# Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle.



## STRANGER BIRD

At IDEAS 2018 Pakistan introduced its first ever home grown Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) called Viper. 

The IFV is equipped with an ATGM mount with a provision for 2X ATGMs. Its unmanned, remote controlled turret features a 30mm main gun and 12.7mm Remote Controlled Weapon System (RCWS). It is well protected by Sloped armour and carries a state of art sensors & Optical suite.

The C4ISR enabled IFV is developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

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## Arsalan

OK this looks impressive. Further development of an existing system? Will love to read more about it.


@Dazzler check this! 
@HRK

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## RangeMaster

Arsalan said:


> OK this looks impressive. Further development of an existing system? Will love to read more about it.
> 
> 
> @Dazzler check this!
> @HRK


@Arsalan check this beast. Our local HMMWV. Joint venture btw HIT and South Korea.

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## Muhammad Omar

Upgraded version of APC Talha ?? With new Turrets ATGM's and armour etc

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## Arsalan

RangeMaster said:


> @Arsalan check this beast. Our local HMMWV. Joint venture btw HIT and South Korea.
> View attachment 522758


This is good too. @Zarvan will love it but the above IFV is really impressive and a proper war fighting machine. This one that you shared is also of great use however, may be even more in our current situation and if mass produced it will help us get some of our men off those hilux cans and put them is a more safer vehicle.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Upgraded version of APC Talha ?? With new Turrets ATGM's and armour etc
> 
> View attachment 522759


Shape is a bit different and this new one is surely longer than APC Talha! Looks more like APS Saad (similar length too)

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## RangeMaster

Arsalan said:


> This is good too. @Zarvan will love it but the above IFV is really impressive and a proper war fighting machine. This one that you shared is also of great use however, may be even more in our current situation and if mass produced it will help us get some of our men off those hilux cans and put them is a more safer vehicle.
> 
> 
> Shape is a bit different and this new one is surely longer than APC Talha!


Picture came through @Zarvan and @Tipu7 twitter

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## Arsalan

RangeMaster said:


> Picture came through @Zarvan and @Tipu7 twitter


You know what, i even love the name of the IFV, Viper!! Sounds professional and better than naming it in Arabic. Again, waiting for some specs to come out.

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## RangeMaster

Arsalan said:


> You know what, i even love the name of the IFV, Viper!! Sounds professional and better than naming it in Arabic. Again, waiting for some specs to come out.


They could've named it Baktar-band, but thank God this didn't happen.

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## war&peace

Good development. Well done!!!!


RangeMaster said:


> They could've named it Baktar-band, but thank God this didn't happen.


Baktarband is not the name..it simply means "armored" and "Baktar-shikan" simply means "anti-armor"..and these come from Farsi and not Arabic.. I wish we learnt our language properly.

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## Tipu7

STRANGER BIRD said:


> slipped armour


Its Slopped armor.
I miss typed and now every body is copy pasting it with out correction.

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## Indus Pakistan

Arsalan said:


> OK this looks impressive.


Very impressive and I like the namre 'Viper' as well. I am entirely against large scale investment in conventional forces in Pakistan. The reason is very simple. However much we spend India will spend more and we will always face overwhelming odds. Simply put India is nearly 7 times more populous so it can field more men, more guns, more tanks, more artillery, more aircraft then we ever will. 

The only real defence we have right now that holds India behind the Radclife Line is our nukes which effectively equalize the conventional imbalance. Meaning our shield now is the nukes. The only role conventional forces play is in limited tactical situations and giving us the time until nukes are used. By increasing our conventional capability we merely extend the time to nuke activation. 24 hours, 7 days, 4 weeks or 3 months etc until our conventional forces are overwhelmed and we fall back on nukes. I personally think the conventional forces should just be enough to hold back India for 7 days. Anything in excess of that we cannot afford. Make our low nuclear threshold known to Indians.

Going back to the IFV I think this is area where Pakistan needs to invest in. Tracked IFVs, 8/6 wheeled IFVs and heavily armed scout vehicles. These should be made in large numbers say in excess of 4,000. Half go to the army and wheeled IFVs go to Rangers/FC. We really need to beef up internal security. All regions of Pakistan with issues like Balochistan, Sindh, South Punjab and FATA should be heavily patrolled by GC/Rangers. Helicopters to reinforce the patroling should also be bought. Pakistan needs to shift focus from borders to internal threats. The state should have iron fist visible everywhere. 

And vehicles like Viper or wheeled derivatives would be the 'ironfist'.

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## Tipu7

Muhammad Omar said:


> Upgraded version of APC Talha ?? With new Turrets ATGM's and armour etc
> 
> View attachment 522759


Its basic layout resembles Saad APC more than Talha

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## War Thunder

I like that angling on the frontal armor, adds up to double the actual armor on the Front as it looks like 45 degrees on both the upper and lower plate. But sides are without any armor and will easily get penetrated by AP munitions...

wou'dve been better if they could add some spaced armor to give it more of a fighting chance against ATGM's and AT weapons.


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## 313ghazi

Indus Pakistan said:


> Very impressive and I like the namre 'Viper' as well. I am entirely against large scale investment in conventional forces in Pakistan. The reason is very simple. However much we spend India will spend more and we will always face overwhelming odds. Simply put India is nearly 7 times more populous so it can field more men, more guns, more tanks, more artillery, more aircraft then we ever will.
> 
> The only real defence we have right now that holds India behind the Radclife Line is our nukes which effectively equalize the conventional imbalance. Meaning our shield now is the nukes. The only role conventional forces play is in limited tactical situations and giving us the time until nukes are used. By increasing our conventional capability we merely extend the time to nuke activation. 24 hours, 7 days, 4 weeks or 3 months etc until our conventional forces are overwhelmed and we fall back on nukes. I personally think the conventional forces should just be enough to hold back India for 7 days. Anything in excess of that we cannot afford. Make our low nuclear threshold known to Indians.
> 
> Going back to the IFV I think this is area where Pakistan needs to invest in. Tracked IFVs, 8/6 wheeled IFVs and heavily armed scout vehicles. These should be made in large numbers say in excess of 4,000. Half go to the army and wheeled IFVs go to Rangers/FC. We really need to beef up internal security. All regions of Pakistan with issues like Balochistan, Sindh, South Punjab and FATA should be heavily patrolled by GC/Rangers. Helicopters to reinforce the patroling should also be bought. Pakistan needs to shift focus from borders to internal threats. The state should have iron fist visible everywhere.
> 
> And vehicles like Viper or wheeled derivatives would be the 'ironfist'.



Agree with your point about the need to have more IFV's, but disagree about the idea that a nuclear shield will keep us safe. 

At some point someone might call our bluff on this. If we let the conventional gap get so big that we risk our conventional armed forces being wiped out without making a critical impact on the enemy, we might risk a situation where the Indians can gain air superiority without really crossing the border that much, and then wait to pick off our nuclear and missile assets. 

Alternatively, they might only advance into our territory to a limited scale. Would we risk a nuclear exchange for desert? Potentially something that could escalate to MAD? When it comes to it, I don't think we would. 

We need to continue to build a credible non nuclear detterant by improving the conventional wing of our armed forces. We don't need to match India gun to gun, we just have enough to make sure they can't cross the border.

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## war&peace

Tipu7 said:


> Its Slopped armor.
> I miss typed and now every body is copy pasting it with out correction.


Though I'm not involved in it but sometimes it is difficult to guess what's in other person's mind..since slipped also looked somehow relevant in this context.

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## Zarvan



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## TOPGUN

Simply outstanding, very impressive love the machine and the name. Has PA entered any of these in its service?


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## Major Sam

Well the best things is our products finishing and colour scheme has improved alot.

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## Cuirassier

Concept concept concept, then dumped.


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## war&peace

313ghazi said:


> Agree with your point about the need to have more IFV's, but disagree about the idea that a nuclear shield will keep us safe.
> 
> At some point someone might call our bluff on this. If we let the conventional gap get so big that we risk our conventional armed forces being wiped out without making a critical impact on the enemy, we might risk a situation where the Indians can gain air superiority without really crossing the border that much, and then wait to pick off our nuclear and missile assets.
> 
> Alternatively, they might only advance into our territory to a limited scale. Would we risk a nuclear exchange for desert? Potentially something that could escalate to MAD? When it comes to it, I don't think we would.
> 
> We need to continue to build a credible non nuclear detterant by improving the conventional wing of our armed forces. We don't need to match India gun to gun, we just have enough to make sure they can't cross the border.


