised squadron in Bangalore is still awaited as the project has been delayed yet again. 

IAF has raised its 45 Squadron at Bangalore for allowing its pilots to fly the aircraft and was supposed to induct the first Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in March this year. 

But the schedule has now been shifted to coming September, sources said here. 

The delay is also understood to have pushed backed the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of the aircraft from December this year to March 2015. 

Flight manuals, the aircraft manual and other basic documents required by pilots to operate the aircraft are also not yet ready, the sources added. 

The LCA programme, cleared in August 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s in IAF's combat fleet, has missed several deadlines. 

Asked about the delays, a HAL spokesperson said that as far as the production of LCAs was concerned, "HAL is on the right path and there is no delivery issue at this stage." 

He said the HAL LCA Project Group has now been upgraded to a full-fledged division to look after production in a systematic way with more investments.


----------



## kaykay

if I'm not wrong then 6 tejas aircrafts are under production right now and would be delivered in next few months.


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## sancho

ashok321 said:


> The central point was "payload"



Payload is only a paper figure that doesn't tell you about the real carrying capability of a fighter, without including the number of hardpoints or the load limitations. 

Typical strike config of Jaguar and LCA MK1 would be:

2 x fuel tanks (at the inner wing stations)
1 x LDP (at the centerline station for the Jags, at the pod station for the LCA)
2 x 1000lb LGBs (at the mid wing station, a 3rd one possible for LCA at the centerline)
2 x IR missiles for self defence (at the overwingstation for the Jags, or the external wingstation for the LCA)















So even if the Jag has more payload on paper, the standard strike config is the same, while the LCA even has space left for more weapons or fuel.

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## Harisudan

he-man said:


> What can we do man,,,when airforce dosen't care about its own people.
> As i said earlier,,they are comparing ourselves to the west....................too greedy.
> 
> Look at what china did,,they made hundreds of flanker copies and now when they have to money,started making indigenous stuff.
> We on the other hand just want greatest and the best without realizing how poor we really are relatively.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for confusion.
> But therse machines are just too damn old to be kept flying.
> 
> Same goes for mig-27 and sepecat jaguar,,,they are just fighters on paper only



Hi,
Have you ever saw or heard any news about a Jaguar getting crashed..Jaguars were some of the most reliable ground attack and our only reliable options for maritime strike role for few decades and they did their job pretty well..Besides the IAF thinks it will still be doing its duty for few more years that's why they upgraded its engine and guidance systems to DARIN standards..
Hence let us not just bash the legacy fighter and pay the respect it deserves..Thanks

Once, I heard a story from my flight instructor that a Jaguar while on a usual training sortie was returning to base and one engine developed some compressor malfunction and hence couldn't develop much thrust to support..But the other engine pulled it and the pilot grounded the aircraft safely that day, since the Aircraft was fully loaded it would have been fatal if it had crashed in populated areas.. This was from a very reliable sources trust me..Thanks


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## nik22

Harisudan said:


> Hi,
> This was from a very reliable sources trust me..Thanks


@he-man , trust no one. That is his quality


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## sancho

> ...Asked about the delays, a HAL spokesperson said that as far as the production of LCAs was concerned, "HAL is on the right path and there is no delivery issue at this stage."
> 
> He said the HAL LCA Project Group has now been upgraded to a full-fledged division to look after production in a systematic way with more investments.
> 
> "The new initiative will help enhance the rate of production and reduce production cycle-times by incorporating several advanced defence aerospace technologies," the spokesperson said.



IAF LCA squadron still awaits first aircraft | Brahmand News

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## Gryphon

*Tejas FOC delayed again, Indian defence minister admits*

*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
29 July 2014

The December 2014 deadline for India's long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk I to secure its final operational clearance (FOC) is being extended to March 2015, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley told parliament on 18 July.





_FOC for the Tejas Mk I was scheduled for December 2014, but is likely to be pushed back to 2015 at the earliest, officials say. (IHS/James Hardy)_

Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers told _IHS Jane's_ on 30 July that considering the aircraft's numerous technical shortcomings, FOC could be pushed back even further.

The LCA Mk I received its initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2013 after securing provisional IOC in January 2011.

Official sources said "several hundred" of the single-engine fighter's test points and other operational parameters needed validation by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in Bangalore.

To read the full article, Client Login
(109 of 479 words)

Tejas FOC delayed again, Indian defence minister admits - IHS Jane's 360

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## Harisudan

Hi,
These Defence ministry people are like parrots they repeat whatever was told to them by others..The HAL and the Programme director for LCA, knows very well, what to do and what not to do..Infact the modifications and advancements since LCA's first prototype came out were very very impressive to be frank..
When it gets FOC, trust me its gonna be a kick *** one for sure...
Every possible technical hitches were addressed and Thrust developed (Both wet/Dry) are upto expectations and they are planning to add two short range Missiles to the Pay load after the recent trials and the performance satisfactory levels achieved during the High altitude trials..So all I can say is, those who bash LCA let them bash..those who are worried of its delay, get ready for a surprise..
Because LCA had exceeded every level of Bechmarking laid in front and is going to be one of its kind..
But only drawback with LCA MK1 will be that it will be having GE 414 engine but not our Kaveri..Mark2 will definitely be a different story guys...BTW, I shared whatever I saw with my two eyes..I don't have any sources to quote..[/quote]






TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Tejas FOC delayed again, Indian defence minister admits*
> 
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 29 July 2014
> 
> The December 2014 deadline for India's long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk I to secure its final operational clearance (FOC) is being extended to March 2015, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley told parliament on 18 July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FOC for the Tejas Mk I was scheduled for December 2014, but is likely to be pushed back to 2015 at the earliest, officials say. (IHS/James Hardy)_
> 
> Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers told _IHS Jane's_ on 30 July that considering the aircraft's numerous technical shortcomings, FOC could be pushed back even further.
> 
> The LCA Mk I received its initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2013 after securing provisional IOC in January 2011.
> 
> Official sources said "several hundred" of the single-engine fighter's test points and other operational parameters needed validation by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in Bangalore.
> 
> To read the full article
> (109 of 479 words)


----------



## samy1618

Harisudan said:


> Hi,
> These Defence ministry people are like parrots they repeat whatever was told to them by others..The HAL and the Programme director for LCA, knows very well, what to do and what not to do..Infact the modifications and advancements since LCA's first prototype came out were very very impressive to be frank..
> When it gets FOC, trust me its gonna be a kick *** one for sure...
> Every possible technical hitches were addressed and Thrust developed (Both wet/Dry) are upto expectations and they are planning to add two short range Missiles to the Pay load after the recent trials and the performance satisfactory levels achieved during the High altitude trials..So all I can say is, those who bash LCA let them bash..those who are worried of its delay, get ready for a surprise..
> Because LCA had exceeded every level of Bechmarking laid in front and is going to be one of its kind..
> But only drawback with LCA MK1 will be that it will be having GE 414 engine but not our Kaveri..Mark2 will definitely be a different story guys...BTW, I shared whatever I saw with my two eyes..I don't have any sources to quote..


[/quote]
Chasmainbadoor


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## Harisudan

Chasmainbadoor[/quote]

U mean????


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## ashok321

sancho said:


> *Payload is only a paper figure* that doesn't tell you about the real carrying capability of a fighter, without including the number of hardpoints or the load limitations.
> 
> Typical strike config of Jaguar and LCA MK1 would be:
> 
> 2 x fuel tanks (at the inner wing stations)
> 1 x LDP (at the centerline station for the Jags, at the pod station for the LCA)
> 2 x 1000lb LGBs (at the mid wing station, a 3rd one possible for LCA at the centerline)
> 2 x IR missiles for self defence (at the overwingstation for the Jags, or the external wingstation for the LCA)
> So even if the Jag has more payload on paper, the standard strike config is the same, while the LCA even has space left for more weapons or fuel.



Lol at you for writing above highlighted childish stuff.

Maximum permissible take off weight is only on the paper? 

Max take off weight is relative to aircraft's thrust, the higher the thrust, the more the take off weight.

Hard points or pylons are added to combat bird, considering its payload capacity...

Can the LCA have 10 hard points with half its engine thrust ?
No...
Pylons are added, which in turn exceeds the payload of the aircraft. And this is pre-configured, based on the thrust of an aircraft = reaction force = propelling aircraft forward..

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## narcon

> *F/W* is the thrust to weight ratio and it is directly proportional to the acceleration of the aircraft. An aircraft with a high thrust to weight ratio has high acceleration. For most flight conditions, an aircraft with a high thrust to weight ratio will also have a high value of excess thrust. High excess thrust results in a high rate of climb



These are aerodynamic basis from NASA site.

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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Payload is only a paper figure that doesn't tell you about the real carrying capability of a fighter, without including the number of hardpoints or the load limitations.
> 
> Typical strike config of Jaguar and LCA MK1 would be:
> 
> 2 x fuel tanks (at the inner wing stations)
> 1 x LDP (at the centerline station for the Jags, at the pod station for the LCA)
> 2 x 1000lb LGBs (at the mid wing station, a 3rd one possible for LCA at the centerline)
> 2 x IR missiles for self defence (at the overwingstation for the Jags, or the external wingstation for the LCA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So even if the Jag has more payload on paper, the standard strike config is the same, while the LCA even has space left for more weapons or fuel.


hi @sancho is it possible to use overwingstation in LCA


----------



## sancho

ashok321 said:


> Maximum permissible take off weight is only on the paper?



Max take off weight is relative to aircraft's thrust, the higher the thrust, the more the take off weight.

Strange, who is diverting topic now? I thought you were talking about "payload":



ashok321 said:


> Now you are changing the parameters...
> The central point was "payload"
> Now you are switching over to "Obsolete"
> Stay on central point = "Payload.



 Are we using double standards here? Payload is related to the number of hardpoints and it's limitations, no matter if you like it or not. The Jag can't carry more LGBs loads than the LCA, that's a fact!




ashok321 said:


> Can the LCA have 10 hard points with half its engine thrust ?



What has the number of hardpoints to do with the thrust? If they re-design the wings with added wingtip stations, LCA could have 10 hardpoints with the same thrust too, but it could only carry SR AAMs at that stations, because of the weight limits of the wingtips! Just as payload or thrust have no relation to the fact, that you can only carry SR missiles at the external wingstation, because the weight limit again is too low for heavier loads. Or the fact that it can't carry 1200l fuel tanks at the centerline station, because of the size limitations, while the weight limit is probably higher.
So there are a lot of factors that decides about the weapon or load config, but not the theoretical possible payload figure on paper, nor the maximum take off weight, which has even less to do with the weapon load, since you can have unlimited payload and MTOW, but it's no use if you have only 5 hardpoints for heavier loads and at least 2 of them are occupied by fuel tanks. In the case of the Jag and the shown load config, the centerline is even occupied by the LDP, while LCA has a dedicated station for it.

Btw, IAFs Mig 29 UPG, more hardpoints and weapons than before, same series -3 engines. Mirage 2000 UPG, will carry more missiles than before, same engine M53-P engines. MKI UPG will carry Brahmos, same AL 31 engines.[/quote]



sudhir007 said:


> hi @sancho is it possible to use overwingstation in LCA



I guess so, but with aerodynamic issues and no use since you can only carry rail launched missiles and as explained above, it wouldn't even free the external wing hadpoint for bigger loads, since the weight limit is just around 150Kg. The only way to use more useful weapon configs, are either smaller weapons on multi launchers, or freeing the inner wingstations by increasing internal fuel. We know that the MK2 will have more fuel, how much more is questionable though.


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## ashok321

@sancho


> Max take off weight is relative to aircraft's thrust, the higher the thrust, the more the take off weight.
> 
> Strange, who is diverting topic now? I thought you were talking about "*payload*":



Oye stupido...

Payload = weight!!!

I rest my case here.
You do not even know what is on the plate..


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## rockstarIN

@sancho In Mk2, where we get more powerful engine..can't we add rail launcher with two missiles in one station? provided the engine power addition will reduce drag hence more weight capability for wing stations?

Since in M2k upgrade, there is no plane structural change/air frame modificaion(no further strengthening the wings) but still add more station aka more load?


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> @sancho In Mk2, where we get more powerful engine..can't we add rail launcher with two missiles in one station? provided the engine power addition will reduce drag hence more weight capability for wing stations?



As explained, the number of hardpoints has nothing to do with thrust and as officials stated they wanted to make as little external changes as possible (although I find that questionable) therefor opted against the re design of the wings. For A2A missions that might not even be necessary, if the fuel increase can replace fuel tanks, the problem is the fact that we can't use heavier strike configs, fuel tanks and a full set of AAMs including BVR missiles. They might add twin pylons for 500lb LGBs and personally I would perfer a centerline SPICE 250 quad pack at the centerline, but at the end of the day LCA is a small light class fighter with limited space for hardpoints. 



rockstarIN said:


> Since in M2k upgrade, there is no plane structural change/air frame modificaion(no further strengthening the wings) but still add more station aka more load?



The Mirage upgrade include MICA missiles, which now can be carried at the fuselage stations, that makes it abe to carry 5 to 6 x AAMs in every mission, while n Kargil the M2K could carry onl LGBs and 2 x SR missiles, with external self protection pod even only a single missile.

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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> @sancho In Mk2, where we get more powerful engine..can't we add rail launcher with two missiles in one station? provided the engine power addition will reduce drag hence more weight capability for wing stations?
> 
> Since in M2k upgrade, there is no plane structural change/air frame modificaion(no further strengthening the wings) but still add more station aka more load?



Also m-53 is rated at 95 kn of thrust compared to 80-85 kn for ge-404


----------



## ANPP

he-man said:


> I agree here,,,,they are atleast better than mig-21's at any rate
> 
> 
> 
> I have personally sat in a static mig-21 bison at the jodhpur base.
> They are damn too old to be considered in 2014........
> 
> **** the cockpit is just horrible


 
Tejus is at least equal to upgraded miraj, that what miraj pilot itself says. So dont think that tejus will be most inferior plane in IAf.

Bison are too old. Thats why we need to replace. Now do you think 40 mk1 and 89 mk2 order justify that they are replacemnt for bisons.

Originally mk2 requirment was came from IN, as they need bigger engine for carrier operatioms. So mk2 future in IAF in was never clear. They are just postponding the things.


----------



## he-man

ANPP said:


> Tejus is at least equal to upgraded miraj, that what miraj pilot itself says. So font think that tejus will be most inferior plane in IAf.



No its not...............not untill it gets the foc


----------



## Superboy

ANPP said:


> Tejus is at least equal to upgraded miraj, that what miraj pilot itself says. So dont think that tejus will be most inferior plane in IAf.
> 
> Bison are too old. Thats why we need to replace. Now do you think 40 mk1 and 89 mk2 order justify that they are replacemnt for bisons.
> 
> Originally mk2 requirment was came from IN, as they need bigger engine for carrier operatioms. So mk2 future in IAF in was never clear. They are just postponding the things.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but no way Tejas is even in the same size class as Mirage.


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## ANPP

Superboy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but no way Tejas is even in the same size class as Mirage.


 
Either 6t or 7tons, it falls in light weight category. BTW he was talking about tejus flight performance.



he-man said:


> No its not...............not untill it gets the foc


 
It get IOC2 recently. FOC will be acheived by next june any lway. What I get in one artical was very interesting. It says that tejus induction was delayed because HAL was unable to produce tejus. The assembly line which was built for tejus by GoI fund was used to manufacturer the newer Jaguar. Another example of IAF's.........


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## hiphop

http://***************/attachments/b1-jpg.1547/http://***************/attachments/b2-jpg.1548/http://***************/attachments/b3-jpg.1549/http://***************/attachments/b4-jpg.1550/http://***************/attachments/b5-jpg.1551/http://***************/attachments/b6-jpg.1552/http://***************/attachments/b7-jpg.1553/http://***************/attachments/b8-jpg.1554/http://***************/attachments/b9-jpg.1555/http://***************/attachments/b10-jpg.1556/

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## Jayanta

hiphop said:


> http://***************/attachments/b1-jpg.1547/http://***************/attachments/b2-jpg.1548/http://***************/attachments/b3-jpg.1549/http://***************/attachments/b4-jpg.1550/http://***************/attachments/b5-jpg.1551/http://***************/attachments/b6-jpg.1552/http://***************/attachments/b7-jpg.1553/http://***************/attachments/b8-jpg.1554/http://***************/attachments/b9-jpg.1555/http://***************/attachments/b10-jpg.1556/



All empty Jig...looks like an abandoned factory. Arre kitne saal aur delay karte rahoge bhai log. Kab karoge 1 squadron induct.


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## k7x

HAL is a crap.. look at the dust in all the machine. and the quality of the workplace is like from a workshop used in ww2



Can any one make a video with the above pic.. 

compare it with the pictures in below article. 

Cover Story - Mahindra enters aircraft components manufacture in India | Automotive Products Finder

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## he-man

k7x said:


> HAL is a crap.. look at the dust in all the machine. and the quality of the workplace is like from a workshop used in ww2
> 
> 
> 
> Can any one make a video with the above pic..
> 
> compare it with the pictures in below article.
> 
> Cover Story - Mahindra enters aircraft components manufacture in India | Automotive Products Finder



Thats correct,,,HAL will ensure that we will remain importers for 100's of years to come


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Thats correct,,,HAL will ensure that we will remain importers for 100's of years to come



Reform hojayenge kuch mahino mein fikar mat kaaro


----------



## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Reform hojayenge kuch mahino mein fikar mat kaaro


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


>



Theek hai i will talk when the process have been initiated


----------



## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Theek hai i will talk when the process have been initiated



Oh,,,i will be waiting for ur reply then.


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Oh,,,i will be waiting for ur reply then.



Me too

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## Juggernautjatt

Modi govt. is quite capable from our last govt. but still I would say Mr.Modi is not Jeannie of Alladin.Don't expect any quick makeover in defence production.


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## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> Modi govt. is quite capable from our last govt. but still I would say Mr.Modi is not Jeannie of Alladin.Don't expect any quick makeover in defence production.



Then we will never get a chance again as never again will a party gey simple majority on its own.............nope.

He has to take hard decisions and disinvestment of public cos is necessary


----------



## Juggernautjatt

he-man said:


> Then we will never get a chance again as never again will a party gey simple majority on its own.............nope.
> 
> He has to take hard decisions and disinvestment of public cos is necessary


Apart from disinvestment of HAL signing MoUs with Indian private companies like Mahindra Aerospace, Reliance Aerospace Technologies,Taneja Aerospace & Aviation etc will be good for our aviation needs.

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## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> Apart from disinvestment of HAL signing MoUs with Indian private companies like Mahindra Aerospace, Reliance Aerospace Technologies,Taneja Aerospace & Aviation etc will be good for our aviation needs.



Anything apart from HAL is a positive step.............sarkari companies stink.
A nation of 7-8 million(israel) makes almost everything better than us.....wtf is that


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Anything apart from HAL is a positive step.............sarkari companies stink.
> *A nation of 7-8 million(israel) makes almost everything better than us.....wtf is that*



Kismaat hai bhai or Hard work bhi & don't worry wait for the next budget for some big bang reforms,i still don't know why were people expecting massive reforms in 45 days


----------



## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Kismaat hai bhai or Hard work bhi & don't worry wait for the next budget for some big bang reforms,i still don't know why were people expecting massive reforms in 45 days



I am not,,,i will be happy if reforms come in 5 years


----------



## Juggernautjatt

Most saddest aspect of our nation is that we have conglomerates capable of building quality technologies but still our forces are struggling with their equipment.


----------



## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> Most saddest aspect of our nation is that we have conglomerates capable of building quality technologies but still our forces are struggling with their equipment.




No,,not at the moment.

We need jv's at the moment to get some tech,,,maybe in 10-12 years we will start producing high level tech on our own


----------



## skynet

Any news about sp 1 ????


----------



## Donatello

he-man said:


> Anything apart from HAL is a positive step.............sarkari companies stink.
> A nation of 7-8 million(israel) makes almost everything better than us.....wtf is that




And yet their IAI an RAFAEL, two majore defense companies, are Government owned/ventures.HAL can do it as well, you just need to purge it of corrupt members and political meddling. Learning from Tejas, the GoI should have fired all those responsible for delays and making fake milistones.


----------



## he-man

Donatello said:


> And yet their IAI an RAFAEL, two majore defense companies, are Government owned/ventures.HAL can do it as well, you just need to purge it of corrupt members and political meddling. Learning from Tejas, the GoI should have fired all those responsible for delays and making fake milistones.



As usual u don't know the real difference between our sarkari companies and theirs even urs.

Ours have 50% quotas for schedule caste/tribes and other backward castes.
In simple words 50 % of manpower should never even be there in pure technical terms.

What do u expect from such workforce??


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## Juggernautjatt

he-man said:


> No,,not at the moment.
> 
> We need jv's at the moment to get some tech,,,*maybe in 10-12 years we will start producing high level tech on our own*


It will only be possible if they earn profit but MoD thinking is totally absurd.Take example of IN LPD tender MoD wants private shipyards to share their work with HSL (the same shipyard jis ne INS Sindhukirti ki maa bhen kardi upgrade karne k nam pe & the boat is unfixable now).
Another main reason for our failure in producing hi tech technologies is our useless universities.In Israel universities are main reason for their success.

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## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> It will only be possible if they earn profit but MoD thinking is totally absurd.Take example of IN LPD tender MoD wants private shipyards to share their work with HSL (the same shipyard jis ne INS Sindhukirti ki maa bhen kardi upgrade karne k nam pe & the boat is unfixable now).
> Another main reason for our failure in producing hi tech technologies is our useless universities.In Israel universities are main reason for their success.



U are making good points.Anyone who has seen our universities knows how much we really suck.
We are at least 15 years behind western standards,,,,,even 7-8 years behind chinese


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## Donatello

he-man said:


> As usual u don't know the real difference between our sarkari companies and theirs even urs.
> 
> Ours have 50% quotas for schedule caste/tribes and other backward castes.
> In simple words 50 % of manpower should never even be there in pure technical terms.
> 
> What do u expect from such workforce??



Whether you have scheduled castes quota or not, the point is, if people are not working for the collective benefit, they don't need to be there. Perhaps, the government can remove such blanket quotas and hire on merit. That's how it happens in the rest of the world. If you don't fix this, then no matter what JV HAL does or how much money the government pours in, the same old case will keep happening. The choice is yours.


----------



## he-man

Donatello said:


> Whether you have scheduled castes quota or not, the point is, if people are not working for the collective benefit, they don't need to be there. Perhaps, the government can remove such blanket quotas and hire on merit. That's how it happens in the rest of the world. If you don't fix this, then no matter what JV HAL does or how much money the government pours in, the same old case will keep happening. The choice is yours.



LOL,,,no one can remove the quotas.
Thats the problem


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


> No,,not at the moment.
> 
> We need jv's at the moment to get some tech,,,maybe in 10-12 years we will start producing high level tech on our own



What about that Indian company MKU,if we order in significant quantities they can open manufacturing plants here too



Donatello said:


> Whether you have scheduled castes quota or not, the point is, if people are not working for the collective benefit, they don't need to be there. Perhaps, the government can remove such blanket quotas and hire on merit. That's how it happens in the rest of the world. If you don't fix this, then no matter what JV HAL does or how much money the government pours in, the same old case will keep happening. The choice is yours.



That's the damn problem no one has the guts to remove quotas,even Modi Sarkar.but we can try a subtle solution pvt sector doesn't has this quota problem,so involvement of Pvt sector + we can slowly privatize HAL

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## trident2010

Quotas are the curse for India. Include more private sector as they don't have quotas and try to get best minds to get the job done.

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## Jayanta

trident2010 said:


> Quotas are the curse for India. Include more private sector as they don't have quotas and try to get best minds to get the job done.



It is not just the quota system there is a strong regional lobby and nepotism inside the DRDO and other government organizations.


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## he-man

Jayanta said:


> It is not just the quota system there is a strong regional lobby and nepotism inside the DRDO and other government organizations.



Nope,,mainly quota is at fault.
When ur 50% workforce gets in on the basis of caste then u can achieve nothing


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## Juggernautjatt

It is very easy for some engineers with 40% marks to get government job & for some people 80% are not enough.This is our quota system.

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## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> It is very easy for some engineers with 40% marks to get government job & for some people 80% are not enough.This is our quota system.



Only people who have given competition exams know this,,,rest know shit

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## indiatester

he-man said:


> Only people who have given competition exams know this,,,rest know shit


I can even forgive the entry quota. What really hurts is quota even in promotions. The dumb@$$ sitting next to you gets promoted for just showing his face where as you have to work your's off.
That is a major demoralizing factor as well.

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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Only people who have given competition exams know this,,,rest know shit



why don't we remove quota in promotions,a lot of problems will be solved or slowly make all D-PSUs private

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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> why don't we remove quota in promotions,a lot of problems will be solved or slowly make all D-PSUs private



we can't

parliament too has reservation,thats why

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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> we can't
> 
> parliament too has reservation,thats why



making them slowly pvt is the best solution then & giving a greater role to Pvt sector.Once these Quota suckers see that their jobs are at stake & they will have to perform or Pvt sector will take their jobs they will start working too


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## Juggernautjatt

Echo_419 said:


> why don't we remove quota in promotions,a lot of problems will be solved or slowly make all D-PSUs private


The Supreme Court, in its 16 November 1992 judgment in the Indra Sahney case, ruled that reservations in promotions are unconstitutional but all political parties unanimously made 77th amendment to the Constitution to please their vote bank & decision of Supreme Court became invalid.
Key scientific institutions like ISRO,HAL,DRDO are suffering from reservation only few like Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay & Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research are out of it.


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## Echo_419

Juggernautjatt said:


> The Supreme Court, in its 16 November 1992 judgment in the Indra Sahney case, ruled that reservations in promotions are unconstitutional but all political parties unanimously made 77th amendment to the Constitution to please their vote bank & decision of Supreme Court became invalid.
> Key scientific institutions like ISRO,HAL,DRDO are suffering from reservation only few like Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay & Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research are out of it.



If the BJP manages to get a majority in RS & if they are really as good as we all think they are,perhaps they can atleast pass a law in the parliament to keep such institutions out of reservation.But we have to wait till 2017 till they get majority in RS,this thing can be achieved with the help of CBI


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## rockstarIN

Juggernautjatt said:


> The Supreme Court, in its 16 November 1992 judgment in the Indra Sahney case, ruled that reservations in promotions are unconstitutional but all political parties unanimously made 77th amendment to the Constitution to please their vote bank & decision of Supreme Court became invalid.
> Key scientific institutions like ISRO,HAL,DRDO are suffering from reservation only few like Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay & Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research are out of it.


Once I talked one in bmrc guy who are in the recruitment team told the best among best got recruit ed. I do not know about others


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## Juggernautjatt

Echo_419 said:


> If the BJP manages to get a majority in RS & if they are really as good as we all think they are,perhaps they can atleast pass a law in the parliament to keep such institutions out of reservation.But we have to wait till 2017 till they get majority in RS,this thing can be achieved with the help of CBI


Don't be so optimistic about BJP because amendments to provide promotion in reservation were brought thrice during the tenure of Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led NDA government and just once during the Congress government.No party wants to loose their vote bank.Privatisation is the only way.

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## Echo_419

Juggernautjatt said:


> Don't be so optimistic about BJP because amendments to provide promotion in reservation were brought thrice during the tenure of Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led NDA government and just once during the Congress government.No party wants to loose their vote bank.Privatisation is the only way.



Well a man in my position can just hope & don't underestimate modi,he might just be able to pull this off


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Well a man in my position can just hope & don't underestimate modi,he might just be able to pull this off



He cannot,,,no one can................we are fucked for decades to come


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## Juggernautjatt

rockstarIN said:


> Once I talked one in bmrc guy who are in the recruitment team told the best among best got recruit ed. I do not know about others


Somebody has challenged reservation free selection process of bmrc in court
Court notice on BMRCL recruitment - The Hindu

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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> He cannot,,,no one can................we are fucked for decades to come



No we are not stop thinking so negatively,if Reservation thing is not solved[which i think there is a good chance of happening]there are many other ways to correct the situation


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> No we are not stop thinking so negatively,if Reservation thing is not solved[which i think there is a good chance of happening]there are many other ways to correct the situation



U don't know the facts..........every 10 years there is a review on reservation whether to extend it or stop it.........last it happened 1-2 years back.

Now wait for post 2020



Juggernautjatt said:


> Somebody has challenged reservation free selection process of bmrc in court
> Court notice on BMRCL recruitment - The Hindu



fucking retard nation


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## Johny D

Echo_419 said:


> Well a man in my position can just hope & don't underestimate modi,he might just be able to pull this off


 profile mein Sonia Gandhi and mu pe Narendra Modi ...sahi hai


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## Echo_419

JD_In said:


> profile mein Sonia Gandhi and mu pe Narendra Modi ...sahi hai



Just look at the trillion dollar smile yaar,also it reminds me of what dark times my county was in & i should do everything i can to prevent us from going back there.



he-man said:


> U don't know the facts..........every 10 years there is a review on reservation whether to extend it or stop it.........last it happened 1-2 years back.
> 
> Now wait for post 2020
> 
> 
> 
> fucking retard nation



so you think that this man won't be in power for another term,in 2017 when BJP will gain majority in RS also & will have a complete hold over the parliament,they might not be able to fully roll back reservation but might pass some laws which will remove reservation from Strategic Institutions like ISRO,DRDO & HAL


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Just look at the trillion dollar smile yaar,also it reminds me of what dark times my county was in & i should do everything i can to prevent us from going back there.



change kar yaar,,,ali asgar sai tha
please

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## Juggernautjatt

Echo_419 said:


> No we are not stop thinking so negatively,if Reservation thing is not solved[which i think there is a good chance of happening]there are many other ways to correct the situation


Well I am not a pessimistic but Modi did nothing to decrease reservation in Gujrat govt jobs and with allies like Ram Vlilas paswan It is very difficult for him to remove quota system at India level.


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## he-man

Juggernautjatt said:


> Well I am not a pessimistic but Modi did nothing to decrease reservation in Gujrat govt jobs and with allies like Ram Vlilas paswan It is very difficult for him to remove quota system at India level.



As i said earlier.................there is reservation in parliament itself..............means it will never be done


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> change kar yaar,,,ali asgar sai tha
> please



Aab bata shi hai kya


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## IND151

Tejas Mk2 team targets 2017 for first flight | idrw.org


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Aab bata shi hai kya



nai yaar.....serious pics suck


----------



## Echo_419

he-man said:


> nai yaar.....serious pics suck



I was going for the RSS chadi wala or Hindu Baniya look


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> I was going for the RSS chadi wala or Hindu Baniya look


Ali asgar sai tha

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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Ali asgar sai tha



What do you think about Sumona ke papa aka Guthi


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## Juggernautjatt

Echo_419 said:


> What do you think about Sumona ke papa aka Guthi


If u are considering comedians then Lalu Yadav or Mulayam are best i think


----------



## Sergi

People spare the sticky thread. Just stay on topic.

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## Nitin Saini

Sergi said:


> People spare the sticky thread. Just stay on topic.





> HAL Chairman R K Tyagi said the production of LCA is on track with the creation of dedicated production division at HAL Bangalore.
> 
> “*We are aiming to roll-out 16 LCAs every year from the initial target of eight per year*. Having specific business partners on such an important project has been of great help



interesting thing in news...


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## Jayanta

IND151 said:


> Tejas Mk2 team targets 2017 for first flight | idrw.org



Don't worry in 2017 the HAL will give another date. Tejas to mila nehi...mili hai to bas tarikh pe tarikh, tarikh pe tarikh.

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## proud_indian




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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499602445882781696

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499601391745126400

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499600731377111041


----------



## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499600501877387264

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499600358843244544

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499600227163045889


----------



## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499599720008794113

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499599259641995264

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499599143887572992


----------



## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499597739999506433

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499597296665772033

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499596639258951682

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499595074309586944

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499594319628488705

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499593896700039168

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499593514527625217

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499593242518642688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499592903769878528

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499589416289964035

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499589157178470401

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499588556294090753

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## sancho

proud_indian said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/499588556294090753



Please don't just quote the statements, but also who made them. It's difficult to see, who said what and why, just by reading these short parts, without the source.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Kutte bhaukne lage!! LCA FOC ke baad suicide kar lenge.


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## Sahasranama

Was this round table sponsored by Dassault Rafale ?

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Please don't just quote the statements, but also who made them. It's difficult to see, who said what and why, just by reading these short parts, without the source.


 its from Video he posted in another thread. Its old you might have seen it. 
Tejas Mk2 team targets 2017 for first flight | Page 8


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## proud_indian

Sergi said:


> its from Video he posted in another thread. Its old you might have seen it.
> Tejas Mk2 team targets 2017 for first flight | Page 8


these are not old videos but the last two rounds of the round table confrence


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> its from Video he posted in another thread. Its old you might have seen it.
> Tejas Mk2 team targets 2017 for first flight | Page 8



Yes I know and I think it's still good to post the important statements here too, I just wanted him to post at least the names of the person who made the statement, to give us a better idea about who said what. For example:

Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran made the most important statements:


> The most important thing is, in the LCA program, we suffer from a national culture which I call – it flows from our caste culture system. Why? Because nowhere in the world, when designers are given certain tasks to design an aircraft and develop it, the interface between the user – user’s ability to convince and make him understand what he wants and what are the operational requirements so that the designer can choose the right design intent, is completely and interactive process. *Here, the scientific adviser will tell the air chief technology demonstration is my job – you’ve given me the ASR, now lay off – let me finish my technology demonstration program, then you come in – we will see thereafter. There’s the problem. Because it’s too late to come in and make changes...*
> 
> ...More importantly, I think *DRDO and the public sector spend more time on publicity events – on non-events. I said, stop all that. You know you have a pre-IOC, you have an IOC, you have a huge celebration – you actually keep announcing things – ‘we are the fourth country to achieve this’, ‘we are the fifth country to achieve this’ or ‘we are the third country to achieve this’ – where is the final product? Where is it going to see the operational utility? How about questioning that? Where are the timelines? Where is the cost accountability? *
> 
> This is what we need to question. We stop these public events, we stop these announcements for the rest of the world and if you think that we’re fooling the rest of the world – we’re fooling ourselves.




He couldn't be more correct, but he and other former IAF officials also corrected some of the public myth about the program problems, that we usually take to justify the problems:

*Myth: IAF changed the technical requirements which caused development delays*


> So the person who said there’s always been a conflict between HAL, DRDO and air force – there’s never been a change of stance of air force. Constantly, there’s an accusation that goalposts have been shifted by air force. *The ASR was approved with everybody involved in 1985 and there were two concessions given in 1989 – no other change has ever been made. It is their inability to conform the ASR, for a variety of reasons.* .


– Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran

*Myth: Development of LCA was delayed because of sudden sanctions after Kargil*


> When people talk about sanctions and delays – I was with the LCA program for about eight months, myself. And I used to hear this excuse every time that because of sanctions we lost it. Mr. Mishra will bear witness to this that when we were doing the bis-upgrade program; *even at that time in ’93 we anticipated American sanctions*. And therefore we kept away from American equipment – at that time. *How ADA didn’t foresee this – DRDO – that American will put sanctions on them, sometime or the other – particularly when one arm of the DRDO was tinkering with nukes at that time. They should have known that this would come. And they should have gone for different technology.* I also want to reiterate that we had opportunities at each stage to get the LCA going in a different direction and probably make it more of a success. We forsook those opportunities for some reasons or the other...


– Air Marshal (retd.) Harish Masand

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## SRP



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## Echo_419

desert warrior said:


>



Are these serial production aircraft


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Are these serial production aircraft



Nope, old picture of prototypes.


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## Agent_47

I watched all videos, And i have a very mixed feeling.
First, We got a clear picture about the thinking of top brass of IAF. Many myths are busted (like @sancho quoted ).
But at the same time it made me realized their way of thinking is not much different from ours,the keyboard warriors .
They said almost everything we complain about here, the Bigmouth/PR of DRDO,Importance of MMRCA,Budget availability,ToT problems, friction bw IAF and DRDO and co,lack of accountability, lack of two front doctrine etc. And they cry a lot just like we do here and make wishlist (like @Abingdonboy did last day  ) to fill dreams.
I have been wandering forums like this for last 3-4 years and i know enough of their problems already!. Then why cant a 1 lakh+ organisation change even the basics of the system to fulfill their need.? These people work their whole life trying change the system and fail miserably.
How can we call LCA /Kavari a mistake when it is still going on 25+ years ?
why are we so afraid of change ? why are we afraid of taking a decision ?
As George Varghese said at the end "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."

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## Sahasranama

Agent_47 said:


> I watched all videos, And i have a very mixed feeling.
> First, We got a clear picture about the thinking of top brass of IAF. Many myths are busted (like @sancho quoted ).
> But at the same time it made me realized their way of thinking is not much different from ours,the keyboard warriors .
> They said almost everything we complain about here, the Bigmouth/PR of DRDO,Importance of MMRCA,Budget availability,ToT problems, friction bw IAF and DRDO and co,lack of accountability, lack of two front doctrine etc. And they cry a lot just like we do here and make wishlist (like @Abingdonboy did last day  ) to fill dreams.
> I have been wandering forums like this for last 3-4 years and i know enough of their problems already!. Then why cant a 1 lakh+ organisation change even the basics of the system to fulfill their need.? These people work their whole life trying change the system and fail miserably.
> How can we call LCA /Kavari a mistake when it is still going on 25+ years ?
> why are we so afraid of change ? why are we afraid of taking a decision ?
> As George Varghese said at the end "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."



Exactly, the low level of discussion made me realize what we are dealing with. Seems hopeless. 

What I found interesting is there was NO representative from the DRDO, ADA or HAL.  ...........strange, don't you think ? ...they even had people from the media


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## Echo_419

[quote="Agent_47, post: 6058158, member: 41542"*]I watched all videos*, And i have a very mixed feeling.
First, We got a clear picture about the thinking of top brass of IAF. Many myths are busted (like @sancho quoted ).
But at the same time it made me realized their way of thinking is not much different from ours,the keyboard warriors .
They said almost everything we complain about here, the Bigmouth/PR of DRDO,Importance of MMRCA,Budget availability,ToT problems, friction bw IAF and DRDO and co,lack of accountability, lack of two front doctrine etc. And they cry a lot just like we do here and make wishlist (like @Abingdonboy did last day  ) to fill dreams.
I have been wandering forums like this for last 3-4 years and i know enough of their problems already!. Then why cant a 1 lakh+ organisation change even the basics of the system to fulfill their need.? These people work their whole life trying change the system and fail miserably.
How can we call LCA /Kavari a mistake when it is still going on 25+ years ?
why are we so afraid of change ? why are we afraid of taking a decision ?
As George Varghese said at the end "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."[/quote]

Damn hai bhai appme


----------



## gslv mk3

sancho said:


> Myth: Development of LCA was delayed because of sudden sanctions after Kargil



And we wen't for testing FBW on F 16 VISTA despite all this ?


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> why are we so afraid of change ? why are we afraid of taking a decision ?
> As George Varghese said at the end "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."



