# Chinese Aero Engine information thread



## shuttler

CCTV News today says due to the popularity of FC-01 or JF-17 in the Singaporean Airshow, the problem of avoiding interrupted supply of the Russian Engine Klimov RD-93 can be solved by replacing it with more powerful Chinese WS-13 within the next 2 years.

This really helps the exports of this fabulous value-for-money fighter jet!

Some of our members may post the news here if they have also seen the report! I am finding the link!

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## UKBengali

Not really a surprise as this was bound to happen soon.

What I am interested in is whether the engine would be WS-13A which is rated at 22,000 Ibs.

A JF-17 Block 3 that has AESA radar and the WS-13A engine would give the Gripen NG a good fight.

At half the cost of the Gripen NG,it could be a very good choice for many countries and export sales could easily reach many hundreds.

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## shuttler

UKBengali said:


> Not really a surprise as this was bound to happen soon.
> 
> What I am interested in is whether the engine would be WS-13A which is rated at 22,000 Ibs.
> 
> A JF-17 Block 3 that has AESA radar and the WS-13A engine would give the Gripen NG a good fight.
> 
> At half the cost of the Gripen NG,it could be a very good choice for many countries and export sales could easily reach many hundreds.



But this time around it was announced with a specified time!

The news has said that the supply of RD-93 is not stable due to some reasons and we have been talking to the Russians about upgrading RD-93 or replacing it with more powerful engines
but to no avail. So in spite of the current priority of development of engines (through the internet) to fit fighter jets like J-1B, J-20, J-15 ...etc the mentioning of fitting WS-13 to FC-01 / JF-17 is a welcoming news!

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## BDforever

shuttler said:


> CCTV News today says due to the popularity of FC-01 or JF-17 in the Singaporean Airshow, the problem of avoiding interrupted supply of the Russian Engine Klimov RD-93 can be solved by replacing it with more powerful Chinese WS-13 within the next 2 years.
> 
> This really helps the exports of this fabulous value-for-money fighter jet!
> 
> Some of our members may post the news here if they have also seen the report! I am finding the link!


bangladesh will be first customer

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## Luftwaffe

shuttler said:


> CCTV News today says due to the popularity of FC-01 or JF-17 in the Singaporean Airshow, the problem of avoiding interrupted supply of the Russian Engine Klimov RD-93 can be solved by replacing it with more powerful Chinese WS-13 within the next 2 years.
> 
> This really helps the exports of this fabulous value-for-money fighter jet!
> 
> Some of our members may post the news here if they have also seen the report! I am finding the link!


 
FC-1 is Singapore Air Show? Any pics.

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## EyanKhan

Mubarak ho Mubarak ho (tahir ul qadri uncle style)

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> bangladesh will be first customer


 
Bangladesh is getting lca according to some ha..I don't think bangladesh is going for FC-1 i think YAK-130/133 and later on SU-30/Mig-29 variants would be the future, even J-10 seems impossible.

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## siegecrossbow

shuttler said:


> CCTV News today says due to the popularity of FC-01 or JF-17 in the Singaporean Airshow, the problem of avoiding interrupted supply of the Russian Engine Klimov RD-93 can be solved by replacing it with more powerful Chinese WS-13 within the next 2 years.
> 
> This really helps the exports of this fabulous value-for-money fighter jet!
> 
> Some of our members may post the news here if they have also seen the report! I am finding the link!



Once again, we only have that one interview from the Singaporean Airshow to go by. While the Spokesperson of AVIC is a reliable source, we should still be cautiously optimistic. Will WS-13 start equipping newer block JF-17s and even J-31s in two years? Very likely. Will they replace all RD-93 engines on existing JF-17s? That's doubtful.

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> Bangladesh is getting lca according to some ha..I don't think bangladesh is going for FC-1 i think YAK-130/133 and later on SU-30/Mig-29 variants would be the future, even J-10 seems impossible.


we are going for two air wings, one for airforce and one for navy. possibility JF-17, J10 for navy and Su/mig series for airforce ( i am talking about goal 2030) i am sure bd is not going for lca whose 60-70% depends on western parts and lca is little over priced

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## shuttler

Luftwaffe said:


> FC-1 is Singapore Air Show? Any pics.









credit: /military.china.com.cn











Credit：81hots.net





The title of the following link says FC-01/JF-17 aims to reach 300 orders (on top of existing 100)***!

新加坡航展中国战机受欢迎 枭龙将实现300架订单|航展|枭龙_凤凰军事

*** it did not mention who have placed the 100 orders!!!

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> we are going for two air wings, one for airforce and one for navy. possibility JF-17, J10 for navy and Su/mig series for airforce ( i am talking about goal 2030) i am sure bd is not going for lca whose 60-70% depends on western parts and lca is little over priced


 
It would be pointless to go for 2 4++ Gen by 2030. If russian light weight stealth materialize it would be BAF's choice as for Navy FC-1 [obviously future blocks] could be a potential choice but not definite.

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> Bangladesh is getting lca according to some ha..I don't think bangladesh is going for FC-1 i think YAK-130/133 and later on SU-30/Mig-29 variants would be the future, even J-10 seems impossible.


bro what will be the upgrades of JF-17 block 3 ?

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## EyanKhan

BDforever said:


> bro what will be the upgrades of JF-17 block 3 ?


not known only the concept is ready bu it is tought to have an AESA radar and maybe WS-13 engine now.The rest will depend on Pakistan's economic situation as it is the main customer.

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> It would be pointless to go for 2 4++ Gen by 2030. If russian light weight stealth materialize it would be BAF's choice as for Navy FC-1 [obviously future blocks] could be a potential choice but not definite.


5th gen will be not available for us before 2025 and btw 4th gen will not be useless until aircraft becomes fully invisible LOL



EyanKhan said:


> not known only the concept is ready bu it is tought to have an AESA radar and maybe WS-13 engine now.The rest will depend on Pakistan's economic situation as it is the main customer.


want more hard points and payload

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## shuttler

The change of prioritising the active development of WS-13 and variant is because
1. the interrupted supply of Klimov RD-93 - the visible blocking stone for more exports
2. RD-93 is underpowered not meeting the joint development target for an upgrade
3. the huge profit potentials for the Joint Venture of China and Pakistan

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## BDforever

shuttler said:


> credit: /military.china.com.cn
> 
> The title of the following link says FC-01/JF-17 aims to reach 300 orders (on top of existing 100)***!
> 
> 新加坡航展中国战机受欢迎 枭龙将实现300架订单|航展|枭龙_凤凰军事
> 
> *** it did not mention who have placed the 100 orders!!!


probably bangladesh  or KSA

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## shuttler

BDforever said:


> probably bangladesh



aint matter as long as the JV is signing the contract, that means both China and Pakistan have agreed to sell!

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> 5th gen will be not available for us before 2025 and btw 4th gen will not be useless until aircraft becomes fully invisible LOL


 
Hah, well i still doubt j-10 or FC-1 since Yak-130/133 are coming and BAF would be busy I think for the next 4-5 years you can forget about 4+ Gen "apart" from some deal to modernize and add 6-8 more Fulcrums but lets wait..

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> Hah, well i still doubt j-10 or FC-1 since Yak-130/133 are coming and BAF would be busy I think for the next 4-5 years you can forget about 4+ Gen "apart" from some deal to modernize and add 6-8 more Fulcrums but lets wait..


BD also buying 9 Chinese jet trainer K-8/J-9

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## Luftwaffe

shuttler said:


> credit: /military.china.com.cn
> 
> The title of the following link says FC-01/JF-17 aims to reach 300 orders (on top of existing 100)***!
> 
> 新加坡航展中国战机受欢迎 枭龙将实现300架订单|航展|枭龙_凤凰军事
> 
> *** it did not mention who have placed the 100 orders!!!


 
Post translation.



BDforever said:


> BD also buying 9 Chinese jet trainer K-8/J-9


 
When?!! but YAK-130 is advance trainer and point defense Interceptor light attack. If Chinese trainers are coming than i have to raise eye brow at FC-1 too...

F-7BGI
Yak-130
K-8
FC-1 hmmm

It has to be either Yak or K-8 and or FC-1 or Yak-130 or else it would be hassle for BAF/Navy.

Yak-130 and K-8s

K-8s and FC-1

FC-1, K-8 and Yak [unlikely]

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## Superboy

So, on schedule for Block 3 JFT. Bye bye Russians, no need you anymore. 



UKBengali said:


> Not really a surprise as this was bound to happen soon.
> 
> What I am interested in is whether the engine would be WS-13A which is rated at 22,000 Ibs.
> 
> A JF-17 Block 3 that has AESA radar and the WS-13A engine would give the Gripen NG a good fight.
> 
> At half the cost of the Gripen NG,it could be a very good choice for many countries and export sales could easily reach many hundreds.




WS-13A of course.

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## shuttler

Luftwaffe said:


> *Post translation*.



Edit：I shouldnt be answering to you @Luftwaffe with this attitude
But for once this news is in the interests of both China and Pakistan !

This is the relevant section in Chinese textL

*中航技：“枭龙”销售风头正劲*

在开幕当天，中航技展台前前来参观、问询的各国政府官员、参展商和媒体络绎不绝。中航技副总裁刘宇告诉记者：“对中航技而言，新加坡航展并不是用来展示新产品的平台，我们更希望利用这个航展来辐射亚洲与东非的客户群。因此，这次航展我们带来的依然是中航工业近几年已经发展得比较成熟的产品，比如‘枭龙’和L15高级教练机，其销售情况可谓风头正劲。”

“枭龙”飞机是中航工业进入国际市场的一颗新星，也是未来10~15年对外销售的主力机型。刘宇介绍道：“‘枭龙’飞机近一两年销售情况非常不错，目前已有一百余架的生效订单。虽然这是中国和巴基斯坦共同研发的成果，但为了达到2012年新加坡航展上提出的5年实现300架订单的目标，我们希望有更多的第三方国家能够采购我们的飞机，为此，我们也一直在不断努力着。”

中航技展台陈列了一架双座型“枭龙”飞机模型，据了解，这是该架模型在世界级航展上的第三次展出。中航技方面表示，双座型“枭龙”飞机是为了配合未来单座型“枭龙”飞机的大批量售卖，用以满足客户需求的新产品，目前正处在研发过程中，将根据客户需求和研发进度来决定何时推向市场。

巴基斯坦常驻新加坡大使赛义德·哈桑·贾维德在接受媒体联合采访时表示，“枭龙”飞机项目是中国和巴基斯坦军事合作的重要组成部分，该型飞机技术、质量方面都表现得很好，这次前来展台参观的各国代表团也对“枭龙”飞机都表现出了浓厚兴趣。他还透露，目前已与一些国家开始进行沟通和谈判，他认为，“枭龙”飞机一定会在未来国际市场中占有一席之地。

Net translation

*CATIC : "Fierce Dragon" heady sales*

In the opening day , before CATIC booth to visit, government officials Inquirer , exhibitors and media stream. CATIC vice president Liu told reporters : "The CATIC , the Singapore Airshow is not a platform to showcase new products , we hope to use this airshow radiation customer base in Asia and East Africa, therefore , this aircraft . Show us is still in the aircraft industry in recent years has developed more sophisticated products, such as ' Fierce Dragon ' and L15 advanced trainer , the situation can be described as robust in much of its sales . "

"Fierce Dragon" AVIC Aircraft is a new star in the international market , but also the next 10 to 15 years, foreign sales of the main models . Liu introduced: . " ' Fierce Dragon ' aircraft sales last year or two is very good, there are more than one hundred aircraft orders currently in force , although this is China and Pakistan jointly developed results, but in order to achieve the 2012 Singapore Airshow the proposed five-year goal to achieve 300 orders , we hope to have more third-party countries to purchase our aircraft , and we have been in ongoing efforts . "


CATIC two-seater booth showcased an " Fierce Dragon " aircraft model , it is understood that this is the model aircraft air show in the world 's third -class exhibition . CATIC side said that two-seater " Fierce Dragon " aircraft in large quantities in order to meet future single-seat " Fierce Dragon " aircraft sale to meet customer demand for new products , is currently in the development process, according to the customer demand and R & D progress to determine when to market.

Pakistan's Ambassador and Permanent Singapore Syed Hasan Javed combined in a media interview that the "Fierce Dragon" aircraft project is an important part of military cooperation between China and Pakistan , the aircraft technology and quality have performed well delegations also visited the booth to come to the "Fierce Dragon " aircraft have shown a keen interest . He also revealed that currently has with some countries begin to communicate and negotiate , he believes , " Fierce Dragon " aircraft will have a place in the future international market.

*Green coloured text relevant to Pakistanis Ambassador's sales pitch*

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## farhan_9909

For JF-17 AESA radar and new engine is confirmed.

Rest we will know later.

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## HRK

some very notable differences in dual seat and single seat JF-17 models .... showcased with armed L-15

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## ssethii

farhan_9909 said:


> For JF-17 AESA radar and new engine is confirmed.
> 
> Rest we will know later.


Any info about AESA from which vendor?

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> When?!! but YAK-130 is advance trainer and point defense Interceptor light attack. If Chinese trainers are coming than i have to raise eye brow on FC-1 too...
> 
> F-7BGI
> Yak-130
> K-8
> FC-1 hmmm
> 
> It has to be either Yak or K-8 and or FC-1 or Yak-130 or else it would be hassle for BAF/Navy.
> 
> Yak-130 and K-8s
> 
> K-8s and FC-1
> 
> FC-1, K-8 and Yak [unlikely]


Bangladesh Awami League Official Site - PM for building a modern air force
Be vigilant to protect constitution

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> Bangladesh Awami League Official Site - PM for building a modern air force
> Be vigilant to protect constitution


 
PM will fly K-8? gosh she should be scared there could be remote ejection system installed to eject seat as soon as the aircraft is at a good altitude.

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> PM will fly K-8? gosh she should be scared there could be remote ejection system installed to eject seat as soon as the aircraft is at a good altitude.


does not matter, matter is,BD is getting it , burn baby burn


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## Superboy

BDforever said:


> bro what will be the upgrades of JF-17 block 3 ?




Block 3 is two seater, as depicted by the model. AESA, IRST, WS-13A engine.


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## BDforever

Superboy said:


> Block 3 is two seater, as depicted by the model.


only change is that it has two seats ?


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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> does not matter, better is BD is getting it , burn baby burn


 
I think J-9 has more possibility and basically is an F-7 modified, as advance trainer i wonder why BAF would go for two types of advance Trainers.


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## HRK

ssethii said:


> Any info about AESA from which vendor?



most probably Chinese origin AESA ....


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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> only change is that it has two seats ?


 
Not, Block III will have single and dual seat variants could also be metalize.

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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> I think J-9 has more possibility and basically is an F-7 modified, as advance trainer i wonder why BAF would go for two types of advance Trainers.


one for navy, one for airforce


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## shuttler

Turkey is showing interests in the plane































All photo credits: .81hots.net
Post date: Feb 12, 2014

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> one for navy, one for airforce


 
And why can't future naval pilots train on Yak-130 unless navy wants to opt for Chines origin aircraft...oh wait J-16 hmm but if that happens russians would stop support for yak-130..


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## BDforever

Luftwaffe said:


> And why can't future naval pilots train on Yak-130 unless navy wants to opt for Chines origin aircraft...oh wait J-16 hmm but if that happens russians would stop support for yak-130..


will not do because we are going to buy aircraft for airforce from russia


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## shuttler

And Saudi Arabia?

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## Luftwaffe

BDforever said:


> will not do because we are going to buy aircraft for airforce from russia


 
Remain to be seen...you can opt for j-16 with AL-31 engines pay russians some money all parties would be happy, the russian support is terrible you know it Indonesian air force experienced so did Malaysian air force and Moroccan air force.

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## shuttler

【环球网报道 特约记者 高卓】2014年新加坡航展2月11日开幕，中国中航工业旗下的中航技与中航国际在展会现场展示了单座、双座型“枭龙”战机，L-15高级教练机、K-8教练机，直-9直升机、“翼龙”和SN-209无人机等军机模型，引发业界关注。
　　在本次航展上，由于巴基斯坦军方的参加，中巴联合研制的“JF-17”枭龙战机自然成了大家的焦点，众所周知，“枭龙”战机的发动机目前选择的是俄罗斯克利莫夫RD-93发动机，据悉，俄中双方早在2005年便已开始就提供推力增加型的RD-93型发动机(由原先的8.3吨提高至9吨)展开谈判，但该项交易却传闻遭到印度方面的阻挠，尽管随后的JF-17“枭龙”战机生产进程较为顺利，但却不时会有俄罗斯RD-93发动机供应出现问题的消息传出。
　　在回答环球网特约记者关于国产发动机何时才能装配在“枭龙”上出口时，中航技副总刘宇回答到：“很快，实际上国产发动机的整个试制、试验、试飞工作已经在紧锣密鼓的进行之中，那么应该说在1-2年之内就会得到满意的答案”。这说明，国产涡扇-13(WS-13)中等推力涡轮风扇航空发动机有望在1-2年内装备“枭龙”战机，从而为“枭龙”战机的大量出口扫清最大的一个技术方面的障碍，并有可能进一步降低“枭龙”的成本。
　　此外，在回答有哪些国家对“枭龙”有购买意向时，刘宇称，除了巴基斯坦外，还有埃及、孟加拉以及西亚、中亚、甚至美洲的一些国家都有采购意向。(鸣谢：超大军事)

Net translation
[ Global Network reports special correspondent Gaucho ] 2014 Singapore Airshow February 11 opening , the Air China Industry 's CATIC and AVIC International exhibition site shows a single-seat , two-seater " Fierce Dragon" fighter , L-15 advanced trainer aircraft , K-8 trainer aircraft , helicopter straight -9 " pterodactyl " and SN-209 unmanned aerial vehicles and other military aircraft models , causing concern to the industry .

In this air show , due to participate in the Pakistani military and Pakistan jointly developed "JF-17" Fierce Dragon fighter naturally became the focus of everyone , we all know, the "Fierce Dragon" fighter engine currently selected is Russian Klimov RD-93 engines , it is learned , Russia and China have already begun to increase the provision of thrust type RD-93 engine ( 8.3 tons to 9 tons from the original raise ) negotiations as early as 2005 , but the transaction was said facing obstructions probably due to India , despite the subsequent JF-17 " Fierce Dragon" fighter production process more smoothly , but there will be a message appears Russian RD-93 engine supply problems from time to time came .

In response to the global network special correspondent on the domestic engine when fitted to the outlet in the " Fierce Dragon" on time , *CATIC vice president Liu replied: "Soon, virtually the entire trial , test , test work has been in full swing domestic engine the ongoing, it should be said that in 1-2 years will get a satisfactory answer . " This shows that domestic turbofan ”WoShan“ -13 (WS-13) medium- thrust turbofan aeroengine equipment is expected in 1-2 years "* Fierce Dragon" fighter , thus clearing one of the largest technical aspects of a large number of export " Fierce Dragon" fighter 's barriers and are likely to further reduce the " Fierce Dragon" costs.

Also , in answer to what the state "Fierce Dragon" purchase intention when Liu said , in addition to Pakistan , there are Egypt , Bangladesh and West Asia , Central Asia, and even some countries in the Americas have intent to purchase . ( Acknowledgement : large military )

Link:
枭龙战机2年内将换国产发动机

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## shuttler

A minor difference in content to the above report but the following is from the official media
Xinhua News:

*官方证实枭龙2年内有望换国产动力 多国有采购意向 *
2014年02月12日 13:29:25 来源：中国新闻网
分享到： 0






中国枭龙战斗机模型亮相新加坡航展

2014年新加坡航展2月11日开幕，中国中航工业旗下的中航技与中航国际在展会现场展示了单座、双座型“枭龙”战机，L-15高级教练机、K-8教练机，直-9直升机、“翼龙”和SN-209无人机等军机模型，引发业界关注。

在本次航展上，由于巴基斯坦军方的参加，中巴联合研制的“JF-17”枭龙战机自然成了大家的焦点，众所周知，“枭龙”战机的发动机目前选择的是俄罗斯克利莫夫RD-93发动机，据悉，俄中双方早在2005年便已开始就提供推力增加型的RD-93型发动机(由原先的8.3吨提高至9吨)展开谈判，但该项交易却传闻遭到印度方面的阻挠，尽管随后的JF-17“枭龙”战机生产进程较为顺利，但却不时会有俄罗斯RD-93发动机供应出现问题的消息传出。

在回答环球网特约记者关于国产发动机何时才能装配在“枭龙”上出口时，中航技副总刘宇回答到：“很快，实际上国产发动机的整个试制、试验、试飞工作已经在紧锣密鼓的进行之中，那么应该说在1-2年之内就会得到满意的答案”。这说明，国产涡扇-13(WS-13)中等推力涡轮风扇航空发动机有望在1-2年内装备“枭龙”战机，从而为“枭龙”战机的大量出口扫清最大的一个技术方面的障碍，并有可能进一步降低“枭龙”的成本。

此外，在回答有哪些国家对“枭龙”有购买意向时，刘宇称，除了巴基斯坦外，还有埃及、孟加拉以及西亚、中亚、甚至美洲的一些国家都有采购意向。(高卓)

Net translation:

2014 Singapore Airshow February 11 opening of the China Aviation Industry 's CATIC and AVIC International show at the exhibition site single-seat , two-seater " Fierce Dragon" fighter , L-15 advanced trainer aircraft , K-8 trainer aircraft , Z-9 helicopters, " pterodactyl " and SN-209 unmanned aerial vehicles and other military aircraft models , causing concern to the industry .

In this air show , due to participate in the Pakistani military and Pakistan jointly developed "JF-17" Fierce Dragon fighter naturally became the focus of everyone , we all know, the "Fierce Dragon" fighter engine currently selected is Russian Klimov RD-93 engines , it is learned , Russia and China have already begun to increase the provision of thrust type RD-93 engine ( 8.3 tons to 9 tons from the original raise ) negotiations as early as 2005 , but the transaction was rumored obstruction to India , despite the subsequent JF-17 " Fierce Dragon" fighter production process more smoothly , but there will be a message appears Russian RD-93 engine supply problems from time to time came .

In response to the global network special correspondent on the domestic engine when fitted to the outlet in the " Fierce Dragon" on time , CATIC vice president Liu replied: "*Soon, virtually the entire trial , test , test work has been in full swing domestic engine the ongoing, it should be said that in 1-2 years will get a satisfactory answer . " This shows that domestic turbofan -13 (WS-13) medium- thrust turbofan aeroengine equipment is expected in 1-2 years " Fierce Dragon" fighter , thus clearing one of the largest technical aspects of a large number of export " Fierce Dragon" fighter 's barriers and are likely to further reduce the " Fierce Dragon" costs.*

Also , in answer to what the state "Fierce Dragon" purchase intention when Liu said , in addition to Pakistan , there are Egypt , Bangladesh and West Asia , Central Asia, and even some countries in the Americas have intent to purchase . ( Gaucho )

link:
官方证实枭龙2年内有望换国产动力 多国有采购意向-新华网

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## aliaselin

BDforever said:


> bangladesh will be first customer


Somebody in BD military forum said the BD pilot have flew J-10S，so your government seems more interested in it.

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## aliaselin

As AVIC president Lin Zuoming said the aeroengines of China would have a big leap before 2016, there may be lots of news and information about Chinese engines in several years and I open this thread for this topic. Rumors may be ahead of news but not as credible as news.
First rumor is from Liyang, and something may got mass production soon. I think JF-17 is thirsty for it.


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## aliaselin

The first turbocharged internal combustion engine of China for long-endurance UAV were successfully developed

中国首型长航时无人机用涡轮增压内燃机研制成功|研制成功|高空长航时无人机_凤凰军事

CNSAIC of AVIC has successfully developed 1 MW level gas turbine used by tank.

防务短评：中国坦克发动机获突破 首装燃气轮机_军事频道_凤凰网

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## aliaselin

It is said that the WS-10 used by J-10B is near the end point of testing.

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## aliaselin

Another news convinces that something new may got mass production soon
战斗在一起 胜利在一起

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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> Another news convinces that something new may got mass production soon
> 战斗在一起 胜利在一起


Hopefully is WS-15.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> Hopefully is WS-15.



The Prototype 2013 will feature with WS-15.

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## aliaselin

Beast said:


> Hopefully is WS-15.


No，most possible WS-12 and WS-13


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## aliaselin

http://static.sse.com.cn/disclosure/listedinfo/announcement/c/2014-08-14/600893_20140815_6.pdf
Liyang spent 900 million RMB for production line


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## aliaselin

中国在研兆瓦燃机将进行一个月高原高寒试车_凤凰军事
MW level gas turbine will be tested on plateau，probable installed on MBT-3000

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## aliaselin

12150ZL：730HP, used by type 96A


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## aliaselin

Liyang 4MW gas turbine ignition test started
黎阳首台4兆瓦燃机燃气发生器点火试验成功_航空企业_航空工业频道_新闻中心_

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## Genesis

aliaselin said:


> Liyang 4MW gas turbine ignition test started
> 黎阳首台4兆瓦燃机燃气发生器点火试验成功_航空企业_航空工业频道_新闻中心_


your sure you don't mean 40 mw, 4 mw is weak man, even the 52D has a 28wm turbine.


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## aliaselin

Genesis said:


> your sure you don't mean 40 mw, 4 mw is weak man, even the 52D has a 28wm turbine.


4 MW can be used as auxiliary engine


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## aliaselin

2000kW turboshaft





750 kgf turbofan

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## cirr

WS-10E（E for enhanced thrust of 14-ton）prototype tests completed and will start in-flight trials soon：

中航工业科技大会表彰名单_中国航空_航空工业频道_新闻中心_

Item 7.

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## Zipper1724

curiously, what engine is used in J20 testing machine now? WS-15?


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## Beast

Zipper1724 said:


> curiously, what engine is used in J20 testing machine now? WS-15?


WS-10G, upthrust of WS-10.


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## aliaselin

记黎阳典型人物：俯首铸剑终不悔_航空人物频道_新闻中心_
WS-13 have special designation for export version and enhanced thrust verion
WS-13's thrust force is 8800kfg; and don't know the thrust force for export one
Minshang has set fire

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## AsianLion

Al-31 on J10 & Su30s has caused many problems, AL-31 needs to replaced with a new engine.

JF17 now must need an AESA radar, new composite materials and the WS-13A.


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## genmirajborgza786

AsianUnion said:


> Al-31 on J10 & Su30s has caused many problems, AL-31 needs to replaced with a new engine.
> 
> JF17 now must need an AESA radar, new composite materials and the WS-13A.


what's the max speed for ws-13a with full load ? , I know that rd-93 was mach 1.6 or 1.8 , so if ws-13a can deliver mach 2 , then that would be the great for jf-17 blk 2

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## Sulman Badshah

Superboy said:


> Block 3 is two seater, as depicted by the model. AESA, IRST, WS-13A engine.





BDforever said:


> only change is that it has two seats ?



No Twin seat model is different .... Twin seat model is code named as JF 17 B 

Block 3 will be single seat will have new engine , AESA (probably in diamond nose shape )

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## Sulman Badshah

Twin seat will be advance trainer and attacker aircraft with a payload of 4500 kg


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## AsianLion

genmirajborgza786 said:


> what's the max speed for ws-13a with full load ? , I know that rd-93 was mach 1.6 or 1.8 , so if ws-13a can deliver mach 2 , then that would be the great for jf-17 blk 2




This data below show RD-93 is better than WS-13 but the versions WS-13A and WS-13E takes the lead. WS-13A & WS13E have 2 Mach speed, I guess so:

*WS-13* - 86 kilonewtons (19,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]
*WS-13A* (upgraded) - 100 kilonewtons (22,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]
*WS-13E* - upgrade
WS-13 It is designed to have a life span of 2,200 hours and an improved version, providing around 100 kN (22,450 lb) of thrust with afterburner, is under development.

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## twocents

genmirajborgza786 said:


> what's the max speed for ws-13a with full load ? , I know that rd-93 was mach 1.6 or 1.8 , so if ws-13a can deliver mach 2 , then that would be the great for jf-17 blk 2



According to a Chinese aviation expert DSI works great till the aircraft reaches Mach 2, after which the air intake starts to generate drag.

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## siegecrossbow

twocents said:


> According to a Chinese aviation expert DSI works great till the aircraft reaches Mach 2, after which the air intake starts to generate drag.



Not necessarily. I think DSI intakes could be optimized for different flight regimes.


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## aliaselin

http://www.caiep.org/achieve/content.php?id=3309
Advanced medium thrust engine restarted from 2008，propulsion force is 9,800 kgf, T/W ratio 9


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## siegecrossbow

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Prototype 2013 will feature with WS-15.



Highly unlikely, but I'll keep my hopes up.


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## aliaselin

中航工业涡轮院疑似攻克涡扇15发动机叶片难关 - 互联网焦点 - 21CN.COM
The turbine inlet temperature may be about 1925K for WS-15

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## cirr

I don't understand why they always delay the publication or reporting of such important breakthroughs by 3 years minimum.


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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> I don't understand why they always delay the publication or reporting of such important breakthroughs by 3 years minimum.


CCp prefers to keep low tune, unlike our southern neighbour.

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## aliaselin

> A modified design of a fan was described,on the basis of enough performance and flow field analysisof original fan,in order to satisfy themore thrust requirement of a turbo-fan engine.The modified design method was： the design tool was ＂a general blading design system and its application for axial/centrifugal compressor＂.According to the similitude theory,at the precondition of the equivalence of converse mass flow and converse revolution speed at the second stage inlet,the increase of the massflow was growing with the pressureratio.By CFD computation and analysis,all the performances met the requirement and the design result was perfect.The results showthat as the speed of the fan increases 1.1 percent,the mass flow increases 7.1 percent,the pressure ratio increases 7.4 percent,the efficiency increases 2.9percent,and the stall marge increases 0.8 percent.Analysis and valuation of the performance and matching characteristic indicate that this design can satisfy the more thrust requirement of the turbo-fan engine.



WS-13E increases thrust for 7.4% compared to WS-13


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## aliaselin

> 三代中等推力航空发
> 动机生产线建设项目
> 否 96,123.84 42,798. 63 42,798. 63 否 47. 55% 10,309 项目前期置换资金 37, 651.72 万元已全部
> 完成，项目建设已签订合同 68, 448 万元。
> 根据公司科研生产实际需求，项目建设需
> 进行调整，目前正加紧办理。项目中关键
> 进口设备采购需进行技术调研工作，按规
> 定流程走招投标程序，时间周期较长，目
> 前正抓紧办理。



WS-13 production line has finished 47.55% by the end of year 2014

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## aliaselin

> 航空发动机的控制系统就像人的大脑，负责接收各个传感器信号，进行计算处理，再控制执行器进行操作，它控制着发动机的启动、运行、调节等一系列活动。“大脑”的重要性不言而喻，是影响飞机和航空发动机研制水平的关键因素之一。中航工业动力所某型发动机数控系统项目团队经过近十年的风雨历程，开辟了国内数字电子控制系统的先河，使得某型发动机数控系统赶超了国外第三代战斗机控制系统水平，真正打造出了航空发动机的“最强大脑”。
> 一支优秀的团队，始终能够克服一切困难，完成不可能完成的任务。打造出前所未有的航空发动机“最强大脑”的团队由动力所第六研究室及航机总体一部的人员组成。项目研制初期，由于技术难度大，数控系统基础薄弱，研制体系及设计流程不完善，试验条件、试验手段及试验标准不完备，工程化研制经验不足等诸多问题，想打造出航空发动机的“最强大脑”仿佛天方夜谭。但某型发动机数控系统项目团队带着初生牛犊不怕虎的冲劲，在动力所总设计师刘永泉、所长助理蔚夺魁的带领下，全力开展技术攻关。孙志岩、吴新、梁彩云三位副总师各司其职，从前期方案设计、关键技术决策、控制系统与发动机总体匹配，到后期发动机试飞、关键技术鉴定，带领团队稳扎稳打，合作攻坚。
> 成功的路上总是坎坷泥泞，问题也总是接踵而来。从数学模型的建构、修模，到控制参数及控制品质优化，再到半物理模拟实验，从无到有，从宏观到微观，从理论到实际，在历经了3年零3个月艰苦卓绝的努力后，项目团队突破了多项技术难关，数控系统动态响应、稳态精度等控制品质不断优化，产品可靠性不断提高，技术质量问题逐步归零，航空发动机的“最强大脑”应运而生。
> 在数控系统研制的过程中，动力所航机总体一部负责站在发动机全局的立场上对“最强大脑”的功能进行设计，研制人员充分利用了数控系统实现复杂设计要求的优势。在施磊、邴连喜、刘亚君的带领下，团队成员设计的起动闭环技术、高空小表速加力接通控制以及数控系统总体技术状态都取得了较好的成绩。
> 动力所第六研究室的栾东、李春光、荣莉是发动机控制系统的行家里手，也是团队的中坚力量。在面对突发问题时他们沉着冷静，利用过硬的技术和丰富的经验，带领和指导团队成员集智攻关，使一个个难题迎刃而解。作为集团一级技术专家的荣莉，带领成员攻坚克难，在工作中不仅严于律己、刻苦钻研、事事率先垂范，更积极做好传帮带工作。
> 经过近10年的戮力拼搏，经历了方案设计、产品设计、数值仿真、台架试车、飞行试验和技术鉴定的六个阶段，某型发动机数字控制系统完成了从暴露问题到完善设计直至试验验证的多次迭代。这是一支目标清晰、分工明确、团结互爱的团队，是一支敢拼、敢做、甘于平淡、善于创新、为梦想不懈追求的优秀团队。你可能不会想到，这个打造了发动机“最强大脑”的团队中“80后”占了一大半。在10年的时间里，“80后”们陆续结婚生子，身份和角色的变化带来了更多的牺牲：李利新婚不久就奔赴外场，高原、阎良都有他的足迹；李昌红孩子体质差、有哮喘，经常生病住院，作为母亲却因为出差和加班不能陪伴在生病的孩子身边；柳阳的父亲身患恶疾，她却无暇在身边照料，远赴离家千里的高原，参加发动机试验；赵明阳顾不上刚刚出生的女儿，连续参加调试多日，保证了新机顺利出厂……每一个团队成员都有类似的故事，只要有发动机出现的地方，就有他们忙碌的身影。外场保障、长试考核、排故攻关、小批交付常常是披星戴月，连续奋战。发动机内外场累计试车试飞数千小时，团队人员精心地伴随发动机度过每分每秒。
> 型号成功我成才！伴随着“最强大脑”的研制，某型发动机数控系统项目团队青年人已经成长为控制系统设计技术骨干，而倾尽他们十年的青春和汗水的“最强大脑”也成为我国自主研制航空发动机征程上的里程碑。



FADEC for WS-10B is ready



> 克难更弥坚，风雨见彩虹。中航工业动力所某型机研制团队以自强不息的气势，创新超越的精神，创新研制思路，走国人自行研发路。近两年来，某型发动机研制团队以一种理念、一种方式、更是一种态度，披荆斩棘，屡创佳绩，打造中国战鹰强劲心脏，为了托举这个动力梦想，他们倾尽心血执着追求。不畏创新风险突出、研制任务异常繁重，在自主研制航空发动机的道路上迎难而上，奋勇向前。
> 创新铸就利剑，打破研制阻碍。为了进一步满足作战使用需求，以适应未来面临的作战环境和部队转型建设，某型发动机开始了全新的研制历程。某型发动机控制系统复杂、安全性要求很高，多项技术难题亟需突破，设计参数也都需要重新调试，研制难度大，风险高，资源冲突严重。该型发动机研制团队一步一个脚印，以开拓进取的精神，先后完成控制系统、新材料、新工艺等关键技术攻关，解决了制约型号研制的难题，突破了数十项关键技术，在国内首次完成整机吞鸟等一系列高难度、复杂试验，对后续型号研制起到十分重要的作用。
> 总师系统统筹策划安排，把控发动机研制进程。在某型发动机研制的过程中，总师刘永泉以聪明才智和丰富经验，统筹规划、深入分析并抓住工作重点，驾驭型号研制全局。在攻关过程中高度关注研制进展，经常深入科研一线，组织实施攻关计划。总师系统在发动机研制遇到困难、科研人员力量不足的情况下，果断决定，全力保障研制节点，通过统筹安排、合理调度，使各方面资源发挥了最大效用。副总师蔚夺魁多次在试飞现场临危不乱，本着不回避、及时解决问题的原则，带领设计人员分析故障原因，制定排故计划，落实排故措施，使型号研制突破阻碍，顺利进行。在排故攻关之时，排故领导小组带领研制团队运用科学的工作方法，秉持严谨的工作态度，克服一切困难，制定了排故措施，开展了大量计算分析，完成3次压气机部件试验、上百次整机地面试车、高空台试验及飞行验证等工作，终于达到故障归零条件。该项排故工作开展迅速、方法科学系统，得到上级领导高度赞扬，积累了宝贵的工作经验。
> 试验保障发动机研制取得实效。某型发动机试验、试飞任务艰巨、难度大、风险突出。面对严峻形势，研制团队毫不气馁、顶住压力、顽强拼搏。团队成员主动进驻外场，为了工作连续几个月没有回家，用坚守和奉献保证了试验的顺利进行。试飞保障团队在4000米的高原克服了缺氧、头痛欲裂、食欲减退、无法入眠、强烈的紫外线照射等不利因素，奋战30天，成功完成了各项高原试验任务。初始寿命试车时间长、难度大、条件艰苦，总共持续了三个多月，正值东北很冷的冬季，为了保证试车进度夜以继日。每个跟试人员兢兢业业，以保证试车圆满完成。既做航空人就得多辛苦，他们唯一的愿望就是发动机试验进展顺利、试飞取得成功。
> 某型发动机研制团队用智慧和坚韧创造了不俗的成绩，使某型发动机捷报频传。动力梦想在远方，心永远在路上，动力奋斗者像所有为祖国的发动机事业拼搏的人一样，某型发动机研制团队仍以敬业诚信、求真务实的精神，在自主研制航空发动机的道路上一步步朝既定目标大步迈进。



WS-10B for J-10 and J-11 is ready

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## kuge

中国研制导弹攻击无人机发动机成功

TDO piston engine successfully developed for heavy uav like chai-hong 3......

来源：香港《信报》

原标题：中国研制导弹攻击无人机发动机成功将大批量生产部署南海

国产大型无人机引擎研发取得突破，由天津大学研发的「轻型航空发动机TD0工程样机」（下称TD0引擎），近日装配于国产彩虹-3侦察攻击无人机上试飞成 功。该引擎造价仅20万元（人民币．下同）以下，大大降低无人机制造成本，令军用攻击无人机得以大量生产。军事专家指出，将来无人机可能大量部署于东海、 南海等地，执行军事任务。
天津大学内燃机研究所4年前着手研发适用于大型无人机和双人以下小型飞机的活塞式汽油引擎，完成关键零部件设计和工艺分析后，和电单车、汽车引擎制造商宗申动力合力制作。
打破国外长期垄断

TD0引擎于今年3月完成性能指标测试，上月29日挂载于中国航天空气动力技术研究院的彩虹-3无人机上，成功进行首次试飞。研发团队专家表示，该引擎综合性能达到外国同类型无人机引擎水平，可满足高空及长航时的飞行需要。
由于中国小型航空活塞引擎领域的空白，目前翼龙、彩虹-3及后继机种彩虹-4等多款国产无人机，均采用奥地利进口的Rotax914型活塞引擎，这款引擎也是世界上多种高空长航时无人机的主要动力系统，包括美军的MQ-1掠夺者无人机。
随着TD0引擎研制成功，不仅打破无人机引擎技术和市场被国外长期垄断局面，提升中国国防科技水平，更为无人机军备提供有力保障。重庆民企、在深 圳上市的宗申动力表明，今后将构建TD0引擎制造平台，快速提升产品批量化制造能力，并加快公司向通用航空领域的战略转型。

单独行动小而隐蔽
「无人机非常重要，又小又隐蔽。」内地军事专家倪乐雄向本报指出，未来战场无人化趋势非常明显，无人机是各国追求国防的一个重要方向，「它可以单独行动，进行攻击轰炸、支援地面部队，特别是跟特种部队配合，效用相当不错。」
倪乐雄表示，无人机首先装配给空军作战单位，也可分配给陆军和海军，待发展到一定程度，规模和功能都齐全后，亦可能单独组成无人机部队。他指出，由于无人机省油省力等优点，肯定会大量部署于重要位置，例如东海、南海或边境有争议的地方。

早前有解放军将领指出，动用无人机监视钓鱼台已成惯例，今年内亦将于沿海建11个海洋监测基地，每个基地至少配备一架无人机，加强侦测能力。 (博讯 boxun.com)

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## kuge

history of taihang(ws-10) development...it is such a hard journey....

世界军事论坛 - 《武器的秘密》：谁持长剑倚太行：FWS-10A“太行”涡扇发动机






在中国航空工业历史上，从未有哪一款发动机曾有过如此之高的期待，也从未有哪一款发动机设计定型近10年来依旧争议不断。如今的它装备数量已达300台以上，仍旧在历练中不断砥砺成熟着。本期《武器的秘密》为您讲述“太行”的故事。





中国航空发动机的研制长期都是跟着配套飞机型号一同研发的，“太行”也不例外。1987年，它作为刚刚在1985年开始研制的“新歼”的配套动力正式立 项，其正式型号被称作FWS-10，后来随着研制工作的深入，型号技术状态改变后正式装备部队的型号是FWS-10A，内部经常简称为10A。





我国在80年代获得了当时非常先进的CFM56-3型民用涡扇发动机，“太行”对其核心机（也是F-15/16使用的F110发动机的核心机）进行了测绘 仿制，并确定了3级风扇+9级高压压气机+1级高压涡轮+2级低压涡轮的总体布局，和F110完全相同（作为对比，AL-31F为4-9-1-1，总级数 均为15级）。





这种做法在80年代军费紧张的时候似乎是“花小钱，办大事”的典范，但今天看来当时严重低估把CFM56先“还原”成核心机并再将其发展成军用发动机的难 度，而由于对先进航发研制难度认识不足（片面认为涡扇-6的失利完全是“文革”影响），“不知道自己不知道”一直影响着“太行”。








虽然“太行”几乎应用了当时国内航发领域掌握的最先进技术，加上核心机技术先进，具备相当不错的技术指标，不仅领先于AL-31F，和90年代美国的 F100/110改进型相比都不逊色。但在整个定型试验期间，困扰型号研制的大小问题几乎从未断绝，这有设计上的缺乏经验，也有生产上的问题。





90年代苏-27生产技术的引进对中国航空工业来说是一件大事儿，而当时由于种种原因没有引进AL-31F的生产线，这客观产生了三个结果：1.“太行” 的生存空间有了保证；2.研究所只能通过逆向摸索吃透AL-31F的相关技术帮助“太行”研发；3. 厂家无法获得先进大推力涡扇发动机生产经验。





尽管AL-31F看似粗糙，整体架构和多数部件也平淡无奇甚至有落后之嫌，例如转子支点设计旧、压气机设计保守等。但强大的系统整合能力，一流的材料冶金 和加工技术却使它们组合在一起成为军用大推力涡扇发动机的经典。如果有了生产AL-31F的经验，对“太行”设计的助力不言自明。





对于国内航发企业来说，之前生产过的最先进的发动机不过是涡喷-13（上）这种约等于前苏联60年代初的技术；而仿制“斯贝”这种英国60年代技术就遇到 了大量问题而难以投产；可以说无论从软件还是硬件上距离具备试制“太行”的技术实力都有距离，而AL-31F正是一座非常合适的桥梁。








历史没有假设，咱们言归正传。1995年副总参谋长曹刚川上将传达军委决定时明确表态，“太行”不仅将是当时研制中的“新歼”的配套动力，也将是苏-27 国产化型号的后继动力，由此有了“一发托两型”的说法。而20年后当年的“新歼”除了两架验证机之外，依旧要靠AL-31FN系列“托起”。





这是因为到了1997年的时候，为保证型号按时定型服役，尚未首飞的歼-10已经决定未来将使用俄制发动机完成试飞定型工作。此时“太行”唯一的装机选择 只有刚刚签订生产线引进协议的，采用双发设计便于试验新型发动机的苏-27。由此结下了歼-11系列和“太行”十几年的“不解之缘”。


为了保障“太行”的研制，即使在对台战备工作无比紧张，一线部队急缺三代战斗机的时候，空军仍然果断决策，从当时刚刚运到沈飞正在组装的首批歼-11当中 抽调两架组装后用于“太行”的试验工作。2001年6月，右发改为“太行”的00批04号歼-11首飞成功，该机后来也被称作歼-11WS。








进入空中试验的“太行”暴露出了诸多在地面测试时没有发现的问题，这涉及多个方面。篇幅所限，咱们仅以控制系统为例，由于CFM56的控制系统难以满足军 用航发的控制需求，因此研制人员选择直接移植技术成熟的AL-31F的机械调节系统（而且多项参数不加修改）照搬到“太行”上。





这是航空工业长期重视主机而轻视子系统的恶果，“太行”研制时竟然连研制数字电调（FADEC）的技术储备都接近为0（直到2002年才在一架歼-8II 上验证涡喷的FADEC技术），只得出此下策，所以地面试验还过得去，在条件复杂的空中就露了馅；“太行”也因此长期“四肢发达，反应迟钝”。








带着这些未解决的问题，2004年7月，研制单位召开定型工作誓师动员千人大会，“力争年底之前全面完成重点型号定型考核任务”。但在20日的对00批 13号歼-11（双发均更换“太行”）的试飞中，再次出现机械故障引起的左发停车，幸亏试飞员操纵飞机单发着陆，把宝贵的实验数据带了回来。





在完成故障排查后，2005年3月，研制单位再次召开了“太行”设计定型动员誓师大会，全所人员又一次庄严签字。这次经过半年多努力（特别是改进了调节系 统）11月“太行”终于通过最后检测，12月28日，“太行”通过设计定型审查。但如今看来这个定型颇有仓促了事之嫌，请看下文。





2003年12月首飞的歼-11B原计划使用“太行”配套定型。2006年3月，歼-11B的4号原型机改装“太行”开始试验，但由于先后出现了叶片断 裂、复合材料调节板出现故障等重大事故，最终导致2007年投产的歼-11B首批生产型只能使用AL-31F（从之前生产歼-11时俄方提供的备用发动机 中抽调）。








但抽调备用发动机毕竟只能扬汤止沸，02批歼-11B由于已经没有富余的AL-31F，必须等待“太行”的技术成熟才能装机交付。而随着生产出来的歼 -11B越来越多，车间内已经无法容纳大量缺乏发动机的机体，厂家不得不把它们堆到停机坪上，被网友拍摄到之后，“菊花残”的称谓不胫而走。





在中国航空工业中，发动机往往和配套战机命运共沉浮。2007年首飞的歼-11BS是第一款从首架原型机开始就使用“太行”作为配套动力完成试飞定型的战 机。在歼-11BS磕磕绊绊的定型试飞过程中，“太行”生产过程中的种种质量问题被逐一排查发现并解决，“菊花残”现象逐渐消失了。





2009年年底那个寒冷的冬天，当一架发动机尾喷管造型和AL-31F完全不同的空军涂装的歼-11B出现在天空时，“太行”终于“行”了！一时间引起了 网上的轰动。2010年1月，歼-11B、“太行”和霹雳-12型空空导弹一同获得了国家科技进步特等奖。2010年5月，歼-11BS完成设计定型服 役。








随着歼-11B/BS批量装备空军和海军航空兵（目前已经装备6个旅/团，另有2个单位正在换装），“太行”的装机数量如今已经突破300大关。虽然由于 发动机藏在机体内部，难以判断具体改进了什么，但从外露的尾喷管外形的不断微调仍能明显看出，“太行”在生产使用中过程仍在不断改进。 


也正是在这样的历练中“太行”继续进步着。通过对压气机等重要热端部件的技术攻关以及对生产工艺的严格把关，新批次的“太行”性能趋于稳定，其可靠性和出 勤率也渐渐追上AL-31F，已具备保障旅团级别大机群集体出动能力，为保障空军对国家重要战略方向的威慑起到了重要作用。





不过，让2005年就定型的“太行”在性能和可靠性方面和20多年前就开始交付我军的AL-31F发动机等量齐观，只能说是“亡羊补牢犹未晚”。从本世纪 初开始，俄罗斯“土星”和“礼炮”公司推出了两个系列的AL-31F改进型，分别是AL-41F1S/117S和AL-31FM/99M系列，后者已经开 始交付我军。





起飞重量增加的歼-10B/C系列改进型战斗机可以使用AL-31FM的单发改进型有效改善飞行性能，甚至歼-20也可以使用。未来随着苏-35的到来， 我国还将接触到带有矢量推力技术的AL-41F1S型发动机。但由于涉及到知识产权问题，我国生产的歼-11系列后续型号却难以装备这些改进型发动机。





由于舰载机对发动机响应速度有着很高的要求，而当时的“太行”在这方面还难以达标，因此歼-15从原型机到量产型仍使用AL-31F。如果歼-15未来使 用“太行”改进型，等于重复了当年歼-11B/BS的故事，这一点从歼-15S双座舰载战斗机正使用“太行”改进型发动机进行定型试飞得到了验证。








随着歼-11系列的型号发展逐渐深入，不仅歼-15S，双座多用途型歼-16、先进空优型歼-11D都呼唤更大推力的太行改进型发动机。通过引入单晶叶 片、合金粉末涡轮盘等先进航发材料和FADEC等技术，性能接近99M系列的“太行”改进型发动机近几年已经投入科研试飞中，并在新机上进行应用。



从2005年定型至今的10年历程，“太行”折射出的是我国航空发动机领域因缺乏完整设计流程经验而遭受的种种惨痛教训。回头看当初“设计定型”时的“太 行”不仅技术状态不稳定，厂家方面也没有做好生产高性能大推力涡扇发动机的准备，造成了装备进度严重滞后，还好已经挺过来了。





“太行”走过的这些波折，也将是涡扇-15等国产新型航空发动机研制中最为宝贵的一笔财富。而军队不惜用几乎整个第三代国产重型战斗机家族炼就“太行”的 决心，也说明即使遇到种种困难，对国产航发的坚持与信念依旧没有动摇。本期《武器的秘密》就到这里，明天《出鞘》我们再见！

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## kuge



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## kuge

more...


















looks like j-10s will not use taihang in the future?

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## Beast

kuge said:


> more...
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> 
> looks like j-10s will not use taihang in the future?


Yes, it will. The J-10B will use it.

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## Wolfhound

any news?


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## black-hawk_101

I am sure then PAC will gain a license to produce it at home and there will be a good chance for PAF to sell RD-93 to MiG-29 users with Russian permission.


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## Arthur

BDforever said:


> BD also buying 9 Chinese jet trainer K-8/J-9





aliaselin said:


> Somebody in BD military forum said the BD pilot have flew J-10S，so your government seems more interested in it.



ahem..not to mention,Bangladeshi pilots are in Pakistan on some secret training mission going on several months now.


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## karakoram

Khan saheb said:


> ahem..not to mention,Bangladeshi pilots are in Pakistan on some secret training mission going on several months now.


Really :-D :-D


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## Arthur

karakoram said:


> Really :-D :-D


YEP,brother.Talked with one of them very recently.

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## Bobby

BTW..how many FC1...China sold till date?


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## karakoram

Bobby said:


> BTW..how many FC1...China sold till date?


Talks are uderway with many countries. What about your state of the art LCA ? Leave costumers did indian air force induct it ? :-D :-D



Khan saheb said:


> YEP,brother.Talked with one of them very recently.


Khan saheb its your nick or you can speak pashtu ?


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## Bobby

karakoram said:


> Talks are uderway with many countries. What about your state of the art LCA ? Leave costumers did indian air force induct it ? :-D :-D
> 
> 
> Khan saheb its your nick or you can speak pashtu ?


LCA is Junk Fighter......but you got greatest plane in the world...thats why I asked ....


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## karakoram

Bobby said:


> LCA is Junk Fighter......but you got greatest plane in the world...thats why I asked ....


:-D :-D chill dude dont take it on heart :-D  desi english style


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## Bobby

karakoram said:


> :-D :-D chill dude dont take it on heart :-D  desi english style


I think you should chill...when I asked about JF17 you brought LCA in it


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## Arthur

karakoram said:


> Khan saheb its your nick or you can speak pashtu ?



It's only my nick and also my surname.People used to call me Chotte Khan Saab,thus the nick.
But no Pushtu,bro.

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## aliaselin

> “发动机不仅是设计出来的，更是试验出来的。”试验环节可谓是在为发动机听诊把脉，通过一系列复杂的“体检”，提升发动机的可靠性与安全性，其责任重大，容不得半点马虎。某型发动机在更高的使用要求下，很多技术难题亟需突破，试验难度大，风险高。面对挑战，中航工业动力所某型发动机研制团队毫不气馁、顶住压力、顽强拼搏，顺利完成排故工作的同时，实现了多项技术创新，高质量完成科研任务，为动力腾飞增强了信心。
> 
> 科学决策，合理部署。研制团队在时间紧、资源冲突严重的不利条件下，明确工作思路，把握研制重点，制定详细计划，实现了试车时数创新高、高空台试验成“空前”的骄人战绩。2011年试车时数达到千余小时，单个型号的试车时数超过动力所历年所有型号累计试车时数，创造了建所以来整机试车时数新高。同年，两次完成高空台验证试验，且两次高空台试验均没有出现问题，高效优质地完成任务。
> 
> 在这过程中，总师刘永泉、副总师蔚夺魁以聪明才智和多年经验深入分析，统筹谋划各项工作，较好平衡各专业发展方向，对型号狠抓措施落实，积极谋求任务完成，为发动机研制指明了方向，做好了部署，夯实了基础。研制团队顽强拼搏、甘于奉献，某型发动机试验任务繁重，试验周期紧张，大家开足马力，紧绷神经，确保试验任务顺利进行，不出现任何差池。巨大的压力和高强度的工作，以及高噪声的工作环境，使很多人的身体都有些吃不消。但大家没有因为个人身体的小问题而影响工作，用高度的责任心诠释了敬业奉献的含义。
> 
> 严格要求，精益求精。某型发动机采用大量新结构、新材料、新工艺等，国内技术基础薄弱，工程研制经验不足。为降低研制风险，研制团队以“早试、多试、严格试”的原则，开展了大量零部件试验、整机试车等工作，并对关键部件加严了试验考核力度，研制工作量远超立项规划要求工作量。为尽早暴露设计问题，提高发动机可靠性，研制团队不畏艰辛、夜以继日，全力保障试车任务开展的同时，对试车中发生的问题，仔细分析原因，挖掘问题根源，再对问题进行修改设计及试验验证，确保满足使用要求。通过努力，发动机工作稳定性和可靠性不断提高，为试飞奠定了技术基础。
> 
> 成立试验保障团队，加强了对高空台试验的技术保障力度，由副总师牵头指挥，参试人员舍小家、顾大家，连续数十天奋战在试验一线，加班加点试验及处理数据，付出了艰辛和汗水。正因为这个优秀研制团队的努力和奉献，确保了试验顺利进行，对发动机空中工作功能、性能特性进行了有效验证，对数控系统控制稳定性及控制品质进行了有效验证及优化，为降低试飞风险奠定坚实技术基础。
> 
> 创新思路，集智攻关。研制团队面对新的技术要求，迎难而上，突破创新，创造了首次完成整机超温试验、首次进行整机吞鸟试验等多项第一的成绩。如某发动机为提高发动机高空推力性能，采用了优化的混合加力燃烧室。在生产时间紧、任务重的情况下，研制团队创新设计方法，采用全新三维设计手段，突破技术难题，取得较快进展。还多次与生产厂协调，解决了工艺、工装设计，三维转二维及混排生产等技术难题，使性能攻关工作取得较大进展，按计划完成混合进气加力燃烧室试验，为定型发动机技术状态确定迈出坚实一步。
> 
> 2009年开始着手的鸟撞试验技术，需要进行庞大而繁杂的工作，研制团队经过五年多的潜心研究，使鸟撞试验技术从无到有、渐趋完善。试验前大量的准备工作和反复的技术验证，为顺利进行试验争取了时间，仅两年，首次静止条件下的鸟撞试验便完成了。但此时大家没有太多时间沉浸在喜悦中，因为接踵而来的旋转条件下鸟撞试验技术的研究已经列上日程，时不我待、埋头钻研，经过一年多的摸索，关键技术被一一突破。2013年中，国内首次航空发动机风扇叶片旋转状态下鸟撞试验成功完成，为某型发动机整体试验任务的完成画上了浓墨重彩的一笔。
> 
> 某型发动机研制团队立足车台、报效祖国，用朴实无华的行动诠释着精彩的奉献人生，为试验任务顺利完成贡献自己的力量。通过他们不懈的努力，同档次国产发动机性能首次优于进口发动机，大大增强了各方对国产动力的研制信心，为后续型号系列发展和决策创造了有利条件，向着突破动力关键技术的目标迈出了坚实的一步。


WS-13B is better than AL-31F

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## Akasa

aliaselin said:


> WS-13B is better than AL-31F



Got any information regarding the PLA's next generation MBT?


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## aliaselin

SinoSoldier said:


> Got any information regarding the PLA's next generation MBT?





> 1、信息实时化和信息资源共享能力；
> 2、制导弹药为主弹种，直瞄和间瞄结合，反坦克与反空中目标能力结合；
> 3、自重40吨左右，能够空地结合机动，时速达到95km左右；
> 4、软防为主、拦截为辅、装甲为基本。

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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> Got any information regarding the PLA's next generation MBT?


Dont be hype by Russian Amata. Next generation tank is still useless. Aircraft is more practical, fast and carries large number of payload to strike enemies rapidly.

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## aliaselin

> 某型发动机改进升级后首飞成功
> 标志着我国航空发动机研制水平有了进一步提升
> 2015-04-28 09:44 中国航空新闻网 通讯员 胡汉哲 我要评论0
> 
> 中国航空新闻网讯：4月23日，经过重大改进、升级后的某型发动机，由中航工业试飞中心中国试飞员学院试飞员杨百兴、高卫东在试飞中心首飞成功，这标志着我国航空发动机研制水平有了进一步提升 。
> 
> 据该型发动机试飞总师介绍，该型发动机于2014年10月基本完成设计定型试飞。此次改进升级，主要有两大亮点，一是采用了现代航空最前沿的许多新技术、新设备，特别是对发动机的控制、显示等系统进行了重大改进升级，对于发动机操作、控制等方面来说，可以说是一次质的飞跃。二是，以往发动机试飞，通常采用一台原机发动机，搭载一台新发动机，而此次试飞，同时搭载两台改进升级后的新发动机，不仅是通过大量的地面试验和科学的论证评审，也表明了设计、型号等人员对该型发动机可靠性的充分自信。
> 
> 为了顺利完成任务，承担该型发动机试飞的试飞中心试飞员学院挑选了技术能力强、具有丰富经验的试飞员承担该项任务，并对他们进行了理论改装、座舱实习及考试，对风险点进行了分析，制定了应急处置程序。
> 
> 据该型发动机试飞员杨百兴介绍，此次试飞非常顺利、圆满，发动机各项参数正常稳定。此次改进升级，使发动机的启动、关车等程序比以前更加简单、便捷、自动化程度更高，各显示系统更加直观，大大的减少了机组操作程序。



WZ10 is on the last step to finalize design

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## Martian2

China's indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine is an engineering marvel. It doesn't smoke. This means there is no oil leaking into the engine's combustion chamber. This requires perfect machining of aerospace parts to ensure no oil can leak through an imperfect gap. This requires a 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tool.

Interestingly, recent Russian AL-31 engines are almost smokeless. The older AL-31 engines were very smoky. How do we explain this sudden improvement in Russian Al-31 engines? I postulate that the older model AL-31 engines are still being built with older Russian machine tools. I believe the new almost-smokeless Russian AL-31 engines are being built with Chinese 7 to 35-micron five-axis CNC machine tools.

Russia had to wait until China became a serious industrial power to import restricted micron-level five-axis CNC machine tools. The US prohibits the sale of high-performance five-axis CNC machine tools to Russia and China for military use.
----------

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force | Manufacturing and Technology News

*"There are six American companies dedicated to producing five-axis machine tools, and at least 20 in China. Five-axis tools are used for the production of precision components in the aerospace industry...."*






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*China produces a 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tool.*

Critical Technology Assessment: Five Axis Simultaneous Control Machine Tools (p. 48)

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## C130

that's pretty bad. having to deal with crappy russian engines, now you can produce your own


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## kuge

let see if the used engines smoke after 5yrs of operation...


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## CAPRICORN-88

kuge said:


> let see if the used engines smoke after 5yrs of operation...


I can understand what Martian2 is trying to say but what is your point in your single liner?

A smokeless engine can only means 2 thing - the state-of-art metallurgy resulting in higher operation temperature and precision machining.

RMAF SU-30MKM has been smoking since the day they were inducted in the service.

Now only 5 out of 18 SU-30MKM are only fully operational at any one time, the rest are waiting for spareparts, etc.



CAPRICORN-88 said:


> I can understand what Martian2 is trying to say but what is your point in your single liner?
> 
> A smokeless engine can only means 2 thing - the state-of-art metallurgy resulting in higher operation temperature and precision machining.
> 
> RMAF SU-30MKM has been smoking since the day they were inducted in the service.
> 
> Now only 5 out of 18 SU-30MKM are only fully operational at any one time, the rest are waiting for spareparts, etc.



A dated article nevertheless relevant to our limited understanding of China Aviation Industries. 

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly


*China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine*

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".






AL-31being manufactured by UFA Engine Production Association (UMPO) AG. This is Russia's largest aero engine development and production companies, with 20,000 employees.

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## razgriz19

ahh I'm no expert when it comes to engineering, but i did graduate from an aircraft maintenance program. 
And i have spent my share of time around airplanes, you can by my DP.

engine smoke isn't entirely based on metallurgy or precision tools to make the parts, its also about understanding the gas path, finding better ways for uniform combustion. A lot of the smoke is just unburnt fuel, and you get that when the nozzles are dirty, interruption in the airflow, fuel not being atomize properly, etc etc

Point being is its a combination of things, and the Chinese are definitely catching up to the west in all departments

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## CAPRICORN-88

Yes. You are absolutely right... I should have added among others. 

But the Russian made AL31 is a widely used and proven powerplant.

So does that means that the WS-10X series is better designed than AL-31, omitting my 2 earlier points?

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## unleashed

Good for our JF.
Jalne waloon ka muon kalla..

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## Mohammad Ryan Farooqi

How much time does it take to make one as compared to a regular J-35


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## Manindra

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> I can understand what Martian2 is trying to say but what is your point in your single liner?
> 
> A smokeless engine can only means 2 thing - the state-of-art metallurgy resulting in higher operation temperature and precision machining.
> 
> RMAF SU-30MKM has been smoking since the day they were inducted in the service.
> 
> Now only 5 out of 18 SU-30MKM are only fully operational at any one time, the rest are waiting for spareparts, etc.


RMAF operates the same identical flanker version as operated by Indian Air Force .
Our MKI does smoke & I have not seen RMAF MKM smoke during flying.
Can you provide picture of it.







> The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.
> 
> The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - *from 900 to 1,500 flight hours*, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).


AL-31 FP engine life is already 1500 hrs.
AL-31FN is not such old engine then why its only 900 hrs ?


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## kuge

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> I can understand what Martian2 is trying to say but what is your point in your single liner?
> 
> A smokeless engine can only means 2 thing - the state-of-art metallurgy resulting in higher operation temperature and precision machining.
> 
> RMAF SU-30MKM has been smoking since the day they were inducted in the service.
> 
> Now only 5 out of 18 SU-30MKM are only fully operational at any one time, the rest are waiting for spareparts, etc.



i m saying let see if the engine emits smoke after 5 years or more due to wear & tear & maintenance quality.


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## CAPRICORN-88

Manindra said:


> RMAF operates the same identical flanker version as operated by Indian Air Force .
> Our MKI does smoke & I have not seen RMAF MKM smoke during flying.
> Can you provide picture of it.


Nope but I did seen it with my own eyes. So seeing is believing.

QUOTE="Manindra, post: 7554047, member: 143441"]
AL-31 FP engine life is already 1500 hrs.
AL-31FN is not such old engine then why its only 900 hrs ?[/QUOTE]
It is strange that you guys keep quoting a figure of 1500 hrs for the AL-31FP when the IAF themselves officially confirmed it at 1000 hrs.

*The Rusting Sukhoi Dips India’s Fighting Fleet *
By PRADIP R Sagar

Published: 14th Dec 2014

NEW DELHI: Russian President Vladimir Putin’s recent India visit may have strengthened the ties between the two countries, but it’s still a question if it can resurrect India’s weakened fleet of Sukhois.

You can avoid the servicing of your car, but you can’t afford to do that with the country’s frontline Russian-made fighter jet fleet. The government, however, has done exactly that. Consequence: four air crashes and one death. The last Sukhoi-30 crash happened in Pune, in October, which led to the grounding of the entire fleet for a month, the longest ever it was inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) since 1997, for maintenance checks.

Statistically speaking, the government has spent a whopping `2,263 crore in the last three years on repair and maintenance of its fleet of 200 Sukhois.

Details of the sorry state of affairs of the Sukhoi-30 fleet are now tumbling out. An internal audit carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at the behest of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has revealed there have been six cases of engine oil leak from aircraft accessory gear box—all arising out of poor quality control. The aircraft and gear boxes are under warranty, and the matter has been brought up with the Russians.

IAF sources told The Sunday Standard that the fleet has also faced several mid-air engine failure incidents in the past two years. IAF chief Arup Raha even admitted recently that the IAF’s Sukhoi fleet has maintenance issues which are being rectified.

Internal audit was carried out at the Sukhoi Engines Maintenance Division in Koraput, Odisha, which was set up in 2007 to overhaul engines of the Su-30 Mki, ever since the Russian jets were inducted into IAF in 1997. The Sukhoi engine maintenance plant has so far claimed to have overhauled over than 150 engines of Su-30.

The internal audit has also found various ineffective quality control systems. “Unclear documents, translation errors, deviations of actual part dimensions from the laid down technology limits, non-user-friendly and complex reference of technology have led to frequent updates and clarifications from the original equipment manufacturers,” the internal audit has pointed out.

Surprisingly, the Russian manufacturer has not been able to provide the HAL maintenance team a detailed translated manual from Russian to English. While disclosing shortcomings in the Transfer of Technology (ToT), the audit team has observed that “more than 4,000 change notices have been issued by the OEM (original equipment manufacturer), which is an indicator of severe shortcomings in the ToT.”

The Sukhoi-30 fleet was grounded for a month after the Pune incident. Sources said the main problem stems from “unresolved issues pertaining to repair and overhaul” between India and Russia, because of which maintenance of the fighter aircraft fleet has been suffering.

Sources added that because of mounting complaints, IAF HAS STARTED SERVICING THE ENGINES OF THESE FIGHTER JETS AFTER 700 FLYING HOURS, INSTEAD OF THE STIPULATED 1000 hours. Moreover, as a precautionary measure, “the engines are also being modified according to specifications provided by the Russian manufacturer. The engineering is being handled in Odisha by HAL.” IAF’s fleet of over 200 Sukhoi aircraft represents almost one third of India’s fighter jet fleet. While the aircraft are based at Bathinda, Halwara, Sirsa, Bareilly, Jodhpur and Bhuj in the North and West, its two squadrons are based at Tezpur and Chabua in the East.

Su-30MKI enjoys air superiority because of its engines. In horizontal flight, it can fly at 2,400 kmph or achieve a rate of climb of 230 metres per second.

The audit has also come down heavily on Sukhoi maintenance division for poor performance, which ultimately forced the IAF to depend on Russian engineers for the fighter jets’ repair and maintenance despite substantial money that has been spent in setting up repair and overhaul facility at HAL, Koraput.

“Corrective measures taken by the Sukhoi engine division were found to be very generic in nature, with very little emphasis on addressing the root cause,” the audit says. During the audit, it emerged that there is no system in place to ensure that all the publications supplied by the Russian manufacturers are updated as per the latest amendments received from time to time in the form of bulletins or change notices.

When contacted, neither the MoD nor the HAL responded to The Sunday Standard for clarification.

But an official of the Sukhoi engine division, Odisha, said on condition of anonymity, “Yes, there were some inherent design deficiencies in the technology provided by the Russian manufacturers, which are being raised constant with them. Translation errors in the manual were also noticed. But, the IAF is taking some of the corrective measures as advised by the Russians.”



kuge said:


> i m saying let see if the engine emits smoke after 5 years or more due to wear & tear & maintenance quality.



LOL That would depends on how well these engines are maintained,don't you agree? 

But I still do not get your point on the above or the earlier post.? 

One personal observation is Russian jet fighters do emit more visible exhaust smokes than most other made. 

Martian2 statement that "Interestingly, recent Russian AL-31 engines are almost smokeless." is worth researching into.



Mohammad Ryan Farooqi said:


> How much time does it take to make one as compared to a regular J-35



China is already testing a world class LBP WS-15 engine and it ought to be ready for initial mass production by latest 2017.


I will post an interesting article by Martin on the WorldDefense Forum back in June, 20, 2012 on the issue of high bypass ratio for non-supercruising F-35 and low bypass ratio for supercruising F-22 and J-20.

*World Turbofan Aircraft Engines*

19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.

18 tons of wet thrust
18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.

15 tons of wet thrust
15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.

15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)

14 tons of wet thrust
14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)

13 tons of wet thrust
13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)

13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)

12 tons of wet thrust
12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)

8 tons of wet thrust
8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)

7 tons of wet thrust
7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)

----------

References:

F135 (US): Pratt & Whitney F135 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-15 (China): WS15
WS-15
F119 (US): F119-PW-100
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-10G (China): J-15 (Jianjiji-15 Fighter aircraft 15) / F-15
Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-41F (Russia): Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-10A (China): Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-31FM1 (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-31FN (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
EJ200 (European consortium): Eurojet EJ200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M88-2 (France): Snecma M88
Snecma M88 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------

Citation for high bypass turbofans and subsonic speed from Global Security.

Military Aviation Engines

"High bypass turbofans, meaning bypass ratios in the range of 5 to 9, power virtually all transports designed to cruise at high subsonic speeds. High bypass ratio engines provide increased takeoff thrust, low environmental noise, and low specific fuel consumption. The development of the first high bypass ratio turbofans, the TF39 for the C-5A and the JT9D for the Boeing 747, required nearly doubling the cycle pressure ratio from the 12:1 of the JT3/J79 series of jets, and increasing the turbine inlet temperature.

The newest high bypass turbofans have cycle pressure ratios greater than 40:1 and have been made possible by advancements in high temperature materials and cooling technology. In a general sense, increases in hot section materials capability and turbine cooling techniques have paced the development of high pressure ratio engines. Today, turbofans range in size from small missile engines by Teledyne and Williams International, to behemoths in the 100,000 pound thrust class for large transports."

Secondary citation on high bypass ratio turbofan engine:

Overall pressure ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Military engines are often forced to work under conditions that maximize the heating load. For instance, the General Dynamics F-111 was required to operate at speeds of Mach 1.1 at sea level. As a side-effect of these wide operating conditions, and generally older technology in most cases, military engines typically have lower overall pressure ratios. The Pratt & Whitney TF30 used on the F-111 had a pressure ratio of about 20:1, while *newer engines like the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F135 have improved this to about 30:1.*

An additional issue is weight: a higher compression ratio implies a heavier engine, which in turn costs fuel to carry around. Thus, for a particular construction technology and set of flight plans an optimal overall pressure ratio can be determined."

[Note: Thank you to ChineseTiger1986 for highlighting the issue of high bypass ratio for non-supercruising F-35 and low bypass ratio for supercruising F-22 and J-20.]

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## Manindra

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Nope but I did seen it with my own eyes. So seeing is believing.
> 
> 
> It is strange that you guys keep quoting a figure of 1500 hrs for the AL-31FP when the IAF themselves officially confirmed it at 1000 hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> Sources added that because of mounting complaints,* IAF HAS STARTED SERVICING THE ENGINES OF THESE FIGHTER JETS AFTER 700 FLYING HOURS, INSTEAD OF THE STIPULATED 1000 hours.* Moreover, as a precautionary measure, “the engines are also being modified according to specifications provided by the Russian manufacturer. The engineering is being handled in Odisha by HAL.” IAF’s fleet of over 200 Sukhoi aircraft represents almost one third of India’s fighter jet fleet. While the aircraft are based at Bathinda, Halwara, Sirsa, Bareilly, Jodhpur and Bhuj in the North and West, its two squadrons are based at Tezpur and Chabua in the East.



You are quoting MBTO (Mean-Time-Between-Overhaul) figure which is 1000 hrs for AL-31FP but IAF do on 700 hrs due to tropical condition to prevent any mishap.
AL-31FP total engine life us 1500 hrs after that it would replaced by new engine.


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## Martian2

*The only explanation is Chinese 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tools to manufacture smokeless Chinese WS-10A turbofan engines.*

In the video screen-shot below, a squadron of Russian Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.






Also, Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.
----------

In contrast, China's first indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine has zero smoke (see two-minute video below).





How do you explain the discrepancy between the smoky Russian AL-31 turbofan engines and China's smoke-free WS-10A turbofan engine? What does China have that Russia lacks?

The only explanation is China's production and use of 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tools. Chinese machine tools are just as good as American ones. Thus, both countries have smoke-free turbofan engines.

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## Al-Taïr

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> *World Turbofan Aircraft Engines*
> F-22 and J-20.]


Is there any engine in the market with about 10ton thrust vectoring, & no supercruise. ?


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## CAPRICORN-88

Al-Taïr said:


> Is there any engine in the market with about 10ton thrust vectoring, & no supercruise. ?


Perhaps not exactly 10 tons. Lesser or more.

The Chengdu Gas Turbine Research Institute revealed at the 2008 Airshow China in Zhuhai, it was developing a 9.5 ton-thrust turbofan and even display a model.

This could be WS-12X turbofan. Maybe it is intended for the J-21 or 31 stealth fighter. Little is known about the development of this engine at this point. Some says it is cancelled but I am pretty sure, the development is still going on based on what we read.

But it seems that they are also developing another 8.7 tons turbofan designated WS-13 and that will be tested on future JF-17 to replace the Russian powerplant.

No idea whether it can propel JF-17 for supercruise or not. 3D thrust-vectoring is not new to China but based on RMAF experience, the thrust vectoring nozzle has very short and limited lifespan. They needed to be replaced after 150 hours.

Right now, PAF appeared to be satisfied with the Klimov RD-93 that is installed on the JF-17.






Delivery Ceremony for the FORGING parts of WS-15 by  Xian Hong Yuan Aviation Forging & Casting Industry Company way back in 2006. So the testing for WS-15 program should be quite mature by today.

This morning I witnessed smokes being emitted by the low flying SU-30MKM performing the pre-Merdeka Day rehearsal. These are not contrail because I can easily see the black color smoke.

I am surprised that all the 4 low flying RMAF USA made F-18 also emitted black smokes as well.

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## Al-Taïr

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> 3D thrust-vectoring is not new to China but based on RMAF experience, the thrust vectoring nozzle has very short and limited lifespan. They needed to be replaced after 150 hours.
> 
> Right now, PAF appeared to be satisfied with the Klimov RD-93 that is installed on the JF-17.



1..I would be a sight to see 3D tvn in thunder. . & i wonder if thunder would be able to outperform F-16 in dog fight ..
2..Right now PAF is not using AESA, & no twin seat.. I am no expert but this two upgrades alone will effect t/w (let alone other avionics stuff). & under 1 t/w for a jet that performs under par when it comes to bvr... Thats just plain bad.. 
. They need a more powerfull engine.


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## aliaselin

> QC280/QD 280 燃 气 否 49,957.76 2,765.89 43,463.72 是 99.12% 3,987 是 根据公司第七届董 事会第五次会议决


Second production line of QC280 has finished 99.12%


> 三代中等 推力航空 发动机生 产线建设 项目 否 96,123.84 6,415.36 49,213.99 否 51.20% 10,309 当前为建设期，收 益无法计算。


WS-13 production line has finished 51.2%


> 日前，在四川江油“高空台”，某型发动机历经了一个多月的调试、排故，终于顺利完成试车。中航工业董事长林左鸣亲临试车现场，慰问参试人员，并为中航工业发动机总经理庞为以及动力所所长李宏新、副总师李泳凡等6人颁发了“航空报国金奖”。
> 
> 林左鸣详细了解了某型发动机研制情况，并对动力所某型发动机研制取得的成果给予了高度评价，林左鸣说：“自某型发动机立项后，中航工业动力所在项目研制过程中勇于承担、努力拼搏、攻坚克难，取得了累累硕果。”
> 
> 在场人员倍受鼓舞，更是深感责任重大。某型发动机研制团队立志在日后的研制工作中继续攻坚克难，再创佳绩。


This may be the most important news of the year

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## aliaselin

> 随着某重点型号发动机研制工作的进行，在发动机与飞机对接过程中出现了结构干涉问题。为解决这一问题，主机所对公司的多型作动器提出改型设计要求。装机工作刻不容缓、空间结构紧凑有限，改型设计的攻关战已经打响，改进升级的任务迫在眉睫。对于久经沙场的队员们来说，这早已司空见惯


14T WS-10 is tested on fighter



> 作为我国为某飞机配套的首次新研的串联式涡轮冲压组合发动机项目，没有可借鉴的先例，但却难不住他们这些敢打硬仗、勇于挑战的团队成员。


Turbine based combined cycle(TBCC) engine is on development

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## aliaselin

> 当一枚白色火箭从大漠深处拔地而起，与无垠的蓝天交相辉映成一幅美丽的画面时，试验场上，中国航天科技集团公司四院试验队员沸腾了。该院科研团队经过长期的矢志创新和刻苦攻关，自主研发的某新型冲压发动机攻克了多项关键技术难关，终于获得成功，使我国在该领域达到国际先进水平。


Solid-fuel flow-variable ramjet has been successfully tested

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## cirr

aliaselin said:


> Solid-fuel flow-variable ramjet has been successfully tested



CASC's solid-fuel scramjet。。。

Liquid-fuel scramjet was first flight-tested by CASIC in 2012.

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## aliaselin

cirr said:


> CASC's solid-fuel scramjet。。。
> 
> Liquid-fuel scramjet was first flight-tested by CASIC in 2012.


Actually not. This news has talked about the biggest hurdle of the research is valve, so it may talk about a ramjet which is to be used by PL-21

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## cirr

aliaselin said:


> Actually not. This news has talked about the biggest hurdle of the research is valve, so it may talk about a ramjet which is to be used by PL-21



Absolutely not。

This tech will be used to develop，among other things，a Mach 6+ hypersonic cruise missile which should be operationally deployable before or by 2020，as per the ”Plan“。

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## aliaselin

cirr said:


> Absolutely not。
> 
> This tech will be used to develop，among other things，a Mach 6+ hypersonic cruise missile which should be operationally deployable before or by 2020，as per the ”Plan“。





> 2012年，由该院承担的国内首次可变流量固体冲压发动机，在试验新区自由射流试验台成功地进行了试验，多项重大预研演示试验任务全面完成，多项关键技术攻关取得阶段性突破;主动引射高空模拟试验台建成，主要设施相继建成并投入使用，试验新区已全面具备试验条件。


The plan you talked about is implemented by CASIC the 3rd instutituon，not CASC the 4th institution

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## ChineseTiger1986

@Martian2

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> @Martian2
> 
> View attachment 256130




No ... again and again ! The J-20 uses AL-31FN in a slightly modified version, but surely not a TH-derivate !

You can clearly see the length of the pedals is longer, their number is different, even the different sections is different (but the same on the WS-10-versions).

And even more the WS-10B cannot fit on a Flanker since it has its gearbox on the bottom similar to all western engines as well as the AL-31NF ... a Flanker can only use a WS-10A or these newer A-models with that black section. However IMO they are the same - since interchangeable - and maybe only build from a different material.

Deino

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## Viper0011.

C130 said:


> that's pretty bad. having to deal with crappy russian engines, now you can produce your own



Holly smoke!!! Literally . Talk about an environment footprint . A thousand Migs like these will destroy the entire Ozone layer and Aliens from the Sun will attack us with their UV guns!!!



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> @Martian2
> 
> View attachment 256130



10G is being optimized for TVC it seems like? Many fins and controls to support TVC are visible.....is that the plan behind the "G" series?


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## Deino

There is no WS-10G operationally flying ... and not even with TVC !

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## ChineseTiger1986

AL-31 or WS-10?









Viper0011. said:


> 10G is being optimized for TVC it seems like? Many fins and controls to support TVC are visible.....is that the plan behind the "G" series?



We just have to wait the official confirmation.

BTW, here is the TVC nozzle used by the J-20.

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> AL-31 or WS-10?
> 
> View attachment 256258
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We just have to wait the official confirmation.
> 
> BTW, here is the TVC nozzle used by the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 256272




No, surely not ... this images shows an TVC-nozzle of a design (not even sure if a Chinese) but that image was already shown when we just heard the first rumours about a possible WS-10 & J-10 in the late 1990s.

Deino

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> China's indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine is an engineering marvel. It doesn't smoke. This means there is no oil leaking into the engine's combustion chamber. This requires perfect machining of aerospace parts to ensure no oil can leak through an imperfect gap. This requires a 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tool.



The main issue that causes smoke is incomplete combustion of the fuel, not oil ingestion.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> No, surely not ... this images shows an TVC-nozzle of a design (*not even sure if a Chinese*) but that image was already shown when we just heard the first rumours about a possible WS-10 & J-10 in the late 1990s.
> 
> Deino



That's Chinese, the Russian one has the sealed external flap like this.







BTW, you still haven't answered by question, the first pic has AL-31 or WS-10?

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## razgriz19

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The main issue that causes smoke is incomplete combustion of the fuel, not oil ingestion.



Correct. In efficient combustion = black smoke
Oil burning = white smoke, mostly at start ups as the oil drips down from the bearings to the engine case during the last shut down.


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## Martian2

Okay. That shifts the culprit from oil leaking into the combustion chamber to incomplete burning of the jet fuel inside the combustion chamber.

The problem is still the same. Imperfectly machined Russian parts.

Do to the lack of precise micron-level CNC five-axis machine tools, the Russian components inside the combustion chamber are unable to meet the necessary tolerances to enable clean combustion like China's WS-10A and American turbofan jet engines.

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> ...BTW, here is the TVC nozzle used by the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 256272



Again to this AVEN nozzle ... I searched thru my hard-drive and found these two images both dated long-long before we ever got notice of the J-20: first in 2001 and then in 2006. Even more that nozzle looks completely different !


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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> Again to this AVEN nozzle ... I searched thru my hard-drive and found these two images both dated long-long before we ever got notice of the J-20: first in 2001 and then in 2006. Even more that nozzle looks completely different !
> 
> View attachment 256447
> View attachment 256448



BTW, that's not the US TVC nozzle, you can notice the dot on the flap, while the Chinese one doesn't have.

Anyway, you should answer my question about the first pic of the post #21, it is AL-31 or WS-10?

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> BTW, that's not the US TVC nozzle, you can notice the dot on the flap, while the Chinese one doesn't have.
> 
> Anyway, you should answer my question about the first pic of the post #21, it is AL-31 or WS-10?




I never said that is an US nozzle ... I found it at first in 2001 and later again in 2006, so it is surely not the J-20's engines.

Regarding Your question, that's indeed a WS-10A fitted to a J-11B Block 2 or later ... however it is not related to TVC !

Deino


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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> I never said that is an US nozzle ... I found it at first in 2001 and later again in 2006, so it is surely not the J-20's engines.
> 
> Regarding Your question, that's indeed a WS-10A fitted to a J-11B Block 2 or later ... however it is not related to TVC !
> 
> Deino



Dude, you should stop arguing with me, instead you should go to argue with CCTV, but they have already confirmed that the engine used by the J-20 prototype 2001 was the WS-10B.

http://www.tudou.com/v/-dfey0NEjxY/&resourceId=0_04_02_99/v.swf

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dude, you should stop arguing with me, instead you should go to argue with CCTV, but they have already confirmed that the engine used by the J-20 prototype 2001 was the WS-10B.
> 
> http://www.tudou.com/v/-dfey0NEjxY/&resourceId=0_04_02_99/v.swf



And You should think instead of simply repeating what an un-informed reporter reports in a TV-show !

Regardless what they tell, the facts simply speak against a WS-10B ! ... even more for the image You posted.
As such please stick to the facts and not to wish-full thinking and even more don't mix Your arguments:

- Your image simply can't be a WS-10B since it is an old one (older than 2001 !)
- It is not related to the WS-10A on a Flanker in Your request and even less to any US engine.
- Altogether You posted three completely different engines /a standard WS-10A, the AL-31FN on a J-20, that strange TVC-nozzle from 2001 ... and now You tell me 2016 uses a WS-10B ! without any clear image and three other different engines. What kind of logic is this ?
- regardless what that report (by the way I can't open that link) tells, You posted the nozzle of one of the earlier J-20 prototypes and they were clearly powered by an AL-31FN ... even if I won't exclude that 2016 uses indeed a new engine.

As such what all that mess .... ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> And You should think instead of simply repeating what an un-informed reporter reports in a TV-show !
> 
> Regardless what they tell, the facts simply speak against a WS-10B ! ... even more for the image You posted.
> As such please stick to the facts and not to wish-full thinking and even more don't mix Your arguments:
> 
> - Your image simply can't be a WS-10B since it is an old one (older than 2001 !)
> - It is not related to the WS-10A on a Flanker in Your request and even less to any US engine.
> - Altogether You posted three completely different engines /a standard WS-10A, the AL-31FN on a J-20, that strange TVC-nozzle from 2001 ... and now You tell me 2016 uses a WS-10B ! without any clear image and three other different engines. What kind of logic is this ?
> - regardless what that report (by the way I can't open that link) tells, You posted the nozzle of one of the earlier J-20 prototypes and they were clearly powered by an AL-31FN ... even if I won't exclude that 2016 uses indeed a new engine.
> 
> As such what all that mess .... ?



Well, go to tell everyone that CCTV has lied, since it is nothing but commie propaganda.

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## ChineseTiger1986

One picture speaks more than million words.

China first got the prototype of the TVC nozzle since 1998.

@Martian2 @Beast

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## Martian2

1. I think most of the western publications are leaning towards the idea that both engine types on the J-20 are Russian.

2. There is still room for uncertainty. No one is 100% sure. The silver-nozzle variant has features that point in different directions. You can argue petal numbers (pointing toward Russian) or nozzle shape (pointing toward Chinese).

3. China is constantly upgrading its technology. New engine variants are being tested. We usually find out a few years after the fact.

4. Most of the western publications have stated that China will use a WS-10 variant or the WS-15 in the production version of the J-20.

In my view, I prefer to wait until the production version. It's only two to three years away. All of the ambiguities will disappear.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Martian2 said:


> 1. I think most of the western publications are leaning towards the idea that both engine types on the J-20 are Russian.
> 
> 2. There is still room for uncertainty. No one is 100% sure. The silver-nozzle variant has features that point in different directions. You can argue petal numbers (pointing toward Russian) or nozzle shape (pointing toward Chinese).
> 
> 3. China is constantly upgrading its technology. New engine variants are being tested. We usually find out a few years after the fact.
> 
> 4. Most of the western publications have stated that China will use a WS-10 variant or the WS-15 in the production version of the J-20.
> 
> In my view, I prefer to wait until the production version. It's only two to three years away. All of the ambiguities will disappear.



CCTV has already disclosed the fact that the engine is the WS-10B, yet they are still considered unreliable?

If CCTV is unreliable about China's own equipment, then I don't know who else can be.

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## Martian2

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> CCTV has already disclosed the fact that the engine is the WS-10B, yet they are still considered unreliable?
> 
> If CCTV is unreliable about China's own equipment, then I don't know who else can be.


I didn't know CCTV (ie. China Central Television) disclosed that information.

By the time China's official television makes a claim, it's fairly reliable.

If CCTV is making the claim then it probably is a WS-10B.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Martian2 said:


> I didn't know CCTV (ie. China Central Television) disclosed that information.
> 
> By the time China's official television makes a claim, it's fairly reliable.
> 
> If CCTV is making the claim then it probably is a WS-10B.



CCTV has done that more than once.

They have also invited the PLA military expert to some TV show.

And the PLA expert clearly stated the J-20 has tested with the indigenous engine, but the J-31 clearly uses the Russian engine.

These information are quite hard to be accessed by the non-Chinese speaking people.

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> Okay. That shifts the culprit from oil leaking into the combustion chamber to incomplete burning of the jet fuel inside the combustion chamber.
> 
> The problem is still the same. Imperfectly machined Russian parts.
> 
> Do to the lack of precise micron-level CNC five-axis machine tools, the Russian components inside the combustion chamber are unable to meet the necessary tolerances to enable clean combustion like China's WS-10A and American turbofan jet engines.



It is not as simple as just the precision of machining. Combustion chamber design and the software to control it all play major roles as well.


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## Martian2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It is not as simple as just the precision of machining. Combustion chamber design and the software to control it all play major roles as well.


Come on. The Russians have been building turbofan engines for decades. You're claiming they don't know how to design a proper combustion chamber? Yet, China designed a perfect combustion chamber on its first try in the WS-10A? That's extremely unlikely.

Software? Russians don't know how to program? Once again, extremely unlikely.

It has to be something critical that the Russians lack. It's not combustion chamber design or software. It's incredibly precise five-axis CNC micron-level machine tools. It's a high-technology gap, not an understanding of combustion chambers or software application. If it was combustion chamber design or a software problem, the Russians would have kept improving until they fixed the problem.

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> Come on. The Russians have been building turbofan engines for decades. You're claiming they don't know how to design a proper combustion chamber? Yet, China designed a perfect combustion chamber on its first try in the WS-10A? That's extremely unlikely.
> 
> Software? Russians don't know how to program? Once again, extremely unlikely.
> 
> It has to be something critical that the Russians lack. It's not combustion chamber design or software. It's incredibly precise five-axis CNC micron-level machine tools.



The Chinese engines are not as good as you are making them out to be, even the latest ones. They are at about the same level as the Russian engines, and both are well behind Western designs.


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## Martian2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The Chinese engines are not as good as you as making them out to be, even the latest ones. They are at about the same level as the Russian engines, and both are well behind Western designs.


Did you bother reading the original post?

The Chinese WS-10A engine does not smoke. The video is two minutes long.

Russian engines smoke. This is a problem during WVR. The enemy pilot can easily track a Russian fighter by following the smoke.

In terms of visual stealth, the Chinese WS-10A engine is clearly superior to Russian engines. The question is why? I think it's five-axis CNC micron-precision machine tools.

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> Did you bother reading the original post?
> 
> The Chinese WS-10A engine does not smoke. The video is two minutes long.
> 
> Russian engines smoke.
> 
> In terms of visual stealth, the Chinese WS-10A engine is clearly superior to Russian engines. The question is why? I think it's five-axis CNC micron-precision machine tools.



The WS-10A smokes too.


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## Martian2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The WS-10A smokes too.


Watch the video. The WS-10A smokes very little in comparison to Russian engines.

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> Watch the video. The WS-10A smokes very little in comparison to Russian engines.



It does smoke, and it takes far more than just a video to determine such performance, specially in sudden throttle and flight transitions.


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## Martian2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It does smoke, and it takes far more than just a video to determine such performance, specially in sudden throttle and flight transitions.


You're delusional. Believe whatever you want.

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## VCheng

Martian2 said:


> You're delusional. Believe whatever you want.



My beliefs are formed only on the basis of facts, and thank you for the permission to make up my own mind, although I did not need it in the first place.

The Chinese engines are indeed improving quite rapidly, but they remain well behind the curve.


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## Akasa

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It does smoke, and it takes far more than just a video to determine such performance, specially in sudden throttle and flight transitions.



To be honest, I've never seen an AL-31 smoke.

The selling point of Russian engines over Chinese ones is their relatively brief spool-up time.


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## ChineseTiger1986

SinoSoldier said:


> To be honest, I've never seen an AL-31 smoke.
> 
> The selling point of Russian engines over Chinese ones is their relatively brief spool-up time.



The AL-31F is better to takeoff from the ski-jump carrier than the WS-10H.

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## Martian2

Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.

Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.

In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Martian2 said:


> 1. I think most of the western publications are leaning towards the idea that both engine types on the J-20 are Russian.
> 
> 2. There is still room for uncertainty. No one is 100% sure. The silver-nozzle variant has features that point in different directions. You can argue petal numbers (pointing toward Russian) or nozzle shape (pointing toward Chinese).
> 
> 3. China is constantly upgrading its technology. New engine variants are being tested. We usually find out a few years after the fact.
> 
> 4. Most of the western publications have stated that China will use a WS-10 variant or the WS-15 in the production version of the J-20.
> 
> In my view, I prefer to wait until the production version. It's only two to three years away. All of the ambiguities will disappear.



 It does not required a rocket scientists to figure that out. Apart from the diameter, all one has to do is to listen to the sound of both the engines - AL31F is particularly high pitch while the engines currently tested on the J-20 sound more like one with a higher bypass.

The size of the petals used to be a good indicative guide but with the introduction of the longer black nozzle for the latest Taihang engine, it is no longer the case.

I agree with you, the pace which China has assimilated and evolved the technology is amazing, it has been at the turning point since 2009 following the breakthrough.Time will be the best witness e.g. J-10.



Martian2 said:


> Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.
> 
> Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.
> 
> In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.



I agree with you. All Russian engines are smoky. The RD series engine on the JF-17 are very smoky. Although Russians are great aeronautical engineers and designers but they are let down by their obsolescent military complex.
e.g. IAF complained of midair stalling of the engines on its Russian MiG as well as Sukhoi, Russian radar constant blackout during flight.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Yes, the WS-10 has higher bypass ratio than the AL-31, and hopefully the coming WS-15 could have a lower one.

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## CAPRICORN-88

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The AL-31F is better to takeoff from the ski-jump carrier than the WS-10H.



I think the reason they are fitting those test J-15 with AL-31F is because they have to use up the surplus stock of the engines they have ordered.

WS10H has high thrust than conventional WS-10A and is designed to be withstand the corrosive effect of the sea.

Yes. AL31F is known to spool up faster but that is not a relevant factor for take-off.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It is not as simple as just the precision of machining. Combustion chamber design and the software to control it all play major roles as well.



If you truly understand how difficult it is to manufacture an aero-engine then you should also understand the importance of precision machining as well. 

China has plenty of brilliant software engineers and that should be the least of the problems for them. 

On the other hand if you can't produce a wonderful piece of hardware, the best software in the world is totally useless.

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## Deino

@ChineseTiger1986, .... don't get me wrong and I admire Your passion to defend Your opinion even if I disagree.
Anyway for me - maybe especially since I can't read Chinese - I need to check from various sources and if one tells this and another one that, I have to consider what could be, what could not or if undecided, what's the most likely option. Therefore all arguments I know - and I mean physical details, images and not simple reports - tell me the J-20 uses a specialised version of the AL-31FN, and surely - I would bet my membership here in this forum - not a version of the WS-10 Taihang.

Let me try to explain ...



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, go to tell everyone that CCTV has lied, since it is nothing but commie propaganda.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> CCTV has done that more than once.
> They have also invited the PLA military expert to some TV show.
> And the PLA expert clearly stated the J-20 has tested with the indigenous engine, but the J-31 clearly uses the Russian engine.
> These information are quite hard to be accessed by the non-Chinese speaking people.



First of all I don't rate this "typical commie propaganda" but I'm sure the Chinese media is not very much different today to other media: there are reporters, who write their reports, they need to collect their information from different sources - open sources mostly ! - and make their conclusion ... Honestly I can't think that the reporter who made this report sent his draft to the PLAAF's public relation department or CAC for checking the facts ... even more IMO it is in fact a certain desire for the PLA and CAC not to tell everything, not to correct all errors a reporter makes ...simply to hide the true facts.

As such - and now to Your video report - just a few notes:
- this is from a time when nearly nothing was known about the J-20 other than it flew. All images were blurry at best and not very conclusive ...
- there are even different ones also at CCTV stating that it now uses a AL-31 version ... so what's right and what is wrong ?
- regarding that PLA expert: what do You expect from a PLA expert ?? to rise the public opinion that the public could be proud of the achievements, but to hide the real secrets ... and IMO the engine of the J-20 is still one ! As such he surely will not correct the reporter and tell him that there was a secret deal with Saturn in Russia similar to the once secret deal for the J-10 for the development of a specialised version to power CHina's most important combat type. 




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> One picture speaks more than million words.
> China first got the prototype of the TVC nozzle since 1998.



That may be true ... but so far no TVC nozzle is operational and even more You posted four different nozzles of very different designs and none of them matches the details of the J-20's exhaust ... ergo, this TVC-nozzle is not fitted to the J-20 even more since all details (sans the colour) fit nicely to an AL-31FN.

Yes, You are correct ... "One picture speaks more than million words" and therefor the only conclusion drawn by "images, videos and details" is that the J-20 uses not a WS-10A, B or even G even more not with a TVC-nozzle.

Deino


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## Deino

Just a short PS in regard to the reliability of "official" CHinese media ... and not even the PLA itself is completely correct:

PLA Air Force’s J-11B fighter equipped with China-made engines

This report talks about a "J-11B fighter equipped with China-made engines" on show at Changchun... but the image clearly shows a J-11BS and no J-11B was on display on that show even more since the J-11B from the same division (1. Fighter Division / 1. Air Regiment at Anshan AB) are of batch 01 and are using the original AL-31F engines, only the J-11BS are using the WS-10A.

But that's surely nitpicking ...

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## Martian2

There are two reasons to believe the J-20 is equipped with a WS-10 variant.

1. According to ChineseTiger1986, CCTV has publicly aired a program claiming indigenous Chinese engines on the J-20.

2. The Russians, who are always quick to let the world know about the slightest Russian contribution to a Chinese project (e.g. being paid to sketch the general shape of the WZ-10 attack helicopter), have been very quiet. Everyone knows one set of engines is the AL-31. However, the Russians have not claimed ownership of the silver-nozzle variant. Hence, it is likely the silver-nozzle engines are Chinese.

In any case, we will find out in a few years. The truth will emerge eventually. China is slow in releasing information, but the details do come out.

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## Barmaley

I laughed so hard from this thread .

Not going to answer to all wrong post, but here some:



Martian2 said:


> Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.
> 
> Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.
> 
> In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.



This is Su-27 & Mig-29 squadron flying over Red Squad. You can't even identify those two fighters, lol.





Russian Knight and Strizhy are combat squadrons who's doing average training in average days. Some bullshit about "special aircraft" and other imagination sounds not very funny.




CAPRICORN-88 said:


> *World Turbofan Aircraft Engines*
> 
> 19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
> 19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
> Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.
> 
> 18 tons of wet thrust
> 18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.
> 
> 15 tons of wet thrust
> 15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.
> 
> 15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)
> 
> 14 tons of wet thrust
> 14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)
> 
> 13 tons of wet thrust
> 13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)
> 
> 13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)
> 
> 12 tons of wet thrust
> 12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)
> 
> 8 tons of wet thrust
> 8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)
> 
> 7 tons of wet thrust
> 7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)




This is the most retarded compassion i even seen, you comparing engines of different size by using wrong data as well. Also, using some data for engines which is doesn't even exist 


Also, about Chinese engines production:
In 2011 China ordered 150 engines AL-31F for Su-30 \ J-11 and signed contract for 123 AL-31FN for J-10B.

In 2012 China ordered second batch of another 140 AL-31F for Su-30\J-11.

Китай купил российских авиадвигателей на 700 миллионов долларов: Наука и техника: Lenta.ru

So yeah, chinese engines doesn't smoke, because they don't even fly.


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## Martian2

I think you missed the point. The Su-27 fighters (which are equipped with AL-31 engines) left an obvious smoke trail.

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## Barmaley

Martian2 said:


> I think you missed the point. The Su-27 fighters (which are equipped with AL-31 engines) left an obvious smoke trail.



All aircraft engines are smoking at low trust when they didn't burn fuel.

But seems like it's you who missed a point. Talking crap about Russian engines when you flying on it and claiming that it's chinese made - it's just clown behaviour.


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## Martian2

Barmaley said:


> All aircraft engines are smoking at low trust when they didn't burn fuel.
> 
> But seems like it's you who missed a point. Talking crap about Russian engines when you flying on it and claiming that it's chinese made - it's just clown behaviour.


The claim about smoky Russian engines is true.

AL-31 (on Su-27). Smoky.

RD-33 (on MiG-29). Smoky.

RD-93 (on China's J-31). Smoky.

Smoky engines are bad for two reasons. An enemy pilot can easily track a smoky aircraft within visual range. Also, incomplete combustion means a loss of maximum thrust and fuel efficiency.





Even a blind man can see that Russian engines are smoky.
----------




China's J-31 currently uses Russian RD-93 engines, which are hopelessly smoky. Everyone is waiting for China's indigenous WS-13 engine, which should be smokeless.

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## Barmaley

Martian2 said:


> The claim about smoky Russian engines is true.



Your claim is quite lame, as already tell you that EVERY engine has smoke at low trust regime. (right in the centre)





btw, China doesn't have RD-93.

Here is RD-93 engine at work.


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## CAPRICORN-88

Barmaley said:


> Your claim is quite lame, as already tell you that EVERY engine has smoke at low trust regime. (right in the centre)
> btw, China doesn't have RD-93.



 Well, Martian2's opinion or mine are not alone. Those were the observation of Western Aviation experts as well.

China doesn't have any RD-93, not even a single one. Hahaha 

OK! Mr Smart Alec, in your opinion, what powerplants are the JF-17 and Shenyang J-31 currently using then?



Barmaley said:


> I laughed so hard from this thread .
> 
> Not going to answer to all wrong post, but here some:
> 
> This is Su-27 & Mig-29 squadron flying over Red Squad. You can't even identify those two fighters, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Knight and Strizhy are combat squadrons who's doing average training in average days. Some bullshit about "special aircraft" and other imagination sounds not very funny.



That is interesting. We can't distinguish the difference between the two. 

 Some of us must be having a vision problem, how is it some of those planes are smaller in sizes?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Come on, just because it has black nozzle, it doesn't mean it is the AL-31.

The petal pattern is completely different, and the AL-31 is clearly longer.












It looks like the black nozzled WS-10X.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Barmaley said:


> I laughed so hard from this thread .
> 
> Not going to answer to all wrong post, but here some:
> 
> 
> This is the most retarded compassion i even seen, you comparing engines of different size by using wrong data as well. Also, using some data for engines which is doesn't even exist
> 
> 
> Also, about Chinese engines production:
> In 2011 China ordered 150 engines AL-31F for Su-30 \ J-11 and signed contract for 123 AL-31FN for J-10B.
> 
> In 2012 China ordered second batch of another 140 AL-31F for Su-30\J-11.
> 
> Китай купил российских авиадвигателей на 700 миллионов долларов: Наука и техника: Lenta.ru
> 
> So yeah, chinese engines doesn't smoke, because they don't even fly.



The comparison not "COMPASSION" is retarded because you don't seem to understand what others are trying to say.

Hence it is not difficult to understand why you are laughing so senselessly.

Well the data has a source, you are welcome to challenge them with your very accurate input.

We know China ordered 150 AL31F in 2011. As for the subsequent order in 2012, apart from Salyut nobody can confirmed it. So to me it was only a rumor.

As for your opinion, "Chinese engines does not fly", I bet you came to a conclusion Chinese designed aircraft does not fly as well. 

We have no problem with that. The Qinling engines on the JH-7A Feibao must be yet another Russian made engine then. As you claimed Chinese engines does not fly.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Martian2 said:


> 2. The Russians, who are always quick to let the world know about the slightest Russian contribution to a Chinese project (e.g. being paid to sketch the general shape of the WZ-10 attack helicopter), have been very quiet. Everyone knows one set of engines is the AL-31. However, the Russians have not claimed ownership of the silver-nozzle variant. Hence, it is likely the silver-nozzle engines are Chinese.



Yep, the J-31 currently uses the Russian engine, and Russia Today has just reported it with no hesitation, but not with the J-20.

China’s 5G fighter to fly Russian jet engines — RT News

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Come on, just because it has black nozzle, it doesn't mean it is the AL-31.
> 
> The petal pattern is completely different, and the AL-31 is clearly longer.
> 
> View attachment 257078
> 
> ...



No, the pedals just fit nicely ! But just compare this engine and especially its inner structure - a WS-10A on a J-11BS - with the image above !







They are completely different ... ergo, the J-20's engine simply can't be a WS-10-derivate.

Deino


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## Martian2

*Popular Science doesn't know whether J-20 "2016" engines are Chinese or Russian.*

However, everyone expects the Chengdu J-20 engines to be indigenous WS-15 engines by 2020. Thus, it doesn't really matter whether the interim engines are Chinese or Russian. The interim engines will be replaced by the finalized WS-15 engine.

Stealthier Stealth? Seventh Upgraded Chinese Stealth Fighter Prototype Aims to take Flight | Popular Science

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## cirr

At least one J-10B/C has been spotted flight-testing with the 14000kgf WS-10G。

Pics when available。

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## Bussard Ramjet

Let me admit, I am a newbie in these affairs, so please humbly correct me if wrong. 


I recently saw a video of F22 taking off, and I was enamoured by its seemingly short take off, and manoeuvring capabilities. 

