# Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated



## fatman17

_-_*Pakistan Naval Aviation* 

Updated on 13/3/2011

GENERAL | ORDER OF BATTLE | INVENTORY | BASES


The main Pakistan Naval Aviation base is located at Pakistan Navy Ship (PNS) Mehran, located on the western side of the runway. It operates a fleet of Alouette IIIs, Sea Kings, Atlantics, F-27 Friendships and P-3C Orions. The US Government recently agreed to donate seven P-3Cs to the Pakistan Navy through its Foreign Military Sales process, although they will be refurbished in Pakistan. To date two aircraft are believed to have been delivered, joining the two P-3Cs that were returned to service in September 2006 after years of being in store due to a lack of spares. China has sold six Harbin Z-9EC anti-submarine helicopters to the Pakistan Navy for use on their Type 21 destroyers, with the first of these delivered on 23rd September, 2009.

The Atlantics and the Sea King Mk. 46s are equipped with the AM-39 Exocet for the anti-shipping role. The Lynx HAS.3s acquired from the Royal Navy in 1994 have recently been withdrawn from service, due to various reasons, so it is believed that the naval air arm has lost its capability to use Sea Skua and Mk 46 Lightweight Torpedoes in the anti-submarine role from helicopter platforms.

Also based at PNS Mehran althought not part of the Naval Aviation are two BN-2 Defenders flown by the Maritime Surveillance Flights 93 Sqn. The Flight is mainly tasked for patrolling Pakistans Economic Exclusion Zone and reports to the Director General of the Maritime Security Agency.

*Order of Battle*

222 Squadron was deactivated by 2007 following the withdrawal of its Lynx HAS.3 helicopters. The squadron was resurrected in late September 2009 to operate six newly-delivered HAIG Z-9EC Haifuns in the same anti-submarine role as its predecessors.

HQ Rawalpindi 
HQ Pakistan Armed Forces
HQ Karachi 
HQ Pakistan Navy

PNS Mehran, Karachi 
HQ Pakistan Naval Air Arm

27 Squadron

F-27-200MPA Friendship
F-27-400M Troopship

28 Squadron

P-3C-II.75 Orion

29 Squadron

Br.1150 Atlantic

111 Squadron

Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45
Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45B

222 Squadron

Z-9EC Haitun

333 Squadron

SA316 B Alouette III
SA319 B Alouette III Astazou

VIP/EW Flight

Hawker 850XP

HQ Karachi 
Maritime Security Agency

PNS Mehran, Karachi 
Maritime Surveillance Flight

93 Squadron

BN-2T Maritime Defender

Aircraft

Aérospatiale 
SA316 B Alouette III 
- In service from 1983

SA319 B Alouette III Astazou 
- In service from 1972

- Note: The attrition losses both occurred on 12th October 1978, Reports from 2005 suggested that more aircrafts may be acquired in future. The first 2 from a planned batch of 6 former-French military examples were delivered on 11th April 2008, having been purchased via the UK-based company MNA Technologies Ltd.


AgustaWestland 
Lynx HAS. 
- In service from September 1994 until 2005
- Note: The type was withdrawn from service by 2005, with the airframes possibly due to be offered for sale for spares recovery purposes.

Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45 
Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45B 

Breguet
Br.1150 Atlantic

Britten-Norman 
BN-2T Maritime Defender


Fokker D 
F-27-200MPA Friendship 
- Note: A 5th aircraft was added to the inventory on 11th April 2008; formerly operated by Pakistan International Airlines in passenger configuration, this has now been upgraded to fulfill the maritime patrol task.

F-27-400M Troopship 

Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation
Z-9EC Haitun 
- In service from October 2009
- Note: A total of 6 Z-9EC helicopters were reportedly ordered from HAMC in 2005, with at least one example photographed in China during September 2007. The first 3 Haituns were finally handed-over in an official ceremony on 23rd September 2009, with a further 4 inducted during a similar inauguration on 4th November 2010.


Hawker Beechcraft Corporation 
Hawker 850XP 
- In service from November 2010
- Note: Although the aircraft was delivered to Pakistan in late August 2010, it was officially accepted into service during an official ceremony on 4th November 2010. Media reports suggest that the aircraft has an EW/surveillance role, but no details regarding specific sensor fits are known, nor whom performed any work that may have been undertaken with this in mind. The aircraft was manufactured in 2008, but is not believed to have been delivered to its intended customer in 2009.


Lockheed
P-3C-II.75 Orion 
- In service from 1997
- Note: The acquisition of the original batch of 3 Orions was approved in 1988, with deliveries to the USN's training unit (VP-30 at Jacksonville, FL) taking place in late 1990. Although Pakistan Navy crews commenced training on the aircraft in February 1991, by mid-year the supply of the Orions was subject to an arms embargo & the aircraft were not delivered to Pakistan until December 1996 & January 1997, respectively. Folowing the Orion's official induction into service on 22nd January 1999, an attrition loss occurred on 29th October 1999 & the type was grounded shortly after. The 2 surviving aircraft were placed into storage for a number of years, but overhauled by OGMA, at Mehran, in 2006/2007 & returned to service. A further 7 refurbished ex-US Navy examples are now being supplied, following the lifting of the aforementioned embargo. The first 2 of these were delivered to Pakistan in January & March 2007, respectively, with the third & fourth examples handed-over in the USA during January 2010. Following a spell of time spent crew training at NAS Jacksonville, Florida, these were then flown to Mehran, Pakistan at the end of May 2010, where they were officially accepted into service at a formal ceremony on 1st June 2010.

*Bases*

HQ Karachi

HQ Rawalpindi

PNS Mehran, Karachi (Sharea Faisal)




AFI

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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know if the PN has any plans to induct the P-8 as it is the replacment of the P-3 and is MUCH more advanced and built from the ground up with lessons learned of the weaknesses of the P-3:
[video=metacafe;1556214/p8_posiedon_replaces_p3_orion/]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1556214/p8_posiedon_replaces_p3_orion/[/video]


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## fatman17

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone know if the PN has any plans to induct the P-8 as it is the replacment of the P-3 and is MUCH more advanced and built from the ground up with lessons learned of the weaknesses of the P-3:
> [video=metacafe;1556214/p8_posiedon_replaces_p3_orion/]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1556214/p8_posiedon_replaces_p3_orion/[/video]



P-8 will not be sold under FMS, just as the F-16 - with the upgrades of the P-3, it will be a effective MSA/ASW platform for many years.

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## Abingdonboy

fatman17 said:


> P-8 *will not be sold under FMS*, just as the F-16 - with the upgrades of the P-3, it will be a effective MSA/ASW platform for many years.


 
^^^ Why?? + yes but surely the P8 will be better off the bat than any UPG P-3, so why not?? Surely the IN having it is a threat to PN? The P-3 Can't compete.


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## Super Falcon

for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget


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## z9-ec

Super Falcon said:


> for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget


 
Given limited resources the Navy has it's not all bad. Do not forget the induction of Z9-EC with ASW role.

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## Dazzler

Super Falcon said:


> for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget


 
How can you say these weapons will not deliver in war time can you explain. Judging from the limited budget given to navy, what we have today is leaps and bounds better than what we had in the last decade. More to come soon such as 6 Type 41B AIP Subs with longer range AS missiles, new corvettes, most likely up-gradation of F-22 SAM system with HQ-16 for which a hint has already come from insider, 4 bigger frigates from China comprising more tonnage, weapons, electronics, radar, EW etc. We have 7-8 P3Cs already guarding our shores. Keep one thing in mind, Pak Navy is a defensive force and not an aggressor and for this purpose what we have and will have, is sufficient. Dont forget the 6 Perry Class frigates with a respectable ASW capability.

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## fatman17

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ Why?? + yes but surely the P8 will be better off the bat than any UPG P-3, so why not?? Surely the IN having it is a threat to PN? The P-3 Can't compete.



the P8 wont fight the P3C - they will hunt each others subs! for that the P3C is still a capable platform

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## SQ8

Rofl.. had a feeling it was all about how better the IN is with the P-8.. 

Nothing to do with suggesting the P-8 for the PN..

The PN's shipborne UAV demand is squirming again..
This time there is a local aspirant involved.. developed by a bunch of NUSTians.

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## Super Falcon

All Thanx to china but now we need major changes in top leader ships of armed forces they have failled misreably what we need changes and good leaderships in all aspects of govt other wise we dont have any chance of survival and armed forces if they are sincere with country catch theses bastered Nation went through alot now Nation cannot take more now we need to stand al together sincerely each and every one if we need to survive as a country our intelligence has to wake up and get to work and do not see any thing just pakistan we see just what good for pakistan and forget i got orders from that person to do this we will get bashing like this what is good for pakistan should be given preferance on everything and bring anything to crush these terrorists why terrorists get more moral booost becoz all their operations always been on target if we need to crush them crush their moral catch them alive nd take intel out of them and hang them in front of whole pakistan so others who want to do same will think of consicuences i know they dont fear death but they fear Nation as a nation we need to stand they fear beating of armed forces which they are not getting

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## Abdullah Aziz

As-Salam-O-Alaikum.Guys can someone please tell me how to join Pakistan Navy as a pilot(either of an aircraft or a helicopter). I have searched a lot but I found nothing so please someone tell me how to join Pakistan Naval Aviation.Please answer my following questions:
1. What qualification in needed?
2. How long will the training be?
3. Where the training will be?
4. What type of Course it will be(Long Course of Short Service Commission)?
5. If it is SSC then also please tell how long the service will be.If it is Permanent Commission then please also tell.
6. What rank and degree will be awarded on completion of training?
and guys if you don't know answers to all the questions then just answer the ones that you know. It'll be a great help from you to me. 
Thanks


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## fatman17

Abdullah Aziz said:


> As-Salam-O-Alaikum.Guys can someone please tell me how to join Pakistan Navy as a pilot(either of an aircraft or a helicopter). I have searched a lot but I found nothing so please someone tell me how to join Pakistan Naval Aviation.Please answer my following questions:
> 1. What qualification in needed?
> 2. How long will the training be?
> 3. Where the training will be?
> 4. What type of Course it will be(Long Course of Short Service Commission)?
> 5. If it is SSC then also please tell how long the service will be.If it is Permanent Commission then please also tell.
> 6. What rank and degree will be awarded on completion of training?
> and guys if you don't know answers to all the questions then just answer the ones that you know. It'll be a great help from you to me.
> Thanks



pl personally visit any Naval Recruitment Center for such info.


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## Nishan_101

I am quite sure that the 9-10 SA316 B Alouette III will going to be replaced with 11 Z-9C in near future as well.

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## Penguin

Super Falcon said:


> for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget



If "20 years old stuff" is good enough for such navies as those of Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand and NATO-members like Germany, Greece, Norway, Spain, Portugal and the US, why would it not be good enough for PN? Heck, some countries operate A and B versions (Argentina, Brazil, Chile)

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## Abdullah Aziz

fatman17 said:


> pl personally visit any Naval Recruitment Center for such info.


 please can you tell me


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## Nishan_101

I personally think that Navy has done Mistake by not inducting 11 Z-9EC instead of 6 because we have about 10 SA316 B Alouette III that need replacement and that means we require 16++ so getting 7-11 Z-9EC in Phase one and them another 11 in phase two with further upgrades will ensure that the aviation wing that can react quickly will be in effective state.


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## killerx

navy knows best what ot buy in small resources but all the time every one says militart uses 60% of the budget i wounder where it goes


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## Nishan_101

I am with 11 EH101 as well as 11+ Z-9EC


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## killerx

Z-9EC is beat for PN and in large no but I think it cannot perform rescue missions and transport as well


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660771157315507

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## nomi007

Inside_breguet_Atlantic

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## nomi007




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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

Will PN going to buy 14-16 Z-15s from China or not???


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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> Will PN going to buy 14-16 Z-15s from China or not???


Why would you think they would?


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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> Why would you think they would?



They might need it.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Nishan_101 said:


> Will PN going to buy 14-16 Z-15s from China or not???



NO.


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## Informant

I swear this Nishan dude suffers from memory loss!

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## viper46

nomi007 said:


>



pehlay daytay hain phir hamla karwa kar ura daytay hain

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## Informant

viper46 said:


> pehlay daytay hain phir hamla karwa kar ura daytay hain



Our neighbour is more in a better position of a plane being down rather than Amreeka. We have had intelligence confirmations about Indian involvement. You know who carried it out? Pakistanis. Ham he apni cheezain urdadete hain

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## DANGER-ZONE

Informant said:


> I swear this Nishan dude suffers from memory loss!



Memory loss ? Brain loss would be more precise.

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## Inception-06

Informant said:


> I swear this Nishan dude suffers from memory loss!



muahahaha I could not stop laughing muahaha mere hasa nai klota


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## fatman17

Lynx being stripped for spares.

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## FunkyGen

K two questions.....
1-Are we getting all 7 P3s? and if yes what would be the final number?
2-Also don't you think that these are more than what is required? 
Thanks in advance.


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## fatman17

FunkyGen said:


> K two questions.....
> 1-Are we getting all 7 P3s? and if yes what would be the final number?
> 2-Also don't you think that these are more than what is required?
> Thanks in advance.


 
current stock is 7. PK has requested 2 replacements for the attrition losses at mehran. 9 P3C should suffice even though 3 Additional P3C airframes were allocated to fix the hawkeye-2000 radar under a 900m FMS plan but the deal fell through.

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## Nishan_101

10+ Aloutte IIIs should be given off to NDMA/PAF. Also They should replace the 6 Sea King as they can be sold to any other country and buy some Chinese alternative about 14-16 of them... and also to increase the fleet of Z9s from 12 to 21 of them.


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## fatman17

*Boeing to target current P-3 operators for MSA sales*

By: Jon Hemmerdinger
Washington DC
Source: Flightglobal.com
This story is sourced from Flightglobal.com
19:08 8 Apr 2014

Boeing’s maritime surveillance aircraft (MSA), which is based on a Bombardier Challenger 605 platform, will be an ideal aircraft for countries that already operate Lockheed P-3 Orions, the company says.

Speaking at the Navy League’s Sea-Air-Space Exposition near Washington DC, company officials add that potential customers will also be countries in the Asia-Pacific and Persian Gulf.

“Likely customers are going to be [countries] with a challenging maritime environment,” says Jeff Brown, Boeing’s director of business development for electronic and information solutions. He adds that the MSA will be an ideal platform for performing surveillance of economic maritime zones within roughly 170nm (320km) of coasts.

“A plane like the Challenger can get to station quickly and spend a longer amount of time there” than turboprop-driven alternatives like the P-3, says Brown.




Boeing
He declines to name potential customers, but Flightglobal’s MiliCAS database shows that Persian Gulf and Asia-Pacific operators of the P-3 include Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand. P-3 operators in other regions include Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Germany, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal and Spain.

A prototype MSA achieved first flight on 28 February, following modifications to a Challenger 604 test asset performed by Toronto-based Field Aviation. The test aircraft was subsequently flown to a Boeing facility in Yuma, Arizona, where flight testing will continue, Field says.

Flight testing is scheduled to conclude by the end of 2014, with production to start in 2015, Field says.

Boeing says it has targeted 20 to 30 potential customers, and estimates the market value to be $10 billion over 10 years. The aircraft will be marketed to coast guards, militaries and other government operators, according to Field.

The base version of the MSA will be manned by two pilots and three system operators. It will be offered with a Selex ES Seaspray 7300 maritime surveillance radar and a FLIR Systems Star Safire 380 electro-optical/infrared sensor. Options will include two additional crew stations and equipment such as satellite communications and a side-looking airborne radar, says Field. Future aircraft could also be outfitted with weapons mounted on wing hardpoints, it adds.

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## Quwa

The Pakistan Navy picking up a few Boeing MSAs would not surprise me, but it seems they've settled on the ATR-72. Anyways, a direct P-3 replacement such as P-8 is well beyond Pakistan's financial means. A single Boeing MSA, even if it is an armed variant, will still likely sit well below $100mn a piece (current estimates place it at $55-60mn).


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## Imran Khan



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## Rashid Mahmood

Mark Sien said:


> The Pakistan Navy picking up a few Boeing MSAs would not surprise me, but it seems they've settled on the ATR-72. Anyways, a direct P-3 replacement such as P-8 is well beyond Pakistan's financial means. A single Boeing MSA, even if it is an armed variant, will still likely sit well below $100mn a piece (current estimates place it at $55-60mn).



ATR-72 is not an MSA.
The ATR is the replacement of F-27, and they "may" be modified to perform the MPA role in the future.

The backbone of PN LRMP's remains the P-3C.

The Boeing MSA is still in the T&T phase and it needs a long time to mature as an MSA, before it is inducted by any country as their main MSA platform.

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## Indus Falcon

Rashid Mahmood said:


> ATR-72 is not an MSA.
> The ATR is the replacement of F-27, and they "may" be modified to perform the MPA role in the future.
> 
> The backbone of PN LRMP's remains the P-3C.
> 
> The Boeing MSA is still in the T&T phase and it needs a long time to mature as an MSA, before it is inducted by any country as their main MSA platform.


Could you address the shortcomings of the P8 in reference to the P3C? Would appreciate it! 

Thanks!!


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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> current stock is 7. PK has requested 2 replacements for the attrition losses at mehran. 9 P3C should suffice even though 3 Additional P3C airframes were allocated to fix the hawkeye-2000 radar under a 900m FMS plan but the deal fell through.



I am a little confused. We originally received 3 due to brown amendment, one was lost in training accident. then we recieved 8 so the total was supposed to be 10, 2 were lost in PNS Mehran incident. Souldn't that leave 8 in inventory?


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## Indus Falcon

"Ahmad says the service and Boeing are working on "increment two" improvements that will give P-8s the ability to conduct wide-area ASW acoustic search; a capability currently available on upgraded P-3Cs." 

*Which proves P8 is currently inferior to P3*

Reduced P-8 buy to affect price, not fleet plan - 4/8/2014 - Flight Global


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## fatman17

Bilal. said:


> I am a little confused. We originally received 3 due to brown amendment, one was lost in training accident. then we recieved 8 so the total was supposed to be 10, 2 were lost in PNS Mehran incident. Souldn't that leave 8 in inventory?


 
one airframe was for spares.....

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## fatman17



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## imiakhtar

fatman17 said:


> A plane like the Challenger can get to station quickly and spend a longer amount of time there” than turboprop-driven alternatives like the P-3, says Brown



Boeing marketing lies. Nothing new there.

Whilst it can get to station quicker, it doesn't hold a candle to the P-3's loitering abilities.

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 25647
> 
> 
> View attachment 25648



These Helicopters are UNCLES!


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## Penguin

Abu Nasar said:


> "Ahmad says the service and Boeing are working on "increment two" improvements that will give P-8s the ability to conduct wide-area ASW acoustic search; a capability currently available on upgraded P-3Cs."
> 
> *Which proves P8 is currently inferior to P3*
> 
> Reduced P-8 buy to affect price, not fleet plan - 4/8/2014 - Flight Global





> The P-8, based on a proven airframe, is to replace the P-3s. At first, it will be equipped with legacy P-3 systems, later upgrades shall incorporate more advanced technology...
> 
> 
> The P-8's first flight was on 25 April 2009.
> The second and third P-8s had flown and were in flight testing in early August 2010.
> On 11 August 2010, the US approved the P-8 for low-rate production
> The first production P-8A was handed over to the navy on 4 March 2012.
> In 2013, full-rate production was delayed until the aircraft can demonstrate it can survive its 25-year lifespan without structural fatigue, overcome mission-limited deficiencies, track surface ships, and perform other primary missions
> On 1 July 2013, an initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E) report found that the P-8A was "operationally effective, operationally suitable, and ready for fleet introduction." Six test and nine low-rate initial production aircraft had been delivered at that point.
> On 3 January 2014, the Naval Air Systems Command proceeded with full-rate production of the P-8A.
> Increment 1 systems include persistent anti-submarine warfare capabilities and an integrated sensor suite;
> in 2016, Increment 2 upgrades will add multi-static active coherent acoustics, an automated identification system, and high-altitude anti-submarine weapons.Increment 2 in 2016 will include sensor and software improvements and a glide kit for Mark 54 torpedoes to allow launch from 30,000 ft.
> Increment 3 in 2020 will enable "net-enabled anti-surface warfare".
> 
> 
> 
> During exercises in 2012-2013 and an overseas deployment to Japan, the aircraft reportedly exhibited radar, sensor integration, and data transfer problems; leading to additional testing being performed.
> In January 2014, the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation office called the P-8A 'ineffective' for large area ISR and anti-submarine warfare missions, and said that the initial aircraft were not ready for deployment.
> The same report found that the P-8 was effective at the small-area search mission, and with much better range, speed, and reliability than older aircraft.
> Pentagon acquisition undersecretary Frank Kendall has disputed the report, saying that although its findings are factual, it did not acknowledge future capability upgrades for anti-submarine and wider-area surveillance


Boeing P-8 Poseidon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## fatman17

F-27 MSA & Transport.










Br.1150 Atlantic I - Sole Survivor.

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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 31585
> 
> F-27 MSA & Transport.
> 
> View attachment 31586
> 
> 
> View attachment 31587
> 
> Br.1150 Atlantic I - Sole Survivor.


Is the Atlantic still active?


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## imiakhtar

Photos: Fokker F-27-200MAR Maritime Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Nice colour scheme.

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## fatman17

Abu Nasar said:


> Is the Atlantic still active?


 
yes. navy had to activate it due to loss of P3C's.





SA-316 Alouette III - SAR

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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> yes. navy had to activate it due to loss of P3C's.



Thats what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation!

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## fatman17

Pakistani Navy took delivery of 6 *Z-9EC*s between 2009 and 2010 to support their F-22P frigates. These were upgraded with RWRs on both sides of the nose.

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> yes. navy had to activate it due to loss of P3C's.



Janab ... Last Atlantic is now resting in PAF Museum and retired almost a year ago.


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## fatman17

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Janab ... Last Atlantic is now resting in PAF Museum and retired almost a year ago.


 
janab u r wrong....


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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> janab u r wrong....



Here Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts. | Page 258

You were claiming the same in February when Imran Khan replied you with the news and picture of last Atlantic 94 at PAF Museum Karachi.




Imran Khan said:


> *Good Bye Atlantic*
> 
> Wed Sep 05, 2012
> 
> *September 5 -* Today, Pakistan Navy at a ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, phased out veteran Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic reconnaissance/patrol/anti-submarine/anti-ship aircraft. Atlantic aircraft serial number '94' was present at this ceremony.
> 
> The twin-engine turboprop aircraft type served Pakistan Navy for 36 years from 1976 to 2012 and flew a total of 7,700 missions accumulating more than 28,000 flight hours.
> 
> Quoted below is information on Pakistan Navy website (*www.paknavy.gov.pk*) about 29 Anti-Submarine Warfare Squadron (ASW) that was raised with the induction of Atlantic aircraft in 1976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .Pakistan Navy Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic (serial number 94 / construction number 63) that was seen at aircraft type's retirement ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, on September 5, 2012, has been preserved at Paksitan Air Force (PAF) Museum in Karachi.





Here, have a good read on Atlantic Retirement over here History of PIA - Forum :: View topic - Pakistan Navy Phases Out Breguet Atlantic Aircraft


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## fatman17

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Here Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts. | Page 258
> 
> You were claiming the same in February when Imran Khan replied you with the news and picture of last Atlantic 94 at PAF Museum Karachi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, have a good read on Atlantic Retirement over here History of PIA - Forum :: View topic - Pakistan Navy Phases Out Breguet Atlantic Aircraft


 
janab u r right based on this article but the base attack happened later and thus the atlantic was put back in service. i see it flying over defence ph-6 all the time.

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> janab u r right based on this article but the *base attack happened later* and thus the atlantic was put back in service. i see it flying over defence ph-6 all the time.



Sir jee, where are you living these days  Meharn base attack happened way back in *May 2011* and Atlantic retired in *Sep 2012.*

PNS Mehran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last time, I myself saw it flying from Jinnah Airport once in Jan or Feb 2012 but never saw it again. Also, I work near Faisal base and daily see Fokker, P-3, C-130, Z-9, Sea King, Alloute etc but never saw any Atlantic recently.

Plus, if you see recent s-image at G-Map .. you don't see any Atlantic anymore.

Google Maps


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## Danish saleem

Asalam-o-alikum,

1 atlantic also at display in PAF museum and another one in Navel Museum.

Danish


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## fatman17



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## Shabi1

Could be interesting for Pakistan. I would still favor the Y-8s latest MPA version because of its ability to carry Chinese missiles.



*Farnborough 2014: Saab shows off new Swordfish MPA*
*Gareth Jennings, Farnborough* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
14 July 2014






A model of the Saab 2000 Swordfish MPA was displayed on the company's stand at Farnborough, with a poster of the Saab 340 MSA in the background. Source: IHS/Gareth Jennings
Saab's concept for an anti-submarine warfare (ASW) maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) broke cover on 14 July with a scale model being displayed at the Farnborough Airshow.

Although the company has previously revealed the existence of its Saab 2000 Swordfish MPA, Farnborough marked the first time that officials were openly discussing the project to the press, which could for the first time see a scale representation of the platform.

The campaign leader for the Swordfish, Matthew Smith, told _IHS Jane's_ that the aircraft has been in development for a number of years, and that it is now ready to be offered to the market place.

As noted by Smith, the MPA build on the heritage of the Saab 2000 Erieye airborne warning and control platform, and utilises many of its electronic warfare and self-protection systems as well as mission equipment hardware (work consoles) for type commonality. It is also intended to be a complement, rather than a rival, to the Saab 340 Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (MSA), which is geared more towards the civil coastguard market.






A cutaway display of the MPA also seen on the stand gives a view of the aircraft's internal workings. (IHS/Gareth Jennings)


"We know the customer needs around ASW, and our concept is advanced and sound," Smith said. "It uses world-leading commercial off-the-shelf systems and sensors in cost-effective platforms".

These systems and sensors include the Selex 7500 Seaspray maritime surveillance radar, a FLIR Systems electro-optical/infrared turret, Automatic Identification System and Direction Finder, satellite communications, electronic support measures, and self-protection pods as well as tactical datalinks. Internally, four mission stations are provided, as are auxiliary fuel tanks, a rotating sonobuoy launcher, and in-flight-operable cargo door for the dropping of life rafts and the like.

Smith declined to comment on the Swordfish's potential weapons load, or even if these would be carried on underwing hardpoints or in an internal bay. While he did say that Saab is in discussions with a number of interested parties, he chose not to name them at this time.

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## Edevelop

The first ATR-72 for Pakistan Navy

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## Basel

which plane is better in performance for MPA SAAB or ATR??


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## fatman17

Z-9EC on F-22P Deck




PN - F27-400

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## Shabi1

Basel said:


> which plane is better in performance for MPA SAAB or ATR??



Actually neither has an offensive punch like PNs P-3Cs at the moment.

ATR is operational as a surveillance MPA but hasnt had weapons integration yet, so far they have contracted a partner to integrate torpedoes. Harpoon is expected but work hasnt been contracted for it yet.

Saab Swordfish only exists on paper and is advertised as network centric MPA. Weapons information not available.

The aircraft which packs the most punch after the P-3C is the Chinese Y-8Q. It hasall the features of a P-3C plus an optical tracking system. And can carry Chinese anti ship missiles which have a longer range than the Harpoon.




Chinese Y-8Q GX6 Maritime Patrol and Anti-submarine Warfare Aircraft | Chinese Military Review

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## Basel

Shabi1 said:


> Actually neither has an offensive punch like PNs P-3Cs at the moment.
> ATR is operational as a surveillance MPA but hasnt had weapons integration yet, so far they have contracted a partner to integrate torpedoes. Harpoon is expected but work hasnt been contracted for it yet.
> Saab Swordfish only exists on paper and is advertised as network centric MPA. Weapons information not available.
> The aircraft which packs the most punch after the P-3C is the Chinese Y-8Q. It hasall the features of a P-3C plus an optical tracking system. And can carry Chinese anti ship missiles which have a longer range than the Harpoon.



But P-3s are long range long endurance MPAs, SAAB & ATR are medium range medium endurance planes totally different class, and what I want to know is their capabilities as planes and what they can carry as compared to each other, means which one will be better for Medium MPA role if all goodies are available to be fitted?


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## fatman17

P-3C is the most widely used MPA





PN Seaking ASW




PN Seaking Sqn at Fleet Review.

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## Rashid Mahmood

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 40114
> 
> PN Seaking ASW



Sea King carrying out a Rappelling procedure with PNS Tariq.


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## Shabi1

Ozair Akhtar said:


> I think whether its Pak Military or PIA they should have give off F-27 Fokker and make it an Air Mail plane that would be delivering Mails and other small packages to far distances quicker and cheaper way. I am sure PIA or any other private company of Pakistan would like to operate it as.



PIA replaced its Fokkers years ago with ATRs and the recent acquisition by PN of ATRs is for replacing the Fokkers as well.

Fokker fleet has completed its long service, no more flying.


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## nomi007

sea king


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## fatman17

Seaking Firing Exocet.




Seaking Night Landing.




Seaking Armed with AM-39 Exocet.




Lynx - now retired.

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## Juggernautjatt

How many Sea Kings are in service with PN & how old are they ?


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## TOPGUN

Juggernautjatt said:


> How many Sea Kings are in service with PN & how old are they ?




I think 6 are in service , old I am not sure and they are able to fire Exocet missiles ...

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## Capt.Popeye

Juggernautjatt said:


> How many Sea Kings are in service with PN & how old are they ?



If I'm not mistaken: 6 Westland Seakings in 111 ASW Sqdn operating out of PNS Mehran. They were acquired from UK in 1974. As one can see; they are thus older than the IN's operational Seakings. The first batch of IN's Seakings were contemporaries of these Helos but got retired with INS Vikrant and the remaining examples became Museum pieces.
However @fatman_17 can confirm that information re PN..

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## Myth_buster_1

cb4 said:


> The first ATR-72 for Pakistan Navy



useless for defence. More for VIP then hunting/gathering.


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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> If I'm not mistaken: 6 Westland Seakings in 111 ASW Sqdn operating out of PNS Mehran. They were acquired from UK in 1974.



How come Pakistan hasn't started a JV with China on building some heli's for the PN and for the PA which can later be produced within Pakistan itself? The Chinese are producing about 5 different types of helis...

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## Capt.Popeye

orangzaib said:


> How come Pakistan hasn't started a JV with China on building some heli's for the PN and for the PA which can later be produced within Pakistan itself? The Chinese are producing about 5 different types of helis...



The possible and likely causes for that:
1. Economic/Funding issues.
2. At least two of those Helos are actually French, so licensing issues.
3. The other putative local designs (from Kamov) have not fully matured yet, hence they may not be on offer, _or_ the PAF/PN may not be looking at them yet. While the Turkish Helo was looked at but ran into considerations 1 & 2.

OTOH, 'your country' could well have offered assistance to your country in this regard. But did not; whatever the reasons may be.

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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> OTOH, 'your country' could well have offered assistance to your country in this regard. But did not; whatever the reasons may be.



OTOH, time for you guys to start running your own destiny and not beg for everything. On one hand you guys ask for "assistance" and on the other, you guys have attitude and hatred towards the US. Speaks volume for how you look at us. The reason is very simple, we'll give you what we think is in our best interest to give and in your best interest to get as aid or at a significantly lowered price. If you guys want to talk like customers with Cash on hand, whole different story. That's why I even brought up the idea of Chinese JV to begin with.
Isn't it interesting that on one hand you have people supporting forceful destruction of the ONLY working democratic system that could turn the tide for Pakistan's economy in its favor? You think Western nations aren't watching that? We all think that this is how Pakistan and Pakistanis are, so why not leave them alone as the culture and sentiment on everything tends to be very extremist and undemocratic. That is ALSO playing a huge role in items being denied to Pakistan.


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## fatman17

Myth_buster_1 said:


> useless for defence. More for VIP then hunting/gathering.


 
will be converted to MPA with either Turkish Milgem system or systems from F-27s will be transplanted.



Capt.Popeye said:


> If I'm not mistaken: 6 Westland Seakings in 111 ASW Sqdn operating out of PNS Mehran. They were acquired from UK in 1974. As one can see; they are thus older than the IN's operational Seakings. The first batch of IN's Seakings were contemporaries of these Helos but got retired with INS Vikrant and the remaining examples became Museum pieces.
> However @fatman_17 can confirm that information re PN..


 
all MK-45's are going thru an upgrade.

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## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> Rofl.. had a feeling it was all about how better the IN is with the P-8..
> 
> Nothing to do with suggesting the P-8 for the PN..
> 
> The PN's shipborne UAV demand is squirming again..
> This time there is a local aspirant involved.. developed by a bunch of NUSTians.





Which college to be specific ?


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 39502
> Z-9EC on F-22P Deck
> 
> View attachment 39503
> PN - F27-400


Z-9EC on alamgir ship Deck


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## IceCold

orangzaib said:


> OTOH, time for you guys to start running your own destiny and not beg for everything. On one hand you guys ask for "assistance" and on the other, you guys have attitude and hatred towards the US. Speaks volume for how you look at us. The reason is very simple, we'll give you what we think is in our best interest to give and in your best interest to get as aid or at a significantly lowered price. If you guys want to talk like customers with Cash on hand, whole different story. That's why I even brought up the idea of Chinese JV to begin with.
> Isn't it interesting that on one hand you have people supporting forceful destruction of the ONLY working democratic system that could turn the tide for Pakistan's economy in its favor? You think Western nations aren't watching that? We all think that this is how Pakistan and Pakistanis are, so why not leave them alone as the culture and sentiment on everything tends to be very extremist and undemocratic. That is ALSO playing a huge role in items being denied to Pakistan.



Just so you know he is an Indian and not a Pakistani.


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## Viper0011.

IceCold said:


> Just so you know he is an Indian and not a Pakistani.


I think the message and the content was what mattered, as posts are read by a bunch of different people (primarily the Pakistanis), and that was my audience.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> OTOH, time for you guys to start running your own destiny and not beg for everything. On one hand you guys ask for "assistance" and on the other, you guys have attitude and hatred towards the US. Speaks volume for how you look at us. The reason is very simple, we'll give you what we think is in our best interest to give and in your best interest to get as aid or at a significantly lowered price. If you guys want to talk like customers with Cash on hand, whole different story. That's why I even brought up the idea of Chinese JV to begin with.
> Isn't it interesting that on one hand you have people supporting forceful destruction of the ONLY working democratic system that could turn the tide for Pakistan's economy in its favor? You think Western nations aren't watching that? We all think that this is how Pakistan and Pakistanis are, so why not leave them alone as the culture and sentiment on everything tends to be very extremist and undemocratic. That is ALSO playing a huge role in items being denied to Pakistan.



Quite interesting as most of the US significant Military Aid came to pakistan during dictatorial regime aimed to be fielded against a democratic Neighbor.


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## mourning sage

Oscar said:


> Rofl.. had a feeling it was all about how better the IN is with the P-8..
> 
> Nothing to do with suggesting the P-8 for the PN..
> 
> The PN's shipborne UAV demand is squirming again..
> This time there is a local aspirant involved.. developed by a bunch of NUSTians.



Hey!
can you be more specific about the college which is developing this UAV? There is an Unmanned helicopter developed by my college, but that is only for rescue missions, not particularly military.


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## Donatello

sandy_3126 said:


> Quite interesting as most of the US significant Military Aid came to pakistan during dictatorial regime aimed to be fielded against a democratic Neighbor.




and why do Indians always appear perturbed by that?


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## Zarvan

_





*THATTA: An unmanned aircraft of Pakistan Navy crashed near the newly formed Sajawal District of Sindh on Wednesday, Geo News reported.*

According to police, the incident occurred in Sajawal District where the remote-controlled Navy aircraft came down in the open field today morning. Fortunately, no loss of life was reported in the incident.
Pak Navy unmanned jet crashes near Sajawal | PAKISTAN - geo.tv_


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## fatman17




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## Basel

In a week Pakistan lost 2 UAVs one of PAF & one of PN both were near border area, is it possible that India may have jammed their communications to show their capabilities??

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## fatman17

Could the Z-18 ASW replace the Seaking Mk-45 in PN service.



Basel said:


> In a week Pakistan lost 2 UAVs one of PAF & one of PN both were near border area, is it possible that India may have jammed their communications to show their capabilities??


 
were they operating on eastern border?





F-27 PN.

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## Basel

@fatman17 yes, both were flying near eastern border.


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## fatman17

Basel said:


> @fatman17 yes, both were flying near eastern border.


 
*PAF’s pilotless aircraft crashes near Sargodha...*


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## nomi007

these are ex-paa helos

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## fatman17

Seaking launches AM-39 Exocet.

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## fatman17

"While they (PLAN) finally have a Y-8 maritime patrol aircraft, it's still years behind P-3C and serving too small in number"


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## fatman17

PNS Mehran


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## DANGER-ZONE

Doing a engine run on its parking location while the crew observes the engine #3 running.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 44453
> 
> Could the Z-18 ASW replace the Seaking Mk-45 in PN service.
> 
> 
> 
> were they operating on eastern border?
> 
> View attachment 44454
> 
> F-27 PN.



Z-18F should be able to serve on CV-16 along with large future combatants likes Type 055 and LHD/LPD classes. Z-18F is larger than other ASW helicopters like SH-60, NH-90 and Ka-28. It can carry more sonobuoy and has more snobuoy openings than SH-60. It can also carry dipping sonar along with up to 4 Torpedoes. The rest of the electronics and combat system has been upgraded from Z-8 with a new large surface search radar and modern MAWS and RWR antennas. It also has the range to really hunt modern nuclear submarines. That's why it is expected to be a part of the air wing of CV-16 and future Chinese carriers


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## Rain

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 45504
> 
> Seaking launches AM-39 Exocet.
> 
> View attachment 45505


Surface is too heavily dented. Can it be repaired?


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## fatman17

Rain said:


> Surface is too heavily dented. Can it be repaired?



no need.....


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## fatman17

Naval art by PN seamen

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## Windjammer



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## Rashid Mahmood

Rain said:


> Surface is too heavily dented. Can it be repaired?



They are not dents......


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## GHOST RIDER

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 104262



Do Z-9EC have foldable tail and rotors ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

GHOST RIDER said:


> Do Z-9EC have foldable tail and rotors ?



Rotors are foldable,
Tail is not.


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## Arsalan

GHOST RIDER said:


> Do Z-9EC have foldable tail and rotors ?



The main rotors can fold to be accommodated in the hanger but not the tail.


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## Rain

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Doing a engine run on its parking location while the crew observes the engine #3 running.


Location is not Pakistan. Where the pics been taken? any idea?


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## nomi007

Rain said:


> Location is not Pakistan. Where the pics been taken? any idea?


probably in Perth 2012-2013

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## Rashid Mahmood

Rain said:


> Location is not Pakistan. Where the pics been taken? any idea?



*86* P-3C for the Pakistan Navy at Lajes, Portugal.
Lajes is a permanent stop for PAF/PN aircraft coming from Europe.


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## fatman17

F-27 Freezing in Netherlands.

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

Z-9 on deck...

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## hassan1



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## truthseeker2010

Boatswain's Mate 2nd Class John Acheson signals to the pilot of a Pakistan Alouette III helicopter that it is safe to lift-off from the guided-missile destroyer USS Mitscher (DDG 57). Mitscher is underway in the Arabian Gulf participating in the International Mine Countermeasures Exercise (IMCMEX). With a quarter of the world's navies participating including 6,500 Sailors from every region, IMCMEX is the largest international naval exercise promoting maritime security and the free-flow of trade through mine countermeasure operations, maritime security operations, and maritime infrastructure protection in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility and throughout the world. (U.S. Navy Photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Patrick W. Mullen III/Released)

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## fatman17

Naval Division operates under the flag of National Enterprises and caters the significant area of Naval aviation.

T 56 – 14 engines of P-3C Orion “Airborne Destroyer” which is a product of Rolls Royce is our strength. Being OEM we have already assisted in establishment and attainment of Authorized Military Overhaul Facility at Kamra. Our capability to support P3 in specific and Pakistan Naval Aviation Branch in general is our specialty. We ensure that Navy receives their spare and repair support as per our mission “On time with quality offering optimum cost”

Considering Pakistan’s geo-political situation Pakistan Navy has been focusing on strengthening all its dimensions including the aviation wing. Pakistan Naval, Air and Arm has taken remarkable steps forward towards strengthening and this important dimension of Pakistan Navy. By undertaking the task, Naval Division has been able to develop ironclad relations with Rolls Royce and Aviall to cater the depot level activity and have acquired support capability for future maintenance of P3C.

*P 3 Aircrafts and Pak Navy*
P3 aircrafts were flown to Pakistan in 1997. During 1999, 28 Maritime Strike Squadron actively participated in fleet operations. P-3C Orion is a four engine, highly maneuverable, all weather aircraft. It was primarily designed for reconnaissance, anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel operations. It is one of the fastest turbo prop aircrafts and widely used in Long Range Maritime Patrol (LRMP) in the world. The aircraft is 116 ft. long with a maximum speed of 410 kts. By virtue of its extraordinary weapon carrying capability its distinguished features are :

Long endurance
Multiple role capability 
Variety of integrated sensors
Capacity to carry a wide array of anti-surface and subsurface weapons like harpoon, torpedoes, depth charges, mines and rockets.

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## Super Falcon

We neeed more good helicopter why navy dont have any heavy lifter heli like stallion


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

So here is rough inventory we have for our Aviation Corp

P-3C Orion - 7 (Good)
Westland Sea King - 6 (Keep , increase if possible to 20)
Hawker 800 - 1 (Keep)
Harbin Z-9 - 12 (Good - get 10 more)
Dassault Mirage 5 12 -18 (Enhance with 30 JF-17 Thunders Good)
ATR72-212A - 2 (Get 5+ More)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Breguet Atlantic  - 2  (Retire) 
Fokker F27  - 5  (Retire)
Alouette III SA-319B - 8 (Retire this Already)



Navy: Pakistan navy could plan to enhance the Aviation Corp as follow

*Special Ops Missions: **30 Aérospatiale SA 321 Super Frelon, reserve for special missions or transport of troops *







Increase the Number of
*Harbin Z-9* - Purchase 10 more units







*ATR-72*
Get 5 more (Navy Transportation Needs)







Get Chinese Wing Long UAV, Purchase 20 units
Let this take place of the Alouette III , its a armed unit can recon and also attack




These can be controlled from the Ships






Get 10 MI-14 Helicopters for Search and Rescue missions

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## nomi007

when will be Westland Sea King will be replaced any idea


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I hear Sea King is a very Solid platform , if anything it should be retained and if we can get more units get them


We need to get more of these not end these babies these are called "KING" for reason

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## razgriz19

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I hear Sea King is a very Solid platform , if anything it should be retained and if we can get more units get them
> 
> 
> We need to get more of these not end these babies these are called "KING" for reason



all good things come to an end. This "King" was made in 60s. Its done its job, I'm sure PN will start to fish for another platform in a few years


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We the Sea King platform is the helo of choice for US / UK/ Canada 

So not sure .. why its not good enough for us


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## niaz

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We the Sea King platform is the helo of choice for US / UK/ Canada
> 
> So not sure .. why its not good enough for us



Because these days we are in the 'Chinese' phase, all other things are "Condemn" ( in the local jargon meaning useless).


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We could get Sea King as its most commonly used helicopter in Navies and Marines , a logical choice for Navy at least, as the existing fleet will retire , we could get these as EDA


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## fatman17

Z-8 ASW/SAR

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Z-8 is great platform , can take troops and supplies 

and enough Power to even carry some useful tools


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## nomi007

good news is that our relation with russia are going good
pak navy also consider ka-28 or any other russian helo to replace old helo

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Myth_buster_1 said:


> useless for defence. More for VIP then hunting/gathering.



I am sure if need be these can be handy , transport new crew close to ships

Transport food/ medical supplies etc

Not to mention if needed these can be converted into different usage







Might as well move some of the equipment salvaged from the P3Orion incident








Pretty decent & with our own technology perhaps we can add our own Missiles and Cruise missile support to plane


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## fatman17

*March 6, 2010*
*Air Support at Sea – 1971 War *

At the outbreak of the war, PAF’s maritime support capability of any consequence was limited to night bombing of a couple of Indian Navy’s coastal installations on the Saurashtra Coast and, daytime strafing and rocketing of not-too-distant surface vessels. Measures to locate these vessels were largely of passive nature and, rested on Pak Navy’s shore and sea-based signals intelligence gathering network. Unhappily, at the outbreak of hostilities, much of the communications and radar transmissions had gone discrete and, signals intelligence had all but dried up. Active measures included surface surveillance by a SUPARCO[1]-loaned radar located at Manora, which had been picking contacts as far as 100-nm on occasions, when the somewhat irregular phenomenon of ‘anomalous propagation’[2] was experienced. Ships at sea were good only for more localised flotilla surveillance and, at great risk of giving away their position while their radars transmitted.

Airborne maritime reconnaissance was the optimum and most reliable method, but with Pak Navy lacking any organic air capability, employing the services of PAF’s small transport fleet of six C-130s remained the next best alternative. However, with the planned commitment of the C-130s for unconventional bombing missions, these could not be spared, reportedly. Instead, the C-in-C directed the Managing Director PIA, Air Vice Marshal Zafar Chaudhry to make some assets available to Pak Navy. One Fokker F-27 along with its volunteer civilian crew was put at the disposal of the Navy before the war started. The weather radar of the F-27 aircraft could also provide rudimentary search capability over a calm sea and could, therefore, be utilised at night as well. The Indian Navy, of course, understood that in practical terms Pak Navy’s search capability was of little consequence and, it was surmised that the window of the night offered the maximum chances of sneaking in, unobserved.

According to Indian Navy’s appreciation, if it could take the battle to Pakistani waters at the outset, it would force Pak Navy to abort any offensive plans and, bottle up her surface fleet inside the harbour for the remaining period of war. The planners were also confident that such a move could wipe off Indian Navy’s craven image going back to the 1965 War, when the puny Pak Navy had carried out a daring and morale-shattering raid on Dwarka naval establishment, without being challenged.

Borrowing a leaf from the Dwarka annals – but planning more cerebrally – the Indian Navy decided to hit Pak Navy warships patrolling the outer and inner cordons of Karachi harbour. With the newly-acquired Soviet Osa missile boats, there was no need to get close and exchange broadsides in the old manner. By hugging the Saurashtra-Kutch coast at high speed, the task force would be able to avoid the Pakistani submarines prowling not too far. Arrival at nightfall was a clever safeguard against visual spotting from the air, as the flotilla broke off westwards to take up battle station south of Karachi. A night visual attack on the ships by PAF aircraft was, thus, also out of question.

By 2 December, the main body of the Indian Western Fleet, comprising 13 ships, had already set sail for an area 200-nm south of Karachi and beyond to interdict merchant shipping, but with a more immediate purpose of diverting attention from Operation ‘Trident’ that was to unfold shortly.

*The Cordon is Pierced*
On the night of 4 December, at 2010 hrs (all times PST), the duty officer at Manora radar picked up a surface contact at a distance of 75-nm on a bearing of 165° from Karachi. The contact was immediately reported to Maritime Headquarters (MHQ). Half an hour later, another contact was picked up at a distance of 100-nm south of Karachi and, duly reported. After an inexplicably long delay, a signal was issued by MHQ at 2200 hrs, warning ships at sea of two surface groups[3] heading towards Karachi. PNS _Khaibar_, a destroyer which was patrolling the outer cordon, was ordered to investigate. Apparently not responding due to radio silence measures on board, it headed south, as per orders.[4]

At 2245 hrs, watches on board _Khaibar_ reported what appeared like a bright light heading towards them at high speed; everyone took it to be an attacking aircraft in afterburners. The Commanding Officer, Cdr M N Malik, who had rushed to the bridge, ordered the ship’s anti-aircraft guns to open fire. Just then, a deafening explosion was heard as the glowing object slammed into the aft galley, below deck, and blew up the boiler room. Flames leapt upwards as sailors rushed helter-skelter, some trying to jettison the torpedoes, others trying to put out the fires. A hasty message was transmitted to MHQ, informing that, “enemy aircraft attacked…, boiler hit, ship stopped.” A few minutes later, another eerie glow was observed heading towards the stricken ship and, in no time, it tore into the second boiler room with an intense explosion. Uncontrollable fires enveloped the ship and ammunition started to explode. As it started to list, some men jumped overboard from the sinking ship. PNS _Khaibar_ finally went down, taking with her 222 ill-fated hands.

PNS _Muhafiz_, a minesweeper, sailed out to relieve the survey vessel PNS _Zulfiqar,_ which was patrolling Karachi harbour’s inner cordon. Arriving on station at 2245 hrs, she was just in time to witness the fireworks in the outer patrol area. Altering her course and heading south to investigate the fiery glow on the horizon, Lt Cdr M S Usmani, the Commanding Officer of _Muhafiz _feared the worst. Suddenly, a speeding light was seen to be headed towards his own ship. Moments later, a swishing object smashed into the minesweeper and exploded with such force that it disintegrated the wooden vessel into pieces. Some of those who had been thrown overboard on impact managed to swim away, but 33 others went down in this second deadly attack, barely twenty minutes after the first one.

The Indian Navy task force had included two frigates for submarine screening and three missile boats for the actual attack. INS _Nirghat_ was the first to engage and it fired two Styx missiles that hit PNS _Khaibar_. The next to fire two missiles was INS _Nipat _but its victim remained a mystery for some time till the sunken wreck of SS _Venus Challenger_, a Liberian merchant ship, was found by navy divers 26-nm south of Karachi, some days after the war ended. _Nipat _also fired a third missile at the harbour a little later, which hit some oil storage tanks at Keamari terminal. Last to fire was INS _Veer _whose single missile hit PNS _Muhafiz_.

Having resoundingly achieved its objective, the task force sped back under cover of darkness to rendezvous with a waiting tanker for refuelling. By dawn of next day, the task force had cleared the estimated strike range of PAF fighters and, was homeward bound. An IAF fighter patrol had been arranged to cover the task force just in case, but no PAF fighters were encountered.

Shocked and demoralised by the surprise attack, a hapless Pak Navy struggled to cope with the crisis that had literally exploded at her doorstep. The PAF, none too happy about its own plight in the south, could only sympathise with its sister service in this sombre situation.

In the aftermath of the attack, an urgent Air Priority Board meeting was asked for (on 5 December) and, Pak Navy was able to muster a motley fleet of aircraft[5] including some more from PIA and different government departments, for the purpose of enhancing maritime reconnaissance measures. Most of them were light aircraft and might have been suitable for daytime ‘coast guard’ duties, at best. Nonetheless, with the warships bottled up in the harbour or hidden away around Cape Monze and Gadani, additional aircraft for patrolling were considered a welcome help for the overworked PIA F-27. It was to be seen if the desperate measure meant anything.

*Hitting Back*

In the wake of the missile attack, Pak Navy felt – almost as an after-thought – that the home base of the missile boats at Okha needed to be taken out. In all likelihood, the tit-for-tat raid serving as a retribution of sorts would have been uppermost in the minds of the Naval Staff. In any case, the necessity of tackling the threat of missile boats also sank in at PAF’s COC and it was agreed to attack Okha harbour. Of course, it was not expected that the missile boats would still be berthed at the quay-side in Okha. As a matter of fact, these had already been dispersed to smaller locations along the Saurashtra Coast, even before the war had started. Nonetheless, it was the considered opinion of Pak Navy that a hit on the infrastructure could hamper missile boat operations to some extent.

On the evening of 5 December, Flt Lt Shabbir A Khan was standing out on the B-57 tarmac watching preparations for the night missions, when he was informed about being detailed for a strike on Okha harbour. He, along with his navigator, Sqn Ldr Ansar Ahmad, rushed off to the operations room to start planning the mission. Two hours after moonrise seemed like a good selection of the TOT, as the glimmering sea would clearly outline the edges of the darkened harbour.

Taking off at 2210 hrs, the B-57 got a fiery send-off as the AAA opened up in the nearby Karachi harbour, signalling an air raid. Continuing the take-off, Shabbir and Ansar settled down to watch – with unnerving anticipation – the moonbeams dazzling the creeks and estuaries of the Kutch Coast to their port side. Finally, turning to the attack heading, they picked up a sizeable flotilla on their radar, about 20-nm to their starboard. There was a temptation to go for the ships, but discipline prevailed and they continued for the designated target. Reaching the pull-up point, Shabbir pushed the throttles to 100% power, while Ansar started to guide him into the attack. Just when Shabbir pressed the bomb release button and there was no release, Ansar realised that he had forgotten to arm the release switch. In a fraction of a second he flipped the switch on and Shabbir pipped the button again, pulling out of the dive narrowly. After some 10-odd seconds, there was a tremendous flash of light and the aircraft shook up with the blast. A direct hit had been achieved as nine 500-lb bombs slammed into fuel tanks and other stores at the harbour. In the meantime AAA had started to fire and the sky seemed ablaze. Shabbir and Ansar saw the shells continuously exploding along the aircraft’s flight path but luckily, the bomber escaped unscathed.

The attack had been a tremendous success and, news that the home base of the missile boats was in flames turned out to be thoroughly cathartic for all and sundry in the Pak Navy and PAF. A pair of F-104s which visited Okha for another attack four days later, reported that the harbour was still smouldering and the smoke could be seen from as far as 60-nm. The Indian _Official History of 1971 Indo-Pak War_ notes that, “two air attacks were also carried out on Okha and some fuel tanks were set ablaze, thereby denying the missile boats any further use of this port as a forward base.”[6]

*Harbour in Flames*

Seeing the success of Operation ‘Trident’ which had resulted in huddling up of Pak Navy ships in the harbour, Indian Navy decided that the main force of the Western Fleet would carry out a similar attack from the unexpected south-westerly direction, the very next night. However, breakdown of two vessels forced the withdrawal of a group of five,[7] which sailed back home and consequently, the attack had to be postponed. Subsequent snags, and then bad weather, delayed the operation further.

On the night of 8/9 December, at around 2245 hrs, lookouts at Manora suddenly picked up the infamous glow hurtling towards them, then crossing overhead and slamming into the nearby oil tank farms at Keamari.[8] A tremendous fire engulfed the terminal and the whole harbour lit up, visible from miles. Distressingly, fires lit by an earlier air attack on the morning of 4 December had been laboriously put out just a day earlier.

A few minutes after the first attack, another missile hit the anchored British-owned merchant ship _Harmatton_, causing it to sink in no time. This was immediately followed by a third missile which hit the _SS Gulf Star_, also anchored, flying the Panamanian flag. It survived the attack with serious damage.[9]

A fourth missile hit PNS _Dacca_, the Navy’s supply ship which was idling in the harbour for maintenance, having been out at sea for 25 days at a stretch. A portion of the ship caught fire but, due to the courage and presence of mind of its Officer Commanding, Cdr S Q Raza, the steam smothering system was operated and a major explosion averted; the fires were put out by midnight. By next evening, power had been restored and the ship was moved further inshore, where she remained till the end of the war.

The attacking force had consisted of three frigates escorting the missile boat INS _Vinash_. All four missiles were fired by this boat from a distance of 12 miles from the harbour. After the attack, the group was able to make a getaway without any hitch and, rendezvoused with the Western Fleet flagship INS _Mysore_ for a return to Bombay.

The operation had again been thoroughly successful and rendered Pak Navy’s surface fleet incapable of any operation during the war. However, it must be said that if international conventions on declaring and enforcing a blockade had been heeded to by the Indian Navy, at least the loss of lives on-board foreign merchant shipping could have been avoided.

*Whither PAF?*

With ‘do-it-yourself’ maritime reconnaissance in the hands of PIA and Pak Navy, PAF was expected to only carry out anti-surface vessel attacks during daytime. It is alleged that PAF was called out many times but the usual refrain was that ‘effort was not available’. What is known is that PAF flew 22 day missions (F-86E and F-104) and 10 night missions (B-57 and T-33) searching for enemy missile boats and other ships, none of which were successful. Regrettably, the reports of sighting of enemy ships were either bogus or, the ships were incorrectly located. On one occasion, for instance, PNS _Zulfiqar_ was strafed west of Cape Monze by a pair of F-86s, after the target was repeatedly confirmed by a frantic MHQ as being hostile.

It is evident that the fundamental problem of maritime support lay in the inadequacy of airborne maritime reconnaissance, as the platforms were under-equipped and crew untrained. With Pak Navy officers on-board the F-27 aircraft having no prior experience in this role and their PIA pilots literally finding themselves at sea, the outcome could not have been any better. Sadly, but not surprisingly, the PIA Fokker F-27 (AP-ALX) crashed on the night of 12/13 December off the Makran Coast while on a recce mission, killing its crew of four.[10] In all probability, the fatigued pilots were disoriented in a pitch dark night, as the aircraft descended uncontrollably into the coastal Ras Malan Hills. The wreckage of the F-27 was found after the war.

On at least three occasions at night, Indian Navy task groups were reportedly located by the recce aircraft,[11] but these reports could not be followed up with actual strikes as PAF aircraft were not equipped with any aids for sighting and attacking ships at night. In all three cases, the ships had taken evasive measures and had broken off from the area by daybreak and, were not traceable. It is open to question if the attacking aircraft would have been able to successfully penetrate the formidable AAA screen of the task groups for a close-in dive attack, even at daytime. Not the least, lacking any practical training in the anti-shipping role whatsoever, PAF pilots were not expected to blast away bridges and boiler rooms during their first lessons at sea.

It may also be opportune to clarify that of the 127 visual reconnaissance sorties that were ‘made available’, as the _Story of the Pakistan Air Force – Saga of Courage and Honour_ states,[12] PIA flew 59 sorties while other civilian aircraft flew 68 sorties, all with their own crew. Even though the effort did not yield any concrete results, the dedication of the volunteer pilots is, indeed, commendable.

On one occasion on 10 December, while on an unusual maritime recce mission in a F-104 searching for Osa boats, Wg Cdr Arif Iqbal chanced upon an Indian Navy Alizé maritime patrol aircraft off Jakhau on the Saurashtran Coast. The hapless aircraft jinked and thrashed about very low over the water as Arif settled behind it with some difficulty. The Alizé was seen to tumble into the sea eventually; whether it was the result of gunfire or, was due to a wingtip grazing the swells, remains moot.[13] The patrolling Alizé was part of a massive hunt for Pak Navy submarine PNS _Hangor_ in the eastern Arabian Sea, after she had sunk an Indian Navy frigate INS _Khukri_ the previous morning and escaped successfully.

The sum total of all the help that PAF could provide to Pak Navy was only one successful strike against the enemy missile boat facility at Okha harbour. Planners at both services headquarters must have rued their vacillation in striking a couple of harbours on Saurashtra Coast as an opening gambit of the war. An audacious and imaginative plan might have included a staged-through attack on Bombay harbour too, à la Agra strike.[14] Arguably, the Styx missile attacks of 4/5 December may have been preventable after all, if the later raid on Okha was anything to go by.

_______________________

[1] Space and Upper Atmospheric Research Committee.
[2] Long ranges are possible under conditions of anomalous propagation of radio waves that is particularly prevalent in winter months in the Arabian Sea.
[3] The one nearer to Karachi was the group of three missile boats and the further one was the pair of frigates.
[4] Contrary to some writings that PNS _Khaibar_ was caught unawares, the Indian _Official History of 1971 Indo-Pak War_ confirms that the first target that INS _Nirghat_ engaged had been “zigzagging, revealing hostile intentions,” before heading towards the task force. “This ship continued coming towards the task force and was quickly reducing distance.” (Chapter-XI, ‘Naval Operations in the Arabian Sea,’ page 472.)
[5] These additional aircraft included: 1xF-27 & 2xTwin Otters (PIA), 1xCessna 310 (Governor Punjab), 1xBeaver DHC-2 (Plant Protection Dept), 2xCessna 150 (Karachi Aero Club) and 1xAero Commander (PAF).
[6] Chapter-XI, ‘Naval Operations in the Arabian Sea,’ page 474.
[7] This was the group of vessels picked up by Flt Lt Shabbir A Khan and Sqn Ldr Ansar Ahmad on the B-57 radar while proceeding to attack Okha.
[8] Only one tank containing crude oil caught fire during the attack on the night of 8/9 Dec. This was stated by Mr M Niaz, who was the Sales Development Engineer of ESSO in 1971 and, led the team that put out the fire.
[9] _The New York Times_ correspondent Henry Kamm reported in his 11 December despatch that the wife and child of the Greek captain of _Gulf Star _were killed in the attack. He also reported that seven seamen were killed in the attack on _Harmatton_.
[10] The PIA crew included Captain Mubashir Hameed, First Officer Syed Khalid Javaid and Navigator B D Cheema. The PN observer on board was Lt Cdr A I Nagi. The loss of the F-27 has been recorded by CAA and PIA as 'missing on flight from Karachi to Zahedan, Iran.'
[11] The Indian_ Official History of 1971 Indo-Pak War_ confirms these three occasions: 1) "From evening of 3 Dec till 0200 hrs on 4 Dec, the Main Fleet was shadowed by three maritime aircraft." 2) "On 6 Dec, several enemy aircraft were shadowing additional vessels (Saurashtra Group) that were to join the Main Fleet south west of Karachi; as a consequence, the group had to turn back without joining the Main Fleet." 3) "At 2040 hrs on 8 Dec, two slow flying aircraft shadowed the Makran Group (INS _Mysore_, flagship of the Western Fleet)." The number of aircraft reported to be shadowing the ships far exceeds their availability with Pak Navy and, the author is inclined to believe that some of these aircraft may have belonged to foreign forces (likely USA), which may have entered the fray for keeping a tab on what was going on.
[12] 'A War Against Secession,' page 466.
[13] The aircraft belonged to Bombay-based No 310 Squadron of Indian Navy. The crew included the pilot Lt Cdr Ashok Roy and observers Lt H S Sirohi and Aircraftman Vijayan, none of whom survived.
[14] A two-ship B-57 strike on Bombay harbour, staged through Talhar, was planned but cancelled at the last moment, later during the war, according to Wg Cdr Akhtar Bukhari, the B-57 detachment commander at Masroor who was to fly the mission alongwith the Base Commander, Air Cdre Nazir Latif. Some B-57s had been modified to carry four F-86 drop tanks under the wings to be able to fly a lo-lo-lo profile. Two similar long-range strikes had been flown earlier by Mianwali-based B-57s when they staged-through Rafiqui (Shorkot) to attack distant Agra. 
_Acknowledgements are due to Air Marshal Zafar Choudhry (Retd), Vice Admiral Asif Humayun (Retd), Rear Admiral M A K Lodhi (Retd), Air Vice Marshal M Akhtar Bukhari (Retd) and Captain 'Johnny' Sadiq (PIA), for providing useful information for this article._

© M KAISER TUFAIL

_This article was published in *Defence Journal*, April 2010 issue._

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## niaz

I happened to be in the middle of Keamari oil storage tanks at that time. One large crude oil tank belonging to Pakistan refinery and two smaller furnace oil tanks of then 'Dawood Petroleum' caught fire. We were unable to put out the fire with the equipment available at that time. It eventually burnt itself out.

In the meantime nearby storage tanks were showered with sea water to keep fuel inside the tanks cool while the same was being pumped out to safer storage. Furnace oil does not burn easily and the sky over Keamari was covered with smoke for nearly a week. However actual damage to tank farm was far less than what appeared from outside.

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## fatman17

P3C underbelly with sonabouy launchers

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## fatman17

Atlantique landing at samugli in 2011.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

Atlantique

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## black-hawk_101

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I hear Sea King is a very Solid platform , if anything it should be retained and if we can get more units get them
> 
> 
> We need to get more of these not end these babies these are called "KING" for reason



These Kings should be upgraded and more ones should be inducted to PN.


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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> P3C underbelly with sonabouy launchers


Reminds one of a Sharks gills


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## wiseone2

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We the Sea King platform is the helo of choice for US / UK/ Canada
> 
> So not sure .. why its not good enough for us


It is used by the Indian navy


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## syedali73

niaz said:


> Because these days we are in the 'Chinese' phase, all other things are "Condemn" ( in the local jargon meaning useless).


Cost and 'strings' attached with Western hardware are two main reasons why we entered (or forced to enter by our western friends) into the so-called 'Chinese phase'. Otherwise almost every Pakistani personnel, engineer, and technician would prefer western hardware over Chinese.


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## Thorough Pro

and take off and land where?



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Get Chinese Wing Long UAV, Purchase 20 units
> Let this take place of the Alouette III , its a armed unit can recon and also attack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These can be controlled from the Ships







I think they are already retired.



nomi007 said:


> when will be Westland Sea King will be replaced any idea



For the last time, how old did you say you were?



Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ Why?? + yes but surely the P8 will be better off the bat than any UPG P-3, so why not?? Surely the IN having it is a threat to PN? The P-3 Can't compete.



it was bharat



viper46 said:


> pehlay daytay hain phir hamla karwa kar ura daytay hain


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## Arsalan

Thorough Pro said:


> and take off and land where?



Not saying that we SHOULD acquired these but just to answer your question, these are called MALE for a reason 9medium altitude, long endurance). The Wing Long have a reported range of 4000 Km, 20 hour endurance so they can be operated from land,, again, it have 4000 Km range!


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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Not saying that we SHOULD acquired these but just to answer your question, these are called MALE for a reason 9medium altitude, long endurance). The Wing Long have a reported range of 4000 Km, 20 hour endurance so they can be operated from land,, again, it have 4000 Km range!


Arsalan.
We don't currently have (to the best of my knowledge) the satellite cover needed to control it over 400 miles.As such it is a bit premature. I think they will make their way into PAF/ PAA in due course but till we have the necessary satellite coverage we will not be inducting those.
Araz

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Arsalan.
> We don't currently have (to the best of my knowledge) the satellite cover needed to control it over 400 miles.As such it is a bit premature. I think they will make their way into PAF/ PAA in due course but till we have the necessary satellite coverage we will not be inducting those.
> Araz


Thank for your input sir.
Well i dont think we will be going for them any time soon either,, i was just saying that landing or getting them in air is not a problem. Thorough Pro was probably referring that we do not have a a carrier to operate these from and so i just reminded that this wont be a problem as the range is enough to get these stationed at land and still be able to cover our seas. 
But thank you for sharing your views on satellite coverage... I guess with the BeiDou being developed that problem will be sorted. Still i do not feel that PN will be using these anytime soon.

regards!


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## fatman17

All 6 seakings are being upgraded / refurbished

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> All 6 seakings are being upgraded / refurbished


Will PN going to buy some 15-20 Sea Kings????


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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will PN going to buy some 15-20 Sea Kings????


Do we require such high numbers??


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## black-hawk_101

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do we require such high numbers??


I think so.


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## nomi007

*Ka-27PS* [URL='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r-__Byy3r10/VVAkKnASA_I/AAAAAAAALAk/PCzY2Ly7MBw/s1600/Ka-27.jpg']best alternative for sea king

[/URL]

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *Ka-27PS* [URL='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r-__Byy3r10/VVAkKnASA_I/AAAAAAAALAk/PCzY2Ly7MBw/s1600/Ka-27.jpg']best alternative for sea king
> 
> [/URL]




First you say Mi 17 are not reliable then you post a pic of a Russian helo suggesting we buy this. Make up your mind man

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## black-hawk_101

Sea King is Sea King. No one can match it at all. PN might have upgraded it and may be soon to see more coming in. As these helicopters are used even by Marines and Coast Guards too.


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> First you say Mi 17 are not reliable then you post a pic of a Russian helo suggesting we buy this. Make up your mind man


there is difference in between them


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> there is difference in between them



Oh ok

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## fatman17

SAR


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## fatman17

Z9ec


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## fatman17

Z9ec


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## fatman17

Alouette SAR


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## fatman17

The Atlantic was a pretty lethal weapons system of its time.

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## fatman17

The P3C can carry up to 4 Harpoon AShMs

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## fatman17

Seaking in SAR mode


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## fatman17

Seaking and its crew

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## Rashid Mahmood

fatman17 said:


> Seaking and its crew



I am in this picture.....
I had posted this pic some years ago.....

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## DANGER-ZONE

PN Atlantic firing Exocet Missile.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I am in this picture.....
> I had posted this pic some years ago.....


which one ?

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## Rashid Mahmood

Dr. Stranglove said:


> which one ?



Let it remain a mystery....

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## Arsalan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> PN Atlantic firing Exocet Missile.
> 
> View attachment 225687



These were pretty awesome planes of there age, decent firepower!! 

Any one here thinks that PN should go for some Chinese Maritime Patrol aircraft and anti-submarine aircraft in shape of Y-8? these will support our aging fleet of P3C

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Let it remain a mystery....





Arsalan said:


> These were pretty awesome planes of there age, decent firepower!!
> 
> Any one here thinks that PN should go for some Chinese Maritime Patrol aircraft and anti-submarine aircraft in shape of Y-8? these will support our aging fleet of P3C



To be a force multiplier ATR's should be added so that PN can continue with the French systems. The P3C's have a longer range then the ATR's.


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> To be a force multiplier ATR's should be added so that PN can continue with the French systems. The P3C's have a longer range then the ATR's.



European system, will be difficult to get, expensive to acquire, sanction prone, with French dealing with Indian on some mega deals i see this very unlikely to happen. What do you think?
Also by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> European system, will be difficult to get, expensive to acquire, sanction prone, with French dealing with Indian on some mega deals i see this very unlikely to happen. What do you think?
> Also by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?


PN is already operating ATR's and so does PIA. The Systems that are available are French and Turkish so there is a choice.

ATR 72 ASW performs Anti-Submarine and Anti-Surface warfare, in addition to standard Maritime Patrol Capabilities. ATR 72 ASW is provided with sono-buoys launcher, Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), Chaff and Flare, depth charge, torpedoes and antiship missiles. A Maritime Patrol version of ATR 72 is also available.

Though Exocet has been upgraded to MM40 Block 3.
Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles

If you are considering India's mega deals with France then you should get latest info. Naval subs contract is gone to Germany. The Rafale deals is now in doldrums because the funds are required to make protective hanger for SU-30 MKI's.
Centre scraps $20 billion MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets for IAF, LCA Tejas to replace MiG-21olitics :Videos


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PN is already operating ATR's and so does PIA. The Systems that are available are French and Turkish so there is a choice.
> View attachment 226049
> ATR 72 ASW performs Anti-Submarine and Anti-Surface warfare, in addition to standard Maritime Patrol Capabilities. ATR 72 ASW is provided with sono-buoys launcher, Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), Chaff and Flare, depth charge, torpedoes and antiship missiles. A Maritime Patrol version of ATR 72 is also available.
> 
> Though Exocet has been upgraded to MM40 Block 3.
> Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles
> 
> If you are considering India's mega deals with France then you should get latest info. Naval subs contract is gone to Germany. The Rafale deals is now in doldrums because the funds are required to make protective hanger for SU-30 MKI's.
> Centre scraps $20 billion MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets for IAF, LCA Tejas to replace MiG-21olitics :Videos


Again, by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?

AS for the Indian French deals, you cannot count the rafale deal as a total lost case. They still are going for planes from France, ave a large Mirage fleet and the Rafale, as i said is not a totally lost case. It is very likely that with LCA FOC delayed further IAF will go for more Rafales. Do not take the statement of that DM that seriously, that is they same stupid person who openly admitted Indian sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan! Also the very next day there was another statement by him claiming that IAF have option of getting more Rafale and may exercise that. So if by LATEST INFO you think that every thing is finalized now and everyone have played there hand and the table is stacked in our favor, unfortunately that is not the case.

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## DANGER-ZONE

PN P-3C Launching Harpoon Missile.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> Again, by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?
> 
> AS for the Indian French deals, you cannot count the rafale deal as a total lost case. They still are going for planes from France, ave a large Mirage fleet and the Rafale, as i said is not a totally lost case. It is very likely that with LCA FOC delayed further IAF will go for more Rafales. Do not take the statement of that DM that seriously, that is they same stupid person who openly admitted Indian sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan! Also the very next day there was another statement by him claiming that IAF have option of getting more Rafale and may exercise that. So if by LATEST INFO you think that every thing is finalized now and everyone have played there hand and the table is stacked in our favor, unfortunately that is not the case.



YES. French system is the updated Exocet. Though there is an other system that is being tested.

Rafale's are not going to come because if they do come it would be the last nail in the coffin for "MADE IN INDIA" policy. India would be going for LCA at all cost with or without the FOC. 

The time is of an essence for USA to offer the F-35's to India with a production line. Chances are that this is highly likely. This aircraft is going to solve the IAF and IN problems and would also allow USA to show China that if they try to arm Pakistan so they can arm India. 

If you are considering the possibility of USA giving India the option of firing Nuclear missiles then that would come from Israel. Even if India is not given (hypothetically) still Su-30 MKI's can do the job in a high low mix with the F-35's. 

USA would like to have India in their pockets because that would allow them to deny Asian domination. They would single handedly tell China and Russia that they are still a world power and they shall remain.


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> YES. French system is the updated Exocet. Though there is an other system that is being tested.
> 
> Rafale's are not going to come because if they do come it would be the last nail in the coffin for "MADE IN INDIA" policy. India would be going for LCA at all cost with or without the FOC.
> 
> The time is of an essence for USA to offer the F-35's to India with a production line. Chances are that this is highly likely. This aircraft is going to solve the IAF and IN problems and would also allow USA to show China that if they try to arm Pakistan so they can arm India.
> 
> If you are considering the possibility of USA giving India the option of firing Nuclear missiles then that would come from Israel. Even if India is not given (hypothetically) still Su-30 MKI's can do the job in a high low mix with the F-35's.
> 
> USA would like to have India in their pockets because that would allow them to deny Asian domination. They would single handedly tell China and Russia that they are still a world power and they shall remain.



This is all based on gut feeling as of now. I agree that US arming India to challenge China is plausible, highly likely to be true but saying that all this will end the future of Rafale in IAF is not right. Indian were not stupid to induct this in such small number. What is the role of 36 Rafales specially considering the very fact that Su-30 MKI do the job very well. Specially if the future of IAF lies with F-35.

As for US support, personally i feel that it will initially come in form of support for LCA. The engine we have already seen, next may be some weapon system, radar, EW suites? not to hurt Indians but HAL have really let them down and IAF may end up with Local LCA with maximum imported components. F-35 will take some time.

As for the French deal, as mentioned, Rafale deal still have ample life left, there still is a large Mirage Fleet with good business prospects and plenty of other things. We cannot ignore the fact that Indians are spending big currently and it will be difficult for Pakistan to offer a better market to the Europeans.

*As for Exocet, any idea about the numbers PN currently possess?*


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> European system, will be difficult to get, expensive to acquire, sanction prone, with French dealing with Indian on some mega deals i see this very unlikely to happen. What do you think?
> Also by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?


Turkish Meltem systems for the ATR's..

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## kaku1

Arsalan said:


> Again, by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?
> 
> AS for the Indian French deals, you cannot count the rafale deal as a total lost case. They still are going for planes from France, ave a large Mirage fleet and the Rafale, as i said is not a totally lost case. It is very likely that with LCA FOC delayed further IAF will go for more Rafales. Do not take the statement of that DM that seriously, that is they same stupid person who openly admitted Indian sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan! Also the very next day there was another statement by him claiming that IAF have option of getting more Rafale and may exercise that. So if by LATEST INFO you think that every thing is finalized now and everyone have played there hand and the table is stacked in our favor, unfortunately that is not the case.



Dont call him idiot, he is alumni of IIT Bombay.

And in last 6 month all the decision he made as a Raksha Mantri, all were logical, and not a single one was politically influenced, for vote bank he can go with MMRCA and further embolden Make in Inda, but logics say no, so he scrapped.

But yes, as a politician, he is little bit idiot.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> India would be going for LCA at all cost with or without the FOC.
> 
> .



Let be clear, without FoC, IAF not going to procure the aircraft. Never did this in past, not it going to do in future.

But still Mk.1 definitely end up in 150-160 number in IAF .

Mig-27 going to retire, needed some aircraft to replace this as CAS. And even there is requirement of 70-80 for LIFT.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> As for Exocet, any idea about the numbers PN currently possess?


No idea...



Arsalan said:


> As for US support, personally i feel that it will initially come in form of support for LCA. The engine we have already seen, next may be some weapon system, radar, EW suites? not to hurt Indians but HAL have really let them down and IAF may end up with Local LCA with maximum imported components. F-35 will take some time.



The only support USA would be giving in this regards is Engines. The rest would come from Israel. 



kaku1 said:


> Let be clear, without FoC, IAF not going to procure the aircraft. Never did this in past, not it going to do in future.
> 
> But still Mk.1 definitely end up in 150-160 number in IAF .
> 
> Mig-27 going to retire, needed some aircraft to replace this as CAS. And even there is requirement of 70-80 for LIFT.


Yes I agree... 
The LIFT capability can be done with the MK-1 but those would not end in IAF fighter squadron. MK-2 would be procured or the Naval variant.


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## Arsalan

kaku1 said:


> Dont call him idiot, he is alumni of IIT Bombay.
> 
> And in last 6 month all the decision he made as a Raksha Mantri, all were logical, and not a single one was politically influenced, for vote bank he can go with MMRCA and further embolden Make in Inda, but logics say no, so he scrapped.
> 
> *But yes, as a politician, he is little bit idiot.*
> .



