# German Army Continues to Swallow Its Neighbors



## Vergennes

@Blue Marlin @flamer84 @Nilgiri 
-





Soldiers of armored infantry battalion Panzergrenadierbataillon 122 of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces.(Johannes Simon/Getty Images)

Czech Republic and Romania are sending major chunks of their armies to the Bundeswehr.


A Czech and Romanian brigade will be integrated into divisions of the German army. The agreement is to be signed at a meeting of nato defense ministers tomorrow. The _Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung_ (faz), which broke the story on February 2, wrote, “The Bundeswehr is developing into the leading nato army in Europe.”

The agreement is the most dramatic of a series of arrangements Germany is negotiating to deepen its cooperation with other countries. The _EU Observer_ summarized the faz’s report, noting, “The longer-term strategy would turn the Bundeswehr into the leading nato army in Europe, with small countries integrating their military forces into the German command structures.”

Two thirds of the Dutch army’s command structure began to integrate into the German army last year.







The faz wrote (_Trumpet_ translation throughout): “This policy means Germany strengthens its own military power and, secondly, it creates practical road marks for the goal of European armed forces.”

The revolutionary handover of sovereignty from the Netherlands is already being seen as a proof of concept that other nations can follow, providing “the closest and most varied example of how far the military cooperation between two nato states can go” (ibid). Last year, German defense minister Ursula von der Leyen set out her ambitions to create “a multinational Panzer division” by integrating soldiers from other nations into the German army.

_Die Welt_ explained, “This should create a unit with up to 20,000 active soldiers, which should be operational by 2021—which would be the nucleus of a European army” (March 17).

Now von der Leyen is taking further practical steps in that direction. The Czech 4th Rapid Deployment Brigade will be integrated into the 10th German Panzer Division and the Romanian 81st Mechanized Brigade will be assigned to Germany’s Rapid Force Division.

These are not mere token forces. The Czech Republic is integrating one of its two combat brigades into the German army (this does not include combat support forces, such as the 13th Artillery Regiment).

On February 13, Reuters reported that unnamed sources with the defense ministry say that Germany also plans to lay out plans to create a joint fleet of transport aircraft with France and to join a joint fleet of tanker aircraft with the Netherlands.

At first glance, the plans seem unimpressive. The Franco-German fleet would begin with 10 transport planes. The United States operates more than 5,000. However, Europe is so short of transport planes that even an additional 10 will make a difference. This move is also a proof of concept. If successful, it will serve as a platform that more and more units can be added to. With Britain on the way out, France and Germany are the European Union’s two largest militaries. If they can prove that they can share resources and work together, there’s great potential for cooperation.

Germany will also sign a declaration of intent to join the Multinational Multi-role Tanker Transport Fleet of aircraft led by the Netherlands. The group also includes Luxembourg; Belgium and Norway may also join. Germany said it could spend up to €1 billion on planes, which would be based in the Netherlands and in Germany.

Germany will also expand its cooperation with Norway, with plans to work together in buying submarines and missiles.

Germany has made no secret of the fact that it aims to build a European army through these deals with other nations. It is creating a network of military cooperation—with Germany at the center. In 2013 then-Defense Minister Thomas de Maizière concluded that efforts to create a European army in one sweep were simply not working. Instead, he aimed to create much deeper cooperation within individual nations, gradually building the nucleus of a European army out of bilateral cooperation.

“If Germany can prove that integration can work with the Netherlands and Poland—and they can save a lot of money doing so—other nations will want in. Once Berlin brings a few more countries on line, this project will gain critical mass,” we wrote at the time. “The result would be an EU army, or a very closely coordinated group of armies, centered on Germany.”

U.S. President Donald Trump’s insistence that Europe must bear the burden, the cost and the responsibility of defending itself is further encouraging this effort. Von der Leyen said that German requests to do more were “fair.” They certainly encourage other nations to sign up to the initiatives that Germany began long before Mr. Trump launched his bid for the presidency.

The timing of Germany’s push is deliberate. From February 17 to 19, national defense leaders, politicians and academics will gather in Germany for the Munich Security Conference. Talk of EU military cooperation is included in the conference’s annual report, which has been published ahead of the event. The report includes an infographic illustrating how far the Dutch have gone in integrating with the Germany army. With so much uncertainty about President Trump’s plans for Europe’s defense, extra attention is being focused on the conference this year to see what America will do, and how Europe will react. European military integration is definitely on the agenda.

The rise of a Europe capable of fielding a powerful military force, independent from the United States, would be one of the biggest geopolitical events in the last century and would revolutionize the balance of power around the world.

Herbert W. Armstrong warned of this exact military union for decades. In May 1953, he wrote that “10 powerful European nations will _combine_ their forces.” In August 1978, he warned: “The Europeans are far more disturbed about their safety in relying on United States military power to protect them than Americans realize! …

“_Europeans want their own united military power!_ They know that a political union of Europe would produce a _third major world power,_ as strong as either the U.S. or the ussr_—possibly stronger!”_

He saw that this cooperation would not come easily. But Europe is being forced in this direction. For more on how this force is coming together, read our article “Is Europe Finally Ready for an Army?” ▪

https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/...erman-army-continues-to-swallow-its-neighbors

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## Silverblaze

So its the 4th reich? May be Germany is becoming another behemoth or it could be that US has quietly asked the germans to play a leading role in Europe against Russia while US takes the back seat.


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## Pakistani E

@Vergennes I think this news was broadcasted by a British newspaper before the E.U referendum and the remainers dismissed as fear mongering. Now it seems to be coming true...

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## Blue Marlin

the czech's and the Romanians are scared of the big bad bear. and hide under the EU umbrella. they dont do it because they want to, its because they have no other choice can you imagine a war where its romania vs russia? russia will snap them up in a fortnight worst case scenario.

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## Vergennes

Blue Marlin said:


> the czech's and the Romanians are scared of the big bad bear. and hide under the EU umbrella. they dont do it because they want to, its because they have no other choice can you imagine a war where its romania vs russia? russia will snap them up in a fortnight worst case scenario.