Its engines also were so clean. The russian engines by comparison put out a lot of smoke. 






I think many times people get too bogged down by vary crude measures of performance like maximum thrust etc, but don't bother to look down to quality issues.


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## Deino

cirr said:


> At least one J-10B/C has been spotted flight-testing with the 14000kgf WS-10G。
> 
> Pics when available。



Here it is ... at least I would say YES !

.... but since Adam.Y was at CAC today ... he must have also seen '2016' and I'm sure there are more images to come.






There are not the same !

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## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> No, the pedals just fit nicely ! But just compare this engine and especially its inner structure - a WS-10A on a J-11BS - with the image above !
> 
> View attachment 257704
> 
> 
> They are completely different ... ergo, the J-20's engine simply can't be a WS-10-derivate.
> 
> Deino



That is a beautiful shot of the WS-10A but this is still an image of the early version short silver petals WS-10A and not the longer black noozle version which we are talking about. 

Thanks

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Here it is ... at least I would say YES !
> 
> .... but since Adam.Y was at CAC today ... he must have also seen '2016' and I'm sure there are more images to come.
> 
> View attachment 258071
> 
> 
> There are not the same !
> 
> View attachment 258080



Do you believe my insider information of J-10B needing to fit WS-10B Taihang engine? I guess the photo says a thousand words.

J-10B are just waiting for this powerful 14000KN engine to be installed before formation. @Oscar too. 

THere are tons of goodies info in Chinese language forum but you need to understand Chinese to pick the right one.

J-10B squadron is designed to compete with Typhoon and Rafale. Lacking supercruise or a powerful engine is as good as zero compare to J-10A. Just get a J-10A and fit a AESA. Why bother to make J-10B? The DSI and improved inlet is to make full advantage of the powerful WS-10B to achieved the best thrust and performance.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Do you believe my insider information of J-10B needing to fit WS-10B Taihang engine? I guess the photo says a thousand words.
> 
> J-10B are just waiting for this powerful 14000KN engine to be installed before information. @Oscar too. T
> 
> THere are tons of goodies info in Chinese language forum but you need to understand Chinese to pick the right one.
> 
> J-10B squadron is designed to compete with Typhoon and Rafale. Lacking supercruise or a powerful engine is as good as zero compare to J-10A. Just get a J-10A and fit a AESA. Why bother to make J-10B? The DSI and improved inlet is to make full advantage of the powerful WS-10B to achieved the best thrust and performance.




Indeed a good day but I never questioned the ability for the J-10B to use the TH ... I only think that the so far delivered ones are already operational with the old engine as an interim measure.

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Indeed a good day but I never questioned the ability for the J-10B to use the TH ... I only think that the so far delivered ones are already operational with the old engine as an interim measure.
> 
> Deino



The AL-31F engine is mostly installed just to speed up the operational system and airframe of J-10B squadron. PLAAF top brass insist supercruise for J-10B is a must. That is the spec for a true 4.5th fighter.

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## aliaselin

> 2014年，他主持开展了某型中小推力加力发动机研制，完成了总体技术方案制定，完成了发动机设计发图，计划2015年实现首台发动机台架试车。同时，在前期工作基础上，中小推力非加力发动机将在2015年全面完成飞行前规定试验，并计划实现首飞。


Non-afterburn version of Minshan turbofan will start to test on the plane in 2015; while the after-burn version will set to fire for ground test in 2015, too.

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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> Non-afterburn version of Minshan turbofan will start to test on the plane in 2015; while the after-burn version will set to fire for ground test in 2015, too.



It seems L-15 induction plan is screw up by Ukraine revolution. Fortunately, it will delay shortly only since Minshan engine might enter service in few years time. That is the price for supporting Russia.


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## Deino

Minshan, Minshan ... a small new turbofan ... but please just help me out !

Will it be a new - completely new - turbofan or a development of the Ukrainian Al-222-25 or Al-222-25F ?? ... and even more what WS-number will it have in service ?

Deino


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## aliaselin

Beast said:


> It seems L-15 induction plan is screw up by Ukraine revolution. Fortunately, it will delay shortly only since Minshan engine might enter service in few years time. That is the price for supporting Russia.


I have heard that it may be installed on Xianglong UAV first



Beast said:


> It seems L-15 induction plan is screw up by Ukraine revolution. Fortunately, it will delay shortly only since Minshan engine might enter service in few years time. That is the price for supporting Russia.


I have heard that it may be installed on Xianglong UAV first


Deino said:


> Minshan, Minshan ... a small new turbofan ... but please just help me out !
> 
> Will it be a new - completely new - turbofan or a development of the Ukrainian Al-222-25 or Al-222-25F ?? ... and even more what WS-number will it have in service ?
> 
> Deino


Totally different one compared to AI-222-25, with larger thrust and T/W ratio. You can find the pictures on the Internet.

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## ChineseTiger1986

It is official, the engine that used for both J-31 and UCAV is the WS-13.

But the WS-13 is just a temporary short term solution, since it was based on the Russian RD-93, that's why it is as smoky. China's long term goal is the WS-17.

Now, those so-called 'big shrimps' from CD can all commit the suicide.  China won't even use the Russian engine for the J-31, yet the J-20 would use the Russian engine?

The engine of the J-31 resembles even more Russian than the J-20 engine, yet it is not Russian.

航空报国酬壮志 长天映照赤子心

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## BATTLE FIELD

go china go beat u.s


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## Bussard Ramjet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is official, the engine that used for both J-31 and UCAV is the WS-13.
> 
> But the WS-13 is just a temporary short term solution, since it was based on the Russian RD-93, that's why it is as smoky. China's long term goal is the WS-17.
> 
> Now, those so-called 'big shrimps' from CD can all commit the suicide.  China won't even use the Russian engine for the J-31, yet the J-20 would use the Russian engine?
> 
> The engine of the J-31 resembles even more Russian than the J-20 engine, yet it is not Russian.
> 
> 航空报国酬壮志 长天映照赤子心




How is it official? 

I can't read Chinese yet, so can you tell me what source has said this?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Bussard Ramjet said:


> How is it official?
> 
> I can't read Chinese yet, so can you tell me what source has said this?



Then learn how to read Chinese, since most Chinese official statements are written in Chinese.

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## Bussard Ramjet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Then learn how to read Chinese, since most Chinese official statements are written in Chinese.



I will. And you could perhaps have written the answer to my question instead of typing this.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I will. And you could perhaps have written the answer to my question instead of typing this.



This is an official statement from GAIC; the company that designed and manufacturing the WS-13.

And I don't know how official it can get.

Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## BoQ77

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Then learn how to read Chinese, since most Chinese official statements are written in Chinese.



I don't know it's true or not, the report in April, quite long ago.
But it's needed step for export. When CN done, they could start to marketing the aircrafts.

Actually, I'm headache with WS. ( RD-93 > WS13 > WS 17 ... Is WS-17 the stable variant ? )


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## ChineseTiger1986

BoQ77 said:


> I don't know it's true or not, the report in April, quite long ago.
> But it's needed step for export. When CN done, they could start to marketing the aircrafts.



Because the J-31's maiden flight was in October 2012, and the UCAV was in 2013.

So in April 2015 they were already reporting these outcomes.



BoQ77 said:


> Actually, I'm headache with WS. ( RD-93 > WS13 > WS 17 ... Is WS-17 the stable variant ? )



No, the WS-17 is the fifth generation medium thrust turbofan engine, it is much more powerful than both WS-13 and RD-93.

And the WS-13 is just a slight improvement over the RD-93 with slightly greater thrust.

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## cirr

According to the same article，the Mianshan engine is also more or less ready for the L-15 jet trainer and future UAVs。

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## ChineseTiger1986

cirr said:


> According to the same article，the Mianshan engine is also more or less ready for the L-15 jet trainer and future UAVs。



I hope those big shrimps from CD can do everyone a favor; just to kill themselves.

They are becoming a bunch of trolls on payroll with the purpose to harm China's national pride, and no one is going to trust them anymore.

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## Bussard Ramjet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Because the J-31's maiden flight was in October 2012, and the UCAV was in 2013.
> 
> So in April 2015 they were already reporting these outcomes.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the WS-17 is the fifth generation medium thrust turbofan engine, it is much more powerful than both WS-13 and RD-93.
> 
> And the WS-13 is just a slight improvement over the RD-93 with slightly greater thrust.



Which UCAV are we tlaking about? Soar Dragon?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Which UCAV are we tlaking about? Soar Dragon?



The Sharp Sword.

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## cirr

Bussard Ramjet said:


> How is it official?
> 
> I can't read Chinese yet, so can you tell me what source has said this?



It is official because of the style and occasion of the report and the fact that it appeared on the official website of AVIC：

记贵航发动机研究所韩冬：航空报国酬壮志_航空人物频道_新闻中心_中国航空新闻网_航空行业第一新闻门户_CANNEWS

Listen dude，Chinese readers can easily tell official news releases from speculations touted by military fanboyss or the so-called experts。

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## ChineseTiger1986

cirr said:


> Listen dude，Chinese readers can easily tell official news releases from speculations touted by military fanboyss or the so-called experts。



The CD forum simply has the worst expert wannabes.

Now their bet is all losing, even the J-31 doesn't use the Russian engine, yet they expect the J-20 to use the Russian one?

But anyway, many of them are under the payroll of the foreigners, so to bash China is simply their job.

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## JSCh

Now, this RD-93, WS-13 both lookalike, is indistinguishable from outside.
Makes one wonder if their is something similar for AL-31, maybe a lookalike clone says for eg. used by J-15?

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## j20blackdragon

JSCh said:


> Now, this RD-93, WS-13 both lookalike, is indistinguishable from outside.
> Makes one wonder if their is something similar for AL-31, maybe a lookalike clone says for eg. used by J-15?



Perhaps you don't have to wonder. J-20 2016 is probably already using a domestic 'AL-31' derivative.

The original unpainted AL-31 on the J-20 looks like this.






AL-31FN on the J-10 looks like this.





However, I've never seen any AL-31 look like this.








The color is significantly darker, including the inside of the nozzles.

The nozzles are either shorter or embedded deeper into the airframe. Either way, there is no precedent on any other aircraft that makes the AL-31 look like this.

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> Perhaps you don't have to wonder. J-20 2016 is probably already using a domestic 'AL-31' derivative.
> 
> The original unpainted AL-31 on the J-20 looks like this.
> View attachment 259350
> 
> 
> AL-31FN on the J-10 looks like this.
> View attachment 259352
> 
> 
> However, I've never seen any AL-31 look like this.
> View attachment 259353
> 
> View attachment 259354
> 
> The color is significantly darker.
> 
> The nozzles are either shorter or embedded deeper into the airframe. Either way, there is no precedent on any other aircraft that makes the AL-31 look like this.



WS-15 maybe using the AL-31 design as core for development pave with upthrust and lifespan. I will not be surprised this engine is WS-15.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> WS-15 maybe using the AL-31 design as core for development pave with upthrust and lifespan. I will not be surprised this engine is WS-15.



The WS-15 is related to the WS-10.

Since many late variants of the WS-10 has black nozzle, so they might have used the new advanced materials for this engine as well.

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## Beast

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The WS-15 is related to the WS-10.
> 
> Since the many late variants of the WS-10 has black nozzle, so they might have used the new advanced materials for this engine as well.


Yup, I think during the interview with AVIC chairman lin. He did mention something about the material of WS-10 engine.

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## j20blackdragon

Let me post three pictures in a row.

J-20 2001 with a single unpainted AL-31 engine





J-20 2016





Ukrainian Su-27S with dark AL-31F nozzles





Somehow I feel that the shape, color, and texture of the 2016 engine is unique. It doesn't feel like an AL-31 to me.

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## JSCh

j20blackdragon said:


> Perhaps you don't have to wonder. J-20 2016 is probably already using a domestic 'AL-31' derivative.
> 
> The original unpainted AL-31 on the J-20 looks like this.
> View attachment 259359
> 
> 
> AL-31FN on the J-10 looks like this.
> View attachment 259352
> 
> 
> However, I've never seen any AL-31 look like this.
> View attachment 259353
> 
> View attachment 259354
> 
> The color is significantly darker, including the inside of the nozzles.
> 
> The nozzles are either shorter or embedded deeper into the airframe. Either way, there is no precedent on any other aircraft that makes the AL-31 look like this.


Or maybe another possibility - the whole engine is shorter due to reduced turbine stage blade count.


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## BoQ77

j20blackdragon said:


> Perhaps you don't have to wonder. J-20 2016 is probably already using a domestic 'AL-31' derivative.
> 
> The original unpainted AL-31 on the J-20 looks like this.
> View attachment 259359
> 
> 
> AL-31FN on the J-10 looks like this.
> View attachment 259352
> 
> 
> However, I've never seen any AL-31 look like this.
> View attachment 259353
> 
> View attachment 259354
> 
> The color is significantly darker, including the inside of the nozzles.
> 
> The nozzles are either shorter or embedded deeper into the airframe. Either way, there is no precedent on any other aircraft that makes the AL-31 look like this.



AL-31FM-2 ?


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## j20blackdragon

BoQ77 said:


> AL-31FM-2 ?



We don't have any in service pictures of the AL-31FM2, so it's hard to compare.

Here is the AL-31FM1 on the Su-34.









In my opinion, it looks nothing like the 2016 engines.

The 2016 engines have several unique characteristics:

1. The shade of black is very unique.
2. The color distribution is very even.
3. It has a smooth texture when viewed from a distance, so smooth you have trouble seeing the individual petals on the nozzle.

Everything else about it looks like the AL-31.

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## kuge

http://bbs.wforum.com/upfile/images/20151001/20151001081620_36228_big.jpg






would the chart provide the clue to engines on j-20?

the chart describes the engine(ws-10-T?) was a scale-down version of ws15 using existing tech & materials to produce 14500kn. The exhaust nozzle is grey-black in color.

the designed thrust of ws-15a is 15600kn.


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## j20blackdragon

kuge said:


> http://bbs.wforum.com/upfile/images/20151001/20151001081620_36228_big.jpg
> 
> View attachment 261692
> 
> 
> would the chart provide the clue to engines on j-20?
> 
> the chart describes the engine(ws-10-T?) was a scale-down version of ws15 using existing tech & materials to produce 14500kn. The exhaust nozzle is grey-black in color.
> 
> the designed thrust of ws-15a is 15600kn.



The black WS-10 does not look like the engines on 2016 imo.

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## ChineseTiger1986

j20blackdragon said:


> The black WS-10 does not look like the engines on 2016 imo.



According to the chart, those black nozzled Taihang engines in your pics are the WS-10B-III.

While the J-20 uses the WS-10T; the T1 is the silver nozzle and the T2 is the black nozzle from the prototype 2016.



kuge said:


> http://bbs.wforum.com/upfile/images/20151001/20151001081620_36228_big.jpg
> 
> View attachment 261692
> 
> 
> would the chart provide the clue to engines on j-20?
> 
> the chart describes the engine(ws-10-T?) was a scale-down version of ws15 using existing tech & materials to produce 14500kn. The exhaust nozzle is grey-black in color.
> 
> the designed thrust of ws-15a is 15600kn.



The early model of the WS-15 could be similar to the F119 which is about 156kN, but the later upgrade variant could perhaps reach close to 180kN.

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## aliaselin

> 先进间冷热力循环40MW功率级舰船用燃机性能达世界领先水平
> 他主持突破了先进间冷循环燃机总体气动热力与结构设计、机上紧凑型高效低损失间冷系统、高性能压气机与动力涡轮、高温高效燃烧室、全权限数字式控制系统等关键技术，实现ISO条件下，热效率为42.2%,超过同档功率世界最先进的英国船用燃机MT30。


Power of QC-185 with cold thermodynamic cycle has reached 40MW，with thermo efficiency for 42.2%, which exceeding MT30

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## kuge

oo..i made a grave mistake in stating the thrust in xxxxxkn instead of N


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## TopWater

kuge said:


> oo..i made a grave mistake in stating the thrust in xxxxxkn instead of N





j20blackdragon said:


> The black WS-10 does not look like the engines on 2016 imo.





j20blackdragon said:


> Let me post three pictures in a row.
> 
> J-20 2001 with a single unpainted AL-31 engine
> View attachment 259421
> 
> 
> J-20 2016
> View attachment 259422
> 
> 
> Ukrainian Su-27S with dark AL-31F nozzles
> View attachment 259423
> 
> 
> Somehow I feel that the shape, color, and texture of the 2016 engine is unique. It doesn't feel like an AL-31 to me.


The section where the body necks down to meet the nozzles is thicker in photo number two compared to photo number one. The angle of the photos are similar and the difference is apparent from that angle.


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## BoQ77

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> While the J-20 uses the WS-10T; the T1 is the silver nozzle and the T2 is the black nozzle from the prototype 2016.
> 
> The early model of the WS-15 could be similar to the F119 *which is about 156kN*, but the later upgrade variant could *perhaps reach close to 180kN.*



How did you get those specs ?


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## Deino

kuge said:


> http://bbs.wforum.com/upfile/images/20151001/20151001081620_36228_big.jpg
> 
> View attachment 261692
> 
> 
> would the chart provide the clue to engines on j-20?
> 
> the chart describes the engine(ws-10-T?) was a scale-down version of ws15 using existing tech & materials to produce 14500kn. The exhaust nozzle is grey-black in color.
> 
> the designed thrust of ws-15a is 15600kn.



Honestly ... I have to admit I take them with a huge grain of salt most of all due to versions mentioned that I've never heard before and the J-11-numbers in other charts are wrong We have seen similar graphics from the same guy also regarding the J-11 production, engines and so on and

As such I would rate this as the author's personal deduction of Taihang and surely nothing official .... even more based on what we know, since most of all due to versions mentioned that I've never heard before and the J-11-numbers in other charts are wrong.

Deino


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## aliaselin

A Chinese complex has been formed to merge MotorSich, including Baoti Group, while AVIC and CSGC may also get involved.
宝钛集团拟并购乌克兰MotorSich航空发动机厂商_安徽频道_凤凰网

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## Blue Marlin

@cnleio i was told that the inner engine is a ws-20? im not sure, what is it?


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## cnleio

Blue Marlin said:


> @cnleio i was told that the inner engine is a ws-20? im not sure, what is it?
> View attachment 269798


This photo in Russia, it's Russian D-30PK-3 a updated D-30 engine ... there's no any naked WS-20 photo on internet yet.

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## aliaselin



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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> View attachment 271273
> View attachment 271274


End of year, I think we will heard some good news.

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## qwerrty



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## BoQ77

qwerrty said:


>



Is this the engine design for C919 ?


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## aliaselin

三款船用“中国心”亮相海事会展-新华网
It has mentioned three new diesel engines:
6EX340EF power: unknown
12MV390 power: 10 MW
CHD622V20 CR power: 3.5 MW

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## Beast

inventer777 said:


> What is the life expectancy of Chinese engines...
> 
> American engines General Electric F414 have 6000 hrs
> 
> Russian engines RD-33 around 4000 hrs
> 
> Chinese *WS-13 only 2000 hrs*... Chinese have sacrificed life expectancy of aero engines to un-economical levels to achieve higher thrust


Where did you get your info from? From Indian or American source? Since when since Indian or American ever say true and good things about China?

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## MastanKhan

inventer777 said:


> What is the life expectancy of Chinese engines...
> 
> American engines General Electric F414 have 6000 hrs
> 
> Russian engines RD-33 around 4000 hrs
> 
> Chinese *WS-13 only 2000 hrs*... Chinese have sacrificed life expectancy of aero engines to un-economical levels to achieve higher thrust



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. The deduction of life cycle of chinese engine is not as simple as that.

But if it indeed is 2000 hours----then it is a big leap of engineering technology for china. 20 years ago---the F7PG engine was roughly around 500 hours----.

Once the engine gets into full service----then the true life cycle be determined. 2000 hours is not an uneconomical life cycle. If it gives the aircraft the needed power to compete---it has done its job----.

China's concern is a NOW concern----between 5 to 10 years from now---it will have engine with a life cycle of 4000 plus hours. Finance part of the engine is the least of concerns.


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## Akasa

inventer777 said:


> What is the life expectancy of Chinese engines...
> 
> American engines General Electric F414 have 6000 hrs
> 
> Russian engines RD-33 around 4000 hrs
> 
> Chinese *WS-13 only 2000 hrs*... Chinese have sacrificed life expectancy of aero engines to un-economical levels to achieve higher thrust



The numbers that you've quoted are from 2009, when the WS-13 hasn't even begun flight trials. It's almost a certainty that newer iterations of the engine would bear drastically improved specifications, even if the original numbers that you've posted were accurate.

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## aliaselin

> http://www.cannews.com.cn/epaper/zghkb/2016/01/05/A03/story/776659.shtml


WZ-16 will start to test on Z15 soon.

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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> WZ-16 will start to test on Z15 soon.


One thing for sure WZ-16 is just an civilian version of the already new engine equipped on newer batch of Z-10 gunship and Z-20 military transport helo. It probably has stricter demand like noise damping, less emission and more fuel efficiency in order to be met by demanding commercial requirement.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> One thing for sure WZ-16 is just an civilian version of the already new engine equipped on newer batch of Z-10 gunship and Z-20 military transport helo. It probably has stricter demand like noise damping, less emission and more fuel efficiency in order to be met by demanding commercial requirement.




Again ... what's the source for this !??

It simply *CAN't *be like so many things You tell us in Your posts *always* without a source or even proof. An engine that is not ready in its original form can't already be used in a military development. Period.

The problem is again You only take the information You like, tell is a fact - to admit, I'm a nature scientist (chemistry) and have therefore a maybe different standard for telling something "for sure" - and all others, who question this piece of information or have a different opinion that does not fit Yours are bashed as being stupid, ignorant or a foreigner.

Deino


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## BoQ77

Yeah we need true facts not rumors which could be true or false. Mark "rumor" label ( if any ) pls


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## Economic superpower

Deino said:


> Again ... what's the source for this !??
> 
> It simply *CAN't *be like so many things You tell us in Your posts *always* without a source or even proof. An engine that is not ready in its original form can't already be used in a military development. Period.
> 
> The problem is again You only take the information You like, tell is a fact - to admit, I'm a nature scientist (chemistry) and have therefore a maybe different standard for telling something "for sure" - and all others, who question this piece of information or have a different opinion that does not fit Yours are bashed as being stupid, ignorant or a foreigner.
> 
> Deino



Sources are never revealed for foreigners!


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Again ... what's the source for this !??
> 
> It simply *CAN't *be like so many things You tell us in Your posts *always* without a source or even proof. An engine that is not ready in its original form can't already be used in a military development. Period.
> 
> The problem is again You only take the information You like, tell is a fact - to admit, I'm a nature scientist (chemistry) and have therefore a maybe different standard for telling something "for sure" - and all others, who question this piece of information or have a different opinion that does not fit Yours are bashed as being stupid, ignorant or a foreigner.
> 
> Deino


You simply think Z-20 can still use the WZ-9 turboshaft? PW turboshaft is banned for military prototype use. So no way China has mean to obtain from PW for their military prototype. It has to be a more powerful engine dubbed by Huitong website. The same use on Z-10. I still remember you insist the new seen Z-10 gunship is just recycle of earlier batch of Z-10 gunship until you eat back your words when we seen new camouflage Z-10 gunship which definitely prove is newly build Z-10. And not refurbished as what you rubbish. And also proven our stance new Z-10 is come out from factory. You want prove? There you go.

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## Deino

Economic superpower said:


> Sources are never revealed for foreigners!



Yes, but they surely reveal their sources to Beast ?! ... 

I know that sources are rarely given and that's in fact my argument: Due to the lack of official confirmed reports, we have to rely on the few we have, the rumours we get and photographic evidence.

We simply should use our brain and logic to deduct what's the most likely fact behind all that ...




Beast said:


> You simply think Z-20 can still use the WZ-9 turboshaft? PW turboshaft is banned for military prototype use. So no way China has mean to obtain from PW for their military prototype. It has to be a more powerful engine dubbed by Huitong website. The same use on Z-10. I still remember you insist the new seen Z-10 gunship is just recycle of earlier batch of Z-10 gunship until you eat back your words when we seen new camouflage Z-10 gunship which definitely prove is newly build Z-10. And not refurbished as what you rubbish. And also proven our stance new Z-10 is come out from factory. You want prove? There you go.
> 
> View attachment 291002



Honestly - and I rarely get rude - You are so stupid and plain dumb in Your obsession to be correct that You do not even notice how much BS You post. 

I claimed indeed, that the so called Z-10H is nothing more than a refurbished pre-serial batch and that has been confirmed by Huitong, who is quite a reliable poster at other forums. And again, just look at the details.

Even more I never "eat back my word" that these new build camouflaged Z-10K are the same ones ... You are simply too stupid even to note where they differ from the last batch, the pre-serials or prototypes. For You nearly each and every new image is a hint that they are fitted by new much more powerful engine.
If - following Your obsession - these Z-10K are indeed the latest version, why then are these latest Z-10K are again of the original Z-10A production standard ?

*Guy ... LOOK, CONSIDER and then draw a CONCLUSION !*






Do You really think they build the original airframe in the prototypes & pre-serial, modified it for the standard Z-10A ... re-used the old airframe for the Z-10H due to its "supa-powerful" engine and again took the modified airframe of the Z-10A for the latest Z-10K ??? I think You are the one who simply does not know, who does not understand, who is not able or willing to think ... who cannot proof and then becomes rude and personnel after You noticed Your argument fails.

Go and try again. So far all Your post are pure 
Deino

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## aliaselin

Beast said:


> One thing for sure WZ-16 is just an civilian version of the already new engine equipped on newer batch of Z-10 gunship and Z-20 military transport helo. It probably has stricter demand like noise damping, less emission and more fuel efficiency in order to be met by demanding commercial requirement.


Z-10 will use new version of WZ9; while Z-20 will use WZ-10. These three engines belongs to three different classes

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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> Z-10 will use new version of WZ9; while Z-20 will use WZ-10. These three engines belongs to three different classes


I doubt that. The engine on Z-10 gunship is no different from the one from Z-20. PLA shall follow fhe same arrangement like USAF for their Blackhawks and Apache. They used all the same engines. It is to reduce logistics. They shall be no reason PLA developed a special non interchangeable engine for Z-20 helo that for Z-10 gunship can't use. All new Z-10 gunship shall use the more powerful turboshaft.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> I doubt that. The engine on Z-10 gunship is no different from the one from Z-20. PLA shall follow fhe same arrangement like USAF for their Blackhawks and Apache. They used all the same engines. It is to reduce logistics. They shall be no reason PLA developed a special non interchangeable engine for Z-20 helo that for Z-10 gunship can't use. All new Z-10 gunship shall use the more powerful turboshaft.




Proof !!! Simply proof it !

You repeatedly and constantly bash others due to their opinion and now You simply tell us we should trust Your "doubts ! You are really funny.

However in one point You are correct: They *SHALL* use ... but today they *DON'T* !

So ... give us any proof or at least an argument, any physical evidence and not Your believing.

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Proof !!! Simply proof it !
> 
> You repeatedly and constantly bash others due to their opinion and now You simply tell us we should trust Your "doubts ! You are really funny.
> 
> However in one point You are correct: They *SHALL* use ... but today they *DON'T* !
> 
> So ... give us any proof or at least an argument, any physical evidence and not Your believing.
> 
> Deino


What proof do you have that the engine used on Z-20 is not the same as Z-10? Show me.

You think PLA are stupid to create logistic night mare for themselves?

There is no way, the engine used on Z-20 can be a weak one since Z-20 main purpose is to transport logistic. It has to be an upgraded more powerful than WZ-9 turboshaft. PW turboshaft is out of question since they were fined once and no way it can happened again.

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## Deino

I have no proof other that the consideration that the Z-10 and Z-20 are both of a different weight class other than the AH-64 and CH-60.

I don't think the PLA is stupid, but sometimes it has no other option ... but it's stupid to assume "wishful thinking" as fact and pretend to this false opinion, if all other information speak against that.

As such not my "I-don't-know what engine the Z-20 use" is the argument we discuss, but Your constant BS in regard to the Z-10, J-10B and so on ! Just give us an answer in regard to the different versions ? Where are these "I eat my word back" ??? ... or do You simply don't understand my argument ?

IT's simply again You, You have no argument, You have no idea and most of what You post is simply clueless and wrong. So explain me why should the new Z-10K again use the original configuration ?


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## Economic superpower

Beast is far more believable than Deino who is clueless on Chinese military affairs.

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## Deino

Economic superpower said:


> Beast is far more believable than Deino who is clueless on Chinese military affairs.




Care to explain ? Only since I'm a foreigner or since I mention things in his posts, that simply can't be ?

Honestly it is one thing to be optimistic or have a positive contention, but it is another thing to post things that can't be - see the Z-10 issue, see the J-10B issue - and the turn down all arguments simply with "You are stupid since a German" !

I have no problem to argue and discuss; even more I would love to revert my point of view if convinced by arguments and facts. The fact that I'm a German is not an argument for his believing ...

I agree with You that he has a huge advantage since I can't read Chinese ... but that should not prevent him from using his brain or could You explain why the PLA - by his logic - changes each time the Z-10-configuration with each new version ? Why are there so many J-10B with full PLAAF serials that are "not operational" ??

Anyway ... have a nice day.

Deino


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## BoQ77

Economic superpower said:


> Beast is far more believable than Deino who is clueless on Chinese military affairs.



Deino is thinker
Beast is dreamer

LOL


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## Akasa

There is no evidence to suggest that the Z-10 has already been equipped with the WZ-16. The engine has yet to enter service on the Z-15, get approval from the French, and then do a whole bunch of integration tests before it could happen.

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## 帅的一匹

BoQ77 said:


> Deino is thinker
> Beast is dreamer
> 
> LOL


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## aliaselin

> 研究所在确保质量、安全、保密的前提下，紧紧围绕研究所“强基固本开拓创新”总基调和“以任务与能力为根本抓手”总思路，狠抓科研经营生产中主要矛盾的解决落实，实现了“一机鉴定、两机首飞、两机达标、五项目立项、五机定型/鉴定所内准备、九课题验收”，同时科研管理工作也呈现诸多亮点。



I'm shocked...
Lin did not cheat us.


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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> I'm shocked...
> Lin did not cheat us.




Could You please provide a translation or a summary !!??


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Could You please provide a translation or a summary !!??


5 engines are prepared for type approval !
These are only from one institute.


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## Deino

Any hint what these "5 engines" are ???


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Any hint what these "5 engines" are ???


You can take a guess at it.


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## Deino

Yes ... surely that "mystical-magical" WS-15 ... but since I found an image comparing 5 J-20 intake images and a similar text I would highly question this post, since it simply can't be that they were testing five different engines on five different J-20s ! That would be plain stupid and even more so many different suitable but different engines are simply not available.


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Yes ... surely that "mystical-magical" WS-15 ... but since I found an image comparing 5 J-20 intake images and a similar text I would highly question this post, since it simply can't be that they were testing five different engines on five different J-20s ! That would be plain stupid and even more so many different suitable but different engines are simply not available.


Surely not WS-15.


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## Deino

... so 117S !??


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> ... so 117S !??


 Good joke. Let's wait for the results of the story.

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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Good joke. Let's wait for the results of the story.




Nice that You understood it indeed as a joke !


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Nice that You understood it indeed as a joke !


I know you have published some articles on English military magzines, and would you please give a guidance to a person like me for doing it like this?


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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> I know you have published some articles on English military magzines, and would you please give a guidance to a person like me for doing it like this?




Hi my friend,
regarding Your question, I think the best way would be simply to contact the magazine You would like to publish in, tell them who You are and what's Your experience in that topic ... and wait for a reaction.

I did it this way for both the Combat Aircraft Monthly and Air International and added a report I already finished.

What magazines do You have in mind ?

Prior to these two I already worked for a German magazine (FliegerRevue) and here it was a bit different, a friend of mine - Tom Cooper, with whom I'm still working together - suggested this to me since he already worked for them and in parallel I was working together with Tony Buttler (Maybe You know his book on US, US and Russian secret projects ?) ...

As such, all the best,
Deino


PS: is there a way to start a PM conversation with You ?? I just tried, but the system told me I'm not allowed to start a conversation with You !????


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Hi my friend,
> regarding Your question, I think the best way would be simply to contact the magazine You would like to publish in, tell them who You are and what's Your experience in that topic ... and wait for a reaction.
> 
> I did it this way for both the Combat Aircraft Monthly and Air International and added a report I already finished.
> 
> What magazines do You have in mind ?
> 
> Prior to these two I already worked for a German magazine (FliegerRevue) and here it was a bit different, a friend of mine - Tom Cooper, with whom I'm still working together - suggested this to me since he already worked for them and in parallel I was working together with Tony Buttler (Maybe You know his book on US, US and Russian secret projects ?) ...
> 
> As such, all the best,
> Deino
> 
> 
> PS: is there a way to start a PM conversation with You ?? I just tried, but the system told me I'm not allowed to start a conversation with You !????


Thanks mate. I wi
ll check if I can start a conversation with you later.


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## cirr

WS-15 demonstrator engine delivered in 2011

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## Beast

cirr said:


> WS-15 demonstrator engine delivered in 2011
> 
> View attachment 293571


The engine on J-20 is WS-15. Just becos is the nozzle looks like AL-31, doesn't mean it's AL-31.
No way a J-20 can be operational with a AL-31 engine.


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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> The engine on J-20 is WS-15. Just becos is the nozzle looks like AL-31, doesn't mean it's AL-31.
> No way a J-20 can be operational with a AL-31 engine.



sound like you already know what WS-15 look like.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> sound like you already know what WS-15 look like.



It just takes a bit of intelligent to deduct. Becos the only 4th gen engine China developing is WS-15. Tell me besides WS-15, what 4th gen aero engine China is developing?


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## Deino

Beast said:


> The engine on J-20 is WS-15. Just becos is the nozzle looks like AL-31, doesn't mean it's AL-31.
> No way a J-20 can be operational with a AL-31 engine.




NO WAY ... simply forget it ! ... but if You want to keep dreaming that the Chinese managed to reverse engineer an exact copy of the AL-31's nozzle only to hide a true WS-15 ???

O.k. ... keep on dreaming.


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> The one dreaming is you. Appearance is nothing especially is just nozzle. Time will tell who is dreaming. You don't know Chinese language and you have zero knowledge of Chinese technology progress. I don't need a white man to tell me what is what. If you can beat my Chinese knowledge then we talk about it.




O.k. ... but just let me tell You this. Ignorance coupled with arrogance especially in mind of facts which contradicts these believing is always the fist step to fail.

But again ... keep on dreaming.


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## aliaselin

aliaselin said:


> I'm shocked...
> Lin did not cheat us.



I suddenly find that I have missed the news that WZ-10 is ready


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## aliaselin

> 晚上10时多，动力所总设计师刘永泉满脸兴奋地向大家报告：某型发动机试验成功，“十二五”研制目标顺利实现！


Official news confirms 14T WS-10 is ready

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## 帅的一匹

aliaselin said:


> Official news confirms 14T WS-10 is ready


Can J16 super cruise with twin WS10b turbo engine?


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## S. Martin

aliaselin said:


> Official news confirms 14T WS-10 is ready


Great news! Hope to see it goes to mass production right now! What's the model, WS-10G?



Deino said:


> Honestly ... I have to admit I take them with a huge grain of salt most of all due to versions mentioned that I've never heard before and the J-11-numbers in other charts are wrong We have seen similar graphics from the same guy also regarding the J-11 production, engines and so on and
> 
> As such I would rate this as the author's personal deduction of Taihang and surely nothing official .... even more based on what we know, since most of all due to versions mentioned that I've never heard before and the J-11-numbers in other charts are wrong.
> 
> Deino



Wow, The flow chart looks quite logical, the guy is quite smart to link those versions well if it proves to be fake. However, considering the fact that the WS-10 encounters lots of problem during devlopment phase and some articles mentioned WS-10 did make quite a few of running changes even in the mass production stage, so I think it's rational that the WS-10 has many different versions. Some of them may be not formally released , but just use to identify different changes or technology in production?


----------



## JSCh

*China forming plane engine conglomerate *
Xinhua, March 3, 2016

China is forming a plane engine conglomerate by teaming up three listed engine makers.

According to the firms' disclosures to the Shanghai and Shenzhen stock exchanges on Thursday, authorities have appointed heads of the new giant.

The appointments include the chair, Party secretary, general manager and deputy Party secretary. The names of the appointees were not disclosed.

The three listed firms are Sichuan Chengfa Aero Science & Technology Co., Avic Aviation Engine Corp. and Avic Aero-Engine Controls Co.

The three, already major players in their own right, are now obliged to make coordinated disclosures to shareholders via stock exchanges.

New companies created by central Chinese authorities generally become heavyweights in their industry.

The move will improve China's standing in plane design and manufacturing. Though one of the biggest aviation markets, the country is still heavily reliant on imported engines.

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## Akasa

There is a rumor that a variant of the WS-10B with 3D thrust vectoring is being tested aboard a flying testbed.


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## cirr

According to a reliable insider，the Taihang engine（WS-10 series）is

（1）getting better and better
（2）having many variants
（3）about to welcome a stealth member。

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## aliaselin

It is said that Minshan got maiden flight on L15

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## aliaselin

aliaselin said:


> It is said that Minshan got maiden flight on L15


It is officially confirmed now
http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA...383691c725f6c7fd6f940&scene=4#wechat_redirect

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## cirr

Prototype of an aero-engine adopting "new principles" and with a thrust-weight ratio of 15 possible in the next 5-10 years, according to the Chinese Academy of Sciences:

http://www.iet.cas.cn/hdzt/135zl/2016yisanwu/

http://www.iet.cas.cn/hdzt/135zl/2016yisanwu/201603/t20160302_4541160.html



A Rotating Detonation Engine(RDE)?

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## JSCh

*Chinese defense company AircraftEngine Corp of China incorporated in Beijing with 50 billion in registered capital*
(People's Daily Online) 11:23, June 13, 2016





With a total registered capital of 50 billion yuan, AircraftEngine Corp of China, the 12th military industrial group of the country, was incorporated in Beijing on May 31, which indicates that the company has made its official debut since it initialized organization in October 2015.

According to information from the Beijing Administration for Industry and Commerce, AircraftEngine Corp of China's scope of business includes power units for military and civilian aircrafts, second power plants, gas turbines, design, development, production, maintenance, sales and after-sales service in helicopter drive systems as well as technical derivatives of aviation engines.

Diffrent from the general state-owned enterprises with only one shareholder, AircraftEngine Corp of China has four corporate shareholders: the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd., the Beijing State-owned Assets Operation & Management Center, the State-owned Assets Supervision and the Administration Commission and Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

Aero engines have been the “Achilles' tendon” of China's aviation industry, and the establishment of AircraftEngine Corp of China can be described as having a special mission.

A government work report in 2015 included "aircraft engines and gas turbines" onto the list of national strategic emerging industries for the first time; it has proposed to implement major projects in these fields and has vowed to strengthen defense-related research and high-tech weaponry and equipment construction.

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## Beast

JSCh said:


> *Chinese defense company AircraftEngine Corp of China incorporated in Beijing with 50 billion in registered capital*
> (People's Daily Online) 11:23, June 13, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With a total registered capital of 50 billion yuan, AircraftEngine Corp of China, the 12th military industrial group of the country, was incorporated in Beijing on May 31, which indicates that the company has made its official debut since it initialized organization in October 2015.
> 
> According to information from the Beijing Administration for Industry and Commerce, AircraftEngine Corp of China's scope of business includes power units for military and civilian aircrafts, second power plants, gas turbines, design, development, production, maintenance, sales and after-sales service in helicopter drive systems as well as technical derivatives of aviation engines.
> 
> Diffrent from the general state-owned enterprises with only one shareholder, AircraftEngine Corp of China has four corporate shareholders: the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd., the Beijing State-owned Assets Operation & Management Center, the State-owned Assets Supervision and the Administration Commission and Aviation Industry Corporation of China.
> 
> Aero engines have been the “Achilles' tendon” of China's aviation industry, and the establishment of AircraftEngine Corp of China can be described as having a special mission.
> 
> A government work report in 2015 included "aircraft engines and gas turbines" onto the list of national strategic emerging industries for the first time; it has proposed to implement major projects in these fields and has vowed to strengthen defense-related research and high-tech weaponry and equipment construction.


I guess they already has some product(commercial or military) to sell given that they go public with it.

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## BoQ77

If they have a product, why they feel nervous to show it, but the Leap engine in the picture.

Expect they would have some reliable engines after 10 years from foundation day.


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## Deino

Just found ...



> *Russia has informed China about the start of work on the engine for the joint project *
> 
> http://ria.ru/economy/20160620/1449252779.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "*In addition, we informed the Chinese side to start work on a heavy Russian aircraft engines in the segment up to 35 tons, the decision to establish that as recently as in May, was made president of Russia, were allocated the appropriate means. It is almost solves the problem associated with the creation of long-range wide-body aircraft, because the plane is not possible without the engine, *"- Rogozin said after a meeting of co-chairmen of the Russian-Chinese intergovernmental commission on preparation of regular meetings of heads of governments of the two countries. Co-chairman of the commission from the Chinese side is the vice-premier of the State Council Wang Yang.
> 
> "We agreed that the aircraft Russian and Chinese companies will determine the life of the aircraft, which already operate on the leading lines, above all, is of course, the aircraft of the American and European production. Why is it necessary to define a resource? In order that we should understand the phasing appearance niche, when out of the already operating western aircraft, and when there is a need for a new board and this work will be done in the next few months, "-. said Russian Deputy Prime Minister.
Click to expand...


Deino


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Just found ...
> 
> 
> 
> Deino



C929


----------



## JSCh

English version,

TASS: Business & Economy - Moscow starts developing heavy engine for joint Chinese-Russian airliner

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> C929



I was under the impression that the C929 would use Chinese CJ-2000s.

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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> I was under the impression that the C929 would use Chinese CJ-2000s.


I can be sure that engine project is initiate by Russian. Chinese has their own backup. This project is not critical to China but more important for Russian.

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## aliaselin

SinoSoldier said:


> I was under the impression that the C929 would use Chinese CJ-2000s.


As a commercial project, the engine selected will not be restricted to one type. The initial test may b based on Trent 1000


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## cirr

Three cheers to WS13E!!! 

Looks though FC-31 has got itself the engine.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Three cheers to WS13E!!!
> 
> Looks though FC-31 has got itself the engine.



Was there a certain special event ?


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Was there a certain special event ?



It is known that the WS13E test platform was neither FC-1 nor L-15.


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Was there a certain special event ?


It is said that the FADEC engine WS-13IPE (WS-13E) took its 7-minute first flight.

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## Deino

In a JF-17 or right away in the FC-31?


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> In a JF-17 or right away in the FC-31?


FC-31


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> FC-31



V1 or already V2?


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> V1 or already V2?


31001

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## cirr

星海军事 said:


> 31001



Wondering when they are gonna use the new engine on 2.0.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> In a JF-17 or right away in the FC-31?


Twin engine is safer for a first flight.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> 31001



When will 31002 fly?


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## aliaselin

> 某机点火成功，为党的生日献礼
> 
> 
> 
> 2016年6月30日下午5点34分，黎阳试车台内爆发出阵阵掌声，公司某新机成功实现加力点火，整个过程经历部分加力、小加力、全加力三个状态，在加力点火整个过程中发动机工作稳定，标志着该新型发动机在研制道路上获得了一座重要里程碑，也为党的95岁生日献上了一份宝贵的礼物。
> 
> 为完成某机点火试验，6月26日以来，试车小组在组长陆凤魁的带领下，始终以“铁军”的精神品质扎根车台一线。他们每天加班至第二天凌晨，无怨无悔，高效完成各项工作。值得一提的是该试车小组5名成员里有4人是团员青年，他们工作经验不足，但是每天以满腔的激情、强烈的责任心完成工作，晚上加班至深夜，他们不叫苦不叫累，工作现场总能看到他们乐观的笑容。同时，他们喜欢学习，追求上进，工作之余，他们积极向设计所人员学习与发动机相关的各项知识，为完成试验任务做好知识储备。
> 试车小组如此，电气仪表工作人员也一样。他们和试车人员一起，每天加班加点，为发动机试验做好电气控制、仪表测量的各项保障工作。电气检查测量电阻时，密密麻麻的针脚看得他们眼睛发花，发动机每次试车前电气工作人员需要测量上百个电阻，排查与发动机控制相关的故障时都离不开他们，一个小小的故障需要花费他们大量的时间和精力检查试车台架和发动机电气线路情况。
> 发动机点火成功，让人振奋，同时也鼓舞我们继续努力奋斗，勇往直前，为国家武器装备事业贡献更大的力量。






> 七月一日，这是一个特殊的日子，配装黎阳公司某型发动机的飞机轰鸣声震醒了北方静寂的大地，成功实现首飞。
> 上午，9时53分，配装黎阳某发动机的飞机昂首冲向天空，按照预定航路完成爬行、飞行等任务，10时01分成功着陆，整个飞行过程中发动机工作7分33秒，参数正常，工作稳定。“成功了！”“成功了！”机场响起了一片欢呼声。
> 在建党95周年之际，黎阳人以实际行动向祖国交了一份厚礼，践行“动力强军 科技报国”的使命，以迎难而上的决心，坚定不移的信心，持之以恒的耐心，为航空发动机事业冲锋在前，贡献智慧和力量。
> 作为该型机总承制单位，公司充分发挥了“厂所结合”优势，在各承制单位的大力配合和全体参研人员的共同努力下，攻坚克难，亮剑图强，通力协作，出色完成任务并成功实现首飞，标志着该型新机研制工作取得阶段性胜利，是中推涡扇新机研制中又一个非常重要的里程碑！

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## ChineseTiger1986

A new milestone for China's turbofan engine, then I cannot think any other than the mighty WS-15.


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## dingyibvs

Sounds pretty official, bodes well for the FC-31 and the JF-17.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> A new milestone for China's turbofan engine, then I cannot think any other than the mighty WS-15.



The last sentence says it's medium thrust, I think it's the WS-13x.

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## ChineseTiger1986

dingyibvs said:


> Sounds pretty official, bodes well for the FC-31 and the JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> The last sentence says it's medium thrust, I think it's the WS-13x.



A WS-13X with 100kN in the afterburner thrust sounds good.


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## cirr

So now it is official!!

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## aliaselin

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> A WS-13X with 100kN in the afterburner thrust sounds good.


9,000 kgf

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## Bussard Ramjet

cirr said:


> So now it is official!!



What is official?


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## kuge

is there a mnimum duration to test the engine before declared ok? whats the TTW ratio of the new ws-13? thanks


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## cirr

Now that we have WS-13IPE being flight-tested, are we also going to have WS-10IPE before WS-15? 



aliaselin said:


> 9,000 kgf



When will the 9800 kgf engine see the light of day?

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## grey boy 2

*More than 400 WS-10 series domestic engines have been installed on J-11B,D, J-16 since the end of (2015), no accident occurred so far*
日前，中航工业发布2015年社会责任报告，其中“太行”发动机批量装备部队，中航工业已具备自主研发第三代大推力发动机的能力格外引人瞩目，曾几何时， 军用航空大推力发动机和CPU一样是中国的心病，也是一些网络舆论用来贬低中国工业水准的最佳武器。但从今往后，能够用于贬低中国工业水平和自主技术实力 的例子又少了一项，中国成为继美国和俄罗斯后，第三个批量装备国产大推力军用航空发动机的国家。就在中国取得这一成就的背后，有谁知道涡扇10所经历的艰 辛。





*“太行”发动机已批量装备部队

截至2015年底，410厂已向海军、空军交付涡扇10发动机不少于400余台，被用于J11B、J11D、J16等机型，装备了不少于5个航空团。虽然经历了磕磕碰碰，但截至目前，没有一架搭载涡扇10发动机的战机因发动机故障坠毁。*

在 今年年初，中国航空报公布了涡扇10发动机改进型号由中航工业动力所研制成功的消息。改进版本的涡扇10发动机将加力推力提升到14-14.5吨，实现在 综合性能（最大加力推力、寿命、推重比）方面，涡扇10及其改进型号足以和俄罗斯的AL31F及其改进型AL31F-99M1/M2等发动机相媲美。

改 进版涡扇10发动机另一项重大改进就是航空发动机的全权限数字电子控制系统。航空发动机的全权限数字电子控制系统（英文简称为FADEC），是指挥发动机 的大脑。FADEC可以从发动机上的传感器中获取数据，对发动机进行一系列的复杂控制，如改变喷口面积、监控发动机状态、诊断故障等等。FADEC不仅能 够大大提高飞机的飞行性能，而且减轻了发动机的重量。在早期型号的涡扇10发动机上，由于中国自己则缺乏高性能涡扇发动机控制系统的研究经验，就把俄罗斯 发动机的控制系统移植到涡扇10上。

这种做法虽然在当年是够用的，但到如今，老式俄制发动机的控制系统移已经无法满足三代半战机和四代机的需要。在刘永泉团队的努力下，成功研制出全权限数字电子控制系统，使涡扇10发动机告别了AL-31F发动机的控制系统。

正如中航工业2015年社会责任报告中写道，“太行”发动机批量装备部队，中航工业已具备自主研发第三代大推力发动机的能力，涡扇10的可靠性问题，中航工业和军方已经用实际行动作了表述
http://news.qq.com/a/20160706/042467.htm

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## JSCh

*AVIC report: China's Taihang engine widely deployed in military*
By Jiang Jie (People's Daily Online) 14:45, July 07, 2016






(File photo of Taihang engine)​
China’s Taihang engines have become a significant, large-scale presence in the military, making China the third country in the world that has mass deployment of domestically-produced high-thrust engines for military use, according to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) annual report.

AVIC's social responsibility report showed that the company is capable of independently conducting research and development on the next generation of high-thrust aerial engines, along with advanced drones such as Wing Loong, which have also been deployed in the military.

The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has deployed no less than 400 Taihang engines in five air force regiments. Various types of fighter jets are equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets, reported China Science Communication, a news site under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. So far there have been no crashes due to engine failure among Taihang engine-equipped fighter jets, the news site also noted.

Some doubts have been voiced about the originality of the Taihang engine, as there are people who believe the Chinese-made engine is a copy of its Western counterparts. However, according to China Science Communication, the development of the Taihang engine was based on accumulated experience and technological advances gathered since 1978. The engine was also based partially on its predecessor, WS-6, which spent some 20 years in development.

Meanwhile, the engine also took inspiration from the control system of Russia's AL-31F aircraft turbofan engine, China Science Communication admitted, calling the Taihang engine a result of “independent development combined with technology from the Soviet Union and the U.S.”

“China has become the fourth country in the world to independently design and produce large transportation aircraft, as well as the third country to independently develop stealth fighter jets,” the AVIC report said, adding that China has advanced its air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to the fourth generation.

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## grey boy 2

(FWS10A) 14.5 tons thrust class domestic engine

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## siegecrossbow

JSCh said:


> *AVIC report: China's Taihang engine widely deployed in military*
> By Jiang Jie (People's Daily Online) 14:45, July 07, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (File photo of Taihang engine)​
> China’s Taihang engines have become a significant, large-scale presence in the military, making China the third country in the world that has mass deployment of domestically-produced high-thrust engines for military use, according to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) annual report.
> 
> AVIC's social responsibility report showed that the company is capable of independently conducting research and development on the next generation of high-thrust aerial engines, along with advanced drones such as Wing Loong, which have also been deployed in the military.
> 
> The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has deployed no less than 400 Taihang engines in five air force regiments. Various types of fighter jets are equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets, reported China Science Communication, a news site under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. So far there have been no crashes due to engine failure among Taihang engine-equipped fighter jets, the news site also noted.
> 
> Some doubts have been voiced about the originality of the Taihang engine, as there are people who believe the Chinese-made engine is a copy of its Western counterparts. However, according to China Science Communication, the development of the Taihang engine was based on accumulated experience and technological advances gathered since 1978. The engine was also based partially on its predecessor, WS-6, which spent some 20 years in development.
> 
> Meanwhile, the engine also took inspiration from the control system of Russia's AL-31F aircraft turbofan engine, China Science Communication admitted, calling the Taihang engine a result of “independent development combined with technology from the Soviet Union and the U.S.”
> 
> “China has become the fourth country in the world to independently design and produce large transportation aircraft, as well as the third country to independently develop stealth fighter jets,” the AVIC report said, adding that China has advanced its air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to the fourth generation.



This is actually pretty helpful for determining the number of J-11Bs and J-16s currently in service. We know for a fact that the first batch of J-11Bs entered service with AL-31s, so we'll count those out. There should be around 200 or fewer Sino-flankers currently in service since you always need some engines in reserve.

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## Beidou2020

(File photo of Taihang engine)

China’s Taihang engines have become a significant, large-scale presence in the military, making *China the third country in the world that has mass deployment of domestically-produced high-thrust engines for military use*, according to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) annual report.

AVIC's social responsibility report showed that the company is capable of independently conducting research and development on the next generation of high-thrust aerial engines, along with advanced drones such as Wing Loong, which have also been deployed in the military.

*The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has deployed no less than 400 Taihang engines in five air force regiments.* *Various types of fighter jets are equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets*, reported China Science Communication, a news site under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. *So far there have been no crashes due to engine failure among Taihang engine-equipped fighter jets*, the news site also noted.

Some doubts have been voiced about the originality of the Taihang engine, as there are people who believe the Chinese-made engine is a copy of its Western counterparts. However, according to China Science Communication, the development of the Taihang engine was based on accumulated experience and technological advances gathered since 1978. The engine was also based partially on its predecessor, WS-6, which spent some 20 years in development.

Meanwhile, the engine also took inspiration from the control system of Russia's AL-31F aircraft turbofan engine, China Science Communication admitted, calling the Taihang engine a result of “independent development combined with technology from the Soviet Union and the U.S.”

*“China has become the fourth country in the world to independently design and produce large transportation aircraft, as well as the third country to independently develop stealth fighter jets,”* the AVIC report said, adding that China has advanced its air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to the fourth generation.

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## dy1022

Beidou2020 said:


> (File photo of Taihang engine)
> 
> China’s Taihang engines have become a significant, large-scale presence in the military, making *China the third country in the world that has mass deployment of domestically-produced high-thrust engines for military use*, according to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) annual report.
> 
> AVIC's social responsibility report showed that the company is capable of independently conducting research and development on the next generation of high-thrust aerial engines, along with advanced drones such as Wing Loong, which have also been deployed in the military.
> 
> *The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has deployed no less than 400 Taihang engines in five air force regiments.* *Various types of fighter jets are equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets*, reported China Science Communication, a news site under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. *So far there have been no crashes due to engine failure among Taihang engine-equipped fighter jets*, the news site also noted.
> 
> Some doubts have been voiced about the originality of the Taihang engine, as there are people who believe the Chinese-made engine is a copy of its Western counterparts. However, according to China Science Communication, the development of the Taihang engine was based on accumulated experience and technological advances gathered since 1978. The engine was also based partially on its predecessor, WS-6, which spent some 20 years in
> 
> Meanwhile, the engine also took inspiration from the control system of Russia's AL-31F aircraft turbofan engine, China Science Communication admitted, calling the Taihang engine a result of “independent development combined with technology from the Soviet Union and the U.S.”
> 
> *“China has become the fourth country in the world to independently design and produce large transportation aircraft, as well as the third country to independently develop stealth fighter jets,”* the AVIC report said, adding that China has advanced its air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to the fourth generation.

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> (FWS10A) 14.5 tons thrust class domestic engine


These engine looks like AL-31F engine.


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

Beidou2020 said:


> (File photo of Taihang engine)
> 
> China’s Taihang engines have become a significant, large-scale presence in the military, making *China the third country in the world that has mass deployment of domestically-produced high-thrust engines for military use*, according to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) annual report.
> 
> AVIC's social responsibility report showed that the company is capable of independently conducting research and development on the next generation of high-thrust aerial engines, along with advanced drones such as Wing Loong, which have also been deployed in the military.
> 
> *The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has deployed no less than 400 Taihang engines in five air force regiments.* *Various types of fighter jets are equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets*, reported China Science Communication, a news site under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. *So far there have been no crashes due to engine failure among Taihang engine-equipped fighter jets*, the news site also noted.
> 
> Some doubts have been voiced about the originality of the Taihang engine, as there are people who believe the Chinese-made engine is a copy of its Western counterparts. However, according to China Science Communication, the development of the Taihang engine was based on accumulated experience and technological advances gathered since 1978. The engine was also based partially on its predecessor, WS-6, which spent some 20 years in development.
> 
> Meanwhile, the engine also took inspiration from the control system of Russia's AL-31F aircraft turbofan engine, China Science Communication admitted, calling the Taihang engine a result of “independent development combined with technology from the Soviet Union and the U.S.”
> 
> *“China has become the fourth country in the world to independently design and produce large transportation aircraft, as well as the third country to independently develop stealth fighter jets,”* the AVIC report said, adding that China has advanced its air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to the fourth generation.



WS13E and WS15 in the pipeline... great going!

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## Deino

Beast said:


> These engine looks like AL-31F engine.




This might be the reason for Your repeated claims that the J-20 uses WS-10. 

If You look closely both engines are "similar" at best but especially the nozzle - most of all these more than characteristic two double dots in the middle of the pedals - are a clear sign to differ between both !


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## rott

@Beast, please tag those Indian big mouths in here. Lol...

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## Dungeness

rott said:


> @Beast, please tag those Indian big mouths in here. Lol...



30 years past, and China is in a whole different level, but our Indian friends have yet to come up with new lines to attack their biggest enamy. They will continue this mumbling of "copy, paste, steal, hack......." for some time to come. Their weird sense of superiority and their frustration due to inability, do make a very interesting combination.

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## ahojunk

Dungeness said:


> They will continue this mumbling of "copy, paste, steal, hack......."


.
You don't apply this phrase to a country that is not important or does not have any impact on you.

Precisely because of this, the un-informed like to knock on Chinese products. When high-end Chinese products (DJI drones, Huawei smartphones, BYD buses and EV) become popular and respected in the West, the narrative will change.

In the sixties, it was fashionable to knock on Japanese products and deride them as cheap shoddy knockoffs.

In the eighties, it was the time to knock on the South Koreans and the Taiwanese products.

Now, it's the Chinese turn. (Actually, it is a badge of honor).

Six years ago, when HSR was mentioned, western media will bring out all the negatives such as it is not safe or won't be profitable, is an economic disaster, etc. etc.

Today, the narrative on China's HSR is mostly good. You can't really criticize the largest, fastest, longest, smoothest and most efficient HSR in the world, can you? It is generally acknowledged by experts that China's HSR is the best and most advanced in the world.

Just be patient guys and give it a few more years.

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## IblinI

ahojunk said:


> .
> You don't apply this phrase to a country that is not important or does not have any impact on you.
> 
> Precisely because of this, the un-informed like to knock on Chinese products. When high-end Chinese products (DJI drones, Huawei smartphones, BYD buses and EV) become popular and respected in the West, the narrative will change.
> 
> In the sixties, it was fashionable to knock on Japanese products and deride them as cheap shoddy knockoffs.
> 
> In the eighties, it was the time to knock on the South Koreans and the Taiwanese products.
> 
> Now, it's the Chinese turn. (Actually, it is a badge of honor).
> 
> Six years ago, when HSR was mentioned, western media will bring out all the negatives such as it is not safe or won't be profitable, is an economic disaster, etc. etc.
> 
> Today, the narrative on China's HSR is mostly good. You can't really criticize the largest, fastest, longest, smoothest and most efficient HSR in the world, can you? It is generally acknowledged by experts that China's HSR is the best and most advanced in the world.
> 
> Just be patient guys and give it a few more years.


Very well said,sir.

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## scherz

Our time will come.

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## cirr

WS-20 and variants

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## Beast

cirr said:


> WS-20 and variants


Definitely will be used for C919.


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## ashok321

Without a proper engine, the J-31, China's second fifth-generation fighter designed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, will be unable to compete against Lockheed Martin's F-35.

The J-31 is currently equipped with two RD-93 engines imported from Russia. However, the Russian engine was designed for fourth-generation fighters such as the MiG-29. The thrust of two RD-93 combined cannot match a single F-135 engine on an F-35 fighter. When compared with the two F-119 engines of F-22 Raptors, the gap is even wider. In addition, the Russian-built engines has also shortened the range of the J-31.







*Russian Klimov RD-93 Turbofan Engine*
*
*
The J-31 is unable to fly long distances as its range is estimated at no more than 2,000km. This is only half the range of the J-11 fourth-generation fighter, a clone of the Russian Su-27 'Super Flanker'. Due to this major drawback the Chinese engineers had to make several modifications to the J-31 which in turn has caused the long delays towards its FOC. As per scant information available in the public domain due to China's obsession with secrecy, not much is known about the quantum of the traditional measures adopted by the Chinese to accord FOC for a high performance aircraft or whether China even follows the generally accepted principles for such a process.











* Pratt & Whitney F135 Afterburning turbofan*

Like India, China has also struggled with its Turbofan engine development efforts, though several engines have been developed over the past few decades, it is however not verifiable that a single engine has consistently powered an operational Chinese fighter jet. The Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation WS-13 Taishan developed exclusively for the FC-1 Xiaolong (or JF-17) was discarded midway because it lacked the expected performance and reliability.


Furthermore, it is claimed by the Chinese that the Shenyang WS-10 'Taihang' powers the J-11Bas and J-16s. Reportedly an improved version of WS-10 namely the WS-10A is being used on some J-10Bs. The WS-10 is alleged to be a clone of the CFM-56II itself based on the General Electric F101. In April 2009, Lin Zuoming, head of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), reported that the engine's quality was unsatisfactory and its reliability was also poor. There have been a spate of accidents of fighters using these engines and such incidents have rarely been reported either in the domestic or international media.


During the last Zhuhai Airshow in 2012, the development of a new engine was announced by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China. The thrust of this new engine is estimated to be a 9,500 kilogram-force, which is more powerful than the RD-93 which can achieve only 8,300 kgF.


Finally, it can only be a subject of speculation whether the Chinese develop a high performance and reliable turbofan engine to power their fighter jets.

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## Beast

ashok321 said:


> View attachment 317349
> View attachment 317350
> View attachment 317351
> 
> 
> 
> Without a proper engine, the J-31, China's second fifth-generation fighter designed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, will be unable to compete against Lockheed Martin's F-35.
> 
> The J-31 is currently equipped with two RD-93 engines imported from Russia. However, the Russian engine was designed for fourth-generation fighters such as the MiG-29. The thrust of two RD-93 combined cannot match a single F-135 engine on an F-35 fighter. When compared with the two F-119 engines of F-22 Raptors, the gap is even wider. In addition, the Russian-built engines has also shortened the range of the J-31.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Russian Klimov RD-93 Turbofan Engine
> 
> *
> The J-31 is unable to fly long distances as its range is estimated at no more than 2,000km. This is only half the range of the J-11 fourth-generation fighter, a clone of the Russian Su-27 'Super Flanker'. Due to this major drawback the Chinese engineers had to make several modifications to the J-31 which in turn has caused the long delays towards its FOC. As per scant information available in the public domain due to China's obsession with secrecy, not much is known about the quantum of the traditional measures adopted by the Chinese to accord FOC for a high performance aircraft or whether China even follows the generally accepted principles for such a process.
> 
> View attachment 317349
> View attachment 317350
> View attachment 317352
> 
> * Pratt & Whitney F135 Afterburning turbofan*
> 
> Like India, China has also struggled with its Turbofan engine development efforts, though several engines have been developed over the past few decades, it is however not verifiable that a single engine has consistently powered an operational Chinese fighter jet. The Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation WS-13 Taishan developed exclusively for the FC-1 Xiaolong (or JF-17) was discarded midway because it lacked the expected performance and reliability.
> 
> 
> Furthermore, it is claimed by the Chinese that the Shenyang WS-10 'Taihang' powers the J-11Bas and J-16s. Reportedly an improved version of WS-10 namely the WS-10A is being used on some J-10Bs. The WS-10 is alleged to be a clone of the CFM-56II itself based on the General Electric F101. In April 2009, Lin Zuoming, head of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), reported that the engine's quality was unsatisfactory and its reliability was also poor. There have been a spate of accidents of fighters using these engines and such incidents have rarely been reported either in the domestic or international media.
> 
> 
> During the last Zhuhai Airshow in 2012, the development of a new engine was announced by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China. The thrust of this new engine is estimated to be a 9,500 kilogram-force, which is more powerful than the RD-93 which can achieve only 8,300 kgF.
> 
> 
> Finally, it can only be a subject of speculation whether the Chinese develop a high performance and reliable turbofan engine to power their fighter jets.



https://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/ws-13e-turbofan/

_Chinese website mil.163.com says in its report today that China’s fighter jet engine producer Liyang Company sent a public message on July 1 on the successful first flight of an aircraft installed with a certain type of engine the company has developed.

The company’s great excitement at the success makes the website speculate that it was the test flight of a J-31 installed with new WS-13E engines that are improved version of WS-13 with greater thrust.

The aircraft took off at 9:53 am and landed at 10:01 am along designated route and did the climbing and flight according to schedule. During the 7 minutes 33 seconds flight, all the parameters of the engine remain normal and the engine worked stably.

According to the report, in 2012 China developed FWS-13 on the basis of Russian RD-93 to increase its thrust with augmentation to about 8,500 kg. The engine was successfully tested on a J-31, but the thrust is still not enough.

On April 22, 2016, Liyang’s holding company announced that it is investing 961 million yuan (US$171 million) in Liyang to build a production line of third-generation medium thrust aircraft engines including WS-13E with reduced weight and increased augmented thrust.

The report bares the secret data of improved WS-13. It says that its weight will be reduced from 1,135 kg to 1,050 kg but its maximum augmented thrust will be increased from about 8,700 kg to more than 9,000 kg to raise its thrust-to-weight ratio to 8.8.

Source: war.163.com “Speculation of successful first flight of a J-31 with more powerful thrust-augmentation type WS-13E engine” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese_

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## Mysticbuddy

Does it has a smoke bomb up its rear?


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## Beast

Mysticbuddy said:


> Does it has a smoke bomb up its rear?


No but world class clean engine.

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## Providence

Very Funny !


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## shah1398

Either the article is to old or deliberately didnt take into account WS-13.

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## C130

we should just sell China engines they'll eventually just steal the design anyway

F-119 powering J-20 would be beautiful


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## fsayed

China still a decade and half means 15years away from any reliable jet engine


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

C130 said:


> we should just sell China engines they'll eventually just steal the design anyway
> 
> F-119 powering J-20 would be beautiful



please don't make Indians cried, they're just jump of joy over SCS, we can't handle drama queen

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## Beast

fsayed said:


> China still a decade and half means 15years away from any reliable jet engine


India will be hundred years away from making modern turbofan. 

China has been making reliable jet engine call WP-13 for our J-7G since the 90s. J-7 were sold widely and the spread of our customer is our testament. Something India still haven achieved yet.

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## cirr

While China is on the cusp of becoming a leading player in aero-engines with WS-13E, a new 9800kgf medium thrust engine, WS-15, WS-17 etc etc, India is still at least 30 years away from having its first true working indigenous engine. 

Engine will no longer be a problem for China in 3-4 years. 

The last nut cracked.

PS The 14.5-ton Taihang(WS-10) IPE can be used as a stopgap before the WS-15 comes online for J-20 around 2020.



C130 said:


> we should just sell China engines they'll eventually just steal the design anyway
> 
> F-119 powering J-20 would be beautiful



The way you stole from the Germans during and after the WW II?

The way you keep stealing talents from other countries ever since the settlers butchered hundreds of millions of Indians?

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## lcloo

fsayed said:


> China still a decade and half means 15years away from any reliable jet engine



400 WS-10A have been fitted to PLAAF and PLAN latest jet fighters for years now without major problem. And new engines of diffirent classes will be fitted to new aircrafts in time faster than you think.

I advise you to come in the Chinese defence threat more often, to witness the progress being made.

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## Deino

Guys ... why bother with yet another piece of crap ? I'm almost sure this BS-report (or at least similar ones) have already been posted and surely similar ones will again appear from time to time. 

They are like mushrooms popping up from the forest's floor after a warm summer-rain ... they are annoying but nothing to care about, other that it is truly not necessary to start a new thread each time.

As such, topic merged.

Deino


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## cirr

China's R & D in turbo-based and rocket-based combined cycle engines get a further boost

06.07.2016

*多家科研单位协同攻关中国组合动力飞行器技术*

7月6日，中国运载火箭技术研究院（以下简称“火箭院”）研发中心与西北工业大学航天学院、航天推进技术研究院11所签署了关于合作开展“组合动力飞行器技术”研究的协议，开始在“组合动力飞行器”这一尖端领域协同攻关。

火箭院组合动力飞行器技术研究中心设计师杨旸介绍：“‘组合动力飞行器’是集成涡轮发动机、冲压发动机、火箭发动机等多种动力的飞行器。如果使用‘组合动力飞行器’开展载人航天活动，普通人即使没接受过航天员的专业训练也能上太空。”

普通人上太空，这是许多人梦寐以求的事。不过，在我们的印象里，航天员执行飞天任务前，必须进行多年的严苛训练……为什么乘坐“组合动力飞行器”，就不用训练了呢？

“目前，各国开展载人航天活动，使用的都是单一的火箭动力。火箭‘力气’大，加速快，技术相对成熟。但也正是因为加速太快，航天员的身体要承受超过体重数倍的过载。因此，航天员大多选自身体素质极高的歼击机飞行员。不但如此，他们还要再进行复杂而漫长的训练，才能胜任航天飞行任务。”杨旸说：“而‘组合动力飞行器’由于集成了多种发动机，可以在起飞时使用飞机常用的涡轮发动机或小推力的火箭发动机，当飞行器达到一定速度后再使用需要初始速度的冲压发动机，最后在大气稀薄的地方点燃火箭发动机，实现入轨。这样就变火箭发动机‘单手搏击’为多种动力‘组团太极’，从而实现缓慢加速，使过载降低到普通人也能承受的范围。”

杨旸介绍：“‘组合动力飞行器’在大气层内使用涡轮发动机、冲压发动机，这样就可以使用大气层中的氧气进行燃烧。而各国现役载人火箭在大气层中还要携带沉重的氧化剂，两者相比，效率高下立判。同时，‘组合动力飞行器’可以像飞机一样，在普通机场水平起降，既能使航天发射不再‘挑剔’发射场的条件，又为飞行器的可重复使用奠定了基础，使航天活动的成本大大降低。更重要的是，‘小火慢炖’的‘组合动力飞行器’告别了传统载人火箭‘开弓没有回头箭’的悲壮，即便加速中出现问题也能稳稳地飞回来，使载人航天活动的安全性得到质的提升。”

杨旸说：“能载人航天，肯定也能发射卫星。不过，由于‘组合动力飞行器’的集成度高，技术难度极大，所以实现实用飞行尚需时日。此前，美、欧等国已开展了大量的研究、试验工作，我国以火箭院为代表的科研机构、高校也正在这一领域发力。或许在不久的将来，我们这些未受过严苛训练的普通人也能乘坐中国的‘组合动力航班’飞向太空。”

2016西工大新闻网7月8日电 7月5日和6日，我校党委书记张炜携科学技术管理部和航天学院等相关单位一行十余人，先后赴航天科工二院和航天科技一院调研，就学校与科研院所在科研合作和人才培养等方面事宜进行沟通交流。学校副校长宋保维、科学技术管理部部长岳珠峰和航天学院院长唐硕等相关领导陪同。

在航天科工二院，院党委书记马杰对张炜一行的到访表示热烈欢迎。马杰首先简要介绍了二院的发展现状与取得的成果，同时详细介绍了未来“十三五”的发展规划。马杰表示，在人才培养方面，西北工业大学这些年来一直支持航天科工事业的发展，为二院培养输送了近500余名优秀的校友，其中10多位已经成长为副总师以上领导，为二院的发展作出了重要贡献。在科研方面，学校“十二五”期间与二院签订了50多项科研合同，为二院在基础研究、关键技术攻关和型号研制等方面，提供了大力的技术支持。此外，二院科技管理部门针对与学校下一步的合作，梳理出明确的技术需求和合作意向，对下一步双方科研的深度合作充满期望。张炜首先对二院的热情接待表示感谢，高度肯定了双方长久以来形成的良好伙伴关系，并对学校下一步继续加大与二院的人才培养与科研合作提出明确要求。在人才培养方面，张炜要求在高层次人才，尤其在博士及博士后培养方面，学校要加大与二院联合培养的工作力度。在科研方面，张炜认为双方还有很大的合作空间，要求学校科研管理部门下一步要加强与二院的科研沟通和交流，发挥学校基础和前沿研究的优势，开展有组织、持续性的科学研究工作，争取“十三五”取得更大的成果。

在航天科技一院，副院长王国庆代表院方对张炜一行的到访表示热烈欢迎，同时参会的还有航天六院代表。王国庆首先系统介绍了一院“十二五”的发展情况，随后回顾了与我校在人才及科研方面的交流与合作。我校为一院输送了近400多名校友，其中30多人已经成为院本部和下属厂所的高层领导或总师。科研合作280多个项目，是一院与高校合作最深入的单位。我校航天学院针对一院的情况，有针对性的提出了未来合作的若干领域，尤其在火箭组合发动机研制方面，预计未来“十三五”大有作为。最后，在一院、学校和六院领导的见证下，唐硕代表航天学院与一院研发中心和航天六院11所，联合签署组合动力飞行器技术攻关合作协议，实质性地推动我校与一院和六院的科研进一步深度合作。

http://news.qq.com/a/20160714/022693.htm

@Bussard Ramjet

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> please don't make Indians cried, they're just jump of joy over SCS, we can't handle drama queen



Dragon, you like the indians come after you? Be careful otherwise the super power is come going to get you... enjoy the ride...

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## cirr

It is official:

(1) first flight of scramjet powered "Waverider" in 2011
(2) a series of tests successfully completed and concluded in 2014
(3) National Defence Science & Technology Progress Award Special-class in 2012
(4) CASIC team now working on something HUGE(disruptive technologies)

【超燃冲压试验飞行器获国防科学技术进步奖特等奖】陆红，中国航天科工三院301所总师，为国家某“重大专项试验飞行器”研制作出重要贡献。该项目是我国超燃冲压领域首次飞行，后获国防科学技术进步奖特等奖。据悉，该试验飞行器采用乘波体构型，2011年首飞，2014年试飞圆满完成。

“中国青年五四奖章”获得者陆红：引航前沿 飞梦蓝天 

2016-07-13 光明网

http://m.gmw.cn/xz/201607/13/20949891.html

@Bussard Ramjet

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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> It is official:
> 
> (1) first flight of scramjet powered "Waverider" in 2011
> (2) a series of tests successfully completed and concluded in 2014
> (3) National Defence Science & Technology Progress Award Special-class in 2012
> (4) CASIC team now working on something HUGE(disruptive technologies)
> 
> 【超燃冲压试验飞行器获国防科学技术进步奖特等奖】陆红，中国航天科工三院301所总师，为国家某“重大专项试验飞行器”研制作出重要贡献。该项目是我国超燃冲压领域首次飞行，后获国防科学技术进步奖特等奖。据悉，该试验飞行器采用乘波体构型，2011年首飞，2014年试飞圆满完成。
> 
> “中国青年五四奖章”获得者陆红：引航前沿 飞梦蓝天
> 
> 2016-07-13 光明网
> 
> http://m.gmw.cn/xz/201607/13/20949891.html
> 
> @Bussard Ramjet



These are my deductions, but I am 90% sure. It's like completing a jigsaw puzzle.



> 她在担任*某重大专项*试验飞行器系统总体负责人期间，由于该项目是我国*某技术领域首次飞行试验*，没有经验可借鉴，难度极大。



——Hypersonic vehicle project, one of the 18 NSTMPs



> （2011年）6月21日，在*刘兴洲*院士家中，……院领导向他通报了*某重大专项科技工程首飞*胜利的情况。



——Liu Xingzhou, the founder of Chinese hypersoinc propulsion technique

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## cirr

星海军事 said:


> These are my deductions, but I am 90% sure. It's like completing a jigsaw puzzle.
> 
> 
> 
> ——Hypersonic vehicle project, one of the 18 NSTMPs
> 
> 
> 
> ——Liu Xingzhou, the founder of Chinese hypersoinc propulsion technique



The wordings of the report dated 13.07.2016 seem to imply that further progresses have been made since 2014.

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## hk299792458

星海军事 said:


> These are my deductions, but I am 90% sure. It's like completing a jigsaw puzzle.
> 
> 
> 
> ——Hypersonic vehicle project, one of the 18 NSTMPs
> 
> 
> 
> ——Liu Xingzhou, the founder of Chinese hypersoinc propulsion technique



An I may add that if medias in China start to report around the topic these days, either some important stages have been step through, either this is related to current geopolitic issues.

I also noticed consecutive strange NOTAM everyday since July 12th, I don't know what were they, but just keep follow.

And I just want to add a last word : I appreciate a lot what you've done to show in 3D the progress in the Type 001A's construction. Really well done and keep going like that.

Henri K.

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## grey boy 2

Now im kinda confused, before they said the shorter one was the improved version but now they said the completely opposite?











新的WS10尾喷口至少比老的长出约20厘米 new improved version 20mm longer

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## aliaselin

> 三代中等推力航空发
> 动机生产线建设项目
> 否 96,123.84 6,773.01 64,697.64 是 92.52% 10,309 是


92.52% of WS-13 production setting up work has been finished

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## ChineseTiger1986

grey boy 2 said:


> Now im kinda confused, before they said the shorter one was the improved version but now they said the completely opposite?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 新的WS10尾喷口至少比老的长出约20厘米 new improved version 20mm longer



Because the improved WS-10 variants all have the more elongated nozzles, that's why the current engine of the J-20 has been mixed up with the AL-31.

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Because the improved WS-10 variants all have the more elongated nozzles, that's why the current engine of the J-20 has been mixed up with the AL-31.




Surely not, it's not only the length of the pedals - and I can't think that anyone will anyway notice a 20mm difference - they are simply different. Just look at the inner structure, the flameholder, the way the convergent-divergent-mechanism is working even the structure of the pedals is different.

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## j20blackdragon



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## cirr

As per a presentation to Forum on Advanced Manufacturing of Aero and Rocket Engines held on 02.09.2016 in Shenyang, NE China, the country has embarked on the development of next(the 5th) generation aero-engine with a thrust weight ratio of 15.

Good progress is being made. 

with turbine blades made of ceramic matrix composites(CMC).

Also performances of WS-10B already superior to imported engines, further improvements being made.

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## ahojunk

*China Makes 90% Engines for Its Major Warplanes: Air Force Insider*
*Posted:* September 11, 2016

On September 4, super pilot Senior Colonel Wu Guohui, a professor on air force equipment at National Defense University, told Beijing Times in an exclusive interview that China has made great progress in developing aircraft engines. At present, China-made aircraft engines are used in more than 90% of China’s major warplanes including J-11, J-15 and J-16 fighters, H-5 and H-6 bombers, JH-7 fighter/bomber, Y-7 and Y-8 transports and Z-8, Z-9 and Z-10 helicopters.

Prof. Wu believes that the establishment of China’s aircraft engine group corporation will make engine research and development independent from aircraft design and concentrate the management and resources for research, development and production. That will greatly speed up China’s aircraft engine development to enable China to catch up with world advanced level within 5 to 10 years.

Source: Beijing Times “Super pilot’s insider story on air force major fighters: 90% engines China-made” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)

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## Grandy

*Polysynthetic twinned TiAl single crystals for high-temperature applications*

*News.ifeng* posted a report on June 22 on Professor Chen Guang’s success in developing an aircraft engine material much better than US best alloy for aircraft engine.
Chen has achieved the success through long-term research with the funding from Nanjing Polytechnic University and the state’s Program 973.

Prof. Chen’s achievement, Polysynthetic twinned TiAl (PST TiAl) single crystals for high-temperature applications, was published on the Internet at *Natural Materials* on June 20.





Prof. Chen Guang (in dark suit) at press conference on China’s 
major breakthrough in aviation and aerospace materials

When US GE’s new material Ti-48Al-2Cr-2Nb (Alloy 4822) was used in its GEnx engine for Boeing 787, it was hailed as a sensational success in the development of aircraft engine materials as it reduces the weight of an aircraft engine by 200 pounds, fuel consumption by 20% and discharge of NOx by 80% and significantly lowered engine noise.

At room temperature, PST TiAl has high tensile ductility of 6.9%, yield strength of 708 MPa and tensile strength of 978 MPa, a wonderful combination of ductility and strength.

What is more important for aircraft engine alloy, at the high temperature of 900℃ its yield and tensile strength is still as high as 637MPa and it has wonderful creep resistance. Its minimum creep rate and lasting life are better than Alloy 4822 by one to two magnitudes. It is hopeful that the allow may be used above 900℃ much higher that the 650~750℃ for Alloy 4822.

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## grey boy 2

中国先进中

推WS-17"岷山"

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## eldamar

grey boy 2 said:


> 中国先进中
> 
> 推WS-17"岷山"




Cool- so this is the engine for the JL-10(aka hongdu l-15) trainer AC?

So total jet engine projects:

WS-10A/B = J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16
WS-13E = JF-17
WS-15 = J-20
WS-17 = JL-10
WS-18 = H-6K
WS-20 = Y-20

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## Economic superpower

eldarlmari said:


> Cool- so this is the engine for the JL-10(aka hongdu l-15) trainer AC?
> 
> So total jet engine projects:
> 
> WS-10A/B = J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16
> WS-13E = JF-17
> WS-15 = J-20
> WS-17 = JL-10
> WS-18 = H-6K
> WS-20 = Y-20



WS-10H for the J-15.


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## cirr

eldarlmari said:


> Cool- so this is the engine for the JL-10(aka hongdu l-15) trainer AC?
> 
> So total jet engine projects:
> 
> WS-10A/B = J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16
> WS-13E = JF-17
> WS-15 = J-20
> WS-17 = JL-10
> WS-18 = H-6K
> WS-20 = Y-20



WS-10D


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## Grandy

*J-20 Uses Homegrown WS-15*





J-20 proves that it uses WS-15 engines as there are no grooves on the nozzles of its engines.





The nozzle of Russian AL-31F engine used on J-20 prototypes.
There are two groves on the nozzle





WS-15 engine with no grooves on it





WS-15 is much more powerful than AL-31F. The AL-31F’s nozzle has shrunk so that
the speed of smoke is much higher than that of the WS-15 with nozzle not shrunk
while they produce similar thrust for the J-20

_Mil-news-sina-com-cn _ in report reveals that the temperature before turbine is 1,474 degree Celsius in WS-15, the highest in the world. No wonder WS-15 is much more powerful than AL-31F. Its reliability lies between Western and Russian ones with a life of 900 hours longer than AL-31F.
Since the engine problem has been solved, J-20 can be regarded as a capable modern stealth fighter as it has satisfactory electronics and stealth shape.

.

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## Deino

Grandy said:


> *J-20 Uses Homegrown WS-15*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 proves that it uses WS-15 engines as there are no grooves on the nozzles of its engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The nozzle of Russian AL-31F engine used on J-20 prototypes.
> There are two groves on the nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WS-15 engine with no grooves on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WS-15 is much more powerful than AL-31F. The AL-31F’s nozzle has shrunk so that
> the speed of smoke is much higher than that of the WS-15 with nozzle not shrunk
> while they produce similar thrust for the J-20
> 
> _Mil-news-sina-com-cn _ in report reveals that the temperature before turbine is 1,474 degree Celsius in WS-15, the highest in the world. No wonder WS-15 is much more powerful than AL-31F. Its reliability lies between Western and Russian ones with a life of 900 hours longer than AL-31F.
> Since the engine problem has been solved, J-20 can be regarded as a capable modern stealth fighter as it has satisfactory electronics and stealth shape.
> 
> .




Sorry, but again as in the J-20-thread .... what a piece of crappy BS !!!!

Nothing has been proofed, no WS-15 is ready and surely not operational and this is the worst part:



> WS-15 engine with no grooves on it.



Using images of an PW-F100 installed in an F-16C to proof is plain stupid.


The author simply does not see that "grooves" is due to different convergent/divergent settings of the nozzle ... and by the way, how could an image proof that an engine has more thrust?

Deino

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## grey boy 2

Engine of type 96B MBT unveiled 中国最新96B坦克的发动机

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## CAPRICORN-88

eldarlmari said:


> Cool- so this is the engine for the JL-10(aka hongdu l-15) trainer AC?
> 
> So total jet engine projects:
> 
> WS-10A/B = J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16
> WS-13E = JF-17
> WS-15 = J-20
> WS-17 = JL-10
> WS-18 = H-6K
> WS-20 = Y-20



The* WS-17 *turbofan is in fact designed for the *JF-17 Thunder *as well* SAC J-31 Falcon fighter.*

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## yusheng

应微胖的要求标注一下太行吧，功能相同的附件就不说了，重点说说不同的。从几张图片上可以看出，太行发动机比岷山基本上只多了多了温度传感器、可调风扇导叶等几样，说明大推力涡扇发动机调节功能更多更复杂，基本上俄罗斯的31F系列和美国的F-100和F-110也是这样的结构和布局。太行发动机的外涵道是复合材料的，尾喷口SIC/SIC陶瓷基复合材料密封片听说也已经研制出来，总之在材料运用上还是比较激进的;风扇组件明显可以看出3级静子叶片都是和机匣焊在一起成为整体结构，工艺上也比较先进;就是控制系统基本上照搬了毛子31FN的东西，确实有点落后了，好在全权限数字式控制系统已经在新的太行上应用。
http://www.dingsheng.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=8535





在这张左侧的照片上可以看见岷山的主燃油泵调节器、滑油附件、滑油箱、高压压气机可调静子叶片调节作动筒和一个燃滑油热交换器。

　　主燃油泵的主要作用是为发动机主燃烧室提供燃油，并负责高压压气机可调静子叶片的调节液压油的供应(和旁边的太行相比，岷山少了一对作动筒是因为它没有风扇进口导叶)，保证高压压气机的工作效率。主燃油泵上的电液伺服阀告诉我们这台发动机应该是全权限数字式电调控制的。

　　滑油附件的作用是为发动机轴的轴承提供润滑油，并把使用过的润滑油抽回到滑油箱中。

　　滑油箱的主要作用是储存滑油。

　　燃滑油热交换器的作用是用燃油冷却使用过的滑油，一方面用燃油(航空煤油)降低滑油回油箱的温度，另一方面为燃油预热，如果看了毛子展台上的发动机和太行上的类似东西，大家应该知道它的技术是源于那里了。
http://www.dingsheng.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=8536

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## yusheng

if someone can really understand the history of Chinese aero engine development, then he may conclude that ws15 do exist.
to prove something does exist is easier to prove something doesnot exist.


缘起

涡喷发动机的原理很简单，就是作用力和反作用力的牛顿第三定律的原理，可真正从原理到上天，人们用了几个世纪的时间。

1913年法国工程师勒内·罗兰提出的一种喷气推进发动机取得专利，但这是一种冲压式空气喷气发动机，那时既不可能制造又无处使用。1930年，英国工程师弗兰克·惠特尔获得了第一个用燃气涡轮产生喷气推进的专利，但一直到11年后他的发动机才完成了第一次飞行。 1934年德国人汉斯·万·奥海因率先试制成功世界上第一台喷气发动机。1937年4月12日弗兰克·惠特尔试制成功英国第一台喷气发动机。但试运转并不理想，几经挫折，于1941年装上了格洛斯特战斗机。英国在40年代最主要的军用涡喷发动机有德温特河，尼恩等。特别是尼恩，它可以说是大多数现代发动机的鼻祖。苏联在40年代末的时候引进了尼恩，其仿制品就是ВК－1，而ВК－1Ф在ВК－1的基础上增加了加力燃烧室。这样，飞机的瞬时推力可以增加很多。中国的发动机就是从ВК－1Ф起步的。

随着朝鲜战争的结束，中国人民空军的战斗机也在进行着新一轮的更新换代。飞机和发动机的制造也提到了国家的议事日程上来。之后，我国开始仿制苏联的发动机，涡喷5，涡喷6，涡喷7等一系列发动机的仿制增强了中国航空工业的实力。可仿制也有尽头，随后的事件证明，没有真正的自主研制，中国的发动机还是要受制于人的。

人是要有点精神的，中国挺过了3年困难时期，原子弹和氢弹的爆炸震惊了世界，也鼓舞着中国人民的士气，一个大胆的想法在航空动力人的心中产生，研制自己的发动机，最新式的涡扇发动机。

当时该发动机的代号是910，也就是我们后来俗称的涡扇6，当时的想法是把该发动机的加力型作为新研制的歼击机歼9的动力，而把该发动机的无加力型910甲作为轰6和运9以及大型客机的动力。可国家正在动乱之中，这个新生儿又怎能幸免于难呢，发动机的研制的进程走走停停，试车过程中喘振不断。

-------“它的理想是九霄之上的凌云志，为自己的母亲去赢得一份安宁，可重重的桎梏，锁住了它不甘寂寞的身躯。”

有开始就有终结，再苦难的日子终究还是有个头，WS6熬过来了，迎来了飞行前50小时试车，可百废待兴的祖国已经无法将它养大，它下马了，它死在襁褓之中，尽管它已经不小了。

16年的心血，得到的竟是这样一个结果，606人欲哭无泪，总结会变成追悼会，有些人从此就离开了自己心爱的事业，中国的航空动力之路怎么就这么难， 此时的动力人是拔剑四顾心茫然，念天地之悠悠，独怅然而泪下。 而此时，30而立的共和国在航空发动机自主研制方面还是一片空白。“心脏病”，再次成为中国航空的阿喀琉斯之踵；涡扇6，是中国航空动力人永远的痛。

从零开始

“我不能给大家许诺什么，我所能付出的只有热血、辛劳、眼泪与汗水，你们要问我的政策是什么？我的回答是竭尽一切可能和投入全部力量，在海上、在陆地、在空中进行战争。你们要问，我们的目标是什么？我可以用一个词来答复，胜利。不惜一切代价争取胜利。不论道路多么遥远，多么艰难，也要去夺取胜利。”

1940年5月13号

丘吉尔于英国下院

1940年8月9号，也就是在德国空军大规模空袭英国的前一天，丘吉尔通过全国广播公司进行战争动员。英伦三岛64％的人在听着丘吉尔的演说，这些人伫立在街头，行走在马路、田间、车间、庭院听着。那时候没有电视，只有广播。丘吉尔问：我们泄气了吗？就这些站在马路上的英国人回答:没有，我们没有泄气！

80年代的中国航空动力或许只有用万马齐喑来形容，但冰封的河面之下却是涌动的春潮，也许只有用丘吉尔的演说词才能形容人们此时的心情。我们没有泄气，我们只是在积蓄力量。一旦春天到来，那雨后的春笋就将破土而出。

一、北海来风

盎古鲁撒克逊人历来是精明的商人，古板而不死板，保守而又务实。自东亚某国建国以来，他们从来没中断过与该国的关系。70年代初，随着中美关系的解冻，英国人来了。

1972年，英国同意向我方单方面出售民用”斯贝”发动机，1973年7月17日，英方又约见我驻英大使，表示已授权罗·罗，谈判向我方出售军用斯贝发动机，1975年8月，中英双方进行实质性谈判。1975年12月13日，签定了中国引进英国斯贝发动机专利的合同。

斯贝发动机，中国型号定名为涡扇9，定点西安航空发动机厂试制生产。西安航空发动机厂于1976年开始试制工作，此前西安生产的是涡喷8，是仿制苏联的РД-3М的产品，用于轰6。经过3年多的努力，1979年下半年，分两批装出了4台发动机。同年11月，由中英双方共同在中国完成了150小时持久试车考核。1980年2月到5月，又在英国完成了高空模拟试车、零下40摄氏度条件下的起动试车，以及5大部件的循环疲劳强度试验，结果都符合技术要求。中英双方代表签署了中国制造涡扇9发动机考核成功的文件。涡扇9发动机的初步研制成功，使中国有了一台推力适中的涡扇发动机，填补了空白，并有效提高了自行研制的水平和能力；通过试制引进了70年代水平的新材料、新工艺、新技术，机械加工工艺比原来提高一级精度以上，工厂掌握了诸如金属喷漆、真空热处理等12项具有世界先进水平的技术和46项国内先进工艺技术。同时，国内冶金、材料、化工、机械等工业的技术水平，也相应得到提高，从而较大幅度缩短了整个发动机制造技术与世界水平的差距。而且，斯贝发动机的引进还为航空工业迎接新时期的改革开放，引进先进技术，开展技术合作与交流，提高发动机及配套产品的技术水平，开了个好头。

需要指出的是如果没有涡扇9，那飞豹也就前途未卜了。但由于种种原因，WS9的研制一直踌躇不前。90年代初期，随着飞豹研制工作的展开，涡扇9的全面国产化工作也提到议事日程上来，95年11月，部分国产化的涡扇9通过150小时试车，此时涡扇9的国产化率已达到70％，仍有部分零件不能生产。1999年下半年，涡扇9发动机全面国产化工作启动，西安航空发动机厂先后攻克无余量精锻(精铸)工艺，数字式电子控制系统等一系列难关，西航集团公司仅用了20天时间就完成了发动机的装配，在成功进行了两次冷运转后，于2000年底一次点火成功，随即开始的150小时工艺试车于2001年圆满结束，试车检验结果表明各项性能技术指标均达到要求，涡扇9被重新命名为秦岭发动机，2002年6月1日上午，凝聚着西航航空人无数心血和汗水的秦岭发动机首飞成功。2003年7月该发动机通过技术鉴定，从此，中国开始有了全国产的大推力涡扇发动机。

斯贝发动机的原型改自民用发动机，因此也秉承了民用发动机耗油率低的特点。约翰牛的务实精神在斯贝发动机上体现得淋漓尽至；可靠，喘振余度高是斯贝的最大的特点，斯贝也正象一头老黄牛一样，勤勤恳恳，任劳任怨。斯贝是最早采用三元流技术的发动机，该理论是我国著名航空发动机专家吴仲华教授提出的。但是斯贝的推比却是长期以来一直被人们所诟病的，的确，斯贝的推比太低了，其推比与WP7相比也是非常低的，要知道WP7的原型Р11Ф-300发动机只是50年代初的技术，50年代中期的产品。罗罗也确有改进斯贝的计划，可最终因为需求少而迟迟没有启动。

这里，读者不妨以另外一种发动机做比较，那就是雄猫之心TF30，该发动机最早也是民用型，当时的代号叫JTF-10A，但未获得应用，1961年末，美国空海军提出了F111战术战斗机的设计要求，并选中JTF10A的军用加力型TF30-P-1，该型发动机于1962年夏在B-45飞行试验台上开始飞行试验，1964年12月装于F111A首次飞行，1965年8月完成定型试验，并用于F111A的发展型和头5架的生产型，，最初的TF30的推比只有5。0和斯贝MK202相同，而到了F111F所装的TF30-100型，其推比达到了6。3，类似的经历，不禁使人浮想联翩，既然TF30能从推比5。0提高到了6。3，那斯贝MK202呢?如果把斯贝的风扇换掉，使用高效率，高压比的风扇的话，斯贝的推力肯定可以增加不少，如果再替换高压段，采用预研的核心机技术，把高压压气机和高压涡轮换掉，更新燃烧室的话，推力肯定还会增加，在增推方面可以做的，在减重方面也可以做到，毕竟斯贝MK202的材料都是30年前的了，如果在压气机叶片上广泛采用钛合金，在高压涡轮叶片上采用单晶合金，并在涡轮盘材料上采用粉末盘，整体叶盘技术，风扇叶片采用复合材料，空心宽弦风扇叶片，这样重量完全可以大大减轻，由此可见斯贝推比增加的潜力是巨大的，短期估计能达到6。5，远期在7。0以上也是可能的。

二、阿拉伯人的友谊

中国和阿拉伯人的友谊源远流长，远自唐代就有交往，而在现代，中国人的武器更是源源不断的武装了我们的***兄弟，看看中华人民共和国的武器出口史，可以说就是和阿拉伯世界的友谊史，当然有来就有往，我们付出了，就有了回报，70年代末，我们得到了我们想要的东西，米格21MF和米格23，附带的发动机我们也得到了，那就是Р13Ф-300和Р29。

自从研制了Р11Ф-300以后，图曼斯基设计局一刻也没有停止过对该发动机的改进，随后的Р13Ф-300和Р25就是它的直系后代，当然在千里之外的中国，人们也在做着同样的努力，空心涡轮叶片的研制成功，使中国继美国之后成为第二个拥有该技术的国家，以致于若干年后罗罗的总师胡克看到这一成果时说的第一句话就是不虚此行。但随后的岁月里，封锁和动乱使WP7的改进陷于停滞，直到我们得到了Р13Ф-300，有很多人认为WP13就是Р13Ф-300的仿制品，而国内的权威刊物则称该发动机是涡喷7的发展型，但笔者认为WP13既不可能是仿制品，也不可能就是简单的来自WP7，它极有可能是参照了Р13Ф-300的设计，在WP7的基础上研制出来的，在研制过程中WP13开始在压气机上采用钛合金，取代了原本的合金钢，当然WP13也吸取了WS6的成果，(WS6在风扇的用钛量上已经很高了)同时参照了WS6的结构，WP13的某些改型在涡轮叶片上用定向凝固合金取代了合金钢，这样既减轻了重量，又提高了涡前温度，WP13的空气流量相比WP7略有提高，尺寸也有所加大，加力燃烧室的火焰稳定器开始采用我国的沙丘驻涡技术，高压压气机级数相比WP7增加了两级，这样压比也有所提高，循环参数的变化使WP13的推力明显增加，满足了80年代战斗机对发动机推力的需求，也使我国初步步入能参照设计研制中等军用加力涡喷发动机的国家，环顾当时的世界，除了几个发动机大国，美、英、法、苏之外，能做到这点的也只有中国了。

日本和印度当时的情况都处于授权制造阶段，而且国产化率还很低，即使到了今天，日本也只不过是初步具有了研制中等推力发动机的能力，但成果还没出来，日本的中等推力大涵道比发动机XF－710至今还未研制成功，至于印度的卡佛里发动机研制完成还是遥遥无期，印度的基础设施建设还未搞好呢，印度卡佛里发动机的飞行台和高空台试车都是在俄罗斯进行，发动机的零部件转包给欧洲国家进行研制，印度人认为搞发动机就象搞软件一样轻松，可事实证明他们太天真了。印度象显然不能称为有自主研制能力的国家。

WP13B是WP13的大改型发动机，主要的改进是更换了低压压气机，使低压压气机的压比增加，流量增大，效率提高。该系列发动机的研制始于91年，95年进行性能摸底试车，当时达到的加力推力为68。65千牛(7吨)，不加力推力达到47。56千牛(4。859吨)，重量为1。28吨。96年春节过后上高空台用了2个月的时间进行了10次高空模拟试验，4月12日返回黎阳进行150小时长期试车的考验，99年被军方列为重点型号，02年6月16日进行全寿命考核长期试车，03年定型，13B2属于B的增推型号，推力约为7300KG，13F2是13B的适应性单发改型，97年8月顺利通过地面试车，98年6月8日装歼7FS首飞。现13B2已开始配装歼八2F战斗机。

纵观世界中等推力的涡喷发动机发展，7吨推力或许是个阶段性的标志，如果越过这个界标前面就是一片坦途，美国人的J79是这样，法国人的阿塔9K50是这样，英国人的埃汶300也是这样，俄罗斯人的R25更是这样，有了7吨推力的涡喷发动机，战斗机的研制基本就没问题了，尽管5吨推力的发动机就能实现2倍音速的飞行，但要实现更好的机动性和起飞性能，7吨是个临界点。

在这些发动机中J79的重量最重，有1。8吨，几乎可以和大推力的F110发动机的重量相提并论，当然它出来也早，推比也低。但在当时，J79的重量是相当轻的。相比J57和J75，它轻多了，可以说J79是美利坚60，70年代的当家花旦。第一种超过2倍音速的单发战斗机F104，A5双发超音速攻击机，F4重型舰载制空战斗机用的都是它。甚至于犹太人的幼狮也想到了它。有了J79，幼狮的性能连高傲的美国人也不敢忽视，这也难怪，动力是自家的嘛。

再看阿塔9K50，如果用一个词来形容法兰西人的动力，那就是勤勉，高卢人的喷气发动机是在条顿科学家的帮助之下发展起来的，从阿塔101到阿塔9K50，高卢人搞了近20年，推力从1吨起步，一直搞到了7吨，尽管它还是单转子的，但法兰西人从此出师了，发动机四强的桂冠戴在了高卢雄鸡的头上，有了阿塔9K50，法国人也可以玩玩2倍音速常规布局的飞机了，虽然幻影F1的推比相比幻影3降下来了，可起降性能却上去了，如果说幻影3上用无尾布局是由于阿塔9B的推力太小的无奈之举，那现在看来阿塔9K50的推力是足够了。

英吉利人的产品与其说是工业品，更不如说是艺术品，埃汶300也不例外，作为英国第一种轴流式发动机AJ。65的发展型，英国人从来就是精益求精，而且英吉利人从来相信慢工出细活，1945年，二战刚刚胜利的那年AJ。65就开始研制了，而埃汶300的研制开始于50年代，，1951年，罗罗在埃汶100的基础上搞出了埃汶200，随后又搞出了埃汶300。埃汶300和闪电战斗机成为了一对绝配，闪电在短时间内的跨音速巡航，就得益于它有一颗强劲的心脏，闪电的加速性极好，甚至超过他的晚辈F15，要知道F15的推力几乎比闪电大一倍，而埃汶300的推比要比F15的发动机F100和F110小的多。

R25的动力是强劲，任何人都不应该轻视他。60年代后期，图曼斯基设计局在P13-300的基础上发展出了P25-300发动机，并将他装备米格21比斯战斗机，P25主要做了如下改进。1)重新设计低压压气机，压比由8。85提高到9。1，进气流量也有所增大。2)为提高加力状态的推力，加力状态的喷口直径缩小了4~10厘米，涡前温度提高50~80度。R25虽然相比J79，阿塔9K50以及埃汶出来的要晚，但性能上却有过之而无不及，可以说在以上这些发动机中，R25的压比最低，压气机级数最少，但推力几乎和其它发动机相等，而且重量也较轻，有了R25，米格21比斯的增重才能成为现实。

WP13B的出生相比以上这些发动机实在是太晚了，但晚未必是坏事，正因为有了WP13B我们才完成了从发动机制造国向发动机设计国的一次转型，可以说WP13就是一个转折点。

至于R29，国内编号WP15， 国内曾想仿制，后来由于没有装机对象转入技术储备。

三、高空台上的跨越

中国很早就想搞高空台，高空台是一个发动机大国的标志。可长时期以来没有自己的高空台一直是中国航空动力人的悲哀，什么时候有中国人自己的高空台一直是中国几代航空人魂牵梦萦的心愿。

高空台短时间内无法完成，航空人想到了飞行台。中国的发动机高空试验正是从086(226)飞行试验台起步的。该飞行台是在60年代确定方案，由轰6改装而来，1971年完成全部改装。226飞行试验台可以试直径1~1。5米，重量小于3。6吨，推力不超过16。5吨的各类涡喷和涡扇发动机，其试飞包线为高度1万2千米，最大M数0。88，最小飞行速度350KM/H。试验发动机安装在由弹舱改装的发动机吊舱内。试验过程中吊舱可以收放，应急时可以抛掉，以保证飞机安全。为防止被试发动机发生意外，吊舱配有很强的灭火系统，被试发动机由两名空中试验员操作，226飞行试验台可以在真实飞行条件下完成规范要求的试验项目和专题性攻关，预研项目。已进行过的试验项目有:

发动机风车特性试验

发动机空中起动试验

发动机加、减速试验

加力燃烧室接通、切断和工作稳定性试验

发动机防喘系统试验

进入80年代，086飞行试验台又进行了较大的改进和改装。该机经历了30多年的试飞生涯，担负了不少重要型号发动机的空中试飞，如WP5、WP6、WP7、WP8、WP11、WP13、WP14、以及WS11、WEJ11等国产发动机 。为国产战机定型和装备部队立下了汗马功劳，尤其值得指出的是1992年10月086进行国产验证型涡轮风扇发动机（太行的验证型）试验的时候，发动机风扇叶片在高速旋转下断裂并击穿了吊舱隔板，并打坏了母机右起落架的液压控制系统，造成该起落架无法正常收放，为保存这台来之不易的珍贵发动机，机组人员决定冒险进行2点着陆，虽然着陆造成右机翼损坏，但发动机却被完整的保存下来。如今，086飞行台已经退役，而第二代以伊尔76为平台的飞行台已经开始服役。

