# IAEA, Hypocrisy and Israeli Nukes.



## Kompromat

Hi all.

IAEA and its former head Muhammad al baradiye have been the centerpieces of Iran's Nuclear issue in last few years.

Iran a country which denies any Nuclear ambitions has been criticized by western powers fuled by US and Israel who believe that Iran is making Nuclear weapons aka Another Islamic bomb.

Iran does not posses any Nuclear weapons so far But when someone wants to Talk about Israel's nuclear capability , every effort goes down the drain.

Israel which is believed to have in possession of over 200 warheads is the only nuclear power in ME & indeed a country run by Religious fanatics.







Recently the Israli PM had to pull out of his Planned visit to IAEA summit when they Realized that OIC countries lead by Turkey are planning to bring Israeli Nuclear program to the discussion.

we are told to worry about Iran which is not a nuclear power but when we want to talk about Israeli WMD capability we are told to Shut up.

Doubble standards huh ?


I think it is the Time for IAEA to Bring Israeli Nuclear issue to the discussion & cap its Nuclear capability .

What do you guys suggest ?


IAEA conference criticizes Israel's nuclear program - Washington Times

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## Kompromat

*'World turns blind eye to Israeli nukes' 
By ASSOCIATED PRESS 
11/04/2010 19:10 







Ahead of trip to Washington summit, Erdogan opposes scrutiny of Iran. *

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Sunday said the world was turning a blind eye to Israel's nuclear program, adding that he intended to raise the issue at the nuclear summit in Washington.

Erdogan says Iran's nuclear program was being scrutinized because of its membership in the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) whereas Israel, which has not signed a nonproliferation treaty (NPT), was "free to do what it wants."

Speaking to reporters before his departure for Washington, Erdogan said, "We are disturbed by this and will say so." 

*Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called off his trip to Washington because he believed Turkey and other Muslim nations would turn the issue of Israel's reported nuclear program into the focus of the global summit.*

(Smart one )


Meanwhile on Sunday, US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Israel has much to contribute to this week's nuclear security summit, even though Netanyahu declined to attend.

Clinton said the world's biggest concern on nuclear security was that terrorists would get control of material with which to build atomic bombs. She stressed that Israel can do much to help thwart that.

Israel will be represented at US President Barack Obama's conference by its deputy prime minister.

Clinton's comments were aired in interviews with NBC's "Meet the Press" and ABC's "This Week."

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## Kompromat

US and its allies attacked Iraq & Killed hundered's and Thousands of Innocent Muslims just because their Intelligence reports were positive that Iraq has WMD's.

Now they were dangerous just because they were Muslims , But a Jewish state with WMD's which hasn't signed NPT is allowed to do whatever they want to do.

These are doubble standards of US & it is descrimination against other Nations , If IAEA picks Israel on Nail head , i must say that would be an acchievement.

Everyone knows Israel was supplied Nuclear weapons by US or UK if so then both of them should be known as polifirators.

*" Its OK when we do it !!! "*

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## xenia

Black Blood said:


> *'World turns blind eye to Israeli nukes'
> By ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 11/04/2010 19:10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahead of trip to Washington summit, Erdogan opposes scrutiny of Iran. *
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Sunday said the world was turning a blind eye to Israel's nuclear program, adding that he intended to raise the issue at the nuclear summit in Washington.
> 
> Erdogan says Iran's nuclear program was being scrutinized because of its membership in the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) whereas Israel, which has not signed a nonproliferation treaty (NPT), was "free to do what it wants."
> 
> Speaking to reporters before his departure for Washington, Erdogan said, "We are disturbed by this and will say so."
> 
> *Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called off his trip to Washington because he believed Turkey and other Muslim nations would turn the issue of Israel's reported nuclear program into the focus of the global summit.*
> 
> (Smart one )
> 
> 
> Meanwhile on Sunday, US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Israel has much to contribute to this week's nuclear security summit, even though Netanyahu declined to attend.
> 
> Clinton said the world's biggest concern on nuclear security was that terrorists would get control of material with which to build atomic bombs. She stressed that Israel can do much to help thwart that.
> 
> Israel will be represented at US President Barack Obama's conference by its deputy prime minister.
> 
> Clinton's comments were aired in interviews with NBC's "Meet the Press" and ABC's "This Week."


i like Erdogan the way he snubs israel..n middle east leaders (including saudi arabia) want the area to be considered a nuclear free zone..bit i dont believe any such thing will happen in near future

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## karan.1970

Black Blood said:


> US and its allies attacked Iraq & Killed hundered's and Thousands of Innocent Muslims just because their Intelligence reports were positive that Iraq has WMD's.
> 
> Now they were dangerous just because they were Muslims , But a Jewish state with WMD's which hasn't signed NPT is allowed to do whatever they want to do.
> 
> These are doubble standards of US & it is descrimination against other Nations , If IAEA picks Israel on Nail head , i must say that would be an acchievement.
> 
> Everyone knows Israel was supplied Nuclear weapons by US or UK if so then both of them should be known as polifirators.
> 
> *" Its OK when we do it !!! "*






Sad but true

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## TruthSeeker

*Israel viewed as world's sixth nuclear power: analysts*

(AFP)  2 days ago

LONDON  Israel, whose prime minister withdrew Friday from next week's US-hosted nuclear summit, is viewed as the sixth country to have acquired nuclear weapons -- a title it has neither denied nor confirmed.

*Analysts at British defence specialists Jane's believe the Jewish state has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, putting them among the more advanced nuclear weapons states and roughly on a par with Britain.*

The London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) estimates Israel has "up to 200" warheads delivered on land-based short-range Jericho 1 and medium-range Jericho 2 missiles.

The Nuclear Threat Initiative, a US advocacy group co-created by Ted Turner, the founder of CNN, puts the figure at 100 to 200.

Israel is the only nuclear power in the Middle East with a programme dating back to the 1950s under Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion.

*It was developed with the help of France and is centred on the Dimona reactor in the southern Negev desert.*

According to Jane's, the Israeli strategic force could be deployed by the Jericho 2 missile, which has a range of up to 4,500 kilometres (2,800 miles), or the five-year-old Jericho 3, which reaches up to 7,800 kilometres.

It is also believed to be able to deploy by air, using F-16 fighter jets, and even by sea through its submarine fleet, providing an opportunity for a second strike if its land systems are attacked.

Israel acquired three diesel-powered Dolphin-class submarines in 1999-2000 which are capable of launching adapted Harpoon cruise missiles fitted with nuclear warheads.

In addition, Jane's says some observers believe Jerusalem has developed tactical nuclear weapons such as landmines and artillery shells.

"Some analysts believe that Israel probably keeps most, if not all, of its nuclear arsenal in an unassembled mode," the latest Jane's briefing says, adding that "fully functional weapons could be completed in a matter of days"

AFP: Israel viewed as world&#39;s sixth nuclear power: analysts

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## Kompromat

@ TruthSeeker.

Now old man your post confirms it and i am gonna need your Honest Personal view about it.

Why NOT Israel ??????

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## Aeon

Black Blood said:


> What do you guys suggest ?



Maybe make this thread into a 'Sticky'? So it doesn't "slide off" from people's minds. That picture seems to be worth a thousand words.

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## Kompromat

^All right , the thread has been made sticky !


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## QWECXZ

It's too late for that. the IAEA has no power to make Israel vanish or even reduce its nukes. 

Israel, an atomic power in the middle east that has never ruled out a nuclear strike on other countries if need be for her survival, is supported by the sole nuclear criminal of the world, which is in possess of approximately 2000 warheads. and guess what? both claim Iran's nuclear program which has never been proved harmful causes instability for the region while they've used and are still using depleted uranium bombs in Iraq and the gaza strip!!!

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## T-Rex

Black Blood said:


> US and its allies attacked Iraq & Killed hundered's and Thousands of Innocent Muslims just because their Intelligence reports were positive that Iraq has WMD's.
> 
> Now they were dangerous just because they were Muslims , But a Jewish state with WMD's which hasn't signed NPT is allowed to do whatever they want to do.
> 
> These are doubble standards of US & it is descrimination against other Nations , If IAEA picks Israel on Nail head , i must say that would be an acchievement.
> 
> Everyone knows Israel was supplied Nuclear weapons by US or UK if so then both of them should be known as polifirators.
> 
> *" Its OK when we do it !!! "*



The actual goal of IAEA is to allow uncle sam and its allies like Israel to possess WMD and prevent Muslim states from acquiring any deterrent capability. The talk of a nuke free world is just hogwash! Pakistan's nukes are seen as a great threat but India's and Israel's nukes are seen as harmless. Now one can go around playing with words about it but that is the hard fact.

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## FreekiN

Check out this comic I found.



Moral of the story: The Middle-East is frucked.

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## Kompromat



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## T-Rex

FreekiN said:


> Check out this comic I found.
> 
> 
> 
> Moral of the story: The Middle-East is frucked.



A very good summary of the world situation! Just to prove the Holy Qur'an wrong the anglo-Americans have gone this far! Their hatred for Islam is monumental; for quite some time it was well disguised but nowadays it's pretty clear everywhere.
Some sugar-coated words or rhetorics by the American politicians cannot hide it anymore.


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## SekrutYakhni

More than 10 percent (conservative guess) of your computer's software and hardware are the inventions of Jews. The financial sector, defence etc 
Why should IAEA deal with Israeli Nukes?
World without Israel will have irreversible affects because they are very strong.
Why does the U.S. listen to Israel and not Palestine?
Beggars are not choosers.

Why does EU, the U.S., Russia etc have more sympathizes with Israel than any other country?
What are we missing?

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## T-Rex

saad445566 said:


> More than 10 percent (conservative guess) of your computer's software and hardware are the inventions of Jews. The financial sector, defence etc
> Why should IAEA deal with Israeli Nukes?
> World without Israel will have irreversible affects because they are very strong.
> Why does the U.S. listen to Israel and not Palestine?
> Beggars are not choosers.
> 
> Why does EU, the U.S., Russia etc have more sympathizes with Israel than any other country?
> What are we missing?



We are missing leadership like Ayatullah Khomeni, that is what we're missing. What we have are Mubarak and Karzai.

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## Kompromat

^ You forgot Zardari and Mujib


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## SekrutYakhni

We need to improve everything from education to defence.


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## T-Rex

Black Blood said:


> ^ You forgot Zardari and Mujib



I did not mention Mr. Ten Percent because I don't want to be the target of the present Pakistani government. I did not mention the other because he's dead.


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## Kompromat

*'World should focus on Israel's nukes' 
Wed, 19 May 2010 02:19:08 GMT*



Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan says the dispute over Iran's nuclear program has been resolved and the international community should focus on Israel now. 

"In fact, there is no nuclear weapon in Iran now but Israel, which is also located in our region, possesses nuclear arms. Turkey is the same distance from both of them," Turkey's Star newspaper quoted Erdogan as saying on Tuesday. 

"What has the international community said against Israel so far? Is this the superiority of law or the law of superiors?" he added. 

Most experts estimate that Israel has between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads, largely based on information leaked to the Sunday Times newspaper in the 1980s by Mordechai Vanunu, a former worker at the Israel's Dimona nuclear reactor. 

Israel, which has started several wars in the region in its 60-year history of occupation, maintains a policy of deliberate ambiguity over its nuclear weapons program and does not allow international inspectors to visit its nuclear sites. 

MGH/HGL

'World should focus on Israel's nukes'


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## T-Rex

Black Blood said:


> *'World should focus on Israel's nukes'
> Wed, 19 May 2010 02:19:08 GMT*
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan says the dispute over Iran's nuclear program has been resolved and the international community should focus on Israel now.
> 
> "In fact, there is no nuclear weapon in Iran now but Israel, which is also located in our region, possesses nuclear arms. Turkey is the same distance from both of them," Turkey's Star newspaper quoted Erdogan as saying on Tuesday.
> 
> "What has the international community said against Israel so far? Is this the superiority of law or the law of superiors?" he added.
> 
> Most experts estimate that Israel has between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads, largely based on information leaked to the Sunday Times newspaper in the 1980s by Mordechai Vanunu, a former worker at the Israel's Dimona nuclear reactor.
> 
> Israel, which has started several wars in the region in its 60-year history of occupation, maintains a policy of deliberate ambiguity over its nuclear weapons program and does not allow international inspectors to visit its nuclear sites. The American double standard is there for all to see and realise what the Great Satan stands for.
> 
> MGH/HGL
> 
> 'World should focus on Israel's nukes'



The US, as usual, will defend the Israeli nukes by saying that Israel is not a signatory of the NPT. However, it cannot justify why there is no pressure on Israel to sign the NPT while it is bent on forcing the Muslim states to sign the NPT.


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## Kompromat

*IAEA meeting to discuss Israel*









> Israel is widely believed to have nuclear weapons but has never confirmed or denied it [AFP]



The United Nations nuclear agency is expected to discuss Israel's nuclear capabilities at its board of governors meeting in the Austrian capital, Vienna.

It is the first time since 1991 that Israel's nuclear issue is included in the five-day meeting of the International Atomic Engery Agency (IAEA), which began on Monday.

Al Jazeera's Alan Fisher, reporting from Vienna, said an 18-country bloc led by the Arab nations had been pushing for the discussion.

"It's regarded as a bit of a coup that they managed after 19 years of trying to get a discussion about Israel's nuclear capability," he said.

"It's on the agenda and will be discussed at some point during the next two or three days."

Israel, widely believed to have nuclear weapons, has neither denied or acknowledged the claim.


*Iran reaction*

Iran, which itself is under scrutinity from the IAEA over its nuclear programme, welcomed the coming discussion.

"US, Canada and European Union preferred not to discuss Israel's nuclear capability, but they joined the consensus because they had no other choice," Ali Asghar Soltanieh, Iran's ambassador to the IAEA, said.


Yukiya Amano, the IAEA director-general, recently asked member states for ideas on how to persuade Israel to join the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and accept IAEA inspections.

On Monday, Amano said he had received replies from 17 governments out of a total 151 so far.

Meanwhile, Amano deflected Iranian calls for the IAEA to treat Israel's alleged nuclear work with the same scrutiny as it applies to Iran.

But Amano said Tehran's failure to dispel fears over its intentions made it a "special case" and that the agency could not inspect Israel in the same way until Israel signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

"Iran is a special case because, among other things, of the existence of issues related to possible military dimensions to its nuclear programme," Amano said, opening the meeting of the 35-nation board of governors.

Western powers believe Iran's nuclear programme is aimed at producing nuclear weapons, claims which Tehran has repeatedly denied.

Amano also said he was waiting for a response from big powers on a plan for Iran to part with some of its nuclear material in return for fuel rods for a medical research reactor.

Western officials have made clear that they are unsure about the latest plan, brokered by Turkey and Brazil, which comes eight months after a similar idea to ease nuclear tensions was outlined with the help of the IAEA.

Amano said things had changed since the IAEA made its offer, with Iran starting higher-grade nuclear enrichment and the fact that its low-enriched uranium stockpile had doubled in size.

The UN Security Council is expected to vote on new Iran sanctions this week.

IAEA meeting to discuss Israel - Europe - Al Jazeera English


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## T-Rex

Now the Americans are saying that Israel's nukes are an insurance policy against the possibilty of annihilation. Even in this logic the western double standard is evident, it means that the west is entitled to nuclear insurance against annihilation, treaties and promises are no good for them while the Muslim states have to accept empty words and treaties as insurance policy against annihilation. So it boils down to nuclear blackmail and to sustain that blackmail is the real goal of IAEA and NPT.

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## Optimus

Becuase MAD theory doesnt work with some countries 
MAD == Mutually Assured Destruction - And the world believes in the concept of MAD theory when it comes to nukes


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## Kompromat

Optimus said:


> Becuase MAD theory doesnt work with some countries
> MAD == Mutually Assured Destruction - And the world believes in the concept of MAD theory when it comes to nukes



Well summed up , but the nukes have assured peace time and again dont you think ?


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## tomp

Black Blood said:


> Well summed up , but the nukes have assured peace time and again dont you think ?



And they can, so long as the balance of power is firmly shifted to one side. NATO's. For they hold the nukes already.

If Iran was to gain nuke capabilities, they'd have a bigger mouth in international diplomacy. They'd demand more. There would be more tension, and more chance of actual nuclear war.

Therefore i find the whole debate about "if israel can have nukes, so can iran" academic at best. It may *seem* best if both sides have nukes, but in reality i believe it's best if only 1 side has the nukes.

That way, the balance of power is very clear, and the lesser party (iran) has to comply with some of the wishes of the rulers of the world (the west + israel).


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## Kompromat

tomp said:


> And they can, so long as the balance of power is firmly shifted to one side. NATO's. For they hold the nukes already.
> 
> If Iran was to gain nuke capabilities, they'd have a bigger mouth in international diplomacy. They'd demand more. There would be more tension, and more chance of actual nuclear war.
> 
> Therefore i find the whole debate about "if israel can have nukes, so can iran" academic at best. It may *seem* best if both sides have nukes, but in reality i believe it's best if only 1 side has the nukes.
> 
> That way, the balance of power is very clear, and the lesser party (iran) has to comply with some of the wishes of the rulers of the world (the west + israel).




Just for the record & your peace of Mind - Iran has had Nukes for a while now.


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## NWO

Even if Iran gains only a single nuclear warhead, then it'll stop Israel from attacking. 

The only question is, will Iran develop a nuclear weapon or will Israel attack first?


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## Kompromat

NWO said:


> Even if Iran gains only a single nuclear warhead, then it'll stop Israel from attacking.
> 
> The only question is, will Iran develop a nuclear weapon or will Israel attack first?



We have discussed it heads on - Iran VS Israel in a Nuclear war = Total devastation of Israel because of its Tiny size and saturated Urban population in Til aviv and few other cities.


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## 500

Black Blood said:


> @ TruthSeeker.
> 
> Now old man your post confirms it and i am gonna need your Honest Personal view about it.
> 
> Why NOT Israel ??????


Why NOT Pakistan ?????


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## 500

NWO said:


> Even if Iran gains only a single nuclear warhead, then it'll stop Israel from attacking.
> 
> The only question is, will Iran develop a nuclear weapon or will Israel attack first?


Israel is not interested in attacking Iran. On contrary. In 80-es when Arab world united against Iran Israel was one of very few states who helped Iran.


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## 500

FreekiN said:


> Check out this comic I found.
> 
> http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6770/1272499386602.png
> 
> Moral of the story: The Middle-East is frucked.


This cartoon is so wrong. 

1) Palestinian state was not established because Egypt and Jordan captured their territories.
2) UK armed and helped the Arabs in 1948 war, US was neutral. Only after 1967 war US started helping Israel. 
3) Suicide bombers started only AFTER Israel gave to Palestinians an authonomy in 1993.


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## GentlemanObserver

Never gonna happen!


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## HUD1

At least there are no chances of Israeli nukes falling in hand of terrorist.

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## Kompromat

500 said:


> Why NOT Pakistan ?????



We are Declared Nuclear Power as we have tested them , they ain't hidden away moreover our program is a Direct face breaking response to India's nuclear Program.

You must not forget it was not Pakistan which started the Nuclearization of South Asia , it was Indians and if we didn't responded to that grave threat Pakistan God forbid would long have been lost to our enemies.

Now Israel is a Grave threat to Iran & also possess a credible Nuclear arsenal & delivery system which automatically will compel Iran to respond in pretty Much self defense.

Media's role is also important as a famous claim by Ahmadinijad about Wiping Israel out of the Map but he never said that.

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## Kompromat

HUD1 said:


> At least there are no chances of Israeli nukes falling in hand of terrorist.



Israel itself is a Terrorist Country being ruled by Fanatic Rabies with a meter long Beard , why would there be a Need for them to hand out nukes to a terrorist Group who wouldn't even know how to use them ?

Oh just for the Record , Israel did try to sell Nukes in the Black Market to South Africa & the first warhead you guys tested in Pokhran was also an Israeli Nuke (That is not Wrong is it): 

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-4594.html

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## Kompromat

500 said:


> *Israel is not interested in attacking Iran.* On contrary. In 80-es when Arab world united against Iran Israel was one of very few states who helped Iran.



Israel cannot afford that either nor they are capable of carrying out such an attack on their own & without Uncle Sam's help.

Peace must prevail but Unless there are a lot of warmonger inhumane bastards around i don't see that happening.


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## 500

Black Blood said:


> We are Declared Nuclear Power as we have tested them , they ain't hidden away moreover our program


There are only 5 legal nuclear powers. You did not sign NPT so we did not either. Declaring yourself a nuclear power makes is more sever than not doing it.



> is a Direct face breaking response to India's nuclear Program.
> 
> You must not forget it was not Pakistan which started the Nuclearization of South Asia , it was Indians and if we didn't responded to that grave threat Pakistan God forbid would long have been lost to our enemies.


Our enemies not only acquired WMD but also *used* them: Egypt used chemical weapons in Yemen, Iraq against Iran and Kurds.



> Now Israel is a Grave threat to Iran


As I said, Israel never had problems with Iran, on contrary, we helped them during the war. It's Iran who broke diplomatic ties with Israel, it's Iran who started threatning Israel, it's Iran who openly supports and arms terrorist groups against Israel.



> Media's role is also important as a famous claim by Ahmadinijad about Wiping Israel out of the Map but he never said that.


Yeah sure 






I guess you will say now that it's CGI not real Ahmadinejad


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## 500

Black Blood said:


> Israel itself is a Terrorist Country being ruled by Fanatic Rabies with a meter long Beard , why would there be a Need for them to hand out nukes to a terrorist Group who wouldn't even know how to use them ?


No Israel's Prime Minister was religious so far.



> Oh just for the Record , Israel did try to sell Nukes in the Black Market to South Africa & the first warhead you guys tested in Pokhran was also an Israeli Nuke (That is not Wrong is it):


Nonsense. Check your own link. There is nothing about Israel offering nukes or even nuclear materials to South Africa. He is just making assumptions by combining two different documents.


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## muse

> Israel never had problems with Iran, on contrary, we helped them during the war. It's Iran who broke diplomatic ties with Israel, it's Iran who started threatning Israel, it's Iran who openly supports and arms terrorist groups against Israel.




Why does what Iran did have traction among Muslim majority countries? Why do majorities of Arabs (non-Iranians) support Iran and Ahmadinejad?

See, 500, today, Iran, tomorrow who? Israel gives ammunition to those that it needs as friends, over what? Do Muslims really have no claims over Jerusalem and must suffer a hostile regime thumbing it's nose on their claims? Children of a lesser god? Must Muslims continue to see an idiot problem like partition and the Palestinian state go on and on and on - with petty behaviour like check point hell?? This conflict is like a constant flame feeding a larger fire, I can't really understand why people in Israel don't see this as a great danger.

Some Muslims are certainly motivated by hatred but majorities?? really?.

And then there are nukes, will Arabs and Iranians and other Muslims really have to swallow, Israeli nukes good and Iranian bad and impossible? Just because US says so? Who died and left them in charge? Egypt which has a peace treaty with Israel doesnot seem to think so. Is Israel safer?, Is the threat also demographic and cultural? Isn't this a absurd situation? American General Petraeus's comments on what increases the threat to US troops has been heard by the world - isn't there some possibility of some kind of real breakthrough that enables Israel to become a part of where it actually belongs?

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## Patrician

Black Blood said:


> US and its allies attacked Iraq & Killed hundered's and Thousands of Innocent Muslims just because their Intelligence reports were positive that Iraq has WMD's.
> 
> Now they were dangerous just because they were Muslims , But a Jewish state with WMD's which hasn't signed NPT is allowed to do whatever they want to do.
> 
> These are doubble standards of US & it is descrimination against other Nations , If IAEA picks Israel on Nail head , i must say that would be an acchievement.
> 
> Everyone knows Israel was supplied Nuclear weapons by US or UK if so then both of them should be known as polifirators.
> 
> *" Its OK when we do it !!! "*



The same 'double standards' apply to 1980s when Pak developed the bomb and US chose to look the other way. As an extension of your logic, Pakistani nukes must also share the same fate. 

I'm sure that's not what you want!


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## 500

muse said:


> Why does what Iran did have traction among Muslim majority countries? Why do majorities of Arabs (non-Iranians) support Iran and Ahmadinejad?
> 
> See, 500, today, Iran, tomorrow who? Israel gives ammunition to those that it needs as friends, over what? Do Muslims really have no claims over Jerusalem and must suffer a hostile regime thumbing it's nose on their claims? Children of a lesser god? Must Muslims continue to see an idiot problem like partition and the Palestinian state go on and on and on - with petty behaviour like check point hell?? This conflict is like a constant flame feeding a larger fire, I can't really understand why people in Israel don't see this as a great danger.
> 
> Some Muslims are certainly motivated by hatred but majorities?? really?.
> 
> And then there are nukes, will Arabs and Iranians and other Muslims really have to swallow, Israeli nukes good and Iranian bad and impossible? Just because US says so? Who died and left them in charge? Egypt which has a peace treaty with Israel doesnot seem to think so. Is Israel safer?, Is the threat also demographic and cultural? Isn't this a absurd situation? American General Petraeus's comments on what increases the threat to US troops has been heard by the world - isn't there some possibility of some kind of real breakthrough that enables Israel to become a part of where it actually belongs?


The main reason why Israel-Palestinian conflict is not resolved yet its because there are countries which sponsor anti peace movements among the Palestinians.

First it was USSR which suported PLO. When USSR broke PLO was forced to make peace talks with Israel. Palestinians got authonomy, they could get state too. But then Hamas supported by Iran started suicide attacks, Israel retaliated and so we got vicious circle of violence. If Iran will stop supporting terrorist groups theer will be Palestinian state within several years.


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## muse

500 I just don't know what to say, I'm flabbergasted by your response - The below resonated with me as a Pakistani, we have experienced this and I would not wish on enemies - especially this God's politics and God's law business - I think most agree that Jewry has suffered extraordinarily and understand the home in Palestine thing, I wish Israeli were not as estranged from where they claim is their home. 


iAugust 29, 2010
In Israel, Settling for Less
By GADI TAUB
Tel Aviv 

*WILL Israel remain a Zionist state? If so, what kind? *These are the important questions in Israeli politics today, and will be looming over the direct talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority scheduled to begin Thursday in Washington. 

*The secular Zionist dream was fundamentally democratic*. Its proponents, from Theodor Herzl to David Ben-Gurion, sought to apply the universal right of self-determination to the Jews, to set them free individually and collectively as a nation within a democratic state. (In fact, the Zionist movement had a functioning democratic parliament even before it had a state.) 

*This dream is now seriously threatened by the religious settlers movement, Orthodox Jews whose theological version of Zionism is radically different. Although these religious settlers are relatively few  around 130,000 of the total half-a-million settlers  their actions could spell the end of the Israel we have known*. 

*The roots of the problem have been there from the birth of modern Zionism. The relations between Herzls movement and Jewish Orthodoxy were uneasy from the start. After all, the Zionist movement sought to achieve by human means what Jews for two millenniums considered to be Gods work alone: the gathering of the diaspora in the land of Israel. Most rabbis therefore shunned Herzl, but not all. Some joined the movement, even formed a party within it, based on a separation of religion and politics. For them, secular Zionism was primarily a solution to the earthly predicament of the Jews; it was not so theologically laden*. 

*But over the following decades another form of religious Zionism came to precedence, inspired by the quasi-mystical writings of Abraham Isaac Kook, who was the chief rabbi of Palestine under the British Mandate in the 1920s and 30s. Kook saw secular Zionists as the unwitting agents of Gods providence, advancing redemption by returning Jews to their homeland. 

His son, Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook, later focused his fathers theological ideas around a single commandment: to settle all the land promised to the ancient Hebrews in the Bible. His disciples, energized by a burning messianic fervor, took Israels victory in the Six-Day War of 1967 as confirmation of this theology and set out to fulfill its commandment. Religious enthusiasm made the movement subversive in a deep sense  adherents believed they had a divine obligation to build settlements and considered the authority of Israels democratic government conditional on its acceptance of what they declared to be Gods politics.* 

*Although religious settlers often describe themselves as heirs of the early Zionist pioneers, they are anything but. Herzls vision was about liberating people, while theirs is about achieving a mystical reunion between the people of Israel and the land of Israel. Herzls view stemmed from the ideals of the Enlightenment and the tradition of democratic national liberation movements, dating back to the American and French Revolutions; religious settlers are steeped in blood-and-soil nationalism. Herzl never doubted that Israeli Arabs should have full and equal rights. For religious settlers, Arabs are an alien element in the organic unity of Jews and their land. 

The consequences of these differences are huge. If the settlers achieve their manifest goal  making Israels hold on the territories permanent  it will mean the de facto annexation of a huge Arab population and will force a decision about their status. In Israel proper, the Arab minority represents about a fifth of its 7.2 million citizens, and they have full legal equality. But between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, there are roughly equal numbers of Arabs and Jews today*. 

Even if Israel annexed only the West Bank, it would more than double its Arab population. With birthrates in the territories far exceeding those of Arabs and Jews within Israel, Jews would soon enough be a minority. This would void the very idea of a Jewish democratic state. 

*Israel would have to choose between remaining democratic but not Jewish, or remaining Jewish by becoming non-democratic. Israels enemies have long maintained that Zionism is racism and that Israel is an apartheid state. If the settlers succeed, they will turn this lie into truth. 

In fact, the former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, once the great patron of the settlers, was one of the first politicians on the right to accept that the settlers dream is hopeless. That is why he led Israel out of Gaza in 2005. But not all have followed him. The secular Israeli right has abandoned the idea of annexation but still favors settlement on short-term (and short-sighted) security grounds. 

Preserving military rule over the territories, they believe, is necessary to keep terrorism in check, and the settlements demonstrate Israels resolve. Although the occupation and the suspension of Palestinian rights are officially temporary, the right wing aspires to keep Arabs indefinitely in quasi-colonial status. Given the Palestinians refusal to sign a peace deal with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahus predecessors, many Israelis who oppose the settlements and occupation in principle have thrown up their hands and accepted this situation, too. 

But the status quo cannot last  and Israelis and their supporters need to confront this fact.* The most pressing problem with the settlements is not that they are obstacles to a final peace accord, which is how settlement critics have often framed the issue. The danger is that they will doom Zionism itself. 

*If the road to partition is blocked, Israel will be forced to choose between two terrible options: Jewish-dominated apartheid or non-Jewish democracy. If Israel opts for apartheid, as the settlers wish, Israel will betray the beliefs it was founded on, become a pariah state and provoke the Arab population to an understandable rebellion. If a non-Jewish democracy is formally established, it is sure to be dysfunctional. Fatah and Hamas havent been able to reconcile their differences peacefully and rule the territories  throwing a large Jewish population into the mix is surely not going to produce a healthy liberal democracy. Think Lebanon, not Switzerland. 

In truth, both options  and indeed all one-state solutions  lead to the same end: civil war. That is why the settlement problem should be at the top of everyones agenda, beginning with Israels. The religious settlement movement is not just secular Zionisms ideological adversary, it is a danger to its very existence. Terrorism is a hazard, but it cannot destroy Herzls Zionist vision. More settlements and continued occupation can*. 


Gadi Taub, an assistant professor of communications and public policy at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, is the author of The Settlers.

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## Menes

500 said:


> Israel was one of very few states who helped Iran.


US also helped the Iraqis, but destroyed them three years later.



> 1) Palestinian state was not established because Egypt and Jordan captured their territories.


Because King Abdullah I annexed west bank as a result of secret agreement with Meir. Read _The Righteous Victim_ by Avi Shlayim.



> 2) UK armed and helped the Arabs in 1948 war, US was neutral. Only after 1967 war US started helping Israel.


The west banned military aids to both parties, however they sent thousands of volunteers and pilots to help Zionists during the Palestine war. US sent A-4 Skyhawks to Israel before the 1967 war, in addition to massive technical military assistance.

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## Kompromat

Patrician said:


> The same 'double standards' apply to 1980s when Pak developed the bomb and US chose to look the other way. As an extension of your logic, Pakistani nukes must also share the same fate.
> 
> I'm sure that's not what you want!



wow , a masterpiece post

Dude we developed nukes to counter yours , so you were the ones who have been threatening & intimidating us. Our nukes was just a response which cracked the jaws and bones of the Indian Establishment's face.

Its simple , if you would not have developed them Pakistan would not have too.

Enough said , no more Derailing of the tread or i will report.

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## 500

Menes said:


> US also helped the Iraqis, but destroyed them three years later.


Israel only helped Iran.



> Because King Abdullah I annexed west bank as a result of secret agreement with Meir. Read _The Righteous Victim_ by Avi Shlayim.


Oh yes, Jordan annexed because of Israeli conspiracy and not because they simply wanted these lands for themselves. 



> The west banned military aids to both parties, however they sent thousands of volunteers and pilots to help Zionists during the Palestine war.


Only US banned military aid, while Britain supplied military aid to Arabs and British officers even led Arab troops to battle



> US sent A-4 Skyhawks to Israel before the 1967 war, in addition to massive technical military assistance.


No, first Skyhawk arrived to Israel in December 1967 - 6 months *after* the six day war.

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## T-Rex

HUD1 said:


> At least there are no chances of Israeli nukes falling in hand of terrorist.



They are already in the hands of a state that has reinvented state terrorism. What israel does is pure form of state terrorism and this rogue state has nukes so the terrorists are already in possession of nukes.


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## spin666

500 said:


> Israel only helped Iran.
> Oh yes, Jordan annexed because of Israeli conspiracy and not because they simply wanted these lands for themselves.



We all know the power of Mosad! 




> No, first Skyhawk arrived to Israel in December 1967 - 6 months *after* the six day war.



Damn,I love those A-4's. One of the best(prize/ability) in her time!


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## T-Rex

"They are already in the hands of a state that has reinvented state terrorism. What israel does is pure form of state terrorism and this rogue state has nukes so the terrorists are already in possession of nukes," this is the topic, the damn A-4 is not the topic!


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> "They are already in the hands of a state that has reinvented state terrorism. What israel does is pure form of state terrorism and this rogue state has nukes so the terrorists are already in possession of nukes," this is the topic, the damn A-4 is not the topic!


 
If terrorists posses nukes, they would use it. For example if Al-Qaeda, god forbid, acquire nuclear capability no doubt it would attack innocent civilians in one of the major cities of the US or Europe. 

According to the general knowledge, Israel is a nuclear country since the late 1960's. If it was a terrorist state it could launch nuclear attacks and obliterate all its enemies in the Middle East, such as Syria and Iran.

However, of course, it never happened. Israel explicitly declared it will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons in the ME, e.g. if it posses nuclear capability it would not use it without any substantial provocation. Furthermore, Israel's official position has been that it would agree to NWFZ in the Middle East if there be an overhaul peace and normalisation between Israel and all its regional neighbours.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If terrorists posses nukes, they would use it. For example if Al-Qaeda, god forbid, acquire nuclear capability no doubt it would attack innocent civilians in one of the major cities of the US or Europe.
> 
> According to the general knowledge, Israel is a nuclear country since the late 1960's. If it was a terrorist state it could launch nuclear attacks and obliterate all its enemies in the Middle East, such as Syria and Iran.
> 
> However, of course, it never happened. Israel explicitly declared it will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons in the ME, e.g. if it posses nuclear capability it would not use it without any substantial provocation. Furthermore, Israel's official position has been that it would agree to NWFZ in the Middle East if there be an overhaul peace and normalisation between Israel and all its regional neighbours.



Israeli terrorists don't need nukes to kill and terrorise Palestinian children and women, they do it with their tanks and missiles.


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Israeli terrorists don't need nukes to kill and terrorise Palestinian children and women, they do it with their tanks and missiles.


 
So Israel so-called nukes makes no difference. Hence, this thread should be close for moderation.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So Israel so-called nukes makes no difference. Hence, this thread should be close for moderation.



I've a hunch that your deep desire to close this thread is going remain unfulfilled!


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> I've a hunch that your deep desire to close this thread is going remain unfulfilled!


 
What is there more to discuss? The conclusion as you phrase it is that Israel's strategic capabilities are not relevant for its policies and approach, so IAEA would waste its time dealing with it instead of addressing more urgent matters.


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## bularab

I even doubt that Israel posess nuclear weapons. Chemical surely, but NOT nuclear.


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## secularbuster

bularab said:


> I even doubt that Israel posess nuclear weapons. Chemical surely, but NOT nuclear.


*
Of course, you want to say that israel has the right to enjoy the privilege of your doubt, but remember Iraq was not given this privilege. Everywhere we turn there's nothing but hypocrisy.*

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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Of course, you want to say that israel has the right to enjoy the privilege of your doubt, but remember Iraq was not given this privilege. Everywhere we turn there's nothing but hypocrisy.*


 
Pakistan also enjoyed that privilege until 1988, India until 1974, and North Korea until 2006.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Pakistan also enjoyed that privilege until 1988, India until 1974, and North Korea until 2006.



How about Iraq?


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## nirreich

Saddam's nuclear programme was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and thank god for that - just imagine what this guy would have done if he had nukes. In principle, there should be a world free of nuclear weapons, in practice we should prevent radical regimes which threaten to destabilise world order to develop nuclear weapons. So, although it is not a welcomed situation, it would not change much if a country like Belgium would develop nuclear weapons. 

However, countries like Iran, Syria, Myanmar, Sudan, Libya, Venezuela, and Cuba should be prevented from acquiring nuclear weapons. If it was possible, the US should have made stronger efforts to prevent Pakistan and North Korea from acquiring nukes in light of their irresponsible proliferation policy (nuclear assistance to radical regimes: Iran, Syria, Libya)


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Saddam's nuclear programme was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and thank god for that - just imagine what this guy would have done if he had nukes. In principle, there should be a world free of nuclear weapons, in practice we should prevent radical regimes which threaten to destabilise world order to develop nuclear weapons. So, although it is not a welcomed situation, it would not change much if a country like Belgium would develop nuclear weapons.
> 
> However, countries like Iran, Syria, Myanmar, Sudan, Libya, Venezuela, and Cuba should be prevented from acquiring nuclear weapons. If it was possible, the US should have made stronger efforts to prevent Pakistan and North Korea from acquiring nukes in light of their irresponsible proliferation policy (nuclear assistance to radical regimes: Iran, Syria, Libya)



Isreal's so-called non-existent WMD factories also need to be destroyed, if Iraq did not have the right neither does israel.


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## nirreich

Iraq violated its commitment not to develop nuclear weapons under its participation in the NPT. Israel never gave any such commitment.

Furthermore, Saddam used WMD against his own people and against the Iranians in Iran-Iraq War. He occupied Kuwait and threatened all his other neighbours, Mainly Saudi Arabia. Saddam's regime was a cause of instability in the region.

Israel never used WMD or nuclear weapons or threatened to use them against its neighbours, Israel did not occupy any country, and it is willing to negotiate on peace agreements with all its neighbours.

If you do not see the difference between rogue and dictatorial regimes which pose a threat to international stability and democratic responsible one (like Israel), then you have a fundamental problem to understand contemporary world affairs.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Iraq violated its commitment not to develop nuclear weapons under its participation in the NPT. Israel never gave any such commitment.
> 
> Furthermore, Saddam used WMD against his own people and against the Iranians in Iran-Iraq War. He occupied Kuwait and threatened all his other neighbours, Mainly Saudi Arabia. Saddam's regime was a cause of instability in the region.
> 
> Israel never used WMD or nuclear weapons or threatened to use them against its neighbours, Israel did not occupy any country, and it is willing to negotiate on peace agreements with all its neighbours.
> 
> If you do not see the difference between rogue and dictatorial regimes which pose a threat to international stability and democratic responsible one (like Israel), then you have a fundamental problem to understand contemporary world affairs.



Israel has been threatening to use the nukes in case of a military defeat. On many occasions they have indicated the nuclear option. The israeli submarines armed with nukes patrolling the Iranian coast is a clear indication of that threat.

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## TruthSeeker

The USA can accept that Israel has nuclear weapons because the USA trusts that Israel will only use such weapons to preserve its existence. The USA agrees that the existence of Israel should be preserved by any means necessary, including the threat of nuclear retaliation against anyone who would destroy Israel. The USA does not beieve that Iran will use nuclear weapons only in self-defense. Therefore the USA cannot accept an Iranian nuclear weapon.


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## secularbuster

TruthSeeker said:


> The USA can accept that Israel has nuclear weapons because the USA trusts that Israel will only use such weapons to preserve its existence. The USA agrees that the existence of Israel should be preserved by any means necessary, including the threat of nuclear retaliation against anyone who would destroy Israel. The USA does not beieve that Iran will use nuclear weapons only in self-defense. Therefore the USA cannot accept an Iranian nuclear weapon.



*And like many Iran does not believe that the US will use its nukes only to defend its territory. That's why most countries do not accept a rogue country like the US possessing nukes!*

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## cfldad

double standard


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Israel has been threatening to use the nukes in case of a military defeat. On many occasions they have indicated the nuclear option. The israeli submarines armed with nukes patrolling the Iranian coast is a clear indication of that threat.


 
You are misleading with your arguments.

Israel never threatened to use nuclear weapons against any country, and explicitly declared it would not be the first to bring nuclear weapons to the ME.

Your information about Israeli submarines with nuclear weapons patrolling the Iranian coast is a creation of your imagination.

According to the publications about Israel's nuclear programme it exist since the 1950's and no Muslim country was ever threatened by it. Thus, Iran and any other Arab country cannot use Israel's so-called nuclear weapons as an excuse for developing nuclear weapons.

Israel never threatened Iran, has no conflict with Iran. Iran is the one who threatened to destroy Israel and support terror organisations.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You are misleading with your arguments.
> 
> Israel never threatened to use nuclear weapons against any country, and explicitly declared it would not be the first to bring nuclear weapons to the ME.
> 
> Your information about Israeli submarines with nuclear weapons patrolling the Iranian coast is a creation of your imagination.
> 
> According to the publications about Israel's nuclear programme it exist since the 1950's and no Muslim country was ever threatened by it. Thus, Iran and any other Arab country cannot use Israel's so-called nuclear weapons as an excuse for developing nuclear weapons.
> 
> Israel never threatened Iran, has no conflict with Iran. Iran is the one who threatened to destroy Israel and support terror organisations.



*That's the israeli version of the truth which is acceptable to only a handful of countries like the US, UK and india. The truth is, sending a submarine with nuclear tipped cruise missiles to the coastal waters of Iran, is an open threat to Iran by isreal and this is the truth acceptable to all the countries except israel and its allies.** Do you want to laern more about the truth? Watch this:

http://www.vidjin.com/video.php?per...ican-imagine-what-palestinians-face-every-day*

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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *That's the israeli version of the truth which is acceptable to only a handful of countries like the US, UK and india. The truth is, sending a submarine with nuclear tipped cruise missiles to the coastal waters of Iran, is an open threat to Iran by isreal and this is the truth acceptable to all the countries except israel and its allies.** Do you want to laern more about the truth? Watch this:
> 
> If Israel can do this to a young Jewish American, imagine what Palestinians face every day - Watch Videos Online*


 
If everybody repeat a lie it does not become truth, and large part of the world does not have a problem to lie. Until you provide any proof to your arguments (and a video from Jerusalem is not a proof for nuclear submarines), they are still just fantasies.

BTW, I always "enjoy" to receive lectures about human rights violations from people from all sort of countries which are considered as "superpowers" in this field, like Bangladesh.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> If everybody repeat a lie it does not become truth, and large part of the world does not have a problem to lie. Until you provide any proof to your arguments (and a video from Jerusalem is not a proof for nuclear submarines), they are still just fantasies.
> 
> BTW, I always "enjoy" to receive lectures about human rights violations from people from all sort of countries which are considered as "superpowers" in this field, like Bangladesh.


*
That's right, no matter how many times israelis like you repeat their lies they won't become truth. BTW compared with israel and the US, almost any country is a superpower in the area of human rights.*

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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> That's right, no matter how many times israelis like you repeat their lies they won't become truth. BTW compared with israel and the US, almost any country is a superpower in the area of human rights.*



You still did not present any proof for your nuclear submarine tale, so I can only assume that you intentionally lied about it. 

You are another pathetic representative of a failed country of the third world and you are consumed with envy regarding Israel's success story to become one of the most advanced nations in the world. There are a lot of your kind, but quality and not quantity makes the different!


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You still did not present any proof for your nuclear submarine tale, so I can only assume that you intentionally lied about it.
> 
> You are another pathetic representative of a failed country of the third world and you are consumed with envy regarding Israel's success story to become one of the most advanced nations in the world. There are a lot of your kind, but quality and not quantity makes the different!



You still did not provide the israeli naval documents that say israel has never sent its submarines to the Iranian coast.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> You still did not provide the israeli naval documents that say israel has never sent its submarines to the Iranian coast.


 
That is a good joke: you are having hallucinations and I am obliged to disprove them? By somehow getting hold on military papers?

Let's make a deal: I have this thought with no proof that Bangladesh has nuclear weapons, now you are obliged to publish confidential documents of Bangladesh that will refute my assumption. Otherwise, you should agree that Bangladesh is a nuclear weapons state.

Or even better - I strongly believe that you are an alien from the planet Zorg. Until you do not present any proof to the contrary that is the absolute truth.

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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> That is a good joke: you are having hallucinations and I am obliged to disprove them? By somehow getting hold on military papers?
> 
> Let's make a deal: I have this thought with no proof that Bangladesh has nuclear weapons, now you are obliged to publish confidential documents of Bangladesh that will refute my assumption. Otherwise, you should agree that Bangladesh is a nuclear weapons state.
> 
> Or even better - I strongly believe that you are an alien from the planet Zorg. Until you do not present any proof to the contrary that is the absolute truth.


 *
Well, your friend bush with your advice started this tradition, "guilty until proven innocent" so why complain now? Prove that you have not done what I say you have done.*


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## Kompromat




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## secularbuster

Aeronaut said:


>


*
A rogue state like israel has the right to have nukes, chemical weapons, biological weapons and even thermo-nuclear weapons to defend itself but Iran can have only 100 lb bombs to defend itself, if one talks of evil, this is the height of it. America is rightly hated by its enemies!*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Well, your friend bush with your advice started this tradition, "guilty until proven innocent" so why complain now? Prove that you have not done what I say you have done.*


 
You condemn Bush for his so-called attitude and yet you adopt it yourself. Former US President Bush is not the issue of this thread. 

Israel, like Pakistan, did not sign the NPT - Does Pakistan is ready to give up its nukes? Of course not, not until India do the same (and prbably not even then...).

Iran did signed the NPT, and as a result received nuclear assistance from IAEA and from other countries, including building its nuclear reactor in Busher. Without this assistance, Iran was unable to develop nuclear programme.

However, although Iran promised not to develop nuclear weapons, it aspire to do so, and for more than a century constructed a clandestine nuclear programme and violated all its commitments. This is the difference between Israel (and Pakistan and India) and Iran (and North Korea until 2003).

Unlike Pakistan which is not ready to commit not to use nuclear weapons against India, Israel declared it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the ME, and until today kept its promise. Furthermore, Israel has no conflict with Iran, and until the Islamic revolution enjoyed good relations with Tehran. Unlike Israel, Iran declared its commitment to the elimination of Israel and helps terror organisations (Hizbulla and Hamas) to launch terror attacks against it. Furthermore Iran, support any Arab faction who is willing to continue with the struggle against Israel until its destruction. Just read the reports about Iranian assistance to Asad in Syria to slaughter his people.

Moreover, Iran has regional and global aspirations. As a nuclear country, it will obtain a better position to destabilise the Gulf states and bring them under its influence. The current Iranian regime believe that if it controls the oil reserves in the Gulf (including Saudi Arabia) it would be powerful enough to challenge the West and the US.

This is why Iran should be prevented from developing nuclear weapons, including with military means.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You condemn Bush for his so-called attitude and yet you adopt it yourself. Former US President Bush is not the issue of this thread.
> Israel declared it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the ME, and until today kept its promise. Furthermore, Israel has no conflict with Iran


*
Of course, bush is not the issue, he's here for reference. BTW by possessing WMD israel has introduced nuclear weapons into this region, so what you say is a blatant lie. Besides, israel not only occupies Palestine and uses terrorism to crush their legitimate rights, but it also has conflict with all its neighbours and that's why israel must not be allowed to possess WMDs.*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Of course, bush is not the issue, he's here for reference. BTW by possessing WMD israel has introduced nuclear weapons into this region, so what you say is a blatant lie. Besides, israel not only occupies Palestine and uses terrorism to crush their legitimate rights, but it also has conflict with all its neighbours and that's why israel must not be allowed to possess WMDs.*


 
I do not know what Israel possess or do not possess, and as far as I know no one (including the dissident scientist Vanunu) ever testified that he actually saw any WMD developed by Israel. So, nor just I did not lie, even if I wanted to lie I cannot do that: I have no evidence that Israel indeed developed nuclear weapons (although it seems it is capable of doing that). Read carefully what I wrote.

Israel never used or threatened to use WMD against the Palestinians or its neighbours. Israel has no conflict with its Arab neighbours, they have a conflict with Israel. The Palestinians who are Israeli citizens have more rights than the people of Bangladesh, the others are under the PA control.

Iran crushes the legitimate right of its people and use terrorism against them (and against people in other countries), but you are in favour of Iran as nuclear weapons state. Other nuclear countries behaves appallingly towards their people: Pakistan is crushing the legitimate rights of its people from time to time, China does it on a regular bases, not to mention North Korea - but the only country you have a problem with is Israel, although it is an advanced liberal democracy, far better than the above mentioned states. Fight for designating China and Pakistan as a NWFZ and then talk about Israel.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I do not know what Israel possess or do not possess, and as far as I know no one (including the dissident scientist Vanunu) ever testified that he actually saw any WMD developed by Israel. So, nor just I did not lie, even if I wanted to lie I cannot do that: I have no evidence that Israel indeed developed nuclear weapons (although it seems it is capable of doing that). Read carefully what I wrote.
> 
> Israel never used or threatened to use WMD against the Palestinians or its neighbours. Israel has no conflict with its Arab neighbours, they have a conflict with Israel. The Palestinians who are Israeli citizens have more rights than the people of Bangladesh, the others are under the PA control.
> 
> Iran crushes the legitimate right of its people and use terrorism against them (and against people in other countries), but you are in favour of Iran as nuclear weapons state. Other nuclear countries behaves appallingly towards their people: Pakistan is crushing the legitimate rights of its people from time to time, China does it on a regular bases, not to mention North Korea - but the only country you have a problem with is Israel, although it is an advanced liberal democracy, far better than the above mentioned states. Fight for designating China and Pakistan as a NWFZ and then talk about Israel.


*
Even if you repeat your lies million times they will remain lies, so go bark somewhere else. The point is israel is a terrorist state and its nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace and stability.*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Even if you repeat your lies million times they will remain lies, so go bark somewhere else. The point is israel is a terrorist state and its nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace and stability.*


 
Can't face reality, ha? Can't refute my arguments and say something which is not a phantom, ha? Well, you are not the first from the impoverished country of Bangladesh that reacted in such a manner to my comments, I am starting to think that this is part of the explanation why we would never discuss a thread about Bangladesh nuclear programme. It is not that you do not want nukes, it is just beyond your intellectual capacity.

And you wisely chose the most suitable nickname to describe yourself. At least you know what you really are, and now so do I.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Can't face reality, ha? Can't refute my arguments and say something which is not a phantom, ha? Well, you are not the first from the impoverished country of Bangladesh that reacted in such a manner to my comments, I am starting to think that this is part of the explanation why we would never discuss a thread about Bangladesh nuclear programme. It is not that you do not want nukes, it is just beyond your intellectual capacity.
> 
> And you wisely chose the most suitable nickname to describe yourself. At least you know what you really are, and now so do I.


*
I face reality like evrybody else but israelis face it by spreading lies and deceit and I don't blame them, this is the ony way the crooks survive, that's the saddest reality!*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> I face reality like evrybody else but israelis face it by spreading lies and deceit and I don't blame them, this is the ony way the crooks survive, that's the saddest reality!*


 
Well, I dare you to prove me wrong. 

You are the one who invented the nuclear submarine business, not me! So, who is the crook? 

I argued that if your parameters for which country is entitled to have nuclear weapons is its human rights record, you should pick other nuclear countries such as Pakistan, North Korea and China.

Do you want to argue that these countries are better than Israel? That would be foolish even for you because its a lie and I can prove it.

Do you want to argue that any country is entitle to develop nukes? Then, what is your problem with Israel?

You are tangled up in your own web and your last resort is to dam all and blame me in deception, although I discussed this issue in a frank and direct approach.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Well, I dare you to prove me wrong.
> 
> You are the one who invented the nuclear submarine business, not me! I argued that if your parameters for which country is entitled to have nuclear weapons is its human rights record, you should pick to other nuclear countries such as Pakistan, North Korea and China.
> 
> Do you want to argue that these countries are better than Israel? That would be foolish even for you because its a lie and I can prove it.
> 
> Do you want to argue that any country is entitle to develop nukes? Then, what is your problem with Israel?
> 
> You are tangled up in your own web.


*
If every country is entitled to develop nukes what is your problem with Iran?*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> If every country is entitled to develop nukes what is your problem with Iran?*


 
It is not what I argued, all you need is to read what I wrote. I clearly explained why Iran (and other rogue states) should be prevented from developing WMD.

I am still puzzled what is your argument, except that Israel is not entitled to have WMD because it called Israel and it is a Jewish state. 

Show me that North Korea Pakistan and China have better human rights record than Israel and I will join you in your just cause to dismantle Israel from its allegedly WMD.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It is not what I argued, all you need is to read what I wrote. I clearly explained why Iran (and other rogue states) should be prevented from developing WMD.
> 
> I am still puzzled what is your argument, except that Israel is not entitled to have WMD because it called Israel and it is a Jewish state.
> 
> Show me that North Korea Pakistan and China have better human rights record than Israel and I will join you in your just cause to dismantle Israel from its allegedly WMD.


*
And I explained why israel should be forced to dismantle its nukes!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> And I explained why israel should be forced to dismantle its nukes!*


 
No, you did not.

You said it because Israel "terrorise" the Palestinians, but you did not explain why you do not criticise other nuclear countries (Pakistan, North Korea and China) which terrorise their people or why you support Iran's right for nuclear weapons although it regularly crushes its people.

You singled out Israel and your explanations for it could only be considered as double standard. You should explain why Israel is worse than the above countries.

In order for you not to be confused again: I am explaining to you your *own opinion**.* My opinion is that there is no connection between human rights and developing nuclear programmes (BTW, Israel has no severe record of human rights violation than other developed countries, and it showed moderate and reasonable approach to the Palestinians but that is not the issue). I am against nuclear Iran from different reasons which were specified earlier.

Your evasive actions from simple explanations to simple questions portray you as either as a challenged person with limited intellectual capacity or as a hypocrite and a deceiver who has no respect to the value of truth, but like your kind of degenerates have no moral problem to complain about 'crooks' and 'lies'.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> No, you did not.
> 
> You said it because Israel "terrorise" the Palestinians, but you did not explain why you do not criticise other nuclear countries (Pakistan, North Korea and China) which terrorise their people or why you support Iran's right for nuclear weapons although it regularly crushes its people.
> 
> You singled out Israel and your explanations for it could only be considered as double standard. You should explain why Israel is worse than the above countries.
> 
> In order for you not to be confused again: I am explaining to you your *own opinion**.* My opinion is that there is no connection between human rights and developing nuclear programmes (BTW, Israel has no severe record of human rights violation than other developed countries, and it showed moderate and reasonable approach to the Palestinians but that is not the issue). I am against nuclear Iran from different reasons which were specified earlier.
> 
> Your evasive actions from simple explanations to simple questions portray you as either as a challenged person with limited intellectual capacity or as a hypocrite and a deceiver who has no respect to the value of truth, but like your kind of degenerates have no moral problem to complain about 'crooks' and 'lies'.


 *
When the US talks about Iran or Pakistan does it focus on israel? So, why should I focus on 'others' while I'm talking about the israeli WMD?*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> When the US talks about Iran or Pakistan does it focus on israel? So, why should I focus on 'others' while I'm talking about the israeli WMD?*


 
You manoeuvring is almost pathetic. 

The US focus on Iran and Pakistan from very specific reasons which are not relevant to Israel, you focus on Israel because as you said it "terrorises" the Palestinians. So you should explain why Israel is such a unique case and far worst than the human rights violations of other nuclear countries, such as Pakistan, China and North Korea. You should explain why you are against Israel's allegedly WMD but support Iran's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.


----------



## silko

here we are trying to make the midle east a nuclear free zone, but no OHHH.... israel has to step up and say "we are threatened from every corner and we will use nukes if we are under threat"!

this is a silly argument posted by a israeli i dont remember here in the forum a while back!

why should you have it? we dont want nukes in the area, i dont want it, nobody wants it. except israelis who are afraid of arabs they have crushed every time they went to war with them!


----------



## nirreich

silko said:


> here we are trying to make the midle east a nuclear free zone, but no OHHH.... israel has to step up and say "we are threatened from every corner and we will use nukes if we are under threat"!
> 
> this is a silly argument posted by a israeli i dont remember here in the forum a while back!
> 
> why should you have it? we dont want nukes in the area, i dont want it, nobody wants it. except israelis who are afraid of arabs they have crushed every time they went to war with them!



First, stop your hypocrisy and call for all nuclear weapons countries to dismantle, including Pakistan, India and North Korea.

Second, if you do not want a nuclear weapons in the ME, support the international pressure on Iran to stop its nuclear weapons development, including the military option, if necessary.

Third, I have a surprise for you: Israel supports NWFZ in the ME. Yes, that's right. Israel is ready for that after there would be a lasting peace between it and all the countries in ME, including Iran. 

Until these desired times, divert your attention to much more urgent nuclear problems around the world (mainly Pakistan and North Korea). Israel never used or threatened to use nukes against of its kind and considerate Arab neighbours. Israel is a responsible country that aspires for peace and stability in the Middle East.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> First, stop your hypocrisy and call for all nuclear weapons countries to dismantle, including Pakistan, India and North Korea.
> 
> Second, if you do not want a nuclear weapons in the ME, support the international pressure on Iran to stop its nuclear weapons development, including the military option, if necessary.
> 
> Third, I have a surprise for you: Israel supports NWFZ in the ME. Yes, that's right. Israel is ready for that after there would be a lasting peace between it and all the countries in ME, including Iran.
> 
> Until these desired times, divert your attention to much more urgent nuclear problems around the world (mainly Pakistan and North Korea). Israel never used or threatened to use nukes against of its kind and considerate Arab neighbours. Israel is a responsible country that aspires for peace and stability in the Middle East.



*Hypocrisy is israel's another name and you're telling others to stop hypocrisy!!! Israel can commit terrorism against the Palestinians on daily basis and then go on to arm itself with every kind of WMD and then lecture Muslim states not to have a nucler deterrent against the israeli WMDs, that is **HYPOCRISY.* *BTW this is not america or Europe where you can cover your crimes by singing "Oh, I'm Jewish" song!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Hypocrisy is israel's another name and you're telling others to stop hypocrisy!!! Israel can commit terrorism against the Palestinians on daily basis and then go on to arm itself with every kind of WMD and then lecture Muslim states not to have a nucler deterrent against the israeli WMDs, that is **HYPOCRISY.* *BTW this is not america or Europe where you can cover your crimes by singing "Oh, I'm Jewish" song!*


 
Hypocrisy is to single out Israel while ignoring other nuclear weapons state. You continue with your double standard and avoiding any explanation of your deceitful opinion.

Writing your pathetic position in bold and bigger fonts will not make it accurate or an opinion which should be respected.

The only one who is crying here is you who choose every tactic on earth just to avoid sincere discussion and simple explanation about the illogic of your opinion. Oh, you wish you could be in Europe and not in the impoverished country of Bangladesh.


----------



## Solomon2

secularbuster said:


> Hypocrisy is israel's another name and you're telling others to stop hypocrisy!!! Israel can commit terrorism against the Palestinians on daily basis and then go on to arm itself with every kind of WMD and then lecture Muslim states not to have a nucler deterrent against the israeli WMDs, that is HYPOCRISY.


No, that's circular reasoning. The challenge is now for you to convince everybody why your opinion should be respected.


----------



## secularbuster

Solomon2 said:


> No, that's circular reasoning. The challenge is now for you to convince everybody why your opinion should be respected.


*
A challenge from a hypocrite is not a challenge but deceit!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> A challenge from a hypocrite is not a challenge but deceit!*


 
What are you talking about? I asked you a simple question and you are doing everything not to deliver a simple answer.

For the hundred time:

You argue that Israel is not allowed to have nuclear weapons because it "terrorises" the Palestinians. So, why Iran is entitle to have nukes while it oppresses its people? Why you do not call Pakistan, China and North Korea to dismantle as a result of their human rights violations?

What is more hypercritical than the above position???


----------



## Solomon2

secularbuster said:


> A challenge from a hypocrite is not a challenge but deceit!


Even if you believe I'm a hypocrite, fish need to swim in water to survive. Deal with it.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> What are you talking about? I asked you a simple question and you are doing everything not to deliver a simple answer.
> 
> For the hundred time:
> 
> You argue that Israel is not allowed to have nuclear weapons because it "terrorises" the Palestinians. So, why Iran is entitle to have nukes while it oppresses its people? Why you do not call Pakistan, China and North Korea to dismantle as a result of their human rights violations?
> 
> What is more hypercritical than the above position???



*Israel is in a league of its own as far as terrorism and oppression are concerned, israel is another Nazi Germany! So don't compare other countries with israel.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Israel is in a league of its own as far as terrorism and oppression are concerned, israel is another Nazi Germany! So don't compare other countries with israel.*


 
Oh, finally we are getting some progress here.

So now you claim that Israel is the new Nazi Germany and thus not deserve to have WMD.

What a deep and original idea. Good for you!

Now, all you need to do is deliver the necessary proofs and I will be the first to deny my Israeli citizenship and ask asylum in the wonderful and prosperous country of Bangladesh. 

For a sharp mind like you it should not be a problem to present how Israel is worst than Iran, Pakistan, China and North Korea.

However, If as I expect you fail to do that, then we would be able to establish your mendacity and your hypocrisy towards Israel and heavily suspect that you are another case of a brained-wash anti-Semite.


----------



## silko

nirreich said:


> First, stop your hypocrisy and call for all nuclear weapons countries to dismantle, including Pakistan, India and North Korea.
> 
> Second, if you do not want a nuclear weapons in the ME, support the international pressure on Iran to stop its nuclear weapons development, including the military option, if necessary.
> 
> Third, I have a surprise for you: Israel supports NWFZ in the ME. Yes, that's right. Israel is ready for that after there would be a lasting peace between it and all the countries in ME, including Iran.
> 
> Until these desired times, divert your attention to much more urgent nuclear problems around the world (mainly Pakistan and North Korea). Israel never used or threatened to use nukes against of its kind and considerate Arab neighbours. Israel is a responsible country that aspires for peace and stability in the Middle East.


 
well, since most of the countries in the middle east doesn't consider pakistan and north korea as a threat i dont care what they do! but i know that israel will use it if a big power attacks it, and i dont want to get cancer when i go visit turkey just becuase some stupid israelis dont want to die!

as far as i know, there is not a single evidence that iran have made nuclear bombs, so i dont se them as a threat to my nation. however israel i see as a threat not only to my nation but to the entire midle east because they are the only one with nukes!

and what is NWFZ?


----------



## nirreich

silko said:


> well, since most of the countries in the middle east doesn't consider pakistan and north korea as a threat i dont care what they do! but i know that israel will use it if a big power attacks it, and i dont want to get cancer when i go visit turkey just becuase some stupid israelis dont want to die!
> 
> as far as i know, there is not a single evidence that iran have made nuclear bombs, so i dont se them as a threat to my nation. however israel i see as a threat not only to my nation but to the entire midle east because they are the only one with nukes!
> 
> and what is NWFZ?


 
First of all let me apologise for Israel's aspiration to survive, I forgot it is a privilege reserved only to Turks and their proteges.

You can visit Turkey with no fear, Israel is a responsible country and never threatened any country with nuclear attack. If you believe that Israel will defend itself from an attack of a big power, then support Israel's efforts for a lasting peace in the Middle East and you would have less reasons to worry about. According to all assessments, Israel is a nuclear weapons state for more than 40 years, and it never used this capabilities to destabilise the Middle East (not that the Arabs need any help with that...). 

There are plenty of evidence that Iran developed clandestine nuclear programme in a sole objective to acquire nuclear weapons. You mistakenly do not perceive nuclear Iran as a threat, but it is a threat not just to Israel but to the Middle East and to global stability. Luckily for the world the decision if to stop Iran is not in the hands of Turkey, but in the hands of the US and Israel.


----------



## Solomon2

silko said:


> as far as i know, there is not a single evidence that iran have made nuclear bombs, so i dont se them as a threat to my nation.


 
...in the long term and in reality, Israel poses absolutely no strategic threat to Turkey. Nor does the United States. Nor does Europe. Iran, however, poses a massive threatand all evidence suggests that the Ottomans would have perfectly understood this. It is Iran, not Turkey, that may plausibly be seen to be advancing both a coherent Islamist agenda and realistic, rational, long-term plan to establish itself as the regions economic and diplomatic hegemon. It is Irans leadership, not Turkeys, that in fact knows the region well.

What the AKP seems to be missing is this: Irans emergence as a nuclear state will overturn the entire regional power equilibrium. Turkeys vulnerability to this is the most pronounced in NATO, and the AKPs nonchalance about this is astounding. Neither a massive conventional army nor strategic depth are of the slightest value against weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, which is precisely why Iran wants them in the first placeobviously.

When Turkish spokesmen say they cannot imagine circumstances under which Iran would employ such weapons against Turkey, they are either disingenuous or stupid. One need not actually launch a nuclear weapon to change the strategic landscape. A nuclear-armed Iran would unhesitatingly begin exporting Shia radicalism throughout the region, and Turkey is part of the region. Iran has tried this before: The Turkish military ended up deporting the mullahs, but then, they could...

...Islamism does play a part in the AKPs doctrine. But it is more heuristically useful to use this as your starting assumption: They dont have a doctrine. Certainly, the leadership hopes to assume a leading role in the Islamic world and the Middle East economy. There is in fact a major obstacle in their way, but they dont want to think about it. They genuinely believe the Iranian threat is exaggerated. They have persuaded themselves that the world is alarmed about Iran only because its an Islamic country, and they know Islamic countries better. And besides, they need the money, now. Our long-term political interests have been subdued by our short-term interests, one diplomat lamented...Over and over, the same themes emerge: naiveté, wishful thinking, and sheer incompetence, which no one is pointing out because everyone is swallowing the AKPs line: Trust us, we know what were doing! Unfortunately, *this is not a strategic doctrine: Its just famous last words**.* link


----------



## silko

nirreich said:


> First of all let me apologise for Israel's aspiration to survive, I forgot it is a privilege reserved only to Turks and their proteges.
> 
> You can visit Turkey with no fear, Israel is a responsible country and never threatened any country with nuclear attack. If you believe that Israel will defend itself from an attack of a big power, then support Israel's efforts for a lasting peace in the Middle East and you would have less reasons to worry about. According to all assessments, Israel is a nuclear weapons state for more than 40 years, and it never used this capabilities to destabilise the Middle East (not that the Arabs need any help with that...).
> 
> There are plenty of evidence that Iran developed clandestine nuclear programme in a sole objective to acquire nuclear weapons. You mistakenly do not perceive nuclear Iran as a threat, but it is a threat not just to Israel but to the Middle East and to global stability. Luckily for the world the decision if to stop Iran is not in the hands of Turkey, but in the hands of the US and Israel.


 
i think we started very bad, my apologizes. let's start this over again!

aspiration to survive? from what exactly, you have crushed all arab resistans against you for over 60 years. and that with a smaller army and against several countries from several areas. not only have you crushed them but you have also gained land! what more can you ask for? nukes aren't neccesary. and beside, arent USA backing you up?


----------



## silko

Solomon2 said:


> ...in the long term and in reality, Israel poses absolutely no strategic threat to Turkey. Nor does the United States. Nor does Europe. Iran, however, poses a massive threat&#8212;and all evidence suggests that the Ottomans would have perfectly understood this. It is Iran, not Turkey, that may plausibly be seen to be advancing both a coherent Islamist agenda and realistic, rational, long-term plan to establish itself as the region&#8217;s economic and diplomatic hegemon. It is Iran&#8217;s leadership, not Turkey&#8217;s, that in fact knows the region well.
> 
> What the AKP seems to be missing is this: Iran&#8217;s emergence as a nuclear state will overturn the entire regional power equilibrium. Turkey&#8217;s vulnerability to this is the most pronounced in NATO, and the AKP&#8217;s nonchalance about this is astounding. Neither a massive conventional army nor &#8220;strategic depth&#8221; are of the slightest value against weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, which is precisely why Iran wants them in the first place&#8212;obviously.
> 
> When Turkish spokesmen say they cannot imagine circumstances under which Iran would employ such weapons against Turkey, they are either disingenuous or stupid. One need not actually launch a nuclear weapon to change the strategic landscape. A nuclear-armed Iran would unhesitatingly begin exporting Shi&#8217;a radicalism throughout the region, and Turkey is part of the region. Iran has tried this before: The Turkish military ended up deporting the mullahs, but then, they could...
> 
> ...Islamism does play a part in the AKP&#8217;s doctrine. But it is more heuristically useful to use this as your starting assumption: They don&#8217;t have a doctrine. Certainly, the leadership hopes to assume a leading role in the Islamic world and the Middle East economy. There is in fact a major obstacle in their way, but they don&#8217;t want to think about it. They genuinely believe the Iranian threat is exaggerated. They have persuaded themselves that the world is alarmed about Iran only because it&#8217;s an Islamic country, and they know Islamic countries better. And besides, they need the money, now. &#8220;Our long-term political interests have been subdued by our short-term interests,&#8221; one diplomat lamented...Over and over, the same themes emerge: naiveté, wishful thinking, and sheer incompetence, which no one is pointing out because everyone is swallowing the AKP&#8217;s line: &#8220;Trust us, we know what we&#8217;re doing!&#8221; Unfortunately, *this is not a strategic doctrine: It&#8217;s just famous last words**.* link


 
you cant say that USA is more important to iran than turkey. ottoman empire was a long time ago the same for the persians, you're right not every foreign affair with iran is the best! turkey needs to work on that part. but i have never heard AKP claim that they know everything, as far as i know, iran can dare to deply nukes against turkey. we do have nukes we to, but in a nato agreement! beside, your government is anctious and cant wait to attack iran, if iran poses a threat to turkey it poses a threat to USA's interests!


----------



## nirreich

silko said:


> i think we started very bad, my apologizes. let's start this over again!
> 
> aspiration to survive? from what exactly, you have crushed all arab resistans against you for over 60 years. and that with a smaller army and against several countries from several areas. not only have you crushed them but you have also gained land! what more can you ask for? nukes aren't neccesary. and beside, arent USA backing you up?


 
No need to apologise. Unfortunately, worse things are written in this forum (although I appreciate your self-admission in your mistake).

Even if I can agree to your general view, then why you are so concerned with Israel's allegedly nukes? Israel is not taking the advantage and using them to destabilise the Middle East or to interfere in the internal matters of other countries. Why you are not more concerned with Iran's nuclear programme in light of its objectives for regional dominance and its wide support for terror organisations that destabilise their host countries (like Hizbualla in Lebanon).

I agree that eventually Israel should dismantle its WMD programmes, but only when it could be sure than no one in the region would have motivation to eliminate it and might be tempted to develop nuclear weapons. This state of affairs can only be achieved once there would be full normalisation between Israel and all ME countries (including Iran).

Until these desired times, Israel so called nukes are not a threat to anyone, Israel is a responsible country with a stable democratic regime.


----------



## Solomon2

silko said:


> you cant say that USA is more important to iran than turkey.


We are "The Great Satan". Sounds most important, doesn't it?



> iran can dare to deply nukes against turkey. we do have nukes we to, but in a nato agreement! beside, your government is anctious and cant wait to attack iran, if iran poses a threat to turkey it poses a threat to USA's interests!


So in your view if Iran is a threat to Turkey the U.S. should attack it without Turkey getting its own hands dirty? I thought the experience the Ottomans had in the 19th century - being the "sick man of Europe" relying on "friendly" Europeans to protect its sovereignty - had cured Turks of this sort of thinking. I guess I was wrong. Can't you imagine, if the writer I quoted is right, how Turks may suffer for this in the near future? Think of the devastation of the Kurdish war in S.E. Turkey, but in Istanbul itself - and because Iran will have nukes, Turkey won't dare to lift a finger to stop it.


----------



## silko

Solomon2 said:


> We are "The Great Satan". Sounds most important, doesn't it?
> 
> So in your view if Iran is a threat to Turkey the U.S. should attack it without Turkey getting its own hands dirty? I thought the experience the Ottomans had in the 19th century - being the "sick man of Europe" relying on "friendly" Europeans to protect its sovereignty - had cured Turks of this sort of thinking. I guess I was wrong. Can't you imagine, if the writer I quoted is right, how Turks may suffer for this in the near future? Think of the devastation of the Kurdish war in S.E. Turkey, but in Istanbul itself - and because Iran will have nukes, Turkey won't dare to lift a finger to stop it.


 
i meant that USA would back us upp based on NATO! you know, an attack to turkey is an attack on NATO, beside it is a golden opportunity for america to finally take care of iran. and i am not saying that turkey will not help! didnt we help you in the korea war?


----------



## silko

nirreich said:


> No need to apologise. Unfortunately, worse things are written in this forum (although I appreciate your self-admission in your mistake).
> 
> Even if I can agree to your general view, then why you are so concerned with Israel's allegedly nukes? Israel is not taking the advantage and using them to destabilise the Middle East or to interfere in the internal matters of other countries. Why you are not more concerned with Iran's nuclear programme in light of its objectives for regional dominance and its wide support for terror organisations that destabilise their host countries (like Hizbualla in Lebanon).
> 
> I agree that eventually Israel should dismantle its WMD programmes, but only when it could be sure than no one in the region would have motivation to eliminate it and might be tempted to develop nuclear weapons. This state of affairs can only be achieved once there would be full normalisation between Israel and all ME countries (including Iran).
> 
> Until these desired times, Israel so called nukes are not a threat to anyone, Israel is a responsible country with a stable democratic regime.



you are right, but i just think that if you cant provide me evidence that iran has nuclear bombs i cant consider it a threat, no mather what you say. it just is like that to me! but i do agree, if iran gets nukes it is more of a threat to both turkey and israel!


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> First of all let me apologise for Israel's aspiration to survive, I forgot it is a privilege reserved only to Turks and their proteges.
> 
> You can visit Turkey with no fear, Israel is a responsible country and never threatened any country with nuclear attack. If you believe that Israel will defend itself from an attack of a big power, then support Israel's efforts for a lasting peace in the Middle East and you would have less reasons to worry about. According to all assessments, Israel is a nuclear weapons state for more than 40 years, and it never used this capabilities to destabilise the Middle East (not that the Arabs need any help with that...).
> 
> There are plenty of evidence that Iran developed clandestine nuclear programme in a sole objective to acquire nuclear weapons. You mistakenly do not perceive nuclear Iran as a threat, but it is a threat not just to Israel but to the Middle East and to global stability. Luckily for the world the decision if to stop Iran is not in the hands of Turkey, but in the hands of the US and Israel.



Israel's nukes are 'aspiration to survive' and Iran's possible deterrent is a threat, *your hypocrisy knows no bounds.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Israel's nukes are 'aspiration to survive' and Iran's possible deterrent is a threat, *your hypocrisy knows no bounds.*


 
Still avoiding a simple answer? and on the road avoiding reality and the differences between Israel and Iran? All you need to do is go back and read the replies - you still can read, right (although it seems you are having trouble to understand simple ideas)?

Last time we stopped in your claim that Israel is in its own league, but you did not prove it, What are your evidence?

Come on! Just one more step and I personally would join your thriving country of Bangladesh.


----------



## nirreich

silko said:


> you are right, but i just think that if you cant provide me evidence that iran has nuclear bombs i cant consider it a threat, no mather what you say. it just is like that to me! but i do agree, if iran gets nukes it is more of a threat to both turkey and israel!


 
I did not say that Iran already has the bomb, I said that it is progressing in that direction, and there are multiple evidence for that - both on its progress and on its intentions. If you want to get into it, I can direct you to IAEA reports.

Nuclear Iran is a threat not just to Israel (Iran is committed to destroy it) and Turkey, it is a threat to stability of the Middle East and the international community.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Still avoiding a simple answer? and on the road avoiding reality and the differences between Israel and Iran? All you need to do is go back and read the replies - you still can read, right (although it seems you are having trouble to understand simple ideas)?
> 
> Last time we stopped in your claim that Israel is in its own league, but you did not prove it, What are your evidence?
> 
> Come on! Just one more step and I personally would join your thriving country of Bangladesh.


 *
And you're avoiding the fact, the fact that israel and its masters have a double standard about almost everything, including the nuclear issue.*

*http://original.antiwar.com/shusseini/2011/05/23/the-absurd-us-stance-on-israels-nukes/*


----------



## silko

nirreich said:


> Still avoiding a simple answer? and on the road avoiding reality and the differences between Israel and Iran? All you need to do is go back and read the replies - you still can read, right (although it seems you are having trouble to understand simple ideas)?
> 
> Last time we stopped in your claim that Israel is in its own league, but you did not prove it, What are your evidence?
> 
> Come on! Just one more step and I personally would join your thriving country of Bangladesh.


 
well, turkey also wants nuclear plants, but that doesnt mean we want nuclear bombs! why isn't usa doubting us but iran? you know, this is the questions that makes me wonder if iran will go for it or not. and yes i have read a lot about it in norwegian news, 1.5 year back they wrote that iran could build a nuke in 6 months, it has passed 1.5 year, so by that time they need to have 3 nukes!


----------



## TopCat

nirreich said:


> I did not say that Iran already has the bomb, I said that it is progressing in that direction, and there are multiple evidence for that - both on its progress and on its intentions. If you want to get into it, I can direct you to IAEA reports.
> 
> Nuclear Iran is a threat not just to Israel (Iran is committed to destroy it) and Turkey, it is a threat to stability of the Middle East and the international community.


 
Israel is the main player for the instatbility of ME. Nuclear armed Iran will stabilise it as it will put a coutnerweight in the east.

Iran is not threat to Turkey neither for Pakistan. I never heard any Turkey's concern.


----------



## nirreich

silko said:


> well, turkey also wants nuclear plants, but that doesnt mean we want nuclear bombs! why isn't usa doubting us but iran? you know, this is the questions that makes me wonder if iran will go for it or not. and yes i have read a lot about it in norwegian news, 1.5 year back they wrote that iran could build a nuke in 6 months, it has passed 1.5 year, so by that time they need to have 3 nukes!


 
Turkey's nuclear programme was not a clandestine one like Iran's. Recently there were reports that Iran is designing the nuclear warhead itself and bought the materials for this purpose.

A lot of countries like Turkey developed nuclear programme for civilian purposes - energy, scientific research, etc. Unlike Turkey and other countries, Iran did not fully cooperated with the IAEA and explained its activities which do not coincide with a peaceful nuclear programme. 

Timeline for nuclear weapons development is quite tentative and change according to the scientific progress. However, according to IAEA reports Iran already masters the entire process of bomb manufacturing and has the necessary materials and it is only a question of decision of the Iranian regime. Once a decision is taken it would take them approximately two years to manufacture their first nuclear bomb.


----------



## justanobserver

iajdani said:


> Israel is the main player for the instatbility of ME. Nuclear armed Iran will stabilise it as it will put a coutnerweight in the east.
> 
> Iran is not threat to Turkey neither for Pakistan. I never heard any Turkey's concern.


 
Iran doesn't give a crap about Israel. All the hullabaloo is to get some recognition in the Muslim world 

Iran's nukes will solely be aimed at the Arabs


----------



## nirreich

iajdani said:


> Israel is the main player for the instatbility of ME. Nuclear armed Iran will stabilise it as it will put a coutnerweight in the east.
> 
> Iran is not threat to Turkey neither for Pakistan. I never heard any Turkey's concern.


 
Even without nuclear weapons Iran is the main factor behind instability in the Persian Gulf, in Yemen and in Lebanon, and it assists radical regimes such as Syria and Sudan.

Iran with nuclear weapons will be a grave danger not just to ME but to the entire international community.


----------



## TopCat

nirreich said:


> Still avoiding a simple answer? and on the road avoiding reality and the differences between Israel and Iran?
> .


 
Yes we know the difference. Israel is created making millions as refugee. Then again conquered the piece of land that they survived and occupying it for the last 70 years. Millions are getting born in the refugee camps while fanatic jews having cozy living in the home that they left behind. I seen old lady still carrying her home keys while some Jew from Europe is living a comfortable life in her home in Jerusalem.

Yes I know the difference and Iran is the right answer for Israel.


----------



## nirreich

iajdani said:


> Yes we know the difference. Israel is created making millions as refugee. Then again conquered the piece of land that they survived and occupying it for the last 70 years. Millions are getting born in the refugee camps while fanatic jews having cozy living in the home that they left behind. I seen old lady still carrying her home keys while some Jew from Europe is living a comfortable life in her home in Jerusalem.
> 
> Yes I know the difference and Iran is the right answer for Israel.


 
We won, they lost, deal with it!

Israel will have no problem to deal with Iran too!


----------



## TopCat

nirreich said:


> We won, they lost, deal with it!
> 
> Israel will have no problem to deal with Iran too!


 
Nope you are dealing with it with the nightmare... Sometimes I wonder how you guys sleep.


----------



## nirreich

iajdani said:


> Nope you are dealing with it with the nightmare... Sometimes I wonder how you guys sleep.


 
We sleep quite well, thank you - we are only 7 millions and we managed to defeat the hundreds of millions of people in the impoverished countries of the ME over and over again.

Rest assure we will have the upper hand in the future, while you and your kind continue with your deceiving and screaming, isn't it what you do best?

If you are so concerned about the misfortune of the refugees you are welcome to take them to your home country.

Oh, wait a minute, I forgot: the life conditions in Bangladesh are far worse than in the Palestinian refugee camps!


----------



## TopCat

nirreich said:


> We sleep quite well, thank you - we are only 7 millions and we managed to defeat the hundreds of millions of people in the impoverished countries of the ME over and over again.
> 
> Rest assure we will have the upper hand in the future, while you and your kind continue with your deceiving and screaming, isn't it what you do best?


 
Good luck on that. The day uncle Sam says NO, the same day you guys will start licking the feet of of impoverished. You are very good at that. And deceiving is what you are known for and for that, once you were asked to leave the earth by the people who are using you as pawn in the ME.


----------



## nirreich

iajdani said:


> Good luck on that. The day uncle Sam says NO, the same day you guys will start licking the feet of of impoverished. You are very good at that. And deceiving is what you are known for and for that, once you were asked to leave the earth by the people who are using you as pawn in the ME.


 
It is obvious you are consumed with envy regarding Israel and its true friendship with the US. You are brain-washed and you have not even noticed.


----------



## TopCat

nirreich said:


> It is obvious you are consumed with envy regarding Israel and its true friendship with the US. You are brain-washed and you have not even noticed.


 
heheheheh... sorry dude, we dont cozy with any country the way you do (let alone envy)... We survive by ourselves..


----------



## nirreich

iajdani said:


> heheheheh... sorry dude, we dont cozy with any country the way you do (let alone envy)... We survive by ourselves..


 
We too, in much more difficult and complicated situation than Bangladesh, and gained greater success.

Any way, back to the topic, you have misperceptions about the consequences of nuclear Iran and you clearly do not understand nothing about Israel and its place in the history of the ME. However you are in good company: all the Bengalis I had the dubious pleasure to discuss it with them in PDF could not distinguish between their right and left when in comes to issues of the ME.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> We too, in much more difficult and complicated situation than Bangladesh, and gained greater success.
> 
> Any way, back to the topic, you have misperceptions about the consequences of nuclear Iran and you clearly do not understand nothing about Israel and its place in the history of the ME. However you are in good company: all the Bengalis I had the dubious pleasure to discuss it with them in PDF could not distinguish between their right and left when in comes to issues of the ME.


*
Nuclear israel is the real threat and the US just ignores that and that's why the US has lost its credibility. Of course, to a country like the US credibility means nothing, licking the feet of israel means everything o them.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Nuclear israel is the real threat and the US just ignores that and that's why the US has lost its credibility. Of course, to a country like the US credibility means nothing, licking the feet of israel means everything o them.*


 
Israel is a lesser threat than Bangladesh. You do not let the facts to confuse you.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Israel is a lesser threat than Bangladesh. You do not let the facts to confuse you.


*
Israel is the greatest threat to world peace; let's have a poll, I'm pretty sure you're going to decline.*


----------



## PteX

secularbuster said:


> *
> Israel is the greatest threat to world peace; let's have a poll, I'm pretty sure you're going to decline.*


 
Well that is understandable... You perceive Israel as evil and we perceive you as evil, so its flattering really. Evil calling good evil, means we are doing something right.


----------



## secularbuster

PteX said:


> Well that is understandable... You perceive Israel as evil and we perceive you as evil, so its flattering really. Evil calling good evil, means we are doing something right.


*
Israel is evil and whatever is evil to israel such as justice for the Palestinians or the right of Iran to defend itself against the israeli nukes, is universally recognised as good. *


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

secularbuster said:


> Israel is evil and whatever is evil to israel such as justice for the Palestinians or the right of Iran to defend itself against the israeli nukes, is *universally *recognised as good.


 
Unfortunately for you, the universe does not revolve around the Islamic world.


----------



## secularbuster

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Unfortunately for you, the universe does not revolve around the Islamic world.


*
Unfortunately for you we're not talking about the universe, we're talking about the israeli nuclear threat. I know how it hurts the indians.*


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

secularbuster said:


> *
> Unfortunately for you we're not talking about the universe, we're talking about the israeli nuclear threat. I know how it hurts the indians.*


 
Hahahaha, israeli nuclear threat is only faced by those who have fought with Israel in some way in the past. That'd be all the islamic countries. India will just sit back and enjoy the fireworks


----------



## secularbuster

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Hahahaha, israeli nuclear threat is only faced by those who have fought with Israel in some way in the past. That'd be all the islamic countries. India will just sit back and enjoy the fireworks


*
Ha ha ha, our 'wise' indian sage pretends to be unhurt!*


----------



## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Hahahaha, israeli nuclear threat is only faced by those who have fought with Israel in some way in the past. That'd be all the islamic countries. India will just sit back and enjoy the fireworks


 

hahaha. . *SIT BACK AND WATCH*. You need more knowledge on a nuclear war. . I am sure you will suffer with a bad cough during and after the fireworks. .


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

secularbuster said:


> *
> Ha ha ha, our 'wise' indian sage pretends to be unhurt!*


 
Unhurt? How would it hurt us? I don't understand...


----------



## secularbuster

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Unhurt? How would it hurt us? I don't understand...


*
Again the 'wise' indian baba pretends!*


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

secularbuster said:


> *
> Again the 'wise' indian baba pretends!*


 
Bah, I'm in no mood to play your cryptic games boy. If you have a point, make it, otherwise don't bother me.


----------



## secularbuster

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Bah, I'm in no mood to play your cryptic games boy. If you have a point, make it, otherwise don't bother me.


*
We know, truth bothers you!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Israel is evil and whatever is evil to israel such as justice for the Palestinians or the right of Iran to defend itself against the israeli nukes, is universally recognised as good. *



You still did not explain why Iran has the right for nuclear weapons, but not Israel. Iran oppresses its people and helps other regimes to murder people too (like in Syria). Israel is not oblige to do justice with anyone, especially the Palestinians - like no other nation in the world received justice. The Palestinians should face reality and accept Israel's existence. Tough, but this is real politics.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You still did not explain why Iran has the right for nuclear weapons, but not Israel. Iran oppresses its people and helps other regimes to murder people too (like in Syria). Israel is not oblige to do justice with anyone, especially the Palestinians - like no other nation in the world received justice. The Palestinians should face reality and accept Israel's existence. Tough, but this is real politics.


*
Iran needs nukes to defend itself against the israeli and american nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Iran needs nukes to defend itself against the israeli nukes.*


 
Israel has no conflict with Iran, has no demands from Iran, has no historic hostility towards Iran, has no border with Iran nor disputed territories why should Iran needs nukes?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Israel has no conflict with Iran, has no demands from Iran, has no historic hostility towards Iran, has no border with Iran nor disputed territories why should Iran needs nukes?


*
Israel has no conflict with Iran it just incites the US to attack Iran once in a while. Go tell your tales to the reporters in Washington or London.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Israel has no conflict with Iran it just incites the US to attack Iran once in a while. Go tell your tales to the reporters in Washington or London.*


 
You continue to evade any discussion and you use closed circle arguments: 

I asked you why Iran needs nuke.

you replied: Israel threatens Iran.

I answered: Israel has no conflict with Iran.

So you answered: Iran needs nukes because US threaten to attack Iran because Iran needs nukes...

Do you see the problem? no logic. 

If Iran does not want to be attacked, it should not develop nukes. If Iran avoids developing nukes, it would not risk a military attack.

Capish?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You continue to evade any discussion and you use closed circle arguments:
> 
> I asked you why Iran needs nuke.
> 
> you replied: Israel threatens Iran.
> 
> I answered: Israel has no conflict with Iran.
> 
> So you answered: Iran needs nukes because US threaten to attack Iran because Iran needs nukes...
> 
> Do you see the problem? no logic.
> 
> If Iran does not want to be attacked, it should not develop nukes. If Iran avoids developing nukes, it would not risk a military attack.
> 
> Capish?



*Iran needs nukes to defend itself against the israeli and american nukes, this is what I said and the following is your version of my statement:


"So you answered: Iran needs nukes because US threaten to attack Iran because Iran needs nukes..."

You twist the statements of others to establish your lies.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Iran needs nukes to defend itself against the israeli and american nukes, this is what I said and the following is your version of my statement:
> 
> 
> "So you answered: Iran needs nukes because US threaten to attack Iran because Iran needs nukes..."
> 
> You twist the statements of others to establish your lies.*


 
the ape creature of the Indus could have already mastered this. Now, try again. 

You said: Iran needs nukes to defend itself.

I said: Iran would not have to defend itself if it does not develop nukes.

You said: Iran needs nukes to defend itself...

See the problem??? Another explanation?

Simple solution: no nukes, no threat.

Why Bangladesh does not feel threatened by US nukes and Israel allegedly nukes? Why Bangladesh and other 200 countries do not develop nukes because they feel intimidated by US and Israel?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> the ape creature of the Indus could have already mastered this. Now, try again.
> 
> You said: Iran needs nukes to defend itself.
> 
> I said: Iran would not have to defend itself if it does not develop nukes.
> 
> You said: Iran needs nukes to defend itself...
> 
> See the problem??? Another explanation?
> 
> Simple solution: no nukes, no threat.
> 
> Why Bangladesh does not feel threatened by US nukes and Israel allegedly nukes? Why Bangladesh and other 200 countries do not develop nukes because they feel intimidated by US and Israel?


*
Iranian nukes against the israeli nukes, if israel had not developed nukes Iran would not need nukes, you're making a lot of noise but avoiding this fact.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Iranian nukes against the israeli nukes, if israel had not developed nukes Iran would not need nukes, you're making a lot of noise but avoiding this fact.*


 
Why not Dr. Evil? Sounds better, no?

You still did not explain why Israel's or US nukes threaten Iran and not Yemen or Botswana or Bangladesh or Malta and they do not develop nuclear weapons.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Why not Dr. Evil? Sounds better, no?
> 
> You still did not explain why Israel's or US nukes threaten Iran and not Yemen or Botswana or Bangladesh or Malta and they do not develop nuclear weapons.


*
I have, israel is a terrorist state and its nukes threaten all.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> I have, israel is a terrorist state and its nukes threaten all.*


 
So why Chile or New Zealand or Iceland do not develop nukes like Iran?

Why Iran needs nukes while all other do not need it? How Israel threatens Iran if the latter chooses not to develop nuclear weapons.

Even when I give you the floor to explain your position with guided questions you still cannot say something coherent.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> So why Chile or New Zealand or Iceland do not develop nukes like Iran?
> 
> Why Iran needs nukes while all other do not need it? How Israel threatens Iran if the latter chooses not to develop nuclear weapons.
> 
> Even when I give you the floor to explain your position with guided questions you still cannot say something coherent.



*A terrorist state like israel must not be allowed to possess nukes. Isreal's nukes are a threat to the entire world. The topic here is israel's WMD not Iran's. Israel is expert in false flag operation like the USS Liberty incident.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *A terrorist state like israel must not be allowed to possess nukes. Isreal's nukes are a threat to the entire world. The topic here is israel's WMD not Iran's. Israel is expert in false flag operation like the USS Liberty incident.*


 
The topic is indeed Israel's allegedly nuclear weapons. However, you need to establish the bases for the discussion and explain why Israel need to be single out and not any other nuclear weapons state.

You said - Israel "terrorises" the Palestinians, but you ignore the human rights violations of other nuclear countries.

You said - Israel is a threat to the entire world, but most of the countries do not develop nukes against Israel.

You said - Iran is not Israel because Iran is intimidated by Israel, but Israel has no conflict with Iran and if Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons, it would significantly lower the risk of a military attack against it.

You support the dictatorial regime of Iran which murders its own people in his nuclear ambitions, but against nuclear Israel - hypocrisy at its peak.

Your last resort was to argue that Israel is a unique and exceptional like Nazi Germany, but you did not present any proof for this argument - which points to you as a philistine who knows so little about human history and the Nazi regime.

In conclusion, easily I disqualified all your arguments against Israel, and all you can do is to repeat your illogic claims over and over with no ability to defend them. 

I am quite please that anyone who is interesting in this issue could see in his own eyes the hypocrisy of a brained-wash anti-Semite like yourself who cannot cope an open debate without lies and mendacity, and could not give any rationale to the flaws in his pathetic arguments.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> The topic is indeed Israel's allegedly nuclear weapons. However, you need to establish the bases for the discussion and explain why Israel need to be single out and not any other nuclear weapons state.
> 
> You said - Israel "terrorises" the Palestinians, but you ignore the human rights violations of other nuclear countries.
> 
> You said - Israel is a threat to the entire world, but most of the countries do not develop nukes against Israel.
> 
> You said - Iran is not Israel because Iran is intimidated by Israel, but Israel has no conflict with Iran and if Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons, it would significantly lower the risk of a military attack against it.
> 
> You last resort was to argue that Israel is a unique and exceptional like Nazi Germany, but you did not present any proof for this argument.
> 
> In conclusion, easily I disqualified all your arguments against Israel, and all you can do is to repeat your illogic claims over and over with no ability to defend them.
> 
> I am quite please that anyone who is interesting in this issue could see in his own eyes the hypocrisy of a brained-wash anti-Semite like yourself who cannot cope an open debate without lies and mendacity, and could not give any rationale to the flaws in his pathetic arguments.



*

If the topic is isreal's WMD let's stick to that, let's not involve Iran in it just to serve your wicked purpose!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> 
> If the topic is isreal's WMD let's stick to that, let's not involve Iran in it just to serve your wicked purpose!*


 
Wicked? Am I an evildoer?

You do not have answers, so you again change tactics. It did not bother you for the last 2 pages that we talked about Iran.

We are talking about Israel and trying to find out what is so unique and so different in its case vis-a-vis other nuclear weapons countries and countries (like Iran) which pursue the option of nuclear weapons.

As I said, all your arguments have been a total absurd and did not explain how can you expect that international attention to be focused specifically on Israel, while there are more troubling nuclear cases out there.

Why Israel needs to be judged on a more severe scale than other countries which are involve in the nuclear weapons business like Pakistan, North Korea and Iran?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Wicked? Am I an evildoer?
> 
> We are talking about Israel and trying to find out what is so unique and so different in its case vis-a-vis other nuclear weapons countries and countries (like Iran) which pursue the option of nuclear weapons.
> 
> As I said, all your arguments have been a total absurd and did not explain how can you expect that international attention to be focused specifically on Israel, while there are more troubling nuclear cases out there.


 
*My argument is okay, it's your argument which is based on deceit and lies. Three fourth of the world condemns israel at the UN for its terrorism and you say that the israeli nukes are not a threat. You israelis are worse than the Nazis.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *My argument is okay, it's your argument which is based on deceit and lies. Three fourth of the world condemns israel at the UN for its terrorism and you say that the israeli nukes are not a threat. You israelis are worse than the Nazis.*



Three forth of the world is like Bangladesh: a bunch of impoverished failed states which envy the success of other countries and instead of improving their situation with a honest day work find the unbelievable insolence to lecture other nations. I could not care less about what your country and these failed states have to say about Israel.

Your arguments are ridiculous and you prove it again and again: you cannot defend them in a direct discussion, only to repeat the same lies.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Three forth of the world is like Bangladesh: a bunch of impoverished failed states which envy the success of other countries and instead of improving their situation with a honest day work find the unbelievable insolence to lecture other nations. I could not care less about what your country and these failed states have to say about Israel.
> 
> Your arguments are ridiculous and you prove it again and again: you cannot defend them in a direct discussion, only to repeat the same lies.



*What else could a zionist say, after all, most of the countries call israel what it is, a terror outfit with nukes.*


----------



## Roybot

secularbuster said:


> *What else could a zionist say, after all, most of the countries call israel what it is, a terror outfit with nukes.*


 
Most countries? Don't think so.


----------



## Tshering22

secularbuster said:


> *What else could a zionist say, after all, most of the countries call israel what it is, a terror outfit with nukes.*


 
Only Arab and Islamic countries. The rest have full diplomatic, trade and economic ties with the country and recognize it fully. Take the foreign relations of Israel Map and see for yourself if you don't want to believe it. And trust me, they really don't really miss you guys in their list. Go on. Internet is your friend. Google it out.


----------



## Tshering22

secularbuster said:


> *My argument is okay, it's your argument which is based on deceit and lies. Three fourth of the world condemns israel at the UN for its terrorism and you say that the israeli nukes are not a threat. You israelis are worse than the Nazis.*


 
Dude you seriously have no idea about Nazis then if you think Israel is Nazi. Really. Since your government doesn't want you to see the reality it has banned you to go there. If you have any other nationality, use that passport and go to Israel. You'll see for yourself. Even the so-called oppressed areas are far more advanced than most of our south Asian countries' peaceful areas and there is a lot of peace there. I know people who've been there.


----------



## secularbuster

Tshering22 said:


> Dude you seriously have no idea about Nazis then if you think Israel is Nazi. Really. Since your government doesn't want you to see the reality it has banned you to go there. If you have any other nationality, use that passport and go to Israel. You'll see for yourself. Even the so-called oppressed areas are far more advanced than most of our south Asian countries' peaceful areas and there is a lot of peace there. I know people who've been there.



*I have plenty of knowledge about the Nazis and that's why I can see how the israelis are using the same technique against the Palestinians. The Nazis needed breeding space so they invaded their neighbours; the israelis need breeding space so have grabbed the lands of the Palestinians. The comparison is quite appropriate but you won't see it for you're blinded by your love of the israelis and hatred for the Muslims. BTW you've deviated from the topic, it's about the israeli WMDs.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *I have plenty of knowledge about the Nazis and that's why I can see how the israelis are using the same technique against the Palestinians. The Nazis needed breeding space so they invaded their neighbours; the israelis need breeding space so have grabbed the lands of the Palestinians. The comparison is quite appropriate but you won't see it for you're blinded by your love of the israelis and hatred for the Muslims. BTW you've deviated from the topic, it's about the israeli WMDs.*


 
You deviated too.

If this is your comfort, so be it. I would not take away your little pathetic fantasies that bring joy to an anti-Semite like yourself. And it seems you really need them - after all, you are from Bangladesh.

The minute you really want to face reality and discuss it, just post it on this thread. Until then all you did prove is your ignorance about Israel, and your deceitful character as you only can lie and scream in order to cover for your incapability to defend your arguments. And fortunately, everyone could witness that.

BTW, your hallucinations about a breeding race and a breeding space are disconnected from the reality of Israel's withdrawal again and again (in 1978-1982, 1994-1999, 2000, and 2005) for receiving a bit of peace with its Arab neighbours.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You deviated too.
> 
> If this is your comfort, so be it. I would not take away your little pathetic fantasies that bring joy to an anti-Semite like yourself. And it seems you really need them - after all, you are from Bangladesh.
> 
> The minute you really want to face reality and discuss it, just post it on this thread. Until then all you did prove is your ignorance about Israel, and your deceitful character as you only can lie and scream in order to cover for your incapability to defend your arguments. And fortunately, everyone could witness that.
> 
> BTW, your hallucinations about a breeding race and a breeding space are disconnected from the reality of Israel's withdrawal again and again (in 1978-1982, 1994-1999, 2000, and 2005) for receiving a bit of peace with its Arab neighbours.


*
Singing the same old rotten 'you're an anti-Semite' song when the israeli threat is exposed. You can't fool the world forever. The days of incurring sympathy by staging dramas are over.*


----------



## secularbuster

roy_gourav said:


> Most countries? Don't think so.


*
Yes, most countries except uncle sam and his puppies like india.*


----------



## secularbuster

Tshering22 said:


> Only Arab and Islamic countries. The rest have full diplomatic, trade and economic ties with the country and recognize it fully. Take the foreign relations of Israel Map and see for yourself if you don't want to believe it. And trust me, they really don't really miss you guys in their list. Go on. Internet is your friend. Google it out.



*Most countries have diplomatic ties with the US but does it mean they are all like israel or india? Not at all, not at all. Russians for example openly call israel the mother of all evils. Once in a while visit the Pravda or the Chinese forums, it will broaden your views.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Singing the same old rotten 'you're an anti-Semite' song when the israeli threat is exposed. You can't fool the world forever. The days of incurring sympathy by staging dramas are over.*


 
You proved you are anti-Semite.

Only an anti-Semite like yourself has double standards regarding Israel and the Jewish people:

You singled out Israel as the only country in the world which is not allowed the have WMD, while you support tyrant regimes like the Iranian one and their right to have nukes.

You compared Israel to Nazi regime, although by any standard Israel is a liberal democratic country which preserve human rights and has a responsible policy, far better of most countries in the world, including Bangladesh.

And worst than anything: you think that the Jewish people do not deserve an independent state like all other nations, probably because you convinced yourself that they are inferior, particularly vis-a-vis Muslims and Arabs who has more rights on the Jewish historic homeland. I bet you are even an holocaust denier who think it is all a conspiracy for oppressing the Arabs/Muslims, like you friend, the villain who is now known as the Iranian President. 

This is why you are anti-Semite. I do not why you are so insulted, you are in a good company with most of the crooks and degraded scams of our world.

Furthermore, you are a deceiver who cannot defend his own argument and chose to escape from any direct question. You really are one of the most pathetic anti-Semites I ever had the displeasure to encounter.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You proved you are anti-Semite.
> 
> Only an anti-Semite like yourself has double standards regarding Israel and the Jewish people:
> 
> You singled out Israel as the only country in the world which is not allowed the have WMD, while you support tyrant regimes like the Iranian one and their right to have nukes.
> 
> You compared Israel to Nazi regime, although by any standard Israel is a liberal democratic country which preserve human rights and has a responsible policy, far better of most countries in the world, including Bangladesh.
> 
> And worst than anything: you think that the Jewish people do not deserve an independent state like all other nations, probably because you convinced yourself that they are inferior, particularly vis-a-vis Muslims and Arabs who has more rights on the Jewish historic homeland. I bet you are even an holocaust denier who think it is all a conspiracy for oppressing the Arabs/Muslims, like you friend, the villain who is now known as the Iranian President.
> 
> This is why you are anti-Semite. I do not why you are so insulted, you are in a good company with most of the crooks and degraded scams of our world.
> 
> Furthermore, you are a deceiver who cannot defend his own argument and chose to escape from any direct question. You really are one of the most pathetic anti-Semites I ever had the displeasure to encounter.



*You've proven that you're Shakespeare's shylock. You hypocrite complain about Iran's nuclear programme while running a WMD's factory at full speed. BTW those who steal the homeland of others are more than tyrants, they are heinous criminals.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *You've proven that you're Shakespeare's shylock. You hypocrite complain about Iran's nuclear programme while running a WMD's factory at full speed. BTW those who steal the homeland of others are more than tyrants, they are heinous criminals.*


 
As I thought, you admit that you are anti-Semite and racist. Thus, your preachings are a waste of time. I have no desire to continue to debate with someone who says he is a degenerate with no moral values. 

If I were you, I would wish that "Nazi" Israel occupies all the Muslim countries because Muslims in Israel enjoy more political freedom and economic prosperity that in any other Muslim country. You should beg Israel to conquer Bangladesh, but what country would want as a citizen a mentally challenged anti-Semite like yourself. 

I presented my case and you clearly failed to present yours. I am here to improve my thinking by discussing the issue with people with some intellect while you have none. You are here only to spread your lies and mendacity. Unless you reply to the questions you were formerly asked and provide proofs to your ridiculous arguments, there is no way to progress from here. All you did is exposing yourself as a challenged individual who has no basic skills for debating.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> As I thought, you admit that you are anti-Semite and racist. Thus, your preachings are a waste of time. I have no desire to continue to debate with someone who says he is a degenerate with no moral values.
> 
> If I were you, I would wish that "Nazi" Israel occupies all the Muslim countries because Muslims in Israel enjoy more political freedom and economic prosperity that in any other Muslim country. You should beg Israel to conquer Bangladesh, but what country would want as a citizen a mentally challenged anti-Semite like yourself.
> 
> I presented my case and you clearly failed to present yours. I am here to improve my thinking by discussing the issue with people with some intellect while you have none. You are here only to spread your lies and mendacity. Unless you reply to the questions you were formerly asked and provide proofs to your ridiculous arguments, there is no way to progress from here. All you did is exposing yourself as a challenged individual who has no basic skills for debating.


*
And you're admitting that you're the dirtiest villain, just like Shylock! You can dream of occupying the entire Muslim World but your Nazi dream won't come true, before that the israeli WMDs will be handed over to a new world body for safe keeping. *


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> And you're admitting that you're the dirtiest villain, just like Shylock!*


 
Unlike yourself I did not admit any of your nonsense, while you are proud of your anti-Semitism.

Israel will continue to prosper and gain one success after the other, while you and your country will stay behind, with your envy and hate. Israel is the strongest country in the ME, and has no problem to overcome rotted scams like yourself. Continue to scream your hatred, we could not care less.

You even lie to yourself with hallucinations about dismantling Israel. Keep dreaming, that what this scenario would stay. Your kind have no power to influence anything regarding Israel, so you are focused in spreading your hatred.

You could only aspire to live in "Nazi" Israel and not in the failed state of Bangladesh.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Unlike yourself I did not admit any of your nonsense, while you are proud of your anti-Semitism.
> 
> Israel will continue to prosper and gain one success after the other, while you and your country will stay behind, with your envy and hate. Israel is the strongest country in the ME, and has no problem to overcome rotted scams like yourself. Continue to scream your hatred, we could not care less.
> 
> You even lie to yourself with hallucinations about dismantling Israel. Keep dreaming, that what this scenario would stay.
> 
> You could only aspire to live in "Nazi" Israel and not in the failed state of Bangladesh.


*
What can be said about a country whose judges sentence a dog to death. To the Great Satan it may be okay but to the world it is a no no if it possesses nukes. If the judges of this country can have such hatred towards a dog much worse can be expected from its warmongering generals and politicians. Nukes are definitely not safe in the hands of these monsters. Here's the link, shylock:

Jewish court sentences dog to death by stoning - Telegraph*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> What can be said about a country whose judges sentence a dog to death. To the Great Satan it may be okay but to the world it is a no no if it possesses nukes. If the judges of this country can have such hatred towards a dog much worse can be expected from its warmongering generals and politicians. Nukes are definitely not safe in the hands of these monsters. Here's the link, shylock:
> 
> Jewish court sentences dog to death by stoning - Telegraph*


 
There are more intellectual headless chickens than yourself.

This is all you got? A ridicules story about a dog from which you arrive to conclusions about Israel's allegedly nukes?

Try to find about the rights of parrots, African swallows and seamy cats in Israel - who knows, maybe you would be able to understand better the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Even if you are an anti-Semite, a layer and a villain you do not have to be so obtuse.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> There are more intellectual headless chickens than yourself.
> 
> This is all you got? A ridicules story about a dog from which you arrive to conclusions about Israel's allegedly nukes?
> 
> Try to find about the rights of parrots, African swallows and seamy cats in Israel - who knows, maybe you would be able to understand better the Arab-Israeli conflict.
> 
> Even if you are an anti-Semite, a layer and a villain you do not have to be so obtuse.


*
Yeah, you're right I'm indeed a villain to you just as Antonio was to Shylock.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Yeah, you're right I'm indeed a villain to you just as Antonio was to Shylock.*


 
I see that this time you did not have link to the rights of the porcupines in Israel and how it illustrates Israel military and its foreign policy.

You really are dumb as a doorknob. Next time avoid any participation in discussions on important issues like this thread, you will save yourself the embarrassment. Focus on threads which discuss animal rights.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I see that this time you did not have link to the rights of the porcupines in Israel and how it illustrates Israel military and its foreign policy.
> 
> You really are dumb as a doorknob. Next time avoid any participation in discussions on important issues like this thread, you will save yourself the embarrassment. Focus on threads which discuss animal rights.


 

*You know shylock, I would like to give you my thanks for giving me this rare opportunity to contribute something to the welfare of mankind. It gives me immense pleasure knowing that at least one shylock is getting the share of my boots to his rear. Mankind will definitely pray for me for this contribution.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *You know shylock, I would like to give you my thanks for giving me this rare opportunity to contribute something to the welfare of mankind. It gives me immense pleasure knowing that at least one shylock is getting the share of my boots to his rear. Mankind will definitely pray for me for this contribution.*


 
Boots? What boots?

Your evasive manoeuvres?

Your hatred?

Your anti-Semitism?

Your limited intellectual capacity?

Your double standards?

Continue to occupy yourself with threads about the rights of camels in inner Mongolia, stay away from important and complicated issues that you have no skill to understand.

I know you are praying every day that Israel will take control over Bangladesh and save you from yourself. However, we are not interesting in anti-Semite, racist, intellectual challenged like yourself.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Boots? What boots?
> 
> Your evasive manoeuvres?
> 
> Your hatred?
> 
> Your anti-Semitism?
> 
> Your limited intellectual capacity?
> 
> Your double standards?
> 
> Continue to occupy yourself with threads about the rights of camels in inner Mongolia, stay away from important and complicated issues that you have no skill to understand.
> 
> I know you are praying every day that Israel will take control over Bangladesh and save you from yourself. However, we are not interesting in anti-Semite, racist, intellectual challenged like yourself.


 
*
OOOOOOh Shylock, can your hear me laughing at your distress? I just can't resist the pleasure of grilling a vermin like you. You know, you deserve it. Just tell your politicians to dump the WMDs and we'll be all friends, we'll even get you an invitation card from Ahmedinejad to attend a dinner with the Ayatullah, how about that?*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> OOOOOOh Shylock, can your hear me laughing at your distress? I just can't resist the pleasure of grilling a vermin like you. You know, you deserve it. Just tell your politicians to dump the WMDs and we'll be all friends, we'll even get you an invitation card from Ahmedinejad to attend a dinner with the Ayatullah, how about that?*



Distress? You are having hallucinations again. Take the blue pill, not the yellow one before you login to PDF.

Finally a great idea - we could dump WMD... on you!

With friends like that who needs enemies. I leave you to enjoy their company. After all you and they are anti-Semites with no moral values, you would have so much to discuss- all the success of both countries. Oh well, that would be a very short conversation...

You might interest the Iranians with your deep concern to the rights of the ants in Israel.


----------



## Kompromat

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

*Israel: an Impediment to Nuclear-Free Middle East*


Kourosh Ziabari

You might have frequently heard of the Western mainstream media&#8217;s claims that Iran is pursuing a military nuclear program which is aimed at developing atomic weapons. Actually, spreading falsehood and untruth about the nature of Iran&#8217;s peaceful nuclear program has been a constant, unchanging and recurring theme of the Western corporate media&#8217;s coverage of Iran&#8217;s events.

Over the past years, the world mainstream media, funded and fueled by certain Western governments to derail Iran&#8217;s sublime position in the international community through their unyielding black propaganda have laboriously and persistently attempted to pretend that Iran&#8217;s nuclear program poses a serious threat to the global peace and security and that Tehran is taking steps to create atomic bombs to drop on Israel and European countries.

Unfortunately, the people who believe such claims are credulously unaware of the fact that those who accuse Iran of trying to develop nuclear weapons are themselves the largest possessors of the state-of-the-art nuclear weapons and other types of weapons of mass destruction.

It should not be neglected that Iran has always been at the forefront of combating the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction and also a victim of such weapons during the 8-year imposed war with the Ba&#8217;athist regime of Saddam Hussein which claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iranians, and it was the United States that equipped Saddam with such weapons to use against the Iranian people in an unequal and unjustifiable war in which the brutal Iraqi dictator was unconditionally supported by a strong coalition of the United States and its European allies.

Since the U.S.-manufactured controversy over Iran&#8217;s nuclear program was ignited in the early 2000s, the White House and its cronies successfully distracted the international attention from the illegal, underground nuclear activities of Israeli regime and helped Tel Aviv to secretively further its nuclear program and build atomic weapons.

According to the Federation of American Scientists, Israel now possesses up to 200 nuclear warheads and since it is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT), it cannot be held accountable over its military nuclear program.

The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.

Since Israel started the development of nuclear weapons in early 1950s, it adopted a so-called policy of &#8220;deliberate ambiguity&#8221; and concealed its nuclear activities under this counterfeit label to enjoy immunity and avoid responsibility over its nuclear program, meaning that it neither confirms nor denies the possession of nuclear weapons, while even the U.S.-based scientific and research organizations have admitted that it has a perilous nuclear arsenal which is potentially able to evaporate the whole Middle East in a matter of seconds.

On June 19, 1981, the United Nations Security Council adopted a resolution which urgently called upon Israel to put its nuclear facilities under the comprehensive safeguards of International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA); however, Israel never heeded the calls of the UNSC and following that resolution, no significant decision was ever made to domesticate Israel and bring its dangerous nuclear facilities under control.

According to Nuclear Weapons Archive website, &#8220;the most specific and detailed information to be made public about Israel&#8217;s nuclear program came from a former mid-level nuclear technician named Mordechai Vanunu. Vanunu had worked at the Machon 2 facility, where plutonium is produced and bomb components fabricated, for 9 years before his increasing involvement in left wing pro-Palestinian politics led to his dismissal in 1986. Due to lax internal security, prior to his departure he managed to take about 60 photographs covering nearly every part of Machon 2.&#8221;

He made contact with the London Sunday Times and began to write an exclusive story about the details of Israel&#8217;s nuclear program. Unfortunately for Vanunu, &#8220;the Israeli government had found out about his activities and the Mossad arranged to kidnap him and bring him back to Israel for trial,&#8221; the report added.

Now, Iran has hosted dozens of representatives and experts from over 40 countries in the Second International Nuclear Disarmament Conference in Tehran to discuss the most important nuclear threats which jeopardize the international peace and security.

Last year, Iran had hosted the first Nuclear Disarmament Conference under the title of &#8220;Nuclear Energy for All, Nuclear Weapon for None.&#8221;

According to the scholars and experts who took part in this years conference, the possession of nuclear weapons by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council along with Israel which is the sole possessor of nuclear weapons in the Middle East are among the main concerns of international community which not only thwart the creation of a nuclear-free Middle East but also portray an unquestionable exercise of double standards by the Western powers.

The Tehran conference on nuclear disarmament has concluded that all of the non-NPT members should ratify this treaty and allow the inspection of their nuclear facilities. It has also proposed that Israel should be disarmed as soon as possible, because it&#8217;s the only owner of nuclear weapons in the Middle East.

Even as even the U.S. intelligence services have confirmed that Iran does not intend to produce nuclear weapons, Tehran is lethally under the pressure of the United States and its European friends over its civilian nuclear program. This is while 9 countries in the world own more than 20,000 nuclear warheads and this leaves us with a basic question: who poses the real threat to international peace and security?

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

Iran: Israel nuclear threat to Mideast - Israel News, Ynetnews


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Distress? You are having hallucinations again. Take the blue pill, not the yellow one before you login to PDF.
> 
> Finally a great idea - we could dump WMD... on you!
> 
> With friends like that who needs enemies. I leave you to enjoy their company. After all you and they are anti-Semites with no moral values, you would have so much to discuss- all the success of both countries. Oh well, that would be a very short conversation...
> 
> You might interest the Iranians with your deep concern to the rights of the ants in Israel.


*
Hey shylock, you are no victim, no matter how you put it, you're the perpetrator of the Shatila massacre and many more like that.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Hey shylock, you are no victim, no matter how you put it, you're the perpetrator of the Shatila massacre and many more like that.*


 
Me? Personally? What about the last tsunami in Japan - is it my fault too? 

You deviated from the topic, this is a threat about Israel's allegedly nukes. Can't you read?

BTW, how is your campaign for the rights of Israel's squirrels is going on?


----------



## Peregrine

I think that neighboring states of Izraeel needs to develop nukes as well. It will ensure peace in the middle east, and in this regard Pakistan can play an important role and we should, as izraeel is arming our enemy its only fair that we do the same for the betterment of the region


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Peregrine said:


> I think that neighboring states of Izraeel needs to develop nukes as well. It will ensure peace in the middle east, and in this regard *Pakistan can play an important role* and we should as izraeel is arming our enemy its only fair if we do the same.


 
Pakistan did try that with Libiya


----------



## Peregrine

Syama Ayas said:


> Pakistan did try that with Libiya


 
But Libya is not Izraeels neighbor, is it? i mean they don't share any boarders.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Peregrine said:


> But Libya is not Izraeels neighbor, is it? i mean they don't share any boarders.


 
Correct! but they were/are hostile to Israel.


----------



## Lonely

Peregrine said:


> I think that neighboring states of Izraeel needs to develop nukes as well. It will ensure peace in the middle east, and in this regard Pakistan can play an important role and we should, as izraeel is arming our enemy its only fair that we do the same for the betterment of the region


 


> Transfers to Libya. Although the U.S. intelligence community long had
> suspected Libyan interest in developing nuclear weapons, most analysts attributed the
> limited Libyan success to sanctions and lack of an indigenous scientific and
> engineering base. The IAEA reported in February 2004 that Libya began receiving
> centrifuge components from A.Q. Khan in 1997. Yet, the Section 721 reports did not
> contain any text about a Libyan nuclear program until 2000. Then, the report noted
> that the suspension of U.N. sanctions has accelerated the pace of procurement
> efforts in Libyas drive to rejuvenate its ostensibly civilian nuclear program. That
> report hinted that a nuclear cooperation agreement with Moscow would play a key
> role. Not until the report for January to June 2002 did the text note that Libya used
> its secret services to try to obtain technical information on the development of
> WMD, including nuclear weapons. If this was referring to Libyas procurement of
> a nuclear weapons design from A.Q. Khan, it seems to imply less willingness by
> Khan to provide the plans than apparently was the case. The reports for the last half
> of 2002 and first half of 2003 only mention technical exchanges related to dual-use
> equipment.



http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32745.pdf

*Result*: *Pakistan was counted a Rogue State henceforth* 



> The network exported two different things: knowhow
> on uranium enrichment and weapons design,
> and centrifugation technology. Its clients were *North
> Korea, Iran, Iraq, Libya*, and maybe others. Once fully
> matured, it comprised several main nodes: the *United
> Arab Emirates (UAE) (the companys headquarters
> starting in 1999), Malaysia, Turkey,* and South Africa
> not including various personal properties around the
> world.1 There were half a dozen workshops around
> the globe, with Dubai serving as the main platform
> for re-exporting.2 A. Q. Khan set up dozens of shell
> companies to that effect, sometimes just for one-time use.



http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub832.pdf


----------



## Peregrine

Lonely said:


> Result: Pakistan was counted a Rogue State henceforth


 I explicitly mentioned the word 'help'. In past the transfer was done by AQ Khan but this time Government of Pakistan should help these states to develop their own nukes especially Iran & Believe me that the moment Iran will acquire nukes there will be peace between them and Izraeel or if not, then no one will talk of surgical strikes against each other.


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> I explicitly mentioned the word 'help'. In past the transfer was done by AQ Khan but this time Government of Pakistan should help these states to develop their own nukes especially Iran & Believe me that the moment Iran will acquire nukes there will be peace between them and Izraeel or if not, then no one will talk of surgical strikes against each other.


 
You lost me there - how could there be peace if Iran has nuclear weapons? Without nuclear weapons Iran supports terror organisations and destabilise moderate regimes in the entire region. Yes, give them nuclear weapons and they would stay calm...

BTW, AQ Khan worked for the Pakistani government, the entire attempt to portray his proliferation as a private initiative was quite ridicules.


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> You lost me there - how could there be peace if Iran has nuclear weapons? Without nuclear weapons Iran supports terror organisations and destabilise moderate regimes in the entire region. Yes, give them nuclear weapons and they would stay calm...
> 
> BTW, AQ Khan worked for the Pakistani government, the entire attempt to portray his proliferation as a private initiative was quite ridicules.


 
Actually nukes create deterrence and that averts any plans of misadventure between two belligerent states . It's a simple tactic to attain peace by pursuing MAD strategy.


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> Actually nukes create deterrence and that averts any plans of misadventure between two belligerent states . It's a simple tactic to attain peace by pursuing MAD strategy.



Yea, it was a great success between Pakistan and India, and it averted "misadventures"

Since Pakistan acquired nuclear capabilities in the 1980's it actively began terrorising the entire India-held Kashmir with massive terror attacks which began almost immediately following the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Tens of thousands of people killed in these attacks.

Later after Pakistan declared itself a nuclear weapons state by conducting nuclear tests in May 1998, it showed more restrains. Only a year later Pakistan launched the Kargil Operation to seize control on a territory inside Indian-part of Kashmir. Since 1999 terror organisations with Pakistan's support expanded their scope of activity beyond Kashmir and into the heartland of India: the Mumbai terror attacks of 26/11 2008 and the attack on the Indian Parliament house in December 2001 are just two examples.

Pakistan under its nuclear umbrella could launch more attacks against India while knowing that India would not risk a nuclear war and retaliate with conventional forces - which have overwhelming superiority over Pakistan military.

And now you are trying to convince Israel to place itself in the same corner of India, willingly.

Clearly, when you bring nuclear weapons into the equation you receive lasting peace. no doubt about it.


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> Yea, it was a great success between Pakistan and India, and it averted "misadventures"
> YAP
> YAP
> YAP
> YAP
> YAP.
> 
> MORE YAP
> 
> And now you are trying to convince Israel to place itself in the same corner of India, willingly.
> 
> Clearly, when you bring nuclear weapons into the equation you receive lasting peace. no doubt about it.


 
First off, it's not about Pakistan nukes so stick to the topic at hand. Israel has nukes and its an open secret which means that Israel is following a NUT strategy which endangers the peace of the region, they only way out is to have nuclear proliferation and for that Pakistan should play her part


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> First off, it's not about Pakistan nukes so stick to the topic at hand. Israel has nukes and its an open secret which means that Israel is following a NUT strategy which endangers the peace of the region, they only way out is to have nuclear proliferation and for that Pakistan should play her part


 
I just gave example what would happened if, god forbid, Iran develops nuclear weapons. No stability or peace would follow.

Israel allegedly nukes do not endanger anyone. For more than 40 years of Israel's nuclear programme, Israel maintained a responsible policy, and avoided any use of its allegedly WMD in order to interfere with internal matters of other countries or to launch terror attacks on ME countries.

Iran, on the other hand, is already doing exactly that even without nukes!

Regarding Pakistan, if it openly exports nuclear weapons to ME countries, it would take enormous risks on itself and would probably considered as a pariah state, like North Korea which assisted Syria with its nuclear programme. Do you really want to eat grass and live on 200 Calories per day, like in Pyongyang?


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> I just gave example what would happened if, god forbid, Iran develops nuclear weapons. No stability or peace would follow.
> 
> Israel allegedly nukes do not endanger anyone. For more than 40 years of Israel's nuclear programme, Israel maintained a responsible policy, and avoided any use of its allegedly WMD in order to interfere with internal matters of other countries or to launch terror attacks on ME countries.
> 
> Iran, on the other hand, is already doing exactly that even without nukes!
> 
> Regarding Pakistan, if it openly exports nuclear weapons to ME countries, it would take enormous risks on itself and would probably considered as a pariah state, like North Korea which assisted Syria with its nuclear programme. Do you really want to eat grass and live on 200 Calories per day, like in Pyongyang?


 
Israel talks of strategic strikes not Iran. Israel has nukes so incase a war breaks out, and Izraeel is at the threshold of losing it will be tempted to use nukes which will bring a lot of destruction to the region so the better rationale is to have nuclear proliferation in the region. as for Pakistan helping, we can do that covertly like China helped us with ours or the french and Americans helped izraeel with hers.