Germany with its pacifist doctrine post WW2 can't be relied upon to lead the defence of Europe and its interests. It's totally useless in fact,unless Germany adopts a more aggressive and active posture,which will probably never happen. I suggest France to sallow everyone to make it something serious.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> Germany with its pacifist doctrine post WW2 can't be relied upon to lead the defence of Europe and its interests. It's totally useless in fact,unless Germany adopts a more aggressive and active posture,which will probably never happen. I suggest France to sallow everyone to make it something serious.


indeed france is more suited but do you realistically see it happening......??????
or we come up with a dastardly plan. we develop some kind of syrum to change the minds of the germand to be more agressive. but not to agressive we all know what happens when the germans are angry.

but kidding aside it wont happen. i think its more of a post ww2 shock thats still around just like japan in a way. they are never offensive only defensive.

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## Vergennes

Blue Marlin said:


> indeed france is more suited but do you realistically see it happening......??????



France has currently the most potent and active military of the EU,it would be natural to take the lead of the European defence,but will probably never happen.



> or we come up with a dastardly plan. we develop some kind of syrum to change the minds of the germand to be more agressive. but not to agressive we all know what happens when the germans are angry.



They'll unleash their anger at us and Poland,as always. 



> but kidding aside it wont happen. i think its more of a post ww2 shock thats still around just like japan in a way. they are never offensive only defensive.



Germany has the capacity to become the leading European military if it really wanted. But it doesn't want.

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## Penguin

Silverblaze said:


> So its the 4th reich? May be Germany is becoming another behemoth or it could be that US has quietly asked the germans to play a leading role in Europe against Russia while US takes the back seat.


No, Its simply a matter of efficiency. E.g. alone, for the Netherlands it would be relativeluy expensive to maintain is (token) force of 18 (!) Leopard II. Integrated into a German unit, the Dutch tankers can use the German maintenance and logistics infra, while the German unit get more tanks. It simply means they train together. And when push comes to shove, we all band together, like we already did during the cold war (only in those days, the units were much larger and hence integrated higher up in the command structure, and much less operationally, although very well muytually adjusted). 

It is an inevitable development as military equipment gets more expensive. There will be role specialization, unit integration, common sourcing or equipment etc. That is the only way to maintain credible defence as a group of nations, that on their own would have a hard time providing that.



Blue Marlin said:


> the czech's and the Romanians are scared of the big bad bear. and hide under the EU umbrella. they dont do it because they want to, its because they have no other choice can you imagine a war where its romania vs russia? russia will snap them up in a fortnight worst case scenario.


Oh, so the EU is forcing them, you mean? 

Reminder: the Czech Republic joined NATO in 1999 (together with Hungary and Poland, whereas Romania joined NATO in 2004, together with Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, and Slovenia (2004). The military cooperation has been going on much longer under NATO flag than any EU initative, and predates recent Russian attitude.

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## Awan68

Blue Marlin said:


> indeed france is more suited but do you realistically see it happening......??????
> or we come up with a dastardly plan. we develop some kind of syrum to change the minds of the germand to be more agressive. but not to agressive we all know what happens when the germans are angry.
> 
> but kidding aside it wont happen. i think its more of a post ww2 shock thats still around just like japan in a way. they are never offensive only defensive.


The french are famous for surrendering in wars, they have no will as a nation to protect anyone else, mark my words in the next world war the french will again be an occupied country lol, the germans are more suited for the defense of europe, the pacifist nature is of their govt, the german people are still the toughest in europe..

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## Penguin

Vergennes said:


> France has currently the most potent and active military of the EU,it would be natural to take the lead of the European defence,but will probably never happen.


Oh? I believe France has 200 LeClerc mbts active (of 406 total) versus over 328 Leo 2A6/A7/A7+ (of 403 owned). France has no equivalent vehicle(s) for Marder (200) and Puma (78 of 350 on order), not even its 100+ or so AMX-10P . In SPGH's, France's 32 tracked AMX-30 AuF1 and 77 wheeled Ceasar versus 100 PzH-2000. In M270 MLRS's , France's 13 versus Germany's 38. 

Germany has no equivalent vehicles that compare with France's 90 ECR-90 and 248 AMX-20R. France has 629 VBCI 8x8 armored vehicles, 2,661 VAB 4x4 or 6x6 armoured vehicles, 1,466 VBLs 4x4 and 1,181 PVP 4x4 armored cars, as well as 14 Nexter Aravis MRAPs. 53 bv206S and BvS10. Total vehicles = 6,342
By comparison, Germany has 272 (of 403 on order) GTK Boxer 8x8 armored vehicles, 1100 TPz Fuchs 6x6 armored vehicles, 725 Dingo 1/2 4x4 armored Infantry mobility vehicle, 217 (of 248 ordered) Fennek 4x4 armored reconaissance vehicle, 495 Eagle IV +176 Eagle V 4x4 MRAP, > 400 Mungo ESK MRAP, 296 YAK MRAP, 331 Enok armored cars, 272 Wiesel 1/2 airborne tracked armored vehicle. 379 armored tracked BV-206S. Total vehicles = 4,487. So, here we find France has more 'light' armor. Then again, given its wider overseas territory, France also has to spread its forces more around the globe.



Vergennes said:


> Germany has the capacity to become the leading European military if it really wanted. But it doesn't want.


And that's a good thing! Given Brexit, maybe we could ask the Italian or Spanjards? Of, better yet, the Dutch?

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## flamer84

Good luck in building the 4th Reich with the T55's the Romanian 81st brigade has,lol...Stalingrad all over again,lel...Leo's 2A7 next to T55's,Boxers next to BTR 70's...glorious Euro Army!

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## vostok

@Vergennes What do you think - can these events in future revive the traditional alliance of France and Russia?

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## Vergennes

Awan68 said:


> The french are famous for surrendering in wars



Sorry,but you should keep a low profile seeing Pakistani's military record. France has fought more wars,battles,entire coalitions and succeeded much more than Pakistan ever did/will do. The country you insult currently gave a lot of military words and terms for the world.



> they have no will as a nation to protect anyone else



What did happen when the Malians asked the French for assistance ? Yeah,hours later,the air force and the special forces were already begining the combat missions,while the major forces were heading to Mali from French military bases in Africa and mainland France.



> mark my words in the next world war the french will again be an occupied country lol, the germans are more suited for the defense of europe, the pacifist nature is of their govt, the german people are still the toughest in europe..



Maybe you forgot that France was a nuclear armed state ? That it would make use of its weapons,in case the nation is endengered. German people,toughest in Europe,lol what a joke. Germany has still this pacifist nature and will never adopt an agressive and active one,the German public and politicians are reluctent to send their soldiers to fight anywhere or to drop any bomb. We have this exemple of Germany sending planes to Syria/Iraq just for reconaissance missions or sending soldiers to Mali to 'support' France,but are no way to be seen on the frontline,they are way behind. 



vostok said:


> @Vergennes What do you think - can these events in future revive the traditional alliance of France and Russia?