True, but only if you learn from your mistakes and improve yourself! The problem is, DRDO did a very bad job in the whole planing and management of this fighter project, but there is still no self reflection, not admitting of failures and a propper will to make things work. They simply want to switch to the next task, be it from LCA to AMCA or from Arjun to FMBT. And since MoD so far haven't showed any will to take ADA, DRDO or HAL accountable for failures, why should they change anyway?



gslv mk3 said:


> And we wen't for testing FBW on F 16 VISTA despite all this ?



Not despite, DRDO went for US consultancy before the sanctions and then had to delay things, because support was denied when sanctions were imposed.

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## Jayanta

Sahasranama said:


> Exactly, the low level of discussion made me realize what we are dealing with. Seems hopeless.
> 
> What I found interesting is there was NO representative from the DRDO, ADA or HAL.  ...........strange, don't you think ? ...they even had people from the media



DRDO, ADA aur HAL walo ko pata hai....k defence wale ...media k saamne unki bund phadne wale hai..isliye nehi jane mein hi bhalayi hai.

Like Air Marshal (retd) P.K. Barbora mentioned, the shit IAF is in today is because of the loud mouth DRDO...and other associates.


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> DRDO, ADA aur HAL walo ko pata hai....k defence wale ...media k saamne unki bund phadne wale hai..isliye nehi jane mein hi bhalayi hai.
> 
> Like Air Marshal (retd) P.K. Barbora mentioned, the shit IAF is in today is because of the loud mouth DRDO...and other associates.



These type of statements from IAF personals are just face saving measures from reality. As Modi ji said "Every department put the blame to another statement for failure rather than accepting his guilty." These statements from IAF are silly. like..
> One 3 star officer was stating that LCA never hit financial sanctions............... but question is how IAF can confirm this. Did IAF provide money from its fund to DRDO for LCA. Whole project is funded by DRDO itself by its own fund from GoI. Later IN also provide total 900 crore INR. You can see how DRDO's budget get sanctioned past decade.
> Another statement came that 'ADA said that let them put tech demonstrator and than give your requirement.' But isn't it was IAF which stated that they need Miraj2000 style fighter. SO isn't LCA is Miraj2000 type.
And if that is the case than why IAF forced ADA to change the design of AMCA, which already covered much path on drawing board even when they knew the inefficiency of ADA. Why they just let them go on their way?
>Another statement came that IAF don't need that much modern LCA, they just want LCA with analog FBW, simple radar etc but in 1998. But who will tell them that IAF wanted that because foreign countries were giving only those system while ADA took initiative and provide better sub-systems.
> Most funniest comment came from Naik after IOC that LCA is justMig21+++. That time whole world was laughing on us. But now everyone is laughing on him.

>> Now how many IAF personal stated about the fact why IAF didn't started LCA trials in 2008. How many times it was stated that LCA's induction was delayed because IAF put Jaguar's in factory which was funded by GoI for LCA.
>> Why anyone doesn't give clarification on Jaguar's upgrade when RAfale is near acceptance. Even when IAF was criticized by CAG. The fact was IAF wasted its money on mig27 type plane during past decade.
>> Not a single IAF personal told the profit and experience which was learnt.
>> DRDO should stop showcasing the thing like...(we are second on this). But isn't Indian military also show cased the things. Every year they wasted crores of rupees on parade like things. Parade is good in Rajpath, but like IA delivered 2-5 tanks to IMA for 15aug/24 jan. These tanks spend 3-4 days outside the gate of IMA just for showcase.


TAALI EK HATH SE NAHI BAJTI.

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## amygdaloideum

DPSU defenders,watch this and just shut up already


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## Water Car Engineer

New, good clip. The production line looks good.

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## nik22

Water Car Engineer said:


> New, good clip. The production line looks good.


looks like local channels are giving more coverage. I think national channels are sold out or Tejas is like hinduwadi (indigenous) and they want to be secular.

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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> New, good clip. The production line looks good.



Nice find, sadly still looks too empty.



nik22 said:


> looks like local channels are giving more coverage. I think national channels are sold out or Tejas is like hinduwadi (indigenous) and they want to be secular.



True, was kind of surprised how close she was able to move around the fighter, without having any official next to her. But although I didn't understand what she said, she seems to have been prepared and informed herself about the fighter, describing pretty much of the fighter.


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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> New, good clip. The production line looks good.



Goddamit,how am i suppose to understand this,koi translate kardo yaar & why isn't mainstream covering this


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## ANPP

HF-24 Marut

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] HF-24 Marut fighter-bomber was built in India, based on a design by Kurt Tank, famous for his Focke-Wulf aircraft built for Germany during WWII. The HF-24 Marut ["the wind"] represents the moderately successful attempt by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] to design and build a jet fighter. The Marut featured a small swept wing and excellent maneuverability. It had limited combat potential because of the low engine power, and could barely reach supersonic speeds in level flight.

The first prototype flew on June 17, 1961, with a total of 147 aircraft built, including 18 two-seat HF-24 Mk 1Ts. The fighter was eventually short-closed because of an under-powered engine and a lack of foresight. The Marut continued in service with the Indian Air Force until the aircraft was decommissioned in 1985. The Marut became emblematic of the Nehruvian emphasis on industrial and economic self-reliance, deemed especially important in the realms of defence industries. Next to Ashok's (B.C. 250) edicts at Girnar in Kathiawar and Sopara near Bassein in Thana, the Nana pass inscription is the oldest writing in Western India. It is believed to be the earliest historical record in the Deccan, and has the special interest of being the oldest known Brahmanical inscription in the whole of India. In the beginning salutations are offered to Vedic and Puranik gods, to Dharma and to Indra, to Chandra the moon, Surya the sun, Agni fire, and Marut wind, to the four region-guardians or lokapals who preside over the four quarters of the universe, Yama, Varuna, Kubera, and Vasava, and to Sankarshana Krishna's brother and Vasudeva or Krishna. India entered the aviation business rather late. Seth Lalchand Hirachand established Hindustan Aircraft Limited (HAL) only in 1942. HAL's initial effort was to overhaul aircraft; but after Independence there was a boom in activity. HAL's first ever indigenously designed and built aircraft was the HT-2 piston engined trainer that flew in the late forties. The HT-2 was designed by a team led by Dr. V M Ghatge. Under Dr V M Ghatage's leadership, HAL developed and test flew HT 72, an ab initio trainer, in 1950. A large number of light aircraft such as the Pushpak and Krishak were developed and manufactured. The troika of P Nilakantan, V M Ghatage and Satish Dhawan worked together on dozens of national aeronautical committees, and virtually wrote the country's aeronautical R&D agenda for the future. Ghatge held very strong views on the direction, level and pace at which the Indian aircraft industry should operate and these were at variance with those held by the policy makers of the day. His step-by-step approach to develop the day signified a definite stage in the design knowhow in the country did not find favor with government machinery as the operational arm of the defence services became more demanding and the ministry decided to rely heavily on licence production. In the late fifties, the Government of India approved the launch of fighter aircraft development. This project was, however, assigned to a German team under Kurt Tank and many of the Indian designers trained and nurtured by Ghatge were transferred to this project. This caused a kind of split in the design department. This was a source of great unhappiness to Ghatge since he had assiduously developed a design team to take on more challenging tasks under him as the years rolled on. Later on, an integrated design organization was restructured at HAL but by then Ghatge had left HAL. Dr. Kurt Tank, a contemporary of Willy Messerschmitt (the OTHER aviation genius of the twentieth century) was by far one of the most influential aircraft engineers to ever live. The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 is regarded as one of the best fighters of World War II. Designed by Kurt Tank, it first saw combat in the summer of 1941 and went on to be produced in several variants. At the end of WWII, Kurt Tank immigrated to Argentina. Like many other German technicians, Kurt Tank continued his professional life in Latin America. The Argentine Government offered him a job at its aerotechnical institute, the Instituto Aerotécnico in Cordoba. He moved there, like many of his Focke-Wulf co-workers, in 1947. The Instituto Aerotécnico later became Argentina's military aeroplane factory, the Fábrica Militar de Aviones. There, Kurt Tank designed the Iae Pulqui II based on the Focke Wulf Ta183 design that had reached mock-up stage at the end of the war. It was a state-of-the-art design for its day, but the project was cancelled in 1953 due to Argentina's financial crisis. He followed up this design with the IAe.43 Pulqui III. In January 1955 Kurt Tank's contract came to an end. He asked Argentine President Juan for an amount of money almost the double of what he had received under the former contract. Peron rejected that and Tank left. When Peron fell from power in 1955 the Focke-Wulf team dispersed, many to the United States. In 1956 the Indian Air Force's request for a homeproduced fighter/bomber - forcefully promoted by the late Air Marshal S. Mukherji - received the backing of the then Defence Minister, Mahavir Tyagi. Accordingly a design team, headed by Dr Kurt Tank, former technical director of Focke-Wulf, started work on the design of India's - and perhaps Asia's - first supersonic fighter aircraft. In 1957, Prof Kurt Tank was invited by the Government of India to join Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. Tank went to India with a smaller team than he worked with in Argentina, of eighteen German engineers and technicians, which number later dwindled to thirteen. The team initially consisted of 18 German engineers, three Indian senior design engineers and about 22 other Indian engineers with design experience. Given the small number of Germans in India, unlike the Argentinean experience, in India local engineers and technicians took responsibility for production engineering, tool design, and manufacturing activity leading to a successful international technology transfer. Within 22 months glider trials were started to test in free flight the full-scale wings and fuselage which had already been model-tested in wind tunnels. Low-speed behaviour was explored in the tunnel of the Indian Institute of Science at Bangalore. The staff had further been increased by this time, the design team having grown to 80 Indians with the same complement of Germans. Assembly of the first prototype was started in April 1960, and it was finished in 11 months - an excellent period considering that HAL were dealing with an aircraft of such advanced design for the first time. In the words of the Indian Government, "It speaks volumes for the enthusiasm and zeal of the production engineers and the workmen." In March 1961 the prototype, serial number BR462, was completed and ground trials were started. These trials are necessary to determine the ground handling qualities of a newly designed aircraft, and to check the functioning of various systems before undertaking the maiden flight. The latter came on June 24, 1961. The HF 24 Marut, was a twin engine fighter-bomber designed to reach supersonic speeds. A photograph of a wind tunnel model of IAe.43 Pulqui III makes it very clear that the Marut was based very closely upon that design. The Marut Mk1 Fighter of 1964 was a single seat ground attack fighter with 4X30 mm guns, internal rocket launchers 4 underwing hard points for drop tanks/bombs/rockets. The HF-24 had highly swept wings, a needle nose and a graceful, area-ruled fuselage. It incorporates many advanced aerodynamic concepts which make its flying safe and easy at low speeds as well as at supersonic speeds. While the elegant lines of the HF-24 Marut were clearly seen, the full potential of this exquisite design was never realised owing to under-powered engines.Power was provided by a pair of Bristol Siddeley Orpheus 703 turbojets, manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aircraft Ltd. HAL's Aero Engine Division were the first organization in Asia - outside the Communist countries - to manufacture an aircraft gas-turbine. The Orpheus licence was concluded in September 1956, when the Indian Government also procured a licence for the manufacture of the Folland Gnat Mk 1 fighter. The Gnat Mk 1 engine is the Orpheus 701, rated at 4,7001b thrust, and identical to the British-built unit. HAL's engine factory was completed early in 1959, the first Orpheus 701 came off the line on November 21, 1960, and type approval was granted by the Indian Defence Ministry nine months later. Discussions between Bristol Siddeley and the Indian Government were held in 1960 and 1961 with a view to completing development of the Orpheus 12, or of continuing development of the much later BS.75 turbofan as a possible HF-24 powerplant. These talks did not lead to a satisfactory conclusion. In 1961 the Soviet Government was approached to investigate the possibility of fitting the HF-24 with a Russian powerplant. Six RD-9F turbojets were imported by the Indian Government in 1961 and bench-tested in that year and in 1962. Ultimately it was concluded that these engines would not be the best answer. One reason for the decision was the fact that the development potential of the RD-9F could not be extended beyond about Mach 1.5 without changes in materials and other specifications, whereas the HF-24 was regarded as potentially a Mach 2 aircraft. Another reason was that the Indians found it impossible to obtain from the Soviet Union the necessary level of detailed information on manufacturing the RD-9F without which they could not have produced it themselves. By 1963 the decision had been taken to adhere to the Orpheus 703 engine as the basic powerplant of the Maruta Mk 1, but to do everything possible to increase its performance. The Orpheus 703 reheat made use of Bristol Siddeley techniques and advice, but was basically a product of HAL's Engine Division and reflects that organization's steadily growing self-sufficiency. The Orpheus 703 Reheat, as the engine is known, had a maximum rating in the 6,500 to 7,0001b class. A three-squadron batch of the just-supersonic Maruta Mkl ground attacker was built with Hindustan-made Orpheus 703R engines, with an afterburner of HAL design. The Government was unwilling to sanction Rs 5 crores to Bristol Siddeley for development of the afterburning follow-on engine to the Orpheus 703 as its power plant. In 1964 an Indian mission visited Cairo to assist in the flight testing of the Egyptian E-300 turbojet, developed by a team under the Austrian Prof Ferdinand Brandner, for the indigenous HA-300 fighter. Indian assistance centered on the supply of a Hindustan HF-24 Maruta airframe for flight testing the E-300. The Indian Government was interested in the Brandner engine as a possible powerplant for the planned supersonic Maruta Mk2. By late 1964 there were reports that an agreement had been signed whereby the two countries will jointly produce a supersonic fighter. India would make the airframes and the UAR the engines. It would not appear illogical for the combination to be continued in production, as the Indian airframe is more capable than the UAR's HA-300. The HF-24 could not achieve its designed performance without a more powerful engine, causing serious setback to the fighter's development and for that matter, the future of developing a substantially self reliant aircraft industry. In this situation, the Air Force continued to buy outright or take up licenced production (through HAL) of aircraft needed by them. Delay in availability of the HAL-designed HF-24 Marut for the ground attack fighter mission led, in 1966, to the IAF evaluating and the Government purchasing the Sukhoi Su-7BM, deliveries of which from the Soviet Union were to commence in March 1968, with No.26 Squadron being the first of a half-dozen squadrons that were to operate the type. Numerically predominating in the fighter inventory by 1968 was the Gnat, equipping eight squadrons; six squadrons were equipped with the Hunter, a further four on the MiG-21FL and two on the Mystere IVA. Two squadrons fulfilled the photo-recce fighter role with adapted Vampire T Mk. 55s and one squadron was operating the HF-24 Marut. The first of the production Marut trainers on order was delivered to the IAF by late November 1974. The tandem-seating HF-24 Mk.1T trainer could well have fulfilled the advanced jet training requirement of the IAF. The Mk.II prototypes had completed all flight testing required (over 300 test flights) by the end of 1974. The HF-24 Mk-II proposal was virtually rejected by 1974, as the Indian Air Force had not confirmed its initial interest in the afterburning Orpheus 703. HAL have submitted proposals for the Mark III, or HF-73, and this aircraft would reportedly exhaust the growth potential of the HF-24. The HF-73 would have maximum hardware commonality with the HF-24 and if GOI sanction is received within 1974, the aircraft was envisaged as entering squadron service in 1981-2. Given the limited number of Marut units, most Marut squadrons were considerably over-strength for the duration of their lives. According to Brian de Magray, at peak strength No.10 Squadron had on charge 32 Maruts, although the squadron probably did not hold a unit-establishment of more than 16. All in all, the Marut squadrons acquitted themselves very well in the 1971 war. The Marut, as an aircraft, was shown to be tough and capable. No aircraft were ever lost in air-to-air combat. However, 4 were lost to ground fire and two were lost on the ground. The Maruts were in the thick of it, right through the fighting on the western front, and the Squadrons ended the war with a total of three Vir Chakras. The next requirement to be met in the mid-1970s was for a Tactical Air Strike Aircraft (TASA). With the various development programs to enhance the operational performance of the HF-24 Marut by HAL abandoned for one reason or the other, the Government of India concluded an agreement with the Soviet Union for the MiG-23 variable-sweep fighter. Four squadrons, then flying the HF-24 and Sukhoi Su-7 were re-equipped with the MiG-23BN and induction into IAF service of this swing-wing fighter. Development of the HF-24 underlined the importance of developing engines as an essential precursor for fighter aircraft development. One of the consequences of the HF-24 development program was the awareness that if India did not have a strong R&D base, it would not be possible to achieve any self-reliance. This awareness resulted during the late 1950s in creation of the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DR&DO), as also the National Aeronautical Laboratories (NAL) under the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), being the R&D organisations to back aircraft development activities in HAL. Along with development of the HF-24 was proceeding under Kurt Tank, HAL took on the concurrent responsibility for design, development and series production of the jet trainer HJT-16 Kiran. This was the first major attempt made by HAL to design and develop a jet aircraft on its own without any foreign assistance in its design. As the sixties translated to the seventies, the IAF consolidated its expansion plans, attaining its 45-squadron goal. Obsolescent equipment was steadily withdrawn to be succeeded by increasing numbers of HF-24s, MiG-21FLs and SU-7BMs. Indian planners anticipated that any future war with Pakistan would be a high-intensity, short-duration affair (partly because of diplomatic intervention by third parties). Consequently, the IAF developed a powerful tactical strike force to facilitate rapid advances by ground elements. Offensive air support would be furnished by MiG-23BN and MiG-27 squadrons, augmented by the MiG-21M Fishbed-J and Ajeet (an upgraded version of the British Gnat). As of the mid-1980s aging Hawker Hunter Mk 56 and Sukhoi Su-7 fighter-bombers were being removed from the inventory. The HF-24 Marut served until 1985. The various development programs to enhance the operational performance of the HF-24 Marut by HAL were abandoned for one reason or the other. The Government of India concluded an agreement with the Soviet Union for the MiG-23 variable-sweep fighter to meet the Tactical Air Strike Aircraft (TASA) requirement. Four squadrons, then flying the HF-24 and Sukhoi Su-7 were re-equipped with the MiG-23BN. Initiating an indigenous design and development of an aircraft or a helicopter requires large amount of funds. It is not feasible for HAL to initiate a major project without the firming up of specification and requirement by the domestic customer and funding by the customer/Government. HAL was not entrusted with any major new design and development project of fighter aircraft after the HF-24 (Marut). Developmental activity resumed only in the 1980's.


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## ANPP

A VERY GOOD ARTICLE-must read

Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas

The flight control system is a digital, quadruplex redundant fullauthority system exercising control through two sets of paired elevons and a singlerudder. The stability and control cycle is updated every 12.5 milli secs through highfidelity, rate and acceleration sensors and high rate control actuators.

Theregion from 0.5M to 0.7M and from 3Km to 8 Km is the zone of the highest instabilitywith time to double amplitude dropping to 200 milli secs. This implies that anydisturbance in pitch would cause an increase in amplitude by 32 times in a sec

Wind tunnel experiments haveindicated that CL max continues to improve till approx 35 deg AOA.

Fortunately as shown in fig-6, the LCA has significant rudder authority (CYM-Del R) even up to 30 deg.
AoA that will allow artificial stabilization in yaw at high AoA.

A VERY GOOD ARTICLE-must read

Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas

The flight control system is a digital, quadruplex redundant fullauthority system exercising control through two sets of paired elevons and a singlerudder. The stability and control cycle is updated every 12.5 milli secs through highfidelity, rate and acceleration sensors and high rate control actuators.

Theregion from 0.5M to 0.7M and from 3Km to 8 Km is the zone of the highest instabilitywith time to double amplitude dropping to 200 milli secs. This implies that anydisturbance in pitch would cause an increase in amplitude by 32 times in a sec

Wind tunnel experiments haveindicated that CL max continues to improve till approx 35 deg AOA.

Fortunately as shown in fig-6, the LCA has significant rudder authority (CYM-Del R) even up to 30 deg.
AoA that will allow artificial stabilization in yaw at high AoA.

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## sudhir007

Water Car Engineer said:


> New, good clip. The production line looks good.


lca Tejas SP-1 flight next month ?? | idrw.org





_Tv Grab of SP-1 from the report _

According to a report prepared by local kannada news channel TV-9, First SP-1 will be handed over to IAF next month and HAL / ADA will start flight test for FOC Certification from next months too , But Sp-1 shown seems far from ready to even have its first flight next month let alone been handed over to IAF .

SP-1 has been shown with engine and landing gears integrated and avionics in cockpit too seems to be in place but aircraft is seen without radar / Ejection seat and lot of wires and cables just hanging around , Reporter claimed first Aircraft will be handed over to IAF next month , but as per procedures , aircraft first needs to carry out few low speed and high speed taxi trials before first flight could be carried out .

Well if they are aiming for first flight next month then lets see if they can keep their words . While reporters also informed that few Asian countries have shown interest in LCA Tejas Trainer aircraft has informed to them by HAL but did not disclose names of countries who have contacted HAL . Well thats pretty much standard answers HAL gives out to Unsuspecting reporters on Export potentials and idrw.org too had heared such reports in the past , but Interest alone doesn’t get you orders .

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## ejaz007

*LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*

*Latest Update:*

Industrial efforts aim to boost local production percentage, deepen India’s aerospace base.

*Aug 17/14: Industrial.* HAL and DRDO’s ADA are trying to encourage more small and mid-size manufacturers to make parts for the aircraft:

“They aim to raise the LCA’s indigenous content to 80 per cent in three years, up from the present 50 to 55 per cent…. HAL Chairman R.K. Tyagi told them that starting 2015–16, “we aim to roll out 16 LCAs every year, [increasing] from the initial target of eight a year”.

Currently, 168 of the 344 LCA components are made in the country.

A key defence scientist involved in the programme said HAL and ADA would help manufacturers to pick up at least 10 more simple components and offer the use of government-owned manufacturing and test facilities.”

If they can do that while maintaining quality, and pick manufacturers who are capable of further innovation, they would make future upgrades easier. More local content would also reduce cost shifts based on currency exchange rates, and create a wider base for future programs like the Su-50/FGFA. The bad news? This falls into the “simple, but not easy” category. Sources: The Hindu, “A few small production pushes for LCA”.

LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help


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## Agent_47

> _* HAL and DRDO deciding to bring to bear the full might of their resources on the LCA Mk.2*, the variant of the indigenous aircraft that will see combat service, unlike the 40 Mk.1s.* It has become increasingly clear that two squadrons of LCA Mk.1s will be employed as advanced/lead-in jet trainers, a psychological blow to the programme, but a practical one according to the IAF, which only sees operational sense in looking more closely at the Mk.2*, powered by an F414 engine. _
> 
> Source: 5th generation AMCA on backburner


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## Echo_419

sudhir007 said:


> lca Tejas SP-1 flight next month ?? | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Tv Grab of SP-1 from the report _
> 
> According to a report prepared by local kannada news channel TV-9, First SP-1 will be handed over to IAF next month and HAL / ADA will start flight test for FOC Certification from next months too , But Sp-1 shown seems far from ready to even have its first flight next month let alone been handed over to IAF .
> 
> SP-1 has been shown with engine and landing gears integrated and avionics in cockpit too seems to be in place but aircraft is seen without radar / Ejection seat and lot of wires and cables just hanging around , Reporter claimed first Aircraft will be handed over to IAF next month , but as per procedures , aircraft first needs to carry out few low speed and high speed taxi trials before first flight could be carried out .
> 
> Well if they are aiming for first flight next month then lets see if they can keep their words . While reporters also informed that few Asian countries have shown interest in LCA Tejas Trainer aircraft has informed to them by HAL but did not disclose names of countries who have contacted HAL . Well thats pretty much standard answers HAL gives out to Unsuspecting reporters on Export potentials and idrw.org too had heared such reports in the past , but Interest alone doesn’t get you orders .



Bhagwaan ke liye Delay maat kar dena yaar


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## Jayanta

Echo_419 said:


> Bhagwaan ke liye Delay maat kar dena yaar



This was supposed to fly in 2012.....btw when HAL says 1 month....iska matlab hai 6 month. I month of working day....8 hrs/day and 5 days/week....so the maths is 3 din mein 24 hrs..... aur Is hisab se 1 month actually 6 months hote hai.

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## drunken-monke

NEW DELHI: The "Chalta Hai" attitude will no longer do. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has directed the DRDO to ensure delivery of cutting-edge weapon systems to the armed forces in time to keep India ahead in the national security arena.

Though the stern message was couched in mild language, the intent behind it could not be lost. Most of DRDO projects, ranging from Tejas light combat aircraft to long-range surface-to-air missile systems, after all, are running years behind schedule with huge cost overruns.

*READ ALSO: Ten key DRDO projects delayed, Arun Jaitley says*

The fact that India, which aspires to be a superpower, still embarrassingly imports over 65% of its military requirements is basically due to failure of successive governments to build a strong domestic defence-industrial base (DIB) as well as tardy performance of DRDO and its 50 labs, five defence PSUs, four shipyards and 39 ordnance factories.

India does not lack the requisite scientific talent and capability but this "chalta hai" attitude (lackadaisical) has put paid to all endeavours, said Modi at the annual DRDO awards function on Wednesday.

"The world will not wait for us. We have to run ahead of time. We should not say in 2014 that a project conceived in 1992 will take some more time," said Modi. With defence technology evolving at a rapid rate around the globe, India cannot afford to conceptualize systems that are two steps behind what will soon hit the market.

"DRDO has to decide whether it will only react to the situation, or become pro-active and set the agenda for the global community. I have hopes from DRDO because I know it has the capability to perform," said Modi.

Defence minister Arun Jaitley also stressed that defence scientists had the "intellectual talent" to turn DRDO into "a hub for defence manufacturing" if they worked towards it in the right earnest.

But this might take some doing. For one, DRDO wants more funds for R&D. For another, though it has over 7,500 scientists on its rolls, it wants to attract bright youngsters from top-notch institutions like the IITs with better incentives.

*Blog: Modi's push for out-of-box thinking in defence research should shake DRDO out of its stupor*

"Our intake of young scientists is down to just 70 per year. This is certainly not a good sign for an innovation-centric organization. Sanction of additional manpower at the rate of 300 per year for the next seven-eight years is essential for meeting technology challenges," said DRDO chief Avinash Chander.

But it's equally true that DRDO itself needs to be revamped and reformed. As reported by TOI earlier, the Rama Rao Committee (RRC) in 2008 held DRDO should focus only on 8 to 10 "critical technologies'' of "strategic importance'', instead of making everything from dental implants and mosquito repellents to nuclear missiles and fighter jets.

Two key RRC recommendations, for instance, to establish a new Defence Technology Commission and a commercial arm for DRDO (as a private limited company with Rs 2 crore as seed capital) are yet to be implemented.

World won’t wait for you, PM Narendra Modi tells laggard DRDO - The Times of India

Modi also mentioned about the project which started in 1992 and even in 2014 its yet to get completed, which is not going to be tolerated anymore.. He was referring to the project Tejas.. He questioned the attitude of DRDO and viability of such planning.. He asked to plan accordinly to stay in competion with other nations and not to lagg behind.. He even asked DRDO to be proactive rather than reactive....

@sancho @ANPP your views on this please....

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## ANPP

drunken-monke said:


> NEW DELHI: The "Chalta Hai" attitude will no longer do. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has directed the DRDO to ensure delivery of cutting-edge weapon systems to the armed forces in time to keep India ahead in the national security arena.
> 
> Though the stern message was couched in mild language, the intent behind it could not be lost. Most of DRDO projects, ranging from Tejas light combat aircraft to long-range surface-to-air missile systems, after all, are running years behind schedule with huge cost overruns.
> 
> *READ ALSO: Ten key DRDO projects delayed, Arun Jaitley says*
> 
> The fact that India, which aspires to be a superpower, still embarrassingly imports over 65% of its military requirements is basically due to failure of successive governments to build a strong domestic defence-industrial base (DIB) as well as tardy performance of DRDO and its 50 labs, five defence PSUs, four shipyards and 39 ordnance factories.
> 
> India does not lack the requisite scientific talent and capability but this "chalta hai" attitude (lackadaisical) has put paid to all endeavours, said Modi at the annual DRDO awards function on Wednesday.
> 
> "The world will not wait for us. We have to run ahead of time. We should not say in 2014 that a project conceived in 1992 will take some more time," said Modi. With defence technology evolving at a rapid rate around the globe, India cannot afford to conceptualize systems that are two steps behind what will soon hit the market.
> 
> "DRDO has to decide whether it will only react to the situation, or become pro-active and set the agenda for the global community. I have hopes from DRDO because I know it has the capability to perform," said Modi.
> 
> Defence minister Arun Jaitley also stressed that defence scientists had the "intellectual talent" to turn DRDO into "a hub for defence manufacturing" if they worked towards it in the right earnest.
> 
> But this might take some doing. For one, DRDO wants more funds for R&D. For another, though it has over 7,500 scientists on its rolls, it wants to attract bright youngsters from top-notch institutions like the IITs with better incentives.
> 
> *Blog: Modi's push for out-of-box thinking in defence research should shake DRDO out of its stupor*
> 
> "Our intake of young scientists is down to just 70 per year. This is certainly not a good sign for an innovation-centric organization. Sanction of additional manpower at the rate of 300 per year for the next seven-eight years is essential for meeting technology challenges," said DRDO chief Avinash Chander.
> 
> But it's equally true that DRDO itself needs to be revamped and reformed. As reported by TOI earlier, the Rama Rao Committee (RRC) in 2008 held DRDO should focus only on 8 to 10 "critical technologies'' of "strategic importance'', instead of making everything from dental implants and mosquito repellents to nuclear missiles and fighter jets.
> 
> Two key RRC recommendations, for instance, to establish a new Defence Technology Commission and a commercial arm for DRDO (as a private limited company with Rs 2 crore as seed capital) are yet to be implemented.
> 
> World won’t wait for you, PM Narendra Modi tells laggard DRDO - The Times of India
> 
> Modi also mentioned about the project which started in 1992 and even in 2014 its yet to get completed, which is not going to be tolerated anymore.. He was referring to the project Tejas.. He questioned the attitude of DRDO and viability of such planning.. He asked to plan accordinly to stay in competion with other nations and not to lagg behind.. He even asked DRDO to be proactive rather than reactive....
> 
> @sancho @ANPP your views on this please....


 
I am hoping that the political pressure which is been put on DRDO will change their work culture.
I can't remember that any P.M. insulted DRDO or scientific community of India so diplomatically in front of media before Modi.
But this also giving us a little insider story of MoD. While MoD is pressuring IAF for lca, IAF is rejecting lca on the basis of technical terms as it will decrease IAF's over allegedly fighting capability. It is not new that RSS is pro-nationalist organisation so the BJP. LCA could be their main agenda. The thing is clear mass order of lca will kill Rafale vice-versa.

But one sign which Made di clearly gave last day that if lca would not ready for induction in IAF by 2018t than would be taken as cancel by default.


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## Echo_419

drunken-monke said:


> NEW DELHI: The "Chalta Hai" attitude will no longer do. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has directed the DRDO to ensure delivery of cutting-edge weapon systems to the armed forces in time to keep India ahead in the national security arena.
> 
> Though the stern message was couched in mild language, the intent behind it could not be lost. Most of DRDO projects, ranging from Tejas light combat aircraft to long-range surface-to-air missile systems, after all, are running years behind schedule with huge cost overruns.
> 
> *READ ALSO: Ten key DRDO projects delayed, Arun Jaitley says*
> 
> The fact that India, which aspires to be a superpower, still embarrassingly imports over 65% of its military requirements is basically due to failure of successive governments to build a strong domestic defence-industrial base (DIB) as well as tardy performance of DRDO and its 50 labs, five defence PSUs, four shipyards and 39 ordnance factories.
> 
> India does not lack the requisite scientific talent and capability but this "chalta hai" attitude (lackadaisical) has put paid to all endeavours, said Modi at the annual DRDO awards function on Wednesday.
> 
> "The world will not wait for us. We have to run ahead of time. We should not say in 2014 that a project conceived in 1992 will take some more time," said Modi. With defence technology evolving at a rapid rate around the globe, India cannot afford to conceptualize systems that are two steps behind what will soon hit the market.
> 
> "DRDO has to decide whether it will only react to the situation, or become pro-active and set the agenda for the global community. I have hopes from DRDO because I know it has the capability to perform," said Modi.
> 
> Defence minister Arun Jaitley also stressed that defence scientists had the "intellectual talent" to turn DRDO into "a hub for defence manufacturing" if they worked towards it in the right earnest.
> 
> But this might take some doing. For one, DRDO wants more funds for R&D. For another, though it has over 7,500 scientists on its rolls, it wants to attract bright youngsters from top-notch institutions like the IITs with better incentives.
> 
> *Blog: Modi's push for out-of-box thinking in defence research should shake DRDO out of its stupor*
> 
> "Our intake of young scientists is down to just 70 per year. This is certainly not a good sign for an innovation-centric organization. Sanction of additional manpower at the rate of 300 per year for the next seven-eight years is essential for meeting technology challenges," said DRDO chief Avinash Chander.
> 
> But it's equally true that DRDO itself needs to be revamped and reformed. As reported by TOI earlier, the Rama Rao Committee (RRC) in 2008 held DRDO should focus only on 8 to 10 "critical technologies'' of "strategic importance'', instead of making everything from dental implants and mosquito repellents to nuclear missiles and fighter jets.
> 
> Two key RRC recommendations, for instance, to establish a new Defence Technology Commission and a commercial arm for DRDO (as a private limited company with Rs 2 crore as seed capital) are yet to be implemented.
> 
> World won’t wait for you, PM Narendra Modi tells laggard DRDO - The Times of India
> 
> Modi also mentioned about the project which started in 1992 and even in 2014 its yet to get completed, which is not going to be tolerated anymore.. He was referring to the project Tejas.. He questioned the attitude of DRDO and viability of such planning.. He asked to plan accordinly to stay in competion with other nations and not to lagg behind.. He even asked DRDO to be proactive rather than reactive....
> 
> @sancho @ANPP your views on this please....



Hope reforms also follow soon,modi govt seems keen to be build our Defense Capabilities


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## drunken-monke

ANPP said:


> I am hoping that the political pressure which is been put on DRDO will change their work culture.
> I can't remember that any P.M. insulted DRDO or scientific community of India so diplomatically in front of media before Modi.
> But this also giving us a little insider story of MoD. While MoD is pressuring IAF for lca, IAF is rejecting lca on the basis of technical terms as it will decrease IAF's over allegedly fighting capability. It is not new that RSS is pro-nationalist organisation so the BJP. LCA could be their main agenda. The thing is clear mass order of lca will kill Rafale vice-versa.
> 
> But one sign which Made di clearly gave last day that if lca would not ready for induction in IAF by 2018t than would be taken as cancel by default.


I would consider this as a threat (to replace the scientist) rather than insult by the PM...

The points which you have raised as apparently correct to a certain extent, but there are possibilities beyond that.. In one of your post you have already stated that IAF has three tier system for the Fighter jets... Here one thing to be taken into consideration, and that is IAFs major chunk of inventory is comprised of obsolete Mig 21.. Neither MMRCA (am still skeptical about rafale being the one considering age old delays even in the procurement) nor the PAKFA/FGFA would make up for the numbers.. when we look at the 2020 senario, IAF needs replacement of Mig 21, Mig 27, Jaguars.... Even by 2025-28 Mig 29 and M2k would start to be phased out. So, MKI, MMRCA, PAKFA/FGFA would make top and mid level fighters totaling 550 fighters roughly... What about the lower end fighter.. We require nearly 120-150 of those for point defense and CAP role.. Many are arguing that mmrca would kill LCA.. I beg to differ.. Both has different purpose (certainly due to difference in cost)... and are required for the national security..

What we missed in the LCA development process, approach like PAF.. They inducted JF17 in PAF and also evolving simultaneously it.. Their air force was/is involved in fighter development unlike ours...

So, on one hand we require those foreign mall, at the same time need desi ones which would bloster self reliance for now and pave way for future development... And for that, sometimes you require harsh decision and/or even threatening...


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## sancho

drunken-monke said:


> Though the stern message was couched in mild languag, the intent behind it could not be lost.



By the lack of a propper defence minister, this "mild" statement is welcomed, but still is far too less. Propper reform of the project management, stronger focus on working WITH and not against the forces and more accountablility are necessary, otherwise nothing will change. Lets see if this is just a PR statement, or if the new government will actually do something to improve the indigenous aero sector.

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## sancho

drunken-monke said:


> We require nearly 120-150 of those for point defense and CAP role...



That's pretty much the number of LCAs we will get at the end, but by the time they are inducted, warfar and technology has moved on. Roles like recon or CAS will be done by Rustom H, at cheaper unit and per hour costs, with more performance. That hardly leaves basic air policing left for LCA and since it will be the most cost-effective solution in the fleet, it will be the first choice, but that also limits it's importance for the future. IAF is clear that they put their focus on FGFA and drones in future.




drunken-monke said:


> What we missed in the LCA development process is, approach like PAF.. They inducted JF17 in PAF and also evolving simultaneously it.. Their air force was/is involved in fighter development unlike ours...



They even lead the development for the Pakistani side, but mainly by the lack of industrial / development alternatives. We have such with ADA, DRDO and HAL, but instead of working together for the same aim, they actually worked against each other to get their share of importance. DRDO constantly wants to take control, therefor kept IAF out and HAL small. ADA wants control over design, without HAL being a part, not to mention that we made everything more complicated than it needed to be. Especially DRDO is grown too big and needs to get slamed to the ground again. That requires a tough stand of the MoD and propper changes in the way we take on these developments. Let IAF head them, as IN does, let the actual manufacturer be responsible for the project management, be it HAL or a privat partner and not developers like DRDO. Make it simple and use the benefits of off the shelf foreign parts...

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## sancho

> *4 Defence Scientists Receive DRDO Award *
> 
> Four defence scientists from the city were among the recipients of DRDO Awards-2013 presented by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi on Wednesday.
> The ‘*Performance Excellence* Award’ was given to P S Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Dr K Tamilmani, former Chief Executive, Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification.
> 
> The duo and their respective teams were selected for this top award *for their contribution in the design, development and certification of the Tejas aircraft*...



4 Defence Scientists Receive DRDO Award -The New Indian Express


 I think the PM has countered himself with that.


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## ANPP

drunken-monke said:


> I would consider this as a threat (to replace the scientist) rather than insult by the PM...
> 
> The points which you have raised as apparently correct to a certain extent, but there are possibilities beyond that.. In one of your post you have already stated that IAF has three tier system for the Fighter jets... Here one thing to be taken into consideration, and that is IAFs major chunk of inventory is comprised of obsolete Mig 21.. Neither MMRCA (am still skeptical about rafale being the one considering age old delays even in the procurement) nor the PAKFA/FGFA would make up for the numbers.. when we look at the 2020 senario, IAF needs replacement of Mig 21, Mig 27, Jaguars.... Even by 2025-28 Mig 29 and M2k would start to be phased out. So, MKI, MMRCA, PAKFA/FGFA would make top and mid level fighters totaling 550 fighters roughly... What about the lower end fighter.. We require nearly 120-150 of those for point defense and CAP role.. Many are arguing that mmrca would kill LCA.. I beg to differ.. Both has different purpose (certainly due to difference in cost)... and are required for the national security..
> 
> What we missed in the LCA development process, approach like PAF.. They inducted JF17 in PAF and also evolving simultaneously it.. Their air force was/is involved in fighter development unlike ours...
> 
> So, on one hand we require those foreign mall, at the same time need desi ones which would bloster self reliance for now and pave way for future development... And for that, sometimes you require harsh decision and/or even threatening...