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> Israel talks of strategic strikes not Iran. Israel has nukes so incase a war breaks out, and Izraeel is at the threshold of losing it will be tempted to use nukes which will bring a lot of destruction to the region so the better rationale is to have nuclear proliferation in the region. as for Pakistan helping, we can do that covertly like China helped us with ours or the french and Americans helped izraeel with hers.


 
Rest assure, Israel has the superior position over its Arab neighbours and none of them will risk another round of open war. If one of them do, it would be defeated without any need of WMD capabilities.

Providing nuclear weapons to ME countries which is already are very unstable would only make matters worst. It is obvious. It would be only a matter of time until one of the lunatics in the ME would make the wrong move and use nukes. And I am not talking on a conflict with Israel - just imagine nuclear weapons in the hands of Saddam in the Iran-Iraq War or in the hands of Qadafi nowadays, or in the hands of Syria and how it would effect what is going on in Lebanon. And the worst case of all: nuclear Iran which would be able to project its power with its nuclear umbrella on the entire ME and actively to take control on the Gulf states and their oil reserves. 

Regarding nuclear assistance, time have changed and what could have been done 30 years ago and more is not possible any more. Pakistan barely managed to escape in 2004 from its responsibility for helping the most dangerous regimes to develop nuclear weapons. I can assure you that next time the price would be very high. If Pakistan take the road of nuclear proliferation, I strongly recommend you to storage supply for a very difficult period in Islamabad.


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> Rest assure, Israel has the superior position over its Arab neighbours and none of them will risk another round of open war. If one of them do, it would be defeated without any need of WMD capabilities.
> 
> Providing nuclear weapons to ME countries which is already are very unstable would only make matters worst. It is obvious. It would be only a matter of time until one of the lunatics in the ME would make the wrong move and use nukes. And I am not talking on a conflict with Israel - just imagine nuclear weapons in the hands of Saddam in the Iran-Iraq War or in the hands of Qadafi nowadays, or in the hands of Syria and how it would effect what is going on in Lebanon. And the worst case of all: nuclear Iran which would be able to project its power with its nuclear umbrella on the entire ME and actively to take control on the Gulf states and their oil reserves.
> 
> Regarding nuclear assistance, time have changed and what could have been done 30 years ago and more is not possible any more. Pakistan barely managed to escape in 2004 from its responsibility for helping the most dangerous regimes to develop nuclear weapons. I can assure you that next time the price would be very high. If Pakistan take the road of nuclear proliferation, I strongly recommend you to storage supply for a very difficult period in Islamabad.


 
There are several ways to operate things covertly so i wont be bothered about that . We are considering the regions best interests here. Israel enjoys conventional superiority over her neighbors and considers pre-emptive strikes her legitimate right which makes Izraeel an aggressor and the best option against such a state is to go Nuclear, like Pakistan did, now all we hear from the eastern boarder is ''we can do surgical strikes'' but don't have the balls to do it


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> There are several ways to operate things covertly so i wont be bothered about that . We are considering the regions best interests here. Israel enjoys conventional superiority over her neighbors and considers pre-emptive strikes her legitimate right which makes Izraeel an aggressor and the best option against such a state is to go Nuclear, like Pakistan did, now all we hear from the eastern boarder is ''we can do surgical strikes'' but don't have the balls to do it


 
On the contrary: The most plausible option for Israeli military strike on Iran is if it continues with its nuclear weapons development. If Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons, Israel most probably would not attack it. So the best option is not to develop nuclear weapons.

The region best interest is helping responsible and moderate forces (like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Gulf states, Jordan) to push back the radical ones, and particularly Iran.

The AQ Khan network was a clandestine operation, but it was known to US and other Western intelligence agencies almost since its inception. I would not count on it that this time no one will know. Eventually, it would be revealed and Pakistan would pay the heavy price.

I hope Pakistan avoids any negative role in the ME and helping Israel's enemies. Pakistan definitely does not want Israel on its tail.


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> On the contrary: The most plausible option for Israeli military strike on Iran is if it continues with its nuclear weapons development. If Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons, Israel most probably would not attack it. So the best option is not to develop nuclear weapons.
> 
> The AQ Khan network was a clandestine operation, but it was known to US and other Western intelligence agencies almost since its inception. I would not count on it that this time no one will know. Eventually, it would be revealed and Pakistan would pay the heavy price.



The best option for Iran and the neighboring states of Izrael is to go nuclear, just to be certain that the Izraeli's don't even dare to consider surgical strikes. Not to mention that the sole purpose is to create Balance of Power in the region & the only road that leads to it, is the Nuclear way.
LOL are you kidding me? what was so clandestine about AQ Khans network, when Iranians and Libyans themselves admitted that AQ Khan is involved
As for us providing them assistance it's very much within our reach, How can the world blame Pakistan if a plane carrying nukes, disappears some where near the Iranian border?


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> The best option for Iran and the neighboring states of Izrael is to go nuclear, just to be certain that the Izraeli's don't even dare to consider surgical strikes. Not to mention that the sole purpose is to create Balance of Power in the region & the only road that leads to it, is the Nuclear way.
> LOL are you kidding me? what was so clandestine about AQ Khans network, when Iranians and Libyans themselves admitted that AQ Khan is involved
> As for us providing them assistance it's very much within our reach, How can the world blame Pakistan if a plane carrying nukes, disappears some where near the Iranian border?


 
Israel has no conflict with Iran. As long as Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons and assists proxies to attack Israel, it has nothing to be worried about Israeli retaliation, like other countries are not threatened by Israel.

AQ Khan's operation was not reported in the newspapers when it occurred, the Libyan and the Iranian knew about it because they worked with the network to develop clandestine nuclear programmes.

Again nuclear assistance from Pakistan to Iran will surface sooner or later, probably sooner. Both Pakistan and Iran are penetrated by foreign intelligence agencies and they will find out about it. I strongly suggest Pakistan to avoid any nuclear assistance to the most dangerous regime in our world - the Iranian regime. If Iran develops nukes with Pakistan's assistance, I assure you Pakistan would not stay dry.


----------



## nirreich

Aeronaut said:


> ---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------
> 
> *Israel: an Impediment to Nuclear-Free Middle East*
> 
> 
> 
> Kourosh Ziabari
> 
> You might have frequently heard of the Western mainstream media&#8217;s claims that Iran is pursuing a military nuclear program which is aimed at developing atomic weapons. Actually, spreading falsehood and untruth about the nature of Iran&#8217;s peaceful nuclear program has been a constant, unchanging and recurring theme of the Western corporate media&#8217;s coverage of Iran&#8217;s events.
> 
> Over the past years, the world mainstream media, funded and fueled by certain Western governments to derail Iran&#8217;s sublime position in the international community through their unyielding black propaganda have laboriously and persistently attempted to pretend that Iran&#8217;s nuclear program poses a serious threat to the global peace and security and that Tehran is taking steps to create atomic bombs to drop on Israel and European countries.
> 
> Unfortunately, the people who believe such claims are credulously unaware of the fact that those who accuse Iran of trying to develop nuclear weapons are themselves the largest possessors of the state-of-the-art nuclear weapons and other types of weapons of mass destruction.
> 
> It should not be neglected that Iran has always been at the forefront of combating the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction and also a victim of such weapons during the 8-year imposed war with the Ba&#8217;athist regime of Saddam Hussein which claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iranians, and it was the United States that equipped Saddam with such weapons to use against the Iranian people in an unequal and unjustifiable war in which the brutal Iraqi dictator was unconditionally supported by a strong coalition of the United States and its European allies.
> 
> Since the U.S.-manufactured controversy over Iran&#8217;s nuclear program was ignited in the early 2000s, the White House and its cronies successfully distracted the international attention from the illegal, underground nuclear activities of Israeli regime and helped Tel Aviv to secretively further its nuclear program and build atomic weapons.
> 
> According to the Federation of American Scientists, Israel now possesses up to 200 nuclear warheads and since it is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT), it cannot be held accountable over its military nuclear program.
> 
> The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.
> 
> Since Israel started the development of nuclear weapons in early 1950s, it adopted a so-called policy of &#8220;deliberate ambiguity&#8221; and concealed its nuclear activities under this counterfeit label to enjoy immunity and avoid responsibility over its nuclear program, meaning that it neither confirms nor denies the possession of nuclear weapons, while even the U.S.-based scientific and research organizations have admitted that it has a perilous nuclear arsenal which is potentially able to evaporate the whole Middle East in a matter of seconds.
> 
> On June 19, 1981, the United Nations Security Council adopted a resolution which urgently called upon Israel to put its nuclear facilities under the comprehensive safeguards of International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA); however, Israel never heeded the calls of the UNSC and following that resolution, no significant decision was ever made to domesticate Israel and bring its dangerous nuclear facilities under control.
> 
> According to Nuclear Weapons Archive website, &#8220;the most specific and detailed information to be made public about Israel&#8217;s nuclear program came from a former mid-level nuclear technician named Mordechai Vanunu. Vanunu had worked at the Machon 2 facility, where plutonium is produced and bomb components fabricated, for 9 years before his increasing involvement in left wing pro-Palestinian politics led to his dismissal in 1986. Due to lax internal security, prior to his departure he managed to take about 60 photographs covering nearly every part of Machon 2.&#8221;
> 
> He made contact with the London Sunday Times and began to write an exclusive story about the details of Israel&#8217;s nuclear program. Unfortunately for Vanunu, &#8220;the Israeli government had found out about his activities and the Mossad arranged to kidnap him and bring him back to Israel for trial,&#8221; the report added.
> 
> Now, Iran has hosted dozens of representatives and experts from over 40 countries in the Second International Nuclear Disarmament Conference in Tehran to discuss the most important nuclear threats which jeopardize the international peace and security.
> 
> Last year, Iran had hosted the first Nuclear Disarmament Conference under the title of &#8220;Nuclear Energy for All, Nuclear Weapon for None.&#8221;
> 
> According to the scholars and experts who took part in this years conference, the possession of nuclear weapons by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council along with Israel which is the sole possessor of nuclear weapons in the Middle East are among the main concerns of international community which not only thwart the creation of a nuclear-free Middle East but also portray an unquestionable exercise of double standards by the Western powers.
> 
> The Tehran conference on nuclear disarmament has concluded that all of the non-NPT members should ratify this treaty and allow the inspection of their nuclear facilities. It has also proposed that Israel should be disarmed as soon as possible, because it&#8217;s the only owner of nuclear weapons in the Middle East.
> 
> Even as even the U.S. intelligence services have confirmed that Iran does not intend to produce nuclear weapons, Tehran is lethally under the pressure of the United States and its European friends over its civilian nuclear program. This is while 9 countries in the world own more than 20,000 nuclear warheads and this leaves us with a basic question: who poses the real threat to international peace and security?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------
> 
> Iran: Israel nuclear threat to Mideast - Israel News, Ynetnews


 

OK,

I strongly believe that Iran wants nuclear weapons and to destroy Israel. If Iran has no intention to develop nuclear weapons and its nuclear programme is a peaceful one, it should fully cooperate with the IAEA and abide UNSC resolutions. The international community suggested other options for Iran to develop nuclear energy without uranium enrichment. If Iran accept these proposals, I am ready to admit my mistake and believe that Iran is not interested in nuclear weapons.

If Iran is so concern about the NPT, it should stop to violate its commitments to the treaty. I personally believe that Iran talk about to importance of all countries to join the NPT only to disarm Israel. First, let see Iran pressuring its friends who are not NPT members, Pakistan and North Korea, to disarm from their nuclear capabilities, and then I would be convinced that the Iranian are truly interesting in a world without nuclear weapons.

Otherwise, the Iranian regime is just hypocrite and spreading lies, and some people want to be deceived. good luck with that.


----------



## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> Israel has no conflict with Iran. As long as Iran avoids developing nuclear weapons and assists proxies to attack Israel, it has nothing to be worried about Israeli retaliation, like other countries are not threatened by Israel.
> 
> AQ Khan's operation was not reported in the newspapers when it occurred, the Libyan and the Iranian knew about it because they worked with the network to develop clandestine nuclear programmes.
> 
> Again nuclear assistance from Pakistan to Iran will surface sooner or later, probably sooner. Both Pakistan and Iran are penetrated by foreign intelligence agencies and they will find out about it. I strongly suggest Pakistan to avoid any nuclear assistance to the most dangerous regime in our world - the Iranian regime. If Iran develops nukes with Pakistan's assistance, I assure you Pakistan would not stay dry.


 
Israel drew blood by developing nukes. It's only fair if the neighboring states of Israel do the same, Its doesn't matter what Israeli intentions are, all the neighboring states of Izraeel & Iran need to be vigilant & wary of Izraeel. Izrael is an aggressor state and doesn't respect others territorial sovereignty, all these states need to gear up to make Izraeel abide by the International norms & the best option to create such a leverage is only if they go *NUCLEAR*
Pakistan can provide substantial assistance to these states and it's a piece of cake, for all we know, Pakistani nuclear scientists might already be working on Iranian nukes. Secondly even the Americans are clueless about the locations of our nuclear stock piles............... get the drift?


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> Israel drew blood by developing nukes. It's only fair if the neighboring states of Israel do the same, Its doesn't matter what Israeli intentions are, all the neighboring states of Izraeel & Iran need to be vigilant & wary of Izraeel. Izrael is an aggressor state and doesn't respect others territorial sovereignty, all these states need to gear up to make Izraeel abide by the International norms & the best option to create such a leverage is only if they go *NUCLEAR*
> Pakistan can provide substantial assistance to these states and it's a piece of cake, for all we know, Pakistani nuclear scientists might already be working on Iranian nukes. Secondly even the Americans are clueless about the locations of our nuclear stock piles............... get the drift?



According to media and academic reports, Israel has nuclear weapons since 1967! If it was a real aggressor it could have annihilate all ME countries several times in the last 40 years. This cannot be accepted as a rationale reason for Iran to develop nuclear weapons, while unlike Arab countries Israel does not even have any conflict with Iran - no disputed territories, no refugees, nothing! If you choose to be deceived by Iranian propaganda that is your problem. 

It is like Armenia or Ethiopia or Cyprus would say they need nuclear weapons because they fear that Israel has nuclear weapons. It makes no sense.

Israel respects the territorial sovereignty of all its neighbours, except when their territory is being used for attacks against Israel. Sorry, Israel cannot accept attacks on its territory and let her civilians and soldiers to be killed just to satisfy someone from Islamabad who does not experience this reality.

Again, Your nuclear weapons programme is pretty much penetrated by foreign intelligence services, like Iran's nuclear programme. Hiding a stockpile is one thing (although I have reasons to believe that this is no secret either), transferring nuclear weapons to other countries is different thing - too many people are involved from both countries and it would be revealed. Drop this immoral and crazy idea if you do not want to inflict pain on your country.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> According to media and academic reports, Israel has nuclear weapons since 1967! If it was a real aggressor it could have annihilate all ME countries several times in the last 40 years. This cannot be accepted as a rationale reason for Iran to develop nuclear weapons, while unlike Arab countries Israel does not even have any conflict with Iran - no disputed territories, no refugees, nothing! If you choose to be deceived by Iranian propaganda that is your problem.
> 
> It is like Armenia or Ethiopia or Cyprus would say they need nuclear weapons because they fear that Israel has nuclear weapons. It makes no sense.
> 
> Israel respects the territorial sovereignty of all its neighbours, except when their territory is being used for attacks against Israel. Sorry, Israel cannot accept attacks on its territory and let her civilians and soldiers to be killed just to satisfy someone from Islamabad who does not experience this reality.
> 
> Again, Your nuclear weapons programme is pretty much penetrated by foreign intelligence services, like Iran's nuclear programme. Hiding a stockpile is one thing (although I have reasons to believe that this is no secret either), transferring nuclear weapons to other countries is different thing - too many people are involved from both countries and it would be revealed. Drop this immoral and crazy idea if you do not want to inflict pain on your country.


*
Israel can have WMDs but it's neighbours can't, sell your hypocrisy somewhere else!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Israel can have WMDs but it's neighbours can't, sell your hypocrisy somewhere else!*


 
Concentrate on the rights of the Lamas in Nepal, leave the important issues to others, it is beyond your intellectual capacity.

You support that every country in the world could have nukes, beside Israel. Isn't that hypocrisy, my dear anti-Semite?


----------



## silko

secularbuster said:


> *
> Israel can have WMDs but it's neighbours can't, sell your hypocrisy somewhere else!*


 
it's neighbours don't want it either!


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Concentrate on the rights of the Lamas in Nepal, leave the important issues to others, it is beyond your intellectual capacity.
> 
> You support that every country in the world could have nukes, beside Israel. Isn't that hypocrisy, my dear anti-Semite?


*
Mr. shylock, I said if israel could have it so could its neighbours. Must you always twist what others say?*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Mr. shylock, I said if israel could have it so could its neighbours. Must you always twist what others say?*


 
So you do not care that Israel has nukes? Good for you! Please convince the other Anti-Semites.

So you want every country in the world to have nukes?


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## lem34

You are a Zionist waste of space. Sorry to say but you seem a bit dim as well. your posts are also aggresive and bully like. We would not be allowed on the idf webpage and do what this forum allows you to do.There is no point in arguing or rationally discussing anything with you. You pepper your posts and label people as racist calling them anti semites that do not agree with you.Yet the religion you follows is not egalitarian it does not welcome non jews and your rabbis teach that killing a non jew is the same as swatting a fly. Islam on the other hand welcomes anyone into its fold. In fact the more I think about it there is a strong case that hinduism and the jewish religion are racist,

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> According to media and academic reports, Israel has nuclear weapons since 1967! If it was a real aggressor it could have annihilate all ME countries several times in the last 40 years. This cannot be accepted as a rationale reason for Iran to develop nuclear weapons, while unlike Arab countries Israel does not even have any conflict with Iran - no disputed territories, no refugees, nothing! If you choose to be deceived by Iranian propaganda that is your problem.
> 
> It is like Armenia or Ethiopia or Cyprus would say they need nuclear weapons because they fear that Israel has nuclear weapons. It makes no sense.
> 
> Israel respects the territorial sovereignty of all its neighbours, except when their territory is being used for attacks against Israel. Sorry, Israel cannot accept attacks on its territory and let her civilians and soldiers to be killed just to satisfy someone from Islamabad who does not experience this reality.
> 
> Again, Your nuclear weapons programme is pretty much penetrated by foreign intelligence services, like Iran's nuclear programme. Hiding a stockpile is one thing (although I have reasons to believe that this is no secret either), transferring nuclear weapons to other countries is different thing - too many people are involved from both countries and it would be revealed. Drop this immoral and crazy idea if you do not want to inflict pain on your country.


 
So are you admitting that the world knew since ages that Israel had nukes, but continues to remain silent on this issue? It only exposes western hypocrisy, and all the more reason for these states to develop nukes to preserve their territorial integrity.
*Did Israel ever violate airspace of Cyprus and Ethiopia?* the answer is *NO*. So here goes you analogy right in the dustbin  .
Isarel and her territory?  Biggest joke ever, we all know how territories become Israeli; By forceful evacuation of Palestinians. So lets not go there and stick to the topic at hand.
O waoo! our nuclear programme has not been penetrated by any means, you have no idea what you are blabbering about, so can you provide me the exact figures and locations of Pakistani nuclear stock pile?
Few months back some American descent terrorists were caught from the outskirts of sargodha, that was miles away from cantt area? and you are saying that they have been penetrated lol please keep your subjective judgments out of this arguement, we developed nukes in mid 80's but the world came to knew about them in late 90's, we smuggled nuclear technology from Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands, so we can't send that to our neighboring country?  Think twice, you are living in a delusional world.


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## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> So you do not care that Israel has nukes? Good for you! Please convince the other Anti-Semites.
> 
> So you want every country in the world to have nukes?


 
Look at yourself here, any country who points a finger at izzraeel for illegally possessing nukes is antisemitic . and the world says that we have extremists lol


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> So you do not care that Israel has nukes? Good for you! Please convince the other Anti-Semites.
> 
> So you want every country in the world to have nukes?


*
Shylock, calling people anti-semite won't stop them from calling israel what it is, a rogue state.*


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## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> Look at yourself here, any country who points a finger at izzraeel for illegally possessing nukes is antisemitic . and the world says that we have extremists lol


 
Not every country, of course, only this (secular)buster(ed).

You probably think that Israel should dismantle from WMD, but as long you can logically explain it with no prejudice against Israel, then your opinion should be respected (for example if you are in favour of dismantling all WMD of all countries). Someone who single out Israel and discriminate it and judge it with much more severe parameters than he would judge other countries is an anti-Semite.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Shylock, calling people anti-semite won't stop them from calling israel what it is, a rogue state.*


 
Yada Yada Yada. 

Did you find other oppressive animals out their that their rights are jeopardised in Israel - Goats? Sheep? Duck-sons?

Maybe you should expand your struggle to the right of plants too - what about the poor begonia of Israel? Fight for their rights too!


----------



## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> You are a Zionist waste of space. Sorry to say but you seem a bit dim as well. your posts are also aggresive and bully like. We would not be allowed on the idf webpage and do what this forum allows you to do.There is no point in arguing or rationally discussing anything with you. You pepper your posts and label people as racist calling them anti semites that do not agree with you.Yet the religion you follows is not egalitarian it does not welcome non jews and your rabbis teach that killing a non jew is the same as swatting a fly. Islam on the other hand welcomes anyone into its fold. In fact the more I think about it there is a strong case that hinduism and the jewish religion are racist,


 
I advise you not to discuss Jewish religions. I am not a religious myself, but you clearly do not understand anything about it. 

This is a thread in Israel's so called nukes, let's stick to that. You say that I am a bully, try me: post whatever you want on the subject in a polite and rational way and see my reply. I only condemn people like the buster(ed) who treat others in a humiliating manner. You can follow back the thread and see what I am talking about.

If you post a reply which is rational and logic and you are willing to listen and to discuss, you should not have any problem with me, even if I disagree with you. You can try and see for yourself - I am here to discuss not to troll or spread hate, like our rude friend.


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> So are you admitting that the world knew since ages that Israel had nukes, but continues to remain silent on this issue? It only exposes western hypocrisy, and all the more reason for these states to develop nukes to preserve their territorial integrity.
> *Did Israel ever violate airspace of Cyprus and Ethiopia?* the answer is *NO*. So here goes you analogy right in the dustbin  .
> Isarel and her territory?  Biggest joke ever, we all know how territories become Israeli; By forceful evacuation of Palestinians. So lets not go there and stick to the topic at hand.
> O waoo! our nuclear programme has not been penetrated by any means, you have no idea what you are blabbering about, so can you provide me the exact figures and locations of Pakistani nuclear stock pile?
> Few months back some American descent terrorists were caught from the outskirts of sargodha, that was miles away from cantt area? and you are saying that they have been penetrated lol please keep your subjective judgments out of this arguement, we developed nukes in mid 80's but the world came to knew about them in late 90's, we smuggled nuclear technology from Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands, so we can't send that to our neighboring country?  Think twice, you are living in a delusional world.



It is a common knowledge that Israel has nukes since 1967, and still no country in the ME was threatened by Israel's nukes until today!

The approach of US and Europe are quite reasonable in light of the circumstances. It is quite complicated and it is not the issue of this thread. It can be said that particularly since the end of the Cold War (but also earlier) the US is concentrated on preventing rogue states from acquiring nuclear weapons, countries which might use these capabilities to destabilise the international system and threat other countries. Iran answer to the definition, like Venezuela, Myanmar, Sudan, Libya, and North Korea. In all these countries you have dictatorial/authoritative regimes which oppress their own people and have some ambitions to destabilise their own region and global order. 

Israel does not answer to the definition because it do not use its WMD to threaten its neighbours, does not launch terror attacks, and does not interfere in theirs internal affairs. And no, Israel's policies on the Palestinian issue are not terror, I can argue about that but that is not the topic of this thread.

so the West is less worried about Israel, like it was less worried about India and its nuclear weapons programme even back in the 1970's and 1980's when it was hostile to the US in light of its Non-Alignment policy. It only sanctioned India when it conducted nuclear tests in 1998.

Regarding your claim about air violation, I am not familiar with any such thing, please post your evidence - I hope it would not turn out as the nuclear submarine nonsense... Anyway, air violations are not a strong enough reason to develop nuclear weapons. The fact remains: Israel has no conflict with Iran like it has no conflict with Ethiopia, so the Iranian try to deceive in the propaganda about Israel as a threat. And some people (apparently, like yourself) choose to believe these ferry tales. 

If you do not think that Israel is entitle for its own territory, e.g. has the basic right of every country to exist and defend itself, so what do you want to discuss with me exactly? If you do not recognise my country's right to exist, there is no bases for our discussion.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there are evidence that Pakistan's nuclear programme is penetrated by intelligence services. Of course I do not know the details (and if I did, I would not publish it...), however a lot of Pakistani officials were recruited by foreign spy agencies, including military officers (just see the last example of an army major who worked for the CIA and helped to capture OBL). Furthermore, the US and other countries watch Pakistan with satellites, and especially its nuclear facilities and nuclear weapons - for example, the Americans knew that Pakistan moved its nuclear weapons during the Kargil crisis in 1999. Furthermore, there are much more evidence about the intelligence penetration into Iran's nuclear programme.

You know perhaps better than I do about the wide spread of corruption in Pakistan's government and military, and intelligence services could exploit it. 

BTW, the US knew that Pakistan is developing nuclear weapons already in the 1970's! And Pakistan's nuclear smuggling were exposed a very short time after they took place. You can send your nukes to Iran, but it would be revealed quite quickly, and Pakistan would pay the price


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It is a common knowledge that Israel has nukes since 1967, and still no country in the ME was threatened by Israel's nukes until today!
> 
> The approach of US and Europe are quite reasonable in light of the circumstances. It is quite complicated and it is not the issue of this thread. It can be said that particularly since the end of the Cold War (but also earlier) the US is concentrated on preventing rogue states from acquiring nuclear weapons, countries which might use these capabilities to destabilise the international system and threat other countries. Iran answer to the definition, like Venezuela, Myanmar, Sudan, Libya, and North Korea. In all these countries you have dictatorial/authoritative regimes which oppress their own people and have some ambitions to destabilise their own region and global order.
> 
> Israel does not answer to the definition because it do not use its WMD to threaten its neighbours, does not launch terror attacks, and does not interfere in theirs internal affairs. And no, Israel's policies on the Palestinian issue are not terror, I can argue about that but that is not the topic of this thread.
> 
> so the West is less worried about Israel, like it was less worried about India and its nuclear weapons programme even back in the 1970's and 1980's when it was hostile to the US in light of its Non-Alignment policy. It only sanctioned India when it conducted nuclear tests in 1998.
> 
> Regarding your claim about air violation, I am not familiar with any such thing, please post your evidence - I hope it would not turn out as the nuclear submarine nonsense... Anyway, air violations are not a strong enough reason to develop nuclear weapons. The fact remains: Israel has no conflict with Iran like it has no conflict with Ethiopia, so the Iranian try to deceive in the propaganda about Israel as a threat. And some people (apparently, like yourself) choose to believe these ferry tales.
> 
> If you do not think that Israel is entitle for its own territory, e.g. has the basic right of every country to exist and defend itself, so what do you want to discuss with me exactly? If you do not recognise my country's right to exist, there is no bases for our discussion.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you, but there are evidence that Pakistan's nuclear programme is penetrated by intelligence services. Of course I do not know the details (and if I did, I would not publish it...), however a lot of Pakistani officials were recruited by foreign spy agencies, including military officers (just see the last example of an army major who worked for the CIA and helped to capture OBL). Furthermore, the US and other countries watch Pakistan with satellites, and especially its nuclear facilities and nuclear weapons - for example, the Americans knew that Pakistan moved its nuclear weapons during the Kargil crisis in 1999. Furthermore, there are much more evidence about the intelligence penetration into Iran's nuclear programme.
> 
> You know perhaps better than I do about the wide spread of corruption in Pakistan's government and military, and intelligence services could exploit it.
> 
> BTW, the US knew that Pakistan is developing nuclear weapons already in the 1970's! And Pakistan's nuclear smuggling were exposed a very short time after they took place. You can send your nukes to Iran, but it would be revealed quite quickly, and Pakistan would pay the price


*
It is a common knowledge how the israeli argument works, the way israel and the west arm themselves do not threaten anyone but when others arm themselves to preserve themselves that threatens the west and israel. Shylock, you can try for million years to sell this hypocrisy but it won't sell here anymore, enough of your wicked logic, everytime you post your wickedness you can be sure of an appropriate reply, I personally give you that assurance. So far have I turned you down? Now, you can post whatever you want from your evil empire but you'll get a reply, be sure of that.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> It is a common knowledge how the israeli argument works, the way israel and the west arm themselves do not threaten anyone but when others arm themselves to preserve themselves that threatens the west and israel. Shylock, you can try for million years to sell this hypocrisy but it won't sell here anymore, enough of your wicked logic, everytime you post your wickedness you can be sure of an appropriate reply, I personally give you that assurance. So far have I turned you down? Now, you can post whatever you want from your evil empire but you'll get a reply, be sure of that.*



Now I am scared: oh no, the anti-Semite buster(ed) will publish his foolish replies, what will I do? Help!

What is your next step to harm yourself? If I dismiss your pathetic threat you will expose yourself not just as a degenerate anti-Semite, but also as an infantile?

You can continue with your stupidity and mendacity, be my guest, I could not care less.


----------



## lem34

nirreich said:


> Now I am scared: oh no, the anti-Semite buster(ed) will publish his foolish replies, what will I do? Help!
> 
> What is your next step to harm yourself? If I dismiss your pathetic threat you will expose yourself not just as a degenerate anti-Semite, but also as an infantile?
> 
> You can continue with your stupidity and mendacity, be my guest, I could not care less.



What is the matter with you. Are you above criticism for the war crimes of idf. On almost every time I see your posts you are calling people names like anti semites. I have been on the israeli defence forum and you know so much for free speech they wouldnt allow anyone speaking against israel justifiable or not. Shows how tolerant we are to other points of view and how intolerant you lot are.


----------



## lem34

Oh and by the way long live hamas the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people.


----------



## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> What is the matter with you. Are you above criticism for the war crimes of idf. On almost every time I see your posts you are calling people names like anti semites. I have been on the israeli defence forum and you know so much for free speech they wouldnt allow anyone speaking against israel justifiable or not. Shows how tolerant we are to other points of view and how intolerant you lot are.


 
What is the matter with you!

You decided to defend the troll who never answer or talk to point, who is proud in his anti-Semitism. I call him what he is proud to be. 

What do you want from me? I am expressing my views in this forum, and I am ready to discuss them. As I suggest it to you before, try me. If your posts are logical and to the point, you would not have any problem with me.

I am not responsible for the Israeli forum or whatever it is, so you came to the wrong address. Regarding freedom of speech, as you could witness, the buster(ed) threatens to annoy me for expressing my opinion - not that it made any impression on me, by you are defending him! You are not doing me a favour by letting me writing my opinion, so it is quite absurd that you expect me to be grateful for that. I have the same rights as you in PDF. 

If you want to discuss IDF, this is not the proper thread, I have no problem to discuss it with you in the appropriate thread, just let me know. Same goes for your enthusiasm from the Nazi organisation known as Hamas. This is a thread about Israel allegedly nuclear weapons, so stick to the issue.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Now I am scared: oh no, the anti-Semite buster(ed) will publish his foolish replies, what will I do? Help!
> 
> What is your next step to harm yourself? If I dismiss your pathetic threat you will expose yourself not just as a degenerate anti-Semite, but also as an infantile?
> 
> You can continue with your stupidity and mendacity, be my guest, I could not care less.


*
Listen shylock, you're such a coward that when people expose your hypocrisy you resort to playing the victim game, you feel threatened at every step but don't see the threat coming from the lies of people like you. People like you think that their country has the right to build every kind of WMDs but others don't and then you go on screaming 'where is my hypocrisy?' You're without shame and those who are like you are disgrace to mankind.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Listen shylock, you're such a coward that when people expose your hypocrisy you resort to playing the victim game, you feel threatened at every step but don't see the threat coming from the lies of people like you. People like you think that their country has the right to build every kind of WMDs but others don't and then you go on screaming 'where is my hypocrisy?' You're without shame and those who are like you are disgrace to mankind.*


 
How can I be threatened by a little anti-Semite weasel like yourself? You are no challenge to debate because you afraid of the truth and run from any confrontation.

All you can do is repeat you nonsense I already refuted and blame me for not pretending to agree to your crap, like that every country in the world has the right for WMD except Israel. Now, a defender of human rights as yourself, is trying pathetically to intimidate me to stop expressing my opinion, is not that another hypocrisy of you? You cannot handle my arguments, so you are trying to hash me.

After all your deceits and lies reality did not change: Israel is lesser threat to the world than Bangladesh, and you have double standards for asking Israel to abide rules you do not ask other nuclear weapons countries, and while you support Iran in its objective to break the same rules you expect Israel to preserve. Hypocrisy at its best.


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## lem34

Get off the forum and go do your day job killing innocent defenceless arab women and children


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> How can I be threatened by a little anti-Semite weasel like yourself? You are no challenge to debate because you afraid of the truth and run from any confrontation.
> 
> All you can do is repeat you nonsense I already refuted and blame me for not pretending to agree to your crap, like that every country in the world has the right for WMD except Israel. Now, a defender of human rights as yourself, is trying pathetically to intimidate me to stop expressing my opinion, is not that another hypocrisy of you? You cannot handle my arguments, so you are trying to hash me.
> 
> After all your deceits and lies reality did not change: Israel is lesser threat to the world than Bangladesh, and you have double standards for asking Israel to abide rules you do not ask other nuclear weapons countries, and while you support Iran in its objective to break the same rules you expect Israel to preserve. Hypocrisy at its best.


*
Make up your mind, first you say I threatened you then you say how can I be threatened, shylock you've lost it, you're having a stroke, your evilness has let you down, go see a psychiatrist.*


----------



## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> Get off the forum and go do your day job killing innocent defenceless arab women and children


 
No chance!

You can get off or suffer reality in your face!


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Make up your mind, first you say I threatened you then you say how can I be threatened, shylock you've lost it, you're having a stroke, your evilness has let you down, go see a psychiatrist.*


 
You should know better than me about psychiatrists.

Now you lie about what you already said? how lower can you go further?

You did threaten to prevent me from saying my opinion, but your threat was so pathetic, like your anti-Semite opinions.

I know that truth hurts to you and your kind, but I am going to continue to express it! Israel allegedly WMD are a lesser threat to the world than Bangladesh.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> No chance!
> 
> You can get off or suffer reality in your face!



*Reality is driving you insane shylock!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Reality is driving you insane shylock!*


 
Reality is own my side: Israel has the right to exist and defend itself and its allegedly WMD are a lesser threat to the world than Bangladesh.

On your side there is only anti-Semitism.


----------



## lem34

I think we should ignore zionist trolls. Let him talk to himself.


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## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> I think we should ignore zionist trolls. Let him talk to himself.


 
How can I be the troll when you and the buster(ed) never said anything significant and did not argue on your opinions?

Not liking what I have to say does not make me a troll. But you can run from any discussion, like your anti-Semite friend.

Until you stop running away my arguments are not challenged: Israel is no threat to the world and you all should concentrate on other nuclear threats, like Iran, Pakistan and North Korea.

Hence, without any real objection to my opinions, I ask the moderator to close this thread.


----------



## secularbuster

Aryan_B said:


> I think we should ignore zionist trolls. Let him talk to himself.


*
And give this zionist nazi the last say, that's a no no. I want to see how long he can lie.*


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Reality is own my side: Israel has the right to exist and defend itself and its allegedly WMD are a lesser threat to the world than Bangladesh.
> 
> On your side there is only anti-Semitism.



*The zionist WMDs are the real threat to world peace!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> And give this zionist nazi the last say, that's a no no. I want to see how long he can lie.*


 
Dear moderator, as you can see, this troll is not here to argue or discuss this thread, and he is the only one here. I think it would be best that you close this thread for moderation. No one is ready to discuss this issue anyway.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *The zionist WMDs are the real threat to world peace!*


 
Why? Just because you are an anti-Semite? That is not a good enough reason.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Dear moderator, as you can see, this troll is not here to argue or discuss this thread, and he is the only one here. I think it would be best that you close this thread for moderation. No one is ready to discuss this issue anyway.


*
Moderator can see how desperate you are too avoid this important topic. The israeli WMDs are the mother and father of all threat and you want the forum to close this thread. *


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Moderator can see how desperate you are too avoid this important topic. The israeli WMDs are the mother and father of all threat and you want the forum to close this thread. *


 
I want to close this thread because not you and not anybody else discuss the issue, you only repeat your slogans and do not explain or debate them.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I want to close this thread because not you and not anybody else discuss the issue, you only repeat your slogans and do not explain or debate them.


*
You repeat your lies, so the truth needs to repeated as well.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> You repeat your lies, so the truth needs to repeated as well.*


 
I repeat my questions for you to explain your opinion and you did not answer any one of them, only you repeat like a robot on the same rubbish I have already proved as lies.

Dear moderator, I think it would be best to close this thread as no discussion is taking place here.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I repeat my questions for you to explain your opinion and you did not answer any one of them, only you repeat like a robot on the same rubbish I have already proved as lies.
> 
> Dear moderator, I think it would be best to close this thread as no discussion is taking place here.


*
The thread won't close but you can refrain from selling your lies.*Here's material for discussion;

Israel and weapons of mass destruction

Israel is widely believed to possess weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).[1] The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.[2] Officially Israel neither confirms nor denies possessing nuclear weapons.
Contents
[hide]

1 Nuclear weapons
2 Chemical weapons
3 Biological weapons
4 References
5 External links

[edit] Nuclear weapons
Main article: Nuclear weapons and Israel

It is believed that Israel had possessed an operational nuclear weapons capability by 1967, with the mass production of warheads occurring after the Six-Day War.[2] Although no official statistics exist, it has been estimated that Israel possesses from 75 to as many as 400 nuclear weapons, which are reported to include thermonuclear weapons in the megaton range.[3][4][5] Israel is also reported to possess a wide range of different systems, including neutron bombs, tactical nuclear weapons, and suitcase nukes.[6] Delivery mechanisms include Jericho intercontinental ballistic missiles, with a range of 11,500 km, and which are believed to provide an underground second-strike option.[7][8] Additionally, Israel is believed to have an offshore nuclear second-strike capability, using submarine launched nuclear-capable cruise missiles.[9] The Israeli government maintains a policy of deliberate ambiguity on whether it has nuclear weapons, saying only that it would not be the first to "introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East."[10] Former International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei regarded Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons.[11] Much of what is known about Israel's nuclear program comes from revelations in 1986 by Mordechai Vanunu, a technician at the Negev Nuclear Research Center in Dimona, who served an 18-year jail sentence as a result. Israel has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but supports establishment of a Middle East Zone free of weapons of mass destruction.[12]
[edit] Chemical weapons

Israel has signed but not ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC).[13] There are speculations that a chemical weapons program might be located at the Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR) in Ness Ziona.[14]

190 liters of dimethyl methylphosphonate, a CWC schedule 2 chemical used in the synthesis of Sarin nerve gas, was discovered in the cargo of El Al Flight 1862 after it crashed in 1992 en route to Tel Aviv. Israel insisted the material was non-toxic, was to have been used to test filters that protect against chemical weapons, and that it had been clearly listed on the cargo manifest in accordance with international regulations. The shipment was from a U.S. chemical plant to the IIBR under a U.S. Department of Commerce license.[15]

In 1993, the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment WMD proliferation assessment recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared offensive chemical warfare capabilities.[2] Former US deputy assistant secretary of defense responsible for chemical and biological defense, Bill Richardson, said in 1998 "I have no doubt that Israel has worked on both chemical and biological offensive things for a long time ... There's no doubt they've had stuff for years."[16]
[edit] Biological weapons

Israel is believed to have developed an offensive biological warfare capability.[2] The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment records Israel as a country possessing a long-term, undeclared biological warfare program.[2] Israel is not a signatory to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC).[17] It is assumed that the Israel Institute for Biological Research in Ness Ziona develops vaccines and antidotes for chemical and biological warfare.[18] It has not been possible to conclude whether Israel currently maintains an offensive biological weapons program: it is speculated that Israel's retains an active ability to produce and disseminate biological weapons.[19]
[edit] References

^ "Background Information, 2005 Review Conference of the Parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". United Nations. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
^ a b c d e Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction: Assessing the Risks. U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment. August 1993. OTA-ISC-559. Retrieved 2008-12-09
^ http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/090316_israelistrikeiran.pdf
^ Brower, Kenneth S., &#8220;A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East,&#8221; Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.
^ "Nuclear Weapons: Who Has What at a Glance". Arms Control Association. Retrieved 2007-05-30.
^ Hersh, Seymour M. The Samson Option. New York: Random House, 1991. ISBN 0-394-57006-5 p.220
^ Plushnick-Masti, Ramit (2006-08-25). "Israel Buys 2 Nuclear-Capable Submarines". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
^ http://www.scribd.com/doc/6088311/Missile-Survey-Ballistic-and-Cruise-Missiles-of-Foreign-Countries
^ Alon Ben-David (1 October 2009). "Israel seeks sixth Dolphin in light of Iranian 'threat'". Defence Weekly. Retrieved 2009-11-03.
^ Dawoud, Khaled (1999-12-02). "Redefining the bomb". Al-Ahram Weekly. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
^ Mohamed ElBaradei (27 July 2004). "Transcript of the Director General's Interview with Al-Ahram News". International Atomic Energy Agency. Retrieved 2007-06-03.
^ "43 nations to seek Middle East free of WMDs". San Francisco Chronicle. 2008-07-13. Retrieved 2008-07-13.[dead link]
^ United Nations Treaty Collection. Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction. Accessed 14 January 2009.
^ Avner Cohen. "Israel and Chemical/Biological Weapons: History, Deterrence, and Arms Control". Retrieved 2010-04-27
^ "Israel says El Al crash chemical 'non-toxic'". BBC. 1998-10-02. Archived from the original on 2003-08-18. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
^ Jeff Stein (1998-12-02). "Debunking the "ethno-bomb"". Salon.com. Retrieved 2006-07-11.
^ "Membership of the Biological Weapons Convention". United Nations Office At Geneva. Retrieved 12 March 2011.
^ "Nes Ziyyona". GlobalSecurity.org. April 28, 2005. Retrieved 2007-02-11. "Israel is believed to have the capacity to produce chemical warfare agents, and probably has stocks of bombs, rockets, and artillery shells. Public reports that a mustard and nerve gas production facility was established in 1982 in the Dimona restricted area are apparently erroneous. Israel is also probably poised to rapidly produce biological weapons, though there are no public reports of currently active production effort or associated locations.&#8230;Israel's primary chemical and biological warfare facility is at Nes Ziyyona [Noss Ziona], near Tel Aviv. The Israeli Institute for Bio-Technology is believed to be the home of both offensive and defensive research."
^ Normark, Magnus; Anders Lindblad, Anders Norqvist, Björn Sandström, and Louise Waldenström (December 2005). "Israel and WMD: Incentives and Capabilities" (PDF). FOI. pp. pg. 38. Retrieved 2007-02-11. "Israel does not stockpile or produce BW in large-scale today. However, we assess that Israel has a breakout capability for biological weapons and also CW, i.e. the knowledge needed to implement theoretical knowledge into the practical management of production and deployment of CBW. The knowledge base would be the one that was built during the 1950s and 1960s where today&#8217;s advanced research can be used to upgrade potential BW and CW agents and their behaviour in the environment. We have not found any conclusive evidence that show that Israel&#8217;s offensive programs still remain active today."

[edit] External links

Israel Crosses the Threshold, National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 189, by Avner Cohen and William Burr, April 28, 2006 (originally published at Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, May/June 2006)
Bibliography of Israeli Nuclear Science Publications by Mark Gorwitz, June 2005
Israeli Nuclear Forces, 2002, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, September/October 2002
The Bomb That Never Is, by Avner Cohen, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, May/June 2000, Vol 56, No. 3 pp.22-23
Israel and the Bomb[1] (Columbia University press, 1998), including declassified documents.
Obsessive secrecy undermines democracy By Reuven Pedatzur Ha'aretz. Tuesday, August 8, 2000 -- Cohen published "Israel and the Bomb" in the United States, and a Hebrew translation of the book has appeared here. In the eyes of the defense establishment, Cohen has committed a double sin.
Fighting to preserve the tattered veil of secrecy By Ronen Bergman The publication of Dr. Avner Cohen's book and of the Vanunu trial transcripts set off alarm bells for the Defense Ministry's chief of security, who is striving to protect the traditional opacity regarding Israel's nuclear affairs.
Blast, from the past to the present By Yirmiyahu Yovel Ha'aretz. 28 July 2000 -- If, in the context of the peace agreements and talks with the United States, Israel were to confirm its nuclear capability - while committing itself to no nuclear testing and pledging to build its defense system on conventional weapons as in the past - maybe then it might achieve at least de facto recognition, if not international legitimacy, for its nuclear weaponry, to be used only as a "last resort" and a tool for safeguarding peace after Israel withdraws.
The Third Temple's Holy Of Holies: Israel's Nuclear Weapons Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army, September 1999
Israel: Plutonium Production The Risk Report Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996).
Israel: Uranium Processing and Enrichment The Risk Report Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996).
Israel The Nuclear Potential of Individual Countries Treaty on Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons Problems of Extension Appendix 2 Russian Federation Foreign Intelligence Service 6 April 1995
The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy Seymour M Hersh, [New York: Random House, 1991]


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> The thread won't close but you can refrain from selling your lies.*


 
Let me enlightened you how a discussion goes with other people than just with yourself.

I argue something, until you did not logically refute my claim, it is valid. If you argue and I ask you questions and ask for proofs and you cannot answer that or deliver the desired proofs, then your claims are nonsense.

And that is the situation right now: if you think I lie, bring proofs or rationale arguments to the contrary. Until then, you remain just and anti-Semite and a deceiver.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Let me enlightened you how a discussion goes with other people than just with yourself.
> 
> I argue something, until you did not logically refute my claim, it is valid. If you argue and I ask you questions and ask for proofs and you cannot answer that or deliver the desired proofs, then your claims are nonsense.
> 
> And that is the situation right now: if you think I lie, bring proofs or rationale arguments to the contrary. Until then, you remain just and anti-Semite and a deceiver.


* 
That the israeli WMDs do not pose a threat, is a lie and your attempt to close the thread is a proof of that.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> The thread won't close but you can refrain from selling your lies.*Here's material for discussion;
> 
> Israel and weapons of mass destruction
> 
> Israel is widely believed to possess weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).[1] The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.[2] Officially Israel neither confirms nor denies possessing nuclear weapons.
> Contents
> [hide]
> 
> 
> 1 Nuclear weapons
> 2 Chemical weapons
> 3 Biological weapons
> 4 References
> 5 External links
> 
> [edit] Nuclear weapons
> Main article: Nuclear weapons and Israel
> 
> It is believed that Israel had possessed an operational nuclear weapons capability by 1967, with the mass production of warheads occurring after the Six-Day War.[2] Although no official statistics exist, it has been estimated that Israel possesses from 75 to as many as 400 nuclear weapons, which are reported to include thermonuclear weapons in the megaton range.[3][4][5] Israel is also reported to possess a wide range of different systems, including neutron bombs, tactical nuclear weapons, and suitcase nukes.[6] Delivery mechanisms include Jericho intercontinental ballistic missiles, with a range of 11,500 km, and which are believed to provide an underground second-strike option.[7][8] Additionally, Israel is believed to have an offshore nuclear second-strike capability, using submarine launched nuclear-capable cruise missiles.[9] The Israeli government maintains a policy of deliberate ambiguity on whether it has nuclear weapons, saying only that it would not be the first to "introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East."[10] Former International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei regarded Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons.[11] Much of what is known about Israel's nuclear program comes from revelations in 1986 by Mordechai Vanunu, a technician at the Negev Nuclear Research Center in Dimona, who served an 18-year jail sentence as a result. Israel has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but supports establishment of a Middle East Zone free of weapons of mass destruction.[12]
> [edit] Chemical weapons
> 
> Israel has signed but not ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC).[13] There are speculations that a chemical weapons program might be located at the Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR) in Ness Ziona.[14]
> 
> 190 liters of dimethyl methylphosphonate, a CWC schedule 2 chemical used in the synthesis of Sarin nerve gas, was discovered in the cargo of El Al Flight 1862 after it crashed in 1992 en route to Tel Aviv. Israel insisted the material was non-toxic, was to have been used to test filters that protect against chemical weapons, and that it had been clearly listed on the cargo manifest in accordance with international regulations. The shipment was from a U.S. chemical plant to the IIBR under a U.S. Department of Commerce license.[15]
> 
> In 1993, the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment WMD proliferation assessment recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared offensive chemical warfare capabilities.[2] Former US deputy assistant secretary of defense responsible for chemical and biological defense, Bill Richardson, said in 1998 "I have no doubt that Israel has worked on both chemical and biological offensive things for a long time ... There's no doubt they've had stuff for years."[16]
> [edit] Biological weapons
> 
> Israel is believed to have developed an offensive biological warfare capability.[2] The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment records Israel as a country possessing a long-term, undeclared biological warfare program.[2] Israel is not a signatory to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC).[17] It is assumed that the Israel Institute for Biological Research in Ness Ziona develops vaccines and antidotes for chemical and biological warfare.[18] It has not been possible to conclude whether Israel currently maintains an offensive biological weapons program: it is speculated that Israel's retains an active ability to produce and disseminate biological weapons.[19]
> [edit] References
> 
> ^ "Background Information, 2005 Review Conference of the Parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". United Nations. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
> ^ a b c d e Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction: Assessing the Risks. U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment. August 1993. OTA-ISC-559. Retrieved 2008-12-09
> ^ http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/090316_israelistrikeiran.pdf
> ^ Brower, Kenneth S., A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East, Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.
> ^ "Nuclear Weapons: Who Has What at a Glance". Arms Control Association. Retrieved 2007-05-30.
> ^ Hersh, Seymour M. The Samson Option. New York: Random House, 1991. ISBN 0-394-57006-5 p.220
> ^ Plushnick-Masti, Ramit (2006-08-25). "Israel Buys 2 Nuclear-Capable Submarines". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
> ^ Missile Survey: Ballistic and Cruise Missiles of Foreign Countries
> ^ Alon Ben-David (1 October 2009). "Israel seeks sixth Dolphin in light of Iranian 'threat'". Defence Weekly. Retrieved 2009-11-03.
> ^ Dawoud, Khaled (1999-12-02). "Redefining the bomb". Al-Ahram Weekly. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
> ^ Mohamed ElBaradei (27 July 2004). "Transcript of the Director General's Interview with Al-Ahram News". International Atomic Energy Agency. Retrieved 2007-06-03.
> ^ "43 nations to seek Middle East free of WMDs". San Francisco Chronicle. 2008-07-13. Retrieved 2008-07-13.[dead link]
> ^ United Nations Treaty Collection. Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction. Accessed 14 January 2009.
> ^ Avner Cohen. "Israel and Chemical/Biological Weapons: History, Deterrence, and Arms Control". Retrieved 2010-04-27
> ^ "Israel says El Al crash chemical 'non-toxic'". BBC. 1998-10-02. Archived from the original on 2003-08-18. Retrieved 2006-07-02.
> ^ Jeff Stein (1998-12-02). "Debunking the "ethno-bomb"". Salon.com. Retrieved 2006-07-11.
> ^ "Membership of the Biological Weapons Convention". United Nations Office At Geneva. Retrieved 12 March 2011.
> ^ "Nes Ziyyona". GlobalSecurity.org. April 28, 2005. Retrieved 2007-02-11. "Israel is believed to have the capacity to produce chemical warfare agents, and probably has stocks of bombs, rockets, and artillery shells. Public reports that a mustard and nerve gas production facility was established in 1982 in the Dimona restricted area are apparently erroneous. Israel is also probably poised to rapidly produce biological weapons, though there are no public reports of currently active production effort or associated locations.Israel's primary chemical and biological warfare facility is at Nes Ziyyona [Noss Ziona], near Tel Aviv. The Israeli Institute for Bio-Technology is believed to be the home of both offensive and defensive research."
> ^ Normark, Magnus; Anders Lindblad, Anders Norqvist, Björn Sandström, and Louise Waldenström (December 2005). "Israel and WMD: Incentives and Capabilities" (PDF). FOI. pp. pg. 38. Retrieved 2007-02-11. "Israel does not stockpile or produce BW in large-scale today. However, we assess that Israel has a breakout capability for biological weapons and also CW, i.e. the knowledge needed to implement theoretical knowledge into the practical management of production and deployment of CBW. The knowledge base would be the one that was built during the 1950s and 1960s where todays advanced research can be used to upgrade potential BW and CW agents and their behaviour in the environment. We have not found any conclusive evidence that show that Israels offensive programs still remain active today."
> 
> [edit] External links
> 
> Israel Crosses the Threshold, National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 189, by Avner Cohen and William Burr, April 28, 2006 (originally published at Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, May/June 2006)
> Bibliography of Israeli Nuclear Science Publications by Mark Gorwitz, June 2005
> Israeli Nuclear Forces, 2002, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, September/October 2002
> The Bomb That Never Is, by Avner Cohen, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, May/June 2000, Vol 56, No. 3 pp.22-23
> Israel and the Bomb[1] (Columbia University press, 1998), including declassified documents.
> Obsessive secrecy undermines democracy By Reuven Pedatzur Ha'aretz. Tuesday, August 8, 2000 -- Cohen published "Israel and the Bomb" in the United States, and a Hebrew translation of the book has appeared here. In the eyes of the defense establishment, Cohen has committed a double sin.
> Fighting to preserve the tattered veil of secrecy By Ronen Bergman The publication of Dr. Avner Cohen's book and of the Vanunu trial transcripts set off alarm bells for the Defense Ministry's chief of security, who is striving to protect the traditional opacity regarding Israel's nuclear affairs.
> Blast, from the past to the present By Yirmiyahu Yovel Ha'aretz. 28 July 2000 -- If, in the context of the peace agreements and talks with the United States, Israel were to confirm its nuclear capability - while committing itself to no nuclear testing and pledging to build its defense system on conventional weapons as in the past - maybe then it might achieve at least de facto recognition, if not international legitimacy, for its nuclear weaponry, to be used only as a "last resort" and a tool for safeguarding peace after Israel withdraws.
> The Third Temple's Holy Of Holies: Israel's Nuclear Weapons Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army, September 1999
> Israel: Plutonium Production The Risk Report Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996).
> Israel: Uranium Processing and Enrichment The Risk Report Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996).
> Israel The Nuclear Potential of Individual Countries Treaty on Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons Problems of Extension Appendix 2 Russian Federation Foreign Intelligence Service 6 April 1995
> The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy Seymour M Hersh, [New York: Random House, 1991]



OK, so? We all know now that you know how to do copy and paste on your computer. Is there any argument?

---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------




secularbuster said:


> *
> That the israeli WMDs do not pose a threat, is a lie and your attempt to close the thread is a proof of that.*


 
Why it is a lie? Because you say so?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> OK, so? We all know now that you know how to do copy and paste on your computer. Is there any argument?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Why it is a lie? Because you say so?



*It is a lie because we can see that it is a lie.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *It is a lie because we can see that it is a lie.*


 
What a well presented argument, you should be in the debating society of Harvard or Oxford.

Well, until you explain why it is a lie, it is a valid fact that Israel's allegedly WMD is no threat to anyone. 

If it is a lie you should not have any problem to explain why. If you cannot, I suggest the moderator to close this thread.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> What a well presented argument, you should be in the debating society of Harvard or Oxford.
> 
> Well, until you explain why it is a lie, it is a valid fact that Israel's allegedly WMD is no threat to anyone.
> 
> If it is a lie you should not have any problem to explain why. If you cannot, I suggest the moderator to close this thread.


*
I've explained to you that WMDs in the hands of a terrorist state like israel is a threat, there's nothing more to explain to a zionist.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> I've explained to you that WMDs in the hands of a terrorist state like israel is a threat, there's nothing more to explain to a zionist.*


 
You did not explain anything.

You did not explain how Israel is a terrorist state and why it is a terrorist state while other nuclear weapons countries are not - like Pakistan, China, and North Korea. And if they are also terrorist states, why you only against Israel.

You did not explain why you support Iran's nuclear ambitions although it is a human rights violator.

And you did not explain what is the threat of WMD in the hands of Israel.

Unlike you, I referred to all the above points and gave detailed explanations.

If all you can do is shouting slogans and not to explain them I think if it would be best that the moderator would close this thread for conversation - because no conversation is taking place.

BTW, I am proud to be a Zionist who can refute the lies of anti-Semites so easily.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You did not explain anything.
> 
> You did not explain how Israel is a terrorist state and why it is a terrorist state while other nuclear weapons countries are not - like Pakistan, China, and North Korea. And if they are also terrorist states, why you only against Israel.
> 
> You did not explain why you support Iran's nuclear ambitions although it is a human rights violator.
> 
> And you did not explain what is the threat of WMD in the hands of Israel.
> 
> Unlike you, I referred to all the above points and gave detailed explanations.
> 
> If all you can do is shouting slogans and not to explain them I think if it would be best that the moderator would close this thread for conversation - because no conversation is taking place.
> 
> BTW, I am proud to be a Zionist who can refute the lies of anti-Semites so easily.


*
I've explained and I repeat it, isreal is a terrorist entity and there lies the threat.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> I've explained and I repeat it, isreal is a terrorist entity and there lies the threat.*


 
You did not explain anything, you just keep repeating your old slogans.

Why Israel is a terrorist entity, and Iran? Or North Korea? Why it is a threat?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You did not explain anything, you just keep repeating your old slogans.
> 
> Why Israel is a terrorist entity, and Iran? Or North Korea? Why it is a threat?



*Israelis live in the stolen homeland of the Palestinians and they enjoy murdering Palestinian children and freedom fighters, that's why israel is a terrorist entity.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Israelis live in the stolen homeland of the Palestinians and they enjoy murdering Palestinian children and freedom fighters, that's why israel is a terrorist entity.*



There is not one word of truth in what you wrote.

No one murdering children. If by freedom fighters you mean suicide bombers, then they kill themselves. If you mean other terrorists who attacks innocent women and children, then they should be killed before they slaughtering more civilians. Israel did not steal anything from the Palestinians - you just do not know the history of the conflict. And of course you do not have any valid proof for your claims, only slogans.

All these issues are not part of this thread. We can discuss them on other relevant threads of your choice.

Let us continue with your rationale that Israel is a terrorist state and thus a threat. However, even you admit that its allegedly WMD are not in use in its "terrorism". So, what difference that it makes? Even without WMD Israel can "terrorise". What good would come out to disarm Israel while it can still "terrorise"?

You did not answer why you are focused on Israel and ignore all other cases of grossly human rights violations in Iran, Pakistan, China, and North Korea. If you are so concerned about human rights in Israel, you should equally be concerned with human rights in these countries. Why you cannot tolerate Israel with WMD, but you support the barbaric regime of Iran in its nuclear aspirations? Why you do not call Pakistan, China and North Korea to disarm? 

No matter how you twist it, you failed to answer simple questions and by that to explain your obsession with Israel.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> There is not one word of truth in what you wrote.
> 
> No one murdering children. If by freedom fighters you mean suicide bombers, then they kill themselves. If you mean other terrorists who attacks innocent women and children, then they should be killed before they slaughtering more civilians. Israel did not steal anything from the Palestinians - you just do not know the history of the conflict. And of course you do not have any valid proof for your claims, only slogans.
> 
> All these issues are not part of this thread. We can discuss them on other relevant threads of your choice.
> 
> Let us continue with your rationale that Israel is a terrorist state and thus a threat. However, even you admit that its allegedly WMD are not in use in its "terrorism". So, what difference that it makes? Even without WMD Israel can "terrorise". What good would come out to disarm Israel while it can still "terrorise"?
> 
> You did not answer why you are focused on Israel and ignore all other cases of grossly human rights violations in Iran, Pakistan, China, and North Korea. If you are so concerned about human rights in Israel, you should equally be concerned with human rights in these countries. Why you cannot tolerate Israel with WMD, but you support the barbaric regime of Iran in its nuclear aspirations? Why you do not call Pakistan, China and North Korea to disarm?
> 
> No matter how you twist it, you failed to answer simple questions and by that to explain your obsession with Israel.


*
There's no truth in what you say. It is not the topic but again you're the one who asked me to explain how israel was a terrorist entity and I showed you how. Go ahead, tell everybody that the israelis did not steal the homeland of the Palestinians. You eat lies, breathe lies, live lies. You're nothing but lies.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> There's no truth in what you say. It is not the topic but again you're the one who asked me to explain how israel was a terrorist entity and I showed you how. Go ahead, tell everybody that the israelis did not steal the homeland of the Palestinians. You eat lies, breathe lies, live lies. You're nothing but lies.*


 
As I wrote, I am in deep disagreement with your views about Israel, but I asked questions based on your own views - and you again failed to answer on them and preferred to stick to your slogans tactic:

If Israel is "terrorising" without WMD, what good would come out from its disarmament? It could still "terrorises".

If you are so concerned about human rights violations 4,000 Km away from your country, why you are not equally concerned about human rights violations by nuclear countries closer to you like Pakistan and China? Why you do not fight for their disarmament, only for Israel?

What about your support of Iran's nuclear ambitions although it has a barbaric regime?

Do the Iranians, the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the North Koreans deserve less than the Palestinians??? 

I have no problem to discuss the Arab-Israeli conflict and dismiss all your lies, like I did in this thread. In this thread I would not deviate from the topic. Choose any relevant thread you like, let me know and I will expose your deceitful arguments against Israel.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> As I wrote, I am in deep disagreement with your views about Israel, but I asked questions based on your own view - and you again failed to answer even one of them and you stick to your slogans tactic:
> 
> If Israel is "terrorising" without WMD, what good would come out from its disarmament? It could still "terrorise".
> 
> If you are so concerned about human rights violations 4,000 Km from your country, why you are not equally and deeply concerned about human violations of nuclear countries closer to you like Pakistan and China? Why you do not fight for their disarmament only for Israel?
> 
> What about your support in Iran's nuclear ambitions while it has a barbaric regime?
> 
> Do the Iranians, the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the North Koreans deserve less than the Palestinians???
> 
> I have no problem to discuss the Arab-Israeli conflict and dismiss all your lies, like I did in this thread, but in this thread I would not deviate from the topic. Choose any relevant thread you like, let me know and I will expose your deceitful arguments against Israel.


*
What are my lies? Show me if you can, I've shown again and again that it is you who is the liar. *


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> What are my lies? Show me if you can, I've shown again and again that it is you who is the liar. *


 
You constantly avoiding any answer to my questions and do not discuss anything. Your position is flawed and has no logic rationale, and with your avoidance to answer my questions you prove it yourself - you cannot defend your arguments, thus they are lies!

As I said, I am not going to deal with your lies about Israel and its conflict in this threat which is dedicated to other issue. Pick a relevant thread, let me know, and I will see you there!


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## TruthSeeker

Because of the irrational antisemitism of many Muslims, and especially Israel's immediate neighbors, it is absolutely necessary for Israel to maintain the credible possibility of nuclear retaliation against any military threat to its basic existence. IF Muslim nations would abandon their total hostility to the existence of a Jewish nation on historically Jewish soil, then Israel would not need to maintain the threat of nuclear *retaliation*. Any fair minded person understands that Israel's "threat" is entirely a defensive one. Israel, in effect, only "threatens" a credible second strike. On the other hand, nations such as North Korea threaten first nuclear strikes and Iran threatens to use nuclear weapons to shield itself from retaliation over its many proxy aggressions in the region. Israel's very national survival requires it to have a credible nuclear second strike capability. The UN charter gives every member nation the right of self-preservation. The IAEA has no jurisdiction in the matter and no right to interfere.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You constantly avoiding any answer to my questions and do not discuss anything. Your position is flawed and has no logic rationale, and with your avoidance to answer my questions you prove it yourself - you cannot defend your arguments, thus they are lies!
> 
> As I said, I am not going to deal with your lies about Israel and its conflict in this threat which is dedicated to other issue. Pick a relevant thread, let me know, and I will see you there!



*Shylock, you're avoiding my question. So, don't try to turn the table now, answer my question or accept that you're full of lies.* *Here's another proof of israeli crimes against humanity:

Last month, a report published in the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, accused Israeli soldiers of kidnapping Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip for their organs, indicating a possible link between the Israeli military and the mafia of human organs detected in the US. *


----------



## secularbuster

TruthSeeker said:


> Because if the irrational antisemitism of many Muslims, and especially Israel's immediate neighbors, it is absolutely necessary for Israel to maintain the credible possibility of nuclear retaliation against any military threat to its basic existence. IF Muslim nations would abandon their total hostility to the existence of a Jewish nation on historically Jewish soil, then Israel would not need to maintain the threat of nuclear *retaliation*. Any fair minded person understands that Israel's "threat" is entirely a defensive one. Israel, in effect, only "threatens" a credible second strike. On the other hand, nations such as North Korea threaten first nuclear strikes and Iran threatens to use nuclear weapons to shield itself from retaliation over its many proxy aggressions in the region. Israel's very national survival requires it to have a credible nuclear second strike capability. The UN charter gives every member nation the right of self-preservation. The IAEA has no jurisdiction in the matter and no right to interfere.



*Yeah, you're right IAEA has jurisdiction only over states the US considers as hostile. Israel's nuclear threat is a defensive one and Iraq's WMDs were an offensive threat. You're writing your own satanic verses. No wonder people call you the great satan.*


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## TruthSeeker

secularbuster said:


> *Yeah, you're right IAEA has jurisdiction only over states the US considers as hostile. Israel's nuclear threat is a defensive one and Iraq's WMDs were an offensive threat. You're writing your own satanic verses. No wonder people call you the great satan.*


 
If you are going to comment, at least have the intelligence to know the rules under which the IAEA functions. When you have done the necessary research you will find that the IAEA has no jurisdiction to investigate the nuclear activities of Israel. You are obviously a Muslim bigot. Only idiots call the US "the great satan". So, we can clearly see your mental capacities, nil.

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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Shylock, you're avoiding my question. So, don't try to turn the table now, answer my question or accept that you're full of lies.* *Here's another proof of israeli crimes against humanity:
> 
> Last month, a report published in the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, accused Israeli soldiers of kidnapping Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip for their organs, indicating a possible link between the Israeli military and the mafia of human organs detected in the US. *


 
What question I did not answer? I ask you questions and you continue to avoid any answer over the last 10 pages!!!

This ridiculous story you brought with no connection to the topic was already denied by all concerns. I challenge you to discuss your lies about Israel in another thread, but you cowardly avoid, like you cowardly avoids any answers or explanations about your position in this thread.

You know, although it is hard for an anti-Semite, you can still at least pretend that you are here for debate and not for trolling. 

With not any discussion by your side on the topic, it is possible to conclude that Israel is a peaceful country which does not pose a threat to anyone. The moderator should close this thread.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> What question I did not answer? I ask you questions and you continue to avoid any answer over the last 10 pages!!!
> 
> This ridiculous story you brought with no connection to the topic was already denied by all concerns. I challenge you to discuss your lies about Israel in another thread, but you cowardly avoid, like you cowardly avoids any answers or explanations about your position in this thread.
> 
> You know, although it is hard for an anti-Semite, you can still at least pretend that you are here for debate and not for trolling.
> 
> With not any discussion by your side on the topic, it is possible to conclude that Israel is a peaceful country which does not pose a threat to anyone. The moderator should close this thread.


*
Open your f******* eyes and see what question. I know shylock you don't want to answer the question. BTW what shylock calls ridiculous is not ridiculous at all. Shylock calls it ridiculous because it exposes the devilish nature of the characters like shylock.*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Open your f******* eyes and see what question. I know shylock you don't want to answer the question. BTW what shylock calls ridiculous is not ridiculous at all. Shylock calls it ridiculous because it exposes the devilish nature of the characters like shylock.*


 
Unlike myself, you are the most honest living person alive, right? So why you evade any reply to my questions??? Do I need to post them for the 100 time?!

Now, What is the question I did not answer? I have no idea, post it again and unlike you, I will refer to it, what ever it is.


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## secularbuster

TruthSeeker said:


> If you are going to comment, at least have the intelligence to know the rules under which the IAEA functions. When you have done the necessary research you will find that the IAEA has no jurisdiction to investigate the nuclear activities of Israel. You are obviously a Muslim bigot. Only idiots call the US "the great satan". So, we can clearly see your mental capacities, nil.


*
Who calls the israeli nukes acceptable is the biggest bigot of all. Your mental faculty matches that of the satan, hence you have this title 'the great satan'. Satan is very clever so you should be proud.*


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Unlike myself, you are the most honest living person alive, right? So why you evade any reply to my questions???
> 
> Now, What is the question I did not answer? I have no idea, post it again and unlike you, I will refer to it, what ever it is.


*
Me evading, not at all, I've explained a number of times why the israeli WMD is the greatest threat to peace. It is you who is evading my question.*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Who calls the israeli nukes acceptable is the biggest bigot of all. Your mental faculty matches that of the satan, hence you have this title 'the great satan'. Satan is very clever so you should be proud.*


 
Your comments to direct and sensible enquiries are an insult to intelligence. I am coming to the conclusion that you do not know what IAEA is.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Me evading, not at all, I've explained a number of times why the israeli WMD is the greatest threat to peace. It is you who is evading my question.*


 
Answer the questions I asked you and stop to be a coward. I see you mysteriously forgot you own question...


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Your comments to direct and sensible enquiries are an insult to intelligence. I am coming to the conclusion that you do not know what IAEA is.


*
Your conclusion is of zero value, the issue remains as it is and that is israel's WMDs pose the greatest threat to peace in the world. *

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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Your conclusion is of zero value, the issue remains as it is and that is israel's WMDs pose the greatest threat to peace in the world. *


 
Another cowardly attempt to evade any answers:

You did not explain how Israel is a terrorist state and why it is a terrorist state while other nuclear weapons countries are not - like Pakistan, China, and North Korea. And if they are also terrorist states, why you only against Israel.

You did not explain why you support Iran's nuclear ambitions although it is a human rights violator.

And you did not explain what is the threat of WMD in the hands of Israel.


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## silko

nirreich please, please stop feading the troll!

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## nirreich

silko said:


> nirreich please, please stop feading the troll!


 
OK, I will. I guess you right and there is no hope.

Sorry.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> OK, I will. I guess you right and there is no hope.
> 
> Sorry.


* 
You're right, there's no hope for the israeli double-standard. If israel stops terrorism we'll think about being nice.*


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## ahsanraza81

*bht afssos ke baat hai k ager koi musalman hakoomut atomic dhamakey kerey tu deshutgerd kehelway aur ager koi yahoodi aur nisaar kerey tu koi masla nahe...yeh kahan ka insaaf hai...

khud kererein tu taraqe passand aur koi aur kerey tu "museebut"*


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## Tshering22

secularbuster said:


> *
> You're right, there's no hope for the israeli double-standard. If israel stops terrorism we'll think about being nice.*


 
Erm.. what do you mean by "we" here? It is not as if having no ties with Bangladesh is actually costing them any serious losses.  Just a question. The thing is, IAEA is not going to check Israeli nukes simply because whether they have it or not itself is not out in the open. Call it double standard or whatever, but they are smarter than either us or Pakistan in keeping their programme under wraps and keep the world guessing. If anyone has any idea about them having the nukes it is because of that Samson Option of theirs.


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## TruthSeeker

Tshering22 said:


> The thing is, IAEA is not going to check Israeli nukes simply because whether they have it or not itself is not out in the open. Call it double standard or whatever, but they are smarter than either us or Pakistan in keeping their programme under wraps and keep the world guessing.


 
The IAEA only has jurisdiction over the nuclear activities of UN member states who sign the UN Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Israel is not a signatory of the NPT so the IAEA has no jurisdiction. It's that simple. Iran is an NPT signatory. North Korea abrogated it's NPT signature, I believe.

Note:

On January 10th 2003 North Korea announced its intent to become the first country ever to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Though North Korean officials argued that its withdrawal was official immediately, according to Article X of the treaty the withdrawal was not official until today, three months after the notification was issued. This unfortunate event highlights the severe implications of the Bush administrations refusal to engage North Korea diplomatically. It also draws attention to concerns about the uncertain future of the NPT regime.

Under the NPT North Korea and other countries not possessing nuclear weapons at the time agreed not to develop or obtain nuclear weapons and the nuclear powers agreed to disarm and not to spread nuclear weapons to other states. Now that North Korea is officially not a party to the NPT, there are few legal obstacles preventing it from developing nuclear weapons and selling such weapons, technology and materials to other countries.

North Korea had announced its intent to withdraw from the NPT regime once before in 1993. At that time the United States engaged in bilateral negotiations leading the DPRK to retract its withdrawal days before it officially went into effect.

When North Korea again announced its withdrawal in January its statement of intent clearly called for further negotiation initiatives with the United States. These requests did not, however, result in the skillful diplomatic maneuvering that was employed during the 1993 crisis. Instead, the Bush administration has refused all requests for bilateral talks, urging a multilateral approach that has, thus far, proved entirely unfruitful.

*North Korea now joins India, Pakistan, Israel, as the only countries not currently within the NPT regime. Few of these countries have faced serious consequences for such remaining outside of the regime. *

North Korea&#8217;s Withdrawal from Nonproliferation Treaty Official, by Devon Chaffee, April 10, 2003


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## nirreich

Tshering22 said:


> Erm.. what do you mean by "we" here? It is not as if having no ties with Bangladesh is actually costing them any serious losses.  Just a question. The thing is, IAEA is not going to check Israeli nukes simply because whether they have it or not itself is not out in the open. Call it double standard or whatever, but they are smarter than either us or Pakistan in keeping their programme under wraps and keep the world guessing. If anyone has any idea about them having the nukes it is because of that Samson Option of theirs.



Israel's nuclear ambiguity policy is indeed aimed to divert any international attention on its strategic capabilities, including by the IAEA. Israel is not part of the NPT, thus is not committed to allow IAEA to have inspections. IAEA is can only access Israel's Sorek nuclear centre which was constructed by the US in 1959 as part of the "Atom for Peace" initiative. Pakistan's KANUPP is operating under a similar framework.

As I mentioned earlier, similar to India, Israel is a responsible country which will avoid any use of its allegedly WMD in order to destabilise its region or the international community. Hence, it should not worry sensible people and countries.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Israel's nuclear ambiguity policy is indeed aimed to divert any international attention on its strategic capabilities, including by the IAEA. Israel is not part of the NPT, thus is not committed to allow IAEA to have inspections. IAEA is can only access Israel's Sorek nuclear centre which was constructed by the US in 1959 as part of the "Atom for Peace" initiative. Pakistan's KANUPP is operating under a similar framework.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, similar to India, Israel is a responsible country which will avoid any use of its allegedly WMD in order to destabilise its region or the international community. Hence, it should not worry sensible people and countries.



*Israel's so-called nuclear ambiguity is a drama to divert attention away from israel's WMDs. So what if israel has not officially declared, everybody knows that israel has WMDs, it is not a question of if, the question is how many. I know shylock, you're going to ask your stupid 'Does the earth revolve around the sun' question.*


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## Soumitra

secularbuster said:


> *Israel's so-called nuclear ambiguity is a drama to divert attention away from israel's WMDs. So what if israel has not officially declared, everybody knows that israel has WMDs, it is not a question of if, the question is how many. I know shylock, you're going to ask your stupid 'Does the earth revolve around the sun' question.*


 
OK lets say for one moment that the allegation that Israel has nuclear weapons is true. why is it a threat to world peace?

Is Israel threatening to nuke Dhaka? 

She will not use nukes against palestinians because that will also affect them.

It does not need to use nukes to attack the Arab states first because it has the backing of the US. 

Arabs wont attack israel because of the second strike capability. In this case I will say that the nukes are actually preventing a war.

So the nukes are for world peace


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## secularbuster

Soumitra said:


> OK lets say for one moment that the allegation that Israel has nuclear weapons is true. why is it a threat to world peace?
> 
> Is Israel threatening to nuke Dhaka?
> 
> She will not use nukes against palestinians because that will also affect them.
> 
> It does not need to use nukes to attack the Arab states first because it has the backing of the US.
> 
> Arabs wont attack israel because of the second strike capability. In this case I will say that the nukes are actually preventing a war.
> 
> So the nukes are for world peace


 
*If that's the case why does israel worry about Iran possessing nukes? Iran knows that if it uses nukes on israel, israel will nuke Iran, you see, the same logic.*


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## nirreich

Soumitra said:


> OK lets say for one moment that the allegation that Israel has nuclear weapons is true. why is it a threat to world peace?
> 
> Is Israel threatening to nuke Dhaka?
> 
> She will not use nukes against palestinians because that will also affect them.
> 
> It does not need to use nukes to attack the Arab states first because it has the backing of the US.
> 
> Arabs wont attack israel because of the second strike capability. In this case I will say that the nukes are actually preventing a war.
> 
> So the nukes are for world peace


 
You presented good arguments, but they are a waste of time. I strongly advise you to ignore the buster(ed) troll, he never answer or explain anything, only persist with his slogans like a scratch record. He does not listen to reason or logic.

do yourself a favour and refrain from replying to his stupidity.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You presented good arguments, but they are a waste of time. I strongly advise you to ignore the buster(ed) troll, he never answer or explain anything, only persist with his slogans like a scratch record. He does not listen to reason or logic.
> 
> do yourself a favour and refrain from replying to his stupidity.


*
Shylock, your evilness is the worst kind of stupidity for it creates wars in the world.*


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> Shylock, your evilness is the worst kind of stupidity for it creates wars in the world.*


 
I do not want to waste any more of my time on your nonsense, go and pick on someone in a forum on cow manure.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I do not want to waste any more of my time on your nonsense, go and pick on someone in a forum on cow manure.


*
I think israel's factory of WMDs truly deserve the world's attention!*


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## T-Rex

secularbuster said:


> *
> I think israel's factory of WMDs truly deserve the world's attention!*


*
Israel having nukes is same as terrorists having nukes!*


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## bularab

Israel nukes are absolutely unneeded, because if they bomb someone, that'll affect them too. There is not even evidence, that they possess nuclear weapons.


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## T-Rex

bularab said:


> Israel nukes are absolutely unneeded, because if they bomb someone, that'll affect them too. There is not even evidence, that they possess nuclear weapons.


*
Your statement is the official US stand which has been proven false by Mordechai Vanunu. This name should ring the bell for those who pretend to be in the dark about the israeli WMDs. Here's the link for you:

Mordechai Vanunu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## Moustafa Kalaf

I have it on good authority that the US has long term military operations placed against both Iran and North Korea.


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## fd24

bularab said:


> Israel nukes are absolutely unneeded, because if they bomb someone, that'll affect them too. There is not even evidence, that they possess nuclear weapons.



What is unjust is the american/zionism stand that its ok and "safe" for Israel to have nukes but not for anyone else. What planet are they from? Why one rule for one and another for the muslims? I think the Israelis have on numerous occasions shown they are liars and cant be trusted. Take the nukes off them (if they have them) just in case they get gun ho. Never trust a nation with such nasty views on race.


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## DADU

bularab said:


> Israel nukes are absolutely unneeded, because if they bomb someone, that'll affect them too. There is not even evidence, that they possess nuclear weapons.



If Israel has nukes then its for a good reason, why do we have nukes? (Exactly)
To ward off power hungry Arabs who want to grab more land and attack them


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## T-Rex

DADU said:


> If Israel has nukes then it&#8217;s for a good reason, why do we have nukes? (Exactly)
> To ward off power hungry Arabs who want to grab more land and attack them


*
I take this as an irony for in reality Arabs are not hungry for land, israelis are. A state which was founded through terrorism, a state that exists through state terrorism, uses its nukes to permanently grab the stolen land.*


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## Aaqib Shah

you are exactly right but you know its our weakness that we are unable to project these issues at required level we Muslims are just worried about ourselves. Israel and America has divided us so much with their conspiracies that we have started thinking America as our friend. You and me and many others like us discuss these issues with solutions but unable to carry them along and implement them or convince someone on these issues.


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## T-Rex

Aaqib Shah said:


> you are exactly right but you know its our weakness that we are unable to project these issues at required level we Muslims are just worried about ourselves. Israel and America has divided us so much with their conspiracies that we have started thinking America as our friend. You and me and many others like us discuss these issues with solutions but unable to carry them along and implement them or convince someone on these issues.



*Our duty is to keep the truth about Palestine and the Muslim World in general afloat. It is not for us to provide solutions or convince anyone, leave that to the future generation. Trust me, those who have honesty and humanity are already convinced and those whose goal is to justify israel's illegal activities are determined that they are not going to listen to the voice of reason or humanity. So, forget about persuading them. Just don't let them fool those who do not know what is going on and that is our mission.*


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## ThunderCat

Typical to see Pakistanis to be worshiping Arabs and Iranians (particularly Shia Pakistanis) and attacking Israel, a country that has kept it's distance from us till we got involved.


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## T-Rex

ThunderCat said:


> Typical to see Pakistanis to be worshiping Arabs and Iranians (particularly Shia Pakistanis) and attacking Israel, a country that has kept it's distance from us till we got involved.


*
Yeah, we can see you worshiping israel. Israel staying away from Pakistan, Hillery was recently caught selling this kind of lies.*


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## nirreich

As long as the Middle Eastern countries will avoid any provocation against Israel they have nothing to worry about any Israeli hostile act against them. Israel aspires to live in peace with all its neighbours and with the Palestinians.

The same is true about Israel's military capabilities: as long the Arabs or other Muslim countries (Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, etc.) avoid any aggression or sponsor terrorism against Israel they have nothing to worry about, guarantee!


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *So, you want this pocket organization of the west to continue. Now, that tells whose agenda it serves. Israel is the perfect example of a rogue state. It 's funny how the zionists play around with lies. *


 
It is not funny how despicable people like yourself are striving for the destruction international stability by arranging the conditions for a nuclear war.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> It is not funny how despicable people like yourself are striving for the destruction international stability by arranging the conditions for a nuclear war.



*You are striving to continue the israeli and american hegemony with lies and bloodshed and then threaten the world with a nuclear war when the world tries to stop it. Nice going, perhaps you should be an instructor of how to play the role of a perfect villain.*


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## MilSpec

T-Rex said:


> *You are striving to continue the israeli and american hegemony with lies and bloodshed and then threaten the world with a nuclear war when the world tries to stop it. Nice going, perhaps you should be an instructor of how to play the role of a perfect villain.*


 
A country which is surrounded by hostile neighbors who vow every other day to finish the existence of israel, has no other options than maintaining nuke strike back options. it is utmost neccesity that that the democratic civilized world supports Israel for its nukes and protection against the arab states.


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You are striving to continue the israeli and american hegemony with lies and bloodshed and then threaten the world with a nuclear war when the world tries to stop it. Nice going, perhaps you should be an instructor of how to play the role of a perfect villain.*


 
As usual, you did not deny your hideous ambitions - a nuclear world war that will bring to power the most reactionary states like Iran and Pakistan with the support of failed states like Bangladesh.

Sorry, but Israel and the free and democratic countries with the leadership of the US are not going to let this happen. You are force to find another way out of the miserable and pathetic existence of your civilisation which got exactly what it deserves for decades of non-constructive and infantile behaviour.

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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> As usual, you did not deny your hideous ambitions - a nuclear world war that will bring to power the most reactionary states like Iran and Pakistan with the support of failed states like Bangladesh./QUOTE]
> 
> *As usual, you did not desist from expressing your nazi rants. You must have learned it from the nazis.*
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but Israel and the free and democratic countries with the leadership of the US are not going to let this happen. You are force to find another way out of the miserable and pathetic existence of your civilisation which got exactly what it deserves for decades of non-constructive and infantile behaviour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You mean a rogue nation under the leadership of a morally and financially bankrupt nation is not going to let the Palestinians have their rights. Keep trying, Shylock but in the end your israel's end will be like the way Shylock ended in Shakespeare's famous play.*
Click to expand...


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, you did not deny your hideous ambitions - a nuclear world war that will bring to power the most reactionary states like Iran and Pakistan with the support of failed states like Bangladesh./QUOTE]
> 
> *As usual, you did not desist from expressing your nazi rants. You must have learned it from the nazis.*
> 
> 
> 
> *You mean a rogue nation under the leadership of a morally and financially bankrupt nation is not going to let the Palestinians have their rights. Keep trying, Shylock but in the end your israel's end will be like the way Shylock ended in Shakespeare's famous play.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally the truth is out: you are the spiritual successor of the most degraded villains that massacred the Jewish people for centuries - from Pharaoh to Hitler. All you want is for Israel to be defenceless, so it can happen again.
> 
> Unfortunately for you Israel is stronger than ever and Anti-Semite like yourself can only continue babble in a forum such as this and with no power to change reality.
> 
> So keep with your hatred and lies as much as you like, Israel will carry on.
Click to expand...

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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally the truth is out: you are the spiritual successor of the most degraded villains that massacred the Jewish people for centuries - from Pharaoh to Hitler. All you want is for Israel to be defenceless, so it can happen again.
> 
> Unfortunately for you Israel is stronger than ever and Anti-Semite like yourself can only continue babble in a forum such as this and with no power to change reality.
> 
> So keep with your hatred and lies as much as you like, Israel will carry on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Singing the same 'you're an anti-semite' song when your nazi attitude is exposed. Jews like you are known for their hatred for those who support the legitimate rights of the Palestinians.*
Click to expand...


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Singing the same 'you're an anti-semite' song when your nazi attitude is exposed. Jews like you are known for their hatred for those who support the legitimate rights of the Palestinians.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a typical Anti-Semite you are hypocrite too: you do not care less for the rights of the Palestinians if they were not in a conflict with Israel. If the Eskimos were in a conflict with Israel, you would support them too. Yours motives are so obvious: to destroy Israel and to hurt the Jewish people, no matter what.
> 
> Hitler would have been proud of an Anti-Semite like yourself.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a typical Anti-Semite you are hypocrite too: you do not care less for the rights of the Palestinians if they were not in a conflict with Israel. If the Eskimos were in a conflict with Israel, you would support them too. Yours motives are so obvious: to destroy Israel and to hurt the Jewish people, no matter what.
> 
> Hitler would have been proud of an Anti-Semite like yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Zionists like you have chosen to apply the techniques of Hitler on the Palestinians, so Hitler would have been proud of nazi zionists like you. Since you are a great liar and hypocrite, Dr. Goebels would have been proud of you too.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Zionists like you have chosen to apply the techniques of Hitler on the Palestinians, so Hitler would have been proud of nazi zionists like you. Since you are a great liar and hypocrite, Dr. Goebels would have been proud of you too.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As ususal for an Anti-Semite, you conviently ignored my argument while not denying it - you could not care less for the Palestinians if they were not in a conflict with Israel. That is your real twisted thinking of a primitive anti-Semite.
Click to expand...


----------



## Interpreter

mark only!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> As ususal for an Anti-Semite, you conviently ignored my argument while not denying it - you could not care less for the Palestinians if they were not in a conflict with Israel. That is your real twisted thinking of a primitive anti-Semite.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> A neo-nazi like you have no argument all you have is lies and deceit.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> A neo-nazi like you have no argument all you have is lies and deceit.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your entire thinking is based on lies. That is why you are anti-Semite and hostile towards Israel, the only democratic country in the Middle East and one of the most developed countries in the international community.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your entire thinking is based on lies. That is why you are anti-Semite and hostile towards Israel, the only democratic country in the Middle East and one of the most developed countries in the international community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel's existence is based on lies and repression, hence, your entire life is based on lies and genocide. You try your best to hide that by pointing fingers at others.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel's existence is based on lies and repression, hence, your entire life is based on lies and genocide. You try your best to hide that by pointing fingers at others.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not pointing at anyone because I do not have anything to hide. You are the one who hides the primitive and barbaric nature of a significant part of his Muslim civilisation by anti-Semitism, spreading hatred and mendacity and blaming Israel for all the troubles of the world.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not pointing at anyone because I do not have anything to hide. You are the one who hides the primitive and barbaric nature of a significant part of his Muslim civilisation by anti-Semitism, spreading hatred and mendacity and blaming Israel for all the troubles of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> We know that to the zionists, Muslims are 'primitive and barbaric' for they speak against the israeli terrorism.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> We know that to the zionists, Muslims are 'primitive and barbaric' for they speak against the israeli terrorism.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We all know that anti-Semites like yourself are barbaric and primitive and advocates terrorism and genocide.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all know that anti-Semites like yourself are barbaric and primitive and advocates terrorism and genocide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *We advocate peace and human rights while you and your likes are the real advocates of terrorism and robbery.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *We advocate peace and human rights while you and your likes are the real advocates of terrorism and robbery.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You advocate butchering Jews, raping women and letting terrorists and murderers to control the world only because they are Muslims. Your smallest concern is human rights and you support barbaric terrorists who destroy peace. But in your world of lies terrorism is peace.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> You advocate butchering Jews, raping women and letting terrorists and murderers to control the world only because they are Muslims. Your smallest concern is human rights and you support barbaric terrorists who destroy peace. But in your world of lies terrorism is peace.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Lies after lies, nothing new from a hatemonger like you!*
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> You advocate butchering Jews, raping women and letting terrorists and murderers to control the world only because they are Muslims. Your smallest concern is human rights and you support barbaric terrorists who destroy peace. But in your world of lies terrorism is peace.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Lies after lies, nothing new from a hatemonger like you!
> *
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Lies after lies, nothing new from a hatemonger like you!
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crawl back to the cave you came from and remain in your hatred and Anti-Semitism. Leave the important issues to people who has not ignorant about them like yourself. If someone wants to dig a cave or to light fire he will know where to reach a Neanderthal like you.
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crawl back to the cave you came from and remain in your hatred and Anti-Semitism. Leave the important issues to people who has not ignorant about them like yourself. If someone wants to dig a cave or to light fire he will know where to reach a Neanderthal like you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm living in my own homeland, why should I crawl back? The 21st century robbers in occupied Palestine should crawl back to Europe or wherever they came from.*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm living in my own homeland, why should I crawl back? The 21st century robbers in occupied Palestine should crawl back to Europe or wherever they came from.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are living in one of the most under-developed countries in the world while Israel gives better life conditions to the Palestinians than the life conditions in Bangladesh. Instead of spreading hatred and anti-Semitism and screaming against the return of the people of Israel to their historic land you should concentrate on improving your impoverished homeland that no one would touch even with a stick.
Click to expand...


----------



## ayibarishi

der t-rex;

if you have a raised with hate, you can talk exactlly like this israelian friend. they government especially do that. they inoculate hate their own clidren in early ages. school trips for annihilations camps, hate oriented curriculum, supporting hate with faith (specially selected verse of tavrat, zabur and enemy holy book quran) they can't see the whole picture in this life. they can see only specially selected (for raising hate, anger, unlogical and speculative superiority of israelian race) silice of life and faith. 

naturally they can not understand violence birth violence. anger birth anger. blood birth bood. of course many innocent jewish people killed by philistinian hands. but they can not see much much more innocent philistinian people killed by israelian dirty hands. because they wear horse eyeglasses. (this term means: they can see only a little angle of world, they can see only the one presented road for themself)

caesars right must belonging to caesar. all jewish people have a right to live in your country. with safeand secure, with peace and prosperity. they deserve that. this is their natural rights. "LIKE PH&#304;L&#304;ST&#304;N&#304;ANS AND OTHER MUSL&#304;M PEOPLE"


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are living in one of the most under-developed countries in the world while Israel gives better life conditions to the Palestinians than the life conditions in Bangladesh. Instead of spreading hatred and anti-Semitism and screaming against the return of the people of Israel to their historic land you should concentrate on improving your impoverished homeland that no one would touch even with a stick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *developed or under-developed, it's my own while you live in a highly developed stolen piece of land! Now, in the eyes of a zionist like you that is an achievement!*
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *developed or under-developed, it's my own while you live in a highly developed stolen piece of land! Now, in the eyes of a zionist like you that is an achievement!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews were living in their historic homeland when your country was still a swamp. While Israel today is a success story and an advanced country your country remained a swamp. So, you should dedicate your energy to build your swamp instead of anti-Semitism.
Click to expand...


----------



## KHIte

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *developed or under-developed, it's my own while you live in a highly developed stolen piece of land! Now, in the eyes of a zionist like you that is an achievement!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well said, you could have also said, israel is the 51 state of US, so thats why its developed, otherwise they would be living in gas chambers in germany
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *developed or under-developed, it's my own while you live in a highly developed stolen piece of land! Now, in the eyes of a zionist like you that is an achievement!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well said, you could have also said, israel is the 51 state of US, so thats why its developed, otherwise they would be living in gas chambers of germany
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

ayibarishi said:


> der t-rex;
> 
> if you have a raised with hate, you can talk exactlly like this israelian friend. they government especially do that. they inoculate hate their own clidren in early ages. school trips for annihilations camps, hate oriented curriculum, supporting hate with faith (specially selected verse of tavrat, zabur and enemy holy book quran) they can't see the whole picture in this life. they can see only specially selected (for raising hate, anger, unlogical and speculative superiority of israelian race) silice of life and faith.
> 
> naturally they can not understand violence birth violence. anger birth anger. blood birth bood. of course many innocent jewish people killed by philistinian hands. but they can not see much much more innocent philistinian people killed by israelian dirty hands. because they wear horse eyeglasses. (this term means: they can see only a little angle of world, they can see only the one presented road for themself)
> 
> caesars right must belonging to caesar. all jewish people have a right to live in your country. with safeand secure, with peace and prosperity. they deserve that. this is their natural rights. "LIKE PH&#304;L&#304;ST&#304;N&#304;ANS AND OTHER MUSL&#304;M PEOPLE"



Like your Niandartal friend it seems that you too do not understand anything about Israel, although I agree with the position in your last paragraph: both Israel and Palestinians have the right to live in their own country.


----------



## nirreich

KHIte said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> well said, you could have also said, israel is the 51 state of US, so thats why its developed, otherwise they would be living in gas chambers in germany
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> well said, you could have also said, israel is the 51 state of US, so thats why its developed, otherwise they would be living in gas chambers of germany
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are another one of the worst kind of anti-Semite that comes from a failed state which terrorise its people but find the nerve to lecture others on moral issues
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## ayibarishi

of course nirreich. i think we must think about that: "how can we do that? how can we draw some middle line? what is wrong our altitudes and behaviors and haw can we fix that?.."


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> KHIte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> well said, you could have also said, israel is the 51 state of US, so thats why its developed, otherwise they would be living in gas chambers in germany
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You are another one of the worst kind of anti-Semite that comes from a failed state which terrorise its people but find the nerve to lecture others on moral issues
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I apologise for forgetting that the israeli robbers have monopoly over moral issues as well!*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has more morality than an anti-Semite like yourself who is by definition a degenerate and a degraded scum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Israel has more morality" says Mr. Shylock!*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"Israel has more morality" says Mr. Shylock!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And who usually has nothing to say: the degenerate anti-Semite!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> And who usually has nothing to say: the degenerate anti-Semite!
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Shylock, you've lost it, see a shrink, will you?*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## GORKHALI

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"Israel has more morality" says Mr. Shylock!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1st of all in any forum or even email writing ,bold letters represents Inferiorty complex ,though am not surprised.
> 2nd point is who are you to ask Israelis about their Nukes ?? ask this question to India and i swear to god ,you gonna get from right ,left and centre .
> 
> 3rd Point as you called yourself as thekedaar of muslim world (am not scolding you personaly ),Why you think Israelis are terrorist because the got dispute with Palestine land and its people ,but who are you ?are you of 1 of its citizen ?
> 1st make a reactor and then talk to big boys holding nukes...
> Learn from our western neighbour because of their thekedaari where these guys stand ?Not a single arab world today supporting,china is relucting ..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

PANDORA said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1st of all in any forum or even email writing ,bold letters represents Inferiorty complex ,though am not surprised.
> 2nd point is who are you to ask Israelis about their Nukes ?? ask this question to India and i swear to god ,you gonna get from right ,left and centre .
> 
> 3rd Point as you called yourself as thekedaar of muslim world (am not scolding you personaly ),Why you think Israelis are terrorist because the got dispute with Palestine land and its people ,but who are you ?are you of 1 of its citizen ?
> 1st make a reactor and then talk to big boys holding nukes...
> Learn from our western neighbour because of their thekedaari where these guys stand ?Not a single arab world today supporting,china is relucting ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Bold letters represent inferiority complex" now, which psychiatrist has uttered this theory? Does an indian 'goru' qualify as a psychiatrist? *
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Anokha

*As Salam-o-Alaikum..
Israel will soon be judged. Ghazwa-e-Hind is about to begin.*


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Anokha said:


> *As Salam-o-Alaikum..
> Israel will soon be judged. Ghazwa-e-Hind is about to begin.*


 
 hello "sir" zaid hamid...


----------



## T-Rex

*As I said the israeli nukes are nothing but terror weapons to terrorise israel's neighbours and therefore, before everything else this threat must be addressed by those who scream about the proliferation of the WMDs day and night.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *As I said the israeli nukes are nothing but terror weapons to terrorise israel's neighbours and therefore, before everything else this threat must be addressed by those who scream about the proliferation of the WMDs day and night.*



There is not even one word of truth in what you wrote:

As a degenerate Anti-Semite You constantly ignoring reality: Israel never used or threatened to use WMD against any of its neighbours, in spite they tried to destroy it in several armed conflicts some of them are still committed to this goal until today.

As was proven in Wikileaks cables, most of the Arab countries have more concern about Iran's nuclear programme than about Israel's. If you are so attentive to the security of the Arabs, press for Iran's nuclear disarmament. Israel has no aspirations to control the ME like Iran which actively meddle with the internal affairs of countries in this region (Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.).


----------



## PacificBeach

nirreich said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has more morality than an anti-Semite like yourself who is by definition a degenerate and a degraded scum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calling someone whose views you don't like an Anti-Semite is an easy way out.
> 
> Jew has actually proved in every society they live they manage to become the most disliked people of all, using your terminology the scumbags.
> 
> Remember Bernie Maddoff who committed the biggest fraud ever to steal $50+ billion from many many people?
> 
> Recently a congressman from New York was involved in a big scandal, sending lewd photos to a college student over internet. After being caught, he denied vehemently for a while, claiming that hackers hacked his twitter account and he is innocent! Later he had to confess what he has done. It was found out that he was online-messaging with a 17 year old (meanwhile his less than a year old wife was pregnant by the way). It turns out that he had similarly interacted with many females. Among those a former **** actress said in a press conference _&#8220;When the scandal broke and people started emailing me, I did not know what to do. So I emailed Anthony Weiner. He asked me to lie about our communication."_. He not only lied many times over national TV, but also urged others to lie for him too. Finally succumbing to pressure, he resigned from his post. Lies, dishonesty, deceit, immorality, lack of remorse, whatever you can think of....
> 
> These are who a real "fully-Semite" is  And there are so many of them.... In your nomenclature a fully degenerate, degraded scum, immoral in every sense ....
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Kompromat

Enough with *Anti Semite* BS ! - this thread ain't about jews and their fairy tales but about Israeli nuclear program.


----------



## rohailmalhi

nirreich said:


> There is not even one word of truth in what you wrote:
> 
> As a degenerate Anti-Semite You constantly ignoring reality: Israel never used or threatened to use WMD against any of its neighbours, in spite they tried to destroy it in several armed conflicts some of them are still committed to this goal until today.
> 
> As was proven in Wikileaks cables, most of the Arab countries have more concern about Iran's nuclear programme than about Israel's. If you are so attentive to the security of the Arabs, press for Iran's nuclear disarmament. Israel has no aspirations to control the ME like Iran which actively meddle with the internal affairs of countries in this region (Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.).



I fail to understand one thing in these cables there was nothing at all about the pure , peace loving and wonderful Israel.
Do i take it as propoganda or sumthing else.

What is this wikicable stuff ..... do they even have proof.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> There is not even one word of truth in what you wrote:
> 
> As a degenerate Anti-Semite You constantly ignoring reality: Israel never used or threatened to use WMD against any of its neighbours, in spite they tried to destroy it in several armed conflicts some of them are still committed to this goal until today.
> 
> As was proven in Wikileaks cables, most of the Arab countries have more concern about Iran's nuclear programme than about Israel's. If you are so attentive to the security of the Arabs, press for Iran's nuclear disarmament. Israel has no aspirations to control the ME like Iran which actively meddle with the internal affairs of countries in this region (Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.).


*
Israelis can't lie their way out of this. That isreali nukes are not terror weapons is the greatest lie of all. Israel is a terror entity and its nukes are nothing but terror weapons!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Israelis can't lie their way out of this. That isreali nukes are not terror weapons is the greatest lie of all. Israel is a terror entity and its nukes are nothing but terror weapons!*



As usual for an anti-Semite: all you can do is scream but never ever prove your lies. In this thread I have already gave sufficient evidence that you lie without even blink and all your above arguments are absolutely false. Repeating them again and again will not make them something else.


----------



## lem34

we have to wait until america goes bust. When america goes bust and its on its way Israel will be finished cos they rely on american charity


----------



## nirreich

Aeronaut said:


> Enough with *Anti Semite* BS ! - this thread ain't about jews and their fairy tales but about Israeli nuclear program.


 
Look back in this thread and you will find out that the outcome of this discussion was that there the answer is negative - IAEA and the international community should deal with much more urgent nuclear problems: Iran, Pakistan, North Korea.

After the end of the discussion, I asked the administrator to close this thread for moderation, and he chose not to do it. So, now we are just enjoying wasting our time and I am enjoying thrashing a specific anti-Semite troll in this thread who is clot like a clotted cream.

But thank you for your interest and for opening this amusing thread. Unless you have something new to contribute to this thread, it can be closed for moderation.


----------



## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> we have to wait until america goes bust. When america goes bust and its on its way Israel will be finished cos they rely on american charity



Good luck with the waiting business, the Muslims are very good with waiting, that is one of the main reasons for the greatness of Muslim countries in the international community.

In the meantime, Israel will continue to flourish and advance to the first row of world countries.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> There's nothing more urgent than the threat emanating from the israeli nukes.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing more urgent than the threat emanating from the israeli nukes.



Oh, yes there is: Iran followed by North Korea and Pakistan. Apparently, as was exposed in Wikileaks, even the Arab's countries think that Iran is a the biggest threat to the stability of the ME.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Oh, yes there is: Iran followed by North Korea and Pakistan. Apparently, as was exposed in Wikileaks, even the Arab's countries think that Iran is a the biggest threat to the stability of the ME.



*No, there isn't a greater threat than the israeli nukes and I represent the view of at least 175 countries while you represent the view of barely 15 countries in total. One of your friends tell me to use bold letters for you, you don't mind, do you?*


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It is not a question of majority and minority,.



*Of course not or else how would you sell your indo-american-israeli 'logic'.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Of course not or else how would you sell your indo-american-israeli 'logic'.*



Bravo, you excel yourself with unintelligent replies which has no contribution to the discussion, which only emphasise my point that this thread should be closed for moderation.


----------



## 500

secularbuster said:


> *No, there isn't a greater threat than the israeli nukes*


Ask doctor for pills against your fear, because our nukes are not going anywhere.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Bravo, you excel yourself with unintelligent replies which has no contribution to the discussion, which only emphasise my point that this thread should be closed for moderation.



*Your so-called contribution to this forum is limited to the denial of facts and trying to sell your lies.*


----------



## Khan_patriot

Aeronaut said:


> Hi all.
> 
> What do you guys suggest ?



NUKES UP THEIR A$S


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Your so-called contribution to this forum is limited to the denial of facts and trying to sell your lies.*



My contribution is in refuting the ridiculous and infantile arguments of trolls like yourself who can only behave as trolls because they are too afraid to face reality. For you trolls there are other threads you can destroy, so this one can be closed.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------




secularbuster said:


> *Your so-called contribution to this forum is limited to the denial of facts and trying to sell your lies.*



My contribution is in refuting the ridiculous and infantile arguments of trolls like yourself who can only behave as trolls because they are too afraid to face reality. For you trolls there are other threads you can destroy, so this one can be closed.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tshering22

nirreich said:


> My contribution is in refuting the ridiculous and infantile arguments of trolls like yourself who can only behave as trolls because they are too afraid to face reality. For you trolls there are other threads you can destroy, so this one can be closed.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> My contribution is in refuting the ridiculous and infantile arguments of trolls like yourself who can only behave as trolls because they are too afraid to face reality. For you trolls there are other threads you can destroy, so this one can be closed.



Some people love to live in denial. Don't bother explaining them. Despite the fact that this denial is destroying them daily, they will cling to it until nothing remains.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## secularbuster

Tshering22 said:


> Some people love to live in denial. Don't bother explaining them. Despite the fact that this denial is destroying them daily, they will cling to it until nothing remains.



Let the Wall Street protests spread across the globe and soon people like you will see who's living in the fantasy world! Capitalism led by the Jewish businesses, their hegemony and nuclear blackmail will all come to an abrupt and bloody end like it happened to the Tsars of Russia. Just wait a few more years, it has already started.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/16/occupy-protests-europe-london-assange


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Let the Wall Street protests spread across the globe and soon people like you will see who's living in the fantasy world! Capitalism led by the Jewish businesses, their hegemony and nuclear blackmail will all come to an abrupt and bloody end like it happened to the Tsars of Russia. Just wait a few more years, it has already started.
> 
> Occupy protests against capitalism spread around world | World news | The Observer



My dear fellow,

You and your kind are living in a mud hole and you only have you to blame for it. If you and your kind devoted just half of your energy for improving constructively your miserable situation instead of spreading hatred and Anti-Semitism, your failed state, like other third world countries, would be in a far better place.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> My dear fellow,
> 
> You and your kind are living in a mud hole and you only have you to blame for it. If you and your kind devoted just half of your energy for improving constructively your miserable situation instead of spreading hatred and Anti-Semitism, your failed state, like other third world countries, would be in a far better place.



We live in simple mud hole while you live in palaces stained with the blood of those who are the real owners of those palaces. Whenever this fact is uttered scums don't waste time in playing the 'you're an anti-semite' song to divert attention from the real tragedy.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> We live in simple mud hole while you live in palaces stained with the blood of those who are the real owners of those palaces. Whenever this fact is uttered scums don't waste time in playing the 'you're an anti-semite' song to divert attention from the real tragedy.



The real tragedy is your degraded situation: you are blaming everyone for your pathetic situation except yourself. This is a typical pathology behaviour of a member in one of the numerous failed countries in our world. I am calling you an anti-Semite because this is what you are: you are convinced that the Jews control the world and are responsible for your troubles. This is exactly what all the anti-Semites thought though history - from Pharaoh to Hitler and Ahmedinajad. 

You cannot see beyond your hatred that the situation of your failed state is entirely your people responsibility and not anyone else - not the West, not the US and less of all the Jewish people. Until you will join the modern world and the 21 century most of your Muslim civilisation will continue to stay far behind the majority of world nations.

I need to thank you for clearing the point that the real issue is not Israel's allegedly nuclear weapons, this is only a pretext for a much more bigger problem - the pure hatred and anti-Semitism of people like you which refuse to help themselves while trying constantly to ruin decades and of hard work which eventually paid off for the one who are successful - advanced countries, like Israel.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> The real tragedy is your degraded situation: you are blaming everyone for your pathetic situation except yourself. This is a typical pathology behaviour of a member in one of the numerous failed countries in our world. I am calling you an anti-Semite because this is what you are: you are convinced that the Jews control the world and are responsible for your troubles. This is exactly what all the anti-Semites thought though history - from Pharaoh to Hitler and Ahmedinajad.
> 
> You cannot see beyond your hatred that the situation of your failed state is entirely your people responsibility and not anyone else - not the West, not the US and less of all the Jewish people. Until you will join the modern world and the 21 century most of your Muslim civilisation will continue to stay far behind the majority of world nations.
> 
> I need to thank you for clearing the point that the real issue is not Israel's allegedly nuclear weapons, this is only a pretext for a much more bigger problem - the pure hatred and anti-Semitism of people like you which refuse to help themselves while trying constantly to ruin decades and of hard work which eventually paid off for the one who are successful - advanced countries, like Israel.



The real tragedy is that the robbers(israel) have robbed the dignity of the Palestinians and now they are planning to blackmail the entire region with their nukes.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> The real tragedy is that the robbers(israel) have robbed the dignity of the Palestinians and now they are planning to blackmail the entire region with their nukes.



You do not understand anything about the ME or Israel or current international affairs and you are talking from the top of your head. To say that Israel blackmailing the entire region is like saying that Bangladesh is a regional power of Asia - science fiction.

You would not care less for the Palestinians (who are having better life conditions than the people of Bangladesh) if they were not in a conflict with Israel. You anti-Semitism derive you to support any other anti-Semite entity in our world which is obsessed with Israel and the Jewish people. 

Concentrate on improving the situation of the people of Bangladesh istead of spreading racism and bigotry. If you do that maybe in a three or four decades you will be able to enjoy the improved life conditions of the Palestinians in the PA and after a century the life quality of Palestinians who are Israeli citizens.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You do not understand anything about the ME or Israel or current international affairs and you are talking from the top of your head. To say that Israel blackmailing the entire region is like saying that Bangladesh is a regional power of Asia - science fiction.
> 
> You would not care less for the Palestinians (who are having better life conditions than the people of Bangladesh) if they were not in a conflict with Israel. You anti-Semitism derive you to support any other anti-Semite entity in our world which is obsessed with Israel and the Jewish people.
> 
> Concentrate on improving the situation of the people of Bangladesh istead of spreading racism and bigotry. If you do that maybe in a three or four decades you will be able to enjoy the improved life conditions of the Palestinians in the PA and after a century the life quality of Palestinians who are Israeli citizens.



Do you really believe you can turn the attention away from the threat emanating from the israeli nukes with your zionist crap? Keep trying, but let me assure you it's not going to work anymore.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Do you really believe you can turn the attention away from the threat emanating from the israeli nukes with your zionist crap? Keep trying, but let me assure you it's not going to work anymore.



Do you honestly believe that by constantly lying and flagging your anti-Semitism you are making a case? Chimpanzees can present better arguments and conduct a dialogue better than you. No one who is even half drunk will be ready to be persuaded by your pathetic trolling.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Do you honestly believe that by constantly lying and flagging your anti-Semitism you are making a case? Chimpanzees can present better arguments and conduct a dialogue better than you. No one who is even half drunk will be ready to be persuaded by your pathetic trolling.



As I said it's not going to work, your attempt to hide the threat from the israeli nukes is futile.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> As I said it's not going to work, your attempt to hide the threat from the israeli nukes is futile.



How can I hide a figure of your imagination?


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> How can I hide a figure of your imagination?



It's a reality, that's why you don't mind wasting your time to hide it. Your time will be better utilised if you convince your fellow israelis to give up the nukes and adopt a reasonable defence policy.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> It's a reality, that's why you don't mind wasting your time to hide it. Your time will be better utilised if you convince your fellow israelis to give up the nukes and adopt a reasonable defence policy.



It is only a reality in your little world up there in the maze you can choose to call it your mind. In the real world it is only hallucinations that should be exposed for the sake of ordinary members of PDF who might mistakenly believe your lies.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It is only a reality in your little world up there in the maze you can choose to call it your mind. In the real world it is only hallucinations that should be exposed for the sake of ordinary members of PDF who might mistakenly believe your lies.



Thinking that somehow israel's WMDs are acceptable in ME is what we call the ultimate hallucination, you're definitely high on dope.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Thinking that somehow israel's WMDs are acceptable in ME is what we call the ultimate hallucination, you're definitely high on dope.



Your statement is a new record of stupidity, even by your standards. There is no connection between regional acceptance and developing WMD. In reality, not in your fantasy world, countries do not ask permission from their adversaries to develop WMD. If you fail to understand this simple logic, you are not on dope, you should by in the asylum.

Does Pakistan WMD are acceptable on India and Afghanistan? Does North Korea WMD are acceptable on South Korea, Japan and China? Does China WMD are acceptable on India, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan? Does Iran WMD are acceptable on KSA, UAE, Russia, Iraq, Azarbijan?


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Your statement is a new record of stupidity, even by your standards. There is no connection between regional acceptance and developing WMD. In reality, not in your fantasy world, countries do not ask permission from their adversaries to develop WMD. If you fail to understand this simple logic, you are not on dope, you should by in the asylum.
> 
> Does Pakistan WMD are acceptable on India and Afghanistan? Does North Korea WMD are acceptable on South Korea, Japan and China? Does China WMD are acceptable on India, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan? Does Iran WMD are acceptable on KSA, UAE, Russia, Iraq, Azarbijan?



Your statement is nothing but a symbol of devilish intention. That's how israel has become the symbol of a perfect villain.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Your statement is nothing but a symbol of devilish intention. That's how israel has become the symbol of a perfect villain.



Yes you are right, that is why we all have horns and a tail.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Yes you are right, that is why we all have horns and a tail.



Shylock didn't have horns, you're distorting the picture.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Shylock didn't have horns, you're distorting the picture.



I am glad to hear that this is the only detail that interrupt you in your picture which is painted with anti-Semitism, racism and bigotry. And I can see that you run out of lies, eventually, about the topic. From knowing you, you will soon find new lies to scream.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> I am glad to hear that this is the only detail that interrupt you in your picture which is painted with anti-Semitism, racism and bigotry. And I can see that you run out of lies, eventually, about the topic. From knowing you, you will soon find new lies to scream.



Look it's not good to advertise that you're about to be destroyed by your neighbours and then point nukes at them. Give back what you have stolen and give up your WMDs. This is the only way to have peace with your neighbours, that is, if you want peace to begin with.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Look it's not good to advertise that you're about to be destroyed by your neighbours and then point nukes at them. Give back what you have stolen and give up your WMDs. This is the only way to have peace with your neighbours, that is, if you want peace to begin with.



Again, I was right - you continue to lie senselessly.

When you say "peace" you mean the destruction of Israel after it will surrender to the mercy of barbaric anti-Semites like yourself. This is the same "peace" Hitler offered Czechoslovakia in the Munich Agreement of 1938.

We are not too happy to give away all what we worked and fight for to a bunch of people who reject modernity, praise terrorism, and are in the bottom of human development (according to their own admission).

In spite your limited intellectual capacity even you could understand why Israel might be slightly reluctant to agree to this kind of "peace".


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Again, I was right - you continue to lie senselessly.
> 
> When you say "peace" you mean the destruction of Israel after it will surrender to the mercy of barbaric anti-Semites like yourself. This is the same "peace" Hitler offered Czechoslovakia in the Munich Agreement of 1938.
> 
> We are not too happy to give away all what we worked and fight for to a bunch of people who reject modernity, praise terrorism, and are in the bottom of human development (according to their own admission).
> 
> In spite your limited intellectual capacity even you could understand why Israel might be slightly reluctant to agree to this kind of "peace".



You're despised across the globe yet and we can see that you won't give up your wicked ways. In that case blame others when they decide to chastise you for your wickedness. It happened to you many times in the past but history could not teach you anything.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> You're despised across the globe yet and we can see that you won't give up your wicked ways. In that case blame others when they decide to chastise you for your wickedness. It happened to you many times in the past but history could not teach you anything.



History taught us never to succumb to malicious and vile anti-Semites like yourself who are obsessively plotting how to destroy Israel and have the nerve to offer us to commit suicide while they call it "peace".

And we are wicked for not accepting your "generous" offer to destroy ourselves. The day all the Muslim people are ready to accept your offer and give up their lands and return to Sub-Sahara Africa, then we might be willing to consider it too.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> History taught us never to succumb to malicious and vile anti-Semites like yourself who are obsessively plotting how to destroy Israel and have the nerve to offer us to commit suicide while they call it "peace".
> 
> And we are wicked for not accepting your "generous" offer to destroy ourselves. The day all the Muslim people are ready to accept your offer and give up their lands and return to Sub-Sahara Africa, then we might be willing to consider it too.



How could giving up WMDs and returning the stolen land be considered as destroying israel?


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> How could giving up WMDs and returning the stolen land be considered as destroying israel?



It is obvious than in your eyes any territory in the heartland of the Muslim civilisation (e.g. the ME) which has a Jewish state on it is "stolen" and any mean Israel has to defend itself from its hostile surrounding is "WMD".


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It is obvious than in your eyes any territory in the heartland of the Muslim civilisation (e.g. the ME) which has a Jewish state on it is "stolen" and any mean Israel has to defend itself from its hostile surrounding is "WMD".



Nope, israel doesn't need WMDs to defend itself against countries which don't have nukes. It's a false logic.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Nope, israel doesn't need WMDs to defend itself against countries which don't have nukes. It's a false logic.



Israel needs whatever mean necessary against the ocean of Muslim hostility it surrounded with which includes hundreds of millions of Muslims. 

Israel is like a villa in the jungle in a very unstable region that have included dictatorial barbaric regimes which has no hesitations or moral dilemmas regarding the means of terror they should use against Israel. Israel is the only country in the world that its existence is challenged every day by significant part of the world, and which is constantly threatened to be destroyed by Iran.

If WMD is what needed to deter all this sea of hatred, so be it. But Israel as a stable and liberal democracy pose no threat to world stability nor to its neighbours, so it should definitely not be the focus of world attention while rogue states like Iran, North Korea and Pakistan develop WMD. Israel allegedly WMD is not a bigger threat than UK WMD


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Israel needs whatever mean necessary against the ocean of Muslim hostility it surrounded with which includes hundreds of millions of Muslims.
> 
> Israel is like a villa in the jungle in a very unstable region that have included dictatorial barbaric regimes which has no hesitations or moral dilemmas regarding the means of terror they should use against Israel. Israel is the only country in the world that its existence is challenged every day by significant part of the world, and which is constantly threatened to be destroyed by Iran.
> 
> If WMD is what needed to deter all this sea of hatred, so be it. But Israel as a stable and liberal democracy pose no threat to world stability nor to its neighbours, so it should definitely not be the focus of world attention while rogue states like Iran, North Korea and Pakistan develop WMD. Israel allegedly WMD is not a bigger threat than UK WMD



The blind US military and economic support and israel's superiority in conventional weapons are all for what? Your hypocrisy is astounding!


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Israel's superiority in the conventional weapons is for what? Your hypocrisy is astounding!



Your limited intellectual capacity is astounding.

There is no contradiction: Israel needs to maintain its superiority in all military areas in order to deter any barbaric aggressor from even play with the idea that he has any chance to defeat Israel and destroy it. Conventional superiority is hardly enough to deter hundreds of millions of barbaric people that their hatred towards Israel is pathological.

Israel is a democratic responsible state who will not use WMD without any strong justification (like a real external threat to its existence), so the international community and even an anti-Semite like yourself should focus on other countries which have rogue regimes with WMD.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Your limited intellectual capacity is astounding.
> 
> There is no contradiction: Israel needs to maintain its superiority in all military areas in order to deter any barbaric aggressor from even play with the idea that he has any chance to defeat Israel and destroy it. Conventional superiority is hardly enough to deter hundreds of millions of barbaric people that their hatred towards Israel is pathological.
> 
> Israel is a democratic responsible state who will not use WMD without any strong justification (like a real external threat to its existence), so the international community and even an anti-Semite like yourself should focus on other countries which have rogue regimes with WMD.



My intellectual capacity is okay, you severely lack honesty and humanity. BTW israel is the ideal example of a rogue state.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> My intellectual capacity is okay, you severely lack honesty and humanity.[/QUOTE
> 
> You do not like to hear the truth, so you run away to trolling.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> secularbuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> My intellectual capacity is okay, you severely lack honesty and humanity.[/QUOTE
> 
> You do not like to hear the truth, so you run away to trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating your lies won't serve you a bit, it will only strengthen the belief that you're indeed a shylock the villain.
> 
> *Turkish PM: Israel a nuclear threat*
> 
> Relations between Jerusalem, Ankara slip further as Turkish PM warns Israel's nuclear capabilities pose regional threat
> 
> Associated Press
> Published: 10.05.11, 14:42 / Israel News
> 
> 
> Turkey's prime minister says Israel is a threat to the region for having a nuclear weapon. Recep Tayyip Erdogan spoke Wednesday during a trip to South Africa. His comments were carried by Turkey's Anatolia news agency.
Click to expand...


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating your lies won't serve you a bit, it will only strengthen the belief that you're indeed a shylock the villain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do not have anything to say regarding my points so you continue to evade the truth in the most degraded way: dirty tricks and personal insults.
> 
> This is your only tactics in this thread, but unfortunately to an anti-Smite like yourself - the truth is out, nothing you can do about it
Click to expand...


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> secularbuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do not have anything to say regarding my points so you continue to evade the truth in the most degraded way: dirty tricks and personal insults.
> 
> This is your only tactics in this thread, but unfortunately to an anti-Smite like yourself - the truth is out, nothing you can do about it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're evading what most of the world is saying, israel's nukes are a threat to peace.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeJ7uIPEbE
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're evading what most of the world is saying, israel's nukes are a threat to peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I refuted your nonsense again and again, you are evading the stupidity of your argument by degrading yourself to trolling.
> 
> Again it is not a question of majority and minority: for example in your flag country overwhelming majority of the people prefer to live in a failed state which is performing like a swamp, so are they on the right side?
> 
> The truth is out, nothing you can do about it.
Click to expand...


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> secularbuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I refuted your nonsense again and again, you are evading the stupidity of your argument by degrading yourself to trolling.
> 
> The truth is out, nothing you can do about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the truth is indeed out; israel's nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace and stability.
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the truth is indeed out; israel's nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace and stability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, trolling, nothing more.
Click to expand...


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> secularbuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, trolling, nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The israeli WMDs are against humanity, against peace.
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> The israeli WMDs are against humanity, against peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are still trolling.
Click to expand...


----------



## 500

secularbuster said:


> Let the Wall Street protests spread across the globe and soon people like you will see who's living in the fantasy world! Capitalism led by the Jewish businesses, their hegemony and nuclear blackmail will all come to an abrupt and bloody end like it happened to the Tsars of Russia. Just wait a few more years, it has already started.
> 
> Occupy protests against capitalism spread around world | World news | The Observer


But Communism is also a Jewish invention. You are busted my friend. 

P.S. Did you build a shelter against Israeli nukes already? Here a useful link for u:

How to Build a Fallout Shelter - wikiHow 

I suggest you to enter it, lock and then throw keys away.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> secularbuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are still trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just telling the hard truth.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 500 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But Communism is also a Jewish invention. You are busted my friend.
> 
> P.S. Did you build a shelter against Israeli nukes already? Here a useful link for u:
> 
> How to Build a Fallout Shelter - wikiHow
> 
> I suggest you to enter it, lock and then throw keys away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Trying to intimidate us with your nukes, now, that's nuclear terrorism.
Click to expand...


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## agentny17

Why does Israel need Nukes ? Iran should not have nukes, and same goes for Israel, and every country on the Planet especially in the Middle East.... I think because Israel has Nukes, it pushes other countries to get their own.. Lets say Iran gets Nukes, do you think countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, And Egypt will accept the fact that their lovely neighbours Iran, and Israel can attack them and destroy everything on their land and they can't answer back ? As an Egyptian, i can not accept the fact that one or two countries next to me have Nukes. They either get rid of it, or i will get my own, its only fair, don't you think ? Especially, when i have a bad history with those countries.


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## secularbuster

agentny17 said:


> Why does Israel need Nukes ? Iran should not have nukes, and same goes for Israel, and every country on the Planet especially in the Middle East.... I think because Israel has Nukes, it pushes other countries to get their own.. Lets say Iran gets Nukes, do you think countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, And Egypt will accept the fact that their lovely neighbours Iran, and Israel can attack them and destroy everything on their land and they can't answer back ? As an Egyptian, i can not accept the fact that one or two countries next to me have Nukes. They either get rid of it, or i will get my own, its only fair, don't you think ? Especially, when i have a bad history with those countries.



Very logical stand but some people like nireich find double standard adopted by israel as logical.


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## bularab

Israel will never drop nuclear bomb, since this will kill their own people.


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## 500

secularbuster said:


> Trying to intimidate us with your nukes, now, that's nuclear terrorism.


On contrary, I worry for your health. I can see how you shake out of fear and trying to help u.



agentny17 said:


> Why does Israel need Nukes ?


Your country, Egypt used chemical weapons against Yemeni peasants. Iraq shelled with chemical weapons Iranians and even own citizens. So with such neighbors better be protected. 



> Iran should not have nukes, and same goes for Israel, and every country on the Planet especially in the Middle East.... I


As they wish.



> think because Israel has Nukes, it pushes other countries to get their own.. Lets say Iran gets Nukes


What Iran has to do with Israel? Iran is two countries away from Israel, we dont have any territorial disputes. Iran is a problem of Gulf states.


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## Peaceful Civilian

What Iran has to do with Israel? Iran is two countries away from Israel, we dont have any territorial disputes. Iran is a problem of Gulf states. Let assume it OK,
but why Israel need nukes if they have strong defense system??. Looks like you have some Long term agenda, There is no reason you need those nukes, neither of your neighbor is stronger than you. First you abandon your nukes program, then Iran will... Or you should have strong reason for increasing nukes i.e Pakistan did it for survival, because it was first india who did it.