Well i am not aware of his performance as your RAKSHA MANTRI but if he is doing good for you that that is enough for you to defend him. However, as you yourself admit, this particular statement that we are debating on was quite a stupid act. No harm in admitting that we both have our share of such big mouthed politicians

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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> No idea...
> 
> 
> 
> The only support USA would be giving in this regards is Engines. The rest would come from Israel.
> 
> 
> Yes I agree...
> The LIFT capability can be done with the MK-1 but those would not end in IAF fighter squadron. MK-2 would be procured or the Naval variant.



Have sufficient numbers but need upgrades


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## Super Falcon

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> YES. French system is the updated Exocet. Though there is an other system that is being tested.
> 
> Rafale's are not going to come because if they do come it would be the last nail in the coffin for "MADE IN INDIA" policy. India would be going for LCA at all cost with or without the FOC.
> 
> The time is of an essence for USA to offer the F-35's to India with a production line. Chances are that this is highly likely. This aircraft is going to solve the IAF and IN problems and would also allow USA to show China that if they try to arm Pakistan so they can arm India.
> 
> If you are considering the possibility of USA giving India the option of firing Nuclear missiles then that would come from Israel. Even if India is not given (hypothetically) still Su-30 MKI's can do the job in a high low mix with the F-35's.
> 
> USA would like to have India in their pockets because that would allow them to deny Asian domination. They would single handedly tell China and Russia that they are still a world power and they shall remain.


So it means india will become dog role when said to bark will bark when put foot on its tail will stop barking very good


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## Inception-06

What is now the status of the Pakistani ATR- are they upgraded and in service ? Or just parked in hangars ?

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## Viking 63

WE NEED ATR72s. no more P3,


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## DANGER-ZONE

*US Cost Guard Style paint scheme of old PMSA Fokker. *







*Torpedo Away.*

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Super Falcon said:


> So it means india will become dog role when said to bark will bark when put foot on its tail will stop barking very good


Do you still consider it is not doing so?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> What is now the status of the Pakistani ATR- are they upgraded and in service ? Or just parked in hangars ?



No being used for transport.

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## Arsalan

Viking 63 said:


> WE NEED ATR72s. no more P3,


ATR72 is the plane, what systems you want it to be carrying for anti ship and anti submarine roles? what Sonars and other system??


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> ATR72 is the plane, what systems you want it to be carrying for anti ship and anti submarine roles? what Sonars and other system??



The plan is / was to fit the Turkish Meltem system but there seems to be some delay. 
However last nite some high Turkish officials arrived in karachi and were received by naval officials. I was at karachi airport.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> The plan is / was to fit the Turkish Meltem system but there seems to be some delay.
> However last nite some high Turkish officials arrived in Karachi and were received by naval officials. I was at Karachi airport.


That is from *Thales *right?
*Thales AMASCOS maritime patrol mission system* , AMASCOS with an array of sensors that include a surveillance turret,* Thales’ Ocean Master search radar*, an ESM radar/transmitter locator, a Magnetic Anomaly Detector to find submarines, and transmissions from launched sonobuoys. 
Weapons include lightweight torpedoes, and Turkey will be using *Raytheon’s* new Mk54.

Will it be a suitable solution/replacement or even future induction considering everything coming from Thales and Raytheon's, What about $$$ and other problems we may well face with western systems. We are using P3C, these are serving us well, so better induct more platforms or if you need to change to a new one, go for something less risky. Replacing P3C with another western system wont be really ideal i guess. 

Lets see how things progress from that Turkish officials visit.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> The plan is / was to fit the Turkish Meltem system but there seems to be some delay.
> However last nite some high Turkish officials arrived in karachi and were received by naval officials. I was at karachi airport.


Sir, any news of the 3 new ATR-72's and the up-gradation of the existing fleet.

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## Viking 63

Arsalan said:


> ATR72 is the plane, what systems you want it to be carrying for anti ship and anti submarine roles? what Sonars and other system??


Not sure what systems we want to install on ATRs, but I have one thing very clear in my mind we need to get rid off all American systems in our inventory......... Period !!!!


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## Reddawn

Fatman is there an intention to expand the ATR fleet? Right now we have 7 P3s; 3 ATRs; Fokkers ?

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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, any news of the 3 new ATR-72's and the up-gradation of the existing fleet.



Not so far

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## CHI RULES

Arsalan said:


> Again, by "so that PN can continue with the French systems" are you referring to Exocet missiles?
> 
> AS for the Indian French deals, you cannot count the rafale deal as a total lost case. They still are going for planes from France, ave a large Mirage fleet and the Rafale, as i said is not a totally lost case. It is very likely that with LCA FOC delayed further IAF will go for more Rafales. Do not take the statement of that DM that seriously, that is they same stupid person who openly admitted Indian sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan! Also the very next day there was another statement by him claiming that IAF have option of getting more Rafale and may exercise that. So if by LATEST INFO you think that every thing is finalized now and everyone have played there hand and the table is stacked in our favor, unfortunately that is not the case.


Pak has hot Augosta submarines from French same can be done in case of Avionics as rumors are there that Pak may get some Avionics/engines from French for JF17. If Pak can arrange funds they may get access to French techs.


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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> Pak has hot Augosta submarines from French same can be done in case of Avionics as rumors are there that Pak may get some Avionics/engines from French for JF17. If Pak can arrange funds they may get access to French techs.



Closed case.

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## Arsalan

CHI RULES said:


> Pak has hot Augosta submarines from French same can be done in case of Avionics as rumors are there that Pak may get some Avionics/engines from French for JF17. If Pak can arrange funds they may get access to French techs.


That is history my friend. No life left in that particular project.


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## Super Falcon

What replacement of seakings do pn has they are almost end to their life. I hope pn choose something new. Like kamov


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## CHI RULES

PN should go for Chinese Z18 F naval version perhaps may be used for multi functions.



Arsalan said:


> That is history my friend. No life left in that particular project.


My friend never say no, every thing is possible in today's world based on economic benefits not based on ethics. If Pak deal proves to be beneficial for French they will not hesitate to provide anything just like Russia. 
(Even Gen Raheel has reached Russia for three days visit to get something it may not be just for picnic or to strengthen ties he is there to get something. He is a man of deeds not words. Same way PAF should renew their contacts with French along with high level Govt officials and they may get they want)


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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> PN should go for Chinese Z18 F naval version perhaps may be used for multi functions.
> 
> 
> My friend never say no, every thing is possible in today's world based on economic benefits not based on ethics. If Pak deal proves to be beneficial for French they will not hesitate to provide anything just like Russia.
> (Even Gen Raheel has reached Russia for three days visit to get something it may not be just for picnic or to strengthen ties he is there to get something. He is a man of deeds not words. Same way PAF should renew their contacts with French along with high level Govt officials and they may get they want)



One should be optimistic but realistic also.

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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> What replacement of seakings do pn has they are almost end to their life. I hope pn choose something new. Like kamov



SKs are being upgraded so no new ASW/SAR helos planned.

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## CHI RULES

Ur optimism can be realized by strong future planning. Pak only lacks long term future planing and efficient execution.
So I am afraid Fatman Sir that I am still optimistic.
There are many things already happened in defense field which if some one claims now may look to be optimistic till that time at which we get clear proof. 
Perhaps in near future u may get some surprises.

With future increase in surface vessels we shall automatically require multipurpose helis with better performance just like Z18 F .


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## Super Falcon

Yaaar i dont think so sea king have any upgrade left to be done even if it it cannot match opponenet systems technology so better of atleast buy new airframe of seaking also now almost end better to replace 30 year old workhorse


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## Rashid Mahmood

The only replacement which can match the Seakings are either very expensive or not available. 

Merlins, Sea Hawks are the only two helicopters which can replace the Sea King's, but we can't afford the Merlins and Sea Hawks aren't available. 

Presently the upgrades on these airframes can keep them operational for another decade.

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## mingle

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The only replacement which can match the Seakings are either very expensive or not available.
> 
> Merlins, Sea Hawks are the only two helicopters which can replace the Sea King's, but we can't afford the Merlins and Sea Hawks aren't available.
> 
> Presently the upgrades on these airframes can keep them operational for another decade.


Royal Canadian Navy replaced sea kings with CH- 148 cyclone not long ago .


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## Rashid Mahmood

mingle said:


> Royal Canadian Navy replaced sea kings with CH- 148 cyclone not long ago .



Yea, but they flew the Sea Kings for more than 50 years.
Cyclone's are yet to fully replace the Sea Kings.

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## mingle

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yea, but they flew the Sea Kings for more than 50 years.
> Cyclone's are yet to fully replace the Sea Kings.
> 
> View attachment 231813


Yeh I agree with u sea kings use call Here flying coffins But as U flew them U know the best .


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## Rashid Mahmood

mingle said:


> Yeh I agree with u sea kings use call Here flying coffins But as U flew them U know the best .



They have never been called flying coffins.
More than 500 built in different variants all over the world.

In my opinion it is the safest twin engine helicopter of it's time.

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## CHI RULES

mingle said:


> Yeh I agree with u sea kings use call Here flying coffins But as U flew them U know the best .


perhaps you have mingled Mig21 with sea kings.


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## mingle

CHI RULES said:


> perhaps you have mingled Mig21 with sea kings.


No no chi I am canadian been living here very long time that what canadians used to call them due to theior age .


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## Humble Analyst

CHI RULES said:


> PN should go for Chinese Z18 F naval version perhaps may be used for multi functions.
> 
> 
> My friend never say no, every thing is possible in today's world based on economic benefits not based on ethics. If Pak deal proves to be beneficial for French they will not hesitate to provide anything just like Russia.
> (Even Gen Raheel has reached Russia for three days visit to get something it may not be just for picnic or to strengthen ties he is there to get something. He is a man of deeds not words. Same way PAF should renew their contacts with French along with high level Govt officials and they may get they want)


French will concentrate on sales to India thy will not annoy India for sometime to come.


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## SBD-3

This plane is continuously buzzing the neighborhood. Substituting P3Cs and C-130s. Looks like Y-7

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## Arsalan

SBD-3 said:


> This plane is continuously buzzing the neighborhood. Substituting P3Cs and C-130s. Looks like Y-7
> View attachment 232619
> View attachment 232620



That looks interesting. However by the pictures you shared, in the first one it clearly show as having two engines but in second one there is some confusion as we can see four marks.




now the Y-7 do not have it. Also it have a swept tail wing. But the way the engines are set on the wings in first pic, the way half of them is shown behind the wing as well is typical of Y-7 (that is not the case in Y-8) It is totally lost to me what this plane could be. Hope its not one of those Fokkers  the design looks EXACTLY like that.

@fatman17 any insight sir?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> That looks interesting. However by the pictures you shared, in the first one it clearly show as having two engines but in second one there is some confusion as we can see four marks.
> View attachment 232633
> 
> now the Y-7 do not have it. Also it have a swept tail wing. But the way the engines are set on the wings in first pic, the way half of them is shown behind the wing as well is typical of Y-7 (that is not the case in Y-8) It is totally lost to me what this plane could be. Hope its not one of those Fokkers  the design looks EXACTLY like that.
> 
> @fatman17 any insight sir?


It is not a Chinese aircraft but F-27's.

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It is not a Chinese aircraft but F-27's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 232637
> View attachment 232638


WEll that is the Fokker i mentioned, it looks exactly the same 


Arsalan said:


> Hope its not one of those Fokkers  the design looks EXACTLY like that.[







The design perfectly fits the bill, tapered wings, two engines and two fuel tanks explaining the four marks in the picture, engine body extending on both side of wing as in picture, the same tail wing and all other features.

However the thing "what the heck is that plane doing flying there" these were retired and replaced as far as i remember.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> WEll that is the Fokker i mentioned, it looks exactly the same
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The design perfectly fits the bill, tapered wings, two engines and two fuel tanks explaining the four marks in the picture, engine body extending on both side of wing as in picture, the same tail wing and all other features.
> 
> However the thing "what the heck is that plane doing flying there" these were retired and replaced as far as i remember.



Not all F27's have been replaced. I do see some taking off and landing.

The ones that were replaced by ATR-72's were the ones used as transports. Hence if you may recall there was a new requirement of PN to buy 3 more ATR-72 and to upgrade the old ones costing about $300mil.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Arsalan said:


> However the thing "what the heck is that plane doing flying there" *these were retired and replaced as far as i remember*.



Retired from PIA, PAF / PN VIP transportation but still active Maritime Patrol Activities ... These Fokker are recently upgraded with FLIR and other advance sensor systems.

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Not all F27's have been replaced. I do see some taking off and landing.
> 
> The ones that were replaced by ATR-72's were the ones used as transports. Hence if you may recall there was a new requirement of PN to buy 3 more ATR-72 and to upgrade the old ones costing about $700mil.





DANGER-ZONE said:


> Retired from PIA, PAF / PN VIP transportation but still active Maritime Patrol Activities ... These Fokker are recently upgraded with FLIR and other advance sensor systems.



I know about ONE that was upgraded back i 2008 but after that there were reports that they are being replaced by ATR-72. As you said, may be all were not phased out. 

So then it surely is a F-27 Fokker and not Y-7.


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## SBD-3

Arsalan said:


> That looks interesting. However by the pictures you shared, in the first one it clearly show as having two engines but in second one there is some confusion as we can see four marks.
> View attachment 232633
> 
> now the Y-7 do not have it. Also it have a swept tail wing. But the way the engines are set on the wings in first pic, the way half of them is shown behind the wing as well is typical of Y-7 (that is not the case in Y-8) It is totally lost to me what this plane could be. Hope its not one of those Fokkers  the design looks EXACTLY like that.
> 
> @fatman17 any insight sir?


Yep that's F-27 alright


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Not all F27's have been replaced. I do see some taking off and landing.
> 
> The ones that were replaced by ATR-72's were the ones used as transports. Hence if you may recall there was a new requirement of PN to buy 3 more ATR-72 and to upgrade the old ones costing about $700mil.




$700 million. That can't be right. That is 80% of the navy's total budget.

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## niaz

fatman17 said:


> $700 million. That can't be right. That is 80% of the navy's total budget.



In my humble opinion the figure is probably $70-million. Additionally 'zero' an error.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> $700 million. That can't be right. That is 80% of the navy's total budget.





niaz said:


> In my humble opinion the figure is probably $70-million. Additionally 'zero' an error.



The figure of $700 mil was supposed to be $300 mil. 
It was a typing error. 

This amount of $300 million is not from the PN Budget but Special Funds to upgrade and buy new ATR-72's

"Additional Defence secretary Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan said that National Security Committee has approved in principle the project to acquire eight Chinese submarines. Financial negotiations for the same are in advance stages. He further said that Pakistan navy requirement of special funds of $ 294 million to upgrade/induct ATRs aircraft has been approved by Ministry of Defence in consultation with the finance division. Summary has been submitted for approval of National Security Committee."
Govt approves purchase of 8 Chinese submarines, six ATRs aircraft for Pakistan Navy

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## Rashid Mahmood

PN is still flying the Maritime Fokker F27.


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## Reddawn

Rashid why do you think the PN have opted to go for funding the ATRs rather than looking to replace the 2 zOrions lost at Mehran? Matter of priorities?

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## Donatello

Reddawn said:


> Rashid why do you think the PN have opted to go for funding the ATRs rather than looking to replace the 2 zOrions lost at Mehran? Matter of priorities?



2 of the P3Cs were in dilapidated state anyway, they were to be replaced and USA wasn't letting any more through.
So i guess PN is now building a smaller but secondary ATR fleet where the upgrades and air frames would be available from European firms.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Reddawn said:


> Rashid why do you think the PN have opted to go for funding the ATRs rather than looking to replace the 2 zOrions lost at Mehran? Matter of priorities?



ATRs were bought to replace the aging F-27s.
P-3Cs were part of the FMS and with no replacement option. 
PN would go for 2 more Orion's if available, but are not at present.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Rashid Mahmood said:


> ATRs were bought to replace the aging F-27s.
> P-3Cs were part of the FMS and with no replacement option.
> PN would go for 2 more Orion's if available, but are not at present.


There is also talk about getting the Chinese platform as replacement for P-3C's. Do not know if there is any progress...


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## Rashid Mahmood

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There is also talk about getting the Chinese platform as replacement for P-3C's. Do not know if there is any progress...



There is no discussion about a chinese aircraft as replacement of P3s.

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## Arsalan

But these ATR-72 that PN is currently using or is buying (the tree mentioned in above posts). non of these are in Anti submarine anti ship role like P-3C right?

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## Rashid Mahmood

Arsalan said:


> But these ATR-72 that PN is currently using or is buying (the tree mentioned in above posts). non of these are in Anti submarine anti ship role like P-3C right?



Not yet.
But plans are that 2 of them will be converted.

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## Arsalan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Not yet.
> But plans are that 2 of them will be converted.


Using ASW equipment of Turkish origin? 
Also the new role planes are planned to be armed with Torpedo and anti ship missiles?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> Using ASW equipment of Turkish origin?
> Also the new role planes are planned to be armed with Torpedo and anti ship missiles?



Remember posting this picture earlier.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Arsalan said:


> Using ASW equipment of Turkish origin?
> Also the new role planes are planned to be armed with Torpedo and anti ship missiles?



Not yet finalised.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China fields new maritime patrol and anti-submarine Y-8/Y-9 variant

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

28 June 2015

Seen when it first emerged in late 2011, the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare aircraft is now understood to have entered service with the PLAN's North Sea Fleet. Source: FYJS web page

The People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has introduced into service a new maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) variant of the Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation (SAC) Y-8/Y-9 medium transport aircraft, national media reported in late June.

An unspecified number of the four-engined Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) turboprops have now been inducted into the North Sea Fleet, which is responsible for the maritime domain that stretches from the North Korean border to Lianyungang (Jiangsu Province), some three-and-a-half years after the type was first revealed in late 2011.

No further details about the entry-into-service were revealed in the report, which appeared on a Chinese defence blogging site, except that the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) may be rolled out to the PLAN's East and South Sea Fleets at a later date.

First revealed in November 2011 via a series of images, the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) is the latest version of the Y-8/Y-9 platform that dates back to the mid-1970s. Details are sketchy, but IHS Jane's has previously reported that the Y-8GX6 (Y-8Q) features a redesigned wing and pressurised fuselage with composite structures (completed with the assistance of the Antonov Corporation), WJ-6C turboshaft engines, and six-bladed propellers.

As noted when the images of the aircraft first emerged, it is chiefly distinguishable from previous variants of the Y-8/Y-9 by its large chin-mounted sea-search radar, an electro-optical system aft of the nose wheel, and a weapons bay just in front of the main wheels. It also has a pronounced magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) boom and domed windows in the aft fuselage for observation.

Performance specifications have not been released, but an empty baseline Y-8 transport aircraft with maximum fuel has an estimated range of about 6,680 km (although a Y-8GX6 [Y-8Q] loaded down with mission kit without auxiliary fuel tanks will be less than this). For its ASW and maritime patrol missions, it will likely carry a range of already-fielded air-launched torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, and sonobuoys.

Other special mission versions of the Y-8/Y-9 platforms include the Y-8CB communications intelligence (COMINT) aircraft; the Y-8JB electronic intelligence (ELINT) aircraft; the Y-8G signals intelligence (SIGINT) aircraft; the Y-8H intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft; the Y-8J airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft; the Y-8X patrol aircraft; the Y-8W AEW&C aircraft; the Y-8T command and control (C2) aircraft; the Y-8XZ electronic warfare (EW) aircraft; the T0518 AEW&C aircraft; the ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft; and the KZ-800 ELINT aircraft.

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## niaz

It appears that Chinese are catching up fast. Is the aircraft at par with the latest versions of PC-3 Orions in capability?


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## fatman17

niaz said:


> It appears that Chinese are catching up fast. Is the aircraft at par with the latest versions of PC-3 Orions in capability?



I doubt it. Maybe equivalent to the standard P3A. P3C pup is a very good platform.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> I doubt it. Maybe equivalent to the standard P3A. P3C pup is a very good platform.


Well they may come up soon and can be great alternate for us


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## Inception-06

Fokker on Ormara

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## untitled

Sorry for the noob question

But what happened to the Orions that were supposed to be delivered with E2 Hawkeye radars ?


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## fatman17

persona_non_grata said:


> Sorry for the noob question
> 
> But what happened to the Orions that were supposed to be delivered with E2 Hawkeye radars ?



Project cancelled due to lack of FMS funds

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## fatman17

Misty landing


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## fatman17

Retd Atlantic


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

All of our three armed forces are always on reserved Federal Budget. Our defense budget doesn't include any development or up-gradation fund but all of it is consumed in Personnel salaries. 

Still all of the three are doing hard work, saving budget and are upgrading themselves in all three fields which is truly appreciable and amazing.

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## fatman17

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> All of our three armed forces are always on reserved Federal Budget. Our defense budget doesn't include any development or up-gradation fund but all of it is consumed in Personnel salaries.
> 
> Still all of the three are doing hard work, saving budget and are upgrading themselves in all three fields which is truly appreciable and amazing.



Prime example army paying for Jordanian F16s

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## black-hawk_101

Ulla said:


> Fokker on Ormara
> 
> View attachment 233862


PN Fookers are good and they can be given off to Pakistan Coast Guards with upgrades.

But I think like Sindh Rangers, ASF Sindh and Pakistan Coast Guards should be given off to Sindh to spend some budget on their own rather than putting pressure on Army which is still doing a lot in Western Border. Though PN and MSA are already there with Pak Marines coming too.

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## Rashid Mahmood

black-hawk_101 said:


> PN Fookers are good and they can be given off to Pakistan Coast Guards with upgrades.
> 
> But I think like Sindh Rangers, ASF Sindh and Pakistan Coast Guards should be given off to Sindh to spend some budget on their own rather than putting pressure on Army which is still doing a lot in Western Border. Though PN and MSA are already there with Pak Marines coming too.



I wonder what you eat my friend, you really have a weird imagination.

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## black-hawk_101

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I wonder what you eat my friend, you really have a weird imagination.


I mean to say that the Burden on Army is too much.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> I mean to say that the Burden on Army is too much.


Bhai...Pakistan Coast Guard dushman hai?


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

fatman17 said:


> Prime example army paying for Jordanian F16s




Others such as Barq and Buraq drone by Pakistan Army. PNS Aslat by Pakistan Navy and the most prime of all JF-17 Thunder production and induction by Pakistan Air Force.


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## black-hawk_101

@Ulla It would be better if Pakistan Coast Guard were given about 10 P-3Cs the same class as of PN. So, that in a war like scenario it can be used for attack purpose.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> @Ulla It would be better if Pakistan Coast Guard were given about 10 P-3Cs the same class as of PN. So, that in a war like scenario it can be used for attack purpose.


stop this bs and just look at what they actually require. they require fast attack craft and coastal defences

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## black-hawk_101

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> stop this bs and just look at what they actually require. they require fast attack craft and coastal defences


Why not give it to sindh n balovhistan govt. To invest n handle.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not give it to sindh n balovhistan govt. To invest n handle.


Can they handle the job they already have?


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## CHI RULES

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not give it to sindh n balovhistan govt. To invest n handle.


Just for fun purpose like u my suggestion is that army should be divided between provinces.


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## black-hawk_101

CHI RULES said:


> Just for fun purpose like u my suggestion is that army should be divided between provinces.


Why so?


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## fatman17

Stick to the thread topic Pl


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## fatman17

Apparently this aircraft packs a punch 

CHINA'S SUBMARINE HUNTING PLANE HAS A GIANT STINGER

THE Y-8Q JOINS THE MILE-HIGH SUB-HUNTING CLUB

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted February 24, 2015

The Chinese Naval Air Force gets its first operational Y-8Q heavy submarine hunting aircraft, after several years of flight testing. Painted in the standard PLANAF grey as opposed to the bright yellow primer seen on the pair of prototypes, the Y-8Q will likely show up all around East Asian waters after the Chinese flight crews learn how to fully exploit the limits of their new technology.

China is making serious efforts to correct its longstanding deficiency in aerial Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), introducing the Shaanxi Y-8Q (also designated as the Y-8GX6) aircraft painted in the blue-gray People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force (PLANAF) colors into operation. Previously, two Y-8Q prototypes had been flying for the past several years as part of a rigorous testing and training regimen. Until this month, China's only long-range aerial ASW capability came from three Harbin SH-5 seaplanes, which are nearly thirty years old.


The Y-8Q is designed to overcome Chinese ASW deficiencies that would cripple Chinese naval and civilian maritime activity in war. Some of its technology, at least on the surface, compares favorably to the U.S. P-3C Orion and P-8 Poseidon, and the Japanese P-1. The Y-8Q's most distinctive feature is its seven-meter-long Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) boom, which detects the magnetic signature of enemy submarines' metal hulls as the Y-8Q flies over them. Since MAD performance correlates to size, and it's seven-meter MAD boom is arguably the largest of its kind among airplanes, the PLAN would have a fine weapon for hunting otherwise stealthy submarines.

Y-8Q MAD


The Y-8Q's MAD boom on its tail is possibly the largest one mounted on an aircraft. The MAD is located on a boom in order to minimize electromagnetic interference from the Y-8Q itself, as the MAD detects any magnetic signatures from the metallic hulls of submarines lurking beneath the waves.

The Y-8Q also has an electro-optical turret forward of its bomb bay, which has day, night and infrared cameras to hunt the heat signatures and wakes of small watercraft, unmanned vehicles, and submarines (especially snorkels and periscopes). Right under cockpit is a large radome that, in addition to detecting submarine periscopes and wakes, can provide targeting data via satellite link to Chinese aircraft and warships when the Y-8Q finds enemy warships. The Y-8Q can also drop a hundred sonobuoys to provide real time sonar coverage of seawater expanses.

Y-8Q Packing


This photo gives us a good view of the Y-8Q's sensors, including the electro-optical turret (the white sphere forward of the bomb bays, similar in size and function to the one found on the Reaper drone), and the gray radome under the cockpit.

SQ-5 Sonobuoys


The Y-8Q can carry at least a hundred sonobuoys to provide blanket sensor coverage over a patch of ocean the size of Rhode Island. Other Chinese ASW platforms, like the Z-18 helicopter, also carry these sonobuoys.

The exact weapons capacity of the plane's internal bomb bay is not yet public, but one estimate is that the Y-8Q can carry probably over 10 tons. (By comparison, the Y-8 transport carries 20 tons of cargo.) Likely weapons loadouts include torpedoes like the Yu-7, sea mines and anti-ship missiles. The Y-8Q's large size and sensors could also allow it to be a command center for underwater unmanned vehicles (UUVs) like the Haiyan glider that would guard sectors of the ocean floor while the Y-8Q flies off elsewhere.

Haiyan UUV


The Haiyan UUV is an underwater glider, which can dive under 1,500m below the ocean surface, for up to 30 days. These 70kg drones (or future militarized versions) could be deployed enmass by Y-8Qs to provide a quick but long-term sensor solution, in areas like the Taiwan Straits, against enemy submarines during war time.

Since the Y-8Q is extending Anti-Access/Area Denial operations underwater, it is almost a given that China is going to invest in future ASW methods. In the future, the Y-8Q may be equipped with more exotic technologies like LIDAR (which uses laser beams to penetrate water to detect objects), hard kill anti-torpedo systems, acoustic signals intelligence and radiation detection (identify radiation from nuclear reactors) that Chinese scientists are already beginning to research.

ASW Attack Missile


This long range anti-submarine rocket is a proposal by Poly Technologies, a Chinese industrial conglomerate, that was first unveiled in September 2014 at a South African arms show. The ASW rocket uses a heavy WS series artillery rocket to fire a light torpedo (possibly a 500kg Yu-7) over 100 km away at enemy submarines that have been detected by a sensor network. A Y-8Q could act as a command center for Chinese UUVs and long range anti-submarine rockets to effectively deny large areas of water to enemy submarines without placing Chinese submarines or warships in danger.

The Y-8Q will become a significant part of China's emerging ASW operations. Its 5,000km range, wide sensor and weapon range and massive payload will exponentially increase Chinese security against enemy submarines off its coasts and into the East and South China Seas. When combined with other ASW assets, such as underwater drones, missile launched torpedoes and sonar towing Type 065 corvettes, it could make current and planned regional investment into submarines by China's neighbors more of a risky proposition.

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Depot level maintenance of Seakings


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## fatman17

The latest C-130 maritime patrol variant utilizes the Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Mission System, according to Lockheed Martin. The endurance of the SC-130J leads to more time to locate and engage targets, fewer sorties required to achieve needed coverage and the ability to do more with fewer aircraft, it added. Capabilities include infiltration/exfiltration, ASW sensors, ASW/Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW) weapons, endurance, and low-altitude operations.


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## niaz

Undoubtedly C-130 is a ubiquitous aeroplane with innumerable variants. The HC130- H /J versions are for long range surveillance, search & rescue, C-130-MP for maritime patrol and WC130- E/H/J, the hurricane Hunter for Weather Reconnaissance.

However, don’t think even the latest MP version is superior to PC-3C Orion.

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## Super Falcon

Impressed by chinese asw is it can be compared to posedion


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## Inception-06

black-hawk_101 said:


> @Ulla It would be better if Pakistan Coast Guard were given about 10 P-3Cs the same class as of PN. So, that in a war like scenario it can be used for attack purpose.



coast Guard is not a fighting arm but something like a water police ! Would you equipp Pakistani police with Anza Manpads ?

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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Impressed by chinese asw is it can be compared to posedion



Chinese claim it's comparable to P3C and Japanese P1.


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## fatman17

Japanese P1


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## Blue Marlin

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 236055


nice i never knew Pakistan had a MAD on it aircraft. did you know the US refused to install the Mad on indian p-8's


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## hkdas

blue marlin said:


> nice i never knew Pakistan had a MAD on it aircraft. did you know the US refused to install the Mad on indian p-8's


is the source for your clam is your wet dream in last night??

_The two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has which aren't fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD). _
_
Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment - SP’s Exculsive_


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## NIA

hkdas said:


> is the source for your clam is your wet dream in last night??
> 
> _The two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has which aren't fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD). _
> _
> Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment
> - SP’s Exculsive_


Hahaha you nailed him bro!!

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## Blue Marlin

hkdas said:


> is the source for your clam is your wet dream in last night??
> 
> _The two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has which aren't fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD).
> 
> Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment
> - SP’s Exculsive_


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## hkdas

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 237787


are you blind?? that link you provided is also saying that indian navy's P-8i have magnetic anomaly detector(MAD).


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## Blue Marlin

hkdas said:


> are you blind?? that link you provided is also saying that indian navy's P-8i have magnetic anomaly detector(MAD).



second sentence

" two major components not fitted on the P-8A, a Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)."

Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment - SP’s Exculsive

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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 237787


The extract you have quoted hope it is not Wiki... if Yes... then... This is not credible info...


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## hkdas

blue marlin said:


> second sentence
> 
> " two major components not fitted on the P-8A, a Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)."
> 
> Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment
> - SP’s Exculsive



now i understand why you said that..
P-8A is US navy variant. for indian navy it is P-8i(i-india). US navy(P-8A) excluded that MAD and APS-143 OceanEye aft radar to reduce the weight for incensing the service ceiling.
APS-143 OceanEye aft radar is now manufactured in india. 
Mahindra Telephonics pitches OceanEye radar for MRH - SP's Naval Forces



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The extract you have quoted hope it is not Wiki... if Yes... then... This is not credible info...


that wiki is also saying opposite to what he said. it looks like he don't fully understand what written in there.


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## Blue Marlin

hkdas said:


> now i understand why you said that..
> P-8A is US navy variant. for indian navy it is P-8i(i-india). US navy(P-8A) excluded that MAD and APS-143 OceanEye aft radar to reduce the weight for incensing the service ceiling.
> APS-143 OceanEye aft radar is now manufactured in india.
> Mahindra Telephonics pitches OceanEye radar for MRH - SP's Naval Forces
> 
> 
> that wiki is also saying opposite to what he said. it looks like he don't fully understand what written in there.


look at the link attached. wiki is wrong. the us denial the sale because the MAD tech is very sensitive and advanced. 
Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment - SP’s Exculsive my point is that the indian p-8 does not have a MAD


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## hkdas

blue marlin said:


> look at the link attached. wiki is wrong. the us denial the sale because the MAD tech is very sensitive and advanced.
> Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment
> - SP’s Exculsive my point is that the indian p-8 does not have a MAD



either you don't understand English or your are nuts. 
_ The two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has which aren't fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)._
_Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment - SP’s Exculsive_

"_ T__he two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has"- _this means two major components that are fitted on the P-8I
_"which aren't fitted on the P-8A are"- _ this means those equipment which are not fitted on P-8A(Us navy variant) are _Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)._

_PS:- aren't mean "are not" then that sentence can be expanded as "The two major components that the indian navy P-8I have but which they are not fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)._




_
The Navy's predecessor to the P-8A -- the Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion four-engine turboprop aircraft -- has a MAD sensor attached to the back that looks like a large stinger that protrudes backward from the plane's tail.

*The P-8A -- a maritime patrol version of the Boeing 737-800 single-aisle passenger jet -- was designed without the built-in MAD instrument largely because the P-8 is designed to operate primarily at high altitudes. The MAD sensor works best at low altitudes.*

To compensate for the lack of a built-in MAD instrument, the P-8 will use an unmanned drone equipped with the HAASW UTAS MAD sensor and algorithms
_
_BAE Systems to develop MAD ASW drone to help Navy P-8A find submarines from high altitudes _

_that means P-8A(US navy variant) don't have MAD. _

_sorry for asking... are thum sub pakistanis iski tharah fools hai kya??? some don't understand English, some cannot distinguish two different pics..!!!! are ye ho kya rahahai?? _

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## Blue Marlin

hkdas said:


> either you don't understand English or your are nuts.
> _ The two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has which aren't fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD).
> Indian Navy pleased with P–8I performance on first op deployment
> - SP’s Exculsive_
> 
> "_ T__he two major components that the Indian Navy P-8I has"- _this means two major components that are fitted on the P-8I
> _"which aren't fitted on the P-8A are"- _ this means those equipment which are not fitted on P-8A(Us navy variant) are _Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)._
> 
> _PS:- aren't mean "are not" then that sentence can be expanded as "The two major components that the indian navy P-8I have but which they are not fitted on the P-8A are Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Navy's predecessor to the P-8A -- the Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion four-engine turboprop aircraft -- has a MAD sensor attached to the back that looks like a large stinger that protrudes backward from the plane's tail._
> 
> _*The P-8A -- a maritime patrol version of the Boeing 737-800 single-aisle passenger jet -- was designed without the built-in MAD instrument largely because the P-8 is designed to operate primarily at high altitudes. The MAD sensor works best at low altitudes.*_
> 
> _To compensate for the lack of a built-in MAD instrument, the P-8 will use an unmanned drone equipped with the HAASW UTAS MAD sensor and algorithms_
> 
> _BAE Systems to develop MAD ASW drone to help Navy P-8A find submarines from high altitudes _
> 
> _that means P-8A(US navy variant) don't have MAD. _
> 
> _sorry for asking... are thum sub pakistanis iski tharah fools hai kya??? some don't understand English, some cannot distinguish two different pics..!!!! are ye ho kya rahahai?? _



yes i got it, but it does not have the same Mad as they have on the US variant, india has a different MAD to the US. 

what does this mean "_thum sub pakistanis iski tharah fools hai kya???_" "_ye ho kya rahahai?? _"
sorry for the confusion and sorry for the misunderstanding i thought you meant the p-8i has the same Mad as the P-8a, it doesn't i the p-8i does have a mad but i don't know which one though. again sorry for the confusion i am dyslexic so my wording is not the best.

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## fatman17

This is not a P8 thread.

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## Super Falcon

One question come to my mind E 2 hawkeye us navy uses for air survilance in sea can ig detect subs to as much to my knowledge it cannot.

And in past there were news hawkeye pak nave had ordered by us on P3 airframe did we got it and it only be used for air surveliance by navy

Why we stoped till Z 9 induction which was in 2006 we ordered sea kings are at verge of replacements and lynx we already retired our relations with russia is getting bery good xan we consider KA 52 naval version it is as good as NH 90 naval version


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> One question come to my mind E 2 hawkeye us navy uses for air survilance in sea can ig detect subs to as much to my knowledge it cannot.
> 
> And in past there were news hawkeye pak nave had ordered by us on P3 airframe did we got it and it only be used for air surveliance by navy
> 
> Why we stoped till Z 9 induction which was in 2006 we ordered sea kings are at verge of replacements and lynx we already retired our relations with russia is getting bery good xan we consider KA 52 naval version it is as good as NH 90 naval version



FMS was cancelled by PK due to lack of funds for Hawkeye 2000 on P3 airframe.

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## Super Falcon

fatman17 said:


> FMS was cancelled by PK due to lack of funds for Hawkeye 2000 on P3 airframe.


Now funds are in better shape why not order E 2 so we can get complete pic of p8 where it is flying prominently


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Now funds are in better shape why not order E 2 so we can get complete pic of p8 where it is flying prominently



It's not in the plans now.


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## Thorough Pro

PA didn't pay for the jets, realizing and appreciating the F-16's role in the on going war against terrorism, PA allocated it's funds towards PAF. Payment was done by GOP. 







fatman17 said:


> Prime example army paying for Jordanian F16s


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> PA didn't pay for the jets, realizing and appreciating the F-16's role in the on going war against terrorism, PA allocated it's funds towards PAF. Payment was done by GOP.



Same thing


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## Super Falcon

Than what things are in plan for navy future


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Than what things are in plan for navy future



Cutters 
Subs 
Supply ship 
Frigates 
MSA aircraft 
FaC 
Sub rebuild factory Ormara 
In the next 5 to 10 years


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## fatman17

JL600 China's amphibious aircraft under construction


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## Super Falcon

fatman17 said:


> Cutters
> Subs
> Supply ship
> Frigates
> MSA aircraft
> FaC
> Sub rebuild factory Ormara
> In the next 5 to 10 years


Thanks for kind can u name what exact class of PN looking out of above u mentioned


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Thanks for kind can u name what exact class of PN looking out of above u mentioned



Yar you are following regularly 
Cutter GR43 
Subs S20 
Frigates F22P1 
FaC Azmat class 
MSA ATR'S 
Supply tanker is from Turkey


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## Neptune

PN Pilots have visited the Naval Aviation Command HQ at NAS Cengiz Topel and flew Meltem III (ATR-72/600 MPA/ASW/ASuW) and Meltem II (CN-235 MPA/ASW) integrated aircraft themselves. Upon the request of Pakistani officials, Meltem III has been proposed to Pakistani Naval Air Arm by *TAI*.

Officially Confirmed.

@fatman17 @Horus @Rashid Mahmood @Dazzler @Abu Zolfiqar

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## Rashid Mahmood

Neptune said:


> PN Pilots have visited the Naval Aviation Command HQ at NAS Cengiz Topel and flew Meltem III (ATR-72/600 MPA/ASW/ASuW) and Meltem II (CN-235 MPA/ASW) integrated aircraft themselves. Upon the request of Pakistani officials, Meltem III has been proposed to Pakistani Naval Air Arm by *TAI*.
> 
> Officially Confirmed.
> 
> @fatman17 @Horus @Rashid Mahmood @Dazzler @Abu Zolfiqar



It certainly has been. PN is considering the option of Meltem III.

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## fatman17

Neptune said:


> PN Pilots have visited the Naval Aviation Command HQ at NAS Cengiz Topel and flew Meltem III (ATR-72/600 MPA/ASW/ASuW) and Meltem II (CN-235 MPA/ASW) integrated aircraft themselves. Upon the request of Pakistani officials, Meltem III has been proposed to Pakistani Naval Air Arm by *TAI*.
> 
> Officially Confirmed.
> 
> @fatman17 @Horus @Rashid Mahmood @Dazzler @Abu Zolfiqar



Good news. Has been under discussion for sometime now.


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## Blue Marlin

Neptune said:


> PN Pilots have visited the Naval Aviation Command HQ at NAS Cengiz Topel and flew Meltem III (ATR-72/600 MPA/ASW/ASuW) and Meltem II (CN-235 MPA/ASW) integrated aircraft themselves. Upon the request of Pakistani officials, Meltem III has been proposed to Pakistani Naval Air Arm by *TAI*.
> 
> Officially Confirmed.
> 
> @fatman17 @Horus @Rashid Mahmood @Dazzler @Abu Zolfiqar


source?


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## umairkhan4

Penguin said:


> If "20 years old stuff" is good enough for such navies as those of Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand and NATO-members like Germany, Greece, Norway, Spain, Portugal and the US, why would it not be good enough for PN? Heck, some countries operate A and B versions (Argentina, Brazil, Chile)


good point


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## Neptune

blue marlin said:


> source?



DZHVKOM, NAS Cengiz Topel.


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## rockstar08

fatman17 said:


> Yar you are following regularly
> Cutter GR43
> Subs S20
> *Frigates F22P1 *
> FaC Azmat class
> MSA ATR'S
> Supply tanker is from Turkey



Sir is it the Modified version of our F-22p's ? which is in rumors for sometime ?
can you shed some light on upgrades ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Neptune said:


> PN Pilots have visited the Naval Aviation Command HQ at NAS Cengiz Topel and flew Meltem III (ATR-72/600 MPA/ASW/ASuW) and Meltem II (CN-235 MPA/ASW) integrated aircraft themselves. Upon the request of Pakistani officials, Meltem III has been proposed to Pakistani Naval Air Arm by *TAI*.
> 
> Officially Confirmed.
> 
> @fatman17 @Horus @Rashid Mahmood @Dazzler @Abu Zolfiqar



Remember posting this pic before on the thread...


----------



## Penguin

Request Rejected





Request Rejected


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It certainly has been. PN is considering the option of Meltem III.


The deal is for 6 aircraft? 3 existing and 3 new.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Neptune said:


> DZHVKOM, NAS Cengiz Topel.


a website would be the best option as a source.


----------



## Neptune

blue marlin said:


> a website would be the best option as a source.



Not better than a informed naval officer regarding the issue


----------



## Blue Marlin

what you say makes sense as Pakistan is clearing 272 million for purchasing atr airframes for mpa and turkey has the same airframe. so its a possibility.
Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> what you say makes sense as Pakistan is clearing 272 million for purchasing atr airframes for mpa and turkey has the same airframe. so its a possibility.
> Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen


There is also option of getting other Turkish naval products...


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There is also option of getting other Turkish naval products...


a heard a rumour that Pakistan will buy the tai anka the upgraded combat variant for air strikes in fata. this is because its cheaper than jets. this is a good option as it can be used to patrol the eastern border and in kashmir. also as a short range mpa. turkey is literally giving you the tech all you have to do is sign on the dotted line and join them to develop it. Pakistan should learn to take good offers when they come and stop being so foolish. it would be stupid not to take the offer. even the t129, that annoyed me the most. sometimes i feel you are driving your self in to ruin.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

Turkish Meltem III, any pic is available..?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> a heard a rumour that Pakistan will buy the tai anka the upgraded combat variant for air strikes in fata. this is because its cheaper than jets. this is a good option as it can be used to patrol the eastern border and in kashmir. also as a short range mpa. turkey is literally giving you the tech all you have to do is sign on the dotted line and join them to develop it. Pakistan should learn to take good offers when they come and stop being so foolish. it would be stupid not to take the offer. even the t129, that annoyed me the most. sometimes i feel you are driving your self in to ruin.


Anka is being co produced...Rumours are of Hurkus, frigates and also there was one for the old u-boats (U209) can be coming to Pakistan...T129 was lost because of sanctions on Pakistan and then they being direct competitor to the A1-H1Z and Apache so you can imagine US would not have given the engine. 

The A1-H1Z also came when China said it is going to supply Z-10 and Russia's interest in Mi-35M, or the Mi-28 super hind updated by South Africa. With the deal of Iran signed this opens up the Iranian made Toofan 2 or its upgrade for Pakistan as well.


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Anka is being co produced...Rumours are of Hurkus, frigates and also there was one for the old u-boats (U209) can be coming to Pakistan...T129 was lost because of sanctions on Pakistan and then they being direct competitor to the A1-H1Z and Apache so you can imagine US would not have given the engine.
> 
> The A1-H1Z also came when China said it is going to supply Z-10 and Russia's interest in Mi-35M, or the Mi-28 super hind updated by South Africa. With the deal of Iran signed this opens up the Iranian made Toofan 2 or its upgrade for Pakistan as well.


the us could have blocked such a deal if it would have taken place. and i do feel the US gave a deal Pakistan could not refuse. to imagine you need a gun ship and now countries are trying to sell them to Pakistan. the Pakistan air force is keeping an eye on the hurkus but its to early in development to even bother thinking about it. 

with frigates. not a chance the type 54 Chinese frigate is cheaper and i cant imagine the US selling vls missiles to Pakistan even Europe. Chinese/ Russian vls missiles on a turkish ship does not make sense at all. Pakistan cant afford it. china is your go to place for large naval ships


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> and i do feel the US gave a deal Pakistan could not refuse. to imagine you need a gun ship and now countries are trying to sell them to Pakistan



The actual demand was for more then what have been approved...They did offer the older versions but that was refused by Pakistan.

The rest is rumour so it can not be taken seriously. F-22P would be improved may be some Turkish weapons would be added but nothing bigger than that...


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The actual demand was for more then what have been approved...They did offer the older versions but that was refused by Pakistan.
> 
> The rest is rumour so it can not be taken seriously. F-22P would be improved may be some Turkish weapons would be added but nothing bigger than that...


i cant comment in the engine debate as you would know to much.

the f22p frigate, may be replaced by frigates similar to the c28a that Algeria purchased from china. becaus the c28a and the f22p are very similar. do you know if its true. did algeria train some of its naval staff on the f22p for its upcoming deliveries of the c28a. as both ship share similar features. i prefer to see the c28a as a f22p in a stealth coat. except for the Thales radar.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> i cant comment in the engine debate as you would know to much.
> 
> the f22p frigate, may be replaced by frigates similar to the c28a that Algeria purchased from china. becaus the c28a and the f22p are very similar. do you know if its true. did algeria train some of its naval staff on the f22p for its upcoming deliveries of the c28a. as both ship share similar features. i prefer to see the c28a as a f22p in a stealth coat. except for the Thales radar.
> View attachment 239337
> 
> View attachment 239336


Do not think it is going to be C28A because Pakistan Naval requirement is of 3200 to 3600 ton displacement. So the new F22P would have to increase its size and accommodate surface to air weapons but be smaller and less expensive then a destroyer.

Not sure if Algeria Naval personel were trained here may be Sir @Arsalan , @fatman17 , @Rashid Mahmood can answer.



blue marlin said:


> Algeria purchased from china



Chinese sources suggest it is an evolution of Pakistan's F-22P on the basis that Algerian naval teams visited Pakistan to see that frigate's operations first-hand. The C28A also appears to borrow design elements from the Type 054A frigate of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy.

taken from this article...

First Algerian C28A corvette launched in China - IHS Jane's 360


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do not think it is going to be C28A because Pakistan Naval requirement is of 3200 to 3600 ton displacement. So what ever the new F22P would have to increase its size and accommodate surface to air weapons but be smaller and less expensive then a destroyer.
> 
> Not sure if Algeria Naval personel were trained here may be Sir @Arsalan , @fatman17 , @Rashid Mahmood can answer.


not a c28a but a variant of the c28a. can you show me a new Chinese vessels of 3200-3600 displacement? i would think if such developments are true and Pakistan is attempting to procure such vessels than it would imagine a heavily modified c28a with a vls with Russian short to medium range missiles, as there are reports of Pakistan being interested in short to medium range sams.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do not think it is going to be C28A because Pakistan Naval requirement is of 3200 to 3600 ton displacement. So the new F22P would have to increase its size and accommodate surface to air weapons but be smaller and less expensive then a destroyer.
> 
> Not sure if Algeria Naval personel were trained here may be Sir @Arsalan , @fatman17 , @Rashid Mahmood can answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese sources suggest it is an evolution of Pakistan's F-22P on the basis that Algerian naval teams visited Pakistan to see that frigate's operations first-hand. The C28A also appears to borrow design elements from the Type 054A frigate of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy.
> 
> taken from this article...
> 
> First Algerian C28A corvette launched in China - IHS Jane's 360


yes ive seen the article

i would sugest save enough to procure at least 6 type 54a frigates.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> 6 type 54a frigates.



Operating cost is high...


----------



## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Anka is being co produced...Rumours are of Hurkus, frigates and also there was one for the old u-boats (U209) can be coming to Pakistan...T129 was lost because of sanctions on Pakistan and then they being direct competitor to the A1-H1Z and Apache so you can imagine US would not have given the engine.
> 
> The A1-H1Z also came when China said it is going to supply Z-10 and Russia's interest in Mi-35M, or the Mi-28 super hind updated by South Africa. With the deal of Iran signed this opens up the Iranian made Toofan 2 or its upgrade for Pakistan as well.



Toofan 2 Pl we are not that desperate yet

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## fatman17

The biggest issue with the F22P in our inventory was safety related. There were reports of electrical fires on board these frigates. This is one area where navy is looking for upgrade.


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## fatman17

Under monsoon skies


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## Neptune

Cool_Soldier said:


> Turkish Meltem III, any pic is available..?
> 
> View attachment 239330

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Neptune said:


>


CASA has more range?


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Operating cost is high...


thats why i said save up for them. pakistan should be a country that should already have this ship.


ACE OF THE AIR said:


> CASA has more range?


the atr 72 is a larger airframe. 
i can't work out the range as the c295 range is calculated on payload as the atr is most probably done by take of weight.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> thats why i said save up for them. pakistan should be a country that should already have this ship.
> 
> the atr 72 is a larger airframe.
> i can't work out the range as the c295 range is calculated on payload as the atr is most probably done by take of weight.
> View attachment 239539
> 
> View attachment 239541


Bro, 
I know this but I wanted to know how the Turkish are using them ATR's and CASA's together. 
PN already operates the P3c's which give it enough range to cover the entire region. ATR's are to replace the older F-27's.


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bro,
> I know this but I wanted to know how the Turkish are using them ATR's and CASA's together.
> PN already operates the P3c's which give it enough range to cover the entire region. ATR's are to replace the older F-27's.


i would say in small numbers , but they can still operate them in large numbers as they have a very large coast . its navy has to contend with two oceans. where as Pakistan does quiet a few need a lot of them, about 12 to replace the f27 and Breguet Atlantic you already have 2 of them, and money is being cleared for two more atr's. so a 8 more would do just fine.

i would look at buying y-8q submarine hunters. as they are simply really the best option but it wont be cheap.





now that i look at the inventory you can do with some replacements such as, replacing the sea kings helicopters and the Aérospatiale Alouette III SA-319B helicopters as well.


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## Neptune

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> CASA has more range?



Yes. CN-235 has more. Like 2,7 times more than that of ATR-72/600

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## fatman17

As someone said the 2 platforms will be used in high lo configuration. High for the P3C and lo for the ATR. Coastal defence is getting important now. P3C for long range sub hunting will be adequate.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Replacement of a platform is not easy at all.

Some members on this forum talk about replacement of subs, ships, aircraft's & helicopters like it's replacing a car.
It takes years of planning, finances, availability, developing new tactics, crew training's, service support setup, SOPs...etc.

No two platforms are the same, so they require different SOPs, and new tactics have to be made.

There are specialist personnel, who keep studying and planning such requirements all year round.

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## Amaa'n

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Replacement of a platform is not easy at all.
> 
> Some members on this forum talk about replacement of subs, ships, aircraft's & helicopters like it's replacing a car.
> It takes years of planning, finances, availability, *developing new tactics, crew training's, service support setup, SOPs*...etc.
> 
> No two platforms are the same, so they require different SOPs, and new tactics have to be made.
> 
> There are specialist personnel, who keep studying and planning such requirements all year round.


this is what many of our Pakistani members don't like to consider, even if it is merely a Battle Rifle, muscle memory, training, handling, SOPs are very important and require resources

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Anka is being co produced...
> .


co produced?  By PAC and TAI??? PLEASE Stop misleading. 



> Rumours are of Hurkus, frigates and also there was one for the old u-boats (U209) can be coming to Pakistan...T129 was lost because of sanctions on Pakistan and then they being direct competitor to the A1-H1Z and Apache so you can imagine US would not have given the engine.


Yes there was a reported interest in Turkish frigates and MUCH MORE interest and even official confirmation of this interest in the Milgem Corvettes but even that was never finalized of proceeded with let alone the frigate projects. U-209 was a hoax, not even was a proper rumor in fact. There was absolutely no truth in that. Also please note that there are no sanctions on Pakistan regarding T-129. The T-129 uses American/European components and that made it sanction prone and not very reliable. You are right that American wont have liked giving the engines when the product was to compete there own in export. That do not means there were some sanctions on Pakistan.



> The A1-H1Z also came when China said it is going to supply Z-10 and Russia's interest in Mi-35M, or the Mi-28 super hind updated by South Africa. With the deal of Iran signed this opens up the Iranian made Toofan 2 or its upgrade for Pakistan as well


Absolutely right about the Cobra offer considering with the Z-10 and Russian options, the timing was so perfect to be a mere coincidence. Not so sure about the toofan, with sanctions lifted, perhaps Iranians wont be using them themselves.

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## fatman17

Seaking employed in flood relief ops


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## fatman17

Navy Alouette parked on a US aircraft carrier in the Arabian Sea

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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Seaking employed in flood relief ops


how old are those birds?


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## fatman17

blue marlin said:


> how old are those birds?



From this year. 4000 people have been rescued by navy so far from upper Sindh - khairpur area.

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## MastanKhan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Replacement of a platform is not easy at all.
> 
> Some members on this forum talk about replacement of subs, ships, aircraft's & helicopters like it's replacing a car.
> It takes years of planning, finances, availability, developing new tactics, crew training's, service support setup, SOPs...etc.
> 
> No two platforms are the same, so they require different SOPs, and new tactics have to be made.
> 
> There are specialist personnel, who keep studying and planning such requirements all year round.




Hi,

It takes about 8 to 10 years from day one of planning---testing---ordering----production and manufacturing---delivery and then the most important of all---training and integration. Sometimes longer.

For that very reason---major weapons purchases must never be stopped once the go ahead is given and the deal signed----.


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> From this year. 4000 people have been rescued by navy so far from upper Sindh - khairpur area.


wow so they earned they keep alright. good job


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Navy Alouette parked on a US aircraft carrier in the Arabian Sea


When was this ?


----------



## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> When was this ?



A few years back


----------



## fatman17

2 ship P3C formation

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## fatman17

P3C in dark grey scheme

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17

Squadron patches


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## fatman17

Seaking in relief ops

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## fatman17

just a nice pic.

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Inception-06

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 259391




What Type of weapons and role have this air craft ?


----------



## Viper 94

what happened to the deal regarding p-3 with hawkeye radar?
i suppose it was canceled


----------



## fatman17

Ulla said:


> What Type of weapons and role have this air craft ?



MSA

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## Cool_Soldier

Nice pictures
Navy was ignored for a long time but now special attention is being given towards its update programme. Many changes need to be done yet.

Aviation needs new helicopters in various roles
New bigger ships are required with better air defence capabilites
Naval air wing needs to be update with fighter planes
After diesel electric submarines, Navy needs to focus towards Nuclear powered submarines

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## Imran Khan

this force need very badly upgrade too old machines in service


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## fatman17

Viper 94 said:


> what happened to the deal regarding p-3 with hawkeye radar?
> i suppose it was canceled
> 
> View attachment 259420



yep the upgrade was costing nearly 1 bill $ along with the Hawkeye radar.


----------



## black-hawk_101

Will China going to give PNAF some 4 KE-8 Block-II and 4 Y-8 AEW&Cs for Makran coast?


----------



## razgriz19

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will China going to give PNAF some 4 KE-8 Block-II and 4 Y-8 AEW&Cs for Makran coast?



nah man they're going to give us 10 squadrons of J-20 
that should be enough, don't you think?

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## Neptune

Ulla said:


> What Type of weapons and role have this air craft ?



The one in photo is a maritime utility aircraft. Primarily supporting naval logistics.

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## Viper 94

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will China going to give PNAF some 4 KE-8 Block-II and 4 Y-8 AEW&Cs for Makran coast?


no country just gives away such expensive equipment nor should we ask for free stuff 
we should improve our economy and the human potential so we can make these things in collaboration with other countries

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## black-hawk_101

Viper 94 said:


> no country just gives away such expensive equipment nor should we ask for free stuff
> we should improve our economy and the human potential so we can make these things in collaboration with other countries


I mean for Free as CPEC, also I don't think so that PAF is keen to operative Saab-2000 in any way. May be these going to be sold to KSA or Indonesia.



razgriz19 said:


> nah man they're going to give us 10 squadrons of J-20
> that should be enough, don't you think?


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## Viper 94

black-hawk_101 said:


> I mean for Free as CPEC, also I don't think so that PAF is keen to operative Saab-2000 in any way. May be these going to be sold to KSA or Indonesia.


CPEC is not free either 
i don't think you and many pakistanis understand what CPEC is 
also PAF operates 3 or so saab - 2000 erieye why in the world they will sell it to KSA or indonesia. KSA operates e-3 sentry awacs so they are not going to be interested anyways 
saab 2000 plays a vital role in PAF and it spent a lot of time and resources to acquire them


----------



## black-hawk_101

Viper 94 said:


> CPEC is not free either
> i don't think you and many pakistanis understand what CPEC is
> also PAF operates 3 or so saab - 2000 erieye why in the world they will sell it to KSA or indonesia. KSA operates e-3 sentry awacs so they are not going to be interested anyways
> saab 2000 plays a vital role in PAF and it spent a lot of time and resources to acquire them


KSA has Saab-2000 AEW&Cs


----------



## fatman17

Navy SAR





Just a nice pic.

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 263378
> 
> Navy SAR
> 
> View attachment 263379
> 
> Just a nice pic.
> 
> View attachment 263380


I still think that PN should have a fleet of (I am only talking about the MPAs):
20 P-3Cs
05 P-3C AEW&Cs

Also, if possible then deploy the coming 14 F-16s Block-15 to Masroor for PNAF.

Or better to transfer the earlier 14 F-16s Block-15 + 14 F-16s Block-15 which are arriving to make a single or two strong squadrons.


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## Inception-06

black-hawk_101 said:


> I still think that PN should have a fleet of (I am only talking about the MPAs):
> 20 P-3Cs
> 05 P-3C AEW&Cs
> 
> Also, if possible then deploy the coming 14 F-16s Block-15 to Masroor for PNAF.
> 
> Or better to transfer the earlier 14 F-16s Block-15 + 14 F-16s Block-15 which are arriving to make a single or two strong squadrons.




You are loosing again your respect my friend !

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## Blue Marlin

when will pakistan replace the sea kings? how old are they?


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## Aamir Hussain

Bought them in mid to late seventies!


----------



## Thorough Pro

Can I meet you ion person some time? just want to inspect the thing you have in your head.




black-hawk_101 said:


> I mean for Free as CPEC, also I don't think so that PAF is keen to operative Saab-2000 in any way. May be these going to be sold to KSA or Indonesia.

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## Inception-06

Thorough Pro said:


> Can I meet you ion person some time? just want to inspect the thing you have in your head.



haha lol may be he is a machine or a joke I dont know ! He is from mars ^^ Nishaaaaaann come out and show your true face, who are you ?

He must be under the age of 18, because in his age I was in the old PDf called ******************** and I did made the same post like him.... !


----------



## black-hawk_101

Ulla said:


> You are loosing again your respect my friend !



Not true it is just an assumption.

I wish that PN might gain a chance to acquire some nice helicopters from Muslim countries like used Puma ones to convert them for SEA role.


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## Aamir Hussain

Muslim countries?? Care to elaborate?

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## Bratva

Thorough Pro said:


> Can I meet you ion person some time? just want to inspect the thing you have in your head.

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## Thorough Pro

Please don't violate someone's privacy, don't share anyone's personal info on the net



Bratva said:


>

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## Inception-06

black-hawk_101 said:


> Not true it is just an assumption.
> 
> I wish that PN might gain a chance to acquire some nice helicopters from Muslim countries like used Puma ones to convert them for SEA role.




We did get used Puma Helicopters from "Muslim" countries....:"PAA has acquired some from UAE" !



Bratva said:


>



Nishan did not kinow that "Hassan" is a old men  he thought he had finde somone in his age (check Hassans picture 



Aamir Hussain said:


> Bought them in mid to late seventies!



some years ago they did get a body overhaul and a upgrade !

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## Aamir Hussain

@Ulla 

Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE? I don't remember that transaction taking place in 1977 -1979.

The Puma registry clearly shows with serial number for both production and allocation. From that info. it seems they were delivered to Pakistan after production!

Though UAE does use Puma and Super Puma for Naval use.

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## untitled

@hassan1 usually comes up with interesting archive images



Aamir Hussain said:


> Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE?



Don't we have the Romanian version of the Puma ?


----------



## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE? I don't remember that transaction taking place in 1977 -1979.
> 
> The Puma registry clearly shows with serial number for both production and allocation. From that info. it seems they were delivered to Pakistan after production!
> 
> Though UAE does use Puma and Super Puma for Naval use.



It's true were picked up for spares but then refurbished and put into service. It was in the early 2000s.

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## Inception-06

Aamir Hussain said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE? I don't remember that transaction taking place in 1977 -1979.
> 
> The Puma registry clearly shows with serial number for both production and allocation. From that info. it seems they were delivered to Pakistan after production!
> 
> Though UAE does use Puma and Super Puma for Naval use.




A selam Sir,

I cant finde anymore the Link or ther source now, but I have seen the pictures and on the tail of the Helicopter was written something like "Dragoon", according to the pictures which I have seen, they have a dark grey scheme and are extensivly used by SSG. May be some senior Members @fatman17 @hassan1 can sheet more light here ? thx

regards

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## Genghis khan1

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ Why?? + yes but surely the P8 will be better off the bat than any UPG P-3, so why not?? Surely the IN having it is a threat to PN? The P-3 Can't compete.



Boeing is working on upgrading the P8s for the US Navy. I guess it is better for PN to keep using P-3s right now and than acquire much more modernise version of P-8s few years down the road.

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## Aamir Hussain

@Ulla 

Thank you for the info bud.

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## black-hawk_101

Ulla said:


> We did get used Puma Helicopters from "Muslim" countries....:"PAA has acquired some from UAE" !
> 
> 
> 
> Nishan did not kinow that "Hassan" is a old men  he thought he had finde somone in his age (check Hassans picture
> 
> 
> 
> some years ago they did get a body overhaul and a upgrade !



Tell me one thing! There are many Muslim countries who are operating and looking to give away their Puma Type and Mi-17s which PA, PAF, PNAF and Pak Paramilitary can induct easily with upgrades.

I am sure there are 100s of Puma type and Mi-17s waiting for us.


----------



## fatman17

Ulla said:


> A selam Sir,
> 
> I cant finde anymore the Link or ther source now, but I have seen the pictures and on the tail of the Helicopter was written something like "Dragoon", according to the pictures which I have seen, they have a dark grey scheme and are extensivly used by SSG. May be some senior Members @fatman17 @hassan1 can sheet more light here ? thx
> 
> regards



It's correct

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## wiseone2

black-hawk_101 said:


> Tell me one thing! There are many Muslim countries who are operating and looking to give away their Puma Type and Mi-17s which PA, PAF, PNAF and Pak Paramilitary can induct easily with upgrades.
> 
> I am sure there are 100s of Puma type and Mi-17s waiting for us.



Why would any country give away operational helicopters ??


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## black-hawk_101

As most are buying new ones.


wiseone2 said:


> Why would any country give away operational helicopters ??


----------



## hassan1



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## Windjammer



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## Khafee

Aamir Hussain said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE? I don't remember that transaction taking place in 1977 -1979.
> 
> The Puma registry clearly shows with serial number for both production and allocation. From that info. it seems they were delivered to Pakistan after production!
> 
> Though UAE does use Puma and Super Puma for Naval use.



Year: 2009
Units: 14
Condition: For immediate use - Not Spare parts.

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## fatman17

khafee said:


> Year: 2009
> Units: 14
> Condition: For immediate use - Not Spare parts.



Only 6 - 8 helos were taken

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## black-hawk_101

Does PN planning to phase out their Sea Kings and get new or used versions of Mi17s or used Puma ?


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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> Only 6 - 8 helos were taken


Maybe the rest were cannibalized for parts?

Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan | Scoop News

*Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan*
*Monday, 6 July 2009, 1:17 pm*
*Ref: 09ABUDHABI686*
VZCZCXRO6714
PP RUEHDE RUEHDH RUEHDIR
DE RUEHAD #0686 1871317
ZNR UUUUU ZZH
P 061317Z JUL 09
FM AMEMBASSY ABU DHABI
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 2688
INFO RUEHDE/AMCONSUL DUBAI 8338
RUEHLB/AMEMBASSY BEIRUT 0641
RUEHIL/AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD 1742
RUEHZM/GULF COOPERATION COUNCIL COLLECTIVE
RHMFIUU/HQ USCENTCOM MACDILL AFB FL
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC

UNCLAS ABU DHABI 000686

SENSITIVE
SIPDIS

STATE FOR SRAP, SCA/P, NEA/ARP AND PM/DDTC

E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: MARR MOPS PREL ETRD PGOV PK AE
SUBJECT: GHQ TO TRANSFER PUMA HELICOPTERS TO PAKISTAN

1. (SBU) On July 6, the Ambassador met with UAE Armed Forces (GHQ)
Chief of Staff LtGen Mohamed Al Thani Al Rumaithi to urge GHQ to
complete expeditiously necessary USG documents for authorizing the
transfer to Pakistan of US-origin equipment (Rockwell Collins radios
and Cubic PLS) on 14 UAE Puma helicopters. Al Rumaithi said the UAE
was rotating the Pumas out of active duty and hoped to complete the
transfers quickly. He appeared unaware of the specific steps
required to obtain USG approval, but tasked his assistant Brig.
Faris Al Mazrouei with follow up. Al Mazrouei said Pakistan had
told GHQ that neither the radios or PLS were needed. The Ambassador
stressed that the USG could authorize the equipment for transfer to
Pakistan immediately upon receipt of the details from GHQ.

2. (SBU) Later on July 6, GHQ provided the necessary documents for
the transfer authorization of the Rockwell Collins radios, which
have been forwarded to PM/DDTC. Col. Waheed Al Zaaki of GHQ General
Purchasing told EconOff that he is now working to obtain a completed
DSP-83 for the Cubic equipment.
OLSON

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## Indus Falcon

@DESERT FIGHTER Any idea how many Pumas we actually got from the UAE?


----------



## Humble Analyst

Genghis khan1 said:


> Boeing is working on upgrading the P8s for the US Navy. I guess it is better for PN to keep using P-3s right now and than acquire much more modernise version of P-8s few years down the road.


India has P8s, would US sell Pakistan now? Highly unlikely


----------



## Genghis khan1

Humble Analyst said:


> India has P8s, would US sell Pakistan now? Highly unlikely


Why not, US already sold Pakistan P-3s before. US don't care if India bought few P8. US doesn't rely on India as a weapon export market like Russia.


----------



## fatman17

khafee said:


> Maybe the rest were cannibalized for parts?
> 
> Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan | Scoop News
> 
> *Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan*
> *Monday, 6 July 2009, 1:17 pm*
> *Ref: 09ABUDHABI686*
> VZCZCXRO6714
> PP RUEHDE RUEHDH RUEHDIR
> DE RUEHAD #0686 1871317
> ZNR UUUUU ZZH
> P 061317Z JUL 09
> FM AMEMBASSY ABU DHABI
> TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 2688
> INFO RUEHDE/AMCONSUL DUBAI 8338
> RUEHLB/AMEMBASSY BEIRUT 0641
> RUEHIL/AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD 1742
> RUEHZM/GULF COOPERATION COUNCIL COLLECTIVE
> RHMFIUU/HQ USCENTCOM MACDILL AFB FL
> RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC
> 
> UNCLAS ABU DHABI 000686
> 
> SENSITIVE
> SIPDIS
> 
> STATE FOR SRAP, SCA/P, NEA/ARP AND PM/DDTC
> 
> E.O. 12958: N/A
> TAGS: MARR MOPS PREL ETRD PGOV PK AE
> SUBJECT: GHQ TO TRANSFER PUMA HELICOPTERS TO PAKISTAN
> 
> 1. (SBU) On July 6, the Ambassador met with UAE Armed Forces (GHQ)
> Chief of Staff LtGen Mohamed Al Thani Al Rumaithi to urge GHQ to
> complete expeditiously necessary USG documents for authorizing the
> transfer to Pakistan of US-origin equipment (Rockwell Collins radios
> and Cubic PLS) on 14 UAE Puma helicopters. Al Rumaithi said the UAE
> was rotating the Pumas out of active duty and hoped to complete the
> transfers quickly. He appeared unaware of the specific steps
> required to obtain USG approval, but tasked his assistant Brig.
> Faris Al Mazrouei with follow up. Al Mazrouei said Pakistan had
> told GHQ that neither the radios or PLS were needed. The Ambassador
> stressed that the USG could authorize the equipment for transfer to
> Pakistan immediately upon receipt of the details from GHQ.
> 
> 2. (SBU) Later on July 6, GHQ provided the necessary documents for
> the transfer authorization of the Rockwell Collins radios, which
> have been forwarded to PM/DDTC. Col. Waheed Al Zaaki of GHQ General
> Purchasing told EconOff that he is now working to obtain a completed
> DSP-83 for the Cubic equipment.
> OLSON



This is about the radios on the Pumas as pumas are french manufactured.


----------



## black-hawk_101

Humble Analyst said:


> India has P8s, would US sell Pakistan now? Highly unlikely


Give away OHPs and buy some more P-3Cs.


----------



## Humble Analyst

black-hawk_101 said:


> Give away OHPs and buy some more P-3Cs.


 Are
OHPs that bad, would that exchange be possible and getting rid of six Frigates for P3s?

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## Aamir Hussain

Uncle Sam is operating a WalMart now -- if u don't like it get a refund or exchange with other goodies!

On a serious note -- we might still have two P-3C's earmarked for us (Conversion to AWACS -- both systems were to be earmarked separately - we were supposed to pay for the conversion to AWAC's and the for the radar systems) and there was talk of replacing the two lost in the PNS Mehran incident. I wonder what happened to that?

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## CHI RULES

black-hawk_101 said:


> Give away OHPs and buy some more P-3Cs.


PN has only one OHP and it is also useless in current configuration perhaps we should break it down and sell it's scrap.

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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> This is about the radios on the Pumas as pumas are french manufactured.


Are you trolling a newbie on the forum?

*Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan*
*Monday, 6 July 2009, 1:17 pm*
*Cable: Wikileaks*
*Ref: 09ABUDHABI686*


VZCZCXRO6714 
PP RUEHDE RUEHDH RUEHDIR 
DE RUEHAD #0686 1871317 
ZNR UUUUU ZZH 
P 061317Z JUL 09 
FM AMEMBASSY ABU DHABI 
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 2688 
INFO RUEHDE/AMCONSUL DUBAI 8338 
RUEHLB/AMEMBASSY BEIRUT 0641 
RUEHIL/AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD 1742 
RUEHZM/GULF COOPERATION COUNCIL COLLECTIVE 
RHMFIUU/HQ USCENTCOM MACDILL AFB FL 
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC

UNCLAS ABU DHABI 000686

SENSITIVE 
SIPDIS

STATE FOR SRAP, SCA/P, NEA/ARP AND PM/DDTC

E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: MARR MOPS PREL ETRD PGOV PK AE 
SUBJECT: GHQ TO TRANSFER PUMA HELICOPTERS TO PAKISTAN

1. (SBU) On July 6, the Ambassador met with UAE Armed Forces (GHQ) 
Chief of Staff LtGen Mohamed Al Thani Al Rumaithi to urge GHQ to 
complete expeditiously necessary USG documents for authorizing the 
transfer to Pakistan of US-origin equipment (Rockwell Collins radios 
and Cubic PLS) on 14 UAE Puma helicopters. *Al Rumaithi said the UAE 
was rotating the Pumas out of active duty and hoped to complete the 
transfers quickly.* He appeared unaware of the specific steps 
required to obtain USG approval, but tasked his assistant Brig. 
Faris Al Mazrouei with follow up. Al Mazrouei said Pakistan had 
told GHQ that neither the radios or PLS were needed. The Ambassador 
stressed that the USG could authorize the equipment for transfer to 
Pakistan immediately upon receipt of the details from GHQ.

2. (SBU) Later on July 6, GHQ provided the necessary documents for 
the transfer authorization of the Rockwell Collins radios, which 
have been forwarded to PM/DDTC. Col. Waheed Al Zaaki of GHQ General 
Purchasing told EconOff that he is now working to obtain a completed 
DSP-83 for the Cubic equipment. 
OLSON 

Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan | Scoop News

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## Humble Analyst

CHI RULES said:


> PN has only one OHP and it is also useless in current configuration perhaps we should break it down and sell it's scrap.


 Thanks, I read we got it 1 in 2010 and we were supposed to get 5 more and probably never got them. Will they exchange it with P3s? LOLZ


----------



## black-hawk_101

CHI RULES said:


> PN has only one OHP and it is also useless in current configuration perhaps we should break it down and sell it's scrap.


No it can't be. Just it can be given to US back again or may be US will give it to bahrain which operates one already to have a twin sister ship. In return PN should ask US to supply some 3-4 more P-3Cs which are really lethal.


----------



## monitor

Newly built ATR 72-500 Maritime Patrol aircraft with registration number 9H-AGI (cn 808) Will be the 3rd ATR for Pakistan Navy.
Officials of TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industry) says we will upgrade Pakistan's ATR fleet which will be capable for ASW (Anti-Submarine warfare) missions.

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## black-hawk_101

monitor said:


> Newly built ATR 72-500 Maritime Patrol aircraft with registration number 9H-AGI (cn 808) Will be the 3rd ATR for Pakistan Navy.
> Officials of TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industry) says we will upgrade Pakistan's ATR fleet which will be capable for ASW (Anti-Submarine warfare) missions.



I think PN now more committed towards P-3Cs and ATR-72s then before....


----------



## hassan1



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## monitor

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PN now more committed towards P-3Cs and ATR-72s then before....


Of course ATR probably going to replace focker and trusted and proven p3c Orion will serve PN for many years.

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## black-hawk_101

monitor said:


> Of course ATR probably going to replace focker and trusted and proven p3c Orion will serve PN for many years.


The current requirements might be like this:
10 P-3Cs
10 ATR-72s
3-5 P-3C with Hawkeye-2000s
may be 5-10 ATR-42s for MSA

I know this is too much but the requirement is growing day by day. I am sure funds will be available too as privatization is going and US might agree as Pakistani Politics might sign the CTBT.

Who is the buyer of Sea King now? And is PN planning to acquire some 15-20 used Puma class for naval role or may be some new NH-90/AW-101/Sea Stallions with Black Hawk.

Though it was better for PN to have:
Sea Stallions with Black Hawk + Dauphins from France rather than Z-9s.


----------



## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> The current requirements might be like this:
> 10 P-3Cs
> 10 ATR-72s
> 3-5 P-3C with Hawkeye-2000s
> may be 5-10 ATR-42s for MSA
> 
> I know this is too much but the requirement is growing day by day. I am sure funds will be available too as privatization is going and US might agree as Pakistani Politics might sign the CTBT.
> 
> Who is the buyer of Sea King now? And is PN planning to acquire some 15-20 used Puma class for naval role or may be some new NH-90/AW-101/Sea Stallions with Black Hawk.
> 
> Though it was better for PN to have:
> Sea Stallions with Black Hawk + Dauphins from France rather than Z-9s.



I think it's time you joined the ministry of defence as a procurement analyst. Obviously they don't know what to buy.

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## black-hawk_101

OK. What PN is planning for the replacement of Sea Kings and Alouttee III?
I think NH-90/AW-101 with some AS 550 Fennecs would be best.


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## Bratva

black-hawk_101 said:


> OK. What PN is planning for the replacement of Sea Kings and Alouttee III?
> I think NH-90/AW-101 with some AS 550 Fennecs would be best.



PN planning department is meeting in Mental hospital to discuss the future procurement. I guess you should join them too.

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## fatman17

Re: Aircraft Taking Part in Relief Operations for Earthquake Affectees

PostFri Oct 30, 2015 10:41 am


Information about Pakistan Navy F27 serial number AR-NZW / 75. It's forty-four years old.

Aircraft Type: Fokker F27 Friendship Mark 400M
Construction Number: 10469
Year Built: 1971
First Flight: October 20, 1971

It joined Pakistan Navy in December 1993 as AR-NZW / 69.