飞行台虽然可以解燃眉之急，但高空台的有些数据是飞行台无法代替的，从1965年开始经历了30多年的建设之后，中国的高空台才傲然屹立于四川的崇山峻岭之间。有着亚洲第一台之称的SB101试车台（1号舱）是一个连续气源的直接连接式高空模拟试车台。可模拟飞行高度最大为25公里、模拟飞行速度最大为2。5倍音速、满足标准海平面状态下空气流量为120公斤/秒的航空喷气发动机模拟试车的需要。之后我们在九五期间先后完成了SB121（3号舱）涡轴发动机试车台以及（4号舱）小型航空发动机试车台。“十五”期间，科工委批准了2#高空舱的建设立项，该项目是航空发动机行业内单台套设备投资最大的建设项目。2号高空舱建成之后，不仅可以满足我国新一代发动机研制高空模拟试验的需求，而且能够缓解现有的1号高空舱试验任务繁重的压力，还能够完善和拓展SB101高空台的设备能力。当2号高空舱建设完成后，624所就建成了包括1号舱、2号舱、3号舱、4号舱在内的、能进行流量从2kg/s至150kg/s的涡喷、涡扇、涡轴发动机高空模拟试验的高空台群。现在，2号舱已经开始施工建设，初步预计在2009年前后建成。

在此我们不妨比较一下日本的试车台，日本的试车台93年开工，01年完成，流量在70KG/S，显而易见日本的高空台流量稍微低了点，直接的后果就是推力也稍低点。以日本的高空台的水平而言，要完成中推不算困难，但完成大推显然是很困难的。

流量为700KG/S的巨型台一直是发动机强国的标志之一，有了700KG/S的巨型台，就能完成推力在20吨左右的大涵道比发动机，20吨也就是波音747客机的单台发动机的推力，这也就意味着能研制超大型运输机了。就我国现在的实力而言还不能完成巨型台，但我相信随着我们国家国力的提高和大型飞机的上马，我们一定会在不久的将来实现我国在巨型台上零的突破。

四、巍巍昆仑

2002年5月21日，中国航空报发布了一则激动人心的消息，我国自行研制的第一台具有完全知识产权的昆仑涡喷发动机正式定型，从此之后，中国战机有了自己的“中国心”。昆仑发动机究竟是怎样的发动机。他的意义如何。这还要从1984年说起……

1984，就在WS6下马的那一年，昆仑发动机开始进行验证机研制。606人擦干了眼泪又开始了研制新型发动机的尝试。经过2年零8个月的时间，验证机性能达标。当时昆仑发动机是选用了WP13发动机的三级低压压气机和缩小的斯贝的前7级高压压气机的叶片造型，另外根据涡扇6以及WP15等发动机的设计经验，设计出燃烧室、高低压涡轮和加力燃烧室等部件研制昆仑发动机的。这是一个继承性大，技术风险小，投资较少，周期短的设计方案，可以说WS6的骨血在昆仑上得到一定程度的继承，就当时而言昆仑是中国人所能拿出的最好方案，他集合了中国所能掌握的发动机上的所有技术，而且基本上都是对原有发动机的继承。但事实证明，我们还太年轻，经验还很不够，就是这个不是很难的型号，中国整整用了18年。

1987年发动机转入型号研制，当时正好赶上国家颁布国家军用标准（国军标GJB2410－87），于是国家规定，昆仑发动机要第一个贯彻国军标，而国军标是参考美军标Mil-E-5007D标准制定的涡喷涡扇发动机通用规范，为了贯彻国军标，606所首先组织编制了昆仑发动机型号规范，形成了规范手册，共600多条。

高、低压压气机匹配问题是昆仑发动机研制初期遇到的一个最关键的技术问题。高、低压特性匹配好坏至关重要，它是整台发动机气动稳定性的基础。昆仑发动机早期高、低压匹配问题非常严重，给发动机研制造成很大影响。因高、低压匹配不好，高、中、低转速下都曾出现过失速和喘振问题。86年3月第l台验证机从01次到03次试车，累积运转仅几个小时，就因低压J234压气机出口18片静叶尾流激振使高压1级凸肩叶片折断； 87年4月新修改设计的J234A低压压气机上全台发动机后，慢推力试车后无法加大推力试车，无论转换可调收敛喷管快慢都要引起高压或低压喘振；90年的第三批发动机机307-01次上台试车，当天就引起高压1级叶片断裂故障。由于高、低压匹配问题，使发动机在过渡过程或接、断加力过程经常发生喘振，因而严重地阻碍了早期发动机的研制工作进展。为了解决高、低压匹配问题，低压压气机先后设计了J234，J234A， J234B， J247等14种试验件；高压压气机也先后设计了J237，J237A等13种试验件。其中低压压气机最关键的改进设计是87年底一88年中的J247四级设计方案，重新设计了第3级并增加了第4级，使整个低压裕度较WP13原型有了很大提高。从此之后昆仑的低压压气机级数由3级增加到四级。之后，昆仑发动机于89年3月30日第一次实现了慢车到中间全程12秒加速性，于89年7月第一次实现了由慢车到全加力的全程加速性。高压压气机是在91年4月最后确定了J268放气方案，试验成功后J268于92年装整机，在昆仑4310发动机上最终实现了规范规定的全程加速性要求。至此，昆仑发动机高、低压匹配问题才得到了全面解决。

研制过程中，高压涡轮叶片根部断裂的问题也十分突出，在1987底至1998年初的试车中，就出现了这样的问题，后来经查明，原来昆仑发动机采用了定向凝固无余量精铸复合空心冷却空心涡轮叶片技术，具有世界先进水平，被称为当代航空发动机技术王冠上的一颗明珠。一位某航空大国的著名专家曾经说过:谁掌握了这项技术，谁就拿到了研制先进航空发动机的“金钥匙”。在高温下高速旋转的涡轮工作叶片上，采用气膜冷却技术更因其设计难度大、加工精密复杂，连某航空发达国家的第4代战斗机的发动机也未采用。我国虽然有这方面研究的基础，但还没有工程应用的经验。这次断裂故障的发生就是由于叶片根部壁厚超差，气膜孔再铸层微裂纹及孔边锐角形成疲劳源等综合因素造成。原因找到后，运用改进创新工艺，严格控制操作规程和无损检测 等措施，使这一重大技术难题得到圆满解决。经过5000多次冷热冲击循环试验，叶片完好无损。此后通过大量考核，证明故障原因分析正确，排故措施有效，终于摘下这颗“王冠上的明珠”。

1993年12月12日，昆仑进入试飞，装配歼8C战斗机进行试验。为了保证首飞，面对当时压气机喘振裕度不够，高压压气机和低压压气机工作不匹配的情况，特别是试车时，在中低转速下，经过多级增压的高速气流，在高压压气机那里不能顺畅通过，出现“喘振”现象的难关。经过反复讨论，昆仑的总师严成忠采纳了“两步走”方案：用“放气”方案保首飞；用“不放气”方案保定型。即第一步在高压压气机上设计“放气”装置，防止“喘振”，先保证“昆仑”首飞上天，为第二步解决“不放气”赢得时间，创造条件。经请示上级主管机关，方案获得批准。

进入空中试飞后，随着试验环境的改变，试验项目的增加和试验难度的不断加大，以及我们对发动机研制规律认识方面的不足，发动机先后出现了管路渗漏油 、空中滑油消耗量大、舱温高等问题。以后随着飞行包线范围的扩大，又出现了部分加力脉动、加力点火成功率低、高空大速度飞行喘振停车、高空小速度切断加力停车等十几项重大技术问题。

与次同时，606所还按国军标的要求作了几百项试验，如滑油中断试验、电源故障试验、超温试验、输油管路着火试验，吞入大气中液态水试验等，都比实际飞行使用的条件苛刻。不少试验在我国是首次进行，甚至连试验设备都没有，只能先从设计试验设备入手，接着制造、调试，有的仅设备调试工作就要花好几年时间。设备调试完成后，要进行试验，但国内也不掌握试验技术，而国外严格保密，在资料上不可能查到，所以还要进行试验技术的研究。有的试验开始前就经过2~3年的先期准备。所以原型机研制就拖的时间比较长。就拿滑油中断试验来说，国军标的要求是最高转速时滑油中断30秒，发动机不出现任何损坏 ，而实际要做到这点是相当难的。俄罗斯的AL31F也只能做到中断17秒，最终606人还是成功了。 再譬如说，为了达到拆后机身不拆承力环和机尾罩的维修性要求，昆仑的尾喷管必须比WP13要小，这就增加了难度，但我们还是做到了。由此昆仑发动机的单位迎风面积推力增加到了12200千克力/平方米。

然而，“昆仑”试飞接近尾声时遇到了新的麻烦。１９９７年底在高空大马赫数试飞中，发动机出现喘振停车故障。总部机关成立以严成忠为组长的联合攻关组。严成忠仔细查阅分析数以千计的试飞数据，从纷繁复杂的数百条曲线和壁面静压分布中，找出了末激波的位置，确定了进气道的工作状态，计算出了进气道与发动机的调整量。在联合攻关组会上，他详细分析了故障现象、物理本质和原因，并提出了具体排故措施。但部分同志有疑虑。为了尽快统一认识，决定首先对“昆仑”进行喷水逼喘试验，进一步验证发动机的喘振裕度。１９９８年新年前夕，严成忠飞回沈阳。他办的第一件事就是组织力量日夜赶班设计和制造喷水逼喘试验设备，从设计、加工到安装调试结束，原来说需要３个月，结果只用１８天。

2001年5月21日，昆仑发动机在624所SB101高空台上完成了最后一次高原起动试验，从而为昆仑发动机在北京CS101台、IJYIAM u-4台和624 SB101台先后10次高空台摸底和考核试验划上了一个圆满的句号。2001年6月30日，昆仑发动机在606所A103台完成了QT150小时定型试验的最后一次终校试车，从而为昆仑发动机全面完成“合同”和“型号规范”规定的256项定型考核试验又划上了一个具有历史意义的圆满句号。2001年8月21日，昆仑发动机配装歼八某型飞机总计飞行了658个架次、929个发动机工作小时之后，昆仑-533发动机在歼八某型-01架飞机上完成航定委批准的《昆仑涡轮喷气发动机设计定型试飞大纲》及空军提出的“补充功能检查”试飞科目规定的内容，至此，昆仑发动机设计定型试飞任务也己圆满完成。

“昆仑”发动机在设计过程中，为了保证在空气流量、外廓尺寸、重量"三不变"的情况下，提高发动机性能必须采用先进技术。如选择比现役发动机高的热力循环参数，总增压比和涡轮前温度大幅度提高；带气动雾化喷嘴的环形燃烧室；复合式定向凝固无余量精铸气冷涡轮叶片，压气机高扩稳增益技术；大功率附件传动机匣；数字防喘控制技术、涡轮排气温度电子控制技术等等，在保证发动机性能大幅度提高的同时，还有高的可靠性。此外，在新材料 、新工艺的运用以及试验、检验等多方面技术都有新的突破。相比WP13，其压比从9提高到14，低压压气机级数由3增加到4，高压压气机由5级增加到7级，从压比可以看出昆仑接近于R25，也是我国发动机从低压比向高压比发展的一个跨越，在防喘方面，昆仑采用了压气机高扩稳增益技术和数字防喘技术，燃烧室由环管形变为环形并带有气动雾化喷嘴，另外昆仑的涡轮进口温度也达到1450K以上的水平，这对材料也提出了更高的要求，因而涡轮叶片采用了定向凝固材料，并采用了复合式无余量精铸工艺。

2002年的珠海航展上。AVCI1又推出了昆仑发动机的最新改型昆仑2发动机，昆仑2在低压压气机部分采用了三元流技术，昆仑2验证机的推力达到了7。8吨，昆仑2的单位迎风面积推力达到了13000千克力/平方米，在国内外，这个数据也是少见的。而单位迎风面积推力直接关系到推力和阻力的比，单位迎风面积推力越大，推力和阻力的比也就越大，飞机的平飞速度和加速性越好，作战性能和机动性就越好。据严成忠所言，由于昆仑2的转数相比昆仑还可以有2％的增长，因此至少还可以再增大200千克的推力，由此8吨级的昆仑2是完全可以预期的，利用昆仑发动机的核心机和低压压气机放大改进型，可以派生发展一种高性能、低成本的小涵道比加力涡扇发动机。其最大状态起飞推力可达83KN以上，其中间状态推力为55KN推力级。它适用于新的轻型歼击机，其不加力型则可用于教练/攻击机。 昆仑发动机左右可互换。减少备份发动机的台数，减少了发动机的采购费用。发动机寿命长，省油，减少了使用费用，发动机价格虽然比同类发动机略贵，但全寿命周期费用却大大降低。

另外我们不妨用印度的卡佛里发动机比较一下，印度研制真正意义上的军用涡喷发动机始于1977年，当时是GTX-37-14U加力式涡轮喷气发动机，有3级低压压气机和7级高压压气机，分别由单级高、低压涡轮驱动。不加力推力和加力推力分别为4448daN和6427daN。后来，在GTX-37-14U核心机的基础上研制一种GTX-37-14UB加力式涡轮风扇发动机，涵道比为0。215，加力推力8896daN。但由于迎风面积大，未被LCA选中。GTX-35是一种先进的涡轮喷气发动机，有5级高压压气机、环形燃烧室和进口温度更高的涡轮。但因耗油率太高而又未被选中。最后，从1989年3月开始研制GTX35-VS涡轮风扇发动机，又称Kaveri，1991年初核心机上台试验，1992年中全台发动机试车。据印度人士估计，GTX-35VS的研制费用将高达15～30亿美元，美国专家的估计更高，需30～40亿美元。由于资金缺乏等种种因素，目前，发动机研制进展缓慢。估计装本国发动机的LCA要在2007年才能试飞，LCA将先用F404发动机进行飞行试验。如果发动机进度进一步拖延，头50架LCA将都用F404发动机，进而就有可能导致所有的LCA都采用外国发动机。

从上读者不难看出GTX－37－14U涡喷发动机和WP13的推力大小相当，而GTX－37－14UB的涵道比其实称为放气比比较合适，其外涵道的气流对增大推力并没什么意义，主要是给喷管降温，基本属于放气式涡喷发动机，如果WP13稍加改进成为涡扇，完全可以达到他的推力，事实上我国确实也有过这种想法。再看GTX35－VS发动机，其风扇和压气机的总级数为9级，而昆仑的高低压气机为11级，而总压比是卡佛里高，显然卡佛里在这方面是领先了，其单级压比远远超过了昆仑，卡佛里发动机的高低压涡轮初期采用定向凝固材料，这方面也和昆仑类似，但它后期将采用单晶材料，无疑又进了一步，可以说卡佛里从性能上来说是十分先进的，但发动机毕竟不是先进技术的堆砌，没有扎实的功底，有再好的想法也终究是水中花，镜中月。随着F404装备LCA，印度象独立完成国产发动机的梦想又将成为泡影。没有强大的工业基础是不可能完成军用高性能航空发动机的研制的，而中国为了这一天整整走了52年。

另外我们不妨比较一下法国幻影2000所用的发动机M53，法国继阿塔9K50之后于1967年开始着手研制M53，并于1976年定型，1979年开始量产。M53是法国搞出来的第三代发动机，尽管它在第三代发动机中只不过是个丑小鸭。如果严格来说，它只是一种二代半的发动机，但他来的很及时。M53是一种单转子小涵道比加力涡扇发动机，由于是单转子发动机，M53被迫选取很小的涵道比，这样必然带来耗油率的上升与推力的不足，这也影响了幻影2000的航程与推比。最初的M53只有推比5。9左右，推力只有8。5吨。直到80年代定型的M53P2，推比才达到6。5，推力达到9。8吨。

但就是这种推比不及7的发动机也是我们在80年代所羡慕的，如果我们的WS6能够完成的话，水平应该和M53相当，事实上当时中国的发动机也就和法国人差不了多少时间，但法国人坚持下来了，而我们由于种种的原因，WS6下马了。80年代的中国实在太缺发动机了。时至今日，有了昆仑2后，我们可以理直气壮的说，我们的昆仑2发动机比M53要好。从耗油率来看，两者不相上下，而推比上昆仑完全占有优势，唯一有所缺憾的是推力上昆仑2略显不足。这也难怪，昆仑比M53轻了近300公斤。但如果昆仑进一步发展到昆仑3，完全可以在推力上超过M53P2。

面对成果，我们也不能否认昆仑来的太晚了，它是一朵午夜的幽兰，虽然开得芬芳馥郁，但却只能孤芳自赏，和它直接关联的型号下马了。但柳暗花明又一村，随着新型战机的问世，昆仑又找到了用武之地，不久的将来，我们将会看到装备昆仑发动机的战机飞翔在祖国的蓝天，去书写中国空军的又一个传奇。

核心机之路

五、山姆大叔的礼物

美利坚人是高傲的，他们的发动机在世界上也是数一数二的，从引进英国发动机开始起步，凭借在工业上的雄厚实力，新英格兰人就一直执世界航空发动机制造之牛耳。



新中国建立伊始，中国空军的战斗机就和美国战斗机角逐在朝鲜的天空，一母同胞的美苏发动机也因此兄弟阋墙。不打不相识，随后的越南战争中，中国也开始了对美系发动机的研究，从鬼怪F4所用的J79到当时最先进的F111所用的TF30，中国或多或少的都得到了，并将其技术用在了自研发动机上，譬如WS6，WP13和昆仑，但当F100出世时，中国明显落后。无论是在研还是现役的发动机都无法对抗F100。



越南战争后，美国在世界上步履维艰，苏联的实力越来越强，而此时的中国也在寻找出路。伴随着乒乓外交，尼克松访华，美国和中国这两个伟大的国家终于站到了一起。随着中美关系的解冻，中国也开始寻求美系发动机装备飞机的可能。F404和F100、F110都列上了引进目录。事实上美国也想借助中国的力量来压制苏联，但他只想有限度的提高中国发动机的实力，如用老迈的J79装备F16来敷衍中国，为歼八2换装F404等。而在超7战斗机的发动机选型中美国向中国提供了三种发动机的方案PW1120、F404和PW1216。其中PW1120是普惠公司在F100发动机的基础上改型设计的连续放气式双转子加力涡喷发动机，并被用于以色列“狮”战斗机的动力，瑞典的JAS39初期也想应用PW1120，另外美国鬼怪F4战斗机当初也想把PW1120作为换代发动机。



从数据上看，PW1120可以说是一种十分先进的涡喷发动机，如果超7能装上PW1120，那其性能肯定是相当棒的。至于F404，报道已经很多了，美国通用电气（GE）的产品。作为F/A-18大黄蜂的动力，其性能也是有目共睹的，美国的F5的单发改型F20虎鲨和瑞典的JAS39以及韩国的T50金鹰都应用了该发动机，可靠，推力强劲是世界各国对F404公认的评价，其基本型加力推力在7。3，不加力推力4。9吨推比7。24，重量接近1吨，加力耗油率1。65。从重量上看，可以说该发动机也是十分轻的，精致和轻巧是人们对F404的第一印象，从油耗看该发动机的加力耗油率是涡扇发动机中少见的。至于PW1216，该发动机最早起源于美国普惠发动机公司于50年代为A4攻击机研制的不加力涡喷发动机，PW1216是其加力改型，主要改进有新型封严件，新型油泵、新型加力燃烧室和新材料。普惠发动机的主要计划是在该发动机的基础上采用中国WP7B或WP13涡喷发动机的加力筒体和相应系统构成其中国改型，该发动机的加力推力7。425吨，最大推力5。4吨，推比6。6。普惠公司还讨论了该发动机在中国联合生产以及与成飞协调了PW1216发动机加装超7战斗机的技术方案。



从三种发动机方案看，PW1120和F404都是不错的选择，而PW1216则采用了60年代发动机的方案，更接近于后来的WP13B和昆仑，而且当时中国已经开始了昆仑发动机的发展，昆仑要好于PW1216，所以中国倾向于选择前两者，但事实上美国更愿意把PW1216推销给中国，虽然此时正处于中美蜜月，但对中国，美国是有戒心的。毕竟美国在战后的两次大规模地面战争都和中国有关，美国当时更倾向于利用中国牵制苏联，而不是真正与中国结盟。况且先进发动机技术是任何一个国家都不愿意轻易转让的，美国当然也深谙此道。89年64动乱之后，随着东欧巨变，苏联解体，美国开始了对中国的武器禁运，此事也就不了了之。世上没有免费的午餐，天上没有掉下的馅饼，事实也证明只有自主创新，才能创造出中国发动机的新局面……



没有得到美系发动机，但美系发动机军用标准和研制方法却被我们所了解，其中美国通过核心机研制发动机的方法引起了我们的关注。



要谈核心机首先得从美国的核心机发展之路说起，美国是率先搞发动机核心机的国家，美国最大的发动机研制单位是两家。即P&W和GE，他们在60年代初首先发展出了各自的第一代核心机GE1和STF200，随后又发展出了各自的第二代核心发动机GE9和JTF22，JTF22经过发展就是世界上第一台推比八的大推力小涵道比军用加力涡扇发动机F100，而GE9则发展出美国第一种轰炸机用大涵道比军用加力涡扇发动机F101。F101的缩小版就是GE15核心机，GE15经改进就是YJ101放气式涡喷发动机，YJ101的低压压气机经放大改进成为风扇后就是F404。F404的风扇经放大后装上F101的小涵道比改型就是F110。美利坚在核心机发展上体现出的是游刃有余与高效性，一批又一批的发动机通过核心机发展诞生，其中既有军用的也有民用的。从美国的核心机发展之路来看由核心机发展是一种切实有效的发动机发展之路，而且事实上也是这样，几乎所有的发动机强国最后都选择了核心机发展的道路。随着与美国的接近，我们也选择了这样一条道路……



国产中推核心机



我国于1980年起开始实施高性能推进系统工程预研计划（即高推预研），进行发动机先进部件的基础预研工作。耗时10年最终完成了预研课题。期间，我国从某国引进某型中推核心机之后将其作为参照机发展自己的中推核心机，1989年我国决定在10年预研的基础上全力以赴进行“七级高压压气机攻关、并同时开展与七级高压压气机相匹配的带气动雾化喷嘴的短环形燃烧室和全尺寸带气冷叶片的高压涡轮部件的研制”。考虑到将来发展为推比8一级小涵道比中等推力涡扇机的背景型号，因此这台核心机也就被称为中等推力涡扇发动机预研核心机（中推核心机）。



1991年1月正式决定开展中推核心机的研制和中推验证机的方案论证工作。并将中推预研分为三个阶段实施：即三大高压性能部件研制、中推核心机研制和中推验证机的研制。至此中推核心机正式立项研制，这是我国首次遵循“基础研究-关键技术突破-先进部件-核心机-验证机-型号研制”这一发展模式所开展的涡扇发动机研制工作。



中推核心机的研制工作是以624所为总设计师单位，江和甫任中推预研总设计师。从1991年2月起正式开始方案设计， 中推核心机的试制工作由430厂为主承制单位，参加研制的单位有420、460、170、100、606、621、625、西工大、德阳二重等全国21家厂所院校。首台中推核心机的加工和装配仅用了9个月的时间，至1992年11月18日完成加工总装、19日出厂，并于21日运抵624所。 核心机到达后于11月24日安装到地面试车台架上，并通过了质量评审。11月28日进行了启封运转和冷运转，起动机将核心机带转到21。5%转速。12月3日23点20分，核心机首次点火、一次成功！（相对转速达到35%）之后又成功进行了多次点火起动试验，在突破了冷悬挂、一阶临界转速等难关后，经发动机总公司与624所分析决定将发动机推至最大换算转速。12月12日在核心机第11次点火试车中，转速推到地面最高转速（换算转速达101。3%），核心机运转良好，振动小，排气温度等参数均正常！



由于核心机的工作环境是处于发动机的风扇（低压压气机）出口处，当发动机在地面台架运行时，核心机进口压力一般为0。35~0。45MPa，进口温度为430~470K。而在空中飞行时（如中低空、大速度），核心机进口压力可达约0。56MPa，进口温度约600K。中推核心机在设计时是以地面台状态，背景发动机在标准大气下工作时风扇出口气流条件为设计点。为节约试验经费和减少试验风险，第一台中推核心机的初步试验考核是在地面台架上进行，在取得有关性能数据及考核各部件匹配关系的情况下，再安排第二台核心机进行高空台模拟风扇出口温度、压力等工况下的进气加温加压试验。由于我国尚无专用的核心机试验设备，而新建一套试验设备不仅耗资巨大且建设周期也无法赶上核心机的研制进度，因此只有利用我国唯一的大型直接连接式高空试验设备—SB101高空台。



第二台中推预研核心机用来进行高空台试验，主要目的就是前述提到的模拟风扇出口条件下考核核心机性能和结构强度。430等承制单位克服了进度紧、难度大、经费不足的不利因素，于1993年12月19日完成了加工组装，并于12月22日运抵624所。 核心机抵达后， 29日下午首次点火成功，在31日晚，中推核心机达到了100%换算转速，状况正常。至此，核心机高空台第一阶段的试验提前胜利结束！此阶段共起动58次，累计运行282min，其中最长一次连续运转85min。 1994年1月3日下午核心机按预定计划下台分解，检查，除发现压气机转子不平衡量过大外，其余一切正常。经重新平衡、装配之后上台，1月14日开始进行第二阶段试验。1月15日，向最高设计目标冲刺。经过一夜奋战，于16日晨7时24分顺利达到最大设计状态，进气温度、进气压力和物理转速都达到设计值！各项试验结果表明中推核心机高空台试验性能已达到设计指标，三大部件匹配良好，结构强度也得到了初步考核。比原计划提前了11个月性能达标。



之后中推于1997年获准开展整机验证机研制，于1999年因经费原因被迫中止。



中推核心机的主要性能指标、制造技术、设计技术已与F404（YJ101）、CFM56（F101）、РД-33等涡扇机的核心机水平相当。



六、欧洲恋情



除了与美利坚合作外，欧洲人也开始向中国介绍他的核心机技术。



欧洲的核心机发展之路是在美国之后开始的，最早开始的是XG20和X15计划，主要是改进RB199，超7发动机选型时也考虑过RB199。而始于1982年的XG40计划的核心是为验证罗罗公司的技术，使其满足90年代中期使用的先进战斗机发动机的要求而进行的。这项计划由英国国防部和罗罗公司联合出资。XG40核心机最后被发展为EJ200发动机。随着中美关系的解冻，从80年代开始，这些技术也随着欧洲对中国的态度转变而通过技术交流进入中国。



与此同时我们也接触了法国的M88的技术。M88的研制始于70年代，有人认为M88的最初型号借鉴了CFM56的技术，而CFM56的核心机就是F101的核心机，法国于1983年开始核心机试验。现已投入使用，并已衍生至推比9的M88-3，其推力已经达到9吨。



90年代初期，随着苏联的解体，中俄关系开始正常化。中国从俄罗斯引进了苏27战斗机，俄罗斯的侧卫成为了中国的蓝鲨。发动机技术的引进也随着侧卫的到来而开始了，从推比7的AL31F到推比10的AL41F都引起了我们的注意，而其中推比12~15的P2000核心机引起了我们强烈的兴趣。P2000是俄罗斯继AL41F之后的新一代发动机计划，它是俄罗斯按照美国的核心机发展思路而开展的核心机计划，通过邀请俄罗斯专家讲课，以及技术引进，我们对俄罗斯的P2000计划有了一定的了解，并交换到一些技术。以此为基础，从90年代初起，我们开始了我们的新的高推计划 我国于1993年开始规划的新一代高性能燃气涡轮动力技术预研计划，其整体技术目标是使发动机单位推力达到120daN·S/kg，推重比提高(涡轴、桨发动机的功重比提高)。该计划包括百余项关键技术，开设了百多个研究课题。该计划目前进展顺利，所获得的技术成果将应用于在役、在研发动机的改进和新一代飞机用发动机的研制。



高推预研共完成上百项关键技术研究课题，开发了几百个计算机程序，取得很大的成绩。虽然这些研究成果的验证并不充分，但大部分已被应用于型号研制和改进改型。通过二个大型预研计划的实践，使我们对预先研究工作的特点及规律有了进一步的认识。通过高推计划，我们也开始了推比10发动机的发展。



推比10核心机的进度



1、 84年开始推重比10发动机预研的技术论证，88年4月召开了预研选题论证会，90年正式立项开题。



2、94年完成了6个总体方案的顶层设计，完成了项目指南和综合论证，93～96年开展对俄合作，并获得俄罗斯P2000的部分技术。



3、基本确定了推重比10发动机总体方案。有些课题，如平均级压比达1。62的三级压气机研究已经取得了良好进展。



4、九五期间我们搞出了推比十发动机的三大高压部件，并于十五期间进入验证型核心机阶段。2005年的春天，激动人心的消息传来，624所历经15年研制的推比10核心机CJ2000点火成功，这为我国的推比10一级的发动机发展打下了坚实的基础，同时根据CJ2000核心机放大或缩小就可以发展出不同推力量级的高性能发动机来。我相信，在不久的将来，我们将会看到装配推比10发动机的新型国产飞机翱翔在祖国的蓝天。



七、材料上的突破



材料是工业的基础，发动机也不例外。而且发动机对材料的要求更苛刻。以下简单介绍一下两种正在应用的先进材料



高温合金是铁基、镍基和钴基高温合金的总称，又称超合金。铁基合金使用温度一般比镍基合金低，可做中温使用的零部件，如700℃以下使用的涡轮盘。镍基合金用来制造受力苛刻的热端部件，如涡轮叶片、导向叶片、燃烧室等，在先进的发动机中，镍基合金占总重量的一半。钴基合金因其具有良好的抗热腐蚀性能和抗冷热疲劳性能广泛用作导向叶片。国外铸造合金随定向凝固、单晶、超纯熔炼技术的发展，从定向正发展至单晶。单晶合金也已先后研制出三代产品。单晶合金是提高涡轮前温度、高推比的必须。国外现役发动机叶片材料主要采用第二代和第三代单晶合金，目前发展低成本（少Re）三代单晶合金，发展多孔单晶发散叶片。开发出第四代单晶。 我国先后发展了2代单晶合金，即DD3和DD6。DD3已经开始用于涡轴发动机，DD6可能在太行发动机生产型上得到应用。



涡轮盘是发动机重要的热端部件之一。它在极为苛刻的条件下工作，飞行时承受着启动-停车循环中的机械应力和温差引起的热应力的迭加作用，因而要求材料具有足够的力学性能和理化性能，特别是在使用温度范围内要有尽可能高的低周循环疲劳和热疲劳性能，这是确定涡轮盘工作寿命的关键因素。



在粉末盘之前，盘件用的γˊ相沉淀强化型合金由于强化元素不断地增多，严重的偏析使热加工性能恶化，低周疲劳性能降低，裂纹容易扩展，且投料比达19：1以上。投料比高和锻造工艺复杂，使其成本大为提高。60年代末期，随着高纯预合金粉末制造技术的兴起，美国 PW公司首先将当时的盘件合金ASTROLOY制成了粉末盘。粉末盘的出现，解决了涡轮盘合金高合金化造成的凝固偏析和变形困难，提高了力学性能，而且性能波动小。在目前的涡轮盘制造技术中，粉末冶金已成为制造高性能涡轮盘最成熟可靠的方法，粉末盘已广泛用于美俄等国多种先进发动机的研制和生产中。



粉末（镍基）高温合金晶粒细小，组织均匀，无宏观偏析，合金化成度高，屈服强度高，疲劳性能好，是制造高推比新型发动机涡轮盘等部件的最佳材料。目前在粉末高温合金领域，美国和俄罗斯工艺各异，都居于世界领先地位



用于高推重比发动机涡轮盘的粉末合金第一代有In100、Rene95、APK-1、ЗП74НП合金等。GE用HIP，HIP+热模锻，HIP+HIF（等温锻）和EX（挤压）+HIF的Rene95粉末盘，轴等高温部件。俄罗斯研制的ЭП741HП合金用量最大，1550MPa以上 ，750℃，100h的持久应力达750Mpa。主导制造工艺路用温度达700℃的ЭП962П高强合金与Rene95类似。使用母合金熔炼及电极棒浇注加工→ 等离子旋转电极制粉→ 粉末处理→ 粉末装套及封焊→ 热等静压成形→ 热处理→ 机加工→ 检验→ 成品。 推重比10发动机涡轮盘用的二代粉末合金有Rene88DT、N18、MERL-76、ЗП975合金。盘件合金实现了由高强型向耐损伤型的转变，强度稍有降低，但疲劳裂纹扩展速率下降较多，工艺性能得到改善，设计的使用温度达到750℃或更高。采用铸造及激光打孔工艺直按制造发散冷却孔道。 第三代粉末盘发展有双组分（AF115+MER-76）、双重热处理组合盘。该粉末盘是推比12~15的发动机所用的关键技术



中国650℃第一代高温合金粉冶FGH95在77年进行研制，从德国Heraeus公司引进了部分研究设备仿制Rene95合金。84年底模锻出Φ420mm的全尺寸涡轮盘，基本达到Rene95性能。展开母合金熔炼，氩气雾化制粉，粉末处理，热等静压成形，等温锻，热处理，超声检验及表面强化等研究，发现工业生产等工艺问题严重。从俄国引进工业化生产的等离子旋转电极制粉设备及盘件生产线，95年底全部投产，从根本上解决了粉冶高温合金的粉末质量问题。95年西南铝加工厂用包套锻造工艺成功地模锻出10A盘用的φ630mm的粉冶FGH95 合金涡轮盘，经过潜心研究度过了淬火关，得到快速冷却而不裂的涡轮盘。但是发现问题，以后倾向于采用HIP+等温锻（或热模锻）工艺路线。FGH95合金使用温度为650℃，拉伸强度可以达到1500Mpa。在650℃、1035MPa应力条件下，持久寿命大于50小时。现已由红原采用一万吨油压机等温锻出太行发动机需要的全尺寸FGH95粉末冶金涡轮盘。



另外我们也在搞第二代粉末冶金FGH96、FGH97合金，可在750℃下使用。2004年红原试制出推比10发动机用的全尺寸FGH96粉末冶金涡轮盘。目前北京科技大学高温材料及应用研究室正在根据高推重比研究计划和设计部门要求，填补国内先进涡轮盘材料空白，为高推重比航空发动机材料储备关键技术，进行“十五”攻关项目高推重比发动机用粉末高温合金第三代双性能涡轮盘研究，750-850℃难变形高性能高温合金盘材的研制。863“高熔点结构材料快速凝固喷射成形制备技术”子课题，研究喷射成形高温结构材料的特殊微观结构及其与高温蠕变和疲劳性能的关系，为应用建立基础。



除了以上材料外，正在应用的还有金属间化物高温材料，锆陶瓷涂层，陶瓷基材料，钛合金材料，复合材料，变形高温合金材料，本文就不一一赘述了。



八、盛开在太行山上



2006年2月24日，中国航空报头版刊登了我国首台有自主知识产权大推力军用加力涡扇发动机太行发动机定型的消息，消息传来，大家都欢呼雀跃，欢欣鼓舞。



但太行究竟是怎样的发动机，他的由来是怎样的呢？



80年代初期，我们搞到一批CFM56-3，这种发动机的核心机就是F101的核心机，而F101的核心机的衍生就是F110的核心机。F110是一种十分优秀的发动机。它的生产商是通用电气公司，简称GE。80年代初期，GE公司通过以先进发动机核心机为基础，不断吸取各种预先研究计划和部件改进计划中获得的成熟技术以及直接移植使用中的发动机技术，研制出性能高、可靠性好、寿命长、使用维护成本低、研制风险小的F110系列发动机。



F110是以F101的核心机和F404的风扇与喷管等技术为基础研制的一种推重比7的涡扇发动机，1986年装F-16C/D服役。之后，在F110-GE-100的基础上改进发展了F110-GE-129IPE（改进性能发动机），推力达129千牛，推重比为7.28，1991年装F-16C/D和F-15A/C服役。在F110-GE-129IPE装备部队后，又以该发动机的技术为基础，采用综合高性能涡轮发动机技术（IHPTET）计划等预先研究计划和部件改进计划(CIP)的成果，研制F110-GE-129EFE发动机。1991年10月，其验证机F110X的海平面试验推力达到162千牛，推重比接近9.5。转入工程研制阶段后，历经10年提高性能、可靠性、耐久性和减轻重量等方面的大量试验研究，取得了巨大进展，并以最大推力为151。4千牛通过定型审定，2002年投产。



按美空军的建议，将推力142千牛的F110-GE-129EFE命名为F110-GE-132；将推力为151.4千牛的命名为F110-GE-134。 F110-GE-100的风扇是按F404的风扇比例放大的，由2级改为3级，压比由2.0提高到3.2，涵道比由2.01减到0.87，直径减小到0.97米。高压压气机、燃烧室和高压涡轮与F101的相同。低压涡轮以F101的为基础重新设计，仍保持2级，但为适应新风扇的需要，提高了转速。加力燃烧室是F101的缩小型。排气喷管由F404的改进而来。轴承除5支点外，其余与F101的相同。GE公司对核心机以外的部件和系统进行了比例缩小和减轻重量的处理。 F110-GE-129IPE继承了F110-GE-100型81%的零、组件，少量部件做了改进。采用新材料，使涡轮进口温度提高55℃～80℃；采用改进性能的全权限数字式电子控制器，代替模拟式电子控制器和液压机械式控制器；涵道比由0.87降为0.76。



F110-GE-129EFE（增强型战斗机发动机）的风扇是采用F118和IHPTET的风扇研究成果设计的一种3级整体叶盘结构的风扇。由于运用三元流技术进行设计，风扇效率显著提高，空气流量增加7%，压比由3.4提高到4.2；采用整体叶盘，消除了燕尾槽和阻尼凸台等处的应力集中，简化了结构，减少了零件数，减轻了重量，减少了泄漏；第1级采用宽弦叶片，用激光冲击强化技术，进一步提高抗外来物损伤能力，这些都提高了可靠性和可维护性。 加力燃烧室从F120和F414加力方案衍生而来，以径向火焰稳定器取代三圈环形稳定器，使结构更简单，零件数减少15%，重量减轻3%，维修性和可靠性得到改善；由于采用三维计算流体力学进行设计，使效率更高、点火特性更好。尾喷管在继承F110-GE-129IPE高可靠性的基础上，其外套的隔热防震衬直接将气膜冷却空气引至后端的调节片和密封片中，使寿命、可靠性和维修性都有明显改善；结构上稍做改进，使其具有装引射喷管或三维矢量喷管的能力。燃油系统采用全权限双通道数字式电子控制器(FADEC)，实现连续调节尾喷管的喉道面积，提高了发动机推力和风扇的喘振裕度，减少了尾喷管的阻力，改善了在整个飞行包线内发动机的可操纵性。通过采用复合材料风扇机匣、改进涡轮叶片的材料和冷却技术等一系列改进措施，改善了发动机性能、减轻了重量、提高了寿命，降低了使用和维护成本。



F110XX，是F110X的衍生型。F110XX在海平面静态推力额定值与F110X相同，但在高马赫数飞行时将产生更大的推力。为此将装一台正在研制的新型压气机。F110X及F110XX的核心机与F101的核心机没有大的变化。



80年代初期，以TF30，F100为动力的三代战斗机F14，F15，F16由于发动机的问题，大面积停飞，美国空海军战斗机面临着无法上天的窘境，此时F110就应运而生了。



F110的原型机F101DFE在F16和F14上进行了大量的试飞，结果达到甚至超过了原先预期的目标，如在F14的试飞中显示，飞机的留空时间和作战半径比原装的TF30提高25%；1982年的一次试验中达到了5004个战术空军循环，其热部件寿命是当时的F100-PW-100以及F100-PW-200的三倍，1984年，F110被美军定为F14B/D、F15、F16的动力装置，1986年，F110作为应急动力，装上F15投入使用，解了美空军的燃眉之急，但F110作为正式动力装配F15则是在20年之后，2005年，F110－GE－129作为标准动力装上韩国的F15K战斗机，此前F15的正式动力还是F100。另外美国在80年代的F16生产型上就开始应用F110，先后使用F110的F16有批次30，批次40，批次50和批次60。特别是批次60，首批出口阿联酋，选用了F110家族中最先进的F110－GE－132发动机，强劲的推力使该批次的战斗机拥有无与伦比的实力。至于应用于F14B/D上的F110－GE－400发动机，可以这样说由于换了F110，雄猫才真正成为了天空的主宰，才真正成为飞行员放心的恋人。增加了超过4吨推力的雄猫，推比超过了1，过去为飞行员所病诟的喘振裕度低，失速等问题被一脚踢进了垃圾桶，过去的短处成为美国海军飞行员最值得夸许的长处。



1986年，为了配合歼10战斗机的研制，以CFM56核心机经改进发展出一款大推力涡扇发动机配装歼10战斗机的规划正式立项。当时瞄准的目标就是F110-GE-129，随后就开始了核心机的改进工作，1987年，开始进入验证机研制阶段，1993年完成。之后开始型号研制，考虑将其作为歼11和歼10两种战机的动力，并申请了一架苏27作为试飞平台。可以说，这是一个极具风险的选择，我国的两种主力战斗机动力的宝都压在太行发动机的身上，一旦失败，对我国的国防和发动机发展都将造成无法弥补的损失。97年进入发动机与型号匹配的突击阶段。2000年底开始高空台试车。02年6月装单台太行发动机的苏27试飞台进行了首飞，02~03年开始试装歼10战斗机。05年5月11日开始定型持久试车，2005年11月10日通过长久初始寿命试车，05年12月28日完成定型审查考核。



2003年，“太行”发动机研制工作进入决战决胜阶段。由于对发动机研制规律的认识和把握上还有不小差距，加上质量管理和工作作风等方面存在一些问题，导致研制工作几度陷入困境。先后经受了两次大的考验：一次是发动机在试车时，发生了高压压气机四级盘破裂事故；第二次是在高空台模拟试验和调整试飞中，先后暴露出一些技术问题，如高空小表速发动机加速慢等。 飞机在2003年8月下旬至9月上旬的试飞中，5个起落出现3次“特情”。2004年夏天，太行发动机在进行规定试飞时，发生发动机空中停车，虽然最后安全返回，但使太行发动机机研制陷入被动。 606所与行业内外的专家共同分析排故对策，并进一步做好故障研究和故障分析工作，先后完成17份故障计算、研究、分析报告，最后恢复了太行发动机的定型试飞。解决了如地面喘振、空中异常响声、试车温度异常和小发提前脱开等试飞中遇到的多种技术问题。



太行发动机细节



在太行的早期型上，其高压涡轮叶片采用的是DZ125定向凝固合金，但定型批产估计会采用DD6单晶合金，涡轮盘据信早期型应用的是GH4169高温合金，如今已经开始应用FGH95粉末冶金。高低压涡轮采用对转结构，这在第三代发动机上是极其罕见的，美国也只是在第四代发动机F119上开始采用了对转结构，这种设计能减少飞机作机动飞行时作用于发动机机匣上的载荷，使机匣可以作得轻些；还可以省去低压涡轮导向器，使发动机零件数、长度、重量均减少。



据型号总师张恩和透露，太行的最大推力在132KN，推比7.5，涡前温度1747K，这么高的涡前温度在三代发动机中也是少见的。



涵道比0.78，风扇是3级轴流式，可变弯度进口导叶，压比3.4。压气机采用9级轴流式高压压气机（压比12，绝热效率85），高压压气机0~3级静叶可调，5级后放气，燃烧室是短环形带气动雾化喷嘴，高压涡轮是1级轴流式，低压涡轮是2级轴流式，加力燃烧室是V形加径向混合型火焰稳定器，尾喷管是收敛－扩张可调喷管控制系统，这是我国首次在发动机上采用这种喷管，估计很快将换装我国自己的全向推力矢量喷管(AVEN)。



发动机控制系统早期型采用电子数模混合控制系统，后期将采用电子全权数字控制系统（FADEC），支承系统为高压转子为1-0-1，低压转子为1-1-1。



据信，太行的改进型涡前温度已经达到1800K，推力可能接近F110-GE-134为155KN，如果在太行基本型上继续发展，推比达到9.5左右也不是没有可能，太行发动机未来的大涵道比加力改型可以用于轰炸机，而大涵道比的无加力型可以用于未来的大型运输机。



在太行发动机的研制的同时，我们也接触到了俄罗斯SU27战斗机的发动机AL31F的技术，AL31F发动机的喘振余度大，抗畸变能力强的特点也体现到了太行的身上，可以说太行是集东西方之大成的发动机，它汇集了中国航空动力几代人的智慧和汗水，也凝聚着总师张恩和的心血。



AL31F简介



АЛ-31Ф为留里卡设计局在1976～1985年间研制的加力式涡轮风扇发动机。在研制中曾遇到极大的困难。一是超重。起初，发动机有4级风扇、12级高压压气机、2级高压涡轮和2级低压涡轮共20个级。结果发动机超重，达1600kg，而推力仅11000daN，不得不进行大改。改后的方案，风扇仍为4级，但高压压气机减为9级，高低压涡轮各为1级，总级数降到15级，于1976年将重量降到1520kg，但故障很多。为排除故障重量又有增加，约增加了10%，后来采用每减重1kg奖励5个月工资的办法，减轻了70公斤，实现了原定的重量目标。二是涡轮效率比设计值低4%，后来决定接受这个现实。但为了达到性能，只好将涡轮进口温度由1350℃提高到1392℃。结果涡轮叶片裂纹，为此改进了冷却流路，流路十分复杂，采用了旋流冷却，用了新的工艺和好的材料，表面加钴、镍、铬、铝涂层。为此曾撤换过5名领导。在1976～1985年期间，共解决了685个难题。AЛ-31Ф设计中共获得128项专利，使用51台发动机，总运转22900h，其中台架试车16625h，试飞6275h。



就结构而言，AL31F是十分先进的，AL31F的结构源自RD33，俄罗斯最初想利用通过特殊手段获得的F100的结构来参照设计一款发动机，但没有成功，最后参照了RD33的结构经放大后研制出AL31F。AL31F的高压压气机的压比并不算高，低于美系同类发动机。但有弊也有利，压比低后，其喘振裕度高，进气道畸变不敏感的优点就突出的显示出来，诸如眼镜蛇机动，尾冲等高难度动作正是得益于这一点。AL31F寿命相比美系发动机也低，这主要体现在工艺和材料上，另外俄标相比美标要求低也是个客观存在的现象，俄罗斯人也在改进AL31F，主要是换风扇---直径更大（风扇直径由905毫米增加为924毫米，相应的进气口直径也要增加），压比更高的风扇（最终的改型风扇级数由4级减为3级，压比由3.55增加为4.2，该压比已经接近F110-GE-132的压比）。以及效率更高的涡轮，并采用一些AL41F的技术。同时，留里卡也制造了AL31F的单发改型AL31FN，歼10的首飞和批生产型用的就是AL31FN，其和AL31F和最大区别是附件传动箱由发动机的上方改为下方，并拆去了内外涵道的分流隔板，减轻了发动机的重量，今后该发动机还将采用在AL31F的发展型上的成果，进一步提高推比和推力，并采用与克里莫夫合作的全向矢量喷管。



太行发动机定型之后，我国的主力战斗机及其发展型就有了中国心，我们在先进战斗机的动力上就不再受制于人了，尽管今后的战斗机动力还需要我们的努力，或许还会进口，但有了这第一步，以后就会容易许多，因为里面涉及到的许多东西都是我们的第一次。有了太行发动机，就意味着我们的发动机出师了，如果说昆仑发动机是意味着中国人来了，那太行发动机就意味着我们在发动机大国的行列中有了一席之地，虽然我们现在在发动机大国的排名中是?

转自铁血：http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_3087286_1.html

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## grey boy 2

Heart of our large ships like Aircraft carrier," 30MW gas turbine engine " successfully completed 220 hours of trail run, formal operation next

作为我国海军大中型舰船主动力研发及供货单位，*中国船舶重工703所拥有国内唯一燃气动力、蒸汽动力、后传动装置大型研发中心及大型动力试验站，为我国航空母舰等大型水面舰船提供动力*

科技日报北京9月21日电 记者21日从中国船舶重工集团获悉，该集团公司703所联合有关单位研制的*30兆瓦级燃气轮机驱动压缩机组，当日在我国西气东输3线烟墩压气站完成220小时运行试验即将正式投入运行。此举将结束长期以来我国天然气长输管线燃驱压缩机组依赖进口的历史。




http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/china/2016-09-22/doc-ifxwevmc5148841.shtml*

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## cirr

The coming Zhuhai Airshow is likely to exhibit for the first time 1 or 2 aero engines that are believed to be at advanced stage of development. 

NOT the well-known or often-rumoured WS-15.


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## Beast

cirr said:


> The coming Zhuhai Airshow is likely to exhibit for the first time 1 or 2 aero engines that are believed to be at advanced stage of development.
> 
> NOT the well-known or often-rumoured WS-15.


WS-13X? It need to showcase to potential customer of its capabilities!


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## cirr

Beast said:


> WS-13X? It need to showcase to potential customer of its capabilities!



Nope


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## Beast

cirr said:


> Nope



CFM-56 or Leap X counterpart?


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## aliaselin

9800kgf or 9000kgf. Most possile the first one I mentioned


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## 星海军事

4th generation medium-thrust turbofan engine.

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## Beast

星海军事 said:


> 4th generation medium-thrust turbofan engine.


Then it shall be WS-13X.


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## 星海军事

Beast said:


> Then it shall be WS-13X.


The new engine is a generation more advanced than WS-13, and has a different core, so they are not going to share the same code name.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> The new engine is a generation more advanced than WS-13, and has a different core, so they are not going to share the same code name.



WS-17 or WS-19 for FC-31 v2.0?


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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> WS-17 or WS-19 for FC-31 v2.0?


Not sure yet


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## cirr

Place where WS-15 and other interesting stuffs are being assembled: 







In addition to WS-15 which has a 30kg core, 606 is reportedly also working on WS-XX with a 35 core.

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## cirr

Substantial state funding has been allocated for 40MW intercooled cycle(IC) marine gas turbine based on the Taihang core.

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## cirr

1. WS-20 tests being undertaken on Y-20

2. 15-ton improved Taihang(WS-10X) flight tests in a few years

3. preparations underway for 4th gen. WS-15 flight tests

4. development initiated for improved 4th gen. engine(WS-15X) with a thrust-weight ratio of 12 

5. developments going well for 1200KW WZ-9G, 1500KW WZ-16, 2000KW WZ-10 and 5000KW WZ-20

6. developments initiated for next gen. turboshafts, next gen. medium thrust and 5th gen. with thrust-weight ratio of 15, the last's core started in 2016

7. new family of engines without afterburners at advanced state of development for long-range stealth UAVs,, stealth UCAVs, long endurance UAVs and a long-range stealth stragetic bomber

Above...

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## Signalian

title is misleading.

i came here looking for automobile engines

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## Pepsi Cola

Sarge said:


> title is misleading.
> 
> i came here looking for automobile engines


are you high?


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## Beast

Sarge said:


> title is misleading.
> 
> i came here looking for automobile engines


Troll will get banned. You want to try?

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## Signalian

Beast said:


> Troll will get banned. You want to try?



I didnt find what i came looking for and yes the title is still misleading no matter how you twist it. The title should be something like "Chinese Aviation Engine Information Pool" or something similar to aircraft or aviation.


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## dingyibvs

Sarge said:


> I didnt find what i came looking for and yes the title is still misleading no matter how you twist it. The title should be something like "Chinese Aviation Engine Information Pool" or something similar to aircraft or aviation.



This is the Chinese DEFENSE forum.... If you want info on civilian items go to the "China and Far East" forum.


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## Signalian

dingyibvs said:


> This is the Chinese DEFENSE forum.... If you want info on civilian items go to the "China and Far East" forum.


thank you, you are the first person who makes sense here


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## TaimiKhan

Beast said:


> Troll will get banned. You want to try?



@Sarge 
@Beast 

Sarge is one of our very best & non-trolling member, so plz don't think of banning him. Plus he did got confused as i also have been for months thinking to change the title of thread to look properly as its about aviation engines and not other ones.

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## -------

Sarge said:


> title is misleading.
> 
> i came here looking for automobile engines



I also came in here looking for automobile engines, tittle should be a little more specific ..

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## kuge

the title is misleading ere as i am coming to look for rocket engines...


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## Akasa

kuge said:


> the title is misleading ere as i am coming to look for rocket engines...



I know, right; this is an outrage. I thought I was browsing a thread about game engines.


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## terranMarine

I came to the right place because the title led me to what i was looking for: Chinese engine

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## WarFariX

@SinoSoldier I heard that there is a supercruise version of WS-13 being developed to power FC-31 V2.0 till 2018 and possibly thunders tooo...could u guys share information regarding this. Which ws13 variant is it?


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## 星海军事

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @SinoSoldier I heard that there is a supercruise version of WS-13 being developed to power FC-31 V2.0 till 2018 and possibly thunders tooo...could u guys share information regarding this. Which ws13 variant is it?


WS-13IPE.

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## cirr

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @SinoSoldier I heard that there is a supercruise version of WS-13 being developed to power FC-31 V2.0 till 2018 and possibly thunders tooo...could u guys share information regarding this. Which ws13 variant is it?



WS-13IPE(E) for now, WS-19 in the future.

WS-10IPE is also being worked on.

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## WarFariX

What is WS-13IPE and WS-10IPE....have heard about ws13e and g but never ipe


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## WarFariX

so ws13 ipe will have super cruise?


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## cirr

Breakthroughs, breakthroughs







New special coatings developed for vectoring thrust nozzle high temperature heavy duty drive machanism of a certain aeroengine.

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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> Breakthroughs, breakthroughs
> 
> View attachment 346666
> 
> 
> New special coatings developed for vectoring thrust nozzle high temperature heavy duty drive machanism of a certain aeroengine.








That is not news. It was made public at least three years ago.

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## eldamar

星海军事 said:


> That is not news. It was made public at least three years ago.



Sometimes you would really wonder why papers like this are openly available on the Internet when they should remain classified

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## grey boy 2

Pictures of the new improved "Taihang high - thrust military turbofan engine" at the Air Show China
太行改进型大推力军用涡扇发动机

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Pictures of the new improved "Taihang high - thrust military turbofan engine" at the Air Show China
> 太行改进型大推力军用涡扇发动机




Nice ... and with the gear box on the bottom, it means this one is for the J-10 !

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> Pictures of the new improved "Taihang high - thrust military turbofan engine" at the Air Show China
> 太行改进型大推力军用涡扇发动机


No more Inner ring as compare to previous WS-10A and cover petal is longer.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> View attachment 348163
> 
> No more Inner ring as compare to previous WS-10A and cover petal is longer.




They are indeed still there. The difference is simply that the one now at Zhuhai has its nozzle fully open whereas the one in 2014 has the nozzle closed, so that this inner ring is much more visible.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> They are indeed still there. The difference is simply that the one now at Zhuhai has its nozzle fully open whereas the one in 2014 has the nozzle closed, so that this inner ring is much more visible.
> 
> View attachment 348166


You stubbornly still refuse to accept WS-10B/G? Or you want to argue the petal is still the same short as WS-10A? I gues the fact you are too afraid to lose to me clouds your judgement? From the photo, the petal is clearly much longer and not the short petal. Why are you avoiding this point?

Welcome WS-10G

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## Deino

Beast said:


> You stubbornly still refuse to accept WS-10B/G? Or you want to argue the petal is still the same short as WS-10A? I gues the fact you are too afraid to lose to me clouds your judgement? From the photo, the petal is clearly much longer and not the short petal. Why are you avoiding this point?
> 
> Welcome WS-10G




I don't deny the WS-10B and also don't argue that it is maybe different; I simply note, that these inner pedals are still there ... but Your stubbornness is based on Your wish to assume it now surely looks like an AL-31 so the engines on the J-20 are these new WS-10. And that's still off.

Again may I remind You on the latest fact-check concerning Your claims ??

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> I don't deny the WS-10B and also don't argue that it is maybe different; I simply note, that these inner pedals are still there ... but Your stubbornness is based on Your wish to assume it now surely looks like an AL-31 so the engines on the J-20 are these new WS-10. And that's still off.
> 
> Again may I remind You on the latest fact-check concerning Your claims ??
> 
> Deino



The old Ws-10A is double Inner ring. No matter how it converge, the Inner ring is very obvious. Definitely not like this one.

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## grey boy 2

grey boy 2 said:


> Pictures of the new improved "Taihang high - thrust military turbofan engine" at the Air Show China
> 太行改进型大推力军用涡扇发动机



Close up pictures

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Close up pictures


ws10 or 13?


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## grey boy 2

More close up pictures of the improved version of "WS-10" at the Air Show China
This maybe the clearest picture of WS-10 engine i've ever came across

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## grey boy 2



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## 星海军事

grey boy 2 said:


> More close up pictures of the improved version of "WS-10" at the Air Show China
> This maybe the clearest picture of WS-10 engine i've ever came across



WS-10A, a version rarely entered service.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> WS-10A, a version rarely entered service.




Rarely means at least a few are operational ?? ... Do You know on what type - I presume a Flanker ? - and maybe even within what unit?


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## WarFariX

is there any ws-13 supercruise project going on to power FC-31???? i heard from a very strong source from china


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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

星海军事 said:


> *WS-10A*, a version rarely entered service.



Based on ( @grey boy 2 ) post # 333 ... ... ( Thousands Thanks to @grey boy 2 -- for all your Awesome Pictures )

Sorry, @星海军事 ... ...
WS-10A engines have Gear Box on Top for J-11 series.

Is that a mistake or ... ... you meant ( *WS-10B* ) ... ( Gear Box @ Bottom for J-10 - A, B, C ) ??

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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> is there any ws-13 supercruise project going on to power FC-31???? i heard from a very strong source from china



The ability to "supercruise" does not come from the engine alone, but rather a combination of thrust-to-weight ratio and aerodynamics (low drag coefficient). The FC-31's intended engine, the WS-13E, was reportedly test-flown on the V1.0 prototype on July 1, 2016.

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Rarely means at least a few are operational ?? ... Do You know on what type - I presume a Flanker ? - and maybe even within what unit?


J-10 1004, I suppose



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> Based on ( @grey boy 2 ) post # 333 ... ... ( Thousands Thanks to @grey boy 2 -- for all your Awesome Pictures )
> 
> Sorry, @星海军事 ... ...
> WS-10A engines have Gear Box on Top for J-11 series.
> 
> Is that a mistake or ... ... you meant ( *WS-10B* ) ... ( Gear Box @ Bottom for J-10 - A, B, C ) ??


Only WS-10 and WS-10B possess upper casings.

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

星海军事 said:


> Only WS-10 and WS-10B possess upper casings.



Many thanks.
Could you explain ( what you meant by <_*Upper Casings*_> ) by using some details pictures please ??

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## 星海军事

WS-10




WS-10A




WS-10B (version with uppering casing)

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@星海军事 @Deino 

Many thanks for your efforts.

By < Upper Casing > ... ... did you mean engine Gearbox ?

I thought -- it has been widely accepted that WS-10 / TaiHang engines
designation for all iterations are ... ...

1.) WS-10A is using Top / Upper Gearbox for Flankers.
2.) WS-10B is using Bottom Gearbox for J-10 A, B, C

Does PLAAF use this kind of TaiHang engine designation as shown below ?

WS-10A-G1 and WS-10B-G1 --- G = Gai = Iteration
WS-10A-G2 and WS-10B-G2
WS-10A-G3 and WS-10B-G3
G1, G2, G3 = version ( 1, 2, 3, ... ... and so on )

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> J-10 1004, I suppose
> ....



But that does not make sense !??? ... the J-10A 1004 is as far as I know long retired, so why testing the latest upgrade of the WS-10 in the probably oldest available J-10A ? Wouldn't be at first a twin-engine design a much better testbed ?




星海军事 said:


> ...
> Only WS-10 and WS-10B possess upper casings.




That too contradicts all we know: The WS-10A is clearly the one used by the Flanker versions and this one has the upper-mounted gear-box.

Deino

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## 星海军事

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> @星海军事 @Deino
> 
> Many thanks for your efforts.
> 
> By < Upper Casing > ... ... did you mean engine Gearbox ?
> 
> I thought -- it has been widely accepted that WS-10 / TaiHang engines
> designation for all iterations are ... ...
> 
> 1.) WS-10A is using Top / Upper Gearbox for Flankers.
> 2.) WS-10B is using Bottom Gearbox for J-10 A, B, C
> 
> Does PLAAF use this kind of TaiHang engine designation as shown below ?
> 
> WS-10A-G1 and WS-10B-G1 --- G = Gai = Iteration
> WS-10A-G2 and WS-10B-G2
> WS-10A-G3 and WS-10B-G3
> G1, G2, G3 = version ( 1, 2, 3, ... ... and so on )



No. But there are WS-10B1, WS-10B2 ...



Deino said:


> But that does not make sense !??? ... the J-10A 1004 is as far as I know long retired, so why testing the latest upgrade of the WS-10 in the probably oldest available J-10A ? Wouldn't be at first a twin-engine design a much better testbed ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That too contradicts all we know: The WS-10A is clearly the one used by the Flanker versions and this one has the upper-mounted gear-box.
> 
> Deino


I think, by latest upgrade of the WS-10, you mean WS-10B.

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## Deino

O.k. now I see my fault !

so in consequence the was or is some sort of family:

- at first the plain and simple original WS-10, which was tested in the J-11A (sometimes designated J-11WS-testbed)
- then the first operational one was the WS-10A with usually the gear-box mounted on top and used operationally on the J-11B/BS, J-16 .... this WS-10A was also tested on the J-10A 1004 with the modified gearbox on the bottom.
Are these then called WS-10A1 and A2 ???
- and now the same with the modified WS-10B; again with a WS-10B1 for the Flankers (gear-box on top) and WS-10B2 (gear box bottom) ??

In essence the rumoured 14t WS-10 should then be some sort of WS-10C ... Or am I wrong?

Deino


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> - then the first operational one was the WS-10A with usually the gear-box mounted on top and used operationally on the J-11B/BS, J-16 .... this WS-10A was also tested on the J-10A 1004 with the modified gearbox on the bottom.
> Are these then called WS-10A1 and A2 ???



Gearbox of WS-10A is beneath the cowl, so WS-10As are only suitable for J-10 family. 



Deino said:


> - and now the same with the modified WS-10B; again with a WS-10B1 for the Flankers (gear-box on top) and WS-10B2 (gear box bottom) ??


Right. WS-10B2 is designed for J-10 family, though it is not mature yet.



Deino said:


> In essence the rumoured 14t WS-10 should then be some sort of WS-10C ... Or am I wrong?


WS-10IPE

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@星海军事

To confirm that I understand your explanation on TaiHang engine designations ... ...


1.) < WS-10 with Gearbox on the top >. -- Is that right ?

2.) < WS-10-A with Gearbox on the bottom >. -- Is that right ?

2.) < WS-10-B1 with Gearbox on the top >. -- Is that right ?

3.) < WS-10-B2 with Gearbox on the bottom >. -- Is that right ?

***WS-10-IPE

4.) What does < *IPE* > abbreviate / stand for ?

5.) Where is the gearbox location of WS-10-IPE ? -- Bottom or Top ??


Many Thanks before hand.

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## 星海军事

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> 1.) < WS-10 with Gearbox on the top >. -- Is that right ?
> 
> 2.) < WS-10-A with Gearbox on the bottom >. -- Is that right ?
> 
> 2.) < WS-10-B1 with Gearbox on the top >. -- Is that right ?
> 
> 3.) < WS-10-B2 with Gearbox on the bottom >. -- Is that right ?



Right. Major performances of WS-10A is the same as WS-10.



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> ***WS-10-IPE
> 
> 4.) What does < *IPE* > abbreviate / stand for ?
> 
> 5.) Where is the gearbox location of WS-10-IPE ? -- Bottom or Top ??



Improved Performance Engine. Maybe there will be two versions of WS-10IPE too.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> Gearbox of WS-10A is beneath the cowl, so WS-10As are only suitable for J-10 family.



Just finally to be sure ... so the "standard" Taihang installed in the first J-11B fighters was not the WS-10A but plain and simple the WS-10 ?

Thanks again,
Deino


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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

星海军事 said:


> Improved Performance Engine. Maybe there will be two versions of WS-10IPE too.



My own guess is ( WS-10-IPE ) with gearbox on the Top will be produced first. 
Hence, all those PLAAF Flankers can patrol the ECS and SCS more efficiently ( less refueling ). 

In your opinion, ... ...

1.) Which version will be produced first ( WS-10-IPE ) with gearbox on the Bottom or the Top ?

2.) *WS-15* gearbox -- will it be located at the Top or Bottom ?

Many Thanks before hand.

*Picture of alleged * WS-15 with gearbox on the Top*

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Just finally to be sure ... so the "standard" Taihang installed in the first J-11B fighters was not the WS-10A but plain and simple the WS-10 ?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Deino


Right.



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> 1.) Which version will be produced first ( WS-10-IPE ) with gearbox on the Bottom or the Top ?


Top



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> 2.) *WS-15* gearbox -- will it be located at the Top or Bottom ?


Top

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> ...
> 
> *WS-15* gearbox --Top



Hmmm ... but if the WS-15 is specifically designed for the J-20 and will have a gear-box mounted on top, then the current AL-31 used in the current J-20s cannot be a FN !???

That actually surprises me, since after the Flanker - as far as I know - no recent Chinese fighter uses the Russian system with the gear-bog on top. The J-10, the JF-17 and also the FC-31 use engines with the Western style gear-box on the bottom.
Or will the first WS-15 simply need the gear-box on top since they will be tested on a flanker at first???

Deino



Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> ... *Picture of alleged * WS-15 with gearbox on the Top*
> View attachment 349828




But isn't this only the WS-15's core ?? ... as far as I understand this image, the gear-box isn't shown in the image.


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## Akasa

@星海军事 

What is the current status of the WS-10IPE (rumors have it that it is being tested aboard an aerial platform)? Is it slated for fighters like the J-10D, J-11D, J-16?


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## grey boy 2

Chinese "Thrust Vector Control Systems" shown in the Air Show China 
国产航发矢量控制系统

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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> @星海军事
> 
> What is the current status of the WS-10IPE (rumors have it that it is being tested aboard an aerial platform)? Is it slated for fighters like the J-10D, J-11D, J-16?


No.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> No.



No ??? ... that's a surprise. So what else? As replacements for the legacy J-11A/B and J-15s ??


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## grey boy 2



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## yusheng

new skill for engine make:

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@yusheng 

Many thanks for the picture.
All those 4 items above are manufactured using 3DP tech.

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## Piotr

According to IHS Jane's Defence Weekly Ukraine's Motor Sich to begin licensed production in China


> *Airshow China 2016: Ukraine's Motor Sich to begin licensed production in China*
> *Reuben F Johnson, Zhuhai* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 07 November 2016
> Ukrainian aero-engine maker Motor Sich is to begin the licensed manufacture of several of its products in China, based on an agreement the company signed this year with Chinese industry to form the Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co Ltd, it emerged at Airshow China 2016.
> 
> The joint venture will produce a series of engines originally designed by the Ivchenko Design Bureau and produced by Motor Sich; the entities are co-located in the southern Ukrainian city of Zaparozhye.
> 
> The outline of the agreement calls for several classes of engines to be assembled at a new plant in Chongching, Sichuan Province, including the D-136, MS-500V and TV3-117VMA-SBM1V turboshaft helicopter engines; the AI-450S general aviation aircraft engine; the D436-148FM and D-18T high-bypass turbofan engines; the D-27 counter-rotating, dual-propeller turboprop engine that was originally designed for the Antonov An-70 programme; and the AI-222 series of military jet engines.


Source: http://www.janes.com/article/65323/...or-sich-to-begin-licensed-production-in-china

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## grey boy 2

Chinese new indigenous turbo shaft engine "Jade Dragon" for 5.5tons class helicopter

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## grey boy 2

Chinese new indigenous turbo shaft engine "Jade Dragon" for 5.5tons class helicopter

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## grey boy 2

Chinese new indigenous turbo shaft engine "Jade Dragon" for 5.5tons class helicopter

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## HRK

^^^^ what is shp of this new engine .... ???


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## WarFariX

any idea when would WZ-16 start production?


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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## Han Patriot

What they are showing is DD6, almost 16 year old technology, second gen tech, now there is DD10.
http://www.cjmr.org/EN/10.11901/1005.3093.2014.012

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## Beast

Han Warrior said:


> What they are showing is DD6, almost 16 year old technology, second gen tech, now there is DD10.
> http://www.cjmr.org/EN/10.11901/1005.3093.2014.012


16 years are not too far. CFM engine based on 80s are still widely used now.

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## cirr

Russia bought 8 sets of CHD622V20 diesel engine for its Type 21631 light frigate











The engines are manufactured by Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co., Ltd, a subsidiary of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation(CSIC).

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## yusheng

成都航宇超合金技术有限公司( 母公司为陕西炼石有色资源股份有限公司)正在研制第五代单晶合金及单晶涡轮叶片。4月6号公布说12号会有产品发布，昨天的产品发布信息如下。看了美国的IMR公司的网站，发现它得到了通用电气和普惠公司的认可，似乎值得信赖。如果真是这样，就应该打酒买肉庆祝一下了。方便得话，大家可以打听一下：

2016年4月12日，炼石有色全资子公司成都航宇超合金技术有限公司宣布，高温合金真空冶炼和单晶空心叶片的铸造难关取得突破。
高温叶片是涉及航空发动机安全性能的关键动部件。随着航机的升级换代，叶片也由过去的等轴晶叶片，定向晶叶片升级为技术性能更先进的单晶空心叶片。国际权威第三方检测机构美国麦锡金属处理技术服务有限公司(IMR)出具的检测报告表明，送检的单晶叶片在高温拉伸性能、高温持久性能、宏观金相、显微组织等方面的测试结果均符合欧美标准。这是国内首家单晶叶片成品率达到量产水准的企业。
成都航宇注册资本2亿元，为炼石有色全资子公司。成都航宇当日在成都展示的两款高温合金产品、多款航空发动机叶片和燃气轮机叶片，基本覆盖了目前国内在役、在研的机型。公司有关负责人表示，未来将联合国际国内科研院所、终端用户、社会资本，深度布局航空产业矩阵，在成都双流打造一个贯穿核心材料、关键部件、航空发动机、无人机整机设计制造于一体的产业集群。


http://www.sccast.com/product/

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## kuge

yusheng said:


> 成都航宇超合金技术有限公司( 母公司为陕西炼石有色资源股份有限公司)正在研制第五代单晶合金及单晶涡轮叶片。4月6号公布说12号会有产品发布，昨天的产品发布信息如下。看了美国的IMR公司的网站，发现它得到了通用电气和普惠公司的认可，似乎值得信赖。如果真是这样，就应该打酒买肉庆祝一下了。方便得话，大家可以打听一下：
> 
> 2016年4月12日，炼石有色全资子公司成都航宇超合金技术有限公司宣布，高温合金真空冶炼和单晶空心叶片的铸造难关取得突破。
> 高温叶片是涉及航空发动机安全性能的关键动部件。随着航机的升级换代，叶片也由过去的等轴晶叶片，定向晶叶片升级为技术性能更先进的单晶空心叶片。国际权威第三方检测机构美国麦锡金属处理技术服务有限公司(IMR)出具的检测报告表明，送检的单晶叶片在高温拉伸性能、高温持久性能、宏观金相、显微组织等方面的测试结果均符合欧美标准。这是国内首家单晶叶片成品率达到量产水准的企业。
> 成都航宇注册资本2亿元，为炼石有色全资子公司。成都航宇当日在成都展示的两款高温合金产品、多款航空发动机叶片和燃气轮机叶片，基本覆盖了目前国内在役、在研的机型。公司有关负责人表示，未来将联合国际国内科研院所、终端用户、社会资本，深度布局航空产业矩阵，在成都双流打造一个贯穿核心材料、关键部件、航空发动机、无人机整机设计制造于一体的产业集群。
> 
> 
> http://www.sccast.com/product/


is DD5 employed in latest variant of taihang?


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## grey boy 2

New "Taihang" from the air show China? 新太行！

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## Han Patriot

This is the new blade factory. Note it specifically says rhenium based blades for aerospace engines.




http://news.chengdu.cn/2015/0504/1686473.shtml

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## yusheng

kuge said:


> is DD5 employed in latest variant of taihang?



i am not sure, but as daokou says:

这个时间段恰恰也是中国开始解决单晶叶片的时候，而且正好赶上了太行涡扇十的研制。应该说，中国的太行发动机赶上了好时候。中国发展的单晶材料一直从DD3到DD9（有网友纠正我说的只到DD6），DD3就是“定向铸造单晶第三号材料”的意思。
林左鸣林董在《对话》里拿出来的可以耐2000度高温的就不知道是DD多少了，反正美俄现在还没有能耐这么高温度的单晶叶片，美国的F135发动机被小白和喷子说成耐高温到了丧心病狂的程度也就是可耐高温1700度，意思是我们中国根本赶不上，那林董拿的耐2000度的岂不是打脸吗？












这幅图上许多人并没有发现应该发现的秘密，就是为什么工作人员要给这台2014年珠海航展展出的14吨的太行涡扇十的管路上刷漆？
很简单，参展商告诉你的意思是，这是一台使用过的发动机，也就是说这台太行已经过火了，工作过了。这意思还不明白吗？在高温下烤过的管路颜色不美观，刷刷漆遮着。我眼神不好，伸长脖子看了半天，确实有用过的痕迹，这说明这台太行发动机已经是定型机，按照我们中国人的传统，凡是展出的就有更好的在研制。特别说明，第二张图和第三张图都是我在2014年珠海航展上照的14吨太行发动机，注意第三张14吨太行使用过的痕迹？


http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_777099070102vur9.html

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## Grandy

*J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines?*





Close view of J-20’s engines. Credit: lt.cjdby/hdllmx

CCTV-4 Chinese international channel, special commentator well-known military expert Yin Zhuo in its Asia Today news program, says through the J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines now.
What type this engines?

.

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## Beast

Grandy said:


> *J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Close view of J-20’s engines. Credit: lt.cjdby/hdllmx
> 
> CCTV-4 Chinese international channel, special commentator well-known military expert Yin Zhuo in its Asia Today news program, says through the J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines now.
> What type this engines?
> 
> .


Hybrid home grown engine. (Mix of AL-31F and WS-10 technology)

He mention it not only once but twice and stress on the term 国产. I dare to bet PLAAF chief might have told him something juicy which we commoner will not know regarding J-20 development. Yin Zhuo is a high ranking CPC board member plus ex rear admiral rank. His level to classify data will be much higher than rest.

The rest of his speech during the interview is also consistent with what many military watcher conclude that WS-15 engine has not install on J-20 but he claim 'soon'. Without WS-15, PLAAF military jet engine will still be a generation behind USAF. He commented.

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## Deino

Grandy said:


> *J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines?*
> 
> CCTV-4 Chinese international channel, special commentator well-known military expert Yin Zhuo in its Asia Today news program, says through the J-20 is using China’s homegrown engines now.
> What type this engines?




@Grandy

We had this discussion here already "ad nauseum" and there are actually two parties here: The one side which is jumping high o the bandwagon that the J-20 uses a WS-10, or already WS-15 or - IMO the most unlikely version - a hybrid engine using the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle.

For the other side is confirmed that it is an AL-31N since all evidence and external details confirm this: it looks like this engine, Saturn and CAC have a long established relationship and latest reports confirm this too.

If You are interested, this might be worth a read for You:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink....908984705&id=611223845748378&substory_index=0 

Bu please take Your time and read a bit the arguments of both sides and come to Your own conclusion.





Beast said:


> Hybrid home grown engine. (Mix of AL-31F and *WS-10 technology*)
> 
> He mention it not only once but twice and stress on the term 国产. I dare to bet PLAAF chief might have told him something juicy which we commoner will not know regarding J-20 development. Yin Zhuo is a high ranking CPC board member plus ex rear admiral rank. His level to classify data will be much higher than rest.
> 
> The rest of his speech during the interview is also consistent *with what many military watcher conclude that WS-15 engine has not install on J-20 *but he claim 'soon'. Without WS-15, PLAAF military jet engine will still be a generation behind USAF. He commented.




Honestly I'm glad to notice a subtle change in Your attitude: At least You no longer pretend it *IS* a WS-10 and even more a WS-15. I remember some very harsh words from You after my reply to Your claims where You repeatedly pretend the J-20 is already flying with WS-15.

Anyway ... I'm still very much sceptical about Your theory of a MIX, since this is technical impossible or at last not logical: To add an AL-31FN's nozzle on a WS-10 is plain stupid esp. if the WS-10 is itself an efficiently working engine. That does not exclude that this latest specialised AL-31FN might use certain *WS-10 technology,* but it is still an AL-31FN.

IMO the most likely version which would also explain these reports about an indigenous engine is, hat it is plain and simple a special custom-tailored version jointly-developed and esp. China-funded version, that is PR-wise speaking a "Chinese" engine, but strictly spoken it s a development of the AL-31FN of some sort.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> @Grandy
> 
> We had this discussion here already "ad nauseum" and there are actually two parties here: The one side which is jumping high o the bandwagon that the J-20 uses a WS-10, or already WS-15 or - IMO the most unlikely version - a hybrid engine using the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle.
> 
> For the other side is confirmed that it is an AL-31N since all evidence and external details confirm this: it looks like this engine, Saturn and CAC have a long established relationship and latest reports confirm this too.
> 
> If You are interested, this might be worth a read for You:
> https://www.facebook.com/permalink....908984705&id=611223845748378&substory_index=0
> 
> Bu please take Your time and read a bit the arguments of both sides and come to Your own conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I'm glad to notice a subtle change in Your attitude: At least You no longer pretend it *IS* a WS-10 and even more a WS-15. I remember some very harsh words from You after my reply to Your claims where You repeatedly pretend the J-20 is already flying with WS-15.
> 
> Anyway ... I'm still very much sceptical about Your theory of a MIX, since this is technical impossible or at last not logical: To add an AL-31FN's nozzle on a WS-10 is plain stupid esp. if the WS-10 is itself an efficiently working engine. That does not exclude that this latest specialised AL-31FN might use certain *WS-10 technology,* but it is still an AL-31FN.
> 
> IMO the most likely version which would also explain these reports about an indigenous engine is, hat it is plain and simple a special custom-tailored version jointly-developed and esp. China-funded version, that is PR-wise speaking a "Chinese" engine, but strictly spoken it s a development of the AL-31FN of some sort.
> 
> Deino


From Facebook? 



Deino said:


> @Grandy
> 
> We had this discussion here already "ad nauseum" and there are actually two parties here: The one side which is jumping high o the bandwagon that the J-20 uses a WS-10, or already WS-15 or - IMO the most unlikely version - a hybrid engine using the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle.
> 
> For the other side is confirmed that it is an AL-31N since all evidence and external details confirm this: it looks like this engine, Saturn and CAC have a long established relationship and latest reports confirm this too.
> 
> If You are interested, this might be worth a read for You:
> https://www.facebook.com/permalink....908984705&id=611223845748378&substory_index=0
> 
> Bu please take Your time and read a bit the arguments of both sides and come to Your own conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I'm glad to notice a subtle change in Your attitude: At least You no longer pretend it *IS* a WS-10 and even more a WS-15. I remember some very harsh words from You after my reply to Your claims where You repeatedly pretend the J-20 is already flying with WS-15.
> 
> Anyway ... I'm still very much sceptical about Your theory of a MIX, since this is technical impossible or at last not logical: To add an AL-31FN's nozzle on a WS-10 is plain stupid esp. if the WS-10 is itself an efficiently working engine. That does not exclude that this latest specialised AL-31FN might use certain *WS-10 technology,* but it is still an AL-31FN.
> 
> IMO the most likely version which would also explain these reports about an indigenous engine is, hat it is plain and simple a special custom-tailored version jointly-developed and esp. China-funded version, that is PR-wise speaking a "Chinese" engine, but strictly spoken it s a development of the AL-31FN of some sort.
> 
> Deino


It doesn't matter it's has AL-31F or whatever. Most importantly is from even a single screw on it is 100% made in China. And we can do whatever we want.

Let me make a prediction. If Type001A carrier commission and carry the combat ready J-15A with WS-10A engine all install in it. I can deduct something.

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## Han Patriot

Beast said:


> From Facebook?
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter it's has AL-31F or whatever. Most importantly is from even a single screw on it is 100% made in China. And we can do whatever we want.
> 
> Let me make a prediction. If Type001A carrier commission and carry the combat ready J-15A with WS-10A engine all install in it. I can deduct something.


Until that day, I will still say we are behind. Until we have our own marine propulsion be it electric or gas, until we have our own aero engine, we are still behind. And there is nothing wrong with that, just keep quiet and observe and monitor. No need to claim anything. China is famous for being quiet and then booom suddenly suprise the shit out of the world.

I remember the day Sunway Taihulight was unveiled, not a single sound and suddenly booom, when the J20 was unveiled, nobody knew anything about it, the Indies were even saying it's fake and it's photoshopped.

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## Beast

Goodbye! WS-10 chief designer, Zhang Erhe.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/china/2016-11-17/doc-ifxxwrwk1302959.shtml

*太行发动机总设计师张恩和告别仪式在沈阳举行*
2016年11月17日 11:07 新浪军事 微博







张恩和（资料图）



　国产“太行”发动机
　　【“太行”发动机总设计师张恩和同志告别仪式在沈阳举行】15日，张恩和同志告别仪式在沈阳举行。回龙岗革命公墓的殡仪馆内挽联高悬，气氛庄严肃穆，人们怀着极其沉痛的心情，深切悼念中国共产党党员、中国航空发动机知名专家、“太行”发动机总设计师、中国航发动力所原副所长张恩和同志。







*https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/涡扇-10*

*衍生型[编辑]*
根据上市公司网上公开资料显示，截至2009年底，该发动机共衍生出A、B、C、D、G、H六种型号，[3]其中G、H兩型的生产日期在该报告发表之后。

根据申银万国的报告，各型号的参数如下：

*型号* *推力* *生产日期*
WS-10A 132kN 2005年
WS-10B 135kN 2008年
WS-10C 100kN 2008年
WS-10D 120kN 2008年（定型）
WS-10G 155kN 2009年
WS-10H 125kN 2010-2012年

Many version of WS-10 engines according to AVIC webpage release press.

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## WarFariX

@Beast is he also sacked? ws10 chief designer?


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Beast is he also sacked? ws10 chief designer?



You did not read the news ?? He passed a way ... so R.I.P.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> You did not read the news ?? He passed a way ... so R.I.P.


ohh sad

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## grey boy 2

According to "Jane's defense weekly" Chinese and Ukrainian to set up a join venture Engines factory in Chongqing 
Which will be including D-136, MS-500V and TV3-117VMA-SBM1V helicopter turboshaft engine, AI-450S general aviation aircraft engine, D436-148FM and D -18T high bypass ratio turbofan engine, D-27 counter-rotating turboprop engine, and AI-222 series military jet engines, even the MS-400 engine for cruise missile is included 
英国《简氏防务周刊》网7日报道称，2016年中国航展上传来消息，马达西奇公司根据本年与中国企业签订一项成立合资公司的协议，授权在中国生产公司旗下多款航空发动机，这一系列发动机将在重庆市新建厂房内进行组装，其中包括D-136、MS-500V和TV3-117VMA-SBM1V直升机用涡轴发动机，AI-450S通用航空飞机发动机，D436-148FM和D-18T高涵道比涡轮风扇发动机，D-27对转涡轮螺旋桨发动机，以及AI-222系列军用喷气发动机。环球网报道指，就连巡航导弹搭载的MS-400涡扇引擎也在“国产”发动机之列。

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## Aasimkhan

I have heard WS13E will be capable of super cruise, is it correct?


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## WarFariX

Aasimkhan said:


> I have heard WS13E will be capable of super cruise, is it correct?


supercruise ability is co related with jet design also but ws13e +fc31v2 will be designated as super cruise


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## grey boy 2

Engine of Type 99A and VT-4 MBT with speed capability of reaching 32km in 6 seconds (中国99A和VT4坦克动力包：6秒加速至32公里)
99A和VT4坦克分别装备1500马力和1300马力的CH1000传动装置。

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## -------

grey boy 2 said:


> Engine of Type 99A and VT-4 MBT with speed capability of reaching 32km in 6 seconds (中国99A和VT4坦克动力包：6秒加速至32公里)
> 99A和VT4坦克分别装备1500马力和1300马力的CH1000传动装置。



Is this the complete power pack with the transmission ?
Also 0-32 kmh in 6 seconds seems to be the norm for Western tanks.


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## Hassan Guy

Its very possible that we will see Pakistan licence building the WS-13 engines locally and independently in the future.


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## Deino

Hassan Guy said:


> Its very possible that we will see Pakistan licence building the WS-13 engines locally and independently in the future.




Why do You think ? IMO more than unlikely ...


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## Hassan Guy

Deino said:


> Why do You think ? IMO more than unlikely ...


Built under licence of course.


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## Deino

IMO still unlikely. The number of required WS-13 - esp. if the PLA will not acquire the FC-31 - will be too small to establish a separate facility in Pakistan.


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## Hassan Guy

Deino said:


> IMO still unlikely. The number of required WS-13 - esp. if the PLA will not acquire the FC-31 - will be too small to establish a separate facility in Pakistan.


Well that depends, especially if China is able to bag foreign orders for the J-31.


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## royalharris

Hassan Guy said:


> Its very possible that we will see Pakistan licence building the WS-13 engines locally and independently in the future.


psycholagny hurt yourself


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## Hassan Guy

royalharris said:


> psycholagny hurt yourself


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## Ultima Thule

Bobby said:


> LCA is Junk Fighter......but you got greatest plane in the world...thats why I asked ....


we don't say that JF-17 is world greatest fighter, you guys say that your* LEAST CAPABLE FIGHTER is 100 generation out of this universe fighter*


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## grey boy 2

*Taihang engines do not pose safety hazard: experts*
(People's Daily Online) 16:04, November 24, 2016




*Chinese experts have denounced speculation by foreign media that the country’s best warplane engine may pose safety risks.*

*“Judging by the performance and application of the WS-10A Taihang engine, it’s unlikely that potential hazards such as explosions will occur during flight. If such safety loopholes do exist, the government will definitely recall the engines without risking the lives of pilots,”* a military expert from the National University of Defense Technology told Science and Technology Daily in an interview.

*The expert, Wang Qun, made his remarks after a Russian news website accused the WS-10A Taihang engine of being a copy of Russia’s AL-31F. According to the report, China tried to raise the engine’s operating temperature to 50 degrees Celsius, but due to its inability to produce complex single-crystal blades, the engine could explode at any time during flight.*

“There is a moon-to-earth distance between Taihang and the AL-31F,” read the report. Wang, however, disagreed.

*“It’s true that China’s engine technologies lag behind those of its Western counterparts, but it’s not objective to belittle Taihang’s performance. Thaihang’s disadvantages lie in its lifespan, reliability and stability; otherwise, the gap between Taihang and more advanced engines is not that big,”* said Wang.

*“Conservatively speaking, China reached the level of developed countries in the '90s, as far as engine manufacturing goes. The country has already made great achievements, and will soon catch up to its Western counterparts,” *Wang added.

*First launched in 2005, Taihang engines have been deployed by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force in five air force regiments. Various fighter jets are also equipped with the engine, including the J-11B and J-15 carrier-based fighter jets. So far, there have been no crashes due to engine failure among fighter jets equipped with Taihang engines. *
*http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1124/c90000-9146576.html*

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## Nan Yang

*China powers up military jet engine tech to wean itself off Russian imports*

Advances in engine design have led to the launch of the J-11D, a home-grown version of the Su-35


PUBLISHED : Monday, 12 December, 2016, 9:04am
UPDATED : Monday, 12 December, 2016, 9:04am




China is ready to launch its new J-11D fighter after it failed to acquire Russian engines on schedule and was forced to develop its own technology, military observers said.

The progress included advances in home-grown turbofan technology and radar systems, and showed that Beijing was no longer reliant on Russian engines for its new generation of fighters, analysts said.

After a decade of negotiations, China and Russia inked a deal for 24 Su-35 aircraft last year.





China had hoped the deal would include delivery of an extra 48 117S engines, that it could use in its newer aircraft like the J-20.

But Russian red tape forced China to upgrade the Su-27s it already had and develop its own variant of the Su-35, the J-11D. The J-11D, built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, made its maiden flight on April 29 last year.

Some of the most noticeable improvements are in the radar system, the addition of a computer-controlled antenna that can point in different directions without moving, and greater use of composites and stealth coatings in the fuselage to cut weight. The maiden flight also revealed that the J-11D is powered by a WS-10 engine, a turbofan design originally developed by a subsidiary of Chinese aerospace giant Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic), SAC’s parent company.



In its annual report in July, Avic said it built more than 400 WS-10 engines last year, suggesting the J-10 and J-11 fighters no longer needed Russian engines.

Andrei Chang, founder of the Canada-based _Kanwa Defence Review,_ said Avic’s newly established Aeroengine Corporation of China had centralised resources for engine development, working as an umbrella for 24 units and about 10,000 employees.

“The outside world had underestimated the pace of China’s engine development. In fact, China has put quite a lot [of resources] into engine development over the past two or three years,” Chang said.

China has long struggled to build its own aircraft engines, and has made boosting its strength in this area a priority.
Industry observers said Beijing spent about 150 billion yuan (HK$168 billion) to come up with its own fighter engines in the 2010-2015 five-year plan.

“China once needed to install a great number of [Russian] AL31F engines on its J-15 and J-11B fighters,” Chang said.

But in the future, it was unlikely to use the more advanced Russian 117S engines for its J-11D or J-20 fighters, he said. The 117S engine is used to power the Su-35.

The Su-35 is powered by two turbofan engines, giving it a range of about 3,500km on internal fuel, or 4,500km with two external fuel tanks, making it Russia’s most advanced multi-role fighter.

Macau-based military observer Antony Wong Dong said the J-11D project would help Shenyang Aircraft enter into “virtuous competition” with rival Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), another Avic offshoot that developed the J-9, J-10, J-20 and other fighters.

“The central government doesn’t want to let CAC dominate China’s aviation manufacturing, just like the healthy competition between Boeing and Lockheed Martin in the United States,” Wong said.

Besides the J-11 series, SAC also developed the J-15 – designed for China’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning – and the J-16 and J-31 fighters.

China could also be working on a more advanced engine. The WS-10 debuted at last month’s air show in Zhuhai, and the public outing suggests that the engine is not a cutting-edge design.

A staff member from Aeroengine would not comment on its plans for the engines that would power the J-15 and the J-20 stealth jets.
 
Source
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/arti...y-jet-engine-tech-wean-itself-russian-imports


*
*

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## Han Patriot

Nan Yang said:


> *China powers up military jet engine tech to wean itself off Russian imports*
> 
> Source
> http://www.scmp.com/news/china/arti...y-jet-engine-tech-wean-itself-russian-imports


I am pretty sure the newer engine imports from Russia are spares....Chinese are not so stupid to be dependent on Russian engines. 400+ WS-10 are already in service....I suspect they want to increase the capability and reliability of the engines comparable to Western standards. Making an aeroengines is not an issue but making a reliable engine up to Western standards is the real deal.

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## Cornered Tiger

Good to see China progressing at a pace never seen before. Chinese Human Resource power is amazing, they are taking every thing as a challenge and coming up with new skills & technologies. Good going.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Han Patriot said:


> I am pretty sure the newer engine imports from Russia are spares....Chinese are not so stupid to be dependent on Russian engines. 400+ WS-10 are already in service....I suspect they want to increase the capability and reliability of the engines comparable to Western standards. Making an aeroengines is not an issue but making a reliable engine up to Western standards is the real deal.



Try 600+ WS-10 class engines.

http://junshi.xilu.com/wypl/20160505/1000010000942870.html

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## GodToons

Good to see a country so serious on having independent engine technology. Hope you get good and reliable engine.

All the best

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## Deino

*WHY again a new THREAD ??????*

*Come on guys.....*

Deino


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## grey boy 2

Finally better late than never, New "WZ-16 turboshaft engine" will be install on Z-15 first flight

另外根据东安在微讯发表的消息，AC352首飞的发动机就是WZ16。
WZ16发动机即将随AC352直升机实现首飞，欢迎关注“东安微讯”了解本型号的最新进展。
*WZ16 engine is about to embark on its first flight with AC352 helicopter. Welcome to follow our WeChat public number “dongan120” for the updated status of WZ16 engine.








*

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## aliaselin



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## Han Patriot

Not sure if anyone saw this before, it's documentary on Chinese Heavy Industry. You can see the turbine blade manufacturing and technology progression here. From it, we can find out that WTB supplies to a major Japanese powerplant turbine maker and supplies 50% of those turbine blades. 

Most interesting, go to 29:42, you can see a box with the word BHEL(YINDU) on it. LOL. So much for indigenous manufacturer eh?

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## Asoka

I had been greatly puzzled by why so many PDF members insisted that the WS-15 engine has not been tested on J-20, and that it has running with either WS-10X or AL-31FN.

I can explain this away by thinking that non-Chinese members are simply want to knock down China's achievement, but what about Chinese members's reluctance to accept WS-15 has been tested on J-20?

The secrecy surrounding WS-15's progress has a lot to do with it, but that's not all.

A more rational explanation could be that many PDF members are not familiar with "*The Role of Computational Fluid Dynamics Analysis in Engine Design". *That is using the power of supercomputer to help with engine design.

Since 2000, China has been making great stride in Supercomputer, "With over 93 petaflops of processing power, the Sunway TaihuLight is far and away the most powerful supercomputer in the world, absolutely smashing its nearest competitor, the Tianhe-2 (another Chinese Supercomputer), which is humming away on a still-not-to-be-scoffed-at 34 petaflops."

And now US and China is tied for 171 systems each within Top500 list outlines the world's most powerful supercomputers.

The use of Supercomputers can greatly simplify the engine design process by simulate the entire engine within the computer, and model the complex airflow within it. A process that takes years to understand could now be simulated could now be modeled with only several hours of computation.

You can be sure that WS-15 engineers has spent thousands of hours in Supercomputer simulation before any parts was built. This is not an option anymore. It's a must if you want a powerful engine that pushes the limit of available materials, engine design and manufacturing process. And the insights gained and time saved by CFD is calculable.

Here is what we know about WS-15:

The WS-15 engine core pre-study was initiated in 1990 with the help of the Russian experts.
In 2000, the engine core was constructed.

15 years later, in 2005, the engine core passed all the performance test in ground bench testing.
In 2006, the WS-15 Engine Project was officially initiated.

Then the stream of official/semi-official news about WS-15 engine project ceased, it went dark.

And around this time, the J-20 design was finalized, and construction began around 2007. In 2009, the Vice Command of PLAAF announced that J-20 will soon make its first flight, and will enter service by 2017-2019.

I believe, by 2010, the first J-20 was fully assembled and first flight was made in the same year. The second J-20, with the same version number 2001, made its first flight in Jan. 11, 2011. This J-20 with the white exhaust nozzle is the WS-15 prototype, IMO.

Based on what I know about CFD, and CAD/CAM (Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing), between 2006 and 2011, IMO, it's entirely possible that Chinese engineers could have assembled a prototype of WS-15, using existing components from WS-15 and AL-31FN, so they could test it in a real setting as soon as possible.

The first WS-15 prototype, of course, would have to be first ground tested, high attitude chamber tested, and a derated WS-15 would be tested on an old plane like J-11. The J-11(
max thrust 120kN-135kN) can not test the full power (180kN) of WS-15, so it must derated or restricted. Only the J-20 designed for WS-15 can test the full thrust of WS-15.

The Engine Core consists of the Compressor, Combustor, and Turbine, but not include the afterburner assembly and exhaust nozzle.






https://www.sharcnet.ca/Software/Ansys/16.2.3/en-us/help/wb_icom/icom_cfd_role.html
"*The Role of CFD Analysis in Engine Design"
*
As described in _Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines_, IC engines involve complex fluid dynamic interactions between air flow, fuel injection, moving geometries, and combustion. Fluid dynamics phenomena like jet formation, wall impingement with swirl and tumble, and turbulence production are critical for high efficiency engine performance and meeting emissions criteria. The design problems that are encountered include port-flow design, combustion chamber shape design, variable valve timing, injection and ignition timing, and design for low or idle speeds.

There are several tools which are used in practice during the design process. These include experimental investigation using test or flow bench setups, 1D codes, analytical models, empirical/historical data, and finally, computational fluid dynamics (CFD). Of these, CFD has the potential for providing detailed and useful information and insights that can be fed back into the design process. This is because in CFD analysis, the fundamental equations that describe fluid flow are being solved directly on a mesh that describes the 3D geometry, with sub-models for turbulence, fuel injection, chemistry, and combustion. Several techniques and sub-models are used for modeling moving geometry motion and its effect on fluid flow.

Using CFD results, the flow phenomena can be visualized on 3D geometry and analyzed numerically, providing tremendous insight into the complex interactions that occur inside the engine. This allows you to compare different designs and quantify the trade-offs such as soot vs NOx, swirl vs tumble and impact on turbulence production, combustion efficiency vs pollutant formation, which helps determine optimal designs. Hence CFD analysis is used extensively as part of the design process in automotive engineering, power generation, and transportation. With the rise of modern and inexpensive computing power and 3D CAD systems, it has become much easier for analysts to perform CFD analysis. In increasing order of complexity, the CFD analyses performed can be classified into

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## messiach

WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.



Asok said:


> I had been greatly puzzled by why so many PDF members insisted that the WS-15 engine has not been tested on J-20, and that it has running with either WS-10X or AL-31FN.
> 
> I can explain this away by thinking that non-Chinese members are simply want to knock down China's achievement, but what about Chinese members's reluctance to accept WS-15 has been tested on J-20?
> 
> The secrecy surrounding WS-15's progress has a lot to do with it, but that's not all.
> 
> A more rational explanation could be that many PDF members are not familiar with "*The Role of Computational Fluid Dynamics Analysis in Engine Design". *That is using the power of supercomputer to help with engine design.
> 
> Since 2000, China has been making great stride in Supercomputer, "With over 93 petaflops of processing power, the Sunway TaihuLight is far and away the most powerful supercomputer in the world, absolutely smashing its nearest competitor, the Tianhe-2 (another Chinese Supercomputer), which is humming away on a still-not-to-be-scoffed-at 34 petaflops."
> 
> And now US and China is tied for 171 systems each within Top500 list outlines the world's most powerful supercomputers.
> 
> The use of Supercomputers can greatly simplify the engine design process by simulate the entire engine within the computer, and model the complex airflow within it. A process that takes years to understand could now be simulated could now be modeled with only several hours of computation.
> 
> You can be sure that WS-15 engineers has spent thousands of hours in Supercomputer simulation before any parts was built. This is not an option anymore. It's a must if you want a powerful engine that pushes the limit of available materials, engine design and manufacturing process. And the insights gained and time saved by CFD is calculable.
> 
> Here is what we know about WS-15:
> 
> The WS-15 engine core pre-study was initiated in 1990 with the help of the Russian experts.
> In 2000, the engine core was constructed.
> 
> 15 years later, in 2005, the engine core passed all the performance test in ground bench testing.
> In 2006, the WS-15 Engine Project was officially initiated.
> 
> Then the stream of official/semi-official news about WS-15 engine project ceased, it went dark.
> 
> And around this time, the J-20 design was finalized, and construction began around 2007. In 2009, the Vice Command of PLAAF announced that J-20 will soon make its first flight, and will enter service by 2017-2019.
> 
> I believe, by 2010, the first J-20 was fully assembled and first flight was made in the same year. The second J-20, with the same version number 2001, made its first flight in Jan. 11, 2011. This J-20 with the white exhaust nozzle is the WS-15 prototype, IMO.
> 
> Based on what I know about CFD, and CAD/CAM (Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing), between 2006 and 2011, IMO, it's entirely possible that Chinese engineers could have assembled a prototype of WS-15, using existing components from WS-15 and AL-31FN, so they could test it in a real setting as soon as possible.
> 
> The first WS-15 prototype, of course, would have to be first ground tested, high attitude chamber tested, and a derated WS-15 would be tested on an old plane like J-11. The J-11(
> max thrust 120kN-135kN) can not test the full power (180kN) of WS-15, so it must derated or restricted. Only the J-20 designed for WS-15 can test the full thrust of WS-15.
> 
> The Engine Core consists of the Compressor, Combustor, and Turbine, but not include the afterburner assembly and exhaust nozzle.
> 
> View attachment 363389
> 
> 
> https://www.sharcnet.ca/Software/Ansys/16.2.3/en-us/help/wb_icom/icom_cfd_role.html
> "*The Role of CFD Analysis in Engine Design"
> *
> As described in _Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines_, IC engines involve complex fluid dynamic interactions between air flow, fuel injection, moving geometries, and combustion. Fluid dynamics phenomena like jet formation, wall impingement with swirl and tumble, and turbulence production are critical for high efficiency engine performance and meeting emissions criteria. The design problems that are encountered include port-flow design, combustion chamber shape design, variable valve timing, injection and ignition timing, and design for low or idle speeds.
> 
> There are several tools which are used in practice during the design process. These include experimental investigation using test or flow bench setups, 1D codes, analytical models, empirical/historical data, and finally, computational fluid dynamics (CFD). Of these, CFD has the potential for providing detailed and useful information and insights that can be fed back into the design process. This is because in CFD analysis, the fundamental equations that describe fluid flow are being solved directly on a mesh that describes the 3D geometry, with sub-models for turbulence, fuel injection, chemistry, and combustion. Several techniques and sub-models are used for modeling moving geometry motion and its effect on fluid flow.
> 
> Using CFD results, the flow phenomena can be visualized on 3D geometry and analyzed numerically, providing tremendous insight into the complex interactions that occur inside the engine. This allows you to compare different designs and quantify the trade-offs such as soot vs NOx, swirl vs tumble and impact on turbulence production, combustion efficiency vs pollutant formation, which helps determine optimal designs. Hence CFD analysis is used extensively as part of the design process in automotive engineering, power generation, and transportation. With the rise of modern and inexpensive computing power and 3D CAD systems, it has become much easier for analysts to perform CFD analysis. In increasing order of complexity, the CFD analyses performed can be classified into

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## Asoka

messiach said:


> WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.



Where is your source of information? Thanks.



Beast said:


> Hybrid home grown engine. (Mix of AL-31F and WS-10 technology)
> 
> He mention it not only once but twice and stress on the term 国产. I dare to bet PLAAF chief might have told him something juicy which we commoner will not know regarding J-20 development. Yin Zhuo is a high ranking CPC board member plus ex rear admiral rank. His level to classify data will be much higher than rest.
> 
> The rest of his speech during the interview is also consistent with what many military watcher conclude that WS-15 engine has not install on J-20 but he claim 'soon'. Without WS-15, PLAAF military jet engine will still be a generation behind USAF. He commented.



Neither WS-10X or AL-31FN can provide enough thrust for J-20 to do Supersonic Cruise. So it can not be either one of them.

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## messiach

MEng, specialise in High thrust Turbine Axels. Read profile.


Asok said:


> Where is your source of information? Thanks.

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## GiantPanda

Asok said:


> Neither WS-10X or AL-31FN can provide enough thrust for J-20 to do Supersonic Cruise. So it can not be either one of them.




There is nothing official that states that the current J-20s can supercruise yet.

WS-15 will come but let's not get ahead of ourselves on the J-20. When it is installed it should be different enough from a AL-31 that we can easily tell the difference without guessing. The petals on all engines are distinctive from each other. Especially in the case of the WS-15 which is a generation later.

I would be sorely dissapointed if the WS-15 ends up with an end that looks like the AL-31 which in turn brings the question whether the core is the same as the AL-31 as well. No, the WS-10's petals are highly distinctive from the AL-31 and so will the WS-15's.

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## Ultima Thule

messiach said:


> WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.


But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks


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## ChineseTiger1986

pakistanipower said:


> But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks



The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.

I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.

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## Deino

Please don't take this as an offence, ... but You know what You are talking about ?
You have first hand access to this top-secret data and information on the WS-15's development ??

I mean, if YES, then fine but wouldn't this then be some sort of betrayal or the telling of secrets ?

But if not ... so You are more or less guessing in the same way like so many others here ???

Again, I do not want to offend You, but since You tell she (I thought HE ?) does not know what he speaks then why are You so sure ?

Deino

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## messiach

PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15. 


pakistanipower said:


> But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks



PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperatures above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.
> 
> Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.
> 
> I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> Please don't take this as an offence, ... but You know what You are talking about ?
> You have first hand access to this top-secret data and information on the WS-15's development ??
> 
> I mean, if YES, then fine but wouldn't this then be some sort of betrayal or the telling of secrets ?
> 
> But if not ... so You are more or less guessing in the same way like so many others here ???
> 
> Again, I do not want to offend You, but since You tell she (I thought HE ?) does not know what he speaks then why are You so sure ?
> 
> Deino



Because we speak Chinese, while you guys don't.

The primary information about the WS-15 is in Chinese, not in English or German.

The WS-15 has completed its ground test on August 21st 2015, it is well documented among the Chinese speaking medias in the Mainland China.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

messiach said:


> PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.
> 
> 
> PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperatures above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.



Kind madam,

Firstly, many thanks for your valuable insights and contributions...please, do not be offended by some impolite posts..especially from your own countryman...at least he carries your flags...

Please, continue with your views and contributions. 

Some of us highly value your professional insights. Educational!

If some Chinese friends do not agree with your insights...one expects them to respectfully disagree and not show unnecssary brovado like the indians... after all Confucians morality dictates so... now the shaff from hay will be distinguished. Let us see.