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## agentny17

500 said:


> Your country, Egypt used chemical weapons against Yemeni peasants. Iraq shelled with chemical weapons Iranians and even own citizens. So with such neighbors better be protected.


We should worry because you guys attacked us more than once, what if you guys go crazy again and attack us with Nukes this time ? We don't really trust you guys, and you having Nukes is not helping at all..... I don't feel safe knowing that you guys could attack us with Nukes, and knowing we don't have the ability to respond to such an aggression. Also, i don't feel safe knowing that a Nuclear war might take place in the Middle East, so why not make sure that all of us don't have such weapons ?


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## nirreich

agentny17 said:


> We should worry because you guys attacked us more than once, what if you guys go crazy again and attack us with Nukes this time ? We don't really trust you guys, and you having Nukes is not helping at all..... I don't feel safe knowing that you guys could attack us with Nukes, and knowing we don't have the ability to respond to such an aggression. Also, i don't feel safe knowing that a Nuclear war might take place in the Middle East, so why not make sure that all of us don't have such weapons ?



You know that there is a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, so why you need to worry about an Israeli attack? Just for the record in 1948 and in 1973 Egypt initiated the military offensive, not Israel while Israel's attacks in 1956 and 1967 were in response for direct provocations of Egypt: reinforcing the its military strength near the Israeli border and blockading the Gulf of Aqaba.

Israel's military strength is directed against the radical axis of states and terror organisations in the region: Iran, Syria, Hizbuhalla and Hamas. Until recently they were Egypt's adversaries too. 

Furthermore, Israel is a responsible country and it will not attack a country with WMD without a serious threat to its existence. So, If I were you I definitely would not worry about this things.

Israel is ready for a nuclear weapons free in the ME when it will enjoy normal and peaceful relations with all the countries in the region, including Iran.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Very logical stand but some people like nireich find double standard adopted by israel as logical.



Again, trolling.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Again, trolling.



As usual fighting to maintain your double standard.

*ISRAELI NUCLEAR THREATS AND BLACKMAIL*
The Samson Option Still Threatens the World
by Carol Moore, December 2009 version

1949: French and Israel atomic researchers start to exchange information. Israeli Defence Force Science Corps begins two year geological survey of the Negev desert in search of recoverable Uranium. 

1952: Israeli Atomic Energy Commission is created. Its chairman, Ernst David Bergmann of Israel's Weizman Institute of Science, "the father of Israel's bomb," has been promoting nuclear armed missiles for Israel since arriving after World War II. Newly elected President Eisenhower will refuse to sell arms to Israel during his two terms, ending in 1960. France sells them to Israel from 1955 to 1967. 

Israeli nuclear plant at Dimona, top. Mordechai Vanunu photo bottom. More Vanunu photos from inside Dimona here.

1955: Under Atoms for Peace program, overseen by pro-Israel Lewis Stauss who was head of America's Atomic Energy Commission, U.S. helps fund a small Israeli nuclear research reactor. Strauss learned about Dimona and its purpose before the U.S. government but did not inform the U.S. government.

1953: Israeli researchers perfect a process for extracting Uranium, and developing a new method of producing heavy water, which is a key ingredient in the process. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be raised to build Israel's nuclear bomb over the next twenty years, mostly from American Jews; effort is led by Abraham Feinberg who financially backs both Presidents Truman and Johnson, as well as presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson. (John F. Kennedy accepts his money but is incensed by the pro-Israel lobbying.)

1956: France and Israel formally and secretly agree to build a nuclear reactor in the Negev desert. Britain, France and Israel invade Egypt (Suez Canal crisis) and the Soviet Union threatens to use rockets against them if they do not desist, leading to a cease-fire. U.S. begins U-2 spy flights over targets world wide, including Israel.

1957: France and Israel sign a revised agreement calling for France to build a 24 MWt reactor; unwritten was the agreement to build a plutonium reprocessing plant.

1958: Israel breaks ground at Dimona, with assistance of French scientists and contractors, and U-2 spy planes provide evidence Israelis are building nuclear plant there.

1960: Israeli scientists witness first French atomic explosion in South Pacific. French President Charles DeGaulle threatens to cut off reactor fuel if Israel doesn't accept international inspections, but eventually accepts Israel's assertions Dimona is only for peaceful purposes and work continues. United States intelligence leaks to the press that Israel is building a secret nuclear facility that will eventually produce a nuclear bomb. Israel admits this to its Parliament and world but claims it is only for peaceful purposes.

1961: President Kennedy makes the man who leaked Israel's bomb to the press head of the CIA. Kennedy is very opposed to Israel having the bomb and tells Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion so in many letters and in meeting in New York about the purpose of Dimona. Ben-Gurion tells him its purpose is peaceful and refuses to allow international inspections. Israel launches its first rocket.

1962: Ben-Gurion allows inspections by American inspectors only in return for sales of Hawk surface-to-air missiles. Israel builds a fake control room and bricks off parts of buildings to hide from inspectors the true size and purpose of the reactor (three times bigger than admitted) and that it was connected to a plutonium reprocessing plant; this feint continues during seven such inspections until they end in 1969. Reactor at Dimona goes into operation.

1963: Kennedy refuses to sign any security arrangement with Israel. After Kennedy assassination brings the very pro-Israel Lyndon Johnson to power. (Not surprisingly there is an assassination conspiracy theory that the Mossad killed Kennedy.)

1964: Dimona plutonium processing plant goes online. In first official visit by an Israeli Prime Minister (Eshkol) to Washington, Johnson promises Israel offensive fighter jets and other weapons if it refrains from producing nuclear weapons. Israel's Eshkol eventually agrees to Johnson's terms and holds off on producing the bomb for a few years. China explodes first nuclear bomb.

1965: Israel performs its first plutonium extraction, and France assists Israel in developing its Jericho missiles.

1966: U.S. begins fighter jet and arms shipments to Israel. Johnson discourages further reports on Israel nuclear situation from U.S. embassy in Israel. Israel refuses money for nuclear desalination plant which is tied to international inspections of Dimona.

1967: Six Day War when Israel pre-emptively attacks an Egyptian military buildup in the Sinai Peninsula. Israel attacks USS Liberty surveillance vessel, killing 34 sailors; (see BBC allegation below that Israelis wanted to instigate a U.S. nuclear attack on Cairo). Soviet Union supports Arabs militarily, sends ships to the region and breaks diplomatic ties with Israel. Americans unofficially inform Israel that the Soviet Union has put four Israeli cities on its nuclear target list.

1968: Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, believing Israel cannot depend on the U.S. to defend it, unilaterally orders full production of nuclear weapons, averaging four to twelve per year, depending on size. Israel illicitly imports two hundred tons of uranium.

1969: President Richard Nixon takes office and fully supports Israel's nuclear weapons, as does his National Security chief Henry Kissinger. Ends American inspections at Dimona and shares some nuclear targeting information about the Soviet Union. CIA tries to inform President Johnson about Dimona, but he brushes off information, signs Nonproliferation Treaty, and sends Israel advanced Phantom fighter jets. 

1973: Israelis catch Soviet spy ring in high levels of Israeli government and make it clear to Soviets they have produced "suitcase nukes" they could sneak into Russia. Egypt and Syria attack unprepared Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Heights on the Jewish fast in Yom Kippur War. Israel goes on nuclear alert and begins to ready nuclear weapons for actual use, forcing the U.S. to airlift them weapons and to start redeploying nuclear armed ships and airplanes. When Soviets started talking about sending in Russian troops, Israel again goes on nuclear alert. Washington pressures Israel to accept a cease-fire.

1974: Defense Minister Dayan visits South Africa to discuss testing a nuclear weapon there.

1975: Israel receives nuclear-capable Lance missiles from the United States, even as U.S. remains in official denial about Israel having nuclear weapons.

1976: South Africa's Prime Minister visits Israel to sign several nuclear and other agreements.

1977: Menachem Begin's right wing expansionist Likud Party takes power in Israel and is determined to reshape Middle East to suit Israel's needs, including through using the nuclear threat. Commits to nuclear targeting of even more cities in the Soviet Union. President Carter does not take on the issue, despite conducting Camp David peace talks between Egypt and Israel.

1979: President Carter provides Israel ability to see American spy satellite photos for defense purposes only, but Israelis manage to get them for pre-emptive strikes against Middle East and Russia. Israel and South Africa explode first nuclear bomb in South Indian Ocean but appointed U.S. committee refuses to conclude it was a nuclear explosion.

1981: Israel, using U.S. spy satellite photos, sends F-16s to bomb and destroy Iraqi nuclear reactor under construction at Osirak. U.S. strictly limits further access to spy photos. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon recruits American Navy employee Jonathan Pollard as a spy to obtain satellite photos plus massive amounts of other classified information about Israel's enemies, some of which Israel turns over to the Soviet Union to try to win over its adversary. Ariel Sharon talks President Reagan into a formal Israel-U.S. military alliance against the Soviet Union but Defense Chief Weinberger delays and sabotages it.

1982: Under Ariel Sharon's military leadership, Israel invades Lebanon to attack Palestinian militants as first part of plan to drive Palestinians into Jordan, using the threat of nuclear weapons to intimidate any adversaries. However, despite destroying Beruit and killing more than ten thousand Arabs and 500 Israelis, Sharon's efforts in Lebanon fail. Israel eventually withdraws and Sharon loses his position.

1985: Jonathan Pollard captured leaving office with stolen papers. Eventually sentenced to life in prison.

1986: Mordechai Vanunu, a disaffected Dimona technician who left with photographs and other evidence of nuclear weapons production, publishes details in the London Sunday Times newspaper; reveals Israel has over 100 nuclear weapons. Israel starts disinformation campaign then lures him to Italy where he is kidnaped, taken to Israel and imprisoned for 18 years. He was released in spring of 2004 and remains under house arrest because of his continuing contact with the media.

1987: Israel test-fires a Jericho 2 missile capable of carrying a nulcear weapon. UN General Assembly and the IAEA General Conference passes first of more than a dozen resolutions calling on Israel to join the Nonproliferation Treaty.

1988: Israel launches its first spy satellite into orbit.

1991: U.S. convinces Israel to refrain from attacking Iraq with nuclear weapons, even if Iraq uses chemical or biological weapons against it, but Israel's nuclear weapons remain on alert.

1999: US Department of Energy document ranks Israel sixth among countries with nuclear weapons.

2000: Knesset debates Israel's nuclear weapons program for first time. Germany sells Israel three state-of-the-art 800-class Dolphin submarines and Israel tests first submarine-launched missile in the area of the Indian Ocean. Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel, still intending to use nuclear weapons to bully other nations and remake the Middle East for the benefit of Israel. George Bush is elected in the United state and his neoconservative allies fully intend that the United States help Sharon fulfill that mission. Right wing Israelis begin freely talking about attacking other nations, including with nuclear weapons.

2001: Bush inflames Arabs by clearly taking sides with Israel's expansionist aims, part of the reason for the September 11 attacks against the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. He obsesses about attacking Iraq, not defending America against known Al Queda terrorists. Starts planning war against Iraq after September 11 attacks, including option of using nuclear weapons.

2002: George Bush gives Israel the go-ahead to use nuclear weapons against Iraq if Saddam attacks Israel before the American invasion of Iraq. Pentagon Office of Special Plans uses information from Iraqi dissidents and Israel's Mossad to convince Americans that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction that are an imminent threat against America.  Israel launches Ofek-5 satellite with a powerful new inter-continental missile.

2003: Israel repeatedly demands sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program and threatens to bomb Iran's operating nuclear power plant, despite Iran's threats to retaliate hard against Israel. Russia may have sold Iran additional advanced missiles capable of shooting down Israeli bomber and fighter jets. Russian President Putin proposes Security Council formally call for establishment of a Palestinian state and arrests last of the Jewish "oligarchs" who bought state industries for pennies on the dollar under Yeltsin. Arab and other nations repeatedly ask that Israel nuclear facilities come under international inspections. So does the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Mohammed el-Baradei. United Nations General Assembly passes resolution that Israel join the nonproliferation treaty by a vote of 164-4. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon tells Israeli newspaper that Israel will not dismantle its &#8220;special measures&#8221; because the U.S. will not remain in the Middle East forever.

2004: Israel buys two more German submarines for delivering nuclear tipped cruise missiles, making a total of five. Mordechai Vanunu's prison term ends 2004 but Israel keeps putting him in prison and or under house arrest for trying to speak to others outside the country on nuclear issues and for wanting to leave Israel permanently.	
The phrase the &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; is used to describe Israel&#8217;s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against &#8220;enemy&#8221; nations should its existence as a Jewish state be jeopardized through military attack. Israeli leaders created the term in the mid-1960s, inspired by the Biblical figure Samson, who destroyed a Philistine temple, killing himself and thousands of Philistine enemies.[1][2]

Israel refuses to admit officially that it has nuclear weapons - a policy known as &#8220;nuclear ambiguity&#8221; or "nuclear opacity."[3] This despite government officials inferring repeatedly - and occasionally admitting - the fact. And despite Israeli nuclear whistle blower Mordechai Vanunu making public smuggled photographs of nuclear weapons and production equipment in the 1980s.[4] Israel now may have as many as 400 atomic and hydrogen nuclear weapons,[5][6] as well as the ability to launch them via long range missiles, submarines and aircraft.[7] It can use them in a second strike even if its military is devastated.

Originally a strategy of last resort retaliation - even if it means Israel&#8217;s annihilation - it has developed into being a nuclear bullying strategy to further Israel&#8217;s territorial goals through threats and blackmail. Israel has bullied not only Arab and Muslim nations, but the United States and Russia with its Samson Option threats. Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Israel uses for purposes of blackmail its ability to "bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States."[8]

Official policy and threats

During the 1960s Israel concentrated on conventional military superiority to defend lands confiscated in the 1948 and 1967 wars - and to convince Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories that they could not break free of it. However, in 1973's Yom Kippur War Israel was almost overwhelmed by Arab forces. Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert, ordering 13 atomic bombs be prepared for missiles and aircraft. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Simha Dinitz threatened &#8220;very serious conclusions" if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies.[9] This forced U.S. President Richard Nixon to make emergency airlifts of state of the art military supplies to Israel.[10][11]

Fearing intervention by the Soviet Union, U.S. forces went on Defense Condition (DEFCON) III alert status[12], something which could have led to full scale nuclear war in case of misinterpretation of signals or hardware or software failures. Additionally, as Seymour Hersh documents in detail in his book The Samson Option, from 1973 these weapons have been used to discourage the Soviet Union - now Russia - from intervening militarily on behalf of Arab nations.[13] Obviously an Israeli nuclear attack on Russia by the United States&#8217; great ally Israel would result in Russia sending thousands of nuclear weapons towards the U.S. and the U.S. responding in kind.

Not surprisingly, no nation state has attempted to attack Israel since 1973. A former Israeli official justified Israel&#8217;s threats. &#8220;You Americans screwed us&#8221; in not supporting Israel in its 1956 war with Egypt. &#8220;We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we&#8217;ll take all of you with us.&#8221;[14] General Moshe Dayan, a leading promoter of Israel&#8217;s nuclear program[15], has been quoted as saying &#8220;Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.&#8221;[16] Amos Rubin, an economic adviser to former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."[17]

In 1977, after a right-wing coalition under Menachen Begin took power, the Israelis began to use the Samson Option not just to deter attack but to allow Israel to &#8220;redraw the political map of the Middle East&#8221; by expanding hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers into the West Bank and Gaza.[18] Then-Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon said things like "We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the middle east with us whenever we go"[19] and "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."[20] He proclaimed his - and many Likud Party members' - goals of transforming Jordan into a Palestinian state and &#8220;transferring&#8221; all Palestinian refugees there.[21][22] A practice known worldwide as "ethnic cleansing."

To dissuade the Soviet Union from interfering with its plans, Prime Minister Begin immediately &#8220;gave orders to target more Soviet cities&#8221; for potential nuclear attack. Its American spy Jonathan Pollard was caught stealing such nuclear targeting information from the U.S. military in 1985.[23]

During the next 25 years Israel became more militarily adventurous, bombing Iraq&#8217;s under-construction Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, invading Lebanon to destroy Palestinian refugee camps in 1982 and to fight Hezbollah in 2006, massively bombing civilian targets in the West Bank Jenin refugee camp in 2002 and thoughout Gaza in 2008-2009. There are conflicting reports about whether Israel went on nuclear alert and armed missiles with nuclear weapons during the 1991 Gulf War after Iraq shot conventionally armed scud missiles into it.[24][25]

In 2002, while the United States was building for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon threatened that if Israel was attacked &#8220;Israel will react. Is it clear?&#8221;[26] Israeli defense analyst Zeev Schiff explained: &#8220;Israel could respond with a nuclear retaliation that would eradicate Iraq as a country.&#8221; It is believed President Bush gave Sharon the green-light to attack Baghdad in retaliation, including with nuclear weapons, but only if attacks came before the American military invasion.[27]

Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that nuclear weapons are used by Israel for &#8220;compellent purposes&#8221; - i.e., forcing others to accept Israeli political demands.[28] In 1998 Peres was quoted as saying, "We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo," referring to imposing a settlement on the Palestinians.[29]

In her book Israel&#8217;s Sacred Terrorism Livia Rokach documented how Israelis have used religion to justify paramilitary and state terrorism to create and maintain a Jewish State.[30] Two other Israeli retaliation strategies are the popularized phrase &#8220;Wrath of God,&#8221; the alleged Israeli assassination of those it held responsible for the 1972 killings of Israeli athletes during the Munich Olympics[31], and the &#8220;Dahiya doctrine&#8221; of destruction of civilian areas to punish Palestinians for supporting their leaders.[32]

Israeli Israel Shahak wrote in 1997: "Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East...without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."[33] Zeev Schiff opined in 1998 that "Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear threats have become a problem."[34] In 2003 David Hirst noted that &#8220;The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days&#8221; and called Israel a candidate for &#8220;the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.&#8221;[35] Noam Chomsky said of the Samson Option &#8220;the craziness of the state is not because the people are insane. Once you pick a policy of choosing expansion over security, that's what you end up getting stuck with.&#8221;[36] Efraim Karsh calls the Samson Option the &#8220;rationality of pretended irrationality,&#8221; but warns that seeming too irrational could encourage other nations to attack Israel in their own defense.[37]

Samson Option Supporters

Two Israel supporters are frequently quoted for their explicit support of the Samson Option. Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has been quoted as saying: "Most European capitals are targets for our air force....We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."[38]

In 2002 the Los Angeles Times, published an opinion piece by Louisiana State University professor David Perlmutter in which he wrote: "What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens? For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?"[39]

Two influential Israel supporters advocate more active use of the Samson Option threat. Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University and an Ariel Sharon advisor, recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to support conventional preemptive attacks against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets, discouraging conventional retaliation.[40] Jerome Corsi, a Harvard Ph.D. in political science and author of two books encouraging Israel to use nuclear weapons[41], writes that &#8220;Israel's Samson Option&#8221; could be &#8220;a preemptive strike against Iran.&#8221;[42]

The Israelis also are egged on in its nuclear threats by "Christian Zionists" like Hal Lindsay who believe Israel must expand its control of territory to its Biblical borders in order to bring about Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ.[43] Some suspect that former President George W. Bush holds such beliefs,[44] especially after his November 2007 statement "If you want to see World War Three, you know, a way to do that is to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon."[45] 

Israeli Threats Against Iran

Israel&#8217;s threats to use nuclear weapons, including preemptively, have increased greatly since the revelation in 2002 that Iran was building uranium enrichment facilities. That year Prime Minister Ariel Sharon demanded that the international community target Iran as soon as it was finished dealing with Iraq.[46]

Unlike Israel, Iran has accepted supervision of its nuclear program under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iran claims its program is only for production of nuclear power as oil becomes more scarce and expensive, and not for nuclear weapons. However, Israel opposes any challenge to its nuclear hegemony since not only would it be less able to use its nuclear threat to keep confiscated lands, but fear of Iran actually might cause citizens to leave Israel and investment to dry up.[47][48] Israel also must worry about other &#8220;enemy&#8221; Arab nations which already are seeking or soon may seek nuclear energy.[49]

In 2004 Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said that Israel would consider "all options" to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons.[50] Rumors and warnings of an impending Israeli attack on Iran&#8217;s facilities, including possibly with nuclear weapons, have circulated repeatedly since that time.[51][52]

Meanwhile, Israel still considers Russia a target because of its technical assistance to Iran&#8217;s nuclear program and its continued arms sales to Iran and other &#8220;enemy&#8221; nations.[53] [54][55] In 2007 Israeli officials warned Russia: "We hope they understand that this is a threat that could come back to them as well."[56]

In 2005 George Bush admitted that the U.S. would support an Israeli attack on Iran.[57] Soon after his election President Barak Obama seemed to accept the inevitability of an Iranian nuclear bomb.[58] However, in early 2009 Likud Party hawk Benjamin Netanyahu was elected Israeli Prime Minister. Netanyahu already had threatened that Israel would attack Iran to stop its nuclear program if Obama did not do so.[59] Considering Iran&#8217;s threats to retaliate, this easily could lead to a &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; scenario.[60][61] After May[62] and September meetings with Netanyahu in 2009, Obama threatened Iran with attack if it did not &#8220;come clean about&#8221; and curb its nuclear program.[63][64] This statement came a day after Netanyahus&#8217; speech to the United Nations where he invoked the memory of Auschwitz and family members slain by Nazis.[65] Obama also has suffered constant pressure to take a more belligerent stand against Iran from neoconservatives and the &#8220;Israel lobby.&#8221;[66][67][68][69]

Too few peace or political activists, left or right, are willing to challenge Israel&#8217;s Samson Option threats or even to make a nuclear free Middle East a central demand.[70] Until military and political leaders, as well as activists, are willing to change U.S. policy of defacto support for Israel&#8217;s Samson Option the whole world remains a potential victim of this horrific strategy.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> As usual fighting to maintain your double standard.
> 
> *ISRAELI NUCLEAR THREATS AND BLACKMAIL*
> The Samson Option Still Threatens the World
> by Carol Moore, December 2009 version
> 
> 1949: French and Israel atomic researchers start to exchange information. Israeli Defence Force Science Corps begins two year geological survey of the Negev desert in search of recoverable Uranium.
> 
> 1952: Israeli Atomic Energy Commission is created. Its chairman, Ernst David Bergmann of Israel's Weizman Institute of Science, "the father of Israel's bomb," has been promoting nuclear armed missiles for Israel since arriving after World War II. Newly elected President Eisenhower will refuse to sell arms to Israel during his two terms, ending in 1960. France sells them to Israel from 1955 to 1967.
> 
> Israeli nuclear plant at Dimona, top. Mordechai Vanunu photo bottom. More Vanunu photos from inside Dimona here.
> 
> 1955: Under Atoms for Peace program, overseen by pro-Israel Lewis Stauss who was head of America's Atomic Energy Commission, U.S. helps fund a small Israeli nuclear research reactor. Strauss learned about Dimona and its purpose before the U.S. government but did not inform the U.S. government.
> 
> 1953: Israeli researchers perfect a process for extracting Uranium, and developing a new method of producing heavy water, which is a key ingredient in the process. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be raised to build Israel's nuclear bomb over the next twenty years, mostly from American Jews; effort is led by Abraham Feinberg who financially backs both Presidents Truman and Johnson, as well as presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson. (John F. Kennedy accepts his money but is incensed by the pro-Israel lobbying.)
> 
> 1956: France and Israel formally and secretly agree to build a nuclear reactor in the Negev desert. Britain, France and Israel invade Egypt (Suez Canal crisis) and the Soviet Union threatens to use rockets against them if they do not desist, leading to a cease-fire. U.S. begins U-2 spy flights over targets world wide, including Israel.
> 
> 1957: France and Israel sign a revised agreement calling for France to build a 24 MWt reactor; unwritten was the agreement to build a plutonium reprocessing plant.
> 
> 1958: Israel breaks ground at Dimona, with assistance of French scientists and contractors, and U-2 spy planes provide evidence Israelis are building nuclear plant there.
> 
> 1960: Israeli scientists witness first French atomic explosion in South Pacific. French President Charles DeGaulle threatens to cut off reactor fuel if Israel doesn't accept international inspections, but eventually accepts Israel's assertions Dimona is only for peaceful purposes and work continues. United States intelligence leaks to the press that Israel is building a secret nuclear facility that will eventually produce a nuclear bomb. Israel admits this to its Parliament and world but claims it is only for peaceful purposes.
> 
> 1961: President Kennedy makes the man who leaked Israel's bomb to the press head of the CIA. Kennedy is very opposed to Israel having the bomb and tells Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion so in many letters and in meeting in New York about the purpose of Dimona. Ben-Gurion tells him its purpose is peaceful and refuses to allow international inspections. Israel launches its first rocket.
> 
> 1962: Ben-Gurion allows inspections by American inspectors only in return for sales of Hawk surface-to-air missiles. Israel builds a fake control room and bricks off parts of buildings to hide from inspectors the true size and purpose of the reactor (three times bigger than admitted) and that it was connected to a plutonium reprocessing plant; this feint continues during seven such inspections until they end in 1969. Reactor at Dimona goes into operation.
> 
> 1963: Kennedy refuses to sign any security arrangement with Israel. After Kennedy assassination brings the very pro-Israel Lyndon Johnson to power. (Not surprisingly there is an assassination conspiracy theory that the Mossad killed Kennedy.)
> 
> 1964: Dimona plutonium processing plant goes online. In first official visit by an Israeli Prime Minister (Eshkol) to Washington, Johnson promises Israel offensive fighter jets and other weapons if it refrains from producing nuclear weapons. Israel's Eshkol eventually agrees to Johnson's terms and holds off on producing the bomb for a few years. China explodes first nuclear bomb.
> 
> 1965: Israel performs its first plutonium extraction, and France assists Israel in developing its Jericho missiles.
> 
> 1966: U.S. begins fighter jet and arms shipments to Israel. Johnson discourages further reports on Israel nuclear situation from U.S. embassy in Israel. Israel refuses money for nuclear desalination plant which is tied to international inspections of Dimona.
> 
> 1967: Six Day War when Israel pre-emptively attacks an Egyptian military buildup in the Sinai Peninsula. Israel attacks USS Liberty surveillance vessel, killing 34 sailors; (see BBC allegation below that Israelis wanted to instigate a U.S. nuclear attack on Cairo). Soviet Union supports Arabs militarily, sends ships to the region and breaks diplomatic ties with Israel. Americans unofficially inform Israel that the Soviet Union has put four Israeli cities on its nuclear target list.
> 
> 1968: Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, believing Israel cannot depend on the U.S. to defend it, unilaterally orders full production of nuclear weapons, averaging four to twelve per year, depending on size. Israel illicitly imports two hundred tons of uranium.
> 
> 1969: President Richard Nixon takes office and fully supports Israel's nuclear weapons, as does his National Security chief Henry Kissinger. Ends American inspections at Dimona and shares some nuclear targeting information about the Soviet Union. CIA tries to inform President Johnson about Dimona, but he brushes off information, signs Nonproliferation Treaty, and sends Israel advanced Phantom fighter jets.
> 
> 1973: Israelis catch Soviet spy ring in high levels of Israeli government and make it clear to Soviets they have produced "suitcase nukes" they could sneak into Russia. Egypt and Syria attack unprepared Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Heights on the Jewish fast in Yom Kippur War. Israel goes on nuclear alert and begins to ready nuclear weapons for actual use, forcing the U.S. to airlift them weapons and to start redeploying nuclear armed ships and airplanes. When Soviets started talking about sending in Russian troops, Israel again goes on nuclear alert. Washington pressures Israel to accept a cease-fire.
> 
> 1974: Defense Minister Dayan visits South Africa to discuss testing a nuclear weapon there.
> 
> 1975: Israel receives nuclear-capable Lance missiles from the United States, even as U.S. remains in official denial about Israel having nuclear weapons.
> 
> 1976: South Africa's Prime Minister visits Israel to sign several nuclear and other agreements.
> 
> 1977: Menachem Begin's right wing expansionist Likud Party takes power in Israel and is determined to reshape Middle East to suit Israel's needs, including through using the nuclear threat. Commits to nuclear targeting of even more cities in the Soviet Union. President Carter does not take on the issue, despite conducting Camp David peace talks between Egypt and Israel.
> 
> 1979: President Carter provides Israel ability to see American spy satellite photos for defense purposes only, but Israelis manage to get them for pre-emptive strikes against Middle East and Russia. Israel and South Africa explode first nuclear bomb in South Indian Ocean but appointed U.S. committee refuses to conclude it was a nuclear explosion.
> 
> 1981: Israel, using U.S. spy satellite photos, sends F-16s to bomb and destroy Iraqi nuclear reactor under construction at Osirak. U.S. strictly limits further access to spy photos. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon recruits American Navy employee Jonathan Pollard as a spy to obtain satellite photos plus massive amounts of other classified information about Israel's enemies, some of which Israel turns over to the Soviet Union to try to win over its adversary. Ariel Sharon talks President Reagan into a formal Israel-U.S. military alliance against the Soviet Union but Defense Chief Weinberger delays and sabotages it.
> 
> 1982: Under Ariel Sharon's military leadership, Israel invades Lebanon to attack Palestinian militants as first part of plan to drive Palestinians into Jordan, using the threat of nuclear weapons to intimidate any adversaries. However, despite destroying Beruit and killing more than ten thousand Arabs and 500 Israelis, Sharon's efforts in Lebanon fail. Israel eventually withdraws and Sharon loses his position.
> 
> 1985: Jonathan Pollard captured leaving office with stolen papers. Eventually sentenced to life in prison.
> 
> 1986: Mordechai Vanunu, a disaffected Dimona technician who left with photographs and other evidence of nuclear weapons production, publishes details in the London Sunday Times newspaper; reveals Israel has over 100 nuclear weapons. Israel starts disinformation campaign then lures him to Italy where he is kidnaped, taken to Israel and imprisoned for 18 years. He was released in spring of 2004 and remains under house arrest because of his continuing contact with the media.
> 
> 1987: Israel test-fires a Jericho 2 missile capable of carrying a nulcear weapon. UN General Assembly and the IAEA General Conference passes first of more than a dozen resolutions calling on Israel to join the Nonproliferation Treaty.
> 
> 1988: Israel launches its first spy satellite into orbit.
> 
> 1991: U.S. convinces Israel to refrain from attacking Iraq with nuclear weapons, even if Iraq uses chemical or biological weapons against it, but Israel's nuclear weapons remain on alert.
> 
> 1999: US Department of Energy document ranks Israel sixth among countries with nuclear weapons.
> 
> 2000: Knesset debates Israel's nuclear weapons program for first time. Germany sells Israel three state-of-the-art 800-class Dolphin submarines and Israel tests first submarine-launched missile in the area of the Indian Ocean. Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel, still intending to use nuclear weapons to bully other nations and remake the Middle East for the benefit of Israel. George Bush is elected in the United state and his neoconservative allies fully intend that the United States help Sharon fulfill that mission. Right wing Israelis begin freely talking about attacking other nations, including with nuclear weapons.
> 
> 2001: Bush inflames Arabs by clearly taking sides with Israel's expansionist aims, part of the reason for the September 11 attacks against the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. He obsesses about attacking Iraq, not defending America against known Al Queda terrorists. Starts planning war against Iraq after September 11 attacks, including option of using nuclear weapons.
> 
> 2002: George Bush gives Israel the go-ahead to use nuclear weapons against Iraq if Saddam attacks Israel before the American invasion of Iraq. Pentagon Office of Special Plans uses information from Iraqi dissidents and Israel's Mossad to convince Americans that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction that are an imminent threat against America. Israel launches Ofek-5 satellite with a powerful new inter-continental missile.
> 
> 2003: Israel repeatedly demands sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program and threatens to bomb Iran's operating nuclear power plant, despite Iran's threats to retaliate hard against Israel. Russia may have sold Iran additional advanced missiles capable of shooting down Israeli bomber and fighter jets. Russian President Putin proposes Security Council formally call for establishment of a Palestinian state and arrests last of the Jewish "oligarchs" who bought state industries for pennies on the dollar under Yeltsin. Arab and other nations repeatedly ask that Israel nuclear facilities come under international inspections. So does the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Mohammed el-Baradei. United Nations General Assembly passes resolution that Israel join the nonproliferation treaty by a vote of 164-4. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon tells Israeli newspaper that Israel will not dismantle its &#8220;special measures&#8221; because the U.S. will not remain in the Middle East forever.
> 
> 2004: Israel buys two more German submarines for delivering nuclear tipped cruise missiles, making a total of five. Mordechai Vanunu's prison term ends 2004 but Israel keeps putting him in prison and or under house arrest for trying to speak to others outside the country on nuclear issues and for wanting to leave Israel permanently.
> The phrase the &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; is used to describe Israel&#8217;s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against &#8220;enemy&#8221; nations should its existence as a Jewish state be jeopardized through military attack. Israeli leaders created the term in the mid-1960s, inspired by the Biblical figure Samson, who destroyed a Philistine temple, killing himself and thousands of Philistine enemies.[1][2]
> 
> Israel refuses to admit officially that it has nuclear weapons - a policy known as &#8220;nuclear ambiguity&#8221; or "nuclear opacity."[3] This despite government officials inferring repeatedly - and occasionally admitting - the fact. And despite Israeli nuclear whistle blower Mordechai Vanunu making public smuggled photographs of nuclear weapons and production equipment in the 1980s.[4] Israel now may have as many as 400 atomic and hydrogen nuclear weapons,[5][6] as well as the ability to launch them via long range missiles, submarines and aircraft.[7] It can use them in a second strike even if its military is devastated.
> 
> Originally a strategy of last resort retaliation - even if it means Israel&#8217;s annihilation - it has developed into being a nuclear bullying strategy to further Israel&#8217;s territorial goals through threats and blackmail. Israel has bullied not only Arab and Muslim nations, but the United States and Russia with its Samson Option threats. Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Israel uses for purposes of blackmail its ability to "bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States."[8]
> 
> Official policy and threats
> 
> During the 1960s Israel concentrated on conventional military superiority to defend lands confiscated in the 1948 and 1967 wars - and to convince Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories that they could not break free of it. However, in 1973's Yom Kippur War Israel was almost overwhelmed by Arab forces. Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert, ordering 13 atomic bombs be prepared for missiles and aircraft. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Simha Dinitz threatened &#8220;very serious conclusions" if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies.[9] This forced U.S. President Richard Nixon to make emergency airlifts of state of the art military supplies to Israel.[10][11]
> 
> Fearing intervention by the Soviet Union, U.S. forces went on Defense Condition (DEFCON) III alert status[12], something which could have led to full scale nuclear war in case of misinterpretation of signals or hardware or software failures. Additionally, as Seymour Hersh documents in detail in his book The Samson Option, from 1973 these weapons have been used to discourage the Soviet Union - now Russia - from intervening militarily on behalf of Arab nations.[13] Obviously an Israeli nuclear attack on Russia by the United States&#8217; great ally Israel would result in Russia sending thousands of nuclear weapons towards the U.S. and the U.S. responding in kind.
> 
> Not surprisingly, no nation state has attempted to attack Israel since 1973. A former Israeli official justified Israel&#8217;s threats. &#8220;You Americans screwed us&#8221; in not supporting Israel in its 1956 war with Egypt. &#8220;We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we&#8217;ll take all of you with us.&#8221;[14] General Moshe Dayan, a leading promoter of Israel&#8217;s nuclear program[15], has been quoted as saying &#8220;Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.&#8221;[16] Amos Rubin, an economic adviser to former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."[17]
> 
> In 1977, after a right-wing coalition under Menachen Begin took power, the Israelis began to use the Samson Option not just to deter attack but to allow Israel to &#8220;redraw the political map of the Middle East&#8221; by expanding hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers into the West Bank and Gaza.[18] Then-Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon said things like "We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the middle east with us whenever we go"[19] and "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."[20] He proclaimed his - and many Likud Party members' - goals of transforming Jordan into a Palestinian state and &#8220;transferring&#8221; all Palestinian refugees there.[21][22] A practice known worldwide as "ethnic cleansing."
> 
> To dissuade the Soviet Union from interfering with its plans, Prime Minister Begin immediately &#8220;gave orders to target more Soviet cities&#8221; for potential nuclear attack. Its American spy Jonathan Pollard was caught stealing such nuclear targeting information from the U.S. military in 1985.[23]
> 
> During the next 25 years Israel became more militarily adventurous, bombing Iraq&#8217;s under-construction Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, invading Lebanon to destroy Palestinian refugee camps in 1982 and to fight Hezbollah in 2006, massively bombing civilian targets in the West Bank Jenin refugee camp in 2002 and thoughout Gaza in 2008-2009. There are conflicting reports about whether Israel went on nuclear alert and armed missiles with nuclear weapons during the 1991 Gulf War after Iraq shot conventionally armed scud missiles into it.[24][25]
> 
> In 2002, while the United States was building for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon threatened that if Israel was attacked &#8220;Israel will react. Is it clear?&#8221;[26] Israeli defense analyst Zeev Schiff explained: &#8220;Israel could respond with a nuclear retaliation that would eradicate Iraq as a country.&#8221; It is believed President Bush gave Sharon the green-light to attack Baghdad in retaliation, including with nuclear weapons, but only if attacks came before the American military invasion.[27]
> 
> Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that nuclear weapons are used by Israel for &#8220;compellent purposes&#8221; - i.e., forcing others to accept Israeli political demands.[28] In 1998 Peres was quoted as saying, "We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo," referring to imposing a settlement on the Palestinians.[29]
> 
> In her book Israel&#8217;s Sacred Terrorism Livia Rokach documented how Israelis have used religion to justify paramilitary and state terrorism to create and maintain a Jewish State.[30] Two other Israeli retaliation strategies are the popularized phrase &#8220;Wrath of God,&#8221; the alleged Israeli assassination of those it held responsible for the 1972 killings of Israeli athletes during the Munich Olympics[31], and the &#8220;Dahiya doctrine&#8221; of destruction of civilian areas to punish Palestinians for supporting their leaders.[32]
> 
> Israeli Israel Shahak wrote in 1997: "Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East...without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."[33] Zeev Schiff opined in 1998 that "Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear threats have become a problem."[34] In 2003 David Hirst noted that &#8220;The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days&#8221; and called Israel a candidate for &#8220;the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.&#8221;[35] Noam Chomsky said of the Samson Option &#8220;the craziness of the state is not because the people are insane. Once you pick a policy of choosing expansion over security, that's what you end up getting stuck with.&#8221;[36] Efraim Karsh calls the Samson Option the &#8220;rationality of pretended irrationality,&#8221; but warns that seeming too irrational could encourage other nations to attack Israel in their own defense.[37]
> 
> Samson Option Supporters
> 
> Two Israel supporters are frequently quoted for their explicit support of the Samson Option. Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has been quoted as saying: "Most European capitals are targets for our air force....We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."[38]
> 
> In 2002 the Los Angeles Times, published an opinion piece by Louisiana State University professor David Perlmutter in which he wrote: "What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens? For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?"[39]
> 
> Two influential Israel supporters advocate more active use of the Samson Option threat. Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University and an Ariel Sharon advisor, recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to support conventional preemptive attacks against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets, discouraging conventional retaliation.[40] Jerome Corsi, a Harvard Ph.D. in political science and author of two books encouraging Israel to use nuclear weapons[41], writes that &#8220;Israel's Samson Option&#8221; could be &#8220;a preemptive strike against Iran.&#8221;[42]
> 
> The Israelis also are egged on in its nuclear threats by "Christian Zionists" like Hal Lindsay who believe Israel must expand its control of territory to its Biblical borders in order to bring about Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ.[43] Some suspect that former President George W. Bush holds such beliefs,[44] especially after his November 2007 statement "If you want to see World War Three, you know, a way to do that is to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon."[45]
> 
> Israeli Threats Against Iran
> 
> Israel&#8217;s threats to use nuclear weapons, including preemptively, have increased greatly since the revelation in 2002 that Iran was building uranium enrichment facilities. That year Prime Minister Ariel Sharon demanded that the international community target Iran as soon as it was finished dealing with Iraq.[46]
> 
> Unlike Israel, Iran has accepted supervision of its nuclear program under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iran claims its program is only for production of nuclear power as oil becomes more scarce and expensive, and not for nuclear weapons. However, Israel opposes any challenge to its nuclear hegemony since not only would it be less able to use its nuclear threat to keep confiscated lands, but fear of Iran actually might cause citizens to leave Israel and investment to dry up.[47][48] Israel also must worry about other &#8220;enemy&#8221; Arab nations which already are seeking or soon may seek nuclear energy.[49]
> 
> In 2004 Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said that Israel would consider "all options" to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons.[50] Rumors and warnings of an impending Israeli attack on Iran&#8217;s facilities, including possibly with nuclear weapons, have circulated repeatedly since that time.[51][52]
> 
> Meanwhile, Israel still considers Russia a target because of its technical assistance to Iran&#8217;s nuclear program and its continued arms sales to Iran and other &#8220;enemy&#8221; nations.[53] [54][55] In 2007 Israeli officials warned Russia: "We hope they understand that this is a threat that could come back to them as well."[56]
> 
> In 2005 George Bush admitted that the U.S. would support an Israeli attack on Iran.[57] Soon after his election President Barak Obama seemed to accept the inevitability of an Iranian nuclear bomb.[58] However, in early 2009 Likud Party hawk Benjamin Netanyahu was elected Israeli Prime Minister. Netanyahu already had threatened that Israel would attack Iran to stop its nuclear program if Obama did not do so.[59] Considering Iran&#8217;s threats to retaliate, this easily could lead to a &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; scenario.[60][61] After May[62] and September meetings with Netanyahu in 2009, Obama threatened Iran with attack if it did not &#8220;come clean about&#8221; and curb its nuclear program.[63][64] This statement came a day after Netanyahus&#8217; speech to the United Nations where he invoked the memory of Auschwitz and family members slain by Nazis.[65] Obama also has suffered constant pressure to take a more belligerent stand against Iran from neoconservatives and the &#8220;Israel lobby.&#8221;[66][67][68][69]
> 
> Too few peace or political activists, left or right, are willing to challenge Israel&#8217;s Samson Option threats or even to make a nuclear free Middle East a central demand.[70] Until military and political leaders, as well as activists, are willing to change U.S. policy of defacto support for Israel&#8217;s Samson Option the whole world remains a potential victim of this horrific strategy.



OK, now we all know that you are a troll that masters the art of cut-and-paste.

This is a distorted report with no references, but it does not matter: even if I prove that each of the above quotes is false and out of context, you will continue to believe in your lies. 

You are an anti-Semite who attaches zero importance to the truth or to the facts. As long as lies serve your purpose, you are pleased with yourself.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> OK, now we all know that you are a troll that masters the art of cut-and-paste.
> 
> This is a distorted report with no references, but it does not matter: even if I prove that each of the above quotes is false and out of context, you will continue to believe in your lies.
> 
> You are an anti-Semite who attaches zero importance to the truth or to the facts. As long as lies serve your purpose, you are pleased with yourself.



Nope, the report isn't distorted but you're about to distort it, that's what you're good at.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Nope, the report isn't distorted but you're about to distort it, that's what you're good at.



How can you tell if the report is distorted or not? You proved it many times that you do not have any understanding about Israel, the ME, nuclear weapons, international affairs etc.

You just belive in your anti-Semite figment ideas and you do not let the facts interrupt you.

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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> How can you tell if the report is distorted or not? You proved it many times that you do not have any understanding about Israel, the ME, nuclear weapons, international affairs etc.
> 
> You just belive in your anti-Semite figment ideas and you do not let the facts interrupt you.



Let me rephrase your crap, I don't let your zionist BS interrupt me.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Let me rephrase your crap, I don't let your zionist BS interrupt me.



As I said, you do not let reality penetrate into the anti-Semite fantasies your build in your imagination.

I guess that your degenerated approach is the reason behind the "greatness" of your country and the "success story" of the Muslim Ummah.

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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> As I said, you do not let reality penetrate into the anti-Semite fantasies your build in your imagination.
> 
> I guess that your degenerated approach is the reason behind the "greatness" of your country and the "success story" of the Muslim Ummah.



The topic is *the threat emanating from the israeli nukes *and you use epithets to suppress it, now, that is a scumbag approach.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> The topic is *the threat emanating from the israeli nukes *and you use epithets to suppress it, now, that is a scumbag approach.



the discussion with you on this topic is over since a dialogue is a bit too much to your intellectual capacity.

I have already gave a negative answer to the question of this thread, explained why, brought examples, and confronted legitimate criticism and opinions of other PDF members.

You, on the other hand, from your first post just trolled again and again and again and ran from any reasonable discussion.

Since you are an anti-Semite this is the only approach you can take - shameful, ugly, and infantile.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> the discussion with you on this topic is over since a dialogue is a bit too much to your intellectual capacity.
> 
> I have already gave a negative answer to the question of this thread, explained why, brought examples, and confronted legitimate criticism and opinions of other PDF members.
> 
> You, on the other hand, from your first post just trolled again and again and again and ran from any reasonable discussion.
> 
> Since you are an anti-Semite this is the only approach you can take - shameful, ugly, and infantile.



We understand why you're in hurry to end the discussion on this topic, but too bad it's not going to go away. You can run but you can't hide, *the threat of the israeli nuke is real *and it must be addressed, nobody gives a hoot to your likes or dislikes.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> We understand why you're in hurry to end the discussion on this topic, but too bad it's not going to go away. You can run but you can't hide, *the threat of the israeli nuke is real *and it must be addressed, nobody gives a hoot to your likes or dislikes.



if you have not noticed, the discussion was over 20 pages ago when you failed to make any dialogue on the subject and I dismissed your arguments one by one. Now, there is you trolling and me mocking your stupidity.

Hence, this thread should be closed, the sooner the better.


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## agentny17

nirreich said:


> You know that there is a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, so why you need to worry about an Israeli attack? Just for the record in 1948 and in 1973 Egypt initiated the military offensive, not Israel while Israel's attacks in 1956 and 1967 were in response for direct provocations of Egypt: reinforcing the its military strength near the Israeli border and blockading the Gulf of Aqaba.
> 
> Israel's military strength is directed against the radical axis of states and terror organisations in the region: Iran, Syria, Hizbuhalla and Hamas. Until recently they were Egypt's adversaries too.
> 
> Furthermore, Israel is a responsible country and it will not attack a country with WMD without a serious threat to its existence. So, If I were you I definitely would not worry about this things.
> 
> Israel is ready for a nuclear weapons free in the ME when it will enjoy normal and peaceful relations with all the countries in the region, including Iran.


I am not going to argue about the 1948 war, and lets just say that Egypt attacked you guys, but in 1973 we attacked because you guys refused to give us our land that you guys captured in 1967, it was a defensive war... What i am saying is that you guys attacked Egypt 3 times before, how could i be sure that you guys won't do it again with Nukes if things get messy with us again ?.... Instead of all of us having Nukes or trying to get them, why don't we just get rid of them and make sure that none of us try to aquire them ? 

I understand that we have a peace treaty, and i am all for respecting it, and i hope you guys could live in peace with all the countries in the ME including independent palestinian state. On the other hand, i don't feel safe living next to you guys while you guys have nukes and we don't, and i am not sure you guys actually want peace and want nuclear weapons free zone in the Mddle East. Also, you having problems with Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hizbuhalla doesn't give you the right to Nuke them. They don't have Nukes, why do you ?


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> if you have not noticed, the discussion was over 20 pages ago when you failed to make any dialogue on the subject and I dismissed your arguments one by one. Now, there is you trolling and me mocking your stupidity.
> 
> Hence, this thread should be closed, the sooner the better.



This is how the zionists hide their evils from the world, but it's not going to work here and you can see the thread is open and* it is going to remain open until israel removes the nukes from its arsenal*.


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## 500

agentny17 said:


> We should worry because you guys attacked us more than once


We never attacked u.



> what if you guys go crazy again and attack us with Nukes this time ?


So far only u used WMD against own brothers.

---------- Post added at 06:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------




secularbuster said:


> This is how the zionists hide their evils from the world, but it's not going to work here and you can see the thread is open and* it is going to remain open until israel removes the nukes from its arsenal*.


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## secularbuster

500 said:


> We never attacked u.
> 
> 
> So far only u used WMD against own brothers.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------



Yeah, you're right, these villains indeed behave like the zionists, but I don't find any relevance of it here. Matter of fact, these villains don't claim that only they have the right to possess WMDs, so they're better than the zionists.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> This is how the zionists hide their evils from the world, but it's not going to work here and you can see the thread is open and* it is going to remain open until israel removes the nukes from its arsenal*.



Just trolling.


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## nirreich

agentny17 said:


> I am not going to argue about the 1948 war, and lets just say that Egypt attacked you guys, but in 1973 we attacked because you guys refused to give us our land that you guys captured in 1967, it was a defensive war... What i am saying is that you guys attacked Egypt 3 times before, how could i be sure that you guys won't do it again with Nukes if things get messy with us again ?.... Instead of all of us having Nukes or trying to get them, why don't we just get rid of them and make sure that none of us try to aquire them ?
> 
> I understand that we have a peace treaty, and i am all for respecting it, and i hope you guys could live in peace with all the countries in the ME including independent palestinian state. On the other hand, i don't feel safe living next to you guys while you guys have nukes and we don't, and i am not sure you guys actually want peace and want nuclear weapons free zone in the Mddle East. Also, you having problems with Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hizbuhalla doesn't give you the right to Nuke them. They don't have Nukes, why do you ?



We are in agreement that the ME should be without any nuclear weapons and I hope that we will live to see this desirable times. Egypt has done the right choice by avoiding developing nuclear weapons.

However, unfortunately, Israel's situation is more complicated and dangerous than the one of Egypt. Israel is virtually isolated and surrounded by dozens of Arab and Muslim countries that find very hard to accept its existence. The radical axis which includes Iran publicly declares that its objective is the elimination of Israel. Even in Egypt and Jordan the public opinion is strongly anti-Israeli: although we have peace agreements with these countries, it is a cold peace with almost no normalisation process and exchanges between the people.

Israel has faced this grave situation since its establishment in 1948 that as you can recall Egypt and Israel's other Arab neighbours tried to prevent brutally by force. Egypt was the first country to sign a peace agreement with Israel, but only after 30 years of wars and only after your late President Saadat realised that you cannot defeat Israel in the battlefield. Unfortunately, the supporters of Saadat's approach are a neglected minority and the overwhelming majority of the Arab world still hostile towards Israel and still hope for its destruction.

As a result, and in light of its unique strategic situation, Israel was forced to acquire a deterrence capability that will only be use as a threat in worst-case scenarios, and is aimed to squash any aspirations in the Arab world for the destruction of Israel.

As I said, Egypt is absolutely under no threat from Israel which never used its strategic capabilities to intimidate any of its neighbours or to gain political leverage. On the contrary: Israel is rarely even mentions these capabilities. Like you do not fill threatened from nuclear Britain and France which fought against Egypt in 1956 there is no reason to feel threatened from Israel which is also a responsible liberal democracy.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> We are in agreement that the ME should be without any nuclear weapons and I hope that we will live to see this desirable times. Egypt has done the right choice by avoiding developing nuclear weapons.
> 
> However, unfortunately, Israel's situation is more complicated and dangerous than the one of Egypt. Israel is virtually isolated and surrounded by dozens of Arab and Muslim countries that find very hard to accept its existence. The radical axis which includes Iran publicly declares that its objective is the elimination of Israel. Even in Egypt and Jordan the public opinion is strongly anti-Israeli: although we have peace agreements with these countries, it is a cold peace with almost no normalisation process and exchanges between the people.
> 
> Israel has faced this grave situation since its establishment in 1948 that as you can recall Egypt and Israel's other Arab neighbours tried to prevent brutally by force. Egypt was the first country to sign a peace agreement with Israel, but only after 30 years of wars and only after your late President Saadat realised that you cannot defeat Israel in the battlefield. Unfortunately, the supporters of Saadat's approach are a neglected minority and the overwhelming majority of the Arab world still hostile towards Israel and still hope for its destruction.
> 
> As a result, and in light of its unique strategic situation, Israel was forced to acquire a deterrence capability that will only be use as a threat in worst-case scenarios, and is aimed to squash any aspirations in the Arab world for the destruction of Israel.
> 
> As I said, Egypt is absolutely under no threat from Israel which never used its strategic capabilities to intimidate any of its neighbours or to gain political leverage. On the contrary: Israel is rarely even mentions these capabilities. Like you do not fill threatened from nuclear Britain and France which fought against Egypt in 1956 there is no reason to feel threatened from Israel which is also a responsible liberal democracy.



Israel and america's situation is always 'more dangerous' and their adversaries are living in the most secured environment(so what if they get invaded every now and then) and therefore, only israel and america have the right to possess WMDs, is it not want you want to say Mr. Hypocrite?


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Israel and america's situation is always 'more dangerous' and their adversaries are living in the most secured environment(so what if they get invaded every now and then) and therefore, only israel and america have the right to possess WMDs, is it not want you want to say Mr. Hypocrite?



Again you completely missed the point.

It is not a question of right and wrong - every country has the same right to develop nukes like any other country while the international common goal of all countries should be a world which is a nuclear weapons-free.

The issue of this thread is if Israel should be pressured by the international community to dismantle any allegedly nuclear weapons. As I detailed my opinion in many posts in this thread the answer is negative from the reasons below:

- Israel is not the only country which is considered as a nuclear weapons state: there are other eight countries.

- Israel should not be singled-out for global nuclear disarmament, no more than the US or France or the UK. Like these countries:
Israel is responsible democratic country which never threatened to use nukes or used its WMD as a leverage for political gains.

- Unfortunately, there are nuclear terror states and failed states and they are the ones which should be under international 
pressure either to dismantle or to stop their progress towards developing nuclear weapons. The first target should be Iran which explicitly is publicly dedicated to the elimination of Israel and use terror organisations as proxies to destabilise moderate regimes in the ME and to butcher Israeli citizens. The second country is North Korea which threaten to use nukes against its neighbours, Japan and South Korea, and has no problem to give nuclear assistance to rogue regimes like in Iran and Syria. And the Third country is Pakistan which is a failed state suffocated with terrorism and assisted rogue regimes to develop nuclear weapons.

Conclusion: Israel should not be discriminated regarding other responsible nuclear weapons states (the US, Britain, France and India) and be pressured to dismantle before them. Moreover, currently the international pressure should be on radical countries with nuclear programmes (Pakistan, North Korea and Iran) which constantly have jeopardised global stability.

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## boris

nirreich said:


> Again you completely missed the point.
> 
> It is not a question of right and wrong - every country has the same right to develop nukes like any other country while the international common goal of all countries should be a world which is a nuclear weapons-free.
> 
> The issue of this thread is if Israel should be pressured by the international community to dismantle any allegedly nuclear weapons. As I detailed my opinion in many posts in this thread the answer is negative from the reasons below:
> 
> - Israel is not the only country which is considered as a nuclear weapons state: there are other eight countries.
> 
> - Israel should not be singled-out for global nuclear disarmament, no more than the US or France or the UK. Like these countries:
> Israel is responsible democratic country which never threatened to use nukes or used its WMD as a leverage for political gains.
> 
> - Unfortunately, there are nuclear terror states and failed states and they are the ones which should be under international
> pressure either to dismantle or to stop their progress towards developing nuclear weapons. The first target should be Iran which explicitly is publicly dedicated to the elimination of Israel and use terror organisations as proxies to destabilise moderate regimes in the ME and to butcher Israeli citizens. The second country is North Korea which threaten to use nukes against its neighbours, Japan and South Korea, and has no problem to give nuclear assistance to rogue regimes like in Iran and Syria. And the Third country is Pakistan which is a failed state suffocated with terrorism and assisted rogue regimes to develop nuclear weapons.
> 
> Conclusion: Israel should not be discriminated regarding other responsible nuclear weapons states (the US, Britain, France and India) and be pressured to dismantle before them. *Moreover, currently the international pressure should be on radical countries with nuclear programmes (Pakistan, North Korea and Iran) which constantly have jeopardised global stability.*



very nice post,some people need to understand that israeli's are a very peaceful bunch and always do things that ultimately help everyone.


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## wasabi

The first pic says right, that's what's happening, for all the time
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/29147


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Again you completely missed the point.
> 
> It is not a question of right and wrong - every country has the same right to develop nukes like any other country while the international common goal of all countries should be a world which is a nuclear weapons-free.



Of course, for the sake of argument every country has the same right, but in reality it is only america and countries like israel which have the right to do things that are considered as crimes if others do. So, indeed it is a question of something grossly wrong and heinous.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Of course, for the sake of argument every country has the same right, but in reality it is only america and countries like israel which have the right to do things that are considered as crimes if others do. So, indeed it is a question of something grossly wrong and heinous.



World politics is not about justice, it is about maintaining stability, being here tomorrow morning.

And if for keeping this world from collapsing into the hands of dictatorial regimes, barbaric countries, and murderous governments we need several liberal democracies with nuclear weapons (such as the US, the UK, France) - so be it.

I prefer this "unjust" situation where people in democratic countries can live in peace rather making "justice" and let the most dreadful people to get nukes - like the Iranian regime, North Korea, and Pakistan.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> World politics is not about justice, it is about maintaining stability, being here tomorrow morning.
> 
> And if for keeping this world from collapsing into the hands of dictatorial regimes, barbaric countries, and murderous governments we need several liberal democracies with nuclear weapons (such as the US, the UK, France) - so be it.
> 
> I prefer this "unjust" situation where people in democratic countries can live in peace rather making "justice" and let the most dreadful people to get nukes - like the Iranian regime, North Korea, and Pakistan.



Stability, on whose term? A terror entity like israel will decide the terms and conditions and the world will watch, right? Keep dreaming but it's not going to last long! We know about your extreme distaste for a just world and so we do not expect anything just from a zionist like you!


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## nirreich

It lasted for more than 60 years and Israel only became stronger relatively to its Arab neighbours. 

You do not like the idea that democratic responsible countries are also nuclear weapons countries and you prefer that rogue and dictatorial regimes will develop these weapons in order to lead this world into disaster and bring suffering to billions of people (in addition to the misery of their own people). And you call it "justice".

Keep dreaming that the West and Israel would sit idle and let your terrible fantasies to materialised.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> It lasted for more than 60 years and Israel only became stronger relatively to its Arab neighbours.
> 
> You do not like the idea that democratic responsible countries are also nuclear weapons countries and you prefer that rogue and dictatorial regimes will develop these weapons in order to lead this world into disaster and bring suffering to billions of people (in addition to the misery of their own people). And you call it "justice".
> 
> Keep dreaming that the West and Israel would sit idle and let your terrible fantasies to materialised.



On what ground do you call israel responsible? Israel has been illegally occupying the land of the Palestinians, building wall inside their territory and dividing their territory and finally threatening all its neighbours with nukes if that is what you call responsible conduct. As for democracy is this why israel's big daddy has been raising and sheltering despots like Mubarak in ME?

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------




nirreich said:


> It lasted for more than 60 years and Israel only became stronger relatively to its Arab neighbours.
> 
> You do not like the idea that democratic responsible countries are also nuclear weapons countries and you prefer that rogue and dictatorial regimes will develop these weapons in order to lead this world into disaster and bring suffering to billions of people (in addition to the misery of their own people). And you call it "justice".
> 
> Keep dreaming that the West and Israel would sit idle and let your terrible fantasies to materialised.



On what ground do you call israel responsible? Israel has been illegally occupying the land of the Palestinians, building wall inside their territory and dividing their territory and *finally threatening all its neighbours with nukes* if that is what you call responsible conduct. As for democracy is this why israel's big daddy has been raising and sheltering despots like Mubarak in ME?


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> On what ground do you call israel responsible? Israel has been illegally occupying the land of the Palestinians, building wall inside their territory and dividing their territory and finally threatening all its neighbours with nukes if that is what you call responsible conduct. As for democracy is this why israel's big daddy has been raising and sheltering despots like Mubarak in ME?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> On what ground do you call israel responsible? Israel has been illegally occupying the land of the Palestinians, building wall inside their territory and dividing their territory and *finally threatening all its neighbours with nukes* if that is what you call responsible conduct. As for democracy is this why israel's big daddy has been raising and sheltering despots like Mubarak in ME?



Israel is a responsible democratic country. Contrary to what you argued, Israel:- 

- Never threatened even one of its Arab neighbours with nukes.

- Did not "illegally occupied the land of the Palestinians", but seized this territories in the War of 1967 from Egypt and Jordan after the latter used this lands to launch terror and offensive attacks against Israel. For more than three decades Israel has negotiated on a permanent solution to the Palestinian problem, including creating a Palestinian political entity/Statehood.

- Built the security fence in order to stop suicide bombing against its civilians, and thank god the fence is a success story - no more suicide attacks against unarmed women and children.

In your distorted and vile perception, this is the nature of a "terror" state: a country that defends its innocent people from murderous terrorists while extending its hand in peace to its most worst enemies. A country that while confronting an ocean of Arab and Muslim hostility remained to only democracy in the region and gives its Arab and Muslims citizens greater rights and better life than any of their brothers in the Muslim Ummah.

If in your lexicon Israel is "irresponsible", then how will you call your beloved despot regimes in Iran, Pakistan and North Korea that have nukes or eager to develop them? These rogues are the gravest danger to the stability and prosperity of the international community, and you support these scum and call it "justice" for them to posses nukes.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Israel is a responsible democratic country. Contrary to what you argued, Israel:-
> 
> - Never threatened even one of its Arab neighbours with nukes.
> 
> - Did not "illegally occupied the land of the Palestinians", but seized this territories in the War of 1967 from Egypt and Jordan after the latter used this lands to launch terror and offensive attacks against Israel. For more than three decades Israel has negotiated on a permanent solution to the Palestinian problem, including creating a Palestinian political entity/Statehood.
> 
> - Built the security fence in order to stop suicide bombing against its civilians, and thank god the fence is a success story - no more suicide attacks against unarmed women and children.
> 
> In your distorted and vile perception, this is the nature of a "terror" state.
> 
> If in your lexicon Israel is "irresponsible", then how will you call your beloved despot regimes in Iran, Pakistan and North Korea that have nukes or eager to develop them? These rogues are the gravest danger to the stability and prosperity of the international community, and you support these scum and call it "justice" for them to posses nukes.



Again resorting to lies, of course, seizing foreign territory is illegal. BTW we're not discussing Pakistan's or North korea's nukes here, we're discussing the nukes of a terrorist entity like israel. WMDs in the hands of a terrorist entity is universally irresponsible, it doesn't matter what the warmongers in Washington or Tel Aviv say.


----------



## Andross

Israel is for jews and the nukes are their to protect them from the haters 


God bless Israel


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Again resorting to lies, of course, seizing foreign territory is illegal. BTW we're not discussing Pakistan's or North korea's nukes here, we're discussing the nukes of a terrorist entity like israel. WMDs in the hands of a terrorist entity is universally irresponsible, it doesn't matter what the warmongers in Washington or Tel Aviv say.



Seizing a territory during a military conflict is not illegal and that is exactly Israel did - captured a territory from its foes, Egypt and Jordan, which was used for launching terror and hostile acts against Israel.

Although it is not convenient for you, We are indeed discussing nuclear rogue regimes in order to show how ridiculous is your claim that Israel is a "terror" state. But in your view, a dictatorial, terror regime like Iran which butcher its own people allowed to develop nukes is "justice". You support the worst warmongers and terrorists of our time.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Seizing a territory during a military conflict is not illegal and that is exactly Israel did - captured a territory from its foes, Egypt and Jordan, which was used for launching terror and hostile acts against Israel.
> 
> Although it is not convenient for you, We are indeed discussing nuclear rogue regimes in order to show how ridiculous is your claim that Israel is a "terror" state. But in your view, a dictatorial, terror regime like Iran which butcher its own people allowed to develop nukes is "justice". You support the worst warmongers and terrorists of our time.



We're discussing *the nukes of a rogue state called israel*. My claim is supported by at least 165 countries. Do yo know how many countries support your zionist claim?


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> We're discussing *the nukes of a rogue state called israel*. My claim is supported by at least 165 countries. Do yo know how many countries support your zionist claim?



You are repeating points that I already refuted as irrelevant - It is not a question of majority and minority, your 100 and something countries that allegedly support your lies most of them are just a bunch of failed states like Bangladesh. I do not care what failed countries think.

Read the title of this thread: "Time for IAEA to Deal with Israeli Nukes?" The answer is negative because as I showed Israel is hardly a rogue state and you have real rogue regimes that are trying to develop nukes - the international community and IAEA should deal with them immediately and not let them to inflict their (and your) "justice" on peaceful and prosperous nations.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> You are repeating points that I already refuted as irrelevant - It is not a question of majority and minority, your 100 and something countries that allegedly support your lies most of them are just a bunch of failed states like Bangladesh. I do not care what failed countries think.
> 
> Read the title of this thread: "Time for IAEA to Deal with Israeli Nukes?" The answer is negative because as I showed Israel is hardly a rogue state and you have real rogue regimes that are trying to develop nukes - the international community and IAEA should deal with them immediately and not let them to inflict their (and your) "justice" on peaceful and prosperous nations.



What most people say is a crime is a crime. What you or your zionist friends say is not fact but propaganda.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> What most people say is a crime is a crime. What you or your zionist friends say is not fact but propaganda.



No, it is not. Most people and most countries of the third world are either ignorant, or misperceived, or envy or hate countries which are prosperous and advanced. 

As usuall, when you do not have good answers you are running away to trolling.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> No, it is not. Most people and most countries of the third world are either ignorant, or misperceived, or envy or hate countries which are prosperous and advanced.
> 
> As usuall, when you do not have good answers you are running away to trolling.



Yes, we know that nazis and zionists consider third world countries as ignorant and barbaric but who cares what the nizis or the zionists believe! Following is a report on the israeli crimes against humanity:

The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.

Those violations include:

&#8226;
Collective punishment:

The entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.

&#8226;
Targeting civilians:

The airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.

&#8226;


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Yes, we know that nazis and zionists consider third world countries as ignorant and barbaric but who cares what the nizis or the zionists believe! Following is a report on the israeli crimes against humanity:
> 
> The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.
> 
> Those violations include:
> 
> &#8226;
> Collective punishment:
> 
> The entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.
> 
> &#8226;
> Targeting civilians:
> 
> The airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.
> 
> &#8226;



Complete rubbish.

These are not few militants. If you have not noticed, Gaza is under the control of Hamas which is a terrorist organisation that butchered innocent civilians in Israel and fire rockets on Israeli cities and villages. Why should Israel open its border with this barbaric anti-Semite entity? We are in a state of war with it - did your beloved Iran maintained open borders with Iraq during its war with it?

Your terrorists of Hamas intentionally fire rockets from populated areas and hide weaponry under or inside civilian neighbourhoods and facilities like schools and hospitals. Hamas wants that as many as its civilians will be hurt, so anti-Semites like yourself can use it as propaganda against Israel. 

You want that Israel will suffer terror attacks and rockets on its innocent civilians and do nothing to stop it - regrettably civilians are being hurt in Gaza because of Hamas inhuman behaviour. If you are so concerned about those casualties (and not of course for the Israeli innocent casualties), go and tell Hamas to renounce terrorism and its anti-Semitism. 

You lost again - Israel is a responsible democratic country


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Complete rubbish.
> 
> These are not few militants. If you have not noticed, Gaza is under the control of Hamas which is a terrorist organisation that butchered innocent civilians in Israel and fire rockets on Israeli cities and villages. Why should Israel open its border with this barbaric anti-Semite entity? We are in a state of war with it - did your beloved Iran maintained open borders with Iraq during its war with it?
> 
> Your terrorists of Hamas intentionally fire rockets from populated areas and hide weaponry under or inside civilian neighbourhoods and facilities like schools and hospitals. Hamas wants that as many as its civilians will be hurt, so anti-Semites like yourself can use it as propaganda against Israel.
> 
> You want that Israel will suffer terror attacks and rockets on its innocent civilians and do nothing to stop it - regrettably civilians are being hurt in Gaza because of Hamas inhuman behaviour. If you are so concerned about those casualties (and not of course for the Israeli innocent casualties), go and tell Hamas to renounce terrorism and its anti-Semitism.
> 
> You lost again - Israel is a responsible democratic country



One zionist says that I've lost and to the rest of the world it means I've won. Like america your credibility is below zero, so your nazi crap means nothing. *Israel is the most irresponsible state* in the world and* its nukes* along with those belonging to the US pose the greatest threat to mankind.


----------



## 500

*nirreich* , why u argue with him? This guy lives in constant fear from Israeli nukes. He shivers 24 h a day 7 days a week. I guess he does not go out from his basement. I feel sorry for him.


----------



## secularbuster

500 said:


> *nirreich* , why u argue with him? This guy lives in constant fear from Israeli nukes. He shivers 24 h a day 7 days a week. I guess he does not go out from his basement. I feel sorry for him.



You're right, we're *terrorised by the israeli nukes!* Now, that's nuclear terrorism!


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> One zionist says that I've lost and to the rest of the world it means I've won. Like america your credibility is below zero, so your nazi crap means nothing. *Israel is the most irresponsible state* in the world and* its nukes* along with those belonging to the US pose the greatest threat to mankind.



Another example of trolling.


----------



## nirreich

500 said:


> *nirreich* , why u argue with him? This guy lives in constant fear from Israeli nukes. He shivers 24 h a day 7 days a week. I guess he does not go out from his basement. I feel sorry for him.



Yes, I know you are right, but in a bizarre way I enjoy replying to his stupidity. Nobody is perfect...


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Another example of trolling.



You're the greatest troll on this forum whose ambition is to hide *the israeli nuclear threat*.
*
Israel's Nuclear Missile Threat against Iran*

by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya



&#8220;What troubles me is that perhaps the Americans will attack Iran. (&#8230 That would thrust us [Israel] into a war and the home front [in opposition to Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, and Syria] is not ready [yet].&#8221;

Major-General Ze&#8217;evi-Farkash, former Chief of Israel Military Intelligence (March 4, 2007)

In the former Yugoslavia, militarily the NATO campaign was a failure in defeating the Yugoslav military. It was because of the harsh targeting of civilian infrastructure and the slaughter of civilians that Yugoslavia decided to surrender.

The Iranians have learned a great deal from watching the indiscriminate bombardment of Belgrade and Baghdad. The Yugoslavs and the Iraqis did not posses air power or strong air defences, but the Iranians have been working precisely on this matter through the development of their domestic missile industry. It is Tehran&#8217;s missile technology, which distinguishes Iran from Yugoslavia and Iraq.

Syria: A Strategic Objective for Israel

It was the Iranian missile arsenal, along with the fact that the Israelis did not penetrate far enough into Lebanese territory, which prevented the Israelis from expanding their July 2006 war on Lebanon into Syria.

Syria was one of the three strategic objectives for the Israelis and the international mainstream media was preparing the public for an outbreak of war between Israel and Syria. [1] The Syrian government was also openly bracing itself for war. [2] Israel wanted to invade Damascus through the vulnerable Lebanese-Syrian border instead of the heavily fortified Israeli-Syrian frontier. However, the Israelis underestimated the strength of the Lebanese Resistance and were not prepared to confront Iran and the Iranian missile arsenal during July of 2006.

In March 2007, thousands of U.S. and Israeli troops amassed in the Negev Desert of Israel in their fourth joint exercise, code-named &#8220;Juniper Cobra.&#8221; This exercise was designed to test U.S. and Israeli air defence systems.[3]

The exercise was portrayed as routine, but the purpose of the Israeli air defence system was originally created in the 1990s on the assumption of an eventual military confrontation with Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

These 2007 Israeli-U.S. war games were in response to a series of Iranian military exercises and missile tests conducted since 2006. Iranian missile and rocket technology has developed to a level where Iran has successfully launched its first space rocket into orbit and is preparing its own satellite launches. [4]

The Israeli-U.S. tests and war games seem to be geared towards consolidating Israeli air defences in relaiton to Iranian missile capabilities, prior to a possible and long anticipated showdown with Iran and Syria.

By the same token, Israel is also preparing for war with Syria, which has been upgrading and advancing its missile arsenal and technology with the help of both Iran and Russia.

Israel&#8217;s Nuclear Missile Test: Veiled Nuclear Threat against Iran?

Is Iran threatening Israel or is it the other way around?

The Israeli government has said that all options at Israel&#8217;s disposal are legitimate in crippling Iran. According to Reuters, Israel stated on January 17 that a missile tested by Tel Aviv was &#8220;capable of carrying an &#8216;unconventional payload&#8217; &#8212; an apparent reference to the nuclear warheads Israel is assumed to possess, though it has never publicly confirmed their existence.&#8221; [5]

Israel Radio (which is the object of censorship regarding military issues), claims that according to unidentified foreign sources, Israel was developing its Jericho III long-range surface-to-surface missile and that Jericho III has a range which can reach Iranian territory. [6] Are these statements intended to intimidate Tehran and its regional allies in the Middle East?

According to another Reuters report, &#8220;Israel is believed to have atomic arms and foreign analysts have said for many years that its Jericho I and Jericho II missiles can carry nuclear warheads.&#8221; [7] Without giving its sources the same report also stated, &#8220;Amateur photos posted on Israeli news Web sites showed a white plume in the sky above central Israel.&#8221; [8] This appears to be a reference to some form of a nuclear weapons test.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> You're the greatest troll on this forum whose ambition is to hide *the israeli nuclear threat*.
> *
> Israel's Nuclear Missile Threat against Iran*
> 
> by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;What troubles me is that perhaps the Americans will attack Iran. (&#8230 That would thrust us [Israel] into a war and the home front [in opposition to Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, and Syria] is not ready [yet].&#8221;
> 
> Major-General Ze&#8217;evi-Farkash, former Chief of Israel Military Intelligence (March 4, 2007)
> 
> In the former Yugoslavia, militarily the NATO campaign was a failure in defeating the Yugoslav military. It was because of the harsh targeting of civilian infrastructure and the slaughter of civilians that Yugoslavia decided to surrender.
> 
> The Iranians have learned a great deal from watching the indiscriminate bombardment of Belgrade and Baghdad. The Yugoslavs and the Iraqis did not posses air power or strong air defences, but the Iranians have been working precisely on this matter through the development of their domestic missile industry. It is Tehran&#8217;s missile technology, which distinguishes Iran from Yugoslavia and Iraq.
> 
> Syria: A Strategic Objective for Israel
> 
> It was the Iranian missile arsenal, along with the fact that the Israelis did not penetrate far enough into Lebanese territory, which prevented the Israelis from expanding their July 2006 war on Lebanon into Syria.
> 
> Syria was one of the three strategic objectives for the Israelis and the international mainstream media was preparing the public for an outbreak of war between Israel and Syria. [1] The Syrian government was also openly bracing itself for war. [2] Israel wanted to invade Damascus through the vulnerable Lebanese-Syrian border instead of the heavily fortified Israeli-Syrian frontier. However, the Israelis underestimated the strength of the Lebanese Resistance and were not prepared to confront Iran and the Iranian missile arsenal during July of 2006.
> 
> In March 2007, thousands of U.S. and Israeli troops amassed in the Negev Desert of Israel in their fourth joint exercise, code-named &#8220;Juniper Cobra.&#8221; This exercise was designed to test U.S. and Israeli air defence systems.[3]
> 
> The exercise was portrayed as routine, but the purpose of the Israeli air defence system was originally created in the 1990s on the assumption of an eventual military confrontation with Syria, Iraq, and Iran.
> 
> These 2007 Israeli-U.S. war games were in response to a series of Iranian military exercises and missile tests conducted since 2006. Iranian missile and rocket technology has developed to a level where Iran has successfully launched its first space rocket into orbit and is preparing its own satellite launches. [4]
> 
> The Israeli-U.S. tests and war games seem to be geared towards consolidating Israeli air defences in relaiton to Iranian missile capabilities, prior to a possible and long anticipated showdown with Iran and Syria.
> 
> By the same token, Israel is also preparing for war with Syria, which has been upgrading and advancing its missile arsenal and technology with the help of both Iran and Russia.
> 
> Israel&#8217;s Nuclear Missile Test: Veiled Nuclear Threat against Iran?
> 
> Is Iran threatening Israel or is it the other way around?
> 
> The Israeli government has said that all options at Israel&#8217;s disposal are legitimate in crippling Iran. According to Reuters, Israel stated on January 17 that a missile tested by Tel Aviv was &#8220;capable of carrying an &#8216;unconventional payload&#8217; &#8212; an apparent reference to the nuclear warheads Israel is assumed to possess, though it has never publicly confirmed their existence.&#8221; [5]
> 
> Israel Radio (which is the object of censorship regarding military issues), claims that according to unidentified foreign sources, Israel was developing its Jericho III long-range surface-to-surface missile and that Jericho III has a range which can reach Iranian territory. [6] Are these statements intended to intimidate Tehran and its regional allies in the Middle East?
> 
> According to another Reuters report, &#8220;Israel is believed to have atomic arms and foreign analysts have said for many years that its Jericho I and Jericho II missiles can carry nuclear warheads.&#8221; [7] Without giving its sources the same report also stated, &#8220;Amateur photos posted on Israeli news Web sites showed a white plume in the sky above central Israel.&#8221; [8] This appears to be a reference to some form of a nuclear weapons test.



Well done. You proved again that you are not just an ordinary troll, but a troll that masters the art of cut-and-paste. 

although, as usual, your post is complete rubbish.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Well done. You proved again that you are not just an ordinary troll, but a troll that masters the art of cut-and-paste.
> 
> although, as usual, your post is complete rubbish.


*
When you threaten your neighbours with nukes* you have no right to point fingers at others!


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *
> When you threaten your neighbours with nukes* you have no right to point fingers at others!



Trolling, nothing more.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Trolling, nothing more.



When zionists cannot face the truth they cry 'trolling, trolling'.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> When zionists cannot face the truth they cry 'trolling, trolling'.



When an anti-Semite cannot face the music, he runs away to trolling.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> When an anti-Semite cannot face the music, he runs away to trolling.



These zionists have always been pathetic liars. Anyway, the topic is the threat emanating from the israeli nukes, so let's eradicate the threat for the sake of peace.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> These zionists have always been pathetic liars. Anyway, the topic is the threat emanating from the israeli nukes, so let's eradicate the threat for the sake of peace.



Trolling, trolling and - trolling.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Trolling, trolling and - trolling.



*The WMDs in the hands of israel, the father and mother of state terrorism, is the greatest threat to world peace.*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *The WMDs in the hands of israel, the father and mother of state terrorism, is the greatest threat to world peace.*



Just trolling.

I can continue to do it all day.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Just trolling.
> 
> I can continue to do it all day.



*Israel's Crimes against Palestinians: War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide*

by Francis Boyle Professor of International Law

At the Brussels' Palace of Justice on March 6, 2002, Souad Srour El Meri, one of 28 Palestinians filing war crimes charges against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the 1982 massacre of Sabra-Shatila, shows a photo of Arab children killed by Sharon's proxies. A Brussels appeals' court is considering putting Sharon on trial for war crimes he perpetrated in Lebanon.

The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation

Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.

The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.

There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.

So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian people are defending themselves and their land and their homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.

The U.N. Human Rights Commission

Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."

In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission:"Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."

Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians

We all have a general idea of what a war crime is, so I am not going to elaborate upon that term here. But there are different degrees of heinousness for war crimes. In particular are the more serious war crimes denominated "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Since the start of the Al Aqsa Intifada, the world has seen those inflicted every day by Israel against the Palestinian People living in occupied Palestine: e.g., willful killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army and Israel's illegal paramilitary settlers. These Israeli "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention mandate universal prosecution for their perpetrators, whether military or civilian, as well as prosecution for their commanders, whether military or civilian, including Israel's political leaders.

Israel's Crimes Against Humanity

I want to focus for a moment on Israel's "crime against humanity" against the Palestinian People -- as determined by the U.N. Human Rights Commission itself, set up pursuant to the requirements of the United Nations Charter. What is a "crime against humanity"? This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People.

The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from. And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews.

The Precursor to Genocide

Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.

In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide. And I submit that if something is not done quite soon by the American people and the International Community to stop Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity (and) against the Palestinian people, it could very well degenerate into genocide, if Israel is not there already. And in this regard, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is what international lawyers call a genocidaire--one who has already committed genocide in the past.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Israel's Crimes against Palestinians: War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide*
> 
> by Francis Boyle Professor of International Law
> 
> At the Brussels' Palace of Justice on March 6, 2002, Souad Srour El Meri, one of 28 Palestinians filing war crimes charges against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the 1982 massacre of Sabra-Shatila, shows a photo of Arab children killed by Sharon's proxies. A Brussels appeals' court is considering putting Sharon on trial for war crimes he perpetrated in Lebanon.
> 
> The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation
> 
> Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
> 
> The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
> 
> There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
> 
> So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian people are defending themselves and their land and their homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.
> 
> The U.N. Human Rights Commission
> 
> Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."
> 
> In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission:"Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."
> 
> Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians
> 
> We all have a general idea of what a war crime is, so I am not going to elaborate upon that term here. But there are different degrees of heinousness for war crimes. In particular are the more serious war crimes denominated "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Since the start of the Al Aqsa Intifada, the world has seen those inflicted every day by Israel against the Palestinian People living in occupied Palestine: e.g., willful killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army and Israel's illegal paramilitary settlers. These Israeli "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention mandate universal prosecution for their perpetrators, whether military or civilian, as well as prosecution for their commanders, whether military or civilian, including Israel's political leaders.
> 
> Israel's Crimes Against Humanity
> 
> I want to focus for a moment on Israel's "crime against humanity" against the Palestinian People -- as determined by the U.N. Human Rights Commission itself, set up pursuant to the requirements of the United Nations Charter. What is a "crime against humanity"? This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People.
> 
> The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from. And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews.
> 
> The Precursor to Genocide
> 
> Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.
> 
> In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide. And I submit that if something is not done quite soon by the American people and the International Community to stop Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity (and) against the Palestinian people, it could very well degenerate into genocide, if Israel is not there already. And in this regard, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is what international lawyers call a genocidaire--one who has already committed genocide in the past.



Figments of your imagination, and you are still trolling.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Figments of your imagination, and you are still trolling.











Israeli crimes against humanity: Gruesome images of charred and mutilated bodies following Israeli air strikes



While these gruesome images have been released by acredited news agencies including Reuters, Agence France Press and the Associated Press, they are casually dismissed, they are not considered as "reliable evidence" of war crimes. 

There is, in this regard, a deliberate media coverup of Israeli sponsored crimes and atrocities. Civilian casualties continue to be presented in media reports as "collateral damage". 

Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous acuracy.

The atrocities in these pictures are beyond description. Israel has being using, quite deliberately, deadly "weapons of mass destruction" in the real sense of the word against Lebanese civilians.

Israel is involved in crimes against humanity and the so-called international community unreservedly supports Israel's right to "self defense". 

Moreover, in providing a green light to Israel to continue its criminal bombings for another week, the Bush adminstration is directly responsible for these atrocities.

No compassion on the part of Western leaders. "War is good for business". The killings are for profit and political gain. 

The entire Western meda is silent, focussing ad nauseam on the alleged terrorist actions of Hizbollah, its "links to Iran and Syria", the rescue of Western expatriates, etc. But not a word on the destruction of an entire nation. What Israel is doing, in a very concrete sense, is "wiping Lebanon off the face of the map", to use a familiar expression. 

By destroying its civilian infrastructure and killing its people, Israel "questions Lebanon's right to exist" as a sovereign nation.

Is this what is called "the clash of civilisations"?

We are dealing with the criminalisation of the Western media. If atrocities of this nature are not reported or acknowledged, what are the implications? The end of "civilised society"?

There can be no double standards. If G-8 leaders and the UN Secretary General do not speak out explicitly, not only in condemning but in taking concrete actions against Israel, they too are collectively responsible for crimes against humanity.

It is time for the real war criminals, the real terrorists to be prosecuted. Extensive sanctions should be adopted against the Israeli government. 

Political leaders and diplomats who endorse the Israeli sponsored killings must understand that they too can be prosecuted within their respective jurisdictions. 



Michel Chossudovsky, Global Research, 21 July 2006 


Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?

sidon2.jpg

Israeli aggression on Lebanon
July 2006

Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?



Beirut
July 21st, 2006

I left the office early last night ; at midnight.

There was only one devastating picture yesterday : that of two people who were killed in air strikes on Akkar,(the poorer area) in the north, late Wednesday night.

Both corps were black, both were dismembered , both were "weird". I don't think it matters anymore to try to prove that Israel is using unconventional , forbidden weapons .. that would only prove that it should have used "allowed" weapons. Who cares, people are dying anyway. And whatever weapons are being used , the pollution they're creating will kill the survivors from cancer later.

The rest of the pictures were less devastating, conventional : demolished houses, wiped out villages and towns, more refugees , some of them starving, lovely babes on board of US marines ships and colored people from poor countries lining up in front of embassies hoping they will get them out of this hell.

The really devastating pictures will came later , much later, some day when all this will stop maybe we'll be able to visit the ruins of whole villages. But even then it might be too late : how long does it take corps buried under rubbles to disintegrate and vanish ?

Anyway , so I left the office early and went home with my friend who's staying with us because his house is in the southern suburb of Beirut. I was a bit worried because my brother in law , Khalil's brother, was there too and I was wondering if I'd be able to manage space for everybody to sleep comfortably.

Raed, my brother in law, and his eight-month pregnant wife , had left Jebshit in the south yesterday morning. They reached Beirut by 5:00 pm.

They had crossed a bridge in Habbouche who'd been targeted only once . It was destroyed but cars were still able to find a way through. Half an hour after Raed had crossed the bridge, it was bombed again and completely demolished this time (sounds like an Indian movie, right?). Of course Raed knew nothing about that , he trying to make out to Saida, then up to Baakline in the Shouf then way down back to Beirut.

When I got home , I asked if they had dinner. I was a bit ashamed because my fridge is empty. I hadn't had time lately to buy grocery and I'm "heavily" relying on milk to feed Kinda, my daughter. "Dinner ?" Raed asked , "we had 9 shawarma sandwiches, Rana (his wife) and I. Today was the first time we eat in 3 days".

He tells stories about Jebshit. Sad ones. No electricity , no water, no roads, no food, no newspapers. Some villages even run out of batteries, so they can't even listen to the news on the radio. Funny, isn't it, that in Beirut we know more about what's going on than the people concerned. Raed only knew they blew the Habbouche bridge when he listened to the news after he reached Beirut.

I have to admit to all of you that I have very mixed, weird, sick feelings about all this.

The first three or four days were very strange. I was in Beirut , sitting in an air conditioned office, watching the devastation of the South and the southern suburb. It felt like when you watch news and pictures from Palestine and Iraq. You feel frustrated and concerned, but you know there's not much you can do for them, for mere geographical reasons, at least that's the excuse one uses to comfort one's self. But "this" was happening a few kilometers away and I'd still be sitting here watching.

The other weird feeling was related to the first one: I felt that I was paying my dues. The guilt feeling I've always had toward Palestine, and later towards Iraq, has diminished a little bit. I felt like hugging Palestine and Iraq and screaming to them "We're with you, like you: left alone, suffering and part of your cause, a great one."

Sometimes I just flip and cry. Cry because I'm so helpless and angry. And most of the time I turn on my "automatic engine on". I wake up at six , come to the office, report hideous stories , feel nothing about them , do my job : double check , choose "fantastic" headlines , pick up the "best" pictures, try to be as professional as one can be. I do that for 12 to 14 hours. I'd then go home, pick up my daughter from my mother's house , and go to bed at one. The Israelis love to start their raids at ten past one, sometimes at five past one. That's when I'm in bed. Every night, when they start, I rush out to the balcony to see where the smoke comes from. I live on the twelfth floor. Every night , when I go out , I see the moon , my lovely moon , shyly hiding behind the clouds caused by the fires that are surrounding my Beirut.

This morning , I stayed home till 12:00. I played with Kinda. My poor little baby. She doesn't understand what's going on. She keeps asking about her cousins. She looks at their pictures and keeps repeating their names; as if it was an exercise not to forget them. I tell her they're in the mountains, and that we can't go there. When they call us, she refuses to talk to them. She thinks they abounded her.

The first time she heard the bombing, she rushed to my arms asking me if this was fireworks . I said " no , this is boum boum , ha ha ha " and started laughing. So now, every time she hears the bombing she starts singing "boum boum " and she laughs.

I left her at noon. She was sleepy, and wouldn't go to bed. It took a few minutes to realize the reason : she wanted to fall asleep in my arms. Before July the 12th, I would not move at her bed time. I'd put her on my lap , sing to her until she sleeps. For 10 days now, she's been sleeping in the stroller at my mother's house: only to guaranty that I will come pick her up when I finish working.

Two last notes: I feel ashamed talking about my daughter while other people's kids were either killed or lack of food and shelter. But I feel so guilty towards her.

Second : to all the Israelis who have been sending their comments on what I write , I say this : I agree with you , we are savages , blood lovers, we don't have feelings, and we actually enjoy looking at the pictures of victims. Actually , each time we see one , we party and dance. And in my writings, I'm only pretending to have feelings , and being pathetically sentimental only to bluff. Here, I'm admitting it. And to all my friends in the west : don't believe anything I say , cause I'm only viciously using you and trying to turn you into sympathizers of fundamental terrorism.

Hanady



Beirut
July 19, 2006

The attached pictures are hideously gruesome, but you have to look at them . Help me find out what kind of weapons cause this kind of dismemberment and mutation.

What kind of weapons cause this kind of damage? Do you know? Could you find out?

None of this is confirmed, or could be here and now. However, there are growing doubts that Israel might be using internationally forbidden weapons in its current aggression against Lebanon. News from "Southern Medical Center", a hospital in Saida( in South Lebanon) are not good. Dr. Bashir Sham, member of "French Association of Cardiovascular Surgeons", explains that the way the corps look when they reach the hospital, especially those of the air strikes in Doueir and Rmayleih, is very abnormal." One might think they were burnt , but their colour is dark , they're inflated, and they have a terrible smell" All this , and the hair is not burnt nor do the bodies bleed.

Eight of the victims of an air strike on Rmayleih bridge, near Saida, on the 15th of July, were transferred to Sham's hospital.

Sham says that only chemical poisonous substances "lead to instant death without bleeding".
And what indicates the power of these substances, is the high and unusual of number of dead victimes, compared to the number of injuries.

Sham thinks that whatever "abnormal " substance causing these features might penetrate through the skin, or another explanation would be that the missiles contained toxic gas that stopped the proper functioning of the nervous system, and led to blood clotting.

These toxic materials cause immediate death, within two to thirty minutes, according to Sham, who admits that these doubts can't be proven, not even by an autopsy.

The director of the same medical center, Ali Mansour, says that due to the strong smell of the corps, he couldn't breath properly for at least 12 hours after the corps were handled.

He explains that the center received eight bodies from Rmeileh last Monday, and none of them was bleeding.

Mansour tells us the hospital wrote to both the commissioner of the European Union for Foreign Affaires Javier Solana, and the United Nations Secretary general Kofi Anan. He said that dr Sham will communicate his doubts to the Doctors Order in Lebanon.

CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE!

Hanady



Beirut





A body killed by a burning object lies in a Beirut suburb July 17- Reuters




A Lebanese firefighter extinguishes the charred body of a Lebanese truck driver who was killed when Israeli planes attacked the port in Beirut July 17 - AP




A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes, July 17 - Reuters




A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes




A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes-2.





Lebanese firefighters try to extinguish the fire while the dismembered and burnt corpses of two Lebanese civilians killed in an Israeli air raid lie on the ground at the port in Beirut




Lebanese men remove a recovered body of a man from the back of a vehicle in Beirut July 17- Reuters.jpg





Lebanese Red Cross members remove the dismembered and burnt corpses of two Lebanese civilians killed in an Israeli air raid at the port in Beirut 17 July




Lebanese Red Cross members remove the dismembered and burnt corpses of two Lebanese civilians killed in an Israeli air raid at the port in Beirut.



look at his right eye - Lebanese citizens gather around a man who was killed by shrapnel from an explosion in Kfarshima, near Beirut, Lebanon, Monday, July 17 -AP




look at the foot - beirut prot july 17 - Reuters



Sidon





A Lebanese medic carries the body of a young girl, in a refrigerated truck used as a makeshift morgue, in the port city of Sidon, Lebanon, Monday, July 17 - AP




A Medic inspects burned bodies of Lebanese civilians who were attacked as they passed by a bridge that was targeted in north Saida, southern Lebanon, July 17 - Reuters


Tyr





A badly injured Lebanese civilian is seen at a hospital following Israeli air strikes on a house in the southern city of Tyre, 17 July - AFP




A Lebanese rescue worker gathers the remains of a woman from the rubble of residential buildings hit by the Israeli bombardement in the southern Lebanese city of Tyre, 18 July - AFP




An 18-month-old Lebanese child lies dead 17 July on a hospital bed in Saida eight hours after being injured yesterday in an Israeli air attack in Tyre - AFP




Lebanese man that was injured and burned by Israeli attacks on Tyre, lies in a hospital in south Lebanon July 15 - Reuters




The corpse of a dead man lies admist the rubble from devastating Israeli air strikes in Tyre, south Lebanon, 16 July - AFP




The corpse of a Lebanese civilian lies amidst the rubble following a devastating Israeli air strike in Tyre, south Lebanon, 16 July






Rmayleh




A civil defense member transports the corpse of a Lebanese civilian killed in an Israeli air raid that targeted the Rmeyleh bridge near Saida 17 July afp.




A Lebanese medic carries the body of a young girl, in a refrigerated truck used as a makeshift morgue, as another body lies covered, in the port city of Sidon, Lebanon, Monday, July 17




Civil defence rescuers carry the body of a woman away from a civilian car that was struck by an Israeli warplane missile- rmayleih juy 17 - AP




Drivers carry away Lebanese Ali Wahid after he was seriously wounded in his car, while he was driving past a bridge when was struck by an Israeli warplane missile- rmayleh july 17 ap.




Lebanese Red Cross members cover the burnt corpse of a Lebanese civilian killed in an Israeli air raid that targeted the Rmeyleh bridge in Saida 17 July AFP.




look at his face - A 7-year-old Lebanese boy fights for his life on a hospital bed in Saida 17 July 2006 after being injured in an Israeli air raid - AFP




Marwahin





A badly charred and mutilated body lies on the ground after an Israeli missile hit a van carrying passengers on a road in southern Lebanon, July 15, - Reuters




A body of a man from the southern village of Marwahin, who was killed along with 17 others near the village of Shamaa




A United Nations medic holds a body that was badly charred and destroyed after an Israeli missile hit a van carrying passengers on a road in southern Lebanon, July 15 - Reuters.




KILLED ON THE SAME ROAD IN THE SOUTH JULY 15 - REUTERS




Lebanese civil defence member carries the corpse of a young girl from the southern village of Marwahin




MARWA Marwa Abdallah, who survived Saturday's attack on a van in Tyre where twenty people where killed IN HOSPITAL JULY 16 - REUTERS.




MARWAHIN (SOUTH ) JULY 15 - AFP




MARWAHIN (SOUTH ) JULY 15 - REUTERS





Zebdine





A Lebanese Red Cross staff collects human remains following an Israeli air raid on Zebdine village (south )JULY 16 AFP




Teir Harfa





TEIR HAFRA 1 (SOUTH) JULY 15 - AP




TEIR HAFRA 2 SOUTH) JULY 15 - AP




TEIR HAFRA 3(SOUTH) JULY 15 - AP




TEIR HAFRA 4 (SOUTH) JULY 15 - AP




TEIR HAFRA 5 (SOUTH ) JULY 15 - AP




TEIR HAFRA 6 (SOUTH ) JULY 15 AP



Bekaa





look at the eye- Issam Mostafa, a 3-year-old Lebanese boy, rests at a hospital in Shtora in the Bekaa valley 17 July afp


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> Israeli crimes against humanity: Gruesome images of charred and mutilated bodies following Israeli air strikes
> 
> 
> 
> While these gruesome images have been released by acredited news agencies including Reuters, Agence France Press and the Associated Press, they are casually dismissed, they are not considered as "reliable evidence" of war crimes.
> 
> There is, in this regard, a deliberate media coverup of Israeli sponsored crimes and atrocities. Civilian casualties continue to be presented in media reports as "collateral damage".
> 
> Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous acuracy.
> 
> The atrocities in these pictures are beyond description. Israel has being using, quite deliberately, deadly "weapons of mass destruction" in the real sense of the word against Lebanese civilians.
> 
> Israel is involved in crimes against humanity and the so-called international community unreservedly supports Israel's right to "self defense".
> 
> Moreover, in providing a green light to Israel to continue its criminal bombings for another week, the Bush adminstration is directly responsible for these atrocities.
> 
> No compassion on the part of Western leaders. "War is good for business". The killings are for profit and political gain.
> 
> The entire Western meda is silent, focussing ad nauseam on the alleged terrorist actions of Hizbollah, its "links to Iran and Syria", the rescue of Western expatriates, etc. But not a word on the destruction of an entire nation. What Israel is doing, in a very concrete sense, is "wiping Lebanon off the face of the map", to use a familiar expression.
> 
> By destroying its civilian infrastructure and killing its people, Israel "questions Lebanon's right to exist" as a sovereign nation.
> 
> Is this what is called "the clash of civilisations"?
> 
> We are dealing with the criminalisation of the Western media. If atrocities of this nature are not reported or acknowledged, what are the implications? The end of "civilised society"?
> 
> There can be no double standards. If G-8 leaders and the UN Secretary General do not speak out explicitly, not only in condemning but in taking concrete actions against Israel, they too are collectively responsible for crimes against humanity.
> 
> It is time for the real war criminals, the real terrorists to be prosecuted. Extensive sanctions should be adopted against the Israeli government.
> 
> Political leaders and diplomats who endorse the Israeli sponsored killings must understand that they too can be prosecuted within their respective jurisdictions.
> 
> 
> 
> Michel Chossudovsky, Global Research, 21 July 2006
> 
> 
> Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?
> 
> sidon2.jpg
> 
> Israeli aggression on Lebanon
> July 2006
> 
> Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?
> 
> 
> 
> Beirut
> July 21st, 2006
> 
> I left the office early last night ; at midnight.
> 
> There was only one devastating picture yesterday : that of two people who were killed in air strikes on Akkar,(the poorer area) in the north, late Wednesday night.
> 
> Both corps were black, both were dismembered , both were "weird". I don't think it matters anymore to try to prove that Israel is using unconventional , forbidden weapons .. that would only prove that it should have used "allowed" weapons. Who cares, people are dying anyway. And whatever weapons are being used , the pollution they're creating will kill the survivors from cancer later.
> 
> The rest of the pictures were less devastating, conventional : demolished houses, wiped out villages and towns, more refugees , some of them starving, lovely babes on board of US marines ships and colored people from poor countries lining up in front of embassies hoping they will get them out of this hell.
> 
> The really devastating pictures will came later , much later, some day when all this will stop maybe we'll be able to visit the ruins of whole villages. But even then it might be too late : how long does it take corps buried under rubbles to disintegrate and vanish ?
> 
> Anyway , so I left the office early and went home with my friend who's staying with us because his house is in the southern suburb of Beirut. I was a bit worried because my brother in law , Khalil's brother, was there too and I was wondering if I'd be able to manage space for everybody to sleep comfortably.
> 
> Raed, my brother in law, and his eight-month pregnant wife , had left Jebshit in the south yesterday morning. They reached Beirut by 5:00 pm.
> 
> They had crossed a bridge in Habbouche who'd been targeted only once . It was destroyed but cars were still able to find a way through. Half an hour after Raed had crossed the bridge, it was bombed again and completely demolished this time (sounds like an Indian movie, right?). Of course Raed knew nothing about that , he trying to make out to Saida, then up to Baakline in the Shouf then way down back to Beirut.
> 
> When I got home , I asked if they had dinner. I was a bit ashamed because my fridge is empty. I hadn't had time lately to buy grocery and I'm "heavily" relying on milk to feed Kinda, my daughter. "Dinner ?" Raed asked , "we had 9 shawarma sandwiches, Rana (his wife) and I. Today was the first time we eat in 3 days".
> 
> He tells stories about Jebshit. Sad ones. No electricity , no water, no roads, no food, no newspapers. Some villages even run out of batteries, so they can't even listen to the news on the radio. Funny, isn't it, that in Beirut we know more about what's going on than the people concerned. Raed only knew they blew the Habbouche bridge when he listened to the news after he reached Beirut.
> 
> I have to admit to all of you that I have very mixed, weird, sick feelings about all this.
> 
> The first three or four days were very strange. I was in Beirut , sitting in an air conditioned office, watching the devastation of the South and the southern suburb. It felt like when you watch news and pictures from Palestine and Iraq. You feel frustrated and concerned, but you know there's not much you can do for them, for mere geographical reasons, at least that's the excuse one uses to comfort one's self. But "this" was happening a few kilometers away and I'd still be sitting here watching.
> 
> The other weird feeling was related to the first one: I felt that I was paying my dues. The guilt feeling I've always had toward Palestine, and later towards Iraq, has diminished a little bit. I felt like hugging Palestine and Iraq and screaming to them "We're with you, like you: left alone, suffering and part of your cause, a great one."
> 
> Sometimes I just flip and cry. Cry because I'm so helpless and angry. And most of the time I turn on my "automatic engine on". I wake up at six , come to the office, report hideous stories , feel nothing about them , do my job : double check , choose "fantastic" headlines , pick up the "best" pictures, try to be as professional as one can be. I do that for 12 to 14 hours. I'd then go home, pick up my daughter from my mother's house , and go to bed at one. The Israelis love to start their raids at ten past one, sometimes at five past one. That's when I'm in bed. Every night, when they start, I rush out to the balcony to see where the smoke comes from. I live on the twelfth floor. Every night , when I go out , I see the moon , my lovely moon , shyly hiding behind the clouds caused by the fires that are surrounding my Beirut.
> 
> This morning , I stayed home till 12:00. I played with Kinda. My poor little baby. She doesn't understand what's going on. She keeps asking about her cousins. She looks at their pictures and keeps repeating their names; as if it was an exercise not to forget them. I tell her they're in the mountains, and that we can't go there. When they call us, she refuses to talk to them. She thinks they abounded her.
> 
> The first time she heard the bombing, she rushed to my arms asking me if this was fireworks . I said " no , this is boum boum , ha ha ha " and started laughing. So now, every time she hears the bombing she starts singing "boum boum " and she laughs.
> 
> I left her at noon. She was sleepy, and wouldn't go to bed. It took a few minutes to realize the reason : she wanted to fall asleep in my arms. Before July the 12th, I would not move at her bed time. I'd put her on my lap , sing to her until she sleeps. For 10 days now, she's been sleeping in the stroller at my mother's house: only to guaranty that I will come pick her up when I finish working.
> 
> Two last notes: I feel ashamed talking about my daughter while other people's kids were either killed or lack of food and shelter. But I feel so guilty towards her.
> 
> Second : to all the Israelis who have been sending their comments on what I write , I say this : I agree with you , we are savages , blood lovers, we don't have feelings, and we actually enjoy looking at the pictures of victims. Actually , each time we see one , we party and dance. And in my writings, I'm only pretending to have feelings , and being pathetically sentimental only to bluff. Here, I'm admitting it. And to all my friends in the west : don't believe anything I say , cause I'm only viciously using you and trying to turn you into sympathizers of fundamental terrorism.
> 
> Hanady
> 
> 
> 
> Beirut
> July 19, 2006
> 
> The attached pictures are hideously gruesome, but you have to look at them . Help me find out what kind of weapons cause this kind of dismemberment and mutation.
> 
> What kind of weapons cause this kind of damage? Do you know? Could you find out?
> 
> None of this is confirmed, or could be here and now. However, there are growing doubts that Israel might be using internationally forbidden weapons in its current aggression against Lebanon. News from "Southern Medical Center", a hospital in Saida( in South Lebanon) are not good. Dr. Bashir Sham, member of "French Association of Cardiovascular Surgeons", explains that the way the corps look when they reach the hospital, especially those of the air strikes in Doueir and Rmayleih, is very abnormal." One might think they were burnt , but their colour is dark , they're inflated, and they have a terrible smell" All this , and the hair is not burnt nor do the bodies bleed.
> 
> Eight of the victims of an air strike on Rmayleih bridge, near Saida, on the 15th of July, were transferred to Sham's hospital.
> 
> Sham says that only chemical poisonous substances "lead to instant death without bleeding".
> And what indicates the power of these substances, is the high and unusual of number of dead victimes, compared to the number of injuries.
> 
> Sham thinks that whatever "abnormal " substance causing these features might penetrate through the skin, or another explanation would be that the missiles contained toxic gas that stopped the proper functioning of the nervous system, and led to blood clotting.
> 
> These toxic materials cause immediate death, within two to thirty minutes, according to Sham, who admits that these doubts can't be proven, not even by an autopsy.
> 
> The director of the same medical center, Ali Mansour, says that due to the strong smell of the corps, he couldn't breath properly for at least 12 hours after the corps were handled.
> 
> He explains that the center received eight bodies from Rmeileh last Monday, and none of them was bleeding.
> 
> Mansour tells us the hospital wrote to both the commissioner of the European Union for Foreign Affaires Javier Solana, and the United Nations Secretary general Kofi Anan. He said that dr Sham will communicate his doubts to the Doctors Order in Lebanon.
> 
> CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE!
> 
> Hanady
> 
> 
> 
> Beirut
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A body killed by a burning object lies in a Beirut suburb July 17- Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Lebanese firefighter extinguishes the charred body of a Lebanese truck driver who was killed when Israeli planes attacked the port in Beirut July 17 - AP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes, July 17 - Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A member of the Lebanese Red Cross walks past a badly burnt body in Beirut's port, which was targeted by Israeli warplanes-2.
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This is all you got?


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> This is all you got?



This tells that israel is a nazi land and* nukes* in its arsenal is unacceptable.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> This tells that israel is a nazi land and* nukes* in its arsenal is unacceptable.



Trolling - Ferry tales cannot be presented as proofs.


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## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Trolling - Ferry tales cannot be presented as proofs.



*The world is after the terror weapons at Demona!*


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *The world is after the terror weapons at Demona!*


 
The World? After? Terror? Weapons? at Dimona? 

Why you bother this thread with your dreams, nobody cares about them. Just go back to sleep in your little cave and stop your trolling in PDF.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> The World? After? Terror? Weapons? at Dimona?
> 
> Why you bother this thread with your dreams, nobody cares about them. Just go back to sleep in your little cave and stop your trolling in PDF.


 

*Israel a nuclear threat to the Middle East: Turkish PM*
AFPAFP &#8211; Wed, Oct 5, 2011


Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan (left) and South African Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe answer questions during a press conference in Pretoria. Erdogan said Israel is a "threat" to its region because it owns nuclear weapons. (AFP Photo/Jacoline Prinsloo)

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan (left) and South African Deputy President &#8230;

Israel is a "threat" to its region because it owns nuclear weapons, Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Wednesday.

"I right now see Israel as a threat for its region, because it has the atomic bomb," Erdogan said in a foreign policy speech during an official visit to South Africa.

He also accused Israel of committing "state terrorism."

Erdogan in the past has accused the West of "double standards" in the way that it has tried to ban Iran from building nuclear weapons without taking similar measures against Israel.

Israel has never officially admitting to possessing nuclear weapons.

Turkey downgraded relations with one-time ally Israel after the latter refused to apologise for its raid on a Gaza-bound Turkish aid flotilla, in which nine Turkish activists died on May 31, 2010.

Last month, Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador and froze military ties and defence trade deals. Ankara has also threatened to send warships to escort any Turkish vessels trying to reach Hamas-ruled Gaza.

Erdogan's remarks came in response to comments from an Israeli embassy diplomat in South Africa, who blamed radical Islamic organisation Hamas for launching rocket attacks into Israeli territory.

"I have asked many Israeli officials, how many Israelis, have been killed by rockets launched from Gaza and Palestine. I could not get an answer," Erdogan said.

"Yet tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed from bombs that have rained down on them from Israel."

"You sleep at night peacefully and secure," he told the diplomat, to applause by South African foreign affairs officials and members of the diplomatic corps.

"Yet Palestinians can't find a single trace of peace in Palestine."

Erdogan also said Israel had attacked the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip as well as the UN buildings in Gaza with phosphorus bombs.

In recent months, the United States has been alarmed at the estrangement between Turkey and its closest Middle East ally Israel.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is expected to urge Turkey to defuse tension and repair strategic ties with Israel when she visits Istanbul to attend a conference on Afghanistan next month.

Clinton will visit Turkey on November 2, Marc Grossman, US special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, was quoted as saying in the Turkish media.


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## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> *Israel a nuclear threat to the Middle East: Turkish PM*
> AFPAFP &#8211; Wed, Oct 5, 2011
> 
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan (left) and South African Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe answer questions during a press conference in Pretoria. Erdogan said Israel is a "threat" to its region because it owns nuclear weapons. (AFP Photo/Jacoline Prinsloo)
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan (left) and South African Deputy President &#8230;
> 
> Israel is a "threat" to its region because it owns nuclear weapons, Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Wednesday.
> 
> "I right now see Israel as a threat for its region, because it has the atomic bomb," Erdogan said in a foreign policy speech during an official visit to South Africa.
> 
> He also accused Israel of committing "state terrorism."
> 
> Erdogan in the past has accused the West of "double standards" in the way that it has tried to ban Iran from building nuclear weapons without taking similar measures against Israel.
> 
> Israel has never officially admitting to possessing nuclear weapons.
> 
> Turkey downgraded relations with one-time ally Israel after the latter refused to apologise for its raid on a Gaza-bound Turkish aid flotilla, in which nine Turkish activists died on May 31, 2010.
> 
> Last month, Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador and froze military ties and defence trade deals. Ankara has also threatened to send warships to escort any Turkish vessels trying to reach Hamas-ruled Gaza.
> 
> Erdogan's remarks came in response to comments from an Israeli embassy diplomat in South Africa, who blamed radical Islamic organisation Hamas for launching rocket attacks into Israeli territory.
> 
> "I have asked many Israeli officials, how many Israelis, have been killed by rockets launched from Gaza and Palestine. I could not get an answer," Erdogan said.
> 
> "Yet tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed from bombs that have rained down on them from Israel."
> 
> "You sleep at night peacefully and secure," he told the diplomat, to applause by South African foreign affairs officials and members of the diplomatic corps.
> 
> "Yet Palestinians can't find a single trace of peace in Palestine."
> 
> Erdogan also said Israel had attacked the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip as well as the UN buildings in Gaza with phosphorus bombs.
> 
> In recent months, the United States has been alarmed at the estrangement between Turkey and its closest Middle East ally Israel.
> 
> Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is expected to urge Turkey to defuse tension and repair strategic ties with Israel when she visits Istanbul to attend a conference on Afghanistan next month.
> 
> Clinton will visit Turkey on November 2, Marc Grossman, US special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, was quoted as saying in the Turkish media.



News Flash: The Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1918, so Turkey is hardly "the world".

However, "the world" through its representative body, the UN, and its representative executive forum, the Security Council, demanded Iran to stop its nuclear weapons development. 

But when "the world" demand your beloved Iran stop its nuclear development, you ignore it completely because the reality is not convenient to a mentally challenged anti-Semite like yourself.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> News Flash: The Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1918, so Turkey is hardly "the world".
> 
> However, "the world" through its representative body, the UN, and its representative executive forum, the Security Council, demanded Iran to stop its nuclear weapons development.
> 
> But when "the world" demand your beloved Iran stop its nuclear development, you ignore it completely because the reality is not convenient to a mentally challenged anti-Semite like yourself.



* 
Israeli Weapons of Mass Destruction: a Threat to Peace *


by John Steinbach

DC Iraq Coalition, March 2002

Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 3 March 2002


CRG's Global Outlook, premiere issue on "Stop the War" provides detailed documentation on the war and the "Post- September 11 Crisis." Order/subscribe. Consult Table of Contents

"Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability." Seymour Hersh(1)

"Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches." Ariel Sharon(2)

With between 200 and 500 thermonuclear weapons and a sophisticated delivery system, Israel has quietly supplanted Britain as the World's 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal. Although dwarfed by the nuclear arsenals of the U.S. and Russia, each possessing over 10,000 nuclear weapons, Israel nonetheless is a major nuclear power, and should be publically recognized as such.. Since the Gulf War in 1991, while much attention has been lavished on the threat posed by Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored. Possessing chemical and biological weapons, an extremely sophisticated nuclear arsenal, and an aggressive strategy for their actual use, Israel provides the major regional impetus for the development of weapons of mass destruction and represents an acute threat to peace and stability in the Middle East. The Israeli nuclear program represents a serious impediment to nuclear disarmament and nonproliferation and, with India and Pakistan, is a potential nuclear flashpoint.(prospects of meaningful non-proliferation are a delusion so long as the nuclear weapons states insist on maintaining their arsenals,) Citizens concerned about sanctions against Iraq, peace with justice in the Middle East, and nuclear disarmament have an obligation to speak out forcefully against the Israeli nuclear program.

Birth of the Israeli Bomb

The Israeli nuclear program began in the late 1940s under the direction of Ernst David Bergmann, "the father of the Israeli bomb," who in 1952 established the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission. It was France, however, which provided the bulk of early nuclear assistance to Israel culminating in construction of Dimona, a heavy water moderated, natural uranium reactor and plutonium reprocessing factory situated near Bersheeba in the Negev Desert. Israel had been an active participant in the French Nuclear weapons program from its inception, providing critical technical expertise, and the Israeli nuclear program can be seen as an extension of this earlier collaboration. Dimona went on line in 1964 and plutonium reprocessing began shortly thereafter. Despite various Israeli claims that Dimona was "a manganese plant, or a textile factory," the extreme security measures employed told a far different story. In 1967, Israel shot down one of their own Mirage fighters that approached too close to Dimona and in 1973 shot down a Lybian civilian airliner which strayed off course, killing 104.(3) There is substantial credible speculation that Israel may have exploded at least one, and perhaps several, nuclear devices in the mid 1960s in the Negev near the Israeli-Egyptian border, and that it participated actively in French nuclear tests in Algeria.(4) By the time of the "Yom Kippur War" in 1973, Israel possessed an arsenal of perhaps several dozen deliverable atomic bombs and went on full nuclear alert.(5)

Possessing advanced nuclear technology and "world class" nuclear scientists, Israel was confronted early with a major problem- how to obtain the necessary uranium. Israel's own uranium source was the phosphate deposits in the Negev, totally inadequate to meet the need of a rapidly expanding program. The short term answer was to mount commando raids in France and Britain to successfully hijack uranium shipments and, in1968, to collaborate with West Germany in diverting 200 tons of yellowcake (uranium oxide).(6) These clandestine acquisitions of uranium for Dimona were subsequently covered up by the various countries involved. There was also an allegation that a U.S. corporation called Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (NUMEC) diverted hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium to Israel from the mid-50s to the mid-60s.

Despite an FBI and CIA investigation, and Congressional hearings, no one was ever prosecuted, although most other investigators believed the diversion had occurred(7)(8). In the late 1960s, Israel solved the uranium problem by developing close ties with South Africa in a quid pro quo arrangement whereby Israel supplied the technology and expertise for the "Apartheid Bomb," while South Africa provided the uranium.

South Africa and the United States

In 1977, the Soviet Union warned the U.S. that satellite photos indicated South Africa was planning a nuclear test in the Kalahari Desert but the Apartheid regime backed down under pressure. On September 22, 1979, a U.S. satellite detected an atmospheric test of a small thermonuclear bomb in the Indian Ocean off South Africa but, because of Israel's apparent involvement, the report was quickly "whitewashed" by a carefully selected scientific panel kept in the dark about important details. Later it was learned through Israeli sources that there were actually three carefully guarded tests of miniaturized Israeli nuclear artillery shells. The Israeli/South African collaboration did not end with the bomb testing, but continued until the fall of Apartheid, especially with the developing and testing of medium range missiles and advanced artillery. In addition to uranium and test facilities, South Africa provided Israel with large amounts of investment capital, while Israel provided a major trade outlet to enable the Apartheid state avoid international economic sanctions.(9)

Although the French and South Africans were primarily responsible for the Israeli nuclear program, the U.S. shares and deserves a large part of the blame. Mark Gaffney wrote (the Israeli nuclear program) "was possible only because (emphasis in original) of calculated deception on the part of Israel, and willing complicity on the part of the U.S.."(10)

From the very beginning, the U.S. was heavily involved in the Israeli nuclear program, providing nuclear related technology such as a small research reactor in 1955 under the "Atoms for Peace Program." Israeli scientists were largely trained at U.S. universities and were generally welcomed at the nuclear weapons labs. In the early 1960s, the controls for the Dimona reactor were obtained clandestinely from a company called Tracer Lab, the main supplier of U.S. military reactor control panels, purchased through a Belgian subsidiary, apparently with the acquiescence of the National Security Agency (NSA) and the CIA.(11) In 1971, the Nixon administration approved the sale of hundreds of krytons(a type of high speed switch necessary to the development of sophisticated nuclear bombs) to Israel.(12) And, in 1979, Carter provided ultra high resolution photos from a KH-11 spy satellite, used 2 years later to bomb the Iraqi Osirak Reactor.(13) Throughout the Nixon and Carter administrations, and accelerating dramatically under Reagan, U.S. advanced technology transfers to Israel have continued unabated to the present.

The Vanunu Revelations

Following the 1973 war, Israel intensified its nuclear program while continuing its policy of deliberate "nuclear opaqueness." Until the mid-1980s, most intelligence estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal were on the order of two dozen but the explosive revelations of Mordechai Vanunu, a nuclear technician working in the Dimona plutonium reprocessing plant, changed everything overnight. A leftist supporter of Palestine, Vanunu believed that it was his duty to humanity to expose Israel's nuclear program to the world. He smuggled dozens of photos and valuable scientific data out of Israel and in 1986 his story was published in the London Sunday Times. Rigorous scientific scrutiny of the Vanunu revelations led to the disclosure that Israel possessed as many as 200 highly sophisticated, miniaturized thermonuclear bombs. His information indicated that the Dimona reactor's capacity had been expanded several fold and that Israel was producing enough plutonium to make ten to twelve bombs per year. A senior U.S. intelligence analyst said of the Vanunu data,"The scope of this is much more extensive than we thought. This is an enormous operation."(14)

Just prior to publication of his information Vanunu was lured to Rome by a Mossad "Mata Hari," was beaten, drugged and kidnapped to Israel and, following a campaign of disinformation and vilification in the Israeli press, convicted of "treason" by a secret security court and sentenced to 18 years in prison. He served over 11 years in solitary confinement in a 6 by 9 foot cell. After a year of modified release into the general population(he was not permitted contact with Arabs), Vanunu recently has been returned to solitary and faces more than 3 years further imprisonment. Predictably, The Vanunu revelations were largely ignored by the world press, especially in the United States, and Israel continues to enjoy a relatively free ride regarding its nuclear status. (15)

Israel's Arsenal of Mass Destruction

Today, estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal range from a minimum of 200 to a maximum of about 500. Whatever the number, there is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated, largely designed for "war fighting" in the Middle East. A staple of the Israeli nuclear arsenal are "neutron bombs," miniaturized thermonuclear bombs designed to maximize deadly gamma radiation while minimizing blast effects and long term radiation- in essence designed to kill people while leaving property intact.(16) Weapons include ballistic missiles and bombers capable of reaching Moscow, cruise missiles, land mines(In the 1980s Israel planted nuclear land mines along the Golan Heights(17)), and artillery shells with a range of 45 miles(18). In June, 2000 an Israeli submarine launched a cruise missile which hit a target 950 miles away, making Israel only the third nation after the U.S. and Russia with that capability. Israel will deploy 3 of these virtually impregnable submarines, each carrying 4 cruise missiles.(19)

The bombs themselves range in size from "city busters" larger than the Hiroshima Bomb to tactical mini nukes. The Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction clearly dwarfs the actual or potential arsenals of all other Middle Eastern states combined, and is vastly greater than any conceivable need for "deterrence."

Israel also possesses a comprehensive arsenal of chemical and biological weapons. According to the Sunday Times, Israel has produced both chemical and biological weapons with a sophisticated delivery system, quoting a senior Israeli intelligence official, "There is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weapon . . .which is not manufactured at the Nes Tziyona Biological Institute.")(20) The same report described F-16 fighter jets specially designed for chemical and biological payloads, with crews trained to load the weapons on a moments notice. In 1998, the Sunday Times reported that Israel, using research obtained from South Africa, was developing an "ethno bomb; "In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive a gene carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus... The scientists are trying to engineer deadly micro-organisms that attack only those bearing the distinctive genes." Dedi Zucker, a leftist Member of Knesset, the Israeli parliament, denounced the research saying, "Morally, based on our history, and our tradition and our experience, such a weapon is monstrous and should be denied."(21)

Israeli Nuclear Strategy

In popular imagination, the Israeli bomb is a "weapon of last resort," to be used only at the last minute to avoid annihilation, and many well intentioned but misled supporters of Israel still believe that to be the case. Whatever truth this formulation may have had in the minds of the early Israeli nuclear strategists, today the Israeli nuclear arsenal is inextricably linked to and integrated with overall Israeli military and political strategy. As Seymour Hersh says in classic understatement ; "The Samson Option is no longer the only nuclear option available to Israel."(22) Israel has made countless veiled nuclear threats against the Arab nations and against the Soviet Union(and by extension Russia since the end of the Cold War) One chilling example comes from Ariel Sharon, the current Israeli Prime Minister "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."(23) (In 1983 Sharon proposed to India that it join with Israel to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities; in the late 70s he proposed sending Israeli paratroopers to Tehran to prop up the Shah; and in 1982 he called for expanding Israel's security influence to stretch from "Mauritania to Afghanistan.") In another example, Israeli nuclear expert Oded Brosh said in 1992, "...we need not be ashamed that the nuclear option is a major instrumentality of our defense as a deterrent against those who attack us."(24) According to Israel Shahak, "The wish for peace, so often assumed as the Israeli aim, is not in my view a principle of Israeli policy, while the wish to extend Israeli domination and influence is." and "Israel is preparing for a war, nuclear if need be, for the sake of averting domestic change not to its liking, if it occurs in some or any Middle Eastern states.... Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East..., without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."(25)

Israel uses its nuclear arsenal not just in the context of deterrence" or of direct war fighting, but in other more subtle but no less important ways. For example, the possession of weapons of mass destruction can be a powerful lever to maintain the status quo, or to influence events to Israel's perceived advantage, such as to protect the so called moderate Arab states from internal insurrection, or to intervene in inter-Arab warfare.(26) In Israeli strategic jargon this concept is called "nonconventional compellence" and is exemplified by a quote from Shimon Peres; "acquiring a superior weapons system(read nuclear) would mean the possibility of using it for compellent purposes- that is forcing the other side to accept Israeli political demands, which presumably include a demand that the traditional status quo be accepted and a peace treaty signed."(27) From a slightly different perspective, Robert Tuckerr asked in a Commentary magazine article in defense of Israeli nukes, "What would prevent Israel... from pursuing a hawkish policy employing a nuclear deterrent to freeze the status quo?"(28) Possessing an overwhelming nuclear superiority allows Israel to act with impunity even in the face world wide opposition. A case in point might be the invasion of Lebanon and destruction of Beirut in 1982, led by Ariel Sharon, which resulted in 20,000 deaths, most civilian. Despite the annihilation of a neighboring Arab state, not to mention the utter destruction of the Syrian Air Force, Israel was able to carry out the war for months at least partially due to its nuclear threat.

Another major use of the Israeli bomb is to compel the U.S. to act in Israel's favor, even when it runs counter to its own strategic interests. As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote "We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, 'If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs.'"(29) During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, "If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions..."(30) Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."(31) Since then Israel's nuclear arsenal has expanded exponentially, both quantitatively and qualitatively, while the U.S. money spigots remain wide open.

Regional and International Implications

Largely unknown to the world, the Middle East nearly exploded in all out war on February 22, 2001. According to the London Sunday Times and DEBKAfile, Israel went on high missile alert after receiving news from the U.S. of movement by 6 Iraqi armored divisions stationed along the Syrian border, and of launch preparations of surface to surface missiles. DEBKAfile, an Israeli based "counter-terrorism" information service, claims that the Iraqi missiles were deliberately taken to the highest alert level in order to test the U.S. and Israeli response. Despite an immediate attack by 42 U.S. and British war planes, the Iraqis suffered little apparent damage.(32) The Israelis have warned Iraq that they are prepared to use neutron bombs in a preemptive attack against Iraqi missiles.