His background is not military defence but he thinks he is omni-matter analyst who knows all. Nuke shield can very much be nullified or mitigated with countermeasures and Gangadesh is constantly working on it through acquisition of advanced weapon systems in conventional domain as well as increasing its nuclear capabilities like adding more subs with SLBMs, S-400, ABMDS, Rafale etc so if Pakistan just gives up, even the nuclear shield will become ineffective i.e. if you can't deliver..it is of no use as was the case for Bharat when it exploded its first crude nuke in 1974... It simply could not deliver it for the next 10-20 years i.e. 1986 Pakistan had a credible working device and Pakistan achieved the ability to deliver it shortly after through A/Cs and latter by through missiles. So Pakistan has to continually keep improving its conventional capabilities and which it has been doing by introducing different missiles like TNW in form of NASR, cruise missiles, MIRVs, SLCM and sea-based deterrence so even though Pakistan is not in the numbers game, it has kept innovating to deny its adversary any decisive advantage and we should to keep doing that.

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## Windjammer



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## maverick1977

30mm twin barrel? how many Rounds per min and the age of barrel? What kind of 30mm rounds? Tungsten, chromium, steel? that will dictate along with Kinetic energy of the bullets how deep they can penetrate? Whats the range based on the alloy? distance travelled per sec by various alloy types? 700mm plus armored piercing rounds? is there a fire control system (FCS), night vision scope for targeting? barrel flash suppression ???


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## MBT 3000

many should be produced


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## Awan68

war&peace said:


> His background is not military defence but he thinks he is omni-matter analyst who knows all. Nuke shield can very much be nullified or mitigated with countermeasures and Gangadesh is constantly working on it through acquisition of advanced weapon systems in conventional domain as well as increasing its nuclear capabilities like adding more subs with SLBMs, S-400, ABMDS, Rafale etc so if Pakistan just gives up, even the nuclear shield will become ineffective i.e. if you can't deliver..it is of no use as was the case for Bharat when it exploded its first crude nuke in 1974... It simply could not deliver it for the next 10-20 years i.e. 1986 Pakistan had a credible working device and Pakistan achieved the ability to deliver it shortly after through A/Cs and latter by through missiles. So Pakistan has to continually keep improving its conventional capabilities and which it has been doing by introducing different missiles like TNW in form of NASR, cruise missiles, MIRVs, SLCM and sea-based deterrence so even though Pakistan is not in the numbers game, it has kept innovating to deny its adversary any decisive advantage and we should to keep doing that.


This so called think tank analyst always seems to forget that in case of a nuclear exchange Pakistan will be burned as well....nukes are the last resort, both sides will never use them in a war unless its the matter of very survival of the state.....we need to massively boost our conventional capabilities to keep india at bay.

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## Dreamer.

STRANGER BIRD said:


> At IDEAS 2018 Pakistan introduced first ever home grown Infantry Fighting Vehicle called Viper. Equipped with two ATGM 30mm chain gun & 12.7mm AA gun, this IFV is developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) It's protected by Sloped armour and carries state of art sensors & Optics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 522750


Impressive vehicle!

But what a _terrible_ name!!!! Seriously, Viper???

Hopefully the vehicle goes beyond concept stage, and even more hopefully gets a name change.


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## ziaulislam

313ghazi said:


> Agree with your point about the need to have more IFV's, but disagree about the idea that a nuclear shield will keep us safe.
> 
> At some point someone might call our bluff on this. If we let the conventional gap get so big that we risk our conventional armed forces being wiped out without making a critical impact on the enemy, we might risk a situation where the Indians can gain air superiority without really crossing the border that much, and then wait to pick off our nuclear and missile assets.
> 
> Alternatively, they might only advance into our territory to a limited scale. Would we risk a nuclear exchange for desert? Potentially something that could escalate to MAD? When it comes to it, I don't think we would.
> 
> We need to continue to build a credible non nuclear detterant by improving the conventional wing of our armed forces. We don't need to match India gun to gun, we just have enough to make sure they can't cross the border.


agree, first objective has to be denial of air superiority as without air power invasion will be very difficult with new guided weapons and cluster ammunition, its simply not an option..so air superiority is the key in post 2000 battles once there was proliferation of guided and cluster weapons even in 1990s iraq was decomated simply because they had no airpower

once we lose air power a conventional war will be over and it will be a asymetrical war

pakistan thus needs to get it act together work on thunders fast pace, try to acquire more f16s and get more SAMs through JV and EW systems and if economics allow in future a third platform

viper is simply a revamp of m113 i dont see anything special about it..i hope they upped the armoured to atleast some level..


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## Kompromat

I love those remote controlled turrets. 




Windjammer said:


>

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## Arsalan

RangeMaster said:


> They could've named it Baktar-band, but thank God this didn't happen.


lolz!!
Well that would have just meant "Armored Vehicle" 
I was actually talking about naming these systems after people etc. VIPER have a more lethal and professional sound to it!!

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## Trango Towers

maverick1977 said:


> 30mm twin barrel? how many Rounds per min and the age of barrel? What kind of 30mm rounds? Tungsten, chromium, steel? that will dictate along with Kinetic energy of the bullets how deep they can penetrate? Whats the range based on the alloy? distance travelled per sec by various alloy types? 700mm plus armored piercing rounds? is there a fire control system (FCS), night vision scope for targeting? barrel flash suppression ???


So many question. Now i aint got the time


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## TheNoob

Dreamer. said:


> Impressive vehicle!
> 
> But what a _terrible_ name!!!! Seriously, Viper???
> 
> Hopefully the vehicle goes beyond concept stage, and even more hopefully gets a name change.



Viper!
The snake, not the floor cleaning thing. ;d


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## Dreamer.

Arsalan said:


> lolz!!
> Well that would have just meant "Armored Vehicle"
> I was actually talking about naming these systems after people etc. VIPER have a more lethal and professional sound to it!!


You forgot to add that it's also very original. Also you forgot to explain that it is must for a name to be in english and refer to a snake to be _professional_.



TheNoob said:


> Viper!
> The snake, not the floor cleaning thing. ;d


Yeah thanks for stating the obvious, I know what the name means. It's a really bad choice.


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## Pakistansdefender

Very colorful.


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## TheNoob

Dreamer. said:


> You forgot to add that it's also very original. Also you forgot to explain that it is must for a name to be in english and refer to a snake to be _professional_.
> 
> 
> Yeah thanks for stating the obvious, I know what the name means. It's a really bad choice.



I've seen you post everywhere about the name.
What the heck is wrong with it xD Seems cool to me.


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## Gryphon

*Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV*

*Dmitry Fediushko, Karachi* - Jane's Defence Weekly
29 November 2018






_Pakistan’s Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) armour manufacturer unveiled its Viper IFV at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition and seminar held in Karachi, Pakistan, on 27-30 November. Source: Dmitry Fediushko_

Pakistani armour manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled its latest infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), the Viper, at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition, held in Karachi, Pakistan, between 27-30 November.

The Viper is based on a lengthened chassis derived from the M113 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC) and has six road wheels on each side compared to the M113's five. Unlike the M113, the IFV is additionally protected by appliqué armour.

"The Viper weighs some 16 tonnes and is protected in accordance with Level IV STANAG 4569 [all-round protection against 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullets fired at a distance of 200 m]," a source from HTI told _Jane's_ at IDEAS 2018.

The Viper has retained the internal layout of the M113 APC, with the powerpack mounted in the front right part of the hull. The vehicle transports up to 13 soldiers (including a crew of three) in anti-blast seats without neck protection. However, the hull lacks a spall liner or any additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts. The vehicle's troop compartment is fitted with an exit ramp.

The prototype of the Viper has been fitted with a modified Turra 30 remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) armed with a Slovak-made Shipunov 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, Kalashnikov PKT 7.62 mm medium machine gun (MG), two ready-to-use 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel') anti-tank guided missiles and smoke dischargers. The Konkurs missiles and Kalashnikov MG, the source noted, were supplied by East European NATO member states.

The RCWS's sensor suite incorporates a daylight TV camera, infrared sight, and laser rangefinder. The commander's workstation can additionally be fitted with a panoramic sight.

To read the full article, Client Login
(292 of 395 words)

Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV | Jane's Defence Weekly



IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle

IDEAS 2018 News Official Show Daily
POSTED ON THURSDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2018 13:56

At this year’s edition of IDEAS, being held in Karachi (Pakistan), the local armament group Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled a new tracked IFV dubbed “Viper”.





_The Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle showcased at IDEAS 2018
(Credit: RealKarachi / youtube.com)_

The Viper is a further development of the Talha armoured personnel carrier, which is a modern variant of the well-known American M-113 APC, produced in this country for a long time.