 
129 is the number of LCA which IAF wants. Now see 2030 scenerio........

18 sqdrn of mki
6 sqdrn of lca upto order
8 sqdrn of Rafale

That's total 32 sqdn of maximum 44.5

Probably we will think about mig29 replacement that time but miraj will be used by that time. Because upgradation schedule of miraj is upto 2024. So 2 sqdrn of miraj will serve beyond that time and that's why I am questioning on this deal over lca's purchase.
Hence 34 sqdrn definite. Now don't forget FGFA, so far 144 order. If we follow mki style than we would have total 6-7 sqdn atleast. These makes 38-39 sqdrns total.

All fighters like mki, Rafale and FGFA are money hungry fighters. And I never say that there is three class fighters in IAF. Air forces usually operate mix of high/low mix. And IAF have plans of using all high level fighters. That's why I am saying that LCA cannot live with mmrca. We have to chose one from them.

And 130 is not good number for LCA, as it is Indian fighter. Tell me where in world indegenious consist of less than 20% of force.


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## Abingdonboy

ANPP said:


> 129 is the number of LCA which IAF wants. Now see 2030 scenerio........
> 
> And 130 is not good number for LCA, as it is Indian fighter. Tell me where in world indegenious consist of less than 20% of force.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491832892280958977


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## ANPP

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491832892280958977


 
For that we have to wait till 2018, but if we buy them in 200 + numbers than that's good. But from where he got this information is also in question. May be he get it from South Block. You did hear the IAF's retired personals how they were forcing to cancel the LCA.

AMCA will get speed from 2014-15, that was well know. It is the time when AMCA will come out from drawing boards and will get real shape. As its first TD was scheduled in 2017. But same time listen the IAF, they send clear message to HAL to concern on FGFA. As they want good share of work in it and schedule to induct in 2020. They don't want miss the deadlines in case of FGFA. That will delay AMCA's initial TDs. In over all project will be delayed.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> 4 Defence Scientists Receive DRDO Award -The New Indian Express
> 
> 
> I think the PM has countered himself with that.


Bro.Giving award to deserving is not an bad idea actually to motivate the team.


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## proud_indian

ANPP said:


> For that we have to wait till 2018, but if we buy them in 200 + numbers than that's good. But from where he got this information is also in question. May be he get it from South Block. You did hear the IAF's retired personals how they were forcing to cancel the LCA.
> 
> AMCA will get speed from 2014-15, that was well know. It is the time when AMCA will come out from drawing boards and will get real shape. As its first TD was scheduled in 2017. But same time listen the IAF, they send clear message to HAL to concern on FGFA. As they want good share of work in it and schedule to induct in 2020. They don't want miss the deadlines in case of FGFA. That will delay AMCA's initial TDs. In over all project will be delayed.



he is a informed guy. He will soon publish his latest interview with Dr. Avinash Chandra. and corresponding videos on youtube. There you can find answers to some of your questions. And by the way he posted the image of INS ARIHANT in may what NDTV yesterday published.


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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Bro.Giving award to *deserving* is not an bad idea actually to motivate the team.



"Deserving"!!! Giving an award to people who messed up so much and that even for exactly the project that the PM actually asked them to provide earlier is just laughable and for sure not motivating at all.


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## sancho

proud_indian said:


> he is a informed guy.



He might be informed, but as in the C17 issue recently, he propably is talking about old / total requirements. IAF will not buy 200 x LCAs, simply by the fact that it would take far too long to produce it. Even the initial 40 + 80 order is not expected to be available before 2022 and by a time, when the 126 MMRCAs could be in the final delivery stage, which means going for the optionals and inducting them at the same time as the LCA MK2 that are now on order makes more sense, then waiting longer just to add more LCAs that also are far less capable. And as I said before, in exactly that time IAF will also induct FGFA, Rustom H and maybe is even close to Aura and in the development of AMCA. LCA simply has the wrong timing now, which puts it in far too much competition and with far too less capability to justify that numbers. The total LCA procurements, including N-LCAs could be around 200 and maybe even the 2 x MK1 squads might be replaced with propper MK2 squads, but that still doesn't get it to 200 in IAF.


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## ANPP

proud_indian said:


> he is a informed guy. He will soon publish his latest interview with Dr. Avinash Chandra. and corresponding videos on youtube. There you can find answers to some of your questions. And by the way he posted the image of INS ARIHANT in may what NDTV yesterday published.


 
Than I think I dont any reasonable point to oppose the mmrca deal. I hope that he is right.


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## proud_indian

ANPP said:


> Than I think I dont any reasonable point to oppose the mmrca deal. I hope that he is right.



Why do you oppose MMRCA anyway?


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> "Deserving"!!! Giving an award to people who messed up so much and that even for exactly the project that the PM actually asked them to provide earlier is just laughable and for sure not motivating at all.


Going by your idea is disastrous for any nation institute,PM asked the whole DRDO to get their act together but that doesn't make individual contributor less credible.There are people who worked upon specific equipment for LCA, Arjun or Naval Ships at good time frame and in a very efficient way.


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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Going by your idea is disastrous for any nation institute,PM asked the whole DRDO to get their act together but that doesn't make individual contributor less credible.



And we all know which development he meant, so it's completely pointless to criticize them for the delayed delivery (which is actually the right thing to do and he should have done it much stronger), but at the same time give them an award for:
*



"for their contribution in the design, development and certification of the Tejas aircraft

Click to expand...

*
Not for Arjun, ships or other things, but EXACTLY those things at LCA he wanted to urge DRDO to do better. LCA is suffering from designs flaws, it's development and certification is delayed for years, development of it's subsystems even failed and they give them an award? That is not only making the PM look bad, but also makes this award worthless, if they don't actually give them for people and projects that actually would deserve it. This is just another chance for DRDO to celebrate itself and do as if they have achieved something, when they still haven't!
It's like awarding HAL for the design and development of IJT, when it has major problems, is delayed and still not useful for the forces. Would be just as pointless don't you think?


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> And we all know which development he meant, so it's completely pointless to criticize them for the delayed delivery (which is actually the right thing to do and he should have done it much stronger), but at the same time give them an award for:
> 
> Not for Arjun, ships or other things, but EXACTLY those things at LCA he wanted to urge DRDO to do better. LCA is suffering from designs flaws, it's development and certification is delayed for years, development of it's subsystems even failed and they give them an award? That is not only making the PM look bad, but also makes this award worthless, if they don't actually give them for people and projects that actually would deserve it. This is just another chance for DRDO to celebrate itself and do as if they have achieved something, when they still haven't!
> It's like awarding HAL for the design and development of IJT, when it has major problems, is delayed and still not useful for the forces. Would be just as pointless don't you think?


Its better that we shelve Mark-2 development and jump to Mark-3 or mini-FGFA. Cause by the time MK-2 become fully operational its worth in IAF will be questionable. 

BTW @sancho @Abingdonboy : You tired posting on PMs page/website ???
I think it will be better option to convey him what people think of LCA  and let him ask the questions we ask him to development team


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## ANPP

proud_indian said:


> Why do you oppose MMRCA anyway?


 
Because it will kill LCA as well AMCA project.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Its better that we shelve Mark-2 development and jump *to Mark-3*



NOOO buddy, please don't start with that. There are enough people on BR that are dreaming about "simply" switching from a single engine LCA MK1 to a twin engined LCA MK3, as if it's that easy. So don't let us start with that here too. 

We need to finish LCA as a project, not only the MK1 version but also to keep further fixing and improving it, since the prime advantage of it is, that it gives as highly valuable know how and experience of developing, producing, inducting, upgrading indigenous fighters and techs. So LCA is far too big to fail for India, even if it's operational importance for our forces is not that big anymore!
We need MK2 in IAF, but it could had been done easier and faster, if we would had kept IN and N-LCA out of it. But it must be developed and inducted and at some point even an MK3 upgrade will come, although not as a major re-design as many think, but as a normal life extention and capability increase of the fighter, just as we did it with other fighters too.



Sergi said:


> You tired posting on PMs page/website ???
> I think it will be better option to convey him what people think of LCA  and let him ask the questions we ask him to development team



Not sure about @Abingdonboy but I haven't and when I see the rather mild ways he now convey his "critical remarks" (see his statements on rape cases or now on delivering LCA), I don't think there will be much changes.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> NOOO buddy, please don't start with that. There are enough people on BR that are dreaming about "simply" switching from a single engine LCA MK1 to a twin engined LCA MK3, as if it's that easy. So don't let us start with that here too.


 then you are missing point. MK-3 concept.  what the f that might be. Mr sarsawar said application on 5th gen tech in LCA MK2 is MK-3 !!!!! I hope you can google that !!!!!
My only point ;from another thread ; is to add internal weapon stations to LCA. We are modifying it anyway in long 3 years !!!!!! in long terms so it can be relevant.


> Not sure about @Abingdonboy but I haven't and when I see the rather mild ways he now convey his "critical remarks" (see his statements on rape cases or now on delivering LCA), I don't think there will be much changes.


You should. Lets hope something good came out of it. I will be doing same. May be we can pool an opinion so PM can check facts and fictions.

@sancho @Kinetic @SpArK @GORKHALI @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @he-man @Abingdonboy @arp2041 @AGENT 47 & @ every Indian our PM is extending his ears for opinions lets make sure he hear what he needs to
No matter what happens we need to convey Him our thoughts.
This is the site 
MyGov - A Platform for Citizen Engagement towards Good Governance in India


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> then you are missing point. MK-3 concept.  what the f that might be. Mr sarsawar said application on 5th gen tech in LCA MK2 is MK-3 !!!!! I hope you can google that !!!!!



NOOOOOOO, that's even worse!!!  I though we would be beyond that nutjob and his pointless dreams! No need to google I know what he said, but I also know what he meant. He talked about integrating 5th gen avionics and made it sound like LCA could be developed to a stealth fighter or so, when all he actually meant was, integrating a single screen touch display to LCA in future, something like the F35 or the Silent Hornet are meant to get. But that's just the BS he used to provide to Indian media, that was happy to spread the nonsense. A touchscrceen doesn't make LCAs airframe stealthy, doesn't make it carry all the fuel and weapons internally, therefor LCA will never be even close to 5th generation.




Sergi said:


> My only point ;from another thread ; is to add internal weapon stations to LCA.



You can't integrate weapon bays and even a weapon pod will be next to impossible because of the size limitations of the centerline station (same reason why the fueltank is smaller than the one at the wings). The fact that they have to strengthen and widen the airframe to integrate the new engine, fuel tanks and some avionics shows how limited the space is.



Sergi said:


> You should. Lets hope something good came out of it. I will be doing same. May be we can pool an opinion so PM can check facts and fictions.
> 
> @ every Indian our PM is extending his ears for opinions lets make sure he hear what he needs to
> No matter what happens we need to convey Him our thoughts.
> This is the site
> MyGov - A Platform for Citizen Engagement towards Good Governance in India



Sounds good!

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## amygdaloideum

sancho said:


> He might be informed, but as in the C17 issue recently, he propably is talking about old / total requirements. IAF will not buy 200 x LCAs, simply by the fact that it would take far too long to produce it. Even the initial 40 + 80 order is not expected to be available before 2022 and by a time, when the 126 MMRCAs could be in the final delivery stage, which means going for the optionals and inducting them at the same time as the LCA MK2 that are now on order makes more sense, then waiting longer just to add more LCAs that also are far less capable. And as I said before, in exactly that time IAF will also induct FGFA, Rustom H and maybe is even close to Aura and in the development of AMCA. LCA simply has the wrong timing now, which puts it in far too much competition and with far too less capability to justify that numbers. The total LCA procurements, including N-LCAs could be around 200 and maybe even the 2 x MK1 squads might be replaced with propper MK2 squads, but that still doesn't get it to 200 in IAF.


do you think hal/drdo/ada/(whatever DPSU) are capable of delivering tejas mk2 *on time?
will they even be relevant when inducted? 
PS-*what is your opinion about the stratpost discussion video on tejas?


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## sancho

@Sergi 

Ok, here are my top 3 questions!

1) If IN admits that N-LCA is just a medicore fighter, that won't be very capable and if IAF basically has no requirement for an AMCA, why do we waste time and money on these developments? Why not LCA only for IAF and AMCA only for IN, where each fighter offers the most benefit?

2) If the indigenous AESA is not ready in time till the first LCA MK2 will be produced, why not take the AESA of the MMRCA and benefit from commonality, instead making LCA MK2 suffer from using inferior technology?

3) Why not take advantage of the Maitri SAM development, to use the missile as a WVR missile to replace R73 missiles from LCA and all Russian fighters? Minimum changes, further applications => lower unit cost and more independence from imported missiles!



amygdaloideum said:


> do you think hal/drdo/ada/(whatever DPSU) are capable of delivering tejas mk2 *on time?
> will they even be relevant when inducted? *



On time? Depends on how fast they will get a propper MK2 prototype and the engine integrated. Relevent in operational terms in our forces no, since they always were only considered to be the low end. But in the time when the MK2 will arrive, most of the possible roles of an LCA will be taken over by drones, leaving only air policing roles. For many export customers, a light 4.5th generation fighter, that is cost-effective and includes proven western engines would be a good choice though, but the mix of US engines and Israeli avionics or weapons will pose export limitations. 
But above operational importance and export chances, it remains to be the most important development of our aero sector, since it sets the base for any future development. Be it for materials, coatings, avionics and EW, where we already gained some good knowledge, or in fighter design, radar and engine developments, where we still have a lot to learn. Everything is dependent on it and not only finishing LCA but keep further improving is a must!

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## amygdaloideum

sancho said:


> On time? Depends on how fast they will get a propper MK2 prototype and the engine integrated. Relevent in operational terms in our forces no, since they always were only considered to be the low end. But in the time when the MK2 will arrive, most of the possible roles of an LCA will be taken over by drones, leaving only air policing roles. For many export customers, a light 4.5th generation fighter, that is cost-effective and includes proven western engines would be a good choice though, but the mix of US engines and Israeli avionics or weapons will pose export limitations.
> But above operational importance and export chances, it remains to be the most important development of our aero sector, since it sets the base for any future development. Be it for materials, coatings, avionics and EW, where we already gained some good knowledge, or in fighter design, radar and engine developments, where we still have a lot to learn. Everything is dependent on it and not only finishing LCA but keep further improving is a must!


whats the point in developing something irrelevant?
just for the sake of pride ?!!
why not pick up the positives from MK1 and start on something new as most air chiefs suggested.
TBH,,,i feel with all the tall claims MK2 may as well follow the kaveri GTRE road,or arrive at a time when IAF has no use for it


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## Anony

amygdaloideum said:


> do you think hal/drdo/ada/(whatever DPSU) are capable of delivering tejas mk2 *on time?
> will they even be relevant when inducted?
> PS-*what is your opinion about the stratpost discussion video on tejas?



In that case even Rafale will not be relevant as even if the deal get signed today, 4 out of 6 squadron will enter service post 2020.

There will not be much difference in tech level of these two fighters post 2020


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## amygdaloideum

Anony said:


> There will not be much difference in tech level of these two fighters post 2020


rafale is in active service while mk2 is on paper,,(not even mk1 in service yet)
no comparison


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## bloo

**

*LCA to miss December 2014 FOC deadline*
Published August 23, 2014 | By admin
SOURCE: SP Guide Publications







In yet another slippage, the LCA Tejas is all set to miss its December 2014 deadline for final operational clearance (FOC), and will instead achieve the milestone closer to June next year according to top sources on the programme. Delivery of series production aircraft, to have commenced by December last year, has been pushed from July 2014 to at least October 2014, with HAL struggling to compress delivery schedules.

An exasperated Indian Air Force has sent out a strong message that the LCA Mk.1 will see operational service as nothing more than an lead-in trainer, and that ADA needs to focus on delivering the LCA Mk.2, powered by the GE-F414 turbofan engine. Top sources say that test points running into over 1,200 for single engine performance are yet to be notched up by the team at the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) and mandatory for the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification to accord final documents.

A handover deadline of June 2015 is likely be set for final delivery of the Mk.1 platform and first lot of squadron-ready aircraft. According to a recent HAL statement, the business partners who work on the Light Combat Aircraft have resolved to ensure the indigenous content of components used in the aircraft touches 80 percent in next three years. DRDO chief Dr. AvinashChander said, “It is possible to achieve such a goal since 165 out of 344 Line Replacement Units (LRUs) are already made in India. The LCA dream has been achieved in-spite of denial of technology.

It is clear that we have capability and the government will do everything possible to strengthen the knowledge base. Even funding can be provided and national facilities (such as testing) may be shared with private players to bring down costs to create a vibrant aerospace eco-system.”

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## Anony

sancho said:


> @Sergi
> 
> Ok, here are my top 3 questions!
> 
> 1) If IN admits that N-LCA is just a medicore fighter, that won't be very capable and if IAF basically has no requirement for an AMCA, why do we waste time and money on these developments? Why not LCA only for IAF and AMCA only for IN, where each fighter offers the most benefit?
> 
> 2) If the indigenous AESA is not ready in time till the first LCA MK2 will be produced, why not take the AESA of the MMRCA and benefit from commonality, instead making LCA MK2 suffer from using inferior technology?
> 
> 3) Why not take advantage of the Maitri SAM development, to use the missile as a WVR missile to replace R73 missiles from LCA and all Russian fighters? Minimum changes, further applications => lower unit cost and more independence from imported missiles!



Because one half is your assumption and the other half is your unfavourable resistance towards Tejas.

Indian Navy never said that N-LCA is not required, they said 8 N-LCA mk1 for training and 46 N-LCA mk2 for combat role. IAF will find big requirement of AMCA if for once they look up from this shitty MMRCA chapter and visualize the threat perception post 2025, they will understand they don't need this MMRCA deal. Original MMRCA was for 126 Mirage 2000 of decade old era and now Tejas mk1 itself has gone a step ahead of upgraded Mirage 2000 of today's tech, then there basically remains no need of this stupid MMRCA, which just a waste of Taxpayers money.

There is no mission parameters that Rafale can perform which other fighters of IAF can't or will not.

Even the superiority of tech in Rafale is a big question, as it is just claimed by Dassault, never put into practical use against any potential adversaries.



sancho said:


> On time? Depends on how fast they will get a propper MK2 prototype and the engine integrated. Relevent in operational terms in our forces no, since they always were only considered to be the low end. But in the time when the MK2 will arrive, most of the possible roles of an LCA will be taken over by drones, leaving only air policing roles. For many export customers, a light 4.5th generation fighter, that is cost-effective and includes proven western engines would be a good choice though, but the mix of US engines and Israeli avionics or weapons will pose export limitations.
> But above operational importance and export chances, it remains to be the most important development of our aero sector, since it sets the base for any future development. Be it for materials, coatings, avionics and EW, where we already gained some good knowledge, or in fighter design, radar and engine developments, where we still have a lot to learn. Everything is dependent on it and not only finishing LCA but keep further improving is a must!



Tejas will keep getting delayed till the time this MMRCA circus is on. Tejas being better than upgraded Mirage 2000 is accepted by ex-pilot of IAF. Even then if it is not being inducted, then something fishy is going on within IAF and not in the Tejas capability.



amygdaloideum said:


> rafale is in active service while mk2 is on paper,,(not even mk1 in service yet)
> no comparison



So by that logic we should induct more Mig 29 than thinking about FGFA, as the former is a proven aircraft and in service since last 4 decade.

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## amygdaloideum

Anony said:


> So by that logic we should induct more Mig 29 than thinking about FGFA, as the former is a proven aircraft and in service since last 4 decade.


that will not be my logic,,,i wud rather listen what our own airchiefs had to say about the whole project
mk1 is in production,,DRDO/HAL/ADA job well done,,,
but let us be done with this lca saga,,,pick up what we learned through it and start afresh,hopefully in a JV with other like minded nation


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## rockstarIN

Can't we dilute the testing points aka standards lower? Even USN said we are 5 times more than cautious while flight testing,they did not keep such 'testing' standards as we consulted them for IN LCA. So why so much high standards by NTFC?

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## gslv mk3

rockstarIN said:


> Even USN said we are 5 times more than cautious while flight testing,they did not keep such 'testing' standards as we consulted them for IN LCA.



Links bro ?


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## rockstarIN

gslv mk3 said:


> Links bro ?


Naval LCA set for carrier compatibility tests - The Times of India



> A senior ADA official said a US Navy Carrier Suitability Test Team will audit the test findings and its experience in developing and maintaining carrier-borne aircraft will be useful.

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## nomi007

*which is the major issue still tejas have*
*due to which it still in testing phase from 2 decade *


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## ni8mare

Water Car Engineer said:


> New, good clip. The production line looks good.


can anybody translate plz


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## sancho

amygdaloideum said:


> whats the point in developing something irrelevant?
> just for the sake of pride ?!!
> why not pick up the positives from MK1 and start on something new as most air chiefs suggested.




To make up numbers in the fleet, that's what a light class fighter is meant for. It never should be the most capable, nor very important for the force, but a cost-effective addition that can be inducted in higher numbers. LCAs problem are the delays, that's why the initial planned numbers won't be reality anymore and partially taken over by MMRCA. But even the 6 squads that are on order will be somewhat useful at the low end of the fleet. We can't stop the project here, because too little was achieved so far and we already move on with the FGFA project. So we need to finish LCA, keep fixing issues and learn from the mistakes we made, since that is the real value of the LCA project.



Anony said:


> Indian Navy never said that N-LCA is not required



No, they said it's not capable, but it's Indian and the latter is not enough to justify a multi million dollar development and procurement.



Anony said:


> Original MMRCA was for 126 Mirage 2000 of decade old era and now Tejas mk1 itself has gone a step ahead of upgraded Mirage 2000 of today's tech



Not really, LCA MK1 is technically at the same 4th generation base as the upgraded Mirage 2000-5s, but operationally less capable, because it lacks the flight performance of the Mirage, nor can it carry as many AAMs and will have the inferior weapon pack too. So LCA MK1 today, doesn't provide IAF with capability and performance, they required in the early 2000s from MRCA, while they today want far more capable M-MRCAs to take on the threat perception of the next 3 decades.


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## Nova2

ni8mare said:


> can anybody translate plz


@danger007 bro translate kar de yar


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## danger007

Nova2 said:


> @danger007 bro translate kar de yar


No probs.. in short they are saying, Tejas is ready for final trials.... and sort of media hype..... about the jet like more advanced, nightmare to enemies stuff...

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Can't we dilute the testing points aka standards lower? Even USN said we are 5 times more than cautious while flight testing,they did not keep such 'testing' standards as we consulted them for IN LCA. So why so much high standards by NTFC?



On the one had lack of experience, even IN complained about the design flaws of N-LCA since ADA/DRDO had developed it too "secure" by over designing the gear for example, simply by the fact that we don't know it better. Airbus is helping now, even if they hardly have experience in navalising as well, but at least they have far more knowledge in design and development of fighters, which helps of course.
On the other hand, the maybe overprotective approach might also be aimed on not risking a crash and the track record of LCA is good so far.

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## Nova2

danger007 said:


> No probs.. in short they are saying, Tejas is ready for final trials.... and sort of media hype..... about the jet like more advanced, nightmare to enemies stuff...


 thanks,typical desi media always high on something

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## trident2010

Can't wait to see it inducted in IAF.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Once Tejas mark II enters into production, It will beat jf17 block II. With Powerful engine of U.S.A, Israeli electronics and western mix, it will become potent fighter.


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## Etilla

N-LCA...Mk2....

Can IAF get delivery of a single Mk1 ? 
Also has there been any vs test of Tejas?

Can it hold its ground against the bis ?

The plane can fly and perform combat missions we all know now. But is it comparable to any aircraft in IAF fleet as of now?


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## trident2010

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Once Tejas mark II enters into production, It will beat jf17 block II. With Powerful engine of U.S.A, Israeli electronics and western mix, it will become potent fighter.



Thats true !! And most importantly fully designed, developed and flown by an Indian


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## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> Thats true !! And most importantly fully designed, developed and flown by an Indian



except the radar, engine and weapon suit that is non indian.


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## AMCA

Dazzler said:


> except the radar, engine and weapon suit that is non indian.



Radar is Partly Indian and would be a fully Indigenous AESA on the Mk2 version. Weapon Systems have Indian components too Like the Astra BVRM , Indigenous EW Suite and Sudarshan LGB. The only non Indian factor is its Engine, but we have one under development. We don't need to be dependent on a foreign vendor even if a sanction is imposed over us. Yes we may fly with an under powered engine but would fly nevertheless..

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## trident2010

Dazzler said:


> except the radar, engine and weapon suit that is non indian.



Yes, but in time they shall be replaced with Indian ones. In my opinion an engine will be the most difficult of all.


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## Dazzler

thats true, engine is the most difficult technology to master, worse, there is a monopoly of those who possess the advanced technology so that others stay r3liant and could not become competitors.


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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> except the radar, engine and weapon suit that is non indian.



Just as in the Gripen NG, the T50 (S. Korea), or the F2 and all of them are indigenously developed aircrafts as well. By the time LCA will be inducted, most of the weapons might be indigenous too. At least the early MK2s might have the indigenous puls doppler radar, Astra and Sudarshan LGBs. Using foreign components, either to augment or to increase the capability of the aircraft is not bad, but actually a good point. The only issue is, if the foreign stuff comes from a source that isn't reliable, be it in war / sanction times, or for the export potential.

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## trident2010

sancho said:


> The only issue is, if the foreign stuff comes from a source that isn't reliable, be it in war / sanction times, or for the export potential.



In addition, it hampers the export potential if the critical components are not indigenous.


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## Black Widow

Dazzler said:


> except the radar, engine and weapon suit that is non indian.




Does it matter? 

So many time it has been discussed, I hope this question must not come now..


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## cloud_9

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/507161316046286848

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## Agent_47



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## Abingdonboy

IN's SBTF where the N-LCA will be tested:

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## sudhir007

Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force Flies Light Combat Aircraft Tejas





Air Staff Air Marshal SBP Sinha (R) standing in front of India's indegenios combat aircraft Tejas.

*New Delhi: * Deputy Air Chief Air Marshal S B P Sinha on Wednesday became the first officer of his rank to fly indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas and praised its performance, saying it handled "well" on the ground as well as in the air.

Mr Sinha flew the aircraft (trainer version) in Bengaluru where he was on a two-day visit to Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) during which he took a review of various aspects of the Tejas programme.
"Having had first hand experience and feel of the aircraft, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff said it handles well both on the ground and in the air," an official statement said.

The first flight by a senior officer of this rank was a joyous occasion for all stakeholders, including ADA, HAL, National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and the IAF among others, it said.

Expressing his happiness, Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) and ADA Direcotr P S Subramanyam said that the Tejas flown by a senior IAF commander indicates the high degree of confidence in the indigenous light combat aircraft

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> IN's SBTF where the N-LCA will be tested:



It might be able to take off there, but not land via arrested landing, at least not the current tech demonstrator that doesn't have a hook yet.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> It might be able to take off there, but not land via arrested landing, at least not the current tech demonstrator that doesn't have a hook yet.


I'm talking about the whole N-LCA program not the solitary test N-LCA we have seen to date.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm talking about the whole N-LCA program not the solitary test N-LCA we have seen to date.



Me too, without getting a fully developed N-LCA, we won't be using them to the full extend on the SBTF. So they at least need to further develop it with a hook and possibly other changes, to test it there as we do it with the Migs today.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> So they at least need to further develop it with a hook and possibly other changes,


This is clearly going to happen, doesn't really need to be said.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This is clearly going to happen, doesn't really need to be said.



At least it should be according to the plans, the question is only when? The N-LCA MK1 is a tech demonstrator, mainly used to develop the design changes that would be required for a naval fighter. Developing and testing these doesn't mean that they have to use it from the SBTF, because it's about certifying the changes of the aircraft, not making it ready for carrier operations itself. The navy has already stated that they see the MK2 as the version they want, which makes it possible, that we see further changes only with the first batch of MK2 prototypes and that itself is a pretty long shot now.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

*HAL gets a pat on the back*

BANGALORE: Chief of air staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, on Friday appreciated efforts of defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in establishing the state-of-the-art Iron Bird facility at its Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC). 
"It is a unique facility and an asset to the LCA Tejas programme," HAL chairman R K Tyagi said, adding that Raha 'appreciated the joint team efforts of HAL and other agencies that has resulted in *completion of more than 14,370 hours of rigorous software testing of the aircraft*.
The facility allows for an integrity test for the flight control system for statically unstable aircraft such as LCA and very few countries in the world have access to such testing platform.
Iron Bird is the final platform where all the issues of LCA Tejas flight control systems are resolved to ensure safety of the flight.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Trawllu

Etilla said:


> N-LCA...Mk2....
> 
> Can IAF get delivery of a single Mk1 ?
> Also has there been any vs test of Tejas?
> 
> Can it hold its ground against the bis ?
> 
> The plane can fly and perform combat missions we all know now. But is it comparable to any aircraft in IAF fleet as of now?



it is better than all except Mig29 in some aspects and Su30MKI


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## SQ8

About to start a masquerade set of shots. With IAF aircraft flying in PAF colors and vice versa. While Ill be doing a dedicated thread for this. Thought I'd start off here with a nice derailing post 

Behold, the HAL Light Tactical Fighter the "Garjan".

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## GORKHALI

Oscar said:


> About to start a masquerade set of shots. With IAF aircraft flying in PAF colors and vice versa. While Ill be doing a dedicated thread for this. Thought I'd start off here with a nice derailing post
> 
> Behold, the HAL Light Tactical Fighter the "Garjan".
> View attachment 48944


hahaha..................


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## SQ8

k7x said:


> Just because an airforce accepted a fighter , doest mean that every airforce will accept that.
> 
> Each airforce has a different need.
> 
> Front line fighter of one airfoce is a practice drone for another.... (search QF16)



You do realize that the F-16 is also the front line fighter for other airforces. When trying to take a cheap shot, at least be knowledgeable enough to take it. Banned from thread.

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## Armstrong

@levina *Apa* - Do you have a grip over Aeronautics or is Civil more you thing ?

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## Levina

Armstrong said:


> @levina *Apa* - Do you have a grip over Aeronautics or is Civil more you thing ?


Aeronaut (aka @Horus) is the only "thing" which comes to my mind when somebody mentions Aeronautics. 

Btw what is it about aeronautics that you wanna know?

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## Armstrong

levina said:


> Aeronaut (aka @Horus) is the only "thing" which comes to my mind when somebody mentions Aeronautics.
> 
> Btw what is it about aeronautics that you wanna know?



I just wanted to know your technical opinion about the Tejas !

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## Levina

Armstrong said:


> I just wanted to know your technical opinion about the Tejas !


You had to do this to me??
You had to ask me what I know about that cute lil thing with delta wings when you know this thread is frequently visited by some stalwarts.???
I am very dilattante on this subject and I know by the end of this post most prolly you'll be sniggering at me.
Nevah mind!

Frankly tejas reminds me of a headline that I read long back "I will not let my boys fly this-PV naik".
PV naik was our IAF chief then but he still welcomed Tejas grudgingly into IAF after he was pressed by the politicians. 
But now I hear that HAL and ADA guys have worked harder on it,increased its angle of attack and 
verified the robustness of its Air Data System etc. And heard it can carry a plethora of weapons. So I guess now nobody's complaining.

(Oh pls..oh pls gaawd I hope nobody reads it except that cartoon who tagged me here)

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## Harisudan

Clearly one thing I want to mention here is that, no one here, knows what's really happening inside the ADA, HAL and IAF combo..
they've crossed the stages of whatever you boys discuss here..IOC/FOC parameters have already been achieved almost upto the level of satisfaction..whatever is going on right now, is the final set of equipments to be Incorporated for the first MK1 sqn and the incorporations and assembly lines required..The official declaration of FOC could very well be in the initial months of next year..But then By the time, it would have been already in the production lines of HAL facilities..
The reason why so many new talks about MK2, Stealth version etc is that, the works are simultaneously progressing for each of them..HAL came out of the old decision making methods and they are very much eager to see this done..
The delusions and forecastings about MK2 coming after 2022 or something like that is absolutely bullshit hence, out of 1400 parameters to be checked and tested in MK2, more than 1200 have been concluded in MK1 prototypes itself..that is why it is taking much time..
One more reason for delay is also due to the IAF not yet finalising the final set of equipments and electronics on board MK1..
it is expected anytime from them officially..

Guys think of a very complicated new system you want to acquire and phase out an old system which primarily dictated your whole war philosophy. The LCA Mk 1 is like that to the Mig 21's.
Not just the war planes but pilots, ground crew and engineers will need to be trained and made ready. TETRA's will be set up and with the LCA MK I, IAF will settle in for the long haul. Here the OEM will be next door. Expect a lot of feedback, alterations, complaints, heart burns initially. We may not like it but any new system will see this kind of feedback.
The IAF is prudent in not placing too many orders before line pilots fly the machine. Please understand, Test Pilots are like those 'technologists' who will play with a new system but line pilots will mostly be like the 'late majority'. Of course, this will be a slightly more experimental 'late majority'.
There is no point pushing in a system in large numbers since we have an 'at home' build capability. The changes will come thick 'n fast once the line sqns begin their work. A significant part of the feedback will be from the maintenance crew, the people who will have to get the bird ready quickly. I say there is a need to focus on making the LCA succeed and it may not necessarily lie in the large initial order. Let us prepare for this deluge of feedback and be ready with a mechanism to handle it.""--These where not my words but that of someone trustworthy..

Also I've came across a question, which could be a very nice debate point here for all those who think HAL is nut job..
"IAF has to explain why Mig21s etc needed to be replaced with 30 Bil $ 126 Rafales, AC against ****'s and from where it expects the nation to fund all its "requirements". Perhaps IAF needed to be told that they need to make their demands based among others on the resultant cost to the nation. A reasonable size of the order unlike the 20plus 20 AC order as of now will make building of capabilities and a rewarding enterprise for Private Sector.
Finding a Tejas Limited with all the tech, men and facilities transferred to it will be a very good idea..

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## indiatester

^^^
@Harisudan Where did you get the above data from? Do you work at HAL?


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## raazh

Harisudan said:


> out of 1400 parameters to be checked and tested in MK2, more than 1200 have been concluded in MK1 prototypes itself..that is why it is taking much time..
> One more reason for delay is also due to the IAF not yet finalising the final set of equipments and electronics on board MK1


200 parameters and set of equipments and electronics on board still not finalized. Are you serious ?? What have they been doing if all of this is still to be done .. dont think forecasts of MK2 after 2022 is a wrong call at all ..


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## Harisudan

raazh said:


> 200 parameters and set of equipments and electronics on board still not finalized. Are you serious ?? What have they been doing if all of this is still to be done .. dont think forecasts of MK2 after 2022 is a wrong call at all ..


Dude, just read the full post man..Out of 1400 atleast 1200 have been already tested on LSPs..The remaining 200 is what is the difference between the Naval version, MK2 and Mk1..
In the Naval version connecting to Under carriage strengthening and arrestor hook, some 50 to 60 parameters are left, likewise u can imagine, how much work is left..
regarding the MK2, the air to air refuelling probe, and Fuselage changes for fitting in GE414 will almost comes to 150 parameters..
Now you guys tell how much work is left??
HAL, ADA accepted the bitter truth that, LCA MK1 is way beyond schedule, but in the process, they are also catching up time for MK2 version which will be the final one..MK1 as of now will be a training platform and a platform which will be helped to formulate strategies, train ground crews in maintaining, do all sorts of trail and error stuffs before they pitch it against any known 4+ generation fighter ..
Hence the 40+ number is for placing it in two bases and formulate the strategies and train the engineers and make it familiarise with the aircraft and fly recon missions and analyse the ability and Pros & Cons..Remember the testing pilots are experts and the strategies cannot be formed based on their inputs. they only provide inputs on functioning of equipments, such as compressors stalls under various altitude, flaps, afterburner effectiveness, when pulling up etc.
The real fighting strategies and maneouvours will be finalised by the line pilots only and it take many months if not years..
By the time they do that, MK2 will be rolling out of HALs..
Trust me the PAKIS are also doing the same thing with their JF17 now..They are just showing the weapons integrations and all other fancy videos to satisfy two things..
1. To show their own people that they are ready for any Indian adventurism and hence making the people and politicians satisfied..
2. Asusual to satisfy their EGO that they are always in toe to toe with any Indian Advancement if not ahead of us..
These are hard facts that no Indian, or Pakistani flier can refuse and also known to both of our planners..

By the way what the Pakis doing currently is a very good decision for their airforce considering the current economic and geo political scenarios to Induct JF17 first and do whatever trials or testing is required later on..
which will put them in a very good platform considering their arch rivals India..
Because they have inducted it first and then formulating the strategies and simultaneous inductions are also happening and hence they could provide real time corrections and changes required to the designers and engineers wherever they are(Be it in China or Pakistan) to improve the aircraft according to their needs..
That way, they will be ahead of us in terms of numbers when we finally start rolling out our aircraft..
Hence it is a good decision..



indiatester said:


> Where did you get the above data from? Do you work at HAL?


 No, I don't work for HAL..
We just share these things when we sit for few drinks with my Ex colleagues who are currently working at HALs various sectors..
we were all the part of same organisation until few years back..

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## Harisudan

The whole LCA project was made a mess by our fighting forces..Not only LCA, but flagship Arjun MBT as well..
They never cared to explain the need for a Rafale to raplace Mig 21 when Tejas was coming in well..
They also never cared to explain, why they could not Induct Arjun when the T90s where not even having night vision,
That too when Arjun was beating T90 in almost all areas hands down..
With the Advent of Modi's new government, strict messages where passed on to the commanders via defence ministry that self reliance is the only way forward and to forget all the foreign acquisitions they were eyeing on..
So, one thing is for sure, as we speak, some serious discussions are happening regarding very crucial acquisitions and some of them are about to be milked by us if they do want to sell their products here, considering the way they milked us when we needed them the most..Yes I mean it, some projects are even ready to be scrapped, because, we simply don't need them anymore, and all they want is just to milk us and pass no crucial tech..
We can expect the decision in few months..