The Israeli nuclear arsenal has profound implications for the future of peace in the Middle East, and indeed, for the entire planet. It is clear from Israel Shahak that Israel has no interest in peace except that which is dictated on its own terms, and has absolutely no intention of negotiating in good faith to curtail its nuclear program or discuss seriously a nuclear-free Middle East,"Israel's insistence on the independent use of its nuclear weapons can be seen as the foundation on which Israeli grand strategy rests."(34) According to Seymour Hersh, "the size and sophistication of Israel's nuclear arsenal allows men such as Ariel Sharon to dream of redrawing the map of the Middle East aided by the implicit threat of nuclear force."(35) General Amnon Shahak-Lipkin, former Israeli Chief of Staff is quoted "It is never possible to talk to Iraq about no matter what; It is never possible to talk to Iran about no matter what. Certainly about nuclearization. With Syria we cannot really talk either."(36) Ze'ev Shiff, an Israeli military expert writing in Haaretz said, "Whoever believes that Israel will ever sign the UN Convention prohibiting the proliferation of nuclear weapons... is day dreaming,"(37) and Munya Mardoch, Director of the Israeli Institute for the Development of Weaponry, said in 1994, "The moral and political meaning of nuclear weapons is that states which renounce their use are acquiescing to the status of Vassal states. All those states which feel satisfied with possessing conventional weapons alone are fated to become vassal states."(38)

As Israeli society becomes more and more polarized, the influence of the radical right becomes stronger. According to Shahak, "The prospect of Gush Emunim, or some secular right-wing Israeli fanatics, or some some of the delerious Israeli Army generals, seizing control of Israeli nuclear weapons...cannot be precluded. ...while israeli jewish society undergoes a steady polarization, the Israeli security system increasingly relies on the recruitment of cohorts from the ranks of the extreme right."(39) The Arab states, long aware of Israel's nuclear program, bitterly resent its coercive intent, and perceive its existence as the paramount threat to peace in the region, requiring their own weapons of mass destruction. During a future Middle Eastern war (a distinct possibility given the ascension of Ariel Sharon, an unindicted war criminal with a bloody record stretching from the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Quibya in 1953, to the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 and beyond) the possible Israeli use of nuclear weapons should not be discounted. According to Shahak, "In Israeli terminology, the launching of missiles on to Israeli territory is regarded as 'nonconventional' regardless of whether they are equipped with explosives or poison gas."(40) (Which requires a "nonconventional" response, a perhaps unique exception being the Iraqi SCUD attacks during the Gulf War.)

Meanwhile, the existence of an arsenal of mass destruction in such an unstable region in turn has serious implications for future arms control and disarmament negotiations, and even the threat of nuclear war. Seymour Hersh warns, "Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability."(41) and Ezar Weissman, Israel's current President said "The nuclear issue is gaining momentum(and the) next war will not be conventional."(42) Russia and before it the Soviet Union has long been a major(if not the major) target of Israeli nukes. It is widely reported that the principal purpose of Jonathan Pollard's spying for Israel was to furnish satellite images of Soviet targets and other super sensitive data relating to U.S. nuclear targeting strategy. (43) (Since launching its own satellite in 1988, Israel no longer needs U.S. spy secrets.) Israeli nukes aimed at the Russian heartland seriously complicate disarmament and arms control negotiations and, at the very least, the unilateral possession of nuclear weapons by Israel is enormously destabilizing, and dramatically lowers the threshold for their actual use, if not for all out nuclear war. In the words of Mark Gaffney, "... if the familar pattern(Israel refining its weapons of mass destruction with U.S. complicity) is not reversed soon- for whatever reason- the deepening Middle East conflict could trigger a world conflagration." (44)

Many Middle East Peace activists have been reluctant to discuss, let alone challenge, the Israeli monopoly on nuclear weapons in the region, often leading to incomplete and uninformed analyses and flawed action strategies. Placing the issue of Israeli weapons of mass destruction directly and honestly on the table and action agenda would have several salutary effects. First, it would expose a primary destabilizing dynamic driving the Middle East arms race and compelling the region's states to each seek their own "deterrent." Second, it would expose the grotesque double standard which sees the U.S. and Europe on the one hand condemning Iraq, Iran and Syria for developing weapons of mass destruction, while simultaneously protecting and enabling the principal culprit. Third, exposing Israel's nuclear strategy would focus international public attention, resulting in increased pressure to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction and negotiate a just peace in good faith. Finally, a nuclear free Israel would make a Nuclear Free Middle East and a comprehensive regional peace agreement much more likely. Unless and until the world community confronts Israel over its covert nuclear program it is unlikely that there will be any meaningful resolution of the Israeli/Arab conflict, a fact that Israel may be counting on as the Sharon era dawns.


----------



## secularbuster

nirreich said:


> Why Pakistan has the right to have nukes and prevent IAEA's inspections and Israel should not be allowed to do the same?



It is because Pakistan is a peace-loving country while israel is a rogue state. However, I support total elimination of nuclear weapons from the world and the process should start with the elimination of WMDs of the US and israel.


----------



## nirreich

secularbuster said:


> It is because Pakistan is a peace-loving country while israel is a rogue state. However, I support total elimination of nuclear weapons from the world and the process should start with the elimination of WMDs of the US and israel.



Peace loving country? Pakistan? Are you from Bangladesh? Don't you know the history of your own country and how your people were intimately got to know the "peaceful" nature of Pakistan?

I agree, the world would be better without nuclear weapons, but we should start with Iran, Pakistan, and North Korea.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Peace loving country? Pakistan? Are you from Bangladesh? Don't you know the history of your own country and how your people were intimately got to know the "peaceful" nature of Pakistan?
> 
> I agree, the world would be better without nuclear weapons, but we should start with Iran, Pakistan, and North Korea.



*Nazi Reich, when your big daddy got independence from the forefathers of blair, the americans did not consider the Brits as very peace-loving but today they certainly consider the Brits as the most peace-loving people. The same goes for secularbuster I suppose.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Nazi Reich, when your big daddy got independence from the forefathers of blair, the americans did not consider the Brits as very peace-loving but today they certainly consider the Brits as the most peace-loving people. The same goes for secularbuster I suppose.*



My dear anti-Semite, be careful not to be banned again, I missed your hallucinated arguments, it would be a shame to loose you again.

However, your days under the ban did not improve your soundness: what an absurd comparison you made (as usual). The British did not butchered the local population like the Pakistan Army in 1970-1971, The Bangalis were an integral part of Pakistan and not a colony, and so on.

If you have no national dignity and you love Pakistan for killing your own people and treated them as inferior since its independence, then you deserve their humiliating attitude. 

Pakistan is a "peace loving country" that coincidental trains terror groups to kill thousands of innocent civilians in India and Afghanistan, that gave sanctuary to the most wanted terrorist, OBL, who was responsible for the murder of thousands of people in the 9/11 terror, that still hides the gang of the Taliban who murdered people (and especially women) while they were in power in Afghanistan in the name of a twisted interpretation of Islam.

And of course the "peace loving country" of Pakistan helped the most dangerous regimes on earth to develop nuclear weapons and to enable these tyrants to terrorise the entire international community and not just their own people and region (like Pakistan molest India and Afghanistan and of course its own citizens).

That is why when moving forward to a world-free of nukes Pakistan should be one of the first countries on the list of nuclear disarmament.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My dear anti-Semite, be careful not to be banned again, I missed your hallucinated arguments, it would be a shame to loose you again.
> 
> However, your days under the ban did not improve your soundness: what an absurd comparison you made (as usual). The British did not butchered the local population like the Pakistan Army in 1970-1971, The Bangalis were an integral part of Pakistan and not a colony, and so on.
> 
> If you have no national dignity and you love Pakistan for killing your own people and treated them as inferior since its independence, then you deserve their humiliating attitude.
> 
> Pakistan is a "peace loving country" that coincidental trains terror groups to kill thousands of innocent civilians in India and Afghanistan, that gave sanctuary to the most wanted terrorist, OBL, who was responsible for the murder of thousands of people in the 9/11 terror, that still hides the gang of the Taliban who murdered people (and especially women) while they were in power in Afghanistan in the name of a twisted interpretation of Islam.
> 
> And of course the "peace loving country" of Pakistan helped the most dangerous regimes on earth to develop nuclear weapons and to enable these tyrants to terrorise the entire international community and not just their own people and region (like Pakistan molest India and Afghanistan and of course its own citizens).
> 
> That is why when moving forward to a world-free of nukes Pakistan should be one of the first countries on the list of nuclear disarmament.


*
Everything sane is absurd to nazis and zionists, nothing new! The americans did not consider the brits as peace-loving two hundred years ago but they do now and that is the point. As time passes old enemies become friends and many things change but one thing for sure, israel and its nukes will always remain a threat to world peace. BTW what the Pakistanis diod to us in 1971 is nothing compared to what the Germans did to you during the Second World War, now, has that stopped you from becoming friendly with the Germans or have you chosen to be a traitor?*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Everything sane is absurd to nazis and zionists, nothing new!*



Now there are two trolls from Bangladesh in this thread who are terrified from any real debate.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Now there are two trolls from Bangladesh in this thread who are terrified from any real debate.



*A troll like you replies even before reading completely what others are saying!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *A troll like you replies even before reading completely what others are saying!*



??????


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Everything sane is absurd to nazis and zionists, nothing new! The americans did not consider the brits as peace-loving two hundred years ago but they do now and that is the point. As time passes old enemies become friends and many things change but one thing for sure, israel and its nukes will always remain a threat to world peace. BTW what the Pakistanis diod to us in 1971 is nothing compared to what the Germans did to you during the Second World War, now, has that stopped you from becoming friendly with the Germans or have you chosen to be a traitor?*



You are blind to the differences between the different cases, so I will just give you to bottom line: the German got rid of their Nazi regime (with the generous help of the Allied forces), Britain is no longer an Empire with colonies, but Pakistan is the same Pakistan that butchered your people in 1970-1971: manage by generals and intelligence agencies who use terror and violence against innocent civilians in order to empower their position.

Although it is part of your country's miserable history, you ignore it just not to jeopardise your anti-Semite ideas. Do not you have any national dignity?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are blind to the differences between the different cases, so I will just give you to bottom line: the German got rid of their Nazi regime (with the generous help of the Allied forces), Britain is no longer an Empire with colonies, but Pakistan is the same Pakistan that butchered your people in 1970-1971: manage by generals and intelligence agencies who use terror and violence against innocent civilians in order to empower their position.
> 
> Although it is part of your country's miserable history, you ignore it just not to jeopardise your anti-Semite ideas. Do not you have any national dignity?



*To the nazis and zionists their case is always different, that's how they have excelled in the art of hypocrisy. As I said according to your f*****d up theory you must be a traitor to have relations with the Germans. Anyway the topic is israel's nuclear threat to the region not our relation with Pakistan or israel's relation with the Germans! So, stay on the topic.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *To the nazis and zionists their case is always different, that's how they have excelled in the art of hypocrisy. As I said according to your f*****d up theory you must be a traitor to have relations with the Germans. Anyway the topic is israel's nuclear threat to the region not our relation with Pakistan or israel's relation with the Germans! So, stay on the topic.*



You cannot evade reality with your stupidity, no matter how much you try: you are defending the Pakistanis although it is the same regime that killed thousands of your people and treated them as inferior. And all in the name of your anti-Semitism, you are willing to give up your national dignity just that to attack Israel. Do not you have any shame?

As I said, regardless of your fantasies about Nazis, Germany is a democratic and liberal nation which took responsibility for the crimes of the Nazi regime, and behave accordingly, so there is no problem for having relations with Germany. However, Pakistan never took responsibility for its crimes against the Bangalis, and why should it? People like you do not even care.


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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat

nirreich said:


> You cannot evade reality with your stupidity, no matter how much you try: you are defending the Pakistanis although it is the same regime that killed thousands of your people and treated them as inferior. And all in the name of your anti-Semitism, you are willing to give up your national dignity just that to attack Israel. Do not you have any shame?
> 
> As I said, regardless of your fantasies about Nazis, Germany is a democratic and liberal nation which took responsibility for the crimes of the Nazi regime, and behave accordingly, so there is no problem for having relations with Germany. However, Pakistan never took responsibility for its crimes against the Bangalis, and why should it? People like you do not even care.



Classic Zionist Rant!


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## nirreich

Aeronaut said:


> Classic Zionist Rant!



Now we have on this thread another troll this time from the "glorious" republic of Pakistan


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*IAEA says foreign expertise has brought Iran to threshold of nuclear capability​*






By Joby Warrick, Published: November 7

Intelligence provided to U.N. nuclear officials shows that Irans government has mastered the critical steps needed to build a nuclear weapon, receiving assistance from foreign scientists to overcome key technical hurdles, according to Western diplomats and nuclear experts briefed on the findings.

Documents and other records provide new details on the role played by a former Soviet weapons scientist who allegedly tutored Iranians over several years on building high-precision detonators of the kind used to trigger a nuclear chain reaction, the officials and experts said. Crucial technology linked to experts in Pakistan and North Korea also helped propel Iran to the threshold of nuclear capability, they added.
The officials, citing secret intelligence provided over several years to the International Atomic Energy Agency, said the records reinforce concerns that Iran continued to conduct weapons-related research after 2003  when, U.S. intelligence agencies believe, Iranian leaders halted such experiments in response to international and domestic pressures.

The U.N. nuclear watchdog is due to release a report this week laying out its findings on Irans efforts to obtain sensitive nuclear technology. Fears that Iran could quickly build an atomic bomb if it chooses to has fueled anti-Iran rhetoric and new threats of military strikes. Some U.S. arms-control groups have cautioned against what they fear could be an overreaction to the report, saying there is still time to persuade Iran to change its behavior.
Iranian officials expressed indifference about the report.

Let them publish and see what happens, said Irans foreign minister and former nuclear top official, Ali Akbar Salehi, the semiofficial Mehr News Agency reported Saturday.

Salehi said that the controversy over Irans nuclear program is 100 percent political and that the IAEA is under pressure from foreign powers.

Never really stopped

Although the IAEA has chided Iran for years to come clean about a number of apparently weapons-related scientific projects, the new disclosures fill out the contours of an apparent secret research program that was more ambitious, more organized and more successful than commonly suspected. Beginning early in the last decade and apparently resuming  though at a more measured pace  after a pause in 2003, Iranian scientists worked concurrently across multiple disciplines to obtain key skills needed to make and test a nuclear weapon that could fit inside the countrys long-range missiles, said David Albright, a former U.N. weapons inspector who has reviewed the intelligence files.

The program never really stopped, said Albright, president of the Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security. The institute performs widely respected independent analyses of nuclear programs in countries around the world, often drawing from IAEA data.

After 2003, money was made available for research in areas that sure look like nuclear weapons work but were hidden within civilian institutions, Albright said.
U.S. intelligence officials maintain that Irans leaders have not decided whether to build nuclear weapons but are intent on gathering all the components and skills so they can quickly assemble a bomb if they choose to. Iran has consistently maintained that its nuclear activities are peaceful and intended only to generate electricity.

The IAEA has declined to comment on the intelligence it has received from member states, including the United States, pending the release of its report.
But some of the highlights were described in a presentation by Albright at a private conference of intelligence professionals last week. PowerPoint slides from the presentation were obtained by The Washington Post, and details of Albrights summary were confirmed by two European diplomats privy to the IAEAs internal reports. The two officials spoke on the condition of anonymity, in keeping with diplomatic protocol.

Albright said IAEA officials, based on the totality of the evidence given to them, have concluded that Iran has sufficient information to design and produce a workable implosion nuclear device using highly enriched uranium as its fissile core. In the presentation, he described intelligence that points to a formalized and rigorous process for gaining all the necessary skills for weapons-building, using native talent as well as a generous helping of foreign expertise.

The [intelligence] points to a comprehensive project structure and hierarchy with clear responsibilities, timelines and deliverables, Albright said, according to the notes from the presentation.

Key outside assistance

According to Albright, one key breakthrough that has not been publicly described was Irans success in obtaining design information for a device known as an R265 generator. The device is a hemispherical aluminum shell with an intricate array of high explosives that detonate with split-second precision. These charges compress a small sphere of enriched uranium or plutonium to trigger a nuclear chain reaction.

Creating such a device is a formidable technical challenge, and Iran needed outside assistance in designing the generator and testing its performance, Albright said.

According to the intelligence provided to the IAEA, key assistance in both areas was provided by Vyacheslav Danilenko, a former Soviet nuclear scientist who was contracted in the mid-1990s by Irans Physics Research Center, a facility linked to the countrys nuclear program. Documents provided to the U.N. officials showed that Danilenko offered assistance to the Iranians over at least five years, giving lectures and sharing research papers on developing and testing an explosives package that the Iranians apparently incorporated into their warhead design, according to two officials with access to the IAEAs confidential files.

Danilenkos role was judged to be so critical that IAEA investigators devoted considerable effort to obtaining his cooperation, the two officials said. The scientist acknowledged his role but said he thought his work was limited to assisting civilian engineering projects, the sources said.

There is no evidence that Russian government officials knew of Danilenkos activities in Iran. *E-mails requesting comment from Russian officials in Washington and Moscow were not returned. Efforts to reach Danilenko through his former company were not successful.

Iran relied on foreign experts to supply mathematical formulas and codes for theoretical design work  some of which appear to have originated in North Korea, diplomats and weapons experts say. Additional help appears to have come from the father of Pakistans nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, whose design for a device known as a neutron initiator was found in Iran, the sources said. Khan is known to have provided nuclear blueprints to Libya that included a neutron initiator, a device that shoots a stream of atomic particles into a nuclear weapons fissile core at the start of the nuclear chain reaction.

One Iranian document provided to the IAEA portrayed Iranian scientists as discussing plans to conduct a four-year study of neutron initiators beginning in 2007, four years after Iran was said to have halted such research.

It is unknown if it commenced or progressed as planned, Albright said.

The disclosures come against a backdrop of new threats of military strikes on Iran. Israeli newspapers reported last week that there is high-level government support in Israel for a military attack on Irans nuclear installations.

One of the problems with such open threats of military action is that it furthers the drift towards a military conflict and makes it more difficult to dial down tensions, said Peter Crail, a nonproliferation analyst with the Arms Control Association, a Washington advocacy group. It also risks creating an assumption that we can always end Irans nuclear program with a few airstrikes if nothing else works. Thats simply not the case.

Special correspondent Thomas Erdbrink in Tehran contributed to this report.
IAEA says foreign expertise has brought Iran to threshold of nuclear capability - The Washington Post


----------



## VelocuR

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> Raptor bhai, some say it was french commandoes who went into haram do u have any prove it was our ssg's that went in
> 
> Brother arab didnot backstabb us we enjoy good relations with Jordan saudia gulf states why u always say that
> 
> TARIQ



Wasalaam brother Tariq



> The seizure shocked the Islamic world as hundreds of pilgrims present for the annual hajj were taken hostage, and hundreds of militants, security forces and hostages caught in crossfire were killed in the ensuing battles for control of the site. The siege ended two weeks after the takeover began with militants cleared from the mosque.[2] Following the attack, the Saudi state implemented stricter enforcement of Islamic code.
> 
> Confusion reigned at the field command, where several senior princes, *the heads of the armed forces and military attachés from Pakistan gave advice. Pakistan Army infantry and armoured units deployed in Saudi Arabia were mobilized immediately. Pakistani SSG commandos were rushed to Mecca from Pakistan on Saudi Government's request.*
> 
> In the middle of the day, Saudi troops abseiled from helicopters directly into the courtyard in the center of the mosque. The soldiers were picked off by insurgents holding superior positions. At this point, King Khalid appointed Turki head of the operation.[16]
> 
> The insurgents broadcast their demands from the mosque loudspeakers, calling for the cutoff of oil exports to the United States and expulsion of all foreign civilian and military experts from the Arabian peninsula. On November 25, the Arab Socialist Action Party - Arabian Peninsula issued a statement from Beirut alleging to clarify the demands of the insurgents. The party, however, denied any involvement of its own in the seizure.
> *
> Pakistanis were the only forces besides Saudis&#8211; as non-Muslims cannot enter the city of Mecca. The Pakistanis asked for permission to end the siege by flooding the mosque and then dropping a high-voltage electric cable to electrocute all present. This suggestion was requested by the then Commandant of the Pakistan Special Services Group, Brigadier Tariq Mehmood. This proposal was deemed unacceptable by Saudi authorities. They then used tanks to ram the doors of the mosque and Pakistani Commandos[[2]] then resorted to spraying the mosque with non-lethal gases in order to subdue the occupiers, and dropped grenades into the chambers through holes drilled in the mosque courtyard. The Pakistani commandos stormed the mosque, and used the least amount of force possible to avoid damage to the mosque. They killed most of the insurgents, and managed to force the surrender of the survivors.
> 
> The battle had lasted more than two weeks, and had officially left "255 pilgrims, troops and fanatics" killed "another 560 injured ... although diplomats suggested the toll was higher." Military casualties were 127 dead and 451 injured.[20]
> 
> Pakistani and French troops reportedly entered the Grand Mosque and flooded it with water; applied electricity to it; and electrocuted most of the rebels. Other reports said that paralyzing gas was used. Still others say only three of the highly trained French GIGN counter-terrorist commandos were involved in the assault and they had received an instant conversion to Islam by Saudi religious leaders in a formal ceremony. The Pakistanis and French were called in after poor results from assaults by the Saudi Arabian National Guard (SANG). Lawrence Wright reports that three Frenchmen were called in, members of the highly trained GIGN counter-terrorism unit. Because non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy city, they converted to Islam in a brief formal ceremony by Saudi religious leaders. Saudi officials deny the French actually entered Mecca.
> 
> *


*
The Seizure of the Holy Kaaba - PakPassion - Pakistan Cricket Forum





Brother arab didnot backstabb us we enjoy good relations with Jordan saudia gulf states why u always say that

Click to expand...


You can't trust Arabs at all, they treated us second citizens. They historically backstabbing and selfish in the favor of West, Allah know best. 

More details- http://www.scribd.com/doc/37605460/Wahabis-Attacked-Ka-aba*

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## VelocuR

France President said Netanyahu is Liar, lol

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/139290-netanyahu-liar-nicholas-sarkozy.html#post2266052



> The conversation apparently began with President Obama criticizing Sarkozy for not having warned him that France would be voting in favor of the Palestinian membership bid in UNESCO despite Washington&#8217;s strong objection to the move.
> 
> *The conversation then drifted to Netanyahu, at which time Sarkozy declared: &#8220;I cannot stand him. He is a liar.&#8221; *According to the report, *Obama replied:* *&#8220;You&#8217;re fed up with him, but I have to deal with him every day!&#8221;*
> 
> The remark was naturally meant to be said in confidence, but the two leaders&#8217; microphones were accidently [sic] left on, making the would-be private comment embarrassingly public.]




---------- Post added at 04:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 AM ----------




agentny17 said:


> We don't have any Pakistanis in Egypt, so you can not say that we treat you as second citizens, and Egyptians who work in the Gulf region complain from the same things that you complain from. Its nothing against Pakistanis specificlly bro., it is that some people are not very nice, but some are, you can not generalize. I have very good Pakistani friends here in New York matter of fact.



You are right, it is not correct to generalize....

---------- Post added at 04:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------

Report: Sarkozy calls Netanyahu 'liar' - Israel News, Ynetnews

Microphones accidently left on after G20 meeting pick up private conversation between US, French presidents. Sarkozy admits he 'can't stand' Israeli premier. Obama: You're fed up with him? I have to deal with him every day!


French President Nicolas Sarkozy reportedly told US President Barack Obama that he could not "stand" Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and that he thinks the Israeli premier "is a liar."

According to a Monday report in the French website "Arret sur Images," after facing reporters for a G20 press conference on Thursday, the two presidents retired to a private room, to further discuss the matters of the day.

The conversation apparently began with President Obama criticizing Sarkozy for not having warned him that France would be voting in favor of the Palestinian membership bid in UNESCO despite Washington's strong objection to the move.

*The conversation then drifted to Netanyahu, at which time Sarkozy declared: "I cannot stand him. He is a liar." According to the report, Obama replied: "You're fed up with him, but I have to deal with him every day!"
* 
The remark was naturally meant to be said in confidence, but the two leaders' microphones were accidently left on, making the would-be private comment embarrassingly public.

*The communication faux pas went unnoticed for several minutes, during which the conversation between the two heads of state &#8211; which quickly reverted to other matters &#8211; was all but open to members the press, who were still in possession of headsets provided by the Elysée for the sake of simultaneous translation during the G20 press conference.
* 
"By the time the (media) services at the Elysée realize it, it was on for at least three minutes," one journalist told the website. Still, he said that reporters "did not have a chance to take advantage of this fluke."

*The surprising lack of coverage may be explained by a report alleging that reporters present at the event were requested to sign an agreement to keep mum on the subject of the embarrassing comments.
* 
A member of the media confirmed Monday that "there were discussions between journalists and they agreed not to publish the comments due to the sensitivity of the issue."


He added that while it was annoying to have to refrain from publishing the information, the journalists are subject to precise rules of conduct.

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## blackcobran

The restrictions are only for us.What they do is thier "right".


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## nirreich

blackcobran said:


> The restrictions are only for us.What they do is thier "right".



What restrictions? Pakistan in under no restrictions to develop nuclear weapons and unfortunately it used its ability to jeopardise global security.


----------



## monitor

*America itching to bomb Iran*
Posted on November 7, 2011
By Simon Jenkins

This time there will be no excuses. Plans for British support for an American assault on Iran, revealed in the Guardian on November 3, are appalling. They would risk what even the &#8220;wars of September 11&#8243; did not bring, a Christian-Muslim armageddon engulfing the region. This time no one should say they were not warned, that minds were elsewhere, that we were told it would be swift and surgical. Nobody should say that.

To western strategists, Iran today is exactly where Iraq was in 2002. The country posed no threat to the West. Yet &#8220;weapons of mass destruction&#8221; were said to be primed and had to be urgently eliminated. The offending regime could be subjugated by air power or, if not, by regime change. The cause was noble, and the outcome sure.

There any comparison ends. Iran is not a one-man, two-bit dictatorship, but a nation of 70 million people, an ancient and proud civilisation with a developed civil society and a modicum of pluralist democracy. Certainly its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants a weapons-ready nuclear enrichment programme, as the United Nations report by the International Atomic Energy Authority is expected to repeat. But he leads a country which, like Pakistan, Britain or Israel, craves status, prestige and the vague security that these unusable weapons seem to convey.

The planned attack on Iran is familiar in form. It is declared exclusively aerial, with missiles and unmanned drones deployed against nuclear and military targets. The airmen will promise, as they did in Belgrade, Baghdad and Benghazi, that bombing can do the job unaided. The enemy then digs in and fights back, the tempo of attack has to mount, and ground forces are sucked in.
Logic of war

We read that there are, as yet, no plans for a ground attack on Iran, though &#8220;a small number of special forces&#8221; may be required, as was required eventually in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. The mission will creep from wrecking Iran&#8217;s nuclear capability to ensuring it cannot be rebuilt, and then to securing regime change and &#8216;freedom&#8217;. We have been there so often before. The logic of war tends towards totality, without which no victory can be declared. Total war on Iran would be a catastrophe.

Stopping Iran from developing a nuclear capability is and always was a lost cause. It appears to be three years from deliverable warheads and is besieged by foreign agents launching cyber-attacks, selling fake components and assassinating scientists. But Iran would be no easy target, like Libya or Iraq. The more isolated and threatened Iran is by the West, the more nuclear assertiveness attracts its leadership, and the more allies would rally to its cause.

Every expert report on Iran warns that bombing is the one thing likely to bond the unpopular Ahmadinejad to his people. The idea that they would rise up against him after the Pentagon&#8217;s reported &#8216;shock and awe&#8217; three-day blitz of 1,200 targets is demented.

The wars of choice that followed September 11 have acquired a rhythm of their own. They have yielded 10 years of rolling thunder across the Muslim world, variously proclaiming retaliation, humanity, regime change and democracy. There have been pluses, the toppling of Saddam Hussain, Muammar Gaddafi and (temporarily) the Taliban. But the minuses have been tens of thousands killed, millions displaced, societies upheaved, billions of dollars of destruction and a region destabilised. The wars have been a gigantic, historic tragedy. They have not advanced western security one jot.

If ever there were a country that was once ripe for soft-power diplomacy, it was modern Iran. Yet the west misread Ahmadinejad and then misread such dissenters as Mohammad Khatami and parliament&#8217;s speaker, Mahdi Karroubi. It defied pleas from moderates not to impose sanctions, rejecting the argument that Iran needed a strengthened professional, commercial and academic class as counterweight to the military and the mullahs. As with the sanctions imposed on Saddam&#8217;s Iraq, Gaddafi&#8217;s Libya and Mugabe&#8217;s Zimbabwe, they have driven Iran&#8217;s rulers into a siege economy. Sanctions weaken the forces of pluralism and opposition. They are plainly counterproductive.

Western bombs cannot conquer Tehran. America and Britain might be able to invade in sufficient strength to knock out nuclear bunkers, but they could not stop rebuilding, especially after a war that would radicalise the nation and make it far more antagonistic. The outcome might make Israel feel temporarily a little safer, but it would render both Israel and the west more vulnerable to terrorist and other retaliation.

A virus seems to be running through the upper echelons of Washington and London, that of a moral duty to wage war against perceived evil wherever it offers a bombing target. Anyone watching last month&#8217;s Republican primary debate in Las Vegas will have been shocked at the belligerence shown by the six candidates towards the outside world.

It was a display of what the historian Robert D. Kaplan called &#8220;the warrior politics &#8230; of an imperial reality that dominates our foreign policy&#8221;, a fidgety search for reasons to go brawling round the globe, at any cost in resulting anarchy. The spectacle was frightening and depressing.

Copyright: Guardian News & Media Ltd

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## dadoon22

Counties that want to possess nuclear weapons also want to be like the United States in terms of how they see themselves. 

I am sure that in terms of producing a WMD, nuclear isn't by far the only option. So to begin and end with nuclear technology is only following in the foot steps of the United States. To develop a new unseen technology from scratch is really what the goal should be. 

Just a reminder that there is more than one answer to a problem.


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## T-Rex

*
Why No Objection
To Israel's WMD?*
By Hassan Tahsin
Palestine Chronicle


"Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa."



CAIRO -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has spelled out clearly his reasons for accepting the Middle East road map with 14 reservations. During the Aqaba summit on June 6, he said: 'Permanent peace requires permanent security. This permanent security will bring about permanent peace to Israel.' To accept peace on Sharonís terms would make the proposed Palestinian state a mockery in the service of Israelís security.

The most dangerous thing is that Israel is allowed to possess all kinds of weapons of mass destruction while Arab countries are denied these weapons under the pretext that Israel is under threat.

Israel has said that it is not yet time to look at its nuclear arsenal and weapons of mass destruction because it has not yet attained permanent security and peace.

As a result, Israel has become a depot for nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threatening the security of Arab, Asian and European countries. Does Israel require this large arsenal of banned weapons? The French constructed the Dimona nuclear reactor and produced enriched uranium. Israel was ready to produce its first nuclear bomb as early as 1965.

In March 1969, Moshe Dayan celebrated the birth of the Israeli nuclear state and the Israeli nuclear scientist Vannunu has acknowledged that his country was in 6th position in the nuclear club in the 1980s. According to one estimate, Israel possesses at least 100 nuclear bombs.

Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa. In 1994, US President Bill Clinton approved nine supercomputers to meet the needs of Israelís nuclear program. Informed sources have estimated that Israel has 100 to 200 nuclear warheads, but another report put the figure at more than 500.

Quoting Vannunu, American journalist Seymour Hersh says in his book that Israel possesses about 300 nuclear warheads. He also says that he has got information indicating Israel possesses hundreds of nitrogen bombs. Reports have confirmed that Israel has various types of nuclear weapons including nuclear bombs which could be dropped from planes, missile warheads, in addition to 25 hydrogen bombs.

Israel also holds an unspecified numbers of tactical weapons.

At least three international sources have confirmed that Israel had not only produced nuclear mines but spread them in various regions at different periods of the Arab-Israeli conflict, especially in Golan and Naqab during the military confrontation with Egypt in October 1973 and in January 1991.

The question is: Who can ask the international community to disarm Israel of its mass destructive weapons?



Arab News (arabnews.com) Published at the Arab News


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## T-Rex

*Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.

The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.

Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.

It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.*

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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.
> 
> The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.
> 
> Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.
> 
> It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.*



There is not a single word of truth in the above post:

"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.

This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).

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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> There is not a single word of truth in the above post:
> 
> "Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> "The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> "To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> "The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> "Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> "It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.
> 
> This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).



*There is not a single word of truth in your reply, it is just regular nazi lies!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *There is not a single word of truth in your reply, it is just regular nazi lies!*



My little anti-Semite troll: I answered to each one of your lies, but you preferred to troll in your reply.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My little anti-Semite troll: I answered to each one of your lies, but you preferred to troll in your reply.


*
Yeah mr. shylock, you answered with your usual pack of lies! Here's the truth:

Israeli Weapons of Mass Destruction, A Threat to Peace: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal

by John Steinbach


Global Research, January 7, 2007
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 3 March 2002 and DC Iraq Coalition



"Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability." Seymour Hersh(1)

"Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches." Ariel Sharon(2)
With between 200 and 500 thermonuclear weapons and a sophisticated delivery system, Israel has quietly supplanted Britain as the World's 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal. Although dwarfed by the nuclear arsenals of the U.S. and Russia, each possessing over 10,000 nuclear weapons, Israel nonetheless is a major nuclear power, and should be publically recognized as such.. Since the Gulf War in 1991, while much attention has been lavished on the threat posed by Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored. Possessing chemical and biological weapons, an extremely sophisticated nuclear arsenal, and an aggressive strategy for their actual use, Israel provides the major regional impetus for the development of weapons of mass destruction and represents an acute threat to peace and stability in the Middle East. The Israeli nuclear program represents a serious impediment to nuclear disarmament and nonproliferation and, with India and Pakistan, is a potential nuclear flashpoint.(prospects of meaningful non-proliferation are a delusion so long as the nuclear weapons states insist on maintaining their arsenals,) Citizens concerned about sanctions against Iraq, peace with justice in the Middle East, and nuclear disarmament have an obligation to speak out forcefully against the Israeli nuclear program.

Birth of the Israeli Bomb

The Israeli nuclear program began in the late 1940s under the direction of Ernst David Bergmann, "the father of the Israeli bomb," who in 1952 established the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission. It was France, however, which provided the bulk of early nuclear assistance to Israel culminating in construction of Dimona, a heavy water moderated, natural uranium reactor and plutonium reprocessing factory situated near Bersheeba in the Negev Desert. Israel had been an active participant in the French Nuclear weapons program from its inception, providing critical technical expertise, and the Israeli nuclear program can be seen as an extension of this earlier collaboration. Dimona went on line in 1964 and plutonium reprocessing began shortly thereafter. Despite various Israeli claims that Dimona was "a manganese plant, or a textile factory," the extreme security measures employed told a far different story. In 1967, Israel shot down one of their own Mirage fighters that approached too close to Dimona and in 1973 shot down a Lybian civilian airliner which strayed off course, killing 104.(3) There is substantial credible speculation that Israel may have exploded at least one, and perhaps several, nuclear devices in the mid 1960s in the Negev near the Israeli-Egyptian border, and that it participated actively in French nuclear tests in Algeria.(4) By the time of the "Yom Kippur War" in 1973, Israel possessed an arsenal of perhaps several dozen deliverable atomic bombs and went on full nuclear alert.(5)

Possessing advanced nuclear technology and "world class" nuclear scientists, Israel was confronted early with a major problem- how to obtain the necessary uranium. Israel's own uranium source was the phosphate deposits in the Negev, totally inadequate to meet the need of a rapidly expanding program. The short term answer was to mount commando raids in France and Britain to successfully hijack uranium shipments and, in1968, to collaborate with West Germany in diverting 200 tons of yellowcake (uranium oxide).(6) These clandestine acquisitions of uranium for Dimona were subsequently covered up by the various countries involved. There was also an allegation that a U.S. corporation called Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (NUMEC) diverted hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium to Israel from the mid-50s to the mid-60s.

Despite an FBI and CIA investigation, and Congressional hearings, no one was ever prosecuted, although most other investigators believed the diversion had occurred(7)(8). In the late 1960s, Israel solved the uranium problem by developing close ties with South Africa in a quid pro quo arrangement whereby Israel supplied the technology and expertise for the "Apartheid Bomb," while South Africa provided the uranium.

South Africa and the United States

In 1977, the Soviet Union warned the U.S. that satellite photos indicated South Africa was planning a nuclear test in the Kalahari Desert but the Apartheid regime backed down under pressure. On September 22, 1979, a U.S. satellite detected an atmospheric test of a small thermonuclear bomb in the Indian Ocean off South Africa but, because of Israel's apparent involvement, the report was quickly "whitewashed" by a carefully selected scientific panel kept in the dark about important details. Later it was learned through Israeli sources that there were actually three carefully guarded tests of miniaturized Israeli nuclear artillery shells. The Israeli/South African collaboration did not end with the bomb testing, but continued until the fall of Apartheid, especially with the developing and testing of medium range missiles and advanced artillery. In addition to uranium and test facilities, South Africa provided Israel with large amounts of investment capital, while Israel provided a major trade outlet to enable the Apartheid state avoid international economic sanctions.(9)

Although the French and South Africans were primarily responsible for the Israeli nuclear program, the U.S. shares and deserves a large part of the blame. Mark Gaffney wrote (the Israeli nuclear program) "was possible only because (emphasis in original) of calculated deception on the part of Israel, and willing complicity on the part of the U.S.."(10)

From the very beginning, the U.S. was heavily involved in the Israeli nuclear program, providing nuclear related technology such as a small research reactor in 1955 under the "Atoms for Peace Program." Israeli scientists were largely trained at U.S. universities and were generally welcomed at the nuclear weapons labs. In the early 1960s, the controls for the Dimona reactor were obtained clandestinely from a company called Tracer Lab, the main supplier of U.S. military reactor control panels, purchased through a Belgian subsidiary, apparently with the acquiescence of the National Security Agency (NSA) and the CIA.(11) In 1971, the Nixon administration approved the sale of hundreds of krytons(a type of high speed switch necessary to the development of sophisticated nuclear bombs) to Israel.(12) And, in 1979, Carter provided ultra high resolution photos from a KH-11 spy satellite, used 2 years later to bomb the Iraqi Osirak Reactor.(13) Throughout the Nixon and Carter administrations, and accelerating dramatically under Reagan, U.S. advanced technology transfers to Israel have continued unabated to the present.

The Vanunu Revelations

Following the 1973 war, Israel intensified its nuclear program while continuing its policy of deliberate "nuclear opaqueness." Until the mid-1980s, most intelligence estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal were on the order of two dozen but the explosive revelations of Mordechai Vanunu, a nuclear technician working in the Dimona plutonium reprocessing plant, changed everything overnight. A leftist supporter of Palestine, Vanunu believed that it was his duty to humanity to expose Israel's nuclear program to the world. He smuggled dozens of photos and valuable scientific data out of Israel and in 1986 his story was published in the London Sunday Times. Rigorous scientific scrutiny of the Vanunu revelations led to the disclosure that Israel possessed as many as 200 highly sophisticated, miniaturized thermonuclear bombs. His information indicated that the Dimona reactor's capacity had been expanded several fold and that Israel was producing enough plutonium to make ten to twelve bombs per year. A senior U.S. intelligence analyst said of the Vanunu data,"The scope of this is much more extensive than we thought. This is an enormous operation."(14)

Just prior to publication of his information Vanunu was lured to Rome by a Mossad "Mata Hari," was beaten, drugged and kidnapped to Israel and, following a campaign of disinformation and vilification in the Israeli press, convicted of "treason" by a secret security court and sentenced to 18 years in prison. He served over 11 years in solitary confinement in a 6 by 9 foot cell. After a year of modified release into the general population(he was not permitted contact with Arabs), Vanunu recently has been returned to solitary and faces more than 3 years further imprisonment. Predictably, The Vanunu revelations were largely ignored by the world press, especially in the United States, and Israel continues to enjoy a relatively free ride regarding its nuclear status. (15)

Israel's Arsenal of Mass Destruction

Today, estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal range from a minimum of 200 to a maximum of about 500. Whatever the number, there is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated, largely designed for "war fighting" in the Middle East. A staple of the Israeli nuclear arsenal are "neutron bombs," miniaturized thermonuclear bombs designed to maximize deadly gamma radiation while minimizing blast effects and long term radiation- in essence designed to kill people while leaving property intact.(16) Weapons include ballistic missiles and bombers capable of reaching Moscow, cruise missiles, land mines(In the 1980s Israel planted nuclear land mines along the Golan Heights(17)), and artillery shells with a range of 45 miles(18). In June, 2000 an Israeli submarine launched a cruise missile which hit a target 950 miles away, making Israel only the third nation after the U.S. and Russia with that capability. Israel will deploy 3 of these virtually impregnable submarines, each carrying 4 cruise missiles.(19)

The bombs themselves range in size from "city busters" larger than the Hiroshima Bomb to tactical mini nukes. The Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction clearly dwarfs the actual or potential arsenals of all other Middle Eastern states combined, and is vastly greater than any conceivable need for "deterrence."

Israel also possesses a comprehensive arsenal of chemical and biological weapons. According to the Sunday Times, Israel has produced both chemical and biological weapons with a sophisticated delivery system, quoting a senior Israeli intelligence official, "There is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weapon . . .which is not manufactured at the Nes Tziyona Biological Institute.")(20) The same report described F-16 fighter jets specially designed for chemical and biological payloads, with crews trained to load the weapons on a moments notice. In 1998, the Sunday Times reported that Israel, using research obtained from South Africa, was developing an "ethno bomb; "In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive a gene carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus... The scientists are trying to engineer deadly micro-organisms that attack only those bearing the distinctive genes." Dedi Zucker, a leftist Member of Knesset, the Israeli parliament, denounced the research saying, "Morally, based on our history, and our tradition and our experience, such a weapon is monstrous and should be denied."(21)

Israeli Nuclear Strategy

In popular imagination, the Israeli bomb is a "weapon of last resort," to be used only at the last minute to avoid annihilation, and many well intentioned but misled supporters of Israel still believe that to be the case. Whatever truth this formulation may have had in the minds of the early Israeli nuclear strategists, today the Israeli nuclear arsenal is inextricably linked to and integrated with overall Israeli military and political strategy. As Seymour Hersh says in classic understatement ; "The Samson Option is no longer the only nuclear option available to Israel."(22) Israel has made countless veiled nuclear threats against the Arab nations and against the Soviet Union(and by extension Russia since the end of the Cold War) One chilling example comes from Ariel Sharon, the current Israeli Prime Minister "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."(23) (In 1983 Sharon proposed to India that it join with Israel to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities; in the late 70s he proposed sending Israeli paratroopers to Tehran to prop up the Shah; and in 1982 he called for expanding Israel's security influence to stretch from "Mauritania to Afghanistan.") In another example, Israeli nuclear expert Oded Brosh said in 1992, "...we need not be ashamed that the nuclear option is a major instrumentality of our defense as a deterrent against those who attack us."(24) According to Israel Shahak, "The wish for peace, so often assumed as the Israeli aim, is not in my view a principle of Israeli policy, while the wish to extend Israeli domination and influence is." and "Israel is preparing for a war, nuclear if need be, for the sake of averting domestic change not to its liking, if it occurs in some or any Middle Eastern states.... Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East..., without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."(25)

Israel uses its nuclear arsenal not just in the context of deterrence" or of direct war fighting, but in other more subtle but no less important ways. For example, the possession of weapons of mass destruction can be a powerful lever to maintain the status quo, or to influence events to Israel's perceived advantage, such as to protect the so called moderate Arab states from internal insurrection, or to intervene in inter-Arab warfare.(26) In Israeli strategic jargon this concept is called "nonconventional compellence" and is exemplified by a quote from Shimon Peres; "acquiring a superior weapons system(read nuclear) would mean the possibility of using it for compellent purposes- that is forcing the other side to accept Israeli political demands, which presumably include a demand that the traditional status quo be accepted and a peace treaty signed."(27) From a slightly different perspective, Robert Tuckerr asked in a Commentary magazine article in defense of Israeli nukes, "What would prevent Israel... from pursuing a hawkish policy employing a nuclear deterrent to freeze the status quo?"(28) Possessing an overwhelming nuclear superiority allows Israel to act with impunity even in the face world wide opposition. A case in point might be the invasion of Lebanon and destruction of Beirut in 1982, led by Ariel Sharon, which resulted in 20,000 deaths, most civilian. Despite the annihilation of a neighboring Arab state, not to mention the utter destruction of the Syrian Air Force, Israel was able to carry out the war for months at least partially due to its nuclear threat.

Another major use of the Israeli bomb is to compel the U.S. to act in Israel's favor, even when it runs counter to its own strategic interests. As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote "We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, 'If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs.'"(29) During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, "If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions..."(30) Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."(31) Since then Israel's nuclear arsenal has expanded exponentially, both quantitatively and qualitatively, while the U.S. money spigots remain wide open.

Regional and International Implications

Largely unknown to the world, the Middle East nearly exploded in all out war on February 22, 2001. According to the London Sunday Times and DEBKAfile, Israel went on high missile alert after receiving news from the U.S. of movement by 6 Iraqi armored divisions stationed along the Syrian border, and of launch preparations of surface to surface missiles. DEBKAfile, an Israeli based "counter-terrorism" information service, claims that the Iraqi missiles were deliberately taken to the highest alert level in order to test the U.S. and Israeli response. Despite an immediate attack by 42 U.S. and British war planes, the Iraqis suffered little apparent damage.(32) The Israelis have warned Iraq that they are prepared to use neutron bombs in a preemptive attack against Iraqi missiles.

The Israeli nuclear arsenal has profound implications for the future of peace in the Middle East, and indeed, for the entire planet. It is clear from Israel Shahak that Israel has no interest in peace except that which is dictated on its own terms, and has absolutely no intention of negotiating in good faith to curtail its nuclear program or discuss seriously a nuclear-free Middle East,"Israel's insistence on the independent use of its nuclear weapons can be seen as the foundation on which Israeli grand strategy rests."(34) According to Seymour Hersh, "the size and sophistication of Israel's nuclear arsenal allows men such as Ariel Sharon to dream of redrawing the map of the Middle East aided by the implicit threat of nuclear force."(35) General Amnon Shahak-Lipkin, former Israeli Chief of Staff is quoted "It is never possible to talk to Iraq about no matter what; It is never possible to talk to Iran about no matter what. Certainly about nuclearization. With Syria we cannot really talk either."(36) Ze'ev Shiff, an Israeli military expert writing in Haaretz said, "Whoever believes that Israel will ever sign the UN Convention prohibiting the proliferation of nuclear weapons... is day dreaming,"(37) and Munya Mardoch, Director of the Israeli Institute for the Development of Weaponry, said in 1994, "The moral and political meaning of nuclear weapons is that states which renounce their use are acquiescing to the status of Vassal states. All those states which feel satisfied with possessing conventional weapons alone are fated to become vassal states."(38)

As Israeli society becomes more and more polarized, the influence of the radical right becomes stronger. According to Shahak, "The prospect of Gush Emunim, or some secular right-wing Israeli fanatics, or some some of the delerious Israeli Army generals, seizing control of Israeli nuclear weapons...cannot be precluded. ...while israeli jewish society undergoes a steady polarization, the Israeli security system increasingly relies on the recruitment of cohorts from the ranks of the extreme right."(39) The Arab states, long aware of Israel's nuclear program, bitterly resent its coercive intent, and perceive its existence as the paramount threat to peace in the region, requiring their own weapons of mass destruction. During a future Middle Eastern war (a distinct possibility given the ascension of Ariel Sharon, an unindicted war criminal with a bloody record stretching from the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Quibya in 1953, to the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 and beyond) the possible Israeli use of nuclear weapons should not be discounted. According to Shahak, "In Israeli terminology, the launching of missiles on to Israeli territory is regarded as 'nonconventional' regardless of whether they are equipped with explosives or poison gas."(40) (Which requires a "nonconventional" response, a perhaps unique exception being the Iraqi SCUD attacks during the Gulf War.)

Meanwhile, the existence of an arsenal of mass destruction in such an unstable region in turn has serious implications for future arms control and disarmament negotiations, and even the threat of nuclear war. Seymour Hersh warns, "Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability."(41) and Ezar Weissman, Israel's current President said "The nuclear issue is gaining momentum(and the) next war will not be conventional."(42) Russia and before it the Soviet Union has long been a major(if not the major) target of Israeli nukes. It is widely reported that the principal purpose of Jonathan Pollard's spying for Israel was to furnish satellite images of Soviet targets and other super sensitive data relating to U.S. nuclear targeting strategy. (43) (Since launching its own satellite in 1988, Israel no longer needs U.S. spy secrets.) Israeli nukes aimed at the Russian heartland seriously complicate disarmament and arms control negotiations and, at the very least, the unilateral possession of nuclear weapons by Israel is enormously destabilizing, and dramatically lowers the threshold for their actual use, if not for all out nuclear war. In the words of Mark Gaffney, "... if the familar pattern(Israel refining its weapons of mass destruction with U.S. complicity) is not reversed soon- for whatever reason- the deepening Middle East conflict could trigger a world conflagration." (44)

Many Middle East Peace activists have been reluctant to discuss, let alone challenge, the Israeli monopoly on nuclear weapons in the region, often leading to incomplete and uninformed analyses and flawed action strategies. Placing the issue of Israeli weapons of mass destruction directly and honestly on the table and action agenda would have several salutary effects. First, it would expose a primary destabilizing dynamic driving the Middle East arms race and compelling the region's states to each seek their own "deterrent." Second, it would expose the grotesque double standard which sees the U.S. and Europe on the one hand condemning Iraq, Iran and Syria for developing weapons of mass destruction, while simultaneously protecting and enabling the principal culprit. Third, exposing Israel's nuclear strategy would focus international public attention, resulting in increased pressure to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction and negotiate a just peace in good faith. Finally, a nuclear free Israel would make a Nuclear Free Middle East and a comprehensive regional peace agreement much more likely. Unless and until the world community confronts Israel over its covert nuclear program it is unlikely that there will be any meaningful resolution of the Israeli/Arab conflict, a fact that Israel may be counting on as the Sharon era dawns.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yeah mr. shylock, you answered with your usual pack of lies! Here's the truth:
> 
> Israeli Weapons of Mass Destruction, A Threat to Peace: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal
> 
> by John Steinbach
> 
> 
> Global Research, January 7, 2007
> Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 3 March 2002 and DC Iraq Coalition
> 
> 
> 
> "Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability." Seymour Hersh(1)
> 
> "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches." Ariel Sharon(2)
> With between 200 and 500 thermonuclear weapons and a sophisticated delivery system, Israel has quietly supplanted Britain as the World's 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal. Although dwarfed by the nuclear arsenals of the U.S. and Russia, each possessing over 10,000 nuclear weapons, Israel nonetheless is a major nuclear power, and should be publically recognized as such.. Since the Gulf War in 1991, while much attention has been lavished on the threat posed by Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored. Possessing chemical and biological weapons, an extremely sophisticated nuclear arsenal, and an aggressive strategy for their actual use, Israel provides the major regional impetus for the development of weapons of mass destruction and represents an acute threat to peace and stability in the Middle East. The Israeli nuclear program represents a serious impediment to nuclear disarmament and nonproliferation and, with India and Pakistan, is a potential nuclear flashpoint.(prospects of meaningful non-proliferation are a delusion so long as the nuclear weapons states insist on maintaining their arsenals,) Citizens concerned about sanctions against Iraq, peace with justice in the Middle East, and nuclear disarmament have an obligation to speak out forcefully against the Israeli nuclear program.
> 
> Birth of the Israeli Bomb
> 
> The Israeli nuclear program began in the late 1940s under the direction of Ernst David Bergmann, "the father of the Israeli bomb," who in 1952 established the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission. It was France, however, which provided the bulk of early nuclear assistance to Israel culminating in construction of Dimona, a heavy water moderated, natural uranium reactor and plutonium reprocessing factory situated near Bersheeba in the Negev Desert. Israel had been an active participant in the French Nuclear weapons program from its inception, providing critical technical expertise, and the Israeli nuclear program can be seen as an extension of this earlier collaboration. Dimona went on line in 1964 and plutonium reprocessing began shortly thereafter. Despite various Israeli claims that Dimona was "a manganese plant, or a textile factory," the extreme security measures employed told a far different story. In 1967, Israel shot down one of their own Mirage fighters that approached too close to Dimona and in 1973 shot down a Lybian civilian airliner which strayed off course, killing 104.(3) There is substantial credible speculation that Israel may have exploded at least one, and perhaps several, nuclear devices in the mid 1960s in the Negev near the Israeli-Egyptian border, and that it participated actively in French nuclear tests in Algeria.(4) By the time of the "Yom Kippur War" in 1973, Israel possessed an arsenal of perhaps several dozen deliverable atomic bombs and went on full nuclear alert.(5)
> 
> Possessing advanced nuclear technology and "world class" nuclear scientists, Israel was confronted early with a major problem- how to obtain the necessary uranium. Israel's own uranium source was the phosphate deposits in the Negev, totally inadequate to meet the need of a rapidly expanding program. The short term answer was to mount commando raids in France and Britain to successfully hijack uranium shipments and, in1968, to collaborate with West Germany in diverting 200 tons of yellowcake (uranium oxide).(6) These clandestine acquisitions of uranium for Dimona were subsequently covered up by the various countries involved. There was also an allegation that a U.S. corporation called Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (NUMEC) diverted hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium to Israel from the mid-50s to the mid-60s.
> 
> Despite an FBI and CIA investigation, and Congressional hearings, no one was ever prosecuted, although most other investigators believed the diversion had occurred(7)(8). In the late 1960s, Israel solved the uranium problem by developing close ties with South Africa in a quid pro quo arrangement whereby Israel supplied the technology and expertise for the "Apartheid Bomb," while South Africa provided the uranium.
> 
> South Africa and the United States
> 
> In 1977, the Soviet Union warned the U.S. that satellite photos indicated South Africa was planning a nuclear test in the Kalahari Desert but the Apartheid regime backed down under pressure. On September 22, 1979, a U.S. satellite detected an atmospheric test of a small thermonuclear bomb in the Indian Ocean off South Africa but, because of Israel's apparent involvement, the report was quickly "whitewashed" by a carefully selected scientific panel kept in the dark about important details. Later it was learned through Israeli sources that there were actually three carefully guarded tests of miniaturized Israeli nuclear artillery shells. The Israeli/South African collaboration did not end with the bomb testing, but continued until the fall of Apartheid, especially with the developing and testing of medium range missiles and advanced artillery. In addition to uranium and test facilities, South Africa provided Israel with large amounts of investment capital, while Israel provided a major trade outlet to enable the Apartheid state avoid international economic sanctions.(9)
> 
> Although the French and South Africans were primarily responsible for the Israeli nuclear program, the U.S. shares and deserves a large part of the blame. Mark Gaffney wrote (the Israeli nuclear program) "was possible only because (emphasis in original) of calculated deception on the part of Israel, and willing complicity on the part of the U.S.."(10)
> 
> From the very beginning, the U.S. was heavily involved in the Israeli nuclear program, providing nuclear related technology such as a small research reactor in 1955 under the "Atoms for Peace Program." Israeli scientists were largely trained at U.S. universities and were generally welcomed at the nuclear weapons labs. In the early 1960s, the controls for the Dimona reactor were obtained clandestinely from a company called Tracer Lab, the main supplier of U.S. military reactor control panels, purchased through a Belgian subsidiary, apparently with the acquiescence of the National Security Agency (NSA) and the CIA.(11) In 1971, the Nixon administration approved the sale of hundreds of krytons(a type of high speed switch necessary to the development of sophisticated nuclear bombs) to Israel.(12) And, in 1979, Carter provided ultra high resolution photos from a KH-11 spy satellite, used 2 years later to bomb the Iraqi Osirak Reactor.(13) Throughout the Nixon and Carter administrations, and accelerating dramatically under Reagan, U.S. advanced technology transfers to Israel have continued unabated to the present.
> 
> The Vanunu Revelations
> 
> Following the 1973 war, Israel intensified its nuclear program while continuing its policy of deliberate "nuclear opaqueness." Until the mid-1980s, most intelligence estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal were on the order of two dozen but the explosive revelations of Mordechai Vanunu, a nuclear technician working in the Dimona plutonium reprocessing plant, changed everything overnight. A leftist supporter of Palestine, Vanunu believed that it was his duty to humanity to expose Israel's nuclear program to the world. He smuggled dozens of photos and valuable scientific data out of Israel and in 1986 his story was published in the London Sunday Times. Rigorous scientific scrutiny of the Vanunu revelations led to the disclosure that Israel possessed as many as 200 highly sophisticated, miniaturized thermonuclear bombs. His information indicated that the Dimona reactor's capacity had been expanded several fold and that Israel was producing enough plutonium to make ten to twelve bombs per year. A senior U.S. intelligence analyst said of the Vanunu data,"The scope of this is much more extensive than we thought. This is an enormous operation."(14)
> 
> Just prior to publication of his information Vanunu was lured to Rome by a Mossad "Mata Hari," was beaten, drugged and kidnapped to Israel and, following a campaign of disinformation and vilification in the Israeli press, convicted of "treason" by a secret security court and sentenced to 18 years in prison. He served over 11 years in solitary confinement in a 6 by 9 foot cell. After a year of modified release into the general population(he was not permitted contact with Arabs), Vanunu recently has been returned to solitary and faces more than 3 years further imprisonment. Predictably, The Vanunu revelations were largely ignored by the world press, especially in the United States, and Israel continues to enjoy a relatively free ride regarding its nuclear status. (15)
> 
> Israel's Arsenal of Mass Destruction
> 
> Today, estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal range from a minimum of 200 to a maximum of about 500. Whatever the number, there is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated, largely designed for "war fighting" in the Middle East. A staple of the Israeli nuclear arsenal are "neutron bombs," miniaturized thermonuclear bombs designed to maximize deadly gamma radiation while minimizing blast effects and long term radiation- in essence designed to kill people while leaving property intact.(16) Weapons include ballistic missiles and bombers capable of reaching Moscow, cruise missiles, land mines(In the 1980s Israel planted nuclear land mines along the Golan Heights(17)), and artillery shells with a range of 45 miles(18). In June, 2000 an Israeli submarine launched a cruise missile which hit a target 950 miles away, making Israel only the third nation after the U.S. and Russia with that capability. Israel will deploy 3 of these virtually impregnable submarines, each carrying 4 cruise missiles.(19)
> 
> The bombs themselves range in size from "city busters" larger than the Hiroshima Bomb to tactical mini nukes. The Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction clearly dwarfs the actual or potential arsenals of all other Middle Eastern states combined, and is vastly greater than any conceivable need for "deterrence."
> 
> Israel also possesses a comprehensive arsenal of chemical and biological weapons. According to the Sunday Times, Israel has produced both chemical and biological weapons with a sophisticated delivery system, quoting a senior Israeli intelligence official, "There is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weapon . . .which is not manufactured at the Nes Tziyona Biological Institute.")(20) The same report described F-16 fighter jets specially designed for chemical and biological payloads, with crews trained to load the weapons on a moments notice. In 1998, the Sunday Times reported that Israel, using research obtained from South Africa, was developing an "ethno bomb; "In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive a gene carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus... The scientists are trying to engineer deadly micro-organisms that attack only those bearing the distinctive genes." Dedi Zucker, a leftist Member of Knesset, the Israeli parliament, denounced the research saying, "Morally, based on our history, and our tradition and our experience, such a weapon is monstrous and should be denied."(21)
> 
> Israeli Nuclear Strategy
> 
> In popular imagination, the Israeli bomb is a "weapon of last resort," to be used only at the last minute to avoid annihilation, and many well intentioned but misled supporters of Israel still believe that to be the case. Whatever truth this formulation may have had in the minds of the early Israeli nuclear strategists, today the Israeli nuclear arsenal is inextricably linked to and integrated with overall Israeli military and political strategy. As Seymour Hersh says in classic understatement ; "The Samson Option is no longer the only nuclear option available to Israel."(22) Israel has made countless veiled nuclear threats against the Arab nations and against the Soviet Union(and by extension Russia since the end of the Cold War) One chilling example comes from Ariel Sharon, the current Israeli Prime Minister "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."(23) (In 1983 Sharon proposed to India that it join with Israel to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities; in the late 70s he proposed sending Israeli paratroopers to Tehran to prop up the Shah; and in 1982 he called for expanding Israel's security influence to stretch from "Mauritania to Afghanistan.") In another example, Israeli nuclear expert Oded Brosh said in 1992, "...we need not be ashamed that the nuclear option is a major instrumentality of our defense as a deterrent against those who attack us."(24) According to Israel Shahak, "The wish for peace, so often assumed as the Israeli aim, is not in my view a principle of Israeli policy, while the wish to extend Israeli domination and influence is." and "Israel is preparing for a war, nuclear if need be, for the sake of averting domestic change not to its liking, if it occurs in some or any Middle Eastern states.... Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East..., without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."(25)
> 
> Israel uses its nuclear arsenal not just in the context of deterrence" or of direct war fighting, but in other more subtle but no less important ways. For example, the possession of weapons of mass destruction can be a powerful lever to maintain the status quo, or to influence events to Israel's perceived advantage, such as to protect the so called moderate Arab states from internal insurrection, or to intervene in inter-Arab warfare.(26) In Israeli strategic jargon this concept is called "nonconventional compellence" and is exemplified by a quote from Shimon Peres; "acquiring a superior weapons system(read nuclear) would mean the possibility of using it for compellent purposes- that is forcing the other side to accept Israeli political demands, which presumably include a demand that the traditional status quo be accepted and a peace treaty signed."(27) From a slightly different perspective, Robert Tuckerr asked in a Commentary magazine article in defense of Israeli nukes, "What would prevent Israel... from pursuing a hawkish policy employing a nuclear deterrent to freeze the status quo?"(28) Possessing an overwhelming nuclear superiority allows Israel to act with impunity even in the face world wide opposition. A case in point might be the invasion of Lebanon and destruction of Beirut in 1982, led by Ariel Sharon, which resulted in 20,000 deaths, most civilian. Despite the annihilation of a neighboring Arab state, not to mention the utter destruction of the Syrian Air Force, Israel was able to carry out the war for months at least partially due to its nuclear threat.
> 
> Another major use of the Israeli bomb is to compel the U.S. to act in Israel's favor, even when it runs counter to its own strategic interests. As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote "We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, 'If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs.'"(29) During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, "If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions..."(30) Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."(31) Since then Israel's nuclear arsenal has expanded exponentially, both quantitatively and qualitatively, while the U.S. money spigots remain wide open.
> 
> Regional and International Implications
> 
> Largely unknown to the world, the Middle East nearly exploded in all out war on February 22, 2001. According to the London Sunday Times and DEBKAfile, Israel went on high missile alert after receiving news from the U.S. of movement by 6 Iraqi armored divisions stationed along the Syrian border, and of launch preparations of surface to surface missiles. DEBKAfile, an Israeli based "counter-terrorism" information service, claims that the Iraqi missiles were deliberately taken to the highest alert level in order to test the U.S. and Israeli response. Despite an immediate attack by 42 U.S. and British war planes, the Iraqis suffered little apparent damage.(32) The Israelis have warned Iraq that they are prepared to use neutron bombs in a preemptive attack against Iraqi missiles.
> 
> The Israeli nuclear arsenal has profound implications for the future of peace in the Middle East, and indeed, for the entire planet. It is clear from Israel Shahak that Israel has no interest in peace except that which is dictated on its own terms, and has absolutely no intention of negotiating in good faith to curtail its nuclear program or discuss seriously a nuclear-free Middle East,"Israel's insistence on the independent use of its nuclear weapons can be seen as the foundation on which Israeli grand strategy rests."(34) According to Seymour Hersh, "the size and sophistication of Israel's nuclear arsenal allows men such as Ariel Sharon to dream of redrawing the map of the Middle East aided by the implicit threat of nuclear force."(35) General Amnon Shahak-Lipkin, former Israeli Chief of Staff is quoted "It is never possible to talk to Iraq about no matter what; It is never possible to talk to Iran about no matter what. Certainly about nuclearization. With Syria we cannot really talk either."(36) Ze'ev Shiff, an Israeli military expert writing in Haaretz said, "Whoever believes that Israel will ever sign the UN Convention prohibiting the proliferation of nuclear weapons... is day dreaming,"(37) and Munya Mardoch, Director of the Israeli Institute for the Development of Weaponry, said in 1994, "The moral and political meaning of nuclear weapons is that states which renounce their use are acquiescing to the status of Vassal states. All those states which feel satisfied with possessing conventional weapons alone are fated to become vassal states."(38)
> 
> As Israeli society becomes more and more polarized, the influence of the radical right becomes stronger. According to Shahak, "The prospect of Gush Emunim, or some secular right-wing Israeli fanatics, or some some of the delerious Israeli Army generals, seizing control of Israeli nuclear weapons...cannot be precluded. ...while israeli jewish society undergoes a steady polarization, the Israeli security system increasingly relies on the recruitment of cohorts from the ranks of the extreme right."(39) The Arab states, long aware of Israel's nuclear program, bitterly resent its coercive intent, and perceive its existence as the paramount threat to peace in the region, requiring their own weapons of mass destruction. During a future Middle Eastern war (a distinct possibility given the ascension of Ariel Sharon, an unindicted war criminal with a bloody record stretching from the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Quibya in 1953, to the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 and beyond) the possible Israeli use of nuclear weapons should not be discounted. According to Shahak, "In Israeli terminology, the launching of missiles on to Israeli territory is regarded as 'nonconventional' regardless of whether they are equipped with explosives or poison gas."(40) (Which requires a "nonconventional" response, a perhaps unique exception being the Iraqi SCUD attacks during the Gulf War.)
> 
> Meanwhile, the existence of an arsenal of mass destruction in such an unstable region in turn has serious implications for future arms control and disarmament negotiations, and even the threat of nuclear war. Seymour Hersh warns, "Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability."(41) and Ezar Weissman, Israel's current President said "The nuclear issue is gaining momentum(and the) next war will not be conventional."(42) Russia and before it the Soviet Union has long been a major(if not the major) target of Israeli nukes. It is widely reported that the principal purpose of Jonathan Pollard's spying for Israel was to furnish satellite images of Soviet targets and other super sensitive data relating to U.S. nuclear targeting strategy. (43) (Since launching its own satellite in 1988, Israel no longer needs U.S. spy secrets.) Israeli nukes aimed at the Russian heartland seriously complicate disarmament and arms control negotiations and, at the very least, the unilateral possession of nuclear weapons by Israel is enormously destabilizing, and dramatically lowers the threshold for their actual use, if not for all out nuclear war. In the words of Mark Gaffney, "... if the familar pattern(Israel refining its weapons of mass destruction with U.S. complicity) is not reversed soon- for whatever reason- the deepening Middle East conflict could trigger a world conflagration." (44)
> 
> Many Middle East Peace activists have been reluctant to discuss, let alone challenge, the Israeli monopoly on nuclear weapons in the region, often leading to incomplete and uninformed analyses and flawed action strategies. Placing the issue of Israeli weapons of mass destruction directly and honestly on the table and action agenda would have several salutary effects. First, it would expose a primary destabilizing dynamic driving the Middle East arms race and compelling the region's states to each seek their own "deterrent." Second, it would expose the grotesque double standard which sees the U.S. and Europe on the one hand condemning Iraq, Iran and Syria for developing weapons of mass destruction, while simultaneously protecting and enabling the principal culprit. Third, exposing Israel's nuclear strategy would focus international public attention, resulting in increased pressure to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction and negotiate a just peace in good faith. Finally, a nuclear free Israel would make a Nuclear Free Middle East and a comprehensive regional peace agreement much more likely. Unless and until the world community confronts Israel over its covert nuclear program it is unlikely that there will be any meaningful resolution of the Israeli/Arab conflict, a fact that Israel may be counting on as the Sharon era dawns.*



Now we all know that you are not just a troll who knows how to cut-and-paste but a troll who knows how to cut-and-paste bold letters.

Keep hiding behind all the nonsense you pick up and think it somehow compensate for your lack of reply to my arguments.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Now we all know that you are not just a troll who knows how to cut-and-paste but a troll who knows how to cut-and-paste bold letters.
> 
> Keep hiding behind all the nonsense you pick up and think it somehow compensate for your lack of reply to my arguments.



*Here's more of the threat from the israeli nukes:*


*So long as any state has nuclear weapons others will want them*. So long as any such weapons remain, there is a high risk that they will one day be used, by design or accident. And any such use would be catastrophic. (Canberra Commission on the Elimination of Nuclear Weapons). The war drums are again beating over Iran

Israel, the World&#8217;s Neglected Nuclear Nation. USA and its allies want to control [nuclear proliferation in] the whole Muslim world and everyone's asking in Muslim world now, 'What about Israel?"' South Africa acknowledged that, in the late 1970s, it created six nuclear bombs with the technical assistance of Israel. There is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated and are largely designed for "war fighting" in the Middle East .

Ezar Weissman, Israel's EX President said "The nuclear issue is gaining momentum (and the) next war will not be conventional. Israeli nuclear expert Oded Brosh said in 1992, "...we need not be ashamed that the nuclear option is a major instrumentality of our defense as a deterrent against those who attack us."( Israel Shahak, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies, London, 1997). Since the 1960s, when Israel produced its first A-bomb&#8217;s worth of plutonium, it has enjoyed a surprisingly long-lived monopoly on nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Now, with the nuclear resurgence of Iran, that monopoly could end, with consequences to the region that are difficult to foresee.

The International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed El Baradei regards Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons (Mohamed El Baradei (27 July 2004). Since the Gulf War in 1991, much attention has been lavished on an alleged threat from Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, In 2002 blame on Pakistan (Dr.AQKhan WMD ring) to run a nuclear weapons black market and transfer of technology to Libya and North Korea. *Now tunes is turned 2ward Iran while the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored.* It is now firmly Israel under the thrall of rightwing neocon nutjobs.The current Israeli government is pursuing a path of military craziness in the hopes of drawing the US into its own war.

Israel put defenses around its Dimona nuclear reactor on "red alert" 30 times as worries grew that Syria would avenge Israel's September 2007 attack on a suspected nuclear site in Syria. Since World War II, strikes to halt nuclear activities have taken place exclusively in the Middle East: Iraq was struck by Iran (1980), Israel (1981) the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad in 1981. That strike, which destroyed the facility in under 100 seconds, was completed without Israeli losses and checked Iraqi ambitions for a nuclear weapons programme. and the US (1991, 2003), while Iraq bombed Iran (1984 to 1987) and Israel (1991). But raids never generated significant radiological consequences, because plants were under construction, contained inconsequential amounts of nuclear material, had radioactive elements removed prior to the attack, or because the attacker missed the mark. With the CTBT in limbo and the NPT being steadily eroded; with North Korea's bomb test and Iran's nuclear plans.


----------



## nirreich

Run Run Run away, always on the run.




T-Rex said:


> *Here's more of the threat from the israeli nukes:*
> 
> 
> *So long as any state has nuclear weapons others will want them*. So long as any such weapons remain, there is a high risk that they will one day be used, by design or accident. And any such use would be catastrophic. (Canberra Commission on the Elimination of Nuclear Weapons). The war drums are again beating over Iran
> 
> Israel, the World&#8217;s Neglected Nuclear Nation. USA and its allies want to control [nuclear proliferation in] the whole Muslim world and everyone's asking in Muslim world now, 'What about Israel?"' South Africa acknowledged that, in the late 1970s, it created six nuclear bombs with the technical assistance of Israel. There is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated and are largely designed for "war fighting" in the Middle East .
> 
> Ezar Weissman, Israel's EX President said "The nuclear issue is gaining momentum (and the) next war will not be conventional. Israeli nuclear expert Oded Brosh said in 1992, "...we need not be ashamed that the nuclear option is a major instrumentality of our defense as a deterrent against those who attack us."( Israel Shahak, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies, London, 1997). Since the 1960s, when Israel produced its first A-bomb&#8217;s worth of plutonium, it has enjoyed a surprisingly long-lived monopoly on nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Now, with the nuclear resurgence of Iran, that monopoly could end, with consequences to the region that are difficult to foresee.
> 
> The International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed El Baradei regards Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons (Mohamed El Baradei (27 July 2004). Since the Gulf War in 1991, much attention has been lavished on an alleged threat from Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, In 2002 blame on Pakistan (Dr.AQKhan WMD ring) to run a nuclear weapons black market and transfer of technology to Libya and North Korea. *Now tunes is turned 2ward Iran while the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored.* It is now firmly Israel under the thrall of rightwing neocon nutjobs.The current Israeli government is pursuing a path of military craziness in the hopes of drawing the US into its own war.
> 
> Israel put defenses around its Dimona nuclear reactor on "red alert" 30 times as worries grew that Syria would avenge Israel's September 2007 attack on a suspected nuclear site in Syria. Since World War II, strikes to halt nuclear activities have taken place exclusively in the Middle East: Iraq was struck by Iran (1980), Israel (1981) the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad in 1981. That strike, which destroyed the facility in under 100 seconds, was completed without Israeli losses and checked Iraqi ambitions for a nuclear weapons programme. and the US (1991, 2003), while Iraq bombed Iran (1984 to 1987) and Israel (1991). But raids never generated significant radiological consequences, because plants were under construction, contained inconsequential amounts of nuclear material, had radioactive elements removed prior to the attack, or because the attacker missed the mark. With the CTBT in limbo and the NPT being steadily eroded; with North Korea's bomb test and Iran's nuclear plans.


----------



## Heinz89

nirreich said:


> There is not a single word of truth in the above post:
> 
> "It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.
> 
> *This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).*


 Well said mate well said!!!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Run Run Run away, always on the run.



*As I said the israeli WMDs are the greatest threat to peace!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *As I said the israeli WMDs are the greatest threat to peace!*



Now that you said it with bold and bigger fonts your are much more convincing.

I take it all back


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Now that you said it with bold and large letters your are much more convinsable.



*Convinsable!!!!!!!!! You couldn't even spell it correctly. Soon the world focus will be on the demons at Demona.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Convinsable!!!!!!!!! You couldn't even spell it correctly. Soon the world focus will be on the demons at Demona.*



Oh, the troll finally found something to be happy about after all his anti-Semite crap was brushed away. Well enjoy your pathetic gloat, there is not anything else for you to be happy about.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Oh, the troll finally found something to be happy about after all his anti-Semite crap was brushed away. Well enjoy your pathetic gloat, there is not anything else for you to be happy about.



*Shylock, how could you expect us to be happy when israel points its weapons of mass murder at Palestinian, Iranian and Arab children and women?*


----------



## Heinz89

T-Rex said:


> *Shylock, how could you expect us to be happy when israel points its weapons of mass murder at Palestinian, Iranian and Arab children and women?*



This won't happen if Palestinians accept jew homeland at first place


----------



## T-Rex

Heinz89 said:


> This won't happen if Palestinians accept jew homeland at first place



*This would not have happened if the nazis like you had not kicked the Jews out of Europe!*


----------



## Heinz89

T-Rex said:


> *This would not have happened if the nazis like you had not kicked the Jews out of Europe!*



Oh.... now I'm the nazi... why don't u tell that ur muslim brothers who invaded the Jewish territory in 700s.... Is it right to invade someone else land and then claim it as yours????


----------



## T-Rex

Heinz89 said:


> Oh.... now I'm the nazi... why don't u tell that ur muslim brothers who invaded the Jewish territory in 700s.... Is it right to invade someone else land and then claim it as yours????



*Do you want to say that your great Fuerer did not send the European Jews to the gas chambers? Good try but it's not working!*


----------



## Heinz89

T-Rex said:


> *Do you want to say that your great Fuerer did not send the European Jews to the gas chambers? Good try but it's not working!*



Fuerer is dead why try to be like him??????


----------



## T-Rex

*Nuclear Israel revisited*
To have or not to have nuclear weapons is a question of human security and not European privilege.
Joseph Massad, 10 Nov 2011 14:30


NEW YORK, NEW YORK - How many times must this story be retold? It is common knowledge in the United States, in Europe, in the Arab World, indeed in the entire world. The international press has been reporting on it since the late 1960s. The historical details of the story are also well known. In 1955, President Dwight Eisenhower gave Israel its first small nuclear reactor at Nahal Sorek; in 1964, the French built for Israel its much larger and major Dimona nuclear reactor in the Naqab (Negev) Desert; in 1965, Israel stole 200 pounds of weapons-grade uranium from the United States through its spies at the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation company in Pennsylvania; in 1968, Israel hijacked a Liberian ship in international waters and stole its 200-ton shipment of yellowcake. Israel has possessed nuclear bombs since the early 1970s. Despite official US denials, Golda Meir, the fourth prime minister of Israel, reportedly prepared to launch 13 nuclear bombs on Syria and Egypt in 1973 and was stopped short of committing this genocidal act when Henry Kissinger gave Israel the most massive weapons airlift in history at the time to reverse the course of the 1973 war (as Time Magazine reported the story). Israel has had an ongoing nuclear weapons collaboration with the South African Apartheid regime for decades, which only ended with the collapse of the regime in 1994. 

Since then, experts have estimated that Israel has upwards of 400 nuclear devices, including thermonuclear weapons with megaton range, as well as neutron bombs, tactical nuclear weapons, and suitcase nukes. It also has the missile delivery systems to launch them with a reach of 11,500km (which can reach beyond Iran). Israel also has submarines that are capable of launching nuclear attacks as well as jet fighters that can deliver Israels nuclear cargo.

Israel has diligently prevented its neighbours from even acquiring nuclear reactors for peaceful purposes. It violated international law by bombing the Iraqi French-built Osirak nuclear reactor still under construction in 1981 in an unprovoked raid even though the reactor was going to be used, according to the French and Iraqi governments, for peaceful scientific purposes. Israel also bombed what intelligence reports allege was a North Korean nuclear reactor under construction in Syria in 2007. Israels Mossad has also been linked to the assassination of numerous Egyptian, Iraqi, and Iranian nuclear scientists over the decades. Israel continues to refuse to join the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and refuses to allow members of the International Atomic Energy Commission to inspect its Dimona reactor.

Israel, a predatory and aggressive country that has consistently launched wars on all its neighbours since its establishment, expelled hundreds of thousands of people, created millions of Palestinian, Lebanese, and Egyptian refugees, murdered tens of thousands of civilians and used internationally-banned weapons (from napalm to phosphorous bombs, to name the most notorious cases), continues to occupy the Palestinian territories and the Palestinian people in violation of international law, is governed by a foundational anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racist state ideology to which all its leaders, governing structures, and institutions adhere, as does its popular and political culture and a variety of its laws. Indeed, Israel not only consistently launches wars against its neighbours but also urges world powers to invade these neighbours as well, and in the meanwhile sponsors anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racist campaigns of hatred in the United States and across Europe in addition to integrating such racism in its school and university curricula and much of its cultural production.

Racist policies

Israels protector, the United States, is the only country on Earth that has ever deliberately used nuclear bombs against civilian populations and continues to defend this decision 66 years after this genocidal act, and inculcates its population, in its school curricula and in the media, to defend it. The United States has also made certain that Israels nuclear arsenal would not ever be discussed at the UN Security Council despite persistent proposals over the decades to discuss it. Indeed, the United States insistence on keeping Israels nuclear capability an open "secret" is engineered, among other things, to keep United States aid to Israel flowing, especially as a key legal condition of receiving such aid is for recipient countries to be signatories to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Israel refuses to sign.

Yet the United States and Israel, which have been the major threats to world peace and indeed the major global warmongers since World War II, insist on telling the world that Iran, a country whose current regime never invaded any country (but was rather invaded by Saddams Iraq in 1981 at the behest of the dictatorial ruling Gulf oil-rich families and their US and French sponsors), is a threat to world peace were it to possess a nuclear device.

The racist policies of the United States as to who should get to possess nuclear weapons and who should not (according to racial criteria of whether they are European or of European stock or not) aside, it must be made clear that the extent to which there is a nuclear race in the Middle East, it is one fostered by Israels warmongering and its possession of such weapons of mass destruction. If the Middle East is to be a nuclear-free zone, then the international effort to rid it of such weapons must begin with Israel, which is the only country in the region that possesses these weapons, and not with Iran who may or may not be developing them.

The racism of the Obama administration against Arabs and Muslims clearly knows no limits, but for the people of the Middle East (Arabs, Turks, and Iranians), Obamas racist criteria are not terribly persuasive. To have or not to have nuclear weapons is a question of human security, as far as the people of the region are concerned, and not one of European racial privilege. While the US may not fear Israeli nukes, Israels neighbouring countries and their civilian populations have for decades been (and continue to be) terrorised by them; and for good reason. Once Obama learns this lesson, the people of the region will reconsider US credibility about its alleged concern about nuclear proliferation.


----------



## Heinz89

Evan if Israel has nukes is it right to destroy that country??? Is that how you solve problems in Bangladesh????


----------



## T-Rex

Heinz89 said:


> Evan if Israel has nukes is it right to destroy that country??? Is that how you solve problems in Bangladesh????



*Who is talking about destroying israel, we're talking about destroying the WMD factory at Dimona and for the sake of peace. I hear uncle sam and its minions want to destroy Iran for trying to have a nuclear deterrent against the israeli nukes, now, that's not fair.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Who is talking about destroying israel, we're talking about destroying the WMD factory at Dimona and for the sake of peace. I hear uncle sam and its minions want to destroy Iran for trying to have a nuclear deterrent against the israeli nukes, now, that's not fair.*



It is so "unfair" to deprive dictatorial regimes like in Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Iran threatens to destroy Israel and not vice versa. According to the nonsense your posted Israel has nukes since the 1960's but never used them or threatened to use them. Iran plans to use nukes in order to eliminate Israel - that is what they are saying! Why Iran needs nuclear deterrence when Israel never had any conflict with it or ever threatened it in the past?

So, you entire argument about the need of Iran for a nuclear deterrent is so stupid that it can only come from someone anti-Semite like you who has no understanding what so ever on the current situation. 

Your sense of logic and morality is completely flawed, and it stands in parallel to the amount of crap you continue to post here. 

And do not be modest - your real intentions are to eliminate Israel, hopefully by depriving it from any ability to protect itself from the countries and people in the barbaric region which is known as the Middle East.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> It is so "unfair" to deprive dictatorial regimes like in Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Iran threatens to destroy Israel and not vice versa. According to the nonsense your posted Israel has nukes since the 1960's but never used them or threatened to use them. Iran plans to use nukes in order to eliminate Israel - that is what they are saying! Why Iran needs nuclear deterrence when Israel never had any conflict with it or ever threatened it in the past?
> 
> So, you entire argument about the need of Iran for a nuclear deterrent is so stupid that it can only come from someone anti-Semite like you who has no understanding what so ever on the current situation.
> 
> Your sense of logic and morality is completely flawed, and it stands in parallel to the amount of crap you continue to post here.
> 
> And do not be modest - your real intentions are to eliminate Israel, hopefully by depriving it from any ability to protect itself from the countries and people in the barbaric region which is known as the Middle East.



*Why No Objection
To Israel's WMD?*
By Hassan Tahsin
Palestine Chronicle
6-24-3


"Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa."



CAIRO -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has spelled out clearly his reasons for accepting the Middle East road map with 14 reservations. During the Aqaba summit on June 6, he said: 'Permanent peace requires permanent security. This permanent security will bring about permanent peace to Israel.' To accept peace on Sharonís terms would make the proposed Palestinian state a mockery in the service of Israelís security.

The most dangerous thing is that Israel is allowed to possess all kinds of weapons of mass destruction while Arab countries are denied these weapons under the pretext that Israel is under threat.

Israel has said that it is not yet time to look at its nuclear arsenal and weapons of mass destruction because it has not yet attained permanent security and peace.

As a result, Israel has become a depot for nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threatening the security of Arab, Asian and European countries. Does Israel require this large arsenal of banned weapons? The French constructed the Dimona nuclear reactor and produced enriched uranium. Israel was ready to produce its first nuclear bomb as early as 1965.

In March 1969, Moshe Dayan celebrated the birth of the Israeli nuclear state and the Israeli nuclear scientist Vannunu has acknowledged that his country was in 6th position in the nuclear club in the 1980s. According to one estimate, Israel possesses at least 100 nuclear bombs.

Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa. In 1994, US President Bill Clinton approved nine supercomputers to meet the needs of Israelís nuclear program. Informed sources have estimated that Israel has 100 to 200 nuclear warheads, but another report put the figure at more than 500.

Quoting Vannunu, American journalist Seymour Hersh says in his book that Israel possesses about 300 nuclear warheads. He also says that he has got information indicating Israel possesses hundreds of nitrogen bombs. Reports have confirmed that Israel has various types of nuclear weapons including nuclear bombs which could be dropped from planes, missile warheads, in addition to 25 hydrogen bombs.

Israel also holds an unspecified numbers of tactical weapons.

At least three international sources have confirmed that Israel had not only produced nuclear mines but spread them in various regions at different periods of the Arab-Israeli conflict, especially in Golan and Naqab during the military confrontation with Egypt in October 1973 and in January 1991.

The question is: Who can ask the international community to disarm Israel of its mass destructive weapons?


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Why No Objection
> To Israel's WMD?*
> By Hassan Tahsin
> Palestine Chronicle
> 6-24-3
> 
> 
> "Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa."
> 
> 
> 
> CAIRO -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has spelled out clearly his reasons for accepting the Middle East road map with 14 reservations. During the Aqaba summit on June 6, he said: 'Permanent peace requires permanent security. This permanent security will bring about permanent peace to Israel.' To accept peace on Sharonís terms would make the proposed Palestinian state a mockery in the service of Israelís security.
> 
> The most dangerous thing is that Israel is allowed to possess all kinds of weapons of mass destruction while Arab countries are denied these weapons under the pretext that Israel is under threat.
> 
> Israel has said that it is not yet time to look at its nuclear arsenal and weapons of mass destruction because it has not yet attained permanent security and peace.
> 
> As a result, Israel has become a depot for nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threatening the security of Arab, Asian and European countries. Does Israel require this large arsenal of banned weapons? The French constructed the Dimona nuclear reactor and produced enriched uranium. Israel was ready to produce its first nuclear bomb as early as 1965.
> 
> In March 1969, Moshe Dayan celebrated the birth of the Israeli nuclear state and the Israeli nuclear scientist Vannunu has acknowledged that his country was in 6th position in the nuclear club in the 1980s. According to one estimate, Israel possesses at least 100 nuclear bombs.
> 
> Apart from two plants in Dimona, Israel established a number of other nuclear plants in Nahal Suryak, south of Tel Aviv in 1958 and in Raishon Liston and Haifa. In 1994, US President Bill Clinton approved nine supercomputers to meet the needs of Israelís nuclear program. Informed sources have estimated that Israel has 100 to 200 nuclear warheads, but another report put the figure at more than 500.
> 
> Quoting Vannunu, American journalist Seymour Hersh says in his book that Israel possesses about 300 nuclear warheads. He also says that he has got information indicating Israel possesses hundreds of nitrogen bombs. Reports have confirmed that Israel has various types of nuclear weapons including nuclear bombs which could be dropped from planes, missile warheads, in addition to 25 hydrogen bombs.
> 
> Israel also holds an unspecified numbers of tactical weapons.
> 
> At least three international sources have confirmed that Israel had not only produced nuclear mines but spread them in various regions at different periods of the Arab-Israeli conflict, especially in Golan and Naqab during the military confrontation with Egypt in October 1973 and in January 1991.
> 
> The question is: Who can ask the international community to disarm Israel of its mass destructive weapons?



Again, trolling with cut-and-paste.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Again, trolling with cut-and-paste.



*Truth is most distasteful to a zionist like you, it seems you don't have much to support your lies other than fabricated reports published by Mossad.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Truth is most distasteful to a zionist like you, it seems you don't have much to support your lies other than fabricated reports published by Mossad.*



What are you babbling about?! I clearly explained why all your posting and arguments are so stupid and illogic and you could only troll and scream about Zionism and Nazism and whatever.

My little anti-Semite - your evasions are still pathetic as they were 30 pages ago of this thread. Why do not try for a change to say the truth and reply directly to the arguments which completely portray your posts as nonsense.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What are you babbling about?! I clearly explained why all your posting and arguments are so stupid and illogic and you could only troll and scream about Zionism and Nazism and whatever.
> 
> My little anti-Semite - your evasions are still pathetic as they were 30 pages ago of this thread. Why do not try for a change to say the truth and reply directly to the arguments which completely portray your posts as nonsense.



*My thick skinned zionist, your lies cannot hide the threat from the israeli WMDs!*


----------



## ramu

T-Rex said:


> My thick skinned zionist, your lies cannot hide the threat from the israeli WMDs!


Why do you make every post of yours bold. No one here has a seeing problem. Also are you really a Bangladeshi ? You sound to me more like a Pakistani. Well same difference, I guess. Pre and Post 1971.


----------



## T-Rex

ramu said:


> Why do you make every post of yours bold. No one here has a seeing problem. Also are you really a Bangladeshi ? You sound to me more like a Pakistani. Well same difference, I guess. Pre and Post 1971.


*
What else can a troll say? By your own logic you must be an israeli?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *My thick skinned zionist, your lies cannot hide the threat from the israeli WMDs!*


 
What threat? On whom? What kind?

Even though you are anti-Semite and intellectually challenged the least you can do is to explain clearly your arguments so we can all know how stupid they are.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What threat? On whom? What kind?
> 
> Even though you are anti-Semite and intellectually challenged the least you can do is to explain clearly your arguments so we can all know how stupid they are.



*Here it is shylock:*

Nuclear Threat is from Israel NOT Iran. - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Here it is shylock:*
> 
> Nuclear Threat is from Israel NOT Iran. - YouTube



China has even more nuclear reactors and a declared nuclear weapons programme and it is very close to Bangladesh. India with its nuclear weapons has a border with Bangladesh. Why they are not a threat?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> China has even more nuclear reactors and a declared nuclear weapons programme and it is very close to Bangladesh. India with its nuclear weapons has a border with Bangladesh. Why they are not a threat?


*
India is a threat but China is not. China does not have any intention of occupying any neighbour so it cannot be a threat. Anyway, israel's WMDs are the greatest threat because with these weapons israel wants to continue its illegal occupation and expand illegal settlements..*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> India is a threat but China is not. China does not have any intention of occupying any neighbour so it cannot be a threat. Anyway, israel's WMDs are the greatest threat because with these weapons israel wants to continue its illegal occupation and expand illegal settlements..*



If that is the case then why Israel is ready to establish an independent Palestinian state? Why Israel offered twice (2000 and 2008) to withdraw from more than 90% of the West Bank? Why Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and evacuated all its settlements from there? Why Israel withdrew completely in the 1980's from the Sinai Peninsula (bigger than all of Israel) and evacuated all its settlements from there too? Why Israel completely withdrew from South Lebanon in 2000? 

And Why India is a threat to Bangladesh? Because of India Bangladesh is now independent country and not part of Pakistan.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If that is the case then why Israel is ready to establish an independent Palestinian state? Why Israel offered twice (2000 and 2008) to withdraw from more than 90% of the West Bank? Why Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and evacuated all its settlements from there? Why Israel withdrew completely in the 1980's from the Sinai Peninsula (bigger than all of Israel) and evacuated all its settlements from there too? Why Israel completely withdrew from South Lebanon in 2000?



*Israel never wants to establish an independent Palestine, it's a great bluff. Israel's WMDs are designed to ensure that no one can stop the israeli hegemony and occupation. So, it is safe to say that the israeli WMDs are one of the biggest barriers to peace in the ME*



nirreich said:


> And Why India is a threat to Bangladesh? Because of India Bangladesh is now independent country and not part of Pakistan.



*Shylock, Vietnam also gained independence because of China's help, but does that stop Vietnam from seeing China as a threat? Why should it be different for india Bangladesh relation? It cannot be different for india just because india happens to be israel's trusted ally.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Israel never wants to establish an independent Palestine, it's a great bluff. Israel's WMDs are designed to ensure that no one can stop the israeli hegemony and occupation. So, it is safe to say that the israeli WMDs are one of the biggest barriers to peace in the ME*
> 
> 
> 
> *Shylock, Vietnam also gained independence because of China's help, but does that stop Vietnam from seeing China as a threat? Why should it be different for india Bangladesh relation? It cannot be different for india just because india happens to be israel's trusted ally.*




You continue to ignore the illogic in your argument: how come a country with hegemonic aspirations withdraw from larger territories which are twice as big as its current one? 

You should consider the possibility that you are completely and absolutely do not know what your are talking about.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You continue to ignore the illogic in your argument: how come a country with hegemonic aspirations withdraw from larger territories which are twice as big as its current one?
> 
> You should consider the possibility that you are completely and absolutely do not know what your are talking about.


*
For forty years israel claimed that it did not possess WMDs but we know know that israel was lying. Cunning israelis always think that the world does not know what it is doing. Israel has started the nuclear arms race in ME and that is the hard truth.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> For forty years israel claimed that it did not possess WMDs but we know know that israel was lying. Cunning israelis always think that the world does not know what it is doing. Israel has started the nuclear arms race in ME and that is the hard truth.*



The hard truth is that you as usual avoid answering any question about your argument, I guess because you do not have an answer and you are too afraid to admit it.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The hard truth is that you as usual avoid answering any question about your argument, I guess because you do not have an answer and you are too afraid to admit it.



*Pay attention, israel has started the nuclear arms race in ME, just as the US started it in the world.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Pay attention, israel has started the nuclear arms race in ME, just as the US started it in the world.*



No connection what so ever between these two events: different factors, different timing, different considerations. what it is got to do with the territory Israel withdrew from in the last 40 years?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> No connection what so ever between these two events: different factors, different timing, different considerations. what it is got to do with the territory Israel withdrew from in the last 40 years?


*
We are not talking about stolen property, we're talking about nuclear arms race started by israel.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> We are not talking about stolen property, we're talking about nuclear arms race started by israel.*



Go back and see that you claimed that Israel wants to use its WMD in order to hold territories and I just explained to you that your argument is not connected to reality. Now, as usual, you changed your argument and talking about nuclear arms race, but again reality is completely different: except of two attempts (Iraq and Syria) other Arab state did not develop nukes since Israel was considered as a nuclear state in the 1960's! 

If you want to prevent nuclear arms race in the ME, pressurise Iran to dismantle its nuclear programme: As exposed in Wikileaks, Iran's nuclear ambitions are the main reason why Arab countries consider to acquire nukes.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Go back and see that you claimed that Israel wants to use its WMD in order to hold territories and I just explained to you that your argument is not connected to reality. Now, as usual, you changed your argument and talking about nuclear arms race, but again reality is completely different: except of two attempts (Iraq and Syria) other Arab state did not develop nukes since Israel was considered as a nuclear state in the 1960's!
> 
> If you want to prevent nuclear arms race in the ME, pressurise Iran to dismantle its nuclear programme: As exposed in Wikileaks, Iran's nuclear ambitions are the main reason why Arab countries consider to acquire nukes.



*Kingdom denounces Israeli intransigence*


By GHAZANFAR ALI KHAN & ABDUL HANNAN TAGO | ARAB NEWS

Published: Dec 5, 2011 01:09 Updated: Dec 5, 2011 01:29

RIYADH: Chief of General Intelligence Prince Muqrin on Sunday blasted Israeli leaders for their intransigence and criticized what he described as an isolationist policy.

*He criticized the double standard of Tel Aviv with regard to Palestine and on weapons of mass destruction. *He urged Israelis to change their approach to negotiations with Palestinians for the sake of peace and security in the region.

&#8220;Security and economic issues are of major concern to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), which as a bloc has emerged stronger to benefit the region,&#8221; said Prince Muqrin at the second session of the high-profile &#8220;Gulf and Globe Conference&#8221; in Riyadh.

The session was chaired by Abdulmohsen Al-Akkas, former minister of social affairs.

Referring to the two-day conference, Prince Muqrin said the event was particularly significant in terms of the GCC states&#8217; drive toward joint action in the areas of security, stability and the economic integration. Prince Muqrin also spoke about other regional issues with special reference to Iran and Israel. He said: &#8220;The position of the Kingdom on Iran&#8217;s nuclear program was clear and every nation has the right to have a peaceful nuclear energy program.&#8221;


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Kingdom denounces Israeli intransigence*
> 
> 
> By GHAZANFAR ALI KHAN & ABDUL HANNAN TAGO | ARAB NEWS
> 
> Published: Dec 5, 2011 01:09 Updated: Dec 5, 2011 01:29
> 
> RIYADH: Chief of General Intelligence Prince Muqrin on Sunday blasted Israeli leaders for their intransigence and criticized what he described as an isolationist policy.
> 
> *He criticized the double standard of Tel Aviv with regard to Palestine and on weapons of mass destruction. *He urged Israelis to change their approach to negotiations with Palestinians for the sake of peace and security in the region.
> 
> &#8220;Security and economic issues are of major concern to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), which as a bloc has emerged stronger to benefit the region,&#8221; said Prince Muqrin at the second session of the high-profile &#8220;Gulf and Globe Conference&#8221; in Riyadh.
> 
> The session was chaired by Abdulmohsen Al-Akkas, former minister of social affairs.
> 
> Referring to the two-day conference, Prince Muqrin said the event was particularly significant in terms of the GCC states&#8217; drive toward joint action in the areas of security, stability and the economic integration. Prince Muqrin also spoke about other regional issues with special reference to Iran and Israel. He said: &#8220;The position of the Kingdom on Iran&#8217;s nuclear program was clear and every nation has the right to have a peaceful nuclear energy program.&#8221;



So what? KSA condemn Israel, what a surprise.

KSA is threatened from Iran and not from Israel, do you argue differently? So, Iran with nukes and *not* Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race in the ME.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *Kingdom denounces Israeli intransigence*
> 
> 
> By GHAZANFAR ALI KHAN & ABDUL HANNAN TAGO | ARAB NEWS
> 
> Published: Dec 5, 2011 01:09 Updated: Dec 5, 2011 01:29
> 
> RIYADH: Chief of General Intelligence Prince Muqrin on Sunday blasted Israeli leaders for their intransigence and criticized what he described as an isolationist policy.
> 
> *He criticized the double standard of Tel Aviv with regard to Palestine and on weapons of mass destruction. *He urged Israelis to change their approach to negotiations with Palestinians for the sake of peace and security in the region.
> 
> Security and economic issues are of major concern to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), which as a bloc has emerged stronger to benefit the region, said Prince Muqrin at the second session of the high-profile Gulf and Globe Conference in Riyadh.
> 
> The session was chaired by Abdulmohsen Al-Akkas, former minister of social affairs.
> 
> Referring to the two-day conference, Prince Muqrin said the event was particularly significant in terms of the GCC states drive toward joint action in the areas of security, stability and the economic integration. Prince Muqrin also spoke about other regional issues with special reference to Iran and Israel. He said: The position of the Kingdom on Irans nuclear program was clear and every nation has the right to have a peaceful nuclear energy program.



So what? KSA condemn Israel, what a surprise.

KSA is threatened from Iran and not from Israel, do you argue differently? So, Iran with nukes and *not* Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race in the ME.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So what? KSA condemn Israel, what a surprise.
> 
> KSA is threatened from Iran and not from Israel, do you argue differently? So, Iran with nukes and *not* Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race in the ME.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> So what? KSA condemn Israel, what a surprise.
> 
> KSA is threatened from Iran and not from Israel, do you argue differently? So, Iran with nukes and *not* Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race in the ME.



*All the hypocrites of the world unanimously agree that "Iran with nukes and not Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race." Shylock, you're their hero.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *All the hypocrites of the world unanimously agree that "Iran with nukes and not Israel with nukes will lead to a nuclear arms race." Shylock, you're their hero.*




I guess it is just a coincidence and only just now, in delay of 50 years, Arab countries realised that they are "threatened" by Israel's WMD and began thinking about developing nuclear weapons. They should thank you for reminding them. 

You just ignore the real world. It is very simple equation than even an anti-Semite like yourself can comprehend: Israel has been considered as nuclear country since the 1960's and until today, 50 years later, non of the "threatened" Arab countries have nukes. Iran develops nukes and the Arab countries (Egypt, KSA and the Persian Gulf states) consider developing nukes.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I guess it is just a coincidence and only just now, in delay of 50 years, Arab countries realised that they are "threatened" by Israel's WMD and began thinking about developing nuclear weapons. They should thank you for reminding them.
> 
> You just ignore the real world. It is very simple equation than even an anti-Semite like yourself can comprehend: Israel has been considered as nuclear country since the 1960's and until today, 50 years later, non of the "threatened" Arab countries have nukes. Iran develops nukes and the Arab countries (Egypt, KSA and the Persian Gulf states) consider developing nukes.



*Listen zionist nazi, israel's nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace, they they built for terrorism.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Listen zionist nazi, israel's nukes pose the greatest threat to world peace, they they built for terrorism.*



You cannot handle any logical argument, so you run away to your mantras.

You cannot prove your lies, so they are just lies, no matter how many times you repeat them.


----------



## T-Rex

*Senior MP Calls Israel's N. Arsenal "Main Threat to World"*

TEHRAN (FNA)- A prominent member of the Iranian parliament blamed the International Atomic Energy Agency chief for expressing alleged concerns about Iran's peaceful nuclear program while ignoring the major threat posed by Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal to global peace and security.


Speaking to FNA, member of the parliament's National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Parviz Sorouri pointed to the recent report of IAEA Chief Yukiya Amano on Iran and blasted him for sticking to stories and ignoring realities, including Israel's military nuclear capabilities.

"Some alleged studies are the basis of Amano's claims about Iran, while with regard to Israel there are not allegations but clear and proved realities," Sorouri said.

"Israel has designed and stockpiled large numbers of warheads and is a great threat to the international community," the lawmaker stated.

He rejected Amano's concerns about Iran's nuclear activities while Iran is an NPT member state and has fulfilled all its undertakings under the treaty.

"If Amano seeks to ease concerns of the international community, he had better listen to the angry slogans chanted by the people of the world, particularly the region, against the occupying Zionist regime," Sorouri noted.

Israel is believed to be the sole possessor of nuclear arms in the Middle East with over 200 ready-to-launch warheads in its stockpile.

Amano released a US-dictated report on Iran last week, in a move seen by many, even in the West, as part of Washington and Israel's efforts to find a new pretext for intensifying pressure on Tehran.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Senior MP Calls Israel's N. Arsenal "Main Threat to World"*
> 
> TEHRAN (FNA)- A prominent member of the Iranian parliament blamed the International Atomic Energy Agency chief for expressing alleged concerns about Iran's peaceful nuclear program while ignoring the major threat posed by Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal to global peace and security.
> 
> 
> Speaking to FNA, member of the parliament's National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Parviz Sorouri pointed to the recent report of IAEA Chief Yukiya Amano on Iran and blasted him for sticking to stories and ignoring realities, including Israel's military nuclear capabilities.
> 
> "Some alleged studies are the basis of Amano's claims about Iran, while with regard to Israel there are not allegations but clear and proved realities," Sorouri said.
> 
> "Israel has designed and stockpiled large numbers of warheads and is a great threat to the international community," the lawmaker stated.
> 
> He rejected Amano's concerns about Iran's nuclear activities while Iran is an NPT member state and has fulfilled all its undertakings under the treaty.
> 
> "If Amano seeks to ease concerns of the international community, he had better listen to the angry slogans chanted by the people of the world, particularly the region, against the occupying Zionist regime," Sorouri noted.
> 
> Israel is believed to be the sole possessor of nuclear arms in the Middle East with over 200 ready-to-launch warheads in its stockpile.
> 
> Amano released a US-dictated report on Iran last week, in a move seen by many, even in the West, as part of Washington and Israel's efforts to find a new pretext for intensifying pressure on Tehran.



Wow, a sensation - Iran condemn Israel! I do not know what we do without you.


----------



## T-Rex

US helping to keep Israel&#39;s dangerous WMD out of the spotlight at IAEA conference - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> US helping to keep Israel's dangerous WMD out of the spotlight at IAEA conference - YouTube



Trolling with a link.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Trolling with a link.



*A zionist nazi has no reply, so he cries 'troll'!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgOPE8ubQwU&feature=related


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *A zionist nazi has no reply, so he cries 'troll'!*
> 
> BBC - Evidence Israel&#39;s nuclear weapons(Banned Censored)5of5 - YouTube



I am still waiting to your reply to my arguments, but you ran away like the coward you are, my little anti-Semite.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I am still waiting to your reply to my arguments, but you ran away like the coward you are, my little anti-Semite.



israeli illegal nuclear facilities need to be inspected! - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> israeli illegal nuclear facilities need to be inspected! - YouTube



Run run, run away, run run, always on the run


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Run run, run away, run run, always on the run



*Everybody can see who's running and here's more to make a zionist cry.*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dqb_95kVMA&feature=related


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Everybody can see who's running and here's more to make a zionist cry.*
> 
> Support Israel You Won't After This - YouTube



You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You cannot handle any of my arguments, so you continue to act like a coward. Run run, run away.



Why does the USA ignore Israel&#39;s Terrorism 1/3 - YouTube

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

ZIONISTS WON&#39;T LET YOU SEE THIS ON YOUR TV - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Why does the USA ignore Israel's Terrorism 1/3 - YouTube



You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

Jimmy Carter unveils truth about Israel - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Jimmy Carter unveils truth about Israel - YouTube



You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.
> 
> Run run, run away.



He reveals the Truth about Zionists - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> He reveals the Truth about Zionists - YouTube



Another sensation! What next? Let me guess - Hitler speaks against the Jews.

You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Another sensation! What next? Let me guess - Hitler speaks against the Jews.
> 
> You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.
> 
> Run run, run away.



Zionist Psychopaths - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Zionist Psychopaths - YouTube



You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.
> 
> Run run, run away.



israeli illegal nuclear facilities need to be inspected! - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.
> 
> Run run, run away.



israel refuses IAEA inspections of its nuclear facility . - YouTube


----------



## nirreich

At least be original and change your links. 

You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.

Run run, run away.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> At least be original and change your links.
> 
> You cannot handle any of my arguments and the fact the you are just telling lies, so you continue to act like a coward. All your ridiculous links will not change it.
> 
> Run run, run away.



*Shylock you're a disgrace to human race, you have no shame, no humanity, no truth! All you have is lies and deceit, those faces in the links, they are saying it.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Shylock you're a disgrace to human race, you have no shame, no humanity, no truth! All you have is lies and deceit.*



So you run out of stupid links? Try something refreshing and reply to my arguments instead of spreading lies and acting like a coward.

---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *Shylock you're a disgrace to human race, you have no shame, no humanity, no truth! All you have is lies and deceit.*



So you run out of stupid links? Try something refreshing and reply to my arguments instead of spreading lies and acting like a coward.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So you run out of stupid links? Try something refreshing and reply to my arguments instead of spreading lies and acting like a coward.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> So you run out of stupid links? Try something refreshing and reply to my arguments instead of spreading lies and acting like a coward.



*How many times have you repeated your lies? Have you counted?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *How many times have you repeated your lies? Have you counted?*



How many times have you run away like a coward from discussion? Have you counted?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> How many times have you run away like a coward from discussion? Have you counted?



*Must you act like a monkey while the world faces the threat from the israeli WMDs?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Must you act like a monkey while the world faces the threat from the israeli WMDs?*



The gravest threat to this world is people like you that deceit is in their nature and they never criticise themselves, but only take the easiest course and blame others.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The gravest threat to this world is people like you that deceit is in their nature and they never criticise themselves, but only take the easiest course and blame others.


 
*
Jimmy Carter and many of those peaceful Rabbis think otherwise! They think that the israeli WMDS are the real threat.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Jimmy Carter and many of those peaceful Rabbis think otherwise! They think that the israeli WMDS are the real threat.*



So what? How long will you continue to hide behind every nonsense published in the internet about Israel instead of confronting real arguments?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So what? How long will you continue to hide behind any nonsense which is published in the internet about Israel instead of confronting real arguments?



*So what? So, you cannot tell your *** from your mouth! Please don't be offended if I sound rude, actually I'm your well wisher.*


----------



## ashokdeiva

T-Rex said:


> *So what? So, you cannot tell your *** from your mouth! Please don't be offended if I sound rude, actually I'm your well wisher.*


WMD is a threat to every one, there is no proff that explicitly accuses the state of Isreal for possessing a N weapon. may be if they have, in case Iran develops one. then for sure MAD will prevent them from using it at each other.
The fear of mutual annialation will make sure that these weapons never surface.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *So what? So, you cannot tell your *** from your mouth! Please don't be offended if I sound rude, actually I'm your well wisher.*



It is the opinion of Anti-Zionist Rabbi and a former US President with moral problems. Why should I be impressed?

Unlike you, I am not a coward who run from an argument while collecting rubbish from the internet.


----------



## T-Rex

ashokdeiva said:


> WMD is a threat to every one, there is no proff that explicitly accuses the state of Isreal for possessing a N weapon. may be if they have, in case Iran develops one. then for sure MAD will prevent them from using it at each other.
> The fear of mutual annialation will make sure that these weapons never surface.



Mordechai Vanunu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*
Looks more 'explicit' to me than what israel has against Iran!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Mordechai Vanunu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> *
> Looks more 'explicit' to me than what israel has against Iran!*



More rubbish, continue running.


----------



## ashokdeiva

T-Rex said:


> Mordechai Vanunu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> *
> Looks more 'explicit' to me than what israel has against Iran!*


so now based on WIKIPEDIA, we are about to take decessions, is WIKI regarded as the worst when it comes to reliability in PDF.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> It is the opinion of Anti-Zionist Rabbi and a former US President with moral problems. Why should I be impressed?
> 
> Unlike you, I am not a coward who run from an argument while collecting rubbish from the internet.


*
Why do you fart with your mouth? Behave like a human being, don't you know that the zionist nazis are not humans? You speak of moral problems of others when WMDs are sticking out of your rear end. *


----------



## T-Rex

ashokdeiva said:


> so now based on WIKIPEDIA, we are about to take decessions, is WIKI regarded as the worst when it comes to reliability in PDF.


*
WIKIPEDIA is a thousand times more credible than 'bushy' evidence that we saw before the invasion of Iraq.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Why do you fart with your mouth? Behave like a human being, don't you know that the zionist nazis are not humans? You speak of moral problems of others when WMDs are sticking out of your rear end. *



First you use deceit and lies, then you are trolling and publish rubbish, and now you arrived to the lowest level yet of cursing and slandering.

And all this pathetic behaviour just to run like a coward from a real discussion and from arguments which you cannot handle.


----------



## ashokdeiva

T-Rex said:


> *
> Why do you fart with your mouth? Behave like a human being, don't you know that the zionist nazis are not humans? You speak of moral problems of others when WMDs are sticking out of your rear end. *


now you have lost your cool and you have indulged yourself in low selfesteemed practice of abusing others with profanity.
I suggest as a friend for you to take a break and come back a little later when you have gained your coolness back when replying.
We will have our debate tomorrow.
Mr nirreich, i expect a sane behaviour from you from provoking mr T-Rex to get back some rude reply which is not good for building people to people relationship.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *
> WIKIPEDIA is a thousand times more credible than 'bushy' evidence that we saw before the invasion of Iraq.*


Off topic yet USA's intensions of screwing the world economy starting from ME was sucessfull so far.


----------



## nirreich

ashokdeiva said:


> now you have lost your cool and you have indulged yourself in low selfesteemed practice of abusing others with profanity.
> I suggest as a friend for you to take a break and come back a little later when you have gained your coolness back when replying.
> We will have our debate tomorrow.
> Mr nirreich, i expect a sane behaviour from you from provoking mr T-Rex to get back some rude reply which is not good for building people to people relationship.



I appreciate your intentions, but this is the normal behaviour of the T-Rex, do not expect anything from him.


----------



## ashokdeiva

nirreich said:


> I appreciate your intentions, but this is the normal behaviour of the T-Rex, do not expect anything from him.


I am sure that you do not know him personnaly all we know is the alter ego of each other that we are occupied with when we logginto PDF.


----------



## nirreich

ashokdeiva said:


> I am sure that you do not know him personnaly all we know is the alter ego of each other that we are occupied with when we logginto PDF.



Thank god I do not know him, but this is how he regularly behave in this thread, and after 39 pages I do not expect him to evolve.


----------



## T-Rex

ashokdeiva said:


> now you have lost your cool and you have indulged yourself in low selfesteemed practice of abusing others with profanity.
> I suggest as a friend for you to take a break and come back a little later when you have gained your coolness back when replying.
> We will have our debate tomorrow.
> Mr nirreich, i expect a sane behaviour from you from provoking mr T-Rex to get back some rude reply which is not good for building people to people relationship.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Off topic yet USA's intensions of screwing the world economy starting from ME was sucessfull so far.


*
When the whole world (including US politicians like Jimmy Carter) is saying that israel has nukes you say there's no 'explicit' evidence! Do you think the assessment of people like Carter is based on 'bushy' evidence? Even nazi reich is saying that israel's WMDs are not a threat, it is an admission that israel has WMDs. You're biased so get lost.*


----------



## ashokdeiva

nirreich said:


> Thank god I do not know him, but this is how he regularly behave in this thread, and after 39 pages I do not expect him to evolve.


atleast he has given a break to the debate and has not accused you with the same kind of words that you have used to describe him.
any way lets find friendship among us.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *
> When the whole world (including US politicians like Jimmy Carter) is saying that israel has nukes you say there's no 'explicit' evidence! Do you think the assessment of people like Carter is based on 'bushy' evidence? Even nazi reich is saying that israel's WMDs are not a threat, it is an admission that israel has WMDs. You're biased so get lost.*


NAZI RICHE, i thought they were the history of WW2.
which country is representing them?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Thank god I do not know him, but this is how he regularly behave in this thread, and after 39 pages I do not expect him to evolve.



*Shylock, you haven't yet evolved from being a zionist, have you? Your defence of the israeli WMDs is so unholy that even your Rabbis say that it is despicable!*


----------



## nirreich

ashokdeiva said:


> atleast he has given a break to the debate and has not accused you with the same kind of words that you have used to describe him.
> any way lets find friendship among us.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> NAZI RICHE, i thought they were the history of WW2.
> which country is representing them?



As you can see yourself, he constantly accusing me of Nazism, so calling him an anti-Semite is not so bad. BTW, he has never deny it!

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *Shylock, you haven't yet evolved from being a zionist, have you? Your defence of the israeli WMDs is so unholy that even your Rabbis say that it is despicable!*



As an anti-Semite, you simultaneously run like a coward and lie: These are anti-Zionist Rabbi, so they are hardly "mine".

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ashokdeiva

i thought of finding peace between you two, but now i realize, its in both of your hands to make peace.
both are accusing each other and please read my signature.


----------



## nirreich

ashokdeiva said:


> i thought of finding peace between you two, but now i realize, its in both of your hands to make peace.
> both are accusing each other and please read my signature.



Again, I appreciate your good intentions, but this is hopeless. I am ready for a real and sincere discussion while our troll is here to spread lies and not to discuss anything.


----------



## nirreich

Again, the entire debate in a nutshell:

*T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued:*

Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.

The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.

Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.

It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.

*This is the reply the troll is cowardly running away from in the last 9 pages (!): *

There is not a single word of truth in the above post:

"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.

This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Again, the entire debate in a nutshell:
> 
> *T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued:*
> 
> Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.
> 
> The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.
> 
> Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.
> 
> It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.
> 
> *This is the reply the troll is cowardly running away from in the last 9 pages (!): *
> 
> There is not a single word of truth in the above post:
> 
> "Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> "The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> "To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> "The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> "Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> "It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.
> 
> This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).


*
The main fear in the ME is the nuclear armed terror entity called israel. Of course, the americans and their puppets in the ME like Mubarak do not agree. The ordinary people overwhelmingly view isreal's WMDs as the most dangerous threat and for right reason. One can go and conduct a survey in Egypt after the revolution and the truth will be clear.*


----------



## ashokdeiva

T-Rex said:


> *
> The main fear in the ME is the nuclear armed terror entity called israel. Of course, the americans and their puppets in the ME like Mubarak do not agree. The ordinary people overwhelmingly view isreal's WMDs as the most dangerous threat and for right reason. One can go and conduct a survey in Egypt after the revolution and the truth will be clear.*


come on man, unless a war is provoked by any of the ME states on Isreal there will be no need for the Isreali nukes to surface.
The Yom Kipur war is one such example why the Jews fear that their lively hood might be lost in case they do not posses a n weapon.
Even if they do not have one, the existing fear that they might have one is keeping a lot of anti Isreali countries at bay from launching an attack on their country.


----------



## T-Rex

ashokdeiva said:


> come on man, unless a war is provoked by any of the ME states on Isreal there will be no need for the Isreali nukes to surface.
> The Yom Kipur war is one such example why the Jews fear that their lively hood might be lost in case they do not posses a n weapon.
> Even if they do not have one, the existing fear that they might have one is keeping a lot of anti Isreali countries at bay from launching an attack on their country.



*Why are you deviating from the topic? Are we not taking about threat perception? Look ,you cannot hide the truth forever and what you say for israel can be said for Iran as well! *


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The main fear in the ME is the nuclear armed terror entity called israel. Of course, the americans and their puppets in the ME like Mubarak do not agree. The ordinary people overwhelmingly view isreal's WMDs as the most dangerous threat and for right reason. One can go and conduct a survey in Egypt after the revolution and the truth will be clear.*



You excel even yourself with your nonsense. What the majority of the people in Arab countries think is irrelevant. They are ill-informed, controlled by local media which spread propaganda or by cable channels like Al-Jazeera which are completely biased towards Israel. Moreover, the overwhelming majority are not educated and do not read any critical literature about the situation in the ME or even in their own countries. But for you their unsubstantial opinion represent the "truth".

You are making every excuse just to avoid confronting my arguments, you are pathetic and a coward.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You excel even yourself with your nonsense. What the majority of the people in Arab countries think is irrelevant.



*What a nazi like you thinks is not only irrelevant but totally despicable to most people of the world.*




nirreich said:


> They are ill-informed, controlled by local media which spread propaganda or by cable channels like Al-Jazeera which are completely biased towards Israel.



*On the other hand, you're trained by people like rupert murdoch, who know nothing but how to misguide and defame good people.*



nirreich said:


> Moreover, the overwhelming majority are not educated and do not read any critical literature about the situation in the ME or even in their own countries. But for you their unsubstantial opinion represent the "truth".



*It is universally recognized that nazis like you naver have any respect for the will of the majority, their aim in life is to ensure the privileges of the few at the expense of the majority of people.*





nirreich said:


> You are making every excuse just to avoid confronting my arguments, you are pathetic and a coward.


*
Your arguments are laced with lies and deceit, they are nothing but zionist propaganda.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *What a nazi like you thinks is not only irrelevant but totally despicable to most people of the world.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *On the other hand, you're trained by people like rupert murdoch, who know nothing but how to misguide and defame good people.*
> 
> 
> 
> *It is universally recognized that nazis like you naver have any respect for the will of the majority, their aim in life is to ensure the privileges of the few at the expense of the majority of people.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Your arguments are laced with lies and deceit, they are nothing but zionist propaganda.*




Continue to run like a coward but I exposed the absurdity of your racist and anti-Semite views. All you lies, deceits and slanders will not change that. Here again the gist of the debate that you are too afraid to challenge:


T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued:

Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.

The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.

Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.

It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.

This is the reply the troll is cowardly running away from in the last 9 pages (!): 

There is not a single word of truth in the above post:

"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Continue to run like a coward but I exposed the absurdity of your racist and anti-Semite views. All you lies, deceits and slanders will not change that. Here again the gist of the debate that you are too afraid to challenge:
> 
> 
> T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued:
> 
> Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East. The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt. To its Arab neighbors, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements.
> 
> The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action.
> 
> Where Russia and America sought a balance of power; Israel appears committed to maintaining a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice.
> 
> It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco.
> 
> This is the reply the troll is cowardly running away from in the last 9 pages (!):
> 
> There is not a single word of truth in the above post:
> 
> "Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> "The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> "To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> "The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> "Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> "It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.


*
As I said what a nazi like you thinks or says is irrelevant, they don't count and that's why the other day one of your buddies urged you to end your pariah status.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> As I said what a nazi like thinks or says is irrelevant, they don't count and that's why the other day one of your buddies urged you to end your pariah status.*



I presented legitimate arguments that you cannot answer. Your anti-Semite fantasies are falling apart, and cursing will not cover your pathetic situation.

Again, here is the arguments that you are so terrified to confront:

*T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:
*


*"Israels overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

*"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - *complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

*"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - *Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

*"The ever-increasing size of Israels military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

*"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - *complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

*"Its essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I presented legitimate arguments that you cannot answer. Your anti-Semite fantasies are falling apart, and cursing will not cover your pathetic situation.
> 
> Again, here is the arguments that you are so terrified to confront:
> 
> *T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:
> *
> 
> 
> *"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> *"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - *complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> *"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - *Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> *"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> *"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - *complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> *"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.



*No, you don't present legitimate argument, you present lies disguised as legitimate arguments. You're a typical zionist liar and hypo0crite.*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeJ7uIPEbE


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *No, you don't present legitimate argument, you present lies disguised as legitimate arguments. You're a typical zionist liar and hypo0crite.*
> 
> Nuclear Threat is from Israel NOT Iran. - YouTube



Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!


T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:



*"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

*"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" -* complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

*"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" -* Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

*"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

*"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" -* complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

*"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.

This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).





---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------




T-Rex said:


> *No, you don't present legitimate argument, you present lies disguised as legitimate arguments. You're a typical zionist liar and hypo0crite.*
> 
> Nuclear Threat is from Israel NOT Iran. - YouTube



Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!


T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:



*"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

*"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" -* complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

*"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

*"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" -* complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

*"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!
> 
> 
> T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:
> 
> 
> 
> *"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> *"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" -* complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> *"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" -* Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> *"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> *"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" -* complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> *"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.
> 
> This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!
> 
> 
> T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:
> 
> 
> 
> *"Israel&#8217;s overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.
> 
> *"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" -* complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria.
> 
> "To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa.
> 
> Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.
> 
> *"The ever-increasing size of Israel&#8217;s military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.
> 
> *"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" -* complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.
> 
> *"It&#8217;s essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.



*Listen you zionist nazi, even the Saudis have decided to go for nukes and israeli nuke is the reason.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Listen you zionist nazi, even the Saudis have decided to go for nukes and israeli nuke is the reason.*





You are pissing in your pants with horror from the simple truth, and you cannot stop the truth from exposed with your lies and racism. Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!

T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued *(in bold)* and I replied:


*"Israels overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

*"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" - *complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

*"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - *Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

*"The ever-increasing size of Israels military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" - *these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

*"Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - *complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

*"Its essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.

This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).


----------



## 500

This topic should be renamed to "T-Rex nirreich chatroom".


----------



## nirreich

500 said:


> This topic should be renamed to "T-Rex nirreich chatroom".



This topic should be closed.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> This topic should be closed.



*You're trying your best but it's not working, so you may think of coming up with more of your lies. The US knows very well the implication of allowing israel to have nukes. The US deliberately follows this policy to beat the drums of war in the ME and behind the US government is the dirty hand of the US arms industry.
*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*War drums are beating for Iran. But who's playing them?*

Just like the taxpayers of medieval Italian cities, we're having our money siphoned off to pay for a a greedy military machine


Terry Jones
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 6 December 2011 16.06 GMT


In the 14th century there were two pandemics. One was the Black Death, the other was the commercialisation of warfare. Mercenaries had always existed, but under Edward III they became the mainstay of the English army for the first 20 years of what became the Hundred Years war. Then, when Edward signed the treaty of Brétigny in 1360 and told his soldiers to stop fighting and go home, many of them didn't have any homes to go to. They were used to fighting, and that's how they made their money. So they simply formed themselves into freelance armies, aptly called "free companies", that proceeded around France pillaging, killing and raping.

One of these armies was called the Great Company. It totalled, according to one estimate, 16,000 soldiers, larger than any existing national army. Eventually it descended on the pope, in Avignon, and held him to ransom. The pope made the mistake of paying off the mercenaries with huge amounts of cash, which only encouraged them to carry on marauding. He also suggested that they move on into Italy, where his arch-enemies, the Visconti, ran Milan. This they did, under the banner of the Marquis of Monferrato, again subsidised by the pope.

The nightmare had begun. Huge armies of brigands rampaging through Europe was a disaster second only to the plague. It seemed as if the genie had been let out of the bottle and there was no way of putting him back in. Warfare had suddenly turned into a profitable business; the Italian city states became impoverished as taxpayers' money was used to buy off the free companies. And since those who made money out of the business of war naturally wished to go on making money out of it, warfare had no foreseeable end.

Wind forward 650 years or so. The US, under George W Bush, decided to privatise the invasion of Iraq by employing private "contractors" like the Blackwater company, now renamed Xe Services. In 2003 Blackwater won a $27m no-bid contract for guarding Paul Bremer, then head of the Coalition Provisional Authority. For protecting officials in conflict zones since 2004, the company has received more than $320m. And this year the Obama government contracted to pay Xe Services a quarter of a billion dollars for security work in Afghanistan. This is just one of many companies making its profits out of warfare.

In 2000 the Project for the New American Century published a report, Rebuilding America's Defenses, whose declared aim was to up the spending on defence from 3% to 3.5% or 3.8% of American gross domestic product. In fact it is now running at 4.7% of GDP. In the UK we spend about $57bn a year on defence, or 2.5% of GDP.