The vehicle integrates a remote control combat module which mainly incorporates Russian systems. It features a 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, an NSV 12.7 mm machine gun mounted above the gun, and two AT-5B Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles on the left side of the turret. A digital optronic sensor also provides EO/IR sights for the gunner and commander. This modular optronic mast is ideal for long day and night surveillance missions.

The Viper can carry up to nine dismounted soldier and a crew of three: a driver, a gunner and the vehicle’s commander.

In its basic version, the Viper has a MTOW of 11,000 kg. It is powered by a 360 hp diesel engine, providing a maximum speed of 62 km/h.

As it can be seen on the pictures, the HIT designers have seriously worked on enhancing the protection. Besides extensive armor plates, the vehicle is also equipped with two series of four smoke grenade launchers mounted on each side of the 2A42 gun. The crew compartment includes suspended seats for a better survivability against IEDs and mines.

According to local media, the Viper IFV will undergo acceptability trials soon.

Heavy Industries Taxila is one of the largest defence manufacturer in Pakistan and has grown into a military industrial complex since its foundation 1971.

IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle | armyrecognition.com

@HRK @Path-Finder @Signalian @Inception-06

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## CriticalThought

TheNoob said:


> I've seen you post everywhere about the name.
> What the heck is wrong with it xD Seems cool to me.



The people who chose Viper are clearly clueless about search engine optimization.


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> *Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV*
> 
> *Dmitry Fediushko, Karachi* - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 29 November 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Pakistan’s Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) armour manufacturer unveiled its Viper IFV at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition and seminar held in Karachi, Pakistan, on 27-30 November. Source: Dmitry Fediushko_
> 
> Pakistani armour manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled its latest infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), the Viper, at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition, held in Karachi, Pakistan, between 27-30 November.
> 
> The Viper is based on a lengthened chassis derived from the M113 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC) and has six road wheels on each side compared to the M113's five. Unlike the M113, the IFV is additionally protected by appliqué armour.
> 
> "The Viper weighs some 16 tonnes and is protected in accordance with Level IV STANAG 4569 [all-round protection against 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullets fired at a distance of 200 m]," a source from HTI told _Jane's_ at IDEAS 2018.
> 
> The Viper has retained the internal layout of the M113 APC, with the powerpack mounted in the front right part of the hull. The vehicle transports up to 13 soldiers (including a crew of three) in anti-blast seats without neck protection. However, the hull lacks a spall liner or any additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts. The vehicle's troop compartment is fitted with an exit ramp.
> 
> The prototype of the Viper has been fitted with a modified Turra 30 remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) armed with a Slovak-made Shipunov 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, Kalashnikov PKT 7.62 mm medium machine gun (MG), two ready-to-use 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel') anti-tank guided missiles and smoke dischargers. The Konkurs missiles and Kalashnikov MG, the source noted, were supplied by East European NATO member states.
> 
> The RCWS's sensor suite incorporates a daylight TV camera, infrared sight, and laser rangefinder. The commander's workstation can additionally be fitted with a panoramic sight.
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (292 of 395 words)
> 
> Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV | Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle
> 
> IDEAS 2018 News Official Show Daily
> POSTED ON THURSDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2018 13:56
> 
> At this year’s edition of IDEAS, being held in Karachi (Pakistan), the local armament group Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled a new tracked IFV dubbed “Viper”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle showcased at IDEAS 2018
> (Credit: RealKarachi / youtube.com)_
> 
> The Viper is a further development of the Talha armoured personnel carrier, which is a modern variant of the well-known American M-113 APC, produced in this country for a long time.
> 
> The vehicle integrates a remote control combat module which mainly incorporates Russian systems. It features a 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, an NSV 12.7 mm machine gun mounted above the gun, and two AT-5B Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles on the left side of the turret. A digital optronic sensor also provides EO/IR sights for the gunner and commander. This modular optronic mast is ideal for long day and night surveillance missions.
> 
> The Viper can carry up to nine dismounted soldier and a crew of three: a driver, a gunner and the vehicle’s commander.
> 
> In its basic version, the Viper has a MTOW of 11,000 kg. It is powered by a 360 hp diesel engine, providing a maximum speed of 62 km/h.
> 
> As it can be seen on the pictures, the HIT designers have seriously worked on enhancing the protection. Besides extensive armor plates, the vehicle is also equipped with two series of four smoke grenade launchers mounted on each side of the 2A42 gun. The crew compartment includes suspended seats for a better survivability against IEDs and mines.
> 
> According to local media, the Viper IFV will undergo acceptability trials soon.
> 
> Heavy Industries Taxila is one of the largest defence manufacturer in Pakistan and has grown into a military industrial complex since its foundation 1971.
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle | armyrecognition.com
> 
> @HRK @Path-Finder @Signalian @Inception-06



The use of Konkurs and not HJ8! I always knew HJ8 were overweight with comparable systems.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> *Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV*
> 
> *Dmitry Fediushko, Karachi* - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 29 November 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Pakistan’s Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) armour manufacturer unveiled its Viper IFV at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition and seminar held in Karachi, Pakistan, on 27-30 November. Source: Dmitry Fediushko_
> 
> Pakistani armour manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled its latest infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), the Viper, at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition, held in Karachi, Pakistan, between 27-30 November.
> 
> The Viper is based on a lengthened chassis derived from the M113 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC) and has six road wheels on each side compared to the M113's five. Unlike the M113, the IFV is additionally protected by appliqué armour.
> 
> "The Viper weighs some 16 tonnes and is protected in accordance with Level IV STANAG 4569 [all-round protection against 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullets fired at a distance of 200 m]," a source from HTI told _Jane's_ at IDEAS 2018.
> 
> The Viper has retained the internal layout of the M113 APC, with the powerpack mounted in the front right part of the hull. The vehicle transports up to 13 soldiers (including a crew of three) in anti-blast seats without neck protection. However, the hull lacks a spall liner or any additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts. The vehicle's troop compartment is fitted with an exit ramp.
> 
> The prototype of the Viper has been fitted with a modified Turra 30 remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) armed with a Slovak-made Shipunov 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, Kalashnikov PKT 7.62 mm medium machine gun (MG), two ready-to-use 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel') anti-tank guided missiles and smoke dischargers. The Konkurs missiles and Kalashnikov MG, the source noted, were supplied by East European NATO member states.
> 
> The RCWS's sensor suite incorporates a daylight TV camera, infrared sight, and laser rangefinder. The commander's workstation can additionally be fitted with a panoramic sight.
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (292 of 395 words)
> 
> Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV | Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle
> 
> IDEAS 2018 News Official Show Daily
> POSTED ON THURSDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2018 13:56
> 
> At this year’s edition of IDEAS, being held in Karachi (Pakistan), the local armament group Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled a new tracked IFV dubbed “Viper”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle showcased at IDEAS 2018
> (Credit: RealKarachi / youtube.com)_
> 
> The Viper is a further development of the Talha armoured personnel carrier, which is a modern variant of the well-known American M-113 APC, produced in this country for a long time.
> 
> The vehicle integrates a remote control combat module which mainly incorporates Russian systems. It features a 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, an NSV 12.7 mm machine gun mounted above the gun, and two AT-5B Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles on the left side of the turret. A digital optronic sensor also provides EO/IR sights for the gunner and commander. This modular optronic mast is ideal for long day and night surveillance missions.
> 
> The Viper can carry up to nine dismounted soldier and a crew of three: a driver, a gunner and the vehicle’s commander.
> 
> In its basic version, the Viper has a MTOW of 11,000 kg. It is powered by a 360 hp diesel engine, providing a maximum speed of 62 km/h.
> 
> As it can be seen on the pictures, the HIT designers have seriously worked on enhancing the protection. Besides extensive armor plates, the vehicle is also equipped with two series of four smoke grenade launchers mounted on each side of the 2A42 gun. The crew compartment includes suspended seats for a better survivability against IEDs and mines.
> 
> According to local media, the Viper IFV will undergo acceptability trials soon.
> 
> Heavy Industries Taxila is one of the largest defence manufacturer in Pakistan and has grown into a military industrial complex since its foundation 1971.
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle | armyrecognition.com
> 
> @HRK @Path-Finder @Signalian @Inception-06



I don't understand why they chose to use a _wire guided_ anti tank missile I just can not understand why PA army still not upgrading its inventory of anti tank missiles .... ???

In the age of top attack fire and forget anti tank missiles they are offering an IFV with wire guided missile just because it comes with TURRA-30 remote control turret, in this case what is there to offer by HIT other than another M-113 derivative, honestly speaking as a complete package i feel it is a sort of disappointment.