Regards,

SPF

@Shotgunner51


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## Ultima Thule

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Deino chooses to believe some two lines misinformation, yet refuse to accept any reasonable analysis.
> 
> Anyway, who cares what he chooses to believe, his preference won't have any effect on the outcome of the WS-15.
> 
> Now, all Chinese military pundits seem to agree that the current J-20 engine is not the final WS-15, but a fourth gen turbofan engine that got nurtured with the technology from the WS-15.


Because their western *EGO* deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Deino chooses to believe some two lines misinformation, yet refuse to accept any reasonable analysis.
> 
> Anyway, who cares what he chooses to believe, his preference won't have any effect on the outcome of the WS-15.
> 
> Now, all Chinese military pundits seem to agree that the current J-20 engine is not the final WS-15, but a fourth gen turbofan engine that got nurtured with the technology from the WS-15.



Dear friend,

Firstly, we all like to know what is going on with our favourite bird...

Virtue is to keep on going and let the facts...speak. Not important this convincing business at all.

Keep us posted about developments...also my other favourite...DDG055.

You know that I value your posts...

Any news on the J20 excercise with the rest of the birds...did it smashed them completely?

Thanks,

SPF

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## ChineseTiger1986

pakistanipower said:


> Because their western *EGO* deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir



Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.











PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.

Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.

How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?

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## Asoka

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.
> 
> Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.
> 
> How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?
> 
> View attachment 363654
> 
> 
> View attachment 363655




Yup, we can see that on the China Airshow, J-20 performed, without the afterburner, a slow vertical climb that did not slow down at the top. This shows the Dry Trust to Weight Ratio of the engine to the plane is greater than 1.

If the empty weight of J-20 is greater than F-22's 19.6 tons, plus 3 tons of fuel, then its near 23 tons.

If J-20 is using WS-10 which has reach 140kN thrust, Dry Thrust is around 60% of that, which is 85kN per engine. Double than is 170kN or 17.3 tons.

17.3 tons is no where near the 23 tons lift J-20 slowly and vertically.

F-22 has 156kN Max thrust (93kN Dry Thrust) per engine, or 19 ton total dry Thrust.

This is not enough to lift the 23 tons weight (19.6 + 3 tons of fuels) of F-22, vertically without afterburner.
That's why we are seeing the F-22 need to turn on the Afterburner on almost the whole demo.

@Deino ignored this fact by just insisting the demo of J-20 is not that impressive and it doesn't mean anything.

Now, if J-20 is using WS-15 and its maximum thrust is 180kN as stated in the internet, then its dry thrust is (180kn x 0.6 x 2 = 216kN or 22 Ton)

This is just enough to lift vertically the empty weight, 22 tons, of J-20 without afterburner (we supposed is 22 ton, the same as F-22 plus 2 tons more, since its body is 3 meters longer), not including 3-4 tons of fuel needed to fly from a nearby airport to the demo.

Now, we suppose the empty weight of J-20 is 22 tons plus 4 tons of fuels for the demo, then the Dry Thrust required to lift it vertically is 26 tons, or 255kN or 127.5kN per engine. (127kN is only 13kN less than the maximum thrust 140kN of WS-10) To have 127.5kN of dry thrust per engine, the maximum thrust of the engine must be around a whoopping 212kN (60% of 204kN is 127.2kN)

Coincidentally, 212kN is close to the YAK-141's R79-v300 engine's maximum thrust of 206kN.

China has purchased the YAK-141's R79-v300 engine technology, including all the technical blueprints and documents, from Russia in the 1990's.

Of course, my figures are guess-estimate based on the estimate empty weight of J-20, 22 Tons and plus 4 tons of fuels needed for the demo. I would say 4 tons of fuel, or 1/3 of a full tank, is a conservative figures.

If my figure of J-20's empty weight is anywhere close to the truth, the Maximum thrust of WS-15 is closer to +++ 212kN +++, not 180kN as advertised.

Get that number into your head, folks. WS-15's Maximum Thrust is north of 212kN.

No wonder the Chinese government want to keep the mighty WS-15 under tight wrap. It's power is too shocking for the world to digest.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Su-35's empty weight is 18 tons, plus 4 tons of fuel for the demo then its 22 tons. It's 117S or AL-41F's maximum thrust is 180kN, or total thrust is 360kN, and total Dry Thrust is 216kN, or 22 tons. It's just enough to lift it vertically without afterburner.

This video shows it that is is true. No afterburner is needed. It could hang in mid air and do vertical climb slowly all without the use of afterburner.






The Russian T50 fighter (empty weight 18 tons, using AL-41F engine, same as Su-35) doing spectacular demo, without the use of afterburner.






So in conclusion, there is no doubt in my mind, that the maximum power of WS-15 is much greater than 180kN as advertised, north of 212kN is much more likely.

Eat your heart out, you China bashers. China can't produce a powerful and reliable engine, you say.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The afterburner thrust of the 117S is around 142kN.

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## Asoka

pakistanipower said:


> Because their western *EGO* deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir



And they will not admit WS-15 is much more powerful than they could imagine. Perhaps this is what they fear the most. If China is strong, they will not dare to push China anymore.

Here is the user Richard Santos on SinoDefenseForum's comment.

"Given the fact that engine development is clearly the weakest link in China's fighter program, and it is not a stretch to say at least major parts of current Chinese engine technology is still below the level at which the F-119 and F-120 engines for the f-22 and yf-23 were designed, "

They still think China is living in the 90's.

And Pakistan being China's loyal friend and brother will be benefited from more massive investments from China, simply because the international environment will be more stable.

What Pakistan needed the most is more investments that is in the range of billions and lasts for decades. You will not get it from the West. Pakistan don't need aids or handouts from the West. Pakistanis are not beggars. No nation has ever prosper from begging.

They could take care of themselves if massive investment into the infrastructures, schools, roads, and industries are made.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The afterburner thrust of the 117S is around 142kN.



You mean the non-afterburner thrust of 117S is 142kN? The maximum thrust of WS-10 is already 140kN. it got to be much higher. I read it somewhere its 180kN.

A maximum thrust of 140kN will not be enough to lift Su-35 vertically with some fuel.

F-22's F119 engine has reportedly 156kN max thrust, and it can not lift it vertically w/o afterburner. So 117S got to have higher maximum thrust.

This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.

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## Asoka

messiach said:


> MEng, specialise in High thrust Turbine Axels. Read profile.



No one found by that name MEng.

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## samsara

Asok said:


> No one found by that name MEng.





messiach said:


> MEng, specialise in High thrust Turbine Axels. Read profile.


He/she said that his/her MEng (education background) should be self-obvious.

And if there's any further question, his/her paragraph of below should explain thing...


messiach said:


> PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.


*though I dunno what is the relationship between his/her statement with the China's engine development...
*
ChineseTiger1986 did refute messiach's weird comments. Time to move on and ignore any ignorant poster.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.
> 
> Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.
> 
> I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Because we speak Chinese, while you guys don't.
> 
> The primary information about the WS-15 is in Chinese, not in English or German.
> 
> The WS-15 has completed its ground test on August 21st 2015, it is well documented among the Chinese speaking medias in the Mainland China.



Btw, *thank you Asok* for your lengthy, diligent, persuasive and persistent expositions of the engine things, submitted with some relevant info... cool for reading interests though some of the truths may just find their answers long in the future, or even possibly never see the light due to some secrecy practices in military realm  however, as long as the expositions are mainly rational and scientific, they are of good reading interests  cheers!

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## Asoka

samsara said:


> He/she said that his/her MEng (education background) should be self-obvious.
> 
> And if there's any further question, his/her paragraph of below should explain thing...
> 
> *though I dunno what is the relationship between his/her statement with the China's engine development...
> *
> ChineseTiger1986 did refute messiach's weird comments. Time to move on and ignore any ignorant poster.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, *thank you Asok* for your lengthy, diligent, persuasive and persistent expositions of the engine things, submitted with some relevant info... cool for reading interests though some of the truths may just find their answers long in the future, or even possibly never see the light due to some secrecy practices in military realm  however, as long as the expositions are mainly rational and scientific, they are of good reading interests  cheers!



Thanks Samsara! Your support is greatly appreciated. 

Dealing with the likes of Deino, who keep comparing nozzle petals, is a real pain to handle. That don't determine anything conclusively since engine exhaust nozzles could look similar without affecting the working of the engine. At least there is no natural laws that prohibit two different engine sharing the same nozzle petals look.

The logic is pretty simple. To vertically lift up a plane slowly like a VTOL plane, it requires thrust to weight ratio > 1. And if we don't see the tell-tale sign of a long hot flame shooting out of the nozzle, then no afterburner was used. Only the military power was used, which is around 60% of the maximum thrust. And If we got a ball park figure of the plane's empty weight, from there, we could figure out the plane's minimum Dry Thrust needed to do the vertical lifting.

This is like a high school algebra problem.

The YAK-141, whose engine _*R-79V-300*_, the WS-15 borrowed heavily from, is a very powerful engine with rating of 206kN. This is because its *Max. takeoff weight is* 19,500 kg or 19.5 ton. So it requires a engine powerful enough to lift it vertically up into the air.

The *R-79V-300, *has a dry thrust of 108kN or 11 tons or 22 tons totals. It's enough to lift YAK-141 vertically with just dry thrust.

And why using only Dry Thrust is important for YAK-141, because it will be used on a Aircraft Carrier. Using Afterburner with its nozzle turned down to face the deck will burn a hole through steel deck or at least damage it.

Anyone don't believe me? Just look at the board on US Carrier when it launch an airplane. The airplane is back against a board, and the board is cool with water pipes lined inside the board, otherwise the board will melt.






US and British carriers will have this problem if the VSTOL version of F-35 was used. Instead the F-35C carrier-based Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) variant will be used.

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## Deino

@Asok ....


Please ... You are making fun of others but are quoting Wiki !!! Isn't this a joke at all ??

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> @Asok ....
> 
> 
> Please ... You are making fun of others but are quoting Wiki !!! Isn't this a joke at all ??



Yes, I am making fun of the gang of fanboys who love to compare engine nozzle petals. The Chinese called them 菊花党, or slang for BUTT GANG. 

There are quite a few of them in various Chinese forums.

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## Deino

Asok said:


> Yes, I am making fun of the gang who love to compare engine nozzle petals. The Chinese called them 菊花党, or slang for BUTT GANG.
> 
> There are quite a few of them in various Chinese forums.



So has every group of fan-boys a special name for the other opposing group of fan-boys !?? Funny, isn't it ?

But in fact we are all more or less well informed, more or less capable of logical thinking, more or less able to read ... and more or less able to understand, more or less blinded by our own perception ... but in the end we are all more or less fishing in the same muddy waters?

Let's have some more fun?
Deino

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> So has every group of fan-boys a special name for the other opposing group of fan-boys !?? Funny, isn't it ?
> 
> But in fact we are all more or less well informed, more or less capable of logical thinking, more or less able to read ... and more or less able to understand, more or less blinded by our own perception ... but in the end we are all more or less fishing in the same muddy waters?
> 
> Let's have some more fun?
> Deino




We are here to entertain each other by sharing our thoughts. That is true. And thanks for being a great moderator. I don't always agree with your opinion, but you are always not slow to slap someone's wrist if he is out of line. I appreciate your time and effort for being our moderator, to keep a bunch of outspoken fanboys inline, Dieno.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Asok said:


> You mean the non-afterburner thrust of 117S is 142kN? The maximum thrust of WS-10 is already 140kN. it got to be much higher. I read it somewhere its 180kN.
> 
> A maximum thrust of 140kN will not be enough to lift Su-35 vertically with some fuel.
> 
> F-22's F119 engine has reportedly 156kN max thrust, and it can not lift it vertically w/o afterburner. So 117S got to have higher maximum thrust.
> 
> This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.



The 117S is 142kN afterburner, and the 117 is 145kN afterburner. These engines are not superior to the F119.

You can see that the Su-35 cannot climb at 90 degree vertically like the J-20 and F-22, and the T-50 just used the afterburner for the sharp turn as well.

From 1:28, the F-22 did perform a 90 degree vertical climbing comparable to that of the J-20, but the only difference is that F-22 did it with afterburner, while the J-20 did it without the afterburner.

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## Deino

Come on ... each modern fighter can climb vertically. the question is only for how long.

I really don't know why You again and again bring up this video. It shows the J-20 climbing ... YES, but since the one who took these images is also moving You cannot disclose how long and even more since the J-20 is so small if the AB is not engaged during this climb.
In fact - and I know I will get my bashings for that again - it is nothing spectacular, simply lame even more to admit.

Deino


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## ChineseTiger1986

The vertical climbing of the F-15 looks extremely weak in comparison.







The Mig-29 did a good job, but it used its full afterburner for a such light aircraft.







The J-20 did it like a park walk without afterburner.

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> ... without afterburner.




And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !


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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !



The F-22 crazy climbing footage is also small, but you can still see something like this.







J-20: without two shock diamonds = without afterburner on both engines

F-22: with two shock diamonds = with afterburner on both engines

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> Come on ... each modern fighter can climb vertically. the question is only for how long.
> 
> I really don't know why You again and again bring up this video. It shows the J-20 climbing ... YES, but since the one who took these images is also moving You cannot disclose how long and even more since the J-20 is so small if the AB is not engaged during this climb.
> In fact - and I know I will get my bashings for that again - it is nothing spectacular, simply lame even more to admit.
> 
> Deino



You still don't understanding the significance of start climbing vertically at slow speed, without slowing down at the top, and not using afterburner to do that.

It shows the Dry Thrust to Weight Ratio is > 1. That is the Dry Thrust itself is greater than the weight of the aircraft.

"Underpowered", it is not. J-20 using WS-10, it is not.

"it is nothing spectacular" To you, it isn't.

An Olympic powerlifter usually makes an EXPLOSIVE jerk to lift the heavy barbell over his head.

If someone is able to lift the same weight SLOWLY overhead his from the ground.

Who has more strength?



Deino said:


> And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !



There are many J-20 video clips on youtube. They are ALL showing J-20 don't need to turn on the afterburner to make those agile turns and moves.

Able to NOT using the Afterburner is not the same as MUST using the afterburners to make same moves. It means a world of difference in Dry Thrust.



Deino said:


> And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !



"far from spectacular" Then look at other youtube videos. NO AB were ever used. From my experience.

You haven't grasped the significance of climbing vertically w/o AB for a large aircraft means. It means J-20's engine has a freaking large thrust, larger than F-22's, larger than T50's. "Underpowered", it is NOT. Using WS-10, or AL-41F, it is NOT.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The F-22 crazy climbing footage is also small, but you can still see something like this.
> 
> View attachment 364208
> 
> 
> J-20: without two shock diamonds = without afterburner on both engines
> 
> F-22: with two shock diamonds = with afterburner on both engines



The point we need to zero in is whether a plane need to use AB to do the similar moves or not. If it is spectacular but need to turned on AB to do that, the plane could only do that for a few minutes before the engine overheat or run out fuel.

It also leaves a very distinctive heat signature with very hot and very exhaust flame shooting out of the nozzle, leaving the plane very easy to spot, very far away. Not good to dodge a modern heat seeking missile.

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## j20blackdragon

The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.

The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.









Sometimes it is only moderately visible.





Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.





The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> ...The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
> View attachment 364262




You really made my day !

Like I said, these videos were so much blurred and the J-20 much too small to conclude they did NOT use the AB ... in fact - even more to the contrary - as this image clearly shows, they used it and so it is not that far fetched that they used it not only in this split/break but especially in that climb as well.

Deino


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## Asoka

j20blackdragon said:


> The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.
> 
> The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is only moderately visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
> View attachment 364262



The first couple pictures are Russian Su-33. it's engine are

*Empty weight:* 18,400 kg (40,600 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 29,940 kg (66,010 lb)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 33,000 kg (72,752 lb)
*Powerplant:* 2 × AL-31F3 afterburning turbofans
*Dry thrust:* 74.5 kN (16,750 lbf) each
*Thrust with afterburner:* 125.5 kN (28,214 lbf) each

The last picture with a yellow plane is a Chinese J-15, it uses a WS-10 engine.

*Empty weight:* 17500 kg (38600 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 27000 kg (60000 lb)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 33000 kg (72752 lb)
*Powerplant:* 2 × WS-10A[37] afterburning turbofans[37]
*Dry thrust:* 89.17 kN (20,050 lbf) each
*Thrust with afterburner:* 135 kN[37] (33,000 lbf[37]) each

Yes, can see that Russian Su-33 is using afterburner. We can't determine J-15 is using AB. J-15's empty weight is one ton lower than Su-33 and have a more powerful engine. Plus we don't know the loading condition J-15.


Right now, J-15 pilots are purely in the beginning stage of training, doing only landing and take off. So there is no weapon mounted and minimal fuel.



Asok said:


> The first couple pictures are Russian Su-33. it's engine are
> 
> *Empty weight:* 18,400 kg (40,600 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 29,940 kg (66,010 lb)
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 33,000 kg (72,752 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × AL-31F3 afterburning turbofans
> *Dry thrust:* 74.5 kN (16,750 lbf) each
> *Thrust with afterburner:* 125.5 kN (28,214 lbf) each
> 
> The last picture with a yellow plane is a Chinese J-15, it uses a WS-10 engine.
> 
> *Empty weight:* 17500 kg (38600 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 27000 kg (60000 lb)
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 33000 kg (72752 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × WS-10A[37] afterburning turbofans[37]
> *Dry thrust:* 89.17 kN (20,050 lbf) each
> *Thrust with afterburner:* 135 kN[37] (33,000 lbf[37]) each
> 
> Yes, can see that Russian Su-33 is using afterburner. We can't determine J-15 is using AB. J-15's empty weight is one ton lower than Su-33 and have a more powerful engine. Plus we don't know the loading condition J-15.
> 
> 
> Right now, J-15 pilots are purely in the beginning stage of training, doing only landing and take off. So there is no weapon mounted and minimal fuel.



If anyone think J-20 is using AB at the Airshow, he needs eye glasses.

This is J-20 taking off with Afterburner.











This is J-10 using AB under cloudy condition.





This is J-20 flying under similar cloudy condition. Do you think it is also using AB? I don't see a long blue flame shoot out. I must need some eye glasses.

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## Deino

Asok said:


> This is J-20 flying under similar cloudy condition. Do you think it is also using AB?
> 
> View attachment 364271




Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...


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## Asoka

Deino said:


> Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...
> 
> View attachment 364272


 None of the above image shows J-20 is using AB, in my opinion. I look for a loooong blue intense flame shooting out of the nozzles.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> You really made my day !
> 
> Like I said, these videos were so much blurred and the J-20 much too small to conclude they did NOT use the AB ... in fact - even more to the contrary - as this image clearly shows, they used it and so it is not that far fetched that they used it not only in this split/break but especially in that climb as well.
> 
> Deino



So Black Dragon has helped you to defend my argument.

Still, this fella doesn't support the theory of the J-20 using the AL-31FM2.

PS, the J-20 at the Zhuhai show was flying at the low light foggy condition where the shock diamond shall become more visible, yet we haven't seen any sign of the shock diamond.

So no afterburner was used.

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## Asoka

I guess some people may not be familiar with what a red hot afterburner with looong blue flame looks like. Lets review them for various planes under different lighting conditions. It's an awesome scene to behold.

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## Asoka



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## Asoka

j20blackdragon said:


> The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.
> 
> The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is only moderately visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
> View attachment 364262







"Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below." This is funny. LOL. It shows J-15 NOT using the AB. If you see a very long blue flame shooting out like the Russian Su-33s, you must have excellent eyes. I don't.

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## messiach

Asok said:


> No one found by that name MEng.


MEng - Mechanical engineering.


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## Pepsi Cola

Here is an image of the J-15 take off with the afterburner visible, but only before the J-15 lift off and disappeared right after. So it could be that the J-15 only needed the after burner for a brief period to get the plane off the ground, but shut off the after burner right after












J-15 taking off a ramp under low light condition also does not show after burner.

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## Asoka

Okarus said:


> Here is an image of the J-15 take off with the afterburner visible, but only before the J-15 lift off and disappeared right after. So it could be that the J-15 only needed the after burner for a brief period to get the plane off the ground, but shut off the after burner right after
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-15 taking off a ramp under low light condition also does not show after burner.



Why would anyone turn off their AfterBurner in the middle of their short take off on a Aircraft Carrier? To greatly improve their chance of plunging into the ocean, a few feet below?

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## Ultima Thule

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So Black Dragon has helped you to defend my argument.
> 
> Still, this fella doesn't support the theory of the J-20 using the AL-31FM2.
> 
> PS, the J-20 at the Zhuhai show was flying at the low light foggy condition where the shock diamond shall become more visible, yet we haven't seen any sign of the shock diamond.
> 
> So no afterburner was used.


Because their *western EGO* can't accept the fact that Chinese engine on J-20 is already surpass western ones

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## Pepsi Cola

I'm a noob. Don't judge me ))))

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## Asoka

pakistanipower said:


> Because their *western EGO* can't accept the fact that Chinese engine on J-20 is already surpass western ones



Things didn't need to turn out this way. They have the most dominant Air Machine in the world, the F-22, but decided to stop production at 188 instead of 800 as planned. They also have the world's most powerful engine in production, the F135 with max. thrust >196kN and they put it on F-35, and decided to produce 2400+ of those flying pigs, or flying coffins.

Their *Western Ego* got them good.

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## BoQ77

1. You could see that F-22 using afterburner doing that turn clearly. Yes.
But how we could make sure that's the best performance of F-22.
Compare to F-22 in not-the-best performance is meaningless.






2. J-20 using AB or not in this or that turn. It's hard to tell because of smog. But I think I did see it using AB in the flight at Zhuhai Airshow,





start to make a climb









3. During the video J-20 climbed vertically in 11 seconds. I don't consider that's long time. You can even reach that using inertia. J-20 always do that to make an upside down turn.

4. Another matter we don't know THE WEIGHT AT THE TIME OF J-20. That's the important thing.
J-20 debut time could be counted in seconds. It can burn down most of its fuel to reach the lighter weight and remove other non-related things on it for the better performance.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.
> 
> Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.
> 
> How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?
> 
> View attachment 363654
> 
> 
> View attachment 363655


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## Asoka

Okarus said:


> I'm a noob. Don't judge me ))))



"In computer science, a NOP or *NOOP* (short for No Operation) is an assembly language instruction, programming language statement, or computer protocol command that does nothing."

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## BoQ77

Asok said:


> None of the above image shows J-20 is using AB, in my opinion. I look for a loooong blue intense flame shooting out of the nozzles.





Deino said:


> Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...
> 
> View attachment 364272







@Deino : Asok said that J-20 in above pic didn't use AB
@Asok : we all said that the J-20 in above pic using AB
the long blue flame shooting out as you said is FULL AB in visible condition


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## Asoka

View attachment 364437


BoQ77 said:


> @Deino : Asok said that J-20 in above pic didn't use AB
> @Asok : we all said that the J-20 in above pic using AB



I will be quiet until the PDF members figure out what is Afterburner. Hint: turn on the afterburner is not just turn on the ignition of the engine. 

How can a senior member of PDF with the rank of General don't know what is turning on the afterburner like?

Do he really think afterburner is just seeing some flame from the nozzle, not a whole lot, like half a body length long?

How could anybody think this two planes have the same engine state of both turning on the Afterburner?






The Butt Gang boys, who likes to compare the nozzle of J-20 with the AL-31FN are convinced that J-20 is using that Russian engine. How come their afterburners doesn't look anywhere like each other?






What kind of topics does this member usually spend his time on?

Man, I am floored!

Excuse me. Let me pick up my jaw from the ground first, before I speak again.

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## gambit

Asok said:


> This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.


This is where you are wrong.

The F119 is considered to be a near turbojet while it is technically a turbofan. In other words, the F119's bypass air is so low that the engine *APPEARS* to be in constant afterburner without actually being in reheat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbofan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F119

The F119's bypass ratio (BPR) is 0.30 : 1

That is practically turbojet territory.

But the F110's bypass ratio is not that far behind either.

http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f110/

The use of AB in maneuvers does not mean the jet need AB to execute a maneuver. In order to sustain a 9g turn, and unlike you I know what that feels like, then yes, AB will be required. But in ACM, you will want to execute the tightest turn you can and if AB is needed, you will use AB for those *SUSTAINED* maneuvers. For instantaneous maneuvers, AB is not always required. Aerodynamics will make the displacement just fine. The issue is *SUSTAINED MANEUVERS* that will required reheat to overcome speed loss, which mean decreased aerodynamic forces on the flight control surfaces.

This is what make the F119 engine deceptive. It *LOOKS* like it is in reheat when it is not. That means the F-22 pilot have an unknown reserve of engine power available to him.

Unknown to you, not to him.

You do not know what you are talking about.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.
> 
> The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions.


You are correct.






Fast forward to timestamp 1:15.

By this time, the Bone is in a climb angle *NOT* normal for a take off. It was an airshow take off. Nevertheless, all four engines -- General Electric F101-GE-102 -- were in reheat for this airshow take off and their AB flames were not visible.

That does not mean the AB flames do not exists. They do. But as you pointed out, under certain lighting conditions, the AB flames may not be visible for photography quality images for a few minutes.

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## Asoka

gambit said:


> You are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to timestamp 1:15.
> 
> By this time, the Bone is in a climb angle *NOT* normal for a take off. It was an airshow take off. Nevertheless, all four engines -- General Electric F101-GE-102 -- were in reheat for this airshow take off and their AB flames were not visible.
> 
> That does not mean the AB flames do not exists. They do. But as you pointed out, under certain lighting conditions, the AB flames may not be visible for photography quality images for a few minutes.



I finally got it. Thanks so much for your enlightenment, gambit. I am not as dumb as you may think.

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## BoQ77

Did you notice that all of your below pic taken at take off ?



Asok said:


> I guess some people may not be familiar with what a red hot afterburner with looong blue flame looks like. Lets review them for various planes under different lighting conditions. It's an awesome scene to behold.
> 
> View attachment 364289
> View attachment 364290
> View attachment 364291
> View attachment 364292
> View attachment 364293
> View attachment 364324

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## Han Patriot

Can we just stop this debate? Fine, there is no native engine, it's all a failure. Until then, let us assume there is no working engine at all, therefore, let us share news in this thread. China is famous for announcing things for something which happened years before. Let's see and wait.

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## onebyone

Han Patriot said:


> Can we just stop this debate? Fine, there is no native engine, it's all a failure. Until then, let us assume there is no working engine at all, therefore, let us share news in this thread. China is famous for announcing things for something which happened years before. Let's see and wait.

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## j20blackdragon



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## Deino

As far as I know an old image of an over-ambitious modeller adding a TVC-nozzle to his kit.


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## Daniel808

Military Capabilities
*China launches academy to boost aero-engine research and development*
*Jon Grevatt, Bangkok* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
30 December 2016






*Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC)*

The newly established Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) has launched a research institute that aims to support the country's efforts to build powerplants for its front-line military/commercial aircraft.

The Aero Engine Academy of China is located in Beijing and will be responsible for leading AECC's research and development (R&D) activities, said AECC chairman Cao Jianguo in comments to China's state-run Xinhua news agency on 28 December.

The Aviation Industry of China (AVIC), which played a key role in the establishment of AECC earlier this year, said in a statement that the new academy will "accelerate" China's development of aero-engines and related technologies

http://www.janes.com/article/66606/...to-boost-aero-engine-research-and-development




*1st national-level aero-engine research institute launched*

Xinhua, December 29, 2016

Aero Engine Academy of China, the country's first national-level aeroengine research institute, was inaugurated on Wednesday in Beijing.

Established by the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC), the institute will lead and support research and development in aeroengine field, said Cao Jianguo, chairman of the AECC.

Liu Daxiang, a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said the capacity to design and manufacture aero-engines is crucial to restructuring.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2016-12/29/content_40003227.htm

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## Daniel808

Industry
*China's Aero Engine Corporation secures credit for expansion drive*
*Jon Grevatt, Bangkok* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
03 January 2017





*Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC)*


The Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) - the country's newest defence industrial enterprise - has entered a finance agreement with the China Development Bank (CDB) to gain access to credit to support industrial expansion, it has been announced.

In a statement on 30 December, the State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND) - the Chinese government body responsible for defence industrial development - said the deal would cover a range of activities undertaken by AECC as it seeks to become a major aero-engine manufacturer.

These include major AECC research and development projects, infrastructure development, civil-military integration programmes, as well as manufacturing activities, said SASTIND.

http://www.janes.com/article/66635/...orporation-secures-credit-for-expansion-drive

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## grey boy 2

Good news. WS13E will be undergoing mass production this year (好消息！！WS13E今年将实现量产)
他强调2016年是“十三五”开局之年，黎阳要从三个方面开展工作，一是一心一意强新机，把新机研制和实现量产作为重中之重，思维要新、方法要实、行动要快、措施要硬，以过硬的手段和措施全力推进新机的研制生产，确保新机目标任务如期实现
2016-02-19 10:42 中国航空新闻网

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## nang2

grey boy 2 said:


> Good news. WS13E will be undergoing mass production this year (好消息！！WS13E今年将实现量产)
> 他强调2016年是“十三五”开局之年，黎阳要从三个方面开展工作，一是一心一意强新机，把新机研制和实现量产作为重中之重，思维要新、方法要实、行动要快、措施要硬，以过硬的手段和措施全力推进新机的研制生产，确保新机目标任务如期实现
> 2016-02-19 10:42 中国航空新闻网


what's the point of posting news that is almost one year old?


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## grey boy 2

nang2 said:


> what's the point of posting news that is almost one year old?


Guess you have no idea thats just how the Chinese internet military news work? Do you?
You will never getting update information, one year old is not too bad already
Anyway, don't like it, stop reading it, as simple as that
PS, learn some manners, you're not at your own home

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> Guess you have no idea thats just how the Chinese internet military news work? Do you?
> You will never getting update information, one year old is not too bad already
> Anyway, don't like it, stop reading it, as simple as that
> PS, learn some manners, you're not at your own home


Mass production of WS13E for JF17 or FC31 or JL9? Can JH7A fit WS13E?

I think if it goes to mass production, it must have lot of requirement!

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## grey boy 2

wanglaokan said:


> Mass production of WS13E for JF17 or FC31 or JL9? Can JH7A fit WS13E?
> 
> I think if it goes to mass production, it must have lot of requirement!



As far as i've heard, WS13E will fit FC-31 and FC-1(JF-17), not sure about JH-7A and others

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## yusheng

连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展
王健平 周蕊 武丹 
【摘要】：连续旋转爆轰发动机(CRDE)是一种基于爆轰燃烧方式的新概念发动机,具有一次起爆、燃烧速度快、热效率高、结构紧凑等优点,有望带来航空航天推进技术的跨越式发展,近年来受到世界各主要国家的高度关注。本文从基本概念、应用前景、实验研究和数值模拟等角度,对连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展进行了全面综述。通过总结有代表性的研究成果,给出尚待解决的问题,为其进一步工程化应用研究提供参考。
【作者单位】： 北京大学工学院力学与工程科学系湍流与复杂系统国家重点实验室;北京应用物理与计算数学研究所; 
【关键词】： 连续旋转爆轰发动机 CRDE 综述 推进技术 航空航天 
【基金】：国家自然科学基金重大计划(91441110) 航天创新基金(SY41YYF2014009) 
【分类号】：TK401
【正文快照】：
数学研究所,北京100094)2015,29(4):12-25.王健平,周蕊,武丹.连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展实验流体力学,2015,29(4):12-25.0引言燃烧一般定义为:产生热或同时产生光和热的快速氧化反应;也包括只伴随少量热没有光的慢速氧化反应。燃烧在推进系统中起着重要作用,它通过化学反应



Continuous Detonation Engine and Effects of Different Types of Nozzle on Its Propulsion Performance
【摘要】：The rotating propagation of a continuous detonation engine(CDE) with different types of nozzles is investigated in three-dimensional numerical simulation using a one-step chemical reaction model.Flux terms are solved by the so-called monotonicity-preserving weighted essentially non-oscillatory(MPWENO) scheme.The simulated flow field agrees well with the previous experimental results.Once the initial transient effects die down,the detonation wave maintains continuous oscillatory propagation in the annular chamber as long as fuel is continuously injected.Using a numerical flow field,the propulsion performance of a CDE is computed for four types of nozzles,namely the constant-area nozzle,Laval nozzle,diverging nozzle and converging nozzle.The gross specific impulse of the CDE ranges 1 540-1 750 s and the mass flux per square meter ranges 313-330 kg/(m2·s) for different nozzles.Among these four types of nozzles,Laval nozzle performs the best,and these parameters are 1 800 N,1 750 s and 313 kg/(m2·s).A nozzle can greatly improve the propulsion performance.
【关键词】： continuous detonation engine;propulsion performance;nozzle effects;Laval nozzle;hypersonic 
【基金】：Aeronautical Science Foundation of China (2008ZH71006)

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## nang2

grey boy 2 said:


> Guess you have no idea thats just how the Chinese internet military news work? Do you?
> You will never getting update information, one year old is not too bad already
> Anyway, don't like it, stop reading it, as simple as that
> PS, learn some manners, you're not at your own home


It is not that something that happened 1 year ago just got exposed now. I have seen the same post you copied here on CJDBY that was posted 1 year ago.

PS. Learn to understand the simple truth. Don't let your ego drive your reason out and replace it with emotion.

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## WarFariX

nang2 said:


> It is not that something that happened 1 year ago just got exposed now. I have seen the same post you copied here on CJDBY that was posted 1 year ago.
> 
> PS. Learn to understand the simple truth. Don't let your ego drive your reason out and replace it with emotion.


i dont live in china but i need to make account on CJDBY but they asking for chinese phone number and also i cant use many options of page and also cant see photos without logging in...could u help me somehow...i tried wechat login but error came


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## grey boy 2

nang2 said:


> It is not that something that happened 1 year ago just got exposed now. I have seen the same post you copied here on CJDBY that was posted 1 year ago.
> 
> PS. Learn to understand the simple truth. Don't let your ego drive your reason out and replace it with emotion.



You're always right, no body is interesting in your everyone own you something attitude
I'm only trying to share pics or information which i found seems interesting, i've no obligations to please, responsible for the contents of the information or pics, i'm not here being paid to do it for some demanding, picky but with NO contribution nobody
*I found the content of the WS13E yesterday, not a year ago, anyone is welcome to go there to check it out, its on page 1 from yesterday
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2171118-1-2.html*
Please leave my posts alone like you've said you got bored because i've posted too much Y-20 pictures that you expected something else, i'm not here to entertain you period

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> ...
> *I found the content of the WS14E yesterday, not a year ago, anyone is welcome to go there to check it out, its on page 1 from yesterday
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2171118-1-2.html*
> ...




Ohhh ... WS-14 ?? what type of engine is this ??


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Ohhh ... WS-14 ?? what type of engine is this ??


Sorry, typo mistake, its WS13 instead

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## Deino

o.k. !


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## Asoka

yusheng said:


> 连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展
> 王健平 周蕊 武丹
> 【摘要】：连续旋转爆轰发动机(CRDE)是一种基于爆轰燃烧方式的新概念发动机,具有一次起爆、燃烧速度快、热效率高、结构紧凑等优点,有望带来航空航天推进技术的跨越式发展,近年来受到世界各主要国家的高度关注。本文从基本概念、应用前景、实验研究和数值模拟等角度,对连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展进行了全面综述。通过总结有代表性的研究成果,给出尚待解决的问题,为其进一步工程化应用研究提供参考。
> 【作者单位】： 北京大学工学院力学与工程科学系湍流与复杂系统国家重点实验室;北京应用物理与计算数学研究所;
> 【关键词】： 连续旋转爆轰发动机 CRDE 综述 推进技术 航空航天
> 【基金】：国家自然科学基金重大计划(91441110) 航天创新基金(SY41YYF2014009)
> 【分类号】：TK401
> 【正文快照】：
> 数学研究所,北京100094)2015,29(4):12-25.王健平,周蕊,武丹.连续旋转爆轰发动机的研究进展实验流体力学,2015,29(4):12-25.0引言燃烧一般定义为:产生热或同时产生光和热的快速氧化反应;也包括只伴随少量热没有光的慢速氧化反应。燃烧在推进系统中起着重要作用,它通过化学反应
> 
> 
> 
> Continuous Detonation Engine and Effects of Different Types of Nozzle on Its Propulsion Performance
> 【摘要】：The rotating propagation of a continuous detonation engine(CDE) with different types of nozzles is investigated in three-dimensional numerical simulation using a one-step chemical reaction model.Flux terms are solved by the so-called monotonicity-preserving weighted essentially non-oscillatory(MPWENO) scheme.The simulated flow field agrees well with the previous experimental results.Once the initial transient effects die down,the detonation wave maintains continuous oscillatory propagation in the annular chamber as long as fuel is continuously injected.Using a numerical flow field,the propulsion performance of a CDE is computed for four types of nozzles,namely the constant-area nozzle,Laval nozzle,diverging nozzle and converging nozzle.The gross specific impulse of the CDE ranges 1 540-1 750 s and the mass flux per square meter ranges 313-330 kg/(m2·s) for different nozzles.Among these four types of nozzles,Laval nozzle performs the best,and these parameters are 1 800 N,1 750 s and 313 kg/(m2·s).A nozzle can greatly improve the propulsion performance.
> 【关键词】： continuous detonation engine;propulsion performance;nozzle effects;Laval nozzle;hypersonic
> 【基金】：Aeronautical Science Foundation of China (2008ZH71006)



I just did a google search on "Continuous Detonation Engine". There is a lot of information on this new type of engine. The research is very active. No need to use the troublesome fan or blades to compress the air. Thanks!

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## Deino

http://www.janes.com/article/67235/china-and-russia-to-collaborate-on-aero-engine-r-d



> State-owned enterprises in China and Russia have agreed to collaborate on aero-engine technologies, China's State Administration for Science, Technology, and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND) has announced.
> 
> The memorandum of understanding (MOU) was signed in mid-January by the China Aviation Research Institute (CAI) - a subsidiary of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) - and Russia's Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM), SASTIND said in a press release published on 24 January.
> 
> According to SASTIND, the MOU will support a "long-term co-operative partnership between the two institutions". It added that the agreement would support potential collaboration in a range of aero-engine activities, including simulation technologies, distributed control systems, engine health management, thermal management, and fluid control.

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## WarFariX

@Deino could i know the wet and dry thrust of ws13e..even if rumoured , what is it


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## Deino

Not sure how reliable this discussion is, but there seem to be some interesting news (via'jobjed'/SDF):

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2365666-1-1.html



> 1. The chief designer of the Taishan has transferred from Guizhou Liyang to the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Institute of Engineering Thermophysics. Apparently he left just when Liyang was about to assign him to an expert group.
> 
> 2. WS-15 development is encountering difficulties. It is currently in "stage C" which is the stage where preparations are made to mount the engine onto a ground-based testbed.
> 
> 3. WS-20 probably won't be mounted on Y-20 this year.
> 
> 4. In 2016, the WS-20's shaft broke during testing. This means QA is being revamped before WS-20 can proceed further. The latest picture that showed the WS-20 de-mounted from the Il-76 testbed aircraft is due to the need to replace and investigate the damaged WS-20.
> 
> 5. The next-gen medium-thrust engine project is about to be commissioned with the goal of beginning its use around 2022.
> 
> 6. The aforementioned Institute of Engineering Thermophysics apparently designed a very nice low-thrust engine that put AVIC to shame.
> 
> 7. The WS-10B did not compromise lifespan in exchange for increased thrust.
> 
> 8. The progress on the WS-10B is pretty good. Progress on WS-10IPE is unclear.
> 
> 9. 624th Institute, based in Chengdu, successfully developed the WS-500 and its close sibling, the WP-200. They are now trying very hard to prove themselves so they can be assigned more important projects.
> 
> 10. The WS-500 was recently mounted on a UAV which was _launched via EMALS._ That is news to me! When did a UAV equipped with a small turbofan get launched using EMALS?
> 
> 11. Guizhou Liyang, where the insider works, will deliver 3rd-gen turbofan to the PLAAF and PLANAF this year; currently unclear as to which engines those will be. Engine generations in China are identical to fighter aircraft generation. So WS-10 and J-11B are 3rd-gen products.
> 
> Besides discrete points, the poster also expressed his perspective on interactions between various institutes and plants. He does not think very optimistically of Liyang's prospects as AVIC has apparently been giving them unrealistic goals and being all-round disruptive to Taishan's development.
> 
> SAC also took a comprehensively-tested engine core design along with supplementary material from 624th as the basis for WS-15. This means that 624th basically did most of the design work for the WS-15 and 606th is responsible for bringing the design to fruition.




Deino

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## zestokryl

And "minshan" is dropped too ? 

China is a gold mine for Motor Sich. Btw wonder what WS 200 and 500 are all about. Are thise UAV engines only ....


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Not sure how reliable this discussion is, but there seem to be some interesting news (via'jobjed'/SDF):
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2365666-1-1.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deino


no update on WS13E ?
SEEMS J20 WITH FULLY FUNCTIONAL WS15 IS STILL 5 YEARS AHEAD

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## JSCh

*Stealth fighter soon powered by local engines*
By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2017-03-13 03:51

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

"It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat plane to have China-made engines," said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials. Chen, also a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was referring to the J-20 stealth fighter.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We also have begun to design a next-generation aviation engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current types," he said. Thrust-to-weight ratio is considered the top indicator of an aviation engine's capability.

Chen, who is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, spoke to China Daily on the sidelines of the political advisory body's annual session.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force recently confirmed, without elaborating, that the J-20 has been put into active service. Aviation industry observers said the plane is still equipped with Russian-made engines due to the lack of a suitable domestically developed engine.

Chen said Chinese scientists and engineers are striving to catch up to the world's top players in terms of research and development into cutting-edge aviation engines, but the country still has a long way to go before it can develop and produce world-class engines, Chen said.

"For instance, we are able to develop the two most important components in an advanced engine — the single crystal superalloy turbine blades and powder metallurgy superalloy turbine disks — but in mass production, the products' quality is not very satisfactory," he said. It is a matter of time and persistence to make reliable engines, he said.

"The road to success is filled with setbacks and failures. Each of the world's engine powers has walked this road," Chen added.

Yin Zeyong, head of AECC's science and technology commission, previously said that a good engine is the result of not only good design but also time-consuming experiments and tests.

Despite China's tremendous achievements in science, technology and manufacturing industries over the past several decades, aircraft engine-making remains one of the few fields in which the country still lags behind top players like the United States and Russia. Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, such as the afterburning turbofan engine, which drives the US Lockheed Martin F-22 and Russia's Sukhoi Su-35, only the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have the technical wherewithal to develop and produce them.

Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.

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## Daniel808

> Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with *indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.*



WS-20 Engine for Xian Y-20 Strategic Airlifter in the next year?
Love this part 

Congrats to our Chinese brothers

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## samsara

_"...Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, such as the afterburning turbofan engine, which drives the US Lockheed Martin F-22 and Russia's Sukhoi Su-35, *only the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have the technical wherewithal to develop and produce them*."_

*REALLY? Only five countries? No Germany? No Japan? Or any other?*

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## Arthur

samsara said:


> _"...Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, such as the afterburning turbofan engine, which drives the US Lockheed Martin F-22 and Russia's Sukhoi Su-35, *only the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have the technical wherewithal to develop and produce them*."_
> 
> *REALLY? Only five countries? No Germany? No Japan? Or any other?*


Germany has the capabilities. But what's the point? The application will be so little it won't be economical to develop one alone. That's why The EU jointly developed the EJ 200 for the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Japan has the capabilities, but not for an high thrust one. There 5 th generation tech demonstrator 'Shinshin' has Japanese made enginess AFAIK.

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## Han Patriot

I think Chinese media was referring to thrust >100kn. Only China, US and Russia can produce it. The problem with WS-10A was never about thrust and thrust:weight, it was about production quality and reliability. I heard newer engines are around 2000-3000 hrs, half of the 5000-6000 hrs lifespan of US engines.

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## cirr

WS-15 before maiden flight???

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> I think Chinese media was referring to thrust >100kn. Only China, US and Russia can produce it. The problem with WS-10A was never about thrust and thrust:weight, it was about production quality and reliability. I heard newer engines are around 2000-3000 hrs, half of the 5000-6000 hrs lifespan of US engines.


The newest one has increased lifespan to 3500-4000 hours.

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## Han Patriot

I think we need at least 10 years+ to catch up to America's latest engines. In 3-5 years, I think we would have reached parity with Russia.

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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> WS-15 before maiden flight???
> 
> View attachment 398424


How do you know it's WS15 bro


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## Deino

cirr said:


> WS-15 before maiden flight???
> 
> View attachment 398424




Can You please give a full translation of the text ??


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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> WS-15 before maiden flight???
> 
> View attachment 398424


How do you know it's WS15 bro


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## kuge

Deino said:


> Can You please give a full translation of the text ??


pre-first flight of a certain engine type 
experiment results review
venue:block 4 , 3rd floor meeting room

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## WarFariX

cirr said:


> WS-15 before maiden flight???
> 
> View attachment 398424


forgodsake plz translate before giving


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## cirr

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> forgodsake plz translate before giving



Test results review meeting of a certain type of engine prior to maiden flight

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## jkroo

It officially confirmed that Ws15 is ready

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## Deino

jkroo said:


> It officially confirmed that Ws15 is ready



But no images yet? .. Would love to see how the nozzle differs to the WS-10.


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## jkroo

https://m.toutiao.com/i642423997301...qq&iid=10666765696&utm_medium=toutiao_android

@Asok you need to read it then you determine. Lol



Deino said:


> But no images yet? .. Would love to see how the nozzle differs to the WS-10.


No image, CCTV 4 report. It may start serial production in 2016. LOL

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## Asoka

jkroo said:


> https://m.toutiao.com/i642423997301...qq&iid=10666765696&utm_medium=toutiao_android
> 
> @Asok you need to read it then you determine. Lol
> 
> 
> No image, CCTV 4 report. It may start serial production in 2016. LOL



J-20 have been flying with WS-15, since DAY ONE. I am not surprised that its ready for serial production.

The link doesn't work.

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## jkroo

Asok said:


> J-20 have been flying with WS-15, since DAY ONE. I am not surprised that its ready for serial production.
> 
> The link doesn't work.


Not sure about day one but the day when military fans heared different sounds of engines that's it.

The link seems strange, pls search CCTV4 峨眉 in domestic forums then you will find it.

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## samsara

Asok said:


> J-20 have been flying with WS-15, since DAY ONE. I am not surprised that its ready for serial production.
> 
> The link doesn't work.









歼-20发动机振奋消息，中国大爆发由三代太行直跨五代“峨眉” - 今日头条(www.toutiao.com)
http://www.toutiao.com/i6424239973016273410/

Google translate:
https://translate.google.com.hk/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=zh-TW&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.toutiao.com/i6424239973016273410/&edit-text=

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## 帅的一匹

Has WS15 entered mass production stage?

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## Asoka

samsara said:


> 歼-20发动机振奋消息，中国大爆发由三代太行直跨五代“峨眉” - 今日头条(www.toutiao.com)
> http://www.toutiao.com/i6424239973016273410/
> 
> Google translate:
> https://translate.google.com.hk/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=zh-TW&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.toutiao.com/i6424239973016273410/&edit-text=



I think it is just terminology. The US came up with the idea of F-22 being the 4th generation fighter, and the Russians defined their T-50 as 5th generations fighter. Some Chinese still classify J-20 as 4th generation, while I prefer to call it 5th generation.

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## Ultima Thule

Asok said:


> I think it is just terminology. The US came up with the idea of F-22 being the 4th generation fighter, and the Russians defined their T-50 as 5th generations fighter. Some Chinese still classify J-20 as 4th generation, while I prefer to call it 5th generation.


Chinese generation term is -1 from western or Russian terms, that mean Chinese 4th generation is equal to western or Russian 5th generation

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## yusheng

abstract translation:
Daokou, he insisted that J20 use WS15 long ago just without any solid evidence. and he also pointed out the existence of WS14 Kunlun, now proved.

another rumor (2012) was:

there are four types of ws15, the reason why they have same code is unkown.
the first type ws15 is 15 ton thrust for J10, and at the same time Chengdu aircraft company need a 17 ton engine for her newly designed aircraft, based on ws15, 17ton ws15 appeared, chengdu applied this ws15 on J10 too though there were many small issues on the new engine.

at the same time, a strange event happened, a small stated owned manufacturer developed a new technological process which can massively decrease the weight of engine by "xxxxxxx turbine blade", such progress could be also regarded as a revolution, and engine made under such tech could be regarded as a new conception engine.

so, proof analysis were carried out internally, finally military related department reckoned it's feasible, since the new tech can massively decrease the weight of engine, new engine can carry more blades. the result is that J20's ws15 has 24ton thrust.

not too long, the new 24ton ws15 came out, but with many issues since the 15ton and 17ton were still under development.

upon the same period, shenyang J31++ is looking for a suitable engine too because the original engine for J31 did not have good life span. then chengdu and shenyang two manufacturers established a jointed committee to co-develop a new engine, which code is still ws15, but was simplified version. last year, a craft body was transportted from shenyang to xian to study how to install new ws15 to J31. as for that J31 flying over shenyang is a smoke grenade.







( reasonable explanation is for static loads test， but shenyang has abilities to carry out such test on a such small body )


there is the fifth type of ws15, the Vector one, however it seems not necessary due to its high trust. except tech research, every one now focus on engine.

the recent results: the simplified version is ok now, 24ton ws15 is basically fine.

beliver it or not.

*http://hongdezk.com/a/linxidiaosou/20170528/94910.html*

*刀口：打脸要沉住气*

2017-05-28 08:14
栏目：临溪钓叟

我的确一直说是歼二十一开始就装的峨眉涡扇十五的，这个没有错。

让我们“再次”庆祝胜利吧！所谓再次，就是每被证实一次，崇洋媚外的跪舔派们就要抵赖一次，那就让我们一次次庆祝，一次次欢呼吧！哈哈哈！

大家有时间喝一杯！

打小白和跪舔派的脸要沉住气，这次走进中国《匠心》报道里，昆仑赫然出现，记得当年那些跪舔大V们说的吗？“昆仑已死，有事烧纸”，这回报道里有昆仑装配的镜头，你看当年那些小王八蛋们还露头吗？这脸打的PIAPIA的，笑死。

2012年有人在天涯发的帖子 

消息的来源我就不细说了，我爷爷开会回来我问出来的，马上就要公开了，不算什么泄密。
　　大家一直以为ws15是一款发动机，其实不是， ws15一共是四款，我不知道为啥不各自搞个代号，方便区分。这其中的曲折还是很有传奇色彩的。
　　原本 ws15是最大推力15吨，用在歼十上的，结果中间出了一款小插曲，成飞设计了一款新飞机也缺发动机，就想把 ws15改一下，改到貌似是十七吨，但是当时把握不大，就想了个办法两款一起搞，当时口号是保十五争十七。
　　最传奇的就在这，十五吨搞好了，在歼十上试飞了。十七吨型号的也行，但是小问题不少，也是准备放歼十上先试一试。就在这时出了一件神奇的事情，中央的一个小小的企业，搞制造的，搞出了一个新工艺，直接解决了发动机核心的叶片的问题，不但解决了，还大大减轻了发动机的重量，已经不是量变而是质变了。
　　当时就这事内部军工兔开会论证了一阵子，毕竟这玩意谁也没搞过，在某些方面上来说已经是款新概念发动机了。当时论证的结果是可以造出来。这里还有个大问题，航空发动机重了不行，轻了就更不行了，这种新工艺最大的特色就是降低了发动机的重量，如此就必须增加叶片，最后的论证，推力必须增加叶片，把最大推力增加到24吨才能装到新飞机上， 其实就是歼二十上，你没听错，是最大推力最低必须达到24吨。 
　　这个论证结果让军工兔顿时蛋疼的厉害，但是没办法还是得造啊。军工兔又开始了 ws15第三个个型号的设计制造，果然没过多久要出来了，其实整体上改的不大，就是叶片加了不少。所以造的倒是挺快，但问题就出在前两款都还没搞好，这款发动机搞出来了，问题大大的有。太先进了也蛋疼。
　　这时候出了一件更奇葩的事情，应该就是沈飞的小二黑31型。也缺发动机。小二黑的个头不大，而且小二黑的发动机军工兔早研究过了，就是寿命不行。这下正好，把两个单位人员合并一下，成立个新的委员会统一指挥，做个简易型号安上去做实验，型号还是叫ws15. 蛋疼！这样就既能验证新概念发动机，又能两款一起实验好快速发现问题，快速定型。于是 ws15出了第四个型号。上次运去的那架粽子机就是拉去研究怎么装发动机的。实验这种简化版的新概念发动机。沈飞那架哥么觉得就是个烟雾弹。
　　其实还有第五款，就是矢量的，但是不准备生产了，因为新发动机不需要矢量技术。只是还在做技术研究，貌似没人对他感兴趣，撂在一边，兔子都忙着新发动机去了。
　　告诉大家一个好消息，这次我爷爷去开会，就是内部定型的会议，简化版的早没啥问题，24吨的也基本都解决了，这次成果汇报会之后应该就定型了。

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## 帅的一匹

24 吨？给我一拳，我是在做梦么。

看来网传WS10b用的涡扇15核心机没错了。

真是惊天猛料

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## Han Patriot

Guys, do you realize the CCTV link for the documentary had been deleted? . Something fishy happening? I guess they revealed too much on that show.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Guys, do you realize the CCTV link for the documentary had been deleted? . Something fishy happening? I guess they revealed too much on that show.


Shit happens

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## Han Patriot

Deino, i am sorry to say this, based on typical chinese behaviour, they will never use a Russian engine on J-20. From the documentary and the words used, we know for sure those 2 debut J-20s at Zhuhai are definitely Chinese. I have to declare that you lost the argument.

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## 帅的一匹

我觉得18吨很牛了，24吨的话要多大函道比啊？


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## Jlaw

Han Patriot said:


> Guys, do you realize the CCTV link for the documentary had been deleted? . Something fishy happening? I guess they revealed too much on that show.


Chinese are known to have big mouths. Hence many cannot be in organized criminal syndicates and secret societies

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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Deino, i am sorry to say this, based on typical chinky behaviour, they will never use a Russian engine on J-20. From the documentary and the words used, we know for sure those 2 debut J-20s at Zhuhai are definitely Chinese. I have to declare that you lost the argument.



No, not as long it is clearly on the table what kind of engine, its Chinese designation and specific performance data is know.

The fact alone that the j-20 uses a "locally manufactured (aka Chinese) engine) is not that los my bet !"
To admit I'm a bit irritated that You and others don't seem to be interested what kind of engine the J-20 uses.

Deino


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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> No, not as long it is clearly on the table what kind of engine, its Chinese designation and specific performance data is know.
> 
> The fact alone that the j-20 uses a "locally manufactured (aka Chinese) engine) is not that los my bet !"
> To admit I'm a bit irritated that You and others don't seem to be interested what kind of engine the J-20 uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Deino


Well lets see how it progresses these few months. Do you know J-10 was only officially acknowledged after 10 years. The most signigicant thing is this was revealed by CCTV and now the video is gone from CCTV archive. Lucky some copies wers uploaded to Sina and bilibili.

Btw, I am interested to know which engine was used. After this we can debate whether its up to international standards. But we can now close the mystery of J-20s engine, it was Chinese all along.

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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Well lets see how it progresses these few months. Do you know J-10 was only officially acknowledged after 10 years. The most signigicant thing is this was revealed by CCTV and now the video is gone from CCTV archive. Lucky some copies wers uploaded to Sina and bilibili.
> 
> Btw, I am interested to know which engine was used. After this we can debate whether its up to international standards.



Agreed and YES I know. The J-10 was officially denied even if it was well known by more than one aircraft and several high-quality images were already posted.



> But we can now close the mystery of J-20s engine, it was Chinese all along.



NO !! That fact alone it is "Chinese manufactured" is in no way an answer to what type of engine (= designation) and with what specifications.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Deino said:


> Agreed and YES I know. The J-10 was officially denied even if it was well known by more than one aircraft and several high-quality images were already posted.
> 
> 
> 
> NO !! That fact alone it is "Chinese manufactured" is in no way an answer to what type of engine (= designation) and with what specifications.




Teacherman,

We know your Germanness! And we love it...

Great hearted that you are... it is time to accept that Subtle Chinese have indeed started the mass production of WS15... if the grapevine is correct... PAC will also be getting some great ToT for local production of a certain Chinese engine...

With my Chinese brethren the Western logic doesn't apply... they follow the _Way_... even when most of them don't know that they follow the _Way_... it is Cultural Thing!

I, for one, am enjoying this unfolding... 

We shall have to wait for another decade to see factory pictures of WS15 by that time Chinese will be on to something inter-galactic...

You have a great Sunday!

Back to the grind of School for you tomorrow...

SPF

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## Asoka

Jlaw said:


> Chinese are known to have big mouths. Hence many cannot be in organized criminal syndicates and secret societies



Yes, even the link on Youtube got deleted. It no longer works.

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## messiach

AECC single crystal superalloy tur Bld & PM tur Disks has put China clearly in front head to head competition. C919 is another massive beneficiary. All euro-asian markets are now open to capture. Uncle sam should be having fits now.



yusheng said:


> abstract translation:
> Daokou, he insisted that J20 use WS15 long ago just without any solid evidence. and he also pointed out the existence of WS14 Kunlun, now proved.
> 
> another rumor (2012) was:
> 
> there are four types of ws15, the reason why they have same code is unkown.
> the first type ws15 is 15 ton thrust for J10, and at the same time Chengdu aircraft company need a 17 ton engine for her newly designed aircraft, based on ws15, 17ton ws15 appeared, chengdu applied this ws15 on J10 too though there were many small issues on the new engine.
> 
> at the same time, a strange event happened, a small stated owned manufacturer developed a new technological process which can massively decrease the weight of engine by "xxxxxxx turbine blade", such progress could be also regarded as a revolution, and engine made under such tech could be regarded as a new conception engine.
> 
> so, proof analysis were carried out internally, finally military related department reckoned it's feasible, since the new tech can massively decrease the weight of engine, new engine can carry more blades. the result is that J20's ws15 has 24ton thrust.
> 
> not too long, the new 24ton ws15 came out, but with many issues since the 15ton and 17ton were still under development.
> 
> upon the same period, shenyang J31++ is looking for a suitable engine too because the original engine for J31 did not have good life span. then chengdu and shenyang two manufacturers established a jointed committee to co-develop a new engine, which code is still ws15, but was simplified version. last year, a craft body was transportted from shenyang to xian to study how to install new ws15 to J31. as for that J31 flying over shenyang is a smoke grenade.
> View attachment 399765
> View attachment 399766
> 
> ( reasonable explanation is for static loads test， but shenyang has abilities to carry out such test on a such small body )
> 
> 
> there is the fifth type of ws15, the Vector one, however it seems not necessary due to its high trust. except tech research, every one now focus on engine.
> 
> the recent results: the simplified version is ok now, 24ton ws15 is basically fine.
> 
> beliver it or not.
> 
> *http://hongdezk.com/a/linxidiaosou/20170528/94910.html*
> 
> *刀口：打脸要沉住气*
> 
> 2017-05-28 08:14
> 栏目：临溪钓叟
> 
> 我的确一直说是歼二十一开始就装的峨眉涡扇十五的，这个没有错。
> 
> 让我们“再次”庆祝胜利吧！所谓再次，就是每被证实一次，崇洋媚外的跪舔派们就要抵赖一次，那就让我们一次次庆祝，一次次欢呼吧！哈哈哈！
> 
> 大家有时间喝一杯！
> 
> 打小白和跪舔派的脸要沉住气，这次走进中国《匠心》报道里，昆仑赫然出现，记得当年那些跪舔大V们说的吗？“昆仑已死，有事烧纸”，这回报道里有昆仑装配的镜头，你看当年那些小王八蛋们还露头吗？这脸打的PIAPIA的，笑死。
> 
> 2012年有人在天涯发的帖子
> 
> 消息的来源我就不细说了，我爷爷开会回来我问出来的，马上就要公开了，不算什么泄密。
> 大家一直以为ws15是一款发动机，其实不是， ws15一共是四款，我不知道为啥不各自搞个代号，方便区分。这其中的曲折还是很有传奇色彩的。
> 原本 ws15是最大推力15吨，用在歼十上的，结果中间出了一款小插曲，成飞设计了一款新飞机也缺发动机，就想把 ws15改一下，改到貌似是十七吨，但是当时把握不大，就想了个办法两款一起搞，当时口号是保十五争十七。
> 最传奇的就在这，十五吨搞好了，在歼十上试飞了。十七吨型号的也行，但是小问题不少，也是准备放歼十上先试一试。就在这时出了一件神奇的事情，中央的一个小小的企业，搞制造的，搞出了一个新工艺，直接解决了发动机核心的叶片的问题，不但解决了，还大大减轻了发动机的重量，已经不是量变而是质变了。
> 当时就这事内部军工兔开会论证了一阵子，毕竟这玩意谁也没搞过，在某些方面上来说已经是款新概念发动机了。当时论证的结果是可以造出来。这里还有个大问题，航空发动机重了不行，轻了就更不行了，这种新工艺最大的特色就是降低了发动机的重量，如此就必须增加叶片，最后的论证，推力必须增加叶片，把最大推力增加到24吨才能装到新飞机上， 其实就是歼二十上，你没听错，是最大推力最低必须达到24吨。
> 这个论证结果让军工兔顿时蛋疼的厉害，但是没办法还是得造啊。军工兔又开始了 ws15第三个个型号的设计制造，果然没过多久要出来了，其实整体上改的不大，就是叶片加了不少。所以造的倒是挺快，但问题就出在前两款都还没搞好，这款发动机搞出来了，问题大大的有。太先进了也蛋疼。
> 这时候出了一件更奇葩的事情，应该就是沈飞的小二黑31型。也缺发动机。小二黑的个头不大，而且小二黑的发动机军工兔早研究过了，就是寿命不行。这下正好，把两个单位人员合并一下，成立个新的委员会统一指挥，做个简易型号安上去做实验，型号还是叫ws15. 蛋疼！这样就既能验证新概念发动机，又能两款一起实验好快速发现问题，快速定型。于是 ws15出了第四个型号。上次运去的那架粽子机就是拉去研究怎么装发动机的。实验这种简化版的新概念发动机。沈飞那架哥么觉得就是个烟雾弹。
> 其实还有第五款，就是矢量的，但是不准备生产了，因为新发动机不需要矢量技术。只是还在做技术研究，貌似没人对他感兴趣，撂在一边，兔子都忙着新发动机去了。
> 告诉大家一个好消息，这次我爷爷去开会，就是内部定型的会议，简化版的早没啥问题，24吨的也基本都解决了，这次成果汇报会之后应该就定型了。

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Asoka

yusheng said:


> abstract translation:
> Daokou, he insisted that J20 use WS15 long ago just without any solid evidence. and he also pointed out the existence of WS14 Kunlun, now proved.
> 
> another rumor (2012) was:
> 
> there are four types of ws15, the reason why they have same code is unkown.
> the first type ws15 is 15 ton thrust for J10, and at the same time Chengdu aircraft company need a 17 ton engine for her newly designed aircraft, based on ws15, 17ton ws15 appeared, chengdu applied this ws15 on J10 too though there were many small issues on the new engine.
> 
> at the same time, a strange event happened, a small stated owned manufacturer developed a new technological process which can massively decrease the weight of engine by "xxxxxxx turbine blade", such progress could be also regarded as a revolution, and engine made under such tech could be regarded as a new conception engine.
> 
> so, proof analysis were carried out internally, finally military related department reckoned it's feasible, since the new tech can massively decrease the weight of engine, new engine can carry more blades. the result is that J20's ws15 has 24ton thrust.
> 
> not too long, the new 24ton ws15 came out, but with many issues since the 15ton and 17ton were still under development.
> 
> upon the same period, shenyang J31++ is looking for a suitable engine too because the original engine for J31 did not have good life span. then chengdu and shenyang two manufacturers established a jointed committee to co-develop a new engine, which code is still ws15, but was simplified version. last year, a craft body was transportted from shenyang to xian to study how to install new ws15 to J31. as for that J31 flying over shenyang is a smoke grenade.
> View attachment 399765
> View attachment 399766
> 
> ( reasonable explanation is for static loads test， but shenyang has abilities to carry out such test on a such small body )
> 
> 
> there is the fifth type of ws15, the Vector one, however it seems not necessary due to its high trust. except tech research, every one now focus on engine.
> 
> the recent results: the simplified version is ok now, 24ton ws15 is basically fine.
> 
> beliver it or not.
> 
> *http://hongdezk.com/a/linxidiaosou/20170528/94910.html*
> 
> *刀口：打脸要沉住气*
> 
> 2017-05-28 08:14
> 栏目：临溪钓叟
> 
> 我的确一直说是歼二十一开始就装的峨眉涡扇十五的，这个没有错。
> 
> 让我们“再次”庆祝胜利吧！所谓再次，就是每被证实一次，崇洋媚外的跪舔派们就要抵赖一次，那就让我们一次次庆祝，一次次欢呼吧！哈哈哈！
> 
> 大家有时间喝一杯！
> 
> 打小白和跪舔派的脸要沉住气，这次走进中国《匠心》报道里，昆仑赫然出现，记得当年那些跪舔大V们说的吗？“昆仑已死，有事烧纸”，这回报道里有昆仑装配的镜头，你看当年那些小王八蛋们还露头吗？这脸打的PIAPIA的，笑死。
> 
> 2012年有人在天涯发的帖子
> 
> 消息的来源我就不细说了，我爷爷开会回来我问出来的，马上就要公开了，不算什么泄密。
> 大家一直以为ws15是一款发动机，其实不是， ws15一共是四款，我不知道为啥不各自搞个代号，方便区分。这其中的曲折还是很有传奇色彩的。
> 原本 ws15是最大推力15吨，用在歼十上的，结果中间出了一款小插曲，成飞设计了一款新飞机也缺发动机，就想把 ws15改一下，改到貌似是十七吨，但是当时把握不大，就想了个办法两款一起搞，当时口号是保十五争十七。
> 最传奇的就在这，十五吨搞好了，在歼十上试飞了。十七吨型号的也行，但是小问题不少，也是准备放歼十上先试一试。就在这时出了一件神奇的事情，中央的一个小小的企业，搞制造的，搞出了一个新工艺，直接解决了发动机核心的叶片的问题，不但解决了，还大大减轻了发动机的重量，已经不是量变而是质变了。
> 当时就这事内部军工兔开会论证了一阵子，毕竟这玩意谁也没搞过，在某些方面上来说已经是款新概念发动机了。当时论证的结果是可以造出来。这里还有个大问题，航空发动机重了不行，轻了就更不行了，这种新工艺最大的特色就是降低了发动机的重量，如此就必须增加叶片，最后的论证，推力必须增加叶片，把最大推力增加到24吨才能装到新飞机上， 其实就是歼二十上，你没听错，是最大推力最低必须达到24吨。
> 这个论证结果让军工兔顿时蛋疼的厉害，但是没办法还是得造啊。军工兔又开始了 ws15第三个个型号的设计制造，果然没过多久要出来了，其实整体上改的不大，就是叶片加了不少。所以造的倒是挺快，但问题就出在前两款都还没搞好，这款发动机搞出来了，问题大大的有。太先进了也蛋疼。
> 这时候出了一件更奇葩的事情，应该就是沈飞的小二黑31型。也缺发动机。小二黑的个头不大，而且小二黑的发动机军工兔早研究过了，就是寿命不行。这下正好，把两个单位人员合并一下，成立个新的委员会统一指挥，做个简易型号安上去做实验，型号还是叫ws15. 蛋疼！这样就既能验证新概念发动机，又能两款一起实验好快速发现问题，快速定型。于是 ws15出了第四个型号。上次运去的那架粽子机就是拉去研究怎么装发动机的。实验这种简化版的新概念发动机。沈飞那架哥么觉得就是个烟雾弹。
> 其实还有第五款，就是矢量的，但是不准备生产了，因为新发动机不需要矢量技术。只是还在做技术研究，貌似没人对他感兴趣，撂在一边，兔子都忙着新发动机去了。
> 告诉大家一个好消息，这次我爷爷去开会，就是内部定型的会议，简化版的早没啥问题，24吨的也基本都解决了，这次成果汇报会之后应该就定型了。



OMG! OMG! OMG! 

WS-15 is a 24 tons engine for J-20!

While, I am not I sure I about the 24 tons figure, since I don't believe the reasoning that a lighter engine could make a engine lot more powerful, with the same dimensions.

But I do believe the actual maximum thrust of WS-15 is higher than my estimate of 21 ton, or 210kN. In fact, I have always feel 210kN is too low, so I always suggested its +210kN. 

From beginning, I have always been wondering, why all the extraordinary tight secrecy placed around the WS-15 engine. Not one official picture of the complete WS-15 engine has been released, nor the engine type of J-20 has been officially confirmed. 

In fact, Chinese officials in charged, has been deliberately avoided answering this question.

I can only concluded that the Chinese government is hiding something that is absolutely mind-boggling. They want to keep WS-15 under wrap as long as possible, so as not to alarm other countries, unduly.

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## Blue Marlin

Asok said:


> OMG! OMG! OMG!
> 
> WS-15 is a 24 tons engine for J-20!
> 
> While, I am not I sure I about the 24 tons figure, since I don't believe the reasoning that a lighter engine could make a engine lot more powerful, with the same dimensions.
> 
> But I do believe the actual maximum thrust of WS-15 is higher than my estimate of 21 ton, or 210kN. In fact, I have always feel 210kN is too low, so I always suggested its +210kN.
> 
> From beginning, I have always been wondering, why all the extraordinary tight secrecy placed around the WS-15 engine. Not one official picture of the complete WS-15 engine has been released, nor the engine type of J-20 has been officially confirmed.
> 
> In fact, Chinese officials in charged, has been deliberately avoided answering this question.
> 
> I can only concluded that the Chinese government is hiding something that is absolutely mind-boggling. They want to keep WS-15 under wrap as long as possible, so as not to alarm other countries, unduly.


24 tonnes is too much for a single engine, i assume its a variant with a high bypass ratio for the y-20.


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## Deino

yusheng said:


> abstract translation:
> Daokou, he insisted that J20 use WS15 long ago just without any solid evidence. and he also pointed out the existence of WS14 Kunlun, now proved.
> 
> another rumor (2012) was:
> 
> there are four types of ws15, the reason why they have same code is unkown.
> the first type ws15 is 15 ton thrust for J10, and at the same time Chengdu aircraft company need a 17 ton engine for her newly designed aircraft, based on ws15, 17ton ws15 appeared, chengdu applied this ws15 on J10 too though there were many small issues on the new engine.
> 
> at the same time, a strange event happened, a small stated owned manufacturer developed a new technological process which can massively decrease the weight of engine by "xxxxxxx turbine blade", such progress could be also regarded as a revolution, and engine made under such tech could be regarded as a new conception engine.
> 
> so, proof analysis were carried out internally, finally military related department reckoned it's feasible, since the new tech can massively decrease the weight of engine, new engine can carry more blades. the result is that J20's ws15 has 24ton thrust.
> 
> not too long, the new 24ton ws15 came out, but with many issues since the 15ton and 17ton were still under development.
> 
> upon the same period, shenyang J31++ is looking for a suitable engine too because the original engine for J31 did not have good life span. then chengdu and shenyang two manufacturers established a jointed committee to co-develop a new engine, which code is still ws15, but was simplified version. last year, a craft body was transportted from shenyang to xian to study how to install new ws15 to J31. as for that J31 flying over shenyang is a smoke grenade.
> View attachment 399765
> View attachment 399766
> 
> ( reasonable explanation is for static loads test， but shenyang has abilities to carry out such test on a such small body )
> 
> 
> there is the fifth type of ws15, the Vector one, however it seems not necessary due to its high trust. except tech research, every one now focus on engine.
> 
> the recent results: the simplified version is ok now, 24ton ws15 is basically fine.
> 
> beliver it or not.
> 
> *http://hongdezk.com/a/linxidiaosou/20170528/94910.html*
> 
> *刀口：打脸要沉住气*
> 
> 2017-05-28 08:14
> 栏目：临溪钓叟
> 
> 我的确一直说是歼二十一开始就装的峨眉涡扇十五的，这个没有错。
> 
> 让我们“再次”庆祝胜利吧！所谓再次，就是每被证实一次，崇洋媚外的跪舔派们就要抵赖一次，那就让我们一次次庆祝，一次次欢呼吧！哈哈哈！
> 
> 大家有时间喝一杯！
> 
> 打小白和跪舔派的脸要沉住气，这次走进中国《匠心》报道里，昆仑赫然出现，记得当年那些跪舔大V们说的吗？“昆仑已死，有事烧纸”，这回报道里有昆仑装配的镜头，你看当年那些小王八蛋们还露头吗？这脸打的PIAPIA的，笑死。
> 
> 2012年有人在天涯发的帖子
> 
> 消息的来源我就不细说了，我爷爷开会回来我问出来的，马上就要公开了，不算什么泄密。
> 大家一直以为ws15是一款发动机，其实不是， ws15一共是四款，我不知道为啥不各自搞个代号，方便区分。这其中的曲折还是很有传奇色彩的。
> 原本 ws15是最大推力15吨，用在歼十上的，结果中间出了一款小插曲，成飞设计了一款新飞机也缺发动机，就想把 ws15改一下，改到貌似是十七吨，但是当时把握不大，就想了个办法两款一起搞，当时口号是保十五争十七。
> 最传奇的就在这，十五吨搞好了，在歼十上试飞了。十七吨型号的也行，但是小问题不少，也是准备放歼十上先试一试。就在这时出了一件神奇的事情，中央的一个小小的企业，搞制造的，搞出了一个新工艺，直接解决了发动机核心的叶片的问题，不但解决了，还大大减轻了发动机的重量，已经不是量变而是质变了。
> 当时就这事内部军工兔开会论证了一阵子，毕竟这玩意谁也没搞过，在某些方面上来说已经是款新概念发动机了。当时论证的结果是可以造出来。这里还有个大问题，航空发动机重了不行，轻了就更不行了，这种新工艺最大的特色就是降低了发动机的重量，如此就必须增加叶片，最后的论证，推力必须增加叶片，把最大推力增加到24吨才能装到新飞机上， 其实就是歼二十上，你没听错，是最大推力最低必须达到24吨。
> 这个论证结果让军工兔顿时蛋疼的厉害，但是没办法还是得造啊。军工兔又开始了 ws15第三个个型号的设计制造，果然没过多久要出来了，其实整体上改的不大，就是叶片加了不少。所以造的倒是挺快，但问题就出在前两款都还没搞好，这款发动机搞出来了，问题大大的有。太先进了也蛋疼。
> 这时候出了一件更奇葩的事情，应该就是沈飞的小二黑31型。也缺发动机。小二黑的个头不大，而且小二黑的发动机军工兔早研究过了，就是寿命不行。这下正好，把两个单位人员合并一下，成立个新的委员会统一指挥，做个简易型号安上去做实验，型号还是叫ws15. 蛋疼！这样就既能验证新概念发动机，又能两款一起实验好快速发现问题，快速定型。于是 ws15出了第四个型号。上次运去的那架粽子机就是拉去研究怎么装发动机的。实验这种简化版的新概念发动机。沈飞那架哥么觉得就是个烟雾弹。
> 其实还有第五款，就是矢量的，但是不准备生产了，因为新发动机不需要矢量技术。只是还在做技术研究，貌似没人对他感兴趣，撂在一边，兔子都忙着新发动机去了。
> 告诉大家一个好消息，这次我爷爷去开会，就是内部定型的会议，简化版的早没啥问题，24吨的也基本都解决了，这次成果汇报会之后应该就定型了。




Sorry guys ! ... and You believe this BS without any scepticism ??? 

Installing a WS-15 into the FC-31V2  ... having four different WS-15 engines each more powerfull than any other engine so far available worldwide  ... WS-15 with 24t of thrust ! Sorry, but I am out, that's too much after this heavy weekend. 

Deino

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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Sorry guys ! ... and You believe this BS without any scepticism ???
> 
> Installing a WS-15 into the FC-31V2  ... having four different WS-15 engines each more powerfull than any other engine so far available worldwide  ... WS-15 with 24t of thrust ! Sorry, but I am out, that's too much after this heavy weekend.
> 
> Deino


This should be considered as a disgusting reply on a serious discussion for ordinary members let alone a moderator, pathetic cheap shot indeed

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## Deino

To believe the WS-15 is already operational and delivering 24t of thrust is no longer a serious discussion.

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## yusheng

grey boy 2 said:


> This should be considered as a disgusting reply on a serious discussion for ordinary members let alone a moderator, pathetic cheap shot indeed



its ok, i understand his position to suspect us and ask us to provide more information.
however, we are good at amusing them, then later astonishing them.

battle aircraft engine is top secret, even the codes or names of engine are not told in public, that why there are so many confusions among us.

i only gave a happy time. if you like i can translate more rumor making you laugh. maybe Deino will be "unhappy" since he wants serious discussion here.



wanglaokan said:


> 我觉得18吨很牛了，24吨的话要多大函道比啊？


注意：
文中“革命性的”“型概念”
有种说法，因为技术，制作工艺，设计能力的进步，中国已经对传统喷气发动机进项了根本性改进。
不要用原来的思路去考虑问题。
容后再叙

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## Han Patriot

grey boy 2 said:


> This should be considered as a disgusting reply on a serious discussion for ordinary members let alone a moderator, pathetic cheap shot indeed


Guys, i have to agree. It's just rumors. I hope we don't jump and shout supapowa like our indic brethren. One thing for sure now is we know J-20 is using chinky engine, next find out the designation and capability of that engine.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Guys, i have to agree. It's just rumors. I hope we don't jump and shout supapowa like our indic brethren. One thing for sure now is we know J-20 is using chinky engine, next find out the designation and capability of that engine.


What is sure that WS15 at least have 18 tons of max thrust.

@Beast man, why you say the engine with Al31FN nozzle on J10c is WS10?

We all know there are four J10b fit WS10x, the nozzle is silver and short same as the common WS10 engine. How you explain it, thanks.

I strongly belivd now J20 uses domestic engine no matter be it WS10b or WS15. I still skeptical when people claim the engine on J10c is not Russian's, we lacks enough proof.

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## 帅的一匹

yusheng said:


> its ok, i understand his position to suspect us and ask us to provide more information.
> however, we are good at amusing them, then later astonishing them.
> 
> battle aircraft engine is top secret, even the codes or names of engine are not told in public, that why there are so many confusions among us.
> 
> i only gave a happy time. if you like i can translate more rumor making you laugh. maybe Deino will be "unhappy" since he wants serious discussion here.
> 
> 
> 注意：
> 文中“革命性的”“型概念”
> 有种说法，因为技术，制作工艺，设计能力的进步，中国已经对传统喷气发动机进项了根本性改进。
> 不要用原来的思路去考虑问题。
> 容后再叙


Man per your logic, the current engine on FC31 V2 is a mini WS15 rather than some WS13E right?

And I also believe China can partially produce AL31F by reverse engineering.

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## yusheng

wanglaokan said:


> Man per your logic, the current engine on FC31 V2 is a mini WS15 rather than some WS13E right?
> 
> And I also believe China can partially produce AL31F by reverse engineering.



when new one appears, the old new is going to retire.
if i say F110=CFM56=LM2500, you will not agree, but look at the picture below,





so, why not J31 too use WS15?

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## 帅的一匹

yusheng said:


> when new one appears, the old new is going to retire.
> if i say F110=CFM56=LM2500, you will not agree, but look at the picture below,
> View attachment 399824
> 
> so, why not J31 too use WS15?


WS10's core is referring to CFM56. Do you know what exactly is the engine installed in J10c? Please she's us some light.


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## samsara

yusheng said:


> its ok, i understand his position to suspect us and ask us to provide more information.
> however, we are good at amusing them, then later astonishing them.
> 
> *battle aircraft engine is top secret, even the codes or names of engine are not told in public, that why there are so many confusions among us.*
> 
> i only gave a happy time. if you like i can translate more rumor making you laugh. maybe Deino will be "unhappy" since he wants serious discussion here.
> 
> 
> 注意：
> 文中“革命性的”“型概念”
> 有种说法，因为技术，制作工艺，设计能力的进步，中国已经对传统喷气发动机进项了根本性改进。
> 不要用原来的思路去考虑问题。
> 容后再叙





Han Patriot said:


> Guys, i have to agree. It's just rumors. I hope we don't jump and shout supapowa like our indic brethren. One thing for sure now is we know J-20 is using chinky engine, *next find out the designation and capability of that engine*.


He he he... really don't think it's wise or serve _*any net positive value*_ for China to disclose more its true power of the *innermost segments* (disadvantage is more certain), something _*so strategic*_ like one of the ace cards in arsenal, the J-20. All the little, indirect divulgence is sufficient to just give some little hint. Just let it be in the "rumor status" for many more years to come! Let the unseen/unknown remain be unseen/unknown (what to show by naked oneself)... something like all the submarines, missile etc matters, just let the clearly visible stuffs like CV etc convey the very message. As about "faith" matter, it is not something to concern at all. In real situation, the "surprise" factor plays an advantageous position. Let the Pentagon and the Japanese resources guess and figure, analyze by themselves  they need to work much harder to get the correct piece, if ever!

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## Keel

How good are we or how far are we from making world class aviation engines?
The following may or may not have been reported on PDF:


*City banks on high-end manufacturing*
* Updated: 2016-06-10 08:35*
*By Wang Hongyi (China Daily Europe)*


Faced with new challenges brought about by a slowing economy, Wuxi, Jiangsu province, is looking for new opportunities to boost the city's overall growth.

One major strategy is to develop its high-end manufacturing industry. *Wuxi Turbine Blade*, a State-owned enterprise founded in 1979, is one company leading the way with its development of engine turbines and aircraft parts.

Once a vital manufacturer of steam turbines in China, the company is currently a high-end engine parts supplier in the aviation and energy industries.








*A production line at Wuxi Turbine Blade in Wuxi. Provided to China Daily*

Since 2008, the company has produced engine turbine blades for aircraft. In 2011, its new blade production line entered the China market with output exceeding 1 billion yuan ($151 million).

"In recent years, Wuxi Turbine Blade adjusted its development strategy to become a bigger player in the aviation industry. We have gained a lot of experience in the production of new materials and research of new technologies," said the company's manager Gu Linhua.

In 2012, the company achieved a breakthrough in the production of aviation engine blades and the 35,500-metric-ton screw press, part of a 2 billion yuan large blades manufacturing and forgings project.

Two other key areas in its transformation have been increasing its global competitiveness and developing its overseas aviation businesses.

In 2015, its overseas business reached $70 million in revenue, accounting for 43 percent of total revenue. That is a growth of 6 percent from the previous year.​







Energy contracts comprised $60 million of its overseas business, with $10 million for aviation contracts.

*Rolls-Royce, a global manufacturer of aviation engine parts, signed a 10-year contract with Wuxi Turbine Blade in 2015. Other clients include L&T, PSM, GE and Siemens. The company has also expanded its business to the Middle East.*

The company said it wants its overseas businesses to drum up 50 percent of total company revenue by 2017.

*Hyatech* is another example of Wuxi's private enterprises steering toward high-end manufacturing.

The company manufactures aircraft engine compressor blades as well as artificial joints for medical orthopedic instruments using in-house machinery and production lines.

Established in 2013, Hyatech's technologies and know-how are among the most advanced in the industry, the company claimed.

*In 2015, the company's R&D and production project to produce blisks, a major rotor disk and blade for aircraft, went into operation, marking a turning point for the city as it looks to transform into a high-end manufacturing hub, said Hyatech.*

A blisk can make the engine lighter by 20 to 30 percent, with efficiency improved by 5 to 10 percent.

Yan Qi, chairman of the company, said overseas countries have already used the company's blisk technologies in component structural designs of military and civil aircraft.

"In China, the blisk's technology, from design, manufacturing and testing, is still at an early stage," Yan said. "But with China's advances in civilian planes, jet engines and gas turbines, the Asia-Pacific region is becoming a new center for the global aircraft industry," Yan said.

Hyatech said it plans to invest 40 million yuan in the second phase of the blisk project and introduce a number of machines and facilities.

The company aims to produce 300 blisks with different specifications by 2019 and to become an R&D and production platform for the aircraft industry.

wanghongyi@chinadaily.com.cn

*Highlights*

Wuxi, Jiangsu province, aims to become a leader in intelligent manufacturing, the service sector and the green economy.

Smart manufacturing will be the main direction in the city's development of high-end manufacturing.

The city is promoting the development of manufacturing technologies, manufacturing processes and enterprise management.

The city is also exploring sustainable development and implementing a more environmentally safe manufacturing industry. It is encouraging energy intensive industries, such as the steel, chemical, textiles and building materials sectors to improve their equipment, advance technological processes, and establish online platforms to monitor energy consumption.

Emissions of major industrial pollutants will drop by 10 percent by 2020, it said.

( China Daily European Weekly 06/10/2016 page29)

http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2016-06/10/content_25663987.htm

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## Han Patriot

Hyatech is making parts for those LEAP engine. FKKKKKK!!!
WuXi blade export parts to RR too....OMG. I knew they were selling turbine blades to BHEL, saw it on their inventory box in one documentary, didn't know they sell to Larsen & Toubro too. This is gonna piss off our Indy frens.

Bro, this HYATECH is private and watch the intro video, their production facilities looks awesome and the speech by their founder.

Guys, they are saying they are making CFM-56, LEAP, CF-34 compressor blades. Nobody knows about them because all info is in Chinese. This is crazy, how did I miss out this company. After seeing this, I am very sure we can make the best engines on earth. See the intro video.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Hyatech is making parts for those LEAP engine. FKKKKKK!!!
> WuXi blade export parts to RR too....OMG. I knew they were selling turbine blades to BHEL, saw it on their inventory box in one documentary, didn't know they sell to Larsen & Toubro too. This is gonna piss off our Indy frens.
> 
> Bro, this HYATECH is private and watch the intro video, their production facilities looks awesome and the speech by their founder.
> 
> Guys, they are saying they are making CFM-56, LEAP, CF-34 compressor blades. Nobody knows about them because all info is in Chinese. This is crazy, how did I miss out this company. After seeing this, I am very sure we can make the best engines on earth. See the intro video.


Some Pakistani members said we are Alien when it comes to technical progress.

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## Han Patriot

Fake Pakistanis bro. Pakistanis will never say such things. They were some of the earliest to try out Chinese technology, I really hope CPEC can revitalize their economy and modernize them to be a rival to India, they have so much potential.

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## yusheng

wanglaokan said:


> WS10's core is referring to CFM56. Do you know what exactly is the engine installed in J10c? Please she's us some light.



i am afraid that i can not tell you because i don't know either.
but as Chinese characteristics, we will try any possible way to improve combat abilities, J10 is not exception.

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> But then WS-15 would not be a single powerplant as the WS-10 or the EJ-200, M.88 or F119, but a "project" to develop certain propulsion technologies with the higher aim to develop a high-thrust powerplant for fighters and a miniaturized version for medium weight types, a high-bypass turbofans for civil airliner, this exotic combined-cycle hypersonic engine and maybe even a STOVL-version. But shouldn't this then have a project-designation similar to the Project 718 (aka J-20), Project 998 (for the KJ-2000) than a simple "WoShan" = Turbofan-number ??
> 
> Deino


Maybe there will be a unified code name from now on under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) which was formed last year. Before, there were more than 20 engine companies, many instituetes and aeroengine-repairing factories competing with each other for their own interest. As they were used to be answering to different authorities structually, to survive they had to compete to get aero engine projects and became less cooperative to each other. Perhaps that is why we see many engines all can be called/related to "WS-15" from different companies.














That Guy said:


> I chose to comment this time, because I constantly see members here acting in quite a hostile fashion towards people such as @Deino and @gambit


But is it OK to you for this "American" constantly calling "your internet chinese"?

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## Deino



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## Beast

Notice in the last min of the video, he mention the domestic build engine has an increase of thrust of 50% compare to its predecessor of F-7P. F-7P used WP-13 engine which has a dry thrust of 44kN and after burner of 64kN.

*Powerplant:* 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet

*Dry thrust:* 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
*Thrust with afterburner:* 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)
If a 50% increase will mean 66kN dry thrust, While after burner is may close to 90kN.

We have seen the CCTV documentary of Shenyang Liming making WP-14 kunlun engine which a project never abandon like many think recently. And its likely equipped plane is JL-9G. J-8F production line has ended. It is very unlikely they are continue such powerful engine for a discontinued plane. JL-9G do not equipped with a obsolete engine like WP-13. It is equipped with powerful WP-14 Kunlun engine and its 50% more powerful than previous engine.







The video also mention it is precisely the powerful domestic engine that enable JL-9G to perform very well in flight. I think precisely the good performance and low maintenance of JL-9G that enable it to be accepted as one of the main advance trainer of PLAAF. Same as the reason why Sudan buys this plane for its AF. Such powerful engine may even enable to cruise at near Mach 1 speed. Excellent thrust to weight ratio. JL-9G is a plane not to belittle.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Which means WS10 will never fit on J10 in volume right?




I don't think so and consequently I'm eagerly awaiting any images of the next batch.

Concerning that hybrid-WS-10/AL-31-look alike ... there's plain and simple no proof (but I will never argue with the fans of this theory). Like I said so often, You cannot mate a certain core of engine A + the nozzle of engine B. Each part has to be designed and optimised specificly. therefore each engine esp. from different manufacturers is different, regardless what some say.

Deino


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> I don't think so and consequently I'm eagerly awaiting any images of the next batch.
> 
> Concerning that hybrid-WS-10/AL-31-look alike ... there's plain and simple no proof (but I will never argue with the fans of this theory). Like I said so often, You cannot mate a certain core of engine A + the nozzle of engine B. Each part has to be designed and optimised specificly. therefore each engine esp. from different manufacturers is different, regardless what some say.
> 
> Deino


I never believe the WS10 core with Al31 Petal story, that's why I want to confirm with rcrmj. Is it because Russia had TOT Al31FN to China, or let's put in another way, China had reverse engineered the Al31.

Or maybe China inducted thousands of AL31FN?



Beast said:


> J-10B/C do not used AL-31FN engine. There are domestic made uprated hybrid engine that only external looks like AL-31FN.
> 
> AL-31FN engine cannot give the kind of 145kN > thrust required by PLAAF. Russian has no means to uprate the engine to help China project. There are basically the same engine used on J-20.


What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> I never believe the WS10 core with Al31 Petal story, that's why I want to confirm with rcrmj. Is it because Russia had TOT Al31FN to China, or let's put in another way, China had reverse engineered the Al31.
> 
> Or maybe China inducted thousands of AL31FN?



To admit I'm still not sure but from all i know there seems to be indeed the capability in line with the J-20's engine to manufacture all or maybe all important parts of the AL-31FN locally. I MO it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished by reverse-engineering, as such I expect indeed some sort of ToT, if not a licenced co-development of an uprated engine.



> What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?



Surely only to fool such AL-31FN-supporters like me


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## 帅的一匹

If WS10b with silver nozzle can produce more than 145KN thrust, then why we need Al31FN petals?



Deino said:


> To admit I'm still not sure but from all i know there seems to be indeed the capability in line with the J-20's engine to manufacture all or maybe all important parts of the AL-31FN locally. I MO it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished by reverse-engineering, as such I expect indeed some sort of ToT, if not a licenced co-development of an uprated engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely onyl to fool such AL-31FN-supporters like me


I think those AL31FN are bought off the shelf from Russia, that's it.

I'm a pessimistic.

Is there any possibility Saturn joint manufacture Al31FN in China for J10b/c?

As we have mammoth market to fulfill.

I prefer to believe what rcrmj told me.

there are also rumors that CAC is a big fan of Russian Al31FN, they don't like SAC's WS10 series.

Also I think it's related to the production capacity of WS10 engine.

Still need patience to wait.

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> J-10B/C do not used AL-31FN engine. There are domestic made uprated hybrid engine that only external looks like AL-31FN.
> 
> AL-31FN engine cannot give the kind of 145kN > thrust required by PLAAF. Russian has no means to uprate the engine to help China project. There are basically the same engine used on J-20.


no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs


Why we don't fit WS10G on J10c? Production capacity?

Said WS10b flying with J20 has 145KN plus max thrust? Someone claim its 155KN.

So many ?????in my head

@rcrmj please help out

Beg you please


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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> Why we don't fit WS10G on J10c? Production capacity?
> 
> Said WS10b flying with J20 has 145KN plus max thrust? Someone claim its 155KN.
> 
> So many ?????in my head
> 
> @rcrmj please help out
> 
> Beg you please


I'd be a top brass if I'd know all of these infos`````well, I dont want say or predict on things that I have no clue`````so, everything is according to plan, please be patient```

and on this planet and at this very period US is the only benchmark of our defense technological advancement````Russia, Europ and Israel are all past tense

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## Beast

rcrmj said:


> no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs


No, the J-10B/C has different thrust requirement since it's single engine. Same as J-15B which require more thrust to allow higher take off payload unlike J-16, J-11B which do not require such powerful engine since they do not require to take off from carrier. Russian AL-31F engine cannot satisfy Chinese engine thrust requirement plus Russian has already stated they will not sell more high thrust engine to China and it need to tie with the whole package deal of Su-35. There is a reason why we have the su-35 saga which drag so long and only ink on early 2016. The waiting of Russian engine will be too long for any usage in PLAAF. 

And now you claim it's Russian AL-31F engine which is no logic.

China aviation realize the need for competition between engines in order for China engine industries to prosperous. They allow to different engine project to run together and compete with each other. Competition will spur creativity and productivity.

Domestic made AL-31F hybrid and WS-10 engine compete against each other. J-10B/C can never fly with Russian engine. Becos it do not satisfy PLAAF requirements.

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> No, the J-10B/C has different thrust requirement since it's single engine. Same as J-15B which require more thrust to allow higher take off payload unlike J-16, J-11B which do not require such powerful engine since they do not require to take off from carrier. Russian AL-31F engine cannot satisfy Chinese engine thrust requirement plus Russian has already stated they will not sell more high thrust engine to China and it need to tie with the whole package deal of Su-35. There is a reason why we have the su-35 saga which drag so long and only ink on early 2016. The waiting of Russian engine will be too long for any usage in PLAAF.
> 
> And now you claim it's Russian AL-31F engine which is no logic.
> 
> China aviation realize the need for competition between engines in order for China engine industries to prosperous. They allow to different engine project to run together and compete with each other. Competition will spur creativity and productivity.
> 
> Domestic made AL-31F hybrid and WS-10 engine compete against each other. J-10B/C can never fly with Russian engine. Becos it do not satisfy PLAAF requirements.


you cant argue with facts and reality, there is no such imaginary WS engines used on J-10B/C or J-15s``and your 'needing more thrust' for B/C or J-15 is cute``but do you have the detailed calculation of 'how much' more trust does B/C or J-15 need in order to be able to 'fly'? and why they 'need' that 'extra'?

the landskape of China's turbofan engine industry is not what you have pictured in your mind with rumors```we dont have such 'luxury' like the U.S to have two sets of projects to compete with one tender especially in turbofan industry!

and as I said long before and the fact about importing Su-35 is far from what you can pin on the 'engine issue'! 你以为35上面的飞、火、推就真的那么厉害么？ 土鳖早就做到飞、火、推、*控*一体化的技术了，全球目前独此一家，而且是真正的一体化！

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## Beast

rcrmj said:


> you cant argue with facts and reality, there is no such imaginary WS engines used on J-10B/C or J-15s``and your 'needing more thrust' for B/C or J-15 is cute``but do you have the detailed calculation of 'how much' more trust does B/C or J-15 need in order to be able to 'fly'? and why they 'need' that 'extra'?
> 
> the landskape of China's turbofan engine industry is not what you have pictured in your mind with rumors```we dont have such 'luxury' like the U.S to have two sets of projects to compete with one tender especially in turbofan industry!
> 
> and as I said long before and the fact about importing Su-35 is far from what you can pin on the 'engine issue'! 你以为35上面的飞、火、推就真的那么厉害么？ 土鳖早就做到飞、火、推、*控*一体化的技术了，全球目前独此一家，而且是真正的一体化！


Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.

Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?

If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.

Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.

If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.

China definitely has a lot of luxury of having multiple project to improve, even the so called mysterious WS-14 kunlun engine which thought to be cancel, is still exist and probably equipped in large number for PLAAF JL-9 advanced trainer. It's thrust Level is 50% more than its predecessor. Quite an achievement.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.
> 
> Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?
> 
> If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.
> 
> Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.
> 
> If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
> China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.


The problem is that China can't produce the core of Al31, and we also not interested in doing so.being patience, its production scale problem.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> The problem is that China can't produce the core of Al31, and we also not interested in doing so.being patience, its production scale problem.


The core is fan blade. I think I do not need to explain further. If you see the recently documentary of shenyang liming factory talking abt the 2 technician. The most difficult parts to
produced is the fan blade which need to withstand the extreme high temp inside the engine while still need to repeatly function well.

You like it or. not , the engine on J-20 is local assemble and manufacture engine. Then why such engine cannot be apply on J-15 or J-10b/c Al-31FN since the engine seems to share similar dimension?

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.
> 
> Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?
> 
> If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.
> 
> Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.
> 
> If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
> China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.


如果你真的要说常识，那么你这些所谓的‘theory’根本站不住脚，圈内的人根本不会像你一样考虑问题的。什么推力高了一点就可以超巡，什么筷B和中秋上了太行那么飞鲨跟棍B也一定要上太行·····我问你，如果土鳖上千架的3代跟3代半机都要等着刚刚成熟的太行（也就近两年），就它那一两条生产线能搞到猴年马月？你知道现在军队的压力有多大么？你知道90年开始到几年前空军和海军怎么被美帝调戏跟侮辱的么？这些耻辱的事情你到底了解多少？每一年跑废掉的发动机有多少要补上的你知道么？

棍B的研发不是为了要对付某一种或者两种鸡鸡，它需求来自于PLAAF战略和战术上面的需求，国土防空的需求，技术能力的需求跟经济实力的需求。还有不要说双风能超巡的事情了，太不专业了。四代机的超巡跟它们的偶尔超巡，或者加力超巡根本是两回事情，西方媒体拿这些来吸引眼球打广告，你就不要听风就是雨的瞎起哄了。照你这么说我们现在的J-10A也可以超巡，而且还不慢。还有对于真正的超巡，推力只是一部分，而且不是最重要的一部分，气动设计才是知道么。肥电的推力吓得惊人，但是由于它发动机涵道比和气动的原因，它是超巡不起来的，超音速飞行都困难，就是起来效率也低！

再讲到滑跃的J-15，它现在就用31系列的，而且起降性能真的不赖，没比弹射的超虫差多少···载7吨多的弹药在前点起飞一点问题都没有，9吨的都飞过！（7吨多的有效载荷可以有效完成很多不同任务了）一架飞机在航母上起降的效率跟很多指标有关，推力只是一种（特别对于滑跃来讲），比如说上扬角，风俗，航速，加速等等的都有关系。更何况J-15以后主要会在弹射航母上服役，推力的要素更加的缓解了（不是说不重要）····所以你这个论点也站不住脚！

俄罗斯（苏联）的材料不行，我们的就行了？十几年前我们就是一片空白，人家搞了50年的材料学和材料冶金工业你觉得以土鳖国企那种尿性能十几年赶上去么？你知道冶金行业是被国企长期垄断的，他们不像国家重点军工企业，上面有明确的指标压着的，关系到国家安全，所以在航空、航天和舰船领域会有很好的发展（但是之间出了很多狗血的事情，绊倒一大批老顽固的事情就不说了）。

但是造一架飞机跟发动机是一个国家的整体工业实力的体现，冶金和机械精密制造往往是我们最弱的，我们跟美帝最大的差距也就在这里。我可以这么跟你说，就算现在米帝把F-119的全套图纸拿过来，我们做出来的F-119也根本达不到他们10年前的指标跟性能！我们在材料的耐久度，部件的紧合度上面差距还很大。前线的朋友经常吐槽，飞着飞着就掉东西了，拆开一看这个裂了那个断了··········所以我们有现在这样的成绩实属不易，庆幸的是会越来越好，体制内的大力改革，再加上有大量的民营企业做的零部件被采用（通过各种渠道进口的西方部件也很多！）··我们的雷达，光电，感应为什么会发展的那么好是有原因的。

作为军迷想自己国家好无可厚非，积极乐观的态度也很好。但是现实不是我们一厢情愿的，就像我以前说过，土鳖现在的军工没有像有些人想象的那么不堪，也不像有些人意淫的那样好！我们有些好的绝对世界领先，但是落后的还是有很多，更多的是以前拉下来的东西，现在都在恶补当中！

还有最后我想再说一下棍B/C或者目前的J-15都是用31系列的，别再意淫WS了····以后有可能会上WS，但绝对不会是现在这些服役了的！

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> 如果你真的要说常识，那么你这些所谓的‘theory’根本站不住脚，圈内的人根本不会像你一样考虑问题的。什么推力高了一点就可以超巡，什么筷B和中秋上了太行那么飞鲨跟棍B也一定要上太行·····我问你，如果土鳖上千架的3代跟3代半机都要等着刚刚成熟的太行（也就近两年），就它那一两条生产线能搞到猴年马月？你知道现在军队的压力有多大么？你知道90年开始到几年前空军和海军怎么被美帝调戏跟侮辱的么？这些耻辱的事情你到底了解多少？每一年跑废掉的发动机有多少要补上的你知道么？
> 
> 棍B的研发不是为了要对付某一种或者两种鸡鸡，它需求来自于PLAAF战略和战术上面的需求，国土防空的需求，技术能力的需求跟经济实力的需求。还有不要说双风能超巡的事情了，太不专业了。四代机的超巡跟它们的偶尔超巡，或者加力超巡根本是两回事情，西方媒体拿这些来吸引眼球打广告，你就不要听风就是雨的瞎起哄了。照你这么说我们现在的J-10A也可以超巡，而且还不慢。还有对于真正的超巡，推力只是一部分，而且不是最重要的一部分，气动设计才是知道么。肥电的推力吓得惊人，但是由于它发动机涵道比和气动的原因，它是超巡不起来的，超音速飞行都困难，就是起来效率也低！
> 
> 再讲到滑跃的J-15，它现在就用31系列的，而且起降性能真的不赖，没比弹射的超虫差多少···载7吨多的弹药在前点起飞一点问题都没有，9吨的都飞过！（7吨多的有效载荷可以有效完成很多不同任务了）一架飞机在航母上起降的效率跟很多指标有关，推力只是一种（特别对于滑跃来讲），比如说上扬角，风俗，航速，加速等等的都有关系。更何况J-15以后主要会在弹射航母上服役，推力的要素更加的缓解了（不是说不重要）····所以你这个论点也站不住脚！
> 
> 俄罗斯（苏联）的材料不行，我们的就行了？十几年前我们就是一片空白，人家搞了50年的材料学和材料冶金工业你觉得以土鳖国企那种尿性能十几年赶上去么？你知道冶金行业是被国企长期垄断的，他们不像国家重点军工企业，上面有明确的指标压着的，关系到国家安全，所以在航空、航天和舰船领域会有很好的发展（但是之间出了很多狗血的事情，绊倒一大批老顽固的事情就不说了）。
> 
> 但是造一架飞机跟发动机是一个国家的整体工业实力的体现，冶金和机械精密制造往往是我们最弱的，我们跟美帝最大的差距也就在这里。我可以这么跟你说，就算现在米帝把F-119的全套图纸拿过来，我们做出来的F-119也根本达不到他们10年前的指标跟性能！我们在材料的耐久度，部件的紧合度上面差距还很大。前线的朋友经常吐槽，飞着飞着就掉东西了，拆开一看这个裂了那个断了··········所以我们有现在这样的成绩实属不易，庆幸的是会越来越好，体制内的大力改革，再加上有大量的民营企业做的零部件被采用（通过各种渠道进口的西方部件也很多！）··我们的雷达，光电，感应为什么会发展的那么好是有原因的。
> 
> 作为军迷想自己国家好无可厚非，积极乐观的态度也很好。但是现实不是我们一厢情愿的，就像我以前说过，土鳖现在的军工没有像有些人想象的那么不堪，也不像有些人意淫的那样好！我们有些好的绝对世界领先，但是落后的还是有很多，更多的是以前拉下来的东西，现在都在恶补当中！
> 
> 还有最后我想再说一下棍B/C或者目前的J-15都是用31系列的，别再意淫WS了····以后有可能会上WS，但绝对不会是现在这些服役了的！


模子！老卵！big fan of you.....

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> The core is fan blade. I think I do not need to explain further. If you see the recently documentary of shenyang liming factory talking abt the 2 technician. The most difficult parts to
> produced is the fan blade which need to withstand the extreme high temp inside the engine while still need to repeatly function well.
> 
> You like it or. not , the engine on J-20 is local assemble and manufacture engine. Then why such engine cannot be apply on J-15 or J-10b/c Al-31FN since the engine seems to share similar dimension?


Turbofan and fighter jet is not LEGO toys that you can add bits and bots as you wish! changing the core is pretty much redesigning the whole```

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> Now is not a matter of what u claim. Fact is J-20 engine is domestic made and assemble at shenyang liming. Are u going to deny it?


