# Pakistan Succesful Test Fired Hatf-VIII Ra'ad ALCM



## farhan_9909

Reported by AAJ and SAMAA news

=======================

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.

The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea.

“Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.

Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.

He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.

He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.

The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.

Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## Tipu7

as expected

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## bhangi bava

ye to hona he tha


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## bloo

Is there a video or something or are they just saying it for the sake of saying it?

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## Gryphon

*Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad*

Dawn.com | 2 February 2015






_— Photo courtesy: ISPR_

*RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.*

The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve Strategic Standoff Capability on land and at sea.

“Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.

Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.

He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.

He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.

The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.

Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## Echo_419

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha *



Apples & Oranges


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## Pakistani shaheens

I heard somewhere that we are working on ICBM of range more than 7000km. Does anyone have info regarding it?

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## Imran Khan

bhangi bava said:


> ye to hona he tha


pakistan was just trolling to you guys

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## Pakistani shaheens

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha *


 Shiekh saab thats cruise missile and they are supposed to be of this range.

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## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad*






Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.

*The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve 'strategic standoff capability' on land and at sea.*

“Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with stealth capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.

Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s full spectrum credible minimum deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.

He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.

He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.

The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.

Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## SipahSalar

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile


Narrow minded thinking.

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## Saifullah Sani

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha *



*India on Saturday succeeded for the first time in using a mobile launcher to test-fire a long-range missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead deep inside rival China*
*
New Delhi tests long-range missile from mobile launcher | Missile ThreatMissile Threat*

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## Imran Khan

SipahSalar said:


> Narrow minded thinking.


kis ki pakistani military establishment ki ?

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## Menace2Society

Time for ICBM test.

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## farhan_9909

@Windjammer

Sir ji photo aur video kab tak post karenge?

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Abhi bhe Mirage se he kia ho ga test, Khabeeson Thunder se bhe ker lo ? *

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## 13 komaun

I hope it would again be test fired when India will launch manned space mission.

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## Imran Khan

Menace2Society said:


> Time for ICBM test.


ho ga to test kareen gy na bhai

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## Rafael

SrNair said:


> Is this Hatf is also called as Nasr ?
> 
> And like the article said Cruise missile is extremely complex but luckily some US Tomohawks aimed for OBL was landed as flowers in extrmely advanced nation.But that extremity was not enough that is why deeper than ocean was needed for reverse engineering it.
> 
> 
> Any way we are also expected this .
> Congratulations for RaaD



Atleast we didnt beg russians to make it for us and painted it as Brahmos!

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## SrNair

Pakistani shaheens said:


> I heard somewhere that we are working on ICBM of range more than 7000km. Does anyone have info regarding it?



Timur .That was its name.Any update on that ?

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> in fact i am happy not this time 60km range answer . abut mods you can ask them anytime



You do know that India is our next-door neighbor that has on our accurate ranges.

India' new Agni missiles is basically toward to China, US, Europe, and even Russia. Our goals are differences. 

Stop being idiot or filthy dumb yourself.

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## Imran Khan

VelocuR said:


> You do know that India is our next-door neighbor that has on our accurate ranges.
> 
> India' new Agni missiles is basically toward to China, US, Europe, and even Russia. Our goals are differences.
> 
> Stop being idiot or filthy dumb yourself.


 just one question agni-5 can;t be used against pakistan?

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## Pakistani shaheens

SrNair said:


> Timur .That was its name.Any update on that ?


Sorry! I honestly dont know much about military stuffs, hope some expert on this field will update us on this.

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## Menace2Society

VelocuR said:


> You do know that India is our next-door neighbor that has on our accurate ranges.
> 
> India' new Agni missiles is basically toward to China, US, Europe, and even Russia. Our goals are differences.
> 
> Stop being idiot or filthy dumb yourself.



So Israel can bomb the crap out of us and India can't? How does this make it ok. There are many more threats than India.

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## bloo

How often does Pakistan test missiles? 
It is definitely not as frequent as the Indian SFC.

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## SrNair

Rafael said:


> Atleast we didnt beg russians to make it for us and painted it as Brahmos!



Brahmos is just one item.Brahmos didnt have any VLS tech or Block 3 tech when we got that .Now we developed that.
Brahmos 2 is also coming.And its design is way radical.
While Agni series is our own indigenous.

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> just one question agni-5 can;t be used against pakistan?



Just one simple question - You are very uneducated and low-level filthy, can you please educate yourself to high standard before you can analysis freely on Agni-5 instead ruining the thread?

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## Ind4Ever

Answer to Indians Agni 5 was very late ...  

We must try both this weapon against each other . You fire Raad we will fire A5 .

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## SipahSalar

Illiterates who think this is a competition should not be allowed on PDF.
Pakistani ballistic missiles already cover all of india except some south easter and north eastern corner. There is no need to need to develop longer range missiles. Instead we need to improve the current arsenal in accuracy and reliability. 

Imagine if someone stupid was in-charge who thought, oh India tested a 2000km range missile? lets test a 2500km range missile. What a wastage of resources. Instead money should be spent on MIRVs and improving current arsenal. I am glad Strategic Planning Division did not go apeshit like some people here. Smart decision by them.

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## Guynextdoor2

Pakistan’s elusive quest for parity

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## SipahSalar

Imran Khan said:


> kis ki pakistani military establishment ki ?


Yours. We have already tested Shaheens several times. We have tested ALCM only twice. But i guess it is too much to comprehend.

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## VelocuR

Just ignore @Imran Khan drama.

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## syedali73

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha


All major Indian cities are already within the range of Pakistani ballistic missiles. Now Pakistan test fires _patakha_ or _puljhari_, does not make any difference.

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## Guynextdoor2

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan was just trolling to you guys



The spirit of what you're saying is right actually. It's not the range of the missile or the success/failure- it is the timing that gives people a feeling that this is some competitive 'mine is bigger than yours type game'. Else If you had your own calendar and working with it neutral our calendar, people will be more open to the idea that you have your priorities and that's all you're concerned with.


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## Menace2Society

Need ICBM test otherwise this Eid pataka is not scaring anyone.


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## SipahSalar

SrNair said:


> Is this Hatf is also called as Nasr ?
> 
> And like the article said Cruise missile is extremely complex but luckily some US Tomohawks aimed for OBL was landed as flowers in extrmely advanced nation.But that extremity was not enough that is why deeper than ocean was needed for reverse engineering it.
> 
> 
> Any way we are also expected this .
> Congratulations for RaaD


No, HATF 9 is NASR.

No Chinese help was needed. Cruise missiles are not that complicated. China does not have any Tomahawk-like cruise missile. Cruise missiles are called poor man's airforce for a reason, they are easy to build. Still nevermind me.


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## definitelynotIndian

Menace2Society said:


> Need ICBM test otherwise this Eid pataka is not scaring anyone.


who do you want to scare? India is already in your range. Why enrage the west?

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## SipahSalar

Menace2Society said:


> Need ICBM test otherwise this Eid pataka is not scaring anyone.


Who do you need ICBM for? huh? Please enlighten us.


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## Hyperion

LMFAO.... every time India tests something remarkable, we take our toys out and impress our very own _qaum_, because? We just HAVE to! 

Some standard BS:


> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.



Some TC:


> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.



Some confidence boosting remarks (who are we kidding here?):


> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.



Let's not forget some lame duck politicians stamp of approval:


> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.

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## Menace2Society

SipahSalar said:


> Who do you need ICBM for? huh? Please enlighten us.



Leverage.


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## Imran Khan

very very bad timing for test


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## Badbadman

Menace2Society said:


> Leverage.


Try Sanctions.

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## Irfioo7

Well India test some new tech and in response we test already produced missile,come on NDC we know we have better cruise missiles than them


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## Imran Khan

*here is video of today's great achievement*

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## SipahSalar

Menace2Society said:


> Leverage.


Against who? It will be viewed as direct hostility. We dont need enemies that dont exist.


Hyperion said:


> LMFAO.... every time India tests something remarkable, we take our toys out and impress our very own _qaum_, because? We just HAVE to!


These tests are already planned and available on short notice. It is true that it is already decided that the test will take place in response to an indian test, as a reminder. I see nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone.


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## Kompromat

Routine testing.

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## VelocuR

New Testing

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## Pakistani shaheens

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan was just trolling to you guys


Well cruise missiles are actually of small range, they are not supposed to hit target of long distance, if they were they would be called ICBM instead.

{Cruise missile of different countries}
USA------------Tomahawk-----1300km range
Germany---- Taurus -----------500km range
Russia--------As17 krypton----150km range
China---------YJ-91--------------110km range
India-----------Brahmos----------300-500km

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## SipahSalar

Imran Khan said:


> *here is video of today's great achievement*


Mirage AGAIN? Come on, when will they use JF-17...

The most important part is when it drops to low altitude mid-flight in the video.


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## Winchester

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha *


 
Just 15 likes from the saffron brigade 
You can do better 
shabash thori aur galiyan du apne mulk ku

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## hunter_hunted

VelocuR said:


> @Horus, what's up with his mentality issue? Take a look





Ind4Ever said:


> Answer to Indians Agni 5 was very late ...
> 
> We must try both this weapon against each other . You fire Raad we will fire A5 .



I think agni 5 will just cross Pakistan because of range. It has big range and Ra'ad is cruise missile with just 350KM and will smack right in india. So Ra'ad won

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## shaheenmissile

Looking at the fact that India currently does not have a deployed operational ALCM. This is a good answer for Agni launch.

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## Kompromat

SrNair said:


> Is this Hatf is also called as Nasr ?
> 
> And like the article said Cruise missile is extremely complex but luckily some US Tomohawks aimed for OBL was landed as flowers in extrmely advanced nation.But that extremity was not enough that is why deeper than ocean was needed for reverse engineering it.
> 
> 
> Any way we are also expected this .
> Congratulations for RaaD



Hatf is the standard title for all Pakistan missiles
Nasr, Raad etc are their INDIVIDUAL titles. Think of Hatf as a surname.

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## sandesh kumar

Winchester said:


> Just 15 likes from the saffron brigade
> You can do better
> shabash thori aur galiyan du apne mulk ku


and how saffron brigade is related to this topic???

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## Menace2Society

Launch 300 of these cruise missiles towards India loaded with Burnol.

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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> Reported by AAJ and SAMAA news
> 
> =======================
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea.
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


Good tested again but now need something like YJ-12 with over mach 4 speed

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## Guynextdoor2

SrNair said:


> Is this Hatf is also called as Nasr ?
> 
> And like the article said Cruise missile is extremely complex but luckily some US Tomohawks aimed for OBL was landed as flowers in extrmely advanced nation.But that extremity was not enough that is why deeper than ocean was needed for reverse engineering it.
> 
> 
> Any way we are also expected this .
> Congratulations for RaaD



I think there is some Chinese connection to this. Reverse engineering a cruise isn't some joke.

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## Norwegian

350 km range? LOL


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## Ind4Ever

hunter_hunted said:


> I think agni 5 will just cross Pakistan because of range. It has big range and Ra'ad is cruise missile with just 350KM and will smack right in india. So Ra'ad won


 Not. It will take trajectory changes to align itself to target pakistan.  More over what is so special with A5 War head is that it can course correct itself .So destroying it with air defense is near impossible . So A5 Won . 
We can even fire it Andaman island even with your logic 

A5 won over RaaD


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## I.R.A

Imran Khan said:


> khisyani bili khamba noochy



Uncle q logo ko tang kar rahy ho.................. Pakistan recent missiles in my view have been directed at targeting an invading army. This cruise missile in my guess is meant for sea more than land considering our comparatively weak naval power.

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## shaheenmissile

Ind4Ever said:


> Not. It will take trajectory changes to align itself to target pakistan. More over what is so special with A5 War head is that it can course correct itself .So destroying it with air defense is near impossible . So A5 Won .
> We can even fire it Andaman island even with your logic
> 
> A5 won over RaaD


Shaheen 1A and Shaheen 2 both have course correction since 2008.


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## Pakistani shaheens

bloo said:


> Raad for Agni-5.
> Babur would have been better or even a shaheen.


There is no need to compare ballistic missile with cruise missile, they both are of different dimensions

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## Guynextdoor2

Imran Khan said:


> very very bad timing for test



Much better timing than firing the Nasr missile immediately after we launched our *MARS PROBE *

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Hatf is the standard title for all Pakistan missiles
> Nasr, Raad etc are their INDIVIDUAL titles. Think of Hatf as a surname.


We now need something like YJ-12 with over Mach 4 speed

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## shaheenmissile

Agni-5 is a 50 ton fatty which can never be a true road mobile missile.
Look around,all road mobile missiles in the world are less than 30 tons. Same as Pakistan's shaheen 2

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## VelocuR

bloo said:


> Raad for Agni-5.
> Babur would have been better or even a shaheen.



Too slow and ineffective, you can see the fire engines on the bottom which is similar to Russia missiles, yep.

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## hunter_hunted

Ind4Ever said:


> Not. It will take trajectory changes to align itself to target pakistan. More over what is so special with A5 War head is that it can course correct itself .So destroying it with air defense is near impossible . So A5 Won .
> We can even fire it Andaman island even with your logic
> 
> A5 won over RaaD



Well to see if agni can really do that we have to wait for actual war.... Because what you call full proof might not be the case with the enemy coz enemy will have its own means to destroy the full-proof missile ..... But for Ra'ad to destroy you have to find it first. But agni will be there in sky like a "knight with a shinning armour" for enemy to see

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## SrNair

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL



Dude .You should congratulate your nation .
They did very well that within their capability.

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## Kompromat

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL



Do you even know what you are talking about?

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## Norwegian

Horus said:


> Do you even know what you are talking about?


I meant even Babur missile is better than this.


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## me_itsme

Why is it called air launched? Is it launched from an aircraft?


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## pursuit of happiness

Saifullah Sani said:


> *Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> *The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve 'strategic standoff capability' on land and at sea.*
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with stealth capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s full spectrum credible minimum deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


---
Raad is pak missile ?


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## Kompromat

Norwegian said:


> I meant even Babur missile is better than this.



Because Babur is a DIFFERENT system, its design and application is different so is the doctrine its designed for. Babur's main objective is to give PA the ability to surgically destroy 'tier 1' C4ISR infrastructure of the enemy as well as to attack other high value targets while staying off the battlefield. Babur is also designed for being launched from Augosta-90B submarines to deliver a nuclear warhead giving Pakistan a second strike capability and a partial nuclear triad. (Triad is ability to nuke the target from Land, Air or Sea)

Ra'ad has a range of 350km and its designed to again destroy high value infrastructure of the enemy while staying off from the heat of battle. It can also deliver a tactical nuclear warhead without being seen on enemy radar. Ra'ad can fly on a tree top level. The Norwegian Naval Strike Missile has a maximum range of 290kms. That is not because Raad and NSM can't have extended range but because that is the range planners need to do the job they ought to.

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## pursuit of happiness

SipahSalar said:


> Illiterates who think this is a competition should not be allowed on PDF.
> Pakistani ballistic missiles already cover all of india except some south easter and north eastern corner. There is no need to need to develop longer range missiles. Instead we need to improve the current arsenal in accuracy and reliability.
> 
> Imagine if someone stupid was in-charge who thought, oh India tested a 2000km range missile? lets test a 2500km range missile. What a wastage of resources. Instead money should be spent on MIRVs and improving current arsenal. I am glad Strategic Planning Division did not go apeshit like some people here. Smart decision by them.


--
the diffrence is india is upgrading system ... 
pak is reacting with test ...
it was happned with nasr now raad.. 
--
i agree with you pak should upgrade missle system than testing back to back india which imran khan pointed out

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## Winchester

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL





Norwegian said:


> I meant even Babur missile is better than this.


You OK in the head ??? 
RAAD is an Air Launched Cruise Missile 
Babur is not.... 
We are talking about developing a missile for targeting a country right on our border whatever its range is its enough to get their panties wet

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## Norwegian

Winchester said:


> We are talking about developing a missile for targeting a country right on our border whatever its range is its enough to get their panties wet


Like if that neighbor has nothing in its box of surprises for us?

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## Guynextdoor2

SrNair said:


> Dude .You should congratulate your nation .
> They did very well that within their capability.



That's very below the belt man. They are seeking parity remember


----------



## Kompromat

me_itsme said:


> Why is it called air launched? Is it launched from an aircraft?



Yes.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152809486487663

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## nomi007



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## IND151

Pakistani shaheens said:


> Shiekh saab thats cruise missile and they are supposed to be of this range.



US built Snark cruise missile which had range of 10,200 KM.

You should say as Raad and Agni 5 are for different purposes, their range not same.

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## nomi007

again mirage III
i was expecting jf-17 thunder


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## pursuit of happiness

Horus said:


> Because Babur is a DIFFERENT system, its design and application is different so is the doctrine its designed for. Babur's main objective is to give PA the ability to surgically destroy 'tier 1' C4ISR infrastructure of the enemy as well as to attack other high value targets while staying off the battlefield. Babur is also designed for being launched from Augosta-90B submarines to deliver a nuclear warhead giving Pakistan a second strike capability and a partial nuclear triad. (Triad is ability to nuke the target from Land, Air or Sea)
> 
> Ra'ad has a range of 350km and its designed to again destroy high value infrastructure of the enemy while staying off from the heat of battle. It can also deliver a tactical nuclear warhead without being seen on enemy radar. Ra'ad can fly on a tree top level. The Norwegian Naval Strike Missile has a maximum range of 290kms. That is not because Raad and NSM can't have extended range but that is the range planners need to do the job they ought to.


--
1. Is babaur integrated with augusta? 
2. how many auguta you ahve and how many babur they carry ? if operational ?
3. when pak got 2nd strick capability and how ? pak have triad ? even particaly?
4. Raad .. desgin by pak ? 
5. what your say on raad vs indian rader system let leave phalcon aside ... and satellert too ?
--
eveytime india test missile pak follow till now it was with nasr
many time india and pak does nor mal testing fine .. but pak follow india eveytime which is not operational planing but reaction which one can point out
india is upgrading system ? what pak is doing ?

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## Winchester

Norwegian said:


> Like if that neighbor has nothing in its box of surprises for us?


These weapon systems provide Pakistan with *minimum credible deterrence *
No one is talking that in case of an escalation we wont get hurt but it will be punch for punch

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## me_itsme

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152809486487663



Nice, then I am guessing it is a breakthrough in CM technology for Pakistan?


----------



## Kompromat

me_itsme said:


> Nice, then I am guessing it is a breakthrough in CM technology for Pakistan?



That will be a just statement


----------



## xyxmt

Are they still expecting an unsuccessful test after testing and retesting it for the nth time


----------



## I.R.A

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152809486487663



Can it be used to target enemy naval ships etc.?


----------



## Kompromat

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> 1. Is babaur integrated with augusta?



Yes.



> 2. how many auguta you ahve and how many babur they carry ? if operational ?



5X submarines including AIP, each can carry 16X babur if needed in torpedo tubes. However such a load out is unlikely to be allocated to a sub crew.



> 3. when pak got 2nd strick capability and how ? pak have triad ? even particaly?



We have partial triad because we don't have an SSBN. We are working towards that end, slowly but steadily. 



> 4. Raad .. desgin by pak ?



Yes by AERO formerly known as Air Weapons Complex.



> 5. what your say on raad vs indian rader system let leave phalcon aside ... and satellert too ?
> --



While designing this system Indian radar capabilities are kept in mind though i can't give you a specific answer to this question.



> eveytime india test missile pak follow till now it was with nasr
> many time india and pak does nor mal testing fine .. but pak follow india eveytime which is not operational planing but reaction which one can point out
> india is upgrading system ? what pak is doing ?



India and Pakistan test missiles around the same time not because of tit for tat posture but because they get money allocated to them around the same time and the climate is suitable for testing around the same time due to geographic proximity.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 5X submarines including AIP, each can carry 16X babur if needed in torpedo tubes. However such a load out is unlikely to be allocated to a sub crew.
> 
> 
> 
> We have partial triad because we don't have an SSBN. We are working towards that end, slowly but steadily.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes by AERO formerly known as Air Weapons Complex.
> 
> 
> 
> While designing this system Indian radar capabilities are kept in mind though i can't give you a specific answer to this question.
> 
> 
> 
> India and Pakistan test missiles around the same time not because of tit for tat posture but because they get money allocated to them around the same time and the climate is suitable for testing around the same time due to geographic proximity.


We should get YJ-12 too


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## Irfan Hanif

Whatever is the range, It is developed by Pakistan it self so more then enough progress in current scenario.. Haters gona hate but these little steps are necessary for a long journey..


----------



## Kompromat

Imran Rashid said:


> Can it be used to target enemy naval ships etc.?



Yes, it can hit both land and sea targets.

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## Dalit

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL



It's an air-launched cruise missile. You do know what that is? The range of this particular missile is more than sufficient. Compare the range with other ALCM. You'll be surprised. Air-launched cruise missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## kaku1

farhan_9909 said:


> Reported by AAJ and SAMAA news
> 
> =======================
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea.
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



Ye to hona he tha.


----------



## pursuit of happiness

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 5X submarines including AIP, each can carry 16X babur if needed in torpedo tubes. However such a load out is unlikely to be allocated to a sub crew.
> 
> 
> 
> We have partial triad because we don't have an SSBN. We are working towards that end, slowly but steadily.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes by AERO formerly known as Air Weapons Complex.
> 
> 
> 
> While designing this system Indian radar capabilities are kept in mind though i can't give you a specific answer to this question.
> 
> 
> 
> India and Pakistan test missiles around the same time not because of tit for tat posture but because they get money allocated to them around the same time and the climate is suitable for testing around the same time due to geographic proximity.


--
thanks for info..
i would like to 
1. Raad desgin by pak.. many peceived its usa missle droped unexplded and pak got it.. 
any proof that raad degin by pak.. if so why its name is so diffrent thena babaur gharuiand other missile ?

2. testing.. 
see the indian test and pak test time .. it cant be so much coincedence ..
india test first so cant blame them.. it thre schdue..
pak always testing in 2-3 days of indina test.. it cant be more reactive than schedule test


----------



## kurup

shaheenmissile said:


> Agni-5 is a 50 ton fatty which can never be a true road mobile missile.
> Look around,all road mobile missiles in the world are less than 30 tons. Same as Pakistan's shaheen 2



Wrong .

Russian Topol ICBM weighs 45 tons and Topol-M weighs 47 tons ...... Both are perfectly road mobile .

Comparison with Shaheen 2 is moot as it has half the range of A5 .