You can have an answer in three months,depending on who will lead our state. Pretty all the major candidates want improved relations,cooperation with Russia. The likes of Fillon,Le Pen,or even the leftist Mélenchon. Don't remember which one even proposed to work on military industry with Russia. 




flamer84 said:


> Good luck in building the 4th Reich with the T55's the Romanian 81st brigade has,lol...Stalingrad all over again,lel...Leo's 2A7 next to T55's,Boxers next to BTR 70's...glorious Euro Army!



It is oubvious that they will offer everyone Leo2A7+,Boxer vehicles,PZH2000 etc. Otherwise,they can keep their EU army for them.

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## mike2000 is back

Awan68 said:


> I would reserve my reply for a saner individual...


he is right i'm afraid. You cant compare Pakistan's military track record or capabilities with that of a world power like France. It's laughable. In fact you cant compare any south Asian country's military track record/history with that of France, France has far more military successes than any south Asian country(much less Pakistan) has/will ever in the foreseeable future.

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## Vergennes

mike2000 is back said:


> lool what are you smoking dude? so the fact that i disagree with your points means i'm Indian?  Some of people on here make me laugh.  When you have ran out of any sensible counter arguments you respect to calling people names or telling them which country they should be from. lol seems its the easiest way to deflect the topic for members on here. Whenever i say something an Iranian doesn't like they call me an Arab, of i say something about India which Indians don't like i'm Pakistani or Chinese , if i say something a Pakistani or Chinese doesn't like i'm Indian and the list goes on. You people can keep claiming what you like when you don't have much to say, i couldn't careless.



He said "I would reserve my reply for a saner individual",thinking I would interact with a serious person,but ends up calling people names,insult them and literally suppose that you are an Indian,or "a bollywood infested toad".

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## mike2000 is back

0


Vergennes said:


> He said "I would reserve my reply for a saner individual",thinking I would interact with a serious person,but ends up calling people names,insult them and literally suppose that you are an Indian,or "a bollywood infested toad".


lol who cares anyway. I have had all sort of names and countries labeled at me from being called a Chinese during my first weeks/months on here to Iranian, to Saudi/Arab/wahabists to white supremacists to even Pakistani etc etc. I have heard it all. lol To most people on here(especially those from the developing world) when you say something that isn't always favorable to their home country no matter the point you are making, then they will label you all sorts of names(especially labeling you with the country which they see as their rival or enemy). That's what i have noticed during my 3 years on here. 
Not that i care though, doesn't affect me, my job or my family. In fact it's more fun having such members,,else this forum will be boring to be honest. 



Vergennes said:


> He said "I would reserve my reply for a saner individual",thinking I would interact with a serious person


well, to make things easier/simple. Just ask one simple obvious question: Can he give us one major military sector where Pakistan or any South Asian/Muslim country for that matter is ahead of France?

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## Taygibay

A - the fact that the amateurish present day Bundeswehr
incorporates other EU units is a source of concern indeed
for the defense of Europe.

B - Brits are not that stupid but French are that direct :
 . . . . . .  you're too loud for the quality of your message!

That should cover everything so good convo all, Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

Penguin said:


> Oh, so the EU is forcing them, you mean?
> 
> Reminder: the Czech Republic joined NATO in 1999 (together with Hungary and Poland, whereas Romania joined NATO in 2004, together with Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, and Slovenia (2004). The military cooperation has been going on much longer under NATO flag than any EU initative, and predates recent Russian attitude.


where did i say the eu is forcing them? there are doing it out of need not pressure. honestly its a good idea but then your reliant of the eu for your protection. countries like and france can hold their own but germany......?
the main idea of this is to create an eu army to reduce dependency from the usa.



Awan68 said:


> The french are famous for surrendering in wars, they have no will as a nation to protect anyone else, mark my words in the next world war the french will again be an occupied country lol, the germans are more suited for the defense of europe, the pacifist nature is of their govt, the german people are still the toughest in europe..


god help you my child...........

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## Vergennes

Awan68 said:


> O go up in flames u bollywood infested toad, pakistan only lost one war while we won the 2 others with india and we broke up the soviet union( a super power), we only lost in 71 cause of a geographical anamoly, the intervention and active support of a superpower soviet union to india, soviet navy had us bottled down and we gave up in bengal cause karachi was under threat and western pakistan was in danger of bieng occupier, now lets come to the french, in ww1 they were numerically and in terms of weapons superior to the the germans yet were whipped die to german military genius, same thing happened in ww2 where again the surrendered to germany and lost their capital, now thats two massaive surrenders of thier entire country in a space of 25 yrs and u have the audacity to drag pakistan in to this??? And Mali asked assistance?? Wtf man??? Are u off ur rockers?? Did u seriously just compare a conflict between 3rd world ill equiped defenseless african nations to a conflict between russia and europe??, and no the germans are not pacifist, thier govt tries to be cause they have to maintain and pacifist and peace ful inage after what they did in ww2 lol, idiot races dont change over several decades, the germans are the toughest race in europe, no one but an obvious indian troll will refute this fact...



Who talked about France protecting Europe ? I meant an EU army led by France. 

@mike2000 is back @Blue Marlin Apparently,Germany and Germans are not pacifist,it's just their govt,trying to give this image to the world,because WW2.


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## NKVD

mike2000 is back said:


> comparing the two countries military capabilities is laughable to be honest.


Why Conventionally France And Pakistan are Equal In militaristic Terms Please Come into Our Terrains you Will get How Fighting a war From ground Is different from Sitting in your basement typing on Keyboard US thought Same Like during Vietnam What happened after is History 


mike2000 is back said:


> lol As i said your country or any South Asian country for that matter is nowhere near France in terms of military capabilities or ability to fight and sustain a war independently.


Coming From of US 51 State.Ohh My Sweet summer child

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## vostok

mike2000 is back said:


> lool I stopped reading here @vostok seems a small south Asian country was single handedly responsible for your breakdown.