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## halupridol

Harisudan said:


> Dude, just read the full post man..Out of 1400 atleast 1200 have been already tested on LSPs..The remaining 200 is what is the difference between the Naval version, MK2 and Mk1..
> In the Naval version connecting to Under carriage strengthening and arrestor hook, some 50 to 60 parameters are left, likewise u can imagine, how much work is left..
> regarding the MK2, the air to air refuelling probe, and Fuselage changes for fitting in GE414 will almost comes to 150 parameters..
> Now you guys tell how much work is left??
> HAL, ADA accepted the bitter truth that, LCA MK1 is way beyond schedule, but in the process, they are also catching up time for MK2 version which will be the final one..MK1 as of now will be a training platform and a platform which will be helped to formulate strategies, train ground crews in maintaining, do all sorts of trail and error stuffs before they pitch it against any known 4+ generation fighter ..
> Hence the 40+ number is for placing it in two bases and formulate the strategies and train the engineers and make it familiarise with the aircraft and fly recon missions and analyse the ability and Pros & Cons..Remember the testing pilots are experts and the strategies cannot be formed based on their inputs. they only provide inputs on functioning of equipments, such as compressors stalls under various altitude, flaps, afterburner effectiveness, when pulling up etc.
> The real fighting strategies and maneouvours will be finalised by the line pilots only and it take many months if not years..
> By the time they do that, MK2 will be rolling out of HALs..
> Trust me the PAKIS are also doing the same thing with their JF17 now..They are just showing the weapons integrations and all other fancy videos to satisfy two things..
> 1. To show their own people that they are ready for any Indian adventurism and hence making the people and politicians satisfied..
> 2. Asusual to satisfy their EGO that they are always in toe to toe with any Indian Advancement if not ahead of us..
> These are hard facts that no Indian, or Pakistani flier can refuse and also known to both of our planners..
> 
> By the way what the Pakis doing currently is a very good decision for their airforce considering the current economic and geo political scenarios to Induct JF17 first and do whatever trials or testing is required later on..
> which will put them in a very good platform considering their arch rivals India..
> Because they have inducted it first and then formulating the strategies and simultaneous inductions are also happening and hence they could provide real time corrections and changes required to the designers and engineers wherever they are(Be it in China or Pakistan) to improve the aircraft according to their needs..
> That way, they will be ahead of us in terms of numbers when we finally start rolling out our aircraft..
> Hence it is a good decision..
> 
> 
> No, I don't work for HAL..
> We just share these things when we sit for few drinks with my Ex colleagues who are currently working at HALs various sectors..
> we were all the part of same organisation until few years back..


 bhaiya,aur kab tak khayali pulao pakaoge,,,2014 khatam hone ko hai,,,mk1 hi ab tak induct nai hua,,,aur log mk2 ko mig29,grippen ke sath compare kar rahe hai


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## sudhir007

*2706th flight on 14 Sep*

TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 *LSP3: 226* LSP5: 278 TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 61* LSP2: 294 *LSP4: 129 LSP7: 120 *NP1: 25 *LSP8 : 110*


*2695th flight on 28 Aug*

TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 *PV3: 387* LSP1: 74 *LSP3: 224 LSP5: 278* TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 *PV5: 59* LSP2: 294 LSP4: 128 *LSP7: 118 *NP1: 25 *LSP8 : 106*


*2660th flight on 30 July*

TD1 : 233 PV1: 242 PV3: 384 LSP1: 74 LSP3: 215 LSP5: 277 TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 51 LSP2: 294 LSP4: 128 LSP7: 115 NP1: 25 LSP8 : 95


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## Harisudan

halupridol said:


> bhaiya,aur kab tak khayali pulao pakaoge,,,2014 khatam hone ko hai,,,mk1 hi ab tak induct nai hua,,,aur log mk2 ko mig29,grippen ke sath compare kar rahe hai


What is wrong in comparing it?
For your information once IOC is issued, IAF started to take it in their hands and things are moving up very fast..
IAF ordered initial 40 aircrafts after the IOC only.DO u know that as we speak the airframes are being fabricated in HAL facilities for atleast four of the new aircrafts for line production..
FOC can also be achieved while inducting them..
It is not mandatory that, FOC is mandatory to IAF to touch Tejas..
Full and final Operational clearance simply means, we can do everything stated in the aircraft rule book but if FOC is not yet declared doesn't mean that the aircraft should not be flown at all..
They can still be flown for testing and familiarisation purposes..
Now that is what is exactly happening..
MK1 is ready and IAF got their hands already on this plane.
FOC is just a word..
And regarding the comparing part,
Yes why not compare it with Mig 29, since it can perform all the OPs the Mig29 can do..??
Stop whining and start looking at our progress in a constructive way..

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## rockstarIN

Harisudan said:


> What is wrong in comparing it?
> For your information once IOC is issued, IAF started to take it in their hands and things are moving up very fast..
> IAF ordered initial 40 aircrafts after the IOC only.DO u know that *as we speak the airframes are being fabricated in HAL facilities for atleast four of the new aircrafts for line production..*
> FOC can also be achieved while inducting them..
> It is not mandatory that, FOC is mandatory to IAF to touch Tejas..
> Full and final Operational clearance simply means, we can do everything stated in the aircraft rule book but if FOC is not yet declared doesn't mean that the aircraft should not be flown at all..
> They can still be flown for testing and familiarisation purposes..
> Now that is what is exactly happening..
> MK1 is ready and IAF got their hands already on this plane.
> FOC is just a word..
> And regarding the comparing part,
> Yes why not compare it with Mig 29, since it can perform all the OPs the Mig29 can do..??
> Stop whining and start looking at our progress in a constructive way..




Initial target was to give SP-1 & SP-2 to IAF by March 2014. And even today both SP-1 & 2 still not airborne. why delay?


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## sancho

Harisudan said:


> "IAF has to explain why Mig21s etc needed to be replaced with 30 Bil $ 126 Rafales, AC against ****'s and from where it expects the nation to fund all its "requirements".



Not really, because it wasn't IAFs decision to go for M-MRCA, but GoI's / MoD's (which obviously knew about the higher costs of that decision and had a plan how to pay for it) and the M-MRCAs are also not meant for Pakistan, but primarily against China. In fact, we might see more LCA MK2 squads alongside Indo-Pak borders than on Indo-Chinese borders. 



rockstarIN said:


> Initial target was to give SP-1 & SP-2 to IAF by March 2014. And even today both SP-1 & 2 still not airborne. why delay?





> He said the Indian Air Force version of Tejas was expected to get final operational clearance by March 2015.


Source: Second Tejas naval prototype to undergo flight test this month

Doesn't sound that optimistic anymore.


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## Anony

rockstarIN said:


> Initial target was to give SP-1 & SP-2 to IAF by March 2014. And even today both SP-1 & 2 still not airborne. why delay?



FYI, it was IAF who rejected the two aircraft which HAL were assembling before IOC-2 saying since the metal is cut before IOC-2, they will not be inducting those two aircraft. Now tell me how can someone expect an aircraft to be produced in just 3 months(Please don't compare HAL with US and China). It takes between 9-12 months for the first aircraft to come out of assembly line.


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## halupridol

Harisudan said:


> What is wrong in comparing it?
> For your information once IOC is issued, IAF started to take it in their hands and things are moving up very fast..
> IAF ordered initial 40 aircrafts after the IOC only.DO u know that as we speak the airframes are being fabricated in HAL facilities for atleast four of the new aircrafts for line production..
> FOC can also be achieved while inducting them..
> It is not mandatory that, FOC is mandatory to IAF to touch Tejas..
> Full and final Operational clearance simply means, we can do everything stated in the aircraft rule book but if FOC is not yet declared doesn't mean that the aircraft should not be flown at all..
> They can still be flown for testing and familiarisation purposes..
> Now that is what is exactly happening..
> MK1 is ready and IAF got their hands already on this plane.
> FOC is just a word..
> And regarding the comparing part,
> Yes why not compare it with Mig 29, since it can perform all the OPs the Mig29 can do..??
> Stop whining and start looking at our progress in a constructive way..


oh,if u think I am whining then what do u call all that talk by ex air chiefs in stratpost videos,kya wo constructive criticism laga,,,,
dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghalib,,,,,,,
n about comparison(always found it funny),,,,
its like a pregnant woman saying 'mera baccha pados ke chintu se jyada hoshiyar hai,,,ab bas 2 mahine hai meri delivry mein,,bas ho hi gaya samjho'--mk1
'my 2nd child will be even more hoshiyar like stephen hawkins,newton,einstein,megatron,blah blah'-mk2
---------------
ps-nothing against u,,,,u r positive n optimistic,,,,but i dont have much faith in our psu's.,,,naam bade aur darshan chote


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## Harisudan

halupridol said:


> oh,if u think I am whining then what do u call all that talk by ex air chiefs in stratpost videos,kya wo constructive criticism laga,,,,
> dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghalib,,,,,,,
> n about comparison(always found it funny),,,,
> its like a pregnant woman saying 'mera baccha pados ke chintu se jyada hoshiyar hai,,,ab bas 2 mahine hai meri delivry mein,,bas ho hi gaya samjho'--mk1
> 'my 2nd child will be even more hoshiyar like stephen hawkins,newton,einstein,megatron,blah blah'-mk2
> ---------------
> ps-nothing against u,,,,u r positive n optimistic,,,,but i dont have much faith in our psu's.,,,naam bade aur darshan chote


I can clearly understand you agony..Things were not so encouraging in the past, but today it is not the case, and that is why I'm really optimistic dear..Even I was like you when I was directly related to some of these bureaucratic crap, but today's case is totally different with the new government and new policy makers..

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## halupridol

Harisudan said:


> I can clearly understand you agony..Things were not so encouraging in the past, but today it is not the case, and that is why I'm really optimistic dear..Even I was like you when I was directly related to some of these bureaucratic crap, but today's case is totally different with the new government and new policy makers..


 bro,as they say,,,,,hope dies last.


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## sancho

halupridol said:


> bro,as they say,,,,,hope dies last.



True, but hope alone doesn't make us better in developing or producing LCA. For that we actually have to work on solutions and not simply take on the next project like it's DRDO's normal behaviour. As long as somebody kick their asses to do their work propperly, hope is all we have + a high possibility to be disappointed from them again.

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## halupridol

sancho said:


> True, but hope alone doesn't make us better in developing or producing LCA. For that we actually have to work on solutions and not simply take on the next project like it's DRDO's normal behaviour. As long as somebody kick their asses to do their work propperly, hope is all we have + a high possibility to be disappointed from them again.


n most probably we will be yet again,,,isnt the stratpost videos evidence enuf that iaf aint too impressed with lca,,,,how much more clear can they be,
though everyone agreed that a low cost local solution for depleting numbers is a must,but that doesnt mean iaf wud wait forever for our abysmal psu's to deliver.
,,I know its almost done.
mk1-no foc yet(pata nai kab milega),n in all probabilty wont see any battle.
mk2-"developing"
naval lca-??? 
ppl like to speculate,compare,boast about lca.
,,,seriously,it amazes me.


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## sancho

halupridol said:


> n most probably we will be yet again,,,isnt the stratpost videos evidence enuf that iaf aint too impressed with lca,,,,how much more clear can they be,
> though everyone agreed that a low cost local solution for depleting numbers is a must,but that doesnt mean iaf wud wait forever for our abysmal psu's to deliver.



I think that is not what they are disappointed about, not even about the operational problems, because LCA as a "fighter" never played an important role in the plans of IAF for the defence of the country. For them it was important to get an indigenous low end fighter, that gives them the capability to be independent from foreign suppliers, that they can modify according to their needs and that can be build in numbers if required, without approval or lenghty negotiations with foreign governments or vendors. The "project" LCA, to build an independent industry that is able to develop fighters indigenously in the long run, had higher importance than the "fighter" LCA itself. 
So IAF imo is not disappointed by the fighter right now, even if it doesn't meet the operational requirements they gave as the base, but they are dissappointed by the PSUs, their managers and scientists, because they managed the „project“ so badly, because the PSU's can't deliver most of their promises, because after all these years the „project“ is on, India still has not the industrial and scientific base, they hoped for. That's the real disappointment that makes India still the biggest importer of arms in the world!

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## halupridol

sancho said:


> The "project" LCA, to build an independent industry that is able to develop fighters indigenously in the long run, *had* higher importance than the "fighter" LCA itself.


 well,that sums it up,doesnt it


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## sancho

halupridol said:


> well,that sums it up,doesnt it



That still hasn't changed, IAF still puts hope on the LCA, the indigenous radar or engine development, IN went for the development of N-LCA for the same reasons of setting up an industry to develop a naval fighter, not to get a capable carrier fighter and even today, IAF is ok with AMCA if it helps to develop indigenous NG techs and capabilities, even if they don't need fighter. So the hope is still going on, but the industry at some point must start to deliver something!

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## 帅的一匹

How could you hope Indian navy will induct a single engine fighter like LCA?

Indian navy will not induct a single engine fighter like LCA, especially on the carriers.


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## rockstarIN

Anony said:


> FYI, it was IAF who rejected the two aircraft which HAL were assembling before IOC-2 saying since the metal is cut before IOC-2, they will not be inducting those two aircraft. Now tell me how can someone expect an aircraft to be produced in just 3 months(Please don't compare HAL with US and China). It takes between 9-12 months for the first aircraft to come out of assembly line.


Sp series is nothing but the latest lsp . Actually HAL clearly did not meet the target


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## Manindra

wanglaokan said:


> How could you hope Indian navy will induct a single engine fighter like LCA?
> 
> Indian navy will not induct a single engine fighter like LCA, especially on the carriers.


It would be Tech demonstrator which helps development of heavy naval fighter.


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## sancho

Manindra said:


> It would be Tech demonstrator which helps development of heavy naval fighter.



If that would be the aim, it would be great. Sadly it isn't and they want to order number of N-LCA MK2s.


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## Black Widow

Manindra said:


> It would be Tech demonstrator which helps development of heavy naval fighter.




It will be TD and Filler both. Navy want 5th Gen Desi fighter for upcoming Carriers there are 2 aproaches for that
a) Develop and Deploy NLCA to learn all challenges. and integrate the learning in next gen fighter
b) Scrap N-LCA and start from scratch on next gen fighter. 

As I remember comments from former naval chief he opted Option (a)...

Filler: N-LCA will be filled in hi-low configuration with MiG29. So that due to some reason if MiG29 K is not available, Carrier will have good number of Figters.



wanglaokan said:


> How could you hope Indian navy will induct a single engine fighter like LCA?
> 
> *Indian navy will not induct a single engine fighter like LCA, especially on the carriers.*




We will... We will induct a good number of Single engine N-LCA on our Carriers..


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## sms

wanglaokan said:


> How could you hope Indian navy will induct a single engine fighter like LCA?
> 
> Indian navy will not induct a single engine fighter like LCA, especially on the carriers.


We'll induct good number of Single engine LCAs. 
Remember, till introduction of Mig-29, IN always used single engine jet e.g. Sea Hawk, Sea Vampire, Sea Harrier


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> a) Develop *and Deploy* NLCA to learn all challenges. and integrate the learning in next gen fighter
> b) *Scrap* N-LCA and start from scratch on next gen fighter.



N-LCAs only use is, to gain industrial know how for navalising fighters, but doesn't give us anything on designing and developing a stealth fighter, not even how to develop a catapult capable fighter. So it's a mid way that we need!

a) Develop NLCA MK1 purely as a tech demo project, to learn all challenges of design, develop and production of a carrier fighter. and integrate the experience to start a new carrier fighter development
b) Scrap N-LCA MK2, since it neither provides operational nor additional industrial advantages
c) Start from scratch on next gen fighter with own stealth design challenges and use the experience gained from the N-LCA Tech Demo project to navalise it

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## surya kiran

sancho said:


> N-LCAs only use is, to gain industrial know how for navalising fighters, but doesn't give us anything on designing and developing a stealth fighter, not even how to develop a catapult capable fighter. So it's a mid way that we need!
> 
> a) Develop NLCA MK1 purely as a tech demo project, to learn all challenges of design, develop and production of a carrier fighter. and integrate the experience to start a new carrier fighter development
> b) Scrap N-LCA MK2, since it neither provides operational nor additional industrial advantages
> c) Start from scratch on next gen fighter with own stealth design challenges and use the experience gained from the N-LCA Tech Demo project to navalise it



It would have made a lot of sense, if we start the next fighter with carrier operations in mind and then think of the IAF version. It could also, be that the N-LCA will get deployed in Andaman and that's as far as it will go? Btw, is the N-LCA capable of STOL or CATOBAR?


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## Harisudan

I have came across an article about Various lightweight fighters developed across the world in comparison with our LCA..Worth a read..Thought about sharing it here..Here you go..
"The Gripen program was conceived in studies conducted by the Swedish aerospace industry in 1978. The Swedish Government prompted in part by evaluations of the F-16 and F-18 by the Swedish Air Force and issues of economics approved the concept of a new light multi-role aircraft. Later in 1982 the Swedish Parliament voted to approve the project and the Defence Materiel Administration signed a contract for development of the JAS 39 Gripen. The first prototype flew in 1988 and the final flight tests were completed in December of 1996 [20]. By March 2000, approximately 85 aircraft have been delivered to the Swedish Air Force, and there is a possibility of sales to foreign countries [21]. Here too a comparison of the initial development time (up to prototype production) of the Gripen with the LCA, strongly favors the Gripen. One could easily conclude from these two examples that LCA R&D is of a poor quality and severely lags the world standard. The authors feel that such an argument is deceptive; it neglects the fine print here.
Firstly the F-16C/D (Block 50+) is a considerably evolved form of the YF-16 produced 24 years ago. While a good deal of this evolution was to expand on the original idea of a Light Weight Fighter to new roles and deployments, there were also several changes in the control system. The F16C/D that we see on the market today owes a fair bit to the work done between 1978 –1989 on the Advanced Fighter Technology Integration Program, which tested systems like Triplex Digital Flight Control System (3 digital control systems and 1 Analog backup) [22]. The LCA by comparison has begun with a Quadruplex DFCS (All four levels of control systems are digital) this is a considerable advance over the F16C/D. The Gripen for its part has also benefited from this research as it has though the consortium approach, sub-contracted development of several systems to participants of the advanced American programs like Lockheed Martin, Rockwell etc [23].
Secondly in designing the F-16, General Dynamics made use of advanced aerospace science and proven reliable systems from other aircraft [24]. The prototype version YF-16 used main landing gear tires from the B-58 Hustler [25], an emergency power unit from the Concorde, an ESCAPAC II ejection seat from the A-4, an air data probe [26] from the SR-71 Blackbird, and servo actuators from the F-111 Aardvark. The actuators in the leading edge flaps were rotary actuators from the F-111 bomb bay doors. The canopy design and the canopy latching system were based on the NASA X-24. Off-the-shelf equipment used in the FSD craft includes a head-up display modified from an A-7 Corsair, nose gear wheel and tire from the F-4, a signal data recorder from the A-10, an oxygen quantity indicator from an F-5E, and a nose wheel steering system from the T-39. The engine, of course, was a modified version of the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine used in the F-15. The same applies to the Gripen where a large number of subsystems were contracted to European and American systems companies [23] and unlike the LCA, _Saab did not have to face sanctions_.
Thirdly there was a large pool of experience present within the American workforce. The so-called `Fighter Mafia’ of John Boyd, Tom Christie, John Chuprun, Harry Hillaker, Chuck Meyers, Pierre Sprey, Everest Riccioni, and others championed Light Weight Fighter concept [27]. These veteran designers in 1971 pushed the Tactical Fighter Requirements Division of Air Force Headquarters to fund a study titled "Study to Validate Expanded Energy-Maneuverability Through Trade-Off Analysis". General Dynamics and Northrop conducted this work. Fueled by steady funding (about $150,000 total) and the good tradeoff data from the study, the lightweight fighter concept was ready in a very short time. The transition was accelerated by the Packard Commission’s resurrection of prototyping to validate new aircraft and other military programs before they go into production. The Americans thus were able to combine these ideas to produce an airplane of reduced size and price [28]. We must also note that by the time the first generation F-16A rolled out the F-15 and F-111 were already flying and had seen action. Saab Military Aviation has produced a range of advanced fighters like the Saab Draken [29], a Mach 2.0 fighter built in the 1952 and the Saab Viggen [30] a multi-role fighter built in 1967.
When the LCA rolled out the only the other aircraft development effort in India was the aborted HF-24 Marut. The capabilities of the LCA and the Marut are so vastly different, that a fair number of components had to be completely redesigned for the LCA, this adds to the development time and cost. A key point here is that both the Americans and the Swedes drew upon a sea of expertise, technology and institutions that were built up much before the F-16 or the JAS39 came along. India has developed a fighter of similar configuration and the ancillary support and development institutions required to develop this fighter, all in a span of 20 years. This is quite an achievement. However given the cost of developing a complex instrument like a combat aircraft, one is almost tempted to simply buy a ready-made and proven platform from a trusted supplier...."

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## Harisudan

surya kiran said:


> It would have made a lot of sense, if we start the next fighter with carrier operations in mind and then think of the IAF version. It could also, be that the N-LCA will get deployed in Andaman and that's as far as it will go? Btw, is the N-LCA capable of STOL or CATOBAR?


Any aircraft is capable of doing a STOBAR and CATOBAR config only if the under carriages are provided with arrestor hooks with strengthened belly and more rigid landing gears and a T/W ratio of ~ 1..

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> N-LCAs only use is, to gain industrial know *how for navalising fighters, *but doesn't give us anything on designing and developing a* stealth fighter*, not even how to develop a* catapult capable fighter*. So it's a mid way that we need!
> 
> a) Develop NLCA MK1 purely as a tech demo project, to learn all challenges of design, develop and production of a carrier fighter. and integrate the experience to start a new carrier fighter development
> b) Scrap N-LCA MK2, since it neither provides operational nor additional industrial advantages
> c) *Start from scratch on next gen fighter *with own stealth design challenges and use the experience gained from the N-LCA Tech Demo project to navalise it




I like your hate for LCA..

1. Yes u are right , "gain industrial know *how for navalising fighters*"
2. No one said that "give us anything on designing and developing a* stealth fighter*, "
3. Why not, may be ? "how to develop a* catapult capable fighter*"
4. U love it , ain't you? "Scrap N-LCA MK2,"
5. Like LCA "*Start from scratch on next gen fighter*" -- No one does that.. no one start something from scratch.. Design can be done from scratch but "next gen fighter??" You are contradicting urself

Few things for Naval fighter which is common , whether the plane is stealth or not .. Catapult or STOBAR
a) Strong Undercarriage 
b) Landing gear
c) landing and Takeoff capability
d) saline and humid ocean environment.
and could be many more, once I get free time I will list those down..



Harisudan said:


> I have came across an article about Various lightweight fighters developed across the world in comparison with our LCA..Worth a read..Thought about sharing it here..Here you go..
> "The Gripen program was conceived in studies conducted by the Swedish aerospace industry in 1978. The Swedish Government prompted in part by evaluations of the F-16 and F-18 by the Swedish Air Force and issues of economics approved the concept of a new light multi-role aircraft. Later in 1982 the Swedish Parliament voted to approve the project and the Defence Materiel Administration signed a contract for development of the JAS 39 Gripen. The first prototype flew in 1988 and the final flight tests were completed in December of 1996 [20]. By March 2000, approximately 85 aircraft have been delivered to the Swedish Air Force, and there is a possibility of sales to foreign countries [21]. Here too a comparison of the initial development time (up to prototype production) of the Gripen with the LCA, strongly favors the Gripen. One could easily conclude from these two examples that LCA R&D is of a poor quality and severely lags the world standard. The authors feel that such an argument is deceptive; it neglects the fine print here.
> Firstly the F-16C/D (Block 50+) is a considerably evolved form of the YF-16 produced 24 years ago. While a good deal of this evolution was to expand on the original idea of a Light Weight Fighter to new roles and deployments, there were also several changes in the control system. The F16C/D that we see on the market today owes a fair bit to the work done between 1978 –1989 on the Advanced Fighter Technology Integration Program, which tested systems like Triplex Digital Flight Control System (3 digital control systems and 1 Analog backup) [22]. The LCA by comparison has begun with a Quadruplex DFCS (All four levels of control systems are digital) this is a considerable advance over the F16C/D. The Gripen for its part has also benefited from this research as it has though the consortium approach, sub-contracted development of several systems to participants of the advanced American programs like Lockheed Martin, Rockwell etc [23].
> Secondly in designing the F-16, General Dynamics made use of advanced aerospace science and proven reliable systems from other aircraft [24]. The prototype version YF-16 used main landing gear tires from the B-58 Hustler [25], an emergency power unit from the Concorde, an ESCAPAC II ejection seat from the A-4, an air data probe [26] from the SR-71 Blackbird, and servo actuators from the F-111 Aardvark. The actuators in the leading edge flaps were rotary actuators from the F-111 bomb bay doors. The canopy design and the canopy latching system were based on the NASA X-24. Off-the-shelf equipment used in the FSD craft includes a head-up display modified from an A-7 Corsair, nose gear wheel and tire from the F-4, a signal data recorder from the A-10, an oxygen quantity indicator from an F-5E, and a nose wheel steering system from the T-39. The engine, of course, was a modified version of the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine used in the F-15. The same applies to the Gripen where a large number of subsystems were contracted to European and American systems companies [23] and unlike the LCA, _Saab did not have to face sanctions_.
> Thirdly there was a large pool of experience present within the American workforce. The so-called `Fighter Mafia’ of John Boyd, Tom Christie, John Chuprun, Harry Hillaker, Chuck Meyers, Pierre Sprey, Everest Riccioni, and others championed Light Weight Fighter concept [27]. These veteran designers in 1971 pushed the Tactical Fighter Requirements Division of Air Force Headquarters to fund a study titled "Study to Validate Expanded Energy-Maneuverability Through Trade-Off Analysis". General Dynamics and Northrop conducted this work. Fueled by steady funding (about $150,000 total) and the good tradeoff data from the study, the lightweight fighter concept was ready in a very short time. The transition was accelerated by the Packard Commission’s resurrection of prototyping to validate new aircraft and other military programs before they go into production. The Americans thus were able to combine these ideas to produce an airplane of reduced size and price [28]. We must also note that by the time the first generation F-16A rolled out the F-15 and F-111 were already flying and had seen action. Saab Military Aviation has produced a range of advanced fighters like the Saab Draken [29], a Mach 2.0 fighter built in the 1952 and the Saab Viggen [30] a multi-role fighter built in 1967.
> When the LCA rolled out the only the other aircraft development effort in India was the aborted HF-24 Marut. The capabilities of the LCA and the Marut are so vastly different, that a fair number of components had to be completely redesigned for the LCA, this adds to the development time and cost. A key point here is that both the Americans and the Swedes drew upon a sea of expertise, technology and institutions that were built up much before the F-16 or the JAS39 came along. India has developed a fighter of similar configuration and the ancillary support and development institutions required to develop this fighter, all in a span of 20 years. This is quite an achievement. However given the cost of developing a complex instrument like a combat aircraft, one is almost tempted to simply buy a ready-made and proven platform from a trusted supplier...."







Hari, 

You are corroborating what I keep saying in multiple platform . 

No nation on earth can make a plane from scratch in less than 20 years. F16, FC1, F22, PAK-FA all are evolution of system. Some esteem members confused by "Designed from scratch" with developed from scratch..

LCA is *developed* from scratch.. (From no knowledge to realization of work)
F22 is *designed* from scratch... (most of its component were already designed, they just evolved)

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## Black Widow

Harisudan said:


> Any aircraft is capable of doing a STOBAR and CATOBAR config only if the under carriages are provided with arrestor hooks with strengthened belly and more rigid landing gears and a T/W ratio of ~ 1..




Exactly...

STOBAR undercarriage is more strengthen than Land base fighter. 
CATOBAR undercarriage is more strengthen than STOBAR fighter.

Carrier based fighter's cockpit is designed to look close for better landing operations. So in NLCA pilot can see more closer than LCA. 

Carrier based fighters' landing gears are more flexible and strong.. U can see the Naval Dhruv or NLCA landing gears for example.


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## Harisudan

Black Widow said:


> I like your hate for LCA..
> 
> 1. Yes u are right , "gain industrial know *how for navalising fighters*"
> 2. No one said that "give us anything on designing and developing a* stealth fighter*, "
> 3. Why not, may be ? "how to develop a* catapult capable fighter*"
> 4. U love it , ain't you? "Scrap N-LCA MK2,"
> 5. Like LCA "*Start from scratch on next gen fighter*" -- No one does that.. no one start something from scratch.. Design can be done from scratch but "next gen fighter??" You are contradicting urself
> 
> Few things for Naval fighter which is common , whether the plane is stealth or not .. Catapult or STOBAR
> a) Strong Undercarriage
> b) Landing gear
> c) landing and Takeoff capability
> d) saline and humid ocean environment.
> and could be many more, once I get free time I will list those down..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hari,
> 
> You are corroborating what I keep saying in multiple platform .
> 
> No nation on earth can make a plane from scratch in less than 20 years. F16, FC1, F22, PAK-FA all are evolution of system. Some esteem members confused by "Designed from scratch" with developed from scratch..
> 
> LCA is *developed* from scratch.. (From no knowledge to realization of work)
> F22 is *designed* from scratch... (most of its component were already designed, they just evolved)



Some people here, thinks Indian DPSUs should develop a fighter plane from scratch, within 5 to 10 years, when the know how's of the complicated sub systems and electronics are not available even with DPSUs or any other Indian Industry for that matter..They want engines, radars, EW systems, weapons, sensors, All other related systems within this time period to be developed Indegenously when no international manufacturer is ready to share know hows or products and accessories due to sanctions laid by the west and when already we are facing problems due to low quality spares and accessories by Russians..
Given the above scenario, DPSU's had several time wrongly predicted the timings of events related to aircraft's development..
Yes, that is the only mistake they've done according to me..No where else I could see any mistake or blunder committed by the DPSU's..
But yet the stupid media and corrupted clowns from the forces are satisfied some how in sourcing equipments from foreign suppliers for humongous prices and signing extremely tricky deals which could make us pay our *** out in the future and not support our home grown equipment even if it is little bit lesser in performance compared to the international 4gen aircrafts..They are not ready to make it potent by upgrading in future once when the tech is available with us, but still manage things learn the bird till the maturity is reached in production..
What the Fcuk........????

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## sancho

surya kiran said:


> It could also, be that the N-LCA will get deployed in Andaman and that's as far as it will go? Btw, is the N-LCA capable of STOL or CATOBAR?



Doubtful, at least not permanently. Once because IAF remains with the costal defence role and they cover A&N from their shore bases at the mainland and secondly, because it IN would aim on using fighters from shore bases, they would take LCA MK2 instead of N-LCA MK2, because it offers more performance and less costs than the naval varient can offer.

No, N-LCA is not able to take off via catapults, because it neither has the necessary front gear and structural strengthening, which would require major additional changes beyond of what is plant so far. 



Black Widow said:


> 5. Like LCA "*Start from scratch on next gen fighter*" -- No one does that.. no one start something from scratch.. Design can be done from scratch but "next gen fighter??" You are contradicting urself



Not really, because it's not only about developing a bigger fighter with 2 engines rather than 1, but about getting an idea about a complete new set of capabilities, be it the design, be it the engine capabilities (Supercruise, TVC, low IR signature), or advanced active and passive sensors, as well as avionics that only partially are developed for LCA today. So it is a start from scratch with very little to benefit from LCA / N-LCA. In fact we would benefit more from HAL's limited participation on FGFA, for any future stealth fighters, than we do from indigenous LCA / N-LCA development, because FGFA gives us access to all NG techs and design fields and will include development of NG sensors or avionics for our version too. 



Black Widow said:


> Few things for Naval fighter which is common , whether the plane is stealth or not .. Catapult or STOBAR
> a) Strong Undercarriage
> b) Landing gear
> c) landing and Takeoff capability



That's only partially correct, because only the rear landing gear will be similar, because the arrested landing is the same on both kind of carriers. The take off however is different and that also is the cause for the most crucial differences. Not only does the front gear of a catapult capable fighter need major strengthening, but also the whole airframe structure, because the whole fighter needs to be capable to take the forces during catapult assisted take off. The ski-jump take off on the other side is basically a normal take off, without major changes necessary for the fighter, which is why it's easier to navalise an Air Force fighter to be used on STOBAR carriers, than to CATOBAR carriers, unless it was designed with structural strengthening from the design stage itself. 

So there are credible changes between naval fighters, depending on take off and landing procedures.

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## rockstarIN

* Tejas SP-1 maiden flight *

#BreakingNews Sources say that Tejas SP1 had its maiden flight today with a Hawk aircraft as chase. As this posts go live, SP-1 is still flying. (Update soon)

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## nik22

As reported by economic times

NEW DELHI: State-owned HAL and DRDO today carried out the maiden sortie of the first LCA Tejas aircraft produced for the Indian Air Force by them in Bengaluru. 

The aircraft named 'Series Production 1' would now undergo a series of trials under the Acceptance Performance Tests before it is handed over to the IAF, DRDO officials said here. 

IAF plans to have four such aircraft in its Bangalore-based Tejas squadron before it starts evaluating them and approves it for final operational clearance, they said. 

The IAF has ordered 40 LCA Mk 1 aircraft and is likely to induct five more squadrons of an advanced version of the aircraft being developed by the DRDO and HAL. 

The aircraft had received initial operational clearance last year and has to get the FOC in next few months before it starts operational flying. 

The aircraft was being manufactured by HAL in partnership with the DRDO over the past several years, and the programme has been long-delayed and has seen several cost and time over-runs. 

HAL has so far built seven LCA aircraft for trial purposes, which have been used to determine the final configuration of the plane to be given to the IAF.

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/517201894993702912

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## Mujraparty

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/517212195268988928

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## indiatester

eowyn said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/517212195268988928


Debugged version == no more bugs?


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## kaykay

indiatester said:


> Debugged version == no more bugs?


Yeah.


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## nik22

indiatester said:


> Debugged version == no more bugs?


Ek tester sirf bugs and defect ke bare me hi sochta Hai 

Personally I do know what that mean for aircraft. Nothing can be called bug free, it is bug free unless found.

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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Debugged version == no more bugs?



Lets say less bugs, since there is still more work to do. The nose and IFR probe are still missing, gun, radar and BVR missiles not integrated and the final goals of the flight performance needs to be certified too, but it's one good step ahead.

More from Tarmak007:



> *Tejas production variant SP-1 makes maiden flight in Bangalore | First flight without telemetry support | Two test variants on 'bombing mission' in Jaisalmer*
> 
> ...The build of the Tejas SP-1 seems to have given the team huge confidence to go for the maiden flight. “We had no corrections to make before and after the flight. This is different from what we were used to on earlier occasions. The production version aircraft is definitely superior on all fronts. We will resume the flight on SP-1 after a week,” the official said....
> While the programme has to travel some more distance before the much-awaited induction into the IAF, two Tejas aircraft from the flight test programme are currently in Jaisalmer undertaking 'bombing mission.' “New weapons (250 kg and 450 kg bombs) are being integrated into the aircraft. The AoA (Angle of Attack) is also coming closer to 26 degrees, which helps the pilot to undertake care-free manoeuvring. In the next there months we are also lining up the aircraft to fire some new missiles as well,” the official said.



Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas production variant SP-1 makes maiden flight in Bangalore | First flight without telemetry support | Two test variants on 'bombing mission' in Jaisalmer

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: More Photos of Tejas SP-1

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## Lord Of Gondor

sancho said:


> Lets say less bugs, since there is still more work to do.


I think that,in this context, it meant that the SP-1 did not have any telemetry equipment on board.


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## thesolar65

sancho said:


> Lets say less bugs, since there is still more work to do. The nose and IFR probe are still missing, gun, radar and BVR missiles not integrated and the final goals of the flight performance needs to be certified too, but it's one good step ahead.
> 
> More from Tarmak007:



Sorry, this is nothing technical as I do not know, but..

Just fifteen minutes ago a guest who is an engineer in HAL visited our house and as we were interacting, he told me that some Indian Private Company's people have started visiting their plants(Koraput) inquiring about targets, liabilities etc. and the rumor in their plant is that HAL is going to be divested by 2018.

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## sancho

thesolar65 said:


> Sorry, this is nothing technical as I do not know, but..
> 
> Just fifteen minutes ago a guest who is an engineer in HAL visited our house and as we were interacting, he told me that some Indian Private Company's people have started visiting their plants(Koraput) inquiring about targets, liabilities etc. and the rumor in their plant is that HAL is going to be divested by 2018.



Maybe it has something to do with the government selling shares of HAL.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Maybe it has something to do with the government selling shares of HAL.


Yes, the IPO price suppose to be 2000-3000, and as per estimations, it will shoot up 4k to 6k within months.


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## sancho

> *India’s Tejas light fighter crosses milestone*
> 
> The first series production example of India’s Tejas Mk1 light combat aircraft (LCA) completed its maiden flight on 30 September. The single-engined aircraft took to the air – without any telemetry support – from Hindustan Aeronautics’ (HAL) airport in Bengaluru, and landed safely after a flight lasting less than 30min...



​India’s Tejas light fighter crosses milestone - 10/2/2014 - Flight Global


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> India’s Tejas light fighter crosses milestone - 10/2/2014 - Flight Global


As per the article, IAF is only interested in mk.2 version since it fulfills its requirements. What would be the fate of mk.1 in that scenario.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> As per the article, IAF is only interested in mk.2 version since it fulfills its requirements. What would be the fate of mk.1 in that scenario.


well just like Jf 17 block 2 fulfill its requirement for PAF, so is LCA Mk2. IAF will operate 40 LCA MK1 with commitment to induct close to 200 units of LCA.

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> well just like Jf 17 block 2 fulfill its requirement for PAF, so is LCA Mk2. IAF will operate 40 LCA MK1 with commitment to induct close to 200 units of LCA.



what???

jf-17 blk 1 not fulfilling PAF requirements? 

care to explain in which department?

by the way, my question was based on the article.


----------



## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> what???
> 
> jf-17 blk 1 not fulfilling PAF requirements?
> 
> care to explain in which department?
> 
> by the way, my question was based on the article.


Then why moving to Block 2 after inducting 50 units 
Block 1 doesn't carry BVR,No IFR etc etc ..

LCA Mk1 FOC standard : IFR, BVR,Hybrid ELTA Radar,AOA 28 while

While IAF asked for in MK2 :
>OBOGS(Oxygen on board oxygen generation system)
>Higher thrust engine
>More internal fuel
>Glass cockpit with touch screen LCD panels(earlier was glass cockpit color MFD)
>Retractable IFR
>Avionics update with AESA radar
>Unified EWS System
>Aerodynamics improvement to increase AOA to 32-35.

Can you post block 2 improvement over here

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Then why moving to Block 2 after inducting 50 units
> Block 1 doesn't carry BVR,No IFR etc etc ..
> 
> LCA Mk1 FOC standard : IFR, BVR,Hybrid ELTA Radar,AOA 28 while
> 
> While IAF asked for in MK2 :
> >OBOGS(Oxygen on board oxygen generation system)
> >Higher thrust engine
> >More internal fuel
> >Glass cockpit with touch screen LCD panels(earlier was glass cockpit color MFD)
> >Retractable IFR
> >Avionics update with AESA radar
> >Unified EWS System
> >Aerodynamics improvement to increase AOA to 32-35.
> 
> Can you post block 2 improvement over here



IFR nope, bvr yes, anyway, keep it on lca. 

The article suggests iaf is not going for mk.1. The question is why.


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> IFR nope, bvr yes, anyway, keep it on lca.
> 
> The article suggests iaf is not going for mk.1. The question is why.




Because they want something that's over kill, hence -



> >OBOGS(Oxygen on board oxygen generation system)
> >Higher thrust engine
> >More internal fuel
> >Glass cockpit with touch screen LCD panels(earlier was glass cockpit color MFD)
> >Retractable IFR
> >Avionics update with AESA radar
> >Unified EWS System
> >Aerodynamics improvement to increase AOA to 32-35.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> IFR nope, bvr yes, anyway, keep it on lca.
> 
> The article suggests iaf is not going for mk.1. The question is why.