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## kaku1

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 5X submarines including AIP, each can carry 16X babur if needed in torpedo tubes. However such a load out is unlikely to be allocated to a sub crew.
> 
> 
> 
> We have partial triad because we don't have an SSBN. We are working towards that end, slowly but steadily.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes by AERO formerly known as Air Weapons Complex.
> 
> 
> 
> While designing this system Indian radar capabilities are kept in mind though i can't give you a specific answer to this question.



Before loading that thing to sub,, it require underwater tests.
[/QUOTE]


> India and Pakistan test missiles around the same time not because of tit for tat posture but because they get money allocated to them around the same time and the climate is suitable for testing around the same time due to geographic proximity.


lolwa


----------



## shaheenmissile

xyxmt said:


> Are they still expecting an unsuccessful test after testing and retesting it for the nth time


This was the first time we see the shadow of Raad on ground. Previous tests were at altitude.


----------



## Kompromat



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## shaheenmissile

kurup said:


> *Wrong .*
> 
> Russian Topol ICBM weighs 45 tons and Topol-M weighs 47 tons ...... Both are perfectly road mobile .
> 
> Comparison with Shaheen 2 is moot as it has half the range of A5 .


Yes this time i was wrong


----------



## datalibdaz

Many of Idoits here dont know even the abc's of these CM's and what purpose they are for and how complicated these technologies are....Just look at how Raad dive's in Terrain hugging mode, regain's stability... heck even see the shadow on the ground... Travelling at 0.7-0.8 Mach it will just creep up behind the enemy who will not know what hit em... Loaded on a ''Night Strike Mirage'' at night...Nightmares for everyone...Kudos to the Engineers

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## Saifullah Sani

*two different descriptions
1- The Ra'ad is an air-launched cruise missile (ALCM)* developed by Pakistan and operational with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).


Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152809486487663


*2- *The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve Strategic Standoff Capability on *land and at sea*.


TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad
> 
> Dawn.com | 2 February 2015
> 
> 
> — Photo courtesy: ISPR
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve Strategic Standoff Capability on land and at sea.
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


question: is *Ra'ad* Capable on Air, land and at sea ?


----------



## kurup

VelocuR said:


> Too slow and ineffective, you can see the fire engines on the bottom which is similar to Russia missiles, yep.



Slow and ineffective ....... 

Not just Russian missiles , fire comes out of bottom of almost all missiles launched vertically .

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## I.R.A

Horus said:


> Yes, it can hit both land and sea targets.



Can you please give some detailed opinion / views on how it is effective in current scenario and why its test was deemed necessary I mean to counter what threat exactly or is it just to show of new tech, power etc.?


Considering, when on other hand our counter parts are going big why we are not going big?


And when we view it in context of targeting enemy naval targets is it sufficient to cover our shortcomings in our naval force?


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## Kompromat

This missile is like cobra, you wont know until it bites you and once it does, you are dead.

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## kaku1

shaheenmissile said:


> Agni-5 is a 50 ton fatty which can never be a true road mobile missile.
> Look around,all road mobile missiles in the world are less than 30 tons. Same as Pakistan's shaheen 2


Bro, its a trial version, not a operational version.

Even the trial version of Agni-3 was 45t, but then operational version reduced to 22 tonne. Wait and watch.


----------



## Screambowl

Pakistani shaheens said:


> I heard somewhere that we are working on ICBM of range more than 7000km. Does anyone have info regarding it?


If Pakistan is working on 7000km missile, then I should say, It's useless and of no use. If Pakistan really wants to demonstrate technology, build satellite launch vehicles. Then Pak would be more beneficiary



Saifullah Sani said:


> *India on Saturday succeeded for the first time in using a mobile launcher to test-fire a long-range missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead deep inside rival China
> 
> New Delhi tests long-range missile from mobile launcher | Missile ThreatMissile Threat*


Not mobile launcher yaar, it's a a cold canistered mobile launcher build in home.

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## Paksanity

Why would Pakistan need anything with larger range than Shaheen-II? Our focus has been the threat from India and we have got it covered now. Longer range weapons will start to bring other nations within their range and a diplomatic unease will develop. Why make someone feel threatened when we don't intend to?

Our focus should be and has been on improving the accuracy and survivability of these missiles. Pakistani missiles are technologically advanced and this fact is acknowledged in serious circles. Raa'd comes in the same light, a technologically advanced weapon which can penetrate sophisticated defenses and get the job done.

Developing a cruise missile is no small job and making one which can be Air Launched is even more complicated. Very very few nations have achieved it on their own including India. Please keep in mind that missile technology is absolutely restricted and totally denied to Pakistan. China was nowhere in cruise missile scene at the time we were working on it. We must appreciate scientists and engineers at AWC who made it possible.

Comparing cruise missile to a ballistic missile is foolish. They are entirely different leagues. Apart from size, propulsion system and range, it is ultimately the purpose for which they are built. The CEP (Circular Error Probability) is determining factor here. Cruise missiles have very small CEP giving them capability to engage very small targets with great accuracy. Add the cruise missiles ability to evade defenced and everything starts to make sense. 350 km range? Make it 250 I say. If Pakistan takes out critical targets within 250 km of our border, India no longer remains in threatening posture. For deeper targets we have other missiles, to cover entire India. India has taken offensive posturing in the past. Cruise missiles are a good response to that. A very advanced weapon. But only those who know how this stuff works can appreciate. For others, Agni wins, congrats!

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## FNFAL

Were any capabilities added in this test ?? Any details on that??


----------



## Bratva

Imran Rashid said:


> Uncle q logo ko tang kar rahy ho.................. Pakistan recent missiles in my view have been directed at targeting an invading army.* This cruise missile in my guess is meant for sea* more than land considering our comparatively weak naval power.



No it is not, it would fail over Sea terrain .Only to be used over land terrain

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## Mughal-Prince

Imran Khan said:


> apna joke banany ke liye test kerty hain kya ?



Yaar Imran ab yahan bhi chutia bunanay kay lia test kertay hain takay naukrian buchi raheen. Bus ab munh nahin khulwana yeh JamWhoriat ki chutia-pundi humari core tak mar ker choray gi. Jub en haramxadon say chutkara milay ga jub ta humaray pass kuch nahin buchay ga. Ab kisi ko mairi baat achi lugay Ya buri muger mujhay maloom hai main kia keh raha hn.

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## I.R.A

Bratva said:


> No it is not, it would fail over Sea terrain .Only to be used over land terrain



But @Horus said it was ............


----------



## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> No it is not, it would fail over Sea terrain .Only to be used over land terrain


on sea it will work with GPS only. Not with TERCOM or DSMC
But yes Raad is not meant for Moving targets at sea.Its a land strike missile for fixed targets

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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> on sea it will work with GPS only. Not with TERCOM or DSMC



So ? It would still fail at hitting moving targets at sea.


----------



## Screambowl

Paksanity said:


> Why would Pakistan need anything with larger range than Shaheen-II? Our focus has been the threat from India and we have got it covered now. Longer range weapons will start to bring other nations within their range and a diplomatic unease will develop. Why make someone feel threatened when we don't intend to?
> 
> Our focus should be and has been on improving the accuracy and survivability of these missiles.* Pakistani missiles are technologically advanced and this fact is acknowledged in serious circles. *Raa'd comes in the same light, a technologically advanced weapon which can penetrate sophisticated defenses and get the job done.
> 
> Developing a cruise missile is no small job and making one which can be Air Launched is even more complicated. Very very few nations have achieved it on their own including India. Please keep in mind that missile technology is absolutely restricted and totally denied to Pakistan. China was nowhere in cruise missile scene at the time we were working on it. We must appreciate scientists and engineers at AWC who made it possible.
> 
> Comparing cruise missile to a ballistic missile is foolish. They are entirely different leagues. Apart from size, propulsion system and range, it is ultimately the purpose for which they are built. The CEP (Circular Error Probability) is determining factor here. Cruise missiles have very small CEP giving them capability to engage very small targets with great accuracy. Add the cruise missiles ability to evade defenced and everything starts to make sense. 350 km range? Make it 250 I say. If Pakistan takes out critical targets within 250 km of our border, India no longer remains in threatening posture. For deeper targets we have other missiles, to cover entire India. India has taken offensive posturing in the past. Cruise missiles are a good response to that. A very advanced weapon. But only those who know how this stuff works can appreciate. For others, Agni wins, congrats!



How do you differentiate between, what is technologically advanced and what is inferior in case of Missiles? 

1) composite
2) electronics
3) fuel
4) accuracy
5) anti missile defence safety
6) less maintenance
7) stealth
8) manoeuvrability 

I will just point towards manoeuvrability , where Shaheen'S RV is using fins during reentry stage, where as India has achieved controlling through vectored thrust and reaction motors on the RV.

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## jaiind

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz is baar raad maar diya 5000km missile ka answer 350km range missile
> 
> nasr ka stck khatam ho gya kya bhai . i am expecting soon SABR missile from pakistan with range of 25km . as soon as india test long range missile tum log SABR missile se jawab do
> 
> indian test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pakistani answer lolz shooshni patakha *



you just comparing the cruise missile vs ballistic missile


----------



## TWINBLADE

Yaar ek hafta wait kar lete ,itni bhi kya bhechani.We got ALCM Bhramos line up for test this march tab kar lete test to show case technology prowness of pakistani engineers.


----------



## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> So ? It would still fail at hitting moving targets at sea.


lol....true



Screambowl said:


> How do you differentiate between, what is technologically advanced and what is inferior in case of Missiles?
> 
> 1) composite
> 2) electronics
> 3) fuel
> 4) accuracy
> 5) anti missile defence safety
> 6) less maintenance
> 7) stealth
> 8) manoeuvrability
> 
> I will just point towards manoeuvrability , where Shaheen'S RV is using fins during reentry stage, where as India has achieved controlling through vectored thrust and reaction motors on the RV.


Shaheen had fins on RV and that too on 1A.
But no version of shaheen has fins anymore. Sideways rockets


----------



## Imran Khan

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Much better timing than firing the Nasr missile immediately after we launched our *MARS PROBE *


kya ghanta better hai ?


----------



## shaheenmissile

TWINBLADE said:


> Yaar ek hafta wait kar lete ,itni bhi kya bhechani.We got ALCM Bhramos line up for test this march tab kar lete test to show case technology prowness of pakistani engineers.


You have "lined up for test.
We have deployed since 2008.
Play catchup with us


----------



## SamantK

Oh, testing of Raad would have been fine if it was done say another 2 months down the line, but what was the need to test it right after A5?

Pakistani agencies trolled Pakistanis, again!


----------



## Screambowl

shaheenmissile said:


> lol....true
> 
> 
> Shaheen had fins on RV and that too on 1A.
> But no version of shaheen has fins anymore. Sideways rockets


it has on the sideways


----------



## shaheenmissile

SamantK said:


> Oh, testing of Raad would have been fine if it was done say another 2 months down the line, but what was the need to test it right after A5?
> 
> Pakistani agencies trolled Pakistanis, again!


Its half a million dollar machine and Pakistan have them in deployed status. Every test means a new one has tp be built and that needs money.
On such occasions when India just banged something,our political leadership is easier to milk as they control budget.


----------



## TWINBLADE

shaheenmissile said:


> You have "lined up for test.
> We have deployed since 2008.
> Play catchup with us


We have our own Way to induct things.Pakistan is the only country where missile never fails and its already inducted before they even start testing.While on the other hands we are still testing agni 5 since 2012 and yet we need 2 more test for user trails. You see we are not as technology advanced as you people.


----------



## SamantK

shaheenmissile said:


> Its half a million dollar machine and Pakistan have them in deployed status. Every test means a new one has tp be built and that needs money.
> On such occasions when India just banged something,our political leadership is easier to milk as they control budget.


If your political leadership does not understand the difference between the type of Missiles Agni and Raad are then RIP. 

This test was just to troll Pakistanis and your agencies know it.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Imran Khan said:


> kya ghanta better hai ?



There the range difference was a few million kilometers, yahan pay it's only a few thousand


----------



## farhan_9909

TWINBLADE said:


> Yaar ek hafta wait kar lete ,itni bhi kya bhechani.We got ALCM Bhramos line up for test this march tab kar lete test to show case technology prowness of pakistani engineers.



oye khuda ka naam maano,banda koi sahi baat bhi kr leta hai,atleast don't act like your media goons.

I bet nescom is not even aware of Agni 5 test.


----------



## Dem!god

lolzzz...man.. this is hilarious...


----------



## SBD-3

Pakistani shaheens said:


> I heard somewhere that we are working on ICBM of range more than 7000km. Does anyone have info regarding it?


First Question why would we need that when the current inventory is able to cover good part of India. India may have a need for LR missile to go deep into China..


----------



## Screambowl

farhan_9909 said:


> oye khuda ka naam maano,banda koi sahi baat bhi kr leta hai,atleast don't act like your media goons.
> 
> I bet nescom is not even aware of Agni 5 test.


Does Pakistan use any long rage telemetry system to track missiles over the Indian subcontinent?


----------



## farhan_9909

Screambowl said:


> Does Pakistan use any long rage telemetry system to track missiles over the Indian subcontinent?



I don't know,@*The Deterrent *might know


----------



## Echo_419

farhan_9909 said:


> oye khuda ka naam maano,banda koi sahi baat bhi kr leta hai,atleast don't act like your media goons.
> 
> *I bet nescom is not even aware of Agni 5 test.*



LOL,you really believe that Pakistani Establishment is not studying each & every single one of Indian Missiles


----------



## trident2010

Good work Pak, Congrats !!


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## shontumontu




----------



## s.k

13 komaun said:


> I hope it would again be test fired when India will launch manned space mission.


testing on indian space craft ?


----------



## shaheenmissile

Conclusive proof of terrain hugging capability

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## graphican

Pakistan doesn't have an enemy 5000KM away from our borders. Pakistan stopped extending its missile range after we had achieved maximum needful depth against our enemy. 

*Now the question to ask would be, if Ra'ad the same version of was that improved one? *I had learned that Pakistan was working to reduce height of Babur so its ground hugging capability and hence ability to stay out of possible tracking would improve.


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## Zarvan

graphican said:


> Pakistan doesn't have an enemy 5000KM away from our borders. Pakistan stopped extending its missile range after we had achieved maximum needful depth against our enemy.
> 
> *Now the question to ask would be, if Ra'ad the same version of was that improved one? *I had learned that Pakistan was working to reduce height of Babur so its ground hugging capability and hence ability to stay out of possible tracking would improve.


Sir we are working on ICBMs


----------



## atya

Even if Pakistan is working or has ICBMs. I don't expect them to disclose this information. It's in their national interest not to, because who wants to shoot themselves in the foot. Any Pakistani knows that revealing this info. would lead to possible isolation and sanctions.


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## Windjammer

No PR29/2015-ISPR Dated: February 2, 2015
Rawalpindi - February 2, 2015:
Pakistan conducted a successful Flight Test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) "Ra'ad".

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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> View attachment 189208
> 
> 
> Conclusive proof of terrain hugging capability



ALCM must've been flying at treetop height 10-20 meters. Hence the shadow caste below on land

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## s.k

graphican said:


> Pakistan doesn't have an enemy 5000KM away from our borders. Pakistan stopped extending its missile range after we had achieved maximum needful depth against our enemy.
> 
> *Now the question to ask would be, if Ra'ad the same version of was that improved one? *I had learned that Pakistan was working to reduce height of Babur so its ground hugging capability and hence ability to stay out of possible tracking would improve.


what about isreal ? isn't it our enemy ?


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## Hurter

Congrats Pakistan.. . Haters will always poop from their mouth.

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## Windjammer

Compared to the previous system (Top), one can clearly see that the missile tested today has additional features under the nose. Also note in the footage @ 0.20, how the missile changes attitude and dives down to treetop level into ground hugging mode.

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## 13 komaun

s.k said:


> testing on indian space craft ?


the range is not enough


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## graphican

s.k said:


> what about isreal ? isn't it our enemy ?



Israel is within our reach already.





If we had to attack Israel, we won't be limited to Pakistan's territory only.

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## shaheenmissile

Windjammer said:


> Compared to the previous system (Top), one can clearly see that the missile tested today has additional features under the nose. Also note in the footage @ 0.20, how the missile changes attitude and dives down to treetop level into ground hugging mode.


That is a pitot tube which has been there since first version.
But on top of the missile there seems to be further additions compared to previous versions.


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## ares

Horus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 5X submarines including AIP, each can carry 16X babur if needed in torpedo tubes. However such a load out is unlikely to be allocated to a sub crew.
> 
> 
> 
> We have partial triad because we don't have an SSBN. We are working towards that end, slowly but steadily.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes by AERO formerly known as Air Weapons Complex.
> 
> 
> 
> While designing this system Indian radar capabilities are kept in mind though i can't give you a specific answer to this question.
> 
> 
> 
> India and Pakistan test missiles around the same time not because of tit for tat posture but because they get money allocated to them around the same time and the climate is suitable for testing around the same time due to geographic proximity.



No it is not, Babur has not been configured to be fired from subs yet.

Agosta have never test fired Babur missiles.

Neither the design modification (additional booster required to propel the missile out of water) has been added.


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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> ho ga to test kareen gy na bhai



Imran Pakistan was working on ICBM even before India after 2001 but because of US threatening to Mush regime over Pakistan Nuclear Program like Libya, Mush regime rollback ICBM project. Pakistan lost in ICBM race @ that time unfortunately because of fear of sanctions.


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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> No it is not, Babur has not been configured to be fired from subs yet.
> 
> Agosta have never test fired Babur missiles.
> 
> Neither the design modification (additional booster required to propel the missile out of water) has been added.


Agosta will never "Publicly" fire Babur due to political reasons. Many cages will be rattled and some contracts may be violated with France as Agosta is not our sub. Its made under licence.
There may be some clause in the licence barring nuclear role.

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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> Agni-5 is a 50 ton fatty which can never be a true road mobile missile.
> Look around,all road mobile missiles in the world are less than 30 tons. Same as Pakistan's shaheen 2



If Chinese DF-41 missile weighing over 80 Tonnes is road mobile, you can bet your Agni 5 is road mobile too.








shaheenmissile said:


> Agosta will never "Publicly" fire Babur due to political reasons. Many cages will be rattled and some contracts may be violated with France as Agosta is not our sub. Its made under licence.
> There may be some clause in the licence barring nuclear role.




Well then as a defence enthusiast, you have no way of proving, Babur can be fired from Agostas.

Besides if Babur would have been ever fired from a sub, somewhere, something would have come out.

For example when Israelis tested popeye SLCM missiles from their German subs, Americans recorded the test and leaked it.

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## salarsikander

VelocuR said:


> @Horus, what's up with his mentality issue? Take a look


Old rusted brain in Saudi heat is creaking noises

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## Shotgunner51

Well done ...

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## paki boy

when pakistan is going to launch taimur missile????

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## SipahSalar

Norwegian said:


> Like if that neighbor has nothing in its box of surprises for us?


So what do you expect us to do? Lay down?


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## QAMAR SHAZAD

good my pakistan


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## notorious_eagle

SamantK said:


> Oh, testing of Raad would have been fine if it was done say another 2 months down the line, but what was the need to test it right after A5?
> 
> Pakistani agencies trolled Pakistanis, again!



This was scheduled routine testing, get over yourself.


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## rockstar08

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL



you know its enough to hit any strategic Base or Target inside India ...


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## @RV

This is clearly a d**k measuring contest and it's not good. Pakistan could have chosen some other day or it should have tested it's cruise missile before Indian test.
This can't be a coincidence as these date collisions are happening almost every time.

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## rockstar08

@Horus you made a big statement back in post ... that Babur can be fired from Augosta 90b's , and the subs can carry uptop 15X ... i was hearing the rumors on PDF that Pakistan is working on Babur naval version , so does this mean we already done ?? and if that so why they didnt publicly announce it ?? 

and if this news is true than really , you made my day

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## Saifullah Sani




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## Pomegranate

*VIDEO 1*




*VIDEO 2*




*VIDEO 3*





it is AIR TO SURFACE MISSILE ............so the range should be this much ....... what pakistan is doing is keeping india in mind and improve the technology and keep adding up to that ...... that is really good ..

If you have thousands of missile without quality does not make sence if you have even few but quality that is what matters .. Pakistan is really doing well and keeping india uner check

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## airbus101

Is it me or its just PAF always fire RAAD with 538 something special with this number.


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## HRK

shaheenmissile said:


> View attachment 189208
> 
> Conclusive proof of terrain hugging capability





Windjammer said:


> how the *missile changes attitude and dives down to treetop level into ground hugging mode*.








Quite a good example of ground hugging .... such a nice click whoever has taken that pic hats of to that guy to even plan that Camerashot

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> View attachment 189348
> 
> 
> Quite a good example of ground hugging .... such a nice click however has taken that pic hats of to that guy to even plan thatCamerashot


Kudos to the pilot of the chase aircraft.

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## shaheenmissile

HRK said:


> View attachment 189348
> 
> 
> Quite a good example of ground hugging .... such a nice click however has taken that pic hats of to that guy to even plan thatCamerashot


sorry,that is not a mud house,thats a hill at some distance.

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## Mrc

What indians who are jumping up and down boasting about 5000 km range probably dont realize the challange a stealth cruise missile posses. 
They can be used in first solvo of a nuclear strike to neutralise any missile defence enemy might posses followed within minutes by ballistic missiles which than be un stopable..this in a hypothetical scenario of opposite side mastering a missile defence which i personally dont feel they can... but any how....

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## Dr. Strangelove

Mrc said:


> What indians who are jumping up and down boasting about 5000 km range probably dont realize the challange a stealth cruise missile posses.
> They can be used in first solvo of a nuclear strike to neutralise any missile defence enemy might posses followed within minutes by ballistic missiles which than be un stopable..this in a hypothetical scenario of opposite side mastering a missile defence which i personally dont feel they can... but any how....


some of ours started this $hit u should first go through the thread before posting

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## kollang

Congratulations!!

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## Pomegranate

Dr. Stranglove said:


> some of ours started this $hit u should first go through the thread before posting


Those idiots are not ours they are indians under cover and they use pakistani flag and they use it for this kind of thread ...A pakistani would never do that ..........PDF @waz @WebMaster @Oscar should take action against these under cover indians they demoralize threads like this .....
they are jealous of pakistan technology .


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## Dr. Strangelove

Pomegranate said:


> Those idiots are not ours they are indians under cover and they use pakistani flag and they use it for this kind of thread ...*A pakistani would never* do that ..........PDF @waz @WebMaster @Oscar should take action against these under cover indians they demoralize threads like this .....
> they are jealous of pakistan technology .


your telling me imran khan who has been a member of this forum since 2006 is an indian 
get a life dude u dont know what pakistanis can do


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## MadDog

Norwegian said:


> I meant even Babur missile is better than this.