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## monitor

*Designation:*
*TURRA 30*



*Manufacturer:* EVPU a.s., Nova Dubnica 
*Product type:* Turrets 
*Name:* Remote controlled weapon station 
Technical description:
The TURRA 30 is a remote controlled weapon station which is designed to be integrated on various types of the wheeled or tracked armoured vehicles.
With an integrated automatic 30 mm gun, with a 7.62 mm machine gun, with a smoke grenade launcher and also with ATGM presents the highly effective way of elimination the armoured vehicles or low-flying targets up to a distance of 2,500 metres.

Main gun 2A42 30 mm:

Length: 3,027 mm

Weight: 118kg

Rate of fire: 550 rds/min

Effective range: 2 500 m

Feeding: dual (two belts)

Reloading: manual / pyro
Ammunition: APDS, AP-T, HE, HEI, HE-T, HETP-T, TP


Machine gun PKT 7,62 mm:





Length: 1 098 mm

Weight: 10.5 kg

Rate of fire: 700-800 rds/min

Effective range: 1,500 m
Opto-electronic box:


Cooled thermal camera


Laser range finder

TV camera with zoom
Control system:





Controls modes of the weapon station





Provides weapon system stabilization





Completes ballistic computation





Provides system diagnostics




Drive system:





Azimuth: n x 360°





Elevation: -10° up to +60°





Stabilization: gyroscopic, FOG (Fiber optic gyro)




Operator's (gunner's) position:


Operator's position allows to control the gun system and the turret. By the joysticks and operator control panel can the operator control the weapon station and gun system in several modes such as observation, fire, operating parameters setup and diagnostic mode. The operator control panel is adapted to connect to fire detection system (optional), laser warning system and smoke grenade launcher system (optional).



Optional weapon systems:


Modularity of the system and design allow the integration of auxiliary weapon systems such as ATGM or AAGM in order to destroy heavy armoured vehicles and low-flying targets.



*Specifications:
Property* *Value*
Main weapon caliber (mm)
30
Length (mm)
4000
Width (mm)
1500
Height (mm)
700
Weight (kg)
1200

Included in:
*Product* *Amount*


 BMP-M1 CZ (Modernization of the vehicle)
1


 Sakal BVP-M2 SKCZ(Modernization of the vehicle)
1


 Scipio (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier)
1



*Related *


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## Chimgathar

HRK said:


> I don't understand why they chose to use a _wire guided_ anti tank missile I just can not understand why PA army still not upgrading its inventory of anti tank missiles .... ???
> 
> In the age of top attack fire and forget anti tank missiles they are offering an IFV with wire guided missile just because it comes with TURRA-30 remote control turret, in this case what is there to offer by HIT other than another M-113 derivative, honestly speaking as a complete package i feel it is a sort of disappointment.


Yes I agree, seems PA has no current plan for acquiring next gen. Anti-Tank Guided Missiles. If you see the turret of VIPER vehicle it is exposed, unprotected, even anti material sniper fire might penetrate it. 
*Off Topic,* On the other hand PA has ordered AH-1Zs, hellfire missiles, ATAK A-129 (missile ordered not known) it could a reason as they are getting hellfires.

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## Arsalan

Dreamer. said:


> You forgot to add that it's also very original. Also you forgot to explain that it is must for a name to be in english and refer to a snake to be _professional_.
> 
> 
> Yeah thanks for stating the obvious, I know what the name means. It's a really bad choice.


Well if you want to SELL these, which we surely will, YES, the name should be attractive to the customer, not our history or culture! 
Thats what i feel from marketing point of view being in the same business. I may be wrong!


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> The use of Konkurs and not HJ8! I always knew HJ8 were overweight with comparable systems.





HRK said:


> I don't understand why they chose to use a _wire guided_ anti tank missile I just can not understand why PA army still not upgrading its inventory of anti tank missiles .... ???
> 
> In the age of top attack fire and forget anti tank missiles they are offering an IFV with wire guided missile just because it comes with TURRA-30 remote control turret, in this case what is there to offer by HIT other than another M-113 derivative, honestly speaking as a complete package i feel it is a sort of disappointment.



Could have opted for Denel Ingwe, which offers fire-on-the-move capability.

Still, a better choice than HJ-8. Jane's mentions these have been purchased from a NATO member state, so I would think these came at a low price.

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## CriticalThought

Arsalan said:


> Well if you want to SELL these, which we surely will, YES, the name should be attractive to the customer, not our history or culture!
> Thats what i feel from marketing point of view being in the same business. I may be wrong!



Well, the Chinese name their systems according to Chinese traditions, such as Shaolong, or Hualong etc. Russians have names like Iskander. Everyone tries to portray their history, and that is what makes the naming interesting. The world today expects diversity and we should not shy away from promoting our history and culture.

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## HRK

Chimgathar said:


> even anti material sniper fire might penetrate it.


I don't think this might be the case


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## Arsalan

CriticalThought said:


> Well, the Chinese name their systems according to Chinese traditions, such as Shaolong, or Hualong etc. Russians have names like Iskander. Everyone tries to portray their history, and that is what makes the naming interesting. The world today expects diversity and we should not shy away from promoting our history and culture.


hmmm,,, you have a point!

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## Dreamer.

Arsalan said:


> Well if you want to SELL these, which we surely will, YES, the name should be attractive to the customer, not our history or culture!
> Thats what i feel from marketing point of view being in the same business. I may be wrong!


Yeah and viper was the only choice for that, I agree. A defence product not called viper simply cannot be sold, you are right.


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## Zhukov

Indus Pakistan said:


> Very impressive and I like the namre 'Viper' as well. I am entirely against large scale investment in conventional forces in Pakistan. The reason is very simple. However much we spend India will spend more and we will always face overwhelming odds. Simply put India is nearly 7 times more populous so it can field more men, more guns, more tanks, more artillery, more aircraft then we ever will.
> *
> The only real defence we have right now that holds India behind the Radclife Line is our nukes which effectively equalize the conventional imbalance. Meaning our shield now is the nukes. The only role conventional forces play is in limited tactical situations and giving us the time until nukes are used. By increasing our conventional capability we merely extend the time to nuke activation. 24 hours, 7 days, 4 weeks or 3 months etc until our conventional forces are overwhelmed and we fall back on nukes. I personally think the conventional forces should just be enough to hold back India for 7 days. Anything in excess of that we cannot afford. Make our low nuclear threshold known to Indians.*
> 
> Going back to the IFV I think this is area where Pakistan needs to invest in. Tracked IFVs, 8/6 wheeled IFVs and heavily armed scout vehicles. These should be made in large numbers say in excess of 4,000. Half go to the army and wheeled IFVs go to Rangers/FC. We really need to beef up internal security. All regions of Pakistan with issues like Balochistan, Sindh, South Punjab and FATA should be heavily patrolled by GC/Rangers. Helicopters to reinforce the patroling should also be bought. Pakistan needs to shift focus from borders to internal threats. The state should have iron fist visible everywhere.
> 
> And vehicles like Viper or wheeled derivatives would be the 'ironfist'.


No Sir this is not the case.
India may be 7 times larger in terms of population and Area
But Except Indian Navy Indian Conventional forces are roughly just Twice the size of Pakistan. And that size is not enough to overwhelm a country on its own territory. Considering they have 7 times more Strategic Assets and Area to Defend. Do some research on sheer numbers of Pakistani and Indian Inventory or Weapons and Servicemen and you will be astonished how narrow the Gap is compared to like 50 years before when it was 4 to 1
Its not World War 2 where armies will collide heads on gun to gun. With the Massive Advancements in Maneuverability, Intel apparatus and Tactical combat of modern age, warfare is very different. Nuclear deterrent was developed only to counter Indian nuclear Threat(which India developed before us) not the threat of their conventional forces.
2 times stronger armies or even 3 times stronger armies cannot win a modern war unless the Adversary is totally Outclassed by Technology and Battle Tactics like USA outclassed Iraq. Which India does not hold over Pakistan no matter how hard they try to portray it in front of their public.
You mean Indian Air force can totally annihilate Pakistan air force on Pakistani Skies?
and Indian army of 1.4 Million with will run head on in Pakistani Soil in our Cities with Extremely Hostile population towards India against out 700,000 Armed forces and overwhelm our defenses with that number? (Even If they deploy whole our there army of 1.4 M which is ridiculous.will they leave their home front undefended to be flanked by Pakistan Forces from some other sector? or Chinese threat)
Infact, Except USA and Russia no other army of the world can totally outclass and subdue Pakistan Defenses (If you don't count Chinese as they are your Allies and European Union ans they are not a United Army) neither can any army except USA and Russia Outclass Indian Defenses.
Its naive to think Pakistan can invade India and Defeat Indian Defenses and Capture Delhi like some Pakistanis believe. But it is equally Stupid and Laughable to think that Pakistan can be subdued by Indian Forces in a conventional confrontation.
Only way India can Defeat Pakistan is if their is a massive internal Mutiny Inside Pakistan and Locals turn hostile towards federation in support Indian Army Choking Pakistani Forces Operations. Decide for your self if it is possible in near foreseeable future

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## Foxtrot Delta

The viper IFV looks really Bad ***! The chassis and armor shape look very very good and durable. Weapon systems and target systems im not sure about look wise its 10/10 even when compared to chinese or western designs

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## Arsalan

Dreamer. said:


> Yeah and viper was the only choice for that, I agree. A defence product not called viper simply cannot be sold, you are right.


hahahah,, why are you so pissed off?? 
Ok tell me, what would you want it to be called?