Because IAF want LCA to evolve ,keeping itself with current fighter in inventory. After 2020,the aircraft which is going to be in IAF inventory are Rafale,Mirage5k- Mk2, Mig29 UPG, Su 30MkI and FGFA. So need to keep them up with current technology.

Can you please put jf 17 block 2 improvement here.  we gonna keep it on topic discussion.


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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Because IAF want LCA to evolve ,keeping itself with current fighter in inventory. After 2020,the aircraft which is going to be in IAF inventory are Rafale,Mirage5k- Mk2, Mig29 UPG, Su 30MkI and FGFA. So need to keep them up with current technology.
> 
> Can you please put jf 17 block 2 improvement here.  we gonna keep it on topic discussion.




there are many, mostly in radar, ew, IFR and some undisclosed ones.

On topic, th AoA requirement is crazy to say the least. I mean seriously?? 32 AoA will rip the airframe apart. What is IAF thinking for lca mk.2 is beyond me. Secondly, there are some requirements sucb as lcd touch supported screens that sound more like they want fancy interface. Normal lcds are not bad and get the job done.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> there are many, mostly in radar, ew, IFR and some undisclosed ones.
> 
> On topic, th AoA requirement is crazy to say the least. I mean seriously?? 32 AoA will rip the airframe apart. What is IAF thinking for lca mk.2 is beyond me. Secondly, there are some requirements sucb as lcd touch supported screens that sound more like they want fancy interface. Normal lcds are not bad and get the job done.


Well Wind tunnel test shows it can go up to 35 and beyond.Need to find the reliable link though.

BTW current cockpit image.







Cockpit for LCA Mk2

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## Water Car Engineer

GORKHALI said:


> Well Wind tunnel test shows it can go up to 35 and beyond.Need to find the reliable link though.
> 
> BTW current cockpit image.
> 
> View attachment 106193
> 
> 
> Cockpit for LCA Mk2
> View attachment 106194
> 
> View attachment 106195




No, @GORKHALI

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Lord Of Gondor

^Wow!

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## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 106236


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## GORKHALI

Water Car Engineer said:


> No, @GORKHALI
> 
> View attachment 106214


bro..if you look at the both pics its the same,just in LCA Mk2 the display color is white.While ELBIT- HAL JV and SMATEL-THALES JV are competing for supplying their panels for LCA MK2 and Upgraded Su 30MkI which will further dashed to AMCA.

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## genmirajborgza786

Dazzler said:


> IFR nope, bvr yes, anyway, keep it on lca.
> 
> The article suggests iaf is not going for mk.1. The question is why.


there are hundreds of articles written ,after all articles are not* policies* rather *opinions* ,therefore it cannot be taken in to serious considerations, the general norm will usually follow as regards to the MK1, that they will be inducted in complementary supportive roles for the MK2 or may be upgraded to MK2 standards

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## ni8mare

Water Car Engineer said:


> No, @GORKHALI
> 
> View attachment 106214


if you look closely in mk2 mission & display are not separated as in mk1


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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> As per the article, IAF is only interested in mk.2 version since it fulfills its requirements. What would be the fate of mk.1 in that scenario.



The article doesn't say that IAF is not interested in MK1 (which should be evident by the fact that the order was increased to 2 squads), just that the operational requirements demand more capability, which is what the MK2 is meant to offer. That's not surprising, since the MK1 specs were based on older requirements, while the IAF today demands propper 4.5th gen capabilities. If the MK1s will be upgraded later, or simply sold off and replaced by new upgraded versions, as IAF did it with the Su 30s, needs to be seen.


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## 45'22'

HAL upgrades LCA project to boost production 

HAL upgrades LCA project to boost production | idrw.org


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## The_Sidewinder

45'22' said:


> HAL upgrades LCA project to boost production
> 
> HAL upgrades LCA project to boost production | idrw.org



Timely step indeed. Today even IAF chief put forward his concerns about delays regarding both lca & mmrca aquisition.

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## Daedalus

*For Tejas, a Long Way to Go Before it Protects the Indian Skies*

 The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) - Tejas, which has been in the making since 1983 and is expected to join the force by March, 2015, still suffers from some teething problems.

Some of the modifications that IAF has to make on the Tejas include pushing back the cockpit panels by few centimeters to prevent the toes of an ejecting pilot from getting entangled with instruments and aides and adding another 60 centimetres in length to the aircraft body to allow easy access and replacements of critical circuitry. 

Apart from these critical changes, the IAF and State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are in the process of shaving off about 550 kilograms from the aircraft, making it lighter and adding more power to it.

Senior Defence Ministry officials told NDTV that the LCA Mark-I is still somewhat far from being given any operational duty. The aircraft is expected to replace the Russian-made MiG-21 aircrafts which have already been decommissioned.

"There are several changes that are being carried out," senior IAF officials told NDTV.

On Wednesday, the first of the aircraft, built to series production, completed a 25-minute-long sortie. The Tejas LCA is expected to cost the Indian exchequer Rs. 50,000 crore.

Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Arup Raha told reporters today, "I think things will be fall in place. The first limited series production of LCA has already flown based on IOC II (Initial operational clearance). We are sure that teething problems of LCA will get over soon."

Drawing attention to the depleting fighter fleet of the IAF, Air Marshal Raha said that "the draw down has to be prevented by quick induction by induction of LCA and MMRCA." The "draw down" that Air Marshal Raha refers to is the phasing out of legacy planes like the MiG 21.

Sources said several "test points" and operational parameters still need to be validated by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in Bangalore, ensuring that the process would take at least 12 months for completion. The LCA continues to be riddled by inadequacies and problems in integrating its radars and sensors.

"Training manuals, maintenance manuals haven't yet been prepared," an officer said adding that "the IAF expects the first squadron to be available by 2017-18."

Sources told NDTV that prior to the modifications, pilots with shoe size nine or above would have found it impossible to eject in an emergency.

"The feet would get stuck preventing a clean bail out," the officer said. 

Also, critical circuits and parts that could require replacements were placed so deep inside the aircraft body that the turn-around time between sorties varied between two to three hours - considered to be exceptionally long. 

"The length of the aircraft was increased to rearrange the circuits and parts to allow easy access and faster replacement," the officer added.

The first squadron of the LCA Tejas is scheduled to be based in Sulur in Tamil Nadu. 

"Since there are several issues that need to be sorted, the first few jets will be based in Bangalore alongside Hal to allow for faster problem solving," officials said.

Sources said that the IAF is pinning its hopes not on the LCA Mark I but on advanced LCA (Mark-II) to replace its ageing fleet of MiG-21 variants. The LCA Mark-II or second generation of LCA is expected to have a better design besides a more powerful engine - General Electric GE-414. This is expected to generate as much as 90-96 kN thrust as against the current engines - GE-IN20 which generate only about 80-85kN thrust. 

The LCA Mark-II is scheduled for flight trials by 2018. The IAF, however, feels that trials will be delayed by at least two if not three years as the current platform will have to undergo major re-engineering to accommodate the heavier GE 414 engines.
For Tejas, a Long Way to Go Before it Protects the Indian Skies


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## Malik Alashter

So when will India induct the LCA it's been long time since this project start also what about kaviry if I write it right.


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## halupridol

> The LCA Mark-II is scheduled for flight trials by 2018. The IAF, however, feels that trials will be delayed by at least two if not three years as the current platform will have to undergo major re-engineering to accommodate the heavier GE 414 engines.


if everyone knows they will need more time....i wonder why even announce 2018 for tests,,,


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Malik Alashter said:


> So when will India induct the LCA it's been long time since this project start also what about kaviry if I write it right.



probably by 2018? kaveri engine is a dead bird... i believe now an american engine would power lca.

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## 45'22'

Malik Alashter said:


> So when will India induct the LCA it's been long time since this project start also what about kaviry if I write it right.


The first squadron of tejas mk1 will be operational by 2017 and the first flight of mk2 is expected in 2017-18 but it can get delayed by some 2-3 years

Kaveri is dead I guess

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## Malik Alashter

45'22' said:


> The first squadron of tejas mk1 will be operational by 2017 and the first flight of mk2 is expected in 2017-18 but it can get delayed by some 2-3 years
> 
> Kaveri is dead I guess


Sad to hear that. kaveri is a dead project.


----------



## Badbadman

Daedalus said:


> *For Tejas, a Long Way to Go Before it Protects the Indian Skies*
> 
> The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) - Tejas, which has been in the making since 1983 and is expected to join the force by March, 2015, still suffers from some teething problems.
> 
> Some of the modifications that IAF has to make on the Tejas include *pushing back the cockpit panels by few centimeters to prevent the toes of an ejecting pilot from getting entangled with instruments and aides and adding another 60 centimetres in length to the aircraft body to allow easy access and replacements of critical circuitry. *
> 
> .
> 
> * Also, critical circuits and parts that could require replacements were placed so deep inside the aircraft body that the turn-around time between sorties varied between two to three hours - considered to be exceptionally long. *
> 
> 
> For Tejas, a Long Way to Go Before it Protects the Indian Skies


Things like these what they finding out would not be repeated in mk2 and any further projects we gonna take, hence reducing delays. 
The biggest advantage of building something from scratch.


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## sancho

Malik Alashter said:


> Sad to hear that. kaveri is a dead project.



It's not dead at all, just de-linked from LCA at the moment and aimed on other applications. AURA UCAV and possibly Mig 29Ks in the long run, even replacing the US engines on the LCAs might be a option for the future.


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## 45'22'

sancho said:


> It's not dead at all, just de-linked from LCA at the moment and aimed on other applications. AURA UCAV and possibly Mig 29Ks in the long run, even replacing the US engines on the LCAs might be a option for the future.


Are we collaborating with the French for kaveri development??????


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## Trawllu

45'22' said:


> Are we collaborating with the French for kaveri development??????



no



Badbadman said:


> Things like these what they finding out would not be repeated in mk2 and any further projects we gonna take, hence reducing delays.
> The biggest advantage of building something from scratch.




that was found out and resolved ages ago

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## sancho

45'22' said:


> Are we collaborating with the French for kaveri development??????



Not as far as I know, the Kaveri-Snecma proposal was rejected by IAF, because they wanted DRDO to keep working on indigenous engine developments. Didn't heared about another relation to any French company and Kaveri so far.

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## Trawllu

sancho said:


> The article doesn't say that IAF is not interested in MK1 (which should be evident by the fact that the order was increased to 2 squads), just that the operational requirements demand more capability, which is what the MK2 is meant to offer. That's not surprising, since the MK1 specs were based on older requirements, while the IAF today demands propper 4.5th gen capabilities. If the MK1s will be upgraded later, or simply sold off and replaced by new upgraded versions, as IAF did it with the Su 30s, needs to be seen.




it is thanks to IN that we are even speaking about tejas Mk2 

IAF had almost done it in - now they are simply latching onto Navy initiative


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## ni8mare

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518633447779090433

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518633081725415424

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## Malik Alashter

I have question which is why not nation like india or some others. develop the russian engines like r-25 or the al-21 or r-35.

My imagination about the development is simple keep the design but increase the overall pressure to double and use fadic if you can.

is that possible or not just asking.


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## skynet

ni8mare said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518633447779090433
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518633081725415424


Great


----------



## The Huskar

Malik Alashter said:


> I have question which is why not nation like india or some others. develop the russian engines like r-25 or the al-21 or r-35.
> 
> My imagination about the development is simple keep the design but increase the overall pressure to double and use fadic if you can.
> 
> is that possible or not just asking.


No that easy buddy.Aside from economic backlash from engine developing country,developing upon a ancient structure is more of a complex task than developing one

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## jarves

Malik Alashter said:


> I have question which is why not nation like india or some others. develop the russian engines like r-25 or the al-21 or r-35.
> 
> My imagination about the development is simple keep the design but increase the overall pressure to double and use fadic if you can.
> 
> is that possible or not just asking.


No offence but i cant understand a sentence of what you have posted.


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## The Huskar

jarves said:


> No offence but i cant understand a sentence of what you have posted.


He was referring to the development of existing engines.


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## Malik Alashter

jarves said:


> No offence but i cant understand a sentence of what you have posted.


I'm sorry I think I have problem with writing.

but any way I try to say. Cant a country like India improving the Russian engines to a new level by increasing the overall pressure.

like improving some Russian engines like r-25 or r-35 or al-20 to bring them to same level of the modern engines.

unfortunately that's all I can offer in regards to writing some understood comment if you can't understand this then don't expect from me a better writing.


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## 45'22'

Malik Alashter said:


> I'm sorry I think I have problem with writing.
> 
> but any way I try to say. Cant a country like India improving the Russian engines to a new level by increasing the overall pressure.
> 
> like improving some Russian engines like r-25 or r-35 or al-20 to bring them to same level of the modern engines.
> 
> unfortunately that's all I can offer in regards to writing some understood comment if you can't understand this then don't expect from me a better writing.


It's okay brother
Not a problem at all

The answer to ur question is no
We can't improve the engine the way you are saying
Reverse engineering is also not that easy

So,it's gonna take a little more time but we are going to have it sooner or later....

U r from which place brother????


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## Malik Alashter

45'22' said:


> It's okay brother
> Not a problem at all
> 
> The answer to ur question is no
> We can't improve the engine the way you are saying
> Reverse engineering is also not that easy
> 
> So,it's gonna take a little more time but we are going to have it sooner or later....
> 
> U r from which place brother????


Iraq.

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## FNFAL

@Malik Alashter 
As said by @45'22' , the biggest chalenge in reverse engg is metallurgy and qualityf of blades and other components.
Building an engine is one thing, reliability with decent hours for engine life is another thing, The best example would be chinese experience with ther WS engines. They simply have too short an engine life
Matter of fact, russina.soviet engine have an engine life shorter than western counterparts.

Metallurgy in engine building is a closedly guarded secret that no nation wants to share with others barring trearties.

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## Malik Alashter

FNFAL said:


> @Malik Alashter
> As said by @45'22' , the biggest chalenge in reverse engg is metallurgy and qualityf of blades and other components.
> Building an engine is one thing, reliability with decent hours for engine life is another thing, The best example would be chinese experience with ther WS engines. They simply have too short an engine life
> Matter of fact, russina.soviet engine have an engine life shorter than western counterparts.
> 
> Metallurgy in engine building is a closedly guarded secret that no nation wants to share with others barring trearties.


See I'm not engineer but I read from the net so I think the best bet for that matter is ceramics there are some ceramics that can be used as a heat barrier which the Russians use in their modern engines.


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## FNFAL

Malik Alashter said:


> See I'm not engineer but I read from the net so I think the best bet for that matter is ceramics there are some ceramics that can be used as a heat barrier which the Russians use in their modern engines.


Umm i was talking more in general sense of the engine blades- we could have got single crystal supperalloy secrets withe EF deal...


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## ni8mare

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518715461010067456

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## SanjeevaniButi

ni8mare said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/518715461010067456



Not true. Indian media had reported that pilots with feets like these cannot eject safely.


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## ni8mare

SanjeevaniButi said:


> Not true. Indian media had reported that pilots with feets like these cannot eject safely.
> 
> View attachment 112891


in response to that he said thiis...


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## ni8mare

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/519536716051275777

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## drunken-monke

Breaking... IAF chief said that First squadron of LCA would be formed by 2017 and FOC would be given in another 6 months.. He said that LCA is excellent aircraft and we are proud of it..

He gave this interview to DD news

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## nik22

drunken-monke said:


> Breaking... IAF chief said that First squadron of LCA would be formed by 2017 and FOC would be given in another 6 months.. He said that* LCA is excellent aircraft and we are proud of it*..
> 
> He gave this interview to DD news


wow, seriously?
Glad he is not like previous IAF chiefs


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## jarves

ni8mare said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/519536716051275777


This EW suite has been jointly devloped with Israel.

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## ni8mare

jarves said:


> This EW suite has been jointly devloped with Israel.


if its true than good .....this should be always be done....than making every thing alone..


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## ni8mare

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/519855950715707392

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## rockstarIN

Tejas coming out as a beast at last...achieving every mile stones, new EW suit..wow

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## Storm Force

really happy 

we are starting mark one with hi end ew suites very efficent usa engines and mix or indian israel and russian weapons.

very low rcs and way cheaper to buy and operate then our other meduim and heavey fighters.

Just like PAF are replacing their F7 with thunders the tejas will replace or MIGS 21/27 in one v one basis

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## jarves

ni8mare said:


> if its true than good .....this should be always be done....than making every thing alone..


100% true.
Source is annual PDF report(2013-2014) of MOD.

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## nomi007

HAL ka be koi " HAL " nai hai

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## 45'22'

jarves said:


> 100% true.
> Source is annual PDF report(2013-2014) of MOD.


Have any ideas on what would be the unit cost of mk1 ???


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## ni8mare

jarves said:


> 100% true.
> Source is annual PDF report(2013-2014) of MOD.


what ever ...........its good actually.......


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## ejaz007

*LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help*

India reportedly looking at replacing HAL for Mk.2 production. What are the policy arguments, risks, and opportunities?

*Oct 4/14: Industrial.* Defense News quotes an unnamed source, who says that the Indian government has been talking to major private sector industrial players about setting up a full production line for up to 250 Tejas Mk.2s. That would certainly justify the investment.

If carried out, that move would sidestep HAL’s production difficulties (q.v. Dec 9/12) by partly or wholly removing Tejas from HAL’s purview, create a full competitor to HAL in the aerospace sector, and turn the winner into India’s 1st major private sector defense firm. It would also double planned Tejas Mk.2/naval buys, based on past reports (q.v. Jan 11/14).

Since it seems apparent that the Indian government would have to fund a new production line for HAL anyway, funding the line elsewhere and reaping the benefits of diversification and competition is a logical policy option. Especially since the resulting competitor would also be a potential source for programs like India’s light transport competition, which stalled out because the private sector can’t afford to set up a full production facility for just 40 planes.

The challenge is that setting up a production line for modern combat jets isn’t simple, and major problems could really mess with already chancy schedules for Tejas Mk.2 and the planned naval variant. One obvious way to reduce this risk would be to bring in a foreign firm like Boeing, Saab, Dassault, et. al. to help set up the plant, and assist with management for the first few years. If done in conjunction with Mk.2 design assistance (q.v. June 17/14), the Tejas program as a whole could get a substantial boost.

Tata Group, Mahindra & Mahindra and Larsen and Toubro have been mentioned, and L&T Heavy Engineering President Madhukar Vinayak Kotwal has confirmed that discussions are taking place, but that’s all he is prepared to say. Watch this space. Sources: Defense News, “India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly”.

LCA Tejas: An Indian Fighter – With Foreign Help

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## sancho

Atocal said:


> Is the ejection issue still there?
> 
> The pilot's feet hitting instruments while ejecting and helmet hitting canopy while ejecting.
> 
> I think it should be illegal to fly Tejas unless these problems are resolved.



Check this:

HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 666


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## SanjeevaniButi

45'22' said:


> Have any ideas on what would be the unit cost of mk1 ???



It was mentioned as Rs. 160 crores per aircraft, which translates to 26.2 Million $  

Earlier it was INR 120 Crores per aircraft which was 20 million $

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## 45'22'

Atocal said:


> Is the ejection issue still there?
> 
> The pilot's feet hitting instruments while ejecting and helmet hitting canopy while ejecting.
> 
> I think it should be illegal to fly Tejas unless these problems are resolved.


According to saurav jha's tweet....
There is "no" ejection issue with the HAL tejas MK-1. And there is no weight reduction target for the Mk-1 either

Got this from BR


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## sancho

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> Are they cradling the designs to mold as India's indigenous fighters or willing to scrap it if the Finance Ministry has the $ to buy western fighters?



It's not going to be scrapped, it's far too important as a project for India and the aero industry and with the recent steps forward, there is no reason to stop it. They are making changes to reach FOC and the first fighters are in production, what's more important though is, how the MK2 development will go on. If they keep it simple, they might be able to keep the time lines, if they try to make too much out of it again, we will see delays again and that might work against additional LCAs beyond the current orders.


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## Mujraparty

Bangalore mirror has entire page dedicated to LCA tejas, lots of Info ...

apologise for crappy camera ..

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## kaykay

eowyn said:


> Bangalore mirror has entire page dedicated to LCA tejas, lots of Info ...
> 
> apologise for crappy camera ..
> View attachment 126720
> 
> View attachment 126721


If you are talking about this article?
The last jet-engine laugh - Bangalore Mirror

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## he-man

eowyn said:


> Bangalore mirror has entire page dedicated to LCA tejas, lots of Info ...
> 
> apologise for crappy camera ..
> View attachment 126720
> 
> View attachment 126721
> 
> View attachment 126746




tejas can wait.
ur priority should be a good camera right now dude.

lol

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## SQ8

@sancho @Abingdonboy 
Help, quick.. Possible Tejas loadouts?


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## kurup

Oscar said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy
> Help, quick.. Possible Tejas loadouts?

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## SQ8

So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?


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## kurup

Oscar said:


> So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?



As of now NO .

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?










Since its weight is only 96 k.g, it can be fitted, not in wing tips though.


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## PakEye

The Huskar said:


> No that easy buddy.Aside from economic backlash from engine developing country,developing upon a ancient structure is more of a complex task than developing one





45'22' said:


> It's okay brother Not a problem at allThe answer to ur question is noWe can't improve the engine the way you are saying Reverse engineering is also not that easy So,it's gonna take a little more time but we are going to have it sooner or later....U r from which place brother????





jarves said:


> No offence but i cant understand a sentence of what you have posted.


if China is working on ws-13 than the Question is valid ???


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## halfilhal

LCA is not going to take up air superiority missions. It will be a point defense fighter and a bit more.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?



Smaller self protection EW pods might be possible, but the aim was to integrate the EWS and not carry it on external pods as in the past for older fighters. Rocket pods only at the midwing or inner hardpoints.


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## SQ8

What possible squadron could be the first to receive the Tejas?


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## kurup

Oscar said:


> What possible squadron could be the first to receive the Tejas?



Sulur Airbase , Tamil Nadu .


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## SQ8

kurup said:


> Sulur Airbase , Tamil Nadu .


Currently Sulur has a An32 sq and Mi-17s. what squadron could it be? 35sq is still persisting with the Type 96 I think.. perhaps that might be the first to go?


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Currently Sulur has a An32 sq and Mi-17s. what squadron could it be? 35sq is still persisting with the Type 96 I think.. perhaps that might be the first to go?





Oscar said:


> What possible squadron could be the first to receive the Tejas?




AFAIK the IAF is raising an entirely new SQD for the LCA, for the first 1-2 years this SQD will remain in Bangalore (close to HAL) to address any teething issues before shifting "home" to Sulur where they are likely to be joined by the second Mk.1 LCA SQD.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> AFAIK the IAF is raising an entirely new SQD for the LCA, for the first 1-2 years this SQD will remain in Bangalore (close to HAL) to address any teething issues before shifting "home" to Sulur where they are likely to be joined by the second Mk.1 LCA SQD.


Well, I guess then Ill leave out the squadron markings for this while I play around with it.
I'm guessing I may be the only one with a simulator environment where you can fly:

PAF Current/Future: F-16(Block-52,MLU,ADF), JF-17(Block-I,II, Two seater), Mirage(IIIE/D/R/ROSE , VP,PA,ROSE),
F-7(MP,PG,Trainer variants), K-8P , Allouette, Mi-17 . J-31
Flyable as well but usually AI: C-130B/E, Il-78,Saab-2000AEW, ZDK-03, Dassault Falcon
PA: Cobra, Chetak, Mi-17

PAF Historic: Hawker Tempest/Fury, Supermarine Attacker, F-86 E/F, Martin B-57, Shenyang F-6/C, Q-5 Fantan, F-7P T-6G


IAF Current/Future: FGFA, Su-30MKI, Rafale C/B, Mirage-2000C/5, Mig-29(M/UPG), HAL Tejas mk-I, Mig-27M/UPG, Mig-21(Type-88/Bison), Jaguar IN M/S(DARIN), Chetak, Mi-17,Mi-35, Apache, Bae Hawk Mk-132

IA: Mi-17,Mi-8
IN: Sea Harrier FRS.51/ LUSH , Mig-29K, Sea King Mk-45
Also flyable but usually left to AI: Il-78, An-32, Il-38, Tu-95, P-8 Poseidon,C-130J,C-17

IAF Historic: Hawker Spitfire/Hurricane/Tempest , DH Vampire FB52, Dassault Oursgan , Mystere, Hawker Hunter F.56 ,Folland Gnat/HAL Ajeet, Mig-21 F/FL , Mig-23MF Bahadur, Mig-23BN, HAL Marut, Sukhoi Type S-22 Fitter, EE Canberra, Mig-25, Fairchild 119 Boxcar.

All over fairly well detailed and accurate area of the Indo/Pak theatre.. not just the western front but also the eastern front. 

its the little things that count.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Well, I guess then Ill leave out the squadron markings for this while I play around with it.
> I'm guessing I may be the only one with a simulator environment where you can fly:
> 
> PAF Current/Future: F-16(Block-52,MLU,ADF), JF-17(Block-I,II, Two seater), Mirage(IIIE/D/R/ROSE , VP,PA,ROSE),
> F-7(MP,PG,Trainer variants), K-8P , Allouette, Mi-17 . J-31
> Flyable as well but usually AI: C-130B/E, Il-78,Saab-2000AEW, ZDK-03, Dassault Falcon
> PA: Cobra, Chetak, Mi-17
> 
> PAF Historic: Hawker Tempest/Fury, Supermarine Attacker, F-86 E/F, Martin B-57, Shenyang F-6/C, Q-5 Fantan, F-7P T-6G
> 
> 
> IAF Current/Future: FGFA, Su-30MKI, Rafale C/B, Mirage-2000C/5, Mig-29(M/UPG), HAL Tejas mk-I, Mig-27M/UPG, Mig-21(Type-88/Bison), Jaguar IN M/S(DARIN), Chetak, Mi-17,Mi-35, Apache, Bae Hawk Mk-132
> 
> IA: Mi-17,Mi-8
> IN: Sea Harrier FRS.51/ LUSH , Mig-29K, Sea King Mk-45
> Also flyable but usually left to AI: Il-78, An-32, Il-38, Tu-95, P-8 Poseidon,C-130J,C-17
> 
> IAF Historic: Hawker Spitfire/Hurricane/Tempest , DH Vampire FB52, Dassault Oursgan , Mystere, Hawker Hunter F.56 ,Folland Gnat/HAL Ajeet, Mig-21 F/FL , Mig-23MF Bahadur, Mig-23BN, HAL Marut, Sukhoi Type S-22 Fitter, EE Canberra, Mig-25, Fairchild 119 Boxcar.
> 
> All over fairly well detailed and accurate area of the Indo/Pak theatre.. not just the western front but also the eastern front.
> 
> its the little things that count.
> View attachment 128226
> 
> View attachment 128225


Very nice images!

Anyway you could have an IAF PHALCON AWACS with MKI/Rafale escorts? Or IAF C-130-30Js tanking from an IAF IL-78MKI/A330 MRTT?


Also, afaik, the IAF don't have SQD markings on their planes anyway.


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## Water Car Engineer

Oscar said:


> View attachment 128226
> 
> View attachment 128225




Nice work, but give FOC tejas with a re fueling probe.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Very nice images!
> 
> Anyway you could have an IAF PHALCON AWACS with MKI/Rafale escorts? Or IAF C-130-30Js tanking from an IAF IL-78MKI/A330 MRTT?
> 
> 
> Also, afaik, the IAF don't have SQD markings on their planes anyway.



These are all screen shots. Again, you dont get the bloom and HDR(well you can but I havent done that bit yet) that you get in DCS or otherwise.. and perhaps not the uber realistic avionics in the cockpit.. but the aircraft fly true and fight realistically.

For e.g. I can simulate a mission where essentially A combined IAF package of M2Ks, MKIs(SEAD and ESCORT) along with Jaguars performing BDA meet up with an interceptor force of F-16MLUs, JF-17s and F-7PGs over Kharian. There are simulated datalinks and AWACS as well so nothing really gets left out.

These are simulated based on variables and equations so not the best gauge but a good paper fight.. and the results are rather interesting. 

The FGFA is going to be single seater as well AFAIK.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> The FGFA is going to be single seater as well AFAIK.


Yes, this is almost certain at this moment in time. 



Oscar said:


> These are all screen shots. Again, you dont get the bloom and HDR(well you can but I havent done that bit yet) that you get in DCS or otherwise.. and perhaps not the uber realistic avionics in the cockpit.. but the aircraft fly true and fight realistically.
> For e.g. I can simulate a mission where essentially A combined IAF package of M2Ks, MKIs(SEAD and ESCORT) along with Jaguars performing BDA meet up with an interceptor force of F-16MLUs, JF-17s and F-7PGs over Kharian. There are simulated datalinks and AWACS as well so nothing really gets left out.


Wow, really cool stuff!


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## SQ8

Water Car Engineer said:


> Nice work, but give FOC tejas with a re fueling probe.



All wait to find a Mk.2 with the Levcons before that is added.


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## Water Car Engineer

Oscar said:


> All wait to find a Mk.2 with the Levcons before that is added.



There wont actually be levcons on any airforce Tejas, mark 1 FOC model will have refueling probe.

The naval one is a one seater with levcons.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## RKO

Oscar said:


> Well, I guess then Ill leave out the squadron markings for this while I play around with it.
> I'm guessing I may be the only one with a simulator environment where you can fly:
> 
> PAF Current/Future: F-16(Block-52,MLU,ADF), JF-17(Block-I,II, Two seater), Mirage(IIIE/D/R/ROSE , VP,PA,ROSE),
> F-7(MP,PG,Trainer variants), K-8P , Allouette, Mi-17 . J-31
> Flyable as well but usually AI: C-130B/E, Il-78,Saab-2000AEW, ZDK-03, Dassault Falcon
> PA: Cobra, Chetak, Mi-17
> 
> PAF Historic: Hawker Tempest/Fury, Supermarine Attacker, F-86 E/F, Martin B-57, Shenyang F-6/C, Q-5 Fantan, F-7P T-6G
> 
> 
> IAF Current/Future: FGFA, Su-30MKI, Rafale C/B, Mirage-2000C/5, Mig-29(M/UPG), HAL Tejas mk-I, Mig-27M/UPG, Mig-21(Type-88/Bison), Jaguar IN M/S(DARIN), Chetak, Mi-17,Mi-35, Apache, Bae Hawk Mk-132
> 
> IA: Mi-17,Mi-8
> IN: Sea Harrier FRS.51/ LUSH , Mig-29K, Sea King Mk-45
> Also flyable but usually left to AI: Il-78, An-32, Il-38, Tu-95, P-8 Poseidon,C-130J,C-17
> 
> IAF Historic: Hawker Spitfire/Hurricane/Tempest , DH Vampire FB52, Dassault Oursgan , Mystere, Hawker Hunter F.56 ,Folland Gnat/HAL Ajeet, Mig-21 F/FL , Mig-23MF Bahadur, Mig-23BN, HAL Marut, Sukhoi Type S-22 Fitter, EE Canberra, Mig-25, Fairchild 119 Boxcar.
> 
> All over fairly well detailed and accurate area of the Indo/Pak theatre.. not just the western front but also the eastern front.
> 
> its the little things that count.
> View attachment 128226
> 
> View attachment 128225


how to get this cool stuff???


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## The_Sidewinder

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.



Best of luck junior. But its not the appropriate section for your post, you should post the same in members introduction section. 
Alop with your grades, I hope you are hitting the gym hard, coz to be a pilot you need extreme level of physical fitness.

Anyway, sport is also critical factor in developing your fitness both mental & physical.. Wishing you a bright future ahead.
regards


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## Chakram Indian

Oscar said:


> Well, I guess then Ill leave out the squadron markings for this while I play around with it.
> I'm guessing I may be the only one with a simulator environment where you can fly:
> 
> PAF Current/Future: F-16(Block-52,MLU,ADF), JF-17(Block-I,II, Two seater), Mirage(IIIE/D/R/ROSE , VP,PA,ROSE),
> F-7(MP,PG,Trainer variants), K-8P , Allouette, Mi-17 . J-31
> Flyable as well but usually AI: C-130B/E, Il-78,Saab-2000AEW, ZDK-03, Dassault Falcon
> PA: Cobra, Chetak, Mi-17
> 
> PAF Historic: Hawker Tempest/Fury, Supermarine Attacker, F-86 E/F, Martin B-57, Shenyang F-6/C, Q-5 Fantan, F-7P T-6G
> 
> 
> IAF Current/Future: FGFA, Su-30MKI, Rafale C/B, Mirage-2000C/5, Mig-29(M/UPG), HAL Tejas mk-I, Mig-27M/UPG, Mig-21(Type-88/Bison), Jaguar IN M/S(DARIN), Chetak, Mi-17,Mi-35, Apache, Bae Hawk Mk-132
> 
> IA: Mi-17,Mi-8
> IN: Sea Harrier FRS.51/ LUSH , Mig-29K, Sea King Mk-45
> Also flyable but usually left to AI: Il-78, An-32, Il-38, Tu-95, P-8 Poseidon,C-130J,C-17
> 
> IAF Historic: Hawker Spitfire/Hurricane/Tempest , DH Vampire FB52, Dassault Oursgan , Mystere, Hawker Hunter F.56 ,Folland Gnat/HAL Ajeet, Mig-21 F/FL , Mig-23MF Bahadur, Mig-23BN, HAL Marut, Sukhoi Type S-22 Fitter, EE Canberra, Mig-25, Fairchild 119 Boxcar.
> 
> All over fairly well detailed and accurate area of the Indo/Pak theatre.. not just the western front but also the eastern front.
> 
> its the little things that count.
> View attachment 128226
> timeframe
> View attachment 128225




you forgot a few sqds of rudra inservice with IA /IAF currently while you are counting the current if you count chetaks you should also include ALH dhruvs and for future you should also include LCH - light combat helicopter 

and in 3-4 yrs timeframe LUH - light Utility helicopter which will replace Cheetahs and chetaks


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## Chakram Indian

Atocal said:


> 156 crore? Thats way off the mark that newspapers got it dead wrong.
> 
> Its 200 crore+ and right now bvr, mid-air refeuling are yet to be installed. Could be in the 220-235 crore range for FOC squadron.



BVR is not to be installed the capability is already there what it requires is integrating and testing 

integrating means making few communicaition enablers changes in source codes and testing it dosent involve any monetary costs (not major costs anyway)



Oscar said:


> All wait to find a Mk.2 with the Levcons before that is added.


\
no levcons for IAF MK2 

levcons only for navy even in Mk2



Atocal said:


> Any chance of both mk1 squadrons getting inducted before 2020? Given rate of production is 4-8 and 2015 is nearing.




the production capacity is 

8+8+16 

now 4 will be delivered in 2015 march 
8 in 2016 march 
16 will be delivered in 2017 

so 20 Ioc 2 config will be delivered by 2017

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## Chakram Indian

Oscar said:


> So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?




of course it can carry those 

the pother loadouts are of long time back as will

there is a surpprise 

tejas in future will also carry 
1. Longer range version of Nag / Helina and current Nag / Helina in anti armour roles 

But the days of rocket posds and cannon starfing of ground are gone



Oscar said:


> So no chances of a Rocket pod or any A2G or electronic ordnance on the wingtip stations?



EW suite and ECM suite will be inbuilt not to be carried externally



nik22 said:


> wow, seriously?
> Glad he is not like previous IAF chiefs




some hard truths have been drilled home in his head by new govt

Tejas is not only an Indegenous fighter Aircraft 

it is a wholesale indegenous fighting and Delivery Platforms 

Conisder thses 

Tejas - Indian 
Radar - Israel Backend + indian Frontend + Aesa Indian (mk2 )
FCS indian 
Composite tech Indian 
EW suite Indian 
ECM Indian 

A2A 
BVR Astra2 Indian
WVR Astra1 Indian 

A2G
Smart Bombs Indian
PGM Indian

Anti Armour 
Nag / Helina indian 

Surprise for 2017-18 

Mk2 will be able to carry Brahmos _ M air launched - 50% indian

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## SQ8

Livery based upon Mig-21FL (Type-77) Scheme used by 1st Squadron "Tigers". Suits the Tejas well in my view.Who can guess the weapons on it?

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## Water Car Engineer

@Oscar 

Astra mk1, Derby, R-73

Im not so good at this.

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## Storm Force

God dam that cgi looks cool of tejas


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## IndoUS

Oscar said:


> Livery based upon Mig-21FL (Type-77) Scheme used by 1st Squadron "Tigers". Suits the Tejas well in my view.Who can guess the weapons on it?
> 
> View attachment 130800
> 
> View attachment 130799
> 
> View attachment 130798


What software are you using?


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## Water Car Engineer

Single Seat Naval LCA

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> These are all screen shots. Again, you dont get the bloom and HDR(well you can but I havent done that bit yet) that you get in DCS or otherwise.. and perhaps not the uber realistic avionics in the cockpit.. but the aircraft fly true and fight realistically.
> 
> For e.g. I can simulate a mission where essentially A combined IAF package of M2Ks, MKIs(SEAD and ESCORT) along with Jaguars performing BDA meet up with an interceptor force of F-16MLUs, JF-17s and F-7PGs over Kharian. There are simulated datalinks and AWACS as well so nothing really gets left out.
> 
> These are simulated based on variables and equations so not the best gauge but a good paper fight.. and the results are rather interesting.
> 
> The FGFA is going to be single seater as well AFAIK.



Lol, how come you have so much free time for this stuff?


----------



## Raul_AD

Chakram Indian said:


> the production capacity is
> 
> 8+8+16
> 
> now 4 will be delivered in 2015 march
> 8 in 2016 march
> 16 will be delivered in 2017
> 
> so 20 Ioc 2 config will be delivered by 2017


 
Delivering first Aircraft well within 10 months from achieving IOC-2 in month of Dec'13 is itself is very credible. With Production Capacity of 8 per year, HAL production line is all set to deliver new Tejas every 1.5 months. First delivered in Sept'14, first batch of 20 can be delivered by March'17 at this rate.
With receiving Quarts Radome & IFR from Cobham in Nov'14 and pending Gun trials which can be very well completed well within 3-6 months atmost i.e. Mar'15 to Jun'15.
Production can be speeded up to full capacity of 16 aircraft per year, after June'15 which can very well deliver first batch of IOC-2 standard 20 aircraft before end of March-16, and 2nd batch of 20 FOC standard can be delivered before March'18.
It is upto IAF to decide how many aircraft of Tajes MK-I standard they want if, they ready to deploy up to 80, they can get all them well upto 2020.
By this time Tejas MK-II will be ready for Deployment, it's all upto IAF to decide what they want. By supporting Tejas they can very easily get 80+ new aircraft well within 5 years. Afterall choices is of IAF.
If they want to go with Rafale, if deal is signed in 2015 then first Rafale will not arrive before 2018. By then they can get whole batch of Tejas MK-I of 40 aircraft. Thereafter they will receive 8 aircraft per year which will take 16 Years (year 2034) to get whole fleet of 126 air craft. Or else they can get 160 Tejas (80 MK-I+80 MK-II) well within 10 years (upto 2025) with set manufacturing capacity of 16 aircraft per year. Which can be readily increased (upto 16+16) whenever IAF want, which means 80 MKI + 160 MK-II = 240 by 2025.