Just like the taxpayers of medieval Italian city-states, we are having our money siphoned off into the business of war. Any responsible company needs to make profits for its shareholders. In the 14th century the shareholders in the free companies were the soldiers themselves. If the company wasn't being employed by someone to make war on someone else, the shareholders had to forgo their dividends. So they looked around to create markets for themselves.

Sir John Hawkwood's White Company would offer its services to the pope or to the city of Florence. If either turned his offer down, Hawkwood would simply make an offer to their enemies. As Francis Stonor Saunders writes in her wonderful book, Hawkwood &#8211; Diabolical Englishman: "The value of the companies was the purely negative one of maintaining the balance of military power between the cities." Just like the cold war.

Two decades ago I picked up an in-house magazine for the arms industry. Its editorial was headed "Thank God For Saddam". It explained that, since the collapse of communism and end of the cold war, the order books of the arms industry had been empty. But now there was a new enemy, the industry could look forward to a bonanza. The invasion of Iraq was built around a lie: Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, but the defence industry needed an enemy, and the politicians duly supplied one.

And now the same war drums, encouraged by the storming of the British embassy last week, are beating for an attack on Iran. Seymour Hersh writes in the New Yorker: "All of the low enriched uranium now known to be produced inside Iran is accounted for." The recent IAEA report which provoked such outcry against Iran's nuclear ambitions, he continues, contains nothing that proves that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

In the 14th century it was the church that lived in symbiosis with the military. Nowadays it is the politicians. The US government spent a staggering $687bn on "defence" in 2010. Think what could be done with that money if it were put into hospitals, schools or to pay off foreclosed mortgages.

The retiring US president, Dwight D Eisenhower, famously took the opportunity of his farewell to the nation address in 1961 to warn his fellow countrymen of the danger in allowing too close a relationship between politicians and the defence industry.

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience," he said. "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." It exists. The genie is out of the bottle again.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You're trying your best but it's not working, so you may think of coming up with more of your lies. The US knows very well the implication of allowing israel to have nukes. The US deliberately follows this policy to beat the drums of war in the ME and behind the US government is the dirty hand of the US arms industry.
> *
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *War drums are beating for Iran. But who's playing them?*
> 
> Just like the taxpayers of medieval Italian cities, we're having our money siphoned off to pay for a a greedy military machine
> 
> 
> Terry Jones
> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 6 December 2011 16.06 GMT
> 
> 
> In the 14th century there were two pandemics. One was the Black Death, the other was the commercialisation of warfare. Mercenaries had always existed, but under Edward III they became the mainstay of the English army for the first 20 years of what became the Hundred Years war. Then, when Edward signed the treaty of Brétigny in 1360 and told his soldiers to stop fighting and go home, many of them didn't have any homes to go to. They were used to fighting, and that's how they made their money. So they simply formed themselves into freelance armies, aptly called "free companies", that proceeded around France pillaging, killing and raping.
> 
> One of these armies was called the Great Company. It totalled, according to one estimate, 16,000 soldiers, larger than any existing national army. Eventually it descended on the pope, in Avignon, and held him to ransom. The pope made the mistake of paying off the mercenaries with huge amounts of cash, which only encouraged them to carry on marauding. He also suggested that they move on into Italy, where his arch-enemies, the Visconti, ran Milan. This they did, under the banner of the Marquis of Monferrato, again subsidised by the pope.
> 
> The nightmare had begun. Huge armies of brigands rampaging through Europe was a disaster second only to the plague. It seemed as if the genie had been let out of the bottle and there was no way of putting him back in. Warfare had suddenly turned into a profitable business; the Italian city states became impoverished as taxpayers' money was used to buy off the free companies. And since those who made money out of the business of war naturally wished to go on making money out of it, warfare had no foreseeable end.
> 
> Wind forward 650 years or so. The US, under George W Bush, decided to privatise the invasion of Iraq by employing private "contractors" like the Blackwater company, now renamed Xe Services. In 2003 Blackwater won a $27m no-bid contract for guarding Paul Bremer, then head of the Coalition Provisional Authority. For protecting officials in conflict zones since 2004, the company has received more than $320m. And this year the Obama government contracted to pay Xe Services a quarter of a billion dollars for security work in Afghanistan. This is just one of many companies making its profits out of warfare.
> 
> In 2000 the Project for the New American Century published a report, Rebuilding America's Defenses, whose declared aim was to up the spending on defence from 3% to 3.5% or 3.8% of American gross domestic product. In fact it is now running at 4.7% of GDP. In the UK we spend about $57bn a year on defence, or 2.5% of GDP.
> 
> Just like the taxpayers of medieval Italian city-states, we are having our money siphoned off into the business of war. Any responsible company needs to make profits for its shareholders. In the 14th century the shareholders in the free companies were the soldiers themselves. If the company wasn't being employed by someone to make war on someone else, the shareholders had to forgo their dividends. So they looked around to create markets for themselves.
> 
> Sir John Hawkwood's White Company would offer its services to the pope or to the city of Florence. If either turned his offer down, Hawkwood would simply make an offer to their enemies. As Francis Stonor Saunders writes in her wonderful book, Hawkwood  Diabolical Englishman: "The value of the companies was the purely negative one of maintaining the balance of military power between the cities." Just like the cold war.
> 
> Two decades ago I picked up an in-house magazine for the arms industry. Its editorial was headed "Thank God For Saddam". It explained that, since the collapse of communism and end of the cold war, the order books of the arms industry had been empty. But now there was a new enemy, the industry could look forward to a bonanza. The invasion of Iraq was built around a lie: Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, but the defence industry needed an enemy, and the politicians duly supplied one.
> 
> And now the same war drums, encouraged by the storming of the British embassy last week, are beating for an attack on Iran. Seymour Hersh writes in the New Yorker: "All of the low enriched uranium now known to be produced inside Iran is accounted for." The recent IAEA report which provoked such outcry against Iran's nuclear ambitions, he continues, contains nothing that proves that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.
> 
> In the 14th century it was the church that lived in symbiosis with the military. Nowadays it is the politicians. The US government spent a staggering $687bn on "defence" in 2010. Think what could be done with that money if it were put into hospitals, schools or to pay off foreclosed mortgages.
> 
> The retiring US president, Dwight D Eisenhower, famously took the opportunity of his farewell to the nation address in 1961 to warn his fellow countrymen of the danger in allowing too close a relationship between politicians and the defence industry.
> 
> "This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience," he said. "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." It exists. The genie is out of the bottle again.





You are pissing in your pants with horror from the simple truth, and you cannot stop the truth from exposed with your lies and racism. Here is the truth again in your anti-Semitic and cowardly face!

T-Rex, The pathetic anti-Semite troll argued (in bold) and I replied:


*"Israels overall behavior raises very legitimate concern and fear throughout the Middle East" - *As exposed in Wikileaks, The main fears throughout the ME is about Iran's hegemonic ambitions and not about Israel. Iran strives to overthrow all the moderate Arab regimes in the ME - KSA, UAE, Egypt, Jordan. Iran already began to undermine the regimes in Lebanon, Yemen and Bahrain.

*"The theocratic foundation of Israel calls for the Jews to inhabit all of the Land of Israel, which extends into Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt" -* complete nonsense. Israel is hardy a theocratic state but a liberal democracy. If Israel wants to extend into its neighbours how come that since the 1970's Israel withdrew from territories that it already controlled and are twice as large than its current territory? Israel withdrew from Sinai, Gaza, South Lebanon, and agreed for a self government for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel was also ready to withdraw from the Golan Hights as part of a peace agreement with Syria. 

*"To its Arab neighbours, Israel is seen as an existential threat that has demonstrated its aggressiveness by launching the 1967 War, invading Lebanon and constantly annexing Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements" - *Israel's neighbours so "afraid" from Israel that they tried to eliminate it in the 1948 War. The 1967 War was a direct result of an Arab threat for a "second round" to destroy Israel. So who should feel that it is under existential threat??? For your information, Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and still Hizbuallha continue to threat Israel with the support of Syria and Iran, but of course Israel is the existential threat and not vice versa. 

Regarding the settlements, Israel evacuated all its military and settlements from Gaza and in return the Palestinians are firing rockets on civilian population living in undisputed Israeli territory. Israel was ready to evacuate most of the settlements in 2000 and 2008, but the Palestinians refused in return to accept Israel as the Jewish-nation state. So, even an anti-Semite like you knows that the settlements are hardly the main problem.

"*The ever-increasing size of Israels military and nuclear arsenal can certainly be perceived as far beyond that necessary to ensure its survival. The addition of nuclear-capable submarines and long-range missiles suggests preparations for aggressive action" -* these are just fantasies, you do not have any credible information about Israel's non-conventional capabilities. Moreover, who are you to determine what is "necessary to ensure its survival"? Israel is surrounded by an ocean of Muslim hatred, no one in the ME is ready to accept it as a Jewish-nation state and Israel is under constant terror attacks from Hamas and Hizbuallha which are supported by Iran and Syria and more importantly - by most of the public opinion in Islamic countries. Moreover, Iran develops nuclear weapons while threatening to eliminate Israel. Just name another country which is in a more serious existential threat than Israel.

"*Israel appears committed to maintain a disproportionate imbalance of power. By building stronger relations with India, the Israelis are place a number of Muslim states between a nuclear vice" - *complete nonsense. Why nuclear Russia and nuclear US can have military cooperation with India, but Israel is not allowed to cooperate with India? And you right about keeping imbalance with the Arab countries which are poised to destroy Israel - this is the only thing that prevents another war against Israel tomorrow morning.

"*Its essential to look at the developing strategic situation from a Muslim perspective. And from that perspective the Middle East is becoming a very dangerous place, with Muslim states in the sights of Israeli and Indian nuclear weapons and American forces from Pakistan to Morocco" - *the ME is indeed a very dangerous region but only because of the irresponsible behaviour of the Muslim countries in this region. They are failed states which their contribution to human kind is around zero: almost a billion Muslims between Morocco and Pakistan are just a burden on the international community with almost nothing constructive to give to the welfare of mankind. Israel with its seven million people contributed much more than a billion Muslims. Moreover, almost all these Muslim countries are more occupied with blaming everyone but themselves in their miserable situation. They never look what is fundamental wrong with their societies and try to change it. All they produce is frustration and hate against Israel and the West which eventually turns into terrorism and developing WMD.

This is the ugly truth, but you are too anti-Semite to admit it. That is why you and your kind in the Muslim Civilisation are at the bottom of human development (by your own expert's admission).


----------



## makelovenotwar

If you were Israel and surrounded by backward counties would you give up your nukes?!


----------



## makelovenotwar

I should add to balance that comment Israel's ultra right-wing domestic and foreign policy sucks.


----------



## nirreich

makelovenotwar said:


> If you were Israel and surrounded by backward counties would you give up your nukes?!



The desired goal of Israel is similar to other Western countries: a world free of nuclear weapons. However, similar to the delays of the US, Britain and France in achieving this goal on justifiable security reasons, the threats to Israel's security are much more serious and more urgent. Israel stated many times in the past that it is ready to accept a NWFZ in ME when it will have stable peace agreements and normalisation with all the countries in the region, including Iran, and they accept the legitimacy of its existence.

Nowadays, the biggest danger to current nuclear non-proliferation efforts and to the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is Iran's nuclear programme and Iran's intentions to develop nuclear weapons. Iran will definitely use nuclear capability to undermine the stability in ME and support radical regimes. Iran's nuclear ambitions will likely lead to a nuclear ME with KSA and Egypt developing nukes in order to defend themselves against Iran's ambitions. A nuclear ME is a danger to global stability in view of the reactionary trends and the majority of failed countries in this region .

Except Iran, other nuclear countries should be the focus of global attention instead of Israel: Pakistan and North Korea assisted radical regimes which sponsor terrorism to develop nuclear weapons. The nuclear policies of Pakistan and North Korea and the instability they create in their region are much more dangerous to the world than Israel which adopted a responsible nuclear policy, similar to Britain and France. Israel is not a threat to any country in the ME or in the international community, so its nuclear issue is not more urgent than dismantling Britain's nuclear weapons.

Israel definitely should not be treated equally to Iran which violated its international commitments and secretly developed nuclear programme for 20 years by using international nuclear assistance it received as a result of its membership in the NPT (which Israel did not join). Moreover, unlike Israel, Iran publicly threatens to eliminate a legitimate country Israel which was recognised by the UN and the international community. Iran's terrorist behaviour and deceits disqualify it from any international legitimacy to develop nuclear weapons, even if it has security concerns.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The desired goal of Israel is similar to other Western countries: a world free of nuclear weapons. However, similar to the delays of the US, Britain and France in achieving this goal on justifiable security reasons, the threats to Israel's security are much more serious and more urgent. Israel stated many times in the past that it is ready to accept a NWFZ in ME when it will have stable peace agreements and normalisation with all the countries in the region, including Iran, and they accept the legitimacy of its existence.
> 
> Nowadays, the biggest danger to current nuclear non-proliferation efforts and to the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is Iran's nuclear programme and Iran's intentions to develop nuclear weapons. Iran will definitely use nuclear capability to undermine the stability in ME and support radical regimes. Iran's nuclear ambitions will likely lead to a nuclear ME with KSA and Egypt developing nukes in order to defend themselves against Iran's ambitions. A nuclear ME is a danger to global stability in view of the reactionary trends and the majority of failed countries in this region .
> 
> Except Iran, other nuclear countries should be the focus of global attention instead of Israel: Pakistan and North Korea assisted radical regimes which sponsor terrorism to develop nuclear weapons. The nuclear policies of Pakistan and North Korea and the instability they create in their region are much more dangerous to the world than Israel which adopted a responsible nuclear policy, similar to Britain and France. Israel is not a threat to any country in the ME or in the international community, so its nuclear issue is not more urgent than dismantling Britain's nuclear weapons.
> 
> Israel definitely should not be treated equally to Iran which violated its international commitments and secretly developed nuclear programme for 20 years by using international nuclear assistance it received as a result of its membership in the NPT (which Israel did not join). Moreover, unlike Israel, Iran publicly threatens to eliminate a legitimate country Israel which was recognised by the UN and the international community. Iran's terrorist behaviour and deceits disqualify it from any international legitimacy to develop nuclear weapons, even if it has security concerns.



*NPT is nothing but a tool to continue the nuclear hegemony of the few, so I don't give a sh!t to who violates this ******* treaty. What matters is who is violating peace and that culprit is certainly israel with its stock of WMDs when none have it in the ME.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *NPT is nothing but a tool to continue the nuclear hegemony of the few, so I don't give a sh!t to who violates this ******* treaty. What matters is who is violating peace and that culprit is certainly israel with its stock of WMDs when none have it in the ME.*



Iran made commitments under the NPT and received extensive nuclear assistance through IAEA and bilaterally (for example, the nclear reactor in Busher which was designed and built by Germany and Russia). Israel never joined the NPT, so its nuclear status is equivalent to India and not to Iran. There is no international justification to pressure Israel more than India or Pakistan or North Korea - none of them are NPT members (unlike Iran).

You never gave any rationale and good explanation why Israel is the one which "violate the peace". I dismissed all your previous nonsense about the so-called "danger" of Israel and showed that the real threat is Iran and it should be dealt by the international community without any connection to Israel.

As usual you ignore facts, reality, and the truth and all you can do is scream, slander and expose how little you know and understand about this issue.

P.S: Writing in bold letters and bigger fonts will not make your nonsense somehow more accurate than before.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Iran made commitments under the NPT and received extensive nuclear assistance through IAEA and bilaterally (for example, the nclear reactor in Busher which was designed and built by Germany and Russia). Israel never joined the NPT, so its nuclear status is equivalent to India and not to Iran. There is no international justification to pressure Israel more than India or Pakistan or North Korea - none of them are NPT members (unlike Iran).
> 
> You never gave any rationale and good explanation why Israel is the one which "violate the peace". I dismissed all your previous nonsense about the so-called "danger" of Israel and showed that the real threat is Iran and it should be dealt by the international community without any connection to Israel.
> 
> As usual you ignore facts, reality, and the truth and all you can do is scream, slander and expose how little you know and understand about this issue.
> 
> P.S: Writing in bold letters and bigger fonts will not make your nonsense somehow more accurate than before.


*
Israel violates the peace by acquiring nukes when others in the ME don't have it, israel violates peace by ignoring the security of others.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Israel violates the peace by acquiring nukes when others in the ME don't have it, israel violates peace by ignoring the security of others.*



Did China violated the peace in its region just by developing nuclear weapons? And India? And Russia? And France?

If the answer is YES, then you should say that Israel should dismantle when all the nuclear weapons countries will dismantle because they all are a security threat with no difference.

If the answer is NO, then you argument that Israel danger the peace in the ME just by having a nuclear programme is a lie.

Pick your answer, whatever it is it contradicts your distorted argument.


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## Banana

T-Rex said:


> *
> Israel violates the peace by acquiring nukes when others in the ME don't have it, israel violates peace by ignoring the security of others.*



Wahabis violate International Peace by supporting Extremist versions of Islam all over the world.

Infact Wahabised Bangladesh is a threat to India, Israel and Friends.

Rethinking Islam with Sultan Shahin: Wahhabi teaching on the rise in Bangladesh: Saudi Arabia provides the money


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## T-Rex

*China developed nukes to counter the Russian and the american nukes, india got it to counter China, then Pakistan got it to counter india., but of course, you wouldn't see it that way because of your treachery and abhorrence for truth. Now, since israel has the nukes iran should acquire nukes to counter the israeli nukes.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *China developed nukes to counter the Russian and the american nukes, india got it to counter China, then Pakistan got it to counter india., but of course, you wouldn't see it that way because of your treachery and abhorrence for truth. Now, since israel has the nukes iran should acquire nukes to counter the israeli nukes.*



In your reply you ignored just a little thing: Who Israel needs to counter? Or do you think that all the countries except Israel have security threats? Your slandering can easily be used against you: "but of course, you wouldn't see it that way because of your treachery and abhorrence for truth"!

Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd.



Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd = *a typical zionist lie*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd = *a typical zionist lie*



Why? Because you say so? 

If you believe in your lies elaborate what conflict Iran has with Israel - Border disputes? Natural resources? Ethnic groups?

And if there is a conflict, please let us all know when and how it began: until 1979 Israel had diplomatic relations with Iran including military cooperation, How it settles with your fantasies?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Why? Because you say so?



*You cannot breathe without lying, it's in your blood.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You cannot breathe without lying, it's in your blood.*



If I lie then how come you find it so hard to prove it? I ask you questions and you are acting like a shameless coward.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If I lie then how come you find it so hard to prove it?



*You're proving it for me when you open your stinky mouth.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You're proving it for me when you open your stinky mouth.*



If I lie you can comment directly on what I wrote which is not true and expose it, like I systematically do with your lies.

However, you are both a coward and an ignorant anti-Semite, so your intellectual capacity is not enough even for realising what proving a lie means. I am sure that truth I presented is a very hard burden on the distorted illusion you built for yourself to hide from reality.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If I lie you can comment directly on what I wrote which is not true and expose it, like I systematically do with your lies.
> 
> .



*Here's one example of your lies*, you said, "Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd. " The truth is quite the opposite.


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Here's one example of your lies*, you said, "Iran develops nukes with no connection to Israel, but as a result of their hegemonic ambitions. Israel has no conflict with Iran so this argument is absurd. " The truth is quite the opposite.



And what is the truth?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> And what is the truth?



*The israeli nukes are the result of israel's hegemonic ambitions.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *The israeli nukes are the result of israel's hegemonic ambitions.*



Please explain how what you call "Israel's hegemonic ambitions" settle with the territories Israel has withdrew from since the 1970's and twice as big as its current territory? 

Will you answer or will you run away again?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Please explain how what you call "Israel's hegemonic ambitions" settle with the territories Israel has withdrew from since the 1970's and twice as big as its current territory?
> 
> Will you answer or will you run away again?



*Israel possessing WMD and showing the bogeyman when others are about to counter that is hegemony.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Israel possessing WMD and showing the bogeyman when others are about to counter that is hegemony.*



Possessing WMD for itself does not necessary indicate to hegemonic aspirations. How a country can be hegemonic and withdraw from huge territories (relatively to its own)? 

Did Pakistan/North Korea has nuclear weapons because of hegemonic aspirations?

How do you define hegemonic aspirations? What Israel trying to achieve by its so-called hegemony?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Possessing WMD for itself does not necessary indicate to hegemonic aspirations. How a country can be hegemonic and withdraw from huge territories (relatively to its own)?
> 
> Did Pakistan/North Korea has nuclear weapons because of hegemonic aspirations?
> 
> How do you define hegemonic aspirations? What Israel trying to achieve by its so-called hegemony?



*A country which first introduces WMDs does so out of hegemonic ambitions while others do it to counter that. When you accused Iran of having hegemonic ambitions did you not know the definition of it?*


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## 500

T-Rex said:


> *A country which first introduces WMDs does so out of hegemonic ambitions while others do it to counter that. When you accused Iran of having hegemonic ambitions did you not know the definition of it?*


First country that used WMD in Middle East was Egypt. Second - Iraq. Israel never used any WMDs.


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## A1Kaid

I'm so tired I thought the title read "Time for IKEA to deal with Israeli Nukes."

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Rex

500 said:


> First country that used WMD in Middle East was Egypt. Second - Iraq. Israel never used any WMDs.


 
*By WMDs I meant nukes, not chemical or biological weapons. Israel is the the first country in the ME to have nukes, so the blame squarely false on israel.*


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## SOHEIL

500 said:


> Why NOT Pakistan ?????



because !!!

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------




500 said:


> First country that used WMD in Middle East was Egypt. Second - Iraq. Israel never used any WMDs.



I do not believe !!!


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## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> And what is the truth?



i have Question

what is your real Nationality&#1567;&#1567;&#1567;


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## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> i have Question
> 
> what is your real Nationality&#1567;&#1567;&#1567;



Why you do not believe it is Israeli? What did I write that suggest otherwise?


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *A country which first introduces WMDs does so out of hegemonic ambitions while others do it to counter that. When you accused Iran of having hegemonic ambitions did you not know the definition of it?*



Sometime a country develop WMD for deterrence in order to prevent an attack against it. If Israel developed nuclear weapons this fact for itself does not necessary mean it has hegemonic aspirations, there should be other proofs - and they are any.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Sometime a country develop WMD for deterrence in order to prevent an attack against it. If Israel developed nuclear weapons this fact for itself does not necessary mean it has hegemonic aspirations, there should be other proofs - and they are any.



*You develope nukes to deter a nuclear strike not a conventional strike, so israel has no excuse to possess nukes, israel's purpose is to continue its hegemony in the ME. On the other hand, Iran has a valid reason to develop nukes as a deterrent against the israeli nukes.*

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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You develope nukes to deter a nuclear strike not a conventional strike, so israel has no excuse to possess nukes, israel's purpose is to continue its hegemony in the ME. On the other hand, Iran has a valid reason to develop nukes as a deterrent against the israeli nukes.*



When Israel develop non-conventional capabilities almost no Arab country was anywhere close to develop nuclear weapons. Egypt had some chemical capabilities but not nothing which could succumb Israel. Israel rationale was because of its strategic environment: Israel was isolated, no country in the ME recognised it and its neighbours threatened with a "second round" of military attack against it (the "first round" was the 1948 War) in order to eliminate it. Israel's entire populations in the middle of the 1960's was only 2.5 million people, including Palestinians who were its enemies in the 1948 War, and with very narrow territory which was in near its Tel Aviv and the mass urban areas only 15km width. Israel's capital city, Jerusalem, was divided and surrounded from three directions with only one road connecting the city to the rest of the country. Until 1967, the US kept a distance and was reluctant to give Israel massive military assistance.

In the above conditions Israel developed a nuclear programme. Given this reality is it that hard to believe that Israel's capabilities were a mean to deter the Arabs from launching a conventional attack which have a chance (not very big) to defeat and eliminate Israel?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Given this reality is it that hard to believe that Israel's capabilities were a mean to deter the Arabs from launching a conventional attack which have a chance (not very big) to defeat and eliminate Israel?



*Yes, it is hard to believe that israel acquired nukes to counter the conventional Arab armies with low tech weapons when compared to the high tech weapons possessed by the israeli army.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Yes, it is hard to believe that israel acquired nukes to counter the conventional Arab armies with low tech weapons when compared to the high tech weapons possessed by the israeli army.*



This was not the situation when Israel developed a nuclear programme - in the late 1950's. Israel had an advantage over the Arab but not as today, and did not have strategic alliance with the US.

As I said, in a scenario of an Arab surprise attack on Israel in pre-1967 borders, without any strategic depth (the border was 30 Km from Tel Aviv and the capital Jerusalem was divided with Jordan and surrounded from three sides), it could have been in a serious risk to its existence.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> This was not the situation when Israel developed a nuclear programme - in the late 1950's. Israel had an advantage over the Arab but not as today, and did not have strategic alliance with the US.



*Since israel has a massive military advantage today, it has no ground to possess nukes today, it can always give up its nukes.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Since israel has a massive military advantage today, it has no ground to possess nukes today, it can always give up its nukes.*



The problem is that the ME is the most unstable region in the world, and Israel is still isolated and none of the countries in the region are ready to accept Israel as a Jewish-nation state. The radical axis of Iran, Syria, Hizbuhalla and Hamas is still planning how to destroy Israel by terrorism and military force. Furthermore, Iran's nuclear ambitions threatens Israel like the possibility of nuclear weapons in other Arab and Muslim countries (such as Egypt, KSA and Turkey). Their nuclear ambitions are part of the power struggle between the Muslim countries of the ME and got nothing to do with Israel's nuclear programme (Iran wants nuke to dominate to region, KSA and Egypt wants to counter Iran, etc.)

The condition for Israel's nuclear disarmament is very simple: permanent peace agreements and normalisation with all the countries of the ME. When that happens Israel will be able to have security and will not fear from the possibility of more attempts to eliminate it.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The problem is that the ME is the most unstable region in the world, and Israel is still isolated and none of the countries in the region are ready to accept Israel as a Jewish-nation state. The radical axis of Iran, Syria, Hizbuhalla and Hamas is still planning how to destroy Israel by terrorism and military force. Furthermore, Iran's nuclear ambitions threatens Israel like the possibility of nuclear weapons in other Arab and Muslim countries (such as Egypt, KSA and Turkey). Their nuclear ambitions are part of the power struggle between the Muslim countries of the ME and got nothing to do with Israel's nuclear programme (Iran wants nuke to dominate to region, KSA and Egypt wants to counter Iran, etc.)
> 
> The condition for Israel's nuclear disarmament is very simple: permanent peace agreements and normalisation with all the countries of the ME. When that happens Israel will be able to have security and will not fear from the possibility of more attempts to eliminate it.


*
The biggest problem is people like you are never short of excuses for not doing what should be done. Israel does not need nukes to have peace with its neighbours, it is just an excuse to keep the nukes at any cost. This is unacceptable to countries which have independent foreign policy.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The biggest problem is people like you are never short of excuses for not doing what should be done. Israel does not need nukes to have peace with its neighbours, it is just an excuse to keep the nukes at any cost. This is unacceptable to countries which have independent foreign policy.*



What an independent foreign policy got to do with it?

It seems you are having troubles to understand the difficult strategic situation of Israel because you do not live in a country completely isolated in its region with terror groups and countries committed to its destruction. You do not live in a country that the maximum distance between its borders in less than 100km and is some places were less than 20km (mainly near its urban and populated centres where Israel is most vulnerable). 

Living under constant threat of liquidation drive you to develop a deterrence against any such possibility. Is it that difficult to understand?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What an independent foreign policy got to do with it?


*
It has everything to do with independent foreign policy. If the US had an independent foreign policy it would not defend israel the way it does. America simply implements the israelli foreign policy and that's why it has no objection to the israeli nukes.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> It has everything to do with independent foreign policy. If the US had an independent foreign policy it would not defend israel the way it does. America simply implements the israelli foreign policy and that's why it has no objection to the israeli nukes.*



You are right that nowadays the US see Israel as a strategic asset in very problematic region but all this conspiracies that Israel run the US foreign policy are unsubstantial and both countries have a lot of disagreements (for example the US does not recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital city and the US embassy is in Tel Aviv).

The US realises like other world powers (both Western and non-Western, like Russia) that Israel's nuclear issue is hardly the main problem in the ME and has no negative implications. The main current threat is Iran's aspirations for nuclear weapons and its hegemonic ambitions.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are right that nowadays the US see Israel as a strategic asset in very problematic region but all this conspiracies that Israel run the US foreign policy are unsubstantial and both countries have a lot of disagreements (for example the US does not recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital city and the US embassy is in Tel Aviv).
> 
> The US realises like other world powers (both Western and non-Western, like Russia) that Israel's nuclear issue is hardly the main problem in the ME and has no negative implications. The main current threat is Iran's aspirations for nuclear weapons and its hegemonic ambitions.



*You twist what your adversaries say, give up this zionist habit. Iran's ambitions are in no way hegemonic, it is simply working to defend itself from israel's nuclear hegemony.
*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You twist what your adversaries say, give up this zionist habit. Iran's ambitions are in no way hegemonic, it is simply working to defend itself from israel's nuclear hegemony.
> *



Iran is not worried about Israel but about the US hegemony. Iran wants to spread the Islamic revolution and the US is its main adversary which blockade Iran from achieving its strategic goal.

As I already mentioned several times, Israel has no conflict with Iran and Iran is no more threatened from Israel's WMD than Bangladesh: why Bangladesh does not develop nuclear weapons because of Israel?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Iran is not worried about Israel but about the US hegemony.



*At least,you admit that there's something called the US hegemony and one day you'll also admit that there's also something called the israeli hegemony.*




nirreich said:


> As I already mentioned several times, Israel has no conflict with Iran and Iran is no more threatened from Israel's WMD than Bangladesh:



*It's like saying there's no conflict in the ME.*


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## Zarvan

IAEA is a USA slave just like UN and other organisations it will do nothing against ISRAEL as long as USA supports Israel


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *At least,you admit that there's something called the US hegemony and one day you'll also admit that there's also something called the israeli hegemony.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It's like saying there's no conflict in the ME.*



I never denied that the US is a superpower and wants to stay in this status. Personally, I hope it will succeed.

If Iran is concerned about Israel, then why it was its ally until 1979? How Israel can be a threat to Iran while Israel never had any conflict with Iran on anything. Israel's main problem is Iran's current regime and his aspirations to eliminate Israel.

Or do you deny that Iran wants to exterminate Israel?

Why Bangladesh (and other 192 countries) do not develop nukes because of Israel?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I never denied that the US is a superpower and wants to stay in this status. Personally, I hope it will succeed.
> 
> If Iran is concerned about Israel, then why it was its ally until 1979? How Israel can be a threat to Iran while Israel never had any conflict with Iran on anything. Israel's main problem is Iran's current regime and his aspirations to eliminate Israel.
> 
> Or do you deny that Iran wants to exterminate Israel?
> 
> Why Bangladesh (and other 192 countries) do not develop nukes because of Israel?



*That iran wants to exterminate israel is the greatest zionist propaganda. It is used to hide the threat of the israeli nukes. BTW if you want to discuss BD there is a section for that, try there.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *That iran wants to exterminate israel is the greatest zionist propaganda. It is used to hide the threat of the israeli nukes. BTW if you want to discuss BD there is a section for that, try there.*



Do I really need to give links to the numerous speeches of Iran's leaders and particularly Ahmenijad against the *existence* of Israel? Or is even the Iranian regime considered by you as a Zionist puppet?

What threat Israel's so called nukes has more on Iran than on Bangladesh?

BTW. what is BD?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Do I really need to give links to the numerous speeches of Iran's leaders and particularly Ahmenijad against the *existence* of Israel? Or is the Iranian regime is a Zionist puppet?
> 
> What threat Israel's so called nukes has more on Iran than on Bangladesh?
> 
> BTW. what is BD?


*
Yeah, give us those links engineered by the venerable Mossad. BD stands for Bangladesh; I thought you were smart.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yeah, give us those links engineered by the venerable Mossad. BD stands for Bangladesh; I thought you were smart.*



If I give you recorded speeches will that convince you that Iran wants to exterminate Israel or will you think that the person talking is an actor of Mossad who is disguised as Ahmadinijad?

I just want to make sure before I even bother.

What do you think? That Iran wants peace with Israel and ready to recognise it?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If I give you recorded speeches will that convince you that Iran wants to exterminate Israel or will you think that the person talking is an actor of Mossad who is disguised as Ahmadinijad?
> 
> I just want to make sure before I even bother.
> 
> What do you think? That Iran wants peace with Israel and ready to recognise it?



*I know how voices can be duplicated, Mossad has the technology and the expertise, so I won't be surprised if you come up with one. Whatever the case, israel simply does not have any excuse to possess nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *I know how voices can be duplicated, Mossad has the technology and the expertise, so I won't be surprised if you come up with one. Whatever the case, israel simply does not have any excuse to possess nukes.*



OK, then publish a link of any Iranian official says that they want to live in peace with Israel and denies any intention to destroy it. 

If the case is that Iran wants to destroy Israel and there is a consensus about it in the Arab societies and you have Arab factions (Syria, Hamas, Hizbuallha) which try to do it with violent means - then Israel has to do whatever necessary to deter any attempt to eliminate it.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *I know how voices can be duplicated, Mossad has the technology and the expertise, so I won't be surprised if you come up with one. Whatever the case, israel simply does not have any excuse to possess nukes.*



Is this fiction fabricated by Mossad?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Is this fiction fabricated by Mossad?


*
Who has done the translation? Is it the correct translation? And then according to it Ahmadinejad is saying that people are saying, 'death to israel'. If the leader in Burma says death to BD could that be an excuse for BD to acquire nukes?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Who has done the translation? Is it the correct translation? And then according to it Ahmadinejad is saying that people are saying, 'death to israel'. If the leader in Burma says death to BD could that be an excuse for BD to acquire nukes?*



The Iranian President chose to quote the slogan "death to Israel" because he believes in it. He described Israel as a Satanic tool. 

If you do not trust the translation, ask someone who knows Farsi to translate it for you, please let me know if what Ahmanedinijad really saying is that he wants to join the Zionist movement, I will spread the word in Israel.

What exactly is your argument? That it is a joke? That Ahmadenijad decided to declare "death to Israel" because he wants to have peace with Israel? Why do you deny what the Iranians never bother to deny?

You should understand by now that the current Iranian regime wants to eliminate Israel without any connection to the question if Israel developed nuclear weapons or not. Even if Israel declared tomorrow morning that it not only dismantle its alleged WMD but also its entire military capabilities, the Iranian regime would still aspire to eliminate Israel: this is its ideology (like almost all the factions of Arab societies). 

If the leaders of Burma declared that they want to destroy Bangladesh and supported terror organisations which murdered thousands of Bangalis would you not take them seriously? If Burma developed a nuclear programme with missiles that can hit any place in Bangladesh and threatens to use it against Bangladesh would you not think it might be a good idea that your country can deter Burma from executing its intentions?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The Iranian President chose to quote the slogan "death to Israel" because he believes in it.



*People frequently quote others but that does not make them the source of the quotations.*



nirreich said:


> He described Israel as a Satanic tool.



*What do you expect when you describe him as something worse than that.*



nirreich said:


> If you do not trust the translation, ask someone who knows Farsi to translate it for you, please let me know if what Ahmanedinijad really saying is that he wants to join the Zionist movement, I will spread the word in Israel.


*
We know that you're a proud zionist and perhaps that is the reason why Ahmedinejad describes you the way he does. To some morons zionism may be the beacon of light but to those who are sane it is same as nazism.*




nirreich said:


> What exactly is your argument?



*You're smarter than that.*




nirreich said:


> If the leaders of Burma declared that they want to destroy Bangladesh and supported terror organisations which murdered thousands of Bangalis would you not take them seriously? If Burma developed a nuclear programme with missiles that can hit any place in Bangladesh and threatens to use it against Bangladesh would you not think it might be a good idea that your country can deter Burma from executing its intentions?



*Israel started the nuclear arms race, not the other way round.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *People frequently quote others but that does not make them the source of the quotations.*
> 
> 
> 
> *What do you expect when you describe him as something worse than that.*
> 
> 
> *
> We know that you're a proud zionist and perhaps that is the reason why Ahmedinejad describes you the way he does. To some morons zionism may be the beacon of light but to those who are sane it is same as nazism.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You're smarter than that.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel started the nuclear arms race, not the other way round.*



You conveniently ignore the situation between Israel and Iran. Israel is ready for full normalisation with Iran and for a peace agreement that will remove any concern in Iran about Israel because Israel has no conflict with Iran and never had. The problem is Iran's reactionary regime which reject any recognition in Israel - and the link to the video clearly exemplify it. 

You persistently trying not to comprehend that no matter what Israel will do or not do the current Iranian regime would still aspire to destroy it because it believes (like most of the people in the ME) that there is no place to a Jewish-nation state in this region. So, your talking about a nuclear arms race are just empty words: even the Iranian regime does not say that if Israel is nuke-free than it will abandon its intentions to eliminate it. 

In conclusion, on one side you have a regime in Iran which rejects any recognition of Israel even if there be a Palestinian state and even if Israel is without nuclear weapons. Iran's nuclear programme is hardly a nuclear arms race but developing doomsday means by a regime which destabilise the region and wants to eliminate a legitimate country. On the other hand, Israel never used any WMD in order to destabilise Arab regimes or threatened to eliminate any country in the ME, and is ready for normalisation with Iran.

As for Zionism, you clearly do not understand what it means and feed from cheap anti-Semite propaganda. In short, Zionism is giving the Jewish people the right for self determination (which is the right of any nation in the world) in his historic homeland. Comparing Zionism to Nazism is not just a degraded lie but it is revolting and say more about the one who makes this accusation than on Zionism.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You conveniently ignore the situation between Israel and Iran. Israel is ready for full normalisation with Iran and for a peace agreement that will remove any concern in Iran about Israel because Israel has no conflict with Iran and never had. The problem is Iran's reactionary regime which reject any recognition in Israel - and the link to the video clearly exemplify it.


*
You conveniently ignore that along with Iran most of the world view the israeli government as a 'reactionary regime' with nukes.*



nirreich said:


> You persistently trying not to comprehend that no matter what Israel will do or not do the current Iranian regime would still aspire to destroy it because it believes (like most of the people in the ME) that there is no place to a Jewish-nation state in this region. So, your talking about a nuclear arms race are just empty words: even the Iranian regime does not say that if Israel is nuke-free than it will abandon its intentions to eliminate it.



*Instead of painting hypothetical scenario eliminate your nukes and then see what happens. Deeds are what counts, words are of little value.*

In conclusion, on one side you have a regime in Iran which rejects any recognition of Israel even if there be a Palestinian state and even if Israel is without nuclear weapons. Iran's nuclear programme is hardly a nuclear arms race but developing doomsday means by a regime which destabilise the region and wants to eliminate a legitimate country. On the other hand, Israel never used any WMD in order to destabilise Arab regimes or threatened to eliminate any country in the ME, and is ready for normalisation with Iran.



nirreich said:


> As for Zionism, you clearly do not understand what it means and feed from cheap anti-Semite propaganda. In short, Zionism is giving the Jewish people the right for self determination (which is the right of any nation in the world) in his historic homeland. Comparing Zionism to Nazism is not just a degraded lie but it is revolting and say more about the one who makes this accusation than on Zionism.



*I'm sure the Nazis said the same thing about Nazism.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> You conveniently ignore that along with Iran most of the world view the israeli government as a 'reactionary regime' with nukes.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Instead of painting hypothetical scenario eliminate your nukes and then see what happens. Deeds are what counts, words are of little value.*
> 
> In conclusion, on one side you have a regime in Iran which rejects any recognition of Israel even if there be a Palestinian state and even if Israel is without nuclear weapons. Iran's nuclear programme is hardly a nuclear arms race but developing doomsday means by a regime which destabilise the region and wants to eliminate a legitimate country. On the other hand, Israel never used any WMD in order to destabilise Arab regimes or threatened to eliminate any country in the ME, and is ready for normalisation with Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm sure the Nazis said the same thing about Nazism.*



It is very simple:

I argued that Iran wants to eliminate Israel without any connection to the nuclear issue. Prove me wrong.

If you can't and I am right, then your argument that Israel encourage a nuclear arms race is completely false.

You suggestion that Israel should dismantle is absurd: Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons, and you believe that if Israel gives up its main deterrence against Iran that would convince Iran to dismantle too. Why exactly?


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## Rupeshkumar

############

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> It is very simple:
> 
> I argued that Iran wants to eliminate Israel without any connection to the nuclear issue. Prove me wrong.
> 
> If you can't and I am right, then your argument that Israel encourage a nuclear arms race is completely false.
> 
> You suggestion that Israel should dismantle is absurd: Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons, and you believe that if Israel gives up its main deterrence against Iran that would convince Iran to dismantle too. Why exactly?



*What I said prove that it isn't so, or else I'm right!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *What I said prove that it isn't so, or else I'm right!*



You lost me.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You lost me.


*
Good riddance!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Good riddance!*



Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not going anywhere. I meant that your replay was even more unintelligibly than usual.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not going anywhere. I meant that your replay was even more unintelligibly than usual.


*
Since you're nowhere near proving me wrong your theory proves me right! It's time to demolish the israeli nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Since you're nowhere near proving me wrong your theory proves me right! It's time to demolish the israeli nukes.*



Proving that you are completely wrong was a child play. Making you listen and overcome your sense of denial is a completely different game.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Proving that you are completely wrong was a child play. Making you listen and overcome your sense of denial is a completely different game.



*You live in a world of denial and your days of reckoning are not too far away, you don't have to wait too long to reap what you've sown. The days of israel's nuclear blackmail is almost over.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You live in a world of denial and your days of reckoning are not too far away, you don't have to wait too long to reap what you've sown. The days of israel's nuclear blackmail is almost over.*



Clearly I touched a sensitive point about your denial situation, but let us get back to the issue.

It is very simple:

I argued that Iran wants to eliminate Israel without any connection to the nuclear issue. Prove me wrong.

If you can't and I am right, then your argument that Israel encourage a nuclear arms race is completely false.

Your suggestion that Israel should dismantle is absurd: Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons, and you believe that if Israel gives up its main deterrence against Iran that would convince Iran to dismantle too. Why exactly?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Clearly I touched a sensitive point about your denial situation, but let us get back to the issue.
> 
> It is very simple:
> 
> I argued that Iran wants to eliminate Israel without any connection to the nuclear issue. Prove me wrong.
> 
> If you can't and I am right, then your argument that Israel encourage a nuclear arms race is completely false.
> 
> Your suggestion that Israel should dismantle is absurd: Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons, and you believe that if Israel gives up its main deterrence against Iran that would convince Iran to dismantle too. Why exactly?


*
Not so fast, I say Iran's nuclear drive has nothing to do with eliminating the zionist nazi entity. Prove me wrong. Prove, if you can, that the israeli nukes have brought peace in the ME.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Not so fast, I say Iran's nuclear drive has nothing to do with eliminating the zionist nazi entity. Prove me wrong. Prove, if you can, that the israeli nukes have brought peace in the ME.*



finally we are in agreement: you agree that Iran's nuclear programme is not specifically connected to Israel or its image as a nuclear weapons country. We are in disagreement about what they might do when Iran will have nukes.

Israel's image as a nuclear weapons country indeed brought more stability to the region: it made the Arabs think twice before waging another round of war against Israel.

The current instability in the ME and past instabilities have no connection with Israel so-called nukes. If you disagree please give just one example for a conflict or a war in ME which started as a result of Israel's nukes.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> finally we are in agreement: you agree that Iran's nuclear programme is not specifically connected to Israel or its image as a nuclear weapons country. We are in disagreement about what they might do when Iran will have nukes.


*
Shylock, must you twist everything we say? I said, "Iran's nuclear drive has nothing to do with eliminating the zionist nazi entity," it has everything to do with countering the israeli nukes. Now, I know, you can never prove me wrong but you're definitely going to continue twisting the truth with your deceptions and lies. That's the only thing zionists like you are good at.*



nirreich said:


> Israel's image as a nuclear weapons country indeed brought more stability to the region: it made the Arabs think twice before waging another round of war against Israel.
> 
> The current instability in the ME and past instabilities have no connection with Israel so-called nukes. If you disagree please give just one example for a conflict or a war in ME which started as a result of Israel's nukes.



*A war is being imposed upon Iran and a zionist liar says israel's nukes have brought peace in the ME, now that is the height of treachery and we're not surprised by such treacherous statement from a zionist liar like you.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Shylock, must you twist everything we say? I said, "Iran's nuclear drive has nothing to do with eliminating the zionist nazi entity," it has everything to do with countering the israeli nukes. Now, I know, you can never prove me wrong but you're definitely going to continue twisting the truth with your deceptions and lies. That's the only thing zionists like you are good at.*
> 
> 
> *A war is being imposed upon Iran and a zionist liar says israel's nukes have brought peace in the ME, now that is the height of treachery and we're not surprised by such treacherous statement from a zionist liar like you.*




My little anti-Semite,

Please stop manoeuvring and give me just one tiny example how Israel's so-called nukes caused to a conflict or a war or anything like that.

As for Iran, you do not believe its leaders when they say they want to destroy Israel? Are they joking and I do not understand their sense of humour?

If a war broke out, it will be because of Iran's nuclear ambitions. As you clearly noticed, Iran's objectives are far greater than just eliminating Israel, but controlling the ME and its oil reserves. You prefer Iran with its murderous regime as a superpower with nuclear weapons. Forgive those of us who are a bit reluctant to live with a nuclear Iran spreading terror and hatred according to the values of its Islamic revolution.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My little anti-Semite,
> 
> Please stop manoeuvring and give me just one tiny example how Israel's so-called nukes caused to a conflict or a war or anything like that.
> 
> As for Iran, you do not believe its leaders when they say they want to destroy Israel? Are they joking and I do not understand their sense of humour?
> 
> If a war broke out, it will be because of Iran's nuclear ambitions. As you clearly noticed, Iran's objectives are far greater than just eliminating Israel, but controlling the ME and its oil reserves. You prefer Iran with its murderous regime as a superpower with nuclear weapons. Forgive those of us who are a bit reluctant to live with a nuclear Iran spreading terror and hatred according to the values of its Islamic revolution.



*Shylock, as usual, you have shied away from the fact that Iran is trying to develop a deterrent to israel's nukes. Without any evidence you talk of iran's desire to control the ME when in reality israel with uncle sam's puppets is trying its best to control the ME. You talk of starting a war, well, the war never ended in the ME to begin with and the stakes are much higher now with the introduction of the israeli nukes in the ME. Don't take this forum as your regular Washington DC opera, you simply can't get away with your zionist lies.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Shylock, as usual, you have shied away from the fact that Iran is trying to develop a deterrent to israel's nukes. Without any evidence you talk of iran's desire to control the ME when in reality israel with uncle sam's puppets is trying its best to control the ME. You talk of starting a war, well, the war never ended in the ME to begin with and the stakes are much higher now with the introduction of the israeli nukes in the ME. Don't take this forum as your regular Washington DC opera, you simply can't get away with your zionist lies.*



As long as you reply, I can get away with everything. You never prove anything nor confront any of my arguments with facts, only with anti-Semite slanders

if you want to know more about Iran's desire to control the ME just go to your Arab friends and they tell you all about it. Just see how Iran try to undermine Arab regimes in Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and Bahrain, How Iran supports the murderous regime of Syria which butcher its own women and children. You should ask KSA and Egypt why they so afraid from Iran and its ambitions, they should turn to you and realise that their fears are for nothing.

If you are so confident in your belief that Israel's alleged nukes are the source of instability in the ME, then why it is so difficult for you to give a single evident for that? If you think that Iran's nuclear programme is only to deter Israel, then why Iran was Israel's ally until 1979 when Israel was already considered as a nuclear weapons state, and Iran did not even imagine to deter Israel?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> As long as you reply, I can get away with everything. You never prove anything nor confront any of my arguments with facts, only with anti-Semite slanders
> 
> if you want to know more about Iran's desire to control the ME just go to your Arab friends and they tell you all about it. Just see how Iran try to undermine Arab regimes in Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and Bahrain, How Iran supports the murderous regime of Syria which butcher its own women and children. You should ask KSA and Egypt why they so afraid from Iran and its ambitions, they should turn to you and realise that their fears are for nothing.
> 
> If you are so confident in your belief that Israel's alleged nukes are the source of instability in the ME, then why it is so difficult for you to give a single evident for that? If you think that Iran's nuclear programme is only to deter Israel, then why Iran was Israel's ally until 1979 when Israel was already considered as a nuclear weapons state, and Iran did not even imagine to deter Israel?




*Shylock, just show how I never prove anything, you cannot. You just twist and spin to get away from the facts. You're a classic coward who thinks that the world is blind to the threat posed by the zionist nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Shylock, just show how I never prove anything, you cannot. You just twist and spin to get away from the facts. You're a classic coward who thinks that the world is blind to the threat posed by the zionist nukes.*



Your reply is a perfect example for your cowardice. You did not confront any of my arguments or answered any of my questions. 

You just like to lie and to slander, so enjoy yourself.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Your reply is a perfect example for your cowardice. You did not confront any of my arguments or answered any of my questions.
> 
> You just like to lie and to slander, so enjoy yourself.


*
Yes, I enjoy telling the truth on the face of a lying zionist. With all your lies deceit you cannot hide the terrible threat posed by the israeli nukes!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yes, I enjoy telling the truth on the face of a lying zionist. With all your lies deceit you cannot hide the terrible threat posed by the israeli nukes!*



I cannot hide something which does not exist, enjoy swimming in your own drivel.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I cannot hide something which does not exist, enjoy swimming in your own drivel.


*
In 1967 the west claimed that the israeli nukes did not exist but it did. What is non-existent is what you portray as a threat. The west says that the israeli nukes do not pose a threat because they are not pointed towards them. Just as india sees the Chinese nukes as a threat to it, Iran and other Arab states see the israeli nukes in the same light. You do understand it, but then again, you wouldn't remain a lying zionist if you accepted the truth. So, we don't give a damn to what a zionist like thinks or says.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> In 1967 the west claimed that the israeli nukes did not exist but it did. What is non-existent is what you portray as a threat. The west says that the israeli nukes do not pose a threat because they are not pointed towards them. Just as india sees the Chinese nukes as a threat to it, Iran and other Arab states see the israeli nukes in the same light. You do understand it, but then again, you wouldn't remain a lying zionist if you accepted the truth. So, we don't give a damn to what a zionist like thinks or says.*



Israel is the only country which is perceived as a nuclear weapons state which not only never threatened to use nukes against any of its neighbours, but even never admitted that it has nukes. So how countries in the ME can be threatened without any threat? Again just give me one example of Israeli use of its WMD to pressurise one of its neighbours or Israeli nukes as the reason for a conflict or a war in the ME.

You constantly avoiding delivering any example because you know the truth (and making all the lyings just to cover it): Israel and its so-called nukes are the smallest problem of the ME.

BTW, the West did not claim anything in 1967. Actually the US pressurised Israel to dismantle its nuclear programme, but you did not know this because instead of educating yourself you prefer to tell blunted lies.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Israel is the only country which is perceived as a nuclear weapons state which not only never threatened to use nukes against any of its neighbours, but even never admitted that it has nukes. So how countries in the ME can be threatened without any threat? Again just give me one example of Israeli use of its WMD to pressurise one of its neighbours or Israeli nukes as the reason for a conflict or a war in the ME.
> 
> You constantly avoiding delivering any example because you know the truth (and making all the lyings just to cover it): Israel and its so-called nukes are the smallest problem of the ME.
> 
> BTW, the West did not claim anything in 1967. Actually the US pressurised Israel to dismantle its nuclear programme, but you did not know this because instead of educating yourself you prefer to tell blunted lies.



*I have given example of your lies in the last post as well, but of course, what is it to a liar? You say israel has never threatened to use its nukes and then you say israel has never admitted that it possessed nukes. Do I have to go any further to show what a great liar you are, shylock?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *I have given example of your lies in the last post as well, but of course, what is it to a liar? You say israel has never threatened to use its nukes and then you say israel has never admitted that it possessed nukes. Do I have to go any further to show what a great liar you are, shylock?*



What exactly is the lie? Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes. Prove otherwise.

Because you are so used to lies you cannot notice simple facts any more .


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What exactly is the lie? Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes. Prove otherwise.
> 
> Because you are so used to lies you cannot notice simple facts any more .


*
Listen, shylock, you lie to yourself. If you cannot figure it out it's because you're an idiot.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Listen, shylock, you lie to yourself. If you cannot figure it out it's because you're an idiot.*



Who is the bigger idiot: someone who lies or someone like yourself who cannot never prove they are lies?

I repeat: Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes.

This is a fact which only an idiot like you can even dare argue about it.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Who is the bigger idiot: someone who lies or someone like yourself who cannot never prove they are lies?
> 
> I repeat: Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes.
> 
> This is a fact which only an idiot like you can even dare argue about it.



*If you say israel has never threatened to use nukes it implies that it has nukes, period. Zionist idiots like you force people to be blunt!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *If you say israel has never threatened to use nukes it implies that it has nukes, period. Zionist idiots like you force people to be blunt!*



Stinking anti-Semite like you also force people to be rude.

You do not need to have nukes in order to threaten to use them: Iran implies to use nukes, Iraq of Saddam did the same and so North Korea and Pakistan even before they had nuke. It called deterrence.

As I said, Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes. This is a fact!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Stinking anti-Semite like you also force people to be rude.


*
Coming from a zionist nazi, now, that's funny!*



nirreich said:


> You do not need to have nukes in order to threaten to use them: Iraq of Saddam did the same


*
Are you saying israel is bluffing? BTW Saddam never claimed that he had nukes, it was a false claim made by the lying americans and the brits.*




nirreich said:


> Iran implies to use nukes,



*Just another example of your zionist lie; Iran has always been saying that it has no intention of possessing nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Coming from a zionist nazi, now, that's funny!*
> 
> 
> *
> Are you saying israel is bluffing? BTW Saddam never claimed that he had nukes, it was a false claim made by the lying americans and the brits.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Just another example of your zionist lie; Iran has always been saying that it has no intention of possessing nukes.*



both Iran and Saddam (before the 1991) implied that if they be attacked they would use might force to destroy the West and particularly burn Israel to the ground.

I do not know if Israel is bluffing or not, and you too do not know if Israel has nukes or not.

Iran's lies that it will not posses nukes are the same lies we heard from Pakistan and North Korea before they developed nuclear weapons. I do not believe the Iranian propaganda, feel free to be a fool of this rogue regime.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> both Iran and Saddam (before the 1991) implied that if they be attacked they would use might force to destroy the West and particularly burn Israel to the ground.



*They threatened to use what? I don't see the word 'nuke' in your post. You're full of deceit!*



nirreich said:


> I do not know if Israel is bluffing or not, and you too do not know if Israel has nukes or not.



*In your earlier post you said israel's nukes prevented another war, that the israeli nukes have brought stability in the ME, and now you're saying you do not know if israel possesses nukes! How many times do you have to prove that you're a liar, shylock?*



nirreich said:


> Iran's lies that it will not posses nukes are the same lies we heard from Pakistan and North Korea before they developed nuclear weapons. I do not believe the Iranian propaganda, feel free to be a fool of this rogue regime.


*
It is the same lie we heard from israel for quite some time, of course, it got busted by Vanunu.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *They threatened to use what? I don't see the word 'nuke' in your post. You're full of deceit!*
> 
> 
> 
> *In your earlier post you said israel's nukes prevented another war, that the israeli nukes have brought stability in the ME, and now you're saying you do not know if israel possesses nukes! How many times do you have to prove that you're a liar, shylock?*
> 
> 
> *
> It is the same lie we heard from israel for quite some time, of course, it got busted by Vanunu.*



I know that you are an imbecile anti-Semite, but I did not know you have difficulties to read simple sentences. You are more clotted than a clotted cream. 

I specifically said that both Iran and Saddam implied that they can burn Israel and they did not use the word nuke, but this is the only way to do it.

The perception of Israel as a nuclear weapons state deterred its Arab foes from launching more attacks against it, but I did not say that Israel has nuclear weapons. I do not know what Israel has or has not.

Unlike Pakistan, North Korea, and Iran Israel never denied it developed nuclear weapons but it also never approved it. Israel only committed not to be the first to present nuclear weapons in the ME.

As I said and you refuse to understand, Israel's so-called nukes are the smallest threat to the ME. Concentrate your energy to prevent Iran from getting nukes and destabilise the region.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I know that you are an imbecile anti-Semite, but I did not know you have difficulties to read simple sentences. You are more clotted than a clotted cream.
> 
> I specifically said that both Iran and Saddam implied that they can burn Israel and they did not use the word nuke, but this is the only way to do it.
> 
> The perception of Israel as a nuclear weapons state deterred its Arab foes from launching more attacks against it, but I did not say that Israel has nuclear weapons. I do not know what Israel has or has not.
> 
> Unlike Pakistan, North Korea, and Iran Israel never denied it developed nuclear weapons but it also never approved it. Israel only committed not to be the first to present nuclear weapons in the ME.
> 
> As I said and you refuse to understand, Israel's so-called nukes are the smallest threat to the ME. Concentrate your energy to prevent Iran from getting nukes and destabilise the region.



*Shylock, you're totally devoid of shame and decency, thus you twist not only what others say but also what you say when they show what you are. No matter, how well you lie, three fourth of the world's population will always see the isareli nukes as the gravest threat to world peace.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Shylock, you're totally devoid of shame and decency, thus you twist not only what others say but also what you say when they show what you are. No matter, how well you lie, three fourth of the world's population will always see the isareli nukes as the gravest threat to world peace.*



I clearly showed you facts, but you anti-Semite eyes are blind to the truth. You never listen to reason.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I clearly showed you facts, but you anti-Semite eyes are blind to the truth. You never listen to reason.


 
*Israel points nukes at its neighbours and you say it poses no threat, to a zionist liar it may be 'reason' but to reasonable people it is a pure lie. It is nuclear blackmail but liars like you are trying to sell it as a peace-drive.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Israel points nukes at its neighbours and you say it poses no threat, to a zionist liar it may be 'reason' but to reasonable people it is a pure lie. It is nuclear blackmail but liars like you are trying to sell it as a peace-drive.*



My "genius" anti-Semite,

If it is a nuclear blackmail, please elaborate what Israel is blackmailing and from which countries.

What about to possibility that Iran will use nuclear blackmail? Or nuclear blackmail is allowed to any country which is not Israel?


----------



## Peregrine

The only way to deal with Izzraeli nukes is to give nukes to her neighboring states.


----------



## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> The only way to deal with Izzraeli nukes is to give nukes to her neighboring states.



There is no need to deal with Israel so-called nukes like there is no urgent to deal with France nuclear weapons.

Giving nukes to rogue states in the ME which have no problem to kill their own people is the last thing someone should do if he wants the humane race to continue to exist.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> There is no need to deal with Israel so-called nukes like there is no urgent to deal with France nuclear weapons.
> 
> Giving nukes to rogue states in the ME which have no problem to kill their own people is the last thing someone should do if he wants the humane race to continue to exist.


*
Shylock, mark my words, you and your zionist state won't be able to prevent others getting a deterrent to the israeli nukes! Your nuclear blackmail is almost over and you can go and whine about it as long as you want.*


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My "genius" anti-Semite,
> 
> If it is a nuclear blackmail, please elaborate what Israel is blackmailing and from which countries.



*Yeah, I'll tell you that first tell me what will you do after I tell you that?*



nirreich said:


> What about to possibility that Iran will use nuclear blackmail? Or nuclear blackmail is allowed to any country which is not Israel?


*
Why should only israel be allowed to use nuclear blackmail?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Yeah, I'll tell you that first tell me what will you do after I tell you that?*
> 
> 
> *
> Why should only israel be allowed to use nuclear blackmail?*



You want to know my reaction to your answer? Then stop running and answer my question and I promise that my reply will follow.

What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?

Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You want to know my reaction to your answer? Then stop running and answer my question and I promise that my reply will follow.
> 
> What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?
> 
> Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?



*It's you who's running away, answer my question first, you zionist liar!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *It's you who's running away, answer my question first, you zionist liar!*



You are dumb as a doorknob.

You want me to know in advance what my reply will be to your answer to my question? Do you know how stupid your request is?

Just answer my questions and you will have my reply.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are dumb as a doorknob.
> 
> You want me to know in advance what my reply will be to your answer to my question? Do you know how stupid your request is?
> 
> Just answer my questions and you will have my reply.


*
I didn't ask what your reply will be, I asked what you're going to do after I answer. Are you going to convert and become a human being? So, answer my question and I'll answer yours.
*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> I didn't ask what your reply will be, I asked what you're going to do after I answer. Are you going to convert and become a human being? So, answer my question and I'll answer yours.
> *



I answered your question, so stop playing on time and for once give an honest answer. If by "human being" you mean a rotten anti-Semite then you know the answer yourself.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I answered your question, so stop playing on time and for once give an honest answer. If by "human being" you mean a rotten anti-Semite then you know the answer yourself.



*No, you haven't answered my question. By 'human being' I mean a real human being not a rotten zionist nazi. Now, answer my question.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *No, you haven't answered my question. By 'human being' I mean a real human being not a rotten zionist nazi. Now, answer my question.*



What exactly is your question? Am I going to change and see the light because of an anti-Semite finally answered my question? WTF?

When will you stop dicking around and give simple answers to simple questions:

What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?

Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What exactly is your question? Am I going to change and see the light because of an anti-Semite finally answered my question? WTF?
> 
> When will you stop dicking around and give simple answers to simple questions:
> 
> What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?
> 
> Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?


*
The last question validates the fact that israel is using nuclear blackmail or else why would you ask why I'm against it? And I'll answer your first question only if you answer my following questions first and I'm repeating my questions: are you going ask the isareli government to dismantle its nukes? Are you going to ask the israeli government to stop its illegal occupation of Palestine? Are you, as a person, ready to abandon your beastly and wicked ways? Now, don't run away from my questions like a little girl!*


----------



## nirreich

Here is your answers:

I will ask my government to come clean and expose its WMD only when the existence of my country will not be threatened by any country or faction in the ME.

I will never ask my country to stop the "illegal occupation of Palestine" because there is no such thing and accepting this demand means the elimination of Israel. Israel was established as the Jewish nation state in the Jewish historic homeland, and the Palestinians can have an independent country next to Israel and not instead of it.

As for your third question, you are the last who can judge me in the light of your manipulations and trolling all through this thread. I reject your claims about my "wicked way" and I tried and still trying to have a sincere discussion and present legitimate and honest arguments. You do not have to agree with my opinions, but blaming me for being dishonest is absurd.

Now, are you going finally to answer my questions or do you have more stalling tactics and let me quote you: "run like a little girl"? BTW my second question is no way an admission that Israel blackmail its neighbours with its WMD. If you think this is the situation and you condemn it so strongly, then why you are happy to accept that Iran will be able to do the same despicable thing?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Here is your answers:
> 
> I will ask my government to come clean and expose its WMD only when the existence of my country will not be threatened by any country or faction in the ME.
> 
> I will never ask my country to stop the "illegal occupation of Palestine" because there is no such thing and accepting this demand means the elimination of Israel. Israel was established as the Jewish nation state in the Jewish historic homeland, and the Palestinians can have an independent country next to Israel and not instead of it.
> 
> As for your third question, you are the last who can judge me in the light of your manipulations and trolling all through this thread. I reject your claims about my "wicked way" and I tried and still trying to have a sincere discussion and present legitimate and honest arguments. You do not have to agree with my opinions, but blaming me for being dishonest is absurd.
> 
> Now, are you going finally to answer my questions or do you have more stalling tactics and let me quote you: "run like a little girl"? BTW my second question is no way an admission that Israel blackmail its neighbours with its WMD. If you think this is the situation and you condemn it so strongly, then why you are happy to accept that Iran will be able to do the same despicable thing?



*All your answers are 'no' and you expect straight answer from me? Americans have disclosed that israel was about to use its nukes in 1973 and that is what nuclear blackmail is all about. In a conventional war if the Arabs achieve victory israel has the option to use its nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *All your answers are 'no' and you expect straight answer from me? Americans have disclosed that israel was about to use its nukes in 1973 and that is what nuclear blackmail is all about. In a conventional war if the Arabs achieve victory israel has the option to use its nukes.*



You call Israel's right to prevent its elimination "nuclear blackmail"? Israel blackmailing the Arabs not to destroy it? Indeed, Israel is the source of all evil.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You call Israel's right to prevent its elimination "nuclear blackmail"? Israel blackmailing the Arabs not to destroy it? Indeed, Israel is the source of all evil.



*In 1973, israel did not face total destruction, it was about to use nukes to prevent an Egyptian victory in the Sinai.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *In 1973, israel did not face total destruction, it was about to use nukes to prevent an Egyptian victory in the Sinai.*



In the 1973 War it was feared that the Israeli Army was on the verge of collapse and then nothing will stop Egypt to invade into the heart of Israel. If the government did delivered a massage to the Americans (and there controversies about it), it was in order to prevent the destruction of the country.

In any case, what blackmailing got to do with it? Even if accepting your argument, Egypt and Syria launched unprovoked attack on Israel after three years of a ceasefire, and Israel prevented them from defeating its forces, what exactly Israel blackmailed from them? Its total military defeat?

BTW, eventually, Israel win the 1973 War only by conventional capabilities and the war ended when the Israelis Army was only 100km from Cairo and 35km from Damascus.

This is the only case of "nuclear blackmail" you have got against Israel? for more than 40 years Israel is believed to have nukes and that is it? A threat to use WMD if it be defeated in a war more than 30 years ago? This is the main reason why Iran should develop nukes?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> In the 1973 War it was feared that the Israeli Army was on the verge of collapse and then nothing will stop Egypt to invade into the heart of Israel. If the government did delivered a massage to the Americans (and there controversies about it), it was in order to prevent the destruction of the country.
> 
> In any case, what blackmailing got to do with it? Even if accepting your argument, Egypt and Syria launched unprovoked attack on Israel after three years of a ceasefire, and Israel prevented them from defeating its forces, what exactly Israel blackmailed from them? Its total military defeat?
> 
> BTW, eventually, Israel win the 1973 War only by conventional capabilities and the war ended when the Israelis Army was only 100km from Cairo and 35km from Damascus.
> 
> This is the only case of "nuclear blackmail" you have got against Israel? for more than 40 years Israel is believed to have nukes and that is it? A threat to use WMD if it be defeated in a war more than 30 years ago? This is the main reason why Iran should develop nukes?



*
No, in 1973 the israeli army was not about to collapse, it faced defeat in Sinai. The message is clear, if its adversaries ever put israel in a position of where defeat is imminent israel will use its nukes, but if its neigbours are faced with defeats they have no such option to prevent the defeat. This nuclear blackmail of israel must end.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> No, in 1973 the israeli army was not about to collapse, it faced defeat in Sinai. The message is clear, if its adversaries ever put israel in a position of where defeat is imminent israel will use its nukes, but if its neigbours are faced with defeats they have no such option to prevent the defeat. This nuclear blackmail of israel must end.*



Again, according to the reports the use with a threat of nuclear weapons (which is still far from using nukes) was allegedly delivered to the Americans when the Israeli leadership thought that the military is going to be defeated and nothing will stop the Arab armies to eliminate Israel. Of course today we know better but what we know now wan not known the Israel in 1973.

As I said, even if I agree with you presentation of the situation, this is hardly a nuclear blackmail. Israel prevented its military defeat, but never used the perception of it being a nuclear country to force the Arabs to jeopardise their own interests. Moreover, if Israel wanted to use nuclear blackmail then the logic thing to do is to declare that it is a nuclear weapons country, and as you well aware Israel behaved exactly to the contrary.

Furthermore the 1973 incident is an isolated one which present extreme circumstances, and you cannot use just one example to say that Israel use nuclear blackmail. If this is the excuse of Iran's nuclear ambitions then it is very feeble.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Again, according to the reports the use with a threat of nuclear weapons (which is still far from using nukes) was allegedly delivered to the Americans when the Israeli leadership thought that the military is going to be defeated and nothing will stop the Arab armies to eliminate Israel. Of course today we know better but what we know now wan not known the Israel in 1973.
> 
> As I said, even if I agree with you presentation of the situation, this is hardly a nuclear blackmail. Israel prevented its military defeat, but never used the perception of it being a nuclear country to force the Arabs to jeopardise their own interests. Moreover, if Israel wanted to use nuclear blackmail then the logic thing to do is to declare that it is a nuclear weapons country, and as you well aware Israel behaved exactly to the contrary.
> 
> Furthermore the 1973 incident is an isolated one which present extreme circumstances, and you cannot use just one example to say that Israel use nuclear blackmail. If this is the excuse of Iran's nuclear ambitions then it is very feeble.



*
There's no such thing as 'isolated' incident as far as threat from the israeli nukes is concerned. To a zionist the israeli nuclear blackmail will certainly look like a fair game, after all, a zionist qualifies as a champion in hypocrisy, but to the rest of the world, it is viewed as nuclear blackmail.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> There's no such thing as 'isolated' incident as far as threat from the israeli nukes is concerned. To a zionist the israeli nuclear blackmail will certainly look like a fair game, after all, a zionist qualifies as a champion in hypocrisy, but to the rest of the world, it is viewed as nuclear blackmail.*



Of course it is isolated because this is the only example you have and it happened during a severe military conflict in extreme situation and almost 40 years ago. If this is not an isolated incident, that please define what an isolated incident is.

Israel cannot nuclear blackmail when it even does not declare it has nuclear weapons. How can it blackmail anyone with something it is not ready to admit it even has?

A nuclear blackmail is what Iran plans to do once it will successfully develop nuclear weapons: it will use it as a nuclear umbrella and deterrence for terror organisations operating against Israel, like Hamas and Hisbuallha, and for its terror group which aspire to overthrow Arab regimes in the ME. But of course judging from your anti-Semitism and double standards so far you do not have a problem with nuclear blackmail as long as Israel is not behind it.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Of course it is isolated because this is the only example you have and it happened during a severe military conflict in extreme situation and almost 40 years ago. If this is not an isolated incident, that please define what an isolated incident is.
> 
> Israel cannot nuclear blackmail when it even does not declare it has nuclear weapons. How can it blackmail anyone with something it is not ready to admit it even has?
> 
> A nuclear blackmail is what Iran plans to do once it will successfully develop nuclear weapons: it will use it as a nuclear umbrella and deterrence for terror organisations operating against Israel, like Hamas and Hisbuallha, and for its terror group which aspire to overthrow Arab regimes in the ME. But of course judging from your anti-Semitism and double standards so far you do not have a problem with nuclear blackmail as long as Israel is not behind it.


*
No it is not, what was true for Egypt, is true for Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and even Iran. So, the threat from these israeli nukes is unacceptable.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> No it is not, what was true for Egypt, is true for Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and even Iran. So, the threat from these israeli nukes is unacceptable.*



What threat? That if Egypt, Iran, KSA, Jordan and Syria launch a surprise military attack to defeat Israel, Israel might threat to use nukes because it might think (with good reasons) that they want to destroy it?

I have an idea: the Arabs and Iran avoid trying to defeat Israel and threat its existence and they can relax and not fear any Israeli nuclear threat. Can they hold their ambitions to attack and defeat Israel and destroy it? If not, do you suggest that Israel should commit suicide a let the Arabs defeat it?


----------



## Zabaniyah

Well, it's understandable why Israel would want to go for nukes. They had it for a long time. Maintained 'opacity'. Then, the USA would have no problem. 

They have neither officially declared nukes nor denied them. Only they have hinted them.

Although, there's bias on the US side. Why all the fuss over Iran's nuclear program? Iran has its own reasons to go for nuclear (both civilian and military) development. It has a long and powerful history where USA was not even alive back then. 

The key question is: Why should Israel be the only Middle Eastern nation with nuclear weapons? 

It becomes unfair for the other 'wannabe' regional powers. 

Nuclear weapons are not for conventional purposes, it's a deterrent for which it is used as the last resort. 

Should IAEA deal with Israel's nukes? Frankly, it's an irrelevant question since it's more or less an irrelevant organization.


----------



## nirreich

Zabaniya said:


> Well, it's understandable why Israel would want to go for nukes. They had it for a long time. Maintained 'opacity'. Then, the USA would have no problem.
> 
> They have neither officially declared nukes nor denied them. Only they have hinted them.
> 
> Although, there's bias on the US side. Why all the fuss over Iran's nuclear program? Iran has its own reasons to go for nuclear (both civilian and military) development. It has a long and powerful history where USA was not even alive back then.
> 
> The key question is: Why should Israel be the only Middle Eastern nation with nuclear weapons?
> 
> It becomes unfair for the other 'wannabe' regional powers.
> 
> Nuclear weapons are not for conventional purposes, it's a deterrent for which it is used as the last resort.
> 
> Should IAEA deal with Israel's nukes? Frankly, it's an irrelevant question since it's more or less an irrelevant organization.



In a perfect world of liberty and democracy maybe the considerations you presented were relevant. The world is not based on justice and what a country has the right to have. It is based on balance of powers and the main objective should be the preserve its stability even in the price that rogue regimes like Iran are be blocked from developing nuclear weapons. This is a price we definitely can live with, while nuclear war seems a bit bigger cost to humanity than that.


----------



## Zabaniyah

nirreich said:


> In a perfect world of liberty and democracy maybe the considerations you presented were relevant. The world is not based on justice and what a country has the right to have. It is based on balance of powers and the main objective should be the preserve its stability even in the price that rogue regimes like Iran are be blocked from developing nuclear weapons. This is a price we definitely can live with, while nuclear war seems a bit bigger cost to humanity than that.



Iran is a rogue regime in what sense? 

There's no such thing as a 'perfect world'. 

From the American point of view or from the practical Israeli point of view? You know, it was said that Israel did help Iran during the Iran-Iraq war  

Might as well you two find something in common rather than always licking Uncle Sam's boot  

It was the US that had a huge grudge against the Iranian regime for over 30 years, not exactly the other way around. Iran may not actually have or be willing to go for active nukes, but they have the finger prints for the technology. 

Even during the Clinton administration, they used a Russian scientist to give Iran fake nuclear technology information, and the Iranians figured it out from there. 
Bill Clinton and CIA Gave Iranians Blueprint for Nuclear Bomb - National Ledger

There are plenty of examples of sheer stupidity, fanboyism and over confidence of the American axis of leadership. 

If Uncle Sam does keep threatening Iran, then they might as well go for them. The only thing the Americans are doing now is arming neighboring Gulf States and antagonize them against Iran.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...saudi-arabia/2011/12/28/gIQAN55CNP_story.html

The Middle East is a big source of revenue for the US-based arms manufacturers, one of the few viable export oriented industries in the US. And considering the bleak economic outlook of the US, this trend will continue for a long time. The US cannot afford to open a new war front in the Middle East. 

My recommendation to Israel is to find common ground with Iran, rather than always licking America's boot 24/7. They have their own issues against that may not exactly be relevant to Israel.


----------



## nirreich

Zabaniya said:


> Iran is a rogue regime in what sense?
> 
> There's no such thing as a 'perfect world'.
> 
> From the American point of view or from the practical Israeli point of view? You know, it was said that Israel did help Iran during the Iran-Iraq war
> 
> Might as well you two find something in common rather than always licking Uncle Sam's boot
> 
> It was the US that had a huge grudge against the Iranian regime for over 30 years, not exactly the other way around. Iran may not actually have or be willing to go for active nukes, but they have the finger prints for the technology.
> 
> Even during the Clinton administration, they used a Russian scientist to give Iran fake nuclear technology information, and the Iranians figured it out from there.
> Bill Clinton and CIA Gave Iranians Blueprint for Nuclear Bomb - National Ledger
> 
> There are plenty of examples of sheer stupidity, fanboyism and over confidence of the American axis of leadership.
> 
> If Uncle Sam does keep threatening Iran, then they might as well go for them. The only thing the Americans are doing now is arming neighboring Gulf States and antagonize them against Iran.
> AP sources: US to sell $30 billion worth of F-15 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia - The Washington Post
> 
> The Middle East is a big source of revenue for the US-based arms manufacturers, one of the few viable export oriented industries in the US. And considering the bleak economic outlook of the US, this trend will continue for a long time. The US cannot afford to open a new war front in the Middle East.
> 
> My recommendation to Israel is to find common ground with Iran, rather than always licking America's boot 24/7. They have their own issues against that may not exactly be relevant to Israel.



Most of what you wrote is irrelevant to the subject, so I will just follow your last point: What common ground Israel should find with a regime which threatens to destroy it and refuse to accept the legitimacy of its existence?


----------



## Zabaniyah

nirreich said:


> Most of what you wrote is irrelevant to the subject, so I will just follow your last point: What common ground Israel should find with a regime which threatens to destroy it and refuse to accept the legitimacy of its existence?



What just what is 'irrelevant' according to you? Bill Clinton did give nuclear technology to Iran just to display he's smart. 

Does the 'wipe Israel off the map' motto have to strictly apply realistically?

Even if Iran nukes Israel, it'd be the end of Iran as well. 

I suppose the next thing you'd say is something like: "But Iran follows a suicide bomber mentality!"  

Ah...predictable 

And as I said before, nukes are the last resort and a deterrent. Not a first hand weapon to apply. 


By your logic, given that Pakistan has nuclear weapons, it'll also intend to annihilate India at first hand. It's been over a decade since they had nukes, and yet not a single nuke has been used in South Asia and beyond. 

North Korea is a 'rogue nation' according to the fanboys in Washington. But did they wipe out South Korea?  

Given that Iran sees future threats to its sovereignty (they'll never intend to be a blind puppet of the US), and that it will actively develop nuclear weapons, there's nothing you can do about it accept whine. 

My point is that the US's strategy in the Middle East is thoroughly screwed. That is the result of not tightening the resulting loose ends of the Cold War. 

The resultant Iraq war was a genocide. 

Israel may exercise alternative options other than only through the US. I know it may sound unconventional and difficult, but it doesn't hurt to be flexible.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

Zabaniya said:


> What just what is 'irrelevant' according to you? Bill Clinton did give nuclear technology to Iran just to display he's smart.
> 
> Does the 'wipe Israel off the map' motto have to strictly apply realistically?
> 
> Even if Iran nukes Israel, it'd be the end of Iran as well.
> 
> I suppose the next thing you'd say is something like: "But Iran follows a suicide bomber mentality!"
> 
> Ah...predictable
> 
> And as I said before, nukes are the last resort and a deterrent. Not a first hand weapon to apply.
> 
> 
> By your logic, given that Pakistan has nuclear weapons, it'll also intend to annihilate India at first hand. It's been over a decade since they had nukes, and yet not a single nuke has been used in South Asia and beyond.
> 
> North Korea is a 'rogue nation' according to the fanboys in Washington. But did they wipe out South Korea?
> 
> Given that Iran sees future threats to its sovereignty (they'll never intend to be a blind puppet of the US), and that it will actively develop nuclear weapons, there's nothing you can do about it accept whine.
> 
> My point is that the US's strategy in the Middle East is thoroughly screwed. That is the result of not tightening the resulting loose ends of the Cold War.
> 
> The resultant Iraq war was a genocide.
> 
> Israel may exercise alternative options other than only through the US. I know it may sound unconventional and difficult, but it doesn't hurt to be flexible.



First, you did not answer my question.

Second, I am happy to see that I am completely dispensable in this discussion - you ask the questions and answer instead of me. It is almost rude of me to interrupt in your discussion between yourself and the imaginable myself. Will it not be better let me to ask my questions and give my answers? It will save you the effort.

I never said that Iran will launch a nuclear attack against Israel the minute it has nukes. This option will be more realistic once the Iranian be able to develop a nuclear warhead, but Israel has a good deterrence against this kind of scenario. This is another reason why Israel should wait for a normalisation process in the ME before accepting NWFZ in the region. Even the Iranian regime is not that stupid to launch a nuclear attack against Israel.

However, Israel still should whatever in its power to prevent a nuclear Iran. Iran will use its nuclear capabilities as a deterrence not just against attempts for a regime change in Tehran but also for Israeli counter attacks against its terror organisations such as Hizbuallha in Lebanon. This situation will enable Iran with the help of all the radical factions and regimes in the ME to terrorise Israel and maintain Israel in a constant emergency situation.

Furthermore, the nuclear umbrella will also give stronger motivations for Iran's current attempts to undermine moderate Arab regimes: from Yemen to Lebanon and Bahrain. With it nuclear status, Iran will move with stronger motivation to place radical regimes also in KSA and Egypt.

Moreover, Iran with nuclear weapons will immediately cause a chain reaction and Arab countries like KSA and Egypt which fear Iran's influence will also develop nuclear weapons. This will create a nuclear ME that in the light of its instability could easily deteriorate into a nuclear war. As was shown in the past some of the leaders in the ME, such as Qaddafi and Saddam Hussain and the current leader of Sudan, did not see any problem using extreme measures. In addition nuclear ME will be the end of the current nuclear non-proliferation efforts and every rogue country will try to develop nuclear weapons: from Venezuela to Myanmar and Zimbabwe.

The US with the help of Israel is trying to prevent exactly this devastating consequences and stopping Iran. There cannot be any settlement with the Islamic Revolutionary regime in Iran which aspire to establish as many as radical Islamic regimes, mainly in the ME and take control over the ME oil reserves. The US is doing the right thing by blocking the aspirations of this terror regime and considering the option of a military strike against its nuclear programme. 

For the sake of human kind, freedom and democracy, we should all hope the the leader of free nations, the US, will win in this conflict against the rogue regime of Iran which oppress all free spirits and basic human rights, and which responsible for the murder of innocent lives around the world and of thousands of Iranian people.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> First, you did not answer my question.


*
Yeah, it's your old trick, nobody answers your crap only you answer with your load of crap!*



nirreich said:


> Second, I am happy to see that I am completely dispensable in this discussion - you ask the questions and answer instead of me. It is almost rude of me to interrupt in your discussion between yourself and the imaginable myself. Will it not be better let me to ask my questions and give my answers? It will save you the effort.


*
When the liar is struck by truth, the truth appears to him as an imagination, it's nothing new.*



nirreich said:


> I never said that Iran will launch a nuclear attack against Israel the minute it has nukes. This option will be more realistic once the Iranian be able to develop a nuclear warhead,


*
Do you want to say that israel does not have the 'Samson Option'?*



nirreich said:


> However, Israel still should whatever in its power to prevent a nuclear Iran. Iran will use its nuclear capabilities as a deterrence not just against attempts for a regime change in Tehran but also for Israeli counter attacks against its terror organisations such as Hizbuallha in Lebanon. This situation will enable Iran with the help of all the radical factions and regimes in the ME to terrorise Israel and maintain Israel in a constant emergency situation.



*There's nothing wrong in trying to stop the illegal attempts by rogue nations to topple foreign governments. As for Hezbollah, it is the perfect antidote to the israeli terrorism.*



nirreich said:


> Furthermore, the nuclear umbrella will also give stronger motivations for Iran's current attempts to undermine moderate Arab regimes: from Yemen to Lebanon and Bahrain. With it nuclear status, Iran will move with stronger motivation to place radical regimes also in KSA and Egypt.



*Arab people view rulers like Mubarak and Saleh as tyrannical despots whose mission is to plunder the wealth of the states, but of course, to the zionists they are 'moderate regimes' and that tells what the zionists are made of.*




nirreich said:


> Moreover, Iran with nuclear weapons will immediately cause a chain reaction


*
How do you say that Iran's drive to acquire the nukes is not part of the chain reaction started by israel?*



nirreich said:


> The US with the help of Israel is trying to prevent exactly this devastating consequences and stopping Iran. There cannot be any settlement with the Islamic Revolutionary regime in Iran which aspire to establish as many as radical Islamic regimes, mainly in the ME and take control over the ME oil reserves. The US is doing the right thing by blocking the aspirations of this terror regime and considering the option of a military strike against its nuclear programme.



*If israel and the US can establish and nurture despots and thieves as rulers why can't Iran even wish to establish Islamic governments?*



nirreich said:


> For the sake of human kind, freedom and democracy,.




*Just how many despots and criminals have you propped up with the help of the US so far, for the sake of democracy, freedom and human rights?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yeah, it's your old trick, nobody answers your crap only you answer with your load of crap!*
> 
> 
> *
> When the liar is struck by truth, the truth appears to him as an imagination, it's nothing new.*
> 
> 
> *
> Do you want to say that israel does not have the 'Samson Option'?*
> 
> 
> 
> *There's nothing wrong in trying to stop the illegal attempts by rogue nations to topple foreign governments. As for Hezbollah, it is the perfect antidote to the israeli terrorism.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Arab people view rulers like Mubarak and Saleh as tyrannical despots whose mission is to plunder the wealth of the states, but of course, to the zionists they are 'moderate regimes' and that tells what the zionists are made of.*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> How do you say that Iran's drive to acquire the nukes is not part of the chain reaction started by israel?*
> 
> 
> 
> *If israel and the US can establish and nurture despots and thieves as rulers why can't Iran even wish to establish Islamic governments?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Just how many despots and criminals have you propped up with the help of the US so far, for the sake of democracy, freedom and human rights?*



If you so smart and know it all, then why every time you are asked to explain your pompous statements all you can do is repeat the same old crap you posted before, but you never deal with the questions surrounding your arguments.

Just go back in this thread and see that I refuted all your Anti-Semite nonsense: that Iran wants nukes because of Israel, about Israel's allegedly WMD, and about the dire situation of the ME and the responsibility for this state of affair of the countries in this region. 

In this post, I clearly pointed to the devastating scenario if Iran develops nuclear weapons, and you do not deny it, so I do not know why you make all this fas. You clearly made your point that you want Iran with nukes in the name of "justice" even if it means a nuclear war and a catastrophe. In you eyes this is a price worth paying. So at least stop pretend to speak for the oppressed people in the ME because if we follow you plan most of them will stop to exist.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If you so smart and know it all, then why every time you are asked to explain your pompous statements all you can do is repeat the same old crap you posted before, but you never deal with the questions surrounding your arguments.
> 
> Just go back in this thread and see that I refuted all your Anti-Semite nonsense: that Iran wants nukes because of Israel, about Israel's allegedly WMD, and about the dire situation of the ME and the responsibility for this state of affair of the countries in this region.
> 
> In this post, I clearly pointed to the devastating scenario if Iran develops nuclear weapons, and you do not deny it, so I do not know why you make all this fas. You clearly made your point that you want Iran with nukes in the name of "justice" even if it means a nuclear war and a catastrophe. In you eyes this is a price worth paying. So at least stop pretend to speak for the oppressed people in the ME because if we follow you plan most of them will stop to exist.



*Why is it that every time you're asked questions you evade those questions and repeat your lies? I ask you again, do you want to say that israel does not have the 'Samson option'? What exactly do you find irrelevant in what zabanya has said and why is it irrelevant? What gives israel the right to prevent others from developing a deterrent to israel's nuclear threat?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Why is it that every time you're asked questions you evade those questions and repeat your lies? I ask you again, do you want to say that israel does not have the 'Samson option'? What exactly do you find irrelevant in what zabanya has said and why is it irrelevant? What gives israel the right to prevent others from developing a deterrent to israel's nuclear threat?*



I already answered many times on these questions: I do not know what Israel has, Israel allegedly WMD poses no threat to any country, and Iran's nuclear ambitions are a menace to the ME and the international community. Each of my answers were explained in details, for a change read my explanations and not just your own crap.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I already answered many times on these questions: I do not know what Israel has, Israel allegedly WMD poses no threat to any country, and Iran's nuclear ambitions are a menace to the ME and the international community. Each of my answers were explained in details, for a change read my explanations and not just your own crap.


*
And we answered many times that Vanunu's disclosure is the evidence that israel has nukes and they pose the greatest threat to the region. On the other hand, there's no evidence at all that Iran possesses nukes so there's no question of any threat from the so-called imaginary Iranian nukes manufactured in the thick skulls of the zionists like you.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> And we answered many times that Vanunu's disclosure is the evidence that israel has nukes and they pose the greatest threat to the region. On the other hand, there's no evidence at all that Iran possesses nukes so there's no question of any threat from the so-called imaginary Iranian nukes manufactured in the thick skulls of the zionists like you.*



You never bother to read so your ignorant became your trademark.

I never said Iran has nuclear weapons, but that it aspires to develop nukes and I pointed to the dangers in this future scenario.

But what is another lie for an anti-Semite.

To remind you, you never answered the following questions:

What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?

Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You never bother to read so your ignorant became your trademark.
> 
> I never said Iran has nuclear weapons, but that it aspires to develop nukes and I pointed to the dangers in this future scenario.
> 
> But what is another lie for an anti-Semite.
> 
> To remind you, you never answered the following questions:
> 
> What did Israel blackmailed from its Arab neighbours by using its image as a nuclear state?
> 
> Why you against Israel's nuclear blackmail (as you deloused) and in favour of Iran using nuclear blackmail?



*You're liar, I answered your question in post#72, read it again. Why are you against a nuclear deterrent against the israeli nuclear blackmail?*


----------



## kollang

its better to israell to put their n-bombs into the n-trash.because they will be bombed by shahab ballistic missile and then many civilan people will be Dead by 1 second.


----------



## SHAMK9

ok so let me get this straight, america/ britain and isreal want to keep nukes but they wont let countries like iran, north korea and pakistan keep theirs?


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You're liar, I answered your question in post#72, read it again. Why are you against a nuclear deterrent against the israeli nuclear blackmail?*



You are a liar - you always run from my questions and there is nothing in post #72.

As I already proved, there is no "Israeli nuclear blackmail".


----------



## nirreich

kollang said:


> its better to israell to put their n-bombs into the n-trash.because they will be bombed by shahab ballistic missile and then many civilan people will be Dead by 1 second.



I have heard that Iranian civilians are also very vulnerable to nuclear weapons and it might effect their health and their life quality. So, tell you barbaric leadership not to mess with more stronger and powerful countries. Israel is not another Azerbaijan, Bahrain, or even KSA.


----------



## nirreich

SHAMK9 said:


> ok so let me get this straight, america/ britain and isreal want to keep nukes but they wont let countries like iran, north korea and pakistan keep theirs?



Of course.

the international norm (known as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty- NPT) accepted by most countries, including Iran, that only five countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons: the US, Britain, France, Russia, and China.

India, Pakistan, and Israel never signed the NPT, North Korea withdrew from the NPT in 2003.

Now, India and Israel never gave nuclear assistance to terror regimes and are considered democratic and responsible countries.

Pakistan helped rogue regimes to develop nukes: Iran, Libya, and North Korea. Pakistan offered asistance to additional regimes: Saddam's Iraq, KSA, Syria. Pakistan's nuclear scientists offered assistance to OBL, just 3 weeks before 9/11. And above all, Pakistan can easily fall as a pray to radical Islamic regime which consider its nuclear weapons as "Islamic bomb" and threaten international security.

North Korea cheated the world: It promised not to develop nukes and received international assistance, but developed a clandestine nuclear programme. Furthermore, NK helped Syria to develop a clandestine nuclear programme.

If Pakistan and NK got their way all the countries in ME would have nuclear weapons, and regimes like Saddam, Qadafi, Asad. This blood thirsty dictators could murder their people, terrorise their neighbours and no one could remove them. If Pakistan got its way, OBL had dirty bombs to terrorise and murder much more innocent people than he did in 9/11.

Iran do the same thing as Pakistan and NK: tried clandestinely to develop nuclear weapons although it is committed not to do it, and is ready to use its nukes to terrorist its neighbours and take control on the oil reserves of the ME. Iran's nukes will be use as deterrent to enable its terror organisations to undermine regimes in the ME and butcher innocent people in Israeli and other countries. Iran is also eager to assist more countries to develop nukes.

That is why all of this countries should be without nuclear weapons for the sake of international security and the survival of human kind.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I have heard that Iranian civilians are also very vulnerable to nuclear weapons and it might effect their health and their life quality. So, tell you barbaric leadership not to mess with more stronger and powerful countries. Israel is not another Azerbaijan, Bahrain, or even KSA.



*It's israel who is messing with all its neighbours and its nukes are the source of its belligerence. Therefore, for the sake of peace the most logical step is to get rid of the israeli nukes and its savage leaders.*


----------



## yyetttt

Resolution : Bomb all Nuclear facilities in Israel and Iran.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *It's israel who is messing with all its neighbours and its nukes are the source of its belligerence. Therefore, for the sake of peace the most logical step is to get rid of the israeli nukes and its savage leaders.*



Just a troll trolling.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------




jellodragon said:


> Resolution : Bomb all Nuclear facilities in Israel and Iran.


 
Why? Because Iran say so? Why not bomb nuclear facilities in China, France and Russia too?


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Just a troll trolling.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Because Iran say so? Why not bomb nuclear facilities in China, France and Russia too?



*Coming from a zionist liar, the term 'troll' has quite a different meaning, so who gives a damn to what a liar says!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Coming from a zionist liar, the term 'troll' has quite a different meaning, so who gives a damn to what a liar says!*



The little anti-Semite troll continue his never ending run from anything which looks like reality and the truth, but has no problem to babble about lies. You will not recognise the truth even if it bites you in your bottom.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The little anti-Semite troll continue his never ending run from anything which looks like reality and the truth, but has no problem to babble about lies. You will not recognise the truth even if it bites you in your bottom.


*
The zionist liar just won't get it, in his lifetime he connot sell his basket of lies!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The zionist liar just won't get it, in his lifetime he connot sell his basket of lies!*



You act like a little girl so afraid so it cries constantly and scream for attention.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You act like a little girl so afraid so it cries constantly and scream for attention.



Your bitching won't change anything, perhaps you should hear the truth from Ron Paul. Here's the sample of truth for a zionist nazi:

Ron Paul raps U.S. hostility toward Iran 
World Desk

On Line: 07 January 2012 17:22


Iranians are &#8220;planning to be bombed&#8221; and would understandably make the necessary arrangements to counter the threat, even though there is &#8220;no evidence whatsoever&#8221; that they have &#8220;enriched&#8221; uranium, Paul said in a recent speech. 

Washington and Tel Aviv have repeatedly threatened Tehran with the &#8220;option&#8221; of a military strike, based on the allegation that Iran's nuclear work may consist of a covert military aspect. 

Last week, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey said the U.S. military is ready to launch a military strike against Iran, if occasion necessitates. 

Dempsey's warmongering tirades came on the heels of equally aggressive remarks by U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta that &#8220;no options were off the table&#8221; regarding Iran's nuclear program. 

Paul also noted that Iran's anti-U.S. stance stems from Washington's interference in Tehran's internal affairs. 

He referred to the 1953 coup d'état against then Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, explaining that the U.S. forcefully replaced Mosaddeq with a ruthless dictator to secure its own interests, including oil benefits. 

Paul also criticized the U.S. sanctions against the Islamic Republic, describing them as &#8220;acts of war&#8221; which can pave the way for a real conflict in the Middle East. 

&#8220;Sanctions were the first step in our wars against Iraq and Libya, and now more sanctions planned against Syria and Iran are leading down the same destructive path,&#8221; he warned in a recent article titled The Folly of Sanctions. 

On December 31, U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law fresh economic sanctions against Iran's Central Bank in a bid to punish foreign companies and banks that do business with the Iranian financial institution. 

The United States has already barred its own banks from dealing with the Iranian Central Bank. Thus, the new U.S. sanctions are intended to dissuade other foreign banks from doing transactions with Iran's Central Bank by threatening to cut off their access to U.S. financial institutions. 

The U.S., Israel and their allies accuse Iran of pursuing a military nuclear program and have used this allegation as a pretext to push the UN Security Council to impose sanctions on Iran. 

Tehran has categorically refuted the Western allegations, saying that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), it has the right to acquire and develop atomic technology for peaceful purposes.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------




nirreich said:


> You act like a little girl so afraid so it cries constantly and scream for attention.



Your bitching won't change anything, perhaps you should hear the truth from Ron Paul. Here's the sample of truth for a zionist nazi:

Ron Paul raps U.S. hostility toward Iran 
World Desk

On Line: 07 January 2012 17:22


Iranians are planning to be bombed and would understandably make the necessary arrangements to counter the threat, even though there is no evidence whatsoever that they have enriched uranium, Paul said in a recent speech. 

Washington and Tel Aviv have repeatedly threatened Tehran with the option of a military strike, based on the allegation that Iran's nuclear work may consist of a covert military aspect. 

Last week, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey said the U.S. military is ready to launch a military strike against Iran, if occasion necessitates. 

Dempsey's warmongering tirades came on the heels of equally aggressive remarks by U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta that no options were off the table regarding Iran's nuclear program. 

Paul also noted that Iran's anti-U.S. stance stems from Washington's interference in Tehran's internal affairs. 

He referred to the 1953 coup d'état against then Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, explaining that the U.S. forcefully replaced Mosaddeq with a ruthless dictator to secure its own interests, including oil benefits. 

Paul also criticized the U.S. sanctions against the Islamic Republic, describing them as acts of war which can pave the way for a real conflict in the Middle East. 

Sanctions were the first step in our wars against Iraq and Libya, and now more sanctions planned against Syria and Iran are leading down the same destructive path, he warned in a recent article titled The Folly of Sanctions. 

On December 31, U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law fresh economic sanctions against Iran's Central Bank in a bid to punish foreign companies and banks that do business with the Iranian financial institution. 

The United States has already barred its own banks from dealing with the Iranian Central Bank. Thus, the new U.S. sanctions are intended to dissuade other foreign banks from doing transactions with Iran's Central Bank by threatening to cut off their access to U.S. financial institutions. 

The U.S., Israel and their allies accuse Iran of pursuing a military nuclear program and have used this allegation as a pretext to push the UN Security Council to impose sanctions on Iran. 

Tehran has categorically refuted the Western allegations, saying that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), it has the right to acquire and develop atomic technology for peaceful purposes.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Israel is a country which has been safeguarding its interests at any costs.... wish every country was like tht....


















Not advocating israel though.


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> Your bitching won't change anything, perhaps you should hear the truth from Ron Paul. Here's the sample of truth for a zionist nazi:
> 
> Ron Paul raps U.S. hostility toward Iran
> World Desk
> 
> On Line: 07 January 2012 17:22
> 
> 
> Iranians are &#8220;planning to be bombed&#8221; and would understandably make the necessary arrangements to counter the threat, even though there is &#8220;no evidence whatsoever&#8221; that they have &#8220;enriched&#8221; uranium, Paul said in a recent speech.
> 
> Washington and Tel Aviv have repeatedly threatened Tehran with the &#8220;option&#8221; of a military strike, based on the allegation that Iran's nuclear work may consist of a covert military aspect.
> 
> Last week, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey said the U.S. military is ready to launch a military strike against Iran, if occasion necessitates.
> 
> Dempsey's warmongering tirades came on the heels of equally aggressive remarks by U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta that &#8220;no options were off the table&#8221; regarding Iran's nuclear program.
> 
> Paul also noted that Iran's anti-U.S. stance stems from Washington's interference in Tehran's internal affairs.
> 
> He referred to the 1953 coup d'état against then Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, explaining that the U.S. forcefully replaced Mosaddeq with a ruthless dictator to secure its own interests, including oil benefits.
> 
> Paul also criticized the U.S. sanctions against the Islamic Republic, describing them as &#8220;acts of war&#8221; which can pave the way for a real conflict in the Middle East.
> 
> &#8220;Sanctions were the first step in our wars against Iraq and Libya, and now more sanctions planned against Syria and Iran are leading down the same destructive path,&#8221; he warned in a recent article titled The Folly of Sanctions.
> 
> On December 31, U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law fresh economic sanctions against Iran's Central Bank in a bid to punish foreign companies and banks that do business with the Iranian financial institution.
> 
> The United States has already barred its own banks from dealing with the Iranian Central Bank. Thus, the new U.S. sanctions are intended to dissuade other foreign banks from doing transactions with Iran's Central Bank by threatening to cut off their access to U.S. financial institutions.
> 
> The U.S., Israel and their allies accuse Iran of pursuing a military nuclear program and have used this allegation as a pretext to push the UN Security Council to impose sanctions on Iran.
> 
> Tehran has categorically refuted the Western allegations, saying that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), it has the right to acquire and develop atomic technology for peaceful purposes.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Your bitching won't change anything, perhaps you should hear the truth from Ron Paul. Here's the sample of truth for a zionist nazi:
> 
> Ron Paul raps U.S. hostility toward Iran
> World Desk
> 
> On Line: 07 January 2012 17:22
> 
> 
> Iranians are &#8220;planning to be bombed&#8221; and would understandably make the necessary arrangements to counter the threat, even though there is &#8220;no evidence whatsoever&#8221; that they have &#8220;enriched&#8221; uranium, Paul said in a recent speech.
> 
> Washington and Tel Aviv have repeatedly threatened Tehran with the &#8220;option&#8221; of a military strike, based on the allegation that Iran's nuclear work may consist of a covert military aspect.
> 
> Last week, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey said the U.S. military is ready to launch a military strike against Iran, if occasion necessitates.
> 
> Dempsey's warmongering tirades came on the heels of equally aggressive remarks by U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta that &#8220;no options were off the table&#8221; regarding Iran's nuclear program.
> 
> Paul also noted that Iran's anti-U.S. stance stems from Washington's interference in Tehran's internal affairs.
> 
> He referred to the 1953 coup d'état against then Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, explaining that the U.S. forcefully replaced Mosaddeq with a ruthless dictator to secure its own interests, including oil benefits.
> 
> Paul also criticized the U.S. sanctions against the Islamic Republic, describing them as &#8220;acts of war&#8221; which can pave the way for a real conflict in the Middle East.
> 
> &#8220;Sanctions were the first step in our wars against Iraq and Libya, and now more sanctions planned against Syria and Iran are leading down the same destructive path,&#8221; he warned in a recent article titled The Folly of Sanctions.
> 
> On December 31, U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law fresh economic sanctions against Iran's Central Bank in a bid to punish foreign companies and banks that do business with the Iranian financial institution.
> 
> The United States has already barred its own banks from dealing with the Iranian Central Bank. Thus, the new U.S. sanctions are intended to dissuade other foreign banks from doing transactions with Iran's Central Bank by threatening to cut off their access to U.S. financial institutions.
> 
> The U.S., Israel and their allies accuse Iran of pursuing a military nuclear program and have used this allegation as a pretext to push the UN Security Council to impose sanctions on Iran.
> 
> Tehran has categorically refuted the Western allegations, saying that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), it has the right to acquire and develop atomic technology for peaceful purposes.



Tell your anti-Semite friends in Iran not to mess with Israel and we let them to stay alive for a while.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Tell your anti-Semite friends in Iran not to mess with Israel and we let them to stay alive for a while.


*
Now, the zionist ***** is really angry!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Now, the zionist ***** is really angry!*



The stupid anti-Semite troll is even dumber than usual.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The stupid anti-Semite troll is even dumber than usual.


*
The zionist ***** is badly in need of a dog!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The zionist ***** is badly in need of a dog!*



There is no dog in the world who can compete with your anti-Semite barking.

Little girl, run away back to your mummy, and stop your crying.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> There is no dog in the world who can compete with your anti-Semite barking.
> 
> Little girl, run away back to your mummy, and stop your crying.


*
Zionist drag queen, you can run but you can't hide!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Zionist drag queen, you can run but you can't hide!*



Oh, you wet your skirt again, run to your mummy so she will replace your diaper.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Oh, you wet your skirt again, run to your mummy so she will replace your diaper.


*
You must be playing with your dildo! Soon, the iranian missiles will do the job for you!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> You must be playing with your dildo! Soon, the iranian missiles will do the job for you!*



No wonder you think of missiles as dildos, you have rich experience in using them to pleasure yourself.

Well, you are in the wrong address, PDF is not for you: if you like to wear skirts and play with long objects Go to the nearest gay bar to find you soul mates.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> No wonder you think of missiles as dildos, you have rich experience in using them to pleasure yourself.



*listen, zionist drag queen, this way or that way, the israeli nukes are going to be neutralised, the question is, is it going to happen peacefully?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *listen, zionist drag queen, this way or that way, the israeli nukes are going to be neutralised, the question is, is it going to happen peacefully?*



My little frightened anti-Semite: the only question is whether anti-Semite like you will recognise the bitter truth about their degenerate ideas or will they face the consequences of their evil and racist ideology.

I advise you to have more spare skirts in case you will wet yourself again in the future.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My little frightened anti-Semite: the only question is whether anti-Semite like you will recognise the bitter truth about their degenerate ideas or will they face the consequences of their evil and racist ideology.


*
Have I not given you the sample of truth from Ron Paul?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Have I not given you the sample of truth from Ron Paul?*



What truth? that Iran is a threat to world peace with or without nuclear weapons?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

nirreich said:


> What truth? that Iran is a threat to world peace with or without nuclear weapons?



Iran is threatened by israel which is allowed to have nukes... destabilising the region.


----------



## nirreich

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Iran is threatened by israel which is allowed to have nukes... destabilising the region.



How and why Iran is threatened? Think a minute about what you wrote and you can see it has nothing to do with reality, only with propaganda.


----------



## untitled

*@nirreich and @T-rex*

Why don't both of you invite one another for a cup of tea. You two have locked horns since time immemorial.Time to call it a day


----------



## UKBengali

T-Rex said:


> *
> The zionist liar just won't get it, in his lifetime he connot sell his basket of lies!*



Don't worry bro.

This insignificant stolen piece of land will only be strong as long as the Westerners are dominant.

The Economist predicts that China's economy will be larger than all the Westerners combined by 2025, so their time is quickly going to come to an end.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nirreich

UKBengali said:


> Don't worry bro.
> 
> This insignificant stolen piece of land will only be strong as long as the Westerners are dominant.
> 
> The Economist predicts that China's economy will be larger than all the Westerners combined by 2025, so their time is quickly going to come to an end.



Keep dreaming, but no one will do the job for your civilisation, and your Muslim Ummah is no going to be anything significant on world stage in the foreseeable future.


----------



## UKBengali

nirreich said:


> Keep dreaming, but no one will do the job for your civilisation, and your Muslim Ummah is no going to be anything significant on world stage in the foreseeable future.



LOL.

Large Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia are rapidly industrialising and will become very strong by then.

Guess what? When your Western buddies no longer dicate things, plenty of Muslim countries like Turkey and Iran will have full nuclear arsenals, then what or who will protect you like now?


A world dominated by China will not be good for you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## T-Rex

UKBengali said:


> Don't worry bro.
> 
> This insignificant stolen piece of land will only be strong as long as the Westerners are dominant.
> 
> The Economist predicts that China's economy will be larger than all the Westerners combined by 2025, so their time is quickly going to come to an end.



*Something tells me, these zionists are eager to make it happen much earlier than 2025!*


----------



## kollang

nirreich said:


> I have heard that Iranian civilians are also very vulnerable to nuclear weapons and it might effect their health and their life quality. So, tell you barbaric leadership not to mess with more stronger and powerful countries. Israel is not another Azerbaijan, Bahrain, or even KSA.


and i have heard zionists are too chicken that in first second of a war they will escape from the Palestine.tell to your Cannibal friends that we will remove your house into your main place very soon.so its better to you escape from the palestine by yourself not by our boots.


----------



## UKBengali

nirreich said:


> You have fantasies and rich imagination, but do not confuse it with reality. Unfortunately for you, your Muslim civilisation is in the bottom of human development and there are no sign it is getting any better.
> 
> Iran will not have nuclear weapons, I can promise you that, so wake up of your dreams of glory and smell the dung your civilisation is covert with.



Keep dreaming that Iran will not have nuclear weapons because it will once the Westerners are no longer dominant.


Muslims botton of human development?

Turkey(80 million pop) - 2nd world country forecaset to become developed by 2020.

Malaysia(25 million pop) - 2nd world country forecaset to become developed by 2020.

Indonesia(230 million pop) - Largest GDP in the Muslim world at around 1 trillion dollars. Also growing at 6-7% a year.

Do not confuse Muslims with Arabs. Not all Muslims are the same.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

nirreich said:


> How and why Iran is threatened? Think a minute about what you wrote and you can see it has nothing to do with reality, only with propaganda.



You have occupied palestinian land... and nukes tht shift the balance of power..


----------



## nirreich

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> You have occupied palestinian land... and nukes tht shift the balance of power..



It does not answer the question.

---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------




UKBengali said:


> Keep dreaming that Iran will not have nuclear weapons because it will once the Westerners are no longer dominant.
> 
> 
> Muslims botton of human development?
> 
> Turkey(80 million pop) - 2nd world country forecaset to become developed by 2020.
> 
> Malaysia(25 million pop) - 2nd world country forecaset to become developed by 2020.
> 
> Indonesia(230 million pop) - Largest GDP in the Muslim world at around 1 trillion dollars. Also growing at 6-7% a year.
> 
> Do not confuse Muslims with Arabs. Not all Muslims are the same.



I am hardly impressed by your forecasts: this countries starts from a very low basis so any growth looks impressive.

The predictions about the crumbling of the West are heard in the last 40 years, nothing new. I would not hope too much.


----------



## UKBengali

nirreich said:


> It does not answer the question.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I am hardly impressed by your forecasts: this countries starts from a very low basis so any growth looks impressive.
> 
> The predictions about the crumbling of the West are heard in the last 40 years, nothing new. I would not hope too much.



Turkey and Malaysia are already 2nd world countries. This is here and now.

I would not put too much hope on the continued dominance of the Westerners either that have been propping you up.


----------



## kollang

nirreich said:


> Are you a professional comedian? You should really improve your materials.
> 
> Israel fought and won all its wars, and your barbaric regime knows that. That is why it prefer to send Hizbuallah and Hamas to fight for him and not to suffer a humiliated defeat. Luckily for your barbaric regime that it is far from Israel. Otherwise it would had to handle much more than civilian demonstrators to murder.
> 
> No one is exited in Israel from the empty threats of your anti-Semite leaders.


our students hamas and hizbollah kicked your *** as well.you dont need our full attacks because hizbollah and hamas are too enough for you.
you cant even defence from hamas QASSAM missiles with 1 kg warhead.how you wanne defence from OUR SHAHAB MISSILES with 1500 kg warhead.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Hey guys can you stop being idiots and using offensive words for eachother............keep the party civilised.


----------



## SQ8

No longer on topic.. or Civil.. 
CLOSED.


----------



## Farooqi

China is Indias biggest trading partner with which New Delhi has signed a number of agreements in various fields, but American support, it is playing a double game with Beijing.


----------



## pelasgos

HELLAS 25-1-2012

COMMON SIGNAL OF THE GEOSTRATEGICS ANALYST OF G.H.REES (GROUP OF HELLENIC REESTABLISHMENT) YANNIS KARAGEORGIOU AND OF THE WEB BLOG HELLEN AND CHAOS TO THE CHIEF GENERAL  COMMANDER OF NATO ADMIRAL JAMES STAVRIDIS

THEME: ABOUT BLUFFS STATEMENTS  DENIALS OF JAMES STAVRIDIS AFTER QUESTIONS HE RECEIVED WITH CONTENT: IF NATO HAS READY PLANS OF ASSAULT AGAINST SYRIA AND IRAN


MORE HIER:
www(.)hellenandchaos(.)blogspot(.)com/2012/01/ghrees-to-james-stavridis-of-nato-about(.)html


----------



## killerx

Time for IAEA to Deal with Israeli Nukes ? 
yea right the rich jew all over the world will let you do that


----------



## The SC

nirreich said:


> The problem is that the ME is the most unstable region in the world, and Israel is still isolated and none of the countries in the region are ready to accept Israel as a Jewish-nation state. The radical axis of Iran, Syria, Hizbuhalla and Hamas is still planning how to destroy Israel by terrorism and military force. Furthermore, Iran's nuclear ambitions threatens Israel like the possibility of nuclear weapons in other Arab and Muslim countries (such as Egypt, KSA and Turkey). Their nuclear ambitions are part of the power struggle between the Muslim countries of the ME and got nothing to do with Israel's nuclear programme (Iran wants nuke to dominate to region, KSA and Egypt wants to counter Iran, etc.)
> 
> The condition for Israel's nuclear disarmament is very simple: permanent peace agreements and normalisation with all the countries of the ME. When that happens Israel will be able to have security and will not fear from the possibility of more attempts to eliminate it.




It lives like a chyst or a cancer inside a body, it has to be removed it is a medical and natural matter, the antibodies react to it and remove(destroy) it or at least contain it and neutralise it from spreading and ultimately eliminate it.
No wonder Neither Europe Nor The US wanted such an entity. One can look throughout history, Babylon, Egypt and and other civilisations as well. This lets me wonder why!


----------



## The SC

nirreich said:


> Stinking anti-Semite like you also force people to be rude.
> 
> You do not need to have nukes in order to threaten to use them: Iran implies to use nukes, Iraq of Saddam did the same and so North Korea and Pakistan even before they had nuke. It called deterrence.
> 
> As I said, Israel never admitted to have nukes nor threatened to use nukes. This is a fact!





Israeli Nuclear Threats and Blackmail


----------



## untitled

When was this thread reopened ?


----------



## Kompromat

*
THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES: ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS*

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers

Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College

Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama

September 1999

The Counterproliferation Papers Series was established by the USAF Counterproliferation Center to provide information and analysis to U.S. national security policy-makers and USAF officers to assist them in countering the threat posed by adversaries equipped with weapons of mass destruction. Copies of papers in this series are available from the USAF Counterproliferation Center, 325 Chennault Circle, Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427. The fax number is (334) 953-7538; phone (334) 953-7538.

Counterproliferation Paper No. 2
USAF Counterproliferation Center
Air War College

Air University
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 36112-6427

The internet address for the USAF Counterproliferation Center is:
USAF Counterproliferation Center

Contents:

Page

Disclaimer i

The Author ii

Acknowledgments iii

Abstract iv

I. Introduction 1

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation 3

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project Through to Completion 9

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb Up the Basement Stairs 15

Appendix: Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal 23

Notes 25

Disclaimer

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

The Author

Colonel Warner D. &#8220;Rocky&#8221; Farr, Medical Corps, Master Flight Surgeon, U.S. Army, graduated from the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama before becoming the Command Surgeon, U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He also serves as the Surgeon for the U.S. Army Special Forces Command, U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, and the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. With thirty-three years of military service, he holds an Associate of Arts from the State University of New York, Bachelor of Science from Northeast Louisiana University, Doctor of Medicine from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Masters of Public Health from the University of Texas, and has completed medical residencies in aerospace medicine, and anatomic and clinical pathology. He is the only army officer to be board certified in these three specialties. Solo qualified in the TH-55A Army helicopter, he received flight training in the T-37 and T-38 aircraft as part of his USAF School of Aerospace Medicine residency.

Colonel Farr was a Master Sergeant Special Forces medic prior to receiving a direct commission to second lieutenant. He is now the senior Special Forces medical officer in the U.S. Army with prior assignments in the 5th, 7th, and 10th Special Forces Groups (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, in Vietnam, the United States, and Germany. He has advised the 12th and 20th Special Forces Groups (Airborne) in the reserves and national guard, served as Division Surgeon, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry), and as the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Army Aeromedical Center, Fort Rucker, Alabama.

Acknowledgments

I would like to acknowledge the assistance, guidance and encouragement from my Air War College (AWC) faculty research advisor, Dr. Andrew Terrill, instructor of the Air War College Arab-Israeli Wars course. Thanks are also due to the great aid of the Air University librarians. The author is also indebted to Captain J. R. Saunders, USN and Colonel Robert Sutton, USAF. Who also offered helpful suggestions.

Abstract

This paper is a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program drawn from a review of unclassified sources. Israel began its search for nuclear weapons at the inception of the state in 1948. As payment for Israeli participation in the Suez Crisis of 1956, France provided nuclear expertise and constructed a reactor complex for Israel at Dimona capable of large-scale plutonium production and reprocessing. The United States discovered the facility by 1958 and it was a subject of continual discussions between American presidents and Israeli prime ministers. Israel used delay and deception to at first keep the United States at bay, and later used the nuclear option as a bargaining chip for a consistent American conventional arms supply. After French disengagement in the early 1960s, Israel progressed on its own, including through several covert operations, to project completion. Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons. Israel has most probably conducted several nuclear bomb tests. They have continued to modernize and vertically proliferate and are now one of the world's larger nuclear powers. Using &#8220;bomb in the basement&#8221; nuclear opacity, Israel has been able to use its arsenal as a deterrent to the Arab world while not technically violating American nonproliferation requirements.

The Third Temple's Holy of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr

I. Introduction

This is the end of the Third Temple.

- Attributed to Moshe Dayan

during the Yom Kippur War[1]

As Zionists in Palestine watched World War II from their distant sideshow, what lessons were learned? The soldiers of the Empire of Japan vowed on their emperor's sacred throne to fight to the death and not face the inevitability of an American victory. Many Jews wondered if the Arabs would try to push them into the Mediterranean Sea. After the devastating American nuclear attack on Japan, the soldier leaders of the empire reevaluated their fight to the death position. Did the bomb give the Japanese permission to surrender and live? It obviously played a military role, a political role, and a peacemaking role. How close was the mindset of the Samurai culture to the Islamic culture? Did David Ben-Gurion take note and wonder if the same would work for Israel?[2] Could Israel find the ultimate deterrent that would convince her opponents that they could never, ever succeed? Was Israel's ability to cause a modern holocaust the best way to guarantee never having another one?

The use of unconventional weapons in the Middle East is not new. The British had used chemical artillery shells against the Turks at the second battle of Gaza in 1917. They continued chemical shelling against the Shiites in Iraq in 1920 and used aerial chemicals in the 1920s and 1930s in Iraq.[3]

Israel's involvement with nuclear technology starts at the founding of the state in 1948. Many talented Jewish scientists immigrated to Palestine during the thirties and forties, in particular, Ernst David Bergmann. He would become the director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission and the founder of Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Bergmann, a close friend and advisor of Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, counseled that nuclear energy could compensate for Israel's poor natural resources and small pool of military manpower. He pointed out that there was just one nuclear energy, not two, suggesting nuclear weapons were part of the plan.[4] As early as 1948, Israeli scientists actively explored the Negev Desert for uranium deposits on orders from the Israeli Ministry of Defense. By 1950, they found low-grade deposits near Beersheba and Sidon and worked on a low power method of heavy water production.[5]

The newly created Weizmann Institute of Science actively supported nuclear research by 1949, with Dr. Bergmann heading the chemistry division. Promising students went overseas to study nuclear engineering and physics at Israeli government expense. Israel secretly founded its own Atomic Energy Commission in 1952 and placed it under the control of the Defense Ministry.[6] The foundations of a nuclear program were beginning to develop.

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation

It has always been our intention to develop a nuclear potential.

- Ephraim Katzir[7]

In 1949, Francis Perrin, a member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, nuclear physicist, and friend of Dr. Bergmann visited the Weizmann Institute. He invited Israeli scientists to the new French nuclear research facility at Saclay. A joint research effort was subsequently set up between the two nations. Perrin publicly stated in 1986 that French scientists working in America on the Manhattan Project and in Canada during World War II were told they could use their knowledge in France provided they kept it a secret.[8] Perrin reportedly provided nuclear data to Israel on the same basis.[9] One Israeli scientist worked at the U.S. Los Alamos National Laboratory and may have directly brought expertise home.[10]

After the Second World War, France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before World War II, but had fallen far behind the U.S., the U.S.S.R., the United Kingdom, and even Canada. Israel and France were at a similar level of expertise after the war, and Israeli scientists could make significant contributions to the French effort. Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties. Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule.[11] France profited from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment.[12] In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, France and Israel had close relations in many areas. France was Israel's principal arms supplier, and as instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, Israel provided valuable intelligence obtained from contacts with sephardic Jews in those countries.

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.[13] Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.[14]

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai. 

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.[15] Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.[16] The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.[17] Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.[18]

Why was France so eager to help Israel? DeMollet and then de Gaulle had a place for Israel within their strategic vision. A nuclear Israel could be a counterforce against Egypt in France's fight in Algeria. Egypt was openly aiding the rebel forces there. France also wanted to obtain the bomb itself. The United States had embargoed certain nuclear enabling computer technology from France. Israel could get the technology from America and pass it through to France. The U.S. furnished Israel heavy water, under the Atoms for Peace program, for the small research reactor at Soreq. France could use this heavy water. Since France was some years away from nuclear testing and success, Israeli science was an insurance policy in case of technical problems in France's own program.[19] The Israeli intelligence community's knowledge of past French (especially Vichy) anti-Semitic transgressions and the continued presence of former Nazi collaborators in French intelligence provided the Israelis with some blackmail opportunities.[20] The cooperation was so close that Israel worked with France on the preproduction design of early Mirage jet aircraft, designed to be capable of delivering nuclear bombs.[21]

French experts secretly built the Israeli reactor underground at Dimona, in the Negev desert of southern Israel near Beersheba. Hundreds of French engineers and technicians filled Beersheba, the biggest town in the Negev. Many of the same contractors who built Marcoule were involved. SON (a French firm) built the plutonium separation plants in both France and Israel. The ground was broken for the EL-102 reactor (as it was known to France) in early 1958. 

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted. On 2 December 1960, before Israel could make announcements, the U.S. State Department issued a statement that Israel had a secret nuclear installation. By 16 December, this became public knowledge with its appearance in the New York Times. On 21 December, Ben-Gurion announced that Israel was building a 24-megawatt reactor &#8220;for peaceful purposes.&#8221;[22]

Over the next year, relations between the U.S. and Israel became strained over the Dimona reactor. The U.S. accepted Israel's assertions at face value publicly, but exerted pressure privately. Although Israel allowed a cursory inspection by well known American physicists Eugene Wigner and I. I. Rabi, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion consistently refused to allow regular international inspections. The final resolution between the U.S. and Israel was a commitment from Israel to use the facility for peaceful purposes, and to admit an U.S. inspection team twice a year. These inspections began in 1962 and continued until 1969. Inspectors saw only the above ground part of the buildings, not the many levels underground and the visit frequency was never more than once a year. The above ground areas had simulated control rooms, and access to the underground areas was kept hidden while the inspectors were present. Elevators leading to the secret underground plutonium reprocessing plant were actually bricked over.[23] Much of the information on these inspections and the political maneuvering around it has just been declassified.[24]

One interpretation of Ben-Gurion's &#8220;peaceful purposes&#8221; pledge given to America is that he interpreted it to mean that nuclear weapon development was not excluded if used strictly for defensive, and not offensive purposes. Israel's security position in the late fifties and early sixties was far more precarious than now. After three wars, with a robust domestic arms industry and a reliable defense supply line from the U.S., Israel felt much more secure. During the fifties and early sixties a number of attempts by Israel to obtain security guarantees from the U.S. to place Israel under the U.S. nuclear umbrella like NATO or Japan, were unsuccessful. If the U.S. had conducted a forward-looking policy to restrain Israel's proliferation, along with a sure defense agreement, we could have prevented the development of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

One common discussion in the literature concerns testing of Israeli nuclear devices. In the early phases, the amount of collaboration between the French and Israeli nuclear weapons design programs made testing unnecessary. In addition, although their main efforts were with plutonium, the Israelis may have amassed enough uranium for gun-assembled type bombs which, like the Hiroshima bomb, require no testing. One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not one&#8212;such was the depth of collaboration.]25] There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had &#8220;unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.&#8221;[26] Israel also supplied essential technology and hardware.[27] The French reportedly shipped reprocessed plutonium back to Israel as part of their repayment for Israeli scientific help.

However, this constant, decade long, French cooperation and support was soon to end and Israel would have to go it alone.

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project to Completion

To act in such a way that the Jews who died in the gas chambers would be the last Jews to die without defending themselves.

- Golda Meir[28 ]

Israel would soon need its own, independent, capabilities to complete its nuclear program. Only five countries had facilities for uranium enrichment: the United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, France, and China. The Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, or NUMEC, in Apollo, Pennsylvania was a small fuel rod fabrication plant. In 1965, the U.S. government accused Dr. Zalman Shapiro, the corporation president, of &#8220;losing&#8221; 200 pounds of highly enriched uranium. Although investigated by the Atomic Energy Commission, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other government agencies and inquiring reporters, no answers were available in what was termed the Apollo Affair.[29] Many remain convinced that the Israelis received 200 pounds of enriched uranium sometime before 1965.[30] One source links Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad agent and later the handler of spy Jonathan Pollard, with NUMEC.[31] In the 1990s when the NUMEC plant was disassembled, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission found over 100 kilograms of plutonium in the structural components of the contaminated plant, casting doubt on 200 pounds going to Israel.[32]

The joint venture with France gave Israel several ingredients for nuclear weapons construction: a production reactor, a factory to extract plutonium from the spent fuel, and the design. In 1962, the Dimona reactor went critical; the French resumed work on the underground plutonium reprocessing plant, and completed it in 1964 or 1965. The acquisition of this reactor and related technologies was clearly intended for military purposes from the outset (not &#8220;dual-use&#8221, as the reactor has no other function. The security at Dimona (officially the Negev Nuclear Research Center) was particularly stringent. For straying into Dimona's airspace, the Israelis shot down one of their own Mirage fighters during the Six-Day War. The Israelis also shot down a Libyan airliner with 104 passengers, in 1973, which had strayed over the Sinai.[33] There is little doubt that some time in the late sixties Israel became the sixth nation to manufacture nuclear weapons. Other things they needed were extra uranium and extra heavy water to run the reactor at a higher rate. Norway, France, and the United States provided the heavy water and &#8220;Operation Plumbat&#8221; provided the uranium.