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## Dreamer.

CriticalThought said:


> Well, the Chinese name their systems according to Chinese traditions, such as Shaolong, or Hualong etc. Russians have names like Iskander. Everyone tries to portray their history, and that is what makes the naming interesting. The world today expects diversity and we should not shy away from promoting our history and culture.


In addition, buyers usually change the name of a product in their service to whatever suits them. There are many examples of the same product serving in different counties under different names. I am not totally against a name in english but at least it should be something meaningful and original.


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## punit

Arsalan said:


> lolz!!
> Well that would have just meant "Armored Vehicle"
> I was actually talking about naming these systems after people etc. VIPER have a more lethal and professional sound to it!!


Viper for something solid and heavy duty does not sound good..

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## Windjammer



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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> *Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV*
> 
> *Dmitry Fediushko, Karachi* - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 29 November 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Pakistan’s Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) armour manufacturer unveiled its Viper IFV at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition and seminar held in Karachi, Pakistan, on 27-30 November. Source: Dmitry Fediushko_
> 
> Pakistani armour manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled its latest infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), the Viper, at the IDEAS 2018 international defence exhibition, held in Karachi, Pakistan, between 27-30 November.
> 
> The Viper is based on a lengthened chassis derived from the M113 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC) and has six road wheels on each side compared to the M113's five. Unlike the M113, the IFV is additionally protected by appliqué armour.
> 
> "The Viper weighs some 16 tonnes and is protected in accordance with Level IV STANAG 4569 [all-round protection against 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullets fired at a distance of 200 m]," a source from HTI told _Jane's_ at IDEAS 2018.
> 
> The Viper has retained the internal layout of the M113 APC, with the powerpack mounted in the front right part of the hull. The vehicle transports up to 13 soldiers (including a crew of three) in anti-blast seats without neck protection. However, the hull lacks a spall liner or any additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts. The vehicle's troop compartment is fitted with an exit ramp.
> 
> The prototype of the Viper has been fitted with a modified Turra 30 remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) armed with a Slovak-made Shipunov 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, Kalashnikov PKT 7.62 mm medium machine gun (MG), two ready-to-use 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel') anti-tank guided missiles and smoke dischargers. The Konkurs missiles and Kalashnikov MG, the source noted, were supplied by East European NATO member states.
> 
> The RCWS's sensor suite incorporates a daylight TV camera, infrared sight, and laser rangefinder. The commander's workstation can additionally be fitted with a panoramic sight.
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (292 of 395 words)
> 
> Pakistan’s HIT unveils Viper IFV | Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle
> 
> IDEAS 2018 News Official Show Daily
> POSTED ON THURSDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2018 13:56
> 
> At this year’s edition of IDEAS, being held in Karachi (Pakistan), the local armament group Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) unveiled a new tracked IFV dubbed “Viper”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle showcased at IDEAS 2018
> (Credit: RealKarachi / youtube.com)_
> 
> The Viper is a further development of the Talha armoured personnel carrier, which is a modern variant of the well-known American M-113 APC, produced in this country for a long time.
> 
> The vehicle integrates a remote control combat module which mainly incorporates Russian systems. It features a 2A42 30 mm automatic cannon, an NSV 12.7 mm machine gun mounted above the gun, and two AT-5B Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles on the left side of the turret. A digital optronic sensor also provides EO/IR sights for the gunner and commander. This modular optronic mast is ideal for long day and night surveillance missions.
> 
> The Viper can carry up to nine dismounted soldier and a crew of three: a driver, a gunner and the vehicle’s commander.
> 
> In its basic version, the Viper has a MTOW of 11,000 kg. It is powered by a 360 hp diesel engine, providing a maximum speed of 62 km/h.
> 
> As it can be seen on the pictures, the HIT designers have seriously worked on enhancing the protection. Besides extensive armor plates, the vehicle is also equipped with two series of four smoke grenade launchers mounted on each side of the 2A42 gun. The crew compartment includes suspended seats for a better survivability against IEDs and mines.
> 
> According to local media, the Viper IFV will undergo acceptability trials soon.
> 
> Heavy Industries Taxila is one of the largest defence manufacturer in Pakistan and has grown into a military industrial complex since its foundation 1971.
> 
> IDEAS 2018: Heavy Industries Taxila unveils new Viper Infantry Fighting Vehicle | armyrecognition.com
> 
> @HRK @Path-Finder @Signalian @Inception-06



I posted this idea of PA using an IFV based on Saad with 6 road wheels.

will search for that post.

@Gryphon 

found it, i was replying you infact about IFV's.

Post :93

Using Saad as IFV instead of VN-17

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mechanised-divisions-pakistan-army.529460/page-7#post-10049128

Also advocated previously using SAAD instead of TALHA.

Post : 123

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-main-battle-tanks.492961/page-9#post-9063606

That 6th road wheel makes a difference

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> I posted this idea of PA using an IFV based on Saad with 6 road wheels.
> 
> will search for that post.
> 
> @Gryphon
> 
> found it, i was replying you infact about IFV's.
> 
> Post :93
> 
> Using Saad as IFV instead of VN-17
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mechanised-divisions-pakistan-army.529460/page-7#post-10049128
> 
> Also advocated previously using SAAD instead of TALHA.
> 
> Post : 123
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-main-battle-tanks.492961/page-9#post-9063606
> 
> That 6th road wheel makes a difference



Assuming this IFV uses the same 408 hp diesel engine as APC Saad, the weight of 16t gives a good power-to-weight ratio of 25.5 hp/t which is higher than BMP-2's 21 hp/t.

Meanwhile, a report by TASS




*Pakistan decides against purchasing Ukrainian combat modules*

Military & Defense
November 29, 18:47

*Pakistan’s largest armor manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila has decided against purchasing Ukrainian remote-controlled combat modules*

KARACHI /Pakistan/, November 29. /TASS/. Pakistan’s largest armor manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has decided against purchasing Ukrainian remote-controlled combat modules when choosing armament for its new infantry fighting vehicle Viper, a source in HIT told TASS at the IDEAS international defense exhibition on Thursday.

"HIT is currently developing the new Viper infantry fighting vehicle that will replace the Pakistani army’s outdated M113 armored personnel carrier assembled under the license. The Ukrainian BM-7 Parus combat module was considered as the basic version of its armament," the source said.

"However, a decision was made to reject it due to the low reliability of the basic armament, the 30mm gun, its low turning speed and the short service life. The Slovakian Turra 30 module furnished with similar armament but characterized by its compliance with the requirements of the Pakistani army has been chosen for the Viper," the source said.

HIT held comprehensive trials of the Ukrainian Parus module before rejecting it, the source said.

"The BM-7 remote-controlled combat module has failed to meet the requirements of the Pakistani army both by its quality and its price," the source said.

Pakistan decides against purchasing Ukrainian combat modules | tass.com



Hopefully, will see it in PA service soon.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Assuming this IFV uses the same 408 hp diesel engine as APC Saad, the weight of 16t gives a good power-to-weight ratio of 25.5 hp/t which is higher than BMP-2's 21 hp/t.
> 
> Meanwhile, a report by TASS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan decides against purchasing Ukrainian combat modules*
> 
> Military & Defense
> November 29, 18:47
> 
> *Pakistan’s largest armor manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila has decided against purchasing Ukrainian remote-controlled combat modules*
> 
> KARACHI /Pakistan/, November 29. /TASS/. Pakistan’s largest armor manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has decided against purchasing Ukrainian remote-controlled combat modules when choosing armament for its new infantry fighting vehicle Viper, a source in HIT told TASS at the IDEAS international defense exhibition on Thursday.
> 
> "HIT is currently developing the new Viper infantry fighting vehicle that will replace the Pakistani army’s outdated M113 armored personnel carrier assembled under the license. The Ukrainian BM-7 Parus combat module was considered as the basic version of its armament," the source said.
> 
> "However, a decision was made to reject it due to the low reliability of the basic armament, the 30mm gun, its low turning speed and the short service life. The Slovakian Turra 30 module furnished with similar armament but characterized by its compliance with the requirements of the Pakistani army has been chosen for the Viper," the source said.
> 
> HIT held comprehensive trials of the Ukrainian Parus module before rejecting it, the source said.
> 
> "The BM-7 remote-controlled combat module has failed to meet the requirements of the Pakistani army both by its quality and its price," the source said.
> 
> Pakistan decides against purchasing Ukrainian combat modules | tass.com
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, will see it in PA service soon.