Get a life dude, cruise missiles are supposed to have lesser ranges than ballistic missiles
{Cruise missile of different countries}
USA------------Tomahawk-----1300km range
Germany---- Taurus -----------500km range
Russia--------As17 krypton----150km range
China---------YJ-91--------------110km range
India-----------Brahmos----------300-500km

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## s.k

13 komaun said:


> the range is not enough


so do you mean that Pakistan having only raad ? not other missiles ?


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## Green Arrow

Good Stuff.


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## HRK

rockstar08 said:


> so does this mean we already done ?? and if that so why they didnt publicly announce it ??
> 
> and if this news is true than really , you made my day



Dr. Samar Mubarak Mand interview of 2007 or 2008 (related news @ 2:00)









> _At issue is the detection by American intelligence agencies of a suspicious missile test on April 23 (2009)_ — a test never announced by the Pakistanis — that appeared to give the country a new offensive weapon.
> 
> American military and intelligence officials say they suspect that Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles that the United States sold the country in the 1980s, a move that would be a violation of the Arms Control Export Act. Pakistan has denied the charge, *saying it developed the missile itself.*
> 
> Whatever their origin, the missiles would be a significant new entry into Pakistan’s arsenal against India. *They would enable Pakistan’s small navy to strike targets on land,*
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html?_r=2&

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

Congratulations on this missile test. Some body posted that the speed of this missile is 0.7 to 0.8 mach. Isn't it slow. Can an anti aircraft hit it ?

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## bloo

Why are they not using JF-17 for testing Raad?


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## Mrc

Although we should take a point . ICBM range missile must be tested early...pak does have the technology...or even if not its can easily be procured from china...


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## rockstar08

HRK said:


> Dr. Samar Mubarak Mand interview of 2007 or 2008 (related news @ 2:00)




thanks , and he said we do have sea launch CM, with range of 700 km Range , so obviously he is talking about babur ... 
that is awesome news ... Thanks for the video

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## SamantK

notorious_eagle said:


> This was scheduled routine testing, get over yourself.


A schedule which closely follows our tests, yeah keep telling that schedule thing to your gullible mind.


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## Bilal.

SamantK said:


> A schedule which closely follows our tests, yeah keep telling that schedule thing to your gullible mind.



If the message being told to the "gullible minds" and the world is that it's a routine test then doesn't it defeat the purpose of the alleged response to indian test to boost the moral of those "gullible minds". Its self contradictory....


----------



## Basel

farhan_9909 said:


> Reported by AAJ and SAMAA news
> 
> =======================
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> *The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea.*
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



Awesome  now more problem for IN as now Ra'ad can hit targets at sea and range is 350 kms.


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## shaheenmissile

HRK said:


> Dr. Samar Mubarak Mand interview of 2007 or 2008 (related news @ 2:00)


Good find. I have edited just to show the part where he confirms in 2008 that Pakistan has Sea based cruise missiles

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## Ray_of_Hope

Which aircraft was used to launch Ra`ad?


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## Basel

Norwegian said:


> I meant even Babur missile is better than this.



Its ALCM with range of 350 kms just think how far it can be delivered against IN? as now it can hit targets at sea also small range missiles are tested to make sure that India can't launch its Brahmos and air crafts easily, they are good deterrent against any Cold Start type misadventure its a area denial weapon of PAF. Just imagine how difficult it will be for IN CBG to handle JF-17 with CM-400AKG range 240 kms & Mirages with Ra'ad range 350 kms.


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## Water Car Engineer

It's called the Nasr affect. Fire a Nasr or whatever right after India does something, then everything India does before hand is void. Very clever indeed.

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## notorious_eagle

SamantK said:


> A schedule which closely follows our tests, yeah keep telling that schedule thing to your gullible mind.



The testing of a CM against an ICBM is the same as comparing apples to oranges. Despite that, if this line of thinking helps you sleep better at night, go ahead

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Compared to the previous system (Top), one can clearly see that the missile tested today has additional features under the nose. Also note in the footage @ 0.20, how the missile changes attitude and dives down to treetop level into ground hugging mode.






It looks some kind of Antenna under nose. Most probably a data link for mid course update ?


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## PATHAN786KING

Norwegian said:


> 350 km range? LOL


tu 350 centi meter tk janay wali shurli bna dy nach janay angan thera



Ind4Ever said:


> Not. It will take trajectory changes to align itself to target pakistan. More over what is so special with A5 War head is that it can course correct itself .So destroying it with air defense is near impossible . So A5 Won .
> We can even fire it Andaman island even with your logic
> 
> A5 won over RaaD


A5 or RAAD are different categories

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## 45'22'

war khan said:


> Which aircraft was used to launch Ra`ad?


Mirage fighters

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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> It looks some kind of Antenna under nose. Most probably a data link for mid course update ?


Its a pitot tube


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## farhan_9909

would it be safe to assume that after the indian reactions today,we can consider them as the most funny people to have ever lived in the history of mankind.

how many of you agree with me?

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## PATHAN786KING

me_itsme said:


> Why is it called air launched? Is it launched from an aircraft?


yes


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## 45'22'

Basel said:


> Its ALCM with range of 350 kms just think how far it can be delivered against IN? as now it can hit targets at sea also small range missiles are tested to make sure that India can't launch its Brahmos and air crafts easily, they are good deterrent against any Cold Start type misadventure its a area denial weapon of PAF. Just imagine how difficult it will be for IN CBG to handle JF-17 with CM-400AKG range 240 kms & Mirages with Ra'ad range 350 kms.


Afaik.....raad can only hit stationary targets not the moving ones 
so there is no naval use of it 

2nd 
it won't be difficult for IN CBG to counter this 
what makes you think India will allow the thunders or mirages to come closer
That's why the migs are there 
I m not even talking about EW and counter measures of the Carriers itself

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## Norwegian

PATHAN786KING said:


> tu 350 centi meter tk janay wali shurli bna dy nach janay angan thera


Come on, it was just a joke!


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## tarrar

Good, but I am tired of these tested missile been tested again & again. Test something new PD.

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## PATHAN786KING

Norwegian said:


> Come on, it was just a joke!


Faisalabad ka pani pia teray joke ko aisa lapate k doon ga k daant dikha k hasna chorna dy ga


----------



## Norwegian

PATHAN786KING said:


> Faisalabad ka pani pia teray joke ko aisa lapate k doon ga k daant dikha k hasna chorna dy ga


What's so special about Faisalabad's water?


----------



## Basel

45'22' said:


> Afaik.....raad can only hit stationary targets not the moving ones
> so there is no naval use of it
> 
> 2nd
> it won't be difficult for IN CBG to counter this
> what makes you think India will allow the thunders or mirages to come closer
> That's why the migs are there
> I m not even talking about EW and counter measures of the Carriers itself



Read again what is officially announced it can hit targets at sea and it not easy to find Ra'ad as it is designed and deployed to be stealthy, and your ships will be busy to save their asss from supersonic CM-400AKG during which Ra'ad, Harpoons & C-802As will arrive to make situation worse. I have not even mentioned Surface or sub surface launched missiles in it.

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## PATHAN786KING

Norwegian said:


> What's so special about Faisalabad's water?


ya tujay main teray aglay joke pe btaon ga

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## 45'22'

Basel said:


> Read again what is officially announced it can hit targets at sea and it not easy to find Ra'ad as it is designed and deployed to be stealthy, and your ships will be busy to save their asss from supersonic CM-400AKG during which Ra'ad, Harpoons & C-802As will arrive to make situation worse. I have not even mentioned Surface or sub surface launched missiles in it.


Where it's officially announced???

I agree cruise missiles are difficult to detect hence they will be used against land based targets
You again can't use nuclear warhead 
in order to understand this you have to go through Indian nuclear doctrine

Again you are talking about the same cm400akg and others 
you need to understand the CBG will detect the thunders first and so the thunders have to go through migs first b4 firing them and that is a very difficult thing to do 
you don't have any sub launched missiles....you have torpedoes
Even if you do have those missiles.....how will they be useful against a moving target 

I mentioned the countermeasures because the CBG's countermeasures are really effective
I guess you didn't got the point

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> Read again what is officially announced it can hit targets at sea and it not easy to find Ra'ad as it is designed and deployed to be stealthy, and your ships will be busy to save their asss from supersonic CM-400AKG during which Ra'ad, Harpoons & C-802As will arrive to make situation worse. I have not even mentioned Surface or sub surface launched missiles in it.



As if Indians are going to school and universities and some top universities and doing researches, in the world to get hit by a stolen missile by Pakistan. And according to Pakistanis, Indian military will make themselves sitting ducks. And you think , after launching Raad, Pakistan's whole navy fleet will survive? Very impressing estimations..


----------



## Basel

45'22' said:


> Where it's officially announced???
> 
> I agree cruise missiles are difficult to detect hence they will be used against land based targets
> You again can't use nuclear warhead
> in order to understand this you have to go through Indian nuclear doctrine
> 
> Again you are talking about the same cm400akg and others
> you need to understand the CBG will detect the thunders first and so the thunders have to go through migs first b4 firing them and that is a very difficult thing to do
> you don't have any sub launched missiles....you have torpedoes
> Even if you do have those missiles.....how will they be useful against a moving target
> 
> I mentioned the countermeasures because the CBG's countermeasures are really effective
> I guess you didn't got the point



Don' assume things which I have not said and Ra'ad can accommodate multiple guidance systems and can receive targeting data (NCW) from other sources which makes it more difficult to find and it is not necessary to use nukes to destroy or damage a ship? PAF will be used in conjunction of PN for sea denial and both have assets which can full fill their doctrine, its about weapons which allows you to implement it effectively.



Screambowl said:


> As if Indians are going to school and universities and some top universities and doing researches, in the world to get hit by a stolen missile by Pakistan. And according to Pakistanis, Indian military will make themselves sitting ducks. And you think , after launching Raad, Pakistan's whole navy fleet will survive? Very impressing estimations..



you are just a fan boy who don't even understand how sea control and sea denial works, its useless to talk to these kind of people.

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## salmanACCA

Long live Pak Sarzameen

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## Sliver

Ahmad Qayyum said:


> Of course. That missile is Tipu missile and it has range of 5500 km. This is ICBM. By some sources, I come to know that pakistan has prepared this missile. *And now Pakistan is working on missile that has range of 15000 km*.



This is definitely a troll ID - @Horus can you please do the honors?


----------



## Bratva

ares said:


> If Chinese DF-41 missile weighing over 80 Tonnes is road mobile, you can bet your Agni 5 is road mobile too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well then as a defence enthusiast, you have no way of proving, Babur can be fired from Agostas.
> 
> Besides if Babur would have been ever fired from a sub, somewhere, something would have come out.
> 
> For example when Israelis tested popeye SLCM missiles from their German subs, Americans recorded the test and leaked it.




Actually something did pop out in 2010 when Americans thought we were testing illegally modifying harpoons and they made a ruckus out of it. Pakistan response was quite surprising at that time



Screambowl said:


> As if Indians are going to school and universities and some top universities and doing researches,* in the world to get hit by a stolen missile by Pakistan*. And according to Pakistanis, Indian military will make themselves sitting ducks. And you think , after launching Raad, Pakistan's whole navy fleet will survive? Very impressing estimations..

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## SamantK

notorious_eagle said:


> The testing of a CM against an ICBM is the same as comparing apples to oranges. Despite that, if this line of thinking helps you sleep better at night, go ahead


I don't know, you tell me the testing routine schedule somehow has to be done after ours, yeah you are right it helps me sleep better at night


----------



## 45'22'

Basel said:


> Don' assume things which I have not said and Ra'ad can accommodate multiple guidance systems and can receive targeting data (NCW) from other sources which makes it more difficult to find and it is not necessary to use nukes to destroy or damage a ship? PAF will be used in conjunction of PN for sea denial and both have assets which can full fill their doctrine, its about weapons which allows you to implement it effectively.
> 
> 
> 
> you are just a fan boy who don't even understand how sea control and sea denial works, its useless to talk to these kind of people.


You can only use ins 
And raad will only rely on that 
Tercom is only for land based targets 

Again you are missing the point 
The fighters have to come closer to fire the missiles which India won't allow to do 
Let's say Pak fires a raad from 100km(considering it survives the migs and Barak) at mach 0.8 (~270m/s)
that means it will take around 360 seconds to hit the ac and 6 minutes is good enough to maneuver the ac
But the ac will be equipped with modern CIWS which takes around 5 to 10 seconds to neutralize those missiles
+the ac's EW system can fry the electronics of the incoming threat
That's the best case scenario for Pakistan still I don't see the possibility of it killing the AC


And it's not like you fire one missile and kill the ac
AC now a days can take multiple hits
You can render them useless though with multiple hits

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## SamantK

Bilal. said:


> If the message being told to the "gullible minds" and the world is that it's a routine test then doesn't it defeat the purpose of the alleged response to indian test to boost the moral of those "gullible minds". Its self contradictory....


Don't stress your brain now, shoo..


----------



## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> So ? It would still fail at hitting moving targets at sea.


Actually that is something being worked upon for both Ra'ad & Babur. That is why the Press Release keeps saying _"strategic standoff capability at both land and sea"._



Screambowl said:


> Does Pakistan use any long rage telemetry system to track missiles over the Indian subcontinent?


No _that _long-range (i.e. PN does not possess any dedicated tracking ships), however PN uses a part of its existing surface fleet for ballistic missile tracking & telemetry over the Indian Ocean (NOT the subcontinent).



HRK said:


> View attachment 189348
> 
> 
> Quite a good example of ground hugging .... such a nice click whoever has taken that pic hats of to that guy to even plan that Camerashot


That is quite misleading, its not a mud-house but a distant hill, and there is no way that arrow depicts altitude.

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## Dem!god

i would say bad timing... shd hv waited for atleast 10-15 days... 
it seems like they fired it to get trolled... 

anyway.. good launch... congrats...


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## Basel

45'22' said:


> You can only use ins
> And raad will only rely on that
> Tercom is only for land based targets
> 
> Again you are missing the point
> The fighters have to come closer to fire the missiles which India won't allow to do
> Let's say Pak fires a raad from 100km(considering it survives the migs and Barak) at mach 0.8 (~270m/s)
> that means it will take around 360 seconds to hit the ac and 6 minutes is good enough to maneuver the ac
> But the ac will be equipped with modern CIWS which takes around 5 to 10 seconds to neutralize those missiles
> +the ac's EW system can fry the electronics of the incoming threat
> That's the best case scenario for Pakistan still I don't see the possibility of it killing the AC
> 
> 
> And it's not like you fire one missile and kill the ac
> AC now a days can take multiple hits
> You can render them useless though with multiple hits



It will also use radar too and it will be part of NCW environment so guidance is not a big issue, and your Mig-29Ks will have to run for their money to save your CBG as there is no air defense missile in IN which can hit more then 180 to 220 kms (safe distance to launch AShM) and PAF will be in luxury to launch Ra'ad from 280 km away and CM-400AKG from 200 km away while they will be able to protect them too and IN will have to relie on Mig-29Ks as they will be very far from Indian coast. Also remember that IN will keep distance from Pakistani coast as PN's coastal defense batteries can hit very long at sea backed by FACs. PN may not be able to go on offensive on Indian assets at coasts but they can defend their sea lines and coast line.


----------



## Screambowl

Basel said:


> you are just a fan boy who don't even understand how sea control and sea denial works, its useless to talk to these kind of people.


If I go to some core technical details, you will get yourself in jungle of confusions.. 

You are talking about Raad, and it's antiship adventures.

If it is tough to detect a sea skimming missile due to radar clutter, then it is also difficult for a cruise missile to detect its target, that too in motion.

More over, it is easy for a ship to detect a missile due to it's more sophisticated radar which can perform doppler processing and moving target indication, balancing signal to clutter ratio. Where as Cruise missile seeker has limited application.

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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> If I go to some core technical details, you will get yourself in jungle of confusions..
> 
> You are talking about Raad, and it's antiship adventures.
> 
> *If it is tough to detect a sea skimming missile due to radar clutter, then it is also difficult for a cruise missile to detect its target, that too in motion.*
> 
> More over, it is easy for a ship to detect a missile due to it's more sophisticated radar which can perform doppler processing and moving target indication, balancing signal to clutter ratio. Where as Cruise missile seeker has limited application.



Get your facts right all top AShM are Sea Skimming missiles and fall in cruise missile category google about Tomahawk anti ship version it may increase you knowledge.

Also there are UAVs available in market which are there to provide targeting data, Scan Eagle etc.


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## Bratva

The Deterrent said:


> *Actually that is something being worked upon for both Ra'ad & Babur. That is why the Press Release keeps saying "strategic standoff capability at both land and sea".*
> 
> 
> No _that _long-range (i.e. PN does not possess any dedicated tracking ships), however PN uses a part of its existing surface fleet for ballistic missile tracking & telemetry over the Indian Ocean (NOT the subcontinent).
> 
> 
> That is quite misleading, its not a mud-house but a distant hill, and there is no way that arrow depicts altitude.



It took 7-8 years to build a cruise missile from scratch. It took 3-4 years to build ALCM. and Shaheen 2 took 5 years. 

But it's more than 10 years and upgradation of capabilities still remain stuck in " Development hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "


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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> Get your facts right all top AShM are Sea Skimming missiles and fall in cruise missile category google about Tomahawk anti ship version it may increase you knowledge.
> 
> Also there are UAVs available in market which are there to provide targeting data, Scan Eagle etc.



But you don't have Tom hawk. And Tom hawk is not successful against any moving target, unless there is a dedicated military satellite/ or ground intelligence to update its data per micro seconds. At sea, the scenario becomes worst.

And you will launch a UAV which will fly near Indian CBG like freely? Come on, be realistic.

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> That is quite misleading, its not a mud-house but a distant hill, and there is no way that arrow depicts altitude.



OK sir jee aap ki maan laytey hai ....

BTW I am curious how do they mark missiles like whats the methodology related to the serial number of missile??







as the missile in the above photo is marked '208' & by this I am in no way suggesting that its the 208th missile of batch/ inventory


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## Screambowl

The Deterrent said:


> No _that _long-range (i.e. PN does not possess any dedicated tracking ships), however PN uses a part of its existing surface fleet for ballistic missile tracking & telemetry over the Indian Ocean (NOT the subcontinent).


Any under development, for testing long range missiles, well one day Pakistan would need it to launch satellites.


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## 45'22'

Basel said:


> It will also use radar too and it will be part of NCW environment so guidance is not a big issue, and your Mig-29Ks will have to run for their money to save your CBG as there is no air defense missile in IN which can hit more then 180 to 220 kms (safe distance to launch AShM) and PAF will be in luxury to launch Ra'ad from 280 km away and CM-400AKG from 200 km away while they will be able to protect them too and IN will have to relie on Mig-29Ks as they will be very far from Indian coast. Also remember that IN will keep distance from Pakistani coast as PN's coastal defense batteries can hit very long at sea backed by FACs. PN may not be able to go on offensive on Indian assets at coasts but they can defend their sea lines and coast line.



The EL/M-2248 MF-STAR onboard the kolkata class destroyer has a range of 350km 
the long range radars of vikramaditya has 500km surveillance range

The Close in weapons system can kill the missiles at 1500m range in 5.5 sec
The Barak can kill the fighters 
the AC's can fry the electronics within its surveillance range
Kamov Ka31 can kill the subs 


What are you talking about???

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## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> It took 7-8 years to build a cruise missile from scratch. It took 3-4 years to build ALCM. and Shaheen 2 took 5 years.
> 
> But it's more than 10 years and upgradation of capabilities still remain stuck in " Development hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "


What I'm referring to is a major upgrade, something like a second version in the series. The basic Ra'ad (350 km) & Babur (~500km) are already in production.



HRK said:


> OK sir jee aap ki maan laytey hai ....
> 
> BTW I am curious how do they mark missiles like whats the methodology related to the serial number of missile??
> as the missile in the above photo is marked '208' & by this I am in no way suggesting that its the 208th missile of batch/ inventory


No idea about that.



Screambowl said:


> Any under development, for testing long range missiles, well one day Pakistan would need it to launch satellites.


Not yet. For now, the current systems suffice.

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## Mughal-Prince

jaiind said:


> you just comparing the cruise missile vs ballistic missile



You will never understand what Imran Khan actually meant so leave it.


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## Mrc

45'22' said:


> The EL/M-2248 MF-STAR onboard the kolkata class destroyer has a range of 350km
> the long range radars of vikramaditya has 500km surveillance range
> 
> The Close in weapons system can kill the missiles at 1500m range in 5.5 sec
> The Barak can kill the fighters
> the AC's can fry the electronics within its surveillance range
> Kamov Ka31 can kill the subs
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???




Even americans have recently termed chinese cruise missiles as largest threat to their naval dominance in asia...what are you talking about


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## 45'22'

Mrc said:


> Even americans have recently termed chinese cruise missiles as largest threat to their naval dominance in asia...what are you talking about


I m being realistic 
I would like to see the news article to know more about it 
it would be very helpful if you can post the link here

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## Mrc

Saw it on cnn...dont have a link...
By the way being realistic any war where your carier is moving in would already have crossed nuclear threshold...
Also please enlighten me as for if any of the air defences are actually installed on the carier as per my knowledge its all planned for future..


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## N/A

I love how Pakistan tests weapons out of the blue...no warning or nothing


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## Mrc

Self delete


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## Mrc

45'22' said:


> I m being realistic
> I would like to see the news article to know more about it
> it would be very helpful if you can post the link here





These Weapons Could Be China's Most Threatening Military Advancement For The US | Business Insider India


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## Abingdonboy

Basel said:


> Its ALCM with range of 350 kms just think how far it can be delivered against IN? as now it can hit targets at sea also small range missiles are tested to make sure that India can't launch its Brahmos and air crafts easily, they are good deterrent against any Cold Start type misadventure its a area denial weapon of PAF. *Just imagine how difficult it will be for IN CBG to handle JF-17 with CM-400AKG range 240 kms & Mirages with Ra'ad range 350 kms*.




Not a major concern, the EL/M-2248 MF-STARs onboard the IN's Aircraft carriers and escorts have a detection range in excess of 300KM and if we bring in the CBG's BARCAP with the IN's MiG-29Ks the JF-17 and Mirages hardly pose a serious threat

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> Read again what is officially announced it can hit targets at sea and it not easy to find Ra'ad as it is designed and deployed to be stealthy, and your ships will be busy to save their asss from supersonic CM-400AKG during which Ra'ad, Harpoons & C-802As will arrive to make situation worse. I have not even mentioned Surface or sub surface launched missiles in it.