Let people have their illusions.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> Who talked about France protecting Europe ? I meant an EU army led by France.
> 
> @mike2000 is back @Blue Marlin Apparently,Germany and Germans are not pacifist,it's just their govt,trying to give this image to the world,because WW2.


so there big bad and scary under the veil????????
i dont think so. the spaniards or the italians will probably have them.
ww2 has brought them down and they wont get back up again. have you seen their f125 "frigate"?
7000+ tonnes and it doesn't even have a vls.......wft......... the israeli saar5 has more teeth than it but at a fraction of the size.


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## vostok

Awan68 said:


> What illusions??, didnt the soviet union fall on its head after the failed campaign in afghanistan due to the afghan jihad led by pakistan and isi and supported by cia, but here a question arises, if the crown here goes to the cia than why were the yanks whipped in vietnam by russkies?? So my friend it was the isi which broke up the soviet union, this is a universally established fact yet u refute it to satisfy ut bruised egos and than have the audacity to call me dellusional...


USSR collapsed due to betrayal of senior Communist Party management and false reforms. Afghanistan has nothing to do with it. USSR could keep at least 2 such wars for decades without much effort.

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## mike2000 is back

Taygibay said:


> A - the fact that the amateurish present day Bundeswehr
> incorporates other EU units is a source of concern indeed
> for the defense of Europe.
> 
> B - Brits are not that stupid but French are that direct :
> . . . . . .  you're too loud for the quality of your message!
> 
> That should cover everything so good convo all, Tay.


Can't wait to see this E.U Army led by Germany functioning and protecting E.U countries interests around the globe. We were well aware of what was being planned ahead. So we will be watching from the sidelines with a popcorn in hand.  Just hope the Germans won't be leading this E.U army abroad with broomsticks as weapon during their training and operations overseas.

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## Awan68

vostok said:


> USSR collapsed due to betrayal of senior Communist Party management and false reforms. Afghanistan has nothing to do with it. USSR could keep at least 2 such wars for decades without much effort.


Right......


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## PaklovesTurkiye

@Vergennes @mike2000 is back ....We Pakistanis are little bit emotional...I as a Pakistani knows there is no comparison at all b/w France and Pakistan....

Pakistanis generally respect EU - Germany, UK and France of course - all with whom we have good friendly relations...

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## mike2000 is back

Blue Marlin said:


> so there big bad and scary under the veil????????
> i dont think so. the spaniards or the italians will probably have them.
> ww2 has brought them down and they wont get back up again. have you seen their f125 "frigate"?
> 7000+ tonnes and it doesn't even have a vls.......wft......... the israeli saar5 has more teeth than it but at a fraction of the size.


You don't seem to understand my French brother's @Vergennes sarcasm. lol He was merely being sarcastic towards the comment the other Pakistani guy made. lol
Everybody knows Germany is nowhere ready or willing to involve itself in offensive operations or engagements overseas like France, Britain, U.S and Russia have been doing post WWII. Germans don't want no part in that whatsôever. In fact U.S and U.K have been urging Germany to play a more active role in operations abroad and even spend more on its military for decades now but all that effort has been fruitless. Since WWII the German's psyche is firmly against anything military or fighting abroad whatever the reason(even if its against ISIS. lol ). I believe the U.S and U.K overdid it during their de-nazification of Germany after the war, it has left a deep scar on the German psyche which continues to this day and will continue for a long time to come.

What surprises me is that, despite all this, some German officials are still pushing for an E.U Army that will be obviously led by Germany. This will only make the E.U irrelevant militarily, not because Germany doesn't have the capabilities/skills/military industrial complex to match any world power(they do have all these better than many world powers), but simply because Germany isn't ready and doesn't want to involve itself in any offensive military operation overseas even when it involves protecting European interests. So i fail to see why they want this toothless E.U army so much. They should at least let France lead this E.U Army thing if they really want it so much. lol

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## TMA

vostok said:


> @Vergennes What do you think - can these events in future revive the traditional alliance of France and Russia?


Still, Russia should not trust France or Britian or USA. Remember what Tolstoy said...

Anyway they who hold power in the Modern West hate Orthodox Russia.


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## shahbaz baig

vostok said:


> USSR collapsed due to betrayal of senior Communist Party management and false reforms. Afghanistan has nothing to do with it. USSR could keep at least 2 such wars for decades without much effort.



i can see there is some spy behind the mask. what if i change my flag and start conspiracy ? dont take it serious especially from pakistani flag. we have nothing to do with west infect in this current scenario we are in favor of Russia and China


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## UKBengali

Vergennes said:


> Germany with its pacifist doctrine post WW2 can't be relied upon to lead the defence of Europe and its interests. It's totally useless in fact,unless Germany adopts a more aggressive and active posture,which will probably never happen. I suggest France to sallow everyone to make it something serious.



Are you joking here?

Germany has crushed France in every war in the 20th century - 1 million UK troops saved France in WW1.

Germans are simply far superior to the French. Even as far back as Roman times, French were totally defeated by Rome but the German tribes never were.



vostok said:


> USSR collapsed due to betrayal of senior Communist Party management and false reforms. Afghanistan has nothing to do with it. USSR could keep at least 2 such wars for decades without much effort.



12-14% average of GDP on defence spend since WW2 was the major reason.


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## Nilgiri

UKBengali said:


> Germans are simply far superior to the French. Even as far back as Roman times, French were totally defeated by Rome but the German tribes never were.



No need to be such an idiot all the time.







Any idea of what he did to Germany (more specifically what we call Germany today)? Do you know where the current German civil code even comes from?

@AUSTERLITZ you may want to educate this fool if you have a little time.

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## UKBengali

Nilgiri said:


> No need to be such an idiot all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea of what he did to Germany (more specifically what we call Germany today)? Do you know where the current German civil code even comes from?
> 
> @AUSTERLITZ you may want to educate this fool if you have a little time.



I can never be the moron that you have proven to be.

Napoleon was an aberration in the inglorious history of French military "prowess".

France is a military joke and can never be compared to true martial countries like Germany or Japan.

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## flamer84

UKBengali said:


> I can never be the moron that you have proven to be.
> 
> Napoleon was an aberration in the inglorious history of French military "prowess".
> 
> France is a military joke and can never be compared to true martial countries like Germany or Japan.


Are you for real?

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## KediKesenFare3



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## Nilgiri

UKBengali said:


> I can never be the moron that you have proven to be.



It's an honour coming from the likes of you. I would be terribly worried if you called me intelligent or smart.



UKBengali said:


> Napoleon was an aberration in the inglorious history of French military "prowess".



Want more examples? Or will they be other "aberrations"? Try read up on Yorktown for example.