It would be interesting to see, if inducted, how will it be inducted into MIB's. 
1.50:50 ratio with IFV's in MIB. 
2. 1 x Coy IFV 3 x Coy's APC in MIB. 
3. Separate IFV and APC MIB's. 
4. IFV's in HAT's.


It would be useful to give each Infantry Division an MIB equipped with IFV to work in conjunction with MBT's of its Armored Regt.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Decent upgrade an Improvement


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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> It would be interesting to see, if inducted, how will it be inducted into MIB's.
> 1.50:50 ratio with IFV's in MIB.
> 2. 1 x Coy IFV 3 x Coy's APC in MIB.
> 3. Separate IFV and APC MIB's.
> 4. IFV's in HAT's.
> 
> 
> It would be useful to give each Infantry Division an MIB equipped with IFV to work in conjunction with MBT's of its Armored Regt.



50:50 IFV/APC ratio in MIBs should be good, but that means there is a requirement of equal number of Viper IFV's (3000+) in PA as M113 type APCs (M113: 2 crew + 11 dismounts, Viper: 3 crew + 10 dismounts).

Raising such a force will take decades and billions of dollars. Since PA has acquired surplus M113 type APCs from US, Italy & Jordan, I wonder why not use the same approach and acquire surplus BMP-2s from Europe & elsewhere, establish rebuild/maintenance facilities in Pakistan, modernize with Turra 30 RCWS, etc.

In this way, PA can induct a 1000 in 2 years & at an affordable cost.

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## CriticalThought

Question: How are the ATGMs reloaded on the Viper? What is the capacity for carried missiles? And as we move towards advanced missile systems, how easy would it be to upgrade?


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## truthseeker2010

Any idea on the unit cost?


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## Signalian

Been pondering over the aluminium armor of M-113 which catches fire. PA M-113's used as APC do not make direct contact with enemy being used ab battle taxis. But the IFV is supposed to make contact.

Wonder how good would be aluminium armor of a M-113 derivative used as IFV and carrying troops ?

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## ziaulislam

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> No Sir this is not the case.
> India may be 7 times larger in terms of population and Area
> But Except Indian Navy Indian Conventional forces are roughly just Twice the size of Pakistan. And that size is not enough to overwhelm a country on its own territory. Considering they have 7 times more Strategic Assets and Area to Defend. Do some research on sheer numbers of Pakistani and Indian Inventory or Weapons and Servicemen and you will be astonished how narrow the Gap is compared to like 50 years before when it was 4 to 1
> Its not World War 2 where armies will collide heads on gun to gun. With the Massive Advancements in Maneuverability, Intel apparatus and Tactical combat of modern age, warfare is very different. Nuclear deterrent was developed only to counter Indian nuclear Threat(which India developed before us) not the threat of their conventional forces.
> 2 times stronger armies or even 3 times stronger armies cannot win a modern war unless the Adversary is totally Outclassed by Technology and Battle Tactics like USA outclassed Iraq. Which India does not hold over Pakistan no matter how hard they try to portray it in front of their public.
> You mean Indian Air force can totally annihilate Pakistan air force on Pakistani Skies?
> and Indian army of 1.4 Million with will run head on in Pakistani Soil in our Cities with Extremely Hostile population towards India against out 700,000 Armed forces and overwhelm our defenses with that number? (Even If they deploy whole our there army of 1.4 M which is ridiculous.will they leave their home front undefended to be flanked by Pakistan Forces from some other sector? or Chinese threat)
> Infact, Except USA and Russia no other army of the world can totally outclass and subdue Pakistan Defenses (If you don't count Chinese as they are your Allies and European Union ans they are not a United Army) neither can any army except USA and Russia Outclass Indian Defenses.
> Its naive to think Pakistan can invade India and Defeat Indian Defenses and Capture Delhi like some Pakistanis believe. But it is equally Stupid and Laughable to think that Pakistan can be subdued by Indian Forces in a conventional confrontation.
> Only way India can Defeat Pakistan is if their is a massive internal Mutiny Inside Pakistan and Locals turn hostile towards federation in support Indian Army Choking Pakistani Forces Operations. Decide for your self if it is possible in near foreseeable future


Or through economic collapse


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## Zhukov

ziaulislam said:


> Or through economic collapse


Which is also a wet dream because despite of the worst economic conditions, Terrorism, Massive Trade Deficits etc, Pakistan Nominal GDP have grown at an average rate of 3.6% for the last 10 Years. Comparing it to other similar countries and criticizing economic performance of our country is one thing and is totally valid as we have performed poorly compared to India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh,.
But the term "Economic Collapse" is laughable. Too much consumption of Times of India and Express Tribune is bad for health.


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## Khaqan Humayun

RangeMaster said:


> @Arsalan check this beast. Our local HMMWV. Joint venture btw HIT and South Korea.
> 
> View attachment 522758


-------------------------------------
Is it really a Joint venture btw HIT and South Korea???
I haven't seen any news about this in Army.

So HIT Vehicle (JV) which is shown at IDEAS 2018 is KIA K151 of South Korea













1
*VEHICLE TYPE*
Light tactical vehicle
*MANUFACTURER*
Kia Motors Corporation
*CREW*
1 + 3
*GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT*
5.7t (standard wheelbase); 7t (long wheelbase)
*MAXIMUM SPEED*
130km/h
*RANGE*
600km

The Kia Light Tactical Vehicle (KLTV) is a third-generation vehicle developed by Kia Motors Corporation, a company based in South Korea. The 4×4 vehicle is offered for South Korean Armed Forces and export customers. The KLTV is also known as KM1.

The KLTV was displayed for the first time at International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) 2015 held in Abu Dhabi, UAE. Serial production of the vehicle began in 2016.

The versatile vehicle is suitable for a range of missions, including transportation of troops, patrolling, command & control , reconnaissance, and logistics operations.

*KLTV design and features*
ALTV ACMAT Light Tactical Vahicle Torpedo France
ALTV (Acmat Light Tactical Vehicle) Torpedo from ACMAT is a 4×4 lightweight multi-role vehicle intended for use by armed forces.

The modular base chassis of the Kia light tactical vehicle can be configured into a number of mission variants, including multi-purpose vehicle (MPV), armoured reconnaissance vehicle (ARV), command vehicle, communication equipment vehicle, and shop van. The robust design delivers high-mobility and survivability.

Two wheelbase versions of the vehicle are offered; namely standard and stretched. The standard armoured command version accommodates four personnel, whereas the long wheelbase variant offers enough space to carry up to eight troops and specialised equipment.

The KLTV with standard wheelbase has a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 5.7t, whereas the stretched variant has a GVW of 7t. A two-piece windscreen made of ballistic glass is fitted to the forward cabin of the vehicle.

The vehicle is also optionally fitted with a winch powered by an on-board battery. Its high-intensity frame allows the winch to haul objects with wire rope or rescue a vehicle in an open field. The on-board air-conditioning system reduces crew fatigue and ensures driver’s visibility by defrosting the windshield when required.

*Kia LTV armament and self-protection*
The KLTV can be fitted with roof-mounted weaponry such as a machine gun or an automatic grenade launcher. Gun ports on either side of the hull allow the aiming and firing of individual weapons carried by the occupants.

The bullet-resistant body made of composite materials is fitted with metal sheets and bulletproof glass on windows. The vehicle offers protection against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters, while the floor is anticipated to offer protection against blasts.

A matte coating covers the hull and parts of the KLTV to prevent vehicle corrosion, while camouflaging the vehicle from direct and indirect observations by hostile forces.

*KLTV engine*
The light tactical vehicle is powered by a high-efficiency, high-horsepower turbo diesel engine, which develops a power output of 225hp. The engine is coupled to an eight-speed automatic transmission that prevents shut down.

A direct engine hybrid generator is another additional option for the KLTV. This supplies power to the on-board equipment. All the electrical parts of the vehicle are protected against water.

*Mobility of Kia light tactical vehicle*
The all-wheel drive capability improves tracking and hauling power, steering capability and stability, as well as off-road driving power. The independent suspension of the vehicle enhances the ride quality, whereas the four-channel, anti-lock braking system (ABS) ensures stability. The high-ground clearance allows the vehicle to overcome vertical obstacles.