What do you think how many ships present in Indian CBG? And of which class??

There would be any sub surface vessel inside CBG incuding SSN and SSK?

What would be role of MF-STAR , Barak and Shatil? How many fleet capable SAM exist in a whole CBG?

What would be the role of mig-29k, kamov 31 and 28?

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## Abingdonboy

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> I love how Pakistan tests weapons out of the blue...no warning or nothing


Hardly out of the blue, anyone who have been watching Pakistan's SOPs would have been expecting this test after India's recent A5 test.


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## Abdullah Bangladeshi

Congratulations from Bangladesh

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## kaku1

45'22' said:


> The EL/M-2248 MF-STAR onboard the kolkata class destroyer has a range of 350km
> the long range radars of vikramaditya has 500km surveillance range
> 
> The Close in weapons system can kill the missiles at 1500m range in 5.5 sec
> The Barak can kill the fighters
> the AC's can fry the electronics within its surveillance range
> Kamov Ka31 can kill the subs
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???


Bro these are speculations. Actually no one knows the real power and range of MF-STAR.

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## shaheenmissile

HRK said:


> as the missile in the above photo is marked '208' & by this I am in no way suggesting that its the 208th missile of batch/ inventory
> View attachment 189459



Good observation. But whi it can't be missile number 208?

Also note the pitot tube and pressure sensors. Must be a total of 7
Cirled in green.
One pitot on the bottom. Two pressure sensors on top,and two on each side.

Can't figure out what those two things are circled in blue?


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## HRK

shaheenmissile said:


> Good observation. But *whi it can't be missile number 208?*



because 12-'*140*' does not represent the *140th* copy of JF-17 nor the presence of UAE Air-force personal in front of it mean they were there to take the delivery of that jet, there is a limit we can speculate or can extract the information from a single pic for our guestimates 






shaheenmissile said:


> Also note the pitot tube and pressure sensors. Must be a total of 7
> Cirled in green.
> One pitot on the bottom. Two pressure sensors on top,and two on each side.
> 
> Can't figure out what those two things are circled in blue?
> View attachment 189491



Above two green circle are just the hooks used to tie/ load the missile to the hard-point of the jet .... can't comment about other circles


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## shaheenmissile

HRK said:


> Above two green circle are just the hooks used to tie/ load the missile to the hard-point of the jet .... can't comment about other circles


No they are pressure sensors






The ones circled in blue may be the hooks. Although i have seen storm shadow missile up close and the securing hooks were embedded inside missele body, not protruding out.

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## Viper0011.

45'22' said:


> The EL/M-2248 MF-STAR onboard the kolkata class destroyer has a range of 350km the long range radars of vikramaditya has 500km surveillance range
> 
> The Close in weapons system can kill the missiles at 1500m range in 5.5 sec
> The Barak can kill the fighters the AC's can fry the electronics within its surveillance range Kamov Ka31 can kill the subs
> 
> What are you talking about???



He's out of touch with reality friend. Don't mind him. He doesn't understand that the "supa dupa" carrier is capable of handling even the blue water Navy. It's that one CBG that the entire Chinese and the US navies are concerned with, so mighty!!

By the way, you forgot to mention that this aircraft carrier is capable of flying way above the SAM coverage, around 80,000 feet and can fly at Mach 2. Mach 2.5 if the jets are not parked on the deck

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## airmarshal

This seems to be huge missile. Which aircraft of PAF can carry this? Mirage?


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## ares

Bratva said:


> Actually something did pop out in 2010 when Americans thought we were testing illegally modifying harpoons and they made a ruckus out of it. Pakistan response was quite surprising at that time




That was a different controversy, Americans alleged Pakistan had illegally modified harpoon Anti ship Cruise missile supplied to Pakistan in 80s to strike at Land targets and it was violation of the Arms Control Export Act.

Harpoon was surface launched weapon of Pakistan's Amazon class frigates, whereas Pakistani submarines use Exocets.


----------



## Bratva

ares said:


> That was a different controversy, Americans alleged Pakistan had illegally modified harpoon Anti ship Cruise missile supplied to Pakistan in 80s to strike at Land targets and it was violation of the Arms Control Export Act.
> 
> Harpoon was surface launched weapon of Pakistan's Amazon class frigates, whereas Pakistani submarines use Exocets.



The point being, Pakistan was testing Sea launch cruise missile. Not harpoon.


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## ares

Bratva said:


> The point being, Pakistan was testing Sea launch cruise missile. Not harpoon.



No , Pakistan had modified a ship launched cruise missile(Harpoon as per the Americans) into LACM.
None of the reports indicated that any SLCM had been tested.



Basel said:


> Its ALCM with range of 350 kms just think how far it can be delivered against IN? as now it can hit targets at sea also small range missiles are tested to make sure that India can't launch its Brahmos and air crafts easily, they are good deterrent against any Cold Start type misadventure its a area denial weapon of PAF. Just imagine how difficult it will be for IN CBG to handle JF-17 with CM-400AKG range 240 kms & Mirages with Ra'ad range 350 kms.



Babur or RAAD are LACMs using Tercom Terrain Contour Matching or DSMAC i.e It uses a pre-recorded contour map of the terrain.

So far Pakistan has neither fitted a Active radar homing(required to lock on to a moving ship) nor does it have ocean magnetic field maps, required to fly over large water bodies.

So far Babur/RAAD can not be used as AShCM.

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## monitor

if the RAAD were tested from JF-17 then its a great news but if again from Mirage then i am not finding any significant other then answering Indian missile test . or if there are any improvement over previous one then too it is encouraging congratulation to Pakistani brothers.


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## HariPrasad

Tipu7 said:


> as expected




But I was expecting NSR. Anyway Congrats!!!!!!!!!


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## jaunty

I was expecting a routine Nasr test but congrats


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## Bilal.

SamantK said:


> Don't stress your brain now, shoo..



Seems yours has already snapped... Don't pollute the thread with your rambling...


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## Saifullah Sani



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## Bratva

ares said:


> No , Pakistan had modified a ship launched cruise missile(Harpoon as per the Americans) into LACM.
> None of the reports indicated that any SLCM had been tested.
> 
> 
> 
> Babur or RAAD are LACMs using Tercom Terrain Contour Matching or DSMAC i.e It uses a pre-recorded contour map of the terrain.
> 
> So far Pakistan has neither fitted a Active radar homing(required to lock on to a moving ship) nor does it have ocean magnetic field maps, required to fly over large water bodies.
> 
> So far Babur/RAAD can not be used as AShCM.



You ignored or forgot to read what Pakistan said America and beside Pakistan granted Americans complete access to Harpoon inventory to check if they were tempered or not. 

The point I was trying to make is pakistan is actively involed in an SLCM program from 8-9 years. The test in 2009 or 10 was trial launches of SLCM version of BABUR which American mistook it as Harpoon. Status of program is currently unknown. But yeah we do have limited capability to strike stationary targets in SEA due to availability of Chinese SAT NAV in Pakistan since 2013.

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## Saifullah Sani

*What is Ra’ad?*

Designed to target enemy installations like radar posts and command nodes at a standoff range of up to 350 kilometres, the indigenously developed Pakistani Ra’ad or Hataf-VIII missile weighs 1,100 kilograms and is 4.85 metres long.

*Successfully tested again on Monday, the sixth time since on August 25, 2007, this low-altitude Air Launched Cruise Missile is named after Holy Quran’s 13thchapter, Surah Ar-Ra’ad, meaning ‘the thunder’.* Incidentally, the word ‘Ra’ad’ is mentioned in the 13th verse of this Quranic Surah.

The 43 verses of Surah Ar-Ra’ad explain how Allah the Almighty has spread the earth, created mountains and rivers, how He causes the night to cover the day, how He sends the rain down from the sky and while this Quranic chapter promises paradise for the righteous, it warns disbelievers that the consequence for their defiance will be the punishment through fire.

*As far as Hataf-VIII is concerned*, it derives its title from “Al-Hataf,” which was one of Prophet Muhammad’s (SAW) nine swords.Kept in a museum, the sword “Al-Hataf” is 112 centimetres long and 8 centimetres wide.Of Hazrat Muhammad’s (SAW) nine swords, two were inherited from his family and three were from the spoils of war “Azab.”

*It is said that this sword was made by Hazrat Dawood (David) with his hands, as he was an expert in making and carving things from iron.Ra’ad, by the way, is also the name given to the family of self-propelled Iranian anti-tank and anti-ship missiles.

What is Ra’ad? - thenews.com.pk*

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## ares

Bratva said:


> The point I was trying to make is pakistan is actively involed in an SLCM program from 8-9 years. The test in 2009 or 10 was trial launches of SLCM version of BABUR which American mistook it as Harpoon. Status of program is currently unknown. But yeah we do have limited capability to strike stationary targets in SEA due to availability of Chinese SAT NAV in Pakistan since 2013.



The point you are making is not backed by facts.

Why would Americans mistake a 'sub launched Babur' as Harpoon, considering the fact they did not supply Pakistan with sub launched harpoons in 80s?

The only way that is possible is that, Pakistan might have tested was a ship launched weapon not a submarine launched weapon.

Stationary targets *at sea? *You mean an oil rig?


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## 45'22'

Viper0011. said:


> He's out of touch with reality friend. Don't mind him. He doesn't understand that the "supa dupa" carrier is capable of handling even the blue water Navy. It's that one CBG that the entire Chinese and the US navies are concerned with, so mighty!!
> 
> By the way, you forgot to mention that this aircraft carrier is capable of flying way above the SAM coverage, around 80,000 feet and can fly at Mach 2. Mach 2.5 if the jets are not parked on the deck


US and Chinese CBG are even more powerful 
I was talking about IndoPak context 

Rest your post was really funny.....you want a cookie for that awesome post you made?????



Mrc said:


> Saw it on cnn...dont have a link...
> By the way being realistic any war where your carier is moving in would already have crossed nuclear threshold...
> Also please enlighten me as for if any of the air defences are actually installed on the carier as per my knowledge its all planned for future..


Not yet


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## shaheenmissile

Defense.gov Contracts for Friday, March 30, 2007

Pakistan bought 30 sub launch harpoon containers in 2007,and in 2008 claimed to have sub launched cruise missile. And according to Dr.Samar interview that missile was a sub launched babur

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## definitelynotIndian

Imran Khan's post on front page deleted? rofl that burn on mods I guess


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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> Defense.gov Contracts for Friday, March 30, 2007
> 
> Pakistan bought 30 sub launch harpoon containers in 2007,and in 2008 claimed to have sub launched cruise missile. And according to Dr.Samar interview that missile was a sub launched babur



40 Harpoon Tactical Block II Encapsulated AURs (*Pakistan (30*) and Korea (10)), 15 *Harpoon Tactical Block II Air Launch AURs*
*
Defense.gov Contracts for Friday, March 30, 2007

Those were air launched harpoons AGM-84s to be used by P-3Cs that too in 2007 and not 80s.*


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

R! Rated missile ! 

Enough for Indians


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan needs to enhance the range of the cruise missiles to counter the alarming threat of the Indian Navy. Focus should be on increasing the conventional capabilities of the Pakistani Armed Forces with less or no dependence on nuclear weapons.


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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> 40 Harpoon Tactical Block II Encapsulated AURs (*Pakistan (30*) and Korea (10)), 15 *Harpoon Tactical Block II Air Launch AURs*
> *
> Defense.gov Contracts for Friday, March 30, 2007
> 
> Those were air launched harpoons AGM-84s to be used by P-3Cs that too in 2007 and not 80s.*


Why would air launched missile need encapsulation?


----------



## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> Why would air launched missile need encapsulation?



I quoted from the link you provided.


Pakistan ($15.8 million; 35.65%): 10 tactical block II *airlaunch AUR missiles*; 10 MK631 *canister AUR container*

$44.3M for International Harpoon Missile Sales

Boeing subsidiary to make missiles for Pakistan

Washington, Feb 14 (PTI) McDonnell Douglas Corp has received a fresh 15.79-million dollar contract to make 10 Harpoon anti-ship missiles for Pakistan, the Pentagon said today.
The company, a subsidiary of Boeing, will supply the missiles as part of a contract with the Naval Air Systems Command under the Foreign Military Sales programme, it said.

*Pakistan wants to use the Harpoon missiles with its P-3C maritime surveillance aircraft* that are being refurbished to improve their attack capabilities and with its surface ships and submarines.

*The contract is for 10 Harpoon Block II, grade B all-up-round missiles and an equal number of MK631 containers*. The bulk of the work will be carried out in Missouri, and some parts will be executed in other parts of the US.

The Pentagon also announced the contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal.

Last June, the Defence Security Cooperation Agency had informed Congress about Pakistan's request for an assortment of missiles, including the Harpoon Block II missiles, containers and missile modifications. It had placed the value of the deal at 370 million dollars.

According to Defence Industry Daily, the Harpoon Block II is an upgrade programme designed to improve the missile's ability to attack targets in congested littoral areas, where nearby land masses and other ships can provide cover for targets.

Harpoon Block II missiles can be deployed from all platforms that have the Harpoon missile system by using existing command and launch equipment.


----------



## Bratva

ares said:


> The point you are making is not backed by facts.
> 
> Why would Americans mistake a 'sub launched Babur' as Harpoon, considering the fact they did not supply Pakistan with sub launched harpoons in 80s?
> 
> The only way that is possible is that, Pakistan might have tested was a ship launched weapon not a submarine launched weapon.
> 
> Stationary targets *at sea? *You mean an oil rig?



When America was satisfied Pakistan didn't modified any old or new harpoons after inspecting complete inventory , how can you insist Pakistan still modified it ?


----------



## ares

Bratva said:


> When America was satisfied Pakistan didn't modified any old or new harpoons after inspecting complete inventory , how can you insist Pakistan still modified it ?



I am not claiming either, wether Pakistan did or did not modify the Harpoon missile..or if Americans were or were not satisfied .

*I am claiming 'IF' (and it is a big if) Pakistan tested any missile at sea, it wasn't sub launched Babur for then it wouldn't have been mistaken for a surface launched Harpoons, that American provided you in 80s.
*
Besides As per wikileaks Americans had turned down Pakistani request to supply them with Harpoons equipped with *Coastal target suppression system*, perhaps that is why, Pakistan might have felt compelled to modify its existing harpoon missile to attack land targets.

"
We have and will deny arms sales that we believe would upset the regional balance of power, as we have with the recent* GOP (Government of Pakistan) request to buy the Coastal Targeting Suppression System, which enables Harpoon missiles to be fired at land or near-land targets using GPS technology*, reads the cable titled Saving the F 16 Program."

Cable: 09ISLAMABAD586_a

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## Bratva

ares said:


> I am not claiming either, wether Pakistan did or did not modify the Harpoon missile..or if Americans were or were not satisfied .
> 
> *I am claiming 'IF' (and it is a big if) Pakistan tested any missile at sea, it wasn't sub launched Babur for then it wouldn't have been mistaken for a surface launched Harpoons, that American provided you in 80s.*



Pakistan aren't bound to tell you CM launches, How many times you have tested Sea launched BM under the garb of Agni 1 ? SLCM babur was being tested from offshore facilities back then or in shallow water through a poontoon. We never know until Pakistan discloses it


----------



## ares

Bratva said:


> Pakistan aren't bound to tell you CM launches, How many times you have tested Sea launched BM under the garb of Agni 1 ? SLCM babur was being tested from offshore facilities back then or in shallow water through a poontoon. We never know until Pakistan discloses it



I agree Pakistan is not bound to tell about cruise missile launches, *but that does not prove that Babur SLCM has been tested.*


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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> I agree Pakistan is not bound to tell about cruise missile launches, *but that does not prove that Babur SLCM has been tested.*


A 2008 interview of Dr.samar is posted in this thread. He clearly says Pakistan has sub launched Babur.


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## SipahSalar

ares said:


> I agree Pakistan is not bound to tell about cruise missile launches, *but that does not prove that Babur SLCM has been tested.*


Only one way to find out for sure huh?


----------



## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> A 2008 interview of Dr.samar is posted in this thread. He clearly says Pakistan has sub launched Babur.



Well what can I say to that logic,

Dr
*Samar Mubarakmand *does make a lot of *loud claims, *for example in his interviews he also claims
that India only has Prithvi missile, and no foreign satellite have picked us successful test of any Agni missiles.

And mind you this is 2008, when Agni 1 and 2 had already been inducted and Agni 3 has had three successful tests. Indo -Russian Bhramos which had been tested at least two dozen times by then has no proven capability.








SipahSalar said:


> Only one way to find out for sure huh?



Well why don't you try it then?

There is still a chance, a subsonic missile like Babur or RAAD can be shot down by missile defenses(Barak 1, 2 , AAD, Akash) or gatling guns or even CAP aircrafts, how will you stop Indian supersonic missiles or ballistic missiles?

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## genmirajborgza786

The Deterrent said:


> What I'm referring to is a major upgrade, something like a second version in the series. The basic Ra'ad (350 km) & Babur (~500km) are already in production.
> 
> 
> No idea about that.
> 
> 
> Not yet. For now, the current systems suffice.

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## ni8mare

Basel said:


> It will also use radar too and it will be part of NCW environment so guidance is not a big issue, and your Mig-29Ks will have to run for their money to save your CBG as* there is no air defense missile in IN which can hit more then 180 to 220 kms *(safe distance to launch AShM) and PAF will be in luxury to launch Ra'ad from 280 km away and CM-400AKG from 200 km away while they will be able to protect them too and IN will have to relie on Mig-29Ks as they will be very far from Indian coast. Also remember that IN will keep distance from Pakistani coast as PN's coastal defense batteries can hit very long at sea backed by FACs. PN may not be able to go on offensive on Indian assets at coasts but they can defend their sea lines and coast line.



A Longer ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister
He also confirmed that a new Long ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board, which is likely be a *spin off our ABM technology .*
Dr Avinash Chander Talks about NEW Missiles
*
Advanced Air Defence (AAD)



Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile being launched during Electronic Target Trials on 2 December 2007 from Wheeler's Island Test Range in Odisha.
Type Endoatmospheric Anti-ballisticmissile
Place of origin India
Service history
In service Under development
Manufacturer* DRDO
*Produced* 6 December 2007
*Specifications
Weight* 1,200 kg
*Length* 7.5 m
*Diameter* <0.5 m
*Detonation mechanism*
Kinetic Kill (Hit-to-Kill)
*Engine* Single Stage[19]
*Propellant* Solid fuel
*Flight ceiling *30 km

*SAM operational range = 150-200 km 
Speed* Mach 4.5
*Guidance
system*
Inertial Navigation System
Mid-course update
Active radar homing (Terminal phase)
*Launch
platform*
Tatra TEL 8 × 8

manoeuvrability g-limits=between +25 to +30g[20]


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## The Deterrent

@ares PN deploys Harpoon SLCMs on 2xAgosta-70 Submarines. The Block-II purchase is a much recent one, you may want to look it up again.


genmirajborgza786 said:


> View attachment 189592


_Saeen hotay hotay reh gaya tha do dafa_, if you followed the NOTAMs. So hopefully, soon.

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## Jango

The Deterrent said:


> _Saeen hotay hotay reh gaya tha do dafa_, if you followed the NOTAMs. So hopefully, soon.



Are you 110% sure?

I've heard stuff to the contrary.


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## farhan_9909

genmirajborgza786 said:


> View attachment 189592



Saeen,Atleast the NOTAM confirmed that we have something in development with the range of 2500-3000km

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## ares

farhan_9909 said:


> Saeen,Atleast the NOTAM confirmed that we have something in development with the range of 2500-3000km



*Confirmed..how?
*
Last time it Pakistan issued a 2500-3000 Km Nav area warning, it turned out to be 1500 Km Shaheen 2 test.

Pakistan successfully test fires nuclear capable Shaheen-II ballistic missile


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## farhan_9909

ares said:


> *Confirmed..how?
> *
> Last time it Pakistan issued a 2500-3000 Km Nav area warning, it turned out to be 1500 Km Shaheen 2 test.
> 
> Pakistan successfully test fires nuclear capable Shaheen-II ballistic missile



Second NOTAM later mentioned exactly 1700km range,


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## ares

farhan_9909 said:


> Second NOTAM later mentioned exactly 1700km range,



Second Nav area warning was also the same.

New Notam


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## farhan_9909

ares said:


> Second Nav area warning was also the same.
> 
> New Notam



No,it was a different NOTAM with exact range of 1700km and @The Deterrent posted it and exactly tomorrow shaheen II was tested.

i will post it later tonight

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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> *Confirmed..how?
> *
> Last time it Pakistan issued a 2500-3000 Km Nav area warning, it turned out to be 1500 Km Shaheen 2 test.
> 
> Pakistan successfully test fires nuclear capable Shaheen-II ballistic missile

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## Viper0011.

shaheenmissile said:


> Good observation. But whi it can't be missile number 208?



2 represents the Naval version (like type 2 for the Navy, 1 for the initial ATG version), missile number 8.

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## Mutakalim

Imtiaz_Sarwar said:


> Congratulations on this missile test. Some body posted that the speed of this missile is 0.7 to 0.8 mach. Isn't it slow. Can an anti aircraft hit it ?


difficult part is detection. If it is detected it can be easily gunned down.


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## The Deterrent

Jango said:


> Are you 110% sure?
> 
> I've heard stuff to the contrary.


More than that.

You heard it wrong, I'm afraid.


ares said:


> *Confirmed..how?
> *
> Last time it Pakistan issued a 2500-3000 Km Nav area warning, it turned out to be 1500 Km Shaheen 2 test.
> 
> Pakistan successfully test fires nuclear capable Shaheen-II ballistic missile



_O bhai maan jaya karo hamari bhi_ 


*1. First Notice *(NTM/Securite)* for supposedly new IRBM (Scheduled for 06-07 Nov):*


> SECURITE
> 
> 310909 UTC OCT 2014
> 
> NAVAREA NINE (.) 298 (.) ARABIAN SEA (.) PAKISTAN (.)
> CHARTS BA 4071 AND 4705 (.)
> 
> 2. MISSILE FIRING WILL BE CARRIED OUT BETWEEN 0400 TO
> 0700 UTC ON *07 AND 08 NOV 14* IN AREA BOUNDED BY FOLLOWING
> COORDINATES:
> 
> A. (1) 23-29.57N 065-18.45E
> (2) 23-22.02N 065-33.60E
> (3) 22-34.59N 065-04.46E
> (4) 22-42.68N 064-49.01E
> 
> B. (1) 06-24.69N 055-40.54E
> (2) 06-13.80N 055-59.49E
> (3) 05-27.12N 055-32.11E
> (4) 05-37.90N 055-13.29E
> 
> *ALTITUDE 692000 METRES*
> 
> 3. SHIPS AND CRAFT ARE TO KEEP WELL CLEAR AND NOT TO
> ENTER ASSIGNED DANGER AREA ON ABVOE SPECIFIED DATES AND TIME (.)
> 
> 4. CANCEL THIS MESSAGE ON 080900 UTC NOV 14.