UKBengali said:


> France is a military joke and can never be compared to true martial countries like Germany or Japan.



As certified by a BeeDee clown.


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## UKBengali

@Nilgiri :

Let us have more examples. Please google more.


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## Nilgiri

KediKesenFare said:


>



http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp


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## UKBengali

Nilgiri said:


> http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp




Looks like around half of the victories in the last 2500 years was purely during Napoleanic era. Some of the others were in alliance with countries that can actually fight.

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## Nilgiri

UKBengali said:


> @Nilgiri :
> 
> Let us have more examples. Please google more.



Whats the point? You have much stacked against you to have a reasonable conversation:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000925

http://www.unz.com/jthompson/intelligence-of-5-year-olds-in-uk/


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## UKBengali

Nilgiri said:


> Whats the point? You have much stacked against you to have a reasonable conversation:
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000925
> 
> http://www.unz.com/jthompson/intelligence-of-5-year-olds-in-uk/



Funny coming from the forum nutcase.


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## Nilgiri

UKBengali said:


> Funny coming from the forum nutcase.



An IQ BeeDee simian saying this?...ouch it hurts so much!

Anyways keep representing BeeDees in all variety and manner of threads....you lot do 99% of the job for me as to what your basket case truly is....if you can get past the 70% poverty that follows you like the Dhaka stench described here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/why-...l-suck-for-a-long-time-my-perspective.441599/

But yeah, obviously you are the expert on French military history! Take a bow BD troll!


----------



## UKBengali

Nilgiri said:


> An IQ BeeDee simian saying this?...ouch it hurts so much!
> 
> Anyways keep representing BeeDees in all variety and manner of threads....you lot do 99% of the job for me as to what your basket case truly is....if you can get past the 70% poverty that follows you like the Dhaka stench described here:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/why-...l-suck-for-a-long-time-my-perspective.441599/
> 
> But yeah, obviously you are the expert on French military history! Take a bow BD troll!



Says the clinically insane that comes from an artificial entity.


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## Nilgiri

flamer84 said:


> Are you for real?



They like to think so. But most of the world just ignores them or at best classifies them as a much poorer version of India and Indian community.

So try your best to excuse their ignorance (their upbringing, education and attitude sucks given their massive inferiority complex). I mean look at this particular specimen going into repeat/broken record mode right now.

If they persist and the spit and stench gets too much, a couple hard slaps to the back of their head works wonders I found (but they may start drooling and only repeating themselves like this retard here).


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## UKBengali

Stop quoting a silly kid that has no life experience. Just makes you look really desperate.


@Nilgiri


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## Vergennes

UKBengali said:


> Are you joking here?
> 
> Germany has crushed France in every war in the 20th century - 1 million UK troops saved France in WW1.
> 
> Germans are simply far superior to the French. Even as far back as Roman times, French were totally defeated by Rome but the German tribes never were.



France and its army was the backbone of the Allies forces during the WWI, and the victory over German was achieved under the command of the Marshal of France,Ferdinand Foch,supreme allied commander.

If France was incapable of winning any wars,it would have ceased to exist since a long time ago. Seeing how many powers tried to obliterate us through the centuries. @Nilgiri @AUSTERLITZ

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## UKBengali

Vergennes said:


> France and its army was the backbone of the Allies forces during the WWI, and the victory over German was achieved under the command of the Marshal of France,Ferdinand Foch,supreme allied commander.
> 
> If France was incapable of winning any wars,it would have ceased to exist since a long time ago. Seeing how many powers tried to obliterate us through the centuries. @Nilgiri @AUSTERLITZ




France would have gotten crushed if it faced Germany alone during WW1 - even the US joined in to help out in 1917 lol.

I know the truth hurts but France, apart from during Napolean-era, are not good at fighting. Countries like UK, Germany and Japan are far superior at warfare than France.


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## Vergennes

UKBengali said:


> France would have gotten crushed if it faced Germany alone during WW1 - even the US joined in to help out in 1917 lol.
> 
> I know the truth hurts but France, apart from during Napolean-era, are not good at fighting. Countries like UK, Germany and Japan are far superior at warfare than France.



Seems like you do not understand the concept of "world war" do you ?

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## British SAS

UKBengali said:


> France would have gotten crushed if it faced Germany alone during WW1 - even the US joined in to help out in 1917 lol.
> 
> I know the truth hurts but France, apart from during Napolean-era, are not good at fighting. Countries like UK, Germany and Japan are far superior at warfare than France.



Hey bud, You have to consider the overall capabilities, total power includes nuclear weapons, and what not. France has the most nukes in Europe, thus it is more than likely France would prevail. Though they have a terrible record. Oh and you don't face a single European country anymore in any conflict, it's NATO you're up against.


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## UKBengali

Vergennes said:


> Seems like you do not understand the concept of "world war" do you ?



Simply question:

France versus Germany in WW1 with no allies. Who would have won?

Germany of course.

Accept the truth and move on. France has talents but military prowess is not one of them.


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## British SAS

UKBengali said:


> Simply question:
> 
> France versus Germany in WW2 with no allies. Who would have won?
> 
> Germany of course.
> 
> Accept the truth and move on. France has talents but military prowess is not one of them.


 

At present, France. Dynamics have changed, and there has been a paradigm shift in the world. Serves no purpose talking about France vs Germany. Germany would cease to exist in a conflict with France today.


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## Beast

I don't why NATO is so scared of Russia? As if Russia really going to invade Romania or Czech? Russia economy suffer a massive drop and you see their kuznetsov carrier spew more thick smoke than 1920 steam engine train. Most Russian equipment are very old and morale of their soldiers are poor as salary drop too.
Czech and Romania just fell prey to Western Europe war mongering propaganda.


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## British SAS

Beast said:


> Why is U.K. below India and Pakistan? Royal Navy proven with SSBN, permanent UN seat holder. And an economy power with roughly same size as India.



Hi. Thanks for your comment. I'll likely open a thread about world powers and discussions can be had there. Seeing as this one is about Germany.