The first operator of this F27 was Ivory Coast Air Force. List of operators from past to present:

November 1971 - Ivory Coast Air Force under registration TU-VAK.
April 1979 - Air Alpes under registration F-GBDE.
May 1979 - Tunisavia under registration F-GBDE.
May 1980 - Air Alpes under registration F-GBDE.
August 1981 - United African Airlines under registration 5A-DJN.
June 1985 - Jamahiriya Air Transport under registration 5A-DJN.
December 1986 - Homac Aviation under registration HB-AAP.
March 1987 - Schreiner Airways under registration PH-SFC.
July 1987 - XP Airlines - Express Parcel Systems under registration PH-SFC.
June 1989 - Schreiner Airways under registration PH-SFC.
October 1989 - Field Survey Flight (Surveyer operated for British Petroleum - BP) under registration PH-SFC.
July 1990 - Field Survey Flight (Surveyer operated for British Petroleum - BP) under registration VR-BLY.
December 1993 - Pakistan Navy serial number 69.
September 1997 - Pakistan Navy serial number 75.

Source: http://www.scramble.nl/civil-database/d ... F27&af=578

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## black-hawk_101

the 6 Sea King PN operates has a good chance to be sold to other countries and PN should also adopt the Euro Copters Naval version along with some Dauphins and Fennec.

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## hassan1



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## Khafee

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 269595


Wasn't this aircraft shot down?


----------



## ConcealCarry

NO, he is pointing to the mentioned approval was for "US Radios" installed in Puma's, not for the Puma's themselves.




khafee said:


> Are you trolling a newbie on the forum?
> 
> *Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan*
> *Monday, 6 July 2009, 1:17 pm
> Cable: Wikileaks
> Ref: 09ABUDHABI686*
> 
> 
> VZCZCXRO6714
> PP RUEHDE RUEHDH RUEHDIR
> DE RUEHAD #0686 1871317
> ZNR UUUUU ZZH
> P 061317Z JUL 09
> FM AMEMBASSY ABU DHABI
> TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 2688
> INFO RUEHDE/AMCONSUL DUBAI 8338
> RUEHLB/AMEMBASSY BEIRUT 0641
> RUEHIL/AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD 1742
> RUEHZM/GULF COOPERATION COUNCIL COLLECTIVE
> RHMFIUU/HQ USCENTCOM MACDILL AFB FL
> RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC
> 
> UNCLAS ABU DHABI 000686
> 
> SENSITIVE
> SIPDIS
> 
> STATE FOR SRAP, SCA/P, NEA/ARP AND PM/DDTC
> 
> E.O. 12958: N/A
> TAGS: MARR MOPS PREL ETRD PGOV PK AE
> SUBJECT: GHQ TO TRANSFER PUMA HELICOPTERS TO PAKISTAN
> 
> 1. (SBU) On July 6, the Ambassador met with UAE Armed Forces (GHQ)
> Chief of Staff LtGen Mohamed Al Thani Al Rumaithi to urge GHQ to
> complete expeditiously necessary USG documents for authorizing the
> transfer to Pakistan of US-origin equipment (Rockwell Collins radios
> and Cubic PLS) on 14 UAE Puma helicopters. *Al Rumaithi said the UAE
> was rotating the Pumas out of active duty and hoped to complete the
> transfers quickly.* He appeared unaware of the specific steps
> required to obtain USG approval, but tasked his assistant Brig.
> Faris Al Mazrouei with follow up. Al Mazrouei said *Pakistan had *
> *told GHQ that neither the radios or PLS were needed*. The Ambassador
> stressed that the USG could authorize the equipment for transfer to
> Pakistan immediately upon receipt of the details from GHQ.
> 
> 2. (SBU) Later on July 6, *GHQ provided the necessary documents for
> the transfer authorization of the Rockwell Collins radios*, which
> have been forwarded to PM/DDTC. Col. Waheed Al Zaaki of GHQ General
> Purchasing told EconOff that he is now working to obtain a completed
> DSP-83 for the Cubic equipment.
> OLSON
> 
> Cablegate: Ghq to Transfer Puma Helicopters to Pakistan | Scoop News



Seriously I am really I am pressed with your ability to ignore all the fun and insults and continue with your senseless but very "number" specific rants............you are a prime example of a person who never learns.....like you load a ton of books on a donkey but they don't affect him a bit............. please carry on you were saying we should sell our 3 obsolete sea kings to Britain and buy 97.5 Lama's from Tobago... 



black-hawk_101 said:


> OK. What PN is planning for the replacement of Sea Kings and Alouttee III?
> I think NH-90/AW-101 with some AS 550 Fennecs would be best.

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## Aamir Hussain

He will come up with another wishlist and numbers in response to your post!

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Muhammad Omar

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 272161



yeh bomb kahan lagaya hua hai?

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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> yeh bomb kahan lagaya hua hai?


missile is been fitted on hard point

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## SSGcommandoPAK

fatman17 said:


> _-_*Pakistan Naval Aviation*
> 
> Updated on 13/3/2011
> 
> GENERAL | ORDER OF BATTLE | INVENTORY | BASES
> 
> 
> The main Pakistan Naval Aviation base is located at Pakistan Navy Ship (PNS) Mehran, located on the western side of the runway. It operates a fleet of Alouette IIIs, Sea Kings, Atlantics, F-27 Friendships and P-3C Orions. The US Government recently agreed to donate seven P-3Cs to the Pakistan Navy through its Foreign Military Sales process, although they will be refurbished in Pakistan. To date two aircraft are believed to have been delivered, joining the two P-3Cs that were returned to service in September 2006 after years of being in store due to a lack of spares. China has sold six Harbin Z-9EC anti-submarine helicopters to the Pakistan Navy for use on their Type 21 destroyers, with the first of these delivered on 23rd September, 2009.
> 
> The Atlantics and the Sea King Mk. 46s are equipped with the AM-39 Exocet for the anti-shipping role. The Lynx HAS.3s acquired from the Royal Navy in 1994 have recently been withdrawn from service, due to various reasons, so it is believed that the naval air arm has lost its capability to use Sea Skua and Mk 46 Lightweight Torpedoes in the anti-submarine role from helicopter platforms.
> 
> Also based at PNS Mehran althought not part of the Naval Aviation are two BN-2 Defenders flown by the Maritime Surveillance Flights 93 Sqn. The Flight is mainly tasked for patrolling Pakistans Economic Exclusion Zone and reports to the Director General of the Maritime Security Agency.
> 
> *Order of Battle*
> 
> 222 Squadron was deactivated by 2007 following the withdrawal of its Lynx HAS.3 helicopters. The squadron was resurrected in late September 2009 to operate six newly-delivered HAIG Z-9EC Haifuns in the same anti-submarine role as its predecessors.
> 
> HQ Rawalpindi
> HQ Pakistan Armed Forces
> HQ Karachi
> HQ Pakistan Navy
> 
> PNS Mehran, Karachi
> HQ Pakistan Naval Air Arm
> 
> 27 Squadron
> 
> F-27-200MPA Friendship
> F-27-400M Troopship
> 
> 28 Squadron
> 
> P-3C-II.75 Orion
> 
> 29 Squadron
> 
> Br.1150 Atlantic
> 
> 111 Squadron
> 
> Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45
> Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45B
> 
> 222 Squadron
> 
> Z-9EC Haitun
> 
> 333 Squadron
> 
> SA316 B Alouette III
> SA319 B Alouette III Astazou
> 
> VIP/EW Flight
> 
> Hawker 850XP
> 
> HQ Karachi
> Maritime Security Agency
> 
> PNS Mehran, Karachi
> Maritime Surveillance Flight
> 
> 93 Squadron
> 
> BN-2T Maritime Defender
> 
> Aircraft
> 
> Aérospatiale
> SA316 B Alouette III
> - In service from 1983
> 
> SA319 B Alouette III Astazou
> - In service from 1972
> 
> - Note: The attrition losses both occurred on 12th October 1978, Reports from 2005 suggested that more aircrafts may be acquired in future. The first 2 from a planned batch of 6 former-French military examples were delivered on 11th April 2008, having been purchased via the UK-based company MNA Technologies Ltd.
> 
> 
> AgustaWestland
> Lynx HAS.
> - In service from September 1994 until 2005
> - Note: The type was withdrawn from service by 2005, with the airframes possibly due to be offered for sale for spares recovery purposes.
> 
> Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45
> Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk.45B
> 
> Breguet
> Br.1150 Atlantic
> 
> Britten-Norman
> BN-2T Maritime Defender
> 
> 
> Fokker D
> F-27-200MPA Friendship
> - Note: A 5th aircraft was added to the inventory on 11th April 2008; formerly operated by Pakistan International Airlines in passenger configuration, this has now been upgraded to fulfill the maritime patrol task.
> 
> F-27-400M Troopship
> 
> Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation
> Z-9EC Haitun
> - In service from October 2009
> - Note: A total of 6 Z-9EC helicopters were reportedly ordered from HAMC in 2005, with at least one example photographed in China during September 2007. The first 3 Haituns were finally handed-over in an official ceremony on 23rd September 2009, with a further 4 inducted during a similar inauguration on 4th November 2010.
> 
> 
> Hawker Beechcraft Corporation
> Hawker 850XP
> - In service from November 2010
> - Note: Although the aircraft was delivered to Pakistan in late August 2010, it was officially accepted into service during an official ceremony on 4th November 2010. Media reports suggest that the aircraft has an EW/surveillance role, but no details regarding specific sensor fits are known, nor whom performed any work that may have been undertaken with this in mind. The aircraft was manufactured in 2008, but is not believed to have been delivered to its intended customer in 2009.
> 
> 
> Lockheed
> P-3C-II.75 Orion
> - In service from 1997
> - Note: The acquisition of the original batch of 3 Orions was approved in 1988, with deliveries to the USN's training unit (VP-30 at Jacksonville, FL) taking place in late 1990. Although Pakistan Navy crews commenced training on the aircraft in February 1991, by mid-year the supply of the Orions was subject to an arms embargo & the aircraft were not delivered to Pakistan until December 1996 & January 1997, respectively. Folowing the Orion's official induction into service on 22nd January 1999, an attrition loss occurred on 29th October 1999 & the type was grounded shortly after. The 2 surviving aircraft were placed into storage for a number of years, but overhauled by OGMA, at Mehran, in 2006/2007 & returned to service. A further 7 refurbished ex-US Navy examples are now being supplied, following the lifting of the aforementioned embargo. The first 2 of these were delivered to Pakistan in January & March 2007, respectively, with the third & fourth examples handed-over in the USA during January 2010. Following a spell of time spent crew training at NAS Jacksonville, Florida, these were then flown to Mehran, Pakistan at the end of May 2010, where they were officially accepted into service at a formal ceremony on 1st June 2010.
> 
> *Bases*
> 
> HQ Karachi
> 
> HQ Rawalpindi
> 
> PNS Mehran, Karachi (Sharea Faisal)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFI




Pakistan Definitely needs some Jf-17s and Su-35 in their NAVAL Air ARM

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## Khafee

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 272161


Harpoon from a P3?


----------



## Random Jan-e-mann

Muhammad Omar said:


> yeh bomb kahan lagaya hua hai?



This is Bomb




and this is missile (Anti Surface Ships) Harpoon being fired in above picture


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## Khafee

Random Janeman said:


> Bomb..?
> This is Bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this is missile (Anti Surface Ships) Harpoon being fired in above picture



No need to ridicule anyone, we are all here to learn. Kindly edit your post. 

Thank You.

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## Random Jan-e-mann

Khafee said:


> No need to ridicule anyone, we are all here to learn. Kindly edit your post.
> 
> Thank You.


Edited Sir if you like i will delete mine ?


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## Khafee

Random Janeman said:


> Edited Sir if you like i will delete mine ?


No it's ok. Just be polite and civil, and InShaAllah you will get to learn a lot.

Thank You and have a good Evening!

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## Sulman Badshah

Khafee said:


> Harpoon from a P3?


yes


----------



## fatman17

3 ATR 42 - 500s have been inducted primarily in the transportation, logistics and training role. It seems that conversion to the MPA role has either been deferred or cancelled.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> 3 ATR 42 - 500s have been inducted primarily in the transportation, logistics and training role. It seems that conversion to the MPA role has either been deferred or cancelled.


herd that ATR72 will be converted to ASW role with turkish gadgets

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> herd that ATR72 will be converted to ASW role with turkish gadgets


What helicopters are made by China for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship role ? I mean other than Z-9


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> What helicopters are made by China for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship role ? I mean other than Z-9



Z-18F

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> What helicopters are made by China for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship role ? I mean other than Z-9


Z-9 
Z-18 

Y-8 aircraft for anti submarine warfare

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Z-9
> Z-18
> 
> Y-8 aircraft for anti submarine warfare


It seem we can have good boost to our Navy but we need to increase number of Frigates and Corvettes


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> It seem we can have good boost to our Navy but we need to increase number of Frigates and Corvettes


Navy budget isn't enough


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> 3 ATR 42 - 500s have been inducted primarily in the transportation, logistics and training role. It seems that conversion to the MPA role has either been deferred or cancelled.


There was an approval for additional ATR-72-600's to be bought. What happened to that?

PN has 3 ATR72-500 not ATR 42-500.

PIA on the other hand operates Both ATR42-500 and ATR72-500.



Sulman Badshah said:


> herd that ATR72 will be converted to ASW role with turkish gadgets


That is most likely the reason ATR's were selected.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Ankit Kumar

fatman17 said:


> Just a nice pic



Are the Z9s operated from OHP and Type21s too?


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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> 3 ATR 42 - 500s have been inducted primarily in the transportation, logistics and training role. It seems that conversion to the MPA role has either been deferred or cancelled.


How many ATRs in service???? Sir ..


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## fatman17

King of Hearts said:


> How many ATRs in service???? Sir ..



3 as in three

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## Super Falcon

Need replacment of sea kings with NH 90 Helos


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan should consider this baby for AWACs role ideal size for AWAC


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## Ankit Kumar

Super Falcon said:


> Need replacment of sea kings with NH 90 Helos



Why only NH90?
I mean there are quite a few other options too.
Like Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone of Canada, Eurocopter AS532 Cougar, Eurocopter EC725, AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat and the Chinese options .


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## Tipu7

Any plans to replace aging fleet of Sea Kings?


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## Super Falcon

CH 148 good but our naval stupid mind wont use it with CH 148 we can use for heavy lift work too


Ankit Kumar said:


> Why only NH90?
> I mean there are quite a few other options too.
> Like Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone of Canada, Eurocopter AS532 Cougar, Eurocopter EC725, AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat and the Chinese options .


H


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## Rashid Mahmood

Tipu7 said:


> Any plans to replace aging fleet of Sea Kings?



Not in the next 5 years.
The Z-9s have reduced the load on the SKs alot, so they have some juice left in them.


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## Blue Marlin

Ankit Kumar said:


> Why only NH90?
> I mean there are quite a few other options too.
> Like Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone of Canada, Eurocopter AS532 Cougar, Eurocopter EC725, AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat and the Chinese options .


I dont think they will go for Chinese on this one. the sea king's have been in service for a very long time and are rock solid reliable. whilst Chinese platforms...... im not sure as i have not seen Chinese choppers but the z-9 are quiet reliable. if they were to replace them i think they would go European. i quiet like the aw101 or the aw189, after all, of the European countries i think Italy has been the friendliest to Pakistan so i think they would go Italian. aw has a lot to offer to Pakistan in terms of replacing their fleet. they can have the aw109/119 to replace the alloutte3's they have and replace some of the older bell 412's with aw-149's too.

aw-101






aw-189


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## fatman17

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Not in the next 5 years.
> The Z-9s have reduced the load on the SKs alot, so they have some juice left in them.



Lots of used Sea kings available in the upgrade market.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Lots of used Sea kings available in the upgrade market.


The problem is the money AND more importantly the willingness of the sellers to sell to PAKISTAN. I am quite worried about our current position and status in the market, not that it is disastrous, not on an all time low either but the problem is there seem to be ABSOLUTELY no effort at all on governments part to improve the situation. I don't know what they are thinking or doing but our diplomatic efforts/activity are at all time low surely and there seem to be no foreign policy at work. That is a truly worrying sign. I personally see only Chinese equipment for a significant time to come. This and some machinery that we may get as aid from US, not much else. Russia IS a potential new friend but it will take time surely.


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> The problem is the money AND more importantly the willingness of the sellers to sell to PAKISTAN. I am quite worried about our current position and status in the market, not that it is disastrous, not on an all time low either but the problem is there seem to be ABSOLUTELY no effort at all on governments part to improve the situation. I don't know what they are thinking or doing but our diplomatic efforts/activity are at all time low surely and there seem to be no foreign policy at work. That is a truly worrying sign. I personally see only Chinese equipment for a significant time to come. This and some machinery that we may get as aid from US, not much else. Russia IS a potential new friend but it will take time surely.



You won't believe the price of a used seaking even if l told you. The helos require new or overhauled engines.


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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## ghazi52

.............





.........


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## niaz

fatman17 said:


> You won't believe the price of a used seaking even if l told you. The helos require new or overhauled engines.




Used Sea King Mk4 available for £150,000/- ($225K). 

Sea King, MK 4 Helicopter, #77744 - MOD Sales, Military Vehicles & Used Ex MOD Land Rovers for Sale

Of course these Sea Kings need to be refurbished which could cost upward of $2-million depending upon what is actually done to the helo. Sikorsky are notorious for charging high prices for their spare parts. For example in May 2010 US awarded a contract for $1.675 billion for the complete refurbishment & upgrade of 110 Sea King (S-61) helicopters to Sikorsky Corporation at the cost of $15-million per piece.


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## fatman17

niaz said:


> Used Sea King Mk4 available for £150,000/- ($225K).
> 
> Sea King, MK 4 Helicopter, #77744 - MOD Sales, Military Vehicles & Used Ex MOD Land Rovers for Sale
> 
> Of course these Sea Kings need to be refurbished which could cost upward of $2-million depending upon what is actually done to the helo. Sikorsky are notorious for charging high prices for their spare parts. For example in May 2010 US awarded a contract for $1.675 billion for the complete refurbishment & upgrade of 110 Sea King (S-61) helicopters to Sikorsky Corporation at the cost of $15-million per piece.



UK seakings are going for cheap as mentioned by you. An upgrade with new engine will cost 2 to 3 mill $ which is a bargain. heck at 5 mill it is a bargain as compared to new helos.

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## fatman17

Coastal Security Excercise at Ormara


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## fatman17

Maritime Strike

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 300229
> 
> Maritime Strike


maritime strike over rice fields

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## Taha Samad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/721741509838692353

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## Cornered Tiger

Taha Samad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/721741509838692353


Wow, feeling proud to see this one. Pakistan can do this at home. Wow


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## Cornered Tiger

Aamir Hussain said:


> Can you share some info. as to when and how we got the Pumas from UAE? I don't remember that transaction taking place in 1977 -1979.
> 
> The Puma registry clearly shows with serial number for both production and allocation. From that info. it seems they were delivered to Pakistan after production!
> 
> Though UAE does use Puma and Super Puma for Naval use.





Ulla said:


> A selam Sir,
> 
> I cant finde anymore the Link or ther source now, but I have seen the pictures and on the tail of the Helicopter was written something like "Dragoon", according to the pictures which I have seen, they have a dark grey scheme and are extensivly used by SSG





Khafee said:


> Year: 2009
> Units: 14
> Condition: For immediate use - Not Spare parts.





fatman17 said:


> Only 6 - 8 helos were taken



Sir I want to ask, 
1) Does PN operate these 6-8 Used Puma Helicopters or Is It the Army who operates these birds?? 
2) Also Somewhere on PDF I heard of 3-5 used SeaKings acquired for Navy.. Is it True??


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## Cornered Tiger

World Air Forces 2016 Report suggest PNA operates 2 x Mi-14s.. Is It true???


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## muhammadali233

Cornered Tiger said:


> World Air Forces 2016 Report suggest PNA operates 2 x Mi-14s.. Is It true???


Army Ordered 2 or 3 for fire fighting purposes later decommissioned/cancelled or might be even Transferred to another arm


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## Rain

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 294271


cant see the pic


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Cornered Tiger said:


> World Air Forces 2016 Report suggest PNA operates 2 x Mi-14s.. Is It true???


Do you have that in PDF , or its source ? If yes please share.Thanks.


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## Cornered Tiger

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Do you have that in PDF , or its source ? If yes please share.Thanks.



https://www.flightglobal.com/asset/6297/waf/

Create your own account and get your copy. Section "Pakistan" at the end of Page 25. Sub-section "Pakistan Navy" at Page 26 first column.

Have a good read



muhammadali233 said:


> Army Ordered 2 or 3 for fire fighting purposes later decommissioned/cancelled or might be even Transferred to another arm
> View attachment 302833



These are designed to be Anti-Submarine Choppers. Navy can have a good time with them..

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## fatman17

The Mi14s are under the command of NDMA

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## fatman17

F27 MSA interior

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## fatman17

Karakoram Eagle

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## fatman17

On finals

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## war&peace

Super Falcon said:


> for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget


In military hardware 20 yrs is not a lot of time. F-16 is from 1970s and still it is going strong, F-15 is even older and that's USAF main strike platform till date. Naval equipment is normally more expensive just due to sheer size and weapons systems on it, so would be foolish to replace it after 5-10 years. However, these systems get periodic upgrades with new electronics, weapon systems and other equipment through retrofits. You can change your point and shoot camera or a smart phone every year but you will find it difficult to change your car especially if you have slightly better brand like Bentley or Maybach unless you are super rich.


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## Super Falcon

war&peace said:


> In military hardware 20 yrs is not a lot of time. F-16 is from 1970s and still it is going strong, F-15 is even older and that's USAF main strike platform till date. Naval equipment is normally more expensive just due to sheer size and weapons systems on it, so would be foolish to replace it after 5-10 years. However, these systems get periodic upgrades with new electronics, weapon systems and other equipment through retrofits. You can change your point and shoot camera or a smart phone every year but you will find it difficult to change your car especially if you have slightly better brand like Bentley or Maybach unless you are super rich.


Tell me when did Pak airforce and navy bought new weapons other than F 22 FRIGATE and JF 17
after 2000 these two did nothing our Navy if you take 4 F 22 frigates it uses old ships

F 16 don't consider new them and only thunder you can say it is new one


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## war&peace

Super Falcon said:


> Tell me when did Pak airforce and navy bought new weapons other than F 22 FRIGATE and JF 17
> after 2000 these two did nothing our Navy if you take 4 F 22 frigates it uses old ships
> 
> F 16 don't consider new them and only thunder you can say it is new one


Have you read my comment?


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## MastanKhan

Super Falcon said:


> for how long we keep depending on 20 years old stuf time have came for both air and navy to go for new weapons if they cant buy new than atleast dont waste money on those systems who cannot deliver in war time better keep money safe P 3C was best but not know many systems came and many countries are replacing it every year we increase our defence budget but our defence dont get anything new than why increase defence budget




Hi,

For not procuring the right equipment to fill in the hole left by sanctions---that is tantamount to treason.

That is why I have stated many a times that Paf has comitted treason against the state.

There is nothing wrong with a 20 years old weapon----but until and unless you have not upgraded them and procured newer machines---it is a fail fail situation.

And about the P3C's----now don't under estimate the power of older electronic equipment. It depends a lot on the operator and his officer---.

To give you an example---many a retired U S satelites who are considered dead maybe still supplying data that is useful.

As long as some of our offensive capabilities are matching the enemy---the older equipment will do its job right.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Navy ATR 72 at Dusseldorf Monchengladbach Airport - Germany

PostFri Jun 24, 2016 6:40 pm

Pakistan Navy ATR 72-500 aircraft serial number 79 seen at Dusseldorf Monchengladbach Airport, Germany, on June 20, 2016, probably for maintenance checks at Rheinland Air Service (RAS) - ras.de.

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## .




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## Blue Marlin

sure the p-3c may be old and in service in many countries but now that they are planning for replacements such as the p8 what will pakistan go for? sure this is about 10 years away but what would be an ideal platform?


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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> sure the p-3c may be old and in service in many countries but now that they are planning for replacements such as the p8 what will pakistan go for? sure this is about 10 years away but what would be an ideal platform?



Likely to be a Chinese type yet to be decided


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Likely to be a Chinese type yet to be decided


i would have imagined you would have gone for the sword fish from saab or possibly a p8 too?
heck but theres big bro china too with the y-8q

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Blue Marlin said:


> i would have imagined you would have gone for the sword fish from saab or possibly a p8 too?
> heck but theres big bro china too with the y-8q



This is a great platform in the making.. combined and datalinked with ZDK you can cover a vast area of operationis.

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## Quwa

The P-3Cs will likely be done away with MPA variants of the ATR-72 and C-295.

The former is more obvious since the PN is in the process of inducting ATR-72 ASWs, but the C-295 is another affordable platform capable of ASW and AShW (in addition to maritime surveillance).

Personally, I'd go nuts by configuring Airbus A-320s with the Saab Swordfish kit.

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## fatman17

Z9ec in ASW role

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

I saw some Euro Copter people at Karsaz yesterday. anything in the works here?


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## hassan1

fatman17 said:


> I saw some Euro Copter people at Karsaz yesterday. anything in the works here?


NOT EURO COPTER ITS Z-9EC


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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> NOT EURO COPTER ITS Z-9EC
> View attachment 328339



Talking about people from eurocopter visiting PN

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## fatman17

New arrivals


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## fatman17

Z9ec


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> I saw some Euro Copter people at Karsaz yesterday. anything in the works here?


Eurocopter was absorbed into Airbus Helicopters, and that company actually maintains an office (to help with life-cycle support and maintenance) in Pakistan. They could be making a play to replace the PN's Sea Kings with the H225m Caracal.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Eurocopter was absorbed into Airbus Helicopters, and that company actually maintains an office (to help with life-cycle support and maintenance) in Pakistan. They could be making a play to replace the PN's Sea Kings with the H225m Caracal.


If we can get those old sea kings replaced that would be great. However i would love to see a common platform for all the ships. It was said that we chose Sea King for the new fleet tanker. I guess we should stick to one option, maximum tow!! Buying all sorts of helicopters and buying them all in single digit quantities do not makes much sense to me at least.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> If we can get those old sea kings replaced that would be great. However i would love to see a common platform for all the ships. It was said that we chose Sea King for the new fleet tanker. I guess we should stick to one option, maximum tow!! Buying all sorts of helicopters and buying them all in single digit quantities do not makes much sense to me at least.


The Caracal is essentially just a modified Super Puma, which the Army may be interested in (if the MoDP's statements about the revived Romanian line is of any indication). Airbus Helicopters managed to bring the Super Puma's unit price to the same ballpark of the Mi-171. The Caracal is much more expensive though, but the Navy wouldn't need many.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Caracal is essentially just a modified Super Puma, which the Army may be interested in (if the MoDP's statements about the revived Romanian line is of any indication). Airbus Helicopters managed to bring the Super Puma's unit price to the same ballpark of the Mi-171. The Caracal is much more expensive though, but the Navy wouldn't need many.


Yeah i know about the Puma connection and frankly it will make sense if army do go for Super Puma to compliment Mi17 and navy goes for these more expensive Caracals' since these are required in lower number. We can then replace the sea kings etc. AW129 are also being bought but that is in limited numbers as well, i would have liked if those Puma was considered for that as well if we have decided to go for it eventually. However, still i am not so sure why would we want to replace Mi17 with Puma specially considering the fact that Mi17 is what we have in big numbers, we have the training and equipment to fly and maintain them and CHINA have a production for these now. I guess Mi17 are the best option for us in this category. 

lets see what happens.


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## fatman17

Pakistan navy rolls out new ATR 72 and ScanEagle



02 SEPTEMBER, 2016 BY: BETH STEVENSON LONDON

The Pakistan navy has inducted two new capabilities into its air fleet, namely the ATR 72 twin-engined turboprop, which will be configured as a maritime patrol aircraft, and the Insitu ScanEagle unmanned air vehicle.

According to video and news reports from Pakistan, chief of naval staff Adm Muhammad Zakaullah introduced the aircraft at an event at Pakistan naval station Mehran in Karachi, saying they would contribute to the service’s “Aviation Vision 2030”.

In July, pictures emerged of an ATR 72 with Pakistan markings at Rheinland Air Service’s facilities in Germany, where it is understood that the aircraft will undergo modifications to take it to a maritime patrol configuration.

Flight Fleets Analyzer shows that the navy has three ATR 72s in its inventory that will receive the modifications. Aircraft 712 and 808 were at the roll-out at Mehran, with the former next to go in for conversion and the latter – having been delivered in April – likely to be modified last.

Aircraft 788, meanwhile, is already being configured, having entered the workshop in July, Flight Fleets Analyzer shows.

The three aircraft had previously been operated in a civilian role by airlines including Air Botswana, Binter Canariasand Islas Airways.

The ScanEagle, meanwhile, was acquired by Pakistan under an order with the US government placed via its Foreign Military Sales mechanism. Announced in September 2015, the order was made in parallel with others from Cameroon and Kenya, which are acquiring one ScanEagle system each.

Details of Pakistan’s $15.2 million order were announced at the time by the US Department of Defense, but the number of systems delivered was not disclosed. The DoD said hardware and technical data would be delivered to the Pakistani government under the programme by August 2016. It added that 90% of the programme work would be carried out in the USA, with the remaining 10% in Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Yeah i know about the Puma connection and frankly it will make sense if army do go for Super Puma to compliment Mi17 and navy goes for these more expensive Caracals' since these are required in lower number. We can then replace the sea kings etc. AW129 are also being bought but that is in limited numbers as well, i would have liked if those Puma was considered for that as well if we have decided to go for it eventually. However, still i am not so sure why would we want to replace Mi17 with Puma specially considering the fact that Mi17 is what we have in big numbers, we have the training and equipment to fly and maintain them and CHINA have a production for these now. I guess Mi17 are the best option for us in this category.
> 
> lets see what happens.


We could operate both Mi-171 and Super Puma. We have the necessary infrastructure for both, it is just a question of scaling as much as possible. Somewhat redundant, yes, but one could also start distributing the industry element - an MRO line for Baluchistan and an MRO line for KP. Standardize the civil and government requirement on the AW139, bring in the MRO for it (in Sindh). The PAF doesn't need many helicopters, just a few for S&R and SOC ops in high threat areas, the Caracal should suffice. If we select the T-129 with MRO and some offsets, we'd have the groundwork for a helicopter industry.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We could operate both Mi-171 and Super Puma. We have the necessary infrastructure for both, it is just a question of scaling as much as possible. Somewhat redundant, yes, but one could also start distributing the industry element - an MRO line for Baluchistan and an MRO line for KP. Standardize the civil and government requirement on the AW139, bring in the MRO for it (in Sindh). The PAF doesn't need many helicopters, just a few for S&R and SOC ops in high threat areas, the Caracal should suffice. If we select the T-129 with MRO and some offsets, we'd have the groundwork for a helicopter industry.


Well Puma and Mi17 both in operation (though they offer the same capabilities so we can do with one of them as well) is fine but getting some three four other planes as well is when it starts getting problematic. Specially when we are buying four AW129 here, 5 Sea Kings there! Stuff like that. We must look to standardize AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Especially when the different platforms are not offering much over the other ones. 
I am not sure what was the reason for going for AW129 frankly speaking. They are super expensive and we could have done the same with the choppers we operate in numbers. Luxury?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Well Puma and Mi17 both in operation (though they offer the same capabilities so we can do with one of them as well) is fine but getting some three four other planes as well is when it starts getting problematic. Specially when we are buying four AW129 here, 5 Sea Kings there! Stuff like that. We must look to standardize AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Especially when the different platforms are not offering much over the other ones.
> I am not sure what was the reason for going for AW129 frankly speaking. They are super expensive and we could have done the same with the choppers we operate in numbers. Luxury?


The AW139 has quite a bit of scale on the global market, it might not be that expensive (to buy or operate). It seems like a decent enough civil utility helicopter, we can just hope the entire civil apparatus standardizes on it as much as possible. It would be horrible if Lahore starts an air ambulance service, but with T-70 Black Hawks from Turkey...

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The AW139 has quite a bit of scale on the global market, it might not be that expensive (to buy or operate). It seems like a decent enough civil utility helicopter, we can just hope the entire civil apparatus standardizes on it as much as possible. It would be horrible if Lahore starts an air ambulance service, but with T-70 Black Hawks from Turkey...


True and ok now, i do feel that we can fit in AW129 as well somewhere in there if we can find wide spread civilian usage for this. Try and standardize it for the gov. use, emergency evac and medical and things like that. That will mean we will be operating a sort of decent number and thus will be able to support limited numbers in military as well. For military use we must try and standardize on one or MAX 2 platforms for transport and utility (med lift) and same for light utility and transport. Attack helo fleet may come in 2 or 3 types. Just try and get a decent number in service so it do not ends up as a logistics nightmare!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> True and ok now, i do feel that we can fit in AW129 as well somewhere in there if we can find wide spread civilian usage for this. Try and standardize it for the gov. use, emergency evac and medical and things like that. That will mean we will be operating a sort of decent number and thus will be able to support limited numbers in military as well. For military use we must try and standardize on one or MAX 2 platforms for transport and utility (med lift) and same for light utility and transport. Attack helo fleet may come in 2 or 3 types. Just try and get a decent number in service so it do not ends up as a logistics nightmare!


There are a couple of other considerations. The Navy's top-end utility need (i.e. to replace the Sea King) is going to hover in the 6-8 unit range and max out at 12. Unless there's a sudden influx of a lot of surface ships, they wouldn't need many, perhaps fewer than the six Sea Kings (if more efficient turnaround times and heavier payloads are attained - e.g. AW101 or Caracal). In that case, as nice as standardization would be, the marginal benefit of roping in the Navy isn't going to be that great. In fact, it may end up being detrimental in that for the sake of standardization, we may prevent the Navy from acquiring the best possible platform for its needs. Inversely, the Navy's pursuit of the ideal naval platform might burden the PA with an overly expensive platform. This wouldn't be the case with the Caracal, it is - thankfully - a Super Puma at heart. But what if the Caracal isn't that great in replacing the Sea King? Perhaps the AW101 is the better fit?

These "micro needs" (e.g. 8-12 units) are tricky to deal with when trying to push for standardization between each of the service arms. I think one method would be to break the needs apart in terms of tier. For example, "Tier A" would involve helicopters that are high-quality, packed with ECM/EW and weapons capable. These Tier A units would be used by the Navy as well as Army and Air Force SOF units. The three need to agree upon the same Tier A platform.

For Tier B - i.e. the beater - then we basically build upon the platforms we already own. The Hip and Puma have newer iterations utilizing many of the same components (e.g. engine, transmission, etc), we should just switch up to newer versions such as Mi-171 and Super Puma. Who knows, maybe the Ministry of Interior, Navy Marines, etc, can buy a bunch of the beaters too.

For Tier C - i.e. the civil helicopter - we just stick to what we already have, i.e. the AW139, and we mainstream it across the civil service.

For Tier X - i.e. the attack helicopter - the Army needs to be rational and select the one platform that works best in all main combat environments.

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## Arsalan

True again, in fact, i think the same for Civilian use and that is why i mentioned that we may standardize AW139 and that can support a few special requirement units of military as well. Same goes for naval ones as well where the requirement will be low. We are already operating Z9C as well. We wont be needing double figure numbers for Sea King or a Caracal or whatever we end up choosing so i think that we should decide carefully and buy any one kind for Navy since they number will be around 8 - 10. Caracal offers a major advantage over Z9C in terms of range and we can even chose to operate a few from land.Sea King can also be the choice. 

The requirement for air force is again of limited numbers so it will be best if that can be paired with someone, like the AW139 for civilian use!! They also wont have special mission requirements, NAVY HAVE!

The main thing about standardizing it will come from army. They are the ones who need the biggest fleet and a couple of different chopper can fit in. May be Mi17 and Super Puma (as that will also support Navy's Caracal if that is what they decide to go for).

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## SQ8

Arsalan said:


> True again, in fact, i think the same for Civilian use and that is why i mentioned that we may standardize AW139 and that can support a few special requirement units of military as well. Same goes for naval ones as well where the requirement will be low. We are already operating Z9C as well. We wont be needing double figure numbers for Sea King or a Caracal or whatever we end up choosing so i think that we should decide carefully and buy any one kind for Navy since they number will be around 8 - 10. Caracal offers a major advantage over Z9C in terms of range and we can even chose to operate a few from land.Sea King can also be the choice.
> 
> The requirement for air force is again of limited numbers so it will be best if that can be paired with someone, like the AW139 for civilian use!! They also wont have special mission requirements, NAVY HAVE!
> 
> The main thing about standardizing it will come from army. They are the ones who need the biggest fleet and a couple of different chopper can fit in. May be Mi17 and Super Puma (as that will also support Navy's Caracal if that is what they decide to go for).



The issue has to do with various kickback operated influences that will work towards the decision. I do not doubt that the AW-139 is a fine choice as a standardized fit; yet the Puma series has been operated for long so the flight characteristics are well known as knowledge. 

What should be done is to stick with the Mi-17 as the backbone for the Army, Puma's for high alt, 412 as the utility and the Squirrels for light observation. 

The Navy needs something that can operate out of the F-22Ps and the Z-9 is the right fit.

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## muhammadali233

Oscar said:


> The issue has to do with various kickback operated influences that will work towards the decision. I do not doubt that the AW-139 is a fine choice as a standardized fit; yet the Puma series has been operated for long so the flight characteristics are well known as knowledge.
> 
> What should be done is to stick with the Mi-17 as the backbone for the Army, Puma's for high alt, 412 as the utility and the Squirrels for light observation.
> 
> The Navy needs something that can operate out of the F-22Ps and the Z-9 is the right fit.


Squirrels or Ecureuils ?


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## SQ8

muhammadali233 said:


> Squirrels or Ecureuils ?


That is what they are called in French.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> True again, in fact, i think the same for Civilian use and that is why i mentioned that we may standardize AW139 and that can support a few special requirement units of military as well. Same goes for naval ones as well where the requirement will be low. We are already operating Z9C as well. We wont be needing double figure numbers for Sea King or a Caracal or whatever we end up choosing so i think that we should decide carefully and buy any one kind for Navy since they number will be around 8 - 10. Caracal offers a major advantage over Z9C in terms of range and we can even chose to operate a few from land.Sea King can also be the choice.
> 
> The requirement for air force is again of limited numbers so it will be best if that can be paired with someone, like the AW139 for civilian use!! They also wont have special mission requirements, NAVY HAVE!
> 
> The main thing about standardizing it will come from army. They are the ones who need the biggest fleet and a couple of different chopper can fit in. May be Mi17 and Super Puma (as that will also support Navy's Caracal if that is what they decide to go for).


Agreed. Also, 770 AW139s have been built, and that too for around two to three dozen unique users around the world. Leonardo has an unenviable track record no doubt, but GOP could have done much, much worse by picking up the Lynx or something. I just hope some random service out in nowhere'abad doesn't go and pick up S-70s for policing!

Airbus is nearing a major Caracal contract with Poland, which will see the helicopter in full-scale production over the next few years. There are offsets involved and Poland is hoping to export Caracals as well. A deal here would have the backing of Airbus Helicopters as well as Poland (and Romania in the case of the Super Puma). The AW101 would be Italian, and given that they're blacklisted from India over the next couple of years, there should be no interference issues from Delhi. Also, Algeria is looking to get into the AW101 supply chain business in some shape or form, so - while not much - there's still that multi-party backing we could draw on.

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## Inception-06

Oscar said:


> The issue has to do with various kickback operated influences that will work towards the decision. I do not doubt that the AW-139 is a fine choice as a standardized fit; yet the Puma series has been operated for long so the flight characteristics are well known as knowledge.
> 
> What should be done is to stick with the Mi-17 as the backbone for the Army, Puma's for high alt, 412 as the utility and the Squirrels for light observation.
> 
> The Navy needs something that can operate out of the F-22Ps and the Z-9 is the right fit.



So thats what I think since years and weeks after reading that we are now buying also a italien type helicopter. Pakistan Forces have now to maintain more than 15 Types of Helicopters, a maintenance nightmare ! Only idiots will support this new Helicopter deal with italia !


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> So thast what I think since years and weeks after reading that we are no buying also a italien type helicopter. Pakistan Forces have now to maintain more than 15 Types of Helicopters, that is a nightmare ! Only idiots will support this this new Helicopter deal with italia !



Italy is a strong source for western equipment, don't knock it.

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## Arsalan

Thunder.Storm said:


> Pakistan new AW 139 helicopter.



Are you sure this is not a PS fake? 

The units were reportedly for PAF and not army plus the delivery was scheduled for 2017. I wont take this pic too seriously


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## Thunder.Storm

Arsalan said:


> Are you sure this is not a PS fake?
> 
> The units were reportedly for PAF and not army plus the delivery was scheduled for 2017. I wont take this pic too seriously


no its confirmed for source check 
http://quwa.org/2016/10/03/newly-ordered-aw139-helicopters-appear-pakistan-army/

http://www.vvv.dgualdo.it/31707/16062-fdn-1601.htm

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Are you sure this is not a PS fake?
> 
> The units were reportedly for PAF and not army plus the delivery was scheduled for 2017. I wont take this pic too seriously


It's real. I was told 2 units are for the Army, probable that the other 2 are for the PAF.

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## hassan1



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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's real. I was told 2 units are for the Army, probable that the other 2 are for the PAF.


All in the same SAR role?


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## Sulman Badshah

Arsalan said:


> Are you sure this is not a PS fake?
> 
> The units were reportedly for PAF and not army plus the delivery was scheduled for 2017. I wont take this pic too seriously


They are in VVIP config .. 2 of them

SAR , Transport and EMS AW 139 will start to come in 2017

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## Incog_nito

Correct me. PN is acquring:
40+ JF-17 Block-II
XX JF-17 Block-III

Any chances of more P-3Cs coming from other countries or US?


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## khanasifm

Why would pn buy jf if all paf sqn at Karachi 7,8,22 and in the south including 23 and 17 will eventually be replaced by jf ?? No 2 has already converted to jf


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## Rashid Mahmood

Oxair Online said:


> Correct me. PN is acquring:
> 40+ JF-17 Block-II
> XX JF-17 Block-III
> 
> Any chances of more P-3Cs coming from other countries or US?



No, 
PN is not acquiring any of the above.

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## monitor

Rashid Mahmood said:


> No,
> PN is not acquiring any of the above.



Then which fighter are going to take to role of mirage ? aren't we hear lot of rumors about PN interest in JF-17 ?


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## Hassan Guy

monitor said:


> Then which fighter are going to take to role of mirage ? aren't we hear lot of rumors about PN interest in JF-17 ?


A naval variant of a fighter acquired by the Air Force.

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## Dazzler

Two ship jf-17s lurking towards the Arabian sea...


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## Army research

Dazzler said:


> Two ship jf-17s lurking towards the Arabian sea...


?


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## Rashid Mahmood

monitor said:


> Then which fighter are going to take to role of mirage ? aren't we hear lot of rumors about PN interest in JF-17 ?



JF-17 will replace the Mirages.
There are no rumours of PN interest in JF-17.

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## Incog_nito

PN has ordered 40+ JF-17 Block-II earlier this year....


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## Dazzler

Rashid Mahmood said:


> JF-17 will replace the Mirages.
> There are no rumours of PN interest in JF-17.



If this does not satisfy their appetite, nothing will.

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## Army research

Dazzler said:


> If this does not satisfy their appetite, nothing will.


C802?

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## Dazzler

Army research said:


> C802?



C-802AK with slightly more range as compared to the C-802.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Dazzler said:


> If this does not satisfy their appetite, nothing will.




Good enough...

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> Are you sure this is not a PS fake?
> 
> The units were reportedly for PAF and not army plus the delivery was scheduled for 2017. I wont take this pic too seriously


Well you could call up Leonardo and ask them, on 27/08/2016 who did they deliver MSN31707 to?

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Well you could call up Leonardo and ask them, on 27/08/2016 who did they deliver MSN31707 to?


No need, already received the news. 
The post you are quoting is some 6 weeks old. Plenty of time to correct oneself. 

Furthermore, if you look at the post and read it again you will see that it was a question and not a statement. Peace!

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> No need, already received the news.
> The post you are quoting is some 6 weeks old. Plenty of time to correct oneself.
> 
> Furthermore, if you look at the post and read it again you will see that it was a question and not a statement. Peace!


Hopefully all three services will induct it in decent numbers. Arguably it's one the best SAR platforms out there.

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## Indus Falcon

Dazzler said:


> C-802AK with slightly more range as compared to the C-802.


Sensors have been upgraded as well.

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## CHI RULES

Is CM-400AKG operational with JF17 or not?


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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> Is CM-400AKG operational with JF17 or not?



Under testing at masroor


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## fatman17

Delivered

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Hopefully all three services will induct it in decent numbers. Arguably it's one the best SAR platforms out there.


Lets hope so.
However dont you think it is a bit on the expensive side? I mean, aren't there better and lower prices options that could be looked into?



CHI RULES said:


> Is CM-400AKG operational with JF17 or not?


Integration/testing underway.


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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> Lets hope so.
> However dont you think it is a bit on the expensive side? I mean, aren't there better and lower prices options that could be looked into?



Well the figure quoted is gross, we don't know the net figure. The gross figure could include a lot of things, from spares, training, maintenance etc.

There are other platforms, but this is a mature and reliable one.


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## khanasifm

Pn and paf are not usn and usaf, pn need to focus on surface ships and subs and asw and ashw, with 900 mile coast and a fleet of 30 plus heli (sk, z9 and alloutes)and asw and ashw aircraft (p3, fokers, bn2 and atr72) pn is fine as far as airpower is concerned
Paf after replacing all older ac with jf will have more then enough capably for offensive support for pn , there is no need for raising pn af


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## fatman17

AC-352 is now equipped with domestic produced WZ-16 turboshaft. It's probably going to be the most advanced helicopter of its class. It has a lot of military potential in the role of utility or naval helicopters. I think that in the long run, it will be a good replacement for Z-9C.

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## fatman17

AC352 ASW

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## Windjammer

PN Seakings in Garras. UK.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> PN Seakings in Garras. UK.
> 
> View attachment 383128



what is the reason?


----------



## fatman17



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## Advocate Pakistan

How does Sea King weigh against AW101 or the NH90. Anybody?


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 384214
> View attachment 384215
> View attachment 384216
> View attachment 384217



Test range was 450 km, that does not means its max range is 450 km, official statement did not disclose max range which could be more than 450km

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## fatman17

Zohaib Advocate said:


> How does Sea King weigh against AW101 or the NH90. Anybody?


Do AW101 and NH90 have ASW versions if they do then Seaking is probably inferior.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Windjammer said:


> PN Seakings in Garras. UK.
> 
> View attachment 383128



This is an old picture, when they were being delivered to the PN.



Zohaib Advocate said:


> How does Sea King weigh against AW101 or the NH90. Anybody?



1. SH-60
2. AW101 or EH101
3. NH 90



SH60





AW101






NH90

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## Rocky rock

Rashid Mahmood said:


> This is an old picture, when they were being delivered to the PN.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. SH-60
> 2. AW101 or EH101
> 3. NH 90
> 
> 
> 
> SH60
> View attachment 384513
> 
> 
> AW101
> View attachment 384514
> 
> 
> 
> NH90
> View attachment 384516



*NH-90 is such a beauty. *

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## Kat

fatman17 said:


> Do AW101 and NH90 have ASW versions if they do then Seaking is probably inferior.



They both do and yes, the Sea King is inferior. We (Norway) are replacing our Sea Kings (and Westland Lynx) with the AW101 and NH90.













Rashid Mahmood said:


> 1. SH-60
> 2. AW101 or EH101
> 3. NH 90



Mmm, maybe for US models. But export models of the S-70B are downgraded. We trialed the SH-60 (not the export model, but the one the USN uses) but favored the NH90 and AW101 instead.











The NH90 is fully digital, while the Sea King (see below) still uses largely analogue displays and controls.





The knock against the NH90 isn't in its capabilities, but its cost and complicated development history (maintenance problems, slipping deadlines, delays, etc.).



Zohaib Advocate said:


> How does Sea King weigh against AW101 or the NH90. Anybody?



The Sea King is serviceable, but old and lacking the modern capabilities or technologies the NH90 and AW101 have.
















They're nice helicopters, just not on par with the AW101 or NH90.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Kat said:


> Mmm, maybe for US models. But export models of the S-70B are downgraded. We trialed the SH-60 (not the export model, but the one the USN uses) but favored the NH90 and AW101 instead.



I agree. 
Export models always are downgraded.


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## monitor

Which helicopter could replace aging sea king helicopter? Any Chinese options or western option like AW101 NH-90 ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

monitor said:


> Which helicopter could replace aging sea king helicopter? Any Chinese options or western option like AW101 NH-90 ?


Since there are a small number of Sea Kings needing replacement, the PN could look at Western platforms such as the AW101. Yes, each AW101 is expensive, but for 4-6 helicopters, the total cost would be a manageable $300-400 million for the aircraft and a standard maintenance, logistics and training package. Split the payment across 7-10 years, it can be done. 

The AW101 would be a good option considering the decent ties with Italy and the fact that the AW101 is large enough to serve as a troop transport too (for Marines and SSGN).

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## Advocate Pakistan

I agree, probably we should start working out the plans. Since our neighbour has a tendency to make deals with every supplier to deny Pakistan access to systems (by inclusion of article of non provision to Pakistan of the same system)
They may take up both non-American options. On the other hand, the American option, we all know they have a strong lobbying there.
I remember I saw a video of Rafale back in 2004,5 and wished to see it in PAF colours. But we were going for block 52s.


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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since there are a small number of Sea Kings needing replacement, the PN could look at Western platforms such as the AW101. Yes, each AW101 is expensive, but for 4-6 helicopters, the total cost would be a manageable $300-400 million for the aircraft and a standard maintenance, logistics and training package. Split the payment across 7-10 years, it can be done.
> 
> The AW101 would be a good option considering the decent ties with Italy and the fact that the AW101 is large enough to serve as a troop transport too (for Marines and SSGN).


Leonardo is in the middle of developing it's AW139 maritime / ASW helicopter. by the time PN is ready to replace it's SeaKings, this platform would be ready and the best bet for a western platform for the PN

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Leonardo is in the middle of developing it's AW139 maritime / ASW helicopter. by the time PN is ready to replace it's SeaKings, this platform would be ready and the best bet for a western platform for the PN


I'm not sure about the AW139, but there is a AW149 - enlarged variant - that will be anti-submarine warfare and anti-ship warfare capable. Worth noting that it's powered by the GE CT7, the civil version of the T700 which powers the AH-1Z. But the T700 also powers the S-70 and is an option for the AW101.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=521896841268097

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## Cornered Tiger

In 2011, PN requested SH-60F (equipped with dipping sonar) via EDA to replace The Seakings, BUT later the request was cancelled in 2012. Since Turkey is now producing these, and have export rights too. PN can be re-interested in The SeaHawks.


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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not sure about the AW139, but there is a AW149 - enlarged variant - that will be anti-submarine warfare and anti-ship warfare capable. Worth noting that it's powered by the GE CT7, the civil version of the T700 which powers the AH-1Z. But the T700 also powers the S-70 and is an option for the AW101.


Too expensive and congress may not approve.

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## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> In 2011, PN requested SH-60F (equipped with dipping sonar) via EDA to replace The Seakings, BUT later the request was cancelled in 2012. Since Turkey is now producing these, and have export rights too. PN can be re-interested in The SeaHawks.


Those EDA helos were very old, and if we go the turkish route, will still require a US NOC.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Too expensive and congress may not approve.


Could buy them from Turkey (via TAI's production line).


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## Readerdefence

JH 7in action, out over SCS....

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Could buy them from Turkey (via TAI's production line).


If it has major components, then NOC still required.

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## monitor

Why not AW-159 wildcat?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> If it has major components, then NOC still required.


From the U.S. DoD and State Department, not Congress. It's much easier to get approval from DoD and the State Department than Congress, and going through TAI makes Congress a non-factor. Besides, Turkey also got export licenses with the Black Hawk ToT and is tasked with marketing the platform to countries with whom the U.S. doesn't have the best ties.



> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), the prime contractor, said all contracts between Turkey’s procurement agency, the Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM), TAI, Sikorsky and other subcontractors have been signed and have taken effect. TAI said the contracts also include export licenses.


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...elicopter-turkey-sikorsky-tai-tusas/85549586/



> Katzen says Ankara’s development of an exportable T-70 derivative of the Black Hawk is not viewed as a competitive threat to PZL Mielec, as Turkish Aerospace Industries is expected to gain access to new markets for the rotorcraft, potentially to include Afghanistan, Pakistan and nations in North Africa. Initial aircraft for the Turkish programme will be produced in Mielec.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pzl-mielec-details-s-70i-sales-targets-434648/



monitor said:


> Why not AW-159 wildcat?


The AW159 is derived from the Lynx, and the PN actually mothballed (sold) its Lynx helicopters a few years ago because of the UK's unreliability in providing spare parts.

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## fatman17

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan International Airlines PIA Engineers has achieved a milestone success in the engineering and maintenance of the foreign aircrafts in Pakistan.

Pakistan International Airline’s engineering and maintenance division successfully carried out a major maintenance check ‘1-C’ of Pakistan Navy’s ATR 72 aircraft at Islamabad airport.

The check was completed with the extensive expertise of PIAengineers who worked with dedication to perform this C Check within the projected time and the aircraft rolled out with no defects.






PIA engineering is currently performing all major overhaul checks of Pakistan Navy’s entire ATR fleet.

PIA engineering aims to expand its maintenance capabilities which will allow it to cater to all aircraft models operating in Pakistan and become a leading maintenance services provider in the country as well as the entire region.

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## fatman17

I'm not sure if the above news is good or bad for PN.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> I'm not sure if the above news is good or bad for PN.



As pia had been operator of atrs for long time that have existing capability to service atrs so reuse it as long as its work can be certified by Oem , no need to create another repair shop /depot at pn


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> As pia had been operator of atrs for long time that have existing capability to service atrs so reuse it as long as its work can be certified by Oem , no need to create another repair shop /depot at pn


You're missing my point. PIA dosnt have a steller maintenance record of their ATRs. Already one fatal crash due to PIA maintenance failure.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Navy receives Sea King helicopters






KARACHI: The Pakistan Navy has received seven Sea King helicopters that were purchased from the United Kingdom, according to a statement issued on Friday.

The helicopters were formally handed over to Pakistan Navy on 24 May 2017, in a ceremony attended by Syed Ibne Abbas, Pakistan High Commissioner to the UK.

Christopher Bob Richardson represented the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the formal handing over ceremony.

Contract for purchase of seven (07) helicopters was signed last year. A separate contract was signed with M/s Vector Aerospace for maintenance of the aircraft before being shipped to Pakistan later this year.

The High Commissioner lauded the historic relationship between the Armed Forces of Pakistan and the United Kingdom and the role played by the UK in capacity building of Pakistan Armed Forces both in terms of equipment support and training. 

He thanked the representatives of the UK MoD, Leonardo and M/s Vector Aerospace for their support in making this project a success and hoped that the cooperation between the two Armed Forces would continue to grow in future.

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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Navy receives Sea King helicopters
> 
> View attachment 399506
> 
> 
> KARACHI: The Pakistan Navy has received seven Sea King helicopters that were purchased from the United Kingdom, according to a statement issued on Friday.
> 
> The helicopters were formally handed over to Pakistan Navy on 24 May 2017, in a ceremony attended by Syed Ibne Abbas, Pakistan High Commissioner to the UK.
> 
> Christopher Bob Richardson represented the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the formal handing over ceremony.
> 
> Contract for purchase of seven (07) helicopters was signed last year. A separate contract was signed with M/s Vector Aerospace for maintenance of the aircraft before being shipped to Pakistan later this year.
> 
> The High Commissioner lauded the historic relationship between the Armed Forces of Pakistan and the United Kingdom and the role played by the UK in capacity building of Pakistan Armed Forces both in terms of equipment support and training.
> 
> He thanked the representatives of the UK MoD, Leonardo and M/s Vector Aerospace for their support in making this project a success and hoped that the cooperation between the two Armed Forces would continue to grow in future.



The photos at the hand-over ceremony show a Sea King Mk.HC4+ in the background. That is the assault/troop carrying version used to support the Royal Marines.

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## khanasifm

https://www.copybook.com/fact-files/westland-sea-king-hc4-commando-helicopter


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## Divergent

Pakistan Navy ooooo I've never posted in this section before


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## The Diplomat

Can some one please tell me the total amount of Naval aircraft in PN and what the fleet consists off?


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## Rocky rock

Lahore_PAF said:


> Can some one please tell me the total amount of Naval aircraft in PN and what the fleet consists off?


60 Aircrafts 
28 Helos

Rest you can read here. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm

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## Army research

Rocky rock said:


> 60 Aircrafts
> 28 Helos
> 
> Rest you can read here.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm


Bhai that is not a legit source


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## Rocky rock

Army research said:


> Bhai that is not a legit source


Ok then here is your legit source.

https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/air_arm.html

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## Army research

Rocky rock said:


> Ok then here is your legit source.
> 
> https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/air_arm.html


I'm talking about the number of crafts


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## Rocky rock

Army research said:


> I'm talking about the number of crafts


Here you see the whole inventory with Squadron numbers.

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## khanasifm

6-8 p3 5-8 fokers 3-5 atr 1 additional Ac for ew/transport add 3 PMsa bn2 as well what am I Missing ? Fixed wing?

Atlantic are retired now and atr fleet being beefed up and upgraded to replace fokers


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## khanasifm

Curious navy never bought mashaq even for comm like af and p.a. ?? Pn instructor pilot do graduate From paf on mashaq ??


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## fatman17

Lahore_PAF said:


> Can some one please tell me the total amount of Naval aircraft in PN and what the fleet consists off?


It's top secret

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## Tank131

It would be interesting to see either navy or more likely PMSA to adopt heli-drones like CH-500 or or Sky Saker H-300 on board their ships. These would give good over the horizon reach for PMSA OPV's to attack other vessels (primarily anti-piracy and smuggling roles) with ATG Missiles like Barq/AR-1/HJ-10. They are small and could easily be stored in the hangars with larger Search and Rescue choppers. I think the both the 600T and 1500T ships from China would benefit from these.

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## Abdullah Rahat

*Total Naval Strength: 197
Total Aircraft Carrier Strength: 0
Total Frigate Warship Strength: 10
Total Destroyer Warship Strength: 0
Total Corvette Warship Strenght: 0
Submarine Strenght: 8
Patrol fleet: 17*


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## fatman17

Abdullah Rahat said:


> *Total Naval Strength: 197
> Total Aircraft Carrier Strength: 0
> Total Frigate Warship Strength: 10
> Total Destroyer Warship Strength: 0
> Total Corvette Warship Strenght: 0
> Submarine Strenght: 8
> Patrol fleet: 17*


Now we have to kill you mate.


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## Penguin

Army research said:


> Bhai that is not a legit source


If well documented with source quotes, if streated with a degree of scepticism and when tirangulated with other sources, there is no problem with a wiki page per se.



Rocky rock said:


> 60 Aircrafts
> 28 Helos
> 
> Rest you can read here.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm


This suggests at most 54 aircraft, including 35 helicopters. I.e. please compare listing and total given.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm#Aircraft_inventory

Sipri indicates, since 1970, Pakistan has received:
*From China: *
(6) AS565S Panther ASW helicopter 2005 2009-2010 (6) Z-9EC version
*From France: *
3 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1974 1975-1976 3 Second-hand but modernized before delivery
1 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1988 1988 1 Second-hand but modernized before delivery
8 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2008 (8) Second-hand; SA-319B version
2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (2013) 2014 2 Second-hand
*From Malta: *
1 ATR-72 Transport aircraft 2015 2015 1 Second-hand; ATR-72-500 version
*From Netherlands: *
4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1994) 1995 4 Second-hand
*From New Zealand: *
1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft 1991 1992 1 Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UK; modernized in UK before delivery; incl for MP
1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft (1994) 1994 1 Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UK company; modernized in UK before delivery; incl for MP
*From UAE:*
4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1987) 1987 4 Second-hand; aid
*From UK:*
6 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter (1973) 1974 (6) Sea King Mk-45 version
1 Sea King HAR-3 Transport helicopter 1989 1989 1 Second-hand; Sea King HAS-5 ASW version modified to Sea King Mk-45A before delivery (ASW equipment removed)
1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft (1992) 1993 1 For coast guard
1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft 1994 1994 1 $1.4 m deal; for coast guard
3 Lynx ASW helicopter 1994 1994 3 Second-hand; Lynx HAS-3 version; option on 3 more
2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2008 2 Second-hand; SA-319B version
*From US:*
3 P-3C Orion Update-2.5 ASW aircraft 1988 1996-1997 3 $139 m deal; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995; P-3C Orion Update-2.75 version
7 P-3CUP Orion ASW aircraft 2005 2007-2012 7 Second-hand P-3C rebuilt to P-3CUP (paid with $970 m US 'SAP' aid); first 2 delivered without complete systems (to be installed later)

In terms of deliveries, that makes:
20 SA-316B Alouette
7 Westland Sea King (6 HAS-1 and 1 HAR-3)
3 Westland Lynx HAS-3
6 Harbin Z-9EC
4 Brequet Atlantique
1 ATR-72
2 Fokker F-27 Friendship
2 BN-2 Maritime Defender
10 P3C

Clearly, this list is not complete (e.g. Z-9, Sea King, Fokker, ATR) and includes A/C now retired (some Alouette, Lynx, Atlantique) but total delivered according to Sipri is 65, including 36 helicopters.

http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

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## sidra75

i like Pakistan Navy


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Newly acquired Pakistan Navy Sea Kings to fly in September

Alan Warnes, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

05 July 2017

Three of the seven former UK military Sea King helicopters recently acquired by the Pakistan Navy (PN) are expected to be flying again in early September. The platforms, which were officially handed over on 24 May, are currently being refurbished by the UK-based Vector Aerospace Corporation.

One of two Sea King HC4 helicopters, which along with a Sea King HAR3, is being refurbished by UK-based Vector Aerospace for the PN. (Alan Warnes)

The three platforms include a Royal Air Force Westland (now Leonardo Helicopters) Sea King HAR3A and two Royal Marine HC4 'Junglies'.

Vector Aerospace Corporation's Steve Tamblyn, who is the Sea King project manager, told Jane's : "The first helicopter will make its first flight in mid-August, followed by the second one five days later, and the third one five days after that.

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## khanasifm

So one in sar mode and renaming 2 for marines out of 7 , 4 being used for ??? Spares or what ? 6 existing one were mostly Anti sub /ship role as well as sar at sea for long range compared to other heli , also sea king are operational from pn tankers


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> So one in sar mode and renaming 2 for marines out of 7 , 4 being used for ??? Spares or what ? 6 existing one were mostly Anti sub /ship role as well as sar at sea for long range compared to other heli , also sea king are operational from pn tankers


Spares for Sea kings are readily available in the market. All 7 will be refurbished and put to use to patrol the makran coast. remember PN assets are now spread along the makran coast.

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## khanasifm

http://www.vectoraerospace.com/Medi...-King-helicopter-refurbishment-programme.aspx


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## Incog_nito

PN needs to ask if US will allow them to buy some more P-3C (about 3 of them) but fitted with Hawkeye-2000.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> PN needs to ask if US will allow them to buy some more P-3C (about 3 of them) but fitted with Hawkeye-2000.


Nope. The PAF's ZDK03 AEW&C are in place to help the PN instead.

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## Viking 63

No need to ask usa for anything.


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## fatman17

Oxair Online said:


> PN needs to ask if US will allow them to buy some more P-3C (about 3 of them) but fitted with Hawkeye-2000.


Literally too late now.


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## umair86pk

Does anyone has info on what sort of upgrades were carried out on PN Sea Kings back in the 2007-08?


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## Incog_nito

PN has also placed an order for 40 JF-17s Block-IIs.


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## Army research

Oxair Online said:


> PN has also placed an order for 40 JF-17s Block-IIs.


Source ?


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Literally too late now.


i doubt usa will agree either
poor politics from our side
we cant even get much needed used f16s from EDA


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## khanasifm

Army research said:


> Source ?



There was news in local newspaper long time ago but I doubt someone from pn or PAC Confirmed anything so for now just hoha ..


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> There was news in local newspaper long time ago but I doubt someone from pn or PAC Confirmed anything so for now just hoha ..


There was a request to replace the destroyed aircraft, but US did not agree.


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> i doubt usa will agree either
> poor politics from our side
> we cant even get much needed used f16s from EDA


We also may not be a Major Non NATO ally soon

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> We also may not be a Major Non NATO ally soon


This was always on the cards. A condom once used is best disposed off. We did not understand the significance of this timely window and now things will be back to normal. Unless things get tough for uncle Sam in Afghanistan. This time I think we should let them be.
A

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> This was always on the cards. A condom once used is best disposed off. We did not understand the significance of this timely window and now things will be back to normal. Unless things get tough for uncle Sam in Afghanistan. This time I think we should let them be.
> A


100% Agreed!
One of those many missed opportunities! 
We didn't cashed in, we didn't build a relation either that would run along even when their interests were over. 

Anyway, whats gone is gone and we should at least try to learn from it and do not repeat the same mistakes that we have been repeating over and over and over again.

Things are pretty rough for US and its allies in Afghanistan but i am not sure if they are bothered anymore. They have a puppet regime and they have to deal with the mess created in the country. Even if Americans decide on a more active role (which would be unlike them) Pakistan should keep its distance.


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## khail007

There are rumours that, rather than military reinforcement, contractors will be deployed in Afghanistan.
In such case, what will be the strategy, Pakistan going to adopt?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Contractors means CIA which is not good at all for us


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## khanasifm

ziaulislam said:


> i doubt usa will agree either
> poor politics from our side
> we cant even get much needed used f16s from EDA



It was US tax payer paying for it app 900 million for p3s it's not there responsibility to find replacements anyway since independence hooked on aid, time to move on stop voting into office crooks and families and start paying taxes and becomes an economic power nothing can stop a country which is educated, eco power and can buy anything they want

This is the time to unite and next year elect right folks 

Planes, guns, tanks etc are only tools but once reformed nation than real change will make pak a power

Lastly get rid of religion being used to divide as well as as a political means to stay / being in. Power

Blind faith does not mean anything knowledge is key [emoji360]

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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> It was US tax payer paying for it app 900 million for p3s it's not there responsibility to find replacements anyway since independence hooked on aid, time to move on stop voting into office crooks and families and start paying taxes and becomes an economic power nothing can stop a country which is educated, eco power and can buy anything they want
> 
> This is the time to unite and next year elect right folks
> 
> Planes, guns, tanks etc are only tools but once reformed nation than real change will make pak a power
> 
> Lastly get rid of religion being used to divide as well as as a political means to stay / being in. Power
> 
> Blind faith does not mean anything knowledge is key [emoji360]



The most important thing is exports. Need to ramp up exports if we want the armed forces to be strong and powerful. Also need to safeguard our national interests, our image, and our goodwill on international fora through a well thought foreign policy.

Religion is a sensitive issue because:

1. Irreligious forces are trying to undermine our religious identity, and slowly shape the mindset of the population to be pro-American/Western. If a large enough part of the population is successfully groomed, it will turn against the armed forces. A leading example of such forces is Dawn.

2. In the garb of religious harmony, the very roots of Islam are attacked to pass non-Muslim sects as being Muslim. This is a malicious attempt to change the very character and philosophy of Islam. Again, if given complete freedom, it will only lead to proliferation of Western identity, culture, and mindset.

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## Windjammer

*
Some of the PN rotary wings now seem to support an overall grey colour scheme. 
*

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> *Some of the PN rotary wings now seem to support an overall grey colour scheme.
> *




Looks better to me actually !

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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Contractors means CIA which is not good at all for us



Hi,

Contractors are not the agency---they are private security---they don't come under vienna convention ( correct me if I am wrong ) and they are ruthless and brutal.


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## fatman17

Rare picture of MSA Defender aircraft

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## Penguin

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Contractors are not the agency---they are private security---they don't come under vienna convention ( correct me if I am wrong ) and they are ruthless and brutal.


Or, as we used to call them, MERCENARIES. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary

"Contractors" makes it sound as if it is some perfectly normal, respectable business enterprise.

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## HRK




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## Dazzler

So that's what I saw at Faisal/Mehran a while ago, two grey colored seakings..

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

Pakistan Navy test-fires anti-ship missile from Sea King helo

Gabriel Dominguez - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

27 September 2017






The PN successfully test-fired what appears to have been an Exocet AM39 ASM from one of its Sea King helicopters on 23 September. Source: Pakistan Navy

The Pakistan Navy (PN) successfully test-fired an anti-ship missile (ASM) from one of its Sea King helicopters on 23 September. The missile “hit the intended target with pinpoint accuracy, reaffirming [the] weapon’s lethality and the offensive punch of the PN fleet”, said the service in a statement.

The live-fire test, which took place in the Arabian Sea, was part of a series of exercises conducted by the PN in the area.

The statement did not provide further details about the missile, but images of the test-firing show the helicopter releasing what appears to have been an MBDA Exocet AM39 radar-guided ASM, which is known to be in service with the PN. However, it is unclear which variant of the missile was fired.

The event took place approximately four months after the PN received seven surplus Sea King platforms from the United Kingdom. The service acquired the helicopters under an intergovernmental contract signed in 2016 that envisages four of the aircraft being used for spares.

Jane’s reported in July that two HC4s had already been completely stripped of parts, while the other two platforms – an HC4 and an HAR 3A that would also be used for spares – would be kept intact for shipment to Karachi, Pakistan.

The remaining three helicopters were expected to be flying again in early September. The platforms include a Royal Air Force Westland (now Leonardo Helicopters) Sea King HAR3A and two Royal Marine HC4 ‘Junglies’. The official induction ceremony is expected to take place at Pakistan Naval Station (PNS) Mehran in early December.

The PN’s 111 Squadron at PNS Mehran already operates six Westland Sea King Mk45/45As in service since 1976. In recent years, the legacy aircraft have been upgraded with Seaspray 5300 radars to significantly increase their 
Capability.

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## Windjammer

*PN Seaking in new color scheme.




*

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *PN Seaking in new color scheme.
> 
> View attachment 431183
> *


The paint wallas are having a field day with our military.

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## Advocate Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> The paint wallas are having a field day with our military.



I really like the new colour scheme. It mixes up with the tarmac well.


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## blinder

Last weekend, 5 Sea Kings were moved by road to Folkestone harbour in the UK, destination Belgium.
From there they are/were shipped to Pakistan. So I would expect an inception ceremony later this month, maybe early next year.

Three have large white codes, as follows:
(4517) 17 (former Sea King HAR3A+ ZH544, yellow c/s), 
(4518) 18 (former Sea King HC4+ ZF117 dark green c/s), and 
(4519) 19 (former Sea King HC4+ ZG821, dark green c/s). 
As the last original Sea King Mk45A was coded 16, this seems logical.

The yellow one marked '17' is illustrated here: http://warnesysworld.com/first-two-new-pakistan-navy-sea-kings-now-flying/





_(flying from Lee-on-Solent (c) Terry Coombs)




_
(_hovering at Lee-on-Solent, (c) Richard Davies_)

The two other airframes will be used for spares as well as two more that remain in the UK.

More work for the painters to get all these airframes in proper Naval grey colours

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## ghazi52

All five routed around the M25 early on December 8 before arriving at Folkestone for onward shipment. The remaining two airframes acquired, HC4s ZA296 and ZA299, were stripped for spares at Fleetlands and only the components recovered from them are being shipped to Pakistan. A team of Vector Aerospace and Heli Operations personnel will follow the helicopters to Pakistan to support re-assembly and acceptance of them in January 2018.

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## Thorough Pro

They don't operate in environment matching tarmac colour scheme.



Advocate Pakistan said:


> I really like the new colour scheme. It mixes up with the tarmac well.


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## Advocate Pakistan

Meanwhile the Qataris are ordering NH90 in large numbers, perhaps to replace their 12 Sea Kings. PN can also look into them if the Qataris are willing to sell them at prices affordable to us.

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## niaz

How many Sea Kings do we need? It is too large to land on smaller vessels, in its search & rescue role and as a platform for launching anti-ship missiles, 9 Sea Kings should be sufficient. 

PN needs lighter helicopters which can land on smaller size vessels to replace the aging Alouettes.

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## Human One

niaz said:


> How many Sea Kings do we need? It is too large to land on smaller vessels, in its search & rescue role and as a platform for launching anti-ship missiles, 9 Sea Kings should be sufficient.
> 
> PN needs lighter helicopters which can land on smaller size vessels to replace the aging Alouettes.



Sea Kings would be useful for missiles, as you mentioned. Not only that, they can be used with supply ships in this role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_replenishment Looking at the photos above, most of the helicopters seem to be ex-Royal Navy examples used in the Commando Sea role which means, they would be useful for amphibious and land-based operations.


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## Windjammer



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## Rashid Mahmood

niaz said:


> How many Sea Kings do we need? It is too large to land on smaller vessels, in its search & rescue role and as a platform for launching anti-ship missiles, 9 Sea Kings should be sufficient.
> 
> PN needs lighter helicopters which can land on smaller size vessels to replace the aging Alouettes.



PN has all Sea Kings (6) rigged for ASW & ASV + SAR.
3 additional SKs are rigged for SAR

QEAF SKs are only rigged for ASV & SAR.

So if we get QEAF SKs (hypothetical), the tasking could be as:

6 x ASW 
6 X ASV
6 X SAR
3 X Transport + Ferry

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## Rashid Mahmood

Me during an SAR mission,

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## TOPGUN

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Me during an SAR mission,
> 
> View attachment 448328



Mr. Rashid what was your task in the crew ? if you don't mind me asking honored to have you here as always. My father also served in the PN for a few years before going to PNSC.

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## Rashid Mahmood

TOPGUN said:


> Mr. Rashid what was your task in the crew ? if you don't mind me asking honored to have you here as always. My father also served in the PN for a few years before going to PNSC.



I was the Tactical Warfare Officer (TACCO / OBSERVER)
SAR specialist was the secondary role, like in the above picture handling the rescue hoist.

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## Areesh

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I was the Tactical Warfare Officer (TACCO / OBSERVER)
> SAR specialist was the secondary role, like in the above picture handling the rescue hoist.



Thanks for your services Sir jee

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> It was US tax payer paying for it app 900 million for p3s it's not there responsibility to find replacements anyway since independence hooked on aid, time to move on stop voting into office crooks and families and start paying taxes and becomes an economic power nothing can stop a country which is educated, eco power and can buy anything they want
> 
> This is the time to unite and next year elect right folks
> 
> Planes, guns, tanks etc are only tools but once reformed nation than real change will make pak a power
> 
> Lastly get rid of religion being used to divide as well as as a political means to stay / being in. Power
> 
> Blind faith does not mean anything knowledge is key [emoji360]


the deficit of PIA is 1/3rd of whole budget of PAF..how ironic
PIA has deficit of 450 million dollars this year with total liabilities now standing at 434 billion rupees
this is now available publically since they made it public company in 2016 instead of privatizing it

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## fatman17

The latest rumor (September 2017) claimed that an improved variant called Z-9E is under development which might carry a bigger anti-ship missile.


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## Rashid Mahmood

fatman17 said:


> The latest rumor (September 2017) claimed that an improved variant called Z-9E is under development which might carry a bigger anti-ship missile.






*Z-9D/9S Dauphin*



The new *Z-9D* anti-ship variant prototype is shown here. Based on *Z-9C*, *Z-9D* was developed to carry up to 4 AShMs under a pair of detachable stub wings against small surface targets. The missile could be the new YJ-9, which may have been evolved from the earlier TL-10B developed by Hongdu. TL-10B is a light, radar-guided anti-ship missile used against smaller FACs and gun boats (<1,000t). Its range is 15km, speed is Mach 0.85 and its warhead weighs 30kg. The helicopter features a new fire-control radar (KLC-3B) with embedded IFF antennas installed in a bigger nose cone and the weapon control officer is seated in the rear cabin. RWR antennas are installed on both sides of the nose and the tail rotor. The helicopter could provide target coordinates to the surface ship via datalink so that the later could launch YJ-83 AShM for over-the-horizon attack. This anti-ship variant has been seen stationed onboard the new Type 056/056A FFGs. Two prototypes (001 & 002) were built. Currently *Z-9D*s are in service with PLAN (S/N 97x6, 98x6, 94x7). At least two *Z-9D*s (*Z-9S*? S/N 370 & 371) have been converted to the SAR role with a nose mounted EO turret and a search light. It also has a hoist installed on the starboard side. Both helicopters are stationed onboard the aircraft carrier Liaoning. Additional *Z-9S*s have been built with emergency buoy launchers under its rear fuselage (S/N 84x0x). The latest rumor (September 2017) claimed that an improved variant called *Z-9E* is under development which might carry a bigger anti-ship missile.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/953355482047107072

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## Blue Marlin

Rashid Mahmood said:


> PN has all Sea Kings (6) rigged for ASW & ASV + SAR.
> 3 additional SKs are rigged for SAR
> 
> QEAF SKs are only rigged for ASV & SAR.
> 
> So if we get QEAF SKs (hypothetical), the tasking could be as:
> 
> 6 x ASW
> 6 X ASV
> 6 X SAR
> 3 X Transport + Ferry


if im not mistaken pakistan has 6 seakings in service with a further 5 purchased and enroute to pakistan from the uk making the total to 11.