After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.[34] Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums &#8220;Plumbat,&#8221; which means lead, hence &#8220;Operation Plumbat.&#8221;[35] The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.[36] Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.[37]

Norway sold 20 tons of heavy water to Israel in 1959 for use in an experimental power reactor. Norway insisted on the right to inspect the heavy water for 32 years, but did so only once, in April 1961, while it was still in storage barrels at Dimona. Israel simply promised that the heavy water was for peaceful purposes. In addition, quantities much more than what would be required for the peaceful purpose reactors were imported. Norway either colluded or at the least was very slow to ask to inspect as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) rules required.[38] Norway and Israel concluded an agreement in 1990 for Israel to sell back 10.5 tons of the heavy water to Norway. Recent calculations reveal that Israel has used two tons and will retain eight tons more.[39]

Author Seymour Hersh, writing in the Samson Option says Prime Minister Levi Eshkol delayed starting weapons production even after Dimona was finished.[40] The reactor operated and the plutonium collected, but remained unseparated. The first extraction of plutonium probably occurred in late 1965. By 1966, enough plutonium was on hand to develop a weapon in time for the Six-Day War in 1967. Some type of non-nuclear test, perhaps a zero yield or implosion test, occurred on November 2, 1966. After this time, considerable collaboration between Israel and South Africa developed and continued through the 1970s and 1980s. South Africa became Israel's primary supplier of uranium for Dimona. A Center for Nonproliferation Studies report lists four separate Israel-South Africa &#8220;clandestine nuclear deals.&#8221; Three concerned yellowcake and one was tritium.[41] Other sources of yellowcake may have included Portugal.[42]

Egypt attempted unsuccessfully to obtain nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union both before and after the Six-Day War. President Nasser received from the Soviet Union a questionable nuclear guarantee instead and declared that Egypt would develop its own nuclear program.[43 ] His rhetoric of 1965 and 1966 about preventive war and Israeli nuclear weapons coupled with overflights of the Dimona rector contributed to the tensions that led to war. The Egyptian Air Force claims to have first overflown Dimona and recognized the existence of a nuclear reactor in 1965.[44 ] Of the 50 American HAWK antiaircraft missiles in Israeli hands, half ringed Dimona by 1965.[45] Israel considered the Egyptian overflights of May 16, 1967 as possible pre-strike reconnaissance. One source lists such Egyptian overflights, along with United Nations peacekeeper withdrawal and Egyptian troop movements into the Sinai, as one of the three &#8220;tripwires&#8221; which would drive Israel to war.[46] There was an Egyptian military plan to attack Dimona at the start of any war but Nasser vetoed it.[47] He believed Israel would have the bomb in 1968.[48] Israel assembled two nuclear bombs and ten days later went to war.[49] Nasser's plan, if he had one, may have been to gain and consolidate territorial gains before Israel had a nuclear option.[50] He was two weeks too late.

The Israelis aggressively pursued an aircraft delivery system from the United States. President Johnson was less emphatic about nonproliferation than President Kennedy-or perhaps had more pressing concerns, such as Vietnam. He had a long history of both Jewish friends and pressing political contributors coupled with some first hand experience of the Holocaust, having toured concentration camps at the end of World War II.[51] Israel pressed him hard for aircraft (A-4E Skyhawks initially and F-4E Phantoms later) and obtained agreement in 1966 under the condition that the aircraft would not be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The State Department attempted to link the aircraft purchases to continued inspection visits. President Johnson overruled the State Department concerning Dimona inspections.[52] Although denied at the time, America delivered the F-4Es, on September 5, 1969, with nuclear capable hardware intact.[53]

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968, putting the plutonium separation plant into full operation. Israel began producing three to five bombs a year. The book Critical Mass asserts that Israel had two bombs in 1967, and that Prime Minister Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during the Six-Day War.[54] Avner Cohen in his recent book, Israel and the Bomb, agrees that Israel had a deliverable nuclear capability in the 1967 war. He quotes Munya Mardor, leader of Rafael, the Armament Development Authority, and other unnamed sources, that Israel &#8220;cobbled together&#8221; two deliverable devices.[55]

Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.[56]

In 1971, Israel began purchasing krytrons, ultra high-speed electronic switching tubes that are &#8220;dual-use," having both industrial and nuclear weapons applications as detonators. In the 1980s, the United States charged an American, Richard Smith (or Smyth), with smuggling 810 krytrons to Israel.[57] He vanished before trial and reportedly lives outside Tel Aviv. The Israelis apologized for the action saying that the krytrons were for medical research.[58] Israel returned 469 of the krytrons but the rest, they declared, had been destroyed in testing conventional weapons. Some believe they went to South Africa.[59] Smyth has also been reported to have been involved in a 1972 smuggling operation to obtain solid rocket fuel binder compounds for the Jericho II missile and guidance component hardware.[60] Observers point to the Jericho missile itself as proof of a nuclear capability as it is not suited to the delivery of conventional munitions.[61]

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that &#8220;this is the end of the third temple,&#8221; referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. &#8220;Temple&#8221; was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her &#8220;kitchen cabinet&#8221; made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.[62]

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October. The U.S. decided to open an aerial resupply pipeline to Israel, and Israeli aircraft began picking up supplies that day. Although stockpile depletion remained a concern, the military situation stabilized on October 8th and 9th as Israeli reserves poured into the battle and averted disaster. Well before significant American resupply had reached Israeli forces, the Israelis counterattacked and turned the tide on both fronts. 

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.[63] Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.[64]

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.[65] There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to &#8220;going nuclear.&#8221;[66]

A similar Soviet pipeline to the Arabs, equally robust, may or may not have included a ship with nuclear weapons on it, detected from nuclear trace emissions and shadowed by the Americans from the Dardanelles. The Israelis believe that the Soviets discovered Israeli nuclear preparations from COSMOS satellite photographs and decided to equalize the odds.[67] The Soviet ship arrived in Alexandria on either 18 or 23 October (sources disagree), and remained, without unloading, until November 1973. The ship may have represented a Soviet guarantee to the Arab combatants to neutralize the Israeli nuclear option.[68] While some others dismiss the story completely, the best-written review article concludes that the answer is &#8220;obscure.&#8221; Soviet premier Leonid Brezhnev threatened, on 24 October, to airlift Soviet airborne troops to reinforce the Egyptians cut off on the eastern side of the Suez Canal and put seven Soviet airborne divisions on alert.[69] Recent evidence indicates that the Soviets sent nuclear missile submarines also.[70] Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine claimed that the two Soviet SCUD brigades deployed in Egypt each had a nuclear warhead. American satellite photos seemed to confirm this. The U.S. passed to Israel images of trucks, of the type used to transport nuclear warheads, parked near the launchers.[71] President Nixon's response was to bring the U.S. to worldwide nuclear alert the next day, whereupon Israel went to nuclear alert a third time.[72] This sudden crisis quickly faded as Prime Minister Meir agreed to a cease-fire, relieving the pressure on the Egyptian Third Army.

Shimon Peres had argued for a pre-war nuclear demonstration to deter the Arabs. Arab strategies and war aims in 1967 may have been restricted because of a fear of the Israeli &#8220;bomb in the basement,&#8221; the undeclared nuclear option. The Egyptians planned to capture an eastern strip next to the Suez Canal and then hold. The Syrians did not aggressively commit more forces to battle or attempt to drive through the 1948 Jordan River border to the Israeli center. Both countries seemed not to violate Israel proper and avoided triggering one of the unstated Israeli reasons to employ nuclear weapons.[73] Others discount any Arab planning based on nuclear capabilities.[74] Peres also credits Dimona with bringing Anwar Sadat to Jerusalem to make peace.[75] This position was seemingly confirmed by Sadat in a private conversation with Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman.[76]

At the end of the Yom Kippur War (a nation shaking experience), Israel has her nuclear arsenal fully functional and tested by a deployment. The arsenal, still opaque and unspoken, was no longer a secret, especially to the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb up the Basement Stairs

Never Again!

- Reportedly welded on the
first Israeli nuclear bomb[77] 

Shortly after the 1973 war, Israel allegedly fielded considerable nuclear artillery consisting of American 175 mm and 203 mm self-propelled artillery pieces, capable of firing nuclear shells. If true, this shows that Dimona had rapidly solved the problems of designing smaller weapons since the crude 1967 devices. If true, these low yield, tactical nuclear artillery rounds could reach at least 25 miles. The Israeli Defense Force did have three battalions of the 175mm artillery (36 tubes), reportedly with 108 nuclear shells and more for the 203mm tubes. Some sources describe a program to extend the range to 45 miles. They may have offered the South Africans these low yield, miniaturized, shells described as, &#8220;the best stuff we got.&#8221;[78] By 1976, according to one unclassified source, the Central Intelligence Agency believed that the Israelis were using plutonium from Dimona and had 10 to 20 nuclear weapons available.[79]

In 1972, two Israeli scientists, Isaiah Nebenzahl and Menacehm Levin, developed a cheaper, faster uranium enrichment process. It used a laser beam for isotope separation. It could reportedly enrich seven grams of Uranium 235 sixty percent in one day.[80] Sources later reported that Israel was using both centrifuges and lasers to enrich uranium.[81]

Questions remained regarding full-scale nuclear weapons tests. Primitive gun assembled type devices need no testing. Researchers can test non-nuclear components of other types separately and use extensive computer simulations. Israel received data from the 1960 French tests, and one source concludes that Israel accessed information from U.S. tests conducted in the 1950s and early 1960s. This may have included both boosted and thermonuclear weapons data.[82] Underground testing in a hollowed out cavern is difficult to detect. A West Germany Army Magazine, Wehrtechnik, in June 1976, claimed that Western reports documented a 1963 underground test in the Negev. Other reports show a test at Al-Naqab, Negev in October 1966.[83]

A bright flash in the south Indian Ocean, observed by an American satellite on 22 September 1979, is widely believed to be a South Africa-Israel joint nuclear test. It was, according to some, the third test of a neutron bomb. The first two were hidden in clouds to fool the satellite and the third was an accident&#8212;the weather cleared.[84] Experts differ on these possible tests. Several writers report that the scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory believed it to have been a nuclear explosion while a presidential panel decided otherwise.[85] President Carter was just entering the Iran hostage nightmare and may have easily decided not to alter 30 years of looking the other way.[86] The explosion was almost certainly an Israeli bomb, tested at the invitation of the South Africans. It was more advanced than the &#8220;gun type&#8221; bombs developed by the South Africans.[87] One report claims it was a test of a nuclear artillery shell.[88] A 1997 Israeli newspaper quoted South African deputy foreign minister, Aziz Pahad, as confirming it was an Israeli test with South African logistical support.[89]

Controversy over possible nuclear testing continues to this day. In June 1998, a Member of the Knesset accused the government of an underground test near Eilat on May 28, 1998. Egyptian &#8220;nuclear experts&#8221; had made similar charges. The Israeli government hotly denied the claims.[90]

Not only were the Israelis interested in American nuclear weapons development data, they were interested in targeting data from U.S. intelligence. Israel discovered that they were on the Soviet target list. American-born Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard obtained satellite-imaging data of the Soviet Union, allowing Israel to target accurately Soviet cities. This showed Israel's intention to use its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent political lever, or retaliatory capability against the Soviet Union itself. Israel also used American satellite imagery to plan the 7 June 1981 attack on the Tammuz-1 reactor at Osiraq, Iraq. This daring attack, carried out by eight F-16s accompanied by six F-15s punched a hole in the concrete reactor dome before the reactor began operation (and just days before an Israeli election). It delivered 15 delay-fused 2000 pound bombs deep into the reactor structure (the 16th bomb hit a nearby hall). The blasts shredded the reactor and blew out the dome foundations, causing it to collapse on the rubble. This was the world's first attack on a nuclear reactor.[91]

Since 19 September 1988, Israel has worked on its own satellite recon- naissance system to decrease reliance on U.S. sources. On that day, they launched the Offeq-1 satellite on the Shavit booster, a system closely related to the Jericho-II missile. They launched the satellite to the west away from the Arabs and against the earth's rotation, requiring even more thrust. The Jericho-II missile is capable of sending a one ton nuclear payload 5,000 kilometers. Offeq-2 went up on 3 April 1990. The launch of the Offeq-3 failed on its first attempt on 15 September 1994, but was successful 5 April 1995.[92]

Mordechai Vanunu provided the best look at the Israeli nuclear arsenal in 1985 complete with photographs.[93] A technician from Dimona who lost his job, Vanunu secretly took photographs, immigrated to Australia and published some of his material in the London Sunday Times. He was subsequently kidnapped by Israeli agents, tried and imprisoned. His data shows a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.[94] The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs show a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing.[95] He revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium. These facts have increased the estimates of total Israeli nuclear stockpiles (see Appendix A).[96] In the words of one American, &#8220;[the Israelis] can do anything we or the Soviets can do.&#8221;[97] Vanunu not only made the technical details of the Israeli program and stockpile public but in his wake, Israeli began veiled official acknowledgement of the potent Israeli nuclear deterrent. They began bringing the bomb up the basement stairs if not out of the basement.

Israel went on full-scale nuclear alert again on the first day of Desert Storm, 18 January 1991. Seven SCUD missiles were fired against the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa by Iraq (only two actually hit Tel Aviv and one hit Haifa). This alert lasted for the duration of the war, 43 days. Over the course of the war, Iraq launched around 40 missiles in 17 separate attacks at Israel. There was little loss of life: two killed directly, 11 indirectly, with many structures damaged and life disrupted.[98] Several supposedly landed near Dimona, one of them a close miss.[99] Threats of retaliation by the Shamir government if the Iraqis used chemical warheads were interpreted to mean that Israel intended to launch a nuclear strike if gas attacks occurred. One Israeli commentator recommended that Israel should signal Iraq that &#8220;any Iraqi action against Israeli civilian populations, with or without gas, may leave Iraq without Baghdad.&#8221;[100] Shortly before the end of the war the Israelis tested a &#8220;nuclear capable&#8221; missile which prompted the United States into intensifying its SCUD hunting in western Iraq to prevent any Israeli response.[101] The Israeli Air Force set up dummy SCUD sites in the Negev for pilots to practice on&#8212;they found it no easy task.[102] American government concessions to Israel for not attacking (in addition to Israeli Patriot missile batteries) were:

Allowing Israel to designate 100 targets inside Iraq for the coalition to destroy,
Satellite downlink to increase warning time on the SCUD attacks (present and future),
&#8220;Technical parity with Saudi jet fighters in perpetuity.&#8221;[103]

All of this validated the nuclear arsenal in the minds of the Israelis. In particular the confirmed capability of Arab states without a border with Israel, the so-called &#8220;second tier&#8221; states, to reach out and touch Israel with ballistic missiles confirmed Israel's need for a robust first strike capability.][104] Current military contacts between Israel and India, another nuclear power, bring up questions of nuclear cooperation.[105] Pakistani sources have already voiced concerns over a possible joint Israeli-Indian attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities.[106] A recent Parameters article speculated on Israel's willingness to furnish nuclear capabilities or assistance to certain states, such as Turkey.[107] A retired Israeli Defense Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Amnon Shahak, has declared, &#8220;all methods are acceptable in withholding nuclear capabilities from an Arab state.&#8221;[108]

As the Israeli bomb comes out of the basement, open discussion, even in Israel, is occurring on why the Israelis feel they need an arsenal not used in at least two if not three wars. Avner Cohen states: &#8220;It [Israel] must be in a position to threaten another Hiroshima to prevent another holocaust.&#8221;[109] In July 1998 Shimon Peres was quoted in the Jordan Times as saying, &#8220;We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo,&#8221;[110] referring to the peace process.

One list of current reasons for an Israeli nuclear capability is:

To deter a large conventional attack,
To deter all levels of unconventional (chemical, biological, nuclear) attacks,
To preempt enemy nuclear attacks,
To support conventional preemption against enemy nuclear assets,
To support conventional preemption against enemy non-nuclear (conventional, chemical, biological) assets,
For nuclear warfighting,
The &#8220;Samson Option&#8221; (last resort destruction).[111]

The most alarming of these is the nuclear warfighting. The Israelis have developed, by several accounts, low yield neutron bombs able to destroy troops with minimal damage to property.[112] In 1990, during the Second Gulf War, an Israeli reserve major general recommended to America that it &#8220;use non-contaminating tactical nuclear weapons&#8221; against Iraq.[113] Some have speculated that the Israelis will update their nuclear arsenal to &#8220;micronukes&#8221; and &#8220;tinynukes&#8221; which would be very useful to attack point targets and other tactical or barrier (mining) uses.[114] These would be very useful for hardened deeply buried command and control facilities and for airfield destruction without exposing Israeli pilots to combat.[115] Authors have made the point that Israeli professional military schools do not teach nuclear tactics and would not use them in the close quarters of Israel. Many Israeli officers have attended American military schools where they learned tactical use in crowded Europe.[116]

However, Jane's Intelligence Review has recently reported an Israeli review of nuclear strategy with a shift from tactical nuclear warheads to long range missiles.[117] Israel always has favored the long reach, whether to Argentina for Adolph Eichmann, to Iraq to strike a reactor, Entebbe for hostages, Tunisia to hit the PLO, or by targeting the Soviet Union's cities. An esteemed Israeli military author has speculated that Israel is pursuing an R&D program to provide MIRVs (multiple independent reentry vehicles) on their missiles.[118]

The government of Israel recently ordered three German Dolphin Class 800 submarine, to be delivered in late 1999. Israel will then have a second strike capability with nuclear cruise missiles, and this capability could well change the nuclear arms race in the Middle East.[119] Israeli rhetoric on the new submarines labels them &#8220;national deterrent&#8221; assets. Projected capabilities include a submarine-launched nuclear missile with a 350-kilometer range.[120] Israel has been working on sea launch capability for missiles since the 1960s.[121] The first basing options for the new second-strike force of nuclear missile capable submarines include Oman, an Arab nation with unofficial Israeli relations, located strategically near Iran.[122] A report indicates that the Israel Defense Ministry has formally gone to the government with a request to authorize a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was hit with first strike nuclear weapons. This report comes in the wake of a recent Iran Shihab-3 missile test and indications to Israel that Iran is two to three years from a nuclear warhead.[123] Israeli statements stress that Iran's nuclear potential would be problem to all and would require &#8220;American leadership, with serious participation of the G-7 . . . .&#8221;[124]

A recent study highlighted Israel's extreme vulnerability to a first strike and an accompanying vulnerability even to a false alarm.[125] Syria's entire defense against Israel seems to rest on chemical weapons and warheads.[126] One scenario involves Syria making a quick incursion into the Golan and then threatening chemical strikes, perhaps with a new, more lethal (protective-mask-penetrable) Russian nerve gas if Israel resists.[127] Their use would drive Israel to nuclear use. Israeli development of an anti- missile defense, the Arrow, a fully fielded (30-50[128]) Jericho II ballistic missile, and the soon-to-arrive strategic submarine force, seems to have produced a coming change in defense force structure. The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, quotes the Israeli Chief of Staff discussing the establishment of a &#8220;strategic command to . . . prepare an adequate response to the long term threats. . . &#8221;[129]

The 1994 accord with Jordan, allowing limited Israeli military presence in Jordanian skies, could make the flying distance to several potential adversaries considerably shorter.[130] Israel is concerned about Iran's desire to obtain nuclear weapons and become a regional leader, coupled with large numbers of Shiite ******* in southern Lebanon. The Israeli Air Force commanding general issued a statement saying Israel would &#8220;consider an attack&#8221; if any country gets &#8220;close to achieving a nuclear capability.&#8221;[131] The Israelis are obviously considering actions capable of stopping such programs and are buying aircraft such as the F-15I with sufficient operational range. At the first delivery of these 4,000 kilometer range fighters, the Israeli comment was, &#8220;the aircraft would help counter a growing nuclear threat.&#8221;[132] They consider such regional nation nuclear programs to be a sufficient cause for war. Their record of accomplishment is clear: having hit the early Iraqi nuclear effort, they feel vindicated by Desert Storm. They also feel that only the American and Israeli nuclear weapons kept Iraq's Saddam Hussein from using chemical or biological weapons against Israel.[133]

Israel, like Iran, has desires of regional power. The 1956 alliance with France and Britain might have been a first attempt at regional hegemony. Current debate in the Israeli press considers offering Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and perhaps Syria (after a peace agreement) an Israeli nuclear umbrella of protection.[134] A nuclear Iran or Iraq might use its nuclear weapons to protect some states in the region, threaten others, and attempt to control oil prices.[135]

Another speculative area concerns Israeli nuclear security and possible misuse. What is the chain of decision and control of Israel's weapons? How susceptible are they to misuse or theft? With no open, frank, public debate on nuclear issues, there has accordingly been no debate or information on existing safeguards. This has led to accusations of &#8220;monolithic views and sinister intentions.&#8221;[1360] Would a right wing military government decide to employ nuclear weapons recklessly? Ariel Sharon, an outspoken proponent of &#8220;Greater Israel&#8221; was quoted as saying, &#8220;Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.&#8221;[137] Could the Gush Emunim, a right wing religious organization, or others, hijack a nuclear device to &#8220;liberate&#8221; the Temple Mount for the building of the third temple? Chances are small but could increase as radicals decry the peace process.[138] A 1997 article reviewing the Israeli Defense Force repeatedly stressed the possibilities of, and the need to guard against, a religious, right wing military coup, especially as the proportion of religious in the military increases.[139 ]

Israel is a nation with a state religion, but its top leaders are not religious Jews. The intricacies of Jewish religious politics and rabbinical law do affect their politics and decision processes. In Jewish law, there are two types of war, one obligatory and mandatory (milkhemet mitzvah) and the one authorized but optional (milkhemet reshut).[140] The labeling of Prime Minister Begin's &#8220;Peace for Galilee&#8221; operation as a milchemet brera (&#8220;war of choice&#8221 was one of the factors causing it to lose support.[141] Interpretation of Jewish law concerning nuclear weapons does not permit their use for mutual assured destruction. However, it does allow possession and threatening their use, even if actual use is not justifiable under the law. Interpretations of the law allow tactical use on the battlefield, but only after warning the enemy and attempting to make peace. How much these intricacies affect Israeli nuclear strategy decisions is unknown.[142]

The secret nature of the Israeli nuclear program has hidden the increasing problems of the aging Dimona reactor and adverse worker health effects. Information is only now public as former workers sue the government. This issue is now linked to continued tritium production for the boosted anti-tank and anti-missile nuclear warheads that Israeli continues to need. Israel is attempting to obtain a new, more efficient, tritium production technology developed in India.[143]

One other purpose of Israeli nuclear weapons, not often stated, but obvious, is their &#8220;use&#8221; on the United States. America does not want Israel's nuclear profile raised.[144] They have been used in the past to ensure America does not desert Israel under increased Arab, or oil embargo, pressure and have forced the United States to support Israeli diplomatically against the Soviet Union. Israel used their existence to guarantee a continuing supply of American conventional weapons, a policy likely to continue.[145]

Regardless of the true types and numbers (see Appendix A) of Israeli nuclear weapons, they have developed a sophisticated system, by myriad methods, and are a nuclear power to be reckoned with. Their nuclear ambiguity has served their purposes well but Israel is entering a different phase of visibility even as their nuclear capability is entering a new phase. This new visibility may not be in America's interest.[146] Many are predicting the Israeli nuclear arsenal will become less useful &#8220;out of the basement&#8221; and possibly spur a regional arms race. If so, Israel has a 5-10 year lead time at present before mutual assured destruction, Middle East style, will set in. Would regional mutual second strike capability, easier to acquire than superpower mutual second strike capability, result in regional stability? Some think so.[147] Current Israeli President Ezer Weizman has stated &#8220;the nuclear issue is gaining momentum [and the] next war will not be conventional.[148]

Appendix A

Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal



Notes

1. Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy (New York: Random House, 1991), 223.

2. Aronson, Slomo and Brosh, Oded, The Politics and Strategy of Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East, the Opacity Theory, and Reality, 1960-1991-An Israeli Perspective (Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 1992), 20.

3. Karsh, Efraim, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 82.

4. Cohen, Avner, Israel and the Bomb (New York: Columbia University Press, 1998), 16.

5. Cordesman, Anthony, Perilous Prospects: The Peace Process and the Arab-Israeli Military Balance (Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1996), 118.

6. Pry, Peter, Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (Boulder, Colorado: Westview, 1984), 5-6.

7. Quoted in Weissman, Steve and Krosney, Herbert. The Islamic Bomb: The Nuclear Threat to Israel and the Middle East. (New York, New York: Times Books, 1981), 105.

8. &#8220;Former Official Says France Helped Build Israel's Dimona Complex.&#8221; Nucleonics Week October 16, 1986, 6.

9. Milhollin, Gary, &#8220;Heavy Water Cheaters.&#8221; Foreign Policy (1987-88): 101-102.

10. Cordesman, 1991, 127.

11. Federation of American Scientists, &#8220;Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program.&#8221; 10 December 1997, n.p. On-line. Internet, 27 October 1998. Available from http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Israel/Isrhist.html.

12. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in Israel (New Delhi: S. B. Nangia Books, 1996), 3.

13. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 48-49.

14. Bennett, Jeremy, The Suez Crisis. BBC Video. n.d. Videocassette and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi. Every Spy a Prince. The Complete History of Israel's Intelligence Community. (Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990), 63-69.

15. Weissman and Krosney, 112.

16. &#8220;Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal&#8221; (London) Sunday Times No. 8,461, 5 October 1986, 1, 4-5.

17. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 57-59.

18. Peres, Shimon, Battling for Peace. A Memoir (New York, New York: Random House, 1995), 122.

19. Pry, 10.

20. Loftus, John and Aarons, Mark, The Secret War Against the Jews. How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People (New York, New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1994), 287-303.

21. Green, Stephen, Taking Sides. America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1984), 152.

22. Cohen, Avner, &#8220;Most Favored Nation.&#8221; The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 51, no. 1 (January-February 1995): 44-53. 

23. Hersh, The Samson Option, 196.

24. See Cohen, Avner, &#8220;Israel's Nuclear History: The Untold Kennedy-Eshkol Dimona Correspondence.&#8221; Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 159-194 and Cohen, Avner, Comp. &#8220;Recently Declassified 1963 Correspondence between President Kennedy and Prime Ministers Ben-Gurion and Eshkol.&#8221; Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 195-207. Much of the documentation has been posted to http:\\www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/israel.

25. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit.,114-117

26. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 82-83.

27. Spector, Leonard S., The Undeclared Bomb (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Ballinger Publishers, 1988), 387 (n.22).

28. Quoted in Stevens, Elizabeth. &#8220;Israel's Nuclear Weapons&#8212;A Case Study.&#8221; 14 pages. On line. Internet, 23 October 1998. Available from
http://infomanage.com/nonproliferation/najournal/israelinucs.html.

29. Green, Taking Sides, 148-179 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 197-198.

30. Weissman and Krosney, 119-124.

31. Black, Ian and Morris, Benny, Israel's Secret Wars. A history of Israel's Intelligence Services (New York, New York: Grove Weidenfeld, 1991), 418-419.

32. Hersh, 257.

33. Green, Stephen, Living by the Sword: America and Israel in the Middle East, 1968-1987 (London: Faber, 1988), 63-80.

34. Cordesman, 1991, 120.

35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.

38. Milhollin, 100-119.

39. Stanghelle, Harold, &#8220;Israel to sell back 10.5 tons.&#8221; Arbeiderbladet, Oslo, Norway, 28 June 1990 in: Center for Nonproliferation Studies, &#8220;Nuclear Developments,&#8221; 28 June 1990, 34-35; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

40. Hersh, op. cit., 139.

41. Center for Nonproliferation Studies. &#8220;Israeli Friends,&#8221; ISIS Report, May 1994, 4; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

42. Abecasis, Rachel, &#8220;Uranium reportedly offered to China, Israel.&#8221; Radio Renascenca, Lisbon, 9 December 1992 quoted in Center for Nonproliferation, &#8220;Proliferation Issues,&#8221; 23 December, 1992, 25; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

43. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 231-232 and 256-257.

44. Nordeen, Lon O., Nicolle, David, Phoenix over the Nile (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institute Press, 1996), 192-193.

45. O'Balance, Edgar, The Third Arab-Israeli War (London: Faber and Faber, 1972), 54.

46. Brecher, Michael, Decision in Crisis. Israel, 1967 and 1973 (Berkley, California: University of California Press, 1980), 104, 230-231.

47. Cohen, Avner. &#8220;Cairo, Dimona, and the June 1967 War.&#8221; Middle East Journal 50, no. 2 (Spring 1996), 190-210.

48. Creveld, Martin van. The Sword and the Olive. A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force (New York, New York: Public Affairs, 1998), 174.

49. Burrows, William E. and Windrem, Robert, Critical Mass. The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1994), 282-283.

50. Aronson, Shlomo, Israel's Nuclear Options, ACIS Working Paper No. 7. Los Angeles, California: University of California Center for Arms Control and International Security, 1977, 3, and Sorenson, David S., &#8220;Middle East Regional Studies-AY99,&#8221; Air War College: Maxwell Air Force Base, AL, 542.

51. Hersh, op. cit., 126-128.

52. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 210-213.

53. Spector, Leonard S., &#8220;Foreign-Supplied Combat Aircraft: Will They Drop the Third World Bomb?&#8221; Journal of International Affairs 40, no. 1(1986): 145 (n. 5) and Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 18-19.

54. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280.

55. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 237.

56. Ibid., 273-274.

57. Milhollin, op. cit., 103-104.

58. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, Friend in Deed: Inside the U.S.-Israel Alliance (New York New York: Hyperion, 1994), 299.

59. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 464-465 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 304-305.

60. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 179.

61. Dowty, Alan. &#8220;Israel and Nuclear Weapons.&#8221; Midstream 22, no. 7 (November 1976), 8-9.

62. Hersh, op. cit., 217, 222-226, and Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

63. Green, op. cit., Living by the Sword, 90-99.

64. Loftus and Aarons, op. cit., 316-317.

65 Smith, Gerard C. and Cobban, Helena. &#8220;A Blind Eye To Nuclear Proliferation.&#8221; Foreign Affairs 68, no. 3(1989), 53-70.

66. Hersh, op. cit., 230-231.

67. O'Balance, Edgar, No Victor, No Vanquished. The Yom Kippur War (San Rafael, California: Presido Press, 1978), 175.

68. Ibid., 234-235 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 15-18. 

69. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 396 (n. 62); Garthoff, Raymond L., D&#65533;tente and Confrontation: American-Soviet Relations from Nixon to Reagan (Washington, DC: The Brookings Institute, 1994), 426, n76 and Bandmann, Yona and Cordova, Yishai. &#8220;The Soviet Nuclear Threat Towards the Close of the Yom Kippur War.&#8221; Jerusalem Journal of International Relations 1980 5, no. 1, 107-9.

70. Cherkashin, Nikolai, &#8220;On Moscow's Orders.&#8221; Russian Life, 39, no. 10 (October 1996), 13-15.

71. Brownlow, Cecil. &#8220;Soviets poise three-front global drive. Nuclear weapons in Egypt, artillery buildup at Guantanamo, Communist concentrations in Vietnam aimed at political gains.&#8221; Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 12-14; Holt, Robert. &#8220;Soviet Power Play.&#8221; Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 7 and Gur-Arieh, Danny, &#8220;A non-Conventional Look at Israel During '73 War.&#8221; IsraelWire Tuesday, October 6, 1998 17, 23; on-line, Internet 20 November 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

72. Hersh, op. cit., 321-235.

73. Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 220-221.

74. Evron, Yair, Israel's Nuclear Dilemma (Ithaca, New York: Cornell Publishing, 1994), 62-74.

75. Cohen, Avner, &#8220;Peres: Peacemaker, Nuclear Pioneer.&#8221; The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 52, no. 3 (May/June 1996), 16-17 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 11-12.

76. Karsh, op. cit., 86.

77. Quoted in Hersh, op. cit., 180 and Stevens, op. cit., 1-14.

78. Hersh, op. cit., 216, 276 and Kaku, Michio. &#8220;Contingency Plans: Nuclear Weapons after the Cold War.&#8221; In Altered States: A Reader in the New World Order, Bennis, Phyllis and Moushabeck, Michel, Eds. (New York, New York: 1993), 66.

79. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

80. Gillette, Robert, &#8220;Uranium Enrichment: Rumors of Israeli Progress with Lasers.&#8221; Science 183, no. 4130 (22 March 1974), 1172-1174.

81. Barnaby, Frank, The Invisible Bomb: The Nuclear Arms Race in the Middle East (London: I. B. Tauris, 1988), 25.

82. &#8220;Israel: The Covert Connection.&#8221; Frontline, PBS Network, May 16, 1989, quoted in Spector, Leonard S., and McDonough, Mark G., with Medeiros, Evan S., Tracking Nuclear Proliferation. A Guide in Maps and Charts, 1995 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1995).

83. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East: Dimensions and Responsibilities (Princeton, New Jersey: Kingston Press, 1984), 22-23.

84. Hersh, op. cit., 216.

85. Barnaby, Frank, &#8220;Capping Israel's Nuclear Volcano,&#8221; Between War and Peace. Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Karsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 98.

86. Hersh, op. cit., 271-275.

87. Nashif, op. cit., 32.

88. Gaffney, Mark, Dimona: The Third Temple? The Story Behind the Vanunu Revelation (Brattleboro, Vermont: Amana Books, 1989), 100-101.

89. Pedatzur, Re'uven, &#8220;South African Statement On Nuclear Test Said to Serve Israel,&#8221; Ha'aretz, 29 July 1997. On line: Internet, 22 November 1998 and Kelley, Robert. &#8220;The Iraqi and South African Nuclear W&#8221;&#65533;Nuclear Abstracts," 1 March 1996, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, both available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

90. &#8220;Was there a Nuclear Test near Eilat?&#8221; IsraelWire, 16 June 1998, or on line Internet, 22 November, 1998, available from israelwire.com and &#8220;Deputy Defense Minister Denies Israeli Nuclear Testing.&#8221; Israeli Wire, June 18, 1998, or on-line. Internet, 13 October 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

91. McKinnon, Dan. Bullseye One Reactor. The Story of Israel's Bold Surprise Air Attack That Destroyed Iraqi's Nuclear Bomb Facility (Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing Ltd., 1987).

92. &#8220;Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, Report on the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Moscow, 1993.&#8221; Journal of Palestine Studies XXII, no. 4 (Summer 1993): 135-140; Creveld, Martin van, Nuclear Proliferation and the Future Of Conflict (New York: The Free Press, 1993), 105; and Clark, Philip. &#8220;&#65533;Third successful Israeli satellite launch.&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review 7, no. 6 (June 1995), 25-26.

93. Sunday Times, London, op. cit., 1,4-5.

94. Toscano, Louis, Triple Cross: Israel, the Atomic Bomb and the Man Who Spilled the Secrets (New York: Carol Publishing Group, 1990).

95. Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 134.

96. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 165-166.

97. Hersh, op. cit., 291.

98. Levran, Aharon, Israeli Strategy after Desert Storm: Lessons from the Second Gulf War (London: Frank Cass, 1997), 1-10.

99. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 278.

100. Cohen, Avner and Miller, Marvin, Nuclear Shadows in the Middle East: Prospects for Arms Control in the Wake of the Gulf Crisis (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1990), 10.

101. Aronson and Brosh, op. cit., 276.

102. Raviv and Melman, op. cit., 399.

103. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 297n and Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 321-322.

104. Levran, op. cit., 8-10.

105. Ahmar, Moonis, &#8220;Pakistan and Israel: Distant Adversaries or Neighbors?&#8221; Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, 1996, 20, no.1, 43-44.

106. &#8220;Nuclear proliferation didn't start in 1998 . . .and not in Pakistan nor with Islam,&#8221; Middle East Realities, or on-line, Internet, 21 September 1998, available from http://www.middleeast.org/1998_06_28.htm.

107. Garrity, Patrick J. &#8220;The Next Nuclear Questions.&#8221; Parameters, XXV, no. 4 (Winter 1995-96), 92-111.

108. Cohen, Eliezer. Israel's best defense: the First Full Story of the Israeli Air Force, (New York, New York: Random House, 1993), 495.

109. Cohen and Miller, op. cit., 18.

110. &#8220;Before Meeting with King, Peres Claims Israel's Nuclear Arsenal was built for Peace,&#8221; Jordan Times, July 14, 1998. Quoted in Sorenson, op. cit., 542.

111. Beres, Louis Rene, &#8220;Israel's Bomb in the Basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure', Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Harsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 113-133.

112. Hersh, op. cit., 319.

113. Amos, Deborah, Lines in the Sand: Desert Storm and the Remaking of the Arab World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), 105.

114. Dowler, Thomas W. and Howard II, Joseph H., &#8220;Countering the threat of the well-armed tyrant: A modest proposal for small nuclear weapons,&#8221; Strategic Review, XIX, no. 4 (Fall 1991), 34-40.

115. Beres, Louis Rene, &#8220;Israel's bomb in the basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure.' &#8221; In Karsh, Efraim, op. cit., Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 116.

116. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 265.

117. Hough, Harold, &#8220;Israel reviews its nuclear deterrent,&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review 10, no.11 (November 1998), 11-13.

118. Creveld, op. cit., 1993, 105.

119. Burrows, and Windrem, op. cit., 311-312 and &#8220;Israel begins test of nuclear missile submarines,&#8221; The Irish Times, July 2, 1998, or on-line, Internet, 24 December 1998, available from http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/0702/wor13.html.

120. Melman, Yossi, &#8220;Swimming with the Dolphins,&#8221; Ha'aretz, Tuesday, June 9, 1998, and &#8220;Report: Israel to get Subs with Nuclear Strike Capability,&#8221; Jerusalem Post, I July 3, 1998, 3 and Sorenson, op. cit., 543.

121. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 344-345, 422-423.

122. Shahak, Israel, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (London: Pluto Press, 1997), 72-73.

123. Davis, Douglas, &#8220;Defense Officials Said Urging Nuclear Second-Strike Capability,&#8221; Jerusalem Post, 6 August 1998, 3; or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

124. Inbar, Efraim, &#8220;Israel's security in a new international environment,&#8221; in Karsh, Efraim, Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 41.

125. Hough, Harold, &#8220;Could Israel's Nuclear Assets Survive a First Strike?&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review, September 1997, 407-410.

126. Terrill, W. Andrew, &#8220;The Chemical Warfare Legacy of the Yemen War.&#8221; Comparative Strategy, 10 (1991), 109-119.

127. Boyne, Sean, &#8220;Across the Great Divide. Will Assad go for the Golan?&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review, 10, no. 4 (April 1998), 21-24 and Cordesman, 1996, op. cit., 254.

128. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 243.

129, Harel, Amos and Barzilai, Amnon, &#8220;Mordechai says Arrow alone cannot protect against missiles,&#8221; Ha'aretz, 13 January 1999, or on-line, Internet, 13 January 1999, available from http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/3_9.htm

130. Shahak, op. cit., 78-79.

131. Chubin, Shahram, &#8220;Does Iran Want Nuclear Weapons?&#8221; Survival 37, no. 1 (Spring 1995), 91-93.

132. O'Sullivan, Arich, &#8220;New F-15I Warplanes Expand Israel's Reach,&#8221; The Jerusalem Post, 19 January 1997, or on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from Israel News | Online Israeli News Covering Israel & The Jewish World - JPost.

133. Karsh, op. cit., 9.

134. Shahak, op. cit., 4-5.

135. Garrity, op. cit., 92-111.

136. Dowty, op. cit., 8.

137. Gaffney, op. cit., 165.

138. Ibid., 37-38 and Friedman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement (New York, New York: Random House, 1992), 132-52.

139. Blanche, Ed, &#8220;Is the Myth Fading for the Israeli Army? &#8212; Part 1.&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review, 8, no. 12 (December 1996), 547-550 and Blanche, Ed. &#8220;Is the myth fading for the Israeli Army? &#8212; Part 2,&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review 9, no. 1 (January 1997), 25-28.

140. Cohen, Stuart A., The Scroll or the Sword? Dilemmas of Religion and Military Service in Israel (Amsterdam, Netherlands: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1997), 11-24.

141. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 298.

142. Broyde, Michael J., &#8220;Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition,&#8221; or on-line, Internet, 20 November 1998, available from Jewish Law - Articles ("Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition").

143. Hough, Harold, op. cit., 1998, 11-12 and Berger, Julian, &#8220;Court Fury At Israeli Reactor.&#8221; Guardian, 13 October 1997, in Center for Nonproliferation, &#8220;Nuclear Abstracts,&#8221; 13 October 1997, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

144. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 252.

145. Valry, Nicholas, &#8220;Israel's Silent Gamble with the Bomb,&#8221; New Scientist (12 December 1974), 807-09.

146. Harden, Major James D., Israeli Nuclear Weapons and War in the Middle East, Master's Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA, December 1997.

147. Dowdy, op. cit., 20.

148. Aronson, Geoffrey, &#8220;Hidden Agenda: US-Israeli Relations and the Nuclear Question,&#8221; Middle East Journal, 46, no. 4 (Autumn 1992), 619-630.

149. Data from Time, 12 April 1976, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

150. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280 and Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 273-274.

151. Tahtinen, Dale R., The Arab-Israel Military Balance Today (Washington, DC: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, 1973), 34.

152. &#8220;How Israel Got the Bomb.&#8221; Time, 12 April 1976, 39.

153. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 302.

154. Kaku, op. cit., 66 and Hersh, op. cit., 216.

155. Val&#65533;ry, op. cit., 807-09.

156. Data from CIA, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

157. Ottenberg, Michael, &#8220;Estimating Israel's Nuclear Capabilities,&#8221; Command, 30 (October 1994), 6-8. 

158. Pry, op. cit., 75.

159. Ibid., 111.

160. Data from NBC Nightly News, quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104 and Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

161. Data from Vanunu quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104.

162. Harkavy, Robert E. &#8220;After the Gulf War: The Future of the Israeli Nuclear Strategy,&#8221; The Washington Quarterly (Summer 1991), 164.

163. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

164. Albright, David, Berkhout, Frans and Walker, William, Plutonium and Highly Enriched Uranium 1996. World Inventories, Capabilities, and Policies (New York: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute And Oxford University Press, 1997), 262-263.

165. Hough, Harold, &#8220;Israel's Nuclear Infrastructure,&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review 6, no. 11 (November 1994), 508.

166. Ibid., 262-263.

167. Spector, and McDonough, with Medeiros, op. cit., 135.

168. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 283-284.

169. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 234.

170. Ibid., 234.

171. Ibid., 230, 243.

172. Brower, Kenneth S., &#8220;A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East,&#8221; Jane's Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.

173. Albright, Berkhout, and Walker, op. cit., 262-263.

USAF Counterproliferation Center

The USAF Counterproliferation Center was established in 1998 to provide education and research to the present and future leaders of the USAF, and thereby help them better prepare to counter the threat from weapons of mass destruction.

Barry R. Schneider, Director
USAF Counterproliferation Center
325 Chennault Circle
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427k

(334) 953-7538 (DSN (493-7538)

Email: Barry.Schneider@maxwell,af.mil



Israel's Nuclear Weapons

*
THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES: ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS*

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers

Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College

Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama

September 1999

The Counterproliferation Papers Series was established by the USAF Counterproliferation Center to provide information and analysis to U.S. national security policy-makers and USAF officers to assist them in countering the threat posed by adversaries equipped with weapons of mass destruction. Copies of papers in this series are available from the USAF Counterproliferation Center, 325 Chennault Circle, Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427. The fax number is (334) 953-7538; phone (334) 953-7538.

Counterproliferation Paper No. 2
USAF Counterproliferation Center
Air War College

Air University
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 36112-6427

The internet address for the USAF Counterproliferation Center is:
USAF Counterproliferation Center

Contents:

Page

Disclaimer i

The Author ii

Acknowledgments iii

Abstract iv

I. Introduction 1

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation 3

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project Through to Completion 9

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb Up the Basement Stairs 15

Appendix: Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal 23

Notes 25

Disclaimer

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

The Author

Colonel Warner D. Rocky Farr, Medical Corps, Master Flight Surgeon, U.S. Army, graduated from the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama before becoming the Command Surgeon, U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He also serves as the Surgeon for the U.S. Army Special Forces Command, U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, and the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. With thirty-three years of military service, he holds an Associate of Arts from the State University of New York, Bachelor of Science from Northeast Louisiana University, Doctor of Medicine from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Masters of Public Health from the University of Texas, and has completed medical residencies in aerospace medicine, and anatomic and clinical pathology. He is the only army officer to be board certified in these three specialties. Solo qualified in the TH-55A Army helicopter, he received flight training in the T-37 and T-38 aircraft as part of his USAF School of Aerospace Medicine residency.

Colonel Farr was a Master Sergeant Special Forces medic prior to receiving a direct commission to second lieutenant. He is now the senior Special Forces medical officer in the U.S. Army with prior assignments in the 5th, 7th, and 10th Special Forces Groups (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, in Vietnam, the United States, and Germany. He has advised the 12th and 20th Special Forces Groups (Airborne) in the reserves and national guard, served as Division Surgeon, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry), and as the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Army Aeromedical Center, Fort Rucker, Alabama.

Acknowledgments

I would like to acknowledge the assistance, guidance and encouragement from my Air War College (AWC) faculty research advisor, Dr. Andrew Terrill, instructor of the Air War College Arab-Israeli Wars course. Thanks are also due to the great aid of the Air University librarians. The author is also indebted to Captain J. R. Saunders, USN and Colonel Robert Sutton, USAF. Who also offered helpful suggestions.

Abstract

This paper is a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program drawn from a review of unclassified sources. Israel began its search for nuclear weapons at the inception of the state in 1948. As payment for Israeli participation in the Suez Crisis of 1956, France provided nuclear expertise and constructed a reactor complex for Israel at Dimona capable of large-scale plutonium production and reprocessing. The United States discovered the facility by 1958 and it was a subject of continual discussions between American presidents and Israeli prime ministers. Israel used delay and deception to at first keep the United States at bay, and later used the nuclear option as a bargaining chip for a consistent American conventional arms supply. After French disengagement in the early 1960s, Israel progressed on its own, including through several covert operations, to project completion. Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons. Israel has most probably conducted several nuclear bomb tests. They have continued to modernize and vertically proliferate and are now one of the world's larger nuclear powers. Using bomb in the basement nuclear opacity, Israel has been able to use its arsenal as a deterrent to the Arab world while not technically violating American nonproliferation requirements.

The Third Temple's Holy of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr

I. Introduction

This is the end of the Third Temple.

- Attributed to Moshe Dayan

during the Yom Kippur War[1]

As Zionists in Palestine watched World War II from their distant sideshow, what lessons were learned? The soldiers of the Empire of Japan vowed on their emperor's sacred throne to fight to the death and not face the inevitability of an American victory. Many Jews wondered if the Arabs would try to push them into the Mediterranean Sea. After the devastating American nuclear attack on Japan, the soldier leaders of the empire reevaluated their fight to the death position. Did the bomb give the Japanese permission to surrender and live? It obviously played a military role, a political role, and a peacemaking role. How close was the mindset of the Samurai culture to the Islamic culture? Did David Ben-Gurion take note and wonder if the same would work for Israel?[2] Could Israel find the ultimate deterrent that would convince her opponents that they could never, ever succeed? Was Israel's ability to cause a modern holocaust the best way to guarantee never having another one?

The use of unconventional weapons in the Middle East is not new. The British had used chemical artillery shells against the Turks at the second battle of Gaza in 1917. They continued chemical shelling against the Shiites in Iraq in 1920 and used aerial chemicals in the 1920s and 1930s in Iraq.[3]

Israel's involvement with nuclear technology starts at the founding of the state in 1948. Many talented Jewish scientists immigrated to Palestine during the thirties and forties, in particular, Ernst David Bergmann. He would become the director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission and the founder of Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Bergmann, a close friend and advisor of Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, counseled that nuclear energy could compensate for Israel's poor natural resources and small pool of military manpower. He pointed out that there was just one nuclear energy, not two, suggesting nuclear weapons were part of the plan.[4] As early as 1948, Israeli scientists actively explored the Negev Desert for uranium deposits on orders from the Israeli Ministry of Defense. By 1950, they found low-grade deposits near Beersheba and Sidon and worked on a low power method of heavy water production.[5]

The newly created Weizmann Institute of Science actively supported nuclear research by 1949, with Dr. Bergmann heading the chemistry division. Promising students went overseas to study nuclear engineering and physics at Israeli government expense. Israel secretly founded its own Atomic Energy Commission in 1952 and placed it under the control of the Defense Ministry.[6] The foundations of a nuclear program were beginning to develop.

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation

It has always been our intention to develop a nuclear potential.

- Ephraim Katzir[7]

In 1949, Francis Perrin, a member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, nuclear physicist, and friend of Dr. Bergmann visited the Weizmann Institute. He invited Israeli scientists to the new French nuclear research facility at Saclay. A joint research effort was subsequently set up between the two nations. Perrin publicly stated in 1986 that French scientists working in America on the Manhattan Project and in Canada during World War II were told they could use their knowledge in France provided they kept it a secret.[8] Perrin reportedly provided nuclear data to Israel on the same basis.[9] One Israeli scientist worked at the U.S. Los Alamos National Laboratory and may have directly brought expertise home.[10]

After the Second World War, France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before World War II, but had fallen far behind the U.S., the U.S.S.R., the United Kingdom, and even Canada. Israel and France were at a similar level of expertise after the war, and Israeli scientists could make significant contributions to the French effort. Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties. Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule.[11] France profited from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment.[12] In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, France and Israel had close relations in many areas. France was Israel's principal arms supplier, and as instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, Israel provided valuable intelligence obtained from contacts with sephardic Jews in those countries.

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.[13] Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.[14]

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai. 

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.[15] Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.[16] The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.[17] Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.[18]

Why was France so eager to help Israel? DeMollet and then de Gaulle had a place for Israel within their strategic vision. A nuclear Israel could be a counterforce against Egypt in France's fight in Algeria. Egypt was openly aiding the rebel forces there. France also wanted to obtain the bomb itself. The United States had embargoed certain nuclear enabling computer technology from France. Israel could get the technology from America and pass it through to France. The U.S. furnished Israel heavy water, under the Atoms for Peace program, for the small research reactor at Soreq. France could use this heavy water. Since France was some years away from nuclear testing and success, Israeli science was an insurance policy in case of technical problems in France's own program.[19] The Israeli intelligence community's knowledge of past French (especially Vichy) anti-Semitic transgressions and the continued presence of former Nazi collaborators in French intelligence provided the Israelis with some blackmail opportunities.[20] The cooperation was so close that Israel worked with France on the preproduction design of early Mirage jet aircraft, designed to be capable of delivering nuclear bombs.[21]

French experts secretly built the Israeli reactor underground at Dimona, in the Negev desert of southern Israel near Beersheba. Hundreds of French engineers and technicians filled Beersheba, the biggest town in the Negev. Many of the same contractors who built Marcoule were involved. SON (a French firm) built the plutonium separation plants in both France and Israel. The ground was broken for the EL-102 reactor (as it was known to France) in early 1958. 

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted. On 2 December 1960, before Israel could make announcements, the U.S. State Department issued a statement that Israel had a secret nuclear installation. By 16 December, this became public knowledge with its appearance in the New York Times. On 21 December, Ben-Gurion announced that Israel was building a 24-megawatt reactor for peaceful purposes.[22]

Over the next year, relations between the U.S. and Israel became strained over the Dimona reactor. The U.S. accepted Israel's assertions at face value publicly, but exerted pressure privately. Although Israel allowed a cursory inspection by well known American physicists Eugene Wigner and I. I. Rabi, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion consistently refused to allow regular international inspections. The final resolution between the U.S. and Israel was a commitment from Israel to use the facility for peaceful purposes, and to admit an U.S. inspection team twice a year. These inspections began in 1962 and continued until 1969. Inspectors saw only the above ground part of the buildings, not the many levels underground and the visit frequency was never more than once a year. The above ground areas had simulated control rooms, and access to the underground areas was kept hidden while the inspectors were present. Elevators leading to the secret underground plutonium reprocessing plant were actually bricked over.[23] Much of the information on these inspections and the political maneuvering around it has just been declassified.[24]

One interpretation of Ben-Gurion's peaceful purposes pledge given to America is that he interpreted it to mean that nuclear weapon development was not excluded if used strictly for defensive, and not offensive purposes. Israel's security position in the late fifties and early sixties was far more precarious than now. After three wars, with a robust domestic arms industry and a reliable defense supply line from the U.S., Israel felt much more secure. During the fifties and early sixties a number of attempts by Israel to obtain security guarantees from the U.S. to place Israel under the U.S. nuclear umbrella like NATO or Japan, were unsuccessful. If the U.S. had conducted a forward-looking policy to restrain Israel's proliferation, along with a sure defense agreement, we could have prevented the development of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

One common discussion in the literature concerns testing of Israeli nuclear devices. In the early phases, the amount of collaboration between the French and Israeli nuclear weapons design programs made testing unnecessary. In addition, although their main efforts were with plutonium, the Israelis may have amassed enough uranium for gun-assembled type bombs which, like the Hiroshima bomb, require no testing. One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not onesuch was the depth of collaboration.]25] There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.[26] Israel also supplied essential technology and hardware.[27] The French reportedly shipped reprocessed plutonium back to Israel as part of their repayment for Israeli scientific help.

However, this constant, decade long, French cooperation and support was soon to end and Israel would have to go it alone.

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project to Completion

To act in such a way that the Jews who died in the gas chambers would be the last Jews to die without defending themselves.

- Golda Meir[28 ]

Israel would soon need its own, independent, capabilities to complete its nuclear program. Only five countries had facilities for uranium enrichment: the United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, France, and China. The Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, or NUMEC, in Apollo, Pennsylvania was a small fuel rod fabrication plant. In 1965, the U.S. government accused Dr. Zalman Shapiro, the corporation president, of losing 200 pounds of highly enriched uranium. Although investigated by the Atomic Energy Commission, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other government agencies and inquiring reporters, no answers were available in what was termed the Apollo Affair.[29] Many remain convinced that the Israelis received 200 pounds of enriched uranium sometime before 1965.[30] One source links Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad agent and later the handler of spy Jonathan Pollard, with NUMEC.[31] In the 1990s when the NUMEC plant was disassembled, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission found over 100 kilograms of plutonium in the structural components of the contaminated plant, casting doubt on 200 pounds going to Israel.[32]

The joint venture with France gave Israel several ingredients for nuclear weapons construction: a production reactor, a factory to extract plutonium from the spent fuel, and the design. In 1962, the Dimona reactor went critical; the French resumed work on the underground plutonium reprocessing plant, and completed it in 1964 or 1965. The acquisition of this reactor and related technologies was clearly intended for military purposes from the outset (not dual-use), as the reactor has no other function. The security at Dimona (officially the Negev Nuclear Research Center) was particularly stringent. For straying into Dimona's airspace, the Israelis shot down one of their own Mirage fighters during the Six-Day War. The Israelis also shot down a Libyan airliner with 104 passengers, in 1973, which had strayed over the Sinai.[33] There is little doubt that some time in the late sixties Israel became the sixth nation to manufacture nuclear weapons. Other things they needed were extra uranium and extra heavy water to run the reactor at a higher rate. Norway, France, and the United States provided the heavy water and Operation Plumbat provided the uranium.

After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.[34] Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums Plumbat, which means lead, hence Operation Plumbat.[35] The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.[36] Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.[37]

Norway sold 20 tons of heavy water to Israel in 1959 for use in an experimental power reactor. Norway insisted on the right to inspect the heavy water for 32 years, but did so only once, in April 1961, while it was still in storage barrels at Dimona. Israel simply promised that the heavy water was for peaceful purposes. In addition, quantities much more than what would be required for the peaceful purpose reactors were imported. Norway either colluded or at the least was very slow to ask to inspect as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) rules required.[38] Norway and Israel concluded an agreement in 1990 for Israel to sell back 10.5 tons of the heavy water to Norway. Recent calculations reveal that Israel has used two tons and will retain eight tons more.[39]

Author Seymour Hersh, writing in the Samson Option says Prime Minister Levi Eshkol delayed starting weapons production even after Dimona was finished.[40] The reactor operated and the plutonium collected, but remained unseparated. The first extraction of plutonium probably occurred in late 1965. By 1966, enough plutonium was on hand to develop a weapon in time for the Six-Day War in 1967. Some type of non-nuclear test, perhaps a zero yield or implosion test, occurred on November 2, 1966. After this time, considerable collaboration between Israel and South Africa developed and continued through the 1970s and 1980s. South Africa became Israel's primary supplier of uranium for Dimona. A Center for Nonproliferation Studies report lists four separate Israel-South Africa clandestine nuclear deals. Three concerned yellowcake and one was tritium.[41] Other sources of yellowcake may have included Portugal.[42]

Egypt attempted unsuccessfully to obtain nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union both before and after the Six-Day War. President Nasser received from the Soviet Union a questionable nuclear guarantee instead and declared that Egypt would develop its own nuclear program.[43 ] His rhetoric of 1965 and 1966 about preventive war and Israeli nuclear weapons coupled with overflights of the Dimona rector contributed to the tensions that led to war. The Egyptian Air Force claims to have first overflown Dimona and recognized the existence of a nuclear reactor in 1965.[44 ] Of the 50 American HAWK antiaircraft missiles in Israeli hands, half ringed Dimona by 1965.[45] Israel considered the Egyptian overflights of May 16, 1967 as possible pre-strike reconnaissance. One source lists such Egyptian overflights, along with United Nations peacekeeper withdrawal and Egyptian troop movements into the Sinai, as one of the three tripwires which would drive Israel to war.[46] There was an Egyptian military plan to attack Dimona at the start of any war but Nasser vetoed it.[47] He believed Israel would have the bomb in 1968.[48] Israel assembled two nuclear bombs and ten days later went to war.[49] Nasser's plan, if he had one, may have been to gain and consolidate territorial gains before Israel had a nuclear option.[50] He was two weeks too late.

The Israelis aggressively pursued an aircraft delivery system from the United States. President Johnson was less emphatic about nonproliferation than President Kennedy-or perhaps had more pressing concerns, such as Vietnam. He had a long history of both Jewish friends and pressing political contributors coupled with some first hand experience of the Holocaust, having toured concentration camps at the end of World War II.[51] Israel pressed him hard for aircraft (A-4E Skyhawks initially and F-4E Phantoms later) and obtained agreement in 1966 under the condition that the aircraft would not be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The State Department attempted to link the aircraft purchases to continued inspection visits. President Johnson overruled the State Department concerning Dimona inspections.[52] Although denied at the time, America delivered the F-4Es, on September 5, 1969, with nuclear capable hardware intact.[53]

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968, putting the plutonium separation plant into full operation. Israel began producing three to five bombs a year. The book Critical Mass asserts that Israel had two bombs in 1967, and that Prime Minister Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during the Six-Day War.[54] Avner Cohen in his recent book, Israel and the Bomb, agrees that Israel had a deliverable nuclear capability in the 1967 war. He quotes Munya Mardor, leader of Rafael, the Armament Development Authority, and other unnamed sources, that Israel cobbled together two deliverable devices.[55]

Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the Samson Option of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.[56]

In 1971, Israel began purchasing krytrons, ultra high-speed electronic switching tubes that are dual-use," having both industrial and nuclear weapons applications as detonators. In the 1980s, the United States charged an American, Richard Smith (or Smyth), with smuggling 810 krytrons to Israel.[57] He vanished before trial and reportedly lives outside Tel Aviv. The Israelis apologized for the action saying that the krytrons were for medical research.[58] Israel returned 469 of the krytrons but the rest, they declared, had been destroyed in testing conventional weapons. Some believe they went to South Africa.[59] Smyth has also been reported to have been involved in a 1972 smuggling operation to obtain solid rocket fuel binder compounds for the Jericho II missile and guidance component hardware.[60] Observers point to the Jericho missile itself as proof of a nuclear capability as it is not suited to the delivery of conventional munitions.[61]

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that this is the end of the third temple, referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. Temple was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her kitchen cabinet made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.[62]

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October. The U.S. decided to open an aerial resupply pipeline to Israel, and Israeli aircraft began picking up supplies that day. Although stockpile depletion remained a concern, the military situation stabilized on October 8th and 9th as Israeli reserves poured into the battle and averted disaster. Well before significant American resupply had reached Israeli forces, the Israelis counterattacked and turned the tide on both fronts. 

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.[63] Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.[64]

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.[65] There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to going nuclear.[66]

A similar Soviet pipeline to the Arabs, equally robust, may or may not have included a ship with nuclear weapons on it, detected from nuclear trace emissions and shadowed by the Americans from the Dardanelles. The Israelis believe that the Soviets discovered Israeli nuclear preparations from COSMOS satellite photographs and decided to equalize the odds.[67] The Soviet ship arrived in Alexandria on either 18 or 23 October (sources disagree), and remained, without unloading, until November 1973. The ship may have represented a Soviet guarantee to the Arab combatants to neutralize the Israeli nuclear option.[68] While some others dismiss the story completely, the best-written review article concludes that the answer is obscure. Soviet premier Leonid Brezhnev threatened, on 24 October, to airlift Soviet airborne troops to reinforce the Egyptians cut off on the eastern side of the Suez Canal and put seven Soviet airborne divisions on alert.[69] Recent evidence indicates that the Soviets sent nuclear missile submarines also.[70] Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine claimed that the two Soviet SCUD brigades deployed in Egypt each had a nuclear warhead. American satellite photos seemed to confirm this. The U.S. passed to Israel images of trucks, of the type used to transport nuclear warheads, parked near the launchers.[71] President Nixon's response was to bring the U.S. to worldwide nuclear alert the next day, whereupon Israel went to nuclear alert a third time.[72] This sudden crisis quickly faded as Prime Minister Meir agreed to a cease-fire, relieving the pressure on the Egyptian Third Army.

Shimon Peres had argued for a pre-war nuclear demonstration to deter the Arabs. Arab strategies and war aims in 1967 may have been restricted because of a fear of the Israeli bomb in the basement, the undeclared nuclear option. The Egyptians planned to capture an eastern strip next to the Suez Canal and then hold. The Syrians did not aggressively commit more forces to battle or attempt to drive through the 1948 Jordan River border to the Israeli center. Both countries seemed not to violate Israel proper and avoided triggering one of the unstated Israeli reasons to employ nuclear weapons.[73] Others discount any Arab planning based on nuclear capabilities.[74] Peres also credits Dimona with bringing Anwar Sadat to Jerusalem to make peace.[75] This position was seemingly confirmed by Sadat in a private conversation with Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman.[76]

At the end of the Yom Kippur War (a nation shaking experience), Israel has her nuclear arsenal fully functional and tested by a deployment. The arsenal, still opaque and unspoken, was no longer a secret, especially to the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb up the Basement Stairs

Never Again!

- Reportedly welded on the
first Israeli nuclear bomb[77] 

Shortly after the 1973 war, Israel allegedly fielded considerable nuclear artillery consisting of American 175 mm and 203 mm self-propelled artillery pieces, capable of firing nuclear shells. If true, this shows that Dimona had rapidly solved the problems of designing smaller weapons since the crude 1967 devices. If true, these low yield, tactical nuclear artillery rounds could reach at least 25 miles. The Israeli Defense Force did have three battalions of the 175mm artillery (36 tubes), reportedly with 108 nuclear shells and more for the 203mm tubes. Some sources describe a program to extend the range to 45 miles. They may have offered the South Africans these low yield, miniaturized, shells described as, the best stuff we got.[78] By 1976, according to one unclassified source, the Central Intelligence Agency believed that the Israelis were using plutonium from Dimona and had 10 to 20 nuclear weapons available.[79]

In 1972, two Israeli scientists, Isaiah Nebenzahl and Menacehm Levin, developed a cheaper, faster uranium enrichment process. It used a laser beam for isotope separation. It could reportedly enrich seven grams of Uranium 235 sixty percent in one day.[80] Sources later reported that Israel was using both centrifuges and lasers to enrich uranium.[81]

Questions remained regarding full-scale nuclear weapons tests. Primitive gun assembled type devices need no testing. Researchers can test non-nuclear components of other types separately and use extensive computer simulations. Israel received data from the 1960 French tests, and one source concludes that Israel accessed information from U.S. tests conducted in the 1950s and early 1960s. This may have included both boosted and thermonuclear weapons data.[82] Underground testing in a hollowed out cavern is difficult to detect. A West Germany Army Magazine, Wehrtechnik, in June 1976, claimed that Western reports documented a 1963 underground test in the Negev. Other reports show a test at Al-Naqab, Negev in October 1966.[83]

A bright flash in the south Indian Ocean, observed by an American satellite on 22 September 1979, is widely believed to be a South Africa-Israel joint nuclear test. It was, according to some, the third test of a neutron bomb. The first two were hidden in clouds to fool the satellite and the third was an accidentthe weather cleared.[84] Experts differ on these possible tests. Several writers report that the scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory believed it to have been a nuclear explosion while a presidential panel decided otherwise.[85] President Carter was just entering the Iran hostage nightmare and may have easily decided not to alter 30 years of looking the other way.[86] The explosion was almost certainly an Israeli bomb, tested at the invitation of the South Africans. It was more advanced than the gun type bombs developed by the South Africans.[87] One report claims it was a test of a nuclear artillery shell.[88] A 1997 Israeli newspaper quoted South African deputy foreign minister, Aziz Pahad, as confirming it was an Israeli test with South African logistical support.[89]

Controversy over possible nuclear testing continues to this day. In June 1998, a Member of the Knesset accused the government of an underground test near Eilat on May 28, 1998. Egyptian nuclear experts had made similar charges. The Israeli government hotly denied the claims.[90]

Not only were the Israelis interested in American nuclear weapons development data, they were interested in targeting data from U.S. intelligence. Israel discovered that they were on the Soviet target list. American-born Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard obtained satellite-imaging data of the Soviet Union, allowing Israel to target accurately Soviet cities. This showed Israel's intention to use its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent political lever, or retaliatory capability against the Soviet Union itself. Israel also used American satellite imagery to plan the 7 June 1981 attack on the Tammuz-1 reactor at Osiraq, Iraq. This daring attack, carried out by eight F-16s accompanied by six F-15s punched a hole in the concrete reactor dome before the reactor began operation (and just days before an Israeli election). It delivered 15 delay-fused 2000 pound bombs deep into the reactor structure (the 16th bomb hit a nearby hall). The blasts shredded the reactor and blew out the dome foundations, causing it to collapse on the rubble. This was the world's first attack on a nuclear reactor.[91]

Since 19 September 1988, Israel has worked on its own satellite recon- naissance system to decrease reliance on U.S. sources. On that day, they launched the Offeq-1 satellite on the Shavit booster, a system closely related to the Jericho-II missile. They launched the satellite to the west away from the Arabs and against the earth's rotation, requiring even more thrust. The Jericho-II missile is capable of sending a one ton nuclear payload 5,000 kilometers. Offeq-2 went up on 3 April 1990. The launch of the Offeq-3 failed on its first attempt on 15 September 1994, but was successful 5 April 1995.[92]

Mordechai Vanunu provided the best look at the Israeli nuclear arsenal in 1985 complete with photographs.[93] A technician from Dimona who lost his job, Vanunu secretly took photographs, immigrated to Australia and published some of his material in the London Sunday Times. He was subsequently kidnapped by Israeli agents, tried and imprisoned. His data shows a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.[94] The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs show a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing.[95] He revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium. These facts have increased the estimates of total Israeli nuclear stockpiles (see Appendix A).[96] In the words of one American, [the Israelis] can do anything we or the Soviets can do.[97] Vanunu not only made the technical details of the Israeli program and stockpile public but in his wake, Israeli began veiled official acknowledgement of the potent Israeli nuclear deterrent. They began bringing the bomb up the basement stairs if not out of the basement.

Israel went on full-scale nuclear alert again on the first day of Desert Storm, 18 January 1991. Seven SCUD missiles were fired against the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa by Iraq (only two actually hit Tel Aviv and one hit Haifa). This alert lasted for the duration of the war, 43 days. Over the course of the war, Iraq launched around 40 missiles in 17 separate attacks at Israel. There was little loss of life: two killed directly, 11 indirectly, with many structures damaged and life disrupted.[98] Several supposedly landed near Dimona, one of them a close miss.[99] Threats of retaliation by the Shamir government if the Iraqis used chemical warheads were interpreted to mean that Israel intended to launch a nuclear strike if gas attacks occurred. One Israeli commentator recommended that Israel should signal Iraq that any Iraqi action against Israeli civilian populations, with or without gas, may leave Iraq without Baghdad.[100] Shortly before the end of the war the Israelis tested a nuclear capable missile which prompted the United States into intensifying its SCUD hunting in western Iraq to prevent any Israeli response.[101] The Israeli Air Force set up dummy SCUD sites in the Negev for pilots to practice onthey found it no easy task.[102] American government concessions to Israel for not attacking (in addition to Israeli Patriot missile batteries) were:

Allowing Israel to designate 100 targets inside Iraq for the coalition to destroy,
Satellite downlink to increase warning time on the SCUD attacks (present and future),
Technical parity with Saudi jet fighters in perpetuity.[103]

All of this validated the nuclear arsenal in the minds of the Israelis. In particular the confirmed capability of Arab states without a border with Israel, the so-called second tier states, to reach out and touch Israel with ballistic missiles confirmed Israel's need for a robust first strike capability.][104] Current military contacts between Israel and India, another nuclear power, bring up questions of nuclear cooperation.[105] Pakistani sources have already voiced concerns over a possible joint Israeli-Indian attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities.[106] A recent Parameters article speculated on Israel's willingness to furnish nuclear capabilities or assistance to certain states, such as Turkey.[107] A retired Israeli Defense Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Amnon Shahak, has declared, all methods are acceptable in withholding nuclear capabilities from an Arab state.[108]

As the Israeli bomb comes out of the basement, open discussion, even in Israel, is occurring on why the Israelis feel they need an arsenal not used in at least two if not three wars. Avner Cohen states: It [Israel] must be in a position to threaten another Hiroshima to prevent another holocaust.[109] In July 1998 Shimon Peres was quoted in the Jordan Times as saying, We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo,[110] referring to the peace process.

One list of current reasons for an Israeli nuclear capability is:

To deter a large conventional attack,
To deter all levels of unconventional (chemical, biological, nuclear) attacks,
To preempt enemy nuclear attacks,
To support conventional preemption against enemy nuclear assets,
To support conventional preemption against enemy non-nuclear (conventional, chemical, biological) assets,
For nuclear warfighting,
The Samson Option (last resort destruction).[111]

The most alarming of these is the nuclear warfighting. The Israelis have developed, by several accounts, low yield neutron bombs able to destroy troops with minimal damage to property.[112] In 1990, during the Second Gulf War, an Israeli reserve major general recommended to America that it use non-contaminating tactical nuclear weapons against Iraq.[113] Some have speculated that the Israelis will update their nuclear arsenal to micronukes and tinynukes which would be very useful to attack point targets and other tactical or barrier (mining) uses.[114] These would be very useful for hardened deeply buried command and control facilities and for airfield destruction without exposing Israeli pilots to combat.[115] Authors have made the point that Israeli professional military schools do not teach nuclear tactics and would not use them in the close quarters of Israel. Many Israeli officers have attended American military schools where they learned tactical use in crowded Europe.[116]

However, Jane's Intelligence Review has recently reported an Israeli review of nuclear strategy with a shift from tactical nuclear warheads to long range missiles.[117] Israel always has favored the long reach, whether to Argentina for Adolph Eichmann, to Iraq to strike a reactor, Entebbe for hostages, Tunisia to hit the PLO, or by targeting the Soviet Union's cities. An esteemed Israeli military author has speculated that Israel is pursuing an R&D program to provide MIRVs (multiple independent reentry vehicles) on their missiles.[118]

The government of Israel recently ordered three German Dolphin Class 800 submarine, to be delivered in late 1999. Israel will then have a second strike capability with nuclear cruise missiles, and this capability could well change the nuclear arms race in the Middle East.[119] Israeli rhetoric on the new submarines labels them national deterrent assets. Projected capabilities include a submarine-launched nuclear missile with a 350-kilometer range.[120] Israel has been working on sea launch capability for missiles since the 1960s.[121] The first basing options for the new second-strike force of nuclear missile capable submarines include Oman, an Arab nation with unofficial Israeli relations, located strategically near Iran.[122] A report indicates that the Israel Defense Ministry has formally gone to the government with a request to authorize a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was hit with first strike nuclear weapons. This report comes in the wake of a recent Iran Shihab-3 missile test and indications to Israel that Iran is two to three years from a nuclear warhead.[123] Israeli statements stress that Iran's nuclear potential would be problem to all and would require American leadership, with serious participation of the G-7 . . . .[124]

A recent study highlighted Israel's extreme vulnerability to a first strike and an accompanying vulnerability even to a false alarm.[125] Syria's entire defense against Israel seems to rest on chemical weapons and warheads.[126] One scenario involves Syria making a quick incursion into the Golan and then threatening chemical strikes, perhaps with a new, more lethal (protective-mask-penetrable) Russian nerve gas if Israel resists.[127] Their use would drive Israel to nuclear use. Israeli development of an anti- missile defense, the Arrow, a fully fielded (30-50[128]) Jericho II ballistic missile, and the soon-to-arrive strategic submarine force, seems to have produced a coming change in defense force structure. The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, quotes the Israeli Chief of Staff discussing the establishment of a strategic command to . . . prepare an adequate response to the long term threats. . . [129]

The 1994 accord with Jordan, allowing limited Israeli military presence in Jordanian skies, could make the flying distance to several potential adversaries considerably shorter.[130] Israel is concerned about Iran's desire to obtain nuclear weapons and become a regional leader, coupled with large numbers of Shiite ******* in southern Lebanon. The Israeli Air Force commanding general issued a statement saying Israel would consider an attack if any country gets close to achieving a nuclear capability.[131] The Israelis are obviously considering actions capable of stopping such programs and are buying aircraft such as the F-15I with sufficient operational range. At the first delivery of these 4,000 kilometer range fighters, the Israeli comment was, the aircraft would help counter a growing nuclear threat.[132] They consider such regional nation nuclear programs to be a sufficient cause for war. Their record of accomplishment is clear: having hit the early Iraqi nuclear effort, they feel vindicated by Desert Storm. They also feel that only the American and Israeli nuclear weapons kept Iraq's Saddam Hussein from using chemical or biological weapons against Israel.[133]

Israel, like Iran, has desires of regional power. The 1956 alliance with France and Britain might have been a first attempt at regional hegemony. Current debate in the Israeli press considers offering Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and perhaps Syria (after a peace agreement) an Israeli nuclear umbrella of protection.[134] A nuclear Iran or Iraq might use its nuclear weapons to protect some states in the region, threaten others, and attempt to control oil prices.[135]

Another speculative area concerns Israeli nuclear security and possible misuse. What is the chain of decision and control of Israel's weapons? How susceptible are they to misuse or theft? With no open, frank, public debate on nuclear issues, there has accordingly been no debate or information on existing safeguards. This has led to accusations of monolithic views and sinister intentions.[1360] Would a right wing military government decide to employ nuclear weapons recklessly? Ariel Sharon, an outspoken proponent of Greater Israel was quoted as saying, Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.[137] Could the Gush Emunim, a right wing religious organization, or others, hijack a nuclear device to liberate the Temple Mount for the building of the third temple? Chances are small but could increase as radicals decry the peace process.[138] A 1997 article reviewing the Israeli Defense Force repeatedly stressed the possibilities of, and the need to guard against, a religious, right wing military coup, especially as the proportion of religious in the military increases.[139 ]

Israel is a nation with a state religion, but its top leaders are not religious Jews. The intricacies of Jewish religious politics and rabbinical law do affect their politics and decision processes. In Jewish law, there are two types of war, one obligatory and mandatory (milkhemet mitzvah) and the one authorized but optional (milkhemet reshut).[140] The labeling of Prime Minister Begin's Peace for Galilee operation as a milchemet brera (war of choice) was one of the factors causing it to lose support.[141] Interpretation of Jewish law concerning nuclear weapons does not permit their use for mutual assured destruction. However, it does allow possession and threatening their use, even if actual use is not justifiable under the law. Interpretations of the law allow tactical use on the battlefield, but only after warning the enemy and attempting to make peace. How much these intricacies affect Israeli nuclear strategy decisions is unknown.[142]

The secret nature of the Israeli nuclear program has hidden the increasing problems of the aging Dimona reactor and adverse worker health effects. Information is only now public as former workers sue the government. This issue is now linked to continued tritium production for the boosted anti-tank and anti-missile nuclear warheads that Israeli continues to need. Israel is attempting to obtain a new, more efficient, tritium production technology developed in India.[143]

One other purpose of Israeli nuclear weapons, not often stated, but obvious, is their use on the United States. America does not want Israel's nuclear profile raised.[144] They have been used in the past to ensure America does not desert Israel under increased Arab, or oil embargo, pressure and have forced the United States to support Israeli diplomatically against the Soviet Union. Israel used their existence to guarantee a continuing supply of American conventional weapons, a policy likely to continue.[145]

Regardless of the true types and numbers (see Appendix A) of Israeli nuclear weapons, they have developed a sophisticated system, by myriad methods, and are a nuclear power to be reckoned with. Their nuclear ambiguity has served their purposes well but Israel is entering a different phase of visibility even as their nuclear capability is entering a new phase. This new visibility may not be in America's interest.[146] Many are predicting the Israeli nuclear arsenal will become less useful out of the basement and possibly spur a regional arms race. If so, Israel has a 5-10 year lead time at present before mutual assured destruction, Middle East style, will set in. Would regional mutual second strike capability, easier to acquire than superpower mutual second strike capability, result in regional stability? Some think so.[147] Current Israeli President Ezer Weizman has stated the nuclear issue is gaining momentum [and the] next war will not be conventional.[148]

Appendix A

Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal



Notes

1. Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy (New York: Random House, 1991), 223.

2. Aronson, Slomo and Brosh, Oded, The Politics and Strategy of Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East, the Opacity Theory, and Reality, 1960-1991-An Israeli Perspective (Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 1992), 20.

3. Karsh, Efraim, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 82.

4. Cohen, Avner, Israel and the Bomb (New York: Columbia University Press, 1998), 16.

5. Cordesman, Anthony, Perilous Prospects: The Peace Process and the Arab-Israeli Military Balance (Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1996), 118.

6. Pry, Peter, Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (Boulder, Colorado: Westview, 1984), 5-6.

7. Quoted in Weissman, Steve and Krosney, Herbert. The Islamic Bomb: The Nuclear Threat to Israel and the Middle East. (New York, New York: Times Books, 1981), 105.

8. Former Official Says France Helped Build Israel's Dimona Complex. Nucleonics Week October 16, 1986, 6.

9. Milhollin, Gary, Heavy Water Cheaters. Foreign Policy (1987-88): 101-102.

10. Cordesman, 1991, 127.

11. Federation of American Scientists, Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program. 10 December 1997, n.p. On-line. Internet, 27 October 1998. Available from http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Israel/Isrhist.html.

12. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in Israel (New Delhi: S. B. Nangia Books, 1996), 3.

13. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 48-49.

14. Bennett, Jeremy, The Suez Crisis. BBC Video. n.d. Videocassette and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi. Every Spy a Prince. The Complete History of Israel's Intelligence Community. (Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990), 63-69.

15. Weissman and Krosney, 112.

16. Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (London) Sunday Times No. 8,461, 5 October 1986, 1, 4-5.

17. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 57-59.

18. Peres, Shimon, Battling for Peace. A Memoir (New York, New York: Random House, 1995), 122.

19. Pry, 10.

20. Loftus, John and Aarons, Mark, The Secret War Against the Jews. How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People (New York, New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1994), 287-303.

21. Green, Stephen, Taking Sides. America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1984), 152.

22. Cohen, Avner, Most Favored Nation. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 51, no. 1 (January-February 1995): 44-53. 

23. Hersh, The Samson Option, 196.

24. See Cohen, Avner, Israel's Nuclear History: The Untold Kennedy-Eshkol Dimona Correspondence. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 159-194 and Cohen, Avner, Comp. Recently Declassified 1963 Correspondence between President Kennedy and Prime Ministers Ben-Gurion and Eshkol. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 195-207. Much of the documentation has been posted to http:\\www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/israel.

25. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit.,114-117

26. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 82-83.

27. Spector, Leonard S., The Undeclared Bomb (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Ballinger Publishers, 1988), 387 (n.22).

28. Quoted in Stevens, Elizabeth. Israel's Nuclear WeaponsA Case Study. 14 pages. On line. Internet, 23 October 1998. Available from
http://infomanage.com/nonproliferation/najournal/israelinucs.html.

29. Green, Taking Sides, 148-179 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 197-198.

30. Weissman and Krosney, 119-124.

31. Black, Ian and Morris, Benny, Israel's Secret Wars. A history of Israel's Intelligence Services (New York, New York: Grove Weidenfeld, 1991), 418-419.

32. Hersh, 257.

33. Green, Stephen, Living by the Sword: America and Israel in the Middle East, 1968-1987 (London: Faber, 1988), 63-80.

34. Cordesman, 1991, 120.

35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.

38. Milhollin, 100-119.

39. Stanghelle, Harold, Israel to sell back 10.5 tons. Arbeiderbladet, Oslo, Norway, 28 June 1990 in: Center for Nonproliferation Studies, Nuclear Developments, 28 June 1990, 34-35; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

40. Hersh, op. cit., 139.

41. Center for Nonproliferation Studies. Israeli Friends, ISIS Report, May 1994, 4; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

42. Abecasis, Rachel, Uranium reportedly offered to China, Israel. Radio Renascenca, Lisbon, 9 December 1992 quoted in Center for Nonproliferation, Proliferation Issues, 23 December, 1992, 25; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

43. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 231-232 and 256-257.

44. Nordeen, Lon O., Nicolle, David, Phoenix over the Nile (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institute Press, 1996), 192-193.

45. O'Balance, Edgar, The Third Arab-Israeli War (London: Faber and Faber, 1972), 54.

46. Brecher, Michael, Decision in Crisis. Israel, 1967 and 1973 (Berkley, California: University of California Press, 1980), 104, 230-231.

47. Cohen, Avner. Cairo, Dimona, and the June 1967 War. Middle East Journal 50, no. 2 (Spring 1996), 190-210.

48. Creveld, Martin van. The Sword and the Olive. A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force (New York, New York: Public Affairs, 1998), 174.

49. Burrows, William E. and Windrem, Robert, Critical Mass. The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1994), 282-283.

50. Aronson, Shlomo, Israel's Nuclear Options, ACIS Working Paper No. 7. Los Angeles, California: University of California Center for Arms Control and International Security, 1977, 3, and Sorenson, David S., Middle East Regional Studies-AY99, Air War College: Maxwell Air Force Base, AL, 542.

51. Hersh, op. cit., 126-128.

52. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 210-213.

53. Spector, Leonard S., Foreign-Supplied Combat Aircraft: Will They Drop the Third World Bomb? Journal of International Affairs 40, no. 1(1986): 145 (n. 5) and Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 18-19.

54. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280.

55. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 237.

56. Ibid., 273-274.

57. Milhollin, op. cit., 103-104.

58. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, Friend in Deed: Inside the U.S.-Israel Alliance (New York New York: Hyperion, 1994), 299.

59. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 464-465 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 304-305.

60. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 179.

61. Dowty, Alan. Israel and Nuclear Weapons. Midstream 22, no. 7 (November 1976), 8-9.

62. Hersh, op. cit., 217, 222-226, and Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

63. Green, op. cit., Living by the Sword, 90-99.

64. Loftus and Aarons, op. cit., 316-317.

65 Smith, Gerard C. and Cobban, Helena. A Blind Eye To Nuclear Proliferation. Foreign Affairs 68, no. 3(1989), 53-70.

66. Hersh, op. cit., 230-231.

67. O'Balance, Edgar, No Victor, No Vanquished. The Yom Kippur War (San Rafael, California: Presido Press, 1978), 175.

68. Ibid., 234-235 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 15-18. 

69. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 396 (n. 62); Garthoff, Raymond L., D&#65533;tente and Confrontation: American-Soviet Relations from Nixon to Reagan (Washington, DC: The Brookings Institute, 1994), 426, n76 and Bandmann, Yona and Cordova, Yishai. The Soviet Nuclear Threat Towards the Close of the Yom Kippur War. Jerusalem Journal of International Relations 1980 5, no. 1, 107-9.

70. Cherkashin, Nikolai, On Moscow's Orders. Russian Life, 39, no. 10 (October 1996), 13-15.

71. Brownlow, Cecil. Soviets poise three-front global drive. Nuclear weapons in Egypt, artillery buildup at Guantanamo, Communist concentrations in Vietnam aimed at political gains. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 12-14; Holt, Robert. Soviet Power Play. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 7 and Gur-Arieh, Danny, A non-Conventional Look at Israel During '73 War. IsraelWire Tuesday, October 6, 1998 17, 23; on-line, Internet 20 November 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

72. Hersh, op. cit., 321-235.

73. Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 220-221.

74. Evron, Yair, Israel's Nuclear Dilemma (Ithaca, New York: Cornell Publishing, 1994), 62-74.

75. Cohen, Avner, Peres: Peacemaker, Nuclear Pioneer. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 52, no. 3 (May/June 1996), 16-17 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 11-12.

76. Karsh, op. cit., 86.

77. Quoted in Hersh, op. cit., 180 and Stevens, op. cit., 1-14.

78. Hersh, op. cit., 216, 276 and Kaku, Michio. Contingency Plans: Nuclear Weapons after the Cold War. In Altered States: A Reader in the New World Order, Bennis, Phyllis and Moushabeck, Michel, Eds. (New York, New York: 1993), 66.

79. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

80. Gillette, Robert, Uranium Enrichment: Rumors of Israeli Progress with Lasers. Science 183, no. 4130 (22 March 1974), 1172-1174.

81. Barnaby, Frank, The Invisible Bomb: The Nuclear Arms Race in the Middle East (London: I. B. Tauris, 1988), 25.

82. Israel: The Covert Connection. Frontline, PBS Network, May 16, 1989, quoted in Spector, Leonard S., and McDonough, Mark G., with Medeiros, Evan S., Tracking Nuclear Proliferation. A Guide in Maps and Charts, 1995 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1995).

83. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East: Dimensions and Responsibilities (Princeton, New Jersey: Kingston Press, 1984), 22-23.

84. Hersh, op. cit., 216.

85. Barnaby, Frank, Capping Israel's Nuclear Volcano, Between War and Peace. Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Karsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 98.

86. Hersh, op. cit., 271-275.

87. Nashif, op. cit., 32.

88. Gaffney, Mark, Dimona: The Third Temple? The Story Behind the Vanunu Revelation (Brattleboro, Vermont: Amana Books, 1989), 100-101.

89. Pedatzur, Re'uven, South African Statement On Nuclear Test Said to Serve Israel, Ha'aretz, 29 July 1997. On line: Internet, 22 November 1998 and Kelley, Robert. The Iraqi and South African Nuclear W&#65533;Nuclear Abstracts," 1 March 1996, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, both available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

90. Was there a Nuclear Test near Eilat? IsraelWire, 16 June 1998, or on line Internet, 22 November, 1998, available from israelwire.com and Deputy Defense Minister Denies Israeli Nuclear Testing. Israeli Wire, June 18, 1998, or on-line. Internet, 13 October 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

91. McKinnon, Dan. Bullseye One Reactor. The Story of Israel's Bold Surprise Air Attack That Destroyed Iraqi's Nuclear Bomb Facility (Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing Ltd., 1987).

92. Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, Report on the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Moscow, 1993. Journal of Palestine Studies XXII, no. 4 (Summer 1993): 135-140; Creveld, Martin van, Nuclear Proliferation and the Future Of Conflict (New York: The Free Press, 1993), 105; and Clark, Philip. &#65533;Third successful Israeli satellite launch. Jane's Intelligence Review 7, no. 6 (June 1995), 25-26.

93. Sunday Times, London, op. cit., 1,4-5.

94. Toscano, Louis, Triple Cross: Israel, the Atomic Bomb and the Man Who Spilled the Secrets (New York: Carol Publishing Group, 1990).

95. Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 134.

96. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 165-166.

97. Hersh, op. cit., 291.

98. Levran, Aharon, Israeli Strategy after Desert Storm: Lessons from the Second Gulf War (London: Frank Cass, 1997), 1-10.

99. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 278.

100. Cohen, Avner and Miller, Marvin, Nuclear Shadows in the Middle East: Prospects for Arms Control in the Wake of the Gulf Crisis (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1990), 10.

101. Aronson and Brosh, op. cit., 276.

102. Raviv and Melman, op. cit., 399.

103. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 297n and Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 321-322.

104. Levran, op. cit., 8-10.

105. Ahmar, Moonis, Pakistan and Israel: Distant Adversaries or Neighbors? Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, 1996, 20, no.1, 43-44.

106. Nuclear proliferation didn't start in 1998 . . .and not in Pakistan nor with Islam, Middle East Realities, or on-line, Internet, 21 September 1998, available from http://www.middleeast.org/1998_06_28.htm.

107. Garrity, Patrick J. The Next Nuclear Questions. Parameters, XXV, no. 4 (Winter 1995-96), 92-111.

108. Cohen, Eliezer. Israel's best defense: the First Full Story of the Israeli Air Force, (New York, New York: Random House, 1993), 495.

109. Cohen and Miller, op. cit., 18.

110. Before Meeting with King, Peres Claims Israel's Nuclear Arsenal was built for Peace, Jordan Times, July 14, 1998. Quoted in Sorenson, op. cit., 542.

111. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's Bomb in the Basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure', Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Harsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 113-133.

112. Hersh, op. cit., 319.

113. Amos, Deborah, Lines in the Sand: Desert Storm and the Remaking of the Arab World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), 105.

114. Dowler, Thomas W. and Howard II, Joseph H., Countering the threat of the well-armed tyrant: A modest proposal for small nuclear weapons, Strategic Review, XIX, no. 4 (Fall 1991), 34-40.

115. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's bomb in the basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure.'  In Karsh, Efraim, op. cit., Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 116.

116. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 265.

117. Hough, Harold, Israel reviews its nuclear deterrent, Jane's Intelligence Review 10, no.11 (November 1998), 11-13.

118. Creveld, op. cit., 1993, 105.

119. Burrows, and Windrem, op. cit., 311-312 and Israel begins test of nuclear missile submarines, The Irish Times, July 2, 1998, or on-line, Internet, 24 December 1998, available from http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/0702/wor13.html.

120. Melman, Yossi, Swimming with the Dolphins, Ha'aretz, Tuesday, June 9, 1998, and Report: Israel to get Subs with Nuclear Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, I July 3, 1998, 3 and Sorenson, op. cit., 543.

121. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 344-345, 422-423.

122. Shahak, Israel, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (London: Pluto Press, 1997), 72-73.

123. Davis, Douglas, Defense Officials Said Urging Nuclear Second-Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, 6 August 1998, 3; or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

124. Inbar, Efraim, Israel's security in a new international environment, in Karsh, Efraim, Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 41.

125. Hough, Harold, Could Israel's Nuclear Assets Survive a First Strike? Jane's Intelligence Review, September 1997, 407-410.

126. Terrill, W. Andrew, The Chemical Warfare Legacy of the Yemen War. Comparative Strategy, 10 (1991), 109-119.

127. Boyne, Sean, Across the Great Divide. Will Assad go for the Golan? Jane's Intelligence Review, 10, no. 4 (April 1998), 21-24 and Cordesman, 1996, op. cit., 254.

128. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 243.

129, Harel, Amos and Barzilai, Amnon, Mordechai says Arrow alone cannot protect against missiles, Ha'aretz, 13 January 1999, or on-line, Internet, 13 January 1999, available from http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/3_9.htm

130. Shahak, op. cit., 78-79.

131. Chubin, Shahram, Does Iran Want Nuclear Weapons? Survival 37, no. 1 (Spring 1995), 91-93.

132. O'Sullivan, Arich, New F-15I Warplanes Expand Israel's Reach, The Jerusalem Post, 19 January 1997, or on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from Israel News | Online Israeli News Covering Israel & The Jewish World - JPost.

133. Karsh, op. cit., 9.

134. Shahak, op. cit., 4-5.

135. Garrity, op. cit., 92-111.

136. Dowty, op. cit., 8.

137. Gaffney, op. cit., 165.

138. Ibid., 37-38 and Friedman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement (New York, New York: Random House, 1992), 132-52.

139. Blanche, Ed, Is the Myth Fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 1. Jane's Intelligence Review, 8, no. 12 (December 1996), 547-550 and Blanche, Ed. Is the myth fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 2, Jane's Intelligence Review 9, no. 1 (January 1997), 25-28.

140. Cohen, Stuart A., The Scroll or the Sword? Dilemmas of Religion and Military Service in Israel (Amsterdam, Netherlands: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1997), 11-24.

141. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 298.

142. Broyde, Michael J., Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition, or on-line, Internet, 20 November 1998, available from Jewish Law - Articles ("Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition").

143. Hough, Harold, op. cit., 1998, 11-12 and Berger, Julian, Court Fury At Israeli Reactor. Guardian, 13 October 1997, in Center for Nonproliferation, Nuclear Abstracts, 13 October 1997, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

144. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 252.

145. Valry, Nicholas, Israel's Silent Gamble with the Bomb, New Scientist (12 December 1974), 807-09.

146. Harden, Major James D., Israeli Nuclear Weapons and War in the Middle East, Master's Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA, December 1997.

147. Dowdy, op. cit., 20.

148. Aronson, Geoffrey, Hidden Agenda: US-Israeli Relations and the Nuclear Question, Middle East Journal, 46, no. 4 (Autumn 1992), 619-630.

149. Data from Time, 12 April 1976, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

150. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280 and Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 273-274.

151. Tahtinen, Dale R., The Arab-Israel Military Balance Today (Washington, DC: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, 1973), 34.

152. How Israel Got the Bomb. Time, 12 April 1976, 39.

153. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 302.

154. Kaku, op. cit., 66 and Hersh, op. cit., 216.

155. Val&#65533;ry, op. cit., 807-09.

156. Data from CIA, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

157. Ottenberg, Michael, Estimating Israel's Nuclear Capabilities, Command, 30 (October 1994), 6-8. 

158. Pry, op. cit., 75.

159. Ibid., 111.

160. Data from NBC Nightly News, quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104 and Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

161. Data from Vanunu quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104.

162. Harkavy, Robert E. After the Gulf War: The Future of the Israeli Nuclear Strategy, The Washington Quarterly (Summer 1991), 164.

163. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

164. Albright, David, Berkhout, Frans and Walker, William, Plutonium and Highly Enriched Uranium 1996. World Inventories, Capabilities, and Policies (New York: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute And Oxford University Press, 1997), 262-263.

165. Hough, Harold, Israel's Nuclear Infrastructure, Jane's Intelligence Review 6, no. 11 (November 1994), 508.

166. Ibid., 262-263.

167. Spector, and McDonough, with Medeiros, op. cit., 135.

168. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 283-284.

169. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 234.

170. Ibid., 234.

171. Ibid., 230, 243.

172. Brower, Kenneth S., A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East, Jane's Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.

173. Albright, Berkhout, and Walker, op. cit., 262-263.

USAF Counterproliferation Center

The USAF Counterproliferation Center was established in 1998 to provide education and research to the present and future leaders of the USAF, and thereby help them better prepare to counter the threat from weapons of mass destruction.

Barry R. Schneider, Director
USAF Counterproliferation Center
325 Chennault Circle
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427k

(334) 953-7538 (DSN (493-7538)

Email: Barry.Schneider@maxwell,af.mil



Israel's Nuclear Weapons


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## chuanw3c.com

Vi&#7879;t Nam  Pakistan: Kim ng&#7841;ch th&#432;&#417;ng m&#7841;i t&#259;ng &#273;&#7873;u qua các n&#259;m


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## Mootaz-khelifi

how they going to deal with Israel nukes when usa is controlled by Jew lobby and usa control IAEA that concludes that jew control IAEA


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## itaskol

saudis maybe also already have nukes. the missile deal in 1988 between china and saudis was over 3 billion dollars for some DF3.
and at that time DF3 in china had 2 million tons hydrogen warhead. 
the 3 billion dollars were the same level as our total foreign-exchange reserves in 1988.


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## Ajaxpaul

IAEA has only one function- to spy on other country's nuclear capabilities. They wanted to " *inspect* " our Fast breeder reactor but was firmly denied. 

Make some dummy reactors and let them inspect it.


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## twilight

Solomon2 said:


> We are "The *Great* Satan". Sounds most important, doesn't it?



you should be thankful that we didn't calling you " the Greatest Satan " ..... my dear Zionist enemy .... 

unfortunately , a barbaric country with a savage army used nuke for first time in history and killed ordinary peoples and now that barbaric country made a puppet organization with "IAEA" name , so why some people think the "Great Satan " should become worry about another Satan having nuke !? 
after all these evil countries are in same side ....


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## ebr77

I thought IAEA is run by Israel right??? So how come they will inspect themselves. I mean../////........


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## nirreich

yasinbin said:


> I thought IAEA is run by Israel right??? So how come they will inspect themselves. I mean../////........



IAEA always asks to inspect Israel, but Israel refuses since it has not signed the NPT, like Iran...

All this nonsense about Israel controlling the IAEA, UN, America and half of the world will lead you nowhere.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> IAEA always asks to inspect Israel, but Israel refuses since it has not signed the NPT, like Iran...
> 
> All this nonsense about Israel controlling the IAEA, UN, America and half of the world will lead you nowhere.


*
If it is not leading us anywhere why is a zionazi so worried?*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> If it is not leading us anywhere why is a zionazi so worried?*



I am worried of anti-Smites like you, not from the IAEA.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I am worried of anti-Smites like you, not from the IAEA.



*We don't worry about paid zionazis like you, we worry about the zionazi terrorists with WMDs. They are a threat to world peace.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *We don't worry about paid zionazis like you, we worry about the zionazi terrorists with WMDs. They are a threat to world peace.*



We have been on the top of this issue before and we all came to the conclusion that you are having hallucinations and you generally do not know anything on the subject.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> We have been on the top of this issue before and we all came to the conclusion that you are having hallucinations and you generally do not know anything on the subject.


*
And it is clear like daylight that you don't have the brain to comprehend that a zionazi can't hide the threat posed by the israeli nukes.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> And it is clear like daylight that you don't have the brain to comprehend that a zionazi can't hide the threat posed by the israeli nukes.*



And it is clear from your replies that your anti-Semitism can only compete with your ignorance.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> And it is clear from your replies that your anti-Semitism can only compete with your ignorance.



*Your satanic arrogance and fondness for lies and deceit makes you think that we're ignorant, after all, we can see what an ugly creature a zionazi is.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mosu

if israel never threatend to any country than why israel's f-16 jets flying near pakistans border in indian territory??? and who help 
sadam hussain in the war aganist iran????


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Your satanic arrogance and fondness for lies and deceit makes you think that we're ignorant, after all, we can see what an ugly creature a zionazi is.*



Your anti-Semitism blinds you to anything which is even resemblance to the truth, and your aggressive responses are a ridiculous attempt to cover your ignorance.



laghari said:


> if israel never threatend to any country than why israel's f-16 jets flying near pakistans border in indian territory??? and who help
> sadam hussain in the war aganist iran????



And of course you have solid proofs for your claims...


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Your anti-Semitism blinds you to anything which is even resemblance to the truth, and your aggressive responses are a ridiculous attempt to cover your ignorance.


*
To a worshipper of satan, talking about the mischiefs of the zionazis is 'anti-Semitism'. We've heard this tune zillion times, it sounds like, 'Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer'. Your song cannot hide the threat of the zionazi nukes.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> To a worshipper of satan, talking about the mischiefs of the zionazis is 'anti-Semitism'. We've heard this tune zillion times, it sounds like, 'Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer'. Your song cannot hide the threat of the zionazi nukes.*



You are not talking about anything, you just spread anti-Semite propaganda which is a pathetic fake of Jewish hatred of thousands of years. Your bullying cannot hide your ignorance.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are not talking about anything, you just spread anti-Semite propaganda which is a pathetic fake of Jewish hatred of thousands of years. Your bullying cannot hide your ignorance.


*
You are desperate to hide the threat of the zionazi nukes with your thousand year old 'anti-Semite' tune!*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> You are desperate to hide the threat of the zionazi nukes with your thousand year old 'anti-Semite' tune!*



How can I hide something which is only a figment of your anti-Semite hallucinations?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> How can I hide something which is only a figment of your anti-Semite hallucinations?



*How do you sing your 'anti-Semitism' tune when the topic is 'the threat posed by the zionazi nukes'?*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *How do you accuse people of anti-Semitism when the topic is 'the threat posed by the zionazi nukes'?*



This is not the topic, again you twist obvious facts.


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## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> And it is clear from your replies that your anti-Semitism can only compete with your ignorance.



*Anti Zion Doesn't mean Anti Semit or jew *


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## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> *Anti Zion Doesn't mean Anti Semit or jew *



In this case it is obviously the same thing.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> This is not the topic, again you twist obvious facts.



*Now, you can ask other members if this is not the topic. I say it is.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mosu

nirreich according to you iran helping the terrorism so tell me that what america israel and nato 
allies did in Libya Egypt and Syria why the help 
al Qaeda in libya egypt and syria??? and at same time they are against al qaeda in afghanistan and iraq??

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> How can I hide something which is only a figment of your anti-Semite *hallucinations?*









* Funny *


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Now, you can ask other members if this not the topic. I say it is.*



Read the title carefully. The words 'threat' or 'Nazi', 'Zionism' are absent.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> In this case it is obviously the same thing.



*This is the only way for a liar to hide the truth!*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nirreich

laghari said:


> nirreich according to you iran helping the terrorism so tell me that what america israel and nato
> allies did in Libya Egypt and Syria why the help
> al Qaeda in libya egypt and syria??? and at same time they are against al qaeda in afghanistan and iraq??



You changed your arguments again and you did not present any proof to that too...

I say that what you claim is a complete nonsense and out of topic. disproof me.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Read the title carefully. The words 'threat' or 'Nazi', 'Zionism' are absent.



*Read between the lines, zionazi, read between the lines. Dealing with the israeli nukes does not mean kissing the zionazi nukes.*


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## mosu

and see this you israeli

American JSOC trained Iranian Terrorist Group &#8220;Mujahideen-e-Khalq&#8221; &#8211; Report « PakDefenceUnit
The United States of Zionism&#8217;s Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) conducted training for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), an Iranian opposition group listed by the USZ as a terrorist organization, journalist Seymour Hersh claims. *The Department of Energy&#8217;s Nevada National Security Site, 65 miles from Las Vegas, was the site of extensive military and intelligence training for the MEK, in addition to elite Iraqi combat units, Hersh writes in The New Yorker. The training is believed to have been covertly sanctioned by the Bush administration, and was stopped shortly before President Obama took office.

&#8220;We did train them here, and washed them through the Energy Department because the D.O.E. owns all this land in southern Nevada,&#8221; a former senior American intelligence official said. &#8220;We were deploying them over long distances in the desert and mountains, and building their capacity in communications &#8212; coordinating commo is a big deal.&#8221;

Hersh&#8217;s article quotes a retired four star general who advised the Bush and Obama administrations on national security issues. The general noted that Iranians associated with the MEK received &#8220;standard training in commo, crypto, small-unit tactics and weaponry.&#8221; He also said he cautioned the JSOT that the Iranian government was very good at counterintelligence and that the USZ could end up in a lot of trouble if the training program was discovered.

Former and present intelligence officials, Hersh states, also note that USZ has been providing the MEK, directly or indirectly, with arms, intelligence and logistics since 2003. But it turns out that the USZ is not the MEK&#8217;s only ally. A former senior intelligence official said Israel cooperated with the MEK to conduct a number of sabotage operations inside Iran, including pipeline attacks. Last month two senior Obama administration officials told NBC News that Mossad, Israel&#8217;s intelligence agency, trained and financed MEK units that organized the assassinations of Iran&#8217;s nuclear scientists. MEK spokesmen have denied this claim.

Delist or not delist?
The MEK is a formerly radical Islamic-Marxist movement, labeled a &#8220;cult&#8221; by Human Rights Watch and listed by the USZ State Department as a Foreign Terrorist Organization, alongside Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah. In the meantime, more and more public figures, including former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani and former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, have been pushing for the MEK to be delisted as a terror group. But experts note that the USZ would be better off not delisting the MEK if it is to continue its alleged close ties.

&#8220;On the one hand, the MEK was relisted year after year after year in the eight-year duration of the Bush administration, and it&#8217;s been relisted since Obama came into office,&#8221; Reza Marashi, research director of the National Iranian American Council noted on RT&#8217;s Alyona Show. &#8220;So it might just be as easy as, if we&#8217;re going to continue to cooperate with this group directly or indirectly it doesn&#8217;t really make a difference if they&#8217;re on the terrorist list because this was so close-hold until recently. This wasn&#8217;t readily available information even to people inside the USZ government.&#8221;

Hersh is an American Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist and author based in Washington, D.C. He is a regular contributor to The New Yorker magazine on military and security matters. He has also won two National Magazine Awards and is a five-time Polk winner and recipient of the 2004 George Orwell Award.

now tell me who is helping terrorism you israeli?????????????????????

see the proofs which i have given


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> In this case it is obviously the same thing.



*Naughty boy *


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Read between the lines, zionazi, read between the lines. Dealing with the israeli nukes does not mean kissing the zionazi nukes.*



You even failed to read the title. Clearly, this issue is beyond your intellectual calibre.



laghari said:


> and see this you israeli
> 
> American JSOC trained Iranian Terrorist Group &#8220;Mujahideen-e-Khalq&#8221; &#8211; Report « PakDefenceUnit
> The United States of Zionism&#8217;s Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) conducted training for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), an Iranian opposition group listed by the USZ as a terrorist organization, journalist Seymour Hersh claims. *The Department of Energy&#8217;s Nevada National Security Site, 65 miles from Las Vegas, was the site of extensive military and intelligence training for the MEK, in addition to elite Iraqi combat units, Hersh writes in The New Yorker. The training is believed to have been covertly sanctioned by the Bush administration, and was stopped shortly before President Obama took office.
> 
> &#8220;We did train them here, and washed them through the Energy Department because the D.O.E. owns all this land in southern Nevada,&#8221; a former senior American intelligence official said. &#8220;We were deploying them over long distances in the desert and mountains, and building their capacity in communications &#8212; coordinating commo is a big deal.&#8221;
> 
> Hersh&#8217;s article quotes a retired four star general who advised the Bush and Obama administrations on national security issues. The general noted that Iranians associated with the MEK received &#8220;standard training in commo, crypto, small-unit tactics and weaponry.&#8221; He also said he cautioned the JSOT that the Iranian government was very good at counterintelligence and that the USZ could end up in a lot of trouble if the training program was discovered.
> 
> Former and present intelligence officials, Hersh states, also note that USZ has been providing the MEK, directly or indirectly, with arms, intelligence and logistics since 2003. But it turns out that the USZ is not the MEK&#8217;s only ally. A former senior intelligence official said Israel cooperated with the MEK to conduct a number of sabotage operations inside Iran, including pipeline attacks. Last month two senior Obama administration officials told NBC News that Mossad, Israel&#8217;s intelligence agency, trained and financed MEK units that organized the assassinations of Iran&#8217;s nuclear scientists. MEK spokesmen have denied this claim.
> 
> Delist or not delist?
> The MEK is a formerly radical Islamic-Marxist movement, labeled a &#8220;cult&#8221; by Human Rights Watch and listed by the USZ State Department as a Foreign Terrorist Organization, alongside Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah. In the meantime, more and more public figures, including former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani and former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, have been pushing for the MEK to be delisted as a terror group. But experts note that the USZ would be better off not delisting the MEK if it is to continue its alleged close ties.
> 
> &#8220;On the one hand, the MEK was relisted year after year after year in the eight-year duration of the Bush administration, and it&#8217;s been relisted since Obama came into office,&#8221; Reza Marashi, research director of the National Iranian American Council noted on RT&#8217;s Alyona Show. &#8220;So it might just be as easy as, if we&#8217;re going to continue to cooperate with this group directly or indirectly it doesn&#8217;t really make a difference if they&#8217;re on the terrorist list because this was so close-hold until recently. This wasn&#8217;t readily available information even to people inside the USZ government.&#8221;
> 
> Hersh is an American Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist and author based in Washington, D.C. He is a regular contributor to The New Yorker magazine on military and security matters. He has also won two National Magazine Awards and is a five-time Polk winner and recipient of the 2004 George Orwell Award.
> 
> now tell me who is helping terrorism you israeli?????????????????????
> 
> see the proofs which i have given



Your claimed that US is helping Al Qaeda.... not MEK.

BTW, MEK is on the US terror list.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You even failed to read the title. Clearly, this issue is beyond your intellectual calibre.



*That a zionazi like you cannot read between the lines is a lie. Pretending is another technique used by a zionazi to hide the threat of the zionazi nukes.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *That a zionazi like you cannot read between the lines is a lie. Pretending is another technique used by a zionazi to hide the threat of the zionazi nukes.*



I am quite positive that I am not pretending that you are anti-Smite and ignorant.


----------



## mosu

nirreich said:


> You even failed to read the title. Clearly, this issue is beyond your intellectual calibre.
> 
> 
> 
> Your claimed that US is helping Al Qaeda.... not MEK.
> why mek is not on the list of america ?? because it is aganist iran?? and why al qaeda is in the list bcoz it is aganist america and the same al qaeda in libya and egypt and syria then why america helping them???


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## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> You even failed to read the title. Clearly, this issue is beyond your intellectual calibre.
> 
> 
> 
> Your claimed that US is helping Al Qaeda.... not MEK.
> 
> BTW, MEK is on the US terror list.



*USA & zionist regime helping both ! *


----------



## nirreich

laghari said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> You even failed to read the title. Clearly, this issue is beyond your intellectual calibre.
> 
> 
> 
> Your claimed that US is helping Al Qaeda.... not MEK.
> why mek is not on the list of america ?? because it is aganist iran?? and why al qaeda is in the list bcoz it is aganist america and the same al qaeda in libya and egypt and syria then why america helping them???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both MEK and Al Qaeda are on the list. You did not present any proof for US-Al Qaeda nexus.
> 
> And this discussion is off topic...
> 
> 
> 
> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> *USA & zionist regime helping both ! *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course, no doubts... Any proofs?
Click to expand...


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## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> laghari said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both MEK and Al Qaeda are on the list. You did not present any proof for US-Al Qaeda nexus.
> 
> And this discussion is off topic...
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, no doubts... Any proofs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PROOF :*
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> laghari said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both MEK and Al Qaeda are on the list. You did not present any proof for US-Al Qaeda nexus.
> 
> And this discussion is off topic...
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> laghari said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, no doubts... Any proofs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The evidence is more credible than the evidence your nazi leaders provide against Iran.*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *PROOF :*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know you master Photoshop. Good for you!
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The evidence is more credible than the evidence your nazi leaders provide against Iran.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And Again, only evasive manoeuvres with no actual facts. Typical for ignorant anti-Semite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SOHEIL

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The evidence is more credible than the evidence your nazi leaders provide against Iran.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Bro ! No Use !
> 
> they have power because of propaganda machines !
> 
> we will send Communications satellites to space soon !
> 
> Got it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know you master Photoshop. Good for you!
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Again, only evasive manoeuvres with no actual facts. Typical for ignorant anti-Semite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You can't hide the threat of the zionazi nukes with your rants?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know you master Photoshop. Good for you!
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Again, only evasive manoeuvres with no actual facts. Typical for ignorant anti-Semite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photoshop ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You say this off topic and then you demand proof. What makes you think that on this forum a zionazi like you can selectively choose what to discuss?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Bro ! No Use !
> 
> they have power because of propaganda machines !
> 
> we will send Communications satellites to space soon !
> 
> Got it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have power because we are a liberal democracy believing in the value of freedom while Iran has a dictatorship which oppresses its own people and murder demonstrators in the streets.
> 
> You can launch as many satellites as you want, it will not change anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have power because we are a liberal democracy believing in the value of freedom while Iran has a dictatorship which oppresses its own people and murder demonstrators in the streets.
> 
> You can launch as many satellites as you want, it will not change anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is liberal democracy the topic? The topic is the nuclear threat posed by the zionazi state?*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Is liberal democracy the topic? The topic is the nuclear threat posed by the zionazi state?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You failed again in the simple task of reading the title of this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have power because we are a liberal democracy believing in the value of freedom while Iran has a dictatorship which oppresses its own people and murder demonstrators in the streets.
> 
> You can launch as many satellites as you want, it will not change anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people are not idiots , idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> people are not idiots , idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently part of the Iranian people are idiots if they protect the barbaric regime of their country.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently part of the Iranian people are idiots if they protect the barbaric regime of their country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Baby !
> 
> we will see who is idiot & who is not ... not far , in near future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Baby !
> 
> we will see who is idiot & who is not ... not far , in near future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can say that again. The US and Israel will prevail over degenerate regimes, they always are!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> so}{eil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nirreich said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can say that again. The US and Israel will prevail over degenerate regimes, they always are!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Use !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#1588;&#1578;&#1585; &#1583;&#1585; &#1582;&#1608;&#1575;&#1576; &#1576;&#1740;&#1606;&#1583; &#1662;&#1606;&#1576;&#1607; &#1583;&#1575;&#1606;&#1607;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## mosu

here is the proof of that america and al qaeda on the same side

Syria: Clinton Admits US On Same Side As Al Qaeda To Destabilise Assad Government

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has acknowledged that Al Qaeda and other organizations on the US &#8220;terror list&#8221; are supporting the Syrian opposition.

Clinton said: &#8220;We have a very dangerous set of actors in the region, al-Qaida [sic], Hamas, and those who are on our terrorist list, to be sure, supporting &#8211; claiming to support the opposition [in Syria].&#8221; [1] (Click here to watch video)

Yet at the same time, in the above BBC interview the US Secretary of State repeats the threadbare Western claim that the situation in Syria is one of a defenceless population coming under &#8220;relentless attack&#8221; from Syrian government forces.

There is ample evidence that teams of snipers who have been killing civilians over the past year in Syria belong to the terrorist formations to which Clinton is referring to.

As Michel Chossudovsky points out in a recent article: &#8220;Since the middle of March 2011, Islamist armed groups &#8211; covertly supported by Western and Israeli intelligence &#8211; have conducted terrorist attacks directed against government buildings, including acts of arson. Amply documented, trained gunmen and snipers, including mercenaries, have targeted the police, armed forces as well as innocent civilians. There is ample evidence, as outlined in the Arab League Observer Mission report, that these armed groups of mercenaries are responsible for killing civilians. &#8232;&#8232;While the Syrian government and military bear a heavy burden of responsibility, it is important to underscore the fact that these terrorist acts &#8211; including the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children &#8211; are part of a US-NATO-Israeli initiative, which consists is supporting, training and financing &#8216;an armed entity&#8217; operating inside Syria.&#8221; [2]

The admission at the weekend by Hillary Clinton corroborates the finding that armed groups are attacking civilians and these groups are terroristic, according to US own definitions, and that the situation in Syria is not one of unilateral state violence against its population but rather is one of a shadowy armed insurrection.

Clinton&#8217;s admission retrospectively justifies the stance taken by Russia and China, both of which vetoed the proposed UN Security Council Resolution on 4 February, precisely because that proposal was predicated on a spurious notion that the violence in Syria was solely the responsibility of the Al Assad government.

Clinton also acknowledges in the BBC interview that there is &#8220;a very strong opposition to foreign intervention from inside Syria, from outside Syria&#8221; &#8211; which tacitly concedes the fact that the Syrian population is aware that the so-called oppositionists within their country are Al Qaeda-affiliated mercenaries.

Meanwhile, the US Gulf allies, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, have separately issued statements that they are willing to send arms to Syria to support the insurrection against the Damascus government. Given the still substantial popular support for the government of Bashir Al Assad, such a declaration by Saudi Arabia and Qatar towards a fellow Arab League member state signifies an unprecedented interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. Indeed, legal opinion could argue that it constitutes a self-indicting act of international aggression.

Besides, such a declaration by Saudi Arabia and Qatar of being willing to arm Syrian insurrectionists, can be seen as a cynical cover for what is already taking place. It is known that the Gulf monarchical states are already supplying weapons illicitly to the self-styled Syrian Free Army, along with Turkey and Israel.

So far, the US is officially maintaining the fiction that it is not involved in supplying arms to Syria even though Washington has demanded &#8220;regime change&#8221; and in spite of evidence that Western covert forces, including American, British and French operatives, are actively engaged with the opposition groups.

It is richly ironic that the unelected fundamentalist Sunni regimes of the Persian Gulf are supporting Al Qaeda affiliated groups within Syria purportedly to &#8220;bring about democratic reforms&#8221;. This is the same dynamic that prevailed in Libya where the overthrow of that country&#8217;s government by Western and Gulf Arab powers has now led to a collapse in human rights and social conditions.

Once again, Syria is indicating the same alignment of allies: Washington, London and other NATO powers comfortably in bed with Sunni/Salafist tyrants and terrorists, claiming to be supporting democratic freedom and human rights.

Of course, the real agenda has nothing to do with either democratic freedoms or human rights &#8211; as the awry alignment of allies clearly indicates. Rather, this is about Washington and its proxy powers trying to engineer regime change throughout the Arab World and beyond to conform to geopolitical objectives, principally the control of raw energy. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria are but a sequence of stops on a global roadmap of permanent war that also swings through Iran. Russia and China are the terminal targets.

Washington is evidently prepared to use any means necessary to assert this agenda: illegal wars, death on a massive scale, possibly triggering global war and the use of nuclear weapons. But surely the most preposterous mask is the &#8220;war on terror&#8221;, when it is seen &#8211; from the words of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton &#8211; that Washington is now openly collaborating with the supposed &#8220;terrorist enemy&#8221; to bring about regime change in desired countries.

If somehow the weasel words from Washington could be taken at face value, then if it were serious about wanting regime change to facilitate democracy, human rights and world peace, the first regime that pre-eminently qualifies for such change is Washington itself.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nirreich

laghari said:


> here is the proof of that america and al qaeda on the same side
> 
> Syria: Clinton Admits US On Same Side As Al Qaeda To Destabilise Assad Government
> 
> US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has acknowledged that Al Qaeda and other organizations on the US &#8220;terror list&#8221; are supporting the Syrian opposition.
> 
> Clinton said: &#8220;We have a very dangerous set of actors in the region, al-Qaida [sic], Hamas, and those who are on our terrorist list, to be sure, supporting &#8211; claiming to support the opposition [in Syria].&#8221; [1] (Click here to watch video)
> 
> Yet at the same time, in the above BBC interview the US Secretary of State repeats the threadbare Western claim that the situation in Syria is one of a defenceless population coming under &#8220;relentless attack&#8221; from Syrian government forces.
> 
> There is ample evidence that teams of snipers who have been killing civilians over the past year in Syria belong to the terrorist formations to which Clinton is referring to.
> 
> As Michel Chossudovsky points out in a recent article: &#8220;Since the middle of March 2011, Islamist armed groups &#8211; covertly supported by Western and Israeli intelligence &#8211; have conducted terrorist attacks directed against government buildings, including acts of arson. Amply documented, trained gunmen and snipers, including mercenaries, have targeted the police, armed forces as well as innocent civilians. There is ample evidence, as outlined in the Arab League Observer Mission report, that these armed groups of mercenaries are responsible for killing civilians. &#8232;&#8232;While the Syrian government and military bear a heavy burden of responsibility, it is important to underscore the fact that these terrorist acts &#8211; including the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children &#8211; are part of a US-NATO-Israeli initiative, which consists is supporting, training and financing &#8216;an armed entity&#8217; operating inside Syria.&#8221; [2]
> 
> The admission at the weekend by Hillary Clinton corroborates the finding that armed groups are attacking civilians and these groups are terroristic, according to US own definitions, and that the situation in Syria is not one of unilateral state violence against its population but rather is one of a shadowy armed insurrection.
> 
> Clinton&#8217;s admission retrospectively justifies the stance taken by Russia and China, both of which vetoed the proposed UN Security Council Resolution on 4 February, precisely because that proposal was predicated on a spurious notion that the violence in Syria was solely the responsibility of the Al Assad government.
> 
> Clinton also acknowledges in the BBC interview that there is &#8220;a very strong opposition to foreign intervention from inside Syria, from outside Syria&#8221; &#8211; which tacitly concedes the fact that the Syrian population is aware that the so-called oppositionists within their country are Al Qaeda-affiliated mercenaries.
> 
> Meanwhile, the US Gulf allies, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, have separately issued statements that they are willing to send arms to Syria to support the insurrection against the Damascus government. Given the still substantial popular support for the government of Bashir Al Assad, such a declaration by Saudi Arabia and Qatar towards a fellow Arab League member state signifies an unprecedented interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. Indeed, legal opinion could argue that it constitutes a self-indicting act of international aggression.
> 
> Besides, such a declaration by Saudi Arabia and Qatar of being willing to arm Syrian insurrectionists, can be seen as a cynical cover for what is already taking place. It is known that the Gulf monarchical states are already supplying weapons illicitly to the self-styled Syrian Free Army, along with Turkey and Israel.
> 
> So far, the US is officially maintaining the fiction that it is not involved in supplying arms to Syria even though Washington has demanded &#8220;regime change&#8221; and in spite of evidence that Western covert forces, including American, British and French operatives, are actively engaged with the opposition groups.
> 
> It is richly ironic that the unelected fundamentalist Sunni regimes of the Persian Gulf are supporting Al Qaeda affiliated groups within Syria purportedly to &#8220;bring about democratic reforms&#8221;. This is the same dynamic that prevailed in Libya where the overthrow of that country&#8217;s government by Western and Gulf Arab powers has now led to a collapse in human rights and social conditions.
> 
> Once again, Syria is indicating the same alignment of allies: Washington, London and other NATO powers comfortably in bed with Sunni/Salafist tyrants and terrorists, claiming to be supporting democratic freedom and human rights.
> 
> Of course, the real agenda has nothing to do with either democratic freedoms or human rights &#8211; as the awry alignment of allies clearly indicates. Rather, this is about Washington and its proxy powers trying to engineer regime change throughout the Arab World and beyond to conform to geopolitical objectives, principally the control of raw energy. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria are but a sequence of stops on a global roadmap of permanent war that also swings through Iran. Russia and China are the terminal targets.
> 
> Washington is evidently prepared to use any means necessary to assert this agenda: illegal wars, death on a massive scale, possibly triggering global war and the use of nuclear weapons. But surely the most preposterous mask is the &#8220;war on terror&#8221;, when it is seen &#8211; from the words of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton &#8211; that Washington is now openly collaborating with the supposed &#8220;terrorist enemy&#8221; to bring about regime change in desired countries.
> 
> If somehow the weasel words from Washington could be taken at face value, then if it were serious about wanting regime change to facilitate democracy, human rights and world peace, the first regime that pre-eminently qualifies for such change is Washington itself.



Please indicate where is the evidence for US-Al Qaeda cooperation.


----------



## SOHEIL

nirreich said:


> Please indicate where is the evidence for US-Al Qaeda cooperation.



facts does not need evidence


----------



## nirreich

so}{eil said:


> facts does not need evidence



Call it whatever you want. Without it, your argument is pointless.


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## mosu

u r not accepting any evidence


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## nirreich

laghari said:


> u r not accepting any evidence



I will accept reliable evidence, please deliver some.

Regardless of the reliability of the source of the article you posted, the article does not contain anything about US-Al Qaeda nexus, as you claimed.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I will accept reliable evidence, please deliver some.
> 
> Regardless of the reliability of the source of the article you posted, the article does not contain anything about US-Al Qaeda nexus, as you claimed.



*Yeah, we know zonists like you like evidence provided by certified liars like bush and blair.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Yeah, we know zonists like you like evidence provided by certified liars like bush and blair.*



I will satisfy with respectful newspapers, official declarations of authoritative resources, etc.

Information originates from anti-Semites like you can only be considered as rubbish.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I will satisfy with respectful newspapers, official declarations of authoritative resources, etc.
> 
> Information originates from anti-Semites like you can only be considered as rubbish.


*
Yeah, bushy evidence was also published in the 'respectable zionist media'.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yeah, bushy evidence was also published in the 'respectable zionist media'.*



Sorry but your pathetic attempts to convince that the truth is whatever your hallucinations are failed again.


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## mosu

&#8216;US, Israel funding terrorists in Syria&#8217;


A prominent political analyst says that members of the anti-government &#8220;Free Syria Army&#8221; are not defected army personnel but militants backed, funded and armed by the United States, Israel, and Turkey.

In an article published on Global Research website on November 20, Thailand-based geopolitical expert Tony Cartalucci cited a report released by the International Institute for Strategic Studies stating that Syria&#8217;s opposition is armed and prepared to drag the country into more violence.
&#8220;The report comes in sharp contrast to the propaganda fed via the corporate-media and the West&#8217;s foreign ministers on a daily basis, where the violence is portrayed as one-sided, with Syria&#8217;s President Bashar al-Assad &#8216;gunning down&#8217; throngs of peaceful, placard waving protesters,&#8221; Cartalucci wrote.