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## Zibago

Vergennes said:


> @Blue Marlin @flamer84 @Nilgiri
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soldiers of armored infantry battalion Panzergrenadierbataillon 122 of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces.(Johannes Simon/Getty Images)
> 
> Czech Republic and Romania are sending major chunks of their armies to the Bundeswehr.
> 
> 
> A Czech and Romanian brigade will be integrated into divisions of the German army. The agreement is to be signed at a meeting of nato defense ministers tomorrow. The _Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung_ (faz), which broke the story on February 2, wrote, “The Bundeswehr is developing into the leading nato army in Europe.”
> 
> The agreement is the most dramatic of a series of arrangements Germany is negotiating to deepen its cooperation with other countries. The _EU Observer_ summarized the faz’s report, noting, “The longer-term strategy would turn the Bundeswehr into the leading nato army in Europe, with small countries integrating their military forces into the German command structures.”
> 
> Two thirds of the Dutch army’s command structure began to integrate into the German army last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The faz wrote (_Trumpet_ translation throughout): “This policy means Germany strengthens its own military power and, secondly, it creates practical road marks for the goal of European armed forces.”
> 
> The revolutionary handover of sovereignty from the Netherlands is already being seen as a proof of concept that other nations can follow, providing “the closest and most varied example of how far the military cooperation between two nato states can go” (ibid). Last year, German defense minister Ursula von der Leyen set out her ambitions to create “a multinational Panzer division” by integrating soldiers from other nations into the German army.
> 
> _Die Welt_ explained, “This should create a unit with up to 20,000 active soldiers, which should be operational by 2021—which would be the nucleus of a European army” (March 17).
> 
> Now von der Leyen is taking further practical steps in that direction. The Czech 4th Rapid Deployment Brigade will be integrated into the 10th German Panzer Division and the Romanian 81st Mechanized Brigade will be assigned to Germany’s Rapid Force Division.
> 
> These are not mere token forces. The Czech Republic is integrating one of its two combat brigades into the German army (this does not include combat support forces, such as the 13th Artillery Regiment).
> 
> On February 13, Reuters reported that unnamed sources with the defense ministry say that Germany also plans to lay out plans to create a joint fleet of transport aircraft with France and to join a joint fleet of tanker aircraft with the Netherlands.
> 
> At first glance, the plans seem unimpressive. The Franco-German fleet would begin with 10 transport planes. The United States operates more than 5,000. However, Europe is so short of transport planes that even an additional 10 will make a difference. This move is also a proof of concept. If successful, it will serve as a platform that more and more units can be added to. With Britain on the way out, France and Germany are the European Union’s two largest militaries. If they can prove that they can share resources and work together, there’s great potential for cooperation.
> 
> Germany will also sign a declaration of intent to join the Multinational Multi-role Tanker Transport Fleet of aircraft led by the Netherlands. The group also includes Luxembourg; Belgium and Norway may also join. Germany said it could spend up to €1 billion on planes, which would be based in the Netherlands and in Germany.
> 
> Germany will also expand its cooperation with Norway, with plans to work together in buying submarines and missiles.
> 
> Germany has made no secret of the fact that it aims to build a European army through these deals with other nations. It is creating a network of military cooperation—with Germany at the center. In 2013 then-Defense Minister Thomas de Maizière concluded that efforts to create a European army in one sweep were simply not working. Instead, he aimed to create much deeper cooperation within individual nations, gradually building the nucleus of a European army out of bilateral cooperation.
> 
> “If Germany can prove that integration can work with the Netherlands and Poland—and they can save a lot of money doing so—other nations will want in. Once Berlin brings a few more countries on line, this project will gain critical mass,” we wrote at the time. “The result would be an EU army, or a very closely coordinated group of armies, centered on Germany.”
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump’s insistence that Europe must bear the burden, the cost and the responsibility of defending itself is further encouraging this effort. Von der Leyen said that German requests to do more were “fair.” They certainly encourage other nations to sign up to the initiatives that Germany began long before Mr. Trump launched his bid for the presidency.
> 
> The timing of Germany’s push is deliberate. From February 17 to 19, national defense leaders, politicians and academics will gather in Germany for the Munich Security Conference. Talk of EU military cooperation is included in the conference’s annual report, which has been published ahead of the event. The report includes an infographic illustrating how far the Dutch have gone in integrating with the Germany army. With so much uncertainty about President Trump’s plans for Europe’s defense, extra attention is being focused on the conference this year to see what America will do, and how Europe will react. European military integration is definitely on the agenda.
> 
> The rise of a Europe capable of fielding a powerful military force, independent from the United States, would be one of the biggest geopolitical events in the last century and would revolutionize the balance of power around the world.
> 
> Herbert W. Armstrong warned of this exact military union for decades. In May 1953, he wrote that “10 powerful European nations will _combine_ their forces.” In August 1978, he warned: “The Europeans are far more disturbed about their safety in relying on United States military power to protect them than Americans realize! …
> 
> “_Europeans want their own united military power!_ They know that a political union of Europe would produce a _third major world power,_ as strong as either the U.S. or the ussr_—possibly stronger!”_
> 
> He saw that this cooperation would not come easily. But Europe is being forced in this direction. For more on how this force is coming together, read our article “Is Europe Finally Ready for an Army?” ▪
> 
> https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/...erman-army-continues-to-swallow-its-neighbors


Germany is fully prepared for post EU Europe


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## vostok

Zibago said:


> Germany is fully prepared for post EU Europe


I would say that the Germans are feverishly preparing the EU break-up and trying to take control of as many european armies as possible.

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## Taygibay

Folkhindus said:


> At present, France. Dynamics have changed, and there has been a paradigm shift in the world. Serves no purpose talking about France vs Germany. Germany would cease to exist in a conflict with France today.



And you show how right you are about new paradigm and
other subtleties that your interlocutor is unlikely to grasp,
since we have taken Deutschland under our nuclear umbrella
decades ago, at the precise moment we'd be running over
Vaterland, we'd have to turn our missiles on our own Patrie?
Our British buds will applaud the fair play but to quote them :
_Such a bloody shame, really!_​
The only think doubtful in that reasoning is that such intricacy
won't be lost on those who construct and hold simpler models
even when unfounded in facts to avoid reality's constant shifts.

But let me give a hand in that educational process nonetheless.



UKBengali said:


> Says the clinically insane that comes from an artificial entity.



Huh? You just described all humans with darn few exceptions.


Off to more serious threads but good convo & day all, Tay.


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## YeBeWarned

Common Guys stop Comparing countries and their military capabilities .. Who surrender or who lost previous war does not matter here, what matter here where the country stands now and what are they capable of unleashing on anyone dare challenge them ..