It was me who said J-20 is using a hybird engine, are you asking me to debunk myself````? 
I only stated, on previous posts, that the current J-10B/C and J-15s are using 31 engines```````there is no contradiction on that

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## Beast

rcrmj said:


> It was me who said J-20 is using a hybird engine, are you asking me to debunk myself````?
> I only stated, on previous posts, that the current J-10B/C and J-15s are using 31 engines```````there is no contradiction on that


But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?

Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?
> 
> Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?


gosh``read my lengthy Chinese post again````````````why USAAF arent using F-119 on F-16/15????

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## Beast

rcrmj said:


> gosh``read my lengthy Chinese post again````````````why USAAF arent using F-119 on F-16/15????


I never say J-20 engine currently is WS-15. I am saying he engine on J-20 is hybrid of AL-31F design but with 100 percent made in China. 

Your analogy is failed. Becos F119 is essential a new engine compare to F100. 

And you are giving too many credit to Russian. Many of their glory is credit education to Soviet Union. Let me ask you, who had better destroyer with AESA radar? China or Russia? Not to mention. The Russian has many fanciful on drawing board but none are going to materialize. What happen to the aircraft carrier they boast they are going to build? Not even the screw is seen.

Russia now is pale shadow of the Soviet Union. Their so called T-50 is still not progressing any further due to the trouble engine.

Let me ask you how many fan blade petal has Russia supplied to GE or PW? Zero, their manufacturing industries level is simply not good to be accepted.
While China has been steady supplier for these well established engine maker for years.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?
> 
> Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?



You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.

The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.


By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).

Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:

The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".

Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).

Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.

All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.

In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.

Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.

As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.

So long,
Deino

*PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)*

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.
> 
> The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.
> 
> 
> By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).
> 
> Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:
> 
> The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".
> 
> Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).
> 
> Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.
> 
> All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.
> 
> In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.
> 
> Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.
> 
> As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.
> 
> So long,
> Deino
> 
> *PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)*


Deino, until today you still do not believe there is a domestic engine fitted even after a CCTV show. You still insist it was a nozzle modification. Do you really think so lowly of us Chinese? We had sent humans to space, produced the fastest supercomputers, dived the deepest ocean with our domestic submersibles. I am starting to think you are not really impartial. At least provide some evidence to counter the CCTV report.

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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Deino, until today you still do not believe there is a domestic engine fitted even after a CCTV show. You still insist it was a nozzle modification. Do you really think so lowly of us Chinese? We had sent humans to space, produced the fastest supercomputers, dived the deepest ocean with our domestic submersibles. I am starting to think you are not really impartial. At least provide some evidence to counter the CCTV report.




Sorry if I hurt Your or anybody's feelings but for me only arguments count and as such it has nothing to do with "thinking lowly of Chinese" - quite to the contrary I admire that culture, history and esp. their latest achievements - but that does not mean I have to believe each and every hyped TV-report esp. when such a report was deleted soon afterwards and earned a lot of critics from reliable posters.

So in return I'm astonished why some of You always tend to believe each and every such hyper-positive report regardless the lack of evidence. But again and like I said so often, time will tell.

Deino

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Sorry if I hurt Your or anybody's feelings but for me only arguments count and as such it has nothing to do with "thinking lowly of Chinese" - quite to the contrary I admire that culture, history and esp. their latest achievements - but that does not mean I have to believe each and every hyped TV-report esp. when such a report was deleted soon afterwards and earned a lot of critics from reliable posters.
> 
> So in return I'm astonished why some of You always tend to believe each and every such hyper-positive report regardless the lack of evidence. But again and like I said so often, time will tell.
> 
> Deino


Well, you have the right to have your own opinion. Guys let's keep this thread a fact sharing thread, no more debating whether it's domestic or foreign engine. If there are new developments, we just post and discuss. I think that is fair.

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## j20blackdragon

wanglaokan said:


> What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?



Because the high-temperature blue flame of the Russian afterburner is the most valuable part of the Russian engine technology. Higher temperature usually means higher thrust. Higher temperature could also mean shorter service life, but that is a different discussion.

If you copy the high-temperature afterburner, you'll also have to copy the nozzle because the nozzle was designed to handle the high-temperature.















The orange flame of the F119 afterburner indicates a lower temperature flame.






But why does the F119 produce so much more thrust with a lower temperature orange flame?

Because the dry thrust from the F119 core is absolutely superior to anything coming from Russia.

When the F-22 is supercruising, it is operating entirely on the dry thrust from the F119 core. The afterburner is turned off.

But during a dogfight, you might want the afterburner...

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## grey boy 2

Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报
*
优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：*某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，*空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。*
read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm

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## 帅的一匹

j20blackdragon said:


> Because the high-temperature blue flame of the Russian afterburner is the most valuable part of the Russian engine technology. Higher temperature usually means higher thrust. Higher temperature could also mean shorter service life, but that is a different discussion.
> 
> If you copy the high-temperature afterburner, you'll also have to copy the nozzle because the nozzle was designed to handle the high-temperature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The orange flame of the F119 afterburner indicates a lower temperature flame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But why does the F119 produce so much more thrust with a lower temperature orange flame?
> 
> Because the dry thrust from the F119 core is absolutely superior to anything coming from Russia.
> 
> When the F-22 is supercruising, it is operating entirely on the dry thrust from the F119 core. The afterburner is turned off.
> 
> But during a dogfight, you might want the afterburner...


I don't believe this theory bro.

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## UKBengali

grey boy 2 said:


> Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
> Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报
> *
> 优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：*某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，*空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。*
> read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm



Any data on how many can be produced in a year?

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## Han Patriot

grey boy 2 said:


> Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
> Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报
> *
> 优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：*某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，*空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。*
> read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm


Deino, this is from Xinhua, I guess we can trust this?? =). If the production doubled for components and engines, it meant they were already producing it. Hence, how come people still doubt domestic engine is equipping our front line fighter, J10, J11, etc?

*空军主战飞机 = Frontline fighter aircraft, meaning J11 & J10.*

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Deino, this is from Xinhua, I guess we can trust this?? =). If the production doubled for components and engines, it meant they were already producing it. Hence, how come people still doubt domestic engine is equipping our front line fighter, J10, J11, etc?
> 
> *空军主战飞机 = Frontline fighter aircraft, meaning J11 & J10.*


Means how many WS10 we can produce each year?


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## Han Patriot

wanglaokan said:


> Means how many WS10 we can produce each year?


No idea, but this just proves that the 400 engines in service is not just speculation/


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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> No idea, but this just proves that the 400 engines in service is not just speculation/


400 is a peanut number, need to work harder.

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## Nilgiri

wanglaokan said:


> I don't believe this theory bro.



It's largely a correct analysis. Its not 100% correlation, but STO engine afterburner colour does largely hint at what level of thrust can be achieved in the core itself. If you only need to operate it at low afterburner for same T/W and TO distance, it means the core is more efficient. You want to use the afterburner as low as possible over service length as that helps to extend the MTBO for the aft section.

You will notice most western fighter aircraft have orange whenever STO afterburner is used. You will find it for russian a/c too sometimes, but their take off distance will be longer generally when thats the case....as opposed to when they employ STO blue. These are all basically thrust settings depending on take off regime.

But the western engines and nozzles will also achieve blue afterburner (hence they also need to be designed to handle that temperature regime) if needed, but they don't need it for the STO they generally do.

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## rcrmj

Han Patriot said:


> No idea, but this just proves that the 400 engines in service is not just speculation/


400 WS-10 engines can barely serve 100 J-11B, one spare engine is the minimum``but we have and going to have 1000+ 4th/4.5th gen fighters. forget about the technological details of WS-10 over Al-31, the quantity alone can not allow us to rely on WS-10, you just cant`````so most of J-10A/B/C, J-15, J-11s are using Al engines``but the situation could be more bright for J-10D, J-16 and J-15B`````

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## Han Patriot

rcrmj said:


> 400 WS-10 engines can barely serve 100 J-11B, one spare engine is the minimum``but we have and going to have 1000+ 4th/4.5th gen fighters. forget about the technological details of WS-10 over Al-31, the quantity alone can not allow us to rely on WS-10, you just cant`````so most of J-10A/B/C, J-15, J-11s are using Al engines``but the situation could be more bright for J-10D, J-16 and J-15B`````


But this point had been used by the west to disprove Chinese progress. The fact is Chinese requirement for jet engines can't be fulfilled by domestic production alone.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> But this point had been used by the west to disprove Chinese progress. The fact is Chinese requirement for jet engines can't be fulfilled by domestic production alone.


Why care what the enemy said. I won't even borther to give it a jerk.

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## grey boy 2

Han Patriot said:


> No idea, but this just proves that the 400 engines in service is not just speculation/


400 engines was last year's number, according to their double their production rate claim, i am expected 800 in 2017

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> 400 engines was last year's number, according to their double their production rate claim, i am expected 800 in 2017


We produce 400 units of WS10 last year?

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## grey boy 2

wanglaokan said:


> We produce 400 units of WS10 last year?


Here brother
*December 15, 2016
In its annual report in July, Avic said it built more than 400 WS-10 engines last year, suggesting the J-10 and J-11 fighters no longer needed Russian engines.*
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/china-mass-producing-fighter-jets.html

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Here brother
> *December 15, 2016
> In its annual report in July, Avic said it built more than 400 WS-10 engines last year, suggesting the J-10 and J-11 fighters no longer needed Russian engines.*
> https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/china-mass-producing-fighter-jets.html




Sorry, but that report is pure BS and even less an official document ! It starts with an error - calling the J-11D a clone of the Su-35 - and continues with that vague statement of 400 engines last year but surely missed to add "until" last year or altogether by last year 400 WS-10 were produced. 


Deino

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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Sorry, but that report is pure BS and even less an official document ! It starts with an error - calling the J-11D a clone of the Su-35 - and continues with that vague statement of 400 engines last year but surely missed to add "until" last year or altogether by last year 400 WS-10 were produced.
> 
> 
> Deino


There was a Chinese source from AVIC somewhere in this thread that i've posted before, since i can't find it but i found this instead, never mind the content just it was quoted from the same AVIC source, so please hold your horse until i found the Chinese one ok?

Ok i found it, post #298
http://news.qq.com/a/20160706/042467.htm







http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm

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## sinait

grey boy 2 said:


> http://news.qq.com/a/20160706/042467.htm


截至2015年底，410厂已向海军、空军交付涡扇10发动机不少于400余台，被用于J11B、J11D、J16等机型，装备了不少于5个航空团。
By the end of 2015, 410 factory has delivered to the Navy and the Air Force WS-10 turbofan engine of not less than 400 units, being used for J11B, J11D, J16 models, and equipped no less than 5 aviation regiment.
.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Han Patriot said:


> No idea, but this just proves that the 400 engines in service is not just speculation/



More than 500 since two years ago.

http://v.ifeng.com/video_5027892.shtml

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> There was a Chinese source from AVIC somewhere in this thread that i've posted before, since i can't find it but i found this instead, never mind the content just it was quoted from the same AVIC source, so please hold your horse until i found the Chinese one ok?
> 
> Ok i found it, post #298
> http://news.qq.com/a/20160706/042467.htm
> http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm



Thanks a lot for that valuable source (and I hope You don't mind that after that blatant J-11D = Su-35-clone-error I was sceptical !), but especially @sinait's translation makes it more precise:



sinait said:


> 截至2015年底，410厂已向海军、空军交付涡扇10发动机不少于400余台，被用于J11B、J11D、J16等机型，装备了不少于5个航空团。
> By the end of 2015, 410 factory has delivered to the Navy and the Air Force WS-10 turbofan engine of not less than 400 units, being used for J11B, J11D, J16 models, and equipped no less than 5 aviation regiment.
> .



Since these "no less than 5 aviation regiment" are especially mentioned for these 400+ WS-10 and since they were not established within one year, it proves my theory that these 400 engines are the total amount of engines produces so far and not within last year.

Deino

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot for that valuable source (and I hope You don't mind that after that blatant J-11D = Su-35-clone-error I was sceptical !), but especially @sinait's translation makes it more precise:
> 
> 
> 
> Since these "no less than 5 aviation regiment" are especially mentioned for these 400+ WS-10 and since they were not established within one year, it proves my theory that these 400 engines are the total amount of engines produces so far and not within last year.
> 
> Deino


Yes, I believe it was 400+ so far last year, not last year produced 400+ engines.


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## Tiqiu

Could this engine shortly appeard in the CAIC Paris Air Show film be the WS-15? It looks really short in length and having 32 fan blades(at 0:46).










This engine has 32 fan blades





AL-31F and FWS-10 has 37 and 28 fan blades respectively

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## yusheng

Motor Sich is moving to Chongqing China now,
estimated that there will be more than 2000 Ukrain experts working in Chongqing in the near futrue




According to Ukraine embassy in Beijing on June 6, 2017 website news, June 2, Ukraine's ambassador to China, Mr JiaoMing visit to chongqing, and chongqing leadership talks and visited chongqing tianjiao aviation industry base base (chongqing).JiaoMing ambassador said in talks with the chongqing leadership, the government of Ukraine for aviation engine project attaches great importance to bilateral cooperation, hope to continue to support in chongqing, make tianjiao project model of bilateral cooperation.Ukraine's state news agency and Ukraine other domestic media also reported the event.

chongqing aero engine base was established in 2015, Ukraine embassy official took part in foundation ceremony , this is the ambassador Jiao Ming second time visit , the ambassador came here again and was shocked by the sight.

Mr. JiaoMing praised engine base construction progress, said the construction progress beyond his imagination, such simply unthinkable in Ukraine.

On June 20th and 21st, the department of consular affairs deputy Liu Xu and chongqing vice mayor gui-ping liu met with Ukrainian officials related affairs.

Both sides negotiate a visa in China, the Ukrainian lengthen visa and consular protection problem, especially in chongqing.





chongqing base:













on zhuhai Air show, the joint company displayed several kind of aero engine:





other :
（科技日报北京6月1日电）
http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2017-06/02/content_370552.htm?div=-1

The article released some information never heard before;
Bilateral joint development of large wide-body passenger aircraft engine!
On May 31, in an interview with science and technology daily, Beijing tianjiao aviation industry investment co., LTD., innovation, vice President of the institute, the national "one thousand project" expert Wang Guangqiu.Of a new generation of aviation engine AI - 38 (China tianjiao airlines with Ukraine motor sich company based on D - 18 t engine).

CJ - 2000 and AI-38 thrust at about 30-34 tons.And AI - 38 derived type belongs to the new big bypass ratio engine, the prototype D - 18 t is famous for serving Ann - 225 and Ann - 124 two type conveyer for 22 years of "heart". AI-38 has three rotor structure, with high efficiency, small volume, light weight, etc.The latest news, bilateral joint engine manufacturing base in chongqing municipality has started to install test bed.

文章内之前从未有过的信息；中乌联合研制宽体大客机航空发动机！大运应该也能用。
5月31日，在接受科技日报记者采访时，北京天骄航空产业投资有限公司创新研究院副院长、国家“千人计划”专家王光秋。 中乌新一代航空发动机AI-38（中国天骄航空与乌克兰进步设计局、乌克兰马达西奇公司联合体共同在乌克兰D-18T发动机基础上研制开发）。CJ-2000和AI-38的推力约在30—34吨左右。 而中乌联合研制的AI-38属于衍生型新型大涵道比发动机，其原型机D-18T则是名震遐迩、已服役安-225及安-124两个型号运输机22年的“动力心脏”。乌克兰开发的大型涡扇发动机与罗罗公司的遄达系列发动机具有相同的三转子结构，具有效率高、体积小、重量轻等特点。最新消息，位于重庆的中乌联合发动机制造基地已开始安装试车台。

ps
2017年5月26日，国家工信部安全生产司副巡视员李维嘉一行到重庆天骄航空动力产业基地调研，并与公司领导座谈。天骄航空总裁杜涛、公司相关部门负责人陪同调研。

调研期间，杜涛总裁从企业概况、发展历程、项目进展等方面进行了汇报，其中重点介绍了重庆基地的安全生产工作开展情况。杜涛总裁介绍说，基地占地约7500亩，分为北、中、南3个区，2015年12月底开工建设，经过近一年半的时间，目前北区已经完成部分厂房的建设并即将交付使用，五年后基地将具备涡轴、涡桨、涡扇等多系列、多型号先进航空发动机研发、批产和维修保障能力。

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## Asoka

There is not one single piece of evidence that J-20 is using WS-15, huh?

【青峰视界】官方首次公开歼-20发动机为国产涡扇“峨眉”

今晚10点，央视4播出纪录片“走进中国”-“匠心第四集-工匠之家”中，介绍沈阳黎明发动机公司首席大师，片中直言：歼20发动机为中国第五代“峨眉”（涡扇-15/FWS-15）涡扇发动机。
这次公开的信息，直接回击了对中国航空发动机制造水平、能力的质疑和贬低，直接打了迄今一直鼓噪歼-20用“毛发”的小白们一记响亮的耳光！

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## aliaselin

> 第五个方式，是直接收购。现在中国的企业有能力了，想要一个企业索性把他收购了，一下把你控股权买了，买了以后自己给自己决策，把他搬到你这个地方资源优化配置，省得招来招去，讨论来讨论去。我们曾经干过一个事，就是把乌克兰的一个航空发动机工厂给收购了。整机组装都在俄罗斯，发动机都在乌克兰，乌克兰发动机保持供应俄罗斯。四年前他们吵架以后，俄罗斯也不买他的发动机，自己也能做发动机了。乌克兰尽管跟欧洲好，但是欧洲有空客，有自己的发动机，很强大，也不需要他，他这个企业就倒闭了。这个企业50年代、60年代一直是国有，90年代叶利钦变革以后，党委书记、董事长就变成董事长，变成私人老板了，总经理是他儿子。我们十亿美元收购了他的股权，然后花100多亿把他的企业搬到重庆，使重庆形成一个年生产上千个发动机的工厂。这是高科技，乌克兰的发动机水平比国内的发动机高好多倍，提前好多年，所以国内的市场是有需要的，而且我们本来就在采购他们的发动机，现在能本地制造更好。这个案例是收购了他，转为自己使用。


First time officially confirmed that Motor Sich has been purchased by Chongqin Government

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## Daniel808

*One of the 3D Vector Nozzles under Development for an Engine Dedicated to the J-20 Stealth Fighter (WS-15 Engine?)
















*

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## JSCh

*China establishes first aero engine institute*
(People's Daily Online) 17:05, August 29, 2017




China established its first aero engine institute in Nanchang, Jiangxi province, on Monday, in an effort to boost the country’s aero-engine industry, as well as wean itself from foreign suppliers.

The institute, which was jointly created by China’s leading aero tech giant Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) and Nanchang Hangkong University, aims to train high-end talents and carry out scientific research on engine-making.

“Aero engines are the gems of modern industrial manufacturing. They are often used to gauge a country’s comprehensive national power and technological capabilities. The establishment of China’s first aero engine institute is a fruit of cooperation between enterprises and universities, which will inject China’s engine industry with vitality,” Guo Zhongjie, Party chief of Nanchang Hangkong University, told Chinanews.cn.

China is gearing up to realize its dream of “taking off” by boosting a global aviation power. It goes all out with the state will and nationwide strength, targeting to have its own aircraft with home-made aero-engine.

According to Xinhua, China plans to catch up or surpass their western peers in 20 years. The plan outlined three phases for development: fill a vacancy, catch up, and then become equals.

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## Raphael

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

A Chinese private enterprise has successfully purified the rare metal rhenium to manufacture the single crystal blade, which is crucial for the production of aircraft engines, CCTV.com reported on Sept. 3.

The rare metal was purified after a year and a half effort by Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Co. Ltd. in cooperation with the Hunan Research Institute for Nonferrous Metals.

The company discovered a mine with about 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.






A report released by the U.S. Geological Survey shows that the explored reserve of rhenium in the earth’s crust is only about 2,500 tons, even less than that of rare elements. The price for each gram is 200 to 300 RMB (about $31 to 46), which makes it as expensive as platinum.

The metal is the main material for producing the single crystal blade, which is crucial for manufacturing aircraft engines, and the technology directly affects the performance of the engine.

Zhang Zheng, chairman of the company, put together a professional team through the country’s talent recruitment program.

Verified results show that the single crystal blade met Europe and U.S quality standards in terms of tensile properties and endurance performance at high temperatures.






The success makes the company China’s first to achieve mass production of the single crystal blade for manufacturing aircraft engines.

Aircraft engines, as one of the most complicated mechanical systems, should be able to work under high temperatures, high pressures, high rotation speeds, and high load; and be high power, light weight, long lasting, and highly reliable.

China has been faced with a hurdle of self-developing aircraft engines, because the U.S. and some Western countries have blocked certain exports such as rhenium to China for many years.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Raphael said:


> The success makes the company China’s first to achieve mass production of the single crystal blade for manufacturing aircraft engines. Verified results show that the single crystal blade met Europe and U.S quality standards in terms of tensile properties and endurance performance at high temperatures.


Oh! This is *tremendous*, it's on now!


Raphael said:


> China has been faced with a hurdle of self-developing aircraft engines, because the U.S. and some Western countries have blocked certain exports such as rhenium to China for many years.


Lol at the hatin' US and its flunkies -- China just can't be stopped. Even if they block their exports, Chile produces most of the world's rhenium. Even _if _they could get Chile to halt exports -- which they can't, Chile is a sovereign country -- Kazakhstan produces plenty.

Keep thinking you can stop China. Your every export control makes China stronger and more self-reliant. More controls, please.

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## Rafi

Well done Chinese brothers and sisters.

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## Cthulhu

Raphael said:


> http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html
> 
> A Chinese private enterprise has successfully purified the rare metal rhenium to manufacture the single crystal blade, which is crucial for the production of aircraft engines, CCTV.com reported on Sept. 3.
> 
> The rare metal was purified after a year and a half effort by Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Co. Ltd. in cooperation with the Hunan Research Institute for Nonferrous Metals.
> 
> The company discovered a mine with about 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A report released by the U.S. Geological Survey shows that the explored reserve of rhenium in the earth’s crust is only about 2,500 tons, even less than that of rare elements. The price for each gram is 200 to 300 RMB (about $31 to 46), which makes it as expensive as platinum.
> 
> The metal is the main material for producing the single crystal blade, which is crucial for manufacturing aircraft engines, and the technology directly affects the performance of the engine.
> 
> Zhang Zheng, chairman of the company, put together a professional team through the country’s talent recruitment program.
> 
> Verified results show that the single crystal blade met Europe and U.S quality standards in terms of tensile properties and endurance performance at high temperatures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The success makes the company China’s first to achieve mass production of the single crystal blade for manufacturing aircraft engines.
> 
> Aircraft engines, as one of the most complicated mechanical systems, should be able to work under high temperatures, high pressures, high rotation speeds, and high load; and be high power, light weight, long lasting, and highly reliable.
> 
> China has been faced with a hurdle of self-developing aircraft engines, because the U.S. and some Western countries have blocked certain exports such as rhenium to China for many years.


This is a huge achievement, Congrats.

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## friendly_troll96



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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Raphael said:


> http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html
> 
> China has been faced with a hurdle of self-developing aircraft engines, because the U.S. and some Western countries have blocked certain exports such as rhenium to China for many years.



WTF, these westerners complain to WTO that China set restriction of selling rare earth but they block rhenium export to China...and China did nothing.

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## Jlaw

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> WTF, these westerners complain to WTO that China set restriction of selling rare earth but they block rhenium export to China...and China did nothing.


China leadership is weak.

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## atan651

Very weak indeed! China needs an aggressive military general instead of Xi.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congradulations to Chinese brothers on their remarkable achivement

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## Figaro

TANAHH said:


> Very weak indeed! China needs an aggressive military general instead of Xi.


Compared to Hu and Jiang, Xi is miles ahead ... China does not need an aggressive military general like Chiang Kai-Shek if that's what you mean. Xi is already a very good mixture when it comes to asserting Chinese influence



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> WTF, these westerners complain to WTO that China set restriction of selling rare earth but they block rhenium export to China...and China did nothing.


That's why China has been restricting its other rare earth metals ... because of unfair restrictions such as Rhenium. Basically, it's a tit for tat approach ...

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## TaiShang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> WTF, these westerners complain to WTO that China set restriction of selling rare earth but they block rhenium export to China...and China did nothing.



Now China has unified it's rare earth sector to ensure environmental protection and price stability. 

The Western shills need to obey to the laws.

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## Figaro

Guys, any updates on the WS-15 after the huge WS-10X revelation on Saturday? Is this good or bad for the WS-15's development? Thanks ...

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## samsara

I do believe that China is taking the great ENGINE CHALLENGES as one of the latest and greatest technological boundary to subdue and master... the nation will put in the *relentless efforts and resources* to achieve the excellence, all the announced achievements will simply bolster their perseverance and confidence... they can only be the positive contributing factors to further achievements and mastery.... the long and great journey will still be carrying on...  

-----
_"One step at a time is good walking."_

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## JSCh

*China plans to catch up with advanced aero engine producers in 20 years*
By Sun Wenyu (People's Daily Online) 16:57, September 11, 2017






_(File photo)_​
“China plans to catch up with the advanced aero engine producers in 20 years,” said Cao Jianguo, chairman of the Aero Engine Cooperation of China (AECC).

Only five countries in the world – the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council - are able to produce aero engines, Cao noted. Though being in this group, China is still hindered by out-of-date technologies.

With the development of aero engines and improved research cycle time, it is possible for China to accomplish this mission, Cao added.

It takes more than 20 years to develop a new-generation aero engine, which is the world’s most complicated machinery system, and which combines multiple disciplines.

In addition, the technical barriers also require astronomical amounts of capital. A medium-large sized aero engine costs around $2-3 billion for research and development, and the figure doubles when it comes to more advanced machines.

“Design capability is China’s biggest weakness,” remarked Yin Zeyong, a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and head of AECC’s science and technology commission. Design, tests, and trial flights all contribute to the time it takes to develop aero engines, but enhancing design capability is the only way to smooth the development, Yin said.

Besides, China now lacks a standardized code system, which forms the basis of the most advanced aero engine producers, noted Wang Yingjie, director of the management innovation department of the AECC. “We still have a long way to go in this regard,” he stressed.

However, China’s state-run system is a key factor that drives the development of the country’s aero engines. “Related enterprises are sparing no efforts to support us,” said Luo Ronghuai, vice chairman of the AECC. “They are supporting us even at their own losses when we need specific steels in very limited amount,” he added.

China will establish a development and research system for aero engines before 2020. According to Wang, the AECC is currently planning on a comprehensive operation and management system covering four major aspects: research, manufacture, supplier management, and service assurance. In addition, a self-developed standardized code system for research and development will be completed.

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## kuge

JSCh said:


> *China plans to catch up with advanced aero engine producers in 20 years*
> By Sun Wenyu (People's Daily Online) 16:57, September 11, 2017
> ...................
> _(File photo)_​
> “China plans to catch up with the advanced aero engine producers in 20 years,” said Cao Jianguo, chairman of the Aero Engine Cooperation of China (AECC).
> 
> Only five countries in the world – the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council - are able to produce aero engines, Cao noted. Though being in this group, China is still hindered by out-of-date technologies.
> ........


Ukraine is one of them too...

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## samsara

Must read this article posted by @GiantPanda on 2017-09-10 at the COMAC C919 thread:

*"C919 jumbo jet expected to be powered by homemade engine: expert"*

China's domestically developed jumbo jet C919 is expected to be equipped with homemade engines "soon"
Domestically made Changjiang-1000 engine (CJ-1000) that may be used to power the C919 is under development and will replace imported foreign engines in future on the jet, according to Cao Chunxiao, an academician with the Chinese Academy of Sciences and a researcher with Aero Engine Corporation of China Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials, said on Saturday (09 SEP).
Nearly 23 percent of the CJ-1000 engine will probably be titanium alloy, which has higher density than iron and will help reduce the weight of the jet, Cao said during the 2017 China's Top 500 Enterprises Summit Forum on Saturday in Jiangxi, thepaper.cn reported.
"The first Changjiang-1000 (CJ-1000) engine is expected to be completed by the end of 2017 and a series of intensive tests are planned when it is mounted on an airplane," Feng Jinzhang, general manager at AECC Commercial Aircraft Engines Co, said at a forum on August 26.
The CJ-1000 is designed for C919, but is expected to power either Boeing 737 or Airbus 320 or a similar newly built aircraft in the world market by 2025, Wang said.

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## Figaro

kuge said:


> Ukraine is one of them too...


No ... that's Russia. Ukraine doesn't exactly produce AL-31 turbofans ...

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## UKBengali

kuge said:


> Ukraine is one of them too...



So can Japan.


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## JSCh

* Chinese aero-engine manufacturer shows high-end models at expo *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-09-11 20:12:15_|_Editor: An_





BEIJING, Sept. 11 (Xinhua) -- Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC), the country's leading state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer, will show its high-end products at the upcoming Aviation Expo China 2017.

The company will exhibit its major achievements in promoting integrated military and civilian development at the expo, which will be held in Beijing from Sept. 19 to 22, according to the AECC.

It will exhibit one aircraft engine, two gas turbines, as well as two patented technologies of graphene material and high precision aluminum alloy.

The WZ16, a model of turboshaft engine, jointly developed by the AECC and French aviation giant of Safran, will also be displayed.

The WZ16 can be fitted to a seven-to-eight tonne helicopter, or 13-tonne triple-engine helicopter. On Dec. 20 last year, it completed a successful maiden flight on the AC352, China's first seven-tonne multi-purpose twin-engine helicopter.

Meanwhile, the AECC will exhibit its QD70 gas turbine and 100KW small-sized gas turbine, which can operate on a variety of fuels for multiple uses.

Aircraft and turbo engines are a representative industry for China's industrial development.

The state-owned AECC was set up on Aug. 28, 2016, with a target of accelerating independent research, development and manufacturing of aircraft engines and gas turbines.

Founded in 1984, China Aviation Expo was China's first professional aviation expo. This year it has attracted more than 300 exhibitors from 14 countries and regions.

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## 26-K

UKBengali said:


> So can Japan.


Well, the article doesn't explicitly mention it but they are implicitly referring to high thrust military engines not just any random aero engine that a lot countries can probably make if they have the will to do so. When it comes to the very high-thrust turbofans which is the main focus area, only 3 countries currently make military turbofans which are well above 100kN which are the US, Russia and China.
My point is if you lower the standard enough then many other countries outside the traditional players can be put on the list though that's not the point of the article. 
Of course we also have to note the differences between civil and military engine development effort.

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## Figaro

*Latest fighter jets to use domestically made engines by 2022: experts*
Source
Global Times
Editor
Huang Panyue
Time
2017-09-13
A+-

China's latest fighter jets will be powered by domestically made engines by 2022, experts said, as a television crew was given a glimpse of a J-11B fighter's radar system and engine.

"More Chinese fighting jets, including the J-10, J11, J-20 and J-31, will be powered by homegrown engines. China's new generation of military jets will all be powered by domestically-made engines within five years," Xu Guangyu, a senior adviser to the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times.

The J-11B is powered by two domestic-made engines, a China Central Television (CCTV) reporter said, who gained access to a secret warehouse of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, a major fighter jet producer located in Northeast China's Shenyang Province. CCTV aired a report on the jet on Tuesday.

"The domestically made engine WS-10C on the J-11B is quite competitive to the previous Russian-made AL31 engine," Xu Yongling, an air force expert at the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics (CSAA), told the Global Times.

Newly produced J-11B jets will be powered by the WS-10C, but engines on the current 120 J-11Bs won't be totally replaced due to the high cost, Xu Yongling said.

"China still lags behind in turbofan engines, especially engines that feature domestic single-crystal turbine blades made from metal rhenium," Xu Guangyu explained.

Most of the technology of single-crystal turbine blades is in the hands of State companies, Wang Yanan, chief editor of the Aerospace Knowledge magazine, previously told the Global Times. The Sichuan Province-based Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company became China's first company to mass produce single-crystal turbine blades, CCTV had earlier reported.

The participation of private firms in the aviation industry would make production more efficient, Wang said.

Xu Youngling said the military aircraft engine industry is monopolized by State-owned companies, and will still take some time before more private companies enter this high-end industry.

"The domestic engines will be gradually tested on more fighters, Xu Guangyu stressed, adding that it would be strategically beneficial to the army since most fighter jets are powered by Western-made engines.



http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-09/13/content_7753378.htm

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## Deino

*WS-10C ??????*


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> *WS-10C ??????*


Yeah, I'm not sure why they said that. Maybe that is the real designation. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Xu Yongling has more knowledge about Chinese engines than any poster or "Big Shrimp" here though! Very interesting revelation if accurate ....

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure why they said that. Maybe that is the real designation. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Xu Yongling has more knowledge about Chinese engines than any poster or "Big Shrimp" here though! Very interesting revelation if accurate ....




By the way if he means "*Latest fighter jets to use domestically made engines by 2022" *and connects this with the J-11B-production & WS-10C, I have daubs that then a WS-15 will be ready soon.


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> By the way if he means "*Latest fighter jets to use domestically made engines by 2022" *and connects this with the J-11B-production & WS-10C, I have daubs that then a WS-15 will be ready soon.


No. He's referring to the WS-15 IMO. But then again, Xu is the commentator who insisted that the J-20 used domestic engines as early as 2015 ... so not too accurate.



Figaro said:


> *Latest fighter jets to use domestically made engines by 2022: experts*
> Source
> Global Times
> Editor
> Huang Panyue
> Time
> 2017-09-13
> A+-
> 
> China's latest fighter jets will be powered by domestically made engines by 2022, experts said, as a television crew was given a glimpse of a J-11B fighter's radar system and engine.
> 
> "More Chinese fighting jets, including the J-10, J11, J-20 and J-31, will be powered by homegrown engines. China's new generation of military jets will all be powered by domestically-made engines within five years," Xu Guangyu, a senior adviser to the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times.
> 
> The J-11B is powered by two domestic-made engines, a China Central Television (CCTV) reporter said, who gained access to a secret warehouse of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, a major fighter jet producer located in Northeast China's Shenyang Province. CCTV aired a report on the jet on Tuesday.
> 
> "The domestically made engine WS-10C on the J-11B is quite competitive to the previous Russian-made AL31 engine," Xu Yongling, an air force expert at the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics (CSAA), told the Global Times.
> 
> Newly produced J-11B jets will be powered by the WS-10C, but engines on the current 120 J-11Bs won't be totally replaced due to the high cost, Xu Yongling said.
> 
> "China still lags behind in turbofan engines, especially engines that feature domestic single-crystal turbine blades made from metal rhenium," Xu Guangyu explained.
> 
> Most of the technology of single-crystal turbine blades is in the hands of State companies, Wang Yanan, chief editor of the Aerospace Knowledge magazine, previously told the Global Times. The Sichuan Province-based Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company became China's first company to mass produce single-crystal turbine blades, CCTV had earlier reported.
> 
> The participation of private firms in the aviation industry would make production more efficient, Wang said.
> 
> Xu Youngling said the military aircraft engine industry is monopolized by State-owned companies, and will still take some time before more private companies enter this high-end industry.
> 
> "The domestic engines will be gradually tested on more fighters, Xu Guangyu stressed, adding that it would be strategically beneficial to the army since most fighter jets are powered by Western-made engines.
> 
> 
> 
> http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-09/13/content_7753378.htm


WS-10C is the successor to the WS-10B then. The J-20 is probably using the WS-10C then ... maybe that's the IPE or smt

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## Deino

Or that report at all if plain inaccurate at best !


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Or that report at all if plain inaccurate at best !


I think this part is accurate though ...
*"The domestically made engine WS-10C on the J-11B is quite competitive to the previous Russian-made AL31 engine," Xu Yongling, an air force expert at the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics (CSAA), told the Global Times.

Newly produced J-11B jets will be powered by the WS-10C, but engines on the current 120 J-11Bs won't be totally replaced due to the high cost, Xu Yongling said.*



Figaro said:


> I think this part is accurate though ...
> *"The domestically made engine WS-10C on the J-11B is quite competitive to the previous Russian-made AL31 engine," Xu Yongling, an air force expert at the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics (CSAA), told the Global Times.
> 
> Newly produced J-11B jets will be powered by the WS-10C, but engines on the current 120 J-11Bs won't be totally replaced due to the high cost, Xu Yongling said.*


This could refer to a production line restart ... which means that the new J-11Bs have uprated engines

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## grey boy 2

Pupu-2012: "WS-10B is performing extremely well nowadays, much more than 13.2 tones thrust, the unstable and production struggle has long gone since a few years ago

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## ChineseTiger1986

grey boy 2 said:


> Pupu-2012: "WS-10B is performing extremely well nowadays, much more than 13.2 tones thrust, the unstable and production struggle has long gone since a few years ago



Most likely 14 tonnes with the potential to be optimized to more than 15 tonnes.

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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> Pupu-2012: "WS-10B is performing extremely well nowadays, much more than 13.2 tones thrust, the unstable and production struggle has long gone since a few years ago


Pupu suggests that the overall thrust is slightly lower than 14 tonnes in one of his posts ... so still way above 13.2



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most likely 14 tonnes with the potential to be optimized to more than 15 tonnes.


They could charge the engine up to 14.5 tonnes but that would compromise service life ...

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## ChineseTiger1986

Figaro said:


> Pupu suggests that the overall thrust is slightly lower than 14 tonnes in one of his posts ... so still way above 13.2
> 
> 
> They could charge the engine up to 14.5 tonnes but that would compromise service life ...



I think over 15 tonnes with the improving lifespan.

Just look at the AL-31F for example, it started with 12 tonnes, but now it has become more mature with its maximum potential being exploited, and now it is over 13 tonnes with the improving lifespan.

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## Figaro

Han Warrior said:


> I am not saying it is WS-10C, but what I am trying to say is do we really actually know what is happening in PLA? This is the most secretive and opaque military on earth. Therefore, there is no other way of having genuine information unless officially released through official media and CCTV programs as per globaltimes mentioned a WS-10C, could this C be the designation of the WS-10X? Who knows? I don't care as long as it's Chinese.


First, the WS-10 variants are not very "secretive" anymore. Numerous Big Shrimps have accurately forecasted the operational status of various Taihang engines (WS-10, WS-10B, WS-20 ...). The only engine we know very little about is the in-development WS-15, which the PLAAF is very secretive about. We all know the WS-10's thrust and life so there's nothing new to that. Regarding the WS-10C, they are probably referring to an uprated WS-10B or the "plus" variant that the new J-20 is testing. It probably is only a stop-gap measure until the WS-15 comes out 2 years later but until then, nothing much can be confirmed ...



Deino said:


> From what do we know that ?? So far the this mystical WS-10C was never ever mentioned and only the WS-10B connected as the latest family member to the J-20A. Now with this IMO strange report suddenly a WS-10C is mentioned is expressis verbis connected with the J-11B ... so how do You come to the conclusion that this WS-10C is now the J-20's engine???
> 
> Deino


The WS-10C could be the WS-10B+ Huitong was referring to. Isn't the WS-10X an uprated WS-10B? It would make sense to give it a new letter designation ...



lmjiao said:


> Even though it is hardly to image, but what you suggested is actually the reality. Except for some official report from sth like 《新闻联播》, usually pupu is much more reliable than CCTV or Chinamil.
> 
> If you are Chinese mil fan, you know what I mean.


I think that Pupu is one of the most reliable PLAAF insiders ...

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## Deino

*Guys, I really don't understand it  ... Is it that difficult to post all J-20 related engine speculations in the special thread? Why derail the J-20-thread and now the engines-thread with off-topic theories, giving moral support and speculations???? 

Therefore this thread is also closed ... and will be opened again when I'm back home and moved certain posts.

Come on ... It is not that difficult.

Deino in France.*


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## beijingwalker

*Rolls Royce chairman predicts: Chinese-made jet engines coming soon*

Rolls Royce expects China to begin engine manufacturing for jumbo jets, company Chairman Ian Davis said at the Singapore Summit
"It makes sense for industrialized countries to start doing so," he said
Nyshka Chandran | Nancy Hungerford
Published 12 Hours Ago
The world's second-largest economy will likely start manufacturing engines for jumbo jets soon, according to Rolls-Royce, a long-time engine manufacturer for commercial and defense aerospace.

"In the long-run, it's very possible and plausible that China and other countries will be looking to develop wide-body engines," said Rolls Royce Chairman Ian Davis at the Singapore Summit over the weekend. "It makes sense for industrialized countries to start doing so and we assume at some stage of the future that they will come in."


The Shanghai-based Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, or COMAC, has already begun the development of a narrow-body engine.




The first C919 passenger jet made by the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (Comac) is pulled out next to a Chinese national flag during a news conference at the company's factory in Shanghai, Nov. 2, 2015.
"It's a big growth market and I think the key, as always, is to make sure you've got competitive products that really offer something to customers," said Davis.

In addition to aerospace and cars, Rolls Royce's other business segments include industrial products for the marine, nuclear and power sectors.

Davis said he continued to expect strong growth from the Middle East.

That market "is driven by aggressive strategies to attract traffic and ambitions to build a real hub in the region, not oil prices," he explained.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/18/rol...-on-chinese-jet-engines-singapore-summit.html

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## aliaselin

4th player of aero engine in China

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## grey boy 2

Pictures of "Taihang engines" ground test, thrust vectoring 太行地面测试照片...



矢量？ 
(鼎盛:白开心)

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## aliaselin

Skyrizon aeroengine factory in Chongqin
http://video.sina.com.cn/view/251670555.html

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Pictures of "Taihang engines" ground test, thrust vectoring 太行地面测试照片...
> 
> 
> 
> 矢量？
> (鼎盛:白开心)



These are very very old images showing the WS-10 in its early day years ago. No TVC.

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## Figaro

WS-10 











Deino said:


> These are very very old images showing the WS-10 in its early day years ago. No TVC.


Here are some new images then ...

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> WS-10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some new images then ...


Source?


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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Source?


CCTV. I’m not sure where the documentary is though but it should be pretty obvious engine is WS-10 ...


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## beijingwalker

*China’s new engine compared to Europe and American fighter jet engine




*

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## samsara

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/910519227890540545

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## 帅的一匹



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## yantong1980

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 428519



Any videos?


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.
> 
> The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.
> 
> 
> By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).
> 
> Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:
> 
> The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".
> 
> Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).
> 
> Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.
> 
> All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.
> 
> In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.
> 
> Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.
> 
> As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.
> 
> So long,
> Deino
> 
> *PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)*


It turns out @Deino was very correct ... looks like you’re talking to the right guys on weibo

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## Figaro

Can someone translate this screenshot? It's pertaining to the WS-15 and WS-10C ... thanks

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## kuge

Figaro said:


> Can someone translate this screenshot? It's pertaining to the WS-15 and WS-10C ... thanks


"15's exhaust nozzle should look similar to the current ws-10c's. I saw they mentioned quite alike."

more or less similar, TVC is invisible.

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## Figaro

Interesting article about WS-15 (not explicitly mentioned). I wonder what the two engines at the bottom are ... ?




I wonder what engines are these two ... Taihang?

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## Figaro

WS-10B bench test

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> WS-10B bench test




Why do You think so ?? Only since Sina post it? Sometimes they are not even able to identify a certain aircraft type and now only since they claim so? Come on ....


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Anyway it’s a Taihang ... I think the source of the photo said WS-10B. They didn’t make it up; the source of photo said so. Regardless, the WS-10A looks similar to WS-10B ... so they could be wrong




My point is only that SINA says so much on nearly everything and is barely a highly reliable source. Even more that image is indeed clearly a WS-10 looks so much dated - Your WS-10 and even more the test-stand posted in #690 looks more modern - that it is more likely a very early Taihang test.

I only beg You to be more careful and not blindly copy-pasting anything from Sina ...

Deino


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> but I’m telling you that Sina did not take the photo. Sina quoted the source of photo as saying that it was the WS-10B; it wasn’t based on their own judgement. Now if the source of the photo was wrong, then that’s not Sina’s fault.




Sorry, but that's a lame argument. If I publish anything and it is BS who's the one to blame? Me, the author - in that case Sina - who did not check properly or the original even less reliable source? IMO it is a clear sign of bad journalism ... a point You just blamed the guys at Nationalinterest or David Axe.

My point is You can nearly find anything at Sina ... sometimes quite good and accurate reports and sometimes pure fan-reports, rumours and hype.

It's like looking for mushrooms in the wood: You find some fine and delicate but also poison ones. And who's to blame if You pick them? ... surely not the forest.


Deino

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Sorry, but that's a lame argument. If I publish anything and it is BS who's the one to blame? Me, the author - in that case Sina - who did not check properly or the original even less reliable source? IMO it is a clear sign of bad journalism ... a point You just blamed the guys at Nationalinterest or David lAxe.
> 
> My point is You can nearly find anything at Sina ... sometimes quite good and accurate reports and sometimes pure fan-reports, rumours and hype.
> 
> It's like looking for mushrooms in the wood: You find some fine and delicate but also poison ones. And who's to blame if You pick them? ... surely not the forest.
> 
> 
> Deino


Instead of attacking Sina or the picture source’s credentials, can actually you disprove that it is a WS-10B? I agree that Sina often makes mistakes, but what if they actually quoted it right this time? Claiming that the engine in question is not a WS-10B just by attacking Sina’s credentials is not a strong argument. And how do we know that the source Sina quoted is not reliable? Even you admitted that Sina is “sometimes quite good and accurate”

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## Deino

Not sure by You are so much offended? IMO it is a sign of good analysis and journalism to question any statement and image esp. if a certain source is known for not overall reliable.
So instead of complaining my concerns I'm a bit surprised that You seem to take everything for granted especially You seem to have missed my argument: Just look at that image ... which WS-10 on a teststand looks more modern? This just now posted image from Sina or Your image posted a few days ago??

And if You now take into consideration that nearly exact images showing a WS-10 on an outside teststand were posted several years ago - even if I have to admit that I wasn't able to find it in my collection - I think it is at least allowed to question the text.

In return, Your post just say "WS-10B bench test" as if You have confirmation or as if You are sure!??
Not even an "alleged", "maybe" or "said to be" in advance. 

But again it's a matter of trust and I don't trust Sina very much.

Deino

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## Deino

Deino said:


> ...
> But again it's a matter of trust and I don't trust Sina very much.
> 
> Deino



Like I said... and if I have to weight reliability and credibility of xinfengcao vs Sina, Sina will loose without any doubt by a wide, wide margin. By the way that old image was taken at the CFTE at Xi'an/Yanliang, while the newer/more recent one most likely at Jiangyou, Sichuan province.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921888665898426368


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## cirr

*Chinese enterprise makes core component of aircraft engines: report*

2017-10-25 09:53 Global Times _Editor: Li Yan_

Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Co (CAST), a listed mining company, made a great breakthrough in producing a single-crystal blade, the most important part of an aviation engine, national business channel CCTV 2 reported on Monday.

Designed to work at the highest temperatures, under the most complicated pressure levels and exposed to the most adverse environment in the engine, the single-crystal blades were produced by CAST to a high standard and used customized casting techniques.

The single-crystal blades directly determine the performance of an aviation engine.

"Specifications of the turbofan engine have reached an advanced international level. All components have independent intellectual property rights for both design and production, especially the most difficult part - the single-crystal turbine blades inside the engine," Xu Gang, a member of the aircraft engine R&D team and dean of the Laboratory of Light-duty Gas-turbines in the Institute of Engineering Thermophysics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, was quoted as saying in the report.

The development has broken the U.S. monopoly in the global market, said the report.

In the core of a thrust engine, the component consists of 60 single blades. Each blade outputs power that is equivalent to a sport utility vehicle car with a 2.0 liter engine and the temperature is more than 1,720 C.

To avoid melting, the materials for single-blade production include a rare metal called rhenium.

To maintain its dominant position in the aviation industry, the U.S. and some other Western countries have blocked China from both material and technical details for years, according to the report.

CAST is able to purify rhenium for the blade product in a customized furnace now, it said.

http://www.ecns.cn/business/2017/10-25/278319.shtml



*中国企业打破美国垄断 造出航空发动机核心部件*

2017-10-24 20:13:29字号：A- A A+来源：央视财经

关键字:中国 航空发动机铼 发动机涡扇发动机单晶叶片

这两天随着十九大的胜利召开，一些振奋人心的新名词被大家热议着。未来的中国将要建设成为科技强国、质量强国、航天强国、网络强国、交通强国、数字中国，而广大科技人员也奋力走在实现这些宏伟目标的路上。

央视财经10月23日“经济半小时”节目关注我国航空航天业的新发展。在科研人员的努力下，我国航空发动机关键零件单晶叶片、3D打印金属钛零件等，均已取得国际领先水平。

*不断打破国外垄断 中国航空发动机关键零件国际领先*

在河北廊坊科技园，一款为无人机和商务机而设计的航空发动机正在进行150小时试车，考核发动机在各种状态下技术性能和可靠性及寿命等综合指标。







中国科学院工程热物理所所长朱俊强：150小时做完了，首飞保证就没问题了，可以到不同高度进行试飞了，这个发动机基本定型。

*十三五期间，我国启动了航空发动机和燃气轮机重大专项，航空工业持续发力，不断缩小与国际一流发动机生产企业的差距。*

中国科学院工程热物理所轻型动力实验室实任徐纲：这一款涡扇发动机它的耗油率、寿命指标都达到了国际先进水平，国内也是个空白，*所有的零件都是自主设计、自主生产，尤其是像里面的高温的单晶涡轮叶片，实际上就是可以说发动机里面加工的难点中的难点。*






单晶叶片处于航空发动机中温度最高、应力最复杂、环境最恶劣的部位，是航空产品第一关键零件，它的铸造工艺直接决定了航空发动机的性能。

在这台1000公斤推力的发动机中心，核心部件就是眼前这60片单晶叶片。发动机将空气进行压缩之后压入燃烧室，在有限的空间内和燃料发生剧烈燃烧，产生猛烈的燃气喷射流，推动这些叶片高速旋转，让看似单薄的零件迸发出惊人的动力，每一片叶片输出的马力都相当于一台2.0排量的SUV汽车，温度大概在1720多度。

在1700度的高温之下，普通金属是不够耐热的。生产单晶叶片，就一定离不开一种珍贵的稀有金属-铼。






在成都航宇超合金技术有限公司，我们见到了单晶叶片生产中最为关键的金属—铼。这是人类发现最晚的天然元素，因为发现者是德国化学家，因此以莱茵河的名称命名为铼。它在地壳中的含量比所有的稀土元素都小，比钻石更难以获取。*根据美国地质调查局的报告，全球探明的铼储量仅为2500吨左右。铼的价格跟白金的价格相仿，一克大概需要两三百块钱。*

能够提纯铼金属的，是成都航宇超合金技术有限公司的母公司，这是一家上市的矿业公司。2010年，这家公司在其下属的陕西省洛南县黄龙铺钼矿区矿山中斟探到铼，储量达到176吨，约占全球储量的7%，仅次于智利、美国、俄罗斯和哈萨克斯坦。近年来，随着航空工业的发展，铼消费量的年均增长率为3%，虽然价格不菲，却一直处于供不应求的状态。

成都航宇超合金技术有限公司董事长 张政：我们原来最初的想法是把铼生产出来。交给国内的用户。我们每年增加我们的收益，对上市公司就是一个很好的帮助。






美国是最大的铼金属消费国，控制着全球销售市场，一直处于垄断地位。*由于铼可以广泛应用于喷气式发动机和火箭发动机，全球约80%的铼用于生产航空发动机，其在军事战略上有重要意义。为了维持在航空工业的优势地位，美国和其它一些西方国家常年针对中国进行材料和技术封锁。*

成都航宇超合金技术有限公司副总经理 宋阳：它有一些区域是限制中国人进入的，他们不希望这样的一些技术机密，或者是技术信息被中国所了解和掌握。

*越是封锁，就越说明航空发动机的战略重要性，就越需要突破。*矿业公司董事长张政拍板做了一个重要的决定：自己生产用于航空发动机的单晶涡轮叶片。






2012年7月，国务院印发《“十二五”国家战略性新兴产业发展规划》，将航空装备产业列为高端装备制造产业中的第一个项目，明确提出要突破航空发动机核心关键技术，加快推进航空发动机产业化。国家层面大力倡导，*然而生产设备的采购却面临着巨大的困难——国外巨头再次相对中国进行技术封锁，生产设备中的关键环节——热处理炉因为西方国家的封锁卡了壳*

几大航空发动机生产公司所使用的，都是航空工业专用的一级热处理炉。但是因为西方国家的严密封锁，能够生产这类设备的厂商根本无法将设备销售给中国的企业，而国内的企业也只能生产二级炉。






宋阳：二级炉，就是温度差正负5度，从正负3到正负5度，这一点点的差距，设备的结构热处理之后的效果差距是非常明显的。

时间不等人，专家组另辟蹊径，尝试用电子行业的一级热处理炉来替代传统的航空工业一级热处理炉。这种跨行业的混搭在航空发动机的生产领域是一个前所未有的大胆尝试，成功与否谁都没有把握，幸运的是这个炉子比原来想象的，正负3度的偏差更低，它正负只偏差了2.1度，这几乎是比一级炉还要精密。

解决好了热处理炉的问题，但他们紧绷的神经依然没有丝毫放松。因为整条生产线依然还差一台单晶浇铸环节最重要的设备—单晶炉。几经辗转，他们又找到英国一家单晶炉的供应商，提出了定制化要求。

宋阳：刚开始的时候它对于一个中国的厂商能够生产单晶叶片，他们更多是想卖一台设备到中国来，但是并没有想帮助我们把这件事给做成。






2015年7月22日，成都航宇第一批产品出炉，合格率一鸣惊人。这家专业的单晶炉制造商不由得对这位行业新入者另眼相看。

成都航宇超合金技术有限公司董事长张政：这个成品率高到这个炉子的生产商都很高兴，他专门飞过来跟我们庆祝了一次，他做了几十年的这个专业设备，实验性开炉的第一炉产品，做到全球最高的成品率。

成都航宇超合金技术有限公司副总经理宋阳：我觉得中国这么多年的这个经验，凡是国外对中国进行封锁的，靠着我们自己的自力更生艰苦奋斗，我们都能够在这个领域取得突破。

*0.5公斤零件撑起400公斤重量 中国航天器试水3D打印*

为了突破西方对于中国的核心技术封锁，中国的企业家、科学家大胆实践、勇于创新，不仅是造出了被西方国家垄断的铼金属核心部件，还创造出了新的金属制造方式。

2017年9月20日，世界顶尖的金属3D打印设备制造商德国斯棱曼公司与一家中国公司签下了合作协议，与一家中国公司成立联合应用研发中心，将展开针对中国市场的应用研发。






金属材料的3D打印技术门槛高，难度大，附加值高，金属3D打印的产值也占到了整个3D打印行业的80％以上。在金属3D打印方面，西方国家的技术也长期领先于中国。而如今，金属3D打印正在越来越多地出现在中国制造的高端装备上，这让世界领先的企业，也注意到了中国企业在这个方面取得的创新和成就。

中国航天科技集团五院的展厅，浓缩了中国空间飞行器研制的主要成果，这些航天器对于减少重量的要求，可谓是严苛之极，*因为每增加一克的重量，就会给发射带来很高的成本，并且会加大航天项目的复杂性，甚至直接影响到整个方案的可行性。为了减轻每一克的重量，研究人员从材料和结构上想了任何可能的办法。*






中国航天科技集团五院总体部增材制造技术项目经理张啸雨：这个就是我们目前工程上最轻的材料，叫蜂窝夹层结构，这种结构里面全部是蜂窝，然后上下的面用的是碳纤维。这种碳纤维非常昂贵，它的一公斤差不多要比那个同等重量的黄金还要贵一些。

减轻重量是不懈的追求。碳纤维材料，加之蜂窝状的结构，这几乎已经达到了减重的极限，但是工程技术人员对此还是不满意，他们希望重量再降低一些。可是，如何才能实现新的突破呢？






位于北京市昌平区的一间厂房，正在生产着钛合金、铝合金、不锈钢等多种金属的零部件。但是与其它的冶金厂房不同，在这里，记者看不到金属锻造的大型设备，也看不到很多的技术工人操作，只看见一台台3D打印的机器在忙碌地工作着。

这个金属打印技术叫激光选区熔化，使用激光照射预先铺展好的金属粉末，使其成形固定。

经过两天时间，制造过程终于接近尾声，技术人员小心翼翼地将“打印机”中多余的粉末扫去，一个结构非常复杂和精巧的钛金属立方体显现出来。






鑫精合激光科技发展有限公司副总经理孙峰：钛合金在我们冶金行业，是一种非常难成形的一种材料牌号，它的冶金工艺非常的复杂，通过我们这次3D打印工艺，把这么难做的一个钛合金，通过我们3D打印工艺，呈现出这样一个轻量化的结构来。

在制造业中，传统制造的方式是 “减材制造”，它是利用已有的几何模型工件，用工具将材料逐步切削、打磨、减少，最终成为所需要的零件。*而3D打印则恰恰相反，它是根据一个数字三维文件，在一个完全没有任何材料的平面上，一点点逐层打印、添加材料，最终形成一个三维整体，这就是所谓的3D打印，也被称为“增材制造”。*

这样一个边长20厘米左右的立方体，如果用传统的金属铸造工艺制造，重量至少要在5公斤以上，而这个零件的重量却只有0.5公斤，只有以前的十分之一，大大减轻了重量，却具备高强度。孙峰现场给我们做了一个演示。






*将近100公斤的孙峰，整个人站在这个立方体上都没有问题，孙峰告诉我们，它最大的承受力在300到400公斤，那可能是800倍到1000倍的载荷。*

目前，在我国很多飞机、船舶甚至航天器的重要零部件上，都可以见到金属3D打印的身影。无论是飞机、船舶的发动机、零部件，还是运载火箭、空间航天飞行器、无人机等航空航天设备，金属3D打印部件正在悄悄地取代着传统制造的零件，并给航空航天等高端制造提供了更多的可能。航天器上很多大大小小的零件，都可以用这种结构来替代原有的较为笨重的金属。甚至一根头发丝，就可以吊起来一个体积不小的卫星上的小零件。

孙峰：它的轻量化效果非常的好，整个零件它的减重达到了30%以上，它给咱们整个火箭发射这一块，成本节约了几百万，甚至上千万人民币的一个效果。我们传统制造业来说，制造一颗卫星它可能需要几个月甚至几年的时间，通过我们3D打印工艺实现整个卫星的机构，可能只需要十几天的时间，一颗小的卫星可以打出来。

*3D打印作为一项前沿性的先进制造技术，已经成为全球新一轮科技革命和产业革命的重要推动力。*然而，多数的设备和工艺尚不成熟，还无法批量打出稳定、耐用、高性能的工业品来，处在“模型制造”和实验阶段。但是这种情况正在发生变化，我国的金属3D打印正在不断地向尖端制造靠拢。






在鑫精合的厂房里，一个大型的钛合金航天器零件，即将在这台由中国民营企业自主研发的大型金属3D打印机里诞生。

与小型的精密的金属3D打印机的技术不同，大型的打印机采取了另一种不同的技术方式——同轴送粉工艺。而中国在这项技术上已经走在了世界的先列。目前，能用3D打印技术制造出达到锻造水平的金属部件的国家，只有德国、美国、中国等少数几个。而鑫精合批量制造大型钛金属结构件的能力已经在国际领先。

这种激光“打印”金属粉末的工艺，使得金属材料冷却凝固速度极快，组织细小，力学性能优异，也具备了像锻件一样的高强度。






直径4米的航天器部件拆分成6个2米左右的大零件，3D打印并加工后，再进行整体焊接。*在过去，这样巨大的金属件从开模具到锻造，再到机械加工，是个非常浩大的工程，通常需要一年时间才能完成，而用3D打印的方式，仅需要3-6个月。*

张啸雨：可能我们最快的在明年，或者是后年都会有发射的型号来去做这样的一个尝试。我们大概现在有60件到100件的产品已经是在完成了制造，而且已经开始装星，已经开始做整星级的力学实验。

当前，我国在创新能力建设方面持续发力，迎来了收获果实的时节。中国科技整体能力正从以跟踪为主到跟踪和并跑、领跑并存的新阶段，我们相信，加速前行的中国创新将会给我们带来越来越多的惊喜。

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## rcrmj

I just want to clearify the types of WS TH engines we have at the moment````(in serivce, in development)

for air force
WS-10A hunderds in serivce, *12.5 T thrust*, on J-11B
WS-10B start entering production, *13.5 T thrust*, for future J10 series (cannot use on Chinese flankers, as its engine crankcase is underneath of the main budy)
WS-10ipe/J all testing is about to end, *14.1 T thrust*, J-16s``````

for navy
WS-10H```similar to 10A, 

to our fans, our turbofan engine industry *started at very late stage*, in order to shorten the gap with U.S and Russia, *we need short cuts. WS-10 is the result of this short cut policy!*```its CFM56 "style" core, F110's "architect"```Russian "standard" of low pressure stage and AL31f's "style" control mechanism and liquid supply system etc, during the period, 2005 (first inducted) to 2016, 606 went through very tough time```until to this day, there is still no personnel from this team has been nominated for "service and contribution distinction" reward``````but soon, thats what I heard, someone will be "nominated"`````the institution is gethering materils for incoming PR compaign now!

until all of these *"key" projects* are finalized, than we can safely to say that we are 30 years behine the U.S```and the real deal is WS-15, as *it is the first Turbofan engine that we start with our own, inside out! *(only a minor data collection outsource jobs to Russia's CIAM, to check the consistency of the same data calculated and collected from our end). WS-15 will bring us only 10 years after the U.S (those professors like to use "how many years" to describe the gap between China and U.S``I guess its thier layman's method )

so still long way ahead of us```be humble but not pessimistic``
@cirr @Asoka @Deino @ChineseTiger1986 @Figaro

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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> I just want to clearify the types of WS TH engines we have at the moment````(in serivce, in development)
> 
> for air force
> WS-10A hunderds in serivce, *12.5 T thrust*, on J-11B
> WS-10B start entering production, *13.5 T thrust*, for future J10 series (cannot use on Chinese flankers, as its engine crankcase is underneath of the main budy)
> WS-10ipe/J all testing is about to end, *14.1 T thrust*, J-16s``````
> 
> for navy
> WS-10H```similar to 10A,
> 
> to our fans, our turbofan engine industry *started at very late stage*, in order to shorten the gap with U.S and Russia, *we need short cuts. WS-10 is the result of this short cut policy!*```its CFM56 "style" core, F110's "architect"```Russian "standard" of low pressure stage and AL31f's "style" control mechanism and liquid supply system etc, during the period, 2005 (first inducted) to 2016, 606 went through very tough time```until to this day, there is still no personnel from this team has been nominated for "service and contribution distinction" reward``````but soon, thats what I heard, someone will be "nominated"`````the institution is gethering materils for incoming PR compaign now!
> 
> until all of these *"key" projects* are finalized, than we can safely to say that we are 30 years behine the U.S```and the real deal is WS-15, as *it is the first Turbofan engine that we start with our own, inside out! *(only a minor data collection outsource jobs to Russia's CIAM, to check the consistency of the same data calculated and collected from our end). WS-15 will bring us only 10 years after the U.S (those professors like to use "how many years" to describe the gap between China and U.S``I guess its thier layman's method )
> 
> so still long way ahead of us```be humble but not pessimistic``
> @cirr @Asoka @Deino @ChineseTiger1986 @Figaro



Can the WS-10IPE be used aboard the J-11D & J-10D?


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> Can the WS-10IPE be used aboard the J-11D & J-10D?


I dont know about that````


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> I dont know about that````



How about the WS-19 for future shipborne versions of FC-31?


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> How about the WS-19 for future shipborne versions of FC-31?


the official shipborne 5th gen stealth fighter has not been revealed yet, how can you be sure of that?

as far as I know H20 is going to have its own turbofan engine```could be a new model that is based on WS-10's core```but the problem facing them now is how to reduce the tempreture of exhasut nozzle dramatically, so they have to work really hard on low pressure part/chamber``````they have strict requirement on Long range, all round stealth and AI ``````I hope I didnt cross the line``


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> the official shipborne 5th gen stealth fighter has not been revealed yet, how can you be sure of that?
> 
> as far as I know H20 is going to have its own turbofan engine```could be a new model that is based on WS-10's core```but the problem facing them now is how to reduce the tempreture of exhasut nozzle dramatically, so they have to work really hard on low pressure part/chamber``````they have strict requirement on Long range, all round stealth and AI ``````I hope I didnt cross the line``



Not going to imply that it is definitely the shipborne 5th gen jet, but it is likely one of the contenders, and in order to make the platform as attractive as possible, they would need a new engine (WS-19 is what it's called, according to rumors).

The H-20 could be initially equipped with the D-30 (or a derivative) and refurbish with its own customized turbofan once the latter is ready.


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> Not going to imply that it is definitely the shipborne 5th gen jet, but it is likely one of the contenders, and in order to make the platform as attractive as possible, they would need a new engine (WS-19 is what it's called, according to rumors).
> 
> The *H-20 could be initially equipped with the D-30 (or a derivative) and refurbish with its own customized turbofan once the latter is ready.*



where did you get that info, or just your thought of convenience?


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> where did you get that info, or just your thought of convenience?



Unless there are size restrictions or incompatible locations of the engine gearbox, why can't this be a possibility? It is perfectly customary for large aircraft to complete flight testing with "mature" engines.


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## Figaro

messiach said:


> WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.


This information is inaccurate. WS-15 has already completed most ground tests ... and is currently being prepared for flight testing. I don’t believe there have been any problems with WS-15’s compressors or combustor ... the main problem used to lie in the single crystal blade production which was rectified in recent years. The core has already passed testing and a full scale engine prototype was built 4 years ago.



Deino said:


> You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.
> 
> The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.
> 
> 
> By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).
> 
> Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:
> 
> The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".
> 
> Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).
> 
> Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.
> 
> All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.
> 
> In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.
> 
> Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.
> 
> As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.
> 
> So long,
> Deino
> 
> *PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)*


_*and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). *_
Liming is not the same institute as 606. Shenyang Liming is the manufacturer of the WS-10 and was responsible for a lot of the early defects/reliability issues. 606 is the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, which bears no connection with Shenyang Liming. The manufacturing of the WS-15 will be done by XAC (Xian Aeroengine Corporation), not Liming given the WS-10 problems.

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## messiach

You can be right here. I had some involvement with SF-A15 core but that information is atleast from 2008-09. 



Figaro said:


> This information is inaccurate. WS-15 has already completed most ground tests ... and is currently being prepared for flight testing. I don’t believe there have been any problems with WS-15’s compressors or combustor ... the main problem used to lie in the single crystal blade production which was rectified in recent years. The core has already passed testing and a full scale engine prototype was built 4 years ago.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943739291749949440

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943739291749949440



I wonder how he arrived at that conclusion.


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## clarkgap

In Yanliang, the Il-76 was testing a WS-20.

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## samsara

The IL-76LL aerial engine testing machine equipped with *WS-20 engine*. The development of WS-20 engine is nearly completed, it seems that we will start the on-board test to Y-20 nearby.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/944024337249644544。。。

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## Maxpane

an news about ws 10


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## clarkgap

Looks like there are two type of AVEN design, one is testing on J-10, another was operated by Chairman Jiang.

The first type of AVEN, which is testing on J-10:






From a Journal












The second type of AVEN, which was patented by AVIC Shengyang Liming Aero-engine Group.

Liming's Patent Application

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## clarkgap

Figaro said:


> So the MATV type is the one currently being tested on the J-10?


 
Maybe both of them.


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## Han Patriot

clarkgap said:


> Looks like there are two type of AVEN design, one is testing on J-10, another was operated by Chairman Jiang.
> 
> The first type of AVEN, which is testing on J-10:
> 
> View attachment 444879
> 
> 
> From a Journal
> View attachment 444876
> 
> View attachment 444877
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second type of AVEN, which was patented by AVIC Shengyang Liming Aero-engine Group.
> 
> Liming's Patent Application
> View attachment 444880
> 
> View attachment 444881
> 
> View attachment 444882
> 
> 
> View attachment 444874
> 
> View attachment 444875
> 
> View attachment 444878


Look at the military attire, if it's during Uncle Jiang's time, it meant they had a functioning prototype 15 years ago.

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## Han Patriot

Figaro said:


> It's probably just a demonstrator than an actual prototype ... it wouldn't take 15 years for China to implement TVC


Actually, it would take that long since the domestic engine was not mature enough to mount such a mechanism.


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## Figaro

Han Patriot said:


> Actually, it would take that long since the domestic engine was not mature enough to mount such a mechanism.


I don't doubt it but I find it highly unlikely that the Chinese had a working prototype during Jiang Zemin's era ... to have a working TVC before the completion of WS-10 in the mid 2000s is unlikely. Maybe 5 years ago but 15 sounds too far of a stretch ... and it makes sense given the state of the Chinese engine industry then and now.

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## cirr

The first demonstrator engine CJ-1000AX completed assembly on 25.12.2017






http://zbs.miit.gov.cn/n1146285/n1146352/n3054355/n3057585/n3057589/c5995890/content.html

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## clarkgap

cirr said:


> The first demonstrator engine CJ-1000AX completed assembly on 25.12.2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://zbs.miit.gov.cn/n1146285/n1146352/n3054355/n3057585/n3057589/c5995890/content.html



Imgae (your link of image has some problem)

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> Image (your link has some problem)




Full info page 
http://www.acae.com.cn/portal/Engine/Index_2.aspx

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## GiantPanda

CJ-1000A will win out over SF-A and keep ACAE as a viable and independent organization as opposed to being pulled into the larger, military oriented AECC. The competition is good for China.

Either project is historic.


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## Deino

GiantPanda said:


> CJ-1000A will win out over SF-A and keep ACAE as a viable and independent organization as opposed to being pulled into the larger, military oriented AECC. The competition is good for China.
> 
> Either project is historic.




What's the status of the SF-A? ... and it is developed by whom?


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> What's the status of the SF-A? ... and it is developed by whom?



SF-A is believed to be a civilian version of WS-20, which matches the older generation of CFM56. SF-B refers to CJ-1000 series which would sort of match LEAP although the specification will still be lower. 

SF-A was heard being rejected by the end user, ie. COMAC.

Although CJ-1000 will have lower specification when it enters market, Chinese government is rumored to guarantee its 30% to 50% installation percentage to the C919 planes. The other 50% to 70% will be filled by LEAP.

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## Figaro

CJ-1000AX

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## ZeEa5KPul

China in talks for sale of jet engine technology to Germany:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...hina-talks-sale-jet-engine-technology-germany


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## clarkgap

I guess Swiss do not care U.S.'s policies.

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## HannibalBarca

clarkgap said:


> I guess Swiss do not care U.S.'s policies.


They didn't care the Nazi policies...let alone the US's...


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## Grandy

The chief test pilot of the J-10 recently has revealed the fact that the current J-20 engine is indeed the WS-15, it is impossible to be the WS-10B or something else.

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## atan651

That would be a most welcoming news, although I love to see some affirmation on that claim.!


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## clarkgap

Grandy said:


> The chief test pilot of the J-10 recently has revealed the fact that the current J-20 engine is indeed the WS-15, it is impossible to be the WS-10B or something else.



Source?

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## Ultima Thule

Figaro said:


> @ 22:00


just a speculations nothing else, and its in testing phase might be ready in 2023 as predicted by senior Chinese members here on PDF @Figaro


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## Han Patriot

Guys, how can we miss this news. 24:00 onwards, those who can understand Chinese would jump in hysteria. They are producing the 'world's first single crystal titanium alloy' (please translate properly for me) for Rolls Royce, 100 pcs to be delivered by end of 2018. Germans theoretically calculated that this is impossible, they proved them wrong with 10 years of research.

http://www.austria-scitech-china.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMR_Presentation-2015_EN.pdf

Based on above pdf, these are LP blades for the TRENT XWB engine.

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## kuge

the world vs china....?


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## Cybernetics

Han Patriot said:


> Guys, how can we miss this news. 24:00 onwards, those who can understand Chinese would jump in hysteria. They are producing the 'world's first single crystal titanium alloy' (please translate properly for me) for Rolls Royce, 100 pcs to be delivered by end of 2018. Germans theoretically calculated that this is impossible, they proved them wrong with 10 years of research.
> 
> http://www.austria-scitech-china.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMR_Presentation-2015_EN.pdf
> 
> Based on above pdf, these are LP blades for the TRENT XWB engine.
















http://www.austria-scitech-china.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMR_Presentation-2015_EN.pdf

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## leapx

Han Patriot said:


> Guys, how can we miss this news. 24:00 onwards, those who can understand Chinese would jump in hysteria. They are producing the 'world's first single crystal titanium alloy' (please translate properly for me) for Rolls Royce, 100 pcs to be delivered by end of 2018. Germans theoretically calculated that this is impossible, they proved them wrong with 10 years of research.
> 
> http://www.austria-scitech-china.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMR_Presentation-2015_EN.pdf
> 
> Based on above pdf, these are LP blades for the TRENT XWB engine.


MTU is probably the first company to manufacturer LPT blades with TiAl alloy. Those blades are for GTF/PW1000 series. MTU is the OEM of GTF/PW1000 LPT module.

Also CFMI introduce TiAl alloy for its LEAP-X engine LPT.

It seems they will face some serious competition.

Well done IMR and great news for CJ-1000 projet.

A little Tip: engine for commercial jet will has higher by-pass ratio. Thus a bigger/heavier LPT with more stages is needed to drive a bigger fan, that is what LEAP-X,CJ-1000 and PD-14 do. GTF/PW1000 is different, it use a faster LPT to drive fan through a gearbox. But they all need a lighter/stronger material for LPT.

Again great news. I am proud

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## Han Patriot

leapx said:


> MTU is probably the first company to manufacturer LPT blades with TiAl alloy. Those blades are for GTF/PW1000 series. MTU is the OEM of GTF/PW1000 LPT module.
> 
> Also CFMI introduce TiAl alloy for its LEAP-X engine LPT.
> 
> It seems they will face some serious competition.
> 
> Well done IMR and great news for CJ-1000 projet.
> 
> A little Tip: engine for commercial jet will has higher by-pass ratio. Thus a bigger/heavier LPT with more stages is needed to drive a bigger fan, that is what LEAP-X,CJ-1000 and PD-14 do. GTF/PW1000 is different, it use a faster LPT to drive fan through a gearbox. But they all need a lighter/stronger material for LPT.
> 
> Again great news. I am proud


They were the first to produce single cast TiAi blades. Apparently thought impossible until this breakthrough.

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## leapx

Han Patriot said:


> They were the first to produce single cast TiAi blades. Apparently thought impossible until this breakthrough.


A small mistake， it is TiAl (Titanium aluminum alloy)；I do not find the information of single crystal.

To my understanding，single crystal casting is usually for HPT blades.

I do not think Titanium alloy can be used as HPT blades yet，also single crystal casting is too expensive for LPT blades（for example，leap—x has two stages HPT but 7 stages LPT, although usually a LPT blade segment include several blades）。


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## Han Patriot

leapx said:


> A small mistake， it is TiAl (Titanium aluminum alloy)；I do not find the information of single crystal.
> 
> To my understanding，single crystal casting is usually for HPT blades.
> 
> I do not think Titanium alloy can be used as HPT blades yet，also single crystal casting is too expensive for LPT blades（for example，leap—x has two stages HPT but 7 stages LPT, although usually a LPT blade segment include several blades）。


Yah, it's not single crystal, rather single casted piece. Existing technology does not allow single piece casting, China developed a new method to cast the blade in one single piece. The first in the world.

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## leapx

Han Patriot said:


> Yah, it's not single crystal, rather single casted piece. Existing technology does not allow single piece casting, China developed a new method to cast the blade in one single piece. The first in the world.



I made a mistake. It is nozzle segment including several vane. Blade is usaully single piece. 

Sorry for any confusion.


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## Han Patriot

leapx said:


> I made a mistake. It is nozzle segment including several vane. Blade is usaully single piece.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion.


I watched the documentary again, I think before this breakthrough it was impossible to single cast a >200mm long TiAl blade. German scientist used mathematical modelling to prove it was imposssible, but the Chinese side managed to produce the World's first Single Casted TiAl blade >200mm. They are supposed to finish manufacturing for RR by end 2018.

Btw, another breakthrough was the cooling holes laser machining process. Previously the holes were casted together when they fabricate the blades based on RR documentary. I think China managed to develop a very precise laser machining machine which even the Germans are interested.

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## leapx

Han Patriot said:


> I watched the documentary again, I think before this breakthrough it was impossible to single cast a >200mm long TiAl blade. German scientist used mathematical modelling to prove it was imposssible, but the Chinese side managed to produce the World's first Single Casted TiAl blade >200mm. They are supposed to finish manufacturing for RR by end 2018.
> 
> Btw, another breakthrough was the cooling holes laser machining process. Previously the holes were casted together when they fabricate the blades based on RR documentary. I think China managed to develop a very precise laser machining machine which even the Germans are interested.



thanks a lot for the detailed information.


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## Cybernetics

1600kW class turbo-shaft engine for Z-20 helicopter

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## leapx

Anybody posted this？ some detail how IMR build Ti-Al blades for RR.

http://www.sohu.com/a/219884848_349256

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## Nan Yang

leapx said:


> Anybody posted this？ some detail how IMR build Ti-Al blades for RR.
> 
> http://www.sohu.com/a/219884848_349256


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-reinvents-itself.541753/

Its in episode 3.

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## Figaro



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## cirr



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## Maxpane

cirr said:


>


Not showing


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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> Not showing



Must be this one...

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> Must be this one...
> 
> View attachment 468251


Thank you sir


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## Grandy




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## Figaro

Grandy said:


> View attachment 472468


Dude, did you even watch the video you just posted? It clearly shows the F-119 and the F-22 (with a English narrator!) ... which has nothing to do with the Chinese engine industry at all. I’ll give you a hint ... a leak of the WS-15 will likely not come from a short/crappy YouTube video.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Update from pupu on WS-15: 涡扇15进展很好，不用担心。
http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1902972&page=2&authorid=1988
I guess we shouldn't worry.

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## 帅的一匹

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Update from pupu on WS-15: 涡扇15进展很好，不用担心。
> http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1902972&page=2&authorid=1988
> I guess we shouldn't worry.


J20 with WS15 engine will dominate the sky in Asia.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Update from pupu on WS-15: 涡扇15进展很好，不用担心。
> http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1902972&page=2&authorid=1988
> I guess we shouldn't worry.


Very reliving words ... especially since it is from Pupu, the largest shrimp in the Chinese engine industry.



wanglaokan said:


> J20 with WS15 engine will dominate the sky in Asia.


Even with an advanced WS-10 variant, the J-20 is poised to dominate the sky in Asia ... with only the F-35 and F-22 being on equal footing. Even 4++ generation fighters would stand no chance ...

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## Akasa

Hong Kong news: WS-15 *exploded*

Should China import the Kaveri engine?


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## Figaro

Akasa said:


> Hong Kong news: WS-15 *exploded*
> 
> Should China import the Kaveri engine?


Duhhh. Isn't this a no brainer? China DEFINETLY needs thrust to weight ratio 25 Kaveri superengine! It uses the highest quality single crystal superalloys on the planet, incorporates super-materials, has 4D thrust vectoring, and produces over 300 kN of thrust. I'm sure that AVIC is willing to pay anything for this super-weapon. After that, the Chinese will attempt to reverse engineer the Kaveri ... only to fail miserably as their previous efforts have shown. You can bet that in the future, even Pratt and Whitney will be beginning for India's assistance in this field. All hail Modi and Indian technologically supremacy 


On a more serious note, what are you smoking man?

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## ZeEa5KPul

Via Hendrik from SDF - WZ-16 turboshaft engine to receive certification and enter production next year:

红网时刻株洲5月11日讯(记者 聂千川)备受军迷关注的涡轴-16(代号：WZ-16)发动机将于明年生产下线。5月11日，记者从中国航空发动机集团(以下简称中国航发)在湖南株洲召开民用涡轴涡桨发动机2018年度供应商(国际)大会获得上述消息。

据中国航发工作人员透露，涡轴-16发动机将于明年取得生产合格证(PC)，并正式投产。涡轴-16是中国航发与法国赛峰直升机发动机公司合研的中等推力涡轴发动机，双方共享知识产权。涡轴-16型发动机技术先进，采模块化设计，双通道全数字式电子控制，高可靠性，重量轻，油耗低，是第四代技术水准的发动机。功率达到1200至1500千瓦，超过加拿大生产的PT6C-67C涡轴发动机。

根据计划，涡轴-16将首先装备中航直升机股份有限公司生产的AC352直升机上。坊间普遍认为，涡轴-16未来装备武直-10的可能性非常大。

我国在研制武直-10时，选用的是两台PT6C-67C涡轴发动机，由于多种原因，未能如愿。目前，武直-10使用的是国产涡轴-9型发动机，其功率仅为1000千瓦左右，性能存在不足。涡轴-16研制成功后，如果能再次整合到武直-10项目中，能令武直-10的性能成倍跃升，或能从中型武装直升机一跃成为与阿帕奇比肩的重型武装直升机。

https://m.rednet.cn/detail.asp?id=4624904

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## yusheng

http://www.miit.gov.cn/n1146290/n1146402/n1146455/c6178455/content.html








Large passenger engine first successful ignition machine verification
Date of release: 2018-05-18 

source:





baidu translation:

Recently, large passenger demonstrator engine independently developed in China (CJ-1000AX) made the first successful ignition in Shanghai, the core speed up to 6600rpm.

Aero Engine Corporation of China is responsible for the development of CJ-1000AX, last December 2017 the company completed the first engine assembly; by overcoming many difficulties in the first new engine on connection debugging, in March 30th at the Shanghai final assembly testing bench has finished all commissioning debugging. In April 3rd testing evaluation passed; after implementing the various representative expert opinions and suggestions, the first time ignition succeeded recently, preliminaryly validated of the various components and related functions of the engine system, the follow-up will be carried out preliminary performance tests.

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## cirr

yusheng said:


> http://www.miit.gov.cn/n1146290/n1146402/n1146455/c6178455/content.html
> 
> View attachment 475168
> 
> 
> 
> Large passenger engine first successful ignition machine verification
> Date of release: 2018-05-18
> 
> source:
> 
> View attachment 475169
> 
> baidu translation:
> 
> Recently, large passenger demonstrator engine independently developed in China (CJ-1000AX) made the first successful ignition in Shanghai, the core speed up to 6600rpm.
> 
> Aero Engine Corporation of China is responsible for the development of CJ-1000AX, last December 2017 the company completed the first engine assembly; by overcoming many difficulties in the first new engine on connection debugging, in March 30th at the Shanghai final assembly testing bench has finished all commissioning debugging. In April 3rd testing evaluation passed; after implementing the various representative expert opinions and suggestions, the first time ignition succeeded recently, preliminaryly validated of the various components and related functions of the engine system, the follow-up will be carried out preliminary performance tests.



*China's self-developed plane engine completes test run*

2018-05-21 02:26 Xinhua _Editor: Wang Fan _

China's self-developed demonstrator aircraft engine CJ-1000AX has completed a successful test run in Shanghai, the engine maker said Sunday.

AECC Commercial Aircraft Engine Co. Ltd. (ACAE) designed CJ-1000AX for China's homemade large C919 passenger jet, developed to rival global leading airliners such as Airbus A320 and Boeing B737.

The engine reached a rotational speed of up to 6,600 revolutions per minute in the test run, ACAE said.

The company inked a deal with Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, the maker of the C919 jetliner, on developing its engine system in December 2016, and completed assembling CJ-1000AX in December, 2017.

ACAE has more than 110 global and domestic partners in commercial aircraft engine industry.

http://www.ecns.cn/2018/05-21/303233.shtml

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## ZeEa5KPul

cirr said:


> *China's self-developed plane engine completes test run*
> 
> 2018-05-21 02:26 Xinhua _Editor: Wang Fan _
> 
> China's self-developed demonstrator aircraft engine CJ-1000AX has completed a successful test run in Shanghai, the engine maker said Sunday.
> 
> AECC Commercial Aircraft Engine Co. Ltd. (ACAE) designed CJ-1000AX for China's homemade large C919 passenger jet, developed to rival global leading airliners such as Airbus A320 and Boeing B737.
> 
> The engine reached a rotational speed of up to 6,600 revolutions per minute in the test run, ACAE said.
> 
> The company inked a deal with Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, the maker of the C919 jetliner, on developing its engine system in December 2016, and completed assembling CJ-1000AX in December, 2017.
> 
> ACAE has more than 110 global and domestic partners in commercial aircraft engine industry.
> 
> http://www.ecns.cn/2018/05-21/303233.shtml


@cirr, I've read rumours that the CJ-1000AX contains some European parts, what do you make of that?


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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> @cirr, I've read rumours that the CJ-1000AX contains some European parts, what do you make of that?


Could you elaborate which parts? I’ve never heard that the CJ-1000 engine ever contained European parts ... it was only the C-919 which contained European parts. The rumors sound highly unlikely ...

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> Could you elaborate which parts? I’ve never heard that the CJ-1000 engine ever contained European parts ... it was only the C-919 which contained European parts. The rumors sound highly unlikely ...


I don't recall exactly where I heard that, I'm afraid. The context was a comparison between CJ-1000 and SF-A (the civilian WS-20, I think). It was noted that CJ-1000 was a more fuel-efficient design but that it couldn't be used for military aircraft because some parts were European. I don't know if that's true or, if so, what parts come from Europe, but it raises a good point - why not use the CJ-1000 on the Y-20 and extend its range?


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## 帅的一匹

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I don't recall exactly where I heard that, I'm afraid. The context was a comparison between CJ-1000 and SF-A (the civilian WS-20, I think). It was noted that CJ-1000 was a more fuel-efficient design but that it couldn't be used for military aircraft because some parts were European. I don't know if that's true or, if so, what parts come from Europe, but it raises a good point - why not use the CJ-1000 on the Y-20 and extend its range?


WS20 and CJ-1000 is different. One is domestic military engine another is for civilian purpose.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I don't recall exactly where I heard that, I'm afraid. The context was a comparison between CJ-1000 and SF-A (the civilian WS-20, I think). It was noted that CJ-1000 was a more fuel-efficient design but that it couldn't be used for military aircraft because some parts were European. I don't know if that's true or, if so, what parts come from Europe, but it raises a good point - why not use the CJ-1000 on the Y-20 and extend its range?


SF-A is allegedly a civilian version of the WS-15 core ... although it has never been confirmed. But I highly doubt China needs European parts or European countries would ever sell engine parts, which could be dual use. The WS-20 and CJ-1000 are completely different designs ... one uses the WS-10 core while the other is a clean sheet design.


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## LKJ86

WS-10

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## j20blackdragon

I find it strange that the Su-30MKK using *AL-31F* produces a blue flame afterburner.






Ukrainian Su-27 using *AL-31F* produces an orange flame.






The Su-30MK '502' prototype using *AL-31F* produces an orange flame.






The Su-34 using *AL-31FM1* produces a blue flame, but there is no evidence that *AL-31FM1* was ever sold to China. 






AL-31FN cannot be used by the Flanker.
AL-31FP was never sold to China.

Does anyone have some EARLY pictures of the Su-30MKK so we can verify the afterburner flame color?

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## nang2

j20blackdragon said:


> I find it strange that the Su-30MKK using *AL-31F* produces a blue flame afterburner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian Su-27 using *AL-31F* produces an orange flame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Su-30MK '502' prototype using *AL-31F* produces an orange flame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Su-34 using *AL-31FM1* produces a blue flame, but there is no evidence that *AL-31FM1* was ever sold to China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AL-31FN cannot be used by the Flanker.
> AL-31FP was never sold to China.
> 
> Does anyone have some EARLY pictures of the Su-30MKK so we can verify the afterburner flame color?


Is the flame color determined by the engine or the fuel it uses?


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## ZeEa5KPul

nang2 said:


> Is the flame color determined by the engine or the fuel it uses?


I think it's about the fuel/air mixture. A more efficient mixture (with the afterburner fuel combusted completely) will burn blue, while a less efficient mixture (more fuel than air) will result in an incomplete combustion and soot, which will burn orange.


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## Deino

I think these four images are not comparable since in #1 & #4 the engine uses simple dry thrust and the flame is blue without a visible long orange flame, while in #2 & #3 the engine uses full reheat.


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## Armchair

@Deino do you know if the HS-5 engine is still in production or not? I believe its an improved Soviet rotary engine.


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## Deino

HS-5 ??? ... never heard of.

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Exflrcg0xgb6g5JUoBUqtQ

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## 帅的一匹

it takes another 20 years to become super power.

it takes another 20 years to become super power.


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## LKJ86




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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 482473
> 
> View attachment 482474
> 
> View attachment 482475



Translation, please?


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## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> Translation, please?


1. WS-13 is prepared for export.
2. PLAN is interested in WS-13E.
3. It is said that SAC is competing with CAC for the carrier-based fighter.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> 1. WS-13 is prepared for export.
> 2. PLAN is interested in WS-13E.
> 3. It is said that SAC is competing with CAC for the carrier-based fighter.



If PLAN is interested in WS-13E, then how come CAC is able to compete? The only jet that can use WS-13E in this case would be the FC-31.


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## 帅的一匹

Akasa said:


> If PLAN is interested in WS-13E, then how come CAC is able to compete? The only jet that can use WS-13E in this case would be the FC-31.


everyone customer has inclination. competition is a formal process cant be skipped.

personally i think J31 is the best fit for new generation carrier. CAC doesnt need to reinvent the wheel to grab SAC's business.

its a waste of resource.


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## Figaro

*中国航空发动机集团沈阳发动机研究所总设计师刘永泉——*

*一颗“中国心” 航空添动力*

*来源：人民日报 发布时间：2018-07-02 16:50 *
*分享*

　　由中国航空发动机集团研制生产的多款新型航空发动机近日集体亮相重庆高交会……中国航发正致力于打造从研制到生产的全产业链，航空发动机稳步行走在“由弱到强”的新发展阶段。

　　“航空发动机的春天来了，我相信只要脚踏实地，自主突破关键技术是早晚的事。”中国航空发动机集团沈阳发动机研究所总设计师刘永泉，作为新一代航发领军人，接过了带领中国航空发动机走向“由弱到强”的接力棒。

*　　“必须振作精神，马上全身心投入攻关排故”*

　　“航空发动机是我们国家的薄弱环节，学这个将来会有发展。”高考之后物理老师的一句话，在年轻的刘永泉心上扎了根。在志愿表上，他满怀憧憬地写上了西北工业大学发动机系。

　　“一入航空深似海”。本科毕业后，刘永泉进入了我国航空发动机设计研究所里成立最早、实力最强的动力所，其间又赴北京航空航天大学动力系攻读硕士学位，之后再次回到所里主持科研设计。这一干，就是34年。“干了多年之后，发现自己的喜怒哀乐，基本都围绕着航空发动机，感觉这辈子再也离不开这个行业了。”刘永泉说，此后他研制航空动力“中国心”的道路，越走越坚定……

　　“冬天从所里到试验基地去做试验，技术人员要坐着半敞开的‘大篷车’，1个小时车程后，人冻得像冰棍一样，但一下车，都毫无怨言地马上投入工作。”刘永泉这样描述上世纪80年代艰苦的工作条件，“当时我们的试车台都很简易，没有消音塔，近距离噪音高达150分贝，贴着耳根说话根本听不见，感觉心脏随时要跳出来，周边3公里范围内都能听到试车声。”……很多试验设备、试验器材都是动力所的人亲手从荒地上建起来的。

　　*如今，现代化的试验设施林立，先进的技术被广泛应用。在刘永泉的带领下，动力所不断挑战新的技术要求，航空发动机部件的设计、系统的设计、系统和发动机的匹配、发动机和飞机的匹配以及工艺、材料等方面的水平大为提升了，突破了数十项关键技术。刘永泉带领团队为攻克制约型号研制的重大共性难题——整机振动技术，创新性地提出发展整机动力学，为解决国产航空发动机使用中的振动问题、加快国产航空发动机技术成熟以及后续发动机的研制奠定了坚实的基础，开辟了新的途径。*

　　回顾34年航发生涯，刘永泉说，“酸甜苦辣咸，五味俱全”。每逢重大工程获得进展、重大节点如期实现，他都会涌起满满的成就感，但面对一个个接踵而至的问题，焦虑也随之而来，“必须振作精神，马上全身心投入攻关排故。”刘永泉说，多少次咬着牙负重前行，都是为了航空发动机低沉的轰鸣声响彻云霄……

*　　“党员同志起到了先锋模范作用”*

　　在刘永泉看来，作为总师，将研发队伍拧成一股绳，也需要讲究科学方法。

　　在“太行”发动机设计定型的阶段，刘永泉组织各团队召开了第一次攻关会。“会上，我发现一些队员多少有点情绪，他们认为问题出在对方身上。”各打五十大板还是劝解？刘永泉另辟蹊径，选择从根子上找原因、解决问题。

　　“我把攻关难题重新定性。比如说原来定性为控制系统的问题，根据实际情况把它定性为控制系统与发动机匹配的问题。”刘永泉说，航空发动机由各个复杂的技术环节构成，任何一个问题都不是孤立的，需要各个系统协同解决。这样一来，团队不仅找到了难题的根本所在，有了积极的解决方法，内部的职责也更加明确，整体工作氛围得到很大改善。

　　刘永泉主张并践行“技术民主”，听取团队每个成员的意见，最终形成技术决策；他注重人才培养，对于一些肯钻研、勤奋积极的年轻人，精神鼓励之外也给予实际奖励；他还鼓励及时总结，带领大家形成阶段性总结经验教训的习惯，团队成员经常找他谈新想法、新思路……

　　“整个团队逐步形成了一种进取心强、坚韧不拔、精益求精的团队精神，随着产品的成熟，团队也在成熟，大家的自豪感、归属感明显增强。”刘永泉说，“这种氛围的形成跟共产党员的理想信念分不开。动力所70%以上的员工都是共产党员，党员同志起到了先锋模范作用。”

*　　“一定要自主研发，仿制不可能吃透”*

　　有人问刘永泉，航空发动机的研制，究竟难在哪儿。刘永泉打了一个形象的比方，“天上飘的云，具体形状难以描述又处在时刻变化中，航空发动机内部的气体流动也是如此，流场状态时刻在变，没法用一个固定的方程来完全准确地描述它。需要通过数据的长期积累，进一步发现发动机运行的规律，修正理论模型，从而攻克关键技术，逐渐逼近‘精确’描述。”

　　刘永泉对我国航空发动机的研制道路思路清晰：首先要重视基础研究，加强流体力学、热力学、材料、加工制造各个领域基础研究，鼓励成功也宽容失败；结合工程实践，在加强工程经验积累的基础上，加强以数字仿真乃至AI（人工智能）技术为代表的技术研发、应用，提高模拟试验的精确度。

　　没有豪言壮语，但刘永泉有一种不动声色的坚定。“一定不能急功近利，要遵循科学规律，脚踏实地，厚积薄发”“一定要自主研发，仿制不可能吃透，更何况我们的目标不仅是追赶”“与此同时也要开放研究，在基础研究等方面寻求行业内外一切可以合作的力量，加速进步”……（记者 赵展慧）

http://www.ccdi.gov.cn/lswh/renwu/201806/t20180628_174629.html

A team led by Chief Designer of Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute (606), Liu Yongquan, has fixed the major vibration problem affecting domestic engines, accelerating the maturity/reliability of existing and future gas turbines. Early last year, there was an official AVIC statement stating that 606's engineers were in the process of fixing a vibration problem associated with their "most important" project, presumably the WS-15. Confirmation of this breakthrough via CCDI is a great sign for the WS-15, especially given the recent silence in information. Hopefully, 606 can iron out the remaining issues and we can witness flight testing soon! For all the flak Shenyang receives, I think they deserve a big congratulations on this one.

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## Aasimkhan

kuge said:


> let see if the used engines smoke after 5yrs of operation...


ha ha u remind me of my fathers old Toyota Corolla 74 which started smoking after 400K on the odometer.


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## ZeEa5KPul

WS-10X with serrated nozzles (engine tested on prototype 2021):

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> WS-10X with serrated nozzles (engine tested on prototype 2021):


Are you sure this is even a Chinese engine? The serrated nozzles doesn't look like those of 2021 and the facility looks Western ...

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## Akasa

ZeEa5KPul said:


> WS-10X with serrated nozzles (engine tested on prototype 2021):



This is the Pratt & Whitney *F135*, as per the company's own website: https://goo.gl/images/DeFgKb

China wishes it had an engine that could even remotely compare with it and so do PDF members, it seems.

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## Aasimkhan

Akasa said:


> This is the Pratt & Whitney *F135*, as per the company's own website: https://goo.gl/images/DeFgKb
> 
> China wishes it had an engine that could even remotely compare with it and so do PDF members, it seems.


it was rumoured china will be assisting Germany in their efforts to build a reliable jet engine, was it confirmed ?


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Have you ever heard about the WS-15??? After being on this forum for almost 10 years ... sigh.



An engine whose core was supposedly tested in 2009 and yet has not even borne a functional prototype? Come on, it's bust.


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## Figaro

Akasa said:


> An engine whose core was supposedly tested in 2009 and yet has not even borne a functional prototype? Come on, it's bust.


Says a guy who has not the slightest clue in the developmental time frame of a T/R 10 gas turbine ... and just because we haven't had news on the WS-15 means it's a bust??? We don't have any new J-20 serial numbers so we should assume it's just a bust??? And yes, the WS-15 does have a functional prototype ... just not one that you would see. Absence of information does not mean absence of development.

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## Deino

Aasimkhan said:


> it was rumoured china will be assisting Germany in their efforts to build a reliable jet engine, was it confirmed ?




No offence, but I'm sure German engine technology is still ahead....


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> No offence, but I'm sure German engine technology is still ahead....


But all German gas turbines are built in collaboration with other European countries (e.g. Rolls Royce). Germany doesn't have a completely domestic engine like France's M-88, so I'm not surprised China would be able to sell some technology to it.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> Are you sure this is even a Chinese engine? The serrated nozzles doesn't look like those of 2021 and the facility looks Western ...


You're right, it's the F135 STOVL variant. I first saw the picture in a Chinese article discussing the J-20 and did an image search and saw only other Chinese websites (you have failed me for the last time, Google...). I compared it to the F135 but I forgot about the STOVL variant.

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## lcloo

Figaro said:


> But all German gas turbines are built in collaboration with other European countries (e.g. Rolls Royce). Germany doesn't have a completely domestic engine like France's M-88, so I'm not surprised China would be able to sell some technology to it.



China was indeed in talks offering to sell turbine blade technology to Germany, the outcome however is not certain, partly due to American pressure.

Link:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...olved-the-one-thing-was-poised-stop-its-24149

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...hina-talks-sale-jet-engine-technology-germany

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> But all German gas turbines are built in collaboration with other European countries (e.g. Rolls Royce). Germany doesn't have a completely domestic engine like France's M-88, so I'm not surprised China would be able to sell some technology to it.



But that does not mean the technology is not available - quite to the contrary it is due to ToT agreements for such collaboration projects - only that certail parts of these engines are built by certain members due to an agreed workshare, the €fighter's EJ200 and the M.400's engine are prime examples. If this is always good is another issue.


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## Aasimkhan

Deino said:


> But that does not mean the technology is not available - quite to the contrary it is due to ToT agreements for such collaboration projects - only that certail parts of these engines are built by certain members due to an agreed workshare, the €fighter's EJ200 and the M.400's engine are prime examples. If this is always good is another issue.


With the Brexit around the corner Germany and Italy must be looking for new partners as Rolls Royce engines will be difficult to collaborate with now. May be China has some extra money to spare in joint research and get hands on few advanced technologies, Germany and China are warming up to each other these days

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> But that does not mean the technology is not available - quite to the contrary it is due to ToT agreements for such collaboration projects - only that certail parts of these engines are built by certain members due to an agreed workshare, the €fighter's EJ200 and the M.400's engine are prime examples. If this is always good is another issue.


If you read the SCMP post closely, you will see it is one specific technology. Europe has an overall more advanced aviation industry than that of China ... but that doesn't mean China can't be ahead in several areas.


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## Aasimkhan

Figaro said:


> If you read the SCMP post closely, you will see it is one specific technology. Europe has an overall more advanced aviation industry than that of China ... but that doesn't mean China can't be ahead in several areas.


China has made a religious effort to improve it's engines technology once it was unable to get it from anywhere else in the world. May be they have acheived a level where they can help others and get something back in return as well.

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## 帅的一匹

Aasimkhan said:


> China has made a religious effort to improve it's engines technology once it was unable to get it from anywhere else in the world. May be they have acheived a level where they can help others and get something back in return as well.


get something in return is a good idea.


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## rcrmj

Deino said:


> No offence, but I'm sure German engine technology is still ahead....


in turbofan tech field, no its not, far from what you believe```institutions of China's defense sector do have few prospective cooperations between Gernamy, mainly from machine tools,```but in terms of high performance turbofan techs, for now, there are U.S, Britan and China```those people dont even look into Russians now``````



Deino said:


> But that does not mean the technology is not available - quite to the contrary it is due to ToT agreements for such collaboration projects - only that certail parts of these engines are built by certain members due to an agreed workshare, the €fighter's EJ200 and the M.400's engine are prime examples. If this is always good is another issue.


contracted part work and supplying parts does not equal to a holistic R&D```like the British's MK202 turbofan engine, that we bought it, got the complete TOT and it only took us few years to build it in late 80s and early 90s (we were quite backward that time``) for our JH-7s```but took us 20 more years for WS-10 to be reliable````engineering and technological advancement is based on years of learnings from mistake and failure, not from TOT or contracted part works or because it is an advanced country (well cant deny the last one does provide better know-how and skilled labour)````

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## LKJ86

What about Japan's domestic turbofan engines?


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## rcrmj

LKJ86 said:


> What about Japan's domestic turbofan engines?


if America provides 100% TOT and data and tech support, they may will come up WS-10B equivalent turbofan engine in 10 years time, they might have better service life time than ours`````but again, they need huge amount of money, 100% tech and data support from America, and on top of that, they also need a complete supply eco-system consist of dozens of highly experienced parts suppliers (which they dont have```)

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## Aasimkhan

rcrmj said:


> if America provides 100% TOT and data and tech support, they may will come up WS-10B equivalent turbofan engine in 10 years time, they might have better service life time than ours`````but again, they need huge amount of money, 100% tech and data support from America, and on top of that, they also need a complete supply eco-system consist of dozens of highly experienced parts suppliers (which they dont have```)


Just like Japanese cars which took over US industry slowly and gradually US will not like Japan to dominate its aerospace industry as well. That is why they dont offer TOT even to their best allies other than Israel (US is slave to Israeli Zionists financially). Only China has the capacity to counter US dominance in aerospace sector.

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## LKJ86




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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 488355
> View attachment 488356
> View attachment 488357


I’m not sure. Last year, Pupu personally stated that the WS-10B has a thrust of 14 tons ... a fact further corroborated by the description plates at Zhuhai 2014. Perhaps there is some designation confusion? The original WS-10A had a thrust of 13,200 kg back in 2007 according to a academic paper written by Taihang’s designer Zhang Enhe ... so something doesn’t add up here.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 488355
> View attachment 488356
> View attachment 488357




Please add a translated summary.


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## cirr

*“航空发动机涡轮叶片复杂异型孔加工系统”通过技术验收*

2018-07-26





航空发动机涡轮叶片复杂异型孔加工系统






http://m.cas.cn/kyjz1/201807/t20180724_4659183.html

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## ZeEa5KPul

cirr said:


> *"Aerospace engine turbine blade complex shaped hole machining system" passed the technical acceptance*
> 
> 2018-07-26
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aeroengine turbine blade complex shaped hole machining system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.cas.cn/kyjz1/201807/t20180724_4659183.html


Is this the technology Germany wanted to purchase?


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## 52051

No one reported this?
http://wemedia.ifeng.com/68933930/wemedia.shtml

There is a big news about engine in China for quite a few weeks:

According to senior fellow of China Academy of Engineering, Liu Daxiang, the R&D of WS-15 going smoothy and will be design-frozen (Chinese term for enter mass production) within 3 to no more than 5 years.

Liu is the most senior researcher in Aero engine department of China, and his opinions can turn into government policy, so he is quite reliable.

Juding by Liu's schedule, WS-15 will be on flight test this year or next year.

So from now on, anything we saw on J-20's new model or maybe even the existing model, could have trace of WS-15.

According to some insiders, some features about WS-15: WS-15 will be looked much more compact/finer crafted and much shorter than WS-10/AL-31F, and it have something called directed-flow control device or whatever (I dont know how to translate the tech term, it is not vectorized thrust in Chinese btw).

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## Figaro

52051 said:


> Juding by Liu's schedule, WS-15 will be on flight test this year or next year.


This is the most anticipated portion ...


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## Deino

52051 said:


> ... and it have something called directed-flow control device or whatever (I dont know how to translate the tech term, it is not vectorized thrust in Chinese btw).



Sounds like Fluidic thrust vectoring?