A central tire inflation system (CTIS) is fitted to the light tactical vehicle, which regulates the pressure of tyres from within the cabin for smooth operations on hard and soft terrains.

The run-flat tyre inserts allow the vehicle to travel up to 48km at a speed of 48km/h in the event of tyre damage. The vehicle can carry troops and cargo in cross-country and desert conditions with temperatures ranging between 32°C and 43°C.

A depth of up to 76cm can be handled by the vehicle, as can a side slope of 40% and a gradient of 60%. It has a maximum speed of 130km/h and can attain a range of 600km


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## PAR 5

Can anyone confirm if this IFV is for Pakistan Army or is it for export only? And if for Pakistan Army, have they initiated its test and trials yet?


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## Tamiyah

PAR 5 said:


> Can anyone confirm if this IFV is for Pakistan Army or is it for export only? And if for Pakistan Army, have they initiated its test and trials yet?


I think its for both. If it was for army then they would not show it that much detail. its probably for middle east customers.


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## Keysersoze

War Thunder said:


> I like that angling on the frontal armor, adds up to double the actual armor on the Front as it looks like 45 degrees on both the upper and lower plate. But sides are without any armor and will easily get penetrated by AP munitions...
> 
> wou'dve been better if they could add some spaced armor to give it more of a fighting chance against ATGM's and AT weapons.


Dude if you are using IFV's or APC's in an environment where tanks are taking shots at then you are using them wrong. AP munitions designed for tanks will always be able to cut through this. The sides have clearly been up-armoured you can see the additional plate on the side.



Chimgathar said:


> Yes I agree, seems PA has no current plan for acquiring next gen. Anti-Tank Guided Missiles. If you see the turret of VIPER vehicle it is exposed, unprotected, even anti material sniper fire might penetrate it.
> *Off Topic,* On the other hand PA has ordered AH-1Zs, hellfire missiles, ATAK A-129 (missile ordered not known) it could a reason as they are getting hellfires.


Thats why you use remote turrets.....

Besides this upgrade has added 3 tons of weight from a vanilla m113 there is only so much additional weight you can add.



Signalian said:


> Been pondering over the aluminium armor of M-113 which catches fire. PA M-113's used as APC do not make direct contact with enemy being used ab battle taxis. But the IFV is supposed to make contact.
> 
> Wonder how good would be aluminium armor of a M-113 derivative used as IFV and carrying troops ?


Thats why you add missiles and a big gun. You suppress the enemy and then the troops jump out. They have clearly up armoured the vehicle (though not by a massive amount). The lack of spall liner is a bit of a problem though.


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## War Thunder

Keysersoze said:


> Dude if you are using IFV's or APC's in an environment where tanks are taking shots at then you are using them wrong. AP munitions designed for tanks will always be able to cut through this. The sides have clearly been up-armoured you can see the additional plate on the side.




Dude, no matter how you use this, you will always end up being a recipient of anti tank/armor munitions. And every bit of armor helps in there.

The sides might be up armored but at that angling, they are nothing but a paper sheet waiting to be hit and penetrated.


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## Keysersoze

War Thunder said:


> Dude, no matter how you use this, you will always end up being a recipient of anti tank/armor munitions. And every bit of armor helps in there.
> 
> The sides might be up armored but at that angling, they are nothing but a paper sheet waiting to be hit and penetrated.


The only way to have enough armour for that is to have a tank. A IFV or APC's best defence is speed.Weighing down said vehicles with tons of armour would be counter productive. Thats why slat armour is being used more to up armour APC's against RPG's







Sloping armour is not needed as its effectiveness is not the same as it was during WW2. long rod penetrators are not affected by it hence composites and perforated armours are used. Also it would add width to an already wide vehicle.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> Can anyone confirm if this IFV is for Pakistan Army or is it for export only? And if for Pakistan Army, have they initiated its test and trials yet?


I was told it was competing for the Army's tracked IFV requirement. But other vendors are making moves too (with offsets, counter-trade, FDI, etc as sweeteners).


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## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was told it was competing for the Army's tracked IFV requirement. But other vendors are making moves too (with offsets, counter-trade, FDI, etc as sweeteners).



I've checked. The VIPER IFV mock up is made by a private company in collaboration with HIT. Systems installed on it are all mockups and not real. Though a good concept but at the end of the day mainly for export market and not for PA.


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## Sulman Badshah

STRANGER BIRD said:


> At IDEAS 2018 Pakistan introduced its first ever home grown Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) called Viper.
> 
> The IFV is equipped with an ATGM mount with a provision for 2X ATGMs. Its unmanned, remote controlled turret features a 30mm main gun and 12.7mm Remote Controlled Weapon System (RCWS). It is well protected by Sloped armour and carries a state of art sensors & Optical suite.
> 
> The C4ISR enabled IFV is developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 522750


These are 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel')

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## ziaulislam

Indus Pakistan said:


> Very impressive and I like the namre 'Viper' as well. I am entirely against large scale investment in conventional forces in Pakistan. The reason is very simple. However much we spend India will spend more and we will always face overwhelming odds. Simply put India is nearly 7 times more populous so it can field more men, more guns, more tanks, more artillery, more aircraft then we ever will.
> 
> The only real defence we have right now that holds India behind the Radclife Line is our nukes which effectively equalize the conventional imbalance. Meaning our shield now is the nukes. The only role conventional forces play is in limited tactical situations and giving us the time until nukes are used. By increasing our conventional capability we merely extend the time to nuke activation. 24 hours, 7 days, 4 weeks or 3 months etc until our conventional forces are overwhelmed and we fall back on nukes. I personally think the conventional forces should just be enough to hold back India for 7 days. Anything in excess of that we cannot afford. Make our low nuclear threshold known to Indians.
> 
> Going back to the IFV I think this is area where Pakistan needs to invest in. Tracked IFVs, 8/6 wheeled IFVs and heavily armed scout vehicles. These should be made in large numbers say in excess of 4,000. Half go to the army and wheeled IFVs go to Rangers/FC. We really need to beef up internal security. All regions of Pakistan with issues like Balochistan, Sindh, South Punjab and FATA should be heavily patrolled by GC/Rangers. Helicopters to reinforce the patroling should also be bought. Pakistan needs to shift focus from borders to internal threats. The state should have iron fist visible everywhere.
> 
> And vehicles like Viper or wheeled derivatives would be the 'ironfist'.


Though the only exception to that will be a strong air force 
As we saw in feb


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## Badshakhan

Proud of Pakistan


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## Philip the Arab

Sulman Badshah said:


> These are 9M113 Konkurs (AT-6 'Spandrel')


Outdated, useless ATGM imo Pakistan should partner with Ukraine to license produce Skif ATGMs for using on all armored vehicles in service while using the HJ-12 for infantry. 800/1200mm penetration and 5 km range would allow reliable destruction of any vehicle in Indian service.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Sulman Badshah

Philip the Arab said:


> Outdated, useless ATGM imo Pakistan should partner with Ukraine to license produce Skif ATGMs for using on all armored vehicles in service while using the HJ-12 for infantry. 800/1200mm penetration and 5 km range would allow reliable destruction of any vehicle in Indian service.
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Konkurs were quite effective against Syrian T72 .. and on the other hand Indian Armed forces host alot of T752 and T90's 

Moreover , it can be replaced with more modern system whenever needed


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## Neurath

RangeMaster said:


> @Arsalan check this beast. Our local HMMWV. Joint venture btw HIT and South Korea.
> 
> View attachment 522758


Can you please share more information regarding this?


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## Sulman Badshah

Neurath said:


> Can you please share more information regarding this?


South korean armoured vehicle was marketed by HIT during IDEAS exhibition .. No update on it since then

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## PAR 5

Sulman Badshah said:


> South korean armoured vehicle was marketed by HIT during IDEAS exhibition .. No update on it since then



That is because South Koreans have exited the Pakistan Defence sector for the foreseeable future due to Indian pressure and high dollar value orders. Believe it or not.

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## Trango Towers

PAR 5 said:


> That is because South Koreans have exited the Pakistan Defence sector for the foreseeable future due to Indian pressure and high dollar value orders. Believe it or not.


Indian pressure....isolation again...dillusional

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## CatSultan

Looks like the new Tesla truck


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## Ahmet Pasha

Trango Towers said:


> Indian pressure....isolation again...dillusional


We should invest with Turks before they too take their business somewhere else. Especially in armour, aviation and maritime systems.

If not at least form JVs with them on subsystems so we can start our own industry.

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## Trango Towers

Ahmet Pasha said:


> We should invest with Turks before they too take their business somewhere else. Especially in armour, aviation and maritime systems.
> 
> If not at least form JVs with them on subsystems so we can start our own industry.