*2. Second Notice *(NOTAM)* for supposedly new IRBM (Scheduled for 29-30 Nov):*


> DTG 24103 Z ROUTINE
> FROM NAVAREA VII CO-ORDINATOR UNCLAS
> TO NAVAREA VII – 626
> ----------------------------------------------------------------- ARABIAN SEA (.) CHARTS INT 71 INT 72 (.) REFER TO NAVAREA IX MESAGE 324 (.)
> MISILE FIRING AT* 692000 METRES HEIGHT* SCHEDULED BETWEN 040 TO 070 UTC ON* 29
> AND 30 NOV 14* IN AREA BOUNDED BY
> (A) 04-17.75N 054-48.52E (B) 04-06.92N 05-07.32E
> (C) 03-18.73N 054-43.6E (D) 03-29.40N 054-24.21E2.
> 
> VESELS TO KEP CLEAR OF DANGER AREA
> 3. CANCEL THIS MSG 3090 UTC NOV 14
> 24103 Z/ NOV



As you can see, both notices indicated towards the same new system (being referred to as Shaheen-III) having 692km altitude and ~2750km range.


*3. Notice *(NTM/Securite)* for Shaheen-II (Conducted on 13 Nov):*


> SECURITE
> 
> 111215 UTC NOV 2014
> 
> 
> NAVAREA NINE (.) 306 (.) ARABIAN SEA (.) PAKISTAN (.) CHARTS PAK 33,
> 58 (INT 7019) BA 4071 AND 4705 (.)
> 
> 2. MISSILE FIRING WILL BE CARRIED OUT BETWEEN 0600 TO 0900 UTC ON
> *13 AND 14 NOV 2014* IN AREA BOUNDED BY FOLLOWING COORDINATES:
> 
> A. (1) 25-10.63N 066-21.24E
> (2) 25-02.31N 066-36.83E
> (3) 24-16.71N 066-04.30E
> (4) 24-25.03N 065-49.03E
> 
> 
> 
> B. (1) 14-40.15N 059-26.80E
> (2) 14-29.64N 059-46.29E
> (3) 13-43.56N 059-16.77E
> (4) 13-54.61N 058-56.74E
> 
> 
> *ALTITUDE 436000 METRES*
> 
> 3. SHIPS AND CRAFT ARE TO KEEP WELL CLEAR AND NOT TO ENTER ASSIGNED
> DANGER AREA ON ABOVE SPECIFIED DATES AND TIME (.)
> 
> 4. CANCEL THIS MESSAGE ON 141100 UTC NOV 2014.
> 
> 5.CANCEL NAVAREA NINE WARNING 302 OF 2014




*4. Notice *(NOTAM)* for Shaheen-IA (Conducted on 17 Nov):*


> *A1869/14* - DUE TO LONG/INTERMEDIATE RANGE MISSILE FRNG TEST BY PAKISTAN WI AREA BOUNDED BY COORD: 254500N 0661940E 251622.8N 0671031.6E 171331.6N 0614732.5E 174125.1N 0605859.8E 254500N 0661940E NO OVERFLYING ACT PERMITTED IN MUMBAI FIR WI ABV MENTIONED AREA. THE FLW ATS ROUTES ARE NOT AVBL 1. L301 BTN LADOT AND RASKI 2. N571 BTN DOGET AND PARAR 3. P574 BTN BOLIS AND TOTOX 4. N563 BTN KATBI AND REXOD 5. M300 BTN KADOL AND LOTAV 6. P570 BTN LATEB AND KITAL 7. L894 BTN BOLUR AND KITAL 8. L516 BTN IBVUB AND KITAL 9. T208 BTN BOLUR AND ASPUX. GND/MSL - UNL, BTN 0400-0700 DLY, *17 NOV 04:00 2014 UNTIL 19 NOV 07:00 2014*. CREATED: 07 NOV 11:54 2014

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## ares

The Deterrent said:


> More than that.
> 
> You heard it wrong, I'm afraid.
> 
> 
> _O bhai maan jaya karo hamari bhi_
> 
> 1. First Notice (NTM/Securite) for supposedly new IRBM (Scheduled for 06-07 Nov):
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Second Notice (NOTAM) for supposedly new IRBM (Scheduled for 29-30 Nov):
> 
> 
> 
> *As you can see, both notices indicated towards the same new system (being referred to as Shaheen-III) having 692km altitude and ~2750km range.*




Which is exactly what I am referring too, both NOTAM indicated 2750 Km range.

but after the first NOTAM Pakistan ended up firing 1500Km range Shaheen 2 missile and nothing really happened after the second one.


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## The Deterrent

ares said:


> Which is exactly what I am referring too, both NOTAM indicated 2750 Km range.
> 
> but after the first NOTAM Pakistan ended up firing 1500Km range Shaheen 2 missile and nothing really happened after the second one.


Err no, I have edited the post, take a look at it again. Both of them were _cancelled._ Separate NOTAM was issued for Shaheen-II for a separate date, explicitly detailing its range to be 1500km (later verified in the press release).

Are you suggesting that Pakistan simply cordoned off parts of International Waters and actually had nothing to show for? Really?

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> difficult part is detection. If it is detected it can be easily gunned down.


Thank you for your reply. Today USA is experimenting with laser guns. These can blow a hole in metal with the speed of light (300000 km/s). I hope our military leaders are aware of it. If India gets it's hands on this technology, Pakistan will be in big trouble.


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## A2Z

350 km range seems to be fine if Pakistan can increase the range of this missile and make it supersonic if not hyper-sonic then is missile would become even deadlier. No doubt terrain hugging capability is the quality that makes Ra'ad stand out.



Imtiaz_Sarwar said:


> Thank you for your reply. Today USA is experimenting with laser guns. These can blow a hole in metal with the speed of light (300000 km/s). I hope our military leaders are aware of it. If India gets it's hands on this technology, Pakistan will be in big trouble


Source?


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## Mutakalim

Imtiaz_Sarwar said:


> Thank you for your reply. Today USA is experimenting with laser guns. These can blow a hole in metal with the speed of light (300000 km/s). I hope our military leaders are aware of it. If India gets it's hands on this technology, Pakistan will be in big trouble.


Laser guns are in experimental stages even in USA. So probability of their induction is limited for india in near future.


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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> But you don't have Tom hawk. And Tom hawk is not successful against any moving target, unless there is a dedicated military satellite/ or ground intelligence to update its data per micro seconds. At sea, the scenario becomes worst.
> 
> And you will launch a UAV which will fly near Indian CBG like freely? Come on, be realistic.



Indian are living in fools heaven, its good for Pakistan because in case of war they will never realize how Pakistan struck them hard at sea, because Pakistan can defend its coasts and sea lines.

These type of UAVs are very potent threat and not easy to detect and engage as they are very small and can fly low to avoid engagement.

Boeing: ScanEagle Unmanned Aerial Vehicle



45'22' said:


> The EL/M-2248 MF-STAR onboard the kolkata class destroyer has a range of 350km
> the long range radars of vikramaditya has 500km surveillance range
> 
> The Close in weapons system can kill the missiles at 1500m range in 5.5 sec
> The Barak can kill the fighters
> the AC's can fry the electronics within its surveillance range
> Kamov Ka31 can kill the subs
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???



Detecting does not mean you can engage them, can IN engage targets above 150km range with out help of Mig-29Ks? Specially if they want to block Gawadar which is very far from land based air bases and protected by many PAF air bases??


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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> Indian are living in fools heaven, its good for Pakistan because in case of war they will never realize how Pakistan struck them hard at sea, because Pakistan can defend its coasts and sea lines.
> 
> These type of UAVs are very potent threat and not easy to detect and engage as they are very small and can fly low to avoid engagement.
> 
> Boeing: ScanEagle Unmanned Aerial Vehicle



There is nothing which is not detectable, even F117 flying at FL500 is detectable, the signature is low. From where are you going to launch a UAV, from Karachi? Come on man.

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## Basel

Abingdonboy said:


> Not a major concern, the EL/M-2248 MF-STARs onboard the IN's Aircraft carriers and escorts have a detection range in excess of 300KM and if we bring in the CBG's BARCAP with the IN's MiG-29Ks the JF-17 and Mirages hardly pose a serious threat



Your radar can detect at long range but can't engage at those ranges and there are tactics to fool radars if you know how these ops are done, and JF-17 have more then enough fire power and support to make Mig-29s run for their money, please try to block Gawadar port and then you will learn the lesson hard way.



Screambowl said:


> There is nothing which is not detectable, even F117 flying at FL500 is detectable, the signature is low. From where are you going to launch a UAV, from Karachi? Come on man.



There are many assets from which PN can launch UAV like those MRTPs are very portent stealthy platforms for recce and other ops.

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> There are many assets from which PN can launch UAV like those MRTPs are very portent stealthy platforms for recce and other ops.



So you are saying, that IN will not be able to detect PN ships while PN ships will launch Cruise Missile, UAV and kill all IN ships? 
Ever heard of network centric warfare?

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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> What do you think how many ships present in Indian CBG? And of which class??
> 
> There would be any sub surface vessel inside CBG incuding SSN and SSK?
> 
> What would be role of MF-STAR , Barak and Shatil? How many fleet capable SAM exist in a whole CBG?
> 
> What would be the role of mig-29k, kamov 31 and 28?



And you think that PN don't have those kind of assets?? PN is small and don't have ACC or N Sub but they have all necessary equipment to avoid blockade of sea ports in future, they have learned the lesson hard way so they will make no mistakes now, PN have all stuff available as per their doctrine.



Screambowl said:


> So you are saying, that IN will not be able to detect PN ships while PN ships will launch Cruise Missile, UAV and kill all IN ships?
> Ever heard of network centric warfare?



When I said that?? detection does not mean you have weapons to engange or radars can't be fooled or jammed, PAF AWACS are there to find sea and air based target at 450 km range and please don't bring NCW here as PN is also fully NCW capable now all 03 forces are now NCW capable and linked with each other for joint ops.

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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Imran Pakistan was working on ICBM even before India after 2001 but because of US threatening to Mush regime over Pakistan Nuclear Program like Libya, Mush regime rollback ICBM project. Pakistan lost in ICBM race @ that time unfortunately because of fear of sanctions.


Sorry bro but we never stopped working on ICBM we are working on them


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## Abingdonboy

Basel said:


> Your radar can detect at long range but can't engage at those ranges and there are tactics to fool radars if you know how these ops are done, and JF-17 have more then enough fire power and support to make Mig-29s run for their money, please try to block Gawadar port and then you will learn the lesson hard way.


I'm sorry but the JF-17 isn't going to make any MiG-29K pilot lose sleep at night. The aerial delivery system (JF-17 and Mirage III) are the weakest points of what you are proposing and until you can address this (not going to happen for a LONG time) then no Indian CBG is going to be all too concerned by these ALCMs.

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> And you think that PN don't have those kind of assets?? PN is small and don't have ACC or N Sub but they have all necessary equipment to avoid blockade of sea ports in future, they have learned the lesson hard way so they will make no mistakes now, PN have all stuff available as per their doctrine.


Now you backtracking from your own statements. 

And what would you think, what would be IN retaliation? Do you going to pour whole AF fleet and Navy against IN?


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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> Now you backtracking from your own statements.
> 
> And what would you think, what would be IN retaliation? Do you going to pour whole AF fleet and Navy against IN?



Your IN is not as mighty as you think, try to send some ships against us after few years and then you will know what PN & PAF combined can do in case of war to defend home land.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> Your radar can detect at long range but can't engage at those ranges and there are tactics to fool radars if you know how these ops are done, and JF-17 have more then enough fire power and support to make Mig-29s run for their money, please try to block Gawadar port and then you will learn the lesson hard way.
> 
> 
> 
> There are many assets from which PN can launch UAV like those MRTPs are very portent stealthy platforms for recce and other ops.


You thinking like when Indian CBG realized that bogeys coming at a distance of 500 KM, still commander of CBG didnt allow MiG to takeoff?



Basel said:


> Your IN is not as mighty as you think, try to send some ships against us after few years and then you will know what PN & PAF combined can do in case of war to defend home land.


Try something? If you have any argument then please share?

Dont defend yourself on a thought that PAF and PN can do anything, and IN remain idle in whole battle. Dont come up with imaginary strike role. Thank You.

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## Basel

ares said:


> No , Pakistan had modified a ship launched cruise missile(Harpoon as per the Americans) into LACM.
> None of the reports indicated that any SLCM had been tested.
> 
> 
> 
> Babur or RAAD are LACMs using Tercom Terrain Contour Matching or DSMAC i.e It uses a pre-recorded contour map of the terrain.
> 
> So far Pakistan has neither fitted a Active radar homing(required to lock on to a moving ship) nor does it have ocean magnetic field maps, required to fly over large water bodies.
> 
> So far Babur/RAAD can not be used as AShCM.



And how you know that Pakistan has not tested these type of systems?? Pakistan tests stuff many Pakistanis can't believe they have tested because we have good friends like China and Turkey. Few months back no one could have believed that Atlay Tank systems could end up in Pakistani tanks but they did.


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## ares

The Deterrent said:


> Err no, I have edited the post, take a look at it again. Both of them were _cancelled._ Separate NOTAM was issued for Shaheen-II for a separate date, explicitly detailing its range to be 1500km (later verified in the press release).
> 
> Are you suggesting that Pakistan simply cordoned off parts of International Waters and actually had nothing to show for? Really?



As we have the benefit of hindsight, we do know there was nothing shown either of the times...or maybe they tested and failed?



Basel said:


> And how you know that Pakistan has not tested these type of systems?? Pakistan tests stuff many Pakistanis can't believe they have tested because we have good friends like China and Turkey. Few months back no one could have believed that Atlay Tank systems could end up in Pakistani tanks but they did.



*How do you know they have?*


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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

A2Z said:


> 350 km range seems to be fine if Pakistan can increase the range of this missile and make it supersonic if not hyper-sonic then is missile would become even deadlier. No doubt terrain hugging capability is the quality that makes Ra'ad stand out.
> 
> 
> Source?


Please search "Laser Weapon System" in Wikipedia and this will give you an introductory information about laser weapons.


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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> You thinking like when Indian CBG realized that bogeys coming at a distance of 500 KM, still commander of CBG didnt allow MiG to takeoff?
> 
> 
> Try something? If you have any argument then please share?
> 
> Dont defend yourself on a thought that PAF and PN can do anything, and IN remain idle in whole battle. Dont come up with imaginary strike role. Thank You.



I don't assume any thing stupid like you people do. PN's main job is to protect coast and sea lines and they can do that against IN, they may not be able to threat all IN ports and coast but they can defend theirs.


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## Malik Alashter

Guys I wonder about the engine is it chinese or Pakistani?.


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## The Deterrent

ares said:


> As we have the benefit of hindsight, we do know there was nothing shown either of the times...or maybe they tested and failed?


Indeed, nothing was shown, but _something concrete_ was planned and aborted. Your argument was that there is no confirmation of any such system in development, but we can assume that initial development of the system is complete and it is about to enter the testing phase. Whether it is an entirely new system or just an improvement over Shaheen-II is a separate topic.
No, missile tests of this scale can't be _hidden._

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> When I said that?? detection does not mean you have weapons to engange or radars can't be fooled or jammed, PAF AWACS are there to find sea and air based target at 450 km range and please don't bring NCW here as PN is also fully NCW capable now all 03 forces are now NCW capable and linked with each other for joint ops.



India is much ahead in network centric and ELNIT warfare than Pakistan. We have much more sophisticated systems on land sea and space than Pakistan. And you are thinking, we will lack all those capabilities, which you just mentioned. Do not forget IN operates its own satellite

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> I don't assume any thing stupid like you people do. PN's main job is to protect coast and sea lines and they can do that against IN, they may not be able to threat all IN ports and coast but they can defend theirs.



Your whole arguments based on imaginary things and strike role, without knowing anything about Indian doctrine.

I tell you first,

In a Indian CBG( after INS Vikrant commissioning) the Indian CBG would be escorted by 2 Kolkata class, 2 P-17A, one Shivalik class, 2 Kamotra, 2 Scorpene sub.

It means around 200 Barak 8 alone, do the calc. of others by yourself. One more thing, the range of land attack version of Block 3 in hi-lo configuration is about 350-400 km, and in hi-hi around 500 Km.

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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> India is much ahead in network centric and ELNIT warfare than Pakistan. We have much more sophisticated systems on land sea and space than Pakistan. And you are thinking, we will lack all those capabilities, which you just mentioned. Do not forget IN operates its own satellite



and how you that India is ahead in NCW tech??? Pakistan also have satellite support from China even if GPS do't work Beidou will work and its just tip of the ice berg so no need to have own satellite now.



kaku1 said:


> Your whole arguments based on imaginary things and strike role, without knowing anything about Indian doctrine.
> 
> I tell you first,
> 
> In a Indian CBG( after INS Vikrant commissioning) the Indian CBG would be escorted by 2 Kolkata class, 2 P-17A, one Shivalik class, 2 Kamotra, 2 Scorpene sub.
> 
> It means around 200 Barak 8 alone, do the calc. of others by yourself. One more thing, the range of land attack version of Block 3 in hi-lo configuration is about 350-400 km, and in hi-hi around 500 Km.



Pakistan knows what IN & IAF will through at them there fore they always planned how to handle it don't worry Pakistani port of Gawadar is built to make sure that sea lines remains open. Its not 1971. Scorpion subs?? please induct them first and till all 6 will arrive PN would have inducted new 6 AIP subs of its own.


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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> and how you that India is ahead in NCW tech??? Pakistan also have satellite support from China even if GPS do't work Beidou will work and its just tip of the ice berg so no need to have own satellite now.


Satellite support is not just used for navigation, it is also used for detection and safe communication. And more over, it is a part of network centric warfare. If hovering above arabian sea, it can take pictures of karachi and your assets and what is being loaded on your vessels, where as your Naval communication is always at brick of being heard from anywhere. That's the difference.

A naval satellite can tell you, when to attack, and when the seas will favor you through meteorological calculations, more precisely. 

It increases the range of awacs, by more than 1000kms. 

That's network centric warfare.

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> and how you that India is ahead in NCW tech??? Pakistan also have satellite support from China even if GPS do't work Beidou will work and its just tip of the ice berg so no need to have own satellite now.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan knows what IN & IAF will through at them there fore they always planned how to handle it don't worry Pakistani port of Gawadar is built to make sure that sea lines remains open. Its not 1971.


Yeah, you know all our secrets and we know nothing. What type of argument is that?

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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> Satellite support is not just used for navigation, it is also used for detection and safe communication. And more over, it is a part of network centric warfare. If hovering above arabian sea, it can take pictures of karachi and your assets and what is being loaded on your vessels, where as your Naval communication is always at brick of being heard from anywhere. That's the difference.
> 
> A naval satellite can tell you, when to attack, and when the seas will favor you through meteorological calculations, more precisely.
> 
> It increases the range of awacs, by more than 1000kms.
> 
> That's network centric warfare.



Just remember what ever China has in terms of Space capability its available to Pakistan and tell me can you match China??



kaku1 said:


> Yeah, you know all our secrets and we know nothing. What type of argument is that?



Did I claim any thing like that? you are the one who is claiming all about Pakistan, I have just told you that we can defend our coast and sea lines and not good in blocking Indian ports and sea lines.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> Just remember what ever China has in terms of Space capability its available to Pakistan and tell me can you match China??


You have no sense what you talking.

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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> You have no sense what you talking.



Basically I do, but you will never understand how deep China and Pakistan are cooperating in different fields since long.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> Just remember what ever China has in terms of Space capability its available to Pakistan and tell me can you match China??
> 
> 
> 
> Did I claim any thing like that? you are the one who is claiming all about Pakistan, I have just told you that we can defend our coast and sea lines and not good in blocking Indian ports and sea lines.


Your whole argument is based on we do that, we grab the tech. from China, China do that, Pak bring down the Indian CBG. Indians dont know anything, but we know all about them, all there secrets, and counter them.



Basel said:


> Basically I do, but you will never understand how deep China and Pakistan are cooperating in different fields since long.


No, I cant. Because there is none, instead of co-operation of Beidu.

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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> Your whole argument is based on we do that, we grab the tech. from China, China do that, Pak bring down the Indian CBG. Indians dont know anything, but we know all about them, all there secrets, and counter them.
> 
> 
> *No, I cant. Because there is none, instead of co-operation of Beidu.*



Please keep believing that and also make Indian military believe the same it will be very beneficial for Pakistan. 

I never said Indian don't know anything although their fan boys really don't have any clue what Pakistan is capable of and what they can do in case IN try to blockade its ports.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> Please keep believing that and also make Indian military believe the same it will be very beneficial for Pakistan.
> 
> I never said Indian don't know anything although their fan boys really don't have any clue what Pakistan is capable of and what they can do in case IN try to blockade its ports.


Believing too much in your naval air arm is also beneficial for India.


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## AUz

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry but the JF-17 isn't going to make any MiG-29K pilot lose sleep at night. The aerial delivery system (JF-17 and Mirage III) are the weakest points of what you are proposing and until you can address this (not going to happen for a LONG time) then no Indian CBG is going to be all too concerned by these ALCMs.



At 350km STAND-OFF range,

JF-17s won't even come close to Migs and vice versa.


Isn't that the whole point? To destroy enemy from where they can't even see you?


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## rockstar08

@Basel no body.... not even United States Navy cant fight the IN Carrier battle group .... let alone the tiny PN 
and i am afraid that in case of War , when i will go to Kemardi , i will see Indian A/C coming towards the port

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## Abingdonboy

AUz said:


> At 350km STAND-OFF range,


Indeed, meaning the JF-17/Mirage has to come within 350KM of the Indian CBG, the BARCAP of MiG-29Ks would be flying many far in front of the CBG to prevent just this kind of attack not to mention the carrier's escorts who too would be deployed in front of the carrier.