Qatar has 12 seakings bringing the total number 23 now obviously some would be cannibalised for parts as was two sea king's purchased from us. reducing the number further to about 18 ish. my end point being i dont think you have factored cannibalising Qatari seakings into your final tally.
below is a link showing Qatari seaking and their s/n's, just for general use, something you may like.
https://www.helis.com/database/model/72/cn?filc=QA


below are 3 of the 5 seakings being sent to pakistan, what purpose will the yellow chopper in the middle serve and what purpose will the outer two serve, iv'e noticed they have adopted the older dark green colour scheme? will some of these be re-purposed to fire exocet missiles?







Pakistan has had these choppers since 1974 which is a great achievement and a testament to British engineering and Pakistani maintenance but how much life is left on these choppers?



Rashid Mahmood said:


> Me during an SAR mission,
> 
> View attachment 448328


Cool stuff


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

That is some high quality paint/cleanup overhaul work on these machines looks brand new






Adding more Sea King is not a bad idea , fairly useful platform both for missions and rescue at sea

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## Advocate Pakistan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> PN has all Sea Kings (6) rigged for ASW & ASV + SAR.
> 3 additional SKs are rigged for SAR
> 
> QEAF SKs are only rigged for ASV & SAR.
> 
> So if we get QEAF SKs (hypothetical), the tasking could be as:
> 
> 6 x ASW
> 6 X ASV
> 6 X SAR
> 3 X Transport + Ferry



So at present the PN Sea Kings are sort of a multi-role platform.
Going by the method you mentioned of assigning different roles to the units of the fleet what benefit would it be to specialise the roles.
I am asking whether it would be more cost effective and efficient in a tactical situation since I believe a multi-role platform is always good for our requirements.
I may be wrong and hence the query.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Thats what I always say in aviation pages that the 3 services should streamline requirements and make a multi-role medium or light helo.


Advocate Pakistan said:


> So at present the PN Sea Kings are sort of a multi-role platform.
> Going by the method you mentioned of assigning different roles to the units of the fleet what benefit would it be to specialise the roles.
> I am asking whether it would be more cost effective and efficient in a tactical situation since I believe a multi-role platform is always good for our requirements.
> I may be wrong and hence the query.


----------



## Advocate Pakistan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Thats what I always say in aviation pages that the 3 services should streamline requirements and make a multi-role medium or light helo.


Agree, we should have atleast two programs one for a 4 ton helicopter and another for around 10 ton helicopter for all the services. The Turkish 10 ton helicopter project seems a good way to jump into the bandwagon.
What's your take on that?

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## Ahmet Pasha

We could certainly do a JV if they dont have any parts that are sanction prone. If the upcoming TAI helo has shared parts with ATAK that will be icing on the cake. It would also help PAC get in game of making helos. We also could market it jointly and make money together. 
From the pictures it does look like a promising design rivaling nh90. We could also go for chinese Black Hawk if it is good enough.

JVs or own indiginous production should be major target especially in aviation, land vehicles and to some extent naval vessels. The small things we can easily source from different nations.


Advocate Pakistan said:


> Agree, we should have atleast two programs one for a 4 ton helicopter and another for around 10 ton helicopter for all the services. The Turkish 10 ton helicopter project seems a good way to jump into the bandwagon.
> What's your take on that?


----------



## Rashid Mahmood

Advocate Pakistan said:


> So at present the PN Sea Kings are sort of a multi-role platform.
> Going by the method you mentioned of assigning different roles to the units of the fleet what benefit would it be to specialise the roles.
> I am asking whether it would be more cost effective and efficient in a tactical situation since I believe a multi-role platform is always good for our requirements.
> I may be wrong and hence the query.



The SK can be configured for ASW or ASV, one role at a time, not simultaneously. 
To change this role some equipment has to be removed and some added. It takes time and a maintenance setup to perform it.

So it would be easy that aircraft are assigned specialized roles, so this change over time isn't required.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The SK can be configured for ASW or ASV, one role at a time, not simultaneously.
> To change this role some equipment has to be removed and some added. It takes time and a maintenance setup to perform it.
> 
> So it would be easy that aircraft are assigned specialized roles, so this change over time isn't required.



Okay, understand your point now. In that case PN should push for the Pakistani government to convince the Qataris.


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## Human One

Blue Marlin said:


> below are 3 of the 5 seakings being sent to pakistan, what purpose will the yellow chopper in the middle serve and what purpose will the outer two serve, iv'e noticed they have adopted the older dark green colour scheme? will some of these be re-purposed to fire exocet missiles?



The search and rescue variants operated by the RAF had yellow colour schemes. See this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sea_King_HAR3_XZ585_at_RIAT_2010_arp.jpg 

The outer two in green are Westland Commandos and are described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King#Commando_and_further_developments

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## Ahmet Pasha

Green ones could potentially be for SSGN.
Or they could simply be repainted.


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## fatman17

Recently acquired refurbished #SeaKingMk45 Helicopters from #UK for #PakistanNavy.
These Sea Kings will be used for Transport, Search & Rescue, Anti ship & Anti Submarine warfare roles.
Out of 7 delivered, 2 will be stripped down for spares. 3 shown in pic are new additions. https://t.co/7bucbjrjIN

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well instead of stripping down the machines , should have asked to aquire licence to make the parts /manufacture parts for the choppers in Pakistan (Origional Copies under licence)

Certainly a thank you to British engineers who helped with the refurbishment


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## fatman17

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well instead of stripping down the machines , should have asked to aquire licence to make the parts /manufacture parts for the choppers in Pakistan (Origional Copies under licence)
> 
> Certainly a thank you to British engineers who helped with the refurbishment


Production line is closed long time ago.


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## fatman17



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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Ahmet Pasha

Are those new sea kings arriving?


khanasifm said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Advocate Pakistan

khanasifm said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


I counted 4.


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## khanasifm

Yes and the camera was going up and down so it’s total 5, 2 for spares and 3 flyable version


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## Human One

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Green ones could potentially be for SSGN.


Yes and maybe to support the Pakistan Marines as well. Does the PN dedicate helicopters to support them?



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Or they could simply be repainted.


 I doubt it because their struts lack sponsons above the wheels. Other Sea Kings normally have them. This is a feature of the 
*Westland Commando *variants which were operated by the Royal Navy and mainly in green, in support o the Royal Marines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_Helicopter_Force


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## HRK



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## TOPGUN

HRK said:


> View attachment 450817
> View attachment 450818



Any update on them as far as their upgrade for surveillance ?

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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> Any update on them as far as their upgrade for surveillance ?



no ....
@Rashid Mahmood shaib can you plz comment about the update of PN ATR upgrades ....

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> no ....
> @Rashid Mahmood shaib can you plz comment about the update of PN ATR upgrades ....


Upgrade continues in Germany

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Upgrade continues in Germany


I think first one was supposed to come in 2017 ....??

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> I think first one was supposed to come in 2017 ....??


It's 2018 now.

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## Human One

TOPGUN said:


> Any update on them as far as their upgrade for surveillance ?


Are they just for surveillance?


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## blinder

The one in Germany was seen outside the 5th, so work is certainly progressing.

The German 'Flugzeugforum' had this picture, courtesy of *mr.Il76*. It did an engine run.
Lots of hobs and knobs, bells and whistles. So yes, it is modified with some extra surveillance gear

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## Ahmet Pasha

Can these be turned into ASW tplanes to take over P3 Orion role??


blinder said:


> The one in Germany was seen outside the 5th, so work is certainly progressing.
> 
> The German 'Flugzeugforum' had this picture, courtesy of *mr.Il76*. It did an engine run.
> Lots of hobs and knobs, bells and whistles. So yes, it is modified with some extra surveillance gear
> View attachment 452184


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## TOPGUN

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can these be turned into ASW tplanes to take over P3 Orion role??



Why would you want them to take over the P-3 Orion's role? they aren't going anywhere anytime soon !!


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The company modifying the PN's ATR-72s - i.e. Rheinland Air Service - said the aircraft are being modified for ASW:

_Because the aircraft are equipped, above all, with the latest satellite technology to detect submarines. But in an emergency they should also be put in the barriers. Both aircraft have a torpedo launch station. 
_
http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte...hafen-grossauftrag-aus-pakistan-aid-1.5990367​These are also being equipped with the Leonardo SeaSpray 7300 X-band AESA surface surveillance radar.

_The company is known to have beaten off three other rivals in the last leg of the Pakistan Navy bid, they are thought to have included PAL Aerospace, Thales and Leonardo. “Aerodata has been working on the ATR 72MPA for just over a year now, and first flight is expected in October” Stahl added. *“It has maritime surveillance, anti-submarine warfare and also search and rescue capabilities.”*

While Aerodata is based in Braunschweig, the work to integrate the systems and modifications to the airframe is being carried out by Rheinland Air Services in Monchengladbach. The company, well versed with the ATR 72 is working alongside Marshall Aerospace from Cambridge, UK. Aerodata is responsible for the design, the kits and integration.

There are two aircraft contracted and optional for the first two with the first due for delivery in early 2018 and the second in early 2019.

*“It will have a fully missionised system with torpedos and water bombs, it has a typical sensor suite including a Seaspray 7300E radar for long range detection, localisation and classification. * A Star Safire III EO/IR system will provide the short range classification and imaging. We also included some ESM systems [supplied by the customer from Electronica] and long and short range detection of threats, classification and localisation. Along that comes self-protection against infra-red radar or laser threats; there are ELINT components as well. It will be certified as per Pakistan’s standards.”
_
http://warnesysworld.com/pakistan-navy-atr72mpa-fly-october/​

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## Ahmet Pasha

IMO A very good option to have as US uncertainty mounts. @TOPGUN 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The company modifying the PN's ATR-72s - i.e. Rheinland Air Service - said the aircraft are being modified for ASW:
> 
> _Because the aircraft are equipped, above all, with the latest satellite technology to detect submarines. But in an emergency they should also be put in the barriers. Both aircraft have a torpedo launch station.
> _
> http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte...hafen-grossauftrag-aus-pakistan-aid-1.5990367​These are also being equipped with the Leonardo SeaSpray 7300 X-band AESA surface surveillance radar.
> 
> _The company is known to have beaten off three other rivals in the last leg of the Pakistan Navy bid, they are thought to have included PAL Aerospace, Thales and Leonardo. “Aerodata has been working on the ATR 72MPA for just over a year now, and first flight is expected in October” Stahl added. *“It has maritime surveillance, anti-submarine warfare and also search and rescue capabilities.”*
> 
> While Aerodata is based in Braunschweig, the work to integrate the systems and modifications to the airframe is being carried out by Rheinland Air Services in Monchengladbach. The company, well versed with the ATR 72 is working alongside Marshall Aerospace from Cambridge, UK. Aerodata is responsible for the design, the kits and integration.
> 
> There are two aircraft contracted and optional for the first two with the first due for delivery in early 2018 and the second in early 2019.
> 
> *“It will have a fully missionised system with torpedos and water bombs, it has a typical sensor suite including a Seaspray 7300E radar for long range detection, localisation and classification. * A Star Safire III EO/IR system will provide the short range classification and imaging. We also included some ESM systems [supplied by the customer from Electronica] and long and short range detection of threats, classification and localisation. Along that comes self-protection against infra-red radar or laser threats; there are ELINT components as well. It will be certified as per Pakistan’s standards.”
> _
> http://warnesysworld.com/pakistan-navy-atr72mpa-fly-october/​

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## TOPGUN

Ahmet Pasha said:


> IMO A very good option to have as US uncertainty mounts. @TOPGUN



True, but not going to happen per PN.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> IMO A very good option to have as US uncertainty mounts. @TOPGUN





TOPGUN said:


> True, but not going to happen per PN.


The ATR-72MPA can't compensate for the P-3C as the P-3C has much more range and a heavier payload. In fact, even the PN intends to use the ATR-72MPA for primarily ISR and SAR, with ASW being a secondary role. There are hardly any aircraft like the P-3C, hence the replacement market is limited to just two options: Boeing P-8 and Kawasaki P-1. If a country isn't going for any of those two, they're sticking with the P-3C.

Thankfully, the PAF has Project Azm to help it exit the F-16 when the time comes, but it'll be interesting to see how the PN manages the P-3C. As the aircraft ages, it'll only get costlier to maintain and operate, especially with the US being iffy.

This entire big MPA market is up for grabs for whoever comes up with a non-US market. Brazil's Embraer is already thinking about it...

_"You can take out the mission system and fly with cargo, passengers, medevac, etc., so it would be a single fleet with perhaps two aircraft capable of being configured for maritime patrol and five dedicated to air mobility. It is how we can show synergy between both projects, *but at the same time we have a solution that is 100 percent dedicated to maritime patrol with the E190-E2."*_

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...ealand-rfi-for-airlift-surveillance-aircraft/​

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## AMG_12

blinder said:


> The one in Germany was seen outside the 5th, so work is certainly progressing.
> 
> The German 'Flugzeugforum' had this picture, courtesy of *mr.Il76*. It did an engine run.
> Lots of hobs and knobs, bells and whistles. So yes, it is modified with some extra surveillance gear
> View attachment 452184


The bulge under the belly maybe the Seaspray Radar? 
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) is MAD part of the upgrade?


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## khanasifm

I think it has all gizmos that p3 have except mad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector

Unless it’s smaller one like on Helios

Italian did replace French Atlantic’s with atr Witt full suite eve in Turks Have full suite 

With 10 hour patrol time it can be full fledge p3 replacement 

https://www.google.com/search?q=atr...7#imgdii=QS_FTXOTNl3ArM:&imgrc=PzbP0q6KNbJq3M:

http://warnesysworld.com/pakistan-navy-atr72mpa-fly-october/


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## Gryphon

HRK said:


> I think first one was supposed to come in 2017 ....??



Former Navy chief said that "Work on upgrading PN's ATR planes into MPA's in Germany will finish by January 2018."

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/outgoing-pakistan-navy-chief-details-procurement-progress.521967/

_There are two aircraft contracted and optional for the first two with the first due for delivery in early 2018 and the second in early 2019._

http://warnesysworld.com/pakistan-navy-atr72mpa-fly-october/




Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can these be turned into ASW tplanes to take over P3 Orion role??



Those will replace some of the ageing Fokkers in service. Orion's replaced the Breguet Atlantic.

*Breguet Atlantic:* AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile and Mk 46 torpedo.

*P-3C Orion:* AGM-84L Harpoon Block II and Mk 46.

*Fokker F27:* Mk 46.

*ATR-72:* ASW torpedo (possibly Mk 46).

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## Gryphon

Modified Pakistan Navy ATR 72-500 serial number 79 seen at Dusseldorf Monchengladbach Airport on February 5, 2018.

Images credit: Jürgen Coenen











Upgrades include:

Leonardo Seaspray 7300E X-band airborne surveillance radar

Aerodata AG mission system _AeroMission_

Star Safire III EO/IR system

Elettronica [U/I] ESM systems

Self protection equipment
ELINT equipment

Stores pylons, depth charges and torpedoes

High speed real time data links

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## Readerdefence

Hi why not something like this from china in future Y8
Any input from the learned memeber 
Thank you

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## Pathan khan

As Pakistan Navy is procuring new Frigates from China (Type 54) Does it contains any procurement deal of new helicopters too?
Also with the acquisition of Milgem Corvette , Swiftshift OPVs, Damen Opvs and newly acquired 1500 tons MPVs for PMSA Pakistan Navy will need additional helicopters.


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## khanasifm

6 Z9 and alloutes upgraded for anti sub/surf 3-5 out of 8-10 with provide ship borne capability for now

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## Tank131

Readerdefence said:


> View attachment 452754
> 
> Hi why not something like this from china in future Y8
> Any input from the learned memeber
> Thank you



I have stated many times in the past that given its financial constraints, PN should invest in a far more powerful ASW arm centered around tye Y-8GX6. This aircraft has the largest MAD of any aircraft and the length of the MAD is often directly propotional to is capabilities in detecting subs. Also, much like the P-3C, it has the ability to carry missiles. Up to 8 torpedoes or 4-6 AShM could likely be held. 4 air launched CM-400AKG per aircraft would be potentially devesting to IN surface fleet.

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## fatman17

zahra1234 said:


> The Atlantics and the Sea King Mk. 46s are equipped with the AM-39 Exocet for the anti-shipping role. The Lynx HAS.3s acquired from the Royal Navy in 1994 have recently been withdrawn from service, due to various reasons, so it is believed that the naval air arm has lost its capability to use Sea Skua and Mk 46 Lightweight Torpedoes in the anti-submarine role from helicopter platforms.
> http://bsekkarachi.result2018.pk/


The Atlantics have also been withdrawn from service and the lynx buy was a waste of money as no spares are available and operating costs prohibitive. They have been offered for sale but no takers.

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## Cookie Monster

Tank131 said:


> I have stated many times in the past that given its financial constraints, PN should invest in a far more powerful ASW arm centered around tye Y-8GX6. This aircraft has the largest MAD of any aircraft and the length of the MAD is often directly propotional to is capabilities in detecting subs. Also, much like the P-3C, it has the ability to carry missiles. Up to 8 torpedoes or 4-6 AShM could likely be held. 4 air launched CM-400AKG per aircraft would be potentially devesting to IN surface fleet.


Agreed. Since PN can never match IN in terms of number of warships(destroyers, frigates, corvettes, etc.)...PN should take a different route. In case of war IN would understandably try a blockade...so Pak should heavily invest in submarines(the more numerous the better), ASW and MPA assets(like the one u mentioned or PN's modified ATR 72, P3C Orions, etc.), strong naval air arm(preferably twin engine jets for long range), and SAM protected coastal batteries(the longer the range the better). These elements together in a defensive posture and in a net centric environment would devastate IN and its attempts at a blockade.

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## Human One

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can these be turned into ASW tplanes to take over P3 Orion role??



They could be used to supplement the P-3Cs.


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## Windjammer

Pakistan Navy SA-319B Alouette III helicopter lands aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). Personnel assigned to the Pakistan navy destroyer PNS Shahjahan (DDG 186) visited George H.W. Bush for a coordinated professional exchange while the two ships were operating in the vicinity of one another in the Arabian Sea. George H.W. Bush is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility on its first operational deployment conducting maritime security operations and support missions as part of Operations Enduring Freedom and New Dawn.

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## Hassan Guy

@Windjammer nice, man you're always putting out the best posts

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## Armchair-General

Anyone got photos of the Mirage 5 operated by navy for anti ship role.


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## GriffinsRule

Armchair-General said:


> Anyone got photos of the Mirage 5 operated by navy for anti ship role.



All Mirages are operated by the Air Force. Navy does not have any fighter air craft.

Btw, if you want to see their pictures, just google Mirage 5PA3 ... or conversely, any PAF Mirage picture where the serial number is in the 400 range is going to be the Agave radar equipped versions.


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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The ATR-72MPA can't compensate for the P-3C as the P-3C has much more range and a heavier payload. In fact, even the PN intends to use the ATR-72MPA for primarily ISR and SAR, with ASW being a secondary role. There are hardly any aircraft like the P-3C, hence the replacement market is limited to just two options: Boeing P-8 and Kawasaki P-1. If a country isn't going for any of those two, they're sticking with the P-3C.
> 
> Thankfully, the PAF has Project Azm to help it exit the F-16 when the time comes, but it'll be interesting to see how the PN manages the P-3C. As the aircraft ages, it'll only get costlier to maintain and operate, especially with the US being iffy.
> 
> This entire big MPA market is up for grabs for whoever comes up with a non-US market. Brazil's Embraer is already thinking about it...
> 
> _"You can take out the mission system and fly with cargo, passengers, medevac, etc., so it would be a single fleet with perhaps two aircraft capable of being configured for maritime patrol and five dedicated to air mobility. It is how we can show synergy between both projects, *but at the same time we have a solution that is 100 percent dedicated to maritime patrol with the E190-E2."*_
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...ealand-rfi-for-airlift-surveillance-aircraft/​


I would expect that P3C Orions are still going to be around at least another 10 years or so specially with PN.

This I think is perfect timing...in 10 years time, the Comac C919(currently being tested) would have matured and most likely would be acquired in numbers by Chinese airlines for domestic travel purposes. Currently they are aiming to deliver first production C919 in 2021.
Source

In these 10 years China would also make more progress in radar tech and other avionics. This combined with large scale production(in the civil sector) of Comac C919 would make for an excellent MPA based on this aircraft. So in my opinion China would be able to provide a good competitor MPA to P8 Poseidon. Based on the pattern of Chinese defense equipment as compared to its US counterparts, I would also expect it to cost less per aircraft compared to P8 Poseidon. This MPA should be a success in export markets that are moving away from US equipment(like Pakistan) or others that are simply barred from acquiring US equipment(like Iran).

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## Armchair-General

GriffinsRule said:


> All Mirages are operated by the Air Force. Navy does not have any fighter air craft.
> 
> Btw, if you want to see their pictures, just google Mirage 5PA3 ... or conversely, any PAF Mirage picture where the serial number is in the 400 range is going to be the Agave radar equipped versions.


I thought around 12 mirages were directly operated by the navy for anti ship role using exocets.


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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Navy SA-319B Alouette III helicopter lands aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). Personnel assigned to the Pakistan navy destroyer PNS Shahjahan (DDG 186) visited George H.W. Bush for a coordinated professional exchange while the two ships were operating in the vicinity of one another in the Arabian Sea. George H.W. Bush is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility on its first operational deployment conducting maritime security operations and support missions as part of Operations Enduring Freedom and New Dawn.


this is pure junk sir

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## Arsalan

Armchair-General said:


> I thought around 12 mirages were directly operated by the navy for anti ship role using exocets.


You were wrong. 

Mirages are being operated by PAF.


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## khanasifm

Cookie Monster said:


> I would expect that P3C Orions are still going to be around at least another 10 years or so specially with PN.
> 
> This I think is perfect timing...in 10 years time, the Comac C919(currently being tested) would have matured and most likely would be acquired in numbers by Chinese airlines for domestic travel purposes. Currently they are aiming to deliver first production C919 in 2021.
> Source
> 
> In these 10 years China would also make more progress in radar tech and other avionics. This combined with large scale production(in the civil sector) of Comac C919 would make for an excellent MPA based on this aircraft. So in my opinion China would be able to provide a good competitor MPA to P8 Poseidon. Based on the pattern of Chinese defense equipment as compared to its US counterparts, I would also expect it to cost less per aircraft compared to P8 Poseidon. This MPA should be a success in export markets that are moving away from US equipment(like Pakistan) or others that are simply barred from acquiring US equipment(like Iran).



If paf is still flying 1960 era c130 and pn seaking than pn can still fly p3s since same rr engine on both and both are LM product and old aircraft can be bought for spares canabalized for spares


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## Cookie Monster

khanasifm said:


> If paf is still flying 1960 era c130 and pn seaking than pn can still fly p3s since same rr engine on both and both are LM product and old aircraft can be bought for spares canabalized for spares


I didn't say PN can't operate P3C after a certain time...with enough time/effort/money, of course they can be kept operational. However eventually PN would need replacement of these MPAs...and so I was pointing out a possibility of MPAs based on C919 aircraft, which I think would be viable and cost effective.


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## Ultima Thule

zahra1234 said:


> THANKS FOR SHARING
> http://www.fashionstylestrend.com/beauty-style/


What Fcuk do fashion style in *PAKISTAN NAVAL AVIATION THREAD  you're reported for stupid and crap post*


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## Inception-06

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Navy SA-319B Alouette III helicopter lands aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). Personnel assigned to the Pakistan navy destroyer PNS Shahjahan (DDG 186) visited George H.W. Bush for a coordinated professional exchange while the two ships were operating in the vicinity of one another in the Arabian Sea. George H.W. Bush is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility on its first operational deployment conducting maritime security operations and support missions as part of Operations Enduring Freedom and New Dawn.



The Type-21 Frigates could not house a Z-9 Helicopter ?

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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> The Type-21 Frigates could not house a Z-9 Helicopter ?



The helicopter deck and hangar of Type 21 frigates, during their RN service, supported 1x Lynx helicopter (which is similar to the Z-9EC in size and MTOW).





_HMS Amazon (F 169) flight deck with Westland Lynx helicopter_

However, it may not be possible for the larger (and heavier) Sea King.
_




_
I think the issue is current number of Z-9EC helicopters. 6 of them used with 4x F-22P, 1x PNS Alamgir and 1x PNS Nasr.





_Pakistan Navy Harbin Z-9EC landing on PNS Nasr.
_
Pakistan Navy Z-9EC and Alouette III helicopters are anti-submarine warfare capable, the latter carries the Mk 44 torpedo, weighing 196kg.

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## AMG_12

Gryphon said:


> The helicopter deck and hangar of Type 21 frigates, during their RN service, supported 1x Lynx helicopter (which is similar to the Z-9EC in size and MTOW).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _HMS Amazon (F 169) flight deck with Westland Lynx helicopter_
> 
> However, it may not be possible for the larger (and heavier) Sea King.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> I think the issue is current number of Z-9EC helicopters. 6 of them used with 4x F-22P, 1x PNS Alamgir and 1x PNS Nasr.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Pakistan Navy Harbin Z-9EC landing on PNS Nasr.
> _
> Pakistan Navy Z-9EC and Alouette III helicopters are anti-submarine warfare capable, the latter carries the Mk 44 torpedo, weighing 196kg.


How's Alouette ASW capable? They're purely used for light transport & SAR duties.

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## Gryphon

Game.Invade said:


> How's Alouette ASW capable? They're purely used for light transport & SAR duties.



*333 ASW SQUADRON*
_The Squadron came into being in 1970 following the deal with Royal Navy for the acquisition of two Whitby Class Frigates. The A/C was to be operated from ship’s deck in limited ASW roles i.e with MAD and MK 44 torpedoes. Later the Whitby class frigates deal was scraped however; the deal to procure Alouette helicopter from France was retained. The Squadron was formed in 1977 with four SA-319 Alouette aircraft. Initially four pilots were trained in France. In 1982 two more Alouette a/c with radar and in 2008 two Alouette a/c with upgraded instruments and avionics were added to the inventory of the Squadron. Presently Squadron has a total of 7 aircrafts in its inventory. _

https://paknavy.gov.pk/ASW_333.html

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## AMG_12

Gryphon said:


> *333 ASW SQUADRON*
> _The Squadron came into being in 1970 following the deal with Royal Navy for the acquisition of two Whitby Class Frigates. The A/C was to be operated from ship’s deck in limited ASW roles i.e with MAD and MK 44 torpedoes. Later the Whitby class frigates deal was scraped however; the deal to procure Alouette helicopter from France was retained. The Squadron was formed in 1977 with four SA-319 Alouette aircraft. Initially four pilots were trained in France. In 1982 two more Alouette a/c with radar and in 2008 two Alouette a/c with upgraded instruments and avionics were added to the inventory of the Squadron. Presently Squadron has a total of 7 aircrafts in its inventory. _
> 
> https://paknavy.gov.pk/ASW_333.html


I don't think those are still in service. But thanks for the information. I'lI try to dig more on the subject.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Navy SA-319B Alouette III helicopter lands aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). Personnel assigned to the Pakistan navy destroyer PNS Shahjahan (DDG 186) visited George H.W. Bush for a coordinated professional exchange while the two ships were operating in the vicinity of one another in the Arabian Sea. George H.W. Bush is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility on its first operational deployment conducting maritime security operations and support missions as part of Operations Enduring Freedom and New Dawn.


Old, old pic

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## hassan1



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## STRANGER BIRD

*Sea King and Puma. *

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## hassan1



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## Inception-06

The Old fleet:

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## hassan1



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## blinder

Aircraft #78 has arrived at Monchengladbach a week ago. There are now two, but #79 should be delivered back to Pakistan by the end of the month.

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## Chimgathar

Hi guys can PN Z-9s carry Anti ship missiles, I saw these photos in Chinese navy thread.
"Z-9D & YJ-9"

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## fatman17

Chimgathar said:


> Hi guys can PN Z-9s carry Anti ship missiles, I saw these photos in Chinese navy thread.
> "Z-9D & YJ-9"


The Z9C has to be upgraded to Z9D. It's that simple

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## HRK

cockpit of PN Z-9C (@ 0:08 sec)

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## Armchair

If you really wanted to turn the tables on the IN, IMHO, PN should do anything to convince China for 8 J-20s. IN has no counter to such a plane. It would be a constant threat, with any of their capital ships, AWACS, P-8s, no matter where in the Indian ocean, afraid of being knocked out.

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## khanasifm

Anti surface vs anti sub roles pn z9 are only for anti sub roles so no Missile as far as evidence is concerned via Pic available


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> If you really wanted to turn the tables on the IN, IMHO, PN should do anything to convince China for 8 J-20s. IN has no counter to such a plane. It would be a constant threat, with any of their capital ships, AWACS, P-8s, no matter where in the Indian ocean, afraid of being knocked out.


IMO even for the PLAAF/PLAN's standards, the J-20 is more experimental and a stepping stone to something else later down the line than a serviceable product. I know the PLAAF 'inducted' it, but with them continuing with also rolling out J-10Cs and J-11Ds to-date, the J-20 isn't key to their strategy. It's key strategically in terms of letting them develop next-gen fighters, but I think we'll start seeing the real fruits 5-10 years from now (as a new fighter from Chengdu).

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO even for the PLAAF/PLAN's standards, the J-20 is more experimental and a stepping stone to something else later down the line than a serviceable product. I know the PLAAF 'inducted' it, but with them continuing with also rolling out J-10Cs and J-11Ds to-date, the J-20 isn't key to their strategy. It's key strategically in terms of letting them develop next-gen fighters, but I think we'll start seeing the real fruits 5-10 years from now (as a new fighter from Chengdu).



I agree with you Bilal that China has other projects in the pipeline. Remember, F-22 research started in the 1970s. China must already start building the generation after J-20, the US is already on its way. That said, I put a little more faith in the J-20 as something beyond experimental, and will probably be inducted in at least 200-300 units. 

J-20 attempts to par PLAAF forces, the J-XX beyond this will attempt to one-up the Americans.


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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> If you really wanted to turn the tables on the IN, IMHO, PN should do anything to convince China for 8 J-20s. IN has no counter to such a plane. It would be a constant threat, with any of their capital ships, AWACS, P-8s, no matter where in the Indian ocean, afraid of being knocked out.


it will bring back PN in game fully agreed

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## syed_yusuf

Armchair said:


> If you really wanted to turn the tables on the IN, IMHO, PN should do anything to convince China for 8 J-20s. IN has no counter to such a plane. It would be a constant threat, with any of their capital ships, AWACS, P-8s, no matter where in the Indian ocean, afraid of being knocked out.


Good idea

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO even for the PLAAF/PLAN's standards, the J-20 is more experimental and a stepping stone to something else later down the line than a serviceable product. I know the PLAAF 'inducted' it, but with them continuing with also rolling out J-10Cs and J-11Ds to-date, the J-20 isn't key to their strategy. It's key strategically in terms of letting them develop next-gen fighters, but I think we'll start seeing the real fruits 5-10 years from now (as a new fighter from Chengdu).


so you are saying we expect to see another JXX in addition to j20 and j-31..
i am not sure..
the design of j-20 is solid, they can keep updating the rest


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> so you are saying we expect to see *another JXX in addition to j20 and j-31..*
> i am not sure..
> the design of j-20 is solid, they can keep updating the rest


I believe so.

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## Aamir Hussain

J 20 is in no way the definitive version of the technology or the platform. China wanted to show that they can and will be up there with the best of the best in terms of stealth technology. So it inducted technology "demonstrator" in operational echelons. 

IMHO work must be on for a more definitive/truly "Operational" version of J-20 more powerful power plant and avionics.

I suspect project "Azam" is linked in some way with that definitive version.

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## ziaulislam

Aamir Hussain said:


> J 20 is in no way the definitive version of the technology or the platform. China wanted to show that they can and will be up there with the best of the best in terms of stealth technology. So it inducted technology "demonstrator" in operational echelons.
> 
> IMHO work must be on for a more definitive/truly "Operational" version of J-20 more powerful power plant and avionics.
> 
> I suspect project "Azam" is linked in some way with that definitive version.


simply updated engine and avionics will not give the j-20 a different name..


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## Imran Khan

HRK said:


> cockpit of PN Z-9C (@ 0:08 sec)


this is only decent modern thing flying for PN

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## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> this is only decent modern thing flying for PN


Don't count out seaking

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## Basel

Armchair said:


> If you really wanted to turn the tables on the IN, IMHO, PN should do anything to convince China for 8 J-20s. IN has no counter to such a plane. It would be a constant threat, with any of their capital ships, AWACS, P-8s, no matter where in the Indian ocean, afraid of being knocked out.



J-20 may not be needed if Pakistan can field Su-35 of latest Chinese flankers in decent numbers.

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## LKJ86

Basel said:


> J-20 may not be needed if Pakistan can field Su-35 of latest Chinese flankers in decent numbers.


It has been confirmed that the radar of Su-35 is inferior to that of J-10C.
Su-35 is not as good as Russia claims to be.


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## syed_yusuf

LKJ86 said:


> It has been confirmed that the radar of Su-35 is inferior to that of J-10C.
> Su-35 is not as good as Russia claims to be.


Who confirmed it?


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## war&peace

ziaulislam said:


> simply updated engine and avionics will not give the j-20 a different name..


Changes will be more drastic.....since that will a 5.5 or 6th AC as USA is already working it and Europeans are also planning to develop their own version.



syed_yusuf said:


> Who confirmed it?


China has acquired Su35s so they have tested it. Su35 uses PESA radar which despite being very powerful is still inferior to the top of the line AESA radars.

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## Aamir Hussain

syed_yusuf said:


> Don't count out seaking



Seaking is a much much better platform with AshM capability, ASW capability with a dunking sonar and automated grid search capability and a powerful surface search radar.

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## syed_yusuf

Since when PN start operating mi14 and in what role? Any idea?


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> Since when PN start operating mi14 and in what role? Any idea?


Mi14 is dedicated for fire fighting. 2 Mi14 purchased a few years ago. Should be part of army aviation 6 sqn l believe.

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## HRK

HD pic of Z-9C (serial#20) of PN









@Stealth .... use your magic wand

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## Rashid Mahmood

*Pakistan Navy helicopter crashes in Arabian Sea, one martyred*
*Web Desk*
12:08 PM | August 31, 2018
A member of Pakistan Navy was martyred on Friday as their helicopter crashed in the Arabian Sea, a spokesperson said.
The helicopter was on routine operation when it crashed, he added.


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## Aamir Hussain

type of helo???

They were conducting mock drills (Maybe for 6th Sept.) Yesterday i saw 2 Sea kings coming in from the sea and then another one later on. In both instances the machines were ASW versions


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## danishsaleem

Rashid Mahmood said:


> *Pakistan Navy helicopter crashes in Arabian Sea, one martyred*
> *Web Desk*
> 12:08 PM | August 31, 2018
> A member of Pakistan Navy was martyred on Friday as their helicopter crashed in the Arabian Sea, a spokesperson said.
> The helicopter was on routine operation when it crashed, he added.



Z-9c or for sure, because Sea kings have bigger crew.


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## khanasifm

Pn also operates older single engine alouettes vs z-9 which are twin engined


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## ghazi52

Akhtar Ali (M) Marine martyred last night in helicopter accident. 
May Allah grant them the highest place in paradise.
Ameen.

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## danishsaleem

ghazi52 said:


> Akhtar Ali (M) Marine martyred last night in helicopter accident.
> May Allah grant them the highest place in paradise.
> Ameen.



what kind of accident took place? what happen, will anybody inform us also.


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## Aamir Hussain

Must have been a rappelling accident. May Allah grant his soul a place in heaven and solace to his family, Ameen.


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## umair86

It is reported that it was a sea king that crashed in the Arabian sea on 31 August 3 rescued 3 missing and one Akhtar Ali marine martyred.


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## Rashid Mahmood

danishsaleem said:


> Z-9c or for sure, because Sea kings have bigger crew.



Sea King.

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## Dazzler

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Sea King.



The sad part is that it was one of those that navy recently acquired from UK. That fleet (6) should be grounded and left to be used as spares. For now the navy must do with their original inventory.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Dazzler said:


> The sad part is that it was one of those that navy recently acquired from UK. That fleet (6) should be grounded and left to be used as spares. For now the navy must to with their original inventory.



It was a maneuvering accident, which could happen with any aircraft.

All aircraft's are flown keeping in view the flight safety standards. 
Which to ground and which to fly, is the decision of the user.

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## Dazzler

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It was a maneuvering accident, which could happen with any aircraft.
> 
> All aircraft's are flown keeping in view the flight safety standards.
> Which to ground and which to fly, is the decision of the user.



piling up scraps and leftovers from all over the world will lead to more accidents. A strange frame of mind that is beyond me and many in this country.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Dazzler said:


> piling up scraps and leftovers from all over the world will lead to more accidents. A strange frame of mind that is beyond me and many in this country.



The user is not an idiot to fly scrap.
Life of an aircrew is more important to them.

Every a/c has its airframe life and parts life. These are NOT compromised in any case.

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## khanasifm

Not sure what world do some folks live o
country can not pay it short term debt corruption now 99% in all dealing in billions no one wants to pay taxes and expecting buy new stuff and not old

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## BHarwana

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036550943519715328

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## AMG_12

BHarwana said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036550943519715328


What does this mean?


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## BHarwana

Game.Invade said:


> What does this mean?


Turkey is sending a 25 men rescue team to Pakistan along with equipment and a plane to look for the wreckage.

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## Dazzler

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The user is not an idiot to fly scrap.
> Life of an aircrew is more important to them.
> 
> Every a/c has its airframe life and parts life. These are NOT compromised in any case.



Each time i look at the neighbour and their navy, not to mention the ambitions, i see the opposite happening in the PN. With ancient and nearly falling apart assets in active service, if one likes to call them assets at all, will only lead PN to rude awakening. A long list of idiotic acquisitions is there. Should i start counting?

- 5 Type 21s that even a junkyard wont take
- The way past their prime recently inducted Seakings
- Did i forget mighty Lynx that were disposed off ALONG with spares?








Lynx saga is a clear case of bad planning, if there was any planning at all. Worse, when push will come to shove, as far as PN is concerned, there is no plan. Simple as that. Not to mention, you guys cannot even answer two queries properly at defense exhibitions. What to say about your ability to defend the coastline.

The current state of affairs are abysmal to say the least.



BHarwana said:


> Turkey is sending a 25 men rescue team to Pakistan along with equipment and a plane to look for the wreckage.



Truly sorry state of affairs!!



khanasifm said:


> Not sure what world do some folks live o
> country can not pay it short term debt corruption now 99% in all dealing in billions no one wants to pay taxes and expecting buy new stuff and not old



I pay my taxes and reserve the right to question the reasoning behind such idiotic inductions. Do you?

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## BHarwana

Dazzler said:


> Truly sorry state of affairs!!


Why sorry?


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## GriffinsRule

New aircraft are not somehow prone to accidents. No need to jump the gun when the cause of the crash is unknown

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## Dazzler

GriffinsRule said:


> New aircraft are not somehow prone to accidents. No need to jump the gun when the cause of the crash is unknown



Better calm down and check the tone. You were not addressed.


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## GriffinsRule

While I am addressing your panic striken posts. You have a problem with it, do something about it

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## Dazzler

GriffinsRule said:


> While I am addressing your panic striken posts. You have a problem with it, do something about it



Dont bother. not your concern.


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## GriffinsRule

Lucky for me, this is a public forum and someone's living room, hence everyone is allowed to express their views regardless of whether others agree with them or not. You thought my tone had a problem, but I think its just your perception issue. 

BTW as of last year, Indian Navy was looking to purchase 4 Sea Kings from Canada to supplement their fleet. Not sure if that went anywhere but it is potentially a good venue for PN to increase its force numbers until a replacement is on the cards down the line. We might even be one of the six countries that expressed interest in them. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sea-king-sale-1.4377408

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## nomi007

we need to replace old junky helos with 
better chinese z-9 and z15


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## truthseeker2010

Dazzler said:


> Each time i look at the neighbour and their navy, not to mention the ambitions, i see the opposite happening in the PN. With ancient and nearly falling apart assets in active service, if one likes to call them assets at all, will only lead PN to rude awakening. A long list of idiotic acquisitions is there. Should i start counting?
> 
> - 5 Type 21s that even a junkyard wont take
> - The way past their prime recently inducted Seakings
> - Did i forget mighty Lynx that were disposed off ALONG with spares?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lynx saga is a clear case of bad planning, if there was any planning at all. Worse, when push will come to shove, as far as PN is concerned, there is no plan. Simple as that. Not to mention, you guys cannot even answer two queries properly at defense exhibitions. What to say about your ability to defend the coastline.
> 
> The current state of affairs are abysmal to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> Truly sorry state of affairs!!
> 
> 
> 
> I pay my taxes and reserve the right to question the reasoning behind such idiotic inductions. Do you?



You nailed it Sir!

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## blinder

nomi007 said:


> we need to replace old junky helos with
> better chinese z-9 and z15



First I want to see a Z-9 or Z-15 survive fourty years of service.
The Z-9 are based on the Dauphin, not designed for maritime operations. If you do not take them apart often for inspection, corrosion will be a big problem. Also, try to fly a Z-9 into high winds on a rescue mission or use the hoist in anything but fair weather. Good luck...

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## Thorough Pro

Criticism is easy, do you have a solution? Do you not know the economic condition of Pakistan? Do the armed forces not want new toys? You make it sound like government gives them funds to buy new ones but they choose to buy old ones. Before you start ranting on such topics its better to have a clear understanding of the issue, besides who says the helo went down due to technical fault? @Rashid Mahmood clearly stated it was a manoeuvering accident that can happen with any machine despite its age.





Dazzler said:


> Each time i look at the neighbour and their navy, not to mention the ambitions, i see the opposite happening in the PN. With ancient and nearly falling apart assets in active service, if one likes to call them assets at all, will only lead PN to rude awakening. A long list of idiotic acquisitions is there. Should i start counting?
> 
> - 5 Type 21s that even a junkyard wont take
> - The way past their prime recently inducted Seakings
> - Did i forget mighty Lynx that were disposed off ALONG with spares?
> 
> 
> 
> Lynx saga is a clear case of bad planning, if there was any planning at all. Worse, when push will come to shove, as far as PN is concerned, there is no plan. Simple as that. Not to mention, you guys cannot even answer two queries properly at defense exhibitions. What to say about your ability to defend the coastline.
> 
> The current state of affairs are abysmal to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> Truly sorry state of affairs!!
> 
> 
> 
> I pay my taxes and reserve the right to question the reasoning behind such idiotic inductions. Do you?






Dazzler said:


> piling up scraps and leftovers from all over the world will lead to more accidents. A strange frame of mind that is beyond me and many in this country.

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## niaz

Each time there is an accident, one comes across ‘knee-jerk’ posts describing the Pak Navy brass as nincompoops and describing PN hardware as junk. I can understand the anger & frustration of my compatriots because undoubtedly most of Pakistan Navy hardware is second hand and obsolete compared to the Indian Navy. Nevertheless, my compatriots must recognize two very important ground realities.

1. Sea King is an extremely reliable and potent ASW platform. Original version Sikorsky SH-3 entered service in 1961 with US Navy; SH-3 is still used by the Italian, Brazilian & Argentine navies.

Sea King version entered Service in 1969 with the Royal Navy and after nearly 50 years it is still in active service with the German, Indian & Pakistan Navies. Sea King has been in PN Service since 1972 and to the best of my info, this is only the 2nd loss.

Additionally, 'Accidents' will happen, even with the newest equipment and not necessarily related to the age/ maintenance or the manufacturing fault. The only thing to do is to investigate the causes of the accident and try to minimise the needless loss of the valuable trained manpower.

2. Most importantly, Pakistan is on the verge of ‘Bankruptcy’, we have to borrow money merely to pay off existing debt instalment, but here I see posts calling PN brass as idiots and that why they don’t they buy this or that.

Why can’t intelligent members of this forum understand that regardless of our ‘Wishlist’ Pakistan simply does not have the resources and like it or not; PN must make do with what we have or do without.

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## Dazzler

niaz said:


> Each time there is an accident, one comes across ‘knee-jerk’ posts describing the Pak Navy brass as nincompoops and describing PN hardware as junk. I can understand the anger & frustration of my compatriots because undoubtedly most of Pakistan Navy hardware is second hand and obsolete compared to the Indian Navy. Nevertheless, my compatriots must recognize two very important ground realities.
> 
> 1. Sea King is an extremely reliable and potent ASW platform. Original version Sikorsky SH-3 entered service in 1961 with US Navy; SH-3 is still used by the Italian, Brazilian & Argentine navies.
> 
> Sea King version entered Service in 1969 with the Royal Navy and after nearly 50 years it is still in active service with the German, Indian & Pakistan Navies. Sea King has been in PN Service since 1972 and to the best of my info, this is only the 2nd loss.
> 
> Additionally, 'Accidents' will happen, even with the newest equipment and not necessarily related to the age/ maintenance or the manufacturing fault. The only thing to do is to investigate the causes of the accident and try to minimise the needless loss of the valuable trained manpower.
> 
> 2. Most importantly, Pakistan is on the verge of ‘Bankruptcy’, we have to borrow money merely to pay off existing debt instalment, but here I see posts calling PN brass as idiots and that why they don’t they buy this or that.
> 
> Why can’t intelligent members of this forum understand that regardless of our ‘Wishlist’ Pakistan simply does not have the resources and like it or not; PN must make do with what we have or do without.



Niaz bhai,

Thanks for enlightening us with your knowledge. Appreciate your input on the matter.

As for some members, even those with a handful of posts under their belt jumped the gun in defending PN's decisions but nobody cared to consider the concern behind that post. As a concerned citizen, i know the navy gets the least share among all arms but even then their acquisitions are often questionable. There is no knee jerk reaction here, rather a concerned, near worried citizen spoke his heart out. 

The crash involved lives of MY soldiers! I have every right to feel concerned and question the acquisition of assets.

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## araz

Dazzler said:


> Niaz bhai,
> 
> Thanks for enlightening us with your knowledge. Appreciate your input on the matter.
> 
> As for some members, even those with a handful of posts under their belt jumped the gun in defending PN's decisions but nobody cared to consider the concern behind that post. As a concerned citizen, i know the navy gets the least share among all arms but even then their acquisitions are often questionable. There is no knee jerk reaction here, rather a concerned, near worried citizen spoke his heart out.
> 
> The crash involved lives of MY soldiers! I have every right to feel concerned and question the acquisition of assets.


I fully agree and sympathize with your post. However wd need to objectively analyze the PN acquisitions in light of what was available in the a.ount they had to spend. I will emphasize availability being buying power and willingness of sellers.
A

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## ghazi52



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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Does the Pak Navy Admiral ride a BMW limo back and forth to work---and are there multiple BMW's / Mercedez Benz in navy Admiral's transport fleet---if there are---then everyone talking in support of navy is an equal criminal in the crime of stealing from the nation---.

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## Gryphon

Some years back, PN wanted to acquire 6x Seahawk helicopters to replace the Sea King fleet. This didn't materialize and consequently the Sea Kings were put through an upgrade process which included installation of Leonardo Seaspray 5300 AESA radar, etc.

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## khanasifm

Gryphon said:


> Some years back, PN wanted to acquire 6x Seahawk helicopters to replace the Sea King fleet. This didn't materialize and consequently the Sea Kings were put through an upgrade process which included installation of Leonardo Seaspray 5300 AESA radar, etc.



I think seakawk were for six US ships expected part of eda which never materialised so no seahawk as well


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## hassan1




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## Basel

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 508147



Details please.

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## Jäger

maybe a bit older. but a Pakistani Navy ATR-72-500 MPA at the Rheinland Air Service station

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## khanasifm

Basel said:


> Details please.



Pn has acquired this aircraft for ew ?? Now used as vip traffic ??


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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> Details please.


tender issue for sale this baby .pn no need it


khanasifm said:


> Pn has acquired this aircraft for ew ?? Now used as vip traffic ??


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Pn has acquired this aircraft for ew ?? Now used as vip traffic ??


Being upgraded one at a time because funds issue. These planes are multi role though

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## TOPGUN

Bundeswehr said:


> maybe a bit older. but a Pakistani Navy ATR-72-500 MPA at the Rheinland Air Service station
> View attachment 522441



What would be crew load on the aircraft ? meaning on all stations ?


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## Jäger

TOPGUN said:


> What would be crew load on the aircraft ? meaning on all stations ?


from what I read, it's crew capacity is 68-78


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## TOPGUN

Bundeswehr said:


> from what I read, it's crew capacity is 68-78



That's way too much cant be !!


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## HRK



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy has inducted its first upgraded ATR aircraft and Sea King helicopters in its fleet.






The newly inducted aircraft. PHOTO: PAKISTAN NAVY





Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Zafar Mahmood visits the newly inducted Sea King helicopter during the ceremony to induct aviation units into Pakistan Navy. PHOTO: PAKISTAN NAVY

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## khanasifm

Three new were bought in flyable form I think the recent crash was newer from uk so 2 inducted ??


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## AMG_12

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Navy has inducted its first upgraded ATR aircraft and Sea King helicopters in its fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The newly inducted aircraft. PHOTO: PAKISTAN NAVY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Zafar Mahmood visits the newly inducted Sea King helicopter during the ceremony to induct aviation units into Pakistan Navy. PHOTO: PAKISTAN NAVY


One of them is the commando version. From the current configuration, it looks like it's going to be used by SSGN.

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## HRK

Seaking serial number-15

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## aziqbal

hopefully PN will get decent Z18 variant from China for navy 

we should establish a proper rotary wing ASW squadron with latest technologies to sweep the coast


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aziqbal said:


> hopefully PN will get decent Z18 variant from China for navy
> 
> we should establish a proper rotary wing ASW squadron with latest technologies to sweep the coast


tbh I wouldn't count Leonardo and the AW101 out either. I know it's costlier, but it's a mature and widely used platform. It wouldn't be beyond the PN to opt for that to supplant the Sea Kings.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Bundeswehr said:


> from what I read, it's crew capacity is 68-78



No it is not.
Much less.

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## Nasr

aziqbal said:


> hopefully PN will get decent Z18 variant from China for navy
> 
> we should establish a proper rotary wing ASW squadron with latest technologies to sweep the coast



Z-18 would be an ideal replacement for the venerable the SH-3 Sea King. The latter has served long past its shelf life, and in the coming years would be in need to be completely replaced.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Ghazwa1 said:


> Z-18 would be an ideal replacement for the venerable the SH-3 Sea King. The latter has served long past its shelf life, and in the coming years would be in need to be completely replaced.



There is no such thing as "Shelf Life" for an aircraft. It is not a consumable item.
PN never operated the SH-3.

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## Nasr

Yes thank you for the correction, Pakistan Navy hasn't operated SH-3s. The other variants of Sea King by OEM Sikorsky (American) and licensed built Westland (British). The "Shelf Life" was just an expression, what I meant was that this is an old rotorcraft and shall be in need of replacement. The Z-18s look ideal, in terms of size and capabilities.


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## MastanKhan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> There is no such thing as "Shelf Life" for an aircraft. It is not a consumable item.
> PN never operated the SH-3.



Hi,

Thank you very much for stating that---.

Young people think that to work good---everything has to be new---.

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## MastanKhan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> There is no such thing as "Shelf Life" for an aircraft. It is not a consumable item.
> PN never operated the SH-3.



Hi,

Anything that has to do with sensors---does not mean that when it gets old it becomes obsolete---.

My experience says that it all depends on your operator and your team leader---how they tag team the information.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Aamir Hussain

wow beautiful snap!! I saw this as i have the same view from my office window! Thanks for sharing windie


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## Jäger

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 540355


are the Seakings being upgraded or is there a plan to phase them out?


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## Windjammer

Bundeswehr said:


> are the Seakings being upgraded or is there a plan to phase them out?


PN recently acquired some more from Britain after a major upgrade.

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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


> PN recently acquired some more from Britain after a major upgrade.


Acquired 3 one lost remaing 2 , .

One is for search and rescue and the other is for marine use

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## Human One

syed_yusuf said:


> One is for search and rescue and the other is for marine use



Can they be converted for use in other roles?


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> Acquired 3 one lost remaing 2 , .
> 
> One is for search and rescue and the other is for marine use


Actually 6, but 3 are being dismantled for spares.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Actually 6, but 3 are being dismantled for spares.


That is correct but only 2 got inducted for pn

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## khanasifm

The recent addition one has army green and yellow paint scheme vs older one having black/blueish tone


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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> Actually 6, but 3 are being dismantled for spares.



I think 7 even:
3 inducted 17 HAR3A (yellow), 18 HC4+ (crashed), 19 HC4+ (green)
2 for spares in Pakistan ZA295 (HC4+) and ZH545 (HAR3A)
2 for spares remain in stock in UK ZA296 and ZA299 (both HC4+)
Or am I misinformed?


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## khanasifm

http://www.collectivemag.com/vector-aerospace-sea-king-refurbishment-contract/

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## Khaqan Humayun

Many Years ago Pakistan Navy request for a squadron of J-11b only for Navy. A naval air force for a quick response for any aggressor.
At that time Gov was not willing for it now time have gone far. Indian Navy has it own Naval air force. 
We don't have any need of aircraft career our coastal area is not big but for a quick response we need Naval Air force. Navy bound Air force will have anti-ship & submarine weapon this will help our Pakistan Navy.

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## aziqbal

Pakistan navy deserves a squadron of medium sized ASW choppers 

something like Z-18, if they don't like it outfit it with Western systems 

12 of these should be bought without delay 

I hope we don't end up spending billions on the Type 054AP and fit on them those Z9C helicopters 

increase the deck to accommodate Z-18


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## Dreamer.

I don't think size of the deck is the problem.


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## khanasifm

?? Spares ?? Plus ??

https://www.janes.com/article/87433/belgian-sea-king-conducts-last-flight


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> ?? Spares ?? Plus ??
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/87433/belgian-sea-king-conducts-last-flight


We recently picked up 6 ex UK for spares and attrition replacements


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## hassan1



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## syed_yusuf

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 550687



is this the 3rd one?


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## Signalian

F-16 with AN/APG 68 Radar

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## khanasifm

Penguin [emoji210] Anti ship missile ?? And apg radar not sure [emoji848] which version


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> Penguin [emoji210] Anti ship missile ?? And apg radar not sure [emoji848] which version


All versions have it, we just dont have a weapon to mate it with.


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## Suff Shikan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 550687


I saw this yesterday, flying over my ofc in Karachi


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## weqi

http://newsweekpakistan.com/america-approves-anti-submarine-helicopter-sale-to-india/


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## Vortex

weqi said:


> http://newsweekpakistan.com/america-approves-anti-submarine-helicopter-sale-to-india/



Business is business and tensions, conflict wars are good for business.

Time to think out of the box : adapting an anti air sublaunched missile with the help of our friends

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## CHI RULES

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Many Years ago Pakistan Navy request for a squadron of J-11b only for Navy. A naval air force for a quick response for any aggressor.
> At that time Gov was not willing for it now time have gone far. Indian Navy has it own Naval air force.
> We don't have any need of aircraft career our coastal area is not big but for a quick response we need Naval Air force. Navy bound Air force will have anti-ship & submarine weapon this will help our Pakistan Navy.



PN focused squadrons i.e one squadron of JF17 and other Mirage-V already operational perhaps shall be replaced by JF17 BLOCK-III version in future. They are fully available for naval duties perhaps modernization is the issue now.



Vortex said:


> Business is business and tensions, conflict wars are good for business.
> 
> Time to think out of the box : adapting an anti air sublaunched missile with the help of our friends



First we should check whether our Subs are capable to have Anti air missiles/systems further the Pak Agosta 90s already getting torpedo defence system in on going up grades.


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## Khafee

Vortex said:


> Business is business and tensions, conflict wars are good for business.
> 
> Time to think out of the box : adapting an anti air sublaunched missile with the help of our friends



https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/missile-system-idas.html
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ed-anti-aircraft-missiles-finally-come-of-age

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## Vortex

Khafee said:


> https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/missile-system-idas.html
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ed-anti-aircraft-missiles-finally-come-of-age



Hey they stolen my ideas I had when I was young student !!!

I should had filled patent. At least intellectual patent

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## Khaqan Humayun

CHI RULES said:


> PN focused squadrons i.e one squadron of JF17 and other Mirage-V already operational perhaps shall be replaced by JF17 BLOCK-III version in future. They are fully available for naval duties perhaps modernization is the issue now.
> 
> 
> 
> First we should check whether our Subs are capable to have Anti air missiles/systems further the Pak Agosta 90s already getting torpedo defence system in on going up grades.




May be you are right but I have never listen this news form any reliable source, many naval officers still says we need some J11b type jets.

After a long time I’m giving you this reply, because I was in search of reliable source that prove your news is correct.

I feel it would be more useful of this forum, if our forces were using this and we were getting direct answer from our forces.


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## ghazi52



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## Signalian

IN is employing P-8 Maritime aircraft which has a version called EP-8 employing ALQ-240, analogous to ALQ-218 of EA-18G. If IN goes for EP-8 version or the pod in future, PN Naval aviation and PAF will have a hard time.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/missile-system-idas.html
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ed-anti-aircraft-missiles-finally-come-of-age



Hi,

Couple of decades old idea---.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Signalian said:


> IN is employing P-8 Maritime aircraft which has a version called EP-8 employing ALQ-240, analogous to ALQ-218 of EA-18G. If IN goes for EP-8 version or the pod in future, PN Naval aviation and PAF will have a hard time.


Its already having a hard time. PN is like a coast guard. Sorry to be blunt but that's the reality of messed up policies and strategies.

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Harbin-Z-9C-Haitun/1825

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## Humble Analyst

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Its already having a hard time. PN is like a coast guard. Sorry to be blunt but that's the reality of messed up policies and strategies.


It is not so bad as Coast guard

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## Pakhtoon yum

Humble Analyst said:


> It is not so bad as Coast guard


True, but when navy is big the coast guard can call on the navy


----------



## blinder

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2863396543686861

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## khanasifm

The new type 054 and Turkish will be getting Chinese asw heli ?? Z9ers or a new type such as Russian medium weight asw as both platforms can support medium weight heli vs f22p which only support lighter types


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## Dazzler

That satcom dish is massive..

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## Quwa

@Oscar at the risk of sounding absurd, is there a scenario where Pakistan leverages China's economies-of-scale to develop and construct a small aircraft carrier (and launch with Project Azm fighters?)? 

Think 10-15 years from now when we do (or hope) to have a comparatively larger surface fleet to cover (right now: 4 heavy FFG in 054A/P, 8+ medium FFG in Jinnah-class & F-22P, 'many' corvettes incl. Damen and others).

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## SQ8

Quwa said:


> @Oscar at the risk of sounding absurd, is there a scenario where Pakistan leverages China's economies-of-scale to develop and construct a small aircraft carrier (and launch with Project Azm fighters?)?
> 
> Think 10-15 years from now when we do (or hope) to have a comparatively larger surface fleet to cover (right now: 4 heavy FFG in 054A/P, 8+ medium FFG in Jinnah-class & F-22P, 'many' corvettes incl. Damen and others).


The geopolitical requirements along with any economic resource for it have no chance of existing in the near or long term.

Our power projection is local or limited to the middle east via training.

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## Keysersoze

Quwa said:


> @Oscar at the risk of sounding absurd, is there a scenario where Pakistan leverages China's economies-of-scale to develop and construct a small aircraft carrier (and launch with Project Azm fighters?)?
> 
> Think 10-15 years from now when we do (or hope) to have a comparatively larger surface fleet to cover (right now: 4 heavy FFG in 054A/P, 8+ medium FFG in Jinnah-class & F-22P, 'many' corvettes incl. Damen and others).


Where will Pak project that power? In order to keep one at sea continuously the PN would need at least 3.


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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/missile-system-idas.html
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ed-anti-aircraft-missiles-finally-come-of-age



Hi,

The sub launch and Helicopter launch anti aircraft missiles are extremely critical element and hold a massive advantage over the adversary who thinks that these two vehicles are toothless---.

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## hassan1



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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2036

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## khanasifm

Assuming type054, Turkish and Damon ship would need heli so additional z-9 will be ordered? Doubling the total numbers at least


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Assuming type054, Turkish and Damon ship would need heli so additional z-9 will be ordered? Doubling the total numbers at least


The PN is open to various options. They'll probably look at replacing the Alouette IIIs and Sea Kings too. I think a AW101 or NH90NFH-class helicopter is possible, albeit in very limited numbers (6-8). Otherwise, Turkish Aerospace told me at IDEAS that the PN spoke to them about the T625 (and Anka UAV).

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## Yasser76

Would make a lot of sense to go for AW139 like Pak Army and PAF have done. It is ideal Alouette III replacement. Will need something heavier to replace Sea Kings and I agree AW101 is the perfect replacement as can also carry decent number of Commandos. Mixed buy of 6-8 AW139 and 8 AW101 would be ideal.


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN is open to various options. They'll probably look at replacing the Alouette IIIs and Sea Kings too. I think a AW101 or NH90NFH-class helicopter is possible, albeit in very limited numbers (6-8). Otherwise, Turkish Aerospace told me at IDEAS that the PN spoke to them about the T625 (and Anka UAV).



I was referring to anti sub on ships like z-9ers which is already type in on having multiple types for same purpose is not a good option but aw-139 anti sub version is there ??? 

Sea king are not going anywhere in next 5-10 years looks like many older version still available plus Spares


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> I was referring to anti sub on ships like z-9ers which is already type in on having multiple types for same purpose is not a good option but aw-139 anti sub version is there ???
> 
> Sea king are not going anywhere in next 5-10 years looks like many older version still available plus Spares


5-10 years isn't a long time  ... the PN's new ships (4 054AP, 4 MILGEM, etc) will be in the fleet by 2025.

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## Avid Aviator

https://jang.com.pk/news/672250-german-aircraft-visits-pak-naval-air-base-mehran

http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-08-2019/...aircraft-p3c-arrives-at-pns-mehran-in-karachi

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## mingle

Saeed Nafees said:


> https://jang.com.pk/news/672250-german-aircraft-visits-pak-naval-air-base-mehran
> 
> http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-08-2019/...aircraft-p3c-arrives-at-pns-mehran-in-karachi


Any significance of this trip seems very distant travel by Germans


----------



## ghazi52

GERMAN NAVY P3C AIRCRAFT VISITS NAVAL AIR BASE, MEHRAN





/

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Any significance of this trip seems very distant travel by Germans


Coffee and Chai trip

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Coffee and Chai trip


Sir jee.
They are stocking up on the Muree brewery single malt whiskey. One of the best brands in the world, I am told. 
A

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## Inception-06

araz said:


> Sir jee.
> They are stocking up on the Muree brewery single malt whiskey. One of the best brands in the world, I am told.
> A



which hotel in Muree? also for civilians?


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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The sub launch and Helicopter launch anti aircraft missiles are extremely critical element and hold a massive advantage over the adversary who thinks that these two vehicles are toothless---.


Isn’t this obvious

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## khanasifm

Saeed Nafees said:


> https://jang.com.pk/news/672250-german-aircraft-visits-pak-naval-air-base-mehran
> 
> http://www.radio.gov.pk/24-08-2019/...aircraft-p3c-arrives-at-pns-mehran-in-karachi



Is there German upgrade for pc-3 that may be in review ?? Sensors etc

https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/07/29/german-navy-extends-life-of-p-3c-with-new-wing/

The new wings are part of a wider program of updates planned for the German aircraft including mission avionics and an instrumental flight rules capability hike.

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Isn’t this obvious



Hi,

Yessir---indeed---. Just like if I take away your BUTTER KNIFE and gave you a sharp edged knife---hehehehehehe---

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Is there German upgrade for pc-3 that may be in review ?? Sensors etc
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/07/29/german-navy-extends-life-of-p-3c-with-new-wing/
> 
> The new wings are part of a wider program of updates planned for the German aircraft including mission avionics and an instrumental flight rules capability hike.


It might depend on US approvals (re: P-3C) and if there are still vendors available to do the job. The alternative is to pair a business/VIP jet with COTS sensors and weapons, the latter we already acquired from Leonardo et. al via the ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA program. And there are ITAR-free platforms too (e.g., Bombardier Global 6000). I think the main question for the PN would be finding a MAD.

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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It might depend on US approvals (re: P-3C) and if there are still vendors available to do the job. The alternative is to pair a business/VIP jet with COTS sensors and weapons, the latter we already acquired from Leonardo et. al via the ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA program. And there are ITAR-free platforms too (e.g., Bombardier Global 6000). I think the main question for the PN would be finding a MAD.



How about the one installed in Y-8Q? Though performance parameters are unknown, but something is better than nothing.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> How about the one installed in Y-8Q? Though performance parameters are unknown, but something is better than nothing.


I'd say it's an option.

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## araz

Inception-06 said:


> which hotel in Muree? also for civilians?


I dont know. I dont imbibe at all. In other words I get my highs from Orangeade.
A

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Coffee and Chai trip


Very expensive cup of coffee

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## Inception-06

araz said:


> I dont know. I dont imbibe at all. In other words I get my highs from Orangeade.
> A


I will stay at Sylvester in muree in a hotel. Don't know what to do else....


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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It might depend on US approvals (re: P-3C) and if there are still vendors available to do the job. The alternative is to pair a business/VIP jet with COTS sensors and weapons, the latter we already acquired from Leonardo et. al via the ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA program. And there are ITAR-free platforms too (e.g., Bombardier Global 6000). I think the main question for the PN would be finding a *MAD*.

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## GriffinsRule

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2019/08/06/pakistan-navy-sea-kings-on-exercise/sea-king/

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173665889847250946

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/2166

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## khanasifm

No info on, if any new heli were ordered with type 54, Turkish , damen opv ?? 

Unless 6 or so older heli and 6 z9 are considered enough for while navy even after induction of new ships [emoji568]

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## khanasifm

https://www.naval-technology.com/fe...ti-submarine-warfare-asw-helicopters-4153353/

Z-18F. ???


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## khanasifm

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...does-spotted-for-the-first-time-in-china.html


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## Haris Ali2140

How many ATR 72 are planned???
@fatman17 @Quwa @Dazzler


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## fatman17

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How many ATR 72 are planned???
> @fatman17 @Quwa @Dazzler


4 initially in batches of 2

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## Haris Ali2140

fatman17 said:


> 4 initially in batches of 2


Do P-3C and ATR 72 have the same role???

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## MIRauf

Not 100% similar role, there is over lap. ATR-72 ASW lack's MAD.

P-3C can do everything that ATR-72 can do, ATR-72 can do quite a lot what P-3C can do but at cheaper flying hour rate.

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## Haris Ali2140

MIRauf said:


> Not 100% similar role, there is over lap. ATR-72 ASW lack's MAD.
> 
> P-3C can do everything that ATR-72 can do, ATR-72 can do quite a lot what P-3C can do but at cheaper flying hour rate.


Thanks.

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## khanasifm

Atr attack capability is limited to Anti sub torpedos ?? Or Missile harpoon, Exocet etc are also integrated giving it Stand off attack capability 

Not sure [emoji848]

Avionics wise it is ahead of p-3 with Aesa radar

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## fatman17

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do P-3C and ATR 72 have the same role???


The Orion is a Long range MPA /ASW aircraft whilst the ATR will be restricted to patrolling the makran coast line.

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do P-3C and ATR 72 have the same role???


The official designation of the PN’s ATR-72 MPA is ‘Sea Eagle’ and is slated to replace the PN’s aging F-27 Fokker MPAs.







The Sea Eagle is configured with the following:

* Leonardo’s Seaspray 7300 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar;

* Aerodata AG’s AeroMission mission management system;

* Elettronica’s electronic support measures (ESM) system;

*FLIR Systems’ Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret;

* anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability through two torpedo hardpoints.

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## Viper27

Signalian said:


> The official designation of the PN’s ATR-72 MPA is ‘Sea Eagle’ and is slated to replace the PN’s aging F-27 Fokker MPAs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sea Eagle is configured with the following:
> 
> * Leonardo’s Seaspray 7300 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar;
> 
> * Aerodata AG’s AeroMission mission management system;
> 
> * Elettronica’s electronic support measures (ESM) system;
> 
> *FLIR Systems’ Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret;
> 
> * anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability through two torpedo hardpoints.



Considering that there’s an AESA radar on board i am wondering if these ATRs will work as airborne warning systems for the PAF too..

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## Dazzler



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> The official designation of the PN’s ATR-72 MPA is ‘Sea Eagle’ and is slated to replace the PN’s aging F-27 Fokker MPAs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sea Eagle is configured with the following:
> 
> * Leonardo’s Seaspray 7300 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar;
> 
> * Aerodata AG’s AeroMission mission management system;
> 
> * Elettronica’s electronic support measures (ESM) system;
> 
> *FLIR Systems’ Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret;
> 
> * anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability through two torpedo hardpoints.


Besides the aircraft platform, the main difference between the Saab Swordfish and this Sea Eagle configuration is that the Swordfish has a MAD and it uses Saab's CMS. Otherwise, they're virtually identical (same radar, ESM and even EO/IR). 

For its LRMPA requirement (to replace the P-3Cs), it wouldn't surprise me if the PN simply uses the Sea Eagle configuration (with MAD and AShW capability) on board a bigger plane, like the Bombardier Global 6000 or the Embraer E195.



Viper27 said:


> Considering that there’s an AESA radar on board i am wondering if these ATRs will work as airborne warning systems for the PAF too..


I think the PN's using those radars as over-the-horizon surface targeting sensors for the smaller ships, like the FAC(M).

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## Viper27

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PN's using those radars as over-the-horizon surface targeting sensors for the smaller ships, like the FAC(M).



Thank you for your response. Is it possible, in theory, for these AESA radars on the ATRs to be used for aerial surveillance too though?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Viper27 said:


> Thank you for your response. Is it possible, in theory, for these AESA radars on the ATRs to be used for aerial surveillance too though?


I'm not sure, I think the Seaspray-series is primarily optimized for air-to-surface tracking and targeting.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Besides the aircraft platform, the main difference between the Saab Swordfish and this Sea Eagle configuration is that the Swordfish has a MAD and it uses Saab's CMS. Otherwise, they're virtually identical (same radar, ESM and even EO/IR).
> 
> For its LRMPA requirement (to replace the P-3Cs), it wouldn't surprise me if the PN simply uses the Sea Eagle configuration (with MAD and AShW capability) on board a bigger plane, like the Bombardier Global 6000 or the Embraer E195.
> 
> 
> I think the PN's using those radars as over-the-horizon surface targeting sensors for the smaller ships, like the FAC(M).



how significant is the absence of MAD on the Sea Eagles?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> how significant is the absence of MAD on the Sea Eagles?


They'd have to solely rely on its EO/IR to for sub-surface targets, which isn't optimal. To be an effective ASW asset, it'll need MAD or the support of a MAD-equipped asset (like the P-3C).

I think the point behind the ATR-72 MPAs is to replace the Fokkers, but for replacing the P-3C, they'll need to add MAD to the Sea Eagle configuration, and in turn find a bigger aircraft that can carry AShM and ASW LWTs.

LRMPA integration was was studied on the Bombardier Global 6000 and the Embraer E195. I suspect the PN will have to look at those two options.

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## Rashid Mahmood

P-3C is an LRMP (Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft capable of AShV, ASW & OTHT)
ATR is MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft capable of Surveillance, ASW & OTHT)

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## Gryphon

*RAS Debuts PN’s Second ATR-72/500 MPA at the 2019 Paris Air Show* 

Germany-based aircraft Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) company, Rheinland Air Service (RAS) introduced the Pakistan Navy (PN)’s second ATR-72/500 Multirole Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) with ASW capabilities, which is now known as the RAS 72 Sea Eagle, to the general public at the 2019 Paris Air Show. 

The aircraft had previously been in service with the PN as a transport aircraft but has been converted into an MPA configuration at RAS’ facilities in Mönchengladbach, Germany under structural modification work which lasted 12 months. RAS handed over the second aircraft to the Pakistan Naval Air Arm in late June 2019. 

Pakistan awarded a contract to RAS in 2015 to convert two refurbished ATR-72/500s into MPAs. The work began in January 2016, following the release of export permits by the German Government. The first RAS 72 Sea Eagle MPAs, which were handed over by RAS in June 2018, re-entered service with the PN on 12 December 2018 in a ceremony held at the PNS Naval Air Station Mehran in Karachi. The structural modification work on the first ATR-72/500 aircraft lasted 15 months. According to RAS as of June 2019 the first RAS 72 Sea Eagle aircraft in PN service performed over 300 missions which lasted 500+ flight hours. According to RAS, the PN has the intention to convert three more ATR-72s into MPA configuration but it depends upon budget allocations.

The RAS 72 Sea Eagle Multirole MPA with ASW capabilities is equipped with the Leonardo Seaspray 7300E Active Electronically-Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Elettronica ESM/ELINT suite, FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE III high definition electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret. The platform also features an Acoustic Processing System, Sonobuoy Launching System, Chaff and Flare Dispensing System, Ku-Band satellite communications (SatCom) system, AIS transponder, Direction Finder, IFF, a PN specific indigenous data link system and two weapon hard-points for Italian lightweight ASW torpedoes enabling anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and maritime patrol capabilities. According to RAS officials, thanks to its modular concept the operator consoles onboard the RAS 72 Sea Egle MPA can be pulled out from the cabin within 2 hours. RAS officials also underlined that the platform features a semi glass cockpit and uprated engine (which offers the same performance as the ATR-72/600 version).

The sensors onboard the aircraft are integrated through the Aerodata AG’s AeroMission Mission Management System running on four multifunctional operator consoles. The AeroMission Mission Management System includes a sensor fusion algorithm and can compile feeds from each sensor to build a complete situational awareness picture for the crew. Due to its onboard communications abilities the RAS 72 Sea Eagle is able to transmit all the information captured on-board in real-time to the dedicated command center.



Excerpt from:

Seen and Heard at the International Paris Air Show 2019 | defenceturkey.com
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ

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## khanasifm

Z-20 vs sh-60

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## Ultima Thule

khanasifm said:


> Z-20 vs sh-60
> 
> View attachment 586220
> 
> 
> View attachment 586221


Don't compare fully developed heli to Z-20 which is still in early phase of developments @khanasifm


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## Shabi1

Falcon26 said:


> how significant is the absence of MAD on the Sea Eagles?


Turkish ATR MPAs with MAD. Don't know why PN hasnt acquired the ability as well in its ATRs, or they could be part of a later upgrade.

https://turkishnavy.net/2017/06/10/end-in-sight-for-meltem-project/

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## Sulman Badshah

Shabi1 said:


> Turkish ATR MPAs with MAD. Don't know why PN hasnt acquired the ability as well in its ATRs, or they could be part of a later upgrade.
> 
> https://turkishnavy.net/2017/06/10/end-in-sight-for-meltem-project/


Before upgrading our ATR by RAS Germany.. we went through Turkish upgrades as well 

PN preferred RAS over turkish one

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## Rashid Mahmood

MAD Sensor is only used as a confirmation sensor and not a classification sensor.
Active and Passive sono-buoys are most accurate for classification.

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## Inception-06

Rashid Mahmood said:


> MAD Sensor is only used as a confirmation sensor and not a classification sensor.
> Active and Passive sono-buoys are most accurate for classification.



What types of chinese C series Anti ship missiles is in our inventory ?


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## Gryphon

Inception-06 said:


> What types of chinese C series Anti ship missiles is in our inventory ?



C-802, C-802A = On PN's 4x Zulfiquar-class frigates, 2x Azmat (Block-I) FAC-M, 2x Jalalat and 2x Jurrat-class FACs.

C-602 (Zarb) land-based AShM = Operated by NSFC.

C-802AK = PAF JF-17s.

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## syed_yusuf

Gryphon said:


> C-802, C-802A = On PN's 4x Zulfiquar-class frigates, 2x Azmat (Block-I) FAC-M, 2x Jalalat and 2x Jurrat-class FACs.
> 
> C-602 (Zarb) land-based AShM = Operated by NSFC.
> 
> C-802AK = PAF JF-17s.


And cm400akg

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## aziqbal

the navy needs 12-18 medium sized helicopters in the class of new modern Z18 

dont know why we aren't buying them 

2 of the Type 054AP should have been modified with larger hangers to accommodate Z18 sized helicopters 

a medium sized Z18 class optimised for ASW would add considerable capability to our surface warships 

rest can be used from land facility's 

our naval rotary wing is very outdated

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## khanasifm

So older ships use older heli and new ships use new z9
Looks like with induction of type 054 new heli will be required at some more especially after all Turkish and type 054 and damen ship are received 



https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/pakistan/navy

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## Michel Niesten

Dear forum members,

I have a question regarding the Pakistan Navy ATR’s. 2 of them had the Sea Eagle conversion at RAS company at Mönchengladbach, close to where I live (in Germany that is). At the time the second ATR was in conversion, a second one, in primer, was also there. Registration T7-NWW, constructionnumber 768. 
This one was delivered to Turkey years ago, but returned to Alenia, when Turkey opted for another version.
Rumours say that this ATR also went to Pakistan. Is this correct? It left Mönchengladbach in July 2018. After a fuelstop in Egypt, there is no trace of this aircraft. 