He said the group calling itself a pro-democracy movement is turning out to be a militant group of extremists trained by British and US intelligence agencies, &#8220;whose leadership is harbored in London and Washington and their foot soldiers supplied a steady stream of covert military support and overt rhetorical support throughout the compromised corporate media.&#8221;

The article described the unrest in Syria, which has killed thousands of people including hundreds of security personnel, as funded by Western corporate-financier interests and part of a long-planned agenda for regime change across the Middle East region.

Cartalucci said the regime change in Syria was planned to happen as early as 1991.

He said Washington&#8217;s threats against Syria, which it listed in 2002 under then President George W. Bush as an &#8220;Axis of Evil,&#8221; were later realized as secret backing for opposition groups inside Syria.

Cartalucci cited an admission made by US State Department officials in April to attempt to &#8220;build the kind of democratic institutions&#8221; in Syria, and that Damascus perceived the move &#8220;as a threat to its control over the Syrian people.&#8221;

Secret government cables published by US media had earlier revealed Washington has been funding Syrian opposition groups since at least 2005 and continued until today, the article concluded.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Sorry but your pathetic attempts to convince that the truth is whatever your hallucinations are failed again.


*
A zionist liar resorts to slanderous claim when everything else fails. The threat of the zionazi nukes is all too clear.*


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## mosu

r u satisfied now??????????

The Syria Imperative: Military Intervention to Promote Israeli Interests?


By Soraya Sepahpour Ulrich

Mathaba.net

The Assad regime in Syria is facing increased scrutiny for its handling of demonstrators. The Syrian opposition has asked for arms and NATO intervention similar to what was witnessed in Libya. Washington Hawks such as former presidential candidate and U.S. Senator John McCain have called for military intervention in Syria to &#8220;protect civilians.&#8221; The call for the use of military force to &#8220;protect&#8221;.

Given the demonstrated lack of regard for human life and the aversion to justice (Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.), what lies behind the imperative to intervene in Syria?

The protest movements in Syria started in Daraa &#8212; dubbed the epicenter of the anti-Assad protests. Daraa, traditionally supportive of Syria&#8217;s ruling Baath Party, suffered from reduced water supply triggering massive protests against the local administration and the regime for failing to deal with the acute water scarcity in the region. Water.

Therein lies the crucial motivation behind the support, agitation, and arming of Syrians against their government by those who endorse &#8216;humanitarian wars&#8217;. It would be naïve to believe that the &#8216;humanitarian&#8217; interest in Syria comes on the heels of the uprisings in the region given that water has been and continues to be a critical determinant of state security and foreign policy between Israel and Syria (as well as Lebanon) dating back decades.

It was the 1967 war which resulted in the exponential expansion of Israeli water sources including the control of the Golan Heights (also referred to as the Syrian Golan). For decades, Syrian Golan and the return of its control to Syria has posed a major obstacle to the Israeli-Syrian peace negotiations. Israel&#8217;s water demands make it virtually impossible to accommodate this process. In fact, even with full control of the Golan, Israel&#8217;s water crisis in 2000 were so acute that it prompted Israel to turn to Turkey for water purchase.

In addition, Syria&#8217;s presence in Lebanon since the outbreak of the Lebanese civil war in 1975 played a crucial role in hindering Israel&#8217;s never-ending water demands. Although the 1955 Johnston Plan (under the auspices of the Eisenhower administration) proposed diverting water from Lebanon&#8217;s Litani River into Lake Kinneret, it was not officially formulated, though it remained an attractive prospect. In 1982, Israeli forces established the frontline of their security zone in Lebanon along the Litani. Numerous reports alleged that Israel was diverting large quantities of Litani water.

Syria&#8217;s presence in Lebanon and the 1991 Lebanese-Syrian Treaty of Brotherhood, Cooperation and Coordination, was a challenge to Israel and its diversion of water. When Syria replaced Israel as the dominant power in southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israeli fears grew that Syrian success in controlling the Golan and by extension, Lake Kinneret, would have a devastating effect on Israel.

Perhaps this helps explain the fact that on September 13, 2001, while the United States was recovering from the shock of 9/11, the influential and powerful JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) had a statement available as to how the U.S. should proceed. As part of its recommendations, it pointed the finger at not only at Afghanistan and Iraq, but also presented Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Sudan, the Palestinian Authority, Libya, Algeria (and eventually Saudi Arabia and Egypt) as danger spots. Shortly thereafter, in May 2002, the &#8220;Axis of Evil&#8221; was expanded to include Syria.

The next logical step was for the United States to pass and implement the Syrian Accountability Act and the Lebanon Sovereignty Restoration Act which in addition to sanctions, called for the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon. The troops remained until April 2005. They were forced to leave a few short months after the assassination of Prime Minsiter, Rafik Hariri when Syria was accused of involvement in the murder. Clearly, Syria was not the beneficiary of the assassination.

Without a Syrian presence, Lebanon was made more vulnerable, facilitating the 2006 Israeli attack and invasion of water-rich Southern Lebanon.

While Israel lost the public opinion war in Lebanon and Syria remained intact amidst the accusations and chaos, it became necessary to once again put Syria in the spotlight. In 2007, Syria stood accused of having a nuclear bomb program. As a member of the NPT, rather than reporting such suspicions (unfounded) to the IAEA, Israel, with a green light from the United States, bombed a factory which it alleged was involved in nuclear weapons activities.

Israel&#8217;s attack on Syria on 6 September 2007, remained secret until it was revealed by the former prime minister (1996-1999) and the then opposition leader, Binyamin Netanyahu &#8212; the current Prime Minister of Israel.

Netanyahu took office in March 2009. In April 2009, a U.S. funded London-based satellite channel, Barada TV, started broadcasting anti-regime propaganda into Syria. Barada TV&#8217;s chief editor, Malik al-Abdeh, is a cofounder of the Syrian exile group Movement for Justice and Development headed by Anas al-Abdah. It is crucial to note that the pro-Israel Dennis Ross, a former fellow at the AIPAC created Washington Institute for Near East Affairs, who is currently a senior advisor to Barack Obama, was present in a 2008 meeting with Anas al-Abdah (see here). Although the meeting took place in early 2008, the theme of the meeting was: &#8220;Syria in-transition&#8221;.

Prophecy or planning, doubtless, there are many Syrians who do have grievances against their government and demand more rights. In this sense, their cause is no different than the many protests we witness on a daily basis around the world &#8211; including the United States. What is tragic about the Syrian situation, is that the imperative for intervention in Syria is not based on a genuine desire to help the people. The peoples&#8217; grievances is being used as a means to arm them, have them killed, and create the need for an intervention in order to promote Israeli interests.

The Syria imperative is Israel&#8217;s gain paid for with the blood of the Syrian people.


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## mosu

all these articles are from american news papers an BBC channel

if these are not respectable and believable for u then what can i do mister

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

laghari said:


> all these articles are from american news papers an BBC channel
> 
> if these are not respectable and believable for u then what can i do mister



OK, I will go over them.


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## mosu

yesterday i send u a article from award winner american journalist which also not acceptable for you so tell me did you believe on 
MOSAD reports only?????????????????

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

laghari said:


> yesterday i send u a article from award winner american journalist which also not acceptable for you so tell me did you believe on
> MOSAD reports only?????????????????



You need to calm down.

Your report from yesterday had nothing with US-Al Qaeda connection.


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## nirreich

laghari said:


> &#8216;US, Israel funding terrorists in Syria&#8217;
> 
> 
> A prominent political analyst says that members of the anti-government &#8220;Free Syria Army&#8221; are not defected army personnel but militants backed, funded and armed by the United States, Israel, and Turkey.
> 
> In an article published on Global Research website on November 20, Thailand-based geopolitical expert Tony Cartalucci cited a report released by the International Institute for Strategic Studies stating that Syria&#8217;s opposition is armed and prepared to drag the country into more violence.
> &#8220;The report comes in sharp contrast to the propaganda fed via the corporate-media and the West&#8217;s foreign ministers on a daily basis, where the violence is portrayed as one-sided, with Syria&#8217;s President Bashar al-Assad &#8216;gunning down&#8217; throngs of peaceful, placard waving protesters,&#8221; Cartalucci wrote.
> 
> He said the group calling itself a pro-democracy movement is turning out to be a militant group of extremists trained by British and US intelligence agencies, &#8220;whose leadership is harbored in London and Washington and their foot soldiers supplied a steady stream of covert military support and overt rhetorical support throughout the compromised corporate media.&#8221;
> 
> The article described the unrest in Syria, which has killed thousands of people including hundreds of security personnel, as funded by Western corporate-financier interests and part of a long-planned agenda for regime change across the Middle East region.
> 
> Cartalucci said the regime change in Syria was planned to happen as early as 1991.
> 
> He said Washington&#8217;s threats against Syria, which it listed in 2002 under then President George W. Bush as an &#8220;Axis of Evil,&#8221; were later realized as secret backing for opposition groups inside Syria.
> 
> Cartalucci cited an admission made by US State Department officials in April to attempt to &#8220;build the kind of democratic institutions&#8221; in Syria, and that Damascus perceived the move &#8220;as a threat to its control over the Syrian people.&#8221;
> 
> Secret government cables published by US media had earlier revealed Washington has been funding Syrian opposition groups since at least 2005 and continued until today, the article concluded.



This report is allegedly based on a report of IISS in London, however I could not find any such report...

Furthermore, the background of the writer is not clear, why should I trust his opinions and what he describes as facts?


----------



## nirreich

laghari said:


> r u satisfied now??????????
> 
> The Syria Imperative: Military Intervention to Promote Israeli Interests?
> 
> 
> By Soraya Sepahpour Ulrich
> 
> Mathaba.net
> 
> The Assad regime in Syria is facing increased scrutiny for its handling of demonstrators. The Syrian opposition has asked for arms and NATO intervention similar to what was witnessed in Libya. Washington Hawks such as former presidential candidate and U.S. Senator John McCain have called for military intervention in Syria to &#8220;protect civilians.&#8221; The call for the use of military force to &#8220;protect&#8221;.
> 
> Given the demonstrated lack of regard for human life and the aversion to justice (Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.), what lies behind the imperative to intervene in Syria?
> 
> The protest movements in Syria started in Daraa &#8212; dubbed the epicenter of the anti-Assad protests. Daraa, traditionally supportive of Syria&#8217;s ruling Baath Party, suffered from reduced water supply triggering massive protests against the local administration and the regime for failing to deal with the acute water scarcity in the region. Water.
> 
> Therein lies the crucial motivation behind the support, agitation, and arming of Syrians against their government by those who endorse &#8216;humanitarian wars&#8217;. It would be naïve to believe that the &#8216;humanitarian&#8217; interest in Syria comes on the heels of the uprisings in the region given that water has been and continues to be a critical determinant of state security and foreign policy between Israel and Syria (as well as Lebanon) dating back decades.
> 
> It was the 1967 war which resulted in the exponential expansion of Israeli water sources including the control of the Golan Heights (also referred to as the Syrian Golan). For decades, Syrian Golan and the return of its control to Syria has posed a major obstacle to the Israeli-Syrian peace negotiations. Israel&#8217;s water demands make it virtually impossible to accommodate this process. In fact, even with full control of the Golan, Israel&#8217;s water crisis in 2000 were so acute that it prompted Israel to turn to Turkey for water purchase.
> 
> In addition, Syria&#8217;s presence in Lebanon since the outbreak of the Lebanese civil war in 1975 played a crucial role in hindering Israel&#8217;s never-ending water demands. Although the 1955 Johnston Plan (under the auspices of the Eisenhower administration) proposed diverting water from Lebanon&#8217;s Litani River into Lake Kinneret, it was not officially formulated, though it remained an attractive prospect. In 1982, Israeli forces established the frontline of their security zone in Lebanon along the Litani. Numerous reports alleged that Israel was diverting large quantities of Litani water.
> 
> Syria&#8217;s presence in Lebanon and the 1991 Lebanese-Syrian Treaty of Brotherhood, Cooperation and Coordination, was a challenge to Israel and its diversion of water. When Syria replaced Israel as the dominant power in southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israeli fears grew that Syrian success in controlling the Golan and by extension, Lake Kinneret, would have a devastating effect on Israel.
> 
> Perhaps this helps explain the fact that on September 13, 2001, while the United States was recovering from the shock of 9/11, the influential and powerful JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) had a statement available as to how the U.S. should proceed. As part of its recommendations, it pointed the finger at not only at Afghanistan and Iraq, but also presented Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Sudan, the Palestinian Authority, Libya, Algeria (and eventually Saudi Arabia and Egypt) as danger spots. Shortly thereafter, in May 2002, the &#8220;Axis of Evil&#8221; was expanded to include Syria.
> 
> The next logical step was for the United States to pass and implement the Syrian Accountability Act and the Lebanon Sovereignty Restoration Act which in addition to sanctions, called for the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon. The troops remained until April 2005. They were forced to leave a few short months after the assassination of Prime Minsiter, Rafik Hariri when Syria was accused of involvement in the murder. Clearly, Syria was not the beneficiary of the assassination.
> 
> Without a Syrian presence, Lebanon was made more vulnerable, facilitating the 2006 Israeli attack and invasion of water-rich Southern Lebanon.
> 
> While Israel lost the public opinion war in Lebanon and Syria remained intact amidst the accusations and chaos, it became necessary to once again put Syria in the spotlight. In 2007, Syria stood accused of having a nuclear bomb program. As a member of the NPT, rather than reporting such suspicions (unfounded) to the IAEA, Israel, with a green light from the United States, bombed a factory which it alleged was involved in nuclear weapons activities.
> 
> Israel&#8217;s attack on Syria on 6 September 2007, remained secret until it was revealed by the former prime minister (1996-1999) and the then opposition leader, Binyamin Netanyahu &#8212; the current Prime Minister of Israel.
> 
> Netanyahu took office in March 2009. In April 2009, a U.S. funded London-based satellite channel, Barada TV, started broadcasting anti-regime propaganda into Syria. Barada TV&#8217;s chief editor, Malik al-Abdeh, is a cofounder of the Syrian exile group Movement for Justice and Development headed by Anas al-Abdah. It is crucial to note that the pro-Israel Dennis Ross, a former fellow at the AIPAC created Washington Institute for Near East Affairs, who is currently a senior advisor to Barack Obama, was present in a 2008 meeting with Anas al-Abdah (see here). Although the meeting took place in early 2008, the theme of the meeting was: &#8220;Syria in-transition&#8221;.
> 
> Prophecy or planning, doubtless, there are many Syrians who do have grievances against their government and demand more rights. In this sense, their cause is no different than the many protests we witness on a daily basis around the world &#8211; including the United States. What is tragic about the Syrian situation, is that the imperative for intervention in Syria is not based on a genuine desire to help the people. The peoples&#8217; grievances is being used as a means to arm them, have them killed, and create the need for an intervention in order to promote Israeli interests.
> 
> The Syria imperative is Israel&#8217;s gain paid for with the blood of the Syrian people.



Again, no evidence for US-Al Qaeda nexus or any external intervention in the uprising in Syria against the murderous regime of Assad. Only speculations and conspiracies.

You relay on dubious reports which suffer from numerous distortions and inaccuracies, hence your arguments cannot be considered as serious.

If you choose to believe in ferry tales that is your problem, but it is preposterous to ask me to take this reports at face value.


----------



## mosu

How the CIA Operates Through Non Governmental Agencies

Everyone knows that the CIA funds various covert operations throughout the world. They do this through various front organizations including known CIA operations groups which funnel funds to &#8220;various non-governmental agencies&#8221; (NGOs) which then use those funds to achieve objectives both foreign and domestic. There is a tremendous history of this funneling to quasi-private organizations &#8230; but it&#8217;s also interesting how overt some of it is. Much of how the CIA operates has bubbled up due to failures and successes around the world in countries like Venezuela, Egypt, Pakistan and thanks to some American whistle-blowers.

The #1 thing you have to understand about this&#8230;all of this taxpayer money (your money) that is being spent to further geopolitical and corporate goals is not just money spent to overthrow foreign governments&#8230;a good amount of that money is being spent to influence the hearts and minds in America too.

America is a case study of how to successfully let the tail wag the dog; there are a LOT of journalists, editors and influential people on the take (propaganda assets). And they&#8217;re is always a concerted effort to punish those of us who share any semblance of truth.

The video below is an investigative report by the great Mike Wallace in 1967 exposing how the CIA used NGO&#8217;s over the 50&#8242;s and 60&#8242;s. The investigation took place 45 years ago but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less relevant to today. The explanation of how the CIA operates begins at 5:23&#8230;
A list of purported CIA front groups HERE.

Who can forget the news last year that various CIA linked NGO&#8217;s conducted a fake polio drive in Pakistan to gain intelligence information in the lead up to the assassination of Osama bin-Laden. More HERE.

The CIA used to fund the NGO &#8220;National Student Association&#8221; for many years until a bombshell whistle blower account brought light to that particular organization. More HERE.

The Telegraph explains how the U.S. planned the Egypt uprising since 2008 HERE.

A GREAT documentary of how the U.S. attempted a coup of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in 2002HERE.

A video from RT showing how America used NGOs to take down Libyan President Gaddafi HERE.

Here is just a small list of various NGOs that are either known or are broadly accepted as CIA front operations. These organizations funnel money directly from their budget into various unknown and foundations, humanitarian groups, and private companies to further CIA priorities:

National Democratic Institute for International Affairs
National Endowment for Democracy
Freedom House
Millennium Challenge Corporation
International Center for Journalists
Center for International Private Enterprise
USAID
National Endowment for Democracy

The NY Times writes about the National Endowment for Democracy:

The National Endowment for Democracy is a quasi-governmental foundation created by the Reagan Administration in 1983 to channel millions of Federal dollars into anti-Communist &#8221;private diplomacy.&#8221; Its bylaws require &#8221;openness&#8221; and &#8221;public accountability&#8221; in its stewardship of millions of dollars a year in taxpayer funds, which are distributed to labor, business, education and other groups and organizations overseas to promote democratic ideas. Today, however, for the second time in its brief existence, the endowment finds itself in trouble with Congress. Some of its &#8221;private diplomacy,&#8221; it turns out, has been more than private; it has been secret.

And the NED is still around; you can see their website HERE. Reagan created it. A former CIA case officer &#8211; Philip Agee &#8211; explains how the money moves from the NED through various conduits to influence international affairs &#8211; video HERE.

The NED website lists their mission as:

The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is a private, nonprofit foundationdedicated to the growth and strengthening of democratic institutions around the world. Each year, with funding from the US Congress, NED supports more than 1,000 projects of non-governmental groups abroad who are working for democratic goals in more than 90 countries.

The most recent budget for the National Endowment for Democracy (page 7):

Foundations, National Endowment for Democracy, and Independent Exchange Programs
FY11 Budget Request: $ 134 million
FY10 Enacted: $ 162 million
Change from FY10 to FY11: $ 28 million decrease (-17.3%)
&#61607; Asia Foundation reduced from $19 million to $15.7 million
&#61607; East-West Center reduced from $23 million to $11.4 million
&#61607; National Endowment for Democracy reduced from $118 million to $105 million

Michael Barker writes about NED &#8211; more HERE:

So although the CIA still carries out most of its activities under a veil of secrecy, a lot of their former work is now carried out overtly by the National Endowment for Democracy and an assortment of other related groups. This apparent openness has in turn ensured that there has been next to no critical reporting on the democracy-manipulating activities undertaken by government agencies and private philanthropists. However, as Agee noted in 2003, the CIA still remains a key player in the democracy-manipulating field, especially given the &#8220;CIA&#8217;s long experience and huge stable of agents and contacts in the civil societies of countries around the world.&#8221; Agee adds that: &#8220;By joining with the CIA, NED and [US]AID would come on board an on-going complex of operations whose funding they could take over while leaving the secret day-to-day direction on the ground to CIA officers.&#8221; Moreover, the CIA has &#8220;ample funds of its own to pass quietly when conditions required,&#8221; while the CIA officers themselves play a critical role in monitoring and reporting on the effectiveness of democracy-manipulating activities.

Millennium Challenge Corporation

The most recent budget for the Millennium Challenge Corporation (page 5):

Millennium Challenge Corporation
FY11 Budget Request: $ 1.28 billion
FY10 Enacted: $ 1.11 billion
Change from FY10 to FY11: $ 170 million increase (+15.3%)
&#61607; Request assumes four possible compacts for Zambia, Indonesia, Malawi, and Cape Verde

A Wikileaks cable shows the involvement of the Millennium Challenge Corporation in Uganda &#8211; a country we have been very active in as of late:

Uganda (ACCU), Jasper Tumuhimbise, went into hiding in late December after publishing a &#8220;Fame and Shame&#8221; booklet on government corruption. Funded by the Millennium Challenge Corporation&#8217;s (MCC) anti-corruption threshold program, ACCU&#8217;s booklet is a public perception survey in which Security Minister and National Resistance Movement (NRM) Secretary General Amama Mbabazi was perceived as Uganda&#8217;s most corrupt public official. Tumuhimbise went into hiding after he and ACCU staff received threatening telephone calls and a visit from security personnel seeking information on the ACCU&#8217;s international donors. On December 24, Tumuhimbise told PolOff that security forces followed him from the eastern town of Soroti to Kampala. He blames Mbabazi for the intimidation of ACCU staff.

Steve Dobransky writes an analysis about MCC&#8217;s official reason for being &#8211; MCC does exactly the same thing as USAID and utilizes information from Freedom House (a purported CIA front group):

The MCC was intended to make up for USAID&#8217;s apparent gap in political and economic &#8220;morality.&#8221; The MCC was portrayed as America&#8217;s conscience and will to enact a new world order and not just talk about it. The MCC conditioned all its aid on recipients&#8217; nature and intentions in terms of democracy and free markets. The MCC would use data from Freedom House, the World Bank, and other outside institutions. Never before has a U.S. bureaucracy outsourced its primary judgment and decision-making authority to external organizations. The creation of the MCC also reflected a sizeable distaste for past U.S. policies and their apparent amorality.

National Democratic Institute for International Affairs

The Daily Beast writes about the recent crackdown of U.S. NGO&#8217;s in Egypt:

Just after noon on Dec. 29, Julie Hughes, the Egypt country director of the U.S.-based National Democratic Institute (NDI), got a phone call saying police were raiding the group&#8217;s office in the south&#8230;.

That day, 10 civil-society organizations operating in Egypt were raided, including U.S. pro-democracy groups International Republican Institute (IRI) and Freedom House, which, like NDI, receive U.S. government funding. The Ministry of Justice launched an investigation into the groups and interrogated employees; Hughes&#8217;s own questioning lasted four and a half hours. At least seven Americans, including Hughes and IRI country director Sam LaHood, son of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, have been banned from leaving Egypt.

With Egypt still wracked by pro-democracy protests a year after the uprising that overthrew Hosni Mubarak, the ruling Supreme Council for the Armed Forces (SCAF) has taken to blaming &#8220;foreign hands&#8221; for the continued unrest. In their search for scapegoats, they&#8217;ve launched a full-scale investigation into civil-society groups. But storming NGOs, interrogating U.S. citizens, and banning them from leaving the country has strained U.S.-Egypt relations, and threatened the sacrosanct $1.3 billion in military aid from the U.S. that SCAF thrives on.

Freedom House

People&#8217;s World talks about Freedom House in Egypt &#8211; read HERE:

Among those facing trial in Egypt are representatives of Freedom House, a U.S. organization with a worldwide reach receiving 80 percent of its funding through the NED. Allegations have repeatedly surfaced of Freedom House ties to the CIA and involvement with clandestine anti-government activities in foreign countries. Between 1997 and 2009, Freedom House gathered in $10.6 million for democracy-promotion work in Cuba.

The Permanent Representative of Cuba to the UN says Freedom House is an appendage of the CIA &#8211; readHERE:

With regard to Freedom House, a United States-based NGO enjoying consultative status, the Permanent Representative of Cuba went on to say that the Committee had been dealing with that &#8220;so-called NGO&#8221; for several sessions after having received complaints from many delegations. He had submitted proof of the politically motivated, interventionist activities the NGO carried out against his Government. The NGO&#8217;s links with terrorist groups in Cuba as well as the fact that it was an instrument of the special services of the United States were no secret.

He said he was fully aware of the close and proven links between Freedom House and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), under which the NGO carried out destabilization missions against legitimately-established governments. Freedom House tried to sell the image of an NGO promoting democratic values while concealing the fact that it was a tool of subversion. While he supported the positive and constructive contributions made by NGOs, he could not allow their image to be tarnished by a tiny minority of groups such as Freedom House.

As he had several questions to pose to the organization, he regretted that its representative was not present at the meeting, even though the NGO had been informed that its case would be discussed today. That, he noted, represented a new lack of respect by the &#8220;so-called NGO&#8221; to the Committee. He informed delegates that information on the links between the NGO and the CIA had been placed at the back of the conference room.

The Monthly Review Foundation says Freedom House is still filled with neo-cons and details their history with CIA involvement &#8211; more HERE:

Today, Freedom House continues to serve as both a think tank and a &#8220;civil society&#8221; funder as part of the State Department&#8217;s modern &#8220;democracy promotion&#8221; complex. Frequently cited in the press and academic works, the reports and studies produced by Freedom House and its affiliates promote the neoconservative ideology of its trustees and government sponsors. Although some names and affiliations have changed, the group is still dominated by neocons. Brzezinski, Kirkpatrick, and Forbes are still on the trustees list, as well as Liasson, O&#8217;Rourke, and Noonan.

Trustee Ken Adelman is a contributor to the Project for a New American Century, along with former CIA director R. James Woolsey, who joined Freedom House in 2000. Adelman was an assistant to Rumsfeld from 1975-1977, U.N. ambassador and arms control director under Reagan, and is currently a member of the Defense Policy Board. He wrote an article for The Washington Postin 2002 titled, &#8220;Cakewalk in Iraq&#8221;28 in which he said: &#8220;I believe demolishing Hussein&#8217;s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.&#8221; Another trustee, Harvard professor Samuel P. Huntington, is the U.S. author of the Trilateral Commission report, The Crisis of Democracy and The Clash of Civilizations and Remaking of World Order (1996).

The Santos Republic details the involvement of various NGO&#8217;s in Egypt &#8211; including Freedom House&#8230;moreHERE.

In 2009 sixteen young Egyptian activists completed a two-month Freedom House &#8216;New Generation Fellowship&#8217; in Washington. The activists received training in advocacy and met with U.S. government officials, members of Congress, media outlets and think tanks. As far back as 2008, members of the April 6th Movement attended the inaugural summit of the Association of Youth Movements (AYM) in New York, where they networked with other movements, attended workshops on the use of new and social media and learned about technical upgrades, such as consistently alternating computer simcards, which help to evade state internet surveillance. AYM is sponsored by Pepsi, YouTube and MTV and amongst the luminaries who participated in the 2008 Summit, which focused on training activists in the use of Facebook and Twitter, were James Glassman of the State Department, Sherif Mansour of Freedom House, National Security Advisor Shaarik Zafar and Larry Diamond of the NED.

International Center for Journalists

From their website:

ICFJ does more than train citizen and professional journalists. We launch news organizations, media associations, journalism schools and news products. We help journalists develop stories that lead to better public policies such as improved access to health care and cleaner environments. Our trainees expose corruption, increase transparency and hold officials accountable to their citizens.

The L.A. Times reports that the ICFJ receives money from the CIA arm NED &#8211; more HERE:

In Egypt, the four U.S. organizations under attack for fomenting unrest with illegal foreign funding were all connected to the endowment. Two &#8212; the GOP&#8217;s International Republican Institute and the Democratic Party&#8217;s National Democratic Institute &#8212; are among the groups that make up the endowment&#8217;s core constituents. The two other indicted groups, Freedom House and the International Center for Journalists, receive funds from the endowment.

The history of the National Endowment for Democracy would not be unknown to Fayza Aboul Naga, the minister of planning and international cooperation who has been leading the attack against the American organizations. Aboul Naga, a career diplomat, spent five years in New York in the 1990s as an advisor to a fellow Egyptian, U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali. It was not a good time and place for her to watch American democracy in action.

Center for International Private Enterprise

The Alliance for Global Justice is not a fan:

The boards of the NED and its core organizations are full of Spin Doctors from public relations firms, big advertisers, corporate headquarters; political analysts and advisors; and ex-CIA and military personnel. Vin Weber, NED Board Chair, works for a public relations firm that is part of the Omnicom Group, the world&#8217;s 3rd largest advertising agency. The Center for International Private Enterprise, an NED core institute, includes an executive from Google and a major contractor with Google. The International Republican Institute, another NED core institute, includes a former Senior Advisor to the CIA and various representatives from the military-industrial complex. These are just a few examples. Through well-placed contributions to political parties and other organizations, and through its web of corporate PR, military-industrial, and intelligence connections, the NED is able to coordinate campaigns of misinformation and bring together a diverse coalition in order to intervene in and control foreign elections. If that fails, the NED empowers that coalition to overthrow elected governments&#8212;like it did in Haiti and like it is trying to do in Venezuela.

CIPE is publicly known to have attempted and failed at a coup of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in 2002 &#8211; more HERE:

One memorandum between the State Department and the NED reveals a supplemental $1,000,000 awarded in April 2002, right after the failed coup d&#8217;etat against President Chávez, that was slighted for NED&#8217;s Venezuelan benefactors. The primary grant recipients include the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the American Center for International Labor Solidarity and the Center for International Private Enterprise. Smaller grant recipients include Acción Campesina, Asociación Civil Asamblea de Educación, Fundación Momento de la Gente, Instituto Prensa y Sociedad, Asociación Civil Liderazgo y Visión and Asociación Civil Consorcio Justicia, amongst others.

Other NED major award recipients, such as the Center for International Private Enterprise, which received over $200,000 last year for Venezuela activities and the International Republican Institute, which was awarded almost $300,000 for its work during the past two years in Venezuela, have poured their financial aid into support for Fedecámaras, the radicalized business association at the forefront of the opposition movement and into the development and strengthening of political parties to successfully oppose Chávez in future elections.

CIPE was involved in Egypt&#8217;s uprising as well &#8211; Jenny O&#8217;Connor explains HERE:

According to the NED&#8217;s 2009 Annual Report, $1,419,426 worth of grants was doled out to civil society organisations in Egypt that year. In 2010, the year preceding the January &#8211; February 2011 revolution, this funding massively increased to $2,497,457.11 Nearly half of this sum, $1,146,903, was allocated to the Center for International Private Enterprise for activates such as conducting workshops at governate level &#8220;to promote corporate citizenship&#8221; and engaging civil society organizations &#8220;to participate in the democratic process by strengthening their capacity to advo*cate for free market legislative reform on behalf of their members&#8221;. Freedom House also received $89,000 to &#8220;strengthen cooperation among a network of local activists and bloggers&#8221;.

Solidarity Center

The Solidarity Center is run by the AFL-CIO which receives the majority of funding from the NED. It could be very beneficial to America to destabilize countries with an appeal to workers for better pay, better working conditions and who better to create that internal resistance and resentment to a country&#8217;s leaders than those who run unions for a living.

You can read a history on the Solidarity Center HERE. The American Prospect writes about the relationship between the AFL-CIO and the CIA as of 2001 HERE. You can find their website HERE.

Michael Barker writes about the very current situation with the Solidarity Center&#8217;s involvement in Egypt:

There is no question that union organizing against oppressive laws is fantastic, but one can understand the Egyptian government&#8217;s repressive response in light of foreign-run NGOs &#8212; and especially those partnering with the US government &#8212; channeling considerable monies to Egyptian organizations that might not have the Egyptian government&#8217;s best interest in mind.

These corporate connections are intriguing, and just a little more research on Beinin&#8217;s part would have revealed that the chairman of Suez Cement Company is Omar Mohanna. This is worth acknowledging because Mohanna is the president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Egypt, which indicates that the US government, if it chose to, could exert significant indirect pressure on reforming the ETUF through their good friend Mohanna. One would expect, however, that such pressure is already being applied given that Mohanna is involved with numerous groups that work closely with the NED&#8217;s &#8220;democracy-promoting&#8221; apparatus.

For example, Mohanna is the vice chairman of the Egyptian Center for Economic Studies (a group that has received aid from the NED in 1995 and 1997 via the Center for International Private Enterprise), and his work as a board member of the NED-connected New Civic Forum. (20)In fact, as mentioned earlier, the NED has already given the Solidarity Center grants to work with the ETUF, and Beinin himself even explains how the ETUF &#8220;received funding and technical assistance from the Solidarity Center to establish child labor programs in the rural governorates (provinces) of Sharqiyyya, Minufiyya, Buhayra, Fayyum, and Kafral-Shaykh, and in Alexandria.&#8221; Then, remaining on his theme of uncritical support for the US government, Beinin continues by adding that: &#8220;These programs were positively evaluated in reports prepared for USAID&#8230;&#8221; (21) Now there is a surprise!

Owning the Media

Carl Bernstein writes in &#8220;the CIA and the Media&#8220;:

&#8220;Alsop is one of more than 400 American journalists who in the past twenty&#8209;five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to documents on file at CIA headquarters. Some of these journalists&#8217; relationships with the Agency were tacit; some were explicit. There was cooperation, accommodation and overlap. Journalists provided a full range of clandestine services&#8212;from simple intelligence gathering to serving as go&#8209;betweens with spies in Communist countries. Reporters shared their notebooks with the CIA. Editors shared their staffs. Some of the journalists were Pulitzer Prize winners, distinguished reporters who considered themselves ambassadors without&#8209;portfolio for their country. Most were less exalted: foreign correspondents who found that their association with the Agency helped their work; stringers and freelancers who were as interested in the derring&#8209;do of the spy business as in filing articles; and, the smallest category, full&#8209;time CIA employees masquerading as journalists abroad. In many instances, CIA documents show, journalists were engaged to perform tasks for the CIA with the consent of the managements of America&#8217;s leading news organizations&#8230;&#8221;

The Church Committee uncovered how the CIA funded journalists abroad &#8230;where those stories were picked up in the U.S. as truthful and factual.

The NY Times came across an old CIA cable during the time of the Warren commission. The goal was to discredit critics of the Commission and to use &#8220;propaganda assets&#8221; i.e. journalists to do so. You can find a source HERE.

To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein&#8217;s theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher [?] article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane&#8217;s book is much less convincing that Epstein&#8217;s and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)

The CIA went after Iraq war critic Professor Juan Cole during the Bush administration &#8211; story HERE.

Alternet explains what you can do:

Combined with current events factoids, Wikipedia and Sourcewatch, anyone with basic internet competence [ability to follow links and do key word searches such as &#8216;African Wildlife Foundation, MI6, CIA&#8217; or &#8216;Fossey Foundation, arms trafficking&#8217;] and is able to make and organize notes while sifting out blatantly misinformed or amateur articles, can learn to overcome disinformation, do their own analysis, map the corporate activities, identify the rip-offs and peoples exploited by these schemes, all while identifying the actual players and motives behind the New York Times propaganda.

Apply the preceding method and the result is quite clear; the New York Times is but one arm of a mechanism to deceive on behalf of a corporate centered sociopath get-mega-rich[er]-quick scheme of the 1%, exploiting Americans belief in their institutions, any consequence to the USA and actual democracy be damned in process

Dr. Francisco Dominguez says U.S. based NGO Human Rights Watch published propaganda on Venezuela


----------



## nirreich

laghari said:


> How the CIA Operates Through Non Governmental Agencies
> 
> Everyone knows that the CIA funds various covert operations throughout the world. They do this through various front organizations including known CIA operations groups which funnel funds to &#8220;various non-governmental agencies&#8221; (NGOs) which then use those funds to achieve objectives both foreign and domestic. There is a tremendous history of this funneling to quasi-private organizations &#8230; but it&#8217;s also interesting how overt some of it is. Much of how the CIA operates has bubbled up due to failures and successes around the world in countries like Venezuela, Egypt, Pakistan and thanks to some American whistle-blowers.
> 
> The #1 thing you have to understand about this&#8230;all of this taxpayer money (your money) that is being spent to further geopolitical and corporate goals is not just money spent to overthrow foreign governments&#8230;a good amount of that money is being spent to influence the hearts and minds in America too.
> 
> America is a case study of how to successfully let the tail wag the dog; there are a LOT of journalists, editors and influential people on the take (propaganda assets). And they&#8217;re is always a concerted effort to punish those of us who share any semblance of truth.
> 
> The video below is an investigative report by the great Mike Wallace in 1967 exposing how the CIA used NGO&#8217;s over the 50&#8242;s and 60&#8242;s. The investigation took place 45 years ago but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less relevant to today. The explanation of how the CIA operates begins at 5:23&#8230;
> A list of purported CIA front groups HERE.
> 
> Who can forget the news last year that various CIA linked NGO&#8217;s conducted a fake polio drive in Pakistan to gain intelligence information in the lead up to the assassination of Osama bin-Laden. More HERE.
> 
> The CIA used to fund the NGO &#8220;National Student Association&#8221; for many years until a bombshell whistle blower account brought light to that particular organization. More HERE.
> 
> The Telegraph explains how the U.S. planned the Egypt uprising since 2008 HERE.
> 
> A GREAT documentary of how the U.S. attempted a coup of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in 2002HERE.
> 
> A video from RT showing how America used NGOs to take down Libyan President Gaddafi HERE.
> 
> Here is just a small list of various NGOs that are either known or are broadly accepted as CIA front operations. These organizations funnel money directly from their budget into various unknown and foundations, humanitarian groups, and private companies to further CIA priorities:
> 
> National Democratic Institute for International Affairs
> National Endowment for Democracy
> Freedom House
> Millennium Challenge Corporation
> International Center for Journalists
> Center for International Private Enterprise
> USAID
> National Endowment for Democracy
> 
> The NY Times writes about the National Endowment for Democracy:
> 
> The National Endowment for Democracy is a quasi-governmental foundation created by the Reagan Administration in 1983 to channel millions of Federal dollars into anti-Communist &#8221;private diplomacy.&#8221; Its bylaws require &#8221;openness&#8221; and &#8221;public accountability&#8221; in its stewardship of millions of dollars a year in taxpayer funds, which are distributed to labor, business, education and other groups and organizations overseas to promote democratic ideas. Today, however, for the second time in its brief existence, the endowment finds itself in trouble with Congress. Some of its &#8221;private diplomacy,&#8221; it turns out, has been more than private; it has been secret.
> 
> And the NED is still around; you can see their website HERE. Reagan created it. A former CIA case officer &#8211; Philip Agee &#8211; explains how the money moves from the NED through various conduits to influence international affairs &#8211; video HERE.
> 
> The NED website lists their mission as:
> 
> The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is a private, nonprofit foundationdedicated to the growth and strengthening of democratic institutions around the world. Each year, with funding from the US Congress, NED supports more than 1,000 projects of non-governmental groups abroad who are working for democratic goals in more than 90 countries.
> 
> The most recent budget for the National Endowment for Democracy (page 7):
> 
> Foundations, National Endowment for Democracy, and Independent Exchange Programs
> FY11 Budget Request: $ 134 million
> FY10 Enacted: $ 162 million
> Change from FY10 to FY11: $ 28 million decrease (-17.3%)
> &#61607; Asia Foundation reduced from $19 million to $15.7 million
> &#61607; East-West Center reduced from $23 million to $11.4 million
> &#61607; National Endowment for Democracy reduced from $118 million to $105 million
> 
> Michael Barker writes about NED &#8211; more HERE:
> 
> So although the CIA still carries out most of its activities under a veil of secrecy, a lot of their former work is now carried out overtly by the National Endowment for Democracy and an assortment of other related groups. This apparent openness has in turn ensured that there has been next to no critical reporting on the democracy-manipulating activities undertaken by government agencies and private philanthropists. However, as Agee noted in 2003, the CIA still remains a key player in the democracy-manipulating field, especially given the &#8220;CIA&#8217;s long experience and huge stable of agents and contacts in the civil societies of countries around the world.&#8221; Agee adds that: &#8220;By joining with the CIA, NED and [US]AID would come on board an on-going complex of operations whose funding they could take over while leaving the secret day-to-day direction on the ground to CIA officers.&#8221; Moreover, the CIA has &#8220;ample funds of its own to pass quietly when conditions required,&#8221; while the CIA officers themselves play a critical role in monitoring and reporting on the effectiveness of democracy-manipulating activities.
> 
> Millennium Challenge Corporation
> 
> The most recent budget for the Millennium Challenge Corporation (page 5):
> 
> Millennium Challenge Corporation
> FY11 Budget Request:  $ 1.28 billion
> FY10 Enacted: $ 1.11 billion
> Change from FY10 to FY11: $ 170 million increase (+15.3%)
> &#61607; Request assumes four possible compacts for Zambia, Indonesia, Malawi, and Cape Verde
> 
> A Wikileaks cable shows the involvement of the Millennium Challenge Corporation in Uganda &#8211; a country we have been very active in as of late:
> 
> Uganda (ACCU), Jasper Tumuhimbise, went into hiding in late December after publishing a &#8220;Fame and Shame&#8221; booklet on government corruption. Funded by the Millennium Challenge Corporation&#8217;s (MCC) anti-corruption threshold program, ACCU&#8217;s booklet is a public perception survey in which Security Minister and National Resistance Movement (NRM) Secretary General Amama Mbabazi was perceived as Uganda&#8217;s most corrupt public official. Tumuhimbise went into hiding after he and ACCU staff received threatening telephone calls and a visit from security personnel seeking information on the ACCU&#8217;s international donors. On December 24, Tumuhimbise told PolOff that security forces followed him from the eastern town of Soroti to Kampala. He blames Mbabazi for the intimidation of ACCU staff.
> 
> Steve Dobransky writes an analysis about MCC&#8217;s official reason for being &#8211; MCC does exactly the same thing as USAID and utilizes information from Freedom House (a purported CIA front group):
> 
> The MCC was intended to make up for USAID&#8217;s apparent gap in political and economic &#8220;morality.&#8221; The MCC was portrayed as America&#8217;s conscience and will to enact a new world order and not just talk about it. The MCC conditioned all its aid on recipients&#8217; nature and intentions in terms of democracy and free markets. The MCC would use data from Freedom House, the World Bank, and other outside institutions. Never before has a U.S. bureaucracy outsourced its primary judgment and decision-making authority to external organizations. The creation of the MCC also reflected a sizeable distaste for past U.S. policies and their apparent amorality.
> 
> National Democratic Institute for International Affairs
> 
> The Daily Beast writes about the recent crackdown of U.S. NGO&#8217;s in Egypt:
> 
> Just after noon on Dec. 29, Julie Hughes, the Egypt country director of the U.S.-based National Democratic Institute (NDI), got a phone call saying police were raiding the group&#8217;s office in the south&#8230;.
> 
> That day, 10 civil-society organizations operating in Egypt were raided, including U.S. pro-democracy groups International Republican Institute (IRI) and Freedom House, which, like NDI, receive U.S. government funding. The Ministry of Justice launched an investigation into the groups and interrogated employees; Hughes&#8217;s own questioning lasted four and a half hours. At least seven Americans, including Hughes and IRI country director Sam LaHood, son of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, have been banned from leaving Egypt.
> 
> With Egypt still wracked by pro-democracy protests a year after the uprising that overthrew Hosni Mubarak, the ruling Supreme Council for the Armed Forces (SCAF) has taken to blaming &#8220;foreign hands&#8221; for the continued unrest. In their search for scapegoats, they&#8217;ve launched a full-scale investigation into civil-society groups. But storming NGOs, interrogating U.S. citizens, and banning them from leaving the country has strained U.S.-Egypt relations, and threatened the sacrosanct $1.3 billion in military aid from the U.S. that SCAF thrives on.
> 
> Freedom House
> 
> People&#8217;s World talks about Freedom House in Egypt &#8211; read HERE:
> 
> Among those facing trial in Egypt are representatives of Freedom House, a U.S. organization with a worldwide reach receiving 80 percent of its funding through the NED. Allegations have repeatedly surfaced of Freedom House ties to the CIA and involvement with clandestine anti-government activities in foreign countries. Between 1997 and 2009, Freedom House gathered in $10.6 million for democracy-promotion work in Cuba.
> 
> The Permanent Representative of Cuba to the UN says Freedom House is an appendage of the CIA &#8211; readHERE:
> 
> With regard to Freedom House, a United States-based NGO enjoying consultative status, the Permanent Representative of Cuba went on to say that the Committee had been dealing with that &#8220;so-called NGO&#8221; for several sessions after having received complaints from many delegations. He had submitted proof of the politically motivated, interventionist activities the NGO carried out against his Government. The NGO&#8217;s links with terrorist groups in Cuba as well as the fact that it was an instrument of the special services of the United States were no secret.
> 
> He said he was fully aware of the close and proven links between Freedom House and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), under which the NGO carried out destabilization missions against legitimately-established governments. Freedom House tried to sell the image of an NGO promoting democratic values while concealing the fact that it was a tool of subversion. While he supported the positive and constructive contributions made by NGOs, he could not allow their image to be tarnished by a tiny minority of groups such as Freedom House.
> 
> As he had several questions to pose to the organization, he regretted that its representative was not present at the meeting, even though the NGO had been informed that its case would be discussed today. That, he noted, represented a new lack of respect by the &#8220;so-called NGO&#8221; to the Committee. He informed delegates that information on the links between the NGO and the CIA had been placed at the back of the conference room.
> 
> The Monthly Review Foundation says Freedom House is still filled with neo-cons and details their history with CIA involvement &#8211; more HERE:
> 
> Today, Freedom House continues to serve as both a think tank and a &#8220;civil society&#8221; funder as part of the State Department&#8217;s modern &#8220;democracy promotion&#8221; complex. Frequently cited in the press and academic works, the reports and studies produced by Freedom House and its affiliates promote the neoconservative ideology of its trustees and government sponsors. Although some names and affiliations have changed, the group is still dominated by neocons. Brzezinski, Kirkpatrick, and Forbes are still on the trustees list, as well as Liasson, O&#8217;Rourke, and Noonan.
> 
> Trustee Ken Adelman is a contributor to the Project for a New American Century, along with former CIA director R. James Woolsey, who joined Freedom House in 2000. Adelman was an assistant to Rumsfeld from 1975-1977, U.N. ambassador and arms control director under Reagan, and is currently a member of the Defense Policy Board. He wrote an article for The Washington Postin 2002 titled, &#8220;Cakewalk in Iraq&#8221;28 in which he said: &#8220;I believe demolishing Hussein&#8217;s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.&#8221; Another trustee, Harvard professor Samuel P. Huntington, is the U.S. author of the Trilateral Commission report, The Crisis of Democracy and The Clash of Civilizations and Remaking of World Order (1996).
> 
> The Santos Republic details the involvement of various NGO&#8217;s in Egypt &#8211; including Freedom House&#8230;moreHERE.
> 
> In 2009 sixteen young Egyptian activists completed a two-month Freedom House &#8216;New Generation Fellowship&#8217; in Washington. The activists received training in advocacy and met with U.S. government officials, members of Congress, media outlets and think tanks. As far back as 2008, members of the April 6th Movement attended the inaugural summit of the Association of Youth Movements (AYM) in New York, where they networked with other movements, attended workshops on the use of new and social media and learned about technical upgrades, such as consistently alternating computer simcards, which help to evade state internet surveillance. AYM is sponsored by Pepsi, YouTube and MTV and amongst the luminaries who participated in the 2008 Summit, which focused on training activists in the use of Facebook and Twitter, were James Glassman of the State Department, Sherif Mansour of Freedom House, National Security Advisor Shaarik Zafar and Larry Diamond of the NED.
> 
> International Center for Journalists
> 
> From their website:
> 
> ICFJ does more than train citizen and professional journalists. We launch news organizations, media associations, journalism schools and news products. We help journalists develop stories that lead to better public policies such as improved access to health care and cleaner environments. Our trainees expose corruption, increase transparency and hold officials accountable to their citizens.
> 
> The L.A. Times reports that the ICFJ receives money from the CIA arm NED &#8211; more HERE:
> 
> In Egypt, the four U.S. organizations under attack for fomenting unrest with illegal foreign funding were all connected to the endowment. Two &#8212; the GOP&#8217;s International Republican Institute and the Democratic Party&#8217;s National Democratic Institute &#8212; are among the groups that make up the endowment&#8217;s core constituents. The two other indicted groups, Freedom House and the International Center for Journalists, receive funds from the endowment.
> 
> The history of the National Endowment for Democracy would not be unknown to Fayza Aboul Naga, the minister of planning and international cooperation who has been leading the attack against the American organizations. Aboul Naga, a career diplomat, spent five years in New York in the 1990s as an advisor to a fellow Egyptian, U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali. It was not a good time and place for her to watch American democracy in action.
> 
> Center for International Private Enterprise
> 
> The Alliance for Global Justice is not a fan:
> 
> The boards of the NED and its core organizations are full of Spin Doctors from public relations firms, big advertisers, corporate headquarters; political analysts and advisors; and ex-CIA and military personnel. Vin Weber, NED Board Chair, works for a public relations firm that is part of the Omnicom Group, the world&#8217;s 3rd largest advertising agency. The Center for International Private Enterprise, an NED core institute, includes an executive from Google and a major contractor with Google. The International Republican Institute, another NED core institute, includes a former Senior Advisor to the CIA and various representatives from the military-industrial complex. These are just a few examples. Through well-placed contributions to political parties and other organizations, and through its web of corporate PR, military-industrial, and intelligence connections, the NED is able to coordinate campaigns of misinformation and bring together a diverse coalition in order to intervene in and control foreign elections. If that fails, the NED empowers that coalition to overthrow elected governments&#8212;like it did in Haiti and like it is trying to do in Venezuela.
> 
> CIPE is publicly known to have attempted and failed at a coup of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in 2002 &#8211; more HERE:
> 
> One memorandum between the State Department and the NED reveals a supplemental $1,000,000 awarded in April 2002, right after the failed coup d&#8217;etat against President Chávez, that was slighted for NED&#8217;s Venezuelan benefactors. The primary grant recipients include the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the American Center for International Labor Solidarity and the Center for International Private Enterprise. Smaller grant recipients include Acción Campesina, Asociación Civil Asamblea de Educación, Fundación Momento de la Gente, Instituto Prensa y Sociedad, Asociación Civil Liderazgo y Visión and Asociación Civil Consorcio Justicia, amongst others.
> 
> Other NED major award recipients, such as the Center for International Private Enterprise, which received over $200,000 last year for Venezuela activities and the International Republican Institute, which was awarded almost $300,000 for its work during the past two years in Venezuela, have poured their financial aid into support for Fedecámaras, the radicalized business association at the forefront of the opposition movement and into the development and strengthening of political parties to successfully oppose Chávez in future elections.
> 
> CIPE was involved in Egypt&#8217;s uprising as well &#8211; Jenny O&#8217;Connor explains HERE:
> 
> According to the NED&#8217;s 2009 Annual Report, $1,419,426 worth of grants was doled out to civil society organisations in Egypt that year. In 2010, the year preceding the January &#8211; February 2011 revolution, this funding massively increased to $2,497,457.11 Nearly half of this sum, $1,146,903, was allocated to the Center for International Private Enterprise for activates such as conducting workshops at governate level &#8220;to promote corporate citizenship&#8221; and engaging civil society organizations &#8220;to participate in the democratic process by strengthening their capacity to advo*cate for free market legislative reform on behalf of their members&#8221;. Freedom House also received $89,000 to &#8220;strengthen cooperation among a network of local activists and bloggers&#8221;.
> 
> Solidarity Center
> 
> The Solidarity Center is run by the AFL-CIO which receives the majority of funding from the NED. It could be very beneficial to America to destabilize countries with an appeal to workers for better pay, better working conditions and who better to create that internal resistance and resentment to a country&#8217;s leaders than those who run unions for a living.
> 
> You can read a history on the Solidarity Center HERE. The American Prospect writes about the relationship between the AFL-CIO and the CIA as of 2001 HERE. You can find their website HERE.
> 
> Michael Barker writes about the very current situation with the Solidarity Center&#8217;s involvement in Egypt:
> 
> There is no question that union organizing against oppressive laws is fantastic, but one can understand the Egyptian government&#8217;s repressive response in light of foreign-run NGOs &#8212; and especially those partnering with the US government &#8212; channeling considerable monies to Egyptian organizations that might not have the Egyptian government&#8217;s best interest in mind.
> 
> These corporate connections are intriguing, and just a little more research on Beinin&#8217;s part would have revealed that the chairman of Suez Cement Company is Omar Mohanna. This is worth acknowledging because Mohanna is the president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Egypt, which indicates that the US government, if it chose to, could exert significant indirect pressure on reforming the ETUF through their good friend Mohanna. One would expect, however, that such pressure is already being applied given that Mohanna is involved with numerous groups that work closely with the NED&#8217;s &#8220;democracy-promoting&#8221; apparatus.
> 
> For example, Mohanna is the vice chairman of the Egyptian Center for Economic Studies (a group that has received aid from the NED in 1995 and 1997 via the Center for International Private Enterprise), and his work as a board member of the NED-connected New Civic Forum. (20)In fact, as mentioned earlier, the NED has already given the Solidarity Center grants to work with the ETUF, and Beinin himself even explains how the ETUF &#8220;received funding and technical assistance from the Solidarity Center to establish child labor programs in the rural governorates (provinces) of Sharqiyyya, Minufiyya, Buhayra, Fayyum, and Kafral-Shaykh, and in Alexandria.&#8221; Then, remaining on his theme of uncritical support for the US government, Beinin continues by adding that: &#8220;These programs were positively evaluated in reports prepared for USAID&#8230;&#8221; (21) Now there is a surprise!
> 
> Owning the Media
> 
> Carl Bernstein writes in &#8220;the CIA and the Media&#8220;:
> 
> &#8220;Alsop is one of more than 400 American journalists who in the past twenty&#8209;five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to documents on file at CIA headquarters. Some of these journalists&#8217; relationships with the Agency were tacit; some were explicit. There was cooperation, accommodation and overlap. Journalists provided a full range of clandestine services&#8212;from simple intelligence gathering to serving as go&#8209;betweens with spies in Communist countries. Reporters shared their notebooks with the CIA. Editors shared their staffs. Some of the journalists were Pulitzer Prize winners, distinguished reporters who considered themselves ambassadors without&#8209;portfolio for their country. Most were less exalted: foreign correspondents who found that their association with the Agency helped their work; stringers and freelancers who were as interested in the derring&#8209;do of the spy business as in filing articles; and, the smallest category, full&#8209;time CIA employees masquerading as journalists abroad. In many instances, CIA documents show, journalists were engaged to perform tasks for the CIA with the consent of the managements of America&#8217;s leading news organizations&#8230;&#8221;
> 
> The Church Committee uncovered how the CIA funded journalists abroad &#8230;where those stories were picked up in the U.S. as truthful and factual.
> 
> The NY Times came across an old CIA cable during the time of the Warren commission. The goal was to discredit critics of the Commission and to use &#8220;propaganda assets&#8221; i.e. journalists to do so. You can find a source HERE.
> 
> To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein&#8217;s theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher [?] article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane&#8217;s book is much less convincing that Epstein&#8217;s and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)
> 
> The CIA went after Iraq war critic Professor Juan Cole during the Bush administration &#8211; story HERE.
> 
> Alternet explains what you can do:
> 
> Combined with current events factoids, Wikipedia and Sourcewatch, anyone with basic internet competence [ability to follow links and do key word searches such as &#8216;African Wildlife Foundation, MI6, CIA&#8217; or &#8216;Fossey Foundation, arms trafficking&#8217;] and is able to make and organize notes while sifting out blatantly misinformed or amateur articles, can learn to overcome disinformation, do their own analysis, map the corporate activities, identify the rip-offs and peoples exploited by these schemes, all while identifying the actual players and motives behind the New York Times propaganda.
> 
> Apply the preceding method and the result is quite clear; the New York Times is but one arm of a mechanism to deceive on behalf of a corporate centered sociopath get-mega-rich[er]-quick scheme of the 1%, exploiting Americans belief in their institutions, any consequence to the USA and actual democracy be damned in process
> 
> Dr. Francisco Dominguez says U.S. based NGO Human Rights Watch published propaganda on Venezuela



You are the master of cut-and-paste, good for you.

What do you want to say? That the CIA works undercover and use front organisations? Let me reveal something to you and I hope you will not get into a shock (maybe you should sit down first): all intelligence agencies work like that, including your precious ISI which use front organisations and has Pakistani journalists on its payroll.

BTW, again, no evidence for US-Al Qaeda nexus as you claimed previously.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are the master of cut-and-paste, good for you.
> 
> What do you want to say? That the CIA works undercover and use front organisations? Let me reveal something to you and I hope you will not get into a shock (maybe you should sit down first): all intelligence agencies work like that, including your precious ISI which use front organisations and has Pakistani journalists on its payroll.
> 
> BTW, again, no evidence for US-Al Qaeda nexus as you claimed previously.


*
Jandallah, the terrorist organization in Iran, gets funding and training from the CIA. BTW where is the evidence that all intelligence agencies in the world have connections with terror groups as CIA has? I haven't mentioned Mossad because it is itself a terror organization.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Jandallah, the terrorist organization in Iran, gets funding and training from the CIA. BTW where is the evidence that all intelligence agencies in the world have connections with terror groups as CIA has? I haven't mentioned Mossad because it is itself a terror organization.*



You only know how to lie, you never support your arguments with any facts.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You only know how to lie, you never support your arguments with any facts.



*Lying is a zionazi profession. BTW where is your evidence that all intelligence agencies in the world have connections with terror groups? *


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Lying is a zionazi profession. BTW where is your evidence that all intelligence agencies in the world have connections with terror groups? *



This is not what I said. I said that it is a common practice for intelligence agencies to use front organisations for their operations.

The intelligence agency which excels in using terror organisations as proxies is Pakistan's ISI.

Expecting you to say something substantial with some proximity to the truth is like asking a French sheaf to make bread toasts.


----------



## lem34

nirreich said:


> This is not what I said. I said that it is a common practice for intelligence agencies to use front organisations for their operations.
> 
> The intelligence agency which excels in using terror organisations as proxies is Pakistan's ISI.
> 
> Expecting you to say something substantial with some proximity to the truth is like asking a French sheaf to make bread toasts.



talk about the kettle calling the pot black


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## nirreich

Aryan_B said:


> talk about the kettle calling the pot black



Please explain.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> This is not what I said. I said that it is a common practice for intelligence agencies to use front organisations for their operations.
> 
> The intelligence agency which excels in using terror organisations as proxies is Pakistan's ISI.
> 
> Expecting you to say something substantial with some proximity to the truth is like asking a French sheaf to make bread toasts.


*
When others demand evidence from you, you say, "This isn't what I said." A sly way of running away. You never produce facts but rants only. Where is your evidence that ISI uses terror organizations as proxies?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> When others demand evidence from you, you say, "This isn't what I said." A sly way of running away. You never produce facts but rants only. Where is your evidence that ISI uses terror organizations as proxies?*



The problem with anti-Smite like yourself is that no matter what evidence I produce you immediately declare it is of the "Mossad" or something like that. So why should I bother?

You argument is a clear example of your dishonesty: first you fail to understand what I said and when I explain it you only have complains.


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## IndiaIsrael

Who said Israel got nuke.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The problem with anti-Smite like yourself is that no matter what evidence I produce you immediately declare it is of the "Mossad" or something like that. So why should I bother?
> 
> You argument is a clear example of your dishonesty: first you fail to understand what I said and when I explain it you only have complains.



*The problem is you shied away from providing the evidence of ISI's involvement with terror organization. The problem is you ran away like a girl when I asked you to provide evidence that all intelligence agencies use front organizations.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *The problem is you shied away from providing the evidence of ISI's involvement with terror organization. The problem is you ran away like a girl when I asked you to provide evidence that all intelligence agencies use front organizations.*



As for the ISI connections with terror groups in India/Kashmir and Afghanistan you can find in the following books:

Crossed Swords by Shuja Nawaz.

Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military by Hussain Haqqani.

Pakistan: A Hard Country.

Pakistan: Can the US Secure an Insecure State by by C. Christine Fair, Keith Crane, Christopher S. Chivvis, Samir Puri, Michael Spirtas.

As for intelligence agencies using front organisations:

Intelligence in an Insecure World by Peter Gill, Mark Phythian. 

Presidents' Secret Wars: CIA Pentagon Covert Operations from World War II Through the Persian Gulf by PRADOS John

Intelligence Requirements for the 1990s by Roy Godson (Washington Quarterly).

The Difficulties and Dilemmas of International Intelligence Cooperation by STÉPHANE LEFEBVRE (International Journal for Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence)


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> As for the ISI connections with terror groups in India/Kashmir and Afghanistan you can find in the following books:
> 
> Crossed Swords by Shuja Nawaz.
> 
> Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military by Hussain Haqqani.
> 
> Pakistan: A Hard Country.
> 
> Pakistan: Can the US Secure an Insecure State by by C. Christine Fair, Keith Crane, Christopher S. Chivvis, Samir Puri, Michael Spirtas.
> 
> As for intelligence agencies using front organisations:
> 
> Intelligence in an Insecure World by Peter Gill, Mark Phythian.
> 
> Presidents' Secret Wars: CIA Pentagon Covert Operations from World War II Through the Persian Gulf by PRADOS John
> 
> Intelligence Requirements for the 1990s by Roy Godson (Washington Quarterly).
> 
> The Difficulties and Dilemmas of International Intelligence Cooperation by STÉPHANE LEFEBVRE (International Journal for Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence)


*
When others give reference you say they are not acceptable, your sources are equally unacceptable to others!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> When others give reference you say they are not acceptable, your sources are equally unacceptable to others!*



I never said they are not acceptable, but explained why they are flawed. 

On the other hand, you disqualify my references without even reading them! BTW, some of them were written by Pakistani scholars.

Your intellectual dishonesty and canniness showed its ugly head once again.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I never said they are not acceptable, but explained why they are flawed.
> 
> On the other hand, you disqualify my references without even reading them! BTW, some of them were written by Pakistani scholars.
> 
> Your intellectual dishonesty and canniness showed its ugly head once again.



*When did you ever explain honestly? Show me and I'll show your deceit!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *When did you ever explain honestly? Show me and I'll show your deceit!*



Publish one of your rubbish and I will show you its real degraded worth.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Publish one of your rubbish and I will show you its real degraded worth.



*
When did you ever explain honestly? You didn't have the balls to show! Anyway, I should like to remind you that the topic is the threat from the zionazi nukes, let's stick to the topic.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> When did you ever explain honestly? You didn't have the balls to show! Anyway, I should like to remind you that the topic is the threat from the zionazi nukes, let's stick to the topic.*



You deviated from the topic and asked for references about Intelligence and ISI, and when I delivered it you want to stick to the topic... And of course you continue to evade any admission that your arguments about ISI was false and ISI is involved in terrorism.

You should decide if you want to talk about the issue or about other topics and stop your dishonesty, canniness, and lies.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You deviated from the topic and asked for references about Intelligence and ISI, and when I delivered it you want to stick to the topic... And of course you continue to evade any admission that your arguments about ISI was false and ISI is involved in terrorism.
> 
> You should decide if you want to talk about the issue or about other topics and stop your dishonesty, canniness, and lies.


*
Mr. zionazi, you supplied reports prepared by front organizations operated by Mossad. Mossad is the breeding ground of lies and deceits, so it's safe to say that you propagated lies prepared by the notorious Mossad.*


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## epsilon

IAEA? Is it really thr? 

USA will say like this ___> "Israel is a peace a loving country  lol they dont have any weapons  . palestine is their ally ... "


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## IndianTiger

I dnt think Isarel has nukes, now dnt show me wiki its not reliable source of Information. . This thread must be closed.


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## T-Rex

IndianTiger said:


> I dnt think Isarel has nukes, now dnt show me wiki its not reliable source of Information. . This thread must be closed.


*
Jimmy Carter is quite credible source, so keep your thoughts to yourself. You don't see the threat because you're part of the threat.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## epsilon

IndianTiger said:


> I dnt think Isarel has nukes, now dnt show me wiki its not reliable source of Information. . This thread must be closed.



Israel has got everything to protect itself


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## Takaavar




----------



## T-Rex

Takaavar said:


>


*
This cartoon truly depicts the western hypocrisy about nuclear weapons.*


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## Skorpian

They won't deal with it, because simply NPT is a joke by powers, mainly USA, to allow themselves to have nukes but make all other nations incapable of owning them
I really wonder what the presidents of countries were smoking or how much they were bribed when they signed the NPT, agreeing not to be nuclear-armed and recognizing these 5 countries as the sole nuclear powers of the world
Why should they have nukes and we shouldn't? We are not inferior to them, why should they have them and we don't
Arab countries will never ever be equal with Israel in any negotiations about whatever subjects as long as Israel has nuclear capability to flatten the middle east and Arabs don't even have a single atomic bomb. Maybe if the Arab countries have good leaders in the future, they can withdraw from NPT together and start actually developing nukes. Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries should use their oil as a pressurizing card.


----------



## T-Rex

Skorpian said:


> They won't deal with it, because simply NPT is a joke by powers, mainly USA, to allow themselves to have nukes but make all other nations incapable of owning them
> I really wonder what the presidents of countries were smoking or how much they were bribed when they signed the NPT, agreeing not to be nuclear-armed and recognizing these 5 countries as the sole nuclear powers of the world
> Why should they have nukes and we shouldn't? We are not inferior to them, why should they have them and we don't
> Arab countries will never ever be equal with Israel in any negotiations about whatever subjects as long as Israel has nuclear capability to flatten the middle east and Arabs don't even have a single atomic bomb. Maybe if the Arab countries have good leaders in the future, they can withdraw from NPT together and start actually developing nukes. Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries should use their oil as a pressurizing card.



*
Most of the leaders of the third world leaders are charlatans posing as leaders, they are groomed and installed by the zionists and their lovers.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nirreich

Skorpian said:


> They won't deal with it, because simply NPT is a joke by powers, mainly USA, to allow themselves to have nukes but make all other nations incapable of owning them
> I really wonder what the presidents of countries were smoking or how much they were bribed when they signed the NPT, agreeing not to be nuclear-armed and recognizing these 5 countries as the sole nuclear powers of the world
> Why should they have nukes and we shouldn't? We are not inferior to them, why should they have them and we don't
> Arab countries will never ever be equal with Israel in any negotiations about whatever subjects as long as Israel has nuclear capability to flatten the middle east and Arabs don't even have a single atomic bomb. Maybe if the Arab countries have good leaders in the future, they can withdraw from NPT together and start actually developing nukes. Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries should use their oil as a pressurizing card.



The NPT is an important international tool in the way toward the objective of a world free of nuclear weapons.

I hope that Israel will be able to sign the NPT soon, when lasting peace will eventually be a permanent situation in the Middle East.


----------



## Kompromat

> press release
> 
> May 22, 2012, 1:20 p.m. EDT
> 
> *Israel's Nuclear Whistle Blower's June 6 Appeal Seeking Revocation of Citizenship as the Way to Freedom from Israel*
> 
> JERUSALEM, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Eileen Fleming, author, reporter and now a candidate for US House of Representatives from Florida, is seeking to pass the torch she picked up in June 2005, when she began documenting the ongoing saga of Mordechai Vanunu, Israel's Nuclear Whistle Blower.
> 
> In 1987, Vanunu was convicted of espionage and treason. Fleming contends he was only guilty of telling the truth regarding Israel's 7-story underground WMD Facility at Dimona in the Negev Valley.
> 
> The court hearing for Vanunu's latest Appeal is also the first case to be brought under Israel's Citizenship Revocation Law, which allows the courts to strip Israelis of citizenship if they have been convicted of espionage or treason:
> 
> Vanunu Mordechai asking ,CANCEL,Revoking my Citizenship-MAY 5-2011.
> 
> The restrictions that have held Vanunu captive since he emerged from 18 years in a windowless tomb sized cell on 21 April 2004 come from the Emergency Defense Regulations, which were implemented by Britain against Palestinians and Jews after World War II.
> 
> After WW II, Attorney and Israeli Minister Of Justice, Yaccov Shapiro, described the Regulations as "unparalleled in any civilized country: there were no such laws in Nazi Germany."
> 
> When Fleming asked Vanunu, "If the British Mandate has expired why not the British Mandate's Emergency Defense Regulations?"
> 
> Vanunu replied, "The reason given is security but it is because Israel is not a democracy unless you are a Jew. This administration tells me I am not allowed to speak to foreigners, the Media, and the world. But I do because that is how I prove my true humanity to the world. My freedom of speech trial began January 25, 2006 for speaking to the media, the same day as the Palestinian elections...When I decided to expose Israel's nuclear weapons I acted out of conscience and to warn the world to prevent a nuclear holocaust."
> 
> In April 1999, thirty-six members of the US House of Representatives signed a letter calling for Mordechai Vanunu's release from prison because they believed "we have a duty to stand up for men and women like Mordechai Vanunu who dare to articulate a brighter vision for humanity."
> 
> Fleming agrees and adds, "The Media's duty is to seek the truth and report it."
> 
> Contact Eileen +1-352-242-1919, eileenflemingforhouse@gmail.com, or @ Vote Eileen Fleming - House of Representatives
> 
> Vanunu can be reached through his sites: http://vanunu.com/http :// vanunuvmjc - YouTube
> 
> SOURCE Eileen Fleming
> 
> Copyright (C) 2012 PR Newswire. All rights reserved



Israel's Nuclear Whistle Blower's June 6 Appeal Seeking Revocation of Citizenship as the Way to Freedom from Israel - MarketWatch


----------



## Kompromat

* THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES: ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS*

by

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army


THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES:
ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers

Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College

Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama


The Third Temple's Holy Of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

September 1999

The Counterproliferation Papers Series was established by the USAF Counterproliferation Center to provide information and analysis to U.S. national security policy-makers and USAF officers to assist them in countering the threat posed by adversaries equipped with weapons of mass destruction. Copies of papers in this series are available from the USAF Counterproliferation Center, 325 Chennault Circle, Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427. The fax number is (334) 953-7538; phone (334) 953-7538.

Counterproliferation Paper No. 2
USAF Counterproliferation Center
Air War College

Air University
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 36112-6427

The internet address for the USAF Counterproliferation Center is:
USAF Counterproliferation Center

Contents:

Page

Disclaimer i

The Author ii

Acknowledgments iii

Abstract iv

I. Introduction 1

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation 3

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project Through to Completion 9

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb Up the Basement Stairs 15

Appendix: Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal 23

Notes 25

Disclaimer

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

The Author

Colonel Warner D. Rocky Farr, Medical Corps, Master Flight Surgeon, U.S. Army, graduated from the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama before becoming the Command Surgeon, U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He also serves as the Surgeon for the U.S. Army Special Forces Command, U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, and the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. With thirty-three years of military service, he holds an Associate of Arts from the State University of New York, Bachelor of Science from Northeast Louisiana University, Doctor of Medicine from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Masters of Public Health from the University of Texas, and has completed medical residencies in aerospace medicine, and anatomic and clinical pathology. He is the only army officer to be board certified in these three specialties. Solo qualified in the TH-55A Army helicopter, he received flight training in the T-37 and T-38 aircraft as part of his USAF School of Aerospace Medicine residency.

Colonel Farr was a Master Sergeant Special Forces medic prior to receiving a direct commission to second lieutenant. He is now the senior Special Forces medical officer in the U.S. Army with prior assignments in the 5th, 7th, and 10th Special Forces Groups (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, in Vietnam, the United States, and Germany. He has advised the 12th and 20th Special Forces Groups (Airborne) in the reserves and national guard, served as Division Surgeon, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry), and as the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Army Aeromedical Center, Fort Rucker, Alabama.

* Acknowledgments*

I would like to acknowledge the assistance, guidance and encouragement from my Air War College (AWC) faculty research advisor, Dr. Andrew Terrill, instructor of the Air War College Arab-Israeli Wars course. Thanks are also due to the great aid of the Air University librarians. The author is also indebted to Captain J. R. Saunders, USN and Colonel Robert Sutton, USAF. Who also offered helpful suggestions.

* Abstract*

This paper is a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program drawn from a review of unclassified sources. Israel began its search for nuclear weapons at the inception of the state in 1948. As payment for Israeli participation in the Suez Crisis of 1956, France provided nuclear expertise and constructed a reactor complex for Israel at Dimona capable of large-scale plutonium production and reprocessing. The United States discovered the facility by 1958 and it was a subject of continual discussions between American presidents and Israeli prime ministers. Israel used delay and deception to at first keep the United States at bay, and later used the nuclear option as a bargaining chip for a consistent American conventional arms supply. After French disengagement in the early 1960s, Israel progressed on its own, including through several covert operations, to project completion. Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons. Israel has most probably conducted several nuclear bomb tests. They have continued to modernize and vertically proliferate and are now one of the world's larger nuclear powers. Using bomb in the basement nuclear opacity, Israel has been able to use its arsenal as a deterrent to the Arab world while not technically violating American nonproliferation requirements.

The Third Temple's Holy of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr

I. Introduction

This is the end of the Third Temple.

- Attributed to Moshe Dayan

during the Yom Kippur War1

As Zionists in Palestine watched World War II from their distant sideshow, what lessons were learned? The soldiers of the Empire of Japan vowed on their emperor's sacred throne to fight to the death and not face the inevitability of an American victory. Many Jews wondered if the Arabs would try to push them into the Mediterranean Sea. After the devastating American nuclear attack on Japan, the soldier leaders of the empire reevaluated their fight to the death position. Did the bomb give the Japanese permission to surrender and live? It obviously played a military role, a political role, and a peacemaking role. How close was the mindset of the Samurai culture to the Islamic culture? Did David Ben-Gurion take note and wonder if the same would work for Israel?2 Could Israel find the ultimate deterrent that would convince her opponents that they could never, ever succeed? Was Israel's ability to cause a modern holocaust the best way to guarantee never having another one?

The use of unconventional weapons in the Middle East is not new. The British had used chemical artillery shells against the Turks at the second battle of Gaza in 1917. They continued chemical shelling against the Shiites in Iraq in 1920 and used aerial chemicals in the 1920s and 1930s in Iraq.3

Israel's involvement with nuclear technology starts at the founding of the state in 1948. Many talented Jewish scientists immigrated to Palestine during the thirties and forties, in particular, Ernst David Bergmann. He would become the director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission and the founder of Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Bergmann, a close friend and advisor of Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, counseled that nuclear energy could compensate for Israel's poor natural resources and small pool of military manpower. He pointed out that there was just one nuclear energy, not two, suggesting nuclear weapons were part of the plan.4 As early as 1948, Israeli scientists actively explored the Negev Desert for uranium deposits on orders from the Israeli Ministry of Defense. By 1950, they found low-grade deposits near Beersheba and Sidon and worked on a low power method of heavy water production.5

The newly created Weizmann Institute of Science actively supported nuclear research by 1949, with Dr. Bergmann heading the chemistry division. Promising students went overseas to study nuclear engineering and physics at Israeli government expense. Israel secretly founded its own Atomic Energy Commission in 1952 and placed it under the control of the Defense Ministry.6 The foundations of a nuclear program were beginning to develop.

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation

It has always been our intention to develop a nuclear potential.

- Ephraim Katzir7

In 1949, Francis Perrin, a member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, nuclear physicist, and friend of Dr. Bergmann visited the Weizmann Institute. He invited Israeli scientists to the new French nuclear research facility at Saclay. A joint research effort was subsequently set up between the two nations. Perrin publicly stated in 1986 that French scientists working in America on the Manhattan Project and in Canada during World War II were told they could use their knowledge in France provided they kept it a secret.8 Perrin reportedly provided nuclear data to Israel on the same basis.9 One Israeli scientist worked at the U.S. Los Alamos National Laboratory and may have directly brought expertise home.10

After the Second World War, France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before World War II, but had fallen far behind the U.S., the U.S.S.R., the United Kingdom, and even Canada. Israel and France were at a similar level of expertise after the war, and Israeli scientists could make significant contributions to the French effort. Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties. Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule.11 France profited from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment.12 In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, France and Israel had close relations in many areas. France was Israel's principal arms supplier, and as instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, Israel provided valuable intelligence obtained from contacts with sephardic Jews in those countries.

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.13 Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.14

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai. 

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.15 Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.16 The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.17 Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.18

Why was France so eager to help Israel? DeMollet and then de Gaulle had a place for Israel within their strategic vision. A nuclear Israel could be a counterforce against Egypt in France's fight in Algeria. Egypt was openly aiding the rebel forces there. France also wanted to obtain the bomb itself. The United States had embargoed certain nuclear enabling computer technology from France. Israel could get the technology from America and pass it through to France. The U.S. furnished Israel heavy water, under the Atoms for Peace program, for the small research reactor at Soreq. France could use this heavy water. Since France was some years away from nuclear testing and success, Israeli science was an insurance policy in case of technical problems in France's own program.19 The Israeli intelligence community's knowledge of past French (especially Vichy) anti-Semitic transgressions and the continued presence of former Nazi collaborators in French intelligence provided the Israelis with some blackmail opportunities.20 The cooperation was so close that Israel worked with France on the preproduction design of early Mirage jet aircraft, designed to be capable of delivering nuclear bombs.21

French experts secretly built the Israeli reactor underground at Dimona, in the Negev desert of southern Israel near Beersheba. Hundreds of French engineers and technicians filled Beersheba, the biggest town in the Negev. Many of the same contractors who built Marcoule were involved. SON (a French firm) built the plutonium separation plants in both France and Israel. The ground was broken for the EL-102 reactor (as it was known to France) in early 1958. 

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted. On 2 December 1960, before Israel could make announcements, the U.S. State Department issued a statement that Israel had a secret nuclear installation. By 16 December, this became public knowledge with its appearance in the New York Times. On 21 December, Ben-Gurion announced that Israel was building a 24-megawatt reactor for peaceful purposes.22

Over the next year, relations between the U.S. and Israel became strained over the Dimona reactor. The U.S. accepted Israel's assertions at face value publicly, but exerted pressure privately. Although Israel allowed a cursory inspection by well known American physicists Eugene Wigner and I. I. Rabi, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion consistently refused to allow regular international inspections. The final resolution between the U.S. and Israel was a commitment from Israel to use the facility for peaceful purposes, and to admit an U.S. inspection team twice a year. These inspections began in 1962 and continued until 1969. Inspectors saw only the above ground part of the buildings, not the many levels underground and the visit frequency was never more than once a year. The above ground areas had simulated control rooms, and access to the underground areas was kept hidden while the inspectors were present. Elevators leading to the secret underground plutonium reprocessing plant were actually bricked over.23 Much of the information on these inspections and the political maneuvering around it has just been declassified.24

One interpretation of Ben-Gurion's peaceful purposes pledge given to America is that he interpreted it to mean that nuclear weapon development was not excluded if used strictly for defensive, and not offensive purposes. Israel's security position in the late fifties and early sixties was far more precarious than now. After three wars, with a robust domestic arms industry and a reliable defense supply line from the U.S., Israel felt much more secure. During the fifties and early sixties a number of attempts by Israel to obtain security guarantees from the U.S. to place Israel under the U.S. nuclear umbrella like NATO or Japan, were unsuccessful. If the U.S. had conducted a forward-looking policy to restrain Israel's proliferation, along with a sure defense agreement, we could have prevented the development of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

One common discussion in the literature concerns testing of Israeli nuclear devices. In the early phases, the amount of collaboration between the French and Israeli nuclear weapons design programs made testing unnecessary. In addition, although their main efforts were with plutonium, the Israelis may have amassed enough uranium for gun-assembled type bombs which, like the Hiroshima bomb, require no testing. One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not onesuch was the depth of collaboration.25 There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.26 Israel also supplied essential technology and hardware.27 The French reportedly shipped reprocessed plutonium back to Israel as part of their repayment for Israeli scientific help.

However, this constant, decade long, French cooperation and support was soon to end and Israel would have to go it alone.

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project to Completion

To act in such a way that the Jews who died in the gas chambers would be the last Jews to die without defending themselves.

- Golda Meir28

Israel would soon need its own, independent, capabilities to complete its nuclear program. Only five countries had facilities for uranium enrichment: the United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, France, and China. The Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, or NUMEC, in Apollo, Pennsylvania was a small fuel rod fabrication plant. In 1965, the U.S. government accused Dr. Zalman Shapiro, the corporation president, of losing 200 pounds of highly enriched uranium. Although investigated by the Atomic Energy Commission, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other government agencies and inquiring reporters, no answers were available in what was termed the Apollo Affair.29 Many remain convinced that the Israelis received 200 pounds of enriched uranium sometime before 1965.30 One source links Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad agent and later the handler of spy Jonathan Pollard, with NUMEC.31 In the 1990s when the NUMEC plant was disassembled, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission found over 100 kilograms of plutonium in the structural components of the contaminated plant, casting doubt on 200 pounds going to Israel.32

The joint venture with France gave Israel several ingredients for nuclear weapons construction: a production reactor, a factory to extract plutonium from the spent fuel, and the design. In 1962, the Dimona reactor went critical; the French resumed work on the underground plutonium reprocessing plant, and completed it in 1964 or 1965. The acquisition of this reactor and related technologies was clearly intended for military purposes from the outset (not dual-use), as the reactor has no other function. The security at Dimona (officially the Negev Nuclear Research Center) was particularly stringent. For straying into Dimona's airspace, the Israelis shot down one of their own Mirage fighters during the Six-Day War. The Israelis also shot down a Libyan airliner with 104 passengers, in 1973, which had strayed over the Sinai.33 There is little doubt that some time in the late sixties Israel became the sixth nation to manufacture nuclear weapons. Other things they needed were extra uranium and extra heavy water to run the reactor at a higher rate. Norway, France, and the United States provided the heavy water and Operation Plumbat provided the uranium.

After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.34 Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums Plumbat, which means lead, hence Operation Plumbat.35 The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.36 Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.37

Norway sold 20 tons of heavy water to Israel in 1959 for use in an experimental power reactor. Norway insisted on the right to inspect the heavy water for 32 years, but did so only once, in April 1961, while it was still in storage barrels at Dimona. Israel simply promised that the heavy water was for peaceful purposes. In addition, quantities much more than what would be required for the peaceful purpose reactors were imported. Norway either colluded or at the least was very slow to ask to inspect as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) rules required.38 Norway and Israel concluded an agreement in 1990 for Israel to sell back 10.5 tons of the heavy water to Norway. Recent calculations reveal that Israel has used two tons and will retain eight tons more.39

Author Seymour Hersh, writing in the Samson Option says Prime Minister Levi Eshkol delayed starting weapons production even after Dimona was finished.40 The reactor operated and the plutonium collected, but remained unseparated. The first extraction of plutonium probably occurred in late 1965. By 1966, enough plutonium was on hand to develop a weapon in time for the Six-Day War in 1967. Some type of non-nuclear test, perhaps a zero yield or implosion test, occurred on November 2, 1966. After this time, considerable collaboration between Israel and South Africa developed and continued through the 1970s and 1980s. South Africa became Israel's primary supplier of uranium for Dimona. A Center for Nonproliferation Studies report lists four separate Israel-South Africa clandestine nuclear deals. Three concerned yellowcake and one was tritium.41 Other sources of yellowcake may have included Portugal.42

Egypt attempted unsuccessfully to obtain nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union both before and after the Six-Day War. President Nasser received from the Soviet Union a questionable nuclear guarantee instead and declared that Egypt would develop its own nuclear program.43 His rhetoric of 1965 and 1966 about preventive war and Israeli nuclear weapons coupled with overflights of the Dimona rector contributed to the tensions that led to war. The Egyptian Air Force claims to have first overflown Dimona and recognized the existence of a nuclear reactor in 1965.44 Of the 50 American HAWK antiaircraft missiles in Israeli hands, half ringed Dimona by 1965.45 Israel considered the Egyptian overflights of May 16, 1967 as possible pre-strike reconnaissance. One source lists such Egyptian overflights, along with United Nations peacekeeper withdrawal and Egyptian troop movements into the Sinai, as one of the three tripwires which would drive Israel to war.46 There was an Egyptian military plan to attack Dimona at the start of any war but Nasser vetoed it.47 He believed Israel would have the bomb in 1968.48 Israel assembled two nuclear bombs and ten days later went to war.49 Nasser's plan, if he had one, may have been to gain and consolidate territorial gains before Israel had a nuclear option.50 He was two weeks too late.

The Israelis aggressively pursued an aircraft delivery system from the United States. President Johnson was less emphatic about nonproliferation than President Kennedy-or perhaps had more pressing concerns, such as Vietnam. He had a long history of both Jewish friends and pressing political contributors coupled with some first hand experience of the Holocaust, having toured concentration camps at the end of World War II.51 Israel pressed him hard for aircraft (A-4E Skyhawks initially and F-4E Phantoms later) and obtained agreement in 1966 under the condition that the aircraft would not be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The State Department attempted to link the aircraft purchases to continued inspection visits. President Johnson overruled the State Department concerning Dimona inspections.52 Although denied at the time, America delivered the F-4Es, on September 5, 1969, with nuclear capable hardware intact.53

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968, putting the plutonium separation plant into full operation. Israel began producing three to five bombs a year. The book Critical Mass asserts that Israel had two bombs in 1967, and that Prime Minister Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during the Six-Day War.54 Avner Cohen in his recent book, Israel and the Bomb, agrees that Israel had a deliverable nuclear capability in the 1967 war. He quotes Munya Mardor, leader of Rafael, the Armament Development Authority, and other unnamed sources, that Israel cobbled together two deliverable devices.55

Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the Samson Option of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.56

In 1971, Israel began purchasing krytrons, ultra high-speed electronic switching tubes that are dual-use," having both industrial and nuclear weapons applications as detonators. In the 1980s, the United States charged an American, Richard Smith (or Smyth), with smuggling 810 krytrons to Israel.57 He vanished before trial and reportedly lives outside Tel Aviv. The Israelis apologized for the action saying that the krytrons were for medical research.58 Israel returned 469 of the krytrons but the rest, they declared, had been destroyed in testing conventional weapons. Some believe they went to South Africa.59 Smyth has also been reported to have been involved in a 1972 smuggling operation to obtain solid rocket fuel binder compounds for the Jericho II missile and guidance component hardware.60 Observers point to the Jericho missile itself as proof of a nuclear capability as it is not suited to the delivery of conventional munitions.61

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that this is the end of the third temple, referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. Temple was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her kitchen cabinet made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.62

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October. The U.S. decided to open an aerial resupply pipeline to Israel, and Israeli aircraft began picking up supplies that day. Although stockpile depletion remained a concern, the military situation stabilized on October 8th and 9th as Israeli reserves poured into the battle and averted disaster. Well before significant American resupply had reached Israeli forces, the Israelis counterattacked and turned the tide on both fronts. 

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.63 Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.64

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.65 There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to going nuclear.66

A similar Soviet pipeline to the Arabs, equally robust, may or may not have included a ship with nuclear weapons on it, detected from nuclear trace emissions and shadowed by the Americans from the Dardanelles. The Israelis believe that the Soviets discovered Israeli nuclear preparations from COSMOS satellite photographs and decided to equalize the odds.67 The Soviet ship arrived in Alexandria on either 18 or 23 October (sources disagree), and remained, without unloading, until November 1973. The ship may have represented a Soviet guarantee to the Arab combatants to neutralize the Israeli nuclear option.68 While some others dismiss the story completely, the best-written review article concludes that the answer is obscure. Soviet premier Leonid Brezhnev threatened, on 24 October, to airlift Soviet airborne troops to reinforce the Egyptians cut off on the eastern side of the Suez Canal and put seven Soviet airborne divisions on alert.69 Recent evidence indicates that the Soviets sent nuclear missile submarines also.70 Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine claimed that the two Soviet SCUD brigades deployed in Egypt each had a nuclear warhead. American satellite photos seemed to confirm this. The U.S. passed to Israel images of trucks, of the type used to transport nuclear warheads, parked near the launchers.71 President Nixon's response was to bring the U.S. to worldwide nuclear alert the next day, whereupon Israel went to nuclear alert a third time.72 This sudden crisis quickly faded as Prime Minister Meir agreed to a cease-fire, relieving the pressure on the Egyptian Third Army.

Shimon Peres had argued for a pre-war nuclear demonstration to deter the Arabs. Arab strategies and war aims in 1967 may have been restricted because of a fear of the Israeli bomb in the basement, the undeclared nuclear option. The Egyptians planned to capture an eastern strip next to the Suez Canal and then hold. The Syrians did not aggressively commit more forces to battle or attempt to drive through the 1948 Jordan River border to the Israeli center. Both countries seemed not to violate Israel proper and avoided triggering one of the unstated Israeli reasons to employ nuclear weapons.73 Others discount any Arab planning based on nuclear capabilities.74 Peres also credits Dimona with bringing Anwar Sadat to Jerusalem to make peace.75 This position was seemingly confirmed by Sadat in a private conversation with Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman.76

At the end of the Yom Kippur War (a nation shaking experience), Israel has her nuclear arsenal fully functional and tested by a deployment. The arsenal, still opaque and unspoken, was no longer a secret, especially to the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb up the Basement Stairs

Never Again!

- Reportedly welded on the
first Israeli nuclear bomb77 

Shortly after the 1973 war, Israel allegedly fielded considerable nuclear artillery consisting of American 175 mm and 203 mm self-propelled artillery pieces, capable of firing nuclear shells. If true, this shows that Dimona had rapidly solved the problems of designing smaller weapons since the crude 1967 devices. If true, these low yield, tactical nuclear artillery rounds could reach at least 25 miles. The Israeli Defense Force did have three battalions of the 175mm artillery (36 tubes), reportedly with 108 nuclear shells and more for the 203mm tubes. Some sources describe a program to extend the range to 45 miles. They may have offered the South Africans these low yield, miniaturized, shells described as, the best stuff we got.78 By 1976, according to one unclassified source, the Central Intelligence Agency believed that the Israelis were using plutonium from Dimona and had 10 to 20 nuclear weapons available.79

In 1972, two Israeli scientists, Isaiah Nebenzahl and Menacehm Levin, developed a cheaper, faster uranium enrichment process. It used a laser beam for isotope separation. It could reportedly enrich seven grams of Uranium 235 sixty percent in one day.80 Sources later reported that Israel was using both centrifuges and lasers to enrich uranium.81

Questions remained regarding full-scale nuclear weapons tests. Primitive gun assembled type devices need no testing. Researchers can test non-nuclear components of other types separately and use extensive computer simulations. Israel received data from the 1960 French tests, and one source concludes that Israel accessed information from U.S. tests conducted in the 1950s and early 1960s. This may have included both boosted and thermonuclear weapons data.82 Underground testing in a hollowed out cavern is difficult to detect. A West Germany Army Magazine, Wehrtechnik, in June 1976, claimed that Western reports documented a 1963 underground test in the Negev. Other reports show a test at Al-Naqab, Negev in October 1966.83

A bright flash in the south Indian Ocean, observed by an American satellite on 22 September 1979, is widely believed to be a South Africa-Israel joint nuclear test. It was, according to some, the third test of a neutron bomb. The first two were hidden in clouds to fool the satellite and the third was an accidentthe weather cleared.84 Experts differ on these possible tests. Several writers report that the scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory believed it to have been a nuclear explosion while a presidential panel decided otherwise.85 President Carter was just entering the Iran hostage nightmare and may have easily decided not to alter 30 years of looking the other way.86 The explosion was almost certainly an Israeli bomb, tested at the invitation of the South Africans. It was more advanced than the gun type bombs developed by the South Africans.87 One report claims it was a test of a nuclear artillery shell.88 A 1997 Israeli newspaper quoted South African deputy foreign minister, Aziz Pahad, as confirming it was an Israeli test with South African logistical support.89

Controversy over possible nuclear testing continues to this day. In June 1998, a Member of the Knesset accused the government of an underground test near Eilat on May 28, 1998. Egyptian nuclear experts had made similar charges. The Israeli government hotly denied the claims.90

Not only were the Israelis interested in American nuclear weapons development data, they were interested in targeting data from U.S. intelligence. Israel discovered that they were on the Soviet target list. American-born Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard obtained satellite-imaging data of the Soviet Union, allowing Israel to target accurately Soviet cities. This showed Israel's intention to use its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent political lever, or retaliatory capability against the Soviet Union itself. Israel also used American satellite imagery to plan the 7 June 1981 attack on the Tammuz-1 reactor at Osiraq, Iraq. This daring attack, carried out by eight F-16s accompanied by six F-15s punched a hole in the concrete reactor dome before the reactor began operation (and just days before an Israeli election). It delivered 15 delay-fused 2000 pound bombs deep into the reactor structure (the 16th bomb hit a nearby hall). The blasts shredded the reactor and blew out the dome foundations, causing it to collapse on the rubble. This was the world's first attack on a nuclear reactor.91

Since 19 September 1988, Israel has worked on its own satellite recon- naissance system to decrease reliance on U.S. sources. On that day, they launched the Offeq-1 satellite on the Shavit booster, a system closely related to the Jericho-II missile. They launched the satellite to the west away from the Arabs and against the earth's rotation, requiring even more thrust. The Jericho-II missile is capable of sending a one ton nuclear payload 5,000 kilometers. Offeq-2 went up on 3 April 1990. The launch of the Offeq-3 failed on its first attempt on 15 September 1994, but was successful 5 April 1995.92

Mordechai Vanunu provided the best look at the Israeli nuclear arsenal in 1985 complete with photographs.93 A technician from Dimona who lost his job, Vanunu secretly took photographs, immigrated to Australia and published some of his material in the London Sunday Times. He was subsequently kidnapped by Israeli agents, tried and imprisoned. His data shows a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.94 The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs show a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing.95 He revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium. These facts have increased the estimates of total Israeli nuclear stockpiles (see Appendix A).96 In the words of one American, [the Israelis] can do anything we or the Soviets can do.97 Vanunu not only made the technical details of the Israeli program and stockpile public but in his wake, Israeli began veiled official acknowledgement of the potent Israeli nuclear deterrent. They began bringing the bomb up the basement stairs if not out of the basement.

Israel went on full-scale nuclear alert again on the first day of Desert Storm, 18 January 1991. Seven SCUD missiles were fired against the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa by Iraq (only two actually hit Tel Aviv and one hit Haifa). This alert lasted for the duration of the war, 43 days. Over the course of the war, Iraq launched around 40 missiles in 17 separate attacks at Israel. There was little loss of life: two killed directly, 11 indirectly, with many structures damaged and life disrupted.98 Several supposedly landed near Dimona, one of them a close miss.99 Threats of retaliation by the Shamir government if the Iraqis used chemical warheads were interpreted to mean that Israel intended to launch a nuclear strike if gas attacks occurred. One Israeli commentator recommended that Israel should signal Iraq that any Iraqi action against Israeli civilian populations, with or without gas, may leave Iraq without Baghdad.100 Shortly before the end of the war the Israelis tested a nuclear capable missile which prompted the United States into intensifying its SCUD hunting in western Iraq to prevent any Israeli response.101 The Israeli Air Force set up dummy SCUD sites in the Negev for pilots to practice onthey found it no easy task.102 American government concessions to Israel for not attacking (in addition to Israeli Patriot missile batteries) were:

Allowing Israel to designate 100 targets inside Iraq for the coalition to destroy,
Satellite downlink to increase warning time on the SCUD attacks (present and future),
Technical parity with Saudi jet fighters in perpetuity.103

All of this validated the nuclear arsenal in the minds of the Israelis. In particular the confirmed capability of Arab states without a border with Israel, the so-called second tier states, to reach out and touch Israel with ballistic missiles confirmed Israel's need for a robust first strike capability.104 Current military contacts between Israel and India, another nuclear power, bring up questions of nuclear cooperation.105 Pakistani sources have already voiced concerns over a possible joint Israeli-Indian attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities.106 A recent Parameters article speculated on Israel's willingness to furnish nuclear capabilities or assistance to certain states, such as Turkey.107 A retired Israeli Defense Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Amnon Shahak, has declared, all methods are acceptable in withholding nuclear capabilities from an Arab state.108

As the Israeli bomb comes out of the basement, open discussion, even in Israel, is occurring on why the Israelis feel they need an arsenal not used in at least two if not three wars. Avner Cohen states: It [Israel] must be in a position to threaten another Hiroshima to prevent another holocaust.109 In July 1998 Shimon Peres was quoted in the Jordan Times as saying, We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo,110 referring to the peace process.

One list of current reasons for an Israeli nuclear capability is:

To deter a large conventional attack,
To deter all levels of unconventional (chemical, biological, nuclear) attacks,
To preempt enemy nuclear attacks,
To support conventional preemption against enemy nuclear assets,
To support conventional preemption against enemy non-nuclear (conventional, chemical, biological) assets,
For nuclear warfighting,
The Samson Option (last resort destruction).111

The most alarming of these is the nuclear warfighting. The Israelis have developed, by several accounts, low yield neutron bombs able to destroy troops with minimal damage to property.112 In 1990, during the Second Gulf War, an Israeli reserve major general recommended to America that it use non-contaminating tactical nuclear weapons against Iraq.113 Some have speculated that the Israelis will update their nuclear arsenal to micronukes and tinynukes which would be very useful to attack point targets and other tactical or barrier (mining) uses.114 These would be very useful for hardened deeply buried command and control facilities and for airfield destruction without exposing Israeli pilots to combat.115 Authors have made the point that Israeli professional military schools do not teach nuclear tactics and would not use them in the close quarters of Israel. Many Israeli officers have attended American military schools where they learned tactical use in crowded Europe.116

However, Jane's Intelligence Review has recently reported an Israeli review of nuclear strategy with a shift from tactical nuclear warheads to long range missiles.117 Israel always has favored the long reach, whether to Argentina for Adolph Eichmann, to Iraq to strike a reactor, Entebbe for hostages, Tunisia to hit the PLO, or by targeting the Soviet Union's cities. An esteemed Israeli military author has speculated that Israel is pursuing an R&D program to provide MIRVs (multiple independent reentry vehicles) on their missiles.118

The government of Israel recently ordered three German Dolphin Class 800 submarine, to be delivered in late 1999. Israel will then have a second strike capability with nuclear cruise missiles, and this capability could well change the nuclear arms race in the Middle East.119 Israeli rhetoric on the new submarines labels them national deterrent assets. Projected capabilities include a submarine-launched nuclear missile with a 350-kilometer range.120 Israel has been working on sea launch capability for missiles since the 1960s.121 The first basing options for the new second-strike force of nuclear missile capable submarines include Oman, an Arab nation with unofficial Israeli relations, located strategically near Iran.122 A report indicates that the Israel Defense Ministry has formally gone to the government with a request to authorize a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was hit with first strike nuclear weapons. This report comes in the wake of a recent Iran Shihab-3 missile test and indications to Israel that Iran is two to three years from a nuclear warhead.123 Israeli statements stress that Iran's nuclear potential would be problem to all and would require American leadership, with serious participation of the G-7 . . . .124

A recent study highlighted Israel's extreme vulnerability to a first strike and an accompanying vulnerability even to a false alarm.125 Syria's entire defense against Israel seems to rest on chemical weapons and warheads.126 One scenario involves Syria making a quick incursion into the Golan and then threatening chemical strikes, perhaps with a new, more lethal (protective-mask-penetrable) Russian nerve gas if Israel resists.127 Their use would drive Israel to nuclear use. Israeli development of an anti- missile defense, the Arrow, a fully fielded (30-50128) Jericho II ballistic missile, and the soon-to-arrive strategic submarine force, seems to have produced a coming change in defense force structure. The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, quotes the Israeli Chief of Staff discussing the establishment of a strategic command to . . . prepare an adequate response to the long term threats. . . 129

The 1994 accord with Jordan, allowing limited Israeli military presence in Jordanian skies, could make the flying distance to several potential adversaries considerably shorter.130 Israel is concerned about Iran's desire to obtain nuclear weapons and become a regional leader, coupled with large numbers of Shiite ******* in southern Lebanon. The Israeli Air Force commanding general issued a statement saying Israel would consider an attack if any country gets close to achieving a nuclear capability.131 The Israelis are obviously considering actions capable of stopping such programs and are buying aircraft such as the F-15I with sufficient operational range. At the first delivery of these 4,000 kilometer range fighters, the Israeli comment was, the aircraft would help counter a growing nuclear threat.132 They consider such regional nation nuclear programs to be a sufficient cause for war. Their record of accomplishment is clear: having hit the early Iraqi nuclear effort, they feel vindicated by Desert Storm. They also feel that only the American and Israeli nuclear weapons kept Iraq's Saddam Hussein from using chemical or biological weapons against Israel.133

Israel, like Iran, has desires of regional power. The 1956 alliance with France and Britain might have been a first attempt at regional hegemony. Current debate in the Israeli press considers offering Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and perhaps Syria (after a peace agreement) an Israeli nuclear umbrella of protection.134 A nuclear Iran or Iraq might use its nuclear weapons to protect some states in the region, threaten others, and attempt to control oil prices.135

Another speculative area concerns Israeli nuclear security and possible misuse. What is the chain of decision and control of Israel's weapons? How susceptible are they to misuse or theft? With no open, frank, public debate on nuclear issues, there has accordingly been no debate or information on existing safeguards. This has led to accusations of monolithic views and sinister intentions.1360 Would a right wing military government decide to employ nuclear weapons recklessly? Ariel Sharon, an outspoken proponent of Greater Israel was quoted as saying, Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.137 Could the Gush Emunim, a right wing religious organization, or others, hijack a nuclear device to liberate the Temple Mount for the building of the third temple? Chances are small but could increase as radicals decry the peace process.138 A 1997 article reviewing the Israeli Defense Force repeatedly stressed the possibilities of, and the need to guard against, a religious, right wing military coup, especially as the proportion of religious in the military increases.139

Israel is a nation with a state religion, but its top leaders are not religious Jews. The intricacies of Jewish religious politics and rabbinical law do affect their politics and decision processes. In Jewish law, there are two types of war, one obligatory and mandatory (milkhemet mitzvah) and the one authorized but optional (milkhemet reshut).140 The labeling of Prime Minister Begin's Peace for Galilee operation as a milchemet brera (war of choice) was one of the factors causing it to lose support.141 Interpretation of Jewish law concerning nuclear weapons does not permit their use for mutual assured destruction. However, it does allow possession and threatening their use, even if actual use is not justifiable under the law. Interpretations of the law allow tactical use on the battlefield, but only after warning the enemy and attempting to make peace. How much these intricacies affect Israeli nuclear strategy decisions is unknown.142

The secret nature of the Israeli nuclear program has hidden the increasing problems of the aging Dimona reactor and adverse worker health effects. Information is only now public as former workers sue the government. This issue is now linked to continued tritium production for the boosted anti-tank and anti-missile nuclear warheads that Israeli continues to need. Israel is attempting to obtain a new, more efficient, tritium production technology developed in India.143

One other purpose of Israeli nuclear weapons, not often stated, but obvious, is their use on the United States. America does not want Israel's nuclear profile raised.144 They have been used in the past to ensure America does not desert Israel under increased Arab, or oil embargo, pressure and have forced the United States to support Israeli diplomatically against the Soviet Union. Israel used their existence to guarantee a continuing supply of American conventional weapons, a policy likely to continue.145

Regardless of the true types and numbers (see Appendix A) of Israeli nuclear weapons, they have developed a sophisticated system, by myriad methods, and are a nuclear power to be reckoned with. Their nuclear ambiguity has served their purposes well but Israel is entering a different phase of visibility even as their nuclear capability is entering a new phase. This new visibility may not be in America's interest.146 Many are predicting the Israeli nuclear arsenal will become less useful out of the basement and possibly spur a regional arms race. If so, Israel has a 5-10 year lead time at present before mutual assured destruction, Middle East style, will set in. Would regional mutual second strike capability, easier to acquire than superpower mutual second strike capability, result in regional stability? Some think so.147 Current Israeli President Ezer Weizman has stated the nuclear issue is gaining momentum [and the] next war will not be conventional.148

Appendix A

Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal



Notes

1. Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy (New York: Random House, 1991), 223.

2. Aronson, Slomo and Brosh, Oded, The Politics and Strategy of Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East, the Opacity Theory, and Reality, 1960-1991-An Israeli Perspective (Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 1992), 20.

3. Karsh, Efraim, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 82.

4. Cohen, Avner, Israel and the Bomb (New York: Columbia University Press, 1998), 16.

5. Cordesman, Anthony, Perilous Prospects: The Peace Process and the Arab-Israeli Military Balance (Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1996), 118.

6. Pry, Peter, Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (Boulder, Colorado: Westview, 1984), 5-6.

7. Quoted in Weissman, Steve and Krosney, Herbert. The Islamic Bomb: The Nuclear Threat to Israel and the Middle East. (New York, New York: Times Books, 1981), 105.

8. Former Official Says France Helped Build Israel's Dimona Complex. Nucleonics Week October 16, 1986, 6.

9. Milhollin, Gary, Heavy Water Cheaters. Foreign Policy (1987-88): 101-102.

10. Cordesman, 1991, 127.

11. Federation of American Scientists, Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program. 10 December 1997, n.p. On-line. Internet, 27 October 1998. Available from http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Israel/Isrhist.html.

12. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in Israel (New Delhi: S. B. Nangia Books, 1996), 3.

13. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 48-49.

14. Bennett, Jeremy, The Suez Crisis. BBC Video. n.d. Videocassette and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi. Every Spy a Prince. The Complete History of Israel's Intelligence Community. (Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990), 63-69.

15. Weissman and Krosney, 112.

16. Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (London) Sunday Times No. 8,461, 5 October 1986, 1, 4-5.

17. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 57-59.

18. Peres, Shimon, Battling for Peace. A Memoir (New York, New York: Random House, 1995), 122.

19. Pry, 10.

20. Loftus, John and Aarons, Mark, The Secret War Against the Jews. How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People (New York, New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1994), 287-303.

21. Green, Stephen, Taking Sides. America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1984), 152.

22. Cohen, Avner, Most Favored Nation. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 51, no. 1 (January-February 1995): 44-53. 

23. Hersh, The Samson Option, 196.

24. See Cohen, Avner, Israel's Nuclear History: The Untold Kennedy-Eshkol Dimona Correspondence. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 159-194 and Cohen, Avner, Comp. Recently Declassified 1963 Correspondence between President Kennedy and Prime Ministers Ben-Gurion and Eshkol. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 195-207. Much of the documentation has been posted to http:\\www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/israel.

25. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit.,114-117

26. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 82-83.

27. Spector, Leonard S., The Undeclared Bomb (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Ballinger Publishers, 1988), 387 (n.22).

28. Quoted in Stevens, Elizabeth. Israel's Nuclear WeaponsA Case Study. 14 pages. On line. Internet, 23 October 1998. Available from
http://infomanage.com/nonproliferation/najournal/israelinucs.html.

29. Green, Taking Sides, 148-179 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 197-198.

30. Weissman and Krosney, 119-124.

31. Black, Ian and Morris, Benny, Israel's Secret Wars. A history of Israel's Intelligence Services (New York, New York: Grove Weidenfeld, 1991), 418-419.

32. Hersh, 257.

33. Green, Stephen, Living by the Sword: America and Israel in the Middle East, 1968-1987 (London: Faber, 1988), 63-80.

34. Cordesman, 1991, 120.

35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.

38. Milhollin, 100-119.

39. Stanghelle, Harold, Israel to sell back 10.5 tons. Arbeiderbladet, Oslo, Norway, 28 June 1990 in: Center for Nonproliferation Studies, Nuclear Developments, 28 June 1990, 34-35; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

40. Hersh, op. cit., 139.

41. Center for Nonproliferation Studies. Israeli Friends, ISIS Report, May 1994, 4; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

42. Abecasis, Rachel, Uranium reportedly offered to China, Israel. Radio Renascenca, Lisbon, 9 December 1992 quoted in Center for Nonproliferation, Proliferation Issues, 23 December, 1992, 25; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

43. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 231-232 and 256-257.

44. Nordeen, Lon O., Nicolle, David, Phoenix over the Nile (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institute Press, 1996), 192-193.

45. O'Balance, Edgar, The Third Arab-Israeli War (London: Faber and Faber, 1972), 54.

46. Brecher, Michael, Decision in Crisis. Israel, 1967 and 1973 (Berkley, California: University of California Press, 1980), 104, 230-231.

47. Cohen, Avner. Cairo, Dimona, and the June 1967 War. Middle East Journal 50, no. 2 (Spring 1996), 190-210.

48. Creveld, Martin van. The Sword and the Olive. A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force (New York, New York: Public Affairs, 1998), 174.

49. Burrows, William E. and Windrem, Robert, Critical Mass. The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1994), 282-283.

50. Aronson, Shlomo, Israel's Nuclear Options, ACIS Working Paper No. 7. Los Angeles, California: University of California Center for Arms Control and International Security, 1977, 3, and Sorenson, David S., Middle East Regional Studies-AY99, Air War College: Maxwell Air Force Base, AL, 542.

51. Hersh, op. cit., 126-128.

52. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 210-213.

53. Spector, Leonard S., Foreign-Supplied Combat Aircraft: Will They Drop the Third World Bomb? Journal of International Affairs 40, no. 1(1986): 145 (n. 5) and Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 18-19.

54. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280.

55. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 237.

56. Ibid., 273-274.

57. Milhollin, op. cit., 103-104.

58. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, Friend in Deed: Inside the U.S.-Israel Alliance (New York New York: Hyperion, 1994), 299.

59. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 464-465 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 304-305.

60. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 179.

61. Dowty, Alan. Israel and Nuclear Weapons. Midstream 22, no. 7 (November 1976), 8-9.

62. Hersh, op. cit., 217, 222-226, and Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

63. Green, op. cit., Living by the Sword, 90-99.

64. Loftus and Aarons, op. cit., 316-317.

65 Smith, Gerard C. and Cobban, Helena. A Blind Eye To Nuclear Proliferation. Foreign Affairs 68, no. 3(1989), 53-70.

66. Hersh, op. cit., 230-231.

67. O'Balance, Edgar, No Victor, No Vanquished. The Yom Kippur War (San Rafael, California: Presido Press, 1978), 175.

68. Ibid., 234-235 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 15-18. 

69. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 396 (n. 62); Garthoff, Raymond L., Détente and Confrontation: American-Soviet Relations from Nixon to Reagan (Washington, DC: The Brookings Institute, 1994), 426, n76 and Bandmann, Yona and Cordova, Yishai. The Soviet Nuclear Threat Towards the Close of the Yom Kippur War. Jerusalem Journal of International Relations 1980 5, no. 1, 107-9.

70. Cherkashin, Nikolai, On Moscow's Orders. Russian Life, 39, no. 10 (October 1996), 13-15.

71. Brownlow, Cecil. Soviets poise three-front global drive. Nuclear weapons in Egypt, artillery buildup at Guantanamo, Communist concentrations in Vietnam aimed at political gains. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 12-14; Holt, Robert. Soviet Power Play. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 7 and Gur-Arieh, Danny, A non-Conventional Look at Israel During '73 War. IsraelWire Tuesday, October 6, 1998 17, 23; on-line, Internet 20 November 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

72. Hersh, op. cit., 321-235.

73. Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 220-221.

74. Evron, Yair, Israel's Nuclear Dilemma (Ithaca, New York: Cornell Publishing, 1994), 62-74.

75. Cohen, Avner, Peres: Peacemaker, Nuclear Pioneer. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 52, no. 3 (May/June 1996), 16-17 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 11-12.

76. Karsh, op. cit., 86.

77. Quoted in Hersh, op. cit., 180 and Stevens, op. cit., 1-14.

78. Hersh, op. cit., 216, 276 and Kaku, Michio. Contingency Plans: Nuclear Weapons after the Cold War. In Altered States: A Reader in the New World Order, Bennis, Phyllis and Moushabeck, Michel, Eds. (New York, New York: 1993), 66.

79. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

80. Gillette, Robert, Uranium Enrichment: Rumors of Israeli Progress with Lasers. Science 183, no. 4130 (22 March 1974), 1172-1174.

81. Barnaby, Frank, The Invisible Bomb: The Nuclear Arms Race in the Middle East (London: I. B. Tauris, 1988), 25.

82. Israel: The Covert Connection. Frontline, PBS Network, May 16, 1989, quoted in Spector, Leonard S., and McDonough, Mark G., with Medeiros, Evan S., Tracking Nuclear Proliferation. A Guide in Maps and Charts, 1995 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1995).

83. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East: Dimensions and Responsibilities (Princeton, New Jersey: Kingston Press, 1984), 22-23.

84. Hersh, op. cit., 216.

85. Barnaby, Frank, Capping Israel's Nuclear Volcano, Between War and Peace. Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Karsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 98.

86. Hersh, op. cit., 271-275.

87. Nashif, op. cit., 32.

88. Gaffney, Mark, Dimona: The Third Temple? The Story Behind the Vanunu Revelation (Brattleboro, Vermont: Amana Books, 1989), 100-101.

89. Pedatzur, Re'uven, South African Statement On Nuclear Test Said to Serve Israel, Ha'aretz, 29 July 1997. On line: Internet, 22 November 1998 and Kelley, Robert. The Iraqi and South African Nuclear WôNuclear Abstracts," 1 March 1996, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, both available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

90. Was there a Nuclear Test near Eilat? IsraelWire, 16 June 1998, or on line Internet, 22 November, 1998, available from israelwire.com and Deputy Defense Minister Denies Israeli Nuclear Testing. Israeli Wire, June 18, 1998, or on-line. Internet, 13 October 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

91. McKinnon, Dan. Bullseye One Reactor. The Story of Israel's Bold Surprise Air Attack That Destroyed Iraqi's Nuclear Bomb Facility (Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing Ltd., 1987).

92. Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, Report on the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Moscow, 1993. Journal of Palestine Studies XXII, no. 4 (Summer 1993): 135-140; Creveld, Martin van, Nuclear Proliferation and the Future Of Conflict (New York: The Free Press, 1993), 105; and Clark, Philip. ôThird successful Israeli satellite launch. Jane's Intelligence Review 7, no. 6 (June 1995), 25-26.

93. Sunday Times, London, op. cit., 1,4-5.

94. Toscano, Louis, Triple Cross: Israel, the Atomic Bomb and the Man Who Spilled the Secrets (New York: Carol Publishing Group, 1990).

95. Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 134.

96. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 165-166.

97. Hersh, op. cit., 291.

98. Levran, Aharon, Israeli Strategy after Desert Storm: Lessons from the Second Gulf War (London: Frank Cass, 1997), 1-10.

99. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 278.

100. Cohen, Avner and Miller, Marvin, Nuclear Shadows in the Middle East: Prospects for Arms Control in the Wake of the Gulf Crisis (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1990), 10.

101. Aronson and Brosh, op. cit., 276.

102. Raviv and Melman, op. cit., 399.

103. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 297n and Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 321-322.

104. Levran, op. cit., 8-10.

105. Ahmar, Moonis, Pakistan and Israel: Distant Adversaries or Neighbors? Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, 1996, 20, no.1, 43-44.

106. Nuclear proliferation didn't start in 1998 . . .and not in Pakistan nor with Islam, Middle East Realities, or on-line, Internet, 21 September 1998, available from http://www.middleeast.org/1998_06_28.htm.

107. Garrity, Patrick J. The Next Nuclear Questions. Parameters, XXV, no. 4 (Winter 1995-96), 92-111.

108. Cohen, Eliezer. Israel's best defense: the First Full Story of the Israeli Air Force, (New York, New York: Random House, 1993), 495.

109. Cohen and Miller, op. cit., 18.

110. Before Meeting with King, Peres Claims Israel's Nuclear Arsenal was built for Peace, Jordan Times, July 14, 1998. Quoted in Sorenson, op. cit., 542.

111. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's Bomb in the Basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure', Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Harsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 113-133.

112. Hersh, op. cit., 319.

113. Amos, Deborah, Lines in the Sand: Desert Storm and the Remaking of the Arab World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), 105.

114. Dowler, Thomas W. and Howard II, Joseph H., Countering the threat of the well-armed tyrant: A modest proposal for small nuclear weapons, Strategic Review, XIX, no. 4 (Fall 1991), 34-40.

115. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's bomb in the basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure.'  In Karsh, Efraim, op. cit., Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 116.

116. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 265.

117. Hough, Harold, Israel reviews its nuclear deterrent, Jane's Intelligence Review 10, no.11 (November 1998), 11-13.

118. Creveld, op. cit., 1993, 105.

119. Burrows, and Windrem, op. cit., 311-312 and Israel begins test of nuclear missile submarines, The Irish Times, July 2, 1998, or on-line, Internet, 24 December 1998, available from http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/0702/wor13.html.

120. Melman, Yossi, Swimming with the Dolphins, Ha'aretz, Tuesday, June 9, 1998, and Report: Israel to get Subs with Nuclear Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, I July 3, 1998, 3 and Sorenson, op. cit., 543.

121. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 344-345, 422-423.

122. Shahak, Israel, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (London: Pluto Press, 1997), 72-73.

123. Davis, Douglas, Defense Officials Said Urging Nuclear Second-Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, 6 August 1998, 3; or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

124. Inbar, Efraim, Israel's security in a new international environment, in Karsh, Efraim, Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 41.

125. Hough, Harold, Could Israel's Nuclear Assets Survive a First Strike? Jane's Intelligence Review, September 1997, 407-410.

126. Terrill, W. Andrew, The Chemical Warfare Legacy of the Yemen War. Comparative Strategy, 10 (1991), 109-119.

127. Boyne, Sean, Across the Great Divide. Will Assad go for the Golan? Jane's Intelligence Review, 10, no. 4 (April 1998), 21-24 and Cordesman, 1996, op. cit., 254.

128. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 243.

129, Harel, Amos and Barzilai, Amnon, Mordechai says Arrow alone cannot protect against missiles, Ha'aretz, 13 January 1999, or on-line, Internet, 13 January 1999, available from http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/3_9.htm

130. Shahak, op. cit., 78-79.

131. Chubin, Shahram, Does Iran Want Nuclear Weapons? Survival 37, no. 1 (Spring 1995), 91-93.

132. O'Sullivan, Arich, New F-15I Warplanes Expand Israel's Reach, The Jerusalem Post, 19 January 1997, or on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from Israel News | Online Israeli News Covering Israel & The Jewish World - JPost.

133. Karsh, op. cit., 9.

134. Shahak, op. cit., 4-5.

135. Garrity, op. cit., 92-111.

136. Dowty, op. cit., 8.

137. Gaffney, op. cit., 165.

138. Ibid., 37-38 and Friedman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement (New York, New York: Random House, 1992), 132-52.

139. Blanche, Ed, Is the Myth Fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 1. Jane's Intelligence Review, 8, no. 12 (December 1996), 547-550 and Blanche, Ed. Is the myth fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 2, Jane's Intelligence Review 9, no. 1 (January 1997), 25-28.

140. Cohen, Stuart A., The Scroll or the Sword? Dilemmas of Religion and Military Service in Israel (Amsterdam, Netherlands: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1997), 11-24.

141. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 298.

142. Broyde, Michael J., Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition, or on-line, Internet, 20 November 1998, available from Jewish Law - Articles ("Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition").

143. Hough, Harold, op. cit., 1998, 11-12 and Berger, Julian, Court Fury At Israeli Reactor. Guardian, 13 October 1997, in Center for Nonproliferation, Nuclear Abstracts, 13 October 1997, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

144. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 252.

145. Valry, Nicholas, Israel's Silent Gamble with the Bomb, New Scientist (12 December 1974), 807-09.

146. Harden, Major James D., Israeli Nuclear Weapons and War in the Middle East, Master's Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA, December 1997.

147. Dowdy, op. cit., 20.

148. Aronson, Geoffrey, Hidden Agenda: US-Israeli Relations and the Nuclear Question, Middle East Journal, 46, no. 4 (Autumn 1992), 619-630.

149. Data from Time, 12 April 1976, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

150. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280 and Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 273-274.

151. Tahtinen, Dale R., The Arab-Israel Military Balance Today (Washington, DC: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, 1973), 34.

152. How Israel Got the Bomb. Time, 12 April 1976, 39.

153. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 302.

154. Kaku, op. cit., 66 and Hersh, op. cit., 216.

155. Valéry, op. cit., 807-09.

156. Data from CIA, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

157. Ottenberg, Michael, Estimating Israel's Nuclear Capabilities, Command, 30 (October 1994), 6-8. 

158. Pry, op. cit., 75.

159. Ibid., 111.

 160. Data from NBC Nightly News, quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104 and Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

161. Data from Vanunu quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104.

162. Harkavy, Robert E. After the Gulf War: The Future of the Israeli Nuclear Strategy, The Washington Quarterly (Summer 1991), 164.

163. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

164. Albright, David, Berkhout, Frans and Walker, William, Plutonium and Highly Enriched Uranium 1996. World Inventories, Capabilities, and Policies (New York: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute And Oxford University Press, 1997), 262-263.

165. Hough, Harold, Israel's Nuclear Infrastructure, Jane's Intelligence Review 6, no. 11 (November 1994), 508.

166. Ibid., 262-263.

167. Spector, and McDonough, with Medeiros, op. cit., 135.

168. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 283-284.

169. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 234.

170. Ibid., 234.

171. Ibid., 230, 243.

172. Brower, Kenneth S., A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East, Jane's Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.

173. Albright, Berkhout, and Walker, op. cit., 262-263.

USAF Counterproliferation Center

The USAF Counterproliferation Center was established in 1998 to provide education and research to the present and future leaders of the USAF, and thereby help them better prepare to counter the threat from weapons of mass destruction.

Barry R. Schneider, Director
USAF Counterproliferation Center
325 Chennault Circle
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427k

(334) 953-7538 (DSN (493-7538)

Email: Barry.Schneider@maxwell,af.mil

Israel's Nuclear Weapons

* THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES:
ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS*

by

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army


THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES:
ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers

Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College

Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama


The Third Temple's Holy Of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

September 1999

The Counterproliferation Papers Series was established by the USAF Counterproliferation Center to provide information and analysis to U.S. national security policy-makers and USAF officers to assist them in countering the threat posed by adversaries equipped with weapons of mass destruction. Copies of papers in this series are available from the USAF Counterproliferation Center, 325 Chennault Circle, Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6427. The fax number is (334) 953-7538; phone (334) 953-7538.

Counterproliferation Paper No. 2
USAF Counterproliferation Center
Air War College

Air University
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 36112-6427

The internet address for the USAF Counterproliferation Center is:
USAF Counterproliferation Center

Contents:

Page

Disclaimer i

The Author ii

Acknowledgments iii

Abstract iv

I. Introduction 1

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation 3

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project Through to Completion 9

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb Up the Basement Stairs 15

Appendix: Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal 23

Notes 25

Disclaimer

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

The Author

Colonel Warner D. Rocky Farr, Medical Corps, Master Flight Surgeon, U.S. Army, graduated from the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama before becoming the Command Surgeon, U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He also serves as the Surgeon for the U.S. Army Special Forces Command, U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, and the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. With thirty-three years of military service, he holds an Associate of Arts from the State University of New York, Bachelor of Science from Northeast Louisiana University, Doctor of Medicine from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Masters of Public Health from the University of Texas, and has completed medical residencies in aerospace medicine, and anatomic and clinical pathology. He is the only army officer to be board certified in these three specialties. Solo qualified in the TH-55A Army helicopter, he received flight training in the T-37 and T-38 aircraft as part of his USAF School of Aerospace Medicine residency.

Colonel Farr was a Master Sergeant Special Forces medic prior to receiving a direct commission to second lieutenant. He is now the senior Special Forces medical officer in the U.S. Army with prior assignments in the 5th, 7th, and 10th Special Forces Groups (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, in Vietnam, the United States, and Germany. He has advised the 12th and 20th Special Forces Groups (Airborne) in the reserves and national guard, served as Division Surgeon, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry), and as the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Army Aeromedical Center, Fort Rucker, Alabama.

Acknowledgments

I would like to acknowledge the assistance, guidance and encouragement from my Air War College (AWC) faculty research advisor, Dr. Andrew Terrill, instructor of the Air War College Arab-Israeli Wars course. Thanks are also due to the great aid of the Air University librarians. The author is also indebted to Captain J. R. Saunders, USN and Colonel Robert Sutton, USAF. Who also offered helpful suggestions.

Abstract

This paper is a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program drawn from a review of unclassified sources. Israel began its search for nuclear weapons at the inception of the state in 1948. As payment for Israeli participation in the Suez Crisis of 1956, France provided nuclear expertise and constructed a reactor complex for Israel at Dimona capable of large-scale plutonium production and reprocessing. The United States discovered the facility by 1958 and it was a subject of continual discussions between American presidents and Israeli prime ministers. Israel used delay and deception to at first keep the United States at bay, and later used the nuclear option as a bargaining chip for a consistent American conventional arms supply. After French disengagement in the early 1960s, Israel progressed on its own, including through several covert operations, to project completion. Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons. Israel has most probably conducted several nuclear bomb tests. They have continued to modernize and vertically proliferate and are now one of the world's larger nuclear powers. Using bomb in the basement nuclear opacity, Israel has been able to use its arsenal as a deterrent to the Arab world while not technically violating American nonproliferation requirements.