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## Mrc

Is it true that indian CBG has a cloaking cloth that makes it invisible to naked eye?

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## 45'22'

Basel said:


> Detecting does not mean you can engage them, can IN engage targets above 150km range *with out help of Mig-29Ks*? Specially if they want to block Gawadar which is very far from land based air bases and protected by many PAF air bases??


Why we won't use Migs


Basel said:


> When I said that?? detection does not mean you have weapons to engange or radars can't be fooled or jammed, *PAF AWACS are there to find sea and air based target at 450 km range *and please don't bring NCW here as PN is also fully NCW capable now all 03 forces are now NCW capable and linked with each other for joint ops.


You comparing Erieye with Phalcon

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> Just remember what ever China has in terms of Space capability its available to Pakistan and tell me can you match China??
> .



Yaar, if you bring this argument, than I can only say, call yourself chinese. Looks like Pakistanis have a bad habit of rolling on superpowers lap.


There are different types of space capabilities, for obviously they will not give you their space capsule, cryo, communication sat, no country does it. Because its their hardwork.

The most you can ask is for navigational purpose, because, Chinese are aware of Indian, Russian and US capabilities, that through Pakistan Indians or US can look inside Chinese satellite, and that will be the major breach of their sensitive communication network.

You lack awareness about network centric warfare.

@Abingdonboy @ares @sancho can give further technical details will Pakistan be allowed to use sensitive chinese military communication network via satellite.


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## 45'22'

Mrc said:


> Is it true that indian CBG has a cloaking cloth that makes it invisible to naked eye?


Running out of counter arguments eh

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## Areesh

Mrc said:


> Is it true that indian CBG has a cloaking cloth that makes it invisible to naked eye?



Yeah RSS has developed this cloak in Banaras.

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## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan tests Ra'ad ALCM*
*




*

Pakistan successfully tested what it described as the "indigenously developed" Ra'ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) on 2 February, according to an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement.

The 4.85 m-long, nuclear-capable Ra'ad was launched from an undisclosed air platform and was the fifth successful test firing to be announced. All previous tests, the most recent of which was on 31 May 2012, were conducted using an upgraded Dassault Mirage III ROSE aircraft.

*The 350 km-range missile enables Pakistan to achieve "strategic standoff capability" on land and at sea, the Pakistan Army said.*

Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, director general of the Strategic Plans Division, described it as a major step towards strengthening Pakistan's full spectrum credible minimum deterrence. This is aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he added.

The test took place two days after India tested a canister-based version of its nuclear-capable Agni 5 missile, which has a range of 5,000 km.

*COMMENT*
IHS Jane's Air Launched Weapons describes the Ra'ad (also known as the Hatf 8 or Hatf VIII) as "part of Pakistan's wide-reaching strategic missile development programme that includes short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles and ground-launched cruise missiles".

*Air Launched Weapons also notes that the Ra'ad bears a resemblance to several proposed South African stand-off weapon projects such as MUPSOW and Torgos, and that Pakistan and South Africa have previously worked together in advanced weapons development.* "Kentron (now Denel) has already supplied its Raptor powered glide bomb to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the extension of that relationship to include more advanced weapons would seem to be a logical step," it notes.

The first Ra'ad test launch was announced on 25 August 2007. It was conducted over the Rawalpindi test range. *Pakistan television footage showed the missile under a Mirage IIIEA ROSE-1 during take-off and in flight. Missile release and engine start were shown, followed by in-flight filming of the missile. *It is not known if this test represented the first flight of the weapon, or was simply a point in an ongoing test programme. A second launch was reported in May 2008, a third in April 2011, and the fourth in May 2012.


Pakistan tests Ra'ad ALCM - IHS Jane's 360

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## Basel

45'22' said:


> Why we won't use Migs
> 
> You comparing Erieye with Phalcon



I was response of your post in which you mentioned capability of SAMs, and also Migs are short leged in terms of range if IN try to blockade from far distance near Yemen.

IN can't deploy Phalcon to block sea lines, whereas PAF will deploy Karakoram Eagles and Erieye to take care of IN.



Screambowl said:


> Yaar, if you bring this argument, than I can only say, call yourself chinese. Looks like Pakistanis have a bad habit of rolling on superpowers lap.
> 
> 
> There are different types of space capabilities, for obviously they will not give you their space capsule, cryo, communication sat, no country does it. Because its their hardwork.
> 
> The most you can ask is for navigational purpose, because, Chinese are aware of Indian, Russian and US capabilities, that through Pakistan Indians or US can look inside Chinese satellite, and that will be the major breach of their sensitive communication network.
> 
> You lack awareness about network centric warfare.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @ares @sancho can give further technical details will Pakistan be allowed to use sensitive chinese military communication network via satellite.



They call us their Israel, this should clear what kind of access Pakistan have. If you think we don't know about NCW then go ask your military if they are potent then they will tell you that US have taught PN about NCW and USN & PN can be linked too, also PN is influenced with US NCW type systems so they are not outdated or old or less advance then any one.


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## 45'22'

Just for the sake of asking
Why can't we use Phalcons


Basel said:


> I was response of your post in which you mentioned capability of SAMs, and also Migs are short leged in terms of range if IN try to blockade from far distance near Yemen.
> 
> IN can't deploy Phalcon to block sea lines, whereas PAF will deploy Karakoram Eagles and Erieye to take care of IN.
> 
> 
> 
> They call us their Israel, this should clear what kind of access Pakistan have. If you think we don't know about NCW then go ask your military if they are potent then they will tell you that US have taught PN about NCW and USN & PN can be linked too, also PN is influenced with US NCW type systems so they are not outdated or old or less advance then any one.

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## AMCA

45'22' said:


> Just for the sake of asking
> Why can't we use Phalcons



Because its not a fair game if we use it

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## Basel

45'22' said:


> Just for the sake of asking
> Why can't we use Phalcons



It will be suicidal to send land based AWACS to support IN near Yemen or Gulf of Aden, IN will have to use Hawk Eye type system for that and it will bring some parity with PAF as both will have similar range although Hawk Eye "D" model is game changer as it can guide BVRs to their targets.

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## AMCA

Basel said:


> It will be suicidal to send land based AWACS to support IN near Yemen or Gulf of Aden, IN will have to use Hawk Eye type system for that and it will bring some parity with PAF as both will have similar range although Hawk Eye "D" model is game changer as it can guide BVRs to their targets.



First let me ask you. How didd you reach at a conclusion that Phalcon is a Land Based AWAC system?

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## Basel

AMCA said:


> First let me ask you. How didd you reach at a conclusion that Phalcon is a Land Based AWAC system?



First tell me how many Phalcon systems IN have? and if any they have, on which carrier based air craft they are mounted on?? IN is looking for Hawk Eye for their carrier based AWACS immediate solutions and all other systems which are with IAF are all land based. Means all air crafts fly from land based bases, please extend knowledge base.

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## Neptune

Basel said:


> And how you know that Pakistan has not tested these type of systems?? Pakistan tests stuff many Pakistanis can't believe they have tested because we have good friends like China and Turkey. Few months back no one could have believed that Atlay Tank systems could end up in Pakistani tanks but they did.



OMG! Any source mate?

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## RAMPAGE

Basel said:


> Few months back no one could have believed that Atlay Tank systems could end up in Pakistani tanks but they did.




You better not be talking out of your arse!

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> They call us their Israel, this should clear what kind of access Pakistan have. If you think we don't know about NCW then go ask your military if they are potent then they will tell you that US have taught PN about NCW and USN & PN can be linked too, also PN is influenced with US NCW type systems so they are not outdated or old or less advance then any one.



Now that's a troll

Israel is self sufficient in a lot of things. More over, jews are serving in top most positions in USA, thats the difference. Pakistan is just Pakistan, more to be precise , Proxy of China. Shameful!
So you agree that in case of war with India, if there is no Chinese help , Pakistan won't be able to stand a week.


What is US NCW type systems? You have access to American Military satellite and chinese Military satellite? Remember how Musharraf's talk to a commander in GHQ was intercepted by RAW? That's NCW.

So you have capability to connect yourself sitting in GHQ with a PN submarine at the east cost of Japan? Well only in 2018, when you get your first RSSS, may be.

Paksat1 (PalplaC) second hand satellite designed by China, of 2nd generation on DHF4 platform is what Pakistan has complete access to. 12C band and 18Ku Band with frequencies in GHz, too high for a military Satellite and Military uses MHz and no one gives this technology to any one. Of course it can be used for tracking, but only if the ground stations are not blown by IN or IAF. 

And then you have to upgrade all your missiles to switch communication channels in microseconds, from satellite, to Vessels, Vessels to sat. You think it's a joke to upgrade all missiles avionics in short time? Crap

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## DRaisinHerald

Horus said:


> Hatf is the standard title for all Pakistan missiles
> Nasr, Raad etc are their INDIVIDUAL titles. Think of Hatf as a surname.



I think Pakistan needs some cool new names for missiles.


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## RAMPAGE

DRaisinHerald said:


> I think Pakistan needs some cool new names for missiles.


My dear boy, what you think is irrelevant!


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## DRaisinHerald

RAMPAGE said:


> My dear boy, what you think is irrelevant!



Just a thought Call me crazy, but while Hatf, Raad and Shaheen are fine, names like Ghauri just make me cringe. I would think it's better to avoid personalities all together.

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## RAMPAGE

DRaisinHerald said:


> Just a thought Call me crazy, but while Hatf, Raad and Shaheen are fine, names like Ghauri just make me cringe. I would think it's better to avoid personalities all together.


Don't look at me. You'll have to convince the _Molee Saab _at the defence industry, charged with naming the equipment. Apparently his idea of_ cool _is very different from yours.

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## Bratva

Screambowl said:


> Yaar, if you bring this argument, than I can only say, call yourself chinese. Looks like Pakistanis have a bad habit of rolling on superpowers lap.
> 
> 
> There are different types of space capabilities, for obviously they will not give you their space capsule, cryo, communication sat, no country does it. Because its their hardwork.
> 
> The most you can ask is for navigational purpose, because, Chinese are aware of Indian, Russian and US capabilities, that through Pakistan Indians or US can look inside Chinese satellite, and that will be the major breach of their sensitive communication network.
> 
> You lack awareness about network centric warfare.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @ares @sancho can give further technical details will Pakistan be allowed to use sensitive chinese military communication network via satellite.



Your lack of awareness about Pakistan NCW is amusing. Strategic Planning Division of Pakistan had signed agreement with chinese in 2012 to use Military grade Beidou signals. Signing ceremony pictures of then SPD DG and Chinese Beidou project director and Military officials are somewhere in this forum.

Last year Pakistan has began to establish Beidou base stations

Pakistan becomes first country to deploy China’s BeiDou GPS network – The Express Tribune

Look up at IDEAS 2014 thread. There are pictures of Pakistani advance NCW system. PA and PAF are in lead in deploying their NCW systems

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## KingMamba

DRaisinHerald said:


> Just a thought Call me crazy, but while Hatf, Raad and Shaheen are fine, names like Ghauri just make me cringe. I would think it's better to avoid personalities all together.



If Pakistan ever makes an ICBM they should call it Qiyamat, because if they ever have to use such a thing in battle it will be Qiyamat.

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## Screambowl

Bratva said:


> Your lack of awareness about Pakistan NCW is amusing. Strategic Planning Division of Pakistan had signed agreement with chinese in 2012 to use Military grade Beidou signals. Signing ceremony pictures of then SPD DG and Chinese Beidou project director and Military officials are somewhere in this forum.
> 
> Last year Pakistan has began to establish Beidou base stations
> 
> Pakistan becomes first country to deploy China’s BeiDou GPS network – The Express Tribune
> 
> Look up at IDEAS 2014 thread. There are pictures of Pakistani advance NCW system. PA and PAF are in lead in deploying their NCW systems



I have mentioned in my previous post that Pakistan uses Military grade frequencies of Chinese satellite for navigation, not for communication or detection. Even GPS provides it. Big Deal?

>> Pakistan Succesful Test Fired Hatf-VIII Ra'ad ALCM | Page 22

Pakistan Succesful Test Fired Hatf-VIII Ra'ad ALCM | Page 21


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## Bratva

Screambowl said:


> I have mentioned in my previous post that Pakistan uses Military grade frequencies of Chinese satellite for navigation, not for communication or detection. Even GPS provides it. Big Deal?
> 
> >> Pakistan Succesful Test Fired Hatf-VIII Ra'ad ALCM | Page 22
> 
> Pakistan Succesful Test Fired Hatf-VIII Ra'ad ALCM | Page 21



How do you know Pakistan doesnot use Beidou for communication ?


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## Ultima Thule

Bratva said:


> How do you know Pakistan doesnot use Beidou for communication ?


just their wishful thinking and assumption, and pakistani must tell Mr screambowl what it have


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## Screambowl

Bratva said:


> How do you know Pakistan doesnot use Beidou for communication ?


Because military communication uses frequency bands in Hz max in 1-2 KHz and for better relay, in few MHz and even lower so that radio silence is partially maintained for naval usage submarines, otherwise source of any radio wave would be detected and intercepted. hence a Satellite plays the major role for this. There is no facility in Pakistan for this for generating such waves, so they commonly use VHF UHF, which are interceptable at sea.

Secondly the satellite communication is used for long distances, like from Brigade (Mobile backbone nodes) on field or fleet at sea to GHQ in Islamabad only for voice comm. only. Chinese would not want Pakistan to use their tech for this purpose, due to possible Indian, Russian or US , middle man type of attack on their satellite in case of war. That will breach chinese security network also.

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## Supply&Demand

Screambowl said:


> Because military communication uses frequency bands in Hz max in 1-2 KHz and for better relay, in few MHz and even lower so that radio silence is partially maintained for naval usage submarines, otherwise source of any radio wave would be detected and intercepted. hence a Satellite plays the major role for this. There is no facility in Pakistan for this for generating such waves, so they commonly use VHF UHF, which are interceptable at sea



Just an offtopic comment: For the last few days, i have been hearing the word '*Roast*' a lot online. Now seeing u take the illogical, trollish and frankly stupid comments made by Pakistanis in the last few pages and then dismantling them one by one is what i call a *ROAST...maan gaye sirjee....!!!!!*

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## Screambowl

pakistanipower said:


> just their wishful thinking and assumption, and pakistani must tell Mr screambowl what it have



I am completely and so does your military is aware.

Most of the HF, VHF and UHF tactical radios were initially designed for voice communication. The data channel was added to support peer to peer data communication. The incorporation of integrated voice and data communication resulted large communication overhead and low bit rates. The networking applications running on bandwidth constrained radios must require low data rates. Typical applications include situational awareness and short message payload service. The situational awareness requires low data rates and is relatively latency tolerant. The situational awareness messages are sent on a regular interval, therefore reliable delivery is not mandatory. *In tactical network,* nodes in a cluster form local MANETs and multicast their current positions and its area of responsibility information in a smaller group and MBN sends this information to the central command and control center.* Predefined messages, symbols and missions are sent to different groups through short message service.*
Since Pakistan does not have this technology to create low frequency waves, the data relay is even slower than VLFW (very low frequency wave)

So after Pak military encodes the data and patch it to their carrier wave that is VHF or UHF frequency, India is also capable to intercept it and most importantly decode it , as we have got better research centres in India, which can use some good mathematics , and power analysis to know what has been encoded.


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## shaheenmissile

Screambowl said:


> Because military communication uses frequency bands in Hz max in 1-2 KHz and for better relay, in few MHz and even lower so that radio silence is partially maintained for naval usage submarines, otherwise source of any radio wave would be detected and intercepted. hence a Satellite plays the major role for this. There is no facility in Pakistan for this for generating such waves, so they commonly use VHF UHF, which are interceptable at sea.
> 
> Secondly the satellite communication is used for long distances, like from Brigade (Mobile backbone nodes) on field or fleet at sea to GHQ in Islamabad only for voice comm. only. Chinese would not want Pakistan to use their tech for this purpose, due to possible Indian, Russian or US , middle man type of attack on their satellite in case of war. That will breach chinese security network also.


Pakistan does not have satellites but have "relay drones" and ground based relay vehicles.
In case of war,these behve as telphone exchange to facilitate secure coms.


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## Screambowl

shaheenmissile said:


> Pakistan does not have satellites but have "relay drones" and ground based relay vehicles.
> In case of war,these behve as telphone exchange to facilitate secure coms.


Pakistan does use PakSat 1 but it's on old platform outdated one. Not matching the current needs. 

I already mentioned that, but drones become sitting duck when used for communication purposes. Because, the frequency they operate in are UHF, or CDMA


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## AMCA

Basel said:


> First tell me how many Phalcon systems IN have? and if any they have, on which carrier based air craft they are mounted on?? IN is looking for Hawk Eye for their carrier based AWACS immediate solutions and all other systems which are with IAF are all land based. Means all air crafts fly from land based bases, please extend knowledge base.



Not denying Indian Navy does not have Phalcon System but Indian Air force has it ready to deploy. It should not come to you as a surprise that it can refuel mid air and that it does not need to fly over the hostile area to provide support. Our Armed forces are moving towards 21st century warfare and effective Interoperability is its crisp.


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## A.Rafay

Routine answer to India. Looks like Nasr was not ready.


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## Gryphon

*Pakistan test-fires Hatf 8 cruise missile*

*Doug Richardson, London* - IHS Jane's Missiles & Rockets

03 February 2015

Pakistan conducted a successful flight test of its indigenously developed Hatf 8 (Ra'ad) air-launched cruise missile on 2 February. The launch was witnessed by Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, the director general of the Pakistan Army's Strategic Plans Division. He described the test as "a major step towards strengthening Pakistan's full spectrum credible minimum deterrence capability".

No details of the trial have been released by Pakistan's Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

The Pakistan military have described the Hatf 8 as being a "low-altitude, terrain-hugging missile with high manoeuvrability", and able to deliver nuclear or conventional warheads with high accuracy. They also credited it with having "stealth capabilities".

(106 of 268 words)

Pakistan test-fires Hatf 8 cruise missile - IHS Jane's 360









*Pakistan tests Ra'ad ALCM*

*Rahul Udoshi, Bangalore and James Hardy, London - *IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

02 February 2015






_Pakistan test-fired its Ra'ad (Haatf 8) air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) on 2 February, according to an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement. Source: ISPR_

Pakistan successfully tested what it described as the "indigenously developed" Ra'ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) on 2 February, according to an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement.

The 4.85 m-long, nuclear-capable Ra'ad was launched from an undisclosed air platform and was the fifth successful test firing to be announced. All previous tests, the most recent of which was on 31 May 2012, were conducted using an upgraded Dassault Mirage III ROSE aircraft.

The 350 km-range missile enables Pakistan to achieve "strategic standoff capability" on land and at sea, the Pakistan Army said.

Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, director general of the Strategic Plans Division, described it as a major step towards strengthening Pakistan's full spectrum credible minimum deterrence. This is aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he added.

The test took place two days after India tested a canister-based version of its nuclear-capable Agni 5 missile, which has a range of 5,000 km.

*COMMENT*
_IHS Jane's Air Launched Weapons_ describes the Ra'ad (also known as the Hatf 8 or Hatf VIII) as "part of Pakistan's wide-reaching strategic missile development programme that includes short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles and ground-launched cruise missiles".

_Air Launched Weapons_ also notes that the Ra'ad bears a resemblance to several proposed South African stand-off weapon projects such as MUPSOW and Torgos, and that Pakistan and South Africa have previously worked together in advanced weapons development. "Kentron (now Denel) has already supplied its Raptor powered glide bomb to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the extension of that relationship to include more advanced weapons would seem to be a logical step," it notes.

The first Ra'ad test launch was announced on 25 August 2007. It was conducted over the Rawalpindi test range. Pakistan television footage showed the missile under a Mirage IIIEA ROSE-1 during take-off and in flight. Missile release and engine start were shown, followed by in-flight filming of the missile. It is not known if this test represented the first flight of the weapon, or was simply a point in an ongoing test programme. A second launch was reported in May 2008, a third in April 2011, and the fourth in May 2012.

(360 words)

Pakistan tests Ra'ad ALCM - IHS Jane's 360






*Pakistan Tests Cruise Missile*

By *Usman Ansari*
February 3, 2015





_A Pakistani nuclear-capable Ra'ad cruise missile is launched from a jet fighter during a test firing.(Photo: AFP via Inter Services Public Relations)_

ISLAMABAD — Monday's test of the Ra'ad air-launched cruise missile may have been designed to check the effectiveness of an upgrade, according to analysts.

The test was announced in a press release by the military's media arm, Inter Services Public Relations. It provided few details, only saying, "Pakistan conducted a successful Flight Test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) Ra'ad."

This test means the Hatf/Vengeance VIII Ra'ad (Thunder) has now been officially tested five times since 2007. It is generally comparable to the Anglo/French Storm Shadow or US AGM-158 joint air-to-surface standoff missile, but exact specifications are not available.

Analyst, author and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail said, "The test firing was a typical combo of a technical upgrade timed with political signaling, something that both India and Pakistan have turned into an art form."

Mansoor Ahmed, lecturer in the Department of Defence and Strategic Studies at Islamabad's Quaid-e-Azam University, who specializes in Pakistan's nuclear program and its delivery systems, said the test was not in answer to India's test-firing of its Agni V intermediate range ballistic missile.

The Agni V was test fired on Saturday.

"I am not sure if this is a tit-for-tat response," he said. "The fact that it is a 350 kilometer vs. a 5,000-8,000 kilometer test reflects Pakistan's emphasis on credible minimum deterrence with only an India-centric posture, while India is clearly moving far beyond the requirements of a minimum deterrent driven by global power projection ambitions."

Instead, he believes the test was part of ongoing efforts on "improving the effectiveness and validating the enhanced operational parameters of existing delivery systems that comprise the country's nascent triad."

He added, "Ra'ad and the land and sea versions of the Babur cruise missiles offer diversification in targeting options, greater operational and deployable flexibility and increase the overall survivability of its deterrent force."

He says the two cruise missiles are especially important for Pakistan's nascent "posture of full spectrum deterrence with added emphasis on counter-value targeting to offset India's strategic and conventional force modernization," which are integral aspects of India's "emerging proactive operations strategy."

Ra'ad is claimed to be operational, but is such a critical weapon it is still somewhat cloaked in secrecy.

Ahmed, however, said Ra'ad may have "finally matured as an operational and deployable system," but "this might also be a batch test coupled with the possible completion/accomplishment of required miniaturization of suitable warheads for this system. Hence this test."

He believes that aside from technical improvements, the timing is significant in terms of its non-conventional strike capabilities.