With kind regards,

Michel Niesten

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## Inception-06

Michel Niesten said:


> Dear forum members,
> 
> I have a question regarding the Pakistan Navy ATR’s. 2 of them had the Sea Eagle conversion at RAS company at Mönchengladbach, close to where I live (in Germany that is). At the time the second ATR was in conversion, a second one, in primer, was also there. Registration T7-NWW, constructionnumber 768.
> This one was delivered to Turkey years ago, but returned to Alenia, when Turkey opted for another version.
> Rumours say that this ATR also went to Pakistan. Is this correct? It left Mönchengladbach in July 2018. After a fuelstop in Egypt, there is no trace of this aircraft.
> 
> With kind regards,
> 
> Michel Niesten



Unserem Wissen nach, sind nur zwei Flugzeuge gekauft und in Deutschland umgerüstet worden, eine dritte und weitere Maschine zu kaufen sind nur Überlegungen aber noch nicht Planung. Beste Grüße ! Warum fragen Sie ?


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## syed_yusuf

Inception-06 said:


> Unser wissen nach, sind nur zwei Flugzeuge gekauft und in Deutschland umgerüstet worden, eine dritte und weitere Maschine zu kaufen sind nur Überlegungen aber noch nicht Planung. Beste Grüße !



As far as we know, only two aircraft have been bought and converted in Germany, a third and further machine are only considerations but not yet planned. Best regards !

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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> As far as we know, only two aircraft have been bought and converted in Germany, a third and further machine are only considerations but not yet planned. Best regards !



thx was short in time to translate it in English, shukria !

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## Michel Niesten

Inception-06 said:


> Unserem Wissen nach, sind nur zwei Flugzeuge gekauft und in Deutschland umgerüstet worden, eine dritte und weitere Maschine zu kaufen sind nur Überlegungen aber noch nicht Planung. Beste Grüße ! Warum fragen Sie ?



Because there are a lot of rumours about this particular aircraft, but no confirmation about this aircraft. Nobody seems to know where it went, and Pakistan is mentioned. Not as Sea Eagle, but as passenger aircraft for the Navy 
(I could also answer in German, but at this forum almost nobody will understand)

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## Dazzler



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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2368

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## Windjammer



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## Aamir Hussain

If i remember it correctly, 2 Orions were written off in the PNS Mehran Raid. Then count of Maritime Patrol A/C is back up to 9 with the addition of 2 ATR's to the Orion Fleet.


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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> If i remember it correctly, 2 Orions were written off in the PNS Mehran Raid. Then count of Maritime Patrol A/C is back up to 9 with the addition of 2 ATR's to the Orion Fleet.


Different roles though. The P3C is a long range MPA / ASW type whilst the ATR is more of a coastal waters MPA.

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## Aamir Hussain

fatman17 said:


> Different roles though. The P3C is a long range MPA / ASW type whilst the ATR is more of a coastal waters MPA.


 Yes true Orion is an LRMP platform.


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## Michel Niesten

So at the moment there are 2 converted ATR-72 Sea Eagles in service, and one normal passenger/cargo ATR-72?

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## Michel Niesten

I finally found out what happened to the ATR72 that I was looking for. It is flying for the Pakistan Navy, with serial 76.
So the Navy has 4 ATR72 in its inventory, 2 Sea Eagle, and 2 in a normal passenger/cargo configuration

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## Haris Ali2140

Michel Niesten said:


> I finally found out what happened to the ATR72 that I was looking for. It is flying for the Pakistan Navy, with serial 76.
> So the Navy has 4 ATR72 in its inventory, 2 Sea Eagle, and 2 in a normal passenger/cargo configuration


You should tag some senior members if you want to know something.


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## Michel Niesten

Haris Ali2140 said:


> You should tag some senior members if you want to know something.



I am not that familiar with the forum yet. But thanks for the advice

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## Cornered Tiger

Aamir Hussain said:


> If i remember it correctly, 2 Orions were written off in the PNS Mehran Raid.



One was repaired in-house. So total P-3Cs are 8 now. 

Visit here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-p-3c-orion-thread.56081/page-40#post-8819335


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## Imran Khan

Cornered Tiger said:


> One was repaired in-house. So total P-3Cs are 8 now.
> 
> Visit here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-p-3c-orion-thread.56081/page-40#post-8819335


which one of these two is repairable ?


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## Haris Ali2140

Imran Khan said:


> which one of these two is repairable ?


I see only one.


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## Imran Khan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I see only one.


look again sir you will find engine and landing ear left . it was burnt till core .


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## Haris Ali2140

Imran Khan said:


> look again sir you will find engine and landing ear left . it was burnt till core .


Sarcasm.


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## GriffinsRule

Michel Niesten said:


> I finally found out what happened to the ATR72 that I was looking for. It is flying for the Pakistan Navy, with serial 76.
> So the Navy has 4 ATR72 in its inventory, 2 Sea Eagle, and 2 in a normal passenger/cargo configuration


Any picture of the said ATR? Also what was its civilian registration before PN acquired it?


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## Michel Niesten

GriffinsRule said:


> Any picture of the said ATR? Also what was its civilian registration before PN acquired it?



It was registered I-EASD when ferried to Mönchengladbach for some work carried out. There it was re-registered T7-NWW. With that registration it was ferried to Pakistan

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## GriffinsRule

Michel Niesten said:


> It was registered I-EASD when ferried to Mönchengladbach for some work carried out. There it was re-registered T7-NWW. With that registration it was ferried to Pakistan


Thanks, appreciate it

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## syed_yusuf

It seems pn is going for 2 more upgraded atr72


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> It was registered I-EASD when ferried to Mönchengladbach for some work carried out. There it was re-registered T7-NWW. With that registration it was ferried to Pakistan


It makes sense because according to RAS they are expecting further order from PN for atleast 1 or may be 2 aircrafts ( Paris Airshow 2019 ) after delivering two already .


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## khanasifm

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> It makes sense because according to RAS they are expecting further order from PN for atleast 1 or may be 2 aircrafts ( Paris Airshow 2019 ) after delivering two already .



Replacing all foker in transport as well as asw/mpa role means between 6-8 aircraft if going one for one [emoji121]️

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## Michel Niesten

khanasifm said:


> Replacing all foker in transport as well as asw/mpa role means between 6-8 aircraft if going one for one [emoji121]️



But it all depends on budget available.

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## araz

Michel Niesten said:


> But it all depends on budget available.


You have nailed this argument on its head. In an environment of resource constraints it will need the PN to ascertain where the project stands in its priority list. Cost of maintenance and running costs of the different platforms as well as timelines of various other projects coming on line and payments on other loans for these projects will be deciding factors. I think that for PN it is more a question of when than yes or not.
A


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## Gryphon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I see only one.



3× P-3 aircraft were targeted in PNS Mehran attack - 2 w/o, 1 damaged and later repaired (#81).


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## Haris Ali2140

Gryphon said:


> 3× P-3 aircraft were targeted in PNS Mehran attack - 2 w/o, 1 damaged and later repaired (#81).


It was sarcasm.


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

RAS-72 Sea Eagle and LUNA NG. Photo Source: Pakistan Navy
Daily News
Jan 5, 2020 Bilal Khan -
*PAKISTAN NAVY OFFICIALLY INDUCTS ATR-72 MPA AND LUNA NG UAV*
ShareTweet


On 04 January 2020, the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) Director General of Public Relations announced that the PN officially inducted “marinized” ATR-72 aircraft and LUNA NG unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

Though the PN showed two ATR-72 aircraft, only one of them was configured as a maritime patrol aircraft (MPA). This aircraft was from the conversion order the PN awarded to Rheinland Air Service (RAS) in 2016 – the first of these re-configured MPAs was inducted in December 2018.

The PN’s ATR-72 MPA is also known as the RAS-72 Sea Eagle. The RAS-72 Sea Eagle is configured with the Leonardo Seaspray 7300E active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, FLIR Systems’ Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret, and Elettronica’s electronic support measures (ESM) suite.

Tying these systems together is Aerodata AG’s AeroMission mission management suite. AeroMission has a sensor fusion algorithm, which offers the RAS-72 crew with situational awareness across multiple areas.

The RAS-72 is also capable of anti-submarine warfare (ASW), it can deploy lightweight ASW torpedoes.

The second newly inducted ATR-72 is not an MPA, but it will operate in a “cargo/para-drop role [that] will provide added flexibility to the (PN’s) Special Forces’ operations.”

As for the LUNA NG, its manufacturer – EMT Penzberg – terms it as a “tactical unmanned aircraft system” (TUAS). With a take-off weight of 110 kg, the LUNA NG is a lightweight UAV, but its payload options include synthetic aperture radar (SAR), signals intelligence (SIGINT), ESM, and EO/IR. It can fly for over 12 hours.

The PN said it will use the LUNA NG to monitor its creeks and coastal areas. The PN also announced that its long-term development plans include the “acquisition of Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAV).”

The UCAV could be in reference to the PN’s reported interest in the Turkish Aerospace Anka-S during the 2018 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS).

https://quwa.org/2020/01/05/pakistan-navy-officially-inducts-atr-72-mpa-and-luna-ng-uav/



Michel Niesten said:


> It was registered I-EASD when ferried to Mönchengladbach for some work carried out. There it was re-registered T7-NWW. With that registration it was ferried to Pakistan


We inducted another ATR-72 on 4th January 2020 apart from MPA ATR-72 . so i think u were right .

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## Michel Niesten

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> We inducted another ATR-72 on 4th January 2020 apart from MPA ATR-72 . so i think u were right .



I saw a photo of that aircraft with serial number 76. That is the new one I was looking for indeed.

Now I hope funds will be available soon, so some ATR’s will be upgraded to Sea Eagle.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> I saw a photo of that aircraft with serial number 76. That is the new one I was looking for indeed.
> 
> Now I hope funds will be available soon, so some ATR’s will be upgraded to Sea Eagle.


According RAS they expecting follow up order of 2 or atleast 1 ATR for MPA upgrades from Pakistan ( i saw a video on youtube where it was shown at Paris Airshow and RAS representative said it )



Michel Niesten said:


> But it all depends on budget available.


Out of 7 Fokker we have 4 in MPA role ( according to wikipedia ) and 3 in transport ( wikipedia ) so 4 RAS MPA ATR-72 will be fine for now in place of 4-5 fokker MPA as according to QUWA CNS said Pakistan is also looking for LRMPA .



khanasifm said:


> Replacing all foker in transport as well as asw/mpa role means between 6-8 aircraft if going one for one [emoji121]️


Not all fokkers are in MPA role according to wikipedia and these RAS MPAs are new tech so 4 or 5 will be fine in place of 7 fokkers ( 4 fokkers MPAs n 3 Transport fokkers > wikipedia ) .


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/2455

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/1108

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## nomi007

although its japnese p-3c orion
bur how its work

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

According to President and CEO of Aerodata AG we are expecting further order of 2 or atleast 1 ATR conversion to MPA role by Pakistan .

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## khanasifm

There 4 fokers so 4 atr expected to replace them plus another 2 in training /transport role


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## Avid Aviator

khanasifm said:


> There 4 fokers so 4 atr expected to replace them plus another 2 in training /transport role


Fokkers are officially retired(phased out) today, a phasing out ceremony held today.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> According to President and CEO of Aerodata AG we are expecting further order of 2 or atleast 1 ATR conversion to MPA role by Pakistan .


How many would then be the total?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How many would then be the total?


2 are delivered by RAS n Aerodata ( 1 in 2018 n 1 in 2019 ) and are inducted in PN ( 1 in dec 2018 and 2nd on 4th Jan 2020 ) > these are RAS MPA with 2 hard points not transport , in transport we have 2 so total is 2 MPA , 2 transport , now according to aerodata they are expecting 2 or 1 more from Pakistan which will take MPA numbers to 3 or 4 ( but in my view minimum ATR in MPA role required by Pakistan is 4 so 2 but depend of budget , may be 1 now in 2020 n 1 later ) .

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Fokkers are retired ( Phased out ) from PN , Official ceremony was held on 21, January, 2020 .
Sources

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Fokkers are retired ( Phased out ) from PN , Official ceremony was held on 21, January, 2020 .
> Sources
> View attachment 601698
> View attachment 601699


We should now look for P3C replacement


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We should now look for P3C replacement


According to QUWA PN will look for LRMP Aircraft to replace P3Cs ( Which have still some years left in them > so in future ) while RAS MPAs are not LRMP and are being inducted in place of Atlanic n now Fokkers .


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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> According to QUWA PN will look for LRMP Aircraft to replace P3Cs ( Which have still some years left in them > so in future ) while RAS MPAs are not LRMP and are being inducted in place of Atlanic n now Fokkers .


@airomerix was saying PN was looking for Swordfish.


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @airomerix was saying PN was looking for Swordfish.


According to QUWA or Bilal sir comment i saw somewhere Swordfish is abondoned i.e not available for now.
For details check this https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ffort-for-swordfish-maritime-plane-on-hiatus/


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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> According to QUWA or Bilal sir comment i saw somewhere Swordfish is abondoned i.e not available for now.
> For detail check this https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ffort-for-swordfish-maritime-plane-on-hiatus/


Yeah. Countries are replacing P3Cs with P8s

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## Tipu7

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @airomerix was saying PN was looking for Swordfish.


Sweden refused to sell Swordfish to Pakistan due to Indian pressure. Saab has a foolish assumption that India will choose Gripen as winner of its MRCA.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Sweden refused to sell Swordfish to Pakistan due to Indian pressure. Saab has a foolish assumption that India will choose Gripen as winner of its MRCA.


When you desperate U make mistakes that what Saab did indian economy is in crisis I doubt they will buy western option probably Russian or LCA what U think other options are? Navy Cheif once said about P8 too when he visited US.

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## khanasifm

Not sure if Japanese asw is itar free ?? And price wise affordable ?


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## syed_yusuf

What is ITAR ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Sweden refused to sell Swordfish to Pakistan due to Indian pressure. Saab has a foolish assumption that India will choose Gripen as winner of its MRCA.


IMO ... I think we'll see a working alternative from Leonardo or RAS in 2-3 years.

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## khail007

syed_yusuf said:


> What is ITAR ?


International Traffic in Arms Regulations (*ITAR*).


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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> What is ITAR ?




http://www.lulu.com/shop/department...anuary-1-2013/paperback/product-21048604.html


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## Shabi1

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We should now look for P3C replacement


Besides P-8 there is no direct replacement option for P-3C that can offer the similar offensive punch and the endurance. P-3Cs are indispensable and in many ways even the P-8 isnt a worthy replacement. PN wants a jet option, will have to wait and see, maybe there will be more options cropping up from a supplier. 

Personally hoping the Chinese come up with their own equivalent so the platform would be able to carry the Chinese AShM or indigenous options as well as be able to datalink with PNs expected revamped surface assets. I also see long endurance UAVs taking over work load from ASW planes as well.
Not a priority now because of other inductions, who knows couple of years from now maybe PN embarks on JV for a customized platform with a EU based supplier. As off the shelf solution for PN unlikely.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Shabi1 said:


> jet option


Means?


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## Shabi1

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Means?


From interviews it is clear that whatever replacement there will be for a the P-3 it will be a jet powered aircraft and not turbo prop.

Since P-8s are unlikely for PN, this leaves the in development A319MPA for PN, being a EU aircraft PN can have it customized and since PIA extensively operates and is inducting more A320s it would be easy to maintain.

The A319MPA is still in development (with France, Germany, Turkey as potential clients) was pitched to India as well but they chose the P-8 instead, so the suppliers can not be bullied to not sell to Pakistan.

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## Yasser76

Shabi1 said:


> From interviews it is clear that whatever replacement there will be for a the P-3 it will be a jet powered aircraft and not turbo prop.
> 
> Since P-8s are unlikely for PN, this leaves the in development A319MPA for PN, being a EU aircraft PN can have it customized and since PIA extensively operates and is inducting more A320s it would be easy to maintain.
> 
> The A319MPA is still in development (with France, Germany, Turkey as potential clients) was pitched to India as well but they chose the P-8 instead, so the suppliers can not be bullied to not sell to Pakistan.




This seems like a good option, and now that PN has experiance of essentially integrating European kit into European airframes with the ATR MPAs for its medium range MPA it may well decide this is a good option for it's long range heavyweight MPAs. Only issue here PN will become first and only operator in the world of this

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## Tank131

Shabi1 said:


> Besides P-8 there is no direct replacement option for P-3C that can offer the similar offensive punch and the endurance. P-3Cs are indispensable and in many ways even the P-8 isnt a worthy replacement. PN wants a jet option, will have to wait and see, maybe there will be more options cropping up from a supplier.
> 
> Personally hoping the Chinese come up with their own equivalent so the platform would be able to carry the Chinese AShM or indigenous options as well as be able to datalink with PNs expected revamped surface assets. I also see long endurance UAVs taking over work load from ASW planes as well.
> Not a priority now because of other inductions, who knows couple of years from now maybe PN embarks on JV for a customized platform with a EU based supplier. As off the shelf solution for PN unlikely.



Actually the chinese have a good option for replacing P-3C except its a turboprop which frankly is more economical. The Y-8Q aka Y-8GX6. The name is a bit misleading as it is actually on a Y-9 platform but it has a powerful AESA radar, a modern acoustics suite, the largest MAD in the world, can carry over 100 Sonobuey, and 6-8 heavy torpedos or C-802 AShM.

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## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... I think we'll see a working alternative from Leonardo or RAS in 2-3 years.



Interesting discussions and speculative assessments on future of PN MPA. However reality is a tad different to what everyone is saying here. All I can divulge at this stage is that PN has already begun the process for a new MPA. But now is not the time to say more. But interesting thread and I’ll keep any eye on it.

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## araz

mingle said:


> When you desperate U make mistakes that what Saab did indian economy is in crisis I doubt they will buy western option probably Russian or LCA what U think other options are? Navy Cheif once said about P8 too when he visited US.


Once they get rejected they may come back. The point is it is sensible for them to remain in contention by not upsetting their client for the moment. The IAF procurement cycles are beyond comprehension as they have just sunk 8 billion in a twin engine fighter. Now they are out to get a single engine fighter. It tells me either Tejas is not upto the mark and rejected by IAF oe they are out to make some money by setting up a competition eating a lot of bakhshish and then either going for more Rafales or developing the Tejas. 
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> Interesting discussions and speculative assessments on future of PN MPA. However reality is a tad different to what everyone is saying here. All I can divulge at this stage is that PN has already begun the process for a new MPA. But now is not the time to say more. But interesting thread and I’ll keep any eye on it.


It'll never happen, but I do like the Kawasaki P1.

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## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll never happen, but I do like the Kawasaki P1.



Lets talk again in 24 months or so

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## mingle

PAR 5 said:


> Interesting discussions and speculative assessments on future of PN MPA. However reality is a tad different to what everyone is saying here. All I can divulge at this stage is that PN has already begun the process for a new MPA. But now is not the time to say more. But interesting thread and I’ll keep any eye on it.


Just give us hint??? Not Swedes I believe not yanks but who knows American are generous ppl can open door anytime



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll never happen, but I do like the Kawasaki P1.


Bilal what will be price?? Kawasaki P1 and P8 let's see.


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## syed_yusuf

is there a jet base chinese option

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> is there a jet base chinese option


I doubt


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## Dazzler

syed_yusuf said:


> is there a jet base chinese option



In future perhaps, not at the moment. Y8 Q is the platform that is being developed/ tested.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Just give us hint??? Not Swedes I believe not yanks but who knows American are generous ppl can open door anytime
> 
> 
> Bilal what will be price?? Kawasaki P1 and P8 let's see.


I doubt a Kawasaki P1 would come for anything less than $300 m per plane (including logistics, training, support or maintenance package, and maybe torpedoes/missiles). I think $350 m US per plane would be realistic (considering the R&D overhead and lack of economies-of-scale vs. the P-8).

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## Michel Niesten

I don’t know the exact cost per plane, but it seems the unit price of a P-1 is about half of the P-8. The P-1 was also offered to some European countries, with some possible cooperation with Airbus, which has no long range Maritime Patrol in their portfolio.

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## Shabi1

Tank131 said:


> Actually the chinese have a good option for replacing P-3C except its a turboprop which frankly is more economical. The Y-8Q aka Y-8GX6. The name is a bit misleading as it is actually on a Y-9 platform but it has a powerful AESA radar, a modern acoustics suite, the largest MAD in the world, can carry over 100 Sonobuey, and 6-8 heavy torpedos or C-802 AShM.


Yes that is the best option in my opinion as well but PN officials want a jet.

Difference is Turboprop more efficient at lower speeds lower altitude while Turbojet gets more efficient at higher altitude and higher speeds.

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## Falcon26

Pakistan has better chances of getting the F-22 than the P-1. Japan will never do anything to jeopardize relations with India which it sees as a bulwark against China. Pakistan’s engagement with japan will be limited to used Suzukis. Don’t even bother that direction.

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## fatman17

South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois. 
Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois.
> Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.


If Navy or PAF gets twin engine heavy strike Jett around 45 to 56 in number along JF-17 will neutralize Indian edge on this side. Lets see any j series or SU or F15 eagle will change the balance on other front PN is going fine and smooth.



Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan has better chances of getting the F-22 than the P-1. Japan will never do anything to jeopardize relations with India which it sees as a bulwark against China. Pakistan’s engagement with japan will be limited to used Suzukis. Don’t even bother that direction.


Some what is right but they all know india too how capable they are and willing to take sides


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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois.
> Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.


I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.

Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.

PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.

Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.

In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.

It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.

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## Dazzler



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## CHI RULES

Shabi1 said:


> I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.
> 
> Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.
> 
> PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.
> 
> Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.
> 
> In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.
> 
> It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.



Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in *Operation Trident* Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country. 

I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.


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## Shabi1

CHI RULES said:


> Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in *Operation Trident* Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country.
> 
> I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
> We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.



Operation Tridant tactics cannot be used again as PN now has long range coastal missile batteries and AWACs patrols.


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## Imran Khan

finally our P3-C find anew home at safe and secure open location at turbat

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## CHI RULES

Shabi1 said:


> Operation Tridant tactics cannot be used again as PN now has long range coastal missile batteries and AWACs patrols.



Now our enemy also has better ranged missiles and tech as well. PN needs to take steps for long range air cover of coastal area if not on ships in short to medium term.


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## fatman17

The most cost effective replacement for PNs venerable Sea Kings. 

Z-8J/S/JH/CJ Super Frelon


Z-8 is a land or ship based ASW/SAR helicopter based upon French SA-321JaSuper Frelon (13 were bought in the late 70s). The helicopter was developed in the 80s by Changhe Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CHAIC) and gave the Chinese valuable experience of building a medium-sized helicopter. Its maximum TO weight is 13t, cruise speed 248km/hr, ferry range 1,400km, service ceiling 3,050m. Its power plant are 3 WZ-6 turboshafts. For ASW mission, Z-8 is equipped with a surface search radar, French HS-12 dipping sonar while carrying a Whitehead A244S/ET52 torpedo under the starboard side of the fuselage. It might also carry YJ-83K ASMs for anti-ship mission.Several variants were developed for PLAN including Z-8J (S/N 95x6, 95x7) transport helicopter which was first introduced in 2002. A naval SAR version called Z-8S (S/N 91x7) with upgraded avionics and a search light, a FLIR turret and a hoist first flew on December 25, 2004. At least two have been delivered to PLAN. Another SAR variant with dedicated medical equipment onboard was also developed for the Navy as Z-8JH (S/N 95x6). Four are in service with PLAN. Some were installed with a nose FLIR turret and additional external pylons to carry rocket and gun pods for anti-piracy operations.Recent image (September 2018) indicated acrash position indicator (CPI) was installed under Z-8J/JH's tail boom. At least two Z-8Js (S/N 9566, 9576) and two Z-8JHs (S/N 9516,9546) were seen onboard the aircraft carrier Liaoning for the SAR purpose. The naval Z-8series is expected to be replaced by the newZ-18. A recent image (September 2016) suggested that an improved transport/SAR variant (Z-8CJ, S/N 84x0x) has beendeveloped for PLAN which features a nose mounted weather radar, FLIR, a search light, a stretched engine compartment aft the main rotor plus a crash position indicator (CPI) installed under its tail boom. 

- Last Updated 2/1/20

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## fatman17

Filed under Equipment Tagged with logistic support ship, Pakistani Navy, Turkey

*Turkey Helps Pakistan To Recover The Wreck Of The Lost Helicopter*
7 Sep 2018




The photo of the search and rescue team before their departure to Pakistan. Photo: Turkish Navy

One Sea King helicopter of Pakistani Navy crashed to the Arabian Sea on 31st August 2018. According to Pakistani Navy, the helicopter was conducting routine training operations when lost. 3 sailors were rescued and one dead were recovered. Pakistan asked Turkey to help to locate the wreck and recover the bodies of the 3 missing aircrews.

I DID NOT KNOW THIS!

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## niaz

Sea King is essentially Sikorsky SH3 which first flew in 1959 and was retired by the US in 2006. Z-8 is based on SA321 Super Felon which on the other hand first flew in 1962. Hence both the Sea King and Z-8 are based upon 60-year-old design.

Admittedly the freshly built Z-8 would have a lot of operational life left. Z-8 is also a bit faster with slightly longer range and more load carry capacity. Should these minor advantages justify the investment in replacing the entire Sea King fleet, yes it is probably the cheapest option.

Personally, I would stick with Sea King until Pak Navy can afford a truly modern helicopter such as the naval version of NH90 ( NHFH) or Augusta Wetland ASW 101 model 100/101. If the cash restraint continues, I would opt for the Z-18F development of Z-8.

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## LKJ86

fatman17 said:


> The most cost effective replacement for PNs venerable Sea Kings.
> 
> Z-8J/S/JH/CJ Super Frelon


Why not Z-8L?

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## Imran Khan

why new helicopter it will be better to get more z9s

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> why new helicopter it will be better to get more z9s


Z9er is ASW while SeaKing and Z8 are multirole ASW/SAR/CasEvac/Troop



LKJ86 said:


> Why not Z-8L?
> View attachment 603400
> View attachment 603398
> View attachment 603399



not tried and tested.



niaz said:


> Sea King is essentially Sikorsky SH3 which first flew in 1959 and was retired by the US in 2006. Z-8 is based on SA321 Super Felon on the other hand first flew in 1962. Hence both the Sea King and Z-8 are based upon 60-year-old design.
> 
> Admittedly the freshly built Z-8 would have a lot of operational life left. Z-8 is also a bit faster with slightly longer range and more load carry capacity. Should these minor advantages justify the investment in replacing the entire Sea King fleet, yes it is probably the cheapest option.
> 
> Personally, I would stick with Sea King until Pak Navy can afford a truly modern helicopter such as the naval version of NH90 ( NHFH) or Augusta Wetland ASW 101 model 100/101. If the cash restraint continues, I would opt for the Z-18F development of Z-8.



the NH90 and the AW101 price range is prohibitive $90-100m per plus infrastructure and training costs irrespective of the cash restraints.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Z9er is ASW while SeaKing and Z8 are multirole ASW/SAR/CasEvac/Troop
> 
> 
> 
> not tried and tested.
> 
> 
> 
> the NH90 and the AW101 price range is prohibitive $90-100m per plus infrastructure and training costs irrespective of the cash restraints.


i know it sir but for now we have no good options in hand we can stick on z9s untill we have some decent offer

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> i know it sir but for now we have no good options in hand we can stick on z9s untill we have some decent offer



true indeed. don't expect any progress as PN has upgraded its SeaKings plus purchased additional frames from the UK

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## Tipu7

Imran Khan said:


> why new helicopter it will be better to get more z9s


Navy is keeping Z9 only because it got no other option. Z9 has turned out to be a highly maintainance prone helicopter which suffers from limited range and payload capacity. Therefore, under no circumstances, PN will look towards more Z9s. In fact the entire rotary fleet of PN is either obsolete or is suffering from limited operational capacity. Hence, we will see some new helicopters in navy, hopefully soon. AW101 (even AW139 as long-term future replacement of Z9) is leading but expensive option.

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## Imran Khan

Tipu7 said:


> Navy is keeping Z9 only because it got no other option. Z9 has turned out to be a highly maintainance prone helicopter which suffers from limited range and payload capacity. Therefore, under no circumstances, PN will look towards more Z9s. In fact the entire rotary fleet of PN is either obsolete or is suffering from limited operational capacity. Hence, we will see some new helicopters in navy, hopefully soon. AW101 (even AW139 as long-term future replacement of Z9) is leading but expensive option.


200+ z9s are in service of some 12 countries sir never heard such problems .


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## Tipu7

Imran Khan said:


> 200+ z9s are in service of some 12 countries sir never heard such problems .


Sir we live in Pakistan. Ever heard such complaints from even our own navy? Lack of complaint does not indicate the existence of satisfaction in every case.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/2455

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## khanasifm

Tipu7 said:


> Navy is keeping Z9 only because it got no other option. Z9 has turned out to be a highly maintainance prone helicopter which suffers from limited range and payload capacity. Therefore, under no circumstances, PN will look towards more Z9s. In fact the entire rotary fleet of PN is either obsolete or is suffering from limited operational capacity. Hence, we will see some new helicopters in navy, hopefully soon. AW101 (even AW139 as long-term future replacement of Z9) is leading but expensive option.



Comparing a 4 ton class heli with 7/8 class does not make sense almost twice 

Keep in mind z9 was a jump from 2 ton heli to 4 ton z9 are prove French design but not sure how Chinese version come across 

Z9 French version provide heli lift to US coast guard and many other navy as being twin engin with range of approximately 400 plus km and ferry range of 800 plus meets its class requirements and can be Accommodated on smaller ships and boats 

Aw139 is better but with 7/8 tons may not be options for smaller ships with pn like f22p etc 

Anyway maintenance problem are due to Chinese support or something ? because French copy built is over 1000 plus in active service both military and civilian versions same as as-139

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## fatman17

Exercise Barracuda-X Organized by Pakistan Maritime Security Agency

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019 



Multi-national Exercise Barracuda-X - an oil spill control and anti-piracy - organized by Pakistan Maritime Security Agency (PMSA). The exercise was held from December 2 to December 4 in Arabian Sea near Karachi.

Air and surface assets of the PMSA, Pakistan Navy, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and others participated in the sea phase of the exercise.

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## Cookie Monster

CHI RULES said:


> Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in *Operation Trident* Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country.
> 
> I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
> We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.


By the next decade...all the assets in the pipeline for the surface fleet(Type 054, Milgem, etc.) would be fully operational along with the subs(upgraded 3 Agosta90s and the 8 Chinese ones). The subs(armed with torpedoes and SLCM such as Babur and potentially even the supersonic cruise missiles under development) and coastal batteries will form a formidable A2AD zone in Pak waters. All that's needed is the rumored J15(modified to take off from land)...a squadron or two of those(with support assets such as AWACS, MPAs, etc.) and IN would find it really hard to establish superiority over PN and impose a blockade.


Shabi1 said:


> I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.
> 
> Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.
> 
> PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.
> 
> Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.
> 
> In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.
> 
> It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.


No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...
...adequate progress has been made in this regard...next up the focus should be towards building a potent air arm. JF17s armed with antiship cruise missiles(C802 or CM400 AKG) is a considerable threat for IN surface fleet. There's also rumored interest of PN in acquiring J15(without carrier specific modifications). A squadron of J15s with a squadron of JF17s in antiship role would be a significant threat to IN surface fleet if it tries to get near Pak waters.

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## Shabi1

Cookie Monster said:


> By the next decade...all the assets in the pipeline for the surface fleet(Type 054, Milgem, etc.) would be fully operational along with the subs(upgraded 3 Agosta90s and the 8 Chinese ones). The subs(armed with torpedoes and SLCM such as Babur and potentially even the supersonic cruise missiles under development) and coastal batteries will form a formidable A2AD zone in Pak waters. All that's needed is the rumored J15(modified to take off from land)...a squadron or two of those(with support assets such as AWACS, MPAs, etc.) and IN would find it really hard to establish superiority over PN and impose a blockade.
> 
> No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...
> ...adequate progress has been made in this regard...next up the focus should be towards building a potent air arm. JF17s armed with antiship cruise missiles(C802 or CM400 AKG) is a considerable threat for IN surface fleet. There's also rumored interest of PN in acquiring J15(without carrier specific modifications). A squadron of J15s with a squadron of JF17s in antiship role would be a significant threat to IN surface fleet if it tries to get near Pak waters.



Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.








FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.

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## Cookie Monster

Shabi1 said:


> Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
> Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.


I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.

Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.

The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.

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## Zephyrus

Shabi1 said:


> Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
> Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.




I think those are torpedoes and not sidewinders 



Cookie Monster said:


> I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.
> 
> Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.
> 
> The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.



And that is exactly why Pakistan naval aviation works in close conjunction with Pakistan air Force. Furthermore the air superiority fighters don't have the required sensors onboard to fight in a cluttered radar environment.


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## CHI RULES

Cookie Monster said:


> I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.
> 
> Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.
> 
> The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.



Sir no navy can totally overcome threats untill and unless the opposition is naive enough, however in case of Indo Pak scenario even the assets with lesser capabilities can be more effective, i.e If PN adopts path of Iran as we cannot afford to have surface assets on one to one basis, then even if PN is able to get and deploy stealth FACs with speeds 45+ Knots and ASHMS can pose serious threat to IN surface and naval assets.

However for time being we should focus on present position and it is quite evident that both PA and PN lack in long range/high altitude SAMs. Pak should address this issue first to minimize losses in case of any near future conflict.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Cookie Monster said:


> No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...


P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets



Cookie Monster said:


> J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.


Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks


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## CHI RULES

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets
> 
> 
> Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
> View attachment 604336
> View attachment 604337


Air to Air refueling is the simple answer for JF17


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## Cookie Monster

CHI RULES said:


> Sir no navy can totally overcome threats untill and unless the opposition is naive enough, however in case of Indo Pak scenario even the assets with lesser capabilities can be more effective, i.e If PN adopts path of Iran as we cannot afford to have surface assets on one to one basis, then even if PN is able to get and deploy stealth FACs with speeds 45+ Knots and ASHMS can pose serious threat to IN surface and naval assets.
> 
> However for time being we should focus on present position and it is quite evident that both PA and PN lack in long range/high altitude SAMs. Pak should address this issue first to minimize losses in case of any near future conflict.


Of course LRSAMs are also needed...it's up to Pak armed forces...they know better what to prioritize based on the threats Pak is facing.

As for Iran's strategy of having large numbers of fast attack crafts armed with antiship missiles...I'm not going to say whether it is a good strategy or bad strategy...I would just say that to my knowledge it is untested in practice. Antiship missiles are deadly...but in order to launch and guide them towards a target, u must first acquire a target on radar. This makes FAC ill equipped if they go up against an IN frigate for example(or any other relatively large sized ship with a more powerful radar). The enemy ship will see first and shoot first and the FAC will be taken out before it even sees a target.

However in modern warfare it seems very unlikely that a FAC will be operating like that...it is more likely that it will be operating with many other systems in the theatre. In that case the targeting information can be provided by some other asset(a drone, P3C, etc.) and the FAC can fire its antiship missile, which can be guided(by the radar which is tracking it) using datalink...until the missile's own target acquisition method can take over. In that case...the FAC just ends up serving as a launch platform and doesn't offer much other than that.

I'm not trying to belittle FACs...they have their role to play but I don't think building them in huge numbers would offer much of an advantage against a huge properly equipped Navy like the IN. Moreover I haven't seen/read about a battle where this strategy was successfully implemented and yielded advantageous results. I have read about US war gaming against such swarming tactics...which worked in that Red vs Blue scenario to a great effect but it also involved "suicide attacks" along with conventional attacks by the small boats. Here are some details about that war gaming exercise below.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Bcuz Pak has limited resources...it's a safer bet to invest in tried and true methods. That is having a capable surface fleet...which doesn't have to be matched one to one...just enough to support other assets in the battlefield and pack enough of an offensive punch while fighting defensively(for the most part). The second aspect that would help in this defensive strategy while not having to match IN on a one to one basis would be A2AD...which will mainly be done by submarines and to a lesser extent coastal defenses. Last but not least would be air support(MPAs, jammers, fighter jets, drones, etc). These 3 things working together will effectively nullify IN's numerical advantage.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets


P3C has long enough range to defend Pak waters against enemy submarines. It may be old but is still very capable. Though Pak is looking to replace them I don't think Pak can replace all the P3C rn. So it's probably going to be around a while.


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
> View attachment 604336
> View attachment 604337


Just bcuz u don't see a drop tank in these pics doesn't mean JF17 can't carry it while carrying CM400 AKG. I don't think JF17 would have any problem carrying a centerline drop tank with those CM400 AKG missiles...in terms of MTOW(unless it's due to dimensions of the drop tank and CM400). With a centerline drop tank and in air refueling...it should be able to cover Pak's territorial waters to counter enemy fighter jets or in antiship role.

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## khanasifm

CHI RULES said:


> Air to Air refueling is the simple answer for JF17



With one centerline drop tank it’s will have range, I was told it still beats mirage due to better fuel efficient turbofan engine vs fuel guzzler turbojet of mirages

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## GriffinsRule



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## Bossman

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets
> 
> 
> Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
> View attachment 604336
> View attachment 604337


Are you Indian? I think you are a faker. No need to replace P3Cs. A number of developed countries still use them.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bossman said:


> Are you Indian? I think you are a faker


I am a fake Indian?

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## Bossman

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I am a fake Indian?


Don’t try to dodge the question.


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## PAR 5

I need a list of latest numbers of PN Naval Aviation assets. How many ATR's? How Many P3C's? How Many Sea Kings? How Many Z9EC's? etc


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## Rashid Mahmood

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets
> 
> 
> Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
> View attachment 604336
> View attachment 604337




There is no term "OLD" in aviation.

All aircraft have an air-frame service life and then major components service life.
No aircraft is flown after it ends these service life limit.

Major Components are changed/overhauled at their due time to extend their service life.
Air-frames are upgraded during the Mid-life Upgrade, if required which extends their service life limit.

No aviation operator flies aircraft after the service life limits are reached.

These aircraft and other equipment is worth billions of dollars and are not just discarded as just being "OLD".

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## MastanKhan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets
> 
> 
> Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
> View attachment 604336
> View attachment 604337



Hi,

I can tell that you hardly read---and that subject of physics was not in your curiculum and you have a tendency to believe that all new is good.

It does not work that way with surveillance aircraft.

Paf pilots think that it is the 'man behind the machine'---.

Well---the navy thinks that it is the man behind the screen.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Some archives pictures I found.

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## HRK



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## DANGER-ZONE

Does anyone know the current staus of decommissioned Lynx Helicopters.
They were on sales 8 - 10 years ago.

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> View attachment 606924


Does that mean that UCAV will carry AShM and/or Torpedoes?? Can it be Suicide Drones?

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## Avid Aviator

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Does anyone know the current staus of decommissioned Lynx Helicopters.
> They were on sales 8 - 10 years ago.



Lynx recently put on static display @ Maritime Museum Karsaz-Karachi

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## DANGER-ZONE

Avid Aviator said:


> Lynx recently put on static display @ Maritime Museum Karsaz-Karachi



So it was a total loss, no country purchased them.

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## Zulfiqar

Avid Aviator said:


> Lynx recently put on static display @ Maritime Museum Karsaz-Karachi



A reminder for those who wants PN to go for AW-159.

No spares, no dice.


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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does that mean that UCAV will carry AShM and/or Torpedoes?? Can it be Suicide Drones?


IDK


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## Signalian

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does that mean that UCAV will carry AShM and/or Torpedoes?? Can it be Suicide Drones?


Depends what kind of UCAV, if it has internal bays or external hard points only. You can read about Boeing Loyal wingman UCAV. It has Two internal weapons bays allow for a 500-pound weapons payload for two GBU-39 small-diameter bombs, while there is also scope for underwing hardpoints to be included.

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## khanasifm

type Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

The Zhi-9C carrier-based model is actually improved based on the Zhi-9, and has nothing to do with the French "Dolphin" carrier-based " Black Panther ". On December 2, 1987, the first flight of the Zhi-9C carrier-based helicopter modified for the Navy was successful. It landed smoothly on the ship on December 24, and adopted the fast landing mooring device developed by China Helicopter Design. The finalized Type C is equipped with a nose radar, which can carry 2 "Tu-7" torpedoes for anti-submarine missions. Yu-7 mimics the US military MK-46 torpedoes captured by Hainan Islander fishermen, and its performance is close to MK-46. Our army also uses anti-submarine warfare such as 109 anti-submarine torpedoes, 250 kg and 100 kg bombs, and must use torpedo attacks on submarine targets with a depth of more than 300 meters. The picture below is the straight -9C.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

The following pictures are "Black Panther", the details are different from the Zhi-9C. The details are as follows: The nose radome of the Zhi-9C is larger and thicker than the "Black Panther"; the two airspeed tubes of the Zhi-9C are located under the nose radome, and the "Black Panther" is on both sides of the nose. The driver's observation window behind the Zhi-9C radome is small and the same size, while the "Black Panther" is right-right and left-small; the Zhi-9C can hang two torpedoes, and its hanger extends from under the fuselage. The "Black Panther" can only hang one, the rack is on the left side of the fuselage; the straight -9C rear cabin door is smaller than the "Black Panther", the glass windows are square, the "Black Panther" has rounded corners; the straight -9C rear machine No linear antenna like "Panther" on his body.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

The anti-submarine detection equipment carried by the aircraft includes sonar buoys, suspended sonars, and magnetic anomaly detectors. Three types of equipment are used to search, locate, and check whether the target exists. When the helicopter is flying at an altitude of 120 meters, it can receive signals from buoys within 10 nautical miles, with an effective range of 10 kilometers. A group of buoys includes 12 sonar buoys, with a barrel length of 305mm, a diameter of 124mm, and a weight of 5 kg. It uses passive omnidirectional detection technology. There are also four active sonar buoys, each 914mm in length, 124mm in diameter, and weighing 16 kg. There is also a temperature detection buoy and a marine environment buoy. The pendant sonar is type 605, which is the second generation of our country's imitation of the American AN / AQS-13 sonar, with a working distance of 34 to 64 chains and a full set weight of 320 kg. The French HS-73 sonar has a working distance of only 50 chains in the 80-meter deep sea area.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

The straight -9C in the picture below is quite special. Its belly is equipped with a harpoon landing aid. As the name suggests, this is a harpoon-like rod, and the ship deck has a metal plate with a lot of meshes. The "harpoon" is inserted into the mesh during landing, which can be quickly fixed on a shaking ship aircraft.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

Zhi-9 landed on our warship. Surprisingly, although the "Black Panther" and Zhi-9C have been equipped with troops for a long time, it was not until the end of 2004 that they completed the training task of taking off and landing at night for the first time. The take-off and landing training location is within line of sight of the port, not in the distant open sea. Naval helicopters have long been affiliated with shore-based establishments, and maintenance, training, and other surface ships are basically separated from each other. This year, they have gradually moved to surface ships to conduct joint training. Their actual combat effectiveness is still at the beginning. stage. Air Force World http://www.airforceworld.com

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

Inside the open -9 hood below is the KLC-1 X-band multi-function helicopter-borne surveillance radar developed by Nanjing Electronics Research Institute. The radar has good sea surface search and reconnaissance capabilities. The data communication system can transmit the detected sea surface tactical situation and target information to the ground or ship's command post. As long as it is used to provide trans-horizon detection capabilities and relays for C-801A and C-803 trans-horizon anti-ship missiles. Its structure is simple and has good mid-range and short-range detection performance. The main functions include: sea surface surveillance, providing sea surface air situation display, searching and tracking sea surface ship targets, providing over-the-horizon target indication for ship missile and land ship missile attack, auxiliary navigation, weather detection, beacon function, passive detection . The main feature is an elliptical parabolic antenna made of lightweight carbon fiber reinforced plastic with a compact structure. The design incorporates advanced processing technology to improve the target detection capability under strong sea clutter. Advanced technologies such as pulse compression, frequency agility, narrow pulse signals, wide frequency bands, CFAR detection, electronic countermeasures, programmable signal and data processing systems, and in-machine self-tests are used. It weighs 82 kg. The search distance and adaptable sea conditions for different targets are: fishing boat, 50 nautical miles, IIII sea situation; small and medium-sized ships, 64 nautical miles, IIII sea situation.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

KLC-1 has an important position in the history of radar development in China. It is China's first carrier-based airborne radar, which must be able to withstand various erosion during maritime navigation. Nanjing Electronics Research Institute and Guangzhou No. 5 Institute of the Ministry of Information Industry jointly completed the anti-corrosion work of KLC-1, and properly handled raw materials, printed boards, dipping, filling, insulation, plugging and chassis, ensuring This kind of shipborne airborne radar reliability.
The following picture shows the Zhi-9 introduced by Pakistan

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

The picture below shows the Z-9 search and rescue type carried by the destroyer 167.

Z-9 multipurpose helicopter / WuZi-9 gunship

Basic technical data

Rotor diameter 11.93 meters 
Tail rotor diameter 0.90 m 
Captain 13.46 meters 
Captain (rotor, tail rotor folding) 11.44 meters 
Machine height (folded rotor and tail rotor) 3.21 meters

Weight and load (A: straight-9, B: straight-9A) 
Empty weight (A) 1975 kg, (B) 2050 kg 
Maximum payload (A) 1863 kg, (B) 2038 kg 
Takeoff weight (A) 3850 kg, (B) 4100 kg 
Maximum hanging load of 1600 kg 
Maximum level flight speed 306 km / h 
Normal cruising speed (A, total weight 3850 kg) 250 ～ 260 km / h 
Vertical climb rate (sea level) (A) 4.2 m / s, (B) 4.1 m / s 
Practical ceiling (A) 4500 meters, (B) 6000 meters 
Hovering height (with ground effect) (A) 1950 meters, (B) 2600 meters, (without ground effects) (A) 1020 meters, (B) 1600 meters 
Ferry range 1000 km 
5 hours maximum endurance 
Maximum practical overload 3.5G (load capacity 3200 kg)



https://translate.googleusercontent...na.htm&usg=ALkJrhhVCZAVoDenVqLoUqQqu81pB4KCdg


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## GriffinsRule

No country would buy them as Pakistan bought second hand helicopters in 1994 (they were built in 1976 & 1977). They were also not upgraded to the HAS.8 standard but were HAS.3 ... and of course, any country operating naval variants of Lynx bought the Super Lynx and would have no use for these old second hand machines. Not to mention, if anyone wanted to buy them, they would do so from UK itself along with a proper spares contract etc. It was a bad purchase to begin with sadly.

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## Incog_nito

Is PN looking to acquire it's own fighter fleet? I heard China is gifting Pakistan some JH-7Bs.

I guess it's good for PN.

Moreover, does PN needs more Sea Kings from ex-operators?

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## GriffinsRule

IM Ozair said:


> Is PN looking to acquire it's own fighter fleet? I heard China is gifting Pakistan some JH-7Bs.
> 
> I guess it's good for PN.
> 
> Moreover, does PN needs more Sea Kings from ex-operators?



Whom did you hear that from?
PN got a couple used ones for the interim but they need to replace the Sea King with a newer helicopter. Very soon supporting the Sea King will become untenable and expensive.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> Whom did you hear that from?
> PN got a couple used ones for the interim but they need to replace the Sea King with a newer helicopter. Very soon supporting the Sea King will become untenable and expensive.


PN should look one vendor and go for package deal to replace seakings Italian option is good if US is in good mood them sea Hawks



IM Ozair said:


> Is PN looking to acquire it's own fighter fleet? I heard China is gifting Pakistan some JH-7Bs.
> 
> I guess it's good for PN.
> 
> Moreover, does PN needs more Sea Kings from ex-operators?


Ozair Ur whole wish cards require $$100 billion price tag

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## Incog_nito

GriffinsRule said:


> Whom did you hear that from?
> PN got a couple used ones for the interim but they need to replace the Sea King with a newer helicopter. Very soon supporting the Sea King will become untenable and expensive.


AW101 or NH-90 will be the best option.

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## Bullzz

As already discussed PN will go for Agusta Westland AW101

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## Windjammer

U.S. Navy members and Pakistan navy fixing the auxiliary power unit intake door actuator on a Pakistani P-3C Orion aircraft prior to taking off for a joint Search and Rescue exercise during Multinational Exercise Komodo (MNEK). MNEK brings navies together from around the world to rehearse scenarios focused on collaborative solutions to humanitarian assistance, disaster relief and maritime domain awareness.

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## Dazzler



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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 615654


Pakistani version of P-8 Poseidon


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## Haris Ali2140

Safriz said:


> Pakistani version of P-8 Poseidon


How so???


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## Dazzler

Safriz said:


> Pakistani version of P-8 Poseidon



Sensor wise, pretty close, but lacks the payload due to platform.

https://specialmission.ras.de/the-ras72/#sea-eagle

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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> Sensor wise, pretty close, but lacks the payload due to platform.
> 
> https://specialmission.ras.de/the-ras72/#sea-eagle


Are sonobuoys(together with acoustic processing to determine the signature of the enemy vessel) that much more effective as compared to MAD sensor...when it comes to sub hunting? P8 doesnt have MAD and PN didn't put it on the ATRs as well...so I'm just wondering.


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> Sensor wise, pretty close, but lacks the payload due to platform.
> 
> https://specialmission.ras.de/the-ras72/#sea-eagle


Once I talked to a P-8 Poseidon pilot and asked him to compare P-8 and P-3C Orion.
He said that the main difference is that P-3C is not a submarine search platform but a "Pinpoint" system. Meaning you should already have an idea about the general area where submarine is lurking and P-3C will find exact position.
P-8 can search large areas and actually find a submarine.
Hope those sea eagles have similar search capabilities.

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## Dazzler

Cookie Monster said:


> Are sonobuoys(together with acoustic processing to determine the signature of the enemy vessel) that much more effective as compared to MAD sensor...when it comes to sub hunting? P8 doesnt have MAD and PN didn't put it on the ATRs as well...so I'm just wondering.



The more advanced acoustic sensor suite is there, hence the absence of MAD doesnt mean much. P8 has a similar arrangement.


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## Haris Ali2140

Cookie Monster said:


> Are sonobuoys(together with acoustic processing to determine the signature of the enemy vessel) that much more effective as compared to MAD sensor...when it comes to sub hunting? P8 doesnt have MAD and PN didn't put it on the ATRs as well...so I'm just wondering.


Indian P8s have MAD.


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## Dazzler

Safriz said:


> Once I talked to a P-8 Poseidon pilot and asked him to compare P-8 and P-3C Orion.
> He said that the main difference is that P-3C is not a submarine search platform but a "Pinpoint" system. Meaning you should already have an idea about the general area where submarine is lurking and P-3C will find exact position.
> P-8 can search large areas and actually find a submarine.
> Hope those sea eagles have similar search capabilities.



Presence of AESA and EO/IR system suggest it will be used to scan large areas. Still, P3C remains a vital asset for PN.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Indian P8s have MAD.



They requested those, but other customers didnt.

Its datalink options are indeed impressive..

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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> The more advanced acoustic sensor suite is there, hence the absence of MAD doesnt mean much. P8 has a similar arrangement.


My question was that bcuz we are seeing somewhat of a trend towards the acoustic sensors over MAD...does it mean that advanced acoustic sensors perform better than MAD(hence no need for it any longer)?



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Indian P8s have MAD.


I was referring to P8s in general...P8 in general as the successor of P3...has acoustic sensors rather than a MAD boom. Of course other nations can request that as an add on...but in general it is absent.


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## Dazzler

Cookie Monster said:


> My question was that bcuz we are seeing somewhat of a trend towards the acoustic sensors over MAD...does it mean that advanced acoustic sensors perform better than MAD(hence no need for it any longer)?



Depends on the requirement.


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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> Depends on the requirement.


Could u elaborate further?...I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to naval systems.


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## Dazzler

Cookie Monster said:


> Could u elaborate further?...I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to naval systems.



@Rashid Mahmood

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Presence of AESA and EO/IR system suggest it will be used to scan large areas. Still, P3C remains a vital asset for PN.
> 
> 
> 
> They requested those, but other customers didnt.
> 
> Its datalink options are indeed impressive..
> 
> View attachment 615656


Are our RAS-72 in the same configuration???


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## Rashid Mahmood

Cookie Monster said:


> Could u elaborate further?...I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to naval systems.



It takes years of specialized training to acquire that knowledge.

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## Cookie Monster

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It takes years of specialized training to acquire that knowledge.


Yes it's a lot of technical stuff to take in...however in this case I just have one question...if it can possibly be answered...
Plz refer to post 999 and post 1004.


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## MastanKhan

"You don't learn the knowledge yourself---you don't take the responsibility---"
Michael Crichton
Jurassic Park


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## mshan44



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Haris Ali2140

ATR-72 MPA are fitted with AESA. Can they function as AWACS???
@Dazzler @Rashid Mahmood @Tank131 @Quwa @Tipu7

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## khanasifm

Haris Ali2140 said:


> ATR-72 MPA are fitted with AESA. Can they function as AWACS???
> @Dazzler @Rashid Mahmood @Tank131 @Quwa @Tipu7




The PN’s ATR-72 MPA is also known as the RAS-72 Sea Eagle. The RAS-72 Sea Eagle is configured with the Leonardo Seaspray 7300E active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, FLIR Systems’ Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret, and Elettronica’s electronic support measures (ESM) suite.



Leonardo’s multi-mode AESA surveillance radars are a worldwide success, having been sold to 30 countries. The Seaspray 7500E has seen service with the US Coast Guard, while the Seaspray 7000E equips the UK Armed Forces’ AW159 Wildcat helicopters, the Seaspray 7300E equips the Italian Air Force’s ATR-72s and the Seaspray 5000E was recently selected for the Bangladeshi Navy to conduct anti-smuggling and anti-pollution missions. 


https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...easpray_7500E_LQ_mm07777_.pdf?t=1538987509857

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## Tank131

Haris Ali2140 said:


> ATR-72 MPA are fitted with AESA. Can they function as AWACS???
> @Dazzler @Rashid Mahmood @Tank131 @Quwa @Tipu7



Well the radar supposedly has a range of ~600km I believe that is look down /surface scan. In that way it could theoretically be used as a naval awac for surface to surface guidance and targeting, but I'm not sure of anti-air operations.

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## Haris Ali2140

Tank131 said:


> Well the radar supposedly has a range of ~600km I believe that is look down /surface scan. In that way it could theoretically be used as a naval awac for surface to surface guidance and targeting, but I'm not sure of anti-air operations.


Thanks. 
An off-topic question. Do you have any know how on how electricity is produced in fighter jets???


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## GriffinsRule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 618375


First I have seen a machine gunner on a SA-316. Clearly not on a standard SAR configuration. 
What are the antennas on the front of the cockpit for?

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## DarthTerror

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Thanks.
> An off-topic question. Do you have any know how on how electricity is produced in fighter jets???



Not who you asked but generally, on aircrafts, electrical power is produced by a constant speed drive gearbox coupled to an electrical generator which uses the torque from jet turbine.

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## Haris Ali2140

DarthTerror said:


> Not who you asked but generally, on aircrafts, electrical power is produced by a constant speed drive gearbox coupled to an electrical generator which uses the torque from jet turbine.


yes. But what if we want to increase power output???


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## DarthTerror

Haris Ali2140 said:


> yes. But what if we want to increase power output???


I'm assuming you mean during flight? You can't afaik. Twin engines might produce twice the maximum rated electrical power but that's for redundancy purposes. Each of super hornets engine produces a little north of 75kW, which is enough for the aircraft's requirements. External modules (targeting and jamming pods) are mounted while keeping the electrical power available under consideration. If more power is required than the aircraft's output then other solutions are employed such as the jamming pods of the growler, which generate their own power.

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## Haris Ali2140

DarthTerror said:


> I'm assuming you mean during flight? You can't afaik. Twin engines might produce twice the maximum rated electrical power but that's for redundancy purposes. Each of super hornets engine produces a little north of 75kW, which is enough for the aircraft's requirements. External modules (targeting and jamming pods) are mounted while keeping the electrical power available under consideration. If more power is required than the aircraft's output then other solutions are employed such as the jamming pods of the growler, which generate their own power.



What if we change the module which produces power??? Will it affect the thrust produced by the engine???


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Haris Ali2140 said:


> yes. But what if we want to increase power output???


There are two parts of the question you have put forward.
1) power sources in an ATR72
2) increase of power output.

This link will provide all details. Part G. Electrical System 
https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/atr/atr-systems.pdf

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## Haris Ali2140

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There are two parts of the question you have put forward.
> 1) power sources in an ATR72
> 2) increase of power output.
> 
> This link will provide all details. Part G. Electrical System
> https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/atr/atr-systems.pdf


Thanks, but I am talking specifically about fighter jets.


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## DarthTerror

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What if we change the module which produces power??? Will it affect the thrust produced by the engine???


Changing the module should not have any effect as long as required power of the aircraft and the modules combined does not exceed the max output from the engines.
Regarding thrust, in theory thrust should decrease as more power is drawn from the generator but in practice the change is miniscule enough to be disregarded.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Thanks, but I am talking specifically about fighter jets.


In theory the principle remains the same. The limitation is thrust produced by the engine and the weight of the aircraft as there is always a compromise.

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## Michel Niesten

The German Government has granted Rheinland Air Service (Mönchengladbach) an export licence for a “Torpedo-fighter-plane” to Pakistan. That would be another Sea Eagle. I have no idea if that will be a Pakistani owned ATR being converted, or a secondhand aircraft will be added to the fleet.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Michel Niesten said:


> The German Government has granted Rheinland Air Service (Mönchengladbach) an export licence for a “Torpedo-fighter-plane” to Pakistan. That would be another Sea Eagle. I have no idea if that will be a Pakistani owned ATR being converted, or a secondhand aircraft will be added to the fleet.


We have recently given a tender for the jet


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## Michel Niesten

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We have recently given a tender for the jet



That looks more like a Boeing 737 class aircraft, I wonder if that has any connection with the RAS Sea Eagle conversion? 
MTOW of 737 is 120.000-130.000 lbs, an ATR72 of about 50.000 lbs. 
Also the range of an ATR72 is much less I think?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Michel Niesten said:


> The German Government has granted Rheinland Air Service (Mönchengladbach) an export licence for a “Torpedo-fighter-plane” to Pakistan. That would be another Sea Eagle. I have no idea if that will be a Pakistani owned ATR being converted, or a secondhand aircraft will be added to the fleet.


This is likely RAS-72 Sea Eagle. The jet-powered LRMPA is still a ways out.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is likely RAS-72 Sea Eagle. The jet-powered LRMPA is still a ways out.


We have extra aircraft for it?


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## Michel Niesten

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We have extra aircraft for it?



I know 2 ATR-72 are flying for the PN as cargo/passenger aircraft. Maybe one of those might be converted. But it is also possible RHeinland Air Service will buy a (secondhand) ATR72 for Pakistan

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is likely RAS-72 Sea Eagle. The jet-powered LRMPA is still a ways out.


Sir, it seems like ATR-72 is not the aircraft that PN is considering. If we look at the tender then it is clearly mentioning an aircraft with MTOW and range far more than what ATR-72 offers. 

In my opinion A319LR or A220-100 are more appropriate. A220-100 is powered by P&W Canada similar to the ATR's hence supply chain and maintenance will not be a problem. It is also cheaper in price as per the 2018 price list of Airbus ..Link file:///C:/Users/ADEEL/Downloads/Airbus-Commercial-Aircraft-list-prices-2018.pdf 

An interesting video regarding A220. 
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...e8b41cccb06a6a22ffd9e71374ca9291&action=click

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, it seems like ATR-72 is not the aircraft that PN is considering. If we look at the tender then it is clearly mentioning an aircraft with MTOW and range far more than what ATR-72 offers.
> 
> In my opinion A319LR or A220-100 are more appropriate. A220-100 is powered by P&W Canada similar to the ATR's hence supply chain and maintenance will not be a problem. It is also cheaper in price as per the 2018 price list of Airbus ..Link file:///C:/Users/ADEEL/Downloads/Airbus-Commercial-Aircraft-list-prices-2018.pdf
> 
> An interesting video regarding A220.
> https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...e8b41cccb06a6a22ffd9e71374ca9291&action=click


hmmm...I think we're talking about 2 different things.

1. There's the twin-engine tender for an LRMPA
2. Germany approved the sale of a 'torpedo-fighter-plane' to Pakistan.

I'm saying No. 2 is referring to another RAS-72, that's the only 'torpedo-plane' program we have with Germany.

The twin-engine jet for the LRMPA is a separate program, likely to be designed, integrated and tested in Pakistan. I agree with you, the PN is clearly looking for a larger plane. However, I don't think they'll get A220. Unfortunately, it is too late for that and now that plane is in Airbus' hands. When it was still with Bombardier, maybe...

That said, the Bombardier Global 6000 or 7500 are a good bet. They're slightly lighter than the MTOW requirement, but we know (from the Saab Swordfish) that turning it into an LRMPA is doable. Moreover, Canada is evidently fine with countries using the jet for military purposes, even Turkey's using it for the HAVASOJ EW/ECM aircraft.

The PN will likely go the Bombardier route, either brand new from factory or through third-party companies.

But if we follow the tender requirements to the letter, then it boils down to the Airbus A220-100 or the Embraer Lineage 1000E. Yes, Boeing bought Embraer's airliner division, but the Lineage 1000E actually belongs to Embraer's VIP line (which Embraer still owns).

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think we're talking about 2 different things.
> 
> 1. There's the twin-engine tender for an LRMPA
> 2. Germany approved the sale of a 'torpedo-fighter-plane' to Pakistan.


Sir, may be you are correct that these are two separate programs and yes PN does require 2 more RAS72 to replace the existing F-27's. Not long ago there was news regarding the upgrades for the ATR72-500 to ATR72-600 specifications for the PN. There is no news in this regards hence one might consider that one more of the existing ATR in the Transport fleet might have gone through with the upgrade hence the German approval. 
Or
The wording that has been mentioned is "Sale of a Torpedo-Fighter-Plane" could also be taken as this is not based on the existing RAS72 Torpedo-Plane program but a new one hence a new tender was published specifying LRMPA. Keeping in mind if PN could use the same equipment that is already approved for the RAS72 on different platform i.e LRMPA than PN might have some amount saved. (PAF model used for SAAB). 

This would give PN a new capability and required area coverage with limited funds. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Embraer Lineage 1000E


No doubt this aircraft might be available still it is too underpowered as it is based on the E170 - E-195 having the longest fuselage.


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## Dazzler

Michel Niesten said:


> The German Government has granted Rheinland Air Service (Mönchengladbach) an export licence for a “Torpedo-fighter-plane” to Pakistan. That would be another Sea Eagle. I have no idea if that will be a Pakistani owned ATR being converted, or a secondhand aircraft will be added to the fleet.



Two torpedo fighters delivered..

https://asianmilitaryreview.com/201...ol-aircraft-second-delivery-to-pakistan-navy/


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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> Two torpedo fighters delivered..
> 
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/201...ol-aircraft-second-delivery-to-pakistan-navy/


Is the export license for the third one?

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Two torpedo fighters delivered..
> 
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/201...ol-aircraft-second-delivery-to-pakistan-navy/


Both are equipped for MPA??? Cause a few days ago, pics of 2 ATRs were posted by PN and members were saying that only one is equipped with sensors while the other is clean.


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## Dazzler

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is the export license for the third one?



Not yet confirmed.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> hmmm...I think we're talking about 2 different things.
> 
> 1. There's the twin-engine tender for an LRMPA
> 2. Germany approved the sale of a 'torpedo-fighter-plane' to Pakistan.
> 
> I'm saying No. 2 is referring to another RAS-72, that's the only 'torpedo-plane' program we have with Germany.
> 
> The twin-engine jet for the LRMPA is a separate program, likely to be designed, integrated and tested in Pakistan. I agree with you, the PN is clearly looking for a larger plane. However, I don't think they'll get A220. Unfortunately, it is too late for that and now that plane is in Airbus' hands. When it was still with Bombardier, maybe...
> 
> That said, the Bombardier Global 6000 or 7500 are a good bet. They're slightly lighter than the MTOW requirement, but we know (from the Saab Swordfish) that turning it into an LRMPA is doable. Moreover, Canada is evidently fine with countries using the jet for military purposes, even Turkey's using it for the HAVASOJ EW/ECM aircraft.
> 
> The PN will likely go the Bombardier route, either brand new from factory or through third-party companies.
> 
> But if we follow the tender requirements to the letter, then it boils down to the Airbus A220-100 or the Embraer Lineage 1000E. Yes, Boeing bought Embraer's airliner division, but the Lineage 1000E actually belongs to Embraer's VIP line (which Embraer still owns).


Sir v big fan of yours . Sir whats your guess or knowledge about LRMPA hard points goals we are looking ( Compared to Indian Navy P8 ) ??? ATR-72 has 2 hard points . Plz sir your comments .

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Sir v big fan of yours . Sir whats your guess or knowledge about LRMPA hard points goals we are looking ( Compared to Indian Navy P8 ) ??? ATR-72 has 2 hard points . Plz sir your comments .


It depends on the aircraft. If the PN selects the Bombardier Global 6000, then you're maybe looking at 4 hardpoints for anti-ship missiles and lightweight torpedoes.

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## Shabi1

Un related but just sharing just to show a such a type of jet could work well in antiship role. A customized option could carry more potent antiship missiles (C802, Raad2 etc) than the Harpoon

This was a cross between a Mirage and a Dassault Falcon 50 used by Iraq.
https://fighterjetsworld.com/histor...ness-jet-almost-sank-a-us-navy-frigate/18958/



.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends on the aircraft. If the PN selects the Bombardier Global 6000, then you're maybe looking at 4 hardpoints for anti-ship missiles and lightweight torpedoes.


Thank you Sir . so as name suggest LRMPA ,its hard points will be more than ATR-72 (i.e 2 ) . Stay Blessed .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shabi1 said:


> Un related but just sharing just to show a such a type of jet could work well in antiship role. A customized option could carry more potent antiship missiles (C802, Raad2 etc) than the Harpoon
> 
> This was a cross between a Mirage and a Dassault Falcon 50 used by Iraq.
> https://fighterjetsworld.com/histor...ness-jet-almost-sank-a-us-navy-frigate/18958/
> 
> 
> 
> .


This honestly looks like it came out of a James Bond/Die Hard crossover.

This is what ours will look like though (iA):






https://saab.com/globalassets/publi...rvices/mpa/mpa_datasheet_g6000_a4_web_low.pdf

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## Michel Niesten

Dazzler
[QUOTE="Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is the export license for the third one?



The export license was discussed and approved in the German Parliament this week, it is for a new delivery, not for the ones already delivered. German companies delivering weapons and military products have to get this approval before they can deliver these products, otherwise they will have huge problems with the Government.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> The export license was discussed and approved in the German Parliament this week, it is for a new delivery, not for the ones already delivered. German companies delivering weapons and military products have to get this approval before they can deliver these products, otherwise they will have huge problems with the Government.


Thank you for further clarification .


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## Pakistani Fighter

Michel Niesten said:


> The export license was discussed and approved in the German Parliament this week, it is for a new delivery, not for the ones already delivered. German companies delivering weapons and military products have to get this approval before they can deliver these products, otherwise they will have huge problems with the Government.


Ok. So the export could be for new LRMPA?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Ok. So the export could be for new LRMPA?


Thats another Project . It will be 3rd ATR-72 MPA conversion IA .


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## Dazzler



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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


>



the 6 holes in fuselage floor Look like sonobuoy launcher ??

lastly it has anti sub role plos mpa but what about anti surface role ?? Carrying any long range anti ship weapons , non so far but somewhere it mentioned ??

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## Haris Ali2140

khanasifm said:


> the 6 holes in fuselage floor Look like sonobuoy launcher ??
> 
> lastly it has anti sub role plos mpa but what about anti surface role ?? Carrying any long range anti ship weapons , non so far but somewhere it mentioned ??


It has 2 HP.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has 2 HP.


Torpedos are going to be launched from those HPs?


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## khanasifm

Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has 2 HP.




Just anti sub plus mpa role
no anti surface role like Turkish atr-72 program and unlike Italian atr-72 which are just mpa no anti sub role


https://www.janes.com/article/89795/pakistan-navy-receives-second-atr-72-mpa


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## Michel Niesten

khanasifm said:


> the 6 holes in fuselage floor Look like sonobuoy launcher ??
> 
> lastly it has anti sub role plos mpa but what about anti surface role ?? Carrying any long range anti ship weapons , non so far but somewhere it mentioned ??


I suppose torpedoes are also quite efficient against surface vessels. Although they have to be in a certain range to fire them.

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## Yasser76

Michel Niesten said:


> I suppose torpedoes are also quite efficient against surface vessels. Although they have to be in a certain range to fire them.



If PN is as networked as we think it is, these MPAs may not have to carry long range missiles. P-3C has long range but Harpoon missile it carries it relatively short ranged (100km odd)

Value of these new ATR-72s is acting as detection and guidence platforms. Soon PN will have many platforms that can carry Zarb/Babur with 400m range (Fast Attack boats, MILGEM etc). No radar on these boats can cue the missiles with such long range, ATR-72 solves this problem. If PN can find data link and software solution, in theory our boats can sail say 200km away from coast, ATR-72 can fly 400km ahead and we can look at targeting IN vessels 600km away from our coast. Effectively keeping our supply lines open

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## airomerix

ATR-72

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## aziqbal

ok so more than 10 warships coming to the navy what helicopters have they prepared ?

2 x OPV, 4 x MILGEM and 4 x Type 054AP 

or are they planning on using those Z9C with 50km range ? 

we need to start getting serious with a proper naval squadron of helicopters 

we need 24 medium sized ultra modern helicopters

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## Yasser76

aziqbal said:


> ok so more than 10 warships coming to the navy what helicopters have they prepared ?
> 
> 2 x OPV, 4 x MILGEM and 4 x Type 054AP
> 
> or are they planning on using those Z9C with 50km range ?
> 
> we need to start getting serious with a proper naval squadron of helicopters
> 
> we need 24 medium sized ultra modern helicopters




Totally agree, PN Helicopter fleet is very limited when you look at the platforms inducted. Sea Kings old, even with upgrades and often too big for most of our Frigates to store in ship's hanger. Aloutte III to old, little range, very little load capacity. Z9C OK, but unable to launch AShM, limited to Torpedo only, and equipment Chinese not western.

As you so PN needs 24 aircraft maybe in Wildcat class. Navalised AW139 would be perfect. Would need to be configured to carry our own Anti-ship missiles but integration with NATO standard Turkish equipment will be easy. As Air Force have shown also has excellent SAR and ISR capability, good range and night/bad weather capable.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> Totally agree, PN Helicopter fleet is very limited when you look at the platforms inducted. Sea Kings old, even with upgrades and often too big for most of our Frigates to store in ship's hanger. Aloutte III to old, little range, very little load capacity. Z9C OK, but unable to launch AShM, limited to Torpedo only, and equipment Chinese not western.
> 
> As you so PN needs 24 aircraft maybe in Wildcat class. Navalised AW139 would be perfect. Would need to be configured to carry our own Anti-ship missiles but integration with NATO standard Turkish equipment will be easy. As Air Force have shown also has excellent SAR and ISR capability, good range and night/bad weather capable.


Why Anti Ship? Ships are enough for Anti Ship. Helicopters should be used for Anti Sub Role with carrying Torpedos

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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why Anti Ship? Ships are enough for Anti Ship. Helicopters should be used for Anti Sub Role with carrying Torpedos



Helicopters armed with anti -ship missiles can fly further ahead of the ship and launch, this potentially keeps the ship out of harms way. Also the helicopter will be able to "see" and acquire targets much more further away then the ship's radar can

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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why Anti Ship? Ships are enough for Anti Ship. Helicopters should be used for Anti Sub Role with carrying Torpedos



There are limitations with Ship radars and the Horizon, helo's can get far better range due to the antenna being higher

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Totally agree, PN Helicopter fleet is very limited when you look at the platforms inducted. Sea Kings old, even with upgrades and often too big for most of our Frigates to store in ship's hanger. Aloutte III to old, little range, very little load capacity. Z9C OK, but unable to launch AShM, limited to Torpedo only, and equipment Chinese not western.
> 
> As you so PN needs 24 aircraft maybe in Wildcat class. Navalised AW139 would be perfect. Would need to be configured to carry our own Anti-ship missiles but integration with NATO standard Turkish equipment will be easy. As Air Force have shown also has excellent SAR and ISR capability, good range and night/bad weather capable.


Naval AW139s are an interesting idea. In theory, they should be able to sustain at least a lightweight torpedo (LWT) and radar (the latter can guide ship-based AShM). 

You'd need a new Sea King-class helicopter (e.g., AW101) to drop C-802A-like AShM, but AW139s should be able to fire smaller/lighter missiles (good for deprecating the opposing ship's radars/sensors).

*sigh* ... wouldn't it be nice if the PN, PA and PAF could settle on a single type for the utility role, and then co-produce it with a willing partner (like Turkey, which invited us to work with them on the T625).

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Naval AW139s are an interesting idea. In theory, they should be able to sustain at least a lightweight torpedo (LWT) and radar (the latter can guide ship-based AShM).
> 
> You'd need a new Sea King-class helicopter (e.g., AW101) to drop C-802A-like AShM, but AW139s should be able to fire smaller/lighter missiles (good for deprecating the opposing ship's radars/sensors).
> 
> *sigh* ... wouldn't it be nice if the PN, PA and PAF could settle on a single type for the utility role, and then co-produce it with a willing partner (like Turkey, which invited us to work with them on the T625).




Yes, in an ideal world if US had not messed us around something like Seahawk/Blackhawk/Pavehawk could have ideally fitted all 3 services. Failing that Sea and Army versions of Super Puma. Instead between all three services we have around 12 different types in service! :-( Ideally Army just needs 6 types (1 for training, 1 light transport, 1 medium transport, 1 heavy transport, 2 types of Gunship), Navy just two types (light and medium) and air force just two types (light and medium). No reason the light and medium types for all 3 services cannot be same basic airframes. Just like we used Aloutte III as basic light type for all three services.

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## mehmeTcc

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Naval AW139s are an interesting idea. In theory, they should be able to sustain at least a lightweight torpedo (LWT) and radar (the latter can guide ship-based AShM).
> 
> You'd need a new Sea King-class helicopter (e.g., AW101) to drop C-802A-like AShM, but AW139s should be able to fire smaller/lighter missiles (good for deprecating the opposing ship's radars/sensors).
> 
> *sigh* ... wouldn't it be nice if the PN, PA and PAF could settle on a single type for the utility role, and then co-produce it with a willing partner (like Turkey, which invited us to work with them on the T625).


Why would you want to launch C-802 (a cruise missile) from a helicopter?


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## Akh1112

mehmeTcc said:


> Why would you want to launch C-802 (a cruise missile) from a helicopter?




Its an AShM, helicopter launches are useful because Airborne radars can see a lot further than surface ones.

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## mehmeTcc

Akh1112 said:


> Its an AShM, helicopter launches are useful because Airborne radars can see a lot further than surface ones.


I know what an Anti-ship missile is 

This type of missiles need kinetic energy at launch, there is a reason why they are being fired from either high-altitude fixed-wing aircraft or by Vertical Launching Systems. It is not impossible, but it is hard to integrate missiles of that size into helicopters. Still, packaging should be done with a certain degree of angle, so not every helicopter would be able I guess. Also, helicopters _usually_ don't carry radars. If you are thinking about carrying a Merlin Mk2-esque helicopter in a frigate, you would make the ship crippled against submarine attacks and it's supply management reduces dramatically. If you have a patrol mission in your head, why bother where there are better fixed-wing alternatives?

I mean, it is not unheard of. Chilean Navy for example, is flying their helicopters with Exocet for a long time. But it is unusual. Let the helicopter does what it is good at, which is ASW.

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## Akh1112

mehmeTcc said:


> I know what an Anti-ship missile is
> 
> This type of missiles need kinetic energy at launch, there is a reason why they are being fired from either high-altitude fixed-wing aircraft or by Vertical Launching Systems. It is not impossible, but it is hard to integrate missiles of that size into helicopters. Still, packaging should be done with a certain degree of angle, so not every helicopter would be able I guess. Also, helicopters _usually_ don't carry radars. If you are thinking about carrying a Merlin Mk2-esque helicopter in a frigate, you would make the ship crippled against submarine attacks and it's supply management reduces dramatically. If you have a patrol mission in your head, why bother where there are better fixed-wing alternatives?
> 
> I mean, it is not unheard of. Chilean Navy for example, is flying their helicopters with Exocet for a long time. But it is unusual. Let the helicopter does what it is good at, which is ASW.