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## Feng Leng

52051 said:


> No one reported this?
> http://wemedia.ifeng.com/68933930/wemedia.shtml
> 
> There is a big news about engine in China for quite a few weeks:
> 
> According to senior fellow of China Academy of Engineering, Liu Daxiang, the R&D of WS-15 going smoothy and will be design-frozen (Chinese term for enter mass production) within 3 to no more than 5 years.
> 
> Liu is the most senior researcher in Aero engine department of China, and his opinions can turn into government policy, so he is quite reliable.
> 
> Juding by Liu's schedule, WS-15 will be on flight test this year or next year.
> 
> So from now on, anything we saw on J-20's new model or maybe even the existing model, could have trace of WS-15.
> 
> According to some insiders, some features about WS-15: WS-15 will be looked much more compact/finer crafted and much shorter than WS-10/AL-31F, and it have something called directed-flow control device or whatever (I dont know how to translate the tech term, it is not vectorized thrust in Chinese btw).


So J-20B with WS-15 in three to five years. About 30 years behind the US but still good progress. The previous generation engine was 40 years behind the US in the making.

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## Figaro

Feng Leng said:


> So J-20B with WS-15 in three to five years. About 30 years behind the US but still good progress. The previous generation engine was 40 years behind the US in the making.


I don't see a 30 years difference. You have to remember the F-135 (the world's premier aeroengine) is just an upgraded version of the F-119 ... and I'm pretty sure the WS-15 is somewhere in between both engines in terms of performance (especially given the Chinese experience with the WS-10 and Chinese material advancements). So the difference is more like 10-15 years for the initial WS-15.

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## waja2000

Feng Leng said:


> So J-20B with WS-15 in three to five years. About 30 years behind the US but still good progress. The previous generation engine was 40 years behind the US in the making.



Also we hope most importance WS-15 is improve life span, hopefully able reach at lease 3000 hours, US/Europe engine already have 6000+ hours life span.

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## JSCh

*China sets up research center for aero-engine, gas turbine*
Source: Xinhua| 2018-08-01 20:53:32|Editor: ZX




BEIJING, Aug. 1 (Xinhua) -- Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, also known as Beihang University, announced on Wednesday that it had set up a science center focusing on basic scientific research of the aero-engine and gas turbine.

"The Science Center for Gas Turbine was established with nationwide resources to support China's independent innovation in the core domain," said Xu Huibin, president of the university and the center.

The center was jointly established by Tsinghua University, the Institute of Engineering Thermophysics of Chinese Academy of Sciences and multiple major research institutions and enterprises in similar fields.

The center will focus on the fundamental research of the aircraft engine and gas turbine through exploration of core technologies, talent cultivation, and establishment of scientific facilities, Xu said.

The aero-engine has been a perplexing "pain" for China's aviation industry. China has included the aero-engine and gas turbine as part of the country's major scientific and technological projects.

In 2016, China set up the Aero Engine Corporation of China in Beijing, aiming to make it a world-class aircraft engine maker with own innovation.




​

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## samsara

JSCh said:


> *China sets up research center for aero-engine, gas turbine*
> Source: Xinhua| 2018-08-01 20:53:32|Editor: ZX
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BEIJING, Aug. 1 (Xinhua) -- Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, also known as Beihang University, announced on Wednesday that it had set up a science center focusing on basic scientific research of the aero-engine and gas turbine.
> 
> "The Science Center for Gas Turbine was established with nationwide resources to support China's independent innovation in the core domain," said Xu Huibin, president of the university and the center.
> 
> The center was jointly established by Tsinghua University, the Institute of Engineering Thermophysics of Chinese Academy of Sciences and multiple major research institutions and enterprises in similar fields.
> 
> The center will focus on the fundamental research of the aircraft engine and gas turbine through exploration of core technologies, talent cultivation, and establishment of scientific facilities, Xu said.
> 
> The aero-engine has been a perplexing "pain" for China's aviation industry. China has included the aero-engine and gas turbine as part of the country's major scientific and technological projects.
> 
> In 2016, China set up the Aero Engine Corporation of China in Beijing, aiming to make it a world-class aircraft engine maker with own innovation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


The kind of Chinese developments that Trump is trying very hard to impede, at least to delay, currently, possibly at all costs in his latest economic warfare initiatives against China, reducing trade deficits is merely a pretext

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## UKBengali

Feng Leng said:


> So J-20B with WS-15 in three to five years. About 30 years behind the US but still good progress. The previous generation engine was 40 years behind the US in the making.




An expert from the Chinese engine industry stated that in 2010 that China was 30 years behind the US in engine technology. They expect to eliminate the gap by 2040.

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## rcrmj

Figaro said:


> I don't see a 30 years difference. You have to remember the F-135 (the world's premier aeroengine) is just an upgraded version of the F-119 ... and I'm pretty sure the WS-15 is somewhere in between both engines in terms of performance (especially given the Chinese experience with the WS-10 and Chinese material advancements). So the difference is more like 10-15 years for the initial WS-15.


20 years behind the U.S after WS-15 is what those people from institutions generally believe``````its no easy pass mate, no short-cuts in turbo engine field



Feng Leng said:


> So J-20B with WS-15 in three to five years. About 30 years behind the US but still good progress. The previous generation engine was 40 years behind the US in the making.


the total number of J-20 and J-20A would be in 300 - 400 range, WS-15 fitted J-20B would have similar number in total

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## Figaro

UKBengali said:


> An expert from the Chinese engine industry stated that in 2010 that China was 30 years behind the US in engine technology. They expect to eliminate the gap by 2040.


China does not have to match the US ... as long as they can achieve self sufficiency for aero engines across all types of aircraft, then matching the US is not necessary. But yes, the gap is shrinking fast for sure ...

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## ILC

rcrmj said:


> 20 years behind the U.S after WS-15 is what those people from institutions generally believe``````its no easy pass mate, no short-cuts in turbo engine field
> 
> 
> the total number of J-20 and J-20A would be in 300 - 400 range, WS-15 fitted J-20B would have similar number in total


What is the difference between J-20 and J20A ? J20A will be fitted with ws10 engines? 

Do we have any guess what is the production rate of J20 now and in the near future?


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## Figaro

ILC said:


> What is the difference between J-20 and J20A ? J20A will be fitted with ws10 engines?
> 
> Do we have any guess what is the production rate of J20 now and in the near future?


J-20 is fitted with AL-31F, J-20A is fitted with WS-10X found on prototypes 2021/2022, J-20B is fitted with WS-15

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## Figaro

According to Pupu, WS-10B is 14 tons and WS-10IPE is 14.5 tons

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## Deino

This one?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1028651753820975111


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1028651753820975111


IPE is not WS-10B

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## HariPrasad

Chinese aero engine is a Devine engine and will remain in heaven even after earmarking 16 bn USD.


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## Figaro

HariPrasad said:


> Chinese aero engine is a Devine engine and will remain in heaven even after earmarking 16 bn USD.


And how is the magnificent Kaveri engine doing *cough* *cough*. Don’t criticize others for running too slowly when you yourself cannot even walk.

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## jaybird

Making fun of the Chinese engine tech from an Indian guy is just asking for self humiliation. Maybe he should've compared the number of DDGs the PLAN launched to Indian navy. Oops.... never mind.

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## Jlaw

Figaro said:


> And how is the magnificent Kaveri engine doing *cough* *cough*. Don’t criticize others for running too slowly when you yourself cannot even walk.


But India can make her cows fly. They don't need engine.

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## LKJ86

WS-10

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## ZeEa5KPul

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1035556474431463424A rumour that the WS-15 will be flight tested on a J-20 soon. I don't know how reliable Oedo is as a source, but he's always posted nice pictures.

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## cirr

ZeEa5KPul said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1035556474431463424A rumour that the WS-15 will be flight tested on a J-20 soon. I don't know how reliable Oedo is as a source, but he's always posted nice pictures.



How reliable is this then?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...-production-j-20-stealth-fighter-after-engine

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## Figaro

cirr said:


> How reliable is this then?
> 
> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...-production-j-20-stealth-fighter-after-engine


Anything with Minnie Chan's name is almost guaranteed unreliable ...

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## LKJ86

September 6, 2018



















https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/IOyL6N7w7W6N9Ss9zO_aig

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## cirr

20??

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## jaybird

cirr said:


> 20??
> 
> View attachment 499732



It does looks like WS-20 engine. Just for comparison when it was on test bed.
But there seems to be letter US on it? PSed or real?


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## cirr

jaybird said:


> It does looks like WS-20 engine. Just for comparison when it was on test bed.
> View attachment 499737



Quite a few

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## jaybird

cirr said:


> Quite a few



It could also be CFM International LEAP engines for comac C919 you posted on the other thread. But
the paint job color doesn't seem to match comac C919 but similar color to Y-20 paint job. Confusing....


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## Deino

cirr said:


> 20??
> 
> View attachment 499736




Looks IMO really more like for the Y-20, however I'm a bit confused to to the not constant arc but it seems to be slight _/ ... so could it be that these are in fact mock-ups only which will be fitted onto a Y-20 for Zhuhai?

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## cirr

jaybird said:


> It could also be CFM International LEAP engines for comac C919 you posted on the other thread. But
> the paint job color doesn't seem to match comac C919 but similar color to Y-20 paint job. Confusing....



Wrong thread.


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## Deino

After seeing this full-size image I think it is indeed a model/mock up only for a theme park ... on that nacelle there's something written that looks like "US AF" or "US FA"

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## Cybernetics

Deino said:


> After seeing this full-size image I think it is indeed a model/mock up only for a theme park ... on that nacelle there's something written that looks like "US AF" or "US FA"
> 
> View attachment 499921


The sign in the back says "...cultural tourism area welcomes you".

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## lcloo

I think the things we have to ponder is
(1) These trucks do not carry license plates, which meant by law, they are not allow to travel on public roads.
(2) These are heavy trucks with 8 wheels, so the engine must be quite heavy.
(3) The billboard at the background is in Chinese characters XXX welcomes to cultural travel XXX...
(4) The trucks are not parked in factory premises (check the billboard...), so why are they in public area?

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## LKJ86

STOVL...


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505486
> 
> 
> STOVL...



Pardon, but can you explain a bit better or more??

A STOVL aka Short Take Off and Vertical Landing is for the J-10 surely impossible.


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## cirr

Promoting the coordinated development of aircraft(FC-31) and engine(WS-19) 

中国工程院孙聪院士到所进行走访交流

航发贵阳所 今天

10月9日，航空工业集团公司孙聪院士、航空工业沈阳所总设计师*王永庆*、副所长张志冰一行到中国*航发贵阳所*就*某型发动机*研制工作进行调研，中国航发总经理助理罗湘源、专职总师*黄维娜*、中国航发黎阳董事长牟欣、贵阳所所长向传国及型号总体部有关人员参加了会议。

黄维娜总设计师介绍了某型发动机研制进展情况，双方就*促进飞发协调工作*、提升技术需求等方面进行了深入的交流，并就持续开展飞发匹配设计工作达成一致意见。

孙聪院士希望双方能深入开展飞发融合的设计，在设计中充分发挥飞机、发动机各自优势，做好飞发协调，从源头抓好、抓实各项工作；要深化合作关系，取长补短，聚力集智攻克技术难关，共同提升技术能力；要善于借鉴新技术，要在发动机耐高温、可靠性提升等方面加大技术攻关；要重视生产、装配及试车工作的仿真工作，进一步健全飞发协调机制，逐步提升发动机和飞机性能，为共同提升航空装备战斗力的目标而努力奋斗。

罗湘源指出发动机研制要在保证高可靠性的基础上提高发动机性能，要求主动与飞机方进行沟通，密切协作配合，开阔思路、借鉴经验，有成果共同分享，锐意进取、为推进航空装备建设贡献力量。*专职总师黄维娜表示将做好总体策划，全力以赴，主动对接用户需求、规范程序和要求、全力推进各项任务开展、共同完成装备列装任务。*(文/刘鹏飞 图/杨黔)

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz ... cUt5IbBoouCTlhzB#rd



Deino said:


> Pardon, but can you explain a bit better or more??
> 
> A STOVL aka Short Take Off and Vertical Landing is for the J-10 surely impossible.



It is a new project that has got nothing to do with the J-10. Still early days.

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## casual

Deino said:


> Pardon, but can you explain a bit better or more??
> 
> A STOVL aka Short Take Off and Vertical Landing is for the J-10 surely impossible.


i think he meant to say thrust vectoring


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Promoting the coordinated development of aircraft(FC-31) and engine(WS-19)
> 
> 中国工程院孙聪院士到所进行走访交流
> 
> 航发贵阳所 今天
> 
> 10月9日，航空工业集团公司孙聪院士、航空工业沈阳所总设计师*王永庆*、副所长张志冰一行到中国*航发贵阳所*就*某型发动机*研制工作进行调研，中国航发总经理助理罗湘源、专职总师*黄维娜*、中国航发黎阳董事长牟欣、贵阳所所长向传国及型号总体部有关人员参加了会议。
> 
> 黄维娜总设计师介绍了某型发动机研制进展情况，双方就*促进飞发协调工作*、提升技术需求等方面进行了深入的交流，并就持续开展飞发匹配设计工作达成一致意见。
> 
> 孙聪院士希望双方能深入开展飞发融合的设计，在设计中充分发挥飞机、发动机各自优势，做好飞发协调，从源头抓好、抓实各项工作；要深化合作关系，取长补短，聚力集智攻克技术难关，共同提升技术能力；要善于借鉴新技术，要在发动机耐高温、可靠性提升等方面加大技术攻关；要重视生产、装配及试车工作的仿真工作，进一步健全飞发协调机制，逐步提升发动机和飞机性能，为共同提升航空装备战斗力的目标而努力奋斗。
> 
> 罗湘源指出发动机研制要在保证高可靠性的基础上提高发动机性能，要求主动与飞机方进行沟通，密切协作配合，开阔思路、借鉴经验，有成果共同分享，锐意进取、为推进航空装备建设贡献力量。*专职总师黄维娜表示将做好总体策划，全力以赴，主动对接用户需求、规范程序和要求、全力推进各项任务开展、共同完成装备列装任务。*(文/刘鹏飞 图/杨黔)
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz ... cUt5IbBoouCTlhzB#rd
> 
> 
> 
> It is a new project that has got nothing to do with the J-10. Still early days.



The FC-31 program is still being developed?


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## aliaselin

Akasa said:


> The FC-31 program is still being developed?


It's about WS-12, nothing to do with FC-31


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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> It's about WS-12, nothing to do with FC-31




WS-12 ???


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> WS-12 ???


Non-after burn version of WS-13, used by Divine Eagle and other UAV

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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Non-after burn version of WS-13, used by Divine Eagle and other UAV




Thanks, but interesting that it gained a new, separate designation.


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## LKJ86

WS-10B

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## cirr

Akasa said:


> The FC-31 program is still being developed?



Why not? There is no sign of being orherwise.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Why not? There is no sign of being orherwise.



Well, unless the PLANAF, PLAAF, or another customer purchases it, is there an incentive to pour money into a stillborn project?


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## Deino

And the number count again? I come to 15! Or am I wrong?

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## 055_destroyer

Deino said:


> And the number count again? I come to 15! Or am I wrong?
> 
> View attachment 509249


It is the legendary WS-15 ermei engine we are all waiting for.......


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## LKJ86

055_destroyer said:


> It is the legendary WS-15 ermei engine we are all waiting for.......


What?


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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> And the number count again? I come to 15! Or am I wrong?
> 
> View attachment 509249


Your count appears correct. What's the significance of 15 petals?

Here's an album with several pictures of the engine:


https://imgur.com/a/CAwif04

Clearly 15 petals.


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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Your count appears correct. What's the significance of 15 petals?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...om-the-j-20-news.514445/page-39#post-10754327


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## wulff

Short, Stubby Nozzles : Check
Neither 16 nor 18 petals: Check

The hints are being dropped again and again


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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Your count appears correct. What's the significance of 15 petals?
> 
> Here's an album with several pictures of the engine:
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/CAwif04
> 
> Clearly 15 petals.


Some individuals think the WS-15 also has 15 petals


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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> Some individuals think the WS-15 also has 15 petals


Could be that other engines also have nozzles with 15 petals, or that there's just one common TVC nozzle for both WS-10 and 15. Is there any evidence that this is the WS-15?


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## Deino

055_destroyer said:


> It is the legendary WS-15 ermei engine we are all waiting for.......



IMO highly unlikely ...


Figaro said:


> Some individuals think the WS-15 also has 15 petals



Yes, but that does not necessarily means THISs nozzle has to be a WS-15, ...



ZeEa5KPul said:


> Could be that other engines also have nozzles with 15 petals, or that there's just one common TVC nozzle for both WS-10 and 15. Is there any evidence that this is the WS-15?



No ... and therefore IMO it is more likely a test-nozzle related to the WS-15's one but here mated onto a WS-10.

It makes no sense at all to test a new and completely unproven engine together with a new nozzle on a single engine type ... and the fact that they show it at Zhuhai is IMO proof that it is 100% for sure not the WS-15.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Could be that other engines also have nozzles with 15 petals, or that there's just one common TVC nozzle for both WS-10 and 15. Is there any evidence that this is the WS-15?


No way it's WS-15. Testing new TVC on a new engine core seems like overkill

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## 055_destroyer

Deino said:


> It makes no sense at all to test a new and completely unproven engine together with a new nozzle on a single engine type ... and the fact that they show it at Zhuhai is IMO proof that it is 100% for sure not the WS-15.



From rumour, the first real test bed for this engine is a J-20 prototype. The new engine has prove itself in reliability and perfomance after long hours of testing before being installed on a J-10 prototype to verify effect on single engine. Therefore, it's not that risky move afterall.


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## LKJ86

055_destroyer said:


> It is the legendary WS-15 ermei engine we are all waiting for.......








It is WS-10.

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## LKJ86



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## cirr

WS-15？ or WS-19？？


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## LKJ86

The video of TVC: https://m.weibo.cn/1917649391/4302966041353923

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> The video of TVC: https://m.weibo.cn/1917649391/4302966041353923


WS-10 TVC?


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## LKJ86



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## Aasimkhan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 515175
> View attachment 515176
> View attachment 515177
> View attachment 515178
> View attachment 515179
> View attachment 515180
> View attachment 515181
> View attachment 515182
> View attachment 515183


Is it Zhuhai Air Show ?


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## LKJ86

Aasimkhan said:


> Is it Zhuhai Air Show ?


Yep.


----------



## JSCh



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## LKJ86

TVC

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## j20blackdragon

F-22 maximum afterburner flame and shock diamonds are fully visible in broad daylight.






Same with Ukrainian Su-27 with AL-31F.






J-20 (overweight and underpowered?) performing maneuvers like this with no afterburner...

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## SME11B

j20blackdragon said:


> F-22 maximum afterburner flame and shock diamonds are fully visible in broad daylight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same with Ukrainian Su-27 with AL-31F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 (overweight and underpowered?) performing maneuvers like this with no afterburner...



Maneuvers like what?


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## Figaro

SME11B said:


> Maneuvers like what?


Cobra for a start


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## kuge

perhaps that j20 came from a dive & then pulled up that no after burner was required..??


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## SME11B

Figaro said:


> Cobra for a start



Is there a video of that? I have looked and have seen no evidence of the ability to do a cobra. I did see it do a sharp ascent but that's not the same thing.


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## Figaro

SME11B said:


> Is there a video of that? I have looked and have seen no evidence of the ability to do a cobra. I did see it do a sharp ascent but that's not the same thing.



Go to YouTube 
Click search bar 
Type in J-10 TVC Zhuhai 2018 
Watch the entire video

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## SME11B

Figaro said:


> Go to YouTube
> Click search bar
> Type in J-10 TVC Zhuhai 2018
> Watch the entire video



Now tell me where I can find the video of j-20 doing that.


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## Figaro

SME11B said:


> Now tell me where I can find the video of j-20 doing that.


I never said J-10 TVC, not J-20


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## Akasa

Could someone with a strong grasp of Chinese translate the following posters? It supposedly has something to do with the development of *Batch #03* of the *WS-15* engine.











Thanks.

In a separate event, it is alleged that the CASIC 3rd Institute has tested a *TBCC* (turbine-based combined cycle) engine successfully. If true, this would be China's second TBCC engine after the one that was tested on a hypersonic drone in 2015.

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## cirr

Turbine based combined cycle engine verification test successful

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QF6VzNTRPc2ntvTev4ENag

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## Han Patriot

cirr said:


> Turbine based combined cycle engine verification test successful
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QF6VzNTRPc2ntvTev4ENag


They should keep this under wraps. CIA's real work now is internet browsing fan sites.

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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> F-22 maximum afterburner flame and shock diamonds are fully visible in broad daylight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same with Ukrainian Su-27 with AL-31F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 (overweight and underpowered?) performing maneuvers like this with no afterburner...



F-35 full afterburner. Flame and shock diamonds visible.





J-20 with AL-31F? AL-31FM1? AL-31FN Series 3?
No flame.
No shock diamonds.
Nozzles are dark.

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## SME11B

j20blackdragon said:


> F-35 full afterburner. Flame and shock diamonds visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 with AL-31F? AL-31FM1? AL-31FN Series 3?
> No flame.
> No shock diamonds.
> Nozzles are dark.



But is there a difference in speed? You posted of video of one and a photo of the other.


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## 055_destroyer

SME11B said:


> But is there a difference in speed? You posted of video of one and a photo of the other.


Hence the shock diamond come in play... More or less tells u the hard pull up it substance and the thrust require.

Didn't the previous post talks about 1st prize award for a Chinese duplication of an engine application? To get such first place, I suspect it might do with the engine currently on board J-20. And it's not an ordinary AL-31F engine.

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## SME11B

055_destroyer said:


> Hence the shock diamond come in play... More or less tells u the hard pull up it substance and the thrust require.
> 
> Didn't the previous post talks about 1st prize award for a Chinese duplication of an engine application? To get such first place, I suspect it might do with the engine currently on board J-20. And it's not an ordinary AL-31F engine.



But there is a difference between thrust output and how hard the engine is being pushed. The f-135 is the most powerful fighter engine in the world right now. Was it being inferred that f-35 is less stealthy in IR? I have seen the f-35 flying in person and it seems to move pretty good, and it has a gun, the A model at least. I don't know what they were getting at or if there is enough info being displayed to make a determination.


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## Oldman1

j20blackdragon said:


> F-35 full afterburner. Flame and shock diamonds visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 with AL-31F? AL-31FM1? AL-31FN Series 3?
> No flame.
> No shock diamonds.
> Nozzles are dark.



What are you trying to imply here?


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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> F-35 full afterburner. Flame and shock diamonds visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 with AL-31F? AL-31FM1? AL-31FN Series 3?
> No flame.
> No shock diamonds.
> Nozzles are dark.



F-15 full afterburner climb.





J-20...NO afterburner climb???

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## Figaro

Akasa said:


> Could someone with a strong grasp of Chinese translate the following posters? It supposedly has something to do with the development of *Batch #03* of the *WS-15* engine.
> 
> View attachment 526605
> 
> View attachment 526606
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> In a separate event, it is alleged that the CASIC 3rd Institute has tested a *TBCC* (turbine-based combined cycle) engine successfully. If true, this would be China's second TBCC engine after the one that was tested on a hypersonic drone in 2015.
> 
> View attachment 526607


AVIC has already started batch production of the WS-15?

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## JSCh

*China successfully completed hypersonic engine test*
By Deng Xiaoci Source:Global Times Published: 2019/1/7 20:53:40

China's home-grown turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) engine system has completed its design and development stage and entered the aircraft-engine integration test phase, a major step toward the development of the country's next generation hypersonic drone.

An article published by the WeChat account of Chengdu Aircraft Research and Design Institute, a design facility of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Co, on Thursday said the TBCC engine flight test project is led by the institute's chief architect Wang Haifeng, who also led key national defense projects, such as the development of the J-20 and J-10 fighter jets.

The TBCC engine combines a turbine and a scramjet engine, which offers an ideal single-engine solution to achieving the shift from low speed to hypersonic speed, said Liu Xingzhou, a prominent ramjet expert and Chinese Academy of Engineering academician at the China Aerospace Science and Industry Cooperation, in 2011. 

The TBCC engine will allow the aircraft to fly at speeds of up to Mach 6, which means five to six times faster than the speed of sound, said Wei Xudong, a Beijing-based military analyst.

The TBCC engine, which is bigger and more expensive than traditional ones, is primarily used in hypersonic cruise missiles and unmanned aircraft, including supersized reconnaissance drones and pilotless bombers, since no human could stand long periods of hypersonic flights, Wei told the Global Times on Monday. 

Wei also stressed that once the TBCC engine technology matures, missiles outfitted with it will be impossible to intercept. 

For years, US arms giant Lockheed Martin has been working on the development of the SR-72 using the TBCC propulsion system. The SR-72's top speed will be Mach 6. Its first flight is expected in 2023, and scheduled to enter service by 2030, US defense website airforce-technology.com reported.

The SR-72 is the successor of the fastest aircraft the world has seen, the SR-71, a Cold War reconnaissance jet that the US Air Force retired in 1998.

As Chinese firms rapidly develop their own TBCC engine, a Chinese version of the SR-72 will not be far off, Wei predicted.

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## Maxpane

wow amazing chinese are really hardworking nation and can change world's fate

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## ZeEa5KPul

A *very *important post about Chinese military turbofans via jobjed from SDF: 

Here are some background on the WS-10 and monocrystal turbine blade fabrication in China, as well as WS-15 updates and predictions.


*About the WS-10*, sources: here, here, here, here (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7):

Its OPR is overly ambitious for a country starting off weak in material science, at around 32 whereas the AL-31's is around 24. A higher OPR means the turbine-inlet temperature and the stresses on the compressor stages are higher, putting greater demand on material quality. The OPR was that high because WS-10's core came from the CFM56, the same core as the F101 developed by GE which had a high OPR. Now GE didn't mind a higher OPR because they had the material science to back up their ambitions but the same could not be said for 606. The F110 uses monocrystal blades whereas the WS-10 uses directionally-solidified blades which are hugely inferior to moncrystals and don't last nearly as long meaning WS-10s today have a lifespan of ~1500 hours while F110s go upwards of 5000 hours. This resulted from China not having monocrystal turbine blade fabrication capability when WS-10 was under development. Additionally, 606 had to strengthen the WS-10's compressor stages to counter the stresses of a high OPR, making the WS-10 significantly heavier than the AL-31, some 250kg heavier according to gongke.
Another effect of the high turbine-inlet temp is the incorporation of large cooling channels in the WS-10's turbine blades. These channels bring up cool air to cushion the blades from the hot air of the combustion chamber but every litre of air used for cooling is a litre of air not optimally used to produce thrust. Therefore, most engine manufacturers try to minimise the amount of air passed through these channels to maximise efficiency. 606, on the other hand, had to enlarge these cooling channels to compensate for their directionally-solidified blades' inferior heat resistance. This means a relatively high portion of the WS-10's airflow is used for cooling and isn't optimally combusted.

In the 1980s, 606 couldn't design components of an advanced engine independently so they copied the core of an American engine but adopted Russian design standards for the low-pressure compressor stage and afterburn section. This seems fine on the surface until you realise the Americans spin counterclockwise and the Russians spin clockwise. Why does this matter? In 4th-gen engines, the low-pressure compressor shaft is contained concentrically within the high-pressure compressor shaft meaning you'd want to minimise the relative velocity of the two shaft surfaces to reduce friction. In an engine where both the LP and HP shafts are spinning in one direction, the relative RPM between the two shafts would be something like 5000. For the WS-10, where the LP and HP shafts spin in opposite directions, the relative RPM is more like 20,000. For comparison, the F110's LP section has max RPM of 8500 and its HP section, ~15000, giving a relative RPM of 6500. If this was replicated on the WS-10, the relative RPM would be a ridiculous 23,500. This means the WS-10's compressors don't have as much margin to increase its RPM. As engine RPM increases, the bypass ratio decreases, _see Figure 1_. Unfortunately for the WS-10, it can't spin its engines above the RPM corresponding to a bypass ratio of 0.84 because its LP and HP shafts spin in opposite directions and a higher RPM would destroy the shafts, destroying the engine/aircraft. This means a minimum bypass ratio of 0.84, the highest of its contemporaries, is what the WS-10 has to work with. This isn't ideal because high-altitude cruising is most efficient with a bypass ratio as close to 0 as possible.
606 attempted to design the WS-10 to a modular architecture to facilitate rapid disassembly which is beneficial for maintenance, especially in the field and not the depot. This is also how GE designed the F101 and its derivatives. However, 606 didn't get everything right and the WS-10 ended up being only half-modular. This means while depot maintenance was simplified, field maintenance remains a hassle.







_Figure 1: WS-10 Bypass Ratio vs RPM, x-axis 1.00 = 100% RPM_
*
*






*Monocrystal turbine blade situation in China*, sources: here, here, here, here.

As stated above, active service WS-10 do not use monocrystals. A few examples were built using monocrystals manufactured by 170 Factory but test results were disappointing and nothing came of it. The WS-10IPE is an attempt to use better materials including new monocrystals to squeeze more performance out of the WS-10 but the improvements are not significant enough to convince the PLA to invest more into the project.
Chinese turboshaft technology is the least behind of all aeroengine areas. In fact, turboshafts are most prominent users of monocrystal blades in China at the moment. The WZ-9 uses monocrystal turbine blades manufactured by the 331 Factory, or AECC South Industry Company Ltd. Their blades are pretty good quality and their yield factor is decent. However, the small physical size of their products limit their use to turboshafts.
Guizhou 170 Factory, now acquired by 621 Institute, achieves a monocrystal-growing batch yield factor of around 70% and is 606th's monocrystal supplier. For comparison, Western engine manufacturers typically achieve 95% yields.
The Chinese Academy of Sciences' Institute of Metal Research also manufactures monocrystal turbine blades with a yield factor of around 70%.
A private company, the Hangyu Superalloy Technology Company Ltd (航宇超合金技术有限公司) achieves the highest yield factors in China (~90%), comparable to Western manufacturers. However, their catalogue range is smaller than 170 and Institute of Metal Research's so their products aren't as widely used.
170 Factory's catalogue includes the latest 3rd-generation monocrystal blades such as DD32. The WS-15 does not use the DD32 because its design predates the arrival of the 3rd-gen blades. However, it definitely uses monocrystals of some kind, probably 2nd-gens.







*Now, updates about the WS-15:*

Half a year ago, Dr Liu Daxiang predicted the WS-15 will achieve design certification within 3 - 5 years. Gongke also said an engine can achieve design certification 3 - 5 years after first flight if testing goes well. This means the WS-15, if it wants to achieve design certification within 5 years as predicted, should be flying within 2.
An experienced Chinese aeroengine enthusiast wrote an article analysing the billboard of accolades (see Figure 2) that got posted last month. The statement about Batch 3 of prototype WS-15s is the main attraction. Looking back at the WS-10 program for hints, its Batch 1 and 2 prototypes were exclusively for ground tests, beginning delivery in 1995 while Batch 3, consisting of seven prototypes, was delivered from 2000 - 2001. In June 2001, a J-11 with its starboard AL-31F replaced by a WS-10 took off, marking the first flight of the WS-10. Flight verification of the WS-10 was subsequently conducted using Batch 3 and Batch 3S engines. Beginning in March 2004, the WS-10 began its design certification process, eventually being granted design certification in October 2005. In other words, a few months after WS-10 Batch 3 was delivered, the WS-10 had its first flight and after little more than four years, it got design certification. And now we know the WS-15 Batch 3 has or will soon be completed and delivered. However, we must remember that the testing of the WS-15 is far more rigorous and comprehensive than the WS-10's so the visible progress may be slower as 606 takes their time doing things right this time.
In March 2018, someone asked gongke if the WS-15 was at a stage where 606 could just cram it in an airframe and make it fly for ten minutes. Gongke replied it definitely could. From this we know the WS-15 was already in flyable state almost a year ago, and probably considerably sooner than that taking into account the travel delay of news from 606 to Liyang.
The conclusion I get from this is we should expect a first flight of the WS-15 aboard the Il-76LL testbed within two years, quite possibly occurring this year.






_Figure 2: Billboard of achievements by young aeroengine designers_

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102081843573088258

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## cirr

The first ignition of the prototype pulse detonation engine of Shenzhen Thrust-to-Weight Ratio Engine Technology Co., Ltd. 

https://weibo.com/tv/v/HoDLVckLW?fid=1034:4358727218977462

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## Maxpane

cirr said:


> The first ignition of the prototype pulse detonation engine of Shenzhen Thrust-to-Weight Ratio Engine Technology Co., Ltd.
> 
> https://weibo.com/tv/v/HoDLVckLW?fid=1034:4358727218977462


congrats

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## LKJ86



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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 553535



What is that? *What is that!?*
It looks too small to be the WS-15. WS-19?


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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> What is that? *What is that!?*
> It looks too small to be the WS-15. WS-19?

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## Ruse

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 553539



Could you provide a translation?


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## bahadur999

WS-19
But what aircrafts may use it?

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 553539


Will you help… Someone is looking for the translation of this picture, which was reposted at the other forum -- unfortunately no credit is attributed to you, which is habitual


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## Deino

This might help ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117805777496838149

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117810780915654658

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> This might help ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117805777496838149
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117810780915654658


its just amazing work


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## LKJ86

The good news about WS-15





WS-15 is making its flight test on the aircraft, but not on J-20 yet.

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 553539

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## samsara

From Hendrik_2000/SDF:

Well, I guess the rumor of Huangshan 黄山 is true after all. With the maturing of Gas Turbine industry in China, I am not surprise finally they get it all right. Years of frustration and disappointment is not in vain. And what is the intended user of this engine, FC-31? Any one knows the specs of this engine?

The Global Security has this article (2018.10.12) probably a translation of the old rumor.

At the 2018 Zhuhai Airshow, the big vector engine is not only the one that is equipped on the J-10B, but is also a quietly lying on the stand, proclaiming China's second stealth fighter, J-31, will soon have a domestic turbofan engine; this engine is the Turbofan-19 Huangshan, the medium thrust engine that had only appeared in rumors in the past two years. For a double-engine medium-sized fighter, the thrust and fuel consumption of the large thrust engine are too large, wasteful of money, and poor cost-effectiveness; the most efficient method is to install two medium-thrust engines, and the WS-19 is such an engine. China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) had previously disclosed a vector engine with a maximum thrust of 9800Kgf. This engine is considered by the outside world to be the WS-19 涡扇-19 ('Wo Shan' means Turbofan) with codename "Huangshan" 黄山 engine, matched with FC-31. This project has produced and successfully completed the development of QC185, QC400, GT25000G military ship-borne turbine shaft blades, WS-18, WS-19 turbofan engine shaft blade development, 624 AT project drones and other models to attack the mission. In mid-2017, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) first published an engine model called "Turbofan-19" (WS-19) for a summary of the results of the "Shaft-type blade universal combination tester". Some military observers revealed on the Internet that "TurboFan-19" is a long-rumored new Chinese engine. It is similar to the name of "Taihangshan" 太行山 and "Emeishan" 峨嵋山, and the name of "TurboFan-19" has codename "Huangshan" 黄山. The target of the Turbofan-19 is the General Electric F414 turbofan engine, which is larger than the European EJ200 engine in terms of maximum thrust.

Before the Turbofan-19 model was confirmed, the detailed report on China's new medium-thrust turbofan engine was only the "S3-2 type technical verification machine" project. The S3-2 type technical verification machine was a double rotor and afterburner. The turbofan engine with vector nozzle has a maximum state thrust of 9800kgf, and the thrust-to-weight ratio is 9th [!? -- I suspect there's a notation mistake here but I don't know the correct one so I just let it as is]. The goal is to obtain the national project after the verification technology is up to standard, and become an important member of the domestic engine type spectrum. Aeroengine market demands for medium-thrust turbofan engines with vector nozzles.

From the performance parameters of the S3-2 type technical verification machine and the performance description of the Turbofan-19 "Huangshan" on the internet, the two are very close. It is possible that the advanced technology development of the S3-2 type technical verification machine has reached the target. After obtaining the approval of the engine model development project, it entered the prototype development stage.

At some airshows in China a few years ago, there was an unidentified medium-thrust engine more than once. The maximum afterburning thrust was 9500kgf. In terms of appearance, this engine not only has a structure similar to the Russian RD93, there are also similarities with the American F404 and European EJ200 engines. However, this engine even though appeared in the airshow, there is no follow-up related information to prove that it uses the official model and name.










(…)

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## samsara

From Watdahek/SDF:

The main reason we know this should be *WS-19* and probably not WS-10 variant or WS-15 is because of the article saying the team is from *中国航发涡轮院* also known as the *INSTITUTE 624 located in Chengdu* [Chengfa Turbine Institute !?].

Both *WS-10* and *WS-15* engines are projects undertaken by *INSTITUTE 606 in Shenyang*.

Some also recognized the head of the project as *Huang Weina*, who is supposedly the head of a _“medium-thrust engine”_ development team, but I have conflicting sources on that.

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## JSCh

*Top new turbofan engine to power China's carrier-based stealth fighters: military specialist*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/4/17 18:09:37



A Chinese FC-31 fighter jet performs at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, on November 12, 2014. Photo: Cui Meng/GT

The young members of a team of Chinese aero engine designers will be given an award for successfully designing and prototype testing of a new top-class turbofan engine that will help Chinese fighter jets take on their advanced foreign counterparts, as Chinese experts said on Wednesday the new engine is likely to be installed on China's new carrier-based stealth fighter jets.

With 124 members who are 35 years old or younger, the 193-person development team at the Gas Turbine Research Institute under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) will receive a provincial award during China's Youth Day on May 4, according to a statement released by the government of Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province, on its WeChat account on Monday.

Without giving the designation of the engine, the statement said it is a piece of military equipment that will rival advanced foreign fighter jets and represents China's highest technical level in aero engines. It is one of several major aero engine projects of the country, the statement said.

It took the development team only a year to design the engine, and just six months to finish testing the first prototype, and the manufacturing cycle has been reduced by two thirds, the statement said.

With the new engine, China's future advanced fighter jets will finally solve the "heart problem," Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times on Wednesday. "This is great, great news," he said. The aero engine is often dubbed "heart of aircraft" as it provides the power the aircraft needs.

Military observers said China has made astounding progress in the development of advanced military aircraft, highlighted by the J-20 stealth fighter jet. The industry, however, has been hampered by domestically made engines that previously had sub-optimal thrust and life span.

Advanced turbofan engines are difficult to develop, especially the manufacturing of fan blades, which must be built to resist very high temperatures and pressure, Wei noted.

The upcoming award is an indication that China has made breakthroughs not only in designing, but also manufacturing, Wei said.

Despite the fast pace of development, Wei said the new engine still needs a considerable amount of testing under different situations, before it is confirmed reliable and enters mass production.

This turbofan engine is likely to be used on China's stealth fighter jets in the future, Weihutang, a column affiliated with China Central Television (CCTV), reported on Tuesday.

Wei said the engine could be related to China's medium-sized twin-engine stealth aircraft FC-31, which could become China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118437102079733762

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## bahadur999

I 


JSCh said:


> *Top new turbofan engine to power China's carrier-based stealth fighters: military specialist*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/4/17 18:09:37
> 
> 
> 
> A Chinese FC-31 fighter jet performs at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, on November 12, 2014. Photo: Cui Meng/GT
> 
> The young members of a team of Chinese aero engine designers will be given an award for successfully designing and prototype testing of a new top-class turbofan engine that will help Chinese fighter jets take on their advanced foreign counterparts, as Chinese experts said on Wednesday the new engine is likely to be installed on China's new carrier-based stealth fighter jets.
> 
> With 124 members who are 35 years old or younger, the 193-person development team at the Gas Turbine Research Institute under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) will receive a provincial award during China's Youth Day on May 4, according to a statement released by the government of Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province, on its WeChat account on Monday.
> 
> Without giving the designation of the engine, the statement said it is a piece of military equipment that will rival advanced foreign fighter jets and represents China's highest technical level in aero engines. It is one of several major aero engine projects of the country, the statement said.
> 
> It took the development team only a year to design the engine, and just six months to finish testing the first prototype, and the manufacturing cycle has been reduced by two thirds, the statement said.
> 
> With the new engine, China's future advanced fighter jets will finally solve the "heart problem," Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times on Wednesday. "This is great, great news," he said. The aero engine is often dubbed "heart of aircraft" as it provides the power the aircraft needs.
> 
> Military observers said China has made astounding progress in the development of advanced military aircraft, highlighted by the J-20 stealth fighter jet. The industry, however, has been hampered by domestically made engines that previously had sub-optimal thrust and life span.
> 
> Advanced turbofan engines are difficult to develop, especially the manufacturing of fan blades, which must be built to resist very high temperatures and pressure, Wei noted.
> 
> The upcoming award is an indication that China has made breakthroughs not only in designing, but also manufacturing, Wei said.
> 
> Despite the fast pace of development, Wei said the new engine still needs a considerable amount of testing under different situations, before it is confirmed reliable and enters mass production.
> 
> This turbofan engine is likely to be used on China's stealth fighter jets in the future, Weihutang, a column affiliated with China Central Television (CCTV), reported on Tuesday.
> 
> Wei said the engine could be related to China's medium-sized twin-engine stealth aircraft FC-31, which could become China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.


I was sure it was AVIC's institute who developed it :0
But maybe i wasn't up-to-date and this institute is just a former-AVIC as AECC was split from them.

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## JSCh

bahadur999 said:


> I
> 
> I was sure it was AVIC's institute who developed it :0
> But maybe i wasn't up-to-date and this institute is just a former-AVIC as AECC was split from them.


Yes, Gas Turbine Research Institute, also commonly refer to as institute 624, is part of AVIC before being moved to AECC.

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## bahadur999

JSCh said:


> Yes, Gas Turbine Research Institute, also commonly refer to as institute 624, is part of AVIC before being moved to AECC.


Yeah and that is even when AVIC is still in control of several engine institutes.
I bet by moving to AECC they had to abandon their name '624'

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## samsara

OedoSoldier on 18 April:

_“It is said that *WS-15* engine has been loaded on the test aircraft.
In addition, the type of test aircraft is not clear (not J-20)”
_

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118732071957037057
Furthermore, later OedoSoldier even provided the info source of this development:

*比起自研中推，先量产的竟是……涡扇-13*

作者：胡诌施佬 胡诌施佬
2019年4月16日

这几天相信大家都已经看过了这张中航发涡轮院涡扇发动机研制团队站在一团大家都知道是新型中推验证机的高斯模糊之前的合影了，按照基本的描述，这应该就是被称为涡扇-19的新型中推涡扇发动机。既然如此，施佬觉得中推系列似乎可以再往下写一点下去了。

[…] 

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=Mz...926&idx=1&sn=1cbcbd84fcddd7c053d09d39fdbc31d1

*Compared with the self-research, the first mass production was... Turbofan-13 (WS-13)*

Authored by 胡诌施佬 
(Huzhou Shilao) 
2019.04.16

I believe you have seen this picture of the turbofan engine development team of AVIC Turbine Research Institute standing in front of the Gaussian blurred photo of the new medium-thrust verifier. According to the basic description, this should be the new medium-thrust turbofan engine called WS-19 (Turbofan-19). In that case, the author feels that this medium-thrust series can be written down a little more.
(…)

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## 帅的一匹

发动机放在北方研发是一个错误


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## Deino

Any idea??? Said to be WS-15.

http://www.aecc.cn/upload/Image/mrtp/3900894837.jpg

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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> Any idea??? Said to be WS-15.
> 
> http://www.aecc.cn/upload/Image/mrtp/3900894837.jpg
> 
> View attachment 554808


Could very well be. The size definitely looks right. I think the WS-15 guys might have gotten a little jealous of the coverage the WS-19 got and decided to post this picture.

Can any of the personnel be identified like Huang Weina was in the WS-19 picture? That badge should be readable with image enhancement software.

Edit: the source article for the image - http://www.aecc.cn/xwzx/jqyw/390088.shtml. It says the article was released on the 15th of April (coincidence?), around the same time as the WS-19 picture. It might have been a coordinated release.

The official in the windbreaker is Cao Jianguo, the chairman of AECC, and the image was taken at a test flight centre.

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## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Could very well be. The size definitely looks right. I think the WS-15 guys might have gotten a little jealous of the coverage the WS-19 got and decided to post this picture.
> 
> Can any of the personnel be identified like Huang Weina was in the WS-19 picture? That badge should be readable with image enhancement software.
> 
> Edit: the source article for the image - http://www.aecc.cn/xwzx/jqyw/390088.shtml. It says the article was released on the 15th of April (coincidence?), around the same time as the WS-19 picture. It might have been a coordinated release.
> 
> The official in the windbreaker is Cao Jianguo, the chairman of AECC, and the image was taken at a test flight centre.




Thanks for the translation, but ... Huhuuuuuu ... Indeed, it's just a WS-10 Taihang.


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Thanks for the translation, but ... Huhuuuuuu ... Indeed, it's just a WS-10 Taihang.


How can you tell? The gearbox isn't really visible


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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> How can you tell? The gearbox isn't really visible


The headline of the article I posted makes clear the chairman of AECC is visiting maintenance and *field service* personnel. I should have picked up on that from the beginning.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> How can you tell? The gearbox isn't really visible



How is the gearbox important to identify?


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## JSCh

*China has what Ukraine wants: Business for its military factories. - The Washington Post*
Anton Troianovski
May 20 at 5:32 PM

ZAPORIZHIA, Ukraine — The president of a top Ukrainian aerospace company says its new Chinese investors often ask the staff for “little conversations.” 

They want to know about record-keeping and planning, the setup of production lines and the interplay between workshops. 

“They’ll talk for three hours, and the next day, a totally different group of people will come,” said Vyacheslav Boguslayev, whose sprawling Soviet-era company, Motor Sich, is one of the most advanced military aircraft engine manufacturers in the world. 

“They’ll ask all the same questions as yesterday, and this continues for a week,” he said.

Racing to upgrade its military, China has been turning to Ukraine. And Ukraine — with its economy scrambled by hostilities with Russia — has been willing to accept China’s embrace.

“If they ban us from working with China,” Boguslayev said, “then the first thing I’ll do is fire 10,000 people.”

Motor Sich, dubbed the “Czar of Engines” in the Chinese media, has what Beijing wants: It can supply warplane engines and the know-how to one day possibly make a Chinese-built version.

The Chinese, in turn, have what Motor Sich wants: reliable buyers.

The company lost its biggest market — supplying engines for military helicopters and other aircraft in Russia — after war broke out in eastern Ukraine in 2014. Now it sells mainly to China.

_[China once boasted about its global economic plans. That swagger has faded.]_​
Analysis: China lays down a marker in Europe]​
“If someone comes with money, they’ll take it,” Andreas Umland, a Kiev-based political analyst, said of Ukraine. “They don’t have the luxury to think very strategically here many years ahead.”

At the time of the 2014 revolution, China already had an economic and defense-industry relationship with Ukraine. It bought an unfinished Soviet-era aircraft carrier from Ukraine in 1998 and ordered four huge military hovercraft in 2009. Western countries, by contrast, had little use for Ukraine’s Soviet-legacy defense production. 

“One way or another, Ukraine will have to choose,” said one Western diplomat in Kiev who is examining Ukraine’s links with China and who wasn’t authorized to comment publicly. “They cannot eternally integrate with China while moving toward the West.” 

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to comment for this article. Ukraine-China relations are a delicate issue, officials in Kiev said, given Ukraine’s desire for close ties with the United States on the one hand and China’s expanding partnership with Russia on the other. But Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, who took office Monday, met with the Chinese ambassador in Kiev early this month and offered a vote of confidence.

“China’s experience and investments are important to Ukraine,” he said. 

China has been aggressive in expanding its influence across the former Soviet Union. In Belarus, China is co-financing a massive new industrial park to house more than 100,000 workers. On the Black Sea, the country of Georgia is emerging as a key hub for Chinese trade with Europe.

But Ukraine offers unique resources for China in helping fill knowledge gaps as Beijing looks to build a world-class military, Western diplomats and analysts say. 

Motor Sich’s Boguslayev said the only engines his company is building for China are for aircraft that don’t carry weapons, such as the L-15 training jet. But Reuben Johnson, an American defense industry analyst based in Kiev, said a tighter relationship with Motor Sich could allow China to mass-produce its own fighter jets. 

“The Chinese — for all of the resources they have poured into the endeavor — have not been able to develop reliable fighter-jet engines that are producible in large numbers and run for enough hours between overhauls to be practical,” Johnson said. “Acquiring the brainpower and the expertise of Motor Sich could allow them to jump over that very big hurdle.”

A Chinese firm, Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co., tried to buy a controlling stake in Motor Sich in 2017. Ukrainian authorities froze the deal on national security grounds. But Boguslayev said that $100 million of Beijing Skyrizon’s promised $250 million did come through and that the Chinese company now owns a stake of at least 25 percent in Motor Sich. 

A spokesman for Motor Sich said 35 percent of the company’s $450 million in sales last year went to China, making the country the company’s biggest destination for its aircraft engines. No sales went to Russia, the spokesman said. Six years ago, by contrast, one-third of the company’s $1.1 billion in total sales went to Russia.

“Russia is gone. So I have to be in China now,” Boguslayev said. 

He said he hears frequently from Ukrainian government officials that the United States is unhappy with his dealings with China. His response: “Then how about the State Department gives us work?”

Asked for comment about Motor Sich, a State Department spokeswoman said the United States doesn’t “oppose China’s economic and technological development through legitimate means. However, we are concerned by actions China’s government has taken that are out of step with international norms.

“The United States encourages our partners to consider national security risks that may arise from foreign investment transactions,” the spokeswoman said.

In the southwestern Chinese city of Chongqing, Motor Sich and Beijing Skyrizon in 2017 agreed to jointly build a plant to service and manufacture aircraft engines. The Chinese partners offered to build a small town in which Ukrainian engineers would feel at home, Boguslayev said. 

“They said, ‘Give us 1,000 people,’ ” Boguslayev recalled. “ ‘We’ll build a church for you here. We’ll build a kindergarten.’ ”

The plant has been partially built, Boguslayev said, but is not yet operational. 

Beijing Skyrizon representatives continue to tour Motor Sich plants regularly, Boguslayev said, taking copious notes and interviewing workers. 

China is interested in Ukrainian technology beyond Motor Sich, hiring Ukrainian engineers and bringing them to China, Western officials and Ukrainian defense industry specialists say.

“It’s not just outsourcing, but taking our specialists in both the missile sector and in aircraft-building,” said Sergii Bondarchuk, a former head of Ukrainian defense export company Ukrspecexport who now lives in London. “Ukraine is losing a generation of engineers in this way.”


Paul Sonne in Washington, Lyric Li in Beijing, Oksana Parafeniuk in Kiev and Natalia Abbakumova in Moscow contributed to this report.

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## vi-va

wanglaokan said:


> 发动机放在北方研发是一个错误


Agree


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## JSCh

*Chinese company in bid to buy Ukrainian aeroengine giant*
By Liu Xuanzun and Wang Yi Source:Global Times Published: 2019/7/14 21:38:40




A Ukrainian Antonov An-225 'Mriya' (Dream) aircraft takes off from Gostomel airport near Kiev, Ukraine, on November 10, 2016. Photo: IC

A Beijing-based aviation industry investment company reportedly renewed its attempt to acquire stakes in a Ukrainian aircraft engine manufacturer and the application is being reviewed by the Ukrainian antitrust authority.

The Ukrainian company, which has built engines for the world's largest transport aircraft the An-225, could help China boost its aeroengine industry if the deal materializes, Chinese analysts said on Sunday.

Skyrizon, also known as Beijing Tianjiao Aviation Industry Investment Company, is waiting for the result of an assessment by the Antimonopoly Committee of Ukraine.

The result will be announced after July 22, according to a reorganization note between Skyrizon and Beijing Xinwei Technology Group Co published on the website of the Shanghai Stock Exchange by Xinwei Technology on Friday.

Skyrizon and Xinwei Technology are under the control of the same legal representative, according to tianyancha.com, a business inquiry service provider.

The new application was handed to the relevant Ukraine government authority on June 7 and accepted on June 21. Skyrizon would own more than 50 percent of Motor Sich if the acquisition works, read the note.

China has 13 types and more than 1,200 aircraft engines built by Motor Sich, the note said.

But the US is unhappy about Motor Sich's dealings with China, saying there might be national security risks from foreign investment transactions, the Washington Post reported in May.

The Ukrainian company lost its Russian clients when relations between the two countries broke down, according to the report.

Established in 1907, Motor Sich is considered one of the largest advanced aircraft engine manufacturers in the world and produces engines including turbofans, turboshafts and turboprops.

China still lags behind the world's top level in aeroengines, an anonymous military expert told the Global Times on Sunday.

China could close the gap on the foreign aeroengine industry and boost its domestic aeroengine supply if the acquisition becomes successful, the company note said.

China is also independently progressing with its own aeroengine development plan, the expert said.

A Chinese J-10B fighter jet performed with a homemade engine with thrust vector control system at Airshow China in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province in November 2018.

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## bahadur999

JSCh said:


> *Chinese company in bid to buy Ukrainian aeroengine giant*
> By Liu Xuanzun and Wang Yi Source:Global Times Published: 2019/7/14 21:38:40
> 
> 
> 
> A Ukrainian Antonov An-225 'Mriya' (Dream) aircraft takes off from Gostomel airport near Kiev, Ukraine, on November 10, 2016. Photo: IC
> 
> A Beijing-based aviation industry investment company reportedly renewed its attempt to acquire stakes in a Ukrainian aircraft engine manufacturer and the application is being reviewed by the Ukrainian antitrust authority.
> 
> The Ukrainian company, which has built engines for the world's largest transport aircraft the An-225, could help China boost its aeroengine industry if the deal materializes, Chinese analysts said on Sunday.
> 
> Skyrizon, also known as Beijing Tianjiao Aviation Industry Investment Company, is waiting for the result of an assessment by the Antimonopoly Committee of Ukraine.
> 
> The result will be announced after July 22, according to a reorganization note between Skyrizon and Beijing Xinwei Technology Group Co published on the website of the Shanghai Stock Exchange by Xinwei Technology on Friday.
> 
> Skyrizon and Xinwei Technology are under the control of the same legal representative, according to tianyancha.com, a business inquiry service provider.
> 
> The new application was handed to the relevant Ukraine government authority on June 7 and accepted on June 21. Skyrizon would own more than 50 percent of Motor Sich if the acquisition works, read the note.
> 
> China has 13 types and more than 1,200 aircraft engines built by Motor Sich, the note said.
> 
> But the US is unhappy about Motor Sich's dealings with China, saying there might be national security risks from foreign investment transactions, the Washington Post reported in May.
> 
> The Ukrainian company lost its Russian clients when relations between the two countries broke down, according to the report.
> 
> Established in 1907, Motor Sich is considered one of the largest advanced aircraft engine manufacturers in the world and produces engines including turbofans, turboshafts and turboprops.
> 
> China still lags behind the world's top level in aeroengines, an anonymous military expert told the Global Times on Sunday.
> 
> China could close the gap on the foreign aeroengine industry and boost its domestic aeroengine supply if the acquisition becomes successful, the company note said.
> 
> China is also independently progressing with its own aeroengine development plan, the expert said.
> 
> A Chinese J-10B fighter jet performed with a homemade engine with thrust vector control system at Airshow China in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province in November 2018.


Interestingly, Xinwei is involved with Space technologies too.


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## bahadur999

*China masters fatigue-resistant tech for chopper*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/7/16 18:08:14




A Z-10 attack helicopter attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 80th Group Army hovers at low altitude for last-minute checks during the flight training on November 21, 2017. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn



China recently mastered a new fatigue-resistant technology for helicopter rotors, which could greatly expand the helicopters' capability and service time, a development which military experts said on Tuesday could be of strategic value to China's domestic helicopter industry as the technology could be used on China's future heavy-lift transport helicopters and attack helicopters.

During the development of an unidentified helicopter, engineers at Changhe Aircraft Industry (Group) Corporation Ltd under the state-owned Aviation Industry of China (AVIC) found that the newly designed rotor using a titanium alloy failed to pass fatigue tests, China Aviation News, a newspaper affiliated with AVIC, reported on Tuesday.

The company, cooperating with scientific research teams at Xi'an-based Northwestern Polytechnical University and the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials, then developed a new technique that helps reduce wear and tear on components, doubling their service time, the report said.

The anti-fatigue feature is important because rotor fatigue is not always noticeable, causing unforeseen dangers, the report said.

Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times that a fatigue-resistant rotor could also allow a helicopter to work under higher stress, including maintaining high speeds for extended periods or lifting heavier cargo for longer distances.

A titanium alloy is a strong metal and, together with the new technique, could make helicopters more reliable in difficult environmental conditions, including at sea and in the desert, analysts said.

The breakthrough took three years of research and is of important strategic value to China's domestic helicopter industry, the China Aviation News report said, noting that China had grappled with the key issues to independently make fatigue-resistant rotor wing components.

The new rotor could be used on China's future heavy-lift transport helicopters and attack helicopters, which need to perform extreme maneuvers in combat, Wei said. 

AVIC has developed military helicopters, including the Z-8 transport helicopter and Z-10 attack helicopter, and is currently developing a 40-ton class heavy helicopter with Russia, according to media reports.

The heavy helicopter, dubbed Advanced Heavy Lift, would have a weight-lift capability of 15 tons, a range of 630 kilometers and a top speed of 300 kilometers an hour, RT reported.

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## LKJ86

J-10 and J-20 say goodbye to Russian engines from now on?

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571552
> View attachment 571553
> 
> J-10 and J-20 say goodbye to Russian engines from now on?



Even if difficult to say, for the J-10C I would agree, it looks indeed like a WS-10.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571552
> View attachment 571553
> 
> J-10 and J-20 say goodbye to Russian engines from now on?

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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571733



We want pictures....

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## LKJ86

Unbelievable...

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## Beethoven

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571995
> 
> Unbelievable...


Translation please....


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## LKJ86

Beethoven said:


> Translation please....


It is about the problems of manufacturing qualities on AL-31F engines.. It is horrible..

No translation

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> It is about the problems of manufacturing qualities on AL-31F engines.. It is horrible..
> 
> No translation


still they bought more than 900 engines just in 2002 they bought 300

Speaking to *AIN* at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October. 

*Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” T*o serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partner


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines

so bad quality they have bought 1000


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## ZeEa5KPul

Su33KUB said:


> still they bought more than 900 engines just in 2002 they bought 300
> 
> Speaking to *AIN* at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.
> 
> *Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” T*o serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partner
> 
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines
> 
> so bad quality they have bought 1000


It's not like there was much of a choice back then. Now there is.

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## Figaro

Su33KUB said:


> still they bought more than 900 engines just in 2002 they bought 300
> 
> Speaking to *AIN* at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.
> 
> *Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” T*o serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partner
> 
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines
> 
> so bad quality they have bought 1000


The AL-31 engines were solely responsible for quite a few J-10 crashes. So the quality of Russian products is definitely in question ...



ZeEa5KPul said:


> It's not like there was much of a choice back then. Now there is.


Either a bad engine or no engine

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## lcloo

Su33KUB said:


> still they bought more than 900 engines just in 2002 they bought 300
> 
> Speaking to *AIN* at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.
> 
> *Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” T*o serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partner
> 
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines
> 
> so bad quality they have bought 1000



It is not bad quality in question. The point they raised was manufacturing practice by certain workers, and lack of quality control. These were findings after investigation of crash due to engine malfunction. Thus instead of re-design the engine for better quality, it is a matter of improving workers proficiency in Russian factory.

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## Su33KUB

Figaro said:


> The AL-31 engines were solely responsible for quite a few J-10 crashes. So the quality of Russian products is definitely in question ...
> 
> 
> Either a bad engine or no engine


when you understand why J-10 continued using Al-31s when J-11 used WS-10s you will understand Al-31 was far more reliable than the Chinese engine



Su33KUB said:


> when you understand why J-10 continued using Al-31s when J-11 used WS-10s you will understand Al-31 was far more reliable than the Chinese engine


nonsense, single engine aircraft tend to have higher accident rates than twin engines, F-16s are prone to have more accidents than F-18s or F-15s


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## 帅的一匹

it doesn't make sense to blame AL31 engine, it serves as stopgap for our fighters until WS10 engines get matured.

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## vi-va

wanglaokan said:


> it doesn't make sense to blame AL31 engine, it serves as stopgap for our fighters until WS10 engines get matured.


True. We should appreciate AL31 supporting China air force for so many years.

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## 055_destroyer

viva_zhao said:


> True. We should appreciate AL31 supporting China air force for so many years.


Many of the so called AL-31 you seen serve in PLAAF is in fact overhaul by Chinese themselves since the quality is so bad originally from Russia.

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## Figaro

055_destroyer said:


> Many of the so called AL-31 you seen serve in PLAAF is in fact overhaul by Chinese themselves since the quality is so bad originally from Russia.


Yup. There was a IHS Janes report in 2010 which stated that the Chinese doubled the AL-31's MTBO through in-house upgrades. Even those upgrades weren't enough to prevent a couple J-10 engine accidents...

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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> Yup. There was a IHS Janes report in 2010 which stated that the Chinese doubled the AL-31's MTBO through in-house upgrades. Even those upgrades weren't enough to prevent a couple J-10 engine accidents...


Cost effective of Russian engine is not good.


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## Su33KUB

wanglaokan said:


> Cost effective of Russian engine is not good.


yes and Chinese are, so they buy Russian engines because lack of better engines of domestic origin


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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> yes and Chinese are, so they buy Russian engines because lack of better engines of domestic origin


As if Chinese now still buy Russian engine...

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> As if Chinese now still buy Russian engine...


they do they bought 48 spare 117 for Su-35s and they bought 1000 Al31s of course lick your wounds, Russia is already flying T-30s on one Su-57, if China has something better why do you buy Su-35? of course in the land Alice in wonder land was charity, specially as an old IL-76 can be re-engined with PS-90 but China is stuck with obsolete engines for Y-20 and still buys engines to Ukraine, but live in wonder land Al-31s that China got are designs from 1980 upgraded in the 1990s, Su-30MS are going to be upgraded soon with 117s and Il-76 with PS-90 have better performance than Y-20


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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> they do they bought 48 spare 117 for Su-35s and they bought 1000 Al31s of course is lick your wounds, Russia is already flying T-30s on one Su-57, if China has something better why do you buy Su-35? of course in the land alice in wonder land was charity, specially as an old IL-76 can be re-engined with PD-90 but China is stuck with obsolete engines for Y-20 and still buys engines to Ukraine, but live in wonder land Al-31s that China got are designs from 1980 upgraded in the 1990s, Su-30MS are going to be upgraded soon with 117s and Il-76 with PD-90 have better performance than Y-20


There is no point beating the old news. China WS-10 are no CMF-56 equivalent from the 80s. They are much improve and upthrusted. Same as the engine currently used on Y-20. Your IL-76 fitted with new PD-90 still has an inferior smaller cargo bay and lower payload compare to Y-20 with current engine.

Kawasaki C-2 fitted with 2 powerful engine that has more thrust than 4 D-30kp2 but just manage to get a payload of 40tons only. More or less speak of the the bad engineering. Same as your new IL-476.

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> There is no point beating the old news. China WS-10 are no CMF-56 equivalent from the 80s. They are much improve and upthrusted. Same as the engine currently used on Y-20. Your IL-76 fitted with new PD-90 still has an inferior smaller cargo bay and lower payload compare to Y-20 with current engine.
> 
> Kawasaki C-2 fitted with 2 powerful engine that has more thrust than 4 D-30kp2 but just manage to get a payload of 40tons only. More or less speak of the the bad engineering. Same as your new IL-476.


fantasy of Chinese forum, WS-10 is used mostly on J-11 for a simple reason a less reliable engine needs a mate if it fails on a single engine you need a more reliable engine because if it fails your aircraft drops, if China has better J-11 with Ws-10 why buy Su-35? in fantasy land for charity, but in real land J-11 has not better performance than Su-35,otherwise you will never buy Su-35 specially now China has TVC nozzles, and remember ARJ-21 and 919 use western engines none fly on Chinese engines but there are Tu-214 flying with Ps-90s.

J-10s fly on al-31 for a reason, a more reliable engine..

Y-20 has engines that burn fuel in higher amounts, the payload is how large in the cargo compartment, but how much fuel you burn on your engines means your performance is lower, Il-476 has new wings and better engines, it will burn less fuel regardless your Alice in wonderland story


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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> fantasy of Chinese forum, WS-10 is used mostly on J-11 for a simple reason a less reliable engine needs a mate if it fails on a single engine you need a more reliable engine because if it fails your aircraft drops, if China has better J-11 with Ws-10 why buy Su-35? in fantasy land for charity, but in real land J-11 has not better performance than Su-35,otherwise you will never buy Su-35 specially now China has TVC nozzles, and remember ARJ-21 and 919 use western engines none fly on Chinese engines but there are Tu-214 flying with Ps-90s.
> 
> J-10s fly on al-31 for a reason, a more reliable engine..
> 
> Y-20 has engines that burn fuel in higher amounts, the payload is how large in the cargo compartment, but how much fuel you burn on your engines means your performance is lower, Il-476 has new wings and better engines, it will burn less fuel regardless your Alice in wonderland story


I guess some is in denial mode.

What engine is that?





If the engine is so unreliable, I guess China will never dare to put a single engine especially with TVC on display for hundred thousands of people.... 

Failure is not an option like this...





Su-35 is bought to balance the blank sheet since Russia complain so much about Chinese buying Russia raw material only. If Su-35 is so good. Let me ask you why only the minimum require of 24 is bought?

As for Civilian engine. China is more ambition with more practical and powerful engine in the pipeline.





ARJ-21 is just a pioneer for more important C919 ambitions. Having more western parts to ensure it going global is more appealing.

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> I guess some is in denial mode.
> 
> 
> 
> Su-35 is bought to balance the blank sheet since Russia complain so much about Chinese buying Russia raw material only. If Su-35 is so good. Let me ask you why only the minimum require of 24 is bought?
> 
> 
> 
> ARJ-21 is just a pioneer for more important C919 ambitions. Having more western parts to ensure it going global is more appealing.


minimum requirement was 24 at 2 billion Dollars 48 Su-35s equal 4 billion, why do not you make math instead of putting idiotic theories, China does not sell engines for fighters to Russia nor to the West, so far a more realistic person says China could not buy more because they are darn expensive and 100 would have been close to more than 8 billion, but of course stupidity can not accept reality, the whole Su-27SK/J-11 clone costed 2.5 billion dollars, 38 Su-30MKK were even cheaper, China has made advances and eventually they will catch up in some areas, but deny weaknesses are only for stupids, China is still behind the west, and Russia in aircraft engines, Russia too is behind the west in engines but they are much more capable than China at this moment, in fact J-31 has nothing near 135 engine used on F-35, they use two old RD-95 and in order to speed up the development they were realistic a 135 is decades away so they opted for two RD-93 and if lucky in the future they might have something domestic but one single 135 equals two RD-93 do you get it no one now has an engine as powerful to power a single engine aircraft, nor Russia even does, T-30 engine perhaps has surpassed 119 engine but still in tests and PD-14 is just nearly 1 year to be fit to MS-21, and if lucky by 2023 they might start making it with PD-14.


And about C919 few in the west will buy it until it is not proven safe, so they use western equipment first because ARJ-21 is a disaster no one flies it in the west nor even Latin america or Africa only China and by government order, they lack the equipment, the safety prestige and the cost efficiency plus you are dreaming the West will not allow it to fly it in the western world, even Superjet 100 has problems for sales, so stop putting excuses C919 has no proven record and its rivals will not let it fly beyond China


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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> minimum requirement was 24 at 2 billion Dollars 48 Su-35s equal 4 billion, why do not you make math instead of putting idiotic theories, China does not sell engines for fighters to Russia nor to the West, so far a more realistic person says China could not buy more because they are darn expensive and 100 would have been close to more than 8 billion, but of course stupidity can not accept reality, the whole Su-27SK/J-11 clone costed 2.5 billion dollars, 38 Su-30MKK were even cheaper, China has made advances and eventually they will catch up in some areas, but deny weaknesses are only for stupids, China is still behind the west, and Russia in aircraft engines, Russia too is behind the west in engines but they are much more capable than China at this moment, in fact J-31 has nothing near 135 engine used on F-35, they use two old RD-95 and in order to speed up the development they were realistic a 135 is decades away so they opted for two RD-93 and if lucky in the future they might have something domestic but one single 135 equals two RD-93 do you get it no one now has an engine as powerful to power a single engine aircraft, nor Russia even does, T-30 engine perhaps has surpassed 119 engine but still in tests and PD-14 is just nearly 1 year to be fit to MS-21, and if lucky by 2023 they might start making it with PD-14


@Deino

Please come and keep this thread clean. Some sourgraped pretend to be Russian lose the arguement and start name calling and insult like calling other stupid.

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> @Deino
> 
> Please come and keep this thread clean. Some sourgraped pretend to be Russian lose the arguement and start name calling and insult like calling other stupid.


hypocrite better present better arguments that you lack, your childish theories that C919 is testing western equipment to make it more appealing, ARJ-21 is a total utter failure that will make any passenger worry to get into a Chinese airliner, China still is behind in aeroengines but a good hypocrite says excuses why you bought 1000 Al-31s and you continue buying Russian engines either for Y-20 or Su-35. and your blindness and ignorance why a single engine fighter needs a very reliable engine, so the Chinese engineers are not stupid they went for ws-10 for J-11 and al-31 for J-10 only a fool like you make stupid theories they bought it for Charity hypocrite!

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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> hypocrite better present better arguments that you lack, your childish theories that C919 is testing western equipment to make it more appealing, ARJ-21 is a total utter failure that will make any passenger worry to get into a Chinese airliner, China still is behind in aeroengines but a good hypocrite says excuses why you bought 1000 Al-31s and you continue buying Russian engines either for Y-20 or Su-35. and your blindness and ignorance why a single engine fighter needs a very reliable engine, so the Chinese engineers are not stupid they went for ws-10 for J-11 and al-31 for J-10 only a fool like you make stupid theories they bought it for Charity hypocrite!


Thanks for earning 2 strike for yourself with another name calling. @Deino @The Eagle 

Please ban this uncivilised forumer who did not meant to come here for proper exchange of opinion but just try to force his opinion into others.

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> Thanks for earning 2 strike for yourself with another name calling. @Deino @The Eagle
> 
> Please ban this uncivilised forumer who did not meant to come here for proper exchange of opinion but just try to force his opinion into others.


you are a hypocrite and a moron, you can call any that does not make less stupid, you are an idiot who does not have humility and knowledge of aviation, just an stupid guy pandering nationalism to other stupid nationalist learn aeronautics moron, stupids like you, call mother when they lack arguments better learn about the accident rate single and twin engine fighters have, or how much each and every weapons sales costed China for Sukhoi aircraft or learn how much the ARJ-21 failure will cost China why do you think Bombardier went Airbus or Embraer went Boeing instead of pushing idiotic theories Al-31 is of bad quality when virtually J-10 needed a very reliable engine only morons like you say such idiotices bye moron, remember C919 flies western because first they lack logistics, the technology and non Chinese airliners are not pushed to buy based upon nationalism but upon passenger safety and ticket/fuel costs, people fly to be safe and later cheap tickets the best engines fly the best airliners regardless foolish orders by the CCP leadership

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## Deino

I couldn't resist!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165244604104486913

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## LKJ86

Source: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/LlV2m-CDhqX22cWWHwFwXQ

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## Deino

A translation via Hendrik_2000/SDF:



Hendrik_2000 said:


> 不过对于解放军而言，这个发动机型号的问题，某种程度上还更加麻烦。中国不仅有历年来引进的多种型号的AL-31F系列发动机，还有自行研制的涡扇-10“太行”系列涡扇发动机，未来还有更加先进的涡扇-15发动机，以至于解放军同时使用的涡扇发动机种类也许更多：苏-27SK/UBK、苏-30MKK、歼-11战机使用的是AL-31F；歼-10A/S使用的是AL-31FN；歼-10B/C使用的是应用AL-31F M1升级技术的FN；歼-15目前使用的是AL-31F3；苏-35使用的是AL-41F-1S；歼-11B/BS目前使用的是涡扇-10A；歼-16使用的是涡扇-10B；歼-20目前量产的型号使用的是中国改造过的AL-31F，即将量产的型号使用的是“太行”发动机（具体型号和其他战机不同），未来还计划装备涡扇-15发动机；而歼-10C及其后续发展型号也要使用机匣下置的“太行”发动机型号……
> 
> Google translate
> However, for the People's Liberation Army, the problem with this engine model is somewhat more troublesome. China has not only the various models of AL-31F series engines introduced over the years, but also the self-developed turbofan-10 "Taihang" series turbofan engines. In the future, there will be more advanced turbofan-15 engines, so that the PLA can simultaneously There may be more types of turbofan engines: Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK, J-11 fighters use AL-31F; 歼-10A/S use AL-31FN; 歼-10B/C It is FN using AL-31F M1 upgrade technology; 歼-15 is currently using AL-31F3; Su-35 is using AL-41F-1S; 歼-11B/BS is currently using turbofan-10A; 歼- 16 uses the turbofan-10B; the current model of the* 歼-20 is the modified AL-31F in China, and the model to be mass-produced is the "Taihang" engine (the specific model is different from other fighters), the future It is also planned to be equipped with a turbofan-15 engine; the 歼-10C and its subsequent development models also use the "Taihang" engine model under the machine...
> *


*
*


> ▲ 歼-20一个型号未来可能要有三种不同发动机的亚型同时服役
> 这还没算上如果国产矢量喷口投入使用之后衍生出来的其他型号。显然对于解放军来说，简化发动机型号和种类的必要性甚至比俄罗斯更加迫切一些。尽管这种局面的出现和我国在21世纪初航空工业在动力领域两条腿走路的局面有关，在当时也确实是有其合理性和必要性的选择，但在国产航发的性能水平不断提升，可靠性逐渐赶上，产能产量也进一步扩大的今天，使用国产发动机来适度简化解放军机队的发动机型号，改善和减小机务部门面对多种机型时的保障压力，也许会成为一件值得认真考虑的事情。
> 
> Google translate
> ▲ 歼-20 One model may have three subtypes of different engines in the future.
> This is not counting other models that were derived after the domestic vector nozzles were put into use. Obviously, for the PLA, the need to simplify engine models and types is even more urgent than Russia. Although the emergence of this situation is related to the situation in which the aviation industry walked on the two legs in the power field in the early 21st century, it did have its rationality and necessity at that time, *but the performance level of domestic aviation has been continuously improved. Today, the reliability is gradually catching up, and the production capacity is further expanding. Today, the use of domestic engines to moderately simplify the engine model of the PLA fleet, i*mprove and reduce the pressure on the maintenance of the various parts of the aircraft department, may become a piece of Things that deserve serious consideration.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> A translation via Hendrik_2000/SDF:


But isn't this a trend we've been observing for the past couple years now?


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## Su33KUB

*Pakistan refuses Chinese engines in China’s JF-17 fighters*
POSTED BY CRAIG HILL ⋅ SEPTEMBER 1, 2019






China’s JF-17 Fighter

As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft.

However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the Pakistan Air Force rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.

The 2019 India-Pakistan border skirmish resulted in major shake-ups within the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The most accepted narrative, that of a loss of an IAF MiG-21 Bison to no losses of the Pakistan Air Force bodes poorly for the IAF. But interestingly,according to a July interview, the skirmish marked one of the first “hot” use of Pakistan’s new Chinese JF-17 “Thunder” fighters.

The JF-17 is a relatively new single-engine fighter, meant to compete against other light fighters like the F-16, Gripen, and MiG-29 for export contracts. As the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only large user, most solid information about the aircraft is from Chinese marketing documents. But the July interview gives one pilot’s opinion on how the JF-17 stacks up against most common adversaries, from Sukhois to F-16s.

The extent of the JF-17’s “hot” usage following the border skirmish was in patrols near the border. In some incidents, the pilot said that during these patrols, he was getting radar lock-on Su-30MKIs at ranges in excess of 100 kilometers.

However, this doesn’t mean that a JF-17 could kill with a missile at that range. The JF-17’s primary beyond-visual-range (BVR) armament is the PL-12 missile, which is still undergoing integration (as of February 2019). During the actual border air skirmish, PAF F-16s lobbed AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles at similar ranges, which forced IAF aircraft to go defensive to dodge the missiles, but no kills were scored. As the PL-12 is said to have a similar range to the AMRAAM, it’s likely that its kinematic performance at range is similar, and it too wouldn’t be able to score a kill.

But if the JF-17 allows the pilot to “lob” a missile at planes at such ranges, it still might be a step ahead of the IAF’s Su-30MKIs. According toan NDTV report, the Russian R-77 missiles cannot engage targets past 80 km.

Despite the Su-30’s missile limitations, the JF-17 pilot said that the Su-30 was one of the most formidable threats the PAF faces. This is likely due to the strong engines and maneuvering capability of the Su-30, which allows it to recover energy quickly after maneuvering and makes it hard to shoot down in a within visual range (WVR) engagement.

Interestingly, the pilot then goes onto state that he’s not that afraid of the Su-30 because he’s trained against F-16s with AMRAAMs, which he thinks is a far superior missile. The pilot also states that the MICA on the Mirage is also a significant threat.

This suggests that the pilot probably thinks that the fight will be largely decided, or largely influenced by the BVR stage of the engagement and that the JF-17’s capabilities in that arena are competitive to the F-16 and Mirage. However, the pilot does say that the JF-17’s limited BVR loadout is its main weakness, as most models of the JF-17 can only carry four BVR missiles, compared to the Su-30MKI which can carry eight or more.

The pilot also gives good marks to the JF-17 for reliability, flight characteristics, and maintenance. As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft. However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the PAF rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.

_Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues._

https://chinadailymail.com/2019/09/01/pakistan-refuses-chinese-engines-in-chinas-jf-17-fighters/


----------



## Figaro

Su33KUB said:


> *Pakistan refuses Chinese engines in China’s JF-17 fighters*
> POSTED BY CRAIG HILL ⋅ SEPTEMBER 1, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s JF-17 Fighter
> 
> As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft.
> 
> However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the Pakistan Air Force rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.
> 
> The 2019 India-Pakistan border skirmish resulted in major shake-ups within the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The most accepted narrative, that of a loss of an IAF MiG-21 Bison to no losses of the Pakistan Air Force bodes poorly for the IAF. But interestingly,according to a July interview, the skirmish marked one of the first “hot” use of Pakistan’s new Chinese JF-17 “Thunder” fighters.
> 
> The JF-17 is a relatively new single-engine fighter, meant to compete against other light fighters like the F-16, Gripen, and MiG-29 for export contracts. As the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only large user, most solid information about the aircraft is from Chinese marketing documents. But the July interview gives one pilot’s opinion on how the JF-17 stacks up against most common adversaries, from Sukhois to F-16s.
> 
> The extent of the JF-17’s “hot” usage following the border skirmish was in patrols near the border. In some incidents, the pilot said that during these patrols, he was getting radar lock-on Su-30MKIs at ranges in excess of 100 kilometers.
> 
> However, this doesn’t mean that a JF-17 could kill with a missile at that range. The JF-17’s primary beyond-visual-range (BVR) armament is the PL-12 missile, which is still undergoing integration (as of February 2019). During the actual border air skirmish, PAF F-16s lobbed AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles at similar ranges, which forced IAF aircraft to go defensive to dodge the missiles, but no kills were scored. As the PL-12 is said to have a similar range to the AMRAAM, it’s likely that its kinematic performance at range is similar, and it too wouldn’t be able to score a kill.
> 
> But if the JF-17 allows the pilot to “lob” a missile at planes at such ranges, it still might be a step ahead of the IAF’s Su-30MKIs. According toan NDTV report, the Russian R-77 missiles cannot engage targets past 80 km.
> 
> Despite the Su-30’s missile limitations, the JF-17 pilot said that the Su-30 was one of the most formidable threats the PAF faces. This is likely due to the strong engines and maneuvering capability of the Su-30, which allows it to recover energy quickly after maneuvering and makes it hard to shoot down in a within visual range (WVR) engagement.
> 
> Interestingly, the pilot then goes onto state that he’s not that afraid of the Su-30 because he’s trained against F-16s with AMRAAMs, which he thinks is a far superior missile. The pilot also states that the MICA on the Mirage is also a significant threat.
> 
> This suggests that the pilot probably thinks that the fight will be largely decided, or largely influenced by the BVR stage of the engagement and that the JF-17’s capabilities in that arena are competitive to the F-16 and Mirage. However, the pilot does say that the JF-17’s limited BVR loadout is its main weakness, as most models of the JF-17 can only carry four BVR missiles, compared to the Su-30MKI which can carry eight or more.
> 
> The pilot also gives good marks to the JF-17 for reliability, flight characteristics, and maintenance. As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft. However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the PAF rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.
> 
> _Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues._
> 
> https://chinadailymail.com/2019/09/01/pakistan-refuses-chinese-engines-in-chinas-jf-17-fighters/


So basically this article is rehashing a 4 year old report on the JF-17's engines ... nothing new or insightful.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> So basically this article is rehashing a 4 year old report on the JF-17's engines ... nothing new or insightful.


Who is Charlie Gao?


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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> Who is Charlie Gao?





Su33KUB said:


> Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College


Another "expert" cut from the Mizokami/Lockie/Chan cloth.

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## 055_destroyer

Figaro said:


> So basically this article is rehashing a 4 year old report on the JF-17's engines ... nothing new or insightful.


Actually, this article is playing with words. When ask about PAF, they never claim they reject Chinese engine for their JF-17 but claim satisfy with current Russian engine for JF-17.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...93-engine-for-jf-17-say-paf-officials.409312/

*"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme."*

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## lcloo

Guess who is the publisher and owner of China Daily Mail?

*China Daily Mail *is a Brisbane based publication founded by Craig Hill in 2012. Craig has previously written in China for the popular expat website eChinacities and was editor of China Trade Mag.

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## 055_destroyer

lcloo said:


> Guess who is the publisher and owner of China Daily Mail?
> 
> *China Daily Mail *is a Brisbane based publication founded by Craig Hill in 2012. Craig has previously written in China for the popular expat website eChinacities and was editor of China Trade Mag.


@Su33KUB

So basically, the article you post about China aero engine for JF-17 is non insightful and can be ignore. Can we say that? Cos it has zero reliability anything from real situation from China. Basically this article is just an ill attempt to discredit China aero engine industry.

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## samsara

Does any one notice that even the website NAMING itself "chinadailymail" is rather insincere. It simply shows some dishonesty! Sinister plot. At a glimpse it may give theffalse impression that the site has some link with the CHINA DAILY, a major publication of China.

Upon noting the article source I don't even bother to check who or which party is behind the website as its quality already reveal itself. But good that some PDF folks are willing to dig further.


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## ZeEa5KPul

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/


> The latest rumor (September 2019) claimed that *J-20* is being tested with the newly integrated WS-15 turbofan engine.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @兵工科技 from Weixin

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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 579963
> View attachment 579964
> 
> Via @兵工科技 from Weixin


"Intelligent property rights"




Why is there still this ridiculous Chinglish in this day and age?

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## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 579963
> View attachment 579964
> 
> Via @兵工科技 from Weixin


Do we know if this one belong to the WL UAVs?


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## aliaselin

bahadur999 said:


> Do we know if this one belong to the WL UAVs?


yes and sure


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## Maxpane

can anyone translate it what she is saying


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## GeHAC

Maxpane said:


> can anyone translate it what she is saying


Just some amateur level specs rumor about WS-15 and comparison with F119, dont take it seriously.

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## Maxpane

GeHAC said:


> Just some amateur level specs rumor about WS-15 and comparison with F119, dont take it seriously.


ok thanks


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## Figaro

Maxpane said:


> can anyone translate it what she is saying


Usually really import releases of information about Chinese jet engines come from Chinese forums or Weibo rather than the form of videos

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## JSCh

*Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China*
*10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin*

Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.



Safran

"Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".

Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."



Relmy Bertrand - Safran

The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range. 

The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.


Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China | Safran Helicopter Engines

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 585059




Could you please translate or give at least a summary?? Thanks.


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## bahadur999

Deino said:


> Could you please translate or give at least a summary?? Thanks.


Deino, I think it should be part of the forum rules that if you upload something in Chinese, you should at least give a short brief in english.


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## Deino

bahadur999 said:


> Deino, I think it should be part of the forum rules that if you upload something in Chinese, you should at least give a short brief in english.



It is and therefore I kindly remind those guys who eventually forgot this rule.


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## Dungeness

Deino said:


> Could you please translate or give at least a summary?? Thanks.




"More important than the upcoming carrier based AEWC itself, it is its WJ-10 engine, the first fully indigenously developed 5000 Hp class Turbo-Prop aero-engine, that could be in turn used to upgrade Y-8 and Y-9 transporters currently in active service, or used on new generation of median weight transporters, though it may not be the most advanced turbo-prop nor the most powerful one like NK-12".

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## Deino

Dungeness said:


> "More important than the upcoming carrier based AEWC itself, it is its WJ-10 engine, the first fully indigenously developed 5000 Hp class Turbo-Prop aero-engine, that could be in turn used to upgrade Y-8 and Y-9 transporters currently in active service, or used on new generation of median weight transporters, though it may not be the most advanced turbo-prop nor the most powerful one like NK-12".



Thank you so much !


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Is there any word about a successor to the WZ-10? The T700 (most advanced variant ~1500kW) is going to be replaced with the T901 (~2200kW) beginning in 2024. That's the plan but whenever the US military announces anything, add years of delays.


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## Paul2

帅的一匹 said:


> it doesn't make sense to blame AL31 engine, it serves as stopgap for our fighters until WS10 engines get matured.


Fire Xie once and for all, and find somebody more capable. They spent 20 years making a copy of R-79, and who knows how much money, and still no engine in production... Tan Ruisong should also be asked where all that money went.

Chinese aerospace companies were and are a complete facepalm in their current condition.

Naval industry was whacked good in Zhu's years, and is now more or less globally competitive. Chinese frigates are selling like hot cookies. But there were not enough Zhus left for our aerospace industry.


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## vi-va

Dungeness said:


> "More important than the upcoming carrier based AEWC itself, it is its WJ-10 engine, the first fully indigenously developed 5000 Hp class Turbo-Prop aero-engine, that could be in turn used to upgrade Y-8 and Y-9 transporters currently in active service, or used on new generation of median weight transporters, though it may not be the most advanced turbo-prop nor the most powerful one like NK-12".


He(the original OP in Chinese) made a mistake, the WJ-10 is NOT 5000 HP, it's 5000 KW.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## JSCh

JSCh said:


> *Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China*
> *10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin*
> 
> Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> Safran
> 
> "Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".
> 
> Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."
> 
> 
> 
> Relmy Bertrand - Safran
> 
> The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range.
> 
> The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.
> 
> 
> Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China | Safran Helicopter Engines


*Safran and AECC strengthen industrial cooperation on WZ16 engine*



Remy Bertrand - Safran

*6 November 2019, Beijing*

Safran and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) have signed a memorandum of agreement to strengthen their industrial cooperation on the WZ16 French-Chinese helicopter engine. This agreement was signed in Beijing by Alexandre Ziegler, Safran Senior Executive Vice President, International and Public Affairs, and AECC Chairman Cao Jianguo, during French President Emmanuel Macron's State Visit to China.

The WZ16 is jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC. Certification by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) was announced on 10 October 2019. The engine is installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter.

Through this memorandum of agreement, Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC agree to:

Study opportunity for a joint venture in China to support and maintain in-service WZ16.
Prepare and launch production ramp-up of WZ16 to deliver a first order of 120 engines and discuss opportunity for 100 additional units.
Discuss new applications for WZ16, including turboprop variant for fixed-wing aircraft.
Alexandre Ziegler says that "the WZ16 partnership between Safran and AECC is already a success as the first jointly-developed aero-engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. This new agreement is an opportunity to enlarge our partnership, especially as we prepare for certification and entry-into-service".

Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018. 

The AC352's maiden flight took place on December 2016 and certification is planned for 2021.


Safran and AECC strengthen industrial cooperation on WZ16 engine | Safran Helicopter Engines

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## StormBreaker

Oh, btw, Good news !!!

@Deino @beijingwalker @LKJ86 Confirm it kindly !!

China has acquired Ukrainian Aero Engine Giant “Motor Sich Aero Engines”.

China was previously a stakeholder in the company. This acquisition will result in getting more assistance and required expertise to deploy even more advanced engines.

Source : https://twitter.com/lyhcbmsenivrssu/status/1205870398459367424?s=21

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## waja2000

StormBreaker said:


> Oh, btw, Good news !!!
> 
> @Deino @beijingwalker @LKJ86 Confirm it kindly !!
> China has acquired Ukrainian Aero Engine Giant “Motor Sich Aero Engines”.
> China was previously a stakeholder in the company. This acquisition will result in getting more assistance and required expertise to deploy even more advanced engines.
> Source :
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205870398459367424



Today got other news china acquired Ukrainian Aero Engine is stop after Ukriane receive US aide. 
Believe only official contract is sign.


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## obj 705A

StormBreaker said:


> Oh, btw, Good news !!!
> 
> @Deino @beijingwalker @LKJ86 Confirm it kindly !!
> 
> China has acquired Ukrainian Aero Engine Giant “Motor Sich Aero Engines”.
> 
> China was previously a stakeholder in the company. This acquisition will result in getting more assistance and required expertise to deploy even more advanced engines.
> 
> Source :
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205870398459367424https://twitter.com/lyhcbmsenivrssu/status/1205870398459367424?s=21



I googled it & found absolutely no news about this alleged news of China aquiring Motor Sich, they are only a stake holder apparently, so take this news of the takeover with 100 thousand tonnes of salt.


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## aliaselin

Some new type:
WS-21 KJ-80 WZ-7(used by wide body Z-8) WZ-12


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## Grandy

_Image: Reuters_

*China Is Building More Powerful Jet Engines, And Is Selling Tech*

China's air force could be about to get a big boost.
by Eugene K. Chow
*Key point:* China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

Chinese engineering has become so advanced that German jet engines could soon get a major boost from China.
Officials in China have begun talks to sell sophisticated aerospace technology and manufacturing equipment to Germany for the production of high-performance jet engines.

As China moves to rapidly build its commercial and military aviation industry, the nation has made significant engineering breakthroughs, most notably in turbine blades, which convert the heat from fuel combustion into thrust. Turbine blades are one of the most critical components of an airplane, determining a jet engine’s safety, power and endurance.

Engineers in China have developed new processes that can make lighter and stronger blades using a hollow structure as well as single-crystal alloys that can withstand high temperatures and a special coating to facilitate cooling. These advances mean Chinese-made turbine blades are able to withstand temperatures several hundred degrees Celsius higher than the melting point of metallic alloys.
These advances are at the center of a possible sale to Germany along with manufacturing equipment that uses lasers to drill ultra-fine holes in turbine blades to keep blades cool by increasing air flow.

“Our machine has outperformed [Germany’s] on some benchmarks,” an anonymous source involved in the negotiations told the _South China Morning Post_. “The Germans have seen and grown interested in our technology.”

Discussions for the sale are still in the early stages, but even the possibility of an agreement with Germany, which created the world’s first production-ready jet engine and has long been revered for its design and manufacturing prowess, is a major victory for China as it seeks to shift its reputation away from cheaply made knockoffs to high-end innovation.

Aerospace is one of the key sectors of the “Made In China 2025” initiative, which calls for massive government investment to create thriving self-sufficient domestic industries. But long before the initiative was announced, China has been hard at work developing domestically-produced military aircraft.

In 2011, China stunned the world with the J-20, the nation’s first stealth fighter meant to rival America’s F-22 Raptor. With the J-20, China became only the second nation after the United States with a tactical stealth jet in service.

Just three years later, China unveiled the J-31 stealth multirole fighter jet, which looks remarkably like the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Analysts believe the Chinese built the J-31 using stolen F-35 blueprints.

China’s fifth-generation fighters currently rely on Russian engines, but recent breakthroughs have given the nation the ability to manufacture their own. In September, images revealed China had built a stealth engine for the J-20 equipped with serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps to help minimize its radar signature.

As China turns its attention to commercial airliners, it is only a matter of time before it begins to produce jet engines for commercial use.

In China’s rapid rise, it has previously turned to German aerospace companies to gain intellectual property and industrial know-how. In 2013, China acquired Germany’s Thielert Aircraft Engines after it filed for bankruptcy. The agreement included Thielert’s technology as well as their manufacturing facilities and equipment.

More recently, China has set its sights on purchasing Cotesa, an innovative German aerospace manufacturer that supplies parts for Airbus and Boeing. But the deal is currently on hold pending a review by the German government under new rules that grant the state more authority to block foreign takeovers.

The rules were passed in the midst of growing concerns of Chinese companies acquiring German and other EU companies operating in sensitive industries like aerospace, robotics and computer chips.

China’s plan to supply Germany with jet engine turbine blade technology is likely to face similar hurdles as Germany partners with Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and other American engine manufacturers. Even if German authorities approve the deal, the sale could still be blocked by the U.S. government which considers jet engine manufacturers as strategic domestic companies.

Regardless of whether this deal succeeds or not, it is apparent that China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

_Eugene K. Chow writes on foreign policy and military affairs. His work has been published in _Foreign Policy, The Week_ and _The Diplomat_. This first appeared in January 2018._

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## Aasimkhan

Grandy said:


> _Image: Reuters_
> 
> *China Is Building More Powerful Jet Engines, And Is Selling Tech*
> 
> China's air force could be about to get a big boost.
> by Eugene K. Chow
> *Key point:* China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.
> 
> Chinese engineering has become so advanced that German jet engines could soon get a major boost from China.
> Officials in China have begun talks to sell sophisticated aerospace technology and manufacturing equipment to Germany for the production of high-performance jet engines.
> 
> As China moves to rapidly build its commercial and military aviation industry, the nation has made significant engineering breakthroughs, most notably in turbine blades, which convert the heat from fuel combustion into thrust. Turbine blades are one of the most critical components of an airplane, determining a jet engine’s safety, power and endurance.
> 
> Engineers in China have developed new processes that can make lighter and stronger blades using a hollow structure as well as single-crystal alloys that can withstand high temperatures and a special coating to facilitate cooling. These advances mean Chinese-made turbine blades are able to withstand temperatures several hundred degrees Celsius higher than the melting point of metallic alloys.
> These advances are at the center of a possible sale to Germany along with manufacturing equipment that uses lasers to drill ultra-fine holes in turbine blades to keep blades cool by increasing air flow.
> 
> “Our machine has outperformed [Germany’s] on some benchmarks,” an anonymous source involved in the negotiations told the _South China Morning Post_. “The Germans have seen and grown interested in our technology.”
> 
> Discussions for the sale are still in the early stages, but even the possibility of an agreement with Germany, which created the world’s first production-ready jet engine and has long been revered for its design and manufacturing prowess, is a major victory for China as it seeks to shift its reputation away from cheaply made knockoffs to high-end innovation.
> 
> Aerospace is one of the key sectors of the “Made In China 2025” initiative, which calls for massive government investment to create thriving self-sufficient domestic industries. But long before the initiative was announced, China has been hard at work developing domestically-produced military aircraft.
> 
> In 2011, China stunned the world with the J-20, the nation’s first stealth fighter meant to rival America’s F-22 Raptor. With the J-20, China became only the second nation after the United States with a tactical stealth jet in service.
> 
> Just three years later, China unveiled the J-31 stealth multirole fighter jet, which looks remarkably like the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Analysts believe the Chinese built the J-31 using stolen F-35 blueprints.
> 
> China’s fifth-generation fighters currently rely on Russian engines, but recent breakthroughs have given the nation the ability to manufacture their own. In September, images revealed China had built a stealth engine for the J-20 equipped with serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps to help minimize its radar signature.
> 
> As China turns its attention to commercial airliners, it is only a matter of time before it begins to produce jet engines for commercial use.
> 
> In China’s rapid rise, it has previously turned to German aerospace companies to gain intellectual property and industrial know-how. In 2013, China acquired Germany’s Thielert Aircraft Engines after it filed for bankruptcy. The agreement included Thielert’s technology as well as their manufacturing facilities and equipment.
> 
> More recently, China has set its sights on purchasing Cotesa, an innovative German aerospace manufacturer that supplies parts for Airbus and Boeing. But the deal is currently on hold pending a review by the German government under new rules that grant the state more authority to block foreign takeovers.
> 
> The rules were passed in the midst of growing concerns of Chinese companies acquiring German and other EU companies operating in sensitive industries like aerospace, robotics and computer chips.
> 
> China’s plan to supply Germany with jet engine turbine blade technology is likely to face similar hurdles as Germany partners with Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and other American engine manufacturers. Even if German authorities approve the deal, the sale could still be blocked by the U.S. government which considers jet engine manufacturers as strategic domestic companies.
> 
> Regardless of whether this deal succeeds or not, it is apparent that China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.
> 
> _Eugene K. Chow writes on foreign policy and military affairs. His work has been published in _Foreign Policy, The Week_ and _The Diplomat_. This first appeared in January 2018._


Seems they still have a long way to go. By now they should have been able to provide reliable fighter jet engines with 12000 hours life.


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## Deino

Can anyone help this guy with some information?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211656023808696320


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## Haris Ali2140

Deino said:


> Can anyone help this guy with some information?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211656023808696320


You are talking with those who thinks that J 10 is bad because is crashes and Tejas hasn't crashed a single time.

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Can anyone help this guy with some information?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211656023808696320


Never try to convince everyone...

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Can anyone help this guy with some information?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211656023808696320


Haters gonna hate hate hate ...


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## mike2000 is back

Aasimkhan said:


> Seems they still have a long way to go. By now they should have been able to provide reliable fighter jet engines with 12000 hours life.


Jet engine technology is a very complex sector. Only few countries like U.S, U.K, France, Russia(might add Germany) have so far shown they can produce reliable mass produced jet engines for various purposes and that are used worldwide. China is a new comer in the block, but i think they have been doing a fairly good job and they have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in this sector, they are almost there i think. They just need more time i suppose. It's not a day job, demands patience and constant long term investment/commitment.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## UKBengali

mike2000 is back said:


> Jet engine technology is a very complex sector. Only few countries like U.S, U.K, France, Russia(might add Germany) have so far shown they can produce reliable mass produced jet engines for various purposes and that are used worldwide. China is a new comer in the block, but i think they have been doing a fairly good job and they have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in this sector, they are almost there i think. They just need more time i suppose. It's not a day job, demands patience and constant long term investment/commitment.



Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.

Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.


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## aliaselin

UKBengali said:


> Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.
> 
> Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.


P1's engine is junk. P1's adequancy is only 10%, and most of it due to its engine.


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## fatman17

*Tuesday, December 31, 2019*
* Chinese Fighter Turbine Engines: Production Outlook through 2026 *

A recent Alert5 article "China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines" used production forecasts from the Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. to suggest that China was having trouble developing engines. However, the assumptions Alert5 used as to which aircraft would use which engine were not entirely correct, as evidenced by recent pics of J-20 production aircraft fitted with WS-10C instead of projected WS-15. Particularly in terms of fighter aircraft, we can see now that indigenous engine production is more than capable of supporting a tremendous number of new airframes in the coming years.

CDF Forum Member "Pierrotlefeu" explains how:

_WS-10C is just a placeholder for J-20 like Al-31F was for J-10. It allows the first batch of J-20s to be operationalized and put into service, which is important to get feedback for improvement and familiarize the fighter corps. The WS-15 may not appear in service until after 2026, which is actually FASTER than how WS-10 was for the J-10 (entered service 2008, indigenous engine 2019, 11 years vs potentially 8)._

_What is more interesting is that production of WS-10 is slated to reach 2740 engines by 2026. Assuming worst case scenario of 1/3 for spares and re-engine of older planes, that leaves around 1800 engines for new planes. Assume China will maintain the current production rate of 24 annually for J-20, which I think will be the plan until WS-15 becomes available, just like how J-10 production was kept low until J-10C became available, then that would be 7 x 24 x 2 = 336 engines for J-20, leaving 1464 engines. Assume production of Flankers and J-10s stay at the same 1:1 rate we've been seeing, then we'll have an additional 1464 : 3 ~ 488 each of Flankers and J-10s. I'm counting J-11s, 15s, 16s, and 17s as just "Flankers" here, and 2 carriers will need 2 x 48 x 2 (one regiment deployed, one spare) = 192 J-15s and 17s. _

_*That's potentially 168 new J-20s, 488 J-10s, and 488 homemade Flankers (including naval ones). That's 1144 new fighters from the availability of a single engine type, not bad at all. *_

_Of course, many will replace J-7s and J-8s still in inventory as well as older Flankers and J-10s, so net growth won't be too extreme for now._







Like WS-10C on J-20 instead of WS-15, it would be reasonable to expect the WS-10 series turbines to also power any early production FC-31 navalized Gen 5 fighters instead of WS-19. This would ameliorate the low-rate initial production of WS-19 and counterindicate "struggling" in that program as well.









Posted by  SteveM  at 5:59 PM  No comments:  Links to this post 


Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

*Monday, December 30, 2019*
* China Finally Closes the Engine Gap: 100% Domestic Jet Fighter Engines *

A series of recent images has confirmed that China is no longer reliant on Russian turbines to power it's burgeoning fleet of combat aircraft. New-build production J-10C and J-20 aircraft are leaving the Chengdu factory with indigenous WS-10 "Taihang"engines installed. Previously these aircraft were delivered with variants of the Russian-produced Salyut AL-31 engine.

In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.















Posted by  SteveM  at 5:39 AM  2 comments:  Links to this post 


Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

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## UKBengali

aliaselin said:


> P1's engine is junk. P1's adequancy is only 10%, and most of it due to its engine.



No P1's engine is not junk, just not a high thrust turbofan and hence why the plane needs 4 engines.
It has given Japan the experience to developing 5th gen engine for their F-3 fighter.


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## aliaselin

UKBengali said:


> No P1's engine is not junk, just not a high thrust turbofan and hence why the plane needs 4 engines.
> It has given Japan the experience to developing 5th gen engine for their F-3 fighter.


Firstly, as I said, majority due to its faulty engine， P1 has an adequancy ratio of 10%，while generally for a patrol plane it should be larger than 80%
Secondly, as a high by-pass engine, P1 used F-7 engine has nothing to do with a F3 used XF-9, which is a low by-pass afterburn fighter used engine. eg， in Soviet era, JSC Kuznetsov, Aviadvigatel and motor sich produced low by-pass engine, while Klimov and NPO Saturn produced low by-pass afterburn engine. These two types of engines are quite different on specific technology.


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## Deino

*Can we remain on topic, which is Chinese engines.*

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## Figaro

UKBengali said:


> Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.
> 
> Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.


Im sorry but what is to suggest in all of Japan's engine making history that it has the capability to develop a F-119 class engine?


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## UKBengali

fatman17 said:


> *Tuesday, December 31, 2019*
> * Chinese Fighter Turbine Engines: Production Outlook through 2026 *
> 
> A recent Alert5 article "China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines" used production forecasts from the Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. to suggest that China was having trouble developing engines. However, the assumptions Alert5 used as to which aircraft would use which engine were not entirely correct, as evidenced by recent pics of J-20 production aircraft fitted with WS-10C instead of projected WS-15. Particularly in terms of fighter aircraft, we can see now that indigenous engine production is more than capable of supporting a tremendous number of new airframes in the coming years.
> 
> CDF Forum Member "Pierrotlefeu" explains how:
> 
> _WS-10C is just a placeholder for J-20 like Al-31F was for J-10. It allows the first batch of J-20s to be operationalized and put into service, which is important to get feedback for improvement and familiarize the fighter corps. The WS-15 may not appear in service until after 2026, which is actually FASTER than how WS-10 was for the J-10 (entered service 2008, indigenous engine 2019, 11 years vs potentially 8)._
> 
> _What is more interesting is that production of WS-10 is slated to reach 2740 engines by 2026. Assuming worst case scenario of 1/3 for spares and re-engine of older planes, that leaves around 1800 engines for new planes. Assume China will maintain the current production rate of 24 annually for J-20, which I think will be the plan until WS-15 becomes available, just like how J-10 production was kept low until J-10C became available, then that would be 7 x 24 x 2 = 336 engines for J-20, leaving 1464 engines. Assume production of Flankers and J-10s stay at the same 1:1 rate we've been seeing, then we'll have an additional 1464 : 3 ~ 488 each of Flankers and J-10s. I'm counting J-11s, 15s, 16s, and 17s as just "Flankers" here, and 2 carriers will need 2 x 48 x 2 (one regiment deployed, one spare) = 192 J-15s and 17s. _
> 
> _*That's potentially 168 new J-20s, 488 J-10s, and 488 homemade Flankers (including naval ones). That's 1144 new fighters from the availability of a single engine type, not bad at all. *_
> 
> _Of course, many will replace J-7s and J-8s still in inventory as well as older Flankers and J-10s, so net growth won't be too extreme for now._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like WS-10C on J-20 instead of WS-15, it would be reasonable to expect the WS-10 series turbines to also power any early production FC-31 navalized Gen 5 fighters instead of WS-19. This would ameliorate the low-rate initial production of WS-19 and counterindicate "struggling" in that program as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted by  SteveM  at 5:59 PM  No comments:  Links to this post
> 
> 
> Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
> 
> *Monday, December 30, 2019*
> * China Finally Closes the Engine Gap: 100% Domestic Jet Fighter Engines *
> 
> A series of recent images has confirmed that China is no longer reliant on Russian turbines to power it's burgeoning fleet of combat aircraft. New-build production J-10C and J-20 aircraft are leaving the Chengdu factory with indigenous WS-10 "Taihang"engines installed. Previously these aircraft were delivered with variants of the Russian-produced Salyut AL-31 engine.
> 
> In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted by  SteveM  at 5:39 AM  2 comments:  Links to this post
> 
> 
> Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest



Excellent article but incorrect to suggest that WS-10B will be put in J-35 fighter - it is likely to be the WS-19 in development.