"Range remains the same; the only thing that might have improved is accuracy, guidance and control parameters, etc. Also this test comes at a time when plutonium production for miniaturized warheads is meeting the operational requirements, with the commissioning of the fourth production reactor at Khushab," he said.

Despite being described as a conventional and non-conventional weapon, analysts like Tufail are unconvinced Ra'ad can effectively be employed by Pakistan in the conventional role.

"Platforms like the Ra'ad have limited use as conventional weapons launching platforms, because a payload of 450-kilograms [at best] can do little harm unless launched in a shower of a few score, something that would be outrageously costly," he said.

"Glide bombs are an economical choice for stand-off delivery of conventional weapons," he added.

Indeed, Pakistan does seem to have made further steps in this regard and showcased the latest of its glide bombs, the Global Industrial Defence Solutions' 'Takbir', at December's IDEAS2014 defense exhibition.

The Ra'ad has been tested on the Mirage III strike aircraft, but it is unknown if it has been integrated onto Pakistan's F-16s.

Tufail said it is more likely the JF-17 will be the next delivery platform.

Pakistan Tests Cruise Missile - Defense News

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## shaheenmissile

Screambowl said:


> Pakistan does use PakSat 1 but it's on old platform outdated one. Not matching the current needs.
> 
> I already mentioned that, but drones become sitting duck when used for communication purposes. Because, the frequency they operate in are UHF, or CDMA


In a war everything is a target and nothing is invincible. You are trying to imply that Indian assets are invincible which is wrong.

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## ni8mare

s


A.Rafay said:


> Routine answer to India. Looks like Nasr was not ready.


stock khatam hoye giya.......


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## Screambowl

shaheenmissile said:


> In a war everything is a target and nothing is invincible. You are trying to imply that Indian assets are invincible which is wrong.


No i am trying to imply that indian reaction time is quicker and india will have advantage over pakistan in dealing with any pakistani adventure at sea. I am no where saing, india will have no threat, but india will have lots of info about its target


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## HRK

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> " but "this might also be a batch test



this seem the more convincing argument as serial number 208 is an indication of this possibility ...



Screambowl said:


> but india will have lots of info about its target



My dear rather to write post after post for this single point you could have simply said "Opponents are Blind, Deaf & Dumb idiots"

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## Shotgunner51

farhan_9909 said:


> Reported by AAJ and SAMAA news
> 
> =======================
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful flight test of the indigenously developed Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) “Ra’ad”, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release.
> 
> The Ra’ad missile, with a range of 350 km, enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea.
> 
> “Cruise Technology” is extremely complex and has been developed by only a few countries in the world. The state of the art Ra’ad Cruise Missile with Stealth Capabilities is a low altitude, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability; can deliver nuclear and conventional warheads with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, while congratulating the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of historic significance, termed it a major step towards strengthening Pakistan’s Full spectrum Credible Minimum Deterrence capability. Pakistan’s strategic pursuits are aimed at achieving strategic stability in the region, he said.
> 
> He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed whole heartedly to make this launch a success.
> 
> He showed his full confidence over operational preparedness of strategic forces including employment and deployment concepts, refinement and training of all ranks in operational and technical domains.
> 
> The successful launch has been commended by President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding achievement.
> 
> Pakistan conducts flight test of Ra'ad - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



Good progress ... congrats ...

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## Screambowl

HRK said:


> My dear rather to write post after post for this single point you could have simply said "Opponents are Blind, Deaf & Dumb idiots"



No, there is a difference between, a deaf blind or dumb opponent and normal opponent. If I say they are dumb and deaf, that means, not easy to detect. Being blind is their weakness. 

A tactical team gets the order in short messages, few kilo bites only, or sends message in kilo bytes. Only when it is necessary, they break radio silence to call for support, when their location is already compromised. 

Pakistan is indeed neither dumb nor deaf. What I am pointing is, India's reaction to an assault will be faster than the assault sent by enemy.


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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> First tell me how many Phalcon systems IN have? and if any they have, on which carrier based air craft they are mounted on?? IN is looking for Hawk Eye for their carrier based AWACS immediate solutions and all other systems which are with IAF are all land based. Means all air crafts fly from land based bases, please extend knowledge base.



IN does not operate Phalcons,those are IAF assets,IN uses deck based Kamovs as AEW&C

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## Basel

RAMPAGE said:


> You better not be talking out of your arse!



It was even in media if you google it.



gslv mk3 said:


> IN does not operate Phalcons,those are IAF assets,IN uses deck based Kamovs as AEW&C



Please tell this to Indian fan boy who think IN has phalcons.



Screambowl said:


> Now that's a troll
> 
> Israel is self sufficient in a lot of things. More over, jews are serving in top most positions in USA, thats the difference. Pakistan is just Pakistan, more to be precise , Proxy of China. Shameful!
> So you agree that in case of war with India, if there is no Chinese help , Pakistan won't be able to stand a week.
> 
> 
> What is US NCW type systems? You have access to American Military satellite and chinese Military satellite? Remember how Musharraf's talk to a commander in GHQ was intercepted by RAW? That's NCW.
> 
> So you have capability to connect yourself sitting in GHQ with a PN submarine at the east cost of Japan? Well only in 2018, when you get your first RSSS, may be.
> 
> Paksat1 (PalplaC) second hand satellite designed by China, of 2nd generation on DHF4 platform is what Pakistan has complete access to. 12C band and 18Ku Band with frequencies in GHz, too high for a military Satellite and Military uses MHz and no one gives this technology to any one. Of course it can be used for tracking, but only if the ground stations are not blown by IN or IAF.
> 
> And then you have to upgrade all your missiles to switch communication channels in microseconds, from satellite, to Vessels, Vessels to sat. You think it's a joke to upgrade all missiles avionics in short time? Crap



If all that crap make you feel happy then please keep it up and what RAW did ISI have also done this type of ops but both agencies just don't share that with public.

I don't know about access to US sats but Chinese have allowed access to stuff US never did that is for sure.


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## RAMPAGE

Basel said:


> It was even in media if you google it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell this to Indian fan boy who think IN has phalcons.
> 
> 
> 
> If all that crap make you feel happy then please keep it up and what RAW did ISI have also done this type of ops but both agencies just don't share that with public.
> 
> I don't know about access to US sats but Chinese have allowed access to stuff US never did that is for sure.


Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen

You talking about this?

It doesn't say anywhere that Altay's systems are being used in Al-Khalid.


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## Basel

AMCA said:


> Not denying Indian Navy does not have Phalcon System but Indian Air force has it ready to deploy. It should not come to you as a surprise that it can refuel mid air and that it does not need to fly over the hostile area to provide support. Our Armed forces are moving towards 21st century warfare and effective Interoperability is its crisp.



If IAF want to deploy its Phalcons to support IN CBG then they also have to sent at least 6 MKIs to escort AWACS & refulers and they will be flying very far where PAF will have leverage to out number them and force them to leave area as it will be not easy to operate in Gulf of Aden or Yemen.



RAMPAGE said:


> Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen
> 
> You talking about this?
> 
> It doesn't say anywhere that Altay's systems are being used in Al-Khalid.



It was even on PDF try to find it, if I did I will post it.


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## RAMPAGE

Basel said:


> If IAF want to deploy its Phalcons to support IN CBG then they also have to sent at least 6 MKIs to escort AWACS & refulers and they will be flying very far where PAF will have leverage to out number them and force them to leave area as it will be not easy to operate in Gulf of Aden or Yemen.
> 
> 
> 
> It was even on PDF try to find it, if I did I will post it.


Take a look at the article posted. It only mentions it as a possibility.


----------



## Basel

RAMPAGE said:


> Take a look at the article posted. It only mentions it as a possibility.



I think it was posted in IDEAS thread.


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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> If all that crap make you feel happy then please keep it up and what RAW did ISI have also done this type of ops but both agencies just don't share that with public.
> 
> I don't know about access to US sats but Chinese have allowed access to stuff US never did that is for sure.



It is not about RAW and ISI. It is about technological platform, used by these agencies and Military. Yes, no doubt ISI has the capability to intercept our UHV VHF radio signals used by tactical mission commands. But That's a very basic level. Plus no one gives codes to run a military level communication channel to a satellite, of course navigation is allowed though.

With the ongoing Integration air command and control , IAF will be far superior in NCW against Pakistan and as equivalent or even better than China. India is quite good in IT, and electronics, combining both will create a huge network and highly secured Cyberspace, like IAF Afnet. Which will give a Mig 29K flying over arabian, or a Destroyer all the info of PAF fighters flying over sindh, 300kms kms away. Whether to engage the PAF or not or let the local area SAM battery be given responsibility to avoid any air combat

More over, with this capability, India would be able to detect all Pak radar installations running on VHF and UHF and send coordinates to Missile regiment in extremly low frequency which is undetectable. Rest of the missiles flight path can be guided by a Mig29K connected via satellite and a CBG, or directly by sat.

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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> It is not about RAW and ISI. It is about technological platform, used by these agencies and Military. Yes, no doubt ISI has the capability to intercept our UHV VHF radio signals used by tactical mission commands. But That's a very basic level. Plus no one gives codes to run a military level communication channel to a satellite, of course navigation is allowed though.
> 
> With the ongoing Integration air command and control , IAF will be far superior in NCW against Pakistan and as equivalent or even better than China. India is quite good in IT, and electronics, combining both will create a huge network and highly secured Cyberspace, like IAF Afnet. Which will give a Mig 29K flying over arabian, or a Destroyer all the info of PAF fighters flying over sindh, 300kms kms away. Whether to engage the PAF or not or let the local area SAM battery be given responsibility to avoid any air combat
> 
> More over, with this capability, India would be able to detect all Pak radar installations running on VHF and UHF and send coordinates to Missile regiment in extremly low frequency which is undetectable. Rest of the missiles flight path can be guided by a Mig29K connected via satellite and a CBG, or directly by sat. The reverse detection will be tough to realize.



And you think Pakistan is sleeping not knowing what India is getting and deploying? Pakistan always take appropriate counter measures which are mostly not publicly announced.


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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> And you think Pakistan is sleeping not knowing what India is getting and deploying? Pakistan always take appropriate counter measures which are mostly *not publicly announced*.



What do we have RAW for then?


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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> What do we have RAW for then?



Our ISI is also very good in going deep in India. both countries have professional intelligence agencies.

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## Screambowl

Basel said:


> Our ISI is also very good in going deep in India. both countries have professional intelligence agencies.



Yes you might be taking details of all such development but in the end, you cannot stop them. Because Pakistan is quite behind in NCW and Pak military knows it. In the end, ISI will ask LeT or JuD, or Dawood, to infilterate some terrorists inside India to sabotage their systems. That's what you can do. Well if they know the tricks, we know the tricks better than them. 

All the way from Nasr Haft to ISI penetrating inside India. Where have you landed up buddy?


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## Basel

Screambowl said:


> Yes you might be taking details of all such development but in the end, you cannot stop them. Because Pakistan is quite behind in NCW and Pak military knows it. In the end, ISI will ask LeT or JuD, or Dawood, to infilterate some terrorists inside India to sabotage their systems. That's what you can do.
> 
> Since now you have failed to understand the technicality of my posts, you are going to bring ISI, nuclear power, Hindu Muslim, riots etc.
> 
> So bye!



If you think Pakistan is far behind in tech of NCW then you should know that PAF was working on system to allow Eri Eye communicating with JF-17 initially using ground based mediator system its not that behind and Pakistan have also developed its own data link system called Rabta to connect fighters with each other and it is developed knowing that NATO standard and Chinese standard systems should be able to communicate with each other.


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## Perseus

Congratulations Pakistan!

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## DRaisinHerald

I think the mods need to remove useless posts from quality threads, such as the 'hona hi tha' on page 1 or those senseless posts by Imran in the earlier few pages @Horus @Oscar


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## shaheenmissile

Screambowl said:


> The point is not about cloning them, the point is about getting the tech and upgrading it which is not available in Pakistan due to lack of research centres and funds. More over, tracking a Mig on a sea will be tough for Pakistan due to no UHV VHF application on and low frequencies are not detectable neither Pakistan has any platform to create or run on low frequencies because that reuires a whole new set of component, ADC, transponders with Vario Capacitance and a new computing system on a missile or a tracking device.


You know nothing.
Too much research is happening in Pakistan on UAVs and radars.
Pakistan exports UAVs to countries like Australia.


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## AUz

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, meaning the JF-17/Mirage has to come within 350KM of the Indian CBG, the BARCAP of MiG-29Ks would be flying many far in front of the CBG to prevent just this kind of attack not to mention the carrier's escorts who too would be deployed in front of the carrier.



Your assumption that it is almost "impossible" to _fire_ Ra'ad at indian CBG is hilarious.

Yeah, the success ratio of Ra'ads against indian target is something completely different however.

Anyways, both nations are in a strategic dead-lock and there isn't going to be any war soon.


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## Asmar Hussain

Perseus said:


> Congratulations Pakistan!


Thanks


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## gslv mk3

AUz said:


> Your assumption that it is almost "impossible" to _fire_ Ra'ad at indian CBG is hilarious.
> 
> Yeah, the success ratio of Ra'ads against indian target is something completely different however.
> 
> Anyways, both nations are in a strategic dead-lock and there isn't going to be any war soon.



Yes,it is impossible.A CBGs primary defense is its air arm-Mig29Ks assisted by AEW&C Kamov Ka-31 presents a formidable threat.This is true with every CBG-that's why china developed an ASBM as 'carrier killer'

Ra'ad is an Anti Ship Cruise Missile ?


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## Mrc

AUz said:


> Your assumption that it is almost "impossible" to _fire_ Ra'ad at indian CBG is hilarious.
> 
> Yeah, the success ratio of Ra'ads against indian target is something completely different however.
> 
> Anyways, both nations are in a strategic dead-lock and there isn't going to be any war soon.




You are forgetting its not a carier...its a supa dupa carier ... u cannot just launch cruise missiles at it....especially on PDF...your brain will be eaten alive...

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## AMCA

Basel said:


> If IAF want to deploy its Phalcons to support IN CBG then they also have to sent at least 6 MKIs to escort AWACS & refulers and they will be flying very far where PAF will have leverage to out number them and force them to leave area as it will be not easy to operate in Gulf of Aden or Yemen..



We dont need to rely on our MKI's for we may as well swing MIG 29 K's into this role, provided we have our CBG available in the Area.

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## black-hawk_101

Will Pakistan going to allow Muslim countries to join this program?


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## AUz

gslv mk3 said:


> *Yes,it is impossible*.A CBGs primary defense is its air arm-Mig29Ks assisted by AEW&C Kamov Ka-31 presents a formidable threat.This is true with every CBG-that's why china developed an ASBM as 'carrier killer'
> 
> Ra'ad is an Anti Ship Cruise Missile ?





yes, sure. 

and india is a super power too while we are at it. 

you indians make me feel pity on you. How gullible.

And no, Ra'ad isn't anti-ship cruise missile. But development on its sea version is ongoing. Therefore you see the mention of "targets at lands and *sea*" in all ISPR publications.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Screambowl said:


> Yes you might be taking details of all such development but in the end, you cannot stop them. Because Pakistan is quite behind in NCW and Pak military knows it. In the end, ISI will ask LeT or JuD, or Dawood, to infilterate some terrorists inside India to sabotage their systems. That's what you can do. Well if they know the tricks, we know the tricks better than them.
> 
> All the way from Nasr Haft to ISI penetrating inside India. Where have you landed up buddy?



no smart agency exposes itself... they usually employ locals to do the dirty work.


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## VelocuR

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will Pakistan going to allow Muslim countries to join this program?


*
No! * These Muslims countries are very complicated, their IQ levels or advanced concepts are pretty much low. Until they stop fighting each other and show more respect toward humanity to eliminate extremisms, autocratic policy, terrorists, and alot of works they need to fix themselves first.



gslv mk3 said:


> Shut up dumb troll.



Control your emotional and must refrain bad words. *

Post Reported*


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## Screambowl

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> no smart agency exposes itself... they usually employ locals to do the dirty work.



what may be the modus operandi. But Pakistan is only left with that solution. But Indians know better tricks to counter it


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Screambowl said:


> what may be the modus operandi. But Pakistan is only left with that solution. But Indians know better tricks to counter it



And yet every other day india whines about ISI? Ironic..

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## haman10

Congrats pakistan

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## RAMPAGE

haman10 said:


> Congrats pakistan


You are at least 7 years late.


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## Screambowl

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And yet every other day india whines about ISI? Ironic..



Whining is like an exponential function... which rises faster than power function


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## haman10

RAMPAGE said:


> You are at least 7 years late.


my bad , i though it was a recent test .


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## haviZsultan

haman10 said:


> my bad , i though it was a recent test .


It was a recent test but we got our first nuke in 1998. India got its own in 1974. Israel too has nuclear weapons. When you are told to give up nuclear weapons you should point that out. Also you should point out that US is sitting on the largest stockpile and is the only nation to have used a nuclear weapon.

Do you believe Iranian diplomacy is weak and Iran is too isolated? For example in the UN neither China or Russia used its veto in defence of tehran when sanctions were being launched. I think what Iran needs badly right now is some friends. 

Also don't worry, some members are grouchy towards mullahcracies so they are a little aggressive. Just ignore them. I would actually say my country behaves as a satellite state for America and yours is a theocracy which makes building relations difficult. But I believe the ummah should unite. Iran was the first country to accept Pakistan as an independent state despite being a neighbor.

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## Menace2Society

haviZsultan said:


> It was a recent test but we got our first nuke in 1998. India got its own in 1974. Israel too has nuclear weapons. When you are told to give up nuclear weapons you should point that out. Also you should point out that US is sitting on the largest stockpile and is the only nation to have used a nuclear weapon.
> 
> Do you believe Iranian diplomacy is weak and Iran is too isolated? For example in the UN neither China or Russia used its veto in defence of tehran when sanctions were being launched. I think what Iran needs badly right now is some friends.
> 
> Also don't worry, some members are grouchy towards mullahcracies so they are a little aggressive. Just ignore them. I would actually say my country behaves as a satellite state for America and yours is a theocracy which makes building relations difficult. But I believe the ummah should unite. Iran was the first country to accept Pakistan as an independent state despite being a neighbor.



I admit to being anti Iranian here in the past however after looking at the situation and re-evaluating my stance I have come to the conclusion Iranians are good people. Whatever has happened in the past has happened.

Pakistan must build friendly relations with their neighbor and look ahead. All effort must be given to this.

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## haman10

haviZsultan said:


> It was a recent test but we got our first nuke in 1998. India got its own in 1974. Israel too has nuclear weapons. When you are told to give up nuclear weapons you should point that out. Also you should point out that US is sitting on the largest stockpile and is the only nation to have used a nuclear weapon.
> 
> Do you believe Iranian diplomacy is weak and Iran is too isolated? For example in the UN neither China or Russia used its veto in defence of tehran when sanctions were being launched. I think what Iran needs badly right now is some friends.
> 
> Also don't worry, some members are grouchy towards mullahcracies so they are a little aggressive. Just ignore them. I would actually say my country behaves as a satellite state for America and yours is a theocracy which makes building relations difficult. But I believe the ummah should unite. Iran was the first country to accept Pakistan as an independent state despite being a neighbor.


well bro , its complicated . we have a famous saying regarding foreign policy from Imam Khomeini the founder of IRI :

"Neither west , nor east !" thats why iran today has an independent foreign policy . after some vetoes by Russians and chinese , they started to ask for favors in return , U know , financial favors , political favors and so forth ...

iran refused to be their puppet , so they retracted all their support to apparently get back on iran . well they did , and we never forget these things .

Also , West offered them lots of things ...... now russia , which is under sanctions right now , is starting to get closer to iran again . well , shame on us if we fall for the same trap again 

we did not make a revolution just to stop being US puppet and start being russia and china's puppet ! we are an independent , progressive nation for god's sake with 7000 yrs of history . 

just remember : there is absolutely no "friend" in foreign policy unless its an ideological one like the almost-failed "umma" concept that you are talking about . let me give you the example of Pakistan-china or Iran-china . like they dumped iran back in 2007 , they can dump you in a matter of seconds as well !!! never rely on any country but yourselves !

thats our slogan .

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## haviZsultan

haman10 said:


> well bro , its complicated . we have a famous saying regarding foreign policy from Imam Khomeini the founder of IRI :
> 
> "Neither west , nor east !" thats why iran today has an independent foreign policy . after some vetoes by Russians and chinese , they started to ask for favors in return , U know , financial favors , political favors and so forth ...
> 
> iran refused to be their puppet , so they retracted all their support to apparently get back on iran . well they did , and we never forget these things .
> 
> Also , West offered them lots of things ...... now russia , which is under sanctions right now , is starting to get closer to iran again . well , shame on us if we fall for the same trap again
> 
> we did not make a revolution just to stop being US puppet and start being russia and china's puppet ! we are an independent , progressive nation for god's sake with 7000 yrs of history .
> 
> just remember : there is absolutely no "friend" in foreign policy unless its an ideological one like the almost-failed "umma" concept that you are talking about . let me give you the example of Pakistan-china or Iran-china . like they dumped iran back in 2007 , they can dump you in a matter of seconds as well !!! never rely on any country but yourselves !
> 
> thats our slogan .



It is perhaps this independence, particularly in foreign policy which I have admired as a 12 year old kid. I have never seen an Iran throughout my life bowing down to anyone, be it a superpower. Stay here and keep posting. The staff and mods here, Hakan and tm are doing a good job of keeping bad posts off. 

You are right and statistics too prove your foreign policy right. Iran in all of the muslim states has the highest research and development spending. the highest in the muslim world. The r&d tends to be very low in muslim countries but Iran is trying to build its planes, missiles and components on its own. Its hard but you are certainly giving it a try. I do think however that we muslims are still 50 years behind from the west. We need to bridge this gap if we are to survive.

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## haman10

haviZsultan said:


> think however that we muslims are still 50 years behind from the west. We need to bridge this gap if we are to survive.


well that again is our fault , instead of working together we are killing each other

Ummah concept is a the most amazing concept ever , if implicated . but we'll never be able to even get close to it , due to the poisonous mentality that has been injected to the brains of our least educated part of society .

Tnx again for your nice comments

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Screambowl said:


> Whining is like an exponential function... which rises faster than power function



Good thing you are aware of your condition.

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## Screambowl

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Good thing you are aware of your condition.


But you are not.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Screambowl said:


> But you are not.