The Third Temple's Holy of Holies:
Israel's Nuclear Weapons

Warner D. Farr

I. Introduction

This is the end of the Third Temple.

- Attributed to Moshe Dayan

during the Yom Kippur War1

As Zionists in Palestine watched World War II from their distant sideshow, what lessons were learned? The soldiers of the Empire of Japan vowed on their emperor's sacred throne to fight to the death and not face the inevitability of an American victory. Many Jews wondered if the Arabs would try to push them into the Mediterranean Sea. After the devastating American nuclear attack on Japan, the soldier leaders of the empire reevaluated their fight to the death position. Did the bomb give the Japanese permission to surrender and live? It obviously played a military role, a political role, and a peacemaking role. How close was the mindset of the Samurai culture to the Islamic culture? Did David Ben-Gurion take note and wonder if the same would work for Israel?2 Could Israel find the ultimate deterrent that would convince her opponents that they could never, ever succeed? Was Israel's ability to cause a modern holocaust the best way to guarantee never having another one?

The use of unconventional weapons in the Middle East is not new. The British had used chemical artillery shells against the Turks at the second battle of Gaza in 1917. They continued chemical shelling against the Shiites in Iraq in 1920 and used aerial chemicals in the 1920s and 1930s in Iraq.3

Israel's involvement with nuclear technology starts at the founding of the state in 1948. Many talented Jewish scientists immigrated to Palestine during the thirties and forties, in particular, Ernst David Bergmann. He would become the director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission and the founder of Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Bergmann, a close friend and advisor of Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, counseled that nuclear energy could compensate for Israel's poor natural resources and small pool of military manpower. He pointed out that there was just one nuclear energy, not two, suggesting nuclear weapons were part of the plan.4 As early as 1948, Israeli scientists actively explored the Negev Desert for uranium deposits on orders from the Israeli Ministry of Defense. By 1950, they found low-grade deposits near Beersheba and Sidon and worked on a low power method of heavy water production.5

The newly created Weizmann Institute of Science actively supported nuclear research by 1949, with Dr. Bergmann heading the chemistry division. Promising students went overseas to study nuclear engineering and physics at Israeli government expense. Israel secretly founded its own Atomic Energy Commission in 1952 and placed it under the control of the Defense Ministry.6 The foundations of a nuclear program were beginning to develop.

II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation

It has always been our intention to develop a nuclear potential.

- Ephraim Katzir7

In 1949, Francis Perrin, a member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, nuclear physicist, and friend of Dr. Bergmann visited the Weizmann Institute. He invited Israeli scientists to the new French nuclear research facility at Saclay. A joint research effort was subsequently set up between the two nations. Perrin publicly stated in 1986 that French scientists working in America on the Manhattan Project and in Canada during World War II were told they could use their knowledge in France provided they kept it a secret.8 Perrin reportedly provided nuclear data to Israel on the same basis.9 One Israeli scientist worked at the U.S. Los Alamos National Laboratory and may have directly brought expertise home.10

After the Second World War, France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before World War II, but had fallen far behind the U.S., the U.S.S.R., the United Kingdom, and even Canada. Israel and France were at a similar level of expertise after the war, and Israeli scientists could make significant contributions to the French effort. Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties. Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule.11 France profited from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment.12 In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, France and Israel had close relations in many areas. France was Israel's principal arms supplier, and as instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, Israel provided valuable intelligence obtained from contacts with sephardic Jews in those countries.

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.13 Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.14

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai. 

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.15 Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.16 The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.17 Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.18

Why was France so eager to help Israel? DeMollet and then de Gaulle had a place for Israel within their strategic vision. A nuclear Israel could be a counterforce against Egypt in France's fight in Algeria. Egypt was openly aiding the rebel forces there. France also wanted to obtain the bomb itself. The United States had embargoed certain nuclear enabling computer technology from France. Israel could get the technology from America and pass it through to France. The U.S. furnished Israel heavy water, under the Atoms for Peace program, for the small research reactor at Soreq. France could use this heavy water. Since France was some years away from nuclear testing and success, Israeli science was an insurance policy in case of technical problems in France's own program.19 The Israeli intelligence community's knowledge of past French (especially Vichy) anti-Semitic transgressions and the continued presence of former Nazi collaborators in French intelligence provided the Israelis with some blackmail opportunities.20 The cooperation was so close that Israel worked with France on the preproduction design of early Mirage jet aircraft, designed to be capable of delivering nuclear bombs.21

French experts secretly built the Israeli reactor underground at Dimona, in the Negev desert of southern Israel near Beersheba. Hundreds of French engineers and technicians filled Beersheba, the biggest town in the Negev. Many of the same contractors who built Marcoule were involved. SON (a French firm) built the plutonium separation plants in both France and Israel. The ground was broken for the EL-102 reactor (as it was known to France) in early 1958. 

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted. On 2 December 1960, before Israel could make announcements, the U.S. State Department issued a statement that Israel had a secret nuclear installation. By 16 December, this became public knowledge with its appearance in the New York Times. On 21 December, Ben-Gurion announced that Israel was building a 24-megawatt reactor for peaceful purposes.22

Over the next year, relations between the U.S. and Israel became strained over the Dimona reactor. The U.S. accepted Israel's assertions at face value publicly, but exerted pressure privately. Although Israel allowed a cursory inspection by well known American physicists Eugene Wigner and I. I. Rabi, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion consistently refused to allow regular international inspections. The final resolution between the U.S. and Israel was a commitment from Israel to use the facility for peaceful purposes, and to admit an U.S. inspection team twice a year. These inspections began in 1962 and continued until 1969. Inspectors saw only the above ground part of the buildings, not the many levels underground and the visit frequency was never more than once a year. The above ground areas had simulated control rooms, and access to the underground areas was kept hidden while the inspectors were present. Elevators leading to the secret underground plutonium reprocessing plant were actually bricked over.23 Much of the information on these inspections and the political maneuvering around it has just been declassified.24

One interpretation of Ben-Gurion's peaceful purposes pledge given to America is that he interpreted it to mean that nuclear weapon development was not excluded if used strictly for defensive, and not offensive purposes. Israel's security position in the late fifties and early sixties was far more precarious than now. After three wars, with a robust domestic arms industry and a reliable defense supply line from the U.S., Israel felt much more secure. During the fifties and early sixties a number of attempts by Israel to obtain security guarantees from the U.S. to place Israel under the U.S. nuclear umbrella like NATO or Japan, were unsuccessful. If the U.S. had conducted a forward-looking policy to restrain Israel's proliferation, along with a sure defense agreement, we could have prevented the development of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

One common discussion in the literature concerns testing of Israeli nuclear devices. In the early phases, the amount of collaboration between the French and Israeli nuclear weapons design programs made testing unnecessary. In addition, although their main efforts were with plutonium, the Israelis may have amassed enough uranium for gun-assembled type bombs which, like the Hiroshima bomb, require no testing. One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not onesuch was the depth of collaboration.25 There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.26 Israel also supplied essential technology and hardware.27 The French reportedly shipped reprocessed plutonium back to Israel as part of their repayment for Israeli scientific help.

However, this constant, decade long, French cooperation and support was soon to end and Israel would have to go it alone.

III. 1963-1973: Seeing the Project to Completion

To act in such a way that the Jews who died in the gas chambers would be the last Jews to die without defending themselves.

- Golda Meir28

Israel would soon need its own, independent, capabilities to complete its nuclear program. Only five countries had facilities for uranium enrichment: the United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, France, and China. The Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, or NUMEC, in Apollo, Pennsylvania was a small fuel rod fabrication plant. In 1965, the U.S. government accused Dr. Zalman Shapiro, the corporation president, of losing 200 pounds of highly enriched uranium. Although investigated by the Atomic Energy Commission, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other government agencies and inquiring reporters, no answers were available in what was termed the Apollo Affair.29 Many remain convinced that the Israelis received 200 pounds of enriched uranium sometime before 1965.30 One source links Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad agent and later the handler of spy Jonathan Pollard, with NUMEC.31 In the 1990s when the NUMEC plant was disassembled, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission found over 100 kilograms of plutonium in the structural components of the contaminated plant, casting doubt on 200 pounds going to Israel.32

The joint venture with France gave Israel several ingredients for nuclear weapons construction: a production reactor, a factory to extract plutonium from the spent fuel, and the design. In 1962, the Dimona reactor went critical; the French resumed work on the underground plutonium reprocessing plant, and completed it in 1964 or 1965. The acquisition of this reactor and related technologies was clearly intended for military purposes from the outset (not dual-use), as the reactor has no other function. The security at Dimona (officially the Negev Nuclear Research Center) was particularly stringent. For straying into Dimona's airspace, the Israelis shot down one of their own Mirage fighters during the Six-Day War. The Israelis also shot down a Libyan airliner with 104 passengers, in 1973, which had strayed over the Sinai.33 There is little doubt that some time in the late sixties Israel became the sixth nation to manufacture nuclear weapons. Other things they needed were extra uranium and extra heavy water to run the reactor at a higher rate. Norway, France, and the United States provided the heavy water and Operation Plumbat provided the uranium.

After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.34 Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums Plumbat, which means lead, hence Operation Plumbat.35 The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.36 Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.37

Norway sold 20 tons of heavy water to Israel in 1959 for use in an experimental power reactor. Norway insisted on the right to inspect the heavy water for 32 years, but did so only once, in April 1961, while it was still in storage barrels at Dimona. Israel simply promised that the heavy water was for peaceful purposes. In addition, quantities much more than what would be required for the peaceful purpose reactors were imported. Norway either colluded or at the least was very slow to ask to inspect as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) rules required.38 Norway and Israel concluded an agreement in 1990 for Israel to sell back 10.5 tons of the heavy water to Norway. Recent calculations reveal that Israel has used two tons and will retain eight tons more.39

Author Seymour Hersh, writing in the Samson Option says Prime Minister Levi Eshkol delayed starting weapons production even after Dimona was finished.40 The reactor operated and the plutonium collected, but remained unseparated. The first extraction of plutonium probably occurred in late 1965. By 1966, enough plutonium was on hand to develop a weapon in time for the Six-Day War in 1967. Some type of non-nuclear test, perhaps a zero yield or implosion test, occurred on November 2, 1966. After this time, considerable collaboration between Israel and South Africa developed and continued through the 1970s and 1980s. South Africa became Israel's primary supplier of uranium for Dimona. A Center for Nonproliferation Studies report lists four separate Israel-South Africa clandestine nuclear deals. Three concerned yellowcake and one was tritium.41 Other sources of yellowcake may have included Portugal.42

Egypt attempted unsuccessfully to obtain nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union both before and after the Six-Day War. President Nasser received from the Soviet Union a questionable nuclear guarantee instead and declared that Egypt would develop its own nuclear program.43 His rhetoric of 1965 and 1966 about preventive war and Israeli nuclear weapons coupled with overflights of the Dimona rector contributed to the tensions that led to war. The Egyptian Air Force claims to have first overflown Dimona and recognized the existence of a nuclear reactor in 1965.44 Of the 50 American HAWK antiaircraft missiles in Israeli hands, half ringed Dimona by 1965.45 Israel considered the Egyptian overflights of May 16, 1967 as possible pre-strike reconnaissance. One source lists such Egyptian overflights, along with United Nations peacekeeper withdrawal and Egyptian troop movements into the Sinai, as one of the three tripwires which would drive Israel to war.46 There was an Egyptian military plan to attack Dimona at the start of any war but Nasser vetoed it.47 He believed Israel would have the bomb in 1968.48 Israel assembled two nuclear bombs and ten days later went to war.49 Nasser's plan, if he had one, may have been to gain and consolidate territorial gains before Israel had a nuclear option.50 He was two weeks too late.

The Israelis aggressively pursued an aircraft delivery system from the United States. President Johnson was less emphatic about nonproliferation than President Kennedy-or perhaps had more pressing concerns, such as Vietnam. He had a long history of both Jewish friends and pressing political contributors coupled with some first hand experience of the Holocaust, having toured concentration camps at the end of World War II.51 Israel pressed him hard for aircraft (A-4E Skyhawks initially and F-4E Phantoms later) and obtained agreement in 1966 under the condition that the aircraft would not be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The State Department attempted to link the aircraft purchases to continued inspection visits. President Johnson overruled the State Department concerning Dimona inspections.52 Although denied at the time, America delivered the F-4Es, on September 5, 1969, with nuclear capable hardware intact.53

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968, putting the plutonium separation plant into full operation. Israel began producing three to five bombs a year. The book Critical Mass asserts that Israel had two bombs in 1967, and that Prime Minister Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during the Six-Day War.54 Avner Cohen in his recent book, Israel and the Bomb, agrees that Israel had a deliverable nuclear capability in the 1967 war. He quotes Munya Mardor, leader of Rafael, the Armament Development Authority, and other unnamed sources, that Israel cobbled together two deliverable devices.55

Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the Samson Option of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.56

In 1971, Israel began purchasing krytrons, ultra high-speed electronic switching tubes that are dual-use," having both industrial and nuclear weapons applications as detonators. In the 1980s, the United States charged an American, Richard Smith (or Smyth), with smuggling 810 krytrons to Israel.57 He vanished before trial and reportedly lives outside Tel Aviv. The Israelis apologized for the action saying that the krytrons were for medical research.58 Israel returned 469 of the krytrons but the rest, they declared, had been destroyed in testing conventional weapons. Some believe they went to South Africa.59 Smyth has also been reported to have been involved in a 1972 smuggling operation to obtain solid rocket fuel binder compounds for the Jericho II missile and guidance component hardware.60 Observers point to the Jericho missile itself as proof of a nuclear capability as it is not suited to the delivery of conventional munitions.61

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that this is the end of the third temple, referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. Temple was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her kitchen cabinet made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.62

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October. The U.S. decided to open an aerial resupply pipeline to Israel, and Israeli aircraft began picking up supplies that day. Although stockpile depletion remained a concern, the military situation stabilized on October 8th and 9th as Israeli reserves poured into the battle and averted disaster. Well before significant American resupply had reached Israeli forces, the Israelis counterattacked and turned the tide on both fronts. 

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.63 Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.64

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.65 There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to going nuclear.66

A similar Soviet pipeline to the Arabs, equally robust, may or may not have included a ship with nuclear weapons on it, detected from nuclear trace emissions and shadowed by the Americans from the Dardanelles. The Israelis believe that the Soviets discovered Israeli nuclear preparations from COSMOS satellite photographs and decided to equalize the odds.67 The Soviet ship arrived in Alexandria on either 18 or 23 October (sources disagree), and remained, without unloading, until November 1973. The ship may have represented a Soviet guarantee to the Arab combatants to neutralize the Israeli nuclear option.68 While some others dismiss the story completely, the best-written review article concludes that the answer is obscure. Soviet premier Leonid Brezhnev threatened, on 24 October, to airlift Soviet airborne troops to reinforce the Egyptians cut off on the eastern side of the Suez Canal and put seven Soviet airborne divisions on alert.69 Recent evidence indicates that the Soviets sent nuclear missile submarines also.70 Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine claimed that the two Soviet SCUD brigades deployed in Egypt each had a nuclear warhead. American satellite photos seemed to confirm this. The U.S. passed to Israel images of trucks, of the type used to transport nuclear warheads, parked near the launchers.71 President Nixon's response was to bring the U.S. to worldwide nuclear alert the next day, whereupon Israel went to nuclear alert a third time.72 This sudden crisis quickly faded as Prime Minister Meir agreed to a cease-fire, relieving the pressure on the Egyptian Third Army.

Shimon Peres had argued for a pre-war nuclear demonstration to deter the Arabs. Arab strategies and war aims in 1967 may have been restricted because of a fear of the Israeli bomb in the basement, the undeclared nuclear option. The Egyptians planned to capture an eastern strip next to the Suez Canal and then hold. The Syrians did not aggressively commit more forces to battle or attempt to drive through the 1948 Jordan River border to the Israeli center. Both countries seemed not to violate Israel proper and avoided triggering one of the unstated Israeli reasons to employ nuclear weapons.73 Others discount any Arab planning based on nuclear capabilities.74 Peres also credits Dimona with bringing Anwar Sadat to Jerusalem to make peace.75 This position was seemingly confirmed by Sadat in a private conversation with Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman.76

At the end of the Yom Kippur War (a nation shaking experience), Israel has her nuclear arsenal fully functional and tested by a deployment. The arsenal, still opaque and unspoken, was no longer a secret, especially to the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.

IV. 1974-1999: Bringing the Bomb up the Basement Stairs

Never Again!

- Reportedly welded on the
first Israeli nuclear bomb77 

Shortly after the 1973 war, Israel allegedly fielded considerable nuclear artillery consisting of American 175 mm and 203 mm self-propelled artillery pieces, capable of firing nuclear shells. If true, this shows that Dimona had rapidly solved the problems of designing smaller weapons since the crude 1967 devices. If true, these low yield, tactical nuclear artillery rounds could reach at least 25 miles. The Israeli Defense Force did have three battalions of the 175mm artillery (36 tubes), reportedly with 108 nuclear shells and more for the 203mm tubes. Some sources describe a program to extend the range to 45 miles. They may have offered the South Africans these low yield, miniaturized, shells described as, the best stuff we got.78 By 1976, according to one unclassified source, the Central Intelligence Agency believed that the Israelis were using plutonium from Dimona and had 10 to 20 nuclear weapons available.79

In 1972, two Israeli scientists, Isaiah Nebenzahl and Menacehm Levin, developed a cheaper, faster uranium enrichment process. It used a laser beam for isotope separation. It could reportedly enrich seven grams of Uranium 235 sixty percent in one day.80 Sources later reported that Israel was using both centrifuges and lasers to enrich uranium.81

Questions remained regarding full-scale nuclear weapons tests. Primitive gun assembled type devices need no testing. Researchers can test non-nuclear components of other types separately and use extensive computer simulations. Israel received data from the 1960 French tests, and one source concludes that Israel accessed information from U.S. tests conducted in the 1950s and early 1960s. This may have included both boosted and thermonuclear weapons data.82 Underground testing in a hollowed out cavern is difficult to detect. A West Germany Army Magazine, Wehrtechnik, in June 1976, claimed that Western reports documented a 1963 underground test in the Negev. Other reports show a test at Al-Naqab, Negev in October 1966.83

A bright flash in the south Indian Ocean, observed by an American satellite on 22 September 1979, is widely believed to be a South Africa-Israel joint nuclear test. It was, according to some, the third test of a neutron bomb. The first two were hidden in clouds to fool the satellite and the third was an accidentthe weather cleared.84 Experts differ on these possible tests. Several writers report that the scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory believed it to have been a nuclear explosion while a presidential panel decided otherwise.85 President Carter was just entering the Iran hostage nightmare and may have easily decided not to alter 30 years of looking the other way.86 The explosion was almost certainly an Israeli bomb, tested at the invitation of the South Africans. It was more advanced than the gun type bombs developed by the South Africans.87 One report claims it was a test of a nuclear artillery shell.88 A 1997 Israeli newspaper quoted South African deputy foreign minister, Aziz Pahad, as confirming it was an Israeli test with South African logistical support.89

Controversy over possible nuclear testing continues to this day. In June 1998, a Member of the Knesset accused the government of an underground test near Eilat on May 28, 1998. Egyptian nuclear experts had made similar charges. The Israeli government hotly denied the claims.90

Not only were the Israelis interested in American nuclear weapons development data, they were interested in targeting data from U.S. intelligence. Israel discovered that they were on the Soviet target list. American-born Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard obtained satellite-imaging data of the Soviet Union, allowing Israel to target accurately Soviet cities. This showed Israel's intention to use its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent political lever, or retaliatory capability against the Soviet Union itself. Israel also used American satellite imagery to plan the 7 June 1981 attack on the Tammuz-1 reactor at Osiraq, Iraq. This daring attack, carried out by eight F-16s accompanied by six F-15s punched a hole in the concrete reactor dome before the reactor began operation (and just days before an Israeli election). It delivered 15 delay-fused 2000 pound bombs deep into the reactor structure (the 16th bomb hit a nearby hall). The blasts shredded the reactor and blew out the dome foundations, causing it to collapse on the rubble. This was the world's first attack on a nuclear reactor.91

Since 19 September 1988, Israel has worked on its own satellite recon- naissance system to decrease reliance on U.S. sources. On that day, they launched the Offeq-1 satellite on the Shavit booster, a system closely related to the Jericho-II missile. They launched the satellite to the west away from the Arabs and against the earth's rotation, requiring even more thrust. The Jericho-II missile is capable of sending a one ton nuclear payload 5,000 kilometers. Offeq-2 went up on 3 April 1990. The launch of the Offeq-3 failed on its first attempt on 15 September 1994, but was successful 5 April 1995.92

Mordechai Vanunu provided the best look at the Israeli nuclear arsenal in 1985 complete with photographs.93 A technician from Dimona who lost his job, Vanunu secretly took photographs, immigrated to Australia and published some of his material in the London Sunday Times. He was subsequently kidnapped by Israeli agents, tried and imprisoned. His data shows a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.94 The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs show a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing.95 He revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium. These facts have increased the estimates of total Israeli nuclear stockpiles (see Appendix A).96 In the words of one American, [the Israelis] can do anything we or the Soviets can do.97 Vanunu not only made the technical details of the Israeli program and stockpile public but in his wake, Israeli began veiled official acknowledgement of the potent Israeli nuclear deterrent. They began bringing the bomb up the basement stairs if not out of the basement.

Israel went on full-scale nuclear alert again on the first day of Desert Storm, 18 January 1991. Seven SCUD missiles were fired against the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa by Iraq (only two actually hit Tel Aviv and one hit Haifa). This alert lasted for the duration of the war, 43 days. Over the course of the war, Iraq launched around 40 missiles in 17 separate attacks at Israel. There was little loss of life: two killed directly, 11 indirectly, with many structures damaged and life disrupted.98 Several supposedly landed near Dimona, one of them a close miss.99 Threats of retaliation by the Shamir government if the Iraqis used chemical warheads were interpreted to mean that Israel intended to launch a nuclear strike if gas attacks occurred. One Israeli commentator recommended that Israel should signal Iraq that any Iraqi action against Israeli civilian populations, with or without gas, may leave Iraq without Baghdad.100 Shortly before the end of the war the Israelis tested a nuclear capable missile which prompted the United States into intensifying its SCUD hunting in western Iraq to prevent any Israeli response.101 The Israeli Air Force set up dummy SCUD sites in the Negev for pilots to practice onthey found it no easy task.102 American government concessions to Israel for not attacking (in addition to Israeli Patriot missile batteries) were:

Allowing Israel to designate 100 targets inside Iraq for the coalition to destroy,
Satellite downlink to increase warning time on the SCUD attacks (present and future),
Technical parity with Saudi jet fighters in perpetuity.103

All of this validated the nuclear arsenal in the minds of the Israelis. In particular the confirmed capability of Arab states without a border with Israel, the so-called second tier states, to reach out and touch Israel with ballistic missiles confirmed Israel's need for a robust first strike capability.104 Current military contacts between Israel and India, another nuclear power, bring up questions of nuclear cooperation.105 Pakistani sources have already voiced concerns over a possible joint Israeli-Indian attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities.106 A recent Parameters article speculated on Israel's willingness to furnish nuclear capabilities or assistance to certain states, such as Turkey.107 A retired Israeli Defense Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Amnon Shahak, has declared, all methods are acceptable in withholding nuclear capabilities from an Arab state.108

As the Israeli bomb comes out of the basement, open discussion, even in Israel, is occurring on why the Israelis feel they need an arsenal not used in at least two if not three wars. Avner Cohen states: It [Israel] must be in a position to threaten another Hiroshima to prevent another holocaust.109 In July 1998 Shimon Peres was quoted in the Jordan Times as saying, We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo,110 referring to the peace process.

One list of current reasons for an Israeli nuclear capability is:

To deter a large conventional attack,
To deter all levels of unconventional (chemical, biological, nuclear) attacks,
To preempt enemy nuclear attacks,
To support conventional preemption against enemy nuclear assets,
To support conventional preemption against enemy non-nuclear (conventional, chemical, biological) assets,
For nuclear warfighting,
The Samson Option (last resort destruction).111

The most alarming of these is the nuclear warfighting. The Israelis have developed, by several accounts, low yield neutron bombs able to destroy troops with minimal damage to property.112 In 1990, during the Second Gulf War, an Israeli reserve major general recommended to America that it use non-contaminating tactical nuclear weapons against Iraq.113 Some have speculated that the Israelis will update their nuclear arsenal to micronukes and tinynukes which would be very useful to attack point targets and other tactical or barrier (mining) uses.114 These would be very useful for hardened deeply buried command and control facilities and for airfield destruction without exposing Israeli pilots to combat.115 Authors have made the point that Israeli professional military schools do not teach nuclear tactics and would not use them in the close quarters of Israel. Many Israeli officers have attended American military schools where they learned tactical use in crowded Europe.116

However, Jane's Intelligence Review has recently reported an Israeli review of nuclear strategy with a shift from tactical nuclear warheads to long range missiles.117 Israel always has favored the long reach, whether to Argentina for Adolph Eichmann, to Iraq to strike a reactor, Entebbe for hostages, Tunisia to hit the PLO, or by targeting the Soviet Union's cities. An esteemed Israeli military author has speculated that Israel is pursuing an R&D program to provide MIRVs (multiple independent reentry vehicles) on their missiles.118

The government of Israel recently ordered three German Dolphin Class 800 submarine, to be delivered in late 1999. Israel will then have a second strike capability with nuclear cruise missiles, and this capability could well change the nuclear arms race in the Middle East.119 Israeli rhetoric on the new submarines labels them national deterrent assets. Projected capabilities include a submarine-launched nuclear missile with a 350-kilometer range.120 Israel has been working on sea launch capability for missiles since the 1960s.121 The first basing options for the new second-strike force of nuclear missile capable submarines include Oman, an Arab nation with unofficial Israeli relations, located strategically near Iran.122 A report indicates that the Israel Defense Ministry has formally gone to the government with a request to authorize a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was hit with first strike nuclear weapons. This report comes in the wake of a recent Iran Shihab-3 missile test and indications to Israel that Iran is two to three years from a nuclear warhead.123 Israeli statements stress that Iran's nuclear potential would be problem to all and would require American leadership, with serious participation of the G-7 . . . .124

A recent study highlighted Israel's extreme vulnerability to a first strike and an accompanying vulnerability even to a false alarm.125 Syria's entire defense against Israel seems to rest on chemical weapons and warheads.126 One scenario involves Syria making a quick incursion into the Golan and then threatening chemical strikes, perhaps with a new, more lethal (protective-mask-penetrable) Russian nerve gas if Israel resists.127 Their use would drive Israel to nuclear use. Israeli development of an anti- missile defense, the Arrow, a fully fielded (30-50128) Jericho II ballistic missile, and the soon-to-arrive strategic submarine force, seems to have produced a coming change in defense force structure. The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, quotes the Israeli Chief of Staff discussing the establishment of a strategic command to . . . prepare an adequate response to the long term threats. . . 129

The 1994 accord with Jordan, allowing limited Israeli military presence in Jordanian skies, could make the flying distance to several potential adversaries considerably shorter.130 Israel is concerned about Iran's desire to obtain nuclear weapons and become a regional leader, coupled with large numbers of Shiite ******* in southern Lebanon. The Israeli Air Force commanding general issued a statement saying Israel would consider an attack if any country gets close to achieving a nuclear capability.131 The Israelis are obviously considering actions capable of stopping such programs and are buying aircraft such as the F-15I with sufficient operational range. At the first delivery of these 4,000 kilometer range fighters, the Israeli comment was, the aircraft would help counter a growing nuclear threat.132 They consider such regional nation nuclear programs to be a sufficient cause for war. Their record of accomplishment is clear: having hit the early Iraqi nuclear effort, they feel vindicated by Desert Storm. They also feel that only the American and Israeli nuclear weapons kept Iraq's Saddam Hussein from using chemical or biological weapons against Israel.133

Israel, like Iran, has desires of regional power. The 1956 alliance with France and Britain might have been a first attempt at regional hegemony. Current debate in the Israeli press considers offering Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and perhaps Syria (after a peace agreement) an Israeli nuclear umbrella of protection.134 A nuclear Iran or Iraq might use its nuclear weapons to protect some states in the region, threaten others, and attempt to control oil prices.135

Another speculative area concerns Israeli nuclear security and possible misuse. What is the chain of decision and control of Israel's weapons? How susceptible are they to misuse or theft? With no open, frank, public debate on nuclear issues, there has accordingly been no debate or information on existing safeguards. This has led to accusations of monolithic views and sinister intentions.1360 Would a right wing military government decide to employ nuclear weapons recklessly? Ariel Sharon, an outspoken proponent of Greater Israel was quoted as saying, Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.137 Could the Gush Emunim, a right wing religious organization, or others, hijack a nuclear device to liberate the Temple Mount for the building of the third temple? Chances are small but could increase as radicals decry the peace process.138 A 1997 article reviewing the Israeli Defense Force repeatedly stressed the possibilities of, and the need to guard against, a religious, right wing military coup, especially as the proportion of religious in the military increases.139

Israel is a nation with a state religion, but its top leaders are not religious Jews. The intricacies of Jewish religious politics and rabbinical law do affect their politics and decision processes. In Jewish law, there are two types of war, one obligatory and mandatory (milkhemet mitzvah) and the one authorized but optional (milkhemet reshut).140 The labeling of Prime Minister Begin's Peace for Galilee operation as a milchemet brera (war of choice) was one of the factors causing it to lose support.141 Interpretation of Jewish law concerning nuclear weapons does not permit their use for mutual assured destruction. However, it does allow possession and threatening their use, even if actual use is not justifiable under the law. Interpretations of the law allow tactical use on the battlefield, but only after warning the enemy and attempting to make peace. How much these intricacies affect Israeli nuclear strategy decisions is unknown.142

The secret nature of the Israeli nuclear program has hidden the increasing problems of the aging Dimona reactor and adverse worker health effects. Information is only now public as former workers sue the government. This issue is now linked to continued tritium production for the boosted anti-tank and anti-missile nuclear warheads that Israeli continues to need. Israel is attempting to obtain a new, more efficient, tritium production technology developed in India.143

One other purpose of Israeli nuclear weapons, not often stated, but obvious, is their use on the United States. America does not want Israel's nuclear profile raised.144 They have been used in the past to ensure America does not desert Israel under increased Arab, or oil embargo, pressure and have forced the United States to support Israeli diplomatically against the Soviet Union. Israel used their existence to guarantee a continuing supply of American conventional weapons, a policy likely to continue.145

Regardless of the true types and numbers (see Appendix A) of Israeli nuclear weapons, they have developed a sophisticated system, by myriad methods, and are a nuclear power to be reckoned with. Their nuclear ambiguity has served their purposes well but Israel is entering a different phase of visibility even as their nuclear capability is entering a new phase. This new visibility may not be in America's interest.146 Many are predicting the Israeli nuclear arsenal will become less useful out of the basement and possibly spur a regional arms race. If so, Israel has a 5-10 year lead time at present before mutual assured destruction, Middle East style, will set in. Would regional mutual second strike capability, easier to acquire than superpower mutual second strike capability, result in regional stability? Some think so.147 Current Israeli President Ezer Weizman has stated the nuclear issue is gaining momentum [and the] next war will not be conventional.148

Appendix A

Estimates of the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal



Notes

1. Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option. Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy (New York: Random House, 1991), 223.

2. Aronson, Slomo and Brosh, Oded, The Politics and Strategy of Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East, the Opacity Theory, and Reality, 1960-1991-An Israeli Perspective (Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 1992), 20.

3. Karsh, Efraim, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 82.

4. Cohen, Avner, Israel and the Bomb (New York: Columbia University Press, 1998), 16.

5. Cordesman, Anthony, Perilous Prospects: The Peace Process and the Arab-Israeli Military Balance (Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1996), 118.

6. Pry, Peter, Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (Boulder, Colorado: Westview, 1984), 5-6.

7. Quoted in Weissman, Steve and Krosney, Herbert. The Islamic Bomb: The Nuclear Threat to Israel and the Middle East. (New York, New York: Times Books, 1981), 105.

8. Former Official Says France Helped Build Israel's Dimona Complex. Nucleonics Week October 16, 1986, 6.

9. Milhollin, Gary, Heavy Water Cheaters. Foreign Policy (1987-88): 101-102.

10. Cordesman, 1991, 127.

11. Federation of American Scientists, Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program. 10 December 1997, n.p. On-line. Internet, 27 October 1998. Available from http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Israel/Isrhist.html.

12. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in Israel (New Delhi: S. B. Nangia Books, 1996), 3.

13. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 48-49.

14. Bennett, Jeremy, The Suez Crisis. BBC Video. n.d. Videocassette and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi. Every Spy a Prince. The Complete History of Israel's Intelligence Community. (Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990), 63-69.

15. Weissman and Krosney, 112.

16. Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal (London) Sunday Times No. 8,461, 5 October 1986, 1, 4-5.

17. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, 57-59.

18. Peres, Shimon, Battling for Peace. A Memoir (New York, New York: Random House, 1995), 122.

19. Pry, 10.

20. Loftus, John and Aarons, Mark, The Secret War Against the Jews. How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People (New York, New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1994), 287-303.

21. Green, Stephen, Taking Sides. America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1984), 152.

22. Cohen, Avner, Most Favored Nation. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 51, no. 1 (January-February 1995): 44-53. 

23. Hersh, The Samson Option, 196.

24. See Cohen, Avner, Israel's Nuclear History: The Untold Kennedy-Eshkol Dimona Correspondence. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 159-194 and Cohen, Avner, Comp. Recently Declassified 1963 Correspondence between President Kennedy and Prime Ministers Ben-Gurion and Eshkol. Journal of Israeli History, 1995 16, no. 2, 195-207. Much of the documentation has been posted to http:\\www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/israel.

25. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit.,114-117

26. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 82-83.

27. Spector, Leonard S., The Undeclared Bomb (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Ballinger Publishers, 1988), 387 (n.22).

28. Quoted in Stevens, Elizabeth. Israel's Nuclear WeaponsA Case Study. 14 pages. On line. Internet, 23 October 1998. Available from
http://infomanage.com/nonproliferation/najournal/israelinucs.html.

29. Green, Taking Sides, 148-179 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 197-198.

30. Weissman and Krosney, 119-124.

31. Black, Ian and Morris, Benny, Israel's Secret Wars. A history of Israel's Intelligence Services (New York, New York: Grove Weidenfeld, 1991), 418-419.

32. Hersh, 257.

33. Green, Stephen, Living by the Sword: America and Israel in the Middle East, 1968-1987 (London: Faber, 1988), 63-80.

34. Cordesman, 1991, 120.

35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.

38. Milhollin, 100-119.

39. Stanghelle, Harold, Israel to sell back 10.5 tons. Arbeiderbladet, Oslo, Norway, 28 June 1990 in: Center for Nonproliferation Studies, Nuclear Developments, 28 June 1990, 34-35; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

40. Hersh, op. cit., 139.

41. Center for Nonproliferation Studies. Israeli Friends, ISIS Report, May 1994, 4; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

42. Abecasis, Rachel, Uranium reportedly offered to China, Israel. Radio Renascenca, Lisbon, 9 December 1992 quoted in Center for Nonproliferation, Proliferation Issues, 23 December, 1992, 25; on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

43. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 231-232 and 256-257.

44. Nordeen, Lon O., Nicolle, David, Phoenix over the Nile (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institute Press, 1996), 192-193.

45. O'Balance, Edgar, The Third Arab-Israeli War (London: Faber and Faber, 1972), 54.

46. Brecher, Michael, Decision in Crisis. Israel, 1967 and 1973 (Berkley, California: University of California Press, 1980), 104, 230-231.

47. Cohen, Avner. Cairo, Dimona, and the June 1967 War. Middle East Journal 50, no. 2 (Spring 1996), 190-210.

48. Creveld, Martin van. The Sword and the Olive. A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force (New York, New York: Public Affairs, 1998), 174.

49. Burrows, William E. and Windrem, Robert, Critical Mass. The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1994), 282-283.

50. Aronson, Shlomo, Israel's Nuclear Options, ACIS Working Paper No. 7. Los Angeles, California: University of California Center for Arms Control and International Security, 1977, 3, and Sorenson, David S., Middle East Regional Studies-AY99, Air War College: Maxwell Air Force Base, AL, 542.

51. Hersh, op. cit., 126-128.

52. Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 210-213.

53. Spector, Leonard S., Foreign-Supplied Combat Aircraft: Will They Drop the Third World Bomb? Journal of International Affairs 40, no. 1(1986): 145 (n. 5) and Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 18-19.

54. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280.

55. Cohen, op. cit., Israel and the Bomb, 237.

56. Ibid., 273-274.

57. Milhollin, op. cit., 103-104.

58. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, Friend in Deed: Inside the U.S.-Israel Alliance (New York New York: Hyperion, 1994), 299.

59. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 464-465 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 304-305.

60. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 179.

61. Dowty, Alan. Israel and Nuclear Weapons. Midstream 22, no. 7 (November 1976), 8-9.

62. Hersh, op. cit., 217, 222-226, and Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

63. Green, op. cit., Living by the Sword, 90-99.

64. Loftus and Aarons, op. cit., 316-317.

65 Smith, Gerard C. and Cobban, Helena. A Blind Eye To Nuclear Proliferation. Foreign Affairs 68, no. 3(1989), 53-70.

66. Hersh, op. cit., 230-231.

67. O'Balance, Edgar, No Victor, No Vanquished. The Yom Kippur War (San Rafael, California: Presido Press, 1978), 175.

68. Ibid., 234-235 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 15-18. 

69. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 396 (n. 62); Garthoff, Raymond L., Détente and Confrontation: American-Soviet Relations from Nixon to Reagan (Washington, DC: The Brookings Institute, 1994), 426, n76 and Bandmann, Yona and Cordova, Yishai. The Soviet Nuclear Threat Towards the Close of the Yom Kippur War. Jerusalem Journal of International Relations 1980 5, no. 1, 107-9.

70. Cherkashin, Nikolai, On Moscow's Orders. Russian Life, 39, no. 10 (October 1996), 13-15.

71. Brownlow, Cecil. Soviets poise three-front global drive. Nuclear weapons in Egypt, artillery buildup at Guantanamo, Communist concentrations in Vietnam aimed at political gains. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 12-14; Holt, Robert. Soviet Power Play. Aviation Week and Space Technology 99, no. 19 (5 November 1973), 7 and Gur-Arieh, Danny, A non-Conventional Look at Israel During '73 War. IsraelWire Tuesday, October 6, 1998 17, 23; on-line, Internet 20 November 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

72. Hersh, op. cit., 321-235.

73. Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 220-221.

74. Evron, Yair, Israel's Nuclear Dilemma (Ithaca, New York: Cornell Publishing, 1994), 62-74.

75. Cohen, Avner, Peres: Peacemaker, Nuclear Pioneer. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 52, no. 3 (May/June 1996), 16-17 and Aronson, S, op. cit., 11-12.

76. Karsh, op. cit., 86.

77. Quoted in Hersh, op. cit., 180 and Stevens, op. cit., 1-14.

78. Hersh, op. cit., 216, 276 and Kaku, Michio. Contingency Plans: Nuclear Weapons after the Cold War. In Altered States: A Reader in the New World Order, Bennis, Phyllis and Moushabeck, Michel, Eds. (New York, New York: 1993), 66.

79. Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

80. Gillette, Robert, Uranium Enrichment: Rumors of Israeli Progress with Lasers. Science 183, no. 4130 (22 March 1974), 1172-1174.

81. Barnaby, Frank, The Invisible Bomb: The Nuclear Arms Race in the Middle East (London: I. B. Tauris, 1988), 25.

82. Israel: The Covert Connection. Frontline, PBS Network, May 16, 1989, quoted in Spector, Leonard S., and McDonough, Mark G., with Medeiros, Evan S., Tracking Nuclear Proliferation. A Guide in Maps and Charts, 1995 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1995).

83. Nashif, Taysir N., Nuclear Weapons in the Middle East: Dimensions and Responsibilities (Princeton, New Jersey: Kingston Press, 1984), 22-23.

84. Hersh, op. cit., 216.

85. Barnaby, Frank, Capping Israel's Nuclear Volcano, Between War and Peace. Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Karsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 98.

86. Hersh, op. cit., 271-275.

87. Nashif, op. cit., 32.

88. Gaffney, Mark, Dimona: The Third Temple? The Story Behind the Vanunu Revelation (Brattleboro, Vermont: Amana Books, 1989), 100-101.

89. Pedatzur, Re'uven, South African Statement On Nuclear Test Said to Serve Israel, Ha'aretz, 29 July 1997. On line: Internet, 22 November 1998 and Kelley, Robert. The Iraqi and South African Nuclear WôNuclear Abstracts," 1 March 1996, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, both available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

90. Was there a Nuclear Test near Eilat? IsraelWire, 16 June 1998, or on line Internet, 22 November, 1998, available from israelwire.com and Deputy Defense Minister Denies Israeli Nuclear Testing. Israeli Wire, June 18, 1998, or on-line. Internet, 13 October 1998, available from 404 - Not Found.

91. McKinnon, Dan. Bullseye One Reactor. The Story of Israel's Bold Surprise Air Attack That Destroyed Iraqi's Nuclear Bomb Facility (Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing Ltd., 1987).

92. Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, Report on the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Moscow, 1993. Journal of Palestine Studies XXII, no. 4 (Summer 1993): 135-140; Creveld, Martin van, Nuclear Proliferation and the Future Of Conflict (New York: The Free Press, 1993), 105; and Clark, Philip. ôThird successful Israeli satellite launch. Jane's Intelligence Review 7, no. 6 (June 1995), 25-26.

93. Sunday Times, London, op. cit., 1,4-5.

94. Toscano, Louis, Triple Cross: Israel, the Atomic Bomb and the Man Who Spilled the Secrets (New York: Carol Publishing Group, 1990).

95. Green, Living by the Sword, op. cit., 134.

96. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, op. cit., 165-166.

97. Hersh, op. cit., 291.

98. Levran, Aharon, Israeli Strategy after Desert Storm: Lessons from the Second Gulf War (London: Frank Cass, 1997), 1-10.

99. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 278.

100. Cohen, Avner and Miller, Marvin, Nuclear Shadows in the Middle East: Prospects for Arms Control in the Wake of the Gulf Crisis (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1990), 10.

101. Aronson and Brosh, op. cit., 276.

102. Raviv and Melman, op. cit., 399.

103. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 297n and Creveld, 1998, op. cit., 321-322.

104. Levran, op. cit., 8-10.

105. Ahmar, Moonis, Pakistan and Israel: Distant Adversaries or Neighbors? Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, 1996, 20, no.1, 43-44.

106. Nuclear proliferation didn't start in 1998 . . .and not in Pakistan nor with Islam, Middle East Realities, or on-line, Internet, 21 September 1998, available from http://www.middleeast.org/1998_06_28.htm.

107. Garrity, Patrick J. The Next Nuclear Questions. Parameters, XXV, no. 4 (Winter 1995-96), 92-111.

108. Cohen, Eliezer. Israel's best defense: the First Full Story of the Israeli Air Force, (New York, New York: Random House, 1993), 495.

109. Cohen and Miller, op. cit., 18.

110. Before Meeting with King, Peres Claims Israel's Nuclear Arsenal was built for Peace, Jordan Times, July 14, 1998. Quoted in Sorenson, op. cit., 542.

111. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's Bomb in the Basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure', Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security, edited by Efraim Harsh (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 113-133.

112. Hersh, op. cit., 319.

113. Amos, Deborah, Lines in the Sand: Desert Storm and the Remaking of the Arab World (New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), 105.

114. Dowler, Thomas W. and Howard II, Joseph H., Countering the threat of the well-armed tyrant: A modest proposal for small nuclear weapons, Strategic Review, XIX, no. 4 (Fall 1991), 34-40.

115. Beres, Louis Rene, Israel's bomb in the basement: A revisiting of `Deliberate Ambiguity' vs. `Disclosure.'  In Karsh, Efraim, op. cit., Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 116.

116. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 265.

117. Hough, Harold, Israel reviews its nuclear deterrent, Jane's Intelligence Review 10, no.11 (November 1998), 11-13.

118. Creveld, op. cit., 1993, 105.

119. Burrows, and Windrem, op. cit., 311-312 and Israel begins test of nuclear missile submarines, The Irish Times, July 2, 1998, or on-line, Internet, 24 December 1998, available from http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/0702/wor13.html.

120. Melman, Yossi, Swimming with the Dolphins, Ha'aretz, Tuesday, June 9, 1998, and Report: Israel to get Subs with Nuclear Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, I July 3, 1998, 3 and Sorenson, op. cit., 543.

121. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, op. cit., 1990, 344-345, 422-423.

122. Shahak, Israel, Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (London: Pluto Press, 1997), 72-73.

123. Davis, Douglas, Defense Officials Said Urging Nuclear Second-Strike Capability, Jerusalem Post, 6 August 1998, 3; or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

124. Inbar, Efraim, Israel's security in a new international environment, in Karsh, Efraim, Editor, Between War and Peace: Dilemmas of Israeli Security (London, England: Frank Cass, 1996), 41.

125. Hough, Harold, Could Israel's Nuclear Assets Survive a First Strike? Jane's Intelligence Review, September 1997, 407-410.

126. Terrill, W. Andrew, The Chemical Warfare Legacy of the Yemen War. Comparative Strategy, 10 (1991), 109-119.

127. Boyne, Sean, Across the Great Divide. Will Assad go for the Golan? Jane's Intelligence Review, 10, no. 4 (April 1998), 21-24 and Cordesman, 1996, op. cit., 254.

128. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 243.

129, Harel, Amos and Barzilai, Amnon, Mordechai says Arrow alone cannot protect against missiles, Ha'aretz, 13 January 1999, or on-line, Internet, 13 January 1999, available from http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/3_9.htm

130. Shahak, op. cit., 78-79.

131. Chubin, Shahram, Does Iran Want Nuclear Weapons? Survival 37, no. 1 (Spring 1995), 91-93.

132. O'Sullivan, Arich, New F-15I Warplanes Expand Israel's Reach, The Jerusalem Post, 19 January 1997, or on-line, Internet 22 November 1998, available from Israel News | Online Israeli News Covering Israel & The Jewish World - JPost.

133. Karsh, op. cit., 9.

134. Shahak, op. cit., 4-5.

135. Garrity, op. cit., 92-111.

136. Dowty, op. cit., 8.

137. Gaffney, op. cit., 165.

138. Ibid., 37-38 and Friedman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement (New York, New York: Random House, 1992), 132-52.

139. Blanche, Ed, Is the Myth Fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 1. Jane's Intelligence Review, 8, no. 12 (December 1996), 547-550 and Blanche, Ed. Is the myth fading for the Israeli Army?  Part 2, Jane's Intelligence Review 9, no. 1 (January 1997), 25-28.

140. Cohen, Stuart A., The Scroll or the Sword? Dilemmas of Religion and Military Service in Israel (Amsterdam, Netherlands: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1997), 11-24.

141. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 298.

142. Broyde, Michael J., Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition, or on-line, Internet, 20 November 1998, available from Jewish Law - Articles ("Fighting the War and the Peace: Battlefield Ethics, Peace Talks, Treaties, and Pacifism in the Jewish Tradition").

143. Hough, Harold, op. cit., 1998, 11-12 and Berger, Julian, Court Fury At Israeli Reactor. Guardian, 13 October 1997, in Center for Nonproliferation, Nuclear Abstracts, 13 October 1997, or on-line, Internet, 22 November 1998, available from James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS).

144. Creveld, op. cit., 1998, 252.

145. Valry, Nicholas, Israel's Silent Gamble with the Bomb, New Scientist (12 December 1974), 807-09.

146. Harden, Major James D., Israeli Nuclear Weapons and War in the Middle East, Master's Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA, December 1997.

147. Dowdy, op. cit., 20.

148. Aronson, Geoffrey, Hidden Agenda: US-Israeli Relations and the Nuclear Question, Middle East Journal, 46, no. 4 (Autumn 1992), 619-630.

149. Data from Time, 12 April 1976, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 107.

150. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 280 and Cohen, Israel and the Bomb, op. cit., 273-274.

151. Tahtinen, Dale R., The Arab-Israel Military Balance Today (Washington, DC: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, 1973), 34.

152. How Israel Got the Bomb. Time, 12 April 1976, 39.

153. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 302.

154. Kaku, op. cit., 66 and Hersh, op. cit., 216.

155. Valéry, op. cit., 807-09.

156. Data from CIA, quoted in Weissman and Krosney, op. cit., 109.

157. Ottenberg, Michael, Estimating Israel's Nuclear Capabilities, Command, 30 (October 1994), 6-8. 

158. Pry, op. cit., 75.

159. Ibid., 111.

160. Data from NBC Nightly News, quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104 and Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

161. Data from Vanunu quoted in Milhollin, op. cit., 104.

162. Harkavy, Robert E. After the Gulf War: The Future of the Israeli Nuclear Strategy, The Washington Quarterly (Summer 1991), 164.

163. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 308.

164. Albright, David, Berkhout, Frans and Walker, William, Plutonium and Highly Enriched Uranium 1996. World Inventories, Capabilities, and Policies (New York: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute And Oxford University Press, 1997), 262-263.

165. Hough, Harold, Israel's Nuclear Infrastructure, Jane's Intelligence Review 6, no. 11 (November 1994), 508.

166. Ibid., 262-263.

167. Spector, and McDonough, with Medeiros, op. cit., 135.

168. Burrows and Windrem, op. cit., 283-284.

169. Cordesman, op. cit., 1996, 234.

170. Ibid., 234.

171. Ibid., 230, 243.

172. Brower, Kenneth S., A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East, Jane's Intelligence Review, Special Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.

173. Albright, Berkhout, and Walker, op. cit., 262-263.

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The USAF Counterproliferation Center was established in 1998 to provide education and research to the present and future leaders of the USAF, and thereby help them better prepare to counter the threat from weapons of mass destruction.

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Israel's Nuclear Weapons


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## T-Rex

*This threat of the zionazi nukes is the source of the real instability in the ME. Focusing on Iran's response is the zionazi strategy to divert attention from the threat of the israeli WMDs. The entire programme of the nuclear non-proliferation by the american charalatans is based on lies and deceit. The world knows it quite well but remains silent out of the fear of the 'consequence' so often uttered by the thugs who sell themselves as the champions of nuclear non-proliferation, justice, human rights etc.*

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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *This threat of the zionazi nukes is the source of the real instability in the ME. Focusing on Iran's response is the zionazi strategy to divert attention from the threat of the israeli WMDs. The entire programme of the nuclear non-proliferation by the american charalatans is based on lies and deceit. The world knows it quite well but remains silent out of the fear of the 'consequence' so often uttered by the thugs who sell themselves as the champions of nuclear non-proliferation, justice, human rights etc.*



So many strong words, so little truth and sincerity. There is no resemblance between Israel and Iran, it is obvious to anyone with a little sense, but I guess I am asking too much.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So many strong words, so little truth and sincerity. There is no resemblance between Israel and Iran, it is obvious to anyone with a little sense, but I guess I am asking too much.



*
Two small sentences from a zionazi that are the sum of all the lies of the present world.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Two small sentences from a zionazi that are the sum of all the lies of the present world.*



only an anti-Semite who is blind to reality and with no integrity will lie with no shame.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> only an anti-Semite who is blind to reality and with no integrity will lie with no shame.


*
Ask the members, they'll tell you who shamelessly lies on this forum. Zionazis like you are born to depict everything ugly in life and when they get nukes the entire humanity is under a grave threat!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Ask the members, they'll tell you who shamelessly lies on this forum. Zionazis like you are born to depict everything ugly in life and when they get nukes the entire humanity is under a grave threat!*



You continue to lie without hesitation - Israel is said to have nukes since the 1960's and yet anti-Semites like yourself are still breathing.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You continue to lie without hesitation - Israel is said to have nukes since the 1960's and yet anti-Semites like yourself are still breathing.


*
How many times did you say on this forum that there was no evidence that israel possessed nukes? Now you say that israel has nukes since 1960. You lie left and right like all zionazis. The Soviets never used their nukes, so why did your big daddy see the Soviet nukes as a threat? The Breivik like zionazis like you can get hold of the israeli nukes and they are masters of false flag operations and terrorism.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> How many times did you say on this forum that there was no evidence that israel possessed nukes? Now you say that israel has nukes since 1960. You lie left and right like all zionazis. The Soviets never used their nukes, so why did your big daddy see the Soviet nukes as a threat? The Breivik like zionazis like you can get hold of the israeli nukes and they are masters of false flag operations and terrorism.*



Learn to read first before you start to scream and lie - Israel is said to have nukes since the 1960's, *not* that Israel said...

I do not know what Israel has.


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## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> Learn to read first before you start to scream and lie - Israel is said to have nukes since the 1960's, *not* that Israel said...
> 
> I do not know what Israel has.


The fact that Israel is an aggressor and continues to occupy many territories illegally, it should be under global scrutiny for the better sake of every one.


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## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> The fact that Israel is an aggressor and continues to occupy many territories illegally, it should be under global scrutiny for the better sake of every one.



Israel is not the one which threatens to eliminate Iran and refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the existence of that country, so who is the real aggressor?

BTW, what about Pakistan and its aggressiveness? Pakistan launched three wars against India and terror attacks. Let us start by dismantling Pakistan from nuclear weapons and then move along to discuss other countries.


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## Peregrine

nirreich said:


> Israel is not the one which threatens to eliminate Iran and refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the existence of that country, so who is the real aggressor?
> 
> BTW, what about Pakistan and its aggressiveness? Pakistan launched three wars against India and terror attacks. Let us start by dismantling Pakistan from nuclear weapons and then move along to discuss other countries.


Israel threatens Countries with pre-emptive strikes and carried out surgical strikes as well, which are clear violation of International laws, while it continues to occupies territories illegally and threat other countries, any sane person would see that Iranian threats are justified. 
The thread is not about Pakistan so your troll attempt wont be entertained.


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## nirreich

Peregrine said:


> Israel threatens Countries with pre-emptive strikes and carried out surgical strikes as well, which are clear violation of International laws, while it continues to occupies territories illegally and threat other countries, any sane person would see that Iranian threats are justified.
> The thread is not about Pakistan so your troll attempt wont be entertained.



Where is it said that pre-emptive strikes are a violation of international law? Or surgical strikes? As for the latter they usually meant to minimise the civilian casualties, so how can they be against international law?

As for the subject of this thread, I suggest you read the title carefully: "Time for IAEA to deal with Israeli Nukes? Well, I just replied that Pakistan should be first in line before any deliberation about Israel is taking place.

As for the occupied territories, please indicate to which country they belong and were taken from- Jordan? Egypt? No one (including Muslim countries) ever recognised their control on Gaza and the West Bank, so this territories are under dispute and are not occupied. BTW, Israel offered several times to withdraw from more than 90% of this territories but only with one small condition - that the Palestinians will finally recognise Israel as a Jewish nation state and stop any effort to undermine it. Unfortunately, the Palestinian did not give up their ambitions to destroy Israel and I guess even you can understand why Israel is somewhat reluctant to give its enemies a better platform to destroy it.

As for Iran, you protect its policy to destroy Israel although it has and never had any conflict with Israel, Israel had good relations with Iran until the end of the 1970's. So if Israel has no conflict with Iran how Iran's threats to eliminate Israel are justified?

I strongly recommend that you open your eyes and stop feeding yourself with anti-Israeli propaganda.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Learn to read first before you start to scream and lie - Israel is said to have nukes since the 1960's, *not* that Israel said...
> 
> I do not know what Israel has.



*You don't know what israel has and that is another lie spawned by your zionist twisted mind.*



nirreich said:


> Where is it said that pre-emptive strikes are a violation of international law?



*In that case Iran should not wait to strike the Demona WMD factory pre-emptively, after all, it's legal.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You don't know what israel has and that is another lie spawned by your zionist twisted mind.*
> 
> 
> 
> *In that case Iran should not wait to strike the Demona WMD factory pre-emptively, after all, it's legal.*



Like you cannot distinguish between your right and left you cannot comprehend the difference between what is legal and what is advisable. Well after all you are an anti-Semite, you are not that smart.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Like you cannot distinguish between your right and left you cannot comprehend the difference between what is legal and what is advisable. Well after all you are an anti-Semite, you are not that smart.


*
You said that pre-emptive strikes were legal, did you not? You better start your twisting trick because that's the only thing a zionazi is good at!*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> You said that pre-emptive strikes were legal, did you not? You better start your twisting trick because that's the only thing a zionazi is good at!*



Please elaborate: why pre-emptive strikes are illegal? I am fascinating to see what your reply will be


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Please elaborate: why pre-emptive strikes are illegal? I am fascinating to see what your reply will be


*
If pre-emptive strike is legal for israel it is legal for Iran too and if it is illegal for Iran it is illegal for israel too. Now you decide which to choose.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> If pre-emptive strike is legal for israel it is legal for Iran too and if it is illegal for Iran it is illegal for israel too. Now you decide which to choose.*



You are the one who decided that pre-emptive strike is illegal, not me.

It is not a question of legality, Israel has every right to prevent Iran (a rogue regime which aspire to eliminate Israel) from developing nuclear weapons. Iran can hardly point to any Israeli threat against it - if Iran refrain from calling for the destruction of Israel, stop its nuclear development, and supporting terror organisations attacking Israel it will have nothing to afraid of Israel.

But if Iran pick a fight with Israel, then Israel will indeed retaliate, including by pre-emptive strikes.

Even an anti-Semite like yourself can understand this.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You are the one who decided that pre-emptive strike is illegal, not me.
> 
> It is not a question of legality, Israel has every right to prevent Iran .


*
Yes, for israel and its zionazis legality is not a question because they are the mother and father of illegal business like terrorism, assassinations, land grabbing, robbery, you name it. And for the second part Iran has the same right to destroy the zionazi WMD factory*.

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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Yes, for israel and its zionazis legality is not a question because they are the mother and father of illegal business like terrorism, assassinations, land grabbing, robbery, you name it. And for the second part Iran has the same right to destroy the zionazi WMD factory*.



According to your twisted standards a country can just attack any other country without any good reason. Iran has no cause to attack Israel. Israel has no conflict with Iran.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> According to your twisted standards a country can just attack any other country without any good reason. Iran has no cause to attack Israel. Israel has no conflict with Iran.


*
According to a zionazi like you Iran has no reason to strike israel but israel has every reason to strike Iran, right? Your despicable ways are the reason you and your likes are seen as the satan himself disguised as humans.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> According to a zionazi like you Iran has no reason to strike israel but israel has every reason to strike Iran, right? Your despicable ways are the reason you and your likes are seen as the satan himself disguised as humans.*



Of course Israel has every right to attack Iran - only a blind anti-Semite like you cannot see the obvious (and please try to disprove it, I can use a few laughs):

- Iran's regime is publicly dedicated to the elimination of Israel.

- Iran funds and assist terror organisations to attack Israel and kill as many as innocent Israeli civilians.

- Iran develops nuclear weapons which will enable it to threaten Israel with complete destruction.

What would you do if you in the situation of Israel? Commit suicide?

On the other hand, Israel never threatened Iran, had no conflict with Iran and did not help any third party to hurt Iran - of course with the exception of retaliations to Iran's constant efforts to hurt Israel.

That is why Israel has full prerogative for pre-emptive strike to destroy Iran's nuclear programme while Iran is a terror state which already attack Israel with not a single good reason.


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## Takaavar

nirreich said:


> - Iran's regime is publicly dedicated to the elimination of Israel.
> 
> - Iran funds and assist terror organisations to attack Israel and kill as many as innocent Israeli civilians.
> 
> - Iran develops nuclear weapons which will enable it to threaten Israel with complete destruction.


 
- These sorts of things are not casus belli / act of war, Einstein.

- "Terror organisations"?? Is that BS refers to Hezbollah (which is considered only by US and its dog as "terrorist")? 

- HAHAHAHAA LMAO

Good to see some Zionist-ish logic again


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> - These sorts of things are not casus belli / act of war, Einstein.
> 
> - "Terror organisations"?? Is that BS refers to Hezbollah (which is considered only by US and its dog as "terrorist")?
> 
> - HAHAHAHAA LMAO
> 
> Good to see some Zionist-ish logic again



Please specify what is an act of war if not a country constantly calling for your destruction and doing whatever it can to implement its declarations. Israel has all the right the defend itself including by launching a pre-emptive strike against Iran's nuclear programme.


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## Takaavar

nirreich said:


> Please specify what is an act of war if not a country constantly calling for your destruction and doing whatever it can to implement its declarations. Israel has all the right the defend itself including by launching a pre-emptive strike against Iran's nuclear programme.


US has also publicly and multiple times threatened to bomb Iran. Israel has also threatened to destruct our nuclear sites because of bunch of speculations, what about that?
I usually see in forums etc when Iranian govt says something everyone ridicule it and say they shouldn't be taken seriously etc. But when it comes to this claim ...
This is 21th century not Iron Age, if you destruct a country, you have destructed your own too.


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> US has also publicly and multiple times threatened to bomb Iran. Israel has also threatened to destruct our nuclear sites because of bunch of speculations, what about that?
> I usually see in forums etc when Iranian govt says something everyone ridicule it and say they shouldn't be taken seriously etc. But when it comes to this claim ...
> This is 21th century not Iron Age, if you destruct a country, you have destructed your own too.



What you said does not make sense - I am not talking about the US and Iran, but on Israel which is not responsible for the US policy. Israel takes Iran's threats very seriously and has the full right not to let Iran execute them and destroy Israel.


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## Takaavar

nirreich said:


> What you said does not make sense - I am not talking about the US and Iran, but on Israel which is not responsible for the US policy. Israel takes Iran's threats very seriously and has the full right not to let Iran execute them and destroy Israel.


Cool, we ourselves don't take what we say seriously! Again, if Iran decide to destroy Israel, though it is not even capable of that, then the world or at least west will not just sit and watch it. Pressuring on Israel through proxy wars yeah but claiming that Iran want to destroy the country with nukes is just ridiculous (how that suppose to benefit anyone?!)


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> Cool, we ourselves don't take what we say seriously! Again, if Iran decide to destroy Israel, though it is not even capable of that, then the world or at least west will not just sit and watch it. Pressuring on Israel through proxy wars yeah but claiming that Iran want to destroy the country with nukes is just ridiculous (how that suppose to benefit anyone?!)



Maybe that is ridiculous but that is what the Iranians constantly threatening to do, Israel does not want to sit and wait while they will have the option to abide by their words.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Of course Israel has every right to attack Iran - only a blind anti-Semite like you cannot see the obvious (and please try to disprove it, I can use a few laughs):
> 
> - Iran's regime is publicly dedicated to the elimination of Israel.



*Israel is a terror entity having links with the Jandallah terrorists in Iran and therefore, I can't blame Iran for wishing the termination of the terorist state of israel.*



nirreich said:


> Iran funds and assist terror organisations to attack Israel and kill as many as innocent Israeli civilians.



*It is israel that funds and trains terrorists in Iran and Pakistan.*



nirreich said:


> Iran develops nuclear weapons which will enable it to threaten Israel with complete destruction.



*A zionist way of diverting attention from the zionist nuclear threat.*





nirreich said:


> On the other hand, Israel never threatened Iran,


*
Now, that's a regular zionazi lie, Israel is constantly threatening to bomb Iran.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Israel is a terror entity having links with the Jandallah terrorists in Iran and therefore, I can't blame Iran for wishing the termination of the terorist state of israel.*
> 
> 
> 
> *It is israel that funds and trains terrorists in Iran and Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> 
> *A zionist way of diverting attention from the zionist nuclear threat.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Now, that's a regular zionazi lie, Israel is constantly threatening to bomb Iran.*



You babbled so much about connections between Israel and terror organisations in Iran and Pakistan, so of course you have so many evidence to support your claim that you did not publish them in fear that PDF servers could not handle so much information... Well, until you do that you are a layer of the worst kind - a stupid one.

I forgot you are an anti-Semite, so we need to take it slowly - do you disproof the fact that Iran's regime wants to destroy Israel?


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## Takaavar

Jundallah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You babbled so much about connections between Israel and terror organisations in Iran and Pakistan, so of course you have so many evidence to support your claim that you did not publish them in fear that PDF servers could not handle so much information... Well, until you do that you are a layer of the worst kind - a stupid one.
> 
> I forgot you are an anti-Semite, so we need to take it slowly - do you disproof the fact that Iran's regime wants to destroy Israel?



*Zionazi like you cannot disproof that israel is constantly threatening to bomb Iran and therefore Iran has every right to bomb the zionazi WMD factory at Dimona.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Zionazi like you cannot disproof that israel is constantly threatening to bomb Iran and therefore Iran has every right to bomb the zionazi WMD factory at Dimona.*



Good, we are in agreement that Iran wants to destroy Israel.

Now, for the second part - please explain why Israel wants to bomb Iran, if not because Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Good, we are in agreement that Iran wants to destroy Israel.
> 
> Now, for the second part - please explain why Israel wants to bomb Iran, if not because Iran wants to destroy Israel and develops nuclear weapons.



*Zionazis are always twisting the truth, actually the world agrees that israel plans to destroy Iran. Now, for the second part explain why Iran wants to bomb the Dimona WMD factory?*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Zionazis are always twisting the truth, actually the world agrees that israel plans to destroy Iran. Now, for the second part explain why Iran wants to bomb the Dimona WMD factory?*



Please elaborate who on earth think Israel is planning to destroy Iran, except of a bunch of anti-Semite loonies such as yourself?

And you did not answer my question - what Israel has against Iran, beside Iran's dedication to destroy Israel?


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Please elaborate who on earth think Israel is planning to destroy Iran, except of a bunch of anti-Semite loonies such as yourself?


*
The answer is everybody except a bunch of zionazis like you.*



nirreich said:


> And you did not answer my question - what Israel has against Iran, beside Iran's dedication to destroy Israel?


*
Iran is not dedicated to destroy israel, that's a zionazi propaganda. Iran is dedicated to strike back if israel dares to attack Iran, is it too hard to accept for a lying zionazi?*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The answer is everybody except a bunch of zionazis like you.*
> 
> 
> *
> Iran is not dedicated to destroy israel, that's a zionazi propaganda. Iran is dedicated to strike back if israel dares to attack Iran, is it too hard to accept for a lying zionazi?*



Please indicate one name of a respected national leader (President, PM, cabinet minister) outside the loony countries (e.g. Iran, Venezuela, North Korea) that said he believe that Israel wants to destroy Iran. If you find one I will convert to Islam.

If Iran is not dedicated to the destruction of Israel perhaps you be kind and clarify the following statement from the Iranian regime mouthpiece:

&#8220;The US seeks to save the Zionist regime (Israel) with deceit. *Everybody should know that the survival of the Zionist regime and its existence even in one span of the Palestinian soil is like preserving a cancerous tumor in the body of regional nations, and [is] a permanent threat against them,&#8221;* *said President Ahmadinejad* in the Iranian city of Qom on Thursday. He added that *the Iranian people and world nations are awakened and demand justice, freedom and the complete elimination of Israel,* IRNA reported. 

PressTV - Iran warns of US plots to save Israel

As an anti-Semite you think like that too, so why you try to pretend Iran does not desire to destroy Israel?



T-Rex said:


> *
> The answer is everybody except a bunch of zionazis like you.*
> 
> 
> *
> Iran is not dedicated to destroy israel, that's a zionazi propaganda. Iran is dedicated to strike back if israel dares to attack Iran, is it too hard to accept for a lying zionazi?*



Please indicate one name of a respected national leader (President, PM, cabinet minister) outside the loony countries (e.g. Iran, Venezuela, North Korea) that said he believe that Israel wants to destroy Iran. If you find one I will convert to Islam.

If Iran is not dedicated to the destruction of Israel perhaps you be kind and clarify the following statement from the Iranian regime mouthpiece:

The US seeks to save the Zionist regime (Israel) with deceit. *Everybody should know that the survival of the Zionist regime and its existence even in one span of the Palestinian soil is like preserving a cancerous tumor in the body of regional nations, and [is] a permanent threat against them,* *said President Ahmadinejad* in the Iranian city of Qom on Thursday. He added that *the Iranian people and world nations are awakened and demand justice, freedom and the complete elimination of Israel,* IRNA reported. 

PressTV - Iran warns of US plots to save Israel

As an anti-Semite you think like that too, so why you try to pretend Iran does not desire to destroy Israel?


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## Takaavar

Israel is a regim that is slaughtering innocents and grabbing lands. Not even Muslims, this is right of every human to stop it.


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> Israel is a regim that is slaughtering innocents and grabbing lands. Not even Muslims, this is right of every human to stop it.



If you are so concerned about a regime slaughtering innocent people then you should support the prevention of Iran to become a nuclear weapons state. BTW, Israel never did this kind of acts.


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## Takaavar

nirreich said:


> If you are so concerned about a regime slaughtering innocent people then you should support the prevention of Iran to become a nuclear weapons state. BTW, Israel never did this kind of acts.


 
1) There is NO evidence that Iran is going to become a nuclear weapons state. 2) Even if Iran become a nuclear weapons state, that's it's right, because Israel and US have nukes. Power should be balanced, and this is the only way to see a just peace in the region.
Surely an Israeli will never accept Israel did them.


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> 1) There is NO evidence that Iran is going to become a nuclear weapons state. 2) Even if Iran become a nuclear weapons state, that's it's right, because Israel and US have nukes.
> Surely an Israeli will never accept Israel did them.



You need to decide: either you claim that Iran does not want nukes or that it does. You cannot say the same simultaneously.

You assumption is wrong: Iran signed the NPT and gave international commitments that it will not develop nuclear weapons. Under the NPT the US is allowed to have nukes and Iran accepted it when it signed the NPT. Israel never signed the NPT and thus is not committed no to develop nukes. Iran stayed in the NPT although Israel did not sign it so this excuses about the US and Israel are invalid.


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## Takaavar

nirreich said:


> You need to decide: either you claim that Iran does not want nukes or that it does. You cannot say the same simultaneously.
> 
> You assumption is wrong: Iran signed the NPT and gave international commitments that it will not develop nuclear weapons. Under the NPT the US is allowed to have nukes and Iran accepted it when it signed the NPT. Israel never signed the NPT and thus is not committed no to develop nukes. Iran stayed in the NPT although Israel did not sign it so this excuses about the US and Israel are invalid.


 
Ok so I can say, this is right of Iran to have WMD except nukes, because Israel and US have WMD including nukes.


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## nirreich

Takaavar said:


> Ok so I can say, this is right of Iran to have WMD except nukes, because Israel and US have WMD including nukes.



So you do not think Iran has a right to have nukes? Iran also signed the CWC (Chemical War Convention) so it is not allowed to have other WMD either.

If you agree that Iran has no right to have nukes, then you should support the current International efforts to pressurise Iran to stop its violations of the NPT and its agreements with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and be fully transparent and stop all its unauthorised nuclear activities until it answers all the questions about the violations it has been committed.


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> You need to decide: either you claim that Iran does not want nukes or that it does. You cannot say the same simultaneously.


*
Listen, mr. zionazi, as you don't know if israel has nukes or not, this man doesn't know if Iran has nukes or not. We know that zionazis like you cannot breathe properly without an ounce of hypocrisy in their breath but it's a stupid way to publicly display your hypocrisy.*



nirreich said:


> You assumption is wrong: Iran signed the NPT and gave international commitments that it will not develop nuclear weapons. Under the NPT the US is allowed to have nukes and Iran accepted it when it signed the NPT. Israel never signed the NPT and thus is not committed no to develop nukes. Iran stayed in the NPT although Israel did not sign it so this excuses about the US and Israel are invalid.


*
Okay, we'll advice Iran to get out of the NPT, after all, it is the most grotesque form of discrimination in this age of science and human development.*


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Listen, mr. zionazi, as you don't know if israel has nukes or not, this man doesn't know if Iran has nukes or not. We know that zionazis like you cannot breathe properly without an ounce of hypocrisy in their breath but it's a stupid way to publicly display your hypocrisy.*
> 
> 
> *
> Okay, we'll advice Iran to get out of the NPT, after all, it is the most grotesque form of discrimination in this age of science and human development.*



The little anti-Semite continue with his hysteric running away from any discussion on his stupid opinions:

Please indicate one name of a respected national leader (President, PM, cabinet minister) outside the loony countries (e.g. Iran, Venezuela, North Korea) that said he believe that Israel wants to destroy Iran. If you find one I will convert to Islam.

If Iran is not dedicated to the destruction of Israel perhaps you be kind and clarify the following statement from the Iranian regime mouthpiece:

&#8220;The US seeks to save the Zionist regime (Israel) with deceit. Everybody should know that the survival of the Zionist regime and its existence even in one span of the Palestinian soil is like preserving a cancerous tumor in the body of regional nations, and [is] a permanent threat against them,&#8221; said President Ahmadinejad in the Iranian city of Qom on Thursday. He added that the Iranian people and world nations are awakened and demand justice, freedom and the complete elimination of Israel, IRNA reported. 

PressTV - Iran warns of US plots to save Israel

As an anti-Semite you think like that too, so why you try to pretend Iran does not desire to destroy Israel?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-time-iaea-deal-israeli-nukes-61.html#ixzz1wX44Mo00


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## killerx

yea you are say to posponde the ww3 if israeli nuke are accounted by IAEA


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## nirreich

killerx said:


> yea you are say to posponde the ww3 if israeli nuke are accounted by IAEA



Is Pakistan ready to by under IAEA inspection? This is just hypocrisy


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## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The little anti-Semite continue with his hysteric running away from any discussion on his stupid opinions:
> 
> Please indicate one name of a respected national leader (President, PM, cabinet minister) outside the loony countries (e.g. Iran, Venezuela, North Korea) that said he believe that Israel wants to destroy Iran. If you find one I will convert to Islam.
> 
> If Iran is not dedicated to the destruction of Israel perhaps you be kind and clarify the following statement from the Iranian regime mouthpiece:
> 
> &#8220;The US seeks to save the Zionist regime (Israel) with deceit. Everybody should know that the survival of the Zionist regime and its existence even in one span of the Palestinian soil is like preserving a cancerous tumor in the body of regional nations, and [is] a permanent threat against them,&#8221; said President Ahmadinejad in the Iranian city of Qom on Thursday. He added that the Iranian people and world nations are awakened and demand justice, freedom and the complete elimination of Israel, IRNA reported.
> 
> PressTV - Iran warns of US plots to save Israel
> 
> As an anti-Semite you think like that too, so why you try to pretend Iran does not desire to destroy Israel?
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-time-iaea-deal-israeli-nukes-61.html#ixzz1wX44Mo00


*
As usual, the zionazi decides to regurgitate his sh1t when he cannot reply to what is said about him. As for respected world leaders, we don't consider certified liars like bush and his clan as respectable leaders. Their opinion carries weight in the sh1thole of Tel Aviv, not where human beings live. *


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## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> As usual, the zionazi decides to regurgitate his sh1t when he cannot reply to what is said about him. As for respected world leaders, we don't consider certified liars like bush and his clan as respectable leaders. Their opinion carries weight in the sh1thole of Tel Aviv, not where human beings live. *



I am asking very simple questions and you fail again and again to answer them. You cannot defend even your arguments.

Why you do not just say? I hate the Jews and Israel regardless of what they do or of any logic. Until Israel is wipe off the map nothing would satisfy you and your kind. Even if Israel will have no nuclear weapons it will not matter.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> I am asking very simple questions and you fail again and again to answer them. You cannot defend even your arguments.
> 
> Why you do not just say? I hate the Jews and Israel regardless of what they do or of any logic. Until Israel is wipe off the map nothing would satisfy you and your kind. Even if Israel will have no nuclear weapons it will not matter.



*Even if I don't say it, you've said it for me as you and your likes have been doing it for ages and slandering people's good names. You are a true zionazi, congratulations!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Even if I don't say it, you've said it for me as you and your likes have been doing it for ages and slandering people's good names. You are a true zionazi, congratulations!*



So your hatred towards Israel knows no boundaries and you are incapable to handle any rationale or any logical arguments. live in your hate and be dissent enough to admit it: it does not matter if Israel has or has no nuclear weapons, you will still aspire for its destruction like a good anti-Semite. It got nothing do to if Israel right or wrong.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> So your hatred towards Israel knows no boundaries and you are incapable to handle any rationale or any logical arguments. live in your hate and be dissent enough to admit it: it does not matter if Israel has or has no nuclear weapons, you will still aspire for its destruction like a good anti-Semite. It got nothing do to if Israel right or wrong.


*
A zionaz's hatred towards those who expose their lies, deceits and hypocrisy knows no bounds, they call their lies and deceits as rational thinking. A zionazi keeps twisting the facts, hoping that somehow his zionazi ways will prevail. This zionazi called nireich can blabber forever and appropriate replies will keep hitting him forever. Israel's WMDs factories must be bombed to stone age.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> A zionaz's hatred towards those who expose their lies, deceits and hypocrisy knows no bounds, they call their lies and deceits as rational thinking. A zionazi keeps twisting the facts, hoping that somehow his zionazi ways will prevail. This zionazi called nireich can blabber forever and appropriate replies will keep hitting him forever. Israel's WMDs factories must be bombed to stone age.*



Keep spreading your lies and hatred, you are doing Israel a great service by continuing with your trolling - this is how an anti-Semite behave and this is what he is worth.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Keep spreading your lies and hatred, you are doing Israel a great service by continuing with your trolling - this is how an anti-Semite behave and this is what he is worth.


*
How can anybody possibly spread lies and hatred when zionazis like you are there to do it round the clock? Look at your ugly face on the mirror and you'll see the zionazi nuclear threat.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> How can anybody possibly spread lies and hatred when zionazis like you are there to do it round the clock? Look at your ugly face on the mirror and you'll see the zionazi nuclear threat.*



Your Anti-Semitism can only compete with your stupidity.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Your Anti-Semitism can only compete with your stupidity.


*
And your satanic nature outperforms Satan himself. Congratulations, but as you know satanic tricks cannot hide the zionazi nuclear threat forever.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> And your satanic nature outperforms Satan himself. Congratulations, but as you know satanic tricks cannot hide the zionazi nuclear threat forever.*



Your help in presenting this issue as a complete nonsense was very valuable, no one except a bunch of loony anti-Semite like you takes this issue seriously.

Again, thank you for your services for the state of Israel. I could not done it without you.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Your help in presenting this issue as a complete nonsense was very valuable, no one except a bunch of loony anti-Semite like you takes this issue seriously.
> 
> Again, thank you for your services for the state of Israel. I could not done it without you.



*Did I not explain to you earlier that everybody but a bunch of despicable zionazis take this zionazi nuclear threat seriously?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Did I not explain to you earlier that everybody but a bunch of despicable zionazis take this zionazi nuclear threat seriously?*



Very funny, my work here is accomplished, except of the anti-Semite loony known as T-Rex no one cares about this issue. Can't you see you are the only one here posting your nonsense?

Thank you for your valuable help in damaging this thread in an irreversible way. I could not done it without you.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Very funny, my work here is accomplished, except of the anti-Semite loony known as T-Rex no one cares about this issue. Can't you see you are the only one here posting your nonsense?



*Must I copy and paste the posts of other members to show what a liar you are? Satanic worshippers have no shame and you're one true disciple of satan.*



nirreich said:


> Thank you for your valuable help in damaging this thread in an irreversible way. I could not done it without you.


*
You say your mission is accomplished but somehow you keep spewing out your lies and deceit. Now, that's another proof that your satanic mission is never to see the light of success but you're too arrogant and too stupid to realise that fact.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Must I copy and paste the posts of other members to show what a liar you are? Satanic worshippers have no shame and you're one true disciple of satan.*
> 
> 
> *
> You say your mission is accomplished but somehow you keep spewing out your lies and deceit. Now, that's another proof that your satanic mission is never to see the light of success but you're too arrogant and too stupid to realise that fact.*



Oh come on, are you blind in addition of being anti-Semite? I am the only one reading your replies, there was no one here for ages and the ones who replied run away quickly because of your stupidity.

Thank you for killing this thread completely, everybody has no interest to write about nuclear Israel as long as you continue with your nonsense.

Carry on the good job, you are doing Israel a tremendous good service.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Oh come on, are you blind in addition of being anti-Semite? I am the only one reading your replies, there was no one here for ages and the ones who replied run away quickly because of your stupidity.
> 
> Thank you for killing this thread completely, everybody has no interest to write about nuclear Israel as long as you continue with your nonsense.
> 
> Carry on the good job, you are doing Israel a tremendous good service.



*Twisting your own lies, now you say they have run away, it means they were here. Is this all you have to hide the zionazi nuclear threat of israel?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Twisting your own lies, now you say they have run away, it means they were here. Is this all you have to hide the zionazi nuclear threat of israel?*



Please continue to talk to yourself, can you hear the echo? 

Israel needs more good friends like you who do the job for it and promote its interests. Thank you!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Please continue to talk to yourself, can you hear the echo?
> 
> Israel needs more good friends like you who do the job for it and promote its interests. Thank you!



*So, you think I'm a good friend of israel. Good, now leave the fate of the zionazi nukes to me on this forum, I'll take good care of it! Something tells me you won't stick to your words.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *So, you think I'm a good friend of israel. Good, now leave the fate of the zionazi nukes to me on this forum, I'll take good care of it! Something tells me you won't stick to your words.*



If you have not noticed I left it to you and now the thread is dead, no one is interested in this issue any more.

You are one of Israel's best friends, thank you for your precious assistance.


----------



## SOHEIL

*Hi zion Troll*


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> If you have not noticed I left it to you and now the thread is dead, no one is interested in this issue any more.
> 
> You are one of Israel's best friends, thank you for your precious assistance.


*
If the thread is dead how is it that you keep posting? Do zionazis always contradict what they say? Anyway, the threat of the zionazi nukes is real and it needs to be bombed to oblivion!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> If the thread is dead how is it that you keep posting? Do zionazis always contradict what they say? Anyway, the threat of the zionazi nukes is real and it needs to be bombed to oblivion!*



My little anti-Semite, now you are finally convinced that you completely destroyed the discussion on this issue? I waited several days and no one posted anything here.

Thank you for practically closing this thread, you did a great service for Israel.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> My little anti-Semite, now you are finally convinced that you completely destroyed the discussion on this issue? I waited several days and no one posted anything here.
> 
> Thank you for practically closing this thread, you did a great service for Israel.



*Mr. zionazi, you've proven again that the thread is alive and so is the threat of the zionazi nukes!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Mr. zionazi, you've proven again that the thread is alive and so is the threat of the zionazi nukes!*



Both of them are only alive in your fantasies. There is no one here.

Enjoy the rest of your pathetic life.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Both of them are only alive in your fantasies. There is no one here.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your pathetic life.


*
Zionazi liars like you cannot stand the truth for they are the harbingers of hell, like their mater the Satan, they try to tell the world that the truth is fantasy and their lies are reality. I've already told you a thousand times and I'm ready to tell you a million times that your lies and ploys cannot hide the threat of the zionazi nukes!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Zionazi liars like you cannot stand the truth for they are the harbingers of hell, like their mater the Satan, they try to tell the world that the truth is fantasy and their lies are reality. I've already told you a thousand times and I'm ready to tell you a million times that your lies and ploys cannot hide the threat of the zionazi nukes!*



The one who helps to stop the discussion on nuclear Israel is you by destroying this thread, so you have only yourself to blame, do not cry now for what you did.

Anyway, thank you for the good work and I hope you will continue with your ways and you continue to stop more anti-Israeli threads. You have my full support.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> The one who helps to stop the discussion on nuclear Israel is you by destroying this thread, so you have only yourself to blame, do not cry now for what you did.
> 
> Anyway, thank you for the good work and I hope you will continue with your ways and you continue to stop more anti-Israeli threads. You have my full support.


*
Even if you thank me for a million times, your wish isn't going to materialise. The thread will remain as it is, it doesn't matter how you classify it. The thread is here to tell the world about the threat of the zionazi nukes.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> Even if you thank me for a million times, your wish isn't going to materialise. The thread will remain as it is, it doesn't matter how you classify it. The thread is here to tell the world about the threat of the zionazi nukes.*



As you can witness, nobody cares. Enjoy talking to yourself, you pathetic anti-Semite troll.

And thank you - again and again and again.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> As you can witness, nobody cares. Enjoy talking to yourself, you pathetic anti-Semite troll.
> 
> And thank you - again and again and again.


*
The stinky zionazi says I'm talking to myself but I don't miss the response from him. Now, that explains the truth. In the same way he gives out what he intends to hide, the threat of the zionazi nukes!*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *
> The stinky zionazi says I'm talking to myself but I don't miss the response from him. Now, that explains the truth. In the same way he gives out what he intends to hide, the threat of the zionazi nukes!*



Thank you for helping to make this issue so uninterested that no one is coming in here any more although this thread is stick to the first page in the forum.

Your services for Israel are invaluable. Good job!


----------



## airmarshal

Good luck IAEA dealing with Israel!!


----------



## nirreich

airmarshal said:


> Good luck IAEA dealing with Israel!!



They will need it...


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Thank you for helping to make this issue so uninterested that no one is coming in here any more although this thread is stick to the first page in the forum.
> 
> Your services for Israel are invaluable. Good job!



*Let me provide more invaluable service to israel; I suggest that israel opens up its secret nuclear programme to the world community as it demands of Iran.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Let me provide more invaluable service to israel; I suggest that israel opens up its secret nuclear programme to the world community as it demands of Iran.*



Who cares what you suggest, you are only good in talking to yourself.

Demand whatever you want, nobody is interested.

Only a anti-Semite fool like you can be of such a great service to Israel, thank you!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> Who cares what you suggest, you are only good in talking to yourself.
> 
> Demand whatever you want, nobody is interested.
> 
> Only a anti-Semite fool like you can be of such a great service to Israel, thank you!



*You just said that my contribution was 'invaluable', did you not? Must you always contradict yourself? We are not surprised, after all, this is the zionazi way. BTW, don't demand of others what you do not practice! It isn't the 70s or 80s that the world is going to praise your hypocrisy.*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *You just said that my contribution was 'invaluable', did you not? Must you always contradict yourself? We are not surprised, after all, this is the zionazi way. BTW, don't demand of others what you do not practice! It isn't the 70s or 80s that the world is going to praise your hypocrisy.*



We? Who is we? You are here alone, no one cares about this issue or your stupid opinions.

You accomplished the mission single handed: this thread is completely dead, and which country benefited from it? Exactly, Israel.

So again I cannot express the amount of gratitude Israel owe you for your good services, my little anti-Semite.

Keep up the good work, If you want I can give you the details of more threads you can destroy by stopping all discussions.


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> We? Who is we? You are here alone, no one cares about this issue or your stupid opinions.
> 
> You accomplished the mission single handed: this thread is completely dead, and which country benefited from it? Exactly, Israel.
> 
> So again I cannot express the amount of gratitude Israel owe you for your good services, my little anti-Semite.
> 
> Keep up the good work, If you want I can give you the details of more threads you can destroy by stopping all discussions.



*Those who cannot reply logically decide to focus on 'I'or 'we' instead of the content. Pity, pity, pity! Couldn't say anything about your disgusting zionazi hypocrisy, could you?*


----------



## nirreich

T-Rex said:


> *Those who cannot reply logically decide to focus on 'I'or 'we' instead of the content. Pity, pity, pity! Couldn't say anything about your disgusting zionazi hypocrisy, could you?*



What content? There is no content. There is no discussion with a self-obsessed anti-Semite who knows only to talk to himself.

Indeed: pity, pity. However you served the purpose of side-lining anti-Israeli threads. Good for you!


----------



## T-Rex

nirreich said:


> What content? There is no content. There is no discussion with a self-obsessed anti-Semite who knows only to talk to himself.
> 
> Indeed: pity, pity. However you served the purpose of side-lining anti-Israeli threads. Good for you!


*
We know that zionazis cannot read reason, it respects nothing but a stick which Iran is rightly preparing for them and hypocrisy is so deeply rooted in their venomous veins that they cannot for a second think of parting from their despicable ways. Threatening Iran with their zionazi nukes and then telling the world that Iran is threatening them, a satanic mission indeed!*


----------



## lem34

nirreich said:


> What content? There is no content. There is no discussion with a self-obsessed anti-Semite who knows only to talk to himself.
> 
> Indeed: pity, pity. However you served the purpose of side-lining anti-Israeli threads. Good for you!



Two Israeli lies:

1. Anyone who speaks against what they perceive to be right is anti Semitic

2. Israel has a right to exist


----------



## sarthak

nirreich said:


> My little anti-Semite, now you are finally convinced that you completely destroyed the discussion on this issue? I waited several days and no one posted anything here.
> 
> Thank you for practically closing this thread, you did a great service for Israel.



I highly suggest you stop replying to him. He's a bangladeshi after all. Half the world doesn't know that his country even exists. IAEA is basically controlled by western nations who wouldn't take any action against Israel , it's too bad that the anti Semite is too dumb to realise this.


----------



## T-Rex

sarthak said:


> I highly suggest you stop replying to him. He's a bangladeshi after all. Half the world doesn't know that his country even exists.



*I don't understand why some indians are so proud of their ignorance, not only that, every now and then they claim that the world is as ignorant as those slimy indians are. This has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed yet, some morons just cannot resist portraying themselves as donkeys. I didn't know that the donkeys were so revered in india.*


sarthak said:


> IAEA is basically controlled by western nations who wouldn't take any action against Israel , it's too bad that the anti Semite is too dumb to realise this.


*
It means IAEA is a one-eyed fvcker. Those who call the spade a spade are 'anti-Semites' and those who call a spade a Gandhi are champions of israel.*


----------



## Maira La

sarthak said:


> I highly suggest you stop replying to him. He's a bangladeshi after all. *Half the world doesn't know that his country even exists.* IAEA is basically controlled by western nations who wouldn't take any action against Israel , it's too bad that the anti Semite is too dumb to realise this.



*It's ok that half the world don't know we exist. Attention whoring is an Indian thing.*


----------



## mfreak

Well, atleast Israel's nukes aren't pointed at somebody. Nor do they threaten anybody else with it. And they are not under any obligation to not develop weapons. Unlike Iran that signed the NPT. 

BTW I guess Bangladeshis are one of those hateful little people on this forum eh? I see them bust their balls trying to trash every other nation in just about every other thread


----------



## T-Rex

mfreak said:


> Well, atleast Israel's nukes aren't pointed at somebody. Nor do they threaten anybody else with it.



*Really? Did the israelis provide you with the launch codes as well? Indians like you are indeed master a$$-lickers!*



mfreak said:


> BTW I guess Bangladeshis are one of those hateful little people on this forum eh? I see them bust their balls trying to trash every other nation in just about every other thread



*Do you think we give a hoot to what an a$$-licker like you thinks of us?*

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## mfreak

T-Rex said:


> *Really? Did the israelis provide you with the launch codes as well? Indians like you are indeed master a$$-lickers!*
> 
> 
> 
> *Do you think we give a hoot to what an a$$-licker like you thinks of us?*



Why would they provide THEIR launch codes to us? Did you flush that excuse of a brain you have down the can? 

BTW I know you are butt hurt, but you might wanna pull that stick outta your ***. Always remember, that India will be on top. And Bangladesh will wallow in self pity under India's shadow. Not because, we do anything, but because, your culture, attitude and very approach to life is quite sad to say the least. It makes you pathetic individuals who are permanently pissed off, uninteresting and boring that achieve nothing in life, except to blame people around you and to swear at them. All I have to do is just sit on the sidelines and enjoy the show as you make yourself the quintessential assclown representative of BD that you are, hatin on India and Israel (a country that doesnt give a rats *** about you) for no reason.

Grow up kid.

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## Kompromat

Must watch.

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## Kompromat

*What about Israels nuclear weapons?*

Patrick B. Pexton






By Patrick B. Pexton, Published: September 1

*Readers periodically ask me some variation on this question: Why does the press follow every jot and tittle of Irans nuclear program, but we never see any stories about Israels nuclear weapons capability?*

Its a fair question. Going back 10 years into Post archives, I could not find any in-depth reporting on Israeli nuclear capabilities, although national security writer Walter Pincus has touched on it many times in his articles and columns.

I spoke with several experts in the nuclear and nonproliferation fields , and they say that the lack of reporting on Israels nuclear weapons is real  and frustrating. There are some obvious reasons for this, and others that are not so obvious.

First, Israel refuses to acknowledge publicly that it has nuclear weapons. The U.S. government also officially does not acknowledge the existence of such a program. Israels official position, as reiterated by Aaron Sagui, spokesman for the Israeli Embassy here, is that Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East. Israel supports a Middle East free of all weapons of mass destruction following the attainment of peace. The introduce language is purposefully vague, but experts say it means that Israel will not openly test a weapon or declare publicly that it has one.

According to Avner Cohen, a professor at the Monterey Institute of International Studies in California who has written two books about this subject, this formulation was born in the mid-1960s in Israel and was the foundation of a still-secret 1969 agreement between Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir and President Richard Nixon, reached when the United States became sure that Israel possessed nuclear bombs.

President John Kennedy vigorously tried to prevent Israel from obtaining the bomb; President Lyndon Johnson did so to a much lesser extent. But once it was a done deal, Nixon and every president since has not pressed Israel to officially disclose its capabilities or to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty. In return, Israel agrees to keep its nuclear weapons unacknowledged and low-profile.

Because Israel has not signed the treaty, it is under no legal obligation to submit its major nuclear facility at Dimona to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspections. Iran, in contrast, did sign the treaty and thus agrees to periodic inspections. IAEA inspectors are regularly in Iran, but the core of the current dispute is that Tehran is not letting them have unfettered access to all of the countrys nuclear installations.

Furthermore, although Israel has an aggressive media, it still has military censors that can and do prevent publication of material on Israels nuclear forces. Censorship applies to foreign correspondents working there, too.

Another problem, Cohen said, is that relatively few people have overall knowledge of the Israeli program and no one leaks. Those in the program certainly do not leak; it is a crime to do so. The last time an Israeli insider leaked, in 1986, nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu was kidnapped by Israeli agents in Italy, taken home to trial, convicted and served 18 years in jail, much of it in solitary confinement.

And perhaps most important, Americans dont leak about the Israeli nuclear program either. Cohen said information about Israeli nuclear capabilities is some of the most compartmentalized and secret information the U.S. government holds, far more secret than information about Iran, for example. U.S. nuclear researchers, Cohen said, have been reprimanded by their agencies for talking about it openly.

George Perkovich, director of the nuclear policy program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said there are benign and not-so-benign reasons that U.S. officials are so tight-lipped. The United States and Israel are allies and friends. Do you out your friends? he asked.

And not being open about Israels nuclear weapons serves both U.S. and Israeli interests, Perkovich noted. If Israel were public about its nukes, or brandished its program recklessly  as North Korea does every time it wants something  it would put more pressure on Arab states to obtain their own bomb.

Among the less benign reasons U.S. sources dont leak is that it can hurt your career. Said Perkovich: Its like all things having to do with Israel and the United States. If you want to get ahead, you dont talk about it; you dont criticize Israel, you protect Israel. You dont talk about illegal settlements on the West Bank even though everyone knows they are there.

I dont think many people fault Israel for having nuclear weapons. If I were a child of the Holocaust, I, too, would want such a deterrent to annihilation. But that doesnt mean the media shouldnt write about how Israels doomsday weapons affect the Middle East equation. Just because a story is hard to do doesnt mean The Post, and the U.S. press more generally, shouldnt do it.

Patrick B. Pexton can be reached at 202-334-7582 or at ombudsman@washpost.com.


Patrick Pexton: What about Israel&rsquo;s nuclear weapons? - The Washington Post

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## KRAIT

Israel is usng its stage at world scenario. No matter what they do, they have made depth in important countries to get their support and no one challenge their nukes. 

They are supported by US, India, Europe (well we all know the reason) and even China. Not certain about Russia. Those who are against Israel are already against each other, they failed to show unity when Israel comes into picture. Its the failed Foreign policy and mutual cooperation of ME and other nations.

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## mfreak

KRAIT said:


> Israel is usng its stage at world scenario. No matter what they do, they have made depth in important countries to get their support and no one challenge their nukes.
> 
> They are supported by US, India, Europe (well we all know the reason) and even China. Not certain about Russia. Those who are against Israel are already against each other, they failed to show unity when Israel comes into picture. Its the failed Foreign policy and mutual cooperation of ME and other nations.



Very rightly said bro.

The middle east will never prosper unless and until they forget their BS Shia-Sunni conflict and other differences and stand united. 

On the other hand, couple of reasons why Israel can have nukes, while Iran cannot:

1. Israel is a liberal democracy, and therefore its bound by laws and regulations on owning nukes. Iran on the other hand is an Islamic regime, so who knows what those mullahs will do? But then again, I dont think they are THAT dumb, but just saying.

2. Israel never signed the NPT. India and Pakistan both didnt sign it too. So just like we can have nukes, Israel can have nukes too. Iran on the other hand signed the NPT, so they cant have nukes. Its against their international commitment. 

Of course you can argue and say the NPT is an abusive treaty - Hell yeah it is!! Thats why India, Israel and Pakistan made the intelligent decision of not signing the treaty in the first place.


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## Kompromat



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Solomon2

Aeronaut said:


>


Aeronaut, please provide the link.


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## Hasbara Buster

T-Rex said:


> *
> We know that zionazis cannot read reason, it respects nothing but a stick which Iran is rightly preparing for them and hypocrisy is so deeply rooted in their venomous veins that they cannot for a second think of parting from their despicable ways. Threatening Iran with their zionazi nukes and then telling the world that Iran is threatening them, a satanic mission indeed!*



God is great indeed and this verse proves it:

_*"When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"*_

-Qur'an


----------



## Reashot Xigwin

mfreak said:


> Well, atleast Israel's nukes aren't pointed at somebody. Nor do they threaten anybody else with it. And they are not under any obligation to not develop weapons. Unlike Iran that signed the NPT.
> 
> BTW I guess Bangladeshis are one of those hateful little people on this forum eh? I see them bust their balls trying to trash every other nation in just about every other thread




google the Samson option

buy & read the book the Samson option by Seymour Hersh (available in your local amazon bookstore) 

MORDECHAI VANUNU suffer 18 years in confinement trying to warn the world of Israeli WMD. This is a serious matter Israel have Nukes without signing the NPT & denies access to observers which are illegal. The same should be said to Pakistan & India... Gandhi must be rolling in his grave


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## Reashot Xigwin

mfreak said:


> Very rightly said bro.
> 
> The middle east will never prosper unless and until they forget their BS Shia-Sunni conflict and other differences and stand united.
> 
> On the other hand, couple of reasons why Israel can have nukes, while Iran cannot:
> 
> 1. Israel is a liberal democracy, and therefore its bound by laws and regulations on owning nukes. Iran on the other hand is an Islamic regime, so who knows what those mullahs will do? But then again, I dont think they are THAT dumb, but just saying.
> 
> 2. Israel never signed the NPT. India and Pakistan both didnt sign it too. So just like we can have nukes, Israel can have nukes too. Iran on the other hand signed the NPT, so they cant have nukes. Its against their international commitment.
> 
> Of course you can argue and say the NPT is an abusive treaty - Hell yeah it is!! Thats why India, Israel and Pakistan made the intelligent decision of not signing the treaty in the first place.



1. Israel is a "Jewish Democracy" hardly a liberal democracy the same can be said to Iran "Islamic Republic"

2. Iran doesn't have the intention of pursuing Nuclear weapons & neither country shouldn't pursue one to begin with. The treaty exist for things like this


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## PeaceGen

Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.

1: MAD principle prevents wars fought with bullets, knives, chemical weapons and biological weapons

2: MAD weaponry asymetry (such as the CURRENT nuclear weapons balance, INCLUDING the fact that Israel has nukes and Iran can't have them) prevents a nuclear arms race where even more foolish (terrorist) muslims would eventually get their hands on, and use, nukes as a tool of revenge (even though their emotions might be justified in the eyes of Allah and The Prophet Mohammed and their Angels of War) against large numbers of INNOCENT people who DO NOT DESIRE their government making war in faraway lands when they don't need to.

3: Muslims escalated things when they extorted the west with ultra-high prices for oil in the 1970s (iirc). What you got was more interference in your affairs, and you muslims responded with terrorism. You now feel the extent of our western resolve, WE (of NATO) WILL NOT ALLOW MUSLIMS TO UPSET THE WEAPONS BALANCE OF GEO-POLITICAL POWER. Nor China, Nor Russia, for that matter. But at least the Russians and Chinese governments are on the same page sorta as NATO. A multi-polar geo-political system is IN EFFECT TODAY and I personally will try to protect that multi-polar reality here on Earth till the day I die of old age.

4: Muslims will see their interests and wishes and culture best protected through VERY LONG-TERM PATIENCE and POLITE POLITICAL DEBATE

Once again, you people here claim to be smart folks right? Then actually BE SMART. AVOID WAR AT ALL COSTS.

Bye for now,
peacefan

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## Tshering22

peacefan said:


> Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.



It is not about jealousy; some countries in the belt just want to point and ask, "hey he has the candy, I should have the candy too."

Even though Pakistan has nukes, apparently that is not satisfactory to the group surprisingly.



> 1: MAD principle prevents wars fought with bullets, knives, chemical weapons and biological weapons



That is your and our perspective. Theirs is that when they get to use it against Israel. 



> 2: MAD weaponry asymetry (such as the CURRENT nuclear weapons balance, INCLUDING the fact that Israel has nukes and Iran can't have them) prevents a nuclear arms race where even more foolish (terrorist) muslims would eventually get their hands on, and use, nukes as a tool of revenge (even though their emotions might be justified in the eyes of Allah and The Prophet Mohammed and their Angels of War) against large numbers of INNOCENT people who DO NOT DESIRE their government making war in faraway lands when they don't need to.



You nailed it perfectly well.




> 4: Muslims will see their interests and wishes and culture best protected through *VERY LONG-TERM PATIENCE and POLITE POLITICAL DEBATE*



What you're talking is like trying to have regular snow storms over Sahara desert.



> Once again, you people here claim to be smart folks right? Then actually BE SMART. AVOID WAR AT ALL COSTS.



Don't bother. We really tried to tell our dear hosts here for 50+ years. They didn't listen to us and instead wen on 3 major wars and 2 conflicts for nothing.

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## Kompromat




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## T-123456

peacefan said:


> Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.
> 
> 1: MAD principle prevents wars fought with bullets, knives, chemical weapons and biological weapons
> 
> 2: MAD weaponry asymetry (such as the CURRENT nuclear weapons balance, INCLUDING the fact that Israel has nukes and Iran can't have them) prevents a nuclear arms race where even more foolish (terrorist) muslims would eventually get their hands on, and use, nukes as a tool of revenge (even though their emotions might be justified in the eyes of Allah and The Prophet Mohammed and their Angels of War) against large numbers of INNOCENT people who DO NOT DESIRE their government making war in faraway lands when they don't need to.
> 
> 3: Muslims escalated things when they extorted the west with ultra-high prices for oil in the 1970s (iirc). What you got was more interference in your affairs, and you muslims responded with terrorism. You now feel the extent of our western resolve, WE (of NATO) WILL NOT ALLOW MUSLIMS TO UPSET THE WEAPONS BALANCE OF GEO-POLITICAL POWER. Nor China, Nor Russia, for that matter. But at least the Russians and Chinese governments are on the same page sorta as NATO. A multi-polar geo-political system is IN EFFECT TODAY and I personally will try to protect that multi-polar reality here on Earth till the day I die of old age.
> 
> 4: Muslims will see their interests and wishes and culture best protected through VERY LONG-TERM PATIENCE and POLITE POLITICAL DEBATE
> 
> Once again, you people here claim to be smart folks right? Then actually BE SMART. AVOID WAR AT ALL COSTS.
> 
> Bye for now,
> peacefan






Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
I quote;


Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
Why the hell you using the word muslims?
Just call the people by name,or dont you see who does what?
Ate so many dutch cheese that you cant see a difference kuttekop?


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## T-Rex

T-123456 said:


> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
> I quote;
> 
> 
> Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
> Why the hell you using the word muslims?
> Just call the people by name,or dont you see who does what?
> Ate so many dutch cheese that you cant see a difference kuttekop?



*We read the comments of the peace loving zionazi intellectuals because we're 'intolerant fools' but the zionazi puppets cannot take the pain of reading our views because they are very tolerant 'human beings'!*


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## Kompromat




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## PacificBeach

T-123456 said:


> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
> I quote;
> 
> 
> Jeez, I don't even need to read this thread. I have seen it before. Muslim fools jealous of Israeli nukes.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53979-iaea-hypocrisy-israeli-nukes-66.html#ixzz2FghfB66r
> Why the hell you using the word muslims?
> Just call the people by name,or dont you see who does what?
> Ate so many dutch cheese that you cant see a difference kuttekop?



I think as being from "the fag capital of the world" he is used to being called names. He is just doing what others are doing to Dutch while calling them names...


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## PeaceGen

Another muslim tactic; reduce an argument to a kinder-garten name-calling fight...

I call you best Muslims fools out of sheer frustration with your lack of basic understanding of the actual art of warfare, and you resort to counter-name calling. That's not the way to win political debate, Muslims. Introspection after valid critiques, is.


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## PeaceGen

T-Rex said:


> *We read the comments of the peace loving zionazi intellectuals because we're 'intolerant fools' but the zionazi puppets cannot take the pain of reading our views because they are very tolerant 'human beings'!*



I have read Muslims' views, and I'm just not very impressed with them so far. But you and any Muslim here may try again. I'm up for it. I'll be gentle


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## Hyperion

Everyone.. get this straight in your heads... NOTHING is fair in the world..... NOTHING........ ABSOLUTELY NOTHING....... if you are not smart enough and can't think decades ahead, then you have no right to exist.


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## PeaceGen

Hyperion said:


> Everyone.. get this straight in your heads... NOTHING is fair in the world..... NOTHING........ ABSOLUTELY NOTHING....... if you are not smart enough and can't think decades ahead, then you have no right to exist.



I'm truely sorry you have to feel this way..

Things here as a white man in Holland are better, but I agree, not everything is fair in the world.

I hope to make things a little bit fairer for those who suffer greater problems than I do myself..


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## nirreich

Aeronaut said:


>



Israel should let IAEA inspectors get into its nuclear facilities...

...exactly one day after Pakistan let them get into the KRL and its nuclear weapons storage.


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## raptor22

nirreich said:


> Israel should let IAEA inspectors get into its nuclear facilities...
> 
> ...exactly one day after Pakistan let them get into the KRL and its nuclear weapons storage.



Or you can go after Iran, it's not that much hard to initial NPT and put your facilities under IAEA's inspectors control, then your statesmen's fiery and inflammatory speeches about other signatories of NPT and their peaceful nuclear programs would be more credible, believe me.


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## nirreich

raptor22 said:


> Or you can go after Iran, it's not that much hard to initial NPT and put your facilities under IAEA's inspectors control, then your statesmen's fiery and inflammatory speeches about other signatories of NPT and their peaceful nuclear programs would be more credible, believe me.



Israel was honest and did not sign the NPT and deceived the world. Iran joined the NPT, received access to nuclear technology from the IAEA and other nuclear countries (like Russia and China) and lied and deceived everyone - used the assistance to develop a nuclear weapons programme which violates Iran's commitment to the NPT. Now, Iran refuses to give the IAEA full access to all its nuclear facilities and to be transparent regarding its nuclear weapons activities - again in violation to its international declarations.

Hence, Iran is definitely a worst example for a country which cheats the world in order to develop nuclear weapons and Israel should not follow the Iranian path.


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## raptor22

nirreich said:


> Israel was honest and did not sign the NPT and deceived the world. Iran joined the NPT, received access to nuclear technology from the IAEA and other nuclear countries (like Russia and China)



We didn't receive the so-called nuclear technology neither from China nor Russia, when Russia halted building our first nuclear power plant i.e Busher for at least 18 years which is merely aimed to produce electricity under the control of IAEA, when they didn't sell us S-300 missile system, even they refused to send a satellite into orbit for us, how do you expect them to give us such a technology? be sure Russia doesn't want to see a nuclear Iran, about IAEA it's never helped us, on the contrary, it's done everything to refrain us from enjoying all our rights under NPT I mean as a watchdog for western powers.

About israel:

You got helps from France and the U.S, and you kept it as a secret for decades to make a bomb, that's why you didn't sign NPT, that's why you couldn't call yourself honest.




nirreich said:


> and lied and deceived everyone - used the assistance to develop a nuclear weapons programme which violates Iran's commitment to the NPT.




Which nuclear weapon? where is it? when on earth we violated our commitments and obligations? As far as I know your prime minister Bibi has been talking on an Iranian hypothetical nuclear weapon since 1992, where is that bomb? where is your evidence to back your baseless claim?

A mountain of accusations and allegations was fabricated by western countries against us, all of them have been answered by Iran, the only thing that has remained is a imaginary Laptop which has never been showed to us.



nirreich said:


> Now, Iran refuses to give the IAEA full access to all its nuclear facilities and to be transparent regarding its nuclear weapons activities - again in violation to its international declarations.



All Iran's nuclear facilities that Iran is obliged to inform IAEA of them (base on safeguard) are already under control of IAEA (7/24 with cameras, human inspections regular (more than 7000 man per hour) or intrusive (at least 105 times) and nothing has been found so far to indicates Iran crossed the line, on the other hand agency has asked Iran to get access and visit Parchin site (a military site), which is not related to our nuclear program, base on NPT IAEA could not ask to visit it, it's interesting that they've visited it twice before in 2005 and 2006 to find bomb there as they'd been claiming before that like what they do now and instead there found toilets, this time we've asked them why do you want to visit it? base on which evidence? they said we think there might be a probable type of program running there which we guess it could be related to your nuclear program, funny.



nirreich said:


> Hence, Iran is definitely a worst example for a country which cheats the world in order to develop nuclear weapons and Israel should not follow the Iranian path.



First of all you have nuke, Iran doesn't.
You are not a signatory of NPT, Iran is.
Your programs is not under the control of IAEA, Iran's program is.


I suggest u to watch this clip"

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## bala

nirreich said:


> Israel was honest and did not sign the NPT and deceived the world. Iran joined the NPT, received access to nuclear technology from the IAEA and other nuclear countries (like Russia and China) and lied and deceived everyone - used the assistance to develop a nuclear weapons programme which violates Iran's commitment to the NPT. Now, Iran refuses to give the IAEA full access to all its nuclear facilities and to be transparent regarding its nuclear weapons activities - again in violation to its international declarations.
> 
> Hence, Iran is definitely a worst example for a country which cheats the world in order to develop nuclear weapons and Israel should not follow the Iranian path.



Why does your country build illegal settlements? And it keeps quiet about it? Why does the US not do anything or the UN do anything when Israhell kicks Gazans out of their homes and throws them in wall pit?

And when flotilla aids go these people why do your IOF (israelli Offensive Forces) kill these people? 

Then measely apologises to them 3 years later?

Iran doesnt do that. You keep mentioning how Iran kills people. Hold on, US still has the death penalty around, the UK doesnt neither do France, Germany or Russia, why does the US have it yet Iran and the ME Muslim countries aren't allowed it?

You dont hear of any rapists emerging in Iran going around raping and killing prossies, *nor do you hear every month a school massacre of killing children and teachers - its like someone else wants to break to the record each month...*


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## 500

bala said:


> Why does the US not do anything or the UN do anything when Israhell kicks Gazans out of their homes and throws them in wall pit?


lolwut?

You should quit smoking that thing.


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## nirreich

raptor22 said:


> We didn't receive the so-called nuclear technology neither from China nor Russia, when Russia halted building our first nuclear power plant i.e Busher for at least 18 years which is merely aimed to produce electricity under the control of IAEA, when they didn't sell us S-300 missile system, even they refused to send a satellite into orbit for us, how do you expect them to give us such a technology? be sure Russia doesn't want to see a nuclear Iran, about IAEA it's never helped us, on the contrary, it's done everything to refrain us from enjoying all our rights under NPT I mean as a watchdog for western powers.
> 
> About israel:
> 
> You got helps from France and the U.S, and you kept it as a secret for decades to make a bomb, that's why you didn't sign NPT, that's why you couldn't call yourself honest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which nuclear weapon? where is it? when on earth we violated our commitments and obligations? As far as I know your prime minister Bibi has been talking on an Iranian hypothetical nuclear weapon since 1992, where is that bomb? where is your evidence to back your baseless claim?
> 
> A mountain of accusations and allegations was fabricated by western countries against us, all of them have been answered by Iran, the only thing that has remained is a imaginary Laptop which has never been showed to us.
> 
> 
> 
> All Iran's nuclear facilities that Iran is obliged to inform IAEA of them (base on safeguard) are already under control of IAEA (7/24 with cameras, human inspections regular (more than 7000 man per hour) or intrusive (at least 105 times) and nothing has been found so far to indicates Iran crossed the line, on the other hand agency has asked Iran to get access and visit Parchin site (a military site), which is not related to our nuclear program, base on NPT IAEA could not ask to visit it, it's interesting that they've visited it twice before in 2005 and 2006 to find bomb there as they'd been claiming before that like what they do now and instead there found toilets, this time we've asked them why do you want to visit it? base on which evidence? they said we think there might be a probable type of program running there which we guess it could be related to your nuclear program, funny.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all you have nuke, Iran doesn't.
> You are not a signatory of NPT, Iran is.
> Your programs is not under the control of IAEA, Iran's program is.
> 
> 
> I suggest u to watch this clip"



As I noted, Israel was honest and did not sign the NPT while Iran cheated everyone - signed the NPT and now developing nuclear weapons in clandestine ways. How do I know Iran lied? The Iranian regime admitted about it by itself!

Iran is obliged to report to the IAEA on any nuclear activity it makes - even for civilian purposes! However, Iran lied and deceived the work again and again:

Iran bought gas centrifuges and uranium hexaflouride from Pakistan (the notorious AQ Khan) and did not report it to the IAEA.

Iran aqcuired UF6 and UF4 from China and never report about it to the IAEA.

Iran build a uranium enrichment facility near Natanz and began the construction of a nuclear power near Arak and did not report on the to the IAEA.

Iran began experimental research in materials related to developing a nuclear warhead and never reported on them to the IAEA.

As I said the Iranian regime admitted in all the above - that it hide its nuclear activities from the IAEA in gross violation of his own international promises and adherence to the NPT!

In light of its record as a regime which cannot be trusted, Iran refused to halt its uranium enrichment activity and refrain from uranium enrichment which can be use in developing a nuclear weapon.

Hence, the IAEA determined that Iran aspires to develop nuclear weapons and violated its commitments to the NPT and its promises do not worth the paper they are written on. As a result the UN Security Council unanimously declared that Iran should be punished and imposed economic sanctions on Iran because of its aspirations for nuclear weapons.

Now, Iran is still refusing to allow IAEA inspectors to all its suspected nuclear sites - again, in gross violation to its international commitments.

The main question is: if Iran only wants a civilian nuclear programme, then why it is ready to pay such high prices for maintaining its suspected nuclear activities when the international community already offered Iran again and again to have a civilian nuclear programme but without the ability to develop nuclear weapons? Like the current arrangement with the Russian nuclear reactor in Busher, Iran will receive its nuclear fuel from Russia to all its nuclear facilities and will not produce it by itself (and use it to develop nuclear weapons).

Another question is why Iran insist on developing a nuclear programme for producing energy when it has huge oil and gas resources for generations? The decision of Iran to confront the entire world, including its own allies, just to be able to produce electricity with nuclear reactor does not make any sense.

The only possible answer is Iran decided to develop nuclear weapons and all means are open, including bluntly lie about it to the international community!

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## nirreich

bala said:


> Why does your country build illegal settlements? And it keeps quiet about it? Why does the US not do anything or the UN do anything when Israhell kicks Gazans out of their homes and throws them in wall pit?
> 
> And when flotilla aids go these people why do your IOF (israelli Offensive Forces) kill these people?
> 
> Then measely apologises to them 3 years later?
> 
> Iran doesnt do that. You keep mentioning how Iran kills people. Hold on, US still has the death penalty around, the UK doesnt neither do France, Germany or Russia, why does the US have it yet Iran and the ME Muslim countries aren't allowed it?
> 
> You dont hear of any rapists emerging in Iran going around raping and killing prossies, *nor do you hear every month a school massacre of killing children and teachers - its like someone else wants to break to the record each month...*



Apart from being unconnected in any way to reality, nothing you wrote is relevant to the issue discussed.


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## raptor22

nirreich said:


> As I noted, Israel was honest and did not sign the NPT while Iran cheated everyone - signed the NPT and now developing nuclear weapons in clandestine ways. How do I know Iran lied? The Iranian regime admitted about it by itself!



I told you you wanted to make a bomb that's why you didn't join NPT, Could you please tell where exactly Iran admitted that it's after nuclear weapon? give me some evidence not some words.



nirreich said:


> Iran is obliged to report to the IAEA on any nuclear activity it makes - even for civilian purposes! However, Iran lied and deceived the work again and again:
> 
> Iran bought gas centrifuges and uranium hexaflouride from Pakistan (the notorious AQ Khan) and did not report it to the IAEA.
> 
> Iran aqcuired UF6 and UF4 from China and never report about it to the IAEA.





nirreich said:


> Iran build a uranium enrichment facility near Natanz and began the construction of a nuclear power near Arak and did not report on the to the IAEA.



Iran's obliged to report existence of its nuclear facilities 180 days before using fissile materials, in all cases Iran did it, for example about Fordow we informed agency 2 years in advance, FYI when Ntanz enrichment facility was under the construction Mr.AL-Baredie as a IAEA chairman visited the site while he was accompanied by his financial deputy Mr.Mayer , therefore please think twice or study before accusing others about something you don't know about at all.



nirreich said:


> Iran began experimental research in materials related to developing a nuclear warhead and never reported on them to the IAEA.



All the dispute is about this, western countries claim Iran is trying to make a nuclear warhead but after many years huffing puffing they've failed to come up with credible evidence to prove their baseless statements, as I said they've been accusing Iran of making bomb for decades, there is nothing to prove this allegation. 

Japan produce tones of plutonium yearly which makes it capable to make several bombs, where is IAEA reports on such a critical and controversy issue?

South Korea has enriched uranium to 93%, where is sanctions?



nirreich said:


> As I said the Iranian regime admitted in all the above - that it hide its nuclear activities from the IAEA in gross violation of his own international promises and adherence to the NPT!



Again you repeated your words even without a piece of evidence, even a tribesman in the heart of Amazon knows number of Iranian centrifuges which simply could be translated into a full transparency of Iran nuclear program.



nirreich said:


> In light of its record as a regime which cannot be trusted, Iran refused to halt its uranium enrichment activity and refrain from uranium enrichment which can be use in developing a nuclear weapon.
> 
> Hence, the IAEA determined that Iran aspires to develop nuclear weapons and violated its commitments to the NPT and its promises do not worth the paper they are written on. As a result the UN Security Council unanimously declared that Iran should be punished and imposed economic sanctions on Iran because of its aspirations for nuclear weapons.



We don't halt enriching uranium because there is no reason to do that, we are a signatory of NPT and it's our absolute right to enrich uranium in any level we want to for peaceful purposes, not to mention that all these activities I mean both 3.5% and 20% enrichment are under the control of IAEA therefore there is nothing to worry about.

For you information, Iran halted enrichment of uranium for 2.5 years, we voluntary agreed to additional protocol (2003 to 2005) by the end E3 told us the best guarantee is an Iran without nuclear program which was not acceptable at all which again indicated that western powers are not honest, they don't want to see Iran even with peaceful program otherwise we've been enough flexible to resolve the issue diplomatically.




nirreich said:


> Now, Iran is still refusing to allow IAEA inspectors to all its suspected nuclear sites - again, in gross violation to its international commitments.



Again you are wrong, are you drunk? did you read my post? the only site which Iran doesn't allow to be visited by IAEA is a military sote by the name of Parchin which is base on safeguard we are not obliged to give them permission, the point is the site is not related to nuclear program so if they want to visit it there must be some strong evidence, we can not allow everyone to come and visit our military sites, do you do that? by the way they say we think there might be a nuclear related program there, we ask what is your document they reply we think.

By the way they visited the site twice in 2005 and 2006, they found nothing.



nirreich said:


> The main question is: if Iran only wants a civilian nuclear programme, then why it is ready to pay such high prices for maintaining its suspected nuclear activities when the international community already offered Iran again and again to have a civilian nuclear programme but without the ability to develop nuclear weapons? Like the current arrangement with the Russian nuclear reactor in Busher, Iran will receive its nuclear fuel from Russia to all its nuclear facilities and will not produce it by itself (and use it to develop nuclear weapons).



First of all, you are repeating same allegation over and over, where is your evidence? 
If you have the right of enriching uranium why Iran should not have such a capability? the U.S. has got nukes and meanwhile it enriches uranium, we are an independent country and we have this right to enrich uranium, no one can ask why a country wants to enjoy all its right under the international laws, it's silly.

Furthermore, Iran possess 10% of share in EURODIF, a multinational enrichment consortium, the point is although Iran is a member of such a organization it has never received on gram of its output. why?
Why building a civil reactor "Busher" took 35 years? while Iran paid it before revolution?

If you find the reasons behind such a isolation you will understand why Iran should stand on its feet.




nirreich said:


> Another question is why Iran insist on developing a nuclear programme for producing energy when it has huge oil and gas resources for generations? The decision of Iran to confront the entire world, including its own allies, just to be able to produce electricity with nuclear reactor does not make any sense.
> 
> The only possible answer is Iran decided to develop nuclear weapons and all means are open, including bluntly lie about it to the international community!



You need to read history, it was the U.S which offered shah to establish a nuclear program to build nuclear reactors in order to produce 20000 MW electricity, so you're telling me that the U.S. didn't know Iran had oil resource? 







Secondly, Russia and the U.S have huge oil and gas resources,






So why don't you tell them to halt enriching uranium and instead use their OIL RESOURCES?

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## The SiLent crY

TruthSeeker said:


> The USA can accept that Israel has nuclear weapons because the USA trusts that Israel will only use such weapons to preserve its existence. The USA agrees that the existence of Israel should be preserved by any means necessary, including the threat of nuclear retaliation against anyone who would destroy Israel. The USA does not beieve that Iran will use nuclear weapons only in self-defense. Therefore the USA cannot accept an Iranian nuclear weapon.



The US and Americans should eat the shi*t instead of deciding for the world .

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## Kompromat



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## Karasonmuno

I used to in a way support Israel in the past, to be honest, but my eyes have since been opened. The Israelis' treatment of their Arab neighbors is despicable and inexcusable. One might almost say that they themselves are the true Nazis in the Middle East.

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## haman10

iran is a muslim country ===> evil 

zionist regime is jew (which is not ) =====> awww poor abused little bastasrds , what do u want ? nuke? okey here is 800 of them !!

this is how UNITED NAISARHELL IS........

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## Kompromat



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## nirreich

Totally distorted. Iran is a different ball-game and there could be no comparison between these two countries.


Aeronaut said:


> [/quote


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## Kompromat

nirreich said:


> Totally distorted. Iran is a different ball-game and there could be no comparison between these two countries.




Ofcourse not, Iran is not built on landgrab, based on a religiously motivated historic myth, which lead to the expulsion of millions from their lands and homes in order to establish a religious apartheid which has attacked its neighbours dozens of times, while Iran hasn't invaded anyone in centuries. There is no comparison indeed.


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## nirreich

Aeronaut said:


> Ofcourse not, Iran is not built on landgrab, based on a religiously motivated historic myth, which lead to the expulsion of millions from their lands and homes in order to establish a religious apartheid which has attacked its neighbours dozens of times, while Iran hasn't invaded anyone in centuries. There is no comparison indeed.




Israel is a legitimate country, not less than even Iran.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Israel is actually very lucky when it comes to the nuclear situation.

Every nuclear power in the world is targeted by everyone else. America is targeted by Russia and China, Russia is targeted by America and Europe, China is targeted by America and India, India is targeted by China and Pakistan, Pakistan is targeted by India, etc.

Whereas Israel has no one in the region that targets them with nukes. Israel is a very a low-priority target for all the nuclear-armed powers, none have a big reason to target Israel.


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## nirreich

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Israel is actually very lucky when it comes to the nuclear situation.
> 
> Every nuclear power in the world is targeted by everyone else. America is targeted by Russia and China, Russia is targeted by America and Europe, China is targeted by America and India, India is targeted by China and Pakistan, Pakistan is targeted by India, etc.
> 
> Whereas Israel has no one in the region that targets them with nukes. Israel is a very a low-priority target for all the nuclear-armed powers, none have a big reason to target Israel.




And Israel did does and will continue to do all its efforts to keep the current state of affairs.


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## Chinese-Dragon

nirreich said:


> And Israel did does and will continue to do all its efforts to keep the current state of affairs.



Maybe it also has to do with your policy of nuclear ambiguity.

In a future global nuclear war, Israel may end up avoiding any nuclear attacks.

Since none of the major nuclear powers consider Israel to be an existential threat to themselves. And Israel does not openly target any of the major nuclear powers.

Whereas China would be hit from all angles, but we might survive due to our enormous population and land mass.


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