So, a turbojet wouldn't need kinetic energy at launch, a ramjet would hence why you see surface based variants of the BrahMos use boosters to get them to a high speed first. Sure, but a navalised variant of them can, like, we are not talking about just any helicopter, we are specifically talking about navalised models. We are purely talking hypothetically. Its good you mention the Merlin MK2, it has both surface search capabilities and ASW, so actually, a merlin-esqe helo would be great for the PN, the ability to take out surface combatants from a longer range while maintaining a potent ASW cap would be great. The PN already operates helicopter launched exocets from our seakings anyway, its beneficial to be able to strike first and at a longer distance regardless of the launch platform, however, we do know that an airborne platform would be able to do that better


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## mehmeTcc

^^
Merlin is used by Royal Navy to serve as an Early Warning Radar for their aircraft carrier groups, they are not utilized by traditional combat ships. And btw RN operates them because of their inability to launch large fixed-wing aircraft by their ACs, if they had the chance of operating anything closely resembling P-8 they would trash these helicopters in a heartbeat in favor of more capable, easier to maintain fixed-wing aircraft. 

That being said, unlike RN, Pakistani Navy is littoral. There is simply no doctrine for a Merlin in PN when the combat mission you described above can be handled by a patrol aircraft taking off from the Pakistani heartland. They are simply more effective, as they offer better range and more carriage capacity. 

Also, the idea of helicopters being better at detection compared to ships are plain wrong. Ships can generate more power, hence more electricity can be spend on radars. As such, naval radars offer better range. Same thing also applies for Electronic Warfare systems (or any other electronics suite really); the phenomena can be seen in Turkish Koral and Ares-2N, even though the exact specifications are secret, Aselsan claims Ares-2N, the naval adaptation of Koral, offers a much better Electronic Warfare capability. Again, in a hypothetical scenario a Wunderwaffe helicopter able to offer much better electronics suite compared to ships can be produced, but to what ends? The scale simply doesn't favor such an application.

If you want area denial for Indian warships, just buy couple of C-802s (or Atmaca, if you are into it) and station them on shore, you would have a much better chance of hitting the enemy ship. Helicopters are basically sitting ducks against serious Surface to Air systems. Your adversaries ships' are capable, these helicopters would be a liability.

Last minute addition:
Our navy loves their Penguins. Our doctrine utilizes them against smaller, surprise targets in the Aegean. In fact, we have a local missile similar to Penguins in design phase, called Temren. IDK what good they might bring for open seas, but it is a concept worth noting.


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## Michel Niesten

The 3rd ATR for conversion to Sea Eagle should arrive at Mönchengladbach during the last week of June. I have no info yet if this is a new ATR for Pakistan, or if they will convert nr 76 or 77.

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## Syntage

It doesn't make sense if PN doesn't use ATRs as a multirole platform.Its a waste of money by PN if these ATRs are just able to carry two anti submarine or anti ship missile or torpedos.Do we have the luxury to waste hard saved money?I don't think so.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) Your point of view needed.


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## Akh1112

Syntage said:


> It doesn't make sense if PN doesn't use ATRs as a multirole platform.Its a waste of money by PN if these ATRs are just able to carry two anti submarine or anti ship missile or torpedos.Do we have the luxury to waste hard saved money?I don't think so.
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Your point of view needed.




I dont understand why they are a waste? They are airborne sensor platforms which should in theory have the ability to communicate with our other naval assets, providing them vital targeting and situational awareness information, can think of them like the AEWAC's of the sea kind of, however with its own defensive capability to some extent i.e via its ability to deploy torpedos

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## Yasser76

Syntage said:


> It doesn't make sense if PN doesn't use ATRs as a multirole platform.Its a waste of money by PN if these ATRs are just able to carry two anti submarine or anti ship missile or torpedos.Do we have the luxury to waste hard saved money?I don't think so.
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Your point of view needed.



This is a massive oversimplification and does show a certain ignorance of warfare in a networked age. To a large extent it does not matter if the platform can carry anything If it is linked to other platforms and acts as eyes and ears then it can relay data to a AZMAT ship of Khalid/Hangor class sub which can then act as the firing platform.

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## Syntage

Yasser76 said:


> This is a massive oversimplification and does show a certain ignorance of warfare in a networked age. To a large extent it does not matter if the platform can carry anything If it is linked to other platforms and acts as eyes and ears then it can relay data to a AZMAT ship of Khalid/Hangor class sub which can then act as the firing platform.




Exactly my point bro, why don't we get a platform that can detect & destroy all by itself.Why it has to relay target data.I know it can do all that you've mentioned but my question still stands that why can't we get an autonomous platform that is sufficient for atleast 4 targets.
In my humble opinion.What do you think?


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## Akh1112

Syntage said:


> Exactly my point bro, why don't we get a platform that can detect & destroy all by itself.Why it has to relay target data.I know it can do all that you've mentioned but my question still stands that why can't we get an autonomous platform that is sufficient for atleast 4 targets.
> In my humble opinion.What do you think?




Because there are limitations? The usual way for longer range targeting is making use of radars right? Well, surface radars can only see so far due to the earths horizon, or other obstacles in the way. They are also limited by size and power, however, an airborne radar is able to overcome the first few issues by well, being airborne. You will ALWAYS need an external sensor platform for super long range targeting.







good visual.

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## Yasser76

Syntage said:


> Exactly my point bro, why don't we get a platform that can detect & destroy all by itself.Why it has to relay target data.I know it can do all that you've mentioned but my question still stands that why can't we get an autonomous platform that is sufficient for atleast 4 targets.
> In my humble opinion.What do you think?



You make a good point and PN has 7 of these with P-3C which are still very capable birds. They are looking at repalcing these with a biz jet solution which probably will have Missile carrying abaility.

I would not be surprised if PN is looking at having around 6 each of ATR and new Biz jet type. That give you ability to keep 4 in the air most of the time during war


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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> You make a good point and PN has 7 of these with P-3C which are still very capable birds. They are looking at repalcing these with a biz jet solution which probably will have Missile carrying abaility.
> 
> I would not be surprised if PN is looking at having around 6 each of ATR and new Biz jet type. That give you ability to keep 4 in the air most of the time during war




He does not make a good point at all. By not having sensor platforms you are effectively blinding the ships as they simply are not capable of seeing as far as an airborne radar.


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## Incog_nito

airomerix said:


> ATR-72
> 
> View attachment 632771


What about Saab-2000 MPA ?


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## Akh1112

Incog_nito said:


> What about Saab-2000 MPA ?


its based off of the Swordfish platform which is no longer being offered.


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## aziqbal

Michel Niesten said:


> The 3rd ATR for conversion to Sea Eagle should arrive at Mönchengladbach during the last week of June. I have no info yet if this is a new ATR for Pakistan, or if they will convert nr 76 or 77.



so we had 2 delivered 78 and 79, we have options for 2 more and we also had a cargo version

so technically we could get 4 x ATR + 1 for special missions paratroopers

I think we should certainly get 2 more it would be a very good addition to the 2 we have

I cant remember when the first 2 were delivered but if it was the ATR which photographed the Indian submarine last year after Operation Swift Retort then it shows these are indeed capable aircraft, if these were not operational last year that photo must have come from the Naval P3C Orions


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## Syntage

Akh1112 said:


> He does not make a good point at all. By not having sensor platforms you are effectively blinding the ships as they simply are not capable of seeing as far as an airborne radar.


Bro, i didn't say that we don't need sensors.I am just saying that PN needs multirole aircrafts(that atr is) but with at least double the capacity to carry both anti submarine & anti ship missile.These ATRs can carry just 2 light weight torpedos.Now tell me, am i saying something illogical or out of question domain?I think p3Cs are better then the ATRs in this regard.

And please, i am just putting my opinion so you can enlighten me if i am wrong.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Syntage said:


> I think p3Cs are better then the ATRs in this regard.


They are not comparable. PN's next gen LRMPA program is going to replace P3Cs

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## Nomad40

How many is PN willing to buy?


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## syed_yusuf

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> How many is PN willing to buy?


Some of us have an idea but it must not shared


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## Nomad40

syed_yusuf said:


> Some of us have an idea but it must not shared


acha


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## GriffinsRule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> How many is PN willing to buy?


Will have to be a 1-1 replacement for the Orions, including the two we lost in the attack.


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## Yasser76

GriffinsRule said:


> Will have to be a 1-1 replacement for the Orions, including the two we lost in the attack.



No, it does not have to be 1-1. 5 Modern platforms can have the availability and effect as 7 old ones.


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## Syntage

Pakistani Fighter said:


> They are not comparable. PN's next gen LRMPA program is going to replace P3Cs



LRMPA must have enough weapon capacity as well.

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## Blacklight

mehmeTcc said:


> ^^
> Merlin is used by Royal Navy to serve as an Early Warning Radar for their aircraft carrier groups, they are not utilized by traditional combat ships. And btw RN operates them because of their inability to launch large fixed-wing aircraft by their ACs, if they had the chance of operating anything closely resembling P-8 they would trash these helicopters in a heartbeat in favor of more capable, easier to maintain fixed-wing aircraft.
> 
> That being said, unlike RN, Pakistani Navy is littoral. There is simply no doctrine for a Merlin in PN when the combat mission you described above can be handled by a patrol aircraft taking off from the Pakistani heartland. They are simply more effective, as they offer better range and more carriage capacity.
> 
> .



Well what the RN does not mean PN has to do as well. PN was interested in AW101, and once we get the frigates under order, it might still happen in limited numbers.

Btw, to call PN a littoral navy is an insult. It is not a true blue water navy, but certainly much better than a brown water navy.

Some interesting pics of Merlin Crowsnest with its ***km radar.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> It is not a true blue water navy, but certainly much better than a brown water navy.


I would say getting 4 Type 052Ds and some more frigates and corvettes than we can say its better than brown water navy


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## Fighting Falcon 01

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I would say getting 4 Type 052Ds and some more frigates and corvettes than we can say its better than brown water navy


Too expensive to procure 052Ds why not enlarge MILGEM to carry 16 anti ship missiles and a 32 cell VLS which can be used for any missile type better radar sensor fusion and spam them we can have two or maybe 3 modified MILGEM in price of one 052D and that combined with effective ASW helo will be a big punch and the LRMPAs are already on the way .....

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## Pakistani Fighter

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> Too expensive to procure 052Ds why not enlarge MILGEM to carry 16 anti ship missiles and a 32 cell VLS which can be used for any missile type better radar sensor fusion and spam them we can have two or maybe 3 modified MILGEM in price of one 052D and that combined with effective ASW helo will be a big punch and the LRMPAs are already on the way .....


Milgem can carry HHQ 9 LRSAM?


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## Arsalan

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> Too expensive to procure 052Ds why not enlarge MILGEM to carry 16 anti ship missiles and a 32 cell VLS which can be used for any missile type better radar sensor fusion and spam them we can have two or maybe 3 modified MILGEM in price of one 052D and that combined with effective ASW helo will be a big punch and the LRMPAs are already on the way .....


IF that was the requirement wont it make more sense to do this with the Type 54 we are getting from China? 

*Anyway, this is not the thread for this. Please stick to Naval Aviation discussion. *

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## Armchair

What's wrong with the P-3Cs they aren't that old. Why such a premature replacement?

Also, I never understood why the Lynx were retired so early.


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## syed_yusuf

Armchair said:


> What's wrong with the P-3Cs they aren't that old. Why such a premature replacement?
> 
> Also, I never understood why the Lynx were retired so early.



Lynx - operating cost and unavalibility of spares. also lack of local expertise to maintain them. UK was not playing very friendly.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> What's wrong with the P-3Cs they aren't that old. Why such a premature replacement?
> 
> Also, I never understood why the Lynx were retired so early.



P-3C Airframes are around 40 years old yaar.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> What's wrong with the P-3Cs they aren't that old. Why such a premature replacement?
> 
> Also, I never understood why the Lynx were retired so early.


I reckon it's more of because the next-gen LRMPAs will take a long time to induct (due to high cost, complexity, etc) that they're starting it this early. The modding process will take at least 3-5 years, and the PN would be lucky to get 1 new LRMPA a year on a consistent cadence. IMO, the P-3Cs aren't going anywhere for 10-15 years at least.

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## Aamir Hussain

I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.

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## Gentelman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I would say getting 4 Type 052Ds and some more frigates and corvettes than we can say its better than brown water navy


Not needed.... 
We only need 3-4 descent frigates large enough to give air cover to the entire fleet i.e type 054 P...
Submarine force should be the one to act as offensive platform and keep the adversaries at bay.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Gentelman said:


> Not needed....
> We only need 3-4 descent frigates large enough to give air cover to the entire fleet i.e type 054 P...
> Submarine force should be the one to act as offensive platform and keep the adversaries at bay.


They only have SAM range of just 70km max


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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Milgem can carry HHQ 9 LRSAM?



No. They use a completely different, far larger VLS setup.



Pakistani Fighter said:


> They only have SAM range of just 70km max



And how large is our coastline?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Akh1112 said:


> And how large is our coastline?


About 990km
India has supersonic AshM and its better that it be 8ntercepted as far away as possible. Also you don't want enemy's MPAs to come close to your ships


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## Blacklight

syed_yusuf said:


> Lynx - operating cost and unavalibility of spares. also lack of local expertise to maintain them. UK was not playing very friendly.



@Rashid Mahmood Is the ideal person to comment on the pre-mature death of this platform.



Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.



*Here Is Our First Clear Look At China's Z-20F Seahawk Helicopter Clone (Updated)*
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-at-chinas-z-20f-its-seahawk-helicopter-clone

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## CHI RULES

Blacklight said:


> @Rashid Mahmood Is the ideal person to comment on the pre-mature death of this platform.
> 
> 
> 
> *Here Is Our First Clear Look At China's Z-20F Seahawk Helicopter Clone (Updated)*
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-at-chinas-z-20f-its-seahawk-helicopter-clone



Kindly your views requested whether PN should in the next step go for Typ 52 Destroyers along with HHQ9 and Z20 like heavy Heli or rely on lighter frigates.

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## Gentelman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> They only have SAM range of just 70km max


Enough.... 
Save money, get a squadron or 2 for offence and Area Denial operations. We don't need to invest a lot on surface fleet, we can't match ship vs ship or even on quality basic so we have to choose wrt our strategy...

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gentelman said:


> we can't match ship vs ship


I am not suggesting to match. In front of 15 Indian destroyers, get atleast 4


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## Gentelman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I am not suggesting to match. In front of 15 Indian destroyers, get atleast 4


Why???
Indian navy will have 2 AC Carriers and hence 2 Battle groups, so what's the plan?
Indian navy aspirations are different, why we need to match them?
Obviously it would have been great if we could order 052 class rather than 054 P but the P in 054 represents all what PN needed. It will be a modified version and will be able to bridge the gap.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gentelman said:


> Why???
> Indian navy will have 2 AC Carriers and hence 2 Battle groups, so what's the plan?
> Indian navy aspirations are different, why we need to match them?
> Obviously it would have been great if we could order 052 class rather than 054 P but the P in 054 represents all what PN needed. It will be a modified version and will be able to bridge the gap.


Bcz of LRSAM. Its better to detect and destroy Supersonic Anti ship Missile from as far as possible. Also you don't want enemy MPAs closed to your surface fleets. Also your Long range Radars of destroyers can help guide your Long Range Anti Ship Missiles


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## Tipu7

CHI RULES said:


> Kindly your views requested whether PN should in the next step go for Typ 52 Destroyers along with HHQ9 and Z20 like heavy Heli or rely on lighter frigates.


Pakistan Navy will definitely move ahead to Destroyer size vessels once it will complete its contemporary fleet modernization process.

Provided that Economic Support is available, PN will transform into a conventional deterrent and will be able to counter entire Indian Navy of future in case of conflict. Alongside procurements of new platforms, a wide array of missile systems will continue to develop. 

What we see now - the projects of OPVs, subs upgradation, scout drones, Type-54AP, MPAs, AEWCS are initial phase of PN Modernization program. (2018- 2022).

Next phase includes J-class, New helicopters, Midgets, F22P overhaul, New AIP Subs, Destroyers, LR-MPA, MALE UAVs. (2022-2028). 

There are atleast two confidential projects underway which will also complete somewhere within this time frame.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> AEWCS


ZDKs?



Tipu7 said:


> There are atleast two confidential projects underway which will also complete somewhere within this time frame.


One must be Supersonic Anti Ship Missile


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## Tipu7

Pakistani Fighter said:


> ZDKs?


I don't know what designation ZDK will get after receiving upgrades in China.

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## Tipu7

Pakistani Fighter said:


> ZDKs?
> 
> 
> One must be Supersonic Anti Ship Missile


It's not a confidential project.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> AEWCS


What AEWCS is PN going for if not ZDK from PAF?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Blacklight said:


> @Rashid Mahmood Is the ideal person to comment on the pre-mature death of this platform.
> 
> 
> 
> *Here Is Our First Clear Look At China's Z-20F Seahawk Helicopter Clone (Updated)*
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-at-chinas-z-20f-its-seahawk-helicopter-clone




Lynx were part of the Type 21 deal and not a PN Choice.
The spares were way too expensive in order to maintain 3 aircraft with not any real capability.

Hence the decision to replace them with Z-9 was taken.

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## LKJ86

Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.



Too early to take such a decision.
The helicopter has not matured yet.

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## LKJ86

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Too early to take such a decision.


Just like that PN decides to buy Type 054A/P when China is about to stop all the production of Type 054A.

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## Pakistani Fighter

The *AN/APY-10* is fully integrated into Boeing's Mission Control and Display System for control, display and data distribution on the Poseidon. The P-8A *radar is also the only system of its type to provide a dedicated short exposure submarine periscope detection mode as well as ultra-high resolution imaging modes for maritime and overland operations, delivering uncompromised performance in every operational environment.*

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think which system can PN's LRMPA get in comparable to this?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> The *AN/APY-10* is fully integrated into Boeing's Mission Control and Display System for control, display and data distribution on the Poseidon. The P-8A *radar is also the only system of its type to provide a dedicated short exposure submarine periscope detection mode as well as ultra-high resolution imaging modes for maritime and overland operations, delivering uncompromised performance in every operational environment.*
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think which system can PN's LRMPA get in comparable to this?


I doubt it. The likeliest scenario is a Seaspsray 7xxx AESA radar accompanied by a FLIR Systems EO/IR turret (i.e., similar to the ATR-72 MPA).

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.


What about AW 159?



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I doubt it. The likeliest scenario is a Seaspsray 7xxx AESA radar accompanied by a FLIR Systems EO/IR turret (i.e., similar to the ATR-72 MPA).


7300E or 7500E are analogous to APS-143C(V)3 OceanEye on P8 I think. I am talking about AN/APY 10 which looks like anti sub radar on P8. P8 has 3 types of detection systems CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system, APS-143C(V)3 multimode radar and a global version of the Raytheon APY-10 surveillance radar.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> What about AW 159?
> 
> 
> 7300E or 7500E are analogous to APS-143C(V)3 OceanEye on P8 I think. I am talking about AN/APY 10 which looks like anti sub radar on P8. P8 has 3 types of detection systems CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system, APS-143C(V)3 multimode radar and a global version of the Raytheon APY-10 surveillance radar.


tbh, I don't know. I think we'll have to wait and see, but for now, I can only guess that the PN is aiming at least for the same subsystem suite as its ATR-72 MPAs, but with the addition of MAD. The MAD would have to come from a non-ITAR source. But beyond that, it'll depend on what the market can offer.

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## Tipu7

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 639750
> 
> 
> View attachment 639751
> 
> View attachment 639754


We are neither acquiring Chinese nor Russian helicopters as far as Navy is concerned.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> We are neither acquiring Chinese nor Russian helicopters as far as Navy is concerned.


The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.

The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform. 

If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> We are neither acquiring Chinese nor Russian helicopters as far as Navy is concerned.


Can you tell me of Navy's AEWCS


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## LKJ86

Tipu7 said:


> We are neither acquiring Chinese nor Russian helicopters as far as Navy is concerned.


Not care.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Again our own family of helicopters as suggested many times before. Or else this will keep happening. Navy might get Z20/AW150. Army might buy some AW139s and some other bird etc etc. Process needs to be standardized and spread across all three services.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.
> 
> The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform.
> 
> If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Again our own family of helicopters as suggested many times before. Or else this will keep happening. Navy might get Z20/AW150. Army might buy some AW139s and some other bird etc etc. Process needs to be standardized and spread across all three services.


The Turks are working on their own 10-ton helicopter. I think they'll adapt that design for naval ops too. 

It's a long-term bet, but I'm all ears for holding these things off for the sake of getting the latest design, and get our industry some serious work. If not the Turks, select an existing design, but with offsets and co-production. 

But this would've worked out better if we had back-loaded frigates to the 2030s and, instead, focused on cutting-edge submarines and lower-cost OPVs until then. So, get the subs for A2/AD, and OPVs to police our seas. I think OPVs would've been fine with AW139s for SAR/ASW (i.e., standardize with the PAF and PA). 

But from 2030, we can start inducting MILGEM-Js with a 10-ton helicopter, and in parallel, have the PA and PAF also start inducting the 10-ton helicopter. Between the MoD and MoI, Pakistan could need 200 such helicopters, easily.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Turks are working on their own 10-ton helicopter. I think they'll adapt that design for naval ops too.
> 
> It's a long-term bet, but I'm all ears for holding these things off for the sake of getting the latest design, and get our industry some serious work. If not the Turks, select an existing design, but with offsets and co-production.
> 
> But this would've worked out better if we had back-loaded frigates to the 2030s and, instead, focused on cutting-edge submarines and lower-cost OPVs until then. So, get the subs for A2/AD, and OPVs to police our seas. I think OPVs would've been fine with AW139s for SAR/ASW (i.e., standardize with the PAF and PA).
> 
> But from 2030, we can start inducting MILGEM-Js with a 10-ton helicopter, and in parallel, have the PA and PAF also start inducting the 10-ton helicopter. Between the MoD and MoI, Pakistan could need 200 such helicopters, easily.


Can u tell me about PN AWECS?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Can u tell me about PN AWECS?


tbh, I don't know. I can say that in the 2000s the PN asked for 3 P-3Bs with the Hawkeye-2000, so it did want an AEW&C capability at some point. Ultimately, it started working with the PAF's ZDK03, so if anything, I reckon any plan for a dedicated AEW&C capability could involve a transfer of the ZDK03 from the PAF to PN.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.
> 
> The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform.
> 
> If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.


Germany is acquiring the Naval versions of NH-90 named as Sea Lion to replace Sea King and Sea Tiger to replace Sea Lynx.
My speculation is, alongside AW-101, NH-90 can also become an option. (PROVIDED that if we don't include AW-159 or any new version of AW-139)

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## Gentelman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Bcz of LRSAM. Its better to detect and destroy Supersonic Anti ship Missile from as far as possible. Also you don't want enemy MPAs closed to your surface fleets. Also your Long range Radars of destroyers can help guide your Long Range Anti Ship Missiles


Bigger the targer, greater the chance for destruction amd more will be morale loss.... 
Missile interseption in itself is a complex thing with low success rate let alone a ram jet based missile... And how many missiles can we interrupt? IN have a strong heavy jets presence which can also carry that missile you're talking about. 
So we have to decide if we want to fire the missiles and pish away enemy or let enemy fire missiles and try hiding our assets. 
MPA will not be too close to our border if we have a seperate air arm of PN. Its the need of time.
We already lost our PAFs strategic bombers squadron in pages of history. 
PN should be small with multiple medium multipurpose boats to deliver the punch with SFs, subs and air arm. 
Once we are on a backfoot we don't have a lot of space to effectively hide or run away, it'll be more or like 1971 or 1965....


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## Pakistani Fighter

Gentelman said:


> Once we are on a backfoot


How to prevent this?


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## Gentelman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> How to prevent this?


Simply by putting them on backfoot... 
They have much more to loose. So make them loose some and their specific force will go into hiding.
But can suddenly attack unexpectedly...
Moreover the future naval war will be based on fast Electronic Intelligence and its effective usage into planning strategic ops so EW, AWEACS and MPAs can be deciding factors...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Germany is acquiring the Naval versions of NH-90 named as Sea Lion to replace Sea King and Sea Tiger to replace Sea Lynx.
> My speculation is, alongside AW-101, NH-90 can also become an option. (PROVIDED that if we don't include AW-159 or any new version of AW-139)


I think the AW139 (or T625) will come to the PN regardless. The PN also flies old Alouette IIIs, and its SAR needs will increase in the coming years (especially with the influx of OPVs and the MSA's 1,500-ton MOPVs). But if they acquire the AW159 or heavily modified AW139 (for SAR), then NH-90/MH-60R is out.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the AW139 (or T625) will come to the PN regardless. The PN also flies old Alouette IIIs, and its SAR needs will increase in the coming years (especially with the influx of OPVs and the MSA's 1,500-ton MOPVs). But if they acquire the AW159 or heavily modified AW139 (for SAR), then NH-90/MH-60R is out.



Don't think it will be AW-101 or NH-90. PN hanger size will be small, especially on Yarmook Class and MILGEM. Deck clearance may be an issue too. My guess is either Naval AW139 or Wildcat.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.
> 
> The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform.
> 
> If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.



Something tells me the AW101 might actually be a reality, a few years from now. IA.

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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> About 990km
> India has supersonic AshM and its better that it be 8ntercepted as far away as possible. Also you don't want enemy's MPAs to come close to your ships




But theres no actual reason to invest in a larger, costlier platform when the HHQ-16 based ones will suffice just fine, 70km isnt a small amount, especially not when itll be assisted with other assets, i.e MPA's and AEWAC's aircraft to assist with targetting


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Something tells me the AW101 might actually be a reality, a few years from now. IA.


If so, then the PN is moving towards a heavyweight/lightweight combination, i.e., AW101 (heavy/shore-based) and AW159/AW139 (light/ship-based). But I reckon AW159 is contingent on the PAA receiving T129s, since they'd share the same engine (and can use the same MRO facility at PAC). Now, if the AH-1Zs are coming through, then perhaps the CTS800 for the ATAKs are following too, which paves the road for AW159.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If so, then the PN is moving towards a heavyweight/lightweight combination, i.e., AW101 (heavy/shore-based) and AW159/AW139 (light/ship-based). But I reckon AW159 is contingent on the PAA receiving T129s, since they'd share the same engine (and can use the same MRO facility at PAC). Now, if the AH-1Zs are coming through, then perhaps the CTS800 for the ATAKs are following too, which paves the road for AW159.


I dont think AW159 would come, but rather the AW139/AW189/Z20 are what seems to be of interest. 

Issue with Z20 is that it is a very new platform, and yet to mature. 

On the T129, I was surprised to learn that the Turks were denied license to export to the Philippines as well. So best if we move on from the T129

*Philippine attack helicopter purchase descends into deadlock*
*20 May, 20*
*https://helihub.com/2020/05/20/philippine-attack-helicopter-purchase-descends-into-deadlock/*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> I dont think AW159 would come, but rather the AW139/AW189/Z20 are what seems to be of interest.
> 
> Issue with Z20 is that it is a very new platform, and yet to mature.
> 
> On the T129, I was surprised to learn that the Turks were denied license to export to the Philippines as well. So best if we move on from the T129
> 
> *Philippine attack helicopter purchase descends into deadlock*
> *20 May, 20*
> *https://helihub.com/2020/05/20/philippine-attack-helicopter-purchase-descends-into-deadlock/*


Yep, well if the AH-1Zs come, then we know that this time it wasn't Pakistan's fault (license denial). I reckon the Army will try slipping mmWs with the AH-1Zs, and then circle back to the Z-10ME in larger numbers.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, well if the AH-1Zs come, then we know that this time it wasn't Pakistan's fault (license denial). I reckon the Army will try slipping mmWs with the AH-1Zs, and then circle back to the Z-10ME in larger numbers.


The MMW's are coming IA, I just hope they have the Version 6 upgrades, which increases the range of the radar as well as Hellfire by 100%

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...hunting-capabilities-in-august/138363.article

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## Blacklight

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Lynx were part of the Type 21 deal and not a PN Choice.
> The spares were way too expensive in order to maintain 3 aircraft with not any real capability.
> 
> Hence the decision to replace them with Z-9 was taken.


How is the Z-9 in terms of performance and reliability?

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## Arsalan

Blacklight said:


> *The MMW's are coming IA*, I just hope they have the Version 6 upgrades, which increases the range of the radar as well as Hellfire by 100%
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...hunting-capabilities-in-august/138363.article



The MMW is coming IF we the helicopters. It is the helicopters that are in doubt right now. 

Do you have any update if they have been cleared for delivery now? I have no such news.


As for PN ASW helicopter options, yes Z-20 can be an ideal platform as we can use them on-board ships, from shore and PA and PAF will be interested in acquiring a few as well. However the issue is that it is not a mature platform yet. I think we will see Z-9 with type 54 and a western platform for Milgem and shore based ASW helicopter fleet.

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## Blacklight

Arsalan said:


> The MMW is coming IF we the helicopters. It is the helicopters that are in doubt right now.
> 
> Do you have any update if they have been cleared for delivery now? I have no such news.



Sir, they are coming, @airomerix confirmed it as well:

_the news of AH-1Z Zulu's return does hold water as @Blacklight mentioned._
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-acquire-five-c-130j-super-hercules.670286/

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Sir, they are coming, @airomerix confirmed it as well:
> 
> _the news of AH-1Z Zulu's return does hold water as @Blacklight mentioned._
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-acquire-five-c-130j-super-hercules.670286/


Have TPS 77 MRR Pak got yet?


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## Arsalan

Blacklight said:


> Sir, they are coming, @airomerix confirmed it as well:
> 
> _the news of AH-1Z Zulu's return does hold water as @Blacklight mentioned._
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-acquire-five-c-130j-super-hercules.670286/


Great, will discuss this further on the relevant thread. Thanks for sharing this.



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Have TPS 77 MRR Pak got yet?


Let take this discussion to the AH-1Z thread.

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## CHI RULES

Tipu7 said:


> Pakistan Navy will definitely move ahead to Destroyer size vessels once it will complete its contemporary fleet modernization process.
> 
> Provided that Economic Support is available, PN will transform into a conventional deterrent and will be able to counter entire Indian Navy of future in case of conflict. Alongside procurements of new platforms, a wide array of missile systems will continue to develop.
> 
> What we see now - the projects of OPVs, subs upgradation, scout drones, Type-54AP, MPAs, AEWCS are initial phase of PN Modernization program. (2018- 2022).
> 
> Next phase includes J-class, New helicopters, Midgets, F22P overhaul, New AIP Subs, Destroyers, LR-MPA, MALE UAVs. (2022-2028).
> 
> There are atleast two confidential projects underway which will also complete somewhere within this time frame.


Confidential part is the interesting one, thanks for detailed reply.



Tipu7 said:


> It's not a confidential project.



My guess is Nuclear Sub.

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## Aamir Hussain

Pakistani Fighter said:


> What about AW 159?
> 
> 
> 7300E or 7500E are analogous to APS-143C(V)3 OceanEye on P8 I think. I am talking about AN/APY 10 which looks like anti sub radar on P8. P8 has 3 types of detection systems CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system, APS-143C(V)3 multimode radar and a global version of the Raytheon APY-10 surveillance radar.



It is a very good platform but at 46 million dollars/helo it is quite expensive. On top of that our experience with Lynx was not good. Italian Navy is not using it but Augusta/Leonardo is a partner in development and production. 

Furthermore, the LHTEC CTS800 engines used on wildcat are produced by Honeywell in collaboration with Rolls Royce . I am not sure on approvals from US, if any, are required from.



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 639750
> 
> 
> View attachment 639751
> 
> View attachment 639754


Thx for sharing these pics. If I may ask, what are the rectangular fairings just below the pilot entry doors? Is it a side looking radar array of some kind or a flotation equipment panel?


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## LKJ86

Aamir Hussain said:


> Thx for sharing these pics. If I may ask, what are the rectangular fairings just below the pilot entry doors? Is it a side looking radar array of some kind or a flotation equipment panel?

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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 639750
> 
> 
> View attachment 639751
> 
> View attachment 639754


Thx for sharing these pics. If I may ask, what are the rectangular fairings just below the pilot entry doors? Is it a side looking radar array of some kind or a flotation equipment panel?


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 640244



Thx. So it is panels for flotation gear. There seems to be another hard point forward of the torpedo hard point. Do you by any chance know the purpose of it?


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## LKJ86

Aamir Hussain said:


> There seems to be another hard point forward of the torpedo hard point. Do you by any chance know the purpose of it?

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bro IMO the only tech USA will release will probably be of the most benign category. Therefore, very futile or add limited benefits at most. They might give us some munitions or other tid bits but nothing significant. We should gather whatever few billions we have saved to try to start our own projects. 

Either make the bigger project at home and get the subsystems through JVs or the other way around(let you judge since you probably know what approach is best in that regard).

But it is high time for Pak Mil-Ind complex to get off their behinds, stop making flops like dragoon and that pathetic Israeli Wildcat copy. And finally make products that are meaningful and the even the gora wants to buy from us instead us falling in their feet for overpriced products(which we could partially make at home and JV).

*If Iran can do it with the whole world sanctioning them then I think we can too.*
Provided they haven't been able to do anything in aviation. But in other areas they have done so much, with almost nothing.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If so, then the PN is moving towards a heavyweight/lightweight combination, i.e., AW101 (heavy/shore-based) and AW159/AW139 (light/ship-based). But I reckon AW159 is contingent on the PAA receiving T129s, since they'd share the same engine (and can use the same MRO facility at PAC). Now, if the AH-1Zs are coming through, then perhaps the CTS800 for the ATAKs are following too, which paves the road for AW159.

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## Rashid Mahmood

LKJ86 said:


> Just like that PN decides to buy Type 054A/P when China is about to stop all the production of Type 054A.



Let if fly with the PLAN for some years with active naval deployments, then it will qualify for consideration.

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## Path-Finder

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 640247
> View attachment 640248


is this powered by Ukranian engine?


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## Ahmet Pasha

If so please tell Army and AF to get it as well. So they have commonality and scale. Other wise our aviation fleets are always too mix n match.


Rashid Mahmood said:


> Let if fly with the PLAN for some years with active naval deployments, then it will qualify for consideration.

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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 640247
> View attachment 640248



Thanks for the info. interesting details in all pics. 

I have as usual some questions. In the first pic what is aft of the torpedo. It looks like some kind of drogue with its own pylon?

The second pic seems to be depicting two version of Z-20, one a naval version of assault/troop carrying helo maybe optimized for sea operations for marines. The other is an ASW/ASh version. If you can for the readers here, translate the Chinese into English the text (Hidden I guess or not shown here) against each number please? This will enhance the understanding of the readers greatly as to the capabilities of the platform.

Furthermore, the pic with a red banner on top has the same helo showing perhaps a sono buoy dispenser built into the aft side of the helo just before the tail assembly merges into the main body of the craft?

And sir can you elaborate on the flat roofed dome aft of the engine exhaust on the tail and the chin mounted dome. Presumably both are some kind of radars, but can we have description or types of radar. Also there is a another flat dome on the bottom center line where presumably there should have been an arrester hook for the RAST.

Btw are these variants in production or are these artist rendition of planned versions? 

Sir if we have this info. we can enhance our understanding and capabilities of this excellent evolving platform.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Ahmet Pasha said:


> If so please tell Army and AF to get it as well. So they have commonality and scale. Other wise our aviation fleets are always too mix n match.



It has never happened before.
Army & PAF requirements for a helo is different than the PN. 

However, this platform has all the versions just like the SH-60, and if in the future, we do intend to acquire these machines, then it can be acquired in all versions to suit the requirement of Army, Navy & PAF.

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## Yasser76

Rashid Mahmood said:


> It has never happened before.
> Army & PAF requirements for a helo is different than the PN.
> 
> However, this platform has all the versions just like the SH-60, and if in the future, we do intend to acquire these machines, then it can be acquired in all versions to suit the requirement of Army, Navy & PAF.



Actually happened with Aloutte III

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## LKJ86

Path-Finder said:


> is this powered by Ukranian engine?


They are powered by China's own WZ-10 engines.



Aamir Hussain said:


> Btw are these variants in production or are these artist rendition of planned versions?


Type 052DG DDG and Type 055 DDG are designed for these helicopters.


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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> I think PN should look towards taking a stake in Z-20F and build up the ship-board fleet from there. China will invest in shipboard helis as this an area that they lag behind. Z-9 are light helos. When the type 54 comes in, Z-20F would be a good choice to go for.


Which platforms of the PN can it be accommodated? Help appreciated


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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Which platforms of the PN can it be accommodated? Help appreciated


You get the point.


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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> You get the point.


What about Type 54A's or Type 54AP?


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## LKJ86

Aamir Hussain said:


> What about Type 54A's or Type 54AP?


Maybe Type 054B(?) can..

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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> They are powered by China's own WZ-10 engines.
> 
> 
> Type 052DG DDG and Type 055 DDG are designed for these helicopters.
> 
> View attachment 640433
> View attachment 640434



Thank you for the reply. Wenever you have the opportunity or time can you please reply to my other question on Z-20F and its Assault derivative



araz said:


> Which platforms of the PN can it be accommodated? Help appreciated


 
Salam Araz Sb.:

IMHO and according to LKJ86 none, or it seem so. The only platforms we can equip them with will be the two Fleet Replenishment ships or to replace the Sea King operating from land for ASW/ASh/Commando role.

However, Sea Kings are still a very capable platform with automated ASW grid search and a powerful dunking sonar + the capability to launch AShM (Exocet).

If we can integrate these and other things than this helo is ITAR free and cost effective.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> Thank you for the reply. Wenever you have the opportunity or time can you please reply to my other question on Z-20F and its Assault derivative
> 
> 
> 
> Salam Araz Sb.:
> 
> IMHO and according to LKJ86 none, or it seem so. The only platforms we can equip them with will be the two Fleet Replenishment ships or to replace the Sea King operating from land for ASW/ASh/Commando role.
> 
> However, Sea Kings are still a very capable platform with automated ASW grid search and a powerful dunking sonar + the capability to launch AShM (Exocet).
> 
> If we can integrate these and other things than this helo is ITAR free and cost effective.


IMO the AW189K is the dark horse candidate.

It's basically the AW149, but with a non-ITAR engine from Safran.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Same goes for U.S military but they sat down together and figured out how they can solve this problem. We can do same if we put our minds to it.


Rashid Mahmood said:


> It has never happened before.
> Army & PAF requirements for a helo is different than the PN.
> 
> However, this platform has all the versions just like the SH-60, and if in the future, we do intend to acquire these machines, then it can be acquired in all versions to suit the requirement of Army, Navy & PAF.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Same goes for U.S military but they sat down together and figured out how they can solve this problem. We can do same if we put our minds to it.



We should.
It's the best way.

A common platform has many benefits.



Yasser76 said:


> Actually happened with Aloutte III



Yes it did.
I missed it.

and we trained our pilots with the Army Aviation due to this common platform.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the AW189K is the dark horse candidate.
> 
> It's basically the AW149, but with a non-ITAR engine from Safran.


 Yes it can be considered.



araz said:


> Which platforms of the PN can it be accommodated? Help appreciated



Presently only on the 2 tankers.
Later on the Type 54 if PN goes for a larger flight deck.

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## Scorpiooo

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I would say getting 4 Type 052Ds and some more frigates and corvettes than we can say its better than brown water navy





Pakistani Fighter said:


> I would say getting 4 Type 052Ds and some more frigates and corvettes than we can say its better than brown water navy


Can we afford type 52D ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Our next step should be the 052D. 
After the F-22Ps & T-54s, we should start building our own FFGs.

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## Areesh

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Our next step should be the 052D.
> After the F-22Ps & T-54s, we should start building our own FFGs.



Agreed 101%

Don't know if PN leadership has any plans for it

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## Armchair

I hope that along with the local FFG, more Azmat class are produced locally. More importantly, if the local SAM system can be made to work. It's been in development forever. 

The critical factor is building real subsystems like the Harbah. 

Also a few more issues: 

1. There is a huge gap in tonnage between the Azmat and the Yarmouk class. Something should be developed for a class inbetween them. A Corvette rather than jumping from FAC to a Frigate. 

2. Rashid Mahmood discussing 052 is surprising for me. This suggests PN is interested in a completely different tragectory than everyone has assumed. It suggests PN is headed to become CPEC policeman in these parts. If 4x 052s come in, size wise Pakistan would become very competitive to the Indian navy. 

3. There is such an emphasis on large purchases that the small boats seem to have been left out. Except that @Tipu7 dropped the bombshell of the Midgets. which means small coastal submarines, perhaps locally manufactured.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Our next step should be the 052D.
> After the F-22Ps & T-54s, we should start building our own FFGs.



I had been saying it

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## LKJ86

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Our next step should be the 052D.
> After the F-22Ps & T-54s, we should start building our own FFGs.


IMO, when PN is ready to buy Type 052D DDG, its production has stopped already.

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## Cookie Monster

Armchair said:


> I hope that along with the local FFG, more Azmat class are produced locally. More importantly, if the local SAM system can be made to work. It's been in development forever.


Pak can only work on so many projects...
...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.

There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.

So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.


Armchair said:


> The critical factor is building real subsystems like the Harbah.
> 
> Also a few more issues:
> 
> 1. There is a huge gap in tonnage between the Azmat and the Yarmouk class. Something should be developed for a class inbetween them. A Corvette rather than jumping from FAC to a Frigate


I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from Azmat(FAC) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO


Armchair said:


> 2. Rashid Mahmood discussing 052 is surprising for me. This suggests PN is interested in a completely different tragectory than everyone has assumed. It suggests PN is headed to become CPEC policeman in these parts. If 4x 052s come in, size wise Pakistan would become very competitive to the Indian navy.
> 
> 3. There is such an emphasis on large purchases that the small boats seem to have been left out. Except that @Tipu7 dropped the bombshell of the Midgets. which means small coastal submarines, perhaps locally manufactured.


Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.


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## Armchair

Cookie Monster said:


> Pak can only work on so many projects...
> ...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.
> 
> There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.
> 
> So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
> ...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.
> 
> I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from FAC(Azmat) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO
> 
> Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
> ...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.



I personally would classify it closer to a light frigate with 2500-2700 tons when all is said and done to it. 500 tons to 2500 tons is a big jump.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Armchair said:


> I hope that along with the local FFG, more Azmat class are produced locally. More importantly, if the local SAM system can be made to work. It's been in development forever.
> 
> The critical factor is building real subsystems like the Harbah.
> 
> Also a few more issues:
> 
> 1. There is a huge gap in tonnage between the Azmat and the Yarmouk class. Something should be developed for a class inbetween them. A Corvette rather than jumping from FAC to a Frigate.
> 
> 2. Rashid Mahmood discussing 052 is surprising for me. This suggests PN is interested in a completely different tragectory than everyone has assumed. It suggests PN is headed to become CPEC policeman in these parts. If 4x 052s come in, size wise Pakistan would become very competitive to the Indian navy.
> 
> 3. There is such an emphasis on large purchases that the small boats seem to have been left out. Except that @Tipu7 dropped the bombshell of the Midgets. which means small coastal submarines, perhaps locally manufactured.




It is my personal opinion and nothing to do with PN.

However, it should not be surprising at all. Having built the F22Ps and then Milgems, logically PN should move towards building it's very own FFGs, which has been on he design table for some time.

PN has operated Gearing and Brooke DDGs in the past, so acquiring the 052D is nothing out of the blue. 

IN has Dehli Class and Kolkata Class DDGs, and we have to be prepared to defend against them.



LKJ86 said:


> IMO, when PN is ready to buy Type 052D DDG, its production has stopped already.



We do not buy OTS vessels.
We modify them to our own requirements.

When the time comes, we will see.

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## Falcon26

Cookie Monster said:


> Pak can only work on so many projects...
> ...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.
> 
> There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.
> 
> So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
> ...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.
> 
> I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from FAC(Azmat) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO
> 
> Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
> ...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.



I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.


I'd wager the project is ongoing, but it'll be a while before they can use it in a submarine. IMHO a miniature reactor for a submarine is about as complex as reactor design work can get, especially with safety, mitigating acoustics, etc all being key factors. If they're serious about this, they may have to go through several design generations before they'll have a serviceable system.

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## Cookie Monster

Falcon26 said:


> I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.


Probably going on still...on and off
...I assume during Zardari era funding must have dried up as it did for a lot of things. However according to Rafi(relatively recently) it's moving along...so things are probably progressing again. I think it's moving at that pace bcuz there's no hurry right now.

IMO Pak is developing it in parallel to other capabilities. It would be useless to have it ready while other pieces are not ready.
- One of these key pieces would be submarine building capability. I think the Hangor class order of submarines is supposed to provide that for Pak...if I recall correctly 4 of those 8 will be built in Pak.
- SLCM relatively recently demonstrated...which is a key piece if a SSGN is to be developed.
- For a SSBN...IMO the only way it is truly worthwhile is with ICBMs on board. This way it can be hiding anywhere in the world and still strike the enemy while being far from reach. In that case Pak doesn't yet have an ICBM...which would further have to be developed into an SLBM. This will take time...and can probably also be developed in parallel. MIRV is being developed...which is helpful for submarine based ICBMs(especially now and more so in the future as India is building more and more of its Air Defense assets).

So I think by the time some of these other capabilities are ready...the reactor should be roughly ready. The last of the 8 Hangor submarines are supposed to be delivered by 2028 I think. So Pak has probably another 10-15 years for this reactor and other pieces to be ready...and converge into a true second strike capability.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> IN has Dehli Class and Kolkata Class DDGs, and we have to be prepared to defend against them.


Dehli, Kolkata and Rajput Class. In future the most advanced ones Visakhapatnam Destroyers will be there too

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## Rashid Mahmood

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd wager the project is ongoing, but it'll be a while before they can use it in a submarine. IMHO a miniature reactor for a submarine is about as complex as reactor design work can get, especially with safety, mitigating acoustics, etc all being key factors. If they're serious about this, they may have to go through several design generations before they'll have a serviceable system.


 
The new Hangor Class Sub may be the test vehicle.

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## Aamir Hussain

Rashid Mahmood said:


> PN has operated Gearing and Brooke DDGs in the past, so acquiring the 052D is nothing out of the blue.



Both Brooks and Garcia class were essentially Frigates but designated initially as destroyer escorts.

Gearings of FRAMM programs were also DE's.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Aamir Hussain said:


> Both Brooks and Garcia class were essentially Frigates but designated initially as destroyer escorts.
> 
> Gearings of FRAMM programs were also DE's.



I have served on both of them.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2368

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## bananarepublic

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I have served on both of them.



Would love to hear you experience on them and your role on those ships

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rashid Mahmood said:


> We do not buy OTS vessels.
> We modify them to our own requirements.
> 
> When the time comes, we will see.



China has recently restarted the production of the Type 054A for the PLAN.

Maybe the production of the Type 052DL will keep going until after 2030.

Only the original Type 052D has been no longer in production.

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## Armchair

If Pakistan can:
1. Learn how to design and build ships
2. Build some key components like a SAM system and AShMs

Pakistan should not thereafter import more ships unless at bargain basement prices. Rather, Pakistan should develop:

1. A Jinnah Class in the 3000 ton range
2. A new corvette in the 1000-1500 ton range
3. An enlarged Azmat class in the 600 ton range
4. 500 ton range submarine

Support these with a powerfule LRMPA fleet and en even more powerful PN-AF with a fighter with decent numbers.

This setup takes care of virtually all threat scenarios. 

Additionally, Pakistan should invest in an under-water detection system local to Pakistan's shores - small scale SOSUS which is what NATO and the Chinese have done. Makes detection of enemy submarines a lot less problematic than having tons of frigates, submarines and LRMPA. 

Finally, a SAR satellite would be an added bonus.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> If Pakistan can:
> 1. Learn how to design and build ships
> 2. Build some key components like a SAM system and AShMs
> 
> Pakistan should not thereafter import more ships unless at bargain basement prices. Rather, Pakistan should develop:
> 
> 1. A Jinnah Class in the 3000 ton range
> 2. A new corvette in the 1000-1500 ton range
> 3. An enlarged Azmat class in the 600 ton range
> 4. 500 ton range submarine
> 
> Support these with a powerfule LRMPA fleet and en even more powerful PN-AF with a fighter with decent numbers.
> 
> This setup takes care of virtually all threat scenarios.
> 
> Additionally, Pakistan should invest in an under-water detection system local to Pakistan's shores - small scale SOSUS which is what NATO and the Chinese have done. Makes detection of enemy submarines a lot less problematic than having tons of frigates, submarines and LRMPA.
> 
> Finally, a SAR satellite would be an added bonus.


I think the MILGEM-J is close to 3,000 tons. Or, rather, bringing it to the 3,000 ton range (e.g. if it's say 2,800 tons) isn't going to add much relative to the cost of the redesign. Rather, they should figure out how to cut costs further (localization, in-house SAM, AShM, etc) and roll-out another 8-12 such ships through the long-term.

In parallel, I'd challenge MTC to figure out a way to copy what Denmark did with the Iver Huitfeldt Frigate, specifically the ability to design a 6,000-ton frigate with a cost of around $320 m per ship. Load this ship with VLS for LR-SAM and LACM, and a 4x3 or 4x4 AShM. If we can build 6 such ships to complement 12-16 MILGEM-Js...

I agree with the idea of a new corvette, but only on the condition that it is _*packed *_with firepower -- i.e., 2x8 or 2x6 AShM, 2x3 ASW, and, at least an 8-cell VLS for a MR-SAM. If they can rope in a PDMS like the Denel Cheetah CRAM, and a telescopic helicopter hangar too, then all the better. I don't think it's impossible. In fact, the Turks were toying with such designs already, see: Delta Marine C1200.

I'm torn on enlarging the FAC(M)/Azmat. If you have a 1,000+ ton corvette, then you're really eating into the need for an FAC as large as the Azmat. In this case, the better option might be to go smaller, lighter, stealthier, and faster. Now, if you're packing a 2x3 or 2x4 AShM load, you might not be able to get much smaller, but there is opportunity with making the FAC(M) lighter (composites, fiberglass, etc) and faster (e.g., CODAG).

I think, ultimately, MTC should take up the challenge of taking what it learned about the FAC(M) and will learn about the MILGEM-J to design a clean-sheet 1,000-1,500-ton corvette and a clean-sheet 500-ton FAC(M).

Besides a 500-ton SWAT, we should also engage in a full-sized SSP program too. Perhaps draw on STM's xTS1700 concept and develop it through the long-term to eventually replace the Agosta 90B, and expand the fleet.

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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the MILGEM-J is close to 3,000 tons. Or, rather, bringing it to the 3,000 ton range (e.g. if it's say 2,800 tons) isn't going to add much relative to the cost of the redesign. Rather, they should figure out how to cut costs further (localization, in-house SAM, AShM, etc) and roll-out another 8-12 such ships through the long-term.
> 
> In parallel, I'd challenge MTC to figure out a way to copy what Denmark did with the Iver Huitfeldt Frigate, specifically the ability to design a 6,000-ton frigate with a cost of around $320 m per ship. Load this ship with VLS for LR-SAM and LACM, and a 4x3 or 4x4 AShM. If we can build 6 such ships to complement 12-16 MILGEM-Js...
> 
> I agree with the idea of a new corvette, but only on the condition that it is _*packed *_with firepower -- i.e., 2x8 or 2x6 AShM, 2x3 ASW, and, at least an 8-cell VLS for a MR-SAM. If they can rope in a PDMS like the Denel Cheetah CRAM, and a telescopic helicopter hangar too, then all the better. I don't think it's impossible. In fact, the Turks were toying with such designs already, see: Delta Marine C1200.
> 
> I'm torn on enlarging the FAC(M)/Azmat. If you have a 1,000+ ton corvette, then you're really eating into the need for an FAC as large as the Azmat. In this case, the better option might be to go smaller, lighter, stealthier, and faster. Now, if you're packing a 2x3 or 2x4 AShM load, you might not be able to get much smaller, but there is opportunity with making the FAC(M) lighter (composites, fiberglass, etc) and faster (e.g., CODAG).
> 
> I think, ultimately, MTC should take up the challenge of taking what it learned about the FAC(M) and will learn about the MILGEM-J to design a clean-sheet 1,000-1,500-ton corvette and a clean-sheet 500-ton FAC(M).
> 
> Besides a 500-ton SWAT, we should also engage in a full-sized SSP program too. Perhaps draw on STM's xTS1700 concept and develop it through the long-term to eventually replace the Agosta 90B, and expand the fleet.



sir what engines are we using on the Turkish and Chinese ships ?is there any chance you can do an article about up coming engine technology or even compare both Chinese and Turkish engines for Pakistani ships .Rolls Royce have supplied New Zealand navy with this new auxiliary ship but they have used some new fuel efficient engine 
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hmnzs-aotearoa-logistics-support-vessel/
any chance for us to get similar engines from them for j -class ships may be for the next batch ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mikaal hassan said:


> sir what engines are we using on the Turkish and Chinese ships ?is there any chance you can do an article about up coming engine technology or even compare both Chinese and Turkish engines for Pakistani ships .Rolls Royce have supplied New Zealand navy with this new auxiliary ship but they have used some new fuel efficient engine
> https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hmnzs-aotearoa-logistics-support-vessel/
> any chance for us to get similar engines from them for j -class ships may be for the next batch ?


Turkish will likely be MTU CODAD.

Chinese are Chinese CODAD.


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## Armchair

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I generally agree with what you wrote and we seem to be on the same page. There are a few caveats however. 

Generally, it is not the physical structure of the ship that is costly - they can make up as little as 20-30% of the costs. The real costs are in what you add in terms of subsystems. This is why adding all the goodies in a small ship does not generally make sense. 

If you have a corvette in the 1200 ton range, for me it doesn't make sense for it to have a hangar and a helicopter. This is because the helicopter is costing you $20-$50 million USD. If you include various specialized equipment, that cost increases by 50%. All for what purpose? The ship doesn't have enough endurance to make best utilization of the helicopter. Also, even more importantly, the ship cannot operate the helicopter at relatively higher sea states. small ships are not as stable as large ones, and when a ship is rocking about in weather, and their is wind involved, operating helicopters can be a nightmare or not possible at all. 

For me the role that a slightly enlarged Azmat class or a larger corvette can play is very different from trying to be a mini-frigate. Their role is two fold:

1. To act as a screen for PN's capital ships
2. To supplement the firepower of PN's capital ships

(1) is achieved by the onboard CIWS / PDMS / SAMs. As well as ASW sensors and weapons onboard. 
(2) is achieved by a healthy number of AShMs and data linking. 

So, a PN task force can have: 

1 Type 54
1 J-class
1 Yarmook
1. F-22P
2 Corvettes
2 Azmat Class

This is a much more powerful force than the four ships alone. That is, the whole is greater than the sum of parts. 

The Azmat is an FAC / OPV only by name. In reality it is essentially a _Sloop-of-War. _A small FAC is useless except of a primitive defense of Karachi, or to a lesser extent Gwadar. They are not useful for a task force for the PN. They have no endurance or sea keeping ability to help PN's task forces, or act in any coordinated manner with the task force. 

The need for an FAC was outdated or became of very limited use, the day PN got coastal batteries with classified ranges.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> specifically the ability to design a 6,000-ton frigate with a cost of around $320 m per ship



For me, anything above 5000 tons is a Destroyer. I am personally against having destroyers for PN's requirements. Perhaps in very small numbers. I think it puts a lot of eggs in one basket. Perhaps 1 destroyer per task force is a compromise. 

Building a ship in Pakistan is actually costlier than getting a ship built in China. Perhaps the engineering plan can be Pakistani-Turkish, the actual physical ship can be built in China, and the subsystems can be Turkish-Pakistani-Chinese-European.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I generally agree with what you wrote and we seem to be on the same page. There are a few caveats however.
> 
> Generally, it is not the physical structure of the ship that is costly - they can make up as little as 20-30% of the costs. The real costs are in what you add in terms of subsystems. This is why adding all the goodies in a small ship does not generally make sense.
> 
> If you have a corvette in the 1200 ton range, for me it doesn't make sense for it to have a hangar and a helicopter. This is because the helicopter is costing you $20-$50 million USD. If you include various specialized equipment, that cost increases by 50%. All for what purpose? The ship doesn't have enough endurance to make best utilization of the helicopter. Also, even more importantly, the ship cannot operate the helicopter at relatively higher sea states. small ships are not as stable as large ones, and when a ship is rocking about in weather, and their is wind involved, operating helicopters can be a nightmare or not possible at all.


That's why I think a telescopic hangar is a good idea. It's retractable and not meant to be a full-service facility as seen on larger ships. Rather, the idea is flexibility. You might not make use of helicopters very often, but you can use those facilities to deploy VTOL UAVs for ISTAR. In 3-5 years, I think we'll see VTOL UAVs capable of ASW too. 

I think we can control the cost of the subsystems and weapons of a corvette via in-house design. Pakistan doesn't yet have the industrial capacity to manufacture everything at home, but it can break-free of OEMs by designing a suite of radars, sonars, ESM/EW/EA, CMS, etc, by using COTS inputs. Likewise, a venture with the South Africans on the Umkhonto EIR and Cheetah CRAM would yield lower-cost AAW solutions. 

With enough ingenuity, I think we can pull the cost of a true multi-mission corvette to $90-120 m per ship with all of its weapons _and _a helicopter. The latter need not be high-end like AW159, but rather, AW139 or AW169.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> AW139



Hi Bilal, the militarized and navalized version of the AW-139 is going to cost you $20 million approximately. Perhaps more with specialized equipment.

It won't function as well from such a small ship. I think you missed the explanation I gave why up there and I don't want to repeat myself.

Again, I fear I am repeating myself here - the physical structure of the ship is not that expensive. If you have a $120 million hitech corvette as you noted (firstly its a cost underestimation but we will get into that later), the physical ship will cost you 25% approx. So that is $30 million. If you doubled the size of the ship, it would only cost you about $50 million (assuming your base cost is right). A mere $20 million more. 

So we end up with the Yarmouk class then - big enough to allow a helicopter to land in relatively rough seas and operate - remember India won't just attack on a calm day. Big enough to allow extended and effective operations at sea and not be shore bound.

So it doesn't make sense to have a Corvette that is armed like a Frigate.

I do agree that whether its a Corvette or a 600 ton enlarged Azmat, they should both operate UAVs, something roughly equal to a Camcopter.

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## Michel Niesten

27th of June the next ATR72 of the Pakistan Navy (serial 77) will arrive in Germany for upgrade to RAS-72 Sea Eagle

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> 27th of June the next ATR72 of the Pakistan Navy (serial 77) will arrive in Germany for upgrade to RAS-72 Sea Eagle


Thank you . It will be 3rd Sea Eagle right ???


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## Michel Niesten

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Thank you . It will be 3rd Sea Eagle right ???



Yes indeed

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## Pakistani Fighter

Armchair said:


> I am personally against having destroyers for PN's requirements.


Why?



Michel Niesten said:


> 27th of June the next ATR72 of the Pakistan Navy (serial 77) will arrive in Germany for upgrade to RAS-72 Sea Eagle


How much time it takes to get upgraded?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> Yes indeed


Thank you for reply .


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## Michel Niesten

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why?
> 
> 
> How much time it takes to get upgraded?



Hard to say, the first one took almost 2 years to upgrade. Because it was a new project, all systems had to be tested extensively. Second ATR took less than a year. So I expect this one to be finished somewhere between 6-10 months

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## syed_yusuf

It seems eventually PNwill going to have 4 atr upgraded not bad at all

At be up to 7 if they go for 1:1 Fokker replacement

But it seems due to funds PN is going for one per year upgrade so it might take another 4 toyto 5 to get all 7 done appx

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## aziqbal

Michel Niesten said:


> 27th of June the next ATR72 of the Pakistan Navy (serial 77) will arrive in Germany for upgrade to RAS-72 Sea Eagle



this is great news we really do need more of these type if aircraft I believe the final number could be as high as 6 units 

we managed to snap that Indian submarine last year during standoff which shocked the Indians and the rest watching 

however I believe that was the P3C Orion aircraft that took the photo I could be wrong and we have only 7 units 

ZDK-03 we have 4 if we can add 6 x MPA it would give a good mix 

I would also like to see 12-24 x medium sized naval helicopters from a European supplier dedicated for naval operations 

and keeping bringing the home built UAV to the assets

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## kursed

The Turks are putting MAD on their ATR-72 MELTEM-III program and even Italy is using it for their P-72A, why are we not adapting something similar for RAS-72 Sea Eagle platform? It cannot be costing. So, ITAR? Or any other reasons?


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## Akh1112

kursed said:


> The Turks are putting MAD on their ATR-72 MELTEM-III program and even Italy is using it for their P-72A, why are we not adapting something similar for RAS-72 Sea Eagle platform? It cannot be costing. So, ITAR? Or any other reasons?




IMO, having more capacity for sonobuoys and other detection/processing equipment is more beneficial than a MAD. The US navy agrees too, hence why you do not see an MAD on the P-8


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## kursed

Akh1112 said:


> IMO, having more capacity for sonobuoys and other detection/processing equipment is more beneficial than a MAD. The US navy agrees too, hence why you do not see an MAD on the P-8


Americans actually have more detection methods at play, with their ships, drones and satellites. And while they are not using AN/ASQ 508 on P8, they do have it on their SH-60 and SH-2 airborne platforms. They are also using drones as High Altitude ASW platforms with MAD onboard, in conjunction with the P8. Which means a single P8 can deploy multiples of these drones over a large area to look for a sub, instead of just carrying one big stick at its behind. This is a doctrinal difference.

While, I see Italians, Indians and Turks - all using MAD on their birds. The Turks and Italians specifically on the same platform as us. Which just makes me wonder, why are we not opting for it.

The only real difference between RAS-72 and MELTEMIII / P-72A program seems to be the MAD capability, rest of it is pretty much the same kit (albeit via different partners and I cannot comment on the processing capacity of computers on board, since I do not know it).

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## syed_yusuf

Why PN atr has just 2 HP while Turkish and italian has 4


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## kursed

syed_yusuf said:


> Why PN atr has just 2 HP while Turkish and italian has 4


Our's has 4 hardpoints as well, as far as I could read the details, they'd be installed as per requirement.


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## Michel Niesten

Since the ATR Meltem programma started in Turkey in 2008, the first has just been delivered I think in 2020? That means 12 years from start to first delivery. The RAS-72 has been a much more succesful project if you ask me. German precision?

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## kursed

Michel Niesten said:


> Since the ATR Meltem programma started in Turkey in 2008, the first has just been delivered I think in 2020? That means 12 years from start to first delivery. The RAS-72 has been a much more succesful project if you ask me. German precision?


MELTEM-III program ran into delays due to an issue with their mission computer code, lost $50 million to it and program delays (as per public sources).

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## syed_yusuf

kursed said:


> Our's has 4 hardpoints as well, as far as I could read the details, they'd be installed as per requirement.


There is pictorial proof of it. All the pics of pn atr are with 2 HPs

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## Inception-06

Michel Niesten said:


> 27th of June the next ATR72 of the Pakistan Navy (serial 77) will arrive in Germany for upgrade to RAS-72 Sea Eagle



Welche Waffen trägt dieses Flugzeug noch außer Torpedos,wie kann es sich gegen Jagdflugzeuge wehren ? Und was ist die Hauptmission, nur bekämpfung von U-Boote ? Verglichen mit anderen Flugzeugen dieser Klasse, ist es völlig unterbewaffnet im Angriff wie auch defensiv, außer sie können etwas anderes berichten?


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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> IMO, having more capacity for sonobuoys and other detection/processing equipment is more beneficial than a MAD. The US navy agrees too, hence why you do not see an MAD on the P-8


well P8 are now being equipped with drone based MAD..so seems it has utility..


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## Michel Niesten

Inception-06 said:


> Welche Waffen trägt dieses Flugzeug noch außer Torpedos,wie kann es sich gegen Jagdflugzeuge wehren ? Und was ist die Hauptmission, nur bekämpfung von U-Boote ? Verglichen mit anderen Flugzeugen dieser Klasse, ist es völlig unterbewaffnet im Angriff wie auch defensiv, außer sie können etwas anderes berichten?



Lets keep it English, easier for the other readers... as far as I know, no defensive weapons can be carried against aircraft. But it has defensive capacities like chaff and flares, and likely some electronic countermeasures.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1420143124839809

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## Inception-06

Michel Niesten said:


> Lets keep it English, easier for the other readers... as far as I know, no defensive weapons can be carried against aircraft. But it has defensive capacities like chaff and flares, and likely some electronic countermeasures.



Thank you for answering, which version is More capabale the Germans or italian ? And which is cheaper ?


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## Syntage

syed_yusuf said:


> Why PN atr has just 2 HP while Turkish and italian has 4



I have the same concern.

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## Michel Niesten

Inception-06 said:


> Thank you for answering, which version is More capabale the Germans or italian ? And which is cheaper ?



Both questions I can’t answer... I don’t have enough knowledge on the technical aspects. However, the Italians use new built aircraft, the German version (in the Pakistani Navy order) is being built in aircraft already used, so therefore it might probably be a cheaper solution.

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## GriffinsRule

The Turkish and Italian (initial 2 were -500s but all later ones are -600s) versions are also based on a newer platform, ATR 72-600, while the PN variants are based on the older model of the aircraft itself, the ATR 72-212 (which seemingly is the same as the 500 series). I think the biggest difference in the two are related to the cockpit and avionics. 600s have a full digital cockpit whereas 212/500s have a mix of digital and analog displays.

On the armament/capabilities side, Turkish variant seems to be the most advanced. Between the PN and Italian, I would guess that the Italian version would have better sensor suite, however, it does not carry any offensive armaments unlike the Turkish and Pakistani ATRs.

Which is the most capable, I will leave each to reach their own conclusions by looking at their sensor fits and so on.

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## Readerdefence

GriffinsRule said:


> The Turkish and Italian (initial 2 were -500s but all later ones are -600s) versions are also based on a newer platform, ATR 72-600, while the PN variants are based on the older model of the aircraft itself, the ATR 72-212 (which seemingly is the same as the 500 series). I think the biggest difference in the two are related to the cockpit and avionics. 600s have a full digital cockpit whereas 212/500s have a mix of digital and analog displays.
> 
> On the armament/capabilities side, Turkish variant seems to be the most advanced. Between the PN and Italian, I would guess that the Italian version would have better sensor suite, however, it does not carry any offensive armaments unlike the Turkish and Pakistani ATRs.
> 
> Which is the most capable, I will leave each to reach their own conclusions by looking at their sensor fits and so on.


Hi is it possible to acquire Turkish armaments for PN version & what kind of armaments Turkish are carrying Are these local or imported if possible to answer 
Thank you


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## Incog_nito

Do you think PN is still looking for some Sea Kings to complement the current fleet?

As Sea King is a reliable Seaborn platform for Navy, MSA, & Coast Guard.


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## aziqbal

Incog_nito said:


> Do you think PN is still looking for some Sea Kings to complement the current fleet?
> 
> As Sea King is a reliable Seaborn platform for Navy, MSA, & Coast Guard.



they just took delivery from UK of 7 x Sea Kings and yes they are totally very reliable

3 were put into service and UK still has a large fleet and will retire mote units in the coming years

however I am not sure if they can fit well into our warships

what we need is this beast

Wildcat carrying 20 yes thats 20 Martlet (Lightweight Multi-role Missile)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aziqbal said:


> they just took delivery from UK of 7 x Sea Kings and yes they are totally very reliable
> 
> 3 were put into service and UK still has a large fleet and will retire mote units in the coming years
> 
> however I am not sure if they can fit well into our warships
> 
> what we need is this beast
> 
> Wildcat carrying 20 yes thats 20 Martlet (Lightweight Multi-role Missile)


Leonardo offered the AW159 to the PN. It's on the costly side -- around $55 m per helicopter (plus maintenance, logistics, training, etc) -- but could pair really well with the MILGEM-J.

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## Incog_nito

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo offered the AW159 to the PN. It's on the costly side -- around $55 m per helicopter (plus maintenance, logistics, training, etc) -- but could pair really well with the MILGEM-J.


At the moment PN needs robust choppers like Sea Kings.

Sea Kings are also good for MSA and Coast Guards as well.


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## Tipu7

The Third ATR-72 of PN has reached Germany for upgradation into RAS-72.

https://t.co/CcqCm7MaXu?amp=1

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## ziaulislam



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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo offered the AW159 to the PN. It's on the costly side -- around $55 m per helicopter (plus maintenance, logistics, training, etc) -- but could pair really well with the MILGEM-J.


Sir is PN really considering it or rejected it at all


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## Michel Niesten

Of course I also went to see the arrival of this ATR. I was surprised the ATR carried a crew of some 12 people. Quite a lot if you ask me.

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## ghazi52

Alan Warnes

@warnesyworld
· 1h
The third #PakistanNavy ATR72 arrived at Monchengladbach today. The aircraft based at PNS Mehran will be converted to a maritime patrol role by #RheinlandAirService. They modernised the previous two. Photo: WM
https://twitter.com/warnesyworld/status/1276950924406161410/photo/1

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## Test7

Pakistan Navy PN77 ATR 72-500 Maritime Patrol aircraft spotted out from Izmir, Turkey

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## Pinnacle

I can’t find any reason whatsoever for PN going towards ATR-72 despite having SAAB-2000 infrastructure in-house.


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## Yasser76

Pinnacle said:


> I can’t find any reason whatsoever for PN going towards ATR-72 despite having SAAB-2000 infrastructure in-house.



PIA ATR-72s and PN ATR-72s give us combined fleet of around 14 planes, PN aircraft will be based near Karachi which is also an engineering and maintenence hub of PIA.

Also tow major Pakistani defence partners (Italy and Turkey) have good experience and equipment in Marinised ATR aircraft

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## ghazi52



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## kursed

GriffinsRule said:


> The Turkish and Italian (initial 2 were -500s but all later ones are -600s) versions are also based on a newer platform, ATR 72-600, while the PN variants are based on the older model of the aircraft itself, the ATR 72-212 (which seemingly is the same as the 500 series). I think the biggest difference in the two are related to the cockpit and avionics. 600s have a full digital cockpit whereas 212/500s have a mix of digital and analog displays.
> 
> On the armament/capabilities side, Turkish variant seems to be the most advanced. Between the PN and Italian, I would guess that the Italian version would have better sensor suite, however, it does not carry any offensive armaments unlike the Turkish and Pakistani ATRs.
> 
> Which is the most capable, I will leave each to reach their own conclusions by looking at their sensor fits and so on.


The Italian version of all three is the most technically superior version, equipped with a sideways looking radar and a hyper spectral sensor, missing on the Pakistani Sea Eagle. The Turkish version is equipped with a mechanical radar, so the performance does not match that of the Pakistani Sea Eagle with the AESA radar. That said, the absence of MAD on Pakistani Sea Eagle seems awkward, considering both Italian and Turkish options went with it. Pakistan swapped the engines on its version of ATR with that of -600 version, so the performance should match.

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## syed_yusuf

Pn should aquire pia atr72 and convert them to sea eagle


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## Yasser76

syed_yusuf said:


> Pn should aquire pia atr72 and convert them to sea eagle



What will PIA fly then?


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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> What will PIA fly then?


How many ATR72s are currently in PIA? Help appreciated in advance.
A


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## Yasser76

araz said:


> How many ATR72s are currently in PIA? Help appreciated in advance.
> A



Around 10 active. Point is there are plenty of used ATR airframes (especially after Covid) that we can buy cheaply, why deprive PIA?

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Around 10 active. Point is there are plenty of used ATR airframes (especially after Covid) that we can buy cheaply, why deprive PIA?


Thank you. I went on the net and found PIA had leased or was looking to lease 5 platforms. However as you have rightly pointed out there is a glut in the second hand market and provided one has money the plarforms can be had for cheap.
A


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## syed_yusuf

araz said:


> How many ATR72s are currently in PIA? Help appreciated in advance.
> A


Around 5 out of that 4 operational and one stored


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## HRK



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## Thorough Pro

So you know what the upgrade package offers? and it does not offer anything more than what the Saab offers?
btw Saab is operated by PAF, Navy operates its own independent air arm.





Pinnacle said:


> I can’t find any reason whatsoever for PN going towards ATR-72 despite having SAAB-2000 infrastructure in-house.


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## Taha Samad

So based on above article do we know which if any missiles already in PN inventory can be launched by ATR MPAs?

From past live firing videos it seems Exocet launched from Sea King launch this way i.e missle is released and afterwards it turns on its rocket.

Do we have any video of C802 launch from JF-17?

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## Yasser76

Interesting, looks like we have 4 ATRs in total. 76, 77, 78, 79. 78 and 79 have been converted and 77 is being converted so I imagine we will also convert 76, giving us 4 MPAs. Not bad. Great news it confirms we have Pakistani data link. These birds will then be able to communicate with all our new ships and ours subs.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Taha Samad said:


> Do we have any video of C802 launch from JF-17?









HRK said:


> View attachment 647000


So originally 5 are planned?


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## DANGER-ZONE

HRK said:


> View attachment 647000



Four hardpoints can be added out of which front two can carry ASM but ours have only two and that too for the torpedos only.


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## Yasser76

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Four hardpoints can be added out of which front two can carry ASM but ours have only two and that too for the torpedos only.



Yes but the point is it says 2 more "can be added", not difficult for PN to do this themselves without sending the planes back to Germany. My guess is we will do it in Pakistan as it will involve Pakistani/Chinese missile systems



Pakistani Fighter said:


> So originally 5 are planned?



Not much difference between 4-5 aircraft, 6-8 is the ideal number as that permits two airborne round the clock, just like we have with the P-3Cs and Erieyes. My guess is they may just stick to 4 and then try and get 6-8 pf a LRMPA.

ATR will not go sub hunting all round the Indian Ocean, probably just Arabian Sea and near Pak Coast

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## HRK

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Four hardpoints can be added out of which front two can carry ASM but ours have only two and that too for the torpedos only.


plz read again the article attached is discussing about PN Sea Eagle ....



Pakistani Fighter said:


> So originally 5 are planned?


4 as far as I understand, one was already converted other three were intended to be converted depending upon availability of Budget .....



Taha Samad said:


> From past live firing videos it seems Exocet launched from Sea King launch this way i.e missle is released and afterwards it turns on its rocket.


I think Exocet Missiles would have more chances of Integration with Sea Eagle rather then C-802 probably because of the reason that both Exocet Missile and Sea Eagle are European origin systems


Yasser76 said:


> ATR will not go sub hunting all round the Indian Ocean, probably just Arabian Sea and near Pak Coast


In addition to 7 P-3C [link] additional 4 ATR Sea Eagle would give a decent number of 11 aircrafts for MPAs, while within next decade Jet power MPAs would also join so Pakistan Navy will have decent number of MPAs and Aerial subhunters platforms which not only cover Arabian Sea but a beyond Arabian Sea deep into Indian Ocean.

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## Yasser76

HRK said:


> plz read again the article attached is discussing about PN Sea Eagle ....
> 
> 
> 4 as far as I understand, one was already converted other three were intended to be converted depending upon availability of Budget .....
> 
> 
> I think Exocet Missiles would have more chances of Integration with Sea Eagle rather then C-802 probably because of the reason that both Exocet Missile and Sea Eagle are European origin systems
> 
> In addition to 7 P-3C [link] additional 4 ATR Sea Eagle would give a decent number of 11 aircrafts for MPAs, while within next decade Jet power MPAs would also join so Pakistan Navy will have decent number of MPAs and Aerial subhunters platforms which not only cover Arabian Sea but a beyond Arabian Sea deep into Indian Ocean.



Yes, it's a very good number for a country with Pakistan's coastline. ATR will very much be in Arabian Sea or coast, something with the legs of P-3C allows us to go hunting further away in Indian Ocean and off India's coast (fighter cover permitting). Ideally you would want a combination of 6 ATRs/6 P-3Cs or LRMPAs. That gives you 2 of each you can have in the air constantly during times of tension. 4 MPAs prowling around is a very tough force to sneak by.....

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> plz read again the article attached is discussing about PN Sea Eagle ....
> 
> 
> 4 as far as I understand, one was already converted other three were intended to be converted depending upon availability of Budget .....
> 
> 
> I think Exocet Missiles would have more chances of Integration with Sea Eagle rather then C-802 probably because of the reason that both Exocet Missile and Sea Eagle are European origin systems
> 
> In addition to 7 P-3C [link] additional 4 ATR Sea Eagle would give a decent number of 11 aircrafts for MPAs, while within next decade Jet power MPAs would also join so Pakistan Navy will have decent number of MPAs and Aerial subhunters platforms which not only cover Arabian Sea but a beyond Arabian Sea deep into Indian Ocean.





Yasser76 said:


> Yes, it's a very good number for a country with Pakistan's coastline. ATR will very much be in Arabian Sea or coast, something with the legs of P-3C allows us to go hunting further away in Indian Ocean and off India's coast (fighter cover permitting). Ideally you would want a combination of 6 ATRs/6 P-3Cs or LRMPAs. That gives you 2 of each you can have in the air constantly during times of tension. 4 MPAs prowling around is a very tough force to sneak by.....


PN Future LRMPAs will most probably replace P3Cs. India will most probably have 18 LRMPA P8Is in future.


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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> PN Future LRMPAs will most probably replace P3Cs. India will most probably have 18 LRMPA P8Is in future.