Well now that you mustered the courage to accept your condition... i hope you calm down with the jingoism too... 



haviZsultan said:


> It is perhaps this independence, particularly in foreign policy which I have admired as a 12 year old kid. I have never seen an Iran throughout my life bowing down to anyone, be it a superpower. Stay here and keep posting. The staff and mods here, Hakan and tm are doing a good job of keeping bad posts off.
> 
> You are right and statistics too prove your foreign policy right. Iran in all of the muslim states has the highest research and development spending. the highest in the muslim world. The r&d tends to be very low in muslim countries but Iran is trying to build its planes, missiles and components on its own. Its hard but you are certainly giving it a try. I do think however that we muslims are still 50 years behind from the west. We need to bridge this gap if we are to survive.



Pak had cold tested nukes in 83...

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## Screambowl

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Well now that you mustered the courage to accept your condition... i hope you calm down with the jingoism too...
> ..



Now you are trolling, you failed to counter me with technical details with radars and telemetry. Brought ISI and its adventures in India. Started absurd arguments... well I am not a looser like your failed state. 

If you have any shame left, let's discuss the technical details and counter me with that. But before that Go and read post #351 #358 #342


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Screambowl said:


> Now you are trolling, you failed to counter me with technical details with radars and telemetry. Brought ISI and its adventures in India. Started absurd arguments... well I am not a looser like your failed state.
> 
> If you have any shame left, let's discuss the technical details and counter me with that. But before that Go and read post #351 #358 #342



I failed.. i have no shame? 

Go whine more..


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## Screambowl

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I failed.. i have no shame?
> 
> Go whine more..


 read post #351 #358 #342


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## MastanKhan

Menace2Society said:


> I admit to being anti Iranian here in the past however after looking at the situation and re-evaluating my stance I have come to the conclusion Iranians are good people. Whatever has happened in the past has happened.
> 
> Pakistan must build friendly relations with their neighbor and look ahead. All effort must be given to this.



Hi,

Pakistan must maintain a good relationship with iran but from a distance---. Iranians are indeed good people---wonderful people----I knew and befriended a few Iranian students in college----.

Their problem is that they VISION---. They have no understanding and concept of tactics and tactical maneuvering---they have done too much damage to the cause of Iran by their rhetoric and speech.

The Followers of the Sons of Ali can't even follow the saying of Ali----- " A bird gets trapped by its feathers---A man by His TONGUE "-----.

At times I have wondered----so much damage to the cause of Iran and Islam by the Iranians over the last 36 years for just blasting ou thru their mouths for no good reason----.

And I have thought about it----are these people their own enemies---and if they are---then for what reasons.

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## Basel

AMCA said:


> We dont need to rely on our MKI's for we may as well swing MIG 29 K's into this role, provided we have our CBG available in the Area.



Your current ACC can't accommodate enough jets to protect CBG, conduct escort of Phalcon (Mig-29Ks are short legged in range for that) and strike enemy installations. Phalcon can only be protected by MKIs or Rafael if they are going to be used for IN CBG protection and air control.


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## gslv mk3

Viper0011. said:


> He's out of touch with reality friend. Don't mind him. He doesn't understand that the "supa dupa" carrier is capable of handling even the blue water Navy. It's that one CBG that the entire Chinese and the US navies are concerned with, so mighty!!
> 
> By the way, you forgot to mention that this aircraft carrier is capable of flying way above the SAM coverage, around 80,000 feet and can fly at Mach 2. Mach 2.5 if the jets are not parked on the deck



Shut up troll



Basel said:


> Your current ACC can't accommodate enough jets to protect CBG,



Who said ?30 Mig 29Ks are more than enough



AUz said:


> yes, sure.
> 
> and india is a super power too while we are at it.
> 
> you indians make me feel pity on you. How gullible.
> 
> And no, Ra'ad isn't anti-ship cruise missile. But development on its sea version is ongoing. Therefore you see the mention of "targets at lands and *sea*" in all ISPR publications.



You ran out of arguments ?

Come back when you have tested the Raad AShCM.


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## Viper0011.

gslv mk3 said:


> *Shut up troll*
> Who said ?30 Mig 29Ks are more than enough
> You ran out of arguments ?
> Come back when you have tested the Raad AShCM.



Troll? LOL, the only trolling is done by people like you. You took time off for days as you couldn't support your argument and you now come back and call others names?
How about you tell us how supa dupa invisible your AC really is,,,,,?


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## gslv mk3

Viper0011. said:


> Troll? LOL, the only trolling is done by people like you. You took time off for days as you couldn't support your argument and you now come back and call others names?
> How about you tell us how supa dupa invisible your AC really is,,,,,?



Do you even understand what the argument is about ? Post 221,which you quoted enumerates all the defensive armament on board the carriers except two-The AEW&C Ka 31 and Mig 29 Ks.Yes it would be really really hard for PAF to score a hit.

The aircraft carrying the so called 'carrier killers' would be intercepted long before they can launch the missiles.


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## Viper0011.

gslv mk3 said:


> Do you even understand what the argument is about ? Post 221,which you quoted enumerates all the defensive armament on board the carriers except two-The AEW&C Ka 31 and Mig 29 Ks.Yes it would be really really hard for PAF to score a hit.
> *
> The aircraft carrying the so called 'carrier killers' would be intercepted long before they can launch the missiles*.




If anyone would have anything that gave them 100% confidence in "intercepting" missiles at mach 2+, trust me, I'd be giving you good ratings. But your confidence is based on sheer assumptions. Things on paper provide one direction but reality is usually different. Is the AC well defended? I'd agree with that. Is it 80-100% protected? you and I both know that's not the case....


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## gslv mk3

Viper0011. said:


> If anyone would have anything that gave them 100% confidence in "intercepting" missiles at mach 2+, trust me, I'd be giving you good ratings. But your confidence is based on sheer assumptions. Things on paper provide one direction but reality is usually different. Is the AC well defended? I'd agree with that. Is it 80-100% protected? you and I both know that's not the case....



Its not about intercepting the missiles but intercepting the aircraft carrying the so called 'carrier killers' even before they reach the missile launching range.And then,Barak 8 can intercept Yakhonts.



Viper0011. said:


> Is the AC well defended?



It is.


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## Viper0011.

gslv mk3 said:


> Its not about intercepting the missiles but intercepting the aircraft carrying the so called 'carrier killers' even before they reach the missile launching range.And then,Barak 8 can intercept Yakhonts.



Again, a flawed judgment. You can't detect certain planes as accurately as you'd like to when they are flying like sea-skimming. The PAF is known to fly using the nap of the earth routine. Something you had experience in 65 and 71. Their Mirages fly literally, a few feet above water for strike missions. There is no radar system that can detect such low flights from 100 miles away. That's more than enough range to launch these. Heck, in case of IN and Pakistan, the IN will try to do a blockade of Pakistan, so it'll have to form a circle right outside of the international waters, which is still withing 100+ miles of Karachi. So jets flying from Karachi can fire these missiles within a 5 minutes flight and return back....


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## gslv mk3

Viper0011. said:


> Again, a flawed judgment. You can't detect certain planes as accurately as you'd like to when they are flying like sea-skimming. The PAF is known to fly using the nap of the earth routine. Something you had experience in 65 and 71. Their Mirages fly literally, a few feet above water for strike missions. There is no radar system that can detect such low flights from 100 miles away



The primary defensive means of any CBG is its air wing.There are Mig 29 Ks flying BARCAP as well as Ka 31 AEW&C choppers that would be operating from the Carrier.


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## Viper0011.

gslv mk3 said:


> The primary defensive means of any CBG is its air wing.There are Mig 29 Ks flying BARCAP as well as Ka 31 AEW&C choppers that would be operating from the Carrier.



You can even add rescue boats in there too, which would be operating with people using binoculars. But you'll fail to get ANYONE to guarantee that the Indian AC will detect and take out all incoming threats. That's just how it is. Unlike the USN, your foe is RIGHT next door. Your distance or lack of it, is also your enemy. Its far easier to operate a 300-400 miles away from the enemy and take out its targets. Its much difficult to try to use an AC and protect is all the way when you share close proximity with the enemy. That's the reality. Sorry, you don't like it.


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## gslv mk3

Viper0011. said:


> But you'll fail to get ANYONE to guarantee that the Indian AC will detect and take out all incoming threats. That's just how it is. Unlike the USN, your foe is RIGHT next door. Your distance or lack of it, is also your enemy. Its far easier to operate a 300-400 miles away from the enemy and take out its targets. Its much difficult to try to use an AC and protect is all the way when you share close proximity with the enemy. That's the reality. Sorry, you don't like it.



So you have failed to come up with an argument how those JF 17s would avoid interception by much superior Mig 29Ks operating with AEW&C support and would reach within ~280 kms of the Vikramaditya/Vikrant.Sorry dear,you have lost the argument


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## notorious_eagle

gslv mk3 said:


> *So you have failed to come up with an argument how those JF 17s would avoid interception by much superior Mig 29Ks operating with AEW&C support and would reach within ~280 kms of the Vikramaditya/Vikrant.*Sorry dear,you have lost the argument



PAF Mirage III's avoided detection against the USS Kitty Hawk and zoomed past its flight deck during an exercise in 1997 leaving the Americans speechless. Let me remind you, that a USN CBG is far better trained, equipped and protected than an Indian CBG. PAF has been exercising these tactics for the past 50 years, so the this is nothing new to them. PAF won't be firing just one, but several salvos of missiles to try and overwhelm the CBG's defences. Its a cat and mouse game, PAF will employ its tactics and the IN will deploy counter tactics, than vice versa. Let's pray to God no one ever finds out if PAF can take down an IN Carrier.

On topic, i have my sincere doubts if PAF will employ Raad in AS role. ASM are better options to deal with manoeuvring targets moving at 40 knots.

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## AMCA

Basel said:


> Your current ACC can't accommodate enough jets to protect CBG, conduct escort of Phalcon (Mig-29Ks are short legged in range for that) and strike enemy installations. Phalcon can only be protected by MKIs or Rafael if they are going to be used for IN CBG protection and air control.



CBG is self sustained to counter any attacks.What do you mean by Mig 29 K's are short legged in Range. Who cares for the range when it operates from its Mother Ship and besides 2k is not a bad range when compared to most of the air crafts in your inventory. Gone are the days of Dog-Fight. Our Radars can lock on you even before you could locate us.

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## Basel

gslv mk3 said:


> Do you even understand what the argument is about ? Post 221,which you quoted enumerates* all the defensive armament on board the carriers except two-The AEW&C Ka 31 and Mig 29 Ks.Yes it would be really really hard for PAF to score a hit.*
> 
> The aircraft carrying the so called 'carrier killers' would be intercepted long before they can launch the missiles.



PAF now have all tool and expertise which allows them to go hunting IN ships from safe distance and they have Anti Radiation missiles which will allow them to go after kolkatta class ships.



AMCA said:


> CBG is self sustained to counter any attacks.What do you mean by Mig 29 K's are short legged in Range. Who cares for the range when it operates from its Mother Ship and besides 2k is not a bad range when compared to most of the air crafts in your inventory. Gone are the days of Dog-Fight. Our Radars can lock on you even before you could locate us.



You people just don't have clue of Modern Naval warfare or you just post for troll?? IN knows that to block Pakistani ports they can't do 1971 type blockade due to which new doctrine is to stay away from ports and block sea line in deep water where PN is not good due to small number of surface assets, here air assets and sub surface assets comes into play of PN & PAF and here IN will need more then 30 Mig-29Ks and there range not good if they are operating near Somalia or Yemen or Gulf of Aden.


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## Yasir 99

Echo_419 said:


> Apples & Oranges


janab hamari missile tech aap se advanced hai aap ka Agni iii abh fully developed nahi hua aur shaheen iii is ready to launch with all types of warheads


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## kaykay

Yasir 99 said:


> janab hamari missile tech aap se advanced hai aap ka Agni iii abh fully developed nahi hua aur shaheen iii is ready to launch with all types of warheads


Facepalm!!! Really?? Can you tell me how many times Shaheen-3 has been tested with sources?

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## kurup

Yasir 99 said:


> janab hamari missile tech aap se advanced hai aap ka Agni iii abh fully developed nahi hua aur shaheen iii is ready to launch with all types of warheads



Agni3 is already inducted into service ...... You need to update your knowledge .

OTOH Shaheen 3 has not been even tested once .

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## gslv mk3

notorious_eagle said:


> PAF Mirage III's avoided detection against the USS Kitty Hawk and zoomed past its flight deck during an exercise in 1997 leaving the Americans speechless



source ?



Basel said:


> PAF now have all tool and expertise which allows them to go hunting IN ships from safe distance and they have Anti Radiation missiles which will allow them to go after kolkatta class ships.



Which tools ? Source ?Kolkata class would be a part of the CBG,and again there would be Mig 29Ks on patrol.



Basel said:


> here air assets and sub surface assets comes into play of PN & PAF and here IN will need more then 30 Mig-29Ks and there range not good



You don't have the required number of 'air assets' to deal with both IAF & IN


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## Echo_419

Yasir 99 said:


> janab hamari missile tech aap se advanced hai aap ka Agni iii abh fully developed nahi hua aur shaheen iii is ready to launch with all types of warheads


Phele Into-shintro kar le yaar,tune bada Missile chodni hai


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## Basel

gslv mk3 said:


> source ?
> 
> 
> 
> Which tools ? Source ?Kolkata class would be a part of the CBG,and again there would be Mig 29Ks on patrol.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have the required number of 'air assets' to deal with both IAF & IN



And how you know that we don't have that to handle IAF & IN threat in a defensive & offensive war??


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## notorious_eagle

gslv mk3 said:


> source ?



Inspired Alert
Mirage should be hand over to navy | Page 5

Read Air Cmdr MuradK comments



gslv mk3 said:


> You don't have the required number of 'air assets' to deal with both IAF & IN



The Southern Command is exclusively assigned to carry out AD and AS duties over the coast.


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## PakArmyFTW

It's so rad 

Big achievement! Awesome.


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## DotHeadHunter

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan was just trolling to you guys


Listen Pakistan cover whole india with it,s missiles.Even a nuclear missile with small range is a serious threat to india because pakistan share border with india.So yes they can strike Pakistan with a 5000 km range missile and Pakistan too can deliver nuclear war heads in india even with a 300 km range missile.The purpose is to warn those dotheads about any misadventure with Pakistan.



SrNair said:


> Dude .You should congratulate your nation .
> They did very well that within their capability.


Look this hatred and jealousy will get you where gupta 
Every time you open your mouth you talk non sense anti Pakistan hindutva propaganda.
We can reply to india with a nuclear warhead and that,s all what matters .Pakistanis are wanking here peacefully and there is nothing to be scare from a cow dung powered missile who failed at a test site before


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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> And how you know that we don't have that to handle IAF & IN threat in a defensive & offensive war??



What is the range of those tool which allows them to go hunting IN ships (that are a part of the CBG) from safe distance? What is the range of those Anti Radiation Missiles ?



DotHeadHunter said:


> Listen Pakistan cover whole india with it,s missiles.Even a nuclear missile with small range is a serious threat to india because pakistan share border with india.So yes they can strike Pakistan with a 5000 km range missile and Pakistan too can deliver nuclear war heads in india even with a 300 km range missile.The purpose is to warn those dotheads about any misadventure with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Look this hatred and jealousy will get you where gupta
> Every time you open your mouth you talk non sense anti Pakistan hindutva propaganda.
> We can reply to india with a nuclear warhead and that,s all what matters .Pakistanis are wanking here peacefully and there is nothing to be scare from a cow dung powered missile who failed at a test site before



STFU troll



notorious_eagle said:


> Inspired Alert
> Mirage should be hand over to navy | Page 5
> 
> Read Air Cmdr MuradK comments



There is no other source here,other than the one here PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery - Aviation Art by Group Captain Syed Masood Akhtar Hussaini


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## Basel

gslv mk3 said:


> What is the range of those tool which allows them to go hunting IN ships (that are a part of the CBG) from safe distance? What is the range of those Anti Radiation Missiles ?



The range of anti radiation missiles are classified but they can hit above 100 kms and Ra'ad can be launched from 280 to 300 km distance of CBG (excluding CM-400AKG) where PN & PAF can take on Mig-29Ks as IN's ACC can not launch all of its Mig in case of attack.


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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> The range of anti radiation missiles are classified but they can hit above 100 kms and Ra'ad can be launched from 280 to 300 km distance of CBG (excluding CM-400AKG)



Again 100kms is too less for attacking a frigate/destroyer that is a part of a CBG.Ra'ad isn't and due to its short range would suffer same disadvantage as CM400.And then its subsonic.



Basel said:


> where PN & PAF can take on Mig-29Ks



PAF have to deal with both IAF & Indian Naval air arm PN doesn't have a capable air arm


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## notorious_eagle

gslv mk3 said:


> There is no other source here,other than the one here PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery - Aviation Art by Group Captain Syed Masood Akhtar Hussaini



Read again the posts of Air Cmdr MuradK who served in the PAF for 35 years. You don't need a source because he is the source himself with a very distinguished career.



gslv mk3 said:


> Again 100kms is too less for attacking a frigate/destroyer that is a part of a CBG.Ra'ad isn't and due to its short range would suffer same disadvantage as CM400.And then its subsonic.



Most likely the Harpoon II's or the C-803's will be used as they are more effective in naval strike missions compared to a Cruise Missile. Subsonic is an advantage as discovered after several tests by the USN, the faster the missile the greater its RCS making it easier for the radars to pick it up. A subsonic sea skimming missile is more difficult to track compared to a missile travelling over Mach 2 which needs to fly at a higher altitude and emitting high IR.

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## gslv mk3

notorious_eagle said:


> compared to a *missile travelling over Mach 2 which needs to fly at a higher altitude*



Well,not exactly.


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## kaku1

Yasir 99 said:


> janab hamari missile tech aap se advanced hai aap ka Agni iii abh fully developed nahi hua aur shaheen iii is ready to launch with all types of warheads


Yeah, hamaari to Prithavi 1 bhe ready nahe hue,,, and Pak already tested Saturn V.


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## 13 komaun

DotHeadHunter said:


> Listen Pakistan cover whole india with it,s missiles.Even a nuclear missile with small range is a serious threat to india because pakistan share border with india.So yes they can strike Pakistan with a 5000 km range missile and Pakistan too can deliver nuclear war heads in india even with a 300 km range missile.The purpose is to warn those dotheads about any misadventure with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Look this hatred and jealousy will get you where gupta
> Every time you open your mouth you talk non sense anti Pakistan hindutva propaganda.
> We can reply to india with a nuclear warhead and that,s all what matters .Pakistanis are wanking here peacefully and there is nothing to be scare from a cow dung powered missile who failed at a test site before


we don't need missiles we occupy your rivers which is wore than WMD


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## Basel

notorious_eagle said:


> Read again the posts of Air Cmdr MuradK who served in the PAF for 35 years. You don't need a source because he is the source himself with a very distinguished career.
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely the Harpoon II's or the C-803's will be used as they are more effective in naval strike missions compared to a Cruise Missile. Subsonic is an advantage as discovered after several tests by the USN, the faster the missile the greater its RCS making it easier for the radars to pick it up. A subsonic sea skimming missile is more difficult to track compared to a missile travelling over Mach 2 which needs to fly at a higher altitude and emitting high IR.



What Indians can't digest is that Ra'ad can hit targets at sea with range of 350 km, it is stealthy and subsonic and will be very deadly against any adversary and they can't understand that IAF can't do much for IN if they try to block Gawadar port or sea line near Yemen. PN & PAF combined can keep Gawadar port and sea lines open in a short war of a month or so.

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## DotHeadHunter

gslv mk3 said:


> STFU troll


Butt hurt ?


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## black-hawk_101

Why not Pakistan welcome ME investment.


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## AMCA

Basel said:


> You people just don't have clue of Modern Naval warfare or you just post for troll?? IN knows that to block Pakistani ports they can't do 1971 type blockade due to which new doctrine is to stay away from ports and block sea line in deep water where PN is not good due to small number of surface assets, here air assets and sub surface assets comes into play of PN & PAF and here IN will need more then 30 Mig-29Ks and there range not good if they are operating near Somalia or Yemen or Gulf of Aden.



Oh Please, we have every Idea what modern warfare is. But it can only be fought that way should the opponent be having 21st century warfare capabilities. Now tell me what does Pakistan have in its arsenal that can Stop Indian Navy in a crisis other than luck and the advantage of home?

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## Basel

AMCA said:


> Oh Please, we have every Idea what modern warfare is. But it can only be fought that way should the opponent be having 21st century warfare capabilities. Now tell me what does Pakistan have in its arsenal that can Stop Indian Navy in a crisis other than luck and the advantage of home?



I hope IN & IAF are full of people like you, because if people like you are in charge who needs enemy.


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## AMCA

Basel said:


> I hope IN & IAF are full of people like you, because if people like you are in charge who needs enemy.



Arrey bhai!! You and I are internet warriors who have nothing better to do than what we are best at doing... Kyon taang ladathe ho yar!!!


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## Basel

AMCA said:


> Arrey bhai!! You and I are internet warriors who have nothing better to do than what we are best at doing... Kyon taang ladathe ho yar!!!



Do you have any type of defense related back ground? have you even worked for few months in a defense organization even as a civilian??


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## AMCA

Basel said:


> Do you have any type of defense related back ground? have you even worked for few months in a defense organization even as a civilian??



I dont to be frank!! But that does not mean I dont do my research.


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## Basel

AMCA said:


> I dont to be frank!! But that does not mean I dont do my research.



Doing research is good, but if one has worked in MoD or any other department related to it even as a Civilian he/she understands military issues much better about his/her country.


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## AMCA

Basel said:


> Doing research is good, but if one has worked in MoD or any other department related to it even as a Civilian he/she understands military issues much better about his/her country.



True, but if that were the case a forum for debate is not required at all.


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## gslv mk3

DotHeadHunter said:


> Butt hurt ?



You are.



Basel said:


> What Indians can't digest is that Ra'ad can hit targets at sea with range of 350 km, it is stealthy and subsonic and will be very deadly against any adversary and they can't understand that IAF can't do much for IN if they try to block Gawadar port or sea line near Yemen. PN & PAF combined can keep Gawadar port and sea lines open in a short war of a month or so.



1.Raad isnt an Anti Ship CM,Pakistan is yet to develop such a missile.
2.The so called stealth characterstics are common to all AshCMs
3.Subsonic will prove to be a disadvantage
4.PAFs delivery systems cannot match INs Mig 29 K flying with AEW&C support.
5.IAF too have a maritime strike squadron to keep PN at bay.


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