----------



## SQ8

*On the subject of what if schemes(since there is not much news going on about the Tejas. There was a particular Mig-21 display scheme which always intrigued me and I thought the Tejas would look smashing in it.*












*And now to what I really wanted to do, was to ruin your day(or make it if you have rather twisted ideas).. The fin flag placement is wholly unintentional. *

*



*

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## indiatester

Oscar said:


> *And now to what I really wanted to do, was to ruin your day(or make it if you have rather twisted ideas).. The fin flag placement is wholly unintentional. *
> 
> *
> View attachment 134872
> *



  

Oscar you better mind it.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> *On the subject of what if schemes*



Any chance to see a digital scheme like these:

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## The_Sidewinder

Oscar said:


> *
> 
> 
> And now to what I really wanted to do, was to ruin your day(or make it if you have rather twisted ideas).. The fin flag placement is wholly unintentional.
> 
> 
> View attachment 134872
> *


*

hillarious mate, how did you come up with something like that. OMG*



sancho said:


> Any chance to see a digital scheme like these:
> 
> View attachment 135696
> 
> 
> View attachment 135698



Tejas one looks too flashy compared to lch.


----------



## SQ8

*


sancho said:



Any chance to see a digital scheme like these:

Click to expand...

*
*As requested*


*Kyaukpyu, Burma. September 14th, 2020, 1030 hrs local time: *
*Integrated Battle Group East , Operation "Tēj rakṣhak" तेज रक्षक. *

*As part of its intervention to prevent the genocide of Rohingya refugees fleeing the military Junta and preventing the flood of seaborne refugees pouring into India; the Indian government has deployed IBG east in its Sub-B force level deployment. This included Su-30MKI's from Tezpur AFS and a squadron of Tejas Mk.1s being forward deployed to Kalaikunda AFS. In addition, the 107th Airlift squadron with its Mi-8S was tasked to provide airlift support to elements of the Indian Army being deployed in the operation. The Vikramaditya CVBG had set sail but was delayed by a day due to logistical issues and would arrive 12 hours later. *

*The opening phase of the operation included attacks by Su-30MKI squadrons targeting key infrastructure along the Burmese coast to prevent the Burmese Army from effective movement against the fleeing refugees. Teams of SFF and Para Commandos that were inserted the day before by both Helicopter and Airdrop were were providing both reconnaissance and targeting for these strikes that were carried out the night before. *

*Results were sketchy at best as the Burmese used effective Makeshift and MT-69 Bridges along shallower areas of the swamp and marsh land to move their troops ever closer to both the refugees and the Indian forward teams. In light of this the IBG Command indicated its intent to carry out interdiction sorties against Burmese Armoured groups rolling along the smaller beaches/sanddune areas whilst simultaneously landing a combined force of Assam & 11th Gorkha via Helidrop into the outskirts of Kyaukpyu to secure the city and the fleeing Rohingya refugees within it. *

*As part of the air operations, The newly raised Tejas detachment at Kalaikunda was to carry out a battlefield interdiction sortie using newer operational tactics of mixed weapon carriage to provide full spectrum air support. The Su-30 squadron from Tezpur would carry out Air to Air Escort duties. While the Burmese Air Force only existed on paper it was rumoured to be mustering a small section of L-39Cs armed with second and third generation IR missiles to put up some feeble defence. There were also rumours of UN and Civilian personnel fleeing the area in small civilian aircraft so the rules of engagement were strictly defined to be Visual I.D: Engage only after confirming identity of target. T.oT was 1030hrs (10:30 AM) local time.*


*As part of the mixed loadout, the four-ship flight carried different air to ground mixes which included.*

*4 x Helina Missiles in Launch Tubes, 3 x Anti-Material/Anti-Tank cluster munitions, Rafael Litening III Targeting Pods **and 1 x Matra BGL-400 LGB. A Asymmetric loadout allowed the carriage of greater weapons variety and load and the right Wet tank loaded with a Wing tank for extra fuel. *

*



*

*



*

*The Second Aircraft carried Matra 155 Rocket pods along with Cluster Munitions and a Centreline LGB. *

*



*

*The Second flight carried Stand off weapons of Israeli origin. With two Electro Optically guided Delilah Missiles linked to a Litening III pod along with Spice 1000 stand off bombs. This would allow attacking the Lone Burmese Air Defence Unit Battery accompanying the armoured column armed with truck mounted HN-5 and QW-1 Manpads whilst keeping the flight safe from their attack.*
*



*


*The approach was uneventful and the Tejas flight cleared the initial point and prosecuted towards the target .The second section had just engaged the Air Defence assets when two L-39Cs of the Burmese Air Force were found trying to slip in behind the lead formation by flying low. However, a Su-30 flying cover at a higher altitude spotted the aircraft and engaged one while alerting the Tejas formation leader who fired R-74s at both targets using the DASH helmet making quick work of the second aircraft.* *



*
*



*

*With the air threat eliminated the Lead section focused on the Burmese Ground forces threatening the city, what was an interdiction mission soon turned into close air support as the Burmese forces spotted a withdrawing Para Commandos team and engaged them at range. *

*Attacks were made using Cluster munitions first to create consternation among the tanks with full EW coverage before switching to Helina Missiles to pick off targets.*

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## SQ8

*As the Burmese Forces scattered, the LGBs were used to mop up any key targets identified by the Para Team, whist the second aircraft used its rockets to pick off stragglers and soft targets. *










i*n the meantime, the 107th was given the all clear to begin its Air drop/assault to secure the outskirts of the city and make it a safe haven for the refugees. *





*The task at hand done, the MKI's continued to provide aerial cover for the heliborne operation whilst the Tejas flight returned to base. *
*



*

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## nik22

@Oscar , it is awesome!

Put some negative side too. Looks like a one sided love story 

Donatello is going to say again - lol, why do you waste time


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## sudhir007

Tejas MK-2 Aesa Radar derived from Israeli EL/M-2052 | idrw.org

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## SQ8

nik22 said:


> @Oscar , it is awesome!
> 
> Put some negative side too. Looks like a one sided love story
> 
> Donatello is going to say again - lol, why do you waste time



Against the Burma military Junta, I'm sure the Indian forces will generally get favourable results. At least from the air anyway.


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## 帅的一匹

FNFAL said:


> @Malik Alashter
> As said by @45'22' , the biggest chalenge in reverse engg is metallurgy and qualityf of blades and other components.
> Building an engine is one thing, reliability with decent hours for engine life is another thing, The best example would be chinese experience with ther WS engines. They simply have too short an engine life
> Matter of fact, russina.soviet engine have an engine life shorter than western counterparts.
> 
> Metallurgy in engine building is a closedly guarded secret that no nation wants to share with others barring trearties.


now WS10G has 1500 hours duration for overhaul, we make huge breakthrough in recent years especially metallurgy.

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## drunken-monke

wanglaokan said:


> now WS10G has 1500 hours duration for overhaul, we make huge breakthrough in recent years especially metallurgy.


That is because breakthrough of 'Single crystal metallurgy' china have attained in recent years... The thrust of WS10A onward series especially WS 10 G is exceptionally good.. 150 kn with afterburner.. too good.. If, what you are saying that it clocks 1500 hrs, then thats a excellent new for Chinese aerospace industry..

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## 帅的一匹

drunken-monke said:


> That is because breakthrough of 'Single crystal metallurgy' china have attained in recent years... The thrust of WS10A onward series especially WS 10 G is exceptionally good.. 150 kn with afterburner.. too good.. If, what you are saying that it clocks 1500 hrs, then thats a excellent new for Chinese aerospace industry..


and we could produce powder metallurgy turbine disk right now.

WS15 will have max180KN thrust.

we still lacks experience in Thrust vectoring tech,that's why we need to buy Su35.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> *As requested*



Great work, you should create an own thread (unless you already have) for such story lines, with different fighters. Would surely interest a lot of us.


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## The_Sidewinder

sancho said:


> Great work, you should create an own thread (unless you already have) for such story lines, with different fighters. Would surely interest a lot of us.



I agree. @Oscar please please please


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> IAF C-130-30Js





Water Car Engineer said:


> mark 1 FOC model will have refueling probe.



*Tejas Mk.2 Testbed with IRST and Fixed Refuelling probe in formation with C-130J of Veiled Vipers. 
*






*Tejas Mk.2 IOC with retractable refuelling Probe and IRST.*

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> *Tejas Mk.2 Testbed with IRST and Fixed Refuelling probe in formation with C-130J of Veiled Vipers.
> *
> View attachment 136576
> 
> 
> *Tejas Mk.2 IOC with retractable refuelling Probe and IRST.*
> View attachment 136577


Very nice!

Fixed IFR probes always look SO ugly (except on Dassualt's birds).



----------------------------------






A letter to the IAF from the Tejas on the IAF's 82nd raising day last week:

*Dear IAF,

My special greetings on your 82nd b'day! I saw some photos on Tarmak007 and was happy to see that Hindon Station is all decked up for the AF Day Parade on October 8. Last year too I missed flying there and this year too I will be missing.

But my dad in ADA, mom in HAL and uncle in DRDO promise that for your 83rd birthday -- I will be surely there. Not in the current yellow-pillow colour. I hate this yellow paint. But, I shall come in the mesmerizing IAF Squadron colours.

I met some of the Tejas Squadron pilots in Bangalore the other day at NFTC and one guy asked me: ”Aur kitna wait karna padega? (How long we have to wait?).” They are in a hurry to take me to Sulur, my honeymoon base. Nice guys!

Some of my cousins have gone to Jaisalmer to celebrate Diwali. This time they are firing some new bombs and missiles. 

These media chaps are behind me again and they are saying I am light, but late. These guys don’t know: Better late than never!

It's raining in Bangalore now and I have some night flying lined up as well. Send me some photos of AF Day Parade on WhatsApp. If time permits, please do reply after the b'day bash. 

Happy B’day. Miss you guys! 

Love,

Tejas*



Saw it on the TARMAK007 blog, gave me a good laugh anyway.

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## nik22

Oscar said:


> Against the Burma military Junta, I'm sure the Indian forces will generally get favourable results. At least from the air anyway.


What if China plays proxy


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## RKO

Oscar said:


> *On the subject of what if schemes(since there is not much news going on about the Tejas. There was a particular Mig-21 display scheme which always intrigued me and I thought the Tejas would look smashing in it.*
> View attachment 134874
> 
> 
> View attachment 134873
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And now to what I really wanted to do, was to ruin your day(or make it if you have rather twisted ideas).. The fin flag placement is wholly unintentional. *
> 
> *
> View attachment 134872
> *


plzsir.....wht software are you using???


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## sudhir007

2695th flight on 28 Aug
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 387, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 224, LSP5: 278, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 59, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 128, LSP7: 118, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 106

2724th flight on 30 Sep
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 387, LSP1: 74, *LSP3: 227*, LSP5: 278, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, *PV5: 63*, LSP2: 294, *LSP4: 141, LSP7: 123,* NP1: 25, *LSP8 : 110*

*2748th flight on 16 Oct*
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 387, LSP1: 74, *LSP3: 231*, LSP5: 278, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, *PV5: 64*, LSP2: 294, *LSP4: 152, LSP7: 130,* NP1: 25, *LSP8 : 111*

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## GORKHALI

Oscar said:


> *Tejas Mk.2 Testbed with IRST and Fixed Refuelling probe in formation with C-130J of Veiled Vipers.
> *
> View attachment 136576
> 
> 
> *Tejas Mk.2 IOC with retractable refuelling Probe and IRST.*
> View attachment 136577


I think you need to create another sticky thread,so that we can enjoy more. Love MK2 work mate.


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## trainer

great news buddy.... congrats


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## sudhir007



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## sathya

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/525360880163495936

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## skynet

sathya said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/525360880163495936


70-80 kms only


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## sathya

Hopefully AESA in mk2 will have more ..

Current mk 1 needs to finish faster..


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## sancho

skynet said:


> 70-80 kms only



Depends on what the target size is or if he means tracking range, rather that detection range.

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## skynet

sancho said:


> Depends on what the target size is or if he means tracking range, rather that detection range.


Sir whats the difference bw traking range and detection range?


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## sancho

skynet said:


> Sir whats the difference bw traking range and detection range?



In tracking range you can get more infos on the targer, altutude, speed, precise direction...

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## sudhir007



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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Depends on what the target size is or if he means tracking range, rather that detection range.


He is talking about tracking ranGE of a fighter sized target.

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> He is talking about tracking ranGE of a fighter sized target.



Did he confirmed that? Can you post his reply please?


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Did he confirmed that? Can you post his reply please?

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## Juggernautjatt

I have a question in mind is this radar better than KLJ-7 or not ?


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## rockstarIN

rockstarIN said:


>




With this @sancho the nose problem is rectified for LCA regarding the radar range.


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## SQ8

Juggernautjatt said:


> I have a question in mind is this radar better than KLJ-7 or not ?



For that you will need to know the exact parameters of the KLJ-7 which is a near impossibility given the strict information control and paranoid security apparatus within the sole user's nation.


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## sancho

Juggernautjatt said:


> I have a question in mind is this radar better than KLJ-7 or not ?



Let's not start comparisions in this thread, both are comparable puls doppler radars, with comparable performance.



rockstarIN said:


> With this @sancho the nose problem is rectified for LCA regarding the radar range.



Actually it isn't since that are only specs of the radar itself. The new nose as well as the refuelling probe are yet to come and be integrated, "then" we will see if the performance of the radar can be reached to the full extend. What's interesting though is, that he replied to one tweet asking if it's an Indian MMR, that it is an LRDE radar with the EL 2032 backend, that however is contrary to most recent reports for the MK1 and also would make the procurement of EL 2032s for the Jag upgrade pointless.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Let's not start comparisions in this thread, both are comparable puls doppler radars, with comparable performance.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it isn't since that are only specs of the radar itself. The new nose as well as the refuelling probe are yet to come and be integrated, "then" we will see if the performance of the radar can be reached to the full extend. What's interesting though is, that he replied to one tweet asking if it's an Indian MMR, that it is an LRDE radar with the EL 2032 backend, that however is contrary to most recent reports for the MK1 and also would make the procurement of EL 2032s for the Jag upgrade pointless.


Jag deal already signed long back and can't back trac now I think. May be the radar development went through in a good pace than expected by these officials. There were always a surprise hidden in radar as somebody was hinting. ...may be this development.


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## sathya



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## halloweene

i hope i didn't make too many errors? If so please quote them to me!

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Le LCA Tejas indien sorti des turbulences?

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> i hope i didn't make too many errors? If so please quote them to me!
> 
> le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Le LCA Tejas indien sorti des turbulences?



Google translation:

Google Übersetzer


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## sancho

@halloweene 

Nice summary, any chance to get an idea of what Dassault officials / designers that were part of the LCA design process thinks about the fighter? Apart from the reports that Dassault did consultancy work in the design stage, there is not much known about it. Would be interesting to hear something from the French side about that.

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## halloweene

i will try sancho. No promise however.

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## sathya

Is it difficult to have
1.wing tip pylons
2.increase wing span thereby getting space for additional hard point
3. Tandem fuselage pylons from the proposed increase in fuselage length

In mk 2 LCA ..?


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## HariPrasad

sathya said:


> increase wing span thereby getting space for additional hard point




Wings are already large compare to fuselage. No need to increase the size. In one pylon itself, upto 4 missiles can be mounted. 

Increase in fuselage length, Redesigned radome and redesign air intake, redesign cockpit and other aerodynamic improvements shall make this plane a very good one.


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## sathya

HariPrasad said:


> Wings are already large compare to fuselage. No need to increase the size. In one pylon itself, upto 4 missiles can be mounted.
> 
> Increase in fuselage length, Redesigned radome and redesign air intake, redesign cockpit and other aerodynamic improvements shall make this plane a very good one.



In aircrafts with longer fuselage especially twin engine ones , they have four pylons .
If we increasing fuselage length can we have 2 at least?

Wingtip pylons were not used by India , why ?

Additional pylons under wings ,


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## sancho

sathya said:


> Is it difficult to have
> 1.wing tip pylons
> 2.increase wing span thereby getting space for additional hard point
> 3. Tandem fuselage pylons from the proposed increase in fuselage length
> 
> In mk 2 LCA ..?



According to statements of ADA officials at Aero India it would require a major re-design of the wings and that's not what they (at least initially) wanted for the MK2 upgrade. Now however they will re-design a large part of the fuselage, which is a credible change too. Adding hardpoints like the Gripen NG has done it, would had been the best choice, since it's a spin off of the re-design to increase internal fuel. The ADA / DRDO way of increased fuel however doesn't add any advantages to free space for hardpoints and so far we don't even know how much fuel can actually be increased. If the addition is good enough, we might be able to free hardpoints at the wings for example:

LCA MK1 with 2 wingtanks = 2400l fuel
LCA MK2 maybe with 1200l increased internal fuel + 800l centerline tank = 2000l fuel

Still wouldn't be equal, but could be useful enough and then 2 wingstations would be free for heavier strike loads and BVR missiles.


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## Bhuvan93

Questions from a newbie:

1) Is a Tejas Mark III likely?
2) Will the Tejas Mark II be a formidable fighter with export value?

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## sancho

Bhuvan93 said:


> Questions from a newbie:
> 
> 1) Is a Tejas Mark III likely?
> 2) Will the Tejas Mark II be a formidable fighter with export value?



Welcome to the forum!

MK3 upgrade will come at some point for sure, simply by the fact that you have to modernise fighters after a certain time. What upgrades it will include however can't be said right now, just that it won't be a stealth fighter, contrary to what DRDO claims.
MK2 is meant to be a propper 4.5th gen fighter and comes in a time, when there are are not many cost effective fighters left on the market. But so far it's only in design stage and without knowing final specs and changes, you can't say how good or bad it will be.

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## fjavaid

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 106230
> 
> View attachment 106231
> 
> View attachment 106232
> 
> View attachment 106233
> 
> View attachment 106234
> 
> View attachment 106235
> 
> View attachment 106236
> 
> View attachment 106237



Very nice pics .........!!!


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529975042658926592"

Now the time has come to equate and pit Tejas-MK-I agst Mirage-2000 one to one and make the result public.

This will shut the mouth of all Tejas Hating brigades.

Exciting times ahead.


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/530058503931428864
Great news for Indigenous Projects if Shri Manohar Parrikar becomes New DEFENCE MINISTER.


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## Derolo

Tejas vs M2K?

M2K has a 20km advantage in missile range so its no competition really.


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## Raul_AD

Derolo said:


> Tejas vs M2K?
> 
> M2K has a 20km advantage in missile range so its no competition really.



Just wait and watch the game unfolding. Time has come for Many Meths to go down.


----------



## Derolo

Raul_AD said:


> Just wait and watch the game unfolding. Time has come for Many Meths to go down.



Only thing going down is the HAL Tejas and the pilot with it since his helmet will strike the canopy and toes will strike the instruments and the HAL modified ejection seat will fail to deploy until villagers find the wreckage of the plane and the remnants of the body. Hopefully then the current govt. will take the obvious approach and throw this doomed junk into cold storage and put behind us one of India's nastiest chapters.


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529990941596065792


Derolo said:


> Only thing going down is the HAL Tejas and the pilot with it since his helmet will strike the canopy and toes will strike the instruments and the HAL modified ejection seat will fail to deploy until villagers find the wreckage of the plane and the remnants of the body. Hopefully then the current govt. will take the obvious approach and throw this doomed junk into cold storage and put behind us one of India's nastiest chapters.



Why are you posing hilarious stuff??? Do you know the average height of IAF Pilots, on and average tallest 5% may face some difficulties.

If so the situation may arrive because IAF was nowhere while whole project was taking shape in drawings & testing. Never had any feedback from IAF, why cry now?????????


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## Derolo

Raul_AD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529990941596065792
> 
> 
> Why are you posing hilarious stuff??? Do you know the average height of IAF Pilots, on and average tallest 5% may face some difficulties.
> 
> If so the situation may arrive because IAF was nowhere while whole project was taking shape in drawings & testing. Never had any feedback from IAF, why cry now?????????



This post of yours shows you know nothing about the LCA project.

IAF gave plenty of feedback considering IAF pilots are the test pilots risking their lives flying this widow maker in the making.

When the helmet was designed to be too big to fit in the cockpit by HAL then IAF raised the issue and HAL modified the MB 00 ejection seat to make the helmet fit. Fully compromised the ejection seat to make the oversized faulty helmet fit. 

So please know some facts before you vomit deluded fanboy crap all over the place.

LCA Tejas is a failure. A flying object capable of firing short range missiles and absolutely no endurance.


----------



## Raul_AD

Derolo said:


> This post of yours shows you know nothing about the LCA project.
> 
> IAF gave plenty of feedback considering IAF pilots are the test pilots risking their lives flying this widow maker in the making.
> 
> When the helmet was designed to be too big to fit in the cockpit by HAL then IAF raised the issue and HAL modified the MB 00 ejection seat to make the helmet fit. Fully compromised the ejection seat to make the oversized faulty helmet fit.
> 
> So please know some facts before you vomit deluded fanboy crap all over the place.
> 
> LCA Tejas is a failure. A flying object capable of firing short range missiles and absolutely no endurance.



Keep you crap to your selves. Do you know that IAF was not even able to modify Ejection Seats on Killer MIG-21 as been done by PAF on their F-7 Chinies copy of MIG-21, they replaced them with Martin Backer Seats.

IAF was not able to do that till now. Who to blame for this and Genocide of Young IAF pilots.

If you don't understand the Issues please don't quote me.

P.S.: Test Pilots on Tejas are Certified Test Pilots, not any monopoly of IAF get your facts right.


----------



## Derolo

Raul_AD said:


> Keep you crap to your selves. Do you know that IAF was not even able to modify Ejection Seats on Killer MIG-21 as been done by PAF on their F-7 Chinies copy of MIG-21, they replaced them with Martin Backer Seats.
> 
> IAF was not able to do that till now. Who to blame for this and Genocide of Young IAF pilots.
> 
> If you don't understand the Issues please don't quote me.
> 
> P.S.: Test Pilots on Tejas are Certified Test Pilots, not any monopoly of IAF get your facts right.



Why are you going off topic just because you lost the argument? Grow a pair and accept it.

HAL is the sole culprit of IAF fatality. 

Where have i said Test pilots of HAL are purely IAF? IF you knew jackshit about testing standards then you would know that until IOC-1 is granted a mixture is always used. After IOC-2 its only IAF.

But then you know nothing except fiction so the normal terms don't apply to you.


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529675251727077376

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529980885257302016

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## sathya

Derolo said:


> Only thing going down is the HAL Tejas and the pilot with it since his helmet will strike the canopy and toes will strike the instruments and the HAL modified ejection seat will fail to deploy until villagers find the wreckage of the plane and the remnants of the body. Hopefully then the current govt. will take the obvious approach and throw this doomed junk into cold storage and put behind us one of India's nastiest chapters.



I believe LCA was grounded in the past because of ejection seat problems and should have been rectified..
Why do you hate LCA so much ? 
Which one is safer mig 21 or LCA ?
LCA intends to replace the low end, if it surpasses mirage then it's bonus isn't it?

Can u tell me any perfect fighter ? That never had an issue at all ?

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## k7x

Requirement for LCA is kept low to create artificial scarcity. How else you will convince $20 billion for rafale.

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## sancho

Raul_AD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529975042658926592"





Raul_AD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529675251727077376



He is loosing his credibility as a journalist, since he should be unbiased and aim on facts not only hearsay, otherwise he would be not better than the defence bloggers we have.

Neither does the LCA MK1 has the flight performance of the Mirage, nor the capabilities of the upgraded version when it comes to missile load. And being better than Mig 21 can't be the yardstick for LCA, but how close it is to other modern 4th generation fighters like the Gripen C.


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## sathya

Comparative trials with mirage 2000 would let us know where LCA stands ,

Durability, maintenance and others factors whichever points which were tested in MMRCA should be compared as well to know whole spectrum.

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## Derolo

sathya said:


> I believe LCA was grounded in the past because of ejection seat problems and should have been rectified..
> Why do you hate LCA so much ?
> Which one is safer mig 21 or LCA ?
> LCA intends to replace the low end, if it surpasses mirage then it's bonus isn't it?
> 
> Can u tell me any perfect fighter ? That never had an issue at all ?



Considering M2K is a 70's fighter and Tejas is Y2K+ fighter no its not a bonus at all.

Considering LCA is still a laboratory project with status of flying object it cannot be compared to the Mig-21. Also vast majority of Mig-21 in service with IAF were manufactured and assembled by HAL the safety record cannot be taken into account as HAL is renowned for making shitty flying objects which are called planes. Only Mig-21 which were made by Russia/Soviet Union can be taken into account. 

The problem has not been rectified it only been worsened and brushed under the carpet. Both the HAL made helmet and the HAL modified MB 00 seat have been compromised due to ADA/HAL.

LCA is not a fighter and hence cannot be compared to fighters.


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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> Comparative trials with mirage 2000 would let us know where LCA stands ,
> 
> Durability, maintenance and others factors whichever points which were tested in MMRCA should be compared as well to know whole spectrum.



I will support this, in many conditions...both M2k and LCA Mk1 may have similar performance specially A2A.

Having supported by AWAC or Su-30MKI for situational awareness, a BVR capable, Pyton-Top sight combo LCA Mk1 with ELTA pod is as capable as M2k in an A2A configuration.


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## Raul_AD

sancho said:


> He is loosing his credibility as a journalist, since he should be unbiased and aim on facts not only hearsay, otherwise he would be not better than the defence bloggers we have.
> 
> Neither does the LCA MK1 has the flight performance of the Mirage, nor the capabilities of the upgraded version when it comes to missile load. And being better than Mig 21 can't be the yardstick for LCA, but how close it is to other modern 4th generation fighters like the Gripen C.



What is the problem in comparative and competitive trials between Tejas MK-I and Mirage-2K. It will bring the truth to the Public weather ADA/DRDO or IAF which is on the fault. ADA/DRDO with inferior quality product or IAF for its LOVE FOR "PHORANE MAAL".

If a Journalist does not tag your thought line he is loosing creditability??? Good Logic!!!!

Apart from Weapons load Tejas MK-I beats Mirage-2000 on all accounts. Weather in air to air config or ground attack. Keep in mind *Tejas demonstrated Multi Roll capabilities - PGM attack, Dispensation of Flare Chaffs and firing of Air to Air Missiles all in 100 seconds*.

It will be definitely be comparable to Gripen C/D just match the spacs of Tejas MK-I & Gripen C/D you will know the answer.

*The comparison is very much Important because "IAF is spending $40 Million per plane on upgradation of Mirages to latest Standard*". If IAF thinks it is that much important to Upgrade Mirages then Mirages must be superior to Tejas-MK-I.


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## Sahasranama

Raul_AD said:


> What is the problem in comparative and competitive trials between Tejas MK-I and Mirage-2K. It will bring the truth to the Public weather ADA/DRDO or IAF which is on the fault. ADA/DRDO with inferior quality product or IAF for its LOVE FOR "PHORANE MAAL".
> 
> If a Journalist does not tag your thought line he is loosing creditability??? Good Logic!!!!
> 
> Apart from Weapons load Tejas MK-I beats Mirage-2000 on all accounts. Weather in air to air config or ground attack. Keep in mind *Tejas demonstrated Multi Roll capabilities - PGM attack, Dispensation of Flare Chaffs and firing of Air to Air Missiles all in 100 seconds*.
> 
> It will be difenately be comparable to Gripen C/D just match the spacs of Tejas MK-I & Gripen C/D you will know the answer.



Sancho is the most credible  

He gets to judge others credibility and issues certificate of credibility to the rest. Its one of the tricks of the "seculars".

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## Derolo

Trials between M2K and Tejas are meaningless. GOI PR dept. can always say Tejas came out on top to secure a PR victory.

Ever since they said Arjun MBT beat T-90 trials just shows their mindset that they are willing to compromise on capability and national security in exchange for a PR victory and of course propaganda purposes. 

When M2K is BVR capable and Tejas is not BVR capable what will the trial involve?

Top speed? Meaningless in actual combat.

Range? M2K hands down.

Endurance? M2K hands down.

But in the end who knows what the PR machine will say.


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## rockstarIN

Raul_AD said:


> What is the problem in comparative and competitive trials between Tejas MK-I and Mirage-2K. It will bring the truth to the Public weather ADA/DRDO or IAF which is on the fault. ADA/DRDO with inferior quality product or IAF for its LOVE FOR "PHORANE MAAL".
> 
> If a Journalist does not tag your thought line he is loosing creditability??? Good Logic!!!!
> 
> Apart from Weapons load Tejas MK-I beats Mirage-2000 on all accounts. Weather in air to air config or ground attack. Keep in mind *Tejas demonstrated Multi Roll capabilities - PGM attack, Dispensation of Flare Chaffs and firing of Air to Air Missiles all in 100 seconds*.
> 
> It will be definitely be comparable to Gripen C/D just match the spacs of Tejas MK-I & Gripen C/D you will know the answer.
> 
> *The comparison is very much Important because "IAF is spending $40 Million per plane on upgradation of Mirages to latest Standard*". If IAF thinks it is that much important to Upgrade Mirages then Mirages must be superior to Tejas-MK-I.




It is not going to surpass the new upgraded M2k in any area (except in RCS or some CAS duties).

But If it is able to deliver the performance of 70 to 80% of what M2k provides, then it is a success. That is what a light fighter is gonna give you. Do not put M2k or F-16 as a light fighter


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## Krate M

My prediction is
1 We will see orders for LCA increased by March, probably by that time it will be very close to FOC and demonstrated lot of capabilities.
2 Rafale deal will be signed up after March after next budget.


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## Sahasranama

Derolo said:


> Trials between M2K and Tejas are meaningless. GOI PR dept. can always say Tejas came out on top to secure a PR victory.
> 
> Ever since they said Arjun MBT beat T-90 trials just shows their mindset that they are willing to compromise on capability and national security in exchange for a PR victory and of course propaganda purposes.
> 
> When M2K is BVR capable and Tejas is not BVR capable what will the trial involve?
> 
> Top speed? Meaningless in actual combat.
> 
> Range? M2K hands down.
> 
> Endurance? M2K hands down.
> 
> But in the end who knows what the PR machine will say.


 
That's right. Indian govt. act like the CPP in China. It lies all the time.  ........ we should all listen to BBC to know the "truth"...that and "Al Jazeera". Right ?

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## Derolo

Sahasranama said:


> That's right. Indian govt. act like the CPP in China. It lies all the time.  ........ we should all listen to BBC to know the "truth"...that and "Al Jazeera". Right ?



I don't know why you would believe anything from a Qatar terror funded news channel but i certainly would not.

However if anyone genuinely believes that the Arjun can beat the T-90 is either engaged in willfull propaganda himself or is completely gullible.


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## Raul_AD

Dassault Mirage 2000 Jet fighter
The Dassault Mirage 2000 is a French multirole, single-engine fourth-generation jet fighter manufactured by Dassault Aviation. It was designed in the late 1970s as a lightweight fighter based on the Mirage III for the French Air Force. Wikipedia
Range: 1,550 km with drop tanks
Wingspan: 8.80 m
Introduced: June 1984
Unit cost: 23,000,000–23,000,000 USD
Engine type: Snecma M53
Manufacturer: Dassault Aviation
Thomson-CSF RDM multi-mode radar or Dassault Electronique/Thomson-CSF RDI pulse-Doppler radar for the Mirage 2000C/D, each with an operating range of 54 nm (100 km / 62 miles). This unit was an evolution of _Cyrano_ radars, with more modern processing units and look-down/shoot-down capabilities. The effective range is around 60–70 km with modest capabilities against low-level targets. (Note: International Standard for radar is 5Sq.m. RCS and Indian Standard is 2Sq.m RCS).
Now *Tejas: TWR:*





Compare TWR of Both GRIPEN-C and MIRAGE (and even with Rafale now think where MK-II will be sitting with F-414 engine) with TEJAS-MK-I

*Tejas : Range: *





Endurance of 2.5 Hours. And as per IOC-2 specs it declares it with *"Combat Radius" of 500Km*. From where we can roughly assume range to be 3 times of Combat Radius which will defines *Range as 1500Km*. *This is without Central Line Fuel Tank which is not certified in IOC-2*.

Hope this clears basic spacs of both the air craft.

We are not comparing here the Avionics of both the Aircrafts.


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## Sahasranama

Derolo said:


> I don't know why you would believe anything from a Qatar terror funded news channel but i certainly would not.
> 
> However if anyone genuinely believes that the Arjun can beat the T-90 is either engaged in willfull propaganda himself or is completely gullible.



I get it, we should not believe the Govt. of India OR the media, we should all believe you.  

Any other suggestions ?

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## HariPrasad

sathya said:


> I believe LCA was grounded in the past because of ejection seat problems and should have been rectified..
> Why do you hate LCA so much ?




Yes a ejection mechanism was modified. Timing of breaking of cockpit glass was reduced to almost half for safe ejection of pilot.



Raul_AD said:


> Dassault Mirage 2000 Jet fighter
> The Dassault Mirage 2000 is a French multirole, single-engine fourth-generation jet fighter manufactured by Dassault Aviation. It was designed in the late 1970s as a lightweight fighter based on the Mirage III for the French Air Force. Wikipedia
> Range: 1,550 km with drop tanks
> Wingspan: 8.80 m
> Introduced: June 1984
> Unit cost: 23,000,000–23,000,000 USD
> Engine type: Snecma M53
> Manufacturer: Dassault Aviation
> Thomson-CSF RDM multi-mode radar or Dassault Electronique/Thomson-CSF RDI pulse-Doppler radar for the Mirage 2000C/D, each with an operating range of 54 nm (100 km / 62 miles). This unit was an evolution of _Cyrano_ radars, with more modern processing units and look-down/shoot-down capabilities. The effective range is around 60–70 km with modest capabilities against low-level targets. (Note: International Standard for radar is 5Sq.m. RCS and Indian Standard is 2Sq.m RCS).
> Now *Tejas: TWR:*
> View attachment 146540
> 
> Compare TWR of Both GRIPEN-C and MIRAGE (and even with Rafale now think where MK-II will be sitting with F-414 engine) with TEJAS-MK-I
> 
> *Tejas : Range: *
> View attachment 146544
> 
> 
> Endurance of 2.5 Hours. And as per IOC-2 specs it declares it with *"Combat Radius" of 500Km*. From where we can roughly assume range to be 3 times of Combat Radius which will defines *Range as 1500Km*. *This is without Central Line Fuel Tank which is not certified in IOC-2*.
> 
> Hope this clears basic spacs of both the air craft.
> 
> We are not comparing here the Avionics of both the Aircrafts.




Ferry range over 1700 KM. Fuel 2468 KG i.e 3000 Liter of internal fuel. 2 1200 Liter and one 800 Literl tanks can be attached. WIKI states the range of 3000 KM.

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## Raul_AD

HariPrasad said:


> Yes a ejection mechanism was modified. Timing of breaking of cockpit glass was reduced to almost half for safe ejection of pilot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ferry range over 1700 KM. Fuel 2468 KG i.e 3000 Liter of internal fuel. 2 1200 Liter and one 800 Literl tanks can be attached. WIKI states the range of 3000 KM.



Thanks for mentioning it I was modifying my post as your suggestions arrived.


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## Derolo

Tejas has a combat range of 300km not 500km


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> I will support this, in many conditions...both M2k and LCA Mk1 may have similar performance specially A2A.



No they won't, the M2K has the better flight performance, missiles and load config. Both will be technically in the same generation of course and will have similar systems, but the performance still will be different. The biggest difference in fact will be the strike config, where LCA will be able to carry more bombs to a similar range, because of more wingstations, while the M2K will have better self protection capability with up to 6 x AAM missiles in any role, compared to LCA with 6 in A2A and just 2 in A2G roles.
However, the point of comparisons at this point is silly, because LCA doesn't even fulfill it's own development goals so far, so focusing on getting it into FOC and achieving all the goals must have priority, not distracting the focus by looking at other things.




Raul_AD said:


> If a Journalist does not tag your thought line he is loosing creditability??? Good Logic!!!!



You don't understand the logic of the statement, if you don't read the statement properly!



> He is loosing his credibility as a journalist, *since he should be unbiased and aim on facts* not only hearsay



So it's not about opinions on LCA, but about how journalists should work compared to defence bloggers.


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## Sahasranama

sancho said:


> You don't understand the logic of the statement, if you don't read the statement properly!
> 
> So it's not about opinions on LCA, but about how journalists should work compared to defence bloggers.



Almost ALL facts for a journalist are based on hearsay  

Its only VERY rarely they get documents or video or audio evidence. ........ if the journalists follow your advice, 90% of news channels in India will shut down.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Derolo said:


> Tejas has a combat range of 300km not 500km


*Ministry of Defence - Press Release dated 20-Dec-2013*
*
LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.*

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## Derolo

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> *Ministry of Defence - Press Release dated 20-Dec-2013
> 
> LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.*




Welcome to Aerospace Division of HAL

Radius of Action : 300 km


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## Sahasranama

Derolo said:


> Welcome to Aerospace Division of HAL
> 
> Radius of Action : 300 km



So now a website of HAL is more reliable than a Ministry of Defence Press Release ?


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## Derolo

Sahasranama said:


> So now a website of HAL is more reliable than a Ministry of Defence Press Release ?



LCA Tejas is developed by HAL.

Get your facts straight before acting like a moron


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## The Great One

Derolo said:


> LCA Tejas is developed by HAL.
> 
> Get your facts straight before acting like a moron


You mean ADA/DRDO.

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## Derolo

The Great One said:


> You mean ADA/DRDO.



And 30-40 other agencies.

However HAL is the main/nodal agency.


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## Manindra

Derolo said:


> And 30-40 other agencies.
> 
> However HAL is the main/nodal agency.


Nodal agency is ADA, HAL is manufacturing agency.

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## HariPrasad

Derolo said:


> Welcome to Aerospace Division of HAL
> 
> Radius of Action : 300 km





Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> *Ministry of Defence - Press Release dated 20-Dec-2013
> 
> LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.*




Hi guys,

do not enter into this BS discussion. I have burnt my fingers by entering into one more such BS discussion of LCA weight. There are lots of variable and subjective interpretations. You won't reach to any conclusion. Only remember that it can travel 1700 km without ANY EXTERNAL FUEL. It is a decent range.

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## Derolo

HariPrasad said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> do not enter into this BS discussion. I have burnt my fingers by entering into one more such BS discussion of LCA weight. There are lots of variable and subjective interpretations. You won't reach to any conclusion. Only remember that it can travel 1700 km without ANY EXTERNAL FUEL. It is a decent range.



1700km? Highly unlikely even with clean config not even the cannon/bullets, mach 0.7-0.8?, altitude of no wartime purpose?


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## HariPrasad

Derolo said:


> 1700km? Highly unlikely even with clean config not even the cannon/bullets, mach 0.7-0.8?, altitude of no wartime purpose?