Not a case of keeping up the numbers with India, our MPAs will never fight their MPAs directly. India also has a coastline 8 times Pakistan's size and the Andaman Islands to defend and Chinese Navy to worry about. Beside India actually cut it's follow on P-8 order so will have 12 in total not 18.

11-12 MPAs are more then enough for Pak Navy. Essentially all it has to do is to keep our coast and nearby shipping lines clear, all our imports by sea will be coming from the West (not East) and everything from China by road.

This makes PN's job much easier then IN's.

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## Tipu7

Pakistani Fighter said:


> PN Future LRMPAs will most probably replace P3Cs. India will most probably have 18 LRMPA P8Is in future.


Planned numbers have been reduced to 12 P8I by Indian Navy.



HRK said:


> think Exocet Missiles would have more chances of Integration with Sea Eagle rather then C-802 probably because of the reason that both Exocet Missile and Sea Eagle are European origin systems


The choice of AShM for PN will depends on its ASW Helicopter purchase. 


HRK said:


> In addition to 7 P-3C [link] additional 4 ATR Sea Eagle would give a decent number of 11 aircrafts for MPAs, while within next decade Jet power MPAs would also join so Pakistan Navy will have decent number of MPAs and Aerial subhunters platforms which not only cover Arabian Sea but a beyond Arabian Sea deep into Indian Ocean.


I think we should see RAS-72 alongside LRMPA instead of P3C. Total 12 MPAs in PN by 2028 IA. And let's not forget, we have plans for unmanned platforms too.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> Planned numbers have been reduced to 12 P8I by Indian Navy.


Yes due to budget.


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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Yes due to budget.



Problem also comes up of basing, these are very valuable assets. Having 10-12 MPAs lined up next to each other is not great and also do do not fit into HAS and need to be near coastline


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## Apocalypse

Never knew Pakistans Orions can carry weapons





www.instagram.com/p/CCJISEqhaM0

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## Lord Of Gondor

Yasser76 said:


> Beside India actually cut it's follow on P-8 order so will have 12 in total not 18.


Total planned numbers is reduced from 22 to 18.
12 are on order.

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## Imran Khan

Apocalypse said:


> Never knew Pakistans Orions can carry weapons
> 
> www.instagram.com/p/CCJISEqhaM0


if they can not carry weapons then what is the purpose of them just go find submarine and say heeey submarine can you sunk please ?

they are loaded with toms of torpedos mines and missiles 

count torpedo holes








harpoon missiles

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## Apocalypse

Imran Khan said:


> if they can not carry weapons then what is the purpose of them just go find submarine and say heeey submarine can you sunk please ?
> 
> they are loaded with toms of torpedos mines and missiles
> 
> count torpedo holes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harpoon missiles


lots of holes to be filled eheh


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## Lord Of Gondor

Imran Khan said:


> count torpedo holes


They are for dropping Sonobuoys, torpedo drops from a bomb bay behind the nose landing gear.

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## Imran Khan

Apocalypse said:


> lots of holes to be filled eheh


they also have internal weapons bays sir .


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## Yasser76

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Total planned numbers is reduced from 22 to 18.
> 12 are on order.



No, it's 12 in total. 6 More we cancelled due to cuts and the way the Indian economy is you can be assured that will be the last. Line is closing soon too.

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## Apocalypse

Imran Khan said:


> they also have internal weapons bays sir .


No wonder they were used for COIN ops against terrorist s in waziristan


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Not a case of keeping up the numbers with India, our MPAs will never fight their MPAs directly. India also has a coastline 8 times Pakistan's size and the Andaman Islands to defend and Chinese Navy to worry about. Beside India actually cut it's follow on P-8 order so will have 12 in total not 18.
> 
> 11-12 MPAs are more then enough for Pak Navy. Essentially all it has to do is to keep our coast and nearby shipping lines clear, all our imports by sea will be coming from the West (not East) and everything from China by road.
> 
> This makes PN's job much easier then IN's.


Not really chinese imports will be through sea ..road will be 10x more expensive


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## Lord Of Gondor

Yasser76 said:


> No, it's 12 in total.


Let us see.


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## Akh1112

Apocalypse said:


> No wonder they were used for COIN ops against terrorist s in waziristan




That was probably less to do with their weapons and more to do with their sensors, being able to gather intel.

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## Apocalypse

Akh1112 said:


> That was probably less to do with their weapons and more to do with their sensors, being able to gather intel.


It was actually used because of its significantly superior loiter time than pafs hercules


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## Akh1112

Apocalypse said:


> It was actually used because of its significantly superior loiter time than pafs hercules


PAF hercules are strictly cargo/transporters. P3's are equipped with ISAR, ESM and probably some form of E/O Turrets too, all valuable tools for intel gathering.


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## Apocalypse

Akh1112 said:


> PAF hercules are strictly cargo/transporters. P3's are equipped with ISAR, ESM and probably some form of E/O Turrets too, all valuable tools for intel gathering.


Incorrect since ZarbeAzb paf has been using Hercules for COIN ops for ISR role courtesy of the FLIR star safire EO IR ball

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## JamD

Akh1112 said:


> PAF hercules are strictly cargo/transporters.








https://quwa.org/2016/01/02/pakistans-shift-to-coin-part-4-airborne-isr-and-airstrikes/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> View attachment 647346
> 
> https://quwa.org/2016/01/02/pakistans-shift-to-coin-part-4-airborne-isr-and-airstrikes/


It's true.

But seriously, would it have been _that _much more expensive to find a smaller plane off-the-shelf and configure it as a ISR/ISTAR aircraft? Why stress (and risk) the Hercs? They could have used C295, C235, Saab 2000, etc. Or was it one of those 'perception' machinations to plead for more C-130s?

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's true.
> 
> But seriously, would it have been _that _much more expensive to find a smaller plane off-the-shelf and configure it as a ISR/ISTAR aircraft? Why stress (and risk) the Hercs? They could have used C295, C235, Saab 2000, etc. Or was it one of those 'perception' machinations to plead for more C-130s?


must be their idea was as simple as the use of tools in hand to get the work done rather to wait for more appropriate but expensive tools .... buying an FLIR is less expensive then buying a complete aircraft

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's true.
> 
> But seriously, would it have been _that _much more expensive to find a smaller plane off-the-shelf and configure it as a ISR/ISTAR aircraft? Why stress (and risk) the Hercs? They could have used C295, C235, Saab 2000, etc. Or was it one of those 'perception' machinations to plead for more C-130s?


I can only speculate. Maybe the system has large power requirements. Maybe the C-130 being a truck you didn't really need to worry about messing up the flight characteristics by installing the pod. Also, time would have been of the essence. It was probably an adhoc solutions for an urgent problem.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I can only speculate. Maybe the system has large power requirements. Maybe the C-130 being a truck you didn't really need to worry about messing up the flight characteristics by installing the pod. Also, time would have been of the essence. It was probably an adhoc solutions for an urgent problem.


True, but pre-integrated solutions were already available. Not only that, but I think we even used CSF/FMF to fund partial solutions of that nature -- e.g., SAR/GMTI-equipped King Air 350s -- anyways. I feel like they could've gotten together and had Airbus DS, Leonardo, etc, to get an ISTAR platform via another COTS plane ready. Heck, they may have been able to get one from the US via CSF/FMF.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They could have used C295, C235, Saab 2000, etc


Oh we have some interesting plans ahead regarding the query you are raising...

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## Yasser76

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Let us see.



Yes let's see. along with buying USS Kitty Hawk, THAAD, F-35, 200 LCA. Thing about you lot is always plan for best case scenario, others always plan for worse case....


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## Akh1112

JamD said:


> View attachment 647346
> 
> https://quwa.org/2016/01/02/pakistans-shift-to-coin-part-4-airborne-isr-and-airstrikes/




thank you, was completely unaware of this

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/1329

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## Yasser76

air marshal said:


> https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/1329



Nice photo, but in all honesty even with new paint job and upgrade, Sea Kings are looking their age now....

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## Aamir Hussain

Interesting story on how the STAR SAFIRE suite was fitted in on the Hercs and how the operators of the equipment got trained and how they were used to take out TTP with pinpoint accuracy during night ops. That broke the back of TTP since now they were being attacked round the clock. 

Since then capability has been built to share live feed with ground control stations.

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## PanzerKiel

Aamir Hussain said:


> Interesting story on how the STAR SAFIRE suite was fitted in on the Hercs and how the operators of the equipment got trained and how they were used to take out TTP with pinpoint accuracy during night ops. That broke the back of TTP since now they were being attacked round the clock.
> 
> Since then capability has been built to share live feed with ground control stations.



C130 with Star Saffire.....TTP guys below...what happened a bit later is another story.

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## kursed

*China to supply 4 attack drones to Pak, prompts India to revive Predator-B plan*

Updated: Jul 06, 2020 07:50 IST

China is in the process of supplying four armed drones to Pakistan, ostensibly to protect the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor and the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s new base at Gwadar port, according to people familiar with the development said on Sunday.

Gwadar, in the highly restive southwestern province of Baluchistan, is described as the crown jewel of China’s $60 billion investment in Belt and Road Initiative projects in Pakistan.

The supply of two systems (each has two drones and a ground station) comes ahead of Beijing’s plan to jointly produce 48 GJ-2 drones, the military version of Wing Loong II, designed in China for use by Pakistan’s air force.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ator-b-plan/story-M5jUeCOLPnyyofzh03LSzI.html

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## air marshal



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> *China to supply 4 attack drones to Pak, prompts India to revive Predator-B plan*
> 
> Updated: Jul 06, 2020 07:50 IST
> 
> China is in the process of supplying four armed drones to Pakistan, ostensibly to protect the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor and the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s new base at Gwadar port, according to people familiar with the development said on Sunday.
> 
> Gwadar, in the highly restive southwestern province of Baluchistan, is described as the crown jewel of China’s $60 billion investment in Belt and Road Initiative projects in Pakistan.
> 
> The supply of two systems (each has two drones and a ground station) comes ahead of Beijing’s plan to jointly produce 48 GJ-2 drones, the military version of Wing Loong II, designed in China for use by Pakistan’s air force.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ator-b-plan/story-M5jUeCOLPnyyofzh03LSzI.html


I seriously hope it isn't Wing Loong II, CH-4 or anything in that size. Ideally, it should be either CH-5 or (if we want to try something different) Cloud Shadow.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Absolutely otherwise it won't make sense at all.
Going by what PAC is saying i.e they're making indigenous MALE UAV under AZM.

So IF they're already making MALE. It would make sense to acquire some HALE UAVs from China over the counter.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I seriously hope it isn't Wing Loong II, CH-4 or anything in that size. Ideally, it should be either CH-5 or (if we want to try something different) Cloud Shadow.





air marshal said:


>



Nice post dude. Corona ruined my plans of becoming a pilot for a good 3-4 years. I already had about 30 flight hours.

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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I seriously hope it isn't Wing Loong II, CH-4 or anything in that size. Ideally, it should be either CH-5 or (if we want to try something different) Cloud Shadow.


Hopefully! It has to be a marinized variant, I doubt they'd resort to Wing-Long II for that.

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## HRK



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## Incog_nito

I think for Medium lift capabilities PN needs to add more Sea Kings and make it like Mirage for PN.

Sea Kings are best for Sea-Born operations.

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## khanasifm

kursed said:


> *China to supply 4 attack drones to Pak, prompts India to revive Predator-B plan*
> 
> Updated: Jul 06, 2020 07:50 IST
> 
> China is in the process of supplying four armed drones to Pakistan, ostensibly to protect the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor and the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s new base at Gwadar port, according to people familiar with the development said on Sunday.
> 
> Gwadar, in the highly restive southwestern province of Baluchistan, is described as the crown jewel of China’s $60 billion investment in Belt and Road Initiative projects in Pakistan.
> 
> The supply of two systems (each has two drones and a ground station) comes ahead of Beijing’s plan to jointly produce 48 GJ-2 drones, the military version of Wing Loong II, designed in China for use by Pakistan’s air force.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ator-b-plan/story-M5jUeCOLPnyyofzh03LSzI.html


4 drones or 4 systems?? 

Typically it’s 4 systems with each system having 4/6 drones , ground Control shelter and support equipment , 4 drones does not make sense ??

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## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> I think for Medium lift capabilities PN needs to add more Sea Kings and make it like Mirage for PN.
> 
> Sea Kings are best for Sea-Born operations.


its outdated sir now there are modern plateforms better then sea king many folds such as NH-90 aw-149 aw159 MH-60 and ch-148


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## Incog_nito

Imran Khan said:


> its outdated sir now there are modern plateforms better then sea king many folds such as NH-90 aw-149 aw159 MH-60 and ch-148



I think Sea King is not bad to keep the fleet up and running till 2030. 

But acquiring new platforms is a very good option. Honestly, I don't like Z-9Cs and I also believe PN should focus on 

AW-149
AW-159
AW-101

and in good numbers






Sea Stallion is something that Pak Marines would love to go for.

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## nomi007

Incog_nito said:


> I think Sea King is not bad to keep the fleet up and running till 2030.
> 
> But acquiring new platforms is a very good option. Honestly, I don't like Z-9Cs and I also believe PN should focus on
> 
> AW-149
> AW-159
> AW-101
> 
> and in good numbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sea Stallion is something that Pak Marines would love to go for.


Papa se paise le do

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## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> I think Sea King is not bad to keep the fleet up and running till 2030.
> 
> But acquiring new platforms is a very good option. Honestly, I don't like Z-9Cs and I also believe PN should focus on
> 
> AW-149
> AW-159
> AW-101
> 
> and in good numbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sea Stallion is something that Pak Marines would love to go for.


sure they will change one day but i think it will be italian because of recent deals .

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## Metal 0-1

Incog_nito said:


> I think for Medium lift capabilities PN needs to add more Sea Kings and make it like Mirage for PN.
> 
> Sea Kings are best for Sea-Born operations.


Sea King is a relic. It belongs in museum..



Incog_nito said:


> I think Sea King is not bad to keep the fleet up and running till 2030.
> 
> But acquiring new platforms is a very good option. Honestly, I don't like Z-9Cs and I also believe PN should focus on
> 
> AW-149
> AW-159
> AW-101
> 
> and in good numbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sea Stallion is something that Pak Marines would love to go for.



Sea Stallion is expensive, hard to maintain.

In addition to; 
AW-149
AW-159
AW-101

NH-90
Z-20 are good helicopters for maritime operations.


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## nomi007

One thing which is very important
Pak Navy is replacing all American made assets with western types of equipment, which is really good.

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## GriffinsRule

P-3C Orion captured in Portugal yesterday
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pakistan-Navy/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/6092761

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## Safriz

GriffinsRule said:


> P-3C Orion captured in Portugal yesterday
> https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pakistan-Navy/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/6092761


Why is it in Portugal?


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## Michel Niesten

Safriz said:


> Why is it in Portugal?


Alverca in Portugal is home to the OGMA company, they do a lot of maintenance on C-130, and P-3. Also other aircraft. So this Orion is there for maintenance

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> P-3C Orion captured in Portugal yesterday
> https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pakistan-Navy/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/6092761


On the way to US or coming from US?


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## Aamir Hussain

Going from Pakistan to Portugal.

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## Viper27

Would PN be interested in acquiring more used P3Cs or is it considering other options like ATRs?


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## PAR 5

Viper27 said:


> Would PN be interested in acquiring more used P3Cs or is it considering other options like ATRs?



No More P3Cs

Maybe a few more ATRs

The maritime surveillance workhorse for PN in the future will be the Lineage 1000 Twin Jet LRMPA

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## Incog_nito

GriffinsRule said:


> P-3C Orion captured in Portugal yesterday
> https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pakistan-Navy/Lockheed-P-3C-Orion/6092761



It's future role should be with MSA.



PAR 5 said:


> No More P3Cs
> 
> Maybe a few more ATRs
> 
> The maritime surveillance workhorse for PN in the future will be the Lineage 1000 Twin Jet LRMPA



This is a good option for PN and it should be bought in good numbers like 10-12.

Though initial batch would be of 2-4 Aircraft.


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## TOPGUN

PAR 5 said:


> No More P3Cs
> 
> Maybe a few more ATRs
> 
> The maritime surveillance workhorse for PN in the future will be the Lineage 1000 Twin Jet LRMPA



Is this conformed news ? the Lineage 1000 ?


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## PAR 5

TOPGUN said:


> Is this conformed news ? the Lineage 1000 ?



Yes. It is confirmed

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## TOPGUN

PAR 5 said:


> Yes. It is confirmed



Mashallah ... thanks.

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## Scorpiooo

PAR 5 said:


> Yes. It is confirmed


How many they will get ? Any idea

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> How many they will get ? Any idea


My guess is that it'd be a long-term effort. So, at least as many planes to ultimately replace the P-3Cs and a few additional aircraft to sit as attrition reserves. Perhaps 12?

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## 3030

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My guess is that it'd be a long-term effort. So, at least as many planes to ultimately replace the P-3Cs and a few additional aircraft to sit as attrition reserves. Perhaps 12?


I think total of the type produced is around 30 so finding 12 out of the 30 will be an uphill task

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## mingle

PAR 5 said:


> Yes. It is confirmed


So same German system will be installed in Brazilian jet or turkish?? When replacement gonna start???



3030 said:


> I think total of the type produced is around 30 so finding 12 out of the 30 will be an uphill task


After COVID I believe it shouldn't be problem since many Airlines are struggling

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My guess is that it'd be a long-term effort. So, at least as many planes to ultimately replace the P-3Cs and a few additional aircraft to sit as attrition reserves. Perhaps 12?


That will good numbers, can serve for long time.



3030 said:


> I think total of the type produced is around 30 so finding 12 out of the 30 will be an uphill task


There platform production is active, so new be produced in future


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

3030 said:


> I think total of the type produced is around 30 so finding 12 out of the 30 will be an uphill task


Yep. But the Lineage 1000E itself is a close variant of the E190, so the PN can also draw on the latter.

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## PAR 5

India has eight P8I POSEIDON in service, four have been ordered and ten are planned to be purchased. That is a total of 22 Jet LRMPA based on the length of their coast line.

PN total numbers at this time are classified. Maybe in a few years such revelations will come forth including the very COOL name of the new PN LRMPA bird that I’ve come to know recently.

But unless PN officially does a Press Release of the subject aircraft induction at PNS MEHRAN, there is not much I can reveal other than what is already available at OSINT

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## Dreamer.

Are P-3C's not in good shape? Won't they continue to serve PN for years to come? I don't think most of them are even 15 years old yet.


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## TOPGUN

Dreamer. said:


> Are P-3C's not in good shape? Won't they continue to serve PN for years to come? I don't think most of them are even 15 years old yet.



This is true they are not very old at all and will solider on for several years more inshallah !


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## niaz

Indian mainland coastline is 6,100 Km. However, Andaman & Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal and Laskswadeep Islands in the Arabian Sea are also Indian territories, this means that IN needs to patrol about 7,500 Km coastline. Additionally, Bay of Bengal Islands are between 800 to 1,000 Km from the Indian East Coast and Lakshadweep Islands are between 200 to 400 Km distant from the Indian Southwest coast. Whereas Pakistan coastline is merely 1050 Km long.

The need for the number of Maritime Patrol Aircraft for the Indian Navy is therefore far more than what is needed by Pakistan. Hence comparison between the numbers of LMP aircraft owned by the Indian & Pakistan Navies is meaningless. 

The key question here should be “Do we have a sufficient number of maritime patrol aircraft to meet our security needs?” IMHO, we do.

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## ghazi52



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## Zephyrus

PAR 5 said:


> No More P3Cs
> 
> Maybe a few more ATRs
> 
> The maritime surveillance workhorse for PN in the future will be the Lineage 1000 Twin Jet LRMPA


Hi there as far as i know; i think it will be based on the SSJ100 code named 'marlin'

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## kursed

Isn’t SSJ-100, the Sukhoi regional jet?


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## truthseeker2010

niaz said:


> Indian mainland coastline is 6,100 Km. However, Andaman & Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal and Laskswadeep Islands in the Arabian Sea are also Indian territories, this means that IN needs to patrol about 7,500 Km coastline. Additionally, Bay of Bengal Islands are between 800 to 1,000 Km from the Indian East Coast and Lakshadweep Islands are between 200 to 400 Km distant from the Indian Southwest coast. Whereas Pakistan coastline is merely 1050 Km long.
> 
> The need for the number of Maritime Patrol Aircraft for the Indian Navy is therefore far more than what is needed by Pakistan. Hence comparison between the numbers of LMP aircraft owned by the Indian & Pakistan Navies is meaningless.
> 
> The key question here should be “Do we have a sufficient number of maritime patrol aircraft to meet our security needs?” IMHO, we do.



Yes in terms of numbers, a better comparison would be with taiwan (1500 km coastline) or S.korea (2400 km) they both have 15 mpa, however they employ a good number of UAV's as well.

So PN should go for more UAVs and upgrade p3's if possible otherwise go for alternate, since p3 are fairly old already.


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## Zephyrus

kursed said:


> Isn’t SSJ-100, the Sukhoi regional jet?


it is


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## 3030

All the P-3s are more than 20 Yrs old but that doesn't matter. All our C-130s are more than 50 Yrs old but are up and running. PN needs to upgrade P-3 fleet on lines as PAF is keeping the C-130 fleet updated.


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## Sohail Qamar Photography

air marshal said:


>


Nice work mate.


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## Tipu7

PAR 5 said:


> India has eight P8I POSEIDON in service, four have been ordered and ten are planned to be purchased. That is a total of 22 Jet LRMPA


They have reduced the target number to 18 aircrafts.

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## MIRauf

Youngest P-3C in PN service was about 53 years old some 10+ years ago. All these have been Serviced for PN before delivery and are very capable platforms, except P8I has some new gadgets and is based on Jet Engine platform.

Correction: Was 25 odd years old.

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## Avid Aviator

MIRauf said:


> Youngest P-3C in PN service was about 53 years old some 10+ years ago. All these have been Serviced for PN before delivery and are very capable platforms, except P8I has some new gadgets and is based on Jet Engine platform.
> 
> Correction: Was 25 odd years old.


31 Years Old (To Be precise) first P3 Built for Pakistan was in 1989.


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## _NOBODY_

PAR 5 said:


> Yes. It is confirmed


Lineage 1000 or Lineage 1000E?

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Harbin-Z-9C-Haitun/1825

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Harbin-Z-9C-Haitun/931

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## Lord Of Gondor

Yasser76 said:


> No, it's 12 in total. 6 More we cancelled due to cuts and the way the Indian economy is you can be assured that will be the last. Line is closing soon too.


As I said, 18 is fleet size.
India moves to buy 6 more Poseidons from US for $1.8bn
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/in...rom-us-for-1-8bn/amp_articleshow/77160923.cms


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## nomi007

I think PN have to go for *Kamov Ka-27/31* good for our small ships.


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## Yasser76

nomi007 said:


> I think PN have to go for *Kamov Ka-27/31* good for our small ships.



This helicopter is useless in comparison with latest Western types

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## nomi007

Yasser76 said:


> This helicopter is useless in comparison with latest Western types


If you have no idea or knowledge then 1st search.


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## Readerdefence

nomi007 said:


> If you have no idea or knowledge then 1st search.


Hi if possible to post comparison between some on the forum 
Thank you


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO ... the PN is likely looking for 12 new ASW helicopters to support the Type 054A/P, MILGEMs and the OPV 1900s. Had there not been issues with the T129, I think the PN would've gone ahead with the AW159 as doing so would've resulted in engine commonality with the PAA. Yes, it would've been a pricey purchase ($500-600 m), but the PN may have managed it through batch purchases and installments.

However, since it's looking the ATAK is not a factor, then the PN might (as it had with the LRMPA) look at a more daring solution. In other words, they might pick a commercially available platform (e.g., AW139), and contract a third-party to configure it into an ASW-capable solution.

Ideally, we'd select the T625 and work it into an ASW platform, and then induct a huge slew of them for utility, SAR, troop transport, etc. Basically, 120-180 helicopters across the PN, PA and PAF as well as Gov't of Pak, Rangers, FC, etc. We would then build the backbone of our attack helicopter fleet with the T629, i.e., same engine, transmission and core parts as T625.

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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the PN is likely looking for 12 new ASW helicopters to support the Type 054A/P, MILGEMs and the OPV 1900s. Had there not been issues with the T129, I think the PN would've gone ahead with the AW159 as doing so would've resulted in engine commonality with the PAA. Yes, it would've been a pricey purchase ($500-600 m), but the PN may have managed it through batch purchases and installments.
> 
> However, since it's looking the ATAK is not a factor, then the PN might (as it had with the LRMPA) look at a more daring solution. In other words, they might pick a commercially available platform (e.g., AW139), and contract a third-party to configure it into an ASW-capable solution.


What are the odds they bring back the Lynx and get an upgrade program going?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> What are the odds they bring back the Lynx and get an upgrade program going?


The old Lynx? Unlikely IMO. tbh if the AW159 is as good as the hype, I think the PN is still inclined to getting it if the UK and/or Italy can run a credit line. Basically, 12 AW159s and 6 AW101s.

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## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the PN is likely looking for 12 new ASW helicopters to support the Type 054A/P, MILGEMs and the OPV 1900s. Had there not been issues with the T129, I think the PN would've gone ahead with the AW159 as doing so would've resulted in engine commonality with the PAA. Yes, it would've been a pricey purchase ($500-600 m), but the PN may have managed it through batch purchases and installments.
> 
> However, since it's looking the ATAK is not a factor, then the PN might (as it had with the LRMPA) look at a more daring solution. In other words, they might pick a commercially available platform (e.g., AW139), and contract a third-party to configure it into an ASW-capable solution.
> 
> Ideally, we'd select the T625 and work it into an ASW platform, and then induct a huge slew of them for utility, SAR, troop transport, etc. Basically, 120-180 helicopters across the PN, PA and PAF as well as Gov't of Pak, Rangers, FC, etc. We would then build the backbone of our attack helicopter fleet with the T629, i.e., same engine, transmission and core parts as T625.



You cannot convert a civilian/ transport AW139 into an ASW Mission Helicopter (from any third party) WITHOUT having written approval and permission from Leonardo. During any sale, Leanardo takes a written guarantee from the Buyer that the purchased helicopters will be used only for transport and civilian applications. If anyone does convert it into a special mission platform than the required certification is not approved by Leonardo or its approved MRO's because of breach of end use.

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## nomi007

Readerdefence said:


> Hi if possible to post comparison between some on the forum
> Thank you


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-31




https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka31/

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## Armchair

How far away is the T-629 and T-625? I think Pak military is in a bit of a hurry. AW-139 is a good idea still,don't think Leonardo would make a hassle about fitting out. They are desperate to make a sale.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the PN is likely looking for 12 new ASW helicopters to support the Type 054A/P, MILGEMs and the OPV 1900s. Had there not been issues with the T129, I think the PN would've gone ahead with the AW159 as doing so would've resulted in engine commonality with the PAA. Yes, it would've been a pricey purchase ($500-600 m), but the PN may have managed it through batch purchases and installments.
> 
> However, since it's looking the ATAK is not a factor, then the PN might (as it had with the LRMPA) look at a more daring solution. In other words, they might pick a commercially available platform (e.g., AW139), and contract a third-party to configure it into an ASW-capable solution.
> 
> Ideally, we'd select the T625 and work it into an ASW platform, and then induct a huge slew of them for utility, SAR, troop transport, etc. Basically, 120-180 helicopters across the PN, PA and PAF as well as Gov't of Pak, Rangers, FC, etc. We would then build the backbone of our attack helicopter fleet with the T629, i.e., same engine, transmission and core parts as T625.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> How far away is the T-629 and T-625? I think Pak military is in a bit of a hurry. AW-139 is a good idea still,don't think Leonardo would make a hassle about fitting out. They are desperate to make a sale.


Re: AW139 I think Leonardo would have to do the conversion if the PN asks for it.

Re: T629 and T625. I'd rather we wait for those instead of rushing into costly off-the-shelf purchases. We know the Turks are offering an element of ToT and offsets, so there's an economic gain (esp. if we channel the offset juice to the right private sector actors). Is the 'wait' risky? Yes, but even if we order new helicopters today, we will not get them in a day. So, the 'urgency' argument doesn't stand, unless we're talking 2nd-hand UH-60s, which we know the PN had been interested in... Heck, I wouldn't mind any spare ex-PLAN Z-9ECs either.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Re: AW139 I think Leonardo would have to do the conversion if the PN asks for it.
> 
> Re: T629 and T625. I'd rather we wait for those instead of rushing into costly off-the-shelf purchases. We know the Turks are offering an element of ToT and offsets, so there's an economic gain (esp. if we channel the offset juice to the right private sector actors). Is the 'wait' risky? Yes, but even if we order new helicopters today, we will not get them in a day. So, the 'urgency' argument doesn't stand, unless we're talking 2nd-hand UH-60s, which we know the PN had been interested in... Heck, I wouldn't mind any spare ex-PLAN Z-9ECs either.



Chinese gear doesn't last very well. So buying second hand chinese helicopters is a least favorable move. Though, PN is in a situation where it hasn't figured out what its prinicipal ship-borne helicopter should be. This is actually a bad state of affairs and will be costly in a war. The closest thing is the Z-9s but they are unsatisfactory. Whatever decision is made, needs to be made reasonably fast (unlikely to meet a Turkish T-625 timeline).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Chinese gear doesn't last very well. So buying second hand chinese helicopters is a least favorable move. Though, PN is in a situation where it hasn't figured out what its prinicipal ship-borne helicopter should be. This is actually a bad state of affairs and will be costly in a war. The closest thing is the Z-9s but they are unsatisfactory. Whatever decision is made, needs to be made reasonably fast (unlikely to meet a Turkish T-625 timeline).


If it's a temporary/stop-gap need, scrounging for surplus Z-9ECs may not be a bad idea. I'd rather go that route (as we can use the existing support overhead for those helicopters) if it means buying just enough time for a navalized T-625 to come online. But my instinct tells me the PN could simply order AW159s in small batches.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If it's a temporary/stop-gap need, scrounging for surplus Z-9ECs may not be a bad idea. I'd rather go that route (as we can use the existing support overhead for those helicopters) if it means buying just enough time for a navalized T-625 to come online. But my instinct tells me the PN could simply order AW159s in small batches.



Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years


It makes me wonder...what if the PN's still gunning for ex-US S-70s?

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Yasser76 said:


> Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years



Even the sea Although Turkey is much higher budget, state made ready in production and land forces, and found much in the internal security forces BlackHawk / Seahawk use, and so spare parts problem and minimize the cost of education. Why is Pakistan looking so different alternative helo because the power of the Z-9 is not enough?


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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It makes me wonder...what if the PN's still gunning for ex-US S-70s?



Yes, it would make sense, Turkey has much experiance in the helicopter and I imagine that all it's sub systems we are buying have been integrated into it.



RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Even the sea Although Turkey is much higher budget, state made ready in production and land forces, and found much in the internal security forces BlackHawk / Seahawk use, and so spare parts problem and minimize the cost of education. Why is Pakistan looking so different alternative helo because the power of the Z-9 is not enough?



Agree, Turkey can provide much training and logistics help on this chopper and spares. Its systems we are buying are integrated into it. The fact India has purchased it may also mean US would be more inclined to offer it to us too as balance in region not effected I think simple matter is cost.

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## nomi007

*Cockpit of an Atlantic*

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2905

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2915

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## Incog_nito

PN should get some surplus Sea Kings for MSA.

Moreover, coast guards which I guess is under Pak Army's control should look into these helicopters as there role is increasing day by day from East to West.


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## Yasser76

Incog_nito said:


> PN should get some surplus Sea Kings for MSA.
> 
> Moreover, coast guards which I guess is under Pak Army's control should look into these helicopters as there role is increasing day by day from East to West.



Tough issue, everyone is replacing these now, I could be wrong but could be soon only India and Pak are left as operators of these helicopter. Maybe Egypt too. Spares will soon become an issue, so worth buying older airframes for spares (like we did from UK recently) but world and technology has moved on. Zarb surface to surface missile and our coastal radar can now do the job that required a Sea King with Exocet. For sub hunting it is too short ranged when based on coast. Most useful job now is probably as SSGN transport for Creek areas.


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## Incog_nito

Then PN should evaluate EH-101s / NH-90 to replace Sea Kings and get them in good numbers to support PN & MSA and maybe some for Coast Guards.


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## Incog_nito

Or Sea Kings should be upgraded and transfer to Coast Guards for SAR operations.

But honestly, I think AW-101 / NH-90 are the ones that can fill the gap in PN roles along with the AW-139s and AW109.

Even, I think PN doesn't love the Z-9C which can be sold to other operators.

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## Yasser76

Incog_nito said:


> Or Sea Kings should be upgraded and transfer to Coast Guards for SAR operations.
> 
> But honestly, I think AW-101 / NH-90 are the ones that can fill the gap in PN roles along with the AW-139s and AW109.
> 
> Even, I think PN doesn't love the Z-9C which can be sold to other operators.



Of course you are right but money is the issue

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## Reichmarshal

Incog_nito said:


> Moreover, coast guards which I guess is under Pak Army's control should look into these helicopters as there role is increasing day by day from East to West.



The coast guard is under naval control.

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## Aamir Hussain

As far as I know CG is under Army control. Serving army officers are seconded to CG for a set tenure. And as far as i remember, the D.G. is a serving brigadier.

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## niaz

Aamir Hussain said:


> As far as I know CG is under Army control. Serving army officers are seconded to CG for a set tenure. And as far as i remember, the D.G. is a serving brigadier.


 
Sir,
Just like the Pakistan Rangers, Coast Guards report to the Ministry of Interior. Serving officers of the Army & other Services may be 'Seconded' to the Coast Guards, but it remains a paramilitary organization and under the Secretary of the Interior Ministry.

https://www.interior.gov.pk/index.php/pakistan-coast-guards

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## Michel Niesten

The NH90 is very expensive to operatie. Belgium is replacing 4 NH90’s already, because of operating cost and lack of support from industry. I think Pakistan should consider cheaper alternatives. Like the Z-9 or Chinese Blackhawk copy.

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## Incog_nito

Michel Niesten said:


> The NH90 is very expensive to operatie. Belgium is replacing 4 NH90’s already, because of operating cost and lack of support from industry. I think Pakistan should consider cheaper alternatives. Like the Z-9 or Chinese Blackhawk copy.


AW-101 is the best option.

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## Incog_nito

PN should plan for this type of fleet and in good numbers with all the high-tech equipment for Navy, MSA, & even for Coast Guard.

AW-101
AW-139
AW109


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## GriffinsRule

Michel Niesten said:


> The NH90 is very expensive to operatie. Belgium is replacing 4 NH90’s already, because of operating cost and lack of support from industry. I think Pakistan should consider cheaper alternatives. Like the Z-9 or Chinese Blackhawk copy.


Their experience should give people a good idea of the operating costs of these helos, great as they might be. For Belgium, per hour flight cost is more than that of an F-16. How much of it is due to their small fleet and how their contract was put together (spare support/maintenance) I am not sure but its still an expensive aircraft. What I found more interesting is that they are replacing their 4 NH-90s and 10 A109s with a much smaller helicopter, H145, so part of that is also what their doctrine and geography dictates.
For Pakistan, we will have our own depot level setups at the minimum and costs will be spread across a much larger fleet.

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## Bossman

Reichmarshal said:


> The coast guard is under naval control.


I think he means MSA.


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## Bossman

Incog_nito said:


> PN should plan for this type of fleet and in good numbers with all the high-tech equipment for Navy, MSA, & even for Coast Guard.
> 
> AW-101
> AW-139
> AW109


Coast guard in Pakistan is totally land based it has no maritime or aviation elements.

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## ghazi52

*SA-316B Alouette III *

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## ghazi52

*Westland WS-61 Sea King Mk45*

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## ghazi52



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## airomerix

PN P-3C positioned on the test engine platform at Alverca, Portugal.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy Westland WS-61 Sea King helicopter firing Exocet anti-ship missile during live missile firings in North Arabian Sea.

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## Windjammer

A PN aircraft flying over some National assets.

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## ghazi52



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## ali_raza

Windjammer said:


> A PN aircraft flying over some National assets.
> 
> 
> View attachment 665235
> View attachment 665235


kekra


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## ghazi52



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## Last starfighter

Super Falcon said:


> All Thanx to china but now we need major changes in top leader ships of armed forces they have failled misreably what we need changes and good leaderships in all aspects of govt other wise we dont have any chance of survival and armed forces if they are sincere with country catch theses bastered Nation went through alot now Nation cannot take more now we need to stand al together sincerely each and every one if we need to survive as a country our intelligence has to wake up and get to work and do not see any thing just pakistan we see just what good for pakistan and forget i got orders from that person to do this we will get bashing like this what is good for pakistan should be given preferance on everything and bring anything to crush these terrorists why terrorists get more moral booost becoz all their operations always been on target if we need to crush them crush their moral catch them alive nd take intel out of them and hang them in front of whole pakistan so others who want to do same will think of consicuences i know they dont fear death but they fear Nation as a nation we need to stand they fear beating of armed forces which they are not getting


So many years of Navajo and gardari. More of the same plZ

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## kursed

ali_raza said:


> kekra


Gharo. The windmills are in the background. =)


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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> A PN aircraft flying over some National assets.
> 
> 
> View attachment 665235
> View attachment 665235


flying over windmills?


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## nomi007

Both PAF & PAA are using Italian AW-139. I hope the Navy will also induct AW-149 for its future frigates & Corvettes.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

nomi007 said:


> Both PAF & PAA are using Italian AW-139. I hope the Navy will also induct AW-149 for its future frigates & Corvettes.


AW149/AW189K is quite different. Yes it might share the same general design of the AW139, but uses different engines (T700 or Aneto vs. AW139's PT6). Plus, there's been no real marinization work on the AW149/189K -- e.g., foldable tail, AShW and ASW, sensor integration, CMS integration, etc. 

The AW159 is $45-50 m per unit (inclusive of maintenance/support) and the NH-90 and AW101 are each around $125-150 m each.. However, the latter two can double as troop transports and AShM carriers.

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## ali_raza

nomi007 said:


> flying over windmills?


kekra isn’t far off

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## Avid Aviator



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## Metal 0-1

Avid Aviator said:


>


Last lines are something a villain(but in a good way) would say.


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## Vapour

Avid Aviator said:


>



Now, that looks exciting!


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## hassan1



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## kursed

ali_raza said:


> kekra isn’t far off


Kekra is nowhere near Gharo. FHS.


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## Avid Aviator



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## Reichmarshal

I think not sinking or at the very least making the sub surface was a grave mistake on our part. As PN had the Indian sub by the balls when they forced it to snorkel depth. 
As had the roles been reversed and it would have been a PN sub the Indian would have blown it out of the water.

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## air marshal



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## Yasser76

air marshal said:


>



4th one?


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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## hassan1



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## FuturePAF

Some high res photos of the Z-20F ASW helicopter. How does it compare to the Seahawks?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323258747809107968


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## blinder

How many Alouettes are still on strength?

I have seen photos of the following 10:
31 SE3160/SA316
32 SE3160/SA316
33 SE3160/SA316
34 SE3160/SA316
35 SA319B
36 SA319B
40 SA319B
41 SA319B
42 SA319B
43 SA319B

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## Apocalypse

blinder said:


> How many Alouettes are still on strength?
> 
> I have seen photos of the following 10:
> 31 SE3160/SA316
> 32 SE3160/SA316
> 33 SE3160/SA316
> 34 SE3160/SA316
> 35 SA319B
> 36 SA319B
> 40 SA319B
> 41 SA319B
> 42 SA319B
> 43 SA319B



36 is SA316B. There are a couple more, I suggest you keep an eye on this guy and his social media handle, who has uploaded most of the Naval Air Arm Fleet - https://www.jetphotos.com/photographer/179588

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## blinder

Apocalypse said:


> 36 is SA316B. There are a couple more, I suggest you keep an eye on this guy and his social media handle, who has uploaded most of the Naval Air Arm Fleet - https://www.jetphotos.com/photographer/179588


Yes those great shots inspired me to make this overview 
36 has an Astazou engine, which should make it an SA319B. 
It visited the United Kingdom in 2005 and was confirmed as SA319B construction number 2388.

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## Ahmet Pasha

*Dude* I am just elated to see so much activity happening over at PN these days. 
Warna PN acquisition department personnel were paid for nothing.

40-50 vessel fleet is what I advocated for, along with expansion of PMarines. PN did good by picking Embraer E series sister VIP jet for LRMPA. I love the E series platform. It has great potential both in civil and mil applications. Next we should think about our own EAW&C based on same Lineage/E jet platform and a tri service joint helicopter development programs that develops a medium-heavy lift helicopter and a heavy attack helicopter(Apache class). Prefderrably with TAI partnership/JV.

It would be even better if we can spare some billions or hundreds of millions(installments) to invest in Embraer. It is like a jilted bride by Boeing. PAC could step up and offer to give her "sahara". But I digress.

Maybe when this is done. We can think about making PN into an even bigger, highly armed expedtionary force with better amphibious armour, landing crafts, bigger amphibious crafts, aviation assets/air cover(even a few K8s operating in area without SAMs/Shorads could be good), aiming to offset the damage Indian aircraft carriers/destroyers could inflict. Marines I think should also have their own special force for recon/intel.

And down the road carrier group based on mini carriers 3-4. Or 1-2 Stobar aircraft carriers.


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## air marshal



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## aziqbal

those Sea Kings have done us well 

really good helicopters and we got our first when ? mid 1970s? 

nearly 50 years


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## air marshal



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## Incog_nito

Does PN need UAVs like *CR-500 Golden Eagle *for piracy operations and to counter small boats at sea?


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy celebrated 62nd Gwadar Day with traditional fervor. This Day is celebrated every year to mark the merger of Gwadar with Pakistan.

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## Danish saleem

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Navy celebrated 62nd Gwadar Day with traditional fervor. This Day is celebrated every year to mark the merger of Gwadar with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 694603


is that the way we need to celebrate merger of gwader with Pakistan by dropping SSGs??
what happens to our intellect!

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## khail007

Danish saleem said:


> what happens to our intellect!



They are sleeping/dysfunctional.

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## aziqbal

it is very hard to establish what will replace the Sea King?

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## mudas777

Incog_nito said:


> Does PN need UAVs like *CR-500 Golden Eagle *for piracy operations and to counter small boats at sea?
> 
> View attachment 691957




Versatile frame love to have this machine in Pakistan colours especially in PA mountainous areas. Imagine Eagle taking out Indian positions/fox holes from distance or supporting PN marines. PAC should consider making it in Pakistan and can be prelude to the helicopter production locally.

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## air marshal



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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

aziqbal said:


> it is very hard to establish what will replace the Sea King?


direct replacements can include the AW101, NH90, S-92, H225M all of which will require quite an amount of capital. Besides, the sea kings recently underwent refurbishment so they're gonna stay a while.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Incog_nito

Is PN going to place some orders for Augusta Westlands - similar to the ones BN ordered?


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## ghazi52

Once a gunner, always a gunner! 

Navy alouette 3 armed with an MG-3 machine gun !

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## khanasifm

Paf moved old helo to training role till they get replaced in future
Pn may also do the same and is on process especially with surface fleet expansion

make sense to go with same platform as paf and pa customized for navy

for now z-9 and z-18F and aw101 seams to be available but wonder if aw-139 based naval Version is an options

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## air marshal



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## Incog_nito

air marshal said:


>



They served well to PN and now they should be upgraded and moved to PMSA & Coast Guards.

Pakistan Navy, should buy a fleet of 15-20 AW-101s along with other AW-series to replace old helicopters.


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## Cool_Soldier

PN is already using Z9 EC.
If they are happy with it, they might equip new coming ships with same platform.

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367123983666196480

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## ghazi52

Alouette III

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## khanasifm

Cool_Soldier said:


> PN is already using Z9 EC.
> If they are happy with it, they might equip new coming ships with same platform.



It seems like it as the total fleet is 6-8 but it also depends on the class of heli needed, z9 is still 2 Ton class with ~400km range and medium class of 8-12 ton with 800-1000 km range so to extend reach especially for anti sub hunting you may want more station time 4-6 hours vs z9 2.5 hours plus can add anti ship rule too to by arming medium class with anti ship missiles such as Exocet on sea king or Chinese medium heli z-18/z20 with Chinese anti ship missiles c-701 or c-xxx series

time will tell when 054 shows up which can carry russian medium class, not seen z18/z20 operational on frigates yet in plaan

Z20 is first Chinese heli with fly by wire controls of I am not mistaken 









Chinese navy tests new Z-20 helicopter for use on its warships


Photos carried by news website show modified model of the aircraft on what is believed to be the Nanchang guided-missile destroyer.




www.scmp.com

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Alouette III
> 
> View attachment 722798


Like Fokker fleet it possible paf a a paa retirement of type may Lead to pn using them for spares and extending type time in pn

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy Fokker F-27 Landing At Ypenburg, Circa 1984.

© Peiter Bes

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## ghazi52

Zulu 9

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2169658293171384

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## ghazi52

Zulu 9

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Zulu 9
> 
> 
> View attachment 725128



Any new addition to the fleet past original 6 of which few were sar config and rest asw


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=838640530326757

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 728575



Per an article there are two additional pylons on the back for torpedos while two at the front can also fire anti ship 🚢 missiles


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## ghazi52

*So we met again.*

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## Tipu7

khanasifm said:


> Like Fokker fleet it possible paf a a paa retirement of type may Lead to pn using them for spares and extending type time in pn


Gone are the days when PN was PAF junk yard... 
PN will acquire its own fleet, state of art and dedicated for its own requirements.

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## ARMalik

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 728575



Still not sure why large UAVs cannot do this task, example, something along the lines of Maritime Heron??


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Metal 0-1

Embarer Lineage is camera shy I guess

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## Yasser76

Metal 0-1 said:


> Embarer Lineage is camera shy I guess



May not even be in Pakistan anymore


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## Metal 0-1

Yasser76 said:


> May not even be in Pakistan anymore


Yesterday it popped up on Flight Radar doing some merry go rounds over Pindi

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## Akh1112

Metal 0-1 said:


> Embarer Lineage is camera shy I guess


its being used for VIP transport for the moment.


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## ghazi52



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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 734811


What a waste of money and time these hand-me-downs Lynxes were.

Picture request. Is there a better or clearer image of the PN Z-9C #23 besides this shot that anyone can share?

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## Ahmet Pasha

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 734811


Why not just sell them to an African/Arab nation??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> What a waste of money and time these hand-me-downs Lynxes were.


The irony with the Lynxes is that Leonardo is offering the PN the AW159.

IMHO, the PN's still holding out for the Sea Hawk-series in some form (e.g., used, TAI T-70s, or new MH-60Rs).

Even if we account for the risk of sanctions, supporting the S-70/MH-60-series is relatively tenable thanks to the abundance of worldwide operators and its widely available inputs (e.g., GE T700-series engines).

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The irony with the Lynxes is that Leonardo is offering the PN the AW159.
> 
> IMHO, the PN's still holding out for the Sea Hawk-series in some form (e.g., used, TAI T-70s, or new MH-60Rs).
> 
> Even if we account for the risk of sanctions, supporting the S-70/MH-60-series is relatively tenable thanks to the abundance of worldwide operators and its widely available inputs (e.g., GE T700-series engines).


Why not buy the Chinese one?? This is one area I think we should buy from Iron Brother. What's the hold up?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why not buy the Chinese one?? This is one area I think we should buy from Iron Brother. What's the hold up?


hmm...if you're referring to the Z-20-based one, I don't think that's available for export yet. Otherwise, more Z-9ECs is certainly a possibility (if not likely).


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## Imran Khan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why not just sell them to an African/Arab nation??


they were sold few years ago

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> hmm...if you're referring to the Z-20-based one, I don't think that's available for export yet. Otherwise, more Z-9ECs is certainly a possibility (if not likely).


I was reading on Quora that Mi171 is more of a robust workhorse when it comes to sheer cargo lifting capabilities than the Blackhawk platform 

How would you compare and contrast the two?


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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> hmm...if you're referring to the Z-20-based one, I don't think that's available for export yet. Otherwise, more Z-9ECs is certainly a possibility (if not likely).


PN need better helis then these Z9s


Ahmet Pasha said:


> I was reading on Quora that Mi171 is more of a robust workhorse when it comes to sheer cargo lifting capabilities than the Blackhawk platform
> 
> How would you compare and contrast the two?


MI 17 proves much better during afghan war and afterwards then Americans Blackhawk they performed very well in heat and dusty environment and were able to complete all jobs


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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> they were sold few years ago


If you mean the Lynx, they are mothballed. After a decade in storage, one of them is in the PN museum now. They are in no shape to be sold to anyone unless a kabariya for scrap metal

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## Ahmet Pasha

GriffinsRule said:


> If you mean the Lynx, they are mothballed. After a decade in storage, one of them is in the PN museum now. They are in no shape to be sold to anyone unless a kabariya for scrap metal
> View attachment 735157


I'd take that too. I guess I'm a cheapskate tho.


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## Imran Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> If you mean the Lynx, they are mothballed. After a decade in storage, one of them is in the PN museum now. They are in no shape to be sold to anyone unless a kabariya for scrap metal
> View attachment 735157


sir i see tender few years ago for sale of lynx by pn .as it where is was mentioned


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## Scorpiooo

Imran Khan said:


> sir i see tender few years ago for sale of lynx by pn .as it where is was mentioned


How many they had ?


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## Imran Khan

Scorpiooo said:


> How many they had ?

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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 735307


Yeah they tried to sell but no one would buy them "as is" from Pakistan when they would require extensive rework. Better for anyone interested to get them directly from the Brits.

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## Imran Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Yeah they tried to sell but no one would buy them "as is" from Pakistan when they would require extensive rework. Better for anyone interested to get them directly from the Brits.


i think logistics will be issue otherwise there are many companies sale and secure parts of choppers lynx in not famous too its hard to sale


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Z-9

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## Scorpiooo

Hope PN can get something better then this in future 


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 738000
> 
> 
> 
> Z-9


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy's RAS-72 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA)

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## khanasifm

Z9s

If it meets the requirement than its perfectly fine additional units would be Gr8 addition but all newer ships ie 054 Ada and Danish ships can take on medium weight heli 10-12 tons unlike older type so options are better


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

*RAS-72 Sea Eagle of Pakistan Naval Air Arm is maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) based on the ATR-72.*











*The PN got its RAS-72s MPA configured for ASW. Its aircraft are equipped with two hardpoints that can support lightweight ASW torpedoes.




*

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> *RAS-72 Sea Eagle of Pakistan Naval Air Arm is maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) based on the ATR-72.*
> 
> View attachment 750781
> 
> 
> View attachment 750782
> 
> 
> *The PN got its RAS-72s MPA configured for ASW. Its aircraft are equipped with two hardpoints that can support lightweight ASW torpedoes.
> 
> View attachment 750783
> *



An article I shared and posted here said it has two hp on the front and two in the rear , front one can take light torpedoes plus missiles but have not seen any pic yet


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Same suite on sea sultan per pn chief but perhaps it will face asw, asuw and air role as well


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 751242


I think the operative word is that they can be installed upon request. Clearly that does not seem to be the case in PN ones.

Edit: PN also probably could not find the right missile to integrate on the platform. The article specifically mentions Penguin, which is a relatively small ASM, mostly carried by helicopters.

In comparison, the Exocet is twice as large in dimensions and weight. Our older Atlantics used to carry them in the bomb bay vs pylons, which is not an option for the ATR.

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## ghazi52

.

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## ghazi52



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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 753948




How genuine is this? Looks like someone just put the ATR onto it. No missiles on wing?


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## ghazi52



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## iLION12345_1

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 753948





Yasser76 said:


> How genuine is this? Looks like someone just put the ATR onto it. No missiles on wing?


Not fully accurate, just copied from ATR-72 MPA.

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## ghazi52



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## naahmad28

Yasser76 said:


> How genuine is this? Looks like someone just put the ATR onto it. No missiles on wing?


just replaced the plane from ATR. not the actual description.


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## ghazi52



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## Michel Niesten

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 754371


And they are wrong. The modification works can’t be done in Mönchengladbach.

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## Rafi

Michel Niesten said:


> And they are wrong. The modification works can’t be done in Mönchengladbach.



Could be at a different facility with the requist runway


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rafi said:


> Could be at a different facility with the requist runway


tbh I can't see how they'll get the optimal design configuration without Embraer's input.


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## Scorpiooo

Can E190 with alternation of additional fuel tanks works similarly like lineage 1000 for sea sultan project


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> Can E190 with alternation of additional fuel tanks works similarly like lineage 1000 for sea sultan project


I imagine it's doable. In fact, if you're going to modify an E190 for the LRMPA role, adding fuel tanks in some of the cargo area shouldn't be as complex as adding external hardpoints, a torpedo bay, etc.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I can't see how they'll get the optimal design configuration without Embraer's input.



Difficult but not impossible, my personal opinion is there will be some assistance from Embraer, if the PN succeeds they can market this for other countries, and make the only viable competition for the P8.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I imagine it's doable. In fact, if you're going to modify an E190 for the LRMPA role, adding fuel tanks in some of the cargo area shouldn't be as complex as adding external hardpoints, a torpedo bay, etc.


Seems like that, additional to lineage 1000 is will open option of 500 plus (E190) used jets can be purchased and modify for PN (sea sultan) or even PAF in future

If i am not wrong E190 will cheaper then Lineage 1000

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> Seems like that, additional to lineage 1000 is will open option of 500 plus (E190) used jets can be purchased and modify for PN (sea sultan) or even PAF in future
> 
> If i am not wrong E190 will cheaper then Lineage 1000



Range difference e190 was basis for 1000 but some mods let see


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## ghazi52

Westland WS-61 Sea King MK45 Helicopters assigned to Pakistan Naval Air Arm

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## Moon

Rafi said:


> Difficult but not impossible, my personal opinion is there will be some assistance from Embraer, if the PN succeeds they can market this for other countries, and make the only viable competition for the P8.


With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.

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## Rafi

Mr.Meap said:


> With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
> I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.



No because it is virtually same as the commercial aircraft it is based on, so not a problem at all.

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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> Range difference e190 was basis for 1000 but some mods let see


Lineage have double fuel capacity then E190 due to additional fuel tanks in cargo area. 
If these tanks added to E190 cargo area it can become something Similar thematically


Mr.Meap said:


> With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
> I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.


500 plus E190 exits around world
Note E190 + additional fuel tank = lineage 100

If we exclude specialed VIP interior of lineage which will totally replaced when converting to sea sultan

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> Lineage have double fuel capacity then E190 due to additional fuel tanks in cargo area.
> If these tanks added to E190 cargo area it can become something Similar thematically
> 
> 500 plus E190 exits around world
> Note E190 + additional fuel tank = lineage 100
> 
> If we exclude specialed VIP interior of lineage which will totally replaced when converting to sea sultan



Pn contract wanted a minimum fleet to be operational I think 100 so if only counting lineage 28 it wouldn’t qualify so both 1000 and 190 together count is over 100 

Bottom line can convert 190 to 1000

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## iLION12345_1

Mr.Meap said:


> With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
> I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.


I answered this in another forum thread already. L-1000 is part of the E-190 family, of which there are over 1600 aircraft in existence and Embraer is the worlds third largest aircraft manufacturer. PN will have no issue with spare parts as 95% of the parts will be shared, just the layout of the aircraft is different. PN obviously knows what it’s buying.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> I answered this in another forum thread already. L-1000 is part of the E-190 family, of which there are over 1600 aircraft in existence and Embraer is the worlds third largest aircraft manufacturer. PN will have no issue with spare parts as 95% of the parts will be shared, just the layout of the aircraft is different. PN obviously knows what it’s buying.


Totally agree even we just count E190 and E195 they are aroud 800 plus these are same of lineage 1000.
If we include other family of E series numbers go much browned.. they are almost same jet with minor capacity and engine change ..

PN has taken very wise decision and sensible path of Embraer (non American) , there jets are used worldwide and are ecnomical and reliable

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## fatman17

MRPA

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## Bossman

Moon said:


> With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
> I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.



Lineage was selected because of its range. Range is a critical performance measure for MPA. Lineage range is slightly more than that of P8. Most of the parts are interchangeable with other Embraer liners.

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## Moon

Bossman said:


> Lineage was selected because of its range. Range is a critical performance measure for MPA. Lineage range is slightly more than that of P8. Most of the parts are interchangeable with other Embraer liners.


Is it wise to compare the range of a modified aircraft with that of the L-1000? Won't there be changes in both their ranges as well?


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## Bossman

Moon said:


> Is it wise to compare the range of a modified aircraft with that of the L-1000? Won't there be changes in both their ranges as well?


PN don’t have the option of modifying an airframe. Adding range is fundamental change in calculations of the design. A very costly affair. It has to pick off the shelf.


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## razgriz19

Do you know how much it costs to modify an aircraft? Why would PN pay more to have the aircraft modified twice (Long range configuration and then MPA)

Embraer has done the first step already in the shape of Lineage 1000. PN just has to do the second bit.

Lineage is the same aircraft as E190 optimized for long range.


Moon said:


> With only 28 Lineage 1000 to exist, and supposedly 10 with us, who'll buy the rest of the 18? Lineage 1000 IMO was a bad choice, we should've gone with something which has more spare parts in the market, probably old A320 or A310s, and then used them as an excuse to build an Airbus overhaul facility for other commercial jets as well.
> I think going for the L-1000 is going to bite us in the future.


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## Scorpiooo

Bossman said:


> PN don’t have the option of modifying an airframe. Adding range is fundamental change in calculations of the design. A very costly affair. It has to pick off the shelf.


PN will not change airframe by them , this project will be give it to some foreign expert company..

Additionally range can be extended by adding more fuel tanks in cargo region ( as done to modify line1000 from E190 by Embraer)


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## ghazi52



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## Bossman

Scorpiooo said:


> PN will not change airframe by them , this project will be give it to some foreign expert company..
> 
> Additionally range can be extended by adding more fuel tanks in cargo region ( as done to modify line1000 from E190 by Embraer)


When I say PN, it is as the sponsor of the project not as actually doing the modification. They don’t have the capacity. For that matter no one in Pakistan has such capacity. Your second point supports my view. Adding range is best done at the OEM/design level. Very difficult to do by a third party.


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## ghazi52



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## Dazzler

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 756681


Flying more than p3c nowadays.

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## mingle

Dazzler said:


> Flying more than p3c nowadays.


Looks like Navy live them more than P3C s maybe fuel economical more modern sensor suit?


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## Aamir Hussain

Today saw a P3C Orion taking off from JIAP. I was boarding a flight for ISB at that time

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## Mir Shahzain

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413795704091316224


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## Akh1112

Mir Shahzain said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413795704091316224


yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah no, until someone drops flight deck max weight numbers for the ada ill stay skeptical.

The 101 is like 4.5t heavier than the s70. More likely to see the AW159.

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## Imran Khan

Mir Shahzain said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413795704091316224


how ?????? do we signed a contract ?


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## Zarvan

Mir Shahzain said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413795704091316224


Both its size and price makes me skeptical.


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## FuturePAF

Didn’t know where to post this, but figured here was as good as any. Considering the advancements in AI and UAV technology, I hope Pakistan collaborates with which every Conpany or country revisit this design, and consider a AI powered UAV version of this design for the ASW And Anti-Shipping Roles.

Perhaps swarms of small versions of these could help localize enemy submarines, quickly, creating a bastion from which The PN surface ships could operate within.

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## Inception-06

Nishan_101 said:


> I am quite sure that the 9-10 SA316 B Alouette III will going to be replaced with 11 Z-9C in near future as well.


I miss you everyday what’s your new Cover name here ?


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## Abid123

Need two squadrons (36 fighter jets) for maritime operations and strike roles.


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## Scorpiooo

Abid123 said:


> Need two squadrons (36 fighter jets) for maritime operations and strike roles.


PN need heavyweight and medium weight combinations, meduim for defensive role and heavyweight for offensive role


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## Akh1112

Abid123 said:


> Need two squadrons (36 fighter jets) for maritime operations and strike roles.




Thats the Air Force's job.


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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> Thats the Air Force's job.


Yes but in coming years we can see independent naval air airm with own fighter jets, till then PAF will continue this role but PAF need to have heavyweight jets dedicated for this offense role over sea.


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes but in coming years we can see independent naval air airm with own fighter jets, till then PAF will continue this role but PAF need to have heavyweight jets dedicated for this offense role over sea.




They absolutely do not. Pakistan needs to defend its maritime trade routes and its EEZ, nothing of which cannot be done with current assets. Its a waste of money and pointless,


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> They absolutely do not. Pakistan needs to defend its maritime trade routes and its EEZ, nothing of which cannot be done with current assets. Its a waste of money and pointless,


Everyone's using the Pak Navy forum to wish for an aircraft carrier. Get with the program.

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## Aamir Hussain

I don't foresee a fighter air arm for PN. PAF will continue to do that. Both forces are working towards integrating their C3I for seaward defense and lot of work has been done in this regards. AWACS input are now viewable by PN and some other assets are also being integrated.

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## ARMalik

PN not having a dedicated air arm is a SERIOUS strategic error. Unless there is a hybrid command structure where seamless PN - PAF engagement happens, PAF just does not have the capability to understand the intricacies of sea warfare.

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## iLION12345_1

ARMalik said:


> PN not having a dedicated air arm is a SERIOUS strategic error. Unless there is a hybrid command structure where seamless PN - PAF engagement happens, PAF just does not have the capability to understand the intricacies of sea warfare.


PN has an air arm. Fighter jets ≠ air arm. 
PN is already massively upgrading Its air arm with ATRs, Sea sultans, UAVs and helicopters (coming with the new ships). Currently PN has little need for fighter jets as PAF can already cover that need.

In an ideal world sure the PN can have a couple of fighter squadrons for covering naval assets and maritime strike but PN has a dozen priorities before that whine they are currently fulfilling in the form of basically every single type of ship, submarine and aircraft.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Everyone's using the Pak Navy forum to wish for an aircraft carrier. Get with the program.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) why most people mix heavy fighter for naval role associate with aircraft carrier? 

Heavyweight fighters work well when used from land to keep enemies within there on area.


Akh1112 said:


> They absolutely do not. Pakistan needs to defend its maritime trade routes and its EEZ, nothing of which cannot be done with current assets. Its a waste of money and pointless,


Do you really think combo of few good old Mirage and JfTs will enough for protection of Gawadar and karachi ports and sea routes and our EEZ


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) why most people mix heavy fighter for naval role associate with aircraft carrier?
> 
> Heavyweight fighters work well when used from land to keep enemies within there on area.
> 
> Do you really think combo of few good old Mirage and JfTs will enough for protection of Gawadar and karachi ports and sea routes and our EEZ




absolutely not, thats why we have a Navy.


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## Scorpiooo

Aamir Hussain said:


> I don't foresee a fighter air arm for PN. PAF will continue to do that. Both forces are working towards integrating their C3I for seaward defense and lot of work has been done in this regards. AWACS input are now viewable by PN and some other assets are also being integrated.


You are right they are doing well till date and hopefully will continue do well in future.
My point of PN naval air arm having fighters is for future (atleast decade or more) ... offcouse its a opnion .. we cant predict what actual planing of our forces will be in future


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ARMalik said:


> PN not having a dedicated air arm is a SERIOUS strategic error. Unless there is a hybrid command structure where seamless PN - PAF engagement happens, PAF just does not have the capability to understand the intricacies of sea warfare.





iLION12345_1 said:


> PN has an air arm. Fighter jets ≠ air arm.
> PN is already massively upgrading Its air arm with ATRs, Sea sultans, UAVs and helicopters (coming with the new ships). Currently PN has little need for fighter jets as PAF can already cover that need.
> 
> In an ideal world sure the PN can have a couple of fighter squadrons for covering naval assets and maritime strike but PN has a dozen priorities before that whine they are currently fulfilling in the form of basically every single type of ship, submarine and aircraft.


In some seriousness, I think the fleet expansion to 20-25 'major surface vessels' is significant growth for the PN. Not only that, but you'll typically only see fleets of that size in blue water navies like Britain, France, India, South Korea, and Japan. We'll need to see how many Jinnah-class frigates the PN ultimately orders; if they're looking at 8-12 ships, then to be frank, that's a very strong fleet for any country (except for superpowers).

Thing is, superpowers aren't the only ones now pursuing carriers and seaborne fighter-wings. The F-35B did make it a lot easier for smaller blue water navies, and since Pakistan doesn't have access to it, our options are basically non-existent. That said, I do think LHD-borne UCAVs will become a thing (e.g., Turkey is working on a design as we speak), and I do think the PN will consider that option 10-15 years from now.

Now as for the value of a naval fighter wing. If it was purely for A2/AD, then we don't need to change anything -- the PAF force is sufficient (especially if the PAF adds a long-range fighter). However, I think one outcome of an enlarged PN surface fleet is that around-the-clock top cover may be necessary if the PN opts to put some of its fleet farther out (e.g., to discourage India's fuel imports from the Gulf).

Remember, the question of "need" is only one part of the story. Yes, we don't need an aircraft carrier if said carriers cost like $4-5 b to acquire upfront and $1-2 b a year to maintain. However, what if we could get smaller carriers for $1-2 b upfront and operate it for $100-200 m a year? I suspect Turkey and China are both working towards such designs (albeit likely with UCAV focus), but it may be an option for the PN.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In some seriousness, I think the fleet expansion to 20-25 'major surface vessels' is significant growth for the PN. Not only that, but you'll typically only see fleets of that size in blue water navies like Britain, France, India, South Korea, and Japan. We'll need to see how many Jinnah-class frigates the PN ultimately orders; if they're looking at 8-12 ships, then to be frank, that's a very strong fleet for any country (except for superpowers).
> 
> Thing is, superpowers aren't the only ones now pursuing carriers and seaborne fighter-wings. The F-35B did make it a lot easier for smaller blue water navies, and since Pakistan doesn't have access to it, our options are basically non-existent. That said, I do think LHD-borne UCAVs will become a thing (e.g., Turkey is working on a design as we speak), and I do think the PN will consider that option 10-15 years from now.
> 
> Now as for the value of a naval fighter wing. If it was purely for A2/AD, then we don't need to change anything -- the PAF force is sufficient (especially if the PAF adds a long-range fighter). However, I think one outcome of an enlarged PN surface fleet is that around-the-clock top cover may be necessary if the PN opts to put some of its fleet farther out (e.g., to discourage India's fuel imports from the Gulf).
> 
> Remember, the question of "need" is only one part of the story. Yes, we don't need an aircraft carrier if said carriers cost like $4-5 b to acquire upfront and $1-2 b a year to maintain. However, what if we could get smaller carriers for $1-2 b upfront and operate it for $100-200 m a year? I suspect Turkey and China are both working towards such designs (albeit likely with UCAV focus), but it may be an option for the PN.




I definitely agree that after this major fleet expansion the PN will be seeing a change in how they operate, aircraft will play a part. LHDs and carriers become a reality at that point, it also depends on how much PN is willing to change its doctrine after this expansion, because as you say, they will be comparable to some of the larger navies in the world at that point, which shouldn’t sound so out of order, given the size of the PA and PAF, but it is still staggering to see the growth.

Part of me dreams that someday in 2035-2040 PN goes for a light carrier, not just an LHD. You don’t necessarily need a 50000 ton carrier, even a 30000 Ton carrier can be used with a small air group of carrier borne jets (J31/J35?) and a small carrier group of ships and submarines.
PN certainly doesn’t need to go far into the oceans, they don’t need a super carrier, so keeping that in mind, plus help from China and Turkey (or if things improve enough, maybe on our own), a PN specific design can be made.

But coming back to a more realistic approach, an LHD with UCAVs and helicopters, something like what Turkey is doing and China is making, is basically a given for the PN at some point. it’s the natural progression for them, even if they buy a used one from China due to costs, it will be a good force multiplier. At some point, one not too far from the current modernization plan of 20-25 ships (so like maybe at 30?), PN will hit the limit of the amount of surface ships it needs, so it will definitely look for other ways to increase its capability and power projection.


I still think some ground based fighters for PN could be a reality too, if at some point funds permit and a squadron or two are purchased, then there’s obviously nothing wrong with that. it’s simply adding to the capability. I just feel like with everything else the navy needs and wants for the near and rather far future, ground based jets will just not be a consideration, better Co-ordination with PAF assets is much cheaper for basically most of the result, but we can surely hope.


PS: Bilal, you have a habit of reading my mind and presenting it better than I ever could Your more opinion based posts are highly appreciated, thanks.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In some seriousness, I think the fleet expansion to 20-25 'major surface vessels' is significant growth for the PN. Not only that, but you'll typically only see fleets of that size in blue water navies like Britain, France, India, South Korea, and Japan. We'll need to see how many Jinnah-class frigates the PN ultimately orders; if they're looking at 8-12 ships, then to be frank, that's a very strong fleet for any country (except for superpowers).
> 
> Thing is, superpowers aren't the only ones now pursuing carriers and seaborne fighter-wings. The F-35B did make it a lot easier for smaller blue water navies, and since Pakistan doesn't have access to it, our options are basically non-existent. That said, I do think LHD-borne UCAVs will become a thing (e.g., Turkey is working on a design as we speak), and I do think the PN will consider that option 10-15 years from now.
> 
> Now as for the value of a naval fighter wing. If it was purely for A2/AD, then we don't need to change anything -- the PAF force is sufficient (especially if the PAF adds a long-range fighter). However, I think one outcome of an enlarged PN surface fleet is that around-the-clock top cover may be necessary if the PN opts to put some of its fleet farther out (e.g., to discourage India's fuel imports from the Gulf).
> 
> Remember, the question of "need" is only one part of the story. Yes, we don't need an aircraft carrier if said carriers cost like $4-5 b to acquire upfront and $1-2 b a year to maintain. However, what if we could get smaller carriers for $1-2 b upfront and operate it for $100-200 m a year? I suspect Turkey and China are both working towards such designs (albeit likely with UCAV focus), but it may be an option for the PN.




Can you dm me again, i need some help RE Pakistan's AESA. Ive uncovered some stuff.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Can you dm me again, i need some help RE Pakistan's AESA. Ive uncovered some stuff.


DM on the forum or Twitter?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> I definitely agree that after this major fleet expansion the PN will be seeing a change in how they operate, aircraft will play a part. LHDs and carriers become a reality at that point, it also depends on how much PN is willing to change its doctrine after this expansion, because as you say, they will be comparable to some of the larger navies in the world at that point, which shouldn’t sound so out of order, given the size of the PA and PAF, but it is still staggering to see the growth.
> 
> Part of me dreams that someday in 2035-2040 PN goes for a light carrier, not just an LHD. You don’t necessarily need a 50000 ton carrier, even a 30000 Ton carrier can be used with a small air group of carrier borne jets (J31/J35?) and a small carrier group of ships and submarines.
> PN certainly doesn’t need to go far into the oceans, they don’t need a super carrier, so keeping that in mind, plus help from China and Turkey (or if things improve enough, maybe on our own), a PN specific design can be made.
> 
> But coming back to a more realistic approach, an LHD with UCAVs and helicopters, something like what Turkey is doing and China is making, is basically a given for the PN at some point. it’s the natural progression for them, even if they buy a used one from China due to costs, it will be a good force multiplier. At some point, one not too far from the current modernization plan of 20-25 ships (so like maybe at 30?), PN will hit the limit of the amount of surface ships it needs, so it will definitely look for other ways to increase its capability and power projection.
> 
> 
> I still think some ground based fighters for PN could be a reality too, if at some point funds permit and a squadron or two are purchased, then there’s obviously nothing wrong with that. it’s simply adding to the capability. I just feel like with everything else the navy needs and wants for the near and rather far future, ground based jets will just not be a consideration, better Co-ordination with PAF assets is much cheaper for basically most of the result, but we can surely hope.
> 
> 
> PS: Bilal, you have a habit of reading my mind and presenting it better than I ever could Your more opinion based posts are highly appreciated, thanks.


The light carrier (30,000-tons?) could make a comeback, but there are some major technical constraints -- catapult technology and suitable aircraft, and the two are interconnected.

I don't think we'll see another STOVL after the F-35B, so someone would have to develop a STOL/XTOL aircraft.

Turkey's likely studying the Hurjet as the starting point for an original carrier fighter to achieve a STOL/XTOL capability (without needing catapults). I'm guessing they might end up with a lightweight type: new-age A-4s or Etendards, perhaps?

Before that, they'll likely start with UCAVs.

The challenge with UCAVs is, basically, are they any good? We're not the standard-bearers of AI/ML here, so we're talking about either remote-piloting or very basic automation. The good thing about this situation is that a carrier is literally moving, so we could maintain a strong radio LoS link with our UCAVs.

Personally, I'm game for co-developing a lightweight carrier fighter that can do STOL or even XTOL. The latter could potentially work from LHDs (negating the need for a pure carrier and binding fleet air defence with amphibious support). The drawback though is that said lightweight fighter isn't going to have that much range or payload, it's a baseline solution (fleet defence and SOW strikes?).

But all that said, I do think some type of fleet-based air capability is coming. No way we have a fleet of 20-25 large ships without it. Sure, it may be UCAVs from 20,000-ton LHDs or even one-time disposable UCAVs from rails (which we can fit to PNS Moawin), but it's coming IMHO.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> DM on the forum or Twitter?




check twitter, its really urgent


----------



## ghazi52



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## Akh1112

enjoy some information RE the P8s APY-10 radar modes and procedures 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418603490704728074
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) i feel infinitely less bad now :p

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## Ahmet Pasha

Akh1112 said:


> enjoy some information RE the P8s APY-10 radar modes and procedures
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418603490704728074
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) i feel infinitely less bad now :p


It most likely were girls who made quizlet. They really like to make quizlets for themselves.


----------



## khanasifm

That’s almost $450 million for 4 heli I doubt pn has that kind of $$ so pn will go with Chinese z9 and z20 for future growth , I think 🤔









First AW101 helicopter for Polish Navy completes maiden flight


Leonardo has announced that Polish Navy’s first AW101 (ZR285) helicopter completed its maiden flight at its Yeovil site.




www.naval-technology.com


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## Tipu7

khanasifm said:


> That’s almost $450 million for 4 heli I doubt pn has that kind of $$ so pn will go with Chinese z9 and z20 for future growth , I think 🤔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First AW101 helicopter for Polish Navy completes maiden flight
> 
> 
> Leonardo has announced that Polish Navy’s first AW101 (ZR285) helicopter completed its maiden flight at its Yeovil site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.naval-technology.com


This price tag is for ASW version. IMO, PN, if ever followed AW-101, will buy a standard version for roles like air mobility, air assault, CSAR, etc. In this case, ASW choice will be different and more practical without a compromise on efficiency.

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## khanasifm

Tipu7 said:


> This price tag is for ASW version. PN, if ever followed AW-101, will buy a standard version for roles like air mobility, air assault, CSAR, etc. In this case, ASW choice will be different and more practical without a compromise on efficiency.



well pn sea king replacement need asw and asuw too for longer range and bow all newer ship can carry medium 10-15 ton class heli too 

let’s see time will tell


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## Akh1112

khanasifm said:


> That’s almost $450 million for 4 heli I doubt pn has that kind of $$ so pn will go with Chinese z9 and z20 for future growth , I think 🤔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First AW101 helicopter for Polish Navy completes maiden flight
> 
> 
> Leonardo has announced that Polish Navy’s first AW101 (ZR285) helicopter completed its maiden flight at its Yeovil site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.naval-technology.com



Might not be bad deal when you consider the amount of supporting package the poles could have bought.

asw isn’t cheap, iirc the Indians paid something similar per unit for their mh60rs.

problem with z9s is the low loiter time and also dated sensors with not much capability to grow, it’s a platform being abandoned by the plan.


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## Michel Niesten

One of the reasons the helicopters for Poland are so expensive, is the transfer of knowledge. One of the Polish WZL companies will be doing modifications and maintenance to the choppers. And the transfer of knowledge is quite expensive. WZL has to pay a certain amount of money to be able to get the participation in this project.

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## farooqbhai007

PN reportedly acquired ex- Qatari sea kings.
This one above has had its QEAF embelem replaced by PN while the chopper might receive a new PN pa9ng job.

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## Yasser76

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 766847
> 
> PN reportedly acquired ex- Qatari sea kings.
> This one above has had its QEAF embelem replaced by PN while the chopper might receive a new PN pa9ng job.




Great news, they have 11 in total, adds to the 8 in PN service and will make 19 in total if we make all operational, we can at least create another helicopter unit dedicated to transport Marines/SSGN

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## PakFactor

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 766847
> 
> PN reportedly acquired ex- Qatari sea kings.
> This one above has had its QEAF embelem replaced by PN while the chopper might receive a new PN pa9ng job.



Desert looks pretty decent as well. 
We might go the gray route.


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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 766847
> 
> PN reportedly acquired ex- Qatari sea kings.
> This one above has had its QEAF embelem replaced by PN while the chopper might receive a new PN pa9ng job.


These are their Sea King commando MK.3, they have Dorsal Radom and can carry AShMs. Qatar has 8 of these, plus three commando MK2A variants for assault and utility purpose. All commando variants have lengthened fuselages over normal sea kings iirc


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## farooqbhai007

Apparently 10 are being aquired which will be overhauled and some might be scrapped.