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## LKJ86

J-16 & WS-10








Via CCTV 1 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Deino

Does anyone have access to the full report?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221777625271521280
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air-warfare/chinese-military-jet-engine-production-plans-expos/

Here's my reply...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221828834913406978

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Does anyone have access to the full report?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221777625271521280
> https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air-warfare/chinese-military-jet-engine-production-plans-expos/
> 
> Here's my reply...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221828834913406978


These National Interest writers are super quick to quote things without context or proper background verification to write flashy headlines ...

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Does anyone have access to the full report?


Deino，you should believe that you are more logic than any other so-called military experts from Janes, National Interest, et al
If our "experts" are so incapacity as the experts on west media, I will lose confidence for my country as these people:
1. can not tell and differentiate true or false information
2. do not have some basic knowledge to understand and illustrate the information
3. do not have logic to get a solid conclusion

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## Ironborn

National Interests used to be somewhat respectable publication. Now besides couple authors ( you can literally count them with fingers in one hand), the rest all all *click bait*, *copy paste, change the title and published 10 times* kind of articles. Corporate medias now days are all about clicks and viewership.

Most of their articles are all like:

* Why Russia and China should fear this American weapon
* The xxx is the ultimate weapon to defeat country A or country B in the new war
* The five American weapons Russian and Chinese fear the most
etc, etc. 

Remember Minnie Chen published an article on South China Morning Post about China's economy isn't doing well, so the PLAN might not be able to afford anymore warships or ACs. Some turd picked it up right the way, there was an exactly same article on National Interests next day under the name of a different author who poop out 3+ articles on National Interests every day.

The worthy while authors that still on National Interest don't write such articles about certain weapons, they wrote articles about international relations, strategy and such.

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## fatman17

*Procurement: China Finally Masters Jet Engines*

January 28, 2020: Back in 2013 China announced that it was investing $16 billion in an effort to fix some of its problems encountered manufacturing high-performance (as in world-class) jet engines. Although China has been working on this for over three decades, continued problems with materials durability, efficient design and quality control have prevented Chinese engines from being competitive with Western models. That large investment appears to have paid off because by 2019 all new Chinese jet fighters were entering service with one of several variants of the WS10 engine.

The WS10 engine has been in development for 30 years so that it could eventually replace Russian AL31F engines used in the Russian Su-27/30 and Chinese clone (J-10/11/15/16) jet fighters. WS10 development efforts encountered one problem after another. Many Chinese engineers considered the WS10 design a superior engine to the AL31F, even though the WS10 copied a lot of Russian technology. The Chinese point out that as delivered from Russia, the AL31 is good for 900 hours of operation. Chinese engineers figured out how to tweak the design of the engine so that it lasted for 1,500 hours. While those tweaks worked on paper, the Chinese were frequently frustrated getting them to work as predicted because their Chinese suppliers could not produce key components to the needed level of quality and durability. Some of those recently invested billions were apparently spent on getting component suppliers to upgrade production techniques and product quality so that this weak link in the supply chain was no longer stalling full-scale production of the WS10.

After 2000 China believed it would be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years. By 2010 it was clear that the “within five years” expectations were not happening and that was a major reason for the additional $16 billion investment. The fundamental problem was that Russia and the nations that set the world standard in military high-tech had developed high-tech infrastructures. While Chinese designers could come up with superior (on paper) designs, the technical skills required to manufacture components and fabricate the actual device were not sufficiently developed to make the Chinese designs work as intended. You needed skilled and experienced workers and managers to get it all right. Within five years China fixed that problem, mainly because many component manufacturers were close to the goal already with the extra money and attention getting them the rest of the way, and able to produce complex components to spec and do it regularly.

Now there are at least seven variants of the WS10 being used in five different Chinese jet fighters. This includes the new J-20 stealth fighter where the WS10 is a placeholder engine until the more powerful WS15 shows up in five or six years. That is one reason why the J-20 is not being produced in large numbers yet.

China recently received some Russian Su-35 jet fighters and their advanced Al041F1 (or 117S) engines. This purchase was made, in part, to get a close look at the high-end tech the Russians have mastered (with some difficulty) to make this engine work. China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. Since 2000 China has gradually put more and more money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and component construction skills and that two decades of escalating efforts paid off.

China does have several advantages over Russia in this effort. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades. Despite all this, China continued to encounter problems with consistent quality in manufacturing key components. China has overcome those problems and mastered Russian engine building techniques. Now they are slowly expanding the rate of production while moving to eventually surpass the Western firms who have long been the masters of this technology.

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## Figaro

Ironborn said:


> National Interests used to be somewhat respectable publication. Now besides couple authors ( you can literally count them with fingers in one hand), the rest all all *click bait*, *copy paste, change the title and published 10 times* kind of articles. Corporate medias now days are all about clicks and viewership.
> 
> Most of their articles are all like:
> 
> * Why Russia and China should fear this American weapon
> * The xxx is the ultimate weapon to defeat country A or country B in the new war
> * The five American weapons Russian and Chinese fear the most
> etc, etc.
> 
> Remember Minnie Chen published an article on South China Morning Post about China's economy isn't doing well, so the PLAN might not be able to afford anymore warships or ACs. Some turd picked it up right the way, there was an exactly same article on National Interests next day under the name of a different author who poop out 3+ articles on National Interests every day.
> 
> The worthy while authors that still on National Interest don't write such articles about certain weapons, they wrote articles about international relations, strategy and such.


At least these crappy writers have started to quote reputable sources like @Deino and Rick Joe. Before they just made up information or exclusively relied on the all too famous Minnie Chan.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> At least these crappy writers have started to quote reputable sources like @Deino and Rick Joe. Before they just made up information or exclusively relied on the all too famous Minnie Chan.


They don't have other choices already...
They can't explain the developments of China by their old theory.

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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## Figaro

Ironborn said:


> National Interests used to be somewhat respectable publication. Now besides couple authors ( you can literally count them with fingers in one hand), the rest all all *click bait*, *copy paste, change the title and published 10 times* kind of articles. Corporate medias now days are all about clicks and viewership.
> 
> Most of their articles are all like:
> 
> * Why Russia and China should fear this American weapon
> * The xxx is the ultimate weapon to defeat country A or country B in the new war
> * The five American weapons Russian and Chinese fear the most
> etc, etc.
> 
> Remember Minnie Chen published an article on South China Morning Post about China's economy isn't doing well, so the PLAN might not be able to afford anymore warships or ACs. Some turd picked it up right the way, there was an exactly same article on National Interests next day under the name of a different author who poop out 3+ articles on National Interests every day.
> 
> The worthy while authors that still on National Interest don't write such articles about certain weapons, they wrote articles about international relations, strategy and such.


I cant think of a single credible/worthy national interest writer

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## Deino

Since @Beast correctly corrected a comment in the JF-17 Block 3 secrtion concerning this report, I would like to add it here too:

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/ws-13ipe-for-fc-31/



> *Guizhou Liyang Aero Engine Co., Ltd. affiliated to China Aviation Engine Corporation posted the company’s key tasks in 2020 recently, one of which is the implementation of small-batch production of a new aircraft engine.*
> 
> *The outside world generally believes that this new engine is probably WS-13IPE* (thrust-enhanced type), which mainly adds thrust on the basis of WS-13 engine in order to adapt to performance upgrade and improvement of fighters.




My point however is not to question that Guizhou itself posted its key-figures, but the added conclusion, that this might be related to the WS-13IPE and as such to the title "*WS-13IPE engine for FC-31 carrier-based fighter could be mass-produced in 2020*"!

Is the WS-13 the only new engine from Guizhou or could it be more likely related to another engine for another aircraft, since neither the WS-13 nor the type of aircraft is mentioned??

Best,
Deino

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> Since @Beast correctly corrected a comment in the JF-17 Block 3 secrtion concerning this report, I would like to add it here too:
> 
> https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/ws-13ipe-for-fc-31/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point however is not to question that Guizhou itself posted its key-figures, but the added conclusion, that this might be related to the WS-13IPE and as such to the title "*WS-13IPE engine for FC-31 carrier-based fighter could be mass-produced in 2020*"!
> 
> Is the WS-13 the only new engine from Guizhou or could it be more likely related to another engine for another aircraft, since neither the WS-13 nor the type of aircraft is mentioned??
> 
> Best,
> Deino



Is the estimated max wet thrust still 9500 kg or lower/higher?


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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Finally...
J-10C equipped with WS-10




Via https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5Jr7e-vzQd6FJP_reufeVA

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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> Finally...
> J-10C equipped with WS-10
> View attachment 610319
> 
> Via https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5Jr7e-vzQd6FJP_reufeVA



What are the Dry and wet Max Thrusts for this variant of the WS-10? Are there plans to put the WS-15 or WS-10C on the J-10?

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## Figaro

In light of the imminent induction (if it hasn't already occurred) of Taihang equipped J-10/J-20 into operational service, I wanted to remind everyone the picture that marked the beginning of this process. Below was the first picture taken of the J-20 equipped with WS-10 engines all the way back in August 2017. I still clearly remember the huge buzz on this and Sinodefence forum when the picture was taken ... and that was 2 and a half years ago! Wow time goes by fast ...

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## LKJ86

Via @钢铁机机 from Weibo

The information about the progress of WS-18: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/0YStkpsEriOvUG1X78XTYQ

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 611233
> 
> Via @钢铁机机 from Weibo
> 
> The information about the progress of WS-18: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/0YStkpsEriOvUG1X78XTYQ


Could you be very kind to provide a translation? Thank you so much


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## LKJ86

WS-10




Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## fatman17

*China makes moves on J-10 turbofan engines*
By
Jr Ng
-
March 20, 2020



WS-10B Taihang turbofan engine.


 

 
_*Screen captures of a video documentary released in early March by state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) suggest that the latest batch of J-10C multirole combat aircraft being manufactured for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) appear to have been fitted with indigenously manufactured Shenyang-Liming WS-10B Taihang turbofan engines.*_

*J-10 family*
The J-10 family is typically powered by more recent marks of the Russian-made Saturn AL-31FN turbofan that produce between 132kN and 137kN of dry thrust, although China has been attempting to develop an indigenous powerplant for the type as well as for other aircraft types in service with the PLAAF.

Efforts to develop the WS-10 turbofan engine, which is the first indigenous high-thrust turbofan engine, were initiated in 1987.

*WS-10 turbofan engines*
The service tried to field an earlier version of the WS-10 called the WS-10A, although it was found that the engine’s nominal dry thrust output – believed to be around the 132kN range – was deemed insufficient for future growth despite further development work to mature its design since it’s public unveiling at the 2006 edition of Airshow China.

Reliability was also reportedly to be an issue, so plans to mass produce the WS-10A engine for fleetwide installation were eventually dropped to focus on further development. As a result, subsequent tranches of J-10B and newer J10C aircraft continued to utilise the AL-31FN and low-rate production versions of the WS-10A that feature full authority digital engine control (FADEC) while engineers continued to mature the WS-10 design.

The fleeting images of the J-10Cs being readied for apparent delivery to the PLAAF showed a subtly different nozzle to that of AL-31FN or WS-10A-equipped aircraft.

*WS-10B engine*
According to local reports, the WS-10B employs significant amounts of advanced materials as high-strength titanium alloys, single crystal turbine blades, advanced superalloys, and high-temperature resin-based composite materials.

Images of photos of a J-10B testbed with a prototype WS-10B engine began to circulate on the internet around 2011, and updated images that emerged around 2016 purportedly showed production J-10C testbeds with more mature examples of the engine.

_by Jr Ng_

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## ZeEa5KPul

Diagram of WS-15 posted by huitong.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Diagram of WS-15 posted by huitong.


Is this legit?


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## Daniel808

Figaro said:


> Is this legit?



from Huitong.

Based on his track record, he is legit


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## Figaro

Daniel808 said:


> from Huitong.
> 
> Based on his track record, he is legit


Not all of Huitong information is accurate though ... also the nozzles don't look like they are sawtooth?


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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> Not all of Huitong information is accurate though ... also the nozzles don't look like they are sawtooth?


To be honest, it looks like an EJ200, especially the nozzle. It's a picture of a relief taken at one of the research institutes so the artist might have just used an EJ200 as a reference for "advanced engine."

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## ZeEa5KPul

supposedly a picture of a variable cycle engine in testing.

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## aliaselin

CJ-2000AX core engine C2XC-101 set fire and reach full speed

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## vi-va

aliaselin said:


> View attachment 624608
> 
> CJ-2000AX core engine C2XC-101 set fire and reach full speed


really awesome


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## aliaselin

Just found revenue of AECC has surpassed United Engine Corporation of Russia ever since 2018

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## Han Patriot

So means the report of selling 100+ engines per year was true

So means the report of selling 100+ engines per year was true


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## samsara

aliaselin said:


> View attachment 624608
> 
> CJ-2000AX core engine C2XC-101 set fire and reach full speed


Aircraft Engine by the AVIC Commercial Aircraft Engine Co., Ltd. (ACAE)

The core engine of the CJ-2000AX (C2XC-101) set ignition and reached full speed.

At the beginning of 2020, the development of the company's project, that is the Yangtze River 2000 Project (CJ denotes Changjiang or Yangtze River) has made a major breakthrough in the development of C2XC-101 engine core. On March 5, 2020, the engine ignition was done successfully. On March 10, the operating speed was 1.0, and on March 14, the air intake test performance was 1.0, with the maximum speed reaching 100.6%. *In the whole test process, the performance of the core engine was stable without overtemperature vibration.* And this completed the group responsibility target in 2020 ahead of the schedule.

The results of the first core engine of wide body airliner [COMAC C919], C2XC-101, is not only the first to verify the matching ability of each subsystem of the core engine, but also an *important platform to verify the key technology research results*. The successful completion of the air intake state test marks that the performance of each component of the core engine and its matching *meet the design expectation preliminarily*, which lays a solid foundation for the subsequent high-altitude test of the core engine and the overall test…

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## aliaselin

Something I have observed：
1. WS-15 is actually not very behind of WS-20
2. XAEC has started a new project last year, though I don't know what it is
3. QC-400 technology has been validated and wait for the senior government's approvement for formal development
4. WJ-10 project went smoothly
5. WS-13, probably also including WS-17 will enter mass production
6. WS-19 timeline is far behind WS-15, not like some people boasted it is quite near to WS-15

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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Something I have observed：
> 1. WS-15 is actually not very behind of WS-20
> 2. XAEC has started a new project last year, though I don't know what it is
> 3. QC-400 technology has been validated and wait for the senior government's approvement for formal development
> 4. WJ-10 project went smoothly
> 5. WS-13, probably also including WS-17 will enter mass production
> 6. WS-19 timeline is far behind WS-15, not like some people boasted it is quite near to WS-15




Hmmm??

1. ... but since WS-20 is far behind (at least our expectations), isn't then WS-15 also behind?
2. ?
3. ?
4. what is WJ-10?
5. I thought WS-17 is a hoax?
6. That is IMO not a surprise.

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Hmmm??
> 
> 1. ... but since WS-20 is far behind (at least our expectations), isn't then WS-15 also behind?
> 2. ?
> 3. ?
> 4. what is WJ-10?
> 5. I thought WS-17 is a hoax?
> 6. That is IMO not a surprise.


1. Well，at least not that bad in my opinion. Russians has recently said their Su-57 used _idz 30 _may enter service after 2025, I think WS-15 should be ahead of that if everything goes well. I guess WS-20 should get cerification in this year and enter small batch production the next year, and WS-15 may be one or two years later.
2. As I said I don't know what it is, but it should be a newly developped turbofan type. XAEC is the manufacture of WS-20 but this project is not WS-20 because it is started last year
3. QC-400 is 40MW gas turbine developed by Liming used by next generation destroyer/frigate
4. Turboprop used by KJ-600
5. WS-17 has taken flight with L-15 in 2016, but I don't know how it goes now.

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## Figaro

aliaselin said:


> Something I have observed：
> 1. WS-15 is actually not very behind of WS-20
> 2. XAEC has started a new project last year, though I don't know what it is
> 3. QC-400 technology has been validated and wait for the senior government's approvement for formal development
> 4. WJ-10 project went smoothly
> 5. WS-13, probably also including WS-17 will enter mass production
> 6. WS-19 timeline is far behind WS-15, not like some people boasted it is quite near to WS-15


What is the source of this information?

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## Aasimkhan

Can some one post Mean Time Between Overhaul (MTBO) of various chinese ans Russian engines ?


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## LKJ86

WS-10 and J-11BS





















































Via kj.81.cn

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## Aasimkhan

LKJ86 said:


> WS-10 and J-11BS
> View attachment 632270
> View attachment 632271
> View attachment 632272
> View attachment 632273
> View attachment 632274
> View attachment 632275
> View attachment 632276
> View attachment 632277
> View attachment 632278
> View attachment 632279
> View attachment 632280
> View attachment 632281
> View attachment 632282
> View attachment 632283
> View attachment 632284
> View attachment 632285
> View attachment 632286
> 
> Via kj.81.cn


How old are these pics? IS it latest WS 10 going into J11 ?


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## no smoking

Noticed that someone is trying to use hammer on the engine. Is that normal? or something is stuck?


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## OBLiTeRate TrumpTurd

no smoking said:


> Noticed that someone is trying to use hammer on the engine. Is that normal? or something is stuck?



that is a TORQUE SCREW DRIVER that need Hammer to rotate the driver axis.

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## laser911

no smoking said:


> Noticed that someone is trying to use hammer on the engine. Is that normal? or something is stuck?


As OBLiTeRate said, it is commonly used when changing the brake rotator on car. But yes normally it is something very tight. And I think it is called IMPACT screw driver.

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## CIA Mole

Does China have single crystal blades?


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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> Does China have single crystal blades?


Obviously. They've had single crystal blades since the 90s ... http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTotal-GXGC199701003.htm


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## Deino

Via by78/SDF:



> An interesting image, which seems to suggest that Y-20 is being used as an engine test platform. I wonder what engine is being tested here.








At least it looks substantially slimmer/smaller than a regular D-30KP-2/WS-18.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Via by78/SDF:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 644833
> 
> 
> At least it looks substantially slimmer/smaller than a regular D-30KP-2/WS-18.
> 
> View attachment 644832


Could it be possible this is the WS-15 we've been waiting for? Certainly would make sense for the Y-20 to be a test bed for it.


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## Figaro

Something related to the CNC software for the WS-15 on the public tender ... from November 2019





https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/eF0OQXbQBcKTI8n0B4ec2w

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278552563449815040

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278552563449815040


The question is when are we going to see the engines on the Y-20? We've seen them on paper and the IL-76 for the longest time now ...


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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Figaro

fatman17 said:


> In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. *Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.*
> Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest





UKBengali said:


> Excellent article but incorrect to suggest that WS-10B will be put in J-35 fighter - it is likely to be the WS-19 in development.


A very stupid article ...


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## S10

Word on the street on CD is that WS-10 has finally met its design goals in terms of performance and service life.

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## Figaro

S10 said:


> Word on the street on CD is that WS-10 has finally met its design goals in terms of performance and service life.


Do you have a link to the specific thread?


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## S10

Figaro said:


> Do you have a link to the specific thread?


https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2631100&extra=page=1&filter=typeid&typeid=155

I can't find the other one where the new WS-10 variant performance was mentioned. It was last week.

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## Figaro

An interesting read with a lot of quotes from our very own @Deino from last year
Analysis
*ANALYSIS: The secret world of Chinese fighter engines*
By Greg Waldron
16 July 2019

“A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,” is how Winston Churchill famously described Russia in 1939. The adage applies well, perhaps better, to Beijing’s secretive efforts to develop military engines for its future fleet of advanced fighters. While there can be no dispute that engines of all types are a major priority for Beijing, concrete news on progress is painfully hard to come by.

Engine capability and reliability are – and always have been – perhaps the single most important technical element in the success or failure of a combat aircraft. Advanced radars, missiles, an ability to network with other platforms, and low-observable technology count for little if a pilot cannot, owing to a lack of a capable engine, bring these capabilities to bear in combat. More broadly, shorter times between an engine’s major overhauls have a profound impact on the flight hours available for pilots to hone skills.

It has become somewhat of a cliché in defence circles that China struggles with engines. In chat rooms about the topic – where concrete evidence can be thin at best – commentators who propagate this contention are regularly set upon by those who argue, also without evidence, that China is making tremendous strides. In its annual report about Chinese military developments in May 2019, the US Department of Defence stated that China continues to struggle in two areas – radars and engines. It gave no indication about how it arrived at this view.

The need for better fighter engines, however, is abundantly clear. In recent years much has been made of the Chengdu J-20, touted as China’s first “fifth generation” fighter. Four examples appeared in the flying display at Airshow China in November 2018, greeted with rapture by air show crowds. The type is often compared to the Lockheed Martin F-22 or F-35, both of which have been mass produced and which feature mature engines.

What is consistently downplayed is that most of the small number of J-20s produced are probably powered by a Russian power plant, an upgraded version of the Saturn AL-31 that powers the Sukhoi Su-35. The status of the type’s ultimate engine, the developmental Xian Aero Engine WS-15 Emei, is far from clear. Estimates suggest that the WS-15’s maximum thrust will be 18.4t (180kN), potentially giving the J-20 genuine “fifth generation” performance, including supercruise – the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without engaging the afterburner. The lack of positive news – or any news whatsoever – could be interpreted as an admission by Beijing that it is still struggling with this engine. Complicating things is that occasionally Chinese aircraft experts take to state media to claim things are going well.

As the future powerplant of Beijing’s flagship fighter, the WS-15 is the centrepiece of a family of engines, developed by a universe of companies grouped under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC). The family includes the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang that powers Beijing’s fleet of J-11Bs (early versions of the J-11, a local copy of the Su-27, are powered by a version of the AL-31). The WS-10 will also eventually power the J-15 naval fighter, some examples of the J-20 and future J-10Cs. In addition, there is the WS-13 that will, hopefully, one day power locally produced UCAVs such as the AVIC Dark Sword, and the WS-19 that could one day power the FC-31. The WS-13 is also seen as potential interim powerplant for the developmental AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon, now powered by a pair of Klimov RD-93s.

Andreas Rupprecht is the author of _Modern Chinese Warplanes_, an authoritative guide to mainland air power, and a keen observer of Chinese military engine developments. He notes that stricter Internet security rules in China mean that far less news about Chinese engines leaks out. This leaves observers with a narrow, sanitised window provided by state media.

Rupprecht believes that while Beijing is definitely behind the West in engine technology, the industry has made great strides in recent years owing to large investment flows. He points to the relative success of the WS-10 Taihang family, which powers the majority of the Chinese Sukhoi Su-27-derived fleet, namely the J-11B and J-16. From a testing perspective, the engine has also been found on several J-10Bs and J-20As. He views the powerplant as emblematic of China’s aerospace sector.

“AVIC has invested a lot and initiated tremendous effort to improve quality control throughout the engine’s production chain since 2011,” he says. “To claim the WS-10 engine today is still unreliable is, in my view, unjustified, maybe even ridiculous. The number of operational Taihangs alone says a lot and one must consider that for years no Chinese-built [Su-27 derivative], with the exception of the J-15s, uses a Russian engine anymore.”

Some sense of Beijing’s confidence in the programme came at Zhuhai in 2018, where a surprise flying display was put on by a WS-10-powered J-10B equipped with thrust vectoring control (TVC) engine. TVC added a whole new dimension to the aircraft’s manoeuvrability. The short display was reminiscent of flying displays performed by other fighters with TVC, such as the Su-35 and F-22. Trailing pink smoke, the J-10B TVC’s routine included tight vertical loops, a slow high angle of attack roll, a cobra manoeuvre and the falling leaf. It was an iconic moment in the history of indigenous Chinese fighter engines.

Rupprecht’s view on the secrecy shrouding Chinese engine development in recent years is shared by Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International. “The Chinese government isn't transparent, and as far as I can tell, the regional media outlets don't know much more than anyone else,” he says.

He adds, however, that it is of paramount importance for Beijing to master not just engine technology, but the means of production.

“As long as they have to depend on Russian or stolen American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” he says. “So if they are to become the military equals of outside forces, they have to be able to create engines. And engines are the real limiting factor in indigenous fighter development. There are only a few companies worldwide who have the ability to design and build an all-new, state-of-the-art engine.”

Several fighter programmes illustrate the theme of indigenous fighters with foreign engines. The Saab Gripen, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) T-50, Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, are all powered by a General Electric engine. KAI’s planned KFX will also be powered by the F414, as will New Delhi’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Beijing is pouring great resources into its own development work, but is not above stealing technology. It is understood that the core of the WS-10 is based on CFM International CFM56 technology that China obtained in the 1980s. In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

The requirement for Beijing to steal technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.

Observers will also be watching Chinese firm Skyrizon’s effort to buy a majority stake in Ukrainian engine manufacturer Motor Sich, which produces turbofans and turboshafts. The potential deal is reportedly under review by the Ukrainian government, and is opposed by Washington DC. In May, the Washington Post reported that the company, which formerly relied on Russian aerospace work, sees few opportunities for its future outside of China.

Rupprecht adds that Beijing’s ultimate goal is to be completely “self-reliant in every aspect” of engine development and manufacturing.

“A good number of J-10s and J-11As, as well as their Xian Y-20s and H-6Ks, depend on Russian engines,” he says. “This is unacceptable for the longer term, especially if the political climate with Moscow were to change. Therefore they are placing great effort to develop new engines in different classes and establish a broad industrial base.”

*Tokyo, New Delhi power up*

The Asia-Pacific region's other great powers, Japan and India, also see the importance of advanced engine capabilities.

Tokyo was developing jet engines as long ago as the Second World War. A locally developed high-bypass-ratio turbofan, the IHI F7, powers the Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft.

In June 2018, IHI delivered the experimental XF9-1 engine, which can produce 33,000lb-thrust (147kN) with afterburner, for laboratory research work. If Tokyo decides to advance its Future Fighter programme to replace the Mitsubishi F-2, the new twin-engined stealth fighter could be powered by descendants of the XF9-1.

Another Japanese engine, the IHI XF5-1, powered Tokyo's X-2 technology demonstrator.

New Delhi's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) developed the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas fighter.

The Kaveri programme suffered numerous cost and technical issues, and was never installed on a Tejas, which instead uses the GE Aviation F404.

The Kaveri programme was abandoned for a period, but received a second chance in 2016 as the possible powerplant for New Delhi's planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Under offset agreements related to India's acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, France's Snecma is helping to revive the programme.

Still, great uncertainty remains over Indian jet engine technology. A recent media report quoted T Mohan Rao, a former head of GTRE, as saying the nation's efforts in propulsion will fall behind, owing to bureaucratic indifference and a lack of funding. Moreover, the Indian Air Force is understood to be highly dubious about the Kaveri.

_Source: FlightGlobal.com_

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## samsara

Excerpt #1:

“As long as they have to depend on Russian or *STOLEN American/European technology* to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” *Douglas Royce*, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at *Forecast International* says.


Excerpt #2:

*In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation*. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

Excerpt #3:

*The REQUIREMENT for Beijing to STEAL technology* was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based *Institute for National Strategic Studies* entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China *would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies,* and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China *to rely increasingly on espionage* to obtain advanced capabilities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will focus on those excerpts.
What is the remarkable substance from this article, basically the "cream" of this writing, is its heavy accusation on China stealing the Engine technologies from the West.

WHAT are these institution/organization? Funding? Owner, controller? … WHY did their words carry some weight!?

- Institute for National Strategic Studies
- Forecast International

*So, what is the verdict of the litigation case mentioned in Excerpt #2?*

Basically the author fired many heavy accusations on China, but only this one came with the "hard proof" -- so how was the case at the end???

Logically one needs to be very critical, what was, and how did the said legal case develop in the USA.

Does any one have the following up story of this bold, heavy accusation, typical of the many US publications with ease on accusations on other countries, as reflecting the state of that nation, in fabricating the many landmark cases in the history. I will start from the few landmark cases as they are still vivid in my memories, as well as affecting the fate of nations, the livelihoods of many tens of millions of people -- although the worldwide cases involved the US *false flag* operations are indeed very long:

• Saddam Hussein's WMD;
• Muammar Gaddafi genocided Libyan people;
• Bashar al-Assad smashed the Syrian baby in incubators as well as launched chemical warfare against the "Syrian rebels" incl. the report manipulations by the OPCW; or
• the USA invaded Afghanistan to free the people of Afghanistan from "whatever" but after more than a decade what do we witness in Afghanistan??? Better life for the people there?? Improved prosperity under the US occupation? Really?? Or are we witnessing the surge of Opium growing there after the US removed the Taliban rulers??? 

How many more lies and deceptions do we need to convince ourselves of their integrity, trustworthiness and infallibility?



Figaro said:


> An interesting read with a lot of quotes from our very own @Deino from last year
> Analysis
> *ANALYSIS: The secret world of Chinese fighter engines*
> By Greg Waldron
> 16 July 2019
> 
> “A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,” is how Winston Churchill famously described Russia in 1939. The adage applies well, perhaps better, to Beijing’s secretive efforts to develop military engines for its future fleet of advanced fighters. While there can be no dispute that engines of all types are a major priority for Beijing, concrete news on progress is painfully hard to come by.
> 
> Engine capability and reliability are – and always have been – perhaps the single most important technical element in the success or failure of a combat aircraft. Advanced radars, missiles, an ability to network with other platforms, and low-observable technology count for little if a pilot cannot, owing to a lack of a capable engine, bring these capabilities to bear in combat. More broadly, shorter times between an engine’s major overhauls have a profound impact on the flight hours available for pilots to hone skills.
> 
> It has become somewhat of a cliché in defence circles that China struggles with engines. In chat rooms about the topic – where concrete evidence can be thin at best – commentators who propagate this contention are regularly set upon by those who argue, also without evidence, that China is making tremendous strides. In its annual report about Chinese military developments in May 2019, the US Department of Defence stated that China continues to struggle in two areas – radars and engines. It gave no indication about how it arrived at this view.
> 
> The need for better fighter engines, however, is abundantly clear. In recent years much has been made of the Chengdu J-20, touted as China’s first “fifth generation” fighter. Four examples appeared in the flying display at Airshow China in November 2018, greeted with rapture by air show crowds. The type is often compared to the Lockheed Martin F-22 or F-35, both of which have been mass produced and which feature mature engines.
> 
> What is consistently downplayed is that most of the small number of J-20s produced are probably powered by a Russian power plant, an upgraded version of the Saturn AL-31 that powers the Sukhoi Su-35. The status of the type’s ultimate engine, the developmental Xian Aero Engine WS-15 Emei, is far from clear. Estimates suggest that the WS-15’s maximum thrust will be 18.4t (180kN), potentially giving the J-20 genuine “fifth generation” performance, including supercruise – the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without engaging the afterburner. The lack of positive news – or any news whatsoever – could be interpreted as an admission by Beijing that it is still struggling with this engine. Complicating things is that occasionally Chinese aircraft experts take to state media to claim things are going well.
> 
> As the future powerplant of Beijing’s flagship fighter, the WS-15 is the centrepiece of a family of engines, developed by a universe of companies grouped under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC). The family includes the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang that powers Beijing’s fleet of J-11Bs (early versions of the J-11, a local copy of the Su-27, are powered by a version of the AL-31). The WS-10 will also eventually power the J-15 naval fighter, some examples of the J-20 and future J-10Cs. In addition, there is the WS-13 that will, hopefully, one day power locally produced UCAVs such as the AVIC Dark Sword, and the WS-19 that could one day power the FC-31. The WS-13 is also seen as potential interim powerplant for the developmental AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon, now powered by a pair of Klimov RD-93s.
> 
> Andreas Rupprecht is the author of _Modern Chinese Warplanes_, an authoritative guide to mainland air power, and a keen observer of Chinese military engine developments. He notes that stricter Internet security rules in China mean that far less news about Chinese engines leaks out. This leaves observers with a narrow, sanitised window provided by state media.
> 
> Rupprecht believes that while Beijing is definitely behind the West in engine technology, the industry has made great strides in recent years owing to large investment flows. He points to the relative success of the WS-10 Taihang family, which powers the majority of the Chinese Sukhoi Su-27-derived fleet, namely the J-11B and J-16. From a testing perspective, the engine has also been found on several J-10Bs and J-20As. He views the powerplant as emblematic of China’s aerospace sector.
> 
> “AVIC has invested a lot and initiated tremendous effort to improve quality control throughout the engine’s production chain since 2011,” he says. “To claim the WS-10 engine today is still unreliable is, in my view, unjustified, maybe even ridiculous. The number of operational Taihangs alone says a lot and one must consider that for years no Chinese-built [Su-27 derivative], with the exception of the J-15s, uses a Russian engine anymore.”
> 
> Some sense of Beijing’s confidence in the programme came at Zhuhai in 2018, where a surprise flying display was put on by a WS-10-powered J-10B equipped with thrust vectoring control (TVC) engine. TVC added a whole new dimension to the aircraft’s manoeuvrability. The short display was reminiscent of flying displays performed by other fighters with TVC, such as the Su-35 and F-22. Trailing pink smoke, the J-10B TVC’s routine included tight vertical loops, a slow high angle of attack roll, a cobra manoeuvre and the falling leaf. It was an iconic moment in the history of indigenous Chinese fighter engines.
> 
> Rupprecht’s view on the secrecy shrouding Chinese engine development in recent years is shared by Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International. “The Chinese government isn't transparent, and as far as I can tell, the regional media outlets don't know much more than anyone else,” he says.
> 
> He adds, however, that it is of paramount importance for Beijing to master not just engine technology, but the means of production.
> 
> “As long as they have to depend on Russian or stolen American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” he says. “So if they are to become the military equals of outside forces, they have to be able to create engines. And engines are the real limiting factor in indigenous fighter development. There are only a few companies worldwide who have the ability to design and build an all-new, state-of-the-art engine.”
> 
> Several fighter programmes illustrate the theme of indigenous fighters with foreign engines. The Saab Gripen, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) T-50, Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, are all powered by a General Electric engine. KAI’s planned KFX will also be powered by the F414, as will New Delhi’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
> 
> Beijing is pouring great resources into its own development work, but is not above stealing technology. It is understood that the core of the WS-10 is based on CFM International CFM56 technology that China obtained in the 1980s. In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".
> 
> The requirement for Beijing to steal technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.
> 
> Observers will also be watching Chinese firm Skyrizon’s effort to buy a majority stake in Ukrainian engine manufacturer Motor Sich, which produces turbofans and turboshafts. The potential deal is reportedly under review by the Ukrainian government, and is opposed by Washington DC. In May, the Washington Post reported that the company, which formerly relied on Russian aerospace work, sees few opportunities for its future outside of China.
> 
> Rupprecht adds that Beijing’s ultimate goal is to be completely “self-reliant in every aspect” of engine development and manufacturing.
> 
> “A good number of J-10s and J-11As, as well as their Xian Y-20s and H-6Ks, depend on Russian engines,” he says. “This is unacceptable for the longer term, especially if the political climate with Moscow were to change. Therefore they are placing great effort to develop new engines in different classes and establish a broad industrial base.”
> 
> *Tokyo, New Delhi power up*
> 
> The Asia-Pacific region's other great powers, Japan and India, also see the importance of advanced engine capabilities.
> 
> Tokyo was developing jet engines as long ago as the Second World War. A locally developed high-bypass-ratio turbofan, the IHI F7, powers the Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft.
> 
> In June 2018, IHI delivered the experimental XF9-1 engine, which can produce 33,000lb-thrust (147kN) with afterburner, for laboratory research work. If Tokyo decides to advance its Future Fighter programme to replace the Mitsubishi F-2, the new twin-engined stealth fighter could be powered by descendants of the XF9-1.
> 
> Another Japanese engine, the IHI XF5-1, powered Tokyo's X-2 technology demonstrator.
> 
> New Delhi's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) developed the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas fighter.
> 
> The Kaveri programme suffered numerous cost and technical issues, and was never installed on a Tejas, which instead uses the GE Aviation F404.
> 
> The Kaveri programme was abandoned for a period, but received a second chance in 2016 as the possible powerplant for New Delhi's planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Under offset agreements related to India's acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, France's Snecma is helping to revive the programme.
> 
> Still, great uncertainty remains over Indian jet engine technology. A recent media report quoted T Mohan Rao, a former head of GTRE, as saying the nation's efforts in propulsion will fall behind, owing to bureaucratic indifference and a lack of funding. Moreover, the Indian Air Force is understood to be highly dubious about the Kaveri.
> 
> _Source: FlightGlobal.com_

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## Figaro

The basic parameters of the WS-15, back in 2004. The chief designer of the WS-15 verification machine was 624's Jiang Hefu (江和甫).

The most important takeaway is that the maximum afterburner thrust of the WS-15 was set at 175 kN while the maximum dry thrust was set at 110 kN. Note the WS-15's core is YWH-30-27. The large bypass ratio engine derived from this core can achieve 200 kN of thrust. Also, note this paper was published in 2004 and it was said that the specifications were revised up after entering testing, so the final specs may look different. But it still gives a baseline of the WS-15s performance and what we should expect.

On the second graph, the Y-axis is the thrust in deca-newtons (daN) and the X-axis shows the bypass ratio. Block I represents the WS-15, indicating a thrust of around 170 to 180 kN.








Full paper : https://wenku.baidu.com/view/24bae11eb7360b4c2e3f6455.html

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## LKJ86

WS-10




Via CCTV 9

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> WS-10
> View attachment 649780
> 
> Via CCTV 9


We need a beautiful picture like that of the WS-15 ... we've been seeing the Taihang for ages now at this point.


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> We need a beautiful picture like that of the WS-15 ... we've been seeing the Taihang for ages now at this point.


How long does it need from the maiden flight of WS-10 engine to showing such a beautiful picture?


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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> How long does it need from the maiden flight of WS-10 engine to showing such a beautiful picture?


WS10 IIRC was flight tested in a J-11 back in 2001 and there were really good pictures of it a couple years later. So far, we just have one picture of the WS-15 verification machine, dating back to 2009 (probably earlier than that). I heard it already entered flight testing last year on a J-11 but there aren't any pictures yet  ... hopefully we can get one soon. Once we get that picture, we will see the full engine shortly.


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## Figaro

From last year 
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2587160-1-1.html


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## aliaselin

Figaro said:


> From last year
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2587160-1-1.html
> View attachment 649825


The most interesting one is the "XXCC" engine
XXCC means TBCC or RBCC


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## CAPRICORN-88

aliaselin said:


> The most interesting one is the "XXCC" engine
> XXCC means TBCC or RBCC


Those are the engines for 6th generation fighters.


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## Deino

Can anyone clarify?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281852213569167361


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## laser911

Deino said:


> Can anyone clarify?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281852213569167361


It is true that one of the plants was on fire. But I didnt ask the details, it seems the fire was put out quickly.


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## Deino

laser911 said:


> It is true that one of the plants was on fire. But I didnt ask the details, it seems the fire was put out quickly.




Via the SDF:



siegecrossbow said:


> Second fire was in the same industrial park as the engine plant but not in the engine plant itself. One of the guys from CJDBY asked his relative from the engine plant.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Via the SDF:


What engines do they manufacture at AECC Chengdu again? AFAIK, the WS-10 is manufactured between Liming and XAEC. Maybe small to medium thrust turbofans?


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> What engines do they manufacture at AECC Chengdu again? AFAIK, the WS-10 is manufactured between Liming and XAEC. Maybe small to medium thrust turbofans?




The WS-18


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## Figaro

Apparently a 16 tonne thrust Taihang is under development 
http://www.is0817.com/article-24395-1.html

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## Figaro

Taihang on full afterburner ... nice

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## wulff

Figaro said:


> Apparently a 16 tonne thrust Taihang is under development
> http://www.is0817.com/article-24395-1.html



How credible is this article?


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## Figaro

wulff said:


> How credible is this article?


Not sure. A 16 tonne after-burning WS-10 would be really stretching the limits of the CFM-56 core IMO. But given the Chinese advances in gas turbine development it is certainly doable. The only question is whether there is a need for a 16 tonne WS-10 given the advent of a 18 tonne WS-15 in the near future. As far as I can tell, the 14.5 tonne WS-10IPE with TVC that is powering the next batch of J-20s should be enough of a stop gap until the WS-15 arrives. No need to further develop the WS-10 into 16 tonnes.

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## PeacefulWar

Figaro said:


> Not sure. A 16 tonne after-burning WS-10 would be really stretching the limits of the CFM-56 core IMO. But given the Chinese advances in gas turbine development it is certainly doable. The only question is whether there is a need for a 16 tonne WS-10 given the advent of a 18 tonne WS-15 in the near future. As far as I can tell, the 14.5 tonne WS-10IPE with TVC that is powering the next batch of J-20s should be enough of a stop gap until the WS-15 arrives. No need to further develop the WS-10 into 16 tonnes.


LAMO, if this trend continues we probably will see a more powerful WS10 than WS15's design spec before WS15 come out...


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## Figaro

From a very old academic article dating back to 2007 basically showing a 16 tonne WS-10 is definitely feasible for the core. The thrust is listed at 155 kN here.

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## Aasimkhan

samsara said:


> Excerpt #1:
> 
> “As long as they have to depend on Russian or *STOLEN American/European technology* to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” *Douglas Royce*, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at *Forecast International* says.
> 
> 
> Excerpt #2:
> 
> *In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation*. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".
> 
> Excerpt #3:
> 
> *The REQUIREMENT for Beijing to STEAL technology* was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based *Institute for National Strategic Studies* entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China *would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies,* and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China *to rely increasingly on espionage* to obtain advanced capabilities.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> I will focus on those excerpts.
> What is the remarkable substance from this article, basically the "cream" of this writing, is its heavy accusation on China stealing the Engine technologies from the West.
> 
> WHAT are these institution/organization? Funding? Owner, controller? … WHY did their words carry some weight!?
> 
> - Institute for National Strategic Studies
> - Forecast International
> 
> *So, what is the verdict of the litigation case mentioned in Excerpt #2?*
> 
> Basically the author fired many heavy accusations on China, but only this one came with the "hard proof" -- so how was the case at the end???
> 
> Logically one needs to be very critical, what was, and how did the said legal case develop in the USA.
> 
> Does any one have the following up story of this bold, heavy accusation, typical of the many US publications with ease on accusations on other countries, as reflecting the state of that nation, in fabricating the many landmark cases in the history. I will start from the few landmark cases as they are still vivid in my memories, as well as affecting the fate of nations, the livelihoods of many tens of millions of people -- although the worldwide cases involved the US *false flag* operations are indeed very long:
> 
> • Saddam Hussein's WMD;
> • Muammar Gaddafi genocided Libyan people;
> • Bashar al-Assad smashed the Syrian baby in incubators as well as launched chemical warfare against the "Syrian rebels" incl. the report manipulations by the OPCW; or
> • the USA invaded Afghanistan to free the people of Afghanistan from "whatever" but after more than a decade what do we witness in Afghanistan??? Better life for the people there?? Improved prosperity under the US occupation? Really?? Or are we witnessing the surge of Opium growing there after the US removed the Taliban rulers???
> 
> How many more lies and deceptions do we need to convince ourselves of their integrity, trustworthiness and infallibility?


All West is typical hypocritical liars. All USA technology is stolen from Germany including jet engine, rocket science, nuclear bomb etc etc. America is the biggest liar in the history of mankind.

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## aliaselin

CJ1000A progress
CJ-1000A初始批整机（03台份）遥测系统硬件加工及天线制作调试国际招标公告

Also we now know that WS-16 and WS-21 are UAV engine.

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## Figaro

Cross post from SDF that came out at the beginning of the year. The translation is below, provided by our lcloo and the image is provided by Just4Fun. Note this is an official report.






_Whether it is WS-15 or WS-10, we cannot be 100% sure, thus each individual can has his own interpretation. The key words are 完全自主创新。。。成功研制和配装。。。现代工业皇冠上的明珠。

完全自主创新 = Completely self developed and with new innovation. This means the new engine is not based on a foreign ones.

成功研制和配装 = successfully developed and equiped. The word "equiped" meant some aircraft in service is already fitted with this new engine.

现代工业皇冠上的明珠 = Pearl on top of modern Industry Crown. This indicate the engine is top of the line in technological spec.

I won't speculate whether it is WS-15 or WS-10, but it is a very important advance engine that is for sure._

To me, only the WS-15 fits all three categories.

The WS-15 is a completely self developed clean sheet design and incorporates new innovations. OTOH, the WS-10 is based on a foreign CFM-56 engine core.
This is the most interesting point. The WS-15 was reported to have entered flight tests back in early 2019 so it satisfies the "successfully developed and equipped" part. The most likely candidate for such flight testing would be a modified J-11.
It would definitely make sense to call the WS-15 the "Pearl on top of modern Industry Crown" as it is the most advanced Chinese turbofan engine. I really don't see the WS-10 being the top of the line for Chinese aeroengine technology, so this designation being applied to it does not make sense.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> A *very *important post about Chinese military turbofans via jobjed from SDF:
> 
> Here are some background on the WS-10 and monocrystal turbine blade fabrication in China, as well as WS-15 updates and predictions.
> 
> 
> *About the WS-10*, sources: here, here, here, here (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7):
> 
> Its OPR is overly ambitious for a country starting off weak in material science, at around 32 whereas the AL-31's is around 24. A higher OPR means the turbine-inlet temperature and the stresses on the compressor stages are higher, putting greater demand on material quality. The OPR was that high because WS-10's core came from the CFM56, the same core as the F101 developed by GE which had a high OPR. Now GE didn't mind a higher OPR because they had the material science to back up their ambitions but the same could not be said for 606. The F110 uses monocrystal blades whereas the WS-10 uses directionally-solidified blades which are hugely inferior to moncrystals and don't last nearly as long meaning WS-10s today have a lifespan of ~1500 hours while F110s go upwards of 5000 hours. This resulted from China not having monocrystal turbine blade fabrication capability when WS-10 was under development. Additionally, 606 had to strengthen the WS-10's compressor stages to counter the stresses of a high OPR, making the WS-10 significantly heavier than the AL-31, some 250kg heavier according to gongke.
> Another effect of the high turbine-inlet temp is the incorporation of large cooling channels in the WS-10's turbine blades. These channels bring up cool air to cushion the blades from the hot air of the combustion chamber but every litre of air used for cooling is a litre of air not optimally used to produce thrust. Therefore, most engine manufacturers try to minimise the amount of air passed through these channels to maximise efficiency. 606, on the other hand, had to enlarge these cooling channels to compensate for their directionally-solidified blades' inferior heat resistance. This means a relatively high portion of the WS-10's airflow is used for cooling and isn't optimally combusted.
> 
> In the 1980s, 606 couldn't design components of an advanced engine independently so they copied the core of an American engine but adopted Russian design standards for the low-pressure compressor stage and afterburn section. This seems fine on the surface until you realise the Americans spin counterclockwise and the Russians spin clockwise. Why does this matter? In 4th-gen engines, the low-pressure compressor shaft is contained concentrically within the high-pressure compressor shaft meaning you'd want to minimise the relative velocity of the two shaft surfaces to reduce friction. In an engine where both the LP and HP shafts are spinning in one direction, the relative RPM between the two shafts would be something like 5000. For the WS-10, where the LP and HP shafts spin in opposite directions, the relative RPM is more like 20,000. For comparison, the F110's LP section has max RPM of 8500 and its HP section, ~15000, giving a relative RPM of 6500. If this was replicated on the WS-10, the relative RPM would be a ridiculous 23,500. This means the WS-10's compressors don't have as much margin to increase its RPM. As engine RPM increases, the bypass ratio decreases, _see Figure 1_. Unfortunately for the WS-10, it can't spin its engines above the RPM corresponding to a bypass ratio of 0.84 because its LP and HP shafts spin in opposite directions and a higher RPM would destroy the shafts, destroying the engine/aircraft. This means a minimum bypass ratio of 0.84, the highest of its contemporaries, is what the WS-10 has to work with. This isn't ideal because high-altitude cruising is most efficient with a bypass ratio as close to 0 as possible.
> 606 attempted to design the WS-10 to a modular architecture to facilitate rapid disassembly which is beneficial for maintenance, especially in the field and not the depot. This is also how GE designed the F101 and its derivatives. However, 606 didn't get everything right and the WS-10 ended up being only half-modular. This means while depot maintenance was simplified, field maintenance remains a hassle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Figure 1: WS-10 Bypass Ratio vs RPM, x-axis 1.00 = 100% RPM_
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Monocrystal turbine blade situation in China*, sources: here, here, here, here.
> 
> As stated above, active service WS-10 do not use monocrystals. A few examples were built using monocrystals manufactured by 170 Factory but test results were disappointing and nothing came of it. The WS-10IPE is an attempt to use better materials including new monocrystals to squeeze more performance out of the WS-10 but the improvements are not significant enough to convince the PLA to invest more into the project.
> Chinese turboshaft technology is the least behind of all aeroengine areas. In fact, turboshafts are most prominent users of monocrystal blades in China at the moment. The WZ-9 uses monocrystal turbine blades manufactured by the 331 Factory, or AECC South Industry Company Ltd. Their blades are pretty good quality and their yield factor is decent. However, the small physical size of their products limit their use to turboshafts.
> Guizhou 170 Factory, now acquired by 621 Institute, achieves a monocrystal-growing batch yield factor of around 70% and is 606th's monocrystal supplier. For comparison, Western engine manufacturers typically achieve 95% yields.
> The Chinese Academy of Sciences' Institute of Metal Research also manufactures monocrystal turbine blades with a yield factor of around 70%.
> A private company, the Hangyu Superalloy Technology Company Ltd (航宇超合金技术有限公司) achieves the highest yield factors in China (~90%), comparable to Western manufacturers. However, their catalogue range is smaller than 170 and Institute of Metal Research's so their products aren't as widely used.
> 170 Factory's catalogue includes the latest 3rd-generation monocrystal blades such as DD32. The WS-15 does not use the DD32 because its design predates the arrival of the 3rd-gen blades. However, it definitely uses monocrystals of some kind, probably 2nd-gens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now, updates about the WS-15:*
> 
> Half a year ago, Dr Liu Daxiang predicted the WS-15 will achieve design certification within 3 - 5 years. Gongke also said an engine can achieve design certification 3 - 5 years after first flight if testing goes well. This means the WS-15, if it wants to achieve design certification within 5 years as predicted, should be flying within 2.
> An experienced Chinese aeroengine enthusiast wrote an article analysing the billboard of accolades (see Figure 2) that got posted last month. The statement about Batch 3 of prototype WS-15s is the main attraction. Looking back at the WS-10 program for hints, its Batch 1 and 2 prototypes were exclusively for ground tests, beginning delivery in 1995 while Batch 3, consisting of seven prototypes, was delivered from 2000 - 2001. In June 2001, a J-11 with its starboard AL-31F replaced by a WS-10 took off, marking the first flight of the WS-10. Flight verification of the WS-10 was subsequently conducted using Batch 3 and Batch 3S engines. Beginning in March 2004, the WS-10 began its design certification process, eventually being granted design certification in October 2005. In other words, a few months after WS-10 Batch 3 was delivered, the WS-10 had its first flight and after little more than four years, it got design certification. And now we know the WS-15 Batch 3 has or will soon be completed and delivered. However, we must remember that the testing of the WS-15 is far more rigorous and comprehensive than the WS-10's so the visible progress may be slower as 606 takes their time doing things right this time.
> In March 2018, someone asked gongke if the WS-15 was at a stage where 606 could just cram it in an airframe and make it fly for ten minutes. Gongke replied it definitely could. From this we know the WS-15 was already in flyable state almost a year ago, and probably considerably sooner than that taking into account the travel delay of news from 606 to Liyang.
> The conclusion I get from this is we should expect a first flight of the WS-15 aboard the Il-76LL testbed within two years, quite possibly occurring this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Figure 2: Billboard of achievements by young aeroengine designers_


I know this is an old post but I believe there is something important to note here. The WS-15 never had to do high altitude testing aboard a IL-76 as the WS-10 had to because the Chinese already have an in door high altitude simulated testbed. If I'm not mistaken, it is called the No.2 high altitude testing facility and is located in Mianyang, Sichuan. It can simulate high altitude tests for engines with an airflow of upwards of 150 kg/s, or 200 kN thrust. This is likely why pictures of the WS-15 are so hard to come by (along with the sensitivity surrounding the project in general).

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## Figaro

The J-11 documentary @42:32 implies that two WS-10s have close to 30 tons of thrust, meaning one WS-10 has roughly 15 tons of thrust. I assume he is talking about the latest variant of the WS-10 at the time of the interview.

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## Dungeness

Figaro said:


> The J-11 documentary @42:32 implies that two WS-10s have close to 30 tons of thrust, meaning one WS-10 has roughly 15 tons of thrust. I assume he is talking about the latest variant of the WS-10 at the time of the interview.
> View attachment 657816



The "30t force" it mentioned wasn't about the engine thurst, but the destructive power
a fractured engine blade could cause to plane's airframe.

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## Han Patriot

Dungeness said:


> The "30t force" it mentioned wasn't about the engine thurst, but the destructive power
> a fractured engine blade could cause to plane's airframe.


I didn't watch this episode cause its about J11, but interesting they acknowledge the mass production of WS10 engine and notice they mentioned the word able to satisfy air force requirements. I guess no more Al31 imports anymore.

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## Han Patriot

Figaro said:


> The J-11 documentary @42:32 implies that two WS-10s have close to 30 tons of thrust, meaning one WS-10 has roughly 15 tons of thrust. I assume he is talking about the latest variant of the WS-10 at the time of the interview.
> View attachment 657816


30t is the force exerted when the blade is broken.


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## Figaro

Han Patriot said:


> I didn't watch this episode cause its about J11, but interesting they acknowledge the mass production of WS10 engine and notice they mentioned the word able to satisfy air force requirements. I guess no more Al31 imports anymore.


There has not been any imports of the AL-31Fs in many years (the last one probably dating back to the early 2010s). The Taihang now powers all combat fighters (J-11s, J-15B, J-10C, J-20, J-16).

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## Figaro

According to Shi Lao, the WS-15 has undergone long term flight testing (not IL-76 testbed) and is getting closer and closer to mass production.

https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=314576&v=1596916234507

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> According to Shi Lao


Who?


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## CIA Mole

is WS 10 comparable to F414?


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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Who?


A very reputable poster similar to yankeesama.


CIA Mole said:


> is WS 10 comparable to F414?


Better comparison is with F-110 GE-132.


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## CIA Mole

Figaro said:


> A very reputable poster similar to yankeesama.
> 
> Better comparison is with F-110 GE-132.



Ws-15 is more like F119 or F135?


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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> Ws-15 is more like F119 or F135?


Probably somewhere in between ... the F-119 while a very advanced engine, is almost 30 years old at this point.


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## vi-va

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Who?


施佬 a Taiwan Chinese in mainland.


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## Figaro

Via Vincent over on CDF 

According to 宋心之 (at 29:00), WS-15 has maximum thrust of 18 tonnes and thrust-to-weight ratio of 10

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Via Vincent over on CDF
> 
> According to 宋心之 (at 29:00), WS-15 has maximum thrust of 18 tonnes and thrust-to-weight ratio of 10




But how credible could a Youtube-video be with such fan art?


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> But how credible could a Youtube-video be with such fan art?


The fan art is just the thumbnail ... the actual video is a half hour long interview with PLAAF expert 宋心之


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## Figaro

Pupu says he personally believes the thrust of the WS-10C has reached that of the 117S/AL-41F1S, which is around 14.5 tonnes or over 142 kN.

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## sinait

Deino said:


> But how credible could a Youtube-video be with such fan art?


Seems like a pragmatic guy and clarifies he had no inside information before giving his views.
He says the WS-15 is designed for 18 tons and he is optimistic that given more time and patience the "Hangfa group 航发集团" will succeed with WS-15.
.

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## S10

WS-19 is confirmed to have 10 tons of thrust and has a thrust to weight ratio of 10:1. It will also be put in production in record time.

https://m.toutiaoimg.cn/group/68614...stamp=1597556549&group_id=6861429326106067469

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## Figaro

Cross post from SDF.










表格中只要看最下面一行就行了，H代表高度0，M代表速度0，Ga表示进气流量，状态代表100%的转速，T1代表加力温度。上面那篇论文的时间是2011年，作者是燃气涡轮院的，当时WS15正处于验证机研制的阶段，因此相应的数据也就是在处于研制阶段的WS15验证机在高空台上的试验点。验证机阶段国内是按照原型机96%的指标来研制，也就是说在验证机阶段只需要达到原型机96%的性能指标就行了，因此也就是说原型机的推力一般比验证机达到的推力大5%。按照表格上130Kg/S流量的数据，WS15原型机的流量约为137Kg/S流量的级别，按照四代机单位流量推力为125到130Kgf/KgS的水平，*那么推算出WS15的推力范围为17吨到18吨附近*，比产品30稍大，两者的推力差别大概为1到2吨，*军推推力为11吨到12吨之间*。

A very astute observer says the WS-15 has an wet thrust from 17 to 18 tonnes, and a dry thrust from 11 to 12 tonnes, based on a 2011 academic journal published by the 624 Institute allegedly showing the test results of the WS-15 undergoing high altitude core testing.

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2424995-1-1.html

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## serenity

Thrust was no longer a problem since years ago. They were never happy with range from high fuel consumption. The hardest problem is create efficiency comparing with Al-31 or WS-10 fuel consumption rating so range can be improved otherwise they keep rejecting. For thrust WS-10 and FN series Al-31 is enough to have good enough performance for J-20, not worse than J-10's or J-16's. Higher power output is of course much better but more important to preserve the range since stealth fighter cannot carry extra fuel for real missions and cannot rely on air refuel because H-6 and future air refuel still big easy targets. This is all from public information in Chinese.

Again WS-10 give J-20 good performance. Much better than most fighter jets in the world already. Only things above 1.01 power to weight is definitely superior but J-20 also has advantage of deceptive low weight due to new construction methods, high lift coefficient, low air resistance. Even 0.99 power to weight is already better than most fighter jets and consider to add those other three advantages, low weight, high lift, low drag, makes performance closer to >1. Most fighter power to weight is <1.

Still so many years after J-20 reaching service people outside China still believe J-20 suffers from low power. It flies already much better than J-16 and J-10, maybe does not have super maneuver like Su-35 because no thrust vectoring yet but more important performance is superior to J-10 and superior to J-16. Neither those can supercruise and supersonic turning is weak for J-16 and other Russian Su-27 based fighters. J-10 has good supersonic turning but not as strong as J-20 or as fast.

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## zhxy

I think China needs a similar engine to the NK-12 and NK-32. Was it too difficult trying to develop a cold war engine?

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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> I think China needs a similar engine to the NK-12 and NK-32. Was it too difficult trying to develop a cold war engine?


Please tell me why the Chinese need to develop these Soviet Cold War era engines?


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## zhxy

Figaro said:


> Please tell me why the Chinese need to develop these Soviet Cold War era engines?



The question should change to:

"Why hasn't China been able to develop a similar engine?"
"Is it really China that doesn't need such an engine?"

https://www.sohu.com/a/394178686_120394345
https://www.sohu.com/a/395552979_536880

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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> The question should change to:
> 
> "Why hasn't China been able to develop a similar engine?"
> "Is it really China that doesn't need such an engine?"
> 
> https://www.sohu.com/a/394178686_120394345
> https://www.sohu.com/a/395552979_536880


Please point out where China cannot develop an engine equivalent to the NK-32? Specs wise, the WS-10 is far ahead of the NK-32. Just because it has 245 kN of thrust does not mean it is an advanced engine at all. If you really wanted to do 200 kN, you could just make a massive engine, which is exactly what the NK-32 is. A T4 temperature of around 1600K and TWR of 7 are not impressive figures at all these days (i.e. 1980s specs). There is no evidence China is developing a supersonic bomber similar to the Tu-160 so such a massive after burning engine is not required.


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## zhxy

Figaro said:


> Please point out where China cannot develop an engine equivalent to the NK-32? Specs wise, the WS-10 is far ahead of the NK-32. Just because it has 245 kN of thrust does not mean it is an advanced engine at all. If you really wanted to do 200 kN, you could just make a massive engine, which is exactly what the NK-32 is. A T4 temperature of around 1600K and TWR of 7 are not impressive figures at all these days (i.e. 1980s specs). There is no evidence China is developing a supersonic bomber similar to the Tu-160 so such a massive after burning engine is not required.


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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> View attachment 662848


Just because China has not developed a engine in the NK32 class does not mean it does not have the technical abilities to do so. I have already told you that the WS-10 has much better specs than that of the NK32. The Chinese would have no problem designing a TWR 7, T4 1600K, 7 stage HP compressor large thrust turbofan.


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## m52k85

When was the last order China put in for Russian engines of the Al-31 family, anyone know? Which types were ordered?


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## Figaro

m52k85 said:


> When was the last order China put in for Russian engines of the Al-31 family, anyone know? Which types were ordered?


There has been none for a couple years now (maybe spares but I haven't heard any either).


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## m52k85

Figaro said:


> There has been none for a couple years now (maybe spares but I haven't heard any either).


Thanks. Any reason why the WS-10 hasn't made to production version of J-10 while it has in J-11?


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## LKJ86

m52k85 said:


> Any reason why the WS-10 hasn't made to production version of J-10 while it has in J-11?


You don't know China has made the production version of J-10C with WS-10?


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## m52k85

LKJ86 said:


> You don't know China has made the production version of J-10C with WS-10?


No sorry, when was that? I believe the J-11s have come with WS-10 since 2011?

@ChineseTiger1986 @cirr @帅的一匹


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## LKJ86

m52k85 said:


> No sorry, when was that? I believe the J-11s have come with WS-10 since 2011?
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986 @cirr @帅的一匹







__





Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions






defence.pk








__





Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions


Finally... J-10C equipped with WS-10 Via https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5Jr7e-vzQd6FJP_reufeVA



defence.pk

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## vi-va

serenity said:


> Thrust was no longer a problem since years ago. They were never happy with range from high fuel consumption. The hardest problem is create efficiency comparing with Al-31 or WS-10 fuel consumption rating so range can be improved otherwise they keep rejecting. For thrust WS-10 and FN series Al-31 is enough to have good enough performance for J-20, not worse than J-10's or J-16's. Higher power output is of course much better but more important to preserve the range since stealth fighter cannot carry extra fuel for real missions and cannot rely on air refuel because H-6 and future air refuel still big easy targets. This is all from public information in Chinese.
> 
> Again WS-10 give J-20 good performance. Much better than most fighter jets in the world already. Only things above 1.01 power to weight is definitely superior but J-20 also has advantage of deceptive low weight due to new construction methods, high lift coefficient, low air resistance. Even 0.99 power to weight is already better than most fighter jets and consider to add those other three advantages, low weight, high lift, low drag, makes performance closer to >1. Most fighter power to weight is <1.
> 
> Still so many years after J-20 reaching service people outside China still believe J-20 suffers from low power. It flies already much better than J-16 and J-10, maybe does not have super maneuver like Su-35 because no thrust vectoring yet but more important performance is superior to J-10 and superior to J-16. Neither those can supercruise and supersonic turning is weak for J-16 and other Russian Su-27 based fighters. J-10 has good supersonic turning but not as strong as J-20 or as fast.


Su-35 super maneuver is mostly in subsonic. How much those super maneuver helps in BVR mode? I think not too much.
Per interview with J-20 pilot, J-20 maneuver is very good in subsonic speed, but dominate in supersonic speed. Which means J-20 maneuverability is optimized in supersonic speed.

I think this is one of the big difference between J-20 and Su-35.

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## Figaro

vi-va said:


> Su-35 super maneuver is mostly in subsonic. How much those super maneuver helps in BVR mode? I think not too much.
> Per interview with J-20 pilot, J-20 maneuver is very good in subsonic speed, but dominate in supersonic speed. Which means J-20 maneuverability is optimized in supersonic speed.
> 
> I think this is one of the big difference between J-20 and Su-35.


A lot of the Su-35's super-maneuverability is derived from its TVC flight control ... this feature will be adopted by the J-20, so clearly the PLAAF still thinks supermaneuverability within subsonic and transonic regimes is extremely important. Otherwise, 606 would not dedicate so much developmental effort into perfecting 3D TVC (not to mention the thrust decrease, added weight, and maintenance difficulties). The famous J-20 paper by Dr. Song stated subsonic super-maneuverability was a key goal.

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## samsara

_Here's a story about *Sun Hongmei* 孙红梅 -- the chief expert in the welding of aviation repair systems, she has been on the front line of aviation engine repair for 20 years._

_*Sun Hongmei boarded the CCTV column | Watch her perform operations on the airplane’s ”heart” (2020-08-23)*_







At 21:19 in the evening of August 21st, *Sun Hongmei, a senior engineer of the 5713th Factory of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army*, boarded the CCTV's _”National Defense Science and Industry”_ column of the military channel tells us the story of her operating on the ”heart” of the plane.

*Sun Hongmei is the Chinese Air Force's chief expert in the welding of aviation repair systems. She has been on the front line of aviation engine repair for 20 years.* Repaired more than 600 aero engines, developed more than ten core technologies, overcame more than a hundred bottlenecks, obtained four patents, and won the first, second, and third prizes of military scientific and technological progress.

China Central Radio and Television’s military channel (CCTV-7) ”National Defense Science and Industry” column broadcasts Sun Hongmei’s advanced deeds.

She was named the first ”Gold Medal Blue Sky Craftsman”, ”Chinese Good Man” and ”National Five” by the Air Force Equipment Department. ”A Woman Model”, ”Jingchu Model”, and so forth. She has won the ”National May 1st Labor Medal” and ”Great Country Craftsman Person of the Year in 2019”.

She established the _”Hongmei Studio”_ and led the team to continuously explore new technologies and pass the ”craftsman spirit” to more people.


_Here is the related CCTV-7 footage, segment about Sun Hongmei starts at 19:51 (no English subtitles)_

天降神兵！探秘绽放蓝天的先进装备 直击空降兵跳伞全过程 「国防科工」20200821 | 军迷天下





At this same episode, starts at 09:16, it covers about parachute factory.

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## Figaro

Google Translate :
China’s variable-cycle engine has carried out flight tests: After more than ten years, Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Shenyang Institute of Aviation Industry, Northwestern Polytechnical University jointly completed the "Research and Application of Key Technologies for Multidisciplinary Simulation of Advanced Combat Aircraft Propulsion Systems".

The project was patented 16 Among them, 14 invention patents, 2 software copyrights, 2 monographs, 13 SCI papers, 12 EI papers, 1 third prize of the 2017 China Machinery Industry Science and Technology Progress Award, and 2 national military standards , The relevant results have been applied in multiple domestic aero engine models, the first carrier-based fighter, the first ground-attack unmanned combat platform, the first domestic modal conversion flight test and other models, and the flight verification has been completed, which can support The research team was appointed as the stability support team for the development of a certain key aero engine model of the country for the demonstration and development of the next generation of multi-purpose advanced fighter jets and high-altitude long-endurance unmanned reconnaissance aircraft. The research results have important military and Social benefits.



https://m.weibo.cn/status/4544433674521555?

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## samsara

Figaro said:


> View attachment 665902
> 
> Google Translate :
> China’s variable-cycle engine has carried out flight tests: After more than ten years, Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Shenyang Institute of Aviation Industry, Northwestern Polytechnical University jointly completed the "Research and Application of Key Technologies for Multidisciplinary Simulation of Advanced Combat Aircraft Propulsion Systems".
> 
> The project was patented 16 Among them, 14 invention patents, 2 software copyrights, 2 monographs, 13 SCI papers, 12 EI papers, 1 third prize of the 2017 China Machinery Industry Science and Technology Progress Award, and 2 national military standards , The relevant results have been applied in multiple domestic aero engine models, the first carrier-based fighter, the first ground-attack unmanned combat platform, the first domestic modal conversion flight test and other models, and the flight verification has been completed, which can support The research team was appointed as the stability support team for the development of a certain key aero engine model of the country for the demonstration and development of the next generation of multi-purpose advanced fighter jets and high-altitude long-endurance unmanned reconnaissance aircraft. The research results have important military and Social benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/status/4544433674521555?


Thanks @Figaro for bringing in the news to our attention at PDF.

Here's another version of translation attempt:

*China's variable-cycle engine (VCE) flight tests have been carried out (2020.09.01):*

Over the past ten years, Nanjing University of Aeronautics & Astronautics (NUAA), Shenyang Aerospace University (SAU) and Northwestern Polytechnical University (NPU) jointly completed the Research and Application of Key Technologies for Multidisciplinary Simulation of Advanced Combat Aircraft Propulsion System.

The project has won 16 patents, including 14 invention patents, 2 software copyrights, 2 monographs, 13 Science Citation Index (SCI) papers and 12 Engineering Information (EI) papers. It has won the Third Prize of China Machinery Industry Scientific and Technological Progress Award in 2017, and participated in the compilation of National Military Standards in two departments.

The relevant achievements have been applied and verified in several domestic aeroengine models, the first carrier-based fighter jets, the first ground attack unmanned combat platform (UCAV), and the first mode transition flight test in China as well as completed and verified the flight tests of the other models, which can support the demonstration and development of new aviation weapons and equipment such as the next generation of multi-purpose advanced fighter, high altitude long endurance (HALE) unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, and so on.

The research team has been appointed as a national key research team of a certain type of aviation engine, which research results have important military and social benefits.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> View attachment 665902






samsara said:


> Thanks @Figaro for bringing in the news to our attention at PDF.
> ...




Hu ... and what about this? From @siegecrossbow at the SDF:

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Hu ... and what about this? From @siegecrossbow at the SDF:
> 
> View attachment 666315



I stand by my statement since none of the patents has anything to do with engines.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> Hu ... and what about this? From @siegecrossbow at the SDF:
> 
> View attachment 666315


The above translation was done based on the Weibo link. If the Weibo guy made a mistake in his post, automatically the translation will be incorrect. The "GIGO" principle.

Since @siegecrossbow already found out that the Weibo guy made mistake in his post, that those patents have nothing to do with engine, then he may be correct. The Weibo post remains intact, no one there posted otherwise, but it is not part of the forum, the engagement is very limited. So I'll appreciate if he may post here at PDF the link(s) or sources that counter the info at the above Weibo link, that's the best clarification.

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## Grandy

.
*J20 prototype no. 2021 with WS15 engine, test flight began in September 2017.*



Spoiler



8月26日的节目中宋心之证实了J20装备了两种发动机
前几天国内军事专家宋心之在其栏目宋心之观察室中证实，J20战斗机装备了两种型号的发动机，前期装备的发动机是WS10B，推力在14-15吨，而且是配备了矢量喷管的。后期装备的是WS15发动机。

J20装备的第二种发动机是WS15.
关于J20的发动机，实际上去年我们就多次讨论过这一话题，J20从试飞开始一直到服役用的发动机就是WS10B。（关于J20发动机走过的历程，文章末尾有我们去年发的多篇文章的链接，文中对WS10B和WS15有更详细的介绍）。这与很多人的想象不同，网上大部分人认为J20早期装备的发动机是俄罗斯的AL31发动机，后来又换上了国产太行发动机。或者一开始用的太行发动机，后来换了WS10B等等。这些观点判断发动机型号的唯一的一个依据就是尾喷口，事实证明这些判断完全不靠普。最终这些观点也都被证实都是错误的。

WS10B也是有矢量推力的.
那么，这篇文章我们就来简单回顾一下J20配套发动机研制的过程。我国计划研制的第一型第五代战斗机J20计划在2011年年初首飞，配套的发动机也是十一级推重比的WS15发动机。我国对于研制推比十一级的发动机实际上很早就有规划的。到2005左右我国推比十一级的高推核心机已经接近研制完成，WS15发动机也于2006年年初正式立项。但是实际上当时高推核心机的高空台试车仍未达标，直到2009年年底高推核心机的高空台试车才完全达标。受这些技术条件的限制，如果按部就班的走完验证机、原型机等两个研制阶段，WS15最终的研制进度赶不上J20在2011年的首飞。

J20作为空军最重要的项目是不可能延误的。所以在当时的官方文件中就提到一个过渡动力装置的名词。这个所谓过渡动力装置就是WS10B发动机，在J20用上WS15之前，就用这个WS10B发动机来做过渡。这个发动机实际上就是将高推核心机再加上太行发动机的风扇以及低压涡轮串装而成的。其实在高推核心机研制阶段就是这样干的。实际上在核心机阶段是不需要配套外涵道的，但是当时的江河浦总师是非常有远见。在高推核心机研制阶段就给高推核心机配套了太行发动机的风扇和低压涡轮，在核心机阶段就把验证机的工作给干了，大大缩短后续发动机的研制周期。

当时在2007年左右国内的官方媒体曾报道过一个加力推力155千牛推重比为9.5的太行改型发动机，这个发动机就是WS10B发动机。

WS10B原计划15.5吨推力.
实际上此时的WS10B指标定的是比较高的，为了降低技术难度加快进度，又调低了技术指标。这样WS10B的中间状态推力就降到10吨以下大概97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。前两年深圳卫视在报道J10C服役的时候提到过WS10B的性能。称中间状态推力超过90千牛，加力推力144千牛。这里说的超过90千牛是很有讲究的，因为说得太清楚会直接暴露WS10B的核心机。那么当时为何不先用太行发动机或者AL31给J20来试飞，而一定要用高推核心机呢？根本原因在于第五代战斗机对发动机中间状态推力的要求比上一代发动机高很多，J20要想实现超音速巡航，中间状态推力也要接近10吨。而太行发动机和AL31发动机的中间状态推力基本上都在7.5吨左右，无论如何是无法实现的，即使改进也完全无法实现。

这是国内某发动机总师的观点.
因为需要提高的幅度相当于从推比8提高到推比10，这是太行或者AL31的核心机完全做不到。即使能够改进最终也会改得面目全非，这样做相当于重新研制一代发动机，既然如此，已经有现成的高推核心机，拿来用就是。所以J20用的过渡动力也是在高推核心机上起步开始做的。
最终WS10B在仅仅完成300小时试飞后就装上了J20的验证机，在2011年1月11日完成了首飞。试飞初期WS10B并未配备矢量喷口，只是到了2016号原型以后才配备了矢量喷口，一直到J20试飞完毕服役，也就是说J20正式服役时用的就是矢量推力版的WS10B。2018年珠海航展上，总设计杨伟在答记者问上也委婉的表示J20已经用上了矢量推力发动机。

在去年发的文章中，我们把J20配套发动机的发展历程总结为三步曲，第一步高推核心机配太行发动机的低压端，中间状态推力97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。这一阶段型号名称为WS10B。第二步恢复技术参数到原设计状态，中间状态推力108千牛，加力推力156千牛，比原计划的155千牛略高，这个指标已经可以追上美国F119发动机，型号为WS15。自2017年9月在2021号原型机上开始试飞。第三步全新研制风扇和低压涡轮，将高推核心机的潜力完全发挥出来，这个就是WS15的完全版，加力推力18吨左右。据宋心之所述，WS15推重比已经达到10.8到10.9的样子，其加力推力耗油率为1.98比F119的2.4好了不少。我们去年的推测大部分已经被宋心之证实，至于第二步目前还没有被完全证实，或许今年的珠海航展上会有新的消息。



Google translation :

In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines.
A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.

*The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.*
Regarding the J20 engine, we actually discussed this topic many times last year. The engine used for the J20 from the test flight to the service is the WS10B. (About the journey of the J20 engine, there are links to many articles we published last year at the end of the article. The article has a more detailed introduction to WS10B and WS15). This is different from the imagination of many people. Most people on the Internet believe that the early J20 equipped with the Russian AL31 engine was later replaced with a domestic Taihang engine. Or the Taihang engine was used at the beginning, and then replaced with WS10B and so on. The only basis for these opinions to judge the engine model is the tail nozzle. Facts have proved that these judgments are completely unreliable. In the end, these views were all proved to be wrong.

*WS10B also has vector thrust.*
So, in this article, we will briefly review the development process of the J20 supporting engine. The first fifth-generation fighter jet J20 planned to be developed by my country is scheduled to fly for the first time in early 2011. The supporting engine is also the WS15 engine with an eleventh thrust-to-weight ratio. my country actually had a plan for the development of an engine with a push ratio eleven. By 2005, my country's push ratio eleven high-power core engine was nearly completed, and the WS15 engine was formally approved in early 2006. But in fact, the high-altitude platform test run of the high-propulsion core machine still failed to meet the standard at the time. Restricted by these technical conditions, if the two development stages of the verification machine and the prototype are completed step by step, the final development progress of the WS15 will not be able to keep up with the first flight of the J20 in 2011.

As the most important project of the Air Force, J20 cannot be delayed. Therefore, a term of transitional power plant was mentioned in the official documents at that time. This so-called transitional power device is the WS10B engine. Before the J20 used the WS15, the WS10B engine was used for transition.

This engine is actually a high-power core engine coupled with the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine in series. In fact, this is how it was done in the development stage of the high-profile core machine. In fact, there is no need for supporting external ducts at the core machine stage, but Jiang Hepu's chief engineer at that time was very farsighted. In the development stage of the high-power core engine, the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine were matched to the high-power core engine, and the work of the verification engine was done at the core engine stage, which greatly shortened the development cycle of subsequent engines.

At that time, around 2007, domestic official media reported a modified Taihang engine with an afterburner thrust of 155 kN and a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.5. This engine was the WS10B engine.

*The WS10B was originally planned for 15.5 tons of thrust.*
In fact, the WS10B index at this time was set to be relatively high. In order to reduce the technical difficulty and speed up the progress, the technical index was lowered. In this way, the thrust of the WS10B in the intermediate state drops to about 97 kN below 10 tons, and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. In the past two years, Shenzhen Satellite TV mentioned the performance of WS10B when reporting the J10C service. It is said that the thrust of the intermediate state exceeds 90 kN, and the thrust of afterburner is 144 kN. The more than 90 kN mentioned here is very particular, because speaking too clearly will directly expose the core machine of WS10B.

So why didn't you use Taihang engine or AL31 to test the J20 first, but must use the high-power core engine? The fundamental reason is that the fifth-generation fighter has much higher requirements for the intermediate state thrust of the engine than the previous generation engine. If the J20 wants to achieve supersonic cruise, the intermediate state thrust must be close to 10 tons. The intermediate state thrust of Taihang engine and AL31 engine is basically about 7.5 tons, which is impossible to achieve in any case, even if it is improved, it is completely impossible to achieve.

*This is the view of a domestic engine chief.*
Because the magnitude of improvement is equivalent to an increase from push ratio 8 to push ratio 10. This is completely impossible for the core machine of Taihang or AL31. Even if it can be improved, it will eventually be changed beyond recognition. This is equivalent to re-developing a generation of engines. In this case, there are ready-made high-power core engines that can be used. Therefore, the transitional power used by the J20 was also started on the high-power core machine.

In the end, the WS10B was fitted with a J20 demonstrator after only 300 hours of test flight, and the first flight was completed on January 11, 2011. The WS10B was not equipped with a vector nozzle at the beginning of the flight test. It was only equipped with a vector nozzle after the 2016 prototype. It was not equipped with a vector nozzle until the J20 test flight was completed, which means that the J20 used the vector thrust version of the WS10B when it was officially in service. At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2018, Chief Designer Yang Wei also euphemistically said in response to reporters that the J20 has used a vector thrust engine.

In the article published last year, we summarized the development of the J20 supporting engine into a three-step process. The first step is to push the core engine with the low-pressure end of the Taihang engine. The intermediate state thrust is about 97 kN and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. . The model name at this stage is WS10B. The second step is to restore the technical parameters to the original design state. In the intermediate state, the thrust is 108 kN and the afterburning thrust is 156 kN, which is slightly higher than the original plan of 155 kN. This index can already catch up with the American F119 engine.

*Model WS15.*
The test flight began on the 2021 prototype in September 2017. 
The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. 
Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this.

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## Deino

Grandy said:


> .
> *J20 prototype no. 2021 with WS15 engine, test flight began in September 2017.*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 8月26日的节目中宋心之证实了J20装备了两种发动机
> 前几天国内军事专家宋心之在其栏目宋心之观察室中证实，J20战斗机装备了两种型号的发动机，前期装备的发动机是WS10B，推力在14-15吨，而且是配备了矢量喷管的。后期装备的是WS15发动机。
> 
> J20装备的第二种发动机是WS15.
> 关于J20的发动机，实际上去年我们就多次讨论过这一话题，J20从试飞开始一直到服役用的发动机就是WS10B。（关于J20发动机走过的历程，文章末尾有我们去年发的多篇文章的链接，文中对WS10B和WS15有更详细的介绍）。这与很多人的想象不同，网上大部分人认为J20早期装备的发动机是俄罗斯的AL31发动机，后来又换上了国产太行发动机。或者一开始用的太行发动机，后来换了WS10B等等。这些观点判断发动机型号的唯一的一个依据就是尾喷口，事实证明这些判断完全不靠普。最终这些观点也都被证实都是错误的。
> 
> WS10B也是有矢量推力的.
> 那么，这篇文章我们就来简单回顾一下J20配套发动机研制的过程。我国计划研制的第一型第五代战斗机J20计划在2011年年初首飞，配套的发动机也是十一级推重比的WS15发动机。我国对于研制推比十一级的发动机实际上很早就有规划的。到2005左右我国推比十一级的高推核心机已经接近研制完成，WS15发动机也于2006年年初正式立项。但是实际上当时高推核心机的高空台试车仍未达标，直到2009年年底高推核心机的高空台试车才完全达标。受这些技术条件的限制，如果按部就班的走完验证机、原型机等两个研制阶段，WS15最终的研制进度赶不上J20在2011年的首飞。
> 
> J20作为空军最重要的项目是不可能延误的。所以在当时的官方文件中就提到一个过渡动力装置的名词。这个所谓过渡动力装置就是WS10B发动机，在J20用上WS15之前，就用这个WS10B发动机来做过渡。这个发动机实际上就是将高推核心机再加上太行发动机的风扇以及低压涡轮串装而成的。其实在高推核心机研制阶段就是这样干的。实际上在核心机阶段是不需要配套外涵道的，但是当时的江河浦总师是非常有远见。在高推核心机研制阶段就给高推核心机配套了太行发动机的风扇和低压涡轮，在核心机阶段就把验证机的工作给干了，大大缩短后续发动机的研制周期。
> 
> 当时在2007年左右国内的官方媒体曾报道过一个加力推力155千牛推重比为9.5的太行改型发动机，这个发动机就是WS10B发动机。
> 
> WS10B原计划15.5吨推力.
> 实际上此时的WS10B指标定的是比较高的，为了降低技术难度加快进度，又调低了技术指标。这样WS10B的中间状态推力就降到10吨以下大概97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。前两年深圳卫视在报道J10C服役的时候提到过WS10B的性能。称中间状态推力超过90千牛，加力推力144千牛。这里说的超过90千牛是很有讲究的，因为说得太清楚会直接暴露WS10B的核心机。那么当时为何不先用太行发动机或者AL31给J20来试飞，而一定要用高推核心机呢？根本原因在于第五代战斗机对发动机中间状态推力的要求比上一代发动机高很多，J20要想实现超音速巡航，中间状态推力也要接近10吨。而太行发动机和AL31发动机的中间状态推力基本上都在7.5吨左右，无论如何是无法实现的，即使改进也完全无法实现。
> 
> 这是国内某发动机总师的观点.
> 因为需要提高的幅度相当于从推比8提高到推比10，这是太行或者AL31的核心机完全做不到。即使能够改进最终也会改得面目全非，这样做相当于重新研制一代发动机，既然如此，已经有现成的高推核心机，拿来用就是。所以J20用的过渡动力也是在高推核心机上起步开始做的。
> 最终WS10B在仅仅完成300小时试飞后就装上了J20的验证机，在2011年1月11日完成了首飞。试飞初期WS10B并未配备矢量喷口，只是到了2016号原型以后才配备了矢量喷口，一直到J20试飞完毕服役，也就是说J20正式服役时用的就是矢量推力版的WS10B。2018年珠海航展上，总设计杨伟在答记者问上也委婉的表示J20已经用上了矢量推力发动机。
> 
> 在去年发的文章中，我们把J20配套发动机的发展历程总结为三步曲，第一步高推核心机配太行发动机的低压端，中间状态推力97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。这一阶段型号名称为WS10B。第二步恢复技术参数到原设计状态，中间状态推力108千牛，加力推力156千牛，比原计划的155千牛略高，这个指标已经可以追上美国F119发动机，型号为WS15。自2017年9月在2021号原型机上开始试飞。第三步全新研制风扇和低压涡轮，将高推核心机的潜力完全发挥出来，这个就是WS15的完全版，加力推力18吨左右。据宋心之所述，WS15推重比已经达到10.8到10.9的样子，其加力推力耗油率为1.98比F119的2.4好了不少。我们去年的推测大部分已经被宋心之证实，至于第二步目前还没有被完全证实，或许今年的珠海航展上会有新的消息。
> 
> 
> 
> Google translation :
> 
> In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines.
> A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.
> 
> *The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.*
> Regarding the J20 engine, we actually discussed this topic many times last year. The engine used for the J20 from the test flight to the service is the WS10B. (About the journey of the J20 engine, there are links to many articles we published last year at the end of the article. The article has a more detailed introduction to WS10B and WS15). This is different from the imagination of many people. Most people on the Internet believe that the early J20 equipped with the Russian AL31 engine was later replaced with a domestic Taihang engine. Or the Taihang engine was used at the beginning, and then replaced with WS10B and so on. The only basis for these opinions to judge the engine model is the tail nozzle. Facts have proved that these judgments are completely unreliable. In the end, these views were all proved to be wrong.
> 
> *WS10B also has vector thrust.*
> So, in this article, we will briefly review the development process of the J20 supporting engine. The first fifth-generation fighter jet J20 planned to be developed by my country is scheduled to fly for the first time in early 2011. The supporting engine is also the WS15 engine with an eleventh thrust-to-weight ratio. my country actually had a plan for the development of an engine with a push ratio eleven. By 2005, my country's push ratio eleven high-power core engine was nearly completed, and the WS15 engine was formally approved in early 2006. But in fact, the high-altitude platform test run of the high-propulsion core machine still failed to meet the standard at the time. Restricted by these technical conditions, if the two development stages of the verification machine and the prototype are completed step by step, the final development progress of the WS15 will not be able to keep up with the first flight of the J20 in 2011.
> 
> As the most important project of the Air Force, J20 cannot be delayed. Therefore, a term of transitional power plant was mentioned in the official documents at that time. This so-called transitional power device is the WS10B engine. Before the J20 used the WS15, the WS10B engine was used for transition.
> 
> This engine is actually a high-power core engine coupled with the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine in series. In fact, this is how it was done in the development stage of the high-profile core machine. In fact, there is no need for supporting external ducts at the core machine stage, but Jiang Hepu's chief engineer at that time was very farsighted. In the development stage of the high-power core engine, the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine were matched to the high-power core engine, and the work of the verification engine was done at the core engine stage, which greatly shortened the development cycle of subsequent engines.
> 
> At that time, around 2007, domestic official media reported a modified Taihang engine with an afterburner thrust of 155 kN and a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.5. This engine was the WS10B engine.
> 
> *The WS10B was originally planned for 15.5 tons of thrust.*
> In fact, the WS10B index at this time was set to be relatively high. In order to reduce the technical difficulty and speed up the progress, the technical index was lowered. In this way, the thrust of the WS10B in the intermediate state drops to about 97 kN below 10 tons, and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. In the past two years, Shenzhen Satellite TV mentioned the performance of WS10B when reporting the J10C service. It is said that the thrust of the intermediate state exceeds 90 kN, and the thrust of afterburner is 144 kN. The more than 90 kN mentioned here is very particular, because speaking too clearly will directly expose the core machine of WS10B.
> 
> So why didn't you use Taihang engine or AL31 to test the J20 first, but must use the high-power core engine? The fundamental reason is that the fifth-generation fighter has much higher requirements for the intermediate state thrust of the engine than the previous generation engine. If the J20 wants to achieve supersonic cruise, the intermediate state thrust must be close to 10 tons. The intermediate state thrust of Taihang engine and AL31 engine is basically about 7.5 tons, which is impossible to achieve in any case, even if it is improved, it is completely impossible to achieve.
> 
> *This is the view of a domestic engine chief.*
> Because the magnitude of improvement is equivalent to an increase from push ratio 8 to push ratio 10. This is completely impossible for the core machine of Taihang or AL31. Even if it can be improved, it will eventually be changed beyond recognition. This is equivalent to re-developing a generation of engines. In this case, there are ready-made high-power core engines that can be used. Therefore, the transitional power used by the J20 was also started on the high-power core machine.
> 
> In the end, the WS10B was fitted with a J20 demonstrator after only 300 hours of test flight, and the first flight was completed on January 11, 2011. The WS10B was not equipped with a vector nozzle at the beginning of the flight test. It was only equipped with a vector nozzle after the 2016 prototype. It was not equipped with a vector nozzle until the J20 test flight was completed, which means that the J20 used the vector thrust version of the WS10B when it was officially in service. At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2018, Chief Designer Yang Wei also euphemistically said in response to reporters that the J20 has used a vector thrust engine.
> 
> In the article published last year, we summarized the development of the J20 supporting engine into a three-step process. The first step is to push the core engine with the low-pressure end of the Taihang engine. The intermediate state thrust is about 97 kN and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. . The model name at this stage is WS10B. The second step is to restore the technical parameters to the original design state. In the intermediate state, the thrust is 108 kN and the afterburning thrust is 156 kN, which is slightly higher than the original plan of 155 kN. This index can already catch up with the American F119 engine.
> 
> *Model WS15.*
> The test flight began on the 2021 prototype in September 2017.
> The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4.
> Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this.




Minnie Chan again on dope??


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Minnie Chan again on dope??


The only relevant part of the article is below. Song Xinzhi did say the below portion on record; the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation.

_The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this._

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> The only relevant part of the article is below. Song Xinzhi did say the below portion on record; the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation.
> 
> _The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this._




But why should this part be true if "the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation"?

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> But why should this part be true if "the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation"?


Because the rest of the article did not come from Song Xinzhi while the paragraph I outlined did.

Here is the video. 





宋心之：涡扇-15推力可以达到18吨，看到翻修寿命后都不敢相信 - 西瓜视频


宋心之：涡扇-15推力可以达到18吨，看到翻修寿命后都不敢相信，于2020年08月26日上线，由航空新观察上传。西瓜视频为您提供高清视频，画面清晰、播放流畅，看丰富、高质量视频就上西瓜视频。




www.ixigua.com

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## Grandy

*WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish*

2020-07-28 22:32:03

*abstract*
Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.







Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.






Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.

Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engine. An important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!






That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!

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## Figaro

Grandy said:


> *WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish*
> 
> 2020-07-28 22:32:03
> 
> *abstract*
> Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
> The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.
> 
> It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
> Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .
> 
> View attachment 668817
> 
> 
> Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.
> 
> As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
> CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
> In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.
> 
> View attachment 668818
> 
> 
> Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
> From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.
> 
> The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 668819
> 
> 
> Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.
> Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engineAn important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.
> 
> The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.
> 
> However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!
> 
> View attachment 668817
> View attachment 668818
> That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
> 
> According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.
> 
> For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.
> Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
> Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!


I don't think an article claiming the F119 to have over 18 tonnes of thrust is reliable.

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## wulff

This comes from the original article. But how authentic is this placard?

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## Figaro

wulff said:


> View attachment 668909
> 
> 
> This comes from the original article. But how authentic is this placard?


Here is a pre 2007 study basically confirming the same thing ... a 155 kN WS-10 variant, although this seems to have only been in research rather than an actual project (until recently).

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## samsara

Grandy said:


> *WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish*
> 
> 2020-07-28 22:32:03
> 
> *abstract*
> Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
> The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.
> 
> It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
> Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .
> 
> View attachment 668817
> 
> 
> Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.
> 
> As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
> CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
> In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.
> 
> View attachment 668818
> 
> 
> Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
> From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.
> 
> The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 668819
> 
> 
> Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.
> Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engineAn important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.
> 
> The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.
> 
> However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!
> 
> View attachment 668817
> View attachment 668818
> That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
> 
> According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.
> 
> For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.
> Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
> Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!


"_The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J-20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20._"

What does it mean by "t_he ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust" mentioned above?

Super patrol capabilities = Supercruise capabilities ??_

In other part, it says _"the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world",_ what's exactly the 65,000-ton mold equipment? Metal pressing machine to produce turbine blade??


----------



## Figaro

samsara said:


> "_The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J-20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20._"
> 
> What does it mean by "t_he ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust" mentioned above?
> 
> Super patrol capabilities = Supercruise capabilities ??_
> 
> In other part, it says _"the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world",_ what's exactly the 65,000-ton mold equipment? Metal pressing machine to produce turbine blade??


A lot of his information is incorrect.

The military thrust to afterburner thrust ratio is just the dry thrust divided by the wet thrust.
For the F135 : 128 kN (dry) / 191 kN (wet) = 0.67
F119 : No reliable data available for the dry thrust
WS-15 : Most likely in the upper 0.6 to 0.7 range as well

Typically, the higher this ratio, the better. This ratio has been going up for gas turbines by generation.

Super patrol I'd assume is just supercruise.

I'm not sure what he is referring to the 65k ton equipment by. Such unspecific stuff can mean anything.

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## samsara

Figaro said:


> A lot of his information is incorrect.
> 
> The military thrust to afterburner thrust ratio is just the dry thrust divided by the wet thrust.
> For the F135 : 128 kN (dry) / 191 kN (wet) = 0.67
> F119 : No reliable data available for the dry thrust
> WS-15 : Most likely in the upper 0.6 to 0.7 range as well
> 
> Typically, the higher this ratio, the better. This ratio has been going up for gas turbines by generation.
> 
> Super patrol I'd assume is just supercruise.
> 
> I'm not sure what he is referring to the 65k ton equipment by. Such unspecific stuff can mean anything.


Thank you @Figaro for the feedback. I believe some discrepancies in this article arise due to language issue upon a challenging topic and time-consuming task of translation! (This is a more just comment on the original translator!! Principally the translation work is already good!) If one reads carefully, there are instances of the less common terms used in aviation and aviation engine in English language such as _"the temperature in front of the turbine"_ IS *"the turbine inlet temperature"; *"_adopts a duck layout_" IS *"adopts a canard design"* and so forth. I'm working on refining the English translation, when done I may repost it here 

The 65,000-ton equipment should refer to the *80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge made by Erzhong Group*, the biggest of its kind in the world. Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain --its internal structure-- allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible.

If those discrepancies are fixed, this article will be nice and worthy to read amidst the rare coverage of China's aero engine development in English-language world.

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## Figaro

samsara said:


> Thank you @Figaro for the feedback. I believe some discrepancies in this article arise because its translator from the original Chinese article is not so good. If one reads carefully, there are instances of the not so standard terms used in aviation and aviation engine in English language such as _"the temperature in front of the turbine"_ IS *"the turbine inlet temperature"; *"_adopts a duck layout_" IS *"adopts a canard design"* and so forth. I'm working on refining the English translation, when done I may repost it here
> 
> My very guess, the 65,000-ton equipment is the stamping machine for making the turbine blades.
> 
> If those discrepancies are fixed, this article will be nice and worthy to read amidst the rare coverage of China's aero engine development in English-language world.


The turbine inlet temperature is the most interesting thing here. The original design specs gave a T4 of 1850K to 1900K, which is comparatively low to the 2250K of the F135 (although the corresponding thrust mass flow rate can be increased to compensate). But interesting is that Henri K says the WS-15 T4 temperature is probably around 2000K now, which makes sense given the huge improvements in Chinese materials over the past two decades.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1065264524410871808

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## samsara

Grandy said:


> *WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish*
> 
> 2020-07-28 22:32:03
> 
> *abstract*
> Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
> The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.
> 
> It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
> Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .
> 
> Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.
> 
> As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
> CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
> In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.
> 
> View attachment 668818
> 
> 
> Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
> From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.
> 
> The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 668819
> 
> 
> Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.
> 
> Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engine. An important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.
> 
> The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.
> 
> However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!
> 
> View attachment 668817
> 
> 
> That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
> 
> According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.
> 
> For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.
> 
> Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
> Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!


// EDITED: term adjustment; clarification; additional info

*WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish*

*DayDayNews | 2020-07-28*

Speaking of the development of aero engines (or aviation engines), the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.

The development of aero engines in China for long period had been based on aircraft design first which then dictated the engines needed. In China engine development usually starts after the aircraft design is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed then aircraft. In the United States when developing aircraft, there are already engine options available.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aero engine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aero engine development is much higher than that of aircraft itself, thus the length of time required by aero engine development is much longer than that of aircraft.

*Two different R&D models have completely different consequences.* China often falls into desperation because of the dismantling or cancellation of some aircraft projects, then the engine developments were also affected and eventually failed to carry on. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models/projects are dismantled, the development of aero engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally grow into a powerful aviation engine country.






_Fortunately, the relevant authorities in China have recognized the importance of the continuation of R&D in aero engines, be independent from the aircraft development projects as of the past several years. From the original research and development of aero engine *as an important core part of an aircraft*, its significance is on par with the aircraft itself, and even higher. To this end, the aero engine department *has been independent* from the aviation department, and a major special project __*"Aero Engine and Gas Turbine"*__ has been set up to allocate a huge amount of funding for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of China's aviation engines._

Back to the focus of this article: WS-15 aero engine.






As you all know, the WS-15, codename "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth 5th-generation fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that the J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine codename "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world." _[Both Emei and Taihang are names of the major mountains in China, the Chinese have practices to name after their major aero engines to those significant mountains in China for mountains have very important meaning to Chinese people and possess the characteristics of being *robust*.]_

CCTV even used the words "wow, the world is amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary. In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report *should be the fourth generation*, just like the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both also belong to the fourth generation, while the earlier models of American F110, Russian AL-31, and Chinese WS-10 Taihang belong to the third generation.














Regarding the performance of the Chinese WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert *Song Xinzhi* once drew a table. From the data in that table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it has not yet attained the same level as the improved model of F119 and the mass production model of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67 [see the remarks at the bottom part], the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems that a WS-15 equipped J-20 fighter may not have better super patrol capabilities [or better known as supercruise capabilities] than an American F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout [or canard in aviation term], the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.










Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This outcome reflects that the F135's outer duct [or nozzle; see remarks at the bottom] has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, an F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is less suitable for air control fighter [or, air superiority fighter].

Finally, let's look at the turbine inlet temperature. The turbine inlet temperature is the first process of the aero engine, an important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the turbine inlet temperature increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the turbine inlet temperature has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The turbine inlet temperature of an F119 reaches 1977 Kelvin. It is estimated that the turbine inlet temperature of an F135 is at the same level. The turbine inlet temperature of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aero engines of the United States, but is still about 50-100K lower. This shows that the American fourth-generation aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the turbine inlet temperature of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, *which shows that China will still need to continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials as well as heat dissipation technology.*






Nonetheless, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons *in three stages*. At the beginning phase, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was increased to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum turbine inlet temperature to achieve the purpose of increasing the push (or thrust). *However, due to the later development time of WS-15, more mature powder turbine disk and single-crystal turbine blade technology are used.* In particular the application of the _80,000-ton molding equipment_ [see Note-1 below], _which ranks first among the world_. *Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time.* The first batch of afterburners with a small production quantity has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now its fourth batch may also be produced in small quantity and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 improved version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches with the new engine variant, it is bound to reach its peak! _[In September 2017 it's widely reported that a private firm based in Sichuan, *Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology*, is capable of producing *single-crystal turbine blades using RHENIUM METAL*, which is used in those high-end low-bypass turbofan engines for military aircraft.]_

[*Note-1:* the original translator of the Chinese-language article might have made some mistake on "the 65,000-ton molding equipment". As reported by WSJ 12/2014, *China had the **80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge, a 10-story-tall machine for use in aviation and aerospace industries, which is the biggest of its kind in the world, made by Erzhong Group**.* The biggest forge in the U.S. can exert only 50,000 tons of pressure, and is operated by Alcoa in Ohio. France has a 65,000-ton machine, and Russia has a machine capable of exerting 75,000 tons of pressure. Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain --its internal structure-- allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible by just beating them into shape or welding them together. Greater pressure results in stronger components. The Erzhong forge can exert up to 80,000 tons of downward pressure using five columns. Airbus is using the Russian forge to make landing gear components for the A380, the world's biggest passenger plane. Having the world's biggest forge should allow China to produce large components of higher strength than possible elsewhere.]

[*Note-2:* *Henri Kenhmann from the East Pendulum*, a French blogger ex-Airbus engineer, said in his tweet in Nov. 2018 (see @Figaro post above) that the turbine inlet temperature of the WS-15 Emei engine _might have reached around 2000 Kelvin... _possibly due to the huge improvements in research of material sciences in China over the past two decades.]

That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS-15 "Emei" has begun to match that of the American-made F119. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for China to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in China, *Plasma Flow Control*, is listed as one of the ten cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA).

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), China has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.






For this reason, *China has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields*. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation. But because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieving high speed, controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

_Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use._ However, we have reason to believe that China will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.

Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, China and the world's aviation powers *started almost at the same time, there is no gap,* and China has the advantage of leading the way. China's future aero engine is worth to follow up!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Remarks:*

• The modern combat aircraft use *turbofan engines with low bypass* to compromise between fuel economy and the requirements of combat: high power-to-weight ratios, supersonic performance, and the ability to use afterburners.

• *CROWN JEWEL TECHNOLOGY* -- If the modern combat aircraft is regarded as a high-tech crown, then the (high-performance) aero engine is its CROWN JEWEL. At present there are more than ten countries in the world having the capabilities to design and manufacture modern aircraft (though only two nations in stealth 5th-gen making business so far, USA and China). However, the number of countries capable of independent research and development of aero engines is quite a few, more or less equals to the fingers of one hand (USA, RUS, GBR, FRA, CHN).

• *AFTERBURNERS* (reheat) increase thrust for short periods by burning extra fuel in the jetpipe behind the engine.

• *DRY THRUST* usually means the non-augumented thrust i.e. thrust without the use of afterburners. The MAXIMUM thrust produced by jet engines WITHOUT afterburner is sometimes called *MILITARY THRUST*. The thrust of a jet engine can be increased by using afterburners (reheat). In such cases, the (higher) thrust produced is called *WET THRUST*.

• A *CANARD* is an aeronautical arrangement wherein a small forewing is placed forward of the main wing of a fixed-wing aircraft.

• The propelling *NOZZLE* converts a gas turbine or gas generator into a jet engine.

_Thanks to @Grandy for the original post above and @Figaro for some related feedbacks... this aero engine article caught my interest for re-share in other medium thus I reworked it a bit to have a smoother representation of the original text._

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## S10

zhxy said:


> View attachment 662848


What is the need for such an engine? There has to be a program requirement. You don't spend hundreds of millions for the sake of having said engine.


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## Grandy

*Hit the world in one hour, China's super-combustion ramjet engine has made new progress*

2020-09-12

However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources.

*Although*
said that in the past, we faced the dilemma of being stuck in many fields, and development was greatly restricted, but this will not easily knock down our country’s scientific researchers. After decades of hard work, we finally broke through the restrictions. After catching up and even surpassing, even the much criticized space engine has made new progress.

*01. In order to realize hypersonic fighters, what do you need? *
It is well known that all kinds of advanced equipment are indispensable in order to increase national strength. Up to now, there are only a few countries that can truly master the R&D technology of the fifth-generation aircraft, let alone Hypersonic weapons are now available, and the only country that has completed equipping the army is Russia. Just imagine how difficult it is. However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources. We take the hypersonic fighter as an example. If we want to start development, we must break through the source power barrier. It is the "ultra-high-speed super-combustion ramjet engine."

*02. my country has overcome the key problems in one fell swoop *
For this reason, my country has begun to invest a lot of resources to develop this technology, and now has made new progress. It is important to know that when a fighter plane is climbing at a high altitude, it needs a lot of power from the engine. Therefore, countries will use an oxidant to complete it. The scramjet is different. It can obtain oxygen from the air by itself, thereby providing Fighters provide a steady stream of power, which not only saves weight, but also generates more powerful thrust than before, even four times higher than the rocket.

The relevant person in charge of the project revealed that my country’s scramjet has successfully completed the hydrogen-oxygen fuel propulsion experiment and overcomes the key technical problems in one fell swoop, that is, hydrogen fuel can be completed and 3000 meters per second in one hundredth of an eye. The difficulty of the intersection of air can be described as the firewood in a tornado. The realization of this technology not only means that my country's high-energy pulsed wind tunnel can be put into use from now on, to provide support for the future development of aircraft, but also to truly achieve the grand goal of flying to the world in one hour. This hydrogen-oxygen fuel that can reach a flight speed of Mach 10 Propellers provide technical conditions for my country's research and development of ultra-high-speed scramjets. Perhaps the future hypersonic fighters will no longer be a dream.