No it has that potential. LCA had flown from Banglore to Jamnagar and subsequently performed some maneuvers as a part of trial in single fill of kerosene without any external fuel tank. It has an envying fuel efficiency as quoted by one scientist.

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## sancho

Derolo said:


> 1700km? Highly unlikely even with clean config



The range will remain a mystery for some time, because there are a lot of different specs out there, from different sources, in different times and none of them actually tells us for what config or role that range is meant to be.

HAL and IAF specboards for example stated 300Km combat range, while the last official press release stated:



> LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.



Ferry Range however should include maximum fuel tanks and then 1700Km would be awfully low, so there must be something around this figure that we don't know yet. The combat range as well differs and most importanty does not state under which condition. Saab for example states a combat range of up to 1500Km for the Gripen E, but also a CAP combat range of 900Km with 2h on station, which is roughly 40% less.

No lets assume LCA total combat range is 500Km - 40% = 300Km. So does the HAL figure speak about CAP combat range with a certain time on station? Possible, but we don't know for sure, so until we get more reliable specs of the production version and know for what conditions these range figures are, it will be difficult to compare it.

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## ptltejas

Milestone - First Flight of LCA Tejas Trainer PV-6

The second Tejas Trainer PV-6(KH-T-2010) flew for the first time on 8th of Nov 2014 from HAL Airport in Bengaluru. It was piloted by Gp Capt Vivart Singh(Test Pilot) and Gp Capt Kabadwal (a Flight Test Enginer, in the rear cockpit). The flight is another step forward towards achieving the Final Operational Clearance (FOC).







https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd...._=1424078143_514fcd232e876d5da38f79c52a484b9e

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## rockstarIN

In fact whenever some mention about the combat range, they should definitely provide details of mission and Configuration.


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## rockstarIN

Good that more trainers are coming. ..


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## Indo-guy

Don't know if this video has been posted here already ...

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## Derolo

sancho said:


> The range will remain a mystery for some time, because there are a lot of different specs out there, from different sources, in different times and none of them actually tells us for what config or role that range is meant to be.
> 
> HAL and IAF specboards for example stated 300Km combat range, while the last official press release stated:
> 
> 
> 
> Ferry Range however should include maximum fuel tanks and then 1700Km would be awfully low, so there must be something around this figure that we don't know yet. The combat range as well differs and most importanty does not state under which condition. Saab for example states a combat range of up to 1500Km for the Gripen E, but also a CAP combat range of 900Km with 2h on station, which is roughly 40% less.
> 
> No lets assume LCA total combat range is 500Km - 40% = 300Km. So does the HAL figure speak about CAP combat range with a certain time on station? Possible, but we don't know for sure, so until we get more reliable specs of the production version and know for what conditions these range figures are, it will be difficult to compare it.




Impossible i suppose until it comes into service in decent numbers which itself is impossible.

To be fair we can't even answer these questions with respect to either mig-29 or su-30mk properly and in detail so maybe IAF/MoD wants to keep real figures under wraps?


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## Raul_AD

HariPrasad said:


> No it has that potential. LCA had flown from Banglore to Jamnagar and subsequently performed some maneuvers as a part of trial in single fill of kerosene without any external fuel tank. It has an envying fuel efficiency as quoted by one scientist.



It's what is causing Dioharria to Tejas bashers!!!! With fuel tank the range will go up to 3000 kms.


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## Krate M

The trainer and naval versions of LCA look very very sexay.
I feel there is a possibility of slight increase in size and then it would look even more awesome.


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## enquencher

pv6 trainer(lca)

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## rockstarIN

Why this trainer flew with R-73s in the very first flight?


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## New

Sorry for bothering guys, but your votes would be appreciated here, 
As not much time is left, Please cast your vote

Thanks, in advance.


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## sancho

*LCA cleared payloads and stations:*





*
LCA weapon load configs (theoretical):*





*LCA mission configs (likely for IAF and IN):*

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## sancho

Since we are talking about the fuel tanks in many different threads lets look at the differences:
*
ADA brochure pic*





*Centerline*





*Wings*








*
Some fakes at the centerline for length comparisons*














@Oscar
Can you delete post #10142 please, got it right this time.

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## rockstarIN

@sancho can't we have 2 BVRs in twin pylons?


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## jaiind

Backbencher said:


> Are they going to telecast it in any channel ? I know its a silly question but I'm just curious


no,they won't telecast any thing. If you are at near to HAL,Banglore, you could see these machines.


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## fsayed

*India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly*

NEW DELHI — The Indian government, acting on Air Force demands, has offered to spend $12 billion to encourage private firms to establish an aircraft manufacturing facility — a move that would break Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s monopoly on aircraft manufacturing after years of delays on several projects.

Specifically, the Indian government has offered an advance order for the homemade light combat aircraft (LCA) Mark-2, a Defence Ministry source said.

*The offer was conveyed to senior private sector executives during several meetings with MoD officials in the last month, the source said. India’s private defense majors, Tata Group, Mahindra & Mahindra and Larsen and Toubro, are the most capable of setting up an additional military aircraft plant, either independently or in partnership with overseas firms.
None of the executives who participated in the meeting would comment on whether they would consider building such a facility.

Madhukar Vinayak Kotwal, president, Heavy Engineering of Larsen & Toubro, said, “Since this [building of an additional facility] is a matter currently under discussion at various levels in the government as well as in industry associations, we would like to refrain from giving any comments at this stage.”
The LCA, developed by Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is nearly 20 years behind schedule. The first order for 40 of the Mark-1 version of the aircraft has been given to state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). The final operational clearance is expected to be granted in 2015, after which the aircraft can go into production.

The Indian Air Force has a future requirement for only the next-generation LCA Mark-2, which would be powered by the higher thrust General Electric GE-414 engine. But the aircraft is still in the development stage and is not expected to be ready for production before 2017-18. The Air Force has a requirement for 250 LCA Mark-2s, which the government estimates would be covered by the $12 billion advance order.

The Air Force has demanded establishment of an additional aircraft facility to break the monopoly of HAL, India’s sole military aircraft manufacturer, and has complained of delays in delivery of aircraft.

HAL, with annual sales of $2.3 billion for the year that ended March 31, has produced more than 50 types of aircraft and helicopters, and has been designated as the production agency for the $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft program, in which Dassault’s Rafale has been short-listed as the favored aircraft.

“It is absolutely essential to set up an additional military aircraft facility here, as HAL is overloaded for the next 10 years and has become too unwieldy,” defense acquisition expert Miral Suman said.

Vivek Rae, former director general (acquisition) in the MoD, said, “India sorely needs aircraft manufacturing capability in the private sector. We cannot afford to put all eggs in the HAL basket.”

Subhash Bhojwani, retired Air Force air marshal, agreed an additional manufacturing facility is needed, but said HAL should be made more commercial.

“HAL is into the design and contemporary manufacture of fighters, transports, trainers and helicopters, as well as avionics and engines,” he said. “It is possibly the only company in the world to be so diversified. However, while this may sound good in a book of world records, it isn’t good as a commercial model.”

Defense analyst Amit Cowshish, a retired Defence Ministry bureaucrat, said the objective should be “not to create an entity that could compete with HAL but to have additional capability in India to manufacture aircraft so that the requirement, both of the military and civil sectors, could be met in a more cost-effective manner and in shorter time frames. Of course, competition would help in improving HAL’s efficiency.”

Sujith Haridas, deputy director general of India’s industry lobbying agency, the Confederation of Indian Industry, said, “It is very much desired to have an additional manufacturing facility, but one should not ignore that it takes several decades of consistent investment and efforts to create a mammoth system integrator like HAL.”
Would It Build Fighters?

Analysts disagree about whether the new facility should be used to build fighter aircraft

India’s private sector is able to set up such a facility, and could acquire the capability to build the LCA Mark-2 over time, but it could be a challenge, Cowshish said.

“LCA is a program in the pipeline for more than three decades. HAL and DRDO have worked hard on it, and the final operational clearance is expected sometime later this year,” he said. “To bring in a new manufacturing agency at this stage may not be a very good idea. Though it is possible to pass on the technology to the private industry for manufacturing the aircraft, selecting such an agency may turn out to be a [technically] tricky affair.”

Defense analyst Rahul Bhonsle said, “Setting up a new military aircraft facility is no doubt a Herculean task. But the new facility will be looking primarily at system integration.”

But Muthumanikam Matheswaran, retired air marshal and adviser (for strategy) to the chairman of HAL, said no private-sector aircraft facility could build the LCA.

“There appears to be a misconception that if ADA wishes, the LCA can be produced by the private sector. Nothing can be further from truth. The LCA cannot be produced by anybody without the major involvement of HAL*
*
India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly | Defense News | defensenews.com*


----------



## Black Widow

fsayed said:


> *India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly*
> 
> NEW DELHI — The Indian government, acting on Air Force demands, has offered to spend $12 billion to encourage private firms to establish an aircraft manufacturing facility — a move that would break Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s monopoly on aircraft manufacturing after years of delays on several projects.
> 
> Specifically, the Indian government has offered an advance order for the homemade light combat aircraft (LCA) Mark-2, a Defence Ministry source said.
> 
> *The offer was conveyed to senior private sector executives during several meetings with MoD officials in the last month, the source said. India’s private defense majors, Tata Group, Mahindra & Mahindra and Larsen and Toubro, are the most capable of setting up an additional military aircraft plant, either independently or in partnership with overseas firms.
> None of the executives who participated in the meeting would comment on whether they would consider building such a facility.
> 
> Madhukar Vinayak Kotwal, president, Heavy Engineering of Larsen & Toubro, said, “Since this [building of an additional facility] is a matter currently under discussion at various levels in the government as well as in industry associations, we would like to refrain from giving any comments at this stage.”
> The LCA, developed by Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is nearly 20 years behind schedule. The first order for 40 of the Mark-1 version of the aircraft has been given to state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). The final operational clearance is expected to be granted in 2015, after which the aircraft can go into production.
> 
> The Indian Air Force has a future requirement for only the next-generation LCA Mark-2, which would be powered by the higher thrust General Electric GE-414 engine. But the aircraft is still in the development stage and is not expected to be ready for production before 2017-18. The Air Force has a requirement for 250 LCA Mark-2s, which the government estimates would be covered by the $12 billion advance order.
> 
> The Air Force has demanded establishment of an additional aircraft facility to break the monopoly of HAL, India’s sole military aircraft manufacturer, and has complained of delays in delivery of aircraft.
> 
> HAL, with annual sales of $2.3 billion for the year that ended March 31, has produced more than 50 types of aircraft and helicopters, and has been designated as the production agency for the $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft program, in which Dassault’s Rafale has been short-listed as the favored aircraft.
> 
> “It is absolutely essential to set up an additional military aircraft facility here, as HAL is overloaded for the next 10 years and has become too unwieldy,” defense acquisition expert Miral Suman said.
> 
> Vivek Rae, former director general (acquisition) in the MoD, said, “India sorely needs aircraft manufacturing capability in the private sector. We cannot afford to put all eggs in the HAL basket.”
> 
> Subhash Bhojwani, retired Air Force air marshal, agreed an additional manufacturing facility is needed, but said HAL should be made more commercial.
> 
> “HAL is into the design and contemporary manufacture of fighters, transports, trainers and helicopters, as well as avionics and engines,” he said. “It is possibly the only company in the world to be so diversified. However, while this may sound good in a book of world records, it isn’t good as a commercial model.”
> 
> Defense analyst Amit Cowshish, a retired Defence Ministry bureaucrat, said the objective should be “not to create an entity that could compete with HAL but to have additional capability in India to manufacture aircraft so that the requirement, both of the military and civil sectors, could be met in a more cost-effective manner and in shorter time frames. Of course, competition would help in improving HAL’s efficiency.”
> 
> Sujith Haridas, deputy director general of India’s industry lobbying agency, the Confederation of Indian Industry, said, “It is very much desired to have an additional manufacturing facility, but one should not ignore that it takes several decades of consistent investment and efforts to create a mammoth system integrator like HAL.”
> Would It Build Fighters?
> 
> Analysts disagree about whether the new facility should be used to build fighter aircraft
> 
> India’s private sector is able to set up such a facility, and could acquire the capability to build the LCA Mark-2 over time, but it could be a challenge, Cowshish said.
> 
> “LCA is a program in the pipeline for more than three decades. HAL and DRDO have worked hard on it, and the final operational clearance is expected sometime later this year,” he said. “To bring in a new manufacturing agency at this stage may not be a very good idea. Though it is possible to pass on the technology to the private industry for manufacturing the aircraft, selecting such an agency may turn out to be a [technically] tricky affair.”
> 
> Defense analyst Rahul Bhonsle said, “Setting up a new military aircraft facility is no doubt a Herculean task. But the new facility will be looking primarily at system integration.”
> 
> But Muthumanikam Matheswaran, retired air marshal and adviser (for strategy) to the chairman of HAL, said no private-sector aircraft facility could build the LCA.
> 
> “There appears to be a misconception that if ADA wishes, the LCA can be produced by the private sector. Nothing can be further from truth. The LCA cannot be produced by anybody without the major involvement of HAL
> 
> India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly | Defense News | defensenews.com*





Good now HAL will have a competition... Let see how they transform...

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## SpArK

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dont worry, I did for you.



You are a Savior.


----------



## RPK




----------



## Donatello

sathya said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/525360880163495936



What does this mean? The radar range is 80km? What RCS?


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## Brahma Bull

Donatello said:


> What does this mean? The radar range is 80km? What RCS?


IAF standard is 2m2.

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## sancho

Donatello said:


> What does this mean? The radar range is 80km? What RCS?


He stated that this is the tracking range, but only mentioned fighter sized targets. Detection range however would be higher, but we have to wait for official specs after the next set of changes.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> He stated that this is the tracking range, but only mentioned fighter sized targets. Detection range however would be higher, but we have to wait for official specs after the next set of changes.


Yup, but it is the tracking range that matters for purposes of guiding missiles.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Yup, but it is the tracking range that matters for purposes of guiding missiles.



But it's the detection range that usually is given by the manufacturers and that is compared.

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## SQ8

The Tejas Mk.1 trainer just took to the air, I wonder how many are needed for the 40 odd Mk.1s being inducted till the newer aircraft comes along?


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## Ammyy

Oscar said:


> The Tejas Mk.1 trainer just took to the air, I wonder how many are needed for the 40 odd Mk.1s being inducted till the newer aircraft comes along?



That was 6th & final version of trainer so development of trainer is completed well before induction of fighter in IAF

Final version of Tejas PV6, 2-seater trainer takes to sky in maiden flight - Economic Times

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## SQ8

Ammyy said:


> That was 6th & final version of trainer so development of trainer is completed well before induction of fighter in IAF
> 
> Final version of Tejas PV6, 2-seater trainer takes to sky in maiden flight - Economic Times



That is not the question I asked. But thank you.


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## kaykay

Oscar said:


> That is not the question I asked. But thank you.


They have ordered 2 Sqds of Tejas thus 4 twin seated/trainers would be needed. PV-6 is final configuration so may be 3 more of same config.


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## SQ8

kaykay said:


> They have ordered 2 Sqds of Tejas thus 4 twin seated/trainers would be needed. PV-6 is final configuration so may be 3 more of same config.



That is what I ask. So essentially, there are to be 4 trainers for the Mk.1.. and then there will be another development for the Mk.2 to serve as a trainer?


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## kaykay

Oscar said:


> That is what I ask. So essentially, there are to be 4 trainers for the Mk.1.. and then there will be another development for the Mk.2 to serve as a trainer?


That's right though there will be similarities.


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## Derolo

Oscar said:


> The Tejas Mk.1 trainer just took to the air, I wonder how many are needed for the 40 odd Mk.1s being inducted till the newer aircraft comes along?



newer aircraft?

A decade away at the very least. Even design will take 3 more years. (Assuming you are talking about the Tejas mk2 which is exists only in theory).


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> They have ordered 2 Sqds of Tejas thus 4 twin seated/trainers would be needed.



Not necessarily, the squads with 18 fighters included 2 trainers, LCA squads however will include 20 fighters, so 2 more trainers per squadron are possible.


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## Derolo

21 is standard config of IAF squadrons.

18+2+3

Operational-Training-Reserve/Maintainence/Overhaul


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## kaykay

sancho said:


> Not necessarily, the squads with 18 fighters included 2 trainers, LCA squads however will include 20 fighters, so 2 more trainers per squadron are possible.


Possible. Those 2 extra aircrafts may be taken as reserve too. They keep some reserves per sqds if available, right?


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> Possible. Those 2 extra aircrafts may be taken as reserve too. They keep some reserves per sqds if possible, right?



Reserve fighters should be dedicated orders that will be put in storage or so, but not part of a squadron order and there were considerations in IAFs aim on M-MRCA single / twin seat ratio too, although the initial idea was 16 single + 2 twin seaters. If I'm not wrong the LCA's rear seat will be similar to the front one, so it's not just about being a trainer but a proper twin seat multi role fighter.

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## fsayed

India should market LCA Tejas Trainer has Lead-in Fighter Trainer (LIFT) | idrw.org


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## fsayed

IAF will still need 400 Light class aircraft in next 2 decade | idrw.org


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## fsayed

Recently news came about exporting LCA to the nation (who will buy 5th gen fighter jet ) in the lead in trainer category .LCA which is 4.5 gen fighter can be consider as 5+ gen trainer aircraft. In 2012 Germany showed interest in buying tejas in lead in trainer category.
Apart from this india can export LCA to isreal as it is going to induct it's 1st 5th gen f35 jets


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## sancho

fsayed said:


> Recently news came about exporting LCA to the nation (who will buy 5th gen fighter jet ) in the lead in trainer category .LCA which is 4.5 gen fighter can be consider as 5+ gen trainer aircraft. In 2012 *Germany showed interest* in buying tejas in lead in trainer category.
> Apart from this india *can export LCA to isreal* as it is going to induct it's 1st 5th gen f35 jets



German Luftwaffe didn't, German part of EADS now Airbus did, as part of a team up to develop a trainer, but we didn't went for it.
Israel has already selected a new trainer:

Alenia Aermacchi rolls out first M-346 Lavi for Israel - IHS Jane's 360


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## sathya

I think Israel bought in similar manner .. Deal for a deal..


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## sathya

Tarmak007 - Photos from Tarmak007's post | Facebook

Tejas PV 6 new pics..

Not sure how to post images using I pad


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## sancho

> *Final operational clearance for LCA in June 2015 *
> 
> The indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the final operational clearance (FOC) in June 2015 for induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF), a senior defence scientist said Friday.
> 
> "FOC for LCA Tejas will be given in June next year for induction into the IAF fleet, which is behind schedule by six months," Defence Research and Development Orgainsiation's (DRDO) chief controller (Aero) K. Tamilmani told reporters here...



Final operational clearance for LCA in June 2015 | Business Standard News


----------



## Derolo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/507731336292220928

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Derolo said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/507731336292220928


 What do they want 5th gen plane?


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## Derolo

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> What do they want 5th gen plane?



lightweight multirole fighter. 3.5++/4 gen will suffice


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Derolo said:


> lightweight multirole fighter. 3.5++/4 gen will suffice


what is a 4 gen?


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## Derolo

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> what is a 4 gen?



lollipop


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Derolo said:


> lollipop


Thats what the IAF wants, a lollipop.


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## sancho

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> What do they want 5th gen plane?



- 4th gen multi role fighter
- with working puls doppler radar and solved nose material issue for proper performance
- with an AoA of 26° as asked in the ASR
- with a G-Limit of 8 as asked in the ASR
- with an integrated gun
- with an integrated BVR missile
- with an integrated IFR probe as part of the FOC requirements

- to upgrade MK2s avionics, because of the years of delays
- to add more engine and solve the performance issues
- to reduce drag if possible
- to add AESA at a certain point
- to add IRST possibly
- to improve the EW
- to add additional weapons


Not that much IAF asks for, but DRDO can't deliver that at the moment: 

- LCA MK1 FOC as reported only by June 2015
- first inducted MK1 squad by 2017
- second inducted MK1 squad around 2019
- production start of MK2 around 2019

So it's not IAF that is the problem, but still the slow progress in the LCA development and DRDO as the developer is accountable for that!


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## fsayed

*AESA RADAR for mk1 and mk 2 to b ready by 2015*


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## sathya

fsayed said:


> *AESA RADAR for mk1 and mk 2 to b ready by 2015*


----------



## Derolo

Humanity will establish a colony on Mars before Mk2 is inducted in IAF sporting an AESA radar. 

#fact
#thinkaboutit

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## Superboy

sathya said:


>




Second that.


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## Krate M

Actually the radar is ready. The radar system now needs a cooling component to be fitted in a fighter jet.
Google uttam aesa

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## ni8mare

Krate M this is you are talking about https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/downloadtndr.jsp?tenderName=6881&McrId=LRDE*Electronics%20&%20Radar%20Development%20Establishment&p=lrde_AirborneLiquidCirculationSystem_Specs_20.pdf&ei=RkpsVLDNN6eOmwWk64KwBw&usg=AFQjCNHFGilHDiwdHDs87aQqGErSOUXFmQ&sig2=orEfNwMPFBXLacVFHMM_mQ&bvm=bv.80120444,d.dGY

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## Krate M

@ni8mare
Yup, that's the one. So only liquid circulation system is needed. See the specs and architecture is finalized. 
2650 watts and other items. People here forget about the DRDO AEWC project, and the experience of DRDO in AESA radar. With Israel help if needed, we are going to do it.

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## ni8mare

Krate M said:


> @ni8mare
> Yup, that's the one. So only liquid circulation system is needed. See the specs and architecture is finalized.
> 2650 watts and other items. People here forget about the DRDO AEWC project, and the experience of DRDO in AESA radar. With Israel help if needed, we are going to do it.


yeah saw that it dissipates 2650W heats>>>means AESA unit is ready or going through testing......according to tender it will at least 1 year before it could be ready.....


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## Krate M

ni8mare said:


> yeah saw that it dissipates 2650W heats>>>means AESA unit is ready or going through testing......according to tender it will at least 1 year before it could be ready.....


Yup, the testing is on and now preparation for installing it in fighter plane have been started. This fits the timeline for aesa in LCA.

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## fsayed

Its Back to basics for GTRE after Kaveri Engine is scrapped | idrw.org

GTRE just confirmed three engine projects 
1) 20 kn for uav

2} 40 kn for umanned bomber 

3) at planning stage 115 kn for future requirement

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## SpArK

*






View attachment 155674





LCA Tejas LSP4 at Jaisalmer last month for more weapons release tests*

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## Gessler

fsayed said:


> Its Back to basics for GTRE after Kaveri Engine is scrapped | idrw.org
> 
> GTRE just confirmed three engine projects
> 1) 20 kn for uav
> 
> 2} 40 kn for umanned bomber
> 
> 3) at planning stage 115 kn for future requirement



Remember the presentation by Dr. VK Saraswat some years ago...about AMCA having ~100kN engines?

Definitely the new 115kN developments will be used on the AMCA ultimately...with adequate supercruising capability.

The Kaveri maybe scrapped but the knowledge gained in that project will be very useful
for future project.

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## greatone

Gessler said:


> Remember the presentation by Dr. VK Saraswat some years ago...about AMCA having ~100kN engines?
> 
> Definitely the new 115kN developments will be used on the AMCA ultimately...with adequate supercruising capability.



I wouldn't get my hopes up. Making a contemporary jet engine is one of the hardest projects a nation can undertake.
Especially since the goal post is always moving.

When did China work on jet engines, any idea ?

Thier timelines should be a realistic target for our domestic engine project.

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## sathya

SpArK said:


> View attachment 155678
> *
> View attachment 155672
> *



Looks like under chase paint of cars 

Do we have any tejas with black colour ?


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## Gessler

greatone said:


> I wouldn't get my hopes up. Making a contemporary jet engine is one of the hardest projects a nation can undertake.
> Especially since the goal post is always moving.
> 
> When did China work on jet engines, any idea ?
> 
> Thier timelines should be a realistic target for our domestic engine project.



The Kaveri itself demonstrated a lot of tech - you know it was designed as a Variable Cycle Engine (VCE),
a very advanced design for it's time.

It sure takes a lot of time to develop a working turbofan but the experience gained in Kaveri helps.

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## SpArK

The 2-seater trainer version of the Tejas (PV-6) in flight.

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## Sine Nomine

@SpArK in my opinion Indian air force should induct them this will encourage the design team and plus there daily use will give better look inside..nice snaps

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## sancho

Gessler said:


> Remember the presentation by Dr. VK Saraswat some years ago...about AMCA having ~100kN engines?
> 
> Definitely the new 115kN developments will be used on the AMCA ultimately...with adequate supercruising capability.
> 
> The Kaveri maybe scrapped but the knowledge gained in that project will be very useful
> for future project.



Older DRDO specs showed the requirement of a 110kN engine for AMCA, so aiming a bit higher now seems to be appropriate "for the fighter projcet", but completelly nonsense, by the fact that they simply FAILED with Kaveri and rather basic 4th gen capabilities and requirements. There is nothing to gain from Kaveri for a NG engine, when you not even were able to develop a current engine in a reliable version and fit it to any application (not necessarily the LCA, but Mig 29K for example). So that BS that they claim about know how not wasted is just to fool the public and distract from their failures. Infact, if there was anything to gain for a NG engine, why not further develop Kaveri in the first place, instead of starting from scratch again and if they don't use the search for a possible AMCA engine directly for a joint development, they haven't learned anything from their mistakes!


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> The Kaveri itself demonstrated a lot of tech - you know it was designed as a Variable Cycle Engine (VCE),
> a very advanced design for it's time.
> 
> It sure takes a lot of time to develop a working turbofan but the experience gained in Kaveri helps.



Which again shows what nutcase are leading DRDO! Instead of realizing the limits of indigenous developments today and aiming for a realistic engine developments, with basic level of techs and performance, they always aim too high, because they want to brag about being world class. Same goes for LCA, why does it need NG displays, why does it need stealth shapings or other things they state infront of the media? We would had gained far more if it would offer the aimed performance goals and could had been inducted years ago, in a simple but achievable approach of the development. We still fail at the basics, radar and engine developments, just as aircraft design and our aim must be to improve these fields in a steady approach, not just jumping to the next one with even higher aims.

When we can't design a single aircraft without design issues or much overweight, how can we realistically say, we will be able to do a stealth design that is far less aerodynamic?
When we wasn't able to develop a current gen radar or engin with basic performance capabilities, how can we realistically say, we will be able to do it with NG performance and capabilities? 

The excuses are always the same, it was an "ambituous" program, it was our first attempt..., but that doesn't make the nation more capable or less reliant on foreign imports.

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## Sine Nomine

Well there may be some persons in Indian defense establishment who don't want TEJAS full operational.in my opinion each time air force rejects it and calls for new modification, design team is in problem not air force is.


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## Sine Nomine

Well there may be some persons in Indian defense establishment who don't want TEJAS full operational.in my opinion each time air force rejects it and calls for new modification, design team is in problem not air force is.

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## sancho

قناص said:


> Well there may be some persons in Indian defense establishment who don't want TEJAS full operational.in my opinion each time air force rejects it and calls for new modification, design team is in problem not air force is.



Air Force didn't reject anything, they even ordered an additional squad of MK1s, although they knew that the required flight performance specs can't be met. The problem is that there development and finishing IOC and FOC requirements are running far too slow, so unless the industry gets their act together there is nothing to induct.


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## Sine Nomine

@sancho well said but air force feed back in case of daily use is far better then evaluation process,air force knows that government will provide money in any case even if IAF says to buy f-22 Indian government will allocate funds but if governments says to IAF like PAF stick to tejas make it better and defend using it, i am sure things would much better all they know is we have money if not tejas then some other machine.


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## sancho

قناص said:


> if governments says to IAF... stick to tejas make it better and defend using it, i am sure things would much better all they know is we have money if not tejas then some other machine.



Not really, because IAF doesn't develop the fighter DRDO does! So if the government forces IAF to take a fighter below the required standards, that gives DRDO only more freedom to jump on other things, rather than to keep focusing on improving the the fighter or the developments they are running. And as I said, if IAF simply looked on money and other fighters, they wouldn't had increased their order of MK1 and placed an order of MK2 in the first place and had waited for orders until at least IOC 2 and the MK2 prototype would be ready, but IAF didn't and showed their commitment to the fighter!

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## Sine Nomine

@sancho @SpArK @ni8mare @sathya @greatone @Gessler @fsayed @Krate M
1. *G K Kumaravel of the Combat Vehicles Research Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi*, head of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark 1 and 2 programmes
2. *Squadron Leader (Retd) Baldev Singh, Director (Corporate Planning & Marketing) at HAL*; former Executive Director Flight Operations and the Chief Test Pilot (Fixed Wing) at HAL's Bangalore Complex
3. *KK Josh, 34, chief engine room artificer *(CERA) at Shipbuilding Centre
4. *Abhish Shivam, 33, a chief engineer* working at INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine.
5.* Air Commodore Parvez Khokhar*, 70, *former project director* of India's indigenous fighter aircraft Light Combat Aircraft

Definite Arms mafia out killing these persons which must be investigated(source-indiandefenceforum)
what do say about this all.

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## sathya

Either IB or NIA must start investigation , otherwise I will take this as government s work..

When politicians were given A to Z class security , why not a basic security for scientists ?

At least bring those responsible for killing to justice..

It's a shame that even ratnas of country also left in dark...


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## Sine Nomine

@sathya In India and Pakistan politicians get full security because they are elected but not common man gets security who elects them.In Pakistan these peoples enjoy full security and protocol, and peoples comment waste of tax money.


----------



## Jason bourne

20-30 Tejas aircraft to be commissioned soon: Parrikar 20-30 Tejas aircraft to be commissioned soon: Parrikar | Zee News

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## Jayanta

Jason bourne said:


> 20-30 Tejas aircraft to be commissioned soon: Parrikar 20-30 Tejas aircraft to be commissioned soon: Parrikar | Zee News


 SOON???? I don't think it will be possible...given the rate of production is currently 4 Tejas/annum.


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## sathya

Jayanta said:


> SOON???? I don't think it will be possible...given the rate of production is currently 4 Tejas/annum.



no, 4 this year.. (doubtful)

and 8 from next year..


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> SOON???? I don't think it will be possible...given the rate of production is currently 4 Tejas/annum.



That's the initial rate, which always starts slow but it's expected to peak at 16 a year witin 1 or 2 years. However I agree that the "soon" part is not really realistic.


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## sathya

sancho said:


> That's the initial rate, which always starts slow but it's expected to peak at 16 a year witin 1 or 2 years. However I agree that the "soon" part is not really realistic.



is there any possibility the LSP aircrafts modified and given to IAF, after FOC ?


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## sancho

sathya said:


> is there any possibility the LSP aircrafts modified and given to IAF, after FOC ?



Possible yes, but I guess they will remain prototypes for testing of systems, rather than proper IAF fighters. Lets see about that.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Possible yes, but I guess they will remain prototypes for testing of systems, rather than proper IAF fighters. Lets see about that.


Last two LSPs to give IAF along with SP1 & 2 as per earlier reports.

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## sathya

Any idea when sp 2 will hit the sky?


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## Superboy

sathya said:


> Any idea when sp 2 will hit the sky?




End of 2015 most likely. SP-3 will likely fly in 2016.


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## Etilla

sathya said:


> Dude, I asked seriously ..
> 
> Stop joking around man..



I think SP-2 will come in aug-sep 2015. SP-3 around 2016 start or small chance dec 2015 itself


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## sathya

Sp2 will be rolled out before march 2015
Metal cutting got over along with sp 1, so infact I am expecting this month or the next..
Sp 3 may take little more time. , still in 2015 only..

@etilla , do u have source or speculating just like me ?


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## Superboy

sathya said:


> Sp2 will be rolled out before march 2014,
> Metal cutting got over along with sp 1, so infact I am expecting this month or the next..
> Sp 3 may take little more time. , still in 2015 only..
> 
> @etilla , do u have source or speculating just like me ?




Before March 2014? It's now almost 2015.


----------



## DARIUS

قناص said:


> @sancho @SpArK @ni8mare @sathya @greatone @Gessler @fsayed @Krate M
> 1. *G K Kumaravel of the Combat Vehicles Research Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi*, head of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark 1 and 2 programmes
> *2. Squadron Leader (Retd) Baldev Singh, Director (Corporate Planning & Marketing) at HAL; former Executive Director Flight Operations and the Chief Test Pilot (Fixed Wing) at HAL's Bangalore Complex*
> 3. *KK Josh, 34, chief engine room artificer *(CERA) at Shipbuilding Centre
> 4. *Abhish Shivam, 33, a chief engineer* working at INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine.
> 5.* Air Commodore Parvez Khokhar*, 70, *former project director* of India's indigenous fighter aircraft Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> Definite Arms mafia out killing these persons which must be investigated(source-indiandefenceforum)
> what do say about this all.


Concerning the 2nd point I remember that he was reported to have hung himself!!!!!!


----------



## Etilla

sathya said:


> Sp2 will be rolled out before march 2014,
> Metal cutting got over along with sp 1, so infact I am expecting this month or the next..
> Sp 3 may take little more time. , still in 2015 only..
> 
> @etilla , do u have source or speculating just like me ?



Like you speculating.

Even if someone had a source say in IAF its as good as speculation because HAL has been cutting "ch*tiy@ of IAF since 1940.

If someone had a source in HAL do everyone a favour and smack that guy on the head for lying to you in advance.


----------



## sathya

Superboy said:


> Before March 2014? It's now almost 2015.






Ok dude, for a change u can laugh at me..
2014 March was the initially proposed for delivery of sp1, but delayed to sept 30.

But fact is metal cutting of sp2 got over with sp1, so it's gonna roll out within couple of months time..


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Rumors going around that N-LCA completed arrestor hook land in Goa.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> Rumors going around that N-LCA completed arrestor hook land in Goa.



How so? The NP1 doesn't have a hook and the NP2 didn't had it's first flight. Earlier reports suggested that the new version will make first ski-jump take offs in Goa, but if it already comes with a hook needs to be seen and even if, arrested landings will surely take some more time.


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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> How so? The NP1 doesn't have a hook and the NP2 didn't had it's first flight. Earlier reports suggested that the new version will make first ski-jump take offs in Goa, but if it already comes with a hook needs to be seen and even if, arrested landings will surely take some more time.



I didnt get it either.

Got it from a media person in BR who visited Vikramaditya recently.



> Guy's.
> 
> Food = Good. I enjoyed it.
> 
> CIWS. CIC WNC says that they have taken the measurements etc. Then another source said that Kasthan is old technology and hence not in Vik. CIWS from Israel, Russia etc are being evaluated.
> 
> All MiG-29K pilots are sent to US for basic courses. They get a lot of flying hours including 10 landings on US Carriers.
> 
> Lightening pod begins integration. But it depends on Russian Mission Computer.
> 
> EW suite is ELTA suppression pod. Then they have Tarang Mk 1b. M2 to be installed after being proved.
> 
> Sorties number in war time is same as given. However, they feel that not more than 8 aircraft's will be required to be in air.
> 
> Shore Based STOBAR is on with construction. However, the landings with arrester bar is already in operation. NLCA has performed arrester trials with success. NLCA is too pre mature to be talked about.


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

*Naval variant NP1 set for ski-jump trials in Goa*
*














*


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## sathya

@etilla , @superboy

IAF which has placed an order for 20 IOC-2 Certified Lca Tejas MK-1 will get 6 fighters in 2015-16 and 9 in 2016-17 and *Second (SP-2) by year end *, which will take the total to 17 aircrafts in 2017 , which will be respectable number of aircrafts to commission first fully fledged Lca Tejas Squadron if HAL sticks to its own delivery schedule . HAL is targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters for 2017-18 and for IAF to have two Squadron of Lca Tejas it will have to wait till early 2019. 

Parrikar don’t trust Babus on ” Lca-Tejas ” | idrw.org


----------



## Etilla

sathya said:


> Ok dude, for a change u can laugh at me..
> 2014 March was the initially proposed for delivery of sp1, but delayed to sept 30.
> 
> But fact is metal cutting of sp2 got over with sp1, so it's gonna roll out within couple of months time..



SP-1 has not been delivered



sathya said:


> @etilla , @superboy
> 
> IAF which has placed an order for 20 IOC-2 Certified Lca Tejas MK-1 will get 6 fighters in 2015-16 and 9 in 2016-17 and *Second (SP-2) by year end *, which will take the total to 17 aircrafts in 2017 , which will be respectable number of aircrafts to commission first fully fledged Lca Tejas Squadron if HAL sticks to its own delivery schedule . HAL is targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters for 2017-18 and for IAF to have two Squadron of Lca Tejas it will have to wait till early 2019.
> 
> Parrikar don’t trust Babus on ” Lca-Tejas ” | idrw.org



Orders were placed in 2005.

If I was IAF ACM i would have taken these b@stards to ICJ for delayed infinite delivery.

Its going to be 10 years and SP-1 is still at HAL.

Maybe if war breaks out we can make paper plans of tejas plans and launch them at the border.

Should have range of 2 meters, speed mach 0 and payload of insanity


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## sathya

Etilla said:


> SP-1 has not been delivered
> 
> 
> 
> Orders were placed in 2005.
> 
> If I was IAF ACM i would have taken these b@stards to ICJ for delayed infinite delivery.
> 
> Its going to be 10 years and SP-1 is still at HAL.
> 
> Maybe if war breaks out we can make paper plans of tejas plans and launch them at the border.
> 
> Should have range of 2 meters, speed mach 0 and payload of insanity




Lsp 7,8 sp 1,2 are marked for ASTE
Sp3-6 will be form the first squadron

Sp 1 flew in sept 30.


And are you a false flagger ?


----------



## Etilla

sathya said:


> Lsp 7,8 sp 1,2 are marked for ASTE
> Sp3-6 will be form the first squadron
> 
> Sp 1 flew in sept 30.
> 
> 
> And are you a false flagger ?



False flagger? Are you mad?

A squadron consists of 18-20 aircraft not 4 aircraft.

Those LSP can stay at HAL.IAF does not need additional liability.

SP-1 to SP-20 will form the 1st squadron.

SP-1 is still being built. No sensors on it nothing its a flying pressurized metal tube.


----------



## sathya

Etilla said:


> A squadron consists of 18-20 aircraft not 4 aircraft.
> 
> SP-1 to SP-20 will form the 1st squadron.
> 
> SP-1 is still being built. No sensors on it nothing its a flying pressurized metal tube.



You seem to be fond of paper plane..

Squadron contains 16 + 4 reserve

What I said this airforce will begin form a squadron with 4 initial examples

How did you know no sensors in sp2 ?

Got any source ?



Etilla said:


> A squadron consists of 18-20 aircraft not 4 aircraft.
> 
> SP-1 to SP-20 will form the 1st squadron.
> 
> SP-1 is still being built. No sensors on it nothing its a flying pressurized metal tube.



You seem to be fond of paper plane..

Squadron contains 16 + 4 reserve

What I said this airforce will begin form a squadron with 4 initial examples

How did you know no sensors in sp2 ?

Got any source ?