@Vergennes @Taygibay@Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @flamer84 of course France is way Ahead of Pakistan in terms of Technology they hold, France has Experience , Quality of Weapons/Technology and better equipped and Trained Soldiers , No doubt about that ..
there is no reason to get the bait from a fanboy brothers 

Pakistan on the other hand has achieve some military advancements over the time, specially in WoT .. there is also no Doubt that Pakistan has done remarkably good in that Guerrilla fighting ..we are on the right path of Modernizing our Forces with CM and MIRV's , our soldiers are getting better trained , better equipped and just like Other countries the will to fight and die for country is already there, for the projection of Power we got Nukes just like France, UK etc ..

France , Germany ,and UK are very dangerous combination .. one should never messed up with,bring in the Italians and Scandinavians and only God can save you if they fighting in their homeland ..
For the leadership Role , i will say its Good that no European country wants to take it because that is how a Natural Alliance is screwed up, when the Power is distributed to all the greed will never take over Friends/Allies ..

Please Avoid Comparing and insulting other countries or their forces ..every soldier fight and die for his country , no soldier wants to surrender its the circumstance and poor leadership that makes him do it ..

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## Taygibay

^^^ Don't worry brother, at least for my part.

Pakistan is less than a human lifetime old and
in a different strategic paradigm military wise.
It has the armed forces it needs vs its means.

But as often on fora, one guy armed with truth
defying convictions can start a row and derail a thread.

At least, that particular guy isn't in the White House? 

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> France has currently the most potent and active military of the EU,it would be natural to take the lead of the European defence,but will probably never happen.


kind of, do remember were still in the eu (for now)



Vergennes said:


> They'll unleash their anger at us and Poland,as always.


bloody germans picking on the little guy.



Vergennes said:


> Germany has the capacity to become the leading European military if it really wanted. But it doesn't want.


correct, hence why i will cough up 50%of the amount needed to develop a syrum to change that, all we need is you guys to cough up you half and were good to go. 
we will spike their beer and sausages and if there's no side affects put in in their water system so everyone gets infected

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

An interesting thread. German army expanding peacefully by incorporating military units of other countries is a new development in the current history of Europe. The question we should be contemplating is which country will be the next in line to join it's military forces with Germany. The bottom line is that Germany has the financial and technological muscle to build a strong army. If in future Italy, France, Spain, Scandinavian and other countries join Germany, it will be a real game changer in world politics. For that lets keep watching...


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## Post Colonnial

Europe certainly needs a military and Germany is probably best positioned to kick-start it. Of course the world better watch out for world wars ! but without a strong Europe there is no resolution to the open and smoldering wars of the middle east.


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## waz

I believe zee Germans are cooking something up;













But we're ready for them.

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## Zulkarneyn

Penguin said:


> And that's a good thing! Given Brexit, maybe we could ask the Italian or Spanjards? Of, better yet, the Dutch?


How about Turkey? As the largest standing army in Europe next after Russia.


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## Penguin

Blue Marlin said:


> where did i say the eu is forcing them? there are doing it out of need not pressure. honestly its a good idea but then your reliant of the eu for your protection. countries like and france can hold their own but germany......?
> the main idea of this is to create an eu army to reduce dependency from the usa.


First of all, one should >never< underestimate Germans, their military technology or their ability to fight. Second, just because Germany does not have a nuclear deterrent, doesn't mean they could create one quickly if need be. Third, it is just a matter of political will and funding to increase German military might. Recall Bundeswehr not too long ago operated 2,125 Leopard 2s rather than 328 odd it will have shortly.

As of 9 February 2017, the _Bundeswehr_ has a strength of 177,956 active soldiers, making it the second largest in the European Union behind France in terms of personnel. In addition the Bundeswehr has approximately 31,700 reserve personnel (2015). France had 208,916 active and 27,785 reserve personnel in 2015.



Zulkarneyn said:


> How about Turkey? As the largest standing army in Europe next after Russia.


Shouldn't we learn how to say "Jawohl, mein Fuhrer" in Turkish then?


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## British SAS

Nobody is underestimating anyone.. But logic dictates germany's time has come to pass. They have the ability to manufacture high-end weaponry at will.. But during world wars it will all be over too soon for Germany. Besides Europe isn't going to war with one another anytime within this century. The coming wars are with Russia, maybe China coupled with Muslim countries etc vs Europe, America, Israel etc. Well that's my prediction anyway. As always folks- feel free to correct me. 

Ps. Not advocating for war. But it's a fact of life. Unfortunately.


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## Śakra

mike2000 is back said:


> Can he give us one major military sector where Pakistan or any South Asian/Muslim country for that matter is ahead of France?



Come back to us when your Eurosoldiers can dance like ours

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## pakdefender

Germany is by no means pacifist , a leopard doesn't change his spots
The Prussians see themselves as leaders of Europe and they are systematically working towards that goal.


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## TMA

Beast said:


> I don't why NATO is so scared of Russia? As if Russia really going to invade Romania or Czech? Russia economy suffer a massive drop and you see their kuznetsov carrier spew more thick smoke than 1920 steam engine train. Most Russian equipment are very old and morale of their soldiers are poor as salary drop too.
> Czech and Romania just fell prey to Western Europe war mongering propaganda.


NATO is not scared of Russia. They just know that Russia is no Libya or Iraq.
What they want is to spread fear of the "big bad Russian bear" in order for propanda purposes.


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## Saho

There's something about Germans....

Germany in pre-WWI: Emerging power in Europe.

Aftermath of WWI: Got destroyed by multiple powers and suffered one of the largest casualties.

Within 10 years, they quickly rose to power and emerged as a world power then got destroyed, invaded by multiple powers and ended up disintegrated into two parts.

The moment West and East Germany re-united, they re-emerged as a economical power of Europe.

All within short period of time after they got destroyed and yet, are always ahead of the West despite being invaded and disintegrated multiple times unlike the "untouched" western powers.

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## Zulkarneyn

Penguin said:


> Shouldn't we learn how to say "Jawohl, mein Fuhrer" in Turkish then?


Emredersiniz kumandanim!


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## Flynn Swagmire

Nilgiri said:


> An IQ BeeDee simian saying this?...ouch it hurts so much!
> 
> Anyways keep representing BeeDees in all variety and manner of threads....you lot do 99% of the job for me as to what your basket case truly is....if you can get past the 70% poverty that follows you like the Dhaka stench described here:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/why-...l-suck-for-a-long-time-my-perspective.441599/
> 
> But yeah, obviously you are the expert on French military history! Take a bow BD troll!