*03. American experts frankly said: We are already behind *
Facing my country’s breakthroughs in scramjet engines, American experts admitted frankly: The United States is indeed one step behind. Once China completes the installation in the future, it will strengthen the military's combat power to a certain extent. Whether it is strike or reconnaissance capabilities, disruptive changes will occur. It can be said that hypersonic aircraft is a major trend in future development, and it is the direction that all countries will work towards. As long as the speed exceeds Mach 10, it can achieve any goal of hitting the world in one hour.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308143822237564928

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> This kind of thinking is exactly the mistake that set back China's engine programs. The worst thing you can do to engine development is tightly couple it to specific airframes. Engine development lifecycles are generally much longer than airframe cycles, so if an airframe is modified or dropped, the engine is left in limbo. Engine development needs to be as independent as possible and work under the philosophy of "if you build it, they will come."


But he is right though ... why does China need to spend resources on a NK-32 thrust class engine if there is no usage? The engines should always be derived from aircraft needs and in this case, there is no need for some engine like this. It would make no sense to spend hundreds of millions to billions of dollars and multiple years to develop an engine with no use.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> But he is right though ... why does China need to spend resources on a NK-32 thrust class engine if there is no usage? The engines should always be derived from aircraft needs and in this case, there is no need for some engine like this. It would make no sense to spend hundreds of millions to billions of dollars and multiple years to develop an engine with no use.


Oh, I thought he was talking about the experimental RBCC. Yeah, an NK-32 can just be bought from Russia if China decides to go the Tu-160/B-1B route.


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## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> But why should this part be true if "the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation"?


Because most of these articles are created out of half truth. 
A season analysts will figure it out straightaway.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Grandy said:


> *Hit the world in one hour, China's super-combustion ramjet engine has made new progress*
> 
> 2020-09-12
> 
> However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources.
> 
> *Although*
> said that in the past, we faced the dilemma of being stuck in many fields, and development was greatly restricted, but this will not easily knock down our country’s scientific researchers. After decades of hard work, we finally broke through the restrictions. After catching up and even surpassing, even the much criticized space engine has made new progress.
> 
> *01. In order to realize hypersonic fighters, what do you need? *
> It is well known that all kinds of advanced equipment are indispensable in order to increase national strength. Up to now, there are only a few countries that can truly master the R&D technology of the fifth-generation aircraft, let alone Hypersonic weapons are now available, and the only country that has completed equipping the army is Russia. Just imagine how difficult it is. However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources. We take the hypersonic fighter as an example. If we want to start development, we must break through the source power barrier. It is the "ultra-high-speed super-combustion ramjet engine."
> 
> *02. my country has overcome the key problems in one fell swoop *
> For this reason, my country has begun to invest a lot of resources to develop this technology, and now has made new progress. It is important to know that when a fighter plane is climbing at a high altitude, it needs a lot of power from the engine. Therefore, countries will use an oxidant to complete it. The scramjet is different. It can obtain oxygen from the air by itself, thereby providing Fighters provide a steady stream of power, which not only saves weight, but also generates more powerful thrust than before, even four times higher than the rocket.
> 
> The relevant person in charge of the project revealed that my country’s scramjet has successfully completed the hydrogen-oxygen fuel propulsion experiment and overcomes the key technical problems in one fell swoop, that is, hydrogen fuel can be completed and 3000 meters per second in one hundredth of an eye. The difficulty of the intersection of air can be described as the firewood in a tornado. The realization of this technology not only means that my country's high-energy pulsed wind tunnel can be put into use from now on, to provide support for the future development of aircraft, but also to truly achieve the grand goal of flying to the world in one hour. This hydrogen-oxygen fuel that can reach a flight speed of Mach 10 Propellers provide technical conditions for my country's research and development of ultra-high-speed scramjets. Perhaps the future hypersonic fighters will no longer be a dream.
> 
> *03. American experts frankly said: We are already behind *
> Facing my country’s breakthroughs in scramjet engines, American experts admitted frankly: The United States is indeed one step behind. Once China completes the installation in the future, it will strengthen the military's combat power to a certain extent. Whether it is strike or reconnaissance capabilities, disruptive changes will occur. It can be said that hypersonic aircraft is a major trend in future development, and it is the direction that all countries will work towards. As long as the speed exceeds Mach 10, it can achieve any goal of hitting the world in one hour.


We have heard about this project for ages. 
Thanks for the update.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308143822237564928


Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2020.09.21: 

_An RBCC engine with #scramjet - co-developed by CALT, AALPT and NWPU - successfully completed its maiden flight to the Gobi Desert. _

_The machine could be recovered and it is intact. According to its manufacturer, the data shows that the engine performed better than expected._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308070824616710147
RBCC: Rocket-Based Combined Cycle
scramjet: supersonic combustion ramjet
CALT: China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology
AALPT: Academy of Aerospace Liquid Propulsion Technology
NWPU: Northwestern Polytechnical University

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## samsara

samsara said:


> Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2020.09.21:
> 
> _An RBCC engine with #scramjet - co-developed by CALT, AALPT and NWPU - successfully completed its maiden flight to the Gobi Desert.
> 
> The machine could be recovered and it is intact. According to its manufacturer, the data shows that the engine performed better than expected._
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308070824616710147
> RBCC: Rocket-Based Combined Cycle
> scramjet: supersonic combustion ramjet
> CALT: China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology
> AALPT: Academy of Aerospace Liquid Propulsion Technology
> NWPU: Northwestern Polytechnical University


From taxiya's explanation as well as the below link & pics by by78, both at SDF:

Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Institute of CASC has apparently conducted a successful flight test of a *TRRE engine* --instead of the widely stated "rocket-based combined cycle (RBCC)" engine earlier-- intended for a single-stage reusable space plane.

*西安航天动力研究所：某组合动力发动机首飞成功*


https://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2020_09_22_565922.shtml













Corrections:

It is 2 stage to space as you can see from the last picture.
It is *not* RBCC (Rocket Based Combined Cycle) which does not have a turbine. There is *no* RBCC program in China as far as I can gather. Actually RBCC concept was never seriously considered by Chinese according to this paper _"Analysis of Key Technologies and Propulsion Performance Research of TRRE Engine"_ published by 11th Institute in Beijing in 2017.
It is almost certain that this tested engine is *TRRE* (_Turbo-aided Rocket-augmented Ram⁃jet Combined Cycle Engine_) which is studied above because the test was conducted by the 11th Institute in Xi'an which is the other office of the 11th Institute besides the one in Beijing. The same developer , the same program.
Speculation:
It was said in the article that you posted



> 2020年金秋清晨，位于我国西北的某靶场上，伴随着巨大的响声，一支*穿云箭*划破宁静，缕缕白烟在蓝天与黄沙的映衬下分外惹眼，仿佛架起天与地连接的桥梁。



The bold texts indicated that the engine or test craft was launched by a rocket. This indicates that the engine was only tested in the Ramjet->Rocket Inducted transition->Scramjet regime, excluding the turbine powered phase (Ma 1 to 2). It means that they have not built a flyable air-frame with autonomous flight control system that could enable taking off horizontally from a runway. That should be the next milestone for use to watch.

Connecting the dots:

The spacecraft (spaceplane) launched days ago was the 2nd stage of the combo in the 2nd picture above. It uses rocket engine to enter Low-Earth Orbit (LEO) after departing from the carrier aircraft.
The newly tested engine is to be used by the 1st stage carrier aircraft in the 3rd step.
Now we are beginning to see the puzzles being put together.

Note: the research team looks so young! Amazing!

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## CIA Mole

Hi this is to be used for those like wz8 drone?


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## Grandy

.
*China's combined engine is ahead of the United States, and the three power modes have the significance of subverting the era*

2020-09-27 15:48:08

The major countries in the world are all developing "combined engines" and want to combine different types of engines. The characteristic of this engine is that it can adapt to the needs of various airspaces, and it can fly at low altitudes, fly at high altitudes, and even fly in space. Its application range is very broad. According to the latest information, there is good news from China's Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute. The domestically-made "combined engine" developed by the institute has successfully passed the test and achieved excellent results.

It is understood that during the test, the “combined engine” of Xi’an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute completed a 600-second test run, which set a new record in history. You should know that the same type of products tested in the United States have only been tested for 200 seconds. This means that China has come to the front of the United States in the field of "combined engines". According to a domestic media report on September 26, the "combined engine" developed by Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute also has three power modes, which combine turbojet engine technology, super combustion engine technology, and rocket engine technology. The meaning of the times.

Conventional "combined engines" generally only use two engine technologies, because it is easier to study. For example, the "combined engine" developed in the United States uses a combination of a turbofan engine and a turbojet engine, which allows the engine to perform better conversion between subsonic and supersonic speeds. Compared with China's "combined engine", the American "combined engine" is undoubtedly much simpler.

The "combined engine" developed by China is actually more like a future technology product, which will be mainly applied to aerospace aircraft. Everyone knows that conventional turbojet engines and turbofan engines can only fly at an altitude of 25 to 30 kilometers. The transcendent ramjet is mainly flying at altitudes of 50 kilometers to 60 kilometers. Once the "near space" (100 kilometers) is exceeded, turbojet engines, turbofan engines, and transcendent ramjet engines have to stop and cannot continue to fly, because these three engines require oxygen during flight, and space There is no oxygen.

If you want to continue flying in space, you have to use a rocket engine. The "combined engine" developed by China combines turbojet engine technology, super combustion engine technology, and rocket engine technology, which means it can be from the ground Fly all the way to space, soar freely in the atmosphere and space. In today's world, there is no engine that can achieve this. The "combined engine" developed by China can be said to have created a historical precedent.

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## samsara

samsara said:


> From taxiya's explanation as well as the below link & pics by by78, both at SDF:
> 
> Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Institute of CASC has apparently conducted a successful flight test of a *TRRE engine* --instead of the widely stated "rocket-based combined cycle (RBCC)" engine earlier-- intended for a single-stage reusable space plane.
> 
> *西安航天动力研究所：某组合动力发动机首飞成功*
> 
> 
> https://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2020_09_22_565922.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 672843
> 
> View attachment 672842
> 
> 
> Corrections:
> 
> It is 2 stage to space as you can see from the last picture.
> It is *not* RBCC (Rocket Based Combined Cycle) which does not have a turbine. There is *no* RBCC program in China as far as I can gather. Actually RBCC concept was never seriously considered by Chinese according to this paper _"Analysis of Key Technologies and Propulsion Performance Research of TRRE Engine"_ published by 11th Institute in Beijing in 2017.
> It is almost certain that this tested engine is *TRRE* (_Turbo-aided Rocket-augmented Ram⁃jet Combined Cycle Engine_) which is studied above because the test was conducted by the 11th Institute in Xi'an which is the other office of the 11th Institute besides the one in Beijing. The same developer , the same program.
> Speculation:
> It was said in the article that you posted
> 
> 
> 
> The bold texts indicated that the engine or test craft was launched by a rocket. This indicates that the engine was only tested in the Ramjet->Rocket Inducted transition->Scramjet regime, excluding the turbine powered phase (Ma 1 to 2). It means that they have not built a flyable air-frame with autonomous flight control system that could enable taking off horizontally from a runway. That should be the next milestone for use to watch.
> 
> Connecting the dots:
> 
> The spacecraft (spaceplane) launched days ago was the 2nd stage of the combo in the 2nd picture above. It uses rocket engine to enter Low-Earth Orbit (LEO) after departing from the carrier aircraft.
> The newly tested engine is to be used by the 1st stage carrier aircraft in the 3rd step.
> Now we are beginning to see the puzzles being put together.
> 
> Note: the research team looks so young! Amazing!



SOME CORRECTIONS

_Taxiya_ /SDF made some corrections to his earlier information:

The TRRE proposal was done by *the 31st Institute* in Beijing*,* which is a member of *CASIC* (China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation Limited).

*The 11th Institute* in Beijing is on the other hand a member of *CASC* (China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation), it has its counterpart in Xi'an who got involved in the test.

_Whether the tested engine is RBCC (Rocket Based Combined Cycle) or TRRE (Turbo-aided Rocket-augmented Ramjet combined cycle engine) is unclear_, although RBCC was never heard in open channel, it could be that CASC did an extremely good job in keeping secret.

Another member there, _Hitchhiker_, provided another link in Chinese media discussing more in depth background of this flight test:

“组合动力”试飞成功，为什么“送人上天”这么激动？ - 哔哩哔哩








“组合动力”试飞成功，为什么“送人上天”这么激动？


昨天，西安航天动力研究所微信公号发表文章《十年艰难求索路 一飞冲天震九霄——我所研制的某组合动力发动机首飞成功》文章中提到，2020年金秋，在我国西北某靶场，该所（六院11所）研制的新型组合动力发动机验证产品首次进行发射试验，“发动机不负众望，按时序先后完成全部预定动作”。“试后检查产品完好，从遥测数据分析，本次飞行试验完成了所有考核项目，发动机各项性能均超出地面试验结果和预期水平，试验取得超圆满成功。进一步验证了真实飞行状态，来流条件下发动机各项关键技术，为后续发展奠定基础。”我们都知道这类由




www.bilibili.com




_The "Combined power" flight test was successful. Why is "sending people to fly to the sky (space)" so excited?_

It is called TRRE by the developer. A screenshot of this publication:
_"Analysis of Key Technologies and Propulsion Performance Research of TRRE Engine" _

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## siegecrossbow

Su33KUB said:


> hypocrite better present better arguments that you lack, your childish theories that C919 is testing western equipment to make it more appealing, ARJ-21 is a total utter failure that will make any passenger worry to get into a Chinese airliner, China still is behind in aeroengines but a good hypocrite says excuses why you bought 1000 Al-31s and you continue buying Russian engines either for Y-20 or Su-35. and your blindness and ignorance why a single engine fighter needs a very reliable engine, so the Chinese engineers are not stupid they went for ws-10 for J-11 and al-31 for J-10 only a fool like you make stupid theories they bought it for Charity hypocrite!



Lol.






Images suggest China has begun fitting indigenous WS10 engine into J-10C fighters


China has begun fitting locally made Shenyang-Liming WS10 ‘Taihang'-series engines into its J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, images released on 2 March by state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) suggest. A screengrab from CCTV footage released on 2 March showing a J-10C multirole



www.google.com


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## Figaro

siegecrossbow said:


> Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images suggest China has begun fitting indigenous WS10 engine into J-10C fighters
> 
> 
> China has begun fitting locally made Shenyang-Liming WS10 ‘Taihang'-series engines into its J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, images released on 2 March by state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) suggest. A screengrab from CCTV footage released on 2 March showing a J-10C multirole
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Isn't this the same guy as B787 who incessantly trolled SDF a few years ago?


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Isn't this the same guy as B787 who incessantly trolled SDF a few years ago?




Yep


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## siegecrossbow

Figaro said:


> Isn't this the same guy as B787 who incessantly trolled SDF a few years ago?



B787, MIG-29, MIG-23, same guy.


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## Deino

What do you think?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316676184911028224

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 679675
> View attachment 679676
> View attachment 679677
> View attachment 679678
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin




Would you please be so kind and add a summary in English or at least tell what it is about?

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## Deino

I stumbled across the no. 15 in the title, which is always most interesting, but it seems more likely related to the number of engine stages than the WS-15?! 



> 一种推比15级航空发动机设想，采用新原理涡轮盘极大提高单级增压比



= A design of a 15-stage aero engine with a thrust ratio, which uses a new principle turbine disc to greatly improve the single-stage boost ratio

Anyone with an idea what kind of engine this is?






微博


随时随地发现新鲜事！微博带你欣赏世界上每一个精彩瞬间，了解每一个幕后故事。分享你想表达的，让全世界都能听到你的心声！




m.weibo.cn


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> I stumbled across the no. 15 in the title, which is always most interesting, but it seems more likely related to the number of engine stages than the WS-15?!
> 
> = A design of a 15-stage aero engine with a thrust ratio, which uses a new principle turbine disc to greatly improve the single-stage boost ratio


It just means the thrust-weight ratio is 15.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> It just means the thrust-weight ratio is 15.




Ok, but thrust-weight ratio is 15 would hint towards the next generation engine or even a variable cycle type?

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Ok, but thrust-weight ratio is 15 would hint towards the next generation engine or even a variable cycle type?


The TWR 15 engine should refer to the variable/adaptive cycle engine.


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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


>


国产战机集结出阵！走进深山探秘钢铁战鹰的“心脏医院”！战斗机总装车间曝光大开眼界！「军迷行天下」20201007 | 军迷天下

本期节目主要内容：都说航空发动机是飞机的心脏，在航空领域中所取得的每一次重大的革命性进展无不与航空发动机的技术突破和进步密切相关。号称飞机心脏的航空发动机，如何修复如初再上蓝天？细如发丝的零件加工，又要经历怎样意想不到的工艺流程？本期节目走进深山里的“三线厂”，揭开战鹰发动机维修的艰辛往事。






China made fighters assembled! Exploring into the "heart hospital" of iron and steel Fighter Eagle! The exposure of fighter assembly workshop is an eye opener! | 20201007

The main content of this program: it is said that aeroengine is the heart of aircraft. Every major revolutionary progress made in the aviation field is closely related to the technological breakthrough and progress of aeroengine. How to repair the aeroengine, which is called the heart of an airplane, to return to the blue sky? As thin as hair parts processing, and to experience the unexpected technological process? This program goes into the deep of the "third line factory" to reveal the difficult past of the engine maintenance of the Fighter Eagle.


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## LKJ86

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320247111754153984




@Deino

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业强度所 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

WS-20 ???




Via @e网西航 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-16 & WS-10







Via @罪恶大天使 from Weibo

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## aliaselin

Recently heard that WS20 follows CCAR25 rule and can be used on C919，and there is a designation as WS16 which is medium bypass engine based on WS20?

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## LKJ86

The engine for Cloud Shadow (WL-10) UAV:




Via @航空君 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @ 西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


>



You watched this too? I yawned numbers of times and skipped when watching. Narration is dull, don't know why narrators of China documentaries like to lower tone and mumbling thinking that it's stylish to do so. Back in older days narrators would narrate in fun or exciting presentation, not like this. Also they like to copy bad influence lighting from some western movies by placing dark tinted filters on camera lense and overdone it with too dark.


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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 712186
> 
> Via @中国航发 from Weixin



which engine is this ..... and specification plz ???


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## siegecrossbow

HRK said:


> which engine is this ..... and specification plz ???



WS-10 for either J-10C or J-20.

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## CAPRICORN-88

WS-15????


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## Polestar 2

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 712186
> 
> Via @中国航发 from Weixin


I think its WS-10 engine.

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## samsara

From OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.02.01:

The CJ-1000 engine to be installed on the C919 uses a *special titanium-aluminum alloy fan blade developed by the Institute of Metal Research (IMR), Chinese Academy of Sciences*, and has *twice the specific gravity* of conventional nickel-based alloys. *The development of CJ-1000 is going well, and CJ-2000 is also being promoted.*

The core engine of CJ-2000 succeeded in the first ignition on March 5th last year, achieving a maximum rotation of 100.6%.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356194148882112514
The Institute of Metal Research (IMR), CAS 中国科学院金属研究所 was founded in 1953, and has its HQ in Shenyang, the capital and largest city of Liaoning Province. Since then, IMR has firmly established itself as an indispensable base for materials science and engineering research in China.

* * * * *

_Introducing nanostructure into materials like metals can produce surprising results. Making the grain size smaller in some metals such as copper can increase strength. Other material properties like conductivity, ductility, and melting point can also be affected by the nanostructure._

*Professor Ke Lu* wants to understand the mechanisms underlying these findings and develop ways of nanostructuring materials to control their properties. He has created a research group at the *Shenyang National Laboratory for Materials Science (SYNL) *to explore these questions and provide potential answers for real-world applications. The Institute of Metal Research (IMR) in Shenyang, which is part of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), is home to Lu’s *Nanometals Group*.

*Lab profile: Professor Ke Lu, Institute of Metal Research, CAS*




__





Lab profile: Ke Lu, Institute of Metal Research, CAS - Materials Today


Ke Lu's research focuses on processing nanostructured metals and their mechanical behavior.




www.materialstoday.com

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 714419




Can anyone give a translated summary please in order to estimate its reliability?

By the way ...






via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358741931652567040

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Can anyone give a translated summary please in order to estimate its reliability?
> 
> By the way ...
> 
> View attachment 714897
> 
> 
> via
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358741931652567040


Looks extremely suspicious. The WS-15 has a max thrust of only 150 kN, which is just a few more than the latest WS-10 variant in the mid 140s. Also the thrust to weight ratio looks suspicious as well since it was a clear goal to get the TWR up to 10.

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## Deino

As per @horobeyo/Twitter this seems to be related to the WS-15, but can anyone please provide a translation?!

Thanks in advance.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361750578783653888


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## sheik

Deino said:


> As per @horobeyo/Twitter this seems to be related to the WS-15, but can anyone please provide a translation?!
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361750578783653888
> View attachment 717020



According to official reports, the progress of WS-15 in late 2018 was comparable to the progress of WS-10 at 2001. Thus its design would be finalized at around 2022 and the mass production would be started in 2024-2025. This also verified the words from CAE academician, Liu Daxiang. In his public talk in mid 2018, Liu said the design of the 4th generation of engines would be finalized in 3 to 5 years.

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## CAPRICORN-88

*The F-35’s Engine Is a Bit Busted Right Now
Between cracked turbine blades and slow repair periods, things aren't going so great.*

By Kyle Mizokami FEB 18, 2021
PopularMechanic

The Pentagon says a slowdown in the delivery of F-35 fighter jet engines could sideline scores of Air Force F-35As by 2025.
The F135 engine is experiencing longer repair periods, and high temperatures are producing cracks in turbine blades.
These problems have forced the Air Force to reduce appearances by the service’s F-35 air show team.

The U.S. Air Force’s F-35 fighter fleet is running into yet another problem: a shortage of engines.

Five years after declaring the F-35 ready for combat, the Air Force is discovering the aircraft’s Pratt & Whitney F135 engine takes longer to maintain than originally projected. *A heat-related issue is also causing cracks in the F135’s fan blade coatings. If left unchecked, the problem could reportedly ground up to 20 percent of the Air Force’s F-35s by 2025.*

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a single-engine jet fighter designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. The F-35’s engine, the F135 afterburning turbofan, produces 28,000 pounds of thrust, or 43,000 pounds of thrust with afterburner on. The F135 powers the entire F-35 fleet, including the Marine Corps’ short vertical takeoff and landing -B model, allowing the aircraft to take off vertically if needed.

F-135 pratt whitney f 35
An F135 engine undergoing testing.
U.S. AIR FORCE

The F135 Heavy Maintenance Center at Tinker Air Force Base isn’t processing engines and getting them out to the jet fleet as fast as anticipated, Bloomberg reports. The problem is exacerbated by the engines being run at higher temperatures than originally planned, leading to several engines developing cracks in the coatings of their turbine blades. Maintainers are replacing these blades as they discover them

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## kungfugymnast

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> *The F-35’s Engine Is a Bit Busted Right Now
> Between cracked turbine blades and slow repair periods, things aren't going so great.*
> 
> By Kyle Mizokami FEB 18, 2021
> PopularMechanic
> 
> The Pentagon says a slowdown in the delivery of F-35 fighter jet engines could sideline scores of Air Force F-35As by 2025.
> The F135 engine is experiencing longer repair periods, and high temperatures are producing cracks in turbine blades.
> These problems have forced the Air Force to reduce appearances by the service’s F-35 air show team.
> 
> The U.S. Air Force’s F-35 fighter fleet is running into yet another problem: a shortage of engines.
> 
> Five years after declaring the F-35 ready for combat, the Air Force is discovering the aircraft’s Pratt & Whitney F135 engine takes longer to maintain than originally projected. *A heat-related issue is also causing cracks in the F135’s fan blade coatings. If left unchecked, the problem could reportedly ground up to 20 percent of the Air Force’s F-35s by 2025.*
> 
> The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a single-engine jet fighter designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. The F-35’s engine, the F135 afterburning turbofan, produces 28,000 pounds of thrust, or 43,000 pounds of thrust with afterburner on. The F135 powers the entire F-35 fleet, including the Marine Corps’ short vertical takeoff and landing -B model, allowing the aircraft to take off vertically if needed.
> 
> F-135 pratt whitney f 35
> An F135 engine undergoing testing.
> U.S. AIR FORCE
> 
> The F135 Heavy Maintenance Center at Tinker Air Force Base isn’t processing engines and getting them out to the jet fleet as fast as anticipated, Bloomberg reports. The problem is exacerbated by the engines being run at higher temperatures than originally planned, leading to several engines developing cracks in the coatings of their turbine blades. Maintainers are replacing these blades as they discover them



F-135 engine is pushing the limit generating 43,000lb max thrust is something beyond F-22's P&W F-119 & GE F-120 36,000lb. The intense heat will be far higher along with fast wear and tear if materials used for the compressor blades and cooler can't take it for long. 

The WS-15 is larger than WS-10C and should be able to generate higher thrust by few thousand if required. It depends whether J-20B needed 40,000lb or 36,000lb is adequate.

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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> F-135 engine is pushing the limit generating 43,000lb max thrust is something beyond F-22's P&W F-119 & GE F-120 36,000lb. The intense heat will be far higher along with fast wear and tear if materials used for the compressor blades and cooler can't take it for long.
> 
> The WS-15 is larger than WS-10C and should be able to generate higher thrust by few thousand if required. It depends whether J-20B needed 40,000lb or 36,000lb is adequate.


Engine designed on fighter jets in mind, and F-35 has single F-135 and its a high by pass ratio turbofan where F-119 low by pass turbofan and F-22 using 2 of these and as for J-20B is slightly longer and heavier than rest of the 5th gen jets so its needs at least 40,000 lbs engine to compensate weight issue and do remember WS-15 is low by pass engine


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## Han Patriot

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwXMmy5fUrVwAXhrQG0Nwx9d3TyKKn354



Development of ceramic composites, there is a section on engine blades.

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## Polestar 2

White and Green with M/S said:


> Engine designed on fighter jets in mind, and F-35 has single F-135 and its a high by pass ratio turbofan where F-119 low by pass turbofan and F-22 using 2 of these and as for J-20B is slightly longer and heavier than rest of the 5th gen jets so its needs at least 40,000 lbs engine to compensate weight issue and do remember WS-15 is low by pass engine


J-20 might not be as heavy as you all think. A twin 15000kg thrust engine are fine with it.


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## sheik

White and Green with M/S said:


> Engine designed on fighter jets in mind, and F-35 has single F-135 and its a high by pass ratio turbofan where F-119 low by pass turbofan and F-22 using 2 of these and as for J-20B is slightly longer and heavier than rest of the 5th gen jets so its needs at least 40,000 lbs engine to compensate weight issue and do remember WS-15 is low by pass engine



Believe it or not, J-20 is actually lighter than F-22. According to some Chinese military magazines the empty weight is only about 15 tons, thanks to the use of advanced materials like ceramic composites, new technologies like 3D printing, and the use of much more powerful forging machines, etc.

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## Deino

sheik said:


> Believe it or not, J-20 is actually lighter than F-22. According to some Chinese military magazines the empty weight is only about 15 tons, thanks to the use of advanced materials like ceramic composites, new technologies like 3D printing, and the use of much more powerful forging machines, etc.




Well "According to some Chinese ... " the J-20 already uses a +240 kN serial TVC-WS-15. I would be very careful with such claims.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## White and Green with M/S

Polestar 2 said:


> J-20 might not be as heavy as you all think. A twin 15000kg thrust engine are fine with it.





sheik said:


> Believe it or not, J-20 is actually lighter than F-22. According to some Chinese military magazines the empty weight is only about 15 tons, thanks to the use of advanced materials like ceramic composites, new technologies like 3D printing, and the use of much more powerful forging machines, etc.


But you guys also consider drag issue, the bigger jet is more drag it have, to overcome the EXCESS DRAG THEN YOU NEED MORE POWERFUL ENGNIE THAN REST OF THE 5TH GEN JETS, 15,000 KG +


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## siegecrossbow

sheik said:


> Believe it or not, J-20 is actually lighter than F-22. According to some Chinese military magazines the empty weight is only about 15 tons, thanks to the use of advanced materials like ceramic composites, new technologies like 3D printing, and the use of much more powerful forging machines, etc.



F-35 is like 13 tons. Unless China has alien tech I don’t see the empty weight of the J-20 being lower than 18 tons with 17 tons as the absolute lowest floor.


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## CAPRICORN-88

siegecrossbow said:


> F-35 is like 13 tons. Unless China has alien tech I don’t see the empty weight of the J-20 being lower than 18 tons with 17 tons as the absolute lowest floor.



_It is interesting to know why you are comparing F-35 with J-20?
Why the sudden switch? 

F-35 is in a different class in comparison to F-22 or J-20.

If Chengdu J-20 Li-Al-Ti alloy airframes which is revealed as much 30% lighter than those of F-22 airframes is alien technology then it is indeed. 

IMO F-35 is just an overly rated and expensive FGFA designed for exports still plagued with unresolved 891 defects up till Jan. 2021. 

That is why in view of J-20 newly released capabIlity, USAF is now mulling a replacement for her aging F-22 Raptor. 
What Pentagon fear is J-20 fitted with a pair of thrust vectoring WS-15 today? _

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## Polestar 2

White and Green with M/S said:


> But you guys also consider drag issue, the bigger jet is more drag it have, to overcome the EXCESS DRAG THEN YOU NEED MORE POWERFUL ENGNIE THAN REST OF THE 5TH GEN JETS, 15,000 KG +


J-20 is canard delta design. I don't think it is as draggy as swing wings T layout of F-22.

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## White and Green with M/S

Polestar 2 said:


> J-20 is canard delta design. I don't think it is as draggy as swing wings T layout of F-22.


Where are the F-22 uses T layout and swing Wing design?
Do you know what is the swing Wing design?


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## LKJ86

WZ-16







Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## Falcon26

LKJ86 said:


> WZ-16
> View attachment 723958
> View attachment 723959
> 
> Via @中国航发 from Weixin



what does it say?


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## siegecrossbow

Falcon26 said:


> what does it say?



It’s an approval notice.

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## Daniel808

Falcon26 said:


> what does it say?



Approval notice for Production of WZ-16 1,300KW Helicopter Engine

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## ZeEa5KPul

Interesting. I recall reading that WZ-9 engines delivered since 2016 have a power output of 1100kW, and variants on the Z-10s with upturned exhausts have 1200kW. I wonder if they've been able to boost the WZ-9's power since then.

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## Polestar 2

Rumor PLAAF places order for C919 militarize version. Meaning the domestic engine of WS-20 or or near future CJ-1000A are ready soon.

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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> Rumor PLAAF places order for C919 militarize version. Meaning the domestic engine of WS-20 or or near future CJ-1000A are ready soon.




Based on what sources?

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## Grandy

.
From superalloy to single crystal alloy + compound cooling, look at the development of aero-engine blades.

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## waja2000

Polestar 2 said:


> Rumor PLAAF places order for C919 militarize version. Meaning the domestic engine of WS-20 or or near future CJ-1000A are ready soon.



seems unlikely, since not only engine issue, so many major parts are from USA.

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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> Rumor PLAAF places order for C919 militarize version. Meaning the domestic engine of WS-20 or or near future CJ-1000A are ready soon.




Would you please explain on what rumour? I heard no such rumour and as such it would be fine to tell, what's the source for this.

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## Deino

Any confirmation for this? Never heard that the uprated WS-13E might be designated WS-21?!!

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## LKJ86

WS-10







Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

WS-10 & J-16




Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## clibra

kungfugymnast said:


> F-135 engine is pushing the limit generating 43,000lb max thrust is something beyond F-22's P&W F-119 & GE F-120 36,000lb. The intense heat will be far higher along with fast wear and tear if materials used for the compressor blades and cooler can't take it for long.
> 
> The WS-15 is larger than WS-10C and should be able to generate higher thrust by few thousand if required. It depends whether J-20B needed 40,000lb or 36,000lb is adequate.


The BPR of F-135 is 0.56, much bigger than that of F-119's 0.3, not to mention 0.25 of FWS-15.
From this parameter, we can tell that F35 is not a real 5-Gen fighter, because the higher BPR of the engine, the poorer high altitude and high speed performance of the fighter will be.


siegecrossbow said:


> F-35 is like 13 tons. Unless China has alien tech I don’t see the empty weight of the J-20 being lower than 18 tons with 17 tons as the absolute lowest floor.



Let's wait and see

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## clibra

waja2000 said:


> seems unlikely, since not only engine issue, so many major parts are from USA.



Not that many. 
Have you ever seen the advanced cockpit of Y20? China already had all those indigenous avionics subsystem tech for years.
China use USA subsystem in C919 is ONLY for FAA certification, so that C919 can be sold to the west market.
If USA play dirty tricks to backstab COMAC, China can block Boeing too, and still sell C919 in domestic and none western overseas market.

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Any confirmation for this? Never heard that the uprated WS-13E might be designated WS-21?!!
> 
> View attachment 724695


WS21 is an UAV engine. So it may not be true

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## Deino

By the way ... any idea what type of engine under the Il-76LL could be? It looks slimmer than the D30-KP-2 and as such could be an engine for a fighter-sized type? ... maybe the WS-13E, WS-19??? I have no idea.


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## S10

waja2000 said:


> seems unlikely, since not only engine issue, so many major parts are from USA.


Avionics are easily replaced. The reason they ordered so many parts from US/EU is political in nature, in order to get safety certifications. If it's a militarized version, there won't be so many hoops to jump through.

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## White and Green with M/S

S10 said:


> Avionics are easily replaced. The reason they ordered so many parts from US/EU is political in nature, in order to get safety certifications. If it's a militarized version, there won't be so many hoops to jump through.


its not only about avionics your new passenger use too many techs from West/USA such as hydraulics, APU and other mechanical subsystems


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## S10

White and Green with M/S said:


> its not only about avionics your new passenger use too many techs from West/USA such as hydraulics, APU and other mechanical subsystems


Like I said, we already have experience developing those from Y-10 and Y-20 projects. Compared to the engines, everything else is easy.

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## White and Green with M/S

S10 said:


> Like I said, we already have experience developing those from Y-10 and Y-20 projects. Compared to the engines, everything else is easy.


 but its take time at least few months to design and develop/tests these new gadgets than fly on your new passenger jets, i assume it will fly in year or so


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## CAPRICORN-88

_The problem is we don't know when these pictures were actually taken.

These are the exciting moments in the life of China watchers. _

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## Polestar 2

Deino said:


> Based on what sources?









This shall give u a hint of future dual use of civilian airliner.









Xian MA60 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




.

And we have photo of WS-20 engine undergoing trial or final production check on Y-20.


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## Han Patriot

White and Green with M/S said:


> its not only about avionics your new passenger use too many techs from West/USA such as hydraulics, APU and other mechanical subsystems


Dude hydraulics and avionics are simple stuff, the hard part has always been the engine. You underestimate Chinese aerospace industry.

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## Aasimkhan

Can some one give MTBO of Chinese, Russian and US/European engines?


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## White and Green with M/S

Han Patriot said:


> Dude hydraulics and avionics are simple stuff, the hard part has always been the engine. You underestimate Chinese aerospace industry.


If you are able to produce and develop INDEGINOUS hydraulics and avionics for PLAAF than why you China can't develop and produce INDEGENIOUS hydraulics and avionics for your passenger jets like ARJ-21 and C-919???


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## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> If you are able to produce and develop INDEGINOUS hydraulics and avionics for PLAAF than why you China can't develop and produce INDEGENIOUS hydraulics and avionics for your passenger jets like ARJ-21 and C-919???


COMAC just does what Boeing and Airbus do to develop commercial airliners, by using the components from the whole world.

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## Han Patriot

White and Green with M/S said:


> If you are able to produce and develop INDEGINOUS hydraulics and avionics for PLAAF than why you China can't develop and produce INDEGENIOUS hydraulics and avionics for your passenger jets like ARJ-21 and C-919???


Certification issues mate. Its easier to get certified by FAA if you used certified suppliers, understand? Hydraulics are not complicated at all, avionicd too.

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## Polestar 2

I dare to bet the avionics of Y-20 is even more complicated to produced than C919.


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## LKJ86

WS-10




Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine




Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine
> View attachment 742248
> 
> Via @央广军事 from Weixin


Not very long ago I would have been quite excited to see this, now it's just a bit ho-hum. I anticipate that in the coming few years CAC will be winding down production on the J-10 family and going all in on the J-20.


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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I anticipate that in the coming few years CAC will be winding down production on the J-10 family and going all in on the J-20.


J-20 doesn't replace J-10.

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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> J-20 doesn't replace J-10.



Would the PLAAF be interested in a single engine J-20 variant or have the expressed interest in a twin engine medium weight fighter? They surely don’t want to build an all J-20 fleet.


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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> J-20 doesn't replace J-10.


Not tactically. I mean CAC terminating J-10 production and converting those lines to produce J-20s.


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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I mean CAC terminating J-10 production and converting those lines to produce J-20s.


It is impossible, until SAC's J-XX or others are in mass production.


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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> It is impossible, until SAC's J-XX or others are in mass production.


"Impossible" is a strong word. I don't see what SAC's J-XX has to do with CAC's production, could you explain what you mean? I expect CAC to stop producing J-10s around 2023, certainly no later than 2025.


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## siegecrossbow

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Not very long ago I would have been quite excited to see this, now it's just a bit ho-hum. I anticipate that in the coming few years CAC will be winding down production on the J-10 family and going all in on the J-20.



You greedy man. Don’t you know what this means? J-10, after one and a half decade, has finally entered service with the original designated engine! This is almost like a belated wedding and certainly cause for great celebration!

This will also pave the way for J-10C export. Now that the single engines variant of WS-10 has been equipped on the J-10, it demonstrates confidence in domestic engine and best of all, China could produce as many fighters as it wants.

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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I don't see what SAC's J-XX has to do with CAC's production


SAC's J-XX does have to do with CAC's production.


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> WS-10
> View attachment 727063
> View attachment 727064
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo





LKJ86 said:


> WS-10 & J-16
> View attachment 727306
> 
> Via @央视军事 from Weibo


WS-10 engines & J-16








Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


>


军工记忆·强健战鹰“中国心”：披荆斩棘！探秘中国航空发动机发展历程 「国防故事」| 军迷天下

本期节目主要内容：航空发动机被誉为“飞机的心脏”，在航空领域中所取得的每一次重大的革命性进展，无不与航空发动机的技术突破和进步密切相关。中国航空发动机的研制是在新中国成立后，在一片空白的基础上发展起来的。从最初的仿制、改进、改型到现在可以独立设计制造高性能航空发动机，一路走来披荆斩棘。

*Exploring the development history of China's AERO-ENGINES 「National Defense Story」*

_The main content of this program: The AERO-ENGINE is known as the "heart of aircraft". *Every major revolutionary progress in the Aviation field is closely related to the technological breakthrough and progress of the aero-engine.* After the founding of New China, the research and development of aero-engine in China was based on a blank alias the "ground zero". From the initial imitation, improvement, modification *to now can independently design and manufacture *high-performance aero-engine*, all the way through.*_

Published on 23 May 2021 (No Engsub)

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## samsara

*China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine*

By *Greg Waldron* | FlightGlobal - 21 May 2021

*The recent appearance of an operational Chengdu J-10C powered by a domestically produced engine marks a key moment for the single-engined type in the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).*

As with so much in Chinese airpower, much of the J-10’s history is shrouded in mystery. It is understood that the type, which originated in the 1980s, traces its lineage to the J-9, a canard/delta fighter that was abandoned in 1980. It is also believed that the J-10 benefited from the 1980s Israel Aircraft Industries Lavi programme.





Source: Chinese social media
The first clear image of an operational J-10C with a WS-10 engine

The fighter was regarded as a state secret until January 2007, when official media finally disclosed that it had entered PLAAF service. A few months later, in May 2007, Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms agency announced a $300 million deal to sell 100 Saturn AL-31 engines for China’s planned J-10 fleet. Then, in late 2008, the J-10A made its public debut at Airshow China in Zhuhai.

Since that time, the AL-31 has been the key powerplant for all variants of the J-10, from the original J-10As to the far more advanced J-10Cs. *Beijing always had plans for the J-10 to receive a local powerplant, the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang*, but the challenges involved in developing aircraft engines forced it to stick with the Russian powerplant longer than planned.

*Finally, in early May [2021], it became clear that a corner had been turned: a J-10C in an operational unit was spotted with the WS-10.*

As is typical for significant Chinese defence developments, there was *no official statement*. *Rather, a clear image of an operational J-10C with the WS-10 appeared on social media.* Beijing’s Global Times also covered a Chinese television report about the appearance of the WS-10-powered J-10C.

*Andreas Rupprecht is the author of Modern Chinese Warplanes*_, an authoritative guide to mainland airpower. He was among the first observers to highlight the new development. He feels the J-10C news is highly significant.

“This cannot be overrated, and in fact is a true milestone not only for the J-10, but even more for the WS-10 programme since it marks an end of the reliance on the Russian AL-31 for all three major PLAAF fighters – at least production examples – namely the J-10C, [Shenyang] J-16 and [Chengdu] J-20,” he says._

He notes that *a decade has passed* since the J-10B first flew with a WS-10, and that the engine was tested on a J-10A even earlier. Finally, after years of refinement, *it appears that the WS-10 is reliable and safe enough to power a single-engined fighter in active service.*

Mounted inside the J-10, the *WS-10 can be identified by a few subtle features*. One is that the afterburner nozzle petals are notably wider on the WS-10 than on the AL-31. The WS-10 also has a ring structure around the interior of the nozzle that is absent on the AL-31. In images at least, the sheen of the alloy used on the WS-10 nozzle is also somewhat lighter than for the Russian engine.





Source: Chinese social media - 解放军报
A WS-10 powered J-10C taking off

The engine’s appearance with a J-10C continues the long development history of the J-10 programme from the somewhat rudimentary J-10A.

The J-10A, which is flown by China’s August 1st aerobatic display team, can be distinguished from later variants by the rectangular intake that is not flush with the fuselage. The variant was produced until late 2014, when production switched to the J-10B. The J-10As, however, have received updates, including the ability to carry the PL-10 infrared-guided missile.

The J-10B, distinguished by a diverterless supersonic inlet, offers several improvements over the J-10A. These include an infrared search and track sensor, glass cockpit avionics, and a passive electronically scanned array radar. The J-10B was officially unveiled at 2016’s Airshow China, appearing in the static park with the PL-12 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. At the 2018 show, a J-10B testbed appeared in the flying display using a WS-10 thrust vector control engine.

*The most advanced J-10 variant is the J-10C**, which first appeared in a parade in August 2017.* While largely identical to the J-10B, it can be distinguished by its slightly different tail, which slopes down from a point – the top of the J-10B’s tail is square. The fighter is equipped with an active electronically scanned array radar [AESA] and an updated cockpit. It carries a broader array of weapons, *including the long-range PL-15 air-to-air missile*, which is believed to have a range greater than 107nm (200km).

The J-10 family also has a *two-seat trainer variant, the J-10S*, a derivative of the original J-10A.

Irrespective of whether international sales emerge, the *J-10 will be a key fighter in Chinese service through the 2020s*, adding force numbers and supporting larger types such as the *J-16 and J-20*. The arrival of WS-10-powered J-10Cs in operational units *marks a critical inflection point* in the programme’s development, *as well as the growing maturity and confidence of China’s aerospace sector.*









China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine


The recent appearance of an operational Chengdu J-10C powered with a domestically made engine marks a key moment for the single-engined type in the Peoples' Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).




www.flightglobal.com






Read also:

*PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports*

*By Liu Xuanzun | Global Times*
Published: May 13, 2021 09:18 PM

*A J-10C fighter jet equipped with a domestically developed WS-10 Taihang engine reportedly made its first public appearance* in a live-fire training session after entering service with the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force.

This could be an indication _that the engine is now technically stable, reliable and mature_, analysts said on Thursday.

One of the photos attached to the report showed a J-10C fighter jet seemingly equipped with a domestically developed *Taihang engine*, instead of previously used Russian-made AL-31, EASTDAY.com, a Shanghai-based news website, reported on Wednesday (12 May).

This is the public debut of the Taihang engine-equipped J-10C since it has entered PLA Air Force service, EASTDAY.com said.

*The J-10C is an aircraft that has been produced in large batches.* So if it is now using the Taihang engine, it could be an indication that this version has also been delivered to the PLA in numbers, Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Beijing-based Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Thursday.

In March 2020, a J-10C with a Taihang engine was spotted in a video released by the aircraft's developer, leading analysts to say at the time that the fighter jet was about to be commissioned.

Other PLA fighter jets like the *J-11B and J-16 *started to use Taihang engines *earlier*, with one of the reasons being that they are *twin-engined*, meaning less risk of accident, but the *J-10C only uses one engine, so the engine must be reliable*, according to analysts.

The original *J-10C* with a Russian engine made its *first public appearance at a military parade in late July 2017* _celebrating the 90th founding anniversary of the PLA_, and started combat alert missions in April 2018, thepaper.cn reported at the time.

*For the next step, China is expected to develop more advanced engines with larger thrust-to-weight ratios, longer service life, more efficient maintenance standards and intelligent control technologies to fit the needs of new-generation aircraft, Wang said.

China's most advanced stealth fighter jet, the J-20, is expected to be upgraded with 2D thrust vectoring nozzles for its engines*, said Li Gang, the pilot of the J-20's first flight, when asked about his expectations on the future development of the J-20's thrust vector control capability in an interview with Hong Kong-based Phoenix TV in April.









PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## dbc

samsara said:


> *Andreas Rupprecht is the author of Modern Chinese Warplanes*_, an authoritative guide to mainland airpower_



isn't this our very own @Deino ...damn he is a celebrity!

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## Polestar 2

LKJ86 said:


>


China aeroengine still got long way to go to match US. From 20:15 min to 20:25min, the representative of Chinese aeroengine say "China aeroengine has reach operation status but it still has shortcoming. Still it reach acceptable level for units." And most likely, we are talking about WS-10 engine which an engine level the western has long master 15 years ago.

From such sentence, you can sense some major shortcoming of our Chinese engine. Barely make it to be acceptance by units. I believe short long span maybe the major one.


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## redtom

Polestar 2 said:


> China aeroengine still got long way to go to match US. From 20:15 min to 20:25min, the representative of Chinese aeroengine say "China aeroengine has reach operation status but it still has shortcoming. Still it reach acceptable level for units." And most likely, we are talking about WS-10 engine which an engine level the western has long master 15 years ago.
> 
> From such sentence, you can sense some major shortcoming of our Chinese engine. Barely make it to be acceptance by units. I believe short long span maybe the major one.


I think he was talking about earlier models of the WS10. WS10 had problems of low reliability and short service life in its early days.However, the performance of WS10 and AL31 should be the same, otherwise it is not possible to use them together for testing.

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## samsara

dbc said:


> isn't this our very own @Deino ...damn he is a celebrity!


If you shall author some serious *BOOK* even more *BOOKS*, you might be somewhat a *celebrity* too  somewhere your name will be quoted


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## Polestar 2

redtom said:


> I think he was talking about earlier models of the WS10. WS10 had problems of low reliability and short service life in its early days.However, the performance of WS10 and AL31 should be the same, otherwise it is not possible to use them together for testing.


I don't think so. If the problem is solved. Why mention it again? Or he would have say earlier version gives problem.

Given the extremely slow progress of WS-10 Taihang engine. More likely problem still exist and they are barely accepted.


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## redtom

Polestar 2 said:


> I don't think so. If the problem is solved. Why mention it again? Or he would have say earlier version gives problem.
> 
> Given the extremely slow progress of WS-10 Taihang engine. More likely problem still exist and they are barely accepted.


Because this interview is introducing the J11B with WS10 installed, becoming the first fully domestically produced aircraft. This paragraph introduces the meaning of WS10.

That is, although WS10 still has some problems, it can at least replace AL31.For the first time, China has produced engines of the same level as Russia.Both the J11B and WZ10 were weapons that first flew at least 15 years ago. I think the confidentiality period of Chinese equipment is at least 15 years.Therefore, there is no mention of the TVC version of J10B, the version of J10C, and the enhanced version of J20.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Polestar 2 said:


> China aeroengine still got long way to go to match US. From 20:15 min to 20:25min, the representative of Chinese aeroengine say "China aeroengine has reach operation status but it still has shortcoming. Still it reach acceptable level for units." And most likely, we are talking about WS-10 engine which an engine level the western has long master 15 years ago.
> 
> From such sentence, you can sense some major shortcoming of our Chinese engine. Barely make it to be acceptance by units. I believe short long span maybe the major one.



Currently China is second best in the world after the US in fighter jet engine. WS-10B matches GE but still falls short of PW. PW engine in F-22 / 35 is monster compared to GE engine in F-15E. Should take about 5 more years to catch up to PW when WS-15 is ready.


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## Falcon26

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Currently China is second best in the world after the US in fighter jet engine. WS-10B matches GE but still falls short of PW. PW engine in F-22 / 35 is monster compared to GE engine in F-15E. Should take about 5 more years to catch up to PW when WS-15 is ready.



China is certainly not better than the UK & France in fighter engine technology. Not even close. It is also a stretch to say China has caught up to Russia. Again, not even close.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Falcon26 said:


> China is certainly not better than the UK & France in fighter engine technology. Not even close. It is also a stretch to say China has caught up to Russia. Again, not even close.



Europe can't make a fighter jet engine in the 30,000+ lb thrust category. They can make medium sized engines like EJ200 and M88, but not large sized engines like WS-10 / 15. Therefore I said China is second best engine maker after the US at the moment. Russian AL-31 / 41 engine is large sized, but not as reliable as WS-10 / 15. That's why China replaced AL-31 used in J-10 with WS-10.









PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Currently China is second best in the world after the US in fighter jet engine. WS-10B matches GE but still falls short of PW. PW engine in F-22 / 35 is monster compared to GE engine in F-15E. Should take about 5 more years to catch up to PW when WS-15 is ready.



Lol no. Russia and UK are still ahead.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> Lol no. Russia and UK are still ahead.



Nope. Russia is behind China in terms of engine technology and reliability. 









PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nope. Russia is behind China in terms of engine technology and reliability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn



Then why aren’t the Russians buying WS-10 for their flankers?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> Then why aren’t the Russians buying WS-10 for their flankers?



Because of national pride. Russia don't buy Long March 5 rocket from China even though their rocket can't get to Mars anymore. Russia don't buy aircraft carrier from China even though their only carrier is sitting rotting in a dry dock. Russia don't buy destroyer from China even though Russia can't build a single modern destroyer. After Cold War Russia's tech has really fallen behind.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nope. Russia is behind China in terms of engine technology and reliability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn




Forget this, you are wrong again. Only since Europe did not build a high thrust large size - and again, size is not everything - military turbofan does no mean it cannot.

Just look at the latest Rolls Royce civil engines.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Because of national pride. Russia don't buy Long March 5 rocket from China even though their rocket can't get to Mars anymore. Russia don't buy aircraft carrier from China even though their only carrier is sitting rotting in a dry dock. Russia don't buy destroyer from China even though Russia can't build a single modern destroyer. After Cold War Russia's tech has really fallen behind.



Yes, but that does not say anything about their engine technologies. I’m 100% sure their Izdele 30 engine for the Su-57 is way ahead the WS-10.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> Yes, but that does not say anything about their engine technologies. I’m 100% sure their Izdele 30 engine for the Su-57 is way ahead the WS-10.



Izdele 30 engine is still years away. I would say WS-15 be ready before Izdele 30 engine ever is. Time will tell. Russia does buy 5g from China BTW. Huawei is very popular telecom provider in Russia. Buying military hardware from China would draw public ire. Too obvious.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Izdele 30 engine is still years away. I would say WS-15 be ready before Izdele 30 engine ever is. Time will tell. Russia does buy 5g from China BTW. Huawei is very popular telecom provider in Russia. Buying military hardware from China would draw public ire. Too obvious.




But telecommunications technology has no meaning the aero-engine technology.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> But telecommunications technology has no meaning the aero-engine technology.



My point is Russian technology has fallen behind China post Cold War. To date only 1 Su-57 delivered to Russian air force. Meanwhile, WS-10B is phasing out AL-31 in J-10 left and right. It's safe to say the days of Russian exports to China is over. Meanwhile, Chinese exports to Russia is growing day by day.

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## foxhoundbis

Tai Hai Chen said:


> My point is Russian technology has fallen behind China post Cold War.


As it was said to you above, U are wrong.



Tai Hai Chen said:


> To date only *1 Su-57 delivered to Russian air force*.


It does prove nothing. It just does mean Russia's choice is somehow different than China. With their powerful radio photonic radars Russians are enough confident with their Mig-31, SU-35, and Mig-35. Moreover, the development of the new Mig-41 is going on. The Mig-41 with its new revolutionary jet engine could allow flying at hypersonic speeds. Furthermore, the US are stopping the F-35 program, and it is a matter to phase out the F-22 at the end of this decade. After the US intervention above Syrian skies, it does prove the US adventure of the V° generation airplane is a total failure. Tell me why Russia should follow the same wrong US path!
If you think Russia is lagging behind China U are wrong again.




Tai Hai Chen said:


> Meanwhile, WS-10B is phasing out AL-31 in J-10 left and right. It's safe to say the days of Russian exports to China is over. Meanwhile, Chinese exports to Russia is growing day by day.


This is another story. Indeed, nowadays it is reasonable to say that China could no longer rely on Russia's *jet engine export versions*. Thus China's indigenous technology is enough mature to equip PLA.
Nevertheless, the legacy of Soviet technology can allow Russia to see more ambitious programs. I think China with its actual industrial basis is enough secure to attack more challenges. China can afford it.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

foxhoundbis said:


> It does prove nothing. It just does mean Russia's choice is somehow different than China. With their powerful radio photonic radars Russians are enough confident with their Mig-31, SU-35, and Mig-35. Moreover, the development of the new Mig-41 is going on. The Mig-41 with its new revolutionary jet engine could allow flying at hypersonic speeds.



Russians do not admit their weakness. The only thing they talk about is fantasy. After Cold War Russia cannot build a single modern destroyer.


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## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Russians do not admit their weakness. The only thing they talk about is fantasy. After Cold War Russia cannot build a single modern destroyer.



Dude, your arrogance puts even the Jai Hind folks to shame.

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## Deino

*And now back to topic!*


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## F-6 enthusiast

Question : will this fighter be cleared for export now that it has been equipped with an indigenous engine ?


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## siegecrossbow

F-6 enthusiast said:


> Question : will this fighter be cleared for export now that it has been equipped with an indigenous engine ?



The J-10C has been cleared for export since 2018. Use of domestic engine just makes it more appealing and removes one additional hurdle.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> The J-10C has been cleared for export since 2018. Use of domestic engine just makes it more appealing and removes one additional hurdle.



WS-10B has state of the art digital control. It is more advanced than the legacy AL-31F it replaced.


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## GiantPanda

siegecrossbow said:


> Dude, your arrogance puts even the Jai Hind folks to shame.



He might actually be one of the Jai Hind folks.

He is not Chinese.


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## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10B has state of the art digital control. It is more advanced than the legacy AL-31F it replaced.



Yeah but Russia didn’t exactly stay still during the intervening time period.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> Yeah but Russia didn’t exactly stay still during the intervening time period.



Russia's best engine is the one powering Su-35S. While good, it is still a legacy design based on AL-31F which powers Su-27.

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## ZeEa5KPul

siegecrossbow said:


> Yeah but Russia didn’t exactly stay still during the intervening time period.


I don't want to keep belabouring the topic, but what advancement has Russia made recently relative to China in low-bypass turbofans? Both the izd 30 and WS-15 are in development hell and I expect the WS-15 to be produced in far greater numbers given the respective finances of Russia and China, even if the izd 30 technically appeared first.

It's certainly too early to say that China has comprehensively pulled ahead of Russia (especially that Russia has a civilian high-bypass turbofan), but it's wholly accurate to say that they're on roughly equal footing at present with the introduction of the WS-10 family and the WS-20.

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## siegecrossbow

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I don't want to keep belabouring the topic, but what advancement has Russia made recently relative to China in low-bypass turbofans? Both the izd 30 and WS-15 are in development hell and I expect the WS-15 to be produced in far greater numbers given the respective finances of Russia and China, even if the izd 30 technically appeared first.
> 
> It's certainly too early to say that China has comprehensively pulled ahead of Russia (especially that Russia has a civilian high-bypass turbofan), but it's wholly accurate to say that they're on roughly equal footing at present with the introduction of the WS-10 family and the WS-20.



Higher end thrust estimate for WS-10C is 145 KN, but this comes at a cost of higher by-pass ratio (which sacrifices high speed performance) and we don't know if it is the actual number since estimates range between 135 KN and 145 KN. We know next to nothing about how WS-15 is doing due to the opacity of PLA, so a comparison is hard to make.

What we do know is that when comparing J-16 and Su-35, Yankeesama claimed that the ideal PLAAF flanker would be an aircraft with J-16 avionics and missiles but Su-35 engines. I think that is as good an assessment of WS-10 and 117S as we are going to get.

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## ZeEa5KPul

siegecrossbow said:


> We know next to nothing about how WS-15 is doing due to the opacity of PLA, so a comparison is hard to make.


We know a fair bit more than "next to nothing." For one, we know that China has a lot more money than Russia and that given the low numbers of Su-57s Russia intends to procure, the izd 30 project isn't exactly swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck.

As for the WS-15 itself, I believe it's fairly settled that it's a ~180kN engine that should be in mass production in ~2025. Granted, I'd love to know a lot more, but such is the nature of the PLA watching game. We also know that China started from a far higher technological base when it initiated the WS-15 project than it did with the WS-10, both in absolute terms and relative to its competitors.

All told, I expect the WS-15 to be roughly comparable to the izd 30, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse. I expect the story to be very different with the next generation of engines installed on 6th gen fighters (adaptive cycle, ceramic matrix composite turbines, all the bells and whistles) around 2035 when China is in the first tier of engine makers, simply because of the vast disparity in funding and development pace between China and Russia.


siegecrossbow said:


> What we do know is that when comparing J-16 and Su-35, Yankeesama claimed that the ideal PLAAF flanker would be an aircraft with J-16 avionics and missiles but Su-35 engines. I think that is as good an assessment of WS-10 and 117S as we are going to get.


I believe that has more to do with thrust vectoring than anything else. The WS-10 has a thrust vectoring variant - I'm sure the PLAAF would have installed it if it felt it was worth the extra cost. They correctly concluded that thrust vectoring isn't worthwhile on 4.5 gen aircraft.

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## CAPRICORN-88

_It may take a long while before Russia IDZ-30 can be certified. 

Eversince the flameout on its SU-57 during an Airshow, there is no progress. Russia has yet to overcome the problem. 

Russia engineers dealing with the IDZ-30 are facing difficulties with the problem of extreme temperature and overheating in the internal chamber. 

I believe the SU-57 in service with RuAF at this moment are flying with AL-41F a tweaked up AL-31F. 

On the other hand based on leaks, the engineers building China WS-15 appeared to have master the art of adding Rhenium into superalloy of the crystal blades. Rumor has it that the internal chamber temperature has now reached 2000 C.  _

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## UKBengali

ZeEa5KPul said:


> We know a fair bit more than "next to nothing." For one, we know that China has a lot more money than Russia and that given the low numbers of Su-57s Russia intends to procure, the izd 30 project isn't exactly swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck.
> 
> As for the WS-15 itself, I believe it's fairly settled that it's a ~180kN engine that should be in mass production in ~2025. Granted, I'd love to know a lot more, but such is the nature of the PLA watching game. We also know that China started from a far higher technological base when it initiated the WS-15 project than it did with the WS-10, both in absolute terms and relative to its competitors.
> 
> All told, I expect the WS-15 to be roughly comparable to the izd 30, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse. I expect the story to be very different with the next generation of engines installed on 6th gen fighters (adaptive cycle, ceramic matrix composite turbines, all the bells and whistles) around 2035 when China is in the first tier of engine makers, simply because of the vast disparity in funding and development pace between China and Russia.
> 
> I believe that has more to do with thrust vectoring than anything else. The WS-10 has a thrust vectoring variant - I'm sure the PLAAF would have installed it if it felt it was worth the extra cost. They correctly concluded that thrust vectoring isn't worthwhile on 4.5 gen aircraft.






Roughly agree but the Chinese would still be somewhat behind the leaders US/UK and roughly comparable to the joint French/German effort in 6th gen fighter engines.


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## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Russia's best engine is the one powering Su-35S. While good, it is still a legacy design based on AL-31F which powers Su-27.


Do you have the technology to build variable cycle engines like Soviet did it for MFI (Mig-1.44) AlL-41???


Tai Hai Chen said:


> That's why China replaced AL-31 used in J-10 with WS-10.


China is not replacing Al-31F from all J-10A and S but WS-10 only for new built J-10C, to replace all Al-31F from all J-10 inventory is not economically viable for China

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

White and Green with M/S said:


> China is not replacing Al-31F from all J-10A and S but WS-10 only for new built J-10C, to replace all Al-31F from all J-10 inventory is not economically viable for China



A and B models are not in production.


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## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> A and B models are not in production.


But you're saying all which means ALL J-10 INVENTORY OF PLAAF lol, and it doesn't matter that A and B is not in production, if China want to replace all AL-31F on J-10A and B they can easily do it lol


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## Surya 1

*How China is trying to fix the biggest problem plaguing its fighter jets*
Benjamin Brimelow
June 7, 2021, 4:01 am





China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters

China's leaders regularly tout their country's fighter jets as symbols of military capability.
But China's fighter jets have long had a major shortcoming: a lack of quality engines.
China's defense industry has struggled with that flaw, but Beijing is working hard to fix it.
See more stories on Insider's business page.
Of all the fighters in China's arsenal, none are as important as the J-20.

The fifth-generation fighter also known as the "Mighty Dragon" is more than just a stealth fighter. It's an example that China, like the US, can build some of the best military technology in the world.
It has become a symbol for the Chinese Communist Party, shown proudly at military parades and mentioned repeatedly in Chinese defense publications.
After a brutal brawl with Indian troops on the countries' disputed border last year, China sent two J-20s to airbases in Xinjiang.

That deployment was too small to be of any real strategic significance, but the fact that China deployed its best fighter jet to a remote area in the Himalayas showed its seriousness. The J-20's deployment to China's Eastern Theatre Command is meant to send a similar message to Taiwan, Japan, and the US.
But the J-20, like all Chinese aircraft, has been hobbled by a lack of efficient and durable, high-performance jet engines.
That problem has plagued China's defense industry for a long time, and it's one Beijing is working hard to fix.
*A long-standing problem*




China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
China's difficulties with jet engines may be surprising given the country's massive and successful military buildup.
It's also no secret that China is skilled at reverse-engineering foreign technology to make domestic copies. Virtually every Chinese fighter jet is based on stolen or reverse-engineered designs.
There is precedent for reverse-engineering jet engines, but while China has plenty of access to Russian jet engines, Beijing's attempts to produce its own domestic designs have been largely unsuccessful.
One of its earliest versions of a domestically designed engine, the WS-10A, regularly broke down after just 30 hours of use.
There are many reasons for these failures. First, Russia is aware China has stolen its intellectual property before and is reluctant to sell Beijing its best engines. Moscow also doesn't sell standalone engines, instead including them on existing jets, which makes copying them difficult.
Second, reverse-engineering skill doesn't easily translate into proficiency at developing new jet engines from scratch. That requires technological know-how that takes years of intensive learning to develop and generations to perfect.
*The 'apex' of technological manufacturing*




China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
Perhaps most important, manufacturing jet engines is just extremely complicated.
"There are a few technologies that are really at the apex of technological manufacturing," and jet engines are one of them, Timothy Heath, a senior international and defense researcher at the Rand Corporation think tank, told Insider.
"These high-end technologies are so difficult to master that very few countries succeed. Many have failed," Heath added.
The main difficulty lies in the metallurgy and machining. A single engine on a civilian Boeing 747 airliner, for example, has at least 40,000 parts. Temperatures in that engine can reach as high as 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit, and its fan blades can spin well over 3,000 times a minute during an hours-long flight.
Blueprints for such an engine can be copied, but the secrets to producing and shaping metal parts that can withstand those temperatures and spin at such tremendous RPM over thousands of hours - not to mention external factors like wind resistance and corrosion - without breaking aren't easy to find.
Another disadvantage for China is that the entities tasked with developing these complex machines are state-owned enterprises.
Historically speaking, SOEs struggle with innovation and developing cutting-edge technology. The reliance on reverse-engineering shows that this is the case with China, though there are certainly exceptions.
"They're better at just reverse-engineering simpler components and building simpler things," Heath said. "All this requires a level of expertise and competence that SOEs just often are not very good at. You have to recognize the limitations of the SOEs in China when it comes to innovation."
*'Crucial technology cannot be bought'*




China's J-20 stealth fighter at an air show in 2016. REUTERS/Stringer
China is more than aware of its engine problems.
Liu Daxiang, the deputy director of the science and technology committee at the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, last year called the development of domestic jet engines "a serious and urgent political task" and said China was facing an "unprecedented challenge."
"The established countries in aviation have become more strict with us when it comes to technology access," Liu said, adding that recent US efforts to restrict opportunities for the Chinese telecommunications firm Huawei "tells us that crucial technology cannot be bought, even if you spend big."
In an attempt to get direct access to the secrets of jet manufacturing, the Chinese state-owned aviation firm Skyrizon, which has been blacklisted by the US government, tried to acquire a controlling stake in Motor Sich, a Ukrainian company that is one of the largest producers of engines for helicopters, jets, and missiles.
But the Ukrainian government this year stopped the deal, most likely because of pressure from the US.
Despite the setbacks, China has made some progress. Modern variants of the WS-10 have progressed enough that some Chinese jets are being fitted with them, including numerous J-20s.
Chinese sources have said that the WS-15, an engine designed specifically for the J-20, "may be finished within one or two years" and that once those engines are installed, the J-20 will be "on a par" with the US's fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.
*Ballpoint pens, microchips, and jet engines*




Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. Reuters
But many challenges remain. The complexity of the materials and metallurgy process, the costs of acquiring and maintaining the scientific and machining expertise, and the reluctance of other countries to assist China for fear of intellectual-property theft are but a few of them.
China faces a similar predicament in manufacturing high-end microchips and semiconductors. Despite hundreds of millions of dollars and major efforts by state-owned enterprises, China has not been able to create its own computer chips.
"It's just that some of these technologies are extremely difficult to do, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it - if you don't have the right combination of people, technologies, and skills, it's just not going to come together so easily," Heath said.
But China doesn't give up easily. In 2017, a Chinese state-owned firm announced plans to mass-produce ballpoint pen tips for the first time. China already made billions of pens, but only after a five-year, multimillion-dollar effort did it develop the technology to make tips for those pens domestically.
"All these elements can be reached only through long-term investment and incremental development," a Chinese researcher said at the time.









How China is trying to fix the biggest problem plaguing its fighter jets


China touts its fighter jets as symbols of military capability, but those jets have long had a major shortcoming: a lack of quality engines.




news.yahoo.com


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

With the introduction of WS-10B on J-10C Chinese engine development has caught up to 2000s level US engine. WS-10B is on par with engines used in F-15E/K/SG. I give it about 5 to 10 years and WS-15 will be on par with engines used in F-22 and F-35. 









China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine


The recent appearance of an operational Chengdu J-10C powered with a domestically made engine marks a key moment for the single-engined type in the Peoples' Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).




www.flightglobal.com

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## Surya 1

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Well, it's a shame India gave up moon lander, Mars lander, domestic Kaveri light jet engine to please the American masters when Modi joined quad in 2014 to fight China. At least China has a vibrant domestic high tech industry whereas India had to tear up its own domestic high tech industry to please the Americans the way Canada did.



Do you have the issue that we did not went your Russian master fof Engine? Inspite of earmsgking 16 bn USD for dngine, WS 10 can't run for more than 30 hours.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Surya 1 said:


> Do you have the issue that we did not went your Russian master fof Engine? Inspite of earmsgking 16 bn USD for dngine, WS 10 can't run for more than 30 hours.



WS-10B is superior to AL-31F previously used to power J-10C. WS-10B has more power 30,000 lb compared to 27,000 lb, and computerized fuel control. India Su-30MKI don't have engine as powerful as WS-10B.


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## Surya 1

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10B runs more than 10,000 hours. It is certified for use on J-10C since last year.


Article states that China is unable to fix the problem. 50 cdnt army say that they have done it.


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## Surya 1

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10B is superior to AL-31F previously used to power J-10C. WS-10B has more power 30,000 lb compared to 27,000 lb, and computerized fuel control. India Su-30MKI don't have engine as powerful as WS-10B.


WS 10 is superior to Al31F, J20 is superior to F22, HQ 9 is superior yo S400 yet China buys Su35, S400 etc.


Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10A was failure. Could only do 30 hours reliably. WS-10B could do more than 10,000 hours reliably. WS-10B is major success of China's domestic jet engine industry. WS-10B was certified to power J-10C in 2019.



From 30 hours to 10000 hours. 33300% rise straight way. So far as farting from mouth is concern, nobody can beat 50 cent army.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10A was failure. Could only do 30 hours reliably. WS-10B could do more than 10,000 hours reliably. WS-10B is major success of China's domestic jet engine industry. WS-10B was certified to power J-10C in 2019.




Can you please STOP posting unsubstantial BS? Either prove it or leave it, but a claim of having "more than 10,000 hours reliably" cannot be accepted only since you post it.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Surya 1 said:


> Article states that China is unable to fix the problem. 50 cdnt army say that they have done it.



WS-10B is vastly improved over WS-10A. WS-10B is certified on J-10C. Replaces AL-31F.


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## denel

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10B is vastly improved over WS-10A. WS-10B is certified on J-10C. Replaces AL-31F.


then prove it using induction. 

Man you have zero clue on anything and just keep pushing the outlandishing claims all over the show.

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## denel

Deino said:


> Can you please STOP posting unsubstantial BS? Either prove it or leave it, but a claim of having "more than 10,000 hours reliably" cannot be accepted only since you post it.


he needs to see a shrink; - i am serious - he has serious mental problems. We have asked moderators to clamp him down from covid forum permanently. between getting people killed, this kid needs to have his keyboard taken away.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> WS-10B is vastly improved over WS-10A. WS-10B is certified on J-10C. Replaces AL-31F.




Yes, but by giving such data you are doing nothing but speculating. There is NO such an increase in reliability possible nor do we have any official confirmation for such specifications. So either prove it or stop it!  


denel said:


> he needs to see a shrink; - i am serious - he has serious mental problems. We have asked moderators to clamp him down from covid forum permanently. between getting people killed, this kid needs to have his keyboard taken away.




I'll try my very best but since I'm limited to moderate only in the Chinese section I cannot do much

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Yes, but by giving such data you are doing nothing but speculating. There is NO such an increase in reliability possible nor do we have any official confirmation for such specifications. So either prove it or stop it!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try my very best but since I'm limited to moderate only in the Chinese section I cannot do much



Lol so you didn't ban him. Some Most of the stuff he posts make the Jai Hind folks blush.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Lol so you didn't ban him. Some Most of the stuff he posts make the Jai Hind folks blush.




Let's say it this way ... I "contributed" a bit.

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## denel

siegecrossbow said:


> Lol so you didn't ban him. Some Most of the stuff he posts make the Jai Hind folks blush.


He has become a walking public pandemic contributor from his fake theories. People can die from his stupidity. Banning him permanently is the right way from being a danger to himself and others; a permanent ban especially from Covid forum.

We are doing his mental health a favour by doing this; and avoiding deaths in this process.

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## Deino

denel said:


> He has become a walking public pandemic contributor from his fake theories. People can die from his stupidity. Banning him permanently is the right way from being a danger to himself and others; a permanent ban especially from Covid forum.
> 
> We are doing his mental health a favour by doing this; and avoiding deaths in this process.




Yes, but I cannot ban him, I can only give warnings and as long as most of his FAKED BS-threads are posted outside the PLA-section I cannot do anything. All you can do however is to report each of his BS.

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## casual

Deino said:


> Yes, but I cannot ban him, I can only give warnings and as long as most of his FAKED BS-threads are posted outside the PLA-section I cannot do anything. All you can do however is to report each of his BS.


Getting way off topic here.


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## serenity

For the record, 30 hour flight time between maintenance for WS-10 was for WS-10 engine not even WS-10A. Before any unit was used for PLAAF fighters. This 30 hour between maintenance is from before 2010.

After WS-10A introduced, this time between maintenance was much higher to acceptable hours. Certainly not going to be GE or PW engine level like F110 but still there were redesigns from 2010 onwards.

Since introducing WS-10A and newer WS-10 engines after the A model, it has been on service with J-11B for now over 10 years. It has recently been used in service with J-10C after it has 10 years of proven record and PLAAF is satisfied with its reliability for single engine fighter.

Now the average time between maintenance is of course much more than 30 hours. 30 hours was prototype WS-10 engines and before 2010. Already more than 10 years since then.

F110 average time between maintenance is 600 to 700 hours. Its prototype is not shown.

So basically they were talking about WS-10 first model prototype and pretending it is the same for WS-10A/B/G/x that has been developed and made more than 10 years later.

If WS-10 ever had only 30 hours flight time before maintenance, it would not be used by PLAAF. China would need to spend $10 trillion US dollars just to buy engines. So you think each engine only lasts a bit longer than one day before it needs long overhaul and costly maintenance and new parts? Sometimes people are seriously too stupid to think.

The truth is during development and when the initial prototypes finishes, the testing revealed serious material issue which limit use to 30 hours before overhaul required. This problem was then overcome to I remember was around 200 to 300 hours which is still only half the American equivalent and around same as Russia's level. Then the third development cycle for WS-10 which is current one basically, raised it a little further.

It can basically choose higher power or longer life for the engineers and the PLAAF decided whatever it selected over the other. The rumors after 300 hour between overhaul was that it eventually surpassed Russian Al-31 timing but with slightly lowered power. Basically now, it has not issue to approach 500 hours or more.

If this isn't true, PLAAF would spend many fortunes just to keep more than 200 fighters currently been using the WS-10 some for 10 years now. It wouldn't also want WS-10 on J-10C.

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## LKJ86

J-20 equipped with WS-10 engines











Via CCTV 7

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## LKJ86

Y-20 equipped with WS-20 engines




Via @Oneninety from Weibo

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## LKJ86

JL-4A/1




Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

AES100










Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## MajesticPug

serenity said:


> For the record, 30 hour flight time between maintenance for WS-10 was for WS-10 engine not even WS-10A. Before any unit was used for PLAAF fighters. This 30 hour between maintenance is from before 2010.
> 
> After WS-10A introduced, this time between maintenance was much higher to acceptable hours. Certainly not going to be GE or PW engine level like F110 but still there were redesigns from 2010 onwards.
> 
> Since introducing WS-10A and newer WS-10 engines after the A model, it has been on service with J-11B for now over 10 years. It has recently been used in service with J-10C after it has 10 years of proven record and PLAAF is satisfied with its reliability for single engine fighter.
> 
> Now the average time between maintenance is of course much more than 30 hours. 30 hours was prototype WS-10 engines and before 2010. Already more than 10 years since then.
> 
> F110 average time between maintenance is 600 to 700 hours. Its prototype is not shown.
> 
> So basically they were talking about WS-10 first model prototype and pretending it is the same for WS-10A/B/G/x that has been developed and made more than 10 years later.
> 
> If WS-10 ever had only 30 hours flight time before maintenance, it would not be used by PLAAF. China would need to spend $10 trillion US dollars just to buy engines. So you think each engine only lasts a bit longer than one day before it needs long overhaul and costly maintenance and new parts? Sometimes people are seriously too stupid to think.
> 
> The truth is during development and when the initial prototypes finishes, the testing revealed serious material issue which limit use to 30 hours before overhaul required. This problem was then overcome to I remember was around 200 to 300 hours which is still only half the American equivalent and around same as Russia's level. Then the third development cycle for WS-10 which is current one basically, raised it a little further.
> 
> It can basically choose higher power or longer life for the engineers and the PLAAF decided whatever it selected over the other. The rumors after 300 hour between overhaul was that it eventually surpassed Russian Al-31 timing but with slightly lowered power. Basically now, it has not issue to approach 500 hours or more.
> 
> If this isn't true, PLAAF would spend many fortunes just to keep more than 200 fighters currently been using the WS-10 some for 10 years now. It wouldn't also want WS-10 on J-10C.



People who said WS-10 has only 30 hours MTBF were Indians and the Paks who want F16's that America will not sell to them. The number makes no common sense.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航发 from Weixin

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## CIA Mole

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 764099
> View attachment 764100
> View attachment 764102
> View attachment 764103
> View attachment 764104
> View attachment 764105
> View attachment 764106
> View attachment 764107
> View attachment 764108
> View attachment 764109
> View attachment 764110
> View attachment 764111
> 
> Via @中国航发 from Weixin



Is there a chinese engine in development to replace al 225?


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## CAPRICORN-88

CIA Mole said:


> Is there a chinese engine in development to replace al 225?



_Are you refering to Ivchenko AI-25 TLK which is produced under license in China?

The original Karakorum K-8 was fitted with Garrett TFE731-727A turbofan engine._

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## CIA Mole

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _Are you refering to Ivchenko AI-25 TLK which is produced under license in China?
> 
> The original Karakorum K-8 was fitted with Garrett TFE731-727A turbofan engine._


i meant for l15 trainers


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## CAPRICORN-88

CIA Mole said:


> i meant for l15 trainers



_Hongdu J-10 or L-15 is fitted with China made Minshan engines. 
Minshan which was on display at previous exhibitions is basically a modified low bypass AL-222-25 turbofan built under licence in China. 

Beijing's Skyvision Aviation has already paid and acquired Sich-Motor. _

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## CIA Mole

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _Hongdu J-10 or L-15 is fitted with China made Minshan engines.
> Minshan which was on display at previous exhibitions is basically a modified low bypass AL-222-25 turbofan built under licence in China.
> 
> Beijing's Skyvision Aviation has already paid and acquired Sich-Motor. _



the acquisition broke down,

i thought china buys those al222 engines directly from motor sich?



https://inf.news/en/military/200f46158d327bc0be73e55a14571d4b.html

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## CAPRICORN-88

CIA Mole said:


> the acquisition broke down,
> 
> i thought china buys those al222 engines directly from motor sich?
> 
> 
> 
> https://inf.news/en/military/200f46158d327bc0be73e55a14571d4b.html



_The acquisition was successful but it was later *blocked by Ukrainian Government* at the behest of USA. This was a trade-off between Ukraine and USA to secure USA objection to Nordstream 2. 
Now that Biden is no longer objecting to Nordstream 2, Ukraine may have to renegotiate otherwise Motor Sich may be forced to close down completely. 

BTW Sich Motor could not provide the engines even if she wished to as that division and most of the key technical personnels including their families were already transfered to Chengdu, China by Skyrizon Aviation. 
They even started a Ukrainian village there. 

So it is all done in vain by Ukrainian Government. 
Skyrizon did not dismantled any machinery of Motor Sich as they were obsolete and outdated. 
They were more interested In the key personnels and technologies at Motor Sich. 
So what Skyrizon basically lost was just the brand name. 

Back in 2017, a joint venture by skyrizon and PJMS in China delivered its first assembled engine using Motor Sich technology. 
Today I believe Skyrizon is now manufacturing this engine completely in China. 

IMO in time the newly developed Minshan turbofans will be replacing AL-222 25 as JL-10 main powerplant. _

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## mdmm

What is Ukraine Sich technology in China ?
What is meant by "" Hongdu J-10 or L-15 is fitted with China made Minshan engines.""??
Can any one please ellaborate which Engines are fitted and working fine in following Chinese jet fighters ,
J-20
J-10 C
J-31
J-35 ??
JF-17 Block3

Does any Chinese jet fighter are still working with Russian Al-31 engine , please.


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## Deino

mdmm said:


> What is Ukraine Sich technology in China ?
> What is meant by "" Hongdu J-10 or L-15 is fitted with China made Minshan engines.""??
> Can any one please ellaborate which Engines are fitted and working fine in following Chinese jet fighters ,
> J-20 *- until 09/2019 only AL-31FN or FM ... since then WS-10C*
> J-10 C *- until 09/2019 only AL-31FN ... since then WS-10B*
> J-31 *- there i no J-31, only FC-31 and both use allegedly RD-93 and/or WS-13. Some say the WS-13E.*
> J-35 ??* - there is no J-35 yet, but it is expected to use WS-13 as interim and later the WS-19.*
> JF-17 Block3 *- ... unconfirmed. For sure a RD-93, some say the RD-93MA later in PAF service or the WS-13. *
> 
> Does any Chinese jet fighter are still working with Russian Al-31 engine , please. *- yes, all J-10A/AS/B and J-10C up to mid-batch 04, all J-11/J-11A and Batch 01 J-11B as well as all J-15s and as above, all J-20s until 09/2019.*




See my answer in blue added above.

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## Deino

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _Hongdu J-10 or L-15 is fitted with China made Minshan engines.
> Minshan which was on display at previous exhibitions is basically a modified low bypass AL-222-25 turbofan built under licence in China.
> 
> Beijing's Skyvision Aviation has already paid and acquired Sich-Motor. _



No, ... NO ´J-10 is fitted with the Minshan and even lesser with any engine from Motor-Sich. No engine from them fits the J-10.

And anyway the Minshan is a Mystery similar to the WS-13 or WP-14 ... often shown, even more often repoarted and claimed but barely an information and even lesser facts.


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> No, ... NO ´J-10 is fitted with the Minshan and even lesser with any engine from Motor-Sich. No engine from them fits the J-10.
> 
> And anyway the Minshan is a Mystery similar to the WS-13 or WP-14 ... often shown, even more often repoarted and claimed but barely an information and even lesser facts.


My apology. 
Typo error...
Hongdu JL-10 or L-15

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## mdmm

Deino said:


> See my answer in blue added above.


*****************************************************************
Thank you very much sir Deino, for a comprehensive, informative answer.

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## aliaselin



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## Shotgunner51



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## siegecrossbow

Shotgunner51 said:


> View attachment 801447



Judging by the flame marking on the pedals I think this is the genuine article, now on static display.

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## Shotgunner51

siegecrossbow said:


> Judging by the flame marking on the pedals I think this is the genuine article, now on static display.


Perhaps it's the one of those retired from J-10B after demo in Zhuhai 2018

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## lcloo

It is not the same engine installed on J10B in Zhuhai 2018. May be a different unit used on ground static test. The rivet patterns are different.

Below are from Zhuhai 2018 J10B demostrator.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> It is not the same engine installed on J10B in Zhuhai 2018. May be a different unit used on ground static test. The rivet patterns are different.
> 
> Below are from Zhuhai 2018 J10B demostrator.
> View attachment 801525
> View attachment 801526




Indeed, it is not but I think it was mentioned somewhere, it is not a real engine nor a real J-10B, it is a mock-up only namely the one we seen already in an exhibition last year (I think)

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## Polestar 2

Deino said:


> Indeed, it is not but I think it was mentioned somewhere, it is not a real engine nor a real J-10B, it is a mock-up only namely the one we seen already in an exhibition last year (I think)
> 
> View attachment 801547
> View attachment 801548
> View attachment 801549


Come on, it just a mock up with realistic weathering to make it look real.


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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> Come on, it just a mock up with realistic weathering to make it look real.




Just check the main landing gear ...


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

*China's WS-15 turbofan engine undergoes tests, shows improved performance*

By 
Liu Xuanzun
Published: Mar 14, 2022 09:32 PM





J-20 jets, China's most advanced stealth fighter jets powered by domestic engines, made their debut at the opening ceremony of the China Airshow 2021 in the host city Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province on Tuesday.Photo: Cui Meng/GT

The WS-15, China's next generation turbofan engine expected to be used on the J-20 stealth fighter jet to greatly improve its performance, has undergone several tests that saw the engine further improved and optimized, the state broadcaster recently reported.

After the large scale equipment of the WS-10, China's first independently developed high performance, high thrust turbofan engine with afterburner, on Chinese fighter jets including the J-10, the J-11 and the J-20 since 2016, the country's next generation turbofan engine, the WS-15, has undergone several tests, China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Sunday.

Developed for fifth-generation heavy and medium fighter jets, the WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and is capable of thrust vector control, CCTV said.

With the tests, all parameters of the WS-15 have been further improved and optimized, the CCTV reported, noting that the more powerful WS-15 is expected to replace the WS-10 for the J-20 in the future, so the J-20 will finally become its ultimate form.

A distinguishing characteristic of a next generation high thrust engine for combat aircraft is that it should have a thrust of between 15 to 18 tons, military expert Wang Mingliang said on CCTV.

When the J-20 gets the new engines, it will become a more powerful platform, thanks to boosted *super-cruise capability and super-maneuverability*, in addition to its already excellent stealth capability and situational awareness, the expert said.

China has already displayed a *thrust vector control-capable engine in flight by a J-10 fighter jet at Airshow China 2018. So such technology will not be a problem for China, and the increase in the thrust-to-weight ratio and the reduction in fuel consumption *has always been a goal in engine development, Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times.

The technology gap between China and leading countries like the US in terms of jet engine development had been significantly narrowed in recent years, said Wang Ya'nan.

The reason behind this surge is China's accumulation of technologies and theories over the past decade, the establishment of the Aero Engine Corporation of China, and the breakthrough in key materials like those for single crystal blades, said Wang Mingliang.

Besides the WS-15, the WS-20, China's next generation turbofan engine with a high bypass ratio, is believed to be undergoing tests on the Y-20 large transport aircraft, CCTV reported, citing a photo recently circulating on the internet.

China has been testing two new types of domestically developed engines for the Y-20, the aircraft's chief designer Tang Changhong said at the Airshow China 2021.

In addition to larger engines for fighter jets and transport planes, China is also developing smaller engines, which is a very practical move as such engines would support smaller aircraft such as drones and cruise missiles, said Wang Mingliang.

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## Deino

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> *China's WS-15 turbofan engine undergoes tests, shows improved performance*
> 
> By
> Liu Xuanzun
> Published: Mar 14, 2022 09:32 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 jets, China's most advanced stealth fighter jets powered by domestic engines, made their debut at the opening ceremony of the China Airshow 2021 in the host city Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province on Tuesday.Photo: Cui Meng/GT
> 
> The WS-15, China's next generation turbofan engine expected to be used on the J-20 stealth fighter jet to greatly improve its performance, has undergone several tests that saw the engine further improved and optimized, the state broadcaster recently reported.
> 
> After the large scale equipment of the WS-10, China's first independently developed high performance, high thrust turbofan engine with afterburner, on Chinese fighter jets including the J-10, the J-11 and the J-20 since 2016, the country's next generation turbofan engine, the WS-15, has undergone several tests, China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Sunday.
> 
> Developed for fifth-generation heavy and medium fighter jets, the WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and is capable of thrust vector control, CCTV said.
> 
> With the tests, all parameters of the WS-15 have been further improved and optimized, the CCTV reported, noting that the more powerful WS-15 is expected to replace the WS-10 for the J-20 in the future, so the J-20 will finally become its ultimate form.
> 
> A distinguishing characteristic of a next generation high thrust engine for combat aircraft is that it should have a thrust of between 15 to 18 tons, military expert Wang Mingliang said on CCTV.
> 
> When the J-20 gets the new engines, it will become a more powerful platform, thanks to boosted *super-cruise capability and super-maneuverability*, in addition to its already excellent stealth capability and situational awareness, the expert said.
> 
> China has already displayed a *thrust vector control-capable engine in flight by a J-10 fighter jet at Airshow China 2018. So such technology will not be a problem for China, and the increase in the thrust-to-weight ratio and the reduction in fuel consumption *has always been a goal in engine development, Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times.
> 
> The technology gap between China and leading countries like the US in terms of jet engine development had been significantly narrowed in recent years, said Wang Ya'nan.
> 
> The reason behind this surge is China's accumulation of technologies and theories over the past decade, the establishment of the Aero Engine Corporation of China, and the breakthrough in key materials like those for single crystal blades, said Wang Mingliang.
> 
> Besides the WS-15, the WS-20, China's next generation turbofan engine with a high bypass ratio, is believed to be undergoing tests on the Y-20 large transport aircraft, CCTV reported, citing a photo recently circulating on the internet.
> 
> China has been testing two new types of domestically developed engines for the Y-20, the aircraft's chief designer Tang Changhong said at the Airshow China 2021.
> 
> In addition to larger engines for fighter jets and transport planes, China is also developing smaller engines, which is a very practical move as such engines would support smaller aircraft such as drones and cruise missiles, said Wang Mingliang.




Me in confusion again 

I'm still confused on who's the "maker" of the WS-15: some say it is developed by the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute and manufactured by the Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation and others say it is built at Shenyang Liming.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> Me in confusion again
> 
> I'm still confused on who's the "maker" of the WS-15: some say it is developed by the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute and manufactured by the Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation and others say it is built at Shenyang Liming.



You are not alone. 

There will always be a missing piece in the puzzle.

China military developments have always been shroud in secrecy.

Although and IMO I always believe it is being built and tested at a new facility by Xi'an Aero Engine Corporation as stated by you.

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

WS-10








Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Grandy

From Superalloy To Single Crystal Alloy + Compound Cooling, Look At The Development Of Aero-Engine Blades.
​As we all know, the aero engine is the core of the entire aircraft, and its performance directly determines the overall performance of the aircraft, so the aero engine is also known as the "jewel in the crown of industry". In aero gas turbine engines, the worst working environment and the most complex stress are the turbine blades. At the same time, the turbine blades are also the key to achieving high performance under the condition of small size and light weight. Therefore, if the aero engine is the core of the entire aircraft, then the turbine blades are the "core in the core" of the entire aircraft!





F-20 engine tail nozzle.

For aero engines, an increase in temperature will bring about an increase in thermal efficiency. Relevant studies have shown that the temperature in front of the aero engine turbine will be 55℃ every time it is prompted, and other conditions will remain unchanged. Under the circumstances, the thrust of the engine can be increased by about 10%. Therefore, as high-performance aeroengines continue to pursue large thrust and high thrust-to-weight ratio, increasing the temperature of the front wheel of the turbo has naturally become the direction of vigorous development of aeroengines, and the increase in the temperature of the front of the turbine is based on the performance of the turbine blade material at high temperature ( Based on the improvement of endurance strength, creep strength, toughness, thermal fatigue resistance, etc.).





Anatomy of a turbofan engine with a large bypass ratio.

However, in the process of continuous development of aero engines, the temperature of the front wheel of the turbine develops much faster than the bearing temperature of the turbine blade material. In terms of technical level, the bearing temperature of a “bare” turbine blade in an aero engine is only about 1100°C at most, while the operating temperature of the blade has reached 1700°C. The difference between the two can be such a big difference. The development of various cooling technologies for turbine blades. 





The application of superalloy ushered in the first revolution in turbine blades

The first revolution of aero-engine turbine blades began with the emergence of superalloys. The first superalloy was developed in the 1940s. Afterwards, the superalloy replaced the previous high-temperature stainless steel with its excellent high-temperature performance. It was applied to the first generation of aviation gas turbine engine in the 1950s,At this time, the operating temperature of the superalloy turbine blades has reached 800°C. Since the bearing temperature is not much different from the operating temperature, this blade has not yet used cooling technology.





Directional alloy greatly increases the blade bearing temperature

By the 1960s, The application of vacuum casting technology can be said to be one of the most significant events in the history of the development of superalloys. Vacuum casting greatly reduces the content of impurities that are harmful to the performance of superalloys and improves the purity of the alloys. Later, in order to solve the "plastic trough" problem in the alloy, directional solidification alloy technology was also invented. Because directional solidification makes the crystalline direction of the alloy parallel to the direction of the main stress axis of the blade, and basically eliminates the transverse crystal perpendicular to the stress axis. It can improve the plasticity and thermal fatigue properties of the alloy.





Turbine blade performance comparison under different processes.

At this time, the bearing temperature of turbine blades made of directional casting superalloy has reached 1000℃ (approximately 1273K). With an increase of about 200°C, combined with simple blade air cooling technology, the temperature in front of the turbine of the second-generation aero gas turbine engine has reached 1300K-1500K, and the performance of the aero engine has been further improved.


The first generation of single crystal alloy + film cooling technology

in the 1970s , The alloying theory and heat treatment process have been breakthroughs. The process at this time can completely eliminate the grain boundary on the basis of the directionally solidified alloy. The single crystal alloy turbine blade manufacturing technology was born, and it also set off a second revolution in the materials used for turbine blades. , The thermal performance of alloy blades has been further improved (about 30℃), and the bearing temperature of turbine blades has reached 1050℃ (about 1323K).






However, the requirements of the third-generation aero gas turbine engine also further increase the working temperature and load-bearing temperature of the turbine blades.Since then, the cooling technology of turbine blades has been paid more attention. By designing cooling channels and cooling holes on the blades, the "low temperature gas" of several hundred degrees Celsius in the compressor is introduced into the turbine blades, and then sprayed from the cooling holes on the blade surface to form a gas film, which has a relatively high temperature isolation. The low turbine blades and the high temperature gas in the working environment are called film cooling technology.





Close-up of the cooling holes on the engine blade.

The application of film cooling technology enables the working temperature of the turbine blade to be much higher than the bearing temperature of the blade material itself. Therefore, under the comprehensive application of the first-generation single-crystal alloy + single-channel film cooling technology, the third-generation aeroengine's temperature in front of the turbine reached 1680K-1750K, and turbofan engines with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 8 began to appear (currently turbofan-10 Just be in this generation).


Second-generation single crystal alloy + composite cooling technology

By the end of the last century, the fifth The generation fighter has put forward the requirement of "supersonic cruise", and the thrust-to-weight ratio and thrust of the engine need to be further improved. The second-generation single crystal alloy further improves the microstructure stability of turbine blade alloys by increasing muscle rhenium, cobalt, molybdenum and other elements, and achieves a good balance between endurance strength and oxidation and corrosion resistance, so that its bearing temperature is once again It has increased by about 30°C, reaching a level of 1100°C (about 1370K).





The development path of materials used in turbine blades.

At this time, it has become difficult to increase the working temperature of turbine blades by improving material performance, and single-channel film cooling technology has begun to be insufficient. A composite cooling technology with simultaneous application of a variety of cooling technologies (convection, impingement, film structure, divergent cooling, etc.) has been developed. At present, through compound cooling of the turbine blades, the working temperature of the blades (temperature before the turbine) can be about 400K higher than the bearing temperature, reaching 1850K-1980K.





The development of blade cooling technology.

The second-generation single crystal alloy combined with compound cooling technology for turbine blades,It has been applied to the current mainstream fourth-generation aero engine (mainly represented by F-119 and EJ-200 engines).


Third-generation single crystal alloy/ceramic matrix composite material + multi-channel double-layer hollow wall cooling technology
_!--H2--21!-- H2--H2--

At present, the research and development of the sixth-generation fighter has been put on the agenda, but there is still relatively little information about the fifth-generation gas turbine engine. According to the breakthroughs made in related technologies in recent years, further optimization of alloy elements The third-generation single crystal alloys and new ceramic-based composite materials derived from the composition will become the first choice materials for the fifth-generation gas turbine engine blades. Among them, the improvement of ceramic-based composite materials is more obvious (the bearing temperature can reach 1200℃, and the weight is only It is 1/3 of the nickel-based single crystal alloy), but the technology is not yet mature.





The development of turbine blades of each generation of engines.

In the next generation of turbine blade cooling technology, the cooling channels inside the turbine blades will be further increased to make the scattering of the blades more uniform; adopt double-layer hollow wall cooling technology , Adding a hollow structure to the double-layer splint of the turbine blade can further improve the cooling efficiency. As the research on multi-channel double-layer hollow wall cooling technology is relatively complicated, there are relatively few domestic researches in this area at present.





Summary and prospects for the development of aero-engine turbine blades.

In general, the manufacturing and optimization of aero-engine turbine blade materials is an extremely complex process that requires a lot of experimentation to find the optimal or near optimal The optimization of the turbine blade cooling scheme is based on the design and manufacturing. Every time the cooling technology optimization of the turbine blade is also a huge test for the blade design and manufacturing. Therefore, it is no exaggeration to say that the price of a single crystal blade exceeds the same weight of gold.





Ceramic-based composite turbine blades exhibited by GE

From the perspective of the development of aero-engine turbine blades, the development of more high-temperature-resistant turbine blades is the key to improving engine performance. And after decades of development,The potential of single crystal alloy blades seems to have been tapped out. If you want to further improve the performance of aero-engines, looking for new directions has become a choice that has to be faced in the development of turbine blades; although there is still a lot of optimization in the cooling technology of aero-engine turbine blades Space, but it will undoubtedly further increase the difficulty of blade processing and manufacturing.
​

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## LKJ86

WS-10




Void @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566247728388231169

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566247892666425346

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## Figaro

Are there any updates on when Y-20s will be produced with WS-20s? It doesn't make sense to me that J-20, J-10, Chinese flankers have all switched to the WS-10 in mass production but the Y-20 is still relying on the old low bypass WS-18s. Especially with the WS-15 and WS-10 progress, it doesn't make sense why this hasn't occurred yet.


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## LKJ86

Via @DS木淫系宜腹 from Weibo

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## Iron Shrappenel

LKJ86 said:


> WS-10
> View attachment 856467
> View attachment 856468
> 
> Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


Twerk baby Twerk

Hi guys, Any info on the WS-13 ?


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## aliaselin

I guess WS-15 and WJ-10 will enter service at this year or the next year

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## Deino

And this is based on what?


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## Polestar 2

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Twerk baby Twerk
> 
> Hi guys, Any info on the WS-13 ?


Need to keep close following of J-35 project. It is using WS-13IPE.


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> And this is based on what?


Open source information. Can not say how to find it because this information may be hidden in future if it is known all around the web

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## LKJ86

CJ1000A 




Via @lyman2003 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S & WS-10







Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Polestar 2

Figaro said:


> Are there any updates on when Y-20s will be produced with WS-20s? It doesn't make sense to me that J-20, J-10, Chinese flankers have all switched to the WS-10 in mass production but the Y-20 is still relying on the old low bypass WS-18s. Especially with the WS-15 and WS-10 progress, it doesn't make sense why this hasn't occurred yet.


How do you know WS-18 is low by pass? It looks like DKP30 engine, doesnt mean it performs like it. With new metallurgy, WS-18 spec is definitely better than old Russian engine. Plus, PLAAF seems very satisfy for WS-18 that they continue using this engine with very slow induction phase of WS-20.


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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> How do you know WS-18 is low by pass? It looks like DKP30 engine, doesnt mean it performs like it. With new metallurgy, WS-18 spec is definitely better than old Russian engine. Plus, PLAAF seems very satisfy for WS-18 that they continue using this engine with very slow induction phase of WS-20.




As it seems, all operational Y-20s so far are using original D-30KP-2 engines


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10S & WS-10
> View attachment 888889
> View attachment 888890
> 
> Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## siegecrossbow

Important component in Chinese turbofan engine reaches a lifespan of 50,000 hours.



https://weibo.com/1240246333/Mdl9dp3HX?layerid=4831795595972457














Component in question.

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## LKJ86

Via @天空菌 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @机飞弹打_航空航天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @UNIFORM_JOHN from Weibo





Via @环球时报 from Weibo





Via @新蜜蜂alex182 from Weibo

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## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589316692831772672

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## LKJ86

Via @萌虎鲸 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

WS-10 & J-10B




Via CCTV 7

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## LKJ86

Via @捣蛋就捣蛋 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

WS-10 & J-15




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Finally...
J-10B/C/S, J-11B/BS/BH/BSH, J-16/D, J-20, and J-15 have equipped with WS-10 engines.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Finally...
> J-10B/C/S, J-11B/BS/BH/BSH, J-16/D, J-20, and J-15 have equipped with WS-10 engines.




Indeed ... so eventually - similar to the re-engined J-10AS we've seen a few weeks ago - a hint that SAC is at least testing them. 
To be sure it is converting all operational J-15s to WS-10 is IMO too early yet.


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## LKJ86

WS-10 & J-15




Via @Oneninety from Weibo


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## Polestar 2

WS-20 engine spec


----------



## aliaselin

Just review local production of AI-322（WS-17）yesterday. It began for small production from the end of 2019, and mass production from early 2021

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## Dungeness

aliaselin said:


> *Just review local production of AI-322（WS-17）yesterday.* It began for small production from the end of 2019, and mass production from early 2021



wow! The ones used on Hongdu JL-10. So current production of JL-10 are equipped with domestic engines?

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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Just review local production of AI-322（WS-17）yesterday. It began for small production from the end of 2019, and mass production from early 2021




Really? I never heard about local production, at least no proof. What’s your source?


----------



## aliaselin

Dungeness said:


> wow! The ones used on Hongdu JL-10. So current production of JL-10 are equipped with domestic engines?


Before the Russo-Ukrainian war, it is from 3 sources: Motor Sich, Salut and Liyang; or at least some important components are imported abroad. I think Motor Sich has been kicked out from the supply chain now.


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Really? I never heard about local production, at least no proof. What’s your source?


Liyang Wechat.
I can share that one article is on 2020/01/29, you can find 4 others by yourself


----------



## Dungeness

aliaselin said:


> Before the Russo-Ukrainian war, it is from 3 sources: Motor Sich, Salut and Liyang; or at least some important components are imported abroad. I think Motor Sich has been kicked out from the supply chain now.



I thought it was originally 331‘s WS-11 project.


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## aliaselin

Dungeness said:


> I thought it was originally 331‘s WS-11 project.


Absolutely NO


----------



## TopGun786

Still no news on Ws-15?


----------



## Deino

Finally officially confirmed!! 

A J-20 fitted with WS-15 has already taken its maiden flight. Apparently the speaker in that video is a famous academician from the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He is allegedly specialized in turbofan engines.

Video by @星辰大海SLC on Bilibili.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602687065749131271

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Finally officially confirmed!!
> 
> A J-20 fitted with WS-15 has already taken its maiden flight. Apparently the speaker in that video is a famous academician from the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He is allegedly specialized in turbofan engines.
> 
> Video by @星辰大海SLC on Bilibili.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602687065749131271








2022 中国航空产业大会主旨报告会-刘大响院士汇报《航空发动机和大飞机发展新机遇，江西航空产业发展的思考和建议》_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


-, 视频播放量 2670、弹幕量 8、点赞数 146、投硬币枚数 51、收藏人数 150、转发人数 93, 视频作者 星辰大海SLC, 作者简介 星辰大海s，相关视频：杨奎松：国际大背景下看中共成功之道，从难产的昌九高铁，看环江西现象，杨奎松：冷战背景下外交策略，航空发动机压气机基本原理，2022南昌飞行大会-红鹰表演队11月26日央视新闻直播完整版，V2500 压气机放气系统and燃油系统初步，机器人讲解-奇瑞1.5L自吸混动专用发动机正式下线，2022南昌飞行大会-俄罗斯传奇表演队卡帕尼娜XA42单机表演，杨奎松：战时国共交涉谈判的由来问题与结果，2021电动航空和eVTOL进展回顾




www.bilibili.com





I think people who understand Mandarin Chinese should listen to the whole presentation. A lot of valuable information about turbofan engine/large body aircraft. The fact that Liu Daxiang is so optimistic about engine progress (that China will be first tier in 3 to 5 years) is very encouraging, considering the fact that he is always very forthcoming about shortcomings of China's turbofan development process. If I recall correctly he leaked in his book some of the problems encountered during the WS-15 development process (fan blade failure/engine explosion) and he was especially critical of AVIC's management style. I guess the process has been refined/reformed in the seven years following 2015.

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Finally officially confirmed!!
> 
> A J-20 fitted with WS-15 has already taken its maiden flight. Apparently the speaker in that video is a famous academician from the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He is allegedly specialized in turbofan engines.
> 
> Video by @星辰大海SLC on Bilibili.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602687065749131271


He is the chief engineer of WS-15 at pre-research stage.


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## S10

Deino said:


> Finally officially confirmed!!
> 
> A J-20 fitted with WS-15 has already taken its maiden flight. Apparently the speaker in that video is a famous academician from the Chinese Academy of Engineering. He is allegedly specialized in turbofan engines.
> 
> Video by @星辰大海SLC on Bilibili.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602687065749131271


I don't think that translation is correct. He said "it's not in service yet, but it made maiden flight already".

I don't think they would use J-20 as a test bed.

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## siegecrossbow

S10 said:


> I don't think that translation is correct. He said "it's not in service yet, but it made maiden flight already".
> 
> I don't think they would use J-20 as a test bed.



But we’ve seen photos of a J-20 prototype (2016) flying with a new engine last year. There are also numerous eyewitness accounts noting the sound is very different.

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## S10

siegecrossbow said:


> But we’ve seen photos of a J-20 prototype (2016) flying with a new engine last year. There are also numerous eyewitness accounts noting the sound is very different.


I suspect that's WS-10C rather than WS-15.


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## GiantPanda

S10 said:


> I suspect that's WS-10C rather than WS-15.



Different petals count than WS-10.


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## S10

GiantPanda said:


> Different petals count than WS-10.


That might just be explained by a new nozzle.


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## Dungeness

S10 said:


> That might just be explained by a new nozzle.



".....这个发动机现在还没有装备，但我们已经*首飞*了“。 "首飞” is usually associated with "目标飞行器“


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## siegecrossbow

S10 said:


> I suspect that's WS-10C rather than WS-15.



WS-10C is already fielded in large numbers.


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