The world is changing rapidly


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## farooqbhai007

PAR 5 said:


> That is because South Koreans have exited the Pakistan Defence sector for the foreseeable future due to Indian pressure and high dollar value orders. Believe it or not.


K-9 Deal , the most major south korean deal with India was finalized in 2017, if pressure was the case they wouldnt have showed up at IDEAS 2018 the next year.
However i do remember the LAVA program or what it was called , MVDRE was working on it as a replacement to Light armoured vehicle

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## sparten

Any update? Or is this another prototype which went nowhere.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

sparten said:


> Any update? Or is this another prototype which went nowhere.


It's reportedly undergoing a pilot production run (link).

I get the rationale of using the M113 as the basis for the Viper IFV (re-use existing production infrastructure). However, some of the OEMs bidding for the IFV program offered to lease part of HIT or invest in a net-new production line as part of an offset package. So, that infrastructure thing might not be an issue. The PA may select a clean sheet design and, in return, get the OEM to set up a subsidiary in Pakistan to manufacture it locally.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's reportedly undergoing a pilot production run (link).
> 
> I get the rationale of using the M113 as the basis for the Viper IFV (re-use existing production infrastructure). However, some of the OEMs bidding for the IFV program offered to lease part of HIT or invest in a net-new production line as part of an offset package. So, that infrastructure thing might not be an issue. The PA may select a clean sheet design and, in return, get the OEM to set up a subsidiary in Pakistan to manufacture it locally.


A clean sheet design.... Do you expect a Pakistani design or something along the lines if a ToT ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Iron Shrappenel said:


> A clean sheet design.... Do you expect a Pakistani design or something along the lines if a ToT ?


Existing foreign design that the OEM builds in Pakistan, i.e., not give ToT to HIT, but set up a subsidiary in Pak to manage the project separately, the PA buys from that company. It can be an offset package where the production site is that OEM's investment in Pak.

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## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's reportedly undergoing a pilot production run (link).
> 
> I get the rationale of using the M113 as the basis for the Viper IFV (re-use existing production infrastructure). However, some of the OEMs bidding for the IFV program offered to lease part of HIT or invest in a net-new production line as part of an offset package. So, that infrastructure thing might not be an issue. The PA may select a clean sheet design and, in return, get the OEM to set up a subsidiary in Pakistan to manufacture it locally.


What are some of the other options for IFV under consideration?





Could this be one of them?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What are some of the other options for IFV under consideration?
> View attachment 814355
> 
> Could this be one of them?


I know 2 of the OEMs that submitted bids, but I can't mention them at the moment. However, if the PA plays this right, the IFV could be a vehicle (pun not intended) to drive more private sector participation in our defence industry and get us a hefty offset (33%+). From what I was told, the 2 options on the cards are either letting the OEM lease capacity from HIT or set-up a net-new production facility. So, for example, if the PA commits to $2BN in IFV orders, Pakistan could get $650 m back through OEM investment in a local production facility, localization orders, hiring locally, etc. I also think our industry can hit the ground running with military vehicles, so I could see a deal like this generate more activity on top of the contract. The total impact could give have the impact of a 50-60% offset.

Hypothetically, if Norinco Group wins such a deal, then it could be the start of 'CPEC done right.' Basically, we leverage our domestic requirements to attract big-time FDI in technology-centric areas. If "Norinco Pakistan" gets efficient, it could even end up exporting to tanks, IFVs, SPHs, etc to other countries from within Pakistan. We can grow to become the conduit through which China exports arms by getting AVIC, Norinco, etc, to set up subsidiaries that produce in Pakistan. 

@iLION12345_1

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I know 2 of the OEMs that submitted bids, but I can't mention them at the moment. However, if the PA plays this right, the IFV could be a vehicle (pun not intended) to drive more private sector participation in our defence industry and get us a hefty offset (33%+). From what I was told, the 2 options on the cards are either letting the OEM lease capacity from HIT or set-up a net-new production facility. So, for example, if the PA commits to $2BN in IFV orders, Pakistan could get $650 m back through OEM investment in a local production facility, localization orders, hiring locally, etc. I also think our industry can hit the ground running with military vehicles, so I could see a deal like this generate more activity on top of the contract. The total impact could give have the impact of a 50-60% offset.
> 
> Hypothetically, if Norinco Group wins such a deal, then it could be the start of 'CPEC done right.' Basically, we leverage our domestic requirements to attract big-time FDI in technology-centric areas. If "Norinco Pakistan" gets efficient, it could even end up exporting to tanks, IFVs, SPHs, etc to other countries from within Pakistan. We can grow to become the conduit through which China exports arms by getting AVIC, Norinco, etc, to set up subsidiaries that produce in Pakistan.
> 
> @iLION12345_1


HIT has a lot of production capacity and multiple well equipped factories that were meant to produce M113s and variants that can be readily upgraded and repurposed to make new vehicles. I wish they’d make use of those already, half the work is already done.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> HIT has a lot of production capacity and multiple well equipped factories that were meant to produce M113s and variants that can be readily upgraded and repurposed to make new vehicles. I wish they’d make use of those already, half the work is already done.


Yep that's why leasing part(s) of HIT is an offset option.

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## python-000

we can convert this.





into this.


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## Great Janjua

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551973596238839808
I like where this is headed investing in local ideas and not giving up is the black diamond of traits. 

@PanzerKiel @Signalian @RescueRanger @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## RescueRanger

Great Janjua said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551973596238839808
> I like where this is headed investing in local ideas and not giving up is the black diamond of traits.
> 
> @PanzerKiel @Signalian @RescueRanger @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Love it.

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## Super Falcon

Hit wasting time and money on 80s era system no Technolocal advantage in them sitting ducks look German lynx an these stupid vipers 100 years difference

What Turkish FNSS producing and hit making jokes of itself keep redesigning m 113 with fancy presentation won't change much in war

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## Signalian

Super Falcon said:


> Hit wasting time and money on 80s era system no Technolocal advantage in them sitting ducks look German lynx an these stupid vipers 100 years difference
> 
> What Turkish FNSS producing and hit making jokes of itself keep redesigning m 113 with fancy presentation won't change much in war


Theirs is a thrifty approach amalgamated with PA's mechanized doctrine of APCs. Inclusion of 25 mm or 30 mm or bigger cannon, an ATGM and also lesser seating capacity plus the protection systems and sensors on a single platform is what PA is looking for ? I still doubt if PA would pitch thin skinned (than MBT) at FEoB. Secondly, 125 mm holds the biggest punch, is it necessary to provide back up with 30 mm cannon ? and then isn't ATGM carrier with a 120 mm or 152 mm caliber missile a better weapon for one shot one kill scenario coupled with a longer range than a 30 mm cannon. 12.7 mm still mows down infantry, 30 mm is an over kill. Lots of factors be to debated.

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## Signalian

python-000 said:


> we can convert this.
> View attachment 814729
> 
> into this.
> View attachment 814730
> View attachment 814731


There are 2-3 types of Mech battalions in PA.

The regular MIBs and then LATs and HATs. There are also mechanized transport elements in an armored regiment like M-113s derivates.

MIBs have the usual strength of ~770 troops. They are assigned roughly 50 x M113s. Each M-113 has carrying capacity is 13 troops including driver and commander/gunner. Where as an IFV will take 6 troops and 3 crew (driver, loader, commander/gunner). Where will the extra 4 troops go ? Cost issue- assign more IFVs means more fuel requirement and maintenance, assign more missiles for launcher and ammunition for 25 or 30 mm. Or cut down MIB troop strength, that means all Ops will need to be over hauled as Brigade and Division commander options will be limited. Almost a company strength in MIB has ATGM capable M-113.

Now if you cut strength then you come towards the LAT and HAT, around 550-600 troops. Again 48 - 50 x M-113s, but more than half strength are ATGM carriers M-113. Previously CJ-3, CJ-5 and defenders had 4-5 troops on every 4x4, now its 4 -5 troops on M-901 or Maaz.

MIBs work in conjunction with Armored Regiments, M-113s trail behind MBTs and then deploy infantry to support Armor, where as LATs and HATs are extremely mobile and are required to provide heavy firepower against infantry as well as armor. LATs and HATs deploy their weapons just like an Armor regiment deploys MBTs, but MIBs deploy troops, just like normal/regular infantry regiment. Both types of units have different roles.

LATs also had recon role or scout role previously, Im not sure if the role is still maintained, so a scout IFV like M3A3 Bradley?
Now change the doctrine and try to fit in IFV like Bradley or VIPER in MIB and LAT/HAT.

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