Dear Mr Rapeistani vermin, he @UKBengali didnt dragged India anywhere in his replies. So, dont drag BD in your replies too...


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## UKBengali

OrdinaryGenius said:


> Dear Mr Rapeistani vermin, he @UKBengali didnt dragged India anywhere in his replies. So, dont drag BD in your replies too...




Give the guy a break, he is the forum nutter.

@Nilgiri


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## Flynn Swagmire

UKBengali said:


> Give the guy a break, he is the forum nutter.
> 
> @Nilgiri


I just reacted...


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## pakdefender

Methinks this time they will catch the English fox by its tail , instead of reaching out towards its mouth , lets see


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## omega supremme

Vergennes said:


> They'll unleash their anger at us and Poland,as always.





After looking at this news, I have a gut feeling that Third world war maybe will also be started from Europe.


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## Nefarious

I wouldn't underestimate the Germans, they're chilled out since WW minding their own business but if push came to shove...


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## Penguin

Zulkarneyn said:


> Emredersiniz kumandanim!


Değil hayatımda 



Saho said:


> There's something about Germans....
> 
> Germany in pre-WWI: Emerging power in Europe.
> 
> Aftermath of WWI: Got destroyed by multiple powers and suffered one of the largest casualties.
> 
> Within 10 years, they quickly rose to power and emerged as a world power then got destroyed, invaded by multiple powers and ended up disintegrated into two parts.
> 
> The moment West and East Germany re-united, they re-emerged as a economical power of Europe.
> 
> All within short period of time after they got destroyed and yet, are always ahead of the West despite being invaded and disintegrated multiple times unlike the "untouched" western powers.


What do you mean 're-emerged'? West Germany already was an economical power in Europe. In 1952 West Germany became part of the European Coal and Steel Community, joining with Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and this would later evolve into the European Union. In 1973, West Germany—home to roughly 1.26% of the world's population—featured the world's _fourth _largest GDP of 944 billion (5.9% of the world total). In 1976 West Germany became one of the founding nations of the Group of Six (G6) with France, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States, which came to be known as the Group of Seven, or G7, in 1976 with the addition of Canada. In 1987, the FRG held a 7.4% share of total world production.

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## mike2000 is back

pakdefender said:


> Methinks this time they will catch the English fox by its tail , instead of reaching out towards its mouth , lets see


We have always out played our Anglo Saxon German brothers. It's like a tragedy for them. .
We have always been not just a military power but even more so a very strategic/smart(some call it cunning) power. So we will still have the last laugh. 



Penguin said:


> Değil hayatımda
> 
> 
> What do you mean 're-emerged'? West Germany already was an economical power in Europe. In 1952 West Germany became part of the European Coal and Steel Community, joining with Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and this would later evolve into the European Union. In 1973, West Germany—home to roughly 1.26% of the world's population—featured the world's _fourth _largest GDP of 944 billion (5.9% of the world total). In 1976 West Germany became one of the founding nations of the Group of Six (G6) with France, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States, which came to be known as the Group of Seven, or G7, in 1976 with the addition of Canada. In 1987, the FRG held a 7.4% share of total world production.


Why about Communist revolutionary anti free world East Germany ? They were not also an economic powerhouse like the evil Anglo Saxon western aligned West Germany ?


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## Śakra

mike2000 is back said:


> We have always out played our Anglo Saxon German brothers. It's like a tragedy for them. .
> We have always been not just a military power but even more so a very strategic/smart(some call it cunning) power. So we will still have the last laugh.
> 
> 
> Why about Communist revolutionary anti free world Eat Germany ? They were not also an economic powerhouse like the evil Anglo Saxon western aligned West Germany ?



I do believe the Norman on the throne has the last laugh.


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## Penguin

mike2000 is back said:


> Why about Communist revolutionary anti free world East Germany ? They were not also an economic powerhouse like the evil Anglo Saxon western aligned West Germany ?


It became the most successful economy in the Eastern Bloc. In 1976, the average annual growth of the GDP was approximately five percent. This made East German economy the richest in all of the Soviet Bloc until 1990 after the Communist collapse in the country. The estimated 1984 per capita income was $9,800 ($22,600 in 2015 dollars). The East German economy was one of the largest and one of the most stable economies in the "Second World" until Communism in Eastern Europe started to collapse in 1989. Nonetheless, it did not match the economic growth of West Germany.

For comparison, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econo...ublic#Comparison_with_the_West_German_economy

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## -SINAN-

Zulkarneyn said:


> How about Turkey? As the largest standing army in Europe next after Russia.


We should stay at equal distance to both EU and Russia. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was really enjoying the thread till it got destroyed by the non-Europeans. 

IMO, European members wish for Germany to militarize and take the lead is nothing but a pipe dream. Why Germans would spend their funds on military while they can spend on welfare ? Neither Germany nor Europe are under imminent danger.


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## Penguin

Sinan said:


> We should stay at equal distance to both EU and Russia.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I was really enjoying the thread till it got destroyed by the non-Europeans.
> 
> IMO, European members wish for Germany to militarize and take the lead is nothing but a pipe dream. Why Germans would spend their funds on military while they can spend on welfare ? Neither Germany nor Europe are under imminent danger.


Many in Germany and the rest of Europe would disagree on that last statement.

As far as German defence spending, it is already being increased... so apparently they themselves perceive a need for that. How much and at what speed, the Germans keep at their discretion (they would let pressure from Trump to determine that). And Germany is not alone in that respect. Sixteen alliance members increased their defense spending in real terms in 2015. Twelve of these countries were forecast to have increased their defense spending as a percentage of GDP, NATO said in a January report.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-defense-gabriel-idUSKBN1611LD
http://www.dw.com/en/merkel-germany-to-heavily-increase-bundeswehr-budget/a-36054268
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/769178/Germany-Nato-spending-Angela-Merkel-Mike-Pence-Vice-President-Donald-Trump-Russia
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ending-hike-reflects-regional-trend/82204164/

Related
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38675522
http://www.policyreview.eu/germanys...ase-analytically-wrong-but-politically-right/

German defence budget over time
https://www.statista.com/statistics/575153/military-spending-germany/

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## Zulkarneyn

Sinan said:


> We should stay at equal distance to both EU and Russia.


I actually agree with this. My comment was a little bit sarcastic. 
Granted we are in NATO, but they even pulled out their Patriots

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