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## Yasser76

farooqbhai007 said:


> Apparently 10 are being aquired which will be overhauled and some might be scrapped.



Well now looks like Sea King fleet is not going anywhere for at least another 10 years.

Be interesting to see what option we go with for MILGEM/Jinnah class....

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## khanasifm

Photos of the day: Z-9D 001


Back in July 2008, I posted a photo of Z-9D prototype 001 geared as a AShCM carrier equipped with a pair of TL-10 missiles. Well, it now ap...




china-defense.blogspot.com

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## araz

farooqbhai007 said:


> Apparently 10 are being aquired which will be overhauled and some might be scrapped.


Sir Fatman reported a year or so a ago that a lot of Sea kings(Probably from UK) were for Sale at 2 million a pop. THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE SUCH A BAD INVESTMENT IF IT FULFILLS our requirements for 10 years. Gives us time to organize a replacement
A

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> Sir Fatman reported a year or so a ago that a lot of Sea kings(Probably from UK) were for Sale at 2 million a pop. THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE SUCH A BAD INVESTMENT IF IT FULFILLS our requirements for 10 years. Gives us time to organize a replacement
> A



Great deal, PN knows Sea King like back of it's hand. We have plenty of pilots and engineers on it (many probably working for Qataris!), the Utility version gives us the option of now raising a small squadron for the Marines/SSGN to act as assault transports in addition to the ASW/AShW unit we aleady have.

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 767055


Looks like ssm ans ciws for Turkish and/or damen ship may be coming from type 21 

pn had between 8-12 phalanx systems andnumber of harpoon ssm launchers


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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Everyone's using the Pak Navy forum to wish for an aircraft carrier. Get with the program.


What Pakistan Navy will eventually safeguard the EEZ with, is something that will surprise even folks in here. Keep the ears and eyes peeled at updates until 2024-2027 time period. But I like the fact that even the most ambitious takes do not mention what is happening right now. The eventual target for these updates is to negate Northern IOR to IN. And to secure the Djibouti-Gwadar and Gwadar-Mombasa corridors.

None of it involves heavy-duty air crafts, they are not needed!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> What Pakistan Navy will eventually safeguard the EEZ with, is something that will surprise even folks in here. Keep the ears and eyes peeled at updates until 2024-2027 time period. But I like the fact that even the most ambitious takes do not mention what is happening right now. The eventual target for these updates is to negate Northern IOR to IN. And to secure the Djibouti-Gwadar and Gwadar-Mombasa corridors.
> 
> None of it involves heavy-duty air crafts, they are not needed!


So what this man's saying is, expect an aircraft carrier with light/medium-weight aircraft

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## Ark_Angel

They are landing with in a week on QEAF C-17s.

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## Primus

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 767055


Which ship is that?


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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> Which ship is that?


Type 21

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> Type 21


Thanks


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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> Thanks


PN had gotten 8 Brooke & Garcia class FFGs from US on lease in late 80s. PN spent a lot of money upgrading those with Standard SM1 SAMs, Phalanx CIWS, Harpoons and ASROCs. The agreement was these would be transferred to Pakistan eventually. However US cancelled the lease in 94 due to Pressler amendment sanctions and demanded the assets to be returned. PN took off all the equipment it had installed. The CIWS, Harpoons were then installed on Type21 bought from UK later on.
The Standard SM1s I beleive are still sitting somewhere in storage in KHI docks.

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> PN had gotten 8 Brooke & Garcia class FFGs from US on lease in late 80s. PN spent a lot of money upgrading those with Standard SM1 SAMs, Phalanx CIWS, Harpoons and ASROCs. The agreement was these would be transferred to Pakistan eventually. However US cancelled the lease in 94 due to Pressler amendment sanctions and demanded the assets to be returned. PN took off all the equipment it had installed. The CIWS, Harpoons were then installed on Type21 bought from UK later on.
> The Standard SM1s I beleive are still sitting somewhere in storage in KHI docks.


So we did buy the sm1. Nice

Thanks for the history lesson

Unfortunate we didn't get the sm1 but that's the US for you. Cough cough Ah1z and f16s cough cough


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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> So we did buy the sm1. Nice
> 
> Thanks for the history lesson
> 
> Unfortunate we didn't get the sm1 but that's the US for you. Cough cough Ah1z and f16s cough cough


No we had the SAMS as well. But they could not be installed on any other platform afterwards. So kept in storage.


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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So what this man's saying is, expect an aircraft carrier with light/medium-weight aircraft


LOL! Nothing with a jet engine. =P


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## khanasifm

054a flight deck not sure if sea king will be able to use it tonnage wise yes but dimension wise not sure 🤔

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## JamD

kursed said:


> LOL! Nothing with a jet engine. =P


p282 ki taraf ishara or I'm totally off?


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So what this man's saying is, expect an aircraft carrier with light/medium-weight aircraft


Perhaps along the lines of this?




But it would be really great if they are thinking that far out in terms of SLOCs

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## JamD

SQ8 said:


> Perhaps along the lines of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it would be really great if they are thinking that far out in terms of SLOCs


As long as we're along the wishing well, how about rods from god

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> No we had the SAMS as well. But they could not be installed on any other platform afterwards. So kept in storage.


Ahhh. Couldn't they be installed on our OHP?


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## araz

Gripen9 said:


> No we had the SAMS as well. But they could not be installed on any other platform afterwards. So kept in storage.


I heard we had a lot of issues trying to install newer hardware on the type 21s. Lack of experience, and other technical issues may have contributed to why the integration could not take place although I heard of the deck fracturing when an attempt was made to install some hardware as well. All in all PN has since been quite careful about installing newer hardware in house. I think things might have moved on since then and therefore we hope for the best.
A


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## Gripen9

araz said:


> I heard we had a lot of issues trying to install newer hardware on the type 21s. Lack of experience, and other technical issues may have contributed to why the integration could not take place although I heard of the deck fracturing when an attempt was made to install some hardware as well. All in all PN has since been quite careful about installing newer hardware in house. I think things might have moved on since then and therefore we hope for the best.
> A


I had heard of hull stress as well. But in the end they were able to install the Harpoons and Phalanxes. The big 6 shot ASROC box launchers and the Mk 22 RIM 66 launchers from the Brooke class were too big. And Mk22 launchers required installation of under deck missile magazine that would have required extensive upgrade to an already 35 year old ship.

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## kursed

JamD said:


> p282 ki taraf ishara or I'm totally off?


Entirely off. =)

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> Perhaps along the lines of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it would be really great if they are thinking that far out in terms of SLOCs


What I am talking about has nothing to do with aerial assets.

So, here's the thing. By 2027, Pakistan's entire EEZ, Gwadar-Mombasa and Gwadar-Dijbouti corridors need to be secured and IN needs to be interdicted, surveilled at all times. If Pakistan went by just aerial assets, it'd have been a costly venture. As things are progressing as per plans, IN will not find it easy coming to North/NorthWestern IOR (let alone our shores) in 5 years or so.

Now, everyone here is talking about the lethality of incoming Chinese ships and subs, but literally, no one has mentioned the primary role and capability they deploy in SCS. And there is the hint for what their role would be in securing the above areas for us.

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## JamD

kursed said:


> What I am talking about has nothing to do with aerial assets.
> 
> So, here's the thing. By 2027, Pakistan's entire EEZ, Gwadar-Mombasa and Gwadar-Dijbouti corridors need to be secured and IN needs to be interdicted, surveilled at all times. If Pakistan went by just aerial assets, it'd have been a costly venture. As things are progressing as per plans, IN will not find it easy coming to North/NorthWestern IOR (let alone our shores) in 5 years or so.
> 
> Now, everyone here is talking about the lethality of incoming Chinese ships and subs, but literally, no one has mentioned the primary role and capability they deploy in SCS. And there is the hint for what their role would be in securing the above areas for us.


SOSUS type scene?

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> SOSUS type scene?


I think the pointer is to Type075 or anadolu.

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## HRK

JamD said:


> SOSUS type scene?


Few years back there was a porposal of SOSUS type monitoring sys for Pakistani coastline but due to some technical reason or because of Finance issue that project was not persuaded, so now they might be again thinking for such system

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> Few years back there was a porposal of SOSUS type monitoring sys for Pakistani coastline but due to some technical reason or because of Finance issue that project was not persuaded, so now they might be again thinking for such system


From what I remember, the Ex-Navy chief in his last speech clearly mentioned SOSUS type system.

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> I had heard of hull stress as well. But in the end they were able to install the Harpoons and Phalanxes. The big 6 shot ASROC box launchers and the Mk 22 RIM 66 launchers from the Brooke class were too big. And Mk22 launchers required installation of under deck missile magazine that would have required extensive upgrade to an already 35 year old ship.


Is it possible for the rim66 launchers to be installed on the yarmook corvettes?


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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> From what I remember, the Ex-Navy chief in his last speech clearly mentioned SOSUS type system.


Ok I will listen again that speech was a real treasure trove in terms of revelations of future programs of PN ....

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## kursed

JamD said:


> SOSUS type scene?


I love how fast you get to the point. =) On point, now add the next-gen component to it. Read up on what PLAN is doing in the SCS .. and what their neighbors are picking up in their waters and you'd get an idea of where I am coming from. =)

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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> Is it possible for the rim66 launchers to be installed on the yarmook corvettes?


They are almost 40 year old, with the newer VLS systems why try to integrate something that old.
The missiles may not be viable either after being in storage for such a long time.

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> They are almost 40 year old, with the newer VLS systems why try to integrate something that old.
> The missiles may not be viable either after being in storage for such a long time.


Sad...


----------



## Gripen9

kursed said:


> I love how fast you get to the point. =) On point, now add the next-gen component to it. Read up on what PLAN is doing in the SCS .. and what their neighbors are picking up in their waters and you'd get an idea of where I am coming from. =)


A string of UUVs equipped with passive sonabouys?

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## kursed

Gripen9 said:


> A string of UUVs equipped with passive sonabouys?


=)

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## Bilal.

Gripen9 said:


> A string of UUVs equipped with passive sonabouys?


Even UUV is mentioned in the EX-Navy chief’s speech along with directed energy weapons.


HRK said:


> Ok I will listen again that speech was a real treasure trove in terms of revelations of future programs of PN ....


Absolutely! One thing I keep thinking about is the offshore Hydrocarbon reserves he spoke about… if what he said is true and work is done on it then it’s massive!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gripen9 said:


> A string of UUVs equipped with passive sonabouys?





kursed said:


> =)





Bilal. said:


> Even UUV is mentioned in the EX-Navy chief’s speech along with directed energy weapons.
> 
> Absolutely! One thing I keep thinking about is the offshore Hydrocarbon reserves he spoke about… if what he said is true and work is done on it then it’s massive!



The 'silent service' part of the PN is taking its job very seriously. We have the 8 Hangor SSPs, but the current CNS said we're looking for SWATs, and Turkish's foreign minister said there are talks about collaborating on a submarine. Like the surface fleet, I think the sub-surface fleet is going to swell in a lot of directions, e.g., SWAT with AIP, full-size subs with AIP (Hangor plus some other type IMHO), and UUVs.

That said, I do think the PAF is working on bringing an aerial A2/AD capability. The ASR for AZM definitely allows for it (big twin-engine design), so besides deep strike, I think maritime ops is a thing. The PN's sub-surface efforts are aimed at neutralizing the IN's ships and subs, but AZM could be in the air to stop LRMPAs (that can threaten those sub-surface assets).

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## Metal 0-1

kursed said:


> LOL! Nothing with a jet engine. =P


Ex CNS mentioned to increase the size of Marines and SSG-N so I guess a LHD/Amphibious Landing Ship could be in pipeline for Air Mobility and amphibious operations.

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## Sifar zero

Bilal. said:


> Even UUV is mentioned in the EX-Navy chief’s speech along with directed energy weapons.
> 
> Absolutely! One thing I keep thinking about is the offshore Hydrocarbon reserves he spoke about… if what he said is true and work is done on it then it’s massive!


Hey can you please link the part about UUV's?


----------



## Bilal.

Sifar zero said:


> Hey can you please link the part about UUV's?


Please watch from 20:08






Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization


The (former) CNS Admiral Zafar Mehmood Abbasi reveals in his farewell address that the PN is procuring 4 MILGEM Ada corvettes from Turkey. Delivery timeline is between 2023-2025. The key takeaway is that design and engineering technology transfer will take place and the FIFTH (5th) ship will be...



defence.pk

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## Syntage

Bilal. said:


> Please watch from 20:08
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization
> 
> 
> The (former) CNS Admiral Zafar Mehmood Abbasi reveals in his farewell address that the PN is procuring 4 MILGEM Ada corvettes from Turkey. Delivery timeline is between 2023-2025. The key takeaway is that design and engineering technology transfer will take place and the FIFTH (5th) ship will be...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



I think Pakistan has serious & capable professional people who can make UUVs.They are more effective and can go deeper then any manned platform.China has been working in this area and we can collaborate with them as well.

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## ghazi52

.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 768153
> 
> .
> 
> 
> View attachment 768154


The sea king is landing on what type of ship ? Tanker ??


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Looks like Pak might follow Turkey’s path to safeguard her EEZ:

5k km rage Akinji/Aksungur UAVs with naval SIGINT and Anti-ship/submarine capabilities. Couple it with AESA radars and A2A capability. They’ll work as airborne naval checkpoints
Light aircraft carriers with TB3 tactical UAV, MIUS jet powered combat UAV etc.
Highly classified MILGEM based SIGINT and ELINT ship 
Unmanned naval platforms with deadly speed and deadlier weapons/sensors package
Etc.

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## S A L M A N.

araz said:


> I heard we had a lot of issues trying to install newer hardware on the type 21s. Lack of experience, and other technical issues may have contributed to why the integration could not take place although I heard of the deck fracturing when an attempt was made to install some hardware as well. All in all PN has since been quite careful about installing newer hardware in house. I think things might have moved on since then and therefore we hope for the best.
> A



These problems were real during the 1990s. But today, with the human resource at NRDI, although still very basic, a lot of these in-house redesign and modernization efforts can be undertaken. NRDI's benefit has been to provide a single-point, dedicated technical support resource to the entire Navy, to which all technical problems beyond the scope of routine maintenance and repair can be referred.

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## Khan vilatey

on the 22nd anniversary of the brave Atlantic sacrifice, Please comment on the following thread to remind us of what it takes to defend freedom 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pn-atlantic-crew-why-are-they-heros-of-pakistan.684364/

k

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## khanasifm

? Pn need more 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425746229842137095


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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> ? Pn need more
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425746229842137095


why not ... ??


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## khanasifm

HRK said:


> why not ... ??


 Taliban has more of these than pn 😂

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## ARMalik

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks like Pak might follow Turkey’s path to safeguard her EEZ:
> 
> 5k km rage Akinji/Aksungur UAVs with naval SIGINT and Anti-ship/submarine capabilities. Couple it with AESA radars and A2A capability. They’ll work as airborne naval checkpoints
> Light aircraft carriers with TB3 tactical UAV, MIUS jet powered combat UAV etc.
> Highly classified MILGEM based SIGINT and ELINT ship
> Unmanned naval platforms with deadly speed and deadlier weapons/sensors package
> Etc.



Without a long range Naval multi role fighter, this is still a weak navy in my view. JF-17, Mirages are not going to cut it. Depending purely on PAF for air support is also not going to cut it.

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## sparten

kursed said:


> So, here's the thing. By 2027, Pakistan's entire EEZ, Gwadar-Mombasa and Gwadar-Dijbouti corridors need to be secured and IN needs to be interdicted, surveilled at all times. If Pakistan went by just aerial assets, it'd have been a costly venture. As things are progressing as per plans, IN will not find it easy coming to North/NorthWestern IOR (let alone our shores) in 5 years or so.


Mombasa GWD= 4000km
Dijbouti GWD= 2500 km.
Surveillance needs satellites. And not small ones like the ones we have put up with China, but big ones like the Russian/Soviet RORSAT, which requires big *** SLV's (on the scale of a Delta III or even a Falcon 9).
Interdiction requires carriers, its not happening with our puny single-engined Thunders.

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> ? Pn need more
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425746229842137095



I read a report which list major defense items and it gave a number between 120-150 of these provided to Afghan forces, pn bought a dozen for million dollar a piece 
Talib can easily transfer a dozen to pn 😂


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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So what this man's saying is, expect an aircraft carrier with light/medium-weight aircraft



So you mean PLAN training ACC is coming to Pakistan??


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## Akh1112

Basel said:


> So you mean PLAN training ACC is coming to Pakistan??


No, no he doesn’t,

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## Incog_nito

I guess PN should negotiate with Agusta Westland to upgrade the whole Sea King fleet with the latest Avionics and Marine support systems.

Also, PN should plan (which is somehow already getting into shape) its future Aviation Fleet like this:

10~12 AW-101 Naval
10~12 AW-139 / AW-159 Naval
10~12 AW-109 Naval


10~12 Z-18 Naval
10~12 Z-20 Naval
10~12 Z-9EC Naval (already part of the PN Fleet)


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## MIRauf

Incog_nito said:


> I guess PN should negotiate with Agusta Westland to upgrade the whole Sea King fleet with the latest Avionics and Marine support systems.
> 
> Also, PN should plan (which is somehow already getting into shape) its future Aviation Fleet like this:
> 
> 10~12 AW-101 Naval
> 10~12 AW-139 / AW-159 Naval
> 10~12 AW-109 Naval
> 
> 
> 10~12 Z-18 Naval
> 10~12 Z-20 Naval
> 10~12 Z-9EC Naval (already part of the PN Fleet)


Damn, that is one maintenance nightmare, better list could be:

10 - 12 BMW i8
10 - 12 Benz AMG One
10 - 12 Audi R8

10 - 12 Mustang GT500
10 - 12 Vet Z-8
10 - 12 Hellcat Demon

Much easier to maintain.

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## Falconless

Incog_nito said:


> I guess PN should negotiate with Agusta Westland to upgrade the whole Sea King fleet with the latest Avionics and Marine support systems.
> 
> Also, PN should plan (which is somehow already getting into shape) its future Aviation Fleet like this:
> 
> 10~12 AW-101 Naval
> 10~12 AW-139 / AW-159 Naval
> 10~12 AW-109 Naval
> 
> 
> 10~12 Z-18 Naval
> 10~12 Z-20 Naval
> 10~12 Z-9EC Naval (already part of the PN Fleet)


One single type either the AW139 or AW149 don’t need to make the fleet too complex or we will face supply chain issues like our neighbours


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## Incog_nito

MIRauf said:


> Damn, that is one maintenance nightmare, better list could be:
> 
> 10 - 12 BMW i8
> 10 - 12 Benz AMG One
> 10 - 12 Audi R8
> 
> 10 - 12 Mustang GT500
> 10 - 12 Vet Z-8
> 10 - 12 Hellcat Demon
> 
> Much easier to maintain.



I am sure that Muslim countries will be there to assist us financially.

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## iLION12345_1



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## HRK

iLION12345_1 said:


>


Inducted without integration of sensors suit .... ???

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## Ali_Baba

The colour scheme of the Sea Sultan is odd given it is meant to be a ASW platform and not a regional airline ?!


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## air marshal

Embraer 190 Lineage 1000

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## TsAr

Ali_Baba said:


> The colour scheme of the Sea Sultan is odd given it is meant to be a ASW platform and not a regional airline ?!


they are yet to modify it, after the retrofit I am sure it will also get a new paint job.


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## Bossman

Ali_Baba said:


> The colour scheme of the Sea Sultan is odd given it is meant to be a ASW platform and not a regional airline ?!


It’s the new dazzle camouflage. It’s the latest trend.

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## Akh1112

Ali_Baba said:


> The colour scheme of the Sea Sultan is odd given it is meant to be a ASW platform and not a regional airline ?!


It’s the livery from the old operator. It’s not been repainted yet, it’ll get the same navy grey later.


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## Abid123

I think drones equipped with Anti-Ship cruise missiles would be good for Pakistan naval aviation.


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## Scorpiooo

Ali_Baba said:


> The colour scheme of the Sea Sultan is odd given it is meant to be a ASW platform and not a regional airline ?!


Its yet to be converted and painted in PN color


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## ghazi52



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## Khaqan Humayun

Pakistan Navy Mush make a small size Fast Air Attach Aircraft squadron
We cannot get F-18 even from Qatar Air force, a naval bound Air force under the command to Naval chef is the basic Need today.
JH-7 can fill this gape A Squadron of JH-7 will make our Navy Strong.
Do not retired Rose III A squadron of JH-7 and Marage Rose III will guard our sea.


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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy Z-9EC ASW Helicopter

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## khanasifm

Do we know how many z9er have been order for 054 and babar class one each or 8 ?? Or just additional 4 ??


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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> Do we know how many z9er have been order for 054 and babar class one each or 8 ?? Or just additional 4 ??


I believe they’re going to order the new Z9-D variant, it can carry AShMs. I think 4 would be too low, likely 8. But can’t say for sure.

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## khanasifm

6 z9 were ordered with 4 f22p so assuming 6 with 4, 054 and another 6 for 4 Babar class ?? Best case scenario leading to decommissioning of all older types alluete 3


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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> 6 z9 were ordered with 4 f22p so assuming 6 with 4, 054 and another 6 for 4 Babar class ?? Best case scenario leading to decommissioning of all older types alluete 3


It’s unknown at this stage what Helicopter will be used with Babur class.

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## ghazi52

PMSA Defender!

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> PMSA Defender!
> 
> View attachment 785563


Last time I checked The fleet was double from 2 to 4 not sure current status


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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> 6 z9 were ordered with 4 f22p so assuming 6 with 4, 054 and another 6 for 4 Babar class ?? Best case scenario leading to decommissioning of all older types alluete 3


Any chance of western based helis with Babar class?


iLION12345_1 said:


> It’s unknown at this stage what Helicopter will be used with Babur class.


IMO Leonardo should have solid chances with babar class instead of Chinese


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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani



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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> Last time I checked The fleet was double from 2 to 4 not sure current status


They have 3.

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## khanasifm

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> View attachment 785781




Makes list of top 10 asw heli based on French helicopter Technilogies with over 1000 sold world wide j no it sure if this includes chines licensed copy or not 

If it’s meets the requirement than pn should go with it rather then Introducing another type for few more , any way they know the best and if to remember correctly based on news from babar class it is the heli selected 









The world's ten best anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters


Helicopters with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) systems are widely deployed by naval forces as a means to counter submarines at long ranges.




www.naval-technology.com


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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

How many Z9 PNAA have ?


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## Akh1112

iLION12345_1 said:


> It’s unknown at this stage what Helicopter will be used with Babur class.



confirmed with my friend that the deck CAN accommodate a 10T helo, however, the problem is that it cant accommodate long helicopters.

He was an XO aboard TCG Büyükada, with two visits to Karachi under his belt.

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## TOPGUN

Akh1112 said:


> confirmed with my friend that the deck CAN accommodate a 10T helo, however, the problem is that it cant accommodate long helicopters.
> 
> He was an XO aboard TCG Büyükada, with two visits to Karachi under his belt.



So we are looking at Z-9D's to be put on these ships ?

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## Akh1112

TOPGUN said:


> So we are looking at Z-9D's to be put on these ships ?


dont discount the Merlin just yet, nor should you discount the Wildcat, what i will say is the merlin, if chosen, would be the wiser choice, the Wildcat is more to chase the submarine whereas the merlin is to find it, the wildcat also cannot carry a dipping sonar and sonobouys, it has to be either or.

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## Dreamer.

Akh1112 said:


> dont discount the Merlin just yet, nor should you discount the Wildcat, what i will say is the merlin, if chosen, would be the wiser choice, the Wildcat is more to chase the submarine whereas the merlin is to find it, the wildcat also cannot carry a dipping sonar and sonobouys, it has to be either or.


Don't think the merlin is flying off these ships.

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## TOPGUN

Dreamer. said:


> Don't think the merlin is flying off these ships.



Correct we will most likely see Z-9D's on them lets see inshallah.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Just build a fleet of 40 Navy Helicopters , done

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## Akh1112

Dreamer. said:


> Don't think the merlin is flying off these ships.



oh im not saying it will, what im saying is, x, y, z are possible from one angle, whether they are from another is a different matter

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## Yasser76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just build a fleet of 40 Navy Helicopters , done



No.


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## Windjammer

*Pakistan Navy Sea Eagle Anti Submarine Maritime Patrol Aircraft.*

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## ghazi52

Navy Alouette!

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## farooqbhai007

Looks like the PN's MALE UCAVs are fully operational now and by the looks of it there seems to be a big number having been inducted, the UAVs probably arrived in early 2021

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## Abid123

Pakistan naval aviation needs two squadrons(36) fighter jets for maritime strike.


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## syed_yusuf

farooqbhai007 said:


> Looks like the PN's MALE UCAVs are fully operational now and by the looks of it there seems to be a big number having been inducted, the UAVs probably arrived in early 2021


Which one ?


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## farooqbhai007

syed_yusuf said:


> Which one ?


CH4B

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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just build a fleet of 40 Navy Helicopters , done


39 or 41 wont do ?  
How about any extra for training or loss replacements?

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## Zephyrus

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan naval aviation needs two squadrons(36) fighter jets for maritime strike.


Okay bro; I have forwarded your suggestion to COMNAV  
He says he will look into the matter personally.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

P3C Orion of Pakistan Naval Air Arm..

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy Embraer 190E Lineage 1000.
© Abdullah A. Mughal - Aviation Photography

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## ghazi52

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi exchanging views with Ambassador of Saudi Arabia to Pakistan H.E Mr Nawaf Saeed A. Al Malkiy at Naval Headquarters Islamabad

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## ghazi52

Beauties from Pakistan Naval Air Arm





P3C - Orion

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## khanasifm

cannot compare a 4 ton heli to 8-10 tone heli ofcourse range will be greater for medium heli but 4 ton heli can be utilizedin all kinds of ships like smaller pmsa and navy with just landing platform while medium size heli can only be accommodated by larger ships

z9 can go 100-200 km and pass on targeting Info to mother ship out to 250-300 km against surface ship or sub it can engage at 300
Km with torpedoes outside subs weapons range good enough

lastly it’s airframe is composite which help in sea operation and corrosion resistant plus stealth
Overall poor video except history and weapons and radar /electronic info

ferry range~1000 km and combat 400 plus which is decent for its class


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## Yasser76

It is strange that with many new ships coming we have not at least started training on or induction of another helicopter platform.
Alloutte being retired, Sea Kings too big and old. Only leaves a handful of Z-9s when we now will soon have a fleet of 15 major surface vessels. Very strange that we have no news on a new chopper at all unless we plan on another large induction of Z-9s. but unsure how well these will work with the systems on MILGEM/Yarmook class. I was expecting a AW159 purchase but think engine issue may have stopped this.


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## ghazi52



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## Avid Aviator

somewhere in coastal area


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## Abid123

Scorpiooo said:


> PN need heavyweight and medium weight combinations, meduim for defensive role and heavyweight for offensive role


Need 2 squadrons of the J-16.


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## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> Need 2 squadrons of the J-16.


J-16s cannot be sold without Russian permission. Pakistan will never get them.


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## Abid123

iLION12345_1 said:


> J-16s cannot be sold without Russian permission. Pakistan will never get them.


I know that all the flankers are not for export unless Russia approves. Why can't we try to approach them and see if they give permission? You never know unless you try If they don't approve we can move on


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## Imran Khan

Abid123 said:


> Need 2 squadrons of the J-16.


saady ya aloo waaly ?


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## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> I know that all the flankers are not for export unless Russia approves. Why can't we try to approach them and see if they give permission? You never know unless you try If they don't approve we can move on


Because it’s a simple fact that Russia will not give permission, why would they miss out on flanker sales that could have been made through Russia by letting Pakistan buy them from China? Why do ToT think Pakistan approached Russia when it was interested in SU35 and not China? Because Russia already said no. The Chinese flankers are not and will not be for sale.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> It is strange that with many new ships coming we have not at least started training on or induction of another helicopter platform.
> Alloutte being retired, Sea Kings too big and old. Only leaves a handful of Z-9s when we now will soon have a fleet of 15 major surface vessels. Very strange that we have no news on a new chopper at all unless we plan on another large induction of Z-9s. but unsure how well these will work with the systems on MILGEM/Yarmook class. I was expecting a AW159 purchase but think engine issue may have stopped this.


The Type 054A/Ps will probably get a Z-9 variant. It seems that the PN is using stock Chinese subsystems and weapons, so it makes sense to stick with a Chinese helicopter to simplify integration. The B-Class is further out -- close to the mid-2020s -- so the PN isn't in a rush to equip those. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan inks a deal on the down-low. I think AW159 and NH-90NFH are the preferred options for the B-Class and J-Class.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> J-16s cannot be sold without Russian permission. Pakistan will never get them.


Russian permission can be taken if Chinese are serious to sell and some kickback for Russian to be given ..


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Russian permission can be taken if Chinese are serious to sell and some kickback for Russian to be given ..


I doubt it, Pakistan doesn’t have that kind of influence over China or Russia, nor China over Russia, can we be realistic for once on this forum? Why would Russia let millions of dollars go out the door by letting China export flankers, why did PAF have to approach Russia when it was interested in SU35s? Because we cannot get them from China.


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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> I doubt it, Pakistan doesn’t have that kind of influence over China or Russia, nor China over Russia, can we be realistic for once on this forum? Why would Russia let millions of dollars go out the door by letting China export flankers, why did PAF have to approach Russia when it was interested in SU35s? Because we cannot get them from China.


Then J15 can be path due to non Russian IP and can be used in naval role independent of carrier as F18 is used by some countries


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Reichmarshal

All 10 inducted i suppose........including three commando


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy has inducted 1st Type-54A/P guided missile frigate along with different variants of sea king helicopters in a ceremony held at Karachi dockyard on Monday. President of Pakistan along with country’s naval chief attended the ceremony. Both inductions are conducted under a navy’s modernization process.

Pakistan Navy also inducts 10 Sea king helicopters. As per official stance of Pakistan Navy, these helicopters are gift by brotherly muslim state “Qatar”. Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) gifted 10 Sea king helicopters to Pakistan Navy along a Sea king simulator. These helicopters are inducted No. 111 squadron of Pakistan Naval Air Arm. 111 squadron is already operating few sea king helicopters.

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## Black Bird

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Navy has inducted 1st Type-54A/P guided missile frigate along with different variants of sea king helicopters in a ceremony held at Karachi dockyard on Monday. President of Pakistan along with country’s naval chief attended the ceremony. Both inductions are conducted under a navy’s modernization process.
> 
> Pakistan Navy also inducts 10 Sea king helicopters. As per official stance of Pakistan Navy, these helicopters are gift by brotherly muslim state “Qatar”. Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) gifted 10 Sea king helicopters to Pakistan Navy along a Sea king simulator. These helicopters are inducted No. 111 squadron of Pakistan Naval Air Arm. 111 squadron is already operating few sea king helicopters.


Phely Qatri letter aur ab Qatri helicopter.

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## air marshal



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## Reichmarshal

The color scheme of our sea king fleet looks more akin to a rainbow than any thing else

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## m52k85

Another Mirage story!

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## Imran Khan

Reichmarshal said:


> The color scheme of our sea king fleet looks more akin to a rainbow than any thing else


because we just keep it as memory 

we have so many charity here 
some from USA some from UK some from qatar NOW .


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## HRK

Now after induction of these 10 how many Sea King PN have in total .... ???


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## Imran Khan

HRK said:


> Now after induction of these 10 how many Sea King PN have in total .... ???


they have 10 before including 4 of ex RN . it should be 20 if all of them are active sir . they have 11 but one crashed

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## HRK

Imran Khan said:


> sir


Imran Bhai Sir kha ker Q sharminda ker tay hai ....

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## ghazi52



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## blinder

Induction ceremony shows 4 Qatari Commandos. One Commando Mk.2A (57, darker desert camouflage) and three Commando Mk.3 (50, 54, 56, all lighter -or faded- desert colour scheme).
Given the fact that over the last couple of years (2017-2019, their last appearance) only 5 different ones were seen in Qatar during the yearly parade on 18 December. Chances are that the other 5 (or even 6) are to be used for spares.

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## ghazi52



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## Reichmarshal

blinder said:


> Induction ceremony shows 4 Qatari Commandos. One Commando Mk.2A (57, darker desert camouflage) and three Commando Mk.3 (50, 54, 56, all lighter -or faded- desert colour scheme).
> Given the fact that over the last couple of years (2017-2019, their last appearance) only 5 different ones were seen in Qatar during the yearly parade on 18 December. Chances are that the other 5 (or even 6) are to be used for spares.


If that were the case then the official handout would not have mentioned as the number of sea kings inducted as 10

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## GriffinsRule

Reichmarshal said:


> If that were the case then the official handout would not have mentioned as the number of sea kings inducted as 10


59 was shown last November as well. Im sure we will see the rest over time.
PN already got a few from UK as spare sources and I would not be surprised if we got more airframes to support the fleet as many countries are now retiring these incl. Malaysia

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## blinder

Could be ten a/w indeed, the wording when inducting the former RAF ones was different, bought seven, refurbished three. 
Now its is: inducted ten. 

Thanks for sharing 59, it is a Commando Mk.2A too.
So maybe 50 to 56 Commando Mk.3 and 57 to 59 Commando Mk.2A?

In one of the formation photographs (flying from right to left over the coast line) the bottom one looks like wearing number 51?

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## ghazi52



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## The SC

The governments of Pakistan and Qatar have completed the sale of the entire combat fleet of Westland WS-61 Sea King helicopters of the Qatar Emiri Air Force to the Pakistan Navy, the deal includes a total of 10 helicopters.

Fleet deliveries began in July 2021 and include 5 Mk 3A anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare variants (capable of carrying two Exocet anti-ship missiles) and 5 Mk commando helicopter (personnel/service carrier).

It is noteworthy that the Pakistan Navy was already using a combat fleet of Westland WS-61 Sea King Helicopters and now with the addition of this fleet, the total strength of the Sea King Helicopters of the Pakistan Navy is up to 20 helicopters Moreover, the addition of these helicopters will also help To enhance Pakistan's naval peace efforts in the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean region and the international maritime community.

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## ghazi52



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## syed_yusuf

Is PN inventory of z9ec is 6 or 5 ? If my memory serves well, PN bought 6 z9ec

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> Is PN inventory of z9ec is 6 or 5 ? If my memory serves well, PN bought 6 z9ec


6 indeed

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## Cool_Soldier

I presume , Type 54 P ship will also be equipped with helicopters. I wonder what type these ships will carry. Most likely Z9 D variant.

If my guess is right then another 4-6 helicopters will join soon.

Then Turkish made 4 ships are coming to join in few years, they will carry 4 helicopters too.

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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> 6 indeed


Did we lost any ?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

GriffinsRule said:


> 59 was shown last November as well. Im sure we will see the rest over time.
> PN already got a few from UK as spare sources and I would not be surprised if we got more airframes to support the fleet as many countries are now retiring these incl. Malaysia
> 
> View attachment 810989





The SC said:


> The governments of Pakistan and Qatar have completed the sale of the entire combat fleet of Westland WS-61 Sea King helicopters of the Qatar Emiri Air Force to the Pakistan Navy, the deal includes a total of 10 helicopters.
> 
> Fleet deliveries began in July 2021 and include 5 Mk 3A anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare variants (capable of carrying two Exocet anti-ship missiles) and 5 Mk commando helicopter (personnel/service carrier).
> 
> It is noteworthy that the Pakistan Navy was already using a combat fleet of Westland WS-61 Sea King Helicopters and now with the addition of this fleet, the total strength of the Sea King Helicopters of the Pakistan Navy is up to 20 helicopters Moreover, the addition of these helicopters will also help To enhance Pakistan's naval peace efforts in the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean region and the international maritime community.


​​President approves commissioning of Qatari Sea King Helicopters in Pak Navy- Jan 2022​



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487055944756383748




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487052313453895681



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487052322224103426




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487044808413794305




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487044810825519105

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> ​​President approves commissioning of Qatari Sea King Helicopters in Pak Navy- Jan 2022​
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487055944756383748
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487052313453895681
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487052322224103426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487044808413794305
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487044810825519105


Thank you Qatar 🌹❤️

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> Did we lost any ?


If we have it's not public knowledge. I have seen only one image of #23 but that could just be coincidence.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## aziqbal

I wonder what helicopters PN Is looking at for the 4 x Type 054A/P + 4 x Ada Class 

we need a modern medium sized helicopter from a Western nation defiantly not any more Z9C 

maybe a naval Z18 but its too large and not Z20 

maybe T625?

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## bananarepublic

aziqbal said:


> I wonder what helicopters PN Is looking at for the 4 x Type 054A/P + 4 x Ada Class
> 
> we need a modern medium sized helicopter from a Western nation defiantly not any more Z9C
> 
> maybe a naval Z18 but its too large and not Z20
> 
> maybe T625?


Naval version of AW-139?
Fairly robust, maintainence friendly, commonality with Army and air force


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## aziqbal

bananarepublic said:


> Naval version of AW-139?
> Fairly robust, maintainence friendly, commonality with Army and air force




yes Malaysia has ordered this unit and I hope PN looks at it seriously


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## bananarepublic

aziqbal said:


> yes Malaysia has ordered this unit and I hope PN looks at it seriously


This is just a wish, but maybe the whole of armed forces could push for commercial offsets. We do have a fair amount of AW-139, airforce, army and a couple civilian ones. 
Commercial offsets could be for anything, the main thing should be that we get to enter into the global manufacturing chain.


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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

......





.....

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## ghazi52

.....--




...

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
Over Islamabad....





,.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506610809945874432,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507001612480380935

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

WinterFangs said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507001612480380935


If accurate, then it's not surprising. The PN always liked the S-70i/UH-60R. One platform that can handle everything from shipborne ASW/AShW to CSAR/SAR, general utility, and commando/troop operations. Currently, the Z-20 is the closest to that from a concept standpoint. But I think the Z-20's availability is a serious blocker as the PLAN probably has a massive backorder.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If accurate, then it's not surprising. The PN always liked the S-70i/UH-60R. One platform that can handle everything from shipborne ASW/AShW to CSAR/SAR, general utility, and commando/troop operations. Currently, the Z-20 is the closest to that from a concept standpoint. But I think the Z-20's availability is a serious blocker as the PLAN probably has a massive backorder.


Is this platform naval variant id mature enough?


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.





,.,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.';.





,;.;'

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## MIRauf

WinterFangs said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507001612480380935


If PN is dropping the AW platforms then more then likely talks have already taken place for Z-20 with positive response / feedback. In this scenario, IMHO the odd probably be high for PA to also acquire Z-20 to replace older UH-1s and or PUMA Helis, now depending upon numbers needed could there be the possible chance of local assembly ?

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## WinterFangs

MIRauf said:


> If PN is dropping the AW platforms then more then likely talks have already taken place for Z-20 with positive response / feedback. In this scenario, IMHO the odd probably be high for PA to also acquire Z-20 to replace older UH-1s and or PUMA Helis, now depending upon numbers needed could there be the possible chance of local assembly ?


Very much doubt local assembly.


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## air marshal



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## Bossman

MIRauf said:


> If PN is dropping the AW platforms then more then likely talks have already taken place for Z-20 with positive response / feedback. In this scenario, IMHO the odd probably be high for PA to also acquire Z-20 to replace older UH-1s and or PUMA Helis, now depending upon numbers needed could there be the possible chance of local assembly ?


No UH1 in PA. Bell 412s

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If accurate, then it's not surprising. The PN always liked the S-70i/UH-60R. One platform that can handle everything from shipborne ASW/AShW to CSAR/SAR, general utility, and commando/troop operations. Currently, the Z-20 is the closest to that from a concept standpoint. But I think the Z-20's availability is a serious blocker as the PLAN probably has a massive backorder.



If accurate then I would say this is not a good move. 

1) We will be first non-Chinese user of a relatively unproven platform
2) We will need to now set up a seperate logistics/training pipeline
3) We will also now need to pay for integration and testing of western systems on the Z-20 that can be compatible with MILGEM systems, this will take time and money.

Should of gone for Augusta set up.

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## AMG_12

Yasser76 said:


> If accurate then I would say this is not a good move.
> 
> 1) We will be first non-Chinese user of a relatively unproven platform
> 2) We will need to now set up a seperate logistics/training pipeline
> 3) We will also now need to pay for integration and testing of western systems on the Z-20 that can be compatible with MILGEM systems, this will take time and money.
> 
> Should of gone for Augusta set up.


May I know what do you mean by “unproven”? AFAIK, we select a platform based on the parameters we set. Z-20 is as unproven as a Z-10 but I believe they’ll undergo rigorous testing and if need be, tailored in accordance with our needs, before induction.


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## Yasser76

AMG_12 said:


> May I know what do you mean by “unproven”? AFAIK, we select a platform based on the parameters we set. Z-20 is as unproven as a Z-10 but I believe they’ll undergo rigorous testing and if need be, tailored in accordance with our needs, before induction.



As far as I know the naval variant has not seen widespread operational service unlike the Wildcat. Yes, we will tailor it for our needs but that will cost time and money, the western choppers are ready right now to fit in with the MILGEMs.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Z-20 Seems like a great Platform* , not as sleek as pretty as Augusta
It is a Practical Multi Purpose Chopper

JF17 and J10 were also unproven 12 years ago but now there are 150+ Thunders and 200+ J10 fying world wide with Thousand of proven hours







If Z-20 is not immediately available the Italian Choppers would be ideal choice


The Augusta Choppers are still good for Land based transport recon role

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## Scorpiooo

MIRauf said:


> If PN is dropping the AW platforms then more then likely talks have already taken place for Z-20 with positive response / feedback. In this scenario, IMHO the odd probably be high for PA to also acquire Z-20 to replace older UH-1s and or PUMA Helis, now depending upon numbers needed could there be the possible chance of local assembly ?


China will not give local assembly..



Yasser76 said:


> If accurate then I would say this is not a good move.
> 
> 1) We will be first non-Chinese user of a relatively unproven platform
> 2) We will need to now set up a seperate logistics/training pipeline
> 3) We will also now need to pay for integration and testing of western systems on the Z-20 that can be compatible with MILGEM systems, this will take time and money.
> 
> Should of gone for Augusta set up.


May be cost is the issue and uniform plateform for all forces


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## MIRauf

Bossman said:


> No UH1 in PA. Bell 412s


Thank you, I stand corrected.


----------



## Scorpiooo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Z-20 Seems like a great Platform* , not as sleek as pretty as Augusta
> It is a Practical Multi Purpose Chopper
> 
> JF17 and J10 were also unproven 12 years ago but now there are 150+ Thunders and 200+ J10 fying world wide with Thousand of proven hours
> 
> View attachment 827892
> 
> 
> 
> If Z-20 is not immediately available the Italian Choppers would be ideal choice
> 
> 
> The Augusta Choppers are still good for Land based transport recon role


In coming years we need replacement of Mi 17 as well for PAA as well


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> China will not give local assembly..
> 
> 
> May be cost is the issue and uniform plateform for all forces



Yes, maybe cost but Z-20 looks like a big and expensive machine, it will bring yet ANOTHER helicopter type into Pakistan armed forces though.

I thought it may of been a good idea for all of PAF/PA/PN to standardize on the AW139 as their medium lift chopper but PN has thought otherwise....,

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## Cookie Monster

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, maybe cost but Z-20 looks like a big and expensive machine, it will bring yet ANOTHER helicopter type into Pakistan armed forces though.
> 
> I thought it may of been a good idea for all of PAF/PA/PN to standardize on the AW139 as their medium lift chopper but PN has thought otherwise....,


IMO it is "another type" added into the mix for the short term...in the long run PAF and PA can also standardize on this platform.


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## applesauce

there is definitely a huge backlog for z-20 because of PLA orders. it would be years (unless emergency) before Z-20s could be made available. unless a foreign order is big enough to warrant a new line or two.


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## ghazi52

,.,.,
SA 319B Alouette III






.,.,.,.,.,

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## Yasser76

Cookie Monster said:


> IMO it is "another type" added into the mix for the short term...in the long run PAF and PA can also standardize on this platform.



Yes, but PAF and PA have already selected the AW139 which is same size/catagory


----------



## Cookie Monster

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, but PAF and PA have already selected the AW139 which is same size/catagory


I haven't been caught up on that end...at what stage is that deal...have those been delivered? Or just the deal finalized? Or still in talks?


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## Yasser76

Cookie Monster said:


> I haven't been caught up on that end...at what stage is that deal...have those been delivered? Or just the deal finalized? Or still in talks?




14 AW139s in service with PAF and around the same number in service with Army

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## AMG_12

Yasser76 said:


> 14 AW139s in service with PAF and around the same number in service with Army


Can the AW-139 be equipped for naval ops?


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## Yasser76

AMG_12 said:


> Can the AW-139 be equipped for naval ops?



Not sure if August have developed such a version

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## Great Janjua

IMHO I see Pakistan sticking to the Z9EC ASW Helicopters for a good while due to few options that are comparable in configuration/role and are sanction free on the market, maybe in the future Z-20 ASW variant will be considered but for now, hardly any are available without Americans poking in their nose.

For the Westland Seakings, the best bet would be the Augusta Westland 101 which is sanctions free but comes at a high price tag.

The AW159 Wildcat has the whole American engine issue but that can be offset if there is a comparable Canada Pratt and Whitney option available.

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## ghazi52

.-.-.-.-.-.-





.-..-.-.-.-.-.-.-

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## Michel Niesten

AMG_12 said:


> Can the AW-139 be equipped for naval ops?


Yes they can. Cyprus uses them also for naval ops, so does Malta. Also several Italian military organizations use them (Guardia Finanza, Guardia Costiera, Air Force), for operations over water.

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## GriffinsRule

Michel Niesten said:


> Yes they can. Cyprus uses them also for naval ops, so does Malta. Also several Italian military organizations use them (Guardia Finanza, Guardia Costiera, Air Force), for operations over water.


Along with Malaysian Navy now








Royal Malaysian Navy to Take Delivery of AW139 Maritime Utility Helicopter (MUH) - Italian Defence Technologies


Malaysian defense blog Malaysia Defence reported that the three Royal Malaysian Navy (Tentera Laut Diraja Malaysia,…




www.italiandefencetechnologies.com












Royal Malaysian Navy to Receive 3 Leonardo AW139 Helicopters


The Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) is expected to receive three (3) new Maritime Operations Helicopter (MOH), which are planned to ...




militaryleak.com

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.




,..,.

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## ghazi52

,,.,.




,.,..,.,

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
The Pakistan Naval Arm ever since its creation in September 1975 with the commissioning of its home base PNS Mehran, has been a vital part of Pakistan’s naval strategy. 

This force is dominated by the PN helicopter fleet, and these helicopters have played a major role in the domains of Anti Submarine and Anti Surface Warfare (ASW & ASuW), maritime patrolling and overall support of the surface fleet. The helicopters with which we are familiar with today, a lot of them have been serving Pakistan as long as up to 47 years now! 

These are as given below:
~ Westland Sea king: Being part of the Naval air arms’ 111 ‘Sharks’ squadron since 1975, this helicopter is the linchpin of the naval air arm’s operational capabilities. Its main roles are Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti Surface Warfare (ASuW) operations. Besides that it plays a pivotal role in visit, board, search and seizure (VBSS), Para drop, VVIP/VIP passenger ferry, utility, troop transfer and Medical Evacuation (MEDVAC) duties. 

For ASuW operation the helicopter has been armed with AM 39 Exocet Anti-Ship Missiles, while for ASW operations it can be armed with Mk 46 torpedoes or depth charges.

Since its inception in the 111 Squadron, the helicopter has been at the centre-point of PN operations: be it a multi-national exercise e.g AMAN, KAKADU or mass relief operations such as the earthquake of 2005, flood relief operations in Punjab and Sindh in 2010 and 2011, the 111 squadron has always been at the forefront of HADR (Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief) ops. This squadron has the unique capability to undertake nighttime naval Search and Rescue (SAR).

The squadron is routinely tasked at short notices to undertake challenging and risk-prone helicopter operations. At present, the squadron has up to 11 Westland Sea King Helicopters. Avionics suite of PN Sea Kings is being upgraded to enhance its 
sensors capabilities. 

~ Aérospatiale SA 316 Alouette III: In 1977 four Alouette III helicopters were acquired from France, leading to the naval air arm’s 333 squadron. Later in 1982 two more Alouette helicopters were added, after being upgraded with radars. In 2008, 
2 more SA 316B's Alouettes got added with upgraded instruments. Currently there are reportedly between 5-7 of these helicopters in active service with PN in air arms. The helicopter plays a key role in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), being armed with light torpedoes and Search and Rescue (SAR). The squadron is routinely tasked at short notices to undertake challenging and risk-prone helicopter operations. At present, the squadron has up to 11 Westland Sea King Helicopters. Avionics suite of PN Sea Kings is being upgraded to enhance its sensors capabilities. 

~ Aérospatiale SA 316 Alouette III: In 1977 four Alouette III helicopters were acquired from France, leading to the naval air arm’s 333 squadron. Later in 1982 two more Alouette helicopters were added, after being upgraded with radars. In 2008, 2 more SA 316B's Alouettes got added with upgraded instruments. Currently there are reportedly between 5-7 of these helicopters in active service with PN in air arms. The helicopter plays a key role in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), being armed with light torpedoes and depth charges. But with time, these helicopters are becoming obsolete and in dire need of replacement.

~ Harbin Z-9EC: Pakistan received 6 Harbin Z-9EC helicopters from China in 2009, forming the No. 222 squadron of the naval air arm. Currently being the most modern Helicopter in PN, it is equipped with Radar, Sonar and Electronic Support Measures (ESM). The primary roles assigned are ASW and Reconnaissance along with secondary roles such as SAR, MEDEVAC, Command, Liaison and Training etc. The Helicopter can be armed with light-weight laser guided missile, torpedoes and depth charges.

~ Westland Lynx: In 1994 Pakistan brought 3 ex Royal Navy Lynx helicopters from UK and inducted in 222 squadron. But saw short service with PN going only over a decade. by 2008-09 the Lynx had been already got grounded ...

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## Raja Porus

Can anyone provide list of all the fixed wing aircraft being operated as well as of future acquisitions.


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## Mahabahu kaunteya

Any news of super sultan ?


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## ghazi52

,.,..
PN Current Fleet ASW : 
111 ASW SQUADRON 19 x Westland Sea Kings 
222 ASW SQUADRON 6 x Z9Cs 
333 ASW SQUADRON 7 x SA-319 Aérospatiale Alouette III -
Primary roles assigned are ASW / Recon. -Sec role - 
SAR, MEDEVAC, Command, Liaison, Training

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## Signalian

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Yes, I felt the need very much.


This goes multi pronged. The needs can be laid down;

1. Provide air cover to PN surface and aerial assets.
2. Air strikes against enemy surface combatants.
3. Provide air support to Marines. 
4. CAP responsibility over waters held by PN not PAF. This frees up PAF from a primary role in a major theater of battle. 

However, then how would PN employ fighter jets along with other Maritime aircraft like ATR in war scenario.

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> This goes multi pronged. The needs can be laid down;
> 
> 1. Provide air cover to PN surface and aerial assets.
> 2. Air strikes against enemy surface combatants.
> 3. Provide air support to Marines.
> 4. CAP responsibility over waters held by PN not PAF. This frees up PAF from a primary role in a major theater of battle.
> 
> However, then how would PN employ fighter jets along with other Maritime aircraft like ATR in war scenario.


After the sim.


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## ghazi52

Submarine Buster ...

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535711794932637699

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## HRK

air marshal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535711794932637699


so what is the status all 3 are now converted into MPA ???


----------



## Tipu7

HRK said:


> so what is the status all 3 are now converted into MPA ???


Three ATR-72s have been converted into RAS-72s. (Serials 77,78,79)

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Tipu7 said:


> Three ATR-72s have been converted into RAS-72s. (Serials 77,78,79)


Plan for any others ??? or 3 are enough in this category . Thanks .


----------



## air marshal



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## Windjammer

Pakistan Naval Aviation Z-9 being launched from a PN Ship.

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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Naval Aviation Z-9 being launched from a PN Ship.
> 
> View attachment 856423


This is not a pn ship

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## Great Janjua

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Naval Aviation Z-9 being launched from a PN Ship.
> 
> View attachment 856423


That's a japanese naval ship.


----------



## Windjammer

Great Janjua said:


> That's a japanese naval ship.





syed_yusuf said:


> This is not a pn ship


Well the Chopper is certainly from PNA. 
I Just assumed it must be a PN Ship.

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan navy ATR 72-500 (Serial# 77) now modified as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) is almost ready to be delivered. The aircraft photographed at Mönchengladbach Airport in Germany on June 9, 2022.
This particular aircraft had arrived in Germany on June 27, 2020, for it's modification work.

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## Super Falcon

Why can't we go for twin engine jets which are preferred almost for every naval operations I did not seen any one using single engine jets for naval missions


Why can't we change our stupid policy of single engine jets

Mig 35 will be good option Russia will sell them easily to market them for others

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## syed_yusuf

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan navy ATR 72-500 (Serial# 77) now modified as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) is almost ready to be delivered. The aircraft photographed at Mönchengladbach Airport in Germany on June 9, 2022.
> This particular aircraft had arrived in Germany on June 27, 2020, for it's modification work.
> View attachment 857863


Any more modifications of new atr 72 in pipeline because these 3 ?


----------



## arslank03

Some new information on Sea Sultan.

I have been doing some digging, i think ive cracked it.

Contrary to my prior concerns, Wonderboom airport IS capable of housing and supporting the Lineage 1000E.

This is where Paramount Group's main facility is.

Now, more importantly,

A gulf carrier, Falcon Aviation Services seemingly has retired or gotten rid of two Lineage 1000E, Registrations:
A6-HHS
A6-IGT- mistake, this was sold elsewhere. That means one is still missing.

A6-HHS was delivered to Wonderboom airport on the second of June this year. A6-IGT has not flown this year, so is likely stored until its ferry flight to wonderboom.

Seems like the conversions have/are to begin very soon, here is A6-HHS at Wonderboom, we should be able to see them on satellite imagery the next time too.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD

Thanks,

Arslan/@isipuppet.

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## khail007

rgfegasrg said:


> Some new information on Sea Sultan.
> 
> I have been doing some digging, i think ive cracked it.
> 
> Contrary to my prior concerns, Wonderboom airport IS capable of housing and supporting the Lineage 1000E.
> 
> This is where Paramount Group's main facility is.
> 
> Now, more importantly,
> 
> A gulf carrier, Falcon Aviation Services seemingly has retired or gotten rid of two Lineage 1000E, Registrations:
> A6-HHS
> A6-IGT- mistake, this was sold elsewhere. That means one is still missing.
> 
> A6-HHS was delivered to Wonderboom airport on the second of June this year. A6-IGT has not flown this year, so is likely stored until its ferry flight to wonderboom.
> 
> Seems like the conversions have/are to begin very soon, here is A6-HHS at Wonderboom, we should be able to see them on satellite imagery the next time too.
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arslan/@isipuppet.



The aircrafts starting registration from 'A6' are from UAE.

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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> Why can't we go for twin engine jets which are preferred almost for every naval operations I did not seen any one using single engine jets for naval missions
> 
> 
> Why can't we change our stupid policy of single engine jets
> 
> Mig 35 will be good option Russia will sell them easily to market them for others


Imf waly dhundh rahy hain humy pesy wasoolny ke liye


----------



## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Well the Chopper is certainly from PNA.
> I Just assumed it must be a PN Ship.


Sea Sparrow launcher in the aft .....


----------



## GriffinsRule

Not directly related to PN but shows how expensive new naval helicopters might turn out to be, especially the NH90. Article from Flight Int.

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## arslank03

GriffinsRule said:


> Not directly related to PN but shows how expensive new naval helicopters might turn out to be, especially the NH90. Article from Flight Int.
> 
> View attachment 858247




NH90 been littered with problems forever, its a poor helicopter


----------



## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543565701553831936












Two more Embraer Lineage 1000 procured for Sea Sultan - Asian ThinkTank


Pakistan has secured two more airframes of the Embraer Lineage 1000 aircraft for the Sea Sultan program. The airframes are A6-HHS (built 2010), and the other is unknown. The aircraft were owned by Falcon Aviation Services, Abu Dhabi. The aircraft were flown after purchase to Johannesburg, South...




asianthinktank.com

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545058470323376128



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539975846701674501



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535702084657487872



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535711794932637699




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543894313637142535

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Cool_Soldier

IT will be comparable to US P8


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## Metal 0-1

Cool_Soldier said:


> IT will be comparable to US P8


Yeah sure thing


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## Imran Khan

A6-HHS

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## khail007

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 860090
> 
> 
> 
> A6-HHS
> 
> View attachment 860091



This aircraft's registration shows it belongs to UAE.


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## Imran Khan

khail007 said:


> This aircraft's registration shows it belongs to UAE.


it was owned by falcon aviation services UAE sir

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## khail007

Imran Khan said:


> it was owned by falcon aviation services UAE sir



Sir G,
Got it.

Central Jets
>
Private Jets
>
A6-HHS
Description​This *Lineage 1000 *aircraft flies under the tail number *A6-HHS*. Operated by Falcon Aviation Services, it was built in 2010 by Embraer as part of their Lineage 1000 series.
*A6-HHS *is based in OMAD and can carry up to 19 passengers.
Photos​


























1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
Layout​




Specifications​
Year built: 2010
Manufacturer: Embraer
Model: Lineage 1000

Tail number: A6-HHS
Operator: Falcon Aviation Services
Homebase: OMAD
Max Pax: 19






A6-HHS Lineage 1000 — Central Jets







centraljets.com

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## ghazi52

..,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1390793091407928

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Zulfiquar (F-251)..

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## ghazi52

Flood relief activities..

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## ghazi52

Relief duties...

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## Michel Niesten

It seems ATR-72 nr 77 will depart Mönchengladbach tomorrow back to Pakistan, after conversion to RAS-72 Sea Eagle.

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## syed_yusuf

Michel Niesten said:


> It seems ATR-72 nr 77 will depart Mönchengladbach tomorrow back to Pakistan, after conversion to RAS-72 Sea Eagle.


3rd one right?


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## Michel Niesten

syed_yusuf said:


> 3rd one right?


I have seen 4 ATR’s for Pakistan at Mönchengladbach. Nr 77, 78, 79 have been converted to Sea Eagle, the 4th (nr 76) is a standard ATR-72 I think

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## Great Janjua

Michel Niesten said:


> I have seen 4 ATR’s for Pakistan at Mönchengladbach. Nr 77, 78, 79 have been converted to Sea Eagle, the 4th (nr 76) is a standard ATR-72 I think


The 4th one will probably also be converted anyway thanks for the heads-up.

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## Yasser76

I like the strategy here of using Sea Eagles for shorty range and light work so sparing hours for long range and heavy work for the Orion/Sea Sultan crews. We do not need a massive and expensive MPA to interdict smugglers or for search and rescue

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> I like the strategy here of using Sea Eagles for shorty range and light work so sparing hours for long range and heavy work for the Orion/Sea Sultan crews. We do not need a massive and expensive MPA to interdict smugglers or for search and rescue


Are 3 enough or do you think we will need more than3.
A


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## HRK

araz said:


> Are 3 enough or do you think we will need more than3.
> A


these 3 Sea Eagles are in addition of 6 or 7 P-3C of PN so fleet of *9 or 10 *anti-submarine capable LRMPA aircraft for the *coastline of 1,100 km only* should be sufficient at least for this decade, meanwhile Sea Sultan programme is expected to be operationally ready & deployed till then.

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## time pass

araz said:


> Are 3 enough or do you think we will need more than3.
> A


Below is FYI, posted on 16th JUL'22 ....




time pass said:


> I believe PN has 8 ATR 72 aircraft & 4th unit is already in the conversion phase to MPA in Germany, However, it's not known if PN will convert the remaining 4 units to MPA configuration too.

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## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> these 3 Sea Eagles are in addition of 6 or 7 P-3C of PN so fleet of *9 or 10 *anti-submarine capable LRMPA aircraft for the *coastline of 1,100 km only* should be sufficient at least for this decade, meanwhile Sea Sultan programme is expected to be operationally ready & deployed till then.


First 2 Sea Sultan already under conversion, should be delivered next year.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Michel Niesten said:


> It seems ATR-72 nr 77 will depart Mönchengladbach tomorrow back to Pakistan, after conversion to RAS-72 Sea Eagle.





syed_yusuf said:


> 3rd one right?





Great Janjua said:


> The 4th one will probably also be converted anyway thanks for the heads-up.





araz said:


> Are 3 enough or do you think we will need more than3.
> A





HRK said:


> these 3 Sea Eagles are in addition of 6 or 7 P-3C of PN so fleet of *9 or 10 *anti-submarine capable LRMPA aircraft for the *coastline of 1,100 km only* should be sufficient at least for this decade, meanwhile Sea Sultan programme is expected to be operationally ready & deployed till then.





Yasser76 said:


> I like the strategy here of using Sea Eagles for shorty range and light work so sparing hours for long range and heavy work for the Orion/Sea Sultan crews. We do not need a massive and expensive MPA to interdict smugglers or for search and rescue





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555505328074248194

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> First 2 Sea Sultan already under conversion, should be delivered next year.


great news ....


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## araz

HRK said:


> these 3 Sea Eagles are in addition of 6 or 7 P-3C of PN so fleet of *9 or 10 *anti-submarine capable LRMPA aircraft for the *coastline of 1,100 km only* should be sufficient at least for this decade, meanwhile Sea Sultan programme is expected to be operationally ready & deployed till then.


Thank you for your response. I asked the question as there has been previous discussion about having 6 to 8 units which were shorter range for more routine day to day surveillance reserving the heavier long range veraions( 10 per previous plans) for longer range activities. It seems this has been the way PN has acted previously as well with the Fokkers and Atlantiques reserving the P3s for longer range activity.
PN's requirements will depend on availability of funds as always. 
A



time pass said:


> Below is FYI, posted on 16th JUL'22 ....


Thank you for your response.
Regards
A

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Naval Air Arm's No. 28 MS Sqn. equipped with Embraer E190-1000 Lineage Long Range Maritime Patrolling Aircraft (LRMPA).

No. 28 Sqn. is stationed at PNS Mehran, KHI. Pakistan Navy has recently inducted Embraer E190 aircraft to replace Lockheed Martin P3C Orion. 








List of Embraer E190 procured by PN:

▪️ Embraer E190-1000 Lineage [ex- B-3203]
▪️ Embraer E190-1000 Lineage [A6-HHS]
▪️ Embraer E190-1000 Lineage [M-AKKU]

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## HRK

araz said:


> I asked the question as there has been previous discussion about having 6 to 8 units which were shorter range for more routine day to day surveillance reserving the heavier long range veraions( 10 per previous plans) for longer range activities.


As far as I know PN only has 4 ATR-72 out of which 3 are converted as Sea Eagle LRMPA.

And yes you are right previously there was a discussion about the need for more airframe for near shore MPA role but I don't think PN will increase the size of its current fleet of ATR-72 in immediate future.

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## Gripen9

PN should look at augmenting the MPAs with SAR equipped Akinci MALE drones. You can keep 3 aloft 24/7 to cover your whole EEZ.
Fleet of 12-15 should be feasible.

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## time pass

HRK said:


> As far as I know PN only has 4 ATR-72 out of which 3 are converted as Sea Eagle LRMPA.
> 
> And yes you are right previously there was a discussion about the need for more airframe for near shore MPA role but I don't think PN will increase the size of its current fleet of ATR-72 in immediate future.



According to estimates, PN owns 8 ATR 72 aircraft, numbered 72 through 79, with the fourth aircraft, #76, already in Germany for MPA modification.

It is unknown if PN will also change the configuration of the other 4 units to MPA.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ATR 72-500 (serial# 77) after getting modified as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) expected to leave Germany today for delivery flight to Pakistan.

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## Michel Niesten

time pass said:


> According to estimates, PN owns 8 ATR 72 aircraft, numbered 72 through 79, with the fourth aircraft, #76, already in Germany for MPA modification.
> 
> It is unknown if PN will also change the configuration of the other 4 units to MPA.


76 is not in Germany.


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## HRK

time pass said:


> According to estimates, PN owns 8 ATR 72 aircraft, numbered 72 through 79, with the fourth aircraft, #76, already in Germany for MPA modification.
> 
> It is unknown if PN will also change the configuration of the other 4 units to MPA.


plz post reliable source related to 8 ATR-72 in PN inventory .....


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## time pass

Michel Niesten said:


> 76 is not in Germany.



Do you have any doubts about the below post you made?



Michel Niesten said:


> I have seen 4 ATR’s for Pakistan at Mönchengladbach. Nr 77, 78, 79 have been converted to Sea Eagle, the 4th (nr 76) is a standard ATR-72 I think


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## Michel Niesten

time pass said:


> Do you have any doubts about the below post you made?


No, all 4 ATR have been in Germany, but all are back in Pakistan now. The 76 was not converted to MPA. It wasn’t even painted when it went from Mönchengladbach to Pakistan. 

So, no Pakistan ATR in Mönchengladbach at this moment.

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## HRK



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## AMG_12

HRK said:


> View attachment 870644


A little rusty, do we have the exact count of P3C in PN inventory?


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## HRK

AMG_12 said:


> A little rusty, do we have the exact count of P3C in PN inventory?


7 as per Alan Warnes

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## monitor

Naval Air Arm Z-9EC anti-submarine helicopter

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## ghazi52

..,.,

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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

Flood Relief...

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## Zephyrus

Sea Sultan has been painted in all white, 
credits: Syed Zohaib Zaidi.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Pakistan Navy's ATR 72-500 (Serial Number 77) modified in #
Germany as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nice conversion Sultan is looking great

The ATR platform while it is great, we have them these ATR planes have very bad track record
It is best the equipment inside is moved into new platform which have 2 Engines each side of wing like the Orion 

The ATR should have been retired after its track history was revealed

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## Reichmarshal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Nice conversion Sultan is looking great
> 
> The ATR platform while it is great, we have them these ATR planes have very bad track record
> It is best the equipment inside is moved into new platform which have 2 Engines each side of wing like the Orion
> 
> The ATR should have been retired after its track history was revealed
> 
> View attachment 880559


Nothing wrong with the atr, all accidents/ crash have been down to human error.... engineers n pilots both at fault

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

China has a alternative platform to Orions , appears to be ideal choice then ATR platform


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## Zephyrus

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Nice conversion Sultan is looking great
> 
> The ATR platform while it is great, we have them these ATR planes have very bad track record
> It is best the equipment inside is moved into new platform which have 2 Engines each side of wing like the Orion
> 
> The ATR should have been retired after its track history was revealed
> 
> View attachment 880559


only the paint has been changed it hasn't been converted yet.
please don't let a couple of freak accidents skew your perceptions regarding the ATR; it is very a stable and a very efficient platform.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> China has a alternative platform to Orions , appears to be ideal choice then ATR platform


ATRs aren't analogous to the Orions, they are mere patrol aircraft; Orion is a dedicated anti surface/anti submmarine platform in addition to being much larger than the Sea Eagle. The Sea Sultan is what we are going to replace the orions with.
Plus if PN wanted to the take the chinese route WRT its MPA we would've have seen the Sea Sultan.

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## Elijah Manson

La pessima gestione cinese degli elicotteri pakistani


Il Pakistan ha acquistato nel 2006 gli elicotteri cinesi Z-9EC, una variante ASW specificatamente prodotta per la l’Aviazione di Marina pakistana ed equipaggiata con un radar a compressione di impulsi, sonar a bassa frequenza, ricevitore di allarme radar e sistema di navigazione doppler. Lo...




www.difesaonline.it




According to the source, the Pakistan Navy criticizes Chinese-made helicopters for maintenance issues. It reports on the faulty processing in the logistics of spare parts for the helicopters that the country imported from China.


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## Zephyrus

Elijah Manson said:


> La pessima gestione cinese degli elicotteri pakistani
> 
> 
> Il Pakistan ha acquistato nel 2006 gli elicotteri cinesi Z-9EC, una variante ASW specificatamente prodotta per la l’Aviazione di Marina pakistana ed equipaggiata con un radar a compressione di impulsi, sonar a bassa frequenza, ricevitore di allarme radar e sistema di navigazione doppler. Lo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.difesaonline.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the source, the Pakistan Navy criticizes Chinese-made helicopters for maintenance issues. It reports on the faulty processing in the logistics of spare parts for the helicopters that the country imported from China.


This is a lie being propagated by our neighbors.
A couple of days ago they were citing similar 'issues' with our F22Ps

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## Elijah Manson

Zephyrus said:


> This is a lie being propagated by our neighbors.
> A couple of days ago they were citing similar 'issues' with our F22Ps


I imagine. Following the news, one sees something totally different from this statement.


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## Reichmarshal

But the truth is that the f 22 has left a lot to be desired....having said that at their time of induction it was a massive boast n leap in capability for our surface fleet.
But still it can brought to par with an mlu


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## Tank131

Reichmarshal said:


> But the truth is that the f 22 has left a lot to be desired....having said that at their time of induction it was a massive boast n leap in capability for our surface fleet.
> But still it can brought to par with an mlu


We quickly forget that before the F-22P, PN had janky old Type-21s who were sooo past their prime they were essentially sitting ducks in aby conflict with other navys. So the F-22P while not perfect was (as you said) a huge step up for PN. 

The major flaw for the F-22P with respect to the design and time of delivery was that no thought was given to the upgradability of the vessel (given it was bought to plug wide holes on the cheap). I still think it has enough space for a 12-16 cell vls for Albatross NG (the current platform under FM-90 would need removed and probably the vls may need to sit partially above the deck similar to the VLS in Sa'ar 5 or type 23 frigates, but i thinknit would be doable. If too expensive, replacing FM90 with 24 cell FL-3000N is reasonable. Upgrading the radars Smart S mk ii and the CMS with Genesis Advent would also help. Then replace C-802 with 6 CM-302

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## CLUMSY

Do air launched cruise missiles used by PAF have a sea skimming capability?


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## air marshal



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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571461695322689536

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571665887089905665

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568819094715088897

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563726503132684289

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567003120516964353


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575377491404984322


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## ghazi52

,..,,

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,,
> View attachment 883715



Looks very similar to the Sea Eagle interms of equipment fit - with i guess the differentiator being station-time due to a larger airframe. That may well be the point i guess.


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## Tank131

Ali_Baba said:


> Looks very similar to the Sea Eagle interms of equipment fit - with i guess the differentiator being station-time due to a larger airframe. That may well be the point i guess.


The Sea Eagle is described as a MPA but it is definitely capable in Anti-submarine warfare. Going away are the days when MAD were really super important. The modern acoustic sensing suites make them redundant. That is why P-8s dont have them either (although Indias P-8I have them at special requests). That said with their advanced Acoustic suits and Maritime AESA radars, the sea sultan and sea eagle are really set up similarly to P-8 and should be quite capable sub hunters. 

Do we know whether or not the sea sultans will be able to carry AShM? These carrying air launched Babur/Harba or even naval versions of would be very helpful. They would be even more helpful if they could launch CM-400 or CM-302/YJ-12.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Pakistani Naval special forces (SSGN) practicing fast-roping on a beach in Karachi,

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## Super Falcon

Tank131 said:


> The Sea Eagle is described as a MPA but it is definitely capable in Anti-submarine warfare. Going away are the days when MAD were really super important. The modern acoustic sensing suites make them redundant. That is why P-8s dont have them either (although Indias P-8I have them at special requests). That said with their advanced Acoustic suits and Maritime AESA radars, the sea sultan and sea eagle are really set up similarly to P-8 and should be quite capable sub hunters.
> 
> Do we know whether or not the sea sultans will be able to carry AShM? These carrying air launched Babur/Harba or even naval versions of would be very helpful. They would be even more helpful if they could launch CM-400 or CM-302/YJ-12.


I feel Pakistan must go for Swordfish system atleast half of the platforms of lineage 1000 along side sea eagle

Sea eagle and sword fish will complement each other and these swordfish from Swdeen will have better data sharing with Airforce's Saab erieye awacs

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## Tank131

Super Falcon said:


> I feel Pakistan must go for Swordfish system atleast half of the platforms of lineage 1000 along side sea eagle
> 
> Sea eagle and sword fish will complement each other and these swordfish from Swdeen will have better data sharing with Airforce's Saab erieye awacs


Why would they go for swordfish? The swordfish literally has similar to comparable systems as sea eagle and sea sultan. The only difference is the sensors on one will be ericcson whereas the other are Leonardo. Why would they share better info with erieye? You are assuming this because they have the same manufacturer? If the sea eagle and sea sultan have same or comparable data link they will share info exactoy as effectively as the swordfish. You are asking for a redundant system which by all aspect is very similar to sea eagles.

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## Super Falcon

Tank131 said:


> Why would they go for swordfish? The swordfish literally has similar to comparable systems as sea eagle and sea sultan. The only difference is the sensors on one will be ericcson whereas the other are Leonardo. Why would they share better info with erieye? You are assuming this because they have the same manufacturer? If the sea eagle and sea sultan have same or comparable data link they will share info exactoy as effectively as the swordfish. You are asking for a redundant system which by all aspect is very similar to sea eagles.


Bro I don't think swordfish is superior to Leonardo just do some research


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## ghazi52

.,,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## air marshal



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## arslank03

Super Falcon said:


> Bro I don't think swordfish is superior to Leonardo just do some research





Tank131 said:


> Why would they go for swordfish? The swordfish literally has similar to comparable systems as sea eagle and sea sultan. The only difference is the sensors on one will be ericcson whereas the other are Leonardo. Why would they share better info with erieye? You are assuming this because they have the same manufacturer? If the sea eagle and sea sultan have same or comparable data link they will share info exactoy as effectively as the swordfish. You are asking for a redundant system which by all aspect is very similar to sea eagles.




swordfish uses cots sensors mainly from leonardo

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## Tank131

arslank03 said:


> swordfish uses cots sensors mainly from leonardo


Exactly, so why do they need to get swordfish. They already have the similar capabilities in Sea Eagle

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## Super Falcon

Atr 72 will be integrated with light weight German torpedos


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## arslank03

Super Falcon said:


> Atr 72 will be integrated with light weight German torpedos


no it wont, they will use a244s. Germany themselves use mk54...


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## ghazi52

ATR ...


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## Super Falcon

These aircraft should be bought they can perform missions in most difficult weather's at sea atleast 3 of these will do world of good for PN

Indian navy was also and is interested in Japanese similar type aircraft


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## arslank03

Super Falcon said:


> These aircraft should be bought they can perform missions in most difficult weather's at sea atleast 3 of these will do world of good for PN
> 
> Indian navy was also and is interested in Japanese similar type aircraft



and what good will they do


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## Super Falcon

arslank03 said:


> and what good will they do


Firefighting mission at sea for naval vessels search and rescue where halos cannot do in storms at sea survelience letting mines medical evacuations


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## ghazi52

,..,

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## ghazi52

,..,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587813089457876992

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## ghazi52

,.,..,

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## ghazi52

At Karachi Harbor ..

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Super Falcon

Due to vertical launch these small drones will be useful for sea survelience with these cheap drones


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## ghazi52

.,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=664008631976061


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,
*PHOTO DATE... Nov 14, 2022*​*UPLOADED... Nov 29, 2022*​

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## Farhan Ahmed Khan

*IDEAS 2022*


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## ghazi52

,..,


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
A Pakistan Naval Air Arm WS-61 Sea King helicopter carrying an Exocet AM-39 anti-ship missile .

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## Farhan Ahmed Khan



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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Navy Z-9ECs Helicopters ....

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## ghazi52

.,.,,

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1607884239206227970

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## ghazi52

Landing on a ship..

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## Super Falcon

We need alpin or A 500 Quad copters for air surveillance and combat roles these are very light UAVs can be used on lighter frigates and Corvette of pak navy and if possible they can be launched sea shores as well in Kutch borders


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## ghazi52

.,.,
The Westland Lynx is a British multi-purpose military helicopter designed and built by Westland Helicopters at its factory in Yeovil. Originally intended as a utility craft for both civil and naval usage, military interest led to the development of both battlefield and naval variants, which went into operational usage in 1977 and were later adopted by the armed forces of over a dozen nations, where it primarily serves in the battlefield utility, anti armour, search and rescue (SAR) anti submarine warfare roles. In 1986 a modified Lynx broke the airspeed record for helicopters, which still stands today. The helicopter is now produced and marketed by Agusta Westland.

3 Lynx Mk.3 were used by Pakistan Navy for anti-ship / anti-submarine / transport duties. These aircraft were retired from service in 2003.

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## ghazi52

Sea King and Naval SSG boat making an approach towards PNS Zulfiqar.


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
Aérospatiale Alouette III from Pakistan Navy during Coastal Security Exercise, “Tahaffuz-e-Sahil” at Karachi Port Complex to check the efficacy of security mechanism in place at Karachi Port and associated infrastructure against any Maritime terrorist threat.


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