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## Etilla

sathya said:


> You seem to be fond of paper plane..
> 
> Squadron contains 16 + 4 reserve
> 
> What I said this airforce will begin form a squadron with 4 initial examples
> 
> How did you know no sensors in sp2 ?
> 
> Got any source ?
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be fond of paper plane..
> 
> Squadron contains 16 + 4 reserve
> 
> What I said this airforce will begin form a squadron with 4 initial examples
> 
> How did you know no sensors in sp2 ?
> 
> Got any source ?



Wrong.

In IAF squadrons are 16 combat active+2 training+3 reserve/repair/maintainece/overhaul.

Are you false flagger?


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## sathya

Etilla said:


> Wrong.
> 
> In IAF squadrons are 16 combat active+2 training+3 reserve/repair/maintainece/overhaul.
> 
> Are you *false flagger*?






Are you insulting me ?


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## he-man

sathya said:


> Are you insulting me ?




Welcome false flagger,,i am one too

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Every major power – and there are just a handful of them – have the capability to aspire to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft by themselves. Now, ideally, this would include all critical technologies – aero-engines, aircraft design, metallurgy, radar, sensors and weapons. However, very few countries have mastery and control in all these areas; the early birds or leaders – USA, Russia, UK and France are closely followed by Germany, Japan, Italy and Sweden.

Aspirants after the Second World War included Argentina, Brazil, China, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Israel, Iran, South Korea and Taiwan, of which only a few have emerged as successful late entrants into the aerospace club.

These are Brazil, China, India, Israel and South Korea. While China and Israel lead the pack, all of them have built capabilities and strengths in a few domains but no one has comprehensive mastery of all the relevant technologies.

The most complex challenge involves design and development of aero-engines and aviation grade materials. Except for China to some extent, none of the others have achieved any meaningful control of technology in these two domains. The mastery of aerospace technology will continue to remain a huge challenge for emerging powers like India.

*Good beginning but poor follow-up*

India’s aspiration to build its own fighter aircraft began well with the HF-24 programme. India took the prescient decision to bring in Dr Kurt Tank to head the design team in the fifties, when denial regimes were yet to take shape.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, Dr Kurt Tank had offered his services to Argentina which gladly accepted. By 1948, he had designed the fighter Pulqui II, a state-of-the-art fighter in its time. A prototype was built but its development was cut short by Argentina’s political turmoil.

That is when he moved to India and taught at IIT, Madras before he was entrusted in 1957 with the task of designing the HF-24 for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Until then, the only aircraft designed and built by HAL was the basic trainer HT-2. Attempting to develop the HF-24 after the HT-2 was an audacious leap in aspiration.

Dr Kurt Tank was allowed to bring his small team of German engineers who formed the nucleus of the final design strength of 150 HAL engineers by the end of the development. The project was sanctioned in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961, a mere four years later and the first squadron of series production aircraft went operational in 1967, only six years later!

Though handicapped by underpowered engines, the HF-24 acquitted itself well in the strike role in the 1971 Indo-Pak war.

The HF-24 was, in its time, a brilliant design and a state-of-the-art aircraft. The programme met an untimely demise in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the User, Government and the Industry.

The User’s leadership displayed singular lack of foresight and national perspective when it decided to phase out the aircraft in 1982, a mere 15 years later. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed ignorance and strategic blindness during the course of the HF-24’s development and operational life. Decisions on engine development with foreign collaboration were shelved under the pretext of being too expensive, when the cost involved was a mere Rs 5 crores.

The industry failed to follow a strategy of developing improved derivatives in order to sustain the huge leap achieved with the help of Dr Kurt Tank’s team.

The net result was withering away of precious talent. The entire 1970s was a lost decade.

HAL shifted its focus to license production of MiG-21s and when the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1985, HAL’s design capability was at an all time low. It lost the control of the design process and management to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which created the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.

*LCA – Genesis and Flawed Decisions*

Of late there have been frequent articles written by a few self-proclaimed champions of indigenisation and Tejas patriots. Although they presume a license to comment on how the Indian Air Force (IAF) must learn to fly and fight any war with the Tejas as its backbone and not pursue the MMRCA or FGFA, their views are spectacularly misinformed and reflect their ignorance of aeronautics, air combat and strategy and military aviation. They would do well to study the LCA programme’s genesis, development, hurdles, indigenous content and its true performance in order to appreciate its possible role and potential. The following narrative is for their benefit as well.

The Light Combat Aircraft concept was earlier referred to as the Light Weight Fighter (LWF). This concept has been a source of much study and research throughout aviation history to try and achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as downsizing of engines was relatively easier.

The Folland Gnat, which the IAF flew successfully in its 1965 and 1971 wars, was a classic Light Weight Fighter whose performance, in its age, was excellent at minimal cost, although it also brought with it large compromises in safety and reliability.

The MiG 21 has effectively proved to be the most successful Light Weight Fighter since its introduction. The IAF will have operated the MiG-21 for almost six decades if it phases out the last of them by 2020. The focus of the concept of the light weight fighter has always been low cost balanced by acceptable performance.

The genesis of modern Light Weight Fighter development goes back to the late sixties and early seventies, which ultimately resulted in the production of the most efficient Light Weight Fighter of the century, the F-16. The “Fighter Mafia” led by the late John Boyd and his Energy-Manoeuvrability theory laid the foundation for future light weight fighter development.

This radical change in concept became necessary because of the poor performance of technologically advanced, heavily armed, expensive and large aircraft like the F-4 Phantom against the low cost, technologically inferior but much smaller, highly nimble and agile aircraft like the MiG-15 and the MiG-21. A process of competitive prototype development was adopted. At the core of the LWF’s design requirement was performance.

The YF-16, which won the prototype competition in 1972, was the first aircraft design to be based on unstable platform and fly-by-wire control system. It was also the first to use composite material for structures. The rest is history.

The prototype programme began in 1971 and the series production F-16 was in operational service by 1978. Fundamentally, the F-16 programme validated the relevance of balancing technology while keeping performance and low cost as the drivers of the programme.

By the late 1970s the IAF was looking for a replacement for its accident- prone and unreliable Gnat and its Indian version, the Ajeet. The requirement was a low-cost, conventional aircraft to replace the Gnat/Ajeet and the early MiG-21 fleet (Fishbed) by the late 1980s.

Based on its experience of the Gnat and the need for a low-cost fighter, the IAF projected the requirement for a small fighter of 5 tonnes empty weight. This would have left the aircraft only marginally larger than the Gnat and even smaller than the MiG-21.

This was a flawed approach and indicated that the Light Weight Fighter concept had not been studied in depth and could have been due to inadequate information at that time.

But that is only partially correct, as HAL did the feasibility study with consultancies from all leading aircraft design houses of Europe.

After the initial feasibility studies the IAF and HAL concurred on the plan for a conventional fixed wing fighter to be developed. The DRDO then stepped in to suggest that the fighter development programme be used to bridge technology gaps – Fly-By-Wire (FBW) control system, airborne radar, aero-engine and composite structures.

By the early 1980s this was agreed to and an ambitious plan to develop a fourth generation platform with high performance was put up to convince the government. The approval was followed up by the formulation of the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) in tune with the performance expected of a fourth generation fighter.

_This is where the anomalies in decision-making crept in._

To develop a fourth generation fighter within a 5-ton lightweight airframe was a tall order. And although it was revised upwards to a 6-ton empty weight requirement, even this was difficult to achieve.

The projected time frame of less than a decade for the completion of development and operational induction of the aircraft was not only over-optimistic but also almost foolhardy, given the status of the technical base that existed with respect to FBW, aero-engine and the airborne radar.

Starting from scratch, each of these would have required nothing less than two decades of focused research and foreign assistance.

Ultimately, two of the major technology objectives were not achieved: the Kaveri aero-engine programme floundered even after three decades of work and has now been declared foreclosed, while the airborne radar did not make any headway and was dropped in 2006 in favour of the Israeli Elta-2032 radar.

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## Etilla

Babus fooling Parrikar into believing Tejas is not a failure

Parrikar don’t trust Babus on ” Lca-Tejas ” | idrw.org


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## sathya

*LCA Navy all set for ski-jump trials at SBTF Goa*
SOURCE: ONE INDIA






Scripting a new chapter in India’s naval aviation history, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval Prototype-1 (NP-1) is all set to undertake critical trials at INS Hansa in Goa for the first time. Sources confirm to OneIndia that the NP-1 undertook ‘extensive pre-requisite flying’ at HAL Airport in Bengaluru ahead of its expected ferry to Goa soon. “The aircraft is in a good shape now. In the last two weeks alone, we did five flights. Specified speed, Mach No, altitude, Angle of Attack, undercarriage operations and ground accelerations all have been tested and found satisfactory,” an official said.

The NP-1 (trainer variant) was rolled out with great fanfare on July 6, 2010 and the aircraft had its maiden flight on April 27, 2012. As on December 6, 2014, the platform could only achieve 29 flights.

*NP-1 to perform a challenging task at SBTF*

An advance team of experts has already landed at Goa ahead of the NP-1 campaign at INS Hansa. “Modifications on the NP-1 have already done for the ski-jump activities. Ski-jump is a technologically challenging task achieved by India. Only very few countries (US and Ukraine among known nations) can boast of a facility like SBTF,” the official said.

The SBTF is currently regularly used by the MiG 29Ks, before their operations onboard INS Vikramaditya. “The MiG 29Ks have been undertaking ski-jump and arrester hook landing for some time now. The LCA Navy will be doing only ski-jumps now. We will have two-week preparation time ahead of the first mission,” the official added. The NP-1 will be ferried (

The NP-1 will be ferried (flown from point to point) from HAL Airport and it would cover the distance to Goa within an hour. It will be first a home-grown naval aviation platform will to land at INS Hansa. Commodore T A Maolankar from the National Flight Test Centre is expected to pilot NP-1 during Goa mission.

The Navy is expected to give an official name for the LCA Navy soon as they were not keen to go with Tejas. It was former Prime Minister A B Vajpayee who named the IAF variant as Tejas. The ADA-HAL-Navy teams plans to invite PM Narendra Modi for the naming ceremony in future. The trials at the SBTF are crucial as it would give the team confidence to undertake further trials on NP-1. *A second prototype (NP-2, fighter variant) is also getting ready at the HAL hangars, which is expected to have its maiden flight before the end of this year.*

Largest R&D programme in India The LCA programme has become the largest R&D programme India has undertaken in the military aerospace arena. Each LCA costs around Rs 250 crore, while the GSLV is pegged at Rs 220 crore, PSLV Rs 80-100 crore and Agni Rs 50 crore.

The LCA programme has become the largest R&D programme India has undertaken in the military aerospace arena. Each LCA costs around Rs 250 crore, while the GSLV is pegged at Rs 220 crore, PSLV Rs 80-100 crore and Agni Rs 50 crore.”Though the aircraft is dogged with some problems right now, few local sorties have set the stage for the ferry. Joining NP-1 will be PV6 trainer and probably LSP7 from the Tejas flightline. The latter two may further proceed to Leh. In parallel, the HJT-36 (Intermediate Jet Trainer) is also scheduling sea level trials and asymmetric stores jettison exercises at Goa,” an official said.

*SBTF is a tech marvel*

The SBTF replicates a static model of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard. The SBTF has 14 deg parabolic profile ski-jump for take-off and an arresting gear for landing. The main objective of SBTF is for the certification of naval LCA for ship-borne operations, which is a mandatory requirement ahead of the aircraft’s operations onboard IAC for the carrier compatibility test (CCT).

The SBTF is equipped with restraining gear system with ski-jump for take-off and an arresting gear system for landing. It also uses an optical landing system, TV landing control system, light signaling system and a series of auxiliary units, akin to the IAC.

*The story so far dogged in delays*

Similar to its elder sibling Tejas, the Indian Air Force (IAF) variant of LCA, the NP-1 too got embroiled in serious developmental issues, delaying the project. In the past, its designers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and makers at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) had to deal with nagging issues linked to the arrestor hook, landing gear and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow for better low-speed handling).

In an interview to OneIndia recently, Navy Chief Admiral R K Dhowan had expressed concern over the delay in LCA naval programme. “It’s an important programme for us and we have the IAC (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier) in Kochi getting ready and the SBTF waiting for LCA Navy. It’s important that the programme is speeded up,” the navy chief had said. Naval sources say

so *SP 2 & NP 2* are due before the end of this year...

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## SpArK

Thats good news for navy.


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## sathya

@amardeep mishra

if you have understanding about TEJAS radar and ELECTRONIC ATTACK tejas variant,

can you please elaborate for us in simple terms

ps: pubic domain info will suffice!

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## SpArK

NLCA LSTT & EGR on restraining gear system 200 mtr from ramp done successfully. 

Ski-jump on Dec 15?


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## Agent_47

IAF have said LCA is good enough for advanced trainer .
Then why the hell are we buying last batch of Hawks for Surya kiran aerobatic team?
Hawks Fly Away With India’s Jet Trainer v2 Competition
@sancho @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @sathya


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## sathya

LCA can be a LIFT (lead in fighter trainer) aircraft not advanced trainer

even for LIFT. tejas needs certification.

acrobatics team need a slow aircraft, with good turnaround times, less maintenance and less $ per hour flying

its like using BENZ or BMW, where Maruti 800 will suffice

----------------------------------------

Tejas has airforce variant, naval variant and twin seat trainer variant.. 

it will be on par with Mirage aircraft overall...

mk2 will be better than mirages..

To call it trainer, they must have motives..

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## vsdave2302

Agent_47 said:


> IAF have said LCA is good enough for advanced trainer .
> Then why the hell are we buying last batch of Hawks for Surya kiran aerobatic team?
> Hawks Fly Away With India’s Jet Trainer v2 Competition
> @sancho @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @sathya


 

Hawk is OK but do not confused between Surya kiran and tejas. They are in different league. Training have various phases. SK is used in priliminary training while HAWK is used in last hpase of training. Tejas can replace that.


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## sathya

vsdave2302 said:


> Hawk is OK but do not confused between Surya kiran and tejas. They are in different league. Training have various phases. SK is used in priliminary training while HAWK is used in last hpase of training. Tejas can replace that.



can tejas replace hawk?

i dont think it can.. it will be a waste of resources. and doesn t fit too..

tejas is a level higher, it can only be used for LIFT (even for for that, has to be customized and certified)


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## vsdave2302

sathya said:


> can tejas replace hawk?
> 
> i dont think it can.. it will be a waste of resources. and doesn t fit too..
> 
> tejas is a level higher, it can only be used for LIFT (even for for that, has to be customized and certified)


 

Yes it is a best replacement and indigeneous one.

Hawk is not very cheap.

Yes tejas is a level higher.


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## sathya

vsdave2302 said:


> Yes it is a best replacement and indigeneous one.
> 
> Hawk is not very cheap.
> 
> Yes tejas is a level higher.




by complexity 

BTA< IJT< AJT (HAWK)< LIFT(TEJAS)

we can skip one step if there is considerable overlap in envelope
we already are skipping IJT, and cant skip two steps IJT & AJT
From BTA to LIFT


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## vsdave2302

sathya said:


> by complexity
> 
> BTA< IJT< AJT (HAWK)< LIFT(TEJAS)
> 
> we can skip one step if there is considerable overlap in envelope
> we already are skipping IJT, and cant skip two steps IJT & AJT
> From BTA to LIFT


 

Yes

But ideally we should not skip any step.


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## sathya

AMCA enters project definition stage,

RFP for engines to be issued 2015 

- s jha


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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> AMCA enters project definition stage,
> 
> RFP for engines to be issued 2015
> 
> - s jha



As per latest tweet, it is to powered by 110 kn twin engines which is under development, Kavari scrapped as a TD.


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## sathya

Most likely winner is GE 414 épé or ede

Since there is no RFI only RFP for those engine which are the uprated version of engines that IAF already evaluated. 

--------------------------------------

AMCA wind tunnel testing is being done in USA - s jha

--------------------------------------

Can we start a sticky thread for AMCA ?
Or do we wait ?


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## sancho

sathya said:


> Can we start a sticky thread for AMCA ?
> Or do we wait ?



There is one, please use that for AMCA discussions:

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions. | Page 11

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## sathya

The SRB for NLCA #NP1 ski-jump held @ ADA yesterday. All systems are declared fit.




what is SRB? @ abingdonboy

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## Krate M

@sathya I think it means systems or structural review board. Not sure fully.


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## sathya

Krate M said:


> @sathya I think it means systems or structural review board. Not sure fully.



sky jump held or yet to happen ?

SRB meet before or after flight?


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## ashok321

SRB = Safety/system review board.

LCA Navy all set for ski-jump trials at SBTF Goa - Oneindia

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## sathya

ashok321 said:


> View attachment 177325
> SRB = Safety/system review board.
> 
> LCA Navy all set for ski-jump trials at SBTF Goa - Oneindia



your link was an old news
any recent news regarding deck jump?


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## ashok321

sathya said:


> your link was an old news
> any recent news regarding deck jump?



Updated: Monday, December 15, 2014, 10:46 [IST]

Read more at: LCA Navy all set for ski-jump trials at SBTF Goa - Oneindia

You call it old link?

There is no daily news over NLCA.
That is the latest.


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## sathya

ashok321 said:


> Updated:
> LCA Navy all set for ski-jump trials at SBTF Goa - Oneindia
> old link?




HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 683

The SRB for NLCA #NP1 ski-jump held @ ADA yesterday. All systems are declared fit.
--------this is the latest


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## SQ8

sathya said:


> by complexity
> 
> BTA< IJT< AJT (HAWK)< LIFT(TEJAS)
> 
> we can skip one step if there is considerable overlap in envelope
> we already are skipping IJT, and cant skip two steps IJT & AJT
> From BTA to LIFT



It has to do more with speed and manoeuvrability brackets. So as such the USAF is using the T-6 texan to replace both the T-34 and T-37 going straight to the T-38. 
Essentially going from the 100-150 knot - 160-300 knot.. then onto the 300-400 knot bracket before going onto the supersonic trainer regime.

As such the T-6 texan has taken over the first three brackets for the USAF while the latter is done by the T-38 now and will be done by the T-X later. At this point the IAF has multiple aircraft doing different things for different brackets and a lack of coherence in pilot training is visible. All things considered,the IAF needs a supersonic LIFT to move on from the HAWK for which the Tejas is aptly suited.

I see no need for the BTA or IJT. As such the PC-7 can serve both purposes which the hawk can serve both as Jet trainer and AJT.

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## sathya

*Anantha Krishnan M*‏@writetake

#BreakingNews

Def Min @manoharparrikar tells Lok Sabha that* Tejas SP-2 will fly by March 2015*. *FOC by Dec 2015*.

Def Min @manoharparrikar tells Lok Sabha that first* Tejas SP1 to be handed over to IAF in March 2015.*

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## sancho

sathya said:


> *FOC by Dec 2015*.



 So from mid 2015 delayed to end of 2015???


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## sathya

sancho said:


> So from mid 2015 delayed to end of 2015???



i hope mk2 rolls out soon.


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## sancho

sathya said:


> i hope mk2 rolls out soon.



With this slow movement on getting MK1 ready, do you really think DRDO will be faster with MK2 that is only on drawing board, while they are distracted by N-LCA and now also by AMCA as it seems?
It just shows how badly DRDO is managed and where they put their priorities. Not on delivering, but on promising things!


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## sathya

GE 414 SN6, will be delivered 2015, hopefully mk2 will fly by 2016


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## sancho

sathya said:


> GE 414 SN6, will be delivered 2015, hopefully mk2 will fly by 2016



First we need to have even a mock up of the MK2 airframe to integrate the engine, fuel tanks and avionics, before we can even start ground tests. With FOC of MK1 running at the same time, it will be difficult to get MK2 done too. As I said in another thread, it doesn't matter how manny projects DRDO has running, but how many of them they actually can deliver to the forces!

- LCA MK1 SP1 IOC 2 standard
- LCA MK1 SP2 FOC standard
- N-LCA NP2 hopefully with a hook
- LCA MK2 moving to prototype stage
- N-LCA MK2 concept stage
- AMCA concept stage

And they wonder why things constantly get further delayed?


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## sathya

sancho said:


> - LCA MK1 SP1 IOC 2 standard
> - LCA MK1 SP2 FOC standard
> - N-LCA NP2 hopefully with a hook
> - LCA MK2 moving to prototype stage
> - N-LCA MK2 concept stage
> - AMCA concept stage
> And they wonder why things constantly get further delayed?



Now HAL will manufacture only sp1 this year. + NP2 if thats taken into account for FOC and SP (serial production)

next year 2015 --> 8 tejas max in IOC configuration will be produced.

By God s grace if FOC is achieved in 2015 december, will HAL, UPDATE the production standard to FOC standards by jan 2016 or will they continue the remaining 10 in IOC standards itself ?


I can't understand why Manohar Parrikar said 20-30 tejas will be inducted soon..

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/546048306086821888

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/546048561243111424


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/545974356522696705


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/545974096568135680

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## Wolfhound

can someone post the specifications of lca mk1 vs lca mk2


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## sathya

*BREAKING: Pilot walks in for NP1 ski take off now at Goa.

*


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## sathya

#BreakingNews #NLCA #NPI completes first ski-jump successfully from SBTF. #INSHansa @manoharparrikar @Oneindia

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: NLCA NP1 completes first successful take-off from SBTF

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## rockstarIN

Where it says foc by Dec 2015?


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## halupridol

foc next dec.....now lca has become a joke


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## Krate M

Delay due to non-supply by Cobham of quartz radar cone and inflight refuelling probe. Nothing ADA HAL IAF can do, except what has been done, which is that an IAF team has been sent to London to speed up the delivery.
Please read the tweets of saurav jha.

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## sudhir007

Krate M said:


> Delay due to non-supply by Cobham of quartz radar cone and inflight refuelling probe. Nothing ADA HAL IAF can do, except what has been done, which is that an IAF team has been sent to London to speed up the delivery.
> Please read the tweets of saurav jha.


ok then what happened to BVR and Gun firing ?

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## sathya

sudhir007 said:


> ok then what happened to BVR and Gun firing ?




We can WVR firing, for BVR at max range not sure if composite nose cone has the required tracking range.

We may have to wait until quartz nose cone arrives..

Gun firing and AoA increment should be possible.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/546048306086821888



Which only shows that the Israeli LDP and the Israeli LGBs work fine, but that neither shows capability of the fighter itself, nor does it solve the FOC problems. We have to keep in mind, that apart from the nose and the IFR probe, the FOC requires to reach certain flight performance milestones, just as the full integration of BVR missiles, which however is dependent on a working radar with reasonable performance. If that was so easy, why didn't DRDO had integrated the Derby missiles already with the current nose and radar performance? Why did they evaluated alternatives and waited till they are available?



Wolfhound said:


> can someone post the specifications of lca mk1 vs lca mk2



LCA MK1:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ypw_Ma1gug/TVeFu_sULnI/AAAAAAAAAHM/zKh2MylRys4/s1600/DSC03688.JPG

LCA MK2:
LIVEFIST: LCA Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India

There aren't more infos out on MK2 yet.



sudhir007 said:


> ok then what happened to BVR and Gun firing ?



Exactly, there is more to do or that needed to be done to reach FOC and we now only hear about the problems related to Chobham, but what about the rest?


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## Krate M

I think the gun firing will be the last thing to be tested. Apart from that the remaining things should be clarified in aero India, so couple of months of wait for info and 3 months for first plane handover to IAF.


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## sathya

Krate M said:


> I think the gun firing will be the last thing to be tested. Apart from that the remaining things should be clarified in aero India, so couple of months of wait for info and 3 months for first plane handover to IAF.



why should we wait ? already ground testing done i think (can some one confirm?)

we have sufficient examples in LSP .. cant we test it simultaneously?

what if problems crop up with gun firing? it will delay it na?


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## SpArK

Awesome moment India's own naval LCA fighter prototype roared off a shore-based ski jump in Goa today.

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## lightoftruth

*FULL OFFICIAL STATEMENT: *It was a defining moment when LCA (Navy) Prototype 1 (NP1), the first indigenously designed and developed 4th plus generation combat aircraft designed to operate from the decks of air-craft carriers, took-off majestically from Ski-Jump facility of Shore Based Test Facility at INS Hansa in Goa at about 12:34 PM today the 20th December 2014.

Piloted by Commodore Jaideep Maolankar, the Chief Test Pilot of National Flight Test Centre, the aircraft had a perfect flight with results matching the predicted ones to the letter. The launch was orchestrated by the Test Director Cdr J D Raturi and Safety Pilot Capt Shivnath Dahiya supported by Gp Capt Anoop Kabadwal, Gp Capt RR Tyagi and Lt Cdr Vivek Pandey. The readiness and availability of aircraft for the event was made possible through the relentless effort of HAL, ARDC under the aegis of Mr P S Roy the Executive Director.

Dr Avinash Chander, SA to RM, Secretary DDR&D DG DRDO congratulated the LCA Navy program team and said, "With today's copybook flight of LCA-Navy from the land based ski-jump facility we see our own indigenous combat aircrafts soon flying from the decks of our aircraft carriers.” Congratulating the team Dr Tamilmani, DS & DG Aeronautics, said “A complex task of Ski Jump of NP1 Executed beautifully”.

LCA (Navy) is designed with stronger landing gears to absorb forces exerted by the ski jump ramp during take-off, to be airborne within 200 m as against 1000m required for normal runways. It’s special flight control law mode allows hands-free take-off relieving the pilot workload, as the aircraft leaps from the ramp and automatically puts the aircraft in an ascending trajectory. The maiden successful, picture perfect launch of NP1 from ski jump at Shore Based Test Facility at Goa is a testimony to the tremendous efforts put in by scientists and engineers to design the Naval aircraft, its simulator (that helps pilots to know well in advance how the aircraft will behave on ski jump) and the flight test team that timed the whole event to near perfection. It can be stated with conviction “The indigenous Indian Naval Carrier Borne Aviation program has been launched, literally from the Ski-Jump".

The LCA Navy program team of ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) is jubilant on achieving the remarkable feat that is the culmination of several years of design, flight test, simulation and management effort with significant contributions from a number of DRDO laboratories. The teams were ably supported by the certification agency, CEMILAC and the quality assurance agency, CRI (LCA). INS Hansa, the Naval Air Station played the perfect host to achieve this significant milestone. The design teams guided by Program Director ADA Shri P S Subramanyam have ensured that all systems meet the stringent requirements of Carrier borne aircraft. Cmde C D Balaji (Retd) as Project Director LCA (Navy) and it’s Chief Designer has been at the helm of affairs right from the concept phase. The team led by Dr Amitabh Saraf indigenously achieved the flight control laws that take care of the problems encountered by a fly by wire aircraft undertaking a Ski Jump Launch.

The Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) has been created to replicate the aircraft carrier with a Ski Jump for take-off and arresting gear cable for arrested landing; by ADA with the participation of the Indian Navy, Goa shipyard, CCE (R&D) West, Pune, R&D Engg (E) Pune and the Russian agencies providing the design support and specialized equipment.

LIVEFIST: Full Details Of LCA Navy 1st Ski-Jump FlightLIVEFIST: Full Details Of LCA Navy 1st Ski-Jump Flight

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## Krate M

It will be done last to determine effect of gun firing vibration and gas generated during firing on the payload configurations that are known to be stable beforehand. My guess.

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## sathya

Krate M said:


> It will be done last to determine effect of gun firing vibration and gas generated during firing on the payload configurations that are known to be stable beforehand. My guess.



India should market LCA Tejas Trainer has lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) | Page 5

post #61

*LCA update #2: Gun firing demonstrated from ground to user for all necessary parameters. Airborne testing in Jamnagar. *


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## sathya

*Anantha Krishnan M*‏@writetake

Is suggesting that arrested landing may happen in 6-8 months time.

So guys don't have high hopes for NP2 to have the hook.


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## monitor

32 years on, IAF to get Tejas fighters in March


Saturday, December 20, 2014

By : TNN




Thirty-two years after the LCA project was sanctioned, IAF will finally get its first home-grown Tejas fighter in March 2015. The multi-role jet is now ready to fly in all-weather conditions but cannot yet fire long-range missiles as well as undergo mid-air refuelling to double its strike range.





NEW DELHI: Thirty-two years after the light combat aircraft (LCA) project was sanctioned, IAF will finally get its first home-grown Tejas fighter in March 2015. But before you pop the bubbly, consider this: the multi-role jet is now ready to fly in all-weather conditions but cannot yet fire long-range missiles as well as undergo mid-air refuelling to double its strike range.

The first Tejas will be delivered to IAF at Bangalore in its initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration, which basically means it's fully airworthy now. But the fighter's final operational clearance (FOC) to make it combat-ready — with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well capable of air-to-air refuelling — has once again been delayed.

The Tejas Mark-II, the fighter IAF really wants with more powerful engines for greater thrust and drag reduction, will start to come only by 2021-2022. With the first preliminary design review for the Mark-II version now over, the plan is to fly its first prototype by 2017 or so.

"The first of IOC standard aircraft has been built and successfully completed its maiden flight on September 30 this year. This aircraft will be handed over to IAF by March 2015 after some upgrades," defence minister Manohar Parrikar told Lok Sabha on Friday.

"The second aircraft will also be ready by March 2015 for its maiden flight. The first 20 aircraft will be built by 2017-2018...FOC is likely to be achieved by end of 2015," he added.

The delivery of the first Tejas will certainly be a red-letter day in the project's meandering saga, with even IAF now confident of the lightweight fighter. "The handling of Tejas and other features are much better than a MiG-21 Bison. But the long delay is the problem," said an officer.

The first Tejas squadron of 20 jets in the IOC configuration will initially be based in Bangalore to resolve teething problems. It will later be shifted to the Sulur airbase in Tamil Nadu, which will also get the second squadron in FOC configuration.

Work is now underway to accelerate the development of the Tejas Mark-II, including airframe changes to take the new American GE-414 engines, which will constitute four squadrons with 80 jets. The first 40 Tejas are to be powered by GE-404 engines.

IAF has been forced to extend the operational life of virtually obsolete MiG-21s, which will now be retired only by 2025, due to the huge delay in the LCA project. The Tejas will meet the lightweight fighter requirements of IAF, which is down to just 34 fighter squadrons, while the heavyweight one is being taken care of by the 272 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs being inducted for $12 billion. The medium range is to be met by the yet-to-be finalised $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters.


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## rockstarIN

I started tracking LCA development in my early twenties and now the 'real fighter' Mk-2 will start production in 2022, means I will track the developments in my 40's as well.

We should have fetched the Lavi Design before the Chinese!


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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> I started tracking LCA development in my early twenties and now the 'real fighter' Mk-2 will start production in 2022, means I will stack the developments in my 40's as well.
> 
> We should have fetched the Lavi Design before the Chinese!



I started in the year 2001
We may see AMCA before we come in next avatar..

Now let us enjoy whatever little we get, let's wait for NP2

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## CONNAN

*ONE OF THE BEST TEJAS VIDEO WORTH A WATCH*

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## sudhir007



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## GORKHALI



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## GORKHALI



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## Krate M

Sexay sexay ekdam sexay

Lo yeh ban gaya mera naya profile pic

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## Wolfhound

sancho said:


> LCA MK1:
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ypw_Ma1gug/TVeFu_sULnI/AAAAAAAAAHM/zKh2MylRys4/s1600/DSC03688.JPG
> 
> LCA MK2:
> LIVEFIST: LCA Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India
> 
> There aren't more infos out on MK2 yet.


thanks


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## CONNAN



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## sathya

IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tejas mk 1 orders so far

1. IAF 40 ( 32 ss + 8 ts) 
2. IAF 16 ts proposed 
3. IN 8 ( 4 ss + 4 ts )
( ss = single seater, ts = twin seater)

*TOTAL = 62 *

Not bad right ? before mk 2 
would have been even better if a additional squadron of IAF mk1 ss aircraft ordered making the total 82.


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## sancho

sathya said:


> 2. IAF 16 ts proposed



Source?



sathya said:


> would have been even better if a additional squadron of IAF mk1



Depends on production capacity (when the squadron would be available), how capable the final MK1 actually will be and where it will be stationed. The first two for example will be stationed at the newly raised airbase in the south, so not even replacing older Migs. On paper that adds to squadron strength, but in reality every squad we loose at the eastern or western boders will get replacements only by MK2 or MMRCA.


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## MehrotraPrince

*Rare photograph (Notice center hardpoint)*

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## sathya

sancho said:


> Source?



IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org

s jha was also pointing to the same


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## Abingdonboy

MehrotraPrince said:


> *Rare photograph (Notice center hardpoint)*


Nice to see a fully loaded LCA.


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## sancho

sathya said:


> IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org
> 
> s jha was also pointing to the same



Read that, but idrw is not really a reliable source and their claim that IAF will order no twin seater MK2s is just baseless.



kurup said:


> According to is spec ,
> 
> empty weight = 6560 kg
> 
> internal fuel = 2458 kg
> 
> So clean take-off weight = 6560 + 2458 = 9018 kg
> 
> But operational Take-off clean weight is shown as 9800 kg .



As @levina pointed out, the the take off weight includes more things than the internal fuel only, the confusion mainly comes from DRDO terming it as "clean" take off weight, which usually would imply no external payloads or pylons, but the most likely case is, that they include the 2 x R73 and the pylons we usually see at LCA tests. That alone should add around 300Kg, but there is also a confusion if the take off weight is 9800Kg, or if it went down to 9500Kg as the official ADA LCA website shows. But then again, nothing is clear and simple in this project is it?

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho 

Why will a Fully qualified and fully operational pilot of LCA MK1 need a trainer for Mk 2

Mk 2 wil just have additional thrust of 414 engine plus better avionics 

You dont need a twin seater for getting used to just these two different things


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> Why will a Fully qualified and fully operational pilot of LCA MK1 need a trainer for Mk 2
> 
> Mk 2 wil just have additional thrust of 414 engine plus better avionics
> 
> You dont need a twin seater for getting used to just these two different things



Because the twin seater was never meant to be "just" a trainer, but to be a twin seat combat fighter:

IAF to order 16 more HAL LCA Tejas Mark I Twin Seater Trainer Aircrafts | Page 2

That logically means, that we will go for twin seat combat versions of LCA MK2, with the same capabilities the single seater version has.

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## IrbiS

AirForces Monthly 2014-12

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## sancho

> Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
> 
> One major reason for the LCA program delay was the inability of Project managers to foresee issues with Amrika. So eager were they...



 Really?


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## sathya

Only two days to go ..

No news about NP2 yet.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Really?


Ya its a failure from project manager's part that they did not anticipate Ameriki move even after full knowledge of nuke test!


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## KalaGhoda

Is it my eyes playing with me or the recent prototypes seem to have a higher angle of attack...looks more hooked..am I imagining it ?


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## Jayanta

Hope you guys will enjoy it.

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## greatone

KalaGhoda said:


> Is it my eyes playing with me or the recent prototypes seem to have a higher angle of attack...looks more hooked..am I imagining it ?


Errr... what ?


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## sathya

DRDO readies on-flight oxygen generator for Tejas | idrw.org


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## MilSpec

Jayanta said:


> Hope you guys will enjoy it.


I did, thanks for posting

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## sathya

starting point of take off is intentionally left out in all videos


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## Jayanta

sathya said:


> starting point of take off is intentionally left out in all videos



They did mention that it was 300 meters...and in further tests the distance will be brought down.


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> the bigger point is that the IAF has still till date not specified the main BVR missile for LCA, correct me if I am wrong. The default option is derby thanks to Navy.



Because the fighter is only in development yet and didn't have integrated any BVR missiles because of the radar / nose problems. At this point, it doesn't matter what missile any of the force intends to use, because as said that's only a logistical problem of them, but makes no difference in the development of the fighter. 



Krate M said:


> The new engine requirement right at the beginning, while carrying on with the current engine, levcons introduced, sloping of the nose all requirements were specified at the word go.



Wrong, the use of Derby was just decided in the recent years, when they also decided about the content of the MK2 upgrade, the rest is the modification to the naval version and only that was decided at the begining, which is what we see today in the NP1 and NP2, which however are based on the MK1 and therefor don't have AESA the new engine... 



Krate M said:


> IN is on record saying that for surface operations LCA thrust is more than adequate, and is capable of handling current threats in our milleu when the weapons testing will be over.



Not really, the whole thrust increase to 90+ kN is soley based on IN's requirements. There are several reports where Navy pilots or officials are saying that N-LCA is just a modest platform and mainly a project to cover the naval fighter development side, not because it's a capable platform and there are several officials that criticized DRDO and ADA for mistakes and delays in the project, which is even why Airbus was hired to solve problems.



Krate M said:


> IN has looked into AMCA, and made calculations that suggested that the modifications required for naval AMCA will not be as extensive as LCA due to the structure of the plane. So a naval version will not be an issue.



LOL, where did you get that from?  IN want to go for catapults, therefor any future indigenous carrier fighter will need more changes compared to N-LCA, not less and that doesn't even include the changes that a stealth design cause, just the basic fact that the navalisation alone is far more demanding.


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## KalaGhoda

greatone said:


> Errr... what ?



I'm not so good with the technical terms so pardon my ignorance. It feels like the nlca is slightly more hooked like a hooked nose..am I imagining it ?


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## Krate M

@sancho Not true missiles are not plug and play hardware, you need interfacing and CFD testing before actual firing.

Derby use due to logistics and Israeli back end of MMR was considered by IN, was included early. They also have Mig 29K, but they were practical in demand.

Aesa not included due to practical reasons.

Higher thrust required due to sea level operations.
Boeing consultancy for landing gear weight reduction mainly.
Delay due to focus on air force focus of LCA program main criticism, over estimation of capabilities as well as underestimation of navalization challenge was shared criticism.

Modest platform compared to MIGs and Rafael, shornet etc. Modest *naval *platform.

AMCA undercarriage structure doesn't need major strengthening for naval operations.

Catapult operations also factored.

@KalaGhoda
NLCA cockpit is drooping more for carrier ops, visibility angle is increased.


Happy new year all
May LCA be inducted into IAF next year and hopefully get FOC too.
Should see a lot of news on this.

Where the hell is NP2?

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## Abingdonboy

Krate M said:


> Catapult operations also factored.


Oh really? Got any sources for this assertion bro?


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh really? Got any sources for this assertion bro?


 There has been no "factoring" for catapult operations.


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> There has been no "factoring" for catapult operations.


I didn't think so....


----------



## Water Car Engineer



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## Brahma Bull

Awesome video.Hats off !
Loved the slo-mo part.
And also the onboard cockpit camera footage !


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## sathya

Awesome video, I think India improved in this sector too... 
Nice advertisement for the future sales ..


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## Krate M

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh really? Got any sources for this assertion bro?


Talk with ada people in ai13
Frontal shock on undercarriage due to catapult ops has been studied in computational models, NAMCA undercarriage will be strengthened but not to the extent of LCA.
Shock dispersion was difficult in LCA due to small size. Therefore the undercarriage had to be strengthened considerably, led to weight increase.
AMCA structure is different and the LCA experience has helped.
Also NLCA landing gear is over engineered, so can be lightened. To accelerate the process Boeing help taken.

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## SQ8

Thread now too large, continue in new thread here
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]


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